Upgrade

00:00:00 ◼   ► [Music]

00:00:08 ◼   ► From Relay FM, this is Upgrade, episode 449.

00:00:13 ◼   ► Today's show is brought to you by Squarespace and Fitbod. My name is Mike Hurley, and I'm very excited

00:00:19 ◼   ► because I get to welcome back to the show my friend and yours, Mr. Jason Snell. Hi Jason!

00:00:24 ◼   ► Hi Mike! Where's Casey? Isn't Casey doing the show?

00:00:26 ◼   ► - I fired him.

00:00:28 ◼   ► - Okay.

00:00:29 ◼   ► - He's no Jason Snell.

00:00:30 ◼   ► He's a good Casey Lewis, but he's no Jason Snell.

00:00:32 ◼   ► You know what I mean?

00:00:33 ◼   ► - Aw.

00:00:33 ◼   ► - Nobody is.

00:00:34 ◼   ► - Yes, it was extremely weird to see you recording

00:00:37 ◼   ► and posting and new episodes of Upgrade appearing

00:00:41 ◼   ► in my feed.

00:00:42 ◼   ► It was extremely weird.

00:00:43 ◼   ► - I felt a pressure, so I'm happy that you're back.

00:00:46 ◼   ► You know, it's complicated, right?

00:00:49 ◼   ► To do a show that's meant to,

00:00:52 ◼   ► it's really just the two of us.

00:00:53 ◼   ► It's always the two of us.

00:00:54 ◼   ► Always you, right?

00:00:56 ◼   ► up until now. - It is.

00:00:57 ◼   ► Well, I mean, this is what I have to do when I'm,

00:00:59 ◼   ► I feel the same thing, right?

00:01:00 ◼   ► When I get guest hosts for you is,

00:01:03 ◼   ► it's a different dynamic because then,

00:01:05 ◼   ► in that case, not only am I leading the conversation,

00:01:10 ◼   ► which you take the lead here,

00:01:11 ◼   ► but it's that same thing of like, I wanna be a good host.

00:01:14 ◼   ► Like, as you said last week to Casey,

00:01:16 ◼   ► a good like house host type host of like,

00:01:19 ◼   ► clean up all the mess and here's the show document

00:01:23 ◼   ► and I'm gonna make sure I don't mess it up

00:01:24 ◼   ► and all of those things.

00:01:26 ◼   ► it's a totally different dynamic.

00:01:28 ◼   ► - I have a Snell Talk question for you that comes from me

00:01:31 ◼   ► and I would like to know, did you have a nice break?

00:01:34 ◼   ► - Yeah.

00:01:35 ◼   ► Now I let that sit there because Casey was giving me

00:01:40 ◼   ► a hard time about adding tangents to Snell Talk questions

00:01:44 ◼   ► instead of directly answering them last week.

00:01:47 ◼   ► And I just wanted to point out, and it's fresh

00:01:49 ◼   ► 'cause I listened to it on the plane.

00:01:50 ◼   ► I just wanna point out, that's what happens

00:01:52 ◼   ► if I don't do tangents to these questions.

00:01:54 ◼   ► I end up saying just like, yep.

00:01:56 ◼   ► - And then we move on and I thank everybody

00:01:57 ◼   ► for sending in their questions and we move into follow-up.

00:02:00 ◼   ► - It's just, it's a yes.

00:02:01 ◼   ► No, that would be a heck of a move

00:02:02 ◼   ► to have a yes or no question open every episode of Upgrade.

00:02:05 ◼   ► Oh, I can't wait to see if it's yes or no.

00:02:07 ◼   ► - Maybe that's the summer of fun.

00:02:08 ◼   ► - Or like a one word answer.

00:02:09 ◼   ► What's your favorite color?

00:02:10 ◼   ► Blue.

00:02:10 ◼   ► - Yeah, summer of fun is just yes or no answers

00:02:14 ◼   ► for the whole season.

00:02:15 ◼   ► - Yeah, so sometimes you gotta weave,

00:02:19 ◼   ► what I'm saying, Casey, is you gotta weave a story

00:02:22 ◼   ► and you gotta try to make it a thing because otherwise,

00:02:26 ◼   ► I mean, and it does occasionally happen

00:02:27 ◼   ► that you put a stone-top question in there

00:02:28 ◼   ► and I'm like, Mike, I have no, I have nothing for this.

00:02:30 ◼   ► I'll just be like, no.

00:02:32 ◼   ► Jason, have you ever done this?

00:02:33 ◼   ► No.

00:02:34 ◼   ► All right, great.

00:02:35 ◼   ► Moving on.

00:02:36 ◼   ► So yes, I had a nice break.

00:02:37 ◼   ► We had a great time.

00:02:38 ◼   ► It has been since your wedding

00:02:39 ◼   ► that we took two weeks away from home.

00:02:42 ◼   ► And it has been since 2004,

00:02:44 ◼   ► since my wife and I have been on a two-week vacation

00:02:46 ◼   ► together without our children, without any children.

00:02:50 ◼   ► We didn't even have, well, I mean,

00:02:51 ◼   ► technically in 2004 we did have one of our children with us,

00:02:53 ◼   ► but he was being carried on the inside.

00:02:56 ◼   ► It's been a long time, so it was great.

00:02:59 ◼   ► - If you would like to send in a Snowtalk question,

00:03:01 ◼   ► preferably with an open, it's like an open question,

00:03:04 ◼   ► not so much--

00:03:05 ◼   ► - Right, or suggestion for what tangents

00:03:07 ◼   ► we could go on during it, that would be great,

00:03:09 ◼   ► like in parentheses or something.

00:03:11 ◼   ► - Go to upgradefeedback.com and you can now select

00:03:14 ◼   ► Snowtalk question from the dropdown,

00:03:16 ◼   ► but you don't have to do that.

00:03:18 ◼   ► You can send in whatever you want

00:03:19 ◼   ► and I can decide where it will go,

00:03:21 ◼   ► but it is nice for me, 'cause on the back end now

00:03:24 ◼   ► I have a way of just selecting each little segment

00:03:27 ◼   ► and getting the things that I need.

00:03:28 ◼   ► Now Jason, I know you weren't here the last couple of weeks,

00:03:31 ◼   ► but I do have a little bit of follow up.

00:03:33 ◼   ► Some of it is directly related to our last episodes,

00:03:36 ◼   ► but actually most of it is related to things

00:03:39 ◼   ► from the pre-vacation time.

00:03:42 ◼   ► - Okay, great.

00:03:43 ◼   ► - So the most important one is a good correction

00:03:46 ◼   ► that comes from Shintan, who's wrote in to remind me,

00:03:49 ◼   ► 'cause we were talking about Tim Cook and charity,

00:03:52 ◼   ► and we were talking about,

00:03:54 ◼   ► me and Casey were wondering if Tim Cook had done

00:03:57 ◼   ► the billionaire pledge thing,

00:03:58 ◼   ► where like, I'm gonna give all my money away.

00:04:00 ◼   ► I know that actually has a different name than that,

00:04:02 ◼   ► but I can't remember what it is.

00:04:03 ◼   ► The Bill Gates thing, right?

00:04:04 ◼   ► Like that pledge that you give all your money away

00:04:07 ◼   ► when you die? - Yeah.

00:04:08 ◼   ► - Well, in 2015, Tim Cook pledged

00:04:12 ◼   ► that he would give his wealth to charity

00:04:15 ◼   ► after paying for the schooling of his relatives.

00:04:20 ◼   ► So like, I think it was his nephews.

00:04:22 ◼   ► He was gonna pay for their school,

00:04:24 ◼   ► which was interesting to me that like, just,

00:04:27 ◼   ► he said he will, so this comes from CNN Money.

00:04:31 ◼   ► Cook, who is close to becoming a billionaire, 2015,

00:04:35 ◼   ► says he will pay for his nephew's college education

00:04:39 ◼   ► then donate the rest of his wealth

00:04:40 ◼   ► to philanthropic projects, according to Fortune.

00:04:44 ◼   ► So I remember this, now I remember this, I haven't read it,

00:04:48 ◼   ► and I remember feeling now the same thing I felt then,

00:04:52 ◼   ► which was to be Tim Cook's nephew,

00:04:55 ◼   ► kind of great that he's paying for your college,

00:04:56 ◼   ► but you'd like maybe just like a little more,

00:05:00 ◼   ► you know, like come on Uncle Tim.

00:05:02 ◼   ► - Rich Uncle Tim.

00:05:03 ◼   ► - Can't you at least buy me a house?

00:05:05 ◼   ► You know what I mean?

00:05:06 ◼   ► But hey.

00:05:06 ◼   ► - Well, I mean, maybe he, that's maybe like also buy you

00:05:09 ◼   ► this house to live in, this mansion to live in

00:05:11 ◼   ► while you're going to school and then it's yours.

00:05:13 ◼   ► It's called the giving pledge, by the way,

00:05:14 ◼   ► although the billionaire pledge to give away all your money

00:05:17 ◼   ► is a great name.

00:05:18 ◼   ► I like that too.

00:05:19 ◼   ► - I might start that.

00:05:20 ◼   ► I'm gonna compete with Bill Gates

00:05:23 ◼   ► and set up the billionaire pledge

00:05:25 ◼   ► to give away all of your money.

00:05:27 ◼   ► But so there you go.

00:05:28 ◼   ► That's a good correction.

00:05:30 ◼   ► That's an important thing.

00:05:31 ◼   ► It's just interesting.

00:05:32 ◼   ► All the way back in 2015, I did not remember that at all.

00:05:35 ◼   ► That was nearly 10 years ago now.

00:05:37 ◼   ► - Yeah, I don't think it's surprising given his,

00:05:39 ◼   ► I mean, he is somebody who has very publicly discussed

00:05:42 ◼   ► lots of social issues. Like, I'm not surprised at all that he would, and of course he instated

00:05:47 ◼   ► the all of Apple's charity matching and stuff that Steve Jobs didn't do. And so I'm not

00:05:54 ◼   ► surprised at all that, to be reminded that Tim is already there. He's already going to

00:06:00 ◼   ► give it away. Except for the nephew stuff. Nephews, we're going to take care of you.

00:06:05 ◼   ► It's soccer time.

00:06:06 ◼   ► We're going to take care of you.

00:06:07 ◼   ► Jason Snow.

00:06:08 ◼   ► Soccer time!

00:06:09 ◼   ► In a major way.

00:06:11 ◼   ► in a major league American way.

00:06:12 ◼   ► It's been, for the rest of the world,

00:06:13 ◼   ► it's sort of been soccer time since the fall,

00:06:15 ◼   ► but for a major league soccer way,

00:06:19 ◼   ► it is soccer time.

00:06:22 ◼   ► The MLS season has begun.

00:06:23 ◼   ► I actually watched some of an Apple TV live MLS game

00:06:27 ◼   ► while we were doing our laundry in our hotel room

00:06:31 ◼   ► in Christchurch, New Zealand.

00:06:33 ◼   ► Yeah, mm-hmm.

00:06:34 ◼   ► Yeah, I tuned it in.

00:06:36 ◼   ► - The reason I know it's MLS time is because the TV app

00:06:41 ◼   ► really wants me to sign up.

00:06:44 ◼   ► - It does it though.

00:06:45 ◼   ► - Multiple times, what I'll say is,

00:06:47 ◼   ► I don't mind for Apple to bug me about this stuff once.

00:06:52 ◼   ► But I had it happen to me on at least two occasions

00:06:56 ◼   ► on my iPhone, right?

00:06:57 ◼   ► I open my iPhone, on multiple occasions,

00:07:00 ◼   ► it's like, "Would you like to sign up?"

00:07:01 ◼   ► - American soccer on your iPhone.

00:07:02 ◼   ► - And it's just like, you know, come on.

00:07:04 ◼   ► I don't mind you giving me one of these,

00:07:06 ◼   ► but let's not keep doing it.

00:07:07 ◼   ► But nevertheless, I poked around in the interface

00:07:10 ◼   ► that is inside the TV app,

00:07:12 ◼   ► kind of like hidden inside of the TV app,

00:07:14 ◼   ► 'cause it's really, they're treating it like a channel,

00:07:16 ◼   ► right, like one of the Apple TV channels,

00:07:19 ◼   ► like they call them, where you can subscribe

00:07:21 ◼   ► to like Showtime or things like that.

00:07:25 ◼   ► I don't know if that's one of them, but it probably is,

00:07:27 ◼   ► and you can pay for other services

00:07:32 ◼   ► and it be inside of the TV app.

00:07:33 ◼   ► And I thought it looked pretty interesting,

00:07:36 ◼   ► like they've laid everything out pretty well,

00:07:38 ◼   ► there's a good schedule in there,

00:07:39 ◼   ► there's like additional content that you can browse

00:07:42 ◼   ► kind of related to the games and teams.

00:07:45 ◼   ► So yeah, what was your experience

00:07:47 ◼   ► of watching one of these games?

00:07:48 ◼   ► Did it succeed in places where the Friday night baseball

00:07:53 ◼   ► failed like from a graphics perspective,

00:07:55 ◼   ► from a coverage perspective,

00:07:56 ◼   ► or what was your experience like?

00:07:59 ◼   ► - Well, I didn't watch enough, I think,

00:08:00 ◼   ► to make any judgments.

00:08:03 ◼   ► I've definitely, it seems fine.

00:08:04 ◼   ► I've heard from people who are American soccer fans

00:08:07 ◼   ► and MLS fans who said that it seems pretty good.

00:08:10 ◼   ► Given that all the reports suggest

00:08:13 ◼   ► that this all kind of came together last minute,

00:08:15 ◼   ► they had to build an entire production team

00:08:17 ◼   ► and set up like literally everything

00:08:19 ◼   ► for the entire league over the off season.

00:08:22 ◼   ► And so it sounds like it's a work in progress

00:08:24 ◼   ► and there are a whole bunch of parts of it that are missing.

00:08:26 ◼   ► I heard from somebody who said,

00:08:28 ◼   ► "I just want to watch the highlights

00:08:29 ◼   ► and all they'll let me do is watch,

00:08:30 ◼   ► or no, I just want to watch the replay,

00:08:33 ◼   ► a replay of the game

00:08:34 ◼   ► and all they'll let me do is watch highlights

00:08:36 ◼   ► and I want to watch the whole game."

00:08:37 ◼   ► And what I said back to that person is,

00:08:40 ◼   ► when they started doing baseball,

00:08:41 ◼   ► you couldn't pause it or back up.

00:08:44 ◼   ► And they fixed that eventually, right?

00:08:47 ◼   ► So I suspect that a lot of stuff is kind of being bolted

00:08:51 ◼   ► onto the side of this thing as it goes.

00:08:54 ◼   ► But it looked good and sounded good,

00:08:58 ◼   ► although the game that I watched had only

00:09:01 ◼   ► the local radio commentary as well as the main thing.

00:09:05 ◼   ► and I don't know whether there's a separate Spanish language,

00:09:10 ◼   ► like video to watch, where you see the announcers,

00:09:13 ◼   ► maybe that's the case.

00:09:14 ◼   ► I was under the assumption that it was gonna be like,

00:09:16 ◼   ► just in that you choose a game and then you could choose

00:09:18 ◼   ► if you want Spanish or English or whatever,

00:09:19 ◼   ► but maybe it's a little bit different.

00:09:21 ◼   ► Anyway, they look, you know,

00:09:24 ◼   ► I thought it looked pretty good and certainly respectable.

00:09:26 ◼   ► And in watching the coverage of it,

00:09:31 ◼   ► it sounds like everybody involved more or less

00:09:34 ◼   ► is relieved that this is a perfectly well-done, competent broadcast. There didn't seem to

00:09:40 ◼   ► be any big disasters, and it's a good start for this relationship. But I'm sure there's

00:09:46 ◼   ► way more to do that they just haven't gotten to yet.

00:09:51 ◼   ► So speaking of soccer, according to the New York Post, Apple has been rumored to be in

00:09:57 ◼   ► the running to acquire the streaming rights to Pac-12 college football. So actually that's

00:10:02 ◼   ► That's football, not soccer. So ignore what I said, but speaking of football.

00:10:06 ◼   ► This is football, football as a, as a Cal fan. Uh, this is my conference.

00:10:11 ◼   ► Oh, it is.

00:10:12 ◼   ► I bet. Yes, I've been watching this closely. Um, the primary rumor is ESPN and, uh, and

00:10:19 ◼   ► Amazon, but Apple is also in the mix for this. Um, this, this conference is interesting because

00:10:26 ◼   ► Most of the conferences are now sort of in contract.

00:10:30 ◼   ► And in fact, the Big 12 conference renewed their contract.

00:10:35 ◼   ► They were originally gonna go last

00:10:36 ◼   ► and they renewed their contract in advance.

00:10:39 ◼   ► So that leaves the Pac-12 out there.

00:10:40 ◼   ► And there's sort of speculation about

00:10:42 ◼   ► will the Pac-12 be able to match or beat the Big 12

00:10:44 ◼   ► in terms of the rights there.

00:10:47 ◼   ► They're smaller deals than the two huge conferences,

00:10:49 ◼   ► the Big 10 and the SEC.

00:10:51 ◼   ► Apple's involvement here, it's complicated,

00:10:55 ◼   ► But like Pac-12, what's interesting about it is that

00:10:58 ◼   ► they own their own network that's on cable

00:11:00 ◼   ► and also streaming with their own production facility.

00:11:05 ◼   ► And so part of this deal,

00:11:07 ◼   ► and one of the reasons why it might be complex is that

00:11:10 ◼   ► I would imagine that they may actually be selling

00:11:14 ◼   ► the networks and the production facilities

00:11:19 ◼   ► as a part of the deal.

00:11:21 ◼   ► It's not necessarily the case,

00:11:22 ◼   ► but if you were going to be producing

00:11:24 ◼   ► a lot of college sports.

00:11:26 ◼   ► Having your partner say, "Also, we built a machine

00:11:29 ◼   ► "that produces college sports, and would you like to buy it

00:11:31 ◼   ► "or buy half of it or something?"

00:11:35 ◼   ► That's an interesting proposition.

00:11:36 ◼   ► So Ben Thompson wrote about this last week on Stratechery

00:11:41 ◼   ► and a really good post about, and Julia and I talk about it

00:11:45 ◼   ► on downstream a lot in our Sports Corner part

00:11:48 ◼   ► of that podcast, what's going on with regional sports

00:11:50 ◼   ► networks in the US, these local kind of cable networks

00:11:54 ◼   ► that are machines to generate money for local sports teams.

00:11:57 ◼   ► And they're all falling apart because of cord cutting.

00:12:00 ◼   ► And so the money is dropping off.

00:12:02 ◼   ► So there's a lot of weird things happening,

00:12:06 ◼   ► but one of the important things is to be visible

00:12:09 ◼   ► to non diehard fans, right?

00:12:11 ◼   ► That's the reason that the MLS stuff that Apple is doing,

00:12:15 ◼   ► that some of it's available for free,

00:12:16 ◼   ► and some of it's gonna be actually broadcast

00:12:20 ◼   ► on linear TV simulcast.

00:12:22 ◼   ► That's to get people who are more casual viewers.

00:12:26 ◼   ► With the Pac-12, they could lock up Amazon or Apple,

00:12:31 ◼   ► possibly, for all of it.

00:12:32 ◼   ► It's much more likely that they have ESPN as a partner

00:12:37 ◼   ► because ESPN's gonna want to put some, you know,

00:12:40 ◼   ► Friday night college football games on ESPN proper,

00:12:44 ◼   ► and the Pac-12 is gonna want the exposure of being on ESPN

00:12:48 ◼   ► instead of off on a streaming service somewhere.

00:12:51 ◼   ► but that deal will be combined with a deal

00:12:54 ◼   ► for everything else that'll go to Amazon or Apple.

00:12:57 ◼   ► So it's possible.

00:12:58 ◼   ► Very much more people talking about it being Amazon

00:13:02 ◼   ► than Apple here,

00:13:03 ◼   ► but they're actually both West Coast companies.

00:13:06 ◼   ► And this is a West Coast sports league conference.

00:13:11 ◼   ► So, you know, whether it's Seattle or Cupertino

00:13:16 ◼   ► that wins the day here, you know, worth watching.

00:13:20 ◼   ► It's an interesting idea.

00:13:21 ◼   ► 'cause I don't think any of these conferences

00:13:23 ◼   ► has made a deal with a streaming service

00:13:27 ◼   ► as the primary partner before,

00:13:29 ◼   ► and it may happen with a Pac-12.

00:13:30 ◼   ► - I wonder if a sticking point for Apple

00:13:34 ◼   ► might be trying to lock up the international,

00:13:39 ◼   ► like we're just the place where you get it.

00:13:42 ◼   ► You know, like the way that they've done

00:13:44 ◼   ► with Major League Soccer, which I think is great,

00:13:46 ◼   ► where it's like it doesn't matter where you are in the world

00:13:48 ◼   ► if you wanna watch this sport,

00:13:50 ◼   ► you can just go to Apple and watch it.

00:13:52 ◼   ► And I wouldn't be surprised if that was one of the many

00:13:56 ◼   ► things that was the issue with the NFL Sunday tickets.

00:13:59 ◼   ► It was just never gonna be simple for people to watch it.

00:14:02 ◼   ► And so I would expect that Apple maybe to at least be

00:14:07 ◼   ► starting with things like Major League Soccer,

00:14:09 ◼   ► where they can have a bit more of a dictatorial relationship

00:14:13 ◼   ► of to where these things are gonna be shown

00:14:16 ◼   ► where they're not when it comes to the negotiations.

00:14:19 ◼   ► - And college sports is a good example of that,

00:14:21 ◼   ► where there's no big international market

00:14:23 ◼   ► for this college sports stuff.

00:14:26 ◼   ► They would probably get, I should say also,

00:14:28 ◼   ► I don't think this is the streaming rights

00:14:30 ◼   ► to Pac-12 college football.

00:14:31 ◼   ► I should say college football is the thing

00:14:33 ◼   ► that drives streaming rights.

00:14:35 ◼   ► And there's some really good writers on the web,

00:14:36 ◼   ► if you wanna talk about sports rights

00:14:39 ◼   ► and specifically what's been going on with the Pac-12.

00:14:41 ◼   ► A guy named John Cazano, who worked for the newspaper

00:14:45 ◼   ► in Portland for years, has a substack.

00:14:48 ◼   ► And there's a guy named John Willner,

00:14:49 ◼   ► who writes for the San Jose Mercury News,

00:14:50 ◼   ► who writes about this a lot.

00:14:52 ◼   ► The Pac-12 is not just college football,

00:14:54 ◼   ► even though that drives so much of the money.

00:14:56 ◼   ► It's also, there are a lot of college basketball games

00:14:58 ◼   ► there, and then there's all sorts of other college sports

00:15:02 ◼   ► like volleyball and baseball and softball,

00:15:05 ◼   ► and there's like the swim meets, and there's like,

00:15:08 ◼   ► there's soccer, there's a huge,

00:15:11 ◼   ► if you look at what's on the Pac-12 networks,

00:15:13 ◼   ► it's actually an enormous catalog of content.

00:15:15 ◼   ► And that, one of the things that's valuable

00:15:18 ◼   ► in sports streaming is having a library to say,

00:15:23 ◼   ► look at all the games we've got.

00:15:25 ◼   ► So it'll be interesting to see if that pops over

00:15:28 ◼   ► into Amazon or Apple.

00:15:29 ◼   ► Amazon is reportedly working on a sports app

00:15:32 ◼   ► for Prime Video.

00:15:34 ◼   ► And so they definitely seem to be feeling the kind of like,

00:15:36 ◼   ► we want to fill our sports app with a catalog.

00:15:40 ◼   ► Apple with its international focus,

00:15:42 ◼   ► like there's that rumor,

00:15:43 ◼   ► I haven't heard any updates about it

00:15:45 ◼   ► that they were bidding for the rights to the first league,

00:15:48 ◼   ► soccer league in the Netherlands.

00:15:51 ◼   ► But I could also see an Apple strategy

00:15:52 ◼   ► where they want to kind of progress

00:15:54 ◼   ► since soccer is such an international sport

00:15:55 ◼   ► that they want to keep kind of like buying out

00:15:59 ◼   ► different leagues around the world

00:16:02 ◼   ► and putting them inside Apple TV

00:16:05 ◼   ► so that instead of like just getting MLS,

00:16:07 ◼   ► you get the MLS and you get the first league

00:16:11 ◼   ► in the Netherlands and you get, right,

00:16:13 ◼   ► like and they could keep going there.

00:16:14 ◼   ► But it'll be interesting to see what deals Apple makes

00:16:19 ◼   ► and what they don't make.

00:16:21 ◼   ► And in some cases it's gonna be like Sunday Ticket,

00:16:24 ◼   ► I think, not just that they don't necessarily wanna pay,

00:16:26 ◼   ► but that it doesn't make sense for them.

00:16:27 ◼   ► It's not part of their strategy.

00:16:29 ◼   ► - Referencing streaming rights and all that kind of stuff,

00:16:32 ◼   ► I wanted to mention, 'cause I forgot to last week,

00:16:35 ◼   ► that as part of covering for Jason,

00:16:36 ◼   ► I also guest hosted an episode of "Downstream"

00:16:39 ◼   ► with Julia Alexander.

00:16:41 ◼   ► We talk about a bunch of nosy stuff,

00:16:43 ◼   ► like we talk about Marvel, Marvel fatigue,

00:16:45 ◼   ► and all that kind of fun stuff.

00:16:47 ◼   ► But also I got to quiz Julia

00:16:49 ◼   ► about why international streaming rights are so messy.

00:16:52 ◼   ► For example, why can't I get HBO Max?

00:16:55 ◼   ► So if you wanna go check that out,

00:16:56 ◼   ► it's episode 38 of Downstream.

00:16:58 ◼   ► Downstream is one of my favorite podcasts.

00:17:00 ◼   ► Jason and Julia do a fantastic job of it.

00:17:02 ◼   ► So I recommend people go check it out.

00:17:05 ◼   ► - Thank you for being in there.

00:17:06 ◼   ► I mean, we, you and I kind of hatched the idea for it,

00:17:09 ◼   ► but in the end, I had an opening for a new show

00:17:13 ◼   ► and you didn't, so I'm glad you finally got

00:17:15 ◼   ► to make a little, almost like a homecoming,

00:17:18 ◼   ► 'cause Downstream started with her guest episode

00:17:20 ◼   ► of Upgrade, essentially, so.

00:17:21 ◼   ► - It's fun to do that, but as I said to Julia,

00:17:24 ◼   ► I will happily be on the show or fill in any time,

00:17:26 ◼   ► 'cause I had an absolute blast, it was so good.

00:17:29 ◼   ► We had a great time.

00:17:30 ◼   ► - And we've been threatening that,

00:17:31 ◼   ► I think since episode one, I've been like,

00:17:33 ◼   ► Mike Hurley's gonna have to come on

00:17:34 ◼   ► and it just hasn't happened yet,

00:17:35 ◼   ► so I'm so glad that worked out.

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00:19:56 ◼   ► the continued support of this show and all of Relay FM. Saddle up, Jason Snow. Is room around up time?

00:20:03 ◼   ► Yee-ha. You mentioned in the past- whoa hang on the lasers have gotten out! I was- that was the

00:20:12 ◼   ► - That was like a laser yee-haw.

00:20:14 ◼   ► I was throwing, shooting them into the sky.

00:20:15 ◼   ► - However, actually, that isn't necessarily

00:20:18 ◼   ► the worst place to put lasers in the Rumor Roundup,

00:20:22 ◼   ► because you mentioned a while ago, how long will it be?

00:20:26 ◼   ► I don't know if we said this in the show

00:20:27 ◼   ► or me and you were talking about it,

00:20:28 ◼   ► but like, how long could it be

00:20:30 ◼   ► until we have our own Rumor in Rumor Roundup?

00:20:32 ◼   ► - Oh yeah.

00:20:34 ◼   ► - Well, an anonymous listener wrote in

00:20:36 ◼   ► at upgradefeedback.com.

00:20:37 ◼   ► - What?

00:20:38 ◼   ► - To say.

00:20:39 ◼   ► - Sorry, I wanted to do a spit take there.

00:20:41 ◼   ► - I could hear there was a near spit take there.

00:20:45 ◼   ► - Yeah.

00:20:45 ◼   ► - They wrote in to say that they are working

00:20:47 ◼   ► with Apple's financing team in Europe

00:20:50 ◼   ► and that the Apple card will be launching

00:20:52 ◼   ► in the UK and Germany in 2023.

00:20:56 ◼   ► - You heard it here first.

00:20:56 ◼   ► - You heard it here first.

00:20:58 ◼   ► I read this and was like, oh yeah,

00:21:01 ◼   ► I remember when I really wanted that.

00:21:03 ◼   ► Like it feels like it was so long ago.

00:21:05 ◼   ► Now I have a question for you

00:21:07 ◼   ► that I don't know if anybody can answer

00:21:08 ◼   ► but how it works in America.

00:21:10 ◼   ► Is it only individuals that can sign up for the Apple Card?

00:21:13 ◼   ► Can businesses sign up for Apple Card?

00:21:15 ◼   ► Or is it just individuals?

00:21:16 ◼   ► - I think it's just individuals.

00:21:17 ◼   ► I don't think businesses can sign up.

00:21:18 ◼   ► - Okay, that's interesting.

00:21:20 ◼   ► 'Cause basically, the way I'm thinking about it,

00:21:21 ◼   ► the reason I would want Apple Card

00:21:23 ◼   ► is for buying Apple products.

00:21:26 ◼   ► 'Cause you get a large cash back on it, right?

00:21:28 ◼   ► It's like the largest cash. - Absolutely.

00:21:30 ◼   ► - So I figure like, you know,

00:21:31 ◼   ► for the products that I buy every year,

00:21:33 ◼   ► it would be silly not to do that, right?

00:21:36 ◼   ► - Exactly.

00:21:37 ◼   ► - So I will look into this, but I am keen,

00:21:38 ◼   ► I think this has taken way longer than it should have, I think, for them to start rolling

00:21:43 ◼   ► the Apple Card out internationally.

00:21:46 ◼   ► So I really do hope that this is a thing that will actually be coming here and then spreading

00:21:52 ◼   ► further out.

00:21:53 ◼   ► This has got to be part of their overall finance plans.

00:21:57 ◼   ► They've got to get this before they can get anything else.

00:21:59 ◼   ► You can't just keep launching new things and never roll them out outside of America.

00:22:03 ◼   ► And the reason it surprises me is Apple Pay did not take very long for them to get that

00:22:07 ◼   ► one going. I've got to imagine there are so many financial institutions that are very

00:22:16 ◼   ► willing to work with Apple on this, who have the necessary licenses in the same way that

00:22:21 ◼   ► it's Goldman Sachs right in America underpin the Apple card. There's got to be companies

00:22:25 ◼   ► internationally that would be willing to do this. I'm surprised it's taken as long as

00:22:29 ◼   ► it has.

00:22:30 ◼   ► Moving on, according to Ming-Chi Kuo, Apple has restarted development on an iPhone SE4.

00:22:37 ◼   ► So it was just two months ago that Ming-Chi Kuo said that Apple had abandoned the project

00:22:42 ◼   ► after continued struggles with chip design and a kind of, I don't want to use the word

00:22:49 ◼   ► confusion but like an uncertainty maybe of what their iPhone sales across the product

00:22:55 ◼   ► line.

00:22:56 ◼   ► You know we've been talking about this a lot right like the midi didn't sell well and then

00:23:00 ◼   ► the plus didn't sell well and they weren't sure what they were doing.

00:23:03 ◼   ► It's one of the reasons they cancelled the project.

00:23:06 ◼   ► Well it's back on the table now apparently and this device would have a 6.1 inch OLED

00:23:11 ◼   ► display and an Apple designed 5G chip. The device would be expected to be similar to

00:23:18 ◼   ► the iPhone 14 in its size with thicker bezels. Ross Young corroborated these reports stating

00:23:25 ◼   ► that the display would come from Chinese manufacturer BoE.

00:23:30 ◼   ► So all of this together seems interesting to me because it would suggest I think two

00:23:34 ◼   ► two things, like one, maybe that the corner is turned

00:23:38 ◼   ► on Apple's own 5G modems, right?

00:23:40 ◼   ► Because if that was one of the reasons they stopped doing it

00:23:43 ◼   ► then unless they would have changed their mind on it,

00:23:46 ◼   ► then, you know, of course they changed their mind on it,

00:23:49 ◼   ► maybe now it's working again,

00:23:50 ◼   ► so they put the product back on the table.

00:23:53 ◼   ► This also seems like maybe a way to use

00:23:55 ◼   ► a different manufacturer, right?

00:23:56 ◼   ► So they're using Chinese manufacturer BOE

00:23:58 ◼   ► and you'd say, but Mike, this isn't the diversifying

00:24:02 ◼   ► from China that we've been talking about.

00:24:04 ◼   ► and

00:24:25 ◼   ► I am asking myself, if this is an iPhone 14 sized iPhone SE

00:24:30 ◼   ► with an OLED display,

00:24:33 ◼   ► I'm not really sure who this device is for anymore.

00:24:35 ◼   ► - Well, so two things.

00:24:39 ◼   ► One is the obvious sort of like,

00:24:41 ◼   ► it's a device to hold down the bottom of the line.

00:24:46 ◼   ► So it's cheap and they're making it,

00:24:50 ◼   ► you design it to be cheap, that's what's going on here.

00:24:53 ◼   ► So maybe that display is cheap,

00:24:56 ◼   ► cheaper than the displays they're using.

00:24:59 ◼   ► Not necessarily worse, but maybe worse, but cheap.

00:25:03 ◼   ► And let's not forget too,

00:25:06 ◼   ► we're not comparing this to the iPhone 14, right?

00:25:10 ◼   ► It'll be compared to the iPhone 15.

00:25:13 ◼   ► So we're probably on the precipice of some iPhone redesign.

00:25:20 ◼   ► So to have this be kind of like,

00:25:22 ◼   ► sort of like the old phone design,

00:25:25 ◼   ► but they're moving on to new designs,

00:25:28 ◼   ► I think that that is potentially part of this too.

00:25:30 ◼   ► Just the idea that this is,

00:25:33 ◼   ► it will essentially be the one that looks

00:25:35 ◼   ► kinda like the iPhone 12, 13, 14,

00:25:38 ◼   ► but isn't because it's cheaper.

00:25:41 ◼   ► But I think, like if the Dynamic Island

00:25:44 ◼   ► is coming to the iPhone 15, right?

00:25:46 ◼   ► - This wouldn't have that.

00:25:47 ◼   ► - This isn't gonna have that, right?

00:25:49 ◼   ► it's gonna have notch presumably or, you know.

00:25:52 ◼   ► - Probably a notch.

00:25:54 ◼   ► - And I would say it'll have a worse camera,

00:25:57 ◼   ► it'll have a notch, it'll have like,

00:25:59 ◼   ► again, it will be like going back in time,

00:26:02 ◼   ► even though right now we look at it and think,

00:26:03 ◼   ► isn't this an iPhone 14?

00:26:05 ◼   ► It's like, it actually maybe is kind of like an iPhone 14,

00:26:09 ◼   ► but cheaper and then they keep that one around forever.

00:26:13 ◼   ► That's my guess about what this would be.

00:26:16 ◼   ► and that it firmly places the iPhone SE

00:26:19 ◼   ► in the cheaper iPhone category

00:26:22 ◼   ► and not the alternate ergonomics and cheaper category

00:26:27 ◼   ► that it's sometimes been in.

00:26:30 ◼   ► - So the iPhone SE currently starts at $429.

00:26:34 ◼   ► This device won't start at $429 with these specs.

00:26:37 ◼   ► Like I just don't see it.

00:26:39 ◼   ► And so that's kind of like what I'm wondering

00:26:42 ◼   ► of like, it's not smaller anymore.

00:26:45 ◼   ► and it might be cheaper, but it's going to be more expensive, I would expect, than a

00:26:51 ◼   ► device that it probably replaces.

00:26:54 ◼   ► So it's just an interesting thing to do.

00:26:58 ◼   ► I'm not convinced that this, me personally, I'm not convinced that this product actually

00:27:06 ◼   ► fulfills the needs that the iPhone SE currently fulfills.

00:27:11 ◼   ► is just on paper, this is puzzling to me as a like for consumers. I'm not sure that it's

00:27:17 ◼   ► really going to do either of the things that the iPhone SE has historically done.

00:27:22 ◼   ► I think you're if you're Apple, you're looking at the iPhone, like there are people with

00:27:26 ◼   ► an apple who don't look at the iPhone as a product, they look at it as a collection of,

00:27:31 ◼   ► you know, circles or shapes overlaid on the phone buying market, right? Like they're marketers,

00:27:39 ◼   ► That's the whole idea.

00:27:40 ◼   ► And so something that, you know, you're like,

00:27:43 ◼   ► oh, are phone buyers demanding a new iPhone SE?

00:27:46 ◼   ► Almost certainly not, right?

00:27:48 ◼   ► But, and these people, by the way,

00:27:50 ◼   ► are the people who got it wrong

00:27:51 ◼   ► with the mini and the plus, apparently.

00:27:53 ◼   ► But they're trying.

00:27:55 ◼   ► We can see, we've been seeing over the years,

00:27:57 ◼   ► Apple is trying to figure out like the most optimal way

00:28:00 ◼   ► to carve up the phone buying market

00:28:03 ◼   ► so that they can maximize their profits.

00:28:04 ◼   ► And they already are the best in the world at this,

00:28:07 ◼   ► but they wanna stay nimble

00:28:09 ◼   ► and they also wanna always be optimizing.

00:28:12 ◼   ► So I look at this and say,

00:28:14 ◼   ► maybe what they're trying to do here is saying,

00:28:16 ◼   ► okay, next year we're gonna do the iPhone 15.

00:28:18 ◼   ► We're gonna keep the iPhone 14 around.

00:28:22 ◼   ► We're gonna move the iPhone 13 down

00:28:23 ◼   ► and we're gonna kick out the iPhone 12.

00:28:25 ◼   ► And somebody looks at that

00:28:26 ◼   ► and the costs of manufacturing all that and said,

00:28:29 ◼   ► maybe we should kick out the iPhone 12 and 13

00:28:32 ◼   ► and the old SE and replace them all with a new SE

00:28:35 ◼   ► so we can simplify.

00:28:36 ◼   ► there's some reason why we really wanna kick the 12

00:28:38 ◼   ► and the 13 out.

00:28:39 ◼   ► And the reason we haven't killed,

00:28:40 ◼   ► or the 13 and the 14 at that point,

00:28:43 ◼   ► that low, like the several years ago phone,

00:28:46 ◼   ► that's still for sale, right?

00:28:48 ◼   ► And it's for sale for cheapness, right?

00:28:50 ◼   ► So it's like, well, let's do this.

00:28:52 ◼   ► Let's pull that previous model

00:28:55 ◼   ► that's got some premium specs in it.

00:28:58 ◼   ► Maybe it's stuff that's still more expensive

00:29:00 ◼   ► than we would like.

00:29:00 ◼   ► And let's create a cheap version of it.

00:29:03 ◼   ► And so that would be one scenario,

00:29:06 ◼   ► is just to say, well, next year,

00:29:08 ◼   ► they're gonna sell the 15 Pro and the 15,

00:29:11 ◼   ► and maybe the 14 will still be for sale,

00:29:14 ◼   ► maybe not, but maybe.

00:29:15 ◼   ► And then we're gonna dump the 13,

00:29:18 ◼   ► though they will have already dumped the 12, right?

00:29:21 ◼   ► They will dump the 13 and the SE,

00:29:23 ◼   ► and we'll have a new SE,

00:29:24 ◼   ► and then that'll sit there for two or three years.

00:29:26 ◼   ► Like in the end, is that something that makes sense

00:29:28 ◼   ► as an iPhone buyer?

00:29:29 ◼   ► No, I think it makes sense if you're somebody

00:29:32 ◼   ► who's at Apple and sees all the numbers up on a board,

00:29:35 ◼   ► especially in other, you know,

00:29:37 ◼   ► in regions where people tend to buy the cheaper phones

00:29:42 ◼   ► and you're like, well, how do we crack India?

00:29:44 ◼   ► Or like, how do we do this?

00:29:46 ◼   ► And we, you know, maybe they're even reaching

00:29:49 ◼   ► a difficult situation where they're looking

00:29:51 ◼   ► at the expensive components they use

00:29:53 ◼   ► in some of these iPhones that they need to

00:29:55 ◼   ► in order to sell them to richer parts of the world.

00:29:58 ◼   ► And they're like, you know,

00:29:59 ◼   ► this is never gonna be cheap enough for us.

00:30:03 ◼   ► So let's make a new phone that is fundamentally cheaper.

00:30:08 ◼   ► And if it doesn't sell that well in US and Europe,

00:30:13 ◼   ► but it sells really well in India and Brazil

00:30:15 ◼   ► and a bunch of other places like that,

00:30:17 ◼   ► then like, great, we've solved it, right?

00:30:19 ◼   ► They're thinking big picture,

00:30:20 ◼   ► they're thinking about filling in

00:30:21 ◼   ► that grid of potential phone buyers.

00:30:25 ◼   ► And that's what this feels to me.

00:30:26 ◼   ► I mean, the SE in some ways has always felt like this to me,

00:30:29 ◼   ► but this report suggests that maybe they're willing to go

00:30:32 ◼   ► even further in terms of sort of like the SE being

00:30:36 ◼   ► purpose built to fill kind of like some gaps

00:30:40 ◼   ► and maybe free them from continuing to manufacture

00:30:43 ◼   ► some other products that they wanna pull off

00:30:44 ◼   ► the product list.

00:30:46 ◼   ► - I agree with you, like all that makes perfect sense,

00:30:48 ◼   ► especially the idea of this like Venn diagram, right?

00:30:51 ◼   ► That is being made.

00:30:53 ◼   ► But I'm just not convinced with the way this is described

00:30:58 ◼   ► that they can hit the price point

00:31:00 ◼   ► that I think this product needs,

00:31:02 ◼   ► but I'm very willing to be wrong.

00:31:03 ◼   ► - It does feel like a stretch, doesn't it?

00:31:04 ◼   ► - Yeah, it doesn't seem realistic.

00:31:06 ◼   ► I mean, it will be, right?

00:31:08 ◼   ► At some point, maybe it's when this product comes out,

00:31:10 ◼   ► but at some point it will be cost efficient

00:31:13 ◼   ► to have an OLED display, 6.1 inch OLED display,

00:31:16 ◼   ► and a device that costs less than $500 from Apple.

00:31:19 ◼   ► Of course, it is very possible

00:31:21 ◼   ► for many companies to do this,

00:31:23 ◼   ► but I'm talking about iPhones specifically.

00:31:25 ◼   ► - Right.

00:31:25 ◼   ► - If you wanna continue getting a 30 to 40% margin

00:31:28 ◼   ► on a product, right?

00:31:29 ◼   ► Like, I'm not, which is what Apple wants,

00:31:31 ◼   ► I'm not convinced that they can do that right now

00:31:33 ◼   ► with this bill of materials,

00:31:35 ◼   ► but at some point it will be realistic,

00:31:38 ◼   ► but I'm just not sure if next year, right,

00:31:41 ◼   ► or whenever would be that time.

00:31:43 ◼   ► - I think it's worth being skeptical.

00:31:44 ◼   ► I don't know enough about the dynamics

00:31:46 ◼   ► of things like the display market,

00:31:47 ◼   ► but when I see the display is gonna be made

00:31:49 ◼   ► from Chinese manufacturer BOE,

00:31:52 ◼   ► I don't know anything about them.

00:31:53 ◼   ► Maybe they're great and they're amazing,

00:31:56 ◼   ► but I also look at that and think,

00:31:58 ◼   ► maybe they make a display of acceptable quality

00:32:02 ◼   ► that is way cheaper than the displays Apple is putting

00:32:04 ◼   ► in its higher end iPhones.

00:32:06 ◼   ► - Whether they're good or not,

00:32:07 ◼   ► they're not choosing this company for the iPhone Pro,

00:32:09 ◼   ► are they?

00:32:10 ◼   ► So they're obviously, Apple doesn't consider them

00:32:12 ◼   ► of the highest quality available.

00:32:14 ◼   ► - Or even the iPhone, right?

00:32:16 ◼   ► This is just for the iPhone SE.

00:32:18 ◼   ► So that's what I wonder is if they have, you know,

00:32:22 ◼   ► identified a whole bunch of expensive components.

00:32:25 ◼   ► And also let's not forget the Apple design 5G chip.

00:32:27 ◼   ► that this is a way for them to like,

00:32:30 ◼   ► first off, they're gonna test it.

00:32:31 ◼   ► This is something that we've been talking about

00:32:32 ◼   ► for a while now.

00:32:33 ◼   ► Test in a product that doesn't have a lot of volume

00:32:35 ◼   ► rather than in the crown jewels and see how it goes

00:32:39 ◼   ► and see what the issues are.

00:32:40 ◼   ► But across the board, there may be other component things

00:32:43 ◼   ► going on in here that are like, you know,

00:32:46 ◼   ► it's a cheaper component and that's just how it is

00:32:48 ◼   ► in order to make this product.

00:32:50 ◼   ► But yes, the dance between Apple wanting

00:32:53 ◼   ► to make a cheaper product,

00:32:54 ◼   ► wanting to maximize their profit margin

00:32:57 ◼   ► and also kind of keep their promise

00:32:59 ◼   ► of not making a bad product.

00:33:01 ◼   ► That's why those people get paid a lot of money, right?

00:33:05 ◼   ► 'Cause that's what they're trying to do

00:33:06 ◼   ► is like we want a premium product

00:33:08 ◼   ► that people are gonna buy and be like,

00:33:09 ◼   ► "Yeah, that's why I bought the app product."

00:33:11 ◼   ► But we also wanna make it not too expensive

00:33:13 ◼   ► because we're gonna have to add our margin in.

00:33:16 ◼   ► And if we make this product for this target market,

00:33:18 ◼   ► but it misses the market by a hundred or $200, we failed.

00:33:22 ◼   ► Even if the product's good, we failed.

00:33:24 ◼   ► And if we make it cheaper, but the product's not good,

00:33:27 ◼   ► we failed, you've got to get them all

00:33:29 ◼   ► in that little triangle.

00:33:31 ◼   ► So that's tricky.

00:33:34 ◼   ► - Oh, Jason, I have some important real-time follow-up.

00:33:37 ◼   ► Ming-Chi Kuo in January talking about BOE.

00:33:40 ◼   ► - Yeah.

00:33:41 ◼   ► - Writing his Medium blog,

00:33:42 ◼   ► Apple analyst Ming-Chi Kuo, this comes from Macrum,

00:33:44 ◼   ► it says BOE has beaten Samsung for orders

00:33:47 ◼   ► for the upcoming iPhone 15 and iPhone 15 Plus.

00:33:50 ◼   ► - Oh, interesting. - And that by 2024,

00:33:52 ◼   ► BoE will start mass shipments of high-end OTPO displays

00:33:55 ◼   ► for the iPhone, making it the largest display supplier.

00:33:59 ◼   ► BoE has had unsuccessful attempts in the past

00:34:02 ◼   ► to become a more prominent player in Apple's supply chain

00:34:05 ◼   ► after reportedly failing product validation tests.

00:34:09 ◼   ► So let's take that back.

00:34:10 ◼   ► - I take back everything I said about BoE,

00:34:13 ◼   ► except for the fact that if they've got a larger deal

00:34:16 ◼   ► with Apple, it may be that this is the, you know,

00:34:18 ◼   ► These are the screens that don't meet up,

00:34:22 ◼   ► match up with the needs of the high-end displays,

00:34:24 ◼   ► but still.

00:34:25 ◼   ► - It still could fulfill the same thing we're talking about,

00:34:28 ◼   ► is that BOE may be able to produce a cheaper screen

00:34:30 ◼   ► of acceptable quality than Samsung or LG.

00:34:33 ◼   ► - Exactly. - Like at the lowest level,

00:34:35 ◼   ► that is divorced from the fact of whether a BOE

00:34:38 ◼   ► is actually going to be producing these displays

00:34:41 ◼   ► for the upcoming iPhone 15s.

00:34:44 ◼   ► - Right, or another way to view it is the BOE's

00:34:46 ◼   ► larger deal with Apple may also suggest that

00:34:50 ◼   ► unlike Samsung or LG,

00:34:53 ◼   ► BOE is willing to cut Apple a deal on certain displays

00:34:57 ◼   ► as part of a larger deal,

00:34:59 ◼   ► which allows Apple to get to this price point

00:35:01 ◼   ► for this display in this phone.

00:35:04 ◼   ► But we could file all of this under,

00:35:06 ◼   ► it's our same discussions about the mini and about the plus.

00:35:09 ◼   ► The SE is in there too,

00:35:10 ◼   ► which is there's like the hero iPhones.

00:35:14 ◼   ► And now we've got sort of the bifurcated hero iPhones.

00:35:16 ◼   ► So you've got the 14 and the 14 Pro,

00:35:18 ◼   ► and there may be an Ultra at some point

00:35:21 ◼   ► or something like that.

00:35:22 ◼   ► But you've also got Apple kind of like tinkering

00:35:24 ◼   ► around the margins elsewhere in the iPhone line.

00:35:29 ◼   ► This is all part of the same thing, which is like,

00:35:30 ◼   ► it's fascinating.

00:35:31 ◼   ► Remember when they only did one iPhone?

00:35:32 ◼   ► This is Apple really trying to maximize their profit

00:35:37 ◼   ► across the whole market.

00:35:40 ◼   ► And how do they do that?

00:35:41 ◼   ► It's, this is the product development side

00:35:45 ◼   ► of the same thing.

00:35:46 ◼   ► Remember, we talked a few years ago

00:35:47 ◼   ► about how there was that holiday season

00:35:50 ◼   ► where all of a sudden Apple was like,

00:35:52 ◼   ► "Hey, Angela Ahrens, it's great

00:35:55 ◼   ► that you're creating a community in Apple stores,

00:35:56 ◼   ► but we need to move products, right?

00:35:59 ◼   ► Like, we actually need to sell the iPhone now."

00:36:02 ◼   ► Well, this is the other part of that,

00:36:04 ◼   ► which is instead of just sort of putting out

00:36:05 ◼   ► a couple of iPhones and saying like,

00:36:07 ◼   ► "It's cool, they sell a lot, it's great."

00:36:09 ◼   ► They're like aggressively exploring different corners

00:36:13 ◼   ► of the market and trying to figure out the magic formula

00:36:16 ◼   ► that will give them as many customers

00:36:20 ◼   ► and as much profit as possible.

00:36:22 ◼   ► And the SE is just one tool for them to do that.

00:36:26 ◼   ► - Over the last couple of episodes,

00:36:29 ◼   ► I've been talking with my illustrious guests

00:36:31 ◼   ► about details from CAD models

00:36:33 ◼   ► that 9to5Mac have been publishing.

00:36:35 ◼   ► This week, we're gonna look at changes to the mute button

00:36:38 ◼   ► on the iPhone 15 Pro.

00:36:40 ◼   ► So 9to5Mac have heard from a source

00:36:42 ◼   ► that the next iPhone will move away

00:36:44 ◼   ► from the physical mute switch,

00:36:46 ◼   ► similarly to how they are moving to haptic buttons

00:36:49 ◼   ► for the volume and the wake button.

00:36:52 ◼   ► They have called it a quote pressing type button,

00:36:56 ◼   ► which is an incredibly weird way of saying things.

00:36:59 ◼   ► I feel like I know why they published this.

00:37:01 ◼   ► Somebody told them, or it was translated to,

00:37:05 ◼   ► this is a pressing type button.

00:37:07 ◼   ► and so they've just published what they were told?

00:37:09 ◼   ► - Well, my guess is it's a toggle button, right?

00:37:13 ◼   ► Where it's a, you know, let's say round button,

00:37:16 ◼   ► and you push it like a caps lock key or something like,

00:37:19 ◼   ► you push it in and it stays in,

00:37:21 ◼   ► and then you push it and it pops back out.

00:37:23 ◼   ► - Oh no, I don't think this is it.

00:37:24 ◼   ► I think this is--

00:37:25 ◼   ► - You think it's just a straight up toggle?

00:37:27 ◼   ► Well, if they do that, they could do it with fake,

00:37:29 ◼   ► they could fake it with haptics,

00:37:30 ◼   ► but then they just, they have to have it be like

00:37:32 ◼   ► a heavy haptic when you press it the first time

00:37:33 ◼   ► and a light haptic when you don't or whatever.

00:37:36 ◼   ► - That's exactly what I think they're gonna do

00:37:37 ◼   ► or hope they're gonna do.

00:37:38 ◼   ► - But they'll be modeling a toggle switch, right?

00:37:42 ◼   ► Modeling the idea that you press it, right?

00:37:45 ◼   ► A switch that you would press in and it would stay in

00:37:46 ◼   ► and you press it out and it pops back out.

00:37:49 ◼   ► And maybe that's not a moving part.

00:37:50 ◼   ► The other thing is that only the button is the moving part

00:37:53 ◼   ► in that scenario, I think.

00:37:54 ◼   ► So they could do it, but whether it's a virtual,

00:37:57 ◼   ► like a fake version of it or the real version of it,

00:37:59 ◼   ► it's just very different because with the current ring

00:38:02 ◼   ► silent that has been there since the very beginning,

00:38:05 ◼   ► The whole idea there is that it's a lot harder

00:38:06 ◼   ► to accidentally, you know, flip that switch.

00:38:10 ◼   ► And it's a lot easier if it's in your pocket

00:38:12 ◼   ► for you to press down on something

00:38:14 ◼   ► when you're trying to mash the volume button

00:38:15 ◼   ► and instead you mash the mute button, which is not great.

00:38:17 ◼   ► - You can also physically feel that it's muted, right?

00:38:20 ◼   ► Like it's not complicated.

00:38:22 ◼   ► Like you kind of can just,

00:38:24 ◼   ► I can put my hand in my pocket

00:38:25 ◼   ► and know that my phone is muted

00:38:26 ◼   ► without needing to change anything.

00:38:28 ◼   ► My hope here is they do what you said,

00:38:31 ◼   ► that it will be a,

00:38:32 ◼   ► They will have like different haptic feedback

00:38:35 ◼   ► for mute and unmute.

00:38:36 ◼   ► So maybe like you press it once to unmute it,

00:38:38 ◼   ► or like you press it and like hits you once or

00:38:40 ◼   ► like vibrates once.

00:38:42 ◼   ► And I don't know how they're going to do it, but

00:38:43 ◼   ► I just, I feel like they have to come up with

00:38:45 ◼   ► something that it can be done without needing to

00:38:48 ◼   ► look at the phone.

00:38:49 ◼   ► Like that's what I want because everybody's been

00:38:51 ◼   ► used to and people will be mad, including me.

00:38:53 ◼   ► Right.

00:38:54 ◼   ► Uh, but I, I don't think this will be a, a, a

00:38:57 ◼   ► moving thing at all.

00:39:00 ◼   ► - You think they're going to all virtual,

00:39:02 ◼   ► all touch-based controls, pressure-sensitive controls?

00:39:05 ◼   ► - Every, all of the other things I've been talking about

00:39:08 ◼   ► how everything is gonna be solid state buttons,

00:39:10 ◼   ► and I'm, if they're gonna change the mute switch,

00:39:14 ◼   ► like then, and every other button's

00:39:16 ◼   ► going to a solid state button,

00:39:17 ◼   ► then I feel like this is going to be the same.

00:39:20 ◼   ► Like I know that right now,

00:39:21 ◼   ► as they're pointing out to the chat, right?

00:39:23 ◼   ► Like if you flick the switch, it gives you a vibration.

00:39:26 ◼   ► I know that, right?

00:39:27 ◼   ► but that doesn't tell me if I'm muting or unmuting.

00:39:30 ◼   ► The physical movement of the switch does that.

00:39:32 ◼   ► So like, if it just buzzes at me the same time

00:39:35 ◼   ► for muting and unmuting, then I'm getting nothing, right?

00:39:38 ◼   ► Like I need something to tell me,

00:39:40 ◼   ► well, I press it once to mute.

00:39:41 ◼   ► - Maybe she's making a loud noise.

00:39:43 ◼   ► (laughing)

00:39:44 ◼   ► - You know what?

00:39:44 ◼   ► That would do it, wouldn't it?

00:39:46 ◼   ► - You are muted.

00:39:48 ◼   ► - Yes, thank you.

00:39:49 ◼   ► I was watching a TV show the other day

00:39:52 ◼   ► and it was a, it's a Star Trek show

00:39:54 ◼   ► and somebody's firing like a big laser gun

00:39:57 ◼   ► and in a firefight with these monsters

00:39:59 ◼   ► that are trying to kill her

00:40:00 ◼   ► and it runs out of lasers or whatever.

00:40:03 ◼   ► And the gun says, "Ding, out of ammunition."

00:40:08 ◼   ► And I thought, you know what?

00:40:09 ◼   ► You don't want your enemy to be told

00:40:11 ◼   ► you're out of ammunition.

00:40:13 ◼   ► Who programmed that in there?

00:40:15 ◼   ► What are they doing?

00:40:17 ◼   ► I wanted to mention something

00:40:18 ◼   ► about the physical button thing.

00:40:20 ◼   ► 'Cause I know that people are like,

00:40:22 ◼   ► some people like it, some people don't like it.

00:40:24 ◼   ► They can't just be based on touch.

00:40:27 ◼   ► They have to be based on pressure

00:40:28 ◼   ► because you put them in other things

00:40:31 ◼   ► and like, or in your pocket or whatever.

00:40:33 ◼   ► So they have to be pressure sensitive.

00:40:35 ◼   ► They can't be touch sensitive.

00:40:36 ◼   ► They also can't be touch sensitive

00:40:37 ◼   ► because you can touch a button,

00:40:38 ◼   ► touching a button isn't pushing a button, right?

00:40:40 ◼   ► We learned that with that iPod that was terrible,

00:40:42 ◼   ► that had the four buttons across the front

00:40:45 ◼   ► that were touch sensitive.

00:40:46 ◼   ► And if you tried to use it by feel,

00:40:48 ◼   ► you just touch the buttons

00:40:49 ◼   ► and they do things that you didn't, it's awful, right?

00:40:52 ◼   ► But I wanted to say just as a little anecdote point here,

00:40:56 ◼   ► I've been using the iPhone 14 Pro.

00:40:58 ◼   ► I took it with me on my trip

00:41:00 ◼   ► because it's got the great camera.

00:41:01 ◼   ► But the primary reason is because of the dynamic island,

00:41:04 ◼   ► because my beloved Mini doesn't have that.

00:41:06 ◼   ► So I wanna use the dynamic island.

00:41:08 ◼   ► So I've been using this Apple loaned iPhone

00:41:12 ◼   ► and a funny thing has happened,

00:41:15 ◼   ► which is I have had multiple stuck buttons.

00:41:19 ◼   ► - My buttons stuck?

00:41:21 ◼   ► - Yeah, where one of the volume buttons

00:41:22 ◼   ► has got something under it and you can sort of squeeze it

00:41:25 ◼   ► and it kind of works. - My sleep/wake button's

00:41:26 ◼   ► gone weird in the last couple of weeks.

00:41:28 ◼   ► It's gotten smushy in a not good way.

00:41:30 ◼   ► - Yeah, yeah, and there's not, I mean,

00:41:33 ◼   ► I think there's just some grit or something in there,

00:41:35 ◼   ► but it, so now I've got one that goes up and down,

00:41:38 ◼   ► the volume down, I think, and the volume up

00:41:39 ◼   ► is like the super smushy, not very good.

00:41:43 ◼   ► And I had that moment where I thought,

00:41:46 ◼   ► oh, well, this is why they're,

00:41:48 ◼   ► this is why they're building these new buttons,

00:41:49 ◼   ► is 'cause this kind of stuff is happening

00:41:51 ◼   ► and it's not any good.

00:41:52 ◼   ► - This is planned obsolescence, Jason.

00:41:55 ◼   ► I've never had this problem before,

00:41:56 ◼   ► but now they're getting rid of it from the iPhone 15 Pro.

00:41:59 ◼   ► So on the iPhone 14 Pro,

00:42:00 ◼   ► they included a piece of grit under every button, you know?

00:42:03 ◼   ► So we're gonna be looking forward

00:42:04 ◼   ► to when they take them away.

00:42:06 ◼   ► That's how they get you.

00:42:08 ◼   ► - Yeah, I guess.

00:42:08 ◼   ► I mean, do we applaud them?

00:42:10 ◼   ► Do we applaud them for like, you know,

00:42:14 ◼   ► yes, I know you shot the president yesterday,

00:42:15 ◼   ► but today you didn't shoot the president, so good job.

00:42:18 ◼   ► Right, like well done.

00:42:19 ◼   ► It's like, I mean, iPhone buttons should not do this.

00:42:23 ◼   ► There's actually a button on my iPad

00:42:25 ◼   ► is a little like that too.

00:42:26 ◼   ► It's a little squishy.

00:42:27 ◼   ► And I don't know, it's not like I'm rolling around in sand

00:42:30 ◼   ► with my iPad or my iPhone.

00:42:32 ◼   ► It's not like I'm like, whee, here I am in a big,

00:42:36 ◼   ► like fine powder or whatever, or dirt.

00:42:40 ◼   ► And yet something got in there and it's not great.

00:42:44 ◼   ► - So yeah, I wouldn't mind.

00:42:45 ◼   ► So like for the buttons, I wouldn't mind,

00:42:47 ◼   ► especially if like you're right.

00:42:49 ◼   ► If they require a finger as well as the pressure, that will also be good because it will be

00:42:54 ◼   ► less likely that the volume will get changed when my phone is in my pocket, which does

00:42:58 ◼   ► happen sometimes when I'm listening to a podcast and the volume goes up, so that might

00:43:01 ◼   ► be nice for that.

00:43:06 ◼   ► Considering how long they kept the physical switch, I feel confident they will do something

00:43:11 ◼   ► that if they change the switch to a solid state button kind of thing, they will do some

00:43:16 ◼   ► kind of affordance for letting you know if it's muted or unmuted without shouting the

00:43:21 ◼   ► phone is unmuted.

00:43:24 ◼   ► Although if they did have that as an option, I feel like I would have to enable that just

00:43:29 ◼   ► for fun.

00:43:30 ◼   ► And Jason, why are we just talking about the iPhone 15 when we could also be talking about

00:43:34 ◼   ► the iPhone 16?

00:43:35 ◼   ► That's great, let's do all the iPhones.

00:43:37 ◼   ► Let's start making news about if you know anything about the iPhone 17 upgradefeedback.com.

00:43:43 ◼   ► Please let us know.

00:43:44 ◼   ► - New reports from the Elec are suggesting

00:43:46 ◼   ► that the 2024 iPhone will have an under display

00:43:50 ◼   ► face ID sensor with an under display selfie camera

00:43:55 ◼   ► to come in 2026, which would be what the iPhone 18?

00:43:59 ◼   ► So here was my question to you.

00:44:00 ◼   ► - Yeah, there we go.

00:44:01 ◼   ► iPhone 18 rumor, here it is.

00:44:03 ◼   ► - We skipped, so you haven't got the 17 though.

00:44:05 ◼   ► We're still hoping for 17 rumors.

00:44:06 ◼   ► - No, we're looking for that.

00:44:07 ◼   ► - Upgrade for you back to the phone.

00:44:09 ◼   ► So my question to you as I'm reading this,

00:44:11 ◼   ► I mean, this does seem natural, right?

00:44:12 ◼   ► like get rid of all of the cutouts, right?

00:44:15 ◼   ► Like that's the obvious thing to do in the future,

00:44:17 ◼   ► all screen. - 100%.

00:44:19 ◼   ► - But if they do that, does the Dynamic Island go away

00:44:23 ◼   ► or does it like change it?

00:44:25 ◼   ► What do you think that, let's imagine the situation

00:44:27 ◼   ► where they get rid of the Face ID thing, right?

00:44:29 ◼   ► So it's just in like next year, yeah,

00:44:33 ◼   ► and then the next year.

00:44:34 ◼   ► So we just have the selfie camera cut out.

00:44:36 ◼   ► What do you think that Dynamic Island looks like then?

00:44:39 ◼   ► - One of two things.

00:44:40 ◼   ► I think the most likely scenario

00:44:41 ◼   ► as the dynamic island will continue

00:44:43 ◼   ► because it's a very interesting way to show

00:44:45 ◼   ► all the things we talked about,

00:44:46 ◼   ► show status of things that are happening on your device

00:44:49 ◼   ► that are not the thing that is in the foreground right now.

00:44:52 ◼   ► And that the Mac has had that forever, right?

00:44:55 ◼   ► But like, how do you do that on, especially an iPhone?

00:44:57 ◼   ► I would argue maybe the iPad could use that too,

00:45:00 ◼   ► but like, especially on an iPhone,

00:45:01 ◼   ► having a floating status window,

00:45:04 ◼   ► it's like the equivalent of menu bar items, I guess,

00:45:08 ◼   ► or the dock or like a bunch of different things

00:45:09 ◼   ► that the Mac does for that.

00:45:11 ◼   ► I like it, I think it's a good idea.

00:45:13 ◼   ► Every time I take a trip, like I just did,

00:45:16 ◼   ► like having flighty information in the dynamic island

00:45:19 ◼   ► while I'm sitting there before my flight

00:45:21 ◼   ► and it's ticking down when, you know,

00:45:22 ◼   ► and it tells me where to go and all those things,

00:45:24 ◼   ► it's like, it's great, I love it.

00:45:26 ◼   ► So if Apple feels that the dynamic island is successful

00:45:29 ◼   ► and is an asset to the iPhone and to iOS,

00:45:33 ◼   ► then they'll just keep having it.

00:45:35 ◼   ► And it'll just be something that disappears entirely

00:45:38 ◼   ► when you're not using it.

00:45:39 ◼   ► and if you swipe it away, it goes away.

00:45:42 ◼   ► It just won't be hiding, masking a little circle.

00:45:47 ◼   ► It'll just, I think, go away and then reappear,

00:45:49 ◼   ► and that'll be what it is.

00:45:52 ◼   ► The alternative is the touch bar scenario,

00:45:54 ◼   ► a dark timeline, the touch bar scenario,

00:45:58 ◼   ► which is that we get to this point and Apple's like,

00:46:00 ◼   ► you know, we don't really like the dynamic island

00:46:03 ◼   ► and it'll just die.

00:46:04 ◼   ► But I think if they like it, they'll keep it.

00:46:06 ◼   ► - Surely that would have meant

00:46:07 ◼   ► they would have already had to have made that decision.

00:46:09 ◼   ► - No, I guess if it's just software,

00:46:11 ◼   ► they wouldn't have to, would they?

00:46:12 ◼   ► - No, no, I think it would be,

00:46:13 ◼   ► if the Dynamic Island is a loser,

00:46:15 ◼   ► they'll keep it on the ones with the punch outs,

00:46:18 ◼   ► and it'll never be anywhere else,

00:46:20 ◼   ► and then we'll never speak of the Dynamic Island ever again.

00:46:23 ◼   ► But my inclination right now is,

00:46:27 ◼   ► I feel fairly positive about the Dynamic Island.

00:46:29 ◼   ► It's not super revolutionary,

00:46:31 ◼   ► but it is a really nice addition to iOS

00:46:33 ◼   ► that I would keep it around.

00:46:37 ◼   ► Again, I don't want a little black pill on my screen

00:46:39 ◼   ► when nothing's going on.

00:46:41 ◼   ► I mean, that's what it does now.

00:46:42 ◼   ► And it's just like, we all know why it's doing that,

00:46:45 ◼   ► but it could just disappear entirely.

00:46:47 ◼   ► I mean, it's got all those animations, right?

00:46:49 ◼   ► There's nothing stopping it from kind of bloop

00:46:51 ◼   ► coming down from the top of the screen and enabling.

00:46:54 ◼   ► And like, I think it's really nice and clever

00:46:56 ◼   ► and subtle and fun.

00:46:58 ◼   ► And so I hope it sticks around,

00:47:00 ◼   ► but I think those are the two scenarios is, you know,

00:47:02 ◼   ► they'll keep it around because it's good.

00:47:05 ◼   ► It was invented because of the hole punch thing,

00:47:07 ◼   ► but that doesn't mean that

00:47:09 ◼   ► If they think it's good, they'll just keep it.

00:47:10 ◼   ► And I think it's good.

00:47:11 ◼   ► - In the scenario where it would not be a big cut out

00:47:16 ◼   ► anymore, but it would just appear and go away.

00:47:18 ◼   ► I would like to coin the term dynamic submarine

00:47:20 ◼   ► because it would just like disappear

00:47:23 ◼   ► and then come back out again, you know?

00:47:25 ◼   ► Like it submerges and re-emerges.

00:47:27 ◼   ► Dynamic submarine, you heard it here first.

00:47:30 ◼   ► - But that could be, well, okay,

00:47:31 ◼   ► two pieces of feedback for this idea.

00:47:33 ◼   ► We're just brainstorming here.

00:47:34 ◼   ► One is the dynamic island,

00:47:38 ◼   ► what makes a dynamic could be indeed

00:47:40 ◼   ► that it appears and disappears.

00:47:41 ◼   ► So that would be, it would be,

00:47:43 ◼   ► still be a dynamic island.

00:47:45 ◼   ► And second, most submarines are dynamic.

00:47:48 ◼   ► - Yeah, and this would just be another one.

00:47:50 ◼   ► I just, you know, island, I don't know,

00:47:52 ◼   ► like an island going under water and coming back up again?

00:47:54 ◼   ► - Sure. - That's not so great.

00:47:55 ◼   ► - Like the tides, or have you ever seen Lost?

00:47:57 ◼   ► It's like that.

00:47:58 ◼   ► - Okay, so like what we're saying then is that--

00:48:00 ◼   ► - It's a magical island.

00:48:02 ◼   ► - The, well, the screen is dynamic

00:48:05 ◼   ► because it's covering the island in water,

00:48:07 ◼   ► and the water is the pixels or the photos of your family.

00:48:11 ◼   ► - Yeah, and there's a submarine down there.

00:48:14 ◼   ► - Makes perfect sense to me.

00:48:15 ◼   ► - Sure, it's good to be back.

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00:50:49 ◼   ► Mark Gurman is reporting that the next iMac is in a "advanced stage of development called

00:50:58 ◼   ► engineering validation testing" as everybody knows it. Mark is saying that this will have

00:51:06 ◼   ► the same 24 inch screen, it will come in the same colours, it will likely ship in the second

00:51:12 ◼   ► half of this year at the earliest and will most likely feature an M3 chip.

00:51:20 ◼   ► We got a question from Justin who wrote in to say "What do you want from the next 24

00:51:25 ◼   ► inch iMac in addition to an updated M chip?"

00:51:28 ◼   ► Well first off it's great that Mark Gurman's got some detail about the iMac because it's

00:51:33 ◼   ► been out there as a mystery for a while now and what he's been saying all along is that

00:51:38 ◼   ► they're basically holding it for M3

00:51:39 ◼   ► and we're not gonna get an M2 iMac.

00:51:42 ◼   ► What's interesting is this report

00:51:47 ◼   ► is also Mark's report basically saying the M3 is coming.

00:51:50 ◼   ► Which is funny, right?

00:51:54 ◼   ► 'Cause didn't the M2 just arrive with the last WWDC,

00:51:59 ◼   ► with the MacBook Air and the MacBook Pro?

00:52:01 ◼   ► But here it is again.

00:52:02 ◼   ► But I think, and he said, in his report,

00:52:05 ◼   ► he said something about how Apple wants

00:52:07 ◼   ► to get the M series on an annual cycle.

00:52:09 ◼   ► I'm not sure I entirely believe that.

00:52:12 ◼   ► Maybe he's got some information

00:52:14 ◼   ► that that's their ultimate goal,

00:52:15 ◼   ► that they want to march it in lockstep with the iPhone.

00:52:18 ◼   ► But it certainly feels,

00:52:19 ◼   ► and we've been talking for a while now,

00:52:20 ◼   ► that the M2 was sort of a half step of like,

00:52:23 ◼   ► refresh the chip, but it doesn't have all the stuff.

00:52:26 ◼   ► And that the M3 will be maybe a more substantial leap

00:52:30 ◼   ► that it may be based on a later generation of the A cores

00:52:36 ◼   ► instead of like the existing generation, maybe not.

00:52:39 ◼   ► If it's in June, we'll see, but like they could,

00:52:42 ◼   ► there's nothing stopping them from unveiling those cores

00:52:44 ◼   ► before the iPhone.

00:52:45 ◼   ► I know people are like, but it's always been the iPhone.

00:52:47 ◼   ► It's like, well, yeah, except for that one year

00:52:50 ◼   ► where it was the iPad, but it's true,

00:52:52 ◼   ► but they could, they, you know, the Mac matters too.

00:52:55 ◼   ► They could unveil those cores in an M3

00:52:58 ◼   ► and people are not gonna scream when the iPhone comes out

00:53:01 ◼   ► because the iPhone doesn't use the M3,

00:53:03 ◼   ► it uses an A chip and it's fine.

00:53:05 ◼   ► Like we can split this,

00:53:08 ◼   ► we can split these hairs way too fine

00:53:10 ◼   ► and we don't necessarily need to.

00:53:11 ◼   ► But the idea of M3 being here, really interesting.

00:53:15 ◼   ► There's another report from Mark

00:53:16 ◼   ► that we'll get to in a minute

00:53:17 ◼   ► that I think makes a lot of sense too.

00:53:20 ◼   ► I feel like the iMac, they just made it.

00:53:22 ◼   ► And so I would not be surprised if this iMac,

00:53:24 ◼   ► when I was reading like same colors, same 24 inch,

00:53:28 ◼   ► I'm like, yeah, I think it's just gonna be the iMac

00:53:30 ◼   ► with an M3 in it.

00:53:32 ◼   ► And maybe they'll do some other tweaks

00:53:33 ◼   ► because they've had a couple of years

00:53:35 ◼   ► and they've had time.

00:53:36 ◼   ► This is obviously one of the first Apple Silicon Macs.

00:53:40 ◼   ► So to revisit it a little bit later

00:53:43 ◼   ► and tweak it a little bit.

00:53:45 ◼   ► So the things on the list, right,

00:53:47 ◼   ► are is there a variant of it that uses the Pro chip maybe,

00:53:52 ◼   ► like the Mac mini to give it a little more speed

00:53:56 ◼   ► if you wanna pay more

00:53:57 ◼   ► or are they not capable of cooling that?

00:54:01 ◼   ► There's a question of like,

00:54:02 ◼   ► could they do something with a display

00:54:04 ◼   ► that's nicer.

00:54:06 ◼   ► Although the idea again, it's an iMac,

00:54:09 ◼   ► you put ProMotion on an iMac, a 24 inch iMac,

00:54:12 ◼   ► I'm not sure you do.

00:54:13 ◼   ► And then the March report says that they've changed

00:54:16 ◼   ► the way that the stand attaches.

00:54:17 ◼   ► And I'm not quite sure whether that's just

00:54:18 ◼   ► an internal manufacturing thing

00:54:20 ◼   ► or if the stand is gonna be different.

00:54:22 ◼   ► You have an iMac though.

00:54:23 ◼   ► I'm actually more curious about,

00:54:26 ◼   ► as somebody with an M1 iMac,

00:54:28 ◼   ► where you think that they could improve this.

00:54:31 ◼   ► - I mean, the obvious answer is a bigger one,

00:54:33 ◼   ► but I feel like that's kind of cheating,

00:54:35 ◼   ► but I would like a bigger one.

00:54:36 ◼   ► I think that like the Mac Mini,

00:54:40 ◼   ► I would like to see more chip options,

00:54:42 ◼   ► like an M3 Pro in the iMac,

00:54:46 ◼   ► I don't think would be a wild thing to ask for.

00:54:50 ◼   ► I feel like for me really, as a machine,

00:54:53 ◼   ► it was the only place where I felt

00:54:56 ◼   ► like it was lacking ultimately,

00:54:57 ◼   ► was from a usability perspective,

00:55:00 ◼   ► was the M1 is obviously great,

00:55:03 ◼   ► but when I was comparing it to my M1 Pro,

00:55:08 ◼   ► I think I have a Macs, MacBook Pro, very different,

00:55:11 ◼   ► in a way that I don't feel that difference so heavily

00:55:14 ◼   ► when I go from M2 to M1 Pro.

00:55:16 ◼   ► So if they had an M3 and an M3 Pro configuration,

00:55:21 ◼   ► I just think that would be really good for that machine.

00:55:23 ◼   ► I think it would then more easily fit

00:55:25 ◼   ► into different work spots, like places work,

00:55:28 ◼   ► if they're not going to make a quote unquote

00:55:32 ◼   ► pro version of the machine, right?

00:55:34 ◼   ► - Right, exactly.

00:55:36 ◼   ► - Again, another more realistic request

00:55:39 ◼   ► would be a better webcam, right?

00:55:40 ◼   ► What I'll just ask of all of them,

00:55:42 ◼   ► but especially the iMac, you've got space, you have space.

00:55:46 ◼   ► Right, like, you know, if the biggest issue

00:55:48 ◼   ► with the laptops is there's not a lot of space in the lid,

00:55:50 ◼   ► you've got like depth that you could put a better camera

00:55:54 ◼   ► into this display if you wanted to.

00:55:56 ◼   ► - Hard not to believe that they won't,

00:55:59 ◼   ► at the very least, do what they did

00:56:03 ◼   ► with the studio display, right?

00:56:05 ◼   ► And offer center stage.

00:56:06 ◼   ► Now, it would be interesting if they did that,

00:56:09 ◼   ► but the experience was better or the camera was better,

00:56:12 ◼   ► because that would suggest that they've iterated there

00:56:15 ◼   ► and said back to the drawing board for that camera.

00:56:18 ◼   ► But if I had to put money down,

00:56:20 ◼   ► my guess would be it'll have a center stage camera, yeah.

00:56:23 ◼   ► - And I do want a better stand,

00:56:24 ◼   ► or at least stand options,

00:56:27 ◼   ► like the studio displays options.

00:56:29 ◼   ► - Right, 'cause it just has the one, right?

00:56:31 ◼   ► - Yeah, that's it.

00:56:32 ◼   ► - Or I think you can get a VESA mount,

00:56:35 ◼   ► but you can't do an adjustable stand or anything like that.

00:56:37 ◼   ► That would be awfully nice

00:56:38 ◼   ► if they had the same stand options as the studio display,

00:56:42 ◼   ► and you could have an adjustable stand.

00:56:43 ◼   ► - And I know it'd be complicated

00:56:45 ◼   ► because then they would need to make

00:56:47 ◼   ► like another six colors of it or whatever.

00:56:49 ◼   ► - Colors, yeah.

00:56:50 ◼   ► - We spoke about it at the time,

00:56:53 ◼   ► and I spoke about it many times since,

00:56:55 ◼   ► like the height that those machines get off the desk

00:56:58 ◼   ► is just not high enough to really be comfortable.

00:57:01 ◼   ► And I would like to see that. - Yeah, it's a little low.

00:57:02 ◼   ► - Yeah. - Yeah, it's just,

00:57:04 ◼   ► it's a little low, adjustable stand would be,

00:57:06 ◼   ► that's one of those areas where Apple will say,

00:57:08 ◼   ► "Oh, well, we did our ergonomic blah, blah, blah."

00:57:10 ◼   ► But I think the truth is they did their ergonomic blah,

00:57:12 ◼   ► blah, blah, and maybe they found like a height

00:57:15 ◼   ► that was the best common height.

00:57:17 ◼   ► I'm skeptical because it's still pretty low, but maybe.

00:57:22 ◼   ► But the problem is that you're just taking the top

00:57:24 ◼   ► the bell curve there.

00:57:25 ◼   ► Like I think that your monitor should be adjustable

00:57:29 ◼   ► and the iMac is a monitor.

00:57:31 ◼   ► The idea, I think I said in my review at the time

00:57:33 ◼   ► that it's a beautiful computer

00:57:34 ◼   ► and then you have to put it on a book or something, right?

00:57:36 ◼   ► Like an encyclopedia in order to get it to the right height

00:57:40 ◼   ► and it's stupid, like you should be able to adjust it.

00:57:42 ◼   ► So whether they could make you make an adjustable version

00:57:45 ◼   ► or they could build it with the adjustable stand built in,

00:57:50 ◼   ► that would be awfully nice.

00:57:51 ◼   ► David in our Discord pointed out something that I think

00:57:55 ◼   ► was on our list back in the day

00:57:56 ◼   ► when we talked about the M1 when it first came out,

00:57:58 ◼   ► which was the possibility that they could make

00:58:01 ◼   ► that power plug block that's got the ethernet port in it,

00:58:05 ◼   ► a more useful like USB dock where you could,

00:58:10 ◼   ► 'cause the whole idea there is,

00:58:11 ◼   ► oh, you don't want a networking cord on your desk,

00:58:15 ◼   ► so you can put it on the floor

00:58:16 ◼   ► and plug it into the power block.

00:58:17 ◼   ► And it's like, yes, okay,

00:58:18 ◼   ► I would like some other things to plug into that.

00:58:20 ◼   ► - But what about literally every other cord?

00:58:22 ◼   ► Why just this one?

00:58:24 ◼   ► What's so bad about ethernet?

00:58:26 ◼   ► - And it's an upsell because that ethernet cord

00:58:28 ◼   ► is only on higher end models or you have to buy it extra

00:58:32 ◼   ► on the lower end model.

00:58:33 ◼   ► So do that, we also have this amazing new iMac dock,

00:58:38 ◼   ► especially if the computer's not changing.

00:58:40 ◼   ► What do you highlight as Apple,

00:58:42 ◼   ► as you're marketing the new version of it?

00:58:44 ◼   ► M3 chip, sure, okay, great.

00:58:46 ◼   ► Same great colors, well, okay, that's the same.

00:58:49 ◼   ► But you could say like, we've got this awesome new,

00:58:50 ◼   ► look at this awesome thing we built.

00:58:52 ◼   ► We built this whole new power block thing

00:58:55 ◼   ► that is a USB hub, a USB-C hub, a Thunderbolt hub,

00:59:00 ◼   ► whatever they wanna say.

00:59:02 ◼   ► And how many people do we talk to in our audience

00:59:05 ◼   ► who are like one of the constant things people talk about

00:59:08 ◼   ► is like Thunderbolt hubs and this doesn't work right

00:59:11 ◼   ► with this or USB-C hubs and this doesn't work right

00:59:13 ◼   ► in this connection and all that.

00:59:15 ◼   ► And like, I'm not saying that Apple would,

00:59:18 ◼   ► Apple would just add complexity to that obviously,

00:59:20 ◼   ► but it would be the Apple official,

00:59:23 ◼   ► like Apple has done it and integrated it,

00:59:25 ◼   ► and here it is, it's built into your iMac.

00:59:28 ◼   ► And yeah, it takes that cord clutter argument further.

00:59:33 ◼   ► Like you could even plug in some devices over here

00:59:36 ◼   ► and not worry about them.

00:59:38 ◼   ► I would love to see that.

00:59:39 ◼   ► So that's a good suggestion from David in the Discord.

00:59:41 ◼   ► - And also this is unrealistic, I think,

00:59:44 ◼   ► to ask for this machine, but again,

00:59:46 ◼   ► eventually it will come to everything,

00:59:48 ◼   ► but a ProMotion display,

00:59:49 ◼   ► or just a higher quality display.

00:59:52 ◼   ► - I agree, I think it's inevitable everywhere,

00:59:56 ◼   ► but this iMac is essentially the only iMac,

01:00:00 ◼   ► but I was gonna say it's the old low-end iMac slot

01:00:02 ◼   ► a little bit, and value is important, right?

01:00:04 ◼   ► They wanna keep the price down, and I don't think,

01:00:07 ◼   ► I think that ProMotion is a great feature

01:00:09 ◼   ► to have in products with the word pro in them,

01:00:12 ◼   ► and that means not the iMac.

01:00:14 ◼   ► feels unlikely to get promotion in an iMac

01:00:18 ◼   ► before a studio display, right?

01:00:20 ◼   ► - Yes, 100%.

01:00:22 ◼   ► - But I would still like it.

01:00:24 ◼   ► Mark Gorman also confirmed that there are three new Macs

01:00:26 ◼   ► expected between spring and summer.

01:00:28 ◼   ► So it is the 15 inch MacBook Air

01:00:31 ◼   ► that we've been hearing about.

01:00:33 ◼   ► Or at least a 15 inch laptop to fill a space.

01:00:37 ◼   ► - Right, 'cause we don't know, marketing wise

01:00:39 ◼   ► they could choose to call it MacBook or MacBook Air.

01:00:42 ◼   ► - Or MacBook Studio or anything.

01:00:44 ◼   ► an update to the 13-inch MacBook Air

01:00:47 ◼   ► and also the Apple Silicon Mac Pro.

01:00:49 ◼   ► - So an update to the 13-inch MacBook Air

01:00:52 ◼   ► is fascinating, right?

01:00:53 ◼   ► Because that just came out last June.

01:00:56 ◼   ► So if it's a physical update, like it's a new model,

01:01:00 ◼   ► I don't, I mean, it would have to be an M3.

01:01:04 ◼   ► His story is like, "Yeah, it's unclear

01:01:06 ◼   ► if it's an M2 or an M3."

01:01:07 ◼   ► And it's like, well, one of two things is true.

01:01:10 ◼   ► 'Cause they're not gonna say, "Here's a new MacBook Air."

01:01:12 ◼   ► It's just like the old one, right?

01:01:13 ◼   ► Like, well, no, that's not new.

01:01:17 ◼   ► It's the old one.

01:01:18 ◼   ► You just set it.

01:01:19 ◼   ► So either it's got a new chip in it

01:01:22 ◼   ► or they're doing something else with it.

01:01:25 ◼   ► Like my guess would be at that point,

01:01:26 ◼   ► it's like new colors or something, right?

01:01:29 ◼   ► But if this is truly a new,

01:01:32 ◼   ► and I'm not sure his report would rise to the level

01:01:35 ◼   ► if all they were doing was changing the colors.

01:01:37 ◼   ► So it feels to me like what this is,

01:01:39 ◼   ► is they're going to do maybe a WWDC again

01:01:42 ◼   ► or a little bit thereafter, they're going to just say,

01:01:45 ◼   ► "Here's the new MacBook Air with M3."

01:01:47 ◼   ► And it's the M2 MacBook Air except with M3,

01:01:50 ◼   ► and that's the difference to it.

01:01:52 ◼   ► And maybe they'll add colors anyway,

01:01:54 ◼   ► 'cause please, please, please, Apple, color laptop.

01:01:59 ◼   ► - This makes me think that they are going to call

01:02:03 ◼   ► that 15-inch laptop a MacBook Air,

01:02:05 ◼   ► because I could imagine them saying,

01:02:08 ◼   ► "Here is this new 15-inch MacBook Air.

01:02:10 ◼   ► It has this and this and this,

01:02:12 ◼   ► and it features an M3, and today we're also putting the M3

01:02:16 ◼   ► in the 13-inch MacBook Air, moving on.

01:02:18 ◼   ► - The only thing that gives me pause there

01:02:20 ◼   ► is that that 15-inch MacBook Air is rumored to be soon,

01:02:23 ◼   ► and I'm not sure, is the M3 gonna be ready,

01:02:26 ◼   ► or is it gonna be the last sort of consumer M2,

01:02:29 ◼   ► and then they'll do the M3 in three to six months?

01:02:33 ◼   ► - No idea.

01:02:34 ◼   ► - Right, that's, so I think there's definitely a scenario

01:02:35 ◼   ► here where if that MacBook Air is being made now,

01:02:38 ◼   ► it's an M2, and it'll come out as an M2,

01:02:40 ◼   ► and then in June or July or August,

01:02:42 ◼   ► they'll announce the MacBook Air with the M3,

01:02:46 ◼   ► and that'll be the launch of the M3,

01:02:48 ◼   ► which is that core MacBook Air.

01:02:50 ◼   ► I think that's the most likely scenario.

01:02:51 ◼   ► - That just doesn't make sense to me,

01:02:54 ◼   ► to update the M2 one year later with an M3.

01:02:57 ◼   ► I don't get, I'm not sure I can get that.

01:03:01 ◼   ► - I think it may just be production

01:03:03 ◼   ► that they're gonna bump this out there,

01:03:06 ◼   ► and right, because yes,

01:03:09 ◼   ► Ideally you would release them in lockstep, right?

01:03:11 ◼   ► New 13 and 15,

01:03:12 ◼   ► but they may not have the ability to do that right now.

01:03:15 ◼   ► And so they'll put out the 15

01:03:16 ◼   ► and then they'll put out the M3 Air.

01:03:18 ◼   ► And then six months later,

01:03:19 ◼   ► they'll put out the M3 version of the 15

01:03:22 ◼   ► and then they'll sync up the next year or something.

01:03:23 ◼   ► Maybe, maybe.

01:03:25 ◼   ► I mean, this is the question though, right?

01:03:27 ◼   ► Also, we don't know when they were intended, right?

01:03:28 ◼   ► Like that MacBook Air may be intended for late summer

01:03:31 ◼   ► and that Mac, the 15 inch, whatever it is,

01:03:34 ◼   ► might've been intended even for earlier, right?

01:03:36 ◼   ► And it sort of slid.

01:03:38 ◼   ► And we think they're so close together,

01:03:40 ◼   ► why don't they both release at the same time?

01:03:43 ◼   ► And they think, no, no, no, you're not seeing,

01:03:46 ◼   ► not to have another tangent,

01:03:49 ◼   ► but you know how the Marvel fans will talk about like MCU,

01:03:53 ◼   ► phase four, and oh, now it's phase five and all that.

01:03:56 ◼   ► But like, it's kind of invisible

01:03:57 ◼   ► and people who aren't hardcore fans

01:03:59 ◼   ► don't pay attention to that stuff, right?

01:04:01 ◼   ► Well, this is a little like that,

01:04:03 ◼   ► where it's like inside Apple,

01:04:04 ◼   ► we may be watching the end of the M2 collection of products

01:04:07 ◼   ► and the beginning of the M3 collection of products.

01:04:10 ◼   ► And these two, you know,

01:04:12 ◼   ► this one product is sort of slid to the end,

01:04:15 ◼   ► and then here's this next one,

01:04:16 ◼   ► and Mark talks about them together,

01:04:18 ◼   ► but from the inside, it may be like, no, no, no, no, no.

01:04:21 ◼   ► This is an M2 and that's an M3,

01:04:23 ◼   ► because it's part of the different cycle.

01:04:25 ◼   ► But they've slid close enough together that we're like,

01:04:26 ◼   ► why can't they all be M3s?

01:04:28 ◼   ► I don't know.

01:04:29 ◼   ► I mean, that's part of standing on the outside,

01:04:31 ◼   ► looking inside the black box.

01:04:33 ◼   ► Certainly, everybody's really hyped

01:04:35 ◼   ► about the 15-inch MacBook Air,

01:04:37 ◼   ► might be a little sad if it's an M2,

01:04:39 ◼   ► knowing that there's an M3 chip coming in a few months.

01:04:42 ◼   ► At the same time, the M2 is so capable,

01:04:44 ◼   ► especially for something that's the class

01:04:46 ◼   ► of the MacBook Air, that I would really not worry about it.

01:04:49 ◼   ► I mean, like preview of my review of a product

01:04:51 ◼   ► that has not been announced.

01:04:52 ◼   ► If there's a 15 inch MacBook Air with M2,

01:04:54 ◼   ► the fact that it doesn't have an M3 in it

01:04:56 ◼   ► is not gonna be a big deal.

01:04:57 ◼   ► It's gonna be, it's fine.

01:04:59 ◼   ► It's just fine because the M2 MacBook Air right now

01:05:02 ◼   ► is awesome and M2 is more than enough

01:05:05 ◼   ► for almost everybody.

01:05:13 ◼   ► The M2 chip was always designed as a stop gap ahead of the M3, which will mark the first

01:05:18 ◼   ► time Apple is moving from a 5nm chip to a 3nm design. The shift will bring a major boost

01:05:24 ◼   ► to performance and power efficiency. Having the new MacBook Air sport the M3 would also

01:05:29 ◼   ► make sense from a timing perspective. Apple has been clear it wants to put Mac grade processors

01:05:34 ◼   ► on an annual upgrade cycle. Last year Apple introduced the M2 chip at WWDC. If Apple were

01:05:41 ◼   ► to stick to last year's schedule, an M3 alongside a new MacBook Air would make sense. The company

01:05:46 ◼   ► could then follow up with the M3 later in the year and the M3 Pro and M3 Macs based

01:05:52 ◼   ► Pros in 2024.

01:05:53 ◼   ► So, one quibble with that, which he says Apple has always been clear that they want the M

01:05:57 ◼   ► series on an annual cycle. No. No. Maybe they said it somewhere, maybe he's got sources,

01:06:02 ◼   ► has it been clear? No. I'm assuming he means it's clear. In fact, it's been very unclear. To him? I suppose.

01:06:08 ◼   ► Because no, I agree with you. They've never said that. I don't know. He phrases that in a way that I don't agree with at all.

01:06:14 ◼   ► I don't think they've been clear about that. Maybe, and it's so, so now it's unclear, ironically, that

01:06:19 ◼   ► it might be, we don't know if it's Mark's source or if it's something else. But what he says is a three nanometer process, though.

01:06:26 ◼   ► This is what we've been talking about for a while now, which is,

01:06:31 ◼   ► feels like the M3.

01:06:35 ◼   ► So the M1 is based on the A14.

01:06:39 ◼   ► The M2 is based on the A15.

01:06:41 ◼   ► The iPhone Pro is currently using the A16.

01:06:45 ◼   ► Now, normally you would think the M3

01:06:47 ◼   ► would use the A16 cores.

01:06:50 ◼   ► A16 is not a three nanometer process, right?

01:06:54 ◼   ► It's their enhanced five nanometer process.

01:06:56 ◼   ► Is that right?

01:06:57 ◼   ► - I believe so.

01:06:58 ◼   ► I don't think there are any three nanometers

01:06:59 ◼   ► at all at the moment.

01:07:00 ◼   ► - Right, they have, it's that enhanced, whatever,

01:07:04 ◼   ► what it is, enhanced five nanometer and four P process.

01:07:09 ◼   ► Yeah, yeah, so they call it four.

01:07:11 ◼   ► Mark says three here.

01:07:12 ◼   ► So if we take Mark at his word,

01:07:14 ◼   ► I think it fits that idea that the A16 itself

01:07:18 ◼   ► is sort of like also a stop gap

01:07:20 ◼   ► and that, and the next M series chip

01:07:24 ◼   ► is not gonna be based on that A16

01:07:26 ◼   ► that we saw last fall on the iPhone Pro.

01:07:28 ◼   ► It's gonna be based on a new,

01:07:31 ◼   ► it might be the same cores on the new process, who knows?

01:07:33 ◼   ► But like, it's gonna be different.

01:07:35 ◼   ► It's not gonna be, oh, this is the A16 again,

01:07:39 ◼   ► except max sized.

01:07:40 ◼   ► It's gonna either be a new bunch of cores

01:07:43 ◼   ► that are like the A17, or it's gonna be the A16,

01:07:46 ◼   ► but at a new process size with a bunch of max stuff in it.

01:07:49 ◼   ► It's gonna be different.

01:07:50 ◼   ► And that's exciting, right?

01:07:51 ◼   ► Because it's not, it breaks the mold of every time

01:07:55 ◼   ► and the Mac updates its hardware,

01:07:58 ◼   ► it just inherits the stuff from the last iPhone chip.

01:08:02 ◼   ► It makes it a little bit different.

01:08:03 ◼   ► And if they truly are trying to get to a one year cycle

01:08:06 ◼   ► with the M series, which makes sense, right?

01:08:08 ◼   ► 'Cause they're on the one year cycle with the iPhone,

01:08:10 ◼   ► being 18 months with the Mac means

01:08:12 ◼   ► that you probably do have to skip

01:08:14 ◼   ► a phone chip generation every so often.

01:08:16 ◼   ► So if they truly wanna get there,

01:08:19 ◼   ► they need to push it ahead.

01:08:21 ◼   ► But I do believe very much, very strongly

01:08:23 ◼   ► that there's nothing stopping from Apple

01:08:25 ◼   ► to showing off next generation cores,

01:08:28 ◼   ► CPU or GPU or other stuff in the Mac

01:08:31 ◼   ► because M1 and M2, and he calling it a stop gap.

01:08:34 ◼   ► I mean, yeah, that's exactly right.

01:08:36 ◼   ► M1 and M2, it's like for Apple to raise

01:08:39 ◼   ► this whole Apple Silicon thing up and get it running,

01:08:41 ◼   ► they have done this sort of like,

01:08:43 ◼   ► well, we're spinning off of our iPhone work,

01:08:45 ◼   ► but it's entirely possible that Apple is gonna get

01:08:47 ◼   ► to a point and maybe it's the M3 where Apple's like,

01:08:50 ◼   ► you know, it's not that simple.

01:08:52 ◼   ► Maybe we'll have our boys back on, our chip pals,

01:08:57 ◼   ► Tom and Tim, maybe they can tell us this.

01:08:59 ◼   ► - Ah, boys. - But the idea is,

01:09:04 ◼   ► it's not that simple.

01:09:05 ◼   ► I could hear Tim saying this actually, Tim Millet.

01:09:08 ◼   ► It's not that simple.

01:09:11 ◼   ► We might introduce new cores here

01:09:14 ◼   ► and then they come to the iPhone later.

01:09:16 ◼   ► Like there's nothing stopping Apple from saying,

01:09:18 ◼   ► our new core generation starts on the Mac

01:09:21 ◼   ► and then we'll use those cores in the iPhone

01:09:23 ◼   ► or our new CPU cores,

01:09:24 ◼   ► or maybe our new GPU cores start on the Mac.

01:09:26 ◼   ► And then they come to the iPhone later.

01:09:28 ◼   ► Like they can do that.

01:09:29 ◼   ► It's not, you know,

01:09:31 ◼   ► the system does not permanently have to be structured as

01:09:35 ◼   ► we take an iPhone chip and we photocopy it

01:09:37 ◼   ► and then we expand it.

01:09:38 ◼   ► And now we've got a Mac chip.

01:09:40 ◼   ► It could very easily be a much more complicated structure.

01:09:43 ◼   ► Like that was good, I think,

01:09:45 ◼   ► as a way to do it to start Apple Silicon.

01:09:47 ◼   ► But like now that they're rolling with it

01:09:50 ◼   ► And the Mac has all these kind of particular needs

01:09:52 ◼   ► and there's particular timing involved.

01:09:54 ◼   ► Like I said earlier, the A series,

01:09:57 ◼   ► like there will be a new A17 chip, right?

01:10:00 ◼   ► There'll be an A17 chip.

01:10:01 ◼   ► And nobody is going to,

01:10:03 ◼   ► if the M3 has next generation cores

01:10:05 ◼   ► that the A16 doesn't have,

01:10:08 ◼   ► when the A17 comes out, people aren't gonna be like,

01:10:10 ◼   ► "Oh, it's such an old,

01:10:13 ◼   ► oh, it was already in the MacBook Air."

01:10:15 ◼   ► Because it's not, it's not the M3, it's the A17.

01:10:19 ◼   ► even if all of the nerds are like, it's the M3, right?

01:10:23 ◼   ► Like it doesn't matter.

01:10:24 ◼   ► So this will be something to watch.

01:10:27 ◼   ► And I know I'm, I'm bleeding a lot from him saying,

01:10:29 ◼   ► hey, there's going to be a new MacBook Air,

01:10:31 ◼   ► but it, from us trying to figure out how Apple Silicon works

01:10:35 ◼   ► over and will work over the years,

01:10:37 ◼   ► I think the idea that there might be a year after the M2,

01:10:40 ◼   ► there might be an M3 Air.

01:10:42 ◼   ► I think that's really exciting.

01:10:43 ◼   ► Beyond that and possibly colors,

01:10:45 ◼   ► I don't think it will change at all

01:10:47 ◼   ► because they just did the design.

01:10:49 ◼   ► And it's great.

01:10:50 ◼   ► So it'll just stay.

01:10:51 ◼   ► Maybe there'll be some color variations

01:10:53 ◼   ► and a new chip and that's it.

01:10:54 ◼   ► - And finally, Mark dropped into this report

01:10:57 ◼   ► that he has heard that an iPad Pro

01:10:59 ◼   ► of an M3 chip and OLED display

01:11:02 ◼   ► is due in the first half of 2024.

01:11:04 ◼   ► And that the first MacBooks with OLED screens

01:11:06 ◼   ► and touch input are currently on track for 2025.

01:11:10 ◼   ► - Okay.

01:11:11 ◼   ► - I want that.

01:11:12 ◼   ► Give me that.

01:11:14 ◼   ► - Interesting.

01:11:14 ◼   ► Yeah.

01:11:15 ◼   ► Yeah, what are they?

01:11:16 ◼   ► What do they look like?

01:11:17 ◼   ► How do they work?

01:11:18 ◼   ► Guess we'll have to wait for another Roomer Roundup

01:11:21 ◼   ► to find out.

01:11:22 ◼   ► - We sure will.

01:11:23 ◼   ► We sure will.

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01:12:36 ◼   ► Let's do some Ask Upgrade questions to finish out today's episode.

01:12:44 ◼   ► Oh no!

01:12:46 ◼   ► The lasers got replaced by sheep.

01:12:48 ◼   ► This is quite concerning.

01:12:50 ◼   ► - New Zealand, man, I'm telling you.

01:12:52 ◼   ► - So what you're saying is in New Zealand, lasers are sheep.

01:12:57 ◼   ► - No, I think the sheep have just covered the lasers

01:12:59 ◼   ► and there will absorb the laser energy.

01:13:02 ◼   ► - Well, hopefully by next, wait, oh no,

01:13:04 ◼   ► that's really, that's upsetting.

01:13:05 ◼   ► So if the lasers, if the sheep are covering lasers

01:13:08 ◼   ► and we heard lasers in the Rumor Roundup,

01:13:10 ◼   ► did the sheep get blown up, Jason?

01:13:12 ◼   ► Is that what you're saying?

01:13:14 ◼   ► - No, the rumor roundups in the old west.

01:13:18 ◼   ► - But they have lasers in the old west?

01:13:19 ◼   ► Is this like a Back to the Future kind of thing?

01:13:21 ◼   ► Like Back to the Future 3 when they come?

01:13:22 ◼   ► - Look, those weren't actually lasers,

01:13:24 ◼   ► they were just a six gun going pew, pew.

01:13:27 ◼   ► - Oh, interesting, a laser six gun.

01:13:29 ◼   ► - They weren't lasers at all.

01:13:30 ◼   ► It was like bang, bang, yep, whatever.

01:13:32 ◼   ► I don't know, I just made a sheep noise.

01:13:33 ◼   ► That's the, this is your New Zealand flavor.

01:13:36 ◼   ► I did it.

01:13:37 ◼   ► Not as many sheep, well, I won't get into it.

01:13:39 ◼   ► There's not as many sheep in the same one as I thought.

01:13:41 ◼   ► All right, all right.

01:13:42 ◼   ► - John wants to know, when you use

01:13:45 ◼   ► two factor authentication, do you use

01:13:47 ◼   ► an authenticator app or SMS?

01:13:50 ◼   ► - One password is what I'm using.

01:13:53 ◼   ► So authenticator app, I'm always sad

01:13:55 ◼   ► when they wanna send me a text message

01:13:57 ◼   ► because I don't want a text message,

01:13:59 ◼   ► I want to use my authenticator app.

01:14:01 ◼   ► - Yeah, when I started setting up two factor stuff,

01:14:04 ◼   ► I use text messages and I'm like transitioning that away

01:14:08 ◼   ► just because not for the, and then please,

01:14:12 ◼   ► what I'm saying is not for the security reasons, right?

01:14:14 ◼   ► It's just like, I understand the idea

01:14:17 ◼   ► that somebody could intercept my text messages,

01:14:19 ◼   ► but I feel like if somebody's trying

01:14:20 ◼   ► to intercept my text messages,

01:14:22 ◼   ► again, I've got some problems, right?

01:14:24 ◼   ► Like there are some problems in my life

01:14:26 ◼   ► if someone's trying to target me like that.

01:14:28 ◼   ► For me, it's about convenience,

01:14:31 ◼   ► and especially these days with the extension support

01:14:36 ◼   ► on iOS as well as on macOS,

01:14:40 ◼   ► the ability to just have the little one password thing,

01:14:43 ◼   ► just fill all this stuff automatically for me is amazing.

01:14:46 ◼   ► Like I love it.

01:14:48 ◼   ► So I use one password for that too.

01:14:50 ◼   ► It's easy enough to set up.

01:14:52 ◼   ► The key if you think to yourself,

01:14:55 ◼   ► 'cause this took me a while to get my head around,

01:14:57 ◼   ► if you're like, wait, how are they using one password

01:15:00 ◼   ► for authentication or like the two factor?

01:15:03 ◼   ► In one password, they're called one time passwords or OTP.

01:15:08 ◼   ► That's the part that you're setting up.

01:15:10 ◼   ► It's in every entry.

01:15:12 ◼   ► You can add a one-time password

01:15:15 ◼   ► and you have to put in a code or scan a QR code

01:15:17 ◼   ► and then it will generate the two-factor code.

01:15:19 ◼   ► So if you've ever been confused, that's what you want.

01:15:22 ◼   ► But yeah, I agree with you.

01:15:24 ◼   ► Way easier to just do it in an app

01:15:26 ◼   ► than to deal with text messages.

01:15:28 ◼   ► - These days with the new Safari extensions

01:15:32 ◼   ► for the password managers too,

01:15:34 ◼   ► and also Apple's own password manager

01:15:37 ◼   ► will do one-time passwords too.

01:15:38 ◼   ► So you don't even need to use a third party,

01:15:40 ◼   ► but it all auto, like I say, here's my password,

01:15:44 ◼   ► pop up from the password manager

01:15:46 ◼   ► and its extension in the browser.

01:15:48 ◼   ► And it, in some cases it auto fills,

01:15:53 ◼   ► if the first screen presses the button,

01:15:54 ◼   ► goes to the next screen, puts in the one-time code

01:15:57 ◼   ► and presses the button and I'm in,

01:15:59 ◼   ► and I haven't had to do anything, that's great.

01:16:02 ◼   ► - Sometimes you have to like just tap in the text field

01:16:04 ◼   ► and then it's like pasting it in or something.

01:16:06 ◼   ► It's super clever and it's super easy.

01:16:09 ◼   ► You know, it is great when,

01:16:11 ◼   ► and I love when Apple added that like text message,

01:16:14 ◼   ► like thing where like it could work out the codes

01:16:16 ◼   ► from the text and just drop them in for you.

01:16:17 ◼   ► - Oh yeah. - It's like a great feature.

01:16:19 ◼   ► But to be honest,

01:16:21 ◼   ► like just getting the text messages annoy me

01:16:23 ◼   ► 'cause it just fills up my text, my iMessage.

01:16:25 ◼   ► It's just like a bunch of crap that I don't want.

01:16:27 ◼   ► - You go back to messages and you're like,

01:16:28 ◼   ► your 2FA code is, and you're like, shut up, I don't want it.

01:16:31 ◼   ► - I wished that it would delete those messages for me.

01:16:34 ◼   ► - Yeah, I mean, that's a,

01:16:35 ◼   ► there's a feature, actually that would be amazing.

01:16:38 ◼   ► This is a feature for Ricky Mondello, if they're listening,

01:16:42 ◼   ► who is one of the people who implements this stuff at Apple.

01:16:45 ◼   ► I'll tweet to Ricky or I'll mastodon post to Ricky

01:16:49 ◼   ► after the show, but that would be amazing

01:16:52 ◼   ► if Apple could actually classify those things

01:16:54 ◼   ► that were text messages that it knows

01:16:55 ◼   ► or text messages that you're acting on for two factor.

01:16:58 ◼   ► Maybe if you use the auto-insert,

01:17:02 ◼   ► it like puts it optionally, like puts it away somewhere,

01:17:05 ◼   ► like puts it in a two factor folder or something.

01:17:09 ◼   ► - Because it already does the thing

01:17:11 ◼   ► where it marks it as read.

01:17:12 ◼   ► It makes a change to the message.

01:17:15 ◼   ► So yeah, if you could just like get rid of it somehow,

01:17:17 ◼   ► that'd be great.

01:17:19 ◼   ► - That would be nice.

01:17:20 ◼   ► I love it.

01:17:21 ◼   ► I love that idea.

01:17:22 ◼   ► I will say everybody's gonna get more SMS messages

01:17:26 ◼   ► in the future,

01:17:27 ◼   ► because even though we have this authentication technology,

01:17:31 ◼   ► You know what SMS messages do?

01:17:33 ◼   ► They tie your login to a device.

01:17:36 ◼   ► And while we're all like,

01:17:38 ◼   ► "Oh, I don't need to tie my login to a device."

01:17:41 ◼   ► You're thinking, "Well, who cares about that?"

01:17:43 ◼   ► The answer is Netflix and everybody else

01:17:47 ◼   ► who is worried about password sharing.

01:17:50 ◼   ► By tying authentication to an SMS,

01:17:52 ◼   ► they tie it to you personally.

01:17:56 ◼   ► And so then if your friend is trying to log in

01:17:59 ◼   ► And every so often they're like,

01:18:01 ◼   ► "Hey, haven't seen you in a while

01:18:03 ◼   ► or haven't tested you in a while Netflix user,

01:18:07 ◼   ► give me, we just sent you a code.

01:18:11 ◼   ► Why don't you give me that code?"

01:18:12 ◼   ► And then your friend who's sharing your password,

01:18:14 ◼   ► your roommate from two years ago

01:18:15 ◼   ► who's sharing your password has to call you or text you

01:18:18 ◼   ► and say like, "What's the code?

01:18:20 ◼   ► You just got sent a code."

01:18:22 ◼   ► And it also means that people are less likely to share codes

01:18:25 ◼   ► because they're gonna start getting authenticator messages

01:18:29 ◼   ► for other people logging into their shared account

01:18:31 ◼   ► and then they're gonna have to do something about it.

01:18:33 ◼   ► And it's not like email you could forward

01:18:37 ◼   ► and two factor codes you can share,

01:18:40 ◼   ► but text messages you can't.

01:18:42 ◼   ► And so I predict that we're actually gonna get

01:18:46 ◼   ► way more text messages in the future

01:18:50 ◼   ► because as these services start cracking down

01:18:53 ◼   ► on password sharing,

01:18:54 ◼   ► 'cause it is a method of preventing password sharing

01:18:57 ◼   ► as annoying as that is.

01:18:58 ◼   ► - Do you think that pass keys could be used for this?

01:19:03 ◼   ► - I don't know.

01:19:06 ◼   ► - I'm wondering, do they tie you to the device

01:19:09 ◼   ► like more closely? - No, I think you can share

01:19:11 ◼   ► pass keys. - Okay.

01:19:14 ◼   ► - I think you can share pass keys.

01:19:15 ◼   ► And this is anything that you can share easily

01:19:17 ◼   ► that's digital is not what Netflix wants, right?

01:19:21 ◼   ► They want, 'cause I have some, what was it?

01:19:23 ◼   ► I had some service that did that, some streaming service

01:19:27 ◼   ► and my daughter will occasionally be like,

01:19:28 ◼   ► "Can I have the two-factor code?"

01:19:30 ◼   ► Yeah, here it is.

01:19:32 ◼   ► But it's going to happen more

01:19:36 ◼   ► because it is a real passive aggressive way

01:19:40 ◼   ► of getting both sides of the password sharing

01:19:43 ◼   ► to realize this is a pain.

01:19:45 ◼   ► I have a service that does it via email

01:19:49 ◼   ► and there are a few that do it that way.

01:19:51 ◼   ► And that, here's a little tip,

01:19:52 ◼   ► that is great because you can set up email rules

01:19:54 ◼   ► to just forward it to all the people

01:19:56 ◼   ► share the password with. But text messages, you can't really do that and that's how they

01:20:02 ◼   ► get you. That's how they get you.

01:20:05 ◼   ► Sam asks, "Would you rather pay less for an Apple device if it meant you had to pay for

01:20:12 ◼   ► Apple apps such as Maps, Notes, Calendar, the Home app?"

01:20:16 ◼   ► Thanks for example.

01:20:19 ◼   ► This is a weird question.

01:20:20 ◼   ► It is interesting to me though.

01:20:23 ◼   ► I mean, I am in the Apple Plus bundle, right?

01:20:25 ◼   ► Apple One bundle.

01:20:26 ◼   ► So I'm already there.

01:20:28 ◼   ► I would be paying for it anyway.

01:20:29 ◼   ► And I am already paying full price for an Apple device.

01:20:33 ◼   ► So I think it's an interesting idea.

01:20:35 ◼   ► I think Apple will never offer anything like this

01:20:38 ◼   ► unless they're mandated by a government

01:20:42 ◼   ► because Apple feels like

01:20:46 ◼   ► their software is part of the product

01:20:50 ◼   ► and it's part of the equation is you get all that stuff

01:20:53 ◼   ► with your device.

01:20:55 ◼   ► And I worry about any Apple that would sell

01:20:57 ◼   ► a de-contented device and then say,

01:21:01 ◼   ► you gotta sign up for iCloud in order to get

01:21:03 ◼   ► the contents on it, otherwise too bad.

01:21:06 ◼   ► I don't like that as an approach.

01:21:08 ◼   ► And I don't, honestly, I don't think it would allow them

01:21:10 ◼   ► to charge significantly less either.

01:21:12 ◼   ► - No, I don't think, even if this was a thing

01:21:16 ◼   ► they had to do, and if they charge less,

01:21:19 ◼   ► it wouldn't be much less.

01:21:21 ◼   ► It wouldn't be much less.

01:21:22 ◼   ► This question was just intriguing to me

01:21:25 ◼   ► because it's like we're just entering

01:21:27 ◼   ► a very interesting regulatory period, I think,

01:21:32 ◼   ► for tech companies now,

01:21:33 ◼   ► maybe more than it's ever been before.

01:21:35 ◼   ► And I, when looking at this question,

01:21:38 ◼   ► was just wondering like what it would be like

01:21:42 ◼   ► for Apple to have to split this stuff from the system more.

01:21:46 ◼   ► not necessarily in charging, but the ability to have third parties tie into all of this

01:21:52 ◼   ► and how complicated that could make a lot of the ways that these devices work.

01:21:57 ◼   ► I just wonder if we're going to end up in a situation like that again because none of

01:22:02 ◼   ► these companies are willing to make concessions unless they're direct through court to do

01:22:06 ◼   ► it.

01:22:07 ◼   ► Tom asks, "In traffic, speed bumps are used to slow down cars.

01:22:16 ◼   ► Why is it that with computers, a speed bump

01:22:19 ◼   ► has the exact opposite meaning,

01:22:21 ◼   ► implying an increase in speed?

01:22:25 ◼   ► - Okay, first off, I want a little sidebar here.

01:22:27 ◼   ► In the UK, these are speed humps, aren't they?

01:22:30 ◼   ► Is that what they are?

01:22:31 ◼   ► Are they humps?

01:22:32 ◼   ► - Maybe, some people could call them that,

01:22:37 ◼   ► but equally people could call them speed bumps.

01:22:39 ◼   ► I don't really, I don't really,

01:22:42 ◼   ► I don't hear anyone saying speed humps anymore.

01:22:45 ◼   ► - Okay, I saw, I mean, I saw there was a sign

01:22:47 ◼   ► about speed humps, I remember when we were there

01:22:50 ◼   ► five years ago.

01:22:51 ◼   ► Also, I was told that they're often referred

01:22:53 ◼   ► to colloquially as sleeping policemen.

01:22:55 ◼   ► - Yes, that one less so much now,

01:22:57 ◼   ► but I think a sleeping policeman is also the ones

01:23:01 ◼   ► that are painted black and white primarily,

01:23:04 ◼   ► but yes, sleeping policeman is a phrase I'm familiar with.

01:23:08 ◼   ► - That's hilarious, right?

01:23:09 ◼   ► 'Cause then you go over one and you're like,

01:23:10 ◼   ► oh, we had a sleeping policeman.

01:23:12 ◼   ► (laughs)

01:23:13 ◼   ► Oh, it's so good.

01:23:14 ◼   ► - The concept of a speed bump is coming to the etymology

01:23:18 ◼   ► of it is it's a bump up in features.

01:23:23 ◼   ► And it's generally a bump up in the speed of the processor.

01:23:27 ◼   ► And so when we say it's a speed bump,

01:23:29 ◼   ► what they mean is the company is bumping up the speed

01:23:32 ◼   ► of the internals of it.

01:23:34 ◼   ► And it's become shorthand in the tech world

01:23:37 ◼   ► for a change that is very minor,

01:23:40 ◼   ► that is just some internal spec changes.

01:23:43 ◼   ► and so it ends up being called a speed bump.

01:23:45 ◼   ► There have been other phrases for that over time,

01:23:50 ◼   ► but that's the one that I end up using.

01:23:53 ◼   ► But that's the story.

01:23:54 ◼   ► So it's not a speed bump, it's a speed bump.

01:23:59 ◼   ► If that, like the etymologies are totally different

01:24:02 ◼   ► even though they end up at the same place.

01:24:03 ◼   ► So that's, and it's funny, right?

01:24:05 ◼   ► Like you have that moment where you're like,

01:24:06 ◼   ► oh, they just bumped up the speed.

01:24:07 ◼   ► It's a speed bump, like a speed bump, but not like it.

01:24:10 ◼   ► And so we end up coalescing on the same phrase

01:24:13 ◼   ► for both, that's the story there.

01:24:15 ◼   ► I wish I could remember,

01:24:17 ◼   ► we used to call these things something else

01:24:18 ◼   ► and I can't remember it now.

01:24:19 ◼   ► It's like when I went to Mac world for Mac user,

01:24:24 ◼   ► at Mac user all of our screenshots were called screen dumps.

01:24:27 ◼   ► And so you'd be like, get the dumps.

01:24:31 ◼   ► Did you turn in the dumps?

01:24:32 ◼   ► I need the dumps.

01:24:34 ◼   ► And then I went to Mac world and they looked at me

01:24:35 ◼   ► like I was a crazy person because it's,

01:24:39 ◼   ► here it's screenshots.

01:24:40 ◼   ► We don't use those unrefined terms.

01:24:42 ◼   ► It's a screenshot, which is what everybody calls them now.

01:24:45 ◼   ► So that's fine.

01:24:47 ◼   ► Anyway, speed bump.

01:24:48 ◼   ► - Fisher-Kine Discord says we should start calling

01:24:51 ◼   ► them sleeping policemen.

01:24:52 ◼   ► - I love it.

01:24:54 ◼   ► I love it.

01:24:55 ◼   ► Let's try to remember that the next time there is one.

01:24:56 ◼   ► - The M3 chips got a real good sleeping policeman

01:24:59 ◼   ► over the M3 chip. - Sleeping policeman.

01:25:00 ◼   ► Yeah, this is basically a sleeping policeman update.

01:25:03 ◼   ► - It was just funny to me that like, I've never,

01:25:09 ◼   ► I've said this so many times, right?

01:25:11 ◼   ► Both things, speed bump, I've said them both so many times

01:25:14 ◼   ► and I'd never tied it together in my brain

01:25:17 ◼   ► that I'm saying the same phrase

01:25:19 ◼   ► and it means the exact opposite in those two scenarios.

01:25:23 ◼   ► One increases the speed, one decreases the speed.

01:25:27 ◼   ► And I just thought that was,

01:25:27 ◼   ► I thought this was a very funny question

01:25:29 ◼   ► and I'm sure is one of the many weird quirks

01:25:34 ◼   ► in the English language that we could just say these

01:25:38 ◼   ► and in context, you should understand them both ways.

01:25:42 ◼   ► If you would like to send in a question

01:25:44 ◼   ► for us to answer in a future episode of the show,

01:25:46 ◼   ► just go to upgradefeedback.com

01:25:49 ◼   ► and you can send in your Ask Upgrade questions there.

01:25:52 ◼   ► Thank you to everybody that does.

01:25:55 ◼   ► It was so great to have you back, Jason.

01:25:58 ◼   ► - It's good to be back.

01:25:59 ◼   ► - You can check out Jason's writing at sixcolors.com.

01:26:02 ◼   ► You can hear his podcasts at the incomparable.com

01:26:05 ◼   ► and here on Relay FM.

01:26:06 ◼   ► You can listen to my shows here on Relay FM as well and check out my work at cortexbrand.com.

01:26:12 ◼   ► We're both on Mastodon. You can find Jason on zeppelin.flights as @jasonel

01:26:17 ◼   ► and you can find me on mike.social as @imike.

01:26:20 ◼   ► You can send your feedback and questions to upgradefeedback.com.

01:26:24 ◼   ► Thank you to our members who support us with Upgrade Plus,