Upgrade

00:00:00 ◼   ► (upbeat music)

00:00:02 ◼   ► From Relay FM, this is Upgrade, episode 451.

00:00:12 ◼   ► Today's show is brought to you by Ladder,

00:00:15 ◼   ► Text Expander and Setapp.

00:00:16 ◼   ► My name is Mike Hurley, I'm joined by Jason Snell.

00:00:19 ◼   ► Hi, Jason.

00:00:20 ◼   ► - Hi, Mike.

00:00:21 ◼   ► It's good to be here.

00:00:23 ◼   ► I have a little more energy today, I don't know why.

00:00:25 ◼   ► I think it's 'cause my dog wakes me up

00:00:26 ◼   ► at six in the morning now.

00:00:27 ◼   ► So I'm more awake for Upgrade.

00:00:29 ◼   ► So the dog is doing a service, important service for this show to get me up early on Monday morning.

00:00:35 ◼   ► You know, before we get to Snow Talk this week, you know, we're starting a new week.

00:00:38 ◼   ► I just want to put energy out into the world that I would really love to find out the dates for the RubyDC.

00:00:43 ◼   ► You know?

00:00:44 ◼   ► At this point, I would really like that information.

00:00:48 ◼   ► So if anyone's been sitting there and thinking, "I'm not sure when to tell people."

00:00:52 ◼   ► Is this the week?

00:00:53 ◼   ► If you could make it this week, I would appreciate it, is what I'm saying.

00:00:59 ◼   ► I have a lot of empathy going on right now,

00:01:03 ◼   ► because of course, as one of the only people

00:01:08 ◼   ► who I know, especially in our business,

00:01:12 ◼   ► who actually lives in the Bay Area,

00:01:15 ◼   ► it matters so much less for me

00:01:18 ◼   ► than literally everybody else.

00:01:20 ◼   ► - Yeah, well, lucky you.

00:01:21 ◼   ► - My kids are no longer in public school

00:01:24 ◼   ► here in the Bay Area, so I'm not even aware of,

00:01:28 ◼   ► but it's almost always literally the last week of school.

00:01:30 ◼   ► There's usually a graduation conflict.

00:01:32 ◼   ► I mean, it's gonna be the fifth through the ninth, right?

00:01:34 ◼   ► Like the, right?

00:01:36 ◼   ► I mean, it's almost certain

00:01:38 ◼   ► that it'd be the fifth through the ninth.

00:01:40 ◼   ► - Why?

00:01:41 ◼   ► - I'd like to announce, hi, this is Jason Stell.

00:01:43 ◼   ► I'm proud to announce that WWDC is gonna be held.

00:01:46 ◼   ► Sorry, let me try that again.

00:01:48 ◼   ► This is Tim.

00:01:48 ◼   ► We're very excited that WWDC 2023,

00:01:53 ◼   ► where we're gonna have all the great stuff

00:01:55 ◼   ► that you love from last year, plus more great stuff

00:01:57 ◼   ► It's a mystery, do do do, will all be happening

00:02:00 ◼   ► June 5th through the 9th at Apple Park in Cupertino.

00:02:04 ◼   ► - Wow, thanks Tim. - Select developers

00:02:06 ◼   ► will be invited, will be in touch about how you can apply.

00:02:10 ◼   ► And we can't wait to see you all

00:02:14 ◼   ► whether you're here in reality

00:02:17 ◼   ► or whether you're here virtually.

00:02:19 ◼   ► Wink. - Tim sneaking it in there.

00:02:22 ◼   ► - Tim out. - This is a big get for us.

00:02:24 ◼   ► So appreciate that.

00:02:26 ◼   ► Thanks Tim.

00:02:27 ◼   ► try to do his accent, which I'm sorry about,

00:02:29 ◼   ► but it's Monday morning, what do you want from me?

00:02:30 ◼   ► - It's probably for the best.

00:02:31 ◼   ► I mean, I agree with you that the fifth to the ninth

00:02:34 ◼   ► makes the most sense, but I, you know,

00:02:36 ◼   ► 12th to the 16th could also be it, right?

00:02:39 ◼   ► But I expect, yes, it would probably be fifth to the ninth,

00:02:42 ◼   ► but I can't go ahead and make any bookings

00:02:44 ◼   ► for plane tickets on a, this is what I think it's gonna be.

00:02:48 ◼   ► - Right, let me check, this is an important thing

00:02:50 ◼   ► for me to check, is let me check the school calendar.

00:02:53 ◼   ► Last day of school's the ninth,

00:02:54 ◼   ► so that would be the week, right?

00:02:56 ◼   ► If they're assuming that they do this all just to vex

00:02:58 ◼   ► people whose kids are in school,

00:03:00 ◼   ► including everybody who works at Apple,

00:03:03 ◼   ► whose kids are in school,

00:03:04 ◼   ► the last week of school is that week.

00:03:06 ◼   ► So sure, let's do WWDC that week.

00:03:09 ◼   ► That'll be the week.

00:03:10 ◼   ► So yeah, okay.

00:03:11 ◼   ► Well, you can take my word for it or not.

00:03:13 ◼   ► Don't take my word for it.

00:03:14 ◼   ► - Well, I'm not taking your word for it.

00:03:15 ◼   ► I'm taking Tim's word for it.

00:03:16 ◼   ► He just came and told us.

00:03:17 ◼   ► - Yeah.

00:03:18 ◼   ► - I just want it.

00:03:19 ◼   ► I just want the information.

00:03:20 ◼   ► I just want it sooner rather than later.

00:03:21 ◼   ► - I get it.

00:03:23 ◼   ► I get it.

00:03:24 ◼   ► - Because every day,

00:03:25 ◼   ► though plane tickets just get more and more expensive.

00:03:28 ◼   ► - I know.

00:03:29 ◼   ► - I have a Snell Talk question for you

00:03:31 ◼   ► that comes from Janice.

00:03:32 ◼   ► Janice wants to know, since your iPhone lives mostly

00:03:35 ◼   ► on your charger, Jason Snell,

00:03:37 ◼   ► and you mentioned that you often leave your house

00:03:39 ◼   ► with just the Apple Watch, could you do without an iPhone?

00:03:43 ◼   ► And for a tangent, what would it take?

00:03:46 ◼   ► - (sighs)

00:03:48 ◼   ► I can't because there are certain circumstances

00:03:51 ◼   ► when I do need it, right?

00:03:52 ◼   ► Like if I'm out and about,

00:03:54 ◼   ► 'cause the Apple Watch, I guess that is the,

00:03:58 ◼   ► what would it take?

00:03:59 ◼   ► Like I can't take pictures when I have the Apple Watch.

00:04:01 ◼   ► I can't go into Slack and check it out with the Apple Watch

00:04:05 ◼   ► and check in with people.

00:04:07 ◼   ► It's very reactive kind of thing.

00:04:09 ◼   ► The Apple Watch is super minimal.

00:04:10 ◼   ► I will get some push notifications.

00:04:12 ◼   ► I can send texts and I can listen to my podcasts,

00:04:17 ◼   ► but all the other stuff that I do,

00:04:20 ◼   ► the iPhone will let me do that portably

00:04:23 ◼   ► in some way or another.

00:04:25 ◼   ► The Apple Watch really is limited.

00:04:27 ◼   ► So I don't think it's an interesting thought experiment,

00:04:31 ◼   ► but I think the answer is it would take a lot of apps

00:04:35 ◼   ► that currently I rely on that run on my iPhone

00:04:40 ◼   ► to run independently on my Apple Watch.

00:04:43 ◼   ► And I just don't think that that's in the cards

00:04:45 ◼   ► for most of these apps.

00:04:47 ◼   ► So, you know, like Slack, I do a lot of work in Slack,

00:04:50 ◼   ► And all the Slack will let you like get a notification.

00:04:53 ◼   ► And I don't think it'll let you reply

00:04:55 ◼   ► or I've had trouble with that.

00:04:57 ◼   ► But like what I can't do is go in and check the,

00:05:02 ◼   ► you know, check the emergency channel

00:05:04 ◼   ► and see what's going on or whatever.

00:05:05 ◼   ► Like I can't do that.

00:05:07 ◼   ► I can't send, you know, a message to,

00:05:11 ◼   ► like we're driving to curling and we're stuck in traffic.

00:05:14 ◼   ► And I can't send a message to the channel for our league

00:05:17 ◼   ► saying we're gonna be a little bit late.

00:05:19 ◼   ► I can't do that in Slack because it just doesn't work.

00:05:24 ◼   ► So I think that's the fundamental problem is,

00:05:28 ◼   ► so I can get, you know, I can lock and unlock my front door

00:05:30 ◼   ► and I can listen to podcasts and stuff like that.

00:05:33 ◼   ► And it's like enough for me to be out for an hour.

00:05:36 ◼   ► But if I'm actually like out and about,

00:05:39 ◼   ► I need more than that.

00:05:40 ◼   ► And, you know, certainly when we were on our trip

00:05:42 ◼   ► to New Zealand, like when we're in the car,

00:05:44 ◼   ► driving 1500 miles around or we're walking around

00:05:47 ◼   ► or whatever, like the phone being with me was a good thing

00:05:52 ◼   ► because it's like, I can take pictures, I can send texts,

00:05:55 ◼   ► I can send pictures to people from the places that we are,

00:05:58 ◼   ► which was a lot of fun.

00:05:59 ◼   ► Yeah, so I think it would take a lot.

00:06:02 ◼   ► And I think a lot of like, camera is a great example.

00:06:04 ◼   ► Like I don't know how there's a workable Apple Watch camera.

00:06:07 ◼   ► Right, I don't know how there is that.

00:06:09 ◼   ► I already forego when I walk the dog

00:06:11 ◼   ► and I just have the Apple Watch, I am foregoing pictures.

00:06:14 ◼   ► I was walking the dog the other day

00:06:16 ◼   ► and we got to a pretty spot

00:06:17 ◼   ► and I actually had brought my phone for that.

00:06:21 ◼   ► Most 'cause I had driven and I was uncomfortable.

00:06:24 ◼   ► I'm not uncomfortable leaving the house

00:06:26 ◼   ► to walk around my neighborhood,

00:06:27 ◼   ► but I am uncomfortable driving

00:06:29 ◼   ► without having my phone with me.

00:06:31 ◼   ► It's like a bridge too far.

00:06:33 ◼   ► So, and I took a picture of a beautiful view

00:06:36 ◼   ► from that dog walk and I thought,

00:06:38 ◼   ► "Well, this is something I can do with my phone

00:06:41 ◼   ► that I can't do without my phone."

00:06:43 ◼   ► So I think these are the reasons why it's unlikely,

00:06:47 ◼   ► even though I don't use my phone a lot,

00:06:49 ◼   ► if I'm in, it's mostly something we were talking about

00:06:52 ◼   ► before we started, I work at home, right?

00:06:55 ◼   ► But when I am in a context, when I am out and about,

00:06:58 ◼   ► I am still relying on my iPhone, just like everybody else is,

00:07:01 ◼   ► I'm just not out and about very often.

00:07:03 ◼   ► And when I'm at home, yeah, I'm not sitting on the couch,

00:07:05 ◼   ► scrolling on my iPhone, at that point I'll use an iPad.

00:07:09 ◼   ► - If you would like to send in a question

00:07:12 ◼   ► for us to open a future episode of the show,

00:07:15 ◼   ► just go to upgradefeedback.com and send us

00:07:18 ◼   ► in a Snow Talk question.

00:07:20 ◼   ► I have some follow up now.

00:07:21 ◼   ► So we've been talking a lot about SMS codes and stuff

00:07:24 ◼   ► like that, right?

00:07:25 ◼   ► So like the idea of two-factor codes coming in via SMS

00:07:28 ◼   ► and that kind of stuff.

00:07:29 ◼   ► Patrick wrote in to say, "You can eliminate

00:07:32 ◼   ► having to deal with a bunch of random phone numbers

00:07:34 ◼   ► from SMS codes clogging up your messages app

00:07:37 ◼   ► by going to Settings, Messages, Unknown and Spam,

00:07:41 ◼   ► and turn on the option for filter unknown senders.

00:07:45 ◼   ► Then when you use SMS auto-filling and stuff like that,

00:07:48 ◼   ► when a message comes in, you select it,

00:07:50 ◼   ► it will mark the message as read

00:07:52 ◼   ► and will tuck it away under unknown senders

00:07:54 ◼   ► so you'll never be bothered by it again.

00:07:56 ◼   ► I'm not sure why this is disabled by default, says Patrick.

00:08:00 ◼   ► So when you turn this setting on, I tried that out today,

00:08:03 ◼   ► it actually creates like a new like back button in messages,

00:08:06 ◼   ► which currently it says edit,

00:08:08 ◼   ► but then it changes to filters.

00:08:10 ◼   ► and then you have a set of filters,

00:08:12 ◼   ► like kind of like email filters,

00:08:14 ◼   ► you know, like inbox sent and that kind of stuff,

00:08:16 ◼   ► and you get all messages, known senders,

00:08:19 ◼   ► unknown senders, and unread messages.

00:08:21 ◼   ► So you get those filters that you can then

00:08:23 ◼   ► choose which one you want.

00:08:25 ◼   ► - Yep.

00:08:26 ◼   ► - I didn't know this was there,

00:08:27 ◼   ► or I'd forgotten that this was there.

00:08:29 ◼   ► I turned it on, but the thing I was confused about,

00:08:31 ◼   ► I turned it back off again,

00:08:32 ◼   ► for other reasons I looked in a minute.

00:08:34 ◼   ► The thing that I don't know,

00:08:36 ◼   ► because it hasn't happened to me yet,

00:08:37 ◼   ► is like, let's imagine that I'm living

00:08:39 ◼   ► in the known messages or known senders area,

00:08:42 ◼   ► which probably is the logical one.

00:08:44 ◼   ► If I get a text from someone that's an unknown sender,

00:08:49 ◼   ► how easily is this shown to me?

00:08:51 ◼   ► Like, does it still badge the messages app?

00:08:53 ◼   ► Like, how do I know?

00:08:54 ◼   ► - Yeah, that's the, I believe it is badged

00:08:57 ◼   ► if you have badges.

00:08:58 ◼   ► I believe if you tap on the notification,

00:09:00 ◼   ► it goes to that in the unknown senders filter,

00:09:04 ◼   ► which means that to get back the next time you use the app

00:09:07 ◼   ► to actually see your known senders,

00:09:09 ◼   ► I believe you have to swipe back up to that top level

00:09:12 ◼   ► that now exists and then go in.

00:09:14 ◼   ► And that is when I turned it off too.

00:09:16 ◼   ► 'Cause I turned this on a few weeks ago, months ago,

00:09:20 ◼   ► as a way to possibly deal with a lot of this kind of garbage

00:09:23 ◼   ► that we then talked about.

00:09:24 ◼   ► And what I realized is it creates a level of overhead

00:09:28 ◼   ► and management inside messages that I found unwelcome.

00:09:32 ◼   ► Like I don't, I really don't wanna manage

00:09:36 ◼   ► message mailboxes, right?

00:09:38 ◼   ► I don't want that.

00:09:39 ◼   ► I would rather have a,

00:09:41 ◼   ► I'd almost rather have a toggle show hide kind of thing

00:09:45 ◼   ► where it's like show all or show only known

00:09:47 ◼   ► or something like that.

00:09:48 ◼   ► But instead they're using, again,

00:09:50 ◼   ► a perfectly valid iPhone iOS metaphor,

00:09:52 ◼   ► which is you go back out, it's basically like a drawer.

00:09:54 ◼   ► You go back out to the top and then tap into another one.

00:09:58 ◼   ► But I just, I found myself in a place

00:10:00 ◼   ► I didn't wanna be way too often.

00:10:02 ◼   ► So I just turned that feature off.

00:10:04 ◼   ► - Okay, you answered it for me then.

00:10:05 ◼   ► But maybe you out there didn't even know

00:10:07 ◼   ► this just did like me and now you might want that.

00:10:09 ◼   ► So that was Patrick's follow up.

00:10:11 ◼   ► - Yeah, maybe you try it.

00:10:12 ◼   ► I feel like if I were talking to somebody

00:10:14 ◼   ► on the messages team at Apple,

00:10:17 ◼   ► that would be my question for them is,

00:10:19 ◼   ► do you think that the perfectly valid,

00:10:22 ◼   ► well-worn drawer metaphor where there's this hierarchy

00:10:27 ◼   ► that gets added on top that is all those filters

00:10:31 ◼   ► is the most effective way of dealing with the idea

00:10:35 ◼   ► that you've got people you know and people you don't know.

00:10:38 ◼   ► I will give them credit.

00:10:40 ◼   ► Like one of the things that they've done

00:10:41 ◼   ► that's really great is they've added favorites

00:10:43 ◼   ► and I use those.

00:10:43 ◼   ► So I've got favorite contexts that are pinned at the top.

00:10:47 ◼   ► That's great.

00:10:48 ◼   ► And I know that it's chronological, right?

00:10:50 ◼   ► So you can't have like a strip of people

00:10:52 ◼   ► and then a line and then the unknown below it

00:10:54 ◼   ► because theoretically your known conversations go on,

00:10:57 ◼   ► you know, forever basically down there.

00:10:59 ◼   ► I get that this is a hard problem.

00:11:01 ◼   ► My reaction to the drawer thing suggests

00:11:04 ◼   ► that if I was talking to that theoretical person

00:11:07 ◼   ► who worked with messages team,

00:11:09 ◼   ► I would say to them, that suggests

00:11:10 ◼   ► that maybe there should be a different approach, right?

00:11:13 ◼   ► I don't know what that approach is,

00:11:14 ◼   ► and I don't know if there is a good different approach,

00:11:17 ◼   ► but what I do know is I turned that on,

00:11:20 ◼   ► I thought, oh, this is a good idea,

00:11:21 ◼   ► used it for like a day, and I turned it back off.

00:11:25 ◼   ► - So you remember a long time ago,

00:11:27 ◼   ► we spent a bunch of time talking about Ted Lasso merch,

00:11:29 ◼   ► that there was none, and then there was some,

00:11:32 ◼   ► and it wasn't that great.

00:11:33 ◼   ► Well, in Ted Lasso season three, Nike is now making a bunch of merchandise, t-shirts, sweatshirts,

00:11:40 ◼   ► and team jerseys, like actual football shirts.

00:11:44 ◼   ► Yes, they're in the show when they play.

00:11:47 ◼   ► I know that in episode one they don't play a match, right?

00:11:51 ◼   ► I've seen the first three.

00:11:53 ◼   ► Look at me, look at this guy.

00:11:54 ◼   ► Jason, can I tell you a tale of woe here?

00:11:57 ◼   ► Oh yeah, sure.

00:11:58 ◼   ► I also have access to this.

00:12:00 ◼   ► The screeners?

00:12:01 ◼   ► I have access to the screeners app.

00:12:02 ◼   ► - Yeah. - A couple of weeks ago.

00:12:03 ◼   ► So then I had "Ted Lasso" episode one,

00:12:05 ◼   ► and I thought, I'm gonna hold it for a bit.

00:12:06 ◼   ► I didn't watch it.

00:12:07 ◼   ► Then I tried to log in one day,

00:12:08 ◼   ► and my access had been completely removed

00:12:10 ◼   ► to the screen. - Me too.

00:12:11 ◼   ► Same, exactly. - Oh, okay.

00:12:12 ◼   ► - Same thing happened to me, yeah.

00:12:13 ◼   ► - I contacted them, and they reinstated my access,

00:12:16 ◼   ► but I no longer have access to "Ted Lasso."

00:12:18 ◼   ► All the other shows, - Oh, no!

00:12:19 ◼   ► - but not "Ted Lasso." - Oh, no!

00:12:21 ◼   ► - And I emailed them and said,

00:12:22 ◼   ► "Can I have access to 'Ted Lasso' again, please?"

00:12:24 ◼   ► And they did not respond to me.

00:12:25 ◼   ► So I don't know what I did, - Wow.

00:12:27 ◼   ► but now I'm no Ted for me.

00:12:29 ◼   ► - I think they lowered the boom on Ted Lasso access

00:12:31 ◼   ► 'cause it's so high profile.

00:12:33 ◼   ► They came back to me and they said,

00:12:35 ◼   ► and this was with Apple PR helping me get in touch

00:12:38 ◼   ► with the people who do the screeners.

00:12:40 ◼   ► And they still came back to me and said,

00:12:41 ◼   ► okay, send me your like reasons why you need this.

00:12:46 ◼   ► - Oh.

00:12:47 ◼   ► - Yeah, and so I said,

00:12:49 ◼   ► well, I discussed streaming on upgrade and downstream.

00:12:51 ◼   ► And then I'm also the co-host of a podcast about Ted Lasso

00:12:55 ◼   ► and a podcast about For All Mankind.

00:12:56 ◼   ► And then they're like, okay, fine.

00:12:58 ◼   ► - 'Cause they gave me my access back, no problem.

00:13:00 ◼   ► They're like, oh yeah, sorry about that.

00:13:01 ◼   ► And they just gave me my access back.

00:13:03 ◼   ► And I have all my other shows in there,

00:13:04 ◼   ► which I have lots of shows in there,

00:13:05 ◼   ► which I'm very thankful for, but no Ted.

00:13:07 ◼   ► So no Ted for me.

00:13:09 ◼   ► - That's rough.

00:13:10 ◼   ► Well, anyway, having seen the first three episodes,

00:13:11 ◼   ► thumbs up, I think it's going great.

00:13:13 ◼   ► So people should look forward to that.

00:13:14 ◼   ► And they do play matches and they are in the,

00:13:16 ◼   ► the Nike kit is part of the,

00:13:18 ◼   ► they don't mention that they got a Nike kit,

00:13:20 ◼   ► but the Nike kit's in the show.

00:13:21 ◼   ► So obviously they made a deal, Warner Brothers,

00:13:24 ◼   ► the producers of the show,

00:13:24 ◼   ► made a deal with Nike to outfit this.

00:13:27 ◼   ► - Well, do you remember months and months and months ago

00:13:30 ◼   ► that Nike teased it?

00:13:32 ◼   ► - Yeah, yeah, oh yeah.

00:13:33 ◼   ► - Yeah, I think we spoke about it.

00:13:34 ◼   ► - Yeah, this has been rolling out for a while,

00:13:35 ◼   ► but now it's available.

00:13:37 ◼   ► You can get the Richmond jersey, actual soccer jersey,

00:13:42 ◼   ► and then they've also got some other merch

00:13:44 ◼   ► that's got the Nike swoosh and got the Richmond shield.

00:13:46 ◼   ► - It's gonna be high quality too.

00:13:48 ◼   ► - And it's in the show and they're in FIFA too,

00:13:51 ◼   ► which I love.

00:13:52 ◼   ► They're in FIFA, you can play as AFC Richmond.

00:13:54 ◼   ► There's a great story about how Brett Goldstein

00:13:58 ◼   ► played FIFA against his nephew or something.

00:14:01 ◼   ► As Roy Kent, and in the game, Roy Kent goes, "Ugh,"

00:14:05 ◼   ► at one point when he scores or something,

00:14:08 ◼   ► and then he turns to his nephew and goes, "Ugh,"

00:14:10 ◼   ► the same thing.

00:14:11 ◼   ► It's a highlight of his life that he did that.

00:14:13 ◼   ► Ted Lasso, with season three, which might be the last,

00:14:17 ◼   ► who knows, it's a great mystery.

00:14:19 ◼   ► Nobody's saying, they're all just saying these.

00:14:21 ◼   ► They've all been coached, right?

00:14:22 ◼   ► Which is like-- - This is the story.

00:14:24 ◼   ► It's the end of the story that we originally planned

00:14:26 ◼   ► on telling and I mean, I suspect that some of it is just,

00:14:30 ◼   ► they're being coy because the results of season three

00:14:33 ◼   ► will indicate what happens next

00:14:35 ◼   ► and they're not gonna talk about it.

00:14:37 ◼   ► But anyway, yeah, they've gotten their merch story together

00:14:41 ◼   ► now after a couple of years of trying to figure it out.

00:14:45 ◼   ► And so, yeah, and if people wanna hear me talk

00:14:48 ◼   ► about episode one, "Football's Life" is the podcast

00:14:52 ◼   ► over on the incomparable, it's a rotating cast.

00:14:54 ◼   ► So I'm not gonna do episode two, but I did episode one,

00:14:57 ◼   ► which I mostly liked.

00:14:59 ◼   ► There are a couple of parts of it that I criticized.

00:15:00 ◼   ► I feel like Ted Lasso takes a little time

00:15:03 ◼   ► to get into the vibe a little bit.

00:15:05 ◼   ► - So I haven't seen the first episode.

00:15:06 ◼   ► I'm waiting to get a couple in and then I'll start.

00:15:09 ◼   ► - Yeah, so anyway, but it's good to have it back.

00:15:12 ◼   ► And if you're, by the way, if people haven't,

00:15:14 ◼   ► we talk about this stuff when it gets like announced

00:15:16 ◼   ► that they're going to make it, and then it's like years pass.

00:15:19 ◼   ► I will say, if you're looking, if you like Ted Lasso

00:15:21 ◼   ► when you're looking for something

00:15:22 ◼   ► that's kind of in that vibe,

00:15:24 ◼   ► shrinking with Jason Segel is fantastic.

00:15:28 ◼   ► And one of the reasons it's got that vibe

00:15:31 ◼   ► is Bill Lawrence and Brett Goldstein from Ted Lasso

00:15:35 ◼   ► are the co-creators of that show.

00:15:37 ◼   ► So it's all, it's not about soccer,

00:15:40 ◼   ► but it is one of those kind of a bunch of people

00:15:44 ◼   ► hanging out and talking about their lives

00:15:46 ◼   ► and dealing with issues.

00:15:48 ◼   ► And I love that show.

00:15:50 ◼   ► I guess it's got one more to drop

00:15:52 ◼   ► before this first season is over.

00:15:53 ◼   ► They're already officially renewed for a second season.

00:15:55 ◼   ► And Harrison Ford's in it, folks.

00:15:57 ◼   ► Harrison Ford.

00:15:58 ◼   ► - And Harrison Ford is hilarious in this show.

00:16:00 ◼   ► - And Jessica Williams is in it

00:16:01 ◼   ► and has scenes with Harrison Ford

00:16:03 ◼   ► and it's like she was on the flophouse

00:16:04 ◼   ► and now she's acting with Harrison Ford.

00:16:07 ◼   ► How does this happen?

00:16:07 ◼   ► It's amazing.

00:16:08 ◼   ► - Yeah, so good.

00:16:10 ◼   ► Shrinking gives me Ted Lasso season one vibes.

00:16:13 ◼   ► Like the way I feel about it makes me feel good

00:16:16 ◼   ► and I'm so excited to watch more of it

00:16:18 ◼   ► and it's so refreshing and different in a way.

00:16:21 ◼   ► Yeah, it's a great show, super good.

00:16:23 ◼   ► Once again, Apple just making great television shows.

00:16:27 ◼   ► Who would have thought?

00:16:28 ◼   ► You know what I mean?

00:16:29 ◼   ► - I read a really good review of the "Tetris" movie too,

00:16:31 ◼   ► which is an Apple TV thing at the end of the month.

00:16:33 ◼   ► It premiered in South by Southwest.

00:16:35 ◼   ► And I read a really positive review of that.

00:16:38 ◼   ► A funny, funny positive review,

00:16:39 ◼   ► 'cause it was by somebody who'd never heard of "Tetris."

00:16:42 ◼   ► How is that possible?

00:16:43 ◼   ► Anyway, I'm looking forward to the "Tetris."

00:16:45 ◼   ► The trailer looked great,

00:16:46 ◼   ► so I'm looking forward to the "Tetris" movie.

00:16:48 ◼   ► which we talked about and conflated it with the Battleship movie, which I think is hilarious.

00:16:53 ◼   ► "The blocks are coming down, attack the blocks!" That's not what the Tetris movie is, it's actually

00:16:58 ◼   ► a... looks like fictionalized to make it more exciting story of the creation of Tetris.

00:17:03 ◼   ► - Absolutely not Apple related, but have you seen the trailer for the Blackberry movie?

00:17:08 ◼   ► - I have. - It looks really good!

00:17:11 ◼   ► - It actually looks... it reminded me of the trailer for the Tetris movie, which is... I don't

00:17:15 ◼   ► think it was actually this exciting but this is exciting yeah yeah and it's got that one has uh

00:17:20 ◼   ► such a great um cast that i couldn't believe was in it that that it's glenn howarton from it's

00:17:28 ◼   ► always sunny and uh ap bio yep uh as the guy who's the ceo of of blackberry and uh yeah and jay

00:17:37 ◼   ► barry shell is like the co-founder guy and it's uh and with those guys in the cast i suspect that

00:17:42 ◼   ► it is a funny movie. But yeah, I'm looking forward to that one too.

00:17:47 ◼   ► Yeah, I think it's like serious but funny. But funny. Yeah, sometimes I wonder if these

00:17:52 ◼   ► movies are kind of going for the Big Short kind of vibe, right? Which is like, it's a

00:17:56 ◼   ► movie about business, but it's got a skewed angle, right? It's got a different kind of

00:18:03 ◼   ► angle, like The Big Short or I guess, I haven't seen The Wolf of Wall Street, but maybe like

00:18:08 ◼   ► that. I don't know. It's the idea of like, it's a movie about business, but, but not

00:18:12 ◼   ► Right, like, I don't know.

00:18:13 ◼   ► - You made a post on Six Carls,

00:18:17 ◼   ► wrote a post on Six Carls about Camo Studio 2?

00:18:21 ◼   ► - Yes.

00:18:22 ◼   ► - So this was like Camo, previously,

00:18:25 ◼   ► like Sherlock, but continued to camera,

00:18:27 ◼   ► basically did continue to camera, right?

00:18:28 ◼   ► - Camo was an app you ran on your iPhone,

00:18:31 ◼   ► and then you ran it on your Mac,

00:18:32 ◼   ► and you could use your iPhone as your webcam.

00:18:34 ◼   ► And Apple was like, that's a good idea.

00:18:37 ◼   ► What if we just built it in so that your Mac

00:18:39 ◼   ► can take over your iPhone without running an app,

00:18:41 ◼   ► and just make it a camera, which is bad if you're camo.

00:18:46 ◼   ► Not that camo didn't do a lot of stuff

00:18:48 ◼   ► that continuity camera doesn't do,

00:18:50 ◼   ► 'cause as we've detailed here,

00:18:52 ◼   ► Apple is really reluctant to give people control

00:18:55 ◼   ► over their cameras, right?

00:18:56 ◼   ► They just want like little on/off switches.

00:18:58 ◼   ► They don't wanna have any other kind of like tweaks

00:19:00 ◼   ► to camera settings.

00:19:02 ◼   ► So what Camo did, Reincubate,

00:19:05 ◼   ► the company that makes Camo Studio,

00:19:07 ◼   ► they went away and made and used their code base

00:19:10 ◼   ► to make a new version of the app that works with any webcam,

00:19:14 ◼   ► including continuity camera.

00:19:18 ◼   ► So it still has an app, you can still run it.

00:19:20 ◼   ► You get more features if you run their app on the iPhone

00:19:23 ◼   ► versus using continuity camera,

00:19:24 ◼   ► but it will use continuity camera.

00:19:26 ◼   ► It will use the studio display camera.

00:19:30 ◼   ► It will use third-party webcams.

00:19:32 ◼   ► If you've got a webcam and you've been frustrated

00:19:35 ◼   ► by how lousy its settings app is, you can try Camo.

00:19:39 ◼   ► And it may be a much nicer solution

00:19:41 ◼   ► because camo has got a lot of great features,

00:19:43 ◼   ► including some of the stuff that I love is

00:19:46 ◼   ► the crop on Apple's cameras is terrible, right?

00:19:51 ◼   ► Like the studio display, especially like it,

00:19:54 ◼   ► if you don't have, sorry, center stage turned on,

00:19:58 ◼   ► almost said stage manager, watch it, center stage.

00:20:01 ◼   ► If you turn that off, it gets you the shot

00:20:03 ◼   ► where your sort of like head is at the bottom

00:20:04 ◼   ► and then there's just huge amounts of headroom above you.

00:20:06 ◼   ► It's like, how am I supposed to use that?

00:20:09 ◼   ► Well, Camo will let you zoom, control the zoom,

00:20:13 ◼   ► and control the crop.

00:20:14 ◼   ► So you can say, zoom in a little bit

00:20:16 ◼   ► and have it be at the bottom

00:20:17 ◼   ► and you can get yourself sort of like framed properly.

00:20:20 ◼   ► You can also like, it's got a bunch of settings

00:20:22 ◼   ► to like adjust the colors and adjust the brightness

00:20:24 ◼   ► and it works better on better cameras.

00:20:26 ◼   ► I mean, the studio display camera is just what it is,

00:20:28 ◼   ► but it will also work with continuity camera,

00:20:31 ◼   ► which doesn't give you those controls.

00:20:32 ◼   ► They even built their own version of portrait mode

00:20:36 ◼   ► that they claim is better and also more

00:20:40 ◼   ► like processor efficient than Apple's version.

00:20:42 ◼   ► And I can tell you in using it

00:20:44 ◼   ► that it actually was better at leaving things.

00:20:48 ◼   ► Apple's portrait mode tends to leave some things

00:20:53 ◼   ► right next to my head that are in the background unblurred.

00:20:58 ◼   ► So it looks like I've got like a little halo

00:21:01 ◼   ► of unblurredness around my head.

00:21:03 ◼   ► And then I switched to Camo's version of that.

00:21:06 ◼   ► and it did it right.

00:21:08 ◼   ► So that's interesting too.

00:21:09 ◼   ► So in the end, this is how,

00:21:12 ◼   ► this is why Sherlocking is not necessarily a thing

00:21:15 ◼   ► because Apple never grabs 100%.

00:21:18 ◼   ► It in fact provided a great opportunity for camo.

00:21:20 ◼   ► I know that they had to do,

00:21:21 ◼   ► the Re-incubate had to do a lot of work here,

00:21:23 ◼   ► but like they support continuity camera now.

00:21:26 ◼   ► So that's great.

00:21:26 ◼   ► It's a lot easier to use your iPhone than it used to be.

00:21:28 ◼   ► There are camera mounts for iPhones now,

00:21:30 ◼   ► which back when they made this software,

00:21:33 ◼   ► they did a whole blog post on their website.

00:21:35 ◼   ► we talked about it back in the day,

00:21:38 ◼   ► where they're like, we tried a whole bunch of camera,

00:21:40 ◼   ► iPhone mounts and they're terrible,

00:21:43 ◼   ► like all of them were terrible.

00:21:45 ◼   ► So now the existence of continuity camera,

00:21:46 ◼   ► boom, there are camera mounts for iPhone.

00:21:48 ◼   ► So that's great.

00:21:50 ◼   ► It's great if you've got a different webcam.

00:21:52 ◼   ► And I basically would say,

00:21:53 ◼   ► if you are somebody who uses webcams on a regular basis,

00:21:58 ◼   ► you should check it out and see if it's right for you.

00:22:00 ◼   ► It is expensive.

00:22:01 ◼   ► It's $80 to buy it straight out,

00:22:04 ◼   ► or I think it's like $40 a year.

00:22:06 ◼   ► So, but you could try it out and see,

00:22:10 ◼   ► it just adds a watermark.

00:22:11 ◼   ► You could actually use it like that, I think.

00:22:13 ◼   ► But if you are somebody who like is so frustrated

00:22:17 ◼   ► that you can't control what your webcam is doing,

00:22:21 ◼   ► this does that, this will do all of that.

00:22:24 ◼   ► So for me, as somebody who does, you know,

00:22:26 ◼   ► lots of different videos and stuff,

00:22:28 ◼   ► it's kind of a no brainer.

00:22:30 ◼   ► It's nice to have some features

00:22:32 ◼   ► on top of continuity cameras since Apple won't provide them.

00:22:36 ◼   ► - I downloaded the app today to see if it will allow me

00:22:39 ◼   ► to change the refresh rate, right from 60 to 50 Hertz.

00:22:42 ◼   ► So I wouldn't get that flickering anymore.

00:22:45 ◼   ► Couldn't find any settings for that.

00:22:46 ◼   ► - On the studio display.

00:22:47 ◼   ► - On the studio display.

00:22:49 ◼   ► And it may just be like, was I've experienced before.

00:22:51 ◼   ► I don't think Apple exposes that as possible.

00:22:54 ◼   ► - Yeah, I don't think they have the ability to grab that.

00:22:57 ◼   ► I will say though, the best quality setting still is

00:23:00 ◼   ► to run the Camo app on your phone.

00:23:03 ◼   ► Because when you do that, you get access

00:23:05 ◼   ► to like every single one of the cameras.

00:23:06 ◼   ► You can pick which camera.

00:23:08 ◼   ► It gives you the most control over it

00:23:11 ◼   ► because they're replacing Apple's sort of like very simple

00:23:15 ◼   ► camera API with an iPhone app that has access

00:23:18 ◼   ► to the entire camera.

00:23:21 ◼   ► So that's better.

00:23:21 ◼   ► But the problem with that is you have to unlock your phone

00:23:23 ◼   ► and launch the app and then put it where you need it to be.

00:23:26 ◼   ► And like, that was the problem.

00:23:27 ◼   ► That's why continuity camera is so great.

00:23:29 ◼   ► is like, all you have to do is say, let's use it.

00:23:32 ◼   ► And it turns itself on and it just works.

00:23:35 ◼   ► And that's pretty great.

00:23:36 ◼   ► Although it shows that maybe Apple should be better

00:23:39 ◼   ► at providing options for people who want more options.

00:23:43 ◼   ► Even if it's just an API and they don't build the UI,

00:23:46 ◼   ► let Reincubate build the UI.

00:23:48 ◼   ► But anyway, it's a great app.

00:23:50 ◼   ► It's very limited, you know, kind of people who would want it

00:23:53 ◼   ► I feel like if you know,

00:23:54 ◼   ► you know if you might want it

00:23:57 ◼   ► and they do let you try it out.

00:23:58 ◼   ► so you can try it out before paying any money and see if it helps you and helps your situation.

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00:25:50 ◼   ► Yeehaw!

00:25:52 ◼   ► Apple's open source code resources are making references to both Reality OS and Reality

00:25:58 ◼   ► Simulator.

00:26:00 ◼   ► Sure sounds like that's it.

00:26:02 ◼   ► Yeah.

00:26:03 ◼   ► Well, Reality Simulator, I guess that's some kind of development tool, right?

00:26:07 ◼   ► Like that that will be some simulation tool that you can run on some other hardware maybe?

00:26:13 ◼   ► And then potentially though, if there's a simulator like that, what does that mean for

00:26:19 ◼   ► like development kits and stuff like that? And like how is that going to work? Like that's

00:26:23 ◼   ► Yeah, but it may it may also be that the simulator is the thing that runs on your Mac and then

00:26:26 ◼   ► you plug in a headset and you can test your software using the headset, but it's being

00:26:32 ◼   ► projected from your development environment, right?

00:26:35 ◼   ► That could be it. Yes, that's what I would hope, right? Because previous simulators,

00:26:40 ◼   ► they're just pretending to be the devices, right? You open a window and it's now an iPhone,

00:26:43 ◼   ► open a window and it's now an iPad, right?

00:26:45 ◼   ► Like that's the Xcode simulator as such.

00:26:48 ◼   ► But yeah, I hope that you're right,

00:26:50 ◼   ► that it's related to some kind of actual

00:26:52 ◼   ► put it on your head and do something with it kind of thing.

00:26:56 ◼   ► Reality OS, I prefer this to XR OS,

00:27:00 ◼   ► which is one of the other rumors.

00:27:03 ◼   ► And I was also thinking that like obviously

00:27:04 ◼   ► we've heard rumor for a while that Apple Reality

00:27:08 ◼   ► or Reality Pro is probably gonna be the product name.

00:27:11 ◼   ► - Yeah.

00:27:11 ◼   ► - And that would tie in, right?

00:27:12 ◼   ► because we have iPad OS, Mac OS, watch OS.

00:27:16 ◼   ► I had this thought yesterday

00:27:17 ◼   ► that they should rename it iPhone OS again,

00:27:19 ◼   ► like they should actually do that,

00:27:21 ◼   ► but it's too late now.

00:27:22 ◼   ► 'Cause it's now iOS would be the odd one out, right?

00:27:25 ◼   ► Because everything else is named after the platform

00:27:28 ◼   ► that it runs on.

00:27:29 ◼   ► - Just iPhone, could take it back to iPhone OS maybe,

00:27:32 ◼   ► I don't know.

00:27:33 ◼   ► - Yeah.

00:27:34 ◼   ► - I don't know, but it's fine.

00:27:34 ◼   ► I think reality is a good,

00:27:38 ◼   ► like I've come to terms with it.

00:27:40 ◼   ► I mean, I never thought it was terrible, I don't think,

00:27:41 ◼   ► but like I've come to terms with it that like Apple,

00:27:44 ◼   ► Apple reality and Apple reality pro and reality OS

00:27:47 ◼   ► and like going all in on that as a brand name,

00:27:51 ◼   ► I think is fine.

00:27:52 ◼   ► I think that's,

00:27:53 ◼   ► 'cause in the end,

00:27:55 ◼   ► Apple's entire marketing machine

00:28:00 ◼   ► and their product development machine

00:28:03 ◼   ► and their retail machine,

00:28:05 ◼   ► like all of the power of Apple

00:28:07 ◼   ► means that as long as the name is fine,

00:28:10 ◼   ► they will be able to define it.

00:28:12 ◼   ► So like Apple Watch, it's like, it's a generic name.

00:28:14 ◼   ► It's like, yeah, and yet Apple Watch.

00:28:16 ◼   ► And people are like, oh, iPad, that's a silly name.

00:28:19 ◼   ► I was like, yeah, iPad, everybody gets it.

00:28:21 ◼   ► Everybody knows what it is.

00:28:22 ◼   ► So I still laugh when there's like a movie or TV show

00:28:25 ◼   ► and somebody says, you know,

00:28:28 ◼   ► he was holding an iPad or get your iPad.

00:28:30 ◼   ► I'm like, okay, that's, I mean, it's, it makes,

00:28:33 ◼   ► it actually is less jarring than get your tablet, right?

00:28:37 ◼   ► Which is like, nobody does that.

00:28:39 ◼   ► So I don't know, I mean, it's generic,

00:28:42 ◼   ► but I think that as long as the product,

00:28:44 ◼   ► the product's gonna work or not,

00:28:47 ◼   ► and it's not gonna have anything to do with the name.

00:28:49 ◼   ► And if the product works, whatever degree the product works,

00:28:51 ◼   ► the name will go along with it and we'll represent it.

00:28:54 ◼   ► It'll be fine.

00:28:56 ◼   ► - Yeah, yeah, and I think I've come around to reality now.

00:28:59 ◼   ► I think that that's a funny phrase.

00:29:00 ◼   ► - Finally, we've been trying to get you

00:29:02 ◼   ► to come around to reality.

00:29:03 ◼   ► - Yeah, now as I say that, I'm like, oh, here we go again.

00:29:06 ◼   ► - I know, right?

00:29:07 ◼   ► Right now we've got this whole other thing

00:29:09 ◼   ► that we're gonna have to get used to.

00:29:11 ◼   ► First we need to make all the jokes

00:29:12 ◼   ► and then we'll need to find some way

00:29:13 ◼   ► of actually saying these things out loud.

00:29:16 ◼   ► Like how we had to deal with Macs chips.

00:29:19 ◼   ► - Ah yes. - You know, like M2 Macs chips.

00:29:21 ◼   ► Just gotten used to that over time

00:29:23 ◼   ► because M2 Macs Macs is just like,

00:29:26 ◼   ► you just can't, doesn't make any sense.

00:29:28 ◼   ► Oh yeah, yeah, yeah, well.

00:29:30 ◼   ► Anytime now, right?

00:29:31 ◼   ► It's gonna be anytime now.

00:29:33 ◼   ► We'll maybe start finding out some of this stuff.

00:29:35 ◼   ► Mark Gurman is reporting that Apple is currently on a cost cutting push in order to prevent

00:29:41 ◼   ► layoffs at the company.

00:29:43 ◼   ► So as Mark was talking about in his newsletter, clearly Apple is in a better position than

00:29:48 ◼   ► some of its tech rivals.

00:29:50 ◼   ► But the economy is causing some trouble for the company like every company.

00:29:53 ◼   ► So they are pursuing measures to weather this.

00:29:56 ◼   ► Like for example, they are going to be delaying bonuses.

00:29:59 ◼   ► So a lot of bonuses that Apple apparently paid out twice a year, but Apple is going

00:30:03 ◼   ► to be delaying the first one of those payments and keeping all the payments until October.

00:30:08 ◼   ► So the money is not going to change, but just when you get it is going to change. This is

00:30:12 ◼   ► apparently so Apple keeps a little more cash on hand and then they'll deal with it later

00:30:16 ◼   ► on. They are prioritising their research and development budgets. For example, the rumoured

00:30:21 ◼   ► HomePod with a screen has been pushed back in their timelines. Mark Gurman is now saying

00:30:26 ◼   ► it will be 2024 at the earliest for this product, which I know we knew that was the case anyway,

00:30:32 ◼   ► my expectation is like, that probably means it's closer to the end than the start of the

00:30:37 ◼   ► year, right?

00:30:38 ◼   ► - Right, it's all, it also, he may know that it was planned for this year and got pushed

00:30:42 ◼   ► back or something like that, but by the time we know that it exists, it's already being

00:30:46 ◼   ► talked about in a next year context, so that, that pushback already happened, but you know,

00:30:50 ◼   ► we don't know.

00:30:51 ◼   ► - Uh, there's gonna be, um, stricter approvals on budget increases and travel, uh, hiring

00:30:57 ◼   ► Freezers, people that have left and there are roles open, they're going to be keeping

00:31:02 ◼   ► those roles open. And a quote from the article I want to read in full, "Managers have become

00:31:06 ◼   ► as strict as ever about office attendance," so like coming into work three days a week,

00:31:11 ◼   ► and some workers believe this is a harbinger to the company firing employees who don't

00:31:16 ◼   ► meet the requirement. So I just thought that was intriguing. That was intriguing to me.

00:31:20 ◼   ► And then also again, it's like, who's given that information that feels like, you know,

00:31:24 ◼   ► this is like people were worried about that kind of thing.

00:31:27 ◼   ► - Right, now, so here's the funny thing.

00:31:29 ◼   ► As Mark Gurman makes clear,

00:31:31 ◼   ► and I thought that this was a really nice part

00:31:32 ◼   ► of his newsletter,

00:31:34 ◼   ► Apple has an enormous amount of cash on hand.

00:31:36 ◼   ► Apple can weather any storm, right?

00:31:38 ◼   ► Apple can weather almost any storm,

00:31:39 ◼   ► maybe not like complete break with China, right?

00:31:42 ◼   ► We talked about that.

00:31:42 ◼   ► But basically, Apple can weather an economic storm like this.

00:31:45 ◼   ► They really can't.

00:31:47 ◼   ► So on one level, I think it's admirable

00:31:51 ◼   ► that Apple is trying very hard not to lay off people.

00:31:56 ◼   ► and is trying, I looked at this too and I thought,

00:32:00 ◼   ► you know, Mark Gurman's report here

00:32:02 ◼   ► is actually serving Apple.

00:32:04 ◼   ► It serves Apple for this to get out there

00:32:06 ◼   ► because here's the truth people,

00:32:09 ◼   ► this is all about demonstrating to your shareholders

00:32:13 ◼   ► that you're taking the economy seriously.

00:32:16 ◼   ► In the case of some companies, laying off a lot of people

00:32:19 ◼   ► is about realizing that you are in trouble

00:32:22 ◼   ► and you've hired too many people.

00:32:23 ◼   ► But that's not the case in Apple's case, right?

00:32:26 ◼   ► Apple has not gone on a hiring spree.

00:32:28 ◼   ► Apple has grown, but like Apple has not done

00:32:30 ◼   ► what its peers in the tech industry have done.

00:32:33 ◼   ► Apple is enormously profitable,

00:32:35 ◼   ► and Apple has a huge amount of cash on hand.

00:32:37 ◼   ► So the truth is, Apple doesn't need to do

00:32:39 ◼   ► any of these things that it's done.

00:32:41 ◼   ► It's doing it to demonstrate to the community at large

00:32:46 ◼   ► and to its investors in particular,

00:32:48 ◼   ► that it's financially responsible

00:32:50 ◼   ► and it's taking things seriously.

00:32:53 ◼   ► but let's be clear, like Apple's got billions of dollars

00:32:58 ◼   ► in cash.

00:33:00 ◼   ► Apple is supposedly the company

00:33:03 ◼   ► that invests through a downturn, right?

00:33:06 ◼   ► So it's hard for me not to look at this

00:33:09 ◼   ► and sort of say this is a, on the one hand,

00:33:14 ◼   ► a cynical demonstration of having to,

00:33:18 ◼   ► like times are tough and we're taking it seriously

00:33:22 ◼   ► so that people know that they're doing that,

00:33:24 ◼   ► when they could just keep going the way they have been.

00:33:28 ◼   ► Now there's a couple of things here, right?

00:33:30 ◼   ► One is downturns are a great time to make changes

00:33:34 ◼   ► that you want to make and use it as an excuse.

00:33:37 ◼   ► So that's some of it, right?

00:33:39 ◼   ► So tightening the screws on people's office attendance

00:33:42 ◼   ► and not replacing people in, you know,

00:33:46 ◼   ► using attrition to cut the size of groups

00:33:48 ◼   ► that you actually didn't think needed to be that size.

00:33:50 ◼   ► Like you can use it as an excuse, right?

00:33:52 ◼   ► I get that.

00:33:53 ◼   ► And then maybe your HR people come to you and say,

00:33:55 ◼   ► "Why are we paying some groups out twice with bonuses

00:33:58 ◼   ► and other groups out once with bonuses?"

00:34:00 ◼   ► And they're using this as a reason to like make that

00:34:03 ◼   ► consistent across the company with the single bonuses

00:34:06 ◼   ► under the guise of it being about the economy.

00:34:09 ◼   ► So forgive me, but I need,

00:34:12 ◼   ► for puncturing this story a little bit,

00:34:14 ◼   ► but I think Mark Gurman did it too.

00:34:15 ◼   ► Like they don't need to do any of this.

00:34:16 ◼   ► They literally don't need to do any of this.

00:34:18 ◼   ► They're doing it to show that they are responsible, basically.

00:34:22 ◼   ► And if they start laying people off,

00:34:24 ◼   ► then it's even more offensive, right?

00:34:25 ◼   ► But I'm gonna give them credit.

00:34:27 ◼   ► Apple, it's not just that Apple is in this position

00:34:29 ◼   ► and it's not just that Apple has the money.

00:34:32 ◼   ► I think that this shows that they don't wanna lay people off.

00:34:37 ◼   ► They don't wanna lay people off.

00:34:38 ◼   ► And they don't think they have to.

00:34:40 ◼   ► Apple thinks it can get away

00:34:41 ◼   ► with demonstrating its financial prudence

00:34:44 ◼   ► without doing a huge number of layoffs.

00:34:48 ◼   ► That's great, but I would say at the same time,

00:34:50 ◼   ► thousands of people just got laid off in the tech industry.

00:34:54 ◼   ► At some point, Apple should start hiring them, right?

00:34:57 ◼   ► - Yeah, but they are though, right?

00:34:58 ◼   ► - And they are, they're not doing a hiring freeze, right?

00:35:01 ◼   ► Or they have had hiring freezes in some places,

00:35:03 ◼   ► but like not in other places, right?

00:35:06 ◼   ► And so that's part of this story too.

00:35:08 ◼   ► So anyway, I just wanted to say that,

00:35:10 ◼   ► that like this is better than their peers,

00:35:12 ◼   ► but they didn't, you know,

00:35:14 ◼   ► do they really need to do all of this?

00:35:16 ◼   ► Of course not, of course they don't.

00:35:17 ◼   ► They're doing this to demonstrate their fiscal prudence

00:35:22 ◼   ► and Wall Street will appreciate it, presumably.

00:35:26 ◼   ► - To me, I find this is a hard thing to get mad about.

00:35:28 ◼   ► Everyone on our live chat right now is really mad

00:35:31 ◼   ► at Apple for doing this,

00:35:32 ◼   ► but all of these things we've just spoken about,

00:35:35 ◼   ► they don't really affect people.

00:35:37 ◼   ► These are things that, delaying bonuses,

00:35:39 ◼   ► we still get to get the bonus.

00:35:40 ◼   ► And also, it's not great to rely on bonuses, right?

00:35:43 ◼   ► You shouldn't rely on bonuses, they're bonuses, right?

00:35:46 ◼   ► Prioritizing R&D budgets.

00:35:48 ◼   ► If they're moving products back,

00:35:49 ◼   ► maybe they think like, oh, these are like products

00:35:51 ◼   ► we don't think will sell very well right now

00:35:53 ◼   ► because of the economy.

00:35:54 ◼   ► So we'll move them.

00:35:55 ◼   ► - Like I said, prioritizing things often is

00:35:58 ◼   ► under the guise of, you know, in this economy,

00:36:01 ◼   ► but it's actually like,

00:36:02 ◼   ► we can afford to push that product later.

00:36:04 ◼   ► - Every company in tech is laying people off.

00:36:06 ◼   ► They could lay people off now if they want to,

00:36:08 ◼   ► but they're not.

00:36:08 ◼   ► And I think that that's like,

00:36:09 ◼   ► that's the ultimate important thing here.

00:36:11 ◼   ► Everything else here is just like,

00:36:13 ◼   ► it's window dressing, you know?

00:36:15 ◼   ► I don't think you can say bonuses are just bonuses

00:36:18 ◼   ► because the fact is bonuses are also a competitive tool

00:36:20 ◼   ► that's used for employee retention

00:36:22 ◼   ► and also to lure people to a company from another company.

00:36:25 ◼   ► So bonuses are part of that story.

00:36:27 ◼   ► - Right, they're still gonna get them though.

00:36:28 ◼   ► It's still in the package.

00:36:30 ◼   ► - But you're absolutely right.

00:36:31 ◼   ► I just wanted to say, you're like,

00:36:31 ◼   ► "Well, bonuses are bonuses.

00:36:32 ◼   ► "It's a bonus, not everybody gets the bonus."

00:36:34 ◼   ► I get that, but they're not cutting the bonuses.

00:36:37 ◼   ► They're delaying the bonuses.

00:36:38 ◼   ► And they're not even bringing everybody back

00:36:41 ◼   ► into the office five days a week.

00:36:42 ◼   ► They're just leaning on the people

00:36:44 ◼   ► who are not in the office three days a week.

00:36:47 ◼   ► - And that's enforcing the previous rule

00:36:49 ◼   ► they already made, right?

00:36:51 ◼   ► - So it's all about techniques and tools.

00:36:52 ◼   ► And again, again, a lot of this, I suspect,

00:36:56 ◼   ► is the pretense of this allows us to do some stuff

00:36:59 ◼   ► we wanna do and point at the economy

00:37:01 ◼   ► and has the added benefit of allowing us to demonstrate

00:37:04 ◼   ► to the outside world that we're taking this very seriously,

00:37:06 ◼   ► even if we're not laying thousands of people off,

00:37:09 ◼   ► which because that's a greater offense, right?

00:37:11 ◼   ► The greater offense is not needing

00:37:12 ◼   ► to have a thousand people lose their jobs,

00:37:14 ◼   ► but doing it so that just as a demonstration to Wall Street

00:37:17 ◼   ► that you're a responsible company,

00:37:19 ◼   ► that's far more offensive.

00:37:20 ◼   ► And I'm gonna give Apple's management huge credit here.

00:37:23 ◼   ► It's like, they seem to be trying everything

00:37:26 ◼   ► to look responsible while not cutting jobs.

00:37:29 ◼   ► And that's good.

00:37:30 ◼   ► Like that's really good.

00:37:32 ◼   ► But I can't let it go without pointing out

00:37:34 ◼   ► as Mark Gurman did, they got a lot of cash.

00:37:37 ◼   ► They got a lot of profits.

00:37:38 ◼   ► They're doing fine.

00:37:40 ◼   ► And this is more about making a demonstration

00:37:43 ◼   ► of prudence and fiscal responsibility

00:37:46 ◼   ► than it is something that they actually need to do.

00:37:48 ◼   ► - Yeah, and it's like, and you should,

00:37:50 ◼   ► and like, no one knows what's gonna happen, right?

00:37:52 ◼   ► Yes, they have all the money in the world,

00:37:54 ◼   ► but they can't just spend it all forever, right?

00:37:55 ◼   ► Like, that they, you know, if they're just like,

00:37:57 ◼   ► "Hey, no, it's all fine, nothing's wrong."

00:38:00 ◼   ► But if the, like, sales are down because of the,

00:38:03 ◼   ► you know, these are just things you have to prepare for.

00:38:05 ◼   ► And I think, like, looking at this list,

00:38:07 ◼   ► at least what Mark Gurman is talking about,

00:38:09 ◼   ► All of these things feel superfluous

00:38:14 ◼   ► and or just like moving around deck chairs.

00:38:17 ◼   ► - Like I said, I think it is a demonstration

00:38:21 ◼   ► of fiscal prudence and I think that Mark Gurman reporting

00:38:23 ◼   ► about it in Bloomberg is part of the strategy.

00:38:26 ◼   ► I don't know about if he got this from Apple

00:38:29 ◼   ► sort of like an unauthorized way or not,

00:38:31 ◼   ► but Apple can't be sad that Bloomberg,

00:38:34 ◼   ► a business focused website that is read by lots

00:38:38 ◼   ► lots of investors is doing a detailed report about all the ways that Apple is being fiscally

00:38:45 ◼   ► prudent. No, they're not laying people off, but boy, they're doing a lot of stuff. So

00:38:48 ◼   ► it's okay. They're aware of it. They're on it. And that's what they want. That's the

00:38:52 ◼   ► message that Apple wants out there in the investor community is we're taking it seriously.

00:38:57 ◼   ► Even if secretly behind the scenes, they're like, "Oh yeah, that guy got laid off by Google.

00:39:04 ◼   ► make an offer, right? Like, that stuff may totally be happening behind the scenes at

00:39:09 ◼   ► the key levels, but they need to show this. So it's, yeah, I just wanted to say, it's

00:39:15 ◼   ► for show. They are doing it, it's real, it is for show, and they could be doing a lot

00:39:19 ◼   ► worse than they are, and that's good that people aren't losing their jobs at this point,

00:39:24 ◼   ► although I am a little worried about the, this is giving them a tool to basically say,

00:39:30 ◼   ► need to be in the office three days a week or you're out. But that was, you know, that's been

00:39:35 ◼   ► their policy for a while now. It's interesting that they've been kind of letting it slide and

00:39:40 ◼   ► this is an, again, an opportunity for them to use this as a way to not let it slide.

00:39:44 ◼   ► - Yeah. But I think that that was probably in play anyway, right? Like...

00:39:48 ◼   ► - Sure. Like I said, you know, sometimes it... Take it from somebody who used to have a

00:39:54 ◼   ► senior vice president title and have like, I don't know how many, 60, 70 people reporting to me.

00:39:59 ◼   ► Like sometimes you just need an excuse, right?

00:40:04 ◼   ► Sometimes it's that simple.

00:40:06 ◼   ► It's like they'll come to you and they'll say,

00:40:09 ◼   ► "Well, there's a downturn and we're gonna have a little,

00:40:12 ◼   ► we're gonna have some budget cuts,

00:40:14 ◼   ► but now's the chance," right?

00:40:16 ◼   ► To be like, "Now's the chance to get rid of that person

00:40:18 ◼   ► who's a problem on your staff.

00:40:20 ◼   ► Now's the chance to get rid of this policy

00:40:22 ◼   ► that I don't like."

00:40:23 ◼   ► It's stuff like that, that absolutely happens.

00:40:26 ◼   ► - It's business, baby.

00:40:28 ◼   ► - Oh, Skyler in the Discord saying,

00:40:30 ◼   ► "Oh, big man, Jason with a..."

00:40:31 ◼   ► Look, I hated that job.

00:40:33 ◼   ► (laughs)

00:40:36 ◼   ► It was a miserable job and then I quit.

00:40:38 ◼   ► - It was still a job you had though.

00:40:40 ◼   ► - And the senior vice president made me laugh so much.

00:40:42 ◼   ► I laugh when they made me vice president

00:40:44 ◼   ► and editorial director or something like that.

00:40:46 ◼   ► That was unnecessary.

00:40:47 ◼   ► And then they made me senior vice president

00:40:48 ◼   ► and editorial director and I'm like,

00:40:49 ◼   ► "This is doubly unnecessary."

00:40:52 ◼   ► But the relevant thing is that I was in a company

00:40:55 ◼   ► big enough to have a lot of reports

00:40:56 ◼   ► and also have to talk to the CEOs and the money people.

00:41:01 ◼   ► And that is a, I'll tell you as an editor,

00:41:05 ◼   ► as a content person, well, that's a different world, right?

00:41:08 ◼   ► Like it's just a totally different world.

00:41:10 ◼   ► And I imagine the same is true with a company like Apple,

00:41:12 ◼   ► where like you're a developer

00:41:14 ◼   ► or even like a product manager, like there's that.

00:41:17 ◼   ► And then there's the like money people who are up there

00:41:21 ◼   ► and they've got their budgets

00:41:22 ◼   ► and they're looking at the whole thing

00:41:24 ◼   ► and they speak a different language.

00:41:27 ◼   ► And that's business, right?

00:41:29 ◼   ► That's the people who are wearing the business hats.

00:41:32 ◼   ► And they're the ones who come to you and go,

00:41:33 ◼   ► (clears throat)

00:41:34 ◼   ► how about we change your bonus structure for your group?

00:41:39 ◼   ► And you're like, okay, 'cause what are you gonna do?

00:41:44 ◼   ► - And you know, like something like this

00:41:45 ◼   ► is very different to what Meta's doing,

00:41:50 ◼   ► where Meta's deciding they're just gonna lay off people

00:41:52 ◼   ► for efficiency's sake now.

00:41:55 ◼   ► - Yes, yeah, absolutely.

00:41:56 ◼   ► - Very different.

00:41:57 ◼   ► - It's a huge contrast.

00:41:58 ◼   ► I think that's why I think this story is so fascinating

00:42:00 ◼   ► and why I've been talking about it so much here

00:42:03 ◼   ► is that it's both of these things.

00:42:06 ◼   ► It's the duality of it, right?

00:42:07 ◼   ► It is simultaneously Apple making a bunch of gestures

00:42:10 ◼   ► of things that they probably didn't need to do,

00:42:12 ◼   ► but they're doing 'cause they need to show

00:42:14 ◼   ► that they're doing something.

00:42:15 ◼   ► But it's also Apple not doing what Meta and Google

00:42:21 ◼   ► and Microsoft have done, which is have hundreds

00:42:26 ◼   ► or thousands of people losing their jobs.

00:42:27 ◼   ► Did Meta just do a second wave?

00:42:30 ◼   ► - Yeah, another 10,000 people

00:42:32 ◼   ► because they think it would make the company

00:42:33 ◼   ► be more efficient.

00:42:34 ◼   ► - Yeah, so that's what Apple's not doing.

00:42:37 ◼   ► And I think that that's also why Apple feels the need

00:42:41 ◼   ► to demonstrate that it's doing things, right?

00:42:44 ◼   ► Is because otherwise you risk having your shareholders

00:42:48 ◼   ► Wall Street in general saying Apple is irresponsible, Apple is spending too much money. And when

00:42:52 ◼   ► you're spending a lot of money on R&D projects like VR and a car, having a reputation for

00:43:00 ◼   ► being responsible helps you say, yes, we know that budget is huge, but we're a very responsible

00:43:04 ◼   ► company. And that is important. It actually is because at the end of the day, Wall Street

00:43:11 ◼   ► and the investors, the shareholders do matter.

00:43:15 ◼   ► They do report to them.

00:43:17 ◼   ► And Apple has shown over the last few years,

00:43:20 ◼   ► and they just had their annual shareholders meeting

00:43:23 ◼   ► and everything got approved, right?

00:43:24 ◼   ► Like Apple has shown they've actually gotten really good

00:43:27 ◼   ► at keeping Wall Street happy

00:43:29 ◼   ► and keeping their shareholders happy.

00:43:31 ◼   ► And stuff like this is a part of that.

00:43:33 ◼   ► - Korean industry outlet, the ILAC,

00:43:37 ◼   ► is citing their sources to suggest

00:43:39 ◼   ► that the 2024 iPad Pro models feature OLED screens

00:43:43 ◼   ► and could see a large price increase because of it.

00:43:46 ◼   ► They are expecting starting prices of $1,500 and $1,800

00:43:51 ◼   ► for the 11-inch and 12.9-inch iPad Pro models.

00:43:56 ◼   ► For context, they are currently 799 and 1099

00:44:00 ◼   ► for the 11 and the 12.9.

00:44:03 ◼   ► Ross Young, industry analyst of displays,

00:44:07 ◼   ► currently is also expecting price increases because of Apple's requirements for quality.

00:44:13 ◼   ► Now, I also want to read a quote from the MacRumors article. I got this from, it says

00:44:18 ◼   ► Samsung is set to invest in 8th generation OLED production lines, which should theoretically

00:44:23 ◼   ► result in lower costing panels, but they are already being earmarked for Apple's future

00:44:28 ◼   ► OLED MacBooks, which are expected to debut in 2024.

00:44:31 ◼   ► Now, so what I'll say is, with all of that in mind,

00:44:35 ◼   ► the expectation here, I think, seems pretty clear

00:44:38 ◼   ► that the iPad Pro will become more expensive

00:44:42 ◼   ► once it gets an OLED screen.

00:44:44 ◼   ► Do I think it will jump from 799 to 1500?

00:44:48 ◼   ► I don't, but I imagine it will get closer to it,

00:44:51 ◼   ► and I think that's real rough.

00:44:54 ◼   ► - Yeah, yeah, I'm skeptical of these numbers, right?

00:44:58 ◼   ► I am because those are enormous price disparities

00:45:02 ◼   ► from a company that really tries to not do that.

00:45:05 ◼   ► I mean, we talk about how Apple's stuff is expensive

00:45:07 ◼   ► and it absolutely is expensive, but there are limits, right?

00:45:12 ◼   ► So I'm gonna be skeptical of that.

00:45:15 ◼   ► Like doubling, almost doubling the price of a product

00:45:18 ◼   ► is wild, right?

00:45:19 ◼   ► So there's that.

00:45:20 ◼   ► I also have to ask the question,

00:45:24 ◼   ► I know we're gonna talk about this later too,

00:45:25 ◼   ► which is like, who, even people who love their iPad Pro,

00:45:30 ◼   ► and I am one of them, who can find value

00:45:36 ◼   ► in a, certainly in a 1500 or $1,800 iPad Pro.

00:45:42 ◼   ► Who is that?

00:45:43 ◼   ► Who is that who is willing to pay $700 more

00:45:46 ◼   ► for an OLED screen, especially in the larger one

00:45:49 ◼   ► that already has the good, if not great,

00:45:52 ◼   ► mini LED backlit screen?

00:45:54 ◼   ► very, very good screen.

00:45:57 ◼   ► Like who is that?

00:45:59 ◼   ► And so one, that makes me think

00:46:02 ◼   ► these prices are probably too high

00:46:04 ◼   ► because I don't know if it's a viable product there.

00:46:08 ◼   ► And two, like what is that value proposition?

00:46:13 ◼   ► Now, is this a brand new next generation iPad Pro

00:46:15 ◼   ► that has a whole bunch of other features

00:46:17 ◼   ► of which we're not aware

00:46:18 ◼   ► that are being bundled into whatever this thing is?

00:46:22 ◼   ► because it's been a while,

00:46:25 ◼   ► we've complained about it a lot.

00:46:26 ◼   ► It's been since 2018 really,

00:46:28 ◼   ► that we've been on the same set of models.

00:46:30 ◼   ► They just update the processor,

00:46:33 ◼   ► but like it's there,

00:46:34 ◼   ► and they've updated the display,

00:46:35 ◼   ► but like it hasn't,

00:46:36 ◼   ► it doesn't look any different,

00:46:37 ◼   ► and it uses the same accessories.

00:46:39 ◼   ► So are they rethinking the iPad Pro in general?

00:46:43 ◼   ► And if so, what is that?

00:46:44 ◼   ► And we don't know that part of it,

00:46:46 ◼   ► but I will say that my,

00:46:48 ◼   ► I'm not very optimistic.

00:46:50 ◼   ► Like I hope they're really rethinking it

00:46:53 ◼   ► because I'm kind of as perverse as this sounds almost.

00:46:57 ◼   ► I kind of, I would love to see what Apple thinks

00:47:00 ◼   ► an iPad Pro that's worth $1,500 does, right?

00:47:04 ◼   ► I would love to see what that is.

00:47:05 ◼   ► - You know what, for curiosity's sake, I agree with you.

00:47:09 ◼   ► - Right, like what would that be?

00:47:10 ◼   ► That would be, it's worth more than a MacBook Air by a lot.

00:47:14 ◼   ► Like right now they cost sort of what the MacBook Air costs

00:47:17 ◼   ► but like more than the MacBook Air,

00:47:19 ◼   ► This thing, so it's really, really, and again, OLED, yes,

00:47:23 ◼   ► but like, are people, how many people are gonna pay?

00:47:26 ◼   ► People will, but like, how many people are gonna pay

00:47:28 ◼   ► for a 1500 or 1800, or even a little less than that,

00:47:31 ◼   ► movie player OLED screen?

00:47:33 ◼   ► Like, some people, but I'm skeptical

00:47:35 ◼   ► about the added value there.

00:47:38 ◼   ► Or I don't know what else goes in there.

00:47:40 ◼   ► This is my question, right?

00:47:42 ◼   ► Is what value gets added into the iPad Pro

00:47:46 ◼   ► for it to bear even higher prices than it already has.

00:47:49 ◼   ► 'Cause already it gets knocked for being kind of,

00:47:53 ◼   ► less capable than the MacBook Air for using the same parts

00:47:56 ◼   ► and for roughly the same price.

00:47:58 ◼   ► So what happens at least for the larger one?

00:48:01 ◼   ► So what value is there if you increase it,

00:48:05 ◼   ► if you ratchet it up even more, it's a little bit,

00:48:08 ◼   ► I don't know, it's a little bit baffling for me,

00:48:09 ◼   ► but yeah, I would love to see it, right?

00:48:12 ◼   ► Like, I mean, if somebody came to me and said,

00:48:15 ◼   ► "Hi, I'm at Apple and I'd like to have to come in

00:48:20 ◼   ► for a briefing."

00:48:21 ◼   ► And I go to the briefing and they say,

00:48:23 ◼   ► "We're doing a new iPad Pro and it's gonna cost $1,800."

00:48:26 ◼   ► What I'm gonna say is, "Wow, what makes it worth that?"

00:48:31 ◼   ► And I will get into my bag and I will pull out the popcorn

00:48:35 ◼   ► that I bring with me and I will just be like,

00:48:38 ◼   ► "Lay it on me, I would love to hear this story."

00:48:40 ◼   ► Because what they have now, I mean,

00:48:44 ◼   ► I'm not entirely convinced that what they have now

00:48:46 ◼   ► really bears the prices that they're currently charging

00:48:48 ◼   ► for the iPad Pro, but I certainly don't feel

00:48:51 ◼   ► that what they've got now could bear more

00:48:55 ◼   ► given what it's capable of

00:48:56 ◼   ► and given what other iPads there are.

00:48:58 ◼   ► So yeah, expression of skepticism here for this,

00:49:02 ◼   ► but I don't doubt that the OLED display

00:49:05 ◼   ► would make them cost more.

00:49:06 ◼   ► I'm just, I'm wondering what that price is

00:49:08 ◼   ► and I'm wondering what value it offers beyond my screen.

00:49:10 ◼   ► - If they are beyond 1500 or 1800,

00:49:13 ◼   ► we don't believe that from this report, like it's whatever.

00:49:16 ◼   ► But I think it does indicate these two things together,

00:49:20 ◼   ► both what the ELEC are talking about,

00:49:22 ◼   ► what Ross Young are talking about,

00:49:23 ◼   ► indicate to me that the price will increase.

00:49:25 ◼   ► Like it won't just be, here's the thing.

00:49:27 ◼   ► It's like, that's the thing that we're talking about here.

00:49:29 ◼   ► - Yeah, maybe it's 9.99 and 12.99,

00:49:33 ◼   ► or 9.99 and 11.99.

00:49:35 ◼   ► Like having the low end model go up to the small model,

00:49:38 ◼   ► go up to 9.99,

00:49:41 ◼   ► That I believe more than 1500, 1499, right?

00:49:45 ◼   ► That seems too much to me by a lot.

00:49:49 ◼   ► - But just to put it in perspective,

00:49:51 ◼   ► when the iPhone 10 was the first OLED phone,

00:49:56 ◼   ► it was $300 more expensive than the iPhone 8,

00:50:01 ◼   ► which is percentage wise,

00:50:04 ◼   ► not that dissimilar from these price increases.

00:50:07 ◼   ► And I know it was more than just the OLED screen,

00:50:10 ◼   ► But I think everyone agreed the OLED screen

00:50:12 ◼   ► was the big price difference.

00:50:15 ◼   ► - Right, but it also did face ID, right?

00:50:18 ◼   ► It's a biometric authentication through face ID.

00:50:20 ◼   ► That was like a huge change.

00:50:21 ◼   ► - Loads of things that it did, right?

00:50:23 ◼   ► Loads of things that are different, but.

00:50:24 ◼   ► - And that's where I come back and I say,

00:50:27 ◼   ► what else is in this thing to bear the price increase,

00:50:29 ◼   ► whatever it is.

00:50:30 ◼   ► 'Cause even if, here's the funny thing,

00:50:33 ◼   ► even if it's the OLED screen that is really the reason

00:50:36 ◼   ► you have to raise the price,

00:50:38 ◼   ► I'm not convinced that telling people,

00:50:41 ◼   ► well, yeah, I mean, yeah, it's $800 more, $700 more,

00:50:44 ◼   ► but OLED screen is enough, right?

00:50:47 ◼   ► There needs to be a bigger story.

00:50:48 ◼   ► There needs to be more stuff.

00:50:49 ◼   ► What is the next generation of the platform?

00:50:52 ◼   ► How is it differentiated further

00:50:54 ◼   ► from your very nice iPad Air?

00:50:56 ◼   ► - 'Cause then you say like, realistically,

00:50:58 ◼   ► realistically, how much different is the OLED

00:51:01 ◼   ► to the mini LED?

00:51:02 ◼   ► Like, I don't think for most people

00:51:04 ◼   ► it's that much of a difference.

00:51:06 ◼   ► It's like, oh, it doesn't bloom.

00:51:07 ◼   ► - Great.

00:51:08 ◼   ► - No one sees this, right?

00:51:09 ◼   ► Like this is a thing that people that know

00:51:11 ◼   ► what they're looking for get bothered by that.

00:51:14 ◼   ► But realistically, people aren't bothered by that.

00:51:17 ◼   ► So like that is not enough.

00:51:19 ◼   ► And we're gonna get to more of that enough.

00:51:21 ◼   ► - And when I say who's gonna pay,

00:51:25 ◼   ► who's gonna see the value proposition,

00:51:26 ◼   ► in our Discord, Catherine said,

00:51:28 ◼   ► a lot of designers and illustrators here are like,

00:51:30 ◼   ► shut up and take my money.

00:51:31 ◼   ► Absolutely, but I guess my point is,

00:51:33 ◼   ► look, Apple differentiating the iPad Pro

00:51:37 ◼   ► up above the air is something we've talked about a lot.

00:51:40 ◼   ► It's actually part of the confusion

00:51:42 ◼   ► of the iPad line right now is like,

00:51:43 ◼   ► they're not that different.

00:51:44 ◼   ► They're a little different, but they're not that different.

00:51:46 ◼   ► So Apple really differentiating them

00:51:48 ◼   ► on one level makes sense.

00:51:51 ◼   ► And it's not that there won't be markets

00:51:53 ◼   ► for an OLED iPad Pro, right?

00:51:56 ◼   ► Like Catherine says, there will be people who are like,

00:51:59 ◼   ► this is a great design product.

00:52:01 ◼   ► I want it amazing, like great.

00:52:04 ◼   ► The challenge is, are there enough people

00:52:07 ◼   ► willing to pay whatever that price is that they set

00:52:11 ◼   ► in order to make that product make sense?

00:52:14 ◼   ► Because you want a high end products

00:52:15 ◼   ► are never gonna sell as well as the low end products.

00:52:18 ◼   ► I get it, but they do need to sell, right?

00:52:21 ◼   ► They're not just there for fun.

00:52:22 ◼   ► They do need to sell.

00:52:23 ◼   ► And that means they need to be at a price

00:52:25 ◼   ► with value inside the product

00:52:28 ◼   ► that makes it worth people saying,

00:52:30 ◼   ► "Yes, it's worth the price for me to get it."

00:52:32 ◼   ► and that's the challenge that you have with the iPad Pro.

00:52:35 ◼   ► It's like, what else are you gonna do to differentiate it?

00:52:37 ◼   ► Because OLED may not be enough.

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00:54:45 ◼   ► So what does the iPad need? Well funnily enough, podcaster and writer Jason Snell wrote an

00:54:53 ◼   ► applauded article I would say. I've been seeing this popping up all over the place.

00:54:57 ◼   ► By some, not by others.

00:54:59 ◼   ► Well okay sure, sure. I will start with a quote from this Macworld piece. "Over the

00:55:05 ◼   ► last few years it started to feel like both the Mac and the iPad are increasingly limited

00:55:09 ◼   ► by an artificial barrier that Apple has placed between them."

00:55:13 ◼   ► So with the context of the idea

00:55:15 ◼   ► that Apple may be starting to charge more money

00:55:17 ◼   ► for the iPad, I think it's important for us to look at,

00:55:20 ◼   ► well, what do we want from that then?

00:55:23 ◼   ► If that's the case.

00:55:24 ◼   ► - Where is that value?

00:55:25 ◼   ► Who is using it?

00:55:26 ◼   ► And I've been thinking about this for a while.

00:55:30 ◼   ► I actually had an outline for a much longer story about it.

00:55:32 ◼   ► I dare I say Federico Vittucci kind of length story.

00:55:35 ◼   ► And I just couldn't crack it.

00:55:37 ◼   ► I couldn't figure it out.

00:55:38 ◼   ► And so I essentially wrote part of that story

00:55:42 ◼   ► in this Mac world piece.

00:55:43 ◼   ► And there's one paragraph in it that's literally

00:55:46 ◼   ► is supposed to be a whole other story that we'll get to,

00:55:49 ◼   ► or, you know, I'll get to it or I won't, we'll see.

00:55:51 ◼   ► And I know we've talked about this subject here a little bit,

00:55:53 ◼   ► but like, I wanted to get it down,

00:55:55 ◼   ► 'cause I feel like as time goes on,

00:55:57 ◼   ► I am increasingly uneasy about the path of the iPad

00:56:01 ◼   ► and the Mac and the fact that the,

00:56:05 ◼   ► there are rules inside Apple that seem, you know,

00:56:08 ◼   ► also I should say that rumor of a touchscreen Mac

00:56:10 ◼   ► also set this off, 'cause it's like,

00:56:11 ◼   ► well, wait a second, that breaks one of the rules.

00:56:13 ◼   ► And I think that's good.

00:56:14 ◼   ► And I think it'll be interesting to see

00:56:15 ◼   ► where they go with it.

00:56:16 ◼   ► But like the iPad is not allowed to do certain things

00:56:21 ◼   ► and the Mac is not allowed to do certain things.

00:56:23 ◼   ► And it feels like the rules are really,

00:56:25 ◼   ► we gotta keep those apart

00:56:27 ◼   ► because that's what separates the Mac and the iPad.

00:56:30 ◼   ► And I don't know how it's gonna go,

00:56:33 ◼   ► but it feels like the way forward should probably be

00:56:38 ◼   ► that the Mac and the iPad should be able to do

00:56:40 ◼   ► whatever they need to do, regardless of those rules.

00:56:44 ◼   ► And that rule, whether it's an unwritten rule

00:56:46 ◼   ► or it's actually, you know, stated inside Apple,

00:56:49 ◼   ► that neither the twain shall meet,

00:56:52 ◼   ► leads you down this path that's like,

00:56:54 ◼   ► I'd say antithetical to the Steve Jobs kind of ethos

00:56:57 ◼   ► of you be your own replacement kind of thing.

00:57:00 ◼   ► And it's more like, no, no, no, let's protect them both.

00:57:03 ◼   ► I don't know why we, you know,

00:57:05 ◼   ► I don't know why we ended up here.

00:57:06 ◼   ► I have some suspicions that the Mac was out of favor

00:57:08 ◼   ► within Apple for a while and it was just gonna be

00:57:11 ◼   ► kind of put off on an ice flow and be the legacy product.

00:57:14 ◼   ► And that the iPad was viewed as the future

00:57:16 ◼   ► of desktop platforms, future of computers is the iPad.

00:57:19 ◼   ► Right, they did the marketing.

00:57:20 ◼   ► It felt for a long time, like Apple is like the future,

00:57:24 ◼   ► we're reinventing what a computer is.

00:57:27 ◼   ► And there have been moments where I felt that

00:57:28 ◼   ► like when the cursor support came out in early 2020.

00:57:32 ◼   ► It's like, oh, look, they took what the Mac did

00:57:34 ◼   ► and they kind of did a modern spin on it.

00:57:37 ◼   ► and they improved it in a bunch of ways.

00:57:39 ◼   ► And that was really exciting.

00:57:41 ◼   ► But mostly over the last few years,

00:57:44 ◼   ► what it feels like is the iPad has gotten features

00:57:46 ◼   ► that are not as good as the Mac.

00:57:48 ◼   ► They're like a light version of a feature that the Mac has.

00:57:53 ◼   ► And it's made me increasingly uneasy

00:57:56 ◼   ► that Apple no longer really believes

00:57:59 ◼   ► that the iPad is the future of computing,

00:58:01 ◼   ► but that the iPad is sort of a limited version of computing.

00:58:06 ◼   ► And that if you want the full version,

00:58:08 ◼   ► then you get a Mac instead.

00:58:10 ◼   ► Whether it's files, which again is much more capable

00:58:13 ◼   ► than it used to be, but it's also still not

00:58:15 ◼   ► as capable as the Finder,

00:58:16 ◼   ► whether it's something like Stage Manager,

00:58:17 ◼   ► which allows you to have windows,

00:58:19 ◼   ► but not move them where you want them to go.

00:58:21 ◼   ► And I had this thought, and it's one line

00:58:25 ◼   ► in that piece in Mac world, but I had this thought,

00:58:27 ◼   ► but it stuck with me.

00:58:28 ◼   ► And I wanna expand on it at some point

00:58:30 ◼   ► in a written article, but the thought was,

00:58:34 ◼   ► maybe the iPad Pro was a mistake.

00:58:37 ◼   ► And I say that because Apple has invested

00:58:39 ◼   ► a lot of time and energy into pushing the iPad OS up

00:58:44 ◼   ► and adding these features that are kind of Mac-like,

00:58:48 ◼   ► but not quite.

00:58:49 ◼   ► And the only people who seem to want them

00:58:52 ◼   ► are the power users of the iPad.

00:58:54 ◼   ► But in the end, I'm not sure anybody is satisfied, right?

00:58:59 ◼   ► Like I think the power users,

00:59:00 ◼   ► at least the ones that I talked to,

00:59:02 ◼   ► and I am sort of one of those two,

00:59:04 ◼   ► feel like they don't go far enough.

00:59:06 ◼   ► And I think also there's a real concern

00:59:09 ◼   ► that these are features that the regular iPad users

00:59:12 ◼   ► don't want, don't need, and don't understand.

00:59:15 ◼   ► And part of me thinks, would we all be better off

00:59:18 ◼   ► if Apple embraced iPad-like things in the Mac

00:59:22 ◼   ► to serve that audience?

00:59:24 ◼   ► And let the iPad not get kind of polluted

00:59:27 ◼   ► with attempts to be sort of Mac-like

00:59:30 ◼   ► and just let the iPad be what it's great at

00:59:34 ◼   ► which is the stuff that's the kind of more

00:59:36 ◼   ► mainstream features that people who use an iPad base model

00:59:40 ◼   ► or an iPad Air use.

00:59:42 ◼   ► And that's a big idea.

00:59:44 ◼   ► And as somebody who's been a big advocate for the iPad Pro,

00:59:47 ◼   ► I am troubled by the fact that I have had this thought,

00:59:49 ◼   ► but I have had this thought that like maybe the reason

00:59:53 ◼   ► we're on this path is because at some point

00:59:55 ◼   ► in the last 10 years, Apple thought the Mac was going away

00:59:58 ◼   ► and that the iPad had to be built to replace it.

01:00:00 ◼   ► And then they changed direction.

01:00:02 ◼   ► And now we're left in this state where the iPad

01:00:04 ◼   ► is not quite a Mac.

01:00:06 ◼   ► And it's all exacerbated by the fact

01:00:08 ◼   ► that they all run the same hardware.

01:00:10 ◼   ► So you can't have that excuse anymore

01:00:12 ◼   ► about like, why does this do this and this not do this?

01:00:15 ◼   ► The answer is, 'cause Apple's chosen

01:00:17 ◼   ► that the software won't go there.

01:00:19 ◼   ► Because otherwise like the M2 is the,

01:00:21 ◼   ► it's an M2 iPad Pro and it's an M2 MacBook Air.

01:00:24 ◼   ► They're the same essentially.

01:00:26 ◼   ► And on top of that,

01:00:28 ◼   ► the one of the points of this article is,

01:00:31 ◼   ► the Mac can't be a convertible, can't have a touchscreen,

01:00:35 ◼   ► can't do any of those experiments,

01:00:37 ◼   ► can't have like a touch mode that's like an iPad,

01:00:39 ◼   ► and the iPad can't be a laptop.

01:00:41 ◼   ► It can be kind of a laptop, but not really,

01:00:43 ◼   ► because that's the Mac's thing.

01:00:45 ◼   ► And like if the touchscreen MacBook Pro

01:00:49 ◼   ► is a breaking down of barriers

01:00:50 ◼   ► and not a very conservative, limited, simple implementation,

01:00:54 ◼   ► then that's a great sign.

01:00:56 ◼   ► But I don't know, I just,

01:00:58 ◼   ► I am having a little bit of a crisis of faith

01:01:00 ◼   ► about the iPad Pro. And I think that the core of it is,

01:01:05 ◼   ► I am no longer convinced that Apple thinks the iPad Pro

01:01:10 ◼   ► needs to be a powerful computer for people who are pros.

01:01:15 ◼   ► It feels more like they want to go up to a certain point

01:01:20 ◼   ► and then stop there.

01:01:22 ◼   ► And so when I look at these reports

01:01:23 ◼   ► about the expensive OLED iPads,

01:01:25 ◼   ► that comes into my mind too, which is like,

01:01:27 ◼   ► well, why would I pay $1,800 for an iPad Pro?

01:01:31 ◼   ► What value are you gonna give me for that?

01:01:33 ◼   ► That I couldn't get from like,

01:01:34 ◼   ► maybe I should buy a MacBook Air and an iPad Air.

01:01:36 ◼   ► Maybe that's what I should do if I'm not gonna be able,

01:01:39 ◼   ► 'cause how much more value can,

01:01:40 ◼   ► if it can't become a Mac and you're really limited

01:01:44 ◼   ► in what you're adding to iPad OS,

01:01:45 ◼   ► how can you inscribe enough value in it for it to be $1,500?

01:01:50 ◼   ► - So I will say that you saying that,

01:01:54 ◼   ► I think I'm pretty much in agreement

01:01:58 ◼   ► and I'm willing to say definitively

01:02:02 ◼   ► what you're not 100% sure of is yes,

01:02:04 ◼   ► I actually think the iPad Pro branding was a mistake.

01:02:09 ◼   ► - A mistake, yeah. - It was a mistake.

01:02:11 ◼   ► It shouldn't have been branded this way.

01:02:13 ◼   ► - They couldn't back it up, right?

01:02:15 ◼   ► It's been eight years, eight years, I think?

01:02:17 ◼   ► They couldn't back it up.

01:02:18 ◼   ► - But the counterpoint that I will also make,

01:02:21 ◼   ► even though I believe that,

01:02:22 ◼   ► is I am not completely,

01:02:26 ◼   ► I would have to do a thorough research project

01:02:30 ◼   ► on how has Apple actually marketed this product?

01:02:35 ◼   ► What have they said that it is to be used for?

01:02:41 ◼   ► Because most of the time they are talking about

01:02:44 ◼   ► some form of creative projects

01:02:47 ◼   ► and they're very specific about the types of things

01:02:49 ◼   ► that they talk about because obviously

01:02:51 ◼   ► it can't do everything, right?

01:02:53 ◼   ► And so like, I feel like potentially

01:02:56 ◼   ► it falls somewhere in the middle of like,

01:02:58 ◼   ► Apple has been pretty clear about what they think

01:03:00 ◼   ► it can be used for, however, that branding, pro,

01:03:04 ◼   ► and also to talk about the things that we talk about

01:03:07 ◼   ► all the time, like the power of the machine,

01:03:10 ◼   ► they just, those two things are completely wrong.

01:03:12 ◼   ► Where, you know, alternate timeline, iPad Studio,

01:03:17 ◼   ► this is a creative machine for artists,

01:03:21 ◼   ► would have made a lot more sense.

01:03:23 ◼   ► - Right, especially since they introduced it

01:03:25 ◼   ► with the Apple Pencil, right?

01:03:26 ◼   ► That was one of the first things they did.

01:03:28 ◼   ► - But then they brought,

01:03:28 ◼   ► but they also introduced it with a keyboard,

01:03:30 ◼   ► which is like that is more traditional worky, right?

01:03:33 ◼   ► And they have done, since the introduction

01:03:37 ◼   ► of the original iPad Pro in 2015 to now,

01:03:40 ◼   ► like the iPad Pro and the iPad OS is much better

01:03:43 ◼   ► for very basic work tasks, right?

01:03:48 ◼   ► That is undeniable.

01:03:49 ◼   ► But I just said the word basic, right?

01:03:52 ◼   ► Which is not what a pro machine should be.

01:03:55 ◼   ► No, of course, I think part of the expectation here

01:04:00 ◼   ► falls on us of what we want the machine to do, right?

01:04:05 ◼   ► And kind of what we believe a pro iPad should do.

01:04:10 ◼   ► But that, again, it falls down to this idea

01:04:12 ◼   ► of like, we can only compare this to other,

01:04:16 ◼   ► like the MacBook Pro, right?

01:04:18 ◼   ► Because remember the iPhone wasn't Pro then either.

01:04:20 ◼   ► 'Cause like you could argue, and I would argue

01:04:22 ◼   ► the iPhone Pro follows the iPad Pro

01:04:25 ◼   ► in like what it realistically does that's different.

01:04:29 ◼   ► But the iPad Pro kind of could follow the MacBook Pro

01:04:32 ◼   ► as like, well, this should be more powerful

01:04:34 ◼   ► and therefore should be better in a bunch of ways.

01:04:37 ◼   ► And Apple have pushed the product forward.

01:04:39 ◼   ► But like, I would even say,

01:04:41 ◼   ► potentially even a bigger mistake is iPad OS.

01:04:44 ◼   ► - Right, separating it out.

01:04:46 ◼   ► And this is, yeah, this is the real challenge here is,

01:04:50 ◼   ► I'm not saying that I don't love my iPad 'cause I do.

01:04:53 ◼   ► I'm not saying I don't use it to do lots of stuff.

01:04:55 ◼   ► I literally wrote this article on an iPad, okay?

01:04:57 ◼   ► - Yep.

01:04:58 ◼   ► - In a stand with a mechanical keyboard

01:05:02 ◼   ► and a Magic Trackpad.

01:05:04 ◼   ► - But you were doing all of that before the iPad Pro

01:05:08 ◼   ► before iPadOS, right?

01:05:09 ◼   ► Like that never changed. - That's true.

01:05:11 ◼   ► And when I bring up this mysterious moment

01:05:14 ◼   ► that somebody inside Apple would have to actually say

01:05:16 ◼   ► if it was true or not,

01:05:17 ◼   ► but like it felt very much like there was a shift in gears

01:05:21 ◼   ► where the Mac went from being a legacy product

01:05:24 ◼   ► to being the future.

01:05:24 ◼   ► And maybe the decision to bring that to Apple Silicon

01:05:28 ◼   ► and to really lean into the Mac was part of it.

01:05:30 ◼   ► I don't know.

01:05:31 ◼   ► That's just all I can read from the outside,

01:05:32 ◼   ► but it sure feels like the Mac got it back together.

01:05:37 ◼   ► And I'm now starting to feel like as a part of that,

01:05:40 ◼   ► the iPad got deprioritized

01:05:42 ◼   ► because the iPad was no longer Apple's future bridge

01:05:45 ◼   ► from the legacy product of the Mac.

01:05:47 ◼   ► And it was more just another product in the lineup, right?

01:05:50 ◼   ► It was another part of Apple's.

01:05:51 ◼   ► And I'm not saying that it's bad.

01:05:53 ◼   ► I'm saying it's no longer,

01:05:55 ◼   ► let's solve for a world where in 10 years,

01:05:57 ◼   ► the iPad can do enough

01:06:00 ◼   ► that we don't need to have macOS anymore.

01:06:02 ◼   ► And I don't know whether they were actually headed there

01:06:04 ◼   ► or not, but it certainly doesn't feel like they are now.

01:06:07 ◼   ► Everything is sort of like a little bit.

01:06:10 ◼   ► And honestly, I'm gonna give an optimistic view here

01:06:14 ◼   ► and say, I think one of the challenges here is also like,

01:06:17 ◼   ► if you look at "Stage Manager,"

01:06:19 ◼   ► "Stage Manager," I'm not as down on it as Federico.

01:06:22 ◼   ► I think it's got a lot going for it,

01:06:24 ◼   ► and I think it could get a lot better.

01:06:26 ◼   ► I think the challenge there is that I have a hard time

01:06:31 ◼   ► seeing it as being the answer to the question

01:06:34 ◼   ► of like, how do we do a full desktop environment

01:06:37 ◼   ► on the iPad?

01:06:38 ◼   ► It feels much more to me like,

01:06:40 ◼   ► we're gonna give you just enough

01:06:41 ◼   ► that you stop complaining,

01:06:44 ◼   ► but we're not gonna take it all the rest of the way.

01:06:46 ◼   ► And that comes from prioritization inside Apple.

01:06:49 ◼   ► It feels like they're either not capable of it,

01:06:52 ◼   ► or they're not given the resources to do it,

01:06:55 ◼   ► or they've decided not to push it.

01:06:57 ◼   ► And then on the other side,

01:06:59 ◼   ► you know, is the Mac that is now running Apple Silicon

01:07:01 ◼   ► and now can theoretically run iPad apps, right?

01:07:04 ◼   ► They built a whole infrastructure

01:07:05 ◼   ► where the Mac can run iPad apps.

01:07:07 ◼   ► And this is what I keep coming back to is,

01:07:10 ◼   ► well, if all the hardware is the same

01:07:11 ◼   ► and you're gonna add a touchscreen,

01:07:13 ◼   ► and I will grant you that a convertible PC laptop

01:07:16 ◼   ► is not as good as a proper laptop, ergonomically,

01:07:21 ◼   ► it's got a lot of weird issues, but it is convertible,

01:07:23 ◼   ► it's got that going for it.

01:07:25 ◼   ► At that point, isn't Mac OS capable of running,

01:07:29 ◼   ► if it's got a touchscreen and it can run iPad apps,

01:07:31 ◼   ► isn't it basically an iPad mode?

01:07:33 ◼   ► Aren't you basically in an iPad mode now?

01:07:36 ◼   ► And if maybe that's the solution is,

01:07:39 ◼   ► look, stop asking for more pro features on the iPad.

01:07:41 ◼   ► What you really want is a Mac.

01:07:43 ◼   ► Oh, but you say you like the iPad apps

01:07:45 ◼   ► and you like the tablet thing.

01:07:46 ◼   ► It's like, all right, we're gonna let you do that.

01:07:48 ◼   ► We're gonna let you fold the keyboard back

01:07:50 ◼   ► or pop it off or whatever.

01:07:52 ◼   ► And we're gonna let you do both if you want to.

01:07:54 ◼   ► And I know that Apple has poo-pooed this idea for a while,

01:07:57 ◼   ► but I'm actually not saying of like

01:07:58 ◼   ► merging the operating systems.

01:08:00 ◼   ► I'm saying, and I think this is where I'm converging on

01:08:04 ◼   ► as I write these articles is,

01:08:06 ◼   ► I'm saying that maybe it was a mistake to make iPad Pro

01:08:11 ◼   ► when what you really ought to have done

01:08:14 ◼   ► is make iPad mode work on certain Mac devices.

01:08:19 ◼   ► Maybe that would have been a better path forward

01:08:24 ◼   ► for those people who keep pushing iPad OS

01:08:26 ◼   ► because they like,

01:08:27 ◼   ► 'cause like why does Federico Viticci like the iPad?

01:08:31 ◼   ► And he and I have, we'd send texts back and forth

01:08:33 ◼   ► every now and then when something dramatic happens,

01:08:35 ◼   ► like we both came to the same conclusion,

01:08:37 ◼   ► which is it's actually about ergonomics.

01:08:39 ◼   ► It's about the fact that it's a convertible device

01:08:41 ◼   ► that can be pencil driven, finger driven,

01:08:44 ◼   ► keyboard and trackpad driven, just keyboard driven.

01:08:47 ◼   ► It can be, it can look like a laptop.

01:08:48 ◼   ► It can look like a pure touch tablet.

01:08:51 ◼   ► It can be in a dock and drive a big display.

01:08:54 ◼   ► It can do all of those things.

01:08:56 ◼   ► and the Mac can only do some of those things.

01:08:58 ◼   ► That's the great thing about the iPad.

01:08:59 ◼   ► But if that's the case,

01:09:01 ◼   ► if you made a Mac that did those things,

01:09:03 ◼   ► you wouldn't need an iPad.

01:09:06 ◼   ► You might need iPad apps and you might need iPad,

01:09:08 ◼   ► you know, OS or at least something like it,

01:09:11 ◼   ► but the Mac already runs iPad apps.

01:09:13 ◼   ► It already, we're already there, right?

01:09:15 ◼   ► It's already running Apple Silicon.

01:09:16 ◼   ► It will literally run apps that are just made for the iPad.

01:09:19 ◼   ► So we're kind of most of the way there.

01:09:20 ◼   ► This is, so this is what I struggle with is

01:09:23 ◼   ► The iPad seems to be letting people down at the high end,

01:09:27 ◼   ► not anywhere else, that the stuff at the high end,

01:09:31 ◼   ► can they ever be pleased?

01:09:33 ◼   ► Can those users ever be pleased

01:09:35 ◼   ► without it turning into a Mac?

01:09:36 ◼   ► And at some point if you're Apple,

01:09:38 ◼   ► do you say, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa,

01:09:40 ◼   ► you don't want a Mac or you don't want an iPad,

01:09:44 ◼   ► you want a Mac.

01:09:45 ◼   ► And that gets me to the wall that I talked about,

01:09:47 ◼   ► the artificial barrier, which is,

01:09:49 ◼   ► it feels to me like right now and for the last few years,

01:09:53 ◼   ► The problem has been the Mac can't be an iPad

01:09:55 ◼   ► and the iPad can't be a Mac.

01:09:57 ◼   ► They can get close, but they can never cross over

01:09:59 ◼   ► because it's not allowed.

01:10:01 ◼   ► And I feel like they're reaching the end

01:10:03 ◼   ► of the, of their limita-

01:10:05 ◼   ► or, you know, the edge of their limitations at that point

01:10:08 ◼   ► without being able to stray over there.

01:10:11 ◼   ► And one of the thoughts that drove me in this direction

01:10:13 ◼   ► was the touchscreen rumor on the MacBook Pro.

01:10:17 ◼   ► And the other thought was our conversation

01:10:18 ◼   ► about allowing apps from outside the app store

01:10:21 ◼   ► to be installed on iPad OS.

01:10:24 ◼   ► Because I had that moment where I thought,

01:10:26 ◼   ► well, couldn't you just run macOS in a VM

01:10:29 ◼   ► on an M2 iPad Pro?

01:10:30 ◼   ► And wouldn't it actually work pretty well

01:10:33 ◼   ► in a virtual machine environment?

01:10:35 ◼   ► Not even having to reboot,

01:10:36 ◼   ► but just put it in a run Parallels or VMware Fusion for iPad

01:10:41 ◼   ► and boot macOS and put it in a Magic Keyboard.

01:10:46 ◼   ► And don't you have a macOS laptop that's also an iPad?

01:10:49 ◼   ► Like, not saying that would happen,

01:10:51 ◼   ► but I'm saying it absolutely could happen.

01:10:54 ◼   ► It's completely possible that you could do that.

01:10:57 ◼   ► Or you could do a boot if Apple wanted to support that.

01:10:59 ◼   ► Like all of that's on the table, but it doesn't exist.

01:11:03 ◼   ► And that's, I mean,

01:11:04 ◼   ► that's the source of my frustration about this is it,

01:11:07 ◼   ► it, you know, I can't do either of those things.

01:11:09 ◼   ► I can't make my iPad, I can make my iPad a laptop,

01:11:12 ◼   ► but I can't make it a Mac.

01:11:13 ◼   ► And I can't make my MacBook Air an iPad.

01:11:17 ◼   ► So, you know, I feel like something has gone wrong here.

01:11:21 ◼   ► That's fundamentally.

01:11:23 ◼   ► - There was a different timeline, you know?

01:11:27 ◼   ► - Yes. - There are like

01:11:28 ◼   ► two different timelines.

01:11:29 ◼   ► Like one is where the iPad just kind of remained

01:11:33 ◼   ► what an iPad always was,

01:11:34 ◼   ► that they never tried to push it further,

01:11:37 ◼   ► or they actually did the thing, you know?

01:11:40 ◼   ► And they made a macOS bootable mode on iPadOS.

01:11:43 ◼   ► - You're right, and we're in between them.

01:11:44 ◼   ► And that is the feeling I get.

01:11:46 ◼   ► Again, I don't have any facts about what's happening

01:11:49 ◼   ► inside of Apple and what has happened over the last decade.

01:11:51 ◼   ► But that is, Mike, I think that's exactly how I'm feeling,

01:11:54 ◼   ► which is, there's a world in which the iPad

01:11:57 ◼   ► is never pushed up into Mac feature territory.

01:12:01 ◼   ► And the Mac at some point goes to Apple Silicon and says,

01:12:04 ◼   ► oh, guess what?

01:12:05 ◼   ► We made a convertible,

01:12:07 ◼   ► we were able to make a convertible Mac now

01:12:08 ◼   ► that can be an iPad sometimes.

01:12:10 ◼   ► You're like, oh, well, that's cool.

01:12:11 ◼   ► I like iPad apps and I like tablets.

01:12:14 ◼   ► And then sometimes I need to go back to my work.

01:12:16 ◼   ► There's also a timeline where Apple said,

01:12:18 ◼   ► and I, again, no evidence, but it feels like it's true.

01:12:22 ◼   ► Maybe it's not true, but it sure feels like

01:12:24 ◼   ► anybody who spent a lot of time looking at Apple

01:12:26 ◼   ► and the Mac in the mid 2010s,

01:12:28 ◼   ► it felt like the Mac had been abandoned.

01:12:30 ◼   ► It really felt like the Mac had been abandoned.

01:12:33 ◼   ► And I think there's a scenario where they're like,

01:12:35 ◼   ► Mac, Intel, legacy hardware over there,

01:12:38 ◼   ► iPad OS, we're gonna build it up.

01:12:40 ◼   ► By the time we need to kill the Mac,

01:12:42 ◼   ► we will have made a, you know,

01:12:44 ◼   ► we will have moved the Mac to Apple,

01:12:45 ◼   ► maybe, or maybe it just stays on Intel,

01:12:47 ◼   ► but we will move Mac compatibility to iPad OS,

01:12:51 ◼   ► and we'll have that keyboard and trackpad and all of that,

01:12:54 ◼   ► and you'll be able to run Mac stuff,

01:12:56 ◼   ► and maybe we'll do a desktop down the road, who knows?

01:12:58 ◼   ► But like, eventually there'll be a crossover point

01:13:01 ◼   ► where the iPad is also the Mac,

01:13:03 ◼   ► and we'll solve that problem.

01:13:06 ◼   ► And so when the Mac fades away, we keep all those users,

01:13:10 ◼   ► and we maybe even find a way to run that legacy software.

01:13:13 ◼   ► We'll have them recompile it for Apple Silicon,

01:13:15 ◼   ► and we'll do that, like that was a scenario.

01:13:18 ◼   ► But we're in neither of those scenarios.

01:13:19 ◼   ► We are in this weird intermixed scenario

01:13:23 ◼   ► where the Mac can't be that, the iPad can't be that.

01:13:25 ◼   ► And that's, I mean, it's okay.

01:13:29 ◼   ► But when I look at the future of this,

01:13:30 ◼   ► and when we talk about rumors like that OLED iPad Pro,

01:13:33 ◼   ► I think to myself, what are we doing here?

01:13:35 ◼   ► Like, what is the goal of the iPad Pro?

01:13:38 ◼   ► Is the goal of the iPad Pro and iPad OS

01:13:40 ◼   ► to keep pushing up market?

01:13:42 ◼   ► Because I could make an argument

01:13:44 ◼   ► that that gets harder and harder.

01:13:46 ◼   ► And what the iPad is best at is not the stuff

01:13:48 ◼   ► that's up, up, up.

01:13:50 ◼   ► It's the stuff that's in the middle.

01:13:52 ◼   ► It's the stuff that's more mainstream,

01:13:54 ◼   ► just using nice apps to scroll through the internet.

01:13:56 ◼   ► And that all this effort going into pushing the high end

01:14:00 ◼   ► of the iPad to be more capable,

01:14:01 ◼   ► like, is it worth it to do that?

01:14:05 ◼   ► Is it worth it to do that?

01:14:07 ◼   ► If it's never gonna be enough

01:14:10 ◼   ► for a lot of the people who are up there?

01:14:12 ◼   ► And again, maybe for some people it is enough.

01:14:14 ◼   ► Maybe for the people who are getting, you know,

01:14:16 ◼   ► doing DaVinci Resolve,

01:14:17 ◼   ► or they're doing incredible artwork on it,

01:14:20 ◼   ► and then they're happy for it to be that.

01:14:23 ◼   ► Maybe that's the answer.

01:14:24 ◼   ► Maybe the answer is everybody who thought

01:14:26 ◼   ► that it was gonna be a more broad productivity machine,

01:14:28 ◼   ► it's not, that is gonna remain the Mac.

01:14:31 ◼   ► And there'll be some nice things up there.

01:14:33 ◼   ► But it's hard to look at something like Stage Manager

01:14:35 ◼   ► and say, okay, well, that,

01:14:36 ◼   ► does that fit that profile I just described?

01:14:39 ◼   ► I don't think it does.

01:14:41 ◼   ► I think it feels it fits a more broad productivity profile

01:14:43 ◼   ► that I don't think is.

01:14:45 ◼   ► - Stage manager, the files app, all of the iWork apps,

01:14:49 ◼   ► you know, like all of this stuff was made for it to be

01:14:53 ◼   ► a replacement for the Mac.

01:14:56 ◼   ► - It's sure pointing in that direction, right?

01:14:57 ◼   ► And yet, when you look at a lot of these features,

01:14:59 ◼   ► and I had somebody on Mastodon say,

01:15:01 ◼   ► to me and Federico is like,

01:15:04 ◼   ► "What has changed in the last two years?"

01:15:05 ◼   ► Like you guys used to be really into this

01:15:07 ◼   ► and now you're complaining about it, what has changed?

01:15:08 ◼   ► And he was a little argumentative about it.

01:15:10 ◼   ► But like what I said is, well, one thing is,

01:15:12 ◼   ► two years have passed,

01:15:13 ◼   ► in addition to the other years that have passed,

01:15:16 ◼   ► and we're waiting, and now I'm starting to feel like

01:15:18 ◼   ► Apple's commitment is not full.

01:15:21 ◼   ► And then I had that question in my head, which is,

01:15:23 ◼   ► and should it be?

01:15:24 ◼   ► Like, should they?

01:15:26 ◼   ► Should they?

01:15:27 ◼   ► Their heart certainly isn't in it.

01:15:28 ◼   ► Like, I don't feel like Apple believes,

01:15:30 ◼   ► it's just fundamentally,

01:15:31 ◼   ► I don't feel like Apple believes

01:15:32 ◼   ► that the iPad is the future of computing.

01:15:34 ◼   ► I don't.

01:15:35 ◼   ► I don't think they believe that.

01:15:36 ◼   ► - I believe that they believed it at one point.

01:15:40 ◼   ► I absolutely believe that they believed it at one point,

01:15:42 ◼   ► but now I think that they are so high on record Mac sales

01:15:46 ◼   ► and how great the Mac is on Apple Silicon

01:15:48 ◼   ► and the fact that they've now rolled iPad compatibility,

01:15:50 ◼   ► app compatibility into Macs that they're not.

01:15:55 ◼   ► And that's okay, right?

01:15:56 ◼   ► Like I'm not saying how dare you.

01:15:58 ◼   ► I was told the iPad would be the future.

01:16:01 ◼   ► What I'm saying is it doesn't feel like the iPad

01:16:03 ◼   ► is the future anymore.

01:16:04 ◼   ► It now feels like the iPad is a compromise

01:16:07 ◼   ► that brings some things to the iPad side

01:16:11 ◼   ► that are familiar to Mac users,

01:16:13 ◼   ► but doesn't really go all the way

01:16:14 ◼   ► because the Mac is that, and that's fine, right?

01:16:17 ◼   ► Like, I feel like that's where we are right now.

01:16:20 ◼   ► And when I say maybe the iPad Pro was a mistake,

01:16:24 ◼   ► that's sort of what I'm actually getting at,

01:16:26 ◼   ► is the iPad Pro era when it started,

01:16:29 ◼   ► it felt like, oh, here we go.

01:16:30 ◼   ► Apple has a vision for the future of computing

01:16:33 ◼   ► and it's the iPad.

01:16:34 ◼   ► And that is absolutely not the case.

01:16:36 ◼   ► I see no evidence that that's the case now.

01:16:38 ◼   ► I think that they wanna make the iPad nice

01:16:39 ◼   ► and have some nice features.

01:16:41 ◼   ► And if they can sell some iPad Pros for 12 or 13 or 15

01:16:44 ◼   ► or 18 or whatever the number is, $100, then great.

01:16:48 ◼   ► But the Mac is the future of the Mac now.

01:16:51 ◼   ► And as a long time Mac user, that's great.

01:16:54 ◼   ► But it brings me back to my other problem was,

01:16:56 ◼   ► which is, but I like the ergonomic adaptability of the iPad.

01:17:00 ◼   ► And if you're not gonna give me Mac features on my iPad,

01:17:02 ◼   ► how about giving me an iPad features on my Mac?

01:17:04 ◼   ► And that's, there's the wall, which is like, no, no, no,

01:17:07 ◼   ► Macs are laptops.

01:17:08 ◼   ► They're never detachable.

01:17:10 ◼   ► They're never touch tablets.

01:17:12 ◼   ► It's not allowed.

01:17:13 ◼   ► And I guess it's very Apple to say, just buy one of each,

01:17:16 ◼   ► but I'll tell you, in the long run,

01:17:18 ◼   ► if I know that the iPad is never gonna be a Mac in that way,

01:17:23 ◼   ► the functionality of a Mac that lets me do my job

01:17:27 ◼   ► and travel just with an iPad.

01:17:29 ◼   ► I'm already headed there.

01:17:30 ◼   ► I've seen Federico is headed there.

01:17:32 ◼   ► I think you are headed there.

01:17:33 ◼   ► - 100%.

01:17:34 ◼   ► - I mean, I use an iPad mini now, it's the only one I use.

01:17:37 ◼   ► - Yeah, right, so that's the point,

01:17:38 ◼   ► and I travel with a MacBook Air now,

01:17:40 ◼   ► and it's only a matter of time before I say,

01:17:42 ◼   ► "You know what, I'm just gonna get a Mac or an iPad Air."

01:17:46 ◼   ► Forget the iPad Pro, because I have given up

01:17:51 ◼   ► attempting to do work on it, or at least serious work on it.

01:17:55 ◼   ► I'm always traveling with my MacBook Air,

01:17:57 ◼   ► so what are we even doing here?

01:17:59 ◼   ► I'll just drop down the price list

01:18:01 ◼   ► to something that is a perfectly nice touch tablet,

01:18:05 ◼   ► and then I'll do all the other work on Mac OS.

01:18:08 ◼   ► And I mean, that's fine, but that is what's different.

01:18:12 ◼   ► That is what's changed, is it's no longer like

01:18:14 ◼   ► we're pointed in the direction of the future.

01:18:16 ◼   ► It's more like, well, the iPad also exists.

01:18:20 ◼   ► - I'm very happy with where the iPad sits in my lineup.

01:18:23 ◼   ► - I love my iPad. - I love it.

01:18:25 ◼   ► But now I feel like I have the right iPad

01:18:27 ◼   ► at the right price and the right form factor

01:18:29 ◼   ► for what I want it for, which is like the perfect

01:18:32 ◼   ► little consumption device for me when I'm at home.

01:18:34 ◼   ► - I'd probably go down in size.

01:18:35 ◼   ► I mean, obviously if I got the Air, I would go down in size

01:18:38 ◼   ► 'cause I've got the big one, right?

01:18:39 ◼   ► And I love the big screen, but it's heavy.

01:18:40 ◼   ► And every time I pick up Lauren's smaller iPad Pro,

01:18:42 ◼   ► I think, oh, this is really nice.

01:18:44 ◼   ► Like it doesn't fit as much stuff,

01:18:46 ◼   ► but it's like so much nicer.

01:18:47 ◼   ► And I think to myself, well, if I'm not,

01:18:49 ◼   ► if I'm not using it when I'm traveling for work

01:18:52 ◼   ► or I'm not, you know, attaching it to a stand

01:18:55 ◼   ► and using it that way, like if I'm just sort of like

01:18:58 ◼   ► committing to the touch tablet part of it,

01:19:01 ◼   ► I could get away with a smaller iPad, for sure,

01:19:04 ◼   ► and a cheaper iPad, absolutely I could.

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01:22:07 ◼   ► I have some Ask Upgrade questions.

01:22:09 ◼   ► Michael wants to know,

01:22:12 ◼   ► how long do you prepare for each show?

01:22:14 ◼   ► Is there a rule of thumb you use to estimate the amount

01:22:17 ◼   ► to prepare for each minute of the show?

01:22:19 ◼   ► My co-hosts and I on my podcast always try to balance

01:22:22 ◼   ► between preparation and spontaneity

01:22:24 ◼   ► when it comes to our recordings.

01:22:26 ◼   ► - Well, let's start with you because this one,

01:22:29 ◼   ► you build the show doc,

01:22:30 ◼   ► so you're the one who's doing the heavy lifting

01:22:32 ◼   ► before the show.

01:22:33 ◼   ► - So I don't have a rule of like,

01:22:36 ◼   ► how long I should prepare for the runtime,

01:22:39 ◼   ► 'cause also as well,

01:22:40 ◼   ► we don't know what the runtime's gonna be.

01:22:42 ◼   ► Me and Jason are very good at keeping the show

01:22:44 ◼   ► within a typical limit.

01:22:46 ◼   ► I think an hour 45 is, I reckon,

01:22:49 ◼   ► a pretty regular episode runtime for the show,

01:22:52 ◼   ► because that just fits with the way that we run the show

01:22:55 ◼   ► in the segments that we run it.

01:22:56 ◼   ► And I also think we're pretty good at just feeling out

01:22:59 ◼   ► what a segment's gonna be, so I don't think of it that way.

01:23:02 ◼   ► But what is a pretty typical equation

01:23:05 ◼   ► is I do set for every minute of the show,

01:23:08 ◼   ► I do like 30 seconds of prep.

01:23:10 ◼   ► So if the show is gonna run for two hours,

01:23:11 ◼   ► I've probably done about an hour.

01:23:13 ◼   ► So typically my preparation time for upgrade every Monday

01:23:17 ◼   ► is between one hour to 90 minutes,

01:23:19 ◼   ► depending on how deep a topic is

01:23:21 ◼   ► and how much I might wanna outline it beforehand.

01:23:24 ◼   ► That includes like all of the reading and stuff.

01:23:26 ◼   ► I'm adding like links to my notes for the whole week, right?

01:23:31 ◼   ► Like I see something pop up and I'm like,

01:23:33 ◼   ► I wanna read that on Monday.

01:23:34 ◼   ► And I try and keep all of the stuff and read it on Monday

01:23:37 ◼   ► so it's all fresh in my mind, right?

01:23:39 ◼   ► So like I saw everyone was linking to that article

01:23:41 ◼   ► that you wrote at Macworld,

01:23:42 ◼   ► but I left it till this morning.

01:23:44 ◼   ► So I read it today, have all my notes,

01:23:46 ◼   ► it's fresh in my head and I could talk about it.

01:23:47 ◼   ► So it's usually about 50% of the runtime

01:23:50 ◼   ► is how long I've prepared.

01:23:52 ◼   ► - I set aside half an hour on Friday afternoon

01:23:56 ◼   ► since by the time I wake up Monday morning,

01:23:57 ◼   ► we're doing the podcast basically,

01:23:59 ◼   ► to think about, and sometimes nothing comes of it.

01:24:03 ◼   ► And other times I am sending Mike messages

01:24:05 ◼   ► or putting them in notes or whatever

01:24:07 ◼   ► about things for the podcast.

01:24:09 ◼   ► And sometimes that will extend over the weekend

01:24:10 ◼   ► where I will send Mike a note about this thing

01:24:13 ◼   ► or that thing that we're working on.

01:24:15 ◼   ► But the truth is that it's basically the half hour

01:24:19 ◼   ► before the show that I put in the rest of that time

01:24:22 ◼   ► is I will sit down.

01:24:23 ◼   ► I mean, occasionally it's a problem

01:24:25 ◼   ► where it's like five minutes before the show

01:24:26 ◼   ► and I'm like, oh, let me look at the show doc

01:24:28 ◼   ► or it's like, wait Mike,

01:24:29 ◼   ► I'm still going through the show doc.

01:24:31 ◼   ► And sometimes Mike will five minutes before the show,

01:24:33 ◼   ► I'll be like, can we change the Snell Talk question?

01:24:35 ◼   ► But I try to make it a little more like half an hour before

01:24:38 ◼   ► where I start going through it and looking at it

01:24:40 ◼   ► and being prepared so that we'll be ready to go.

01:24:42 ◼   ► But this one's on Mike.

01:24:43 ◼   ► I mean, for the most part, I, you know,

01:24:46 ◼   ► you're the one who's doing the bulk of the prep work,

01:24:47 ◼   ► which is different for like, for downstream,

01:24:49 ◼   ► I'm the one who does that.

01:24:51 ◼   ► But for upgrade, you're the one who does it

01:24:53 ◼   ► most of the time, unless we're doing something weird

01:24:54 ◼   ► and collaborative, in which case we'll be building

01:24:56 ◼   ► the show doc in advance. - Yes, then it might change.

01:24:58 ◼   ► and then it's more work and it's a different process.

01:25:02 ◼   ► - Yeah, but for a typical episode,

01:25:04 ◼   ► I've built the run, like what we're gonna talk about.

01:25:06 ◼   ► And part of that is because like our main topic today,

01:25:10 ◼   ► well it was all stuff you'd already thought about.

01:25:12 ◼   ► Like you don't, you already wrote the article

01:25:14 ◼   ► that we were talking about.

01:25:14 ◼   ► So that kind of, you've already done the work

01:25:18 ◼   ► and now I'm doing it second than we talk about in the show.

01:25:22 ◼   ► Matthew asks, I find myself changing watch bands

01:25:25 ◼   ► several times a day based on activities

01:25:27 ◼   ► such as work, workout, sleep, that kind of thing.

01:25:30 ◼   ► Do you have a band strategy or are you just one and done?

01:25:33 ◼   ► - Cool.

01:25:34 ◼   ► Yeah, my band strategy is I do change the bands,

01:25:36 ◼   ► but I change them almost seasonally, I would say.

01:25:41 ◼   ► I mean, I change them when I'm in the mood

01:25:45 ◼   ► for a different watch band, but then I leave it on.

01:25:47 ◼   ► So this is the problem is I have like a leather band

01:25:49 ◼   ► and I don't wear it mostly because if I'm exercising

01:25:54 ◼   ► or if I'm washing the dishes or something,

01:25:57 ◼   ► I'm gonna get it wet and I don't like that.

01:25:59 ◼   ► So I end up primarily using the sport band,

01:26:04 ◼   ► the sport loop or the other loop, the nice loop.

01:26:09 ◼   ► - The braided loop?

01:26:11 ◼   ► - Yeah, the braided loop.

01:26:12 ◼   ► Those are my three that I generally do.

01:26:14 ◼   ► And the braided loop can get wet,

01:26:15 ◼   ► but I'm not as worried about it.

01:26:17 ◼   ► But I have like, when I was in New Zealand,

01:26:20 ◼   ► I had a sport band and my orange sport band on.

01:26:22 ◼   ► I came home and then I used to braided loop for a while.

01:26:24 ◼   ► Although here's the thing,

01:26:25 ◼   ► Those elastic loops, they get looser over time.

01:26:28 ◼   ► I think I want another.

01:26:30 ◼   ► My braided loops are not,

01:26:32 ◼   ► they're not like what they were before.

01:26:34 ◼   ► So I think I might actually need to,

01:26:36 ◼   ► I don't think I need a smaller size

01:26:38 ◼   ► because the smaller size is gonna really pinch.

01:26:40 ◼   ► I think I just need a new one because they've relaxed.

01:26:44 ◼   ► - That's how they get you, you know?

01:26:46 ◼   ► - They've relaxed and I don't wanna wear it

01:26:48 ◼   ► halfway up my arm.

01:26:49 ◼   ► - No. - So that is how they get you.

01:26:51 ◼   ► So, but I don't change it during the day.