Upgrade

00:00:00 ◼   ► [

00:00:08 ◼   ► "The

00:00:08 ◼   ► From Relay FM, this is Upgrade, episode 453.

00:00:12 ◼   ► Today's show is brought to you by Squarespace and FitBud.

00:00:15 ◼   ► My name is Mike Hurley and I'm joined

00:00:17 ◼   ► by my co-host in crime, Mr. Jason Snell.

00:00:20 ◼   ► Hi, Jason.

00:00:22 ◼   ► - Mike, you weren't supposed to talk about the crime.

00:00:24 ◼   ► - Whoops.

00:00:25 ◼   ► - You're not supposed to say that part out loud.

00:00:26 ◼   ► - Should we just start over again so nobody knows?

00:00:28 ◼   ► - I just, hello, perfectly legal co-host.

00:00:31 ◼   ► It is good to speak to you about perfectly legal matters.

00:00:35 ◼   ► - I have a way to get us out of this legal trouble

00:00:38 ◼   ► which is to ask you a snow talk question.

00:00:40 ◼   ► Oh, thank goodness for that.

00:00:42 ◼   ► Well, we've got the savior of the snow talk question.

00:00:44 ◼   ► This one comes from Greg. Greg submitted their question like you should

00:00:47 ◼   ► over at UpgradeFeedback.com.

00:00:49 ◼   ► If you have a question you would like to hear us open an episode of Upgrade With

00:00:54 ◼   ► so we don't talk about crimes, go to UpgradeFeedback.com.

00:00:57 ◼   ► And Greg asks, maybe this is crime related, I don't know.

00:01:01 ◼   ► Stop talking about crimes!

00:01:03 ◼   ► Sorry, I don't know why I've got it in my head today.

00:01:05 ◼   ► What do you have your iMessage keep messages setting set to?

00:01:10 ◼   ► 30 days, one year or forever?

00:01:13 ◼   ► - I feel like people who know me

00:01:16 ◼   ► would know the answer to this.

00:01:19 ◼   ► The answer is forever.

00:01:21 ◼   ► Why would it not be forever?

00:01:24 ◼   ► Why would I not keep messages forever?

00:01:26 ◼   ► Unless I was like committing crimes,

00:01:28 ◼   ► oh no, you've got me doing it now.

00:01:29 ◼   ► (laughing)

00:01:31 ◼   ► Forever is the answer, forever.

00:01:33 ◼   ► - Forever and ever and ever.

00:01:35 ◼   ► Yeah, I keep mine forever too.

00:01:37 ◼   ► I don't have all of my iMessages going back to forever,

00:01:41 ◼   ► which makes me feel like at some point,

00:01:43 ◼   ► I don't know when, but at some point,

00:01:45 ◼   ► I must have had some kind of failed device migration

00:01:47 ◼   ► or I decided to set a device hub as new.

00:01:50 ◼   ► Like my messages don't go all the way back

00:01:52 ◼   ► to the beginning of the iPhone.

00:01:54 ◼   ► Do yours?

00:01:55 ◼   ► - Oh, I have no idea.

00:01:58 ◼   ► - If you scroll to the bottom of the messages app,

00:02:00 ◼   ► mine for some reason, oh, this is even worse.

00:02:02 ◼   ► - Might only go back to July of 2022.

00:02:05 ◼   ► I don't know what happened there,

00:02:06 ◼   ► but that's my oldest message.

00:02:08 ◼   ► - I don't know.

00:02:09 ◼   ► There's messages in the cloud and when did that come in

00:02:11 ◼   ► and what's that going on?

00:02:13 ◼   ► And I mean, I don't rely on it,

00:02:16 ◼   ► but I thought it would be useful if you have search, right?

00:02:21 ◼   ► Like if you have the ability to search through that stuff,

00:02:25 ◼   ► why not keep it there, right?

00:02:26 ◼   ► And I have a lot of iCloud storage space

00:02:28 ◼   ► and it's like, it just seemed like,

00:02:30 ◼   ► look at my devices have enough space

00:02:32 ◼   ► and I just, I didn't worry about it.

00:02:33 ◼   ► No, I just scrolled back to a text message thread

00:02:36 ◼   ► with a friend and it goes back to November, 2012,

00:02:40 ◼   ► that thread.

00:02:42 ◼   ► - Oh, on my Mac, they go back way further.

00:02:44 ◼   ► I don't know what my iPhone was doing.

00:02:47 ◼   ► - I'm just looking on my iPad here.

00:02:48 ◼   ► - I just keep scrolling and they keep loading.

00:02:50 ◼   ► Maybe I didn't give my iPhone enough time to load.

00:02:53 ◼   ► - You have a time to just keep loading

00:02:55 ◼   ► further back in time. - I go 2014.

00:02:57 ◼   ► That's my earliest message that I have.

00:03:00 ◼   ► - Forever, baby, forever is the answer.

00:03:02 ◼   ► - Yeah, but I also have my sense of-

00:03:03 ◼   ► - Unless you're committing crimes.

00:03:05 ◼   ► - But even then.

00:03:06 ◼   ► - Even then?

00:03:07 ◼   ► - I don't know, maybe.

00:03:09 ◼   ► - Okay.

00:03:10 ◼   ► - Well, I've got that end-to-end encryption on it now,

00:03:12 ◼   ► so no one can get me. - Oh, I see.

00:03:13 ◼   ► I see, that's good.

00:03:14 ◼   ► Well, that's good for when you're committing crimes.

00:03:16 ◼   ► - Exactly, no one can catch me.

00:03:18 ◼   ► Can't catch me.

00:03:19 ◼   ► If you would like to send in a question

00:03:21 ◼   ► to help us open the show, to go to upgradefeedback.com,

00:03:24 ◼   ► and you can select Snail Talk right there

00:03:27 ◼   ► and send us a question.

00:03:28 ◼   ► I do wanna say, since introducing

00:03:30 ◼   ► those categories, I wanna thank the Upgradients, Jason,

00:03:33 ◼   ► because every Upgradient sends in feedback

00:03:35 ◼   ► having ticked one of those boxes.

00:03:37 ◼   ► - Oh, that's good for you. - Which you don't need to do,

00:03:39 ◼   ► but I appreciate that you do,

00:03:41 ◼   ► 'cause it makes my job so much easier

00:03:42 ◼   ► when I'm going through the-- - We appreciate it.

00:03:44 ◼   ► - What I would say is hundreds of pieces of feedback

00:03:46 ◼   ► that we get per episode,

00:03:47 ◼   ► which I'm also very appreciative of.

00:03:50 ◼   ► I like that people have things

00:03:51 ◼   ► that they want us to talk about,

00:03:52 ◼   ► things that they want us to say.

00:03:54 ◼   ► That would actually start with follow-up.

00:03:56 ◼   ► So Paul wrote in to say,

00:03:58 ◼   ► Mike stated that the original iPhone did not have a killer app, but it did and was even mentioned by

00:04:03 ◼   ► Steve Jobs in the 2007 keynote. Steve said making phone calls was the killer app.

00:04:08 ◼   ► I will tell you Steve Jobs was wrong. That's what I'll say.

00:04:13 ◼   ► Yeah, it was not that. No, it was, he could say whatever. Like, I think that there's, there,

00:04:20 ◼   ► there are books that have been written and podcasts that have been recorded entirely on

00:04:24 ◼   ► on the subject of that keynote, right?

00:04:25 ◼   ► Like that keynote is really interesting,

00:04:27 ◼   ► but it's not right, right?

00:04:31 ◼   ► Like it's one of the great moments of tech keynote history

00:04:34 ◼   ► and tech and product introduction history,

00:04:36 ◼   ► but it's not right, right?

00:04:38 ◼   ► Like it is like the breakthrough internet communicator

00:04:42 ◼   ► is the big moment and that's the one that falls flat.

00:04:46 ◼   ► Whereas touch screen iPod and phone or whatever,

00:04:53 ◼   ► like things that don't matter got a response

00:04:57 ◼   ► and the things that did matter didn't.

00:04:58 ◼   ► And I think Steve is trying to justify in that keynote

00:05:01 ◼   ► why you would use this to replace your phone.

00:05:04 ◼   ► But what a killer app is,

00:05:05 ◼   ► is like the thing that makes the product huge.

00:05:07 ◼   ► The thing where the product finds what it's meant for.

00:05:11 ◼   ► And making phone calls is not what the iPhone was meant for

00:05:14 ◼   ► and it's not what made the iPhone successful

00:05:16 ◼   ► because it can't be a killer app

00:05:19 ◼   ► if literally every product in the category does it.

00:05:22 ◼   ► and then one product comes to differentiate itself

00:05:24 ◼   ► from the category, right?

00:05:25 ◼   ► Like logically, that would make it not a killer app.

00:05:28 ◼   ► It's table stakes, right?

00:05:30 ◼   ► It's the lowest common denominator of making phone calls.

00:05:33 ◼   ► So I would argue that as we did last time,

00:05:38 ◼   ► respectfully to Paul, the app store itself

00:05:42 ◼   ► might have been the killer app and the apps that it,

00:05:45 ◼   ► and if there was something on the original iPhone

00:05:47 ◼   ► that I would consider arguably a killer app,

00:05:50 ◼   ► it would be Safari because it was a full web browser

00:05:53 ◼   ► on a phone for the first time.

00:05:55 ◼   ► - Changed everything. - All of the other

00:05:56 ◼   ► web browsers back then were crappy.

00:05:58 ◼   ► However, Mike, as you pointed out,

00:06:00 ◼   ► they didn't have an app store then, so they were very,

00:06:03 ◼   ► Steve Jobs was really quick to be like,

00:06:05 ◼   ► yeah, sweet solution, you can save web apps

00:06:08 ◼   ► to the home screen.

00:06:10 ◼   ► But that actually wasn't the killer app in the end.

00:06:13 ◼   ► It was the app store that did it.

00:06:16 ◼   ► - I mean, I could even argue that the killer app today

00:06:19 ◼   ► still with Safari, like having the ability to access

00:06:22 ◼   ► the fold web on a device that's in your pocket,

00:06:26 ◼   ► I think is truly the breakthrough part.

00:06:29 ◼   ► And I think they knew that.

00:06:30 ◼   ► I do not believe that Steve Jobs thought

00:06:33 ◼   ► that the killer app of the iPhone was making calls.

00:06:35 ◼   ► He was just trying to say that like, look,

00:06:39 ◼   ► this phone does like a lot of weird stuff, right?

00:06:41 ◼   ► But it can still just make the phone calls

00:06:43 ◼   ► that you think you want.

00:06:45 ◼   ► - Yeah, he's reassuring people

00:06:47 ◼   ► that the phone, that it's a phone and it works like a phone

00:06:52 ◼   ► and it's not too weird, right?

00:06:53 ◼   ► I mean, I do think that a lot of this was like,

00:06:55 ◼   ► this is not too weird.

00:06:56 ◼   ► Don't worry, it's still a phone.

00:06:58 ◼   ► You can just use it 'cause number one rule of iPhone

00:07:01 ◼   ► was get people to replace their phone, right?

00:07:05 ◼   ► Get people to replace or for the first time add a cell phone.

00:07:09 ◼   ► That was job one.

00:07:11 ◼   ► And so you had to make the point

00:07:12 ◼   ► that it did texting and calls, right?

00:07:15 ◼   ► Like as job one.

00:07:16 ◼   ► And then that's why the app was SMS, right?

00:07:18 ◼   ► Like at that point, the app was literally called SMS

00:07:21 ◼   ► for texting because they wanted to reassure people

00:07:24 ◼   ► it's a phone, it's okay, it's a phone and an iPod

00:07:28 ◼   ► and an internet communication device.

00:07:31 ◼   ► But that's not the same as saying it's a killer app.

00:07:34 ◼   ► - So we also got some feedback from Tim on the headset

00:07:40 ◼   ► who says, "You've commented that it makes sense for Apple

00:07:43 ◼   ► to ship a headset so they can start iterating on it

00:07:46 ◼   ► and see how people use it.

00:07:47 ◼   ► On the other hand, Apple is famously the company

00:07:50 ◼   ► that says a thousand no's for every yes

00:07:52 ◼   ► and waits until it feels like the product

00:07:54 ◼   ► has real value to add.

00:07:55 ◼   ► Why do you think the headset is different

00:07:57 ◼   ► from say a foldable phone or any other new tech

00:08:00 ◼   ► they may have in development?

00:08:02 ◼   ► What is it about the headset that means it should be

00:08:04 ◼   ► a yes right now instead of a no?

00:08:06 ◼   ► - By the way, a thousand no's for every yes

00:08:09 ◼   ► was like 10 years ago at least.

00:08:11 ◼   ► So it's not as if every Apple ad says a thousand no's

00:08:16 ◼   ► for every yes.

00:08:17 ◼   ► I would say that in a self-serving video a decade ago,

00:08:22 ◼   ► they did that.

00:08:23 ◼   ► But like, I'll take that as it is.

00:08:26 ◼   ► And I will say, I feel like it's about the journey

00:08:29 ◼   ► more than it is, you know,

00:08:31 ◼   ► they're trying to get somewhere with this.

00:08:34 ◼   ► So there is an ulterior motive

00:08:36 ◼   ► and it could be skewing what they're trying to do,

00:08:38 ◼   ► but they're trying to get somewhere with this.

00:08:40 ◼   ► They're trying to get to a place where there's a product

00:08:45 ◼   ► that replaces the iPhone and make sure that if that happens,

00:08:50 ◼   ► if that happens, that they're the ones who are there

00:08:52 ◼   ► competing for it.

00:08:53 ◼   ► I think that's the number one reason this product exists.

00:08:55 ◼   ► I will also say, so they need to start iterating on it,

00:08:58 ◼   ► but I'll also say that they probably could have shipped

00:09:02 ◼   ► this what, four years ago, three years ago, two years ago,

00:09:04 ◼   ► one year ago, and they still haven't shipped it.

00:09:06 ◼   ► And hopefully maybe they'll ship it this year.

00:09:08 ◼   ► I mean, there's still a question about that

00:09:09 ◼   ► that we'll get to in a little bit, maybe.

00:09:12 ◼   ► But so I would say there have been many thousands of nos,

00:09:15 ◼   ► clearly already, right?

00:09:17 ◼   ► So they have had many thousands of nos to get to a yes.

00:09:21 ◼   ► - I mean, we talk about them, right?

00:09:22 ◼   ► Like the idea that it would be attached to a Mac or a box,

00:09:27 ◼   ► or it would talk to your phone.

00:09:30 ◼   ► Like these were things that they did,

00:09:32 ◼   ► like the processing would come from your phone

00:09:34 ◼   ► and it would just stream information from the phone,

00:09:37 ◼   ► which it doesn't seem like it's doing either.

00:09:38 ◼   ► Like there have been, as you I think rightly point out,

00:09:42 ◼   ► there have been thousands of no's.

00:09:44 ◼   ► But again, it's like, we're not,

00:09:46 ◼   ► this isn't like doing something, some new drastic thing,

00:09:50 ◼   ► like a foldable phone in that sense.

00:09:52 ◼   ► It is more like what they already did with the Apple Watch

00:09:54 ◼   ► of like, you get to a certain part

00:09:57 ◼   ► where the technology is good enough,

00:10:00 ◼   ► and you've got to see how people want it,

00:10:02 ◼   ► how they want to use it, how they're going to use it,

00:10:04 ◼   ► how developers are going to use it.

00:10:05 ◼   ► Like you've got to take a moment

00:10:08 ◼   ► where you take a leap of faith,

00:10:11 ◼   ► which if you go back to what we just spoke about,

00:10:14 ◼   ► the original iPhone did not have an app store.

00:10:16 ◼   ► The original iPhone did not have an app store.

00:10:19 ◼   ► They didn't think it needed one

00:10:22 ◼   ► or they wanted not to have one.

00:10:24 ◼   ► - Or they couldn't get the app development

00:10:27 ◼   ► even internally to the point

00:10:28 ◼   ► where they could show it to anybody else,

00:10:30 ◼   ► but they decided to ship the product anyway

00:10:32 ◼   ► with a fixed number of apps on the home screen.

00:10:34 ◼   ► They chose their moment.

00:10:35 ◼   ► And you're right, there's an art to that, right?

00:10:38 ◼   ► Like, 'cause it's never, it's never the perfect moment,

00:10:41 ◼   ► because you could always do better.

00:10:43 ◼   ► So when's the moment where it's close enough

00:10:46 ◼   ► that you can ship it,

00:10:48 ◼   ► knowing that you really need to ship it

00:10:50 ◼   ► to get it to where it needs to be,

00:10:51 ◼   ► and you can't, arguably you shouldn't wait until it's done,

00:10:56 ◼   ► because it'll never be done

00:10:57 ◼   ► if it's not out there in the world,

00:10:59 ◼   ► getting beat up and criticized and used by people

00:11:03 ◼   ► who are gonna go, "Oh, why doesn't it do this?"

00:11:05 ◼   ► Or, "I really like this one thing

00:11:07 ◼   ► that you thought was an obscure thing, but it turns out is super important, and you gotta

00:11:11 ◼   ► ship it for that. So they've judged maybe that this is the right product to ship. I

00:11:17 ◼   ► was gonna write in our notes that we've argued about, but I think that that's premature.

00:11:23 ◼   ► We will all be arguing about this for the next few years, right? About whether they

00:11:29 ◼   ► were right or wrong to ship this product in terms of the timing. I would make the argument

00:11:35 ◼   ► that since they don't have a product

00:11:37 ◼   ► that can ship in volume because of the price,

00:11:40 ◼   ► and that it's not a product that appeals

00:11:45 ◼   ► to even the interested masses,

00:11:46 ◼   ► potentially based on the reports,

00:11:48 ◼   ► that it's gonna be so expensive

00:11:49 ◼   ► that they're gonna ship under a million units of this thing.

00:11:54 ◼   ► And there's a lot of spinning going on.

00:11:56 ◼   ► It's like, oh, it's like the Apple Watch,

00:11:58 ◼   ► but it seems more extreme to me than the Apple Watch.

00:12:00 ◼   ► But I could argue that this is,

00:12:03 ◼   ► since Apple seems to be a company

00:12:05 ◼   ► that's never gonna release a product

00:12:07 ◼   ► that's just for developers.

00:12:08 ◼   ► Maybe this is what a developer kit from Apple looks like,

00:12:11 ◼   ► which is this, which is we gotta ship something

00:12:14 ◼   ► and most people aren't gonna get it,

00:12:15 ◼   ► but don't worry, we're working on something else

00:12:17 ◼   ► down the line.

00:12:18 ◼   ► But I think Apple feels like they need to ship this.

00:12:23 ◼   ► What's the impetus for this, right?

00:12:26 ◼   ► It's like, oh no, is Meta eating our lunch?

00:12:27 ◼   ► I don't think that's the case,

00:12:28 ◼   ► but I do wonder if what Apple feels is like,

00:12:31 ◼   ► we've taken it maybe as far as we can really take it

00:12:34 ◼   ► without getting it into the world, number one.

00:12:37 ◼   ► And two, that they look at the competition

00:12:40 ◼   ► and they look at what Metta's doing

00:12:41 ◼   ► and they say, "We are so much better

00:12:43 ◼   ► than anything that's out there

00:12:46 ◼   ► in terms of defining this for now and for the future.

00:12:49 ◼   ► And we wanna reset the category."

00:12:51 ◼   ► Which is what the iPhone did, right?

00:12:53 ◼   ► We just say, "We are going to redefine

00:12:55 ◼   ► what this kind of product is." - And the Apple Watch.

00:12:56 ◼   ► - And yeah, and the Apple Watch, exactly right.

00:12:58 ◼   ► We're gonna set the standard.

00:13:00 ◼   ► And you know what happens after that

00:13:02 ◼   ► is that then everybody else looks at Apple and says,

00:13:04 ◼   ► "Oh, we need to do that," and then game on, right?

00:13:07 ◼   ► Then whoever it is, Google and Meta and Samsung

00:13:11 ◼   ► and whoever else is gonna go, "Oh, right, let's be like that."

00:13:16 ◼   ► And then the game is on.

00:13:18 ◼   ► But so that's my guess is that Apple feels

00:13:20 ◼   ► like they've reached a point where they can't go much further

00:13:23 ◼   ► without being turned open to the world.

00:13:26 ◼   ► And also that there's a risk in the category

00:13:29 ◼   ► sort of stagnating and that there's an opportunity

00:13:31 ◼   ► for Apple to define this category.

00:13:34 ◼   ► But again, like I said, I could argue that

00:13:38 ◼   ► this is not the right product to ship

00:13:42 ◼   ► only in the sense that it seems like a developer kit.

00:13:46 ◼   ► It seems like something that, you know,

00:13:47 ◼   ► we're basically being told, wait a year or two

00:13:50 ◼   ► for the one that people are gonna buy.

00:13:51 ◼   ► And that's troubling to me because that makes me feel

00:13:54 ◼   ► like they maybe did get it wrong a little bit.

00:13:56 ◼   ► But I understand they were under impulse,

00:13:58 ◼   ► which is we gotta get this thing out.

00:14:00 ◼   ► We gotta get it shipping.

00:14:01 ◼   ► Developers need to see it.

00:14:02 ◼   ► We need to have, because the other thing is Apple secrecy.

00:14:05 ◼   ► Apple secrecy works against itself here.

00:14:07 ◼   ► 'Cause this thing needs to be out in the open.

00:14:09 ◼   ► They need to start building a platform here.

00:14:11 ◼   ► And if they can't start building the platform

00:14:15 ◼   ► until a product is announced,

00:14:17 ◼   ► like this OS, this reality OS thing,

00:14:19 ◼   ► like if we can't start building that product in public

00:14:24 ◼   ► until we announce something, we need to announce something.

00:14:27 ◼   ► I think that there is an argument to be made

00:14:29 ◼   ► on that side too.

00:14:30 ◼   ► that it just needs to be out in the open

00:14:34 ◼   ► and people need to start picking it apart

00:14:35 ◼   ► and developers need to look at it and say,

00:14:37 ◼   ► here's what we need that you didn't provide

00:14:39 ◼   ► so that they can start making it potentially into something.

00:14:42 ◼   ► Not that they'll succeed, but like,

00:14:45 ◼   ► so that's, anyway, Tim, that is my answer about this

00:14:49 ◼   ► is that I feel like there have been a thousand no's

00:14:52 ◼   ► or several thousand no's,

00:14:53 ◼   ► but they've also reached the point where they feel like

00:14:55 ◼   ► it can't really go forward and become anything more

00:15:00 ◼   ► until it goes out the door.

00:15:01 ◼   ► But that said, it gives me pause that it seems priced,

00:15:04 ◼   ► like it's gonna be priced so high

00:15:05 ◼   ► that it's gonna be a very, very, very limited appeal.

00:15:08 ◼   ► And I feel like there's some danger in that,

00:15:10 ◼   ► but at the same time,

00:15:12 ◼   ► they wanna define what this category can be.

00:15:14 ◼   ► And this sounds like they didn't skimp on features

00:15:17 ◼   ► in order to get there.

00:15:19 ◼   ► So it'll be fascinating to watch what happens,

00:15:21 ◼   ► but those are the dynamics of play, I think.

00:15:25 ◼   ► - Before we move on,

00:15:25 ◼   ► I want to put something out into the world

00:15:28 ◼   ► that I'm hoping the Upgradients

00:15:29 ◼   ► might be able to help me with.

00:15:30 ◼   ► So I am a stage manager user on the Mac, still am.

00:15:35 ◼   ► This is how I live my life.

00:15:38 ◼   ► Feel free to judge me as you please, but I like it.

00:15:41 ◼   ► At some point between 13.1 and 13.4,

00:15:45 ◼   ► I don't know where because I don't know what version

00:15:47 ◼   ► of macOS my MacBook Air was on before I updated to 13.4.

00:15:52 ◼   ► When you click the desktop, it shows the desktop.

00:15:57 ◼   ► I don't want this, it didn't used to do this, my MacBook Pro that I'm recording on right

00:16:03 ◼   ► now is on 13.1.

00:16:05 ◼   ► If I'm in a stage manager stage and I click the desktop, it just makes all of the windows

00:16:10 ◼   ► in front of me just non-active, it doesn't show me the desktop.

00:16:14 ◼   ► On 13.4, if I click the desktop, it shows the desktop.

00:16:17 ◼   ► I don't want it to do that and I can't find a setting to change it and I don't know why

00:16:22 ◼   ► that default behavior has changed.

00:16:24 ◼   ► And you may say to me, Mike, why do you do this?

00:16:25 ◼   ► I'll tell you why I do this.

00:16:27 ◼   ► habit like if I send a message say an iMessage or whatever I tend to click the

00:16:33 ◼   ► desktop so iMessage isn't active anymore so if somebody sends a reply it's not

00:16:36 ◼   ► going to immediately be marked as red. It's muscle memory. Muscle memory now and so

00:16:42 ◼   ► I'm finding when I'm on my MacBook Air which is what I'm doing my work all day I'm

00:16:45 ◼   ► seeing the desktop hundreds of times a day where I don't want to and so I don't

00:16:49 ◼   ► know why this has changed I don't know why the default changed and then there

00:16:54 ◼   ► was no setting.

00:16:56 ◼   ► And I also don't know why this is a thing

00:16:58 ◼   ► that people would want.

00:17:00 ◼   ► - At some point they made it so that you could see the files

00:17:03 ◼   ► on the desktop.

00:17:04 ◼   ► And the idea there was if you leave files on the desktop,

00:17:06 ◼   ► you can click on the desktop and then start a drag

00:17:09 ◼   ► or double click or whatever in order to get your files.

00:17:11 ◼   ► And I think that makes sense.

00:17:12 ◼   ► But I think this is a good question.

00:17:14 ◼   ► Like shouldn't the behavior be that if you can't see files

00:17:17 ◼   ► on the desktop, well, okay, there's two behaviors, right?

00:17:21 ◼   ► Even if you can't, well, no.

00:17:23 ◼   ► I can see files on the desktop now on 13.1.

00:17:27 ◼   ► And if I click the desktop, nothing happens,

00:17:30 ◼   ► which is what I want to happen.

00:17:31 ◼   ► - Okay, right.

00:17:33 ◼   ► So you have to make space.

00:17:35 ◼   ► Well, that's weird, right?

00:17:36 ◼   ► 'Cause like either you need access to the desktop

00:17:38 ◼   ► or you don't, I would say, right?

00:17:40 ◼   ► Like, so what they're doing is they're saying

00:17:42 ◼   ► you can make space for the files on the desktop

00:17:44 ◼   ► so you can see them in either mode.

00:17:47 ◼   ► But you could argue that maybe it should just be like,

00:17:49 ◼   ► either you can see the desktop stuff or you can't.

00:17:52 ◼   ► And so it's either that or they should add a setting

00:17:56 ◼   ► that basically says ignore clicks on the desktop.

00:18:00 ◼   ► I don't know.

00:18:01 ◼   ► - Or just like when I click the desktop,

00:18:03 ◼   ► show me the desktop, like that should be the setting

00:18:05 ◼   ► and then it's just on or off.

00:18:07 ◼   ► You know?

00:18:08 ◼   ► - Mm-hmm.

00:18:08 ◼   ► - That's what the setting should be, I feel like.

00:18:11 ◼   ► But it's just very strange to me

00:18:12 ◼   ► to change the default like that

00:18:13 ◼   ► and there's just no way to change it back.

00:18:15 ◼   ► It's just impossible to change it back.

00:18:16 ◼   ► - Yeah, file feedback on that one.

00:18:19 ◼   ► - Well, I'm doing it verbally

00:18:20 ◼   ► to make sure I'm not missing something.

00:18:22 ◼   ► - Okay.

00:18:23 ◼   ► - And then if-- - So upgrading and file a feedback.

00:18:25 ◼   ► - No, if I hear nothing from people about this,

00:18:27 ◼   ► then I will file a feedback.

00:18:29 ◼   ► 'Cause that could be something I'm missing

00:18:30 ◼   ► because I can't understand how to use

00:18:32 ◼   ► the Settings app anymore, I can't.

00:18:35 ◼   ► - That's fair.

00:18:36 ◼   ► - And so-- - You can.

00:18:37 ◼   ► - Nobody.

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00:20:56 ◼   ► Hi Tim.

00:20:57 ◼   ► Hi Tim, I have good news for you.

00:20:59 ◼   ► As I said when I appeared on your upgrade program last week, we had to delay it a little bit,

00:21:05 ◼   ► but as I said last week, we did announce WWC, it's coming back, the same time that it always

00:21:13 ◼   ► is, so enjoy.

00:21:14 ◼   ► Bye, Tim out.

00:21:15 ◼   ► You sound a little like Elvis, Tim.

00:21:17 ◼   ► Yeah, I was getting a little southern with Tim.

00:21:20 ◼   ► Well, Tim is southern, but I felt like I was a little more Texas there than I should be

00:21:23 ◼   ► for a guy from Alabama.

00:21:24 ◼   ► Maybe he watched the movie.

00:21:25 ◼   ► I watched that movie.

00:21:26 ◼   ► that movie, the Elvis movie?

00:21:28 ◼   ► - I did too.

00:21:28 ◼   ► - It was a good movie.

00:21:29 ◼   ► - I liked Elvis.

00:21:30 ◼   ► It's long, but you know what?

00:21:31 ◼   ► I liked it all.

00:21:32 ◼   ► - Exactly, yeah.

00:21:33 ◼   ► It's good if the movie's long

00:21:35 ◼   ► if you like all the long movie.

00:21:36 ◼   ► It's only a problem if you don't like all the long movie.

00:21:38 ◼   ► - This is my biggest endorsement of the Elvis movie

00:21:40 ◼   ► is that there's a moment in that movie

00:21:42 ◼   ► where they blast through one portion of his life,

00:21:45 ◼   ► which is like when he's in the army and stuff.

00:21:47 ◼   ► And I was actually a little disappointed.

00:21:48 ◼   ► I'm like, "Oh, but why don't you talk about the army

00:21:50 ◼   ► "a little bit more?"

00:21:51 ◼   ► And when you're watching a 90,000 hour long movie

00:21:53 ◼   ► and you're like, "I wish it was a little bit longer,"

00:21:56 ◼   ► you're probably enjoying that movie.

00:21:57 ◼   ► So yeah, I liked it.

00:21:58 ◼   ► Anyway, that was, yes. - Austin Butler was

00:22:00 ◼   ► robbed of Best Actor, that's all I'm gonna say.

00:22:01 ◼   ► - Thank you very much, this is Tim.

00:22:03 ◼   ► - That was awesome.

00:22:04 ◼   ► - Now listen, now listen, Mike.

00:22:06 ◼   ► Things are gonna be, I don't know what I'm doing.

00:22:08 ◼   ► I don't know what to do. - WWDC is not all shook up

00:22:10 ◼   ► at all, it's basically the same.

00:22:13 ◼   ► June 5th to 9th, there's gonna be a special event

00:22:16 ◼   ► at Apple Park on the 5th, which is gonna encompass,

00:22:19 ◼   ► this is like a busy day.

00:22:21 ◼   ► Like if you go to, if you're a developer

00:22:23 ◼   ► and you go to that special event,

00:22:24 ◼   ► That is a busy old day.

00:22:26 ◼   ► You've got the keynote in the morning,

00:22:28 ◼   ► State of the Union, and the Apple Design Awards Ceremony

00:22:31 ◼   ► all on June 5th.

00:22:33 ◼   ► It's just gonna be a busy old time,

00:22:35 ◼   ► but it's gonna be again at Apple Park.

00:22:36 ◼   ► I think we basically spoke about this,

00:22:38 ◼   ► that our expectation was imagine last year,

00:22:41 ◼   ► but maybe a little bit more involved,

00:22:43 ◼   ► and I still think there will be some more to come

00:22:45 ◼   ► because they kind of talk about that on the page,

00:22:47 ◼   ► like keep your eye on this page,

00:22:49 ◼   ► and also more organized in that we know well in advance

00:22:53 ◼   ► that it's gonna be a bigger affair, I think,

00:22:57 ◼   ► on the June the 5th, and things just seem

00:22:59 ◼   ► to be a little bit more like, hey, we're doing this thing,

00:23:02 ◼   ► and we know what we're doing, and here it is.

00:23:04 ◼   ► And you have until April 4th, which if you're listening

00:23:06 ◼   ► to this and the day it comes out, is tomorrow.

00:23:08 ◼   ► So it's a very short timeline to put your application in.

00:23:12 ◼   ► And they've got a bunch of ways in which you can put

00:23:14 ◼   ► in an application.

00:23:16 ◼   ► They put out the imagery too, which--

00:23:19 ◼   ► - You're submitting an application to come,

00:23:20 ◼   ► not like an app.

00:23:22 ◼   ► - Yeah.

00:23:23 ◼   ► store right? Yeah. You say application, I mean it could be either one. Well, if you

00:23:28 ◼   ► are one of the student Swift challenge people then it's kind of both. I guess you do have

00:23:31 ◼   ► to send in your app right? It's both. It's an application and an application. Can I make

00:23:36 ◼   ► a prediction? I would love it. This is, I mean, we will, if we don't learn anything

00:23:41 ◼   ► between now and our draft, because we should say we were doing some scheduling planning

00:23:45 ◼   ► for late May, because I'm going to take a little trip on Memorial Day weekend, and Mike,

00:23:51 ◼   ► response was, "Oh, that's the draft."

00:23:54 ◼   ► We know months in advance.

00:23:56 ◼   ► - Which is beautiful.

00:23:57 ◼   ► - When the upgrade draft is going to be.

00:23:58 ◼   ► - This is what it always used to be like.

00:24:00 ◼   ► - I know, right?

00:24:01 ◼   ► It's luxurious now though, it feels very luxurious.

00:24:03 ◼   ► So we'll pick this if we don't know

00:24:07 ◼   ► by the time the draft happens,

00:24:08 ◼   ► but I'm gonna make just an early,

00:24:10 ◼   ► off the top of my head prediction here,

00:24:12 ◼   ► which is I think they're going to take the developers

00:24:16 ◼   ► to where we were last year, which is Cafe Max,

00:24:20 ◼   ► all wide open, lots of seats, and all the developers

00:24:23 ◼   ► are gonna be there in front of the big screen

00:24:25 ◼   ► watching the event.

00:24:27 ◼   ► And I think they're gonna take the press

00:24:29 ◼   ► to the Steve Jobs Theater.

00:24:31 ◼   ► - Now, Mike Hurley would like that,

00:24:33 ◼   ► because I'm hoping that I get, I've booked my travel,

00:24:37 ◼   ► like I'm going to WWDC.

00:24:40 ◼   ► I am not applying to do the developer thing,

00:24:43 ◼   ► 'cause I'm not one, and I'm hoping that an invitation

00:24:45 ◼   ► will get extended to me, like it did last time.

00:24:48 ◼   ► And that would be great if it was the case,

00:24:49 ◼   ► 'cause I would quite like to go to the Steve Jobs Theater.

00:24:52 ◼   ► - Mm-hmm.

00:24:53 ◼   ► Yeah, I mean, they could do it exactly like last year,

00:24:55 ◼   ► but I'll remind you,

00:24:56 ◼   ► the iPhone event last year was in the Steve Jobs Theater,

00:24:59 ◼   ► where they played the videos,

00:25:01 ◼   ► and then we came back out and there was a hands-on area,

00:25:03 ◼   ► like the old days, except nobody on stage,

00:25:05 ◼   ► except an intro from Tim,

00:25:07 ◼   ► but then they just rolled the video.

00:25:09 ◼   ► So it would not surprise me at all

00:25:12 ◼   ► if they bifurcated this and they had PR

00:25:15 ◼   ► doing Steve Jobs Theater with the press,

00:25:18 ◼   ► and they had developer relations doing Cafe Max

00:25:21 ◼   ► with the people who won the developer thing,

00:25:23 ◼   ► which also means that there'd be more room for developers.

00:25:27 ◼   ► - Yeah. - Right?

00:25:28 ◼   ► And they could still stage there.

00:25:30 ◼   ► I mean, it's extra complexity to do two different locations

00:25:33 ◼   ► inside Apple Park, but I think they could probably do it.

00:25:35 ◼   ► In fact, where you come in at the Tantau,

00:25:37 ◼   ► so across the street for those who have been there,

00:25:40 ◼   ► this might help you, but like across the street

00:25:42 ◼   ► from the Apple Store that's at Apple Park,

00:25:44 ◼   ► 'cause the Apple Store at Apple Park is not at Apple Park,

00:25:46 ◼   ► it's across the street from Apple Park.

00:25:48 ◼   ► You can see it from there.

00:25:49 ◼   ► That's all you get, everybody.

00:25:50 ◼   ► That's all you get.

00:25:51 ◼   ► Enjoy this AR Apple Park.

00:25:53 ◼   ► - The viewing platform that they have at the Apple store.

00:25:56 ◼   ► You can't see all of Apple Park.

00:25:59 ◼   ► Like it's not possible because it's so large.

00:26:01 ◼   ► - It's huge. - You can't like look at it

00:26:03 ◼   ► and see all like the entire--

00:26:05 ◼   ► - They need a very tall building for that.

00:26:08 ◼   ► And there's height restrictions there.

00:26:09 ◼   ► Anyway, so across the street from that,

00:26:12 ◼   ► across Tantow is like a,

00:26:16 ◼   ► a gate almost, but it's like a building.

00:26:19 ◼   ► It's like a little glass reception area with gates.

00:26:24 ◼   ► And you pass through there,

00:26:27 ◼   ► if you're going onto the campus as a civilian, as I have,

00:26:31 ◼   ► and then it's a very natural bifurcation.

00:26:35 ◼   ► In fact, the building even has two sides.

00:26:37 ◼   ► So you could even like bifurcate entry to left and right.

00:26:41 ◼   ► But when you pass through, if you go to the right,

00:26:43 ◼   ► you go to the ring.

00:26:44 ◼   ► And if you go to the left, you go to Steve Jobs Theater.

00:26:47 ◼   ► So it would be very straightforward for them

00:26:50 ◼   ► to build up essentially two different versions of the event

00:26:53 ◼   ► for press and for developers.

00:26:56 ◼   ► The only argument against this that I would say,

00:26:58 ◼   ► well, there's the complexity argument.

00:27:00 ◼   ► The other argument against it would be

00:27:02 ◼   ► that Apple really does enjoy coverage

00:27:05 ◼   ► of the developers being excited.

00:27:07 ◼   ► And if you remove the press from that,

00:27:10 ◼   ► you don't get that part of it.

00:27:12 ◼   ► But especially if this is a really important product,

00:27:17 ◼   ► you know, product release or whatever they're doing,

00:27:20 ◼   ► product announcement for the headset,

00:27:22 ◼   ► then I can see the benefit of pouring the press

00:27:25 ◼   ► into Steve Jobs Theater and then pouring the developers

00:27:27 ◼   ► into the other side.

00:27:29 ◼   ► So I'm just gonna throw that out there as a,

00:27:30 ◼   ► if it's not a prediction, it's a possibility

00:27:33 ◼   ► that they might actually have us in two different places

00:27:35 ◼   ► on the Apple Park campus, but we'll see, we'll see.

00:27:38 ◼   ► I'm curious because we can talk about WWDC last year

00:27:41 ◼   ► as the model, but they also did do that iPhone event.

00:27:44 ◼   ► And that was in the theater.

00:27:45 ◼   ► So I don't know.

00:27:46 ◼   ► - Probably the combination,

00:27:47 ◼   ► I actually, that makes sense,

00:27:49 ◼   ► this is the combination of two, right?

00:27:51 ◼   ► Where like the model being that like,

00:27:53 ◼   ► there will be people inside of Apple Park, right?

00:27:56 ◼   ► Like that's large.

00:27:58 ◼   ► Where everybody goes.

00:28:00 ◼   ► - At large, now that sounds like crime is happening.

00:28:04 ◼   ► They're at large, inside Apple Park.

00:28:07 ◼   ► - That's wild.

00:28:08 ◼   ► The imagery is out.

00:28:10 ◼   ► imagery is interesting. It's a lot of colored circles. I saw the Halide camera app tweet

00:28:17 ◼   ► something I just enjoyed, which was the WWDC invite resembles what is called a pancake

00:28:21 ◼   ► lens array, which is often used in VR goggles. That's fun.

00:28:24 ◼   ► Yes. Yes. It's also a rainbow arch like the arch that's in the middle of Apple Park. But

00:28:28 ◼   ► yes, maybe this means something. The visuals are cool. But what I'll say about

00:28:33 ◼   ► the visuals. For me, I feel like the last many years of WWDC, there's been a design

00:28:40 ◼   ► language to the visuals which could be applied across a bunch of media. This feels less so.

00:28:47 ◼   ► This feels like it would be more complicated. You know, when they did the Memoji before,

00:28:52 ◼   ► they did the neon emoji thing, and neon Memoji thing, and they've done a bunch of stuff over

00:28:58 ◼   ► the years where it feels like they could take that design language and it would be easily

00:29:01 ◼   ► applied to things. They have two versions of it. They have one which is like an arch

00:29:07 ◼   ► and one which is like a visual representation of Apple Park in the style. And the Swift

00:29:14 ◼   ► student challenge has kind of got this look to it. It's got that kind of like bubbled

00:29:18 ◼   ► oil and water kind of vibe.

00:29:21 ◼   ► And in the past, this art has suggested the art design for the conference as a whole,

00:29:30 ◼   ► as they, it echoes through everything.

00:29:32 ◼   ► So we'll see if this carries through

00:29:33 ◼   ► with all their other materials,

00:29:34 ◼   ► everything that's on slides, the whole, you know,

00:29:36 ◼   ► the whole thing they do.

00:29:38 ◼   ► - You put something in our show notes that I think-

00:29:41 ◼   ► - I did.

00:29:42 ◼   ► - Meant that you were pretty upset, which is-

00:29:44 ◼   ► - Yeah, I'm fired up, Mike.

00:29:46 ◼   ► I'm fired up.

00:29:46 ◼   ► - I figured.

00:29:47 ◼   ► I will read from a Yahoo Finance article.

00:29:51 ◼   ► General Motors plans to phase out Apple CarPlay

00:29:55 ◼   ► and Android Auto technology,

00:29:57 ◼   ► shifting instead to built-in infotainment systems developed through Google for future

00:30:02 ◼   ► electric vehicles. Buyers of GM EVs with the new system will get access to Google Maps

00:30:07 ◼   ► and Assistant, a voice command system at no extra cost for eight years, GM said. GM said

00:30:12 ◼   ► the future infotainment systems will also offer applications such as Spotify, Audible

00:30:17 ◼   ► and others.

00:30:18 ◼   ► A couple of quotes from people at GM. "We don't want to design these features in a

00:30:23 ◼   ► in a way that they are dependent on a person

00:30:25 ◼   ► having a cell phone,

00:30:27 ◼   ► and we do believe there are subscription revenue

00:30:30 ◼   ► opportunities for us.

00:30:31 ◼   ► So that second one is why they're doing this.

00:30:33 ◼   ► That first one is bananas.

00:30:35 ◼   ► Who buys an electric car in 2023

00:30:38 ◼   ► and doesn't own a cell phone?

00:30:41 ◼   ► - So look, I will point people back

00:30:43 ◼   ► to the upgrade verticals.

00:30:45 ◼   ► Last summer, I talked to Sam Abu El-Samed,

00:30:47 ◼   ► about who's a car industry expert and an upgradian,

00:30:50 ◼   ► about this.

00:30:51 ◼   ► And the truth is you can't have a car

00:30:53 ◼   ► that can't be operated without a cell phone, right?

00:30:56 ◼   ► Because there are lots of scenarios.

00:30:58 ◼   ► You might lose your cell phone.

00:30:59 ◼   ► You might have somebody borrow your car, right?

00:31:01 ◼   ► You can't not.

00:31:05 ◼   ► But to have it be sort of like,

00:31:07 ◼   ► well, we have to build an entire thing

00:31:10 ◼   ► and block everybody's phone interface

00:31:13 ◼   ► in order to make it all safe is, it's BS.

00:31:16 ◼   ► Subscription revenue opportunities,

00:31:17 ◼   ► I'll point out GM is also the creator of OnStar,

00:31:20 ◼   ► which is an old system where they charge you a monthly fee

00:31:23 ◼   ► in order to have like a cellular connection

00:31:26 ◼   ► and be able to call for help

00:31:27 ◼   ► and it had a GPS and all that.

00:31:28 ◼   ► Like they're very good at the monetizing of people

00:31:31 ◼   ► over time with their cars.

00:31:32 ◼   ► So that's definitely going on here.

00:31:35 ◼   ► I'll tell you what I'm not mad about

00:31:37 ◼   ► is that they're apparently basing this on Android Automotive

00:31:40 ◼   ► because that's fine.

00:31:41 ◼   ► Android Automotive is a low level thing as the story says.

00:31:47 ◼   ► - Which is, it's not Android Auto.

00:31:49 ◼   ► They are different things, which is always confusing.

00:31:53 ◼   ► - And they're not gonna support Android Auto,

00:31:55 ◼   ► which is also bananas.

00:31:56 ◼   ► It's Android automotive based,

00:31:57 ◼   ► so it's open source with Google stuff on top of it.

00:32:00 ◼   ► And it's a low level thing that's built into a car.

00:32:02 ◼   ► It's not mirroring from your device.

00:32:05 ◼   ► It's built into the car.

00:32:07 ◼   ► I like the fact that they say,

00:32:09 ◼   ► at no extra cost for eight years,

00:32:11 ◼   ► that's a suggestion that they're building in, I guess,

00:32:14 ◼   ► some cellular data service

00:32:16 ◼   ► that you will just get for eight years

00:32:18 ◼   ► when you buy your car,

00:32:19 ◼   ► which is good, that it will have navigation.

00:32:22 ◼   ► That's good, right?

00:32:23 ◼   ► Like everybody really does rely

00:32:25 ◼   ► on essentially internet navigation.

00:32:29 ◼   ► And so to have that for eight years when you buy your car,

00:32:31 ◼   ► I think is a good, without them having to upsell you

00:32:33 ◼   ► or saying, sorry, your in-car navigation now doesn't work,

00:32:36 ◼   ► especially since they're gonna integrate it

00:32:38 ◼   ► with presumably self-navigation features of various kinds.

00:32:42 ◼   ► Okay, my problem, oh, and by the way,

00:32:45 ◼   ► the other part that made me mad is

00:32:47 ◼   ► they will offer other applications,

00:32:48 ◼   ► such as Spotify, Audible and other services.

00:32:51 ◼   ► Okay, here's the thing.

00:32:53 ◼   ► So GM's basically saying, look, don't worry about it.

00:32:56 ◼   ► We're gonna have all the same stuff

00:32:57 ◼   ► that's on your smartphones in our app platform.

00:33:00 ◼   ► So don't worry about it.

00:33:01 ◼   ► It's gonna be fine.

00:33:03 ◼   ► This is frustrating because first off,

00:33:06 ◼   ► the arrogance of this whole move, right?

00:33:07 ◼   ► 'Cause this is, and this is not the first, right?

00:33:10 ◼   ► Because there are other companies that are like this too.

00:33:12 ◼   ► They're saying, look, we, your car company,

00:33:14 ◼   ► are gonna be the ones who build the software for your car.

00:33:17 ◼   ► It's just gonna be us again.

00:33:18 ◼   ► I know there was that brief moment

00:33:20 ◼   ► where your cell phone operating system platform owner

00:33:24 ◼   ► was building the great interface

00:33:26 ◼   ► for your infotainment system,

00:33:27 ◼   ► but we don't like that, we want it back.

00:33:29 ◼   ► So we're gonna build it.

00:33:30 ◼   ► But don't worry, it'll be best in class.

00:33:32 ◼   ► Everybody's gonna be not falling over themselves

00:33:34 ◼   ► to build an app for the GM EV platform.

00:33:39 ◼   ► They're all gonna be there.

00:33:42 ◼   ► And I think to myself, well, like I use Overcast for podcasts

00:33:45 ◼   ► that's not gonna be there.

00:33:47 ◼   ► I use Apple Music, not Spotify.

00:33:48 ◼   ► Is that gonna be there?

00:33:50 ◼   ► And the larger point is like,

00:33:53 ◼   ► I can get behind the idea that, well, look,

00:33:55 ◼   ► for the best experience,

00:33:56 ◼   ► and if you're using our auto navigation,

00:33:58 ◼   ► you really ought to use our navigation system,

00:34:01 ◼   ► which is based on Google Maps.

00:34:02 ◼   ► It's like, great, fine.

00:34:04 ◼   ► And Google Assistant.

00:34:05 ◼   ► That's all fine.

00:34:07 ◼   ► But to block CarPlay and Android Auto entirely,

00:34:12 ◼   ► not only is that frustrating because like,

00:34:15 ◼   ► I feel like me and like everybody else in the world,

00:34:19 ◼   ► our smartphone is not only a thing that we update

00:34:22 ◼   ► way more often than our car,

00:34:23 ◼   ► but like it's a very personal thing.

00:34:24 ◼   ► It's got our data, it's got our settings,

00:34:26 ◼   ► it's got our preferences, and it's got our apps.

00:34:28 ◼   ► And we choose apps based on it being

00:34:32 ◼   ► on our phone generally, right?

00:34:33 ◼   ► That's why we choose it.

00:34:35 ◼   ► And the beauty of Apple CarPlay and Android Auto

00:34:38 ◼   ► is that when I'm in a car and I've got a thing

00:34:42 ◼   ► that's playing in an audio book app of my choice

00:34:45 ◼   ► or a music app of my choice or a podcast app of my choice,

00:34:50 ◼   ► I can control it in a nice way

00:34:54 ◼   ► instead of having to reach for my phone.

00:34:56 ◼   ► And there's a let them eat cake moment in this thing too

00:34:59 ◼   ► where they say basically like,

00:35:01 ◼   ► for other things use Bluetooth.

00:35:03 ◼   ► And it's like Bluetooth sucks, right?

00:35:05 ◼   ► Like Bluetooth is,

00:35:07 ◼   ► I don't have carplay on my cars.

00:35:10 ◼   ► So, you know, this is, so I've never had that.

00:35:13 ◼   ► Jamie's got it on hers, but now that car is with her

00:35:18 ◼   ► in Oregon, so I don't get to use it anymore.

00:35:20 ◼   ► But like, and I've used it on rentals and all that,

00:35:22 ◼   ► and it's really nice.

00:35:23 ◼   ► The problem, then I come home and our cars don't have it,

00:35:27 ◼   ► is like, oh, you're listening in Overcast,

00:35:29 ◼   ► and you'd like to choose a different podcast,

00:35:31 ◼   ► or you'd like to skip a chapter, or,

00:35:34 ◼   ► and it's like, well, too bad, too bad.

00:35:37 ◼   ► Bluetooth is, Bluetooth will let you skip 30 seconds,

00:35:40 ◼   ► maybe if you're lucky.

00:35:41 ◼   ► And we might show the album art depending on

00:35:43 ◼   ► when your car was manufactured.

00:35:45 ◼   ► And then a 2012 car, it's a little shaky,

00:35:49 ◼   ► might not show the album art.

00:35:51 ◼   ► So the fact like, this is GM saying,

00:35:56 ◼   ► we're better than Apple and Google at this.

00:35:59 ◼   ► We're gonna say what apps you use in your car.

00:36:02 ◼   ► And we're gonna make, essentially what they're saying is,

00:36:06 ◼   ► our interests are more important than your interests here.

00:36:09 ◼   ► And the navigation thing is a dodge, which is, is that a GM?

00:36:12 ◼   ► I think that's not a GM.

00:36:13 ◼   ► I think that's Chrysler.

00:36:15 ◼   ► They're dodging the issue.

00:36:17 ◼   ► They're saying, "Oh, but we need it for navigation."

00:36:20 ◼   ► It's like, yeah, you don't need to prevent me

00:36:23 ◼   ► from listening to my podcast

00:36:25 ◼   ► the way I want to listen for navigation.

00:36:27 ◼   ► You don't need that.

00:36:28 ◼   ► You could very easily say,

00:36:30 ◼   ► if you wanna use our in-car navigation things,

00:36:33 ◼   ► you can't use Apple Maps on your phone.

00:36:36 ◼   ► You need to use the in-car navigation.

00:36:38 ◼   ► You could just do that and it would be fine.

00:36:41 ◼   ► But you're like, no, they must never see it.

00:36:43 ◼   ► They must never see something else.

00:36:44 ◼   ► And like, you know, so chances are,

00:36:46 ◼   ► they're basically saying, look,

00:36:47 ◼   ► do you wanna listen to podcasts and buy a GM EV in 2025?

00:36:52 ◼   ► You're gonna need to use the podcast app

00:36:53 ◼   ► that we decided was okay,

00:36:55 ◼   ► and put, that somebody put on our platform.

00:36:58 ◼   ► And otherwise you can't.

00:36:59 ◼   ► It's just so infuriating and arrogant,

00:37:03 ◼   ► because again, this is, I'll bring in Tesla and Rivian

00:37:08 ◼   ► as examples of car companies that are like,

00:37:10 ◼   ► won't do CarPlay and won't do Android Auto.

00:37:14 ◼   ► And the arrogance is sort of like, no, no, no, no, no, no,

00:37:16 ◼   ► we're the best.

00:37:17 ◼   ► Who better at designing a touch screen based

00:37:20 ◼   ► software platform than a car company?

00:37:23 ◼   ► And that's the whole point of Android Auto

00:37:25 ◼   ► and CarPlay is not you, right?

00:37:30 ◼   ► My cell phone provider that I get a new phone every year

00:37:33 ◼   ► or two and is updating the software all the time

00:37:36 ◼   ► and has a rich app library, that's who I wanna go with

00:37:41 ◼   ► and who I care about.

00:37:42 ◼   ► And I appreciate that you're my car

00:37:45 ◼   ► and you wanna do stuff for me.

00:37:47 ◼   ► And if you do stuff for me in certain ways, that's great.

00:37:49 ◼   ► But my smartphone means something to me.

00:37:53 ◼   ► It's important to me.

00:37:54 ◼   ► And when Apple did their weird

00:37:56 ◼   ► next generation car play announcement at WWDC last year,

00:37:59 ◼   ► they had that statement about how like what,

00:38:01 ◼   ► 75% of the people who buy new cars in the United States

00:38:04 ◼   ► said that carplay was a must for them, essentially,

00:38:09 ◼   ► that they needed to have carplay.

00:38:11 ◼   ► - Well, it was important.

00:38:12 ◼   ► - It was important to them in some way.

00:38:14 ◼   ► This is GM saying, yes, but if you want our cars,

00:38:16 ◼   ► you've got to give it up,

00:38:17 ◼   ► which really seems like a self-inflicted wound here.

00:38:20 ◼   ► But again, this really has the scent of two things.

00:38:23 ◼   ► It is a, somebody somewhere in the corporate structure said,

00:38:27 ◼   ► we want to lock this down.

00:38:29 ◼   ► We're going to lock them out.

00:38:30 ◼   ► We don't want, cell phones are competing with the car

00:38:32 ◼   ► for people's interests and the car should win.

00:38:36 ◼   ► Which is bananas.

00:38:37 ◼   ► And then two is, how do we upsell them

00:38:40 ◼   ► if it's all on board their phone?

00:38:42 ◼   ► We wanna control that like we did with OnStar.

00:38:44 ◼   ► We wanna build in all sorts of things.

00:38:47 ◼   ► So when a person in their 70s

00:38:50 ◼   ► who's not even driving their car anymore,

00:38:52 ◼   ► but it's a Pontiac or whatever, and it's in the garage,

00:38:55 ◼   ► and this is what happened with my mother.

00:38:57 ◼   ► And they're paying OnStar $30, $20 every single month

00:39:02 ◼   ► in case they get in a car accident and it'll,

00:39:05 ◼   ► I mean, it's like, but your phone does that now too.

00:39:07 ◼   ► And they're like, all right,

00:39:08 ◼   ► we need to refresh this technology and find another way

00:39:11 ◼   ► to suck 20 or $30 or $40 or whatever every month

00:39:14 ◼   ► out of everybody who buys our car.

00:39:18 ◼   ► We want that money.

00:39:19 ◼   ► And that's the other motivator here.

00:39:21 ◼   ► So it's very frustrating.

00:39:22 ◼   ► I feel like it didn't need to be this way.

00:39:24 ◼   ► It immediately makes me not interested

00:39:27 ◼   ► in buying GM vehicles for GM EVs, right?

00:39:31 ◼   ► Like immediately.

00:39:32 ◼   ► It's like, it's such a self-inflicted wound.

00:39:35 ◼   ► 'Cause all you need to say is,

00:39:37 ◼   ► sure, you can bring in your phone for that.

00:39:40 ◼   ► But like for the nav

00:39:41 ◼   ► and for some other amazing innovative things we're doing,

00:39:43 ◼   ► you're gonna need to use the onboard.

00:39:44 ◼   ► But yeah, you can plug in your phone for your music

00:39:48 ◼   ► or your apps or whatever, like we don't care.

00:39:50 ◼   ► And instead of like, no, mm-mm, mm-mm, stay away.

00:39:54 ◼   ► We're more important than your smartphone.

00:39:56 ◼   ► And that, if I have to boil it down,

00:39:58 ◼   ► that's the thing that drives me crazy about this.

00:40:00 ◼   ► for GM, for Tesla, for Rivian, for anybody who says

00:40:04 ◼   ► we don't want smartphone platforms in our car,

00:40:07 ◼   ► is they're so delusional that the car,

00:40:11 ◼   ► the in-car experience not only is gonna be as good

00:40:13 ◼   ► as those phones, 'cause it's not,

00:40:16 ◼   ► but that people have more affinity for their car screen

00:40:21 ◼   ► than the phone that they carry with them all day

00:40:25 ◼   ► and all night.

00:40:27 ◼   ► And like, it's just, it's delusional.

00:40:29 ◼   ► So what I'm saying is good luck GM, but it's bad.

00:40:34 ◼   ► That's my rant, I guess.

00:40:36 ◼   ► It's terrible.

00:40:37 ◼   ► What are they doing?

00:40:38 ◼   ► What a step backward.

00:40:39 ◼   ► I thought we had gone beyond this, but apparently not.

00:40:43 ◼   ► - I was wondering like, where is next generation carplay?

00:40:46 ◼   ► Like when I was preparing for the show today

00:40:48 ◼   ► and like I found out a call,

00:40:50 ◼   ► which maybe I'd forgotten about this

00:40:51 ◼   ► or probably wasn't paying attention to it specifically

00:40:54 ◼   ► 'cause I have no car that would,

00:40:57 ◼   ► would have no intention of a car

00:40:59 ◼   ► that would support next generation carplay.

00:41:01 ◼   ► That they're not shipping until late 2023,

00:41:04 ◼   ► but they are car shipping this year

00:41:07 ◼   ► from a bunch of brands like Acura, Audi, the list goes on.

00:41:10 ◼   ► There's a bunch.

00:41:11 ◼   ► 14 automakers will be shipping cars by the end of this year

00:41:15 ◼   ► with the next generation carplay.

00:41:17 ◼   ► I actually expect we will see more of this at WWDC this year.

00:41:22 ◼   ► They'll show it off in a little bit more detail.

00:41:24 ◼   ► Maybe with some actual,

00:41:26 ◼   ► this is what it's gonna look like in this car

00:41:28 ◼   ► as opposed to like here's a car concept.

00:41:31 ◼   ► - And we speculated about this.

00:41:32 ◼   ► And when Sam was on last summer,

00:41:34 ◼   ► we speculated about it too.

00:41:36 ◼   ► There's sort of two ways that this could go.

00:41:38 ◼   ► I think the most likely scenario is that there's like,

00:41:41 ◼   ► either there's an API of some kind,

00:41:45 ◼   ► or Apple has literally done the work to connect

00:41:47 ◼   ► with every single car maker that's a partner,

00:41:50 ◼   ► to get access to the low level data

00:41:52 ◼   ► that's coming from the car

00:41:54 ◼   ► and display it in this next generation carplay.

00:41:56 ◼   ► I feel like that's the way they should do it.

00:41:59 ◼   ► I feel like it should be a collaboration

00:42:01 ◼   ► between the two companies

00:42:02 ◼   ► because there's only a limited amount of companies

00:42:04 ◼   ► that it can be.

00:42:05 ◼   ► - Yeah. - You know?

00:42:06 ◼   ► - They could build like an Android automotive

00:42:09 ◼   ► sort of low end thing, but Sam was very much like,

00:42:11 ◼   ► it doesn't sound like Apple and it would be a lot of work

00:42:14 ◼   ► and they're not gonna do it.

00:42:14 ◼   ► But what you could do is have,

00:42:17 ◼   ► so you go to Audi or whoever else and Nissan,

00:42:22 ◼   ► and you say, can your in-car real-time operating system

00:42:27 ◼   ► provide data live, you know, to us for us to display.

00:42:36 ◼   ► Or the other thing Sam talked about is,

00:42:39 ◼   ► or it's a theming thing where like,

00:42:41 ◼   ► we're gonna put up a box here with a speed

00:42:46 ◼   ► and you're gonna put the speed there, right?

00:42:49 ◼   ► Where it's like working with the cars in car system.

00:42:52 ◼   ► There's some different ways that they could do it.

00:42:54 ◼   ► But that's my guess too, is that it's like,

00:42:56 ◼   ► it's mega carplay, where it's like carplay

00:42:58 ◼   ► that's super integrated,

00:42:59 ◼   ► but it's not like running on the low level,

00:43:01 ◼   ► which means that if your phone's not there, it still works.

00:43:04 ◼   ► To GM's point about, we don't want our car to not work

00:43:08 ◼   ► when there's not a paired smartphone with it.

00:43:10 ◼   ► Like totally, you don't want that.

00:43:12 ◼   ► But then you wanna have it be this upgraded experience.

00:43:15 ◼   ► And yeah, I just, I find it fascinating the GM,

00:43:19 ◼   ► again, I think they're high on their own supply here.

00:43:21 ◼   ► is like, oh no, we don't need,

00:43:23 ◼   ► we don't need a CarPlay and Android Auto.

00:43:25 ◼   ► And this isn't just about CarPlay.

00:43:26 ◼   ► It's like, literally we don't need anybody

00:43:28 ◼   ► to connect their smartphone.

00:43:29 ◼   ► We have built our own bespoke automotive stack

00:43:34 ◼   ► and people are gonna love it.

00:43:36 ◼   ► It's like, even, and here's a prediction,

00:43:38 ◼   ► even if it's good when they ship it,

00:43:41 ◼   ► the other thing that's gonna happen

00:43:42 ◼   ► is it's never gonna advance at the same rate

00:43:44 ◼   ► as every other computing platform does.

00:43:47 ◼   ► And so it's gonna become old and boring and bad

00:43:51 ◼   ► when everybody else is zooming forward with new apps

00:43:53 ◼   ► and new features and stuff

00:43:54 ◼   ► that you would get to upgrade your car.

00:43:57 ◼   ► When you upgrade your phone right now,

00:43:58 ◼   ► you upgrade your car, right?

00:44:00 ◼   ► With CarPlay or Android Auto

00:44:01 ◼   ► and that won't be the case with this.

00:44:03 ◼   ► So I don't know what they're, again,

00:44:05 ◼   ► they're chasing incremental subscription revenue.

00:44:08 ◼   ► And also they just believe that people just love

00:44:12 ◼   ► their car platform, which is bananas, but there it is.

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00:46:41 ◼   ► Rumour round up Jason Snell.

00:46:43 ◼   ► Yeehaw!

00:46:44 ◼   ► Ming-Chi Kuo is not very optimistic about whether Apple can create its "iPhone moment"

00:46:51 ◼   ► with the headset and has subsequently delayed mass production to the middle to end of Q3.

00:46:59 ◼   ► Because of this, Kuo believes that this adds uncertainty as to whether Apple will be debuting

00:47:04 ◼   ► the device at WWDC.

00:47:06 ◼   ► It seems, I mean, we've been saying for a long time that in some ways WWDC is the perfect

00:47:13 ◼   ► place to unveil it because it's a new platform and they want developers to get on board.

00:47:20 ◼   ► And that because it's a new product that is not replacing an existing product, they can

00:47:24 ◼   ► pre-announce it.

00:47:25 ◼   ► So I'm not sure, I mean, at some point,

00:47:29 ◼   ► maybe we were expecting that they would announce it.

00:47:31 ◼   ► I don't know, announce a huge product like that

00:47:33 ◼   ► and then ship it immediately.

00:47:34 ◼   ► I sort of always expected that it would ship later.

00:47:36 ◼   ► So if it doesn't ship until the fall,

00:47:40 ◼   ► not only is that not unreasonable,

00:47:44 ◼   ► but it actually gives them a,

00:47:46 ◼   ► like with the Apple Watch,

00:47:47 ◼   ► it gives them a second event to introduce the product.

00:47:49 ◼   ► - I think that this has always been the plan.

00:47:51 ◼   ► I think that Quo has a piece of information

00:47:54 ◼   ► and is extrapolating,

00:47:55 ◼   ► and I don't think he's extrapolating correctly.

00:47:58 ◼   ► - All the information that he seems to have is

00:48:01 ◼   ► this isn't gonna ship in volume until later in the year.

00:48:04 ◼   ► - Yeah.

00:48:05 ◼   ► - And that doesn't seem unreasonable to me,

00:48:06 ◼   ► but then he's extrapolating,

00:48:07 ◼   ► oh, maybe they won't announce it.

00:48:08 ◼   ► And it's like, I don't know.

00:48:10 ◼   ► - I don't think that makes sense.

00:48:11 ◼   ► - It seems like this is the right time to announce it.

00:48:13 ◼   ► And then they say, look, again,

00:48:14 ◼   ► for those who have forgotten the lesson of,

00:48:17 ◼   ► what was it, 2014,

00:48:18 ◼   ► Apple announced the Apple Watch in September

00:48:24 ◼   ► and shipped it in what, April of the next year?

00:48:27 ◼   ► So you can do that.

00:48:29 ◼   ► Like you can only do it once, right?

00:48:31 ◼   ► You can't undercut that product the next time.

00:48:33 ◼   ► - They've always done it.

00:48:34 ◼   ► Every time they've had a brand new product category,

00:48:37 ◼   ► they always do it that way.

00:48:39 ◼   ► 'Cause you can, there's no, what is it?

00:48:41 ◼   ► - 'Cause you can.

00:48:42 ◼   ► - What is the Sinclair effect?

00:48:45 ◼   ► - The Osborne effect. - That's it,

00:48:46 ◼   ► the Osborne effect.

00:48:47 ◼   ► So that was the idea of, there was the Osborne computer

00:48:50 ◼   ► and they had one available and they showed off

00:48:53 ◼   ► but better, more powerful model coming later.

00:48:55 ◼   ► - Right, our company's survival depends

00:48:57 ◼   ► on you buying the Osborne 1.

00:48:59 ◼   ► By the way, next year we'll have a much better computer,

00:49:01 ◼   ► the Osborne 2, and everyone's like,

00:49:03 ◼   ► well, we'll wait for that one.

00:49:04 ◼   ► And it's like, oh no, we're going to die.

00:49:07 ◼   ► Yeah. - So that's not a thing.

00:49:09 ◼   ► Considering the things we've been talking about recently,

00:49:12 ◼   ► like Apple showing it to the top 100 and that kind of stuff,

00:49:15 ◼   ► I can't imagine that something has happened

00:49:17 ◼   ► in the last couple of weeks where they're like,

00:49:19 ◼   ► well, we've got to change our plans completely.

00:49:21 ◼   ► Like, I just, I don't, you know,

00:49:23 ◼   ► and I was talking to a friend of the show,

00:49:25 ◼   ► one true John, John Voorhees about this,

00:49:27 ◼   ► and he mentioned, like, I made a good point of like,

00:49:29 ◼   ► when they showed off the original iPhone,

00:49:31 ◼   ► like all of the stories that have come since,

00:49:33 ◼   ► of like, that thing was holding on

00:49:35 ◼   ► with string and good wishes. - Oh yeah.

00:49:37 ◼   ► - That like, if Steve did things in the wrong order,

00:49:39 ◼   ► the demo would fail, right?

00:49:42 ◼   ► - Absolutely, no, they were sitting in the audience

00:49:44 ◼   ► going like, oh God, oh God, oh God, oh God,

00:49:46 ◼   ► and then, you know, it didn't do that, but,

00:49:49 ◼   ► and they undoubtedly had multiple backup phones on, right?

00:49:52 ◼   ► For like, oh well, let's go to this next one, right?

00:49:55 ◼   ► Because yeah, it wasn't, well, I mean,

00:49:58 ◼   ► I got to get my hands on one the next day or two days later

00:50:02 ◼   ► and several of the apps just weren't there, right?

00:50:07 ◼   ► Like my big memory is that I tapped on the Notes app

00:50:11 ◼   ► and an image, a screenshot of the Notes app appeared.

00:50:14 ◼   ► I was like, oh, okay. - Which I expect

00:50:16 ◼   ► if press gets to see the headset,

00:50:18 ◼   ► which I still think is an if, that's what it will be like.

00:50:21 ◼   ► Like you might not even be able to use it.

00:50:22 ◼   ► - I think it'll be, my guess is that it will be a demo.

00:50:26 ◼   ► Even if we get to try it, which is, I agree is a big if,

00:50:29 ◼   ► because of the, it's not quite the same thing

00:50:32 ◼   ► as like walking up and picking up a phone, right?

00:50:34 ◼   ► Like it's actually, if we get to try it,

00:50:36 ◼   ► I suspect it'll be like, you have a 15 minute window

00:50:39 ◼   ► at 3.45 to come and try it for 15,

00:50:42 ◼   ► you know, for those 15 minutes.

00:50:44 ◼   ► - And it's gonna walk through this set path.

00:50:46 ◼   ► and it's gonna be put it on

00:50:48 ◼   ► and you're gonna be in an environment

00:50:50 ◼   ► where they tell you to do stuff

00:50:51 ◼   ► or you turn around and look around

00:50:53 ◼   ► and they're like, okay, we're taking you

00:50:54 ◼   ► to the next environment.

00:50:55 ◼   ► But I don't think it's gonna be,

00:50:57 ◼   ► maybe it'll be a totally, again,

00:51:00 ◼   ► scripted walkthrough kind of thing.

00:51:02 ◼   ► Like when the Apple Watch, that first Apple Watch thing,

00:51:04 ◼   ► they're like, oh, but don't touch it.

00:51:07 ◼   ► And one of them was like, you can hold it

00:51:09 ◼   ► and it was running a loop.

00:51:11 ◼   ► It was like running a demo loop.

00:51:13 ◼   ► So you could see what it looked like on your wrist,

00:51:14 ◼   ► but it wasn't interactive.

00:51:16 ◼   ► it'll be something like that, right?

00:51:17 ◼   ► Where it'll be like, well, I tried it,

00:51:19 ◼   ► but 'cause it won't be ready.

00:51:21 ◼   ► - Yep, and don't forget the demo prerecorded, edited, right?

00:51:25 ◼   ► Like, it's like, even if they wanted to go back

00:51:30 ◼   ► to like presentations,

00:51:32 ◼   ► I don't think they'd do it with this one.

00:51:34 ◼   ► - No.

00:51:35 ◼   ► - You have so much lenience available to you in the demo

00:51:40 ◼   ► for this product.

00:51:41 ◼   ► Nothing can go wrong because you can just edit it.

00:51:44 ◼   ► Like, we'll talk about what Mark Gurman had to say

00:51:47 ◼   ► about this, but he referenced when the iPhone 10 demo

00:51:50 ◼   ► and the face unlock didn't work.

00:51:52 ◼   ► - Right.

00:51:53 ◼   ► - And Craig had to change phone,

00:51:55 ◼   ► which I had completely forgotten about

00:51:57 ◼   ► until you mentioned that.

00:51:58 ◼   ► Well, like, that wouldn't happen with this

00:52:01 ◼   ► because it would be a prerecorded video

00:52:03 ◼   ► that they would have made, you know,

00:52:05 ◼   ► probably even the next couple of weeks or whatever.

00:52:07 ◼   ► And then you don't have to worry about any of that.

00:52:10 ◼   ► So speaking of which, Mark Gurman,

00:52:12 ◼   ► in his power on newsletter suggests that,

00:52:15 ◼   ► well, he still sounds very confident

00:52:18 ◼   ► that WWDC will be the debut,

00:52:20 ◼   ► quote from the newsletter,

00:52:21 ◼   ► "The showcase at WWDC will likely include

00:52:23 ◼   ► "the headset itself,

00:52:25 ◼   ► "but also its onboard XROS operating system,

00:52:28 ◼   ► "accompanying services, and perhaps most critically,

00:52:30 ◼   ► "a software development kit and platform

00:52:32 ◼   ► "that will let developers write new types of apps."

00:52:34 ◼   ► So like, this is it.

00:52:36 ◼   ► I feel like if they're not doing this now,

00:52:39 ◼   ► I kinda don't even know why they're doing WWDC this year.

00:52:42 ◼   ► "This is it. I would be flabbergasted if there is no headset."

00:52:48 ◼   ► Because they can just say, as I'm sure they will,

00:52:51 ◼   ► "Shipping later this year, that's it."

00:52:53 ◼   ► Or, "We'll have more to say later this year."

00:52:56 ◼   ► And that's kind of how they'll leave it.

00:52:59 ◼   ► But there'll be the development kit available.

00:53:01 ◼   ► - It also means they may,

00:53:03 ◼   ► 'cause remember the QoW report is mass production.

00:53:06 ◼   ► When Marc says a software development kit and platform,

00:53:09 ◼   ► it's possible that there will be limited quantities

00:53:12 ◼   ► of headsets available with a version of,

00:53:16 ◼   ► maybe they're the real headsets,

00:53:18 ◼   ► hardware that developers will be able to attach to a Mac

00:53:23 ◼   ► and do development over the summer.

00:53:27 ◼   ► But they, in that, and you're like, well, won't that get out?

00:53:30 ◼   ► Well, it's like, well, sure it'll get out,

00:53:31 ◼   ► but if they aren't running the OS,

00:53:34 ◼   ► if they're literally set up to just run things

00:53:37 ◼   ► on a developer unit,

00:53:40 ◼   ► then you're not getting the full experience.

00:53:42 ◼   ► So they could go down that path

00:53:44 ◼   ► and still keep some delight

00:53:46 ◼   ► for when they actually ship the product.

00:53:48 ◼   ► So there's lots of options in play here.

00:53:50 ◼   ► 'Cause I wonder about that too.

00:53:51 ◼   ► We talked about it.

00:53:53 ◼   ► How do you develop a VR app

00:53:54 ◼   ► without a VR piece of hardware?

00:53:58 ◼   ► Like you ultimately, you do need something,

00:54:01 ◼   ► whether that's there.

00:54:02 ◼   ► And it's a hard time,

00:54:03 ◼   ► since their hardware is so advanced,

00:54:05 ◼   ► it's a hard time.

00:54:06 ◼   ► I have a hard time imagining

00:54:07 ◼   ► that they're gonna say, oh yeah,

00:54:08 ◼   ► just use someone else's hardware in the meantime.

00:54:11 ◼   ► - It won't work.

00:54:12 ◼   ► Everything we've heard about what they're doing,

00:54:15 ◼   ► nobody else is doing it the way they're doing it.

00:54:17 ◼   ► No one else has, if it works, right,

00:54:20 ◼   ► if it works how it's supposed to,

00:54:22 ◼   ► nobody's got hardware that is as good as this.

00:54:25 ◼   ► - Yeah, so that'll be something else to watch.

00:54:28 ◼   ► - The closest might be PlayStation in some things.

00:54:30 ◼   ► If you did like a, which obviously would not work, right,

00:54:33 ◼   ► 'cause the processing's on the PS5,

00:54:36 ◼   ► but like yeah so there isn't really anybody that can do this so there's no other way to

00:54:41 ◼   ► test it.

00:54:43 ◼   ► So basically I expect Ninjiquo is correct in what he's saying that there is a potential

00:54:50 ◼   ► they want to hold it a little bit longer before producing them maybe they have something else

00:54:53 ◼   ► they want to do to the hardware to make it more reliable make it better or whatever but

00:54:57 ◼   ► I don't think that changes Apple showing it all off during WWDC.

00:55:03 ◼   ► Mark Gurman is also reporting that WatchOS 10

00:55:06 ◼   ► will feature, quote, "Notable changes to the user interface

00:55:09 ◼   ► marking a fairly extensive upgrade for the Apple Watch."

00:55:14 ◼   ► - Interesting, and he says,

00:55:15 ◼   ► because the Apple Watch itself

00:55:17 ◼   ► isn't gonna change very much, so.

00:55:18 ◼   ► (laughs)

00:55:19 ◼   ► - Which I just can't, it hurts me.

00:55:22 ◼   ► I've decided now, when I get my next Apple Watch,

00:55:25 ◼   ► which I will get a new watch in September,

00:55:29 ◼   ► I will go to the Ultra.

00:55:31 ◼   ► I'm hoping and expecting there will be another Apple Watch Ultra and then I will upgrade to that one.

00:55:36 ◼   ► Because at this point I have to have something different because I just can't

00:55:42 ◼   ► keep I can't stand the the same design of the Apple Watch consistently forever.

00:55:46 ◼   ► So I really want an Ultra now but I'm just not going to do it in like April.

00:55:56 ◼   ► like I'm not gonna do that so I'm just gonna wait. So what what what does an extensive app a watchOS

00:56:02 ◼   ► I don't know update look like and I what I keep thinking is it's got to be a major interface

00:56:11 ◼   ► change right so it's... I don't even know what that what that could like what could you do?

00:56:15 ◼   ► Well I so just off the top of my head and this will be good draft fodder I guess um off the top

00:56:23 ◼   ► on the top of my head, well, there is the letting people

00:56:28 ◼   ► build third-party watch faces or parts of watch faces,

00:56:32 ◼   ► right, like more dynamic, like could you build watch faces

00:56:37 ◼   ► out of, like, okay, I get the fear of third-party

00:56:40 ◼   ► watch faces, maybe they don't go there, but maybe they do.

00:56:42 ◼   ► But I start to think about like ways you could fudge it,

00:56:45 ◼   ► where you could say like, a watch face development kit,

00:56:48 ◼   ► and you get, and it's like a Lego set, right,

00:56:51 ◼   ► where it's like, you get to use--

00:56:52 ◼   ► - It's CarPlay for Apple Watch.

00:56:55 ◼   ► - And these locations, and well, it's like,

00:56:57 ◼   ► you can build, David Smith, you can build your own watch face

00:57:01 ◼   ► but you need to build it out of the parts

00:57:03 ◼   ► that we give you, right?

00:57:05 ◼   ► We're not gonna let you use random parts.

00:57:08 ◼   ► You have to use our parts, which would be frustrating

00:57:10 ◼   ► but it might lead to better watch faces

00:57:12 ◼   ► than the stock watch faces, depending on what they do there.

00:57:15 ◼   ► Or they could just say, sure, open it up.

00:57:17 ◼   ► - Tell me, like, how different would that be to Swift UI?

00:57:21 ◼   ► Like, isn't that kind of what SwiftUI is?

00:57:24 ◼   ► - Yeah, I mean, this is the question, right?

00:57:27 ◼   ► Like, I feel like they could just go there.

00:57:29 ◼   ► I mean, David Smith is,

00:57:30 ◼   ► this is the annoying thing about David,

00:57:31 ◼   ► is that he has shown us that like,

00:57:34 ◼   ► here's how you build a watch face on Apple Watch,

00:57:36 ◼   ► a custom watch face,

00:57:37 ◼   ► and he builds them as apps for fun, 'cause he's like that.

00:57:40 ◼   ► But like, he shows that you can do it.

00:57:42 ◼   ► And I think also he shows that you could do it,

00:57:45 ◼   ► but it's hard.

00:57:46 ◼   ► And also there's nothing stopping Apple from saying

00:57:48 ◼   ► they go in the app store and they have to be approved, right?

00:57:50 ◼   ► So if people are like, oh, well,

00:57:51 ◼   ► they're gonna just do things that violate copyright

00:57:53 ◼   ► and stuff like that.

00:57:54 ◼   ► Well, they could say, look,

00:57:55 ◼   ► we have a very strict policy about watch faces

00:57:57 ◼   ► and it's gonna be analyzed, but we're gonna let you do it.

00:58:00 ◼   ► Or use the watch face developer kit.

00:58:02 ◼   ► Those are options.

00:58:03 ◼   ► Off the top of my head, some other thoughts I had.

00:58:05 ◼   ► Complications, right?

00:58:07 ◼   ► What about more dynamic complications?

00:58:10 ◼   ► Having the ability to one,

00:58:11 ◼   ► have your complications change based on content

00:58:14 ◼   ► or based on time of day or something like that.

00:58:17 ◼   ► That would be interesting.

00:58:19 ◼   ► What if they were interactive?

00:58:21 ◼   ► So the ability to tap on a complication

00:58:24 ◼   ► and get like a little quick thing that popped up

00:58:26 ◼   ► that gave you more information or let you jump into an app

00:58:29 ◼   ► or do a response or something like that.

00:58:31 ◼   ► That might be an interesting way to go.

00:58:33 ◼   ► I keep thinking about stuff like that.

00:58:35 ◼   ► Like differences to watch faces,

00:58:37 ◼   ► differences to complications,

00:58:39 ◼   ► differences to app launching, I don't know,

00:58:43 ◼   ► notifications, I'm not sure.

00:58:45 ◼   ► it feels like the core watch experience is the face.

00:58:49 ◼   ► And so if they're gonna do an overhaul,

00:58:51 ◼   ► it would be like the conception of the face.

00:58:54 ◼   ► And the other option is like,

00:58:55 ◼   ► maybe the apps are gonna get a lot more power.

00:58:57 ◼   ► That's the other thought I had is maybe they,

00:58:59 ◼   ► maybe when they're overhauling the OS,

00:59:02 ◼   ► it really is like saying,

00:59:04 ◼   ► we're going to give watchOS apps a lot more ability

00:59:09 ◼   ► than they currently have

00:59:10 ◼   ► and make it a little more iPhone-like

00:59:13 ◼   ► and it's independence and it's power.

00:59:15 ◼   ► but that's just all off the top of my head.

00:59:17 ◼   ► I still think it comes back to faces and complications

00:59:20 ◼   ► 'cause that's the core of the whole device.

00:59:23 ◼   ► - One of the things that a lot of people were talking about

00:59:26 ◼   ► with the original Apple Watch reviews

00:59:28 ◼   ► is that Apple didn't really do much in watchOS

00:59:31 ◼   ► to take advantage of the larger screen

00:59:32 ◼   ► and the kind of slightly different screen shape.

00:59:35 ◼   ► I was wondering if potentially the Apple Watch Ultra

00:59:38 ◼   ► was a big enough hit that it prompted them to look at

00:59:42 ◼   ► how could we tweak and adapt the watchOS look and feel

00:59:47 ◼   ► for that device.

00:59:48 ◼   ► And or like the Apple watchOS team maybe didn't know

00:59:52 ◼   ► about the device, like maybe some of the UI designers

00:59:56 ◼   ► didn't know and then when they saw it,

00:59:57 ◼   ► they were like, oh, we could do this, we could do that.

00:59:59 ◼   ► I don't know if there would be enough time

01:00:01 ◼   ► for them to have made those changes, but possibly.

01:00:03 ◼   ► But that could be maybe part of it.

01:00:05 ◼   ► But yeah, I agree with you, the biggest changes should be

01:00:08 ◼   ► in what people are seeing on their watch.

01:00:11 ◼   ► Like that's the main use.

01:00:12 ◼   ► There is a lot of user interface in the watch, right?

01:00:15 ◼   ► But the majority of it is the watch face

01:00:17 ◼   ► and the complications.

01:00:18 ◼   ► And if they can make changes there,

01:00:20 ◼   ► 'cause really through the apps,

01:00:22 ◼   ► I don't know how much you could realistically change.

01:00:25 ◼   ► There's just not a lot of screen

01:00:27 ◼   ► to make a bunch of UI change.

01:00:29 ◼   ► - Right.

01:00:30 ◼   ► - But it would be cool to see more.

01:00:33 ◼   ► I mean, yes, watch faces is what I want

01:00:35 ◼   ► because I think that there are people in the world

01:00:38 ◼   ► that could do a better job.

01:00:40 ◼   ► and I would like to see what they could do.

01:00:42 ◼   ► - Yeah, and complications again, I love,

01:00:46 ◼   ► like apps on the watch are fine, you're right.

01:00:50 ◼   ► Like what more could they do?

01:00:51 ◼   ► They could have more power.

01:00:53 ◼   ► But what I really love about apps is that apps shine through

01:00:57 ◼   ► into watch faces, right?

01:00:59 ◼   ► Like that's the power.

01:01:01 ◼   ► That's my favorite thing about the Apple Watch is in theory,

01:01:05 ◼   ► you have an app that you care about,

01:01:07 ◼   ► but you're not running that app

01:01:08 ◼   ► on the Apple Watch all the time.

01:01:09 ◼   ► It's there if you need it, but it's not really running most of the time, but it's shining

01:01:14 ◼   ► through a little complication spot on your watch face.

01:01:19 ◼   ► That's where, for my money, that's where the magic happens.

01:01:22 ◼   ► So anything they can do to make that better, whether it's more dynamic, more interactive,

01:01:28 ◼   ► or just updated more, like, let's do that.

01:01:33 ◼   ► Because I think that is the real secret sauce about the Apple Watch, is picking your own

01:01:39 ◼   ► on complications and having the data from apps show up

01:01:42 ◼   ► in the right place, the way you want it,

01:01:44 ◼   ► at the right time too, which it kind of doesn't right now.

01:01:46 ◼   ► Like it doesn't do that.

01:01:48 ◼   ► And I know that there's a lot of complexity

01:01:49 ◼   ► that goes into that.

01:01:50 ◼   ► How do you say, I want this thing to show during the day

01:01:53 ◼   ► and this thing to show at night or whatever.

01:01:55 ◼   ► But like, I would love the ability to have

01:02:00 ◼   ► my complications change based on the data

01:02:03 ◼   ► and the complications, for example.

01:02:04 ◼   ► Like the classic one that we've said before is,

01:02:08 ◼   ► I want to see my timers when I've got a timer running,

01:02:12 ◼   ► but I don't want a timer icon on my watch face

01:02:17 ◼   ► all the time, right?

01:02:19 ◼   ► That's a context thing, but you can't do that.

01:02:22 ◼   ► - I feel like in the Western kind of setting

01:02:27 ◼   ► that the River Roundhut takes place.

01:02:29 ◼   ► - Corral, it's kind of a corral.

01:02:31 ◼   ► - We should maybe have like a lake,

01:02:33 ◼   ► which is called like display lake or something like that.

01:02:36 ◼   ► - Oh, I see. - 'Cause we spend a lot

01:02:37 ◼   ► of time talking about displays now.

01:02:40 ◼   ► - It's the display meadow. - Yeah.

01:02:41 ◼   ► - Like it's right over there, it's where the horses are.

01:02:43 ◼   ► It's the display meadow. - Display meadow looks like

01:02:46 ◼   ► the meadow from the Windows XP desktop.

01:02:49 ◼   ► That's how those things tie together.

01:02:51 ◼   ► Reports from-- - More cactuses.

01:02:52 ◼   ► - Beelac and Ross Young suggest that while Apple is focused

01:02:56 ◼   ► on an OLED iPad Pro, they are also working

01:03:00 ◼   ► on a 13-inch OLED MacBook Air,

01:03:03 ◼   ► possibly not shipping until 2026.

01:03:06 ◼   ► it's expected that this would be the first OLED laptop.

01:03:10 ◼   ► Now my question on this is,

01:03:12 ◼   ► if the rumors we've been talking about

01:03:14 ◼   ► over the last couple of weeks

01:03:15 ◼   ► suggest that OLED's going to make the iPad Pro

01:03:18 ◼   ► like two times more expensive,

01:03:20 ◼   ► what would that do to the MacBook Air?

01:03:23 ◼   ► - I don't know.

01:03:23 ◼   ► - And why would they go that route?

01:03:25 ◼   ► So, - I don't know.

01:03:26 ◼   ► - Ming-Chi Kuo says,

01:03:27 ◼   ► compared to mini LED, laptops that use OLEDs

01:03:30 ◼   ► have the advantage of being thinner and lighter

01:03:32 ◼   ► and offering more diverse form factor design options,

01:03:35 ◼   ► which like, okay, that makes sense why you would want

01:03:39 ◼   ► that technology in that device,

01:03:41 ◼   ► but if it's going to make the price more expensive,

01:03:46 ◼   ► I don't see it, you know, unless there's this,

01:03:50 ◼   ► you know, there's this rumored breakthrough,

01:03:52 ◼   ► but even then it was said it probably wasn't gonna make

01:03:55 ◼   ► that much of a difference, so like I just,

01:03:57 ◼   ► I can't work out why a MacBook Air would get an OLED screen

01:04:01 ◼   ► if it's going to increase the price on a device

01:04:04 ◼   ► where they struggle when it comes to pricing anyway.

01:04:08 ◼   ► - Right, in our inflationary era,

01:04:10 ◼   ► it may just be that we will never see a new MacBook Air

01:04:14 ◼   ► for 999, right?

01:04:15 ◼   ► - Yeah.

01:04:16 ◼   ► - But I wonder about this one, like at some point,

01:04:20 ◼   ► you can't have a whole stack of MacBook Airs

01:04:23 ◼   ► with various prices ranging from,

01:04:26 ◼   ► well, I mean, I guess you can, but it seems weird to me,

01:04:29 ◼   ► prices ranging from 999 up to like, what, 1999?

01:04:33 ◼   ► I think that's the question is the MacBook Air

01:04:34 ◼   ► is very popular, but one of the reasons it's popular

01:04:37 ◼   ► is because it's cheaper than the MacBook Pro.

01:04:40 ◼   ► And then you stick an OLED in it

01:04:41 ◼   ► and it makes it more expensive.

01:04:43 ◼   ► Like I can see that being an option

01:04:45 ◼   ► or being a different product.

01:04:47 ◼   ► Like maybe that's the MacBook.

01:04:49 ◼   ► But like to have the MacBook Air be way more expensive

01:04:56 ◼   ► is that seems weird to me,

01:04:58 ◼   ► but we may end up in a scenario where that happens, right?

01:05:00 ◼   ► Where there's like an M3 MacBook Air

01:05:02 ◼   ► that looks like the one we've currently got.

01:05:04 ◼   ► And then there's an M4 MacBook Air that's OLED,

01:05:06 ◼   ► but it starts like $400 higher still.

01:05:10 ◼   ► And that's just how it works from now on

01:05:13 ◼   ► is you pay more for the OLED model.

01:05:15 ◼   ► - But then what's a MacBook Pro?

01:05:16 ◼   ► You know what I mean?

01:05:17 ◼   ► I get that point.

01:05:18 ◼   ► - I know also the, I get that thinner and lighter is good.

01:05:22 ◼   ► The diverse form factor design options line here

01:05:27 ◼   ► fascinates me 'cause like the rumor that they're working

01:05:30 ◼   ► on MacBook Pros with OLED, that makes more sense to me

01:05:33 ◼   ► if they're with OLED and touchscreen and convertible,

01:05:38 ◼   ► like maybe there's something there.

01:05:40 ◼   ► But in a MacBook Air, I don't know.

01:05:43 ◼   ► Unless again, the MacBook Air that they're going for

01:05:46 ◼   ► is a convertible.

01:05:47 ◼   ► Maybe the MacBook Air is so thin and light

01:05:49 ◼   ► that it's just a screen.

01:05:51 ◼   ► - My concern is that like, maybe Apple don't understand

01:05:54 ◼   ► why the MacBook Air is so successful.

01:05:56 ◼   ► And they think people love MacBook Air,

01:05:58 ◼   ► but I don't think people love MacBook Air.

01:06:00 ◼   ► People love a Mac laptop that's under $1,000.

01:06:04 ◼   ► - Yes.

01:06:05 ◼   ► - Like they're not in love with the brand.

01:06:06 ◼   ► Like they're in like that brand MacBook Air.

01:06:10 ◼   ► They're in love with, can I get an Apple laptop,

01:06:13 ◼   ► which I want an Apple laptop,

01:06:14 ◼   ► but I don't want to spend $1,500 for it.

01:06:18 ◼   ► - Yep, yep.

01:06:19 ◼   ► I agree.

01:06:20 ◼   ► My fear is that, is exactly what you said,

01:06:26 ◼   ► which is that Apple doesn't really understand

01:06:29 ◼   ► some aspects of its own success.

01:06:31 ◼   ► My hope is that these rumors are all about Apple

01:06:35 ◼   ► actually making changes.

01:06:36 ◼   ► Like these are their next moves on the Mac laptop,

01:06:39 ◼   ► which is the incredibly important,

01:06:41 ◼   ► most important part of the Mac, right?

01:06:43 ◼   ► And that we're not seeing the whole picture

01:06:46 ◼   ► and that there is a real, I mean, right?

01:06:48 ◼   ► Like I doubt that this is scattershot.

01:06:50 ◼   ► There's a strategy here.

01:06:51 ◼   ► It's just hard to see what the strategy is right now.

01:06:54 ◼   ► You know, there was, um, so David in the, in the discord is asking, like, I really

01:06:58 ◼   ► wonder what the sales split is between the M1 and the M2, there was a story that

01:07:02 ◼   ► I excluded from Rumour Roundup today, because it kind of felt like it was really

01:07:06 ◼   ► in the weeds.

01:07:07 ◼   ► Um, I don't know if you'd seen it, but it was that at the beginning of the year,

01:07:11 ◼   ► Apple cut M2 manufacturing for like six weeks.

01:07:17 ◼   ► They just didn't make any.

01:07:17 ◼   ► And then it came back in February and they are making 50% less.

01:07:24 ◼   ► M2 chips than they were before.

01:07:26 ◼   ► And that's the entire M2 line of chips.

01:07:29 ◼   ► And it's because of there being less demand

01:07:32 ◼   ► in consumer PCs, but it doesn't talk about the M1,

01:07:37 ◼   ► which is still in the original MacBook Air.

01:07:40 ◼   ► - Right.

01:07:41 ◼   ► I do wonder.

01:07:42 ◼   ► I do wonder about that.

01:07:44 ◼   ► 9.99 is a pretty great price for a pretty great laptop,

01:07:49 ◼   ► even though it's not the latest and greatest.

01:07:51 ◼   ► Then again, it's also that trick

01:07:53 ◼   ► where you bring everybody in the door for $9.99

01:07:55 ◼   ► and then you try to upsell them.

01:07:56 ◼   ► But I also know that I'm sure they've got partners, right?

01:07:58 ◼   ► It's education especially where, you know,

01:08:01 ◼   ► they're not gonna go higher.

01:08:04 ◼   ► So you better keep selling them the M1,

01:08:06 ◼   ► which is a fantastic computer.

01:08:08 ◼   ► It's just not, and in fact, if you're in an environment

01:08:11 ◼   ► where you've got a lot of older MacBook Airs,

01:08:13 ◼   ► it looks like them, right?

01:08:14 ◼   ► It behaves like them, it looks like them,

01:08:16 ◼   ► even though it's Apple Silicon,

01:08:18 ◼   ► whereas the M2 is different.

01:08:20 ◼   ► So it actually kind of fits in and it's $9.99

01:08:22 ◼   ► and education prices even lower.

01:08:26 ◼   ► We've spoken about the iPhone 15 Pro possibly losing its physical volume buttons and mute

01:08:31 ◼   ► switches in favor of capacitive ones.

01:08:34 ◼   ► A MacRumors source is reporting that users will be able to customize the pressure sensitivity

01:08:40 ◼   ► of these new capacitive buttons so that they would still work more reliably with cases

01:08:45 ◼   ► and while wearing gloves.

01:08:46 ◼   ► "The new capacitive buttons will detect presses, holds, and respond to various levels

01:08:51 ◼   ► of pressure via the use of a new force touch style mechanism and taptic engine feedback.

01:08:57 ◼   ► This is something I was worried about or thinking about, like it might be difficult for people of

01:09:01 ◼   ► like you know the home button when they put that passive home button. It just didn't work if you

01:09:06 ◼   ► had gloves on unless you had those like very particular type of gloves right those like ones

01:09:12 ◼   ► that would work that way. Which is dumb because the pressure sensitivity should be enough right

01:09:17 ◼   ► that should be, is that it shouldn't require

01:09:21 ◼   ► both a type of capacitive,

01:09:23 ◼   ► like it should be the pressure response should do it.

01:09:25 ◼   ► Although I get you don't want a false press,

01:09:27 ◼   ► but like a physical button can have a false press too.

01:09:30 ◼   ► What troubles me about this report is the idea

01:09:34 ◼   ► that users will be able to customize

01:09:37 ◼   ► the pressure sensitivity.

01:09:38 ◼   ► That sounds terrible to me.

01:09:40 ◼   ► - But it might be a thing that you might have to do.

01:09:44 ◼   ► - But this is what I'm saying is,

01:09:45 ◼   ► but yeah, but if I have to do that,

01:09:46 ◼   ► then they blew it, right?

01:09:47 ◼   ► Like what needs to happen is if I put it in a case

01:09:50 ◼   ► and the case adds some pressure,

01:09:52 ◼   ► like the software should be like,

01:09:54 ◼   ► even if the software needs interaction,

01:09:56 ◼   ► the software should be like,

01:09:57 ◼   ► oh, it looks like my button's being pressed down.

01:10:00 ◼   ► Should we adjust it?

01:10:02 ◼   ► Or it should just adjust it and not even ask you.

01:10:05 ◼   ► But if you end up having to go into a setting

01:10:08 ◼   ► to adjust the sensitivity, that seems like a real loss.

01:10:13 ◼   ► That's a big boo-boo.

01:10:15 ◼   ► - It won't bother me because I don't use a case

01:10:17 ◼   ► on my iPhone.

01:10:18 ◼   ► - I don't use a case either, but we're monsters, yeah.

01:10:20 ◼   ► - You are in favor though of the idea

01:10:24 ◼   ► of the iPhone action button.

01:10:26 ◼   ► - Yeah, I was delighted to listen to "Connected"

01:10:28 ◼   ► a couple of weeks ago and Federico went on this path

01:10:30 ◼   ► where he was like, "Oh, Mike, they're gonna do this thing.

01:10:33 ◼   ► And what does it mean?"

01:10:34 ◼   ► And I'm sitting there listening to this thinking,

01:10:36 ◼   ► it means that there's an action button.

01:10:38 ◼   ► And at the very end of his whole thing, he was like,

01:10:40 ◼   ► yeah, or maybe it's a programmable thing

01:10:41 ◼   ► like an action button.

01:10:42 ◼   ► I'm like, ah, Federico, you got there,

01:10:45 ◼   ► but I just decided to write that column anyway,

01:10:48 ◼   ► 'cause Federico didn't write it

01:10:49 ◼   ► and I wanted to put it out there basically saying,

01:10:52 ◼   ► I like, I know there are people,

01:10:53 ◼   ► I saw some people on Mastodon who are like,

01:10:55 ◼   ► but I can reach into my pocket

01:10:56 ◼   ► and feel the position of the Switch exactly

01:10:58 ◼   ► and know that it's silenced.

01:10:59 ◼   ► - I'm one of those people.

01:11:01 ◼   ► - I can never remember which one it is,

01:11:03 ◼   ► so I always flip it and then flip it back on

01:11:06 ◼   ► and hear the buzz, feel the buzz and go, okay, now it's on.

01:11:09 ◼   ► And two, mine is always on, my phone is always silenced.

01:11:14 ◼   ► So it's kind of a waste for that thing for me to be there.

01:11:19 ◼   ► And while I don't wanna take it away

01:11:21 ◼   ► from people who really care about it,

01:11:23 ◼   ► I would love for that to be replaced by something

01:11:26 ◼   ► that I could assign something else to instead.

01:11:30 ◼   ► I think that would be great.

01:11:31 ◼   ► I don't know even what I would assign to it,

01:11:33 ◼   ► but I would love to be able to assign

01:11:36 ◼   ► a different something to that button.

01:11:39 ◼   ► Maybe it's the flashlight, maybe it's the camera.

01:11:41 ◼   ► I don't know, but something to that button,

01:11:43 ◼   ► because I never, my phone's always silent,

01:11:46 ◼   ► so I don't need to worry about the ring silent switch.

01:11:49 ◼   ► - If you enjoy this show,

01:11:53 ◼   ► and you would like more of this show,

01:11:54 ◼   ► which those two things feel like they go together,

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01:12:14 ◼   ► These are sometimes challenges,

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01:12:21 ◼   ► going on in our tech lives.

01:12:23 ◼   ► So Jason's gonna be talking about some smart home stuff

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01:13:45 ◼   ► to finish out today's show.

01:13:48 ◼   ► Anonymous asks, "Could you explain what podcasters

01:13:52 ◼   ► currently mean by saying a quote,

01:13:55 ◼   ► "downturn in the ad market."

01:13:57 ◼   ► "What is going on relative to an average year

01:14:00 ◼   ► "and has Relay FM been severely impacted?"

01:14:03 ◼   ► That phrase, I don't know who said downturn in the ad market

01:14:06 ◼   ► but everyone's saying the words like this,

01:14:09 ◼   ► like downturn into something.

01:14:10 ◼   ► I think a minute ago I said downturn in the PC market,

01:14:13 ◼   ► Like this just downturn, like economic headwinds,

01:14:16 ◼   ► these things have just come together.

01:14:18 ◼   ► So I guess I'd probably be best to talk about this.

01:14:22 ◼   ► However, I don't run advertising at Relay FM anymore.

01:14:25 ◼   ► We recently promoted Carrie,

01:14:28 ◼   ► who was originally my assistant many years ago.

01:14:30 ◼   ► She is now the chief advertising officer at Relay FM

01:14:33 ◼   ► and is now running advertising, which is great for me

01:14:36 ◼   ► because I get to focus more on the content,

01:14:38 ◼   ► which is wonderful,

01:14:40 ◼   ► but I am still very involved in the business.

01:14:43 ◼   ► So basically, it's kind of weird right now.

01:14:48 ◼   ► So advertising is harder at the moment,

01:14:50 ◼   ► but not like in a beginning of the pandemic kind of hard.

01:14:55 ◼   ► So when the pandemic hit,

01:14:57 ◼   ► everybody was canceling their deals

01:14:59 ◼   ► because nobody knew if their businesses

01:15:01 ◼   ► would still be around.

01:15:03 ◼   ► Nobody would know what they should be spending their money

01:15:06 ◼   ► on should they be using their advertising budgets

01:15:08 ◼   ► to pay their people.

01:15:09 ◼   ► So it was like cancel, cancel, cancel,

01:15:11 ◼   ► and it was difficult.

01:15:12 ◼   ► But at the moment, there is either,

01:15:16 ◼   ► depending on where you live, there is a recession

01:15:18 ◼   ► or there's threat of recession.

01:15:20 ◼   ► And especially like, you know, a lot of our shows

01:15:22 ◼   ► and just podcasting in general tends to have

01:15:24 ◼   ► pretty techy focused companies that do the advertising.

01:15:29 ◼   ► Like, you know, even a lot of the direct to consumer

01:15:32 ◼   ► companies, you know, like your mattresses and stuff, right?

01:15:36 ◼   ► They tend to be pretty tech focused.

01:15:38 ◼   ► And so maybe a little bit more hesitant

01:15:40 ◼   ► of spending right now.

01:15:42 ◼   ► So what we are seeing is it is not potential catastrophe

01:15:47 ◼   ► like we saw during COVID,

01:15:50 ◼   ► but advertising is just harder to come by right now.

01:15:55 ◼   ► And across Real AFM,

01:15:56 ◼   ► certain shows are impacted by it more than others,

01:16:00 ◼   ► but every show is feeling the impact in some way.

01:16:04 ◼   ► But at the moment, and I don't foresee this changing,

01:16:08 ◼   ► this is something that we'll be able

01:16:09 ◼   ► to weather perfectly fine.

01:16:11 ◼   ► What I will say is membership is wonderful here,

01:16:14 ◼   ► and it was why we created membership in the first place

01:16:16 ◼   ► because of the risk and the threat during COVID

01:16:19 ◼   ► where we not created, but revamped significantly

01:16:22 ◼   ► our membership program.

01:16:23 ◼   ► And that helps out a lot of your favorite shows.

01:16:25 ◼   ► And so please, if a show at Relay FM that you enjoy

01:16:28 ◼   ► has a membership program, consider it

01:16:30 ◼   ► because it helps the hosts.

01:16:32 ◼   ► But yeah, we're not, we haven't been severely impacted,

01:16:35 ◼   ► but we have definitely been impacted by this

01:16:38 ◼   ► and we continue to work through it.

01:16:40 ◼   ► So it's a thing that's happening, different shows, different networks, everybody's impacted

01:16:45 ◼   ► in their own way. We've done a lot of work to try and mitigate against potential risks

01:16:51 ◼   ► over the last few years, which is why I think that even though we're feeling a pinch right now,

01:16:56 ◼   ► it's, we're more than fine. So, but please do support memberships of your shows because it

01:17:03 ◼   ► really does help the hosts. That money doesn't go to Relay and Fam, it goes directly to the hosts.

01:17:08 ◼   ► So, you know, it is something that I know our hosts enjoy

01:17:12 ◼   ► and obviously, and it provides a level of comfort

01:17:16 ◼   ► and security, which I know I feel

01:17:18 ◼   ► with the memberships that I have,

01:17:19 ◼   ► it's made me feel more comfortable than, you know,

01:17:23 ◼   ► and less, I would be a lot more wired right now for myself

01:17:27 ◼   ► if it wasn't for the membership stuff, so.

01:17:30 ◼   ► - Do you have anything to add on this, Jason?

01:17:32 ◼   ► - I don't.

01:17:33 ◼   ► - That's fine, I mean, this is my world, right?

01:17:35 ◼   ► - This is your world, and I'll just say,

01:17:38 ◼   ► It happens.

01:17:40 ◼   ► - Yeah, this is what happens.

01:17:42 ◼   ► - Ad markets go up and down.

01:17:44 ◼   ► And the beauty of the membership thing

01:17:48 ◼   ► is that membership is much more constant.

01:17:51 ◼   ► And ad markets flow up and down.

01:17:53 ◼   ► And there are gonna be times when we have four ads

01:17:58 ◼   ► and a mic at the movies.

01:18:00 ◼   ► And there are gonna be times when we have two ads.

01:18:02 ◼   ► And that's, or fewer.

01:18:05 ◼   ► And that's just,

01:18:08 ◼   ► I would call it seasonal, but it's not quite seasonal.

01:18:10 ◼   ► It's just that happens.

01:18:13 ◼   ► - Although there is also seasonal changes too.

01:18:16 ◼   ► - Yeah, that's also true, right?

01:18:18 ◼   ► But there's the mega, like the trend of like,

01:18:22 ◼   ► just things come and go and it just happens, right?

01:18:27 ◼   ► And I've been through a bunch of those cycles

01:18:28 ◼   ► and it just, you know, it happens.

01:18:32 ◼   ► There's nothing you can do, but kind of soldier on.

01:18:35 ◼   ► - We've been running Relay for nine years this year.

01:18:37 ◼   ► And I've seen this happen a handful of times.

01:18:41 ◼   ► And I've also seen the seasonal stuff.

01:18:42 ◼   ► Like, a reason you may be hearing a lot of people

01:18:45 ◼   ► talk about this now is like,

01:18:46 ◼   ► so we've been running this company for nine years.

01:18:49 ◼   ► Every year for the last nine years,

01:18:50 ◼   ► April has been the month

01:18:52 ◼   ► where we have the least advertising spend,

01:18:54 ◼   ► like companies buying into ads.

01:18:57 ◼   ► I know, I feel like I know where this is.

01:18:59 ◼   ► April for a lot of companies

01:19:01 ◼   ► is the start of the financial year.

01:19:03 ◼   ► So a lot of companies don't have their budget set

01:19:05 ◼   ► when it comes to April.

01:19:07 ◼   ► But that's something that you need nine years of experience sometimes to understand.

01:19:11 ◼   ► So...

01:19:13 ◼   ► We're doing fine.

01:19:13 ◼   ► But thank you for your support.

01:19:16 ◼   ► Max says, "My wife and I recently purchased our first home.

01:19:19 ◼   ► The garage is going to become my new office, studio, game room... place.

01:19:24 ◼   ► I was wondering what advice and recommendations, Jason, you had for working and recording in a garage or non-ideal acoustic environment."

01:19:34 ◼   ► Well, my garage is actually a pretty good

01:19:36 ◼   ► acoustic environment.

01:19:37 ◼   ► So I don't know if I have a lot of advice.

01:19:40 ◼   ► What we have, it was bare wood at the top.

01:19:45 ◼   ► We insulated and the insulation is actually in

01:19:48 ◼   ► with these kind of like, it's almost like tarps.

01:19:52 ◼   ► It's plastic material that's taped.

01:19:53 ◼   ► As a result, there's no reflection off of the ceiling

01:19:56 ◼   ► and the ceiling is high.

01:19:58 ◼   ► I have some curtains that I hung mostly just to,

01:20:02 ◼   ► so I don't have to stare at the storage

01:20:04 ◼   ► that's the other part of our garage,

01:20:05 ◼   ► but curtains are great for this.

01:20:07 ◼   ► Putting stuff, furniture, stuff on the walls,

01:20:11 ◼   ► anything that like makes the echo deflect or soften,

01:20:16 ◼   ► books on bookshelves, things like that, that all helps.

01:20:19 ◼   ► - Carpets.

01:20:21 ◼   ► - Yeah, carpets on the floor.

01:20:22 ◼   ► All of these things are helpful in doing this.

01:20:28 ◼   ► And then, I mean, for,

01:20:31 ◼   ► And that's the acoustic environment.

01:20:33 ◼   ► That's not necessarily for podcasting.

01:20:34 ◼   ► That's also just to make it less echoey

01:20:36 ◼   ► and kind of annoying.

01:20:37 ◼   ► Beyond that, I don't know.

01:20:40 ◼   ► I mean, it depends.

01:20:41 ◼   ► Do you have an insulated garage door

01:20:42 ◼   ► or are you gonna be hearing everything from the street?

01:20:45 ◼   ► Mine is lightly insulated.

01:20:46 ◼   ► If I had known I was gonna work out here,

01:20:48 ◼   ► I would have had it be max insulation, but I didn't.

01:20:50 ◼   ► I have a door.

01:20:51 ◼   ► Door is important.

01:20:52 ◼   ► I can close the door.

01:20:54 ◼   ► That's a big, important thing.

01:20:56 ◼   ► I don't know.

01:20:57 ◼   ► I don't know what else.

01:20:58 ◼   ► You have any thoughts about this?

01:20:59 ◼   ► - Well, I did think I am in a horrifically poor environment

01:21:04 ◼   ► for acoustics in my studio.

01:21:07 ◼   ► It's just a very big room with concrete floors

01:21:10 ◼   ► and brick walls and it's perfectly square,

01:21:11 ◼   ► like rectangular, right?

01:21:13 ◼   ► So it's terrible.

01:21:14 ◼   ► And one of the, I mitigated this in a few ways.

01:21:18 ◼   ► One, you turn me on to the idea of carpet remnants.

01:21:22 ◼   ► So there were these companies that like,

01:21:23 ◼   ► they have these large pieces of carpet,

01:21:27 ◼   ► which they turn into rugs effectively.

01:21:29 ◼   ► and they could be offcuts from fitting out an office building or something.

01:21:34 ◼   ► So we were able to get a very, very large rug made to our specifications,

01:21:38 ◼   ► which helped a lot and also was just comfortable.

01:21:40 ◼   ► But for me, I mean, you probably don't need this, Max,

01:21:44 ◼   ► but for where I record,

01:21:46 ◼   ► I use acoustic blankets on my left and right side,

01:21:49 ◼   ► and that makes a huge difference for why you don't hear a ton of echo in my recording,

01:21:56 ◼   ► where if I took these blankets away, you would.

01:21:58 ◼   ► I mean, I even hear it if the, because the blankets kind of, they kind of box me in on

01:22:02 ◼   ► the sides. And if one of them is angled a little bit, written the way it shouldn't be,

01:22:06 ◼   ► I can hear more echo. So that's the thing that I use, but you probably don't need that.

01:22:10 ◼   ► And also these are, they're super ugly, these acoustic curtains.

01:22:14 ◼   ► A larger piece of advice for anybody who's living in it or working in a converted space

01:22:19 ◼   ► like this. So like we could have, a lot of people in this neighborhood, um, convert the

01:22:23 ◼   ► garages and they just turn them into rooms, right? They turn them into rooms or multiple

01:22:26 ◼   ► rooms in the house. And we didn't do that. We didn't want to spend the money on that.

01:22:29 ◼   ► We didn't want to do that. But what we did do, so it's bare concrete floor, right? So

01:22:34 ◼   ► what we did do is something that Mike mentioned in passing there. We went to a local carpet

01:22:42 ◼   ► store that specializes in remnants. And we got like a 12 foot by 12 foot or 12 by 10.

01:22:50 ◼   ► an enormous carpet remnant.

01:22:54 ◼   ► So they carpeted an office building or something,

01:22:56 ◼   ► but they're left with like large amounts of carpet.

01:22:59 ◼   ► So I got a pad that they cut to that size

01:23:04 ◼   ► and that remnant, which they stitch up

01:23:06 ◼   ► so it's like it's an enormous rug, essentially.

01:23:09 ◼   ► It's stitched up on the ends.

01:23:10 ◼   ► It's not ragged on the ends.

01:23:12 ◼   ► It's really nice.

01:23:13 ◼   ► And it's got backing.

01:23:14 ◼   ► And then it's got the pad underneath.

01:23:15 ◼   ► And as a result, my part of the office is carpeted,

01:23:20 ◼   ► even though I'm on a bare garage floor.

01:23:23 ◼   ► And it improves the quality of life so much

01:23:26 ◼   ► to have something that,

01:23:27 ◼   ► so if you're not gonna convert,

01:23:29 ◼   ► 'cause this question seems to suggest

01:23:32 ◼   ► that it's gonna be the garage still,

01:23:35 ◼   ► I would say that's a big quality of life improvement.

01:23:38 ◼   ► If you've got ways to,

01:23:39 ◼   ► like I painted the walls a color that pleases me.

01:23:42 ◼   ► We actually put up some sheet rock

01:23:43 ◼   ► 'cause there was some bare exposed wall.

01:23:45 ◼   ► But like the carpet was really important

01:23:47 ◼   ► 'cause my first few months working out here,

01:23:48 ◼   ► I was working on bare concrete and it was cold

01:23:51 ◼   ► and unpleasant and just being in a carpeted space,

01:23:55 ◼   ► it feels more finished and real,

01:23:58 ◼   ► even though I could spend a weekend

01:24:01 ◼   ► and pull everything out of our garage and park a car in it.

01:24:04 ◼   ► I'm not gonna do that, but I could,

01:24:06 ◼   ► because we decided not to spend the money

01:24:10 ◼   ► to permanently convert it into part

01:24:11 ◼   ► of the interior of the house.

01:24:12 ◼   ► - And so I wanna give people an idea of this

01:24:14 ◼   ► 'cause I think it explains

01:24:16 ◼   ► that the why these things are a good deal.

01:24:18 ◼   ► I don't necessarily endorse this,

01:24:19 ◼   ► but we found a company called Designer Carpet in the UK.

01:24:22 ◼   ► I got a six by four meter carpet rug for 350 pounds.

01:24:27 ◼   ► Which is just like such a great deal.

01:24:33 ◼   ► It's like, it's huge.

01:24:34 ◼   ► We have delivery, they delivered it to the studio.

01:24:36 ◼   ► - So that's like 18 by 12 feet.

01:24:38 ◼   ► That's a very, very large.

01:24:39 ◼   ► - It's huge.

01:24:40 ◼   ► - Very large.

01:24:42 ◼   ► But again, you could also pick it up

01:24:44 ◼   ► and take it somewhere else.

01:24:46 ◼   ► It's not permanent, but it feels like you're in a actual,

01:24:51 ◼   ► nice carpeted space.

01:24:52 ◼   ► So yeah, big remnant fans here.

01:24:57 ◼   ► - Recommended for all rental accommodations, this idea.

01:25:00 ◼   ► 'Cause you can just put it down, take it up.

01:25:02 ◼   ► And they cut it to size. - Not permanent.

01:25:04 ◼   ► - It's fantastic. - Yeah.

01:25:05 ◼   ► - And Ben asks, "How much storage do you use on your iPhone?"

01:25:09 ◼   ► So I'll start here, so you have the ability

01:25:13 ◼   ► to go and open the part of your phone.

01:25:15 ◼   ► I don't have my phone with me, so that's not gonna.

01:25:18 ◼   ► - Well.

01:25:18 ◼   ► - Okay, I'll just go, I'll be back.

01:25:19 ◼   ► You just go on. - Jason's gonna go get it.

01:25:21 ◼   ► I'll tell people about mine. - You go on.

01:25:22 ◼   ► - So I have a 512 gigabyte storage size on my iPhone.

01:25:27 ◼   ► I upped to 512 because I like to keep all of my photos

01:25:31 ◼   ► on my device and I was getting to the point a few years ago

01:25:34 ◼   ► where I was starting to get close to the 256.

01:25:38 ◼   ► So, and I have passed that now.

01:25:42 ◼   ► So I decided to go up.

01:25:44 ◼   ► So I use 287 gigabytes of storage on my phone.

01:25:49 ◼   ► The vast majority of that is my photos.

01:25:53 ◼   ► And I just like to have my photos library all there.

01:25:56 ◼   ► So if I ever wanted to pull up an image,

01:25:57 ◼   ► I can do that and I don't have to go elsewhere.

01:26:01 ◼   ► And I expect that for me,

01:26:02 ◼   ► I will just keep over time increasing.

01:26:05 ◼   ► Like I can stay on the 512 for years now,

01:26:09 ◼   ► because I'm at 287 now.

01:26:11 ◼   ► I reckon I've got like a good amount of time

01:26:14 ◼   ► before I would need to upgrade to a larger potential size.

01:26:17 ◼   ► I don't even know if Apple does.

01:26:18 ◼   ► I don't remember a larger iPhone size in 512,

01:26:20 ◼   ► but they will eventually,

01:26:21 ◼   ► 'cause that's just the way that these things go.

01:26:23 ◼   ► - No, no, there's a terabyte. - Is it a terabyte?

01:26:25 ◼   ► Yeah, so I was saying that, yeah, so that I have,

01:26:28 ◼   ► I pulled it out now to get the exact number,

01:26:30 ◼   ► but I think I'm like 161 gigabytes of my 287,

01:26:35 ◼   ► it's just photos.

01:26:37 ◼   ► - Yeah, makes sense, right?

01:26:39 ◼   ► - Where are you at?

01:26:40 ◼   ► 48 gigabytes.

01:26:42 ◼   ► - Of total storage used?

01:26:44 ◼   ► - Yeah.

01:26:45 ◼   ► - So you don't keep your photos on the phone.

01:26:46 ◼   ► So I think you said you can't, right?

01:26:47 ◼   ► 'Cause it's just too much.

01:26:48 ◼   ► - Yes, they don't make an iPhone big enough

01:26:51 ◼   ► even now for everything.

01:26:52 ◼   ► And so it's managing that storage for me.

01:26:54 ◼   ► Although it tells me there's 18 gigabytes

01:26:56 ◼   ► of photo data on there.

01:26:59 ◼   ► But it's not the whole library by a lot.

01:27:01 ◼   ► And then I have some music on there

01:27:03 ◼   ► because that's the thing you listen to.

01:27:04 ◼   ► I mean, I went to New Zealand with this phone, right?

01:27:06 ◼   ► So I loaded a lot of music on there

01:27:08 ◼   ► that I could listen to on the flight.

01:27:10 ◼   ► but I didn't load a lot of movies

01:27:11 ◼   ► because I put that on my iPad.

01:27:13 ◼   ► - Of course.

01:27:14 ◼   ► - So it's, I don't use a lot of storage

01:27:16 ◼   ► is what we've learned here.

01:27:18 ◼   ► And then, yeah, presumably I got a lot of podcasts on there.

01:27:23 ◼   ► That's about it.

01:27:27 ◼   ► - Yeah, I have for some reason four gigabytes in YouTube,

01:27:31 ◼   ► two gigabytes in Overcast,

01:27:33 ◼   ► Marvel snap is two and a half gigabytes.