ATP

00:00:00 ◼   ► There's two items and they're both gigantic that I put the first one first, which is like headset

00:00:04 ◼   ► This is the what is it good for?

00:00:06 ◼   ► Absolutely nothing. Oh, yeah, exactly

00:00:09 ◼   ► So proud of us

00:00:14 ◼   ► Marco let me ask you a genuine question

00:00:17 ◼   ► What is an album that has come out in the last couple of years that you've really enjoyed that is not fish

00:00:23 ◼   ► I have really gotten into goose a lot recently

00:00:27 ◼   ► The form the aforementioned goose. Yeah, isn't that just fish by another name? No, it's a different band

00:00:32 ◼   ► I mean look it's like is is all music from a certain genre the same band

00:00:36 ◼   ► No, like there there are more than one there's more than one band in the in the jam band genre

00:00:42 ◼   ► Can you do it? Can you do an analogy for us? Can you do like?

00:00:45 ◼   ► Fish is to goose as you two is the cold play because cold play is very you two ish

00:00:51 ◼   ► But not as good as you two. Oh, I see. It's very fish ish, but not it's an analogies work

00:00:57 ◼   ► This is what happens if you take the neologies out of the SATs,

00:00:59 ◼   ► kids don't understand them anymore. That's what happens to people. Yeah.

00:01:02 ◼   ► I mean, so yeah, it's goose. It's in the same genre as fish, I would say,

00:01:05 ◼   ► but I don't, I wouldn't say it's worse. It's definitely,

00:01:08 ◼   ► it's a little bit different. It's like, you know,

00:01:11 ◼   ► these aren't totally overlapping circles. They're just heavily overlapping

00:01:14 ◼   ► circles. Um, but it's not, you know, it's not like a clone.

00:01:17 ◼   ► It isn't doing the exact same style. You know, it's, you know,

00:01:21 ◼   ► in the same way, you know,

00:01:22 ◼   ► you have multiple rock bands that played real rock music that are not the same

00:01:27 ◼   ► band and don't have the same sound.

00:01:29 ◼   ► - All right, so Goose, there is a new album

00:01:33 ◼   ► in the last several years that you've enjoyed,

00:01:35 ◼   ► like an actual studio album?

00:01:37 ◼   ► - They have a studio album.

00:01:42 ◼   ► I have not heard it.

00:01:43 ◼   ► - Oh, so you're just listening to live stuff, aren't you?

00:01:45 ◼   ► - Yes. - There it is, there it is.

00:01:47 ◼   ► Okay, are there any studio albums that you have heard,

00:01:50 ◼   ► discovered, heard, whatever, in the last handful of years?

00:01:53 ◼   ► I'm not looking to be particularly specific about this.

00:01:56 ◼   ► that you have enjoyed.

00:01:58 ◼   ► - Oh man, let me, give me a second.

00:02:00 ◼   ► I'm gonna look through my recently added section

00:02:02 ◼   ► of my Apple Music to see like which of these

00:02:05 ◼   ► are actually like albums.

00:02:06 ◼   ► What is all of this?

00:02:09 ◼   ► Did I add some kind of playlist?

00:02:11 ◼   ► - Oh, this drives me nuts about Apple Music.

00:02:14 ◼   ► - What is all this crap?

00:02:16 ◼   ► - So I am slowly, as I've said many times in the past,

00:02:19 ◼   ► I'm slowly beating myself into submission

00:02:22 ◼   ► about Apple Music and still trying to divorce myself

00:02:25 ◼   ► Spotify, it's not working. Where did all my fish go? All right, so here's the thing. When I transferred,

00:02:31 ◼   ► or whatever, I forget what service, there was an app that I used, I forget which one it was now,

00:02:35 ◼   ► but I used an app to suck the handful of playlists that I really, really love from Spotify into Apple

00:02:40 ◼   ► Music, which did work and worked reasonably well. But when you create a playlist in Apple Music,

00:02:47 ◼   ► and this drives me bananas, what it does is it adds all of the stuff in that playlist into your

00:02:54 ◼   ► library. Peer with all of the music you got when you were in college and Napster

00:02:57 ◼   ► was a thing. Peer with all the music you've ripped from CDs. It's all peer,

00:03:01 ◼   ► it's all the same, and I don't like that at all. If I want to add something in my

00:03:06 ◼   ► library, I'll put it in my damn library. I don't want Apple Music to take a

00:03:10 ◼   ► playlist and suck all that into my library. I do not want. Do not want.

00:03:15 ◼   ► Somehow I... In the last couple days, I went through and I deleted a bunch of

00:03:21 ◼   ► of old playlists and smart playlists

00:03:24 ◼   ► from iTunes/music app on the Mac

00:03:27 ◼   ► that I just hadn't used anymore,

00:03:28 ◼   ► 'cause every time I wanted to add a song to a playlist,

00:03:30 ◼   ► that list was so long that I'm like,

00:03:32 ◼   ► you know what, let me just clean this up a little bit.

00:03:34 ◼   ► And I guess somehow by doing that,

00:03:36 ◼   ► I somehow triggered the recently,

00:03:39 ◼   ► everything on the recently added list,

00:03:40 ◼   ► this is stuff I've mostly never seen before

00:03:43 ◼   ► and I've never even heard of most of these bands,

00:03:45 ◼   ► but somehow I got a whole bunch of stuff added to this list.

00:03:48 ◼   ► - What is the recently added,

00:03:49 ◼   ► are you looking at this on your phone or on your Mac?

00:03:50 ◼   ► - That's the first question.

00:03:51 ◼   ► - Both.

00:03:52 ◼   ► So on the phone music app,

00:03:54 ◼   ► if you scroll down on the library tab

00:03:56 ◼   ► and you get the recently added,

00:03:58 ◼   ► that's usually how I listen to all my fish

00:04:00 ◼   ► and goose and stuff because usually I'm listening

00:04:02 ◼   ► to recent concerts that have been released.

00:04:04 ◼   ► That's like my main home listening.

00:04:05 ◼   ► And now there's all these things from like bands like,

00:04:10 ◼   ► I don't know who Bill Withers is.

00:04:11 ◼   ► - Oh my God.

00:04:12 ◼   ► - I assume this is not pronounced management, MGMT.

00:04:15 ◼   ► (laughing)

00:04:17 ◼   ► I know what Tycho is, but it's not,

00:04:19 ◼   ► None of these are in my library before.

00:04:21 ◼   ► And now I have this giant list of all this stuff

00:04:25 ◼   ► of bands I've never added to my library.

00:04:27 ◼   ► - And you don't know how that happened?

00:04:28 ◼   ► - No, no idea.

00:04:30 ◼   ► I'll see what happens if I delete it.

00:04:32 ◼   ► - I just look at that section on my phone

00:04:34 ◼   ► and I recognize all the things that it shows

00:04:35 ◼   ► as recently added because they're things

00:04:36 ◼   ► that are recently added.

00:04:37 ◼   ► - Yep, same.

00:04:38 ◼   ► Like these aren't stations I've played

00:04:40 ◼   ► on the HomePod or anything?

00:04:41 ◼   ► Like it's--

00:04:42 ◼   ► - Oh, Mac Music has it too.

00:04:43 ◼   ► I see the same thing underneath the library

00:04:44 ◼   ► recently added, okay.

00:04:45 ◼   ► - There it is.

00:04:46 ◼   ► All right, I deleted all that crap

00:04:47 ◼   ► and I got my own recents back.

00:04:48 ◼   ► So now I can tell you, let's see,

00:04:51 ◼   ► fish, fish, fish, goose, goose, goose, fish, fish.

00:04:53 ◼   ► - I was gonna make a duck, duck, goose joke earlier,

00:04:57 ◼   ► but I think you kind of beat me to it.

00:04:58 ◼   ► (laughing)

00:05:00 ◼   ► - Thriller, that's a while ago.

00:05:03 ◼   ► - Well, it's an old album, but it's a great album.

00:05:06 ◼   ► - It is, yeah, it's a while ago.

00:05:08 ◼   ► Distant Thunderstorms, yeah, I'm not finding,

00:05:10 ◼   ► this is all like top four stuff.

00:05:11 ◼   ► I don't know what, so the problem is that the style of music

00:05:18 ◼   ► that I usually like, first of all,

00:05:20 ◼   ► is jam band music that is mostly concert-based.

00:05:23 ◼   ► So while they do tend to release albums periodically,

00:05:26 ◼   ► they tend not to be what I'm looking for,

00:05:28 ◼   ► slash the best of that band.

00:05:30 ◼   ► - As a Dave Matthews Band fan, I know what you're saying.

00:05:33 ◼   ► I understand.

00:05:34 ◼   ► - Right, so anyway, and that's most of my music listening

00:05:38 ◼   ► is jam bands.

00:05:39 ◼   ► And then secondly from that,

00:05:41 ◼   ► there are other bands and genres I like,

00:05:44 ◼   ► but they tend to be bands that are from like the '90s

00:05:47 ◼   ► were early 2000s and some of them are still making albums, most of them are not. Or if

00:05:52 ◼   ► they do make a new album, it's not recent. So like, for instance, like Stroke 9 is one

00:05:56 ◼   ► of my favorite bands. I love Stroke 9. They are still making music, not super frequently

00:06:01 ◼   ► and usually it's released as just like singles on Bandcamp instead of a full album. They

00:06:05 ◼   ► did make a full album a couple years ago and I do like it. I mean, that might even be too

00:06:10 ◼   ► old now for it to qualify. I forget when that came out. But, um, but so that's one example

00:06:15 ◼   ► is the new stroke, new slash asterisk, new Stroke Nine album.

00:06:20 ◼   ► But again, that's not super recent.

00:06:22 ◼   ► - I mean, I don't care if it's an old band,

00:06:24 ◼   ► as long as they're releasing new music,

00:06:26 ◼   ► and it sounds like Stroke Nine is the only one

00:06:28 ◼   ► you can come up with, which that's fine.

00:06:30 ◼   ► I mean, you like what you like.

00:06:31 ◼   ► - I mean, at least, I mean, there are lots of those bands

00:06:34 ◼   ► that released albums like well into the modern day,

00:06:37 ◼   ► or like at least like the mid 2000s.

00:06:39 ◼   ► Like, you know, like the Spin Doctors released an album

00:06:42 ◼   ► in like 2008 or 10 or something,

00:06:44 ◼   ► and it's not bad.

00:06:45 ◼   ► Like there's lots of, the Meat Puppets I think

00:06:47 ◼   ► are still releasing albums on a regular basis.

00:06:49 ◼   ► There's lots of those bands.

00:06:50 ◼   ► I mean, Weezer can't stop crapping out mediocre music.

00:06:54 ◼   ► - Please email Marco, not the show, Marco.

00:06:59 ◼   ► - Look, some of the modern Weezer albums are decent,

00:07:01 ◼   ► like the one with the monster on the front.

00:07:03 ◼   ► - I'm actually not a particularly big Weezer fan at all,

00:07:05 ◼   ► to be honest with you, but I'm not spitting out hot takes,

00:07:08 ◼   ► well, until just now.

00:07:10 ◼   ► Real time follow up while I have the floor.

00:07:12 ◼   ► Yotalogical says that you can disable this feature

00:07:15 ◼   ► that I dislike so, at least on the Mac music app.

00:07:19 ◼   ► You go into settings, hit the advanced tab,

00:07:22 ◼   ► and there's a checkbox, add songs to library

00:07:23 ◼   ► when adding to playlists.

00:07:25 ◼   ► I had already had that unchecked,

00:07:26 ◼   ► but a lot of these playlists were created,

00:07:28 ◼   ► like I said, using some app on my iPhone.

00:07:30 ◼   ► So I don't know what the situation is there,

00:07:33 ◼   ► but that is good to know,

00:07:34 ◼   ► and I will keep an eye on that in the future.

00:07:36 ◼   ► So that's why I-- - So I looked up

00:07:37 ◼   ► the one we were on, and I said that was recent and good.

00:07:39 ◼   ► It's called Everything Will Be Alright in the End.

00:07:41 ◼   ► It's eight years old.

00:07:42 ◼   ► So that feels great.

00:07:45 ◼   ► I love the Avett Brothers,

00:07:48 ◼   ► that was like a fairly modern find,

00:07:51 ◼   ► but even that's like 2008.

00:07:53 ◼   ► And they're still making music,

00:07:56 ◼   ► but I like their older stuff better.

00:07:58 ◼   ► There's all sorts of bands like that.

00:07:59 ◼   ► So I do listen to other stuff,

00:08:02 ◼   ► but not a ton of it, and not super recently.

00:08:04 ◼   ► And part of that also is because the type of music

00:08:08 ◼   ► that I like outside of jam bands

00:08:10 ◼   ► is not really made anymore by very many bands.

00:08:13 ◼   ► Like, I like rock music.

00:08:15 ◼   ► Rock does not really exist anymore,

00:08:18 ◼   ► the way we knew it 20, 30 years ago.

00:08:21 ◼   ► There are still some bands making some music

00:08:24 ◼   ► that kind of sounds like rock,

00:08:25 ◼   ► but they're few and far between,

00:08:27 ◼   ► and what is now popular,

00:08:29 ◼   ► all the genres now that are popular,

00:08:30 ◼   ► really are pretty far from that kind of sound.

00:08:33 ◼   ► So what I'm looking for, as everyone,

00:08:36 ◼   ► is the music that was the style

00:08:37 ◼   ► when I was a teenager/young adult,

00:08:39 ◼   ► And that's pretty hard to come by.

00:08:42 ◼   ► - Jon, are there any albums that you've discovered recently

00:08:45 ◼   ► that are of the last few years

00:08:46 ◼   ► that you would like to pitch or plug?

00:08:48 ◼   ► - Hearing Marco talk about all these bands,

00:08:52 ◼   ► these old bands that are still around and making music,

00:08:55 ◼   ► meat puppets, anyway, I figured it was my turn

00:08:58 ◼   ► to try to make you two feel old

00:08:59 ◼   ► if you would like to look in the slack

00:09:00 ◼   ► at the picture I posted there.

00:09:02 ◼   ► - I have no idea who this man is.

00:09:04 ◼   ► So I'm looking at a--

00:09:04 ◼   ► - Looking at a high school principal, maybe?

00:09:06 ◼   ► - Yeah, so it's a mostly bald man.

00:09:08 ◼   ► And he has like the Captain Picard, you know, rim around the back of the head with a very

00:09:12 ◼   ► serious, almost walrus level mustache.

00:09:14 ◼   ► And he's looking to the right hand side of the photograph to his left and his mouth is

00:09:18 ◼   ► agape and it looks like he's in the midst of talking perhaps.

00:09:21 ◼   ► Yeah, it's hard and it's hard for me to gauge for people who are born when you two were

00:09:25 ◼   ► born if this is the correct timing to make you feel old.

00:09:31 ◼   ► But anyway, last chance.

00:09:32 ◼   ► Any guesses?

00:09:33 ◼   ► Who is this?

00:09:34 ◼   ► I have no earthly idea.

00:09:35 ◼   ► Marco?

00:09:36 ◼   ► formerly cool young musician who's now not cool and old.

00:09:39 ◼   ► (laughing)

00:09:40 ◼   ► - Who is it?

00:09:41 ◼   ► - Oh man.

00:09:43 ◼   ► Is that like the lead singer of Meat Puppets or something?

00:09:46 ◼   ► - Here you go.

00:09:47 ◼   ► Here you go.

00:09:49 ◼   ► It's the guy on the right.

00:09:50 ◼   ► And if you don't know who these people is,

00:09:51 ◼   ► so help me Marco, I will reach through this

00:09:54 ◼   ► and let the computer line--

00:09:54 ◼   ► - Mother of God, are you serious?

00:09:57 ◼   ► I don't know his name, but I know that this is--

00:09:59 ◼   ► - Don't give it, Marco, do you know what is pictured

00:10:02 ◼   ► in the bottom photo?

00:10:04 ◼   ► - I'm gonna take a wild guess.

00:10:06 ◼   ► I don't know for sure, I'm gonna guess, is this Oasis?

00:10:08 ◼   ► - Oh no. (laughing)

00:10:10 ◼   ► - No, I guess not, I guess I got that one wrong.

00:10:12 ◼   ► - Oh no, oh no, no.

00:10:14 ◼   ► (laughing)

00:10:15 ◼   ► Oh, Marco, Marco, Marco.

00:10:16 ◼   ► In Marco's defense, I cannot state this fellow as me.

00:10:20 ◼   ► - And the reason I paused there is like,

00:10:22 ◼   ► you never know with Marco, it's always worth asking.

00:10:26 ◼   ► Always, I'm gonna put in a photo of the Statue of Liberty

00:10:30 ◼   ► and be like, Marco, do you know what this is?

00:10:31 ◼   ► And you'll be like, is that Oasis?

00:10:32 ◼   ► (laughing)

00:10:34 ◼   ► Listeners, maybe Mark will put it in the show.

00:10:37 ◼   ► Casey, what have I pasted into the chat room?

00:10:39 ◼   ► What have I pasted here?

00:10:40 ◼   ► - So again, the first picture was

00:10:42 ◼   ► the old high school principal bald mustache,

00:10:45 ◼   ► ball-wrist mustache.

00:10:46 ◼   ► The bottom picture is the band Nirvana with Dave Grohl.

00:10:50 ◼   ► - You may be familiar with them.

00:10:50 ◼   ► They're obscure, you might not have heard of them.

00:10:52 ◼   ► I don't know.

00:10:53 ◼   ► - I never knew Kurt Cobain's hair was that short

00:10:55 ◼   ► at any point.

00:10:56 ◼   ► - They're leaving like an RV or a trailer or whatnot.

00:10:59 ◼   ► It's Dave Grohl on the left, Kurt Cobain in the center.

00:11:01 ◼   ► - I mean, I never heard of Dave Grohl.

00:11:02 ◼   ► You like the Foo Fighters.

00:11:04 ◼   ► - He's like 10.

00:11:05 ◼   ► (laughing)

00:11:06 ◼   ► - That's the whole point of this.

00:11:08 ◼   ► - Also his hair is too short.

00:11:09 ◼   ► None of you, the one guy in the picture with long hair

00:11:12 ◼   ► is the guy you were asking about who I don't know,

00:11:14 ◼   ► Dave Grohl and Kurt Cobain always had much longer hair

00:11:18 ◼   ► than that when I, like the part that I knew of them.

00:11:20 ◼   ► - Listen, this is a photo of the entire band Nirvana

00:11:23 ◼   ► when they were popular and you thought it was Oasis,

00:11:25 ◼   ► so you're not coming back from this, I'm sorry.

00:11:27 ◼   ► (laughing)

00:11:28 ◼   ► - I mean, they got the time period almost right.

00:11:31 ◼   ► - But anyway, does that make you feel old?

00:11:32 ◼   ► I guess not 'cause you don't even know as heck they are,

00:11:34 ◼   ► - It makes me feel really frickin' old, my goodness.

00:11:36 ◼   ► - I can tell you which of the songs are MePuppet songs.

00:11:39 ◼   ► (laughing)

00:11:41 ◼   ► - Can we also agree, this is tangentially related,

00:11:44 ◼   ► that Dave Grohl is possibly the coolest

00:11:46 ◼   ► and most awesome human that has ever existed ever?

00:11:50 ◼   ► - He seems fine.

00:11:51 ◼   ► - I love Dave Grohl, he makes me so happy.

00:11:53 ◼   ► Like, as far as, okay, so first of all,

00:11:54 ◼   ► with the disclaimer, as far as we know,

00:11:56 ◼   ► he's not like a jerk in any major ways,

00:11:58 ◼   ► so that helps a lot, but like,

00:12:00 ◼   ► he just puts out so much good music

00:12:02 ◼   ► and so much good energy into the music world.

00:12:04 ◼   ► Like he just seems like, he seems like he's one of those

00:12:06 ◼   ► pure musicians who just wants to rock all the time.

00:12:09 ◼   ► And not to mention the fact that he is incredibly talented

00:12:12 ◼   ► at doing so, so yeah, I have a lot of respect for him.

00:12:15 ◼   ► - Did I photograph them playing at WWDC?

00:12:18 ◼   ► Am I imagining that or was that a different band?

00:12:20 ◼   ► - They played at the, no Foo Fighters never played

00:12:22 ◼   ► when we were there, John.

00:12:23 ◼   ► - Who played at WWDC?

00:12:24 ◼   ► - Weezer played one of ours, it was not a,

00:12:26 ◼   ► it was a terrible gig.

00:12:28 ◼   ► I can't, nothing against them, they're never,

00:12:31 ◼   ► They haven't ever been known for putting on a great show,

00:12:33 ◼   ► but this was also the world's most horrible gig

00:12:38 ◼   ► for a band to play.

00:12:39 ◼   ► You're playing with the backs of a bunch of nerds

00:12:41 ◼   ► who were trying to stay as far away from you as possible

00:12:43 ◼   ► so they could talk to each other.

00:12:44 ◼   ► - I have too many WWDC pictures.

00:12:47 ◼   ► - But yeah, just to stall for time,

00:12:49 ◼   ► I really enjoyed the Newish Muse album,

00:12:54 ◼   ► speaking of rock music, Will of the People.

00:12:56 ◼   ► Silver Sun Pickups just came out with a new out,

00:12:58 ◼   ► new-ish album, Physical Thrills, which is very good.

00:13:01 ◼   ► I also have really enjoyed particularly

00:13:03 ◼   ► the first few songs of Halsey's

00:13:06 ◼   ► If I Can't Have Love, I Want Power.

00:13:08 ◼   ► Very, very good album, really enjoyed all those.

00:13:11 ◼   ► And those are all in the last year or two,

00:13:13 ◼   ► if I recall correctly.

00:13:15 ◼   ► - I just put a picture in the chat room.

00:13:17 ◼   ► - Yeah, that's what you said.

00:13:18 ◼   ► The giant W symbol kind of gives that one away.

00:13:21 ◼   ► - I don't know why I thought it was the Foo Fighters.

00:13:22 ◼   ► - WWDC 2019.

00:13:24 ◼   ► - It was a couple years ago, yeah.

00:13:25 ◼   ► - That was the last time we were all together, wasn't it?

00:13:28 ◼   ► Oh, sad.

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00:15:22 ◼   ► should probably do a show for anyone that's actually still listening. I think

00:15:27 ◼   ► we might have driven, this might be the time, this might be the episode that

00:15:30 ◼   ► we've driven everyone off. So for the three of you that are still here, thank

00:15:33 ◼   ► you for hanging out with us. Let's drive you off too and talk about healthcare in

00:15:37 ◼   ► the United States! Whoo! So a handful of people pointed us to, I feel like I've

00:15:43 ◼   ► heard of this fellow, although I don't know any of his work and that's not, I'm

00:15:46 ◼   ► not trying to be funny, I'm really serious. Brian David Gilbert, who

00:15:49 ◼   ► apparently is pretty popular on YouTube, did an overview of US healthcare terminology, which covers

00:15:56 ◼   ► a lot, a lot, a lot of terminology, and because it's the US government, a lot of acronyms.

00:16:01 ◼   ► This was very interesting. I had pieced together over time almost everything that he talked about,

00:16:07 ◼   ► so I was pretty proud of myself. But there's definitely stuff in this that I didn't know.

00:16:13 ◼   ► And if you live in a civilized country and want to see how barbaric and ridiculous

00:16:17 ◼   ► Our setup is, this is the video for you,

00:16:20 ◼   ► 'cause, ooh, boy, it is entertaining,

00:16:23 ◼   ► but it is, not the video,

00:16:25 ◼   ► but our healthcare system is a mess.

00:16:27 ◼   ► - Yeah, it's not aimed at, like,

00:16:29 ◼   ► explaining the healthcare system.

00:16:30 ◼   ► It's aimed at, like, 'cause he made a video,

00:16:31 ◼   ► he's making lemons out of lemonade.

00:16:33 ◼   ► He, like, either lost a job or left his job,

00:16:35 ◼   ► and he was out on his own and needed to deal with healthcare,

00:16:38 ◼   ► not through, you know, his employer,

00:16:41 ◼   ► or, you know, continuing his healthcare from his employer,

00:16:43 ◼   ► and so he had to do a crash course,

00:16:44 ◼   ► and, like, I've never had to do this before.

00:16:46 ◼   ► I've gotta learn about it.

00:16:47 ◼   ► And so as part of the process of learning about it,

00:16:49 ◼   ► he made a video, because that's what

00:16:50 ◼   ► you do if you're a YouTuber.

00:16:52 ◼   ► And it makes perfect sense.

00:16:53 ◼   ► And so that's what it's about.

00:16:54 ◼   ► It's kind of like, if you're just leaving school

00:16:57 ◼   ► or just going off your parents' health care

00:16:58 ◼   ► and you don't know how the system works in the US,

00:17:00 ◼   ► this video is for you.

00:17:02 ◼   ► But he also put in a little section--

00:17:04 ◼   ► I mean, you do learn a lot about the US health care section.

00:17:06 ◼   ► He put in a little bit in the beginning that says--

00:17:11 ◼   ► and I'm quoting from the video--

00:17:12 ◼   ► "And for those of you non-Americans watching

00:17:13 ◼   ► this video thinking, I don't need to watch this video,

00:17:15 ◼   ► I'm British.

00:17:16 ◼   ► Consider it a cautionary tale, because there are definitely

00:17:19 ◼   ► people in your country that want to privatize healthcare,

00:17:22 ◼   ► and you can't let them do that.

00:17:23 ◼   ► And then he emphasizes, you can't let them do that,

00:17:26 ◼   ► because it's terrible and you'd become like us.

00:17:28 ◼   ► (laughing)

00:17:30 ◼   ► - The best part of this, by the way,

00:17:31 ◼   ► was that he was wearing, or he had kind of like dubbed,

00:17:34 ◼   ► if you will, Chroma Key.

00:17:35 ◼   ► - Oh, don't ruin the joke.

00:17:36 ◼   ► - All right, all right.

00:17:37 ◼   ► - Let people watch it, it's humor.

00:17:38 ◼   ► - Well, you should watch it for the visual gag as well.

00:17:41 ◼   ► But yeah, it's terrible here.

00:17:43 ◼   ► - My favorite term, by the way, is coinsurance.

00:17:46 ◼   ► It's one of those things where it's like,

00:17:48 ◼   ► it sounds like a good thing.

00:17:50 ◼   ► Oh, I get 80% co-insurance, what's that?

00:17:54 ◼   ► And then you learn, oh, depending on what side

00:17:57 ◼   ► of the line it's on, it's like, oh, that means

00:17:59 ◼   ► I pay either 20% or 80% of--

00:18:02 ◼   ► - Or more likely 80%.

00:18:04 ◼   ► - The entire cost of whatever operation I would get

00:18:07 ◼   ► in that scenario or whatever, it's like,

00:18:08 ◼   ► oh, that's not super useful after all.

00:18:12 ◼   ► Yeah, we have all sorts of fun stuff.

00:18:16 ◼   ► And also my favorite feedback from people

00:18:18 ◼   ► on our healthcare thing was,

00:18:20 ◼   ► why don't you just move to insert better country here?

00:18:23 ◼   ► It's like, well, that's easier said than done

00:18:27 ◼   ► for most people.

00:18:27 ◼   ► Like I think most people, the suggestion of,

00:18:31 ◼   ► why don't you just move across the world

00:18:33 ◼   ► to a different country, might not be super helpful.

00:18:36 ◼   ► - I mean, especially when it's phrased that way.

00:18:38 ◼   ► I feel like that's the type of thing

00:18:40 ◼   ► where if I was in a Starkey move, I would be like,

00:18:43 ◼   ► what's your best guess?

00:18:45 ◼   ► which is my, here's my answer,

00:18:46 ◼   ► it's like why don't you just move to a different country?

00:18:47 ◼   ► It's like, I don't know, like what do you think,

00:18:50 ◼   ► what are possible answers to that question

00:18:52 ◼   ► why someone wouldn't wanna move to another country?

00:18:54 ◼   ► That's right, I'm on the board, class.

00:18:56 ◼   ► (laughing)

00:18:57 ◼   ► - I mean, cost, logistics, family, jobs.

00:19:00 ◼   ► - I bet if we put our heads together,

00:19:02 ◼   ► we can come up with some kind of,

00:19:04 ◼   ► why would someone not want to leave the country?

00:19:05 ◼   ► - Citizenship, they wouldn't let us,

00:19:08 ◼   ► it turns out you can't easily move

00:19:10 ◼   ► to whatever country you want.

00:19:11 ◼   ► - Yeah, first of all, other countries

00:19:12 ◼   ► aren't all necessarily saying,

00:19:14 ◼   ► sure, come live here.

00:19:15 ◼   ► You can live here permanently forever really easily.

00:19:17 ◼   ► I mean, granted, not all of them are as bad as the US

00:19:20 ◼   ► in that regard, but some of them are, you know, whatever.

00:19:22 ◼   ► But yeah, all the other stuff like our family's here,

00:19:24 ◼   ► it's expensive, we have a house, kids are in school,

00:19:26 ◼   ► like all the reasons you would expect.

00:19:28 ◼   ► So to answer that question,

00:19:29 ◼   ► but that's not really what they're asking.

00:19:30 ◼   ► What they're really saying is,

00:19:31 ◼   ► we have it better here,

00:19:33 ◼   ► and if you came here, you would be happier.

00:19:35 ◼   ► And they're probably right,

00:19:37 ◼   ► but it's still a big ask, as they say.

00:19:39 ◼   ► - Or at least like, it might be better in that way,

00:19:42 ◼   ► but there also might be other changes

00:19:44 ◼   ► that we would not view as better.

00:19:46 ◼   ► - I mean, not being able to speak the language

00:19:47 ◼   ► would be difficult for a lot of the countries.

00:19:49 ◼   ► - Oh right, I forgot about language.

00:19:50 ◼   ► - For the countries that do speak English,

00:19:52 ◼   ► pretty much everything is better.

00:19:53 ◼   ► - Like Australian?

00:19:54 ◼   ► Man, I had no chance understanding anything they say.

00:19:57 ◼   ► - I don't know if you're kidding,

00:19:58 ◼   ► but I'm not when I say I think you're right,

00:20:00 ◼   ► because Australians abbreviate everything.

00:20:03 ◼   ► - Oh, you'd be fine.

00:20:05 ◼   ► You'd be fine and it would be fun.

00:20:07 ◼   ► - Is Australian internet access still terrible?

00:20:09 ◼   ► Is it still really slow?

00:20:10 ◼   ► - No, I think it's gotten better.

00:20:11 ◼   ► I think it's at least mediocre,

00:20:13 ◼   ► but it's way, way, way cheaper,

00:20:14 ◼   ► which is an improvement.

00:20:17 ◼   ► We had a Canadian, a couple of Canadians write us,

00:20:20 ◼   ► and here's the thing, I like seasons.

00:20:23 ◼   ► I like to have a season other than winter,

00:20:25 ◼   ► please and thank you, so hard pass.

00:20:27 ◼   ► - Yeah, and if I'm only gonna have one season,

00:20:29 ◼   ► that's the last one I would pick.

00:20:31 ◼   ► (laughing)

00:20:32 ◼   ► - Now this is when you're all firing up your emails.

00:20:34 ◼   ► I know there are other seasons.

00:20:36 ◼   ► I'm kidding, mostly.

00:20:38 ◼   ► But I just like Fahrenheit too much,

00:20:39 ◼   ► and that's why I won't move.

00:20:40 ◼   ► - The good thing with Canadian emails are,

00:20:41 ◼   ► they show up as only about 90% the size of ours.

00:20:44 ◼   ► (laughing)

00:20:46 ◼   ► - Gosh.

00:20:46 ◼   ► John, tell me about this ours technical article, please.

00:20:49 ◼   ► - Oh yeah, just one more link for the people

00:20:51 ◼   ► who want to learn more about it.

00:20:52 ◼   ► The headline is, you know, you'd write this article

00:20:54 ◼   ► every year for the past 100 years,

00:20:57 ◼   ► it'd probably be true.

00:20:58 ◼   ► US still has the worst, most expensive healthcare

00:21:00 ◼   ► of any high income country.

00:21:02 ◼   ► As a country, the US spends more in healthcare

00:21:04 ◼   ► than any other high income country in the world

00:21:06 ◼   ► on the basis of both per person costs

00:21:07 ◼   ► and share of gross domestic product

00:21:09 ◼   ► Compared with other high-income peers,

00:21:11 ◼   ► the US has the shortest life expectancy at birth,

00:21:13 ◼   ► the highest rate of avoidable deaths,

00:21:15 ◼   ► the highest rate of newborn deaths,

00:21:16 ◼   ► the highest rate of maternal deaths,

00:21:17 ◼   ► the highest rate of adults with chronic conditions.

00:21:20 ◼   ► We pay the most, we get the worst.

00:21:21 ◼   ► We're number one, woo, US healthcare.

00:21:23 ◼   ► - USA, USA.

00:21:25 ◼   ► - And again, this is not a new thing.

00:21:27 ◼   ► This has been true for our entire lives.

00:21:28 ◼   ► The system sucks.

00:21:30 ◼   ► We're trying to change it.

00:21:31 ◼   ► We are stopped by many powerful forces and stupidity.

00:21:34 ◼   ► (laughing)

00:21:35 ◼   ► - All right, it wouldn't be a new Apple product

00:21:38 ◼   ► If we didn't have some sort of drama around it, we were talking about SSDs last week.

00:21:43 ◼   ► Well, new HomePod review units are out, and guess what, baby?

00:21:47 ◼   ► On the plus side, it does have a removable power cable.

00:21:49 ◼   ► In fact, it comes removed in the box, apparently.

00:21:52 ◼   ► But the white ring on wood tables, I don't even know what to call this, but the ring

00:21:57 ◼   ► on tables thing is still a thing, apparently, at least at the beginning.

00:22:02 ◼   ► MKBHD has a video, which we'll link in the show notes, where he discusses how the new

00:22:06 ◼   ► HomePod does still indeed leave a different and lighter ring on wood surfaces, particularly

00:22:11 ◼   ► the white one. But then I just saw a follow-up, maybe it was a reel on Instagram, I don't

00:22:15 ◼   ► remember where I saw it, so I probably won't link it for the show notes, but he had said

00:22:19 ◼   ► after the first like one or two placements, you know, he put it down on a table and then

00:22:24 ◼   ► moved it once, then moved it again, and by like the third or fourth time he said that

00:22:28 ◼   ► ring doesn't seem to be coming back anymore. So his suggestion, I'm not sure how you would

00:22:32 ◼   ► do this, but his suggestion was clean the bottom of your home pod and see if that makes

00:22:37 ◼   ► a difference before you stick it on untreated wooden tables.

00:22:40 ◼   ► So this, we had this discussion when the very first big home pod came out, and in practice

00:22:47 ◼   ► it is the type of thing that basically resolve itself because either because people don't

00:22:51 ◼   ► care that it was doing that or they found a place to put it where this wasn't an issue

00:22:54 ◼   ► or it didn't once it went away.

00:22:56 ◼   ► This is not like, the story here is not so much that, you know, this problem remains

00:23:01 ◼   ► or something. The story is that the new HomePod is so unchanged from the old one despite essentially

00:23:07 ◼   ► having every single part be new as far as I know. Like it's not the same size, not the

00:23:11 ◼   ► same shape, the foot on the bottom is not the same, the screen on the top is not the

00:23:13 ◼   ► same, the insides aren't the same. It's like an all new HomePod, but as I talked about

00:23:19 ◼   ► last time when we discussed the new HomePod, they didn't really rethink this product. Down

00:23:24 ◼   ► to this little weird annoyance that wasn't a very big issue, but hey, if you're coming

00:23:30 ◼   ► up with the new HomePod, shouldn't everything be on the table? We could do better the second

00:23:34 ◼   ► time around. I guess it makes a lighter ring, you know, the second time around. The foot

00:23:39 ◼   ► is differently shaped, but they didn't even reconsider, like, is there another way we

00:23:42 ◼   ► can -- could the bottom of the HomePod be different in some way to totally avoid this

00:23:47 ◼   ► issue? And they did not address that. They did not rethink that. They just basically

00:23:51 ◼   ► did a slightly updated version of the same rubber foot they had before.

00:23:55 ◼   ► But now only five tweeters are pushing down

00:23:57 ◼   ► to make the ring.

00:23:58 ◼   ► (laughing)

00:23:58 ◼   ► - Yeah.

00:23:59 ◼   ► - No, as far as the home, I don't have mine yet.

00:24:02 ◼   ► I think I'm gonna have it for next week's show,

00:24:04 ◼   ► but I don't have it yet.

00:24:05 ◼   ► But I think, I'm pretty encouraged by the reviews so far.

00:24:09 ◼   ► The reviews basically say it sounds about the same,

00:24:14 ◼   ► but is faster.

00:24:16 ◼   ► And that's exactly what I wanted with the,

00:24:19 ◼   ► that's exactly the low expectations version of this product.

00:24:23 ◼   ► And I think, again, I'm very happy

00:24:26 ◼   ► that this update happened at all.

00:24:28 ◼   ► There are so many things I would love

00:24:30 ◼   ► to do differently with this product

00:24:32 ◼   ► if they actually put more effort into a real redesign

00:24:36 ◼   ► and a real rethink of this product

00:24:38 ◼   ► and maybe this product line.

00:24:40 ◼   ► I would love to see them do more, and we all would.

00:24:42 ◼   ► But I'm of the impression that,

00:24:45 ◼   ► or at least I'm of the theory that

00:24:47 ◼   ► I don't think the discontinuation of the first HomePod

00:24:50 ◼   ► was necessarily planned or happened on schedule

00:24:55 ◼   ► or whatever, I suspect that was a product

00:24:59 ◼   ► that they expected to last longer than it did

00:25:01 ◼   ► and they expected to sell better than it did.

00:25:03 ◼   ► I mean, we were hearing that they were still selling out

00:25:05 ◼   ► their launch stock, so maybe it's like at the end there.

00:25:09 ◼   ► So maybe they just massively made way too many of them

00:25:12 ◼   ► and then something changed in the COVID era

00:25:15 ◼   ► where it used an old processor on an old process node

00:25:20 ◼   ► and nothing else in the lineup at that time

00:25:22 ◼   ► was still using anything as old as the A8 as far as I know.

00:25:25 ◼   ► And so it's possible with all the chip shortages and stuff

00:25:27 ◼   ► they couldn't even get any more A8s

00:25:30 ◼   ► if they wanted to make more.

00:25:31 ◼   ► It's also possible that all the different things

00:25:34 ◼   ► we were hearing about like certain bad electronic parts

00:25:37 ◼   ► or physical design flaws that would slowly fry

00:25:40 ◼   ► certain components, maybe it would just cost them

00:25:42 ◼   ► too much in repairs and they couldn't redesign it yet

00:25:44 ◼   ► or whatever the case may be,

00:25:46 ◼   ► I think that that product's lifespan was cut short.

00:25:48 ◼   ► They probably, at that time, when they discontinued it,

00:25:51 ◼   ► that's probably when they started making this one,

00:25:53 ◼   ► and it took them this long to do it,

00:25:55 ◼   ► because, you know, Apple's Apple.

00:25:56 ◼   ► But I don't think they actually really were stepping back

00:25:59 ◼   ► and rethinking and redesigning this product.

00:26:01 ◼   ► I think they were putting out fires from the first one.

00:26:04 ◼   ► Just metaphorically speaking,

00:26:05 ◼   ► I don't think it actually started fires, as far as I know.

00:26:08 ◼   ► They were trying to just fix whatever was causing them

00:26:10 ◼   ► to not even be able to continue the product existing.

00:26:13 ◼   ► They fixed those things and engineered this new one

00:26:16 ◼   ► with whatever resources they were able to justify here.

00:26:19 ◼   ► Because again, this is probably not

00:26:21 ◼   ► a high volume product at all.

00:26:23 ◼   ► So they can't afford to drop everything

00:26:27 ◼   ► from their more important product lines

00:26:29 ◼   ► and put a bunch of engineers in this

00:26:31 ◼   ► and get a new version out there in six months.

00:26:33 ◼   ► I don't think that's a thing they could do here.

00:26:35 ◼   ► They couldn't justify that kind of prioritization

00:26:37 ◼   ► for this product.

00:26:38 ◼   ► They did what they could with the resources

00:26:40 ◼   ► that whatever team did this was able to get from the company.

00:26:43 ◼   ► So this is a good like HomePod 1.5 maybe,

00:26:47 ◼   ► but if they ever do like a true 2.0,

00:26:51 ◼   ► I would hope to see more changes.

00:26:53 ◼   ► And again, I don't have mine yet, so we'll see,

00:26:55 ◼   ► but for instance, obviously some kind of input

00:26:59 ◼   ► would be great. (laughs)

00:27:01 ◼   ► I don't think they're ever gonna do it

00:27:03 ◼   ► because that's not their way,

00:27:04 ◼   ► but that would certainly be great

00:27:05 ◼   ► for preserving the lifespan of these products,

00:27:08 ◼   ► to use them in the future.

00:27:09 ◼   ► Look at how many people have iPod Hi-Fis

00:27:12 ◼   ► still in use today because they have inputs

00:27:15 ◼   ► and they're able to have this perfectly good

00:27:17 ◼   ► working speaker, they're able to use it afterwards,

00:27:20 ◼   ► after all of the technology is outdated,

00:27:23 ◼   ► after the whole product line it was made to hold

00:27:27 ◼   ► and work with, it doesn't even exist anymore.

00:27:29 ◼   ► Long after that, people still can use iPod Hi-Fis today

00:27:33 ◼   ► because it has a line input

00:27:34 ◼   ► and it's just an AC powered speaker

00:27:36 ◼   ► and those things tend to last a long time

00:27:37 ◼   ► when they don't have any major design flaws.

00:27:39 ◼   ► I would love for the HomePods to have that kind of

00:27:42 ◼   ► versatility and potential lifespan and future use.

00:27:45 ◼   ► That would be great, 'cause they're really good speakers.

00:27:47 ◼   ► I would also love them to rethink the control surface.

00:27:51 ◼   ► I can't tell you how many times,

00:27:54 ◼   ► if you've ever had a HomePod on a counter

00:27:57 ◼   ► near a light switch, you have had this problem

00:28:00 ◼   ► where you walk by to flip the light switch off

00:28:03 ◼   ► and you accidentally brush a finger

00:28:06 ◼   ► against that tuck surface.

00:28:08 ◼   ► And maybe since you're turning the light off,

00:28:09 ◼   ► maybe it's late at night and your house is quiet

00:28:11 ◼   ► and people are already asleep.

00:28:13 ◼   ► And because you brushed that finger

00:28:15 ◼   ► against that tuck surface when you turn the light off,

00:28:17 ◼   ► it instantly starts blasting your Foo Fighters

00:28:20 ◼   ► that you were playing earlier to your quiet house.

00:28:23 ◼   ► And ugh, just. (laughs)

00:28:26 ◼   ► And of course that is not an option.

00:28:27 ◼   ► Whatever action is like, you tap the home pod

00:28:31 ◼   ► to resume playing whatever it was playing before,

00:28:33 ◼   ► can't turn that off.

00:28:34 ◼   ► So that's just it.

00:28:34 ◼   ► Good luck ever dusting one, same thing, same reason.

00:28:38 ◼   ► But why would dust accumulate on a flat surface

00:28:41 ◼   ► facing straight up?

00:28:43 ◼   ► Anyway, so there's lots of little tweaks.

00:28:47 ◼   ► The power cord, I'm glad it's removable.

00:28:49 ◼   ► But I would prefer if it had a standard IEC power socket

00:28:52 ◼   ► because then I could buy a shorter or longer one.

00:28:55 ◼   ► Again, these are things that I would change.

00:28:58 ◼   ► Maybe have some kind of, as I mentioned before,

00:29:00 ◼   ► some kind of battery version, whatever.

00:29:01 ◼   ► I don't wanna go too far into this

00:29:02 ◼   ► 'cause I don't even have mine yet.

00:29:04 ◼   ► but basically I think it's right to look at this product

00:29:07 ◼   ► not as a 2.0, but as like at best a 1.5,

00:29:11 ◼   ► because this was a oh crap, something went wrong product.

00:29:14 ◼   ► This was not intended to ever, to be like,

00:29:18 ◼   ► this was not the plan from the beginning I don't think.

00:29:19 ◼   ► If you look at what happened,

00:29:21 ◼   ► I can't imagine this was planned from the beginning

00:29:23 ◼   ► to be this way, so let's judge this product for what it is,

00:29:26 ◼   ► which is a revision to the previous HomePod, not a sequel.

00:29:31 ◼   ► - I've watched a lot of the reviews,

00:29:33 ◼   ► And I feel like they're kind of not encouraging to me.

00:29:37 ◼   ► A lot of people say, oh, it sounds just as good, it's fine.

00:29:39 ◼   ► Like you don't notice any of the missing stuff.

00:29:41 ◼   ► But there are a bunch of ones,

00:29:42 ◼   ► including ones that had people like blindfolded

00:29:44 ◼   ► so they didn't know what thing they were listening to

00:29:46 ◼   ► that were picking the old HomePod over the new one.

00:29:48 ◼   ► And I didn't see a single one

00:29:50 ◼   ► that was saying the new one sounds better than the old.

00:29:52 ◼   ► So that's not particularly encouraging,

00:29:54 ◼   ► but it'll probably be fine.

00:29:55 ◼   ► - We'll see.

00:29:56 ◼   ► It is very, very difficult.

00:29:58 ◼   ► I talked about this before.

00:29:59 ◼   ► It's very, very difficult to do fair,

00:30:02 ◼   ► accurate blind test of audio equipment.

00:30:05 ◼   ► Because even the slightest difference in volume

00:30:08 ◼   ► or the very slightest difference in the EQ balance

00:30:12 ◼   ► can make somebody think one sounds better than the other.

00:30:14 ◼   ► - I know, but if that was the case,

00:30:15 ◼   ► I would have expected to see some

00:30:17 ◼   ► where it went the other direction,

00:30:19 ◼   ► some where the new one was preferred and I didn't.

00:30:20 ◼   ► I mean, I maybe watched like seven reviews,

00:30:23 ◼   ► so it's not a great sample size, but I'm just saying.

00:30:26 ◼   ► - I've also, for whatever it's worth,

00:30:28 ◼   ► I have found that whatever I am looking for

00:30:32 ◼   ► in headphones or speakers, oftentimes it does not line up

00:30:37 ◼   ► with what tech reviewers are looking for

00:30:39 ◼   ► when they review speakers and headphones.

00:30:42 ◼   ► Like there's been so many times where the tech world

00:30:46 ◼   ► will just be fawning all over some new headphone

00:30:51 ◼   ► or speaker or even microphone that comes out

00:30:53 ◼   ► and then I get it and try it and I do a direct comparison

00:30:55 ◼   ► to other stuff and I'm like I don't get it.

00:30:58 ◼   ► Why is this special, why is this good?

00:30:59 ◼   ► this is not as good as they say it is to my ears.

00:31:01 ◼   ► And you know, at first, my original MO on that

00:31:05 ◼   ► was basically to go on my blog and say everyone's wrong.

00:31:08 ◼   ► And that's how I started my original beef

00:31:10 ◼   ► with the wire cutter where he insulted

00:31:12 ◼   ► my genitals on Twitter.

00:31:13 ◼   ► My new strategy here, my new approach here

00:31:16 ◼   ► is just to assume I'm the weird one here.

00:31:18 ◼   ► 'Cause I know, look, people's tastes vary

00:31:20 ◼   ► and also people's taste in audio products shifts over time.

00:31:25 ◼   ► Like your ears change over time,

00:31:27 ◼   ► your preferences change over time,

00:31:28 ◼   ► your taste changes over time.

00:31:30 ◼   ► All I can say is I often don't agree

00:31:33 ◼   ► with what tech reviewers look for in audio gear.

00:31:37 ◼   ► So, and I would imagine that probably applies

00:31:40 ◼   ► to lots of you out there.

00:31:40 ◼   ► You also might not agree with them

00:31:42 ◼   ► for different reasons, in different directions maybe.

00:31:44 ◼   ► But it's very, very difficult

00:31:46 ◼   ► to measure audio quality of something.

00:31:49 ◼   ► It's very subjective.

00:31:50 ◼   ► And then to try to communicate that in a review

00:31:53 ◼   ► in a useful way is even more difficult.

00:31:56 ◼   ► And then you reading or watching it,

00:31:58 ◼   ► you really have no idea whether you would like this

00:32:01 ◼   ► in your room, in your house,

00:32:02 ◼   ► playing your music to your ears.

00:32:04 ◼   ► So it's so difficult to make comparisons.

00:32:07 ◼   ► So that's why you kinda just gotta,

00:32:10 ◼   ► you can take general ideas from people,

00:32:12 ◼   ► like hey, in general, this set of products over here

00:32:15 ◼   ► is pretty good and is worthy of consideration,

00:32:18 ◼   ► and maybe this set of products over here is not so good.

00:32:21 ◼   ► But the specifics of small details.

00:32:23 ◼   ► Hey, does this thing sound better than this thing?

00:32:25 ◼   ► Well, kinda, sorta, maybe, depends on what you want

00:32:27 ◼   ► or what you're playing or whatever, your room.

00:32:29 ◼   ► There's so many little variations

00:32:31 ◼   ► and little details that matter a lot

00:32:33 ◼   ► that you can't make subtle distinctions very well

00:32:36 ◼   ► in a repeatable, useful way.

00:32:38 ◼   ► - Good news, Marco.

00:32:39 ◼   ► You can buy a third-party cable

00:32:40 ◼   ► and connect it to your new HomePod.

00:32:42 ◼   ► - You can?

00:32:43 ◼   ► What kind of plug is it?

00:32:44 ◼   ► - Plug it into this 9to5Mac story

00:32:45 ◼   ► that was posted in the chat

00:32:46 ◼   ► and has a little caption on a picture

00:32:48 ◼   ► that shows some ugly black third-party cable

00:32:50 ◼   ► that says, plugged into a new HomePod,

00:32:51 ◼   ► it says you can use any figure eight cable

00:32:54 ◼   ► as a replacement.

00:32:55 ◼   ► - Oh my God. - I don't know

00:32:55 ◼   ► what a figure eight cable is, but--

00:32:56 ◼   ► - It's the one on the back of the Apple TV

00:32:59 ◼   ► in the most PlayStations.

00:33:00 ◼   ► - Yeah, but it looks bigger than that.

00:33:01 ◼   ► Maybe I can't tell from the picture.

00:33:02 ◼   ► It's a similar shape.

00:33:03 ◼   ► - No, it looks exactly like that.

00:33:04 ◼   ► Yeah, that's one of the IEC cable types.

00:33:06 ◼   ► I forgot the name of it, but that's a standard cable.

00:33:08 ◼   ► Oh, that's great.

00:33:10 ◼   ► - I was gonna say, I would imagine that they wouldn't

00:33:12 ◼   ► have come up with it, because to get a new cable,

00:33:14 ◼   ► new connector type, like certified or whatever,

00:33:16 ◼   ► blah, blah, blah, would be kind of annoying and painful.

00:33:19 ◼   ► I was gonna say it looked a lot like the one

00:33:21 ◼   ► that's in the back of my PlayStation 5, but maybe bigger,

00:33:23 ◼   ► but again, I can't tell scale from these photos,

00:33:24 ◼   ► so maybe it is the exact same size.

00:33:26 ◼   ► - Yeah, it looks like it's,

00:33:27 ◼   ► and thanks to David Chobb in the chat,

00:33:28 ◼   ► it's a C7 or C8 cable.

00:33:30 ◼   ► - Depends on whether the engine is in the front

00:33:32 ◼   ► or in the mid engine, yeah.

00:33:35 ◼   ► - Reference acknowledged.

00:33:37 ◼   ► All right, John, can you figure out

00:33:40 ◼   ► or perhaps tell Marco the answer

00:33:42 ◼   ► to all of his USB charging woes, please?

00:33:44 ◼   ► - We can try.

00:33:45 ◼   ► We got a big authoritative answer

00:33:47 ◼   ► from our friend of the show, Jonathan Dietz,

00:33:49 ◼   ► whose name I hope I'm pronouncing correctly,

00:33:51 ◼   ► as he's written in so many times.

00:33:53 ◼   ► Here is quoting from his email.

00:33:55 ◼   ► The short answer to Marco's question about why USB type C chargers don't work with the

00:34:00 ◼   ► Genki accessories is that they're non-compliant.

00:34:04 ◼   ► There are, however, chargers that might work with these devices anyway.

00:34:07 ◼   ► So that's quoting from him.

00:34:08 ◼   ► And then he wrote a big long email explaining it was way too long for me to put it in the

00:34:12 ◼   ► show so I'm trying to summarize it.

00:34:14 ◼   ► Forgive me if I'm getting any of this wrong.

00:34:15 ◼   ► I did not run it past him.

00:34:17 ◼   ► But here's my summary of what was in the email.

00:34:19 ◼   ► So here's the timeline.

00:34:22 ◼   ► In the absence of relevant standards, Apple, Samsung, Qualcomm, and others came up with

00:34:26 ◼   ► their own proprietary charging standards for multiple voltages and currents over USB cables.

00:34:31 ◼   ► They just did what they felt like they were doing, mostly involved series of resistors

00:34:34 ◼   ► and depending on the resistance you'd get different voltage and amps and all, they all

00:34:37 ◼   ► came up with their own thing.

00:34:39 ◼   ► This is proprietary charging standards, they just did what they wanted.

00:34:42 ◼   ► Tons of manufacturers made chargers that work with these various proprietary systems, which

00:34:46 ◼   ► makes sense once Apple, Samsung, and all these other companies do it, then people will just

00:34:50 ◼   ► copy and say, okay, if you buy this, it will work with your, you know, thing, right?

00:34:54 ◼   ► With the release of version 1.3 of the USB Type-C specification on July 14th, 2017, proprietary

00:35:02 ◼   ► charging was deprecated.

00:35:04 ◼   ► Apple promptly replaced all of its Type-C power bricks with new compliant models.

00:35:09 ◼   ► So that, you know, it used to be these proprietary ones were sort of under the umbrella of the

00:35:12 ◼   ► USB thing, but when they updated for Type-C spec, said, no, no, no, we have our own charging

00:35:17 ◼   ► thing.

00:35:18 ◼   ► This is what it is.

00:35:19 ◼   ► crap that you were doing before in the wild west that's out and then the important part is that

00:35:23 ◼   ► apple said okay now from this point forward we're not all of our charging brick things that come are

00:35:29 ◼   ► not going to support the whole proprietary stuff if you have a usb type c brick type thing uh you

00:35:36 ◼   ► know or a device that will charge from a type a charger but not a type c one it's probably using

00:35:41 ◼   ► a proprietary charging mode if you can get your hands on an apple 29 watt 61 watt 87 or 87 watt

00:35:48 ◼   ► USB-C power adapter sold prior to the USB type C 1.3 spec changeover. That means one of those bricks

00:35:55 ◼   ► that was sold before 2018, it might be a universal charger. So that's the answer. Why doesn't this

00:36:01 ◼   ► thing work? Why can't they make one or whatever? The thing you have is probably used for proprietary

00:36:05 ◼   ► charging method and you're probably trying to use a more modern Apple charging brick because you have

00:36:08 ◼   ► modern stuff. So here going back to Jonathan, his conclusion, Marco's issue has nothing to do with

00:36:13 ◼   ► with USB power delivery as that specification

00:36:16 ◼   ► doesn't even come into play here.

00:36:18 ◼   ► It's related to buying non-certified, non-compliant crap

00:36:20 ◼   ► made by people who are too lazy to copy

00:36:22 ◼   ► a working USB Type-C design from sometime

00:36:25 ◼   ► in the past five years.

00:36:26 ◼   ► So that's the solution.

00:36:27 ◼   ► If you wanna find something that will charge it,

00:36:28 ◼   ► apparently if you can find one of those old Apple chargers

00:36:31 ◼   ► before they remove support for quote unquote

00:36:33 ◼   ► proprietary charging, that will work.

00:36:35 ◼   ► - Yeah, and apparently the root of the issue here

00:36:38 ◼   ► is when they designed USB-C power delivery,

00:36:40 ◼   ► keep in mind that power delivery,

00:36:42 ◼   ► Not only does it support a whole bunch of different voltages

00:36:45 ◼   ► and levels of current across a pretty wide range

00:36:48 ◼   ► and up to a very substantial amount of power,

00:36:51 ◼   ► but it also supports powering things bi-directionally.

00:36:54 ◼   ► Like the cable can't tell which end is the source

00:36:57 ◼   ► without these protocols being followed that are more

00:37:00 ◼   ► advanced than old dumb power.

00:37:01 ◼   ► And so you wouldn't want to have the cable just always pass

00:37:04 ◼   ► power without knowing what it is because it could be passing

00:37:07 ◼   ► power in the wrong direction.

00:37:09 ◼   ► And that could do things like start fires in worst case

00:37:12 ◼   ► So, they have this basic method where,

00:37:15 ◼   ► and forgive me if I'm getting the details wrong,

00:37:16 ◼   ► but basically, USB-C ports can optionally put

00:37:21 ◼   ► like one resistor across two pins,

00:37:24 ◼   ► and that will tell the cable,

00:37:26 ◼   ► treat this like the old dumb charger thing.

00:37:30 ◼   ► So, if you have that one resistor in place,

00:37:33 ◼   ► a USB-C port can take power from any PD supply,

00:37:38 ◼   ► and it'll just send it old five volt,

00:37:40 ◼   ► you know, 2.4 amp or whatever power,

00:37:42 ◼   ► just like all the old USB-A stuff.

00:37:45 ◼   ► And so all these devices that we have

00:37:47 ◼   ► that are coming out that have USB-C holes

00:37:50 ◼   ► that do not charge from USB-C power bricks

00:37:52 ◼   ► could have fixed that problem apparently

00:37:54 ◼   ► with the addition of one resistor.

00:37:57 ◼   ► And they just don't or didn't.

00:37:59 ◼   ► - That's what he's saying about janky non-compliant stuff

00:38:01 ◼   ► that didn't copy a working design

00:38:03 ◼   ► from sometime in the past five years.

00:38:05 ◼   ► - Yes, so now we know the reason.

00:38:07 ◼   ► Unfortunately, that's not really a solution,

00:38:11 ◼   ► and it sounds like there probably really can't

00:38:14 ◼   ► be a good solution.

00:38:15 ◼   ► - Well, what about the using the old Apple Power Bricks

00:38:17 ◼   ► before they remove support for proprietary charging?

00:38:19 ◼   ► 'Cause that will work with your janky old crap

00:38:21 ◼   ► because those Power Bricks will, they can do PD,

00:38:23 ◼   ► but they can also do all the old weird proprietary ones

00:38:26 ◼   ► from Apple, Samsung, Qualcomm,

00:38:27 ◼   ► 'cause they were just in the,

00:38:28 ◼   ► before the standardization and before PD was finalized,

00:38:33 ◼   ► all the bricks supported all the weird proprietary stuff

00:38:35 ◼   ► because they just wanted to be able to work.

00:38:37 ◼   ► So if you can find one of those old bricks, it should work.

00:38:40 ◼   ► - I think the process of trying to find

00:38:44 ◼   ► an Apple-powered adapter that's from like

00:38:47 ◼   ► before a certain manufacturing year

00:38:49 ◼   ► that doesn't even have probably a separate SKU or anything,

00:38:52 ◼   ► I don't think that process is gonna be worth it.

00:38:54 ◼   ► - Also here is another suggestion from Conrad Poz,

00:38:58 ◼   ► if that's how you pronounce his last name.

00:38:59 ◼   ► My fix for dumb USB-C charge ports

00:39:02 ◼   ► is to buy a cheap USB-A to USB-C adapter

00:39:05 ◼   ► and attach it to the USB-A end of the charge cable.

00:39:08 ◼   ► Then you have a C to A to C cable

00:39:10 ◼   ► that will work with any USB-C charger

00:39:12 ◼   ► even though a C to C cable won't.

00:39:13 ◼   ► I don't know if that would work,

00:39:15 ◼   ► but it sounds like a fun dongle to try.

00:39:17 ◼   ► - Yes, and a few people wrote in to basically say,

00:39:19 ◼   ► 'cause you can get cheap dongles that not only do

00:39:22 ◼   ► what we often had in the Apple world since 2016,

00:39:25 ◼   ► which is take a USB-C port and be able to plug

00:39:28 ◼   ► a USB-A device into it, but you also have little dongles

00:39:31 ◼   ► that go the other direction.

00:39:33 ◼   ► take a USB-A port and make a USB-C port out of it

00:39:36 ◼   ► to be able to plug in something with USB-C into a USB-A port

00:39:39 ◼   ► and so if you just stick two of these together,

00:39:42 ◼   ► so it goes C to A to C or you do the same thing

00:39:45 ◼   ► with the cable like what this person was writing and saying,

00:39:47 ◼   ► it will basically make a directional USB-A buffer thing

00:39:52 ◼   ► so that it will work.

00:39:56 ◼   ► The downside is that it'll only obviously work

00:39:58 ◼   ► in that one direction so whatever this cable mess

00:40:00 ◼   ► you're making with this dongle thing

00:40:01 ◼   ► and it'll become directional,

00:40:02 ◼   ► that's fine for many cases.

00:40:04 ◼   ► And also it would be limited if it follows all the specs,

00:40:09 ◼   ► which I hope it does,

00:40:10 ◼   ► it would be limited to only the lower wattages

00:40:13 ◼   ► supported by USB-A charging.

00:40:15 ◼   ► So honestly, that's not a bad idea.

00:40:18 ◼   ► So I think I'm gonna try that maybe,

00:40:21 ◼   ► just to like keep some of these in my travel bag

00:40:23 ◼   ► in case I need them.

00:40:24 ◼   ► But ultimately, many people wrote in to basically say,

00:40:28 ◼   ► Just have a charging brick that has A and C holes

00:40:32 ◼   ► and have some A to C cables.

00:40:34 ◼   ► Which, that's not the answer,

00:40:37 ◼   ► but that is probably the only solution.

00:40:39 ◼   ► Like that's not at all what I was asking for,

00:40:42 ◼   ► but that is probably what I should do.

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00:42:40 ◼   ► our show.

00:42:45 ◼   ► So we have some more reviews and things from the M2 Pro and the M2 Max, most especially

00:42:51 ◼   ► from Max Tech. So John, can you tell me about what was it? That Vadim? How do you pronounce

00:42:57 ◼   ► his name? Do you know?

00:42:58 ◼   ► Vadim, yeah. Yeah. So the Max Tech folks always do tests on these things. I just wanted to

00:43:03 ◼   ► have some concrete support for what we discussed on past episodes with the M2 Pro and Max products.

00:43:09 ◼   ► They are exactly what they appeared to be. The silicon system on a chip is made on the

00:43:16 ◼   ► same process node size as the predecessors.

00:43:19 ◼   ► They're a little bit bigger.

00:43:21 ◼   ► That results in systems that use a little bit more power, they get a little bit hotter,

00:43:27 ◼   ► and the fans run at a little bit higher RPM and that is all borne out by the testing.

00:43:31 ◼   ► Not big amounts, because it is, you know, the M2 Pro and Max are a little bit bigger

00:43:35 ◼   ► than the M1 Pro and Max.

00:43:36 ◼   ► They have a little bit more stuff in them.

00:43:37 ◼   ► They run at higher clock speeds, the fans go at higher RPMs, not ridiculously higher,

00:43:42 ◼   ► Like, you know, numerically it does look higher, but the sound levels seem to be similar.

00:43:46 ◼   ► But you know, that's why I thought the M1 ones, they had so much overhead, but the M2

00:43:54 ◼   ► ones eat some of that overhead.

00:43:55 ◼   ► In exchange for having higher clocks, for getting better performance obviously, it's

00:43:59 ◼   ► exactly what you thought it would be.

00:44:01 ◼   ► So there's no real surprises in there.

00:44:02 ◼   ► The cooling systems are similar in both machines.

00:44:06 ◼   ► The temperatures are higher.

00:44:07 ◼   ► So Apple is pushing the innards of the new M2, Pro M2 Max products harder than they were

00:44:13 ◼   ► pushed in the M1 variants.

00:44:15 ◼   ► They're clock tired, they're allowed to get warmer in the course of normal running.

00:44:21 ◼   ► It doesn't seem to be any excessive throttling any more than there was in the previous ones,

00:44:25 ◼   ► but just FYI, those M2 products are just a little bit more than the M1 ones.

00:44:31 ◼   ► So if you really, really care about being super silent and super cool and you don't

00:44:36 ◼   ► care about that 20% of performance,

00:44:38 ◼   ► buy an M1 Pro or an M1 Max.

00:44:41 ◼   ► - And then tell me about their new Ultra Mega clock speeds.

00:44:46 ◼   ► - Oh yeah, this is, you know, just to put numbers on this.

00:44:48 ◼   ► So the M2 Max was able to clock up to 3.68 gigahertz

00:44:52 ◼   ► on the 16-inch MacBook Pro,

00:44:54 ◼   ► and it got the highest score they've ever seen

00:44:56 ◼   ► for a single-core, breaking 2,000 on Geekbench.

00:44:59 ◼   ► So yeah, for all of that extra noise and extra heat

00:45:02 ◼   ► and all of that, you know,

00:45:03 ◼   ► for that tiny bit of extra heat,

00:45:04 ◼   ► for that tiny bit of extra noise,

00:45:05 ◼   ► to that tiny bit of extra clock speed

00:45:07 ◼   ► and tiny bit of extra power,

00:45:08 ◼   ► you get the highest scores they've ever seen.

00:45:10 ◼   ► So if that's what you care about,

00:45:12 ◼   ► then the M2 ones are the machines for you.

00:45:14 ◼   ► - Marco, you have not ordered any M2 computers as yet?

00:45:17 ◼   ► - I mean, I have the M2 MacBook Air from last summer,

00:45:20 ◼   ► but I don't remember what that was.

00:45:21 ◼   ► But no, none of the M2 Pro and Max machines.

00:45:24 ◼   ► I'm still so incredibly happy with my 16 inch.

00:45:28 ◼   ► It's just wonderful.

00:45:30 ◼   ► And while I know that Xcode is 25% faster

00:45:35 ◼   ► with the new ones and that is tempting,

00:45:37 ◼   ► but it's tempting every time I do a build.

00:45:40 ◼   ► (laughs)

00:45:41 ◼   ► But I'm just so happy with this.

00:45:44 ◼   ► I love that it runs a little bit cooler

00:45:47 ◼   ► and quieter than the new ones.

00:45:49 ◼   ► I still prefer that trade off for now.

00:45:52 ◼   ► So I think I'm gonna skip this generation

00:45:53 ◼   ► and maybe consider, you know, we'll see what happens

00:45:55 ◼   ► with the M3 series of chips or whatever comes after that.

00:45:59 ◼   ► We are scheduled for a process node shrink,

00:46:02 ◼   ► probably with the next, with the M3 generation.

00:46:04 ◼   ► So we'll see what happens there.

00:46:06 ◼   ► Or we'll see if I'm still doing desktop laptop.

00:46:09 ◼   ► Maybe the Mac Pro or whatever will tempt me,

00:46:12 ◼   ► but probably not.

00:46:13 ◼   ► So we'll see what happens.

00:46:14 ◼   ► But no, I'm very happy with my M1.

00:46:16 ◼   ► And I think anybody with an M1 Pro or Macs,

00:46:19 ◼   ► MacBook Pro or Mac Studio or anything,

00:46:22 ◼   ► I think you don't have much reason

00:46:25 ◼   ► to be envious of these new models.

00:46:27 ◼   ► If I was buying new, sure, of course I'd get the newest thing.

00:46:29 ◼   ► If I needed it, sure, I'd get it.

00:46:30 ◼   ► But the ones from a year and a half ago

00:46:34 ◼   ► are still amazing and I'm not motivated to upgrade.

00:46:39 ◼   ► - Yep, I still love my M1 MacBook Pro,

00:46:41 ◼   ► which is what I'm using to talk to you fine folks right now.

00:46:45 ◼   ► Frank Styler had a very interesting piece of feedback.

00:46:49 ◼   ► Frank writes, "As the topic of how do you back up

00:46:51 ◼   ► "your iCloud photos regularly comes up on your show,

00:46:53 ◼   ► "and I've recently started using iCloud more and more

00:46:55 ◼   ► "and did not like any of the available options,

00:46:57 ◼   ► "I decided to take things into my own hands.

00:47:00 ◼   ► "About six months ago, I started working

00:47:01 ◼   ► "on my open source project, iCloud Photo Sync,

00:47:03 ◼   ► that allows you to pull your whole library into the native file system.

00:47:07 ◼   ► There's even a Docker version, so Casey can run it on a Synology, Pi, Mac mini,

00:47:10 ◼   ► et cetera. Once synced, you can use the backup service of your choice

00:47:14 ◼   ► to persist everything securely, because this is a sync program,

00:47:17 ◼   ► not a backup program.

00:47:18 ◼   ► Please note I'm doing this in my free time, and only thanks to the time

00:47:21 ◼   ► during my Christmas break, I was finally able to reach version 0.1.

00:47:25 ◼   ► I am very happy with the project.

00:47:27 ◼   ► I feel the sync algorithm is stable.

00:47:28 ◼   ► However, did not yet encounter a library the size of John's.

00:47:32 ◼   ► In the future, I will be able to support shared photo libraries,

00:47:35 ◼   ► but haven't gotten around to implementing it yet.

00:47:36 ◼   ► So I've not tried this myself, but I went looking

00:47:41 ◼   ► around the GitHub repository.

00:47:44 ◼   ► And it looks pretty slick, just based on the documentation

00:47:47 ◼   ► stuff I looked at.

00:47:48 ◼   ► It looks pretty, pretty slick.

00:47:50 ◼   ► And this is something that I don't

00:47:52 ◼   ► know if I necessarily have a need for this because

00:47:55 ◼   ► of my absolutely bananas ingestion system

00:47:58 ◼   ► that I've been using for years.

00:48:00 ◼   ► But if I wasn't me and I was any normal human, I would definitely be taking a look at this.

00:48:05 ◼   ► Related to this, I didn't put it in here, but we have a bunch of AskATP questions that I didn't

00:48:10 ◼   ► bother putting in because I felt like we'd answer this more recently. But people keep asking,

00:48:13 ◼   ► I want to back up my iCloud photo library, but I don't either don't want to have or don't currently

00:48:19 ◼   ► have a Mac where I can do the option in Apple's Photos app that says download originals just

00:48:25 ◼   ► because they don't have the disk space. Like my library is too big. It can't fit on my Mac,

00:48:28 ◼   ► but can I back it up?

00:48:29 ◼   ► And the answer is no.

00:48:31 ◼   ► You have to have the data to back it up.

00:48:33 ◼   ► But with something like this,

00:48:35 ◼   ► you know, the selection of Macs that you have in your house

00:48:39 ◼   ► no longer need be the limiting factor.

00:48:41 ◼   ► Assuming this thing works -- again, I didn't try it either,

00:48:43 ◼   ► but assuming this thing works,

00:48:44 ◼   ► open source project that runs in a Docker container,

00:48:47 ◼   ► you could rent an instance from Linode

00:48:49 ◼   ► for a couple bucks a month, run this little thing on it,

00:48:51 ◼   ► pull everything down there.

00:48:52 ◼   ► You know, like, there are solutions

00:48:54 ◼   ► that don't involve running a Mac all the time.

00:48:55 ◼   ► People are also asking, "Do I have to leave my user

00:48:57 ◼   ► you're logged in to my account the whole time,

00:48:59 ◼   ► do I have to leave the Photos app open?

00:49:01 ◼   ► The answer to those is no,

00:49:02 ◼   ► you don't need to leave Photos open.

00:49:03 ◼   ► I don't think you need to be logged in,

00:49:05 ◼   ► but I haven't tested that.

00:49:06 ◼   ► But either way, messing with that and worrying

00:49:09 ◼   ► that you're not, that it's not pulling everything down

00:49:13 ◼   ► that you want to be pulled down,

00:49:14 ◼   ► this takes the guesswork out of that.

00:49:16 ◼   ► It's a thing, you run it when you wanna run it,

00:49:18 ◼   ► it syncs the contents, and then you point

00:49:20 ◼   ► whatever backup system you have at that,

00:49:22 ◼   ► and then that backs it up.

00:49:23 ◼   ► It's much more straightforward than trying to divine

00:49:27 ◼   ► the behavior of Apple's completely faceless,

00:49:29 ◼   ► completely uncontrollable sync services,

00:49:31 ◼   ► which we all love to hate,

00:49:33 ◼   ► 'cause there's no way to tell it to stop,

00:49:35 ◼   ► no way to tell it to start, no way to say do it now,

00:49:38 ◼   ► no way to check whether it's done anything,

00:49:40 ◼   ► and all these, even if we were to figure out experimentally,

00:49:43 ◼   ► yes, it runs when you're not logged in,

00:49:45 ◼   ► yes, you don't have to run photos,

00:49:46 ◼   ► that can change in a point update, right?

00:49:48 ◼   ► You can't rely on that.

00:49:49 ◼   ► So for backups, it's much better to have something

00:49:51 ◼   ► that you're relatively sure about,

00:49:53 ◼   ► like for example, the feature in Apple Photos

00:49:55 ◼   ► that says Download Original, is that straightforward?

00:49:57 ◼   ► Maybe it doesn't work because of a bug,

00:49:58 ◼   ► but its intention is clear, right?

00:50:00 ◼   ► And it will tell you if it runs out of disk space,

00:50:02 ◼   ► like disk is full, couldn't download the stuff or whatever.

00:50:05 ◼   ► And this command line thing, similarly, if it works,

00:50:08 ◼   ► you have total control over it.

00:50:09 ◼   ► So that's what I would suggest,

00:50:11 ◼   ► not trying to play guess whether it's downloading stuff

00:50:16 ◼   ► when I'm not logged in or whatever.

00:50:17 ◼   ► - All right, and then very briefly,

00:50:20 ◼   ► a handful of listeners reached out

00:50:21 ◼   ► with regard to apps for small kids.

00:50:24 ◼   ► First of all, a few people said Khan Academy Kids, K-H-A-N.

00:50:29 ◼   ► It's kind of like ABC Mouse, but without the fees.

00:50:31 ◼   ► I put that on our kiddo iPad, and Mikayla's

00:50:33 ◼   ► been playing with it a little bit,

00:50:34 ◼   ► and she seems to really like it.

00:50:36 ◼   ► Also for iOS developers, Andy Matuszak--

00:50:39 ◼   ► I believe I pronounced that correctly--

00:50:41 ◼   ► who is formerly one of the big cheeses on UIKit

00:50:45 ◼   ► and did a lot of really great WWDC sessions many years back.

00:50:48 ◼   ► He was at Khan Academy in their R&D department for a few years.

00:50:52 ◼   ► So he is an alumni.

00:50:53 ◼   ► I'm pretty sure he's not there anymore.

00:50:55 ◼   ► And then speaking of ABCmouse, this is from Will,

00:50:59 ◼   ► and Will writes, "With regard to ABCmouse,

00:51:00 ◼   ► several public libraries in the US offer free accounts

00:51:02 ◼   ► if you have a library card.

00:51:03 ◼   ► The Washington DC library is one that comes to mind.

00:51:06 ◼   ► Some of these libraries even offer library cards

00:51:08 ◼   ► to non-residents for fees,

00:51:09 ◼   ► sometimes or sometimes even for free,

00:51:11 ◼   ► for much less than what ABCmouse charges monthly.

00:51:14 ◼   ► By using a library card,

00:51:15 ◼   ► you also get access to all the library's

00:51:17 ◼   ► other online resources as well."

00:51:18 ◼   ► So you might want to check that out

00:51:20 ◼   ► if this is of interest to you.

00:51:23 ◼   ► So gentlemen, apparently we're all gonna be getting

00:51:25 ◼   ► foldable iPads with carbon fiber kickstands next year, baby.

00:51:29 ◼   ► Who's excited?

00:51:31 ◼   ► - 'Cause if there's one thing I wanted carbon fiber on,

00:51:33 ◼   ► it's the kickstand to a tablet,

00:51:35 ◼   ► because you know what it's like

00:51:36 ◼   ► when those kickstands are heavy.

00:51:38 ◼   ► - All right, right.

00:51:39 ◼   ► I don't know what to say about this.

00:51:42 ◼   ► - This is a fun rumor along multiple axes.

00:51:44 ◼   ► So we've talked about foldable devices many times.

00:51:46 ◼   ► There are many foldable devices shipping.

00:51:48 ◼   ► I think they're mostly phones,

00:51:49 ◼   ► although I think there's like some tablet-sized ones.

00:51:51 ◼   ► The magic of screen technology allows us to fold them

00:51:54 ◼   ► in various ways.

00:51:55 ◼   ► So this is a foldable rumor.

00:51:58 ◼   ► It's a carbon fiber rumor.

00:51:59 ◼   ► We always love them because we always want Apple

00:52:01 ◼   ► to experiment with new materials

00:52:03 ◼   ► 'cause they've done aluminum glass for a long time.

00:52:04 ◼   ► Aluminum glass are great,

00:52:05 ◼   ► but maybe they could be something better, lighter, stronger,

00:52:08 ◼   ► more durable, all those things.

00:52:11 ◼   ► And then kickstand, let's throw that in too

00:52:13 ◼   ► because the iPad does not really have a kickstand

00:52:15 ◼   ► in the Microsoft Surface sense,

00:52:17 ◼   ► as in like a panel that folds out at various angles, right?

00:52:20 ◼   ► You could say the little triangle origami thing

00:52:23 ◼   ► that you make out of the Apple, whatever they're called,

00:52:25 ◼   ► smart cover things is kind of like a kickstand,

00:52:28 ◼   ► but it's not really.

00:52:29 ◼   ► A kickstand is more like a panel that hinges out

00:52:31 ◼   ► from the back of the thing at various angles.

00:52:34 ◼   ► And so then this rumor is that the kickstand

00:52:37 ◼   ► would be made of carbon fiber.

00:52:38 ◼   ► This rumor doesn't make a lot of sense to me

00:52:42 ◼   ► on multiple axes, but the collection of rumors

00:52:47 ◼   ► related to Apple and foldable stuff

00:52:50 ◼   ► continue to dribble out over the years.

00:52:53 ◼   ► Apple is certainly thinking about that,

00:52:56 ◼   ► experimenting with that,

00:52:58 ◼   ► but I kind of run into the same question

00:53:00 ◼   ► I always have about foldable things is,

00:53:02 ◼   ► what advantage do I as a customer get

00:53:04 ◼   ► for having a foldable thing

00:53:05 ◼   ► other than it being cool and sci-fi-ish?

00:53:07 ◼   ► And it's really difficult for me to answer that question,

00:53:10 ◼   ► especially with something like an iPad,

00:53:12 ◼   ► because iPads are big,

00:53:14 ◼   ► and if I could fold it to be half the size,

00:53:15 ◼   ► now it's half the size, but still pretty big.

00:53:18 ◼   ► In exchange, I've got to deal with all of the things that come along with folding.

00:53:24 ◼   ► Is it going to be creased in the middle?

00:53:26 ◼   ► Is it going to be bulky?

00:53:27 ◼   ► How sharp can that curve be?

00:53:30 ◼   ► There's a bunch of rumors related to that in here as well about who's going to be supplying

00:53:34 ◼   ► the ultra-thin cover glass that could be used on the company's foldable products.

00:53:41 ◼   ► That would be cool.

00:53:42 ◼   ► Instead of having to be plastic, I'd have to be glass.

00:53:46 ◼   ► the radius on that bend or whatever.

00:53:48 ◼   ► Just a lot of information surrounding all of these things here and I still can't make

00:53:53 ◼   ► any sense out of it in terms of the kind of product that I would want to buy.

00:54:01 ◼   ► The pitch has not yet been made to me for why I would want an iPad that folds.

00:54:06 ◼   ► I think the pitch is obvious.

00:54:08 ◼   ► It's that you can have your cake and eat it too.

00:54:10 ◼   ► You can have something that's as pocketable as an iPad mini.

00:54:14 ◼   ► not pocketable, but you know what I mean.

00:54:16 ◼   ► - Well, that's what I'm saying,

00:54:17 ◼   ► like it's not, because it's half the size, right?

00:54:18 ◼   ► If it folds in one direction, it's half, right?

00:54:21 ◼   ► It's twice as thick, but half the length and width, right?

00:54:24 ◼   ► And I don't think with an iPad size thing

00:54:26 ◼   ► that buys me anything.

00:54:27 ◼   ► You've gone from really big to still pretty big, you know?

00:54:31 ◼   ► Like, it doesn't become pocketable.

00:54:33 ◼   ► - I mean, maybe you could fit in a jacket pocket,

00:54:36 ◼   ► maybe a big jacket, I don't like, I don't know.

00:54:39 ◼   ► To me, I have yet to see any foldable screen device

00:54:44 ◼   ► that really nails like, okay, that was worth it.

00:54:48 ◼   ► - The foldable phone that folds vertically,

00:54:50 ◼   ► I don't know, there's a whole bunch of these,

00:54:51 ◼   ► I know Quinn Nelson's got one of them he likes,

00:54:52 ◼   ► or that I can kind of see, I feel like that does,

00:54:56 ◼   ► what we're talking about is like a vertical phone

00:54:58 ◼   ► that folds down so it's more like a little square.

00:55:01 ◼   ► I think that does make it more pocketable,

00:55:04 ◼   ► especially with big phones than when it's vertical,

00:55:06 ◼   ► because phones already fit in your pocket,

00:55:09 ◼   ► and usually the limiting factor for pocketability

00:55:11 ◼   ► is not the thickness, so trading,

00:55:14 ◼   ► I want to be twice as thick,

00:55:15 ◼   ► but then half the length and half the width,

00:55:18 ◼   ► makes sense for a trade-off if pocketability

00:55:21 ◼   ► is your limiting factor.

00:55:23 ◼   ► But in exchange for that with the phone thing,

00:55:25 ◼   ► now you gotta constantly be folding it and unfolding it.

00:55:27 ◼   ► And unlike the flip phones, it's not as cool to do.

00:55:30 ◼   ► Remember when you have flip phones,

00:55:31 ◼   ► you can do the little flippy thing?

00:55:32 ◼   ► - Yeah, let me just flip up my iPad, whack.

00:55:34 ◼   ► - Right, and then you snap it closed

00:55:36 ◼   ► and everything like that.

00:55:37 ◼   ► It's not quite the same.

00:55:38 ◼   ► If you don't think that's a big deal,

00:55:41 ◼   ► we all just take our phones out and look at them

00:55:43 ◼   ► and put them back in,

00:55:44 ◼   ► there's no folding and unfolding process in there.

00:55:45 ◼   ► Adding that step is a complication that you really,

00:55:49 ◼   ► like that trade off,

00:55:50 ◼   ► you really need to be like pocket limited.

00:55:52 ◼   ► Maybe if you're a woman who's constantly stuck buying clothes

00:55:57 ◼   ► that have no pockets on them,

00:55:58 ◼   ► that is your limiting factor, in which case, thumbs up.

00:56:01 ◼   ► But remember, we're not talking about a phone here,

00:56:03 ◼   ► we're talking about an iPad.

00:56:05 ◼   ► iPad is never going to be pocketable,

00:56:07 ◼   ► even if you're wearing overalls,

00:56:08 ◼   ► especially in someone in the room

00:56:09 ◼   ► like 20 inch foldable iPad that's still pretty big once you fold it like no so

00:56:16 ◼   ► here's here's the other angle in this and it's kind of goes into the kickstand

00:56:19 ◼   ► thing what if it folds and the horizontal part could be a keyboard and

00:56:23 ◼   ► then the vertical part is the screen sure I guess I don't know if people are

00:56:28 ◼   ► jazzed to use an iPad with it with an on-screen keyboard in an L shape it

00:56:32 ◼   ► seems like people like using iPads with physical keyboards as like little mini

00:56:36 ◼   ► floppy laptops but on-screen key, you know, you know what I'm saying, like make it like

00:56:40 ◼   ► a laptop but have, you know, one half of the screen be the keyboard part and then, you

00:56:44 ◼   ► know, it could change it to a tablet part and do, you know, like I get how that could

00:56:48 ◼   ► work, but it doesn't appeal to me. It's not solving a problem I feel like I have with

00:56:52 ◼   ► the iPad and it is bringing a bunch of other weird stuff with it.

00:56:55 ◼   ► >> Yeah, I tend to agree.

00:56:56 ◼   ► >> I mean, that's kind of the problem with all foldable stuff you've seen so far is that

00:57:00 ◼   ► it doesn't really seem to solve problems that we have and it might be a fun novelty here

00:57:05 ◼   ► and there, especially maybe on phones, but I just,

00:57:08 ◼   ► I don't see it happening.

00:57:09 ◼   ► Like, suppose we succeed in creating a foldable tablet

00:57:13 ◼   ► or laptop-sized device.

00:57:15 ◼   ► What have we made?

00:57:16 ◼   ► We've made a worse laptop.

00:57:18 ◼   ► Like, in every way it's worse.

00:57:20 ◼   ► It's more fragile, it's more expensive, the keyboard sucks.

00:57:23 ◼   ► Like, I don't, and then what have we gained by that?

00:57:25 ◼   ► Well, you could, I guess, unfold into a flat screen

00:57:28 ◼   ► and have a big screen with no keyboard.

00:57:30 ◼   ► I don't know, I don't know.

00:57:32 ◼   ► I don't know why this is something that we are focused

00:57:35 ◼   ► on so much in the tech world as being some cool new thing

00:57:38 ◼   ► on the horizon.

00:57:39 ◼   ► - I mean, it is cool.

00:57:40 ◼   ► That's why you see stories about it.

00:57:43 ◼   ► - But it's one of those, it's cool in the CES sense.

00:57:47 ◼   ► It's cool in the sense that, wow, that's a fun demo

00:57:49 ◼   ► to see at a trade show.

00:57:51 ◼   ► But it's not a product you'd actually want to live with

00:57:53 ◼   ► for the most part for most people.

00:57:55 ◼   ► - Some people do like it with phones.

00:57:56 ◼   ► So let me just show you some of the highlights

00:57:57 ◼   ► of how all over the place these rumors are, right?

00:57:59 ◼   ► So this is Ming-Chi Kuo saying that he was, quote,

00:58:03 ◼   ► positive that the foldable device will arrive in 2024 but did not provide a more specific

00:58:08 ◼   ► time frame. Then another bit of rumor here from CCS Insight says that Apple plans to use a foldable

00:58:14 ◼   ► iPad in 2024 as a practice run for foldable technology before adopting it on the iPhone.

00:58:19 ◼   ► Again, I think a foldable iPhone makes way more sense than a foldable iPad. Doing a weird product

00:58:25 ◼   ► as a practice run doesn't seem like, you know, a thing, but whatever. And this is Ross Young talking

00:58:32 ◼   ► talking about the 20 inch size.

00:58:34 ◼   ► Young expects the device to hit the market

00:58:36 ◼   ► a lot later in 2026 or 2027.

00:58:39 ◼   ► Well, that's a daring rumor 'cause it's way out

00:58:40 ◼   ► in the future.

00:58:41 ◼   ► Then LG with the ultra thin cover glass.

00:58:44 ◼   ► Ross Young said he is expecting multiple OLED iPads in 2024.

00:58:49 ◼   ► Now we're talking.

00:58:50 ◼   ► I've wanted an OLED on the iPad for a long time.

00:58:52 ◼   ► That has nothing to do with foldable.

00:58:53 ◼   ► That just has to do with a higher quality screen

00:58:55 ◼   ► with really good blacks.

00:58:56 ◼   ► But Ross Young said he's heard nothing

00:58:59 ◼   ► about a foldable iPad in the same year.

00:59:01 ◼   ► And here's another update from Mark Gurman.

00:59:04 ◼   ► He says that he has not heard anything

00:59:05 ◼   ► about a foldable iPad in 2024,

00:59:07 ◼   ► which he expects to be the year of the OLED iPad Pro models

00:59:10 ◼   ► and spec bumps for the entry-level iPad and iPad mini.

00:59:12 ◼   ► So I want to believe the more conservative rumors

00:59:17 ◼   ► that just say OLED iPads are coming,

00:59:19 ◼   ► 'cause that is a straightforward upgrade to iPads

00:59:23 ◼   ► with a better screen, something that I really wanted

00:59:25 ◼   ► 'cause I watched tons of TV on my iPad

00:59:27 ◼   ► and an OLED screen will be better.

00:59:29 ◼   ► I also kind of believe that Apple has been working

00:59:33 ◼   ► on foldable iPhones for a long time.

00:59:35 ◼   ► It would be irresponsible for them

00:59:36 ◼   ► not to be looking into that.

00:59:38 ◼   ► There are foldable phones on the market

00:59:40 ◼   ► and there have been for a long time

00:59:41 ◼   ► and some people like them for the reasons I described before.

00:59:43 ◼   ► You gotta at least look into it on the iPhone.

00:59:45 ◼   ► Maybe it'll just be one model that's foldable.

00:59:47 ◼   ► Maybe it'll be like the return of the mini

00:59:49 ◼   ► is like a thing that folds up or whatever.

00:59:51 ◼   ► Sure, thumbs up.

00:59:52 ◼   ► Foldable iPad rumors

00:59:53 ◼   ► and especially the carbon fiber kickstand.

00:59:56 ◼   ► I honestly have no idea where that's coming from

00:59:58 ◼   ► but I suppose stranger things have happened.

01:00:01 ◼   ► - Yeah, I think it was on upgrade

01:00:03 ◼   ► that Jason and Mike had said a couple of interesting things.

01:00:07 ◼   ► First of all, where is the fold?

01:00:09 ◼   ► And I forget the terminology for this,

01:00:10 ◼   ► but I think they described it as innie or outie.

01:00:13 ◼   ► So if the thing folds like a book, right,

01:00:16 ◼   ► and the display is on the inside,

01:00:18 ◼   ► then what do you do when it's folded up, right?

01:00:22 ◼   ► And this is what you were talking about

01:00:23 ◼   ► with the phone as well.

01:00:23 ◼   ► Like you have to unfold it to use it.

01:00:25 ◼   ► That doesn't seem terribly useful.

01:00:27 ◼   ► But then if it's the other direction where the display is,

01:00:29 ◼   ► but if it's in the, anyone though,

01:00:31 ◼   ► that's the way where you could use it as a laptop with a screen keyboard.

01:00:34 ◼   ► That's like you would keep it open in L shape and you would have it in front of

01:00:38 ◼   ► you. And now the fold is letting you use it as a mini laptop,

01:00:41 ◼   ► kind of type deal with a kickstand behind it.

01:00:43 ◼   ► Right. Whereas if you go out,

01:00:45 ◼   ► even that potentially means that you can use it folded, but that,

01:00:49 ◼   ► that still it's basically you have two, two modes,

01:00:53 ◼   ► completely folded or completely unfolded.

01:00:55 ◼   ► Yeah. And one screen is like, presumably you're touching it with your hands.

01:00:58 ◼   ► So it would have to be do like palm rejection on the side. That's not facing you.

01:01:01 ◼   ► So I don't know. I, and the other thing they said, maybe it was Jason,

01:01:05 ◼   ► but I don't remember for sure that I thought was really astute is this feels

01:01:09 ◼   ► like one of those things. If it's true, this feels like one of those things.

01:01:13 ◼   ► And actually this is also true of the headset,

01:01:15 ◼   ► which we'll probably be getting to in just a moment.

01:01:17 ◼   ► It feels like one of those things that we're just not seeing it. And Apple will,

01:01:22 ◼   ► you know, slap something on the table table and say, Oh,

01:01:24 ◼   ► This is it.

01:01:25 ◼   ► This is why you want this.

01:01:26 ◼   ► And all of us will be, oh, oh, yes, I do want that.

01:01:29 ◼   ► Yes, please.

01:01:30 ◼   ► I'll take three.

01:01:32 ◼   ► Or just as likely, Apple will never release this product

01:01:34 ◼   ► because they will look at it and say,

01:01:35 ◼   ► there is no reason for you to want this product.

01:01:37 ◼   ► So never mind.

01:01:38 ◼   ► But eventually, we'll get a foldable font.

01:01:40 ◼   ► Yep, yep, yep.

01:01:41 ◼   ► No, I agree with that.

01:01:42 ◼   ► So I agree with what you're saying, John, especially

01:01:45 ◼   ► that I don't get what the--

01:01:47 ◼   ► not the catch, but the draw is.

01:01:50 ◼   ► I don't understand why I want this in my life.

01:01:53 ◼   ► But, you know, Apple's gotta throw stuff against the wall,

01:01:56 ◼   ► see what sticks, and if this is something

01:01:58 ◼   ► they're throwing against the wall, then power to 'em.

01:02:01 ◼   ► - I think they should throw it against the wall

01:02:02 ◼   ► in Apple Park and only show it to us if it sticks.

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01:04:02 ◼   ► - All right, so let's talk headset.

01:04:07 ◼   ► Apple's Reality Pro AR VR goggles.

01:04:10 ◼   ► As Jon put in the show notes, I think,

01:04:14 ◼   ► what is it good for?

01:04:16 ◼   ► And we don't know, we really don't know.

01:04:18 ◼   ► But the information has information.

01:04:21 ◼   ► They're saying in short that,

01:04:23 ◼   ► "Hey, you're gonna be able to write apps and stuff

01:04:26 ◼   ► "without even writing code.

01:04:27 ◼   ► "It's gonna be amazing!"

01:04:29 ◼   ► What?

01:04:31 ◼   ► - Yeah, I think you should read this quote

01:04:33 ◼   ► because I think this is directly from the information

01:04:35 ◼   ► which broke this story.

01:04:37 ◼   ► 9to5Mac summarized it,

01:04:40 ◼   ► but I always like to try to go back to the source

01:04:42 ◼   ► to see what did they actually say?

01:04:45 ◼   ► because the 9 to 5 max story reads nonsensely.

01:04:48 ◼   ► Non coders will be able to write VR apps using Siri.

01:04:51 ◼   ► What?

01:04:53 ◼   ► - I can't even play music using Siri reliably.

01:04:55 ◼   ► Like how is that gonna work?

01:04:57 ◼   ► Yeah, I literally yesterday morning,

01:04:59 ◼   ► going downstairs after breakfast.

01:05:01 ◼   ► Hey Siri, stop.

01:05:03 ◼   ► It's playing music.

01:05:04 ◼   ► Wait, wait, hmm.

01:05:06 ◼   ► Wait, wait, delay.

01:05:09 ◼   ► One sec, wait.

01:05:10 ◼   ► The music's still playing this whole time.

01:05:11 ◼   ► Wait, wait.

01:05:13 ◼   ► Oh, something went wrong.

01:05:14 ◼   ► blasting music again, like it's just,

01:05:15 ◼   ► it can't even stop reliably, like for God's sake,

01:05:18 ◼   ► what are we, how are we going to write apps using Siri

01:05:22 ◼   ► when Siri still, what is it, 12 years after it was unveiled,

01:05:26 ◼   ► still can't do the basics reliably?

01:05:29 ◼   ► - Just before I came to record,

01:05:31 ◼   ► we were in the living room in the other room

01:05:33 ◼   ► where all my various devices listened to me is,

01:05:36 ◼   ► and we were, we wanted to know what year

01:05:40 ◼   ► the original Superman movie was released,

01:05:42 ◼   ► and I made my guess, which turned out to be right,

01:05:44 ◼   ► thank you very much.

01:05:46 ◼   ► But then of course, the other thing,

01:05:47 ◼   ► no one believes me, they need to double check

01:05:49 ◼   ► with the internet, right?

01:05:50 ◼   ► So I did my normal bake-off.

01:05:53 ◼   ► And I'm not good at speaking to devices,

01:05:55 ◼   ► I gave it a weird, strangely structured sentence.

01:05:58 ◼   ► I think I said something, and I always try Google first,

01:06:00 ◼   ► 'cause it's gonna be the good one,

01:06:01 ◼   ► and I said to the Google thing,

01:06:04 ◼   ► what year was the original Superman movie

01:06:06 ◼   ► starring Christopher Reeve released in?

01:06:09 ◼   ► And that is a weirdly structured sentence,

01:06:10 ◼   ► 'cause I don't get to the released in part till the end,

01:06:12 ◼   ► and I say like original movie,

01:06:14 ◼   ► and like it's, I don't just say like,

01:06:17 ◼   ► what was the year of release of,

01:06:18 ◼   ► or when was, you know, like his release is at the end,

01:06:20 ◼   ► and you gotta connect all this stuff.

01:06:22 ◼   ► It nailed it.

01:06:23 ◼   ► It just, it gave me the answer.

01:06:24 ◼   ► It said 1978.

01:06:26 ◼   ► That's like, that's what Google said, right?

01:06:27 ◼   ► And I, you know, later on, I did a second question,

01:06:30 ◼   ► which is, oh, how old is Chris Novoselic?

01:06:34 ◼   ► Do you know what the Google device said to me?

01:06:36 ◼   ► 57.

01:06:38 ◼   ► It just said 57, it didn't say,

01:06:40 ◼   ► according to the page of Wikipedia, blah, blah, blah.

01:06:42 ◼   ► It just told me the answer like a human would.

01:06:44 ◼   ► - Imagine that. - Anyway,

01:06:45 ◼   ► I also asked both of these questions

01:06:48 ◼   ► in pretty much the same way to my original HomePod.

01:06:50 ◼   ► - Oh no. (laughs)

01:06:51 ◼   ► - Fell on its face.

01:06:53 ◼   ► The first one, it's like, the webpage, blah, blah, blah,

01:06:56 ◼   ► says, and it started reading a bunch of crap about Superman.

01:06:59 ◼   ► Didn't get the date, and I was like, all right, stop.

01:07:01 ◼   ► Right, no, and it did, to its credit, it did stop.

01:07:04 ◼   ► And then I asked about Chris Novoselic,

01:07:06 ◼   ► and it started reading, oh what the, I forget,

01:07:09 ◼   ► it started reading some other webpage that was not relevant.

01:07:12 ◼   ► It was just like, oh for two, as usual,

01:07:15 ◼   ► Google's voice assistant's still a champion.

01:07:17 ◼   ► I was particularly impressed about how it just said 57.

01:07:22 ◼   ► Like, yes, I don't need you to, I don't need a preamble,

01:07:25 ◼   ► I don't need a postamble, I don't need to be addressed,

01:07:27 ◼   ► I just want the answer.

01:07:28 ◼   ► Oh, and by the way, the answer was real, real fast.

01:07:31 ◼   ► Apple, what are you doing?

01:07:33 ◼   ► Anyway, let's write some VR apps.

01:07:35 ◼   ► - Wee!

01:07:36 ◼   ► Whoever at Apple is in charge of Siri this year,

01:07:41 ◼   ► 'cause it seems to be a bit of a revolving door over there,

01:07:43 ◼   ► I would love for them to just spend one day

01:07:46 ◼   ► in my house using my HomePods, just please.

01:07:48 ◼   ► However you think Siri's working out there in California

01:07:53 ◼   ► on whatever hardware you're using,

01:07:54 ◼   ► I urge you, come here to New York

01:07:56 ◼   ► and use it on my HomePods and tell me everything's all right.

01:07:59 ◼   ► Just try doing anything on my HomePods for one day.

01:08:03 ◼   ► - By the way, that's another,

01:08:04 ◼   ► Like I watched a bunch of the new HomePod reviews

01:08:06 ◼   ► and everything.

01:08:07 ◼   ► I mean, obviously we're weird and niche or whatever,

01:08:10 ◼   ► but I was amazed at how few of them,

01:08:13 ◼   ► pretty much none of them made any mention.

01:08:16 ◼   ► I mean, maybe they mentioned in the specs like,

01:08:18 ◼   ► oh, this has X processor and the old one had Y processor,

01:08:20 ◼   ► but none of them talked about why do I care about that?

01:08:23 ◼   ► Why do I care that the new HomePod has a different processor?

01:08:26 ◼   ► Like, was there a weakness of the old pod

01:08:28 ◼   ► related to the processor that might,

01:08:29 ◼   ► that might, you know, like they didn't test response time.

01:08:32 ◼   ► They didn't say it's great that it's faster.

01:08:33 ◼   ► They didn't check whether it responds fast.

01:08:36 ◼   ► They didn't do any of that.

01:08:37 ◼   ► It's like, I know Apple doesn't talk about specs or whatever,

01:08:39 ◼   ► but I feel like one of the things we hope,

01:08:41 ◼   ► and Marco will tell us, is an improvement in the new things.

01:08:44 ◼   ► It has a new processor, and it will be faster,

01:08:46 ◼   ► and the comparison point, like Marco said on the last show,

01:08:49 ◼   ► is the Mini, which has the same processor

01:08:51 ◼   ► that seems to be, you know,

01:08:52 ◼   ► none of the reviews did any of that.

01:08:54 ◼   ► It's like it didn't even exist to them.

01:08:55 ◼   ► It was very disappointing.

01:08:56 ◼   ► - Well, I feel like the HomePod is a product,

01:08:59 ◼   ► I may be going back to this for a minute,

01:09:00 ◼   ► the HomePod is a product,

01:09:02 ◼   ► The people who get Apple review units,

01:09:04 ◼   ► and all the YouTubers and the big publications

01:09:06 ◼   ► and everything, these are tech reviewers.

01:09:09 ◼   ► This is not an area of their incredible specialty or care.

01:09:13 ◼   ► This is an accessory product.

01:09:15 ◼   ► They review the HomePod the same way they would review

01:09:18 ◼   ► an iPad Smart Cover.

01:09:20 ◼   ► Like, okay, I'm gonna try this, it'll be cool.

01:09:22 ◼   ► But how comprehensively are you gonna look at it?

01:09:25 ◼   ► - A lot of the channels did compare it to the competitors.

01:09:27 ◼   ► Here's how it compares to the Amazon things,

01:09:29 ◼   ► here's how it compares to the Google things.

01:09:30 ◼   ► And I think if you're making that comparison,

01:09:32 ◼   ► one of the things you test is,

01:09:33 ◼   ► hey, when I ask it a question,

01:09:34 ◼   ► how long does it take to give me an answer

01:09:36 ◼   ► and how well does it answer those questions?

01:09:38 ◼   ► I've seen a lot of reviews of bake-offs

01:09:40 ◼   ► like I do at my house all the time

01:09:42 ◼   ► of like ask device A, ask device B, say how they weld.

01:09:44 ◼   ► But response time, maybe it's just a sore point for us

01:09:47 ◼   ► 'cause we're impatient,

01:09:48 ◼   ► but I feel like that is one of,

01:09:50 ◼   ► a new home pod arrives

01:09:51 ◼   ► and that's one of the things I care about

01:09:52 ◼   ► because all the past home pods

01:09:54 ◼   ► haven't been real snappy with the answers.

01:09:56 ◼   ► And so if a new home pod arrives and it has a new SOC

01:09:59 ◼   ► that is more updated and hopefully as fast

01:10:03 ◼   ► as it was in the Mini, that's a thing I would test

01:10:06 ◼   ► and mention in my review, but these guys just,

01:10:08 ◼   ► anyway, whatever, I'm a bag on YouTube reviewers.

01:10:10 ◼   ► It's great that they got review units.

01:10:12 ◼   ► - Yeah, no, it really, I think also a big part of this

01:10:16 ◼   ► is that Siri has been so bad and slow and unreliable

01:10:21 ◼   ► for so long that it's kind of given now.

01:10:24 ◼   ► - They've just given up on it.

01:10:26 ◼   ► - Yeah, and nobody, when you're reviewing a product

01:10:28 ◼   ► relies so heavily on Siri as the home pods do, you don't even spend much time talking

01:10:33 ◼   ► about how crappy and slow and mediocre Siri is because everyone just knows that and we've

01:10:37 ◼   ► just given up expecting anything more.

01:10:39 ◼   ► Like that's, again, like I, oh God, I wish, I hope, I really, really hope that whoever

01:10:46 ◼   ► the current leader of Siri is this week actually thinks it's as bad as it is because like it's,

01:10:52 ◼   ► if they know it's bad, then that gives us hope that, okay, maybe they'll, maybe they're

01:10:56 ◼   ► really gonna rethink this, maybe they're gonna really put a lot behind this, 'cause like,

01:10:59 ◼   ► obviously like Google and even Amazon are way better at it in so many ways. So it's

01:11:04 ◼   ► like, obviously like it's possible to do well, it's been possible to do well for quite some

01:11:09 ◼   ► time now, and so, but if Apple knows it sucks, then great, then that's step one, is learning

01:11:16 ◼   ► you have a problem, and admitting, hey, we can do better. But I honestly wonder, like,

01:11:22 ◼   ► Does Apple think this is good?

01:11:24 ◼   ► 'Cause obviously all their PR always says how good it is,

01:11:26 ◼   ► and they have to, of course, but internally,

01:11:28 ◼   ► behind closed doors, do they know how crappy Siri is?

01:11:32 ◼   ► Do they know that it can be better?

01:11:35 ◼   ► I'm not sure they do.

01:11:36 ◼   ► I don't know if we've seen enough evidence

01:11:38 ◼   ► that they actually believe that

01:11:40 ◼   ► or have any idea how to make it better.

01:11:43 ◼   ► - I should send them some of my free Google Home minis.

01:11:47 ◼   ► Do they just have them sitting next to their HomePods?

01:11:50 ◼   ► The next time you wanna know when the movie

01:11:51 ◼   ► released or how old a celebrity is ask both see how it goes for you well I

01:11:55 ◼   ► think Marco you said three different things you know does Apple know that

01:11:59 ◼   ► Siri is trash I think they do it wouldn't entirely surprise me if they

01:12:04 ◼   ► don't but I think they do what were the other two I do can they fix it that

01:12:10 ◼   ► unless convinced about because they've had a long time to fix it and I don't

01:12:15 ◼   ► know if they're capable of it and shoot I forgot what the third thing was that's

01:12:18 ◼   ► all right. But whenever I've talked to engineers at Apple, now granted I've not

01:12:22 ◼   ► talked to any Siri engineers, possibly because they don't exist, I don't know,

01:12:26 ◼   ► but one way or the other, I've never talked to Siri engineers, but you know,

01:12:31 ◼   ► general rank-and-file Apple, you know, software engineers, they claim, and I

01:12:36 ◼   ► believe them, that they are their own biggest critics. That they make John look

01:12:40 ◼   ► like a pushover, you know, in that they know in and out how garbage so much of

01:12:45 ◼   ► stuff is. Now, they also make excuses for it, much like they make excuses for radar

01:12:50 ◼   ► and feedback assistant because they know how the sausage is made. They know why, you know,

01:12:54 ◼   ► a stage manager sucks. And they, they might even know why, why Siri sucks because, oh, well,

01:13:00 ◼   ► we don't have the, this, that, and the other thing, or, oh, you know, corporate politics or,

01:13:04 ◼   ► oh, this or that. But they know that it sucks. Like that's not up for grabs. They know, they know.

01:13:10 ◼   ► But again, the question is, can they, can they do anything about it and, or do they care enough

01:13:15 ◼   ► enough to do anything about it.

01:13:16 ◼   ► I don't know the answer to those questions.

01:13:18 ◼   ► You were saying that rank and file employees know, but as you go up the org chart, it becomes

01:13:22 ◼   ► more and more important for you not to know that.

01:13:25 ◼   ► Because when you have to say, "I'm in charge of Siri.

01:13:28 ◼   ► It's time for my annual review.

01:13:29 ◼   ► How'd you do?"

01:13:30 ◼   ► "We're too great.

01:13:31 ◼   ► We made huge improvements to Siri, and Siri's doing great."

01:13:34 ◼   ► It is good for your career to actually believe that Siri is doing great, because then you

01:13:38 ◼   ► can convincingly say that Siri is doing great so you can get your raise and your new stock

01:13:42 ◼   ► options.

01:13:43 ◼   ► is it the rank and file when you're just down there,

01:13:45 ◼   ► you could have a more clear-eyed view of, you know,

01:13:47 ◼   ► Siri's bad because it doesn't have the resources

01:13:50 ◼   ► or it was moved from X department to Y

01:13:51 ◼   ► or everybody quit or whatever.

01:13:54 ◼   ► - Yep, that's completely fair.

01:13:56 ◼   ► - Anyway, VR headset.

01:13:57 ◼   ► Should read this passage from the information

01:14:01 ◼   ► about making apps so that, so here's what they say.

01:14:04 ◼   ► With the software tools, Apple hopes that even people

01:14:07 ◼   ► who don't know computer code could tell the headset

01:14:09 ◼   ► via the Siri voice assistant to build an AR app

01:14:12 ◼   ► that could then be made available via Apple's App Store

01:14:14 ◼   ► for others to download.

01:14:15 ◼   ► So that is quite a claim.

01:14:16 ◼   ► It's saying not only will you be able to do something

01:14:19 ◼   ► with Siri that makes something that could be considered

01:14:21 ◼   ► an app, but then you could then put them

01:14:22 ◼   ► on the App Store as well.

01:14:24 ◼   ► The tool, for example, could allow users to build up an app

01:14:27 ◼   ► with virtual animals moving around a room

01:14:29 ◼   ► and over or around real life objects

01:14:31 ◼   ► without the need to design the animal from scratch,

01:14:33 ◼   ► programs animations and calculate its movements

01:14:35 ◼   ► in 3D space and so on and so forth.

01:14:36 ◼   ► And 9to5Mac notes, this is similar to features

01:14:39 ◼   ► already offered by headsets for Meta,

01:14:41 ◼   ► The Quest headsets, for example, have an app called Horizon Worlds that allows users to

01:14:44 ◼   ► build 3D environments without coding.

01:14:46 ◼   ► Additionally, features similar to this have already appeared on the iPhone as part of

01:14:49 ◼   ► Apple's other augmented reality and virtual reality work.

01:14:51 ◼   ► So this is much less interesting than the story makes it seem.

01:14:55 ◼   ► It's like, okay, you can make a thing in AR/VR out of a bunch of pieces that are premade

01:15:00 ◼   ► and you assemble them, and that could, in theory, be packaged up in a few standardized

01:15:05 ◼   ► ways into an app that you could then put in an app store.

01:15:08 ◼   ► of reminds me of the ebook plague of the early days of the App Store where it's real easy

01:15:11 ◼   ► to package up an ebook in an iOS app and put it on the App Store and make some quick money

01:15:17 ◼   ► before Apple realizes this is a terrible idea and bans the practice.

01:15:20 ◼   ► Only now it's Apple doing it by saying, "Hey, make a thing with a bunch of animals that

01:15:24 ◼   ► walk around your living room and upload it to the App Store."

01:15:27 ◼   ► All right, sure, whatever.

01:15:30 ◼   ► This is leading us to the title of the section that Casey tried to sing and I think…

01:15:35 ◼   ► failed miserably

01:15:37 ◼   ► Why what what is this AR VR headset good for?

01:15:41 ◼   ► Again, what we're not we're not talking about a pair of glasses that you wear that can project things into them because there's a million awesome

01:15:48 ◼   ► Uses for that we're talking about a headset a thing that is pretty big pretty bulky

01:15:54 ◼   ► Has a lot of computing power

01:15:57 ◼   ► Has peripherals has like a battery which may or may not be clipped to your belt which was a style at the time

01:16:05 ◼   ► It's like, why would I want to buy, it may be expensive, why would I want to buy this?

01:16:10 ◼   ► What is it good for?

01:16:11 ◼   ► Here's from Bloomberg.

01:16:13 ◼   ► People familiar with Apple's content strategy for the headset say, "Apple executives are

01:16:16 ◼   ► emphasizing health and wellness, including proposals for AR apps that assist with meditation

01:16:20 ◼   ► and exercise.

01:16:22 ◼   ► One early AR demo allowed users to sit inside a Zen garden."

01:16:25 ◼   ► All right, sure.

01:16:26 ◼   ► "Another Apple demo for executives allows users to walk through the Dr. Seuss book,

01:16:30 ◼   ► 'Oh, the Places You'll Go,' by blending its fantastical environment with the real world."

01:16:33 ◼   ► All right.

01:16:34 ◼   ► - All right, these all sound like cool tech demos.

01:16:37 ◼   ► Still waiting to figure out what's gonna make me

01:16:42 ◼   ► wanna buy this big headset

01:16:44 ◼   ► and what's gonna make me want to strap it to my head

01:16:48 ◼   ► to pick up potentially the two things

01:16:50 ◼   ► that I might have to hold in my hand to make it work.

01:16:54 ◼   ► Gruber took a shot at it and went through,

01:16:55 ◼   ► 'cause he's had the same question for a long time

01:16:57 ◼   ► and he wrote a big article about it

01:16:58 ◼   ► called the billions dollar question.

01:17:00 ◼   ► What is it good for?

01:17:03 ◼   ► He came up, so here's his summary.

01:17:06 ◼   ► What are the intended use cases for Apple's headset?

01:17:09 ◼   ► After you buy it, unbox it and power it on,

01:17:12 ◼   ► what are you supposed to do with it?

01:17:13 ◼   ► What features and experiences will seem worth spending

01:17:16 ◼   ► a thousand or even thousands of dollars?

01:17:18 ◼   ► I ponder this every day and I come up short.

01:17:20 ◼   ► And so in his article, he lists everything he could think of

01:17:24 ◼   ► and I'm just gonna give the bullet points here

01:17:25 ◼   ► and you can read his article

01:17:26 ◼   ► to see what he has to say about them.

01:17:28 ◼   ► The things he came up with is,

01:17:29 ◼   ► well, you might use it for is games, movies and TV,

01:17:33 ◼   ► virtual meetings with FaceTime-like calls,

01:17:36 ◼   ► personal computing via projected displays.

01:17:39 ◼   ► And then he says, I can't think of any other use cases

01:17:42 ◼   ► for VR XR headset.

01:17:44 ◼   ► I cannot believe that such a headset would be intended

01:17:46 ◼   ► for wearing around as you go about daily life,

01:17:47 ◼   ► augmenting the real world with virtual displays

01:17:49 ◼   ► and ambient contextual informations.

01:17:51 ◼   ► That's what we need AR glasses for, not AR goggles.

01:17:54 ◼   ► And you can read his summaries of descriptions

01:17:57 ◼   ► of why he thinks games, movies, TV, virtual meetings,

01:18:01 ◼   ► and personal computing with projected displays

01:18:03 ◼   ► probably aren't going to make him want to use this thing.

01:18:06 ◼   ► And there's probably more items that you can hit,

01:18:08 ◼   ► and I can look at each one of those items and say,

01:18:10 ◼   ► well, if Apple did a good job of games,

01:18:13 ◼   ► that would be a reason.

01:18:14 ◼   ► If Apple did a really good job of virtual meetings,

01:18:17 ◼   ► that might be a reason.

01:18:18 ◼   ► But again, read the Gruber article

01:18:20 ◼   ► to see all the countervailing forces.

01:18:21 ◼   ► I don't think I have to describe the countervailing forces

01:18:23 ◼   ► when it comes to Apple and games.

01:18:25 ◼   ► We know about those.

01:18:26 ◼   ► Virtual meetings, the countervailing forces

01:18:28 ◼   ► are like Microsoft and Google, also pretty big forces.

01:18:32 ◼   ► Anyway, I thought it was a good article

01:18:33 ◼   ► and I thought it was a good time to revisit the idea of like,

01:18:36 ◼   ► what are we supposed to use this thing for?

01:18:39 ◼   ► And finally, the reason we're talking about this now

01:18:42 ◼   ► for the umpteenth time is that the rumors are heating up

01:18:44 ◼   ► about Apple's AR VR goggle thing.

01:18:48 ◼   ► Gurman, his latest thing, he said that,

01:18:51 ◼   ► is reportedly set to be announced sometime this spring

01:18:53 ◼   ► with launch consumers happening later this fall.

01:18:55 ◼   ► So around WWDC-ish time,

01:18:58 ◼   ► rumors say Apple may actually be ready to release this thing.

01:19:01 ◼   ► This thing that, the earlier rumor was that it might

01:19:03 ◼   ► actually be released before the end of last year,

01:19:05 ◼   ► obviously that didn't happen.

01:19:06 ◼   ► But if they're ready to release something,

01:19:09 ◼   ► the mystery of, as Gruber says,

01:19:11 ◼   ► when I take it out of the box,

01:19:13 ◼   ► what am I supposed to use it for?

01:19:14 ◼   ► That mystery kind of remains.

01:19:16 ◼   ► - Yeah, I keep thinking back to previous Apple

01:19:20 ◼   ► new platform launch warmups,

01:19:23 ◼   ► like when we were about to get the iPad or the Apple Watch.

01:19:30 ◼   ► we kind of knew ahead of time, like,

01:19:32 ◼   ► oh, hey, they're working on something.

01:19:32 ◼   ► Even the phone, like, we kind of knew

01:19:34 ◼   ► they were working on a phone.

01:19:35 ◼   ► That was, I think, a special case,

01:19:36 ◼   ► 'cause that really blew us away.

01:19:37 ◼   ► - Or even the Apple TV.

01:19:39 ◼   ► People don't remember that was going to launch as ITV.

01:19:42 ◼   ► People think, oh, there was never any question

01:19:43 ◼   ► about what you're gonna use the Apple TV for.

01:19:45 ◼   ► If you remember what the original ITV thing

01:19:47 ◼   ► was intended to do versus what the little puck does,

01:19:49 ◼   ► it's similar, but kind of like

01:19:51 ◼   ► all the other products you've named,

01:19:53 ◼   ► the what you're supposed to use this product for

01:19:56 ◼   ► actually has evolved over time,

01:19:58 ◼   ► as the market has decided, no,

01:20:00 ◼   ► this is what we wanna do with it.

01:20:01 ◼   ► So for example, DVRing things from broadcast television

01:20:05 ◼   ► is not a feature that Apple went with

01:20:08 ◼   ► for their TV connected boxes, but it could've been

01:20:10 ◼   ► because the technical capabilities were there,

01:20:12 ◼   ► it just turned out that's not what the market wanted.

01:20:14 ◼   ► - Yeah, and like, when you look at these

01:20:17 ◼   ► previous product launches, you know,

01:20:19 ◼   ► I'll do, look at the iPad for instance.

01:20:21 ◼   ► When Apple was rumored to, the iPhone was already going

01:20:24 ◼   ► for a couple of years by that point,

01:20:25 ◼   ► they were rumored to be doing a tablet.

01:20:28 ◼   ► And the rumors ended up being not too far off.

01:20:30 ◼   ► Everyone kind of knew, like, okay,

01:20:32 ◼   ► it's gonna be like a big iPhone.

01:20:33 ◼   ► They got the price wrong famously,

01:20:35 ◼   ► but for the most part, we were wondering,

01:20:38 ◼   ► and at the time, there were other tablets that predated it,

01:20:42 ◼   ► and they weren't very compelling.

01:20:44 ◼   ► They had a market, and there were a couple

01:20:47 ◼   ► different types of tablets.

01:20:48 ◼   ► There were the PC World's kind of tablets,

01:20:50 ◼   ► which were actually usually convertible laptops

01:20:52 ◼   ► where you'd flip the screen around,

01:20:54 ◼   ► and those did okay in certain industries.

01:20:57 ◼   ► And then they had, remember right before the iPad,

01:20:59 ◼   ► they had the Crunch Pad.

01:21:01 ◼   ► - The Crunch Pad.

01:21:03 ◼   ► No one should remember the Crunch Pad, please.

01:21:05 ◼   ► - There were some other dumb startup

01:21:07 ◼   ► that was like $1,000 for their tablet too,

01:21:10 ◼   ► and it was way worse.

01:21:11 ◼   ► - Yeah, one of the things about the iPad launch

01:21:13 ◼   ► that's interesting to remember

01:21:14 ◼   ► is kind of like the headset launch.

01:21:16 ◼   ► Before Apple has launched a product entry into a space

01:21:20 ◼   ► is the time of, kind of like Gruber was covering,

01:21:23 ◼   ► the time of infinite possibilities, right?

01:21:26 ◼   ► There are lots of things this could be.

01:21:27 ◼   ► And people's minds go wild.

01:21:29 ◼   ► Well, this could be X, this could be Y.

01:21:31 ◼   ► But there's no actual product yet.

01:21:32 ◼   ► We haven't seen what Apple has released,

01:21:34 ◼   ► so we don't know what they're gonna do.

01:21:35 ◼   ► But we have all these ideas that could be possible.

01:21:37 ◼   ► One of the most fantastical ones around the iPad

01:21:39 ◼   ► was, if you remember this one,

01:21:41 ◼   ► the iPad's gonna save newspapers.

01:21:42 ◼   ► Do you remember that one?

01:21:43 ◼   ► (laughing)

01:21:45 ◼   ► Right? - Oh my word.

01:21:45 ◼   ► Whoops. - It's gonna save magazines

01:21:46 ◼   ► and newspapers 'cause there's a business that existed

01:21:49 ◼   ► for lots of the lives of people

01:21:51 ◼   ► who were writing articles at the time.

01:21:52 ◼   ► Old people remember magazines and newspapers.

01:21:55 ◼   ► and they're dying and Apple's gonna come up with a tablet.

01:21:58 ◼   ► So one thing this tablet could do

01:22:00 ◼   ► is it could save magazines and newspapers

01:22:02 ◼   ► by making a modern digital equivalent

01:22:04 ◼   ► and all those newspaper reporters and magazine writers

01:22:06 ◼   ► will keep their jobs and their pensions

01:22:09 ◼   ► and still continue to be paid $20 a word

01:22:12 ◼   ► and whatever the, you know, like that didn't happen really

01:22:15 ◼   ► in the way that people expected.

01:22:17 ◼   ► But before there is a product,

01:22:19 ◼   ► there's lots of fantastical ideas about what it could be.

01:22:22 ◼   ► And then the other analogy,

01:22:23 ◼   ► which I'm sure you're gonna get to eventually, Marco,

01:22:25 ◼   ► was the Apple Watch where Apple itself had lots of very

01:22:29 ◼   ► fantastical ideas of what the product could be,

01:22:31 ◼   ► even when it was launching it.

01:22:33 ◼   ► But we eventually narrowed it down.

01:22:35 ◼   ► - Yeah.

01:22:36 ◼   ► But going back to the iPad for a second.

01:22:38 ◼   ► So in the lead up to the iPad launch,

01:22:41 ◼   ► we were able to look at other tablets on the market

01:22:45 ◼   ► that were in kind of moderate success,

01:22:48 ◼   ► maybe in certain areas, but hadn't really taken over

01:22:51 ◼   ► the world by storm or anything like that.

01:22:52 ◼   ► But we were able to look at other tablets in the market

01:22:54 ◼   ► and see, well, tablets have the following shortcomings.

01:22:58 ◼   ► They're a little bit unwieldy to have in a pocket

01:23:02 ◼   ► or even most bags or anything, but they're still useful.

01:23:06 ◼   ► They're hard to have text input on.

01:23:10 ◼   ► We haven't really solved the tablet text input problem.

01:23:13 ◼   ► And for all these problems that we would think of,

01:23:15 ◼   ► we would say, well, I bet Apple has a plan,

01:23:18 ◼   ► 'cause Apple has such a good track record now at this point.