Upgrade

00:00:00 ◼   ► (upbeat music)

00:00:02 ◼   ► - From Relay FM, this is Upgrade, episode 448.

00:00:13 ◼   ► Today's show is brought to you by Rocket Money,

00:00:15 ◼   ► Ooni Pizza Ovens, and ZocDoc.

00:00:17 ◼   ► My name is Mike Hurley,

00:00:18 ◼   ► and I am joined by my guest cohost, Mr. Casey Liz.

00:00:22 ◼   ► Hi, Casey.

00:00:23 ◼   ► - The time has finally come, baby.

00:00:25 ◼   ► I am so excited. - I know, here you are.

00:00:27 ◼   ► - I am so very excited.

00:00:28 ◼   ► I'm excited that Jason is getting a well-earned vacation.

00:00:32 ◼   ► I'm super excited to be here with you.

00:00:34 ◼   ► Gotta confess, a little nervous, it's a lot of pressure,

00:00:36 ◼   ► but I am here for it, I am stoked.

00:00:39 ◼   ► - Well, I know the upgrade ends are happy

00:00:40 ◼   ► 'cause oh boy, did I get a lot of questions for you.

00:00:43 ◼   ► So we're gonna start off today

00:00:45 ◼   ► with a ListTalk question from Peter.

00:00:47 ◼   ► Peter wants to know if Apple released a new version

00:00:50 ◼   ► of your beloved 12-inch MacBook

00:00:53 ◼   ► with Apple Silicon and cellular,

00:00:55 ◼   ► but the only color option was pure white,

00:00:58 ◼   ► Would you buy it?

00:00:59 ◼   ► - So I feel like I need to channel Jason

00:01:02 ◼   ► and go on like two or three tangents

00:01:03 ◼   ► before I answer the question.

00:01:05 ◼   ► First of all, I-

00:01:07 ◼   ► - Not necessarily burning, but I'm here for it.

00:01:09 ◼   ► (laughing)

00:01:11 ◼   ► - I actually didn't mean that as a burn,

00:01:12 ◼   ► but I think it did come across that way.

00:01:14 ◼   ► (laughing)

00:01:15 ◼   ► I really did, I really honestly didn't,

00:01:16 ◼   ► but I think, and now that I play that back,

00:01:18 ◼   ► I think about it come across that way.

00:01:19 ◼   ► Sorry, Jason, I love you.

00:01:21 ◼   ► Anyway, so my first Mac, my very first Mac,

00:01:24 ◼   ► literally my very first Mac,

00:01:25 ◼   ► was a white polycarbonate MacBook,

00:01:29 ◼   ► which I affectionately referred to as a polybook,

00:01:32 ◼   ► which infuriated our mutual friend, Stephen Hackett,

00:01:35 ◼   ► probably still does.

00:01:36 ◼   ► - It started to annoy me now, you know.

00:01:38 ◼   ► At first I was all on board and now I'm like, please stop.

00:01:41 ◼   ► So, you know.

00:01:42 ◼   ► - Okay, well, so the white polycarbonate MacBook,

00:01:45 ◼   ► which I loved, I really wanted the black one,

00:01:48 ◼   ► but I was too cheap to spend the 50 or $75,

00:01:50 ◼   ► I forget what it was, to get that one,

00:01:52 ◼   ► which was I think also marginally faster if memory serves.

00:01:55 ◼   ► But it was my first Mac, I didn't know if I would like it.

00:01:58 ◼   ► - Yeah, I think the black one came

00:02:00 ◼   ► in a specific configuration.

00:02:03 ◼   ► - Right, exactly.

00:02:05 ◼   ► And so I had that machine, I love that machine.

00:02:07 ◼   ► The problem with that machine though is that

00:02:10 ◼   ► it would get a little discolored from your finger grease

00:02:13 ◼   ► slash oil slash just the things that are part of your body

00:02:16 ◼   ► to keep you alive, that would rub off

00:02:18 ◼   ► onto the white polycarbonate material.

00:02:20 ◼   ► And so more so than any other computer I've ever owned,

00:02:24 ◼   ► I needed to take like a Mr. Clean Magic Eraser.

00:02:26 ◼   ► I don't know if the scrub daddy would have worked

00:02:28 ◼   ► in this capacity, but the Magic Eraser,

00:02:31 ◼   ► the Magic Eraser was very good at cleaning all that off.

00:02:32 ◼   ► And I had to do that like a couple of times a month

00:02:34 ◼   ► because even though I'm not that precious

00:02:36 ◼   ► about my computers, it still would look like Brown and Gross

00:02:39 ◼   ► and I really just like that.

00:02:40 ◼   ► But I loved that machine nevertheless.

00:02:44 ◼   ► Also, you know, I don't need to belabor the point,

00:02:46 ◼   ► but I freaking adored my 12 inch MacBook, adorable.

00:02:50 ◼   ► also known as the MacBook One.

00:02:52 ◼   ► I adored that thing.

00:02:53 ◼   ► It's still in service as Aaron's computer,

00:02:55 ◼   ► although it's getting quite long in the tooth at this point.

00:02:57 ◼   ► - I think you've got your own lore incorrect there.

00:03:00 ◼   ► - Why, what's, oh no, the MacBook One was,

00:03:02 ◼   ► no, I thought the MacBook One was this one.

00:03:04 ◼   ► - Wasn't that one the 13-inch MacBook Pro?

00:03:07 ◼   ► - The Escape, that was MacBook Escape,

00:03:09 ◼   ► because it had the Escape key, right?

00:03:10 ◼   ► I thought-- - Okay, yeah, yeah,

00:03:12 ◼   ► that's it, mm-hmm.

00:03:13 ◼   ► - No, I mean, I wouldn't put it past me

00:03:15 ◼   ► to be wrong about this.

00:03:16 ◼   ► - No, I was wrong, you were right.

00:03:17 ◼   ► I was wrong.

00:03:19 ◼   ► - All right, see, all right, we're off to a good start.

00:03:20 ◼   ► I'm still cruising.

00:03:21 ◼   ► So anyway, I love that computer.

00:03:23 ◼   ► It's so tiny, so small.

00:03:24 ◼   ► It felt no bigger than an iPad.

00:03:26 ◼   ► It quite clearly was bigger,

00:03:27 ◼   ► but it didn't feel bigger than an iPad.

00:03:28 ◼   ► But it was completely crippled

00:03:30 ◼   ► and had like 17 different Achilles heels

00:03:33 ◼   ► the moment we bought them.

00:03:34 ◼   ► And I still miss that machine and I still love it.

00:03:37 ◼   ► Well, my dad just recently got the M2 MacBook Air.

00:03:40 ◼   ► I don't know if you've heard about this machine, Mike,

00:03:41 ◼   ► but people like it.

00:03:42 ◼   ► - AKA best Mac ever made.

00:03:44 ◼   ► Is that the one you're talking about?

00:03:45 ◼   ► - That is the one.

00:03:46 ◼   ► And I was helping him get it set up

00:03:49 ◼   ► and so on and so forth.

00:03:50 ◼   ► I gotta tell you, that is a nice computer.

00:03:52 ◼   ► It really genuinely is.

00:03:53 ◼   ► And so the thought of having that computer,

00:03:56 ◼   ► but it's shrunk down just the teeniest bit,

00:03:58 ◼   ► not that it's big now,

00:03:59 ◼   ► but if you could shrink it down just a teeny, teeny,

00:04:01 ◼   ► teeny bit and oh my word, if you could put cellular on it,

00:04:05 ◼   ► that thing could be as yellow as a Rivian R1S.

00:04:09 ◼   ► And if you're caught up on ATP,

00:04:10 ◼   ► you'll understand that joke.

00:04:11 ◼   ► And I would still buy it because oh my word,

00:04:14 ◼   ► a computer that size with cellular, I'm in baby,

00:04:17 ◼   ► I'm in a hundred percent, absolutely.

00:04:19 ◼   ► I would like to thank Peter for sending in that question.

00:04:22 ◼   ► If you would like to send in a question of your own,

00:04:25 ◼   ► you can do that by going to upgradefeedback.com

00:04:28 ◼   ► and you can send in your,

00:04:30 ◼   ► well, usually they would be snow talk questions.

00:04:33 ◼   ► You can do that there.

00:04:35 ◼   ► - Indeed, now may I interrupt the flow here?

00:04:37 ◼   ► May I do a very brief Hurley talk, if possible?

00:04:39 ◼   ► I would love to throw one.

00:04:41 ◼   ► You've probably discussed this in the past

00:04:43 ◼   ► and because I'm the most forgetful human alive,

00:04:45 ◼   ► I don't recall if you have or if so what the answer is,

00:04:47 ◼   ► but I was curious.

00:04:49 ◼   ► I adore the USB Type-C SEA beach towel.

00:04:54 ◼   ► That is my preferred beach towel.

00:04:56 ◼   ► Because I thought that everything about that

00:04:59 ◼   ► was so darn clever, and as with so many things

00:05:02 ◼   ► that happened on the show, I was so jealous and annoyed

00:05:03 ◼   ► that I didn't come up with it.

00:05:04 ◼   ► And so, my actual Hurley talk question for you is,

00:05:07 ◼   ► leaving aside Cortex brand, which you should check that out,

00:05:10 ◼   ► it's excellent, would you like to plug that now, Mike?

00:05:12 ◼   ► - You can go to cortexbrand.com

00:05:14 ◼   ► and buy yourself a beautiful Sidekick notepad.

00:05:16 ◼   ► There's a video on the page if you're interested.

00:05:18 ◼   ► - A very well done video.

00:05:19 ◼   ► So, leaving aside Cortex brand,

00:05:22 ◼   ► what is your favorite upgrade merch

00:05:24 ◼   ► that you have sold over the years?

00:05:26 ◼   ► - It's probably the Beech Tale.

00:05:27 ◼   ► - Is it? Okay, good.

00:05:29 ◼   ► - I was thinking about it just recently.

00:05:31 ◼   ► Obviously, the OG Dungletown t-shirt,

00:05:33 ◼   ► like the orange one, is a classic, right?

00:05:37 ◼   ► But the Beech Tale is so ridiculous,

00:05:40 ◼   ► and I will always be thankful to Cotton Bureau

00:05:45 ◼   ► that they did it, because at first, they were like,

00:05:48 ◼   ► we don't really want to do this and we can't.

00:05:51 ◼   ► Like it's not a thing we can do.

00:05:52 ◼   ► I don't think our machines can even handle that size.

00:05:55 ◼   ► But we worked together, we got it done.

00:05:57 ◼   ► And that's a classic.

00:05:59 ◼   ► It was part of the,

00:06:01 ◼   ► it was like, it was the Surf Club range,

00:06:04 ◼   ► the Dungletown Surf Club range that had the beach towel.

00:06:07 ◼   ► - I love that one.

00:06:10 ◼   ► It is easily my favorite.

00:06:12 ◼   ► 'Cause it just works and lands that much better

00:06:14 ◼   ► as a beach towel.

00:06:15 ◼   ► 'Cause didn't you do a shirt with like similar stuff on it

00:06:17 ◼   ► - Sure, and a tote bag.

00:06:20 ◼   ► - Okay, there you go.

00:06:21 ◼   ► See, to me, the beach towel,

00:06:22 ◼   ► that's the pro move right there.

00:06:23 ◼   ► - I mentioned a moment ago the form that we have.

00:06:29 ◼   ► I'll just say it now.

00:06:31 ◼   ► If you go to upgradefeedback.com,

00:06:33 ◼   ► you can fill out our feedback form.

00:06:35 ◼   ► If you now wish, you can designate your questions

00:06:38 ◼   ► as Snell Talk, Ask Upgrade, Follow Up, or Feedback.

00:06:42 ◼   ► We have like a new type where you can just click

00:06:44 ◼   ► and choose from a list.

00:06:45 ◼   ► You don't have to do this,

00:06:46 ◼   ► But if you want to, and I'll say for me,

00:06:49 ◼   ► it's really nice to be able to just get

00:06:51 ◼   ► the Snell Tour questions and just get the Ask Up Big

00:06:54 ◼   ► questions in our back end.

00:06:55 ◼   ► So it's up to you if you want to do that.

00:06:58 ◼   ► We'd appreciate it.

00:06:59 ◼   ► I would appreciate it, especially if you did.

00:07:02 ◼   ► - Yeah, that's excellent.

00:07:03 ◼   ► I'm super jealous of this for ATP.

00:07:06 ◼   ► And I don't remember if, are we using this for analog?

00:07:08 ◼   ► We should if we're not.

00:07:09 ◼   ► - Yeah, we are, yeah.

00:07:10 ◼   ► - Okay, I'm super jealous of this for ATP

00:07:12 ◼   ► because we had a system which,

00:07:15 ◼   ► I don't know if it was identical to what you guys were doing

00:07:17 ◼   ► but was spiritually the same as what you were doing

00:07:19 ◼   ► for Ask Upgrade, especially since SKTP is stolen,

00:07:23 ◼   ► borrowed from Ask Upgrade.

00:07:24 ◼   ► And so we were crawling, or we had,

00:07:27 ◼   ► if, ttt, crawling Twitter and adding things

00:07:30 ◼   ► to a Google Sheet.

00:07:31 ◼   ► And Thetaverse-wide search in Mastodon

00:07:35 ◼   ► doesn't seem to really be a thing.

00:07:37 ◼   ► - Doesn't work.

00:07:38 ◼   ► - Yeah, so a listener's actually written something up

00:07:41 ◼   ► that I haven't had a chance to look at yet

00:07:43 ◼   ► that might accomplish this for us.

00:07:44 ◼   ► I need to dig into it and see what the situation is there,

00:07:47 ◼   ► but I'm very jealous of your fancy-schmancy form.

00:07:50 ◼   ► I'm maybe gonna have to put something together,

00:07:52 ◼   ► or maybe Marco put something together for ATP.

00:07:54 ◼   ► Or maybe we'll just steal yours.

00:07:55 ◼   ► - Very happy with the form?

00:07:57 ◼   ► - Yeah, I'm jealous.

00:07:59 ◼   ► - Are you ready to saddle up?

00:08:01 ◼   ► - Is it room around up time?

00:08:03 ◼   ► - Oh boy, is it room around up time.

00:08:04 ◼   ► - Yee-haw, I'm ready.

00:08:06 ◼   ► - 9to5Mac have discovered references

00:08:08 ◼   ► to a new quote compute module, or one word.

00:08:12 ◼   ► Is that camel case when it's like,

00:08:14 ◼   ► There's a capital letter in the middle.

00:08:16 ◼   ► - Well, it could be camel or Pascal if memory serves,

00:08:19 ◼   ► and now I'm either confirming

00:08:21 ◼   ► that I know what I'm talking about

00:08:21 ◼   ► or confirming that I'm a dope.

00:08:23 ◼   ► I believe that is Pascal case

00:08:24 ◼   ► because the first character is capitalized,

00:08:27 ◼   ► and camel case would be lowercase C, uppercase M.

00:08:30 ◼   ► Pascal case is uppercase C and uppercase M.

00:08:32 ◼   ► - Well, anyway, it's...

00:08:35 ◼   ► (laughing)

00:08:37 ◼   ► Nine to five Mac have discovered references

00:08:39 ◼   ► to a compute module device class in the new Xcode beta.

00:08:43 ◼   ► They are pontificating that this could be referencing some kind of module that the Mac

00:08:48 ◼   ► Pro could use, or some kind of processing device for the upcoming headset.

00:08:53 ◼   ► It runs a variant of iOS in some capacity.

00:08:58 ◼   ► If it was for the Mac Pro, this could be an answer to expandability.

00:09:03 ◼   ► So you could have this module that could provide expandable and upgradeable graphics for example.

00:09:09 ◼   ► like you can plug in different modules

00:09:12 ◼   ► that have different graphics capabilities,

00:09:14 ◼   ► or maybe even a way to swap in a new M chip completely

00:09:19 ◼   ► in the entire package.

00:09:20 ◼   ► What do you think?

00:09:21 ◼   ► I just really was very excited about the possibility

00:09:25 ◼   ► of forcing you to talk about the Mac Pro with me

00:09:27 ◼   ► for a minute or two.

00:09:28 ◼   ► - See, Jason's coming back around, just like that.

00:09:31 ◼   ► I saw this and I spent a lot of time thinking about this

00:09:35 ◼   ► this morning as I was prepping for today's episode,

00:09:37 ◼   ► And I'm really not sure what to make of this.

00:09:39 ◼   ► So I was trying to think to myself,

00:09:42 ◼   ► well, what makes Apple Silicon unique

00:09:44 ◼   ► and what makes Mac Pro unique separately,

00:09:46 ◼   ► two different unique things, and then, okay,

00:09:48 ◼   ► let's suppose we're gonna mash them together.

00:09:50 ◼   ► How are we gonna handle that or what are we gonna do?

00:09:52 ◼   ► And what makes Apple Silicon so cool,

00:09:55 ◼   ► or one of the things that makes it so cool,

00:09:56 ◼   ► is that it has this whole unified memory architecture thing.

00:09:59 ◼   ► And you've talked about this on Upgrade

00:10:01 ◼   ► and on your other shows,

00:10:01 ◼   ► but in case you aren't familiar, people, listeners,

00:10:05 ◼   ► The idea is in most computers, the video RAM is separate from the traditional RAM, and

00:10:12 ◼   ► in order to move stuff from one to the other, you have to actually spend the time to do

00:10:17 ◼   ► that.

00:10:18 ◼   ► And what makes that one of the things that makes Apple Silicon very different is that

00:10:20 ◼   ► they're all globbed together.

00:10:21 ◼   ► It's just one big, big, big bucket, which has some advantages.

00:10:25 ◼   ► Like, for example, you don't need to move stuff in memory from system memory to video

00:10:30 ◼   ► memory or vice versa.

00:10:31 ◼   ► It's all the same memory.

00:10:33 ◼   ► It's all already there, which is great.

00:10:35 ◼   ► the thing that's different about Apple Silicon is that for the most part it's

00:10:37 ◼   ► an entire system on a chip it's an SOC you know so all of these different

00:10:41 ◼   ► components that may be in disparate modules or really in disparate you know

00:10:45 ◼   ► pieces physical pieces of hardware they're all kind of squished together

00:10:49 ◼   ► onto onto one platter so to speak and what makes me really curious about the

00:10:55 ◼   ► Mac Pro and what actually kind of excites me about the Mac Pro God help me

00:10:58 ◼   ► is that how are they going to handle

00:11:03 ◼   ► any sort of expandability for a thing that by definition,

00:11:07 ◼   ► like one of the primary advantages of Apple Silicon

00:11:10 ◼   ► is having the entire system on one chip.

00:11:13 ◼   ► And I think what you had said, Mike,

00:11:15 ◼   ► it does potentially make sense

00:11:18 ◼   ► that maybe the compute module is the entire system on a chip

00:11:21 ◼   ► and whatever associated sundries

00:11:24 ◼   ► that need to be right next to it.

00:11:26 ◼   ► And then you take out this maybe big

00:11:28 ◼   ► or maybe not big, but you take out this box

00:11:30 ◼   ► and you throw it away 'cause your M1 is useless now

00:11:32 ◼   ► and now you plug in your M2 or your M3 or what have you.

00:11:35 ◼   ► I don't see any reason why that couldn't work,

00:11:38 ◼   ► but it just doesn't feel like that's what they would do.

00:11:42 ◼   ► That doesn't feel like an Apple-y thing to do to me.

00:11:45 ◼   ► Like can you, I can't recall a time,

00:11:47 ◼   ► and I know we really need Steven for this kind of question

00:11:49 ◼   ► or Jason for that matter, but like was there ever a time

00:11:52 ◼   ► that you could realistically and semi-easily replace

00:11:55 ◼   ► a CPU and a Mac ever?

00:11:57 ◼   ► - I don't think so.

00:11:58 ◼   ► - Not in a way that they would have allowed.

00:12:00 ◼   ► I mean, maybe during the lost times, right?

00:12:03 ◼   ► (laughing)

00:12:03 ◼   ► Let's say under the like Steve Johnny era of Mac design.

00:12:08 ◼   ► No, I don't think that's ever been possible.

00:12:10 ◼   ► - See, that's what I thought.

00:12:11 ◼   ► And so even though that's the thing

00:12:13 ◼   ► that makes the most logical sense,

00:12:15 ◼   ► because again, as I've been hammering on

00:12:17 ◼   ► for the last few minutes, it's a system on a chip

00:12:20 ◼   ► and you could put that chip in a box

00:12:22 ◼   ► and then that box becomes compute module.

00:12:23 ◼   ► It conceptually makes sense, but I just, I don't buy it.

00:12:27 ◼   ► So then I started to ask myself,

00:12:28 ◼   ► well, okay, let's put that aside for a moment.

00:12:31 ◼   ► What do you really wanna swap out in a computer,

00:12:34 ◼   ► particularly a Mac Pro?

00:12:34 ◼   ► Like what are the things you would wanna change?

00:12:37 ◼   ► Well, you're gonna wanna change the SSD in all likelihood,

00:12:39 ◼   ► either add more, change what's there,

00:12:42 ◼   ► or maybe even add spinning disks

00:12:44 ◼   ► for time machine purposes or something like that.

00:12:46 ◼   ► And from everything I can tell,

00:12:47 ◼   ► there is no reason that wouldn't work

00:12:49 ◼   ► in even an Apple Silicon Mac Pro.

00:12:52 ◼   ► That should be no problem.

00:12:53 ◼   ► But everything else that you would potentially

00:12:55 ◼   ► be interested in changing the GPU, you know, the graphics card, so to speak, the RAM, the

00:13:00 ◼   ► video RAM, if such a thing was relevant, which again, in the Apple Silicon world, it isn't

00:13:06 ◼   ► really relevant. But all of that is integrated, right?

00:13:08 ◼   ► >> But it doesn't have to be. >> And it doesn't have to be, and you're right.

00:13:14 ◼   ► But I would be surprised if Apple spent the time and engineering effort to unravel this

00:13:21 ◼   ► thing that they worked so hard to put on one chip, the whole system on a chip. I'm not

00:13:26 ◼   ► saying you're wrong by any stretch. Like it is certainly possible, but I would be surprised.

00:13:31 ◼   ► You know? Like do you think I'm bananas?

00:13:34 ◼   ► It's complicated because, I know this isn't particularly helpful for your question, but

00:13:39 ◼   ► I really do see both sides of it. It looks like where they're going right now indicates

00:13:46 ◼   ► that everything is going to be contained within an M,

00:13:49 ◼   ► we'll call it module, right?

00:13:51 ◼   ► - Sure.

00:13:52 ◼   ► - It's all in the one package.

00:13:54 ◼   ► So it seems like the possibility of you can add more RAM

00:14:00 ◼   ► to this so you can increase the,

00:14:02 ◼   ► you can have a more powerful GPU,

00:14:04 ◼   ► swap in another GPU, seems unlikely.

00:14:07 ◼   ► But then what's the point of the Mac Pro,

00:14:11 ◼   ► which makes me feel like there is something.

00:14:13 ◼   ► whether it is we have these cards that are kind of like Afterburner cards but now they're

00:14:19 ◼   ► full graphics stuff or they're full RAM stuff and it's these weird things you can plug and

00:14:24 ◼   ► play or it is this idea that like you buy the enclosure and then you can get an M4 system

00:14:32 ◼   ► on a chip in two years time and an M5 and then they just never have to worry about this

00:14:37 ◼   ► quote unquote never have to worry about designing a Mac Pro again because they've just got this

00:14:41 ◼   ► one thing and they just, every two to three years, throw out a new chip that you can plug

00:14:48 ◼   ► in.

00:14:49 ◼   ► Do I think that's going to happen?

00:14:50 ◼   ► No.

00:14:51 ◼   ► But I also didn't think the 2019 Mac Pro was a product that could have existed.

00:14:58 ◼   ► That on its own just seems like a weird product because of all the things you could do to

00:15:01 ◼   ► it and how easy it was to get in it and swap stuff around.

00:15:07 ◼   ► in this area that we're in now, it seems logical to stop at the Mac Studio. So what's the point

00:15:13 ◼   ► of the Mac Pro if not for something like this?

00:15:16 ◼   ► I agree, I agree. And I also can see both sides of this. So to go back to my mind journey,

00:15:24 ◼   ► my walk through the woods, if you will, I got to thinking, okay, so we said we can do

00:15:28 ◼   ► the SSDs, no problem. GPU, RAM, VRAM, maybe not. So what else could you put inside a Mac

00:15:35 ◼   ► Pro like what else do you really what would you really be interested in and

00:15:40 ◼   ► the only real I could think of a couple of things number one the afterburner

00:15:43 ◼   ► card which was of is available for the current Mac Pro and this is a thing that

00:15:50 ◼   ► basically if I understand it properly does hardware video trans codes

00:15:55 ◼   ► particularly for like ProRes and ProRes RAW so it makes things like Final Cut Pro

00:15:59 ◼   ► a lot faster well maybe there would be an afterburner like thing for particular

00:16:04 ◼   ► or industries or--

00:16:06 ◼   ► - They put that on the package now.

00:16:07 ◼   ► - You're right, no you're right, you're absolutely right.

00:16:10 ◼   ► - Which is kind of wild,

00:16:11 ◼   ► everything that entire unit used to do

00:16:13 ◼   ► is now just in the chip.

00:16:15 ◼   ► - Shoot, I didn't even think about that,

00:16:16 ◼   ► you're 100% correct.

00:16:17 ◼   ► - But I think you're on the right sort of lines though,

00:16:20 ◼   ► right, of like, well they did that before,

00:16:22 ◼   ► what if it's something like this,

00:16:24 ◼   ► if it's not like a full thing,

00:16:25 ◼   ► but it's like plug this in

00:16:27 ◼   ► and you can do accelerated AI stuff.

00:16:31 ◼   ► But then even the afterburner felt niche,

00:16:33 ◼   ► So like, yeah, it's weird.

00:16:36 ◼   ► - I don't know, maybe like a neural engine,

00:16:37 ◼   ► like a secondary neural engine or something like that.

00:16:39 ◼   ► The only other thing I could come up with,

00:16:41 ◼   ► which I will be the first to tell you

00:16:42 ◼   ► is a bit of a stretch, is like,

00:16:43 ◼   ► maybe you would wanna swap out wired networking.

00:16:46 ◼   ► You know, maybe it comes with like a gigabit card,

00:16:49 ◼   ► if you will. - That's not enough.

00:16:50 ◼   ► - Right, like, it's not enough.

00:16:53 ◼   ► - I mean, and that's really stretching compute

00:16:55 ◼   ► to its breaking point, right?

00:16:56 ◼   ► Like that's not really a compute module

00:16:58 ◼   ► by any reasonable definition.

00:17:00 ◼   ► - But also it's like, you wanted modularity.

00:17:02 ◼   ► you can change from one to 10 gigabit ethernet on this thing.

00:17:06 ◼   ► Enjoy.

00:17:07 ◼   ► - Right, I mean, or maybe you could plug in

00:17:09 ◼   ► like an SFP for fiber optics if you're a lunatic like I am,

00:17:12 ◼   ► but I agree with you, like that's really, that's a stretch.

00:17:15 ◼   ► So I just, I'm struggling in the same way,

00:17:18 ◼   ► and we'll be talking about this momentarily,

00:17:19 ◼   ► in the same way I'm struggling to understand

00:17:22 ◼   ► what is the purpose, what's the value add

00:17:24 ◼   ► of this mythical headset?

00:17:26 ◼   ► Like what is the purpose of the Mac Pro?

00:17:28 ◼   ► If it's not going to be, you know,

00:17:31 ◼   ► the M1 Extreme or M2 Extreme or what have you.

00:17:34 ◼   ► You know, if the point is not simply,

00:17:36 ◼   ► let's put the biggest, both in every sense of the word,

00:17:39 ◼   ► you know, physically biggest, figuratively biggest,

00:17:41 ◼   ► let's put the biggest chip we can in this box.

00:17:44 ◼   ► And other than that, what's the point?

00:17:45 ◼   ► I mean, yeah, you could mount your SSDs

00:17:47 ◼   ► or spinning disks internally, yay, but like what?

00:17:50 ◼   ► I just don't, I don't get it.

00:17:52 ◼   ► I don't get it.

00:17:53 ◼   ► And maybe the answer is exactly what you said earlier, Mike,

00:17:55 ◼   ► that maybe they do make it possible to add extra RAM.

00:17:58 ◼   ► Maybe they do make it possible to add a different GPU

00:18:01 ◼   ► or VRAM or something like that.

00:18:03 ◼   ► But given all the work they've done

00:18:05 ◼   ► to make it all right there

00:18:08 ◼   ► and all the work they've done

00:18:09 ◼   ► to physically put these things close together,

00:18:11 ◼   ► even within the package,

00:18:12 ◼   ► so that there's less space for the information

00:18:16 ◼   ► to travel internally within the chip,

00:18:18 ◼   ► I just, I'm hard pressed to think that's what they would do.

00:18:21 ◼   ► But who knows?

00:18:22 ◼   ► - And just to reiterate, as 9to5Mac said,

00:18:25 ◼   ► maybe this has nothing to do with the Mac Pro at all

00:18:27 ◼   ► it's something to do with the headset.

00:18:29 ◼   ► (laughing)

00:18:30 ◼   ► But who knows?

00:18:32 ◼   ► - The other thing I loved is somebody theorized

00:18:34 ◼   ► it might be a NUC, like a Raspberry Pi

00:18:36 ◼   ► or something equivalent, which would make me very happy

00:18:38 ◼   ► and make me laugh quite a bit.

00:18:40 ◼   ► But there's no way. - That did not make it

00:18:41 ◼   ► into my right up here from around the house.

00:18:43 ◼   ► - I don't buy it at all, but it would be funny.

00:18:45 ◼   ► It would be very funny.

00:18:46 ◼   ► - Ming-Chi Kuo is reporting that the iPhone 15 Pro

00:18:49 ◼   ► will feature an improved LIDAR scanner.

00:18:52 ◼   ► This new model is more power efficient

00:18:53 ◼   ► and could therefore benefit other camera features

00:18:56 ◼   ► of the upcoming iPhones, like night mode or autofocus.

00:19:00 ◼   ► I wanted to test you.

00:19:02 ◼   ► Have you ever knowingly used the LiDAR feature

00:19:05 ◼   ► of your phone?

00:19:06 ◼   ► - So maybe I'll be stretching knowingly

00:19:09 ◼   ► to the breaking point here.

00:19:10 ◼   ► I think yes or at worst, yes asterisk.

00:19:15 ◼   ► So like portrait mode, for example,

00:19:16 ◼   ► to the best of my recollection,

00:19:18 ◼   ► I thought that that used LiDAR in most circumstances as well.

00:19:21 ◼   ► - I probably, and also the camera's already using it

00:19:24 ◼   ► for autofocus and stuff, but that's my point of like,

00:19:28 ◼   ► you don't know, I don't know, and neither do I care.

00:19:31 ◼   ► I'm not like, oh, let me fire up the LIDAR

00:19:33 ◼   ► for this portrait mode, you know?

00:19:35 ◼   ► - Yeah, that's totally fair.

00:19:37 ◼   ► But I think I have a couple of examples where it is knowingly

00:19:40 ◼   ► the Measure app, which I'm pretty sure

00:19:42 ◼   ► is a first party app now, isn't it?

00:19:43 ◼   ► It's an Apple app?

00:19:44 ◼   ► - It always was, yeah.

00:19:45 ◼   ► - Okay, yeah, 'cause I knew that there,

00:19:47 ◼   ► for a few years before Apple embraced it,

00:19:50 ◼   ► I thought that there were some third party ones

00:19:52 ◼   ► that did similar stuff.

00:19:53 ◼   ► stuff and then they developed one when the LIDAR came out I think. There you go.

00:19:57 ◼   ► So the measure app I use it very rarely but I do every great once in a while if

00:20:02 ◼   ► I just want like a thumb in the wind kind of measurement it's not you know

00:20:05 ◼   ► for a complete accuracy I will use the measure app from time to time and then

00:20:10 ◼   ► I've done this a few times mostly it's just an interesting party trick but

00:20:14 ◼   ► there's an app called polycam p-o-l-y-c-a-m I'm sure Michael put a link in

00:20:18 ◼   ► the show notes and that will let you take a 3d scan of a room or a floor of a

00:20:25 ◼   ► house yeah and so as an example I did this some friends of ours just recently

00:20:30 ◼   ► moved within the greater Richmond area and just for you know grins and giggles

00:20:35 ◼   ► while the new house was empty I did the poly cam scan and so on and so forth and

00:20:40 ◼   ► I got a pretty cool 3d scan out of this what would I what either us or the

00:20:45 ◼   ► family that's had moved into the house will do with this 3d scan I have no idea

00:20:48 ◼   ► but it was cool, so we have that.

00:20:50 ◼   ► - It's a fun demo.

00:20:52 ◼   ► - It's a very fun demo, but other than Measure and PolyCam,

00:20:55 ◼   ► I can't think of anything that I have knowingly done

00:20:59 ◼   ► with Lidar, or I guess the three times in my life

00:21:03 ◼   ► that I've done the AR visualization with an Apple product,

00:21:06 ◼   ► like see the Mac Pro in your office,

00:21:08 ◼   ► which I think I tried once just to say, oh, there it is.

00:21:12 ◼   ► - And again, I don't even know if they're using Lidar,

00:21:14 ◼   ► like are they even using Lidar as AR models?

00:21:16 ◼   ► I'm not even sure if they are.

00:21:18 ◼   ► I had assumed so, but you very well could be right.

00:21:19 ◼   ► Are there times that you have done it,

00:21:20 ◼   ► or are you not knowingly using LIDAR at all?

00:21:25 ◼   ► - It's the same thing as you.

00:21:26 ◼   ► I've tried some of these apps that have some kind of like,

00:21:30 ◼   ► "Oh, look at this, you can map out a room

00:21:33 ◼   ► "just to have done it," but I'm not doing it frequently.

00:21:37 ◼   ► I'm sure there are people that are,

00:21:38 ◼   ► but it's not something that I ever really think about.

00:21:41 ◼   ► So on the last episode of "Under School,"

00:21:43 ◼   ► we spoke about some CAD models of the iPhone 14 Pro.

00:21:48 ◼   ► I know you're talking about it on ATP as well.

00:21:51 ◼   ► Well, there was something missing,

00:21:52 ◼   ► which was the iPhone 15 Pro Max,

00:21:54 ◼   ► and 9to5Mac is reporting more information from a CAD model.

00:21:58 ◼   ► This features everything we spoke about on the Pro last time.

00:22:01 ◼   ► So USB-C, thinner bezels,

00:22:04 ◼   ► curve from the display to the body.

00:22:06 ◼   ► So it's the same on the iPhone 15 Pro

00:22:08 ◼   ► as it is on the iPhone 15 Pro Max.

00:22:10 ◼   ► However, on this model,

00:22:12 ◼   ► The thickness of the camera bump has gotten smaller from the 14 Pro Max, along with a

00:22:19 ◼   ► reduction in the overall thickness of the device.

00:22:22 ◼   ► These are both tiny reductions, but the thing that's surprising to me is that the rumours

00:22:26 ◼   ► are talking about periscope camera.

00:22:28 ◼   ► I just expected it would get way larger, but it hasn't.

00:22:33 ◼   ► Maybe you don't need as much.

00:22:36 ◼   ► Maybe one of the reasons I'm thinking aloud right now that the camera keeps getting bigger

00:22:40 ◼   ► is because they need, they could put in a larger optical sensor in there right for the zoom,

00:22:44 ◼   ► because you know we've got like 3x now rather than 2x, but if they go into the periscope maybe they

00:22:49 ◼   ► don't need that amount of space because it's going along inside of the body of the phone anyway.

00:22:53 ◼   ► I don't know. Well see I'm not sure and I say that not as a kind way to disagree with you,

00:22:57 ◼   ► I literally am not sure. My understanding was that the sensor for the 1x camera,

00:23:04 ◼   ► what they previously called the wide camera, was physically largest. And I thought that the

00:23:10 ◼   ► the size of the plateau, as my co-host John Siracusa likes to call it, you know the camera bump,

00:23:15 ◼   ► I thought that that was more about the glass, more about the lenses, than it was about the sensors or

00:23:20 ◼   ► anything like that. And then I got, you know, as you're talking I'm thinking about how is this

00:23:24 ◼   ► periscope thing going to work? And again, if you're not familiar, the theory is, and I guess

00:23:29 ◼   ► this is happening, you would know Mike, this is happening from time to time in android phones.

00:23:32 ◼   ► - It's been happening for years in Android phones.

00:23:34 ◼   ► - Okay, so the idea is, you know,

00:23:37 ◼   ► you have the light come in the lens

00:23:39 ◼   ► in the back of the camera, just like it always would,

00:23:41 ◼   ► but then you reflect it internally within the phone,

00:23:44 ◼   ► you reflect it down the body of the phone,

00:23:46 ◼   ► so that somewhere else you have more physical space

00:23:50 ◼   ► within the body of the phone,

00:23:51 ◼   ► such that you can put like a larger sensor

00:23:53 ◼   ► or something like that.

00:23:55 ◼   ► I have also seen that this periscope idea

00:23:58 ◼   ► seems to be about having an improved zoom.

00:24:01 ◼   ► I think I'd seen somewhere somebody's citing a 6x zoom.

00:24:04 ◼   ► - That's the point of the periscope.

00:24:06 ◼   ► - Yeah, see, but I think I don't understand

00:24:10 ◼   ► why a periscope is necessary for this

00:24:12 ◼   ► because I don't think it's a sensor issue.

00:24:15 ◼   ► I think it's a glass issue, isn't it?

00:24:16 ◼   ► - Yeah, so they put lots of lenses, right?

00:24:20 ◼   ► You have to like stack lots of lenses.

00:24:22 ◼   ► - Sure.

00:24:22 ◼   ► - And so you need vertical space in theory,

00:24:25 ◼   ► like you need physical space.

00:24:27 ◼   ► So to save the camera from getting three times further out

00:24:31 ◼   ► of the phone, they turn it on its side

00:24:33 ◼   ► and put it into the body.

00:24:34 ◼   ► So it's not actually the sensor you need space for,

00:24:37 ◼   ► it's the glass.

00:24:38 ◼   ► And so it has to go somewhere.

00:24:39 ◼   ► So that's why I'm wondering if maybe it's gotten smaller

00:24:42 ◼   ► because they don't need as much glass for the three times

00:24:45 ◼   ► because it isn't three times anymore,

00:24:46 ◼   ► it goes up to five or 10.

00:24:47 ◼   ► Just on this one though, just on this one.

00:24:51 ◼   ► - Can you promise me not to do a victory lap, please?

00:24:56 ◼   ► Can we just be adults about this?

00:24:58 ◼   ► - Oh, well, when I get the great phone and you don't?

00:25:01 ◼   ► - I'm gonna have a bombshell to drop.

00:25:03 ◼   ► - Okay.

00:25:04 ◼   ► - I am, I'm really thinking about the big guy.

00:25:06 ◼   ► - Oh, I think this will be the year to do it.

00:25:08 ◼   ► It's gonna be different again,

00:25:10 ◼   ► and I think it's gonna be different

00:25:11 ◼   ► in ways that could be interesting.

00:25:13 ◼   ► And also you'll give yourself like the ability

00:25:15 ◼   ► to get used to it before they bring out the ultra phone,

00:25:18 ◼   ► and then you've kind of got no choice, right?

00:25:20 ◼   ► (laughing)

00:25:22 ◼   ► - I don't know.

00:25:23 ◼   ► I've always been, I haven't been such a proponent

00:25:26 ◼   ► of smaller phones that I like ever had an SE or a mini

00:25:28 ◼   ► or anything like that.

00:25:29 ◼   ► Even though my word, those small phones feel so good in hand

00:25:33 ◼   ► but I currently have a 14 Pro and I love this phone.

00:25:37 ◼   ► I really, really do.

00:25:38 ◼   ► I am a super fan of the Dynamic Island.

00:25:40 ◼   ► I agree with most people, it hasn't been quite

00:25:43 ◼   ► as revolutionary as we had hoped yet but my goodness,

00:25:45 ◼   ► when it is doing something like a sports score

00:25:48 ◼   ► or a timer or what have you, it is extremely cool

00:25:51 ◼   ► and extremely convenient.

00:25:53 ◼   ► But this phone is already darn big

00:25:55 ◼   ► And at that point, like, is it really

00:25:58 ◼   ► that dramatically different for the super big one?

00:26:03 ◼   ► And if I can get a better zoom, that might be worth it

00:26:07 ◼   ► because I was thinking to myself,

00:26:09 ◼   ► you know, why do I still have my micro four thirds camera?

00:26:12 ◼   ► You know, a quote unquote big camera.

00:26:13 ◼   ► They're small as big cameras go,

00:26:15 ◼   ► but nevertheless, it's still a big camera.

00:26:16 ◼   ► Why do I have it?

00:26:17 ◼   ► Well, I have two lenses for it that I use regularly.

00:26:21 ◼   ► I don't remember the statistics offhand

00:26:22 ◼   ► and honestly it's irrelevant,

00:26:23 ◼   ► but basically one of them is a prime lens,

00:26:25 ◼   ► which means it doesn't zoom in any way.

00:26:27 ◼   ► And so if you need to zoom, you need to move your feet.

00:26:30 ◼   ► And it's a really, really good lens

00:26:31 ◼   ► with a huge wide aperture.

00:26:33 ◼   ► It's like f/1.8, I think, or something like that.

00:26:35 ◼   ► So you can get really good bokeh,

00:26:37 ◼   ► or however you pronounce it.

00:26:38 ◼   ► And I love that lens, but it's only really good,

00:26:42 ◼   ► like outdoors in good light.

00:26:44 ◼   ► You know, inside it can work, but it's not great.

00:26:47 ◼   ► But most times if I'm indoors,

00:26:49 ◼   ► I'm gonna grab my iPhone 'cause the camera's

00:26:51 ◼   ► probably gonna do a better job of taking that picture.

00:26:53 ◼   ► The other lens I have for the Micro Four Third

00:26:55 ◼   ► zoom lens and I forget exactly how deep the zoom goes but just thumb in the

00:26:59 ◼   ► thumb in the air I would say it's like maybe a like a 1x to 5 6x something like

00:27:05 ◼   ► that roughly and so if I can get like a 6x zoom in my phone do I really need to

00:27:12 ◼   ► carry my big camera like really ever and I don't even do it that much now but you

00:27:17 ◼   ► know if we go on like a beach vacation or something like that maybe I'll bring

00:27:20 ◼   ► the big camera and I usually get phenomenal pictures with it but golly I

00:27:24 ◼   ► I would really, really be interested in a big honking

00:27:29 ◼   ► 6X zoom or something like that.

00:27:31 ◼   ► And if I can get a 6X zoom out of my everyday carry phone,

00:27:35 ◼   ► is it worth getting the little bit bigger device?

00:27:38 ◼   ► Meanwhile, as I mentioned, I was at my parents'

00:27:41 ◼   ► this past weekend, and when I wasn't playing

00:27:43 ◼   ► with Dad's new M2 MacBook Air, have you heard about those?

00:27:46 ◼   ► I hear they're good.

00:27:47 ◼   ► So when I wasn't playing with that,

00:27:49 ◼   ► he has a iPhone 13 Pro Max,

00:27:52 ◼   ► and he was carrying on all weekend,

00:27:55 ◼   ► I don't know what brought this on,

00:27:56 ◼   ► but he was carrying on all weekend

00:27:57 ◼   ► about how amazing the battery life is on his phone,

00:28:00 ◼   ► and this was his first Max phone.

00:28:02 ◼   ► I was like, "Well, Dad, these things are related."

00:28:04 ◼   ► Like, the Max has effectively infinite battery,

00:28:07 ◼   ► from what I understand, and again,

00:28:08 ◼   ► jump in when you're ready, Mike,

00:28:09 ◼   ► but the battery is just phenomenal.

00:28:10 ◼   ► And so I'm looking at this big honking battery,

00:28:14 ◼   ► and I'm looking at this big honking Zoom,

00:28:15 ◼   ► and I'm wondering to myself, is this year the year?

00:28:18 ◼   ► I have been so vehemently anti plus phones and max phones,

00:28:22 ◼   ► but I'm really, really wondering

00:28:24 ◼   ► if this year might be the year.

00:28:26 ◼   ► - It should be.

00:28:28 ◼   ► Mark Gerwin is reporting that the upcoming headset

00:28:31 ◼   ► that Apple should be releasing at some point this year

00:28:33 ◼   ► would feature in-air typing as the text input method,

00:28:37 ◼   ► using a combination of both the eye and hand tracking

00:28:40 ◼   ► to make it work effectively.

00:28:41 ◼   ► But this feature has been described as finicky.

00:28:45 ◼   ► - You don't say.

00:28:46 ◼   ► - So there you go.

00:28:48 ◼   ► - Gerwin also states that the headset

00:28:49 ◼   ► will be able to work independently from an iPhone,

00:28:52 ◼   ► including the setup process, if you so choose.

00:28:54 ◼   ► That is good news to me, I think.

00:28:56 ◼   ► I have the concern that it's gonna be like Reality Kit,

00:29:03 ◼   ► you know, rather than an actual OS.

00:29:05 ◼   ► We don't wanna go back to Apple Watch 1.0.

00:29:07 ◼   ► So if they are expecting it to be independent from day one,

00:29:11 ◼   ► that's good news, I think, for the headset.

00:29:14 ◼   ► - Yeah, yeah, I wholeheartedly agree

00:29:16 ◼   ► that independent is the right way to do it.

00:29:18 ◼   ► In the article that you had linked,

00:29:21 ◼   ► the MacRumors post, they had mentioned something

00:29:24 ◼   ► about how maybe a lot of your iCloud data

00:29:27 ◼   ► would be pulled down directly to the device.

00:29:29 ◼   ► Some of the things that you could grab

00:29:30 ◼   ► from your phone, for sure, but the device would just go

00:29:33 ◼   ► and grab it from iCloud, which I think is really smart.

00:29:35 ◼   ► And as more and more of us are turning to Apple One

00:29:39 ◼   ► and whatnot, a lot of our stuff is an iCloud.

00:29:42 ◼   ► So in that sense, it's super convenient.

00:29:45 ◼   ► I'm super skeptical of this just type in the air thing.

00:29:50 ◼   ► Like I don't see that as working

00:29:53 ◼   ► and I'm sure this is where Jason would say,

00:29:55 ◼   ► "I type 130, 160, whatever it is, words per minute."

00:29:58 ◼   ► I don't think I can type 160 words per minute,

00:30:00 ◼   ► says this hypothetical Jason, in the air.

00:30:03 ◼   ► And I'm not as fast as Jason, but I'm pretty quick.

00:30:06 ◼   ► And here again, I don't think I could get that fast

00:30:08 ◼   ► from something that's just relying on my fingers in the air

00:30:11 ◼   ► and a little bit my eyes.

00:30:13 ◼   ► I'm super skeptical, but as with all things Apple,

00:30:16 ◼   ► so often they come out with something

00:30:19 ◼   ► that works way better than we expect,

00:30:21 ◼   ► maybe even to the point that you can shrug off

00:30:24 ◼   ► an error here or there.

00:30:25 ◼   ► And I mean, heck, AutoCorrect has gotten so bad

00:30:27 ◼   ► on the iPhone recently that it's probably no worse

00:30:29 ◼   ► than that at this point.

00:30:32 ◼   ► - Well, I guess that's what they're hoping, right?

00:30:33 ◼   ► That by the time they release this thing,

00:30:35 ◼   ► they will be able to wow some features like that,

00:30:37 ◼   ► like it will just work, trademark.

00:30:40 ◼   ► - Yeah, and also in this article,

00:30:43 ◼   ► I thought there was an interesting little side thing

00:30:46 ◼   ► that they mentioned, I'm reading from the article.

00:30:48 ◼   ► While the first generation model will contain the M2 chip

00:30:51 ◼   ► alongside a secondary chip for AR and VR processing,

00:30:54 ◼   ► come to think of it actually,

00:30:55 ◼   ► I wonder if that's your afterburner

00:30:56 ◼   ► we were talking about earlier,

00:30:57 ◼   ► like having something specific.

00:30:59 ◼   ► You don't think so?

00:31:00 ◼   ► - No, I mean, you know what though, Casey?

00:31:02 ◼   ► Maybe, right?

00:31:04 ◼   ► Like that is an interesting point that you've made up.

00:31:06 ◼   ► It's like some other chip.

00:31:07 ◼   ► Yeah, yes.

00:31:09 ◼   ► So maybe a normal person wouldn't care about it,

00:31:11 ◼   ► but if you're a developer doing work for this headset,

00:31:14 ◼   ► maybe you would want that,

00:31:15 ◼   ► I'm gonna call it an afterburner, but--

00:31:16 ◼   ► - You can offload some stuff.

00:31:18 ◼   ► So you know what, we just fixed it.

00:31:19 ◼   ► That is a full circle, like lasso circle rumor rounder,

00:31:23 ◼   ► where from rumor one to the final rumor,

00:31:26 ◼   ► we actually solved it.

00:31:27 ◼   ► Good one. - Yee-haw.

00:31:28 ◼   ► Anyway, so I'm sorry, going back to this quotation.

00:31:30 ◼   ► So while the first generation model,

00:31:31 ◼   ► we can see in the MT chip

00:31:32 ◼   ► alongside a secondary chip for AR and VR processing,

00:31:34 ◼   ► it is apparently not powerful enough

00:31:35 ◼   ► to output graphics at the level Apple wants.

00:31:37 ◼   ► For example, FaceTime will only support realistic VR representations of just two people at a

00:31:42 ◼   ► time rather than everyone in the conference call with a first generation headset.

00:31:46 ◼   ► I don't know, I just found that very interesting that even with this thing allegedly pending

00:31:53 ◼   ► any minute now, it's still going to be, I'm going to use the word crippled, I think that's

00:31:57 ◼   ► more negative than I intended, but limited is a much better word for it, thank you.

00:32:00 ◼   ► Also not a great word anyway.

00:32:01 ◼   ► But like I- Oh good point, I didn't even think about that,

00:32:03 ◼   ► thank you very much.

00:32:04 ◼   ► That's alright, we point it out, it's language.

00:32:07 ◼   ► This has been referenced before, Mark Gurman was talking about how Apple was working on

00:32:14 ◼   ► some high quality representation of you that wasn't Memoji, which I was surprised about,

00:32:24 ◼   ► but that's for one on one calls and if it's more than two people then it would fall to

00:32:28 ◼   ► Memoji instead.

00:32:30 ◼   ► So that might be again, that's what he's referring to again.

00:32:34 ◼   ► - But that still surprises me,

00:32:35 ◼   ► if like I wish that they would have just found a way

00:32:40 ◼   ► to make it high quality.

00:32:41 ◼   ► So like, or just not bother, like, I don't know.

00:32:45 ◼   ► But I think a lot of this is,

00:32:47 ◼   ► I think the whole point of this device is gonna be like,

00:32:49 ◼   ► hey, this is what we can do now.

00:32:51 ◼   ► We're releasing it now with the idea that by 2025, 2026,

00:32:56 ◼   ► it's gonna be incredible.

00:33:00 ◼   ► - Yeah, yeah.

00:33:01 ◼   ► I mean, I'm super interested to see how this turns out.

00:33:03 ◼   ► I mean, I know I'm not the only one, but I just,

00:33:05 ◼   ► this is so out of left field.

00:33:07 ◼   ► You know, in a way, when we were thinking about the iPad,

00:33:10 ◼   ► it was, okay, it's just gonna be a big phone,

00:33:12 ◼   ► and that's kind of how it's been.

00:33:13 ◼   ► The watch was a little bit more interesting,

00:33:15 ◼   ► like what are they gonna do with that?

00:33:16 ◼   ► But looking at it today, maybe not the original one,

00:33:20 ◼   ► but the watch of today, okay,

00:33:22 ◼   ► it's kind of like a Fitbit, but better.

00:33:24 ◼   ► Yeah, all right, that makes sense.

00:33:25 ◼   ► But with the headset, like, I really just don't know

00:33:29 ◼   ► what they're gonna do with it,

00:33:30 ◼   ► and I'm really excited to see.

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00:35:34 ◼   ► Let's talk about moonshots.

00:35:39 ◼   ► In a pair of reports this week, Mark Gurman spoke about Apple's moonshot team and their

00:35:45 ◼   ► progress on Apple Watch glucose monitoring.

00:35:48 ◼   ► So I'm going to read a bunch of stuff, Casey, and we're going to talk about it.

00:35:52 ◼   ► So this team is called the Exploratory Design Group aka the XDG team.

00:35:58 ◼   ► They are even more secretive than any other design team at Apple.

00:36:03 ◼   ► I'm going to read from Mark Gurman's report.

00:36:07 ◼   ► The team originated several years ago and was long led by Bill Athas, one of the few

00:36:12 ◼   ► people to have had the title of engineering fellow at Apple until he unfortunately passed

00:36:17 ◼   ► away unexpectedly at the end of last year.

00:36:20 ◼   ► Athos was seen by the late co-founder Steve Jobs and current CEO Tim Cook as one of the

00:36:25 ◼   ► brightest engineering minds at the company.

00:36:28 ◼   ► Functionally, this team sits within the hardware technologies group.

00:36:32 ◼   ► So this is the group that's led by Johnny Srouji.

00:36:34 ◼   ► And this is interesting to me, their offices, so the XDG's team's offices are at Apple

00:36:40 ◼   ► Park but outside the ring, they're in one of like the buildings, there's like these

00:36:45 ◼   ► buildings on the outside, right, and they're in one of those, which kind of, they are almost

00:36:50 ◼   ► like a skunkworks project. So they operate kind of if they're a separate entity, they

00:36:55 ◼   ► have this kind of management style, the way that this has been employed for the XGG team.

00:37:00 ◼   ► It means that they don't have to go through the typical rules and bureaucracy that other

00:37:04 ◼   ► teams in Apple might have to go through. So they're less constrained. They're able to,

00:37:07 ◼   ► they've got a lot of money in the team, so they're very heavily funded. And this will

00:37:12 ◼   ► will allow them to more easily think outside of the box.

00:37:14 ◼   ► I kind of think of move fast and break things

00:37:17 ◼   ► as the mentality here, right?

00:37:18 ◼   ► That's kind of the idea of this.

00:37:21 ◼   ► So the XGG team consists of a few hundred people.

00:37:23 ◼   ► This is considered small for a team at Apple

00:37:26 ◼   ► working on any kind of product development.

00:37:28 ◼   ► Like they are apparently significantly smaller

00:37:30 ◼   ► than the team that's working on the car, Project Titan.

00:37:33 ◼   ► So we have become instantly familiar with this team now

00:37:38 ◼   ► because this is due to Mark Gurman reporting

00:37:41 ◼   ► on apparent breakthroughs that the team have made

00:37:44 ◼   ► on a non-invasive glucose monitoring system

00:37:47 ◼   ► for the Apple Watch.

00:37:48 ◼   ► The aim of this technology is to measure glucose levels

00:37:52 ◼   ► in someone's bloodstream without the need to prick a finger

00:37:54 ◼   ► or insert any kind of probes into a person's skin.

00:37:57 ◼   ► These are currently the way that you have to do that.

00:37:59 ◼   ► Like if you have to monitor your glucose levels,

00:38:02 ◼   ► like if you're a diabetic or for other health concerns,

00:38:05 ◼   ► it's inconvenient, painful, just not awesome basically.

00:38:10 ◼   ► Basically. Obviously if Apple are able to do this, which is why they've been working on it for years,

00:38:17 ◼   ► this would improve the lives of diabetics immensely and provide another incredibly

00:38:21 ◼   ► compelling use case for wearing an Apple Watch. I'm nearly at the end of this setup.

00:38:26 ◼   ► So this is how the system works according to Mark Gurman. It uses lasers to emit specific wavelengths

00:38:32 ◼   ► of light into an area below the skin where there is interstitial fluid. I don't like that phrase.

00:38:38 ◼   ► These are substances that leak out of the capillaries.

00:38:41 ◼   ► I don't like that either.

00:38:43 ◼   ► This can be absorbed by glucose.

00:38:45 ◼   ► The light is then reflected back to the sensor

00:38:47 ◼   ► in a way that indicates the concentration of glucose.

00:38:50 ◼   ► An algorithm then determines a person's blood glucose level.

00:38:54 ◼   ► This team has been working on the project for 12 years

00:38:56 ◼   ► and has now entered a proof of concept stage.

00:38:59 ◼   ► The team believe they've made the project viable,

00:39:01 ◼   ► but it needs to be shrunken down

00:39:03 ◼   ► to actually work with an Apple Watch.

00:39:05 ◼   ► Mark Goerman says engineers are working to develop

00:39:08 ◼   ► a prototype device about the size of an iPhone that can be strapped to a person's bicep.

00:39:12 ◼   ► That would be a significant reduction from an early version of the system that sat atop

00:39:16 ◼   ► a table.

00:39:17 ◼   ► This is how this stuff goes, right?

00:39:18 ◼   ► Like it's always huge and massive and they get it smaller and smaller.

00:39:21 ◼   ► So Mark Gurman states that Apple has visions for this system that could warn someone if

00:39:26 ◼   ► they're pre-diabetic, as well as helping them monitor their glucose.

00:39:30 ◼   ► So the way that I've read this too, this seems different.

00:39:35 ◼   ► So if they're gonna go ahead and do this,

00:39:37 ◼   ► I think they will take more of the approach

00:39:40 ◼   ► of the heart monitoring stuff

00:39:42 ◼   ► than the VO2 or the temperature sensors.

00:39:46 ◼   ► So these are like, you know, the VO2 sensor,

00:39:49 ◼   ► you know, the blood oxygen sensor,

00:39:50 ◼   ► the temperature sensor for like ovulation,

00:39:53 ◼   ► like what do they call it?

00:39:55 ◼   ► Retroactive ovulation or something like that.

00:39:57 ◼   ► Where I could just tell you afterwards, yes, you ovulated.

00:40:02 ◼   ► Those two sensors, they're not preventative,

00:40:07 ◼   ► they're not in your face.

00:40:10 ◼   ► You know, it's like the idea of like,

00:40:12 ◼   ► you can't use it to take your temperature

00:40:13 ◼   ► and it can't warn you if, you know,

00:40:16 ◼   ► they could never tie the VO2 sensor to COVID, for example.

00:40:22 ◼   ► These were things, they didn't go through

00:40:23 ◼   ► government health approvals for these,

00:40:25 ◼   ► so they can only be kind of like, hey, you know, maybe.

00:40:29 ◼   ► where the heart stuff is way more in your face, right?

00:40:32 ◼   ► Like something's wrong with you right now.

00:40:34 ◼   ► Or like you can do the full ECG.

00:40:37 ◼   ► To get that to work, Apple have to go to health bodies

00:40:40 ◼   ► in all of the different countries that they're in

00:40:43 ◼   ► and like get the approvals, which is why it's a system

00:40:46 ◼   ► that's rolled out more slowly over time.

00:40:49 ◼   ► I expect if they're gonna do this

00:40:51 ◼   ► with all the time, effort, money they've put into it,

00:40:54 ◼   ► this is the route they're gonna go down.

00:40:56 ◼   ► Because if they're like, "Hey, in the last week,

00:41:00 ◼   ► your glucose might have been a little bit high."

00:41:03 ◼   ► It's kind of not worth it, I feel like.

00:41:05 ◼   ► What they want is the ability to say,

00:41:08 ◼   ► "You are prediabetic," or, "You are spiking right now,"

00:41:11 ◼   ► or, "Your blood sugar's too low."

00:41:13 ◼   ► Because that's when they take the Apple Watch

00:41:17 ◼   ► and double its audience again

00:41:19 ◼   ► because it can now do this other thing.

00:41:22 ◼   ► Now everyone wants them again.

00:41:24 ◼   ► What do you think?

00:41:25 ◼   ► - Yeah, I think you're exactly right

00:41:27 ◼   ► that this would be a, like your heart rate.

00:41:31 ◼   ► Oh, your heart rate's been high for a little while,

00:41:32 ◼   ► you should look into that.

00:41:34 ◼   ► It would be kind of like a, hey, what about this?

00:41:39 ◼   ► - Yeah, something's wrong right now.

00:41:41 ◼   ► - Like, you might wanna check this out.

00:41:43 ◼   ► They're not gonna say, I don't think,

00:41:45 ◼   ► oh, you're pre-diabetic.

00:41:46 ◼   ► They're just gonna say, well, based on trends,

00:41:49 ◼   ► this is looking abnormal, or this is unusual for you.

00:41:53 ◼   ► Do you wanna look at that?

00:41:54 ◼   ► And I think that's, the EKG or ECG, whatever it is,

00:41:58 ◼   ► I think they're more direct about it.

00:42:00 ◼   ► You know, they're very clear to say

00:42:01 ◼   ► this won't detect a heart attack.

00:42:03 ◼   ► Not for heart attacks, just AFib, just AFib.

00:42:05 ◼   ► Not a heart attack.

00:42:06 ◼   ► No, we don't know, we don't know.

00:42:07 ◼   ► Just AFib.

00:42:08 ◼   ► Well, they're very particular about that.

00:42:09 ◼   ► When they introduced the temperature stuff for ovulation

00:42:13 ◼   ► and the blood oxygen stuff, you know,

00:42:15 ◼   ► especially the blood oxygen stuff,

00:42:16 ◼   ► all of us were waiting to be like,

00:42:17 ◼   ► "Okay, so you're gonna warn us when you have COVID, right?"

00:42:19 ◼   ► And they were very clear that that's not what's going on.

00:42:21 ◼   ► This is what you were saying earlier.

00:42:23 ◼   ► It's more about looking at trends

00:42:26 ◼   ► and just noticing if something's different.

00:42:28 ◼   ► And we already see a lot of that in health.

00:42:30 ◼   ► We see it with heart rate.

00:42:30 ◼   ► We see it with walking pace, if I remember correctly.

00:42:34 ◼   ► There's a bunch of other trends in there.

00:42:35 ◼   ► VO2 you had mentioned earlier.

00:42:37 ◼   ► And it seems to me that that's what it would be,

00:42:41 ◼   ► is look, this is trending in a direction

00:42:44 ◼   ► that you may not expect.

00:42:47 ◼   ► Do you wanna take some sort of action on this?

00:42:50 ◼   ► And as David Schaub is saying in the chat,

00:42:52 ◼   ► Nobody ever fired for telling you to ask your doctor

00:42:54 ◼   ► or going to IBM, but nevertheless,

00:42:56 ◼   ► it's not gonna be bad if they just ask you to look into it.

00:43:00 ◼   ► And I suspect that's where this is gonna go.

00:43:03 ◼   ► And as someone who writes software, at least occasionally,

00:43:07 ◼   ► it's a very far cry and the stakes are much lower

00:43:12 ◼   ► if you say, "Hey, look into this,"

00:43:14 ◼   ► rather than, "Oh, your current reading,"

00:43:17 ◼   ► and forgive me, I know nothing about this stuff,

00:43:18 ◼   ► "Your current reading is 100 and it should be 50."

00:43:21 ◼   ► And that is a much more explicit, much more concrete thing.

00:43:25 ◼   ► Or goodness, if you're plugging this into an insulin pump

00:43:29 ◼   ► or something like that, you cannot mess that up.

00:43:32 ◼   ► And I think that's not the normal sort of thing for Apple.

00:43:37 ◼   ► Project Titan, if it's real,

00:43:38 ◼   ► those are things you can't mess up.

00:43:40 ◼   ► But that's about it.

00:43:41 ◼   ► Almost everything else is just, hey, would you look at?

00:43:45 ◼   ► And that's as far as I think this will go.

00:43:47 ◼   ► - Well, Goodman does report that one of Apple's goals

00:43:49 ◼   ► of technology is to create a preventative measure that warns people with their pre-diabetic.

00:43:54 ◼   ► Like that is something they are actively trying to do and their regulatory teams have held

00:43:58 ◼   ► other discussions about getting approvals.

00:44:00 ◼   ► Like they want to do that.

00:44:02 ◼   ► They want, you know, like I know you said, like it seems heavy, but that's what they

00:44:06 ◼   ► want to do.

00:44:07 ◼   ► And I guess they seem to see this similarly to like, we think you're having a heart attack

00:44:12 ◼   ► kind of thing.

00:44:14 ◼   ► And like, I'm not saying this isn't, I believe this is amazing stuff that they're doing,

00:44:19 ◼   ► But again, how great is it for them if they release this

00:44:22 ◼   ► and then a year later they have another of those videos

00:44:24 ◼   ► where seven people were able to change their lives

00:44:28 ◼   ► and avoid diabetes, right?

00:44:30 ◼   ► It's not the reason to do this stuff,

00:44:32 ◼   ► but it's one of the many reasons.

00:44:35 ◼   ► I was listening to you guys talk about this in ATP.

00:44:40 ◼   ► And something Jon was saying was about the cost stuff,

00:44:43 ◼   ► which I just thought was really interesting.

00:44:45 ◼   ► So he was referencing the idea

00:44:47 ◼   ► that they would need to create a cheap,

00:44:48 ◼   ► he feels they would need to create a cheaper model

00:44:51 ◼   ► if they're gonna have this technology,

00:44:53 ◼   ► and I just don't think that's the case at all.

00:44:56 ◼   ► - Yeah, and it's funny you say that

00:44:57 ◼   ► because some of the feedback we've gotten,

00:44:58 ◼   ► which has been tremendous based on that segment,

00:45:02 ◼   ► is a lot of people say, well, particularly Americans saying,

00:45:05 ◼   ► "Look, we're already in an obscene amount of money

00:45:07 ◼   ► "for insulin and supplies and whatnot,

00:45:09 ◼   ► "so what's another shot?"

00:45:12 ◼   ► Well, that's a terrible choice of words, actually,

00:45:14 ◼   ► but what's another dose of another--

00:45:17 ◼   ► - How do you keep using these phrases?

00:45:19 ◼   ► - Oh my gosh, this is going right off the rails.

00:45:21 ◼   ► What's another few hundred bucks gonna do?

00:45:24 ◼   ► - No, wait.

00:45:25 ◼   ► - No, not that either.

00:45:27 ◼   ► Oh man, you're never having me back, are you?

00:45:29 ◼   ► Well, it's been fun.

00:45:30 ◼   ► So anyway, so if it's a few hundred bucks,

00:45:34 ◼   ► even a thousand bucks, like whatever,

00:45:36 ◼   ► if it makes my quality of life that much better,

00:45:38 ◼   ► I will pay infinite money for it.

00:45:40 ◼   ► - And this is like a $400 charge every three years

00:45:45 ◼   ► when you upgrade your watch,

00:45:46 ◼   ► rather than like, I'm gonna pay X amount of money

00:45:50 ◼   ► every month potentially for the medication

00:45:52 ◼   ► that I would need if I wasn't somehow

00:45:55 ◼   ► looking at this information.

00:45:57 ◼   ► And also it's one of those things where

00:46:01 ◼   ► I don't know if I would find,

00:46:04 ◼   ► I don't have any immediate use for this in my life,

00:46:06 ◼   ► I believe, but I don't know that to be the case.

00:46:09 ◼   ► So like for me, it's like, this is just another reason

00:46:12 ◼   ► to wear an Apple watch every day.

00:46:14 ◼   ► I have many reasons where I would much prefer to watch,

00:46:19 ◼   ► sorry, to have like a watch which is a mechanical watch.

00:46:23 ◼   ► That's what I want.

00:46:25 ◼   ► I have a selection of mechanical watches

00:46:27 ◼   ► that I bought over multiple years and I love them,

00:46:29 ◼   ► but I wear the Apple Watch every day

00:46:32 ◼   ► because I like tracking my fitness.

00:46:34 ◼   ► And I wear the Apple Watch every day

00:46:35 ◼   ► for this reason and that reason.

00:46:37 ◼   ► And Apple keeps making that list of reasons

00:46:41 ◼   ► longer and longer and longer.

00:46:44 ◼   ► And that is what they should be doing.

00:46:47 ◼   ► That is the thing.

00:46:48 ◼   ► And this health stuff, it makes it a no brainer.

00:46:52 ◼   ► Also, it kind of in a way, it's like if you have an Apple Watch

00:46:55 ◼   ► or you have the means to get an Apple Watch and you don't,

00:46:59 ◼   ► it almost feels like irresponsible.

00:47:01 ◼   ► - Yeah.

00:47:02 ◼   ► - Because you have the opportunity to have all of these health things in your life monitored.

00:47:08 ◼   ► Right?

00:47:09 ◼   ► Like if I'm ever unfortunate enough to have a heart issue,

00:47:12 ◼   ► I want to be wearing an Apple Watch just to make sure.

00:47:16 ◼   ► I know I have two personal friends

00:47:21 ◼   ► who have potentially had their lives saved

00:47:24 ◼   ► by wearing the Apple Watch for hot stuff.

00:47:27 ◼   ► - It's slowly becoming like a different form of insurance.

00:47:30 ◼   ► Right?

00:47:31 ◼   ► And like fall detection is another example.

00:47:34 ◼   ► Like what if something just catastrophic happens

00:47:36 ◼   ► and you hit the deck and you're unconscious

00:47:38 ◼   ► and your Apple Watch could potentially help you call,

00:47:42 ◼   ► call for help.

00:47:43 ◼   ► I mean, I could agree with you 100%.

00:47:45 ◼   ► And another piece of feedback,

00:47:46 ◼   ► specifically around glucose monitoring,

00:47:47 ◼   ► and this is coming back to what you were saying about health,

00:47:50 ◼   ► we got a few people writing in saying,

00:47:52 ◼   ► "Hey, I am super into health and fitness,

00:47:56 ◼   ► "and it seems,"

00:47:57 ◼   ► I am talking way out of turn right now,

00:47:59 ◼   ► but it seems, just based on the feedback we're getting,

00:48:01 ◼   ► that it's becoming in vogue, from what I can tell,

00:48:04 ◼   ► to have at least some amount of awareness

00:48:06 ◼   ► of what your blood sugar and glucose level is

00:48:10 ◼   ► for the purposes of health.

00:48:11 ◼   ► So these are people with no insulin problems,

00:48:14 ◼   ► no diabetic problems whatsoever,

00:48:16 ◼   ► but they are just trying to pay attention to this

00:48:19 ◼   ► in the same way that a health conscious person

00:48:20 ◼   ► would pay attention to cholesterol or something like that,

00:48:23 ◼   ► just because they want to try to make better decisions

00:48:25 ◼   ► for their body, and they are not in risk currently

00:48:28 ◼   ► of becoming diabetic or anything like that.

00:48:30 ◼   ► They just wanna be healthier, and apparently,

00:48:33 ◼   ► it is becoming, in some circles, kind of useful,

00:48:38 ◼   ► or in vogue, like I said, or interesting,

00:48:40 ◼   ► to try to keep track of this stuff and consider,

00:48:43 ◼   ► oh, well, I just had a sugar bomb.

00:48:45 ◼   ► I had Froot Loops for breakfast or whatever.

00:48:47 ◼   ► Maybe I should have something not so sugary for lunch,

00:48:49 ◼   ► or whatever the case may be.

00:48:51 ◼   ► So yeah, I think that there's a lot here,

00:48:53 ◼   ► even for those of us who are not actively in need of this,

00:48:56 ◼   ► which is exactly what you were saying a minute ago.

00:48:59 ◼   ► - So the Moonshots team as well has been working

00:49:03 ◼   ► on next generation displays.

00:49:04 ◼   ► I expect potentially foldable displays,

00:49:07 ◼   ► AI stuff, headset features for the VR AR headset

00:49:12 ◼   ► that could help people with eye diseases,

00:49:14 ◼   ► as well as low-power processors

00:49:16 ◼   ► and next-generation battery technology.

00:49:18 ◼   ► - Yeah, I mean, you said something about eye diseases,

00:49:22 ◼   ► I'm here for that, 'cause I have a very unusual disease

00:49:25 ◼   ► called keratoconus, which basically, in summary,

00:49:28 ◼   ► means my eyes are trash, and when I wear hard contact lenses,

00:49:31 ◼   ► I actually see pretty well, but it is possible

00:49:34 ◼   ► that one day in my future,

00:49:36 ◼   ► I will need to have a corneal transplant,

00:49:37 ◼   ► which I'm not looking forward to.

00:49:38 ◼   ► So yeah, when you talk about eye diseases,

00:49:40 ◼   ► my ears perk right up and my eyes get even bigger.

00:49:43 ◼   ► I say, tell me more.

00:49:44 ◼   ► I think having a team like this,

00:49:47 ◼   ► it is not surprising that Apple's done it.

00:49:49 ◼   ► It is slightly surprising that this is really the first

00:49:52 ◼   ► that I've heard of it.

00:49:53 ◼   ► I mean, obviously the whole point of this

00:49:55 ◼   ► is to be extraordinarily secretive.

00:49:56 ◼   ► So I mean, I guess it's not that surprising,

00:49:58 ◼   ► but yeah, I think having this moonshot group

00:50:03 ◼   ► is a very smart, very savvy, very reasonable thing to do.

00:50:07 ◼   ► And it's funny because earlier you were reading something

00:50:08 ◼   ► about how having this group kind of be off on its own,

00:50:12 ◼   ► off on an island, some of that is to get rid

00:50:14 ◼   ► of the bureaucracy.

00:50:15 ◼   ► And before I started talking about this stuff for a living,

00:50:19 ◼   ► but I was still interested in Apple,

00:50:21 ◼   ► I had always been told, oh Apple, small team,

00:50:23 ◼   ► small team, small teams, it's a small company,

00:50:25 ◼   ► which at the time, 10 years ago it was, now not so much,

00:50:28 ◼   ► or at least was smaller.

00:50:30 ◼   ► But now over the years I've gotten friendly

00:50:32 ◼   ► with a handful of Apple rank and file engineers

00:50:35 ◼   ► and a few product managers and things like that.

00:50:38 ◼   ► And what's become clear to me,

00:50:40 ◼   ► and I don't know Mike if you feel the same way

00:50:41 ◼   ► 'cause I know you also know a bunch of people on the inside,

00:50:44 ◼   ► what has become clear to me is there's a,

00:50:48 ◼   ► it's a big company, it's like any other big company,

00:50:49 ◼   ► and there's a lot more bureaucracy and red tape

00:50:52 ◼   ► and process than you would expect for a company

00:50:55 ◼   ► that allegedly is move fast and break things.

00:50:59 ◼   ► - Impossible. - And there's a,

00:51:00 ◼   ► it's impossible. - Biggest company

00:51:01 ◼   ► in the world. - A company that size.

00:51:02 ◼   ► - They can't not have it, right?

00:51:04 ◼   ► Like everything that leaves Apple

00:51:06 ◼   ► has to go through a system of checks

00:51:08 ◼   ► to make sure that it's okay for the public, right?

00:51:11 ◼   ► For the millions, billions of people that use their devices.

00:51:15 ◼   ► But this team doesn't have to worry about any of that

00:51:16 ◼   ► because nothing that they do at their stage

00:51:20 ◼   ► reaches the public.

00:51:21 ◼   ► - Right.

00:51:22 ◼   ► - They get done with it, I'm sure,

00:51:23 ◼   ► and pass it on to another team

00:51:25 ◼   ► who will then go ahead and implement it.

00:51:27 ◼   ► So like they are kind of, and should be, like,

00:51:29 ◼   ► freed from some of the checks and balances

00:51:33 ◼   ► that would otherwise be in place.

00:51:35 ◼   ► And I think it makes a lot of sense

00:51:36 ◼   ► for this kind of stuff to happen.

00:51:38 ◼   ► - Definitely, and man, if there is a team

00:51:42 ◼   ► of just superstars at Apple that is basically

00:51:45 ◼   ► given a blank slate and saying, "Go build something cool,"

00:51:48 ◼   ► first of all, how fun would it be to be on that team?

00:51:50 ◼   ► And secondly, I can't wait to, in 30, 40, 50 years,

00:51:54 ◼   ► read the tell-all memoir about what happened

00:51:57 ◼   ► what came out of the XDR or excuse me XDG team because I bet some of the stuff is so

00:52:02 ◼   ► cool.

00:52:03 ◼   ► I'm so pleased that I didn't well from my to my memory never said XDR today convinced

00:52:08 ◼   ► I was gonna say it.

00:52:10 ◼   ► I'm happy that it was you that did it.

00:52:12 ◼   ► I'm here for you Mike.

00:52:14 ◼   ► Always.

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00:54:28 ◼   ► So I know that you are a fan of the segments on upgrade. I know it's just you, you tell

00:54:32 ◼   ► me that you love our segments. And so I thought in honor of having you as a guest on today's

00:54:39 ◼   ► episode, I would create a segment for you.

00:54:42 ◼   ► Oh, I'm excited.

00:54:43 ◼   ► So I haven't got a good name for it yet. I also don't know if it'd be successful, so

00:54:47 ◼   ► who knows if he'll ever come back.

00:54:49 ◼   ► But I'm calling this vibe check slash word association.

00:54:54 ◼   ► - Oh no.

00:54:55 ◼   ► - That's where we are.

00:54:55 ◼   ► So I have 10 words slash phrases

00:55:00 ◼   ► that I'm gonna throw out at you.

00:55:03 ◼   ► - Okay.

00:55:04 ◼   ► - And I want you to give me the first word

00:55:07 ◼   ► that comes into your head for each of them.

00:55:10 ◼   ► - Okay.

00:55:11 ◼   ► - And then for some of the interesting ones,

00:55:13 ◼   ► we're gonna double back on

00:55:14 ◼   ► and I'm gonna probe you a little bit more on them.

00:55:17 ◼   ► But we're not gonna stop and talk about each of them

00:55:19 ◼   ► because then you'll start to fill your brain up

00:55:21 ◼   ► with other words.

00:55:22 ◼   ► And I want the just like pure word association

00:55:26 ◼   ► you're gonna give me, all right?

00:55:27 ◼   ► - Okay, so this is like lightning round

00:55:29 ◼   ► and then we may or may not have a revisit

00:55:32 ◼   ► of some of these in a minute.

00:55:33 ◼   ► - Exactly, so maybe some of them may be more interesting ones

00:55:37 ◼   ► we'll double back on.

00:55:38 ◼   ► Or maybe if there's any that you will wanna take

00:55:40 ◼   ► another crack at, I'll let you double back on them.

00:55:43 ◼   ► Alright, how does that sound? Are you ready for this?

00:55:45 ◼   ► Casey didn't know what I was doing to him today.

00:55:47 ◼   ► No, no I didn't. I am, uh, I'm deeply nervous but I am ready.

00:55:52 ◼   ► My body is ready. Hit me baby one more time.

00:55:56 ◼   ► Alright, clear your brain, alright? You're gonna clear your mind.

00:55:59 ◼   ► I just want you to give me the first word or words, but short sentences at most.

00:56:04 ◼   ► Sure. Okay.

00:56:05 ◼   ► You ready?

00:56:06 ◼   ► Mm-hmm.

00:56:07 ◼   ► Headset.

00:56:08 ◼   ► Silly.

00:56:10 ◼   ► WWDC 2023

00:56:13 ◼   ► I hope I get to go

00:56:15 ◼   ► Apple Watch Ultra

00:56:18 ◼   ► Too big

00:56:20 ◼   ► Mac Pro

00:56:22 ◼   ► That's it, that's all I got

00:56:25 ◼   ► That's perfect

00:56:27 ◼   ► 15" MacBook Air

00:56:29 ◼   ► Also too big

00:56:31 ◼   ► Periscope Lens

00:56:33 ◼   ► I hope not, because I'm gonna be real jealous

00:56:37 ◼   ► Tim Cook

00:56:39 ◼   ► - Uh, getting older.

00:56:42 ◼   ► - App Store.

00:56:44 ◼   ► - Just a total pain in the pine quarters.

00:56:48 ◼   ► - iPad Pro.

00:56:50 ◼   ► - I love it, but I don't know why.

00:56:53 ◼   ► - Apple.

00:56:55 ◼   ► - Getting too big as well, actually.

00:56:59 ◼   ► - This is great.

00:57:00 ◼   ► I actually wanna touch on all of these.

00:57:01 ◼   ► - Sorry, I know I repeated the same thing a couple times.

00:57:03 ◼   ► - No, that's fine.

00:57:04 ◼   ► - Okay. - This is good.

00:57:05 ◼   ► This is good information.

00:57:06 ◼   ► All right, so,

00:57:08 ◼   ► headset then, you think silly.

00:57:11 ◼   ► - Yeah, you know, so here's the thing.

00:57:13 ◼   ► One of the things I love so much about Upgrade,

00:57:15 ◼   ► and something that I've been thinking,

00:57:16 ◼   ► and I've talked to you about it privately a handful of times,

00:57:19 ◼   ► but I've been thinking a lot about,

00:57:21 ◼   ► is I wonder and I'm worried,

00:57:23 ◼   ► and now we're getting into analog territory,

00:57:25 ◼   ► but I wonder and I'm worried

00:57:25 ◼   ► that I'm getting to be too much of a curmudgeon

00:57:28 ◼   ► as I get older.

00:57:29 ◼   ► And I wonder and I worry that I'm not being enthusiastic

00:57:34 ◼   ► or perhaps open enough to new things.

00:57:38 ◼   ► But that being said, the first word that jumped into my head was silly.

00:57:41 ◼   ► And as I think that's because as I said to you before, I just don't get the point.

00:57:45 ◼   ► Like I don't think I'm going to want to cut myself off from the world from the world and put on this

00:57:50 ◼   ► headset probably look like a dummy even though I'll just be in my house and it's just my family

00:57:55 ◼   ► but still. I don't know. Sitting here today not having been sucked into the reality distortion

00:58:01 ◼   ► field, it just seems silly. It seems like they're doing it just because they feel like they should,

00:58:06 ◼   ► not because they have something to say.

00:58:08 ◼   ► But I hope that when the time comes,

00:58:11 ◼   ► I bring an upgrade level of enthusiasm.

00:58:15 ◼   ► I hope I upgrade my enthusiasm, but I'm pshh.

00:58:17 ◼   ► No, but I hope I bring an upgrade level of enthusiasm

00:58:19 ◼   ► to this product because I admire so deeply

00:58:23 ◼   ► that both you and Jason do such a good job

00:58:26 ◼   ► of really just giving everything a chance

00:58:28 ◼   ► and really kicking the tires and seeing if it's for you.

00:58:30 ◼   ► And if it isn't, at least you gave it an honest shake.

00:58:33 ◼   ► And I hope that when the time comes, I do the same.

00:58:35 ◼   ► I'm just choosing optimism, right?

00:58:37 ◼   ► That's kind of where I've decided.

00:58:40 ◼   ► I'm not saying I'm right or wrong,

00:58:41 ◼   ► but because there would be people that are like,

00:58:43 ◼   ► "Oh, you shouldn't just trust that everything they do is going to be great."

00:58:46 ◼   ► And I'm happy to do that because I think I have a long history at this point

00:58:51 ◼   ► of really saying when I don't think something's great.

00:58:54 ◼   ► And so my choice is just like,

00:58:57 ◼   ► I believe this is going to be really interesting and they have something.

00:59:02 ◼   ► I keep saying this, I think they need to and I believe they have the opportunity to have an iPhone, original iPhone like Keynote.

00:59:12 ◼   ► I think it's possible, I really do think it is. And I keep thinking back to when the iPhone was first released, and I forget what phone I had at the time, but when the iPhone was first released, I remember talking to people, not just nerds, people.

00:59:27 ◼   ► and being like, "Oh, are you gonna get a smartphone,

00:59:29 ◼   ► "or are you gonna get an Android,

00:59:31 ◼   ► "or a droid is what they were calling them

00:59:33 ◼   ► "at the time here in America.

00:59:33 ◼   ► "Are you gonna get a droid or maybe an iPhone?"

00:59:35 ◼   ► I was like, "No, why would I want that?

00:59:37 ◼   ► "I don't wanna stick a brick next to my face

00:59:39 ◼   ► "to talk on the phone."

00:59:40 ◼   ► And quickly it was made apparent

00:59:42 ◼   ► that I could not have been more wrong about this.

00:59:44 ◼   ► Like I was just deeply and utterly wrong.

00:59:46 ◼   ► And so here's a time that before I really gave it

00:59:49 ◼   ► an honest crack, my natural reaction was,

00:59:51 ◼   ► "Eh, it's not for me."

00:59:53 ◼   ► And I really want to get better

00:59:55 ◼   ► about choosing optimism, exactly like you said.

00:59:58 ◼   ► And my natural gut reaction was, oh, that's silly,

01:00:02 ◼   ► but I'm really trying very, very hard

01:00:06 ◼   ► to be, at the very least, cautiously optimistic,

01:00:09 ◼   ► if not genuinely enthusiastic.

01:00:12 ◼   ► - So one of the things that made

01:00:13 ◼   ► the original iPhone presentation so good

01:00:17 ◼   ► was the sound of the audience, right?

01:00:20 ◼   ► - Yeah. (laughs)

01:00:21 ◼   ► - So, WWDC 2023.

01:00:24 ◼   ► Is there a possibility here that it's so good they're willing to show it in person live in the keynote rather than a produced video?

01:00:36 ◼   ► Oh I didn't see where you were going with this at first but I do now.

01:00:39 ◼   ► I just had this thought.

01:00:40 ◼   ► You know I think if they really are releasing the headset I could see them doing it.

01:00:48 ◼   ► I'm just now thinking of this.

01:00:50 ◼   ► It wasn't in the show notes so neither of us cheated.

01:00:52 ◼   ► We didn't have a chance to really have a think about it.

01:00:54 ◼   ► I think it is certainly possible because you're exactly right.

01:00:58 ◼   ► Like so much of what made the iPhone keynote so amazing was hearing and to some degree seeing

01:01:05 ◼   ► everyone's reactions to what was happening on stage.

01:01:08 ◼   ► And for better or worse, and I'm not here to get into this conversation,

01:01:12 ◼   ► most of America, from what I can tell, not all, but most of America seems to have come to the conclusion

01:01:18 ◼   ► that COVID is over. I'm not looking to pass judgment one way or the other.

01:01:21 ◼   ► I'm just telling you that's my observation.

01:01:22 ◼   ► And so with that in mind, doubly so if they could do something that's like indoor/outdoor like they did last year,

01:01:29 ◼   ► it wouldn't surprise me if they did perhaps some sort of hybrid presentation where maybe they do an opener live,

01:01:38 ◼   ► they play a bunch of videos and then for the less important segments including maybe even iOS and macOS.

01:01:45 ◼   ► But then perhaps they come back and do a middle portion live or something like that. I don't know.

01:01:51 ◼   ► I mean, I've petitioned this as a question,

01:01:55 ◼   ► but I still don't believe it's the way they're gonna do it,

01:01:57 ◼   ► but it just popped into my mind.

01:01:58 ◼   ► Like for me, WWDC this year,

01:02:00 ◼   ► I think will be a more organized version of 22,

01:02:04 ◼   ► where they do everything they did in 2023,

01:02:08 ◼   ► but with notice of more than a week for most people.

01:02:11 ◼   ► - Yeah, you mean everything they did in 2022, right?

01:02:13 ◼   ► - Yes, so like when they announce it,

01:02:15 ◼   ► which I actually think is probably due

01:02:17 ◼   ► within the next two weeks,

01:02:20 ◼   ► my expectation for when they'll be announcing WWDC's date. It will be with a kind of breakdown

01:02:26 ◼   ► of exactly all those things like you can apply to come and if you do here's the stuff and

01:02:31 ◼   ► they maybe will do a couple more things in the week for the people that come in maybe

01:02:35 ◼   ► like on Tuesday and Wednesday but I don't expect it to be and I you know if we're looking

01:02:41 ◼   ► a spectrum here, that spectrum with WWDC22 and WWDC2019, we are vastly over towards the

01:02:50 ◼   ► 2023 with like a slight kick back up. But like, I don't think they're ever doing this

01:02:55 ◼   ► in the convention center again. And I think most of them are just most likely to do a

01:03:00 ◼   ► little bit of what they did in 2022. But with a little bit more structure and notice. So

01:03:05 ◼   ► I don't think they're going to bring out the headset on stage and do like they're going

01:03:08 ◼   ► to keep doing the videos because also if you've got something which is by all rumors suggesting

01:03:14 ◼   ► still needs a bit more time in the oven, don't show it live when you can show it.

01:03:18 ◼   ► That is a very good point. That is a very, very good point. Yeah, the more we talk about

01:03:22 ◼   ► it, the more I'm convinced that you are correct that it's just going to be like 22 but better

01:03:26 ◼   ► and maybe slightly bigger. But I mean, if they really are confident enough that this

01:03:31 ◼   ► is the real deal in the same way they were with the iPhone, or surely it seemed to me

01:03:35 ◼   ► like they were with the iPhone. I could see them doing it live in person, but yeah, the

01:03:41 ◼   ► more you talk, the more you're convincing me that they probably will just do a repeat.

01:03:45 ◼   ► But what they will probably do is have the ability to let you go and try one on, which

01:03:50 ◼   ► is also funny, right? Like this, but like they can clean it down. They'll find a way

01:03:53 ◼   ► to do it. But that's probably what they're going to do. Alright, so I want to jump a

01:03:57 ◼   ► few ahead because I think I already know how you feel from some of these. For Tim Cook,

01:04:01 ◼   ► you said older.

01:04:03 ◼   ► Getting older, thank you.

01:04:04 ◼   ► or whatever, but I wrote down older in my notes and I think that makes much of a difference.

01:04:08 ◼   ► Tim Cook is 62 years old.

01:04:10 ◼   ► What do you mean by this?

01:04:12 ◼   ► And what do you, well, how are you feeling?

01:04:14 ◼   ► Expand on it a little bit.

01:04:16 ◼   ► How much time do you think we have left with Tim Cook?

01:04:18 ◼   ► I like Tim Cook.

01:04:19 ◼   ► I don't have any particular problem with him.

01:04:21 ◼   ► I think he's made mistakes as any human is going to do.

01:04:24 ◼   ► But on the whole, I think he's done a great job.

01:04:27 ◼   ► I don't think he's been a bad CEO.

01:04:28 ◼   ► Tim Cook is Apple's best CEO.

01:04:29 ◼   ► Like, there's no question in this, right?

01:04:33 ◼   ► by any normal measure he is their best CEO.

01:04:35 ◼   ► Every measure.

01:04:37 ◼   ► Every measure.

01:04:38 ◼   ► I don't know if he could have brought them back from Brink like Jobs did though.

01:04:41 ◼   ► But I don't...

01:04:44 ◼   ► Whatever.

01:04:45 ◼   ► You know what I mean?

01:04:47 ◼   ► I mean yes obviously that was an incredible thing but that was like the one thing that

01:04:53 ◼   ► made Steve Jobs a good CEO.

01:04:55 ◼   ► Like if you look at every other measure Tim Cook is a better CEO.

01:05:00 ◼   ► Yeah yeah I would I would I would say that's correct.

01:05:03 ◼   ► - I mean, when you go down to like charity matching.

01:05:06 ◼   ► - Oh, it's not even questions.

01:05:07 ◼   ► - Right, do you know what I mean?

01:05:08 ◼   ► Like Apple didn't have a policy for charity matching.

01:05:11 ◼   ► And so like all these kinds of little things,

01:05:13 ◼   ► but then also the huge things and like, yeah,

01:05:16 ◼   ► Steve Jobs saved the company from going out of business.

01:05:21 ◼   ► Tim Cook took it to become the most successful company

01:05:24 ◼   ► in all history.

01:05:26 ◼   ► - Yeah, yeah.

01:05:27 ◼   ► - Right, so like that is Steve Jobs' great thing,

01:05:32 ◼   ► and then he was great at product,

01:05:33 ◼   ► but there has been this, I think,

01:05:37 ◼   ► warped thing over time because of Steve Jobs

01:05:39 ◼   ► with the idea that the CEO needs to be the product person.

01:05:43 ◼   ► - Yep.

01:05:44 ◼   ► - But I don't think that's accurate.

01:05:45 ◼   ► - No, certainly. - This is that idea

01:05:47 ◼   ► of now all CEOs believe they should be the ones

01:05:50 ◼   ► standing on stage producing their products.

01:05:52 ◼   ► That was just the Steve Jobs thing.

01:05:54 ◼   ► It's not what a CEO needs to be.

01:05:56 ◼   ► - Yeah, I completely agree with you there.

01:05:57 ◼   ► Yeah, I think you're right.

01:05:58 ◼   ► He probably has been Apple's best CEO.

01:06:01 ◼   ► Again, I like Tim Cook.

01:06:02 ◼   ► I don't have any particular problem with him.

01:06:04 ◼   ► I think the thing that jumped into my mind,

01:06:06 ◼   ► I have no idea why, is he is getting older.

01:06:10 ◼   ► He's by no means old, but he's getting older.

01:06:13 ◼   ► And what did you say, 62, something like that?

01:06:15 ◼   ► - 62, yeah.

01:06:16 ◼   ► - He strikes me as the kind of person,

01:06:21 ◼   ► having interacted with him once

01:06:22 ◼   ► at the Brooklyn Apple Store for literally 15 seconds,

01:06:26 ◼   ► he strikes me as the kind of person

01:06:29 ◼   ► that would get to the point where he said, "I'm good. Not in a bad way, not in a nasty way,

01:06:34 ◼   ► not in any particular way. Just, 'I'm good. I've accomplished what I wanted to accomplish.

01:06:40 ◼   ► I'm good now.'" And I feel like that could happen at any point. Now, he seems like the kind of

01:06:46 ◼   ► person that will have quite the plan around it. Like, he will have all of his T's crossed,

01:06:52 ◼   ► all of his I's dotted, but that sort of thing would happen internally. Like, we wouldn't

01:06:57 ◼   ► necessarily get wind of that. And especially since it would presumably be

01:07:00 ◼   ► happening mostly within the C-suite, right? You know, like I don't know that

01:07:04 ◼   ► anyone outside the the chosen few at Apple would necessarily need to know

01:07:07 ◼   ► about a succession plan or whatever the case may be.

01:07:10 ◼   ► Unless they're in it.

01:07:11 ◼   ► Right, that's my point. The C-suite and whoever else may be affected might need to know.

01:07:17 ◼   ► I believe at his level, you know, once it becomes serious he would have to talk to the

01:07:22 ◼   ► Security and Exchange Commission and so on and so forth, so there will come a

01:07:24 ◼   ► time that he would have to make a formal announcement if he's looking to retire but I just I just

01:07:29 ◼   ► feel like that time is coming and coming sooner rather than later I think well I mean it was

01:07:34 ◼   ► on a timeline right like it's it's closer than it's ever been because it will happen

01:07:38 ◼   ► I I from everything that we've read about him in books and stuff I don't think he's

01:07:47 ◼   ► will plan to retire until we literally can't do it anymore whether he's told to go or yeah

01:07:54 ◼   ► That the only real account that we have of him is the is that book that we read right

01:07:58 ◼   ► what is the name of the book?

01:08:00 ◼   ► The Trip Meikle one?

01:08:01 ◼   ► Yeah the Trip Meikle one and that Trip Meikle book indicated all he does and all he cares

01:08:06 ◼   ► about is his job like he has nothing else that he does and like I don't think that that

01:08:12 ◼   ► is a criticism I mean honestly in his position like isn't it better to feel that way like

01:08:20 ◼   ► if you're the CEO of Apple that is your entire life no matter what you want right?

01:08:24 ◼   ► - Yeah, yeah, yeah.

01:08:24 ◼   ► - Like realistically, how could you,

01:08:27 ◼   ► you can't get away from your job

01:08:28 ◼   ► because you're always, there's always something going on.

01:08:33 ◼   ► Like you are like politician level of needed, right?

01:08:38 ◼   ► - Yep.

01:08:39 ◼   ► - Like you can never be like, all right gang,

01:08:41 ◼   ► I'm gonna take a week off, nobody call me.

01:08:44 ◼   ► This is not gonna happen, right?

01:08:45 ◼   ► So if you are the type of person that like you live for that,

01:08:50 ◼   ► great, like you are now the right person for this job

01:08:53 ◼   ► because you're gonna be able to handle it better than other people, I think.

01:08:56 ◼   ► Yeah, I agree with everything you said, but didn't we see...

01:08:59 ◼   ► Like, wasn't there a news article like six months, maybe a year ago,

01:09:01 ◼   ► where he said he's gonna be out in the next five to ten years or something like that,

01:09:04 ◼   ► or am I making that up?

01:09:05 ◼   ► Yeah, he said something along the lines of like,

01:09:10 ◼   ► someone asked him, "When are you gonna retire?"

01:09:13 ◼   ► and he said that he didn't imagine it being even five years, or something like that.

01:09:17 ◼   ► Yeah, I know what you're talking about, but I don't know.

01:09:22 ◼   ► I mean, I agree, like we were talking about earlier,

01:09:25 ◼   ► I see both sides of this coin, right?

01:09:27 ◼   ► Like on the one side, he has poured a significant portion

01:09:30 ◼   ► of his life into Apple, and he strikes me as a man

01:09:34 ◼   ► who wants to make a difference in good ways and in,

01:09:38 ◼   ► not bad, but different, in capitalistic ways.

01:09:40 ◼   ► I think he wants to make a difference with social,

01:09:45 ◼   ► with the rights of LGBTQA+ people.

01:09:50 ◼   ► He wants to make a difference with the environment.

01:09:51 ◼   ► He wants to make a difference socially.

01:09:53 ◼   ► He also wants to make a difference by making a,

01:09:56 ◼   ► by helping build a company that makes products

01:09:59 ◼   ► that makes our lives better, we think.

01:10:02 ◼   ► So I think he wants to make a difference,

01:10:03 ◼   ► and obviously the best way to do that, one would think,

01:10:05 ◼   ► would be to be at the helm of the good ship Apple.

01:10:08 ◼   ► But there's no reason he couldn't take

01:10:10 ◼   ► what I would assume to be his considerable wealth

01:10:12 ◼   ► and pour that into charity like Gates did,

01:10:15 ◼   ► although it's unclear to me whether or not

01:10:17 ◼   ► Gates was particularly successful at it.

01:10:19 ◼   ► I genuinely have no idea.

01:10:20 ◼   ► I don't know that about Tim Cook.

01:10:23 ◼   ► Like, I've never gotten any sense from him

01:10:27 ◼   ► that he does things philanthropic.

01:10:31 ◼   ► Like, he seems to do good via his role in Apple.

01:10:34 ◼   ► Like, I don't think it's clear to say

01:10:36 ◼   ► that he's gonna join the wealth pledge.

01:10:39 ◼   ► He could have done that already.

01:10:41 ◼   ► He doesn't need to have retired before he does that.

01:10:43 ◼   ► - Yeah, that's a very good point.

01:10:44 ◼   ► I don't know, he's just,

01:10:46 ◼   ► he strikes me as a reasonably decent and nice guy

01:10:50 ◼   ► who I think, I guess I just want him to have more to his life than just Apple,

01:10:55 ◼   ► and maybe he doesn't, maybe that is his life, but I don't know, I just I get this,

01:10:58 ◼   ► I get this the vibe check, the vibe is that he is slowly on his way out. I can't

01:11:04 ◼   ► really justify that in any concrete way, it's just the vibe I get is that he is

01:11:09 ◼   ► slowly meandering on out. And last one I want to talk about is Apple too big.

01:11:16 ◼   ► Yeah, I mean, obviously, you know, my job, nominally, is to be enthusiastic about Apple and Apple-related things.

01:11:25 ◼   ► I don't know, I don't think it's bad for Apple to be as big as it is necessarily, but

01:11:30 ◼   ► I've gotten the feeling in the last year or two that they have reached a size that has either brought--

01:11:41 ◼   ► It has come with a level of hubris that I think I'm getting uncomfortable with.

01:11:48 ◼   ► Like what's going on with the app store and regulation in several different countries around the world

01:11:54 ◼   ► where Apple has had every opportunity to rein themselves in.

01:12:00 ◼   ► They've had every opportunity to make a concession here or there.

01:12:03 ◼   ► And given that it's Apple, you know, dummies like me would cheer from the streets

01:12:10 ◼   ► and from the rooftops and say,

01:12:11 ◼   ► "Oh, look at what Apple did, they're so kind to us.

01:12:13 ◼   ► "Oh, they did this extremely tiny thing

01:12:16 ◼   ► "that really doesn't matter in the grand scheme of things.

01:12:17 ◼   ► "Oh, that was so kind, it's so much better now."

01:12:20 ◼   ► And they haven't done it.

01:12:22 ◼   ► They're just marching down this road of,

01:12:24 ◼   ► we know best, everyone else is a dummy,

01:12:27 ◼   ► nobody should listen to anyone but us.

01:12:29 ◼   ► And I just, I don't love that.

01:12:32 ◼   ► I don't love that at all.

01:12:33 ◼   ► And I think that's always to some degree been the case,

01:12:36 ◼   ► especially around the App Store

01:12:38 ◼   ► and the butterfly keyboard for that matter, but I don't know. I just feel like maybe I'm just

01:12:43 ◼   ► having less tolerance for it and I'm misconstruing it as Apple being too big and maybe the problem is

01:12:48 ◼   ► inside the house so to speak, but I don't know. It just feels like they're getting a little big

01:12:57 ◼   ► for their britches and I don't love that feeling. Does that make any sense at all?

01:13:01 ◼   ► Well I mean at the point where they're brought into courts around the world for having two

01:13:08 ◼   ► large of a market and put in a stranglehold on it.

01:13:11 ◼   ► I think that would indicate that you're too big, yeah.

01:13:14 ◼   ► - Exactly.

01:13:15 ◼   ► I don't know, I'm getting a little nervous that,

01:13:18 ◼   ► you know, are we the baddies is starting to happen,

01:13:20 ◼   ► like for real this time.

01:13:22 ◼   ► - Well, I mean, that's interesting how it plays

01:13:24 ◼   ► into what you're just talking about with Tim Cook, right?

01:13:26 ◼   ► - Yeah, exactly.

01:13:27 ◼   ► It's because of Tim Cook.

01:13:29 ◼   ► Well, I don't love this whole everything is the CEO's fault

01:13:33 ◼   ► thing that all of us can do from time to time,

01:13:35 ◼   ► and I just did it just a second ago.

01:13:38 ◼   ► - But eventually the buck stalks with him.

01:13:40 ◼   ► - When it gets to a certain point, right,

01:13:41 ◼   ► so like a lot of this stuff around antitrust,

01:13:43 ◼   ► and he has the ability to steer the company

01:13:47 ◼   ► in a different direction if he thinks that it's wrong.

01:13:51 ◼   ► - Yeah, exactly.

01:13:52 ◼   ► - And that's not happening.

01:13:53 ◼   ► - That's not happening.

01:13:54 ◼   ► Yep, that's what I got.

01:13:57 ◼   ► - How did you enjoy your segment?

01:13:59 ◼   ► Did you like it?

01:14:01 ◼   ► - It was very stressful, but I enjoyed it.

01:14:03 ◼   ► Yeah, I'm not sure.

01:14:07 ◼   ► I don't love my answers because I really tried to play honest.

01:14:10 ◼   ► I really tried to come up with the first thing that, you know, say the first thing that came

01:14:13 ◼   ► to mind.

01:14:14 ◼   ► But I don't know.

01:14:16 ◼   ► If I'm ever lucky enough to come back, let's do it again.

01:14:18 ◼   ► Even if you don't do it any other time, let's do it again.

01:14:20 ◼   ► Let's see if I do a little better.

01:14:21 ◼   ► I especially feel guilty.

01:14:22 ◼   ► I repeated the same thing like two or three times, but you know, what are you going to

01:14:25 ◼   ► do?

01:14:26 ◼   ► I mean, if it makes you feel any better, you could ask me them.

01:14:30 ◼   ► That's true.

01:14:31 ◼   ► So you can get me on the record if you want?

01:14:33 ◼   ► Yeah.

01:14:34 ◼   ► Well, okay.

01:14:35 ◼   ► So do we have the time for this game?

01:14:37 ◼   ► 'Cause I'm happy to play this game.

01:14:38 ◼   ► - We don't have to dig into them.

01:14:39 ◼   ► I can just give you the words.

01:14:41 ◼   ► 'Cause I think if anything, it's the words that you feel

01:14:44 ◼   ► like, "Oh, did I reuse the right words?

01:14:46 ◼   ► "Did I say the wrong words?"

01:14:47 ◼   ► Well now you can get me on the record and then--

01:14:49 ◼   ► - Oh, I love this.

01:14:50 ◼   ► See, this is why you're such a professional podcasters.

01:14:52 ◼   ► - What can I say?

01:14:53 ◼   ► - This is good.

01:14:54 ◼   ► - So you've got the words here, right?

01:14:55 ◼   ► So you can, I'm not gonna look at them

01:14:57 ◼   ► and now you can just--

01:14:57 ◼   ► - Yeah, I was gonna say, look away from the show notes

01:15:01 ◼   ► because I'm gonna just jump around

01:15:02 ◼   ► and if you see my cursor, it's gonna be obvious.

01:15:04 ◼   ► - All right.

01:15:05 ◼   ► 15 inch MacBook Air.

01:15:07 ◼   ► - Exciting.

01:15:07 ◼   ► - That's the most mic answers,

01:15:10 ◼   ► this is what I was talking about.

01:15:10 ◼   ► That's such a good mic answer.

01:15:12 ◼   ► Dub dub 2023.

01:15:14 ◼   ► - The same.

01:15:16 ◼   ► - Okay, Mac Pro.

01:15:17 ◼   ► - Smack Studio.

01:15:19 ◼   ► - Sick burn.

01:15:23 ◼   ► iPad Pro.

01:15:24 ◼   ► - Snooze Fest.

01:15:25 ◼   ► - Ooh, that is an even sicker burn.

01:15:29 ◼   ► Now we're getting aggressive.

01:15:30 ◼   ► Periscope lens.

01:15:31 ◼   ► - Give it.

01:15:33 ◼   ► - Oh yeah, no.

01:15:34 ◼   ► I don't want it because I'm gonna be so jealous.

01:15:36 ◼   ► App Store.

01:15:37 ◼   ► - Monopoly.

01:15:39 ◼   ► - That's the truth right there.

01:15:42 ◼   ► Tim Cook.

01:15:42 ◼   ► - Influential.

01:15:46 ◼   ► - No, I'll allow it.

01:15:48 ◼   ► Headset.

01:15:49 ◼   ► - I was gonna say exciting again, so I'll just be like,

01:15:53 ◼   ► New Dawn or something like that, we'll go with that.

01:15:55 ◼   ► - Okay, all right, that's fair.

01:15:56 ◼   ► Apple Watch Ultra.

01:15:57 ◼   ► - Tantalizing?

01:16:02 ◼   ► And then I believe this is the last one, Apple.

01:16:04 ◼   ► - Monopoly.

01:16:06 ◼   ► (laughing)

01:16:08 ◼   ► I mean, I don't know what to say, it's how I feel.

01:16:10 ◼   ► I think the App Store is,

01:16:15 ◼   ► that they have too tight control over it

01:16:17 ◼   ► and they're doing things that don't make any sense to me

01:16:19 ◼   ► and it's just gonna be a problem for them.

01:16:22 ◼   ► And so really, the App Store is Apple,

01:16:26 ◼   ► Apple is the App Store.

01:16:29 ◼   ► That for some, like, the app store is like this perfect

01:16:33 ◼   ► market cosm, if like, if Apple had its way,

01:16:35 ◼   ► this is how it would do everything.

01:16:37 ◼   ► - That's a good point, that's a very good point.

01:16:39 ◼   ► - If Apple had its way, they would only sell their products

01:16:42 ◼   ► in their own stores, right, their own retail stores,

01:16:45 ◼   ► they would never sell them outside.

01:16:46 ◼   ► They would put the prices up even further

01:16:48 ◼   ► if the market wouldn't, if only they could control

01:16:52 ◼   ► the entire market, like, this is how they would do it,

01:16:55 ◼   ► Right?

01:16:56 ◼   ► But unfortunately, they had to inherit the retail

01:17:01 ◼   ► and being in retail and selling products

01:17:04 ◼   ► before they could create their own market.

01:17:06 ◼   ► - Yep, that is such a excellent way of looking at it

01:17:10 ◼   ► and I could not possibly agree with you more.

01:17:12 ◼   ► Like if they had their druthers,

01:17:14 ◼   ► if such a thing were really possible,

01:17:15 ◼   ► this is exactly how they would do everything.

01:17:18 ◼   ► And I agree.

01:17:18 ◼   ► And that just feels gross to me

01:17:20 ◼   ► because I don't agree with the way

01:17:22 ◼   ► they're handling the App Store.

01:17:23 ◼   ► - Well.

01:17:25 ◼   ► they're not gonna be able to do it forever.

01:17:26 ◼   ► It's just gonna be how they go down,

01:17:28 ◼   ► or if they go down kicking and screaming.

01:17:30 ◼   ► - Yep, couldn't agree more.

01:17:31 ◼   ► That was fun, I enjoyed that.

01:17:33 ◼   ► It's much easier on this side of the table.

01:17:35 ◼   ► I appreciate you being willing to trade places

01:17:38 ◼   ► with me for a moment.

01:17:39 ◼   ► - Anytime.

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01:19:23 ◼   ► Relay FM.

01:19:24 ◼   ► It's time for some Ask Casey Questions.

01:19:28 ◼   ► I wonder what form they would take. The first one comes from John who says

01:19:35 ◼   ► Casey is a noted fan of sporty cars with manual transmissions, but the future is electric.

01:19:42 ◼   ► When does he see himself moving to an electric car? Would he still prioritise the sporty

01:19:45 ◼   ► driving experience or what other factors matter more? Or if you had to buy an EV today, which

01:19:50 ◼   ► one would you pick and why?

01:19:53 ◼   ► You know, I tie up more of my personal identity with my car than I should, but it's something

01:20:00 ◼   ► I've been thinking about a lot, especially as now we're starting to get options that

01:20:03 ◼   ► are at least in the vicinity of affordable that are not made by Tesla. I think my next

01:20:11 ◼   ► This car will be an electric car.

01:20:14 ◼   ► I've talked to Erin about this and she is 100% on board.

01:20:17 ◼   ► - I mean, depending on when you buy it,

01:20:19 ◼   ► if you want a new car, you won't have many choices.

01:20:21 ◼   ► - Well, that's true and that's exactly

01:20:23 ◼   ► what I was gonna say actually is that my current car,

01:20:25 ◼   ► it's a 2018 model year.

01:20:27 ◼   ► It's a Volkswagen Golf R for what it's worth.

01:20:30 ◼   ► It is a six-speed manual transmission.

01:20:33 ◼   ► It only has like 20,000 miles on it.

01:20:35 ◼   ► I put very few miles on my car.

01:20:37 ◼   ► And so I don't expect to need a new car

01:20:40 ◼   ► probably three to six years, but that being said, if something happened to the

01:20:46 ◼   ► car where it got like totaled or something like that, what would I get?

01:20:48 ◼   ► Well, the first thing I'll probably look at is are there any good replacements

01:20:52 ◼   ► for my car? There is a brand new version of my car, the Volkswagen Go Far. It's

01:20:58 ◼   ► still available with a stick surprisingly, but my understanding is

01:21:01 ◼   ► the interior is garbage and there's not a lot else that's available that's kind

01:21:05 ◼   ► of sporty and also has four doors and also isn't a hundred plus thousand dollars that also has you

01:21:11 ◼   ► know a six-speed transmission and so that leaves leads me to electric so if i were to do it today

01:21:16 ◼   ► i think i would try to find a kia ev6 gt so the kia ev6 is the same as the hyundai ionic

01:21:24 ◼   ► ionic 5 i believe i think i have that right um and it is basically a kind of a crossover

01:21:31 ◼   ► hatchback-y sort of thing, but the EV6 GT specifically is like an all-wheel

01:21:37 ◼   ► drive, you know, we'll sacrifice range for ridiculous speed sort of version of the

01:21:42 ◼   ► EV6. 0 to 60 in 3.2 seconds which is like a almost double as fast as my

01:21:48 ◼   ► car today and my car today is not slow. So I would probably do that but I would

01:21:52 ◼   ► also take a look at the Ford Mustang Mach-E. I don't love the fact that it's

01:21:56 ◼   ► a Mustang like it doesn't offend me but it seems silly but I did drive one very very very briefly

01:22:03 ◼   ► a couple of years ago and I loved it I was surprised how much I enjoyed it so I would take

01:22:08 ◼   ► a look at both of those if I were to buy today they're both they both appear to be very very

01:22:12 ◼   ► good cars. Joe asks if you were suddenly in charge of developer relations at Apple in addition to

01:22:18 ◼   ► improved documentation which you've written about before what other changes would you make? The first

01:22:24 ◼   ► The first thing I would do is I would burn Feedback Assistant.

01:22:27 ◼   ► I would burn it with the fire of a thousand suns.

01:22:30 ◼   ► Gosh, do I really dislike, you know,

01:22:33 ◼   ► we have two small kids at home,

01:22:34 ◼   ► and we've been trying not to use the word hate,

01:22:37 ◼   ► and we've come to the conclusion that

01:22:38 ◼   ► if you think you hate something,

01:22:40 ◼   ► the correct phrasing is, "I'm still learning to like it."

01:22:43 ◼   ► So let's just say,

01:22:44 ◼   ► "I'm still learning to like Feedback Assistant."

01:22:46 ◼   ► - Is there like a kids' TV show

01:22:47 ◼   ► that taught you this phrasing or something?

01:22:49 ◼   ► - I don't think so.

01:22:50 ◼   ► This was Erin that came up with this.

01:22:51 ◼   ► - Okay, that's really good.

01:22:51 ◼   ► - I don't know where that came from.

01:22:53 ◼   ► I think that maybe she found it somewhere, I don't know.

01:22:55 ◼   ► I thought it was an original composition, but yes,

01:22:57 ◼   ► I'm still learning to like Feedback Assistant.

01:22:59 ◼   ► In the defense of Apple,

01:23:00 ◼   ► their documentation has gotten better,

01:23:03 ◼   ► but it turns out when you're in a desert

01:23:05 ◼   ► and you haven't had water in three days,

01:23:08 ◼   ► even the world's crappiest water

01:23:10 ◼   ► is still better than nothing.

01:23:12 ◼   ► So yeah, I would absolutely improve documentation.

01:23:14 ◼   ► I personally would make some amount of documentation

01:23:18 ◼   ► a requirement for shipping an API.

01:23:21 ◼   ► So you as a developer at Apple,

01:23:24 ◼   ► working on Swift UI or something like that,

01:23:26 ◼   ► you cannot release your new Swift UI code as Apple,

01:23:30 ◼   ► unless you provide documentation for that code, period.

01:23:33 ◼   ► No exceptions.

01:23:34 ◼   ► - I'm not, I don't understand how to do any of this stuff,

01:23:38 ◼   ► but that does seem like a,

01:23:40 ◼   ► just a bare minimum thing to do.

01:23:43 ◼   ► - You would think.

01:23:44 ◼   ► - You should be able to, if you want people to use it,

01:23:47 ◼   ► tell people how to use it.

01:23:49 ◼   ► - Right? - Like I agree with you.

01:23:50 ◼   ► I'm doing the Steve Carell, smack the desk, thank you,

01:23:53 ◼   ► right motion right now, because that's so true.

01:23:55 ◼   ► And then the other thing I would really love,

01:23:57 ◼   ► which I think, again, to Apple's credit,

01:24:00 ◼   ► they've been getting better about this,

01:24:02 ◼   ► but I still think they have a long way to go,

01:24:04 ◼   ► is I would love to have more frequent access

01:24:06 ◼   ► to internal developers, or maybe even product managers.

01:24:10 ◼   ► They've been doing these things on Slack

01:24:11 ◼   ► for like a week at a time, once or twice a quarter,

01:24:15 ◼   ► which are okay, and that gives people access

01:24:18 ◼   ► to their internal team to some degree.

01:24:20 ◼   ► It's one of those like, oh, throw a question over the wall

01:24:23 ◼   ► and you'll see if they answer it sort of things.

01:24:26 ◼   ► That's an improvement, but it would be,

01:24:28 ◼   ► and gosh, I don't know how they would make this work,

01:24:30 ◼   ► but it would be cool if I could get the attention

01:24:34 ◼   ► of an internal developer or do a better job

01:24:37 ◼   ► of singling out, I would love this team

01:24:40 ◼   ► to answer this question, and maybe they wouldn't,

01:24:42 ◼   ► and I understand that this has a trillion

01:24:43 ◼   ► different problems. - It's too many questions.

01:24:45 ◼   ► - Exactly, no, it's too many, it's too much.

01:24:47 ◼   ► There's a million reasons why this wouldn't work,

01:24:49 ◼   ► But if I was waving my magic wand,

01:24:52 ◼   ► I would love to have some way somehow

01:24:53 ◼   ► more frequent access to internal developers or PMs.

01:24:56 ◼   ► - Apple, I got it.

01:24:57 ◼   ► This is, Tim, I'm speaking straight to you right now.

01:25:00 ◼   ► We'll call it Developer Plus.

01:25:02 ◼   ► - No, no, please no.

01:25:03 ◼   ► - Pay $150 a month and you get the ability to ask questions.

01:25:08 ◼   ► Come on, just make it happen.

01:25:09 ◼   ► It's what Casey wants.

01:25:10 ◼   ► - To save you some feedback, there are things,

01:25:13 ◼   ► oh gosh, what are they called?

01:25:14 ◼   ► They're like instants or something?

01:25:15 ◼   ► I forget the term for it.

01:25:16 ◼   ► - Yeah, you get tickets, right,

01:25:17 ◼   ► you can raise a couple of them a year.

01:25:19 ◼   ► - Exactly right.

01:25:20 ◼   ► That I think it's, you get a couple of freebies

01:25:22 ◼   ► and then I think it is actually,

01:25:24 ◼   ► I'm doing major air quotes here,

01:25:26 ◼   ► only $100 after that per ticket.

01:25:28 ◼   ► But you can throw something,

01:25:30 ◼   ► what is it, a technical support instant or something like that?

01:25:33 ◼   ► I can't remember the name of the darn thing.

01:25:35 ◼   ► But you can throw something over the wall

01:25:37 ◼   ► and allegedly and ostensibly,

01:25:40 ◼   ► they will actually pay attention to it,

01:25:43 ◼   ► which is different than feedback assistant.

01:25:44 ◼   ► So I do need to avail myself of this from time to time.

01:25:47 ◼   ► In fact, now that I'm thinking about this,

01:25:49 ◼   ► I'm working on something new

01:25:51 ◼   ► that I could totally use one of these incidents

01:25:54 ◼   ► on something I'm fighting in that new project.

01:25:56 ◼   ► So maybe I should do that now that I think about it.

01:25:59 ◼   ► -I had an e-mail the other day

01:26:01 ◼   ► about a feedback that I'd raised.

01:26:05 ◼   ► "Changes have been released

01:26:07 ◼   ► that should have addressed this report.

01:26:08 ◼   ► Could you please confirm that the behavior

01:26:10 ◼   ► is working as intended?

01:26:11 ◼   ► "Feedback ID FB8822070, enabling assistive touch

01:26:16 ◼   ► "changes the size of the iPad OS pointer."

01:26:19 ◼   ► This was maybe 2018, I read this,

01:26:23 ◼   ► and it was fixed in 2018, like I don't know why now.

01:26:28 ◼   ► - Wasn't this what you and Grey were talking about

01:26:29 ◼   ► for a long time?

01:26:30 ◼   ► - No, this was, do you remember before they released

01:26:36 ◼   ► the Magic Trackpad, the iOS version as Magic Trackpad,

01:26:39 ◼   ► there was the ability to have a cursor connected, right?

01:26:43 ◼   ► And this was a bug that I found where for some reason

01:26:47 ◼   ► the cursor size was changing a bunch.

01:26:50 ◼   ► - Oh, okay.

01:26:51 ◼   ► - I don't remember.

01:26:52 ◼   ► I'm seeing if I'm trying to log in now

01:26:54 ◼   ► to see if I can find my feedback that I raised,

01:26:57 ◼   ► which is, let's say it's actually quite complicated

01:27:00 ◼   ► to find, excuse me, whatever, of course it is.

01:27:03 ◼   ► iOS 14.3.

01:27:07 ◼   ► - Goodness.

01:27:09 ◼   ► a few minutes ago. Yeah it was some time ago so it taken a-- oh this was from October 2020

01:27:15 ◼   ► that I erased that so maybe it was something with the trackpad. When assisted touch is enabled the

01:27:20 ◼   ► cursor immediately switches to maximum size it no longer accepts the size that is set elsewhere in

01:27:25 ◼   ► settings is what I said. It's taken them nearly three-- it's two and a half years to get back to me.

01:27:32 ◼   ► Yeah I mean they must receive just a mind-boggling amount of feedback so I do as much as I

01:27:38 ◼   ► grumble and complain, I do empathize with what they're fighting, but at the same time,

01:27:43 ◼   ► like, this is your job is to manage these sorts of things and figure out a way that works for both of us.

01:27:50 ◼   ► But like, I am a known feedback hater, you know, I'm always hating on the feedback and like,

01:27:54 ◼   ► what I've just given you there is one of my reasons of like, I raised this so long ago and it was

01:27:58 ◼   ► fixed so long ago, but it almost feels like it had nothing to do with the thing that I raised, right?

01:28:03 ◼   ► Yeah, totally.

01:28:04 ◼   ► So like, you know, it's just like, I'm not really sure how helpful it is to actually raise

01:28:08 ◼   ► these things, I just prefer to talk about them on a podcast instead.

01:28:12 ◼   ► Yep, well running the press never helps, except it always does.

01:28:15 ◼   ► Yeah.

01:28:16 ◼   ► Anuk asks, "What do you think of SwiftUI and Combine now that it's almost four years ago

01:28:21 ◼   ► that it was released?

01:28:22 ◼   ► Do you still crawl back to RxSwift?"

01:28:26 ◼   ► So very, very briefly, a little bit of context.

01:28:28 ◼   ► RxSwift is an open source third-party package that you can use to do what's called functional

01:28:35 ◼   ► reactive programming.

01:28:36 ◼   ► So again, I could go on a tangent of a tangent of a tangent, but suffice to say with RxSwift,

01:28:40 ◼   ► and Combine is like the Apple version of RxSwift, or functional reactive programming, the idea

01:28:45 ◼   ► is hey, if you treat everything as like a sequence of events over time, like a mouse

01:28:51 ◼   ► click or a tap for example, it's going to happen periodically.

01:28:56 ◼   ► And if you just treat that as a sequence of events over time, you can do things with it.

01:29:01 ◼   ► And I really, really have come to enjoy that style of programming, and I think it's really,

01:29:07 ◼   ► really good.

01:29:08 ◼   ► I was devoutly and vocally into RxSwift a few years ago.

01:29:13 ◼   ► I really enjoyed Combine.

01:29:15 ◼   ► It made some different choices than RxSwift, some better, some worse, but all in all I

01:29:18 ◼   ► really, really liked it.

01:29:19 ◼   ► And honestly, once Combine came out, I mostly stopped using RxSwift simply because Combine

01:29:23 ◼   ► got me most of the way there, and it was first party, which was nice.

01:29:28 ◼   ► So it's ostensibly well tested and reliable.

01:29:31 ◼   ► And so not that RxSwift wasn't, but you know what I mean.

01:29:34 ◼   ► That being said, especially over the last couple of years,

01:29:36 ◼   ► I've really started to enjoy SwiftUI.

01:29:38 ◼   ► And some of that is powered by Combine, but not all of it.

01:29:40 ◼   ► I really have come to like SwiftUI quite a bit.

01:29:43 ◼   ► And I've also really enjoyed in the last year or two,

01:29:47 ◼   ► I guess two years, Swift's async/await,

01:29:49 ◼   ► which accomplishes some similar things,

01:29:52 ◼   ► the asynchronous side, particularly of Combine

01:29:55 ◼   ► in RxSwift, but it does it in a very different way.

01:29:58 ◼   ► And there's also been some motion

01:30:01 ◼   ► with regard to async/await.

01:30:02 ◼   ► There's async_sequence, which is sort of kind of,

01:30:05 ◼   ► if you squint just right, it's kind of like a publisher,

01:30:07 ◼   ► which is the, or a observable,

01:30:09 ◼   ► which is kind of the main thing in RxSwift and Combine.

01:30:12 ◼   ► And there's also a Swift async_algorithms,

01:30:15 ◼   ► which is, if you squint and look just right,

01:30:17 ◼   ► kind of sort of combined, but for async/await.

01:30:21 ◼   ► And so between Async algorithms, Async sequence,

01:30:26 ◼   ► and Async await, that gets me most of what combined

01:30:32 ◼   ► and RxSwift got me before.

01:30:33 ◼   ► But that being said, in my new thing,

01:30:35 ◼   ► I needed to do something called debounce some user input.

01:30:38 ◼   ► So users typing in a search field,

01:30:41 ◼   ► and I need to go search against some web server somewhere.

01:30:44 ◼   ► And I don't wanna do a new search

01:30:45 ◼   ► every time they type a letter.

01:30:47 ◼   ► So you wait for them to stop for a half a second

01:30:50 ◼   ► or something like that before you send that search

01:30:52 ◼   ► across the internet.

01:30:53 ◼   ► And what I ended up doing was using Combine for that

01:30:56 ◼   ► because Combine has these affordances

01:30:57 ◼   ► that unless I bring in async algorithms,

01:31:00 ◼   ► I don't have an async await.

01:31:01 ◼   ► So that's a lot of words to say.

01:31:03 ◼   ► I'm not using RxSwift.

01:31:04 ◼   ► I am using Combine, but mostly I'm only in on SwiftUI

01:31:08 ◼   ► and particularly async await.

01:31:09 ◼   ► - I agree.

01:31:11 ◼   ► - Totally.

01:31:12 ◼   ► - Brad asks, "How is Apple Photos treating you?

01:31:14 ◼   ► You have to be dragged to the app kicking and screaming.

01:31:17 ◼   ► Do you like it yet?

01:31:17 ◼   ► Do you have hundreds of albums and memories?

01:31:19 ◼   ► Can we all celebrate Erin having more than 30 days of photos on her phone?

01:31:23 ◼   ► (laughing)

01:31:24 ◼   ► Yeah, so for context, what I would do is, I would,

01:31:27 ◼   ► and with her full knowledge, you know, I would take Erin's phone every month

01:31:29 ◼   ► and I would suck in, you know, the last 30 days of pictures,

01:31:33 ◼   ► and then I would leave, you know, only the most recent month on her phone

01:31:38 ◼   ► and then I would remove all the rest of them.