555: A Very Eventful Day


00:00:00   I have something that makes me a little uncomfortable to report to you at this moment.

00:00:05   Now I'm uncomfortable. I don't know if I want to know.

00:00:08   There's no water in my closet.

00:00:09   Yeah, right?

00:00:10   No, there's five gallons. No. Different closet on the floor. But no, I actually have been for the last day or so kind of enjoying the fine woven case.

00:00:26   You know, I don't have a problem with that. I didn't... I would say I actively disliked it, but it wasn't the visceral hatred that everyone else has.

00:00:37   I thought it was fine, but...

00:00:40   And it's woven.

00:00:41   And it's woven. But it's certainly not worth the $60 price tag to me. But I don't think that's... I would say that's a lukewarm take. I don't think that's a hot take.

00:00:51   I do have the issue... First of all, I'm loving the USB-C lifestyle with these new phones.

00:00:57   Especially because I upgraded my phone and Tiff's phone at the same time, and our kid doesn't have a phone yet, so that's the whole family.

00:01:06   Yep. You and I are living the best life.

00:01:08   Yeah, so it's great. So we were able to get rid of almost every lightning cable in almost every place that we had one.

00:01:16   Cars, all the different charging locations around the house.

00:01:20   What about when you have to charge your mouse?

00:01:21   So here's the problem, right? So basically, I think I'm only gonna really need a lightning cable at my desk.

00:01:30   I've already removed some things. The way I use my laptop as a desktop, I have one cable that comes down and out front from the display.

00:01:41   And that has always been my desk iPhone cable for when I have to plug in my phone for Xcode or whatever. And that's always been lightning.

00:01:47   And that would also then, occasionally I would unplug it from the phone and charge up the trackpad and the mouse that I have here.

00:01:53   Both of which need lightning.

00:01:54   Right, right, right.

00:01:55   Well now, I just replaced that cable with a USB 3.0 or 3.1 Gen 2x2 Xbox Series S, X1, whatever the heck the modern USB cables are called.

00:02:07   Right, right, right.

00:02:08   So now I have this problem where now I have, like my ports are full, I want to charge stuff on my desk sometimes, so I guess I'm gonna have to get either one of those USB-C to lightning hats for the cable.

00:02:21   Or I guess just have a separate lightning cable somewhere for my unsightly keyboard and mouse charging or trackpad and mouse charging at some point.

00:02:29   Anyway, all this is to say, this arrangement was great until I tried to plug in this USB-C 3.0 QRS-DUV cable into my phone through the fine woven case hole.

00:02:42   And it does not fit.

00:02:44   Oh noes. Oh noes. That's no good. That's not fun yet.

00:02:49   So I'm jumping ahead actually, but I guess I will tease instead, I'll be a professional podcaster and I'll tease that I finally have committed to semi-progrudgingly a case on my phone.

00:03:00   And the USB-C hole is quite large and I am quite happy with that particular portion of the case.

00:03:06   And also I should point out that, speaking of earlier, Craig Hockenberry, he has found some sort of like Medusa multi-headed cable that he swears by.

00:03:14   I don't think I'll be able to find it for the show notes, but if somebody points me to it, I will link it in the show notes even retroactively.

00:03:21   But there's some Medusa thing that he swears by that apparently is very good.

00:03:24   There are a bunch of them, but I don't understand how anybody can tolerate them because it is the definition of untidy cable mess.

00:03:32   There is no way to use it tightly because you will only plug in one of those.

00:03:35   And the other ones are just going to be like dangling out there at right angles, wiggling all around, getting in the way, clacking into your screen.

00:03:41   It's just soap. It's like, "Do not want. Do not want."

00:03:45   Yeah, also those multi-head or adaptable cables tend to only be USB 2.

00:03:51   And if I'm going to have USB 2 speeds, I might as well use Apple's nice little woven cable the phone came with.

00:03:56   So that's probably what I'm going to end up doing, just tolerate the lower speeds or go back to caseless or get a case with a bigger USB-C hole.

00:04:02   But anyway, I understand the fine woven case better now with some time.

00:04:08   Honestly, I was going to return it and I missed the return window. So I'm stuck with it now.

00:04:12   So I decided, let me actually try to use it.

00:04:16   When I compare it to the Peak Design case, by the way, follow up on that, the thing we talked about last week about Peak Design and possibly recalling their cases or issuing free replacements, they apparently are actually going to do that.

00:04:28   There's been a little more concrete statements from them on that since then, so that's apparently going to happen and that's awesome.

00:04:34   Anyway, I've been kind of switching off between the Peak Design case, the fine woven and my, just no case.

00:04:42   And I love the way the phone feels caseless. I love the way it feels with the Peak Design case a little bit more than with the fine woven.

00:04:54   But the Peak Design case has worse buttons and is heavier and bigger.

00:05:00   And so the fine woven actually provides some protection.

00:05:06   But it's really thin and light compared to the bigger Peak Design case because it's more made for a more rugged lifestyle than I actually lead.

00:05:14   But if I'm going to have a case at all, which I think I'm still going to go back and forth on, but if I'm going to have a case at all, the fine woven I think is actually, it fits my needs better than I expected it to as long as I never mess up the back.

00:05:26   But as previously stated, I never look at the back of my phone. So maybe I just won't know or won't care once I finally do mess up this wonderful fine texture.

00:05:35   But so far it's actually not as bad as I thought it would be.

00:05:41   That's a very, very ringing endorsement. You could say it's, as we've said before, the ultra fine woven case.

00:05:48   Also, kind of just as a curiosity, I decided to weigh and measure the phone with the Peak Design case and with the fine woven.

00:05:59   When I add the Peak Design case to the 15 Pro, it makes it almost the size and weight of the Pro Max.

00:06:06   Cases add a decent amount of bulk and you don't often think about it.

00:06:11   But when you're talking about the difference between the phones being not that much size and not that many grams anymore, cases can actually jump that difference for you.

00:06:23   So I've been really enjoying using the phone caseless because it feels so good in the hand and it is so much lighter.

00:06:29   When I add the Peak Design case to it, it actually makes it substantially noticeably bigger and heavier.

00:06:35   It doesn't make it feel impossible or anything, but you do really notice that bulk. Whereas the fine woven case is kind of in the middle.

00:06:43   You don't not notice it, but it's substantially more palatable and doesn't feel like you're ruining the gains we've made with this phone generation as much as the Peak Design case.

00:06:54   So that's why I think if I'm going to have a case at all, which is still up for debate, but if I'm going to have a case at all,

00:07:00   I think the fine woven or something else that's thin and light might be the better move.

00:07:05   What are you going to do about the fact that you can't plug in the cable?

00:07:08   Probably going to either take a Dremel to it and hope for the best or I really shouldn't do that because I would mess it up.

00:07:13   You can get a cable that will fit. You just have to shop based on the size of the connector.

00:07:18   I know. I was trying to have all the same cables. I had this grand goal of like, "Alright, I'm going to have all of my charging USB-C cables be white."

00:07:26   Because I have these wonderful Anker ones that I really like that are super flexible and nice.

00:07:30   Like, "Alright, I'm going to have all of the charging USB-C's be white and all the data ones be black."

00:07:34   Oh, that's clever.

00:07:35   So that way I can tell quickly, you know, does this cable support fast data or not?

00:07:39   And so I had, I figured these two cables out on Amazon that had good reviews or good companies.

00:07:44   And so I'm already, it's already ruined.

00:07:48   Like now I'm already got to throw away or move or reassign these black cables that I got to different roles or get a different one from my desk.

00:07:56   Then I got to keep it straight. It's a whole thing. So all my plans are ruined.

00:08:00   Did you order this before or after I told my story about the thing not fitting?

00:08:03   Before.

00:08:04   Oh, that's what you get.

00:08:07   Buckle up, everyone, because we are going on a journey.

00:08:12   Jon, what's going on?

00:08:14   I think about six months ago on this program, I discussed the bug I was experiencing.

00:08:19   I think I brought up on the show because I had had a breakthrough at that point.

00:08:23   I don't remember how old it is.

00:08:25   My recollection is that either I had this breakthrough around Mac OS 13.3 or that's when I started noticing the bug.

00:08:34   But either way, the bug is this.

00:08:36   Sometimes I'll be dragging a window around and it will go like real slow, like it's going through molasses, like it's not keeping up with my cursor.

00:08:42   I'll grab a window and I'll move it and my cursor will move an inch and the window will be like, "All right, I'm coming. I'll get there eventually."

00:08:48   For a while, I'm like, "Oh, this is some kind of weird thing. I'll just restart and that will fix it."

00:08:53   Then the restarts were fixing it.

00:08:55   Eventually I figured out this bug only happens when I have more than one user logged into the computer.

00:09:00   I figured that out. It just occurred to me.

00:09:02   Why does it get fixed by restart?

00:09:04   Well, when I restart, I just log into my account and there's only one account logged in.

00:09:07   Eventually, I go over to my wife's account, log into her account to go to the photo library.

00:09:11   This was before iCloud showed a photo library, but I still go over there because so much stuff isn't shared.

00:09:15   Eventually, I would log into my wife's account and then the bug would happen and I figured it out.

00:09:20   I filed this with Apple.

00:09:22   I think actually I did file it before that and I thought it was something different.

00:09:27   Then I'm like, "Okay, now I know what it is, Apple. It's easy for you to reproduce. You just got to log in with more than one user."

00:09:32   Anyway, that was six months ago.

00:09:34   Obviously, no response on the bug report because obviously.

00:09:38   But I was like, "You know, this is still bothering me."

00:09:41   When Sonoma betas were released, remember I said on the show, I loaded the latest Sonoma beta and I think my bug is gone.

00:09:47   Because I tried it on my Sonoma external disk that I boot from and I couldn't reproduce the bug anymore.

00:09:54   I said at the time, "Either they fixed it in Sonoma or it's just because my Sonoma external boot disk was a clean install."

00:10:02   I said, "Well, I'll find out which one of those things it is when Sonoma is released for Realsy Reals."

00:10:06   I put it on my main boot drive.

00:10:09   So Sonoma was released.

00:10:11   After last week's show, I did put it on my main boot drive.

00:10:14   The very first thing I did was log into a second account and tested whether the bug was still there.

00:10:19   It was still there.

00:10:21   I said, "Nooooo!"

00:10:23   I was so confident that it was going to be fixed because it was fixed in that beta.

00:10:29   I started to question everything.

00:10:30   I'm like, "Was it really fixed in that beta or did I not notice that I only logged in?"

00:10:35   But I'm pretty sure it was fixed in that.

00:10:37   I don't understand it.

00:10:38   So anyway, I'm like, "No, it's still there.

00:10:40   It's still there in Sonoma."

00:10:41   So now I'm going back into feedback and digging up my bug.

00:10:44   I'm like, "Yeah, there's still no activity on this bug and it's still here."

00:10:47   I had basically forgotten about it because I'm like, "Oh, it'll be fixed in Sonoma.

00:10:50   I don't have to worry about it."

00:10:51   But it's not.

00:10:52   So I was stewing on it for a while.

00:10:55   Eventually I decided, "You know what?

00:10:57   Every time I talk about YouTube, you're like, 'Oh, there's some weird thing you got.

00:10:59   It must be your Mac Pro or whatever.

00:11:00   You know, you make stupid jokes about it."

00:11:02   That's how we sound.

00:11:03   Yeah.

00:11:04   I'm like, "Oh, I have a problem."

00:11:05   And I don't hear about other people having the problem either, which is why you were

00:11:08   like, "Oh, it must be an Intel thing or it must be because you have a weird Mac Pro or

00:11:11   you have such a strange setup or whatever."

00:11:12   So I'm like, "You know what?"

00:11:13   This problem only shows up when you have at least three graphics cards in your computer.

00:11:16   Yeah, I'll get to that.

00:11:18   Actually, even before that, let me rewind a little.

00:11:21   Once I found out that this happened in Sonoma, I'm like, "It must have been the fact that

00:11:27   it was a clean install."

00:11:28   Like, I was still saying it was fixed in that Sonoma beta, but that was like booting off

00:11:32   an external disk that had nothing on it, right?

00:11:33   So it must be some third-party software, or cruft, or crap that's on my boot disk that's

00:11:38   doing it.

00:11:39   And so I think I spent a couple of weeks just tearing third-party software out of my Mac.

00:11:44   Just everything.

00:11:45   Previously, when we discussed this, I had ripped out all Adobe software because I thought

00:11:48   it was that, but it wasn't.

00:11:49   I purged Adobe from my system.

00:11:51   It didn't help.

00:11:52   But anyway, I'm going through the /library folder.

00:11:55   Not tilde/library, but just plain old /library because this bug is reproducible when you

00:11:58   log into fresh accounts.

00:11:59   I have these test1 and test2 accounts that have nothing in them on my boot disk.

00:12:05   It's not tilde/anything, but /library has lots of crap in it.

00:12:08   I'm deleting the unsanity window shade .ape files in my /library directory.

00:12:14   Stuff that predates your use of the Mac, probably.

00:12:17   You don't remember.

00:12:18   I mean, that stuff was inert.

00:12:20   It wasn't doing anything.

00:12:21   But I'm just removing everything.

00:12:23   I got to the point where I'm diffing my /library against the /library that's on the Sonoma

00:12:27   Beta external drive.

00:12:29   I'm like, "What's, you know, recursive diff?

00:12:33   What third-party stuff is in here?

00:12:34   What could it possibly be?"

00:12:37   And then, with the course of doing that, I said, "Well, you know, I don't really want

00:12:40   to be diffing against the last Sonoma Beta that's on my external disk.

00:12:46   I should really update that external disk to the release version of Sonoma, just because

00:12:50   what's the point?

00:12:51   If I find out that something is different about the Beta, that doesn't mean it's the

00:12:54   same as the release, right?"

00:12:56   So I updated my external drive to Sonoma.

00:12:59   I erased the disk.

00:13:00   I just erased it entirely and put Sonoma release on it.

00:13:03   And I made two test accounts that are not even logged into any kind of Apple IDs, test

00:13:07   one and test two, on that Sonoma thing.

00:13:11   And when I did that, I booted into it.

00:13:13   I'm like, "Now that I'm in here, let me just confirm that on this clean install, it doesn't

00:13:16   happen."

00:13:17   And I tested it on the clean install, and I was able to reproduce it.

00:13:21   And that's something.

00:13:22   Maybe I was like, "Was it actually fixed into Beta, or was I wrong?

00:13:26   I don't understand how I could be wrong.

00:13:27   I have plenty of experience with this bug, but was I really only logged into one account?"

00:13:31   But anyway, regardless of whether my memory is faulty or whatever, Sonoma release on a

00:13:37   erased disk with two fresh user accounts that have nothing to do with my life or anything

00:13:42   and are not signed into any Apple IDs.

00:13:45   Reproducible.

00:13:46   That's when I started thinking about hardware.

00:13:48   Marco was making a joke.

00:13:49   He's like, "Oh, you got a weird Mac probe.

00:13:50   I'll use video cards in it."

00:13:51   I'm like, "I've got to do it.

00:13:53   I've got to open this machine up and start tearing stuff out of it."

00:13:57   Because I want to simplify my machine.

00:13:58   So I was suspicious of the video cards too, because hey, it's like a video-related, it's

00:14:02   a graphical thing.

00:14:03   And I do have two video cards in my Mac Pro.

00:14:06   One of them I use to drive my monitor, and the other one is essentially just there for

00:14:08   compute, which I rarely use.

00:14:11   I remember I talked about using it when I was cracking a notes document with GPU-powered

00:14:17   decryption things, and that was cool.

00:14:18   But I'm like, "No, I've got to pull that out."

00:14:19   So I pulled out my unused video cards.

00:14:22   Now there's just one video card in there.

00:14:24   Didn't help, still reproducible.

00:14:27   That's when I took to Mastodon and I said, "Okay, Mastodon, there's got to be somebody

00:14:31   out there who follows me who has a 2019 Mac Pro with the AMD Radeon Vega II video card.

00:14:39   So someone who matches my config."

00:14:42   And I wasn't even asking them to have Sonoma, because I know this reproduced in Ventura

00:14:45   as well.

00:14:46   I said, "Does anybody out there have this configuration?

00:14:48   Please look at this YouTube video."

00:14:50   I recorded a new YouTube video to explain the bug.

00:14:52   I narrated it with some terrible microphone, so it's awful.

00:14:54   I'm sorry, but I will put a link in the show notes.

00:14:57   This is how you reproduce the bug.

00:14:58   Why did you not use your good microphone?

00:15:00   Yes, seriously.

00:15:01   The desk at that point had so much stuff on it that I wasn't ... Because it was a mess.

00:15:08   It's easy-ish to open this thing, but it's a very big and very heavy computer, and it's

00:15:11   got cables attached to it.

00:15:13   You have to disconnect all of those.

00:15:14   There was just no room for me to bring the podcast microphone out.

00:15:17   It was a mess.

00:15:18   I had boxes down here because I'm putting away the video card back in its original box

00:15:21   and everything.

00:15:22   That's why.

00:15:23   Whatever.

00:15:24   I don't care.

00:15:25   Of course you are.

00:15:26   You're going to have the thing out of the computer for four minutes, and you put it

00:15:27   back in the original box?

00:15:28   No, I didn't put it back in.

00:15:29   It's up in the attic now.

00:15:30   Oh, okay.

00:15:31   I take it back.

00:15:32   I figured it's better for cooling.

00:15:35   Practically speaking, I wasn't using that extra GPU compute power if I ever needed it,

00:15:38   and I can put it back in.

00:15:40   Anyway, I asked on Mastodon, "Someone out there, do you have the same config?"

00:15:45   People are like, "Oh, I've got one.

00:15:46   I'll try it," or whatever.

00:15:48   I think the instructions in my video are adequate for anyone to reproduce it.

00:15:52   That began a very eventful day of me going back and forth on Mastodon trying to figure

00:15:58   this out.

00:15:59   Here is where things turn.

00:16:00   A bunch of people said, "Oh, I have a Mac Pro, and I'll try it," and I was waiting for

00:16:03   them.

00:16:04   Whatever.

00:16:05   They're going to try it today, tomorrow, whatever.

00:16:06   At one point, a friend of the show, Steve Drouton-Smith, said, "I can't reproduce on

00:16:09   my M1 at all.

00:16:10   I would be curious to hear if it can repro on any Intel machine or with any AMD GPU."

00:16:17   I've heard this from so many people.

00:16:18   "I can't reproduce this.

00:16:19   It must just be your weird setup," or whatever.

00:16:22   Then he continues, "What kind of mouse/trackpad are you using, and what screen resolution?"

00:16:28   My mind stuck on that first sentence.

00:16:30   "What kind of mouse/trackpad are you using?"

00:16:33   I'm like, "You know what?

00:16:35   I hadn't considered that at all at this point.

00:16:38   Why would I?"

00:16:39   As soon as he said it, my mind latched onto him and said, "Oh my God."

00:16:45   I disconnected my mouse from my computer.

00:16:47   I went over to my wife's computer.

00:16:49   I took her mouse, which is an old Logitech thing with a little USB-A dongle thing.

00:16:54   I brought it over to my computer, connected her mouse to my computer, and could not reproduce

00:16:59   the bug.

00:17:00   So, it's your old, stupid mouse that's the problem?

00:17:04   I'm like, "Yeah."

00:17:05   I posted it on my mouse, and I'm like, "I cannot believe this, but it's my stupid Microsoft

00:17:08   mouse that I've replaced once under warranty.

00:17:11   It's the stupid mouse!"

00:17:12   I did have the hardware problem with the mouse.

00:17:13   I got it replaced under warranty.

00:17:15   I bought a backup of it.

00:17:17   I remember, I like this mouse because I like the shape of it.

00:17:19   I like how it feels, I like everything about it.

00:17:21   Apparently, I'm like, "It's the stupid mouse!

00:17:23   It wasn't the operating system at all.

00:17:24   That's why nobody can reproduce it, because they don't have my stupid mouse.

00:17:27   It's got to be the stupid mouse."

00:17:30   I was annoyed, but I felt an incredible amount of relief.

00:17:33   The eureka moment, seeing the bug, I was like, "I can't reproduce it anymore!

00:17:36   My wife's mouse!"

00:17:37   It's just an old, crappy Logitech mouse.

00:17:38   Nothing special about it.

00:17:39   "I can't reproduce it with her mouse.

00:17:41   That must have been it.

00:17:42   It must have been my mouse."

00:17:44   Being a career programmer, I didn't let it go with that and say, "I'm satisfied that

00:17:49   I've solved this problem.

00:17:50   Let me just close that feedback and say, 'Never mind, Apple.

00:17:53   It was my stupid mouse.

00:17:54   You don't have to worry about it.

00:17:55   I'm closing this feedback.'"

00:17:56   I think I already made that mistake once when I closed this, but I thought it had been fixed.

00:17:59   Anyway, I'm like, "If it really is the mouse, this should be pretty easy to confirm."

00:18:04   Over the course of the day, I did a long series of experiments.

00:18:09   It was a depressing series of experiments, because I'm not going to go through it all.

00:18:13   You can follow the threads en masse if you really want to.

00:18:16   But it is a rollercoaster.

00:18:17   Lots of people are still finding the original, and I'm like, "Oh, it's my mouse!

00:18:19   I'm glad you figured it out!"

00:18:21   I'm like, "Keep reading."

00:18:23   Here's the deal with this book.

00:18:26   Has nothing to do with my Mac Pro.

00:18:28   Has nothing to do with Intel.

00:18:30   Also, kinda sorta has something to do with my mouse, but not in the way that you think.

00:18:37   Over the course of the day, many people were able to reproduce it, and based on their responses,

00:18:42   I was able to reproduce it.

00:18:43   Here are all the places and ways that I was able to reproduce it.

00:18:47   I reproduced it on my Mac Pro, of course, in a clean install of Sonoma, and in my regular

00:18:52   install.

00:18:53   And by the way, on the clean install, the reason I do that clean install is, that installation

00:18:57   has zero third-party software on it.

00:19:00   Nothing.

00:19:01   No apps, no nothing.

00:19:02   It does not have a shred of software from anybody other than Apple on it, by design.

00:19:07   Everybody who was saying it must be a kernel extension, or a logic tech driver, or whatever,

00:19:11   some people did say, when you plug in the mouse, it must download a driver from logic

00:19:15   tech.

00:19:16   I'm like, I'm not sure about that, but anyway.

00:19:18   I was able to reproduce it on my Intel MacBook Air, running Ventura.

00:19:21   I was able to reproduce it on my wife's Mac Studio, which is an M1 Macs running Sonoma.

00:19:26   I was able to reproduce it on all of those computers, with the following mice.

00:19:31   LogicTech M705, LogicTech MX Master 3, LogicTech MX 300, Microsoft Precision Mouse, connected

00:19:37   through USB and Bluetooth, and Apple Mighty Mouse.

00:19:41   I was trying to find an Apple Mouse, surprisingly difficult in my attic.

00:19:44   I know where one is, but I'm not getting it, because my Mac Pro came with the Apple Mouse,

00:19:48   but it's never been opened, and I'm not taking that out.

00:19:51   Nobody in your house believes in the Magic Trackpad?

00:19:55   That's the thing.

00:19:56   I said, let me go get my wife's old 5K iMac, and I opened the box, she bought that with

00:20:00   a trackpad.

00:20:01   So it didn't come with an Apple Mouse, it came with an Apple Trackpad.

00:20:05   And it wasn't in the box, she must have it somewhere.

00:20:09   This is over the course of the day, because at first I thought, it's just my mouse, my

00:20:12   mouse is broken, and then I'm like, oh, but it only happens on my mouse when connected

00:20:14   through USB, so it must be a USB thing and not Bluetooth, but then I was able to reproduce

00:20:18   it in Bluetooth.

00:20:19   Now here are the parameters, here are the interesting parts of this.

00:20:23   And that's the reason why this is still a legit Apple bug, but the reproduction parameters

00:20:28   are interesting.

00:20:29   The "easiest" way to reproduce this is of course the way I saw it first.

00:20:35   On my Mac Pro, with my Microsoft mouse, connected through USB, which is how I use it, that reproduces

00:20:42   super easy.

00:20:43   And the steps are basically, make sure these two users are logged in.

00:20:48   One of the users, nothing.

00:20:50   Nothing open on them.

00:20:51   They don't have to have any apps open, any windows open, just nothing.

00:20:54   They're just logged in.

00:20:55   No third party software.

00:20:56   On the second user, open 25 windows.

00:20:59   Any windows in any app.

00:21:00   Doesn't matter what it is.

00:21:02   And then just grab any window and try to move it, and you'll reproduce the bug.

00:21:06   And this is, I try to make this clear in the video, but like, this is not about the system

00:21:10   being overloaded, hot, runaway processes.

00:21:14   The system is idle.

00:21:15   Nothing is happening.

00:21:16   Activity monitor before you begin dragging a window around shows nothing.

00:21:20   0% everything.

00:21:21   Nothing.

00:21:22   Steve Trouton Smith actually made an app that just opens NSWindows with nothing in them.

00:21:26   As if, you know, if a text edit window isn't lightweight, it doesn't matter what the app

00:21:29   is.

00:21:30   Just a bunch of windows, right?

00:21:31   So 25 windows, 25 windows, complete idle system, no third party software, no applications,

00:21:36   no nothing.

00:21:37   Nothing is running.

00:21:38   25 windows, USB connected Microsoft precision mouse.

00:21:42   On the far end of this spectrum is Logitech mouse connected with their little RF dongle

00:21:48   on an M1 Mac studio.

00:21:52   You need about 200 windows to reproduce it there.

00:21:56   And all those different combinations that I said between all those different mice and

00:21:59   all those different computers, pretty much at every data point, 25, 50, like it's just

00:22:04   a question of how many windows it takes.

00:22:06   What are the parameters there?

00:22:07   A lot of people have theorized that it is the polling rate of the mouse and the higher

00:22:12   the polling rate, the easier it is to reproduce.

00:22:17   Certainly it seems like the speed of the hardware might be a factor because the M1 Mac's Mac

00:22:20   studio is obviously the fastest computer in the house.

00:22:23   And that's the hardest to reproduce on because the Intel MacBook Air is slow and my Mac Pro

00:22:27   is slow these days too.

00:22:29   As far as CPU stuff goes, not GPU.

00:22:33   But basically, and other people are writing in and saying, I've got the magic mouse, I've

00:22:37   got an Apple track pad.

00:22:39   Someone wrote in recently and said they were able to reproduce it using the built-in trackpad

00:22:43   on their MacBook Pro.

00:22:46   So this is an Apple bug.

00:22:48   And the reason most people don't see it, yes, haha, because they don't open a lot of windows,

00:22:52   but the combination that is the easiest to reproduce is with a mouse connected with a

00:22:58   USB cable to an Intel Mac Pro.

00:23:01   That's three people on the planet, John.

00:23:04   Right, because how many people have Mac Pros?

00:23:05   And if they do, how many people use a mouse instead of a trackpad?

00:23:08   But how many use a wired mouse?

00:23:10   It's even hard to find wired mice.

00:23:14   And when my mouse is connected through Bluetooth, I'm like, oh, it doesn't reproduce over Bluetooth.

00:23:18   No, it's just harder.

00:23:19   You just need to open more windows.

00:23:20   And I think a Bluetooth, the Microsoft precision mouse with Bluetooth on my Mac Pro was like

00:23:25   50 windows or 75 for reproduction.

00:23:28   You'll look at the YouTube video.

00:23:30   This is not one of those things where it's like, oh, it's hard to catch and it does it

00:23:33   sometimes or whatever.

00:23:34   It is 100% reproducible trivially instantaneously, always all the time.

00:23:38   It never doesn't do it.

00:23:39   And it is super duper duper obvious.

00:23:41   It's not subtle.

00:23:42   It's not hard to see.

00:23:43   It's not hard to reproduce.

00:23:45   You don't need to do anything fancy.

00:23:47   It's a three step reproduction.

00:23:49   So it was a long depressing day where I thought I had figured, because as much as it would

00:23:53   annoy me if a mouse died, I would love to be rid of this bug and say, it's just my stupid

00:23:57   mouse.

00:23:58   Throw them out the window, buy a new mouse, look behind me, never look back.

00:24:01   But no, it is a legit operating system bug of some kind.

00:24:06   The bad part is that to reproduce on a modern computer with sort of the default Apple setup,

00:24:11   which is like a non-wired mouse or trackpad and a modern computer, you do need a lot of

00:24:17   windows, 100 to 200 depending.

00:24:20   And Apple could look at that and say, okay, fine.

00:24:22   So our window manager freaks out with 200 windows, but we don't care.

00:24:26   And I'll say, but what about my computer that freaks out with 25 windows?

00:24:29   And I spend most of my life with more than 25 windows, which is why I saw it immediately.

00:24:34   Right now I have way more than 25 windows open.

00:24:36   I'm never at just 25 windows.

00:24:38   What about my computer?

00:24:39   Oh, just don't use the USB mouse.

00:24:42   But I want to use USB mouse.

00:24:44   I like it better than Bluetooth.

00:24:47   It's more reliable.

00:24:48   I don't have to worry about charging.

00:24:50   So Apple folks, if you're listening, I know some people looked at this bug and they're

00:24:54   like, they couldn't figure it out, but we as a community have collectively chased this

00:24:58   bug down so far now.

00:25:01   Like how much more do you want?

00:25:02   It's served up on a silver platter.

00:25:04   Reproduction steps are literally three steps that now we've tested all these sorts of parameters.

00:25:09   Like you can do this Apple.

00:25:10   You can reproduce.

00:25:11   I was going to ask you to, before you came on the show today, if you wanted to log into

00:25:14   a second account so you can reproduce this without opening tons of windows, but guess

00:25:17   what?

00:25:18   You can reproduce it while only being logged into one account.

00:25:21   That's how far we chase this down.

00:25:22   And if you're only logged into one account, you guessed it, you got to open more windows.

00:25:27   Right?

00:25:28   Like with two users logged in, you know, 25 windows will do it on Mac with one user logged

00:25:33   in.

00:25:34   I think it would probably take three or 400.

00:25:36   So obviously having the second user logged in makes it way, way, it's not linear.

00:25:38   It's not like, it's not like you divide it by two or whatever, but yeah, some people,

00:25:43   especially I tried it on like my, you know, dinky Intel MacBook Air, you can reproduce

00:25:47   it with one user logged in.

00:25:48   This is just a problem with the window manager, right?

00:25:51   Or something, something having to do with dragging windows around combined with like

00:25:55   the thing that checks for where the cursor is has some kind of terrible performance thing.

00:25:59   And this is new.

00:26:00   This started around Mac OS 13.3 ish.

00:26:03   I can't nail it down exactly.

00:26:05   This didn't happen in 12, 11, 10 or all the other versions.

00:26:08   So something changed.

00:26:09   Something is broken.

00:26:10   Apple needs to fix this.

00:26:12   I would love for something to happen related to this bug.

00:26:15   We'll put the number in the show notes.

00:26:17   If any Apple folks are still listening, it is FB 132 11706.

00:26:22   I filed a new bug.

00:26:23   Every time I find something new, I found a new bug with a better title.

00:26:26   Unfortunately, this one was filed before I did all the stuff you just described there.

00:26:30   So the title is window dragging is lagging and jumping on more than one user logged in.

00:26:34   I don't know what I would call the new bug.

00:26:35   It would be like window dragging is lagging and jumping you and there are a lot of windows.

00:26:40   I mean, I, what, what a, what a terrible, terrible ongoing journey.

00:26:49   I mean, now that, now that the world knows about this kind of, sort of, you'll probably

00:26:56   never see it, but like now that you know it exists, you may find yourself creeping up

00:27:02   to it, like log into a second account and you just may end up with enough windows open

00:27:06   where you just hit that threshold.

00:27:07   And you'd be like, Hmm, is my, because you might look at it and lots of people are saying,

00:27:11   yeah, I had that too.

00:27:12   And my computer is overloaded.

00:27:13   No, that's not it.

00:27:14   That's a different thing.

00:27:15   Your computer being overloaded is an entirely different thing.

00:27:17   And so I think if you guys ever got to the point where you had 75, 150 windows open and

00:27:22   you logged into a second account and then all of a sudden window dragging was weird,

00:27:25   you'd be like, huh, my computer must be overloaded.

00:27:27   Maybe I should reboot and you'd forget about it.

00:27:29   But now you know better.

00:27:30   Now you know that even if your computer was a hundred percent idle and the only thing

00:27:34   open was text edit with that number of windows open, your window dragging is going to be

00:27:39   super lagging.

00:27:40   So all the other fun thing by the way is the, uh, the jumpiness that is in fact the window

00:27:45   snapping thing.

00:27:46   You know, when you drag a window, a Mac OS and a tricycle line itself up with its neighboring

00:27:49   window, they added that and like Sierra something or maybe high Sierra, you can disable that

00:27:53   by holding down the option key.

00:27:55   And when you hold on the option key and drag windows around, the jumping is disappears.

00:27:58   What you're left with is the massive lag.

00:28:00   And basically the massive lag, the jumping is comes from the fact that there's massive

00:28:03   lag and the jumpy, you know, like the snapping is lagging is ahead of where the window actually

00:28:09   is and it flips out and starts going all the place.

00:28:11   Anyway, if you hold on option, you will just get the molasses like lag and knock at the

00:28:15   jumpiness.

00:28:16   So that totally shows that this is a, well, where is the problem?

00:28:19   Is the problem in the window manager or is the problem in the, you know, human interface

00:28:23   device driver thing, probably somewhere in the driver thing because the window service

00:28:27   probably doing the right thing.

00:28:28   It's just probably getting a bogus input from the mouse.

00:28:31   But further news as we continue to track this down, but the last revelation was it's when

00:28:36   more than one user's logged in and the new revelation is actually that just lets you

00:28:40   see it more easily.

00:28:41   And actually every single Mac and every single pointing device in the entire world is susceptible

00:28:46   to this.

00:28:47   It's just a question of what it takes to make it reproduce.

00:28:49   I mean, really, John, this is the, the, the reaping or the, uh, or whatever of your life

00:28:55   choices.

00:28:56   You're using an Intel Mac that you spent too much money on.

00:28:58   You're using a wired mouse.

00:28:59   Like it's 1996.

00:29:00   I mean, hell, you're using a mouse.

00:29:02   Like it's 2003, much less a wired mouse.

00:29:04   Like it's 1996.

00:29:05   I'm never not going to use a mouse.

00:29:07   Never.

00:29:08   Uh, see, I said that I was that guy until five or 10 years ago and I am all in on trackpad

00:29:14   trackpads everywhere, man.

00:29:15   Why?

00:29:16   Anyway, it happens with the trackpad.

00:29:17   Sure.

00:29:18   That's what I'm saying.

00:29:19   Like you could, you could say this is my punishment for opening too many windows, but 25, 25 is

00:29:23   not too many.

00:29:24   Go ahead.

00:29:25   Hit the little, uh, mission control and count your windows.

00:29:26   I bet you all have more than 25 windows open right now.

00:29:29   Not like as in not hidden.

00:29:32   I think I have eight.

00:29:33   Well, yeah, that's the thing.

00:29:34   They do need to be visible.

00:29:35   I suppose you can just do hide others and say, I can do hide others and say, look, I

00:29:37   have one window open.

00:29:38   It's the zoom window, but no, I have five.

00:29:41   I have eight.

00:29:44   All windows, not just the ones that are visible.

00:29:45   Do show all.

00:29:46   Yeah, I have eight show all.

00:29:48   You have eight windows.

00:29:49   Yeah.

00:29:50   I have one Safari window with two tabs.

00:29:51   I have one Chrome window with one, two, three, four, five, six, seven tabs.

00:29:55   Visual studio code, which I use for show notes textual, which is the, um, the IRC app, zoom,

00:30:01   uh, audio hijack, Slack and messages.

00:30:04   That's it.

00:30:05   That's everything.

00:30:06   How many of that?

00:30:07   Eight.

00:30:08   That's only eight.

00:30:09   Oh, actually males.

00:30:10   I'm sorry.

00:30:11   Males hidden.

00:30:12   I'm sorry.

00:30:13   I don't know why you guys buy fancy computers.

00:30:14   You might as well just get an iPad.

00:30:15   Wow.

00:30:16   What are you doing?

00:30:17   What are your 20?

00:30:18   Okay.

00:30:19   Okay.

00:30:20   Tough guy.

00:30:21   Let's let's do it.

00:30:22   Let me hear your 25.

00:30:23   You don't want to do this.

00:30:24   I want to hear your 25 windows.

00:30:26   Let's hear it.

00:30:27   All right.

00:30:28   It's way more than 25.

00:30:29   Oh my gosh.

00:30:30   Google Chrome.

00:30:31   Uh, let's see.

00:30:32   Well, with 3000 tabs, right?

00:30:33   So that's your first problem.

00:30:34   We're not counting tabs.

00:30:35   We're just counting windows.

00:30:36   One, two, three, four, five, six, seven, eight, nine, 10, 11, 12, 13.

00:30:42   Oh my gosh.

00:30:43   Stop.

00:30:44   You have 13 Chrome windows.

00:30:45   What the hell is wrong with you?

00:30:47   So what's the context?

00:30:49   Hold on.

00:30:50   Okay.

00:30:51   I'm not sure, but like, but this is 13 different windows with tabs within each one.

00:30:57   Like what are these different projects you're working on?

00:30:59   Like what's how, why, why the split here?

00:31:02   Oh, why, why do I use a safari and no, no, no.

00:31:06   How do you end up with 13 windows?

00:31:08   Hey, 13 windows for the same browser, each of which has tabs in it.

00:31:12   Yeah.

00:31:13   So there's my main Chrome window, which has a fixed set of tabs in it that never changes.

00:31:16   Right.

00:31:17   So let's ignore that one.

00:31:19   There is the window with a bunch of tabs.

00:31:22   That was when I was trying to debug a call recorder problems.

00:31:25   Call recorder by the way, does not work in Sonoma.

00:31:27   Call recorder or Skype.

00:31:28   I sent a text word email about it.

00:31:29   I'll close that one now.

00:31:31   There is me looking up information about the release date of Ventura and a bunch of tabs

00:31:36   when I was talking to some folks about this, just to try and pin down when this happened.

00:31:41   There is the page with a bunch of tabs related to BBI language servers, cause I was debugging

00:31:46   some issues with the PHP language server, Marco and BBI.

00:31:49   I didn't write it.

00:31:50   I know I'm just saying, why am I doing it?

00:31:52   Why do I, why do I have a PHP language server installed for BBI right now?

00:31:56   All right.

00:31:58   There are a bunch of pages related to pro Unicode because I was doing some research

00:32:01   for a tweet I posted about Unicode stuff.

00:32:03   I can close that one now.

00:32:05   There is a page with a bunch of tabs related to sendable because I was messing with strict

00:32:09   and currency and Xcode.

00:32:10   Maybe we'll touch on that at some point in the future.

00:32:12   That was part of my day today as well.

00:32:15   Yeah.

00:32:16   There are windows, like these windows are like themed there.

00:32:19   Like all the tabs in this window are about sendable, you know, and how do you do, how

00:32:23   do you do sendable with key value observing?

00:32:24   Cause it's an older API.

00:32:25   Anyway, a bunch of tabs like that.

00:32:26   That's the answer.

00:32:27   Don't.

00:32:28   Unfortunately, a lot of my apps are based heavily on key value observing.

00:32:33   There's literally no other way to do it.

00:32:34   Anyway, there is a page open with the YouTube studio and the YouTube pages related to my

00:32:39   video because every time I update the feedback, I put the, what I ever put in the feedback,

00:32:43   I put it in the description of the YouTube video for this bug.

00:32:46   Well, here's the thing though.

00:32:47   I kind of do want to make you go through all of this BS, but what I don't understand is

00:32:53   one, there was a long time ago, I would say roundabouts of May 1st, 2015 that a wise man

00:33:00   once said you should have empathy for the machine.

00:33:02   There's no empathy here.

00:33:04   You don't need all this open.

00:33:06   You don't need all of these open.

00:33:07   You know why there's empathy?

00:33:09   Because I endowed my Mac with 96 gigs of RAM.

00:33:11   I know you can't have that much in your computers, your tiny little computers, but I can have

00:33:14   that much.

00:33:15   I have 64 gigs of RAM.

00:33:16   It's not that different.

00:33:17   Well, I have 96 and there's plenty free.

00:33:20   Oh my gosh.

00:33:21   Anyway, I could continue enumerating them, but yeah, I will clean these up as I go through

00:33:24   and close these things.

00:33:26   But the language server thing from BB edit, for example, I'm not actively pursuing that

00:33:29   now, but occasionally it crashes and stuff.

00:33:30   So I want to leave that open so that when it does crash, I can go consult the, anyway.

00:33:34   By the way, real time follow up, the MacBook pro is currently available with up to 96 gigs

00:33:38   of memory.

00:33:39   Oh, see ya.

00:33:40   It's not yours.

00:33:41   Well, move those goalposts, John.

00:33:44   Keep moving them.

00:33:45   Keep moving them.

00:33:46   No, I said your computers.

00:33:47   Yeah.

00:33:48   He's got, he doesn't have the M2, right?

00:33:49   No, I have the M1, but still like it was never offered with 96, but the M2s are the ones

00:33:53   currently available in the same family and are in our puny little laptop.

00:33:57   Anyway.

00:33:58   Anyway, I have a similar number work, uh, windows open in safari for the same reason.

00:34:02   BB edit, uh, BB edit, how she is too many on two, three, four, five, six, seven, eight,

00:34:08   nine, 10, 11, 12, 13.

00:34:09   Oh my God.

00:34:10   Windows 42 BB edit windows.

00:34:12   42.

00:34:13   Wait, do those have tabs in them?

00:34:16   No, you need an intervention.

00:34:18   You need an intervention.

00:34:19   Now, if you're working on a project, uh, you know, like in like a, you know, a directory

00:34:24   up for a web app or whatever in BB edit, do you, does one window hold like all the files

00:34:29   you just switched between them or I rarely use that interface.

00:34:32   I did when I was, for example, working on the, uh, the CMS stuff, the ATP CMS, I did

00:34:36   the one window project directory.

00:34:38   When you were programming PHP.

00:34:39   Yeah, but that's not what I prefer.

00:34:41   I prefer separate windows as you can see.

00:34:43   I prefer a separate one.

00:34:44   Is this BB at windows at this point, there's a set of BBA windows that I essentially always

00:34:47   have open just always, this is lunacy to me.

00:34:50   I mean, I have that with text made too, but there's like four or three of them at most

00:34:55   times.

00:34:56   Like it's not, yeah, I have a lot more stuff.

00:34:57   Apparently I've gone on.

00:34:58   There's one, there's one Slack window, there's one messages window.

00:35:01   There are two ivory windows.

00:35:04   The amount of like balls I have in the air right now are at an all time high in my life.

00:35:09   Like I've never been busier and doing, dealing with more projects and obligations and tasks

00:35:15   that I'm doing right now.

00:35:17   And I think I have, if I, if I include all the hidden windows, maybe I might have 15

00:35:22   windows open on my entire computer.

00:35:24   Yeah, no, I've got more.

00:35:26   I mean, there's one feedback assistant window, there's one zoom window, one textual window,

00:35:32   one's a system settings window.

00:35:33   How many terminal windows?

00:35:37   About tennis terminal windows.

00:35:38   John, you are aware that you, one can close one of these windows and then reopen them.

00:35:45   I do.

00:35:46   I clean stuff up.

00:35:47   Like in fact, while going through this thing, I closed a bunch of stuff that I was done

00:35:49   with.

00:35:50   I do occasionally go through and close things.

00:35:53   Once a year.

00:35:54   The reason you need a $17,000 Mac pro is because you are incapable of cleaning up your own

00:35:58   mess.

00:35:59   That's not why it's fine.

00:36:01   And by the way, you're saying, Oh, but how do you do that?

00:36:02   Isn't that more than 25 windows and everything broken?

00:36:04   Aha.

00:36:05   But I only have one account logged in.

00:36:06   Oh my God.

00:36:07   So everything's fine.

00:36:08   It would take way more windows than this to bog it down.

00:36:10   Wow.

00:36:11   I don't, I don't, I don't even know.

00:36:12   I know we went over this.

00:36:13   What was that?

00:36:14   Episode 96 I believe.

00:36:15   I remember it.

00:36:16   I got a lot of windows.

00:36:17   I use it.

00:36:18   I use it all.

00:36:19   I use all the screen space.

00:36:20   And I know you know this, but you can actually hide them.

00:36:21   You don't need to see them all at the same time.

00:36:23   But I don't understand why you can't like, I mean, I did write two separate programs for

00:36:28   dealing with windows and pulling them forward and hiding them and making them go away.

00:36:31   Like there's, you know, there's a reason both of my applications have to do with windows.

00:36:35   And the third one I was talking about writing, but can't, it would also have to do with window

00:36:39   management.

00:36:40   I love like, you know, so part of, part of, you know, the, the challenge of writing a

00:36:44   podcast app as a kind of, I would say I would call myself kind of a, a moderately heavy

00:36:49   podcast listener.

00:36:51   Is that there are people who use my app that have collections that are like 10 times the

00:36:56   size of mine.

00:36:57   And so it's hard for me to actually know what the app is going to be like for them.

00:37:01   And it's hard to, to architect the app in such a way that it performs well for them

00:37:04   because I'm not seeing that every day.

00:37:07   John has no such problems with his apps because no one is using John's apps with more windows

00:37:13   than John.

00:37:14   But the thing is what I do get for reports for my thing is people who are using apps

00:37:18   that I've literally never even heard of that do ridiculous things.

00:37:22   Like I don't even know what these apps do.

00:37:24   I've downloaded so many apps because some will say, Hey, I was using this 3d app.

00:37:27   You've never heard of which one that I've downloaded recently.

00:37:29   Maybe it was rhino 3d.

00:37:30   I think I've actually heard of that one.

00:37:31   Maybe it was something different, but forever.

00:37:34   But they'll send me these apps.

00:37:35   There was one that started with an a, there was like some kind of audio editor that was

00:37:38   not audacity.

00:37:39   And they'll send me them and say, just download the demo and do it.

00:37:42   You know, and I do it and I re but like, do you leave it open forever after that?

00:37:45   Like, Oh, I just, I don't know.

00:37:46   I can't figure out how to quit.

00:37:47   No, I mean, I delete that stuff.

00:37:49   I always look at the sea.

00:37:50   Is this going to put crap on my system anyway?

00:37:52   Sometimes I'd boot into another disc to do it because I don't know what they're going

00:37:55   to install, but it was just, anyway, you do get, you still do get reports of like, Hey,

00:37:59   this app does some weird thing that interacts with it.

00:38:01   And that's, those are good reports.

00:38:02   But yeah, in terms of opening windows, a pretty good to go there.

00:38:06   There's the Brent Simmons stories.

00:38:07   They told you as ago that I used to use net news wire and you'll be shocked to learn that

00:38:09   I had a million subscriptions in that news wire.

00:38:12   And he would, uh, I would complain to him about like, Hey, I'm using the app and this

00:38:15   thing is kind of slow.

00:38:16   And he's like, what do you mean it's slow?

00:38:17   It's lightning fast.

00:38:18   I'm like, well, eventually we get to how many subscriptions do you have?

00:38:21   So I think he wrote a blog post about that once.

00:38:23   Like, yeah, there's a computer.

00:38:25   It's I don't like, if you don't put a limit on the amount of things you can have, I will

00:38:29   use the computer to do what computers are good at, which is remember a bunch of stuff

00:38:32   for me.

00:38:33   So I don't have to, John, at what point do you have an, are we the baddies moment?

00:38:38   At what point do you rather than bending everything to your lunatic setup?

00:38:45   25 windows is not a limited set up.

00:38:46   I will stand by that.

00:38:47   I know I have a lot of windows, but 25 is not a lot.

00:38:50   It is just not okay.

00:38:52   I'll let that go.

00:38:53   I mean, because I'm again, look at the video 25 when it's not like, Oh, it gets a little

00:38:56   bit slower at 25 windows.

00:38:57   It is unusable at 25 windows.

00:39:00   Just Matt.

00:39:01   Like, like as an look in the video, at one point I tried to like reset to like, Oh, let

00:39:04   me just drag this window back to where it was.

00:39:06   I can't physically can't put the window back where it was because it is so messed up.

00:39:11   Like watch you've seen this video, like the recording where I, where I said, let me just

00:39:15   put the, I'm trying to put this sticky note back where it was.

00:39:17   I literally can't do it.

00:39:18   It's not like, Oh, you're just annoyed cause it's a little bit laggy when you have a million

00:39:22   windows.

00:39:23   No, it is unusable with 25 with two users logged in.

00:39:25   But again, two years logged in is not unheard of.

00:39:27   And I use that frequently.

00:39:28   So I think my report is legitimate and I think Apple should fix this, but I fear because

00:39:33   I am using an older computer and because it's Intel and because blah, blah, blah, like they'll

00:39:37   say, well, it's so much harder to reproduce on the M ones that we'll just sweep this under

00:39:42   the carpet and say, this is not a big deal.

00:39:44   No one will ever have 200 windows open.

00:39:46   I agree with you that this is a legit problem and it legitimately should be fixed as much

00:39:50   as I'm snorking and giving you a hard time.

00:39:52   And by the way, like forget, forget about like the problem.

00:39:54   This is a sign that something is wrong in the code.

00:39:57   Like it's not like the computer quote unquote can't handle it cause it's just too much.

00:40:00   It should be able to handle it.

00:40:02   This should be nothing.

00:40:03   There's, and it was like in, you know, in Mac OS 10.2 Jaguar, you could have 25 windows

00:40:08   up until the user logged in and it would go fine.

00:40:11   Like I'm not asking it to do it just seems, Oh, you have a lot of windows.

00:40:14   That's kind of like the, uh, the naive person's understanding of computers.

00:40:17   Oh, I think my computer is overloaded because I have too many windows open.

00:40:21   No, that is not a thing.

00:40:23   Like things that you can have one window open with the infinite loop in JavaScript and some

00:40:27   Facebook page.

00:40:28   Yeah, that can probably, you know, make your things, but like the number of windows open

00:40:32   seems like a lot to us because it is like visually oppressive.

00:40:36   But as far as the computer is concerned, 25 empty text at windows is not stressing it

00:40:41   at all.

00:40:42   Just it's not.

00:40:43   That's the thing where it's like you have yourself to blame because you're overloading

00:40:46   the computer.

00:40:47   This is not overloading the computer at all.

00:40:50   I agree with you that this should be fixed.

00:40:52   I agree with you.

00:40:53   It's indicative of a deeper problem, but golly, at some point I wonder if maybe it's time

00:40:58   to rethink your strategy here a little bit there.

00:41:00   Big guy.

00:41:01   So my strategy should be, I'm going to make sure I use less than 25 windows so I can drag

00:41:06   them without, no kidding aside.

00:41:08   I think the strategy is, and this is going to sound snarky and I'm trying to take off

00:41:12   the snark hat.

00:41:13   It was fully on my head earlier, but I'm trying to take it off now.

00:41:16   Like log out of the other user if you're done using whatever.

00:41:20   That's so annoying to do because I go back and forth.

00:41:22   It's so annoying.

00:41:23   How often do you go back and forth?

00:41:25   Well, let me tell you why.

00:41:26   This is related to another book report.

00:41:27   Why do I have to leave my wife's account logged in?

00:41:29   Because if I don't, it will never do face analysis because she has to be logged in for

00:41:33   the conditions to be just right for the stupid face analysis thing to run.

00:41:36   It's like, oh, you know, don't make just don't use the photos app, but make sure you've run

00:41:41   it at least once to launch the photo demons, but the user has to be logged in.

00:41:44   I'm pretty sure if she's not logged in photo analysis will not, photo analysis will not

00:41:48   run against her library.

00:41:51   Why doesn't her library live on her Mac studio?

00:41:55   It does.

00:41:56   It does live on her Mac studio.

00:41:57   So is there a reason she has to be logged into your Mac Pro all the time?

00:42:02   When I, well, she's not logged in all the time, but when I'm working on photo stuff

00:42:05   on my computer and she hasn't launched photos like recently or, and also I'm not sure how

00:42:10   much, how long it takes for that stuff to sync.

00:42:12   Like I'm doing work in the photo library on my computer on her account.

00:42:15   So I don't have to be hogging her computer.

00:42:17   That's the whole point of it.

00:42:18   You know what I mean?

00:42:19   And I could go over to her computer and say, let me launch photos and let me launch activity

00:42:21   monitor and let me make sure, because if she's using her computer photo analysis, these are

00:42:25   going to be like, oh, I can't run now because she's using the computer and I'm only supposed

00:42:27   to run the background priority.

00:42:29   You know, it's, it does help that it is on her computer and I have, when she's at work

00:42:33   gone and tried to make it run on our computer.

00:42:35   But that's one of the reasons why I'm constantly leaving her logged in.

00:42:39   And you know, I don't want to leave her logged in because it makes my windowing experience

00:42:42   terrible, but sometimes I have to leave her logged in.

00:42:44   And anyway, I hop back and forth.

00:42:45   Like let me do something over here.

00:42:46   Let me do something over there.

00:42:47   I wish I could hop back and forth faster.

00:42:49   I kind of wish fast user switching was even faster.

00:42:51   Remember when I used to do the cube rotation effect that I was annoyed that that slowed

00:42:54   me down.

00:42:55   But anyway, the point is these are features of the operating system.

00:42:57   I'm using the computer.

00:42:58   It's supposed to be able to do these things.

00:42:59   I'm not going to like shrink myself down to work around a bizarre bug in the IO subsystem

00:43:06   of the recent versions only of the Mac operating system.

00:43:11   I guess I'd be a little less patient if this hit me.

00:43:13   Like whenever I run into a problem with something that Apple's doing that I can modify some

00:43:21   habit or way I'm using something to just completely set up the problem, I'll usually choose to

00:43:24   do that.

00:43:25   Like yeah, I'll complain about it on the podcast.

00:43:26   I mean there's only one user logged in now.

00:43:28   Like I don't leave, as soon as this bug hit in 13.3 I stopped my old habit of just constantly

00:43:32   leaving her logged in.

00:43:33   For example, on my wife's computer, like every user is logged in all the time because why

00:43:37   wouldn't be because it's just convenient because it's kind of a shared computer.

00:43:41   But yeah, I used to leave multi-users logged in now.

00:43:43   But since this bug happened, what I've changed is I am the only logged in user unless I actually

00:43:49   need to be doing something on her account.

00:43:52   I feel like this is the same as all of us.

00:43:55   When we were all giving Mike garbage because he was having some sort of issue with his

00:43:59   phone and everyone just kept telling him to, you know, what was it, dump everything and

00:44:03   like start a new, I forget the term that we were using for it.

00:44:05   You know, like restore the phone.

00:44:06   Oh, I'd be totally willing to do that if it would fix the problem.

00:44:09   But as we know now it would not.

00:44:10   Well, but I feel like what's happening is we're all saying to you, change the way you're

00:44:13   using the phone or excuse me, using the computer.

00:44:16   And the same way we were saying to him, just try to restore.

00:44:18   Well, John, just try to change the way that you use the, I will not, I will not.

00:44:23   Change it to a way less than 25 windows is a non-starter.

00:44:26   Like just non-stars, never going to happen.

00:44:28   Never.

00:44:29   Like why would I do that?

00:44:30   I don't want 25 windows open on my Mac plus in the finder.

00:44:34   I mean, come on 25 windows.

00:44:37   You don't need, you don't need all of these open concurrently.

00:44:40   You may want them, but you don't need them to be open concurrently.

00:44:43   But that's, but that's what the computer is doing for me.

00:44:45   I don't, I don't, I don't need to have more than one application open at once.

00:44:50   I lived a long time, especially in terms of my former years where only one application

00:44:55   could be open at a time.

00:44:56   You just quit one and launch the other one and it's fine.

00:44:57   But come on, that's what computers are for.

00:44:59   Why not also just like try a different mouse that has a higher limit?

00:45:02   You know, like that, like there are so many, there are so many options that you can easily

00:45:06   sidestep this.

00:45:07   Yeah.

00:45:08   I mean the, the, the limit, unfortunately on my computer going, going to, I've tried all

00:45:12   the mice I have access to, the limit doesn't go up high enough.

00:45:15   I can get it up to like 50 or 75, but like it's not, it's not far enough up there.

00:45:21   Like, Oh, I won't see this anymore.

00:45:22   I'll still see it because it's, it is kind of a slope.

00:45:25   It's not like it doesn't happen.

00:45:26   Then all of a sudden it happens.

00:45:27   There's a gradient, right?

00:45:28   So with 25 you see it less with Bluetooth, with 50 you start to see a little bit more,

00:45:32   with 75 it's back in full force.

00:45:34   It's, it's not great.

00:45:35   And also like Bluetooth, maybe it's because my Mac is farther away.

00:45:38   I don't know.

00:45:39   Like I always feel like Bluetooth is not as reliable and smooth as USB, at least under

00:45:44   the stupid mouse.

00:45:45   And the other mice as we've established, I don't like the shape of them.

00:45:48   Right.

00:45:49   So I like, you know, it's, it's hard.

00:45:50   Like I was all, I was, I actually installed, I was like, okay, I'm going to go Bluetooth

00:45:54   now because Bluetooth solves the problem before I had figured out that Bluetooth didn't solve

00:45:56   the problem.

00:45:58   And I was all ready to go all Bluetooth because I'll, I'll, you know, I'll deal with the lag

00:46:01   of this just solves it or, you know, start shopping for a new mouse.

00:46:04   But once I determined that this didn't solve the problem, like, no, this is, this is not

00:46:07   Apple to fix.

00:46:09   I fully agree with you.

00:46:10   This is a real problem and they should fix it.

00:46:13   However, it's, it's a difference of philosophy of like, what do I do as the person suffering

00:46:17   from this problem?

00:46:18   Like I can bang my head against it forever or I can just sidestep it.

00:46:22   I'm not suffering from it now because only one user is logged in.

00:46:24   Like that's the common case now is only one user is logged in.

00:46:27   And so I don't suffer from it.

00:46:29   Oh my, because with one user logged in, like it's not linear.

00:46:31   It's not, like I said, with one user logged in, it doesn't take twice as many windows.

00:46:34   It takes like five, 10 times as many.

00:46:36   Like right now, one user logged in and I have what, a hundred windows open and it's fine.

00:46:40   So this is how I spend my most of my time using the computer.

00:46:43   It's just that every time I have to go to my wife's account, I basically have to like,

00:46:47   now I'm, I'm intentionally causing this thing to happen and I will be like this for the

00:46:51   rest of the day.

00:46:52   So remember if you're going to move windows around, hide windows for us.

00:46:55   That's the real modification that you guys haven't touched on that I have to do because

00:46:58   remember it's just the visibility of the windows, not the fact that they're open.

00:47:01   So command option H is your friend because that essentially solves the problem.

00:47:04   If you just constantly hide others or option click away from one app to another, it's the,

00:47:09   it's how many windows are visible on the screen because if they're not visible on the screen,

00:47:12   the window server doesn't try to snap to them and doesn't do all that.

00:47:15   Like I actually, I don't know why the visibility of the windows affects the mouse tracking

00:47:19   part, but it does like experimentally visibility of the windows is the determining factor.

00:47:24   So that is the modification of behavior that I probably should be doing more often, hiding

00:47:28   other windows, not closing them.

00:47:30   Oh my word.

00:47:32   At what point are you going to just dedicate a day or two to doing a manual get bisect

00:47:38   and trying to figure out exactly when this was introduced?

00:47:40   I don't have the source code to the operating system.

00:47:42   I know that.

00:47:43   No, no, no, no, no, not a literal one.

00:47:44   I'm saying like, I'm, I'm both kidding and actually not kidding.

00:47:47   You said that it was around what, 13.3 or something like that.

00:47:49   I forget what version it was.

00:47:51   Yeah.

00:47:52   You could go to version 13 to install it, see if it happens.

00:47:55   Version 13 two dot one.

00:47:56   I don't know if that's even a thing, but you know, and you could try doing what is it's

00:48:00   hard to get those installers.

00:48:01   I could do that, but like, honestly, that's like, I don't care.

00:48:05   Like I don't think that's going to help that much.

00:48:06   And if Apple cares, they can figure that like it's their, it's their thing.

00:48:09   Like, well, yes, but here again, like jokes have left the room.

00:48:14   You've put in in inordinate amount of work trying to figure out and narrow down what

00:48:18   this is.

00:48:19   And I commend you as much as I'm giving you a hard time.

00:48:21   I commend you for it because I wouldn't have that fricking patient saying that he would

00:48:24   have.

00:48:25   Exactly.

00:48:26   I mean, I let it, I let it live for like six months figuring out, you know, either it's

00:48:29   not a big deal or it'll be fixed in Sonoma because it seems like it's fixed in Sonoma.

00:48:32   But now that I know that it's not, it came roaring back.

00:48:33   I'm like, no, this needs to be addressed.

00:48:35   Again.

00:48:36   I genuinely admire your tenacity as much as I'm giving you a whole pile of poop.

00:48:40   I genuinely admire your tenacity.

00:48:43   But at this point, like I feel like if Apple isn't doing anything about it now and there's

00:48:48   maybe a bunch of innocent reasons and a bunch of not so innocent reasons.

00:48:50   We don't know if they're, they might be doing stuff about it.

00:48:52   I just don't know.

00:48:53   Yeah.

00:48:54   Wouldn't it be nice if there was some feedback?

00:48:55   Uh, but anyways, six months, right?

00:48:58   Mere six months.

00:48:59   It hasn't even been a decade, but I almost wonder if you went and did this quote unquote,

00:49:03   get bisect and said, it's in 13.2.79 or whatever that I wonder if that would get them to be,

00:49:10   I was going to say less lazy, but that's not fair.

00:49:13   I wonder if that would just get them.

00:49:14   They'd have to like diff the operating system diff Sonoma against 13.1.

00:49:18   Like they don't, because they don't even know what the problem is.

00:49:21   Like I don't, I'm not going to tell them how to debug this because the operating system

00:49:24   is huge as millions of lines of code.

00:49:26   Like you know how many diffs there must be between 13 point something and 14.

00:49:29   That's exactly my point.

00:49:30   If you said it wasn't in 13 three, but it isn't 13 four again, I'm getting these numbers

00:49:34   wrong that narrows the problem space.

00:49:36   Yeah.

00:49:37   Yeah.

00:49:38   I mean it could have been the type of thing that get crept up over time.

00:49:41   That would be a very unfortunate result of me doing that experiment, which was like,

00:49:44   well it's harder to trigger in 13.1 harder still in 13.0 because again, it's not like

00:49:48   a thing where it's on and off.

00:49:50   It was just like a gradient of a badness, depending on how much stuff you're doing.

00:49:57   It's annoying.

00:49:58   I mean, I don't envy them trying to track on this bug.

00:50:00   I'm just trying to help here.

00:50:01   Like I said, the main thing I fear is like, I mean it's a fear, but it was also the type

00:50:05   of thing of like, well, if it's really hard to reproduce on faster or max, eventually

00:50:09   when I get an M three Mac or something or an M four Mac, it'll take 700 windows to reproduce

00:50:14   on and never see it again.

00:50:15   Cause I never had that many.

00:50:16   Oh, you will.

00:50:17   I've never been that high.

00:50:19   You'll hit that limit.

00:50:21   If there is a limit, you'll find it.

00:50:23   I don't think so.

00:50:24   I don't think there is a, like if I need a much bigger screen, there is a crowding.

00:50:30   And remember it's visible windows.

00:50:31   They have to be visible and you know, there's, there's a limit to how many can be visible.

00:50:35   You know what?

00:50:36   Another thing, again, jokes have left the room.

00:50:38   Another thing that I wonder if it'd be worth you trying, and I know you're going to vomit

00:50:41   all over your desk when I bring this up, but what if you tried spaces?

00:50:44   I wonder if, if using spaces and putting, I don't know, all the Chrome windows in one

00:50:49   space, which I will be the first to tell you that that would dramatically change the way

00:50:54   you use your computer.

00:50:55   And I'm not arguing that, but I wonder if that would be at least an interesting way.

00:50:59   No, hide out.

00:51:00   Hide out is way faster than spaces and essentially accomplishes the same purpose.

00:51:03   You know what I mean?

00:51:04   Or even stage manager, like anything, like it's just visibility.

00:51:06   Like I don't need to put them way over another space.

00:51:08   I just need to option click away from one app to another, you know, and hide them behind

00:51:11   me.

00:51:12   It's hiding.

00:51:13   It's not bad.

00:51:14   I do hide most of the time.

00:51:16   It's just that in certain scenarios I have several clusters of things going on and it's

00:51:21   enough for it to be annoying.

00:51:22   No, I hear that.

00:51:23   No, I mean, I think you'll be less sympathetic if and when you start encountering this because

00:51:28   considering this has gotten worse over time, it either didn't exist and then did exist

00:51:33   or it has gotten worse because I didn't notice this at all.

00:51:36   And I would have, because it's not like I've changed.

00:51:37   I didn't notice this at all, you know, a year or two ago and now I notice it a lot.

00:51:42   So it may be coming for you guys eventually because if it continues to get worse, if you

00:51:46   ever log in a second user, even with your eight windows open, you might see it and not

00:51:50   as severely, but you might see it a little bit.

00:51:52   You're like, huh, is this app slow?

00:51:54   Why is it lagging behind the cursor a little bit?

00:51:56   Like in theory, eight windows is you should be able to see some amount of lag if you were

00:52:02   to like micro analyze it in slow-mo video, right?

00:52:05   Because it is not, again, it's not like not happening than happening.

00:52:08   It's just a matter of degree.

00:52:09   How much is it happening with eight windows?

00:52:11   It's happening more than it is with seven, which is more than it is with six, which is

00:52:13   more than it is with five.

00:52:15   You know, it's happening to you too.

00:52:17   You just don't know it.

00:52:18   I don't know.

00:52:19   I think like Casey and I use so many fewer windows.

00:52:21   Also we're using, you know, Apple Silicon Macs and I use an Apple mouse.

00:52:25   Yeah, the Apple, the Apple mouse is not, I don't think it's an Apple mouse.

00:52:29   I think it's the polling rate of the mouse.

00:52:30   That's why I think Bluetooth is harder than USB because I think USB allows lower latency

00:52:35   and more polling, especially if like the fancy mice like this Microsoft one, it's not that

00:52:39   fancy but like Logitech, Logitech MX master three I think is a semi, well maybe it's not

00:52:43   that high.

00:52:44   Well it's more that like the, you know, the combination of conditions that I'm using,

00:52:48   like I'm using their recent hardware, I'm using their mouse.

00:52:51   I think it's much more, it's much less likely that a bug that affects me in that way would

00:52:56   ever get through Apple because they would hit it.

00:52:58   Like this, I'm using the hardware in combinations and software in patterns that they expect.

00:53:03   I'm like, I'm on the happy path.

00:53:04   I'm using the mainstream stuff.

00:53:06   You have some kind of fringe edge case things going on.

00:53:09   You have this weird Microsoft mouse.

00:53:11   You're using the Mac Pro.

00:53:12   You have multiple users.

00:53:13   The Microsoft mouse is not, that's what I'm getting, the Microsoft mouse is not weird.

00:53:16   It's just a USB connected mouse.

00:53:17   Well to Apple it's weird.

00:53:19   You know, like, because again, you know, Logitech, plain old Logitech USB connected mouse, not

00:53:24   weird.

00:53:25   Easy to reproduce.

00:53:26   It's not just a Microsoft mouse.

00:53:27   Like I think it really has to do with the, well it might have to do with the polling

00:53:31   rate.

00:53:32   I don't have a way of telling what the polling rate is but yeah.

00:53:33   But some people said they reproduced it with the built in track pad on their MacBook Pro.

00:53:36   That's pretty happy path too.

00:53:37   You know what I mean?

00:53:38   Yeah, fair.

00:53:39   Anyway, I do, I do think you two should both reproduce this next week.

00:53:43   I'll have you log into a second account before we start recording just so you can see it

00:53:46   for yourself.

00:53:47   Just so you know, you will know that your computers are not immune.

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00:55:45   (upbeat music)

00:55:48   Breaking news as we record tonight on Wednesday night, Apple just today has released 17.0.1

00:55:55   or 17.0.3.

00:55:57   This update provides important bug fixes, security updates, and addresses an issue that

00:56:00   may cause iPhone, I still don't like that they don't use the, may cause iPhone to run

00:56:05   warmer than expected.

00:56:07   What is going on here?

00:56:08   Apparently all of our iPhone 15s are melting and I think Marco you broke this news, what

00:56:13   a week or two ago, when you said during your transfer your iPhone attempted to melt into

00:56:18   the desk.

00:56:19   - Yeah, it was thermally throttling itself and telling me that.

00:56:23   This whole thing, the heat gate, as Gruber and Molt said on the talk show, it's gate season.

00:56:31   All the scandals about the iPhone and I got my fine moving case with the hole that's too

00:56:36   small and the material that's scrapped is easily and here I got my iPhone 15 Pro with

00:56:40   its overheating chip in the heavy use of the first day.

00:56:46   If the iPhone 15 Pro really does run a little hotter, Apple will never say that.

00:56:55   If this is a real problem, it absolutely will never be said.

00:56:59   - You mean if it's a hardware problem?

00:57:01   - Yeah, if it's like a real shortcoming that's just inherent to the design and choices made

00:57:06   for the iPhone 15 Pro, Apple will never in a million years say that.

00:57:11   - Well I don't understand, I don't think that's fair at all because it's not like they've

00:57:14   ever told us that we were holding a phone wrong.

00:57:15   What are they gonna tell us now, that we're touching it wrong?

00:57:19   - And Tandagate, they did confirm that this thing you said could happen if you did a thing.

00:57:23   Yeah, if you do that thing, the thing you said does happen.

00:57:25   So they did confirm that and here's the other thing about the iPhone 15.

00:57:29   I haven't seen the tear downs from iFixit yet but I don't think there's anything about

00:57:34   the way it is constructed and cooled that is different than the 14 Pro in a way that

00:57:41   would be this profound.

00:57:42   We talked about it last time, well the titanium has less mass, that means there's less mass

00:57:45   to soak up the temperature although I don't actually know the heat.

00:57:49   - I don't think that's how that works.

00:57:52   It might be a factor but I don't think that's a major factor.

00:57:54   - There's also a fact that I don't know if titanium is better or worse at conducting

00:57:57   heat than aluminum and what alloy of titanium or, anyway, there are a lot of factors involved.

00:58:02   - Even like how much of the heat from the chip which is kind of in the middle back of

00:58:06   the phone, how much of that heat even makes it to the outer frame?

00:58:09   Probably not a lot.

00:58:11   - But anyway, what I'm saying is that this phone is not radically different construction

00:58:15   wise.

00:58:16   What would have to be true for it to be a hardware issue is that something in it, presumably

00:58:20   the SOC, would itself have to be radically different.

00:58:23   Oh, this SOC gets way hotter or is capable of getting way hotter or whatever.

00:58:28   So far I haven't seen any evidence of that, that the SOC, because it is three nanometers,

00:58:34   even if it is no better than five nanometer, it should get a little hotter because it has

00:58:38   more transistors but is the density up that much?

00:58:43   It seems like the overheating is so obvious and severe that if it was a hardware related

00:58:50   thing, it would have to be incredibly significant.

00:58:53   Totally different cooling system, totally different design for the phone or this SOC

00:58:58   is just way, way hotter than the other one and none of those things seem to be true.

00:59:02   So I'm willing to take Apple's explanation at face value which is this is a software

00:59:06   problem.

00:59:07   - Probably.

00:59:08   - Or at least software is a lot of things.

00:59:13   Software could be the thermal regulation of the chip.

00:59:17   When does the chip throttle?

00:59:18   Under what conditions?

00:59:20   How far is it willing to push itself before it starts throttling?

00:59:23   Because phone chips, if you run them hard, they do throttle.

00:59:26   That's not a new thing.

00:59:27   That's not a thing inherent to the iPhone 15.

00:59:30   These ships have no active cooling.

00:59:31   There's a certain limit to how far they can or how long they can run at full blast and

00:59:36   they will throttle themselves if need be and again, that's not new.

00:59:39   That's not a scandal.

00:59:40   That's not news.

00:59:41   It could just be that they ship the iPhone 15 Pro with bad trade-offs or a bad thermal

00:59:49   regulation set of parameters and they've tweaked that.

00:59:54   - So if you keep reading the Apple statement, they did spread a lot of the software blame

01:00:00   around.

01:00:01   This is quoting directly from Apple.

01:00:04   Apple says, "We have also found a bug in iOS 17 that is impacting some users and will be

01:00:10   addressed in a software update."

01:00:11   So that's them saying, "We've got a bug."

01:00:14   Some part of iOS 17, it could be the part that you just talked about, Marco, the part

01:00:18   that controls how the thing thermal throttles or whatever, but that's them, Apple saying,

01:00:23   "Something wrong in iOS 17, we'll fix that."

01:00:25   And then they say, "Another issue involves some recent updates to third-party apps that

01:00:29   are causing them to overload the system.

01:00:30   We were working with the app developers, blah, blah, blah, blah."

01:00:32   So they're blaming some third-party apps and they're blaming the operating system.

01:00:37   So there's enough software, and I think the third-party app ones is also kind of an operating

01:00:40   system thing because the operating system on iPhones at least is supposed to keep them

01:00:43   kind of in check and not let them burn up the whole CPU or whatever.

01:00:48   But there's enough vague software blame to go around to say, "Hey, there's nothing inherently

01:00:53   wrong with the design of this phone."

01:00:55   It's just that when you do a lot of stuff using...

01:00:58   If you use a lot of CPU, it gets hot and things are using more CPU than they "should be" on

01:01:05   a phone, and so that's why it's hot.

01:01:09   I think all of those things are true.

01:01:11   I think these apps are using too much CPU.

01:01:14   The way iOS throttles app CPUs, it doesn't throttle you to like, "All right, you're currently

01:01:19   using 100% of a core.

01:01:21   We're going to let you use 80% of a core forever."

01:01:23   No, that isn't how it works.

01:01:25   The way it works, at least last time I checked, maybe they've changed it, but the way it works

01:01:28   is that foreground apps can do whatever they want to the CPU as long as they want.

01:01:35   The CPU might eventually thermally throttle itself down to a lower clock speed or something,

01:01:39   but foreground apps do not have any CPU restrictions.

01:01:42   The iOS restrictions are mainly just about background apps not burning too much power.

01:01:46   And on that, they do have a lot of software controls.

01:01:49   Once you've reached a certain threshold, the system just kills your app.

01:01:52   So it'll be something like, "You've used over 100% CPU for over 90 seconds."

01:01:58   Then they just kill you.

01:01:59   So it's not keeping apps from heating up the CPU at all.

01:02:03   It's keeping background apps from burning up too much CPU in the background.

01:02:08   But foreground apps can heat up the CPU as much as they want as long as you're still

01:02:11   using them.

01:02:12   And so my guess is, yes, those apps were ridiculous.

01:02:17   They always are.

01:02:18   Like Instagram, if you are an Instagram user, you know that is one of the heaviest battery

01:02:23   draining apps on your phone if you ever look at the battery screen.

01:02:25   Like Instagram is like one of the number one things up there.

01:02:28   Did we talk about this?

01:02:29   Did I admit publicly that I thought I did talk about this?

01:02:33   I still maintain that there is no need to force quit anything, but I have now turned

01:02:38   into I will force quit Instagram and Facebook and only those two.

01:02:42   Wait, wait.

01:02:43   You still maintain there's no need to force quit anything?

01:02:45   Do you want to amend that statement?

01:02:46   Okay.

01:02:47   In general usage, of course there are times that you will need to force quit things.

01:02:51   I'm saying you don't need to do the swipe, swipe, swipe, swipe, swipe.

01:02:53   I think what you were meant to say was there is no need to ritualistically force quit every

01:02:57   single application every time you're done using the phone for a moment.

01:03:00   Sorry.

01:03:01   Yes, that is what I meant.

01:03:02   And the only way that I break that rule, which I do agree that that is the case.

01:03:06   I have gotten to the point, I think because I've been so scared by what I see in that

01:03:10   battery screen that Marco just brought up, I will now force quit Instagram and Facebook

01:03:14   if I ever look at them because it just creeps me out how much battery they used.

01:03:18   I bet you a hundred percent of it is probably when I'm foregrounded, but or when they're

01:03:22   foregrounded, but still it just creeps me out how much they destroy my battery.

01:03:25   It used to be the case that if you got force quit, you couldn't run in the background anymore

01:03:29   until you were launched, but they changed that many years ago, didn't they?

01:03:32   Yeah.

01:03:33   Well, there's a few exceptions to that.

01:03:34   So it's like a silent notification.

01:03:36   Yes.

01:03:37   So notification update, a background refresh that used to be killed in the back.

01:03:40   If you did that now it's not because the problem is like people would force quit everything

01:03:43   at, you know, out of habit and then they would complain, why isn't this app getting notifications

01:03:47   or whatever?

01:03:48   Why is my stuff not updating?

01:03:50   Yeah.

01:03:51   So they've, they've, they've had to add little exceptions here and there.

01:03:53   So what that means is that your, your habit, you know, your, your decision to force quit

01:03:57   what you perceive to be a misbehaving application, that app still has the ability to misbehave

01:04:02   because you're not preventing it from doing background refresh, for example.

01:04:05   And if it's doing background refresh aggressively or getting silent, uh, you know, notification

01:04:09   updates from Facebook or whatever, which I'm sure it totally is.

01:04:13   It's still back there being badly behaved.

01:04:15   Yeah.

01:04:16   And if the app is in the foreground, it can do almost whatever it wants.

01:04:21   Like although when it, when it's doing that, like the operating system, you know, won't

01:04:25   kill it, but, uh, it will, the CPU will throttle due to heat.

01:04:29   Yes.

01:04:30   So when you're playing a game, your frame rates will drop.

01:04:32   Not because the operating system is saying you can't have this many frames, but because

01:04:35   literally the, these clock speed of the CPU is being turned down and so everything is

01:04:39   going to get slower and you know, it's thermal throttling.

01:04:41   Right?

01:04:42   Yeah.

01:04:43   So I'm, I'm guessing the most likely explanation for the iPhone hot story here, most likely

01:04:49   explanation is those parameters for when it would throttle on an under what conditions

01:04:55   were not set right or were not ideal for real world use.

01:04:59   That's not my, that's not my guess.

01:05:00   My guess is this, and as my guess is based on my wife's story of her 15 pro, her 15 pro

01:05:05   was, she said, I wish I could read her quote, but I don't have it handy here.

01:05:09   Um, I think what you're saying, it was getting, it was like, felt like it was too hot to touch.

01:05:14   Uh, like she, like it was uncomfortable to have in her hand and she's got the fine woven

01:05:18   case on it.

01:05:19   So it's not like she's holding the bare phone.

01:05:20   She has a sweater on it.

01:05:22   Yeah.

01:05:23   Well, you know, exactly.

01:05:24   Here's what it says.

01:05:26   I can't talk on the phone without it almost burning my hand from the heat.

01:05:29   What was she doing with her phone?

01:05:31   Talking on the phone, like voice call, like cell network voice call, not FaceTime, not

01:05:35   FaceTime audio, but like telephone calls.

01:05:38   So the screen's not even on.

01:05:39   She's just talking on the telephone with her iPhone, which is madness.

01:05:43   I know, but some people do it and it was getting so hot.

01:05:46   Some people also use wired mice.

01:05:48   It was almost burning her hand.

01:05:50   What that makes me think is that it is not a temperature curve thing or whatever.

01:05:54   Here's what I think it is.

01:05:56   These operating systems, you know, based on Darwin, which is underlying all the Apple

01:06:00   stuff.

01:06:01   It's Unix.

01:06:02   It's got a whole bunch of different processes running.

01:06:03   Some subsystem of the operating system that has split off into a demon process or whatever,

01:06:08   which is most of the parts of the operating system, had some kind of bug in it where it

01:06:13   would get caught in an infinite loop.

01:06:15   It's some essential part of the system that it doesn't get killed.

01:06:17   And if it does get killed, it immediately relaunches and it would just would crash and

01:06:21   relaunch and get caught in an infinite loop and maybe be killed by a watchdog process

01:06:24   and relaunched and get caught in an infinite loop because some inner part of the operating

01:06:29   system flipping out and getting caught in an infinite loop, that's not going to get

01:06:33   killed by the operating system because it's part of the operating system.

01:06:36   And talking on the phone, what could possibly be burning up your thing in your hand when

01:06:40   you're talking on the phone?

01:06:41   It's got to be some subsystem that comes into being when you're talking on the phone.

01:06:50   This reads to me like something crashing and looping because I can't think of anything

01:06:53   else that would explain.

01:06:55   And that would be Apple saying, "Oh, some thing is crashing all the time, so they'll

01:06:58   fix it or whatever."

01:06:59   The third party apps thing, I have a harder time wondering what that could be because

01:07:03   you know, like Casey said, Instagram has always been like this.

01:07:05   This is not new, right?

01:07:06   Apple has been iOS versus Facebook apps or iOS versus badly behaved apps.

01:07:10   That war has been going on for ages.

01:07:12   It's not like, "Oh, we never thought we'd have to handle this."

01:07:15   I don't think anything changed recently that would, you know...

01:07:19   Anyway, we should skip to the end here, which is Apple does have a supposed fix for this

01:07:23   that came out hours before we started recording, which is iOS 17.0.3.

01:07:29   The text from Apple on this is, "This update provides important bug fixes, security updates,

01:07:33   and addresses an issue that may cause iPhone to run warmer than expected."

01:07:38   Does it work?

01:07:39   I don't have it installed yet.

01:07:40   Did you install it?

01:07:41   I have the developer beta that has allegedly the same fix in it.

01:07:44   Yeah, I don't have an iPhone 15 Pro, but my wife is definitely updating her phone, and

01:07:48   so I'll let you know how it goes for her.

01:07:51   But yeah, talking on the phone, making it so hot that it was burning her hand, that's

01:07:55   not good.

01:07:56   I mean, and if this continues, if 17.0.3 doesn't fix it, I feel like that's when I start thinking

01:08:01   of like, "Manufacturing defect?

01:08:04   Like, you know, thermal...

01:08:06   Is there even any thermal paste?"

01:08:07   I don't even want to know.

01:08:10   Anyway, not a great start, but we'll see.

01:08:14   Yeah, I feel like this is the beginnings of the Studio Display camera problems, when Apple

01:08:19   is like, "No, no, no, no, no, no, no.

01:08:21   It's software.

01:08:22   We're fine.

01:08:23   It's software."

01:08:24   And to be clear, like, I have no reason to believe that it isn't software.

01:08:26   I'm not trying to imply that Apple's full of it, but as we quickly learned with Studio

01:08:30   Display, they were full of it at that point.

01:08:33   Like, it seems like the camera in the Studio Display is legitimately not great.

01:08:38   But I suspect that this is for real a software issue.

01:08:42   Although I will say that some friends of ours asked in a group chat with Aaron and me, asked,

01:08:48   "Hey, how do you like your new phones?

01:08:50   Ours arrived in a couple of weeks."

01:08:51   And I said, "You know, by and large, it's fine.

01:08:52   The case story is real bad this year, but the phones are good."

01:08:56   And Aaron said, "Well, you know, the phone is fine, but the battery life is no better

01:09:01   than my 14."

01:09:03   And I plugged it in to top it off just now, and it's basically on fire.

01:09:06   Now, I'm pretty sure she was plugged into a MacBook Pro charger, and so presumably it

01:09:12   was fast charging.

01:09:13   But nonetheless, it certainly seemed that even charging her phone was making it quite

01:09:17   toasty.

01:09:18   So I'm curious, because she hasn't applied the update yet.

01:09:21   I'm curious if that gets any better once she's updated.

01:09:24   Yeah, we need some YouTuber with access to, like, you know, like one of those heat measuring

01:09:29   things.

01:09:30   Like, we need quantitative measurements, because as I said last week, when the thing that has

01:09:36   something hot inside it is hot to the touch, that means the heat is going from the inside

01:09:40   to the outside and radiating out.

01:09:41   So like, if you hold it and don't feel any heat, but it's still producing the same amount,

01:09:46   that heat is trapped inside.

01:09:47   So things that "feel hotter" may actually be running cooler, because the thing that

01:09:52   you want to be cool is in the middle of the phone, and you want the heat to go out, and

01:09:56   then it hits your hand.

01:09:57   And that's not great, you don't want it, like, that's one of the reasons that people have

01:10:00   reported that they think Apple doesn't put better, quote-unquote "better cooling systems"

01:10:03   in their laptops, it's because it can't get too hot on your lap, so they can't immediately

01:10:07   dump all the heat out the back of the laptop, because it will burn your legs, so they have

01:10:11   to let it dissipate out slowly, so it never gets too hot.

01:10:14   So I don't know the answer to the question of, is it producing more heat inside the phone,

01:10:21   or is it merely better at shedding the heat that it does produce, and it's shedding it

01:10:25   like too quickly, essentially, like that its cooling system is quote-unquote "too good",

01:10:29   because as soon as the SoC heats up, it's so thermally conducted that it blasts that

01:10:32   heat from the SoC out of the phone, and it hits you, and it is uncomfortable.

01:10:36   And to be clear, that's not, you don't want that, that's not good, but I don't actually

01:10:39   know if the quantity of heat is larger, or if it's just that the transfer is faster,

01:10:44   and I think you'd need fancy scientific equipment to figure that out.

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01:12:42   Recently, I think this was a couple of weeks back, there was an interesting rumor about

01:12:51   Apple making a quote unquote low cost MacBook.

01:12:54   And I feel like we've heard about this on and off throughout the years.

01:12:57   I was just becoming an Apple fan when the Ultrabook, I'm pretty sure that's what we

01:13:01   called them, was a thing that was a physically small, extraordinarily underpowered computer.

01:13:08   No, those were netbooks.

01:13:09   You're talking about netbooks?

01:13:10   I'm sorry, you're right.

01:13:11   Yeah.

01:13:12   Ultrabook was the MacBook Air clones for IPC vendors.

01:13:14   No, I'm sorry.

01:13:15   You are 100% correct.

01:13:16   My apologies.

01:13:17   Thank you for correcting me.

01:13:18   So netbooks were a thing.

01:13:19   They were these little, they were very clever and interesting, but also pieces of crap.

01:13:24   We heard a bunch of rumors that Apple is going to make a netbook, and I think the closest

01:13:28   we got to that was an iPad.

01:13:30   And here we are, we're circling this thing once again.

01:13:33   So reading from Jason at Six Colors, Apple's reportedly developing a low cost MacBook series

01:13:39   to compete with Chromebook models in the education sector that could be released as early as

01:13:43   the second half of 2024.

01:13:45   Sources said that Apple will likely launch a new product line for its low cost MacBooks

01:13:48   to differentiate it from existing MacBook Air and Pro lines.

01:13:51   The outer appearance will still use metal casing, but made of different materials.

01:13:54   The unit price of the mechanical components will be lower, allowing for more affordable

01:13:58   price aimed at the education market, similar to the positioning of Chromebooks.

01:14:02   By the way, just to clarify, Jason was not reporting this.

01:14:04   Oh, sorry.

01:14:05   This was reported in Digitimes, but it was behind a paywall and Jason quoted it, so I

01:14:10   quoted Jason quoting it.

01:14:11   I appreciate that.

01:14:13   Thank you.

01:14:14   I'm a mess tonight.

01:14:15   Jason actually kind of disagreed with it very well, so you should read his article that

01:14:18   he wrote.

01:14:19   But see, the reason I want to talk about this, because this actually, it kind of piqued my

01:14:23   interest because the idea of Apple trying to get a radically cheaper laptop than what

01:14:31   they have now, I think is very interesting.

01:14:33   And there is definitely a market to that.

01:14:35   And I find this doubly interesting because my kid just started a school where they issue

01:14:40   every student Chromebooks.

01:14:43   And so I now have some firsthand experience with the Chromebooks that students are getting

01:14:47   in very large numbers across at least the US.

01:14:50   Welcome.

01:14:51   Both my children have had Chromebooks for many, many years now.

01:14:55   And they've also broken Chromebooks.

01:14:57   So I have lots of experience.

01:14:58   Get ready for Chromebooks.

01:14:59   I mean, this is one of the things that I guess if you don't have kids in school, you might

01:15:02   not have noticed the Chromebook revolution, but it happened.

01:15:05   They swept through the education sector.

01:15:08   And yeah, if your kid gets issued a computer in their school, it's probably a Chromebook.

01:15:12   And it goes well beyond just being issued a computer.

01:15:15   So this was news to me.

01:15:16   Like I knew Chromebooks were making massive, you know, inroads, not just inroads, but you

01:15:21   know, just massively taken over schools and over a long time now.

01:15:26   But I didn't realize, so my kids started the school, you know, he's in middle school now,

01:15:31   and they don't even, not only do they not bring backpacks between classes, they aren't

01:15:36   even allowed to.

01:15:37   They just carry a Chromebook and like a small binder.

01:15:41   There's not even like textbooks and backpacks anymore.

01:15:43   Like that's, well, that's, that's definitely not in my schools.

01:15:45   That may just be a, a local thing.

01:15:47   Yeah.

01:15:48   Or maybe the textbooks are in the classroom, regardless, like they don't carry books around

01:15:51   anymore.

01:15:52   Oh yeah.

01:15:53   They don't carry textbooks.

01:15:54   The textbooks are mostly electronic.

01:15:55   That is right.

01:15:56   So everything is in Google Classroom and whatever else, like, you know, the, whatever they're,

01:16:00   all those different platform tools are called.

01:16:02   Does Adam School actually use Google Classroom?

01:16:04   I think so, yeah.

01:16:06   They use it, at least for some stuff they use it.

01:16:08   I don't know if they use it for everything, but they do use it.

01:16:10   There are a couple of big vendors in this space and you know, that have lots of market

01:16:14   share.

01:16:15   I just wondered what Google Classroom's market share is.

01:16:17   None of my kids' schools use Google Classroom, but there's a couple other software packages

01:16:21   that are common.

01:16:22   Yeah.

01:16:23   So what, what I find interesting about the idea of Apple trying to get into this market

01:16:27   is that this market is just so utterly dominated by Chromebooks and they are so entrenched

01:16:34   now.

01:16:35   So you have the massive amount of cheap hardware, first of all.

01:16:40   And you know, to give some idea, I looked up the exact Chromebook that my kid was issued

01:16:44   by the school and right now just, you can buy it on Amazon for $230.

01:16:52   The school's buying hundreds of them at once, so I'm sure they have a good bulk rate on

01:16:56   that.

01:16:57   But the retail price for one of them, for a regular person off Amazon, is $230 for an

01:17:04   entire laptop.

01:17:05   Now, it is a crappy laptop.

01:17:07   The screen is dim and low resolution.

01:17:09   The whole thing is creaky plastic and you know, this is not a good laptop, but it is

01:17:15   a fully functioning asterisk laptop for $230.

01:17:20   When you compare that to the M1 MacBook Air, the cheapest laptop Apple sells, the retail

01:17:27   price for education is $900.

01:17:30   You know, again, schools don't often pay that full price.

01:17:34   They have discounts.

01:17:35   Also, Apple has been discounting that exact MacBook Air through retailers down to like

01:17:41   the $750 range, maybe like from Amazon or Best Buy or whatever.

01:17:45   Sometimes they'll do that.

01:17:46   They'll dump a whole bunch out.

01:17:47   So let's say they could actually sell the M1 MacBook Air for like around $750, $700 if

01:17:53   they really wanted to.

01:17:54   And that's, again, that's not the current model.

01:17:56   It's the old model.

01:17:58   How do you think Apple would get anywhere near $230 when they're currently at $700 or

01:18:06   $800 minimum?

01:18:07   And I think that's an interesting question to ask.

01:18:10   How could they get there?

01:18:12   So this rumor says it'll still use metal casing but made of different materials.

01:18:16   Well, there's lots of things that could mean, you know.

01:18:20   - It's made of aluminum foil.

01:18:21   I mean, what is the less expensive material you can make a laptop out of that's still

01:18:25   metal?

01:18:26   - Well, it could have a simpler construction process.

01:18:28   Like maybe it's not unibody.

01:18:31   Maybe there's some other assembly method that's cheaper, you know?

01:18:34   - I agree with Jason that this Digitimes report isn't great but it does say made of different

01:18:38   materials.

01:18:39   - Yeah, it also says, quote, "The unit price of the mechanical components will be lower."

01:18:44   I mean, I guess that's like the hinge and stuff.

01:18:46   What does that even, I don't even know what that even means, but...

01:18:49   - Yeah, the Grichton Taptic Engine or whatever.

01:18:51   Here's the thing about this rumor though, with the, you know, can Apple make a less

01:18:56   expensive thing that can compete with the Chromebooks?

01:18:59   As I think you'll see as you accompany Adam on his Chromebook journey, Google's real dominance

01:19:05   is not the crappy laptops that your kids use, although it helps that those exist and are

01:19:10   cheap.

01:19:11   It's the web-based, cloud-based software that is behind them.

01:19:15   That is the lock-in thing.

01:19:16   Apple has nothing that can compete with that.

01:19:18   Apple's web-based, you know, equivalent of like, you know, even it's just as simple as

01:19:22   like Google Docs and the fact that kids have a Google Drive.

01:19:24   Setting aside actual Google Classroom or things like Schoology or all the different, you know,

01:19:30   not so great enterprise-y education software things, all that stuff is web/cloud-based.

01:19:35   So the purpose of the thing that your kid has is to access web/cloud-based stuff, which

01:19:40   is why a Chromebook, which runs a web OS and all the apps are web apps, makes perfect sense.

01:19:45   So, Apple has nothing on the cloud side of that that can compete.

01:19:48   Their offerings are not compelling.

01:19:51   They're just plain not as good, which is a, you know, usually it's like, well, Apple costs

01:19:54   more, but they're better.

01:19:56   Apple's education stuff is not better.

01:19:57   They don't even have anything that can compete with just plain old Google Docs, just text,

01:20:02   collaborative text and a web page that kids can do stuff together.

01:20:04   Setting aside all the other features that are way more complicated than that, Apple's

01:20:08   like collaborative iWork stuff is miles behind plain old Google Docs.

01:20:13   And so it's almost like the laptop part of it doesn't even matter.

01:20:18   And why would you pay three times the price or two times the price or heck, $10 more than

01:20:23   the Chromebook to get a nicer way to view the same exact web apps that you can see in

01:20:28   a Chromebook.

01:20:29   And as slow and janky as the Chromebooks are, they're good enough to load up your kid's

01:20:34   Google Drive and look at their Google Docs and submit things to Schoology and do all

01:20:38   the things that the kids need to do.

01:20:41   And there's no other stuff beyond that.

01:20:44   They don't need to run high frame rate games.

01:20:45   The kids shouldn't be playing any games anyway.

01:20:47   They don't run fancy software.

01:20:49   Everything happens on the web.

01:20:50   And yes, it is nicer.

01:20:51   By the way, the kids totally do play games on their Chromebooks.

01:20:54   They all figure out how.

01:20:55   I know, but as far as the education marketing is concerned, they're like, our kids aren't

01:21:00   getting high enough frame rates in their games.

01:21:02   You could say, well, don't you want them to have the cool chemistry experiment where they're

01:21:06   going through 3D?

01:21:08   That stuff demos well, but practically speaking, no.

01:21:11   Schools don't want to pay even $10 more for that.

01:21:14   So I feel like Apple's, even if Apple comes out with something for $230, they're still

01:21:18   going to be totally pushed out of the education market by Google because what schools want

01:21:23   is give me a way for teachers to run classes and grade assignments and accept submissions

01:21:28   and all the stuff, all the cloud stuff that Google and other companies do that Apple either

01:21:33   doesn't do at all or has worse solutions for.

01:21:35   And that is what's keeping Apple out of education, not $700 MacBook Pros or MacBook Airs or whatever.

01:21:40   Yeah, I think there's so many factors here.

01:21:45   I think this rumor is, first of all, I think it's unlikely to be true.

01:21:49   But if it is true, I think the most interesting part is the hardware.

01:21:54   Like to us as Apple nerds, how do they get it meaningfully different from the current

01:21:59   Macs?

01:22:00   And that whole other side of the management of the fleet of them by school IT departments,

01:22:08   how you source them, how you service them, how you repair them, what happens when a kid

01:22:12   breaks them, how you manage the software, what are they accessing, what web services

01:22:17   and software packages are they accessing?

01:22:19   Because what schools would want is, oh, it's a MacBook Air, but literally the only thing

01:22:24   you can ever see on the screen is Google Chrome.

01:22:26   And that's a Chromebook.

01:22:27   Yeah, because that's what schools want.

01:22:30   They don't want kids to be able to get to the finder and install good games and play

01:22:33   them, you know what I mean?

01:22:35   They want it to be a Chromebook.

01:22:36   And even with Chromebooks, as you know, did they find a way to get like Solitaire on there

01:22:39   or find web-based games and do all sorts of like, but like the Mac, the Mac operating

01:22:44   system and MacBook Airs, but like they provide like to lock them down to the degree that

01:22:50   they would need to be locked down for school students is just so difficult.

01:22:53   It can be done.

01:22:54   Like you can do manage stuff.

01:22:56   Everything can be controlled centrally and you could stop them from running everything

01:22:58   else or whatever.

01:22:59   But that's so much more complicated than a Chromebook, which like comes pre-lockdown in

01:23:03   so many ways out of the box before you even begin actually locking it down, which of course

01:23:08   you can do with Chromebooks as well.

01:23:10   Like the Mac is just too powerful.

01:23:12   Like not in terms of like, you know, CPU, although it obviously is a bazillion times

01:23:16   faster than a Chromebook, but in terms of like we always talk with the iPad, you can

01:23:20   do so many things on the Mac.

01:23:22   It is a general purpose computer that runs arbitrary software.

01:23:25   You have to shut off so many things before it becomes quote unquote safe for kids to

01:23:30   use.

01:23:31   And I think it's interesting to think like if they were to try to make a lower cost,

01:23:35   but like a much lower cost, you know, suppose, you know, the current ones, you know, 800,

01:23:40   $900 suppose they wanted to hit 400 or 500.

01:23:43   You know, that's still twice as much as Chromebooks, but suppose they actually wanted to hit four

01:23:48   or 500 bucks.

01:23:49   Cause I, I can't imagine them going lower than that.

01:23:52   Even that would be very aggressive for them, but it's worth thinking about like, what would

01:23:56   that be and what, and what would it be so that they wouldn't lose too many MacBook Air sales

01:24:02   to it?

01:24:03   That's the other thing.

01:24:04   - You remember the EMAC?

01:24:05   Like this is Apple's kind of out where it's like, oh, you can't buy this.

01:24:08   It's education only.

01:24:10   They would do that for various reasons.

01:24:12   One usually in the past was back when they were actually big in schools is they would

01:24:15   design computers specifically for the needs of schools and they didn't suit the needs

01:24:19   of consumers because they would be designed for shared environments or designed for durability

01:24:24   and certain features would be omitted.

01:24:25   So it was like, this is tailor made for you education and cost and consumers wouldn't be

01:24:29   like looking at it longingly, even if it was cheaper as they'd be like, oh, but I don't

01:24:32   want that one.

01:24:33   That one doesn't have what I want.

01:24:35   But in terms of what they could do to save money on this, I don't know if they could

01:24:40   do what they used to do with the EMAC.

01:24:42   If they made one that's cheaper, consumers would want it.

01:24:45   They would say, but what about that one?

01:24:47   They'd be like, oh no, no, you can't have that one.

01:24:48   It's for education, but it looks great.

01:24:49   I like it.

01:24:50   It's $400.

01:24:51   Can I just have that one?

01:24:52   Oh no, you know what?

01:24:53   That's, that's just for schools.

01:24:54   There's so much about it that is school-y and when we look at the laptops today, like

01:24:59   they have so little on them anymore.

01:25:00   Like back in the day, we were talking about all in one computer is that these, the number

01:25:04   of features and the size and the looks and the shape and how many ports, like it was

01:25:07   such, there was so much variability, but in a MacBook air type thing, what do you think

01:25:12   will be different about the form factor for school other than potentially being uglier

01:25:15   and more durable, right?

01:25:17   There's so few ports.

01:25:18   There's just some USB-C shaped holes that screen a track pad and a keyboard.

01:25:21   Like that's what the education one would be.

01:25:23   Maybe the case would be a little bit different, but here's the thing.

01:25:26   I think when I saw this story, I'm like, you know what?

01:25:28   Apple can pretty easily make a much cheaper, but still very good laptop that everybody

01:25:37   would want because it would be much cheaper.

01:25:40   And the reason they can do that is mostly because of the Apple Silicon transition.

01:25:46   And the way they do it is like, if wait, wait two years from now, I think two years from

01:25:51   now, you could sell a plain old M1 powered laptop with a not so great screen and a not

01:25:58   so great track pad for $400 and still make 30% margins.

01:26:03   And an M1 three years from now, still really good.

01:26:08   Like compared to what's in the Chromebook, still perfectly fine for web browsing.

01:26:13   Like just that's the Tim Cook principle.

01:26:16   How long can we keep selling M1 based laptops?

01:26:19   I think for a pretty long time, especially, especially if your bar is Chromebook.

01:26:25   And so when does an M1 based laptop with a not so great screen and track pad become $400?

01:26:30   Only a few years from now, I think with 40% margins only a few years from now.

01:26:34   So there is an obvious way to do that.

01:26:37   I still don't think Apple will do it, but they could do it.

01:26:42   Obviously the iPad is the big elephant in this room.

01:26:46   You know, the base model iPad is about 300 bucks.

01:26:51   That's in Chromebook territory, but that's also just the iPad and you know, no case,

01:26:55   no keyboard.

01:26:56   You know, you'd have to, and, and we've seen Apple attempt to, and maybe succeed, I'm not

01:27:01   sure.

01:27:02   I don't know to what degree, but you know, we've seen Apple address the educational market

01:27:05   with the iPad, with these kind of, you know, cases they've, they've kind of co-designed

01:27:09   with Logitech to be like the educational case and it's this big rubbery thing and you know,

01:27:14   and it has a built in keyboard and can be used in a standardized test and stuff like

01:27:17   that.

01:27:18   Like we've seen them kind of attack this market from the iPad end.

01:27:23   And I think it's interesting that, you know, that, that is much closer in price to Chromebooks.

01:27:27   You'd still be looking at about double once you throw in a keyboard and stuff, but that's

01:27:31   at least closer.

01:27:32   And so I wonder if the way to attack this problem, if they wanted to, if they want,

01:27:37   suppose they want to hit 400 bucks, maybe they actually start from the iPad and work

01:27:42   their way up rather than starting from the Mac and working their way down.

01:27:45   Now, I think you're right that the M1,

01:27:47   It's a closer fit though.

01:27:49   Like the Chromebook, by the way, is, and the iPad, they're closer to each other in terms

01:27:53   of exposed capabilities.

01:27:54   Like it is harder to screw up an iPad, you know what I mean?

01:27:57   And it's easier to lock an iPad down.

01:27:59   Yeah.

01:28:00   And it's, it's easier to centrally manage a whole bunch of iPads and everything like

01:28:02   there, there is, there are certain clear advantages there that Apple has been selling to education.

01:28:07   Like it's not that the iPad doesn't sell to education.

01:28:09   Like they, they've been doing that for a long time.

01:28:11   So we, we see that strategy, we see how it works.

01:28:13   We see what's, what it's good for and what it's not so good for.

01:28:16   We see how it loses to Chromebooks in certain ways and how it beats Chromebooks in certain

01:28:20   ways.

01:28:21   But I think if you, if you built an, if you built a Mac, similarly to how you would build

01:28:28   a low end iPad with just, you know, with a permanent keyboard and you know, a hinge and

01:28:32   everything like make it a laptop shell with mostly iPad guts.

01:28:38   I think you could hit those price ranges.

01:28:40   Running iPad OS.

01:28:41   See, I don't know.

01:28:43   Maybe running iPad OS, maybe not.

01:28:45   Maybe iPad OS is probably what they would do, you know, in, in part to avoid the cannibalization

01:28:51   angle and in part because it is probably better managed for this kind of purpose.

01:28:54   Yeah.

01:28:55   It's more, it's more, it's a more appropriate functional surface for education because all

01:28:59   this different stuff that the Mac can do is not relevant to education unless you're talking

01:29:03   about like a computer science class in high school.

01:29:05   Yeah.

01:29:06   I think ultimately the best way for Apple to even attempt to attack this problem is

01:29:11   probably an iPad that is its own permanent laptop.

01:29:16   Like that you don't have to attach a case and keyboard to an iPad.

01:29:19   Like no, you're talking about the E-Mate, the E-Mate strategy.

01:29:22   You remember the E-Mate?

01:29:23   You don't remember the E-Mate.

01:29:24   Yeah, before my time.

01:29:25   Do you know about the E-Mate retroactively?

01:29:26   It was a Newton with a permanently attached keyboard essentially made for it, made for

01:29:29   education.

01:29:30   Thus the E. Yeah.

01:29:31   That, that, that, it, with today's iPad hardware and running iPad OS as like the main, you

01:29:38   know, the OS for it, I think if Apple wants to actually attack Chromebooks, first of all,

01:29:44   I, you know, they're never going to replace Chromebooks because everything we mentioned

01:29:48   a few minutes ago of like there's this whole ecosystem around them that Apple would not

01:29:51   be able to compete with in terms of software and services.

01:29:55   Yeah.

01:29:56   They basically be selling it like you can use our amazing apps and also, you know, through

01:29:59   the web browser access, the thing that runs your entire school, which is Google slash

01:30:03   Schoology slash whatever.

01:30:04   Yeah, exactly.

01:30:05   So like, you know, they're never, they're not going to like really compete well with

01:30:09   Chromebooks, but they could at least do the Apple thing and find a high end and capture

01:30:15   that.

01:30:16   Like that's, that's usually what Apple does with most of their products.

01:30:18   You know, most of their products do not dominate their categories.

01:30:20   Usually their products are like the high end version that takes a lot of the profit and

01:30:25   the, and like, you know, the high end profitable shares, but it doesn't really compete with

01:30:28   all the commodity stuff at the bottom of the market.

01:30:30   And to that end, like since my kids have, you know, had Chromebooks for all these years,

01:30:35   it did take them a while, but both of them, I guess probably around sophomore year of

01:30:40   high school did the thing, which is like, can I not use the Chromebook, but instead

01:30:46   use one of the fancy laptops that my parents have because they have lots of money.

01:30:51   They asked, they asked, is there a laptop I can use instead of the Chromebook for years,

01:30:56   they didn't care like Chromebook, whatever school, whatever, blah, blah, blah.

01:30:59   But eventually, and they don't, let me tell you that neither one of these kids, my kids

01:31:03   cares about computers at all in terms of like the hardware or whatever, but even eventually

01:31:08   they could tell Chromebooks are the screen doesn't look great.

01:31:12   They're slow.

01:31:14   Maybe they just wanted to play better games.

01:31:15   I don't know, but either way they asked.

01:31:17   And so practically speaking, my daughter who's a junior now takes an M1 MacBook Air with

01:31:22   her to school and does not use her Chromebook.

01:31:24   Except on certain testing days when you have to quote unquote have to use the Chromebook

01:31:28   because the test is like, you know, it's kind of like you're only allowed to bring a certain

01:31:31   calculator to like whatever.

01:31:35   That's what the Chromebooks are.

01:31:36   That's kind of the obligatory.

01:31:37   So she still has a Chromebook, I think.

01:31:39   Although my school is also trying to save money and saying, if your kid doesn't need

01:31:43   a Chromebook, like we won't issue them one and we'll just give them one for standardized

01:31:47   testing or whatever.

01:31:48   But anyway, the Apple thing is like, if your parents have money, you can be one of the

01:31:54   rich kids and not have to slum it with the Chromebook because you'll bring your own,

01:31:58   you know, ridiculously over specked, expensive, fancy Apple laptop, which you use to run Chrome

01:32:05   and access the same web pages everyone else is accessing.

01:32:07   But you know, the solitaire game you can play in the background during class is way nicer.

01:32:12   So watch that for Adam.

01:32:13   How long does it take him to say, dad, our house is filled with laptops.

01:32:17   Do I have to use this Chromebook or can I bring points to one of the 17 laptops in the

01:32:21   house?

01:32:22   That one to school with me.

01:32:23   And you can have a fun conversation.

01:32:24   No, I think the more important question is at what point does Adam become the reason

01:32:30   that Marco has to get a new laptop?

01:32:33   He has to get a new laptop because, oh, Adam needs one.

01:32:37   I think it's already happened because doesn't do the thing where like rotating iPads down

01:32:40   to Adam soon.

01:32:41   Adam's going to have phones like just this is it's no hero.

01:32:44   He wrote his iPads down to me.

01:32:45   He's the iPad power user in the house.

01:32:48   Tiff and Adam both almost always have iPads that are better than mine.

01:32:52   Oftentimes I don't even have an iPad because if something goes wrong with Adam's, I swap

01:32:56   mine for his as I have his, you know, sent for repair or whatever.

01:33:00   So like oftentimes I just don't even have one.

01:33:02   Adam's got the big fancy gaming laptop, right?

01:33:04   Or is that, is that supposedly Tiff's that I remember?

01:33:07   We each have a fancy gaming.

01:33:08   I wouldn't describe it as big and they aren't that fancy, but yeah, they're like, you know,

01:33:12   the 15 inch razor, you know, low end GPU versions.

01:33:15   I think it could be interesting since he already has quote unquote his laptop.

01:33:18   It'll be interesting to see if he asks you, can I bring my gaming laptop to school?

01:33:22   Oh, it's way too heavy and big for he wouldn't.

01:33:25   It's being protected by the fact that it's monstrous and the battery lasts 10 minutes.

01:33:29   Yeah.

01:33:30   The Chromebook, I think it's like an 11 or 11 or 12 inch screen.

01:33:32   You know, it's, it's fine.

01:33:35   Let me know when he first breaks it.

01:33:36   It's a rite of passage.

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01:35:30   our show.

01:35:31   All right, let's do some Ask ATP.

01:35:36   Joe Lyon asks, "In a recent discussion about USBC, one of you mentioned that in the next

01:35:40   10 years the USBC port will be the limiter in film thickness.

01:35:44   Maybe this wasn't just but it sounded serious.

01:35:46   Is there any reason to actually think that Apple has shown no desire or at least no ability

01:35:50   to shrink thickness in the past 10 years and seem to be content at between seven and eight

01:35:54   millimeters for the body of the phone?"

01:35:56   There's an image that we will put in the show notes that apparently somebody else had put

01:36:00   together.

01:36:01   Nevertheless, the popular assumption has always seemed to be, "Eventually our phones will

01:36:05   be as thin as credit cards."

01:36:07   But is that based on anything other than sci-fi depictions in the future?

01:36:11   Has anyone actually demonstrated R&D for future tech where battery chips, hardware, Taptic

01:36:15   Engine, other ports and switches, et cetera, the screen, and not to mention the camera

01:36:20   fit in a package of four millimeters or less, much less the two to three millimeters?

01:36:24   I feel like in discussions of future phones, we often veer too far into what we think must

01:36:27   be possible in the future just because of advances we've made in the past without considering

01:36:31   what really are bound to be physical and practical limitations at some point.

01:36:36   Yeah, I don't think we're going to go massively thinner than what we have now for the foreseeable

01:36:43   future for a number of reasons.

01:36:46   I mean, the biggest of which is camera optics.

01:36:50   We see as the camera plateau keeps getting larger and they keep protruding further, now

01:36:55   we're having to turn the optics sideways just to fit some of them in or whatever.

01:36:58   We see that that is such a driving force behind phone advances and not only what people get

01:37:06   excited about and why they buy phones, but what they want out of their phones.

01:37:10   People want their phones to be amazing cameras and they want them to have pretty good battery

01:37:14   life.

01:37:15   And that's just going to result in a lot of stuff being crammed in.

01:37:17   We already see that people want basically the biggest phone they can hold in their hands

01:37:23   and fit in their pockets width and height wise and then they want a certain amount of

01:37:29   thickness behind it to house a really big camera and whatever the most battery is that

01:37:34   we can throw in there.

01:37:36   And so there really is not a lot of market pressure to make phones thinner at the expense

01:37:42   of battery life and camera optics.

01:37:45   The idea that things must get thinner and lighter forever is in part, not entirely,

01:37:51   but in part predicated on the assumption that we hate these things.

01:37:56   Eventually you make things smaller and people are like, "Oh thank God, I can carry less

01:38:00   of this bulky work computer that I hate."

01:38:02   People love their phones and they love their phones being great cameras and they love their

01:38:06   phones having decent battery life.

01:38:08   There really is not a massive amount of demand to try to shrink them thinner and thinner

01:38:13   and thinner.

01:38:14   There was that demand back in the days of the Razer phones in the early 2000s.

01:38:18   There was that demand because cell phones back then didn't do that much.

01:38:22   They were much simpler devices.

01:38:24   They didn't have any meaningful camera optics to speak of.

01:38:28   Back then it was like, "Alright, this phone is not doing much for me.

01:38:30   I want this to be as small and light as possible because it isn't that important of a part

01:38:34   of my life and it's not doing that much that would justify bigger things."

01:38:38   That's not true anymore.

01:38:39   Today phones are cameras, number one, and they also do a whole bunch of other stuff.

01:38:45   And so I don't think anybody is really demanding, "I want my phone to start disappearing

01:38:51   out of my life and getting smaller."

01:38:53   No, that's not what anybody wants.

01:38:56   People want their phones to be bigger and do more.

01:38:58   So I don't think the market is going to go in that direction for the foreseeable future

01:39:04   where we're being pressured to shrink phones super thin at the expense of all those other

01:39:11   factors that people actually care a lot about.

01:39:13   I don't think that's what this question was asking though.

01:39:16   I think it was saying, "Why do we think that they'll eventually be thin?

01:39:19   Is it just because we see that in sci-fi movies?"

01:39:21   Or you know, there's two parts to this.

01:39:23   One is like, "How could we possibly get there?

01:39:25   Like are there any advances over the horizon?"

01:39:27   And by the way, I'll contest the idea that we said definitively that within 10 years

01:39:30   the USB-C port would be a limiter.

01:39:32   I think we probably said something like, especially if I said it, it may become the limiter at

01:39:36   some point maybe in the next 10 years.

01:39:37   Lots of qualifiers.

01:39:38   But anyway, why do we think that's even a thing?

01:39:41   Why again, other than seeing it in sci-fi movies, because every sci-fi movie and TV

01:39:45   shows these days show somebody using something that is essentially an iPhone, but it's usually

01:39:51   transparent which is dumb, but you know, sci-fi thing.

01:39:53   But it's always thinner and lighter.

01:39:55   It's basically like a piece of plexiglass that they use CG on top of or whatever.

01:39:59   And that part of it I think is legit.

01:40:01   That's the reason I think that the USB-C port could become the limiter in thickness, again

01:40:05   assuming ports don't disappear before that because that's an obvious thing that A, ports

01:40:09   could disappear and B, something else could replace the visual aspect of the phone like

01:40:15   glasses or whatever.

01:40:16   But anyway, setting that aside, assuming those things don't thwart this idea, the reason

01:40:21   that thinness of a phone, if possible, without compromises, which we'll get to in a second,

01:40:27   is a thing that's still worth pursuing is, Marco should know better than anybody, they

01:40:30   feel big in your pants man.

01:40:32   You put it in your pocket, they're heavy, they're big, they're inflexible.

01:40:36   You want that big screen, but when the Max is in your shorts pocket, it feels a little

01:40:40   bit big.

01:40:41   And if I could tell you, okay, but you can have your iPhone Max but it'll be half the

01:40:44   weight and also bendable and a little bit thinner.

01:40:48   And when you put it in your pants pocket, it would feel more like you have like a very

01:40:51   thin paperback book in there instead of a solid, you know, fragile brick thing, you'd

01:40:56   say, yeah, sign me up.

01:40:58   I think there is room to go within the traditional phone form factor for it to be both lighter

01:41:03   and thinner and also more flexible.

01:41:05   Not a piece of paper because then you can't hold it.

01:41:08   Those are the practical considerations.

01:41:09   Like it can't be too thin because then it becomes uncomfortable to hold, but we could

01:41:13   definitely go thinner than we have now and we can definitely go lighter.

01:41:17   Now with current technology, do we want to go thinner and lighter?

01:41:21   We want to go a little bit lighter.

01:41:22   Titanium, Marco likes that, but we probably don't want to go thinner because it sacrifices

01:41:25   batteries.

01:41:26   So the next part of the question is, okay, if I agree that, yeah, the phone could be

01:41:30   a little bit thinner and lighter and people would like it.

01:41:33   They're not begging for it, they're not dying for it, but people would like it, especially

01:41:36   people who have long memories.

01:41:37   Like the Motorola Razr was less obtrusive in your pocket than any modern phone because

01:41:42   it was just smaller.

01:41:43   Yeah, it was way thicker.

01:41:44   The Motorola Razr was thicker than an iPhone, but length and width wise, it didn't have

01:41:47   a screen.

01:41:48   It was so tiny.

01:41:49   So in terms of how much are you aware of this item in your pockets or in your clothing or

01:41:54   whatever, the Razr was less obtrusive than this.

01:41:57   So given that we have to have these big screens, how do you make something this big, less obtrusive?

01:42:00   A little bit thinner, a little bit lighter, right?

01:42:04   Are there any technologies out there that could get us there?

01:42:07   Camera things is a big problem.

01:42:08   We don't have any good technologies on the horizon for cameras, but the possibility of

01:42:14   not having to deal with the optical stuff for the cameras, Periscope helps a little

01:42:18   bit, although not as much as you would think.

01:42:20   But technologies like a more advanced version of those light field cameras that have like

01:42:25   a million different lenses on them, whatever.

01:42:27   If you could imagine, we've talked about this in past shows ages ago, the entire back of

01:42:31   the phone being a giant flat light sensor of some kind using a technology like imagine

01:42:36   the entire back of the phone is like a giant CMOS sensor, not literally, but you know what

01:42:39   I mean, that type of thing where it's just a different way to capture light than any

01:42:44   of our current technology, like a different approach.

01:42:46   It's not like, oh, can we make current cameras smaller, tiny little pieces of glass or plastic

01:42:51   that focus light beams onto a little sensor?

01:42:54   What if we took an entirely different approach to cameras?

01:42:57   That's the only way you're going to get a breakthrough that allows us to get that thin.

01:43:01   And you'd also need a breakthrough in battery technology because, and that I think is closer.

01:43:05   Like we can say, okay, solid state batteries, which are always five years over the horizon,

01:43:09   they have better energy density.

01:43:10   Some of them have better energy density than currently thin ion things.

01:43:14   You're not going to get much thinner without destroying battery life unless everything

01:43:19   on the phone takes up less power, which is probably not going to happen because you need

01:43:21   to emit the photons for the screen and there's some minimum amount of light that that takes,

01:43:25   or you have a different battery technology.

01:43:27   So maybe, you know, 10 years, that's the saying, everyone overestimates what you can do in a

01:43:32   year and underestimates what can happen in 10 years, right?

01:43:36   Ten years the camera problem isn't going to be solved, but in 10 years there could be

01:43:40   a battery breakthrough that lets our phones get one or two millimeters thinner and then

01:43:43   USB-C is kind of tight.

01:43:46   If tapered phones become a thing for fashion reasons, again, I don't recommend this, but

01:43:52   like if Apple decided that they wanted to have a tapered phone and they'd say, no, we

01:43:56   can't have a USB-C port on it, they would just go with no ports, honestly.

01:44:00   But you know, you can quibble about the time horizon, but the reason I think the pursuit

01:44:06   of thinner phones is out there in the future, if not our future, because we'll be dead is

01:44:12   because yeah, they could stand to be a little bit thinner and a little bit lighter.

01:44:15   And if they're not superseded by glasses, like we don't have to look at this rectangle

01:44:19   anymore because the images are just in front of our eyes, you know, if that doesn't happen,

01:44:23   eventually these things that we carry with us will be thinner and lighter.

01:44:27   All right, Chris Cast writes, do you guys ever use the MagSafe charger on your M1 or

01:44:33   M2 MacBook Pros, or do you just use USB-C charging?

01:44:36   I think I've used MagSafe twice in the last 18 months that I've had the computer, and

01:44:40   both of these times were in the first week I had it.

01:44:42   For me, I don't use MagSafe around the house.

01:44:47   Generally speaking, my computer is plugged into the CalDigit TS4 dock, which is part

01:44:53   of the reason why I was a little surprised that Marco doesn't have a dock, but we went

01:44:56   through why that is already.

01:44:59   The CalDigit provides something like 96 watts of charging.

01:45:04   Occasionally, if I'm working on the back porch, I now, thanks to a one Marco Arment, I have

01:45:09   a much better portable porch monitor, well, mildly portable porch monitor than I've ever

01:45:14   had before.

01:45:15   And, coincidentally, I don't think we talked about it on the show, but I sent Marco a picture

01:45:18   of, or it might have been Marco and John, a picture of me using the Ultrafine 5K on

01:45:23   the back porch with the MagSafe thing plugged in, and Marco asked me why the hell I was

01:45:29   doing that, and I was very confused until I remembered, oh, the Ultrafine also provides

01:45:33   power.

01:45:34   So, around the house, I almost never use it, but pretty much any time I'm working from

01:45:39   somewhere else, like the power supply cable that I use, that I keep in my laptop bag,

01:45:45   is the MagSafe cable.

01:45:46   So earlier today, I was at a local library, and we are very lucky here that we have just

01:45:50   truly phenomenal libraries, and I was using the MagSafe cable literally 12 hours ago.

01:45:55   So that's what I'm doing.

01:45:56   John, you don't believe in laptops, so Marco, what do you do?

01:46:00   At my desk, my desktop laptop is powered by the monitor, as mentioned, so I don't need

01:46:05   one there.

01:46:06   I do have a MagSafe charger in my office for my laptop laptops to charge.

01:46:14   When I travel, I don't bother with MagSafe.

01:46:17   When I travel, I just use USB-C, just because I don't usually need every single one of my

01:46:22   ports all the time when traveling.

01:46:25   But whenever I'm somewhere, like if I'm setting up some kind of AV setup, or I'm doing something

01:46:31   with a laptop that's gonna use a bunch of its ports, then I will use MagSafe, because

01:46:36   it gets me a port.

01:46:37   It gets me an extra port.

01:46:39   But otherwise, for the most part, I use it sometimes, but I don't use it most of the

01:46:45   time and not when traveling.

01:46:46   But I'm glad it's there for the times I do need it for the extra port.

01:46:51   I'm not a laptop person, but if I were, I would be all in on MagSafe.

01:46:55   I have one laptop that, it's not my laptop, but it's the laptop that I use.

01:46:59   It's basically, I use it for, I boot it into Monterey to do Monterey testing.

01:47:04   I'm keeping it on Ventura to do Ventura testing.

01:47:06   It's kind of like a dev thing to me.

01:47:08   It's just sitting in the same room with me.

01:47:09   It's sitting on a desk.

01:47:10   It never moves.

01:47:11   It doesn't even have MagSafe, because it's a 2018 MacBook Air, but it has always had

01:47:15   a thing that I bought for it, which is one of those little like fake MagSafe USB, you

01:47:19   know, you shove it into the USB-C port and it's got a little magnet on it.

01:47:23   That's how much I wanted MagSafe.

01:47:24   I was putting it on my laptops before MagSafe even came back to them.

01:47:28   I think the reason a lot of people end up not using it is because they don't care enough

01:47:31   about it to buy presumably probably pretty expensive MagSafe chargers.

01:47:37   And all around the house, what do you have?

01:47:38   You have USB-C chargers for your USB-C devices, and none of those have MagSafe.

01:47:42   The only thing that has MagSafe is Apple laptops.

01:47:46   So unless you love it so much that every place you're going to bring that laptop, you're

01:47:49   going to go out and buy another MagSafe thing, which is hard to integrate into whatever charting

01:47:54   stuff because it's got its own brick and all that crap.

01:47:56   People aren't going to do that.

01:47:57   I think that's why MagSafe gets less use, because it only comes with one in the box

01:48:00   and you put that one somewhere, but if your laptops are portable and if you're anywhere

01:48:04   else with that laptop, you either have to lug the MagSafe thing for you or you care

01:48:08   so much that you buy them and sprinkle them throughout the house.

01:48:11   If I was a laptop person, I would buy MagSafe things for every single position in the house.

01:48:16   Because I like the idea.

01:48:17   I like MagSafe.

01:48:19   I like sticking it on with a magnet.

01:48:20   I like yanking it off.

01:48:21   I like not worrying about if the cords are going to get caught.

01:48:24   I give it a big thumbs up.

01:48:25   But I don't like laptops, so it's not relevant.

01:48:28   Jack Mordage writes, "I have always used light themes because to my eyes, they were the default

01:48:33   in almost any app, Mac or iOS.

01:48:34   Lately, I have found more and more apps that start with a dark theme, like Visual Studio

01:48:38   Code, for example.

01:48:39   And I'm wondering if maybe I'm the one that lives in the past.

01:48:41   Are you light or dark theme users?

01:48:43   For me, I think I too am living in the past, much like John with his wired mouse.

01:48:48   But I use the auto settings, so roundabouts of sundown.

01:48:54   All of my devices switch to dark mode.

01:48:56   And then during the day, I use light mode.

01:48:58   But it seems like the kids these days are all in on dark mode.

01:49:00   I don't particularly understand that personally.

01:49:03   But as one of the three olds on this program, I will swap back and forth automatically based

01:49:09   on the time of day.

01:49:11   I think I picked on Marco first last time.

01:49:12   So John, what do you do?

01:49:13   I mean, I think the explanation of why kids like dark theme is very easy because it's

01:49:17   cool because things are dark.

01:49:19   It's like dark like Batman and like black book.

01:49:23   That's what the kids are saying.

01:49:24   That's absolutely why.

01:49:26   One of the reasons why people like dark.

01:49:28   The other obviously is eye strain.

01:49:29   You get to have a bunch of bright light shining.

01:49:31   It's the reason you like to go dark at night.

01:49:33   It's nighttime.

01:49:34   It's time for everything to be less lights in my face.

01:49:37   So that makes sense.

01:49:38   For me, I've said this before, the part of the revolution of the Mac, part of the thing

01:49:42   that drew me to it so much is because in the beginning of the personal computer age, every

01:49:46   personal computer I used was a black screen with green or amber text on it.

01:49:50   So it was like the computer by default, it was black, it was a void.

01:49:53   Then light up things would come.

01:49:55   Light up lines, light up text, initially monochrome.

01:49:58   That was how computers worked.

01:49:59   And the Mac was the first thing to flip that.

01:50:02   The Mac, in addition to all its artsy fartsy proportional fonts and Mac Paint or whatever,

01:50:06   the whole point of the Mac is like a sheet of paper.

01:50:09   It's white by default.

01:50:10   And then the text, the lines, everything on it is dark.

01:50:14   And that was like, "Hey, I know that from books and life where the paper we have is

01:50:18   white and if you open up a book, the paper is white and the letters are black."

01:50:22   And I can see, I didn't know what a proportional font was or a serif was, but I could say,

01:50:27   "This Mac screen, it looks like a book because books have dark text on a light background

01:50:32   and books have text that looks like that too."

01:50:35   And that was like a light switch.

01:50:37   It was like, computers aren't just a big black void where green letters appear.

01:50:42   Computers can do everything that you can do in the real world.

01:50:44   It's just that you can erase as many times as you want and you never wear through the

01:50:46   paper.

01:50:47   So from that point on, I was 100% in on white window dark text and I have never looked back.

01:50:57   Even when I first experienced the X window system at school and all the default X themes

01:51:03   for the window managers and stuff or various inverted or dark type things, changed them

01:51:09   all to white background with black text and that's where I am to this day.

01:51:12   Never used dark mode for anything.

01:51:14   Only exception is, on my phone, which I'm much more apt to use like say in a dark bed

01:51:21   before I go to bed, I know you're not supposed to, don't tell me about it.

01:51:24   My Twitter apps have always been dark.

01:51:27   And even on the Mac, Twitterrific on the Mac or Ivory on the Mac, those are always in dark

01:51:33   mode.

01:51:34   I don't know why.

01:51:35   Is it because Twitterrific shipped by default?

01:51:37   Twitter is a dark place.

01:51:38   In 2000, well, back when Twitterrific was great and we loved like in 2006, 2007, whenever

01:51:43   Twitterrific came out, that was its default theme and I am a creature of habit.

01:51:48   And so whenever I'm doing anything Twitter-like on the Mac or on my phone, dark mode always.

01:51:53   But everything else, light mode.

01:51:54   What about terminals?

01:51:55   Light, light, light, always.

01:51:56   That's what I'm saying.

01:51:57   Like when I was using X terms, right?

01:51:59   He was like, nope, I got to change that.

01:52:01   That's got to be black text on a white background, right?

01:52:03   Everyone else's X terms were the reverse of that, but not me.

01:52:05   My terminal on the Mac, white windows, black text.

01:52:08   Yeah, that's funny because even in the only light mode was, the only mode was light mode

01:52:14   in Mac OS up until a few releases ago.

01:52:16   And I would always make my terminals black background with white text on top of it.

01:52:21   Anyway, Marco, what do you do?

01:52:23   Kind of what John does.

01:52:24   So I have my phone auto switch with sunset or whatever, nighttime, whatever.

01:52:29   So because my phone, I am likely to be using my phone at night in dimly lit areas and I

01:52:36   appreciate that difference.

01:52:38   The problem with dark mode on the desktop for me or on any Mac is that what I am doing

01:52:44   on Macs is often content that is inherently going to be light.

01:52:50   So whether it's working on basic document stuff like spreadsheets or whatever or just

01:52:56   web pages, like so many web pages assume light mode and don't even have dark mode.

01:53:02   And yes, I know some of the ones that I am responsible for are some of these web pages.

01:53:05   But anyway, so many web pages assume light mode.

01:53:09   And to me, the kind of mixed window environment of a Mac, and not as mixed as John's maybe,

01:53:16   but you know, the many windowed environment of a Mac, I think it just works better with

01:53:22   everything being light mode.

01:53:23   And like John, I am light everywhere on the Mac.

01:53:26   I have light terminal windows like John, which everyone else, all other programmers besides

01:53:31   me and John think this is like blasphemy.

01:53:34   You have white background with black text in your terminal windows, what?

01:53:37   Still the default in Apple Terminal, I believe.

01:53:39   You get a box stock Apple Terminal, you launch it.

01:53:41   I think Xcode asks you now, do you want lighter dark theme?

01:53:44   But terminal does not.

01:53:45   Terminal defaults to white windows with black text, I think.

01:53:48   Yeah, all of my editors, everything I do in the Mac is light background.

01:53:52   All the different, every app that has an option for dark mode, I don't use it on the Mac.

01:53:58   It is all light, it's blindingly bright.

01:54:01   I run the XDR at its full brightness all of the time.

01:54:04   Oh my.

01:54:05   Wow, that's a lot.

01:54:06   I don't think I do that.

01:54:07   Let me see what level I'm on, hang on.

01:54:08   Oh, I'm not even at 50%.

01:54:09   Yeesh.

01:54:10   It is 10 p.m.

01:54:11   It's dark outside and I'm at full brightness.

01:54:13   Oh, that's too much.

01:54:14   That's too much.

01:54:15   I mean, I am in a dimly lit room, but yet I don't crank it up that much.

01:54:18   I think I do have the auto, do you have the auto brightness thing on your XDR?

01:54:22   No, I turn that off.

01:54:24   In all fairness, I do keep my office very well lit.

01:54:28   The room in is pretty brightly lit most of the time.

01:54:31   During the day it's very brightly lit and then at night I keep it medium brightness.

01:54:35   Yeah, I can't believe you keep it because maximum brightness for non-HDR mode, I believe,

01:54:39   is like 600 nits for the XDR.

01:54:41   I think it's 500, but it isn't that ridiculous.

01:54:44   Yeah, it was on my wife's studio display.

01:54:46   I think that one is 600 at max and the reason I notice it is because her window at a certain

01:54:52   time in the morning, the sun comes through like the slats in the shade and directly hits

01:54:57   the light sensor in her studio display.

01:54:59   So if you're sitting using your computer, all of a sudden the screen goes vroom and

01:55:03   goes to maximum 600 nits.

01:55:04   You're like, "Oh my God, why is this happening?"

01:55:05   And you're like, "Oh, the sun."

01:55:06   Right?

01:55:07   Because you can see this tiny speck of sun lands just on the light sensor.

01:55:10   I do like the audio adjusting because that's the other aspect of why a lot of people use

01:55:14   dark mode.

01:55:16   They complain when a white window appears because it blows their eyeballs out, right?

01:55:21   If your pupils dilate because it's like everything is dim and then one white window appears,

01:55:25   it can ruin your day.

01:55:26   Whereas I feel like I'm protected from that by being in light mode all the time, my pupils

01:55:31   are more constricted because, I mean, granted, I have it on half brightness, but they never

01:55:36   really dilate to the point where one white window is going to pop in.

01:55:39   A black window pops up on my screen does not hurt my eyeball.

01:55:42   So that's just what I'm more comfortable with.

01:55:45   I know a lot of people use light mode and dark mode because it is actually a comfort

01:55:49   and accessibility issue.

01:55:51   For me, I think it's mostly just preference, but I do notice the few times I've actually

01:55:55   tried like legit dark mode, even on my phone or my iPad, I recognize people's complaint.

01:56:01   You try to be in dark mode and then you load one of Marco's websites that he didn't do

01:56:04   dark mode for and you're like, "Oh, I can't see anything."

01:56:07   And that never happens in light mode.

01:56:09   Yeah.

01:56:10   And that also never happens on iPhones nearly as often.

01:56:13   On the iPhone, you are mostly in different apps, not so much in the web browser, and

01:56:19   you're running one thing at a time full screen.

01:56:22   I feel like it's easier on the iPhone to maintain darkness when you're in dark mode.

01:56:28   I found the bigger, not that I have a lot of experience with this, but my short experience

01:56:31   is the bigger and more important the website is, the less likely they are to support dark

01:56:35   mode.

01:56:36   So my dinky blog that I post on twice a year supports dark mode.

01:56:39   Does Amazon.com?

01:56:40   I seriously doubt it, although I'm sure we'll find out as soon as I say these words.

01:56:45   Casey can check.

01:56:46   Please check, Casey, because you're in dark mode right now.

01:56:48   Well, but the thing is, is that I was just about to say I use an app called Noire, N-O-I-R,

01:56:55   that does a really good best guess at what a dark mode style sheet would look like for

01:57:03   websites that don't have their dark mode.

01:57:06   And so my Amazon looks like it supports dark mode, but based on what I'm seeing from Noire,

01:57:13   it's Noire doing it, it's not Amazon doing it.

01:57:16   No, it absolutely does not.

01:57:17   I just turned on dark mode and these products are all in a white background.

01:57:20   Yeah, exactly.

01:57:21   So Noire, we'll put a link in the show notes.

01:57:23   I think I got this from Gruber potentially years ago, but it's very, very good.

01:57:27   It works on iOS, iPadOS.

01:57:29   I don't remember if it's different purchases or universal, but one way or another, it works

01:57:33   on all the major Apple platforms that have web browsers, so I definitely recommend it.

01:57:39   It's the only way that I can use dark mode in ever open Safari, because otherwise it's

01:57:43   a nightmare.

01:57:44   Thanks to our sponsors this week, Green Chef, Trade Coffee, and Squarespace.

01:57:50   And thanks to our members who support us directly.

01:57:52   You can join us at ATP.fm/join, and we will talk to you next week.

01:57:57   [music]

01:58:04   [music]

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01:58:26   [music]

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01:58:50   [music]

01:58:58   I think you two should reproduce the window dragon bug in the after show.

01:59:03   No.

01:59:04   Absolutely not.

01:59:05   While I'm running the broadcast?

01:59:06   No.

01:59:07   Absolutely not.

01:59:08   No, because like I said, you shouldn't be afraid of it, because it is not a thing that

01:59:11   overloads your system.

01:59:12   Like, it's not a load-based thing.

01:59:15   Can I switch users?

01:59:16   No, you don't need to switch users.

01:59:18   You can do it with single users.

01:59:19   It's just harder.

01:59:20   No, I'm not opening 150 windows like you do, John.

01:59:23   I'm not doing that.

01:59:24   Sure, it'll be super fun.

01:59:25   I have too much empathy for the machine, John.

01:59:27   This is like peer pressure.

01:59:28   Take these drugs.

01:59:29   It's not going to hurt the machine.

01:59:30   The machine does not care about the windows.

01:59:32   I care about the windows.

01:59:33   I guess at a certain point the backing stores are going to use lots of RAM.

01:59:36   But anyway, you've got plenty of RAM.

01:59:38   You can do it.

01:59:39   It'll hurt my soul.

01:59:40   I'm not going to.

01:59:41   Exactly.

01:59:42   I'm not going to do this during a broadcast when I have a live recording running.

01:59:45   Oh, you're so afraid.

01:59:46   You can stop the recording and commit the file to disk and start a new recording.

01:59:49   Wow.

01:59:50   You should live a little.

01:59:51   No, then you're going to mess up my sync operation later.

01:59:54   No, I don't want to do that.

01:59:55   What are we looking to establish?

01:59:57   Like, I don't doubt that I could.

01:59:59   I just want you to feel it.

02:00:00   I just want you to experience it.

02:00:02   Phrasing.

02:00:03   Phrasing.

02:00:04   Okay, so how would I go about doing this without adding any other users?

02:00:09   Oh, God.

02:00:10   Don't mess up the recording, please.

02:00:11   Okay, Casey, mess up a recording?

02:00:13   What are you talking about?

02:00:14   You've got so many backups.

02:00:15   He's fine.

02:00:16   Yeah, that's never happened.

02:00:17   The hardware recorder's running.

02:00:18   All right, so what do I do?

02:00:19   Just mash on Command-N a thousand times?

02:00:20   You just open up TextEdit.

02:00:22   Well, first of all, when you open up TextEdit, this is interesting.

02:00:25   When you open TextEdit, does it open any windows, or do you get the open save dialog box?

02:00:28   No, I get the open save dialog.

02:00:30   Okay, well, just hit cancel.

02:00:31   And then you're just going to hold down Command-N, sir, and what you're going to see is a line

02:00:35   of windows that say "Untitled 1," "Untitled 2," "Untitled 3," so you'll know exactly

02:00:38   how many you opened.

02:00:39   So maybe stop around 50 first.

02:00:40   Oh, my God.

02:00:41   Oh, I already went to 70.

02:00:42   Sorry.

02:00:43   All right.

02:00:44   All right, so now I just drag around.

02:00:46   Just grab one of those windows and move it around.

02:00:47   How's it feeling for you?

02:00:49   Totally fine.

02:00:50   And by the way, I have two 5K monitors and my laptop screen all open right now.

02:00:55   It doesn't -- none of that matters.

02:00:56   Do you have third-party RAM installed?

02:00:59   No, this is a laptop.

02:01:00   No, I did hardware diagnostics.

02:01:03   When I was doing the hardware thing, I ran the hardware diagnostic on my Mac Pro when

02:01:07   I was thinking it's got to be hardware.

02:01:11   Everything has had such a spring clean.

02:01:12   Okay, go to 150.

02:01:13   All right, 80, 90, 100.

02:01:15   Look how fast it opens them.

02:01:17   It's nothing.

02:01:18   It's nothing to your computer.

02:01:19   It's 20, 130, 140, 150.

02:01:20   God, I hate this.

02:01:21   152, I stopped a little too soon.

02:01:23   It's still fine.

02:01:24   Yeah, I think 182, it should be a little bit faster.

02:01:27   It's still fine.

02:01:30   Yeah, I think a hundred and two, you should be able to perceive something.

02:01:31   Give it a real good -- here's the thing.

02:01:33   Trackpad's like do a little bit of smoothing, maybe messing you up.

02:01:36   But take a look at where the cursor is in the title bar.

02:01:39   Like click somewhere and see --

02:01:41   Oh, yeah, okay, I'm losing -- I'm migrating off of the title bar over time.

02:01:46   But this is -- the response rate is so good.

02:01:48   You know what, actually --

02:01:49   Yeah, if you were to log into a second user now, it would be fully on.

02:01:52   But I know you can't do that.

02:01:53   So go to 300.

02:01:54   No, I'll stop at 200 first.

02:01:56   Thank you very much.

02:01:57   This is like driving on the gas -- when the gas tank goes on E to see how far you can go.

02:02:02   Oh, no.

02:02:03   You got to keep going, Casey.

02:02:04   Let's see.

02:02:05   Okay, 200.

02:02:06   All right, here we go.

02:02:07   I'm going to put my cursor over the U.

02:02:09   This will do it much better with a visual aid, but here we are.

02:02:11   All right, here we go.

02:02:12   This is the worst podcast.

02:02:14   I'm definitely getting some significant migration from the pointer.

02:02:20   The jumpiness is what you'll probably start to notice first because --

02:02:23   I don't notice really any jumpiness.

02:02:25   It's just I notice that where I put my -- so I put the mouse cursor inside the U in Untitled,

02:02:30   and it doesn't take a lot of squiggling about before it moves.

02:02:33   All right, so stop your recording, switch your different account, and come back.

02:02:37   No, no, I'm not doing that.

02:02:39   I'm not doing that.

02:02:40   That's why next week I'll have to have you guys log into a second account before we begin recording

02:02:45   because you'd be fully into it at this point with a second user logged in.

02:02:48   I don't know.

02:02:49   My computer isn't a piece of shit, and it seems to be just fine.

02:02:52   No, like I said, the second user is not like -- it is not just like a multiplying factor.

02:02:56   All right, here we go, baby, 250.

02:02:58   Let's keep going.

02:02:59   All right, 210, 220.

02:03:02   This is nuts.

02:03:03   230.

02:03:04   I don't know when it will stop you.

02:03:05   I've never done more than 300.

02:03:07   These windows are opening awfully slowly.

02:03:09   I will say that.

02:03:10   Oh, I actually -- I overshot.

02:03:11   I went to 251.

02:03:12   It also makes you kind of wish the animation wasn't there, like how much time is it spending

02:03:15   just doing the animation, slowing down?

02:03:16   I mean, again, it's still -- I'm not debating.

02:03:20   I'm not trying to say that you're wrong or a liar or anything like that.

02:03:23   Just your computer sucks.

02:03:25   My cursor is definitely migrating, including off of the title bar from time to time.

02:03:29   But in terms of jumpiness or whatever --

02:03:33   Yeah, yeah, so when you're done with the recording, log into a second user, log back to the --

02:03:36   No.

02:03:37   -- grab one of those windows, you will see a big difference.

02:03:39   I will not, sir.

02:03:40   I'm stopping at 300 in just a second, 275.

02:03:42   Yeah, just leave them there.

02:03:44   No, I'm not.

02:03:45   290.

02:03:46   You should go in Activity Monitor to see how much RAM TextEdit is using now.

02:03:49   I way overshot because I hit the end button way too many times.

02:03:52   All right, hold on.

02:03:53   Activity Monitor.

02:03:54   If my computer doesn't die and if this recording is actually good, I will be very surprised.

02:03:59   Yeah, please don't ruin the recording.

02:04:01   I don't want to have to deal with a weird re-syncing.

02:04:03   Oh, God.

02:04:04   All right, let's see.

02:04:06   Let's see, memory.

02:04:08   TextEdit is using less than a gigabyte of memory.

02:04:10   Look at that.

02:04:11   And sort by CPU now.

02:04:12   How much CPU is TextEdit using?

02:04:15   16.9.

02:04:17   There were several other things that were using more.

02:04:20   All right, anyway, let me start dragging some windows.

02:04:23   No, it's fine, John.

02:04:24   It's fine.

02:04:25   All right, leave them there.

02:04:26   Go along into a second account.

02:04:27   No.

02:04:28   No, we're not doing that.

02:04:29   Not now when you're done with the recording.

02:04:31   No, I'm not doing that.

02:04:32   I don't even have another account on this machine.

02:04:33   You don't have another account?

02:04:34   No.

02:04:35   That's not that common.

02:04:36   Well, then why were you doing that?

02:04:37   That cursor is definitely migrating way off the title bar now.

02:04:41   How far can you get it off the title bar?

02:04:43   Can you get it like three inches off?

02:04:44   How high can you get, man?

02:04:46   Right?

02:04:47   All right, I'm quitting TextEdit at 309 windows.

02:04:49   This is just bananas.

02:04:51   Oh, no, you should have closed the windows.

02:04:52   What are you doing?

02:04:53   That when you relaunch TextEdit, are they going to all go for you?

02:04:56   Yes.

02:04:57   Wait, wait, how do I-- what command option W?

02:05:00   Command option W before you quit.

02:05:02   Okay, so you'll thank me.

02:05:03   Oh, my gosh.

02:05:04   The fun thing is when you launch TextEdit and it has 300 windows open, you see all the

02:05:07   shadows appear first and then the windows pop in.

02:05:10   It's really weird.

02:05:11   All right, I think I have successfully cleaned everything up.

02:05:14   Thank you, sir.

02:05:15   That would have been very bad.

02:05:16   And I would have--

02:05:17   It would have been great like next time you just open some random document and that's

02:05:20   what happens.

02:05:21   That stressed you out, but it did not stress your computer.

02:05:23   Your computer could handle it just fine.

02:05:25   It stressed out your co-host.

02:05:29   Marco with his mighty computer wouldn't even try it.

02:05:32   Not while I'm recording a podcast with that said mighty computer, no.

02:05:36   I'm saying it's not going to stress anything.

02:05:37   Oh, my God.

02:05:38   So the question is, do I have enough confidence in my superior tier $17,000 computer laptop?

02:05:44   This is actually-- can we not agree, Marco, that this is yet more proof that laptops are

02:05:48   superior to desktops?

02:05:49   That's what it seems like.

02:05:50   I don't think that's relevant at all.

02:05:52   I'm pretty sure that's what we just--

02:05:53   If I had that M2 Ultra Mac Pro.

02:05:56   (laughing)

02:05:58   (beeping)