00:00:08 ◼ ► From Relay FM, this is Upgrade, episode 463. Today's show is brought to you by ExpressVPN,
00:00:15 ◼ ► TextExpander and DarkNoise. My name is Mike Hurley, I am joined by Jason Snell. Hi Jason!
00:00:39 ◼ ► and they circulate all the air sort of through, and then the places we were were basically open
00:00:46 ◼ ► to the air because they had opened them up. I mean perhaps if you're in a... As we were taking
00:00:56 ◼ ► huge swaths of offices and cubicles right up against the window, so they get the light,
00:01:04 ◼ ► The one place that had a distinct pleasant smell... So where we recorded the last episode
00:01:11 ◼ ► was a recording studio based inside of the fitness center, which was across the street from what was
00:01:20 ◼ ► being called I think like Fieldhouse or something, which is where the Vision Pro demos were,
00:01:30 ◼ ► but it was very clear that was what that was, but none of that had happened for either of us
00:01:34 ◼ ► at that point. But where the podcast studio was is a fitness center, and that smelled like a spa.
00:01:43 ◼ ► Yeah, I went into the locker room because I had to use the bathroom, and the locker room
00:01:46 ◼ ► smelled like a locker room, but okay. Well, what else would you want? If it smelled like
00:01:51 ◼ ► something else, you'd feel lost. Where am I? Skeuomorphism. I'm looking for the locker room.
00:01:58 ◼ ► If you would like to send in a Snell Talk question of your own to help open a future episode,
00:02:02 ◼ ► just go to upgradefeedback.com and do so. Thank you to Upgrading Ramon for sending it in.
00:02:19 ◼ ► That is now the tradition set after what was the only good thing of my WWDC experience last year
00:02:28 ◼ ► when you've been in town or you've stuck around. We've tried to do it somewhere in person. Whenever
00:02:31 ◼ ► we're nearby, we try to do it in person. We're inside and not out with the birds this morning,
00:02:36 ◼ ► because one of my neighbors is apparently having their roof redone, and there were very loud
00:02:43 ◼ ► scraping. When I started to clean up out there and get it ready to go, there was a very loud
00:02:47 ◼ ► scraping sound, and I looked up to discover five men on my neighbor's roof moving gravel around
00:02:56 ◼ ► Yeah, exactly. So instead, we are not unprecedented for Upgrade to have us in my office.
00:03:01 ◼ ► And I had James Thompson in my office here before, so it's a little bit of a setup. It's kind of
00:03:06 ◼ ► wild. We have a studio audience because Adina is here and official upgrade video, TikTok video
00:03:32 ◼ ► It depends on whether the second cat will make an appearance. I doubt it. I think it's going to be
00:03:46 ◼ ► Upgrade your wardrobe dot com. We didn't get to spend a lot of time talking about this last
00:03:50 ◼ ► episode because we were at a pressing time limit for ticking clock. Yes. The whole time. So we
00:03:56 ◼ ► wanted we were like getting ready. Yes, indeed. We have a selection of T-shirts available for
00:04:02 ◼ ► your perusal. They are only available until the 16th of June. So that is the end of this week.
00:04:09 ◼ ► So you have until the end of this week to pick up one of all three summer of fun designs.
00:04:21 ◼ ► We have the dongle town surf club team making its return and the introduction of a fantastic
00:04:27 ◼ ► new design of the thunderbolt dock surf shop. Thunderbolt dock. It's a place. It's a place.
00:04:34 ◼ ► It's a dock in dongle town. Yeah, it's right on the water. Obviously, it's a dock. I think it's
00:04:38 ◼ ► sort of like a wood pier that kind of. Oh, definitely. And then there are shops and one
00:04:41 ◼ ► of them is a surf shop. And you see their shirts all over town as you do with the surf shop.
00:04:46 ◼ ► Because people support the local surf shop. Yeah. And they or or visitors to town buy it as a
00:04:50 ◼ ► souvenir. Yeah. And you can too by going to upgrade your wardrobe.com. You only have a few days left
00:04:56 ◼ ► to do so. So we really would love it if you check us out. This this. This design is very good. I
00:05:02 ◼ ► like it a lot. And it's also the I like the colors a lot. They are very summery. Yes, indeed. There's
00:05:06 ◼ ► a yellow and a pink and they're nice. And there's a neutral for people who don't want to commit to a
00:05:12 ◼ ► color. Yeah, exactly. So go check it out right now. You is it the last time we can tell you? Yes,
00:05:17 ◼ ► you do want them. You have to go get them because it's it's done at the end of this week. And as
00:05:21 ◼ ► upgrade your wardrobe.com. We also mentioned last time that there were we were being filmed,
00:05:27 ◼ ► the entire episode was filmed last week, which it was. We had some clips that went up on our
00:05:32 ◼ ► various channels. But we also put the entire episode on YouTube. So upgrade now has a YouTube
00:05:39 ◼ ► channel. Yeah, we will not. We have no plans right now to do this like entire recordings of the show.
00:05:46 ◼ ► Who knows? Who knows? Right? Because we're experimenting with video. But Apple Apple like
00:05:51 ◼ ► had a director there who was switching. There were eight people. Yeah, it was one of the we record
00:05:57 ◼ ► ourselves. Now we're actually doing it today. I have some tripods. I have a tripod that I've had
00:06:01 ◼ ► since the 80s that's being used with an iPhone on it. We're recording this to do our little clips
00:06:05 ◼ ► that tripod older than me. When were you born? 88. Oh, yeah, it's excellent. Yeah, for sure.
00:06:11 ◼ ► I must respect my oldest. respect the tripod. And so we're doing that sort of like in our usual way.
00:06:19 ◼ ► But we the difference is we could turn every episode into a video episode if we wanted to.
00:06:25 ◼ ► But somebody would have to direct it at least after the fact you could do a multi until AI
00:06:32 ◼ ► becomes a director. Yeah, we could do an AI. Which is like a legit thing that we might do in the
00:06:35 ◼ ► future. Well, I mean, having you could base it even on the on the audio, right? Who's talking,
00:06:40 ◼ ► it switches to that one. Although you'd miss some of the for people who have seen the video clips,
00:06:44 ◼ ► which we post on TikTok and Instagram and on Mastodon and will presumably start on our YouTube
00:06:50 ◼ ► channel. Might as well. Those little fun clips. I edit those and I am actually like editing in
00:06:55 ◼ ► funny reaction shot. Like there's a moment where I say something and you just start laughing and
00:06:59 ◼ ► you're silent, but you're you're laughing. You do a good job. And I want to cut that back in because
00:07:02 ◼ ► it's funny. Like AI is going to have to advance further in order to do that. But I think it could
00:07:08 ◼ ► though. It could. It could. Because that's a combination of like audio and some kind of facial
00:07:13 ◼ ► recognition analysis. So and the beauty of it is we're sticking with our commitment to not
00:07:18 ◼ ► seeing each other other than now when we actually are seeing each other, but not not seeing each
00:07:22 ◼ ► other when we record. So you could still do a video episode of upgrade if you wanted to.
00:07:30 ◼ ► on our real to do list, but it's we've opened the door now. Yeah, who knows? Who knows? And
00:07:35 ◼ ► did you notice that the John Gruber's been posting little TikTok clips from the talk show? I saw that.
00:07:41 ◼ ► I will note one of the funniest things that happened last week, which we didn't mention
00:07:50 ◼ ► a couple of sound engineers, a director, like the whole thing. Before we started, someone came out
00:07:55 ◼ ► with a clapper and went, "upgrade, take one." And I had to have all of I sent you a frame
00:08:04 ◼ ► of right after that where I can see that thought passing through your mind where I had to like
00:08:08 ◼ ► restrain myself so much from laughing because it's like, how many takes are we going to get?
00:08:13 ◼ ► And also on that frame, one actually says they wrote down upgrade, take one. It's on the frame.
00:08:19 ◼ ► And that was just hilarious to me how we could we could have got halfway through and be like,
00:08:23 ◼ ► sorry, gang, take two. We're going to start again. We're going to mess this whole thing up. We're
00:08:26 ◼ ► going to start again. Yep. So you can go and get that. I'll put a link in the show notes. If you
00:08:30 ◼ ► want to just see what it looked like. It was a really great set that they put together. And the
00:08:34 ◼ ► quality of the image is so good. And they did such a good job directing the thing. Like,
00:08:38 ◼ ► yeah, honestly, they shot it in 4k and my our drive wasn't big enough to take that file. So
00:08:43 ◼ ► so we're we're, we just did it in 1080. You don't need it in 4k. It was, yeah, it was pretty
00:08:49 ◼ ► awesome. If you enjoy this show, and you would like more of it, you should subscribe to Upgrade
00:08:54 ◼ ► Plus. You will hear no ads, you'll get bonus content every week, you go to get upgrade plus
00:08:58 ◼ ► calm and you can sign up. This is kind of around the time, Jason, where the when we started. So
00:09:03 ◼ ► we get a lot of annual renewals now. So thank you so much to people that have stuck around with us
00:09:07 ◼ ► for another year. We really appreciate you. In today's episode, we're going to talk about the
00:09:11 ◼ ► fact that we unexpectedly went to a baseball game yesterday. Oh, excellent. We'll talk about that.
00:09:16 ◼ ► So it was WWDCs, WWDCs done now. There are a couple of tidbits that I wanted to talk about
00:09:23 ◼ ► with you, Jason, that I saw floating around some things that were of interest to me. One is just
00:09:28 ◼ ► reminders in general, Apple was very much leveled up reminders this year. There were two things that
00:09:34 ◼ ► caught my eye. And they kind of both based around the idea of being able to put sections in your
00:09:39 ◼ ► reminders list. So you could have a list, you can have a bunch of sections in it. One of them now is
00:09:44 ◼ ► you could create these sections yourself. And then instead of viewing them just as a list,
00:09:48 ◼ ► you can view your reminders kind of list as a Kanban board broken down into these sections.
00:09:54 ◼ ► Yeah, the reminders notes teams are killing it. They're on fire right now. And so that is very
00:09:59 ◼ ► exciting to me. So Adina and I use Trello for managing some of our home projects. And I think
00:10:05 ◼ ► it would be nicer to use reminders, because we have to do sometimes on these Trello things,
00:10:11 ◼ ► it's just too I feel like it's too heavyweight. But if we could have them as lists, but also
00:10:15 ◼ ► as a Kanban board, it's that is like, fantastic. They call it columns. Yeah, column view. I had
00:10:22 ◼ ► never heard Kanban until a couple of years ago. But back in the day, when I started a Mac user,
00:10:28 ◼ ► and even the first few years at Macworld, that's actually how we did the whole magazine. There was
00:10:32 ◼ ► literally a board with three by five cards. It's part of sprint. And it would move, it would move
00:10:37 ◼ ► along the board from, you know, article not in to pages finalized. So you'll be able to do that now
00:10:44 ◼ ► in reminders. Thank goodness. I just started a magazine. Yeah, easy, easy. So what I like about
00:10:49 ◼ ► that, though, is it is more than just this thing is done or not done, it can be moving through a
00:10:53 ◼ ► process. So in reminders, I like that as an idea of, well, it's not completed yet, but it's moved
00:10:59 ◼ ► forward in a stage. So you could do that. But also, with these columns, Apple is doing machine
00:11:06 ◼ ► learning that if you have a grocery list in reminders, it can automatically categorizes
00:11:13 ◼ ► groceries based on produce type, right? So you'll be like, if you had carrots and apples and meat,
00:11:19 ◼ ► it would categorize them as fruit and vegetables and some kind of meat poultry in your shopping
00:11:24 ◼ ► list for you. So it's easy when you're going through the supermarket. So I use any list for
00:11:27 ◼ ► a shopping list. And it does that, right? This is a this is a thing. They've like built that in
00:11:31 ◼ ► to. But it's cool to be in reminders. Right, because that's the idea is that if you're going
00:11:36 ◼ ► there, then it's sort of going to be vaguely sorted by where it is in the store. Yeah, exactly.
00:11:41 ◼ ► Yeah. You're talking about notes. The big thing that everybody's excited about about the notes is
00:11:46 ◼ ► you can now link between notes. Yes. Apple notes. And this can be done two ways. There is a button
00:11:51 ◼ ► in the text pop up menu. So if you do like the text selection, you can do link to note. But also,
00:11:56 ◼ ► if you type two greater than symbols, it pops up the UI. Now that I like that specifically,
00:12:02 ◼ ► because that feels like it's very much observing the way that people work, right? Like,
00:12:06 ◼ ► obsidian and all of these things have some kind of text command, it's like two open brackets or
00:12:10 ◼ ► something. It doesn't do like the wiki style linking in the way of like, you can't if you
00:12:16 ◼ ► go to one, you don't get a link to go back to the other automatically, you could do it yourself.
00:12:21 ◼ ► But I just like this is a simple thing. There have been times where I've had a note and, you know,
00:12:26 ◼ ► like I say, it's like a travel note. I would also like the link to the passport note that I keep in
00:12:30 ◼ ► Apple Notes. Well, I could just link those two together. And it's just easy to jump to one and
00:12:34 ◼ ► the other. This is that I think they've done this the right way. There were a lot of people that
00:12:39 ◼ ► wanted this kind of feature. And I was concerned that it was going to make Apple Notes too
00:12:44 ◼ ► complicated. Right. But this is the quintessential Apple way, right? Which is everybody's like, oh,
00:12:48 ◼ ► are they Sherlocking obsidian or things like that? It's like, well, no, because they're not going to
00:12:53 ◼ ► make it that powerful. Like their idea of a power user feature is a couple of greater thans to make
00:12:58 ◼ ► a quick link, not to build an entire automatic backlinking system. And who knows where the future
00:13:04 ◼ ► goes? Yeah, I could see them doing a shortcut to bring up your backlinks so that you could do that
00:13:09 ◼ ► yourself. But like this is very Apple. It's like they want to, okay, a couple of years ago, I asked
00:13:14 ◼ ► them about this because I said, wouldn't it be natural to do notes linking? And they said, we
00:13:19 ◼ ► like it as an idea. But the question is always, how do you make it something that they have an
00:13:24 ◼ ► idealized user? They're thinking of the general user of iOS. It's like, how do we make it so that
00:13:30 ◼ ► the generalized user will find value in it? It's not the same as saying, how do we make it so that
00:13:36 ◼ ► we don't want power users to be happy, right? That's not what they're saying. And their idealized
00:13:42 ◼ ► user is not, it's somebody who uses third-party apps and wants a little bit more, but they're not
00:13:47 ◼ ► necessarily a superpower user. I'm sure they've got like a set of users that they think of. But
00:13:51 ◼ ► the key that they were trying to give us was we're thinking about it, but we want to approach it in a
00:13:56 ◼ ► way that's the right level for us, the right level of complexity for our users. And this is the
00:14:03 ◼ ► result after all that time. Have you heard about the game porting toolkit? I have. I have heard
00:14:08 ◼ ► about it. It's basically crossover from CodeWeavers, which is an open source. CodeWeavers posted a note
00:14:16 ◼ ► saying something like, "We see that Apple is using our open source tool. Hooray." But I get the sense
00:14:21 ◼ ► too that it's sort of like, oh, we got bitten by the open source and Apple has just taken it and
00:14:25 ◼ ► is using it too. It's based on Wine. So the idea is it's emulating Windows API so you can more
00:14:30 ◼ ► quickly, if you're developing a PC game or a PC port of your console game. I love this because
00:14:42 ◼ ► irrelevant. And you know, I get it. I mean, there are very few people like Peter Cohen,
00:14:46 ◼ ► who I used to work with and used to do Mac games all the time. He knows more about this than I do,
00:14:51 ◼ ► but like I have a long track record of seeing Apple sort of say that they cared about Mac
00:15:00 ◼ ► Apple putting an effort into, because they've got Apple Silicon and because the horsepower is so
00:15:07 ◼ ► good. Apple putting an effort in saying, you know, Mac gaming never may be huge, but what we would
00:15:14 ◼ ► like is to make it easy for people who are going to PC to say, well, why don't we also put it on
00:15:20 ◼ ► Mac? And they said at the talk show with John Gruber, they had the perspective, which I thought
00:15:24 ◼ ► was good, which is there are more Macs out there than ever. And today, because of Apple Silicon,
00:15:31 ◼ ► every Mac that's Apple Silicon is powerful enough to run PC games. So really what you want to do
00:15:38 ◼ ► with your Apple is not evangelize, like make a Mac only game or use metal natively. I mean,
00:15:43 ◼ ► those are all great, but those are probably coming from the iOS side. It's can we make it so much
00:15:49 ◼ ► easier for you to just commit to saying on Mac and PC instead of on PC and will they succeed at that?
00:15:58 ◼ ► I don't know, but like they might when they say it's on Steam, right? There's no asterisk anymore.
00:16:04 ◼ ► If it's on Steam, you can run it and you can run on the Mac. So I've seen some performance
00:16:08 ◼ ► kind of charts from people that like a couple of YouTubers I've seen put some stuff together.
00:16:27 ◼ ► Right. The goal with this kit, which I think is clever, is they're using Wine. It's almost like,
00:16:33 ◼ ► well, here's where it runs unmodified. And then I imagine if you're a developer, you kind of triage
00:16:38 ◼ ► it and say, what are the things we need to do to make it shippable on Mac? And this is Apple saying,
00:16:49 ◼ ► if you have aspects of it that are using Wine essentially to take your Windows APIs that you
00:16:55 ◼ ► rely on and run it on the Mac. We're not too proud about that. It's okay. And our hardware is good
00:17:00 ◼ ► enough that we can handle it. And they're doing some work to translate things to metal and, you
00:17:05 ◼ ► know, that's great. So I think that there's a lack of, well, let me rephrase that. I think there's
00:17:14 ◼ ► humility going on here that maybe you don't expect to see from Apple, but for games, you just have to
00:17:19 ◼ ► be. I think clearly somebody at Apple has become a realist in saying, we're going to make an effort
00:17:24 ◼ ► to make it so that if somebody's making a game for Windows, it will be easy to come to the Mac.
00:17:30 ◼ ► And that our Mac market is bigger than it used to be and more capable than it used to be. And so
00:17:38 ◼ ► put those things together. I don't think the Mac's going to ever become top rated AAA gaming
00:17:43 ◼ ► platform. Right. But like all they really need, like you said, with Steam, with a lot of developers
00:17:48 ◼ ► is just like, oh, there's a path for us to just do a little bit of work and say it's PC and Mac
00:17:54 ◼ ► instead of just PC. I think that's the best Apple can hope for, but I think that's actually pretty
00:17:59 ◼ ► good. My expectation is there is someone inside of Apple that runs gaming or Mac gaming or whatever,
00:18:05 ◼ ► and they have been emboldened by the power of Apple Silicon to finally put together a plan.
00:18:11 ◼ ► That like they are now able to go to their bosses and their higher ups and be like, look,
00:18:16 ◼ ► we now have power to spare. Please, can we move this forward? And I wonder if they had to get past
00:18:24 ◼ ► some not invented here syndrome, right? Which is like, they should just use the Metal APIs.
00:18:29 ◼ ► Why are they using Windows? Why would we encourage them to use Windows? We want to encourage Metal,
00:18:32 ◼ ► right? Like that's the goal. But we need to give people the ability to run. This is, I think it was
00:18:37 ◼ ► even in the state, even when I did a session about it, where they were showing a demo of like,
00:18:41 ◼ ► okay, you're running it in the toolkit, but you can see where you're losing some frames.
00:18:51 ◼ ► To get it good enough to ship. And so like that, it's like this idea of, of you can do both.
00:18:56 ◼ ► And somebody got empowered at Apple to say it's okay, right? I think that's the key there.
00:19:00 ◼ ► Somebody unlocked something where they're like, you know what? It doesn't matter if they're using
00:19:10 ◼ ► Stage Manager on the iPad seems good now. And this is my biggest surprise for WWDC because it was a
00:19:17 ◼ ► year over year improvement where they addressed most of the complaints. So just the top level,
00:19:23 ◼ ► obviously Federico did a great write up, which I was actually watching him write using Stage
00:19:28 ◼ ► Manager while he was writing it, which is one of the great things about WWDC. Windows now have
00:19:34 ◼ ► more sizing and placement options. So you have more flexibility over how big the windows are
00:19:39 ◼ ► Yeah. I had the, remember my rant about this was why do you give us windows and then not let us
00:19:45 ◼ ► put them where we want? And I had somebody say, Hey, Jason, that thing where you've got one big
00:19:49 ◼ ► window in the center and then another one off to the side, you can do that now. And I tried it and
00:19:54 ◼ ► you can totally do that now. And that's all, that's what I wanted is like, if I want one window
00:19:58 ◼ ► in the middle and one on the side, I don't want the system saying what you really want is two
00:20:09 ◼ ► It's yeah, they, they, I don't know what, I don't know why it took a year, but yeah, they did it.
00:20:14 ◼ ► My expectation is the person, there is a person who had a very particular view of how this should
00:20:24 ◼ ► be done. And maybe that person is not on that project anymore because this is fundamentally
00:20:34 ◼ ► and now it's in the hands of the product team. And that they were like, yeah, we're not going
00:20:39 ◼ ► There is so much changed here that I would expect that there has been some kind of opinion that has
00:20:46 ◼ ► had to change because realistically, either somebody left, this could have happened before
00:20:51 ◼ ► Right. I think either somebody left or somebody changed their mind. Somebody was finally convinced
00:20:55 ◼ ► There's been some kind of big opinion change. But what I like here is this is a obvious they
00:21:01 ◼ ► have listened to what people were saying. Um, I do wonder why they couldn't have done this
00:21:11 ◼ ► Honestly, I think they were stamping on a bunch of bugs, right? I think that maybe they said,
00:21:16 ◼ ► why don't we save this feature change for 17 and focus our 16 releases on getting it to be
00:21:22 ◼ ► I would have maybe questioned if they decided that during the period that they should have
00:21:27 ◼ ► held it. They just shouldn't have shipped Stage Manager in iOS 16 on the iPad. If a year later,
00:21:33 ◼ ► they were actually going to make it what it should have been. But anyway, this we've had
00:21:38 ◼ ► I think they were midstream. I think they were midstream. And if you're in January and you're
00:21:41 ◼ ► saying, well, we can do this thing. I can see a manager saying, why don't we put that in
00:21:48 ◼ ► But one of the things that iPad version of Stage Manager has that I need to try and confirm
00:21:57 ◼ ► it opens in your current stage from the dock, from Spotlight. And that's something the Mac
00:22:01 ◼ ► doesn't do. So like if I shift click an icon on Ventura, it just opens in its own window.
00:22:08 ◼ ► And I would like, because that would stop my finder problem, where opening finder means
00:22:18 ◼ ► This is something that we wanted and this is sent to us by Chase. iOS 17 has the option
00:22:31 ◼ ► that once you filled them, they're just removed. This also includes, which is now a new feature
00:22:36 ◼ ► in iOS 17, email. So if you have, I'm assuming you have to use mail. My hope is that maybe
00:22:52 ◼ ► I hate codes by mail so much. But it also now delete that email. So that's like a great
00:23:00 ◼ ► because we're talking about standby and we're talking about FaceTime continuity camera and
00:23:03 ◼ ► how it seemed to appear that at some point in the future now, this is all going to come
00:23:08 ◼ ► together into a new Apple product for the home. There is now something called Dock Kit,
00:23:21 ◼ ► integrate with a dock to follow you around. And so Apple is building that feature into iOS.
00:23:27 ◼ ► It used to be like you'd have to open the DJI app if you had like one of the DJI things.
00:23:32 ◼ ► And then it would use its own facial tracking and it would move itself around. And this is just
00:23:36 ◼ ► like the idea here is there's a standard API. Everybody can build motorized iPhone mounts.
00:23:42 ◼ ► You put an iPhone in it and it will just talk to the camera and follow you around. And you can set
00:23:49 ◼ ► that remotely. And it's that's yeah, that's pretty cool. This episode of Upgrade is brought to you by
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00:24:19 ◼ ► you sleep, focus and relax. Indie developer Charlie Chapman, who I actually spent some time with WWDC
00:24:25 ◼ ► this past week. Charlie's a great guy. And you know, we were talking a lot about all of the new
00:24:30 ◼ ► stuff. And of course, he's getting ready to put whatever he can into the next version of DarkNoise
00:24:35 ◼ ► to support all of Apple's upcoming iOS changes. Charlie works incredibly hard to make DarkNoise
00:24:41 ◼ ► the best platform citizen on Apple devices. That's exactly what I'm talking about. It is loaded with
00:24:45 ◼ ► features such as rich shortcut support, highly customizable home screen and lock screen widgets.
00:24:50 ◼ ► I look forward very much actually to the lock screen widgets and DarkNoise hopefully getting
00:24:54 ◼ ► some interactivity in the future so I can play my DarkNoise sounds right from the home screen,
00:24:59 ◼ ► plus Airplay and Siri support. It has iCloud syncing and so much more. DarkNoise also has
00:25:04 ◼ ► a sleep timer to automatically fade your sound out and a unique feature called mix audio. This
00:25:09 ◼ ► is the really powerful stuff where you can take multiple different types of DarkNoise sounds and
00:25:14 ◼ ► mix them together with themselves and audio from other apps such as Apple Music or Overcast.
00:25:20 ◼ ► So you could be listening to ThunderNoise on a plane while also listening to your podcast
00:25:25 ◼ ► if that's what you want to do. DarkNoise is free to download today with eight unique sounds
00:25:29 ◼ ► and you can upgrade to DarkNoise Pro to unlock over 50 sounds and build your custom mixes
00:25:35 ◼ ► for infinite possibilities. Exactly. Thank you, Jason. That's what it would sound like.
00:25:39 ◼ ► I love it. DarkNoise if you wanted to do that. DarkNoise Pro also includes many premium app
00:25:43 ◼ ► themes, custom app icons, including some that listeners of this show may recognize. To download
00:25:49 ◼ ► DarkNoise for free today, go to darknoise.app or search DarkNoise in the App Store. That is
00:25:55 ◼ ► darknoise.app or DarkNoise in the App Store. Our thanks to DarkNoise for the support of this show
00:26:00 ◼ ► and all of Relay FM. Thank you very much. When we recorded this time last week, we were kind of
00:26:09 ◼ ► pre-Vision Pro. We are now post-Vision Pro. We are. To catch up gradients up on this, we have both
00:26:18 ◼ ► experienced the Apple Vision Pro try-on thing. You wrote a great article. I would like to direct
00:26:25 ◼ ► people to an episode of Cortex that I put out. Excellent. Thank you so much. Where my goal for
00:26:30 ◼ ► that episode was to go chronologically through what that entire experience is like, I was hoping
00:26:36 ◼ ► to kind of try and bring people along with me. Yeah, it was good. I mean, it's amplified by the
00:26:41 ◼ ► fact that CGP Grey is like giggling throughout. It's amazing. I'm very proud of that episode.
00:26:48 ◼ ► But we have now, not only have we experienced the Apple Vision Pro, it's now been, you know,
00:26:55 ◼ ► best part of a week since. Yes. I've been able to get it out of my mind. I've been thinking about it
00:27:01 ◼ ► constantly. I keep wanting to reach out to a window and move it. Why not, right? I mean, that,
00:27:06 ◼ ► that just felt so natural. Like, oh my God, I just grabbed the window by the bottom and move it. And
00:27:11 ◼ ► it's amazing. It's, I feel like, so this is an issue that we, you know, we went to see the talk
00:27:21 ◼ ► show and John was having the same problem that I've just experienced now. This is a very hard
00:27:26 ◼ ► thing to talk about when you're talking about how it makes you feel. Right. Because it is a very
00:27:31 ◼ ► personal experience. And, and it's hard, I think, hard to get across the challenges. You're talking
00:27:39 ◼ ► to people who haven't experienced it. And how do you get that visceral reaction over to someone
00:27:44 ◼ ► else with words? Because it really is a sensory experience. So it's, it's very hard. I would say,
00:27:51 ◼ ► I want to preface this by saying, what has struck me the last few weeks, but certainly after
00:27:58 ◼ ► experiencing it for myself, that there are two conversations to be had about this product.
00:28:06 ◼ ► And what frustrates me is that people want to conflate the two conversations because there's
00:28:13 ◼ ► what the product is as a piece of technology. The Apple vision pro. The Apple vision pro.
00:28:19 ◼ ► And then there's the business story, which is did Apple make a mistake in investing seven years in
00:28:26 ◼ ► this? They spent a lot of money. Are the, is it ever going to be successful? Is it ever going to
00:28:29 ◼ ► sell millions of units? Are people going to want it? Is the price too high? All of which are not
00:28:35 ◼ ► unreasonable questions. Having a conversation about business strategy. We talk about business
00:28:40 ◼ ► strategy at Apple all the time. I think it's really interesting. And honestly, I think the
00:28:44 ◼ ► jury's still out about whether this product will find an audience. I've seen some people who are
00:28:49 ◼ ► like, oh, just for watching movies, it's going to be a huge hit. And I'm like, for single people
00:28:54 ◼ ► can watch at a time and it's $3,500. Like I see people making assumptions in that direction.
00:28:59 ◼ ► I also see people making assumptions and saying, this is going to be a failure. It's already a
00:29:05 ◼ ► failure. That's an interesting conversation to have. I think the most interesting conversation
00:29:14 ◼ ► is the product part, but they're both valid conversations to have. They're different. What
00:29:20 ◼ ► I know, and I think what you know, having had this experience, and I know six months before it comes
00:29:25 ◼ ► out, it's a wired up demo. It's only the stuff they were comfortable to show us. Although I will
00:29:33 ◼ ► What I haven't seen out there is a lot of discourse about the product. I think in part because
00:29:53 ◼ ► I didn't expect to come away with quite that reaction for a product that's six months away
00:29:59 ◼ ► from even shipping. It feels like this is Apple very carefully imagining their whole platform
00:30:04 ◼ ► and building an incredible piece of hardware and having a vision, no pun intended, of what
00:30:11 ◼ ► this product should be. It's really coherent. It's incredibly well executed. Some of the technology
00:30:19 ◼ ► is mind-boggling. I came away thinking this is one of the best things Apple has ever created.
00:30:32 ◼ ► Which is not me saying I think it's going to be a huge hit, and everybody's going to want it,
00:30:36 ◼ ► and everybody's going to be wearing these things in two years or something like that. I think the
00:30:40 ◼ ► jury's still out on all of that. I think it's worth having that separate conversation. What
00:30:45 ◼ ► frustrates me is when we have these conversations about this really remarkable product, and they get
00:30:50 ◼ ► short-circuited by people saying, "Eh, $3,500. Nobody wants it. Whatever." It's like, okay,
00:31:07 ◼ ► who is not universally positive about it. There are questions. I have questions. You have questions.
00:31:11 ◼ ► It was not a perfect experience for me. My demo failed at a certain point. It's heavy. The way
00:31:18 ◼ ► that I've described it is I don't know if this is heavier than other headsets that I've used,
00:31:23 ◼ ► but it reminds me of AirPods Max. They are usable. I wear them for long, long periods of time,
00:31:39 ◼ ► - It's hard because this is our business, right? Of course I'm going to pay $3,500 for this.
00:31:44 ◼ ► - Let me put it. Say you're going to pay that, but you would never write about it. Having the
00:31:50 ◼ ► experience that you've had, do you want to own that thing for $3,500? I'll tip my hand and say yes.
00:31:58 ◼ ► - This is one of those things where I know that is so much money, but it's worth the money.
00:32:04 ◼ ► I have used the MetaQuest Pro, which is basically half the price. This is 20 times the experience
00:32:12 ◼ ► which is I've watched a movie on the MetaQuest 2, which is terrible quality. It's super grainy and
00:32:18 ◼ ► low quality, but even there, the 3D, having that immersive response to watching a movie or to being
00:32:26 ◼ ► in a different place, even there, it's really good, and then this thing is just at another level
00:32:33 ◼ ► for all of that stuff. So yeah, now this is us talking as technology enthusiasts, right?
00:32:40 ◼ ► So for us, it's not too surprising that we might say yes, but I was like, yeah, I don't know. And
00:32:50 ◼ ► at that price point where we were talking about it before, where I was like, oh, that's going to
00:32:54 ◼ ► sting. But now I can't wait to give it that money. - Let me have it. Let me have it. Let me line it
00:33:00 ◼ ► up. - I know it's a lot of money, but it's the price of a computer. - It is also, I would say,
00:33:06 ◼ ► if you look at what a Lisa or an original Mac cost in today's dollars, they were really expensive.
00:33:13 ◼ ► A lot of stuff has gotten cheaper because it's in volume and they've really optimized things.
00:33:18 ◼ ► This is a brand new thing. It's very expensive. It is. It is. And it won't, I would even go so
00:33:22 ◼ ► far as to say, I don't think it will become successful as a product line if the only way
00:33:28 ◼ ► you can get one is to spend $3,500. - Oh, definitely. - But if you're an early adopter,
00:33:32 ◼ ► I don't look at it, and this goes back to my other point about the quality of the product.
00:33:37 ◼ ► I do not look at this and say, oh, for $3,500, you're buying a lemon. You're not. You're buying
00:33:42 ◼ ► a really kind of remarkable product regardless of whether it becomes, again, the business
00:33:57 ◼ ► I'd still be happy. Because as a way to watch movies, unbelievable. As a way to just browse
00:34:04 ◼ ► the web, it's just comfortable and beautiful. We sound mad talking about this. - I know. Well,
00:34:13 ◼ ► I would say ergonomically, I think it is a better experience if you're sitting on a couch than using
00:34:17 ◼ ► a laptop, for example. - Yeah. - Right? - Yeah. Because you're not hunched over. - You're not
00:34:22 ◼ ► hunched over looking down. You're just, you're in a relaxed position. - Yes, you have to have
00:34:26 ◼ ► neck strength. That's the thing that we're all going to be building. - Right. - I think it might
00:34:31 ◼ ► have been underscore was saying it's like how all the F1 drivers, they like focus on their neck
00:34:34 ◼ ► strength and you see them doing all these like neck exercises. - Invest in a good pillow. - But
00:34:39 ◼ ► this is again, it's like, why is it $3,500? Why is it called pro? Because this is the top end of
00:34:44 ◼ ► a product line that we don't know the bottom end of. - That they can't make the bottom end of.
00:34:48 ◼ ► - No. And like Mark Gurman was talking about like 2025 is still the goal. And like, by that point,
00:34:53 ◼ ► we'll understand what is the core of the experience. - Right. - We don't know that yet. Like what
00:34:59 ◼ ► features can you remove? - Right, because Gurman said the front facing screen with the eyes is a
00:35:06 ◼ ► cannot be removed feature, which I thought was a little bizarre, but I understand it philosophically.
00:35:12 ◼ ► - But like if you look at what Apple is pitching this product as, their framing is around it not
00:35:19 ◼ ► being a closed in experience. - Yes. - Where I was, and that is I think a lot of what makes this
00:35:26 ◼ ► product super good is it's not that like closed in experience. - I mean, it can be if you want it to
00:35:32 ◼ ► be, but this is, this is the, I know we talked about this last week a little bit, but like,
00:35:38 ◼ ► you've got to think about this. This product does everything that every other VR product does. - Yep.
00:35:43 ◼ ► - Except when they're talking to developers, then there's all this detail about immersion. - Yep.
00:35:51 ◼ ► - And how you can go from a shared space to a, basically like a full screen mode, which is like
00:35:55 ◼ ► your space to immersion, where you control the whole world, right? - They have that capability.
00:35:59 ◼ ► - It's all there. - Which is important. - It's all there, but they don't want to, they don't want to
00:36:02 ◼ ► emphasize it. - This is an AR first product. And so like the idea of that screen on the front
00:36:07 ◼ ► is about making sure people are aware of you, you're aware of people, and they have all these
00:36:12 ◼ ► sensors to allow for that, like, which is further showing what the future of this product line is to
00:36:17 ◼ ► be, which is not this closed in thing. I think ideally for them, they don't get rid of the eyes
00:36:24 ◼ ► now because in future, there'll be no screen there, right? - Right, in the long, in the long term.
00:36:28 ◼ ► - That is clear. - It may be that the eyes are, you know, are not, are not as good, or it may just be,
00:36:32 ◼ ► like I said, I think one way to frame it is they just can't make that product yet. And when it,
00:36:36 ◼ ► when they can, they will keep as much of this stuff as they can and price it lower. And it
00:36:41 ◼ ► probably won't be $300, right? Even the low end one is not going to be like that. They'll also learn,
00:36:46 ◼ ► they'll learn, they'll learn that like, oh, we don't actually need that sensor, right? - No, no,
00:36:50 ◼ ► do you need eight cameras rather than 12? Like once you've got use, once you have data of people
00:36:55 ◼ ► using these things, can you get away with dropping this sensor and dropping that sensor? Could you,
00:37:00 ◼ ► you know, like, for example, one of the things that I was told by the product manager, by the way,
00:37:04 ◼ ► did you, you go out and speak to the product manager afterwards, right? - Yes, I talked to
00:37:12 ◼ ► who worked on the team, and I found that so difficult to ask questions after having that
00:37:19 ◼ ► experience. Like my brain was like just full and I had, I just was really struggling to ask things.
00:37:25 ◼ ► - I was reminded of when I, when I had my original iPhone demo, which again, it was like six months
00:37:30 ◼ ► before it came out and they wanted, they handed me the phone and wanted to have a conversation
00:37:36 ◼ ► with me about the product while I was using it. And they would ask me questions or I would try
00:37:40 ◼ ► to ask them questions. It was like, um, uh, blah, blah, meh. - That's what I was like. - Because I was so focused
00:37:46 ◼ ► on the product. This was a little bit better because at least I got to do the product and then
00:37:49 ◼ ► talk to them. But yeah, they knew, they knew that everybody was coming out there a little dazed and
00:37:55 ◼ ► amazed and yeah, exactly. - They thought it was kind of funny. I was like, is everybody doing this?
00:37:59 ◼ ► Like, and it's like, yeah, everybody's doing this. But one of the things that we were talking about
00:38:03 ◼ ► was, uh, the fact that the, they have an infrared flood illuminator in this thing. So you could use it
00:38:10 ◼ ► at night. Well, maybe that's the thing you wouldn't have in a cheaper model. - Right. - Right? - Oh yeah, so
00:38:14 ◼ ► you got night vision. - Yes. - These are night vision goggles. - So you could use them in the dark and it would still
00:38:18 ◼ ► catch all of the finger movements, which I will also say hands up. Like I was like, I didn't think
00:38:23 ◼ ► this was going to work, right? The eye tracking and the hand control. - Oh right, because the Quest, or at least
00:38:27 ◼ ► the Quest 2. - Everything else doesn't work that well. - I was playing, I was playing with the Quest 2 in, uh,
00:38:32 ◼ ► in a back bedroom here and it was at sunset. And at one point the Quest 2 was like, it's too dark now.
00:38:37 ◼ ► I can't use, you can't do this anymore. - Before I tried this thing, I was like, I'm not sure they can
00:38:41 ◼ ► make this work. Oh, they've made that work. I'm still not sold on the gaming story. The idea of
00:38:47 ◼ ► showing like, oh hey, just play a PlayStation controller. That's not immersive. You've broken
00:38:51 ◼ ► the immersion. - My gut feeling is that they will have an MFI, essentially program for controllers
00:39:00 ◼ ► that will work with the Vision Pro if you want precise gaming. I don't think they're going to
00:39:05 ◼ ► make it themselves, but I think they will make that spec that's available for people who want to build
00:39:13 ◼ ► essentially like a MetaQuest hand controllers or Sony hand controllers for this thing. They also,
00:39:19 ◼ ► again, imagine if they, if they announced that last week, they would be, first off, it's muddying
00:39:25 ◼ ► the message. It is saying something they don't offer and they're highlighting out like a
00:39:30 ◼ ► limitation. They're taking the focus away from their hand tracking prowess, which they're very
00:39:36 ◼ ► proud of. So I would expect they would like people over the next six months to make hand tracking
00:39:41 ◼ ► focus games. Like that's what they would prefer. Because, and look, I'm not particularly opposed
00:39:47 ◼ ► to it as such because maybe it allows for a different type of game to be made. - I think
00:39:52 ◼ ► they'll also talk to developers of existing VR titles and say, can you do this here? Well,
00:39:57 ◼ ► let's try to use our tech. And that will indicate whether how highly they have to prioritize letting
00:40:03 ◼ ► third party hand tracking or third party input stuff come to it. Because yeah, if you can't,
00:40:19 ◼ ► hold onto something probably and it wouldn't, you know, if you wanted to. But Beat Saber is
00:40:36 ◼ ► - But I can also see them saying, okay, there is a certain percentage of these games that are super
00:40:42 ◼ ► intense. And for those, you buy a controller and you don't have to, it doesn't have to be a
00:40:46 ◼ ► PlayStation controller. It can just, it can be a hand, a special VR controller. And here's our API
00:40:51 ◼ ► for that. - Yeah. But you know, gaming was an asterisk in their kind of presentation as such,
00:40:58 ◼ ► like they were focusing more on like something we didn't speak about too much. And it's a phrase
00:41:02 ◼ ► that I'm trying to like integrate into my lexicon, the same as vision pro, which I keep messing up,
00:41:08 ◼ ► is spatial computing. That's how they focus this. It's not a VR AR device as such, it's a spatial
00:41:14 ◼ ► computer. Spatial computing is the idea of having windows in your world that you can see and
00:41:22 ◼ ► interact with whilst also still being able to see past to the fireplace in front of you. To be able
00:41:30 ◼ ► to have this huge window up and look down and read what's on your iPad. Like the idea of these,
00:41:37 ◼ ► I don't want to say ambient because it's more active, but it's like this idea of there is
00:41:42 ◼ ► computing just occurring around you that you can bring your Mac into this world. They did confirm
00:41:47 ◼ ► by the way, it's one screen for the Mac, which I do think is fine because of the way it works.
00:41:53 ◼ ► I was always imagining that maybe if you use the Mac, that was all you could use. But if you can
00:41:58 ◼ ► use the Mac in conjunction with the vision OS apps, and I really hope they have some kind of
00:42:05 ◼ ► great continuity stuff where you could like drag from the Mac to, right? You feel like they've
00:42:11 ◼ ► got to be able to do that. At that point, that works great for me. You have like a huge screen
00:42:15 ◼ ► for your Mac and then all of your other apps around you. It's a little like working with a
00:42:19 ◼ ► Mac where you've got an iPad next to you that's got some stuff on it. I mean, in the long run,
00:42:22 ◼ ► I would love the idea of being able to bring up a Mac and have it show you like the other spaces.
00:42:29 ◼ ► I have no doubt that there'll be a developer that will make that up. Yeah, I just, I think that at
00:42:34 ◼ ► some point Apple will need to, if that's going to happen, that Apple will do it. And I think that
00:42:39 ◼ ► could be very interesting. I also have that moment where I think to myself, at some point, maybe this
00:42:47 ◼ ► thing will just run the Mac on it. I mean, they don't have the capability to do that right now.
00:42:52 ◼ ► They're obviously pushing this thing to the limit. When they have spare power in the future,
00:42:57 ◼ ► right? Like then yes, in theory, it could do that. But maybe, hey, maybe they, maybe we won't care
00:43:03 ◼ ► about Mac OS. Maybe not. Maybe vision OS is the future, right? We don't know right now. I
00:43:07 ◼ ► definitely saw a take that said, this seems like more, almost more like a Mac replacement than
00:43:12 ◼ ► anything else. And I think that there's something to that. I think it's not for everybody, but you
00:43:21 ◼ ► Somebody said, it's almost like a really smart display. And there's some, it is that, it's a lot
00:43:30 ◼ ► of other things too, but it is that. And if working like, okay, we're in my office here.
00:43:35 ◼ ► I am a person who works, leaving the animals aside for a minute, if it's possible. I am working alone
00:43:42 ◼ ► all day in an office. I could see a scenario where instead of having my studio display,
00:43:51 ◼ ► I used a virtual display with the Vision Pro. I'm not saying I would do that. It would be a thing
00:43:57 ◼ ► that I would definitely test if, you know, when I review this presumably next year, that would be a
00:44:02 ◼ ► thing that I would test, but I could see it as a possibility of having that. It wouldn't be the
00:44:08 ◼ ► same if I was interacting. I think one of the challenges here is that it is a still a solitary
00:44:14 ◼ ► device, even with the pass through. And they pushed it a little bit, but like the bottom line is
00:44:17 ◼ ► Lauren and I are not going to be watching movies together on this thing because you can't.
00:44:21 ◼ ► You'd have to buy two and then they would, and then SharePlay and stuff like that. It's a single
00:44:27 ◼ ► user experience in that way. But I have a lot of my time that is single user when I'm focused on
00:44:34 ◼ ► my work and the idea of being able to work in my office or drop it down and be in an environment,
00:44:40 ◼ ► but have my Macs and have apps and do all of that kind of thing. I can see that as a potential use
00:44:46 ◼ ► case, not necessarily the use case, but I can definitely see it as a possibility of extending
00:44:50 ◼ ► my Mac still, still using my Mac, but having it be a part of a larger thing. But in the hotel rooms
00:44:57 ◼ ► and airports and stuff like that, where it's like, you don't have the room and you don't have your
00:45:02 ◼ ► setup. That's also really interesting. We don't know what it's like to use for an extended period
00:45:07 ◼ ► of time. We don't. Because I know that if I use any VR headset currently from one of the couple
00:45:11 ◼ ► of hours, I don't feel great. And while this was very comfortable for that half an hour we used it,
00:45:18 ◼ ► I left it feeling strange, but I think I was just overwhelmed. For the record, mine was not
00:45:26 ◼ ► comfortable the entire time. I had intense pressure on my forehead the entire time. I couldn't get it
00:45:30 ◼ ► to balance. I think my light shield thing just didn't fit my face and everything I did with the,
00:45:38 ◼ ► I adjusted all the straps and everything I could not get. Now I've had that experience with the
00:45:46 ◼ ► Also, they're going to have more of these shields. They emphasize that they only have a few sizes
00:45:52 ◼ ► right now and that they're going to be more sizes. And that's what the face ID scanning does. The
00:45:55 ◼ ► reason you do the scanning, I talk about that. They will have a range of the light shields that
00:46:02 ◼ ► go inside, which is what makes contact with your face. So the way it's going to work is you're going
00:46:06 ◼ ► to go into the Apple store and one of the things they're going to do is they're either going to
00:46:09 ◼ ► scan or you're going to use the Apple store app to scan your face. And it uses that to say, oh,
00:46:13 ◼ ► you should use the, you know, I don't even know what they're going to call them, size eight.
00:46:18 ◼ ► Like the Apple watch loop bands. Yeah, exactly. And then that'll be the one and they'll probably
00:46:24 ◼ ► have them around to serve for you to test in the store. If you order it online, you would just use
00:46:30 ◼ ► whatever they recommend and have it, have it come to you. I don't know. I don't know if you,
00:46:33 ◼ ► they said that you will be able to order it online, but you don't have to go pick it up.
00:46:42 ◼ ► That you'll scan your face in the Apple store app and it will use that. Do you know how the
00:46:47 ◼ ► prescription lenses are working from a store perspective? I think, okay. So legally, at least
00:46:53 ◼ ► in the US, and this is only in the US for now, prescription lenses are a medical device. And so
00:46:59 ◼ ► you have to have, it's just like how I got my Quest lenses from a third party optical store.
00:47:04 ◼ ► So you won't buy those from Apple? So you don't buy those from Apple, you buy them from Zeiss or
00:47:08 ◼ ► from a Zeiss like retailer that stocks them and you will present them with your valid prescription.
00:47:15 ◼ ► And then they will sell you the lenses. This is why I think if I try and get one of these early,
00:47:20 ◼ ► I'm going to need to get contact lenses. Cause I don't think Zeiss is going to accept my
00:47:24 ◼ ► filthy British prescription. Again, or yeah, or you're going to have to just come, you're going
00:47:28 ◼ ► to need big American optometry buddy. Yeah, but someone's going to need my prescription.
00:47:37 ◼ ► Put posted on the internet and say, here's my eye prescription. Who's a close match? And
00:47:40 ◼ ► they'll volunteer to do it. David in the Discord has a good question that we should specify here,
00:47:45 ◼ ► which is, is it multi-user or like an iPhone and iPad? The answer is it is a little like the Mac
00:47:52 ◼ ► in the sense that you have a user and then there's a guest user that you can say, now I look at this
00:47:57 ◼ ► and I think guest users is okay, but like you could probably get more couples to be willing
00:48:02 ◼ ► to buy this thing. If you could have two users instead of a temporary guest user is basically
00:48:07 ◼ ► like it's your friends trying it on install, try on it. So you don't have to recalibrate
00:48:14 ◼ ► because they, they, it saves all of your settings and then you put it in guest mode and then it,
00:48:18 ◼ ► it does the calibration and then do the whole thing. Yeah. So you can do that. So if your
00:48:21 ◼ ► friend comes over and wants to try it, you put it in guest mode. The lenses that you put in as well
00:48:25 ◼ ► are magnetic. So you could have a swabble. So you could have your partner's lenses and then the guest
00:48:30 ◼ ► mode could just be set to that one person. Like it's not an impossible thing. I do think that
00:48:36 ◼ ► like this is a device which is complicated for multiple people to use, even though it's so
00:48:41 ◼ ► expensive, it would be nice if it could. Yeah. Yeah. I agree. I just, it's one of those things
00:48:46 ◼ ► where I could see that you might have this, like we're going to share this one and it's, it's at
00:48:50 ◼ ► least what Apple says now is that's not going to be the case. There's sort of you. And then if you
00:48:54 ◼ ► have somebody who wants to use it, you can put it in guest mode for them. And that person would have
00:48:59 ◼ ► to recalibrate every time. Cause I bet that's just how guest mode works. I would think so. So I had
00:49:03 ◼ ► a few extra details that I picked up throughout the week. Developer kits are going to be coming.
00:49:16 ◼ ► there will be developer kits. So the way it's going to work is they're going to do a thing
00:49:24 ◼ ► Singapore, and Tokyo. You're on it. Where developers are going to be able to go and work
00:49:29 ◼ ► with the hardware in an Apple location. You schedule all your time and all of that. But yeah,
00:49:34 ◼ ► it sounds like after that, when there are more of them available, they're going to do, it's going to
00:49:39 ◼ ► be like the other developer kits have been where you're going to be a developer. You're going to
00:49:43 ◼ ► apply and it's not going to be a random thing, right? They're going to look at what your apps
00:49:47 ◼ ► are or what you, what app you say you're building. They're going to make some judgments and they're
00:49:51 ◼ ► going to approve people to get it. It's going to be a limited supply, but that there will be
00:49:56 ◼ ► developers who will be able to get these because obviously they want that to be the case. And I
00:50:01 ◼ ► have a theory, which is in some of the videos at WWDC, there is a little dongle up at the connector,
00:50:08 ◼ ► the magnetic connector up at the top of the, it's by the pods, the audio pods. Why do they have to
00:50:15 ◼ ► name that audio pods? Pods. It's like earpods. They're earpods or AirPods or pods. My only
00:50:21 ◼ ► criticism at the moment is that the Vision Pro has too many brands inside of it. They over buzzworded
00:50:27 ◼ ► this product. Yeah, yeah. EyeSight and yeah, there's too much stuff going on. They're running wild there.
00:50:33 ◼ ► So there's a dongle in the videos that is, it looks like it's power and USB out. And people
00:50:43 ◼ ► are like, what is that? Because that's not how you're supposed to charge it is up at the headset.
00:50:48 ◼ ► You're supposed to charge it down at the battery. And my theory is it's for development. That's how
00:50:54 ◼ ► you get data out as well. My theory is you tether it to a Mac when you're developing software and
00:50:58 ◼ ► that the ones that they're, I mean, maybe not, and maybe it's just a developer unit inside of Apple.
00:51:02 ◼ ► But that's my theory is that probably what's going to happen is this thing is going to run
00:51:07 ◼ ► a beta version of Vision OS, but maybe limited. But that's what it's going to be. And maybe not.
00:51:14 ◼ ► I mean, it's out there now. This is the thing of like, so I was talking to underscore about this,
00:51:18 ◼ ► who by the way, wrote a wonderful article that was put in the show notes today about kind of like
00:51:22 ◼ ► why he is going to be a developer for this and like what that means. And I just thought it was
00:51:27 ◼ ► like, he calls it a developers view of vision pro, which I just really liked that as a framing.
00:51:32 ◼ ► He is committing to be there day one. And so I think it's worth reading if you are thinking
00:51:40 ◼ ► the Apple silicon developer kit was a Mac mini with a chip inside. That was never a shipping
00:51:44 ◼ ► product. How final is this going to be? But they hadn't announced any products when they did the
00:51:51 ◼ ► developer kit, right? Whereas this product has been announced. My guess is that it's going to be
00:51:55 ◼ ► pre-release hardware that they're going to have to return, but that it will, and there's a question
00:52:03 ◼ ► of whether they will just limit what the OS is capable of because the stuff's not ready and you
00:52:07 ◼ ► know everything's going to leak, right? Like everybody's going to, who gets one of these,
00:52:12 ◼ ► somebody's going to have a friend who's going to get it to the verge or whatever, right? Like all
00:52:16 ◼ ► that stuff's going to happen. So they're going to contain it a little bit, but I do think it will be
00:52:19 ◼ ► basically what the final hardware is going to be, barring a little bit. And maybe even required it
00:52:26 ◼ ► to be tethered to the Mac that is attached to the same developer account that has Vision Pro
00:52:33 ◼ ► authorized and then they do it. Neither of us had great experiences with the Faceline personas.
00:52:39 ◼ ► Mine was buggy and I didn't really like it very much. Mine was the uncanniest of valleys. I was
00:52:47 ◼ ► one of those people who was optimistic about it because after the keynote I heard a bunch of
00:52:53 ◼ ► people who were like, "Oh, that digital persona, ooh." And I was like, "Yeah." I mean even on the
00:52:58 ◼ ► episode we did last week, I was like, "You know, we'll see, we'll see." And then I saw it and I
00:53:03 ◼ ► thought, "No, no, it is, this looks like a person, but they're not, and they're moving their face,
00:53:10 ◼ ► but not quite in a human way." And I really... It looked like a video game. Like they looked
00:53:16 ◼ ► like a video game character. Yeah, and not quite right. Which is how video game characters often
00:53:20 ◼ ► look. It's uncanny. There's just something in the eyes that isn't right. Mine was broken,
00:53:24 ◼ ► like at one point the eyes moved in different directions. Something that I didn't mention in
00:53:29 ◼ ► Cortex, but I remembered when talking to someone about it, the spatial persona I was talking to,
00:53:33 ◼ ► I don't think had any hair, but not in like this person was bald in that the skin just cut off at
00:53:39 ◼ ► the top and there was no hair. There was clearly a connection issue for me with that part, but in
00:53:45 ◼ ► the State of the Union, they did something Apple very rarely does. They showed something they're
00:53:50 ◼ ► working on, which was spatial personas. So the idea that like there is a future version of this
00:53:56 ◼ ► technology where these people will look even more realistic and have like volume to them. And will
00:54:02 ◼ ► they be out in the world instead of in a box? Well, there's no box around them. Okay. But so
00:54:09 ◼ ► it looks like that you could kind of like just have them hanging out, but it's still just a
00:54:13 ◼ ► disembodied head. Because that's the one thing that surprised me that I thought was kind of
00:54:17 ◼ ► weird was that not only is this persona not great, but it's in a FaceTime window. Yeah.
00:54:24 ◼ ► Looks I'm showing Jason an image from the MaxRumors article that's in the show. This is in the
00:54:29 ◼ ► State of the Union. So they're like in a portal kind of hovering. They're kind of like, they're
00:54:33 ◼ ► still just hanging out, right? It's still just like head and shoulders hanging out. And this
00:54:36 ◼ ► person has a hand where they're pointing. But they're like in a place. But they're kind of like
00:54:40 ◼ ► fading, you know, you kind of apparently they have more volume. Right. Clearly, this is, you know,
00:54:49 ◼ ► one of those things that they wanted to show but is not ready to ship. And I wonder if when it's
00:54:54 ◼ ► when the thing ships, will it be like this? Or will it be like, who knows how quick will they
00:54:57 ◼ ► get there? I think also that they're absolutely going to let you create an avatar that's like an
00:55:04 ◼ ► emoji. They just didn't want to show it. No, because it's not impressive. It's not impressive.
00:55:08 ◼ ► This is their impressive new technology for this. And the truth is that yeah, after having seen it,
00:55:13 ◼ ► I would probably choose to just use an emoji instead. But they've got to start and maybe
00:55:19 ◼ ► in the future, it will look good enough. But right now, it didn't work for me. Yeah, I agree.
00:55:23 ◼ ► Anything more on the Vision Pro today? Obviously, we're going to be talking about this constantly.
00:55:30 ◼ ► I wanted to say briefly about the dinosaur experience that happened at the end. I thought
00:55:36 ◼ ► it was really funny. So I think because I was a little late getting up, I sat there watching as
00:55:41 ◼ ► the big dinosaur came closer. And they're like, you should get up there and interact with a
00:55:45 ◼ ► dinosaur. And I walked up toward the dinosaur and I ended up inside the dinosaur. Okay. And it kind
00:55:51 ◼ ► of like it kind of like grayed out. And I realized that I was kind of like, and I was like, you had a
00:55:55 ◼ ► failure too. I did have a dinosaur failure. And then I didn't experience, I feel like I was too
00:56:02 ◼ ► close. And so it wasn't really reacting to me anymore. Also, it was a big dinosaur and I didn't
00:56:06 ◼ ► want to interact with it because it could kill me. They told me to get up basically as soon as
00:56:10 ◼ ► that started. So maybe they learned from your experience. Yeah, because I got up too late and
00:56:14 ◼ ► I got too close and then it popped out. That's a shame because that was the most impressive part
00:56:18 ◼ ► of the demo for me was that dinosaur walking into the room and I was terrified of it. And that was
00:56:23 ◼ ► like, oh yeah, in this part, we've gone past the I can't tell what's real anymore kind of stage,
00:56:30 ◼ ► which is really what you want. And to be able to deliver that kind of experience in an AR
00:56:37 ◼ ► environment, not in a VR environment was very impressive. I think that's why it's so impressive
00:56:41 ◼ ► is that you're in what you perceive to be a real space. And then there's this thing in there that's
00:56:47 ◼ ► unreal. I think my favorite moment was the sizzle reel of the 180 degree immersive video because
00:56:55 ◼ ► as a sports guy, especially, it was just like, this is, I mean, it's so much closer to what's
00:57:04 ◼ ► going on, that dunk and the ground ball and in the baseball game, like, oh, that was just really good
00:57:11 ◼ ► stuff. And then the other stuff, I mean, being up on a cliff and looking down, you know, deep down
00:57:17 ◼ ► into the cliff and all that, that was also very impressive too. The sports part was the most
00:57:20 ◼ ► impressive part of that because it didn't have the kind of like, you know, it starts with like
00:57:26 ◼ ► Alicia Keys is singing at you and that just doesn't feel real because she wouldn't do that.
00:57:29 ◼ ► But the sports thing, they're doing their thing, they're not paying any attention to the camera.
00:57:34 ◼ ► And so you just feel like you're just hanging out and watching the sports. And like, I think that
00:57:38 ◼ ► there is a big market in that. - I agree. I think that that's going to be one of those places, if
00:57:44 ◼ ► baked in after. And the question is like, is it only from one perspective? Can you switch to
00:57:49 ◼ ► different perspectives? How do you, can you stream it live? Because, you know, is that,
00:57:53 ◼ ► and what's the quality if you stream it live? Because you're gonna have to compress that video,
00:57:57 ◼ ► you've got stereo, so it's gotta be two images. What's the frame rate? You know, what's the
00:58:02 ◼ ► resolution? I have questions about like, if I, can I get that in my home and stream it live-ish,
00:58:14 ◼ ► I got lots of questions, but if they can make that into a product, and MLS might be the thing that
00:58:19 ◼ ► they try. - Oh, I'm sure they will. - And it's not gonna be everywhere. It's gonna be like, maybe
00:58:23 ◼ ► there's an MLS game that is gonna be in 3D immersive starting, you know, next season when
00:58:30 ◼ ► this thing is shipping. And maybe there's a Friday night baseball game that is in there.
00:58:36 ◼ ► 'Cause they're probably only gonna have a limited number of cameras that they can even shoot this
00:58:40 ◼ ► with. - And you could do it at concerts too. - Absolutely. - Like music still works. - And
00:58:44 ◼ ► then it's the Apple Music Experience too, right? - In the demo, you're just in a recording studio
00:58:49 ◼ ► of Alicia Keys. It's like, that doesn't feel right, but you could like, just put one of these
00:58:53 ◼ ► down at Ed Sheeran concert, and you're at the front row, and now you're just watching it,
00:58:56 ◼ ► and he's doing his thing. - Yeah, I would love to. - All of this is like, it's such a smart move,
00:59:00 ◼ ► because it's like, for sports, I would pay more than what the pay-per-view costs, but not as much
00:59:05 ◼ ► as the tickets. And now you've got this middle tier to charge people. But like, if, you know,
00:59:09 ◼ ► pay-per-view's $10, tickets 100, I'd pay 50 to have this immersive experience, where I feel like
00:59:14 ◼ ► I'm actually sitting and watching the game. - Immersive, yeah, and for a concert, immersive
00:59:19 ◼ ► on demand. Like, you know, I can't make the concert, I'm too far away, or I can't make that
00:59:24 ◼ ► day, but you can, you know, two days later, you can watch that concert, and it's like you're in
00:59:28 ◼ ► the front row. That would be great. - Infinite ticket sales, right? - It is. - There is like,
00:59:31 ◼ ► there, usually you're bound by the size of the stadium. Well, everyone that couldn't have got
00:59:36 ◼ ► a Taylor Swift ticket could watch it in immersive video instead, if they wanted to. - Right, and it's
00:59:42 ◼ ► going to be a different experience. This is a thing that came up in a couple of places,
01:00:00 ◼ ► because James Cameron's been a 3D, like, he cares about 3D at a level that almost nobody else in the
01:00:05 ◼ ► movie industry cares about. Most 3D movies are shot in 2D because it's way easier to shoot in 2D,
01:00:10 ◼ ► and then they are processed into 3D. And they can still be very impressive, but they're,
01:00:14 ◼ ► you know, James Cameron is like at the forefront of this. He really cares about this stuff. So that
01:00:17 ◼ ► was great. But it's also a movie. Not only is it in a rectangle, but, you know, I'm going to get
01:00:23 ◼ ► back to my old film class in college, right? It's cuts and framing. It's the director chooses what
01:00:30 ◼ ► you see. They choose the camera angles and the cuts and the framing, and it all goes into the
01:00:35 ◼ ► storytelling of the decisions by the director. The immersive stuff, it's like you're there.
01:00:43 ◼ ► And I think that that's interesting because, like, I watched, the last concert film I watched was,
01:00:48 ◼ ► there's a 1975 concert on Amazon Prime Video. It's great. From there, it's, I think, Madison Square
01:00:54 ◼ ► Garden on their latest tour. And it's fun. But if I were watching that in immersive from the front
01:01:01 ◼ ► row, I wouldn't get the cuts. You know, it cuts to the audience. It cuts to close up on Maddie Healy.
01:01:09 ◼ ► It backs up and shows it. It shows the drummer. It's like the director is showing you what the
01:01:14 ◼ ► director thinks that you should see in that moment. And if I was watching the immersive
01:01:19 ◼ ► video of it, I would be at the front of the stage and I could look where I wanted. And it's
01:01:24 ◼ ► not necessarily a better experience. It's just a different one because now I'm the director.
01:01:29 ◼ ► If I am amazed by the fans bouncing next to me, I can watch the fans bouncing next to me whenever I
01:01:34 ◼ ► want. Or I can look up on stage and look at Maddie or I can go over and look at the saxophone player
01:01:40 ◼ ► or whatever at any time, like when I go to a real concert, right? It's just different. And sports
01:01:48 ◼ ► will be like that too. And again, Ben Thompson said something that I thought was great, which is
01:01:52 ◼ ► like, the difference is I'm just sitting courtside and there's no technology in my way. I'm just
01:01:57 ◼ ► there. And if I want to see what the score is, I look at the scoreboard and like that says it all.
01:02:05 ◼ ► There's no overlay with the score or anything. The point is that you're there. So I feel like
01:02:13 ◼ ► to be made, but what it isn't is they could do a 3D version of a soccer match and maybe they will.
01:02:18 ◼ ► But what I think they're also going to try is this immersion thing where it's like, you're now
01:02:24 ◼ ► at a really good seat at the soccer match, or you're right behind the goal at the soccer match,
01:02:29 ◼ ► or whatever. And maybe you can choose where you are. I think that would be interesting because it
01:02:33 ◼ ► might get a little boring if you're in one place. Maybe you flip around where you are and you can
01:02:37 ◼ ► choose that. But it's just different. And it's going to be interesting to see what happens with
01:02:43 ◼ ► that because Apple, with all of its ties to the entertainment industry and to the sports industry
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01:04:32 ◼ ► You have had a busy week. I have. I just got more tea by the way. I know. I watched Jason. We just
01:04:38 ◼ ► took an ad break, especially as an upgrade. I feel bad. Normally you don't know that I've left you
01:04:43 ◼ ► when you're reading the ad. Well also I feel like you need to, you're getting the typical
01:04:48 ◼ ► like gladiator experience that I'm through where I have to sit here the whole time. Need more liquid?
01:04:54 ◼ ► Can't do it. Need to use the bathroom? Ain't happening. Mike sits here in this chair for the
01:04:58 ◼ ► entire time every week. You know you can literally take a break at any point. Nope. I will not. This
01:05:02 ◼ ► is, this is the way I am. You know, sometimes it just keeps me alive. You've been busy this week
01:05:07 ◼ ► because you have also had to review not one but two Macintosh computers. Yeah, you know, normally
01:05:12 ◼ ► I would have spent the rest of the week after we had our couple of days in San Jose. Normally
01:05:17 ◼ ► we would, Dan Morin and I would spend the rest of the week scouring the videos on the website for
01:05:25 ◼ ► tidbits and that didn't happen this time because I spent all of my time with a Mac Studio with an
01:05:34 ◼ ► M2 Ultra processor and a 15-inch MacBook Air which is actually right in front of you right now. I can
01:05:41 ◼ ► see it. I mean it's big. I saw it. What is that? Starlight? Yeah, that's Starlight. I mean I also
01:05:46 ◼ ► saw one of them. I saw this and I had the demo experience in the hands-on area. I mean there's
01:05:51 ◼ ► nothing to say about it. Okay, I had to write two reviews of products that are, you know, not that
01:05:58 ◼ ► surprising. The newest thing in it is that we hadn't seen the M2 Ultra before and the answer is
01:06:03 ◼ ► the M2 Ultra is faster in the same way that the M1 Ultra is faster than the rest of the M1s.
01:06:08 ◼ ► It's not much of a surprise. I mean this isn't a huge difference. Does this Mac Studio have more
01:06:12 ◼ ► IO? Or is it just the Mac Pro that got more IO? It's just the Mac Pro. Okay. So obviously the
01:06:17 ◼ ► chip is capable of having many many many many more Thunderbolt ports on it plus a bridge that
01:06:23 ◼ ► takes it to many many many PCI cards and, you know, they're just using the standard Mac Studio.
01:06:30 ◼ ► So on the Ultra you get the what four USB-C in the back plus two in the front plus there's USB-A
01:06:36 ◼ ► in the back. Thunderbolt, right? Or sorry, yeah Thunderbolt. They're Thunderbolt in front and back
01:06:40 ◼ ► and on the Macs they're Thunderbolt only on back and they're USB on front. Okay. So there's a lot
01:06:46 ◼ ► of IO anyway but they didn't change any of that. Really the big change in the Mac Studio is the
01:06:53 ◼ ► chip is an M2 instead of an M1. I said in my review if you've got an M1 Mac Studio you're fine.
01:06:59 ◼ ► Yeah. It's, you know, it's M1 to M2. It's incremental. I don't think anybody, we've been
01:07:04 ◼ ► saying this all along, if you've got an M1 and you look at the M2 and like well should I update for
01:07:08 ◼ ► the speed? That is not a reason. It's faster but like the people who should buy this are people who
01:07:13 ◼ ► and I said this in the review, people who still on Intel, people who maybe have an M1 but it's like a
01:07:21 ◼ ► lower end model like a Mac Mini or something like that and they want more power or it's people who
01:07:26 ◼ ► like saw that M2 Macs and said I'm gonna get the MacBook Pro and I know multiple people who have a
01:07:32 ◼ ► MacBook Pro tethered to a monitor and mostly just use it as a desktop and would say you know the
01:07:38 ◼ ► Mac Studio is nice and you could sell that MacBook Pro and buy a Mac Studio instead and put it on
01:07:44 ◼ ► your studio display. So yeah. Anyway it's that. Oh and the big news that all the Mac nerds want to
01:07:51 ◼ ► know which is is it quieter? And the answer is yes it is quieter. It is quieter. So the test for me
01:07:58 ◼ ► was when I was reviewing the M1 Mac Studio, I had it out on my desk and I was not testing for noise
01:08:05 ◼ ► and I thought to myself what's that sound? And it was the fans on the Mac Studio and when I put it
01:08:11 ◼ ► under my desk I didn't hear them anymore and that's where my Mac Studio lives now. But with the M2,
01:08:15 ◼ ► I put it on my desk and listened for a fan and I didn't hear it and the only way I could hear the
01:08:20 ◼ ► fan is either to turn it around 180 degrees so I was listening to the back of it or to go around
01:08:25 ◼ ► to the back of my desk and listen. There is a fan noise there but it is quieter. That's the best way
01:08:30 ◼ ► I can quantify it is it's quiet enough that if it's on my desk and I'm in front of it I can't hear
01:08:35 ◼ ► the fan and that fan noise is consistent. I was trying to I think it'll crank up if you really
01:08:40 ◼ ► blast the GPU and the CPU. I tried to blast the GPU and it didn't get any louder so it's just
01:08:48 ◼ ► and then I had my M1 over next to it. It's actually over there. You can see it. My M1 Mac Studio and I
01:08:54 ◼ ► could hear it from my chair even though it's over by the wall now. So it is appreciably quieter.
01:09:00 ◼ ► If that was the thing that was freaking you out about the Mac Studio is that the fan noise was a
01:09:04 ◼ ► bit too much, they fixed it and Apple confirmed that we made some changes to the cooling system.
01:09:11 ◼ ► They wouldn't say what they were. They wouldn't quantify them in any way so the best I can tell
01:09:15 ◼ ► you is they're quieter and I couldn't hear it in a fairly quiet room with it facing me so the fan is
01:09:23 ◼ ► pointing out the back. That was enough to hide the audio, hide that hissing sound and that's not true
01:09:31 ◼ ► of the M1 so it's definitely quieter than the M1. The fact that this product exists, the second
01:09:37 ◼ ► version, has sold me on it being my next computer. It's not going to go away now I think. And that
01:09:44 ◼ ► was my worry of like was this just a stop gap and now like they just don't need it anymore?
01:09:50 ◼ ► Like we weren't sure right? But now I mean really this is the Mac Pro now. This is the Mac Pro now.
01:09:57 ◼ ► The Mac Pro so that's one of the things that I hid in my review was it's always been that the
01:10:03 ◼ ► Mac Pro has been the highest end Mac and it may be again right there were those rumors that they
01:10:06 ◼ ► were working on like a four chip version of the M2 and then they killed it and it isn't going to
01:10:12 ◼ ► happen and so because the Ultra is two Max's put together. It was like was it an extreme?
01:10:19 ◼ ► Yeah I mean I think Mark Gurman kind of made up a name for it but like the idea was they were
01:10:22 ◼ ► going to use that Ultra Fusion technology to connect four together and then that didn't happen.
01:10:26 ◼ ► It could happen in the future and if it does too much it might be well that's the thing it could
01:10:30 ◼ ► happen and if it does happen it'll happen on the Mac Pro not in the Mac Studio. But I think the
01:10:37 ◼ ► truth is that for at least for now the Mac Studio with the Ultra chip and the Mac Pro are identical.
01:10:43 ◼ ► They're identical in every way that is about the chip. They're identical in GPU configurations
01:10:50 ◼ ► and RAM. They're identical in performance. Only the IO is different. Only the fact that you can
01:10:57 ◼ ► put PCI cards in there and that there are more Thunderbolt ports out and the fact that it's huge
01:11:03 ◼ ► and expensive. Separate the two. So if you want the fastest Mac money can buy and you don't need
01:11:08 ◼ ► that extra IO you can just buy a Mac Studio and you get it. So the Mac Studio is I think what I
01:11:13 ◼ ► said in the review is still the champion. It's a co-champion now but it's still the champion
01:11:17 ◼ ► and I like that about it and so I think that's a reason for people like you to be like okay I
01:11:23 ◼ ► view that as being Apple thinks most people should not buy the Mac Pro even if they need
01:11:28 ◼ ► maximum performance they should just buy the Mac Studio. The way I think of it now is like the
01:11:32 ◼ ► Mac Studio is is the Mac Pro. The Mac Pro is like the specialist Mac because it really is like do
01:11:39 ◼ ► you need PCI expansion? Like that has to be internal. Right right and the since graphics and
01:11:47 ◼ ► RAM are taken out of the equation now it is just about all it is it's storage it's networking and
01:11:52 ◼ ► it's these specialized IO cards that are used in audio and video and we saw it I mean they
01:11:56 ◼ ► they exist there are people who spend seven eight nine thousand dollars per card and put five cards
01:12:01 ◼ ► in there and they're doing scoring of an orchestra and it's better to do it on one computer than three
01:12:06 ◼ ► and now they can and like that's all great right but it is so specialized. But it's like realistically
01:12:11 ◼ ► I don't know how long that even exists as a thing like Thunderbolt can handle this. Well I have had
01:12:17 ◼ ► that thought which is I wonder if in the long run the answer is you make some modifications to the
01:12:23 ◼ ► Mac Studio that'll and you sell a breakout box that does this because the Mac Studio can do all
01:12:31 ◼ ► those things too right you would just need a chassis with PCI cards and a Thunderbolt cable
01:12:36 ◼ ► that's or or realistically or several yeah I'm sure that there are specifics and I'm bungling
01:12:43 ◼ ► but like do you that's all it is they can make a spec or they can make a special connector yeah
01:12:49 ◼ ► that was for their special box and then they don't even need to sell a Mac Pro anymore.
01:12:54 ◼ ► I think honestly I think they're amortizing the cost of designing that brand new Mac Pro
01:12:58 ◼ ► in closure and they might as well do it and they got the rack mountable version and they're like
01:13:02 ◼ ► very it's pretty and they're very popular. It's a statement they're making a statement with it.
01:13:05 ◼ ► Yeah and there's nothing wrong with that but and I people who are upset about Mac Pros not having
01:13:10 ◼ ► the graphics expansion and all that I think we all knew this was coming I don't think it's
01:13:14 ◼ ► necessarily forever I think it's possible that they would try to bring some of that back down
01:13:19 ◼ ► the road but I think it's not likely I think this is probably what it is and you know the fact is
01:13:27 ◼ ► Apple can't and won't make computers for every single use case and so on the talk show last week
01:13:36 ◼ ► which we were all at you know they're doing their marketing spin but I think there's also truth in
01:13:43 ◼ ► there too which is yes they can't scale like PCs can in certain ways at the same time their
01:13:52 ◼ ► argument is they have chosen a different path and that Apple silicon Macs are have diverged from the
01:14:00 ◼ ► priorities of Intel PCs in lots of ways and this is the path they have chosen and you know if
01:14:13 ◼ ► Yeah it's like look if Apple seems to be okay. They do not need to make a Mac to train machine
01:14:19 ◼ ► learning models they don't have to do that they don't the PCs can do that and the Macs can use
01:14:25 ◼ ► the output. Yeah I had a funny moment where there was a demo of the Mac Pro and they were talking
01:14:29 ◼ ► about using Nuke and they were going to do it's very impressive machine learning model where
01:14:41 ◼ ► that were representative of the whole motion and then they built a machine learning model
01:14:46 ◼ ► and outputted all the frames and so you get their point there was that you can use machine learning
01:14:52 ◼ ► to further the creative process so there's like an actual artist who does the hand drawing and then
01:14:57 ◼ ► the machine learning expands it so they don't have to draw every frame. Because they have the neural
01:15:02 ◼ ► engine. That's very cool however in the demo at one point they said now I'm not actually going to
01:15:09 ◼ ► train the model here because that'll take a couple hours and I thought ah there it is that that model
01:15:15 ◼ ► training happens on the GPU and even on a Mac Pro they can only have whatever it is 70 odd GPUs and
01:15:22 ◼ ► the fact is that training would probably not happen on that Mac Pro right that training would happen
01:15:26 ◼ ► on a PC that's packed with GPUs and they would do the training there in less time and you're right
01:15:32 ◼ ► Apple doesn't have to there's this moment that I think people get to where they're like aha
01:15:37 ◼ ► and for that you need to use a PC and it's like you know what Apple should not be in the business
01:15:43 ◼ ► of filling every ecological niche they really shouldn't and we could argue like oh but they're
01:15:47 ◼ ► going to lose this market it's like well they've lost a lot of markets there are a lot of markets
01:15:51 ◼ ► that Apple is not in anymore and they're not getting them back and it's okay as long as they're
01:15:55 ◼ ► serving you know the markets that make sense for Apple and this is a training is like a finite
01:16:00 ◼ ► thing that every user is going to need even the pro users like once enough models have been created
01:16:05 ◼ ► you just use the models that exist I don't think that into the future everyone's going to be
01:16:10 ◼ ► training their own AI models like you're just taking advantage of what is they are created to
01:16:16 ◼ ► be used for what you need them for but the technology can change as well and the way these
01:16:21 ◼ ► things could be trained could end up being different in the future we don't know right now
01:16:25 ◼ ► but I don't believe that Apple should make a Mac Pro for this very one specific purpose I don't
01:16:32 ◼ ► think that's something they have to do and I know that there are prominent people out there who we
01:16:36 ◼ ► know and have been on the show who talk about about like the you know the idea of GPUs for gaming and
01:16:40 ◼ ► things like that the truth is it's not really a relevant market for Apple it just isn't no I mean
01:16:44 ◼ ► we spoke about it already they're trying to find other ways to bring gaming to the Mac and it will
01:16:48 ◼ ► work it will work perfectly fine yeah but the idea I mean I think I think what Apple Silicon has done
01:16:54 ◼ ► and you can disagree with this or not but in terms of whether you think it's good but you can't
01:16:58 ◼ ► dispute that it's true is by focusing on Apple Silicon they're focusing on design choices that
01:17:04 ◼ ► they made that involve the the mobile space right it started as an iPhone went to the iPad they've
01:17:11 ◼ ► they modified it but like a lot of those design choices that make it so good preclude it from
01:17:17 ◼ ► behaving in the way that a traditional Intel PC would Apple has chosen this path and they've
01:17:23 ◼ ► benefited from it and part of that is saying we're not gonna be profiling like an Intel PC in these
01:17:32 ◼ ► ways and you just have to deal with it and like they made their decisions and it's benefited them
01:17:38 ◼ ► but it will leave things behind where where you're like but what about more GPUs and they're like
01:17:43 ◼ ► you know I wrote a piece a while ago I can't remember how long ago now but basically what I
01:17:47 ◼ ► said was is it worth it if you think about Apple's whole chip design you know there's people down in
01:17:52 ◼ ► the bunker with Johnny Shruti if you come to them and you're like you know what I know that you've
01:17:58 ◼ ► gotten all this way because of your integrated GPUs in memory but I want to sell the least
01:18:05 ◼ ► popular Mac in existence and I want you to make a special custom thing that throws everything that
01:18:13 ◼ ► you've done up to now away so that I can have GPUs for a very tiny fraction of the people who will
01:18:19 ◼ ► buy the least popular Mac in existence which is the Mac itself our smallest computing product
01:18:25 ◼ ► line at the moment like how could they ever motivate the chip design team to change all
01:18:37 ◼ ► of their philosophy for this tiny part of the Mac Pro like I just don't see it I mean it's not like
01:18:44 ◼ ► I mean it's incredibly powerful still though like yes you could tune it differently right oh man
01:18:49 ◼ ► so many incredibly GPUs on that on that ultra model it's just it's wild but like that the
01:18:55 ◼ ► Apple silicon chip ethos and the power per watt and all of that that they're focusing on has
01:19:00 ◼ ► enabled them to make a bigger version of what I think is the best laptop Apple's ever made which
01:19:05 ◼ ► is the M2 MacBook Air right so you also have the 15 inch I do there you know this is the best laptop
01:19:12 ◼ ► but it's a bit bigger and like yeah now there is a product in the lineup for people that want a
01:19:17 ◼ ► bigger screen if you've used the M2 MacBook Air like you say you've used it but it's just a bit
01:19:23 ◼ ► bigger now a chip is a chip is a chip and in the Apple silicon era and a computer is a computer
01:19:28 ◼ ► like this is a MacBook Air it is I mean Mark Gurman said this weekend that they actually
01:19:33 ◼ ► planned on releasing them both together and they just couldn't do it and so a year later almost we
01:19:37 ◼ ► get we get this other one and then the M3 versions will come in 2024 so right the the 13 inch is going
01:19:43 ◼ ► to be around for longer than it would typically right but it's not but it's going to sounds like
01:19:48 ◼ ► that's just the M3 is sliding until early next year because they've had all this stuff kind of
01:19:52 ◼ ► in the bottleneck right but the the fact is I mean this was the most uh difficult review to write
01:19:58 ◼ ► because there's very little to say about it it is the 13 inch MacBook Air except at 15 inches and
01:20:04 ◼ ► most of what I have to say is Apple clearly thinks that there's a switcher opportunity here because
01:20:09 ◼ ► 15 inch laptops are very popular on the PC side I think Apple finally realized that while there
01:20:15 ◼ ► are some people who will pay $2,500 in order to get a 16 inch Mac laptop there are a lot of people
01:20:22 ◼ ► who will either just begrudgingly get the 13 inch or will say we'll just forget it I won't get one
01:20:28 ◼ ► or we'll buy a 15 inch Windows laptop because they just don't care they in that keynote really
01:20:35 ◼ ► hammered on the idea of switchers that there's a market there for them there are people who've
01:20:39 ◼ ► bought the 13 who are going to be like oh yeah I would much rather go up to the 15 on the Air
01:20:44 ◼ ► and yet it keeps everything else about the Air it is just that M2 MacBook Air it's just a little
01:20:48 ◼ ► wider and has a bigger screen and it's got a and it's a little heavier because it's it's bigger and
01:20:54 ◼ ► it has a little more battery but it it's just a counteract powering the screen it's the same
01:20:58 ◼ ► battery life it's the same computer just you can get it in 13 or 15 it's an incredible computer for
01:21:03 ◼ ► fifteen hundred dollars yeah it just is and it's a hundred dollar difference if you spec them
01:21:08 ◼ ► another thing that I noticed is that that 1199 formerly 1299 model that's the one that has the
01:21:14 ◼ ► two GPU cores shut off and that's the one that has the cheaper power adapter when you go up when you
01:21:20 ◼ ► start to build to order and you get them to match the difference between the 13 and the 15 is a
01:21:26 ◼ ► hundred dollars yeah I said it starts at 1300 yeah yeah so 1199 or 1399 uh it is so what is it yeah
01:21:37 ◼ ► it's the same specs at the hundred oh so for if you want the same specs as the 1399 15 you get the
01:21:44 ◼ ► 1299 13 inch model so basically you want a bigger screen it's a hundred dollars more that's
01:21:51 ◼ ► essentially what it is unless you get they've got the cut rate version that they're that they got
01:21:56 ◼ ► down to 1199 that used to be 1299 of the 13 inch model that's typical apple right they've got the
01:22:01 ◼ ► sort of like super lightweight version 15 inch they're not they're not selling it that way there's
01:22:06 ◼ ► no reduced core 8 GPU smaller power adapter in the box for the 15 inch you just get the good one
01:22:14 ◼ ► it's just storage is the difference between the two and you can and you can um also power adapter
01:22:21 ◼ ► thing it's just like it was on the built order higher end models of the 13 inch you can you can
01:22:25 ◼ ► choose you either get that um two USB-C adapter or you can get the one that's got more power with one
01:22:31 ◼ ► plug and it does fast charge and you can choose but that's not new that's actually was there last
01:22:37 ◼ ► july too it was just the the big difference is just that they don't have the reduced cost version
01:22:42 ◼ ► as the base model that's it i mean it's a cool computer man i mean that yeah that's it it's like
01:22:47 ◼ ► everything i think my summation of my review was like look just go read my review of the m2 air
01:22:52 ◼ ► from last summer because it's the same computer and it's great and i bought one and i love it and
01:22:56 ◼ ► i spent you know a year with it and i love it and this is that but bigger yeah these laptops are so
01:23:00 ◼ ► popular um it only makes sense really to have another version of it it makes sense why not make
01:23:06 ◼ ► an even smaller one just go wild like the magbook air is a product line all on its own uh it's
01:23:17 ◼ ► 1199 now is 1099 that's the one that's that's got the two fewer gpu cores and the worst charger
01:23:22 ◼ ► for that will be a couple of years away now and then that 999 and that'll be go away and this will
01:23:28 ◼ ► be 999 yeah no it's it's uh they're they're headed in that direction but yeah i just bottom line is
01:23:33 ◼ ► that it was this was my mac world column last week i was basically like hey the mac announcements
01:23:37 ◼ ► were all really boring and i think they were i think they were huge i actually think bringing
01:23:41 ◼ ► the 13 inch down a hundred dollars their most popular laptop being a hundred dollars cheaper
01:23:46 ◼ ► is huge news putting the 15 inch model on top of it like i just anybody who's been in that position
01:23:52 ◼ ► where they're shopping for a mac laptop and they look at like well it would be nice to have a bigger
01:23:55 ◼ ► screen it costs what uh and yeah some people buy the macbook pro but like you don't need the macbook
01:24:00 ◼ ► pro stuff if you just want a bigger screen it just used to be that was all you could do and now
01:24:06 ◼ ► now you don't so yeah if you want the the bigger screen that's brighter and has the the pro motion
01:24:11 ◼ ► display and has more io and it has more powerful processors like there's a whole list of things
01:24:15 ◼ ► that that macbook pro gets you but all you really care about is you want something bigger than a 13
01:24:19 ◼ ► inch screen now this is here i think it's i think it's going to be big is the 13 inch 999 on
01:24:25 ◼ ► education yes i see that's amazing yep that's a just a yeah i will say it again i hit that on
01:24:31 ◼ ► me now 13 inch macbook care is the best mac i think ever it's pretty great like it is the most
01:24:38 ◼ ► perfect balance of portability and power that i've ever experienced and like what they have been able
01:24:46 ◼ ► to pull off with apple silicon to enable this is unbelievable and now that they've done a similar
01:24:50 ◼ ► thing in in the macbook the only thing i don't like about the 15 inch macbook air the keyboard
01:24:55 ◼ ► deck looks weird with no speakers it looks like just an expanse so i'll tell you as somebody who
01:25:03 ◼ ► doesn't use a macbook pro but has always used a macbook air it doesn't bother me at all but all
01:25:08 ◼ ► the macbook pro people are like oh that's basically the speakers because it's still firing them out
01:25:12 ◼ ► the back and against the screen because that's the macbook air design but that in all the macbook
01:25:17 ◼ ► pros they have grills to just it's like a visual thing i think as well as a helpful thing but yeah
01:25:22 ◼ ► it just looks like the keyboard just looks so tiny i know in the space yeah that is that is because
01:25:27 ◼ ► they've stretched out the they didn't stretch the keyboard they just stretched out the laptop to be
01:25:32 ◼ ► wider and so it's just metal there don't perforate your own macbook air try not to this episode is
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01:27:20 ◼ ► all of relay fm we now move into some ask upgrade questions if you would like to send in questions
01:27:29 ◼ ► of your own go to upgrade feedback.com and you can do that mike asks mike how bad did your cheeks
01:27:35 ◼ ► hurt by the end of monday just caught up on instagram and you were beaming ear to ear in every
01:27:40 ◼ ► picture i had just the best day yeah best couple of days it got only better with the vision pro thing
01:27:46 ◼ ► my wwc experience was basically perfect couldn't have been happier i think i saw somebody asked me
01:27:53 ◼ ► i had people ask me like you know i obviously such a terrible time last year did this make up for it
01:27:57 ◼ ► yes it made up for it i am i have gotten to the point where i'm pleased i missed wwc last year
01:28:03 ◼ ► because my first wwc was the introduction of a brand new platform yeah and i got to use that
01:28:09 ◼ ► platform not many people in history get that opportunity and i got that so yeah i feel very
01:28:14 ◼ ► grateful yeah is that asks is the virtual theater in the vision pro better than the real thing or
01:28:20 ◼ ► just something different better than the real thing because the way projection systems work
01:28:25 ◼ ► at theaters that show 3d it what they're doing is they've got two images so they make you put
01:28:31 ◼ ► on glasses who knows where those glasses have been so you're already wearing something on your face
01:28:37 ◼ ► right and then the glasses are polarized so what they're doing is they're projecting two images
01:28:42 ◼ ► left and right eye but they use the brightness of the projector so it's half the brightness so
01:28:47 ◼ ► three in most cases 3d projection will be dim and unpleasant uh and this is not that this is full
01:28:54 ◼ ► brightness and it makes a difference it really does and you are sat in the prime position which
01:29:00 ◼ ► is not a thing you get right we're going to see spider verse tomorrow which i'm very excited about
01:29:05 ◼ ► i haven't seen it that's great and we're going uh in the cinema that we're going to we're like on
01:29:10 ◼ ► the end of a row because all the middle seats are taken right but if i was watching at home with my
01:29:15 ◼ ► vision pro i'd be right perfectly in the middle absolutely brian asks the vision pro strap looks
01:29:21 ◼ ► like it get in the way of using airpods max apple didn't design a headset that can't work with their
01:29:26 ◼ ► best headphones right well i mean brian gotta tell you the best headphones are the airpods pro and
01:29:31 ◼ ► it won't get in the way of those yeah i i use the airpods max and love the airpods max uh but the
01:29:36 ◼ ► airpods pro is clearly what this thing's designed for and it will give you a better experience yep
01:29:41 ◼ ► no it probably wouldn't work the strap probably wouldn't work but as i was told and i think you
01:29:46 ◼ ► were told too apple's fully expecting many people to make many different kinds of straps this it's
01:29:51 ◼ ► going to be a connector that people will be able to use oh interesting i didn't hear that that's
01:29:54 ◼ ► they said to me like we expect third parties to make straps for this headset because i asked them
01:29:59 ◼ ► specifically about the fact that i had the overhead strap and i didn't recall that in the keynote
01:30:03 ◼ ► right they said to me it wasn't the keynote but really it was in like one tiny shot um but all of
01:30:08 ◼ ► the imagery just show the back strap which you can use it that way but you get they said you get
01:30:13 ◼ ► additional comfort over longer periods they believe by using the top strap but the straps
01:30:17 ◼ ► aren't final but they expect many companies to make many different types of straps for many
01:30:22 ◼ ► different types of comfort levels because it's just to connect to like the apple watch effectively
01:30:27 ◼ ► they think it'll be like that one okay jerry asks noting that the new headset is the vision pro
01:30:34 ◼ ► what do you imagine a vision non-pro to be do you have any thoughts on what apple could compromise
01:30:39 ◼ ► on it's the quest big question gonna be a question of the next year yeah two years i mean mark
01:30:45 ◼ ► german's newsletter this weekend did have some discussion of this i was surprised by some of the
01:30:50 ◼ ► the choices that he said but like he said the the the eyesight thing is is going to be on all of
01:30:56 ◼ ► them at least they think that right now i mean they may they may change as this goes um but i
01:31:01 ◼ ► think um they could compromise on they could have fewer sensors they could compromise made of
01:31:08 ◼ ► aluminium it could be it could be you know cheaper it could be bring your own uh speakers it could be
01:31:16 ◼ ► um lower resolution could be yeah that would suck though i know i know this is going to be the
01:31:26 ◼ ► really hard part it is like what do what do they pull out of it it's going to be very difficult it
01:31:31 ◼ ► may be that it's a lot like this one but cheaper because it's two years later and that there's a
01:31:35 ◼ ► new thing at the high end that could also be it right that like the cheaper version is just
01:31:39 ◼ ► it's just this but they might use pro too they might use cheaper materials that's that's a
01:31:44 ◼ ► possibility i i think what's going to happen too is they wanted to get their best foot forward here
01:31:49 ◼ ► and so um imagine coming out with the the cheaper one they've made it a problem for future apple
01:31:55 ◼ ► yeah to deal with that's right future apple will have to we'll have to work this out decontend that
01:31:59 ◼ ► thing well but by all accounts they're working on that product um and so they have to figure that
01:32:04 ◼ ► out of like how do you make uh a cheaper one and and then also the next generation one of this
01:32:11 ◼ ► uh yeah it's a good it's a good question we're going to be playing that game for a while now
01:32:16 ◼ ► and i think once it ships they're going to get a better sense and we're going to get a better sense
01:32:20 ◼ ► of what are the core parts of this experience that really can't be downgraded and what are the things
01:32:25 ◼ ► that you could get away with parker asks will the glasses like the prescription adapters be required
01:32:31 ◼ ► for people who are near-sighted it makes sense if you're farsighted you would need something but
01:32:36 ◼ ► since the screens are basically on your eye i don't see why someone who is near-sighted would
01:32:40 ◼ ► need additional lenses i don't know i don't know i'm not i'm not right and so that's why i needed
01:32:46 ◼ ► them they did the scanning my expectation is if you have no if you are near-sighted i don't think
01:32:56 ◼ ► near-sighted means you can see near but you can't see far wait let me rephrase it because i get yeah
01:33:02 ◼ ► i need glasses for things far away yes me too i think if you need glasses for things far away
01:33:08 ◼ ► you're going to need the prescription correction yes i think if you just need glasses for reading
01:33:12 ◼ ► i think you'll be okay i think you'll probably be okay i had somebody ask me um the other day at a
01:33:17 ◼ ► user group thing that i did um how do they make it so that you can you know basically it's like
01:33:25 ◼ ► these things are right in front of your eyes how do they make it that way and and why do you need
01:33:29 ◼ ► vision correction for that and all that and my answer was that think about um surround sound
01:33:35 ◼ ► speakers and you've got seven speakers everywhere around you and then and then apple says oh you
01:33:40 ◼ ► can just put these air pods in and it'll do surround too and there are a lot of people are like oh but
01:33:43 ◼ ► it can't it can't because of the seven but you think about it you only have two ear holes right
01:33:49 ◼ ► so your brain is doing the processing you could if you i'm not saying that apple does this they
01:33:54 ◼ ► do sort of but like if you can have a sophisticated enough system in your ear holes that can make it
01:34:02 ◼ ► sound like there are a bunch of different speakers or things in a bunch of different places
01:34:07 ◼ ► so that your brain reacts the same way you know the the seven speakers positioned around your room
01:34:12 ◼ ► is cheating it's still cheating it's it's not putting sound everywhere it's putting sound in
01:34:17 ◼ ► seven places and then they come through the room into your ears and your brain processes them
01:34:22 ◼ ► it's like that this thing's right in front of your eyes but what it's doing is they've got that
01:34:28 ◼ ► whole lens system that's in between there exactly and what they're doing is they want the light when
01:34:33 ◼ ► it passes into your eye and hits the back to be as if it was light from the world even though it's
01:34:41 ◼ ► not that's the trick and the the better the lenses are and the higher quality the images and
01:34:46 ◼ ► everything that goes into that they are making your eyes see light from uh as if it was coming
01:34:55 ◼ ► from distance and as a result you gotta focus like it's coming from distance and i know that's a
01:35:02 ◼ ► it really is a thing that is a head scratcher but like that's the idea here is that your eyes don't
01:35:08 ◼ ► know where that light is coming from all they know is that the light hit the back of your eye and if
01:35:12 ◼ ► apple can emulate light from the real world hitting your eye but it's light from their screens hitting
01:35:17 ◼ ► your eye then your brain can't tell the difference and your eyes can't tell the difference because
01:35:23 ◼ ► there's no like we don't have lidar scanners in our bodies that give us a distance back right we
01:35:30 ◼ ► just interpret distance based on the light that passes into our eyes and hits our retinas so
01:35:35 ◼ ► if you can fake it then it's like it's real and rich asks do we know what the accessibility story
01:35:43 ◼ ► is with the vision pro so i looked into this there was a session about accessibility for how that
01:35:50 ◼ ► could work and there's a few things that they're doing one is called pointer control so instead of
01:35:56 ◼ ► using eye tracking you use your head wrist and index finger to do the tracking on the headset
01:36:04 ◼ ► so like rather than your eyes do looking around and choosing the interface you can kind of put
01:36:08 ◼ ► your hand up it looks like kind of like i don't like a magic wand that you're aiming towards the
01:36:12 ◼ ► interface and you can select it that way they have something called dwell control which is
01:36:18 ◼ ► on-screen options for the interactions rather than using your hands so you would use eye tracking to
01:36:24 ◼ ► look at a thing and then look at a place which allows you to select so you'd like select and
01:36:28 ◼ ► then look here and if you just hold for long enough in a certain place it will activate it
01:36:34 ◼ ► so then you're driving just by vision yes they also have support for guided access so this is
01:36:38 ◼ ► their new one app at a time simplified ui thing and voiceover support right that's the thing that
01:36:43 ◼ ► they didn't show that i think is one of the missing pieces here is somebody was asking me
01:36:47 ◼ ► about like how and they didn't they didn't want us to do this like how do you go to a specific
01:36:51 ◼ ► website in safari and there's that keyboard and you can type on the keyboard theoretically either
01:36:56 ◼ ► with your hands or actually by looking at the letters and just tapping but i had that thought
01:37:00 ◼ ► which is like or you use your voice right like or you just use your voice and we had no examples of
01:37:05 ◼ ► that because again they don't want to show that right now it may not be ready but also that's not
01:37:09 ◼ ► the interaction that's not the image that they want to put out there is that they've got uh you
01:37:13 ◼ ► know full voice assistant support that will let you do stuff like that but i'm sure they will yeah
01:37:20 ◼ ► thank you to everybody who sent in a question if you'd like to send in one of your own just go to
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01:38:13 ◼ ► on both there will be some fun clips of us in person we mentioned earlier we have chief video
01:38:19 ◼ ► officer jeremy burge i'm just gonna call him jason burge i'm looking at both of you right now and
01:38:25 ◼ ► that's confusing so there's a comma in there yes jason jeremy burge they work on this together uh
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