ATP

00:00:00 ◼   ► I've come to accept that there are certain things in life that I am not very good at,

00:00:06 ◼   ► and washing windows is now being added to that list.

00:00:10 ◼   ► Windows on your car?

00:00:11 ◼   ► No.

00:00:12 ◼   ► Oh, I can't wash any part of a car.

00:00:13 ◼   ► That got added to the list long ago.

00:00:14 ◼   ► Yeah, I can confirm.

00:00:15 ◼   ► Because that is a challenge that I've been tackling for many years and I still have not

00:00:20 ◼   ► mastered.

00:00:21 ◼   ► I can confirm that Marco, for all of his many perks, is completely useless at washing a

00:00:26 ◼   ► car.

00:00:27 ◼   ► I've seen it with my own eyes.

00:00:28 ◼   ► All of his good qualities.

00:00:29 ◼   ► All of the great things about Marco, which there are many, I can tell you that being

00:00:34 ◼   ► able to wash a car is not on that list.

00:00:36 ◼   ► No, not even a little bit.

00:00:39 ◼   ► So what windows are you washing then?

00:00:41 ◼   ► So we have our main sliders to the deck.

00:00:46 ◼   ► Normally in the summertime we can hire a window washer to come out whenever it gets really

00:00:51 ◼   ► terrible and you can barely see through it anymore.

00:00:53 ◼   ► We can hire a window washer and they do a good job.

00:00:55 ◼   ► They don't work in the winter.

00:00:57 ◼   ► So at least here, because normally it's freezing.

00:01:02 ◼   ► So I have a few basic things.

00:01:05 ◼   ► I have one of those big squeegee things with the brush on the other side of it.

00:01:09 ◼   ► Whatever those window washing brushes.

00:01:11 ◼   ► Do you have one of those planks held up by poison ropes and you lower yourself down from

00:01:15 ◼   ► the roof?

00:01:16 ◼   ► No, the good thing is this is all just at floor level so I can just walk up to it and

00:01:21 ◼   ► do it.

00:01:22 ◼   ► And to be clear, what are you washing off the windows?

00:01:25 ◼   ► I've never lived at the beach.

00:01:26 ◼   ► Do you actually get salt on them?

00:01:28 ◼   ► It's rain and dirt and salty, grimy dirt from rain and the ocean.

00:01:34 ◼   ► But is it mostly, I'm wondering, is it a different kind of grime than you get at non-beach houses?

00:01:40 ◼   ► Yeah, it's very like, it's like sticky.

00:01:43 ◼   ► It's not like dry dirt.

00:01:44 ◼   ► It's like constantly damp, slightly sticky, salty, sandy dirt.

00:01:49 ◼   ► Sounds delicious.

00:01:50 ◼   ► And the rest of the house I don't care about, but these windows are, they face south so

00:01:55 ◼   ► they face where the sun comes in all day.

00:01:57 ◼   ► So you really see when they're dirty and like, all right, I can either, you know, have them

00:02:01 ◼   ► be dirty for the next four months until the window washer can be here.

00:02:06 ◼   ► Or you know, do it myself.

00:02:08 ◼   ► And yeah, what is this, your car?

00:02:10 ◼   ► Right.

00:02:11 ◼   ► I cannot find a carwash.

00:02:13 ◼   ► Like I, that's a whole other thing.

00:02:15 ◼   ► You make Casey cry every time you take your car through a carwash.

00:02:18 ◼   ► You have no, well, no, I would be happy if you even took it to a carwash.

00:02:22 ◼   ► Oh my gosh.

00:02:23 ◼   ► I'm that desperate at this point.

00:02:25 ◼   ► I just want, I just want Marco to look at me.

00:02:29 ◼   ► I would get, I would take it to a carwash every time I left the island if there was

00:02:32 ◼   ► one anywhere nearby where I go.

00:02:35 ◼   ► And as far as I can tell, there isn't one.

00:02:37 ◼   ► I'm surprised that, Jon, you don't have some hole in the wall from when you were a kid

00:02:40 ◼   ► that you're suggesting Marco go to.

00:02:42 ◼   ► Well, cause it's just, that's nowhere near where I usually go.

00:02:44 ◼   ► I did not have a favorite carwash.

00:02:46 ◼   ► Sorry.

00:02:47 ◼   ► And I would be fine to just go to one of those, like, you know, just self-serve ones where

00:02:50 ◼   ► it's just like the hose and the thing that takes quarters and you just dial in whatever

00:02:53 ◼   ► like that.

00:02:54 ◼   ► I would, that'd be fine.

00:02:55 ◼   ► I don't need the perfect job.

00:02:56 ◼   ► I just need to like blast all the sand and crap off my car, but nope.

00:03:00 ◼   ► So these are all areas that are not my expertise, but anyway.

00:03:05 ◼   ► Yeah.

00:03:06 ◼   ► So I've, I've, I've watched so many YouTube videos on the technique you're supposed to

00:03:09 ◼   ► use with the squeegee on a window to try to have no lines left after you have squeegeed.

00:03:16 ◼   ► I cannot for the life of me perform this action.

00:03:18 ◼   ► Well, if I can use my knowledge of a car window washing, if you're having trouble with not

00:03:25 ◼   ► all the same thing, well, it is in this sense and that like, you know, obviously I didn't

00:03:30 ◼   ► watch any kind of window streaks or a problem.

00:03:32 ◼   ► I don't think it's your squeegee technique.

00:03:34 ◼   ► I think you haven't gotten all the crap off your window yet.

00:03:37 ◼   ► So there's nothing you can do with the squeegee.

00:03:39 ◼   ► That's not going to leave streaks.

00:03:40 ◼   ► You need to get the crap off your window.

00:03:42 ◼   ► And then the question is, can I get the remaining water off the window in such a way that I

00:03:47 ◼   ► don't get like a little line between, you know, so I think basically you're not removing

00:03:51 ◼   ► the bad stuff from the window sufficiently before you move.

00:03:54 ◼   ► You want to jump right to the step where you're like, Oh, I'm going to use a little squeegee

00:03:57 ◼   ► and it'll be clean.

00:03:58 ◼   ► No, you got to actually get all the crap off first.

00:03:59 ◼   ► Oh, maybe I'll try that.

00:04:01 ◼   ► Like continue to wash, like wash that whatever it is in the salt, dirt, sand, whatever it

00:04:06 ◼   ► is, get it off your window.

00:04:08 ◼   ► And that may take many several passes.

00:04:10 ◼   ► And then finally when you have a clean window with just maybe a little bit of mildly dirty

00:04:13 ◼   ► water on it, then your squeegeeing will work better.

00:04:15 ◼   ► Hmm.

00:04:16 ◼   ► That's my problem.

00:04:17 ◼   ► Yeah.

00:04:18 ◼   ► Cause like, cause like, you know, like when the window washers come, I mean they, they

00:04:20 ◼   ► do it in like three seconds and it's perfect, but they're experts.

00:04:24 ◼   ► Like they, they really know what they're doing.

00:04:25 ◼   ► They're very good at their jobs and they, and you know, they have, they do the whole

00:04:29 ◼   ► house in like two hours.

00:04:30 ◼   ► I don't know how they do it.

00:04:32 ◼   ► It took me like, it took me a good two hours to do three sliders today.

00:04:35 ◼   ► You're calling them sliders like little hamburgers.

00:04:40 ◼   ► That's yeah, they're sliders.

00:04:41 ◼   ► They're sliding door window units.

00:04:43 ◼   ► You're talking about sliding glass doors.

00:04:44 ◼   ► Yes.

00:04:45 ◼   ► Sliding.

00:04:46 ◼   ► Everyone calls them sliding.

00:04:47 ◼   ► This might be an Ohio thing.

00:04:49 ◼   ► I'm going to look this up.

00:04:50 ◼   ► What would you call them?

00:04:51 ◼   ► I would not call them sliders.

00:04:53 ◼   ► What would you call them?

00:04:54 ◼   ► Sliding glass doors.

00:04:55 ◼   ► It's a bit long.

00:04:56 ◼   ► Ow.

00:04:57 ◼   ► I mean, why use three syllables when 17 would do?

00:05:01 ◼   ► I'm just, I'm just telling you what they are.

00:05:03 ◼   ► Sliders are tiny hamburgers.

00:05:04 ◼   ► In the context of talking about windows.

00:05:06 ◼   ► Well, anyway, those are probably easier to clean.

00:05:10 ◼   ► The hamburgers?

00:05:11 ◼   ► Yeah.

00:05:12 ◼   ► Clean them right off your plate.

00:05:13 ◼   ► Plate.

00:05:14 ◼   ► Yum, yum, yum.

00:05:15 ◼   ► You clean your insides, that's for sure.

00:05:17 ◼   ► Well, you clean your own insides out after eating too many of those.

00:05:20 ◼   ► Oh, gosh.

00:05:21 ◼   ► Listen to this guy.

00:05:22 ◼   ► That's just White Castle.

00:05:23 ◼   ► I haven't had White Castle in probably five years.

00:05:25 ◼   ► There's no one, none of them anywhere near me.

00:05:27 ◼   ► Yeah, so I did a Google search for it and I came up with slider services, professional

00:05:31 ◼   ► sliding door maintenance, right?

00:05:33 ◼   ► But this is the Midwest's most experienced specialty contractor.

00:05:35 ◼   ► So I'm wondering if sliders is a Midwestern thing.

00:05:38 ◼   ► I'll have to ask my wife about it when the show's over.

00:05:41 ◼   ► I don't know.

00:05:42 ◼   ► I never had one sliding glass door growing up and I was too young in that house to really

00:05:46 ◼   ► talk about it by that name.

00:05:48 ◼   ► So I don't know what we said there.

00:05:50 ◼   ► Oh my goodness.

00:05:52 ◼   ► So out of curiosity, I thought to myself, you know, I should look and see if there is

00:05:55 ◼   ► a White Castle anywhere near me and there isn't.

00:05:59 ◼   ► But as I'm looking at the White Castle locator, it says, you know, it's no castles found.

00:06:05 ◼   ► And then there's a checkbox that reads, "Only show castles accepting Valentine's Day reservations."

00:06:11 ◼   ► So when I think, even I, I mean, I have the world's worst taste in everything, allegedly,

00:06:18 ◼   ► but maybe, maybe it's somebody's favorite restaurant.

00:06:21 ◼   ► Oh, I'm not judging.

00:06:22 ◼   ► It's just, that's so, wow.

00:06:24 ◼   ► I'm more surprised that they take reservations.

00:06:26 ◼   ► Like even for the people for whom that is their favorite restaurant, like I would never

00:06:31 ◼   ► think to even check to see if they take reservations.

00:06:35 ◼   ► I don't know.

00:06:36 ◼   ► Do you need reservations at White Castle?

00:06:38 ◼   ► You want to get the good seat by the dirty window?

00:06:40 ◼   ► I don't know.

00:06:41 ◼   ► Right.

00:06:42 ◼   ► Well, they probably have professional window washers.

00:06:43 ◼   ► That's right.

00:06:44 ◼   ► Yeah.

00:06:45 ◼   ► They don't have Marco clean in their crap.

00:06:46 ◼   ► John, you want to tell me about what you've put in the show notes as the chicken hat dregs,

00:06:53 ◼   ► please?

00:06:54 ◼   ► Yeah, I think I kept, I should have looked this up.

00:06:56 ◼   ► I kept trying to think of the phrase that they say on the Apple earnings calls when

00:07:00 ◼   ► they're trying to say that there is sufficient supply to meet the demand, like supply and

00:07:05 ◼   ► demand are in balance or something.

00:07:07 ◼   ► There's some, there's some like little phrase that they use all the time that I can't remember.

00:07:11 ◼   ► But anyway, I think that finally the chicken hat supply and demand are in balance.

00:07:16 ◼   ► We got the final, final, final, final shipment of chicken hats like before the last episode,

00:07:23 ◼   ► but I didn't mention it on the show cause I just wanted them to sort of drain out of

00:07:26 ◼   ► the system naturally and they more or less have, we have a handful of them left.

00:07:31 ◼   ► I think everybody who has any interest in a chicken hat now has one.

00:07:35 ◼   ► So congratulations to everybody.

00:07:37 ◼   ► But if you are super duper desperate, we do have a handful of them left.

00:07:41 ◼   ► They're probably just going to honestly sit there for like the next year, kind of like

00:07:44 ◼   ► the ATP pins where everybody who wanted an ATP pin got one.

00:07:47 ◼   ► And then we had like 50 pins in the, in our stock inventory for like a year and a half.

00:07:52 ◼   ► So that may happen with the chicken hats, which if it does fine, but if not just letting

00:07:56 ◼   ► everybody know, if you want a chicken hat, go to ATP.fm/store.

00:08:00 ◼   ► There is a handful left.

00:08:01 ◼   ► And frankly, I don't know how this happened that with all the ordering we were doing that

00:08:05 ◼   ► somehow we weren't left with a thousand chicken hats.

00:08:08 ◼   ► Like like all of a sudden, oh, the demand stops and then we have a thousand left.

00:08:11 ◼   ► So a little bit behind the scenes stuff.

00:08:13 ◼   ► One of the orders that we, one of the many multiple orders that we made, like a box of

00:08:18 ◼   ► hats got lost and it can, I think it was a box of like 150 or 300, no it was 150 hats

00:08:24 ◼   ► or something like, oh, we, we were supposed to have a box of these and it went missing.

00:08:28 ◼   ► And so the manufacturer just, you know, manufactured another box of 150 hats for free and then

00:08:33 ◼   ► sent it.

00:08:34 ◼   ► And then they found the missing box.

00:08:38 ◼   ► And so we had actually an extra 150 hats on top of the amount that we wanted to have.

00:08:44 ◼   ► And that all, all of that sort of fumbling around and multiple shipments put us in a

00:08:48 ◼   ► position where we have, you know, a small number of hats left for anybody who wants

00:08:53 ◼   ► them.

00:08:54 ◼   ► And that's what we're going to have to do.

00:08:58 ◼   ► We'll see if this section even makes it in the release show because the bootleg people

00:09:01 ◼   ► might get to it and decide.

00:09:02 ◼   ► Everyone has the bootleg has already got a hat if they want it.

00:09:05 ◼   ► All right, we'll see.

00:09:07 ◼   ► Speaking of bootlegs and members, now would be a pretty good time if you haven't already

00:09:12 ◼   ► gone to ATP.fm/join to do so.

00:09:16 ◼   ► We are writing a wrong that we as a collective unit made, or at least that's the story I'm

00:09:21 ◼   ► sticking with.

00:09:22 ◼   ► Was it just you?

00:09:23 ◼   ► Yeah.

00:09:24 ◼   ► I really was trying to plan this off on all three of us.

00:09:26 ◼   ► I thought we could take this fall together, but seems not.

00:09:28 ◼   ► I will dive on my sword.

00:09:29 ◼   ► I will commit seppuku.

00:09:31 ◼   ► No, John was particularly embittered at my selection for the trilogy that we had done

00:09:36 ◼   ► of a movie, you know, reviews or whatever you want to call them.

00:09:40 ◼   ► Come on.

00:09:41 ◼   ► Thank you.

00:09:42 ◼   ► ATP movie club is what I meant to say.

00:09:45 ◼   ► John was very upset at me for my selection for ATP movie club, even though the rundown

00:09:49 ◼   ► for multiple reasons, the rundown is an unquestionably good movie.

00:09:52 ◼   ► We all agreed.

00:09:53 ◼   ► Just listen to the episode.

00:09:54 ◼   ► I thought it made for a very good episode of our show.

00:09:57 ◼   ► Thank you.

00:09:58 ◼   ► But anyway.

00:09:59 ◼   ► But none of us were culturally enriched by it.

00:10:02 ◼   ► Oh, gosh.

00:10:03 ◼   ► You know, can you just let me get through this one piece, please?

00:10:05 ◼   ► And thank you.

00:10:06 ◼   ► No.

00:10:07 ◼   ► Apparently not.

00:10:08 ◼   ► I'm new here.

00:10:09 ◼   ► Have you heard the show?

00:10:11 ◼   ► We're going to right my wrongs.

00:10:14 ◼   ► And we're going to, tomorrow night, we're recording this episode obviously right now

00:10:19 ◼   ► tonight, but tomorrow night as I sit here, which is Thursday night in the One Shoe Time

00:10:23 ◼   ► Zone, we are going to record an episode of ATP movie club about the hunt for October,

00:10:29 ◼   ► the hunt for red October, which I will spoil only to say it is one of my favorite films

00:10:34 ◼   ► of all time.

00:10:36 ◼   ► And John, I think, I think we'll have not altogether negative things to say about it.

00:10:42 ◼   ► And Marco, let's verify you have not or had not seen it or have not seen it at the time

00:10:47 ◼   ► we are recording right now.

00:10:48 ◼   ► I'm going to watch it tomorrow.

00:10:49 ◼   ► So it's fresh in my mind when we record.

00:10:51 ◼   ► Excellent.

00:10:52 ◼   ► I actually plan to do the same, even though I think I could probably recite the entire

00:10:55 ◼   ► movie by heart, but nevertheless, we don't know when this episode will be released.

00:11:00 ◼   ► I would say sometime no later than the end of next week.

00:11:03 ◼   ► It's up to whenever Marco has time to edit it, but in the next week or so, we are going

00:11:08 ◼   ► to do ATP movie club, the hunt for October.

00:11:12 ◼   ► And again, if you go to ATP.fm/join, then you can get not only this forthcoming episode,

00:11:19 ◼   ► but also the three episodes prior and also the bootleg and discounts on our limited time

00:11:26 ◼   ► store offerings.

00:11:27 ◼   ► So that's not available right now, but it will be probably shortly before WWDC.

00:11:31 ◼   ► So check it out.

00:11:32 ◼   ► I'm really, really looking forward to recording this.

00:11:34 ◼   ► I am extremely excited to talk to these two fine gentlemen slash my mortal enemies about

00:11:39 ◼   ► one of my favorite movies.

00:11:40 ◼   ► So wish me luck.

00:11:43 ◼   ► And again, that'll be out sometime in the next week, week and a half or thereabouts.

00:11:46 ◼   ► And we do have some other ideas for members special content, but we couldn't nail them

00:11:50 ◼   ► down in time.

00:11:51 ◼   ► And I just wanted to get some member special content out because we felt like it was, it

00:11:55 ◼   ► was due.

00:11:56 ◼   ► So we're doing the easy one, which is fixing Casey's earlier mistake.

00:11:59 ◼   ► Thanks, dad.

00:12:00 ◼   ► Yes.

00:12:01 ◼   ► So, and honestly, you know, this is a little inside baseball, but we, we have many, many,

00:12:06 ◼   ► many ideas.

00:12:07 ◼   ► We don't have any particular timeline about when we're going to execute on any of these

00:12:12 ◼   ► ideas.

00:12:13 ◼   ► We don't know, you know, which one we're going to do next.

00:12:15 ◼   ► It may be several months before we do more member exclusive stuff.

00:12:18 ◼   ► And we're, we're going to continue to try to do things that we don't feel like would

00:12:22 ◼   ► fit in the main show.

00:12:24 ◼   ► You know, we don't want to, we don't want to take away from things that we think we

00:12:30 ◼   ► would feature in the main show.

00:12:31 ◼   ► And we're just trying to like, you know, scroll them off to the side and make you pay to get

00:12:35 ◼   ► them.

00:12:36 ◼   ► You know, where this is stuff that, Hey, if you don't listen, that's fine.

00:12:38 ◼   ► We'd prefer you did, but if you don't, it's not gonna hurt our feelings.

00:12:41 ◼   ► Some day cooking with John.

00:12:44 ◼   ► I don't know how we're going to do it, but someday we're going to figure out a way to

00:12:47 ◼   ► do it.

00:12:48 ◼   ► Cooking works so great in podcast form.

00:12:52 ◼   ► We could, I'm telling you, we can't do any cooking podcasts.

00:12:54 ◼   ► I should look that up.

00:12:55 ◼   ► I'm sure there are just the sound of pots clanging around.

00:12:58 ◼   ► It's just a bunch of Foley artists.

00:12:59 ◼   ► Yep.

00:13:00 ◼   ► Yep.

00:13:01 ◼   ► It would be amazing.

00:13:02 ◼   ► I'm telling you, it would, it would be phenomenal.

00:13:03 ◼   ► What we should do is we should have like John watch as I described to Marco how to cook

00:13:09 ◼   ► or vice versa.

00:13:10 ◼   ► Actually, probably better vice versa.

00:13:11 ◼   ► So John is watching.

00:13:12 ◼   ► Casey, you have to be the one trying to follow John's directions.

00:13:15 ◼   ► That's that's really, that's the formula here.

00:13:18 ◼   ► I don't want the show to end.

00:13:19 ◼   ► John writes down something that is like the perfect, his perfect formula for sauce or

00:13:24 ◼   ► whatever, and then you have to actually do it.

00:13:26 ◼   ► And with him watching, it'd be like that episode where I had to describe a picture to Tiff

00:13:31 ◼   ► and Julian and the whole time you're like waiting to see what they're doing at the end.

00:13:36 ◼   ► It would be like that.

00:13:37 ◼   ► So I'd be describing describing what Casey is supposed to do.

00:13:39 ◼   ► And at the very end, he would like put on his camera and show me what he's done.

00:13:42 ◼   ► It would just be not what I described.

00:13:45 ◼   ► I would like the show to continue.

00:13:47 ◼   ► I don't want the show to end.

00:13:48 ◼   ► And so because of that, I might veto this entire plan, even though it would be a very

00:13:52 ◼   ► funny end to this program.

00:13:53 ◼   ► But I think the chat room points out that Adam Ragusea has a cooking podcast.

00:13:57 ◼   ► I watch his YouTube channel and he puts his podcast up on YouTube.

00:14:01 ◼   ► Those are the videos that I never clicked through because I don't want to watch a YouTube

00:14:03 ◼   ► video of a podcast, but I guess it does exist.

00:14:05 ◼   ► I actually listened to the audio version of that podcast and I can tell you while it is

00:14:09 ◼   ► a podcast by a YouTube cooking person, it's not really a cooking.

00:14:15 ◼   ► If you're thinking about what a cooking podcast would be in the sense of like a cooking show,

00:14:21 ◼   ► it's not that.

00:14:22 ◼   ► It's not.

00:14:23 ◼   ► It's good though.

00:14:24 ◼   ► I do enjoy it actually, but it's not a cooking show.

00:14:26 ◼   ► All right.

00:14:27 ◼   ► So one way or another, we're going to work on member stuff, but again, no promises on

00:14:30 ◼   ► timeline, on content, on what it is, et cetera.

00:14:32 ◼   ► But we are promising that sometime in the next week and a half, you'll hear another

00:14:36 ◼   ► member special if you are a member about the hunt for red October, again, ATP.fm/join.

00:14:42 ◼   ► Let's do some follow up.

00:14:43 ◼   ► Getty Images is suing the creators of AI art tool stable diffusion for scraping its content.

00:14:48 ◼   ► Ruh roh shaggy.

00:14:50 ◼   ► What's going on here, Jon?

00:14:51 ◼   ► That's exactly what you would think from the article.

00:14:53 ◼   ► Getty Images said it believes that stability AI unlawfully copied and processed millions

00:14:57 ◼   ► of images protected by copyright to train its software and the Getty Images has commenced

00:15:00 ◼   ► legal proceedings in the High Court of Justice of London.

00:15:03 ◼   ► So we talked about this when we talk about AI stuff.

00:15:06 ◼   ► There's going to be court cases.

00:15:07 ◼   ► This is going to be lawsuits.

00:15:08 ◼   ► They have begun.

00:15:09 ◼   ► This seems like a pretty big one.

00:15:10 ◼   ► Getty Images is a, you know, we're talking about like these cases, the outcome of these

00:15:13 ◼   ► cases might be determined by how big the people involved are.

00:15:17 ◼   ► Getty Images is pretty big.

00:15:18 ◼   ► They have a lot of images.

00:15:19 ◼   ► They were surely scraped.

00:15:21 ◼   ► That's what this lawsuit alleges.

00:15:23 ◼   ► And there's a second one, which is a little bit different.

00:15:25 ◼   ► This is on behalf of a few artists.

00:15:29 ◼   ► Sarah Anderson, I don't know if you know Sarah Anderson from Sarah Scribbles.

00:15:33 ◼   ► If you click through on the URL that will be in the show notes, the URL is stable diffusion

00:15:39 ◼   ► litigation dot com.

00:15:42 ◼   ► I think you can see some of Sarah Anderson's work.

00:15:44 ◼   ► You've probably seen her comics online.

00:15:46 ◼   ► You're like, oh, yeah, that one.

00:15:47 ◼   ► I've seen those.

00:15:48 ◼   ► Anyway, she's one of three litigants.

00:15:51 ◼   ► Kelly McKiernan and Carla Ortiz have filed a class action lawsuit against stability,

00:15:56 ◼   ► AI, deviant art and mid journey for the use of stable diffusion.

00:15:59 ◼   ► Blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.

00:16:01 ◼   ► Same type deals as hey, you're using our stuff without our permission and your things.

00:16:05 ◼   ► And you know, we're suing you over it.

00:16:06 ◼   ► So I don't think this is the best way to come up with a reasonable way to deal with this

00:16:15 ◼   ► technology.

00:16:16 ◼   ► But in practice, you know, it takes a long time for lawmakers to grapple with an issue.

00:16:21 ◼   ► It takes less time for people to decide to sue.

00:16:24 ◼   ► And very often the courts get the first crack at this.

00:16:27 ◼   ► Different jurisdictions, different courts, different cases, different results, which

00:16:32 ◼   ► may be appealed to higher courts and so on and so forth.

00:16:34 ◼   ► But just to let you all know, the ball is rolling.

00:16:38 ◼   ► And I'm sure we were we are in for years and years of these things until and unless, you

00:16:44 ◼   ► know, the various laws of the lands get a grip on this.

00:16:47 ◼   ► Yeah, I think it's going to be a really kind of messy and ever moving thing, you know,

00:16:54 ◼   ► and for probably the next decade, at least, you know, just how the legality around using

00:16:59 ◼   ► copyrighted material for training and AI and you know, whether that counts as as violating

00:17:05 ◼   ► those copyrights without permission or whether it you know, whether it's the same as a human

00:17:08 ◼   ► just viewing things and then being able to create things in that style.

00:17:12 ◼   ► I again, I kind of lean towards the latter.

00:17:15 ◼   ► But we'll see how it all works out both legally and culturally.

00:17:18 ◼   ► Those are those are such unknowns right now.

00:17:21 ◼   ► And I think, you know, whatever we say now, again, I think we're gonna look back in five

00:17:25 ◼   ► or 10 years and like, wow, we were so wrong.

00:17:27 ◼   ► And you know, in one in either direction, and I can't really say which we know where

00:17:30 ◼   ► it's gonna go.

00:17:31 ◼   ► The Getty image of them was fun, because one of the one of the images related to it, I

00:17:35 ◼   ► don't know if it was in this article that we'll link or elsewhere.

00:17:38 ◼   ► But it was like a generated image from stable diffusion or whatever.

00:17:43 ◼   ► And it had the big Getty images.

00:17:45 ◼   ► I had the big images like low like watermark logo over the thing.

00:17:50 ◼   ► Of course, slightly mangled or whatever.

00:17:52 ◼   ► That's amazing.

00:17:53 ◼   ► Yeah, I mean, that's where you get into existing law, like, you know, trade dress and trademark

00:17:58 ◼   ► or it's like, no, you can't sell an image that this has Getty.

00:18:01 ◼   ► Because, you know, we have a trademark and Getty images and blah, blah, blah, blah.

00:18:05 ◼   ► And so like, that's, you know, we'll see how these these court cases end up going.

00:18:09 ◼   ► But you get the right judge and they can say, well, I don't need to make up any kind of

00:18:12 ◼   ► new law or new decisions.

00:18:14 ◼   ► Our existing laws already covered this.

00:18:16 ◼   ► And the fact that this is even possible, even though it's like, we didn't do it on purpose.

00:18:19 ◼   ► We didn't mean for it to show Getty images.

00:18:21 ◼   ► It just did.

00:18:22 ◼   ► We can't control it.

00:18:23 ◼   ► The judge is gonna be like, no, you can't, you can't sell things with the Disney logo

00:18:25 ◼   ► on them.

00:18:26 ◼   ► You can't sell things that say Getty images across them if you're not getting images.

00:18:30 ◼   ► But you know, stranger things happen in court cases.

00:18:33 ◼   ► So we'll see how this goes.

00:18:35 ◼   ► Indeed.

00:18:36 ◼   ► And then you are coming to us again live from the CES show floor with one last tidbit.

00:18:40 ◼   ► This is like the back room type thing.

00:18:42 ◼   ► This is like a YouTube video that I saw of like some something off to the side.

00:18:46 ◼   ► Some I just thought it was fascinating.

00:18:48 ◼   ► And maybe it's like an existing thing that is just, you know, been around for years.

00:18:52 ◼   ► This is the first I had heard of it.

00:18:55 ◼   ► Solid state cooling is relevant to our lives because we're gonna talk about some products

00:18:59 ◼   ► soon that have, you know, microprocessors and stuff in them that produce heat and are

00:19:03 ◼   ► very thin.

00:19:05 ◼   ► Solid state cooling.

00:19:06 ◼   ► You know, so solid state active cooling is exactly what it sounds like.

00:19:09 ◼   ► Active cooling means instead of just having, you know, a piece of metal stuck to something

00:19:15 ◼   ► with fins on it or whatever, and you just like allows the ambient air to cool it.

00:19:19 ◼   ► Active cooling means something is actively cooling it usually by moving that air across

00:19:24 ◼   ► those fins with the use of a fan or if it's active water cooling by pumping water to and

00:19:29 ◼   ► from it.

00:19:30 ◼   ► That's active cooling.

00:19:31 ◼   ► It's a distinct from passive cooling.

00:19:33 ◼   ► Solid state active cooling is active cooling with quote unquote solid state technology

00:19:40 ◼   ► as in like microchips and stuff.

00:19:41 ◼   ► It's like, well, how do you, how do you actively cool something with like silicon microchip

00:19:46 ◼   ► technology?

00:19:47 ◼   ► Well, this company whose name I have difficulty pronouncing it is for or systems F R O R E.

00:19:55 ◼   ► It's a YouTube video where you see somebody also try to pronounce something.

00:19:59 ◼   ► Anyway, this is what it looks like.

00:20:01 ◼   ► It's actually an SSD only it's not an SSD, but it's maybe like 2.8 millimeters thick

00:20:07 ◼   ► and the same dimensions as an SSD and it's hollow inside and inside are a bunch of these

00:20:13 ◼   ► little tiny MEMS, micro electric mechanical systems, M E M S.

00:20:18 ◼   ► I'll put a link to the Wikipedia page and that tiny little silicon based like microscopic

00:20:23 ◼   ► machines that vibrate shoving air downward at up to 120 miles an hour.

00:20:31 ◼   ► And it's like little, little tiny, it's kind of like what we're talking about.

00:20:34 ◼   ► There's 5,000 micro micro lenses on the micro lens of light on each, on each pixel.

00:20:39 ◼   ► These are tiny microscopic little moving things on a piece of silicon that shove air downward

00:20:45 ◼   ► onto the surface of a thing they want to cool.

00:20:48 ◼   ► And so it's basically, it's, you know, it looks like an SSD, but when you plug it in

00:20:52 ◼   ► and apply power to it, air comes rushing out of it.

00:20:54 ◼   ► It moves air without fans.

00:20:57 ◼   ► I mean, is it really solid state if it has moving parts though?

00:21:01 ◼   ► I, you know, it's solid state in the sense that it uses like silicon, you know, tech,

00:21:06 ◼   ► you know, same kind of technology you use to print circuits or whatever, but they're

00:21:09 ◼   ► actual machines, actual physical moving machines.

00:21:11 ◼   ► They're just very, very, very tight.

00:21:13 ◼   ► They're microscopic.

00:21:14 ◼   ► Yeah.

00:21:15 ◼   ► So you can quibble with it, but it's definitely not a fan.

00:21:17 ◼   ► I mean, I feel like the actual, like the real solid state active cooler is a thermoelectric

00:21:21 ◼   ► plate or that, you know, the Peltier, whatever.

00:21:23 ◼   ► Yeah.

00:21:24 ◼   ► Like those, I mean, they're, they're hilariously inefficient, but they do actively cool.

00:21:28 ◼   ► I mean, you can even get like little tiny desk fridges to, to kind of cool a few cans

00:21:33 ◼   ► of soda, like on your desk with the, one of those, you know, they, they do work, but you're

00:21:37 ◼   ► not moving the air then you're just moving the heat.

00:21:39 ◼   ► That's more like a heat pipe kind of, I know it's not the same thing as you're applying

00:21:42 ◼   ► electricity, but no, I think it's, it's, I think there's no question that a thermoelectric

00:21:46 ◼   ► plate is active cooling.

00:21:48 ◼   ► It's just doing it in a really kind of weird and hilariously inefficient way.

00:21:52 ◼   ► Yeah.

00:21:53 ◼   ► So the, the deal with these things and why we might care about them is obviously you

00:21:57 ◼   ► can make these pretty darn thin, right?

00:22:00 ◼   ► Cause I'm like a fan that has to be a certain thickness to, you know, hit the air and move

00:22:03 ◼   ► it.

00:22:04 ◼   ► These little guys work you know, with very little room.

00:22:07 ◼   ► Like I said, it's less than three millimeters high.

00:22:11 ◼   ► Still probably kind of thick to put on top of an SOC, but you, what you can do, what

00:22:15 ◼   ► they recommended in the, in the video, the thing that's the CEO or founder of the company

00:22:18 ◼   ► was saying you'd have a heat pipe going from your hot chip and then you'd put this solid

00:22:24 ◼   ► state cooler on top of the heat pipe.

00:22:27 ◼   ► So this thing would be alongside the thing you're cooling and it would just be a thin

00:22:30 ◼   ► heat pipe connecting to things, you know, vapor chamber, whatever.

00:22:34 ◼   ► The specs in it are interesting.

00:22:36 ◼   ► It produces more, what they call back pressure, more, more of a vacuum than a fan of equivalent

00:22:42 ◼   ► size.

00:22:43 ◼   ► It's not even close.

00:22:44 ◼   ► It's sometimes more pressure than a fan than a fan that is much larger than this noise

00:22:49 ◼   ► wise, which I care about.

00:22:51 ◼   ► They call it completely silent and it's like 21 decibels or something.

00:22:55 ◼   ► It's basically silent, right?

00:22:57 ◼   ► Quiet.

00:22:58 ◼   ► It's quiet.

00:22:59 ◼   ► Well, it does move air.

00:23:00 ◼   ► So if the air hits something and makes noise that could happen, but it's going to be more

00:23:05 ◼   ► quiet than a fan for sure.

00:23:06 ◼   ► Just because of the nature of how it works, all those tiny little things instead of a

00:23:09 ◼   ► thing that's spinning and all that stuff.

00:23:12 ◼   ► They claim that it is able to move air so powerfully that, as one of their big product

00:23:18 ◼   ► claims, that you can dust seal the laptop so you don't have to have completely open areas

00:23:25 ◼   ► for air to get sucked in and air to get pushed out.

00:23:27 ◼   ► You can actually have like, you know, filters there.

00:23:29 ◼   ► Normally you can't do that because the fan isn't powerful enough to shove air through

00:23:33 ◼   ► the filter.

00:23:34 ◼   ► And so you end up with dust getting inside your laptop and gumming up the fan and everything

00:23:37 ◼   ► like that.

00:23:38 ◼   ► Now obviously dust will...

00:23:39 ◼   ► Like, we've tried this before in the PC building worlds and the answer is you can suck air

00:23:46 ◼   ► in through filters, but then the filters just get full of dust.

00:23:51 ◼   ► Dust has to go somewhere.

00:23:52 ◼   ► You may be moving the problem from one place to the other, but it's possible to have...

00:23:57 ◼   ► If it moves air forcefully enough, it's possible to have dust filters that are not self-cleaning,

00:24:02 ◼   ► but that you can...

00:24:04 ◼   ► They're placed in such a way that you can keep them reasonably clear.

00:24:08 ◼   ► It's not going to be like the lint filter on your dryer that you have to scrape a bunch

00:24:11 ◼   ► of stuff off.

00:24:12 ◼   ► I think it'll last a pretty long time.

00:24:13 ◼   ► And I have had computers in the past that have had dust filter things, and they do get

00:24:18 ◼   ► clogged, but I've had dust filters on computers that I haven't cleaned for the life of the

00:24:22 ◼   ► computer, and just, you know, when I was done with it, I put it away into the attic and

00:24:26 ◼   ► it served for five years and never got cleaned.

00:24:28 ◼   ► If you have a cat in your house, maybe that doesn't work, but you know.

00:24:30 ◼   ► After that, you're going to pull a whole cat off of that thing.

00:24:33 ◼   ► Anyway.

00:24:34 ◼   ► By the way, remind me at some point to tell you how I destroyed Tiff's office with a hilarious

00:24:37 ◼   ► Shopvac problem, but yeah.

00:24:39 ◼   ► If they're directional, you got to make sure your switch is in the right direction.

00:24:42 ◼   ► No, that wasn't the problem.

00:24:44 ◼   ► The problem was at some point I emptied her Shopvac and did not put a new bag or filter

00:24:50 ◼   ► in it.

00:24:51 ◼   ► Oh, whoopsies.

00:24:52 ◼   ► And then she used it to suck up really fine glass grinding dust and basically filled her

00:25:01 ◼   ► office very quickly with this cloud of fine white hazardous powder.

00:25:08 ◼   ► It was horrendous.

00:25:09 ◼   ► Anyway, I had to get her a new Shopvac that day.

00:25:13 ◼   ► It was so bad.

00:25:14 ◼   ► You need one of these.

00:25:16 ◼   ► My mistake.

00:25:17 ◼   ► What are they called?

00:25:18 ◼   ► They're called AirJet.

00:25:19 ◼   ► Not a great name.

00:25:20 ◼   ► Anyway, this company has partners that they would, there's partners on the website that

00:25:25 ◼   ► are listed in Intel, Qualcomm, I forget the other company, but they're all mysterious

00:25:28 ◼   ► about who the partners might be.

00:25:30 ◼   ► I look at this and I really hope Apple is one of the partners because this would be

00:25:35 ◼   ► great in a thin laptop.

00:25:36 ◼   ► Now, the only thing I have questions about that wasn't addressed in the video that we're

00:25:39 ◼   ► going to show is obviously this thing like a fan, it takes power to remove power.

00:25:44 ◼   ► And so this thing can, you know, removes 10.5 Watts of heat by taking a maximum of 1.75

00:25:51 ◼   ► Watts of power.

00:25:52 ◼   ► He never said how that compares to how much power a fan takes.

00:25:56 ◼   ► Like what is the ratio of like you give a fan this many Watts and it removes this many

00:25:59 ◼   ► Watts of heat.

00:26:00 ◼   ► I do wonder if this is less efficient than a fan in terms of power consumption.

00:26:05 ◼   ► And I wonder about longevity.

00:26:07 ◼   ► Obviously this is a brand new technology.

00:26:09 ◼   ► Are these things going to get gummed up?

00:26:10 ◼   ► Are they going to break after a while?

00:26:13 ◼   ► You know, it's a, it's an unknown to me at least.

00:26:18 ◼   ► Maybe this is the type of technology that's been around for ages in some other industry

00:26:21 ◼   ► and it just now coming to personal computers, in which case there's some background on it.

00:26:24 ◼   ► And somebody who works in an industry will undoubtedly tell us later, but I was excited

00:26:29 ◼   ► by seeing this, this, you know, sort of off to the side at CES, not a big booth, not a

00:26:35 ◼   ► flashy company, a startup that will probably be bought by somebody if their product is

00:26:39 ◼   ► any good anyway.

00:26:40 ◼   ► But you know, me and the idea of cooling things without noise.

00:26:45 ◼   ► And in this case it's fanless, but it still makes air flow through it.

00:26:50 ◼   ► I think that's cool.

00:26:51 ◼   ► Yeah, it's a really cool concept.

00:26:52 ◼   ► I do have some doubts about it.

00:26:55 ◼   ► It's use in computers in particular because if they're only showing off this 10.5 watt

00:27:00 ◼   ► heat removal capacity on this one, like that's not a lot for a computer chip.

00:27:05 ◼   ► Oh, it's for, it's for laptops.

00:27:06 ◼   ► They were clear about that in the interview.

00:27:07 ◼   ► Like the interviewer was like, what about doing GPU's or whatever?

00:27:11 ◼   ► And the guy was like, no, we can't like, that's too much.

00:27:13 ◼   ► They're very, very thin.

00:27:15 ◼   ► This is the one you see here is the big one.

00:27:17 ◼   ► The smaller one only removes like five watts.

00:27:19 ◼   ► That's the thing.

00:27:20 ◼   ► But even a big one, like even if the big one is 10 watt heat capacity.

00:27:24 ◼   ► Yeah, these are all for like laptops, very thin laptops.

00:27:28 ◼   ► That's not even for most laptops.

00:27:31 ◼   ► It's for like, you know, the old MacBook adorable.

00:27:33 ◼   ► Remember, it's removing that many watts in heat.

00:27:38 ◼   ► It's not saying the SOC has to consume that many.

00:27:40 ◼   ► So basically if you take, for example, if you put the small one of these in a MacBook

00:27:47 ◼   ► Air, it would never throttle, right?

00:27:49 ◼   ► Because right now the MacBook Air is fanless and it throttles.

00:27:52 ◼   ► But the smallest one of these in there, no more throttling there.

00:27:56 ◼   ► You could also probably clock up the MacBook Pro a little bit higher if you put one of

00:28:00 ◼   ► these on in place of the fan, because it would be quiet and you could run it and move more

00:28:05 ◼   ► air across it.

00:28:06 ◼   ► And now you can clock the thing up and make it a little bit hotter.

00:28:08 ◼   ► Like that's, that's the application of these.

00:28:09 ◼   ► They're very, very tiny.

00:28:10 ◼   ► So honestly, I think the, I think even, even the M1 fan based systems or the, you know,

00:28:17 ◼   ► the M2 now, like maybe the base M2 you could, but even the M2 Pro is way above 10 watts.

00:28:23 ◼   ► Like I think you, you cross that threshold pretty soon.

00:28:27 ◼   ► These, the small one of these cool, you know, moves 10 times as much air as the fan that's

00:28:32 ◼   ► in the 16 inch MacBook Pro.

00:28:34 ◼   ► You know what I mean?

00:28:35 ◼   ► Right.

00:28:36 ◼   ► So you could replace both of the fans.

00:28:38 ◼   ► No way.

00:28:40 ◼   ► I guarantee you they're like the, the, the cooling capacity of the MacBook Pro's cooling

00:28:44 ◼   ► system is way more than even two of these, like 10, 20 watts.

00:28:48 ◼   ► You should look it up.

00:28:49 ◼   ► Like I bet the SOC in there is over 50 watts at full load.

00:28:53 ◼   ► Right.

00:28:54 ◼   ► But that's how many watts of power that the SOC takes.

00:28:56 ◼   ► It's not how many watts of power the cooling system removes from it.

00:29:00 ◼   ► That's that's what you're seeing here is a measurement of how many watts of heat are

00:29:03 ◼   ► removed from the thing by the cooling system.

00:29:05 ◼   ► No, I, well, okay.

00:29:07 ◼   ► I think those numbers are close, more closely related than you think, but that's fine.

00:29:10 ◼   ► You could be right.

00:29:11 ◼   ► I, I think at any rate, I think this is, this is going to be for low power devices.

00:29:15 ◼   ► This is not going to be for even mid range laptops.

00:29:18 ◼   ► I think you could definitely help on a mid range laptop, especially if you put more than

00:29:21 ◼   ► one of these things.

00:29:22 ◼   ► Again, the number we need to know is power consumption, right?

00:29:25 ◼   ► They told you how many Pascals of back pressure and you can probably get that number for fans.

00:29:29 ◼   ► Like how much, what is the, what is the back pressure of the fan system?

00:29:33 ◼   ► But what we don't know is how much power do the fans take?

00:29:35 ◼   ► Do the fans take 0.1 watts?

00:29:37 ◼   ► Do they take five watts?

00:29:39 ◼   ► Because that's part of the equation is how much power do I have to put into the cooling

00:29:43 ◼   ► system to take heat out of the rest of the system?

00:29:45 ◼   ► So anyway, they're, you know, they don't look like they're particularly close to coming

00:29:49 ◼   ► to market, but we'll see.

00:29:51 ◼   ► I'm sure there'll be in a PC first and let Apple buys them.

00:29:54 ◼   ► No, it was a fascinating technology.

00:29:56 ◼   ► And you know, the, the PC world discussion was pretty good and they have a couple of

00:30:00 ◼   ► videos on their website that I thought were very interesting.

00:30:02 ◼   ► And yeah, to say that they shoot out air at 120 miles an hour or whatever, it's just bananas.

00:30:07 ◼   ► They don't shoot it out of the side.

00:30:08 ◼   ► They shoot it downward at the thing they're cooling at 120 at which point it smacks into

00:30:13 ◼   ► it, breaks through the boundary layer and then just tumbles out at a leisurely pace.

00:30:17 ◼   ► You know, it's not, it's not, it's not a, you know, a, an air laser that's going to

00:30:20 ◼   ► cut your finger off, but it does shove the air downward and that tiny one millimeter

00:30:24 ◼   ► cavity at the thing they're cooling very quickly.

00:30:26 ◼   ► It's like one of those Dyson hand blade things.

00:30:28 ◼   ► It's like the most awkward to use hand dryer ever in a bathroom.

00:30:32 ◼   ► You ever seen the germ spreaders?

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00:32:29 ◼   ► Twitter decided to kill off all of the good third party, third party Twitter clients.

00:32:38 ◼   ► A few days ago, I don't, uh, I don't remember exactly when it was, but a few days ago, uh,

00:32:42 ◼   ► all of a sudden tweet bot was showing like authentication errors.

00:32:45 ◼   ► Uh, Twitter, if it was showing errors, at least on iOS, if not on the desktop and a

00:32:50 ◼   ► few other clients, I don't remember which one's off hand.

00:32:53 ◼   ► And it seemed pretty clear pretty quickly that this was likely to be a deliberate act,

00:32:59 ◼   ► but nobody really knew.

00:33:01 ◼   ► And then, um, I think it was yesterday, uh, the Twitter developer account tweeted the

00:33:08 ◼   ► following.

00:33:09 ◼   ► Twitter is enforcing its longstanding API rules that may result in some apps not working.

00:33:14 ◼   ► Oh, cool.

00:33:15 ◼   ► Thanks.

00:33:16 ◼   ► Thanks guys.

00:33:17 ◼   ► That's real helpful.

00:33:18 ◼   ► Awesome.

00:33:19 ◼   ► Well done.

00:33:20 ◼   ► I really appreciate your, uh, really appreciate your hard work on that.

00:33:21 ◼   ► Really clearing things up for us.

00:33:23 ◼   ► Uh, but yeah, it seems like, uh, and allegedly SpaceKaren has, has made the call on this.

00:33:29 ◼   ► It seems like Twitter's cut off all the good third party, third party clients and, uh,

00:33:34 ◼   ► pour one out for Twitter because, uh, I'm, I mean, I'm, I don't plan to use the official

00:33:40 ◼   ► client because I know there are fans, fans amongst people I know and respect, but I find

00:33:44 ◼   ► their first party client to be frigging terrible.

00:33:46 ◼   ► So, uh, yeah, uh, this sucks.

00:33:49 ◼   ► This sucks.

00:33:50 ◼   ► Um, there's been a lot of, uh, podcasts that came out earlier in the week that have already

00:33:53 ◼   ► covered this pretty well in certain angles.

00:33:55 ◼   ► And I, and I think I agree with some of the large themes like, you know, Ben Thompson

00:33:58 ◼   ► has been on the record for years basically saying like Twitter probably should have killed

00:34:03 ◼   ► third party clients a long time ago.

00:34:04 ◼   ► And I think, you know, you could make a case for that.

00:34:07 ◼   ► Um, you can make a case for this being, you know, a reasonable decision to have been made

00:34:13 ◼   ► and on the topic before you move on for it.

00:34:16 ◼   ► I don't actually agree with that.

00:34:17 ◼   ► Like the, the, the, the idea that, uh, it's good to cut off third party clients.

00:34:21 ◼   ► It makes sense only at the, like the first level of, of logic and thinking about it.

00:34:26 ◼   ► And the idea there is, um, once, once, once Twitter decided to go to an ad based model,

00:34:32 ◼   ► um, since third party apps didn't show ads and since Twitter never added apps, added

00:34:38 ◼   ► ads to the third party API, which they could have done by the way, um, it's like, well,

00:34:42 ◼   ► we need to control the client because if we're gonna have an ad based business, people can

00:34:45 ◼   ► skip ads if they can do third party clients or whatever.

00:34:47 ◼   ► Right?

00:34:48 ◼   ► So it's like, Oh, well see, once they chose that as their business model, it makes perfect

00:34:51 ◼   ► sense to get rid of third party clients.

00:34:54 ◼   ► Only if you think the only two factors here are third party clients don't show ads.

00:34:59 ◼   ► We want to show ads, therefore bad third party clients, but third party clients as they existed

00:35:03 ◼   ► on Twitter, there's more to them than just their clients that you people use and they

00:35:09 ◼   ► don't see ads.

00:35:10 ◼   ► Right?

00:35:11 ◼   ► So first of all, so few people in terms of like percentage wise of Twitter's customers

00:35:16 ◼   ► use third party clients, right?

00:35:18 ◼   ► And you could say, well, that's because they killed the API or whatever, but either way,

00:35:22 ◼   ► even in their heyday, I feel like the first party client was massively dominant.

00:35:26 ◼   ► So the third party client Twitter users, I mean, just, you know, for the people listening

00:35:30 ◼   ► to this show, I bet like how many people use third party clients?

00:35:32 ◼   ► We have probably one of the nerdier audience and I'm sure most people use the official

00:35:36 ◼   ► client.

00:35:37 ◼   ► There's such a small number that they're not really hurting your ad sales that much.

00:35:42 ◼   ► And the people who are using those third party clients are probably more likely to be the

00:35:47 ◼   ► most engaged Twitter users.

00:35:49 ◼   ► Maybe they produce the most content or whatever.

00:35:51 ◼   ► Now they're saying this for a fact, but it is potentially the case that the people who

00:35:56 ◼   ► are using the third party clients provide more value than they're removing by not seeing

00:36:02 ◼   ► ads, because they're already opting out of it.

00:36:04 ◼   ► They aren't going to click on your ads anyway, and they may be providing value to the platform

00:36:08 ◼   ► by adding content.

00:36:09 ◼   ► And that's why I think that just the blanket idea that they should have killed them because

00:36:13 ◼   ► they're going ad based doesn't take into account that this was a tiny minority that was weird.

00:36:17 ◼   ► It was a weird minority.

00:36:18 ◼   ► And I said, I guess I don't know for a fact that they're a weird minority that is particularly

00:36:23 ◼   ► lucrative or not, but it's possible.

00:36:26 ◼   ► And obviously only Twitter would know or Twitter back when they were competent and actually

00:36:29 ◼   ► understood anything about their business and could look this up.

00:36:31 ◼   ► When was that?

00:36:33 ◼   ► I bet in the past they had people, when they had employees, they had it too.

00:36:37 ◼   ► They had that, but when did they ever understand their business?

00:36:41 ◼   ► That's I think asking a lot of the previous administration.

00:36:44 ◼   ► Because the third party things are just such a sideshow.

00:36:47 ◼   ► It's taken this long for Twitter to even bother doing anything about them.

00:36:49 ◼   ► They're just such a tiny sliver, but that tiny sliver had attributes about it.

00:36:55 ◼   ► It had a history behind it.

00:36:57 ◼   ► They were enthusiastic users.

00:36:58 ◼   ► They were people who were doing complicated things with Twitter.

00:37:02 ◼   ► Maybe they produced more content.

00:37:05 ◼   ► As Ben Thompson has also pointed out in Mr. Gregory, they were also the tiny little sliver

00:37:10 ◼   ► that was probably the easiest to monetize.

00:37:12 ◼   ► Because back in the day, they were the most invested in the platform.

00:37:15 ◼   ► So you could have started charging them money and made the API good and charged for API

00:37:19 ◼   ► usage.

00:37:20 ◼   ► Twitter didn't do any of that.

00:37:21 ◼   ► But setting that aside, I just feel like the accepted wisdom that they should have just

00:37:25 ◼   ► gotten rid of all third party clients when they went to advertising, I don't think is

00:37:28 ◼   ► entirely a slam dunk.

00:37:30 ◼   ► There's more nuance to it than that.

00:37:32 ◼   ► And only the past more competent Twitter knows the answer to that because we don't get to

00:37:37 ◼   ► see the information on the inside.

00:37:40 ◼   ► But I think you could make a case-- I mean, look, I run a web service that has a private

00:37:45 ◼   ► API that my app uses to talk to the web service.

00:37:47 ◼   ► I frequently get requests from people who are like, hey, when are you going to make

00:37:51 ◼   ► an Overcast API?

00:37:52 ◼   ► I want to play with it or make my own alternative stuff or whatever.

00:37:56 ◼   ► And my answer is, sorry, no, I'm not doing that.

00:37:59 ◼   ► I want to control what this does.

00:38:01 ◼   ► And I could see the argument for that.

00:38:02 ◼   ► And you could also say lots of other things like, hey, how about leaving the third party

00:38:08 ◼   ► API where it was but just making it only available to paid subscription members?

00:38:13 ◼   ► So if I wanted to use a Twitter app--

00:38:15 ◼   ► What was I saying?

00:38:16 ◼   ► To monetize the API.

00:38:17 ◼   ► They're the easiest to monetize because they're already invested.

00:38:19 ◼   ► Right.

00:38:20 ◼   ► Yeah.

00:38:21 ◼   ► I would have gladly-- assuming I was still using Twitter for other reasons, I would have

00:38:23 ◼   ► gladly paid the $10 or $20 a month per account to access it via API.

00:38:30 ◼   ► And you have to worry about the development cost to develop the functionality.

00:38:34 ◼   ► But you're never going to make tons of money off them because they're such a small sliver.

00:38:38 ◼   ► But it also means that you can zero them out.

00:38:41 ◼   ► Whatever harm you think they're doing to your ad business, you can cancel that out pretty

00:38:45 ◼   ► easily with lots of different techniques to just say, well, these users were taking 1%

00:38:50 ◼   ► of our ad revenue away.

00:38:51 ◼   ► Can we get that back?

00:38:52 ◼   ► Can we get 1.2% of the ad revenue they would have made back by charging for API?

00:38:56 ◼   ► And now they're just off to the side.

00:38:58 ◼   ► And that sits there.

00:38:59 ◼   ► And even if you just ignore them and neglect them, they're not hurting your balance sheet

00:39:02 ◼   ► anymore and you could allow it to exist.

00:39:05 ◼   ► And it would produce goodwill.

00:39:07 ◼   ► And all the historical baggage of API use with Twitter-- because it's not just arbitrary

00:39:11 ◼   ► like, hey, I want an overcast API.

00:39:13 ◼   ► Twitter grew up with the API.

00:39:15 ◼   ► That API and those apps are an important part of Twitter's history and the development of

00:39:19 ◼   ► the platform.

00:39:20 ◼   ► And the people who are using it are the most enthusiastic and engaged users because of

00:39:24 ◼   ► that history.

00:39:25 ◼   ► So it's not in a vacuum like a business case.

00:39:28 ◼   ► Should we have an API?

00:39:29 ◼   ► Should we charge for it?

00:39:30 ◼   ► In the specific case of Twitter, the API and the apps built around it really helped build

00:39:35 ◼   ► the platform.

00:39:36 ◼   ► I'm not saying they're owed anything.

00:39:37 ◼   ► But I'm saying the historical baggage of that means that those API users are not the same

00:39:44 ◼   ► as the regular Twitter users in terms of influence, engagement, ability to be monetized.

00:39:51 ◼   ► They are kind of a special case.

00:39:52 ◼   ► And it was in some ways right for them to be treated as a special case for a long time.

00:39:57 ◼   ► It's just they were treated as a special case of neglect.

00:39:59 ◼   ► And now they're treated as a special case of getting [BLEEP] over.

00:40:02 ◼   ► Yeah.

00:40:03 ◼   ► And wow, did they.

00:40:04 ◼   ► I mean, talk about mishandling a situation.

00:40:08 ◼   ► I mean, this is, again, classic Elon Musk.

00:40:12 ◼   ► Well, more classic toddler, let's say.

00:40:14 ◼   ► Because I can't think of another-- can you think of-- try to think of it like an indie

00:40:19 ◼   ► business, like a one-person app, like a literal one-person app who has handled something this

00:40:25 ◼   ► badly, who has cut off some service that people were using for a decade with zero notice and

00:40:33 ◼   ► zero communication.

00:40:34 ◼   ► I can't think of one.

00:40:36 ◼   ► Zero notice, I could probably think of like, oh, some person got into a car accident and

00:40:41 ◼   ► they had to stop developing an app and they just cut it off and said, yeah, I'm sorry.

00:40:46 ◼   ► You're not getting your money back.

00:40:47 ◼   ► I can't develop this app anymore.

00:40:49 ◼   ► Sorry, I'm a one-person thing.

00:40:51 ◼   ► Tough luck.

00:40:52 ◼   ► But they would still communicate that.

00:40:54 ◼   ► They would write a post on their blog and say, sorry, I can't work on my cool app anymore.

00:41:00 ◼   ► I also can't give you the money back because I needed to pay my rent later.

00:41:03 ◼   ► Right?

00:41:04 ◼   ► And this is like-- This is worse than that.

00:41:07 ◼   ► This is a multi-billion dollar company where they literally didn't say anything.

00:41:11 ◼   ► They didn't even send a form email that said, yeah, we're cutting off your app.

00:41:15 ◼   ► Just literally nothing until for a week.

00:41:18 ◼   ► At least like when the app store d*cks you over, they tell you.

00:41:20 ◼   ► Yeah, they send you a form email that says section 3.1.2, you're violating blah, blah,

00:41:25 ◼   ► blah.

00:41:26 ◼   ► No, they don't explain, but like you get something.

00:41:28 ◼   ► And even when it's total BS, yeah, you-- Because like, you know, no one knew for those first,

00:41:32 ◼   ► you know, first couple of days, no one really knew whether the API just had like some downtime,

00:41:38 ◼   ► like because that's also plausible with how many, you know, Twitter has been breaking in

00:41:43 ◼   ► weird subtle ways.

00:41:44 ◼   ► So it's like, you know, it could have been just like, oh, something was messed up and

00:41:47 ◼   ► no one knew.

00:41:48 ◼   ► I mean, again, the way they did this, like I like how Jason Snell put it.

00:41:51 ◼   ► Like he said, like it was, you know, not only was it like, you know, badly done, but it

00:41:54 ◼   ► was also just cowardly.

00:41:56 ◼   ► Like dishonorable, cowardly, just terrible.

00:41:59 ◼   ► I mean, look, you know, just from my point of view as a user, Twitter to me has always

00:42:04 ◼   ► been the third party app I'm using.

00:42:07 ◼   ► You know, for a while I used Twitterific for a while, I used Tweety for a while, and for

00:42:11 ◼   ► most of the recent last few years I've been using Tweetbot.

00:42:13 ◼   ► Like to me, Twitter is Tweetbot.

00:42:17 ◼   ► If I would ever have to use the website, it almost felt like I was using a whole different

00:42:21 ◼   ► like foreign thing because it was so different.

00:42:24 ◼   ► And so on some level I can kind of see if Twitter wants to have, you know, ultimate

00:42:28 ◼   ► control over what their product is, I can kind of see, well, if they look at an app,

00:42:33 ◼   ► that's a pretty different experience.

00:42:34 ◼   ► I've never seen a Twitter ad ever.

00:42:37 ◼   ► All the new products they would launch and things they would try, all the trends and

00:42:40 ◼   ► the follow, you know, the hot hashtags or whatever.

00:42:43 ◼   ► I never saw any of that crap.

00:42:45 ◼   ► I had a very different experience of Twitter as a service.

00:42:48 ◼   ► My experience of Twitter was Tweetbot.

00:42:51 ◼   ► And so as a user, to have all of us who were having that experience or all the people who

00:42:57 ◼   ► were using Twitterific or whatever, any other apps that were cut off, to have us all of

00:43:01 ◼   ► a sudden just say, oh, you know what, screw that, now just use the Twitter app.

00:43:04 ◼   ► To me, I mean, I was already gone really, but if I wasn't already gone, that would have

00:43:09 ◼   ► been the last straw.

00:43:10 ◼   ► I'm sorry, like, I'm not going to just jump from this nice experience that I've been having

00:43:15 ◼   ► for like a decade and all of a sudden jump into this total crap show of whatever their

00:43:21 ◼   ► first party stuff is, which is so radically different.

00:43:25 ◼   ► And so again, not only was this poorly done, not only was this like the most cowardly chicken

00:43:31 ◼   ► poop way to do this.

00:43:32 ◼   ► It was like, you know, talk about like the quality of person you're dealing with here.

00:43:36 ◼   ► I mean, this shows the worst character.

00:43:41 ◼   ► It's like a little kid when they do something and don't want to talk about it.

00:43:45 ◼   ► Why would you ever, why would anybody ever build anything against Twitter again?

00:43:49 ◼   ► Why would anybody ever invest in Twitter again?

00:43:52 ◼   ► Hell, why would anybody ever advertise on Twitter again?

00:43:56 ◼   ► Like you're seeing the character of the person who now runs it.

00:44:00 ◼   ► Every week that goes by, he's revealing himself to be a worse and worse person.

00:44:05 ◼   ► It's like when Trump was president and you know, we knew it was going to be bad even

00:44:10 ◼   ► at the beginning, but it just seemed like every single day there was some new scandal

00:44:14 ◼   ► and some new lows that we were reaching every day.

00:44:18 ◼   ► And it was like, I can't even believe how bad it, you know, every day you're like, it

00:44:21 ◼   ► can't possibly get worse than yesterday.

00:44:24 ◼   ► And then something would happen and it would get worse.

00:44:26 ◼   ► That's what he is.

00:44:28 ◼   ► Like that what now that we have an Elon Twitter, he is revealing himself to be that same level

00:44:33 ◼   ► of terrible, incompetent, rash, cowardly chicken person.

00:44:40 ◼   ► He is so he's so bad.

00:44:42 ◼   ► Like some common moves like the one there was a story a couple of weeks ago of like,

00:44:47 ◼   ► just like Trump didn't like to pay his bills.

00:44:48 ◼   ► Elon's way of saving money is we're just not going to pay rent and we're not going to pay

00:44:51 ◼   ► bills anymore.

00:44:52 ◼   ► Like aside from firing everybody and doing all that stuff, it's just like, well, let's

00:44:55 ◼   ► just not pay rent because it's going to take a while for, you know, it's a calculation.

00:44:59 ◼   ► It's going to take a while for this stuff to wind its way through the court and we'll

00:45:02 ◼   ► battle them and blah, blah, blah.

00:45:04 ◼   ► We can save a lot of money right now by just not paying bills, you know, and Trump has

00:45:07 ◼   ► famously would just, you know, not pay vendors for things and say, oh, if you don't like

00:45:10 ◼   ► it, come sue me.

00:45:11 ◼   ► It's just, you know, it's so terrible.

00:45:14 ◼   ► Like it's, that's why I keep trying to compare it to like the smallest possible thing.

00:45:19 ◼   ► Forget about a multi-billion dollar company has any individual human.

00:45:21 ◼   ► Maybe that's not fair because individual humans might have feel like shame or guilt or something,

00:45:25 ◼   ► but like even like a medium business, like just no matter how bad, you know, how bad

00:45:30 ◼   ► somebody handles something, at least they own, like, like at least they communicate

00:45:35 ◼   ► the fact that they're doing something.

00:45:36 ◼   ► This is, this is like, cause we, to this day, we still don't actually have any clear communication

00:45:41 ◼   ► to any of these individual developers that the thing that happened to them was intentional

00:45:45 ◼   ► because that tweet doesn't reference anybody specifically.

00:45:49 ◼   ► And that tweet also mischaracterizes it.

00:45:50 ◼   ► Like they actually like the tweet basically, yeah, it said something on the lines of like,

00:45:54 ◼   ► we're, we're enforcing our rules.

00:45:56 ◼   ► Some, some apps might not work.

00:45:57 ◼   ► So first of all, it doesn't, it doesn't name any apps and it doesn't say what rules and

00:46:00 ◼   ► also they weren't breaking any rules.

00:46:03 ◼   ► Like Twitter was, Twitter has changed the API rules over the years and the, and you

00:46:08 ◼   ► know, these high quality apps that were using them had, first of all, relationships with

00:46:11 ◼   ► people in Twitter and they would go back and forth and they would, but you know, but they

00:46:16 ◼   ► would make sure they were following whatever the rule as the rules would change.

00:46:19 ◼   ► These apps would work with Twitter and follow them.

00:46:22 ◼   ► They were following all the rules.

00:46:24 ◼   ► They were not breaking any rules.

00:46:26 ◼   ► So not only was this like poorly communicated, the thing is the current management, their

00:46:30 ◼   ► current employees at Twitter probably don't know what the rules are.

00:46:33 ◼   ► That is one, that was one of the plausible theories is that like many of these apps had

00:46:36 ◼   ► specific special deals because of the, again, the history that I was talking about before

00:46:41 ◼   ► and the people who knew about those deals or knew where they were written down have

00:46:44 ◼   ► long since been fired.

00:46:46 ◼   ► But but again, so pretend all that's true and it's just a bunch of new employees who

00:46:50 ◼   ► don't know any of this information.

00:46:51 ◼   ► And they're like, oh, this rule says you're only supposed to have 10 of these and you

00:46:53 ◼   ► have 20.

00:46:54 ◼   ► I'm going to cut off your app.

00:46:56 ◼   ► Okay, then do that and be incompetent and then send out a form email that says we cut

00:47:01 ◼   ► off your app because you had 10 of these, 20 of these things and you're supposed to

00:47:03 ◼   ► have 10.

00:47:04 ◼   ► Like communicate, tell people what you're doing.

00:47:07 ◼   ► Don't just like secretly turn off the light switch and run out of the room and then put

00:47:11 ◼   ► your fingers in your ears and go, I can't hear you.

00:47:13 ◼   ► La la la la la.

00:47:14 ◼   ► Like we literally don't know anything about this other than this one tweet that doesn't

00:47:18 ◼   ► address any individual app.

00:47:20 ◼   ► So we just all have to assume you're a bunch of jerks.

00:47:23 ◼   ► You're too scared to say to the people that you did a thing and you're just hoping it

00:47:30 ◼   ► will go away.

00:47:31 ◼   ► It's like ghosting someone on text.

00:47:32 ◼   ► It's the closest thing I can come up with is like, I don't want to deal with you anymore.

00:47:35 ◼   ► I'm just never going to respond to your text.

00:47:37 ◼   ► I'm going to block your number.

00:47:38 ◼   ► Yeah, but it's but with some implied slander as well.

00:47:41 ◼   ► Yeah, but it's and it's your fault because you did something wrong, right?

00:47:44 ◼   ► Right.

00:47:45 ◼   ► Yeah.

00:47:46 ◼   ► Not only am I not going to talk to you, but I'm going to say in public that you broke

00:47:47 ◼   ► the rules like that.

00:47:49 ◼   ► Without naming you.

00:47:50 ◼   ► They could sue.

00:47:51 ◼   ► Like, I mean, they're not going to, of course, but like, they can't the way, I mean, my God,

00:47:56 ◼   ► like just these are like, he's such a terrible person.

00:47:59 ◼   ► Like it just, it just keeps digging and digging.

00:48:02 ◼   ► Like my God, I just, I can't believe how like this is going to go down.

00:48:08 ◼   ► I mean, look, couldn't have happened to a worse person, right?

00:48:10 ◼   ► I mean, maybe, maybe he and Zuckerberg can get coffee sometime, but like, I am so happy

00:48:15 ◼   ► to see how much, not only how much money he's losing, but how much his reputation is just

00:48:21 ◼   ► going down the toilet.

00:48:24 ◼   ► Reputation is going up with sociopaths though.

00:48:27 ◼   ► They love him.

00:48:28 ◼   ► I, and I say this as previously a very big Tesla fan.

00:48:31 ◼   ► I want to see him fail.

00:48:33 ◼   ► And you know, normally I'm not that much of a vindictive person, but he's just such a

00:48:38 ◼   ► shithead and he just keeps showing it more and more and more.

00:48:42 ◼   ► I will enjoy continuing to see him fail.

00:48:46 ◼   ► And I feel bad for the people who are affected along the way, but he deserves this.

00:48:51 ◼   ► Just like Zuck, the amount of value that he has either lost, destroyed or both, depending

00:48:56 ◼   ► on how you characterize it, in such a short time is astounding.

00:49:00 ◼   ► And if he goes down in history as the person who lost the most money the fastest, oh, that

00:49:05 ◼   ► would be such sweet, such sweet revenge.

00:49:08 ◼   ► I think probably he still has too much money to face any consequences for his actions because

00:49:13 ◼   ► that's the kind of place we live.

00:49:15 ◼   ► Well, I mean, I think Tesla's other shareholders might have different opinions on that, but

00:49:18 ◼   ► we'll see.

00:49:19 ◼   ► We'll see.

00:49:20 ◼   ► I'm not a financial person, but, but you know, part of Tesla's fall over the last few months

00:49:23 ◼   ► has been because of other factors, you know, global factors, industry factors and everything.

00:49:28 ◼   ► But there's also no doubt that a large part of it has been him and what he personally

00:49:32 ◼   ► has done and the reputation that he personally is destroying of himself and his brand.

00:49:38 ◼   ► And like, so, you know, there is no, no doubt that a large part of the decline is his fault

00:49:44 ◼   ► and you know, it sucks for the other Tesla investors.

00:49:47 ◼   ► But again, there are very few people in the world who deserve to lose as much as he does

00:49:52 ◼   ► right now.

00:49:53 ◼   ► And so I'm looking forward to his continuing unnecessary proving to the world that he is

00:49:58 ◼   ► a terrible person and also that he is super incompetent.

00:50:03 ◼   ► We'll keep watching, but I'm watching from increasing distance and yeah, I'm totally

00:50:07 ◼   ► gone from Twitter now.

00:50:08 ◼   ► Yeah.

00:50:09 ◼   ► I mean, I don't plan on looking at Twitter unless for some, I have a compelling reason

00:50:14 ◼   ► to do so.

00:50:15 ◼   ► You know, I used to pop open tweet bot from time to time, just make sure nothing was really

00:50:19 ◼   ► going on.

00:50:20 ◼   ► And now, you know, if I open a link on Twitter or to Twitter on my phone and thus the official

00:50:26 ◼   ► app opens and maybe I'll pop into my notifications or something, but I am not going to Twitter

00:50:31 ◼   ► actively at all anymore.

00:50:32 ◼   ► I mean, like I deleted the other day cause I'm like, you know, I'm never going to follow

00:50:35 ◼   ► him.

00:50:36 ◼   ► Who cares?

00:50:37 ◼   ► Like if I open up the webpage, fine, whatever.

00:50:38 ◼   ► Um, but like, bad idea.

00:50:40 ◼   ► Cause like anyway, but what I'm saying, but you know, because of what I was saying earlier

00:50:44 ◼   ► about how, you know, my experience of Twitter, the service has always really been, you know,

00:50:49 ◼   ► tweet bot the app.

00:50:51 ◼   ► When I switched over to ivory, yes, I'm bragging about being in the ivory beta and Oh God,

00:50:54 ◼   ► I'm dying for a Mac version.

00:50:56 ◼   ► But I'll tell you what, I have tried every Mac client that everyone says is like, Oh,

00:51:01 ◼   ► this is a good Mac Mastodon app.

00:51:02 ◼   ► And I, I have yet to find one where that's the case.

00:51:05 ◼   ► Uh, anyway, um, that's, that's a separate day.

00:51:07 ◼   ► If anybody has any recommendations that for some reason I haven't tried yet, please let

00:51:10 ◼   ► me know.

00:51:11 ◼   ► Um, but I want to be able to manage multiple accounts and have a tab that can show mentions

00:51:16 ◼   ► and not all combined mentioned and notifications.

00:51:19 ◼   ► And it seems like none of the apps are really good at that, uh, or offer it at all.

00:51:24 ◼   ► Some, like some of them don't offer it at all.

00:51:26 ◼   ► Anyway, because my experience of Twitter was always tweet bot, really.

00:51:31 ◼   ► Once I got onto ivory, which is just tweet bot for, for Mastodon, basically, it was like

00:51:37 ◼   ► a drop in replacement.

00:51:39 ◼   ► Like because almost everyone who I followed on Twitter was over on Mastodon already.

00:51:44 ◼   ► And like, seriously, for me, it's like a very large percentage of the people I followed

00:51:49 ◼   ► on Twitter, like using a tool like move to Don, a very large percentage of them aren't,

00:51:53 ◼   ► I was able to just find a follow on Mastodon very, very easily.

00:51:55 ◼   ► Um, and so it was just a drop in replacement.

00:51:59 ◼   ► And so it doesn't actually feel any different to me now that I'm using Mastodon instead

00:52:04 ◼   ► of Twitter.

00:52:05 ◼   ► I, it was, I was able to replace it very easily.

00:52:07 ◼   ► And you know, this is part of the reason why companies like Twitter don't like having third

00:52:12 ◼   ► party clients because they don't want someone else to be able to build an alternative network

00:52:16 ◼   ► and have everyone just kind of scoot right over there super easily.

00:52:19 ◼   ► You know, they want to build more of a moat or whatever.

00:52:21 ◼   ► Um, but because I really wasn't using Twitter, the client, I was using Twitter, the backend.

00:52:28 ◼   ► I was able to just move over and it's fine.

00:52:31 ◼   ► And the only hole in my, in my formerly Twitter occupied user life is the Mac app.

00:52:37 ◼   ► It's driving me nuts though.

00:52:38 ◼   ► Oh, it's bad.

00:52:39 ◼   ► Yeah.

00:52:40 ◼   ► Like I'm just not even checking it until like I'm on my phone like at night or whatever.

00:52:43 ◼   ► Which is great.

00:52:44 ◼   ► It's being, honestly, it's being great for my productivity.

00:52:46 ◼   ► Like I, I've been getting so much more done on my computer because I'm not constantly

00:52:49 ◼   ► browsing Twitter on the side.

00:52:52 ◼   ► But yeah, it's, I am, uh, once we have a decent Mac Mastodon app, um, I won't feel like I'm

00:53:00 ◼   ► missing anything.

00:53:01 ◼   ► Like I'm already not missing Twitter itself.

00:53:03 ◼   ► I'm kind of just missing the way things were.

00:53:06 ◼   ► But once you have your app situation settled out, um, you won't miss it at all.

00:53:12 ◼   ► And that's where I am now.

00:53:13 ◼   ► I don't miss Twitter at all.

00:53:16 ◼   ► And you know, we'll see what happens whenever there was like the next big world news event

00:53:19 ◼   ► that's breaking and you know, you want to get up to date now, now, now, you know, that

00:53:22 ◼   ► it might be a little bit different then.

00:53:24 ◼   ► Um, and, and again, and we don't know how Mastodon is going to scale, you know, community

00:53:29 ◼   ► wise and you know, certain things, there are certain challenges and potential pitfalls

00:53:34 ◼   ► there.

00:53:35 ◼   ► But as of now, it's great.

00:53:37 ◼   ► Most of the community I want to follow is already on Mastodon and it's fine.

00:53:43 ◼   ► And so to me, I'm just like, all right, you know, peace out Twitter.

00:53:46 ◼   ► I, you know, I, I don't need Twitter for anything anymore.

00:53:49 ◼   ► So part of this non non action, non announced BS, passive aggressive grade school nonsense

00:53:58 ◼   ► that's going on is the fact that not all third party Twitter clients were killed.

00:54:04 ◼   ► Just some of them.

00:54:05 ◼   ► It seems like it was probably the most popular, but who can say when the company doesn't say

00:54:10 ◼   ► a damn word about it.

00:54:12 ◼   ► But anyway, what this means is that for me, cause I still do use Twitter cause it's not

00:54:16 ◼   ► everyone I follow is over on Mastodon.

00:54:18 ◼   ► I tried using the first party client.

00:54:20 ◼   ► I honestly, I, I can't do it.

00:54:23 ◼   ► It's it's, it's terrible.

00:54:25 ◼   ► It's too bad.

00:54:26 ◼   ► It's I can't do it.

00:54:28 ◼   ► So I just, there's a bunch of other third party clients that are smaller third party

00:54:31 ◼   ► clowns clients that now I'm using them instead.

00:54:34 ◼   ► And then, you know, we mentioned, alluded this earlier.

00:54:37 ◼   ► Twitter's been not down, but differently functional.

00:54:42 ◼   ► Let's say over the past several weeks, uh, Gruber mentioned this.

00:54:46 ◼   ► I thought I was, I thought it was just me until he mentioned it as well.

00:54:49 ◼   ► Like I look at my mentions, right?

00:54:51 ◼   ► I'm a Twitter completionist.

00:54:53 ◼   ► Twitter doesn't seem to be showing me my mentions anymore.

00:54:56 ◼   ► Forget about the official client.

00:54:57 ◼   ► Forget about the website.

00:54:59 ◼   ► Third party clients that, you know, that don't do any algorithmic anything.

00:55:04 ◼   ► It's just, when I look at my mentions, there's like nothing there.

00:55:07 ◼   ► Gruber was getting the situation where he was seeing like five mentions in the official

00:55:13 ◼   ► first party app and 200 in a third party app and 100 in a different third party app.

00:55:19 ◼   ► It's like broken.

00:55:20 ◼   ► Like you can't, there's no place you can go anymore to if you, and obviously it's just

00:55:25 ◼   ► me, who cares?

00:55:26 ◼   ► But my weird Twitter completionist things, if I want to know that I'm seeing all the

00:55:28 ◼   ► tweets in my timeline, it's just literally not possible anymore because of Twitter's

00:55:32 ◼   ► semi-brokenness.

00:55:33 ◼   ► But to the extent that I'm looking at Twitter at all, I'm doing it through different third

00:55:36 ◼   ► party applications.

00:55:38 ◼   ► The final FU thing on this whole Twitter third party app is, aside from destroying the livelihood

00:55:44 ◼   ► of all these developers who have popular third party Twitter applications, there is an aspect

00:55:50 ◼   ► to it that may actually end up costing them money because a lot of these applications

00:55:53 ◼   ► are a subscription type thing and you pay like an annual or monthly subscription.

00:55:57 ◼   ► And if someone paid for a subscription to this app for a year and then two days later

00:56:03 ◼   ► the app was killed by an API change, they're probably going to ask for a refund.

00:56:07 ◼   ► And so now the developers have to give back the money that they thought they had because

00:56:11 ◼   ► their app was killed by Twitter.

00:56:12 ◼   ► And that, you know, again, too, if it's like an individual developer or a small group of

00:56:16 ◼   ► developers that can be a big financial hit.

00:56:18 ◼   ► Hey, I thought I had all this money, but guess what?

00:56:20 ◼   ► You got to give back, you know, this much of the revenue that you already thought you

00:56:23 ◼   ► got because Twitter killed your app and all the users who are using it now can't, who

00:56:27 ◼   ► paid for a year of your service can't get it.

00:56:29 ◼   ► So they want their money back or they want half their money back or something.

00:56:32 ◼   ► It just sucks all around.

00:56:34 ◼   ► So it's not, you know, this is not a victimless crime.

00:56:35 ◼   ► It's like, oh, boo hoo, you can't use a Twitter client you like.

00:56:38 ◼   ► The developers have their business killed and the developers may owe money, have to

00:56:43 ◼   ► return money they thought they had as income.

00:56:45 ◼   ► And it's not like these developers are rolling around with, you know, Bugatti's or whatever.

00:56:51 ◼   ► They're getting by selling a third party Twitter app, which is not, you know, the big bucks.

00:56:55 ◼   ► It's not, you know, Candy Crush or whatever.

00:56:57 ◼   ► So yeah, that's the thing.

00:56:58 ◼   ► It's like, it's like this is one of the reasons why the way they did it was so crappy because

00:57:02 ◼   ► like in a regular operating environment with a business run by adults and decent people,

00:57:08 ◼   ► you would give people warning and, you know, something as major as we're going to kill

00:57:12 ◼   ► the entire basis for which your app is allowed to exist.

00:57:16 ◼   ► You might give them a warning of like a year.

00:57:17 ◼   ► You might say like, all right, on this date next year, the API is turning off for apps

00:57:21 ◼   ► like yours.

00:57:22 ◼   ► Sorry, that's it.

00:57:23 ◼   ► Because what they were doing, despite the horrible passive aggressive message on the

00:57:27 ◼   ► Twitter dev account, what these apps were doing was totally allowed.

00:57:31 ◼   ► It was within the rules.

00:57:32 ◼   ► It was permitted.

00:57:33 ◼   ► It was explicitly permitted by Twitter.

00:57:35 ◼   ► They were totally allowed to do what they were doing and monetize it and everything.

00:57:38 ◼   ► So they were they were doing nothing wrong or unexpected to the Twitter company.

00:57:42 ◼   ► And they had this really complicated system from back from the last time Twitter screwed

00:57:45 ◼   ► with the API where they're only allowed to have a maximum number of X customers after

00:57:49 ◼   ► that they can't have any more.

00:57:50 ◼   ► It was like this very draconian system that they had to work within with where they would

00:57:53 ◼   ► dole out a fixed number of tokens that you could sell.

00:57:56 ◼   ► So it's not even like it was a free for all like it was back in the old days.

00:57:59 ◼   ► That's why app.net launched.

00:58:01 ◼   ► It was in response to that.

00:58:02 ◼   ► Yeah.

00:58:03 ◼   ► Yes.

00:58:04 ◼   ► The last time Twitter tried to screw over third party developers, it did it in a less

00:58:09 ◼   ► crappy way than this.

00:58:10 ◼   ► And yeah, and you remember like the four quadrant thing?

00:58:12 ◼   ► It was a whole thing.

00:58:13 ◼   ► And it was a big scandal back then.

00:58:14 ◼   ► But but they at least even then, even when they were being crappy back then, you know,

00:58:18 ◼   ► they did it in a much more reasonable way.

00:58:21 ◼   ► They gave dates they gave, they communicated their crappiness.

00:58:24 ◼   ► Yeah, exactly.

00:58:25 ◼   ► You didn't have to guess.

00:58:26 ◼   ► They didn't just break one day.

00:58:27 ◼   ► And then they just said, we're not saying anything.

00:58:28 ◼   ► Nope, we don't have a communications department.

00:58:30 ◼   ► Don't bother asking us any questions.

00:58:32 ◼   ► Anyway, I'm glad we have happier news to talk about this week because I have the Twitter

00:58:38 ◼   ► thing.

00:58:39 ◼   ► But you know, again, like, I can't I can't urge this enough.

00:58:42 ◼   ► Switch to Mastodon.

00:58:43 ◼   ► Like if you're on Twitter, get off of it.

00:58:45 ◼   ► You know, if I know there are certain communities and certain people who haven't moved off of

00:58:49 ◼   ► it yet.

00:58:51 ◼   ► You all first of all, I'll ask our audience two things on this topic.

00:58:55 ◼   ► Number one, please move off of Twitter.

00:58:57 ◼   ► Like this is not a company you want to support.

00:59:00 ◼   ► And especially Oh God, this person running it.

00:59:03 ◼   ► Okay.

00:59:04 ◼   ► And number two, I would ask you please, if you have a subscription to tweetbot or Twitterific

00:59:09 ◼   ► or any other any of the other Twitter apps that were just killed, please don't ask Apple

00:59:14 ◼   ► for a refund on it.

00:59:16 ◼   ► You know, look, these are these are small developers like that.

00:59:19 ◼   ► No one could have foreseen this really.

00:59:22 ◼   ► So I mean, yeah, obviously cancel your subscription.

00:59:25 ◼   ► But like, don't ask for a refund for the for the unused portion that now can't work because

00:59:30 ◼   ► you're going to really, you know, that's going to really possibly hurt and, you know, consider

00:59:36 ◼   ► it consider it your risk that was taken also.

00:59:38 ◼   ► And you know, hopefully we'll move on to better pastures.

00:59:41 ◼   ► All right, so we have one more piece of slightly unhappy follow up and then I'll end on a happy

00:59:48 ◼   ► piece of follow up.

00:59:50 ◼   ► The unhappy ish follow up is actually follow out to this week's upgrade actually specifically

00:59:55 ◼   ► upgrade plus episode 442 zombie arms and toaster fridge in the very, very end in the members

01:00:01 ◼   ► only portion.

01:00:02 ◼   ► Jason and Mike went on a tear about filing a feedback and Oh, baby, I was here for it.

01:00:09 ◼   ► Oh, it was good.

01:00:11 ◼   ► It was great.

01:00:12 ◼   ► And so I'm not I'm not gonna get myself riled up about this.

01:00:15 ◼   ► I'm just gonna move right along.

01:00:16 ◼   ► But if you want to hear the two of them just go off on how how awful fire filing feedback

01:00:22 ◼   ► is, how obnoxious it is to to hear that from Apple, and how it's kind of victim blaming.

01:00:28 ◼   ► Oh, it was so good.

01:00:29 ◼   ► It was so good.

01:00:31 ◼   ► So incredibly good.

01:00:32 ◼   ► Upgrade Plus, which is the members only stuff 442 zombie arms and toaster fridge, please.

01:00:37 ◼   ► And thank you.

01:00:38 ◼   ► And thank you, Mike and Jason for your service.

01:00:41 ◼   ► I mean that non sarcastically.

01:00:43 ◼   ► The only thing that bothers me is that Apple is never going to hear this because I don't

01:00:47 ◼   ► know if you know any Apple people are are members of upgrade.

01:00:50 ◼   ► I hope they are.

01:00:51 ◼   ► They should be.

01:00:52 ◼   ► They should be because it's such a great program.

01:00:53 ◼   ► But anyways, check it out.

01:00:55 ◼   ► And then finally, the happy news from the listener cool places file.

01:00:59 ◼   ► We got this which I don't know if it was intended to be anonymous or not, but I will just assume

01:01:03 ◼   ► it was intended to be anonymous.

01:01:04 ◼   ► We got the following letter.

01:01:06 ◼   ► I deployed last year aboard America's fastest deepest diving submarine and before leaving

01:01:10 ◼   ► the pier downloaded some older episodes to listen to offline underwater.

01:01:14 ◼   ► Now that I'm back, I'm happy to say that ATP has now been played some unspecified deep

01:01:18 ◼   ► depth somewhere in the Pacific Ocean.

01:01:21 ◼   ► Most of my listening time was spent as I exercised between the main steam piping just behind

01:01:25 ◼   ► the reactor compartment, which is heavily shielded from radiation, so no health worries there.

01:01:29 ◼   ► When I returned to shore, it was good to catch up on the episodes I missed since there's

01:01:32 ◼   ► zero connectivity with the outside world on a deployment.

01:01:36 ◼   ► I just think this is so freaking cool and very timely since we're talking about hunt

01:01:38 ◼   ► for October.

01:01:39 ◼   ► Again, atp.fm/join.

01:01:41 ◼   ► So if you if you listen to the show in a weird, odd, unusual or cool place, I feel like I'm

01:01:46 ◼   ► channeling a little bit of hello internet here, but I don't care.

01:01:49 ◼   ► Let us know.

01:01:50 ◼   ► I'm going to share it and I appreciate this anonymous listener for writing it.

01:01:53 ◼   ► Yeah, if hello internet wants to stop us, they can come back on the air.

01:01:57 ◼   ► We are sponsored this week by the LunchPaleVC podcast.

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01:03:07 ◼   ► Apple has announced the new M2 Pro and M2 Macs, MacBook Pro, and then even before that

01:03:14 ◼   ► the new M2 Pro and M2 Mac Mini.

01:03:22 ◼   ► So all sorts of new treats for everyone.

01:03:24 ◼   ► We can start with the Mac Mini.

01:03:27 ◼   ► It is a little bit bigger than the old one, and it's silver only, no space gray.

01:03:32 ◼   ► When you say a little bit, you mean a little bit.

01:03:34 ◼   ► I didn't look up these numbers, I'm just trusting Dan Moore and his six colors, but 7.75 inches

01:03:40 ◼   ► instead of 7.7?

01:03:43 ◼   ► So weird.

01:03:44 ◼   ► 1.41 inches high instead of 1.4?

01:03:47 ◼   ► I thought these Mac Minis had been the same size for years now.

01:03:50 ◼   ► It's like, "Oh, the Intel one, then they switched to the M1 and it was the same case, and blah,

01:03:54 ◼   ► blah, blah."

01:03:55 ◼   ► And then they make a new case and it's slightly differently sized.

01:03:59 ◼   ► Wow.

01:04:00 ◼   ► I mean, unless you're making some really tightly fitting Mac Mini jeans, I don't think you're

01:04:05 ◼   ► going to notice this difference.

01:04:06 ◼   ► Maybe the rack mount people, but the reason it's weird is because it's not like it was

01:04:11 ◼   ► cramped in there.

01:04:12 ◼   ► Like the M1 Mac Mini was hilariously spacious.

01:04:14 ◼   ► Like you'd open it up and it was just this little tiny motherboard and this giant cooler

01:04:18 ◼   ► and power supply, and the M2 one is a little bit less like that, but it's not like it was

01:04:23 ◼   ► tight in there.

01:04:25 ◼   ► I would love to know what in the world happened to this computer that needed to get 0.01 inches

01:04:31 ◼   ► bigger on its side.

01:04:33 ◼   ► Like what?

01:04:34 ◼   ► I can't wait to see the teardown.

01:04:36 ◼   ► Like did they buy a third party thing that needed that extra 0.01 inch?

01:04:42 ◼   ► So weird.

01:04:43 ◼   ► Anyway, it looks the same on the outside.

01:04:44 ◼   ► I mean, and these products are pretty straightforward, but of all the things, this is the one that

01:04:49 ◼   ► baffles me the most.

01:04:50 ◼   ► The Mac Mini changing size in a tiny, tiny way.

01:04:54 ◼   ► Well, spoiler alert, but the same thing happened to the HomePod for what it's worth.

01:04:58 ◼   ► Yeah, well, the HomePod's a totally new design and the laptops, when they get a little bit

01:05:02 ◼   ► thicker, like, you know, I understand that.

01:05:03 ◼   ► Like things are so tight in a laptop, like every little fraction of a millimeter counts

01:05:07 ◼   ► or whatever, but the Mac Mini, it's like the Mac Pro getting 0.01 inches bigger or something

01:05:12 ◼   ► like in the current case.

01:05:13 ◼   ► Like what did you not have room for in there?

01:05:16 ◼   ► It's just a little, anyway.

01:05:18 ◼   ► All right, regardless.

01:05:20 ◼   ► So silver only, no space gray.

01:05:22 ◼   ► There is an optional 10 gig ethernet for a hundred bucks.

01:05:24 ◼   ► Yeah, that's not new.

01:05:25 ◼   ► I thought it was new, but apparently that was already on.

01:05:26 ◼   ► I was going to say that.

01:05:27 ◼   ► That's not the new, but it is the same.

01:05:29 ◼   ► The M2 starts at 600 bones, 8 gigs RAM, 256 gig SSD.

01:05:33 ◼   ► And that's a hundred dollars less than before, right?

01:05:35 ◼   ► For the old M1 one?

01:05:36 ◼   ► I think that's right.

01:05:37 ◼   ► I actually have an M1 one, but I don't remember what I paid and I think I got it refurbed anyway.

01:05:42 ◼   ► Two Thunderbolt 4 ports, the M2 Pro in the Mac Mini, which is exciting, $1,300.

01:05:47 ◼   ► You get a 10 core CPU, 16 core GPU, 16 gigs RAM, 512 gig SSD.

01:05:53 ◼   ► You can upgrade from 10 to 12 core CPU for 300 bucks.

01:05:57 ◼   ► You get anywhere between six and eight performance cores, four efficiency cores, anywhere between

01:06:01 ◼   ► 16, 19 GPU cores, the 16 core neural engine, 200 gigs a second memory bandwidth versus

01:06:08 ◼   ► 100 gigs a second in the regular M2.

01:06:10 ◼   ► You get 16 or 32 gigs RAM.

01:06:14 ◼   ► And then the M1 Pro by comparison was same amount of performance cores and efficiency

01:06:20 ◼   ► cores, same cores on the neural engine, but 14 to 16 GPU cores instead of 16 to 19 same

01:06:27 ◼   ► RAM profile.

01:06:28 ◼   ► And again, in this case, you get four Thunderbolt 4 ports, which is exciting and perhaps more

01:06:34 ◼   ► interesting than anything else, no more Intel Mac Mini, which is very, very exciting as

01:06:40 ◼   ► well.

01:06:41 ◼   ► - Yeah, this was great.

01:06:42 ◼   ► This is like the one, when people would look at the Apple Silicon transition, everyone

01:06:48 ◼   ► knows we haven't done the Mac Pro yet, but most people quickly forgot that there was

01:06:52 ◼   ► actually still an Intel Mac Mini also in the lineup because the Mac Mini, it covered, from

01:06:59 ◼   ► the 2018 update, it went from being an only low-end product prior to that to in 2018 becoming

01:07:06 ◼   ► a product that had some low-end options, but also went pretty, pretty solid into the mid-range

01:07:14 ◼   ► performance territory and had some really great higher-end chip options and things like

01:07:19 ◼   ► that.

01:07:20 ◼   ► And that was not replaced when the M1 Mac Mini came out.

01:07:22 ◼   ► They only had the lower-end configuration with the M1.

01:07:27 ◼   ► And it took until now, now that we have in the M2 generation, now that we have the M2

01:07:31 ◼   ► Pro variant, that was the first time they actually really replaced what was still the

01:07:38 ◼   ► only Intel one in the lineup, which was kind of the higher-end CPU options and more ports

01:07:42 ◼   ► and more Thunderbolt bandwidth and stuff like that.

01:07:45 ◼   ► So now we have that role filled, leaving only the Mac Pro unfilled, but this is great.

01:07:53 ◼   ► I mean, when they first made the Mac Mini, that kind of mid-range performance level in

01:07:58 ◼   ► 2018, that was a pretty big move.

01:08:01 ◼   ► And that really gave that product a lot of life and really was able to be a lot of people's

01:08:08 ◼   ► desktops and servers and accessory rolls, things like that.

01:08:12 ◼   ► It was a great product.

01:08:13 ◼   ► And so to have that finally be really fulfilled in the Apple Silicon era is really nice.

01:08:20 ◼   ► So I'm really happy to see this.

01:08:21 ◼   ► And in fact, if you look at what would it take, suppose you wanted to have a bunch of

01:08:26 ◼   ► Apple Silicon compute power in a data center or a server situation or whatever.

01:08:32 ◼   ► You look at the Mac Studio, you look at the other Mac Minis, this is actually a pretty

01:08:36 ◼   ► great deal for the amount of processing and GPU power that you're getting per dollar in

01:08:45 ◼   ► that kind of environment.

01:08:46 ◼   ► So it looks great.

01:08:48 ◼   ► The bigger version with the Pro has four USB-C Thunderbolt 4 ports instead of two.

01:08:54 ◼   ► So you have more bandwidth, more ports, higher RAM ceiling, obviously more processor power.

01:09:02 ◼   ► Throttles are gonna be a question mark until we actually get these devices.

01:09:07 ◼   ► I do worry maybe it's gonna be loud with the fan or maybe it will throttle.

01:09:11 ◼   ► I don't know.

01:09:12 ◼   ► It probably won't throttle, but it might be loud under heavy load like the Mac Studio.

01:09:17 ◼   ► I don't know, but we'll find out.

01:09:19 ◼   ► I have high hopes and I'm really happy to see the Mac Mini and where it's going and

01:09:27 ◼   ► what they've been able to do with Apple Silicon.

01:09:28 ◼   ► I'm very, very happy with this.

01:09:30 ◼   ► To be clear, the M2 Pro is not on a new process size.

01:09:34 ◼   ► It's the same as the M2 as far as we can tell.

01:09:36 ◼   ► It's 5nm.

01:09:37 ◼   ► I know they have variants of the 5nm processor or whatever, but it's not 3nm is what I'm

01:09:41 ◼   ► getting at.

01:09:42 ◼   ► So the power consumption would be what you would expect from an M2 Pro, which has more

01:09:47 ◼   ► of the M2 stuff in it.

01:09:48 ◼   ► More cores, more GPU cores, so on and so forth.

01:09:51 ◼   ► I don't think the thermal conditions inside a Mac Mini are too rough unless they totally

01:09:55 ◼   ► screwed up the cooler like they did on the Mac Studio.

01:09:58 ◼   ► It should be fine probably.

01:10:00 ◼   ► These are good machines.

01:10:01 ◼   ► They're straightforward.

01:10:02 ◼   ► I like the fact that there's an M2 Pro.

01:10:04 ◼   ► I guess they didn't put an M2 Max in there.

01:10:06 ◼   ► Maybe because of cooling and maybe because you'd start going into the Mac Studio territory

01:10:11 ◼   ► and you just want to separate the lines a little bit, which is fine.

01:10:13 ◼   ► The price drop on the low end M2 one is nice, but the problem with these Mac Minis is, as

01:10:19 ◼   ► always, I feel like this...

01:10:21 ◼   ► I don't know why I feel like this more on the Mac Mini than other things.

01:10:23 ◼   ► Maybe because they don't come with a screen or a keyboard or anything else.

01:10:26 ◼   ► It's just the computer.

01:10:27 ◼   ► But it always highlights to me just how disconnected from cost of materials the upgrades on these

01:10:36 ◼   ► are.

01:10:37 ◼   ► So if you don't want a base config, everything you can add to this costs money.

01:10:42 ◼   ► It's just all pure profit.

01:10:44 ◼   ► If you want to go from 8GB of memory to 24GB, it's an extra $400.

01:10:50 ◼   ► What planet?

01:10:51 ◼   ► Oh, it's special memories on the SoC.

01:10:54 ◼   ► If you want to add 256GB of storage, it comes with 256GB, but if you want to go to 512GB,

01:11:01 ◼   ► the additional 256GB of SSD storage is $200.

01:11:04 ◼   ► No, that's not how these things...

01:11:07 ◼   ► And it's profit.

01:11:08 ◼   ► It's what the market will bear.

01:11:09 ◼   ► I understand that.

01:11:10 ◼   ► But speccing one of these up to the way you actually want it, especially when it comes

01:11:13 ◼   ► to storage, like, "Oh, you want a 2TB drive?"

01:11:16 ◼   ► Add $800 to the price.

01:11:18 ◼   ► A 2TB SSD does not cost $800.

01:11:24 ◼   ► It's actually a 1.75TB SSD because the 256 comes for free.

01:11:28 ◼   ► This is $800 above...

01:11:30 ◼   ► The pricing is brutal.

01:11:31 ◼   ► And we just suck it up because it's like, "Hey, it's a cool computer.

01:11:34 ◼   ► It's a Mac Mini.

01:11:35 ◼   ► That's how much they cost," or whatever.

01:11:36 ◼   ► I do feel like on the Mac Mini, because there is nothing else in the equation and it's just

01:11:41 ◼   ► a box that you're not going to touch or manipulate, it's just like an elemental slab, a container

01:11:46 ◼   ► for Apple's 75% margins on its upgrades.

01:11:49 ◼   ► It's just brutal.

01:11:52 ◼   ► And that's not the fault of this generation or this chip.

01:11:55 ◼   ► It's just the way things are on the Mac, and it kind of burns me up a little bit.

01:11:58 ◼   ► - How do you really feel?

01:11:59 ◼   ► No, I'm excited about this.

01:12:00 ◼   ► I have an M1 Mac Mini that's running Plex and Channels and in some of my Docker containers.

01:12:09 ◼   ► I am excited that this exists.

01:12:11 ◼   ► I have been extremely satisfied with my M1 Mac Mini, which is a 2020 model that I bought

01:12:16 ◼   ► mid to late last year.

01:12:18 ◼   ► I am not presently looking to upgrade.

01:12:20 ◼   ► Jon, do you have any M1 or any Mac Minis of any sort actually in the house?

01:12:25 ◼   ► - I don't have any.

01:12:26 ◼   ► I've never had a reason to use a Mac Mini.

01:12:28 ◼   ► I think they're cool machines, and especially with the ARM ones being so fast and so quiet

01:12:33 ◼   ► and cool.

01:12:34 ◼   ► It's a great machine if I ever had a use of one.

01:12:36 ◼   ► I suppose maybe if I didn't have a Synology, but I had rolled my own Synology type thing,

01:12:41 ◼   ► I would probably have a Mac Mini hooked up to a bunch of different things, but I do have

01:12:43 ◼   ► a Synology, so no Mac Minis in my life.

01:12:46 ◼   ► Or maybe there was no Apple TV.

01:12:48 ◼   ► I'd have one hooked up to my TV at this point, but you know.

01:12:51 ◼   ► - And then Marco, I don't recall.

01:12:52 ◼   ► Do you have one still?

01:12:54 ◼   ► I know you have and then have and then have and then have and different memory serves.

01:12:56 ◼   ► What is your current situation?

01:12:58 ◼   ► - I still technically own the one that was being the iSCSI host to my Synology for many,

01:13:04 ◼   ► many years.

01:13:05 ◼   ► I have since retired that role, but it's still just sitting in my TV cabinet in Westchester.

01:13:11 ◼   ► It's like the old, I think it's like a 2015 or 2016 model.

01:13:16 ◼   ► It's quite old by today's standards and runs a very ancient version of Mac OS.

01:13:23 ◼   ► And then I did briefly use the M1 Mac Mini as my desktop for a while during that transition.

01:13:31 ◼   ► And it was great.

01:13:32 ◼   ► And then it lived in the water closet and then I traded it into Apple.

01:13:36 ◼   ► - Nice, okay.

01:13:37 ◼   ► - Yeah, that's the other role this fulfills.

01:13:38 ◼   ► Now that there is an M2 Pro one of these, but there's still no big, fast iMac, and in

01:13:42 ◼   ► fact the iMac is still on the M1, let alone any variant of the M2, you get an M2 Pro one

01:13:47 ◼   ► of these and you hook it up to an Apple Studio display and you have a, what do you call it?

01:13:52 ◼   ► Deconstructed iMac essentially for probably a little bit more money because like I said,

01:13:57 ◼   ► the Mac Mini is pretty expensive once you spec it up and that monitor is not cheap,

01:14:00 ◼   ► but you get a full, well, not a full Mac system.

01:14:02 ◼   ► You still have to buy a mouse and a keyboard, I suppose.

01:14:04 ◼   ► But anyway, that's a pretty good system because an M2 Pro Mac Mini is gonna be no slouch.

01:14:08 ◼   ► The Apple Studio display is nice if you ignore the camera and it's all Apple stuff and so

01:14:13 ◼   ► I feel like they're filling, this is the hole in the market that we were talking about back

01:14:17 ◼   ► when they didn't have the big iMac.

01:14:19 ◼   ► Now they have something there.

01:14:20 ◼   ► The M2 Pro Mini fills that pretty well until they can get off their butt and deal with

01:14:24 ◼   ► the iMac, which it seems like they're, is the iMac gonna skip a generation and the next

01:14:28 ◼   ► iMac we're gonna see has an M3 in it?

01:14:30 ◼   ► Maybe, but like, and those iMacs are great.

01:14:33 ◼   ► I see them in the Apple Store all the time and the M1 is no slouch, like it's not a bad

01:14:36 ◼   ► computer by any stretch, but as the rest of the line sort of leaves it behind, it'd be

01:14:41 ◼   ► nice if they looked back at that iMac line and came out.

01:14:43 ◼   ► Because when that line came out, it was like, wow, these are great machines.

01:14:46 ◼   ► Like for the price and the features and the size, like it's, you know, no complaints about

01:14:51 ◼   ► them, but as they age and of course stay the same price because that's the Apple way, they're

01:14:56 ◼   ► starting to get left behind now.

01:14:58 ◼   ► - Yeah, well and frankly, I mean, I think the Studio display I think is too expensive

01:15:04 ◼   ► to have Studio display and Mac Mini be an iMac replacement for a lot of people.

01:15:09 ◼   ► It's just, it's not--

01:15:10 ◼   ► - No, it's not gonna replace the 24 inch for sure, but like the 27 inch, like a 5K iMac,

01:15:14 ◼   ► a specked out 5K, let's do the math.

01:15:16 ◼   ► So like if you get a decent M2 Pro Mac Mini with like a one terabyte SSD and like 32 gigs

01:15:22 ◼   ► of RAM, that's $2,200 and $1,600, that's about the territory.

01:15:27 ◼   ► It's a little bit more maybe than like a good 5K iMac with similar specs and plus you have

01:15:32 ◼   ► two separate boxes, right?

01:15:33 ◼   ► So it's not horrendous, but it's, the people who are buying a 24 inch iMac are not in the

01:15:38 ◼   ► market for a $3,700 computer or whatever.

01:15:42 ◼   ► - Yeah.

01:15:43 ◼   ► Anyway, Mac Mini, thumbs up.

01:15:47 ◼   ► - So Marco, also not ordering anything at this time.

01:15:50 ◼   ► Well, I'm sorry, with regard to the Mac Mini, I know you're ordering some stuff, but with

01:15:54 ◼   ► regard to the Mac Mini, no orders at this time.

01:15:56 ◼   ► - I did not order a Mac Mini.

01:15:57 ◼   ► - Okay, all right, now let's talk laptops.

01:16:01 ◼   ► The time has finally come, I had ordered the laptop that I'm using to speak to you fine

01:16:06 ◼   ► gentlemen right now.

01:16:07 ◼   ► I'd order this laptop whenever it was announced in like October, November of 2021, is that

01:16:13 ◼   ► right?

01:16:14 ◼   ► Yes, 2021.

01:16:15 ◼   ► And it has been probably the best Mac I've ever used ever since.

01:16:20 ◼   ► I had been living well over a year in bliss with nothing better on, that had come out

01:16:26 ◼   ► and made this thing look like a piece of garbage.

01:16:29 ◼   ► Until today, it is now a piece of garbage.

01:16:30 ◼   ► No, not really.

01:16:32 ◼   ► But this is the replacement for my M1 Max 14-inch MacBook Pro.

01:16:39 ◼   ► We have the 14-16-inch M1, or excuse me, M2 Pro and M2 Max MacBook Pros.

01:16:46 ◼   ► The 14-inch MacBook Pro is a touch thinner at 0.06 inches instead of 0.061 inches.

01:16:55 ◼   ► And the 14-inch M2 Max adds 0.1 pounds.

01:16:59 ◼   ► Interestingly, and I really want to find an excuse to spend the money on these even though

01:17:04 ◼   ► it's completely wasteful because I don't need it.

01:17:06 ◼   ► But interestingly, they have color matched MagSafe charging cables now, which is really

01:17:11 ◼   ► awesome.

01:17:12 ◼   ► And that is not something that I should be bothered by.

01:17:15 ◼   ► And I wouldn't say I'm bothered by the fact that I don't have a color matched MagSafe

01:17:18 ◼   ► cable, but I would have preferred a color matched one.

01:17:21 ◼   ► Are they metal matched as well?

01:17:23 ◼   ► By color matched, I mean like the braided cable itself is colored to match your thing.

01:17:26 ◼   ► But the other complaint was that the metal part of the MagSafe connector was always silver

01:17:30 ◼   ► even if you got a space-free one.

01:17:32 ◼   ► Ah, that's true.

01:17:33 ◼   ► Yeah, I believe they fixed that after the Airs launched.

01:17:35 ◼   ► Because when the new Airs launched, they finally made color matched MagSafe cables for the

01:17:41 ◼   ► different metal colors.

01:17:42 ◼   ► And then they swapped those for the Pros as well.

01:17:44 ◼   ► I believe, and I don't know if they even did it for the old Pros, but because these

01:17:49 ◼   ► Pros came out after those cables began to exist, that's why the new Pros have it.

01:17:54 ◼   ► Yeah.

01:17:55 ◼   ► Alright.

01:17:56 ◼   ► So in any case, the M2 Max, eight performance cores, four efficiency cores.

01:18:02 ◼   ► So this is the weird thing about this.

01:18:04 ◼   ► The M1 Max had eight performance cores and two efficiency cores.

01:18:09 ◼   ► And the M2 Max has more stuff than the, obviously the cores are different, it's got the M2

01:18:13 ◼   ► cores or whatever, right?

01:18:15 ◼   ► But it has two more efficiency cores.

01:18:19 ◼   ► Instead of adding power cores, like this is the max chip, it's like for performance

01:18:23 ◼   ► or whatever, they had more transistors to spend.

01:18:26 ◼   ► And the way they decided to spend them was keep the number of performance cores the same,

01:18:30 ◼   ► but add two more efficiency cores.

01:18:32 ◼   ► No, honestly, this, again, Jon, you don't know.

01:18:36 ◼   ► I know, I'm sitting right here in the Mac studio right there, I know all about efficiency

01:18:40 ◼   ► cores.

01:18:41 ◼   ► No, no, but you don't know for two reasons.

01:18:43 ◼   ► Number one, you're still using a Mac Pro.

01:18:44 ◼   ► Number two, you don't run iStat menus.

01:18:47 ◼   ► So you don't know that on Apple Silicon Macs, a lot of tasks are delegated to those efficiency

01:18:55 ◼   ► cores.

01:18:56 ◼   ► I understand what the efficiency cores do, but I'm saying it's on the M2 Max when you've

01:19:00 ◼   ► got transistors to spend.

01:19:03 ◼   ► Was it hurting for efficiency cores?

01:19:05 ◼   ► Did it need more of them?

01:19:06 ◼   ► Yes.

01:19:07 ◼   ► I mean, you could say it's a battery saving thing because like, "Oh, I don't want anything

01:19:09 ◼   ► to be running on the power cores unless I'm doing serious work, so I need more efficiency

01:19:13 ◼   ► cores."

01:19:14 ◼   ► Makes some vague sense, but the reason I'm saying this is because that M2 Max, I look

01:19:18 ◼   ► at it and I don't see just the chip that's going to be in this laptop, but I also see

01:19:22 ◼   ► the chip that's going to eventually be shoved head to head with another M2 Max to make the

01:19:27 ◼   ► M2 Ultra in the studio and whatever the hell they're going to do in the Mac Pro.

01:19:31 ◼   ► And there I think you're going to be oversubscribed on efficiency cores as you start tacking these

01:19:35 ◼   ► things together.

01:19:36 ◼   ► So maybe for a laptop makes sense, but it's an interesting choice.

01:19:40 ◼   ► One of the theories I'd heard about this that makes some sense is I think all the M chips

01:19:47 ◼   ► entirely with the exception of the, maybe all the M2 ones, I think they're all going

01:19:51 ◼   ► to have four efficiency cores per unit, right?

01:19:55 ◼   ► And maybe that makes it easier in terms of scheduling to just say, "Oh, we're always

01:19:58 ◼   ► going to have four efficiency cores in the whole M2 things.

01:20:01 ◼   ► For each building block there's four efficiency cores."

01:20:03 ◼   ► Shouldn't make that much difference in the schedule or we'll work it out as it is, but

01:20:08 ◼   ► it's an interesting choice and it really, I feel like, shows how Apple is thinking about

01:20:13 ◼   ► it silicon.

01:20:14 ◼   ► They're not thinking about the Mac Studio.

01:20:15 ◼   ► They're certainly not thinking about the Mac Pro because that's just too many damn efficiency

01:20:19 ◼   ► cores.

01:20:20 ◼   ► If you ever did make that quad thing that we just said in a past show that basically

01:20:23 ◼   ► the rumor was they canceled it, you know how many freaking efficiency cores there would

01:20:27 ◼   ► just be too many?

01:20:28 ◼   ► You'd have to just be running background jobs to occupy them, right?

01:20:30 ◼   ► Because when you do any serious work it's going to wander all of them on the power cores

01:20:34 ◼   ► and there's going to be like 30 of those or whatever, however many there are going to

01:20:38 ◼   ► be, but you'd have all these efficiency cores just milling around, looking at each other,

01:20:41 ◼   ► twiddling their thumbs going, "You got anything to do?"

01:20:43 ◼   ► "No, I'm just doing nothing.

01:20:46 ◼   ► Maybe a cron job will run sometime, I don't know."

01:20:48 ◼   ► Like me and 15 of my friends here.

01:20:50 ◼   ► And it's because, like we talked before, it's a cookie cutter thing.

01:20:54 ◼   ► You get each building block has X performance cores and Y efficiency cores.

01:20:58 ◼   ► It's just a lot of damn efficiency cores.

01:21:00 ◼   ► And to be clear, the efficiency cores are good.

01:21:02 ◼   ► They're not crappy.

01:21:03 ◼   ► They're really amazing.

01:21:04 ◼   ► They're also really very efficient, but at a certain point you just get too many of them.

01:21:08 ◼   ► So anyway, I thought that was an interesting choice with the M.2 Macs.

01:21:12 ◼   ► We'll have to wait until people do the benchmarking and everything because, like they showed in

01:21:16 ◼   ► the little diagram, the M.2 Macs is bigger than the M.1 Macs, but not horrendously bigger.

01:21:22 ◼   ► It's the same process.

01:21:23 ◼   ► It's got a little bit more stuff in it.

01:21:25 ◼   ► The M.2 performance cores are a little bit bigger than the M.1 performance cores.

01:21:29 ◼   ► There's a little bit more stuff.

01:21:31 ◼   ► I think they cut back on the, I didn't write this down in the notes, but I think for the

01:21:35 ◼   ► video processing, it doesn't have, like the M.1 Macs had like double the number of video

01:21:40 ◼   ► encode/decode things, and the M.2 Macs doesn't have double.

01:21:43 ◼   ► It just has one of each, but I think the one of each that it has are better.

01:21:48 ◼   ► I'm sure this will all shake out in the benchmarks.

01:21:49 ◼   ► It's just interesting to see how they shuffle the blocks on the floor plan to make slightly

01:21:55 ◼   ► different choices than the M.1 Macs.

01:21:57 ◼   ► Presumably these choices were made informed by the M.1 Macs and the experience with that,

01:22:03 ◼   ► but it's a really nice apples to apples comparison because it's the same process.

01:22:06 ◼   ► So the only thing that they had in mind is, let's take another bite of that apple.

01:22:11 ◼   ► We have a similar footprint and a similar power envelope to try to make a better chip

01:22:15 ◼   ► than the M.1 Macs.

01:22:17 ◼   ► And what they chose to do was add efficiency cores, make all their cores a little bit better.

01:22:22 ◼   ► I think this does not, remember the rumor, I don't know if we talked about it in the

01:22:25 ◼   ► show of like there was supposed to be a new GPU architecture for the A16 that got canned

01:22:30 ◼   ► and it was like a rare miss for the apple silicon team.

01:22:32 ◼   ► Like it was going to have this all new GPU cores.

01:22:33 ◼   ► They were really amazing and they just couldn't do it because it was taking too much power.

01:22:37 ◼   ► So the A16 just got the regular GPU cores.

01:22:40 ◼   ► As far as I know, these M.2 Macs and pro also don't have any radical new GPU cores.

01:22:46 ◼   ► So it's really straightforward apples to apples.

01:22:49 ◼   ► Let's just massage the very similar guts to the M.1 Macs to try to make a better chip.

01:22:57 ◼   ► Apple's claims were all in the ballpark of like 20% faster at this, you know, 30% faster

01:23:01 ◼   ► is that.

01:23:03 ◼   ► But we'll wait until people start getting these and start doing the hardcore benchmarks

01:23:06 ◼   ► to see like in real world applications, depending on what you're doing, how much better is

01:23:09 ◼   ► the M.2 Macs than the M.1 Macs and how does it do on battery life?

01:23:14 ◼   ► And that's, did we mention that already?

01:23:16 ◼   ► I forget where the apple made the claim, but for one of these machines, apple made the

01:23:18 ◼   ► claim that it was like the longest battery life of any Mac that ever made.

01:23:22 ◼   ► You remember which one it was?

01:23:23 ◼   ► Yeah, for the, that was for the 16 inch.

01:23:25 ◼   ► And it's, it's basically, it went from like 21 hours of whatever test they're basing this

01:23:29 ◼   ► on to 22.

01:23:30 ◼   ► So it's, it's a little bit longer than the one I have that, you know, the M.1 Macs or

01:23:34 ◼   ► pro or whatever.

01:23:35 ◼   ► The M.1 16 inch, it's a little bit longer than that.

01:23:38 ◼   ► And they didn't make that battery bigger cause they can't, it's as big, I believe it is right

01:23:41 ◼   ► up against the a hundred whatever watt hours.

01:23:43 ◼   ► Yeah, it's like 99.5 watt hours I believe.

01:23:46 ◼   ► And the chip is the same process, a five nanometer, again, maybe a tweaked version of it.

01:23:50 ◼   ► So any savings they're getting, any power savings that they're getting with this setup,

01:23:55 ◼   ► it's not by removing stuff cause this, the M.2 Macs has more stuff in it, it has more

01:24:00 ◼   ► transistors, it has more cores, it has mostly more stuff in it than the M.1 Macs.

01:24:04 ◼   ► It's all just about efficiency gains of like, maybe the cores are a little bit more efficient.

01:24:08 ◼   ► Maybe the video encode decode blocks are a little bit more power efficient at doing the

01:24:12 ◼   ► same job as the old ones are.

01:24:14 ◼   ► It's just, you know, so I'd, the claims like, wow, amazing battery life.

01:24:18 ◼   ► It probably is better than the old one, but don't expect it to be radically different.

01:24:21 ◼   ► The other one was already great.

01:24:23 ◼   ► This one is also great.

01:24:24 ◼   ► I feel like they just, you know, added 0.05% to the battery life and it's the new champion,

01:24:30 ◼   ► right?

01:24:31 ◼   ► So it's not anything, it's not like a, you know, a huge leap like the M.1 was over the

01:24:35 ◼   ► Intel things.

01:24:36 ◼   ► So just real quick, the M.2 Macs, like we were starting to say, four efficiency cores

01:24:41 ◼   ► instead of two, 30 to 38 GPU cores instead of the M.1 Macs is 24 to 32.

01:24:48 ◼   ► But I think perhaps most interestingly on these machines, other than, you know, the

01:24:51 ◼   ► standard spec bumps, is that it now has, Jon, help me out.

01:24:55 ◼   ► It's like HDMI 2.1.

01:24:56 ◼   ► Do I have that right?

01:24:57 ◼   ► Oh no, you skipped over one other important thing.

01:24:59 ◼   ► 96 gigs of RAM.

01:25:00 ◼   ► Oh, I'm sorry.

01:25:01 ◼   ► You're right.

01:25:02 ◼   ► I totally missed that.

01:25:03 ◼   ► On the 16 inch only, the 16 inch, but I'm sure they could have, you know, whatever they

01:25:06 ◼   ► they're segmenting the line.

01:25:07 ◼   ► The 16 inch, you can get 96 gigs of RAM.

01:25:09 ◼   ► Oh, not on the 14.

01:25:11 ◼   ► Not on the 14 as far as I could tell.

01:25:14 ◼   ► And which is kind of weird, whatever.

01:25:16 ◼   ► And I think this is all just done through increasing the density of the chips.

01:25:19 ◼   ► Like it's not like it has additional RAM chips.

01:25:21 ◼   ► If you look at the SOC with the little RAM chips around the side, like little ears, it's

01:25:24 ◼   ► just higher density RAM chips, right?

01:25:26 ◼   ► So the speeds are the same.

01:25:27 ◼   ► There's just more of it, right?

01:25:28 ◼   ► And again, looking at this and thinking about the 14 offers it by the way, 14 is 96 as well.

01:25:33 ◼   ► You need the M2 max, but that's also true on the 16.

01:25:37 ◼   ► All right, there you go.

01:25:39 ◼   ► Anyway, so 96 is a RAM.

01:25:40 ◼   ► Look at this and you think, well, this is what the M2, you know, what's the max RAM

01:25:44 ◼   ► on the M2 ultra going to be, right?

01:25:46 ◼   ► What is it going to be on the Mac Pro?

01:25:47 ◼   ► The 96 gig sort of telegraphs where things are going in that direction.

01:25:51 ◼   ► I was happy about that.

01:25:52 ◼   ► Like I didn't mention on the Mac mini as well on the M2.

01:25:55 ◼   ► Well, the M2 already had 24 gigs of RAM, so that's not big, but like bumping up the RAM

01:25:59 ◼   ► ceilings, even though these are otherwise quote unquote boring upgrades, oh, you have

01:26:03 ◼   ► slightly better cores and a little bit more of them, whatever.

01:26:07 ◼   ► But bumping up the RAM ceiling I think is important because it shows they're not going

01:26:10 ◼   ► to say, oh, you know, 16 gigs will be enough for anybody forever and the pro machines can

01:26:14 ◼   ► have 64.

01:26:15 ◼   ► No one wants more than that.

01:26:16 ◼   ► It's like, no, please more, give more.

01:26:17 ◼   ► And so the M2 max on their top end laptops, you can get 96 gigs.

01:26:21 ◼   ► I give that a huge thumbs up, despite the fact that I'm now afraid to go to the configurator

01:26:25 ◼   ► and see how much it's going to cost.

01:26:26 ◼   ► It's probably ridiculous.

01:26:27 ◼   ► - I mean, but it's just, again, like this is just one more continuation of, you know,

01:26:32 ◼   ► these the M1 Pro and max versions of these that came out, whatever it was 18 months ago,

01:26:37 ◼   ► whatever that was.

01:26:38 ◼   ► It's amazing that not, you know, not only is this computer amazing, but that the 14

01:26:44 ◼   ► inch and the 16 inch have the same options and the same performance.

01:26:48 ◼   ► Like the 16 inch and the only differences are bigger screen, bigger battery and bigger

01:26:54 ◼   ► cooling capacity of the 16 inch.

01:26:56 ◼   ► And so, but like, you know, but you can get, I mean, you look at the size of a 14 inch

01:27:01 ◼   ► MacBook Pro and that machine is available with the highest CPU, 96 gigs of RAM, eight

01:27:07 ◼   ► terabytes storage.

01:27:09 ◼   ► Like it's, that's incredible.

01:27:12 ◼   ► And you know, and I'll tell you, look, I've had both of these laptops now for whatever

01:27:18 ◼   ► it's been, when did these come out?

01:27:20 ◼   ► 18 months ago, whatever it was.

01:27:23 ◼   ► These are incredible machines.

01:27:27 ◼   ► I am so happy with them.

01:27:29 ◼   ► Oh, the 16 inch was slightly better acoustics, you know, larger speakers, but it's, even

01:27:34 ◼   ► the 14 inch speakers are pretty incredible for what size they are.

01:27:38 ◼   ► Like these are incredible machines.

01:27:41 ◼   ► I have been so happy.

01:27:43 ◼   ► I still am incredibly happy with my 16 inch as my desktop laptop.

01:27:48 ◼   ► And then when I, you know, when I travel, I usually do bring it so I can have, you know,

01:27:50 ◼   ► all my work stuff with me.

01:27:52 ◼   ► I love this computer so much.

01:27:55 ◼   ► I've still now, you know, even now almost a year and a half in, I've still never heard

01:27:59 ◼   ► a peep from the fan, except for that one time I was training an ML model.

01:28:02 ◼   ► Other than that, like I've never heard the fan in any other usage.

01:28:07 ◼   ► It is an amazing machine.

01:28:08 ◼   ► It's been rock solid for me living most of its life in clamshell mode.

01:28:13 ◼   ► It has just been an incredible machine.

01:28:16 ◼   ► I am, I don't have any envy of the Mac studio.

01:28:21 ◼   ► I don't have any envy of anything else in the lineup right now.

01:28:25 ◼   ► And so what they have done is taken these two amazing computers and now made them a

01:28:32 ◼   ► little bit better.

01:28:33 ◼   ► And so the result is it's still amazing.

01:28:36 ◼   ► They did a speed bump update.

01:28:37 ◼   ► That's all we've asked them to do for most of the time for most of their products.

01:28:41 ◼   ► They did an amazing, you know, an amazing job with these machines in the first place,

01:28:46 ◼   ► you know, a year and a half ago.

01:28:47 ◼   ► And now they're a little bit better with, with, you know, improvements with time.

01:28:51 ◼   ► That's great.

01:28:52 ◼   ► I am just, I'm so, so happy that they are doing such an amazing job at what I think

01:28:59 ◼   ► is probably their most important Mac.

01:29:00 ◼   ► And because this is their highest end, you know, laptop product, like I said, in the

01:29:06 ◼   ► Mac mini, these, these, uh, you know, the upgrade prices feel more egregious, but you

01:29:11 ◼   ► know, they've got the 96 gig RAM option that is to be clear.

01:29:15 ◼   ► It is adding 64 gigs of RAM.

01:29:16 ◼   ► And if you want an additional 64 gigs of RAM, that's 800 extra dollars.

01:29:20 ◼   ► I know it's special RAM, but I know planet does 64 gigs of RAM cost $800.

01:29:24 ◼   ► Similarly the eight terabyte SSD is please add $2,200 big margins, but like this is a

01:29:31 ◼   ► full complete machine.

01:29:32 ◼   ► That used to be a lot more.

01:29:33 ◼   ► Yeah.

01:29:34 ◼   ► This is the full complete machine.

01:29:35 ◼   ► Uh, despite the fact that Marco uses it in clamshell, these screens are pretty amazing

01:29:39 ◼   ► on these laptops.

01:29:40 ◼   ► Yeah.

01:29:41 ◼   ► To 1600 nits, like just totally thin, tiny, thin little things that have amazing color

01:29:46 ◼   ► and amazing HDR.

01:29:47 ◼   ► Uh, it helps that they're small so you can, you know, they can do the brightness across

01:29:50 ◼   ► the entire screen and blah, blah, blah.

01:29:52 ◼   ► But you know, it's, they're very impressive and like, we'll have to see how the heat goes

01:29:57 ◼   ► on these cause the Mac book areas with the M2 are a little bit sweatier than the M1 ones.

01:30:01 ◼   ► So we'll wait to see people, uh, you know, exercise these.

01:30:03 ◼   ► I think there'll be similar cause again, if you look at the, you know, how big is the

01:30:06 ◼   ► M2 max and the M2 pro compared to the M1 counterparts, they're similar in size.

01:30:10 ◼   ► I don't think it will be radically different.

01:30:13 ◼   ► I do think that if you know, if, if they are a little bit hotter, that kind of adds value

01:30:19 ◼   ► to Marco's computer and Casey's experience.

01:30:22 ◼   ► Cause like the M1s are, you know, that's not going to happen anytime soon.

01:30:26 ◼   ► Again, where that kind of leap from the Intel to the M1 and because the M1 was so amazing

01:30:31 ◼   ► and because they were so low power and because they were put into enclosures that were so

01:30:34 ◼   ► overmatched for the amount of heat they produced, it was just, it was just ridiculous.

01:30:38 ◼   ► Whereas now I think over time, I feel like Apple is going to start creeping back up to

01:30:42 ◼   ► the idea of like, we have so much thermal headroom.

01:30:45 ◼   ► Can we push performance a little bit more, which I think is appropriate on the highest

01:30:48 ◼   ► end laptop.

01:30:49 ◼   ► But I feel like, you know, on the M4 16 inch Mac book pro, you may be able to make the

01:30:54 ◼   ► fans audible more than Marco Canon and his M1, you know, Mac book pro right now.

01:30:59 ◼   ► But I'm telling you though, there, I mean, there's so much headroom in this design that

01:31:03 ◼   ► I already have.

01:31:04 ◼   ► I'd be shocked if, if the new one though, I know, but like I'm saying that there's just,

01:31:09 ◼   ► there's so much headroom.

01:31:10 ◼   ► Cause like, cause like now that I, you know, when I was doing the ML training, like what

01:31:14 ◼   ► now that now I, now that I know what it takes to get the fan to be audible, like it took

01:31:19 ◼   ► me maxing out the CPU and GPU for like four hours before I could hear the fan.

01:31:27 ◼   ► It takes a lot to even make, and it wasn't loud.

01:31:31 ◼   ► It just became audible at that point.

01:31:33 ◼   ► So there's a lot of headroom in this design.

01:31:36 ◼   ► So even if the M2 version runs like 15% hotter, like that's, that's not going to be enough

01:31:42 ◼   ► to make it that different.

01:31:44 ◼   ► I don't think.

01:31:45 ◼   ► Yeah.

01:31:46 ◼   ► So John, tell me about the HDMI differences in these machines.

01:31:49 ◼   ► So confusing.

01:31:50 ◼   ► I was trying to figure out like, do they upgrade HDMI 2.1?

01:31:53 ◼   ► I don't see that term used.

01:31:56 ◼   ► But maybe I'm making that up.

01:31:58 ◼   ► So as we discussed on past shows, HDMI 2.1, the, the, whatever consortium defines that

01:32:03 ◼   ► thing recently changed it so that you can essentially claim HDMI 2.1 compliance.

01:32:08 ◼   ► Even if you only use the HDMI 2.0 subset of the features like HDMI 2.1 is like a cafeteria

01:32:13 ◼   ► thing.

01:32:14 ◼   ► Do you want to support this?

01:32:15 ◼   ► This is, everything is optional.

01:32:16 ◼   ► I support that, that, you know, it's just, so you can't just look at something and say,

01:32:20 ◼   ► HDMI 2.1.

01:32:21 ◼   ► I know what that is.

01:32:22 ◼   ► You have to look at all the fine print and see all the different things.

01:32:24 ◼   ► Apple doesn't even seem to claim HDMI 2.1, but what they do say in extremely confusingly

01:32:29 ◼   ► worded passages on their web pages, which I will now read, that if you get an M2 Pro

01:32:34 ◼   ► in your MacBook Pro, you can power quote, up to two external displays with up to 6K

01:32:39 ◼   ► resolution at 60 Hertz over Thunderbolt, or one external display with up to 6K resolution

01:32:44 ◼   ► at 60 Hertz over Thunderbolt and one external display with up to 4K resolution at 144 Hertz

01:32:48 ◼   ► over HDMI.

01:32:50 ◼   ► So again, the reason they're giving these combinations is like it's just one SOC with

01:32:53 ◼   ► a bunch of video stuff in there.

01:32:55 ◼   ► So you have to basically decide how many things do you plug into your Mac and through what

01:33:00 ◼   ► connectors and then what can their maximum resolutions be.

01:33:03 ◼   ► It can also drive one external display at 8K resolution at 60 Hertz or one external display

01:33:09 ◼   ► at 4K resolution at 240 Hertz over HDMI.

01:33:12 ◼   ► 240 Hertz over HDMI is not part of the HDMI 2.0 spec, I believe, but they don't claim

01:33:18 ◼   ► HDMI 2.0.

01:33:19 ◼   ► Anyway, these are the specs, right?

01:33:20 ◼   ► The point is, I don't think you could drive 8K at all before and now you can drive 4K

01:33:24 ◼   ► at really high refresh rates.

01:33:26 ◼   ► Apple doesn't sell a 240 Hertz monitor, but other people do.

01:33:30 ◼   ► So if you want to buy that and run the three games that run well on the Mac, you could

01:33:34 ◼   ► do that.

01:33:36 ◼   ► And then on the M2 Max, you could do up to four external displays, up to three external

01:33:41 ◼   ► displays with 6K resolution at 60 Hertz over Thunderbolt and one external display with

01:33:44 ◼   ► up to 4K resolution at 144 Hertz over HDMI or up to three external displays, up to two

01:33:51 ◼   ► external displays with 6K resolution at 60 Hertz over Thunderbolt and one external display

01:33:55 ◼   ► with up to 8K resolution at 60 Hertz or one external display at 4K resolution at 240 Hertz

01:34:00 ◼   ► over HDMI.

01:34:01 ◼   ► We need parentheses, people.

01:34:02 ◼   ► Clear as day.

01:34:03 ◼   ► We need parentheses to disambiguate because the precedence rules of English are not that

01:34:08 ◼   ► clear and it's not entirely clear.

01:34:10 ◼   ► Anyway, the whole point is all these machines can power monitors at higher resolutions at

01:34:16 ◼   ► higher refresh rates than the past.

01:34:17 ◼   ► So another good thing to see because like I said, the guts of this is not a radically

01:34:21 ◼   ► new GPU or anything like that, but they can do more better than the M1 variants when it

01:34:27 ◼   ► comes to video driving.

01:34:28 ◼   ► So I'm glad to see that the specs are being pushed in all directions because they didn't

01:34:34 ◼   ► have to change how many displays they could drive.

01:34:37 ◼   ► It's not like the past one was like, "Oh, I can't drive enough displays from my 16-inch

01:34:40 ◼   ► MacBook Pro.

01:34:41 ◼   ► It was fine.

01:34:42 ◼   ► It was fine for a laptop.

01:34:43 ◼   ► I'm not expecting 12 displays out of it or whatever."

01:34:44 ◼   ► But they pushed it.

01:34:45 ◼   ► 8K, higher refresh rates.

01:34:47 ◼   ► Again, even though Apple does not sell any monitors, they do that yet.

01:34:51 ◼   ► Please Apple.

01:34:53 ◼   ► Pretty impressive update all around.

01:34:55 ◼   ► The only question mark on these entire machines is what are the thermals and noise like compared

01:35:00 ◼   ► to the M1 ones because they have some big shoes to fill.

01:35:03 ◼   ► But the performance looks like it's going to be a nice speed bump and a nice spec bump

01:35:06 ◼   ► all around.

01:35:07 ◼   ► Yeah.

01:35:08 ◼   ► So I have not ordered one.

01:35:10 ◼   ► I'm sitting here now.

01:35:11 ◼   ► I don't plan to.

01:35:12 ◼   ► I know a lot of times I say that, but it's very unusual that I decide to change my mind

01:35:16 ◼   ► on a $5,000 computer.

01:35:19 ◼   ► I plan to sit this one out.

01:35:20 ◼   ► But Marco, what's your intention?

01:35:22 ◼   ► Well, they said in the video.

01:35:25 ◼   ► There it is.

01:35:26 ◼   ► There it is.

01:35:27 ◼   ► They specifically called it Xcode and they said up to 25% faster than the previous ones.

01:35:34 ◼   ► Right now, my productivity is limited by my brain not compiles right now.

01:35:40 ◼   ► There are different times in my developer life where those factors are different.

01:35:46 ◼   ► Right now, 25% is a decent amount, but there's an up to before it and it's for large projects.

01:35:54 ◼   ► My project, I'm not building Photoshop or anything, so I'm going to sit this one out.

01:35:58 ◼   ► But it's only because I am just so damn happy with my M1 Max 16 inch MacBook Pro that the

01:36:06 ◼   ► difference going from the M1 to the M2 is not significant enough for my needs to justify

01:36:11 ◼   ► all that expense and hassle and everything.

01:36:13 ◼   ► But if for some reason I needed a new desktop laptop today, I would 100% jump on this.

01:36:19 ◼   ► But yeah, what I have now is so close and so good.

01:36:22 ◼   ► And like I said, I feel like the M1 line of computers is going to go down in history as

01:36:26 ◼   ► like those are the good ones because I don't think, not only the leap from the previous

01:36:30 ◼   ► generation but just because they're so sort of like overpowered for the electricity they

01:36:37 ◼   ► consume and I do believe that Apple will start pushing the envelope with the M2, M3, M4 and

01:36:43 ◼   ► on upwards that holding on to an M1 may be a good idea if you don't desperately need

01:36:49 ◼   ► the performance bump.

01:36:50 ◼   ► In terms of compiling 25% faster or whatever, if you're not a developer, you might think,

01:36:56 ◼   ► oh, Marco says he has a small program so he doesn't care about that a little extra time.

01:37:00 ◼   ► But you may not really appreciate the scale, like how big do programs get and how long

01:37:05 ◼   ► do they take to compile.

01:37:06 ◼   ► Marco's thing takes a minute or two to compile.

01:37:09 ◼   ► Who cares if I shave 25% off that maybe a big program will take five minutes, right?

01:37:13 ◼   ► No.

01:37:14 ◼   ► Big programs don't take five minutes as opposed to one minute.

01:37:16 ◼   ► Big programs take 20 minutes, 30 minutes, an hour for a clean build, right?

01:37:22 ◼   ► When you're giving numbers like that and if your build takes a half an hour and we say

01:37:26 ◼   ► we can save you 25%, yeah, you're upgrading from the M1 to the M2 to get that because

01:37:32 ◼   ► 25% of a half an hour we're starting to talk about real time, right?

01:37:37 ◼   ► People aren't doing clean builds, obviously doing incremental builds, but the range of

01:37:41 ◼   ► how long it might take to do a task has wide, it's bigger than you think it is, right?

01:37:47 ◼   ► It's orders of magnitude, not just compiling, but whatever your task is, encoding video

01:37:50 ◼   ► or whatever.

01:37:52 ◼   ► Doing small things can be done in a minute or two and those percentages seem meaningless,

01:37:56 ◼   ► but once you get into taking a half an hour, two hours, multiple hours, even a 1% gain

01:38:02 ◼   ► is worth it.

01:38:03 ◼   ► That's what the high end market is like.

01:38:05 ◼   ► People who are willing to replace, not throw out, but trade in a perfectly good computer

01:38:10 ◼   ► for one that is a few percent faster, you will do that if that few percent literally

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01:40:21 ◼   ► I think I know why, Marco, you haven't bought any of these machines and it's because it's

01:40:28 ◼   ► finally happened.

01:40:30 ◼   ► You finally run out of money because how many of the new HomePod have you bought?

01:40:36 ◼   ► 50?

01:40:37 ◼   ► 100?

01:40:38 ◼   ► 1000?

01:40:39 ◼   ► You've got a lot of money left for any of us.

01:40:41 ◼   ► You've got a stockpile in the basement like cheese graters.

01:40:45 ◼   ► I was patting myself on the back for not buying a MacBook Pro.

01:40:49 ◼   ► Yep, yep.

01:40:50 ◼   ► And then you bought, did you buy a baker's dozen?

01:40:54 ◼   ► A half dozen?

01:40:55 ◼   ► How many HomePods have you bought?

01:40:57 ◼   ► Can you, first of all, can we just pause for a minute?

01:41:00 ◼   ► Can you believe this happened?

01:41:01 ◼   ► Can you believe we got a new full-size HomePod?

01:41:04 ◼   ► I can because we talked about the rumor on a past episode.

01:41:06 ◼   ► Yeah, but look, there's rumors about a whole bunch of stuff that doesn't actually come

01:41:09 ◼   ► out.

01:41:10 ◼   ► Once you talk about them in this show, they're going to happen.

01:41:12 ◼   ► Oh, is that how it is?

01:41:13 ◼   ► Once the rumors bubble up to the point where we're willing to talk about it on this show,

01:41:16 ◼   ► it's probably going to happen.

01:41:18 ◼   ► So let's pause.

01:41:19 ◼   ► Dirty secret for everybody.

01:41:21 ◼   ► So there is a new HomePod, a big HomePod.

01:41:24 ◼   ► It's $300, which is $50 cheaper.

01:41:26 ◼   ► It's still a lot of money.

01:41:28 ◼   ► And also, to be clear, the old big HomePod, while it was officially $350, for most of

01:41:34 ◼   ► its life, was kind of backdoor discounted to $300 through Best Buy and other retailers

01:41:41 ◼   ► who work closely with Apple.

01:41:42 ◼   ► So the old one was basically $300 for most of its life.

01:41:46 ◼   ► So this new one, 2mm shorter, 2mm wider, 2/10 of a kilogram lighter.

01:41:52 ◼   ► But more interestingly, it has five tweeters instead of seven.

01:41:57 ◼   ► It has four microphones instead of six.

01:42:00 ◼   ► The I/O, it's 802.11n, I can't even keep up with what's most modern these days.

01:42:06 ◼   ► There's a reason for that.

01:42:08 ◼   ► So everyone's complaining that it doesn't have 802.11ac at least, or whatever, AX or

01:42:12 ◼   ► WiFi 66e, 6x, whatever.

01:42:16 ◼   ► The reason for this is because the old HomePod was based on an A8 processor from, I mean,

01:42:23 ◼   ► what the hell is that, the iPhone 3GS?

01:42:26 ◼   ► It's some ancient, I know it's not that, but it's some ancient phone model and it was very,

01:42:31 ◼   ► very slow.

01:42:32 ◼   ► And for a device that has no screen, really, there is some deal of GPU power that's being

01:42:39 ◼   ► wasted there.

01:42:40 ◼   ► The CPUs are super old and slow.

01:42:43 ◼   ► So when the HomePod Mini came out, the HomePod Mini used an Apple Watch SoC.

01:42:48 ◼   ► It uses, I believe the Mini uses the S5 or S6 SoC.

01:42:52 ◼   ► I think the S5.

01:42:53 ◼   ► - It's the S5.

01:42:56 ◼   ► - Which makes a lot more sense, 'cause you figure, okay, it's a higher spec processor,

01:43:01 ◼   ► smaller, cheaper, and less GPU power than a phone chip would have, because you don't

01:43:06 ◼   ► need those things in a speaker chip, but you do need something a little bit more modern,

01:43:11 ◼   ► a little bit faster cores, a little bit more Siri-compatible processing power.

01:43:16 ◼   ► And so with the HomePod Mini, they moved the HomePod to the Watch's tech stack on the hardware

01:43:25 ◼   ► end basically.