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464: Godzilla Is Always There

 

00:00:00   [Intro]

00:00:09   From Relay FM, this is Upgrade, episode 464. Today's show is brought to you by Electric, ZocDoc, Factor, and the Human Creator Alliance.

00:00:20   My name is Mike Hurley and I'm joined across the airwaves by Jason Snow. Hi, Jason Snow.

00:00:25   Oh, on the airwaves. That's very exciting. Yes, you flew the airwaves back to your home.

00:00:32   Yep.

00:00:33   And I drove the road waves to Oregon, where I am ensconced in an Airbnb.

00:00:40   So, you know, we were both in my office and now neither of us are in my office, is what I'm saying.

00:00:46   Well, it makes sense because, if you think about it, a few weeks of weirdness because it is, of course,

00:00:52   the Summer of Fun. It's back. We're back. Got a Summer of Fun topic for later on in today's episode.

00:01:02   But right now, I have a Snow Talk question for you. It comes from Brett, who wants to know,

00:01:08   Jason, do you ever watch TV with the subtitles on?

00:01:12   Great question. Great question. I will reveal that my, so my daughter always watches TV with the subtitles on.

00:01:21   And I think this is a generational thing. I think the youth, today's youth, love watching all TV with the subtitles on.

00:01:30   I don't. So I only watch with subtitles on if it's a language I don't understand.

00:01:37   Or a mumbly British actor.

00:01:40   Why is it going to be British?

00:01:42   Well, because usually when somebody's speaking with an accent I can't understand,

00:01:48   it's usually because it's a British TV production and somebody is doing a regional accent or they're very mumbly or both.

00:01:55   It might happen that there's a mumbly American actor and I'm like, what are they saying?

00:01:59   But usually it's a mumbly British actor.

00:02:02   So bloody travesty that.

00:02:04   Yeah. Well, how is...

00:02:05   Call blimey, Governor.

00:02:06   How's bottom on the mum? I'm like, what was that? I don't even...

00:02:09   And then often with the British actors, you have captions on and you still don't understand what they said

00:02:14   because the words still don't make any sense.

00:02:16   That is what he said. I still don't understand it.

00:02:19   No, there was a show, God, what was that show?

00:02:22   Oh, The Peripheral on Amazon and one of the characters in that is an excellent, excellent English actress.

00:02:31   But her choice was to mumble.

00:02:35   I mean, literally her choice was to mumble. And I literally could not understand what she was saying.

00:02:46   So if there's a mumbly actor, they're not always British, but they're frequently British, I will sometimes do it.

00:02:49   But otherwise, no, I only really do it if I don't understand what's going on.

00:02:52   But I have done that.

00:02:55   There's some Letterkenny episodes I've done that for.

00:02:58   Letterkenny, a very funny show on Hulu, Canadian, and sometimes they do bits where they're really talking fast

00:03:06   and they're talking sometimes in colloquialisms or accents.

00:03:10   And I'm like, OK, I need to back that up and see.

00:03:14   I miss some of the words and context there. I'll do that there occasionally.

00:03:19   But like, yeah, so my answer is not unless I have a real motivation to.

00:03:23   Certainly as a matter of course, I don't, even though my daughter does.

00:03:27   Do you? Are you captioners?

00:03:29   For me, it is obviously if they're not speaking English, there's no way around that.

00:03:33   But most shows just show that to you automatically. That's an obvious one.

00:03:36   I do. But it's mostly because of just like audio mixing, I feel like.

00:03:42   We'll put subtitles on for some shows for that.

00:03:46   And especially Adina appreciates it because if it's mumbly and it's English, it's like it's not her first language anyway.

00:03:53   Right. So we're two levels down at that point.

00:03:57   So we'll often put on subtitles in those instances.

00:04:01   But saying about words that you don't understand. So no spoilers.

00:04:06   We just saw the new Spider-Verse while we were away.

00:04:09   And there is a character played by Daniel Kaluuya who is very Cockney.

00:04:15   And there is this one moment where he says a piece of Cockney rhyming slang

00:04:19   and they put up one of those editor notes like in the comics. Have you seen it, by the way?

00:04:24   Yes. Yeah. It's great, right? It's fantastic. It's so good.

00:04:27   Such a great movie. And that Daniel Kaluuya character is especially inspired.

00:04:31   Superb. Yeah. But they do the funny joke where they do the footnote from the editor like they do in the comics

00:04:36   to explain what the heck he just said. Yeah. It's good stuff.

00:04:39   Very good. If you would like to send in a Snell Talk question of your own to help us open the show,

00:04:43   just go to upgradefeedback.com and send it in.

00:04:47   Got some follow-up, Jason Snell. Okay, good.

00:04:50   So we were talking about AI model training on the Mac Pro and wondering if it's actually something that's necessary.

00:04:57   After there was conversation about this, especially during the talk show.

00:05:01   We heard from both Magnus and Marcelo who are both data scientists.

00:05:06   I don't know if to be a data scientist if your name has to begin with an M and an A, but that's just what happened.

00:05:11   It does. So far, it is a 100% correlation between those two things.

00:05:16   As my friends Mark and Mary say, they're both data scientists.

00:05:19   They both said that they wouldn't want to use a local machine for model training even if it was possible

00:05:25   because these days training in the cloud scales way better because you have functionally infinite GPUs at your disposal.

00:05:31   Right. That makes sense.

00:05:34   I just thought that you kind of follow what we were saying, right?

00:05:37   You just like if you use something like Azure or whatever, you could just go on forever and ever.

00:05:43   And these things are being permanently, no not permanently, consistently tweaked to be more effective for AI model training anyway.

00:05:50   So many upgradians got in touch to tell me that it would be very simple for me to get a prescription for vision in the US

00:05:59   if I needed to order lenses for the Vision Pro.

00:06:02   But most likely, Zeiss will just accept whatever I tell them my prescription is.

00:06:06   So when the time comes, it should be for me to get my prescription lenses for my Vision Pro.

00:06:11   Yeah, you can actually, there are walk-in places here where you can walk in and it's an eyeglasses plus optician

00:06:17   and you can just walk in and pay them and get your prescription.

00:06:20   A few people sent me a thing that Zeiss have like an app for prescriptions.

00:06:25   Like you just do it on the iPhone? It just seems like this vision test to confirm that the prescription you're saying is correct?

00:06:31   Oh yeah. We had a podcast sponsor who did something similar to that.

00:06:34   Simple contacts I think?

00:06:36   Yeah, and the idea is you put your phone a little further away and you step away and then you kind of call it out and they do a whole thing.

00:06:43   So yeah, it's like that. There's ways.

00:06:46   You could do a quick swing to the East Coast to get a Vision Pro and probably get it to work even though you might have to have some of it that you waited for or had passed back to you.

00:06:58   But I bet you could do it.

00:07:00   Yeah, I'm often surprised by the American healthcare system in interesting ways.

00:07:06   Yes, it's constantly surprising. I wish I could say delightful but just constantly surprising.

00:07:14   Just surprising. I wanted to ask you, Jason, if you have thoughts on the situation at Reddit?

00:07:19   Because we had a few upgrade names right in to ask what our thoughts were.

00:07:23   We spoke about it on Connected last week and I'll put a link in the show notes to that if people want to hear it.

00:07:27   The situation has continued to unfold. It's kind of like they're cutting off third party apps.

00:07:32   Redditors went on protest and shut down Reddit so basically turned them private.

00:07:38   And you wrote a little bit about it on Six Colors especially in regards to Apollo, the app which kind of instigated a lot of this.

00:07:46   Well, it's actually a very similar story to Twitter. I understand the business model of saying we want to get rid of all the third party clients so that we can completely monetize our site ourselves.

00:08:06   I understand that and it's their right to do that although I would say that in… Like Twitter, Reddit seems to have solved it by overpricing their API and pricing clients out.

00:08:18   Which I think is unfortunate because there's probably an argument to be made that the right way to handle this is to either set the price at somewhere where the Apollo's of the world can't do a free tier, need to charge, but can charge something where they make money and Reddit makes money.

00:08:35   Or Reddit could set up a system where there's a premium Reddit account that gives you API access and so you pay Reddit directly and then you can use a third party client if you want to.

00:08:45   My biggest complaints about Reddit are about the CEO and the people working with him and Kristian Seelig, the developer of Apollo has the receipts on this.

00:08:56   Like they kept saying, "No, no, no, we're not going to price it like Twitter. It'll be reasonably priced."

00:09:00   And in the end, not only was it going to be catastrophic for him to implement it, although I think it's arguable that in the long run the pricing might have been okay, but also they gave him no time to do it and he's got existing subscribers and it would have been a very, very costly thing to try and turn the ship.

00:09:16   So instead he's just going to shut the app off.

00:09:18   So I wish there was some more coherence and honesty with what Reddit did, which sounds very similar to Twitter.

00:09:25   The CEO of Reddit has continued to shoot himself in the foot. He finally basically said, "After saying before, 'Well, we're not going to be like Twitter,' he basically said, 'I've talked to Elon Musk and I think that's a good model and that's what we're doing.'"

00:09:35   So it's like, "Okay, I guess he's just decided that they're going to do exactly what Twitter did."

00:09:40   Twitter is really falling apart, so good luck to him on that front.

00:09:44   Yeah, I've got to say, I'm not sure. I read that quote and I don't understand what business he is seeing.

00:09:53   Look, he is, I think, flailing desperately to get to an IPO to rescue the company.

00:10:02   Which I understand that. That makes sense, really, because there's no money.

00:10:07   I think we've heard from people that Reddit tools are terrible for moderators, that third-party apps really add a lot of value, which is what the argument always was with Twitter.

00:10:19   I always felt like Twitter third-party apps, I understand them shutting them down, but the right thing to do...

00:10:24   Look, by the time Twitter got to where it was, I think shutting down third-party apps was probably the only call.

00:10:29   Although, again, they didn't just have the guts to shut them down.

00:10:32   Instead, they had this kind of obfuscation where they said, "Oh, they're violating the API, so we've turned them off."

00:10:38   And then several days later, they changed the API rules to retroactively validate them, which is just BS.

00:10:45   They're trying to hide themselves. And Reddit seems to be going down the same pathway.

00:10:48   They're trying to be honest and just say, "Look, we need to make money. We aren't making money from the third-party apps, so we're going to shut them down."

00:10:54   But instead, they're like, "No, he threatened us. He tried to blackmail us. We're the victims here."

00:11:01   That's when I think that this Steve guy, who's the CEO at Reddit, is just...

00:11:09   I almost called him an insulting word. I'll just say he seems kind of like he's a...

00:11:15   I get the impression he's a lying jerk. That's how I'll put it.

00:11:18   He is afraid of just taking the punches and saying, "You know what? We have to do this."

00:11:23   And instead, even as this whole thing has gone on, he's just sort of like smartly laid back and said, "Look, it's not us. It's them.

00:11:30   Everything we do is right." It's a very PR, kind of calculated way, but it's also very clear to everybody on the outside that he's just lying about this stuff.

00:11:38   And then with Reddit, I would pile on top of that even more than Twitter.

00:11:43   Like Twitter, the content is entirely free. Twitter, every user makes the content.

00:11:50   And the value of Twitter is a combination of the user making the content and then Twitter building the technology,

00:11:56   and also having all of the moderation practices that are necessary to have a social media network.

00:12:00   Reddit does Twitter One better by having not only all of its content, but also all of its moderation done by essentially volunteers.

00:12:09   Pretty nice gig, right? Where you've set up this whole company and you want to make money and you want to have an IPO,

00:12:17   and your content and moderation is just done by people who are random because they care about the content.

00:12:24   And while this is another reminder, as we've talked about here, that, wow, relying on big companies as a primary path for you to do anything

00:12:36   is not something you should ever do because you can't trust them.

00:12:39   I look at this and I also think, I question the entire business model of Reddit because if he's going to, this is the thing,

00:12:46   Steve is going to play this game now where he's like, look, we've got to make money. This is a business.

00:12:51   I get it. On the other hand, if you're going to play that game, I think you've got to play the other part of the game,

00:12:59   which is your volunteer moderators are going to exert power and here's the problem. They don't work for you.

00:13:07   They actually don't work for you. They are volunteers. They are doing it for thrills and for power and for the love of the content,

00:13:17   but they're not doing it for money. You don't own them. You don't feed their families. You don't pay their mortgages.

00:13:26   You don't do any of that stuff for these people and that's the problem. That's the danger that Reddit faces, I think,

00:13:31   is that if you want to play the game that this guy seems to be playing, you may end up in a situation where you've kind of broken your business model

00:13:39   and you can kick out those moderators and that's fine, but you're going to start to have severe content problems too.

00:13:46   I saw somebody and I don't know whether it was Ben Thompson or somebody quoted by Ben Thompson in Stratechery who said,

00:13:52   "Reddit is so valuable as a search result in Google that Google should just buy them," and I thought it was the most brilliant thing I read all week

00:13:59   because I feel like just as with Twitter, I feel like maybe these things actually have more value as a resource for another business

00:14:06   than they do as a business, if that makes any sense, that it's almost like they're more worth it as a content farm for Google

00:14:17   than they are as an actual thriving business and so Google would be like, "We'll lose money on Reddit. It's fine. We make it all up in search."

00:14:25   I'm like, "Okay, that actually makes more sense to me than Reddit as a business." So, I don't know. Those are my thoughts.

00:14:31   I think the CEO is a jerk. I think this is all, I think this is self-inflicted wounds. I think they got in a difficult spot

00:14:36   and I understand it and I realized that to navigate out of that, you might actually have to do some things that are unpopular,

00:14:42   but the way you do them is by being upfront about them, not hiding, claiming that you're not, then doing them anyway,

00:14:49   then lying in order to throw some developers under the bus to make you look better.

00:14:54   Like, these are all, like, none, all of this could have been avoided, Steve. That's what I'm saying.

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00:16:44   I have the return of room around up for you, Jesse.

00:16:50   Finally, we're done with the facts. It's back to the rumors.

00:16:54   Well, there wasn't a lot of them.

00:16:56   We're starting from a low baseline. It's starting from scratch.

00:17:01   Yeah, you got to get back on the horse.

00:17:04   Indeed. Saddle up.

00:17:06   Sigmund Judge, who's somebody that I spent a bit of time with over in California for WBC, very nice guy. Great accent.

00:17:16   He's reporting. He's at Screen Times. It's a publication that he runs. Focuses a lot on Apple TV stuff.

00:17:24   So Sigmund said that an upcoming TV+ show, Monarch Legacy of Monsters, which I think is like a Kaiju Godzilla type thing.

00:17:33   It's a Godzilla show, yeah.

00:17:35   It's being created in Apple's immersive video format for Vision Pro.

00:17:40   And this will be in addition to the standard show content.

00:17:43   This is something I guess we'd assumed, but I think it's the first report that I've seen of any of Apple's TV+ shows being thought of having a Vision Pro component to them.

00:17:54   Yeah, so 3D content in general. There's a complexity here that I think a lot of people don't understand.

00:18:00   I've talked to some people about it recently, people we know in the film industry who are talking about it.

00:18:05   Shooting movies with 3D cameras is incredibly hard because you have to have two lenses in order to get them to the right eye distance to be properly 3D.

00:18:17   A lot of times you end up with a beam splitter, so it's sort of like the second camera is actually somewhere else a little further away.

00:18:24   But then the lens is right to the left of the other lens. It's very complex.

00:18:31   And if I say this, then you're thinking to yourself, "Well, wait, every movie is released in 3D."

00:18:36   Almost every movie released in 3D is shot in 2D, and then a company that does 3D conversion comes in and they lay down for every shot.

00:18:47   Maybe the VFX are rendered in 3D? I actually don't know that. They could be potentially rendered in 3D because it's actual VFX.

00:18:55   But whatever isn't in 3D, they'll lay down like a mesh where they're like, "Here's the depth map that they're creating."

00:19:03   But it's all artificial, and they generate a stereo pair out of a single flat image.

00:19:09   So most things do not shoot. This report suggests that the Monarch Legacy of Monsters show is actually shooting in 3D,

00:19:17   which is interesting because that's a lot of extra work and a lot of extra cost.

00:19:21   And I think maybe this is a test for Apple. I wouldn't be surprised. I'm just throwing things out there.

00:19:28   I wouldn't be surprised if we hear over the next little while that a bunch of Apple shows are being done as a 3D conversion,

00:19:36   just like movies are, so that that content on Apple TV is available on Vision Pro when it launches in 3D, so they've got more showcase content.

00:19:43   Apple will also undoubtedly have everything that every movie that's been shot in 3D will be in 3D.

00:19:51   Someone can finally sell them. They can finally be sold. There's something to actually watch them on.

00:19:56   Right. Or like Disney Plus, for example, when Bob Iger says day and date, like all of their Marvel movies and all that stuff,

00:20:02   all that content will be in 3D. They'll be a 3D version of it because they have a 3D version of it that they put in theaters.

00:20:08   They'll put that out there. And everybody who had a 3D DVD or whatever, I mean, 3D TV failed, but 3D movies still happen,

00:20:16   so all of that stuff will be available. But this is interesting to me because it's not just a conversion.

00:20:22   And it's at least an experiment where Apple is spending the money to see.

00:20:26   My guess is that they're spending this money because, one, they want it to be very impressive and use it as a sample

00:20:31   when they're talking about this as the Vision Pro launches, as a media sample.

00:20:36   But, two, it makes me wonder if they're also just sort of seeing what would it be like if we shot more of our stuff as 3D.

00:20:44   And they may learn like, whoa, everybody already learned the lesson that you just convert it later.

00:20:49   You don't actually shoot it this way. But we'll see about that.

00:20:53   I love that they're trying it. I'm not surprised that they're trying it, but I love that they're trying this.

00:20:57   And this is an interesting show for that, a Godzilla show to just, I mean, Godzilla as a property, I think.

00:21:04   Isn't Godzilla had a legacy of 3D movies in various 3D formats over the last 70 years?

00:21:10   So I think that's fun, too.

00:21:12   Godzilla's always there. Chance Miller, who's the editor-in-chief of 9to5Mac, who also got to spend time with the WWDC,

00:21:19   very happy to meet Chance.

00:21:20   Friend of the show in the chat room right now.

00:21:23   In our live Discord says, "I haven't reported this yet, but they are also filming something in immersive video with YouTube."

00:21:30   Oh, sure.

00:21:31   Of course they are.

00:21:32   Of course they are.

00:21:33   Of course they are.

00:21:34   That's right. Well, you know, you're going to get that 3D of Tim Cook touching Bono's finger.

00:21:39   3D is fun.

00:21:41   No, that's great.

00:21:42   You find a new band, you know what I mean?

00:21:43   Yeah, I know. I know. I know.

00:21:45   Well, you two just did the thing with David Letterman that I thought was really great.

00:21:48   They did a special with David Letterman that I thought was really fun.

00:21:51   But yes, indeed, it would be.

00:21:53   So, okay. Again, experimenting with music content, right?

00:21:57   One of the things that struck us, I think, when we were watching this and then we talked about it since is,

00:22:01   this isn't just a thing for movies and for sports, but like concerts and things are definitely.

00:22:06   And they had the one concert kind of like you're in the studio clip as part of their montage.

00:22:11   So like more immersive video content with music as a focus is something that they should totally do too.

00:22:19   So I'm looking forward to now that this is out there, all of the, it's not like Apple's not going to still keep secrets about this stuff,

00:22:26   but like the key secret, which is never admit that we're doing anything involving 3D is out the window.

00:22:33   So there will be more reports like this where we'll be starting to figure out what their Vision Pro content plan is.

00:22:40   Ming-Chi Kuo is reporting that the iPhone 15 line will include a new ultra wideband chip to be able to communicate more reliably with the Vision Pro.

00:22:51   This is a quote, "Kuo believes that an upgraded version of the U1 chip will improve the performance of Find My, Handoff, AirDrop and more.

00:22:59   It will also play a key role in the integration between Vision Pro and Apple's other products."

00:23:05   I don't really know what this means.

00:23:07   All right. I have a theory. I have a theory. I want to know.

00:23:10   I was also baffled by this report. I was baffled by this. I was like, "Now Ming-Chi Kuo, what are you doing?

00:23:16   You got a new chip. You're like, "Oh, it'll integrate. Goodbye."

00:23:20   It's like, "How can I put Vision Pro into this story?"

00:23:23   Where'd it go? How did you drop that on us and then just run away before telling us more?

00:23:28   Here's my theory. So ultra wideband, the whole idea behind ultra wideband is that it gives incredibly precise measurement of location in space.

00:23:39   So the example I always give is like a Bluetooth-based smart lock or car key unlocks when your phone is kind of close to the car.

00:23:57   Because like Bluetooth LE, they're like, "Oh, this signal is strong enough that they're probably close to the car."

00:24:02   So that's like how most current car pairings, like a Tesla key unlocks is its Bluetooth.

00:24:11   Which means that you can hijack it and you can steal the signal from one and boost it and it makes it seem like it's stronger than it is and then it unlocks the car.

00:24:20   Okay, there's things you can do there. But it's also imprecise.

00:24:22   Bluetooth for a smart lock is similar. It's like it's sort of got to wait for you to leave and then senses when you come back and then it unlocks.

00:24:30   My old lock was like that. And then there's NFC. NFC is very close. You have to be able to tap against something because it's like Apple Pay.

00:24:39   So you would have to tap your phone or whatever against the car's spot and then it would be like, "Oh, there it is."

00:24:45   And it would open. And that's what my current lock on my door does. I have to put my Apple Watch right up against the lock.

00:24:52   And then the NFC fires off and it goes, "Yay, you're home." It doesn't say that, but it's thinking it. And then it opens the door.

00:24:59   Ultra wideband is precision location in space. So with ultra wideband, if you've got a phone with ultra wideband or a watch or whatever and you come up to the car door,

00:25:09   it can know that it's you at that car door and unlock the car door. You don't have to be up against it, but it's also not kind of this hazy like, "I think you're close."

00:25:17   Similar with a lock. As you're walking up to the door, it can be like, "Hey, you're walking up to the door. I'm going to unlock now."

00:25:23   Because it knows exactly where you are in space. So let's talk about Vision Pro.

00:25:28   The more precise locations you've got for those items, the more Vision Pro can overlay things based on those items' location, if that makes sense.

00:25:36   So that's my theory here is the idea is it knows exactly where your iPhone is, exactly where any of your ultra wideband devices are.

00:25:44   And because you're seeing the room, it can actually show them where they are. And my guess is that the idea there is not only do you have that precision,

00:25:52   but then they build an interface on top of it for you to bring up that iPhone interface or pull something off that iPhone or do an airdrop or something.

00:26:01   And it increases the quality of the illusion of those products being in the AR experience because with ultra wideband, it should know their precise location.

00:26:17   So if it's on the table, it knows it's on the table. If it's on the couch, if it's behind you and then you turn around, it will already have known exactly where it was and will be able to, I don't know what, put an overlay above it, put a little screen above it, whatever it needs to do.

00:26:31   So that's my guess is that this is all about Apple creating this kind of like constellation of devices, all of which know where every other device is and the Vision Pro can see them all and overlay them. That's my best guess.

00:26:43   That's as good as any guess that I can imagine. I don't have one.

00:26:49   This is a very interesting story that me and you were talking about when we were at the baseball park a couple of weeks ago.

00:26:56   Oh yes, indeed.

00:26:57   It has been reported that Apple is a key player in Lionel Messi's decision to move to Major League Soccer joining into Miami.

00:27:06   So Messi is leaving European football and going to Major League Soccer, has chosen into Miami as the team that he's going to go play for is the reporting.

00:27:18   But it's being further reported that Messi will get a cut of revenue from new subscribers, I think international new subscribers, to the MLS season pass as part of this deal.

00:27:30   Apple is also going to make a documentary on his career. The deal is apparently not yet finalized, but honestly just seems like it's the paperwork that needs to come together.

00:27:40   How wild is this?

00:27:42   The idea here is that MLS, it's not just the team Inter Miami, it's the league and it's the league's media partner.

00:27:50   They did a similar kind of wild deal for Beckham back in the day. In fact, Inter Miami, Beckham owns 20% or something and it's from that deal.

00:28:01   As part of his deal, he got to buy into an expansion team, which is Inter Miami.

00:28:07   So I think the idea here is Messi's profile internationally. Keep in mind, MLS rights, Apple has, they're worldwide.

00:28:17   And you're saying to yourself, yes, but the world doesn't care about MLS.

00:28:23   It's like, well, does the world care about Messi? The places where the world cares about Messi, people are going to be able to instantly be able to see him.

00:28:31   Because it's going to be on Apple TV Plus or it's going to be on Apple TV with the buy-in to the MLS package.

00:28:38   So Apple is going to make this available. It therefore makes sense that you might want to sweeten the deal a little bit.

00:28:44   It is probably not huge money in terms of the overall deal, but the idea of sweetening the deal and saying, yeah, we know you're going to drive subs of our service everywhere because people are going to want to see you play.

00:28:56   And so we'll make you a partner and we'll kick you in for some of that.

00:29:01   It seems wild on one level, but when you think about the business side of it, it's not too bad.

00:29:07   And it shows the advantage of Apple's approach because instead of MLS being like, I guess we need to find partners who are vaguely interested us in Argentina.

00:29:15   And it's like, no, Apple's got it everywhere. Everybody can already get it. All they have to do is pay for it and they get the package.

00:29:22   And it's like, it's done because Apple is everywhere. That's a big advantage.

00:29:26   It's not a scalable thing.

00:29:30   No, they can't say, hey, Kylian Mbappe, how about you play for the NYFC?

00:29:39   And we'll cut you in for a piece too. You can't scale it like that.

00:29:44   But this is just trying to get more eyes on MLS.

00:29:47   Which this will do.

00:29:49   It's fine.

00:29:50   One of the best players of all time, one of the best current players around.

00:29:54   Yeah, and this is the classic move where when you're at the end of your career, I think he already has a house in Miami.

00:30:01   At the end of the career, it's sort of like you come to America, you're going to be a little less famous there, which is probably nice.

00:30:07   You've already got a place there. You play some soccer in your last years of playing soccer. You make a lot of money and you hang it up.

00:30:14   I guess realistically, you're playing at like 75% skill.

00:30:17   Well, it's like Beckham. It's the same thing. MLS wants to be better and they are getting better.

00:30:24   And they're very successful actually as a business. They keep expanding and they're doing pretty well.

00:30:29   But they're not a top tier league, although they're improving.

00:30:34   And so how do you get brand names? And the answer is it's stuff like this.

00:30:39   You pay for a declining player who is still widely loved to take the money because his performance isn't necessarily at the high level.

00:30:50   And he's made a lot of money and he's got some lifestyle decisions to make for his last few years.

00:30:56   And that's exactly what they did with Beckham. And here it is again.

00:31:00   I'm going to attempt to introduce a new segment to the show during this time of the year purely because I thought of a terrible name.

00:31:10   This is the B-Tails where we talk about details from the betas.

00:31:16   The betas. The betas.

00:31:20   We have to say it the English way for it to make sense. I feel like. Written now, it's fine either way.

00:31:26   When I saw this in the document, I corrected it and then I went, "Oh."

00:31:30   You saw what I was doing.

00:31:32   I see what he's doing here.

00:31:34   There's a couple of things that I've seen on the internet and we'll be talking about these more as I'm sure I guess a good way to start.

00:31:42   Are you running any of the betas right now?

00:31:44   Not with me. I put iOS 17 on my iPhone mini that's at home and I put it on an iPad Pro that's at home.

00:31:54   So I tried it out but I'm not traveling because again, I'm not a monster. I'm not traveling with them.

00:32:00   And then I have not prepped either a drive or... The problem is with summer travel, which we'll talk about in the summer fun.

00:32:06   I'm a little bit loath to install a beta on my laptop. So instead I end up having to boot off of an external drive or something.

00:32:15   So I haven't done that yet.

00:32:17   But for Mac OS.

00:32:19   For Mac OS.

00:32:20   I don't have extra devices and I also never would run Mac OS anyway.

00:32:26   That just seems like a horrible risk that I don't want to partake in.

00:32:31   But the iOS stuff, I always will run the iOS beta but I usually give it a couple to go through.

00:32:38   But I haven't started on that yet.

00:32:41   We could call this segment Features in the Betas. Remember that?

00:32:44   That was a whole episode title. Features in the Betas.

00:32:46   I prefer the betas.

00:32:48   The betas. Personally.

00:32:50   Ping My Watch is a great addition to iOS 17.

00:32:56   So it's in the opposite way around.

00:32:59   So you've always been able to from your watch to ping your phone.

00:33:03   But now you can ping your watch from your phone.

00:33:06   So just think is this like a nice little addition to add? Why not?

00:33:10   I very rarely am in a position where I don't know where my watch is.

00:33:13   But I do know where my phone is.

00:33:15   But now in that rare case where you might want to know, you can find out.

00:33:21   Okay.

00:33:23   Cinematic mode in the iPhone camera, which is the thing I'd forgotten about until I actually used it when we were traveling.

00:33:30   We were taking a cable car ride in San Francisco because Adina had never done that.

00:33:36   And she's riding the whole line and she's like take some fun video and I used cinematic mode to take a video.

00:33:42   This is going to be something you'll be able to edit in third party apps.

00:33:47   So quote, this enables your apps to change focus, distance and aperture in movies, create a bokeh effect even after recordings.

00:33:55   This is a thing you can do in the iOS camera app.

00:33:58   But this will now allow for third party apps to be able to have the functionality to be able to edit these videos after the fact.

00:34:06   Right.

00:34:08   And one you wrote about in iOS 17 called Deferred Photo Processing.

00:34:13   I'm always going to think of this as the feature where I walked somewhere else here in Eugene to a brew pub and ordered a beer and then sat down with my laptop and wrote a story.

00:34:24   Because it was so civilized. That was so good.

00:34:27   And about a WWDC session. So yes, tell us what I wrote about, Mike.

00:34:32   So you said that basically what this does is it's processing images in the background in third party apps so that the shutter button is more responsive.

00:34:42   Yeah. I'm not 100%. The reason I phrased this the way I did is that these are new features in iOS 17.

00:34:48   I'm unclear what features of these are new entirely in iOS 17 and which ones are just new to third parties in iOS 17.

00:34:57   I think some of this may be new in the camera app too, but I don't know that for sure. So I left it intentionally vague.

00:35:04   I've seen images change. So I think Apple is doing this already.

00:35:09   So it's like Deep Fusion is taking multiple things and it takes time to do it.

00:35:14   And so what you end up with is you tap and then it spins and then you tap and then it spins while it's taking these photos and then processing them.

00:35:21   So it has an API for third parties that is deferred processing.

00:35:25   The idea there is you tap, it saves a temporary thumbnail to your photo library and immediately makes the button available for you to take another picture.

00:35:35   And then at idle time, essentially, it will do the Deep Fusion processing and all that that it needs to do and update that in your library so that you end up with the final photo, but it's deferred.

00:35:48   And then the other part of this is is reducing shutter lag, where it's doing a rolling buffer of full quality images.

00:35:56   I think it's based at 30 frames per second at full quality.

00:36:00   And so when you take an image instead of it doing what it used to do, which is, you know, you press the button on frame five and it captures six, seven, eight, nine and uses those to make an image.

00:36:12   And you if it's moving fast, you've missed the moment. Now with the rolling buffer, you take on frame five and it uses frames two, three, four, five and five is the primary.

00:36:24   And you can capture that moment. And this is all now available in iOS 17 to third party camera apps.

00:36:29   So it's great news regardless. And if some of this is informing things that are improved in the actual stock camera app, then all the better.

00:36:36   But I'm not I'm not 100 percent on that one.

00:36:39   So thank you for tuning in to the first segment of the details.

00:36:42   Oh, boy. By the way, I think about DuckTales every time I say details.

00:36:49   So if you want to add in, you know, as a listener, who afterwards you can do that.

00:36:54   That's up to you every time I say it. But that's up to you.

00:36:58   This episode is brought to you by ZocDoc.

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00:38:22   Like the call was a few minutes late. I'm sure in a if I was in the waiting room,

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00:38:56   Jason, we got tons of Vision Pro Ask Upgrade questions, understandably, over the last couple of weeks.

00:39:03   So I wanted to talk about a bunch of these, see if we can answer some of the questions from the upgrade-ians.

00:39:10   If you want to send in your Ask Upgrade questions, you can always go to upgradefeedback.com and do that.

00:39:15   First one comes from Bronwyn who asked, "How was the sound on the Vision Pro?

00:39:20   Is it just blasting out to the room from the ear pods so someone walking by would hear the movie that you're watching?"

00:39:26   I mean, yes. Blasting is not the word I would use because keep in mind the sound is, the pods are above your ears, right?

00:39:35   So they're shooting kind of down into your ears from there, which means that they don't have to be too loud.

00:39:41   But certainly if you're watching a movie, especially a noisy scene in a movie and somebody's sitting right next to you,

00:39:48   they will hear it. They will absolutely hear it. It's not a privacy sort of thing.

00:39:54   If you want that, this is the thing, remember when we were like, are they going to include AirPods if it costs $2,500?

00:39:59   It costs $3,500 and they're not going to include AirPods. But this is the answer to that question, which is,

00:40:04   that's the default. They want it to be immersive where you're hearing the room around you, not shutting it out.

00:40:09   And you're also hearing what's coming from the Vision Pro and it seems like they're all coming from the same place.

00:40:15   But if you need privacy, you don't want to bother other people or you're on an airplane where it's so noisy in the ambient soundscape that you can't hear it.

00:40:24   That's what they said very specifically is, if you're on an airplane, you're not going to be able to hear what's going on.

00:40:29   You just won't. Then you put in AirPods for that. So yes, these are leaky.

00:40:34   And they will, I don't know how much because I didn't experience being next to somebody who was using this,

00:40:40   but they're going to be based on my experience with the Quest stuff. It's going to sound great to you, but other people will hear it. Right?

00:40:50   Definitely. I mean, I don't know how loud. As well, the audio, I didn't really think about it, which I think tells me it was good.

00:40:59   I don't really have any particular thoughts about it. So it just felt natural, which probably to me felt like I was wearing AirPods.

00:41:08   It just sounded like there were AirPods in my ears or whatever, but I could still also hear the people talking to me,

00:41:14   even if there was audio playing on the videos or whatever that I was watching. So the audio was good.

00:41:21   But yes, it's not bone conduction or anything like that. They're actual speakers and they're just firing towards your ears.

00:41:28   So it's not as loud, I'm sure, as if you were just watching something on an iPhone, but definitely going to be disruptive to people around you.

00:41:37   You would need to wear AirPods if you wanted to have privacy.

00:41:42   Or in a noisy environment where it's going to bother you.

00:41:47   It's funny thinking about ways that Apple's philosophy here has influenced products that we've already seen,

00:41:55   but essentially this is similar to transparency and noise canceling in AirPods where there's a pass-through and then there's a closed off.

00:42:06   So if you were in an immersive environment, that might be a perfect time to put in AirPods.

00:42:11   I honestly wonder, Mike, if AirPods will automatically change modes when you go into an immersive environment.

00:42:20   If you're wearing AirPods, that it would be transparent when you're seeing everything around you.

00:42:24   And if you go immersive, it turns on noise canceling, right? Maybe.

00:42:29   Steve asks, "How could you imagine using the Vision Pro throughout a normal week?"

00:42:35   So I've been thinking about this a bunch.

00:42:38   I think one of the easiest places for me is real focused work.

00:42:44   So when I'm doing prep for shows, it's usually an hour to two hours where I'm just going until it's done.

00:42:52   And I could imagine finding a fully immersive environment to be really nice.

00:42:58   Like, I've got a couple of windows open and I'm in a forest or something, and I think that would be kind of cool.

00:43:05   Similarly, I've heard a few people mention this as well, of different environments for different kinds of work to help get you in the mood to be focused on certain things.

00:43:14   And then similarly in the day, I like to give myself breaks and maybe I'll watch a YouTube video or something.

00:43:21   If I was to do those in Vision Pro, it would probably be a better environment and experience than anything else that I was doing.

00:43:27   And then it would also be short periods of time, which I still think, at least in the beginning, will be more comfortable.

00:43:35   What about you?

00:43:37   Yeah, that makes sense. Yeah, I think I was trying to think about it.

00:43:41   Again, I work at home alone, so I can think of scenarios where I could use this potentially for productivity.

00:43:48   And I think the way you put it is a focused kind of focused work in certain cases.

00:43:54   I think there's a question of, would I use this to write? I don't know.

00:43:57   I do move from place to place in my house sometimes in order to shift context and write something away from my desk.

00:44:05   I don't always write at my desk. I would say half of the things I write are somewhere else.

00:44:10   So I might use that in some ways for whether it was writing or whether it was the planning and brainstorming and other stuff like that that I might benefit from it.

00:44:21   I will have to try it out and see, but I could see it being possible. I don't know. Can I go sit in the backyard and have a big screen in front of me and have that be a different experience?

00:44:34   I honestly don't know. I'm looking forward to trying it out.

00:44:38   This is also before we've seen other types of experiences. We've had just the basic kind of system stuff.

00:44:46   This is before there's this app that I'm already using, which I like, but the Vision Pro experience of it is going to be so much better then.

00:44:57   We just don't know what that's going to be yet.

00:45:00   The obsidian for Vision Pro where it's just like a spider web and you're flying through space.

00:45:05   Maybe though, right? It turns out that nobody knew it, but this app that you use every day is made for Vision Pro. We just didn't know until someone tried to do it.

00:45:18   Could be.

00:45:20   Roland asked, "Are you surprised that Apple has put the digital crown on a third product? Could you have imagined it would become so prolific across their product lineup?"

00:45:30   I'm honestly not because I remember one of all of those rumors we had back in the day for the Apple Watch.

00:45:39   They would always be like, "A crown? Like on a watch? And you could use it as an image?"

00:45:44   I always felt like those reports were a little bit skeptical or baffled or curious about Apple choosing that as an interface approach.

00:45:54   My recollection is that when I first heard about it, I thought, "Oh, that's perfect."

00:46:01   You can press it in, you can spin it. It's like a natural small input.

00:46:06   I'm a little surprised that Apple has tried to take it to other places and it's on the AirPods Max and it's now on this.

00:46:13   I think Apple, it's a little like panic saying, "Let's put a crank on the Playdate."

00:46:21   I love thinking outside the box a little bit about an input mechanism and saying, "We have a circular input mechanism that allows people to dial things in and out."

00:46:33   It feels a little more natural for certain use cases than pressing a button.

00:46:38   And it does. Honestly, if Apple's devices weren't so thin, I think they would have done this in other places too.

00:46:47   I think the wheel is a more natural way to adjust the volume than pressing an up or down button on the side of an iPad or an iPhone.

00:46:56   But a wheel will not fit. A crown will not fit over there. I guess they could do it edge on. That would be an interesting idea.

00:47:02   It would probably take up too much space to have a whole big wheel.

00:47:05   But in certain products where they can place it in the right place, I think it makes sense.

00:47:11   I'm not that surprised because I always thought it was a great idea and I kind of love the digital crown. I think it's a good fit.

00:47:20   What about you, Mike?

00:47:21   I like it a lot too and I like it on the AirPods Max. It's awesome on the AirPods Max.

00:47:26   And so it's not surprising to me as a way of being able to have that, especially the way that Apple is doing it.

00:47:31   The progressive kind of immersion to AR. I wouldn't have believed you when you showed me the first time I saw it on an Apple Watch for you to tell me that would be on two more non-watch products within five years or whatever it's been.

00:47:47   Apple doesn't like buttons but they like crowns.

00:47:49   That was a surprise to me because I remember at first I think I was a bit skeptical about the digital crown. Is this actually good or is it only here because watches look like this?

00:48:02   That was my initial thought on the digital crown as an idea. I wasn't completely sure.

00:48:09   And this was one of those ideas of how what we thought the watch was changed so much. At first people called it a one-handed device. That was what it was referred to as.

00:48:23   The watch is just a one-handed device. But the watch is actually more a two-handed device than an iPhone is.

00:48:28   But we just didn't really understand it until we actually really used these things of what they require from the interface perspective. Why would you not just swipe your finger? Well, because you cover the entire screen when you do that.

00:48:42   And so the crown works perfectly. It's just a funny thing to now imagine this watch thing now on a headset. But it's just a good control.

00:48:51   If I had a criticism of it having used it for 30 minutes, I would say that it feels to me more natural if it was on the side of the Vision Pro instead of the top.

00:49:02   Because reaching with your finger and turning a dial where you sort of have to stick your elbow out because the plane is even with your eyes instead of it being perpendicular.

00:49:17   It's on the right side of the Vision Pro but it's on the top surface, not the side surface.

00:49:23   And I think that if it was on the side surface it would be a little more natural to dial it in and out but you kind of have to reach up top to do it.

00:49:30   So I think that that's just the way it's designed. To get to home you have to press. You press it. It is the home button. And that feels uncomfortable to do?

00:49:40   So my theory there is that there will be a gesture for home as well as probably a voice cue for home. They really didn't talk about voice at all.

00:49:50   I'm sure that we have voiced cue. That's for sure.

00:49:52   The whole time after we were done I kept thinking, "Surely voice commands are a part of this experience."

00:49:59   Like surely that is another way to navigate through all of this and they just weren't willing or ready to show it to us.

00:50:07   Because every time I reached up to press the button to show the apps I thought, "It's nice. It's fine."

00:50:14   But it does break you out of the "I'm just sitting here with my hands in my lap and I'm looking at content and I'm tapping with my fingers."

00:50:21   Now I reach up to the device and press the button. Surely there is a better way to bring those apps up than that.

00:50:26   And I think there probably are multiple paths that we just weren't shown.

00:50:30   It also does the centering thing in case people don't know this. All VR headsets have this just to make sure that the UI that you want to see right in front of you is actually right in front of you.

00:50:46   So you press and hold and it centers the UI. So it does that too.

00:50:50   It's a little like if you're wearing AirPods in spatial audio and it recenters itself where if you're looking at a TV and the sound sounds like it's coming from a little further to the left.

00:51:04   I hate that feeling when it does the recentering. It makes me feel really uncomfortable.

00:51:08   And then it goes "boop" and it pops it to the center. Well yeah, that's just for people who maybe haven't had a VR headset experience.

00:51:14   But yeah, it's super important. I was sitting on the couch looking straight ahead in the demo room and the app list came up and it was off to the left a little bit.

00:51:24   And once they told me I could press and hold the crown in order to center the view where I was looking, it's like "Oh yeah, I know how to do that because I do that all the time in the meta quest."

00:51:34   And then it was an easy gesture to do to recenter. Although again, giving a command to recenter with my voice or using a gesture might be another way to do it.

00:51:43   But we didn't see those.

00:51:45   Jason asks "Why did Apple make the Vision Pro a computer instead of just a fancy display? It's a shame to have to spend so much on a computer that will age just like a laptop does.

00:51:55   Does Apple really think you're going to upgrade this every couple of years like we upgrade our other devices?"

00:52:01   Well, I don't know what Apple thinks about upgrades with this thing. I think they're focused on just getting it out there.

00:52:07   I've got a couple thoughts here. One is just a fancy display. I think part of the challenge is what can you do with connecting to other devices.

00:52:20   So like this device will work with Macs that are made after it's gone, you know, after it's shipped that are much more powerful and it will work with them, right?

00:52:32   But it also runs apps itself. I do wonder in the long run, we were talking about the Ultra Wideband earlier, I do wonder, it's going to know where your iPhone is.

00:52:42   Your iPhone is already going to be pushing widgets onto your Mac. Like, is there a scenario where all of Apple's devices, however new they are, will be able to basically be brought up in the view?

00:52:53   And so instead of running them on that app on the device, you'll run it on, or on the Vision Pro, you'll run it on the iPad and just display it on the Vision Pro wirelessly.

00:53:03   It could happen. I think the challenge is that Apple didn't want to make something that was physically tethered to a Mac, which would have solved this problem, but would have caused a lot of other problems.

00:53:15   They also were rumored to have come up with some sort of breakout box that you'd stick on a Mac and that would wirelessly beam everything back to the Vision Pro and they didn't want to do that.

00:53:26   There are latency issues. And then separately from that I would say, just a fancy display. The problem is you need enormous amounts of processing power just to be a display.

00:53:38   Even on the basic level, in order to place windows on screen and look around and interact with things, it's not just a display. It's a huge amount of power to do that.

00:53:48   So this is the package they wrapped together. Obviously they didn't like, "Why doesn't it run Mac OS?" It's like, that is too far. It can't do that. But it can run iPhone and iPad apps.

00:53:59   So I think this is the way they cut it. I don't think it could ever have been just a display. I do think there may be potential to run future devices on it remotely instead.

00:54:13   And how are we going to upgrade it? I do think that in the end Apple expects that there will be an upgrade cycle for this, I don't know how many years.

00:54:21   But we're in the early days yet where none of that has even been established. This is not a product that is as mature. I would say this is not a product that's even as mature as the iPhone or Apple Watch or iPad were when they came out.

00:54:35   This is a category that is, you've got to go further back than that. I keep saying the original Mac, but that's what this feels like.

00:54:43   This is really expensive technology that has a big price tag. Lots of people are not going to be able to remotely afford it. The people who do, it's going to be a stretch to get one.

00:54:55   Because you're in the earliest cutting edge days of this tech. So it's going to be a while, I would think, before we get a really strong idea about the upgrade cycle.

00:55:06   For me, it's kind of like, what's the point if it's just a display? What's the point?

00:55:12   It's a $3500 accessory for all your other Apple products that you have to buy.

00:55:16   Or it would be like $2500 or $1500 or whatever, right? Because if it didn't have its own computer...

00:55:22   And it still would have, that's the thing, it still absolutely has to have its own computer.

00:55:26   It has to have stuff.

00:55:27   I think in fact the ability for it to run iPad and iPhone apps is not a function of Apple saying, "We think this is a computer."

00:55:34   I think that's a function of Apple having to build a computer to run this thing. And at that point they're using a version of iOS that they've modified that's now Vision OS.

00:55:43   And it has the capability to run those apps, so why wouldn't you let them run those apps?

00:55:47   But it is a computer because it has to be to do VR and AR. It just has to have that power. It can't not have that power, I think.

00:55:55   But it's also not just that it runs iPad apps. It also will have its own apps. And I think this is the whole point of it.

00:56:04   Apple are making something here which could also be the future of computing.

00:56:09   They have decided they're going to go full on, dedicate operating system, we have a new term, it's called spatial computing.

00:56:16   We imagine a world in the future where this is the computer people use as well as their iPhone or whatever, right?

00:56:24   And they tried having a separate computing box that ran wirelessly or came from a Mac or whatever.

00:56:33   All the reports say they tried that stuff and they said, "No, we want this on device."

00:56:36   And I'll tell you, this is one of those cases where you can look at what happened in the world of VR.

00:56:41   And the VR companies, once they could get a smartphone chip and put it in a headset so that there wasn't a tether anymore, they all did it.

00:56:51   Because having to tether causes a lot of trouble, a lot of complexity. It's just not great.

00:57:00   You really do want to run stuff on device when you can, if at all possible.

00:57:05   And also, one of the worst things about the first Apple Watch is it didn't run things on its own.

00:57:09   Yeah, I know, right?

00:57:10   And it made that device bad.

00:57:11   The iPhone had to project everything onto it, yeah.

00:57:14   I think this is the right move for where they want it to be.

00:57:19   It's created a first-generation device which is way too expensive, which is why it opens up that question of how often will it be updated.

00:57:28   I'll tell you, for the first maybe five to ten years of this product's life cycle, it will be too frequent and too expensive.

00:57:34   Because that's just where it's going to be.

00:57:36   But over time, I reckon it will probably become more like a Mac that you'll upgrade.

00:57:42   Because it will be a higher price, at least a pro model, that you'd maybe upgrade it every multiples of years.

00:57:48   But then the goal is that there will be a cheaper version, which you'd upgrade as often as you'd upgrade an iPhone, whatever that's going to be for you.

00:57:54   I think that's the goal, but it's like how or will they get there? We don't know.

00:58:00   But at first, whether it's, you know, it might be every year or every 18 months or every two years, that it will be like a new version.

00:58:08   But there will be, I reckon, probably quite big jumps in that because the technology is in its infancy.

00:58:15   Exactly.

00:58:16   Which means if you get in on this, expect to pay too much money too often, like if you go in on the first one.

00:58:22   But that's kind of like the early adopter problem, right?

00:58:24   Yeah, exactly right. That's what it is.

00:58:28   We got, it's not in here, but we got some feedback from somebody who basically said, "This is too expensive and I can't buy it."

00:58:34   Yeah.

00:58:35   I hear you, right? But that is, I mean, the MacBook Pro is really expensive too.

00:58:42   A lot of early tech is very expensive.

00:58:44   This is not a product that is at the place where it's for everybody. It's not.

00:58:49   No, by design. Like actually by design this time.

00:58:52   I have those moments when I realize that even stuff that I consider relatively recent are things that predate some of our listeners' time paying attention to the tech world.

00:59:01   It's like, "Oh boy." You know, but this is one of those where we all have to go back a long way, probably before our time for many of us, which is why I keep bringing up the '80s and the personal computer.

00:59:13   In the '70s and '80s, personal computers cost a huge amount of money.

00:59:18   It was a reach. Even families that were like, "Computers of the future, we need to get a home computer for our kid."

00:59:26   Like the first home computers were incredibly expensive. Even the cheap ones were expensive and they were the cheap ones.

00:59:35   Where it was like Commodore 64 was cheaper, but you had to attach it to a TV screen, like an Apple II.

00:59:43   And then the Mac was really expensive. And it was good. And then it took years for those prices to go down.

00:59:50   This is where we are with this. Apple's not saying, "Yeah, everybody in the world is going to want one and they're going to pay $3,500 for it."

00:59:58   That's not what's going on here. This feels so much like the early days, and I suspect it will follow that path of what you said,

01:00:05   which is you're going to get, unlike the first iPhone in a way, the rate of change those first few iterations will be enormous,

01:00:14   as the technology improves and as the software improves. But this feels like we've actually reached rudimentary early days with this tech.

01:00:24   This is all still trying to be figured out.

01:00:28   Ramon asks, "Throughout the years we've seen the Apple Watch turn into a nice complement to the iPhone.

01:00:34   I wonder, how do we think the watch can or will complement the headset?"

01:00:39   I don't know. I mean, I would say Ultra Wideband might allow you to do things like glance at your watch and get a hologram of what's on your watch or something like that.

01:00:50   I think that's kind of an interesting thing, is just in your perception to be able to have it.

01:00:55   My other thought is that the Apple Watch has sensors on it, so you might be able to make some gestures with a hand that's got an Apple Watch on it

01:01:03   that Apple would be able to understand more finely than they do using cameras to track your hands. Or maybe not. I don't know.

01:01:11   I'm unclear about whether anything... I know you can use phones and stuff and see them through the display and that people tried that,

01:01:19   but I'm unclear about whether anything is going to complement this headset beyond something like AirDrop or other continuity features or putting a Mac screen in it.

01:01:29   I'm unclear whether any of them will.

01:01:31   Maybe it would be a nicer way to see notifications. The notifications thing I'm still not sure on.

01:01:38   What is that going to be like with Vision Pro? Getting notifications just in general?

01:01:43   Beaming into my eyes is a lot to me. I'm a bit hung up on that, how the notification thing would work.

01:01:55   I would really like to just get them on my watch and then I can choose to look down on them or not, depending on what I'm doing in an environment, rather than me being in this immersive thing.

01:02:06   And then it's like, "Jason says hi!" It's just like, "Okay, please leave me alone. I'm doing something."

01:02:13   I'm intrigued to see what that's going to be like. Maybe this could be a way to do that.

01:02:18   Them tying in together, I can't imagine the Apple Watch being a companion to the Vision Pro in the way that it is to the iPhone.

01:02:26   And I think as time is going on, it feels to me like the Apple Watch will kind of always be a companion to the iPhone.

01:02:34   To me, it kind of feels like... I know it can run on its own, but it's still only kind of.

01:02:40   And I don't imagine a scenario where the watch could be any more separated from the iPhone than it currently is.

01:02:47   So it will always be one and two of a pair together.

01:02:52   I can see that, but I think that its primary function will always be as a part of a larger thing connected to an iPhone.

01:02:59   I just think that apps just aren't a thing really on the Apple Watch anymore.

01:03:06   People have abandoned that and it continues to happen more and more.

01:03:10   So you could never get all of your notifications on your Apple Watch.

01:03:14   Right. I mean, yeah, they're coming from your iPhone at that point.

01:03:18   Or they're coming from the push notification service.

01:03:21   Which, again, Apple could do some things there.

01:03:24   But you're right. I would also say, I don't think it's that apps are not on the Apple Watch.

01:03:28   I think that a lot of people who thought, "Oh, my app on the Apple Watch makes sense,"

01:03:31   realized that it doesn't make sense. And that's fine.

01:03:34   Because the apps that I use on the Apple Watch are very good and they're very specific.

01:03:38   But there are also a bunch that I downloaded and then they were no good.

01:03:43   So it's okay if they go away. That's natural. It's fine.

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01:05:58   I have.

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01:07:47   So it is the summer of fun, and I thought we could start by talking about our summer plans.

01:07:54   Jason, what are you getting up to this summer?

01:07:57   Oh, the summer plans. Summer plans.

01:07:59   Well, my summer plans start with WWDC, as we know, and we kicked off the summer of fun with you in my office.

01:08:07   Next up for that, like it never ends, next up for that was going to Oregon.

01:08:13   So my kids both go to the University of Oregon, although stay tuned, about to change.

01:08:20   So last week I had to move my son out of his dorm.

01:08:25   That was on Thursday. My daughter is graduating from college tomorrow.

01:08:32   So I had to rent an Airbnb for a week, basically, because I had to come up and move him out.

01:08:38   But we didn't really want to go back down and then come back up.

01:08:42   So we've been hanging out here, and then Lauren came up to join us, and then we'll go to the graduation tomorrow, and then we'll go home.

01:08:49   So there's this thing that's like, it's weird, it's like a little sojourn or something, like it's not quite a vacation, but kind of a vacation.

01:08:58   Like, because we're cool on our heels in Eugene, Oregon for a handful of days between the move out and the graduation.

01:09:06   So it's been fun. We've been hanging out with the family and going out to dinner and stuff like that, and that's been a lot of fun.

01:09:12   So I guess that counts, right? Like that's kind of a, it's a summer thing anyway.

01:09:16   I am, you know, you hear like this too, right? You look at the betas, right?

01:09:24   And there's this whole thing about like, I gotta get these OS betas and I gotta start using them.

01:09:29   And there's the, I'm using them on another device, or I'm using them a little bit.

01:09:32   And then there comes that moment at some point where you just have to embrace it and say,

01:09:36   I guess I'm just living on this now because I need to be aware of this so that I can write about it.

01:09:40   And for me, that also gets carved up in a couple of different ways because usually I try to write a fairly lengthy piece

01:09:48   about a couple of the operating systems for the public beta drop, which presumably will be in July like it always is.

01:09:54   So there's some impetus there when I get home to really start diving in so that I can do the public beta coverage.

01:10:01   And then you, you know, throughout the summer you're wrestling with betas and, you know, does this work and does this not work?

01:10:07   And can I put this on this Mac? Oh no, I can't because I can't do audio hijack right now or whatever.

01:10:13   Like all of that stuff is going on. I have my photos book for Take Control.

01:10:18   I will presumably update that again depending on what is new. There are at least a handful of things that are new in the photos app.

01:10:24   So that's a thing that takes time because I have to dig through that, the beta version of that, and I have to go through the book

01:10:29   and I have to find every reference that's just something that has changed and change them all in order to do an update.

01:10:34   That sounds like fun.

01:10:37   I've been doing that for a few years, you know. Every year, not to tell tales out of school, but every year I look at how much time I put in

01:10:43   and how much money the updates make and the book makes ongoing and is it worth it to keep it updated.

01:10:49   And thus far it's always worth it to keep it updated so I will keep doing it.

01:10:54   But it's always, it's almost a tradition now. I've been doing that for so long.

01:10:59   I want to see some baseball games. I've got some tickets that I bought, including to the game that we went to.

01:11:05   I just bought a bunch of tickets. There was a sale. I bought a bunch of tickets to go to some Giants games, so that will be fun.

01:11:10   And then I've got some summer travel. We're going to Portland to see a bunch of friends.

01:11:15   We've got a weekend where we're going.

01:11:18   You spent a lot of time in Oregon.

01:11:20   Oh, there's so much Oregon.

01:11:22   You might as well just move.

01:11:24   We'll see where our kids end up and then maybe going to see our friends who live in Minneapolis,

01:11:31   but we're actually going to go, it sounds like to a cabin on a lake in Wisconsin, which I can't wait to do

01:11:37   because that feels very like Midwestern summer.

01:11:42   It feels like a different kind of summer, right?

01:11:44   Things that I've pictured but have never experienced, so I'm looking forward to that.

01:11:48   And we're going to go do a thing with Lauren's family in the mountains in Colorado in August.

01:11:54   So I've got a bunch of travel. Looking at it, there's a lot of travel going on there.

01:12:00   So that's my summer. What are your summer plans?

01:12:02   Well, for me, I don't want to go anywhere.

01:12:05   Travel is a zero in the whole household by design.

01:12:11   Our next thing will be Podcastathon, I expect.

01:12:16   We're definitely not going to be leaving the country.

01:12:23   And maybe we'll do some things in the UK, but that's not planned right now

01:12:29   because we're going to be spending time working on our home this summer.

01:12:33   We actually have some decorating beginning tomorrow.

01:12:37   So we're having some people come in and take care of a bunch of stuff that we need to be done.

01:12:41   And then over the summer, we'll be at lots of general improvement stuff, like finally getting some furniture that we want.

01:12:47   Maybe getting some garden furniture so we can actually enjoy our garden in the summer.

01:12:52   Yeah, that's nice. Good idea.

01:12:54   Which would be a different thing for us, having a garden and experiencing what that would be like.

01:12:59   But also in general, enjoying our neighborhood.

01:13:02   Spending more time around, seeing different pubs and different restaurants and shops and stuff

01:13:09   that's in our surrounding neighborhood and experiencing a little bit more of what that will be like.

01:13:15   Because it will be our first summer.

01:13:17   We have a new niece in the family.

01:13:20   Congratulations.

01:13:21   Thank you.

01:13:22   We can spend more time there.

01:13:23   I'm going to be seeing her again this weekend.

01:13:24   So that would be nice.

01:13:25   Kind of see if I can help out my brother a little bit and that kind of stuff as their new parents.

01:13:33   I'll be finishing the member special.

01:13:36   It's coming.

01:13:37   The member special is coming.

01:13:39   I'm hoping, no commitment, I'm hoping by the end of June it will be done.

01:13:44   But cannot commit to that.

01:13:47   But the Cortex upgrade member special, it was recorded a long time ago.

01:13:51   And then the whole May, June, good but nightmare kind of work took over.

01:13:59   But now I'm going to get back to editing that again.

01:14:02   We're looking at work stuff. It didn't take you a lot of convincing, but you did convince me to get a Mac Studio.

01:14:09   And so that is going to be a thing that's going to happen to me sometime in the summer.

01:14:14   I'm going to get a Mac Studio and I think that's going to mean I'm going to have to, and want to,

01:14:19   redo a bunch of desk stuff at the studio to kind of make a little bit more sense for me.

01:14:27   Which will also include, I want to change up a little bit about the camera angles for video, for the show, for the video clips we've been doing.

01:14:34   Which by the way, just some top quality content over the past week.

01:14:39   After having Jeremy hanging around with us, you also set up the multi-camera thing.

01:14:45   So if you're not following either our TikTok or Instagram or some Mastodon for those, you're really missing out right now.

01:14:51   There's some good content.

01:14:53   Yeah, I heard from somebody who basically wrote in to say, "I don't enjoy these."

01:14:58   It's like, okay. I mean, you don't have to. I prefer to just listen to the podcast.

01:15:03   It's like, well, the podcast is the thing. It is the primary thing. That is what it is.

01:15:08   All the videos are sort of like, they're fun. They're little tidbits.

01:15:10   Maybe they get some people interested in the show who haven't heard about it before.

01:15:13   Great. That's sort of the idea. Bring them in. Say, "Oh, these guys sound interesting. Maybe I will listen to their podcast."

01:15:20   But they are, if you want, little bonus things.

01:15:23   I've also heard from some very nice people who are like, "Oh, I just listened to that episode and then I watched the video."

01:15:27   I was like, "Oh, that was really funny to see our expressions and all of that stuff."

01:15:31   So it's there if you want it. We're kind of having fun experimenting with it.

01:15:35   I think it's been proven to be, I think we feel like we're pretty happy with it creatively.

01:15:40   So that's a good thing.

01:15:42   We had our first breakout on TikTok.

01:15:44   Oh, yeah. Was it the one where I said negative things about TikTok?

01:15:49   Is that the one?

01:15:51   No. Reaction, it's called, as Jeremy's titled it,

01:15:54   Reaction to Apple Vision Pro from two people that used it personally. It says 65,000 views.

01:15:59   Oh, man. That title, Chef's Kiss to that title. Good job, Jeremy.

01:16:03   The one where you were negative about TikTok has 7,000 views. That was our previous breakout.

01:16:08   Okay. See?

01:16:09   Turns out that new Apple products drives attention. What a shock.

01:16:14   People want to know about the Vision Pro.

01:16:16   That's been fun and I want to kind of redo the camera angle that I have.

01:16:21   In my space, it's going to mean that I need to basically reorganize the entire desk recording thing that I have.

01:16:30   But I feel like that's going to be something I'm going to work on.

01:16:32   And then also, I will put, like you, at some point, I will dig in to the basics.

01:16:39   And I want to be a little bit more intentional with that than I have been in the last few years,

01:16:44   where I've kind of just like haven't really dug into the new software updates as much as I used to.

01:16:52   And I want to be a little bit more intentional with that this year.

01:16:54   But it does take the work from me because the time where I would usually put the most effort in,

01:16:59   which is August and September, is more busy for me now than it used to be with the podcast.

01:17:05   But I'm going to try and just be a bit more intentional with making sure that I'm really up to date with what is going into iOS 17.

01:17:13   Because I think it's a good year. It's actually going to start with me rewatching the keynote, which I haven't done yet.

01:17:18   Which I usually don't need to do, but this year I feel like I maybe didn't absorb it as much.

01:17:24   Yeah, it's harder when you're there.

01:17:26   Yeah, and then also just like everything before the Vision Pro just got ejected out of my memory

01:17:31   because the Vision Pro stuff was so fascinating, right?

01:17:33   Sure.

01:17:34   And so especially that first part, I want to rewatch that first part of the keynote.

01:17:38   So I'm going to take care of that too over the next couple of weeks.

01:17:41   See, I'm actually really looking forward to this summer.

01:17:43   I'm going to try and make it as low-key as possible, but I think it'll be a good one.

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01:20:25   Let's finish out with some Ask Upgrade questions.

01:20:30   We have more. They're just regular ones.

01:20:33   These come from Matthew. Oh, well, actually this one is a Vision Pro one.

01:20:37   It felt a little bit more fun.

01:20:39   If you could add the Vision Pro in any color, which would you want?

01:20:43   Stealth color that dynamically matches my skin and hair so it looks invisible.

01:20:52   No. Oh, Jason, that's so gross.

01:20:56   If there's any color I don't want the Vision Pro to be, it's skin color.

01:21:01   Clear. Clear is different to skin color.

01:21:05   Either way, active camouflage, I don't know.

01:21:08   It's not going to create the negative space, right?

01:21:12   It's just going to be like your head is all big.

01:21:14   I think Apple wants it to be as neutral as possible, so that's why it is as neutral as possible.

01:21:20   But yeah, so I don't have a serious answer here.

01:21:23   I do like the silver. I actually think the silver that they chose just looks nice.

01:21:27   But if I was going to choose a color from Apple's current lineup, I do really like the midnight color.

01:21:33   And I would dig that. But the silver I actually think is really good.

01:21:37   Yeah, it's fine. Again, it's neutral. I think that's what they're going for here, is just keep it neutral.

01:21:41   And I expect that there will be strap options color-wise.

01:21:46   I guess. Sure.

01:21:48   Bruce asks, "What do you do when your Mac's internal storage is nearly full?"

01:21:54   I mean, I'm old school, so I will display size of all folders in the Finder and sort by size

01:22:03   and look for giant folders and expand them and find out what's in them and find the giant things,

01:22:08   find the giant stuff that's sitting in my downloads folder, is there weird stuff in my podcast recording folder,

01:22:16   my movies folder, or my iTunes media folder that I can get rid of.

01:22:21   Or you can look at the storage settings and that gives you some hints about things.

01:22:27   Maybe empty the trash, because sometimes there's just a lot of stuff in the trash.

01:22:31   So I'm pretty old school about it.

01:22:34   I use CleanMyMac. I'm a Setapp subscriber and that comes with it.

01:22:38   I've also used DaisyDisc in the past too.

01:22:41   I've found that over time it's getting harder and harder to work out how much space there is actually available on my Mac.

01:22:47   And so I used to do that more, like you said, of just displaying all folders and size.

01:22:53   I mean, it's especially even harder with Dropbox now and file providers and all that kind of stuff.

01:22:59   So I like a tool that can just work it out for me so I don't have to pay attention to it.

01:23:04   And there's purgeable storage now, which shows as being free, but it's really just stuff that the system can purge.

01:23:11   And yeah, fortunately I don't have to deal with this a lot, but I was doing...

01:23:17   It was actually those files that Apple was giving us that I was supposed to post from the video files of our thing at Apple Park.

01:23:26   And I realized that I couldn't fit it on my MacBook Air's drive because it didn't have enough space for it.

01:23:34   So yeah, I always go back to the classics, but there are lots of tools that'll let you do it.

01:23:40   Howard asks, "With the release of the 15-inch MacBook Air, I was wondering what you think the chance is of Apple releasing an Air that's smaller than 13 inches?"

01:23:50   What the chance is, I like that. So I can just say like 23%?

01:23:59   You can say 23%. I think 6%. I don't think this is...

01:24:02   6%?

01:24:03   I just don't buy it. I know there was a rumor of it, but I just don't know.

01:24:08   I feel like they would just say to buy an iPad now.

01:24:12   Yeah, I think that there's an argument to be made that Apple is happy to have the 13-inch Air be the smallest Mac screen available.

01:24:20   And that they've designed their interface around it.

01:24:23   And that, let me tell you, there are even things in the 13-inch Air where it feels like...

01:24:29   I occasionally see dialogue boxes and things where I think, "You didn't test this on a small display, did you?"

01:24:35   Where it's like, it's a little too big and it doesn't really fit on the screen.

01:24:38   Because somebody, a developer with a very large screen, designed that app.

01:24:43   So to take it down further to...

01:24:46   And again, it probably wouldn't be 11, it would be 12, so it's only just a little bit down from the 13-inch.

01:24:51   The reason I give it 23% or whatever is, they did a sub-notebook design with the MacBook.

01:24:59   With Apple Silicon, they could bring that back. I think it would be an interesting product.

01:25:03   I don't think it would be a huge seller, but we're in an era where Apple has realized that the MacBook Air is their most successful product.

01:25:12   And that, as they did with the iPhone and the iPad, why don't we create variations on this product that's very popular?

01:25:18   So people have more to choose from. And so they've done the 15-inch Air.

01:25:22   So I would say never say never, because it gives them the opportunity to make another small laptop that people might buy.

01:25:31   That said, it does sort of feel like Apple sort of played this game, and they made that MacBook, and it didn't really work.

01:25:41   And time has moved on, and they feel like the 13-inch Air is probably small and light enough that they don't need to go further down.

01:25:49   So I think it's not impossible. Yeah, Mike, 6%, it might be closer to what it is, but we're talking about an infinite timescale here.

01:25:57   So it could happen at some point. When the 11-inch was around, it was the cheapest, right?

01:26:04   Yeah, I think so. I think that also makes it complicated.

01:26:09   Yeah, I don't think that would happen this time, but I don't know.

01:26:13   For the record, I would love it, because I'm a former 11-inch MacBook Air user, and although I love this 13-inch MacBook Air,

01:26:20   if they made something that was like the 12-inch MacBook, I would be really interested in that computer.

01:26:25   Especially if it was just an M2 or an M3. Just the same, just tiny.

01:26:32   I would also be interested, because smaller is for what I want, smaller is better.

01:26:38   Right, but the 13-inch Air is pretty small.

01:26:41   I don't think a 12 would be that much different.

01:26:44   Yeah, it's not much wider than the 11, it's just deeper. And the screen is going closer to the edges.

01:26:52   It's already light, it's fanless. It's got a lot of those features.

01:26:56   I keep coming back to the fact that I think Apple maybe feels that this is a solved problem,

01:27:01   and that the people who want an even lighter laptop, a subnotebook, that there aren't enough of them for it to sell.

01:27:07   And that's probably true, even though it pains me to say so.

01:27:13   Stuart asks, "If Phil Schiller asked you how WWDC could be improved, what changes would you suggest?"

01:27:22   What do you think, Mike?

01:27:24   So I think that one of the things that would help make the new format, which I think we can see is definitely what we've seen,

01:27:33   more like the old format, would be some community activities.

01:27:39   For the people that are there, whether they're developers, media, people in the area,

01:27:45   either because they live around there, or people that are coming in, which I spoke to multiple people who had just come,

01:27:51   even though they didn't have a pass because they wanted to be around the excitement,

01:27:55   I think more community activities would be good, and that could be like a party of some kind, or like space.

01:28:04   So one of the things very helpful for us was that the visitor center was turned into the media filing center.

01:28:12   Well, that took away the ability for anybody who was not media to go into the visitor center.

01:28:20   So that was complicated.

01:28:22   Well, they could go into the store, but not the café.

01:28:25   Right, but the café was like a hangout spot for the days leading up to WWDC.

01:28:30   Well, then it was taken away.

01:28:32   So like giving spaces for people to congregate.

01:28:36   Similarly, I think it would be cool if Apple programmed a live podcast festival.

01:28:42   So pick your favorite shows, or pick the shows that you want, and give them a space with a stage and great audio,

01:28:55   you know, maybe indoors, outdoors, whatever you want to do.

01:28:58   Like how basically Apple gave us a space, why not make it live audiences, you know, like live podcast festival.

01:29:07   Why not, right?

01:29:08   It seems like it would be a fun thing to do.

01:29:10   There were already a bunch of shows that would happen, you know, maybe in future years.

01:29:15   Why not just program it and make it like part of the whole thing?

01:29:19   It's an interesting idea.

01:29:21   I think they've dialed this in pretty well, so most of my observations are just really just tiny logistical changes.

01:29:29   The press area, I think, has those, the problem you said, which is it eliminates a hangout area for everybody else to be in the café there.

01:29:36   And we had unusual, you know, Tuesday was cold and it rained, which they had roped off.

01:29:43   They know that it's too small, because they had roped off an area outside for people to work to.

01:29:47   And then it rained and we were all inside and it was, it's just too small a space.

01:29:53   I don't know how they solved that in terms of giving the press an area that they can go to work.

01:29:58   You know, maybe they should take, is there space in the Steve Jobs theater?

01:30:03   Is there space in the developer center?

01:30:06   I feel like maybe that they should just, if they're going to have a press covering these events,

01:30:10   maybe they should create a space, you know, use an existing space that's bigger than the café at the Apple store.

01:30:16   And it would allow people to actually congregate at the café at the Apple store too.

01:30:20   A friend of the show, Chance Miller, points out serve real food at the visitor center.

01:30:25   I would throw that in there too.

01:30:27   I thought the food was all, this is turning a little ATP here, but like, I thought the food that Apple served was nice in that it was sort of fancy,

01:30:36   but it was also weird.

01:30:39   And I had some issues, I also had like briefings and things where I ended up not having lunch on Monday

01:30:46   because there was never any food. There were like snacks.

01:30:52   I was offered lots of cookies for lunch.

01:30:56   It's like, well, a cookie is not lunch.

01:30:58   And so I feel like there's, maybe there's, again, I don't want to be the entitled reporter who's like, give me free food, Apple.

01:31:05   I don't want to be that, but I would say if we're looking for constructive feedback, I think the food was weird and could be better,

01:31:14   especially if in the press area, if you got people working in there to have something a little more substantial.

01:31:21   There was only a brief window where there were things that could be arguably called food.

01:31:25   And then the rest of the time it was sort of like water and cookies.

01:31:30   I don't really know what was going on there.

01:31:32   One of my highlights of WWDC was hearing Jason say jackfruit.

01:31:37   That was one of my favorite ones.

01:31:39   They had a barbecue slider, but it was a barbecue jackfruit slider.

01:31:42   And I was like, what is that?

01:31:46   I mean, I ended up disassembling a fried chicken sushi roll or something and having the chicken and the rice.

01:31:54   Anyway, I don't want to complain too much about it, but I felt like this was an example where I mean,

01:31:58   Apple was maybe getting a little too clever.

01:32:02   I would say, there was a bunch of food that I really liked.

01:32:07   And it's just like a personal taste thing.

01:32:09   I'm not saying I'm right or you're right or whatever, but there was some stuff that I loved.

01:32:14   Like I said, I think it was fancy and I think that it was very good quality and it was very Apple.

01:32:19   I had that moment where, like I said, Chance says they could have served real food.

01:32:26   Like, I don't know. I mean, I could have used a turkey sandwich instead of a jackfruit slider.

01:32:31   Yeah, you missed it. There was a fantastic turkey sandwich on Monday, but you were just scooting around from event to event.

01:32:36   I was in a briefing and the food at the briefing center was just cookies.

01:32:41   The same cookies that we had later at the pie cast. Anyway, it's fine.

01:32:44   I've learned my lesson. I got to bring my bag of almonds or whatever with me.

01:32:47   And I didn't do that. And I regret it now.

01:32:51   Anyway, I think the larger issue is that the press area is just too small and then it cuts off people from hanging out in that area.

01:32:57   And I know that this is all Apple never intended to hold an event like this here and they don't really have a space for it.

01:33:02   They've done a pretty good job with it. They really have.

01:33:05   But that's just it struck me that, you know, if you're going to have a filing center for press because you've called all this press there.

01:33:10   And in this case, we were there for two days. They asked press like, please stay for the second day because they had the vision pro demos and all of that.

01:33:17   I think they need more space on that.

01:33:20   By the way, we got some some anonymous feedback that really made me laugh where someone at Apple was complaining to us about the vision pro demo thing.

01:33:30   Like they took away our soccer field.

01:33:33   I thought that was just very funny to me is like a it's okay.

01:33:39   Your soccer field will come back. How badly do you need the soccer field?

01:33:43   I thought that was very funny.

01:33:44   Soccer league has to play somewhere else.

01:33:47   And yeah, so more broadly, I would just say if people really are going to come regardless of the event, not just developers and press, but like other people are going to start to come like they did in San Jose.

01:33:59   I would say this is sort of what you said about the podcast festival ideas. Just like, is there a way for Apple to support more outside events?

01:34:06   They did send their executives to the talk show in San Jose at the California theater.

01:34:11   Right. So like I just I would think about that a little bit more if I was talking to Phil or somebody else about WWDC is like, are there other ways to extend the, you know, the week and to make it feel a little more like, yeah, you could come even if you weren't able to go on campus and there will still be stuff for you to do in the evenings because everybody is there and they want to hang out.

01:34:36   Maybe is there a way for Apple to facilitate that a little bit?

01:34:40   The counter argument would be that Apple is so huge and Apple wants to do like big things that they could be like a bull in a China shop and they'll be like, we help you.

01:34:50   And then they smash things and you're like, no, no, no, no, no.

01:34:54   Let's let that let everything happen organically.

01:34:56   And I do think the community will do it.

01:34:58   But I think if WWDC is just a two day thing, it's going to be harder for the community to bolster its own stuff.

01:35:09   Right. Where like, let's say me and you decided we wanted to do a live show.

01:35:13   We would have to do it on Monday or Tuesday.

01:35:15   Right. Yeah. To make sure that people were going to be there.

01:35:18   And so that becomes complicated.

01:35:21   So I think if there were more things happening on Wednesday and Thursday that maybe Apple was helping to put on, then it might encourage people to stay a little bit longer.

01:35:32   And then more meetups and events could occur around WWDC again, where people could be confident that they would actually be attendees because there are less attendees now.

01:35:45   And that's going to continue.

01:35:47   It used to be your baseline was 5000 people and then whoever was on top.

01:35:52   Now it's probably a thousand people and whoever's on top, which is making it more complicated for ancillary events.

01:35:59   Well, I was going to say one thing that they could do differently if they really wanted to increase the number of developers who could come to this event is put the press in the Steve Jobs theater for the event and put the developers at Cafe Max.

01:36:10   And you could increase the size of your event.

01:36:12   I'm not sure Apple wants to do that, though. Right. Because then there's that much more overhead and that much more security and that much more everything else.

01:36:18   I think they're there. Honestly.

01:36:20   When when I saw this question, my initial reaction was I think they've got it pretty well dialed in.

01:36:25   Again, I can make little complaints about, you know, what kind of food got served or like the size of the press area, but really because it rained and otherwise it would have been OK.

01:36:35   Like all of my complaints about this are very small. I think they I think they got it wired in year two.

01:36:41   I think it's pretty good.

01:36:42   I have no real ways that I feel like they should change what they are doing.

01:36:47   Like the actual WWDC part is perfect.

01:36:50   This is just like, do you want it to be a community event? If you do, here are a couple of ways you could consider doing that.

01:36:57   But it is not Apple's responsibility to do that.

01:37:00   Right. How do you keep this approach? But also and I did feel like with something like the talk show happening at the California theater,

01:37:06   I did feel like they were at least acknowledging the fact that this is a little bit more than just what's happening on day one or day one and two,

01:37:16   and that there are some other things going on. The question is, do you know if you're Apple, do you want to push that at all?

01:37:24   Or do you want to just sort of like lay back and let it happen or not and and not be involved in it?

01:37:31   I don't I honestly don't know.

01:37:33   I mean, and they also had like that page on the website like they always do, like highlighting the things that were happening.

01:37:40   Right. So like there were some other events that were occurring in Cupertino, like the James Dempsey show, like there were others.

01:37:47   There was other stuff going on. Oh, by the way, as well, at the moment on the developer page, you can give your feedback for WWDC.

01:37:56   So you go to developer.apple.com. If you listener have feedback like they have that.

01:38:04   We'll just assume that if maybe this has been heard by someone, Phil, if you're out there, you know, these are our recommendations to you.

01:38:11   More food, I think is what we're looking for.

01:38:14   If you would like to send us feedback, follow up or questions for future episodes, go to upgradefeedback.com and fill in the form there.

01:38:22   Thank you to all of you that do. You can check out Jason's writing over at sixcolors.com.

01:38:28   You can hear his shows at the incomparable dot com and here on Relay FM.

01:38:32   You can listen to my shows, of course, here on Relay FM and check out my work at cortexbrand.com.

01:38:37   You can find us both on Mastodon. Jason is at J Snell on zeppelin.flights.

01:38:42   I am at iMike, I am YKE on mike.social.

01:38:45   You can also find the show as @upgrade on relayfm.social where you can watch video clips that we post of the show, but they are probably best seen on TikTok and Instagram.

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01:38:59   Thank you to our members who support us with Upgrade Plus. You can go to getupgradeplus.com and get longer ad-free versions of the show each and every week.

01:39:07   Thank you to our sponsors of this week's episode. That is the Human Creator Alliance, Factor, Zopdoc and Elektrik.

01:39:14   But most of all, thank you for listening. Until next time, say goodbye to Jason Snell.

01:39:19   Goodbye, Mike Hurley.

01:39:21   [Music]

01:39:33   [ Silence ]