ATP

00:00:00 ◼   ► I fixed something today.

00:00:02 ◼   ► - I mended something!

00:00:04 ◼   ► I don't know if you'll get that reference.

00:00:06 ◼   ► It's a Jeremy Clarkson thing.

00:00:08 ◼   ► - Oh, okay.

00:00:09 ◼   ► - Anyway, carry on, what did you fix?

00:00:11 ◼   ► - It took three weeks,

00:00:13 ◼   ► but I have fixed my stupid Dyson vacuum broken trigger.

00:00:16 ◼   ► - I was not aware that you had a Dyson vacuum

00:00:18 ◼   ► with a broken trigger.

00:00:20 ◼   ► - Long story short, yes I use Dyson vacuums,

00:00:23 ◼   ► of course I do.

00:00:23 ◼   ► Years ago when it came time to buy a new vacuum,

00:00:28 ◼   ► I did all the research and I looked at the specs

00:00:31 ◼   ► and I'm like, I got this giant upright Miele vacuum

00:00:35 ◼   ► that has like massive suction power

00:00:37 ◼   ► and is amazing to pull out all sorts of crap from rugs.

00:00:41 ◼   ► But it's super heavy and corded

00:00:43 ◼   ► and therefore I hardly ever use it.

00:00:45 ◼   ► Meanwhile, one year TIFF requested one of these little

00:00:47 ◼   ► like cordless Dyson thingies,

00:00:49 ◼   ► like the V7 or eight or nine or whatever it was back then.

00:00:53 ◼   ► - Which by the way must have incredible profit margins

00:00:55 ◼   ► because they are so expensive, I also have one.

00:00:58 ◼   ► - Oh, and before we go any further,

00:01:00 ◼   ► so we have one of the, not OG, but an older corded,

00:01:05 ◼   ► upright Dyson vacuum with the ball on the bottom.

00:01:08 ◼   ► I remember we got it from like, I don't know, Woot.com,

00:01:12 ◼   ► it was considerably discounted

00:01:15 ◼   ► and I gotta say I'm not that impressed with it.

00:01:16 ◼   ► So do you like the cordless one?

00:01:18 ◼   ► Because the corded, I did not think was that great.

00:01:20 ◼   ► - I also had an upright one

00:01:22 ◼   ► and I didn't like it and ditched it,

00:01:23 ◼   ► but the cordless one, I feel like comes closer

00:01:28 ◼   ► to justifying its insane price.

00:01:29 ◼   ► - Yeah, so I actually had that exact same

00:01:31 ◼   ► heavily discounted Dyson standup ball one

00:01:34 ◼   ► from a million years ago.

00:01:35 ◼   ► It eventually broke in some way

00:01:37 ◼   ► that I didn't feel that it was worth fixing.

00:01:39 ◼   ► Although I actually did fix it a couple of times

00:01:42 ◼   ► along the way there because one of the positives

00:01:44 ◼   ► about Dyson is that while they're not the best built things

00:01:47 ◼   ► in the world, there are lots of service parts available

00:01:50 ◼   ► for not that, and they aren't that hard to get

00:01:52 ◼   ► and they aren't that expensive,

00:01:53 ◼   ► so that you can at least service them to some degree,

00:01:56 ◼   ► which is nice, but anyway.

00:01:57 ◼   ► So the problem is, so I had this beautiful up,

00:02:00 ◼   ► this big upright heavy thing, and it was,

00:02:03 ◼   ► we just never used it.

00:02:04 ◼   ► Like I would use it occasionally,

00:02:05 ◼   ► but like no one else in the house would ever use it.

00:02:07 ◼   ► Everyone hated it and I would never like bring it upstairs.

00:02:10 ◼   ► It's too heavy and all this stuff.

00:02:11 ◼   ► So anyway, one year Tiff requested one of the Dyson V

00:02:13 ◼   ► whatever's for Christmas and everyone loved it

00:02:17 ◼   ► and that's all we ever used from that point forward

00:02:18 ◼   ► and the Miele still sits in the closet and never gets used.

00:02:21 ◼   ► Problem is they are built crappily in certain ways

00:02:23 ◼   ► and one of those ways is the little red trigger

00:02:25 ◼   ► that you squeeze.

00:02:27 ◼   ► If you search the internet for Dyson broken triggers,

00:02:30 ◼   ► you'll see these are horribly designed.

00:02:34 ◼   ► All the pressure to hold that trigger

00:02:35 ◼   ► against the battery terminals is this little thin piece

00:02:38 ◼   ► of plastic that cracks very easily.

00:02:40 ◼   ► - One thing about those triggers though,

00:02:41 ◼   ► one thing they did get right about the triggers

00:02:43 ◼   ► is the effort to pull the trigger is very, very low

00:02:46 ◼   ► because it would get fatiguing if you were holding it

00:02:48 ◼   ► and you had to like hold the trigger

00:02:49 ◼   ► and it was like fighting you the whole time.

00:02:51 ◼   ► Incredibly weak springs in there,

00:02:54 ◼   ► so it's very easy to hold it down

00:02:55 ◼   ► and I believe in the current versions of this,

00:02:58 ◼   ► they just got rid of the trigger entirely

00:02:59 ◼   ► so they probably should have done

00:03:00 ◼   ► because who wants to hold the thing down all the time?

00:03:01 ◼   ► I think it's like a switch or something

00:03:03 ◼   ► on the most recent ones, so mine hasn't broke

00:03:06 ◼   ► and I have always appreciated that they made the trigger

00:03:08 ◼   ► really easy to pull but I also kind of wish

00:03:11 ◼   ► it didn't have a trigger.

00:03:12 ◼   ► - Anyway, to answer your question Casey

00:03:14 ◼   ► about how good they are, the problem is

00:03:16 ◼   ► they're not super good at being vacuums,

00:03:18 ◼   ► like they're okay at being vacuums

00:03:20 ◼   ► but they're really convenient.

00:03:22 ◼   ► It doesn't really matter that they're not great vacuums,

00:03:25 ◼   ► it matters that that's the one you're gonna grab

00:03:27 ◼   ► and use the most often.

00:03:27 ◼   ► The same way like your phone is not a great camera

00:03:31 ◼   ► but it's an okay camera and it's always there

00:03:33 ◼   ► and you're always gonna use it

00:03:34 ◼   ► and you're gonna be using it way more

00:03:36 ◼   ► than you use your better camera.

00:03:37 ◼   ► Even though you have a better camera,

00:03:39 ◼   ► it's the same kind of thing.

00:03:40 ◼   ► - Well it does have, the thing I'll say

00:03:41 ◼   ► for the Dyson handheld is they do have a lot of suction

00:03:44 ◼   ► for their size and weight because I've had a lot

00:03:46 ◼   ► of handheld vacuums over the years starting with the,

00:03:48 ◼   ► my parents' dust buster back when dust busters were a thing

00:03:51 ◼   ► and they came in beige, those were terrible

00:03:53 ◼   ► and I've had other handheld ones over the years

00:03:56 ◼   ► and the Dyson handheld like per unit mass,

00:04:00 ◼   ► like suction per unit mass is really good on it

00:04:03 ◼   ► as long as you keep it clean.

00:04:05 ◼   ► Everything else about it is a little cheap

00:04:06 ◼   ► and the battery dies pretty quickly

00:04:07 ◼   ► and they're really expensive to replace

00:04:08 ◼   ► but still the best handheld I've found

00:04:10 ◼   ► but I can't, it has not made it to my good products list

00:04:13 ◼   ► because I feel like it's just too expensive.

00:04:15 ◼   ► - Yeah and they're not amazing products,

00:04:18 ◼   ► they're just decent products and the competition is worse

00:04:21 ◼   ► as far as I know.

00:04:22 ◼   ► Anyway, so my trigger broke, I had to replace it

00:04:24 ◼   ► and it became one of these projects like all right,

00:04:26 ◼   ► first of all, you order the replacement trigger,

00:04:29 ◼   ► it gets here, so that's four or five days.

00:04:32 ◼   ► Then I have the replacement, I start taking the vacuum apart

00:04:35 ◼   ► based on YouTube videos that tell me how to take stuff apart

00:04:37 ◼   ► and I realize, oh, I don't have a screwdriver

00:04:40 ◼   ► that can reach down this long skinny hole

00:04:43 ◼   ► to get to the screw, like this deeply recessed screw.

00:04:46 ◼   ► So now I gotta order some skinny screwdriver.

00:04:49 ◼   ► There goes another four days, five days.

00:04:51 ◼   ► Then I finally get it in there, I finally get down,

00:04:55 ◼   ► I get in there, I need another screwdriver.

00:04:57 ◼   ► This time I need a Torx bit on the end

00:04:59 ◼   ► of a long skinny screwdriver.

00:04:59 ◼   ► All right, four more days.

00:05:01 ◼   ► - Read ahead in the instructions, Margot,

00:05:03 ◼   ► find out which tools you're gonna need.

00:05:05 ◼   ► - Well, they're all just YouTube videos,

00:05:06 ◼   ► they're not good at documentation.

00:05:07 ◼   ► Anyway, so then eventually I finally have all the tools

00:05:11 ◼   ► I need, I finally get to the trigger,

00:05:13 ◼   ► which by the way is hilariously complicated

00:05:16 ◼   ► and hostile to get to.

00:05:18 ◼   ► It's like repairing a butterfly keyboard.

00:05:21 ◼   ► It's just, you have to take apart the entire thing

00:05:23 ◼   ► and you're really diving it, you have to bend

00:05:26 ◼   ► these terminals, it's a ridiculous process.

00:05:28 ◼   ► I finally get in there and I put, and I was smart,

00:05:32 ◼   ► I bought a metal trigger so it wouldn't break.

00:05:35 ◼   ► I go to put the metal trigger on, it doesn't fit

00:05:39 ◼   ► without bending it because it's like,

00:05:41 ◼   ► you have to bend and snap it on and the moment

00:05:44 ◼   ► I bend it even slightly to get it to fit, it breaks.

00:05:47 ◼   ► - Oh, it's stupendous.

00:05:49 ◼   ► - So, order plastic ones, another five days.

00:05:53 ◼   ► - I'm not sure I agree with the actor in that sentence

00:05:56 ◼   ► if there was one.

00:05:58 ◼   ► - I broke it, okay, I broke it.

00:06:00 ◼   ► - I think that's more accurate.

00:06:01 ◼   ► - But I was trying, I'm like, is there any way

00:06:03 ◼   ► I can get this to somehow snap on?

00:06:06 ◼   ► - Was it the wrong part?

00:06:07 ◼   ► - No, it was the right part, but it's one of those things,

00:06:10 ◼   ► this is from Dyson, this is like Amazon Randos.

00:06:13 ◼   ► - Oh yeah, no, especially for the batteries,

00:06:16 ◼   ► I would not recommend buying the much cheaper ones

00:06:18 ◼   ► from Amazon because--

00:06:19 ◼   ► - Oh, batteries, definitely I wouldn't, no.

00:06:21 ◼   ► But a little plastic piece that Dyson misdesigned

00:06:23 ◼   ► from the start, no.

00:06:24 ◼   ► Anyway, so the Amazon ones have like,

00:06:26 ◼   ► they have like more plastic in the right areas.

00:06:27 ◼   ► Anyway, so finally, another five days go by,

00:06:31 ◼   ► I finally get my plastic ones, today I finally

00:06:34 ◼   ► put it back on and reassembled it and it works.

00:06:37 ◼   ► And it took such a ridiculously long time

00:06:40 ◼   ► and it was so not worth it, if I'm honest with you.

00:06:43 ◼   ► I must have lost like five hours to this project at least.

00:06:47 ◼   ► - Oh my word.

00:06:48 ◼   ► - Probably still worthy, 'cause you don't wanna buy

00:06:50 ◼   ► another one of those, they're just too expensive.

00:06:52 ◼   ► - I know, but the one I was repairing

00:06:53 ◼   ► was like five years old, so it's like,

00:06:54 ◼   ► it wasn't super new, but it's almost not worth it.

00:06:57 ◼   ► Anyway, even though I hate these things,

00:06:59 ◼   ► they still are the ones I go for the most

00:07:01 ◼   ► and I do the most vacuuming in the house,

00:07:03 ◼   ► so I guess that's important.

00:07:04 ◼   ► - Jon, there's some exciting news.

00:07:08 ◼   ► - It's not, it's old news, I just wanna mention it again.

00:07:11 ◼   ► I'm still selling my shirts and since they're only sold

00:07:14 ◼   ► every five years, I made the sale extra, extra long,

00:07:18 ◼   ► which I do not wanna hear people say,

00:07:19 ◼   ► "Oh, I just missed the sale, the sale's running,

00:07:21 ◼   ► "it's running so long."

00:07:22 ◼   ► I apologize to the people who ordered their shirts already,

00:07:24 ◼   ► they're like, "When is my shirt coming?"

00:07:25 ◼   ► Like the sale's not even over yet.

00:07:26 ◼   ► It ends Saturday, August 12th,

00:07:28 ◼   ► if you want a Hypercritical shirt,

00:07:30 ◼   ► I hope you're hearing this before Saturday, August 12th,

00:07:33 ◼   ► do the Casey thing and like pull over to the side

00:07:35 ◼   ► of the road and order it, like don't set it off 'til later

00:07:37 ◼   ► because they're not coming back for five years.

00:07:40 ◼   ► I'm excited by the way that I think,

00:07:41 ◼   ► so it's 2028, they'll be back, that means in 10 years

00:07:44 ◼   ► after that it'll be 2038, which is the 32-bit rollover

00:07:47 ◼   ► of the UNIX Epoch, I think.

00:07:48 ◼   ► - Oh my gosh, nerd. - So that'll be a fun one.

00:07:50 ◼   ► But anyway, don't wait, if you want a shirt, get one.

00:07:52 ◼   ► That's what they're here for.

00:07:53 ◼   ► For all the people who have these shirts

00:07:55 ◼   ► and they're wearing out or they didn't get one last time

00:07:57 ◼   ► and they want one, Hypercritical shirts,

00:07:59 ◼   ► go to hypercritical.co/shirt before August 12th.

00:08:03 ◼   ► - If you're listening to this now, like Jon alluded to,

00:08:06 ◼   ► please pull over to the side of the sidewalk

00:08:08 ◼   ► if you're in New York, to the side of the road

00:08:10 ◼   ► if you're almost anywhere else,

00:08:12 ◼   ► and go ahead, take out your phone, hypercritical.co/shirt.

00:08:17 ◼   ► - What if you're on one of those giant escalators

00:08:19 ◼   ► for the London Underground?

00:08:21 ◼   ► Like, do you have enough space

00:08:22 ◼   ► to like squeeze over to the right?

00:08:24 ◼   ► - No, don't do it then, because you're not gonna notice

00:08:26 ◼   ► when the top of the, or bottom of the escalator comes

00:08:28 ◼   ► and you're just gonna like fall over and cause a big mess.

00:08:30 ◼   ► Wait until you're off the escalator

00:08:31 ◼   ► and then step to the side.

00:08:32 ◼   ► - Well, and plus, what side of the escalator do you stop on?

00:08:35 ◼   ► 'Cause they drive on the wrong side of the road.

00:08:38 ◼   ► Do they also walk on the wrong side of the road?

00:08:39 ◼   ► - Yeah, there's no way to tell there.

00:08:41 ◼   ► It's like tipping, there's no way to tell what to do.

00:08:43 ◼   ► (laughing)

00:08:45 ◼   ► - It's not true.

00:08:45 ◼   ► Anyway, hypercritical.co/shirt.

00:08:47 ◼   ► We got a piece of follow-up from Wilson Martinez,

00:08:50 ◼   ► and Wilson writes, "I can't figure out who is who

00:08:52 ◼   ► when listening.

00:08:53 ◼   ► Can you say your names in the next podcast

00:08:55 ◼   ► so I can put a name to a voice?"

00:08:56 ◼   ► Well, I'm Casey, and I'm the normal one.

00:09:00 ◼   ► And you can take that however you'd like.

00:09:02 ◼   ► Marco, how would you like to introduce yourself?

00:09:04 ◼   ► - I'm Marco, and I'm the jerk.

00:09:05 ◼   ► (laughing)

00:09:08 ◼   ► - John.

00:09:09 ◼   ► - You have to say more.

00:09:10 ◼   ► - The whole point of this segment is

00:09:11 ◼   ► you get to hear our voices.

00:09:12 ◼   ► This is John, this is what my voice sounds like.

00:09:14 ◼   ► It's a little bit like Kermit the Frog.

00:09:15 ◼   ► I don't think my voice sounds anything like the other two.

00:09:17 ◼   ► I think we have very distinct voices,

00:09:19 ◼   ► but you might not know.

00:09:20 ◼   ► So if you're wondering, who's John, that's me.

00:09:22 ◼   ► S-I-R-A-C-U-S-A, Syracuse.

00:09:24 ◼   ► That's me.

00:09:25 ◼   ► This is my voice.

00:09:26 ◼   ► You're hearing my voice right now.

00:09:27 ◼   ► See how much content I'm giving them?

00:09:29 ◼   ► So they'll know this is my voice,

00:09:30 ◼   ► whereas they just heard Casey briefly,

00:09:32 ◼   ► and they've already forgotten what he sounds like.

00:09:33 ◼   ► And Marco said like two words,

00:09:35 ◼   ► and then Casey laughed over him.

00:09:36 ◼   ► So they don't know who Marco is, but they know who I am.

00:09:38 ◼   ► They'll figure out the rest.

00:09:40 ◼   ► - It'll be fine.

00:09:40 ◼   ► My voice is my passport.

00:09:41 ◼   ► Verify me.

00:09:42 ◼   ► - Who said that?

00:09:43 ◼   ► - That was Casey speaking.

00:09:44 ◼   ► - Every time we speak there, we have to say,

00:09:46 ◼   ► "Hi, this is John.

00:09:47 ◼   ► "I'm speaking now."

00:09:48 ◼   ► (laughing)

00:09:49 ◼   ► - Hi, this is Tim.

00:09:51 ◼   ► - No, you're confusing people now they think you're Tim.

00:09:53 ◼   ► You have to go back and say you're Casey.

00:09:54 ◼   ► - We don't have a Tim.

00:09:56 ◼   ► - The reason I put this in the show notes

00:09:57 ◼   ► is because I wanted like a chapter marker to send people,

00:09:59 ◼   ► because lots of people can't distinguish our voices,

00:10:01 ◼   ► and we don't introduce ourselves.

00:10:03 ◼   ► And I apologize for that,

00:10:03 ◼   ► but it's just part of the show format.

00:10:05 ◼   ► But from now on, if someone asks,

00:10:06 ◼   ► I'll save this in a little notes document,

00:10:08 ◼   ► and I'll send it to them,

00:10:09 ◼   ► and I'll be able to listen to this,

00:10:11 ◼   ► and they'll hear me saying,

00:10:12 ◼   ► "Yes, this is John.

00:10:13 ◼   ► "This is what my voice sounds like."

00:10:14 ◼   ► Sometimes I mumble.

00:10:16 ◼   ► - We couldn't have done a better job of this.

00:10:18 ◼   ► To introduce people to who we are in our show.

00:10:20 ◼   ► - Who's talking?

00:10:21 ◼   ► I don't recognize that voice.

00:10:22 ◼   ► - Oh my gosh.

00:10:23 ◼   ► - Yeah, sorry, this is Marco.

00:10:25 ◼   ► Over.

00:10:25 ◼   ► - Oh no, no, it's happening again.

00:10:27 ◼   ► (laughing)

00:10:28 ◼   ► - Just every time we talk, it's like IRC.

00:10:30 ◼   ► We have to prefix it with our name.

00:10:31 ◼   ► Marco, colon.

00:10:32 ◼   ► Casey, no, I'm screwing it up now.

00:10:33 ◼   ► Edit that out, Marco.

00:10:34 ◼   ► We're gonna confuse people.

00:10:35 ◼   ► - Oh no, no, no.

00:10:36 ◼   ► - Oh my gosh.

00:10:37 ◼   ► The funny thing is, I don't know,

00:10:38 ◼   ► something like two years ago,

00:10:40 ◼   ► I got a bur up my keister about this.

00:10:42 ◼   ► This is, hi, this is Casey.

00:10:44 ◼   ► Like two years ago, I got a bur up my keister about this.

00:10:48 ◼   ► Casey got a bur up his own keister about this.

00:10:50 ◼   ► - Why are you putting burrs up there?

00:10:53 ◼   ► - Anyway, just bear with me here.

00:10:54 ◼   ► - He got a bur.

00:10:55 ◼   ► He didn't say how it got there.

00:10:56 ◼   ► It's passive voice.

00:10:57 ◼   ► - Yeah, I bet ER doctors hear a lot of that.

00:10:59 ◼   ► It got there.

00:11:00 ◼   ► I don't know how it got there.

00:11:01 ◼   ► - One in a million shot, doc.

00:11:02 ◼   ► - One in a million.

00:11:03 ◼   ► Anyway, so I had put together a meet your hosts page

00:11:08 ◼   ► on the ATP website, which is there.

00:11:10 ◼   ► It's been there this whole time.

00:11:12 ◼   ► The call's coming from inside the house.

00:11:13 ◼   ► - It is?

00:11:14 ◼   ► - Yes, ATP.fm/hosts.

00:11:16 ◼   ► And I put this together a while ago,

00:11:17 ◼   ► and the funny thing is, I put together a blurb

00:11:20 ◼   ► for Marco and for John and myself.

00:11:22 ◼   ► And I think both of them tweaked the blurb

00:11:25 ◼   ► that I gave them, at least a little.

00:11:27 ◼   ► - I didn't tweet this.

00:11:28 ◼   ► I would never leave a semicolon in my blurb.

00:11:30 ◼   ► - Oh, we gotta change this.

00:11:31 ◼   ► It links to my Twitter handle, come on.

00:11:33 ◼   ► Oh, this was years ago!

00:11:35 ◼   ► Stay with me.

00:11:36 ◼   ► Anyway, the point is--

00:11:38 ◼   ► - I've gotten taller since then.

00:11:40 ◼   ► - I don't think you have.

00:11:41 ◼   ► (laughing)

00:11:42 ◼   ► - This is going so far off the rails, it's ridiculous.

00:11:44 ◼   ► But anyways, the funny thing to me though

00:11:46 ◼   ► is that Marco, I think you at least acknowledged

00:11:49 ◼   ► the existence of this page two years ago, whatever it was,

00:11:51 ◼   ► and then basically ignored it,

00:11:52 ◼   ► which is typical Marco fashion.

00:11:54 ◼   ► That's neither good nor bad.

00:11:54 ◼   ► It's just typical Marco.

00:11:56 ◼   ► John, however, could not let this thing

00:11:58 ◼   ► that no other human has seen until today stand,

00:12:01 ◼   ► and triple the size of his little blurb,

00:12:03 ◼   ► making it far more involved than either of the two of us.

00:12:06 ◼   ► - Yeah, 'cause if you're gonna tell people who you are,

00:12:08 ◼   ► say something to distinguish who you are,

00:12:10 ◼   ► like you may know me from such things as Troy McClure style.

00:12:13 ◼   ► - Anyways, it probably should be updated,

00:12:16 ◼   ► but what I was envisioning was not only would we have

00:12:19 ◼   ► this image of us and little blurbs about each of us,

00:12:23 ◼   ► but I envisioned having Marco microphone review style

00:12:28 ◼   ► snippets of us talking from the show

00:12:30 ◼   ► or perhaps even introducing ourselves or whatever.

00:12:32 ◼   ► This has been such a train wreck that we cannot extract

00:12:35 ◼   ► any of this to use on this page.

00:12:36 ◼   ► - No, that's exactly correct for our show.

00:12:39 ◼   ► - Yes.

00:12:40 ◼   ► - It should be a giant train wreck.

00:12:41 ◼   ► Although it occurs to me that it sounds,

00:12:43 ◼   ► introducing ourselves, that's what they do

00:12:44 ◼   ► on the earnings calls, you know?

00:12:46 ◼   ► - Yep, yep.

00:12:47 ◼   ► - Like, "You're doing this, hi, this is Tim," or whatever.

00:12:48 ◼   ► This is not Tim, this is still John, don't be confused.

00:12:50 ◼   ► (laughing)

00:12:52 ◼   ► We're doing a terrible job of this.

00:12:54 ◼   ► This is amazing.

00:12:56 ◼   ► Now don't you appreciate the fact that we don't

00:12:58 ◼   ► introduce ourselves or refer to ourselves by name

00:13:00 ◼   ► most of the time?

00:13:01 ◼   ► - I think at this point they've all stopped listening.

00:13:04 ◼   ► - Yeah, it's so true.

00:13:05 ◼   ► - That's what chapter markers are for, baby.

00:13:07 ◼   ► If you already knew our voices,

00:13:08 ◼   ► you already skipped this chapter.

00:13:09 ◼   ► - That's true, well, but then you missed out

00:13:11 ◼   ► on this delightful, beautiful train wreck.

00:13:13 ◼   ► - You missed out learning about atb.fm/hosts,

00:13:16 ◼   ► which is a terrible page that we need

00:13:17 ◼   ► to either update or delete.

00:13:18 ◼   ► - I feel like now we can't.

00:13:19 ◼   ► Like now we have to leave it.

00:13:20 ◼   ► - No, you have to stay there, we'll fix it.

00:13:22 ◼   ► We'll just get rid of the Twitter handles

00:13:23 ◼   ► and put it on our Mastodon handles and stuff.

00:13:24 ◼   ► We'll fix it, we'll work on it.

00:13:27 ◼   ► We are brought to you this week by you, the audience,

00:13:30 ◼   ► and specifically the ATP members.

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00:13:35 ◼   ► and members get an ad-free version of the show.

00:13:38 ◼   ► So if you become a member today,

00:13:40 ◼   ► and well, really any day, but we encourage you

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00:14:21 ◼   ► So that's ATP membership.

00:14:23 ◼   ► You also get a couple other small perks here and there

00:14:25 ◼   ► but those are the two really big core ones

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00:14:56 ◼   ► Thank you so much for considering

00:14:57 ◼   ► and now back to the show.

00:14:59 ◼   ► - Apple Vision Pro Labs developer kit

00:15:05 ◼   ► and compatibility evaluation signup are live

00:15:08 ◼   ► and you can ask to work with Apple as it says in the URL

00:15:12 ◼   ► in order to do any of these things.

00:15:15 ◼   ► So they are starting extremely soon.

00:15:18 ◼   ► I forget exactly when but I think in the next week or so,

00:15:21 ◼   ► at least the Cupertino ones are happening

00:15:23 ◼   ► and then there's going to be labs in London, Munich,

00:15:26 ◼   ► Shanghai, Singapore and Tokyo.

00:15:28 ◼   ► That is where you can go in and use a Vision Pro

00:15:31 ◼   ► presumably with your app and tweak it

00:15:33 ◼   ► and work on it and so on.

00:15:35 ◼   ► They can take your app and do a compatibility evaluation.

00:15:38 ◼   ► So they run it to kind of like app review

00:15:40 ◼   ► kind of sort of style.

00:15:42 ◼   ► I mean, none of the three of us have any issues

00:15:43 ◼   ► with app reviews, that's awesome.

00:15:45 ◼   ► And they'll tell you, hey, it's a pile of garbage

00:15:47 ◼   ► or hey, there's a video player here that you need to look at

00:15:50 ◼   ► or whatever the case may be

00:15:51 ◼   ► or maybe they'll talk about copyright.

00:15:53 ◼   ► And then finally, you can apply to get

00:15:55 ◼   ► a Vision Pro developer kit,

00:15:57 ◼   ► which we should talk a little bit about the details

00:15:59 ◼   ► with regard to that as well here in a moment.

00:16:01 ◼   ► But all of those things you can do right now.

00:16:04 ◼   ► And I think that signups for the labs at least,

00:16:07 ◼   ► I believe those close very, very soon,

00:16:09 ◼   ► like in the next couple of days, if I'm not mistaken.

00:16:12 ◼   ► I have not yet signed up for any of this in no small part

00:16:15 ◼   ► because I have not done anything Vision Pro related.

00:16:17 ◼   ► Like I have, I would like to do some of this.

00:16:19 ◼   ► I am enthusiastic about the idea of trying the Vision Pro,

00:16:23 ◼   ► but I have done literally nothing.

00:16:26 ◼   ► And so I don't know if I'm a particularly great candidate

00:16:29 ◼   ► for any of these things.

00:16:30 ◼   ► Perhaps if I can ever get my head above sand

00:16:32 ◼   ► or above water or whatever with regard to call sheet,

00:16:34 ◼   ► then maybe I'll apply for one if it's not too late.

00:16:37 ◼   ► But Marco, I assume you have applied for all the things?

00:16:40 ◼   ► - I have actually applied only for the dev kit,

00:16:42 ◼   ► only because my actual app for Vision Pro

00:16:46 ◼   ► is nowhere near ready because it is only my,

00:16:49 ◼   ► like the rewrite of my app, which at this point is,

00:16:52 ◼   ► I would describe it as maybe 20% or 30%, you know, done.

00:16:56 ◼   ► It's really not, you know, anywhere close to shipping.

00:16:59 ◼   ► And so I applied for the dev kit kind of optimistically.

00:17:03 ◼   ► And I even, you know, they have you explain

00:17:06 ◼   ► in like 200 words or so, like, you know,

00:17:08 ◼   ► why you should, why you want one

00:17:10 ◼   ► and why you should have one basically.

00:17:11 ◼   ► It's like a job application.

00:17:13 ◼   ► And I even wrote in there, I'm like, look,

00:17:15 ◼   ► this is not a visually compelling app.

00:17:18 ◼   ► This is a three column list view,

00:17:20 ◼   ► showing lists of podcast episodes.

00:17:22 ◼   ► And it's not like a super immersive experience.

00:17:24 ◼   ► So if that's what you're looking for,

00:17:25 ◼   ► no problem, no hard feelings, I understand.

00:17:28 ◼   ► However, what I'm looking for is basically,

00:17:30 ◼   ► I wanna know how the audio system works,

00:17:32 ◼   ► how background audio works.

00:17:33 ◼   ► I wanna know how my audio engine,

00:17:35 ◼   ► which is pretty low level, interacts with the hardware.

00:17:38 ◼   ► I wanna be able to play with different audio configurations

00:17:42 ◼   ► and options and things like that.

00:17:43 ◼   ► So that's why I wanna access to the hardware.

00:17:46 ◼   ► But it's not a super visually, you know,

00:17:49 ◼   ► massive immersion kind of app.

00:17:51 ◼   ► So I don't think I'm going to get one in all likelihood.

00:17:53 ◼   ► And frankly, I probably shouldn't get one

00:17:56 ◼   ► for all those reasons.

00:17:57 ◼   ► Like if they have a fairly limited number of them,

00:18:00 ◼   ► which just sounds like it's gonna be the case,

00:18:02 ◼   ► and if they wanna only give it to like really high impact

00:18:05 ◼   ► visual kind of apps, there is no way I should have one.

00:18:09 ◼   ► But if they happen to want to give one to a podcast player

00:18:14 ◼   ► that is showing a list of episodes

00:18:15 ◼   ► and you know, playback controls,

00:18:16 ◼   ► I would love to actually use one.

00:18:19 ◼   ► 'Cause I think it's gonna be very difficult

00:18:22 ◼   ► to develop good apps for this platform

00:18:25 ◼   ► without actually having one.

00:18:26 ◼   ► Because we don't know how any of the controls

00:18:31 ◼   ► or the mechanisms or the conventions actually feel

00:18:36 ◼   ► and work and look and practice.

00:18:37 ◼   ► Like right now, I'm doing a whole bunch

00:18:39 ◼   ► of iPhone design work.

00:18:41 ◼   ► I'm doing, you know, 'cause I'm in the middle

00:18:43 ◼   ► of this rewrite, plus I'm working on my iOS 17 widgets

00:18:45 ◼   ► for my old code base that will,

00:18:47 ◼   ► I'm hopefully gonna have iOS 17 widgets ready shortly.

00:18:50 ◼   ► And so I'm doing a lot of design work

00:18:51 ◼   ► where like I'm laying out interfaces on the iPhone app.

00:18:55 ◼   ► And yes, I have the simulator,

00:18:57 ◼   ► but on my desk right now are three iPhones

00:19:00 ◼   ► because of various sizes and ages and things.

00:19:03 ◼   ► Because you have to feel it, you have to try it.

00:19:06 ◼   ► It's funny, I actually, I happen to have dug up

00:19:10 ◼   ► what I believe is my first ever podcast appearance.

00:19:15 ◼   ► Because they had Chuck Joyner on Mac Power Users

00:19:20 ◼   ► this past week.

00:19:21 ◼   ► And I remembered, I'm pretty sure his show

00:19:23 ◼   ► that I did in April of 2010, I think,

00:19:27 ◼   ► this was between the iPad's announcement and its release.

00:19:32 ◼   ► Which is kind of funny, like listening back,

00:19:33 ◼   ► I mean, first of all, it is not,

00:19:36 ◼   ► I was not good on this show.

00:19:39 ◼   ► I was, first of all, I was like calling in from a phone.

00:19:42 ◼   ► I sound terrible and I spoke extremely slowly

00:19:46 ◼   ► for some reason.

00:19:47 ◼   ► I don't know what has changed,

00:19:50 ◼   ► maybe I've just had a lot of coffee

00:19:51 ◼   ► in the intervening 13 years.

00:19:54 ◼   ► - New York working its magic.

00:19:55 ◼   ► - Yeah, right, I guess.

00:19:57 ◼   ► But anyway, I re-listened to this.

00:20:00 ◼   ► And it was interesting, I was listening back,

00:20:02 ◼   ► 'cause this was the time period where we were,

00:20:04 ◼   ► we spent a big part of the show kind of talking

00:20:06 ◼   ► about our expectations of what the iPad would be like.

00:20:08 ◼   ► Because again, it was announced,

00:20:10 ◼   ► but it wasn't available yet.

00:20:11 ◼   ► And I was able to develop for it,

00:20:13 ◼   ► like they released the SDK before we all had hardware.

00:20:16 ◼   ► And by the way, and please don't,

00:20:17 ◼   ► if you listen to this, please know,

00:20:19 ◼   ► I'm not proud of, it's very dated in a number of ways.

00:20:23 ◼   ► I made a couple of assumptions about a male audience

00:20:26 ◼   ► a few times that I feel really bad about now.

00:20:28 ◼   ► Like, please be kind.

00:20:30 ◼   ► But anyway, it was a similar time period

00:20:33 ◼   ► where we had this hardware announcement

00:20:34 ◼   ► and they showed off the hardware, but nobody had it yet.

00:20:37 ◼   ► And we were all developing apps for it

00:20:39 ◼   ► without having access to the hardware yet.

00:20:41 ◼   ► The problem was that I was saying like,

00:20:43 ◼   ► we don't know how this is going to feel in our hands.

00:20:46 ◼   ► We don't know how certain things will work yet.

00:20:48 ◼   ► And what I ended up shipping for Instapaper,

00:20:51 ◼   ► which was the app I was using at the time,

00:20:52 ◼   ► which is what the interview was mostly about,

00:20:53 ◼   ► what I ended up shipping for Instapaper's first iPad app

00:20:57 ◼   ► was just a stretched out iPhone app.

00:20:59 ◼   ► And it sucked, it was terrible.

00:21:02 ◼   ► And I replaced it as quickly as possible

00:21:04 ◼   ► with a total redesign.

00:21:06 ◼   ► And I think, I fear that what's gonna happen

00:21:09 ◼   ► with Vision Pro is we're all gonna make these

00:21:12 ◼   ► versions of our apps in the simulator

00:21:13 ◼   ► between now and whenever we can get our hands

00:21:15 ◼   ► on a real one, probably early next year, at the best case.

00:21:19 ◼   ► And then we're gonna actually get it and realize,

00:21:21 ◼   ► oh, this is totally wrong.

00:21:23 ◼   ► 'Cause you can tell, like, when I'm doing the iPhone work,

00:21:26 ◼   ► I can do this great design in the simulator

00:21:29 ◼   ► and the first time I run it on a device,

00:21:30 ◼   ► I can instantly tell, oh, that's wrong.

00:21:32 ◼   ► That's too small or that's too big or that doesn't work

00:21:33 ◼   ► or that doesn't look right or it doesn't feel right.

00:21:36 ◼   ► You really need to use the hardware

00:21:38 ◼   ► to really know how something feels.

00:21:40 ◼   ► And it doesn't need to be something super flashy

00:21:42 ◼   ► or involved or innovative to hit those walls

00:21:46 ◼   ► and to realize you've made a design mistake.

00:21:48 ◼   ► It can be a very simple table view app

00:21:51 ◼   ► and you can instantly know, oh, this doesn't work

00:21:53 ◼   ► right on the hardware.

00:21:55 ◼   ► And with this hardware in particular,

00:21:56 ◼   ► this is even more different than when we were going

00:22:00 ◼   ► from iPhone to iPad.

00:22:02 ◼   ► Because at least iPhone to iPad, at least first of all,

00:22:04 ◼   ► the interface looked and worked very similarly to the iPhone

00:22:08 ◼   ► and it was still a touch screen.

00:22:10 ◼   ► So it was far more similar than what we have now

00:22:15 ◼   ► going from literally anything to the Vision Pro,

00:22:18 ◼   ► which is controlled totally differently,

00:22:20 ◼   ► looks totally different, works totally different,

00:22:22 ◼   ► the app environment, like everything about it

00:22:24 ◼   ► is so different down to the fundamentals

00:22:27 ◼   ► of how you interact with it.

00:22:29 ◼   ► So I suspect this is gonna be a platform

00:22:32 ◼   ► where you really need the hardware to really design an app

00:22:35 ◼   ► that's worth using it all.

00:22:37 ◼   ► So that's why I applied to the developer kit.

00:22:40 ◼   ► And I kind of feel bad that even if I get one,

00:22:43 ◼   ► I'm gonna have very little to show in my app

00:22:46 ◼   ► for maybe six months.

00:22:48 ◼   ► Like that's, I think six months from now,

00:22:50 ◼   ► I could probably have a working version

00:22:52 ◼   ► with the new code base that actually has like

00:22:54 ◼   ► a useful amount of features that could be released

00:22:57 ◼   ► on its own.

00:22:58 ◼   ► But between now and then, I'm not gonna have much

00:23:00 ◼   ► to show for it.

00:23:01 ◼   ► So that's why I didn't even apply for the labs yet

00:23:03 ◼   ► 'cause I have nothing to run yet.

00:23:04 ◼   ► I didn't apply for the please run my app

00:23:07 ◼   ► and tell me if it's broken test flight thing.

00:23:09 ◼   ► Because again, I'm not even to that point yet.

00:23:12 ◼   ► So anyway, I applied.

00:23:14 ◼   ► And then assuming they maybe possibly ever say yes

00:23:17 ◼   ► in the next three months, that'll give me time

00:23:20 ◼   ► to actually figure out how I'm gonna comply

00:23:21 ◼   ► with the security requirements.

00:23:23 ◼   ► - Indeed, okay, before we talk about that,

00:23:25 ◼   ► Jon, did you apply for any of these things?

00:23:27 ◼   ► I presume not?

00:23:28 ◼   ► - No, I don't have any Vision Pro apps.

00:23:31 ◼   ► They're working on none of my apps.

00:23:32 ◼   ► It's not relevant to my apps.

00:23:33 ◼   ► I don't have any ideas for Vision Pro apps.

00:23:35 ◼   ► I'm not gonna get one.

00:23:36 ◼   ► - Fair enough.

00:23:37 ◼   ► All right, so a friend of the show, James Thompson,

00:23:40 ◼   ► was tootin' on Mastodon when this all happened.

00:23:43 ◼   ► James said, "You know, needless to say,

00:23:45 ◼   ► "I applied to get the Vision Pro developer kit for PCALC

00:23:47 ◼   ► "and probably more interesting, DICE by PCALC,"

00:23:49 ◼   ► which is a DICE simulator you can use

00:23:52 ◼   ► for, say, role-playing games or whatever.

00:23:54 ◼   ► Then James continues, "The security requirements

00:23:55 ◼   ► "for keeping the developer kit safe read more

00:23:57 ◼   ► "like a PlayStation developer kit,

00:23:59 ◼   ► "and unlike anything else I've seen

00:24:00 ◼   ► "with pre-release Apple hardware,

00:24:02 ◼   ► "for example, the Apple Silicon DTK."

00:24:04 ◼   ► So this is a little bit long,

00:24:06 ◼   ► but I think it's worth reading.

00:24:07 ◼   ► This is now Apple's words as a part of the developer kit,

00:24:11 ◼   ► like signup or whatever.

00:24:13 ◼   ► Apple says, "You agree that all access to, usage of,

00:24:17 ◼   ► "and storage use of the developer kit

00:24:19 ◼   ► "will be in private, secure workspace accessible

00:24:21 ◼   ► "only by you and your authorized developers,

00:24:24 ◼   ► "for example, fully enclosed with solid doors,

00:24:26 ◼   ► "floors, walls, and ceiling, and locks that can be engaged

00:24:29 ◼   ► "when the developer kit is in use.

00:24:31 ◼   ► "You must ensure that unauthorized persons,

00:24:32 ◼   ► "including any family, friends, roommates,

00:24:34 ◼   ► "or household employees,"

00:24:36 ◼   ► household employees, my word,

00:24:37 ◼   ► "do not access, view, handle, or use the DK,"

00:24:40 ◼   ► the developer kit.

00:24:41 ◼   ► - Oh, my butler can't use it.

00:24:43 ◼   ► - Right, exactly.

00:24:43 ◼   ► Very, very, very Silicon Valley, am I right?

00:24:45 ◼   ► "When in use, the DK should be in your positive control

00:24:48 ◼   ► "on your person or within your direct line of sight

00:24:50 ◼   ► "at all times.

00:24:51 ◼   ► "You must ensure that the DK is passcode protected.

00:24:54 ◼   ► "Never leave the DK unattended when not in use.

00:24:56 ◼   ► "Turn off the DK and store it in its locked Pelican case

00:25:00 ◼   ► "in a locked space that only you have access to,

00:25:03 ◼   ► "for example, a locked room or closet,

00:25:05 ◼   ► "a safe or a locked drawer.

00:25:07 ◼   ► "The DK may not be moved from or taken away from

00:25:10 ◼   ► "its shipped to address by you or your authorized developers

00:25:13 ◼   ► "without Apple's prior written consent.

00:25:15 ◼   ► "If you will be away from your workspace

00:25:17 ◼   ► "for more than 10 days,

00:25:18 ◼   ► "consult with your Apple point of contact

00:25:20 ◼   ► "about how to keep the DK safe while you are away.

00:25:22 ◼   ► "You agree to restrict access to the DK

00:25:24 ◼   ► "to you and your authorized developers

00:25:26 ◼   ► "and take all reasonable precautions

00:25:27 ◼   ► "to safeguard the DK from loss or theft."

00:25:31 ◼   ► I mean, if I get one, my in-home office

00:25:35 ◼   ► does not have a lock that has a key.

00:25:37 ◼   ► - Yeah, you need a new house.

00:25:39 ◼   ► - And it has windows.

00:25:40 ◼   ► Like, does that mean I can't use it?

00:25:41 ◼   ► Like, what the lock?

00:25:42 ◼   ► - You just have to have solid doors, floors, walls,

00:25:44 ◼   ► and ceiling and locks that keep me engaged

00:25:46 ◼   ► when it's not in use.

00:25:47 ◼   ► I'm gonna go out and let him say--

00:25:48 ◼   ► - No, but no one else is allowed to view it.

00:25:50 ◼   ► So you can only use it when you have locked yourself

00:25:53 ◼   ► in the room.

00:25:53 ◼   ► - Right, right, right.

00:25:54 ◼   ► - I think pretty much zero people

00:25:57 ◼   ► are going to fully comply with this

00:25:58 ◼   ► 'cause it's basically impossible human nature-wise

00:26:01 ◼   ► to fully comply with this,

00:26:02 ◼   ► even if you have the best of intentions

00:26:04 ◼   ► because it demands so much of you

00:26:06 ◼   ► that's out of the ordinary.

00:26:07 ◼   ► And the normal human mind will rebel against the absurdity

00:26:11 ◼   ► of these requirements for a product

00:26:12 ◼   ► that has already been announced and tried by the press,

00:26:16 ◼   ► although not us.

00:26:17 ◼   ► It's not like, you know, if before this was revealed,

00:26:20 ◼   ► I can understand something like this,

00:26:21 ◼   ► but it's just impossible to comply with this.

00:26:23 ◼   ► Like, unless you have a compliance officer there

00:26:26 ◼   ► who's checking all the time,

00:26:27 ◼   ► there's no way, even with the best of intentions,

00:26:29 ◼   ► you're gonna, like, it just requires too much.

00:26:32 ◼   ► So I'm not quite sure why.

00:26:33 ◼   ► Maybe this is just boilerplate they have

00:26:35 ◼   ► for when they, like, you know,

00:26:36 ◼   ► like Unity has been working on stuff for two years.

00:26:38 ◼   ► So before it was announced,

00:26:40 ◼   ► I can imagine agreements like this

00:26:42 ◼   ► being enforced in a big company.

00:26:44 ◼   ► But this developer kit thing

00:26:46 ◼   ► is open to anyone who wants to apply.

00:26:48 ◼   ► So individual developers who work from their home

00:26:51 ◼   ► are gonna get this device.

00:26:52 ◼   ► They can't comply with this.

00:26:54 ◼   ► Like, Unity might be able to

00:26:55 ◼   ► 'cause they're a big company

00:26:56 ◼   ► and they actually have compliance officers and stuff,

00:26:58 ◼   ► and there's millions of dollars online

00:26:59 ◼   ► if they screw up or whatever,

00:27:00 ◼   ► but individual developers won't.

00:27:02 ◼   ► I think it is interesting

00:27:03 ◼   ► that they're being so super cautious about it,

00:27:05 ◼   ► but I do wonder if this is, like, leftover language

00:27:07 ◼   ► from, like, the before times before WWDC.

00:27:10 ◼   ► - Yeah, well, 'cause this is the level of security

00:27:12 ◼   ► that you would have if they're, like,

00:27:15 ◼   ► you know, if they're showing off some new hardware soon

00:27:18 ◼   ► and they go to your company a couple weeks ahead of time,

00:27:21 ◼   ► and like, here, try this new iPad, make your app for it,

00:27:23 ◼   ► we'll show it in the keynote.

00:27:24 ◼   ► Like, this is that level of security,

00:27:26 ◼   ► although this is actually, when that has happened,

00:27:30 ◼   ► it's been even higher in the sense that usually

00:27:31 ◼   ► they put it in some, like, tremendous enclosure

00:27:34 ◼   ► so you can't even really see what the device looks like

00:27:36 ◼   ► outside of the screen.

00:27:37 ◼   ► - Yeah, or sometimes they'll have you come to them

00:27:40 ◼   ► to work on it in a place that they control.

00:27:42 ◼   ► But all those situations that you're describing

00:27:44 ◼   ► involve companies, and companies have people whose job it is

00:27:46 ◼   ► to, like, comply with these things

00:27:48 ◼   ► and not get the company sued

00:27:49 ◼   ► because companies have a lot of money

00:27:50 ◼   ► and there's contract, like, that all makes perfect sense.

00:27:53 ◼   ► But, hey, individual developer,

00:27:55 ◼   ► come throw your hat in the ring to sign up for this thing

00:27:58 ◼   ► and we'll send you a developer kit.

00:27:59 ◼   ► Boy, this is overkill for that.

00:28:01 ◼   ► - Yeah, but that being said,

00:28:03 ◼   ► first of all, I fully expect that only companies

00:28:07 ◼   ► that have those kind of resources

00:28:08 ◼   ► are likely to get developer kits.

00:28:11 ◼   ► I think everyone else is gonna be told, come to a lab.

00:28:13 ◼   ► - Maybe not you, but I think individuals will get it.

00:28:15 ◼   ► There's enough individuals with interesting apps

00:28:17 ◼   ► that Apple wants to have a developer kit,

00:28:19 ◼   ► and I think they're gonna send it to 'em.

00:28:21 ◼   ► I think there will be individuals

00:28:22 ◼   ► who work out of their home who are gonna get a DK.

00:28:24 ◼   ► - Yeah, I mean, I genuinely believe, I really, really do,

00:28:26 ◼   ► that Underscore will end up with one of these,

00:28:28 ◼   ► as an example.

00:28:29 ◼   ► - Oh, yeah, he should, actually.

00:28:30 ◼   ► - And he should.

00:28:31 ◼   ► So, I would be surprised if there aren't at least

00:28:34 ◼   ► a handful of #blessed individuals that get them.

00:28:37 ◼   ► But the thing that struck me about this is,

00:28:40 ◼   ► again, I haven't even applied,

00:28:41 ◼   ► and I think I tend to be a straight shooter,

00:28:44 ◼   ► I tend to try not to break the rules,

00:28:46 ◼   ► and so I would probably do a best effort

00:28:48 ◼   ► on following these rules.

00:28:49 ◼   ► But leaving all of this aside,

00:28:51 ◼   ► like all things being equal,

00:28:54 ◼   ► if I got one of these, of course I'd be like,

00:28:56 ◼   ► "Aaron, you have to try this out.

00:28:57 ◼   ► "Why would she not?"

00:28:58 ◼   ► And it occurred to me, as I was thinking about this--

00:29:00 ◼   ► - Well, now you're never gonna get one.

00:29:01 ◼   ► - Oh, no, totally, right?

00:29:02 ◼   ► - No, you can make her an authorized developer.

00:29:04 ◼   ► - You already said on a podcast

00:29:06 ◼   ► where you identified yourself by name,

00:29:08 ◼   ► so they know which voice is which,

00:29:09 ◼   ► that you are not going to comply with this agreement,

00:29:12 ◼   ► so forget it, Casey, you're not getting one.

00:29:13 ◼   ► - Yeah, it's all your fault, Jon.

00:29:14 ◼   ► I was okay when they thought it was you.

00:29:16 ◼   ► But, no, anyways, it occurred to me

00:29:18 ◼   ► that there is every possibility for this thing to phone home.

00:29:23 ◼   ► And it's aware, presumably,

00:29:27 ◼   ► I don't know if it's like a retina scan

00:29:29 ◼   ► or whatever the scan was,

00:29:30 ◼   ► but to identify who's using it,

00:29:32 ◼   ► it hypothetically will know if somebody else

00:29:35 ◼   ► was put this thing on and has tried it.

00:29:38 ◼   ► And is it gonna phone home to Apple if you do that?

00:29:40 ◼   ► Oh, I was talking to my friend Brad about this,

00:29:42 ◼   ► and Brad had pointed out,

00:29:43 ◼   ► "Oh, if somebody walks up to you,

00:29:45 ◼   ► "is it gonna be like,

00:29:46 ◼   ► "'Uh-oh, somebody was in the presence of this thing,'

00:29:49 ◼   ► "you know what I mean?"

00:29:49 ◼   ► Like, I'm not sure--

00:29:50 ◼   ► - She's gonna self-destroy it on your face.

00:29:52 ◼   ► - Right?

00:29:53 ◼   ► Like, I don't think Apple is quite that evil,

00:29:56 ◼   ► vindictive, whatever-- - No, no, they're not.

00:29:58 ◼   ► - But it is hypothetically possible,

00:30:00 ◼   ► and that kinda creeps me out.

00:30:02 ◼   ► - I mean, look, and I'm sure in their terms,

00:30:05 ◼   ► I'm sure it says something like

00:30:06 ◼   ► they can do whatever they want,

00:30:07 ◼   ► but no, I wouldn't be worried about that.

00:30:09 ◼   ► I'd be worried about disappointing Dad.

00:30:12 ◼   ► That's kinda what I'd be worried about here.

00:30:15 ◼   ► 'Cause in many ways, it's similar to,

00:30:18 ◼   ► there's been a couple of times in the past

00:30:20 ◼   ► where I've been trusted with pre-release review hardware.

00:30:23 ◼   ► That wasn't at all the same thing as this.

00:30:25 ◼   ► I mean, that was like,

00:30:27 ◼   ► hey, we have this MacBook Pro

00:30:28 ◼   ► that we're releasing in a week.

00:30:30 ◼   ► We've already announced it.

00:30:31 ◼   ► Here, you can take one to review for a week.

00:30:35 ◼   ► And that's very different from,

00:30:37 ◼   ► this is a brand new platform

00:30:38 ◼   ► that is unlike everything we've ever shipped before,

00:30:40 ◼   ► and it isn't shipping to the public

00:30:41 ◼   ► for seven or eight months, probably.

00:30:43 ◼   ► That's a very different situation, obviously.

00:30:45 ◼   ► So I would expect this to have a lot of security.

00:30:47 ◼   ► And the reality is,

00:30:48 ◼   ► what I should probably do is go to a lab,

00:30:50 ◼   ► and I'm sure I would have not that much trouble

00:30:52 ◼   ► getting a slot in a lab.

00:30:54 ◼   ► The problem is, I don't wanna fly all over California.

00:30:56 ◼   ► (laughs)

00:30:57 ◼   ► To fly all over California for this is,

00:30:59 ◼   ► that's a lot.

00:31:01 ◼   ► And so, look, I'll do it if I have to,

00:31:03 ◼   ► but certainly not yet.

00:31:04 ◼   ► I mean, I would wait until closer to release time

00:31:07 ◼   ► before I did that,

00:31:08 ◼   ► but that's a much larger thing for me.

00:31:13 ◼   ► If it happened in New York, I'd be there.

00:31:15 ◼   ► No question I'd be there.

00:31:17 ◼   ► - Right, that's the thing.

00:31:18 ◼   ► I was very surprised that it was,

00:31:20 ◼   ► left coast or get the hell out.

00:31:22 ◼   ► I really would have expected them to do something

00:31:25 ◼   ► in New York somewhere.

00:31:26 ◼   ► And I mean, I heard through the grapevine

00:31:28 ◼   ► that there is an Apple establishment in New York,

00:31:30 ◼   ► like where presumably this sort of thing could happen.

00:31:32 ◼   ► So I don't know.

00:31:34 ◼   ► I was very, very surprised that,

00:31:37 ◼   ► they're telling everyone to go to California or pound sand.

00:31:39 ◼   ► - I thought they had one of them,

00:31:41 ◼   ► maybe just the compatibility labs

00:31:43 ◼   ► in multiple cities across the world.

00:31:45 ◼   ► - There are, yeah.

00:31:45 ◼   ► But the only one in the US is in California.

00:31:49 ◼   ► - Oh, all right.

00:31:50 ◼   ► - London, Munich, Shanghai, Singapore, and Tokyo.

00:31:53 ◼   ► - There you go.

00:31:54 ◼   ► - Anyway, but yeah, this is quite amusing to me.

00:31:57 ◼   ► And I mean, in the defense of Apple,

00:31:59 ◼   ► I understand what they're going for here.

00:32:01 ◼   ► And certainly I think if I were in their shoes,

00:32:04 ◼   ► my approach would be,

00:32:05 ◼   ► let's put the fear of God into all these people

00:32:08 ◼   ► and make them think that they have to be super strict

00:32:10 ◼   ► with it, even if they really didn't care

00:32:12 ◼   ► and all they cared about was not having a video demo

00:32:15 ◼   ► or anything like that.

00:32:17 ◼   ► Don't go to YouTube, don't go to the Verge,

00:32:18 ◼   ► or whoever, who was it?

00:32:19 ◼   ► - Yeah, I mean, I think this is like a butt covering for,

00:32:22 ◼   ► what Apple doesn't want is someone posting a picture

00:32:25 ◼   ► of here's what the developer kit looks like, right?

00:32:27 ◼   ► 'Cause that'll be a whole thing.

00:32:28 ◼   ► - Yeah, or they don't want people tearing it down

00:32:29 ◼   ► and doing the iFixit.

00:32:31 ◼   ► - And they don't want you to say,

00:32:32 ◼   ► well, I complied with your agreement,

00:32:34 ◼   ► but someone sneakily took a picture,

00:32:35 ◼   ► and I was like, look, if you comply with our agreement,

00:32:37 ◼   ► there'd be no way for someone to sneakily take a picture

00:32:39 ◼   ► of it because our agreement is so airtight,

00:32:41 ◼   ► so no matter what happens, it's your fault,

00:32:43 ◼   ► which is what lawyers do.

00:32:45 ◼   ► - Yeah, exactly, indeed.

00:32:46 ◼   ► The other thing too is like,

00:32:47 ◼   ► 'cause I'm giving all these statements assuming

00:32:50 ◼   ► that it will be fairly hard to get developer access to this,

00:32:54 ◼   ► that's assuming there's a whole bunch of people trying.

00:32:57 ◼   ► And that's probably a safe assumption in absolute terms,

00:33:00 ◼   ► but in relative terms, I think this platform,

00:33:03 ◼   ► I think Apple needs developers to be interested

00:33:06 ◼   ► in this platform a little harder

00:33:09 ◼   ► than they normally have to push.

00:33:10 ◼   ► With the iPhone, they don't really have to push at all.

00:33:12 ◼   ► We come to them.

00:33:14 ◼   ► With the other platforms,

00:33:16 ◼   ► they have to do a little bit of pushing

00:33:18 ◼   ► 'cause it's less compelling or less,

00:33:21 ◼   ► gotta have it for developers.

00:33:22 ◼   ► And I think Vision OS is gonna have,

00:33:26 ◼   ► as I mentioned before,

00:33:27 ◼   ► I think it's gonna have a pretty gradual start.

00:33:28 ◼   ► It's not gonna have a lot of unit sales to start.

00:33:31 ◼   ► It's not gonna be easy to get for a lot of people

00:33:33 ◼   ► for a while due to lots of things,

00:33:35 ◼   ► not least of which is the price of course,

00:33:36 ◼   ► but also the manufacturing and country availability

00:33:39 ◼   ► and stuff like that.

00:33:40 ◼   ► So it's gonna be a while before this platform

00:33:42 ◼   ► really ramps up with developer interest.

00:33:44 ◼   ► It might be the case that any of us

00:33:46 ◼   ► who are interested in making apps for it,

00:33:47 ◼   ► they might be like, "Yes, please, here!"

00:33:49 ◼   ► We don't know.

00:33:50 ◼   ► And yeah, I guess we'll find out.

00:33:51 ◼   ► It remains to be seen how competitive

00:33:54 ◼   ► these developer resources actually are.

00:33:57 ◼   ► I hope there's tons of people wanting to develop

00:33:58 ◼   ► for this platform because frankly,

00:33:59 ◼   ► I think it's pretty cool,

00:34:00 ◼   ► and I'm hoping to be a user of this platform,

00:34:02 ◼   ► and I'm wanting to have a healthy software ecosystem.

00:34:06 ◼   ► But I also, I've heard from a lot of people

00:34:08 ◼   ► who are kind of like in the wait and see camp,

00:34:10 ◼   ► and as I mentioned in my Vision Pro challenges segment

00:34:13 ◼   ► a few weeks back, I don't think a lot of big companies

00:34:17 ◼   ► are gonna jump on board quite yet.

00:34:19 ◼   ► So it's probably gonna be largely down to

00:34:21 ◼   ► independent enthusiasts and developers

00:34:25 ◼   ► like Underscore and possibly me,

00:34:28 ◼   ► and we'll see whatever Jon comes up with.

00:34:30 ◼   ► (laughing)

00:34:32 ◼   ► And hopefully in case you can port Call Sheet to it

00:34:34 ◼   ► and everything, but like, which actually I think

00:34:36 ◼   ► it'll be a pretty good use for it.

00:34:38 ◼   ► - Yeah, I do as well.

00:34:39 ◼   ► It's not lack of enthusiasm, it's just lack of time.

00:34:42 ◼   ► There's only one of me,

00:34:43 ◼   ► and I'm trying to get the damn thing out the door,

00:34:45 ◼   ► which we'll talk about here in a minute.

00:34:46 ◼   ► But yeah, I mean, I think Call Sheet does make sense for it,

00:34:49 ◼   ► but I can't, well, maybe I could,

00:34:52 ◼   ► but I am of the kind that I can't in good conscience

00:34:56 ◼   ► apply for a developer kit before I at least have

00:34:59 ◼   ► something to show for it.

00:35:01 ◼   ► Even if Apple doesn't necessarily care, I care.

00:35:04 ◼   ► I wanna have a little bit of my head around,

00:35:06 ◼   ► I wanna have my head a little bit around

00:35:08 ◼   ► what all this means, and I'm not there yet,

00:35:10 ◼   ► but hopefully I will be soon.

00:35:12 ◼   ► - Yeah, it doesn't really help that I have to rewrite

00:35:13 ◼   ► all my widgets first, and also they redesigned

00:35:15 ◼   ► all of watchOS, and like, all this other stuff

00:35:17 ◼   ► I have to get to first, really, for this fall.

00:35:20 ◼   ► But anyway, we'll get there.

00:35:22 ◼   ► - All right, and then a friend of the show,

00:35:24 ◼   ► Steve Troughton-Smith, also noted that

00:35:25 ◼   ► the Vision Pro loan period is until 90 days

00:35:28 ◼   ► after the launch of the retail product in the United States.

00:35:32 ◼   ► It would make sense for Apple to extend that period

00:35:35 ◼   ► in countries that have no retail launch of the Vision Pro,

00:35:37 ◼   ► unless it expects developers with in-progress apps

00:35:39 ◼   ► to either pause development or try to figure out

00:35:41 ◼   ► how to import one from the US.

00:35:43 ◼   ► That's a good point.

00:35:45 ◼   ► - Yeah, I mean, really, honestly, at this point,

00:35:47 ◼   ► as I was saying earlier, I think if you're gonna release

00:35:50 ◼   ► an app for this platform, you need to be trying it

00:35:52 ◼   ► on hardware first, and if you have no way

00:35:56 ◼   ► to get one of these afterwards, I don't see

00:36:00 ◼   ► how you continue to maintain an app on this platform.

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00:37:49 ◼   ► (upbeat music)

00:37:51 ◼   ► - I was on vacation last week, as was Jon,

00:37:56 ◼   ► which is why we recorded early.

00:37:58 ◼   ► And for the first time ever, we actually timed them

00:38:01 ◼   ► in parallel rather than serially.

00:38:03 ◼   ► So I was very proud of Jon and myself.

00:38:05 ◼   ► But nevertheless, that's neither here nor there.

00:38:06 ◼   ► So when we last left our hero, that hero would be me.

00:38:09 ◼   ► Hi, this is Casey.

00:38:11 ◼   ► When we last left our hero,

00:38:13 ◼   ► I had submitted Call Sheet to the App Store

00:38:16 ◼   ► with a build that I could release,

00:38:20 ◼   ► but I knew there were a few fixes left to be done.

00:38:22 ◼   ► The screenshots weren't exactly what I wanted.

00:38:24 ◼   ► I just wanted to get something across the finish line

00:38:26 ◼   ► before I left for vacation.

00:38:28 ◼   ► And I don't think I made it clear that that was the real

00:38:30 ◼   ► push when we spoke about this last a couple of weeks ago.

00:38:33 ◼   ► But I really wanted to get something through app review

00:38:36 ◼   ► before vacation.

00:38:37 ◼   ► So at least I could go on vacation,

00:38:39 ◼   ► not stressing about it, knowing, hey,

00:38:41 ◼   ► I've made it across the finish line at least once.

00:38:43 ◼   ► I have something I could release if I really wanted to.

00:38:46 ◼   ► Everything's kosher, everything's good.

00:38:49 ◼   ► As we discussed and as Jon got extremely fired up about,

00:38:52 ◼   ► which was very kind of both of you guys

00:38:55 ◼   ► to get my back like that.

00:38:57 ◼   ► But anyways, as we discussed last time,

00:39:00 ◼   ► which was two weeks ago, I got three different rejections.

00:39:03 ◼   ► The first was they want an unclickable URL

00:39:06 ◼   ► in the app description.

00:39:07 ◼   ► Fine, I did that.

00:39:08 ◼   ► Then I got a rejection for there being a video player

00:39:10 ◼   ► in the app that doesn't have a video player.

00:39:12 ◼   ► Fine, we clarified that.

00:39:14 ◼   ► Then I got a rejection for using Disney and Pixar copyrighted

00:39:20 ◼   ► material in the screenshots that I provided to Apple,

00:39:24 ◼   ► and I got rejected.

00:39:25 ◼   ► And so I wrote Apple because this

00:39:27 ◼   ► was happening as close to real time

00:39:30 ◼   ► as one could be with app review.

00:39:32 ◼   ► They would send something within a half an hour, 45 minutes,

00:39:34 ◼   ► I would send something back.

00:39:35 ◼   ► Within about an hour after that, they would send something back

00:39:37 ◼   ► and was going back and forth.

00:39:38 ◼   ► So in my ignorance, my naivete-- I don't know how

00:39:42 ◼   ► to pronounce that word, you know what I'm thinking of--

00:39:45 ◼   ► because I'm a dope, I thought, hey, let's just

00:39:47 ◼   ► get on the phone.

00:39:48 ◼   ► You call me, or I can call you, or whatever.

00:39:51 ◼   ► Let's just get on the phone.

00:39:51 ◼   ► Let's hammer this out in like five, 10 minutes.

00:39:53 ◼   ► We'll get it done.

00:39:54 ◼   ► It'll be fine.

00:39:55 ◼   ► And they said, sure, we'll call you back in three to five

00:39:57 ◼   ► business days.

00:39:58 ◼   ► Well, three to five business days

00:39:59 ◼   ► meant that when I was on the beach in Cape Charles,

00:40:02 ◼   ► I received a phone call from Apple.

00:40:04 ◼   ► So I ran to the dune, which was far away from all the people

00:40:10 ◼   ► and the music and all that.

00:40:11 ◼   ► You're supposed to keep off the dunes, Casey.

00:40:13 ◼   ► Yeah, well, I ran to the cutout through the dune

00:40:16 ◼   ► that you used to get to the beach.

00:40:18 ◼   ► And see, I forget with whom I'm speaking.

00:40:20 ◼   ► By the way, that was Marco, everybody,

00:40:22 ◼   ► that lives on the beach.

00:40:23 ◼   ► Hi, this is Casey.

00:40:24 ◼   ► I'm the chief interrupter.

00:40:26 ◼   ► I don't know if that's true.

00:40:27 ◼   ► It's definitely true.

00:40:28 ◼   ► But I spoke with a gentleman who only identified himself

00:40:31 ◼   ► as Richard, hand to God.

00:40:35 ◼   ► He was incredibly kind and incredibly patient

00:40:38 ◼   ► and incredibly chill.

00:40:39 ◼   ► Like, I cannot-- I probably shouldn't state this publicly

00:40:43 ◼   ► because it's mildly embarrassing.

00:40:44 ◼   ► But I cannot remember having a phone call that I was this--

00:40:50 ◼   ► maybe not scared, nervous, worried, just a ball of emotion

00:40:57 ◼   ► about.

00:40:58 ◼   ► Like, my heart was pumping a mile a minute.

00:41:00 ◼   ► In retrospect, I should have done a Apple Watch heartbeat

00:41:03 ◼   ► doodad.

00:41:04 ◼   ► You know what I'm thinking of?

00:41:04 ◼   ► Like, I actually read my heartbeat.

00:41:05 ◼   ► Did you get the alert that's like, hey,

00:41:07 ◼   ► your heart rate's a little off?

00:41:08 ◼   ► It looks like you're talking to App Review.

00:41:10 ◼   ► Right, exactly.

00:41:13 ◼   ► It's so true.

00:41:15 ◼   ► Do you want to begin a workout?

00:41:18 ◼   ► People are always doing those fake icons

00:41:20 ◼   ► for different kinds of workouts.

00:41:21 ◼   ► They should do a talking to App Review workout.

00:41:22 ◼   ► Someone work on that.

00:41:23 ◼   ► 100% true.

00:41:24 ◼   ► So anyways, I cannot tell you how--

00:41:30 ◼   ► I was not really moving.

00:41:32 ◼   ► And I was, like, mildly out of breath.

00:41:35 ◼   ► I was so nervous for this phone call.

00:41:37 ◼   ► And truth be told, Richard was so nice and so chill.

00:41:42 ◼   ► And based on his demeanor alone, I really

00:41:46 ◼   ► didn't need to be this worked up.

00:41:48 ◼   ► I had built this up in my head.

00:41:49 ◼   ► I'd been stressed about it through the beginning

00:41:50 ◼   ► of our vacation.

00:41:51 ◼   ► And I'm just freaking the F out, right?

00:41:54 ◼   ► And he gets me on the phone.

00:41:57 ◼   ► And one of the first things he said,

00:41:59 ◼   ► which kind of made me chuckle--

00:42:01 ◼   ► and I don't remember the words verbatim,

00:42:02 ◼   ► but as close as I can remember, he said,

00:42:05 ◼   ► I just want to let you know that I have to tell you this call

00:42:07 ◼   ► cannot be recorded.

00:42:08 ◼   ► And I do not consent to it being recorded,

00:42:11 ◼   ► which I thought was quite funny.

00:42:13 ◼   ► I mean, that's an interesting sentiment

00:42:15 ◼   ► to express, even to those that aren't the exact words,

00:42:17 ◼   ► because cannot be recorded?

00:42:18 ◼   ► Well, Richard, I'm not sure you're right about that.

00:42:21 ◼   ► I'm pretty sure it can be recorded.

00:42:23 ◼   ► And I register your lack of consent.

00:42:25 ◼   ► But I happen to live in a state that requires only one of us

00:42:28 ◼   ► to consent, and I consent.

00:42:30 ◼   ► So where are we now, Richard?

00:42:33 ◼   ► But that's not a good way to start that call.

00:42:35 ◼   ► So I'm glad you didn't do that.

00:42:36 ◼   ► No, it is not.

00:42:37 ◼   ► No, it is not.

00:42:37 ◼   ► It's like, this call could be recorded.

00:42:40 ◼   ► It probably shouldn't.

00:42:41 ◼   ► You probably should not record.

00:42:42 ◼   ► As far as you know, I'm not recording this, Richard.

00:42:45 ◼   ► Wink, wink, nudge, nudge.

00:42:46 ◼   ► If you recall, I did briefly look at the state laws--

00:42:49 ◼   ► the Commonwealth laws here in Virginia.

00:42:52 ◼   ► And as far as I can tell, it is a single-party consent state.

00:42:55 ◼   ► Now, California is not, if I remember correctly--

00:42:57 ◼   ► so I don't know how that would work out.

00:42:58 ◼   ► But it doesn't matter.

00:42:58 ◼   ► I mean, you can do whatever you want within the law.

00:43:00 ◼   ► But then also, Apple can just reject your app forever.

00:43:02 ◼   ► So think about that.

00:43:03 ◼   ► There's that, too.

00:43:04 ◼   ► I did not record it because I was standing on a beach.

00:43:07 ◼   ► So he gets me on the phone, and he basically says,

00:43:11 ◼   ► I've taken a look at your situation.

00:43:13 ◼   ► Your app is good to go.

00:43:15 ◼   ► Do you want me to release this one,

00:43:16 ◼   ► or do you want to send another bug fix through?

00:43:18 ◼   ► What do you want to do?

00:43:18 ◼   ► I want to pause you here, Casey, because one strain of feedback

00:43:22 ◼   ► we got after the show where I was complaining

00:43:25 ◼   ► about your rejection and how ridiculous it was

00:43:27 ◼   ► from people with experience with copyright

00:43:29 ◼   ► and dealing with IP law and ownership of stuff.

00:43:33 ◼   ► And many of those people were super-duper confident

00:43:36 ◼   ► that we were a bunch of dummies and just didn't understand

00:43:39 ◼   ► how copyright law worked.

00:43:41 ◼   ► And I think all of us were fairly deferential,

00:43:43 ◼   ► saying we're not lawyers.

00:43:44 ◼   ► We don't understand how copyright works.

00:43:45 ◼   ► But one thing we do know, and what

00:43:47 ◼   ► I tried to emphasize in that episode

00:43:48 ◼   ► is there are many apps like this on the App Store.

00:43:52 ◼   ► And there is no way that all of those apps, some of which

00:43:56 ◼   ► are made by individual developers like Casey,

00:43:58 ◼   ► have gotten all the clearances that these supposed

00:44:01 ◼   ► experts in copyright law think we need to get.

00:44:04 ◼   ► And I think Richard saying, oh, no, your app is fine,

00:44:08 ◼   ► pretty firmly puts the decision in our camp saying,

00:44:11 ◼   ► we were right.

00:44:12 ◼   ► You don't need contracts with every movie and television

00:44:15 ◼   ► production company in the world to produce an app like Casey's.

00:44:18 ◼   ► In fact, Apple said, it's fine.

00:44:21 ◼   ► Yep.

00:44:22 ◼   ► And we had-- I could look it up.

00:44:24 ◼   ► I have my phone next to me.

00:44:25 ◼   ► But I would say we had a five to 10-minute conversation.

00:44:28 ◼   ► But the TLDR, the short short of it was, it was fine.

00:44:31 ◼   ► And they were good to release as if I was good to release.

00:44:34 ◼   ► And so I genuinely have no idea if I got through because

00:44:41 ◼   ► of ATP, if I got through because John Siracusa was upset

00:44:45 ◼   ► and Marco Armond were upset.

00:44:46 ◼   ► I really don't think that's it.

00:44:47 ◼   ► I genuinely don't think it is.

00:44:49 ◼   ► I think the app is fine.

00:44:49 ◼   ► That's the whole point.

00:44:50 ◼   ► Exactly.

00:44:51 ◼   ► Because there are so many apps like this,

00:44:53 ◼   ► if just a single human who understands anything

00:44:55 ◼   ► about the App Store looked at it, they'd be like, oh, yeah,

00:44:56 ◼   ► there's tons of apps like this.

00:44:58 ◼   ► Does it do anything wrong?

00:44:59 ◼   ► No?

00:44:59 ◼   ► Then why are we stopping it?

00:45:01 ◼   ► Well, and also, I feel-- oh, by the way, this is Marco.

00:45:03 ◼   ► I feel like all that you need to know is it's now resolved.

00:45:07 ◼   ► That's it.

00:45:08 ◼   ► Don't dwell too much on why.

00:45:09 ◼   ► Just move on.

00:45:12 ◼   ► What is it?

00:45:12 ◼   ► Past performance has no whatever implications on future--

00:45:15 ◼   ► whatever they tell you about the stock stuff.

00:45:17 ◼   ► This doesn't mean that the app won't get rejected

00:45:18 ◼   ► for the exact same reason next time you submit it.

00:45:20 ◼   ► That's the magic of the App Store.

00:45:22 ◼   ► Yep, that is the magic of the App Store.

00:45:23 ◼   ► And I asked him a few things, not in a challenge-y way.

00:45:26 ◼   ► Like, hey, I think at one point I said, hey, for the future,

00:45:30 ◼   ► should I have handled this differently?

00:45:31 ◼   ► Did I do something wrong here?

00:45:33 ◼   ► And I was very deferential.

00:45:36 ◼   ► I was trying to say in so many words, look,

00:45:38 ◼   ► I don't want to waste your time.

00:45:40 ◼   ► Actually, I might have even said that to him.

00:45:41 ◼   ► I don't want to waste your time.

00:45:42 ◼   ► I think I know what you were trying to say,

00:45:44 ◼   ► but in a very nice way.

00:45:45 ◼   ► Exactly.

00:45:46 ◼   ► I was trying to say--

00:45:47 ◼   ► This whole process has been BS.

00:45:49 ◼   ► Yes.

00:45:50 ◼   ► I was trying to say this was a waste of everyone's time,

00:45:52 ◼   ► especially mine.

00:45:53 ◼   ► Yes, exactly.

00:45:54 ◼   ► What should I have done for the next time?

00:45:56 ◼   ► And again, he was very kind, very chill.

00:45:59 ◼   ► He said, no, no, no, you're good.

00:46:00 ◼   ► You didn't do anything wrong.

00:46:01 ◼   ► It's all fine.

00:46:02 ◼   ► And you should have said, and Richard,

00:46:03 ◼   ► what do you think you should do for next time?

00:46:06 ◼   ► Is there anything that you want to talk about that maybe you

00:46:09 ◼   ► could have done better?

00:46:11 ◼   ► Oh, that's very funny.

00:46:12 ◼   ► So anyway, so we were on the phone for five or 10 minutes.

00:46:14 ◼   ► And he said, OK, how do you want to proceed?

00:46:16 ◼   ► Do you want to release this one?

00:46:17 ◼   ► And it was all a pending developer release

00:46:19 ◼   ► once it gets through app review.

00:46:21 ◼   ► But I said, you know what?

00:46:21 ◼   ► No, I'd like to see this across the finish line.

00:46:23 ◼   ► Would you go ahead and send it through, please?

00:46:25 ◼   ► He said, absolutely, no problem.

00:46:26 ◼   ► I'll give you a call.

00:46:27 ◼   ► It'll probably be a couple hours.

00:46:28 ◼   ► We'll get it through.

00:46:29 ◼   ► This was somewhere to the order of 1 o'clock in the

00:46:32 ◼   ► afternoon Eastern time.

00:46:33 ◼   ► 6 o'clock Eastern time comes around.

00:46:36 ◼   ► The app still hasn't passed review.

00:46:38 ◼   ► I know that it's in review because you can see the state

00:46:41 ◼   ► of things using App Store Connect.

00:46:43 ◼   ► And there's an app for that, I think, also called

00:46:45 ◼   ► App Store Connect.

00:46:46 ◼   ► There's a website, blah, blah, blah.

00:46:47 ◼   ► And I see that it's been in review for a couple hours now.

00:46:51 ◼   ► I am pooping my pants because the very kind Richard had told

00:46:54 ◼   ► me unequivocally it's good to go.

00:46:57 ◼   ► But I thought I was good to go before I even sent it to

00:47:00 ◼   ► review, and it turns out I was wrong about that.

00:47:03 ◼   ► So what's the deal?

00:47:05 ◼   ► And right around the time I'm spiraling into the depths of

00:47:08 ◼   ► despair, I get a phone call from Apple.

00:47:11 ◼   ► And it's Richard.

00:47:12 ◼   ► And he says, hey, you're probably

00:47:14 ◼   ► wondering what's going on.

00:47:15 ◼   ► I said, yes.

00:47:16 ◼   ► Yes, I am.

00:47:18 ◼   ► There's something wrong on our end.

00:47:20 ◼   ► I'm not entirely sure what it is.

00:47:22 ◼   ► But we're working on it.

00:47:23 ◼   ► And we'll get it through, I promise.

00:47:25 ◼   ► OK.

00:47:26 ◼   ► Are you sure?

00:47:27 ◼   ► Yep, yep, yep.

00:47:27 ◼   ► I'm totally sure.

00:47:29 ◼   ► Would you like me to give you a call when it's through?

00:47:32 ◼   ► Yes, please.

00:47:33 ◼   ► Because I'm really worried.

00:47:35 ◼   ► He said, no worries.

00:47:36 ◼   ► I will give you a call.

00:47:37 ◼   ► And then it was actually, of course, it was like 10 minutes

00:47:39 ◼   ► after that that it all went through.

00:47:40 ◼   ► He gave me another call.

00:47:41 ◼   ► All was good.

00:47:43 ◼   ► So sitting in the App Store right now, pending developer

00:47:47 ◼   ► release, is the very first release of Call Sheet.

00:47:51 ◼   ► All right.

00:47:52 ◼   ► Which I'm extremely excited for and I'm

00:47:54 ◼   ► extremely thankful for.

00:47:55 ◼   ► And actually, before I talk release plans,

00:47:57 ◼   ► I should back up a half step.

00:47:57 ◼   ► I'm sorry.

00:47:58 ◼   ► I should have reordered this in the show notes.

00:48:00 ◼   ► We got a lot of feedback from lawyers and people

00:48:04 ◼   ► with-- amateur lawyers saying, as John had mentioned a moment

00:48:08 ◼   ► ago, oh, it's absolutely copyright.

00:48:10 ◼   ► Apple cannot accept anything like that.

00:48:12 ◼   ► You're absolutely 100% going to have

00:48:14 ◼   ► to use stable diffusion to make fake poster art.

00:48:17 ◼   ► I actually had somebody reach out to me.

00:48:19 ◼   ► I wish I had their name in front of me.

00:48:20 ◼   ► But they said, hey, I'm a producer on such and such

00:48:22 ◼   ► and I am giving you permission to use this thing that I

00:48:24 ◼   ► have the rights to, which is very kind.

00:48:26 ◼   ► I really appreciate that.

00:48:27 ◼   ► It's hard to get--

00:48:27 ◼   ► Only 700,000 more people you need to get agreements from.

00:48:30 ◼   ► Right, exactly.

00:48:31 ◼   ► No, but I don't want to besmirch this fellow.

00:48:33 ◼   ► It was very kind of him to say that, genuinely.

00:48:35 ◼   ► But anyways, a lot of people said, of course,

00:48:38 ◼   ► this is never going to work.

00:48:39 ◼   ► And a lot of other people said, oh, I've been through this.

00:48:44 ◼   ► Here's what you need to do.

00:48:45 ◼   ► And so the most concise example of this,

00:48:47 ◼   ► and I think most easy to understand,

00:48:49 ◼   ► was Ibrahim Thameem, who wrote, I just

00:48:52 ◼   ► wanted to suggest something that might help with the App Store

00:48:54 ◼   ► rejection you talked about in the last episode of ATP.

00:48:56 ◼   ► I spent a lot of time with the same exact issue with my app

00:48:59 ◼   ► that used the Movie Database API.

00:49:02 ◼   ► What finally got them to accept the app

00:49:03 ◼   ► was to include a note below in the review information section.

00:49:08 ◼   ► It's weird, but this seems to be what they're looking for.

00:49:10 ◼   ► Since then, I've been able to get multiple similar apps

00:49:13 ◼   ► approved by providing this exact note.

00:49:15 ◼   ► The note is as follows.

00:49:16 ◼   ► As mentioned extensively in the app,

00:49:17 ◼   ► all imagery and metadata used in this app

00:49:19 ◼   ► is from the MovieDB.org API.

00:49:21 ◼   ► Therefore, any information regarding

00:49:23 ◼   ► permission to use the images or metadata, please refer to

00:49:27 ◼   ► and then hit the Movie Database Terms of Use URL, which

00:49:31 ◼   ► basically says, I am not a lawyer.

00:49:33 ◼   ► Look, everything that's been uploaded to us,

00:49:36 ◼   ► as part of uploading it to us, we

00:49:38 ◼   ► are asking those who are uploading it,

00:49:41 ◼   ► do you have the rights to this?

00:49:43 ◼   ► And they have attested yes.

00:49:44 ◼   ► So if they have the rights to it,

00:49:46 ◼   ► now we have the rights to it because they're

00:49:48 ◼   ► granting us rights, and now we're granting you rights.

00:49:50 ◼   ► So I think it's kind of like Spider-Man pointing

00:49:52 ◼   ► at himself sort of situation.

00:49:54 ◼   ► I don't think that's how it works.

00:49:56 ◼   ► I like the fact that Ibrahim put the little F-you

00:49:58 ◼   ► at the beginning, which is like, as mentioned extensively

00:50:01 ◼   ► in the app, which you may or may not have actually looked at.

00:50:06 ◼   ► I mean, it's kind of like uploading a web browser

00:50:08 ◼   ► and saying, just so you know, every web page this web

00:50:11 ◼   ► browser loads is on the web, and that content is not

00:50:14 ◼   ► part of our application.

00:50:15 ◼   ► And yet Apple will still say, I don't know.

00:50:17 ◼   ► I could browse porn, rejected.

00:50:20 ◼   ► I mean, there's lots of sort of superstition about do this

00:50:24 ◼   ► and they got my thing through.

00:50:25 ◼   ► But the problem is, it's such a random number generator,

00:50:28 ◼   ► like App Review.

00:50:30 ◼   ► Did I get through because of something that I did?

00:50:32 ◼   ► Or did it get through just because I was going

00:50:34 ◼   ► to get through no matter what at that point?

00:50:35 ◼   ► Like Richard said, Casey didn't need

00:50:37 ◼   ► to change anything about his app.

00:50:38 ◼   ► He didn't need to get agreements with every movie studio.

00:50:40 ◼   ► He didn't need to do anything.

00:50:41 ◼   ► His app as is was just plain fine,

00:50:44 ◼   ► which is what we all thought.

00:50:46 ◼   ► Because again, there are apps that are very similar

00:50:48 ◼   ► that I've been on the App Store for years and years.

00:50:50 ◼   ► And why wouldn't Casey's be fine?

00:50:52 ◼   ► It's all about, it's a bunch of humans.

00:50:55 ◼   ► And they make mistakes or they're

00:50:57 ◼   ► afraid to step over a possible line or whatever else.

00:51:01 ◼   ► And so as long as this system is human based,

00:51:05 ◼   ► it's going to have human problems.

00:51:06 ◼   ► It's going to be inconsistent.

00:51:08 ◼   ► It's going to be, they're going to mess up sometimes.

00:51:09 ◼   ► You're going to get crappy reviewers sometimes.

00:51:12 ◼   ► And if the system wasn't human based,

00:51:14 ◼   ► if it was AI based or something, we would have different problems.

00:51:17 ◼   ► We wouldn't have no problems.

00:51:19 ◼   ► So it's just part of being an iOS developer

00:51:22 ◼   ► is you got to play the system.

00:51:24 ◼   ► You have to know that, yeah, there's occasional landmines

00:51:27 ◼   ► you're going to step on.

00:51:28 ◼   ► You don't really know how certain things are going to go.

00:51:31 ◼   ► And you kind of just build that into your expectations.

00:51:33 ◼   ► And we can rage and we can fight against it.

00:51:35 ◼   ► And we can say app review sucks.

00:51:36 ◼   ► We can say we shouldn't need to do this, et cetera.

00:51:39 ◼   ► And that's all.

00:51:40 ◼   ► Sometimes we need to fight that fight.

00:51:41 ◼   ► But usually we just have to work within the system the way it is.

00:51:44 ◼   ► But here's the thing with the system.

00:51:45 ◼   ► You mentioned it being AI powered.

00:51:47 ◼   ► Like it could be worse.

00:51:48 ◼   ► It could be like no humans involved.

00:51:49 ◼   ► But we have the worst of both worlds.

00:51:51 ◼   ► We have fallible humans, but also we

00:51:53 ◼   ► don't have the humanity that comes with them.

00:51:56 ◼   ► What we would expect, maybe not in Casey's case,

00:51:58 ◼   ► but in other cases where people get angry about things,

00:52:00 ◼   ► is like in actual human relationships between humans

00:52:03 ◼   ► or even just relationships between companies,

00:52:06 ◼   ► a thing called reputation exists.

00:52:08 ◼   ► There is a level of trust that gets built up.

00:52:10 ◼   ► Like Panic, the software developer Panic,

00:52:14 ◼   ► should be treated differently by Apple than I am,

00:52:19 ◼   ► or than Casey is.

00:52:20 ◼   ► Because they have such a long history of such high quality

00:52:23 ◼   ► applications, there is trust built up

00:52:26 ◼   ► from literal decades of working with this company

00:52:29 ◼   ► and these same people.

00:52:30 ◼   ► When humans relate to each other, it's not all the same.

00:52:33 ◼   ► So app review, everybody's the same.

00:52:35 ◼   ► Everyone's supposedly treated the same.

00:52:36 ◼   ► That's supposed to be fair.

00:52:37 ◼   ► But what it doesn't allow to happen is to like,

00:52:40 ◼   ► let's give Panic the benefit of the doubt.

00:52:42 ◼   ► Let's assume that they're not secretly doing like--

00:52:46 ◼   ► let's not assume the worst of them.

00:52:47 ◼   ► Let's give them a review who actually looks at their app

00:52:49 ◼   ► and knows that it doesn't contain a video player.

00:52:51 ◼   ► You know what I mean?

00:52:51 ◼   ► Like there should be different treatment.

00:52:53 ◼   ► There is different treatment for Microsoft, Google, Adobe,

00:52:56 ◼   ► the big companies that are big competitors

00:52:58 ◼   ► or that Apple needs or whatever.

00:52:59 ◼   ► So that does exist, as we've talked about.

00:53:01 ◼   ► But I feel like the next level down,

00:53:03 ◼   ► like we want-- if it's humans to humans,

00:53:05 ◼   ► I want the advantages of it being a human powered process

00:53:08 ◼   ► in addition to the disadvantages.

00:53:10 ◼   ► Now I just feel like we just get the disadvantages

00:53:12 ◼   ► and there are no advantages.

00:53:13 ◼   ► And whether that's an advantage like, oh, Casey gets to talk--

00:53:16 ◼   ► you know, Casey assumed when he talked to a human,

00:53:18 ◼   ► he'd be able to work it out.

00:53:19 ◼   ► Because at that point, he's getting higher bandwidth

00:53:22 ◼   ► treatment.

00:53:23 ◼   ► And to Casey's point earlier, wouldn't it

00:53:25 ◼   ► have been easier to skip all that time

00:53:27 ◼   ► that we've wasted both of our time and energy

00:53:29 ◼   ► before this five second phone call?

00:53:31 ◼   ► This five second phone call, granted, it's not as scalable.

00:53:33 ◼   ► You know, people-- after you can't be calling everybody

00:53:35 ◼   ► on the phone or whatever.

00:53:36 ◼   ► But if Apple had put the amount of effort

00:53:38 ◼   ► they put into that phone call into one or two

00:53:40 ◼   ► of those earlier reviews, this whole problem

00:53:42 ◼   ► could have been avoided.

00:53:43 ◼   ► So I still feel like--

00:53:44 ◼   ► I'm not saying that they have to be perfect.

00:53:46 ◼   ► There's always going to be mistakes.

00:53:47 ◼   ► But if it's going to be human powered,

00:53:49 ◼   ► I want some of the advantages of human review.

00:53:52 ◼   ► And part of those advantages is the ability

00:53:54 ◼   ► to build up trust and a reputation over time

00:53:56 ◼   ► for good developers.

00:53:57 ◼   ► Which again, may not apply to Casey with his handful of apps

00:53:59 ◼   ► that he's put out.

00:54:00 ◼   ► But the other developers--

00:54:01 ◼   ► Are you saying he's a bad developer?

00:54:03 ◼   ► No, but I'm just saying like--

00:54:04 ◼   ► I understand.

00:54:05 ◼   ► Some developer-- he's not Panic, right?

00:54:07 ◼   ► He's not Adobe.

00:54:07 ◼   ► He's not Microsoft.

00:54:08 ◼   ► He's not one of those giant companies.

00:54:09 ◼   ► And he's also not a small developer

00:54:11 ◼   ► who has like decades and decades of-- you know,

00:54:13 ◼   ► he's not Underscore.

00:54:14 ◼   ► You know what I mean?

00:54:15 ◼   ► Those type of relationships built up over time saying,

00:54:18 ◼   ► has Underscore been sneaking bad stuff in there?

00:54:20 ◼   ► Is he stealing people's contacts?

00:54:21 ◼   ► Is he making gambling apps for children?

00:54:23 ◼   ► No, no, no.

00:54:24 ◼   ► He's not doing any of that.

00:54:25 ◼   ► So he should have a higher level of trust than, hey,

00:54:28 ◼   ► we've never heard of this developer,

00:54:29 ◼   ► and I have no idea what this app is.

00:54:31 ◼   ► Well, but on the other hand, though, I mean, look, again,

00:54:33 ◼   ► the system has a lot of flaws.

00:54:35 ◼   ► But I also love the fact that everyone

00:54:38 ◼   ► gets a similar level of BS.

00:54:40 ◼   ► [LAUGHTER]

00:54:43 ◼   ► That there aren't--

00:54:44 ◼   ► I mean, there is just for Adobe and Google and Microsoft.

00:54:47 ◼   ► Yeah, but like Facebook--

00:54:49 ◼   ► Netflix.

00:54:50 ◼   ► Facebook isn't able to break a certain rule much more

00:54:53 ◼   ► than we can.

00:54:54 ◼   ► But when they break it--

00:54:55 ◼   ► Facebook gets that in the other direction.

00:54:56 ◼   ► They get extra scrutiny.

00:54:57 ◼   ► Well, but when they break a rule,

00:55:00 ◼   ► they still can't release the app,

00:55:01 ◼   ► but they aren't kicked out of the developer program forever.

00:55:04 ◼   ► There is some big company privilege for sure.

00:55:07 ◼   ► And there have been occasional special deals made.

00:55:11 ◼   ► There was that rumor that seemed pretty well-backed

00:55:13 ◼   ► that Netflix was not paying the 30% for some time.

00:55:17 ◼   ► And again, as I've said many years in the past,

00:55:20 ◼   ► that's appropriate.

00:55:21 ◼   ► Apple should do that.

00:55:22 ◼   ► It makes sense to do it.

00:55:23 ◼   ► It would be dumb not to do that.

00:55:24 ◼   ► Anyway, so the system is not perfect.

00:55:26 ◼   ► But overall, it does work mostly the same for most people

00:55:32 ◼   ► most of the time.

00:55:34 ◼   ► And so that is a little more comforting.

00:55:36 ◼   ► And it's probably better than the alternative

00:55:38 ◼   ► of the big companies get much better reviewers,

00:55:42 ◼   ► and then the rest of us get only Casey's first level reviewer.

00:55:45 ◼   ► [LAUGHTER]

00:55:47 ◼   ► Right, so I think the point that Ibrahim and a few other people

00:55:51 ◼   ► have said who have also used the stuff from the movie database

00:55:54 ◼   ► is that they want-- I'm putting a lot of words

00:55:56 ◼   ► in a lot of people's mouths here.

00:55:58 ◼   ► But it seems to me that the general gist of it

00:56:00 ◼   ► is that Apple wants to be able to say, look,

00:56:04 ◼   ► this person or this company or whatever,

00:56:06 ◼   ► at least on the surface, seems to have some sort of rights

00:56:09 ◼   ► to the content that they're presenting.

00:56:11 ◼   ► And by using the movie database API,

00:56:13 ◼   ► they have granted me those rights.

00:56:15 ◼   ► And presumably on the ingestion side,

00:56:18 ◼   ► like I was saying a minute ago, whoever's uploading this stuff,

00:56:20 ◼   ► they're claiming to have these rights.

00:56:22 ◼   ► Doesn't mean they do.

00:56:23 ◼   ► But at least they're claiming to.

00:56:24 ◼   ► So the movie database feels like, for right or wrong,

00:56:26 ◼   ► they're in the clear.

00:56:27 ◼   ► I'm not saying that's factual.

00:56:28 ◼   ► I'm just saying that that's what they feel like.

00:56:30 ◼   ► And then Apple can say, well, look,

00:56:32 ◼   ► this app developer says they got the rights from there.

00:56:34 ◼   ► Don't sue me.

00:56:36 ◼   ► Don't sue Apple, Disney.

00:56:38 ◼   ► Sue either the movie database or this Casey List character.

00:56:41 ◼   ► Sue them.

00:56:42 ◼   ► Again, maybe this is just a circumstantial--

00:56:44 ◼   ► I think it was John that said that earlier.

00:56:45 ◼   ► Hi, this is Casey.

00:56:46 ◼   ► And maybe this doesn't have anything to do with it.

00:56:49 ◼   ► But enough people have said similar things

00:56:52 ◼   ► that it makes me think that that might be factual.

00:56:54 ◼   ► Yeah, these all sound like good hacks

00:56:56 ◼   ► for trying to get through those source reviewers

00:56:58 ◼   ► that you got who just aren't paying enough attention

00:56:59 ◼   ► to your app.

00:57:00 ◼   ► And you just need to find some way

00:57:01 ◼   ► to find some words that their eyes are going to fall across

00:57:04 ◼   ► and go, oh, that makes me feel better about it.

00:57:06 ◼   ► Because again, Richard didn't say

00:57:08 ◼   ► you need to add the statement.

00:57:09 ◼   ► Richard didn't say you need to get this agreement.

00:57:11 ◼   ► He didn't say anything.

00:57:12 ◼   ► He said, you're good to go.

00:57:13 ◼   ► Because he, I think, by the time he called you on the phone,

00:57:15 ◼   ► understood what your app was about.

00:57:18 ◼   ► As mentioned extensively in the app, as Ian said,

00:57:20 ◼   ► maybe you should have mentioned it more extensively

00:57:22 ◼   ► in your app.

00:57:23 ◼   ► Maybe your launch screen should be powered by TMDB API.

00:57:27 ◼   ► In any case, so what are the plans for launch?

00:57:29 ◼   ► So as we record, what is it today?

00:57:31 ◼   ► The 26th of July.

00:57:33 ◼   ► I'm not quite ready to hit the Go button.

00:57:35 ◼   ► But I think the plan is-- and this is just

00:57:38 ◼   ► between us ATP listeners-- I think

00:57:40 ◼   ► the plan is on Monday, the 7th of August,

00:57:43 ◼   ► that is the intention.

00:57:45 ◼   ► Monday, the 7th of August, the app will go live.

00:57:47 ◼   ► My intention is in the next 24 to 48 hours,

00:57:50 ◼   ► I am going to cut off the previous member-only perk

00:57:54 ◼   ► of the test flight.

00:57:56 ◼   ► But hand to God, this app is much better

00:57:59 ◼   ► because of all of the people that used it

00:58:02 ◼   ► before it went to app review.

00:58:04 ◼   ► And I'm really appreciative of all the people

00:58:06 ◼   ► that signed up to try it, that signed up at ATP.com/join.

00:58:10 ◼   ► I'm appreciative of all of you who have sent me feedback.

00:58:13 ◼   ► Almost all of it was extremely useful and extremely actionable.

00:58:16 ◼   ► Some of it was not.

00:58:17 ◼   ► But that's how it goes.

00:58:20 ◼   ► And it's been surprisingly pleasurable for me

00:58:26 ◼   ► to get all of this feedback and to work through problems

00:58:29 ◼   ► that I didn't see because I'm too close to it.

00:58:31 ◼   ► And if I'm completely honest, the reason

00:58:34 ◼   ► I did all this originally was because I was trying

00:58:36 ◼   ► to juice ATP memberships.

00:58:38 ◼   ► But it actually ended up working out really nice for me

00:58:40 ◼   ► in the sense that it worked out nicely for call sheets.

00:58:42 ◼   ► So I'm really thankful for it.

00:58:44 ◼   ► I appreciate if you spent any time looking at the app

00:58:46 ◼   ► and sending feedback and so on.

00:58:49 ◼   ► But yeah, on Monday, August 7th, that is the plan.

00:58:52 ◼   ► I plan to release then probably 9 in the morning Eastern.

00:58:56 ◼   ► But we'll talk about it when we get closer.

00:58:58 ◼   ► Or maybe I'll certainly be tooting about it on Mastodon.

00:59:02 ◼   ► Maybe I'll be threading it.

00:59:03 ◼   ► We'll talk about that potentially in a minute.

00:59:04 ◼   ► There are no precise app release times in the App Store.

00:59:07 ◼   ► Well, there's that too.

00:59:08 ◼   ► That's true.

00:59:09 ◼   ► But anyways, the idea is on Monday the 7th.

00:59:12 ◼   ► And genuinely, I'm really, really excited.

00:59:13 ◼   ► I'm really scared, but I'm really excited.

00:59:15 ◼   ► I hope the damn thing works.

00:59:18 ◼   ► And I'm really looking forward to it.

00:59:20 ◼   ► So on Monday the 7th, that's what's gonna happen.

00:59:23 ◼   ► - It works and it's gonna be great.

00:59:24 ◼   ► You'll see.

00:59:25 ◼   ► - I appreciate it.

00:59:25 ◼   ► All right, continuing on the followup that will not end,

00:59:28 ◼   ► and that's in no small part my fault.

00:59:29 ◼   ► Hi, this is Casey.

00:59:31 ◼   ► On upgrade 468, an anonymous Apple engineer

00:59:33 ◼   ► talked to the wrong podcast about Mac Pro stuff.

00:59:36 ◼   ► What the hell is this?

00:59:37 ◼   ► - I know, right?

00:59:38 ◼   ► - We are, I have endured hours of Mac Pro bullshit.

00:59:43 ◼   ► I mean content.

00:59:44 ◼   ► I have endured hours of it.

00:59:46 ◼   ► And I, the hell with you two.

00:59:49 ◼   ► I don't get the benefit of getting this feedback

00:59:51 ◼   ► to lord over these two jerks.

00:59:54 ◼   ► I quit.

00:59:55 ◼   ► Everyone's fired.

00:59:56 ◼   ► You're all fired and I quit.

00:59:57 ◼   ► Anyway, upgrade 468, which other than this moment

01:00:01 ◼   ► is one of my favorite podcasts, except right now.

01:00:03 ◼   ► I hate it right now.

01:00:04 ◼   ► But anyway, upgrade 468, an anonymous Apple engineer

01:00:08 ◼   ► working on the GPU team said the following,

01:00:10 ◼   ► I presume this was John that transcribed this.

01:00:12 ◼   ► Thank you, John.

01:00:13 ◼   ► The Apple engineer said, "The quad chip has been canned

01:00:16 ◼   ► with no plans to return.

01:00:18 ◼   ► For context, we are actively developing

01:00:20 ◼   ► what will presumably be the M5 chip.

01:00:22 ◼   ► And the quad chip was only ever spec'd for the M1

01:00:25 ◼   ► and removed late in the project.

01:00:26 ◼   ► There are no plans to create a quad chip

01:00:28 ◼   ► through at least the M7 generation.

01:00:30 ◼   ► My understanding is that the quad required too much effort

01:00:32 ◼   ► for too small a market.

01:00:33 ◼   ► Something interesting that may come in the M8

01:00:36 ◼   ► and future generations is called multi-die packaging.

01:00:39 ◼   ► This allows the CPU and GPU parts of the chip

01:00:41 ◼   ► to be fabricated on different dies and packaged together,

01:00:44 ◼   ► much like how two max chips make an ultra.

01:00:47 ◼   ► With this design, it's conceivable that we could have

01:00:49 ◼   ► three, four, or five, or more GPU dies

01:00:51 ◼   ► with one or two CPUs for a graphics powerhouse

01:00:54 ◼   ► or vice versa for CPU workstation

01:00:56 ◼   ► that doesn't need as much GPU grunt.

01:00:59 ◼   ► However, as far as I know, no such plans exist yet."

01:01:02 ◼   ► John, you have the floor.

01:01:03 ◼   ► - So some of this is old information.

01:01:06 ◼   ► We knew the quad was canned.

01:01:07 ◼   ► We knew it was only planned for the M1, so on and so forth.

01:01:09 ◼   ► So the new information is, "Oh, and by the way,

01:01:11 ◼   ► we talked in a past episode, so they could do the quad

01:01:13 ◼   ► in the M3 generation or something."

01:01:15 ◼   ► It's like, no, this rumor, again,

01:01:17 ◼   ► I want to emphasize that upgrade cannot and does not vouch

01:01:20 ◼   ► for this anonymous thing 'cause we get anonymous feedback.

01:01:23 ◼   ► It just, you know, this is what they say.

01:01:25 ◼   ► This is what they're claiming.

01:01:26 ◼   ► So just, I don't want to, if this turns out not to be true,

01:01:28 ◼   ► don't blame upgrade and don't blame us.

01:01:30 ◼   ► It's, you know, you just sometimes

01:01:31 ◼   ► you get anonymous feedback,

01:01:32 ◼   ► but this is what this thing, this person claims.

01:01:36 ◼   ► They said, "Not only is the quad not coming anytime soon,

01:01:39 ◼   ► there are zero plans for it up through the M7."

01:01:42 ◼   ► This, by the way, shows you how long the timelines are

01:01:44 ◼   ► and hardware stuff has to be planned out

01:01:45 ◼   ► years and years in advance for this stuff.

01:01:48 ◼   ► Plans can, of course, change,

01:01:50 ◼   ► but this really shows what Apple is thinking,

01:01:53 ◼   ► if this rumor is true, about the directions.

01:01:56 ◼   ► It's not like, "Oh, we couldn't do the quad.

01:01:58 ◼   ► It was too expensive, and, you know,

01:02:00 ◼   ► the M2 is not that different from the M1,

01:02:02 ◼   ► but we'll revisit this later."

01:02:04 ◼   ► It's more like, "We couldn't do the quad.

01:02:06 ◼   ► It's too expensive, and, by the way, forget about the quad."

01:02:09 ◼   ► Just forget about it.

01:02:10 ◼   ► We're just gonna plan out our chips.

01:02:12 ◼   ► We're gonna go M3, M4, M5, M6, M7.

01:02:15 ◼   ► We'll just plan out our long five-year,

01:02:17 ◼   ► six-year, 10-year plan.

01:02:18 ◼   ► Don't even worry about the quad.

01:02:20 ◼   ► It doesn't need to be anywhere on there.

01:02:21 ◼   ► We don't need it.

01:02:22 ◼   ► The multi-chip packaging,

01:02:23 ◼   ► we've talked about that back in the day

01:02:25 ◼   ► when we were originally talking about the, you know,

01:02:26 ◼   ► Jade 4C and everything, and chiplet architectures

01:02:29 ◼   ► in the city of chips and different ways

01:02:31 ◼   ► to put multiple dies in the same package.

01:02:33 ◼   ► This is before we knew about the Ultra, really,

01:02:35 ◼   ► but, yes, of course, that is a conceivable approach,

01:02:37 ◼   ► but if this rumor is true,

01:02:40 ◼   ► if this anonymous, you know, inside tip is true,

01:02:44 ◼   ► it tells you what Apple thinks

01:02:47 ◼   ► of the future of the Mac line,

01:02:49 ◼   ► and what it thinks is that it does not need

01:02:51 ◼   ► to have anything more powerful than the Ultra.

01:02:55 ◼   ► Obviously, you know, the M3 will be,

01:02:57 ◼   ► the M3 Ultra will be more powerful than the M2 Ultra,

01:02:59 ◼   ► and up to the M4, you know, they'll get faster over time,

01:03:02 ◼   ► but it seems like they think that class of chip

01:03:06 ◼   ► is all they're going to need.

01:03:08 ◼   ► What that says about the Mac Pro,

01:03:09 ◼   ► whether they keep shipping that big tower case,

01:03:11 ◼   ► or whether they don't, or whatever,

01:03:12 ◼   ► is not that important, unless you're one of those people

01:03:15 ◼   ► who really needs those PCI slots,

01:03:17 ◼   ► but what this really says to me is they think

01:03:21 ◼   ► that if you're doing something with a Mac right now,

01:03:24 ◼   ► or you have to wait for the computer,

01:03:25 ◼   ► they're not going to do anything to help you,

01:03:30 ◼   ► other than give you one that is incrementally faster

01:03:32 ◼   ► than you have now.

01:03:33 ◼   ► Like, there's not, they could get more performance.

01:03:36 ◼   ► Like, there is more performance to be had.

01:03:38 ◼   ► So in any realm, GPU or CPU, you could get a PC

01:03:42 ◼   ► that has more GPU cores, much bigger, you know,

01:03:47 ◼   ► more CPU cores, much bigger GPU,

01:03:49 ◼   ► that would do your task faster,

01:03:51 ◼   ► assuming it's a cross-platform app,

01:03:52 ◼   ► or there's some equivalent, or whatever.

01:03:54 ◼   ► But they're like, no, if you get a Studio or a Mac Pro,

01:03:56 ◼   ► which is basically the same, whatever speed that does it at,

01:03:59 ◼   ► I know you could get a PC that does the task twice as fast

01:04:03 ◼   ► because it has twice as many cores,

01:04:04 ◼   ► but we're never going to sell a machine that's like that.

01:04:06 ◼   ► So if you sort of look at the PC market and you say,

01:04:09 ◼   ► here is the sort of performance ceiling for CPU and GPU

01:04:12 ◼   ► for personal computers within some reasonable price ceiling,

01:04:17 ◼   ► Apple is always going to be a fairly significant step

01:04:19 ◼   ► below that, because they're just not going to build anything

01:04:22 ◼   ► that can compete with the high end,

01:04:24 ◼   ► because they're saying we're not going to build something

01:04:26 ◼   ► that's like a quad, which means they're gonna build,

01:04:28 ◼   ► the biggest thing they're gonna build is an Ultra,

01:04:30 ◼   ► and we kind of know the thermal envelope of the Ultra,

01:04:32 ◼   ► the machine they put it in.

01:04:34 ◼   ► This rumor is saying is basically,

01:04:35 ◼   ► it's like, look, if we can't fit it in the Mac Studio case,

01:04:37 ◼   ► we're not gonna make it,

01:04:39 ◼   ► because if we needed something bigger,

01:04:42 ◼   ► I really don't think they're gonna make an Ultra

01:04:44 ◼   ► that's too big to fit in the Mac Studio case, for example.

01:04:46 ◼   ► The M6 Ultra will fit in the Mac Studio case

01:04:49 ◼   ► because that's what that chip is designed for.

01:04:52 ◼   ► But you could build something with more cores

01:04:55 ◼   ► that would be faster, that would fit in the Mac Pro case,

01:04:57 ◼   ► and this rumor is saying Apple does not plan

01:04:59 ◼   ► to do that at all.

01:05:00 ◼   ► And that's fine for people who don't really wait

01:05:03 ◼   ► for their computers to do much of anything,

01:05:06 ◼   ► but if you're currently waiting on your computer

01:05:08 ◼   ► and you're like, boy, I wish this could be faster,

01:05:10 ◼   ► yeah, next year it will be faster,

01:05:11 ◼   ► but if you're like, but this could be twice as fast

01:05:14 ◼   ► as if I had twice as many CPU cores,

01:05:16 ◼   ► Apple's like, it could be,

01:05:17 ◼   ► but we're not gonna make that machine for you.

01:05:19 ◼   ► And that may be fine, because most people don't need that.

01:05:23 ◼   ► But it is disappointing on multiple levels.

01:05:26 ◼   ► Obviously it's disappointing to me,

01:05:27 ◼   ► and I think they should make that machine

01:05:28 ◼   ► because it's an exciting thing to pursue,

01:05:29 ◼   ► and so on and so forth.

01:05:32 ◼   ► But it does mean that a certain section of the market

01:05:35 ◼   ► that continues to think, well, maybe next year

01:05:38 ◼   ► they'll make one, and maybe this Mac Pro

01:05:39 ◼   ► is just an interim step.

01:05:40 ◼   ► This rumor turns out to be true.

01:05:41 ◼   ► Those people who don't listen to this podcast probably

01:05:44 ◼   ► are gonna be like, as the years pass, they're gonna be like,

01:05:46 ◼   ► huh, I guess Apple's just not gonna do that anymore,

01:05:50 ◼   ► and they'll be disappointed.

01:05:51 ◼   ► And I do wonder if we're not just going through

01:05:53 ◼   ► this cycle again that we've gone through

01:05:55 ◼   ► a couple of times where Apple sort of

01:05:57 ◼   ► loses interest in the Mac Pro level hardware,

01:05:59 ◼   ► and either stops making it or makes some

01:06:01 ◼   ► that's disappointing, and then Pro users get angry,

01:06:03 ◼   ► and then Apple apologizes and tries to make a new one.

01:06:07 ◼   ► That's not a healthy cycle, but the two alternatives are,

01:06:12 ◼   ► we're in that cycle again, and there's gonna be

01:06:14 ◼   ► some equivalent over the round table five years from now,

01:06:17 ◼   ► where there'll be some crisis and people

01:06:18 ◼   ► are gonna be complaining.

01:06:19 ◼   ► Or there won't be that crisis, and Apple is just

01:06:22 ◼   ► stepping back from that market entirely.

01:06:25 ◼   ► And I think stepping back from that market entirely is,

01:06:27 ◼   ► again, I think it's a bad idea, but it's also,

01:06:29 ◼   ► not for the reasons you think, like setting aside GPUs,

01:06:32 ◼   ► because I wanna set that aside for a second.

01:06:33 ◼   ► Just CPU, the Mac Studio is small,

01:06:37 ◼   ► and there's only so much CPU heat generation

01:06:42 ◼   ► you can put in that case.

01:06:43 ◼   ► Again, setting aside GPU, pretend the GPU is as small

01:06:46 ◼   ► as you could possibly make it.

01:06:47 ◼   ► You can make and use more CPU cores

01:06:50 ◼   ► for things that are highly parallel.

01:06:52 ◼   ► Maybe Apple doesn't care about those things,

01:06:54 ◼   ► like 3D rendering in Blender or whatever,

01:06:57 ◼   ► whatever tests that you have that can actually spread

01:06:58 ◼   ► across all the CPU cores.

01:07:01 ◼   ► Even something as simple as compiling.

01:07:02 ◼   ► If you have a huge application, I imagine,

01:07:04 ◼   ► if Xcode is doing its job, it could use 24, 48 cores

01:07:09 ◼   ► if you're building some gigantic thing, maybe.

01:07:11 ◼   ► I don't know what the best examples of multi-CPU things are,

01:07:14 ◼   ► but those applications exist, and Apple is basically saying,

01:07:19 ◼   ► even though you could use more CPU cores,

01:07:20 ◼   ► we're not going to sell them to you.

01:07:23 ◼   ► And you can get them from Intel,

01:07:24 ◼   ► 'cause Intel will sell you something

01:07:26 ◼   ► with 56 cores right now, and you need a big case for it.

01:07:29 ◼   ► And we do have a big case, but we're not gonna put

01:07:31 ◼   ► any CPUs like that in there.

01:07:33 ◼   ► And that's always going to be disappointing and limiting.

01:07:35 ◼   ► The GPUs now, getting to them,

01:07:38 ◼   ► this is actually a separate issue,

01:07:39 ◼   ► because Apple could, at any point in the future, say,

01:07:43 ◼   ► oh, and by the way, we've decided to bring back

01:07:44 ◼   ► external GPU support, whether it's an Apple GPU

01:07:46 ◼   ► or a third party, like, that option is always there.

01:07:49 ◼   ► Even if it's just for compute or whatever,

01:07:51 ◼   ► they can always do that, but the CPU thing is actually worse,

01:07:54 ◼   ► because you can't add more CPU cores with a card.

01:07:57 ◼   ► So as long as Apple continues to make a thing

01:07:58 ◼   ► with card slots, at the M5 generation,

01:08:01 ◼   ► if people are complaining or they think there's some market

01:08:03 ◼   ► they need to go after, they can come back with the FPGA card,

01:08:06 ◼   ► like the afterburner, right?

01:08:07 ◼   ► But they can also say, hey, we have an external GPU,

01:08:11 ◼   ► or some machine learning thing, like,

01:08:13 ◼   ► those slots exist, Apple can use them.

01:08:15 ◼   ► There's nothing about the lack of a quad

01:08:17 ◼   ► that precludes that.

01:08:18 ◼   ► What the lack of the quad kills is big multi-core CPUs,

01:08:22 ◼   ► because where are the CPU cores gonna come from?

01:08:24 ◼   ► Now, the whole idea of being able to rebalance them,

01:08:26 ◼   ► let's make one with lots of CPUs and few GPUs or vice versa,

01:08:30 ◼   ► that's cool and all, but if you have to fit it

01:08:32 ◼   ► within the MacStudio thermal envelope,

01:08:35 ◼   ► there's only so much horse trading you can do there,

01:08:38 ◼   ► like, oh, I wanna have five more CPU cores,

01:08:40 ◼   ► but then I have to reduce my GPU, and you can't,

01:08:43 ◼   ► you can never put as much GPU as you want in there,

01:08:46 ◼   ► because there's just not enough thermal headroom,

01:08:49 ◼   ► and if you start pushing out the GPU for more CPU cores,

01:08:52 ◼   ► you can't push out all the GPU,

01:08:54 ◼   ► you have to drive the display somehow,

01:08:55 ◼   ► so I think that's interesting,

01:08:58 ◼   ► and I think if they actually use that technology,

01:09:01 ◼   ► they should use it to make, essentially,

01:09:03 ◼   ► the equivalent of the quad that's not actually a quad.

01:09:05 ◼   ► It would be an ultra, but there would be

01:09:08 ◼   ► two much bigger ultras with different ratios of stuff,

01:09:10 ◼   ► and then like a third-party GPU or something like that, so.

01:09:13 ◼   ► Anyway, we'll see how this goes.

01:09:15 ◼   ► I don't know how much credence to put in this rumor.

01:09:17 ◼   ► It is pretty definitive saying that

01:09:20 ◼   ► we're just not gonna do this for a long, long time,

01:09:23 ◼   ► but boy, if there's not, because there was pushback before,

01:09:26 ◼   ► like, why did they have the Mac roundtable?

01:09:28 ◼   ► The Mac Pro was a big part of that,

01:09:30 ◼   ► but part of what people wanted was make me a fast computer

01:09:34 ◼   ► and make it expandable and quote-unquote modular.

01:09:36 ◼   ► Remember the big discussion we had,

01:09:37 ◼   ► what the heck did they mean by modular?

01:09:38 ◼   ► I think what I thought they meant by modular,

01:09:40 ◼   ► I made it, said it as a joke, but also kind of serious,

01:09:43 ◼   ► was they mean the monitor is not part of the computer.

01:09:46 ◼   ► That's one definition of modular.

01:09:48 ◼   ► And Apple makes a modular computer,

01:09:50 ◼   ► multiple modular computers,

01:09:51 ◼   ► where the monitor is not part of it.

01:09:53 ◼   ► One of them is called the Mac Studio.

01:09:55 ◼   ► That does fulfill one of the things

01:09:57 ◼   ► that roundtable was about,

01:09:58 ◼   ► because people were kind of pissed at like,

01:10:00 ◼   ► I Mac Pro is an amazing computer,

01:10:02 ◼   ► but what if I don't want the screen

01:10:04 ◼   ► connected to the computer part?

01:10:05 ◼   ► Please make me a modular computer, and they did.

01:10:07 ◼   ► I mean, they made the trash can and that was modular too,

01:10:09 ◼   ► but that was also a problem, right?

01:10:11 ◼   ► That was before that.

01:10:12 ◼   ► But the Mac Studio does fulfill a lot of that promise.

01:10:15 ◼   ► But I do wonder if we're not just headed

01:10:17 ◼   ► for another collision of people saying, come on, Apple,

01:10:20 ◼   ► insert competitor name here, offers me an 87 core CPU,

01:10:25 ◼   ► and Nvidia is making this monster GPU

01:10:27 ◼   ► that you can't compete with,

01:10:29 ◼   ► but you offer me nothing that can do anything like that,

01:10:31 ◼   ► and I have to leave your ecosystem and use PC instead,

01:10:35 ◼   ► because you don't compete in that category anymore.

01:10:38 ◼   ► Maybe Apple will say, fine, see ya, I don't care.

01:10:40 ◼   ► We don't sell that many of those anyway.

01:10:42 ◼   ► But I do think that is probably a mistake.

01:10:44 ◼   ► Like I said, the Vision Pro uses a chip from a Mac,

01:10:47 ◼   ► granted a lower powered chip from a Mac,

01:10:49 ◼   ► but it does not use an iPhone chip.

01:10:51 ◼   ► So I really do think Apple should reconsider these plans.

01:10:54 ◼   ► It doesn't mean they need to make a quad,

01:10:55 ◼   ► 'cause maybe that's the wrong approach

01:10:57 ◼   ► to making a Mac Pro caliber system on a chip or whatever.

01:11:01 ◼   ► Maybe trying to put four of them together is too much.

01:11:04 ◼   ► Maybe they want to revisit and say,

01:11:06 ◼   ► we're going to make the Ultra,

01:11:07 ◼   ► and the extreme will be basically two things

01:11:11 ◼   ► that are bigger than a Mac shoved together like the Ultra.

01:11:14 ◼   ► You know what I mean?

01:11:14 ◼   ► There are other potential options,

01:11:16 ◼   ► but that's not mentioned in these plans either.

01:11:17 ◼   ► But I'm just the idea guy, Apple, you gotta run with this.

01:11:21 ◼   ► My idea is don't do this,

01:11:23 ◼   ► because totally giving up the high end

01:11:25 ◼   ► is something that Apple has pretty much never done.