00:00:08 ◼ ► From Relay FM, this is Upgrade, episode 479. It is October 2nd, 2023. This episode is brought to you by
00:00:18 ◼ ► Squarespace and Ooni Pizza Ovens. My name is Mike Hurley, I'm joined by Jason Snell. Hi, Jason!
00:00:24 ◼ ► It is me. I just like that pause. It makes me wonder, like, what is this upgrade? Is this
00:00:30 ◼ ► something else? We don't know. It's drama. I love it. Sometimes the introductions, they're just,
00:00:35 ◼ ► you know, they come into me on the fly, like, I don't really know what is gonna happen next,
00:00:39 ◼ ► you know? And that was it. I took a pause. We're into October already. I think that was what
00:00:45 ◼ ► actually made me pause. I kind of can't believe that we're in the fourth quarter of this year.
00:00:50 ◼ ► It's, yeah, it is surprising. And also September has, like, 60 days in it, right? That's how that
00:00:56 ◼ ► works. That's not over around these parts. We'll talk about that in a minute. September begins at
00:01:00 ◼ ► the end of August and ends at the beginning of October. That's September. I have a Snell Talk
00:01:06 ◼ ► question for you. It comes from Mark. Mark asks, "Jason, do you decorate your home for Halloween?
00:01:13 ◼ ► If you do, when do you put up and take down these decorations?" I don't. Okay. Halloween,
00:01:23 ◼ ► not my favorite, honestly. Not my favorite. I do have, though, there's one decoration that I do
00:01:30 ◼ ► have. I have the, I have a tube man, you know, one of those air dancer tube men, and he's orange.
00:01:48 ◼ ► LookAtMe.com. It's literally, "Look over here." Something like that. And he is my Halloween
00:01:56 ◼ ► decoration. So on Halloween or whenever the trick-or-treaters are out, because we live in an,
00:02:04 ◼ ► trick-or-treating. It was just not a thing. And now I live in the prime neighborhood where
00:02:09 ◼ ► everybody in my town comes for trick-or-treating, and we have to buy huge bags of it, and I hate it.
00:02:16 ◼ ► I hate it. Sorry, people who love Halloween. I hate it. I don't want the people to come to the
00:02:20 ◼ ► door. I really would like to be one of those people who turns off all the lights and hides,
00:02:25 ◼ ► but you just can't. So instead we do it, and I'm also married to somebody who doesn't want to do
00:02:29 ◼ ► that. So, but my, what I do is I put out my tube man. I put him out, sometimes on the roof,
00:02:39 ◼ ► sometimes on the front lawn, or the front, it's not a lawn anymore, the front native plants garden.
00:02:46 ◼ ► And you know what? The tube man delights the children. Delights the children. They love the
00:02:55 ◼ ► tube man. And so that's my contribution to Halloween, as well as paying for bags of crappy,
00:03:13 ◼ ► and then you can get these little sort of silk tube men separately. It's a whole ecosystem of
00:03:23 ◼ ► Yes, it is. It is. What a service that is too. We salute you, tube man. Thank you for your service.
00:03:31 ◼ ► So Santa, anyway, Santa goes up around Christmas, and I do tube Santa for a little bit. But the
00:03:37 ◼ ► primary objective of tube man, actually the primary objective of having a tube man is that
00:03:42 ◼ ► my daughter and I always talked about wanting a tube man, and I finally bought one. But after that,
00:03:47 ◼ ► it was, "Won't he be great for Halloween?" And it turns out, he is great for Halloween.
00:03:57 ◼ ► Honestly, Mike, there is like an Uncle Sam tube man that I'm thinking of buying for the 4th of July.
00:04:21 ◼ ► Who wouldn't? And I love snow talk questions because of that. If you would like to send in
00:04:29 ◼ ► a question of your own for us to open a future episode of Upgrade, go to upgradefeedback.com.
00:04:34 ◼ ► So we mentioned that September continues. So this is the final call for Relay FM for St. Jude.
00:04:49 ◼ ► So that's the final day of the campaign. We have currently raised, as of recording right now,
00:04:57 ◼ ► $742,000, which is truly incredible. We have obliterated our previous goal, which is $706,000,
00:05:28 ◼ ► staring down 3 million lifetime at this point. It's like $50,000 away. So difficult, but not
00:05:39 ◼ ► impossible by the end of the week. So what I would say right now is if you have yet to donate,
00:05:56 ◼ ► One of the most important parts of being a patient at St. Jude is having the space to not just be a
00:06:02 ◼ ► patient, but to be a kid. This year, St. Jude opened the Family Commons, a 45,000 square foot
00:06:08 ◼ ► space just for families. It is a treatment and clinical staff-free floor of the hospital,
00:06:18 ◼ ► about after feedback from parents of St. Jude who were looking for a space on campus where
00:06:23 ◼ ► families could get downtime together between their clinical appointments to have a sense of normalcy.
00:06:47 ◼ ► sure that no child dies from cancer. That is St. Jude's goal. And with the donations from
00:06:53 ◼ ► listeners like you, we get one step closer to that day, one cure closer, one child closer.
00:07:05 ◼ ► kids of St. Jude. It's why we continue to come back year after year and ask you, our listeners,
00:07:10 ◼ ► to help. So please go to stjude.org/relay. You can donate. You can find out more there.
00:07:16 ◼ ► So I'm also going to take this as an opportunity to mention the things that you could otherwise
00:07:20 ◼ ► be missing out on if you have not yet made a donation. If you make an individual gift of $60
00:07:25 ◼ ► or more, you will receive in a few weeks time a digital bundle of Relay FM wallpapers and an
00:07:35 ◼ ► in collaboration with our friend Jelly as well, put together all the art for us this year.
00:07:41 ◼ ► Donors who make an individual gift of $100 or more get all of that and a sticker pack featuring a
00:07:47 ◼ ► bunch of designs themed around the campaign. If you want to set up a fundraiser of your own,
00:07:52 ◼ ► there's still time to do this. You could set up a fundraiser. You could share it with your friends,
00:08:02 ◼ ► challenge coin of the campaign. I actually have one. We have them at the podcast. They're awesome.
00:08:07 ◼ ► If you raise $250 or more, you will receive an incredible desk mat. Now you can just make a
00:08:13 ◼ ► donation to a campaign that you set up for yourself if you want to. The top 50 fundraisers at the end
00:08:17 ◼ ► of the campaign will also receive a limited edition Relay FM for St. Jude tote bag, which is super cool.
00:08:23 ◼ ► Please go to stjude.org/relay to donate and find out more. If you do make a donation of your own,
00:08:29 ◼ ► please click the blue search employer button on the donation summary page. You can check if your
00:08:33 ◼ ► employer offers a matching gift program. If you've done this and you haven't heard back about it,
00:08:38 ◼ ► please check your email because you get an email with details for how to get things credited to
00:08:42 ◼ ► our campaign total. I know there's a lot of information here, but I really want to make
00:08:46 ◼ ► sure that we get all of this to you before the campaign ends. This is the last time that we'll
00:08:50 ◼ ► be talking about it for this year. Please go to stjude.org/relay. St. Jude won't stop until no
00:08:57 ◼ ► child dies from cancer. And with your support, we'll be one step closer to that day. One cure
00:09:01 ◼ ► closer, one child closer. This month and every month, let's cure childhood cancer together.
00:09:07 ◼ ► And now it's October. Yeah, I guess for us it is October now. I guess that's how that works.
00:09:14 ◼ ► Turn the page. We have like a funny thing that's happened. Due to a shipping error from a shipping
00:09:25 ◼ ► company, a selection of international parcels of our Summer of Fun merchandise went missing,
00:09:32 ◼ ► including mine. If I could quote, I'll erase some of the details, but if I could quote from our
00:09:40 ◼ ► contact in the Cotton Bureau, "After investigating Carrier, it eventually advised us that they have
00:09:48 ◼ ► officially lost 15 packages, including one that was supposed to go to Mike. They have no idea
00:09:53 ◼ ► where they are. If we ever get them back, it won't be soon. This is exceptionally rare and they told
00:10:00 ◼ ► us they identified the issue and fixed it. Now when this came up in one of our discords, I think
00:10:07 ◼ ► somebody suggested like, okay, the driver that like drove their truck off a ledge or off a cliff
00:10:15 ◼ ► or something like that has been relieved of their duties or left the truck somewhere and came back
00:10:21 ◼ ► to find it overturned, empty and on fire has been let go. I like what Zach has proposed in discord,
00:10:27 ◼ ► that it is a Summer of Fun heist. I like it. I like it. A big, big heist. Anyway, Carrier says
00:10:35 ◼ ► you're not getting it or if you are getting it, it will be a very long time from now. So what I'm
00:10:40 ◼ ► happy about though is that they have said that the carrier did realize it was their problem and they
00:10:45 ◼ ► fixed the problem. Like that makes me happy, right? At least we think that we fixed it. This
00:10:50 ◼ ► particular problem will never happen again. Again, that's because Jerry has been let go.
00:11:00 ◼ ► Cotton Bureau with your merchandise in it, you can thank the Upgradients for having solved this for
00:11:04 ◼ ► you. I guess. So to make sure that everyone, including me, gets the Summer of Fun shirts
00:11:11 ◼ ► that they ordered, we've reopened the campaigns of some of this stuff. Amazing. So what this allows
00:11:17 ◼ ► us to just with the way that things work at Cotton Bureau is an easy way to put it through.
00:11:21 ◼ ► But it also means if you missed out on a wonderful summer t-shirt, you have another chance. And we've
00:11:26 ◼ ► also used this as an opportunity to bring back the ever excellent upgrade hoodie, which has a
00:11:31 ◼ ► wonderful embroidered patch and a secret Upgradient seal screen print on the inside. So these are all
00:11:44 ◼ ► ever present excellent selection of on demand t-shirts that you can go and check out at any time
00:11:48 ◼ ► over at upgradeyourwardrobe.com. So yeah, and the hood, the hoodie, I beseech you, this is the hoodie
00:11:55 ◼ ► doesn't go on sale that often. It is here in the Northern Hemisphere getting toward the cooler
00:11:59 ◼ ► months, the hoodie is back. And it does have the special secret screen print on the inside on top
00:12:05 ◼ ► of everything else. I'm wearing my Thunderbolt Doc shirt right now, Mike, which you don't have.
00:12:09 ◼ ► I don't have one of those. I'm wearing my Room Around Us t-shirt. Ah, that's nice. Which people
00:12:13 ◼ ► can buy at any time. I look forward to joining you in time for Christmas. That's nice. I did wear
00:12:20 ◼ ► this on the podcast-a-thon. So you got to see it. And that was that moment where, because we knew
00:12:24 ◼ ► about this already, where you said, oh, so that's what that t-shirt looks like. Because I had been
00:12:29 ◼ ► paying a time, I'd been like, I sent an email to Conbry, I was like, did this, what happened to
00:12:34 ◼ ► this? And I think that was one of the things they heard from a couple of people. They started their
00:12:40 ◼ ► investigations, and now it has opened up one more opportunity for you to buy this merchandise,
00:12:45 ◼ ► if you would like. Yeah, yeah. This happened on the Incomparable 2, by the way. So we had a bunch
00:12:51 ◼ ► of Incomparable shirts that also never reached their destination. So yeah, it's great. I have
00:12:57 ◼ ► quite a lot of follow-up today that I would like to talk to you about. It feels like we always have
00:13:02 ◼ ► this episode, right? Where after all of the things that have been going on, we suddenly end up with
00:13:09 ◼ ► just a huge amount of footnotes and follow-up. So here we are. First, I actually would just like to
00:13:15 ◼ ► ask you a question. Have you made a decision about your personal iPhone? I haven't made a final
00:13:20 ◼ ► decision yet. It's still in the box that it was shipped in. But I haven't done a transfer because
00:13:26 ◼ ► I've got, I still haven't, by the way, I still haven't, has Jason made an iPhone review? The
00:13:31 ◼ ► answer, no, I haven't. I'm still thinking about it. I think this week. I'm still thinking about
00:13:37 ◼ ► it. Well, I mean, what do I say now? It's been all this time, right? 'Cause I get it after,
00:13:41 ◼ ► I got it during the Podcast-a-thon, everybody got their iPhones. So I have to think about it. It's
00:13:47 ◼ ► gonna be more like an essay about an iPhone 15 is what it'll be. So I haven't done that. So I'm
00:13:52 ◼ ► still using all the review units. I went to the Cal football game this weekend, took a bunch of
00:13:55 ◼ ► shots with the 5X camera. Whoa, that 5X camera on the Pro Max. It's real nice. Right now, I'm
00:14:02 ◼ ► leaning toward actually keeping the phone I ordered, a 15 Pro in Midnight Blue, because I do
00:14:08 ◼ ► like the Midnight Blue. I also like the Natural. In holding the Pro Max as much as I love that 5X,
00:14:15 ◼ ► I don't want a phone that big. I just don't. I could use it. And in fact, I've tried to,
00:14:22 ◼ ► so we talked about this when we were in Memphis. I've tried to narrow in to why I said it's not
00:14:30 ◼ ► that bad. And of course, then you, devil on my shoulder, were like, "In fact, it's good,
00:14:33 ◼ ► Jason. It's good." I think the fact that I run and walk the dog and all those things with the
00:14:42 ◼ ► Apple Watch has made my concerns about iPhone size a lot less relevant to me. Right? 'Cause one of my
00:14:52 ◼ ► reasons for getting a mini and wanting the smaller phone is that I hate going out and having the
00:15:08 ◼ ► weight in my pocket when I'm just walking around in the neighborhood. And that's gone. Right?
00:15:12 ◼ ► The only time I bring the iPhone with me now is when I put on the big boy pants and I go somewhere.
00:15:20 ◼ ► Right? I don't, if I'm just walking the dog, I don't bother. And that means size is less of a
00:15:28 ◼ ► concern because in those places where I really need to not be burdened, I am totally unburdened
00:15:35 ◼ ► now because I just use the Apple Watch. So I think that's the reason behind it. But having
00:15:40 ◼ ► carried it around for the review and taken the shots, the beautiful shots of that 5X camera,
00:15:47 ◼ ► I don't think it's for me. I think it's just too big. I think my hands don't fit on it very well.
00:15:53 ◼ ► And I think it's a bridge too far, but I will admit to being tempted by it. And I will admit
00:16:01 ◼ ► that that 5X camera is spectacular. So I think what's really happening is if I'm any indication,
00:16:08 ◼ ► a lot of people are gonna be more tempted and that's probably the, my guess is the percentage
00:16:18 ◼ ► the smaller phone gets that higher zoom because that would be amazing. But that's sort of where
00:16:22 ◼ ► I am right now, but I've got a little time to decide. I'm gonna wait until my iPhone review
00:16:33 ◼ ► international orange on my Apple Watch could be held up to the Golden Gate Bridge, which is also
00:16:38 ◼ ► painted international orange. Friend of the show, Ian wrote in to say, fun fact, international
00:16:44 ◼ ► orange is not just one color, but rather three. So we should start calling it international
00:16:50 ◼ ► oranges then, clearly. Yes. There is aerospace, Golden Gate Bridge, and engineering. Golden Gate
00:16:58 ◼ ► Bridge, international orange. The three genders. Aerospace, Golden Gate Bridge, and engineering.
00:17:04 ◼ ► They're not even, they're not even matching. That's so weird. That's like, that's like,
00:17:10 ◼ ► I'm gonna provide you with three options. There's running, fish, and John. What? What makes it worse?
00:17:21 ◼ ► So the link is in the show notes to the Wikipedia page. Yeah. Is that they are all just called
00:17:27 ◼ ► international orange. And then in brackets, either aerospace, Golden Gate Bridge, or engineering.
00:17:39 ◼ ► they wanted to paint the Golden Gate Bridge international orange and messed up and then
00:17:47 ◼ ► I'm going to invent a narrative here, which is I wonder if the Golden Gate Bridge was painted
00:17:51 ◼ ► international orange. And then they said, we need some other international oranges that aren't that
00:17:58 ◼ ► color. And so they expanded it. But the Golden Gate Bridge is so synonymous with international
00:18:03 ◼ ► orange that they said, okay, that's that one. Yes, that is international orange. But we need
00:18:09 ◼ ► an engineering one and an aerospace one. So we'd added those two. We needed to lighten it up a
00:18:12 ◼ ► little bit for airplanes or whatever. Well, you say that, but I've got to continue and it's going
00:18:17 ◼ ► to unfortunately prove that wrong, I think. So Golden Gate Bridge is slightly more red. This
00:18:21 ◼ ► carries on from Ian. More red than what people often picture when they think of international
00:18:34 ◼ ► to precisely describe a high visibility color to the growing list of military equipment contractors
00:18:41 ◼ ► most often seen on today's radio masts. Wait, when was the Golden Gate Bridge built? 1939? Well,
00:18:48 ◼ ► who knows? The history of international orange will remain a mystery, but there were three colors.
00:18:59 ◼ ► Apple Watch Ultra? I think it's more close to international orange aerospace, but I'll have
00:19:06 ◼ ► to wait until I go and look at it. I'm looking at Wikipedia entry and looking at the button on the
00:19:22 ◼ ► you know? Why not? Why not? Okay. We'll just look, Mike, the important thing here is that
00:19:34 ◼ ► about people being upset about me not knowing the exact dates of World War II, you know?
00:19:40 ◼ ► Yeah. Also, it's confusing because it was specified in '56, but they started using it in World War II.
00:19:44 ◼ ► So that's another example where they picked a color and then later they said, "Yeah, yeah,
00:19:47 ◼ ► yeah. That's international orange. It's red." But sure, we'll call that international orange too,
00:19:53 ◼ ► after the fact. So that's, yeah, exactly. So we spoke for a long, many episodes quite a while
00:20:03 ◼ ► ago about you trying to get a smart lock for your home that had home key support and you settled on
00:20:12 ◼ ► the Schlag, Schlage? Schlage? Schlage. Let's say Schlage. And I just saw something on MacRumors
00:20:23 ◼ ► that Yale has debuted two new smart locks that feature… Yeah. And I saw some people in the Six
00:20:29 ◼ ► Colors member Discord talked about this too, who took, who got them. It is, so I've got the, yeah,
00:20:35 ◼ ► I've got the Schlag lock and that's how they pronounce it, you know, as a German student,
00:20:45 ◼ ► Yale is what I had before. What I like about the Yale locks is that they're almost featureless.
00:20:51 ◼ ► They're like these little dark kind of portals and they're flat and they sit on the door and then you
00:20:57 ◼ ► can either touch them and put in a number pad code. The number pad lights up, or you can hold
00:21:03 ◼ ► your watch or phone up to the lock in this case now and they auto unlock based on the NFC chip.
00:21:10 ◼ ► And that's how home key works. Great. The Schlage lock that I've got, I don't like it quite as much.
00:21:16 ◼ ► It's kind of got like a frame around it and then the keypad is sort of indented. It's got a,
00:21:25 ◼ ► And you can use a physical lock or physical key with it to turn the lock, which Lauren was telling
00:21:31 ◼ ► me she likes that because there's this sort of like backup of like, you could just use the key
00:21:36 ◼ ► if you want to. And she likes that. It's fine. I mean, my thought is it also means that it's
00:21:44 ◼ ► easier to pick the lock, but I mean, really at that point, somebody's going to bring it to your
00:21:48 ◼ ► house. This Yale one, there is a key option. Like, so you can have it key free. Yeah. And the key
00:21:54 ◼ ► free, I think they have like a little contacts for like a battery. So you can wake it up and
00:22:01 ◼ ► you can jumpstart your lock if you need to. So anyway, it's nice. And in fact, I might prefer
00:22:08 ◼ ► this design. And if I didn't already have one, I might buy this one. However, and Yale's not
00:22:14 ◼ ► going to like me saying this, but it's just, I have to call it like it is. My door doesn't fit
00:22:18 ◼ ► exactly right. It's not immaculate. It's a little bit off. And that means that sometimes, depending
00:22:25 ◼ ► on how the door has set, when it's closed by a person, the bolt comes out and it strikes the
00:22:32 ◼ ► strike plate a little bit. And it has to kind of like push and essentially move the door a very
00:22:37 ◼ ► small amount in order to get it all the way through. So there's a little, sometimes a little
00:22:41 ◼ ► extra force that's required. And in my experience, the Yale, the last generation Yale Smart Lock,
00:22:49 ◼ ► the motor was not very strong and it would often fail and it was not great. And I did a lot of
00:22:57 ◼ ► rejiggering to my door to try to get it to work better. But the fact was that there were certain
00:23:01 ◼ ► times when it would fail and then beep loudly and it was not great. I have not had a failure like
00:23:08 ◼ ► that with the Schlage lock. It has a much stronger motor. It did have a physical failure in the,
00:23:16 ◼ ► in part of the bolt housing. And I called them and they said, "Oh, sorry, that does happen sometimes
00:23:21 ◼ ► with our locks and we are sending one to you free right now." And I replaced it and it has worked
00:23:27 ◼ ► great. But what I will say, so good customer service there. It was a failure, but good customer
00:23:31 ◼ ► service. So that's my only other takeaway is like ultimately leaving aside the design and the
00:23:36 ◼ ► implementation, and I really like home key locks. I think they're really nice. I have gotten used to
00:23:39 ◼ ► touching my Apple watch up to the door. I think it's great. But my experience has been that the
00:23:47 ◼ ► Schlage locks have a stronger motor and that matters to me because it means that they're more
00:23:51 ◼ ► likely to succeed. Whereas the Yale lock was just weak enough that sometimes it would try to close
00:23:59 ◼ ► the lock and fail and be like, "I can't do it. Beep, beep." And that's not a great feature in
00:24:06 ◼ ► a lock. It's not so good. No, not so great. That's not so helpful. Tim Cook has been talking about
00:24:13 ◼ ► the Vision Pro a bunch over the last couple of weeks. He's been doing lots of media because of
00:24:18 ◼ ► the iPhone and other reasons that I'll get to in a minute, but he's been talking a lot about the
00:24:22 ◼ ► Vision Pro. It seems like wherever he can. And there's a couple of things that I thought were
00:24:27 ◼ ► interesting or just funny to me. So Tim Hardwick at MacRumors was reporting on a CBS interview. So
00:24:34 ◼ ► Tim Cook told CBS Sunday Morning that he watched the entire third season of Ted Lasso on his Vision
00:24:40 ◼ ► Pro. Which just seems like a funny thing. That's just very funny to me. It's like an unnecessary
00:24:46 ◼ ► flex. The entire season? Well, there's one episode you didn't watch on an iPad, Tim. And also,
00:24:54 ◼ ► I just love the double promo in one sentence. He didn't watch just a show. He only watched the
00:25:02 ◼ ► third season of Apple's favorite Ted Lasso. I'm surprised he didn't also watch the debut premiere
00:25:07 ◼ ► of The Morning Show on it as well. And Tim also said to CBS Sunday Morning that it's still on
00:25:13 ◼ ► track for launching "early next year," whatever that means. And also talking to David Phelan at
00:25:21 ◼ ► The Independent. This is a quote. Tim Cook says Vision Pro has become part of his nightly routine,
00:25:31 ◼ ► There are huge differences in how people look at it, depending on if they read about it or
00:25:36 ◼ ► if they've actually tried it. He says, "I believe even more about how profound spatial computing is.
00:25:42 ◼ ► When you've tried it, it's an aha moment. And you only have a few of those in a lifetime."
00:25:46 ◼ ► Now, I agree with that second part. I think we both do. The thing that annoys me about this quote is,
00:25:52 ◼ ► why did he not ask him about the nightly routine? What does that mean? What does that mean?
00:25:56 ◼ ► I saw somebody, a commentator, I think maybe it was Nick here, who said, "Well, while it's
00:26:03 ◼ ► interesting to say if you've tried it, you know, it is also worth pointing out that the only people
00:26:08 ◼ ► who've tried it are people Apple allowed to try it." It's like, okay, it is true. That is, just
00:26:14 ◼ ► keep in mind that it's a very specific group. But I do think, and you and I both had this experience,
00:26:19 ◼ ► certainly makes more of an impact to actually experience it. And it's very hard to convey that
00:26:31 ◼ ► we were all so many incredibly constrained demo of it. And that's not quite the same as going
00:26:38 ◼ ► through a nightly routine. What I take away from this is, look, I think Tim Cook dog foods,
00:26:44 ◼ ► a bunch of stuff, right? I really do. I think he uses new iPads. I think he can use it. I think he
00:26:48 ◼ ► wants to be, even at the CEO level, he wants to be familiar with and understand the products that
00:26:54 ◼ ► Apple's making so that he can talk about it, but also that he stays connected to the products.
00:26:58 ◼ ► It's a product company, it really, I mean, and services and software, but like it matters. And
00:27:03 ◼ ► so I like that he seems to be really engaged with this product because he should be. And he isn't
00:27:09 ◼ ► always as engaged with products, right? That's the sense we get is he's an operations guy,
00:27:14 ◼ ► he's the CEO, he's got other people to do this. He's not Steve Jobs. But in this product, I
00:27:18 ◼ ► suspect like the Apple Watch, it is more important to him and he's spending more time with it. And I
00:27:26 ◼ ► like that, right? 'Cause he doesn't necessarily have to do this, but I think it's a good thing.
00:27:30 ◼ ► And I would imagine that Tim Cook using Vision Pro every day probably has helped the progress of that
00:27:38 ◼ ► product development, right? That Tim Cook is using it and seeing where it works and seeing where it
00:27:44 ◼ ► doesn't. And if he's in a meeting, he can be like, "I don't know, I tried that and this happened."
00:27:50 ◼ ► And like, that's a much more informed perspective from the CEO. I think it's good. But yes, I do
00:27:54 ◼ ► wonder, is it like, is he brushing his teeth in augmented reality while Ted Lasso plays in the
00:27:59 ◼ ► corner or like, I don't know. - Is he getting like his nightly cream all over the lens by accident?
00:28:05 ◼ ► Like what's happening over there? - Is this where he drinks his smoothie while he's hanging in back
00:28:11 ◼ ► in an armchair watching an Auburn football game projected on the wall? I don't know. Tell us more,
00:28:20 ◼ ► Tim. Tell us more about Tim Cook after dark with the Vision Pro. - Well, Jason, someone might have
00:28:28 ◼ ► gotten this out of him because old boys, our friend, been busy. So you may remember last year
00:28:32 ◼ ► around this time, Tim took a tour of Europe and he's been on it again. So we're back on the
00:28:38 ◼ ► upgrade podcast with your annual recap of the tour of Tim Cook as it is to this date. - Where in the
00:28:46 ◼ ► world is Tim Cook? - Well, I'm gonna let you know. - I'm working on it. All right. Okay. - He started
00:28:52 ◼ ► by attending a photo gallery show of images taken on iPhones in New York. He then went across the
00:28:59 ◼ ► Atlantic to attend a Real Madrid training session and later a match, obviously, in Spain. He had a
00:29:06 ◼ ► dinner with a chef who "uses the iPhone 15 Pro Max in their creative process" and another who is
00:29:13 ◼ ► championing sustainability. We're still in Spain, by the way. He then attended a musical performance
00:29:19 ◼ ► at an Apple store in Madrid. He visited a school that uses iPhones for photography in their classes.
00:29:25 ◼ ► He then visited the Procreate developers. - Nice. I didn't know they were in Spain. - I'm not sure
00:29:32 ◼ ► where they are, actually. I didn't write that part down. This is still part of the Spanish legs,
00:29:36 ◼ ► so I'm assuming that they're in Spain. - Or near Spain. - I'm about to tell you something else that
00:29:40 ◼ ► I know he did in Spain, so I'm assuming that they're still in Spain. He then spent time with
00:29:46 ◼ ► a Spanish Paralympic swimmer who was wearing an Apple watch and they made a video about it.
00:29:50 ◼ ► Tim then leaves Spain to meet with chip company NXP, who supplies parts to Apple. He used this as
00:29:59 ◼ ► an opportunity to highlight their sustainability work on decarbonizing. Quote, Tim says, "NXP's
00:30:06 ◼ ► chips are in many of our products, including our new carbon neutral Apple watch lineup."
00:30:11 ◼ ► So I will pause here for a moment because now it feels like, genuinely, there's just a pattern for
00:30:18 ◼ ► this because last time when he did this, he was in Japan, I think, with Sony and said similarly,
00:30:27 ◼ ► we have used Sony's chips forever. And it's like, Apple never talk about this, but now they've done
00:30:32 ◼ ► it two times in two years on a Tim tour that he goes to somewhere and calls them out specifically
00:30:38 ◼ ► as a great partner. And it's like, they never, ever, ever talk about this stuff otherwise. So
00:30:49 ◼ ► which is about as far away from Spain as you can get. - Well, I can't explain that. - I think it's
00:30:53 ◼ ► literally like the other side of the globe from that, but maybe there were some- - They may have
00:30:57 ◼ ► been in Spain. - Procreate team in Spain. - Procreate is so huge, but here's the thing.
00:31:01 ◼ ► If I follow this chronologically, as I assume that is it, right? He was still in the Spain
00:31:13 ◼ ► using new Apple technology we don't know about, burrowed straight through the core of the earth
00:31:22 ◼ ► - I recall from my trip to New Zealand that Spain is actually on the exact opposite, the antipode of
00:31:29 ◼ ► New Zealand. So it's in the ballpark of Tasmania. It's not that far off. I'm just saying, ask the
00:31:34 ◼ ► mole people the truth about Apple's lava burrowing. Anyway, they were probably in Spain. - I don't
00:31:40 ◼ ► think I wanna do that. - They were probably in Spain. - I don't think I wanna do that. - Spain,
00:31:44 ◼ ► yeah, yeah. - Tim then met with developers in the Netherlands who make various, like a game studio
00:31:51 ◼ ► and a cycling app, obviously it's in the Netherlands. He also spent time of a Dutch YouTuber.
00:31:56 ◼ ► - Great, love it. - Tim then went over to listen to some spatial audio music at a studio in
00:32:03 ◼ ► Copenhagen. - Of course he did. - He then, and this is another thing that happened last time,
00:32:08 ◼ ► another random Apple executive appears. And Tim visited a solar farm in Denmark with Lisa Jackson.
00:32:15 ◼ ► I love this, so in my mind, it's like, so Tim's off all over the place. And then like someone
00:32:20 ◼ ► else has to go, you know, 'cause we had Eddy Q last time. - At Oktoberfest, I was about to say,
00:32:28 ◼ ► are we sure that there isn't a thing we've missed here where Tim and Eddy had like tapas somewhere?
00:32:35 ◼ ► - Not yet. I don't know that the tour's over. - Okay. - Because we cap it off now with Tim coming
00:32:48 ◼ ► He just gets a whole bunch of little small plates and it's like the tapas and it's great. So I'm
00:32:52 ◼ ► sure he was like, Tim, Tim, I'm gonna order for you. It's gonna be great. That's in my mind.
00:32:56 ◼ ► That's my imagination. They went to the UK, you say? - Yep, here in the UK, he spent some time
00:33:00 ◼ ► with some British developers. He spent some time with some school children, which I thought was
00:33:04 ◼ ► adorable. And then met with the prince and princess of Wales to talk about the environment.
00:33:08 ◼ ► And in the images, it's something that like I realized I've not seen a lot of, which is Tim
00:33:13 ◼ ► cooking a suit. I feel like we don't see Tim in a suit very much. And I will say, I appreciate it
00:33:19 ◼ ► that you wore a suit. - To visit the prince of Wales? - Yeah. So that's how far we've gotten so far.
00:33:26 ◼ ► - He's not wearing a tie, but to be fair, William also not wearing a tie. - Yeah, it's like, you know,
00:33:30 ◼ ► they're like, it's like dressing up, but like, we're not gonna, you know, we're cool, you know?
00:33:34 ◼ ► That's the note that I get there. - Yeah. Did he go to Battersea? I assume he did. - Well, as a part of,
00:33:41 ◼ ► I move on now to my final piece of follow-up for you today. As part of Tim's press tour,
00:33:51 ◼ ► which I believe is the first time this has happened. And so Mike Hurley gets to tell you,
00:33:56 ◼ ► yes, this is what I saw. And it's stunning in there. Unbelievable. It is beautiful. - It looks
00:34:04 ◼ ► kind of like Apple Park in a way too, right? Where there's the, like an atrium and then there's the
00:34:08 ◼ ► various levels and it's all kind of open air. - It's all soft and round, right? But it's brick rather
00:34:13 ◼ ► than, I think it's like, I don't know what stone it is. It looks like limestone to me, but I don't
00:34:17 ◼ ► think it is. - It's magical Italian stone quarry from a very particular place in Italy only known
00:34:22 ◼ ► by Johnny Ive. - But, and so you get to say there, if you look, if you like go down the page,
00:34:33 ◼ ► Like, and they have these huge brick archways, which is like the atrium area. This is when I
00:34:39 ◼ ► went there and I was with one of the architects and I pointed up at the corners and said,
00:34:45 ◼ ► that's incredible. How do you do that? And he said to me, it's not real. And I don't really know what
00:34:50 ◼ ► that means, but it was a beautiful detail. And I guess you can take from that what you want,
00:34:55 ◼ ► because I've never seen brick curve like that. And I guess it turns out it isn't. And, but I
00:34:59 ◼ ► don't really know what that means. I don't really know what that means. - It's a piece. Well, I was,
00:35:04 ◼ ► we had this conversation long ago about like the ballpark in San Francisco has the brick and why
00:35:09 ◼ ► there isn't brick in San Francisco, because it crumbles and it's very bad in earthquakes.
00:35:12 ◼ ► And so you end up having the ballpark in San Francisco has a brick front because it wants
00:35:17 ◼ ► to feel old timey, but it's literally, there's a picture that when they were building it in the
00:35:20 ◼ ► San Francisco Chronicle of the little brick wall veneer being placed on it, right? It's not real.
00:35:33 ◼ ► kind of overlay. And it wouldn't surprise me if that's what they did here is there's the real
00:35:37 ◼ ► brick of the Battersea power station. And then there's the architectural brick molding that goes
00:35:44 ◼ ► in certain places. - I reckon it's brick up to a point and that's not real brick. And then it
00:35:49 ◼ ► tried, but like it seamlessly goes back to brick again. - They want to mix it in because it has to
00:35:54 ◼ ► fit in with the rest of the building. Yeah, that's what I suspect. - It is truly breathtaking in there
00:35:58 ◼ ► like, and I'm just happy that they've released some images now because like, wow, it's a facade.
00:36:04 ◼ ► - David Schaub reminds me the right word is not veneer. It is facade or cladding. And it says, sure.
00:36:13 ◼ ► Or maybe it's not brick at all, Mike. Okay. - This episode is brought to you by Squarespace.
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00:38:52 ◼ ► So I've got quite a few things from Ming-Chi Kuo today. You've been publishing some reports.
00:38:58 ◼ ► The first is about Kuo's expectations for the Vision Pro based on his understanding of the
00:39:06 ◼ ► supply chain. So we've got three items here. Item one, Ming-Chi Kuo is predicting a production
00:39:12 ◼ ► capacity of between 400,000 and 600,000 units in year one. This echoes numbers we've heard before,
00:39:22 ◼ ► previously about a million, but then there was a question of like, is that a million units or is
00:39:27 ◼ ► that a misunderstanding of a million displays being available, which would be half a million
00:39:33 ◼ ► units. And so I feel like we are coalescing now on this, like around half a million in year one.
00:39:40 ◼ ► We have no idea right now what that actually will mean in the sense of like the desire of people,
00:39:47 ◼ ► you know, like my assumption is half a million is not going to be enough. I don't know what you think.
00:39:53 ◼ ► I know. I think I, I suspect, I mean, you never know, but it feels to me like the price is there
00:40:00 ◼ ► in part to gate demand. And because they know they can't make that, they can't make so many.
00:40:04 ◼ ► So you want to price it so that it comes in the ballpark. I imagine these are going to be
00:40:08 ◼ ► backordered. Yeah. Like, yeah, it feels like, I mean, it is, it is possible that nobody wants
00:40:14 ◼ ► first-generation super expensive hardware, but I have a hard time. I just have a hard time believing
00:40:18 ◼ ► that given Apple's footprint, Apple selling half a million units of its newest platform in its first
00:40:26 ◼ ► year, it's a low bar, even for the price, even for what it is. I don't even, I think honestly,
00:40:31 ◼ ► like that idea of nobody wants that, I feel like nobody is in the realm of half a million units for
00:40:36 ◼ ► Apple. You know what I mean? Yeah. For Apple. Yeah, that's absolutely true. To say nobody,
00:40:45 ◼ ► it is almost nobody, which is a wild thing to say. This is a little sidebar here, but I'm curious
00:40:51 ◼ ► how the existence of the Vision Pro is going to affect the sale. So Meta introduced the Quest 3.
00:41:04 ◼ ► Unfortunately, yeah. So this is, I mean, it looks, looks really good. And I like my Quest 2. And I
00:41:08 ◼ ► thought about buying a Quest 3 because it's got, they upgraded the camera so that more like the
00:41:20 ◼ ► Whereas the, it was all sort of hacked into the Quest 2 and it wasn't very good. It's black and
00:41:25 ◼ ► white and grainy and bad, but they did sort of hack it in there after the fact. And I say this
00:41:31 ◼ ► just because the thing that's keeping me from potentially buying a Quest 3 literally is the
00:41:38 ◼ ► Vision Pro is just hanging out there. Right. Yeah. It's like, and I know I'm not, I'm not
00:41:42 ◼ ► a perfect example because I covered this for a living and I mean, I'm going to buy a Vision Pro
00:41:46 ◼ ► regardless because I need to for my work, but it is also like, like that's coming. Do I really want
00:41:54 ◼ ► to invest in any other platform? And I wonder how it'll go for meta and whether, whether the
00:42:00 ◼ ► Vision Pro is a thing that is so far out there and in terms of time and in terms of price,
00:42:06 ◼ ► that it doesn't matter for the people who might buy something like a Quest 3, or if it is a,
00:42:14 ◼ ► is designed for stuff that Vision Pro isn't designed for and that they're very different.
00:42:18 ◼ ► But I do wonder if Vision Pro being out there is going to suppress sales of other products in the
00:42:28 ◼ ► difference is so large. Cause what is the Quest 3 like $500? Yeah. Oh yeah. No, it's, it's, it's
00:42:36 ◼ ► not even close. Right. And yet like, but there was this question like, yeah, but am I going to buy a
00:42:41 ◼ ► headset now and then buy a headset again next year? Do you put it off? I don't know. I don't know. Or,
00:42:46 ◼ ► or, or does the detail I'll take the other side. Does the detail of the Vision Pro costing what it
00:42:52 ◼ ► costs, um, make it easier to write it off and say, Oh, well I was worried about Apple's new headset,
00:42:58 ◼ ► but now I'm not cause I'm not going to buy that. So I'll buy this, uh, this Quest 3. Also,
00:43:03 ◼ ► I do wonder a side note. Um, if the price of the Quest Pro is so much larger that when you
00:43:09 ◼ ► see the Quest 3, you're like, Oh, what a relief. That one is cheaper. I'll buy that one. I mean,
00:43:13 ◼ ► I feel like a fool for buying the Quest Pro cause like they said the best, the best feature about
00:43:17 ◼ ► the Quest Pro was the pass through. And they're saying that the Quest 3 is even better. So why
00:43:20 ◼ ► on earth did I need to pay three times the price then? Right. I don't really understand that. Um,
00:43:26 ◼ ► that one great cortex episode. That's why. Yeah. And I will say like for me personally,
00:43:32 ◼ ► it did make sense because we did a good episode of cortex and I think that it helped me with
00:43:38 ◼ ► talking about the vision pro as well. So like it was actually a very good investment. Uh, but if we
00:43:43 ◼ ► take that part out of it and just think about maybe other people that bought them, it is a bit,
00:43:53 ◼ ► Oh yeah, it's way better than the Quest Pro. So why on earth did you make this product?
00:43:57 ◼ ► Like it's very strange, very strange, weird outlier product. Like what would have happened
00:44:08 ◼ ► Like if the Quest Pro was a big success, what would have happened? I don't know. I think that
00:44:13 ◼ ► it may be that the Quest Pro was, um, that the Quest 3 is a recalibration because of the Quest
00:44:17 ◼ ► Pro not doing very well, but I don't know. Interesting. Um, actually this does tell right
00:44:24 ◼ ► back into Minshi Kuo's second point. Kuo believes Apple have changed course on a cheaper version of
00:44:35 ◼ ► product enough to make it viable for planned 2025 release. So the question that we've been asked a
00:44:42 ◼ ► million times, which is hard to answer, what will they cut out? Well, maybe Apple struggling with
00:44:47 ◼ ► that exact question themselves and they can't cut out enough. This is interesting in so many levels
00:44:52 ◼ ► because it's, it's the question of like, how do they define the platform? And, and I think it's
00:44:57 ◼ ► also interesting because they don't know, right? I think part of it is the challenge they're in now
00:45:02 ◼ ► is they're trying to plan the future of this product and it hasn't reached regular people yet.
00:45:06 ◼ ► And so they have to use their best judgment, but their best judgment is never going to meet
00:45:10 ◼ ► reality. It's never going to match what you can get from having it ship, shipping a product and
00:45:15 ◼ ► seeing what happens. And so it's very hard to build a roadmap when you don't know, um, because
00:45:21 ◼ ► if you're trying to pull out features from this product in order to make a cheaper version, right?
00:45:28 ◼ ► Certainly there are going to be arguments about what defines this, what defines the vision pro
00:45:33 ◼ ► and the vision OS experience that cannot be omitted from any version. And these are the
00:45:38 ◼ ► same arguments that they presumably have been having all along. And so presumably the people
00:45:43 ◼ ► who would win those arguments are the people who won those arguments before. And so without reality
00:45:50 ◼ ► to buttress the arguments of the people who might have a disagreement, you're going to end up with a
00:45:57 ◼ ► diff it's going to be difficult to compromise on your low end product. If you really have this,
00:46:01 ◼ ► um, idea in your head about what the vision OS experience is. So that makes it really hard.
00:46:07 ◼ ► And we've heard, you know, various things like, Oh no, no, that outward facing display is a must
00:46:12 ◼ ► for all vision pro or vision, OS hardware. It's like, really? Like that would seem like that
00:46:17 ◼ ► would be the first thing that could go, but they're like, no, but philosophically it's very
00:46:20 ◼ ► important. I'm like, okay, but how are you going to make this cheaper? So it's possible
00:46:26 ◼ ► if a QoS report is accurate, that, um, that they've basically said either we don't know,
00:46:32 ◼ ► or we can't do it, or there's no point, uh, because the, uh, it's also a supply issue, right? Like
00:46:38 ◼ ► they're having such supply issues with the vision pro itself. And even if they downgrade the
00:46:43 ◼ ► displays and they might argue about that, like, are they going to have the ability to get those
00:46:48 ◼ ► other kinds of displays? And is it going to be of good enough quality? And is it even worth
00:46:59 ◼ ► Exactly. So my guess is this is kicking the can down the road, letting the vision pro ship,
00:47:04 ◼ ► working on what the next generation vision pro is, and then either doing the Tim Cook thing and
00:47:12 ◼ ► taking the first generation vision pro and discounting it when the second one comes out
00:47:16 ◼ ► or using what you learned with that first generation and building the second generation
00:47:22 ◼ ► to then work on that vision one or whatever down the road. But it did, it always seemed very
00:47:27 ◼ ► ambitious that they were going to do a cheaper version in the short term. And I think this is
00:47:32 ◼ ► Apple saying, yeah, we know this is going to take a lot longer and we aren't, cause I believe that
00:47:37 ◼ ► they, that the vision pro is not that far off from what they think is like the baseline acceptable
00:47:43 ◼ ► experience. And how do you, how do you make those decisions and then say, yeah, but we're gonna,
00:47:48 ◼ ► we're going to ship something that'll be more appealing to the masses a year later that is
00:47:54 ◼ ► below the bar we've set. That's a, that is a tough thing to do. So I'm not too surprised that they
00:48:00 ◼ ► might just kick this thing down the road. And, and it means the problem is it means for developers
00:48:05 ◼ ► that the number of people who are going to be using this platform is going to be small for
00:48:09 ◼ ► a lot longer than maybe they anticipated. Quo also expects that a vision pro 2 is unlikely
00:48:23 ◼ ► I mean, maybe even further these days, but we think of it more on the refresh rate of a Mac.
00:48:28 ◼ ► Well, if you think about, think about this as almost being a product that's shipping in year
00:48:34 ◼ ► minus one, like they, they, they can't, they are struggling with capacity, right already. And that,
00:48:55 ◼ ► the original in any decent quantity. And, and if that's true, I mean, I'm, I'm sure. Imagine
00:49:05 ◼ ► what their, what sites they've set for vision pro 2, right? Like that's probably an even more
00:49:10 ◼ ► impossible product to make today. Right. And will it even be there? Will the parts even be there
00:49:16 ◼ ► when they expect? So it's a, it's a funny thing. Cause I don't think it's Apple's will here. I
00:49:21 ◼ ► think it's also, um, what's available and clear it clearly with the vision pro like they chose
00:49:27 ◼ ► technology that is very expensive and very hard to make and can't be made in high volume. At least
00:49:33 ◼ ► not yet. Continuing with information from Ming Chi Quo on a different tank. He has said that the
00:49:39 ◼ ► 2024 Mac books and iPads will of course feature M3 chips, but also states that his expectation
00:49:52 ◼ ► drivers. Joe Rossignol at Macrumor suggests that this is probably relating to work from home device
00:49:57 ◼ ► sales. Like this had been a big thing for these products over the last few years. And that has
00:50:02 ◼ ► changed. I'm just hoping that he is not suggesting that the new iPad pro does not see a significant
00:50:08 ◼ ► refresh because old boy is it time. Yeah. It's it's hard to tell. Um, this is worth, since we're
00:50:14 ◼ ► talking about Ming Chi Quo here, it's worth talking about that. He had a report that John
00:50:18 ◼ ► Gruber wrote about on daring fireball. He had a report about the overheating reports for the
00:50:22 ◼ ► iPhone 15. Oh yeah. That was very clearly a, uh, TSMC plant that was, Oh, uh, it's not us.
00:50:33 ◼ ► It's not our chip. Whatever's going on in this, in this thing that's, that's turned out to not be much
00:50:38 ◼ ► of a story. Uh, big surprise, uh, new iPhones come out. Um, they run hot for a while. There's
00:50:44 ◼ ► maybe a bug in there too. It's just not a big deal, but he did this story about it. And it was
00:50:48 ◼ ► like, Oh no, this isn't that problem. And it's clearly coming from TSMC and it's worth doing the
00:50:53 ◼ ► thing that we do on upgrade a lot, which is say, consider the source. How do they know the
00:50:58 ◼ ► information? They know, what are they good at? What are they maybe not as good at? Uh, Ming Chi Quo is
00:51:03 ◼ ► a very well-respected good source of information about the supply chain in Asia. Very good at that.
00:51:10 ◼ ► When Ming Chi Quo starts getting into, you know, punditry analysis stuff that is not in his
00:51:19 ◼ ► wheelhouse, you should be more skeptical. So, uh, this is, this is an example where I would say I will
00:51:28 ◼ ► take his report about M3 chips in Mac books and iPads. I mean, this report from him though, it's
00:51:34 ◼ ► not wrong. I'm just saying you gotta back, you gotta back it off a little bit because there's the
00:51:39 ◼ ► stuff that's in his wheelhouse and there's the stuff that's not like no source. Cause we talked
00:51:44 ◼ ► about Mark Grumman a lot here too. No source is even a solid source is solid about everything.
00:51:53 ◼ ► So it's worth scoring them based on like, what are they good at? And then what does it feel like?
00:51:59 ◼ ► It's a little bit on the outside. I want to read what Quo said. This is what John Greubel linked
00:52:03 ◼ ► to. He says, Quo says, my survey indicates that the iPhone 15 pro series overheating issues are
00:52:08 ◼ ► unrelated to TSMC's Avant-3 Nermany and node. The primary cause is more likely the compromises made
00:52:15 ◼ ► in the thermal system designed to achieve a lighter weight, such as the reduced heat dissipation area
00:52:20 ◼ ► and the use of a titanium frame, which negatively impacts thermal efficiency. It's expected Apple
00:52:26 ◼ ► will address this through software updates, but improvements may be limited unless Apple lowers
00:52:30 ◼ ► processor performance. If Apple does not properly address this issue, it can negatively impact
00:52:35 ◼ ► shipments over the product life cycle of the iPhone 15 pro series. This doesn't sound wrong to me.
00:52:58 ◼ ► Right? Like is what you said. He didn't say for sure. But it is a software thing that Apple's
00:53:03 ◼ ► going to address, which he also says. But he's also doing some work for TSMC to get it off of
00:53:08 ◼ ► their back here, right? And saying, oh, it might be this problem with the titanium. It might be
00:53:11 ◼ ► the titanium. And Apple's like, it's not the titanium, okay? And also that last sentence,
00:53:17 ◼ ► if Apple doesn't address this issue, it could hurt the sales of the iPhone. And the stock went down.
00:53:23 ◼ ► And it's like, well, duh, if Apple doesn't properly address the issue of the most important product,
00:53:30 ◼ ► then it might be a problem. But is it an issue and will Apple address it? Those are the questions
00:53:35 ◼ ► there. And I guess that's what I'm saying is he's not wrong. And when he's in his bailiwick,
00:53:43 ◼ ► he's really good. But he's straying a little bit here because again, you have to ask like,
00:53:51 ◼ ► where did this come from? And it feels very strongly to me and to Gruber that he's doing
00:53:57 ◼ ► some work for TSMC, right? TSMC is like, it's not us, it's not us. Don't blame this on us.
00:54:04 ◼ ► here's a bunch of other things that could be, but you know what? It's not. It's not TSMC's processors.
00:54:09 ◼ ► That's what it's not. - Yeah. But it's like these apps that are overheating iPhones, are they just
00:54:14 ◼ ► overheating the new iPhones? - Yeah, I don't know. I mean, because- - Because if they are, why? - Right.
00:54:20 ◼ ► And there might be an OS bug that's related to the hardware, but also remember that when these
00:54:24 ◼ ► devices ship out, they are indexing every photo and they're doing spotlight indexing and they're
00:54:30 ◼ ► syncing a bunch of stuff and like a newly installed iPhone runs hot for a while anyway. But also
00:54:38 ◼ ► there's the question of like, you know, Instagram maybe is using API wrong. - Instagram and Uber,
00:54:43 ◼ ► they named specifically, which I found to be very weird, like as a thing. It's kind of like-
00:54:49 ◼ ► - Third parties. - Why can they even do that? - Companies you don't like are at fault here, not Apple.
00:55:03 ◼ ► you get that other lack of nuance, which is like, "Pff, Ming-Chi Kuo, you know, he said this thing and
00:55:09 ◼ ► he's in TSMC's pocket." It's like, no, Ming-Chi Kuo is great at what he does, which is the supply chain
00:55:14 ◼ ► stuff. Like I believe him. The lack of growth drivers explanation, sometimes his explanations
00:55:20 ◼ ► are where I have to apply a little more skepticism because he's trying to take the facts he know and
00:55:25 ◼ ► then build the narrative around it in order to make his facts feel complete or relevant or
00:55:30 ◼ ► whatever. And he's not necessarily wrong, right? Like it could mean that the iPad Pro is not going
00:55:36 ◼ ► to get a bigger refresh. It could just mean as Joe Rossignol, friend of the show, says at Mac Rumors
00:55:41 ◼ ► that this is all part of the same story, which is the pandemic sold a lot of iPads and laptops,
00:55:47 ◼ ► and those people are on a new cycle. They came a little bit ahead. They bought that new iPad
00:55:51 ◼ ► and laptop then, and they're not going to buy another one two years later. They're not. So
00:55:55 ◼ ► the sales are going to be lower, and that's just how it's going to be. Regardless, like,
00:55:59 ◼ ► because there's also this thing that happens, especially in business journalism a lot, where
00:56:03 ◼ ► there's this, like Bloomberg does this a lot, where it's like A happened and then B happened,
00:56:07 ◼ ► and therefore they're connected, right? It's like it's this correlation causation problem that
00:56:13 ◼ ► happens. And I see this with device sales sometimes too, which is, "Oh, they're going to
00:56:19 ◼ ► put M3 chips in there, but demand may not follow." It's like, you know, updating a computer doesn't
00:56:29 ◼ ► necessarily mean that sales surge, right? That's not, it's not that simple, because you got to
00:56:35 ◼ ► take into account a whole bunch of other things. So you don't necessarily have to make those
00:56:38 ◼ ► connections, and you don't necessarily have to make those narratives and build them, but people
00:56:43 ◼ ► do. So that's, that's why we're here, Mike. Yep. Benjamin Mayo at 9to5Mac is reporting an
00:56:49 ◼ ► information share by Business F1 magazine that Apple is looking at trying to secure worldwide
00:56:55 ◼ ► rights for Formula One. They are reportedly looking at a deal that will be ultimately worth
00:57:02 ◼ ► $2 billion a year, which is double the current rights fee. Like if looked at what, what they're
00:57:07 ◼ ► looking at what F1 rights are worth worldwide. The issue with this, and the interesting part
00:57:14 ◼ ► of this is the way in which the rights are structured. So if Apple were to strike this deal,
00:57:18 ◼ ► they would not actually be able to secure the global rights at the same time. They would have
00:57:23 ◼ ► to get them on a rolling schedule until all of the contracts expire in the different territories
00:57:29 ◼ ► that are all over the next five years. So US rights are in 2025, so that would probably be first,
00:57:37 ◼ ► then other territories later on. Apple is expected to make a seven-year deal for this reason,
00:57:43 ◼ ► and then also double the rights fees. Right. It would be very interesting to see how they would
00:57:49 ◼ ► handle this. F1 TV, for example, is like something that people really enjoy. If you're outside of
00:57:56 ◼ ► some markets, like I can't get F1 TV because Sky has that very locked down here. But F1 TV is like
00:58:03 ◼ ► a pretty technologically rich platform. Like you can watch like dozens and dozens of camera feeds,
00:58:10 ◼ ► you get live data and all that kind of stuff. Would Apple want to do that? I don't know, maybe,
00:58:15 ◼ ► but there is a lot of interesting stuff that could be done with F1. I think it is a really good set
00:58:21 ◼ ► of rights to try and acquire if possible, because it's a growing sport and it's a sport I think with
00:58:29 ◼ ► a high index in advertising for the market that's watching it. It's an interesting one to go for,
00:58:38 ◼ ► but a complicated one because it is so chopped up. And Sky, who have the rights here, are very
00:58:45 ◼ ► closely linked with F1. So like outside of the UK, the Sky feed is the main feed. So like if you
00:58:53 ◼ ► watch it on ESPN, sometimes you get told about features for Sky customers on ESPN, which you
00:59:06 ◼ ► interested, intrigued to see if or if anything happens here. So yeah, so demographics are good
00:59:12 ◼ ► and it's international. And this is one of the things that I think Apple ideally wants.
00:59:16 ◼ ► There was a story last week talking to Eddy Cue, I guess, about a little bit about, or a story about
00:59:22 ◼ ► Eddy Cue and about sports rights and all of that, that I thought was really interesting.
00:59:30 ◼ ► It's a lot easier if it's something that you can buy and you can put everywhere. And there's a
00:59:34 ◼ ► couple ways to do that. The easy way is something like MLS that didn't really have international
00:59:39 ◼ ► partners and you just to speak of anyway, and you just buy it all and say, we're going to put this
00:59:44 ◼ ► everywhere in the world. And that allows Messi to be watched on Apple TV+ in, or on the MLS
00:59:56 ◼ ► But a lot of what sports are truly international like that, there are not that many. And F1 is one
01:00:02 ◼ ► of them. So that's interesting. It is interesting from a technological standpoint. The challenge
01:00:10 ◼ ► ends up being rights again. And I like, I'm intrigued by the idea that how does Apple solve
01:00:15 ◼ ► that? One of the ways Apple maybe solves that is swooping in and saying, we're going to make a deal
01:00:19 ◼ ► that's long-term and we will assume the rights in all territories as they expire. That sounds really
01:00:28 ◼ ► interesting, right? We will pay you and then as we pick up new territories, we will pay an increased
01:00:33 ◼ ► fee. We'll start with the ones that are expiring in '25, rolling until all the way till 2030. And
01:00:40 ◼ ► we'll actually go to 2032 with the deal, let's say. And we're going to pay you an average of
01:00:46 ◼ ► $2 billion a year over the course of the contract, but it'll be based on as the rights phase in to us.
01:00:52 ◼ ► All sounds really interesting and possible and something that Apple might want to do. And if you
01:00:58 ◼ ► throw in that with Drive to Survive and stuff like that, Apple would get on the documentary
01:01:03 ◼ ► train as well. They already are. Well, yeah. And we've seen two messy documentaries. That would
01:01:11 ◼ ► become a priority as well. So you build content around it. Yeah. I mean, just as a point,
01:01:15 ◼ ► they're making a documentary about Lewis Hamilton and then they have the movie, the Brad Pitt movie.
01:01:28 ◼ ► That it's an interesting idea of what they could do. I will put out one caveat that I know from
01:01:34 ◼ ► other sports, which is sometimes the way these sports rights are written, you can't as an entity
01:01:42 ◼ ► negotiate a future version of the contract until a certain point. You're not technically allowed,
01:01:50 ◼ ► legally allowed to renegotiate. And in some cases there's a whole like for the year before it
01:01:57 ◼ ► expires or for a year period two years before it expires, you have exclusive renegotiation rights
01:02:05 ◼ ► as the rights holder. So that's my question is I'm not sure if F1 was like, yeah, we're going to take
01:02:11 ◼ ► $2 billion from Apple. It's going to run from 25 to 32. It's a done deal. We're going to take it up.
01:02:17 ◼ ► It'll start rolling out in 25 with the US and then roll across the rest of the world as those rights
01:02:21 ◼ ► expire. I don't know if they can make that deal is my only question. Because the sky say, well, no,
01:02:29 ◼ ► you can't negotiate with anyone for the rights until 29 when our rights are or 28 until right
01:02:40 ◼ ► So there's a lot of questions here, but everything about this report makes sense to me in terms of
01:02:47 ◼ ► how Apple and EdiQ are viewing their approach to sports. Yep. And Mark Gorman is reporting that
01:02:56 ◼ ► Apple is developing more search engine technology. So obviously Apple have their own search tools in
01:03:02 ◼ ► the app store and maps. Like they built their own stuff for that. As well as spotlight. This is like
01:03:08 ◼ ► Mark highlights some of this stuff. It's in John, Giannandrea's team. Giannandrea is the head of AI
01:03:16 ◼ ► and machine learning at Apple and apparently has a very large team. Mark Gorman calls it dedicated
01:03:21 ◼ ► to create and search technologies. Mark Gorman is reporting that this team is quote, now looking to
01:03:27 ◼ ► more deeply integrate Apple search features into iOS and Mac OS and potentially bolster the
01:03:40 ◼ ► are apparently hesitant to have their own web search become a thing due to its lucrative
01:03:45 ◼ ► agreement with Google, unless they're able to create a system that could generate their own
01:03:49 ◼ ► ad revenue. Yeah. But yeah. Yeah. Also that Microsoft wanted Apple to buy Bing at one point.
01:03:57 ◼ ► Yes, that was a thing that was spoken about this week. Yes. And they couldn't come to an agreement
01:04:03 ◼ ► about it. I think this is fascinating, right? Because it's this idea that Apple is building
01:04:06 ◼ ► search tech, but the Google deal is so lucrative that they aren't gonna, you know, they aren't
01:04:12 ◼ ► gonna bother because Google pays them so well. Mark does suggest that potentially they use it
01:04:17 ◼ ► as like a negotiating chip as well. Also, right. Well, it's an Apple maps-esque kind of thing where
01:04:22 ◼ ► it's like, you don't have us over a barrel. We could build this or we could partner with
01:04:27 ◼ ► somebody else. And we know that they have so many, you know, huge ad ambitions that this could be a
01:04:34 ◼ ► part of. So, you know, it doesn't, I don't know. I think it's interesting. As a podcaster, I think
01:04:44 ◼ ► about Apple building, you know, how Apple's podcast crawler works where it's so, you know,
01:04:48 ◼ ► it's gotten better, but it's like, sometimes it misses things. You got to kick it a little bit and
01:04:54 ◼ ► all that. And I try to imagine a whole web crawler, but I guess they already do it. They've got a web
01:04:58 ◼ ► crawler and they use it and they surface it in some places and they surface Bing data in some
01:05:02 ◼ ► places. But primarily if you're in Safari, by default, you get Google and there's a huge deal
01:05:07 ◼ ► for that. I do wonder if with the legal case going on, if that there's also a hedge going on here
01:05:14 ◼ ► where Apple might realize like, if they can't make the, if they're not allowed to have that same kind
01:05:20 ◼ ► of deal with Google anymore, maybe that's when they put, you know, Plan B into place and Plan B
01:05:25 ◼ ► is not Bing or some kind of an auction. It's literally, no, we're going to just use Apple
01:05:31 ◼ ► search from now on and we're going to monetize it ourselves. We're going to make ads, we're going to
01:05:36 ◼ ► put ads all over search pages and that's how we're going to do it. I don't know. Do you think that
01:05:41 ◼ ► the Google, the, the, the Google, so the deal is that Google pays Apple billions of dollars to be
01:05:49 ◼ ► the default search engine on the iPhone when you search for something. Do you think that this
01:05:55 ◼ ► arrangement is in contrast to Apple's stance on privacy? I think it's complicated, but yes.
01:06:06 ◼ ► Okay. The simple version is yes. Like the simple version is if all, if there was no money on the
01:06:13 ◼ ► line, let's do it, think of it this way. If there was no money on the line and it was purely a
01:06:19 ◼ ► customer experience thing that Apple was caring about and that like the default search engine
01:06:27 ◼ ► didn't make Apple any money at all, regardless, I think they would either have built their own
01:06:33 ◼ ► search or they would use some, or they would have bought or would use DuckDuckGo or some other,
01:06:40 ◼ ► you know, there's some others out there, but that kind of thing, I think they would have gravitated
01:06:44 ◼ ► a long time ago toward a more privacy focused search engine, but it's an enormous amount of
01:06:51 ◼ ► money that they make from Google. And then, and then they are, they are by default turning their
01:06:57 ◼ ► users to what is, I will say probably the best search experience still, although search is
01:07:03 ◼ ► getting worse by the day, but it's probably the best one, but at the price of being in Google's
01:07:11 ◼ ► data funnel. And, you know, I, so I think that you could argue that Google is, I mean, I use
01:07:19 ◼ ► Google search because I've tried the others. I'm like, Nope, back to Google search. Right.
01:07:28 ◼ ► I have heard of Kagi. It's getting a bit of buzz at the moment, which old school Mac users will
01:07:35 ◼ ► remember, used to be a completely different company and they went bankrupt. They heard a lot
01:07:39 ◼ ► of software developers and then somebody bought the domain and is making a new product and I'd say
01:07:44 ◼ ► four pay search engine. Was that like a payment system? Yeah, it was, it was Kagi was how you
01:07:51 ◼ ► bought your shareware back in the day. Yeah. I know this was of James Thompson. Yes. Yeah,
01:07:56 ◼ ► exactly. And they, and they went out of business and basically was like, Oh yeah, we owe you
01:08:00 ◼ ► developers a lot of money. You're not ever going to see it. You're not going to get it? Yeah.
01:08:03 ◼ ► You can search for it. I suppose. I guess now you can do that. Good luck. Just go to Kagi and say,
01:08:11 ◼ ► where's my money? You know? Yeah. So, uh, yeah, it's a paid, it's like a paid, you have to
01:08:17 ◼ ► subscribe to be in there search anyway. And this is my point is, is like, yes, Apple's choosing a
01:08:23 ◼ ► good product, but they're done. I don't think they're choosing it for those reasons. I think
01:08:26 ◼ ► they're choosing it because of money. And if all they cared about was privacy and not money,
01:08:37 ◼ ► little thing that came up and said, Oh, choose your search engine, but they do not. You have to
01:08:44 ◼ ► go dig in the settings if you want to change your search engine. Yeah. I feel like that would
01:08:47 ◼ ► probably be the way it would work that they would ask you. Right. I feel like that that's what would
01:08:52 ◼ ► happen. Probably didn't pay them money because you're using Bing now. Everybody's using Bing now
01:08:59 ◼ ► and users would be like, what did you do? And so instead they would ask also even, I mean,
01:09:04 ◼ ► I'm curious about the Apple Google deal because there's, I mean, the exclusivity is obviously
01:09:11 ◼ ► part of it, but surely you could, and maybe this will be the end result of all of this, um,
01:09:16 ◼ ► litigation that's going on the idea that maybe it's just all based on affiliate revenue,
01:09:26 ◼ ► essentially that like ad served that come from these, from Apple's Safari, Apple gets a
01:09:33 ◼ ► percentage of it and that's what Apple gets paid. I just think it's best if there's no money that
01:09:39 ◼ ► changes hands. And they, well, the problem is, is that they're feeding Google's business.
01:09:43 ◼ ► So money is changing hands. So, but you could do it where it's like, look, Apple makes money
01:09:48 ◼ ► regardless because everybody who owns a search engine pays us if we, if you set it as the default.
01:09:56 ◼ ► I think that there's, yeah, you're right. I think it would be best if money did not change hands,
01:10:00 ◼ ► but if that's the case, then I think Apple would just go to their own search engine and make money
01:10:04 ◼ ► off of ad placements on their search engine. Cause like there's money to be made in search.
01:10:17 ◼ ► Well, I mean, I would prefer, I would prefer if Apple and Google did not have this deal. I just
01:10:23 ◼ ► think it muddies things in a way that annoys me, right. That like we have app tracking transparency
01:10:28 ◼ ► on one end. And then we also have like Google was the default web tracking obscurity on the other
01:10:35 ◼ ► end. And it's all just like, I don't know where this deal sits in that flow. It's just like a
01:10:41 ◼ ► very strange thing to me. I'm sure that you are making an argument that's been made inside Apple,
01:10:45 ◼ ► which is this is what we should do. And I think what it is is this is what we should do. We should
01:10:53 ◼ ► philosophically Apple thinks, well, but when we do it, it isn't evil, right? Because we're Apple
01:10:57 ◼ ► and you trust us and we're not going to do hinky things with the data. We're going to serve you ads
01:11:02 ◼ ► like we do on the app store, but we're not going to do all the stuff that Google does with your data.
01:11:06 ◼ ► We're not going to build a profile that we share with other people. We're not going to do any of
01:11:09 ◼ ► that. We're just going to be Apple and you trust us, right? Like that. And that's the thing we can
01:11:13 ◼ ► argue about what they're saying there and how self-serving it is. And do they really mean it?
01:11:17 ◼ ► And are they truly not tracking you, which of course they are, but they're tracking you inside
01:11:21 ◼ ► Apple, which is a first party and therefore they don't consider it hinky. They think it's fine
01:11:26 ◼ ► because it's Apple, but that would be their argument, right? Is ultimately, and I'm sure
01:11:31 ◼ ► those people get shouted down by the people who are like $9 billion a year. They're like, okay,
01:11:40 ◼ ► This conversation may happen a lot. And then it gets to the point where they're like, oh,
01:11:44 ◼ ► but this comes out of services revenue. And then they go, well, oh no, our stock price.
01:11:49 ◼ ► And then they don't do it because if one year, all of a sudden billions of dollars has disappeared
01:11:55 ◼ ► from the part that's meant to be saving the company into the future and in Wall Street,
01:12:06 ◼ ► here are all the reasons. I got a keynote here. Here are all the reasons we should use our own
01:12:11 ◼ ► search. And it's like, it's better for users. We make money on ads, you know, da, da, da.
01:12:17 ◼ ► And then literally the person at the other end of the table says, oh no, our stock price.
01:12:27 ◼ ► ruling, I think. And that's why I think that this is going on in the background is like,
01:12:31 ◼ ► we need to have the ability to switch gears if the spigot dries up. 'Cause Google could also be like,
01:12:39 ◼ ► you know, you can do what you want with us. We're not gonna make this deal anymore. Or Google might
01:12:44 ◼ ► say, guys, we can't make this deal anymore. They're looking at us. So I don't know. I don't
01:12:51 ◼ ► know. But I do think ultimately it would be better for users' privacy. The question is,
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01:16:02 ◼ ► This might be the last time now truly that we go to the B-Tails, Jason Snell, to talk about Mac OS
01:16:13 ◼ ► Sonoma. Yeah, the B-Tails will be back. The B-Tails will return. The B-Tails will return. It's the end
01:16:18 ◼ ► of... I mean, well, there'll be... it's gonna be betas with new features in it. The B-Tails may be
01:16:23 ◼ ► surprisingly resilient, but yeah, Mac OS Sonoma shipped. Hooray! Hooray! Hooray! I did a bunch of...
01:16:30 ◼ ► I have a bunch of computers that I had like this computer runs Sonoma and this computer is not
01:16:35 ◼ ► running Sonoma so I can do... and all of that is over now. I've switched back to various computers
01:16:47 ◼ ► so yeah, Sonoma everywhere now. Yeah, I was just planning on putting Sonoma on my MacBook Air.
01:16:55 ◼ ► I was not planning on putting it on my MacBook Pro, which is my recording machine, because I
01:17:01 ◼ ► always like to just wait it out a little bit just in case. Yeah. But then I went to Safari
01:17:08 ◼ ► and I'd enabled profiles and then couldn't access any of my tab groups. So now both of my machines
01:17:15 ◼ ► are on Sonoma because I need to be able to use my web browser in the way that I'm used to using it.
01:17:22 ◼ ► That's how they get you. That's how they get you. You called it in your review "Small... like the
01:17:34 ◼ ► I think there's something to that, that the idea that sometimes these updates get judged on like
01:17:42 ◼ ► how many things got poured into them, how many new features, how many extra things. And it feels like,
01:17:47 ◼ ► I mean iOS you could say this too, but certainly on the Mac that's been around for so long now,
01:17:52 ◼ ► that I don't think most Mac users want their OS updates to like completely change how they use
01:17:59 ◼ ► their Mac, right? Like they don't. They want some incremental improvements and they want the
01:18:04 ◼ ► platform improvements that are across all of Apple's platforms, but I don't think they want
01:18:08 ◼ ► to be disrupted. I think they just want it to get better every year. And that's the good thing about
01:18:12 ◼ ► Sonoma is that it is not disruptive really, but it does add a bunch of new features and some of them
01:18:21 ◼ ► I want to talk about a few areas, I think the key areas. I can see five of them and I also,
01:18:29 ◼ ► these came from your review. So I think these are kind of like the key parts. Widget is probably the
01:18:34 ◼ ► biggest feature I reckon for most people. Whether you want it or not, like it's a big change. So we
01:18:40 ◼ ► have widgets on the desktop, they're interactive as well. You don't seem to be a big fan of widgets
01:18:48 ◼ ► on the Mac. No, it's not like, I just had a realization that I don't dislike them. I think they
01:18:56 ◼ ► make less of an impact than they do on iOS and iPad OS. I think that's the thing, that's a point
01:19:02 ◼ ► that I wanted to make there is that they are, because so much of iOS and iPad OS is one app at
01:19:09 ◼ ► a time, home screen's really important. You put things on the home screen, you get your apps there.
01:19:14 ◼ ► It's a more powerful thing and also interactive widgets. The idea that when you're out on the home
01:19:24 ◼ ► screen, you don't need to launch an app. You can just very quickly interact with a widget.
01:19:28 ◼ ► I had this moment of realization where I was writing about, "Oh, widgets are now interactive."
01:19:34 ◼ ► So for example, and I thought about it and I was like, "For example, you could put a to-do,
01:19:44 ◼ ► "Or you could just keep reminders open and check the boxes off." Does that make sense? The idea
01:19:52 ◼ ► that on a Mac, having a bunch of apps open and a bunch of windows in various places, that's just
01:19:58 ◼ ► how the Mac works. And so I don't see the need to have my reminders widget open on my desktop. I
01:20:05 ◼ ► could just have reminders open and put it wherever it is. And it's the whole app. And when I click on
01:20:10 ◼ ► it, I have the whole app there. And so that's part of it. It's just, it's less, again, not that
01:20:16 ◼ ► interactive widgets are bad, but they have less appeal on the Mac. And the widgets on the desktop,
01:20:22 ◼ ► it's good, but the average Mac user, not all of us, a lot of us have big screens, but like the
01:20:28 ◼ ► Mac most people use is a laptop, which means there's not a lot of screen real estate, which
01:20:32 ◼ ► means you probably got a lot of windows open, which means you probably don't see a lot of your desktop
01:20:36 ◼ ► and that's where they're hiding. So they're not ambient. You have to go looking for them,
01:20:41 ◼ ► which was the problem in Notification Center. It's not as bad as Notification Center. They set the
01:20:50 ◼ ► Plus there's a keyboard shortcut. Plus there's a trackpad gesture. There's lots of ways to get
01:20:54 ◼ ► there, but by sticking them on the desktop, they are behind your content. And on a 27 inch monitor,
01:21:00 ◼ ► there's room. I can see spaces on my desktop. On my MacBook Air, there's not so much room and
01:21:05 ◼ ► they're less useful there. And also the scale is weird on the Mac. Like they're, they're kind of
01:21:11 ◼ ► too big. Everything's kind of a little bit, I think too big. And I think that's just a scale
01:21:17 ◼ ► thing between macOS and iOS, that the scale is different, but they feel unnecessarily large,
01:21:23 ◼ ► which means they take up even more space than you maybe need them to. All of this said, I don't
01:21:28 ◼ ► think they're bad. I like widgets. I think widgets are fun. I think the fact that you can run iPhone
01:21:33 ◼ ► widgets from your iPhone and put them on your Mac is great because there's certain apps that don't
01:21:37 ◼ ► run on the Mac, even though they should, because they're iPhone only or because they've unchecked
01:21:41 ◼ ► that box and they're like, no, this app cannot be available on the Mac. I don't understand it. It's
01:21:46 ◼ ► very frustrating. Now you can get those widgets to run. That's really great too. Like there's a lot,
01:21:51 ◼ ► the way you place them on the screen is really nice where it sort of lets you freely place them,
01:21:57 ◼ ► but if they're near another widget, it'll give you like some alignment guides so you can make
01:22:02 ◼ ► them like look all nice. It's really well done. And if you've got a lot of files on your desktop,
01:22:08 ◼ ► they all move out of the way magically as you drag the widget around to place it and then they stay
01:22:14 ◼ ► away from it. So there's a lot of good detail here. I just had that moment where I thought to myself,
01:22:18 ◼ ► I'm less excited about widgets on the Mac and interactive widgets on the Mac than I am on
01:22:25 ◼ ► Apple's other platforms because they feel very much like they're like an A plus, okay, maybe not.
01:22:30 ◼ ► They're a grade A, let's say idea on an iPhone or an iPad on the Mac. It's like a B or a B minus.
01:22:46 ◼ ► So I really like them. One of the things that helps me use the widgets more is I'm a stage
01:22:54 ◼ ► manager user where you cannot turn off the clicking on the desktop shows you to desktop.
01:22:59 ◼ ► It's just not available for you to turn off. So I see them more because, and also just being a
01:23:05 ◼ ► stage manager user, you just see your desktop more all the time because that's just how it is.
01:23:10 ◼ ► So it actually works pretty well for my use case and I like having them there. As you mentioned,
01:23:17 ◼ ► I only have a couple of windows at a time and I'm able to position some widgets in ways that
01:23:21 ◼ ► I'm going to see them when I need them. I can see some shortcuts widgets that I might want to use
01:23:27 ◼ ► while I'm recording. I can see my timer thing while I'm recording so I can see my time trackers
01:23:32 ◼ ► that are going on. I really like it but I have a request for Apple that I'm going to make on this
01:23:37 ◼ ► show. I would like Apple to take a look at iPad OS and learn from it. So on iPad OS in portrait
01:23:44 ◼ ► and landscape orientation you can set your home screens independently and when you move from,
01:23:51 ◼ ► maybe people don't know this, but whatever layout you do in portrait you can put your iPad into
01:23:57 ◼ ► landscape. You can set a different layout and it remembers both layouts. And the widgets can go
01:24:02 ◼ ► anywhere. It's free placement basically so you can even put them way down where there aren't icons
01:24:09 ◼ ► and it will work. It's true. With the laptop and external display situation it is a nightmare
01:24:17 ◼ ► because if I open my laptop screen they're in a completely different order to what I left them in
01:24:27 ◼ ► on my desktop and then when I plug it back into my screen they weren't where I left them last time.
01:24:34 ◼ ► If you're a laptop user every time you dare to open your laptop your widgets all move and they
01:24:42 ◼ ► never go back to the way that you set them to. That is wild to me that they shipped it this way.
01:24:48 ◼ ► I just can't I cannot understand how that happened but that happened. I would like the locations to
01:24:55 ◼ ► be remembered. I even had one today where I was testing this out before the show where I set all
01:25:03 ◼ ► my widgets up and I unplugged it and I opened my MacBook Air and I had two widgets overlapping each
01:25:08 ◼ ► other which was fun. So I had a big widget and a small widget in the middle of the big widget for a
01:25:13 ◼ ► different app. They just one had just gone on top of the other and this is in Sonoma as it's shipping
01:25:21 ◼ ► to the world today. But big fan of widgets I hope that they maybe tighten that up a little bit
01:25:29 ◼ ► but I think that it's a cool feature that I'm happy to have. I think it would be better if it were
01:25:35 ◼ ► yeah there's some detail work that could be done I'd like the scaling to change honestly.
01:25:39 ◼ ► I would like it to be either I'd like to be able to bring them to the top instead of having to hide
01:25:47 ◼ ► all your windows because I think that there's a scenario where you might want to widget on top
01:25:51 ◼ ► but see the content that's in your windows in order to or just either pin it on top or temporarily
01:25:57 ◼ ► bring it to the top. But yeah I would like some more placement because they're like right now
01:26:01 ◼ ► they're like stickers stuck on the wallpaper right they don't ever leave that bottom layer.
01:26:07 ◼ ► And I can see scenarios where I'd actually like to have them either floating like a picture-in-picture
01:26:13 ◼ ► window or temporarily above my content so I could do for example like look at the Google
01:26:18 ◼ ► doc in front of me while I put something in a interactive widget and they don't do that.
01:26:23 ◼ ► Like the only way to do that is to move your windows around so that the widget is visible
01:26:27 ◼ ► and your window is visible and all that. I didn't even mention the other reason that I'm
01:26:33 ◼ ► less excited about them is Mac has the dock and it has the menu bar so it's got lots of other places
01:26:40 ◼ ► where you can put stuff and so the widgets although they're nice again they feel less essential because
01:26:45 ◼ ► the Mac has already solved a bunch of these problems and so yeah that's part of the story.
01:26:51 ◼ ► Now video screensavers you said I'm incredibly impressed at the fit and finish Apple has put
01:26:57 ◼ ► into the transition from screensaver to desktop so this is like the Apple TV like movies and then
01:27:03 ◼ ► they fade into the desktop you really seem to like this feature. Yeah it's just this is another one of
01:27:09 ◼ ► those examples of them doing detail work that's not necessary. I think I mentioned this one when
01:27:15 ◼ ► it went into beta but like they've got okay they've got all the aerial screensavers and they've got
01:27:20 ◼ ► from Apple TV and you can make them not only your screensaver but your desktop and everybody expects
01:27:28 ◼ ► that I think the what what do you think that feature would work like? You would think that it
01:27:33 ◼ ► would be that when the screensaver is done and you're back to your computer there's like a bloop
01:27:40 ◼ ► and it goes from your screensaver to the backdrop and they're from the same you know they're from
01:27:47 ◼ ► the same image from the same movie but they're not obviously they're not the same or if you give them
01:27:53 ◼ ► a little more credit you'd say there that it you know you do that and it immediately stops and the
01:27:58 ◼ ► frame that you're on is that is now your wallpaper and that's not what happens. Instead when you go
01:28:04 ◼ ► from the screensaver to logging in or you know or unlocking or whatever you do what happens is
01:28:10 ◼ ► the screensaver video keeps playing in the background on your wallpaper and slowly coasts
01:28:15 ◼ ► to a halt and then that's your wallpaper and like that is completely unnecessary but it is the right
01:28:23 ◼ ► way to do it and it is beautiful to see and every time I see it I'm delighted by it but and that that
01:28:29 ◼ ► is I love those moments where I think yeah that's an Apple feature that is Apple going the extra mile
01:28:34 ◼ ► to make something nice that we as computer users get beaten down and we're like yeah remember when
01:28:42 ◼ ► with Apple silicon they did the thing where in the display control panel when you changed
01:28:46 ◼ ► resolutions it just changed them and it used to be on Intel and prior to that like your screen would
01:28:52 ◼ ► black out yeah and and then come back and you made it so you clicked and it just changed and you're
01:28:59 ◼ ► like what what happened this is a little like that which is like we're so beaten down that we're like
01:29:02 ◼ ► well of course when the screensaver ends there's gonna be a blink or a black screen or something's
01:29:07 ◼ ► gonna be a discontinuity is gonna happen and then I'll log in and then maybe or you know I'll touch
01:29:12 ◼ ► ID or whatever and maybe it'll go to my thing and it'll be fine like and and somebody at Apple is
01:29:18 ◼ ► like no no no that's don't do that like there's got to be a better way we should not accept
01:29:24 ◼ ► that discontinuity that's just being lazy we could do better and I love it when Apple does that
01:29:30 ◼ ► because that to me is like that is the Apple thing that is Apple actually caring about the detail
01:29:35 ◼ ► work of of of having the screensaver delightfully transition into a background and kind of coasting
01:29:45 ◼ ► down to a stop it's just is it a world-changing feature no that's actually kind of why it
01:29:50 ◼ ► impresses me as they put the work into something that is just a kind of pleasant feature when
01:29:57 ◼ ► you're using your Mac just a little pleasant thing and the fact that they did that I just I'm very
01:30:02 ◼ ► impressed I'm impressed that they went to the trouble they added a bunch of video controls and
01:30:07 ◼ ► effects yeah yeah this is actually another place where they did extra right so they're basically
01:30:16 ◼ ► machine learning technology they built for the iPhone camera to do stuff like subject detection
01:30:22 ◼ ► and background detection and that's how you get portrait mode and that's how you get studio light
01:30:29 ◼ ► right so the portrait mode blurs the background studio light they're detecting the user in the
01:30:32 ◼ ► foreground the person the subjects and they're lightening them and darkening the background or
01:30:37 ◼ ► maybe they're not touching the background they're just lightening the the foreground but the idea
01:30:41 ◼ ► there is those are features that are happening because Apple's got this whole pipeline where
01:30:44 ◼ ► they're taking the input from the camera and then they're detecting on the fly the background and
01:30:50 ◼ ► the subject and then they can do things with that but once you've got that in the pipeline so the
01:30:55 ◼ ► apps don't need it the Apple's apps don't need to like say hey give me portrait mode or whatever
01:30:58 ◼ ► it's a system level thing the apps just get a camera that's actually the processed output from
01:31:04 ◼ ► Apple's from the video subsystem that's very impressive but what happened clearly is that
01:31:11 ◼ ► everybody at Apple's like okay we got this now what can we do with it like we've got all our
01:31:16 ◼ ► video segmented with foreground and background what can we do and so they built all of those
01:31:21 ◼ ► silly video effects like the confetti and the fireworks and stuff and like the confetti
01:31:26 ◼ ► falls behind you and in front of you like because they can do that because they know where you are
01:31:32 ◼ ► and they know where your background is and so they can put layered animations in and then pass that
01:31:36 ◼ ► through and then obviously since they're processing they can do gesture detection so if you do two
01:31:42 ◼ ► thumbs up you'll get confetti and if you do the devil horns you'll get the laser show right like
01:31:48 ◼ ► these are all things that that they can do because they're processing every frame of video and running
01:31:52 ◼ ► it through the neural engine and they're doing all this fancy stuff and it's very cool but they also
01:31:59 ◼ ► they added controls which is nice so that you can actually choose where you want to zoom and pan on
01:32:05 ◼ ► something like the studio display or a continuity camera they added for people who are tired of the
01:32:10 ◼ ► center stage moving around there's a there's like a center button that you can click that centers
01:32:20 ◼ ► the image on you and then stops which is really nice a lot of details where we heard when I
01:32:26 ◼ ► complained about this I know that we heard from people who are like apple will never do webcam
01:32:31 ◼ ► settings it's too you know it's too complicated and like well they did them they did them and
01:32:36 ◼ ► they're pretty good but the one that really gets me is the keynote stuff or really it's any any
01:32:42 ◼ ► it's not keynote it's voip presentations so it can be any app any window and with some app I think
01:32:49 ◼ ► apps have to be updated to support it any you know any video conferencing app you click on the little
01:32:56 ◼ ► green button on any window and you can choose share this window into that app and now you're
01:33:02 ◼ ► and you don't have to use the apps like window sharing ui you can literally just click on the
01:33:06 ◼ ► window and say share this window and then within there they've got these two different ways of
01:33:12 ◼ ► putting your video in the window one of them is the window appears behind you like it's floating
01:33:25 ◼ ► so they can they can layer in your screen share between you and the background like it's floating
01:33:31 ◼ ► and they do all the little things like center stage knows that there's a window over there so
01:33:34 ◼ ► it doesn't center you it puts you to the side so that you're not blocking the window really smart
01:33:41 ◼ ► and then their other one is the one that made me laugh it's so hilariously unnecessary and yet they
01:33:47 ◼ ► did it which is there's a small version where you're in the window instead of it showing you
01:33:51 ◼ ► in your background it just shows the window and then there's a little circle and your face is in
01:33:56 ◼ ► it you like a little cartoon character yeah except again we all can imagine that feature right they
01:34:03 ◼ ► crop they center crop and they use center stage and their face detection or whatever and they
01:34:07 ◼ ► center crop around your face and you appear in a little circle that's not what they did they
01:34:12 ◼ ► detect your foreground they detect you right they detect the background they remove the background
01:34:19 ◼ ► and just put a blank background back there they keep your head and then they've got the circle
01:34:23 ◼ ► so it's like your shoulders and the circle and the background but that's not it either you're not in
01:34:28 ◼ ► the circle the top of your head kind of like pops out of the circle yeah you're like popping out of
01:34:33 ◼ ► a little hole right it's totally and this is what i'm saying is like is this necessary no it's
01:34:39 ◼ ► totally unnecessary but it's really nice it's leveraging the technology they built in their
01:34:44 ◼ ► video pipeline to do something that's just a little nice detail and again to to me that is the
01:34:52 ◼ ► apple touch that we don't always see but you know it when you see it and that that again completely
01:35:01 ◼ ► unnecessary but delightful and with this really impressive technical backing um and i love that i
01:35:07 ◼ ► mean they clearly were like okay if we're gonna do this what can we do with this technology of
01:35:14 ◼ ► intercepting the video stream knowing the background knowing the foreground uh you know
01:35:18 ◼ ► having the center stage access and studio light and all these things what could we do and this is
01:35:24 ◼ ► one of the things they came up with and it's really nice um so yeah it's you may not ever use this
01:35:30 ◼ ► feature but uh i just i appreciate they went to the trouble because this is i just i love that
01:35:37 ◼ ► that thing that it's like this is not necessary but apple decided to do it and it's delightful
01:35:42 ◼ ► i think maybe you could probably issue similar praise to screen sharing high performance mode
01:35:47 ◼ ► where in your review you said this feature alone will get me to upgrade my server to mac os sonoma
01:35:52 ◼ ► yeah they basically screen sharing used to be this kind of like hidden app that would launch when you
01:35:56 ◼ ► were in like the sharing in the finder and you're like clicked on a computer on your network and
01:36:02 ◼ ► chose share screen was sort of how you got it and now it's got a complete ui you know it lists all
01:36:07 ◼ ► your recent servers and all that but they added this high performance mode if you're connecting
01:36:11 ◼ ► you're on an apple silicon mac connecting to an apple silicon mac and they're both running sonoma
01:36:16 ◼ ► it enters this high performance mode which you know is obviously going down at a deep level if
01:36:21 ◼ ► you connect to a laptop that's open sitting next to you the laptop screen like goes off
01:36:26 ◼ ► like it's you are taking it over wow but the result is again i've gotten used to screen
01:36:36 ◼ ► sharing with my server in my house and think oh it looks pretty good and then i open this mode and
01:36:43 ◼ ► it no it doesn't look pretty good it looks acceptable for what it is which is screen sharing
01:36:49 ◼ ► this new mode it feels like i'm using that computer it really does feel like i've just i'm
01:36:54 ◼ ► now i've teleported and i'm using that computer it is it is crystal clear this maybe is how the
01:37:00 ◼ ► vision pro works it's possible it's the same setup especially since the laptop screen goes off when
01:37:07 ◼ ► you do it it's possible you saying the laptop screen goes off made me think that this might
01:37:11 ◼ ► be what they're using for the vision pro to make that work yeah and this is my understanding is
01:37:16 ◼ ► this is uh zach's asking about like screens on the ipad this is an apple thing and there's no
01:37:23 ◼ ► apple screen sharing app in on the ipad so i think not i think this is a uh a mac only feature for
01:37:29 ◼ ► now although they really should add it to the ipad that would be great um but it's it's very good
01:37:35 ◼ ► and um i'm i'm anybody who's using screen sharing and again that's a tiny percentage of people but
01:37:40 ◼ ► i love that they gave this app some love and um and it will get me to upgrade my server to
01:37:46 ◼ ► sonoma because i want to connect using that uh because it looks it just looks way better also
01:37:50 ◼ ► it'll do like audio and stuff and apple claims that you could like edit video using this mode
01:37:55 ◼ ► and i'm my audio was a little distorted when i was using it but just like even if that is possible
01:38:06 ◼ ► so safari added a feature called profiles which i was very excited about because it would let me
01:38:14 ◼ ► have i would and i have set up three profiles i have a personal profile for just stuff for me
01:38:21 ◼ ► i have a relay fm profile for my podcasting work and i have a cortex brand profile for my cortex
01:38:26 ◼ ► brand work part of the reason i wanted this feature is that each of these things sometimes
01:38:34 ◼ ► require me to sign in to backends of services yes for each of these things so it like becomes really
01:38:41 ◼ ► complicated for like amen and so i was really happy to have this feature it takes a bit to set
01:38:47 ◼ ► up because like it doesn't even seem to remember some of the uh like it doesn't share your search
01:38:53 ◼ ► history it seems like between them so you got to do that you got to re-enable some extensions like
01:38:57 ◼ ► it takes a little bit of time to set up um the implementation on sonoma i actually think is worse
01:39:04 ◼ ► than the implementation on ios because on ios and ipad os i can toggle the same like app between each
01:39:15 ◼ ► profile but on mac os you switch to a new window each time like it's not like a save state so i now
01:39:25 ◼ ► on my mac have three safari windows open all the time and then i just switch between them which
01:39:31 ◼ ► that is definitely a downside but the upside of this feature is much higher for me but what i
01:39:37 ◼ ► would like to be able to do is just to be able to toggle between them but what it makes you do is
01:39:44 ◼ ► open a new window each time you want to toggle between them which is a strange way of doing it
01:39:50 ◼ ► but that's the way that i decided to do it on the mac which is odd i don't really know why it is that
01:39:56 ◼ ► way i like this feature too i'm using it for youtube believe it or not that's what i have
01:40:03 ◼ ► yeah i have my whole world in one particular google account and then everything i do on
01:40:10 ◼ ► youtube is in a different account and i end up having to be logged into both and and it has
01:40:16 ◼ ► really negative effects because as you know because this happens with our google docs for this show
01:40:23 ◼ ► um i don't know why google does this i don't know why it's so frustrating sometimes it just decides
01:40:30 ◼ ► oh you've got you're logged into two accounts i'm going to use this other account for this for this
01:40:36 ◼ ► google doc it's like no i never want to use that account with this google doc but you can't really
01:40:41 ◼ ► set a default the only real way to get it to work um every time is to log out of the other account
01:40:49 ◼ ► but that's the account i need for youtube so frustrating so now i have a youtube profile
01:40:57 ◼ ► that is logged into that account and i have a personal profile that is literally everything else
01:41:04 ◼ ► just so that i can keep the youtube login completely separate so it doesn't keep hijacking
01:41:09 ◼ ► all my other google stuff but it works great my only problem there is the ui once you switch
01:41:23 ◼ ► and i don't want that i actually i want it to be and i don't think there's a you can set a default
01:41:31 ◼ ► but that's not the same thing i would like to be able to say all new windows open in this profile
01:41:38 ◼ ► yeah this is part of the tab group problem too tab groups works like this exactly 99 of the time i
01:41:44 ◼ ► want it to be in not a tab group and personal profile um but it does this thing where like if
01:41:51 ◼ ► i'm in youtube profile it thinks everything i click on everything i want to do is in youtube
01:41:56 ◼ ► profile and it's like no i make a new window it's in youtube profile i have to turn it back to
01:42:00 ◼ ► personal i don't like that i want it to just be only go into the other profile when i tell you to
01:42:06 ◼ ► otherwise have a default profile and there is a default but it doesn't stick yeah across based on
01:42:11 ◼ ► the state of the current window it doesn't stick and i it drives me nuts so yeah like and it's also
01:42:19 ◼ ► the thing that i want where you could switch between them you can do that if you open a blank
01:42:25 ◼ ► new window you can switch that window between the other profiles but as soon as you navigate to a
01:42:31 ◼ ► web page it doesn't let you do that anymore and it will now only ever open a new window with a
01:42:39 ◼ ► different profile in it so it turns out that it remaps the keyboard shortcuts too in the file menu
01:42:45 ◼ ► so when i'm in a youtube window there is a new personal window keyboard shortcut that is option
01:42:51 ◼ ► shift command zero okay all right i mean that's cool to know but what i would like i would like
01:43:00 ◼ ► is to say no no no command n always means personal window and then give me another shortcut for my
01:43:08 ◼ ► others it's the default i don't know what it would be but like command n or option shift command one
01:43:14 ◼ ► it's like they're not like that's hard for me to remember you know what i mean like like they're
01:43:19 ◼ ► quite different those those window shortcuts but like for me while i find this frustrating it is
01:43:25 ◼ ► not surprising because i've been a tab groups user and some of the way that tab groups defaults work
01:43:30 ◼ ► has been weird i am at least getting what i want out of this which is i'm able to to move things
01:43:36 ◼ ► away and i will say as well like especially on ios the fact that if i want to go from one profile to
01:43:42 ◼ ► another is multiple taps i actually like that because it's adding a hurdle for me to then go
01:43:46 ◼ ► to one of my work profiles while i'm on my iphone so it's like i like those things sometimes like
01:43:52 ◼ ► make it just a little bit harder for me to get to the work that i maybe shouldn't be doing at that
01:43:57 ◼ ► time so yeah i agree i also want to add in one thing that i know you won't use but i am happy
01:44:02 ◼ ► about which is the predictive text stuff from ios and mac os is also from ios is also on mac os so
01:44:09 ◼ ► i can press the space bar to finish words and sometimes sentences which i'm really happy about
01:44:13 ◼ ► because i love that feature and it's great here too i i maybe didn't know this or miss this that
01:44:20 ◼ ► they were bringing the transformer model to the mac i assume this is probably an apple silicon only
01:44:24 ◼ ► feature but i started typing i was like oh it's there and i could press the space bar and have to
01:44:29 ◼ ► type less and i love it um we are running long today so i'm going to bring in an ask upgrade
01:44:36 ◼ ► question now into this segment oh instead of doing our upgrade today so half one and a half lasers
01:44:42 ◼ ► uh we haven't actually left the details so we're like we're like a stack in now jb asks have you
01:44:48 ◼ ► tried running electron apps like slack or discord as a sonoma safari web app i'm looking forward to
01:44:54 ◼ ► doing so in order to reduce memory usage and improve battery life on my machine but i'm curious
01:44:59 ◼ ► if it works well in practice i don't understand how this would be better um you know web apps are
01:45:07 ◼ ► web apps i think i think that there's some misconceptions here from jb about exactly how this
01:45:12 ◼ ► thing works and the resource load yeah i think it would be kind of similar the other problem is that
01:45:18 ◼ ► you're also losing features so like slack doesn't let you as far as i could tell switch between
01:45:22 ◼ ► instances so you just have to have like multiple windows open for each of your slack instances i
01:45:27 ◼ ► also don't understand why you wouldn't just download i mean like i know like the electron
01:45:31 ◼ ► electron like just download slack the only thing that i have found as a as a problem with
01:45:37 ◼ ► electron apps per se is like some that i use is every update is like 250 megabytes right because
01:45:43 ◼ ► you're basically re-downloading the entire thing every time like that could be annoying but yeah
01:45:47 ◼ ► give it a shot i have tried it and what i found is that i hate it and so i have not used it for
01:45:54 ◼ ► an extended amount of time in order to uh like it just doesn't work the way i use slack or discord
01:46:01 ◼ ► it just doesn't work that way and you end up in a situation where i've got a substandard slack or
01:46:05 ◼ ► discord experience and running those apps don't bother me running them in safari or standalone
01:46:13 ◼ ► safari that they bother me so i'm not going to do it so i i can't report back and say oh yes but
01:46:19 ◼ ► memory usage and battery life improved i i can't answer that question for you if it works for you
01:46:24 ◼ ► give it a try but i don't have an answer there i think that they're inferior experiences and that
01:46:29 ◼ ► the the apps actually are better um i did i was impressed with the gmail web app you know i used
01:46:34 ◼ ► a mail plane for a long time to put up sort of like an app wrapper around gmail and it did a
01:46:40 ◼ ► bunch of things that the gmail web app obviously doesn't do but i was impressed that they are using
01:46:44 ◼ ► all of the sort of like app detection stuff so that apple uh has built in so like when you open
01:46:50 ◼ ► gmail in the new safari you get a little thing at the top about a banner that says would you like to
01:46:54 ◼ ► open this in its own app wrapper basically and it'll save it they all save to user your user
01:47:00 ◼ ► folder slash applications which is funny so it's not it's not in your regular applications folder
01:47:05 ◼ ► but yeah oh yeah because this is i was actually going to ask you a question because like yeah
01:47:12 ◼ ► the the way you do this is you invoke a menu command said add to doc right add to doc and i
01:47:18 ◼ ► don't want them in my dock necessarily yeah well it's very much like shortcuts where you add it to
01:47:22 ◼ ► the dock and what it does is it actually puts it in use your user folder slash applications
01:47:27 ◼ ► and then you can take it out of the dock so okay so i've had a weird thing happening where
01:47:31 ◼ ► i created a couple of these apps just to try them out right and remove them from the doc and then
01:47:37 ◼ ► they i thought they disappeared and now when i go to google docs it's like hey do you want to open
01:47:43 ◼ ► the web app and i'm like what are you talking about because i thought i deleted it well obviously
01:47:46 ◼ ► i haven't but it's not in the applications folder but why would i assume folder applications
01:47:52 ◼ ► somewhere else along with shortcuts and steam apps that's where they all go uh they're all in there
01:47:58 ◼ ► they've done it that way why don't they put it in the applications folder i don't know i think you
01:48:02 ◼ ► can put it there but it's not there anyway the gmail one it's pretty nice it's not as it's not
01:48:06 ◼ ► as nice as um mail plane because mail plane did lots of like mac keyboard shortcuts and and things
01:48:13 ◼ ► that when you're fully integrated with the mac system you could do but you know what if mail
01:48:17 ◼ ► plane had died and mime stream hadn't come um i would have this would have been like a moment of
01:48:23 ◼ ► if mail plane then died i would be like ah i can use gmail and it's close enough but i i'm all in on
01:48:28 ◼ ► my stream now so it doesn't it doesn't matter but like i think it's cool i'm a big fan of this idea
01:48:33 ◼ ► of the single site browser i've been for a while i'm glad that apple has finally embraced it because
01:48:37 ◼ ► i one of the things i hate the thing i hate the most about like oh rely on this website like it's
01:48:43 ◼ ► an app is it's just another window or it's just another tab in safari and like i'm using safari
01:48:48 ◼ ► all day it's so easy to close a tab close a window and you're like ah but my thing just disappeared
01:48:54 ◼ ► and i kind of would prefer app style management right where it's like oh no gmail is in its own
01:49:00 ◼ ► little you know quote unquote app it lives over there i can hide it or show it as i choose i can
01:49:06 ◼ ► command tab to it and it's not one of my many open safari windows and you know i i'm a minimalist i
01:49:12 ◼ ► don't like many open safari windows but the idea that like that web app just lives in its own
01:49:17 ◼ ► little space i really like that i've always liked that and so for apple to embrace it is really good
01:49:23 ◼ ► um but yes look in look in uh your user folders applications folder to discover surprise there
01:49:29 ◼ ► might be things in there that's where they are i had no idea and that's when you add shortcuts
01:49:33 ◼ ► to the dock it's the same thing you can just take them right out of the dock but now you've got a
01:49:37 ◼ ► clickable like application in in finder i want to finish this conversation by uh quoting from your
01:49:45 ◼ ► from your conclusion you say i sort of miss the days when every mac os version would bring massive
01:49:51 ◼ ► changes to the entire concept of the operating system but i also kind of dumped two decades in
01:49:56 ◼ ► stability should be a hallmark of the modern mac os but apple should never stop striving to make
01:50:01 ◼ ► the experience better that's what mac os sonoma manages to accomplish yeah i mean if every update
01:50:08 ◼ ► was like this one i think i'd be pretty happy it they're they're importing all of the um platform
01:50:14 ◼ ► features from across ios ipad os and mac os they added some nice detail work to mac features they
01:50:19 ◼ ► made sure that some of the ios features work better or differently on the mac you know it could
01:50:24 ◼ ► it be more yes but on one level as i just as i said in that thing that you read um i don't need
01:50:31 ◼ ► it to be more like i don't need it i don't need more i need it to be stable and i need it to be
01:50:36 ◼ ► nicer over time um and and sonoma for me that's what sonoma is it's nicer and um there are a lot
01:50:44 ◼ ► of surprisingly nice little details that give me actually hope for apple how apple views the mac
01:50:51 ◼ ► like that they took the extra effort to build these features i i i love that i would also just
01:50:59 ◼ ► like to say that i'm very thankful that it came out in september like i know it must be really
01:51:03 ◼ ► hard to get all this stuff to match up but i'm just happy that i'm able to take advantage of all
01:51:09 ◼ ► of the cross-platform features within seven days of each other rather than a month like i'm sure
01:51:15 ◼ ► when mac os has to go into october there's a good reason for it but i just want to note that when
01:51:20 ◼ ► they are able to do them close to each other i just think it's really nice and i'm very happy
01:51:24 ◼ ► for it because then because if that would have happened you know like i maybe would have turned
01:51:27 ◼ ► on profiles on my iphone and then it's like well now i can't use my browser on my mac either so
01:51:33 ◼ ► i'm actually really happy i didn't turn that feature on which you can turn on on your iphone
01:51:38 ◼ ► that's the first place but it's like buried in settings you can send us your feedback follow-up
01:51:44 ◼ ► and questions we will do more ask upgrade next week over at upgrade feedback.com you can check
01:51:49 ◼ ► out jason's reviews and all of his work over at sixcolors.com and here he's podcast at the
01:51:54 ◼ ► incomparable.com and here on relay fm where you'll hear my shows as well you can check out my work
01:51:59 ◼ ► cortexbrand.com also we're on mastodon jason is at jay snell on zeppelin.flights i am at i mike i
01:52:06 ◼ ► m y k e on mike.social you can find upgrade as upgrade at relay fm.social that's where you can
01:52:13 ◼ ► see video clips of the show but also probably best served on tik tok instagram and youtube
01:52:19 ◼ ► where we are at upgrade relay we're also on threads i'm i mike jason is jason l thank you
01:52:25 ◼ ► to our members who support us of upgrade plus you can get longer ad-free versions of this show each
01:52:30 ◼ ► and every week by going to getupgradeplus.com i think today we're going to talk about the fact
01:52:35 ◼ ► that we're trying full video episodes of the show which you can find on youtube thank you to our