Upgrade

00:00:00 ◼   ► [Music]

00:00:08 ◼   ► From Relay FM, this is Upgrade episode 452. Today's show is brought to you by ZocDoc,

00:00:16 ◼   ► Electric and Setapp. My name is Mike Hurley and I'm joined by Jason Snow. Hi Jason!

00:00:21 ◼   ► Hi Mike, how are you?

00:00:23 ◼   ► I'm pretty good, I'm pretty good. I have a Snowtalk question for you.

00:00:26 ◼   ► Oh good.

00:00:27 ◼   ► comes from Sims and Sims wants to know, Jason, what is your go-to fast food restaurant and is this different on road trips?

00:00:35 ◼   ► I don't eat a lot of fast food, but my current, there's a small California chain called Starbird that does like chicken tenders and chicken wings and stuff like that

00:00:50 ◼   ► and you know, fried chicken sandwiches.

00:00:53 ◼   ► And there's one exit up the freeway from here.

00:00:56 ◼   ► I've been there a lot lately.

00:01:00 ◼   ► So Starbird may be my favorite right now,

00:01:03 ◼   ► just of the moment.

00:01:05 ◼   ► - This looks nice. - Enjoy it.

00:01:07 ◼   ► It's good, it's really good.

00:01:09 ◼   ► And they've got like, you know, you can order ahead

00:01:11 ◼   ► and or you order like with a touchscreen when you get there

00:01:16 ◼   ► or you can sit outside on a nice day, like, yeah, that's good.

00:01:18 ◼   ► So sometimes we'll get that coming home from curling.

00:01:22 ◼   ► See, dropping the curling references again,

00:01:24 ◼   ► just on the way home, just 'cause we curl over like lunch.

00:01:27 ◼   ► We get over and it's lunchtime, so you gotta,

00:01:30 ◼   ► there is, however, also near the curling place,

00:01:32 ◼   ► an In-N-Out, and since Simms asked about road trips,

00:01:36 ◼   ► In-N-Out is my go-to In-N-Out burger,

00:01:40 ◼   ► which is mostly a Western US phenomenon.

00:01:42 ◼   ► It's my go-to for road trips.

00:01:44 ◼   ► Partially, I mean, I like it a lot.

00:01:48 ◼   ► We actually have one in Mill Valley, not far from my house,

00:01:51 ◼   ► and I almost never go there.

00:01:53 ◼   ► But when we're on a road trip, it's a nice,

00:01:57 ◼   ► it's a fun treat to get a burger from In-N-Out.

00:02:00 ◼   ► It's road trip, indeed,

00:02:02 ◼   ► in the truest sense of the word.

00:02:04 ◼   ► - Did we eat that In-N-Out during the life-giving episode,

00:02:09 ◼   ► where we recorded outside?

00:02:11 ◼   ► - We had In-N-Out for that, right?

00:02:13 ◼   ► - Yeah.

00:02:14 ◼   ► - Yeah, that was from our In-N-Out, of course.

00:02:16 ◼   ► - That was from that In-N-Out?

00:02:17 ◼   ► from the outdoor bird chirping episode of Upgrade last June.

00:02:22 ◼   ► Yes, absolutely.

00:02:23 ◼   ► - Probably my favorite episode of Upgrade ever,

00:02:26 ◼   ► because just what it meant to me in that moment.

00:02:30 ◼   ► - It was like we salvaged a little something

00:02:33 ◼   ► out of your terrible, terrible trip.

00:02:35 ◼   ► And I think we can say this exclusively announcing it here,

00:02:40 ◼   ► if we get a chance to record an episode of Upgrade

00:02:43 ◼   ► at my house again,

00:02:45 ◼   ► we will probably record it outside just because.

00:02:49 ◼   ► - We're gonna do that. - Because we can.

00:02:50 ◼   ► - Yeah, we're gonna do that.

00:02:51 ◼   ► This is the hope.

00:02:53 ◼   ► I'm planning on going out,

00:02:56 ◼   ► and we're planning on staying a little bit longer

00:02:58 ◼   ► in San Francisco afterwards.

00:03:00 ◼   ► So I'll come down to you

00:03:02 ◼   ► and we're gonna record outside again, I think,

00:03:03 ◼   ► 'cause that was just good memories.

00:03:06 ◼   ► Maybe this time we can make "Starbird"

00:03:07 ◼   ► the official lunch of that episode.

00:03:12 ◼   ► - Pretty good, it's pretty tasty.

00:03:14 ◼   ► Just need Apple to put those dates out there.

00:03:17 ◼   ► Come on, come on.

00:03:18 ◼   ► - This is Tim, Mike.

00:03:19 ◼   ► I was very busy last week.

00:03:20 ◼   ► I wasn't able to announce it,

00:03:22 ◼   ► but I'll take it under advisement for the next time.

00:03:24 ◼   ► Tim out.

00:03:25 ◼   ► - Thanks, Tim.

00:03:26 ◼   ► If you would like to send in a Snow Talk question

00:03:28 ◼   ► of your own to help us open an episode of Upgrade,

00:03:31 ◼   ► just go to upgradefeedback.com and submit yours.

00:03:34 ◼   ► I have some follow-up for you, Jason Snow.

00:03:37 ◼   ► We had quite a lot of people write in,

00:03:40 ◼   ► which is not typical for follow-up for the show.

00:03:43 ◼   ► like sometimes we get little bits of Bob's links and stuff,

00:03:45 ◼   ► but I've got a lot of people who had some things to say

00:03:48 ◼   ► about our previous episodes.

00:03:49 ◼   ► So I wanna go through some of those.

00:03:51 ◼   ► The first was Ramon who said,

00:03:53 ◼   ► "Over the years and now recently again,

00:03:56 ◼   ► there's been a lot of discussion

00:03:57 ◼   ► about the iPad as the future of computing."

00:03:59 ◼   ► We spoke a lot about it on last week's episode.

00:04:02 ◼   ► - We did.

00:04:02 ◼   ► - Ramon goes on to say,

00:04:03 ◼   ► "Why is it that the industry

00:04:05 ◼   ► isn't giving Microsoft the recognition

00:04:07 ◼   ► for already introducing the future of computing

00:04:10 ◼   ► with their Surface products?

00:04:12 ◼   ► What makes the iPad different?

00:04:13 ◼   ► - All right, snarky answer is,

00:04:15 ◼   ► why isn't the industry giving Microsoft credit

00:04:17 ◼   ► for Windows Phone?

00:04:18 ◼   ► It was there way ahead of the iPhone.

00:04:20 ◼   ► It's kind of the same though.

00:04:22 ◼   ► I mean, it is kind of the same.

00:04:24 ◼   ► The answer is so for Surface.

00:04:25 ◼   ► 'Cause I also got this comment

00:04:28 ◼   ► in a sort of different direction from somebody

00:04:30 ◼   ► who was talking about our complaints and said something like,

00:04:34 ◼   ► "Have you used a Surface notebook where it's detachable?

00:04:37 ◼   ► "It's not a good experience."

00:04:39 ◼   ► I'm like, okay, my response to that person,

00:04:42 ◼   ► and they took it in stride

00:04:43 ◼   ► and they actually reacted positively was,

00:04:46 ◼   ► the iPad Pro with a magic keyboard on it

00:04:49 ◼   ► seems like a pretty good convertible laptop to me, right?

00:04:54 ◼   ► - Part of the problem with those convertible surfaces

00:04:57 ◼   ► where they're like the Surface Book, which I think,

00:04:59 ◼   ► I don't even think they make anymore, or like that--

00:05:01 ◼   ► - Oh, you're right, it's the Surface Book.

00:05:02 ◼   ► Surface Laptop's just a laptop.

00:05:03 ◼   ► It's like, it's the one that's got the like,

00:05:04 ◼   ► the weird multi-thing hinge, and they're trying to--

00:05:07 ◼   ► - Where you can take it out.

00:05:08 ◼   ► - Yeah, 'cause you gotta put,

00:05:09 ◼   ► you gotta put the, in a detachable tablet,

00:05:12 ◼   ► let's just set the terms here.

00:05:14 ◼   ► You have to, if it's a laptop that's also can be a tablet,

00:05:17 ◼   ► you have to have the processor and battery,

00:05:20 ◼   ► at least some, in the thing, in the screen,

00:05:23 ◼   ► because you toss away the keyboard.

00:05:26 ◼   ► The best way to think of it is the iPad, right?

00:05:28 ◼   ► The iPad has everything it needs to do its thing

00:05:31 ◼   ► in its little slab keyboard, or slab display.

00:05:35 ◼   ► And then if you attach a keyboard to it,

00:05:37 ◼   ► and the physics are tricky,

00:05:38 ◼   ► which is why there's the cantilever thing

00:05:40 ◼   ► and why they've done,

00:05:42 ◼   ► Apple now has done a kickstand on the low end one

00:05:44 ◼   ► and Microsoft has experimented with kickstands.

00:05:47 ◼   ► There's weird physics at work there

00:05:49 ◼   ► in terms of getting the forces to all kind of align.

00:05:51 ◼   ► - But I think one of the things

00:05:52 ◼   ► that has made those products really difficult

00:05:54 ◼   ► and not work very well

00:05:55 ◼   ► is that they were running like Intel processors.

00:05:58 ◼   ► And so they just couldn't be efficient enough.

00:06:00 ◼   ► And I think that's the difference

00:06:02 ◼   ► between what some of the stuff Microsoft's done

00:06:05 ◼   ► and what Apple has done with the iPad

00:06:07 ◼   ► is that it's incredibly powerful in that box.

00:06:10 ◼   ► - I'll take it a little further too.

00:06:12 ◼   ► I do think there are engineering challenges

00:06:14 ◼   ► and like, well, we can't,

00:06:15 ◼   ► like can we put one brain that's low powered

00:06:17 ◼   ► behind the screen and then put another brain and we switch?

00:06:20 ◼   ► And like, there's lots of discussions like that

00:06:21 ◼   ► probably going on.

00:06:22 ◼   ► I'd say the other though,

00:06:23 ◼   ► to get to Ramon's core question,

00:06:26 ◼   ► I think the difference is that Microsoft struggled

00:06:30 ◼   ► to create one version of Windows

00:06:34 ◼   ► that would work in both modes.

00:06:36 ◼   ► And I think Apple has had it easy

00:06:39 ◼   ► by having iPad OS and Mac OS be separate.

00:06:42 ◼   ► And that's because Apple had the iPhone

00:06:45 ◼   ► and it was separate from the Mac.

00:06:47 ◼   ► So Apple, that was an advantage.

00:06:49 ◼   ► Microsoft's great advantage is Windows, right?

00:06:51 ◼   ► That they have Windows.

00:06:53 ◼   ► The disadvantage is they were trying to adapt Windows

00:06:56 ◼   ► for touch, but also recognize that most Windows users

00:07:00 ◼   ► will never use it as a touch tablet, right?

00:07:04 ◼   ► So you don't wanna subvert the Windows experience,

00:07:08 ◼   ► but you wanna have a good touch experience.

00:07:11 ◼   ► And at least in my experiences with these things,

00:07:13 ◼   ► and I do have a Surface,

00:07:15 ◼   ► like my Surface, I find almost unusable as an iPad, right?

00:07:21 ◼   ► Like you can kind of fake it for some very similar stuff,

00:07:25 ◼   ► but basically no.

00:07:26 ◼   ► But if I snap the little magnet keyboard on it, it's a PC.

00:07:30 ◼   ► - Good to go.

00:07:31 ◼   ► - And you can use it as a PC.

00:07:33 ◼   ► So I think that's Microsoft's challenge.

00:07:35 ◼   ► So when we were talking about like,

00:07:37 ◼   ► my idea of like, what if there's an iPad mode

00:07:40 ◼   ► that a touch Mac goes into,

00:07:42 ◼   ► or a Mac mode that an iPad goes into,

00:07:44 ◼   ► like, well, what happens there?

00:07:46 ◼   ► I mean, the beauty of it is that Apple has already built

00:07:49 ◼   ► the iPad interface, that's a touch first interface.

00:07:53 ◼   ► I don't, I agree with the people who argue

00:07:56 ◼   ► that blowing the Mac interface up

00:07:59 ◼   ► to making it like a touch first interface

00:08:01 ◼   ► isn't gonna work.

00:08:03 ◼   ► Again, like with Windows, you can get by probably.

00:08:08 ◼   ► Like I've done that on screen sharing

00:08:10 ◼   ► with a Mac with my iPad.

00:08:12 ◼   ► I can kind of drive the OS.

00:08:14 ◼   ► It's not great, but you can kind of do it.

00:08:16 ◼   ► But like, but the iPad OS interface

00:08:19 ◼   ► is a great touch tablet interface.

00:08:21 ◼   ► And that was why my argument was,

00:08:24 ◼   ► not that it would be easy,

00:08:25 ◼   ► but the smart thing to do might be to consider it

00:08:28 ◼   ► essentially two different modes.

00:08:29 ◼   ► And when you either you snap a keyboard

00:08:32 ◼   ► a trackpad on an iPad and say let's go into Mac mode and it becomes a MacBook Air or you

00:08:39 ◼   ► pull the screen off of a future Mac laptop and it becomes an iPad more or less in that

00:08:47 ◼   ► moment. And again, what does that mean? Is it running iPadOS? Is it just running iPad

00:08:51 ◼   ► apps? I mean, there's a lot of hazy like to be figured out, but as people who listen to

00:08:57 ◼   ► the show regularly will know, I have very little patience for people who seem to simultaneously

00:09:02 ◼   ► think that Apple can do anything but not that one thing that you suggest. I'm not saying

00:09:06 ◼   ► Apple is perfect, but I'm thinking they're very capable of doing a lot of stuff if they

00:09:09 ◼   ► put their mind to it. Nothing should be considered out of bounds and impossible for Apple to

00:09:14 ◼   ► do, especially since it's adapting their own existing products. Anyway, so I think that

00:09:19 ◼   ► Microsoft's challenge was always that, I mean, it's an echo of the Steve Ballmer era challenge

00:09:26 ◼   ► in general, which is Windows, Windows, Windows, Windows. And so like they did that Metro interface

00:09:32 ◼   ► that they unveiled way back when was like a really awesome touch prominent interface.

00:09:38 ◼   ► And I remember I was there when they unveiled it at the D conference and I was like, "Oh

00:09:43 ◼   ► wow, Microsoft is really coming hard for the iPad." And the end result was that they started

00:09:48 ◼   ► walking it back almost immediately. In the demo literally, they were like, "Let's flip

00:09:52 ◼   ► over to Office," which is just in a standard Windows interface. And I'm like, "Oh guys,

00:09:56 ◼   ► what did you do?" And they spent the next few years walking it all the way back because

00:10:01 ◼   ► Windows was too important.

00:10:05 ◼   ► And so that's my take on Surface is that it isn't...

00:10:09 ◼   ► You can give them credit, like you can give Bill Gates credit for saying, "Let's put computers

00:10:13 ◼   ► inside phones," but it's not quite right.

00:10:19 ◼   ► And the iPad had the advantage of coming out of iOS and being just a pure touch interface

00:10:25 ◼   ► that didn't have to serve the Mac OS audience at that point.

00:10:30 ◼   ► - I will say to Ramon's point,

00:10:32 ◼   ► I think it does make sense to,

00:10:35 ◼   ► like if we're gonna have that conversation

00:10:37 ◼   ► we had last week,

00:10:38 ◼   ► I actually do wish I would have mentioned Surface

00:10:40 ◼   ► at some point of like, here is,

00:10:42 ◼   ► how well they're doing it kind of doesn't matter for me.

00:10:46 ◼   ► It's like this is more the type of area

00:10:49 ◼   ► I want Apple to push towards.

00:10:52 ◼   ► - Sure, I did mention PCs that have been experimenting

00:10:56 ◼   ► with different use cases and design styles

00:11:00 ◼   ► for the last decade plus.

00:11:01 ◼   ► So that was my nod, 'cause it's not just Surface, right?

00:11:05 ◼   ► It's not just Surface.

00:11:05 ◼   ► There are a lot of PC companies that make convertibles

00:11:09 ◼   ► in all sorts of super weird ways.

00:11:11 ◼   ► And so Surface is an example of a convertible,

00:11:14 ◼   ► and yeah, it's the platform owner, so it's important,

00:11:18 ◼   ► but we can cite them.

00:11:19 ◼   ► But there are lots of PC makers who've made super weird,

00:11:23 ◼   ► mostly not quite right,

00:11:25 ◼   ► but interesting convertible devices that run Windows.

00:11:30 ◼   ► - On the same topic, the iPad topic,

00:11:33 ◼   ► Mathaus wrote in with something,

00:11:35 ◼   ► a couple of people wrote in with this,

00:11:36 ◼   ► I saw some comments like this and mastered on as well.

00:11:39 ◼   ► It says, "I think you're stuck with the idea

00:11:41 ◼   ► that Pro in iPad Pro means more akin to MacBook Pro.

00:11:46 ◼   ► For many artists, the iPad Pro is a critical tool

00:11:48 ◼   ► for their work.

00:11:50 ◼   ► Other auxiliary features like file management adjust that.

00:11:53 ◼   ► there to enable the artistic workflow of moving with images.

00:11:57 ◼   ► So my initial read on this is like I make the same criticism here

00:12:03 ◼   ► when Apple seems to suggest that the most important pro customers

00:12:08 ◼   ► for the Mac are video producers, right?

00:12:10 ◼   ► Like, oh, here's the MacBook Pro and it does this for video

00:12:13 ◼   ► and this for video and for Final Cut, for video, like it annoys me.

00:12:17 ◼   ► Like similarly, when Apple does a lot of marketing around the iPad Pro

00:12:22 ◼   ► as for artists, for illustrators.

00:12:25 ◼   ► I think tailoring your pro product

00:12:28 ◼   ► to just one customer segment, either in features or marketing,

00:12:32 ◼   ► doesn't really make it a pro product.

00:12:34 ◼   ► It would make it, instead of iPad Pro,

00:12:36 ◼   ► iPad Art or MacBook Video.

00:12:40 ◼   ► Just because there is a type of pro that uses it,

00:12:43 ◼   ► that's fantastic.

00:12:44 ◼   ► But the point that we're making is the same

00:12:47 ◼   ► that we make for the MacBook Pro.

00:12:49 ◼   ► This needs to serve developers

00:12:51 ◼   ► as well as it serves video producers,

00:12:53 ◼   ► as well as it serves writers, artists,

00:12:57 ◼   ► and on and on and on.

00:12:58 ◼   ► - Yeah, it is, I think that part of the challenge is

00:13:02 ◼   ► Apple doesn't want to segment,

00:13:04 ◼   ► and this is what you just said,

00:13:05 ◼   ► doesn't want to segment a product

00:13:07 ◼   ► so that it serves a tiny market, right?

00:13:09 ◼   ► It is meant to be more broad than that.

00:13:11 ◼   ► Also, I disagree with the idea

00:13:14 ◼   ► that we're stuck with the idea that Pro means MacBook Pro,

00:13:16 ◼   ► especially since I kept referring to the iPad Pro

00:13:19 ◼   ► as having the same hardware as the MacBook Air.

00:13:21 ◼   ► By the way, you can do professional work on the MacBook Air.

00:13:23 ◼   ► My point was more, what is Apple spending time on?

00:13:27 ◼   ► 'Cause if Apple wanted to spend time on features for artists

00:13:31 ◼   ► like increase, offering a Mac,

00:13:34 ◼   ► the advantage of the iPad Pro

00:13:36 ◼   ► is that it's got the higher refresh rate

00:13:37 ◼   ► and the nicer screen.

00:13:38 ◼   ► And so it's gonna be nicer for artists than the iPad Air.

00:13:41 ◼   ► But like, I feel like there are a lot of advanced

00:13:43 ◼   ► iPad features that again, are trying to get toward the Mac

00:13:48 ◼   ► but not quite getting there.

00:13:50 ◼   ► And like, are artists really served by stage manager

00:13:53 ◼   ► and external display support?

00:13:55 ◼   ► Like, I feel like if you were arguing for artists,

00:13:57 ◼   ► you could say, what if they made a better iPad Air

00:13:59 ◼   ► that had a nicer screen with a faster refresh rate

00:14:02 ◼   ► for the Apple Pencil and for the screen itself?

00:14:04 ◼   ► And that would be, that is an interesting product.

00:14:07 ◼   ► I would also say, there's a little bit of a taste here of,

00:14:11 ◼   ► but you know, but I like it.

00:14:12 ◼   ► It's like, well, great, that's great.

00:14:14 ◼   ► I'm trying to think of,

00:14:15 ◼   ► I'm not trying to think of me personally

00:14:18 ◼   ► and saying, why don't they make the perfect product for me?

00:14:20 ◼   ► I'm really not.

00:14:21 ◼   ► But I am using my experiences to say,

00:14:23 ◼   ► I'm wondering if their strategy here

00:14:26 ◼   ► has led them to a place that, again,

00:14:29 ◼   ► yes, people use the iPad Pro and like it,

00:14:31 ◼   ► but was this the right progression?

00:14:35 ◼   ► I'm also not saying maybe,

00:14:36 ◼   ► when I say that maybe the iPad Pro was a mistake,

00:14:38 ◼   ► I'm not saying maybe serving artists

00:14:39 ◼   ► with a nice tablet was a mistake.

00:14:41 ◼   ► It's not what I'm saying.

00:14:42 ◼   ► I'm saying I wonder if Apple's original plan was that the iPad was the future of computing

00:14:47 ◼   ► and the iPad Pro as a name was the vehicle for that.

00:14:51 ◼   ► And then very rapidly they realized that the Mac was going to be great and on Apple Silicon

00:14:56 ◼   ► and it was going to go on forever and that the iPad, well what is it now?

00:15:01 ◼   ► And I think the iPad Pro suffers from Apple not really quite knowing what the end point

00:15:06 ◼   ► of the iPad Pro is.

00:15:07 ◼   ► I'm not saying that the iPad, I got a lot of feedback from people who seem to have not

00:15:13 ◼   ► heard us or read, like they read Federico's summary on Mastodon of what we said and didn't

00:15:19 ◼   ► listen to what we said.

00:15:20 ◼   ► That was the issue.

00:15:21 ◼   ► We got like a lot of tweets because Federico, replies, posts, whatever you call them, because

00:15:25 ◼   ► Federico said something.

00:15:26 ◼   ► I don't think there's people even though upgrade existed, so like whatever.

00:15:29 ◼   ► So that's my overall comment is I think we were pretty clear last week about the fact

00:15:34 ◼   ► that we're not saying that the iPad is bad.

00:15:37 ◼   ► I love my iPad, I'll say it again,

00:15:39 ◼   ► I love my iPad Pro and I use it every day

00:15:41 ◼   ► and I do use it to get actual work done.

00:15:43 ◼   ► We're trying to think about the bigger picture here

00:15:45 ◼   ► about sort of like this feeling that the iPad

00:15:49 ◼   ► at the high end, and again,

00:15:51 ◼   ► there's literally in that Mac world column,

00:15:52 ◼   ► 'cause I also got feedback from people

00:15:54 ◼   ► who didn't read the Mac world column,

00:15:55 ◼   ► but were tweeting about it or posting a mastodon about it.

00:15:59 ◼   ► In the Mac world column, I specifically say like,

00:16:02 ◼   ► even if Apple were to try a merger of some kind

00:16:06 ◼   ► where there's a device that is Mac-like

00:16:08 ◼   ► and iPad-like at once,

00:16:10 ◼   ► I don't envision the Mac going away

00:16:13 ◼   ► or the iPad going away.

00:16:15 ◼   ► Like I think Apple's,

00:16:17 ◼   ► I think the core iPad market is not the iPad Pro, right?

00:16:21 ◼   ► It's people using the iPad and the iPad Air.

00:16:23 ◼   ► And that I don't think is gonna change

00:16:27 ◼   ► because that, in fact, my argument is sort of,

00:16:30 ◼   ► if the iPad isn't ever gonna be the future of computing,

00:16:33 ◼   ► maybe Apple should focus more

00:16:35 ◼   ► on making the iPad Air awesome as a just a touch tablet

00:16:40 ◼   ► with, yeah, you can attach a keyboard to it,

00:16:41 ◼   ► but it's not the future of computing.

00:16:42 ◼   ► The stakes are a lot lower rather than continuing

00:16:46 ◼   ► to sort of like build these big software projects

00:16:48 ◼   ► that are making sort of Mac-like features.

00:16:51 ◼   ► Like I love the idea that the iPad drives

00:16:53 ◼   ► the external display now with stage manager,

00:16:55 ◼   ► but like who's using that?

00:16:58 ◼   ► What tiny percentage of the iPad user base

00:17:01 ◼   ► is using that proper external display support

00:17:04 ◼   ► for multiple windows with a keyboard and a mouse.

00:17:06 ◼   ► Not just like attaching it to a projector,

00:17:08 ◼   ► but like the real stage manager thing.

00:17:10 ◼   ► And that's an example.

00:17:11 ◼   ► Or putting more into files, which is not the finder,

00:17:16 ◼   ► but it is something.

00:17:18 ◼   ► Like, is it worth doing more investment in that?

00:17:21 ◼   ► That's sort of my big picture thing.

00:17:23 ◼   ► But yes, I think a lot of people didn't listen.

00:17:26 ◼   ► And I'm not saying that Mathaus is one of them,

00:17:29 ◼   ► but I'm saying we got a lot of feedback that was like,

00:17:31 ◼   ► but what about the iPad?

00:17:32 ◼   ► Why do you hate the iPad?

00:17:33 ◼   ► And it's like, we didn't say any of that.

00:17:34 ◼   ► But I did hear from people who basically said,

00:17:38 ◼   ► "I love the iPad Pro, and I'm glad they have these features,

00:17:40 ◼   ► "but I don't want it to be a Mac."

00:17:42 ◼   ► And it's like, and I appreciate that.

00:17:44 ◼   ► I appreciate that.

00:17:45 ◼   ► Again, I'm not, I don't think I agree,

00:17:49 ◼   ► but I don't strongly disagree.

00:17:51 ◼   ► I think I'm more trying to ponder the lost,

00:17:54 ◼   ► it's almost like the opportunity cost of if you had,

00:17:57 ◼   ► if Apple had known at the moment

00:18:00 ◼   ► that it started work on the iPad Pro,

00:18:04 ◼   ► that the Mac was not gonna be a legacy platform

00:18:07 ◼   ► that faded into obscurity,

00:18:09 ◼   ► but was going to go to Apple Silicon

00:18:11 ◼   ► and was gonna be very popular.

00:18:14 ◼   ► And I have heard more that,

00:18:18 ◼   ► 'cause again, I said last week,

00:18:19 ◼   ► we didn't actually know that, it's just a feeling.

00:18:22 ◼   ► I have heard more hazy, vague suggestions

00:18:26 ◼   ► that that is true, (laughs)

00:18:27 ◼   ► that they really did not think about the Mac

00:18:31 ◼   ► as anything more than a legacy product,

00:18:33 ◼   ► and then there was a shift.

00:18:35 ◼   ► So the opportunity cost of the iPad

00:18:37 ◼   ► being put up as being the future,

00:18:40 ◼   ► and that the iPad Pro being this vehicle

00:18:42 ◼   ► that they would invest a lot of effort in

00:18:44 ◼   ► on the hardware side, but especially on the software side

00:18:46 ◼   ► to sort of make it more Mac-like,

00:18:49 ◼   ► if they had known at that moment

00:18:53 ◼   ► that that wasn't the case,

00:18:55 ◼   ► and that the company was never again going to be

00:19:00 ◼   ► behind that as an idea, right?

00:19:03 ◼   ► That I think they would have made different decisions.

00:19:05 ◼   ► And I think that a lot of the people who have been working

00:19:07 ◼   ► on the iPad the last few years to keep pushing it upward

00:19:10 ◼   ► and upward are doing it for an organization as a whole

00:19:15 ◼   ► that doesn't share that enthusiasm

00:19:19 ◼   ► that the people working on the product do

00:19:21 ◼   ► about this product.

00:19:22 ◼   ► 'Cause I do think there's a disconnect, right?

00:19:24 ◼   ► I think people working on the iPad Pro are really excited

00:19:26 ◼   ► about the features that they're working on for the iPad Pro,

00:19:29 ◼   ► but I feel like culturally,

00:19:30 ◼   ► the company kind of moved on from that

00:19:33 ◼   ► and is really excited, as they should be,

00:19:35 ◼   ► about Macs running Apple Silicon instead.

00:19:38 ◼   ► So I don't know, it's complicated.

00:19:40 ◼   ► And a lot of that nuance vanishes on social media, so be it.

00:19:45 ◼   ► - Couple of other ones.

00:19:46 ◼   ► A follow up before we move on, as comes from Ken,

00:19:49 ◼   ► who says, "Regarding the braided solo loop

00:19:51 ◼   ► stretching out over time,

00:19:53 ◼   ► It does shrink like other fabric.

00:19:55 ◼   ► You can wash it and then while wet it,

00:19:57 ◼   ► dry it for a few minutes with some heat.

00:20:00 ◼   ► Ken says, "I used a hairdryer for five minutes

00:20:02 ◼   ► and that was enough to shrink it down

00:20:03 ◼   ► so it fit more snug again."

00:20:05 ◼   ► - I'm concerned that the elastic is actually stretched,

00:20:08 ◼   ► but I have, and I've tried this before

00:20:10 ◼   ► and didn't seem to have much, but I didn't put,

00:20:14 ◼   ► I didn't put the heat, rapid heat drying step on there

00:20:18 ◼   ► because there's always the fear that you're gonna ruin it.

00:20:20 ◼   ► But at this point, my beloved orange solo loop

00:20:25 ◼   ► is too loose for me.

00:20:27 ◼   ► I actually, and I wore it on my whole trip to New Zealand.

00:20:31 ◼   ► And it was just the whole time I was like,

00:20:33 ◼   ► it's a little too loose now.

00:20:34 ◼   ► And also they do as, I think I was listening to a podcast.

00:20:39 ◼   ► I can't remember, was it connected?

00:20:40 ◼   ► They pick up dirt, light bands pick up dirt.

00:20:44 ◼   ► And so that orange band looks kinda dusky and dim right now.

00:20:49 ◼   ► So it needs a proper wash.

00:20:51 ◼   ► So I think I'm gonna follow Ken's advice

00:20:52 ◼   ► and give it a proper wash.

00:20:54 ◼   ► And then I'm gonna give it a proper heat dry

00:20:56 ◼   ► and see if that will contract the fibers,

00:21:00 ◼   ► the cotton fibers, at least, and pull it together

00:21:05 ◼   ► so that its base is a little bit tighter

00:21:10 ◼   ► so that maybe it'll be not as loose on my wrist.

00:21:13 ◼   ► We'll see.

00:21:14 ◼   ► I'm gonna give it a go because honestly,

00:21:16 ◼   ► at this point, if I ruin it, so be it.

00:21:18 ◼   ► It's not really wearable.

00:21:19 ◼   ► It's at the very extreme edge of being wearable

00:21:21 ◼   ► because it's so loose.

00:21:23 ◼   ► - And also Apple is adding local announcer support

00:21:28 ◼   ► for the next season of Friday Night Baseball.

00:21:32 ◼   ► And it is no longer available for free.

00:21:35 ◼   ► If you wanna watch the Friday Night Baseball games,

00:21:37 ◼   ► you now need an Apple TV+ subscription.

00:21:39 ◼   ► - Right, we knew this was coming.

00:21:40 ◼   ► I'm actually surprised they went through the whole year

00:21:42 ◼   ► for free last year, but now first one's free, I guess, season.

00:21:46 ◼   ► So TV Plus subscribers will get access

00:21:49 ◼   ► to Friday Night Baseball.

00:21:50 ◼   ► And I should mention Friday Night Baseball, again,

00:21:54 ◼   ► it's not gonna be on local TV.

00:21:56 ◼   ► It's a national and international exclusive for Apple,

00:22:00 ◼   ► which means it won't be like the cases where,

00:22:02 ◼   ► oh, one of my local teams games is on ESPN,

00:22:05 ◼   ► but it's also on my local channel.

00:22:06 ◼   ► It's gonna be Apple only just as it was last year.

00:22:09 ◼   ► However, what they're doing, which I think is great,

00:22:13 ◼   ► and it shows that they listen to the fan criticism

00:22:16 ◼   ► of their program is they're going to do the game with their national announcers, it's

00:22:21 ◼   ► people basically, it's MLB network announcers who are going to do the commentary. A lot

00:22:26 ◼   ► of people, that makes them sad because they love the voices of their local team. Apple

00:22:31 ◼   ► is going to provide, as they're doing for home teams on MLS, they're going to provide

00:22:36 ◼   ► for home and away teams, radio audio, so that your home radio broadcast of the baseball

00:22:42 ◼   ► game will be play will be optional instead of the announcers that Apple is

00:22:48 ◼   ► providing. So if I want to watch a Giants game on Friday Night Baseball and I

00:22:52 ◼   ► don't want to hear their announcers I can flip it over and I'm gonna get the

00:22:55 ◼   ► Giants radio broadcast with Apple's beautiful picture. So that's an option. I

00:23:01 ◼   ► love that they added that. The only - there's a weird restriction - Texas

00:23:08 ◼   ► Rangers games, it'll only be home games. I don't know why. I don't know why. It's

00:23:12 ◼   ► It's very weird. And if you're in Canada, because this is US and Canada only, I should

00:23:17 ◼   ► say, but if you're in Canada, you only get the Blue Jays radio audio. The other radio

00:23:24 ◼   ► is not available to you. So if you want to watch a game featuring the Giants and you

00:23:28 ◼   ► listen to the Giants broadcasters and you're in Canada, you're out of luck. And the rest

00:23:31 ◼   ► of the world doesn't get this feature.

00:23:33 ◼   ► Me in the UK, I can't choose to listen to…

00:23:36 ◼   ► You don't get this feature. It seems to be a licensing thing where they have the, they

00:23:40 ◼   ► basically have the ability to, they've licensed this to Apple, maybe Major League Baseball

00:23:45 ◼   ► actually stepped up and said, "We'll give you access to this, but only in the US, and

00:23:48 ◼   ► only the Blue Jays in Canada," and not the Rangers away games, I don't know what that's

00:23:53 ◼   ► about at all, but something happened because they're able to do that, but it's a US only

00:23:57 ◼   ► essentially feature.

00:23:58 ◼   ► But I think for me, the interesting observation part of that is what you just said, because

00:24:03 ◼   ► one of the things we've spoken about is like Apple maybe shies away from sports stuff because

00:24:07 ◼   ► because it gets complicated rights-wise, right?

00:24:09 ◼   ► Like if, like with the MLS stuff

00:24:12 ◼   ► and with the Friday Night Baseball,

00:24:13 ◼   ► it's like they can get it and show it worldwide.

00:24:16 ◼   ► And so we wondered, like, you know,

00:24:17 ◼   ► I saw a rumor that apparently they're going after,

00:24:20 ◼   ► someone's saying they're going after the rights

00:24:22 ◼   ► for the English Premier League.

00:24:24 ◼   ► And- - Yeah, someone said that.

00:24:25 ◼   ► - And I wasn't sure if that would be possible again,

00:24:28 ◼   ► because like they're only gonna get it in certain markets.

00:24:30 ◼   ► But while this isn't that,

00:24:32 ◼   ► this is an example of like Apple's willing to do something

00:24:35 ◼   ► which has very weird restrictions

00:24:37 ◼   ► from a rights perspective.

00:24:39 ◼   ► And so maybe this is them dipping their toe in that water,

00:24:41 ◼   ► which if they wanna keep moving into sports,

00:24:44 ◼   ► they're not gonna keep getting deals

00:24:45 ◼   ► like the Major League Soccer deal.

00:24:48 ◼   ► They are gonna get-- - It's worldwide all rights?

00:24:49 ◼   ► - Yeah, they're gonna get,

00:24:51 ◼   ► 'cause that's really the only one that exists.

00:24:53 ◼   ► (laughs)

00:24:54 ◼   ► - And that's, right, so the rumor about NFL Sunday Ticket,

00:24:56 ◼   ► which ended up going to YouTube TV,

00:24:58 ◼   ► was that Apple wanted to do stuff

00:25:00 ◼   ► and that the NFL was not interested in doing.

00:25:04 ◼   ► here, I can't decide whether this was an expediency thing of like, well, the

00:25:08 ◼   ► rights are complicated, but we can get the U.S. to work for you, like Major League

00:25:11 ◼   ► Baseball would say to Apple, and Apple's like, okay, let's try it. And it might even

00:25:14 ◼   ► be, let's try it, and if there's a lot of uptake, then maybe we'll talk about doing

00:25:17 ◼   ► this worldwide, but like, let's just carve out the rights, let's pay the, write the

00:25:22 ◼   ► check, or make the amendment for the U.S. for this season, and we'll see how it

00:25:25 ◼   ► goes, something like that. There was a, another story this week that I want to

00:25:31 ◼   ► least mentioned in passing, which is related to sports rights, which is that Apple and

00:25:36 ◼   ► Amazon are both rumored to be talking to the Pac-12 conference about their TV package.

00:25:41 ◼   ► They're the last college football conference right now to have an open contract for the

00:25:46 ◼   ► rest of the decade. And so they're talking to ESPN and apparently Fox and Apple and Amazon.

00:25:54 ◼   ► And there's a story there about how Apple and Amazon are negotiating, but I forget what

00:26:00 ◼   ► the actual quote is. It's something like, uh, yeah, here it is. "The discussion about

00:26:06 ◼   ► how each week's Pac-12 football games are drafted by the media partners, typically"

00:26:12 ◼   ► — which is like, who gets what games for a given week, in what time slots — "typically

00:26:16 ◼   ► only takes about an hour with traditional partners like ESPN and Fox. The same conversation

00:26:20 ◼   ► apparently took a week with the streamers, Apple and Amazon. They went back to their

00:26:24 ◼   ► lawyers, returned with questions, went back to the lawyers, returned with questions. You

00:26:28 ◼   ► get the idea. That's a report from JohnKazano.com.

00:26:31 ◼   ► I also, there's a story that we didn't get to

00:26:33 ◼   ► that was originally in our notes here,

00:26:34 ◼   ► which is about Apple doing theatrical releases of movies

00:26:38 ◼   ► and needing a distributor. - No, I got it later on.

00:26:41 ◼   ► So, "Ruma Roundup."

00:26:43 ◼   ► We're gonna get to it in "Ruma Roundup."

00:26:44 ◼   ► - And it's the same story again, so we'll get there.

00:26:47 ◼   ► But like, this is the challenge with Apple and Amazon

00:26:52 ◼   ► is they're like weird, right?

00:26:57 ◼   ► Like, I mean, that's the bottom line

00:26:58 ◼   ► is these entertainment companies are like,

00:27:00 ◼   ► what are you talking about?

00:27:02 ◼   ► But the tech companies have their own take on it.

00:27:05 ◼   ► So I'll save those details for a room around it.

00:27:07 ◼   ► But I pulled up, since we're talking about sports rights,

00:27:09 ◼   ► I'll just mention here,

00:27:10 ◼   ► like this is an ongoing interesting thing

00:27:13 ◼   ► where the leagues, the entertainment partners

00:27:15 ◼   ► are all talking to these tech companies like Apple

00:27:17 ◼   ► and like they don't speak the same language quite.

00:27:21 ◼   ► So in Apple's case here, it is fascinating,

00:27:24 ◼   ► like you said, that this is a US and Canada-ish only feature,

00:27:29 ◼   ► which I'd say is counter to what Apple wants to do,

00:27:33 ◼   ► but obviously they felt,

00:27:34 ◼   ► well, this is our most important market,

00:27:36 ◼   ► let's just do it because they wanna try it out

00:27:41 ◼   ► and it's been a big source of criticism

00:27:43 ◼   ► and now they can blunt that criticism.

00:27:45 ◼   ► I also wonder long-term based on viewering stats,

00:27:48 ◼   ► if they might consider doing other languages

00:27:51 ◼   ► for their broadcast, right?

00:27:52 ◼   ► Like if it's very popular in Japan or in Korea,

00:27:56 ◼   ► would they consider having a Japanese

00:27:59 ◼   ► or Korean broadcast team

00:28:00 ◼   ► or just audio overlay of those games?

00:28:03 ◼   ► I don't know.

00:28:04 ◼   ► I don't know how popular it is

00:28:05 ◼   ► 'cause it's what, Saturday morning baseball there,

00:28:10 ◼   ► but I don't know.

00:28:12 ◼   ► - Just kind of see how things go

00:28:15 ◼   ► as different markets get more popular or not.

00:28:17 ◼   ► - See how the, yeah.

00:28:18 ◼   ► We'll see how it's like with sports in general.

00:28:20 ◼   ► We'll see how the season goes.

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00:30:26 ◼   ► From a round-up time, as was rumored earlier on in today's episode, we'll start with this

00:30:36 ◼   ► one now.

00:30:43 ◼   ► Thomas Buckley and Luke Ashore at Bloomberg are reporting that Apple is planning to spend

00:30:48 ◼   ► a billion dollars a year to produce movies, and they are planning on putting them in theaters.

00:30:55 ◼   ► This includes some of the high profile movies already in production.

00:30:59 ◼   ► They're going to put those into theaters.

00:31:01 ◼   ► They already promised the director…

00:31:04 ◼   ► In some cases, like with the Martin Scorsese movie, they closed the deal by promising to

00:31:08 ◼   ► put them in theaters.

00:31:09 ◼   ► Netflix is like, "We're not going to do it.

00:31:11 ◼   ► We're just not going to do it."

00:31:12 ◼   ► Apple's like, "We'll do it.

00:31:13 ◼   ► If that closes the deal, we'll do it.

00:31:14 ◼   ► We'll figure it out."

00:31:15 ◼   ► That one was with Paramount, and Paramount's going to handle the distribution for that

00:31:20 ◼   ► one, which is good because as Buckley and Shaw point out in their Bloomberg article,

00:31:25 ◼   ► Apple has no idea how to do this, they don't do this.

00:31:28 ◼   ► So one of the reasons that they found this information out

00:31:31 ◼   ► is they are going out to companies, distribution companies,

00:31:35 ◼   ► and being like, "Can you help us do this?"

00:31:38 ◼   ► Because it's complicated to put movies

00:31:40 ◼   ► into thousands of theaters,

00:31:41 ◼   ► which is apparently what they're doing.

00:31:43 ◼   ► A quote says, "The company has pledged to put movies

00:31:45 ◼   ► "in thousands of theaters for at least a month,

00:31:47 ◼   ► "though it hasn't finalized any plans."

00:31:50 ◼   ► So kind of assuming here, Oscars, right?

00:31:53 ◼   ► They got to do it for the Oscars anyway,

00:31:55 ◼   ► so why not do it and make a bit of money?

00:31:58 ◼   ► Apparently as well, the focus here will also

00:32:01 ◼   ► to kind of use this as a marketing tool for TV Plus.

00:32:06 ◼   ► - Yeah, absolutely.

00:32:07 ◼   ► 'Cause you do, so the beauty of it is,

00:32:09 ◼   ► and this is, Lucas Shaw sort of made these points

00:32:11 ◼   ► in his excellent media column at Bloomberg,

00:32:14 ◼   ► is economical because you market the movie in theaters

00:32:19 ◼   ► and then you put it on streaming.

00:32:20 ◼   ► And so awareness is already there.

00:32:21 ◼   ► People have heard about it.

00:32:23 ◼   ► people know about the movie.

00:32:24 ◼   ► I know Julia Alexander and I have talked about this cycle

00:32:27 ◼   ► on downstream a little bit.

00:32:28 ◼   ► The idea that the advantage of going to theaters

00:32:31 ◼   ► isn't just that you may make money in theaters.

00:32:35 ◼   ► It's like another revenue stream

00:32:37 ◼   ► that is not to be sniffed at.

00:32:39 ◼   ► But it is a kind of a unified marketing plan

00:32:42 ◼   ► where you create a lot of awareness

00:32:44 ◼   ► when that thing is going into theaters,

00:32:46 ◼   ► not just to drive people into theaters,

00:32:48 ◼   ► but to also make it so that when it comes on your platform,

00:32:52 ◼   ► They're like, "Oh yeah, I meant to see that movie

00:32:54 ◼   ► or that movie looked interesting."

00:32:56 ◼   ► And that has great value because,

00:32:59 ◼   ► you know this, Mike, right?

00:33:00 ◼   ► Like, there are movies that happen and you're like, what?

00:33:04 ◼   ► That was a movie that happened?

00:33:06 ◼   ► And they're completely under your radar.

00:33:08 ◼   ► If you're not looking at the Netflix app

00:33:10 ◼   ► at the right time on the right day,

00:33:11 ◼   ► that movie has disappeared.

00:33:13 ◼   ► Or you're like, "That movie went to prime?

00:33:15 ◼   ► I have that and I didn't even know that movie was there."

00:33:19 ◼   ► That happens to me all the time now.

00:33:21 ◼   ► there was an Oscar nomination for a movie on Apple TV+

00:33:24 ◼   ► that I had literally never heard of.

00:33:27 ◼   ► It had been sitting on my Apple TV all that time.

00:33:29 ◼   ► I could have watched it,

00:33:30 ◼   ► but I didn't even know it existed.

00:33:31 ◼   ► So one way you can change that

00:33:35 ◼   ► for your Martin Scorsese movie or whatever

00:33:38 ◼   ► is by releasing it in theaters

00:33:40 ◼   ► and doing a marketing campaign for the theatrical release.

00:33:44 ◼   ► So there's lots of like,

00:33:45 ◼   ► it's a good move, not just for theatrical

00:33:49 ◼   ► to do the marketing for the theatrical release.

00:33:52 ◼   ► - And then the thing we talk about a lot,

00:33:54 ◼   ► which is very important, and it is that idea

00:33:57 ◼   ► of who does Apple wanna be, makes the creators feel good.

00:34:01 ◼   ► You made a movie, put it in cinemas, got big posters,

00:34:05 ◼   ► do the whole premiere, the whole nine yards,

00:34:09 ◼   ► and some of that stuff is done just so the people

00:34:11 ◼   ► that made the thing feel good about the thing

00:34:13 ◼   ► that they made, which is very valid, but it helps.

00:34:16 ◼   ► And if Apple want to continue to pull in people

00:34:20 ◼   ► like Martin Scorsese, this is a way to do that.

00:34:24 ◼   ► Like, well, oh no, don't go with such and such.

00:34:26 ◼   ► We're gonna put your movie in theaters.

00:34:28 ◼   ► And no, we're not just gonna do the two weeks

00:34:30 ◼   ► that we need for the Oscars.

00:34:32 ◼   ► We're gonna do it for a whole month, whole month.

00:34:35 ◼   ► - Yeah, six weeks, whatever it is.

00:34:37 ◼   ► Yeah, and they're closing deals.

00:34:40 ◼   ► They've definitely closed deals

00:34:45 ◼   ► because of this at some point.

00:34:47 ◼   ► But there is also a strategy in general that,

00:34:51 ◼   ► and again, we've talked about it a bit on downstream

00:34:53 ◼   ► and we'll be talking about it more over there too,

00:34:55 ◼   ► but like it's this idea that theatrical,

00:34:57 ◼   ► like what Lucas Shaw says is,

00:35:00 ◼   ► "Perhaps the biggest change I'm thinking

00:35:01 ◼   ► over the last six months

00:35:02 ◼   ► is what kind of movies can work theatrical."

00:35:04 ◼   ► Before the pandemic, studios were struggling

00:35:06 ◼   ► to get people to show up for anything but superheroes.

00:35:09 ◼   ► Coming out of the pandemic,

00:35:10 ◼   ► people started to worry about animation,

00:35:12 ◼   ► but the solid performance of films like Elvis,

00:35:16 ◼   ► Cocaine Bear, and The Woman King

00:35:18 ◼   ► has changed people's minds.

00:35:20 ◼   ► There's a feeling like theatrical is gonna,

00:35:23 ◼   ► it's not just for superhero movies,

00:35:25 ◼   ► there are other movies that can do well there.

00:35:27 ◼   ► So that's part of the strategy with this

00:35:29 ◼   ► because the fact is, every dollar you spend on that movie

00:35:33 ◼   ► and marketing that movie,

00:35:34 ◼   ► like you gotta get it back,

00:35:35 ◼   ► not just in the value to your streaming service,

00:35:38 ◼   ► but it's also like, if you can get money on theatrical,

00:35:41 ◼   ► again, you've made that movie more successful

00:35:44 ◼   ► by having it have the theatrical release

00:35:46 ◼   ► where there's box office.

00:35:47 ◼   ► And if you get a hit,

00:35:49 ◼   ► you got really good box office results,

00:35:51 ◼   ► that's good for you.

00:35:54 ◼   ► It is funny,

00:35:55 ◼   ► and now to get me back to what I was saying before

00:35:58 ◼   ► about dealing with streamers is weird.

00:36:00 ◼   ► What Lucas Shaw reported,

00:36:03 ◼   ► I thought this was a really nice way to report it,

00:36:07 ◼   ► which is that the,

00:36:09 ◼   ► Apple is shopping some of its projects on a one-off basis,

00:36:11 ◼   ► but it is looking for one of these studios to distribute,

00:36:15 ◼   ► to step up and be its distribution partner for a slate,

00:36:18 ◼   ► for all of Apple's movies.

00:36:20 ◼   ► It doesn't have any deals yet.

00:36:21 ◼   ► And here's the key line,

00:36:23 ◼   ► executives at some studios have expressed reservations

00:36:26 ◼   ► about Apple's approach, which I feel like, again,

00:36:31 ◼   ► that is tech giants are weird to entertainment giants.

00:36:36 ◼   ► And entertainment giants are weird to tech giants.

00:36:39 ◼   ► Their priorities are so different.

00:36:42 ◼   ► They come from different places.

00:36:43 ◼   ► And as we talked about a lot,

00:36:45 ◼   ► Netflix is Netflix.

00:36:49 ◼   ► They have to make money as Netflix.

00:36:51 ◼   ► That's their business.

00:36:53 ◼   ► Apple, right, like sells iPhones.

00:36:55 ◼   ► And then they also have their entertainment business.

00:36:57 ◼   ► So like Apple's priorities are not the priorities

00:37:01 ◼   ► of most of the partners for the entertainment industry.

00:37:05 ◼   ► And so it's weird, right?

00:37:07 ◼   ► It's weird, but it is interesting that Apple has gone,

00:37:11 ◼   ► they haven't made the deal yet,

00:37:12 ◼   ► but they have shifted gears from one-offs

00:37:16 ◼   ► because we gotta make Martin Scorsese happy

00:37:19 ◼   ► for a theatrical release,

00:37:21 ◼   ► to just saying we're shopping for a distribution partner.

00:37:24 ◼   ► That suggests to me that in the future,

00:37:27 ◼   ► many, if not all, Apple movie releases

00:37:31 ◼   ► will actually get a theatrical opening

00:37:33 ◼   ► before they go on Apple TV+.

00:37:36 ◼   ► - I mean, I wouldn't trust that idea anyway.

00:37:38 ◼   ► It's like when they started TV+,

00:37:41 ◼   ► they were working with production companies

00:37:44 ◼   ► and then they're like,

00:37:45 ◼   ► "Oh, we'll just set up our own production company."

00:37:47 ◼   ► Like, honestly, if they think this is something for them

00:37:50 ◼   ► in the long run,

00:37:51 ◼   ► I could imagine them just hiring some people to do it.

00:37:54 ◼   ► - I don't think Apple wants to get

00:37:55 ◼   ► into theatrical distribution as a business.

00:37:57 ◼   ► This feels to me like the kind of business,

00:37:59 ◼   ► this is like some of its other suppliers

00:38:02 ◼   ► where they're like,

00:38:02 ◼   ► they're just gonna work with Corning.

00:38:04 ◼   ► They're not gonna make their own glass.

00:38:06 ◼   ► They're gonna work with Corning.

00:38:06 ◼   ► This feels like a very specific thing

00:38:10 ◼   ► where there's preexisting deals with theater chains

00:38:13 ◼   ► from these distributors.

00:38:14 ◼   ► And it's like, they don't want this business, I think.

00:38:16 ◼   ► I mean, if they found,

00:38:18 ◼   ► ultimately if they felt like this was core

00:38:19 ◼   ► to their business, I think they would do that.

00:38:21 ◼   ► But this feels like kind of ancillary part

00:38:23 ◼   ► of a larger strategy.

00:38:24 ◼   ► So they'll probably just make a deal at some point,

00:38:28 ◼   ► although it's fascinating that everybody is speaking

00:38:30 ◼   ► a different language now, so it's unclear.

00:38:32 ◼   ► But it will be interesting to see,

00:38:34 ◼   ► this is the real big shift that's happened.

00:38:36 ◼   ► Once that quarter happened where Netflix lost money

00:38:39 ◼   ► and subscribers and everybody panicked

00:38:41 ◼   ► and it became the sort of like the end of the,

00:38:43 ◼   ► just spend as much money as you want for streaming world.

00:38:47 ◼   ► And we ended up in sort of a new act.

00:38:49 ◼   ► This is very much a piece of that, which is,

00:38:53 ◼   ► oh, we're not gonna just do streaming.

00:38:55 ◼   ► We will do theatrical 'cause it brings in some money.

00:38:57 ◼   ► And at this point, a little more money coming in

00:39:00 ◼   ► for all of these projects helps the business make sense.

00:39:04 ◼   ► And although Apple could just keep spending money

00:39:06 ◼   ► and losing money on all of its deals,

00:39:08 ◼   ► I think it's better for Apple

00:39:09 ◼   ► if it loses less money on those deals

00:39:13 ◼   ► by having some theatrical revenue.

00:39:14 ◼   ► So yeah, don't be surprised when you start seeing ads

00:39:19 ◼   ► for movies from Apple in theaters now.

00:39:23 ◼   ► That's gonna be weird, but I think it's gonna happen.

00:39:26 ◼   ► - Shifting gears, but still we're round up.

00:39:28 ◼   ► Mark Gurman of Bloomberg is reporting that Apple demoed their headset to the top 100

00:39:34 ◼   ► highest ranking executives at the Steve Jobs Theatre.

00:39:45 ◼   ► The demonstrations were polished, glitzy and exciting but many executives are clear eyed

00:39:49 ◼   ► about Apple's challenges pushing into this new market.

00:39:53 ◼   ► The device will start at around $3,000, lack a killer app, require an external battery

00:39:59 ◼   ► that will be needed to replace every couple of hours, and use a design that some testers

00:40:03 ◼   ► have deemed uncomfortable is also likely to launch a limited media content.

00:40:08 ◼   ► It could follow a similar trajectory as the Apple Watch.

00:40:11 ◼   ► There will be little to no profit at first, given that the components in the device are

00:40:15 ◼   ► so expensive and Apple won't be seeking its typical margins just yet.

00:40:18 ◼   ► So a few things on this.

00:40:20 ◼   ► There's a lot of stuff we know here, right?

00:40:22 ◼   ► we feel like we've heard before.

00:40:23 ◼   ► - From Mark Gurman and from the Financial Times both, yeah.

00:40:26 ◼   ► - But just seeing it again, kind of stated in this way,

00:40:30 ◼   ► starts to make it feel more like it's truth

00:40:32 ◼   ► rather than, you know, like that it's been heard enough.

00:40:35 ◼   ► But, you know, the key part of this report

00:40:38 ◼   ► is when it gets shown in this way, it's super close.

00:40:42 ◼   ► - They've shown other stuff related to this,

00:40:47 ◼   ► but they haven't done it at this level.

00:40:51 ◼   ► This is the level where it's like, it's gonna ship, right?

00:40:55 ◼   ► This is the level where it's very, very, very close.

00:40:58 ◼   ► Instead of it like being little parts,

00:41:00 ◼   ► it's like literally we're gonna do this.

00:41:01 ◼   ► I did laugh at the detail that this is the top 100

00:41:05 ◼   ► and they usually go to a far off,

00:41:07 ◼   ► they usually go to a fancy place and I think they did.

00:41:09 ◼   ► I think they went to like Carmel or something,

00:41:11 ◼   ► according to Mark Gurman, after this.

00:41:13 ◼   ► I think it's literally, well, we're not gonna demo

00:41:17 ◼   ► our unannounced product off campus.

00:41:19 ◼   ► So everybody pack your bags, hand them off,

00:41:23 ◼   ► we'll load them on the bus,

00:41:25 ◼   ► and then go to the Steve Jobs Theater,

00:41:27 ◼   ► and we're going to show you the thing,

00:41:29 ◼   ► and then get on the bus and we'll go to Carmel.

00:41:31 ◼   ► But like, they're not gonna take the headset

00:41:34 ◼   ► to a resort outside of Apple and show it, right?

00:41:38 ◼   ► Like that's, they're not gonna be that,

00:41:42 ◼   ► I mean, again, not open, but like they're secret enough

00:41:45 ◼   ► that this thing is not part of the event that's the offsite.

00:41:48 ◼   ► It's like before the offsite or after,

00:41:51 ◼   ► because they're not gonna let it leave campus.

00:41:53 ◼   ► I just found that amusing.

00:41:55 ◼   ► While we're talking about,

00:41:56 ◼   ► because Mark Gurman has been reporting about this

00:41:58 ◼   ► a long time, and so this served as a summary

00:42:00 ◼   ► of what the deal is with this.

00:42:01 ◼   ► I wanna mention that Quinn Nelson's,

00:42:04 ◼   ► Snazzy Labs YouTube channel had an excellent summary

00:42:09 ◼   ► of all reports about what's in this product

00:42:11 ◼   ► and what it means.

00:42:12 ◼   ► I thought he did a great job of doing the work

00:42:15 ◼   ► of finding out all, you know,

00:42:16 ◼   ► He basically got all the details of everything

00:42:19 ◼   ► that's ever been reported about this thing,

00:42:22 ◼   ► and then tried to put it together in a way

00:42:24 ◼   ► where it's like, why is this relevant?

00:42:26 ◼   ► With some details about like the optics and stuff,

00:42:29 ◼   ► it's a really good video.

00:42:30 ◼   ► I recommend it highly, really good summary of it.

00:42:34 ◼   ► - We'll call it.

00:42:35 ◼   ► - I think so.

00:42:36 ◼   ► - On the same vein, Trip Mickel and Brian X--

00:42:39 ◼   ► - Oh, here we go.

00:42:40 ◼   ► - Stop it.

00:42:41 ◼   ► Trip Mickel, I knew it, I knew it.

00:42:44 ◼   ► Trip Mickel and Brian X Chen--

00:42:44 ◼   ► - Did Tripp Mickle use his disgruntled Apple design sources

00:42:48 ◼   ► to set up a narrative? - At the New York Times

00:42:50 ◼   ► are reporting that some employees are skeptical

00:42:53 ◼   ► or flat out against Apple releasing the headset.

00:42:56 ◼   ► They have said that it's seen some employees

00:42:59 ◼   ► depart the teams that they've been on

00:43:02 ◼   ► because they're upset about it.

00:43:04 ◼   ► And Tripp Mickle not the only person to report like this.

00:43:07 ◼   ► We've had lots of reports like this.

00:43:08 ◼   ► I think on last week's episode, we had a similar one.

00:43:12 ◼   ► - I think, I mean, I said at the time,

00:43:13 ◼   ► and I'll say it again here, I think Trip Mickel

00:43:16 ◼   ► was a little mad that the Financial Times

00:43:17 ◼   ► got his disgruntled design sources from his book

00:43:22 ◼   ► on the record at the FT before he could get it

00:43:25 ◼   ► in the New York Times.

00:43:26 ◼   ► So here they are, they're here now.

00:43:28 ◼   ► - A few quotes from this New York Times article.

00:43:31 ◼   ► Apple is focused on making Excel for video conferencing

00:43:34 ◼   ► and spending time with others as avatars in a virtual world.

00:43:38 ◼   ► The company has called the device's

00:43:40 ◼   ► signature application co-presence, co-presence, co-presence,

00:43:45 ◼   ► a word designed-- - Copresence.

00:43:47 ◼   ► - Copresence, a word designed to capture the experience

00:43:52 ◼   ► of sharing a real, a virtual space

00:43:55 ◼   ► with someone in another place.

00:43:58 ◼   ► This makes a lot of sense to me as a thing to do.

00:44:00 ◼   ► - This is that, we'll create a virtual person,

00:44:03 ◼   ► but only one, we only have power for one,

00:44:06 ◼   ► and you'll be in the space with them.

00:44:07 ◼   ► - Me and you in a co-present world together.

00:44:10 ◼   ► - Oh man, some are fun.

00:44:11 ◼   ► - Some are fun.

00:44:12 ◼   ► (laughing)

00:44:15 ◼   ► The device will double as a tool for artists, designers

00:44:18 ◼   ► and engineers tracking them as they draw freely in space

00:44:21 ◼   ► in image editing applications and tracking hand gestures

00:44:24 ◼   ► for the editing of virtual reality films.

00:44:27 ◼   ► Lastly, it will function as a high resolution TV

00:44:30 ◼   ► of custom made video content from Hollywood filmmakers

00:44:33 ◼   ► such as Jon Favreau.

00:44:35 ◼   ► - Okay.

00:44:36 ◼   ► to get a name right? Yes, yes a name maybe the uh maybe that was that came up in the top 100 or

00:44:44 ◼   ► something I don't know that is fascinating such as Sean Favreau and others you know.

00:44:48 ◼   ► The headset looks like ski goggles it features a carbon fiber frame, a hip pack with battery

00:44:56 ◼   ► support, outward cameras to capture the real world and two 4k displays that can render everything

00:45:02 ◼   ► from applications to movies. Users can turn a "reality dial" on the device to increase or decrease

00:45:10 ◼   ► real-time video from the world around them. I like the way this is described in this piece.

00:45:16 ◼   ► There's some details here but this to me, the way it's described, sounds like it came from a

00:45:25 ◼   ► "demo," right? More than this person said to me. You know, like, just carbon fiber.

00:45:33 ◼   ► I haven't heard him say carbon fiber before. I haven't read that anywhere.

00:45:35 ◼   ► - I think that might have been somewhere, right? It's a big pool of stuff. I think it might have

00:45:41 ◼   ► been somewhere, but this is... - You know, like, reality dial. Like, the way this is described is

00:45:46 ◼   ► just different. - Right. It's... No, I think you hit on it there, which is, what's described here

00:45:51 ◼   ► feels very much like what has been described by others,

00:45:55 ◼   ► especially Mark Gurman, but other people.

00:45:57 ◼   ► But the way it's described suggests that it's coming

00:46:02 ◼   ► from potentially like, yeah, like you said,

00:46:05 ◼   ► like a demo or something where we're getting closer

00:46:07 ◼   ► to the actual verbiage that will be used by Apple

00:46:11 ◼   ► to demonstrate this to the public,

00:46:12 ◼   ► that they've reached that point where it's not,

00:46:14 ◼   ► I've seen a spec or I saw a test unit

00:46:18 ◼   ► and here's what it kind of looks like to being,

00:46:20 ◼   ► No, no, here's what they said.

00:46:22 ◼   ► They said that we're turning the reality dial

00:46:25 ◼   ► and it's got a carbon fiber frame and a hip pack.

00:46:28 ◼   ► Instead of saying, oh, there's a battery thing

00:46:30 ◼   ► that you stick in a pocket.

00:46:31 ◼   ► Like instead it's like, no, hip pack.

00:46:34 ◼   ► Interesting.

00:46:35 ◼   ► - Quote, "Because the headset won't fit over glasses,

00:46:38 ◼   ► won't warm, the company has plans to sell prescription

00:46:42 ◼   ► lenses for the displays to people who don't wear contacts."

00:46:45 ◼   ► Now, I really wonder about that.

00:46:49 ◼   ► because what does that mean?

00:46:51 ◼   ► Is that like the ski goggle thing?

00:46:52 ◼   ► Is it gonna make a seal over my eyes?

00:46:55 ◼   ► - I don't, I mean, it might

00:46:57 ◼   ► in order to completely isolate you.

00:46:59 ◼   ► So I have the prescription pop-on things

00:47:02 ◼   ► for the MetaQuest 2.

00:47:04 ◼   ► - Yeah.

00:47:05 ◼   ► - And it's great 'cause I don't have to wear my glasses

00:47:08 ◼   ► when I use it and the glasses were kind of weird

00:47:10 ◼   ► and uncomfortable inside the thing.

00:47:13 ◼   ► So I think the question is, like you could do this,

00:47:17 ◼   ► like you could do Apple Watch band sizes, honestly.

00:47:22 ◼   ► Because it's not like you get the complex prescription

00:47:27 ◼   ► from your doctor necessarily.

00:47:29 ◼   ► You can do this as a plus or minus whatever,

00:47:34 ◼   ► fairly simple correction that doesn't require

00:47:36 ◼   ► a full-on glasses prescription.

00:47:38 ◼   ► Then again, I think it was like a hundred bucks

00:47:41 ◼   ► to get those for the Quest 2.

00:47:43 ◼   ► So I don't know exactly how they're gonna approach this,

00:47:47 ◼   ► but it is gonna be a problem for people who wear glasses

00:47:49 ◼   ► if you have to either get a prescription from an eye doctor

00:47:53 ◼   ► or do the, like I bought a pair of swimming goggles, right?

00:47:57 ◼   ► And I didn't use a,

00:47:58 ◼   ► they're not custom prescription goggles.

00:48:00 ◼   ► I just did an, I ordered the ones with a certain adjustment

00:48:04 ◼   ► and it allows me to see if not perfectly like well enough.

00:48:08 ◼   ► And that may be what they do here.

00:48:10 ◼   ► - My only thing for this,

00:48:12 ◼   ► it's just gonna make the purchasing process really annoying.

00:48:15 ◼   ► Like that's how I see it, right?

00:48:17 ◼   ► Like for me, it's just like,

00:48:18 ◼   ► - Potentially.

00:48:19 ◼   ► - Gotta go through this whole song and dance.

00:48:21 ◼   ► - Potentially.

00:48:22 ◼   ► - We'll say, I mean, my prescription is not super strong.

00:48:24 ◼   ► I reckon I could get away with it

00:48:26 ◼   ► and then maybe get some lenses down the line

00:48:28 ◼   ► if it was a problem.

00:48:29 ◼   ► But as you say, there are, depending on your prescription,

00:48:33 ◼   ► that there are things that they can do in software,

00:48:35 ◼   ► like for like making the image look clearer to you.

00:48:40 ◼   ► But we'll see.

00:48:41 ◼   ► - Yeah, I mean, I think this is an interesting report.

00:48:43 ◼   ► There is definitely a lot.

00:48:44 ◼   ► I heard from a couple of friends this morning who are like,

00:48:46 ◼   ► seems like there's a lot of narrative building on here.

00:48:48 ◼   ► I think there is.

00:48:49 ◼   ► I think people are, like I said,

00:48:51 ◼   ► this story has some narrative building in it

00:48:56 ◼   ► that feels very much like the FT story,

00:48:58 ◼   ► Financial Times story last week,

00:48:59 ◼   ► which is from people who worked on it and left,

00:49:02 ◼   ► or from people who've left the company in general,

00:49:05 ◼   ► like the designers who've said,

00:49:06 ◼   ► "Please don't make this product, just wait for the glasses,"

00:49:08 ◼   ► which again, I feel like is an absurd kind of demand.

00:49:13 ◼   ► And so, but like you can't deny it.

00:49:17 ◼   ► Like it seems like some people at Apple

00:49:21 ◼   ► or who were at Apple are looking at this product like,

00:49:24 ◼   ► well, you know, what the heck is this thing?

00:49:26 ◼   ► Why are we shipping it?

00:49:27 ◼   ► And I have two thoughts about that.

00:49:29 ◼   ► One is you're doing it because the higher ups

00:49:33 ◼   ► and I'll refer you to my previous comments about this,

00:49:35 ◼   ► because the higher ups look at this and say,

00:49:38 ◼   ► we need to be in this space

00:49:39 ◼   ► because if anything is gonna replace the iPhone,

00:49:42 ◼   ► it's something that's going to be downwind of this

00:49:44 ◼   ► by 10 or 15 years.

00:49:45 ◼   ► And we got the money, so let's invest now

00:49:48 ◼   ► because it may fail, but if this category succeeds,

00:49:52 ◼   ► we gotta be the ones who succeed at it

00:49:53 ◼   ► because it's gonna replace the iPhone.

00:49:55 ◼   ► And if we don't do this, it'll be too late

00:49:58 ◼   ► for our most important part of our business.

00:49:59 ◼   ► And it might replace the Mac and the iPad

00:50:01 ◼   ► and everything else too.

00:50:03 ◼   ► So it's too big a risk, so we gotta spend the money.

00:50:05 ◼   ► So that's number one.

00:50:07 ◼   ► Like I could see how if you're working on it

00:50:10 ◼   ► and you're frustrated,

00:50:12 ◼   ► and it seems like it's not gonna change the world today,

00:50:15 ◼   ► that you would have negative thoughts about it.

00:50:17 ◼   ► The second thought I have about it is,

00:50:20 ◼   ► how did people feel about all the other products

00:50:22 ◼   ► Apple has shipped that were in new categories?

00:50:24 ◼   ► I would bet that,

00:50:26 ◼   ► and I know there's a lot of revisionism going on here,

00:50:28 ◼   ► I would bet that a lot of people were super skeptical

00:50:30 ◼   ► of the Apple Watch and didn't think it was ready to ship

00:50:32 ◼   ► and thought it was a mistake, and why are we doing this?

00:50:35 ◼   ► - Trip Mickel's book says so.

00:50:37 ◼   ► - And yet now everybody's like,

00:50:38 ◼   ► "Oh, that was a great success."

00:50:41 ◼   ► Well, it's like, yeah, in hindsight it was.

00:50:43 ◼   ► What I don't know is like,

00:50:44 ◼   ► were people really unhappy about the iMac

00:50:47 ◼   ► and thought this is ridiculous and a piece of junk

00:50:49 ◼   ► and why are we shipping this or the iPad?

00:50:51 ◼   ► Probably not the iPhone, but like,

00:50:53 ◼   ► that's the other part of this is,

00:50:55 ◼   ► I don't know whether this is evidence of anything.

00:50:57 ◼   ► Maybe this is the most controversial product

00:51:00 ◼   ► that Apple has ever made internally

00:51:01 ◼   ► and that people are so unhappy with the fact that the,

00:51:04 ◼   ► that for reasons, the executives are like,

00:51:06 ◼   ► "No, we're building it."

00:51:07 ◼   ► Maybe that's the case.

00:51:09 ◼   ► Maybe it's not.

00:51:10 ◼   ► I honestly don't know.

00:51:11 ◼   ► But I do not doubt the reporting here

00:51:14 ◼   ► that there are people who are very grumpy

00:51:15 ◼   ► and skeptical about this product

00:51:17 ◼   ► and this direction that the company is taking.

00:51:19 ◼   ► What I think is really interesting, Mike,

00:51:21 ◼   ► and this goes to our classic consider the source thing,

00:51:24 ◼   ► which is, have you noticed in the last few weeks

00:51:28 ◼   ► the downplaying that is happening

00:51:30 ◼   ► about the success of this product?

00:51:32 ◼   ► I think that's interesting.

00:51:33 ◼   ► That it's like, oh, it's gonna be very expensive

00:51:35 ◼   ► and they're not gonna sell very many of them,

00:51:38 ◼   ► and it's really just gonna be for high-end uses.

00:51:40 ◼   ► And even though there's these portrayals

00:51:43 ◼   ► of sort of controversy about it,

00:51:45 ◼   ► I've started to sense a trend in pieces

00:51:48 ◼   ► that are downplaying its immediate success.

00:51:51 ◼   ► It'll be like the Apple Watch

00:51:52 ◼   ► and follow a similar trajectory.

00:51:54 ◼   ► It's not even gonna make money at first.

00:51:56 ◼   ► It'll give it time.

00:51:57 ◼   ► It's a long-range kind of thing.

00:51:59 ◼   ► And I'm not saying that somebody at Apple

00:52:02 ◼   ► is responsible for seeding that kind of attitude

00:52:06 ◼   ► in these stories.

00:52:07 ◼   ► But again, if it's not, it's doing Apple's job for it,

00:52:12 ◼   ► because I'd wanna do that if I was at Apple PR,

00:52:15 ◼   ► I would want to diminish expectations for this product.

00:52:20 ◼   ► And it feels like that's happening.

00:52:22 ◼   ► Even in this New York Times story

00:52:24 ◼   ► that has got some grumpy stuff in it,

00:52:27 ◼   ► there's also a lot of kind of like expectation setting

00:52:30 ◼   ► for the product.

00:52:31 ◼   ► - Well, I agree with you.

00:52:32 ◼   ► I think these are like separate things that are happening.

00:52:35 ◼   ► Like people are complaining.

00:52:37 ◼   ► And then Apple is also at the same time

00:52:39 ◼   ► pushing out this narrative to people.

00:52:41 ◼   ► Because it is starting to become like,

00:52:44 ◼   ► not even so much like, ooh,

00:52:47 ◼   ► it just feels like this is fact now.

00:52:49 ◼   ► And there is, I can imagine this possibility

00:52:53 ◼   ► of some under-promising going on here.

00:52:56 ◼   ► And I'm not even saying they're gonna over-deliver.

00:52:57 ◼   ► There's like under-promising deliver, right?

00:53:00 ◼   ► but I think that that is perfectly acceptable

00:53:03 ◼   ► for this product and goes back to things

00:53:05 ◼   ► that we've been saying for months now

00:53:07 ◼   ► of like just be honest about it.

00:53:10 ◼   ► Like that this is the first one,

00:53:12 ◼   ► there's gonna be more, but you gotta start.

00:53:15 ◼   ► And that is a perfectly valid route for this product

00:53:18 ◼   ► rather than trying to say we're changing the world here now.

00:53:22 ◼   ► It's like no, it takes time.

00:53:25 ◼   ► - Do they have the guts to put up a picture of Steve Jobs

00:53:27 ◼   ► and say real artists ship?

00:53:29 ◼   ► I think it is actually relevant to this.

00:53:31 ◼   ► 'Cause at some point you do have to ship a product.

00:53:34 ◼   ► You have to get on the treadmill.

00:53:35 ◼   ► You have to start your path forward.

00:53:36 ◼   ► You just have to.

00:53:38 ◼   ► You can't advance, let's wait five years

00:53:41 ◼   ► and build this in secret.

00:53:43 ◼   ► Like you can't do that.

00:53:44 ◼   ► You're not gonna get the feedback.

00:53:45 ◼   ► It's not real until you ship it,

00:53:48 ◼   ► until it meets the world

00:53:50 ◼   ► and then you discover everything that's wrong with it.

00:53:53 ◼   ► I was struck by the line in Mark Gurman's piece

00:53:56 ◼   ► that is, it lacks a clear killer app.

00:53:59 ◼   ► It's like, well, I mean, first off the New York Times story

00:54:01 ◼   ► talks about this co-presence thing,

00:54:03 ◼   ► which obviously some people at Apple

00:54:04 ◼   ► think might be something.

00:54:05 ◼   ► We also know that some people at Apple

00:54:08 ◼   ► thought that the killer app for the Apple Watch

00:54:10 ◼   ► was digital touch.

00:54:11 ◼   ► Okay. (laughs)

00:54:13 ◼   ► But again, one of the reasons you launch the platform

00:54:18 ◼   ► is to find the killer app.

00:54:20 ◼   ► And the killer app is not usually baked in the product.

00:54:24 ◼   ► The killer app usually happens out in the world

00:54:26 ◼   ► where people look at the tech that's inside the Apple

00:54:29 ◼   ► headset or anything else and go,

00:54:31 ◼   ► "Oh, you know what we could do?"

00:54:33 ◼   ► And then they build it and it's something

00:54:34 ◼   ► that's unanticipated or it hits just right

00:54:37 ◼   ► in a way that the other things that tried to do it

00:54:39 ◼   ► just didn't and you create a killer app.

00:54:41 ◼   ► The killer apps don't always happen

00:54:43 ◼   ► and the platform owner can have a lot of input

00:54:45 ◼   ► into sort of like whether they work or not.

00:54:47 ◼   ► But like the Apple 2,

00:54:49 ◼   ► forgive me if I'm getting my history

00:54:51 ◼   ► a little bit wrong here,

00:54:52 ◼   ► but like it's not like the Apple 2 shipped

00:54:54 ◼   ► because they knew that VisiCalc was coming out, right?

00:54:57 ◼   ► The first spreadsheet app.

00:54:58 ◼   ► That's not how it works.

00:55:00 ◼   ► You ship the platform

00:55:01 ◼   ► and then somebody invents the killer app for it.

00:55:03 ◼   ► And then everybody goes, "Oh my God, I can't believe."

00:55:06 ◼   ► And then it seems obvious

00:55:07 ◼   ► and then it all gets kind of retroactively defined

00:55:11 ◼   ► as being this genius thing.

00:55:12 ◼   ► - So there wasn't a killer app for the iPhone.

00:55:15 ◼   ► It was just like the whole thing was exciting.

00:55:17 ◼   ► - I was thinking about this today.

00:55:18 ◼   ► I was thinking, what's the killer app for the iPhone?

00:55:20 ◼   ► And I could argue that the killer app,

00:55:24 ◼   ► I mean, I could make an argument

00:55:25 ◼   ► that the killer app for the iPhone is Safari,

00:55:28 ◼   ► that like literally you could go anywhere.

00:55:29 ◼   ► - Yeah, but nobody thought that was exciting at the time.

00:55:33 ◼   ► - I know, I know.

00:55:34 ◼   ► And the truth is the killer app was the app store,

00:55:36 ◼   ► which allowed all the killer apps.

00:55:37 ◼   ► - Right, which didn't come for, you know, like--

00:55:40 ◼   ► - For 18 months. - There wasn't one.

00:55:42 ◼   ► It was just like, this entire product is fascinating

00:55:45 ◼   ► and it does everything a little bit better

00:55:47 ◼   ► than how you're currently doing it.

00:55:49 ◼   ► It didn't have like the one thing when it was announced

00:55:53 ◼   ► that pushed it over the edge.

00:55:55 ◼   ► - You're right.

00:55:55 ◼   ► And then 18 months later or so,

00:55:57 ◼   ► they announced the App Store, which changed the game

00:56:00 ◼   ► and that did lead, did open the door and did lead to more,

00:56:03 ◼   ► but it wasn't there at launch.

00:56:04 ◼   ► And you could argue came about in part

00:56:07 ◼   ► because they shipped the first one

00:56:08 ◼   ► and with their sweet solution for development,

00:56:10 ◼   ► which was web apps and the world said, no.

00:56:14 ◼   ► - Yeah. - Mm-mm, no.

00:56:15 ◼   ► - It's like there wasn't even a killer app.

00:56:16 ◼   ► - You need to write software.

00:56:17 ◼   ► - The killer app store, right?

00:56:18 ◼   ► and then everybody had their own killer app.

00:56:20 ◼   ► Like that's actually how you do it.

00:56:22 ◼   ► - Exactly, exactly.

00:56:23 ◼   ► But it was not there at launch.

00:56:25 ◼   ► So I'm not saying, again, the lack of a killer app

00:56:27 ◼   ► is not proof that there will be a killer app.

00:56:29 ◼   ► That's madness, that's not true.

00:56:31 ◼   ► But the lack of a killer app is also not proof

00:56:33 ◼   ► that there won't be, right?

00:56:34 ◼   ► It's just we don't know. - It's Schrodinger's

00:56:35 ◼   ► killer app, that's what we're doing.

00:56:36 ◼   ► - Yeah, there's a box and there might be a killer app

00:56:38 ◼   ► in it or not, we don't know.

00:56:40 ◼   ► And that's yet to be, but again, until you ship,

00:56:44 ◼   ► you can't open the box.

00:56:45 ◼   ► Until you ship, that's the thing ultimately

00:56:48 ◼   ► about all these arguments about this product is like,

00:56:50 ◼   ► again, one, I absolutely agree that I think

00:56:53 ◼   ► that this is being pushed at the highest levels

00:56:55 ◼   ► because of the big terms,

00:56:57 ◼   ► the big picture strategy of the future,

00:56:59 ◼   ► which is hard if you're working on the product

00:57:01 ◼   ► and you feel like it's not as good as it should be.

00:57:03 ◼   ► Totally see that conflict there, right?

00:57:05 ◼   ► But like, two, I really believe that some of these comments

00:57:09 ◼   ► about like, oh, I don't know if we should ship this,

00:57:10 ◼   ► it's like, it just, especially the FT story last week,

00:57:14 ◼   ► It just reminds me of how invaluable it is

00:57:19 ◼   ► to ship a product.

00:57:20 ◼   ► Like shipping a product,

00:57:22 ◼   ► there is only so much you can ever do to a product

00:57:25 ◼   ► behind the scenes.

00:57:26 ◼   ► You have to ship it.

00:57:27 ◼   ► It's like in my business of writing articles on the internet,

00:57:31 ◼   ► it's the equivalent of you post the article

00:57:34 ◼   ► and the moment you post it,

00:57:35 ◼   ► you see three things that are wrong with it

00:57:36 ◼   ► and you have to edit it.

00:57:38 ◼   ► Like there is something about being out in the world

00:57:41 ◼   ► that makes things different.

00:57:44 ◼   ► It's because anybody can see it

00:57:45 ◼   ► and they can pick it apart

00:57:46 ◼   ► and they will do things with it that you're not used to.

00:57:48 ◼   ► And like, that's actually kind of magical.

00:57:51 ◼   ► And that's the number one reason

00:57:52 ◼   ► I'm interested in this product is,

00:57:54 ◼   ► I wanna know what it is,

00:57:55 ◼   ► but I mean, I'm sorry to bring up the cliche

00:57:58 ◼   ► that Apple likes to say,

00:58:00 ◼   ► but you know, there's something to it,

00:58:02 ◼   ► which is we can't wait to see what you do with it.

00:58:04 ◼   ► That encapsulates it.

00:58:06 ◼   ► Like in the end, Apple can do what it can do,

00:58:09 ◼   ► but in the end, you gotta release it

00:58:12 ◼   ► and wait to see what somebody does with it.

00:58:15 ◼   ► That's the important part.

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01:01:24 ◼   ► Mark Gurman in his Poweron newsletter has suggested that iOS 17 will feature several

01:01:34 ◼   ► "nice to have" features that are intended to address some commonly made user requests.

01:01:44 ◼   ► This is very different to what we had previously been led to believe, that iOS 17 would just

01:01:49 ◼   ► be a bunch of bug fixes because of everyone focusing on the headset.

01:01:53 ◼   ► So I thought that maybe today we could talk about what would be a bunch of nice to have

01:01:58 ◼   ► features for iOS 7.

01:02:01 ◼   ► - Love it.

01:02:02 ◼   ► - I got in there at the end, I forgot the teen.

01:02:05 ◼   ► iOS 7, a nice to have feature would be a readable font.

01:02:09 ◼   ► That would be a good feature for iOS 7.

01:02:12 ◼   ► - Teen.

01:02:13 ◼   ► - iOS 7 teen.

01:02:14 ◼   ► - Yeah.

01:02:15 ◼   ► - What jumps to mind for you?

01:02:17 ◼   ► What would you be happy to see added to iOS 17?

01:02:21 ◼   ► - Home automation, but I feel like that's also right,

01:02:25 ◼   ► like tvOS, but I am, I mean,

01:02:28 ◼   ► we can talk about shortcuts in general, right?

01:02:30 ◼   ► I feel like more shortcut support in apps,

01:02:33 ◼   ► more capability for shortcuts to do other things.

01:02:37 ◼   ► They've been so far behind there.

01:02:39 ◼   ► In fact, this would be a probably a good time to mention.

01:02:42 ◼   ► Alex Hay, the creator of Toolbox Pro

01:02:46 ◼   ► and a bunch of other stuff passed away last week.

01:02:50 ◼   ► They did a nice write-up about it on Mac stories,

01:02:53 ◼   ► John Voorhees did.

01:02:54 ◼   ► Obviously, to everybody who was touched by Alex

01:02:59 ◼   ► in his life and his family and all of that,

01:03:02 ◼   ► our greatest condolences.

01:03:04 ◼   ► But I was struck when I read about Alex's passing

01:03:07 ◼   ► at how he was doing so much heavy lifting for Apple.

01:03:10 ◼   ► Because like Toolbox Pro,

01:03:14 ◼   ► Toolbox Pro is a great example

01:03:17 ◼   ► of all of the shortcut actions that Apple just hasn't done.

01:03:22 ◼   ► That are, they're right there

01:03:26 ◼   ► and that Apple hasn't done them.

01:03:28 ◼   ► So it struck me this morning thinking about that,

01:03:31 ◼   ► that that would be a thing that I would like to see

01:03:33 ◼   ► Apple do in shortcuts is look at all the stuff built

01:03:38 ◼   ► for things like Toolbox Pro

01:03:40 ◼   ► and do them in the operating system.

01:03:44 ◼   ► 'Cause the problem with an app like Toolbox Pro

01:03:46 ◼   ► is you have to have it installed to use it.

01:03:49 ◼   ► So handing it out to your friends,

01:03:51 ◼   ► a shortcut that relies on Toolbox Pro is harder

01:03:53 ◼   ► because they have to get Toolbox Pro and all of that.

01:03:56 ◼   ► So I'm struck by that.

01:03:58 ◼   ► And then more broadly than sort of like better,

01:04:01 ◼   ► better integration with shortcuts and on the iPad,

01:04:04 ◼   ► which is not, I've had OS, iOS, pretty much the same.

01:04:07 ◼   ► Keyboards, keyboard support for shortcuts is a good example,

01:04:10 ◼   ► but like more actions.

01:04:13 ◼   ► And then the home automation side,

01:04:14 ◼   ► which you can get to in the Home app,

01:04:16 ◼   ► which is like shortcuts,

01:04:17 ◼   ► but pretty weak at what it's capable of doing

01:04:21 ◼   ► and has been weak for a long time

01:04:22 ◼   ► since they introduced it.

01:04:24 ◼   ► I would really like to see a more sophisticated

01:04:27 ◼   ► set of home automations that can run on tvOS

01:04:30 ◼   ► or wherever the home hub is

01:04:33 ◼   ► to do more sophisticated things

01:04:35 ◼   ► because it's pretty dumb right now,

01:04:37 ◼   ► even though you can do,

01:04:38 ◼   ► yeah, you can build like home automation shortcuts,

01:04:41 ◼   ► but they're kind of dumb.

01:04:42 ◼   ► They just don't,

01:04:43 ◼   ► I need more, I need more conditionals, I need more,

01:04:47 ◼   ► if it's within this range and this sensor is above this,

01:04:51 ◼   ► then do that kind of thing.

01:04:53 ◼   ► And you just can't get to that level of specificity.

01:04:57 ◼   ► So that would be one of mine.

01:04:58 ◼   ► - I will mention here, as I've mentioned forever,

01:05:02 ◼   ► I love tap backs on iMessage, use them all day, every day.

01:05:07 ◼   ► I wished I could just have all of emoji available to me,

01:05:10 ◼   ► same as Slack, Discord, WhatsApp.

01:05:13 ◼   ► It's fine that there's a few that are preset there,

01:05:16 ◼   ► but just let me add emoji to messages

01:05:19 ◼   ► rather than just those preset five things, you know?

01:05:23 ◼   ► I would love that.

01:05:24 ◼   ► - Yeah, oh boy, that's one of my favorites.

01:05:26 ◼   ► And I know why you might wanna keep it constrained

01:05:29 ◼   ► to the five or whatever, but I just,

01:05:34 ◼   ► I want more of a lexicon and the emoji set is right there.

01:05:37 ◼   ► And I get that you might wanna have them be,

01:05:39 ◼   ► first off, people are comfortable with emojis.

01:05:41 ◼   ► People are comfortable sending emojis.

01:05:43 ◼   ► So having emojis as tap backs and let it be settable

01:05:46 ◼   ► or let it be that it's those five.

01:05:48 ◼   ► And then you, you know, they're the five most recent ones

01:05:50 ◼   ► you've used maybe, but then you can add others or, you know,

01:05:54 ◼   ► have a more button that lets you pick from the emoji picker.

01:05:59 ◼   ► And then that one gets put in your most recent

01:06:01 ◼   ► because Slack and Discord have shown us

01:06:04 ◼   ► that emoji responses are a lot of fun.

01:06:07 ◼   ► And I love tap backs and I wish I had more expressivity

01:06:12 ◼   ► with them.

01:06:13 ◼   ► - And that feels to me like,

01:06:14 ◼   ► talk about like a commonly requested feature,

01:06:17 ◼   ► that's got to be one of them.

01:06:18 ◼   ► Like people must be looking for that.

01:06:21 ◼   ► - Unless there's some very complex way

01:06:23 ◼   ► that tap backs are handled within the iMessage system,

01:06:25 ◼   ► you would think that this would be a thing

01:06:27 ◼   ► that they could, not that there are challenges

01:06:28 ◼   ► to the interface, I just described one of them,

01:06:30 ◼   ► but like you would think that would be a pretty,

01:06:33 ◼   ► if not easy, a fairly doable thing that would be a win

01:06:36 ◼   ► and would be a crowd-pleaser, 'cause people love emojis.

01:06:39 ◼   ► - I will say as well, it's a similar while we're at that,

01:06:41 ◼   ► they're gonna change that. I do not need a full iMessage notification for that

01:06:45 ◼   ► box. I don't need it. Yeah, love to be able to turn that off. Yeah.

01:06:50 ◼   ► Jason said "haha" like I don't need that. No. "Haha." "Haha." You always say "hah"

01:06:56 ◼   ► space "hah." "Hah." "Hah." "Hah." I've said this before but I'll say it again. That's how Jason

01:07:02 ◼   ► doesn't say "lol" or anything like that. If Jason thinks something's funny,

01:07:07 ◼   ► HA space HA, very unsettling.

01:07:10 ◼   ► - Sometimes there's three ha's.

01:07:11 ◼   ► - It's very unsettling.

01:07:13 ◼   ► - I don't know, HA HA comes across to me as ha ha ha ha ha.

01:07:17 ◼   ► And that's, I find that unsettling in my head.

01:07:19 ◼   ► - Yeah, but nobody like goes ha, ha, ha, like that's not.

01:07:24 ◼   ► - Ha ha ha, there it is.

01:07:25 ◼   ► - Yeah, but I feel like that's, there's no space there.

01:07:28 ◼   ► - Ha, ha.

01:07:31 ◼   ► - See, it stops signin'.

01:07:33 ◼   ► Widgets, widgets everywhere.

01:07:35 ◼   ► We want more widgets on the lock screen,

01:07:38 ◼   ► different sizes, big ones, small ones.

01:07:41 ◼   ► We want, maybe we want some level of interactivity.

01:07:46 ◼   ► I think the jury's still out.

01:07:47 ◼   ► I don't want it, I don't particularly feel like I need it,

01:07:50 ◼   ► but maybe the occasional thing might be helpful.

01:07:53 ◼   ► Yeah, loads more widget stuff.

01:07:55 ◼   ► That would be good for everywhere that there's widgets.

01:07:58 ◼   ► - Yeah, I want more widget space on the lock screen.

01:08:03 ◼   ► And then I was thinking about it

01:08:05 ◼   ► and I was thinking, you know,

01:08:06 ◼   ► I wanna just put widgets on the lock screen.

01:08:08 ◼   ► I just wanna put any widget on the lock screen.

01:08:10 ◼   ► - Like a home screen widget on the lock screen?

01:08:13 ◼   ► - Right, why am I limited?

01:08:16 ◼   ► And I know there's like, oh, well,

01:08:18 ◼   ► but your picture and we're creating a frame is like,

01:08:20 ◼   ► well, you know what?

01:08:21 ◼   ► I'm a big boy.

01:08:22 ◼   ► I wanna put a widget on my home screen

01:08:25 ◼   ► and have it cover up the background picture

01:08:27 ◼   ► or on my lock screen.

01:08:28 ◼   ► Let me do it.

01:08:29 ◼   ► Right, let me do it.

01:08:30 ◼   ► Let me choose to do that.

01:08:32 ◼   ► If widgets are more important to me

01:08:34 ◼   ► than the pictures on my lock screen,

01:08:36 ◼   ► I should be able to make that decision.

01:08:38 ◼   ► So I would like to see that

01:08:40 ◼   ► because I think the lock screen would be a great stage

01:08:43 ◼   ► on which to set some home screen widgets too.

01:08:47 ◼   ► - Well, anything else that jumps to your mind?

01:08:51 ◼   ► - Oh, let's see.

01:08:53 ◼   ► I was thinking, I had a vague idea.

01:08:56 ◼   ► So I just appear behind the curtain.

01:08:58 ◼   ► I woke up this morning and to a text from Mike saying,

01:09:03 ◼   ► saying we're gonna do this iOS 7 wishlist,

01:09:06 ◼   ► so you might wanna put some work in there.

01:09:07 ◼   ► - iOS 17. - Okay, all right.

01:09:09 ◼   ► Sorry, team. - You said seven as well.

01:09:10 ◼   ► (laughs)

01:09:11 ◼   ► I'm saying something as a mind virus.

01:09:13 ◼   ► Are we gonna do this for the next year?

01:09:15 ◼   ► - Team, I'm gonna change our topic to 17TEEN.

01:09:20 ◼   ► Just to be clear.

01:09:23 ◼   ► - The problem here with iOS 7, so iconic.

01:09:28 ◼   ► I would say the most iconic iOS release of all time.

01:09:33 ◼   ► Like whether you like it or not,

01:09:35 ◼   ► it's like if you were around then,

01:09:38 ◼   ► it's like emblazoned in your mind.

01:09:41 ◼   ► And so I feel like I'm gonna be calling iOS 17,

01:09:44 ◼   ► iOS 7 constantly now.

01:09:46 ◼   ► And I didn't realize until today that that was a problem,

01:09:49 ◼   ► but I think it's gonna be a problem for me.

01:09:51 ◼   ► - iOS 7, teen.

01:09:54 ◼   ► - iOS 7, fourteens.

01:09:56 ◼   ► It's like a cool version.

01:09:57 ◼   ► - More widgets.

01:09:58 ◼   ► - Anyway, I don't even know what I said.

01:10:01 ◼   ► So after all of that, of like getting up

01:10:04 ◼   ► on a Monday morning and thinking about things,

01:10:06 ◼   ► one of the half-brained things I wrote down

01:10:11 ◼   ► was smart notification center.

01:10:14 ◼   ► And let me just tell you what my thought process is here.

01:10:17 ◼   ► It's one, I don't love notification center.

01:10:19 ◼   ► - It's never been good.

01:10:21 ◼   ► - It's never really been good, it's full of garbage.

01:10:24 ◼   ► And I thought, and I know that sometimes

01:10:26 ◼   ► they try to do some of this,

01:10:27 ◼   ► but I thought, 'cause you wrote down for another thing

01:10:30 ◼   ► that we haven't talked about, AI, machine learning

01:10:32 ◼   ► and stuff like that, are there features

01:10:33 ◼   ► that you could do there?

01:10:34 ◼   ► And I thought, I wonder if you could do

01:10:36 ◼   ► a machine learning based summary of your notification center

01:10:41 ◼   ► that would appear when, like, since the last time

01:10:45 ◼   ► you looked or maybe it would appear as a notification

01:10:48 ◼   ► since the last time you picked up your phone.

01:10:50 ◼   ► - Well, they do have that notification summary thing,

01:10:53 ◼   ► but that's not good. - They do have that.

01:10:55 ◼   ► - I think. - It's not good though.

01:10:56 ◼   ► So this is what I'm saying is,

01:10:57 ◼   ► I just, what I literally wrote down

01:11:00 ◼   ► and have not got the details

01:11:01 ◼   ► 'cause I just thought of it like an hour ago,

01:11:03 ◼   ► is what if we used AI machine learning

01:11:08 ◼   ► summarization or something,

01:11:10 ◼   ► could we put that on Notification Center

01:11:13 ◼   ► and make it better and useful?

01:11:17 ◼   ► 'Cause I probably don't need to know

01:11:21 ◼   ► everything that's in the Notification Center,

01:11:23 ◼   ► but I wonder if there's a way to like,

01:11:25 ◼   ► for you to boil it down for me in a good way.

01:11:28 ◼   ► I don't know.

01:11:29 ◼   ► Or throw out AI or just something else to make it better.

01:11:34 ◼   ► 'Cause it's just not, it doesn't work for me.

01:11:36 ◼   ► - Something I wanted to write down,

01:11:37 ◼   ► but I didn't know how to express it,

01:11:39 ◼   ► was just notifications, right?

01:11:41 ◼   ► That like the system isn't good fundamentally

01:11:45 ◼   ► and stuff could be done here.

01:11:47 ◼   ► Like this is especially in my mind

01:11:48 ◼   ► as this is the Mac power users,

01:11:50 ◼   ► they're talking about like digital distractions

01:11:51 ◼   ► and stuff this week.

01:11:52 ◼   ► And like, so it was in my head,

01:11:54 ◼   ► but something like this is like,

01:11:55 ◼   ► yeah, just make it better with machine learning somehow, right?

01:11:59 ◼   ► And this is like, you referenced something that I've written down is,

01:12:03 ◼   ► is a large language model powered Siri.

01:12:06 ◼   ► I don't think that's going to happen in Iowa 17 necessarily,

01:12:09 ◼   ► but I feel like that is just inevitable.

01:12:13 ◼   ► So it's just about when they do this.

01:12:16 ◼   ► And so like the idea of a revamp of Siri feels like it would be a commonly

01:12:20 ◼   ► made request, like quote, makes Siri better, right?

01:12:23 ◼   ► and I'm assuming at some point that is going to be a GPT-like thing, right?

01:12:31 ◼   ► Where however Apple makes something like that,

01:12:34 ◼   ► it feels like they've got to do this because everyone's going to do this

01:12:39 ◼   ► and Siri will only become more and more of a joke over time

01:12:44 ◼   ► if you can't have a conversation with it and it do stuff for you,

01:12:48 ◼   ► whether that stuff, wouldn't know about what the quality of that stuff is.

01:12:52 ◼   ► You know, we are, we're on a ticking clock, right?

01:12:55 ◼   ► Until either Amazon, Google, or Apple puts this

01:12:59 ◼   ► into their smart speaker assistant.

01:13:02 ◼   ► - And I get that you don't want the hallucinations

01:13:05 ◼   ► and misinformation, but it is so tantalizing,

01:13:07 ◼   ► the idea that I could have a conversation with Siri,

01:13:10 ◼   ► where it would be a conversation,

01:13:11 ◼   ► and where I could ask a question and get an answer,

01:13:14 ◼   ► and then ask a follow-up and get another answer.

01:13:16 ◼   ► And again, I think a lot of the AI demos

01:13:18 ◼   ► that we see out there are bad, right?

01:13:19 ◼   ► It's write a screenplay or give me a fact is good.

01:13:24 ◼   ► And a lot of times, I did that last week.

01:13:27 ◼   ► I was talking to a couple of friends who were Dr. Who fans

01:13:29 ◼   ► and I was like, I'm gonna have chapter GPT-4 hallucinate.

01:13:33 ◼   ► And I asked it to hallucinate,

01:13:34 ◼   ► but even when I asked it for facts,

01:13:37 ◼   ► anyway, I asked it to invent the Dr. Who season,

01:13:40 ◼   ► which was hilarious and cliched,

01:13:42 ◼   ► as they always are, all the answers are cliched.

01:13:44 ◼   ► - It did it. - 'Cause they're built.

01:13:45 ◼   ► - It did the job. (laughs)

01:13:46 ◼   ► - But it did it.

01:13:47 ◼   ► But then I asked it for facts

01:13:49 ◼   ► And it hallucinated horrendously.

01:13:51 ◼   ► And it's like, this is a problem,

01:13:53 ◼   ► but that's the part that they need to get right.

01:13:55 ◼   ► I don't need Siri to invent things for me,

01:13:58 ◼   ► even though it's fun.

01:13:59 ◼   ► And I don't need to have long conversations with Siri

01:14:02 ◼   ► where I talk about my feelings

01:14:06 ◼   ► and it tries to get me to leave my wife, right?

01:14:08 ◼   ► I don't need those kinds of stories,

01:14:10 ◼   ► but I would like it if I could talk to Siri

01:14:14 ◼   ► and try to get facts and get them in context.

01:14:17 ◼   ► I would like to be able to say, "Hey, you, when's the next Giants game?"

01:14:26 ◼   ► And for it to say, "Well, it's Thursday against the New York Yankees."

01:14:29 ◼   ► And then I would like to be able to follow that up and say, "Oh, who are the starting

01:14:33 ◼   ► pitchers?"

01:14:35 ◼   ► And have it give me the answer.

01:14:38 ◼   ► And then say, "What about the starting lineups?"

01:14:42 ◼   ► And have it say intelligently, "The starting lineups won't be posted until the morning

01:14:47 ◼   ► of the game, so I don't know.

01:14:48 ◼   ► Like that's the dream, right?

01:14:50 ◼   ► Where it's just better at context

01:14:54 ◼   ► and at giving me information in ways that I can grasp.

01:14:57 ◼   ► And it can do, again, it can do

01:14:59 ◼   ► the wins the giants next game today.

01:15:01 ◼   ► And so can Google and so can Amazon's assistant,

01:15:05 ◼   ► who I fired and sent back to Amazon in a box last week,

01:15:07 ◼   ► which was very delightful.

01:15:10 ◼   ► She's in a box, Alexa's in a box going back to Amazon, bye.

01:15:14 ◼   ► So yeah, that's the dream, right?

01:15:16 ◼   ► Well, my dream, Jason, is that I can say to Siri,

01:15:19 ◼   ► "Hey, once me and Jason were talking about something

01:15:23 ◼   ► of iMessage about baseball, can you find that for me?"

01:15:27 ◼   ► That's what I wanted to do, right?

01:15:29 ◼   ► I don't need this thing to talk to the internet.

01:15:32 ◼   ► I understand how to use the search engine.

01:15:35 ◼   ► I can just do it myself.

01:15:36 ◼   ► What I'm excited about is being able to take my information

01:15:40 ◼   ► and put them into these models.

01:15:41 ◼   ► And like, Siri on my iPhone should be able to tell me

01:15:45 ◼   ► about anything that's happening on my iPhone.

01:15:47 ◼   ► Like, forget searching emails, right?

01:15:49 ◼   ► Like, I just wanna say, can you find that email

01:15:52 ◼   ► about that one time me and Jason were talking about

01:15:54 ◼   ► what the name of upgrade was gonna be?

01:15:56 ◼   ► - That's the dream, right?

01:15:57 ◼   ► And I mean, on the Mac too,

01:15:59 ◼   ► because remember Siri is on the Mac too.

01:16:01 ◼   ► I know they've done some experimenting with this,

01:16:04 ◼   ► but like, the dream is that it knows

01:16:07 ◼   ► that I've got Google Docs,

01:16:09 ◼   ► and I've got files on my hard drive,

01:16:11 ◼   ► and I've got things in iCloud,

01:16:12 ◼   ► and I've got all that stuff.

01:16:14 ◼   ► And when I say, you know, when did Mike and I talk about this thing or Slack or Discord,

01:16:21 ◼   ► that it would be capable of looking at all my things that are logged in and say,

01:16:26 ◼   ► Oh, uh, it was in Slack on this date or whatever.

01:16:31 ◼   ► And here's a link to that and you can go see it.

01:16:33 ◼   ► And I know that that's a ways off because it would have to catalog everything that was

01:16:39 ◼   ► happening everywhere.

01:16:40 ◼   ► And there are those, there's that app out there that like does that right.

01:16:42 ◼   ► where the catalogs everything and records everything you say

01:16:45 ◼   ► and does all of that.

01:16:47 ◼   ► But I agree with you on a simple level,

01:16:50 ◼   ► it is, if I could, if it's got the corpus

01:16:53 ◼   ► of the essentially spotlight search, right?

01:16:57 ◼   ► And I give it a command saying,

01:17:00 ◼   ► when did Mike and I exchange email about this thing?

01:17:03 ◼   ► Or when did I exchange email with somebody at Apple

01:17:06 ◼   ► about this thing?

01:17:07 ◼   ► And I don't even know who it is.

01:17:09 ◼   ► That it would be able to look at my query,

01:17:12 ◼   ► figure out what that meant, make a spotlight query,

01:17:15 ◼   ► get the results back, look at the results,

01:17:19 ◼   ► see what the most likely scenarios are

01:17:22 ◼   ► and respond with an answer.

01:17:23 ◼   ► And it might be, well, it could be this one or that one.

01:17:26 ◼   ► And then you'd say, I think it's this one

01:17:28 ◼   ► or tell me what that one is.

01:17:30 ◼   ► And then it would give you an answer, right?

01:17:31 ◼   ► You can see the applications here.

01:17:32 ◼   ► The challenge is there's a reason why

01:17:34 ◼   ► none of these assistants are doing that now.

01:17:36 ◼   ► And I think it's because they lie.

01:17:38 ◼   ► They don't work, they don't work right.

01:17:41 ◼   ► but I would love to see it.

01:17:43 ◼   ► - You'd love to see it.

01:17:45 ◼   ► Talking about machine learning stuff,

01:17:47 ◼   ► I think you put in here machine learning editing for photos

01:17:52 ◼   ► and you referenced something like Google or Pixelmator.

01:17:56 ◼   ► Like over the last couple of days,

01:17:58 ◼   ► I was taking some images and I was using,

01:18:01 ◼   ► I'd never done it before,

01:18:03 ◼   ► Pixelmator pros machine learning editing tools.

01:18:07 ◼   ► They are unbelievable.

01:18:09 ◼   ► I've been meaning to do a video which is,

01:18:12 ◼   ► did you know that not only does Google make a phone,

01:18:16 ◼   ► but that Pixelmator Pro has been,

01:18:18 ◼   ► or Pixelmator Photo has been erasing things

01:18:20 ◼   ► off of iPhone and iPad photos for years now?

01:18:23 ◼   ► Like every time I see that ad where it's like,

01:18:25 ◼   ► oh look, I erased this person

01:18:26 ◼   ► and they're not in my beach shot anymore.

01:18:28 ◼   ► And I'm like, I did that three years ago

01:18:30 ◼   ► with Pixelmator Photo on my iPad.

01:18:32 ◼   ► Look, Mike, I write a book about photos.

01:18:35 ◼   ► Every year I update it.

01:18:37 ◼   ► Every year I'm looking at what the photos announcements are.

01:18:39 ◼   ► I cannot believe that photos on iOS

01:18:42 ◼   ► does not have a retouching brush.

01:18:45 ◼   ► Photos on the Mac has one,

01:18:47 ◼   ► and it's more like the clone tool in Photoshop

01:18:50 ◼   ► than it is like an ML replace tool.

01:18:52 ◼   ► But like Pixelmator Photo is right there.

01:18:54 ◼   ► It's been there for years.

01:18:55 ◼   ► It does, it will do upscaling.

01:18:57 ◼   ► It will do an ML based auto mode.

01:19:00 ◼   ► And for all I know, Apple's auto mode

01:19:02 ◼   ► is also an ML based auto mode.

01:19:04 ◼   ► So, okay, fine.

01:19:06 ◼   ► - It's nowhere near as good though.

01:19:07 ◼   ► It's nowhere near as good.

01:19:08 ◼   ► - It's not as good, it isn't, which is why I wonder.

01:19:11 ◼   ► And then it's got that replacement tool,

01:19:14 ◼   ► which again is not perfect,

01:19:16 ◼   ► but Google is making hay on,

01:19:19 ◼   ► did you know we have this feature?

01:19:21 ◼   ► And it's like that feature has been on iOS for years now,

01:19:23 ◼   ► but it's been a third party app

01:19:24 ◼   ► and Apple has just not put retouching.

01:19:27 ◼   ► And that would be, again, I don't know how easy it would be,

01:19:30 ◼   ► but like there is a version of that on photos for Mac.

01:19:33 ◼   ► I just, I would really like to see that

01:19:34 ◼   ► 'cause there is nothing like having a beautiful photo

01:19:37 ◼   ► of you and your friends or your family on a beach.

01:19:40 ◼   ► And there's some dummy walking in the background

01:19:43 ◼   ► just minding his own business.

01:19:45 ◼   ► It's not his fault that he's there,

01:19:46 ◼   ► but he's ruining your shot, he's photo bombing you.

01:19:48 ◼   ► And you literally just go, boop, and he disappears.

01:19:51 ◼   ► It is a great feature.

01:19:52 ◼   ► It just frustrates me that Google is making

01:19:54 ◼   ► so much noise about it,

01:19:55 ◼   ► since it's been on the platform for years now.

01:19:59 ◼   ► So I know people will be like,

01:20:01 ◼   ► "Oh, look, Apple took Google's feature and put it in."

01:20:03 ◼   ► as like, do it, just do it.

01:20:05 ◼   ► And other, you know, anything you can do

01:20:08 ◼   ► to make your photo editing on the fly

01:20:11 ◼   ► on an iPhone better, do it.

01:20:12 ◼   ► - Split view on iPhone.

01:20:16 ◼   ► I want it.

01:20:17 ◼   ► Just let me do split view on iPhone.

01:20:19 ◼   ► Just like, I got a big iPhone.

01:20:21 ◼   ► Let me look at two apps at once.

01:20:22 ◼   ► - They're not getting smaller.

01:20:24 ◼   ► - No, I would like that.

01:20:26 ◼   ► So let me do that.

01:20:27 ◼   ► - I agree with you.

01:20:28 ◼   ► I think that's a good one.

01:20:30 ◼   ► I laughed when I saw that you put that in your list

01:20:32 ◼   ► because, you know. - It is funny.

01:20:33 ◼   ► It is funny, but like, it's not unreasonable.

01:20:38 ◼   ► I'll throw in, how about,

01:20:41 ◼   ► hey, satellite SOS is out there now.

01:20:45 ◼   ► And I know they're expanding into other markets

01:20:47 ◼   ► and all of that.

01:20:48 ◼   ► You know what else they could do,

01:20:50 ◼   ► is actually build satellite communication in.

01:20:55 ◼   ► And now that it's launched, right?

01:20:58 ◼   ► Like charge a fee per message or something

01:21:01 ◼   ► tied to your Apple account,

01:21:02 ◼   ► or have you have to sign up for satellite messaging

01:21:05 ◼   ► and it would be only for a limited use.

01:21:07 ◼   ► But like, I feel like that is a next step for the platform

01:21:11 ◼   ► is giving phones that have access

01:21:13 ◼   ► to the satellite communicator,

01:21:15 ◼   ► the ability to send a text message over satellite,

01:21:20 ◼   ► for a fee.

01:21:22 ◼   ► - iCloud Plus, baby, you know.

01:21:24 ◼   ► - Maybe, maybe, or it's a whole extra thing.

01:21:26 ◼   ► They might have another,

01:21:27 ◼   ► I mean, they said that was for two years, right?

01:21:29 ◼   ► They may be, I mean, there's no time like the present

01:21:32 ◼   ► a story, but if they're going to get people to pay in two years, then, you know, start

01:21:35 ◼   ► building out what they're paying for. If they're paying for just satellite SOS, or if there's

01:21:39 ◼   ► an upsell, or if you pay, do you get more than the basic feature that you get when you

01:21:44 ◼   ► buy an iPhone? I don't know. I just, it was a thought that I had that now that satellite

01:21:48 ◼   ► SOS is out the door, that would be the logical next step, right? Which is, I'm not, I don't

01:21:53 ◼   ► need an SOS, but I, sending my location is not like, I want to do more than that. You

01:21:59 ◼   ► and send you a location via satellite.

01:22:01 ◼   ► But like, I wanna send a text message

01:22:04 ◼   ► or receive a text message from a particular person

01:22:06 ◼   ► via satellite.

01:22:07 ◼   ► Like, I know that's complex,

01:22:09 ◼   ► but like, let me do it and pay for it.

01:22:13 ◼   ► - Last one I'll mention, passwords app.

01:22:15 ◼   ► - Yeah, I put that in there.

01:22:18 ◼   ► - Yeah.

01:22:19 ◼   ► - Aren't you glad I put it in there?

01:22:19 ◼   ► - Yeah, aren't you glad?

01:22:20 ◼   ► - Right? - Mm-hmm.

01:22:21 ◼   ► - Right, passwords is so full featured as a thing on iOS

01:22:25 ◼   ► and it's hidden in a settings menu.

01:22:28 ◼   ► And it's like, it's so good.

01:22:30 ◼   ► Like there are, I'm not gonna name names,

01:22:33 ◼   ► but like there are probably other Apple apps

01:22:35 ◼   ► that don't need to be apps,

01:22:36 ◼   ► but passwords needs to be an app.

01:22:38 ◼   ► It really deserves to be an app.

01:22:40 ◼   ► They deserve to take all that work

01:22:42 ◼   ► and put it front and center and say,

01:22:44 ◼   ► we have a password manager.

01:22:45 ◼   ► I try to explain the password manager to people.

01:22:47 ◼   ► And I say, you gotta go into settings

01:22:49 ◼   ► and you go out and they're like, ugh.

01:22:50 ◼   ► It's like, let's not do that.

01:22:52 ◼   ► Let's put passwords on the phone.

01:22:55 ◼   ► So you tap.

01:22:56 ◼   ► And I know that's silly on one level.

01:22:57 ◼   ► it's like, well, it's just in settings, you can get there.

01:22:59 ◼   ► It's like, yeah, but also if you're going back and forth

01:23:02 ◼   ► with your passwords app, you're in the settings app.

01:23:06 ◼   ► It's just break it up, make it its own thing.

01:23:09 ◼   ► That's what I say.

01:23:10 ◼   ► My, I wanna do some footnotes here.

01:23:13 ◼   ► This is mostly about iOS, but like iPadOS,

01:23:16 ◼   ► all those iPhone features that are not yet an iPadOS,

01:23:18 ◼   ► I would like them like widgets on lock screens

01:23:21 ◼   ► and editable lock screens and stuff like that.

01:23:24 ◼   ► Like please, can we get that on the iPad now?

01:23:27 ◼   ► That seems to be doable since it's literally already

01:23:30 ◼   ► on the platform, just not on the other hardware.

01:23:33 ◼   ► And my last LOL wishlist item is virtualization.

01:23:38 ◼   ► And that's an iPad feature, but like, yeah,

01:23:42 ◼   ► let me run a VM on an iPad.

01:23:43 ◼   ► Let me virtualize macOS on an M2 iPad Pro.

01:23:47 ◼   ► Why not?

01:23:48 ◼   ► - Let me have an LOL feature or a ha feature.

01:23:51 ◼   ► - Ha.

01:23:51 ◼   ► - Ha.

01:23:52 ◼   ► - Ha.

01:23:53 ◼   ► - Ha.

01:23:54 ◼   ► stores. Lots of people are asking for a ha. You know ha ha ha ha.

01:24:02 ◼   ► This episode is brought to you by electric. Turning a small business into an empire takes

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01:25:42 ◼   ► up with some #AskUpgradeQuestions.

01:25:46 ◼   ► (mimics air whooshing)

01:25:47 ◼   ► No hashtag, just #AskUpgradeQuestions.

01:25:48 ◼   ► - Shot the hashtag with a laser right there.

01:25:50 ◼   ► - Indeed.

01:25:51 ◼   ► Carl says, "Should Apple just make a 13-inch iPad Air?"

01:25:55 ◼   ► - Sure, why not?

01:25:58 ◼   ► I think this goes to the 15-inch MacBook Air question,

01:26:01 ◼   ► right, which is like-- - That is exactly it.

01:26:03 ◼   ► - Are we gating iPad size based on Pro features,

01:26:08 ◼   ► or is there a market for a larger iPad?

01:26:11 ◼   ► I don't know.

01:26:12 ◼   ► I mean, I wonder what market research Apple has done

01:26:15 ◼   ► on this front, because look, I love my 12.9-inch iPad Pro,

01:26:20 ◼   ► but every time I pick up my wife's 11-inch iPad Pro,

01:26:25 ◼   ► I think, "Oh, it's much smaller and lighter

01:26:28 ◼   ► than the thing that I use."

01:26:30 ◼   ► And so I wonder if people are,

01:26:33 ◼   ► if there are enough people like me

01:26:34 ◼   ► who would want a larger thing,

01:26:36 ◼   ► and if those people are iPad Pro users.

01:26:39 ◼   ► I think the question, the real question is,

01:26:41 ◼   ► is the 13 inch iPad Pro $1,500?

01:26:47 ◼   ► In which case, yes, they should make a 13 inch iPad Air.

01:26:50 ◼   ► I think that's my answer.

01:26:52 ◼   ► They're going, the iPad Pros keep going further

01:26:54 ◼   ► and further away from the iPad Air.

01:26:56 ◼   ► There's more need to have a more affordable

01:26:58 ◼   ► larger iPad, I think.

01:27:00 ◼   ► - On the face of it today, I say no,

01:27:03 ◼   ► but in the future where they are going to make that

01:27:07 ◼   ► a very expensive product, I think there is value to just having the larger screen, right?

01:27:13 ◼   ► In the same way that we talk about the idea of there being a 15" MacBook Air and why that

01:27:17 ◼   ► might make sense for people, a larger iPad Air at that point would make more sense for

01:27:22 ◼   ► people who don't need OLED screen etc etc etc.

01:27:33 ◼   ► Colin asks, "Have you ever tried to develop contacts

01:27:37 ◼   ► with Apple employees in an attempt to gather

01:27:39 ◼   ► insider information to create sources

01:27:42 ◼   ► like those of Mark Gurman?"

01:27:44 ◼   ► So maybe you could be in room around up.

01:27:46 ◼   ► - Mm-mm.

01:27:47 ◼   ► - And do you ever, and if you did this,

01:27:48 ◼   ► would you feel that it could harm

01:27:50 ◼   ► your overall relationship with Apple?

01:27:53 ◼   ► - Yeah, so I don't think about it anymore,

01:27:56 ◼   ► but there was a time.

01:27:58 ◼   ► When I was working in Mac world and Mac user,

01:28:01 ◼   ► there was this definite sense that there were the people

01:28:05 ◼   ► who reported on, who cultivated rumors and leaks

01:28:10 ◼   ► and got people inside with knowledge to talk,

01:28:13 ◼   ► and that it was very difficult.

01:28:15 ◼   ► Those people were over here,

01:28:17 ◼   ► and the people who were like writing reviews

01:28:20 ◼   ► and things like that are over on the other side.

01:28:22 ◼   ► There was always this feeling like you could do one

01:28:25 ◼   ► or the other, but you couldn't really do both.

01:28:27 ◼   ► And part of that was the threat at least

01:28:32 ◼   ► that Apple would not talk to you

01:28:34 ◼   ► if you were a breaker of rumors.

01:28:36 ◼   ► In fact, I remember being surprised

01:28:38 ◼   ► when I saw Mark Gurman at an Apple event at one point.

01:28:41 ◼   ► And he's kinda, sometimes he's there, sometimes he's not.

01:28:44 ◼   ► But I don't know if that's the case anymore.

01:28:49 ◼   ► And the reason that my answer here is basically not lately

01:28:54 ◼   ► is I am, I mean, I can't answer for you, Mike,

01:28:58 ◼   ► but I am one person.

01:28:59 ◼   ► I have, I am very limited in what I am capable

01:29:03 ◼   ► of doing for my job because I am a one human being.

01:29:07 ◼   ► And not only would this require a lot of effort,

01:29:11 ◼   ► which would mean I would have to stop other parts of my job

01:29:13 ◼   ► because I'd basically be, you know,

01:29:15 ◼   ► essentially competing with Mark Gurman.

01:29:17 ◼   ► But now Six Colors is no longer a, you know,

01:29:22 ◼   ► the site that it is, whatever it is now,

01:29:24 ◼   ► It is now a, you know, a Apple rumor site and I'm limited.

01:29:29 ◼   ► So I'm doing less stuff.

01:29:31 ◼   ► I have to focus on this thing.

01:29:34 ◼   ► Mark Gurman's already doing it.

01:29:36 ◼   ► And quite frankly, I'm kind of happy with the mix of stuff

01:29:38 ◼   ► that I have in my life right now in terms of podcasts

01:29:41 ◼   ► and writing and stuff like that.

01:29:43 ◼   ► And it would, so I'm not in this era,

01:29:46 ◼   ► I'm not as worried about, oh no,

01:29:47 ◼   ► Apple's not gonna send me PR, you know,

01:29:50 ◼   ► review units of reviews if I report about their secrets,

01:29:55 ◼   ► although that might be true, I don't know.

01:29:57 ◼   ► It's more like, it's like I could write about new apps

01:30:02 ◼   ► all the time, like Max Stories, but I don't.

01:30:07 ◼   ► I don't have the time.

01:30:08 ◼   ► They do a great job with that.

01:30:09 ◼   ► I'm doing other stuff.

01:30:11 ◼   ► I'm okay doing my other stuff, right?

01:30:14 ◼   ► It would require me to stop doing other work that I'm doing,

01:30:17 ◼   ► and I think the mix is pretty decent right now.

01:30:19 ◼   ► So for me personally, that's the answer.

01:30:22 ◼   ► Plus also I'd say in the longer run,

01:30:25 ◼   ► that is a job I could have tried to do

01:30:27 ◼   ► when I was earlier on in my career

01:30:30 ◼   ► to cultivate sources and break news and stuff like that.

01:30:33 ◼   ► And I chose a different path in terms of being,

01:30:38 ◼   ► I don't know, a happier person.

01:30:41 ◼   ► That kind of stuff did not make me happy.

01:30:44 ◼   ► It was not the stuff that made me like working.

01:30:48 ◼   ► And so I chose to specialize in other things.

01:30:50 ◼   ► So, you know, when I left Macworld and was out on my own

01:30:55 ◼   ► and doing this stuff, you know, you do that thing

01:30:57 ◼   ► for a year after you, at least a year after you leave,

01:30:59 ◼   ► where every time there's a real job that gets posted,

01:31:02 ◼   ► you think, oh, maybe I should do that job

01:31:04 ◼   ► instead of going out on my own.

01:31:05 ◼   ► And it takes a long, for me, it took a long time

01:31:08 ◼   ► to stop the reflex action of part of my brain saying,

01:31:11 ◼   ► you should get a real job.

01:31:13 ◼   ► Some of the jobs that came up right after I left

01:31:14 ◼   ► were like working the bureau at the New York Times,

01:31:17 ◼   ► covering Apple, working the bureau at the Wall Street Journal covering Apple. And I

01:31:21 ◼   ► kept thinking, could I do that job? And I thought, I don't know if they'd hire me to