00:00:00 ◼ ► It's the end of the month and the only episode of this show I've done other than my live show
00:00:04 ◼ ► It was with Christian Selig and we obviously spent most of that episode talking about red it and that whole saga
00:00:20 ◼ ► I'm curious a couple weeks out Matthew. What's your rearview mirror view of WWDC this year?
00:00:28 ◼ ► Good, you know super exciting obviously anytime a new category comes along. It's sort of just
00:00:32 ◼ ► Drowns out any other news right if you dig deeper into the catalog of what happened there
00:00:44 ◼ ► And I think people came away feeling that and I feel that way I feel like there's some good layers of interesting things there
00:01:10 ◼ ► So that's all anybody's talking about and that's still what I'm thinking about to be honest. I I
00:01:22 ◼ ► But we should definitely start with vision so that we can spend as much time on it as we want and obviously
00:01:44 ◼ ► That it's a year where every one of the other platforms feels like it's having a very solid
00:01:53 ◼ ► Just a very good mix of new stuff. That's actually useful not just like hey, we it's a new year
00:02:00 ◼ ► We need new stuff. Let's tack something else on which I think is a way by other platforms
00:02:07 ◼ ► I'm talking like industry-wide if no I'm talking Apple Apple feels like they're firing on all cylinders
00:02:19 ◼ ► Pad and even the watch like even this nice sort of visual refresh to the watch and a sort of hey
00:02:26 ◼ ► We're at watch OS 10, but we're still sort of and and it's this gadget with only two or three buttons now
00:02:31 ◼ ► There's the the action button for the the ultra it has the most minimal input of any device
00:03:08 ◼ ► Sure listening to this podcast right everybody wants that snow leopard year where they just say no new features
00:03:20 ◼ ► And in fact didn't really happen with snow leopard like snow leopard actually added a bunch of really important new stuff
00:03:40 ◼ ► I mean, it's the sort of thing where the typical user of a Mac it was like I have no idea what Grand Central dispatches
00:03:45 ◼ ► But from the sort of thing they could add to an operating system was not no new features
00:03:53 ◼ ► It's like hey does still up and have like a bunch of new consumer touch points like panels that I click on right?
00:04:05 ◼ ► When you move to like a different file architecture for OS 10 or introduce Grand Central dispatch these architectural changes
00:04:12 ◼ ► Look, this is a cascading effect that ripples through every engineering org at Apple when you do those kinds of fundamental changes
00:04:32 ◼ ► I yeah, and I just looking back at the keynote and all the other stuff before one more thing
00:04:38 ◼ ► It just feels like every single one of these platforms is in a pretty good pretty good shape and and it's a good year
00:04:53 ◼ ► Because they wanted to spend so much time on vision and vision OS in this two-hour keynote
00:05:00 ◼ ► Everything else whatever did make it into the keynote for Mac iPhone iPad watch is what they really really care about and none of those
00:05:16 ◼ ► Well, we got to add something and I feel like that's a disaster waiting that that's when platforms start to accumulate
00:05:28 ◼ ► And I don't and I so I think it's also very good for the company overall to have a brand new platform like vision OS
00:05:54 ◼ ► Which is let's face it every even iPad and watch at this point should be considered mature platforms
00:06:04 ◼ ► Yeah, so less I message apps and more like new paradigms for interfacing with apps in space
00:06:12 ◼ ► Right in space, right? Yeah. Yeah, definitely. All right. Let me start here and thank our first sponsor and it is our very good friend
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00:08:01 ◼ ► So that's totally free just get all of it at once never underestimate the bandwidth of FedEx truck with a USB drive in it
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00:09:01 ◼ ► Know like the refresher course on our demo because you you like me got the 30-minute press demo and the experience of using it
00:09:15 ◼ ► developers downloaded it and started like converting their existing projects like iOS and iPad apps and
00:09:21 ◼ ► Looking at the screenshots that they're posting from their apps in the SDK. Yeah, that's what it looked like
00:09:30 ◼ ► Yeah, I mean I think that's that's like gosh radical unsurprised like that's that's a good thing when you're introducing new
00:09:44 ◼ ► examples rolling out looking like the thing you saw in person is one of the most radically unsurprising and yet radically calming things you can
00:09:53 ◼ ► Feel about a new platform as obviously developers some people that got the early look at this were developers
00:10:00 ◼ ► And so they saw that and then now they're experimenting with the SDK. It wasn't all press people, right?
00:10:05 ◼ ► They definitely do right seed some demos with developers to give them ideas about what to do or just you just basically
00:10:12 ◼ ► Broadcast. Hey, this thing is real into the developer community without the intermediary layer of like you or I saying hey, this thing's great
00:10:20 ◼ ► You should know more. It was really interesting and now that everybody has the SDK the examples that we're seeing come out of it
00:10:26 ◼ ► Feel very much like what we saw which to me means that even though this is an extremely early SDK
00:10:33 ◼ ► It's actually quite mature. Nothing like the Apple watch SDK, which was just incredibly janky at launch
00:10:43 ◼ ► They're taking it extremely seriously and like everybody was involved in making this SDK
00:10:48 ◼ ► It wasn't just an SDK in a box that now has to start talking to other teams across Apple to make it fully functional
00:10:56 ◼ ► Yeah, and I think that comparing and contrasting with the watch is really interesting. I I
00:11:07 ◼ ► Was the pressure of we need to prove to the world we can launch a new thing after Steve Jobs has gone
00:11:19 ◼ ► I think it's questionable and every time I mention it I kind of lean towards yes that they should have waited one more year
00:11:25 ◼ ► Just both the hardware and software wise and every time I mentioned it. There's a couple of people out there. I swear to God
00:11:31 ◼ ► If you're listening to this episode people who still have their original Apple watch say they still using it
00:11:39 ◼ ► And they still like it and I'm like, that's crazy. Yeah. Congrats to you. You're getting your money's worth out of that watch
00:11:45 ◼ ► Hold and at this point definitely hold on till series 9 or whatever's coming out. So don't yeah build upgrade now
00:11:54 ◼ ► I bought my original and used and and maybe not still using it now, but used it for years and really liked it
00:12:02 ◼ ► But the biggest problem as we're talking about software was that the watch kit they made available to third-party developers
00:12:09 ◼ ► was entirely different from the SD from the API's that Apple itself was using to make the first-party apps on the watch and
00:12:31 ◼ ► Yeah, yeah, and it was carplay for your wrist, right? Yeah. Yeah, it's sort of dreamed the interface. Yeah, but with at least carplay
00:12:44 ◼ ► Even if it had worked or a very limited idea, even if it had worked perfectly and every watch developer
00:12:50 ◼ ► I know I'll watch OS developer pulled out their hair because that it it would just indeterminately
00:12:57 ◼ ► Communicate between the phone and watch or not. And if the whole watch had worked like that, there's nobody would have bought it
00:13:03 ◼ ► It would have been a disaster and then rewall then why didn't Apple give developers access to the same API's they use because it was so
00:13:30 ◼ ► If anything they should have done differently is maybe launched the first one when they did this
00:13:36 ◼ ► 2014 announcement 2015 ship but do what they did with the iPhone and wait a year to have any
00:13:46 ◼ ► It is very I even checked and asked obviously there are private API's that only Apple can use on all platforms even the Mac
00:13:54 ◼ ► But the apps that they're encouraging developers to make today for vision OS are using the same
00:14:09 ◼ ► We are there going to be killer third-party apps right on day one. Maybe I it doesn't need it. I don't know
00:14:26 ◼ ► Yeah, I mean, I think that the overall like the price will which one I'm sure we'll talk about. Hmm
00:14:31 ◼ ► Well, I think the price definitely telegraphs that you're going to see applications that are aimed at the enterprise
00:14:44 ◼ ► early screenshots of in the SDK that people are building are probably from the community of developers that generally write
00:14:50 ◼ ► Consumer level apps right like we're seeing a lot of consumer touch points like hey James Thompson's writing PC
00:14:56 ◼ ► Cal right for for vision. What does that look like? What does it calculator feel like in 3d?
00:15:03 ◼ ► and that's lovely to see them all experiment with this stuff, but I think that the price and the
00:15:08 ◼ ► analyst expected ship rates of this thing are all pointing to the fact that Apple is aiming this at the enterprise and at education at a
00:15:18 ◼ ► cadre of people that we are really not seeing those demonstrations from publicly like I've talked I've started talked to some people privately where
00:15:29 ◼ ► Electrical engineering design or in 3d design started talking to like Disney a little bit about it
00:15:41 ◼ ► They use 3d VR and in sight line planning and in sight planning because it allows them to exist on a site as a guest
00:15:47 ◼ ► Before grounds even broken and there's definitely going to be some use cases there that we're gonna see
00:16:04 ◼ ► It's actually really vital and interesting and we can integrate into our workflow and then we'll have to kind of wait a couple of iterations
00:16:21 ◼ ► We call the things on Mastodon if right after the keynote if you'd asked I wish I'd done a poll
00:16:26 ◼ ► Before the keynote is the price gonna come in over it over or under the three thousand rumor
00:16:37 ◼ ► Everything we've learned since to me make sense and I think I think it all comes down to the fact
00:16:56 ◼ ► Incredibly advanced they're they're stunning and by all accounts. I've seen they're so severely
00:17:14 ◼ ► Stating this authoritative lease. I think they're made by Sony and Sony's involved in some way
00:17:27 ◼ ► but through the supply that that seems to be that's one of the numbers bandied about that that they can only
00:17:37 ◼ ► They're only going to be able to make a million of these displays which would mean at best half a million units
00:17:44 ◼ ► Because you need to per unit. So let's double that. Let's say it's two million displays and then
00:17:50 ◼ ► one million units, but that's the doesn't matter whether it costs a thousand dollars or
00:18:10 ◼ ► There's only a million of them and I think what we're seeing is what we saw literally when we when we tried it
00:18:37 ◼ ► incredible the amount of camera coverage this factor that factor the other factor this is the minimum viable experience going forward and
00:18:59 ◼ ► And I think that's that's compounded when you think about yield rates right that the rationale for this
00:19:11 ◼ ► Limited of course by production and how many people on earth can actually make a display this high resolution
00:19:20 ◼ ► It's yield is a huge problem for VR headset screens because dead pixels are an enormous
00:19:34 ◼ ► Millimeters from your eye right or centimeters in some cases and I think that is a it's a huge problem
00:19:44 ◼ ► I'm sure meta has a ton of quests going back for dead pixels for anybody that recognizes it or sees a floaty and
00:19:53 ◼ ► Asked hey, what is this and then finally gets to the bottom of it if they're not technical
00:19:57 ◼ ► They may not know what that is or what the problem is and I'm sure those headsets go back and it's a huge problem
00:20:02 ◼ ► So yield is gonna be a big big big problem given how many pixels sir how many picture elements there are in each of these panels?
00:20:09 ◼ ► I'm assuming that they are making enormous panels of this stuff and then cutting out just the bits that work
00:20:16 ◼ ► Right, and and that's probably not 100% or anywhere near it. So that's probably a huge issue. I
00:20:23 ◼ ► Wonder so my guess is that for most of next year this device is going to be backordered, right?
00:20:29 ◼ ► So the knee-jerk reaction Apple announces this at the keynote three weeks ago and the price here's the price
00:20:41 ◼ ► but if they had said fifteen hundred dollars, which we now know is unrealistic, but if they had people would have
00:20:53 ◼ ► Steve Jobs says and starts at 499 and I remember I was in the room at the Yerba Buena theater
00:21:00 ◼ ► It was perhaps the biggest applause line of the whole thing. It was the crowd just went nuts and again
00:21:07 ◼ ► It's the media people didn't because they were all typing but the Apple people who were in the audience went nuts because they didn't know the
00:21:15 ◼ ► I the knee-jerk reappl announces it 3500 and the knee-jerk reaction in the commentariat is apples out of their mind
00:21:23 ◼ ► This is way too expensive blah blah blah and in the meantime, I'm pretty sure at at this price
00:21:33 ◼ ► They're gonna be selling them as fast as they can make them. I think they probably could
00:21:46 ◼ ► One of the things people don't realize about Apple with pricing and if you it's not complicated
00:22:06 ◼ ► Especially the the trash can Mac Pro which stayed for years after it was technically relevant and they stopped updating it
00:22:36 ◼ ► In between they said they more or less told us they were gonna do an iMac Pro without a quite saying they're like
00:22:43 ◼ ► We have it a vision for an iMac for pros and we were like is it gonna be called the iMac Pro and they're like
00:23:00 ◼ ► But they didn't because that price is the part of the brand of Mac Pro and they wanted that price to still be there
00:23:08 ◼ ► When the new Mac Pro came out. Mm-hmm. I mean famously the Apple discount saying right?
00:23:16 ◼ ► Almost everybody famously knows this right but like literally there's a list of retailers in the
00:23:22 ◼ ► Whatever universe like retailer universe was calling. Let's call it premium label, right? I don't want to use
00:23:29 ◼ ► Luxury because I don't think Apple positions themselves as a luxury brand even though their pricing very much sometimes says otherwise
00:23:44 ◼ ► Peloton has maybe fallen out of favor Canada goose like you have you have like certain brands that are like this is the price
00:23:50 ◼ ► We don't do sales. We don't do discounts. Like if you find an Hermes less than retail you're like is this fufu?
00:23:58 ◼ ► This is yeah, like this is real because it almost immediately right and like if you see an Apple discount over like
00:24:04 ◼ ► $100 for school back to school. Here's your hundred dollars if you find it a discount deeper than that
00:24:11 ◼ ► Yeah, right and like I think that's that's something that people have to acknowledge when it comes to the pricing
00:24:16 ◼ ► They view the price as the price and if they were to have discounted the trash can Pro after they said hey
00:24:32 ◼ ► And they and they want that price to still be sitting there for when the new thing comes out
00:24:40 ◼ ► I really do think they could sell it for double the price I and I says if I'm right about how constrained that the screens
00:24:46 ◼ ► Are they could easily double the price to seven thousand dollars and still sell every one they they can make?
00:24:51 ◼ ► but they I don't think they want to do that because they want to be able to say that when the
00:25:02 ◼ ► That it'll start at thirty five hundred dollars or maybe maybe then it'll come to overtime. It will come down to three thousand or
00:25:14 ◼ ► But they're they're not going to sell the first one for seven thousand and then say the second one
00:25:18 ◼ ► Okay, now it can be thirty five hundred dollars because we can make more of them because then it looks like they've discounted it
00:25:33 ◼ ► based on supply demand if you just called an economist in and said what should you charge for this an
00:25:45 ◼ ► Apple's estimates for how many of these screens they're gonna be able to obtain an economist might say this should be fifteen thousand dollars
00:25:56 ◼ ► But that's that's how supply and demand works when you can't get it. It will become at some point
00:26:10 ◼ ► As fast as they want to as an iPhone panel or whatever right exactly so they can make as many iPhones as they're seemingly is
00:26:41 ◼ ► Telling us in the future there will be other products in the vision lineup that are not Pro and
00:26:48 ◼ ► Therefore less expensive. I let's just say the vision air. I don't sure yeah. Yeah, I think this yeah
00:26:56 ◼ ► But I think some people are just that maybe but like just because they're calling it the Pro doesn't mean that
00:27:05 ◼ ► No that means that they're creating a pricing umbrella, and then they can fill in under the umbrella with devices
00:27:12 ◼ ► That I feel are probably the here's here's what I think they've established with the Apple vision Pro the baseline
00:27:36 ◼ ► If you want to call it spatial computing fine, that's apples buzzword, but we'll all adopt it eventually
00:27:43 ◼ ► So they might as well start, but like if you want to say what's the baseline for an MBE for spatial computing?
00:27:49 ◼ ► This is what it is now the baseline for other parts of the experience like hey should the battery be external
00:27:57 ◼ ► No, should it only last two hours no right like there are certain things that can be and should be and will be improved and most
00:28:07 ◼ ► But as far as what's an MBE you need to have displays that are this resolution in order to render text properly
00:28:45 ◼ ► They are not gonna dip below this line in terms of those key things. They've put a pin in the map
00:28:53 ◼ ► Where they need to go with this kind of thing and then everything else will be lateral from there or up. Yep
00:29:14 ◼ ► Price differential would be that's probably about right, but that min that that vision pro air
00:29:33 ◼ ► It's not gonna have visible pixels because the screens aren't as high resolution. It's certainly not gonna lower the latency
00:29:40 ◼ ► Right, right. I'd say hey, it's this 2000. It's only $2,000 but you get sick. Yeah, like they're not gonna do that, right?
00:29:48 ◼ ► It's like oh, it's only $2,000, but you can't read text. You can only look at pictures. It's like no, that's it
00:29:53 ◼ ► That's not what they've established now. I don't know what else it would take to get there
00:29:57 ◼ ► But those are the it's like you said it's like that's the stake in the ground. This is the minimum viable
00:30:03 ◼ ► Experience. I love that term, but that's exactly what they've and they tried to I think they tried their best
00:30:08 ◼ ► And if you listen to what they said in the keynote and what they've what they're putting out on the website
00:30:14 ◼ ► It seems to be they're trying to cram it through everybody's heads. That's that's what they're saying and pricing thing is interesting because I think
00:30:21 ◼ ► Everything you've said is exactly unlike Pete. Some people don't really didn't really parse the pro thing
00:30:32 ◼ ► Audience limited to some degree like Apple has never introduced a pro device and said this is for everyone
00:30:41 ◼ ► We've jokingly you and I have heard Phil Schiller say everybody should buy whatever. Yeah, that's that's very on brand
00:30:55 ◼ ► in the grand scheme of things they know like these are inherently devices that are for a
00:31:24 ◼ ► and the fact of the matter is as much jokey jokes as they were about the price really on what I like to do is
00:31:40 ◼ ► Whatever about their new announcement like if it's in a new version of iOS or new iPhone and like this is non-scientific
00:31:52 ◼ ► Subreddit for Apple stuff and I just like to see what the memes are like. What is the what is the like the social consensus?
00:31:59 ◼ ► Around these types of things and I know that there are like firms that will do all this
00:32:03 ◼ ► I'm sure Apple does an enormous amount of this or pays somebody to do it, but I don't get access to that data
00:32:09 ◼ ► So I just do my little looky-loo and like the fact of the matter is all the memes that I see about vision pro are
00:32:14 ◼ ► Now like the pricing is involved because like how can you not like say it's a $3500 weird headset thing. That's normal
00:32:25 ◼ ► I'm sure Apple expected it but the memes are like I paid $3500 so that I could experience like
00:32:34 ◼ ► It's like a video cut out of a wrap around video experience that they showed in the keynote
00:32:39 ◼ ► with like Prince playing live at the Super Bowl 3 coming down and like that it's it's that layer of like
00:32:46 ◼ ► Acceptance of the price and internalization and then it's sort of a weird social rationalization of what it would take
00:32:56 ◼ ► Those kinds of things are actually real like they do sink into your skin and they get into you
00:33:02 ◼ ► Like there's a reason influencers are called influencers, right? Like we are as a human
00:33:19 ◼ ► I don't ever I've never heard anybody say anything about steak that that tells me whether to like my steak rare or not
00:33:28 ◼ ► You should probably not overcook your steak and it'll taste a lot better like there's there's just the normal social signals that we all get
00:33:35 ◼ ► And so I like to look at those and parse those in terms of their announcements and to me
00:33:38 ◼ ► The way that the vision Pro is being like sort of embedded in the consciousness is this thing is expensive
00:33:47 ◼ ► Experiences for the right the right thing that touches me and that moves me or whatever now
00:33:53 ◼ ► That's the consumer view right not the enterprise view which me and by and large the initial wave of this is gonna be largely
00:34:03 ◼ ► And I think it means that people have internalized the price and that it was actually not that high at all
00:34:12 ◼ ► But I actually think it was probably priced correctly for the market and most people are probably not that worried about it
00:34:19 ◼ ► In other words, it wasn't a big debacle of a price even though it was higher than we expected
00:34:45 ◼ ► That that one example they shouldn't a keynote where they had I don't know if it was actually f1
00:35:02 ◼ ► But somebody told me that when Eddie Q who obviously knows his shit about f1 took that part of the demo
00:35:15 ◼ ► It was and the things I saw it's that it and like you said about like Disney Imagineers testing sight lines or anything
00:35:30 ◼ ► If you're designing devices or hardware a lot of designers, I'm sure Disney designers do it
00:35:42 ◼ ► Who hasn't anybody who's even vaguely interested in cars has seen like just a clay model of a life-size car that they score
00:35:49 ◼ ► Right, so they could just sort of see everything and you need to see it and and you need to see it at scale
00:36:07 ◼ ► Design type things architecture. I mean because that's the other thing it's not just the putting an object in front of you
00:36:38 ◼ ► And so it will fill in the details like you talk about a car designer working in clay, obviously
00:36:49 ◼ ► Experience and skill and like filling in those gaps and all of that stuff. There's like a concept called edge induction. That is about like
00:37:02 ◼ ► It allows us to like a distinguish objects in like really dim light like our brain fills in a lot of detail
00:37:09 ◼ ► Based on just shading right and like that that idea that we were we are able to sort of infer
00:37:22 ◼ ► That's just a sketch or just an outline or just a rough mock or or an early poly model of something
00:37:31 ◼ ► but the fact is is like accelerating that and enhancing that by providing somebody with like
00:37:41 ◼ ► even more progress even quicker right and get there faster and all of that and that accelerant is
00:37:48 ◼ ► Exactly why people are so like a hypey typey about AI right? It's like it's not the AI is essentially plagiarism currently
00:37:58 ◼ ► But it is an accelerant right in any end of the day a broadly applicable accelerant. It's like the discovery of gasoline
00:38:20 ◼ ► enterprise people are sort of kind of jazzed on this thing because it's an accelerant to the design process or or
00:38:42 ◼ ► And I really I think for like business travel. It's it really is gonna be super compelling
00:39:04 ◼ ► That you most are interested in on a plane you save up like garbage movies or TV shows like that
00:39:32 ◼ ► to combine that with the work angle to justify like having your work buy it for you for business travel so that you can
00:39:44 ◼ ► simulated 30-inch Mac display in front of you to do work or to do your work in vision OS which I think is
00:39:58 ◼ ► Their email and the messaging and the reading they need to do if you're doing that on an iPad
00:40:04 ◼ ► Then you definitely gonna be able to do it in vision OS except better because everything's gonna be bigger and every I mean
00:40:11 ◼ ► It's it's real. It's not just personal preference. There are it's so I've never seen a human factors
00:40:17 ◼ ► Exercise that doesn't show that having more bigger visual real estate in front of you doesn't make people more productive
00:40:25 ◼ ► Mm-hmm. Yeah and being able to take it take that desk with you and take that work with you
00:40:34 ◼ ► Have worked at corporation scale or large scale businesses or enterprise at the enterprise level
00:40:46 ◼ ► So this is an extreme luxury purchase for you. There's zero shame in that be honest with yourself
00:40:50 ◼ ► Don't buy it right but you you also can be it could affect your perception of the price and a perception of the investment
00:41:02 ◼ ► larger with multiple screens open or whatever is a difference in hundreds of thousands of dollars in productivity or work or
00:41:18 ◼ ► Formizing privacy or security like as an example because people looking over your shoulder looking at your like P&L or whatever
00:41:26 ◼ ► I've been like shit who's looking at me and I can't I gotta angle it this way and like like this portion of it
00:41:31 ◼ ► I can't let anybody see out of respect for the privacy of the company etc. But like if you're able to do that viably
00:41:41 ◼ ► Yeah, and I think that's that individual use case of just plain work that Apple spent so much time on in the keynote
00:41:54 ◼ ► But I think that getting your company to pay for it for you because you're able to say hey I can work with
00:42:05 ◼ ► Continuously and I fly back and forth to China a lot for manufacturing or I fly coast to coast a lot in the US
00:42:16 ◼ ► Company data and work with that and be productive. I mean, that's a write-off, you know, am I imagining this?
00:42:25 ◼ ► But I think that they you can buy like polarizing screens for laptops to like make them more private
00:42:31 ◼ ► You absolutely can't yeah, they require my wife has one on her phone. I don't know why I was laughing about it
00:42:36 ◼ ► But you know, frankly it probably does protect her against shoulder surfing and stuff a little bit more
00:42:41 ◼ ► But you if you're off access axis, excuse right a bit to the screen it pretty much goes black
00:42:47 ◼ ► And so these things do exist and but the fact it doesn't stop any from buddy behind you
00:43:02 ◼ ► Maybe even company mandated in like if they're in business class or if they're in first class or even if they're in premium economy
00:43:12 ◼ ► I think you end up seeing that a lot these days and let's the fact is that data is power and
00:43:16 ◼ ► Data is actually a really important thing to companies and data privacy is huge. So I would underestimate that angle
00:43:27 ◼ ► I mean there's I was gonna I was thinking like HIPAA stuff for everybody in the medical community
00:43:32 ◼ ► That's probably what your life is is dealing with. But yeah, I mean just just financial data, right?
00:43:38 ◼ ► I mean and think about Apple employees right like how he can't like look at pictures of the products you're working on
00:43:52 ◼ ► So anyway, let me take a break here thing our next sponsor and it is fuel for this episode quite literally coursing through my veins
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00:46:41 ◼ ► I asked my live show how early is early in Mike Rockwell said early so I don't think we're looking
00:46:48 ◼ ► I don't think we're looking at like the end of May right before WWDC next year. Technically early is what June 15. So yeah
00:46:55 ◼ ► Maybe Q2 I wouldn't be surprised if it's if we're wearing winter coats on the East Coast when it comes out, but
00:47:13 ◼ ► And it didn't ship until the very end of June. So about six months and so there's a similar period of time
00:47:27 ◼ ► And to me the one thing that really it's very obvious, but I think it's very interesting looking at people's reaction is
00:47:43 ◼ ► there's iconic pictures of Steve Jobs holding the iPhone that he I guess he had in his pocket the whole time while he was talking to
00:47:50 ◼ ► The screen I don't even think the screen was on he just holding up the device and the device itself
00:47:55 ◼ ► Was incredibly unlike every other phone anybody had seen right and then when he announced when they announced the iPhone
00:48:07 ◼ ► $30 for when they renewed their cell contract with singular or Verizon or whoever they were with and it may not have been a
00:48:15 ◼ ► $30 device, but it was subsidized. Maybe it was $100 from Nokia, but it was just something
00:48:25 ◼ ► traditional numeric keypad and it was something you used primarily to make phone calls or
00:48:36 ◼ ► This just looking at the iPhone hardware looked like neither of those things it was right and it didn't look like an iPod
00:48:44 ◼ ► It didn't look like anything else just without even turning the screen on looked very different
00:48:51 ◼ ► Just looking at it putting aside the eyesight feature just because I don't think that's I don't think the eyesight feature is
00:49:01 ◼ ► Major I don't it's certainly not the reason to get a vision Pro as opposed to a quest 3 or anybody else's product
00:49:25 ◼ ► Commentary about it is just sort of like what just treating it like all the other headsets on the market because at a fundamental level
00:49:32 ◼ ► It just looks like the other headsets, right? Right. It's not like it has gills or something, right?
00:49:37 ◼ ► And they're like, oh my god gills. It's like oh, we've seen this thing before right? We've seen this this category before
00:49:47 ◼ ► Where there were other smart watches which look very similar. They kind of had a screen of some sort and
00:49:53 ◼ ► They've strapped on your wrist. I mean, what's one more is there to a right, right? Yeah, it's a rounder rounder rectangle maker
00:50:21 ◼ ► Honestly you and I didn't see them in person because they work functioning and I don't think they are functioning correctly
00:50:27 ◼ ► No, I mean, I think they work like they work in a lab, but they weren't comfortable showing people live
00:50:41 ◼ ► Maybe a little bit in your interview, but it is quite a bit more complex than a screen. Oh, yeah, that was just a screen
00:50:48 ◼ ► Oh, yeah, that was it. What's it called? Recticular renticular? Yeah, lenticular lenticular lenticular lenticular display
00:50:55 ◼ ► Yeah, and lenticular for people that don't know is like basically just to be simple to simplify it
00:51:06 ◼ ► that allows you to sort of look at things from a different angles like those little cards that you get for
00:51:11 ◼ ► Promotion or as a toy like a pog or something that has a little image on it and you tilt it and you see one
00:51:16 ◼ ► Image from one angle another image from another angle, right? And if you strip off the intermediary layer
00:51:30 ◼ ► so that they're interlaced and then when you put the lens on top you can see one image this way and another image the other
00:51:52 ◼ ► Appear as if they are looking at you right there even when they look at you if looking at you
00:52:01 ◼ ► It's that they look like they're at the right depth behind the glass and if you are looking at you
00:52:08 ◼ ► So if right if there's if you're wearing the vision Pro headset and there's three people in front of you one dead center
00:52:17 ◼ ► If you look at the person on your left the person on the right will be able to see that you're looking at the person
00:52:31 ◼ ► Painted on the surface of loading out in front. Yeah, and like googly eyes on the end of the glass, right? And
00:52:38 ◼ ► That that was the context of my question to Rockwell on my show was that I can I could understand how that
00:52:44 ◼ ► How they did it so that if you're standing right in front of me how it could look natural
00:52:49 ◼ ► But it didn't make sense to me how it would look right from the side and that's where this lenticular
00:52:58 ◼ ► Clearly distinguishes the vision Pro but it's such an it and it must add some degree of expense to the product
00:53:11 ◼ ► But it's impossible to translate if you're not looking at it in person, right? And it is really interesting that it's really
00:53:38 ◼ ► That you don't see the eyes on your goggle. That's the person walking back to the restroom that says
00:53:44 ◼ ► Oh, there's a guy with the vision Pro and see that you and you look up and you're like, yeah
00:53:52 ◼ ► Yeah, that is really affordance is interesting because like the importance for you is the pass-through right like yeah, so I get them people roach
00:54:03 ◼ ► I guess that's that's and I was very skeptical that they were gonna do these I things and one of the
00:54:09 ◼ ► Was they obviously most of the over thousands of people who've been working on this at Apple
00:54:19 ◼ ► I mean people who were working on the software side of things had no idea that this feature existed the the
00:54:29 ◼ ► So the hats off whoever whoever spilled the beans on that to Gurman and the guy at the information had it to Wayne mom
00:54:40 ◼ ► There were very few people who knew about this feature before that was announced at the keynote. It doesn't work
00:54:54 ◼ ► You can see there are apparently since the keynote people who were walking around wearing it
00:55:05 ◼ ► I guess it is it did one of the reasons I was skeptical it obviously adds to the cost because you've got now
00:55:12 ◼ ► Because if you delete that screen, that's just less money. You have to spend making the thing it adds to the battery
00:55:56 ◼ ► Having somebody like look at me like hey is does this guy have that fancy new Apple headset it?
00:56:06 ◼ ► Yeah, I mean, I think like I think that it's a fits in with the philosophy of the whole thing
00:56:11 ◼ ► Which is the lack of isolation right and if you want to eliminate or reduce isolation in VR
00:56:18 ◼ ► You sort of have to have a two-way pathway in part the other half of that pathway is people to you
00:56:23 ◼ ► Right you two people is great being able to see your surroundings and not be surprised by somebody walking up on you
00:56:29 ◼ ► Or being able to like turn and acknowledge somebody or whatever. That's all fine and dandy but like humans require two-way communication
00:56:45 ◼ ► You're you're not getting that that spark that happens with D2 humans looking each other in the eye
00:56:55 ◼ ► I think it is about two-way communication. It is about reducing isolation and eliminating the awkwardness of having this thing
00:57:01 ◼ ► And I'll have to see whether that plays out in reality, but I think that's definitely the the aim of it
00:57:16 ◼ ► but you know that it's a place where you if you own one you would I certainly would use it and
00:57:27 ◼ ► Where it's like even if you're fully immersed if a if a human approaches you they sort of fade into your view
00:57:40 ◼ ► It's like the the real-life person in the room around you coming at you that the devices cameras
00:57:49 ◼ ► Looking out at the real world around you even if you're not using them to show your world like so you're on an airplane
00:57:58 ◼ ► Area to be the peak of Mount Hood because I don't want to look like I'm in a aluminum Boeing 737
00:58:07 ◼ ► but a real flight attendant is approaching you to see if you would like a beverage or whatever as
00:58:22 ◼ ► You'll you'll see that person sort of fade in and closer they get and I think the longer they look at you the more
00:58:31 ◼ ► Sort of appear like a Jedi ghost and life at life-size at the right exact field of view
00:58:37 ◼ ► Where if you lifted the headset up, they would be their face would be exactly where they faded in in your virtual view
00:58:45 ◼ ► That's super useful because and I'm not it you've used VR way more than me. My son has a couple of the headsets
00:59:03 ◼ ► knowing from when I've gone into his bedroom when he's playing these games the the ID the immersion and the
00:59:11 ◼ ► It's it's always it's horrible because I know it's gonna shock him and I come up and he won't hear me cuz he's got headphones
00:59:20 ◼ ► Yeah, he's neck deep in zombies right and the hair like touching the mother solar, right? And even after the
00:59:37 ◼ ► But no matter how kind you're trying to be there's no easy way to break them through it is it's a it's a legitimate problem
01:00:00 ◼ ► But there is a deep animal thing about humans that makes them unwilling to block a major
01:00:27 ◼ ► psychological adjustment that didn't go under and if you do cover your eyes and are unable to see the world around you and you're used to
01:00:40 ◼ ► Right that builds and builds and builds over time until you're like, I gotta get this thing off
01:00:46 ◼ ► I gotta like smell and see and dazed and like you do all the things so that I know where I am and what's around me
01:00:51 ◼ ► Etc. So there's that animal brain thing where it's like if you can't see you're gonna die
01:01:01 ◼ ► Right and like that is what is the wave that builds and builds until it crests you're like
01:01:15 ◼ ► Whatever like I'm setting that aside, but in terms of likes periods of sustained work or productivity
01:01:21 ◼ ► They needed to solve that problem very thoroughly if they expect people to go in there and work
01:01:27 ◼ ► Right for an hour or two or three or four plugged in whatever you've got to solve that problem. You cannot
01:01:34 ◼ ► Expect people to go into those worlds and like put up Mount Hood and never see anybody approach or I'll be unable to turn off
01:01:42 ◼ ► Mount Hood when they feel uncomfortable and immediately get relief without having to take the thing off
01:01:51 ◼ ► You turn your dial on the headset and that dial dials back to the opacity so to speak or the the immersiveness
01:01:57 ◼ ► It actually doesn't just do opacity. It shrinks right your worldview down and allows you to see what's really around you
01:02:17 ◼ ► Now people who have anybody who's been using this stuff for a long time will tell you. Oh, yeah, it's a real thing
01:02:26 ◼ ► But Apple does obviously and they've put a lot of work into sort of solving that yeah, and I think it sort of gets to
01:02:39 ◼ ► I side-to-side doesn't look that different than other headsets, but Apple's ambition here is so much broader than that. It's almost
01:03:17 ◼ ► Which is what blackberries and the phones of that era really were like nobody has any fondness or thinks
01:03:39 ◼ ► Envisioning here is a way. It's not just a front end to like a launcher for different experiences
01:03:46 ◼ ► They've they've come up with a concept for the equivalent of like our desktop in the Mac
01:04:13 ◼ ► You'll be able to open windows and put them here and it doesn't matter whether it's a web browser or a notes app
01:04:24 ◼ ► And then here's the metaphor for how you'll be able to move them around and rearrange this work
01:04:46 ◼ ► Because the iPad and and it it's a very hard problem to solve that they still haven't solved
01:04:51 ◼ ► But basically at one level you just want one app and have it take up the whole screen like it does on the iPhone
01:04:59 ◼ ► But I kind of want to do two or three things at once and I splurged on the 12.9 inch iPad Pro
01:05:16 ◼ ► It's a great feature and I know some people love it, but very few iPad users work that way
01:05:29 ◼ ► Palette in front of you as big as this can be and this can be so much bigger than even the biggest most
01:05:36 ◼ ► Desktop displays you can put in front of you if you get three Pro display XDRs. It's pretty
01:05:42 ◼ ► Putting aside how many 6k displays your Mac can actually push the pixels to you're just running out of physical desk space
01:06:25 ◼ ► Idiomatic user interface. This is how your app will fit into the broader world of vision OS and computing
01:06:33 ◼ ► I don't none of the other headsets have anything like that. They're they just don't have the ambition to have
01:06:46 ◼ ► Yeah, I don't think so. I mean like there's certainly like big screen or another one of the other desktop or
01:06:51 ◼ ► Theater type apps like they they built those paradigms in on an app level right like so you can launch an app
01:06:58 ◼ ► That's for work right and like have virtual desktops right there. There are a few of those out there that'll that work
01:07:06 ◼ ► But they obviously don't work in any real terms because of the resolution of the screens right so that they're hamstrung by the function of it
01:07:18 ◼ ► Like all the existing ones are built around the app paradigm, but really games right like let's all be honest
01:07:26 ◼ ► Apple leaning into the work paradigm as like the the base experience that is expected to be viable and
01:07:34 ◼ ► To create there. There's a term in I don't know if it's I don't know if it's just related to gaming but
01:07:45 ◼ ► this system of elemental powers that you have that you use for your characters and that's like
01:07:54 ◼ ► But they have these things called verbs and verbs are like hey when you do something when you do X it creates X effect
01:08:04 ◼ ► Long term effects and short term effects and these things are working and I think in it's a good try
01:08:08 ◼ ► I don't know. Maybe I'm just like ignorant and maybe this is already there's already a term for this in in OS design or in UI
01:08:18 ◼ ► sketching out a framework of verbs for everyone like if you want X to happen if you want this verb to happen like you want this
01:08:28 ◼ ► them leaning into the work paradigm and like setting everything up in that arena, I think is
01:08:40 ◼ ► They're building a landscape for you to verb on top of like verb to your heart's content
01:08:58 ◼ ► Right, like there's a genuine framework here for experiences that encompass the entire thing and you can work within that
01:09:06 ◼ ► Like a big Apple I think the SDK SDK the way it lays it out is like there's three or four different kinds of
01:09:25 ◼ ► Allow you like multiple pathways to explore like an immersive app might be a game, right?
01:09:30 ◼ ► So that's a verb but a windowed app is like hey, maybe your app has multiple windows that present things in a different way spatially
01:09:37 ◼ ► Maybe they interrelate and work together. They don't but they don't have to be like an app in a box
01:09:47 ◼ ► Relatively new I think opened in last year. It's one of my favorite pizza places here in Philadelphia
01:09:57 ◼ ► It's just good New York style pizza here in Philly and it's a nice little restaurant - it's good for takeout
01:10:07 ◼ ► They have a TV hooked up with an Atari 2600. So you just sit there and play and it just occurred to me. It's like funny
01:10:16 ◼ ► There was no obviously operating system, right? It's like right. So how do you switch games?
01:10:21 ◼ ► You actually take cartridge and physically put the cartridge in and turn it back on and then you turn it off and just get static
01:10:32 ◼ ► Obviously game consoles have evolved and you don't you don't you don't put cartridges or discs in anymore
01:10:38 ◼ ► you mean you can but there is an operating system on the PlayStation and an Xbox and the switch and
01:10:47 ◼ ► Carry that the Sony one feels very Sony the switch one definitely feels Nintendo II, right?
01:10:53 ◼ ► There's a very very Nintendo vibe just to the operating system of the switch and they all have web browsers now
01:11:00 ◼ ► Which is technically you could do work, right? So you can like open a web browser on Xbox or open it on switch
01:11:22 ◼ ► That's that's not what people buy these things for it's it's not I'm not complaining about it
01:11:27 ◼ ► It's not a limitation, but it's primarily there basically so you can launch a game and the game takes over the screen
01:11:33 ◼ ► Mm-hmm, and that's to me is what the other VR headsets are like they're they're like game consoles in a headset
01:12:00 ◼ ► Interesting. I'm gonna use that term very specifically the most interesting interface work in game consoles
01:12:07 ◼ ► I think has come from the Xbox. I don't know that they've all been successful or usable
01:12:12 ◼ ► Cooper, you know, whatever like they they have missed on execution in a variety of ways on Xbox over the years
01:12:42 ◼ ► Multiple applications running at once just suspended like instant switch between games and things like that
01:12:51 ◼ ► Unfortunately, very like archaic and I it's the platform I use the most but I think Xbox has done the best in this
01:13:10 ◼ ► I think they act the way the Xbox - has evolved over the years has been really interesting to me
01:13:15 ◼ ► And I think they have the best sort of paradigm for like look you're a gamer and you want to play games
01:13:28 ◼ ► You may get notifications from your friends and have like popovers that like engage you engage with them
01:13:37 ◼ ► And now you're playing the game and pop out the cartridge and I play a different game and like that that idea of this
01:13:51 ◼ ► Consoles or world of Xbox but then it's leeching into other arenas and some of this is the windowed paradise
01:14:01 ◼ ► Right. It's a lot of it's a lot of non modal interfaces that allow you to do multiple things or see multiple things at once
01:14:12 ◼ ► Like just we're used to computers right and like that paradigm and so you're able to layer on
01:14:17 ◼ ► New ones on top of it and I think spatial computing is very interesting to me as a concept because it layers in
01:14:42 ◼ ► With and then there's a fourth thing layer behind that which is the world like real life
01:14:48 ◼ ► Right layered behind that and I think it's a very interesting thing that we're seeing develop here
01:14:55 ◼ ► massively because I think if you introduce this kind of thing a few years ago and you're just sort of like
01:15:07 ◼ ► And the fact is is that most VR headsets have essentially one modal popover that will will give you like oh you're in a game
01:15:13 ◼ ► You're in an experience. Oh, press a button and now you're looking at the thing, right?
01:15:30 ◼ ► Very much. All right. Let me take a break here and thank our next sponsors are good friends at
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01:17:34 ◼ ► Not even in the rumors. I don't and I'm not quite sure that we've really come to grips with it
01:17:53 ◼ ► Chips, they pick a letter and then each generation gets a new integer behind it. They don't do it lightly
01:18:12 ◼ ► I think are the ones for like proximity or something or maybe the one it still gets a digit
01:18:27 ◼ ► Think and again, they're they're they're not spilling the beans on it because it's sort of it's not even secret per se
01:18:36 ◼ ► Explaining how it works. But the way I understand it is it's sort of two computers in one
01:18:51 ◼ ► So you're using Apple notes and Apple mail their apps running on the m2 and it's the m2 that's running
01:19:03 ◼ ► just like iPad OS is a version of iOS and tv OS is a derivative of iOS and it shows apps and
01:19:16 ◼ ► They never they never explained they don't even say that the M is what the M is for. I mean and it's good
01:19:26 ◼ ► Now in the vision headset, they've been using them in iPad pros. So it's kind of good that they do M is for magnificent job
01:19:40 ◼ ► Yeah, I could I could see filler jaws saying that for sure. Yeah, that's maybe it's for just but yeah
01:19:46 ◼ ► I think and then the r1 is for all sensors, right? It's for everything else. It's well and where it
01:20:32 ◼ ► And you just ran it through the m2 which is doing the other stuff as well. You don't get there
01:20:37 ◼ ► You don't get you don't get latency you you have more more more latency higher latency, whatever the the adjective is a
01:20:52 ◼ ► I think you'd be able to even people who can tolerate it without any kind of motion sickness
01:21:03 ◼ ► If not, even a headache just sort of it's like holding your breath sort of like eventually you just sort of need a break
01:21:28 ◼ ► I'm sure even in vision no matter how good it actually is next year when it ships. I'm sure I would find it more pleasant to
01:21:59 ◼ ► Gets there with their headsets without without having silicon like this like the fact that the quest 3 is running a snapdragon
01:22:06 ◼ ► Whatever. Let's just say it's the best snapdragon. They could possibly get for running that hey, I don't think that chip is any well
01:22:14 ◼ ► I've and again, I know we're talking $3,500 versus something that's gonna be like $500 but right whatever even putting that aside
01:22:27 ◼ ► So even if you gave Qualcomm all the credit in a world and said that this snapdragon is peer-for-peer
01:22:33 ◼ ► Just as good as an m2 which it's not but let's just say that it is that still doesn't get that headset
01:22:41 ◼ ► To this sort of experience because it doesn't have anything like the r1 and the real-time operating system
01:22:55 ◼ ► Know if that's possible to say definitively right like I let's say okay. Let me pause the scenario for you
01:23:06 ◼ ► Mark Zuckerberg calls a meeting with all of his top hardware people that run the oculus and says
01:23:12 ◼ ► Apple just absolutely crapped all over the capabilities of our top-end device quest pro or the the
01:23:20 ◼ ► Maximum we could have done or ever did with the rift etc. Like what is what would it take for us to ship something like this?
01:23:44 ◼ ► This is like a company the top of its game engaging every single one of its neurons on this thing, right?
01:23:50 ◼ ► But let's just talk about like the latency and display resolution. I think they could get there plugged in
01:24:01 ◼ ► Not off the shelf but quasi custom in other words they go to arm or somebody or whoever you can say. Hey, could you
01:24:08 ◼ ► Give us a process that does X and they say we can unlock some cores or create some custom instructions and get you that
01:24:24 ◼ ► Like maybe like this is just completely theoretical based on my rough understanding of like capability
01:24:35 ◼ ► Which is it really all about efficiency and I think that it's that power per watt thing that makes this possible in a portable device
01:24:47 ◼ ► Cameras and five sensors and a bunch of microphones and add another processor right like a whole nother one, which wouldn't be
01:25:03 ◼ ► Nobody's got a hold of it and done a x-ray and we'll know eventually right when people do that
01:25:17 ◼ ► Robust power per watt rating right like it probably does all of this shit extremely cheaply from a power perspective
01:25:24 ◼ ► If you X all of that out of the equation, maybe they could get there but it would be tethered to a computer
01:25:38 ◼ ► The time frame that Apple is gonna be announcing the next thing or even the next thing after that, right?
01:25:52 ◼ ► It's not like somebody can't slap another processor into a device like this and get it to do similar tricks. I think is
01:25:59 ◼ ► Once again, I don't know how custom this is. So maybe that's not true. Maybe Apple's done something
01:26:08 ◼ ► But theoretically speaking of the you could put another processor in there in a tethered device
01:26:13 ◼ ► That's not battery-powered and maybe get to a similar capability within a couple of years
01:26:19 ◼ ► Advancements that they've made in the power per watt and the efficiency and all of that that enables them do that in a battery-powered
01:26:50 ◼ ► Dropped some sort of hint on my show that he's been working on something seven eight years
01:26:58 ◼ ► I mean and it wasn't like they hired Mike Rockwell and said what do you what are we gonna have this guy do?
01:27:04 ◼ ► Right, exactly. Yeah, and like they knew they needed it before that so they were working on it even before that
01:27:10 ◼ ► Yeah, but I know people who are hired to this project six seven years ago eight years ago right about there
01:27:14 ◼ ► So but not just him either, you know, it's very very clear that they've for many years five six years
01:27:33 ◼ ► That seems like something that they've been working towards and have invested now years in both the
01:27:39 ◼ ► two operating systems right the the iOS vision OS and the real-time operating system that's running on the r1 and
01:27:59 ◼ ► Pass-through seems like an afterthought on everybody else right like quest to literally just has like black
01:28:08 ◼ ► It's just for like boundary setting right and boundaries and like just emergency like hey quick
01:28:17 ◼ ► Whereas in vision OS putting aside the first run calibration thing when you put it on all you see it first
01:28:59 ◼ ► Yeah, there's two there's two allegories that I think it makes sense here one in computing very simply
01:29:13 ◼ ► I think that's the one thing that everybody's like I gotta have this right once you touch it
01:29:16 ◼ ► You're like Oh crud like holy cow, right, right and of course, that's the enormous amount of effort in a touchscreen that actually functioned correctly
01:29:23 ◼ ► Right in processors that were able to do it in a mobile device on regular battery power blah blah blah blah blah, right?
01:29:35 ◼ ► Right, like it's like you don't realize that you were not getting what you actually expected until they did it and they put an enormous amount
01:29:47 ◼ ► We were so used to zero actually being negative 32 that we didn't realize that we were at negative
01:29:52 ◼ ► So we were like frozen and we're like, oh my god, it's zero like this is what zero feels like, right?
01:30:00 ◼ ► takes a food like a really talented chef will take like a zucchini or a blueberry or whatever it is and
01:30:13 ◼ ► Right, like the most talented chefs realize this like it's not about making a blueberry not taste like a blueberry
01:30:25 ◼ ► People and I work so hard to make this thing feel like what it should feel like like a paint a master painter
01:30:37 ◼ ► And I think that's where they've gone with this is that they put an enormous amount of effort in
01:30:46 ◼ ► Mental anxiety and effort etc. It's a bit to just feel like the world like you put it on you like what?
01:30:55 ◼ ► Exactly, right so you can just go on Amazon and for seven dollars get a pair of like chemistry lab safety goggles
01:31:34 ◼ ► You'd write like that's wouldn't see what people say. Oh, that's a very Apple way to do it or that's an Apple thing
01:31:45 ◼ ► It's like hey an enormous amount of effort by a lot of really telling the people to make a thing feel like it should feel
01:31:51 ◼ ► That's it. Right and and so it gets to like and I still haven't zinged them about it. I'm going to this week
01:31:58 ◼ ► I bet I'm already like weeks late, but Zuckerberg just comments after the keynote leaked and you know
01:32:03 ◼ ► What's he gonna say? I and some to some degree. I'm sympathetic cuz what? Mm-hmm. Did you watch the blackberry movie?
01:32:10 ◼ ► I haven't seen it yet. It's good. I like you though. I think I think everybody you'll like it
01:32:15 ◼ ► It's not great, but it's as good as it should be right. Okay. I can't see how they could like a blackberry, right?
01:32:20 ◼ ► Yeah, exactly. The one thing I did mild spoiler, but obviously it ends with after the the iPhones come out. They don't
01:32:28 ◼ ► Show what's rumored there were reports that like the day or two after the iPhone announcement that the top people
01:32:42 ◼ ► So they must they were like, but it doesn't seem like Apple to fake something and they say they're selling it in six months
01:32:48 ◼ ► But otherwise this doesn't make it doesn't compute that right that they're saying that their phone can do this. I
01:33:00 ◼ ► I don't feel like there's that just shows that to me if that's true that the rim people again
01:33:08 ◼ ► Repenances her name really just couldn't even believe it was true shows how far behind they were
01:33:13 ◼ ► But it's believable in hindsight because they really were that far behind. I don't think Zuckerberg
01:33:24 ◼ ► About like the social aspects for it his comments to to rally the troops were basically
01:33:41 ◼ ► you know and their vision of the metaverse is that you put the headset on and then you go to have a meeting and
01:33:53 ◼ ► All in a virtual place like you're playing playing a game a video game where the game is a meeting
01:34:00 ◼ ► Alright, man, right, but but that's and whereas the Apple but Apple's vision for how you'll socialize
01:34:07 ◼ ► With the headset is the actual socializing with the actual people around you and it's the actual room around you
01:34:15 ◼ ► And it is so in some sense. I I think I think Apple's probably right and Zuckerberg is very wrong
01:34:23 ◼ ► But he he did put his finger on the key difference in where they see it going is is your socialization
01:34:33 ◼ ► Who you could actually reach out and physically actually touch and the actual room you're actually in or is it about an entirely virtual?
01:35:14 ◼ ► But they appear in a window, you know, and they are 3d. It's not just a picture of them
01:35:34 ◼ ► It's very very different at a at a very just first level like a fork in the road like oh
01:35:43 ◼ ► Facebook has spent years down this path of being completely virtual whereas apples very top-level takeaway is
01:35:56 ◼ ► Yeah, I mean the the FaceTime thing would be the exception if you're face timing somebody else with the thing on obviously they're producing like this
01:36:04 ◼ ► Virtual avatar right? Yeah, but not but not pretending that it's the person in front of no, right?
01:36:09 ◼ ► Yeah, and only their face like, you know, like it's a very much like oh, this is a call, right? Right
01:36:17 ◼ ► I don't know which one which one will prove out to be completely right or wrong or whatever
01:36:21 ◼ ► but I think you're dead on that like they have two very divergent visions for this like I
01:36:33 ◼ ► Virtually that are somewhere else is the important thing and apples vision of it is the work that is being done is presented for dress
01:36:45 ◼ ► It's like metas put a lot of emphasis on like oh if you put the people in the room and then you layer the work
01:36:51 ◼ ► On top like things will get done whereas apples likes saying hey if the people are in the room with you
01:36:56 ◼ ► You're all still able to work together and that's great. But if they are virtual it's the work that's being done
01:37:06 ◼ ► Like we saw one example with their collaborative app, which I always forget the name of freestyle freestyle
01:37:16 ◼ ► But the the freestyle application show very for a free form free form thinking I do it for dinner
01:37:22 ◼ ► But yeah, the you can edit it in making up some like I remember but the the you see the various floating icons, right?
01:37:29 ◼ ► Right, that's like a figma style collaborative thing that we've seen many times and apples like look. This is fine
01:37:38 ◼ ► Elements of this virtually and you're comfortable that they are working on it together and you're talking perhaps or whatever
01:37:47 ◼ ► Virtually in the space with you. It's the work that's being done collaboratively. That's the center stage. Yeah
01:38:03 ◼ ► Because this is all uncharted territory and things seldom play out as designed once reality hits, you know
01:38:24 ◼ ► Like is this a byproduct of their psychology in the way that they work as a company like that they emphasize physical in office
01:38:37 ◼ ► remote work and work from home and Apple in particular is is become political it to some degree and people have very strong opinions, but
01:39:04 ◼ ► That's fair right where I I you know my you know famous I've talked about it my work life
01:39:16 ◼ ► It's I've I mean mine too where we're so remote that the all the remote debate was basically
01:39:21 ◼ ► Mute for us as a cut but it's certainly a topic obviously for a lot of but I but on the other hand
01:39:34 ◼ ► I did with Brent Simmons and and Dave Whiskus and Dave and I designed the whole thing together over iMessage
01:39:41 ◼ ► So, I mean I've done you know, I like everything I don't have a black or a white view on
01:39:45 ◼ ► Remote work. It's very very gray and it depends but I where I get and I could envision some alternate world where I do work
01:39:55 ◼ ► Somewhere like at Apple or somewhere else where it's a team of people and I have in the past worked with people
01:40:11 ◼ ► Not being in a newsroom full of people on production night when the papers coming out the next day
01:40:16 ◼ ► It not just for efficiency not just because of the certainly the tools the online tools for working remotely didn't exist in the 90s
01:40:35 ◼ ► built up around that to some to a large degree where they've attracted people and it's because it's the culture that
01:40:45 ◼ ► real human interactions with your colleagues across disciplines and within your discipline are a
01:40:53 ◼ ► bigger deal at Apple than at some of their competitors and at other companies who do similar things and
01:41:04 ◼ ► I think that's a very keen question from you and Facebook's going through the same thing where I know that they've sort of dialed back to
01:41:11 ◼ ► the concerns of or complaints of some of their employees on some of their remote work policy
01:41:25 ◼ ► Right. So I think that's a keen question. I think at a fundamental level Apple the people at Apple
01:41:39 ◼ ► It's different and irreplaceable and therefore not let's not even pretend that we can replace it by putting on a goggle
01:41:45 ◼ ► Yeah, yeah, I know. I don't know either. You know, I don't know what the answer to that's why I asked
01:41:50 ◼ ► I don't think I mean that it's very interesting that it's something that they it's not even like they have a rudimentary
01:42:01 ◼ ► Thing the concept they've shown that simulates you as an avatar with an avatar of another person in front of you
01:42:09 ◼ ► Yeah, like a holistic telepresence type. No, they have no they just totally as advanced
01:42:15 ◼ ► I wonder if you could by the way, John, I wonder if you could do this easily not easily
01:42:19 ◼ ► I wonder if you could do this. I don't want to undermine the effort but as a developer you could probably
01:42:36 ◼ ► Will ding you will ping you on your iPhone from our app when you're the right distance away
01:42:56 ◼ ► But I'm sure the app could do it itself if you well and at the very least you could have a virtual avatar like your emoji
01:43:03 ◼ ► You know to me. Yeah. Yeah, like a faux a faux one, right? Right. Yeah, that's the expected emoji
01:43:16 ◼ ► All right. Let me take a break here and thank our fourth and final sponsor of the show our good friends at collide
01:43:31 ◼ ► It's easy the way collide works if your device in your company's fleet is not compliant
01:43:43 ◼ ► Whatever the rule is that they've broken if collide identifies it then the user can no longer log in to your company's cloud apps until
01:43:53 ◼ ► They patch one of the major holes in zero trust architecture and that's device compliance
01:43:59 ◼ ► Without collide IT department struggle to solve basic problems like those things like keeping everyone's software up to date
01:44:06 ◼ ► Insecure devices are logging into your company's apps now because there's nothing to stop them collide is the only device trust solution that enforces
01:44:23 ◼ ► They alert the user and they give them instructions to fix it so they can fix it themselves
01:44:29 ◼ ► If they don't fix the problem, they're blocked from logging in. It's that simple and because
01:45:06 ◼ ► Did I here see here's what I think and Ben Thompson and I have talked about this on dithering quite a bit as to whether
01:45:28 ◼ ► Ever since they missed out on mobile. He's seen the ways that Google and Apple in their own ways benefit from
01:45:35 ◼ ► Controlling their own mobile platforms and Facebook missed out on they certainly tried they had the Facebook phone
01:45:41 ◼ ► Gave up on it wisely when they realized it was too little too late and the whole reason that they've gotten into this in bot
01:45:52 ◼ ► It would be much better for us to own the platform or one of the platforms of the genre
01:46:09 ◼ ► So for example Apple doesn't have many apps for Android they do famously have Apple music and otherwise though
01:46:27 ◼ ► They don't make a lot of software for other companies products, and I don't think they should it's not really up their alley
01:46:33 ◼ ► That gets the closest they get to that is with the TV stuff where they've started years ago started working to get Apple TV built
01:46:53 ◼ ► But I think it would be in Facebook's interest to be the company to make that app for vision OS
01:46:58 ◼ ► Right so that you could have the vision if you're if you're if your headset isn't metas
01:47:05 ◼ ► You can still participate in the meetings in their metaverse if your colleagues are using the quest 3 or the quest Pro
01:47:25 ◼ ► Barriers that I don't know about right it seems obvious. I think it would absolutely make sense for them
01:47:31 ◼ ► It is in their area of expertise. I mean they've spent billions of dollars trying to make it work
01:47:35 ◼ ► So seems like they would be capable of doing it. It would absolutely fly in the face of like
01:47:42 ◼ ► Mmm, the any of the quest devices as a colocation work device, but maybe they don't need to be like that
01:47:52 ◼ ► no that sells quest devices right all of those all their experimentation with colocation and and
01:47:58 ◼ ► virtual work and all this stuff none of that sells quests what sells quests is beat saber and and
01:48:04 ◼ ► Vacation simulator and whatever else right like so right. Maybe it doesn't need to be that maybe it needs to be
01:48:17 ◼ ► And be a work device in a couple of years and until then I think it makes a lot of sense for them to say
01:48:26 ◼ ► Developing this and working on human interaction over in a virtual space and we're gonna be there on vision problem day one
01:48:32 ◼ ► Whatever that might require some sort of patching up there a bit of that relationship or at least a swallowing of some sort of pride
01:48:42 ◼ ► Your comment about rendering text reminded me. I'm so glad you said that and I know Apple emphasized it multiple times
01:48:50 ◼ ► I know as far as I could tell every single person who took the got the demo and wrote about it or youtubed about it
01:48:58 ◼ ► That yeah text was very readable in the vision OS you could definitely read you can definitely imagine
01:49:04 ◼ ► Reading articles and stuff or doing your email and all the things you'd want to do that would involve reading or writing text
01:49:15 ◼ ► Wish that we had gotten to try the Mac right debt virtual. I don't think that was ready. We didn't I don't think that was done
01:49:23 ◼ ► Well, and I'm well, I don't know if it's done, but I just don't I don't think it was demo ready, right?
01:49:29 ◼ ► Yeah, I think that's clearly why they didn't do it. I know from talking to Rockwell offstage
01:49:37 ◼ ► People are using it and they people are using it and loving it on the on the team as they say
01:49:50 ◼ ► How big it looks in front of you because the one thing I noticed from my time that precious precious 30s
01:50:01 ◼ ► It seems to me from my memory of the experience and looking also at these screenshots now from developers
01:50:23 ◼ ► But for me personally, it's just and I've played around with it as my eyes have changed in recent years
01:50:41 ◼ ► My comfortable distance is a like about about one inch shorter than if I just put my arms straight out in front of me
01:50:48 ◼ ► Whereas the windows I was looking at in vision OS like looking at the photos app and looking at whatever Safari and whatever else
01:51:22 ◼ ► They just make everything so arms everything like but it's everything is like 20 inches
01:51:26 ◼ ► Exactly, so that's what I'm curious about with the Mac thing. It's like okay. They're saying it's a 4k display
01:51:36 ◼ ► But it's probably like I think I as I expect it'll be it'll be it won't be like having a 32 inch
01:51:56 ◼ ► I mean, um, it's either that or they they make it so that it appears to arms lengths away
01:52:01 ◼ ► We're arms like than a half away from you. Yeah, right. It just seems like that's the natural
01:52:19 ◼ ► Two feet in front of you, but because they're simulating it five or six feet in front of you
01:52:54 ◼ ► You wouldn't want to have 60 inch displays in front of you ironically because a 72 inch TV actually renders text relatively poorly in
01:53:05 ◼ ► Right. Congratulations. If you have like an 8k TV or something, but like most of us that's not gonna be as good
01:53:25 ◼ ► Ten feet from you or 12 feet from you versus having three pro XDR displays at arm's length from you
01:53:37 ◼ ► But like if you're at a desk and you're changing from one display to another that's a significant motility of your head and shoulders
01:53:44 ◼ ► To like move back and forth or swiveling your chair or whatever and all of that is like
01:53:55 ◼ ► Find where you're working click on it and start working right like that's actually a physics thing
01:54:01 ◼ ► You're moving only a few degrees to your eyes perhaps only or maybe your head only a few degrees to go from one
01:54:13 ◼ ► Really nice because it lowers fatigue overall and it can make moving from one thing to another quicker
01:54:18 ◼ ► Obviously that's coupled with the eye tracking and their ability to sense your focus your area of focus
01:54:44 ◼ ► Tracking or gesture gesture forward interfaces wherever you want to call it like on on the quests or on other VR headsets
01:54:52 ◼ ► Because of the way the cameras are situated you have to be up and out with your arms and that's exhausting
01:54:57 ◼ ► Well, you only want to do it for a few minutes then you're like it is boring. Yeah, this sucks
01:55:00 ◼ ► I don't want to do this. Give me my controller right and so like those two things I think are gonna make you
01:55:06 ◼ ► They're gonna lower your fatigue and increase your ability to like work across these large multiple screens
01:55:12 ◼ ► For longer periods of time and with relative ease whereas I think there would be a lot of concern if you're like
01:55:21 ◼ ► So you're having to rotate in space like you're you're physically turning your body like a top to look at these things
01:55:32 ◼ ► Both of those things would be big downsides which have been mitigated by the way that they're executing this
01:55:43 ◼ ► Until after the keynote that he'd been working on this project to some degree for a while and
01:55:56 ◼ ► His inclination was to group multiple windows closer to the center smaller windows closer to the center and without really thinking about it
01:56:15 ◼ ► no, you're just spread out more make everything bigger push it out a little bit more and fan it out in front of you and
01:56:25 ◼ ► He was like God and once it it's not like working on a screen or two screens in front of you at all
01:56:41 ◼ ► You don't actually have to turn that much right which is what you're saying like, right?
01:56:45 ◼ ► If they're if they're actually like arms length in front of you, like you're in a cockpit
01:56:52 ◼ ► Whereas this you can have an array of four windows and you don't even have to move that much because they're so big and so far
01:57:03 ◼ ► It just doesn't map to the way that we've spent our lives working with everything on actual screens in front of us
01:57:22 ◼ ► I didn't write a review of it because there's hardly anything to say I have the 15-inch MacBook Air
01:57:26 ◼ ► Which is the most obvious product that Apple didn't hear to Ford didn't make which is a?
01:57:33 ◼ ► Consumer price laptop with a bigger screen and it does the reason it popped into my head here is because it does fit with this
01:57:56 ◼ ► something like this for 20 years from Apple a consumer price big-screen laptop and it's gone from
01:58:02 ◼ ► 13 to 15 inches which otherwise sounds great except it was announced alongside this thing that lets you put
01:58:12 ◼ ► Markets are probably slightly different for them for now. But yeah, it's yeah, it's nice computer
01:58:27 ◼ ► In the next 10 years and it's got 15 inches on it and it's like it's a that's actually a really solid
01:58:37 ◼ ► Revision of the air's design is good. Like it's a nice compromise between something that's like
01:58:48 ◼ ► Like the hard the sharp edge air was never my favorite as far as my wrist wins and all that stuff
01:58:53 ◼ ► Like they've just done a really nice. Yeah with it. It's just a really really really good computer
01:58:57 ◼ ► It's like somebody's like, oh I need a MacBook. I don't I don't know what to buy as well
01:59:01 ◼ ► I know what you buy this is what you buy. I think it's gonna be a default for a lot of people
01:59:30 ◼ ► It's thinner and lighter and there's absolutely nothing that the 16 inch MacBook Pro does that most people would even notice
01:59:38 ◼ ► Yes, it has better speakers if you're using your MacBook speakers. Yes. That's a big difference
01:59:44 ◼ ► but in terms of the things most people would do and appreciate there's there's very little and it's
01:59:54 ◼ ► Dude, I mean it it's just none of the fans I guess like it's a problem, but it's a good problem. No, but I don't
02:00:02 ◼ ► They can't really delay this stuff. They're gonna just launch it into the in the atmosphere. I think it when the dust settles though. I
02:00:11 ◼ ► This deep of a segmentation on what they sold and max wise but a lot of analysts will do run the numbers and kind of give
02:00:18 ◼ ► Us estimates and I'm very interested to see what those estimates are and I I would guess it'd be high on how many of those
02:00:24 ◼ ► They're gonna sell because it's only a couple hundred bucks more than the smaller screen one
02:00:27 ◼ ► It's like if you're using an external monitor and this is really just a every once a while
02:00:35 ◼ ► But if you're in any way superform using this as your only computer that you're taking everywhere
02:00:50 ◼ ► It's that's only $100 difference from the 13-inch MacBook Air because the lowest price not counting the 999
02:01:08 ◼ ► Which again most people aren't going to notice but really spec for spec only $100 difference
02:01:13 ◼ ► I I do wonder whether it's quint. I'm wondering curious if you if it's coincidence that
02:01:29 ◼ ► It's like I've been writing all year like and some people have said oh it seems like the for the
02:01:36 ◼ ► 14 max or whatever or no plus they call it right the iPhone 14 plus isn't selling that great to me
02:01:44 ◼ ► that that product is about years from now like next year when the iPhone 15 comes out and the 14 plus is still there and
02:01:54 ◼ ► Two years from now when somebody is shopping for an iPhone, but they only want to spend 600 bucks
02:02:09 ◼ ► Didn't have big-screen laptops except at the pro prices and now they're like, okay fine
02:02:24 ◼ ► The expanse that you can get in a vision Pro. I don't know that it's completely coincidental like if vision
02:02:30 ◼ ► Were still two years away would they have already started expanding these other devices maybe but you see you're you're saying that kind of
02:02:41 ◼ ► Size agnostic kind of universe where it's like, oh, what's an inch? Yes. Yes. Yes. Yeah
02:02:47 ◼ ► Yeah, that's a good way to put it right that if we're why even quibble about 13 verse 15 versus 16 inch displays anymore
02:02:56 ◼ ► We can get we've got this other product that can show you a movie on a 60 inch display or a 60 foot display
02:03:12 ◼ ► Well, anyway, I just call it a wrap that it's always good to talk to you is good to see you
02:03:17 ◼ ► Yeah, the video is different and I like it's it's nice. I have to keep remembering to respond with my voice though
02:03:36 ◼ ► Yeah, this is YouTube and I can yeah, I can use hand gestures, but I do find myself doing that
02:03:41 ◼ ► Let me thank our sponsors can't forget them our good friends at back blaze where you can get online backup for just seven bucks per Mac
02:03:58 ◼ ► Collide where you can manage get your devices get a hundred percent fleet compliance my thanks to all of them and to you
02:04:06 ◼ ► Matthew panzerino editor-in-chief of tech crunch and personality extraordinaire on Twitter. Well, thank you very much
02:04:12 ◼ ► I appreciate it always fun to talk. I mean, this is exciting stuff. I'm really really glad they did this