Upgrade

00:00:00 ◼   ► (upbeat music)

00:00:02 ◼   ► From Relay FM, this is Upgrade, episode 457.

00:00:13 ◼   ► Today's show is brought to you by Squarespace and Fitbud.

00:00:16 ◼   ► My name is Mike Hurley, I'm joined by Jason Snell.

00:00:19 ◼   ► Hi, Jason Snell.

00:00:20 ◼   ► - Hi, Mike Hurley, how are you?

00:00:22 ◼   ► - Yeah, I'm a little under,

00:00:22 ◼   ► whether you could probably hear it.

00:00:24 ◼   ► - Yes, I do.

00:00:25 ◼   ► - I've got that going on today.

00:00:26 ◼   ► I've got the low voice.

00:00:28 ◼   ► We'll see if I still have a voice by the end of the episode.

00:00:31 ◼   ► - Okay. - 50/50 odds.

00:00:33 ◼   ► - Oh, if you lose your voice during this episode,

00:00:35 ◼   ► I think you will have been proven wrong

00:00:37 ◼   ► about deciding to soldier on and do this episode, right?

00:00:40 ◼   ► - That is true, yes.

00:00:41 ◼   ► - Like if I have to get Steven Hackett to tag in

00:00:43 ◼   ► at the midway point.

00:00:44 ◼   ► - Yep, then I made a mistake.

00:00:47 ◼   ► - Then, yeah.

00:00:47 ◼   ► - We'll find out.

00:00:49 ◼   ► - Happy bank holiday to you.

00:00:50 ◼   ► - And to you.

00:00:51 ◼   ► I have a Snell Talk question that comes from John.

00:00:55 ◼   ► And John says, "We know that Jason uses an ember mug,

00:00:58 ◼   ► "but what is his preferred temperature for tea?"

00:01:01 ◼   ► - Oh, preferred temperature.

00:01:04 ◼   ► This gets us into dangerous Casey List territory.

00:01:08 ◼   ► - Okay.

00:01:09 ◼   ► - 'Cause I have to explain my preferred temperature to tea

00:01:13 ◼   ► in Fahrenheit and then translate it into Celsius.

00:01:17 ◼   ► So I'm just saying. - No, you could just say

00:01:18 ◼   ► in Fahrenheit, if people really wanna know,

00:01:20 ◼   ► they can do the calculation. - No, I've looked it up now.

00:01:22 ◼   ► No, no, no, I'm full service.

00:01:24 ◼   ► I'm full service about this stuff.

00:01:25 ◼   ► 160 degrees Fahrenheit.

00:01:28 ◼   ► Would you have any guesses about how much that is in C?

00:01:31 ◼   ► - 2000.

00:01:31 ◼   ► Is it 2000 degrees Celsius?

00:01:35 ◼   ► - 2000 Kelvins, yeah, that's exactly it.

00:01:37 ◼   ► I like it.

00:01:38 ◼   ► I like it to melt the cup.

00:01:38 ◼   ► - That's like 80?

00:01:40 ◼   ► - It's 70.

00:01:41 ◼   ► - 70, okay.

00:01:43 ◼   ► - 70 C, 160 degrees Fahrenheit.

00:01:45 ◼   ► That's what I like it.

00:01:46 ◼   ► I did not know.

00:01:47 ◼   ► It's funny, okay.

00:01:50 ◼   ► So John asked this.

00:01:53 ◼   ► I am not one of those people who's like,

00:01:56 ◼   ► "Oh, what is the ideal temperature for my tea?

00:01:58 ◼   ► "I shall find out."

00:02:00 ◼   ► And then many years ago I was like,

00:02:01 ◼   ► "Sip, oh, it's too hot.

00:02:02 ◼   ► "Sip, oh, it's too hot.

00:02:03 ◼   ► "Sip, oh, now it's just right.

00:02:04 ◼   ► "Get the quick read thermometer in there.

00:02:06 ◼   ► "Whoa, it's 161 degrees Fahrenheit, that's it."

00:02:09 ◼   ► And now let's see how long this range goes.

00:02:10 ◼   ► Sip, still fine.

00:02:11 ◼   ► Sip, still fine.

00:02:12 ◼   ► Sip, mm, it's a little cold.

00:02:14 ◼   ► Stick it in, oh, 155.

00:02:16 ◼   ► Now we know my range.

00:02:17 ◼   ► I have never done anything that scientific about this.

00:02:20 ◼   ► But then the Embermug has you set

00:02:22 ◼   ► your preferred temperature.

00:02:23 ◼   ► And I had that moment where I realized

00:02:27 ◼   ► I need to find out what my ideal temperature is.

00:02:30 ◼   ► However, it is come in useful

00:02:32 ◼   ► because there are also times where the teapot, the tea robot

00:02:36 ◼   ► which keeps things warm for about an hour.

00:02:39 ◼   ► After an hour, it doesn't keep it warm anymore.

00:02:41 ◼   ► And I'll come out there and there'll still be some tea.

00:02:44 ◼   ► And what I do now, now that I know 160 or 165,

00:02:48 ◼   ► somewhere in there is the right amount,

00:02:50 ◼   ► is I press the hot water button on the teapot.

00:02:53 ◼   ► And I just watch as it goes up in temperature

00:02:58 ◼   ► until it hits 160.

00:02:59 ◼   ► And then I press the button and refill my teacup.

00:03:02 ◼   ► So now I know, but it's funny 'cause I had,

00:03:06 ◼   ► I literally, I knew there was a temperature

00:03:08 ◼   ► that was just right,

00:03:10 ◼   ► but I had never even thought about measuring it

00:03:12 ◼   ► because what would be the benefit of it?

00:03:13 ◼   ► And then I got the Embermug and I was like, okay,

00:03:15 ◼   ► I guess I need to know this.

00:03:16 ◼   ► So I believe my Embermug is set to 160, maybe 165.

00:03:19 ◼   ► And that's also the range that I shoot for

00:03:21 ◼   ► when I'm heating up tea in the,

00:03:24 ◼   ► reheating the tea in the teapot that's gotten cold.

00:03:28 ◼   ► - And now we know.

00:03:29 ◼   ► - And now you know, right?

00:03:30 ◼   ► So now you can try that.

00:03:31 ◼   ► You could try that listeners

00:03:33 ◼   ► and all the upgradings out there,

00:03:34 ◼   ► they can have their tea Jason style,

00:03:36 ◼   ► which is at 160 degrees and determine, is that too hot?

00:03:39 ◼   ► Is that too cool?

00:03:40 ◼   ► What's wrong with me?

00:03:41 ◼   ► Or is it just right?

00:03:42 ◼   ► - If you'd like to send in a snow talk question of your own,

00:03:45 ◼   ► just go to upgradefeedback.com

00:03:47 ◼   ► and you could submit a snow talk question

00:03:50 ◼   ► for us to open a future episode of the show.

00:03:52 ◼   ► Thank you to John for writing that in.

00:03:55 ◼   ► Jason, I hate that.

00:03:56 ◼   ► Never do that again.

00:03:57 ◼   ► - Just drinking some tea over here.

00:03:59 ◼   ► - I guess, how would we know you were drinking tea

00:04:01 ◼   ► without the sounds, but not great.

00:04:04 ◼   ► I have some follow up for you.

00:04:07 ◼   ► So Brandon writes in and says,

00:04:10 ◼   ► you both spent some time on last week's episode

00:04:13 ◼   ► talking about the role that fitness will have

00:04:15 ◼   ► with Apple's upcoming headset.

00:04:16 ◼   ► We have more of that today actually.

00:04:18 ◼   ► Brandon asks, have either of you tried Supernatural

00:04:21 ◼   ► on your meta quest?

00:04:22 ◼   ► I was skeptical, but immediately got hooked

00:04:25 ◼   ► on their VR fitness programs.

00:04:26 ◼   ► So two things about this.

00:04:29 ◼   ► - Okay.

00:04:30 ◼   ► - Well, three things.

00:04:31 ◼   ► Supernatural is like a fitness game

00:04:32 ◼   ► kind of experience app thing.

00:04:35 ◼   ► - Very popular.

00:04:36 ◼   ► - Point two, this is a company that meta is trying to buy

00:04:41 ◼   ► and I don't know if they will be able to,

00:04:45 ◼   ► it's getting blocked.

00:04:47 ◼   ► Three, for some reason that I do not understand,

00:04:49 ◼   ► Supernatural was never available outside of the US

00:04:52 ◼   ► and Canada, so I never tried it.

00:04:53 ◼   ► - Huh, weird.

00:04:54 ◼   ► I have not tried it.

00:04:55 ◼   ► I've heard good things about it from friends.

00:04:57 ◼   ► I downloaded it because my wife was interested in it

00:05:00 ◼   ► and she said she might try it, but she has yet to try it.

00:05:04 ◼   ► And I'm kind of happy with my Beat Saber

00:05:08 ◼   ► for getting a sweat going.

00:05:11 ◼   ► And otherwise I realized that you could argue

00:05:15 ◼   ► that my meta quest two is essentially a ping pong product

00:05:20 ◼   ► for me, like I play 11 table tennis more than any other app

00:05:25 ◼   ► on that thing and I love it.

00:05:28 ◼   ► As a kid who grew up with a ping pong table

00:05:30 ◼   ► and then doesn't have room for one, I do love it.

00:05:33 ◼   ► But Beat Saber is my choice, but I'm curious about it.

00:05:37 ◼   ► I would like to try it sometime.

00:05:39 ◼   ► I think I got, I realized that in the end,

00:05:41 ◼   ► there's probably a trial, but you gotta pay a subscription

00:05:45 ◼   ► and all that and I just kind of didn't,

00:05:47 ◼   ► that was enough of a barrier for me to like,

00:05:49 ◼   ► I might've idly tried it, but I wasn't gonna,

00:05:51 ◼   ► I just wasn't gonna deal with it, so I haven't tried it.

00:05:53 ◼   ► But I've heard very positive things about it

00:05:55 ◼   ► and those are the things that make me believe that,

00:05:57 ◼   ► that and my Beat Saber experience make me believe

00:05:59 ◼   ► that fitness is an actual interesting niche for Apple

00:06:03 ◼   ► to explore with VR, especially since they're already

00:06:07 ◼   ► doing fitness content in a couple of different ways, right?

00:06:11 ◼   ► With Fitness Plus and with the Apple Watch.

00:06:13 ◼   ► - Yeah, I hear a lot of people talk about Supernatural

00:06:16 ◼   ► as kind of being like the only thing that they do

00:06:17 ◼   ► on their meta quest and or it was like the reason

00:06:20 ◼   ► that they continue to use it.

00:06:22 ◼   ► The thing about this that I'm not sure about yet is,

00:06:26 ◼   ► I think this works because it's a game.

00:06:30 ◼   ► It's not like a fitness class.

00:06:34 ◼   ► And I feel like Apple's more likely to do a,

00:06:38 ◼   ► we have a Fitness Plus class that you're gonna do

00:06:41 ◼   ► inside of VR.

00:06:44 ◼   ► - I mean, they could gamify it though.

00:06:45 ◼   ► I think that's the, I think the most likely scenario

00:06:48 ◼   ► is that they will try to gamify it a little bit

00:06:50 ◼   ► like they do currently and it's not really gamifying it,

00:06:54 ◼   ► right, to put up your rings and say your burn bar,

00:06:58 ◼   ► you're slightly ahead of the pack or whatever.

00:07:00 ◼   ► Yes, I think it's an interesting question about,

00:07:02 ◼   ► is Apple itself gonna be able to take advantage of VR

00:07:07 ◼   ► in the way that you might need to

00:07:10 ◼   ► to make it a compelling fitness experience?

00:07:12 ◼   ► Or will they work with a partner?

00:07:14 ◼   ► Or will somebody just come onto the platform

00:07:17 ◼   ► and do it right and have Apple go, yeah, use that

00:07:21 ◼   ► or buy them or whatever?

00:07:23 ◼   ► - Yeah, I think the answer is kind of like yes

00:07:25 ◼   ► to all of those things realistically.

00:07:27 ◼   ► Like I think that, well, I could imagine

00:07:31 ◼   ► if Meta pull off this acquisition

00:07:33 ◼   ► that they would put this Supernatural on the Apple headset.

00:07:38 ◼   ► If people think that's wild what I just said,

00:07:40 ◼   ► Meta owns Beat Saber, Beat Saber's on PlayStation.

00:07:44 ◼   ► - Yeah.

00:07:45 ◼   ► - So like they're not silly.

00:07:47 ◼   ► It's the same as Microsoft own in Minecraft.

00:07:49 ◼   ► Like you own these things to make money from these things.

00:07:53 ◼   ► Maybe you provide a slightly different experience

00:07:54 ◼   ► on your own platform in some way.

00:07:56 ◼   ► Maybe it's cheaper on your platform or whatever.

00:07:59 ◼   ► But realistically you still want to be where the market is

00:08:03 ◼   ► and maybe they put a version of it there.

00:08:05 ◼   ► 'Cause in the same way that if it can run

00:08:07 ◼   ► I expect Beat Saber to find its way

00:08:09 ◼   ► to Apple's headset as well.

00:08:11 ◼   ► - Yeah, I think there is,

00:08:13 ◼   ► it's actually a little similar to the streaming business

00:08:17 ◼   ► where there was a period where everything was sort of like

00:08:19 ◼   ► I'm gonna just erect a bunch of walls around my stuff

00:08:21 ◼   ► and nobody else can come in.

00:08:23 ◼   ► And then they got to the point where it's like,

00:08:25 ◼   ► oh no, actually we can make more money

00:08:27 ◼   ► doing, letting other people have our stuff too.

00:08:30 ◼   ► Right, like there was a calculation there.

00:08:32 ◼   ► And I think that maybe there's some of that calculation

00:08:34 ◼   ► from Meta, which is if we own Supernatural

00:08:38 ◼   ► and Apple's got a headset

00:08:39 ◼   ► and Apple's headset is gonna be popular, we make money.

00:08:43 ◼   ► - Yeah.

00:08:44 ◼   ► - Right, not only does Apple give

00:08:45 ◼   ► the entire VR headset thing legitimacy,

00:08:47 ◼   ► which they care about,

00:08:48 ◼   ► but they also would make money from it because of their app.

00:08:53 ◼   ► And I feel like we're in an era now

00:08:55 ◼   ► where there's more scrutiny of that sort of business practice

00:08:58 ◼   ► of like, we're not gonna forego revenue just out of spite

00:09:02 ◼   ► and make people buy our headset.

00:09:03 ◼   ► And I think people would also point at Apple's headset

00:09:06 ◼   ► and say, really, is that it?

00:09:07 ◼   ► You're gonna withhold Supernatural and you think,

00:09:09 ◼   ► I mean, the danger is actually that somebody else

00:09:11 ◼   ► builds something that's as good as Supernatural

00:09:13 ◼   ► or almost as good as Supernatural on Apple's platforms.

00:09:16 ◼   ► And that gives them an injection of momentum

00:09:19 ◼   ► that leads them to become more powerful than Supernatural.

00:09:24 ◼   ► And that's really bad for meta.

00:09:26 ◼   ► So we'll see, but you're right.

00:09:29 ◼   ► That might be the answer is that Supernatural

00:09:31 ◼   ► just goes on Apple's platform.

00:09:33 ◼   ► Yeah.

00:09:34 ◼   ► - More on VR and fitness, Zach wrote in and said,

00:09:36 ◼   ► in the most recent episode,

00:09:38 ◼   ► you mentioned Apple Fitness+ workouts with the headset

00:09:40 ◼   ► and expressed interest in having some immersive workouts.

00:09:44 ◼   ► I wonder if the Time to Walk series

00:09:46 ◼   ► could be used here as well.

00:09:47 ◼   ► It'd be really cool to actually walk along the path

00:09:49 ◼   ► that the guest is narrating about and see for yourself

00:09:52 ◼   ► instead of just hearing sounds and seeing still images.

00:09:55 ◼   ► - So here's the problem is VR exercise works

00:09:59 ◼   ► with moving your body around in place,

00:10:02 ◼   ► or potentially if you're on a stationary bicycle

00:10:06 ◼   ► or something, I guess this might work

00:10:08 ◼   ► if you're using a treadmill, but otherwise it doesn't work.

00:10:12 ◼   ► I mean, I guess, okay, you could do it

00:10:14 ◼   ► in augmented reality mode, but now you're walking

00:10:16 ◼   ► around your neighborhood wearing a headset.

00:10:18 ◼   ► I don't think that's a really good scenario.

00:10:20 ◼   ► So I think it's an interesting idea,

00:10:22 ◼   ► but I just don't, unless it was a time

00:10:24 ◼   ► to walk on the treadmill kind of thing,

00:10:27 ◼   ► that could be interesting, right?

00:10:28 ◼   ► And I think that there will be innovation in those areas,

00:10:31 ◼   ► bicycles and treadmills and other things,

00:10:32 ◼   ► but you gotta be able, otherwise in VR,

00:10:35 ◼   ► you're basically in a space unless you're flipping it over

00:10:38 ◼   ► to augmented reality mode,

00:10:39 ◼   ► because otherwise you're gonna run into stuff.

00:10:41 ◼   ► And I don't think we're at the point culturally

00:10:43 ◼   ► where people are gonna be walking around

00:10:44 ◼   ► with the Apple headset outside.

00:10:46 ◼   ► - Good point.

00:10:47 ◼   ► - Also, I wanted to mention David Schaub

00:10:49 ◼   ► in our members Discord pointed out something

00:10:52 ◼   ► that I was also thinking, which is Apple seems to be solving

00:10:55 ◼   ► for weight in this product, right?

00:10:58 ◼   ► Based on all the reports that they're gonna put

00:10:59 ◼   ► the battery outboard in your pocket or whatever,

00:11:02 ◼   ► and they want the headset to be light.

00:11:04 ◼   ► I wonder if one of the calculations there is,

00:11:07 ◼   ► it's gotta be light if you're gonna really make it

00:11:09 ◼   ► a fitness product, and the lighter it is,

00:11:11 ◼   ► the more receptive you're gonna be

00:11:13 ◼   ► to using it for fitness.

00:11:14 ◼   ► And I think there's something to that.

00:11:16 ◼   ► - Yeah, I agree, but I would say that a cable

00:11:20 ◼   ► to a battery pack is not-

00:11:21 ◼   ► - Not ideal.

00:11:22 ◼   ► - Conducive to fitness.

00:11:24 ◼   ► - Yeah, I mean, depends, right?

00:11:25 ◼   ► Depends on how they do it, but you're right.

00:11:27 ◼   ► There's other danger there.

00:11:29 ◼   ► - On a completely different note, Chris writes in

00:11:33 ◼   ► about titanium and color.

00:11:36 ◼   ► So to kind of try and close this,

00:11:38 ◼   ► 'cause we've gone back and forwards on this a bit.

00:11:40 ◼   ► So Chris says, "It is possible to achieve a wide range

00:11:44 ◼   ► of both subtle and vibrant color when anodizing titanium

00:11:48 ◼   ► using either heat or electricity.

00:11:50 ◼   ► Electricity is the way Apple would go

00:11:52 ◼   ► since it's highly repeatable and uses similar equipment

00:11:56 ◼   ► to their current aluminum anodization process."

00:11:59 ◼   ► - Right, right.

00:12:00 ◼   ► And this is something that has been reported

00:12:03 ◼   ► that the Profones will be made out of titanium,

00:12:07 ◼   ► or will have the titanium ring instead of the stainless steel

00:12:10 ◼   ► which is great 'cause it's lighter.

00:12:11 ◼   ► And there's a lot of speculation about color ability with it

00:12:15 ◼   ► because the stainless, I think, is a little bit harder

00:12:17 ◼   ► to get the bright colors in.

00:12:19 ◼   ► I love hearing this.

00:12:21 ◼   ► It's no guarantee that the Profones

00:12:23 ◼   ► will have any interesting colors,

00:12:24 ◼   ► but it means that if they don't,

00:12:27 ◼   ► Apple can't use the titanium as an excuse

00:12:30 ◼   ► because the titanium frame can take color.

00:12:34 ◼   ► It's just a question of if Apple will provide any.

00:12:37 ◼   ► - Yeah, the electricity is interesting.

00:12:40 ◼   ► This has a name that I've heard before.

00:12:43 ◼   ► I think some of this stuff is done in keyboards.

00:12:46 ◼   ► Sometimes the color is called E-White.

00:12:49 ◼   ► I think it's like basic, is it electrolysis?

00:12:53 ◼   ► Electrolysis.

00:12:53 ◼   ► - Yeah, I mean, that's what anodization is.

00:12:57 ◼   ► A-node, it literally,

00:12:59 ◼   ► you're making a electrical connection and it attaches.

00:13:03 ◼   ► And it's pretty cool chemistry.

00:13:06 ◼   ► So it's good to know that, I agree with Chris,

00:13:10 ◼   ► this is the way that Apple would do it

00:13:11 ◼   ► 'cause they wanted to make it,

00:13:12 ◼   ► Apple's so familiar with aluminum anodization

00:13:16 ◼   ► that it would make perfect sense

00:13:18 ◼   ► for them to just replicate that with titanium.

00:13:21 ◼   ► And of course, everybody who's been around long enough

00:13:23 ◼   ► remembers what happened when Apple made a laptop

00:13:25 ◼   ► with a titanium frame.

00:13:27 ◼   ► And the answer is they put paint on it

00:13:29 ◼   ► and the paint flaked off.

00:13:32 ◼   ► That was actually a good lesson that Apple has learned.

00:13:34 ◼   ► But I've got a titanium Apple Watch and it's gorgeous

00:13:37 ◼   ► and they've gotten better.

00:13:39 ◼   ► Sometimes I think that they experiment

00:13:42 ◼   ► with materials like that.

00:13:44 ◼   ► Titanium on the Apple Watch gave them some familiarity

00:13:47 ◼   ► with titanium that they can now put into practice

00:13:50 ◼   ► with titanium on the iPhone, which is a much,

00:13:54 ◼   ► it's an enormous volume.

00:13:55 ◼   ► - As I'm sure the steel watches probably helped

00:13:59 ◼   ► with some of the steel for the iPhones as well, right?

00:14:03 ◼   ► - I think we don't talk about it here a lot,

00:14:05 ◼   ► but it's one of my favorite things to think about Apple

00:14:07 ◼   ► is their prowess in material science.

00:14:10 ◼   ► And I did, I've said it here a few times before,

00:14:13 ◼   ► I have definitely heard from people who say,

00:14:16 ◼   ► Apple is about the best in the world

00:14:18 ◼   ► when it comes to aluminum.

00:14:19 ◼   ► Like they've gotten very, very, very good over the 20 years

00:14:23 ◼   ► that they've been doing aluminum primarily

00:14:26 ◼   ► for so many of their products.

00:14:27 ◼   ► And they're also learning about other materials.

00:14:30 ◼   ► Like that's part of the deal here is they're not gonna,

00:14:33 ◼   ► I mean, Apple, they could take stuff off the shelf,

00:14:36 ◼   ► but I think Apple is always feels like they need to play

00:14:39 ◼   ► their own game and have their own formulation

00:14:41 ◼   ► of stainless steel and have their own process that they're,

00:14:44 ◼   ► in fact, I would almost put money down

00:14:47 ◼   ► that they will boast at least briefly about the process

00:14:50 ◼   ► that they invented that helped them do the titanium thing

00:14:54 ◼   ► on the iPhone when they introduced the iPhone in September.

00:14:57 ◼   ► - So I learned one of this kind of stuff,

00:15:00 ◼   ► especially with a watch is how I learned

00:15:01 ◼   ► one of my favorite words, which is metallurgy.

00:15:04 ◼   ► - Oh, that's a good word.

00:15:06 ◼   ► - Yeah, it's a very good word.

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00:17:30 ◼   ► So we've been talking about health stuff,

00:17:34 ◼   ► you know, we're just talking about it in follow up.

00:17:36 ◼   ► Well, Mark Gurman has a report at Bloomberg

00:17:38 ◼   ► that Apple is working on an AI powered

00:17:41 ◼   ► health coaching service alongside adding

00:17:44 ◼   ► the health app itself to iPad OS.

00:17:47 ◼   ► So a quote from Bloomberg,

00:17:48 ◼   ► "The new coaching service is designed to keep users

00:17:51 ◼   ► motivated to exercise, improve eating habits

00:17:55 ◼   ► and help them sleep better,

00:17:56 ◼   ► according to people with knowledge of the product.

00:17:58 ◼   ► The idea is to use AI and data from an Apple watch

00:18:01 ◼   ► to make suggestions and create coaching programs

00:18:04 ◼   ► tailored to specific users.

00:18:06 ◼   ► The service is planned to launch sometime next year."

00:18:09 ◼   ► So it's not necessarily something we're gonna hear about

00:18:11 ◼   ► on the horizon.

00:18:12 ◼   ► It feels like a beefing up of like the trends feature

00:18:15 ◼   ► that they added to the health app, right?

00:18:17 ◼   ► And maybe it will now go some way to recommending things.

00:18:22 ◼   ► I hope that they do a decent job here

00:18:25 ◼   ► because sometimes the trends stuff really annoys me

00:18:29 ◼   ► in the health app where it's like,

00:18:31 ◼   ► "Your VO2 stats changed."

00:18:33 ◼   ► It's like, "Is this good?

00:18:35 ◼   ► Is this bad?"

00:18:36 ◼   ► Like you don't tell, you just tell me does it change?

00:18:39 ◼   ► - That's what I was going to say is that

00:18:41 ◼   ► I have gotten one of those alerts that says,

00:18:43 ◼   ► "This stat that is complicated has changed."

00:18:47 ◼   ► And I literally don't know if that's good or bad

00:18:51 ◼   ► and it doesn't tell me.

00:18:53 ◼   ► You could just say, "This means that you're less,

00:18:56 ◼   ► you're in less good shape."

00:18:57 ◼   ► Or, "This means you're in better shape."

00:18:59 ◼   ► But instead it's sort of like,

00:19:00 ◼   ► "Oh yeah, your VO2 max changed."

00:19:02 ◼   ► No, okay, what does that mean?

00:19:03 ◼   ► Or your resting heart rate changed, what does that mean?

00:19:06 ◼   ► And also this is pitched here as being a service, right?

00:19:11 ◼   ► Which I find interesting because if it's a service,

00:19:17 ◼   ► then they're gonna, maybe it's adding on to Fitness Plus

00:19:23 ◼   ► or maybe it's rolled into a bundle and-

00:19:25 ◼   ► - Health Plus, man.

00:19:26 ◼   ► This is Apple Health Plus.

00:19:27 ◼   ► I would expect.

00:19:29 ◼   ► - Perhaps so, but not only one is that annoying

00:19:32 ◼   ► because it feels like they're just taking something

00:19:36 ◼   ► that would otherwise have been an expanded feature

00:19:38 ◼   ► of the software and making it into something

00:19:41 ◼   ► you have to pay for, which I don't love.

00:19:43 ◼   ► Like what makes this a service?

00:19:45 ◼   ► If it's truly something you have to add on,

00:19:47 ◼   ► but all it is is like an AI telling you coaching things.

00:19:51 ◼   ► Like if they, I mean, presumably they're gonna add,

00:19:54 ◼   ► they're gonna add other stuff, right?

00:19:55 ◼   ► For this truly to be a service,

00:19:56 ◼   ► they gotta have some content.

00:19:59 ◼   ► They maybe have, you know, they can talk about like

00:20:02 ◼   ► experts who were involved in building it

00:20:03 ◼   ► and that it's like, it's much more than just,

00:20:05 ◼   ► 'cause if there's nobody there and all it is

00:20:08 ◼   ► is some software to tell me you could run faster,

00:20:12 ◼   ► why would I pay for that?

00:20:13 ◼   ► Like I find that a little bit baffling

00:20:15 ◼   ► 'cause that seems like it's sort of just an elevated feature

00:20:18 ◼   ► of the operating system.

00:20:20 ◼   ► So what makes it a service?

00:20:23 ◼   ► I'm just saying, I mean, I'm not saying they won't do it.

00:20:25 ◼   ► I'm saying that I'm gonna be a little skeptical

00:20:28 ◼   ► that Apple has taken something that in years past

00:20:30 ◼   ► would have just been a feature addition and said,

00:20:33 ◼   ► no, no, no, no, no, this is something,

00:20:35 ◼   ► like justify why that's something I need to pay for

00:20:37 ◼   ► is what I'm saying.

00:20:38 ◼   ► So I'm gonna be a little bit skeptical about that.

00:20:41 ◼   ► And yes, I share your feelings about what's already there

00:20:44 ◼   ► too, which is, it's not that good.

00:20:47 ◼   ► So like I can see them doing better here,

00:20:49 ◼   ► but if I had read this report and it had said,

00:20:52 ◼   ► Apple's got some new features that are gonna make the stuff

00:20:55 ◼   ► that it tries to tell you better,

00:20:56 ◼   ► I'd be like, well, good, it needs to be better.

00:20:58 ◼   ► But instead it's like, oh no,

00:20:59 ◼   ► they're going to launch a service that makes that,

00:21:02 ◼   ► that's better than the thing that they don't do very well

00:21:04 ◼   ► right now.

00:21:05 ◼   ► It's like, well, wait a second.

00:21:06 ◼   ► Did you choose not to make the free thing

00:21:08 ◼   ► that just comes with the hardware we're buying better

00:21:11 ◼   ► because you decided instead to make a service?

00:21:13 ◼   ► I just, I'm gonna be really skeptical about this

00:21:15 ◼   ► because what they're doing now isn't that good, right?

00:21:18 ◼   ► Like I would love that.

00:21:19 ◼   ► I use those features.

00:21:21 ◼   ► I use, I'm tracking my workouts

00:21:23 ◼   ► and I'm looking at the rings and all of that.

00:21:25 ◼   ► But the stuff that they offer is not interesting to me

00:21:29 ◼   ► in any way.

00:21:30 ◼   ► So, you know, hooray for them trying to do better,

00:21:33 ◼   ► but if it's, you know, it's better,

00:21:37 ◼   ► but wrapped in a service, I don't know.

00:21:39 ◼   ► I'm not happy about that because the baseline

00:21:41 ◼   ► is not very good.

00:21:42 ◼   ► - 'Cause like Fitness Plus,

00:21:44 ◼   ► there are incremental costs to that service

00:21:47 ◼   ► to keep adding new work.

00:21:50 ◼   ► - Content, right?

00:21:51 ◼   ► - Right, it's content.

00:21:52 ◼   ► You can keep adding it.

00:21:53 ◼   ► But if this is AI and data from devices,

00:21:58 ◼   ► I mean, what's the ongoing cost?

00:22:01 ◼   ► - Imagine if Fitness Plus,

00:22:03 ◼   ► what it got you was the workout app.

00:22:07 ◼   ► So you could say run for five minutes.

00:22:09 ◼   ► - Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

00:22:11 ◼   ► - I'm like, oh no, this is a big service where we like,

00:22:14 ◼   ► no, Fitness Plus is a service because they've got trainers

00:22:17 ◼   ► and they've got a studio and they generate new content.

00:22:20 ◼   ► And that has value.

00:22:22 ◼   ► And I know, you know, and again,

00:22:25 ◼   ► offering a service for AI analysis of your data

00:22:29 ◼   ► and then like coaching that's built in is not unreasonable.

00:22:33 ◼   ► I guess what I'm saying is it feels like a tough sell

00:22:38 ◼   ► if that's all there is,

00:22:40 ◼   ► because isn't this what Apple software

00:22:43 ◼   ► is already supposed to be doing and not doing it well?

00:22:46 ◼   ► And if they make the decision

00:22:48 ◼   ► to not make their software better,

00:22:49 ◼   ► but instead build a new product that does it better,

00:22:52 ◼   ► I think that's a little bit,

00:22:54 ◼   ► I mean, I'm an Apple One subscriber presumably,

00:22:56 ◼   ► it would just get rolled into my feature set anyway,

00:22:58 ◼   ► but I don't love the idea

00:22:59 ◼   ► that they made it a software improvement

00:23:02 ◼   ► and then paywalled it essentially

00:23:04 ◼   ► for something they're not doing very well as it is.

00:23:06 ◼   ► But like I said, I think it's more likely

00:23:08 ◼   ► that there is more content here, right?

00:23:10 ◼   ► Like that it is, they're gonna say we consulted with people

00:23:13 ◼   ► and they're gonna be looking and that, you know,

00:23:15 ◼   ► we're gonna, I don't know how they're gonna pitch it,

00:23:17 ◼   ► but if it's all hands off and it's just in software,

00:23:20 ◼   ► it's not very inspiring.

00:23:21 ◼   ► - But I also could imagine it being part

00:23:24 ◼   ► of a Fitness Plus subscription.

00:23:25 ◼   ► - For sure.

00:23:26 ◼   ► - 'Cause they maybe they will be very tightly linked

00:23:29 ◼   ► together of like, you know, our data showing this,

00:23:33 ◼   ► have you considered this kind of workout to be added?

00:23:36 ◼   ► - This would be a great boost to Fitness Plus for sure.

00:23:39 ◼   ► That would be a great value add as they say to Fitness Plus.

00:23:44 ◼   ► That would totally, yeah.

00:23:44 ◼   ► - But I agree that that still doesn't answer the question

00:23:48 ◼   ► of like, if all it's doing is using data to interpolate

00:23:52 ◼   ► and show me in UI things that my Apple Watch has,

00:23:57 ◼   ► me having to pay for that is still complicated.

00:24:00 ◼   ► But I'm sure they would do, I mean, you know,

00:24:03 ◼   ► there are features in iCloud Plus that in theory

00:24:08 ◼   ► could have just been software features that Apple added.

00:24:14 ◼   ► - Yeah, yeah, I mean, some of them have server

00:24:16 ◼   ► behind the scenes, which I'm more inclined to understand.

00:24:19 ◼   ► But I mean, that gave me pause then too,

00:24:21 ◼   ► where I felt like the risk is that Apple is,

00:24:25 ◼   ► potentially is creating a platform that's got a bunch

00:24:27 ◼   ► of like tariff zones where it's like literally,

00:24:30 ◼   ► it's like on a road, right?

00:24:31 ◼   ► It's like, well, we built a new lane of the highway,

00:24:33 ◼   ► but we're not gonna let you in unless you pay.

00:24:35 ◼   ► And I don't love the idea that segments

00:24:38 ◼   ► of Apple's operating systems become places

00:24:41 ◼   ► where there are just features that you can't use

00:24:43 ◼   ► unless you pay them extra.

00:24:45 ◼   ► And so it's a delicate line to walk, is all I'm saying,

00:24:48 ◼   ► is when you're building a services business,

00:24:51 ◼   ► what's the rule that says, well,

00:24:52 ◼   ► this is just a software feature versus this is a service

00:24:56 ◼   ► that you're gonna have to pay extra for.

00:24:57 ◼   ► - Yeah, 'cause they have a lot of things

00:24:58 ◼   ► that run on their servers that you don't pay for.

00:25:00 ◼   ► So like, where's the line?

00:25:02 ◼   ► You know, and some of the say that,

00:25:05 ◼   ► what are the things in IACL Plus?

00:25:07 ◼   ► There's private relay is in there, right?

00:25:10 ◼   ► Stuff like that, it's like how much space on the server

00:25:13 ◼   ► is that taken up when you're hosting all these photos

00:25:15 ◼   ► and videos anyway?

00:25:16 ◼   ► Like, do you not have enough space

00:25:17 ◼   ► where you could squeeze that on?

00:25:18 ◼   ► Like, is it not just incremental at that point?

00:25:21 ◼   ► Like, I don't know, but I feel like-

00:25:22 ◼   ► - Private relay, I think they're actually,

00:25:24 ◼   ► aren't there servers for that?

00:25:26 ◼   ► So they have to, they pass through a separate server.

00:25:28 ◼   ► - That's a good point, yeah, that's a bad example.

00:25:29 ◼   ► - And they're using ISPs in various places or other CDNs

00:25:33 ◼   ► to be like the exit point and the entrance point,

00:25:35 ◼   ► so they can't trace you, it's double traced.

00:25:37 ◼   ► Like, that's my point is like, I'm much more inclined

00:25:40 ◼   ► to like, if Apple has to pay for all that traffic.

00:25:42 ◼   ► I'm less inclined when it's sort of like,

00:25:44 ◼   ► oh, this is just a piece of software

00:25:45 ◼   ► that we decided you don't get, unless you pay us more.

00:25:49 ◼   ► That's, I just, I always just wanna be vigilant about that

00:25:52 ◼   ► 'cause I think that's a path Apple could walk down

00:25:54 ◼   ► and it would be really dangerous for the user experience.

00:25:59 ◼   ► - Hide my email then, I think that's a better example.

00:26:01 ◼   ► - Oh yeah, sure.

00:26:02 ◼   ► - Because with sign in with Apple-

00:26:06 ◼   ► - Literally Apple's email server.

00:26:08 ◼   ► - Yeah, it's like sign in with Apple offers this feature,

00:26:10 ◼   ► right, in a way, like you can hide your email

00:26:13 ◼   ► when you do sign in with Apple, you don't have to pay for that

00:26:15 ◼   ► but you do pay for it with hide my email with iCloud Plus.

00:26:18 ◼   ► So that doesn't necessarily feel like something

00:26:23 ◼   ► that you would need to pay for.

00:26:25 ◼   ► - Yeah.

00:26:25 ◼   ► - Or like custom email domains, you know?

00:26:29 ◼   ► - So, I mean, turning back to this feature for a second,

00:26:31 ◼   ► like I think there are lots of opportunities here.

00:26:34 ◼   ► Of course, there's opportunities for people to complain

00:26:36 ◼   ► about Sherlocking, but like as somebody who's done

00:26:38 ◼   ► like the couch to 5K plan and now it's been a while

00:26:41 ◼   ► as we detailed in a previous Snell Talk, I think.

00:26:44 ◼   ► It's been a while since I've run, I'm doing a lot

00:26:46 ◼   ► of brisk dog walking with my 12 month old dog,

00:26:48 ◼   ► but I wanna get back to running at some point.

00:26:51 ◼   ► And like having been through that couch to 5K experience

00:26:54 ◼   ► a couple of times, I would love a program where I say,

00:26:58 ◼   ► "I wanna run regularly, but you need to get me up to speed."

00:27:02 ◼   ► That could actually like look, instead of it being

00:27:05 ◼   ► a prefab program, which is what those couch to 5K things are

00:27:08 ◼   ► and they work pretty well, but like, would it be cool

00:27:11 ◼   ► and interesting and maybe useful if it was literally looking

00:27:14 ◼   ► at my heart rate and my recovery and adjusting how quickly

00:27:19 ◼   ► I need to have my program adjust?

00:27:21 ◼   ► And for me to go to the workouts app and literally just say,

00:27:24 ◼   ► I'm gonna do my run thing and for it to know,

00:27:26 ◼   ► "Okay, great, I know what intervals to put you on

00:27:29 ◼   ► to get you to where you wanna go.

00:27:31 ◼   ► I know how long it's been since you ran the last time

00:27:33 ◼   ► and so I'm gonna adjust for that."

00:27:34 ◼   ► Like there's an opportunity for it

00:27:38 ◼   ► and I think it would be reasonable for that to be built

00:27:40 ◼   ► into Apple software on the Apple Watch especially.

00:27:43 ◼   ► I think you absolutely could build that in

00:27:45 ◼   ► and it would have a lot of value.

00:27:47 ◼   ► So like there's plenty of room here for stuff like that.

00:27:50 ◼   ► I think maybe I feel like maybe more stuff like that

00:27:53 ◼   ► than nagging you that you haven't run in a little while.

00:27:57 ◼   ► - Yeah, this is more proactive.

00:27:59 ◼   ► Like the Apple Watch and health are very retroactive, right?

00:28:02 ◼   ► Like you did this thing, here's the results of that.

00:28:04 ◼   ► You've done this thing and now it's changed.

00:28:06 ◼   ► But you going into the health app and saying like,

00:28:09 ◼   ► I wanna be able to run a 5K in six months time or whatever.

00:28:12 ◼   ► And it's like, all right, great, here is your exercise plan.

00:28:16 ◼   ► Like that-- - And it'll adjust.

00:28:17 ◼   ► - Yeah, knowing you.

00:28:18 ◼   ► - Oh, I only did it two times this week

00:28:20 ◼   ► 'cause that's what happens with my catch to 5K plan

00:28:22 ◼   ► is if I only ran two times this week,

00:28:25 ◼   ► then do I go to day three of the previous week

00:28:28 ◼   ► or do I skip that one and just go ahead and see how I do?

00:28:32 ◼   ► And like, it would be really nice if the software was like,

00:28:35 ◼   ► I got you covered.

00:28:36 ◼   ► Like I've changed everything to stretch it around

00:28:39 ◼   ► and it'll still work.

00:28:40 ◼   ► And that would be a cool, fun,

00:28:43 ◼   ► and it's certainly easier feature to use

00:28:46 ◼   ► than me finding an app and editing the, right?

00:28:50 ◼   ► Like I don't wanna have to do that.

00:28:52 ◼   ► So that's all, there's a lot of great potential

00:28:54 ◼   ► for stuff like that.

00:28:55 ◼   ► - And I would say I would pay for that too, right?

00:28:57 ◼   ► Like, 'cause that feels cool.

00:29:00 ◼   ► I mean, just like people pay for running training apps

00:29:02 ◼   ► and stuff now, like it would be,

00:29:04 ◼   ► and it could be again, tying it into Apple Fitness.

00:29:07 ◼   ► What if I said, I wanna be able to do

00:29:10 ◼   ► a 60 minute bike workout or I wanna,

00:29:14 ◼   ► or I wanna be able to ride my bike 50 miles

00:29:18 ◼   ► and how, what does it take for me to get there

00:29:21 ◼   ► and have it build a program for me?

00:29:23 ◼   ► All of that stuff, it's basically saying

00:29:25 ◼   ► we're gonna use software instead of you hiring

00:29:27 ◼   ► a personal trainer.

00:29:28 ◼   ► And I think that's valid 'cause lots of people

00:29:30 ◼   ► are not gonna hire a personal trainer.

00:29:32 ◼   ► So this is the next best thing.

00:29:35 ◼   ► - So more from Mark's report,

00:29:36 ◼   ► the health app for iPadOS is likely to be announced

00:29:39 ◼   ► at WWDC along with an overall redesign

00:29:42 ◼   ► of the health app for iPhone.

00:29:45 ◼   ► The app will get new features like the ability

00:29:47 ◼   ► to manually input emotional states,

00:29:49 ◼   ► basically like a mood tracker, a quote from the article.

00:29:52 ◼   ► The initial version of the emotion tracker

00:29:54 ◼   ► will let users log their mood, answer questions

00:29:57 ◼   ► about their day and compare their results over time.

00:30:01 ◼   ► But in the future, Apple is hoping the iPhone

00:30:03 ◼   ► could use algorithms to determine a user's mood

00:30:06 ◼   ► via their speech, what words they've typed

00:30:08 ◼   ► and other data on their devices.

00:30:10 ◼   ► That second part, I wouldn't do that personally.

00:30:14 ◼   ► Don't know if that's a good idea, but we'll see.

00:30:17 ◼   ► - Well, if it's all on device,

00:30:19 ◼   ► this is like that app that records everything

00:30:22 ◼   ► that you do on your Mac and indexes it, right?

00:30:25 ◼   ► Like there are concerns, although if it's Apple,

00:30:27 ◼   ► doing it and it's all on your device

00:30:29 ◼   ► and it stays on your device.

00:30:30 ◼   ► So as I am predicting slides today,

00:30:36 ◼   ► let me predict another slide, Mike, for WWDC,

00:30:39 ◼   ► which is a slide or for the iPhone event or for both, right?

00:30:42 ◼   ► Because they'll roll out the OS at the iPhone event.

00:30:46 ◼   ► It's health includes mental health.

00:30:48 ◼   ► - Yeah.

00:30:49 ◼   ► - That's gonna be the slide, right?

00:30:50 ◼   ► Which is health includes mental health

00:30:53 ◼   ► and mental health awareness is important and it is,

00:30:56 ◼   ► and that they'll say, "Here are some things

00:30:58 ◼   ► "that we're gonna do in the health app for mental health."

00:31:02 ◼   ► And including things as simple as an emotion tracker,

00:31:05 ◼   ► but also down the road, perhaps,

00:31:10 ◼   ► they find ways to sort of detect your mood.

00:31:14 ◼   ► Yeah, exactly via your speech or what you've typed

00:31:16 ◼   ► and your sentiment analysis of every text message

00:31:19 ◼   ► that you send, I don't know.

00:31:20 ◼   ► - Yeah, I'm not sure if that's good.

00:31:21 ◼   ► I'm not sure if it's good for the iPhone to be like,

00:31:24 ◼   ► "Hey, are you sad?"

00:31:26 ◼   ► I'm not sure if that's scientifically accurate.

00:31:28 ◼   ► - I just don't know if that's a good idea.

00:31:30 ◼   ► I'm not sure that's the relationship people are looking for

00:31:35 ◼   ► with their devices, like for the phone to be like,

00:31:38 ◼   ► "You seem like having a bad day.

00:31:39 ◼   ► "You having a bad day?"

00:31:40 ◼   ► I was like, "I don't know."

00:31:42 ◼   ► That feels weird to me.

00:31:43 ◼   ► - I think there's some validity to it though.

00:31:45 ◼   ► Kate in the Discord points out

00:31:47 ◼   ► that mood tracking apps already exist.

00:31:49 ◼   ► This is a thing that is a tool.

00:31:51 ◼   ► It's not gonna solve everything for everyone,

00:31:53 ◼   ► but a tool for people that has some positive result

00:31:58 ◼   ► of tracking your state and then looking back later

00:32:01 ◼   ► and seeing sort of like what's going on

00:32:04 ◼   ► as a whether it's just sort of life logging

00:32:06 ◼   ► or whether there's value in it.

00:32:07 ◼   ► I think we should, at this point, we need to say

00:32:09 ◼   ► we are not mental health experts, so we can't say,

00:32:13 ◼   ► but I feel like there could be validity here.

00:32:15 ◼   ► - I believe in this idea.

00:32:17 ◼   ► Like, please, what I'm saying is

00:32:20 ◼   ► the idea of having this feature is great.

00:32:22 ◼   ► The idea of the phone trying to guess my mood,

00:32:26 ◼   ► that's what I don't want. - Oh, sentiment analysis

00:32:28 ◼   ► based on the text you send.

00:32:29 ◼   ► - Yes. - Like I said,

00:32:30 ◼   ► I'm open to the idea that it could be

00:32:32 ◼   ► scientifically accurate, but I'm really skeptical.

00:32:36 ◼   ► - Because you've also got to be able to understand

00:32:40 ◼   ► how each person talks within each friend group.

00:32:44 ◼   ► - Yes, exactly right.

00:32:46 ◼   ► The context of every conversation is going to be different.

00:32:49 ◼   ► - I don't know.

00:32:50 ◼   ► That just feels like it's going to produce,

00:32:53 ◼   ► would produce so many false positives.

00:32:55 ◼   ► I just, I'm not sure about that.

00:32:57 ◼   ► Anyway, this, when I read this, right,

00:32:59 ◼   ► I was like, oh, emotional tracking,

00:33:01 ◼   ► feels like it would fit in with that journaling app.

00:33:04 ◼   ► Mark Gurman says, "The mood and emotion tracking features

00:33:07 ◼   ► "are separate from a new journaling app

00:33:09 ◼   ► "that Apple is planning for this year.

00:33:11 ◼   ► "That app isn't meant to be a health feature,"

00:33:14 ◼   ► the people said, "and Apple is unlikely

00:33:16 ◼   ► "to position it as such."

00:33:18 ◼   ► Mark says that this feature, the journaling feature,

00:33:21 ◼   ► more closely aligns with the Find My service

00:33:24 ◼   ► as a way to add more quote,

00:33:26 ◼   ► "social networking elements to iOS."

00:33:29 ◼   ► I don't understand any of this.

00:33:32 ◼   ► - Off the top of my head, my theory is that if you're,

00:33:34 ◼   ► if it's got Find My data, it's going to let you say things

00:33:39 ◼   ► like I was here with these people, right?

00:33:42 ◼   ► Because if you've got your friends in your Find My,

00:33:45 ◼   ► so it knows that you and I are together at WWDC

00:33:48 ◼   ► and I create my journal entry there

00:33:50 ◼   ► 'cause we share Find My information,

00:33:52 ◼   ► I always know where Mike is.

00:33:53 ◼   ► And I can say, oh, I was with Mike and Steven

00:33:59 ◼   ► and it's gonna say, I'm gonna say new journal entry

00:34:02 ◼   ► and it's gonna be like, well, you're in Cupertino

00:34:04 ◼   ► and you were with Mike and Steven today.

00:34:07 ◼   ► That's like, they've got that data, right?

00:34:09 ◼   ► So, okay, I don't know how groundbreaking that is,

00:34:13 ◼   ► but they've got that data, they could do that.

00:34:15 ◼   ► And I could see with some of their other metadata

00:34:17 ◼   ► that they've got from maps and places like that,

00:34:19 ◼   ► that if you drove through a national park

00:34:23 ◼   ► on a road trip one day, and then at the end of the day,

00:34:26 ◼   ► you do a journal entry and it like,

00:34:28 ◼   ► it knows where you woke up, it knows where you are now,

00:34:30 ◼   ► it knows where you went,

00:34:31 ◼   ► it can pull metadata about the parks,

00:34:33 ◼   ► it knows where you stopped,

00:34:35 ◼   ► it's got access to your photos that you took there.

00:34:37 ◼   ► There is a bunch of stuff that it could put together.

00:34:39 ◼   ► I don't know if I would call that social networking elements

00:34:43 ◼   ► but I think maybe that's what they're getting at here

00:34:46 ◼   ► is that with Find My, you do know like,

00:34:49 ◼   ► in an official Apple way, when you were with friends

00:34:53 ◼   ► and that they could use some of that in there to pull the,

00:34:57 ◼   ► again, they could also pull the photos of those people

00:35:01 ◼   ► that were taken that day and offer those to include

00:35:04 ◼   ► and maybe even offer to share some of that stuff

00:35:07 ◼   ► with the people.

00:35:08 ◼   ► I don't know, I mean, there's something there.

00:35:11 ◼   ► If you and I, Mike, I feel like if you and I sat around

00:35:14 ◼   ► a whiteboard for a day, trying to imagine

00:35:16 ◼   ► what our Apple journaling app would be,

00:35:19 ◼   ► we could probably crack what it is

00:35:20 ◼   ► because you can just look at their features

00:35:22 ◼   ► and sort of see where they're headed with this.

00:35:25 ◼   ► - Yeah, I do wonder though,

00:35:26 ◼   ► if this is gonna be really heavily focused around Find My,

00:35:29 ◼   ► how well it's gonna work, like.

00:35:31 ◼   ► - Well, closely aligned, right?

00:35:33 ◼   ► I don't think it's gonna be heavily,

00:35:34 ◼   ► I feel like Find My is one part of the package

00:35:37 ◼   ► because that gives them some proximity information

00:35:40 ◼   ► for your friends and then location services more broadly

00:35:43 ◼   ► lets them know where you were.

00:35:45 ◼   ► - Like, I'm just not sure how many people share

00:35:48 ◼   ► their Find My with a lot of their friends.

00:35:52 ◼   ► - I don't know, I've got, I mean,

00:35:54 ◼   ► we also have it all within the family and that's a default.

00:35:56 ◼   ► - Me too.

00:35:57 ◼   ► - If you're in the family group,

00:35:59 ◼   ► the family is there by default at least.

00:36:01 ◼   ► And so that's gonna give me my, you know,

00:36:03 ◼   ► you spent the weekend with your kids in Oregon kind of stuff.

00:36:07 ◼   ► - And I have a handful of friends in Find My,

00:36:10 ◼   ► but it's mostly because they're Apple people.

00:36:13 ◼   ► Like they're Apple focused. - Right, and we all tried it

00:36:14 ◼   ► out and now we share our locations with our friends.

00:36:18 ◼   ► Yeah, it's true.

00:36:19 ◼   ► - Yeah, I have some people who can see my location,

00:36:21 ◼   ► but I can't see theirs.

00:36:23 ◼   ► They took me away, Jason, but I won't ever let go.

00:36:26 ◼   ► Like they can see my location forever.

00:36:28 ◼   ► - I have one person like that

00:36:30 ◼   ► where I can't see his location anymore,

00:36:31 ◼   ► but he knows where I am and it's like, yeah, you do.

00:36:34 ◼   ► Yeah, you do.

00:36:35 ◼   ► Yeah, exactly.

00:36:37 ◼   ► Yeah, well, I mean, maybe part of the motivator here

00:36:39 ◼   ► is to sort of more closely integrate this stuff

00:36:41 ◼   ► to encourage Find My to be a friend, you know, attachment.

00:36:46 ◼   ► Like, do you start to, in group chats,

00:36:49 ◼   ► do you start to do more encouraging of,

00:36:52 ◼   ► why don't you just share your location

00:36:53 ◼   ► with them all the time?

00:36:54 ◼   ► Also, group chats do let you share a location like,

00:36:58 ◼   ► temporarily, so they could also do a prod there,

00:37:00 ◼   ► which is like, you know, do you want to share,

00:37:04 ◼   ► you seem like you might be getting ready

00:37:06 ◼   ► to visit your friends, should we all share our locations?

00:37:09 ◼   ► That kind of thing too, possibly.

00:37:11 ◼   ► - There have been more reports this week.

00:37:14 ◼   ► This one from The Information.

00:37:17 ◼   ► The Information is detailing some of Apple's AI efforts

00:37:20 ◼   ► and how Siri is developing at the company.

00:37:24 ◼   ► I've got some framing for this kind of, you know,

00:37:26 ◼   ► we always like to think about with some of these reports,

00:37:29 ◼   ► especially some of these bigger reports,

00:37:31 ◼   ► where are they coming from?

00:37:32 ◼   ► And this kind of, this for me came from MacRumors

00:37:35 ◼   ► writing about The Information article.

00:37:37 ◼   ► Says, "The extensive pay-ward report explains

00:37:40 ◼   ► why former Apple employees who worked in the company's

00:37:43 ◼   ► AI and machine learning groups believe that a lack

00:37:45 ◼   ► of ambition and organizational dysfunction

00:37:48 ◼   ► have hindered Siri and the company's AI technologies."

00:37:51 ◼   ► So, because of a bunch of things that we can talk about,

00:37:54 ◼   ► lots of engineers have left, continue to leave Apple

00:37:56 ◼   ► as this world heats up.

00:37:58 ◼   ► Apple is a cautious company.

00:38:00 ◼   ► The AI industry, currently right now, not very cautious.

00:38:04 ◼   ► So I could imagine there are a lot of people

00:38:06 ◼   ► who are interested in this kind of technology

00:38:08 ◼   ► who are frustrated at Apple and then leaving

00:38:13 ◼   ► and then talking about it.

00:38:16 ◼   ► And so, you know, I always feel like some of these things,

00:38:20 ◼   ► take them with a grain of salt, right?

00:38:21 ◼   ► Like, especially this particular thing,

00:38:25 ◼   ► the type of person who maybe really cares about AI right now

00:38:29 ◼   ► and wants to do interesting things in AI,

00:38:31 ◼   ► maybe Apple's the wrong company for them.

00:38:33 ◼   ► Like, I don't know, right?

00:38:35 ◼   ► But that, you know, talking about their experience.

00:38:38 ◼   ► - I mean, this is a thing that keeps coming up,

00:38:40 ◼   ► which I think there's truth in,

00:38:41 ◼   ► which is Apple is going to be way less willing.

00:38:46 ◼   ► Like, look at what happened.

00:38:47 ◼   ► Look at what happened with Microsoft and then with Google,

00:38:51 ◼   ► with this whole rush to put these things out there.

00:38:56 ◼   ► And immediately what you get is the embarrassing stuff

00:38:59 ◼   ► where the chat bot tells a reporter to leave his wife

00:39:02 ◼   ► for the chat bot, where there are like lies

00:39:06 ◼   ► and made up information and strange behavior

00:39:09 ◼   ► and other stuff.

00:39:10 ◼   ► Like, Apple doesn't want to do that.

00:39:12 ◼   ► Apple does not want to do that.

00:39:13 ◼   ► And they can't.

00:39:14 ◼   ► - Microsoft have been let go, right?

00:39:16 ◼   ► Like, people were saying Microsoft have to change this,

00:39:19 ◼   ► they have to change this.

00:39:20 ◼   ► Microsoft didn't.

00:39:21 ◼   ► And now everyone's just kind of like,

00:39:23 ◼   ► okay, they're not changing it.

00:39:25 ◼   ► This is not something that would go away for Apple.

00:39:27 ◼   ► Like, I'm reminded of it's, you know, remember the,

00:39:30 ◼   ► we brought up a bunch, we were super mad about it

00:39:32 ◼   ► at the time, the report that The Guardian had

00:39:34 ◼   ► about Siri listening to people and like, you know,

00:39:38 ◼   ► like that kind of thing, like maybe other companies

00:39:41 ◼   ► would have been let go, like, but no, we would,

00:39:43 ◼   ► like the media, which holds Apple to a higher standard

00:39:47 ◼   ► because of their scale and their size

00:39:49 ◼   ► and the way they talk about themselves

00:39:51 ◼   ► and the things that they do.

00:39:52 ◼   ► Like, if a tech columnist used a new Siri,

00:39:56 ◼   ► and as you mentioned, like Siri said,

00:39:58 ◼   ► leave your wife, I'm in love with you.

00:40:01 ◼   ► It's just not, I just can't imagine that will fly with them.

00:40:04 ◼   ► - There is a, Apple is, it's not just that Apple

00:40:07 ◼   ► has a higher standard, it is also that Apple

00:40:09 ◼   ► is held to a higher standard.

00:40:10 ◼   ► And you know, I can't envision Apple rolling out something

00:40:14 ◼   ► and saying, aha, look, it shows how committed we are

00:40:18 ◼   ► to the future of technology.

00:40:20 ◼   ► No, it's gonna make things up and lie to you now,

00:40:24 ◼   ► but, but aren't we cool?

00:40:27 ◼   ► Like, they just, they don't do that.

00:40:30 ◼   ► They don't do that.

00:40:31 ◼   ► So I think the challenge is, oh, by the way,

00:40:35 ◼   ► that the employees, one of the things they quote

00:40:40 ◼   ► in this report is these employees who are part of a purchase

00:40:45 ◼   ► who left for Google.

00:40:48 ◼   ► And I thought it was really funny

00:40:49 ◼   ► 'cause I don't actually know anything about this,

00:40:50 ◼   ► but this happened earlier this year,

00:40:53 ◼   ► and I thought, when was that purchase?

00:40:57 ◼   ► And it turns out it was like March or April.

00:41:01 ◼   ► And I'm like, yeah, I mean, also their deal

00:41:05 ◼   ► to stay at Apple probably expired.

00:41:08 ◼   ► Then they left, like there are other explanations here,

00:41:11 ◼   ► but here's what I understand.

00:41:12 ◼   ► And I think this is true of a lot of Apple stuff,

00:41:14 ◼   ► which is Apple's way of doing things is not the same way

00:41:16 ◼   ► as other tech companies' way of doing things.

00:41:19 ◼   ► And they're gonna be people who get frustrated.

00:41:22 ◼   ► And I think AI is a great example of this

00:41:24 ◼   ► because everybody's talking about their field

00:41:27 ◼   ► and nobody can see what they're doing

00:41:28 ◼   ► because they're doing it inside at Apple.

00:41:30 ◼   ► And Apple's not willing to let it out

00:41:31 ◼   ► because it's not good enough yet.

00:41:33 ◼   ► And it's like, but they did it

00:41:35 ◼   ► and it's good enough for them.

00:41:36 ◼   ► And Apple's like, that is not an answer.

00:41:38 ◼   ► We cannot do it that way.

00:41:40 ◼   ► And both of those things are true.

00:41:43 ◼   ► I get it.

00:41:44 ◼   ► I get that you might be frustrated.

00:41:46 ◼   ► So on one level, am I concerned about Siri?

00:41:51 ◼   ► Yeah, right?

00:41:54 ◼   ► We should all be concerned about Siri.

00:41:57 ◼   ► And this article makes me concerned

00:42:01 ◼   ► in the sense that it may be suggesting

00:42:03 ◼   ► that Apple's AI research is being suppressed

00:42:08 ◼   ► at the highest levels.

00:42:09 ◼   ► But as we always warn on upgrade, consider the source.

00:42:14 ◼   ► It's probably mostly people who have left

00:42:17 ◼   ► or it's people on the outside of the Siri group at Apple.

00:42:20 ◼   ► 'Cause there was some of the reports are like,

00:42:22 ◼   ► yeah, even people at Apple are frustrated by Siri.

00:42:25 ◼   ► But like, at the same time,

00:42:29 ◼   ► it is like Apple's higher standard means

00:42:34 ◼   ► that Apple needs to be cautious here.

00:42:36 ◼   ► But what I don't know

00:42:38 ◼   ► and what none of us probably know is,

00:42:40 ◼   ► is the, if Tim Cook says,

00:42:44 ◼   ► no, no, no, no, no, we can't do it that way.

00:42:47 ◼   ► Is he suppressing, is he providing support

00:42:50 ◼   ► for the idea that Apple has a higher standard

00:42:52 ◼   ► or is he suppressing any attempts

00:42:53 ◼   ► at actually doing this stuff?

00:42:55 ◼   ► And that's, I mean, it's possible that Apple standard

00:42:57 ◼   ► is so high that Apple basically can't do this stuff now.

00:43:00 ◼   ► And I guess my argument would be,

00:43:02 ◼   ► is what's it worth to you?

00:43:07 ◼   ► What's AI worth to you?

00:43:09 ◼   ► Because if they did an AI powered Siri,

00:43:14 ◼   ► that isn't, what does the story say?

00:43:17 ◼   ► There are 20 writers who pre-write Siri answers.

00:43:19 ◼   ► Cook and others senior executives

00:43:21 ◼   ► requested changes to Siri to prevent embarrassing responses

00:43:24 ◼   ► and the company prefers Siri's responses

00:43:26 ◼   ► to be pre-written by a team of around 20 writers

00:43:28 ◼   ► rather than AI generated.

00:43:29 ◼   ► I don't believe that this is the full picture to this story

00:43:33 ◼   ► because that makes it sound like every time you ask Siri

00:43:36 ◼   ► for something, there is a response

00:43:38 ◼   ► that's written by one of 20 people

00:43:40 ◼   ► and I don't think that's accurate.

00:43:43 ◼   ► I feel like that that is for specific things

00:43:46 ◼   ► where they've decided they want

00:43:47 ◼   ► a specifically pre-written response.

00:43:51 ◼   ► - Yeah, they are looking at the most commonly asked things

00:43:54 ◼   ► and they have pre-written responses

00:43:56 ◼   ► or sets of styles of response for those.

00:43:59 ◼   ► Still, oh, to be on the Siri writing team, right?

00:44:01 ◼   ► What do you do?

00:44:02 ◼   ► I write for Siri. - No, sorry.

00:44:02 ◼   ► - It's like being on the late night.

00:44:03 ◼   ► No, I think it would be terrible,

00:44:05 ◼   ► but it'd be interesting. (laughing)

00:44:07 ◼   ► Like a late night talk show host,

00:44:08 ◼   ► kind of writer, talk show writer, except it's for Siri.

00:44:12 ◼   ► So like this is the challenges.

00:44:16 ◼   ► Is there a release that Apple could do

00:44:19 ◼   ► that would be up to its standards

00:44:21 ◼   ► that would also use this technology?

00:44:22 ◼   ► Or is this technology not really good enough yet?

00:44:25 ◼   ► And we talk a lot about the VR headset

00:44:28 ◼   ► about how you need to get it out there

00:44:30 ◼   ► and you need to expose it to the world.

00:44:32 ◼   ► And I could make that argument

00:44:34 ◼   ► that the right thing for them to do

00:44:35 ◼   ► is probably at some point to release a,

00:44:38 ◼   ► let people opt into a beta of Siri 2

00:44:41 ◼   ► that has the AI stuff in it,

00:44:45 ◼   ► but is also has a lot of like, it's a beta,

00:44:48 ◼   ► press this button if it says something weird.

00:44:51 ◼   ► And even at that point, can Apple get there?

00:44:55 ◼   ► Or is it just, is this technology?

00:44:57 ◼   ► 'Cause again, what are we rushing to

00:44:59 ◼   ► is the other thing I would say.

00:45:00 ◼   ► It's like, there are a lot of benefits to this AI stuff.

00:45:03 ◼   ► There's a report in here about like the,

00:45:07 ◼   ► putting the kibosh on conversational Siri.

00:45:10 ◼   ► They're like, no, no, no, no, no, that's too weird.

00:45:12 ◼   ► We're not gonna do that.

00:45:13 ◼   ► Well, no, that's one of the weakest points of Siri

00:45:15 ◼   ► is that there's no way to do conversations.

00:45:18 ◼   ► But like, this is what I'm struggling with is,

00:45:20 ◼   ► Apple, is there something here?

00:45:25 ◼   ► And I think there probably is.

00:45:26 ◼   ► I mean, there's definitely a chance that this AI stuff

00:45:29 ◼   ► ends up being way less useful than people think it is now

00:45:35 ◼   ► and that Apple will be proven right.

00:45:37 ◼   ► But I think it's more likely that there is a,

00:45:40 ◼   ► this is gonna all shake out

00:45:41 ◼   ► and it's gonna get good really fast

00:45:44 ◼   ► and good and accurate and not weird.

00:45:47 ◼   ► 'Cause that's all part of the challenge here.

00:45:48 ◼   ► And like, does Apple lose out by waiting for that moment?

00:45:53 ◼   ► Because like, I don't know,

00:45:57 ◼   ► we're just about to enter the era.

00:45:58 ◼   ► In fact, I just got it today for Google

00:46:00 ◼   ► where Google said, congratulations,

00:46:02 ◼   ► you can be in the beta to use the AI powered Google apps.

00:46:07 ◼   ► - Oh.

00:46:08 ◼   ► - And Microsoft is doing the same thing.

00:46:11 ◼   ► Like we're getting very close to the point

00:46:12 ◼   ► where this stuff is gonna be

00:46:13 ◼   ► much more aggressively productized.

00:46:15 ◼   ► And I think that the clock starts to tick

00:46:17 ◼   ► a little bit more for Apple then.

00:46:18 ◼   ► But I also like, again,

00:46:20 ◼   ► would I want Siri to be powered by the stuff

00:46:25 ◼   ► that I've seen so far?

00:46:26 ◼   ► And the answer is probably not, right?

00:46:28 ◼   ► Because you don't want to have those embarrassing mistakes

00:46:33 ◼   ► where it confabulates things.

00:46:35 ◼   ► And like, you want something where Siri is hooked up

00:46:38 ◼   ► to data sources and knows things that are accurate,

00:46:40 ◼   ► but can also actually have a conversation

00:46:42 ◼   ► and understand the context.

00:46:43 ◼   ► And I don't know, it's a real predicament they're in.

00:46:47 ◼   ► And this story makes me less optimistic about it.

00:46:51 ◼   ► And yet at the same time,

00:46:52 ◼   ► I don't want to give too much credit to the idea

00:46:55 ◼   ► that Apple executives are fuddy duddies

00:46:57 ◼   ► who don't want to release a product

00:46:59 ◼   ► that will make things up, right?

00:47:01 ◼   ► Like there is, and I can guess if you're an engineer on it,

00:47:05 ◼   ► you're like, no, I want to try things in public

00:47:06 ◼   ► like the other cool kids.

00:47:07 ◼   ► It's like, I get it, but maybe the adult supervision

00:47:11 ◼   ► needs to step in and say, no,

00:47:13 ◼   ► we're not going to release a chat bot that lies about facts.

00:47:17 ◼   ► We can't do it.

00:47:20 ◼   ► We can't do it.

00:47:20 ◼   ► - In 2019, a team of engineers created a new version

00:47:24 ◼   ► of Siri code named Blackbird that was more lightweight

00:47:28 ◼   ► and offered the ability for developers

00:47:29 ◼   ► to offer up information to Siri.

00:47:32 ◼   ► However, Apple went of another effort called Siri 10,

00:47:35 ◼   ► Siri X 10, it was the 10th anniversary.

00:47:38 ◼   ► - Whatever.

00:47:39 ◼   ► - That aimed to move the processing to on-device

00:47:41 ◼   ► for privacy reasons.

00:47:43 ◼   ► This removed the modular approach.

00:47:44 ◼   ► This is what Apple ended up choosing of the two options.

00:47:48 ◼   ► And that's what we have now, right?

00:47:49 ◼   ► Where Siri is more and more and more on-device.

00:47:52 ◼   ► My question for this is like, why not do both?

00:47:55 ◼   ► Like, I don't know why they haven't done both.

00:47:56 ◼   ► Like, I like the idea of developers being able

00:47:59 ◼   ► to plug in information into Siri.

00:48:02 ◼   ► - You have to go off device at some point, right?

00:48:03 ◼   ► And I think the model that I keep being intrigued by

00:48:07 ◼   ► is what ChatGPT now has plugin support.

00:48:11 ◼   ► And basically what you're doing is,

00:48:13 ◼   ► a lot of these demos that people have seen is,

00:48:15 ◼   ► it's people asking questions of the large language model.

00:48:18 ◼   ► The problem is the large language model is a training model

00:48:20 ◼   ► that was run at some point in the,

00:48:22 ◼   ► so you can't ask it really about current events

00:48:24 ◼   ► or anything like that,

00:48:25 ◼   ► because it's sort of putting it

00:48:27 ◼   ► based on its document training.

00:48:29 ◼   ► But with the ChatGPT plugins, what you end up with is,

00:48:33 ◼   ► that Chatbot large language model

00:48:35 ◼   ► that also has access to internet data sources.

00:48:40 ◼   ► And that, I think,

00:48:43 ◼   ► from the moment I read about it for the first time,

00:48:45 ◼   ► I thought, well, that is the path forward for Siri,

00:48:47 ◼   ► certainly, and for any of these intelligent assistants,

00:48:50 ◼   ► is you wanna use the large language model,

00:48:51 ◼   ► not for facts, but for understanding.

00:48:55 ◼   ► And I know they don't really understand you,

00:48:57 ◼   ► but you know, they sorta do.

00:48:59 ◼   ► They can understand from the context what it is,

00:49:02 ◼   ► and then they can go get, using their plugins,

00:49:05 ◼   ► using their data sources, the right answer,

00:49:07 ◼   ► and then they can phrase that right answer

00:49:09 ◼   ► in a way that is natural.

00:49:11 ◼   ► And like, that is what Siri should be, right?

00:49:16 ◼   ► But it needs to be using reliable data sources,

00:49:20 ◼   ► so that if you ask it a question, right,

00:49:22 ◼   ► like, 'cause there's, why do we use Siri, right?

00:49:24 ◼   ► We use it to do controls.

00:49:26 ◼   ► We use it to do basic stuff like play this song

00:49:29 ◼   ► and all of that.

00:49:30 ◼   ► I would argue that, yes, that is a place

00:49:32 ◼   ► where Siri is frustratingly unreliable

00:49:34 ◼   ► and needs to be better.

00:49:35 ◼   ► Like, it absolutely does.

00:49:37 ◼   ► And when I see the behavior of like the Google assistant

00:49:41 ◼   ► that I have in my kitchen now,

00:49:42 ◼   ► it's remarkable how good it is,

00:49:46 ◼   ► and Siri is not that good.

00:49:48 ◼   ► It needs to be better.

00:49:50 ◼   ► But like, that some of it is sort of pre-baked in stuff.

00:49:52 ◼   ► And then there's the more complicated stuff

00:49:54 ◼   ► where you're basically asking Siri

00:49:55 ◼   ► for questions about the world.

00:49:57 ◼   ► And that's the stuff where the AI chatbots

00:50:00 ◼   ► can shine, but it needs to be real, right?

00:50:02 ◼   ► Which is why you need that second layer.

00:50:04 ◼   ► And I hope that's the way that Apple

00:50:06 ◼   ► is building next-gen Siri,

00:50:09 ◼   ► is you can have a conversational AI model

00:50:13 ◼   ► that runs on the device even.

00:50:15 ◼   ► And then you give it access to the internet

00:50:18 ◼   ► or for data from other apps, right?

00:50:21 ◼   ► That seems natural.

00:50:23 ◼   ► And it uses those to get the information

00:50:27 ◼   ► and then bring it back to you in a form that you expect.

00:50:29 ◼   ► Like that makes sense to me.

00:50:31 ◼   ► - The headset team has wanted to make

00:50:34 ◼   ► their own voice control method

00:50:36 ◼   ► because they felt Siri was not good enough.

00:50:38 ◼   ► This was overridden, obviously.

00:50:40 ◼   ► Can you imagine?

00:50:43 ◼   ► - I think that that's really like,

00:50:45 ◼   ► and that's funny.

00:50:48 ◼   ► - Yeah.

00:50:49 ◼   ► - I totally get it, right?

00:50:50 ◼   ► Where it's like, oh God, Siri, I don't wanna use that.

00:50:53 ◼   ► Can we just keep it simple?

00:50:53 ◼   ► Can we just build our own thing?

00:50:56 ◼   ► And I can see why that might be.

00:50:59 ◼   ► On the one hand, I can see how some project like that,

00:51:02 ◼   ► they probably were thinking, well, yeah, we do this.

00:51:04 ◼   ► And then we take over Siri, right?

00:51:06 ◼   ► We do this and we show that we're better at it than they are

00:51:08 ◼   ► and we take it over.

00:51:09 ◼   ► And at some point they're like, folks,

00:51:11 ◼   ► you gotta build a headset.

00:51:12 ◼   ► You're not here to build a voice control system.

00:51:16 ◼   ► But it's telling, right?

00:51:17 ◼   ► It's gotta be, right?

00:51:19 ◼   ► They've got, everybody's gotta know, right?

00:51:20 ◼   ► Everybody's gotta know that it's not good enough.

00:51:25 ◼   ► And the, yes, the most troubling thing in this report

00:51:29 ◼   ► is the feeling that everybody at Apple

00:51:30 ◼   ► knows it's not good enough.

00:51:32 ◼   ► And yet, as far as we can tell,

00:51:35 ◼   ► they have really struggled to make it better.

00:51:39 ◼   ► And this contains some details that we've heard before

00:51:41 ◼   ► about the idea that the current Siri takes months to,

00:51:44 ◼   ► or weeks to build like modifications to the model,

00:51:47 ◼   ► 'cause it's this old tech that has been built up over time.

00:51:51 ◼   ► But yeah, that's the most dispiriting thing to me is,

00:51:54 ◼   ► there's no smoking gun in here that says,

00:51:57 ◼   ► ah, but they are working on the future of Siri.

00:52:01 ◼   ► And the report is much more like, no, it's a mess.

00:52:04 ◼   ► - This episode is brought to you

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00:54:14 ◼   ► and Relay FM.

00:54:15 ◼   ► We've been talking over the last couple of weeks

00:54:19 ◼   ► about what watchOS 10 could look like

00:54:23 ◼   ► after Mark Gurman reported that there was going to be

00:54:26 ◼   ► some big UI changes to watchOS 10.

00:54:30 ◼   ► In his Power On newsletter over the weekend,

00:54:31 ◼   ► Mark shared a little bit more about this.

00:54:34 ◼   ► This version of watchOS will focus on widgets

00:54:37 ◼   ► and quote, "Fundamental changes to how the device will work."

00:54:41 ◼   ► So when we were talking about this,

00:54:42 ◼   ► we were talking about glances,

00:54:44 ◼   ► we were talking about widgets,

00:54:45 ◼   ► you know, the glances back from the original days of watchOS,

00:54:48 ◼   ► you know, these things you'd swipe up

00:54:49 ◼   ► and would see these little pieces of information

00:54:52 ◼   ► and how we thought,

00:54:52 ◼   ► "Oh, maybe widgets could be kind of like that."

00:54:55 ◼   ► And this seems like exactly what they're going to be doing

00:54:57 ◼   ► with widgets becoming a central part

00:54:59 ◼   ► of the interface for watchOS.

00:55:01 ◼   ► Quote from Mark's piece,

00:55:02 ◼   ► "The plan is to let users scroll through a series

00:55:05 ◼   ► of different widgets for activity tracking,

00:55:07 ◼   ► whether stock tickers, calendar appointments, or more,

00:55:09 ◼   ► rather than having them launch apps.

00:55:13 ◼   ► The new interface will be reminiscent

00:55:15 ◼   ► of the Siri watch face introduced in watchOS 4,

00:55:18 ◼   ► but it will be available as an overlay for any watch face.

00:55:21 ◼   ► It's also similar to widget stacks in iOS and iPadOS

00:55:25 ◼   ► that lets users pile many widgets in one

00:55:28 ◼   ► and scroll through them.

00:55:30 ◼   ► Apple is testing the idea that a press of the digital crown

00:55:34 ◼   ► may show these widgets now,

00:55:36 ◼   ► instead of showing the app's home screen."

00:55:39 ◼   ► What do you think of this?

00:55:41 ◼   ► - I am excited about the idea

00:55:44 ◼   ► that Apple is going to do a real kind of refresh,

00:55:48 ◼   ► rethink of watchOS, 'cause it's really been a while.

00:55:51 ◼   ► And I love this idea.

00:55:54 ◼   ► I mean, I like widgets.

00:55:56 ◼   ► I think the idea of getting information up on the top level

00:56:00 ◼   ► and not being, not using apps,

00:56:03 ◼   ► unless you're doing some very specific kind of interactions

00:56:06 ◼   ► is all good.

00:56:07 ◼   ► I'm, why do they keep mentioning stock tickers?

00:56:11 ◼   ► I don't know.

00:56:13 ◼   ► - 'Cause it's one of the ones Apple's building, right?

00:56:15 ◼   ► Like they're always working on stocks.

00:56:17 ◼   ► - They're always stocks.

00:56:18 ◼   ► They gotta, 'cause people at Apple have stock options.

00:56:21 ◼   ► Even Tim Cook, he wants his stocks on his Apple watch.

00:56:24 ◼   ► I don't love that, but I love this idea

00:56:27 ◼   ► that more glanceable information, right?

00:56:29 ◼   ► Like that's great.

00:56:31 ◼   ► The complications are great, but they are limited.

00:56:36 ◼   ► And so if they find another way to get things out

00:56:39 ◼   ► basically on or overlaid on the watch face,

00:56:43 ◼   ► I'm all for it.

00:56:45 ◼   ► Like I have that too, where like I have occasionally

00:56:47 ◼   ► this information that I wanna have

00:56:49 ◼   ► like in a large widget on modular.

00:56:51 ◼   ► And I don't wanna create like 10 different modulars

00:56:56 ◼   ► with a different thing in the center.

00:56:57 ◼   ► One for weather, one for baseball scores or whatever.

00:57:00 ◼   ► Like it would be awfully nice

00:57:02 ◼   ► if I had a little more flexibility there.

00:57:03 ◼   ► So I'm not knowing a lot of details here.

00:57:06 ◼   ► I'm actually kind of excited about this

00:57:09 ◼   ► because while I do use watch apps and I find value in them,

00:57:14 ◼   ► the whole goal should be to get as much as you can

00:57:18 ◼   ► out onto the watch face because that's where people live.

00:57:22 ◼   ► - Do you remember there was a rumor

00:57:24 ◼   ► that widgets might get some basic interactivity,

00:57:27 ◼   ► button presses and stuff like that?

00:57:31 ◼   ► Now, if this could maybe be tied into that,

00:57:33 ◼   ► that like if you were gonna mostly replace

00:57:36 ◼   ► the user interface of watch apps with these widgets,

00:57:40 ◼   ► that being able to press the occasional button

00:57:42 ◼   ► might be a helpful thing to have

00:57:44 ◼   ► in the overall widget spec, right?

00:57:46 ◼   ► If this kind of was gonna find its way to the watch.

00:57:49 ◼   ► So maybe they would just do it for everything.

00:57:53 ◼   ► But yeah, I'm into this idea in general too.

00:57:56 ◼   ► I think that for me, all of the watch apps that I use,

00:58:01 ◼   ► like realistically watch apps that I use,

00:58:05 ◼   ► a widget would suffice by and large for what I want to do.

00:58:10 ◼   ► Outside of responding to a message,

00:58:14 ◼   ► so using a little keyboard,

00:58:16 ◼   ► the majority of stuff that I'm doing,

00:58:18 ◼   ► I'm looking at my watch to check a thing

00:58:20 ◼   ► as opposed to looking at my watch to be like,

00:58:24 ◼   ► let's get something done.

00:58:25 ◼   ► The occasional press of a complete button

00:58:29 ◼   ► or something like that is good,

00:58:31 ◼   ► but by and large, widgets would be great.

00:58:36 ◼   ► - Yeah, I use, what watch apps do I use?

00:58:39 ◼   ► I mean, I use it to kick off an activity.

00:58:42 ◼   ► I use it to pick a podcast or start a podcast in Overcast.

00:58:46 ◼   ► Like there are a few things where I very specifically do it,

00:58:49 ◼   ► but most of what I've got is data on the watch face

00:58:53 ◼   ► or it's data, right?

00:58:54 ◼   ► Like, it's weather or it's a sports score

00:58:59 ◼   ► or it's, I don't know, stuff like that.

00:59:03 ◼   ► The activity rings and things like that,

00:59:05 ◼   ► that you could just, you could get it as a glance

00:59:07 ◼   ► or get by pushing the digital crown or something like that

00:59:10 ◼   ► and seeing this stuff.

00:59:11 ◼   ► I think there's more to be done there.

00:59:13 ◼   ► And yes, if they could add interactivity all the better,

00:59:16 ◼   ► 'cause that even, that reduces it even further, right?

00:59:19 ◼   ► - And also like I imagine for developers,

00:59:21 ◼   ► I'm gonna talk a little bit more

00:59:21 ◼   ► about developers in a minute,

00:59:22 ◼   ► but this is instead of having to build a watch app,

00:59:26 ◼   ► which I'm sure will still exist, right?

00:59:27 ◼   ► There will still be watch apps.

00:59:28 ◼   ► Instead of having to build a watch app,

00:59:30 ◼   ► you can be on the Apple Watch with your widget, right?

00:59:35 ◼   ► So like you can still be on that platform

00:59:37 ◼   ► and give the information without having to go

00:59:40 ◼   ► through the entire thing of building and maintaining

00:59:43 ◼   ► and updating a watch app.

00:59:45 ◼   ► But you can still be with the customer on their watch

00:59:48 ◼   ► by enabling your widget instead,

00:59:51 ◼   ► or a version of your widget,

00:59:52 ◼   ► which might be easier to manage

00:59:54 ◼   ► 'cause they're all in SwiftUI, right?

00:59:56 ◼   ► So the watch understands SwiftUI.

00:59:58 ◼   ► So like I can imagine that being a better experience overall.

01:00:02 ◼   ► Our friend underscore, the WidgetSmith,

01:00:06 ◼   ► pointed out to us in Slack that this could make sense

01:00:09 ◼   ► as to why in watchOS 9,

01:00:12 ◼   ► Apple migrated complications to the widget kit frameworks

01:00:16 ◼   ► away from the what was called clock kit framework

01:00:19 ◼   ► for complications, I should say.

01:00:21 ◼   ► So they moved complications from clock kit to widget kit

01:00:26 ◼   ► and was wondering if,

01:00:27 ◼   ► oh, I wonder if this might've been one of the reasons

01:00:29 ◼   ► they did that was to start that migration over

01:00:32 ◼   ► before widgets became central to the platform.

01:00:36 ◼   ► - Yeah, I think this is Apple playing the longer game,

01:00:41 ◼   ► right, 'cause Apple hates to use one technology

01:00:46 ◼   ► for one thing, right?

01:00:48 ◼   ► They're all about reuse these days, right?

01:00:50 ◼   ► You can't run all of these different platforms

01:00:52 ◼   ► without reuse.

01:00:53 ◼   ► So the idea that you could take the work you did on widgets

01:00:57 ◼   ► on iPhone and have it be on the Apple Watch, that's great.

01:01:01 ◼   ► I love it, right?

01:01:02 ◼   ► I love that idea.

01:01:04 ◼   ► So, you know, bring it on, I say.

01:01:08 ◼   ► I think there's some questions about,

01:01:09 ◼   ► as somebody who has a cellular Apple Watch,

01:01:11 ◼   ► I had that question about like,

01:01:13 ◼   ► can the widget run on device without talking back

01:01:17 ◼   ► to the iPhone?

01:01:18 ◼   ► Because I'm not always with my iPhone.

01:01:20 ◼   ► I would like it to be independent.

01:01:21 ◼   ► But I also like the idea of them not having to build

01:01:23 ◼   ► a whole Apple Watch app in order to get their widget running.

01:01:27 ◼   ► - I would imagine to do that,

01:01:29 ◼   ► you just got to load the SIFT UI code or the widget

01:01:32 ◼   ► onto the watch, right?

01:01:33 ◼   ► Which the phone could pass off.

01:01:35 ◼   ► And they wouldn't need to be necessarily connected

01:01:39 ◼   ► to do that.

01:01:40 ◼   ► - I am not a developer.

01:01:42 ◼   ► - Neither am I, but I'm just saying things.

01:01:44 ◼   ► - Yeah, and generally, I just believe that having as much

01:01:48 ◼   ► stuff out on the face or very,

01:01:51 ◼   ► 'cause I'm unclear about whether this is sort of like

01:01:54 ◼   ► complication you scroll through

01:01:56 ◼   ► or whether it's a widget view that you swipe to display

01:01:59 ◼   ► instead or exactly what this interface is for widgets.

01:02:03 ◼   ► Or if you push the side button and the widgets come up.

01:02:06 ◼   ► But it needs to be like,

01:02:07 ◼   ► at a high level, very easy to get to and see.

01:02:11 ◼   ► And I like that, right?

01:02:13 ◼   ► Like that feels Apple Watchy to me.

01:02:16 ◼   ► And I don't want them to get rid of Apple Watch apps

01:02:18 ◼   ► because I do find some of them useful.

01:02:20 ◼   ► But yeah, getting more information out there.

01:02:21 ◼   ► I'll also throw out there,

01:02:24 ◼   ► it's still an issue where complications

01:02:27 ◼   ► don't update properly.

01:02:29 ◼   ► I still have it where my weather forecast sometimes

01:02:34 ◼   ► is just not right.

01:02:36 ◼   ► And I have to tap to bring up my app

01:02:39 ◼   ► and then the weather is right.

01:02:40 ◼   ► I'm using Carrot weather.

01:02:43 ◼   ► So I mean, maybe this is a Carrot weather thing,

01:02:46 ◼   ► but like a third party app should be able to be,

01:02:49 ◼   ► the data should actually like be fresh.

01:02:53 ◼   ► And that was part of the promise of the Apple Watch.

01:02:56 ◼   ► And I still feel like a lot of the apps,

01:02:57 ◼   ► it's not quite fresh data.

01:02:59 ◼   ► And I know that they wanna be aggressive

01:03:01 ◼   ► in saving battery and all of that.

01:03:02 ◼   ► But like, you also need to be accurate, right?

01:03:04 ◼   ► It's a little like the Siri argument.

01:03:06 ◼   ► It's like, I appreciate your commitment to battery health.

01:03:11 ◼   ► But if you show me a temperature from yesterday,

01:03:14 ◼   ► you're not doing your job right.

01:03:15 ◼   ► Like you gotta be accurate

01:03:17 ◼   ► with the information you show on my Apple Watch.

01:03:20 ◼   ► So as a part of this,

01:03:21 ◼   ► I would hope that the data update story is also consistent.

01:03:26 ◼   ► - So we spoke about potentially Apple needing

01:03:30 ◼   ► to have their iOS 7 moment, right?

01:03:33 ◼   ► So something you were mentioning on last week's episode.

01:03:35 ◼   ► I think it was last week or two weeks ago.

01:03:37 ◼   ► And what that could end up meaning for the platform.

01:03:43 ◼   ► And one of the things that Marc suggests

01:03:44 ◼   ► is that this could be an option at first.

01:03:47 ◼   ► And this reminded me of stage manager, right?

01:03:49 ◼   ► A stage manager is a thing you need to enable.

01:03:52 ◼   ► It's like a choice that you make.

01:03:54 ◼   ► And I don't imagine it being exactly like that,

01:03:57 ◼   ► but the idea that like you could opt into the watch

01:04:01 ◼   ► operating in this different way

01:04:03 ◼   ► until maybe a year or two down the line

01:04:06 ◼   ► when they make it the way that watchOS works

01:04:10 ◼   ► and maybe watchOS 11 or watchOS 12.

01:04:13 ◼   ► - Right, I mean, once they're on there, anything can happen.

01:04:16 ◼   ► The idea that you might have a watch face

01:04:18 ◼   ► that like all watch faces have a widget

01:04:20 ◼   ► or everybody knows how this, I don't know.

01:04:23 ◼   ► I feel like people like watch faces on their Apple watch,

01:04:25 ◼   ► but maybe it's even something like your Apple watch can be,

01:04:28 ◼   ► well, like it is now with the modular faces.

01:04:30 ◼   ► Your Apple watch can look like a watch

01:04:31 ◼   ► or it can be a widget gallery, right?

01:04:33 ◼   ► Like, and you choose, you choose what you want it to be.

01:04:36 ◼   ► Maybe it's just got the time and a bunch of widgets.

01:04:37 ◼   ► - Right, but this is what he was saying though,

01:04:40 ◼   ► that like it's not actually replacing the watch faces.

01:04:43 ◼   ► - Right.

01:04:44 ◼   ► - It is, it might look like the Siri watch face,

01:04:49 ◼   ► you know, with that like scrolling list of stuff,

01:04:52 ◼   ► but it will be a mode, you would activate it in some way.

01:04:56 ◼   ► You know, maybe you swipe or you press a button

01:04:58 ◼   ► and it shows you your widgets

01:05:00 ◼   ► because I wouldn't like that now, right?

01:05:01 ◼   ► Like I've come to like different watch faces

01:05:04 ◼   ► I think everybody has in it.

01:05:05 ◼   ► - Right.

01:05:06 ◼   ► - I think that would be the smart way to do it.

01:05:07 ◼   ► Not be like, I think there was a while back in watchOS 4

01:05:10 ◼   ► when I was pushing for make the Siri watch face

01:05:14 ◼   ► watchOS like just make it watchOS, right?

01:05:17 ◼   ► Because back then I think that made more sense,

01:05:19 ◼   ► but we're now so many years removed from that.

01:05:22 ◼   ► There are so many more watch face options.

01:05:25 ◼   ► They are getting better,

01:05:26 ◼   ► even though they're still weird in some ways.

01:05:28 ◼   ► And people have embedded with the types of watch faces

01:05:31 ◼   ► that they like that I think we've passed the point

01:05:33 ◼   ► where they could be like, we don't do watch faces anymore.

01:05:37 ◼   ► They're all computers, you know?

01:05:38 ◼   ► I think they've gone into fashion still a little bit

01:05:41 ◼   ► and so it looks and customization,

01:05:44 ◼   ► but I think the idea of like you press one button

01:05:47 ◼   ► and then all your widgets are there

01:05:48 ◼   ► rather than the app honeycomb or the app list,

01:05:51 ◼   ► that just makes a lot of sense, right?

01:05:52 ◼   ► Or like that recent stock or whatever, you know,

01:05:54 ◼   ► there's two buttons.

01:05:56 ◼   ► Either of those buttons could become the button

01:05:58 ◼   ► to show your widgets.

01:05:59 ◼   ► And then what they used to do could be a double tap

01:06:02 ◼   ► or a long press away or something like that.

01:06:04 ◼   ► - Right, and the Siri watch face is the model here

01:06:07 ◼   ► for the other way you can do this,

01:06:08 ◼   ► which is if you really, really like this,

01:06:09 ◼   ► you add your widgets watch face

01:06:12 ◼   ► and you scroll through all your widgets.

01:06:14 ◼   ► But if you don't wanna do that,

01:06:16 ◼   ► you just have a regular watch face

01:06:17 ◼   ► and then you press a button and the widgets come up.

01:06:20 ◼   ► - Yeah, they could just be the widget watch face.

01:06:22 ◼   ► - You choose, right?

01:06:24 ◼   ► Yeah, the widget watch face.

01:06:25 ◼   ► Don't say that too many times,

01:06:26 ◼   ► but 'cause the Siri watch face, you know,

01:06:29 ◼   ► basically it's got the time, right?

01:06:33 ◼   ► It's got like a complication,

01:06:36 ◼   ► but after that, it's basically just a whole stack

01:06:39 ◼   ► of little cards that you can scroll through.

01:06:41 ◼   ► So imagine those being widgets

01:06:43 ◼   ► and that you can place them there based on the apps

01:06:47 ◼   ► that you've got.

01:06:48 ◼   ► That's really promising, I think.

01:06:50 ◼   ► - So Siri watch face even something you can still add.

01:06:54 ◼   ► - Oh yeah, I just added it so that I could look at it.

01:06:59 ◼   ► Absolutely, and there's two complications you can change

01:07:03 ◼   ► and that's it and the color.

01:07:06 ◼   ► - Oh, the Dow Jones, that's good.

01:07:07 ◼   ► I got that right up there.

01:07:08 ◼   ► - Oh, good stocks.

01:07:10 ◼   ► - Sunset is in two hours.

01:07:12 ◼   ► My resting heart rate is 64 beats per minute.

01:07:15 ◼   ► - Yeah, it's nice.

01:07:17 ◼   ► - The temperature.

01:07:18 ◼   ► - I should take a minute for myself,

01:07:20 ◼   ► according to the Breathe app or whatever.

01:07:22 ◼   ► - It's not asking me to do that.

01:07:24 ◼   ► 17 degrees Celsius,

01:07:27 ◼   ► you have to work out what that is in Fahrenheit.

01:07:29 ◼   ► - I don't know, it's 53 degrees Fahrenheit.

01:07:31 ◼   ► You have to work out what that is in Celsius.

01:07:33 ◼   ► - And I'm recording upgrade right now.

01:07:36 ◼   ► - Oh, good to know.

01:07:38 ◼   ► - That's what I hear.

01:07:39 ◼   ► So anyway, yeah, let's do it, bring it on.

01:07:43 ◼   ► Make the watch more useful.

01:07:44 ◼   ► I love my Apple watch and I use it all the time

01:07:46 ◼   ► and I would like to get more data on it,

01:07:49 ◼   ► but yes, let's do it.

01:07:53 ◼   ► Let's rethink this.

01:07:54 ◼   ► Let's get more stuff up there for people who want it.

01:07:56 ◼   ► And as you pointed out also,

01:07:58 ◼   ► accessible for people who want it,

01:07:59 ◼   ► but I don't use the computer watch face.

01:08:02 ◼   ► I use a more traditional watch face and I like it.

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01:08:09 ◼   ► and you would like more of this show each and every week,

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01:09:19 ◼   ► Let's finish out with some Ask Upgrade questions

01:09:24 ◼   ► for this week's episode.

01:09:26 ◼   ► Ricardo asks, "I'm curious if you know

01:09:29 ◼   ► how Apple makes their keynote

01:09:31 ◼   ► and WWDC keynote presentations.

01:09:34 ◼   ► Are they just very good with the keynote app

01:09:37 ◼   ► or are they using something else?"

01:09:39 ◼   ► - I think they're using,

01:09:40 ◼   ► well, I think they're using keynote.

01:09:43 ◼   ► I think that maybe it is jazzed up a little bit at times

01:09:46 ◼   ► for the official video,

01:09:48 ◼   ► but I mean, it was made to do keynote.

01:09:52 ◼   ► It was made for this.

01:09:55 ◼   ► Certainly all the WWDC presentations that people use

01:09:58 ◼   ► are all in keynote,

01:09:59 ◼   ► but I would imagine that it's either in keynote

01:10:02 ◼   ► or it starts in keynote,

01:10:04 ◼   ► and then maybe gets taken out

01:10:07 ◼   ► for video production reasons later on.

01:10:09 ◼   ► - I remember back in the day

01:10:12 ◼   ► when there used to be things that would appear

01:10:17 ◼   ► in an Apple keynote,

01:10:19 ◼   ► and then those features would later get added to keynote,

01:10:22 ◼   ► like some transitions and animations that they would do.

01:10:26 ◼   ► This isn't a thing that really seems to happen anymore.

01:10:30 ◼   ► I don't really think that the keynotes that Apple makes

01:10:33 ◼   ► have these kinds of transitions anymore.

01:10:35 ◼   ► I think they're kind of a little bit calmer now, right?

01:10:39 ◼   ► And actually a lot of what they're doing is the video

01:10:42 ◼   ► or the stage presentation,

01:10:45 ◼   ► as opposed to text to fall out of the sky

01:10:48 ◼   ► and smoke would go everywhere, right?

01:10:50 ◼   ► They were cool back in the day,

01:10:52 ◼   ► but I think that's maybe not so much now.

01:10:54 ◼   ► - Yeah, they keep it simple.

01:10:55 ◼   ► If you look back at some of those Steve Jobs presentations,

01:10:58 ◼   ► now you're like, "Whew!"

01:11:00 ◼   ► We've gotten so austere with our presentation styles,

01:11:04 ◼   ► but boy, did Steve Jobs love wacky transitions.

01:11:07 ◼   ► He loved them.

01:11:08 ◼   ► And that's why keynote is what it is,

01:11:13 ◼   ► is that Steve Jobs was very exacting with what he wanted

01:11:16 ◼   ► and they built a great tool.

01:11:17 ◼   ► I love keynote.

01:11:18 ◼   ► It's one of my very favorite pieces of Apple software.

01:11:20 ◼   ► I think it's so good as somebody...

01:11:22 ◼   ► I heard from somebody who said,

01:11:23 ◼   ► "PowerPoint's so much better than keynote."

01:11:25 ◼   ► And I'm like, "Okay."

01:11:26 ◼   ► I haven't used PowerPoint in 10 years

01:11:28 ◼   ► because I used to have to do PowerPoints at IDG.

01:11:32 ◼   ► But I'll tell you, every time I used PowerPoint,

01:11:36 ◼   ► I cried because keynote was so much better

01:11:40 ◼   ► and I have never ever...

01:11:41 ◼   ► And I've got Office 365,

01:11:42 ◼   ► really I could use PowerPoint now if I wanted to.

01:11:45 ◼   ► No, I don't.

01:11:47 ◼   ► I don't.

01:11:47 ◼   ► I love keynote.

01:11:48 ◼   ► It's so good.

01:11:50 ◼   ► But yeah, the world has, I think,

01:11:53 ◼   ► moved on for a lot of good reasons.

01:11:55 ◼   ► Not like the business world,

01:11:56 ◼   ► but like the tech presentation world.

01:11:59 ◼   ► Whether you're giving a talk at a tech conference

01:12:02 ◼   ► or Apple, certainly.

01:12:03 ◼   ► It's much more minimalist, right?

01:12:05 ◼   ► Like they use it for specs or a picture or a simple idea

01:12:09 ◼   ► and not, you know, they don't need the, you know,

01:12:12 ◼   ► the text comes down and smashes into some other text

01:12:15 ◼   ► and rattles the screen.

01:12:16 ◼   ► Like we don't need that so much anymore.

01:12:19 ◼   ► - You've got to assume they're still using keynote.

01:12:21 ◼   ► 'Cause this is like these days, it's...

01:12:24 ◼   ► I mean, they're probably...

01:12:25 ◼   ► I don't know if they're necessarily using keynote

01:12:28 ◼   ► to build the graphics.

01:12:29 ◼   ► I'm probably assuming they're not.

01:12:31 ◼   ► But just in like a advancing from slide to slide,

01:12:35 ◼   ► they're probably using keynote for that.

01:12:38 ◼   ► - I don't know.

01:12:38 ◼   ► I mean, I think it comes down

01:12:39 ◼   ► to how they produce their videos.

01:12:40 ◼   ► I would imagine that they start in keynote

01:12:42 ◼   ► even if they do get all buffed and made perfect

01:12:46 ◼   ► by whoever is in charge of those for the video presentation

01:12:50 ◼   ► to get them exactly right and, you know, note perfect

01:12:53 ◼   ► and every detail at the right resolution

01:12:55 ◼   ► and in the right shade for the, you know, screen and yeah.

01:12:59 ◼   ► - Because I'm thinking of like, you know, those screens

01:13:03 ◼   ► that they show all the different features.

01:13:05 ◼   ► Like that visual style.

01:13:08 ◼   ► Like I don't know if keynote can do that.

01:13:10 ◼   ► Like I think that's designed by somebody

01:13:13 ◼   ► and then it's put into keynote.

01:13:14 ◼   ► You know what I mean?

01:13:15 ◼   ► - Vincent in the discord says,

01:13:17 ◼   ► I think it's all Final Cut Pro

01:13:18 ◼   ► because there aren't slides that need to change.

01:13:21 ◼   ► Yeah, I mean, this is...

01:13:22 ◼   ► Again, I would think that they all probably start in keynote

01:13:27 ◼   ► because they need to be somewhere

01:13:30 ◼   ► and they need to build them somewhere.

01:13:32 ◼   ► Whether it's Final Cut Pro or there's a very...

01:13:35 ◼   ► Or it's Photoshop even, right?

01:13:37 ◼   ► Where they're building each slide to exacting detail.

01:13:40 ◼   ► That is a video production question, right?

01:13:43 ◼   ► But I think they probably all still think in keynote

01:13:46 ◼   ► in terms of how it's built.

01:13:47 ◼   ► - I went to a workshop recently at Apple

01:13:50 ◼   ► and they used keynote to do the presentation

01:13:53 ◼   ► and it was like a mini keynote.

01:13:55 ◼   ► Like they're like, they're advancing through their slides

01:13:57 ◼   ► and doing their thing and it was a keynote.

01:13:59 ◼   ► Like I could see it was a keynote.

01:14:01 ◼   ► So they still use it for presentations,

01:14:03 ◼   ► but for these like WWDC videos or whatever,

01:14:07 ◼   ► that's probably nothing on that screen, right?

01:14:11 ◼   ► 'Cause why would they commit

01:14:14 ◼   ► when these videos are shot way in advance?

01:14:16 ◼   ► - Sometimes I'm not convinced

01:14:17 ◼   ► that the screen is actually even there,

01:14:19 ◼   ► but if it is there, there's nothing on it.

01:14:21 ◼   ► - That's a good point as well.

01:14:23 ◼   ► It might not be.

01:14:24 ◼   ► - It's like, well, this is a very large thing

01:14:26 ◼   ► that's been erected in the Steve Jobs Theater atrium.

01:14:29 ◼   ► It's like, is it really there?

01:14:30 ◼   ► I'm not sure it is.

01:14:32 ◼   ► I'm not sure it is.

01:14:33 ◼   ► Right, 'cause you could do that now

01:14:35 ◼   ► and you can do a camera move

01:14:36 ◼   ► and it all looks perfectly legitimate

01:14:37 ◼   ► and it's all added later.

01:14:38 ◼   ► So it's all motion graphics.

01:14:40 ◼   ► Don't believe a thing.

01:14:40 ◼   ► It's all made up, everybody.

01:14:42 ◼   ► - Even the presenters.

01:14:43 ◼   ► - That's what it is.

01:14:44 ◼   ► Yeah, whereas when they were on stage live,

01:14:47 ◼   ► it had to be...

01:14:48 ◼   ► I think when they were on stage live, it was keynote.

01:14:51 ◼   ► I do believe it was.

01:14:53 ◼   ► I could be proven wrong.

01:14:55 ◼   ► We don't have any facts here,

01:14:56 ◼   ► but I'm pretty sure it was keynote.

01:14:57 ◼   ► But now it's just a movie they're making basically,

01:15:00 ◼   ► so it could be anything.

01:15:01 ◼   ► - Jesse says, "Regarding the headset,

01:15:03 ◼   ► do you think that it would support multiple users

01:15:06 ◼   ► like a Mac or an Apple TV,

01:15:08 ◼   ► or just one user like an iPhone or an iPad?"

01:15:11 ◼   ► - Ooh.

01:15:12 ◼   ► - I read this and I was like,

01:15:13 ◼   ► "Oh wow, that is a excellent question

01:15:15 ◼   ► and something I had not at all thought about."

01:15:19 ◼   ► - I think it's gonna be like an Apple TV.

01:15:21 ◼   ► I think it's gonna support multiple users.

01:15:23 ◼   ► And I have just made that up off the top of my head,

01:15:25 ◼   ► but here's why, which is,

01:15:27 ◼   ► this thing's gonna be real expensive

01:15:29 ◼   ► and it's gonna be looking in your eyeballs

01:15:32 ◼   ► to do face ID or IID or whatever you wanna call it.

01:15:36 ◼   ► I feel like it would really make sense if the moment...

01:15:40 ◼   ► 'Cause you know, the Apple TV really wants

01:15:42 ◼   ► to be a multi-user device if you let it,

01:15:45 ◼   ► but you've got to tell it that it's you or it doesn't work.

01:15:49 ◼   ► But otherwise it works pretty well.

01:15:51 ◼   ► You've just got to switch users.

01:15:52 ◼   ► Well, this thing, you put it on, it knows who it is, right?

01:15:55 ◼   ► It looks in your eyes and says,

01:15:56 ◼   ► "Is this my person or is this not my person?"

01:16:00 ◼   ► And if it's my person, you're authenticated

01:16:02 ◼   ► and you have access to everything.

01:16:04 ◼   ► If it's not, what does it do?

01:16:06 ◼   ► Does it put you in some weird guest mode?

01:16:07 ◼   ► Does it make you do something

01:16:09 ◼   ► to put in a password or something?

01:16:11 ◼   ► It would be logical that it behaves kind of like Apple TV

01:16:15 ◼   ► where it's got a bunch of preferences

01:16:18 ◼   ► that it switches based on who it recognizes.

01:16:20 ◼   ► Now, have they had time to do that

01:16:22 ◼   ► for release 1.0 of XROS?

01:16:25 ◼   ► Who knows?

01:16:26 ◼   ► But if I had to guess, this is what I would guess

01:16:29 ◼   ► is that it uses the eye scan to identify who it is

01:16:33 ◼   ► and let you in.

01:16:34 ◼   ► And if you've got another person added

01:16:36 ◼   ► and it recognizes their eyes, it will use their data,

01:16:40 ◼   ► not in a kind of Mac way, but in an Apple TV-like way.

01:16:44 ◼   ► - I really hope that's the case.

01:16:45 ◼   ► I actually think that that would be logical,

01:16:47 ◼   ► but I just don't know.

01:16:52 ◼   ► - I think it makes sense, because you do have to think like,

01:16:55 ◼   ► well, what happens if somebody else puts on the thing

01:16:58 ◼   ► and it's scanning your eyes?

01:16:59 ◼   ► It's like, okay, well now do you have to add

01:17:00 ◼   ► another Apple ID?

01:17:01 ◼   ► Does it say, "Nuh-uh, I can't scan?"

01:17:03 ◼   ► Do you have to scan a second person's eyes,

01:17:06 ◼   ► but use the one Apple ID?

01:17:09 ◼   ► Do you say, "No, it's one,

01:17:10 ◼   ► only one person can ever use this?"

01:17:13 ◼   ► Again, there are ways they could do it

01:17:15 ◼   ► that would be unsatisfying.

01:17:17 ◼   ► And maybe they have had to choose one of those

01:17:20 ◼   ► because they're trying to ship this thing.

01:17:22 ◼   ► But if I had to guess, I think it would be like Apple TV.

01:17:26 ◼   ► It would be that approach, which is you can add a user,

01:17:30 ◼   ► and they can log into their Apple ID,

01:17:32 ◼   ► and now it knows who they are,

01:17:33 ◼   ► and it changes a certain set of preferences based on that.

01:17:38 ◼   ► - Kat asks, "Jason, as a resident expert

01:17:41 ◼   ► for all things Apple Photos, I had a question for you.

01:17:44 ◼   ► In iOS 16 with iCloud shared photo library,

01:17:47 ◼   ► photos I take from my camera can automatically be added

01:17:50 ◼   ► to the shared library, but photos I get from other sources,

01:17:54 ◼   ► screenshots I save, photos I save from messaging apps,

01:17:57 ◼   ► get added to my personal library.

01:17:59 ◼   ► Is there a way to make these photos,

01:18:01 ◼   ► which aren't from the camera, also go to the shared library?

01:18:05 ◼   ► I can't find anything in the settings."

01:18:07 ◼   ► - Nope.

01:18:08 ◼   ► - You have to do it manually?

01:18:10 ◼   ► - Yeah, I mean, if you want to, you could,

01:18:14 ◼   ► I mean, the best thing to do is just every so often

01:18:16 ◼   ► go in and view your personal library and move them over.

01:18:21 ◼   ► But there's no direct hook where you can say,

01:18:25 ◼   ► add this to the shared library.

01:18:27 ◼   ► Maybe that'll be a feature they add.

01:18:29 ◼   ► That would be nice, right?

01:18:30 ◼   ► But my understanding now is that, you know,

01:18:33 ◼   ► they don't want to default to your shared library, right?

01:18:35 ◼   ► For, I think, obvious reasons.

01:18:37 ◼   ► And there's no sort of like setting or question

01:18:40 ◼   ► or automation or anything like that.

01:18:42 ◼   ► To my knowledge, you really have to,

01:18:44 ◼   ► I think, again, for obvious reasons, you have to say,

01:18:47 ◼   ► yes, I do actually want to put these in the shared pool.

01:18:51 ◼   ► Otherwise, who knows what kind of garbage would go in there?

01:18:54 ◼   ► I think the error on the side of just leaving stuff out

01:18:56 ◼   ► and then you have to add it later.

01:18:57 ◼   ► - Yeah, that's for the best.

01:18:59 ◼   ► And Ash asks, "You've mentioned many times previously

01:19:03 ◼   ► that you use a shared Google Doc for your show notes.

01:19:05 ◼   ► Have you considered moving to a pages document

01:19:08 ◼   ► with the collaboration features instead?

01:19:10 ◼   ► If so, what are the reasons you decided to stick

01:19:12 ◼   ► with the Google Doc?"

01:19:13 ◼   ► So we have a challenge on Upgrade Plus, I think,

01:19:18 ◼   ► at some point that we're gonna do,

01:19:20 ◼   ► which would be to try out pages again.

01:19:24 ◼   ► Every time I try pages in the past,

01:19:26 ◼   ► the reliability of real-time updating has not been there.

01:19:31 ◼   ► And that has been very important.

01:19:33 ◼   ► It's very important for me.

01:19:35 ◼   ► Like as Jason is currently trying to distract me

01:19:37 ◼   ► by changing the size of the text

01:19:39 ◼   ► and putting things into our document.

01:19:41 ◼   ► So it can be distracting, but it's also important.

01:19:44 ◼   ► Because like, for example, earlier on,

01:19:45 ◼   ► when we were talking about the watch,

01:19:48 ◼   ► yeah, the Siri section, right?

01:19:52 ◼   ► I was moving things around within that side of that section

01:19:55 ◼   ► and deleting things as me and Jason

01:19:57 ◼   ► were jumping ahead of ourselves and talking about them.

01:20:00 ◼   ► And that stopped us from repeating anything

01:20:02 ◼   ► or reading something and going over it again

01:20:04 ◼   ► when we didn't need to.

01:20:06 ◼   ► Now, if that syncing wasn't being done in real-time

01:20:09 ◼   ► or was being done in chunks,

01:20:11 ◼   ► that would not have been as helpful

01:20:13 ◼   ► for the way that we produce this show.

01:20:15 ◼   ► And like at a certain point,

01:20:16 ◼   ► I've become so used to this as a feature.

01:20:19 ◼   ► It is actually really important to me.

01:20:21 ◼   ► Google Docs though, in general, is feature rich.

01:20:24 ◼   ► It's easy to use and we have inertia in it.

01:20:27 ◼   ► Like I'm always willing to try it.

01:20:28 ◼   ► And every couple of years, I try all of the apps.

01:20:32 ◼   ► See, like, you know, all of the apps that I like

01:20:34 ◼   ► that have collaboration features, how good are they?

01:20:38 ◼   ► And I go through them all

01:20:39 ◼   ► and I always come back to Google Docs.

01:20:42 ◼   ► - It's one of those things where it's not making us sad.

01:20:45 ◼   ► So we're not actively looking for other things.

01:20:47 ◼   ► It does everything we want it to do.

01:20:49 ◼   ► So that's, I mean, that's step one, right?

01:20:52 ◼   ► Is you never, you know, I have not heard a thing

01:20:55 ◼   ► that's like, oh, but you have to use pages

01:20:57 ◼   ► because not only does it do everything that you do,

01:20:59 ◼   ► but it does this thing that you really wanna do, right?

01:21:01 ◼   ► Like that's, what are your motivations

01:21:03 ◼   ► for leaving anything?

01:21:04 ◼   ► One is it's frustrating to you,

01:21:06 ◼   ► or two is something else comes along

01:21:08 ◼   ► with does something that's great that improves your process.

01:21:12 ◼   ► That hasn't happened with Google Docs.

01:21:13 ◼   ► Just hasn't, Google Docs work great.

01:21:16 ◼   ► And I've never gotten something where it's like,

01:21:19 ◼   ► oh, but if you use pages, then you get to do this thing

01:21:22 ◼   ► and it would change your life.

01:21:24 ◼   ► And so it's worth changing all of your habits.

01:21:26 ◼   ► So we will use pages for our show notes

01:21:29 ◼   ► for a forthcoming episode

01:21:31 ◼   ► as part of a upgrade plus challenge

01:21:34 ◼   ► that we are doing from time to time.

01:21:36 ◼   ► That's gonna happen.

01:21:37 ◼   ► And it will probably result in us either saying,

01:21:40 ◼   ► oh, it's just as good, good job, Apple,

01:21:44 ◼   ► and then staying with Google Docs.

01:21:45 ◼   ► Or more likely I would say, us saying,

01:21:48 ◼   ► oh, see, it's really still not there.

01:21:50 ◼   ► And well, I'm looking forward to finding that out

01:21:53 ◼   ► because yes, it is worth checking back in

01:21:55 ◼   ► with this stuff over time.

01:21:56 ◼   ► But like- - It's like,