Upgrade

00:00:00 ◼   ► *BEEP*

00:00:00 ◼   ► [Intro Music]

00:00:08 ◼   ► From Relay FM, this is Upgrade, episode number 39.

00:00:12 ◼   ► Today's show is brought to you by Igloo, an internet you'll actually like.

00:00:15 ◼   ► Lender.com, where you can instantly stream thousands of courses created by industry experts.

00:00:20 ◼   ► And MailRoute, a secure hosted email service for protection from viruses and spam.

00:00:25 ◼   ► My name is Myke Hurley and I am joined by Mr. Jason Snell.

00:00:29 ◼   ► Hi, Jason Snow.

00:00:31 ◼   ► - Hello, Myke Hurley, how are you?

00:00:32 ◼   ► - I am very well, how are you?

00:00:34 ◼   ► - I'm doing fine.

00:00:35 ◼   ► It is, it's another Monday.

00:00:37 ◼   ► We are starting the week together.

00:00:38 ◼   ► A week from now, as we record this,

00:00:42 ◼   ► the Apple WWDC keynote will be happening right now.

00:00:47 ◼   ► - Yeah, this is the big week.

00:00:48 ◼   ► Like, you know, you think WWDC week is like the busy week

00:00:52 ◼   ► of all the, you know, all the crazy stuff happening.

00:00:54 ◼   ► This week is the busy one, trying to get ready for WWDC.

00:00:59 ◼   ► And the week of like, not really the same work,

00:01:03 ◼   ► that's the one that I struggle with, you know?

00:01:05 ◼   ► 'Cause there is work stuff happening,

00:01:07 ◼   ► but there's also a lot of not work stuff happening

00:01:10 ◼   ► and just trying to get everything together,

00:01:11 ◼   ► like pre-recording shows this week and stuff like that,

00:01:14 ◼   ► as well as getting ready for me to travel across the globe.

00:01:19 ◼   ► It's a daunting thing,

00:01:20 ◼   ► but it's something that I look forward to every year

00:01:22 ◼   ► because this week is also the run-up to next week,

00:01:25 ◼   ► which makes me very excited.

00:01:26 ◼   ► - Yeah, next week's gonna be really exciting.

00:01:28 ◼   ► I'm fortunate oftentimes my kids last week of school is WWDC week and I have these commitments

00:01:34 ◼   ► to various kid things that are in the middle of WWDC, which is really inconvenient because

00:01:40 ◼   ► I have work I have to do.

00:01:42 ◼   ► And this year, I don't know what happened.

00:01:44 ◼   ► I got really lucky.

00:01:45 ◼   ► Their last week of school is the week after WWDC.

00:01:48 ◼   ► And most of the events that they're doing in terms of, you know, end of school performances

00:01:53 ◼   ► or trips or things like that are happening this week and a little bit last week. So next

00:01:58 ◼   ► week ended up being almost clear. I think I have one thing on Friday night that I have

00:02:02 ◼   ► to do for my son and otherwise all their stuff is other times. So that's good. I can focus

00:02:08 ◼   ► on WWDC. This will be my first WWDC week without an office in the city. That will also be interesting

00:02:19 ◼   ► because that's a totally different, I think, good,

00:02:22 ◼   ► because I'm not going to have--

00:02:23 ◼   ► people in my office didn't really care

00:02:25 ◼   ► that there was a developer conference going on.

00:02:27 ◼   ► They just wanted to invite me to meetings,

00:02:29 ◼   ► and I wasn't marked as out of office

00:02:30 ◼   ► because I wasn't traveling or anything,

00:02:33 ◼   ► and so I ended up being pulled into meetings

00:02:35 ◼   ► about things that had nothing to do with it.

00:02:37 ◼   ► This year, I could just be focused on WWDC

00:02:41 ◼   ► and everything surrounding it,

00:02:42 ◼   ► so I'm looking forward to that, too.

00:02:44 ◼   ► - That is actually going to be a topic today.

00:02:46 ◼   ► I want to kind of talk to you a little bit about how you're planning for this one.

00:02:53 ◼   ► Alright, but we should do some follow-up first, and then we'll get to it.

00:02:57 ◼   ► How about that?

00:02:58 ◼   ► I would love that.

00:02:59 ◼   ► Format.

00:03:00 ◼   ► It's important for a podcast to have a format.

00:03:02 ◼   ► Our format is that we do follow-up at the beginning.

00:03:04 ◼   ► It's new, it's crazy, I know, most podcasts do their follow-up in the middle, backward,

00:03:11 ◼   ► but we do it at the beginning.

00:03:14 ◼   ► Let's see, we've got a whole smattering of follow-up here.

00:03:17 ◼   ► Is that how you have a smattering?

00:03:19 ◼   ► Is it a whole smattering?

00:03:20 ◼   ► I don't know.

00:03:22 ◼   ► We talked about watching, looking at your Apple Watch in a movie theater.

00:03:27 ◼   ► That came up last week.

00:03:30 ◼   ► And I got a good piece of feedback from Justin on Twitter who said, "You can go into the

00:03:34 ◼   ► Settings app on your Apple Watch and turn off the Activate on Wrist Raise, and that

00:03:39 ◼   ► pretty much will do it, and you don't need to power down."

00:03:42 ◼   ► And that's absolutely true.

00:03:44 ◼   ► You have to go to the app view, find the settings app,

00:03:46 ◼   ► tap on the settings app, scroll down to general,

00:03:49 ◼   ► scroll to activate on wrist raise, and then turn it off.

00:03:52 ◼   ► Powering it down, you know, you press the one button

00:03:54 ◼   ► and hold it down and then slide it to power it down

00:03:56 ◼   ► or put it in the, you know, the power, low power mode.

00:04:00 ◼   ► And then you press and hold and it reboots.

00:04:02 ◼   ► So it depends on what you want to do.

00:04:05 ◼   ► That was a little more fiddly,

00:04:06 ◼   ► but it does keep your watch working during the movie.

00:04:10 ◼   ► and then you go turn it back on when you're done.

00:04:12 ◼   ► So that's a perfectly reasonable approach.

00:04:16 ◼   ► I don't think it's bright enough for it to make a difference.

00:04:18 ◼   ► And I'm warming to my idea that I suggested last time

00:04:22 ◼   ► of creating a face with almost nothing on it,

00:04:25 ◼   ► like a modular face with just the time and have it be red

00:04:27 ◼   ► and just switch to that one when you're in the movie theater

00:04:30 ◼   ► and nobody's gonna notice some red text

00:04:32 ◼   ► popping up every now and then.

00:04:33 ◼   ► - Then we also, we had a bunch of suggestions

00:04:39 ◼   ► about joint list managers.

00:04:41 ◼   ► You remember we talked about grocery apps last week?

00:04:44 ◼   ► - I knew this would happen.

00:04:46 ◼   ► We said all those things about Google

00:04:47 ◼   ► and we got more feedback about grocery lists.

00:04:50 ◼   ► - Yeah, very peculiar.

00:04:51 ◼   ► (laughing)

00:04:53 ◼   ► So the first comes from Lee

00:04:54 ◼   ► and Lee suggests Wunderlist as an option.

00:04:58 ◼   ► Wunderlist is very good.

00:05:00 ◼   ► It has a watch app.

00:05:01 ◼   ► I like Wunderlist.

00:05:03 ◼   ► I've used it for some joint task stuff

00:05:06 ◼   ► and I've been very happy with it.

00:05:07 ◼   ► So I would suggest that.

00:05:09 ◼   ► So this is the thing, that's the kind of thought that I didn't put into it last week, because

00:05:12 ◼   ► I was thinking about like grocery list apps, but where the list is like a task management

00:05:18 ◼   ► app, but it can be used for that for sure.

00:05:20 ◼   ► Sure, there are lots of ways to share lists. One of the nice things about the grocery,

00:05:25 ◼   ► the purpose-built grocery apps is that you can do things like Grocery IQ will let me

00:05:30 ◼   ► scan in a barcode and add that product. And that can be useful when one of the people

00:05:35 ◼   ► shopping doesn't know the exact brand name of the one, what's the one we buy,

00:05:39 ◼   ► what's the size we buy, and that can be really useful when it's got a whole

00:05:42 ◼   ► database. And something freeform like Wunderlist is not going to be able to do

00:05:46 ◼   ► that quite as well, but if you're using it for other things and also you can

00:05:50 ◼   ► use it to do a shared list for shopping, that's absolutely true.

00:05:53 ◼   ► And Harlequin suggested an app called Bring, and there's a few people that

00:05:59 ◼   ► actually suggested this. Yeah, more than one. It looks very interesting.

00:06:04 ◼   ► Like it looks quite nice, it's quite a visual app and it looks like you know you

00:06:08 ◼   ► kind of put in your groceries and your items by using these little icons. Yeah it

00:06:14 ◼   ► looks pretty good. It does look pretty good. It has a watch app as well so that actually

00:06:17 ◼   ► comes with a few recommendations so that's definitely one to check out. And

00:06:21 ◼   ► then Tom Mango who has the perfect name to suggest a grocery list app suggested

00:06:28 ◼   ► paprika. Yeah, which is a recipe app but also has a grocery feature. I do have paprika.

00:06:37 ◼   ► It's not bad. I used to not like it as much. I think it's gotten a lot better. But I was

00:06:43 ◼   ► not even aware that it did groceries, although I'm a skeptic of meal planning. I probably

00:06:49 ◼   ► should be better at meal planning, but a lot of times the stuff that I need at the store

00:06:52 ◼   ► was not, you know, get me the stuff to make a meal. It's I need baking powder. No, I need

00:06:58 ◼   ► some more juice. And so I'm skeptical about grocery apps that are built around meal planning

00:07:07 ◼   ► as the primary, but I can see why that would appeal to some people. And Paprika is a fun

00:07:12 ◼   ► recipe app too. We have one more piece of list follow-up too.

00:07:17 ◼   ► from Casey List. Yeah Casey List yes yes it's in his name Casey List he makes

00:07:26 ◼   ► lots of lists. He suggested an app called Anylist which makes me unhappy because

00:07:31 ◼   ► the only reason that I use silo is because he suggested it and I don't know

00:07:35 ◼   ► why he didn't then update with me personally to tell me about Anylist.

00:07:41 ◼   ► But I like Sylo and this app to me, I mean I find Sylo very simple and visually appealing.

00:07:50 ◼   ► This app to me doesn't have that same visual appeal, but it's there if you want it.

00:07:56 ◼   ► It comes with the list recommendation.

00:08:00 ◼   ► It's on Casey's list.

00:08:04 ◼   ► All right, so there's our meal planning follow-up out of the way.

00:08:11 ◼   ► I can't believe comparatively how little Google follow-up we got.

00:08:15 ◼   ► Well, in fact, our biggest Google follow-up was that Marco wrote a post and then John

00:08:19 ◼   ► Gruber linked to it that was specifically about our discussion.

00:08:23 ◼   ► So that was nice.

00:08:25 ◼   ► Marco Arment wrote a thing called "Why Not Google" over on Marco.org and then Daring

00:08:29 ◼   ► Fireball linked to that.

00:08:32 ◼   ► So that was big.

00:08:34 ◼   ► We also got some feedback.

00:08:37 ◼   ► After the IO keynote, which I should say the Google IO keynote happened last week, we did

00:08:44 ◼   ► talk about it a lot on Clockwise 89, so you can go to relay.fm/clockwise/89 to listen

00:08:49 ◼   ► to that. Me and Dan Morin along with Anjay Tomich and Andy and Iko.

00:08:54 ◼   ► Yeah, that was a really great episode.

00:08:56 ◼   ► Yeah, those guys are both Android users, so that was really helpful to have them in the

00:09:00 ◼   ► mix.

00:09:01 ◼   ► And also just entertaining.

00:09:02 ◼   ► Yes, they are. They're both entertaining. So Andrew wrote in to say, "Do you think using

00:09:10 ◼   ► Google Photos is giving up too much privacy considering what you said in upgrade 38?"

00:09:15 ◼   ► And I thought it was interesting that when Google announced Google Photos, they made

00:09:18 ◼   ► a point of saying that by default, everything that you are using Google Photos for is private,

00:09:25 ◼   ► and it's just for you. Now, their systems can access it all because they do intelligent

00:09:31 ◼   ► things to try and categorize them all. So you have to feel like, you know, comfortable

00:09:36 ◼   ► with the fact that Google's—it's not like some of the Apple stuff where it's encrypted

00:09:40 ◼   ► up on the server and Apple can't see it, so they can't do anything with it. Google doesn't

00:09:43 ◼   ► behave that way. But I would say what—I'm experimenting with Google Photos and I'm interested

00:09:49 ◼   ► to see how it works. And I think what I have said about Google last week and what Myke

00:09:54 ◼   ► said kind of goes, which is, you know, it's being built like Gmail. Their systems are

00:10:02 ◼   ► reading my content and trying to do things with it to make me able to find things faster.

00:10:09 ◼   ► But I don't feel like that there's a Google employee flipping through my photos. That

00:10:14 ◼   ► said, you know, would I be reluctant to have photos that are personally embarrassing, let's

00:10:23 ◼   ► say or compromising in some way, upload it to a cloud service? Well, yeah, any cloud

00:10:27 ◼   ► service, I would say that. Not just Google. I would say it with Apple, too. If you've

00:10:31 ◼   ► got, you know, if you kill somebody and you get pictures of the murder scene, don't put

00:10:34 ◼   ► those in the cloud. Don't do it. Just don't do it.

00:10:38 ◼   ► So on that, though, it is kind of private and solid at the moment, but I think quite

00:10:44 ◼   ► fairly Google has said that that doesn't necessarily mean it will be that way forever. There was

00:10:51 ◼   ► a great interview with Bradley Horowitz who's currently in charge of like

00:10:55 ◼   ► streams and photos I think is what his decision his division is called with

00:11:00 ◼   ► Steven Levy on his Medium blog back channel and so Steven Levy asked is is

00:11:06 ◼   ► that information in photos siloed or is that going to be available to enhance my

00:11:10 ◼   ► Google experience number products so like this is the information that that

00:11:14 ◼   ► they're able to glean via their like their learning but that it was it called

00:11:19 ◼   ► Machine learning, that's it. Yes. Deep neural networks. Yes. Bradley's answer was

00:11:25 ◼   ► the information gleaned from analyzing these photos does not travel outside of

00:11:29 ◼   ► this product, not today. But if I thought we could return immense value to the

00:11:33 ◼   ► users based on this data I'm sure we would reconsider that. For instance if it

00:11:37 ◼   ► were possible for Google Photos to figure out that I have a Tesla and Tesla

00:11:41 ◼   ► wanted to alert me to a recall that would be a service that we would

00:11:44 ◼   ► consider offering with appropriate controls and disclosure to the user.

00:11:47 ◼   ► Google Now is a great example. When I'm late for a flight and I get a Google Now

00:11:51 ◼   ► notification, my flight has been delayed, I can chill out and take an extra hour

00:11:53 ◼   ► breathe deeply. I like the upfrontness and I mean you know this goes back to

00:11:59 ◼   ► that thing again. I see the value in that. I am happy with that. You know? Yeah. Yeah

00:12:04 ◼   ► and this is their game. I think if I had to qualify or let me say if I

00:12:14 ◼   ► I had to summarize the arguments I hear most often about why people don't use Google services.

00:12:21 ◼   ► It's that they're creeped out by the fact, and Marco said this, and I think he's right,

00:12:28 ◼   ► that Apple has its issues, and he says, "Always arrogant, controlling, and inflexible, and

00:12:36 ◼   ► sometimes stingy." And then there's Google, "Always creepy, entitled, and overreaching,

00:12:40 ◼   ► and sometimes oblivious." I think there's truth to that, but I do think that people

00:12:44 ◼   ► see conspiracies where there aren't any. And so I or believe things yeah believe things

00:12:49 ◼   ► that are happening that aren't necessarily happening like we got one piece of feedback

00:12:52 ◼   ► from somebody who said they were searching on Amazon for a product and then later they

00:12:57 ◼   ► went to a different site and they saw an ad for the product they were searching and that

00:13:00 ◼   ► it was creepy. But you know that's not Google that's Amazon and I think I think a lot of

00:13:06 ◼   ► creepy things on the internet get ascribed to Google that I think the creepiest stuff

00:13:10 ◼   ► that happens on the internet is not happening because of Google. I think the creepiest stuff

00:13:13 ◼   ► on the internet is happening because of ad tracking and ad networks. And then I might

00:13:19 ◼   ► put Facebook and then I put Google down on the list. I do think Google does some things

00:13:24 ◼   ► that feel creepy, but that's because I think Google tries very hard to mine information

00:13:31 ◼   ► and apply it in clever ways. And some of the people, let's say the engineers who build

00:13:37 ◼   ► their products, I think don't always consider or and don't have a product manager necessarily

00:13:42 ◼   ► who's considering how that will be viewed by people. Like, this is a great advance.

00:13:47 ◼   ► We can know everything about them. And there's nobody to say, and that will creep them out.

00:13:52 ◼   ► And I think they're getting better at that, actually. I think the Google Photos product

00:13:57 ◼   ► is very cool. I think it's the fact that they don't want you to do any categorization yourself,

00:14:03 ◼   ► and that it just sort of does it for you. It's really cool. They had some of that before

00:14:09 ◼   ► it was inside Google Plus, they'd make their animated GIFs and things like that.

00:14:14 ◼   ► Apple tries to do this stuff too, but the difference is that Apple is doing that on

00:14:16 ◼   ► the Mac, basically, instead of in the cloud. And I think that's the difference in approaches.

00:14:21 ◼   ► The problem right now is that all that metadata doesn't really sync. So you can find faces

00:14:26 ◼   ► on photos on your Mac, but if right now, you know, there's no faces view on the iPhone.

00:14:35 ◼   ► data doesn't sync. So there are some issues with Apple's approach versus the power that

00:14:42 ◼   ► Google can apply to it. But yeah, you know, I get it when people say it's creepy. I just

00:14:47 ◼   ► -- I don't know. I see them applying value and this is the way they have to do it, and

00:14:52 ◼   ► I don't think there's a grand conspiracy that Google's going to learn everything about you

00:14:57 ◼   ► from your photos and then that's a privacy risk or, you know, I just -- you can see it

00:15:03 ◼   ► if you want, but I think Google gets blamed for a lot more than they actually deserve

00:15:06 ◼   ► for creepiness.

00:15:08 ◼   ► Brandon wrote in to say one thing, that this is another thing that Google do get criticized

00:15:16 ◼   ► for and I think in some instances rightly so, that you can invest your time into these

00:15:21 ◼   ► products that they make, but they don't have a real problem with killing things. And you

00:15:29 ◼   ► know you can kind of understand that if it's not working then you got to kill it

00:15:33 ◼   ► but it is a problem that sometimes if something doesn't necessarily meet

00:15:38 ◼   ► whatever the goals are at Google they kill it off and you know I've seen a lot of

00:15:43 ◼   ► people say that about photos I don't think that Google Photos is gonna go

00:15:46 ◼   ► that way because I saw Stephen say this to someone on Twitter and I totally

00:15:51 ◼   ► agree photo management now is a key part of big company strategies like it's just

00:15:57 ◼   ► a thing you have to have now, which is why everybody's doing it.

00:16:01 ◼   ► Absolutely.

00:16:02 ◼   ► And Google has to have it because they have Android.

00:16:06 ◼   ► Well, yeah, I mean, first off, they've got the platform, and that's the most natural

00:16:11 ◼   ► thing for photo integration is on a cell phone.

00:16:15 ◼   ► And it is, I think I wrote a piece about this at some point, maybe last year, that photos

00:16:20 ◼   ► is the nuclear bomb of the internet.

00:16:22 ◼   ► Photos is the thing that everybody wants, and everybody wants everybody's photos.

00:16:27 ◼   ► That is the powerful connection we have.

00:16:30 ◼   ► That's why Facebook wants your photos, that's why Yahoo wants your photos, Google wants

00:16:33 ◼   ► your photos, Apple wants your photos.

00:16:36 ◼   ► Everybody wants your photos because once, if you are the place, everybody puts all of

00:16:40 ◼   ► their photos, then that is basically your home on the internet, at least for this chunk

00:16:46 ◼   ► of your life.

00:16:47 ◼   ► It's a powerful thing.

00:16:49 ◼   ► Dropbox wants all your photos, everybody wants your photos.

00:16:53 ◼   ► So Google has to do it.

00:16:54 ◼   ► Plus, Google is the operating system vendor for a smartphone operating system.

00:16:57 ◼   ► So you have to, you know, you have to integrate it there too.

00:17:02 ◼   ► So it's a natural that this would happen.

00:17:06 ◼   ► I do agree about the spaghetti against the wall problem with Google, that they—

00:17:11 ◼   ► They're kind of too big to do that.

00:17:14 ◼   ► They try a billion different things, and if you adopt all of them, you know, some of those

00:17:20 ◼   ► things are going to get killed.

00:17:21 ◼   ► And I appreciate the fact that they--

00:17:24 ◼   ► how should I phrase this?

00:17:25 ◼   ► I appreciate the discipline that goes with Google deciding

00:17:27 ◼   ► to kill products.

00:17:28 ◼   ► I don't appreciate the lack of discipline

00:17:31 ◼   ► that goes with Google thinking about the products

00:17:34 ◼   ► before they launch them.

00:17:35 ◼   ► I feel like that is a place--

00:17:38 ◼   ► that's a part of Google's personality that I don't like,

00:17:41 ◼   ► is I feel like sometimes they launch stuff

00:17:43 ◼   ► without thinking it through.

00:17:44 ◼   ► And I think that's--

00:17:46 ◼   ► if we talk about sort of arrogant behavior

00:17:48 ◼   ► of large corporations in the technology world,

00:17:50 ◼   ► I think that is one of Google's most arrogant bits of behavior, is we're so big that we

00:17:55 ◼   ► can have these kind of half-assed ideas for products and put them out there and see what

00:18:01 ◼   ► happens.

00:18:03 ◼   ► And the consequence of that is a lot of people waste a lot of time building products and

00:18:08 ◼   ► using products that are crippled, that are never going to make it, and that end up being

00:18:14 ◼   ► colossal failures.

00:18:15 ◼   ► And this is, I mean, yeah, I'm coming as somebody who has really watched Apple for a long time

00:18:20 ◼   ► time. This is one of the places where Apple is better. Apple's not pristine at this either,

00:18:25 ◼   ► but Apple is better at having discipline about the products they release that they're not

00:18:29 ◼   ► going to a year later go, "Oh, never mind." Now, you know, we can always come with examples.

00:18:34 ◼   ► Ping is a good example of a badly thought out product that didn't work. And I, you know,

00:18:40 ◼   ► we can, we can talk about and many, much ink has been spilled about why Ping was a failure

00:18:45 ◼   ► and what that said about Apple at the time. But I do think that that makes you gun-shy.

00:18:50 ◼   ► It's like people who said they won't watch any more sci-fi shows on Fox after they cancel

00:18:54 ◼   ► Firefly. It's like there's a lack of trust. They're just going to cancel the show that

00:18:56 ◼   ► I love, so I'm just not going to watch any other shows because they're just, they're

00:19:00 ◼   ► cancellers. They're going to cancel me. And, you know, there was some truth to that and

00:19:04 ◼   ► some of it was just paranoia. But I totally get the emotional reaction to that. And I

00:19:09 ◼   ► think Google, that is a problem with Google. Is Google Voice, if you rely on Google Voice,

00:19:13 ◼   ► certain are you, as Brandon pointed out, that Google Voice is gonna be there next

00:19:17 ◼   ► year? They don't talk about it. They kind of aren't into it. So is it just gonna

00:19:21 ◼   ► fade away? Yeah, if I was a Google Voice user I would start seriously thinking

00:19:27 ◼   ► about not being a Google Voice user. Yeah. Like, they bring out everything at I/O

00:19:32 ◼   ► and they do not bring that out. You know, they put products on, they put products

00:19:37 ◼   ► and people on stage at I/O that don't have to be on stage at I/O. They could make

00:19:42 ◼   ► cover features about. Like for example I think it's great that they did it but

00:19:47 ◼   ► you know all the stuff where they were talking about like trying to help the

00:19:50 ◼   ► developing world things like that. That was fantastic but didn't necessarily fit

00:19:55 ◼   ► the developer conference because it was kind of just like this is stuff that

00:19:58 ◼   ► Google's doing. To what I saw there didn't really seem to be any tools they were

00:20:02 ◼   ► giving but it was like the world's view is on them so basically let's tell the

00:20:11 ◼   ► world the incredible things that we do? Does that make sense? But I very

00:20:17 ◼   ► much enjoyed that part of the keynote but it didn't necessarily fit with what

00:20:23 ◼   ► the overall theme of the day was. So basically what I'm saying is

00:20:28 ◼   ► they bring out stuff that they think is important to them. They do not ever talk

00:20:33 ◼   ► about Google Voice, which used to be something that was very important.

00:20:37 ◼   ► No, it'll probably survive as a feature inside Hangouts. It's already integrated

00:20:41 ◼   ► with Hangouts now. But yeah, I mean, if your business relies on Google Voice and you've

00:20:45 ◼   ► got a whole workflow based on Google Voice, you've got to be nervous about that. Ben Thompson

00:20:48 ◼   ► —

00:20:49 ◼   ► Yeah, look at Hangouts instead.

00:20:50 ◼   ► Yeah, Ben Thompson had a good piece at Stratechery about how he thought that the second half

00:20:54 ◼   ► of the keynote was much more representative of Google's strengths about machine learning

00:20:57 ◼   ► and deep neural networks and doing really smart things with data. That's what they're

00:21:01 ◼   ► good at. The first half of the keynote felt like it was like the stuff — it was obligatory.

00:21:06 ◼   ► They had to talk about Android. And I thought it was really interesting that Android M is

00:21:11 ◼   ► pitched largely as a bug fix release and then the features that they did add are

00:21:15 ◼   ► sort of just like trying to unify things that where they're perceived as being a

00:21:19 ◼   ► little bit behind Apple and I'm hoping that from Apple's side we get something

00:21:23 ◼   ► similar at WWDC which is bug fixes are important, stability is important, as

00:21:28 ◼   ► Google you know Google went on stage and said that that that these operating

00:21:32 ◼   ► systems have been moving really fast they've added a lot of features to them

00:21:36 ◼   ► we need to shake out some of the bugs now and I was I was happy to hear them

00:21:40 ◼   ► say that. Yeah. And a bunch of my, like, on Clockwise, Anjay and Andy both

00:21:44 ◼   ► both said the same thing, which is, "Yeah, please, you know, please make them more

00:21:48 ◼   ► stable and fix the battery life problems," and, you know, Android users, they

00:21:53 ◼   ► were, they were very pleased to hear Google say, "We're gonna slow down and fix

00:21:58 ◼   ► some bugs." Is it bad for me to say that whilst I want that on Monday, that isn't

00:22:05 ◼   ► all I want. Well, is that bad to say? No, I would go back to when they did Snow Leopard,

00:22:13 ◼   ► when Apple did Snow Leopard, they pitched it as about features and stability and bug

00:22:18 ◼   ► fixes and things like that, and in the end there were still a hundred new features. I

00:22:23 ◼   ► think you can get more than that, but I think having a focus on it, saying look, instead

00:22:28 ◼   ► of having eight amazing new features, we're going to have four amazing new features, and

00:22:33 ◼   ► then feature five is bugs and, you know, decreased bugs and more stability.

00:22:39 ◼   ► I think that's what you do is you scale it back a little bit.

00:22:43 ◼   ► After iOS 7 and 8, I feel like there was so much in those that scaling it back is still

00:22:50 ◼   ► going to add a bunch of stuff, but they also have added so much stuff that kind of works

00:22:54 ◼   ► that probably needs to actually work.

00:22:57 ◼   ► So I feel like that's the other piece here is let's fix up some of the stuff that we've

00:23:03 ◼   ► left kind of half-built and let's also take some of our old stuff that's

00:23:06 ◼   ► falling apart and rebuild it. So that's what I'm hoping for. I mean we're sort of

00:23:10 ◼   ► jumping ahead here but I'm hoping for a mixture of those things.

00:23:13 ◼   ► One thing that they could do, I mean probably developers will think I'm crazy

00:23:19 ◼   ► here, but like the problem is it seems to be adding like things that are core to

00:23:26 ◼   ► the OS is making more problems, right? The more core OS features you add the more

00:23:32 ◼   ► complexity you add and you're taking people that could be fixing bugs and

00:23:36 ◼   ► making them make new features. But what if you just had people that were building

00:23:39 ◼   ► cool apps that came with iOS 9, right? So they don't necessarily affect the OS but

00:23:47 ◼   ► could be other things. And when I say that I mean like the music streaming

00:23:50 ◼   ► service, right? I mean yes it takes work on the music app but that's just the

00:23:55 ◼   ► music app, you know? And then they have like a service that goes alongside it.

00:23:59 ◼   ► Like let's say they do TV stuff and then they have a new entertainment app on the

00:24:03 ◼   ► iPhone or something, so they feel like OS features but really they're kind of just

00:24:08 ◼   ► like things that they just release with the OS. Is that crazy? Am I like am I

00:24:13 ◼   ► totally barking up the wrong tree?

00:24:15 ◼   ► No, it depends on where they put their emphasis but I mean we've

00:24:19 ◼   ► definitely looked at some of the apps that Apple ships are not up to the

00:24:24 ◼   ► standard of the best apps on the platform right and they probably should

00:24:28 ◼   ► be. So I think that's reasonable and that stuff that doesn't necessarily interfere with

00:24:33 ◼   ► the infrastructure. There is a delicate line Apple needs to walk between, and they always

00:24:40 ◼   ► move from one side to the other, which is do we create apps that are just going to kill

00:24:45 ◼   ► other app opportunities or do we create things that only Apple can create? And they do a

00:24:48 ◼   ► little bit of both.

00:24:50 ◼   ► - Yep. Are we out of follow-up now?

00:24:55 ◼   ► And there was one other thing I wanted to mention briefly, which was just, uh, uh, Williams,

00:24:59 ◼   ► who identified himself as an upgrade-er-oo, not acceptable, um, said that, uh, "We use

00:25:05 ◼   ► Google Drive at work and have hundreds of gigabytes of data from several years of projects."

00:25:08 ◼   ► And he says, "Searching it is surprisingly terrible."

00:25:10 ◼   ► Yeah, it's weird. I've started doing that recently, 'cause I'm getting more and more

00:25:14 ◼   ► and more files in Google Drive, so I'm just searching them. And it doesn't work as well

00:25:19 ◼   ► as you'd think it would work, which doesn't make sense.

00:25:21 ◼   ► screwed up Google Drive. This is an example where Google, you know, if there are people,

00:25:26 ◼   ► are there people with blogs about Google services like there are about Apple stuff? Because

00:25:30 ◼   ► this is where people should be howling. I should write a story about this at some point.

00:25:34 ◼   ► They've screwed it up. The fact that you've got Drive and Sheets and Docs and Slides,

00:25:40 ◼   ► and they behave differently on those different pages, it used to be like everything was in

00:25:44 ◼   ► Drive and Google Docs was essentially the same, it's synonymous with Google Drive and

00:25:48 ◼   ► everything was in there and you could search for it and you can find your spreadsheet,

00:25:50 ◼   ► You can find your document.

00:25:52 ◼   ► And now they're all separate.

00:25:54 ◼   ► The search behavior is different in different ones.

00:25:57 ◼   ► I try to find a file that I know is a spreadsheet

00:26:01 ◼   ► and I can't find it in one place,

00:26:03 ◼   ► but I can find it in another place.

00:26:04 ◼   ► And then I've got the version of it that's on my,

00:26:07 ◼   ► that syncs onto my Mac,

00:26:10 ◼   ► where I actually launch a bunch of things.

00:26:12 ◼   ► I have Launch Bar searching the file names there,

00:26:14 ◼   ► but there's no content there.

00:26:15 ◼   ► And what's William said is that, you know,

00:26:17 ◼   ► it's better to just download the whole thing locally

00:26:19 ◼   ► search in the Finder, which is kind of sad.

00:26:21 ◼   ► Yeah, because what it does, for anybody that doesn't know, if you do the Google Drive thing,

00:26:25 ◼   ► it just downloads links to the web pages, basically.

00:26:30 ◼   ► Yeah, it's little file names and links.

00:26:33 ◼   ► So that's actually great for LaunchBar, because I can launch something based on a file name

00:26:38 ◼   ► in Google Drive and it opens it.

00:26:40 ◼   ► But yeah, that's something where they are—I assume this is just all fallout from their

00:26:45 ◼   ► transition to the—they want to have this idea that Google Drive is a cloud drive, and

00:26:49 ◼   ► It used to be that Google Drive was really just Google Docs, which was really a collection

00:26:52 ◼   ► of files that were in the web app, and now it's more complicated than that.

00:26:58 ◼   ► But on iOS, they've got the Drive app plus all the different individual Docs apps, and

00:27:02 ◼   ► then on the web, they've got the same thing.

00:27:04 ◼   ► And you know, yeah, it's hard to search and it's hard to scan for files.

00:27:11 ◼   ► And I will agree with Swilliams that it's kind of a mess right now.

00:27:14 ◼   ► I imagine it'll get better.

00:27:16 ◼   ► They tend to go through this period with Google apps, especially on the web where they work

00:27:22 ◼   ► really well and then they release some new features and they're not that good and then

00:27:25 ◼   ► they get better.

00:27:26 ◼   ► But with web apps, you can never not upgrade.

00:27:29 ◼   ► So you just have to go along for the ride.

00:27:31 ◼   ► And yeah, it's kind of rough right now.

00:27:33 ◼   ► So I wanted to mention that one too.

00:27:35 ◼   ► >> Yeah.

00:27:36 ◼   ► It frustrates me knowing that I have to have four apps installed.

00:27:40 ◼   ► I just don't understand.

00:27:42 ◼   ► Because then like I use Launch Center Pro to launch all of my, I use Launch Center Pro

00:27:46 ◼   ► as basically a launcher for Google Drive.

00:27:50 ◼   ► So I have links to my most used files in there.

00:27:54 ◼   ► But then every time I open it, and then opening three applications to get to one document,

00:27:59 ◼   ► because I have to open Launch Center Pro, then Drive, and then Docs.

00:28:04 ◼   ► Because like, yeah, I could just open Drive and it's two apps, but then it takes way longer

00:28:10 ◼   ► to find the app.

00:28:11 ◼   ► So it's just like, why? Why don't I just, why isn't this all just one app? Like it's

00:28:16 ◼   ► crazy making.

00:28:17 ◼   ► Should we take a break?

00:28:19 ◼   ► I think so.

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00:31:02 ◼   ► supporting this show and all of Relay FM. So this is your first WWDC as the

00:31:10 ◼   ► editor-in-chief of Six Colors. It is, yes. Have you received an invite? Yes.

00:31:16 ◼   ► Congratulations. I did, I got a very nice email from Apple PR asking me to appear

00:31:21 ◼   ► at the keynote, so I will do that. I will present myself on Monday morning, June

00:31:26 ◼   ► 8th at Moscone Center and yeah so I'm looking forward to it so I'll be there

00:31:33 ◼   ► I'll be in attendance in person. So is it just you? Well the massive Six

00:31:43 ◼   ► Color staff of me and Dan, Dan is coming but I don't think Dan got an invite so I

00:31:47 ◼   ► think I'll be the only one in the in the room for that. It won't just be me at

00:31:52 ◼   ► the keynote, there'll be like several thousand other people there though.

00:31:55 ◼   ► I didn't think you were handling nameplates for everybody.

00:32:00 ◼   ► I'm just, I'm taking care of it. I'm the pool reporter at the developer conference. I do

00:32:05 ◼   ► type fast. I could do that. Yeah. So I'll be there. And the question that we've had

00:32:12 ◼   ► since we've been doing Six Colors is how do you cover the keynote? Because it's going

00:32:16 ◼   ► to be live cast. And in the past what we've done is we've had a

00:32:22 ◼   ► Six Colors event Twitter account that it will probably be where what I do is I'll

00:32:30 ◼   ► be watching the event and taking some pictures and putting things in the

00:32:34 ◼   ► Twitter account and that'll be it. Although I have thought about

00:32:40 ◼   ► gauging how much of that I do. I've always envied John Gruber who sits there

00:32:45 ◼   ► with a, you know, like a Moleskine or a Field Notes or something and just sort of takes

00:32:49 ◼   ► notes with a pen and ponders what's going on. And the problem with live blogging is

00:32:54 ◼   ► that you don't have time to ponder. You have -- you just type furiously. The nice thing

00:33:00 ◼   ► about the tweeting is knowing that everybody can, you know, not everybody, but many people

00:33:04 ◼   ► have access to the video. The tweeting, you can hit the highlights and not -- and not

00:33:10 ◼   ► go into like verbatim quotes about what's happening on stage and so that's better but

00:33:16 ◼   ► I also sometimes wonder whether I should just not worry about live. But you know Dan and

00:33:25 ◼   ► I have had so much fun doing live blogging of events in the past that I kind of don't

00:33:30 ◼   ► want to give it up entirely but there's always that question of like how much do I want to

00:33:34 ◼   ► focus on covering the event moment by moment and how much do I want to think about the

00:33:41 ◼   ► event and think about what the highlights are so that I can write some things afterward

00:33:46 ◼   ► without having to reprocess the whole keynote in my mind from a different perspective because

00:33:51 ◼   ► I was too busy kind of like tweeting or live blogging during it. It's a tough one and honestly

00:33:58 ◼   ► as the proprietor of Six Colors what I'm really thinking is what's best for Six Colors. Is

00:34:03 ◼   ► Is it better for our tweets about what's going on to get circulated around so that people

00:34:08 ◼   ► know we exist and hopefully that'll improve our readership?

00:34:12 ◼   ► Or is it better for us to bypass that or not be as focused on that in order to generate

00:34:19 ◼   ► some better stuff later?

00:34:22 ◼   ► That's something that I grapple with and I have since I left Macworld.

00:34:26 ◼   ► I mean, it might be interesting to try out, you know, obviously not right now

00:34:33 ◼   ► because it's a bit soon, but like, you know, you could be the drone grouper in the

00:34:37 ◼   ► audience and you could have Dan and somebody else maybe take over the

00:34:40 ◼   ► Twitter stream because it's all, we'll watch a video, we'll see the same thing now.

00:34:43 ◼   ► Yeah, well that's the thing is what Twitter gets you is if you're in

00:34:49 ◼   ► the room you can break news. It's stupid because it's just on

00:34:54 ◼   ► Twitter but you can do it and I've had that experience where I'll say you know here's

00:34:59 ◼   ► the new MacBook and it does this and it costs this and I'll have that retweeted hundreds

00:35:03 ◼   ► or thousands of times because I was one of the first people to make that to break that

00:35:07 ◼   ► on Twitter. That's nice I'm not sure if that leads anywhere in terms of our business right

00:35:12 ◼   ► but it's it's it's kind of nice in the moment and you are you are using the fact that you're

00:35:16 ◼   ► one of the people in the group that got invited to be in the room as opposed to on a potentially

00:35:21 ◼   ► janky and delayed buffered video stream. At the same time, yeah, the other approach would

00:35:30 ◼   ► be to say it's not worth it and focus on, you know, your deep thoughts and the experience

00:35:36 ◼   ► of being there so that you can write something. And this is the challenge I've got, you know,

00:35:40 ◼   ► there's only one Gruber and he was he made a comment about how, you know, he is the only

00:35:46 ◼   ► person who's ever written anything on Daring Fireball and, you know, the fact is like I

00:35:49 ◼   ► I have Dan and I've had some other contributors and Federico has some contributors on Mac

00:35:53 ◼   ► Stories and you know there's only one Gruber and he has reached his place because he deserves

00:36:00 ◼   ► it.

00:36:01 ◼   ► He's very good at what he does and this is one of the things he does is not play that

00:36:05 ◼   ► game and I always ask myself that it's like you know I could I could try to be Gruber

00:36:10 ◼   ► but I'm not Gruber I'm my own person with my own strengths and weaknesses that are different

00:36:13 ◼   ► from his.

00:36:14 ◼   ► Although I admire his ability to sit there and just ponder and write things in his notebook.

00:36:22 ◼   ► And seriously, my memories of these keynotes are, there are five of us frantically typing,

00:36:27 ◼   ► and then I'll look over and I'll see Gruber, and he's just sitting there, you know, like,

00:36:31 ◼   ► pondering, nodding, writing a little thing down on a piece of paper with a pen.

00:36:35 ◼   ► And you know, the envy that shoots out of you as you're frantically typing.

00:36:41 ◼   ► So it's, you know, it's a good question.

00:36:44 ◼   ► But I don't want to do the verbatim kind of stuff.

00:36:46 ◼   ► That's kind of ridiculous.

00:36:47 ◼   ► And yeah, I do sometimes think it would be better if I said, "Hey, Dan, you know, you'll

00:36:51 ◼   ► have access to a live stream.

00:36:53 ◼   ► Why don't you do some tweeting?"

00:36:55 ◼   ► And I'm just gonna—I'll interject every now and then, but I'm not gonna do all the

00:36:59 ◼   ► heavy lifting.

00:37:00 ◼   ► I'll take some pictures, but I'm not gonna do a live photo stream from the event either,

00:37:05 ◼   ► because in the end, what's most important is that I'm here paying attention.

00:37:08 ◼   ► So you know, that's a difference between breaking—covering it as breaking news and covering it from the

00:37:14 ◼   ► the big picture perspective and probably given what I am doing now and what Six Colors is

00:37:21 ◼   ► I'd be better off focusing on the big picture than on the breaking news because breaking

00:37:25 ◼   ► news everybody's doing it. Ben Thompson is out there nodding if he heard that. Yes Jason

00:37:32 ◼   ► yes do analysis don't do breaking news breaking news is a commodity everybody can do breaking

00:37:38 ◼   ► news. It's true.

00:37:39 ◼   ► it's true. I'm finding myself a little bit conflicted about this conversation

00:37:43 ◼   ► um because I feel like my opinion keeps changing

00:37:47 ◼   ► so like well because like a moment ago I said to you like you know anyone can do

00:37:53 ◼   ► the breaking news because everyone's got the video feed

00:37:56 ◼   ► but like part of the benefit of having people in the audience like John is

00:38:02 ◼   ► he could see the people on the stage and could get the feel of the room and the

00:38:05 ◼   ► understanding for what's happening but now again we can all do that now to a

00:38:11 ◼   ► certain to a certain I mean it's not exactly the same but like we can all see

00:38:14 ◼   ► the video so like it's just I wonder because at the same time do you find

00:38:20 ◼   ► that your that your think piece is like is is less effective because you were

00:38:30 ◼   ► like frantically typing no but it takes more time I would say to process what

00:38:35 ◼   ► happens because I do have to sort of go back and replay it. If not, like, literally, I

00:38:40 ◼   ► have to replay my memories of it and think about it in terms of what my analysis is,

00:38:46 ◼   ► because there's not a lot of room for analysis when you're typing frantically. But that's

00:38:50 ◼   ► the question too about, like, what's the difference between being in the room and not? If they

00:38:55 ◼   ► announce products, it's possible that we'll get briefings afterward, but this is a WWDC

00:38:59 ◼   ► keynote. It's not like other Apple events where there's a demo room every time because,

00:39:04 ◼   ► know, there's a conference afterward. So what's our purpose in being there versus somebody

00:39:09 ◼   ► watching on the live stream? That's why I've thought about covering it is that we are ahead

00:39:14 ◼   ► of the live stream. So that's an advantage to it. But at the same time, you know, there

00:39:19 ◼   ► are lots of people there who are covering it for news outlets who are going to break

00:39:22 ◼   ► the news. Do I really need to do that? So it's, you know, there's no easy answer here

00:39:28 ◼   ► because all of us get to see the keynote. It was different when it got posted hours

00:39:31 ◼   ► later or didn't get posted at all, right? But it's not like that now, so that's the question.

00:39:38 ◼   ► Because it was one of the most interesting things to me about these most recent events was

00:39:46 ◼   ► after the Apple Watch event where I was telling you and Federico what was happening afterwards.

00:39:52 ◼   ► You know, like we did the show and you hadn't been online. And I was having to explain to you both

00:39:57 ◼   ► like things that had happened in the keynote and information that came out afterwards. And it was

00:40:01 ◼   ► - It's really interesting that you've been in the room,

00:40:03 ◼   ► however, you were in this like bubble.

00:40:05 ◼   ► - That happens more when there's that hands-on area

00:40:08 ◼   ► afterward, 'cause then you're in the hands-on area

00:40:10 ◼   ► getting your hands on the products,

00:40:11 ◼   ► which is something that nobody else,

00:40:13 ◼   ► people who aren't there don't get to touch the products.

00:40:15 ◼   ► So that's like your number one advantage

00:40:17 ◼   ► in being there live.

00:40:18 ◼   ► But at the same time, when you're doing that,

00:40:20 ◼   ► you're not pawing through all the PR and all the tech notes

00:40:24 ◼   ► and finding out all these other weird details

00:40:27 ◼   ► that are coming out from other sources

00:40:31 ◼   ► because you're just busy looking at the Apple Watch

00:40:33 ◼   ► or typing on the MacBook

00:40:35 ◼   ► or whatever the new product is at the time.

00:40:38 ◼   ► - I would challenge you, Jason Snell,

00:40:42 ◼   ► the next special event to not live blog it,

00:40:47 ◼   ► to have people do it for you and you think.

00:40:52 ◼   ► - All right, we'll see.

00:40:53 ◼   ► - I think that would be interesting.

00:40:54 ◼   ► - We'll see.

00:40:55 ◼   ► - Try and get the best of both worlds out of it.

00:40:57 ◼   ► - I always consider it.

00:40:59 ◼   ► that may happen. We'll see.

00:41:01 ◼   ► - So let's talk about WWDC, the actual,

00:41:03 ◼   ► I'm interested in your preparation.

00:41:06 ◼   ► So I would like to do a kind of day in the life,

00:41:09 ◼   ► if you don't mind.

00:41:10 ◼   ► - Okay.

00:41:11 ◼   ► - So what time of day does WWDC start for you?

00:41:16 ◼   ► Like the keynote day?

00:41:17 ◼   ► - Well, let's say the keynote starts at 10.

00:41:20 ◼   ► They start doing registration, I think at eight.

00:41:23 ◼   ► Is that right?

00:41:24 ◼   ► Something like that.

00:41:24 ◼   ► I should look at-

00:41:27 ◼   ► - You should look at your invite.

00:41:28 ◼   ► - I should look at my invite and see, right?

00:41:30 ◼   ► - Oh, it was yesterday.

00:41:31 ◼   ► - Yeah, did I miss it?

00:41:35 ◼   ► Did they, no, I think it's the,

00:41:40 ◼   ► it starts at the keynote thing opens at,

00:41:44 ◼   ► check-in begins at eight, doors at nine, keynote at 10.

00:41:49 ◼   ► So what I'm gonna do is aim to be there

00:41:51 ◼   ► between eight and nine, you know,

00:41:53 ◼   ► be on the eight side of eight and nine.

00:41:55 ◼   ► And that means getting to the city by 8.30,

00:41:59 ◼   ► I'll give myself an hour.

00:42:00 ◼   ► I probably don't need all of that.

00:42:01 ◼   ► So that's 7.30.

00:42:02 ◼   ► So leave the house at 7.30, and then you back up.

00:42:05 ◼   ► How long does it take for you to get up and shower

00:42:08 ◼   ► and get ready and get out the door?

00:42:11 ◼   ► Which for me is generally not a lot of time.

00:42:14 ◼   ► But yeah. - 7.15, I'll wake up.

00:42:16 ◼   ► - I'll set the alarm for 6.30 or something like that.

00:42:18 ◼   ► Yeah.

00:42:19 ◼   ► And I'll pack up.

00:42:21 ◼   ► The night before I will hopefully have packed up my stuff.

00:42:24 ◼   ► camera, again, especially if I've decided that I'm going to be taking pictures and

00:42:28 ◼   ► things, camera and laptop and the right cables, all of that sort of thing in a

00:42:35 ◼   ► bag ready to go so that I'm, you know, I don't have to pack my bag when I'm

00:42:40 ◼   ► leaving in the morning. Usually if I'm taking pictures too, I've got this tethering

00:42:43 ◼   ► set up using aperture, and so I will end up the day before, you know, running a

00:42:48 ◼   ► test with that on a Sunday afternoon where I've got my camera open and it's

00:42:52 ◼   ► tethered to my laptop and I'm taking pictures to make sure that all my

00:42:55 ◼   ► scripts and stuff to upload that stuff actually works.

00:43:00 ◼   ► What do you do when you get to Moscone? Like, what actually happens?

00:43:05 ◼   ► Well, it used to be I'd drive to the office and then I'd walk over, but I don't have an

00:43:09 ◼   ► office anymore, so I will park somewhere probably in the mission garage, which is

00:43:13 ◼   ► right next to—it's right around the corner from Moscone, it's an enormous

00:43:15 ◼   ► parking garage. And you get there, and if registration has opened, then, you

00:43:22 ◼   ► know, you basically you walk in, you say that you're with the press because

00:43:24 ◼   ► there's a long, long developer line that's waited for hours and hours. With

00:43:28 ◼   ► the press you just walk in, say I'm here for media registration, they

00:43:32 ◼   ► point you down, and then there are, you know, two or three people from

00:43:36 ◼   ► Apple PR sitting at a table, and if you go at eight o'clock there'll be a long

00:43:40 ◼   ► line of media people who are waiting in that line, and if you go at at 840

00:43:44 ◼   ► there's probably nobody there. That's how it works. People get there really early

00:43:49 ◼   ► and wait in the line, and then if you go a little bit later there's often no line

00:43:52 ◼   ► at all. And they'll give you a badge and send you upstairs. And you go up to the third floor,

00:43:57 ◼   ► so you go up two long escalator rides to get to the top. And there's an area where the press is.

00:44:04 ◼   ► So on the way up, you'll often see they'll stage some of the line for the developers will be on the

00:44:09 ◼   ► second floor. So they'll be going up one set of escalators, you're going up another set. You'll

00:44:13 ◼   ► see people sometimes waiting in the queue on the second floor to come up. And then you-

00:44:19 ◼   ► - I kind of imagine everyone going up the press escalator,

00:44:23 ◼   ► like, "Yeah."

00:44:25 ◼   ► - Yeah, there's a little bit of that.

00:44:27 ◼   ► There's a little bit of that.

00:44:28 ◼   ► And then you get up to the third floor

00:44:29 ◼   ► and that's where all the keynote guests are

00:44:32 ◼   ► that are not the developers.

00:44:34 ◼   ► So that's your media and VIPs and analysts

00:44:36 ◼   ► and stuff like that.

00:44:37 ◼   ► And there's usually, you know, it's WWDC,

00:44:40 ◼   ► so there's a refreshment station there.

00:44:42 ◼   ► So there's juice and some food and stuff like that,

00:44:44 ◼   ► which I tend not to drink

00:44:47 ◼   ► because then you have to go to the bathroom

00:44:49 ◼   ► during the keynote, which is a bad idea.

00:44:51 ◼   ► Although the other way to do it is to,

00:44:53 ◼   ► also sometimes that you can't get to the bathroom

00:44:56 ◼   ► on the third floor before the keynote doors open,

00:44:59 ◼   ► and that's difficult, 'cause then you have to go back down

00:45:01 ◼   ► and you have to negotiate your way back down

00:45:03 ◼   ► and then back up and it's a whole thing.

00:45:04 ◼   ► So this is not interesting.

00:45:06 ◼   ► Anyway, that is, so you end up waiting up there

00:45:08 ◼   ► and then at some point the doors open.

00:45:11 ◼   ► What they'll do is they'll load in the photographers first,

00:45:13 ◼   ► 'cause they get to go to the special photographer area.

00:45:15 ◼   ► And then at some point they just let you go

00:45:17 ◼   ► and everybody sort of, as it gets closer to that time,

00:45:20 ◼   ► all the press are just sort of massing

00:45:21 ◼   ► closer and closer toward the door,

00:45:23 ◼   ► closer and closer toward where the doors are gonna be,

00:45:26 ◼   ► and then the doors come up and you walk in.

00:45:28 ◼   ► And some people run, but that's really undignified,

00:45:30 ◼   ► and there's usually a lot of room,

00:45:31 ◼   ► and you get up there and you try to find a spot

00:45:36 ◼   ► that's close and not a terrible angle

00:45:38 ◼   ► 'cause they put us off to the side.

00:45:40 ◼   ► You know, and then, and if you've run into some people

00:45:42 ◼   ► and you wanna sit near them,

00:45:43 ◼   ► then you keep eye contact with them

00:45:46 ◼   ► and find where they're all sitting,

00:45:47 ◼   ► and you sit there and that's it.

00:45:49 ◼   ► And then usually what happens is we all get seated in there

00:45:53 ◼   ► and then there's a roar and that's the rush

00:45:55 ◼   ► of all the developers running in.

00:45:57 ◼   ► - Is there a lot of running?

00:45:58 ◼   ► - Developers do a lot of running.

00:46:01 ◼   ► That's where Fist Pump Guy comes from.

00:46:02 ◼   ► Fist Pump Guy is a runner.

00:46:04 ◼   ► Fist Pump Guy runs to the point where he can be on camera

00:46:07 ◼   ► going, "Whoa!" and pumping his fist, that guy.

00:46:10 ◼   ► They, yeah, no, the developers are excited

00:46:12 ◼   ► and they wanna get good seats so they run.

00:46:14 ◼   ► Lot of running.

00:46:16 ◼   ► They've also been standing a long time in a line.

00:46:18 ◼   ► And finally they're let loose.

00:46:20 ◼   ► They're unchained to run.

00:46:22 ◼   ► And they do.

00:46:23 ◼   ► Run developers, run!

00:46:24 ◼   ► - What do you do afterwards?

00:46:29 ◼   ► - Afterwards is funny.

00:46:33 ◼   ► So the lights come up and you're standing there

00:46:35 ◼   ► and some people go to the front

00:46:36 ◼   ► and try to get a moment with Tim or something like that

00:46:38 ◼   ► or overhear what Tim is talking about.

00:46:40 ◼   ► That happens sometimes or Phil Schiller

00:46:41 ◼   ► 'cause usually at the front of that area,

00:46:44 ◼   ► There'll be sometimes with a product that got announced,

00:46:49 ◼   ► that'll be at the front.

00:46:50 ◼   ► WWDC is a little bit different in that you have this event

00:46:54 ◼   ► that's going on afterward.

00:46:55 ◼   ► A pure press event isn't quite like that.

00:46:57 ◼   ► So yeah, you maybe chat with some of the people

00:47:00 ◼   ► you know in the media or some developers you run into

00:47:03 ◼   ► and share some thoughts about it.

00:47:05 ◼   ► Back when I was doing Macworld,

00:47:06 ◼   ► then we had multiple people there.

00:47:08 ◼   ► There would also be some like, who's doing what?

00:47:10 ◼   ► Where are we going?

00:47:11 ◼   ► Are we gonna meet at back of the office?

00:47:12 ◼   ► So we're gonna do a podcast, all that sort of thing.

00:47:14 ◼   ► - Like a one, two, three break.

00:47:17 ◼   ► Go that one.

00:47:18 ◼   ► - So as a solo person, I don't have to worry about

00:47:21 ◼   ► that kind of game planning stuff.

00:47:24 ◼   ► But yeah, so, and then eventually you kind of wander out.

00:47:27 ◼   ► And if you've got a briefing with Apple PR,

00:47:29 ◼   ► you might hang around and wait to be called into the back

00:47:32 ◼   ► to get a briefing.

00:47:33 ◼   ► And if you don't have a briefing,

00:47:35 ◼   ► then you may be chat with developers

00:47:37 ◼   ► and media people that you see.

00:47:39 ◼   ► But, you know, eventually you realize that, you know,

00:47:42 ◼   ► one, you need to get yourself some lunch,

00:47:44 ◼   ► and two, you probably got a half a dozen stories to write.

00:47:46 ◼   ► And, you know, you go downstairs and you head out.

00:47:49 ◼   ► And those badges are only good for the keynote.

00:47:52 ◼   ► Sometimes they let press have conference badges

00:47:56 ◼   ► to hang out for the week,

00:47:57 ◼   ► and I've had that the last few years,

00:47:58 ◼   ► but I don't think that's happening this year,

00:48:00 ◼   ► at least not for me.

00:48:01 ◼   ► So, and I wasn't gonna buy one.

00:48:03 ◼   ► I didn't even put in for that.

00:48:05 ◼   ► So, then you leave, and this year will be different

00:48:09 ◼   ► because there are people around and there's Alt-Conf

00:48:11 ◼   ► and there's layers

00:48:13 ◼   ► and there's a lot of other stuff going on too.

00:48:15 ◼   ► I'll be looking for you, Myke,

00:48:17 ◼   ► so that we can do our special post-keynote edition of Upgrade.

00:48:20 ◼   ► - I'll be hiding.

00:48:21 ◼   ► I'll probably be at Blue Bottle or something.

00:48:24 ◼   ► I don't know where I'm gonna be.

00:48:26 ◼   ► I haven't decided where I'm gonna watch the keynote yet.

00:48:30 ◼   ► I should probably make that decision.

00:48:31 ◼   ► - The Relay Hotel Suite.

00:48:33 ◼   ► - Well, I really enjoyed last year.

00:48:38 ◼   ► was a guy in English and Singleton, so Luke and everybody, put on an event at Twitter's office

00:48:45 ◼   ► to watch the keynote. And I really really enjoyed watching it in a room with people.

00:48:52 ◼   ► So I know that Release Notes and Alt Conf are doing a thing where they're going to be showing

00:49:02 ◼   ► lot of sessions and the keynote for free I believe in the alt-comp venue.

00:49:08 ◼   ► So I might do that, I don't know yet. Because for example if it ends up

00:49:14 ◼   ► being like 10 or 15 friends can get into one hotel suite or whatever and watch it

00:49:19 ◼   ► then that might be perfectly fine. But I'll see. I just haven't really put

00:49:24 ◼   ► that thought into it yet but I should probably make that decision soon enough.

00:49:29 ◼   ► Let's take a break and then I want to actually talk to you about what you

00:49:33 ◼   ► think is gonna happen on Monday. Excellent. I especially want to talk to

00:49:37 ◼   ► you about OS X. Alright. This week's episode is brought to you by Igloo, the

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00:52:07 ◼   ► So I've had this topic in the document for a couple of weeks because I'm interested in

00:52:12 ◼   ► getting your thoughts on OS X and one of the reasons I want to talk to you about this is

00:52:17 ◼   ► I listen to lots of shows that focus on iOS.

00:52:19 ◼   ► I have other shows that focus on iOS.

00:52:21 ◼   ► Yeah.

00:52:22 ◼   ► But I really believe that you are probably a person that is in a good place to think

00:52:27 ◼   ► about where OS X is going.

00:52:30 ◼   ► Remember the Mac, Myke?

00:52:31 ◼   ► Remember that?

00:52:32 ◼   ► I have no idea what you're talking about.

00:52:35 ◼   ► So do you think that we're going to see OS X 10.11 at WWDC?

00:52:41 ◼   ► I think we'll see a new version of OS X.

00:52:43 ◼   ► I mean, I wrote that piece on Macworld about how I feel like it's a great time for them

00:52:48 ◼   ► to drop the OS X branding and start calling it Mac OS again, and then they can make it

00:52:54 ◼   ► 11.0.

00:52:55 ◼   ► And, you know, but I do think there'll be a new version of OS X, and that'll have a

00:52:59 ◼   ► California location as a code name or marketing name or whatever they want to call it.

00:53:04 ◼   ► I do think that'll happen.

00:53:05 ◼   ► I think that they—I would be shocked if they said, "Yeah, we're not gonna—we're

00:53:09 ◼   ► just gonna keep on iterating on Yosemite for another year."

00:53:12 ◼   ► It wouldn't surprise me if they called it 1011, it wouldn't surprise me if they called

00:53:15 ◼   ► it 11.0, it wouldn't surprise me if they called it 1015, honestly, it wouldn't surprise me.

00:53:23 ◼   ► I'm still hedging my bets eventually for it to be Apple OS, because that just feels like

00:53:30 ◼   ► that's the route that current Apple is, like moving away from i and stuff.

00:53:35 ◼   ► It sounds horrible, but that's...

00:53:36 ◼   ► But the iMac is not going to become the Mac and the iPhone is not going to become the

00:53:39 ◼   ► Apple phone. It's just, it's, I, as they're stuck with the I on some of their top level

00:53:44 ◼   ► products. So I, I, I don't believe that will happen, but you know, shine on you crazy diamond.

00:53:51 ◼   ► You know me. If I throw enough crazy things out there, one of them is going to stick one

00:53:55 ◼   ► day. Well, I know I just listed all of all the possibilities that I think will happen.

00:53:58 ◼   ► So I'll be able to point back and say, see, I mentioned that one. I told you that was

00:54:03 ◼   ► one of the possibilities. Yes, it'll all explode or won't. I got that one

00:54:09 ◼   ► right because it'll be one of those. Very, very binary.

00:54:12 ◼   ► What do you think is really likely to come to OS X? I find it harder and

00:54:19 ◼   ► harder these days to think of what OS X features could be. The one that I

00:54:23 ◼   ► always thought are, you know, a redesign. And they've done that now.

00:54:29 ◼   ► Well, the rumors are that they're gonna bring the San Francisco font that's in the

00:54:31 ◼   ► Apple Watch, and that's going to unify across the Apple Watch and iOS and Mac

00:54:35 ◼   ► OS. So that's one. They have gone, you know, Yosemite did a lot, and

00:54:42 ◼   ► they changed the font to Helvetica Nolia, but this will sort of

00:54:47 ◼   ► change the typeface again and have it be more unified across Apple's product

00:54:52 ◼   ► line. So that's a thing. That's a really minor thing, but that's a thing. I think

00:54:55 ◼   ► there's a lot of—not to get back to the boring bug fixes and stability, but

00:55:00 ◼   ► But keeping things in step with iOS and having the iOS and Mac OS and Apple Watch, frankly,

00:55:08 ◼   ► integration all just kind of have all the handoff stuff, have all the inter-device communications

00:55:12 ◼   ► work better with one another, fix a lot of bugs, support whatever new initiatives that

00:55:18 ◼   ► Apple's got that will be on the phone and the watch and the iPad in the future.

00:55:23 ◼   ► I think all of that comes into play.

00:55:27 ◼   ► I agree that there's not a lot of low-hanging fruit.

00:55:32 ◼   ► I mean, I wrote a piece,

00:55:34 ◼   ► my column on Macworld last week was about,

00:55:39 ◼   ► I was just gonna write a link about this rumor that Apple,

00:55:42 ◼   ► or this, it was like a patent report of Apple

00:55:44 ◼   ► doing a keyboard that had touched the keys

00:55:46 ◼   ► or are itself a track pad.

00:55:49 ◼   ► So you don't necessarily need a track pad.

00:55:50 ◼   ► You just move your finger across the keys

00:55:52 ◼   ► and you move your cursor.

00:55:53 ◼   ► And it ended up being this totally different article

00:55:57 ◼   ► that was essentially saying,

00:55:59 ◼   ► as I was writing it, I was realizing that the Mac now

00:56:06 ◼   ► has this weird position for Apple,

00:56:07 ◼   ► where I don't think the best and brightest at Apple

00:56:11 ◼   ► are spending huge amounts of time looking at the Mac

00:56:14 ◼   ► and saying, "What can we do on the Mac

00:56:17 ◼   ► to revolutionize the PC in the next 15 years

00:56:21 ◼   ► of the existence of the personal computer?"

00:56:23 ◼   ► Because in some ways, a lot of those ideas

00:56:27 ◼   ► make the Mac not the Mac anymore.

00:56:29 ◼   ► Makes the Mac into something else,

00:56:30 ◼   ► probably an iPad, essentially.

00:56:33 ◼   ► And they already have an iPad.

00:56:34 ◼   ► They already have iOS.

00:56:35 ◼   ► One of the great factors in the popularity and success

00:56:40 ◼   ► of the Mac as a product at this point in its life, in 2015,

00:56:44 ◼   ► is that it is a traditional computer, right?

00:56:48 ◼   ► It's like a laptop with a keyboard and a screen.

00:56:51 ◼   ► It has a pointer that you use, you move around, a cursor.

00:56:54 ◼   ► It's got all the classic kind of software on it.

00:56:56 ◼   ► It has that, that paradigm is strong on the Mac.

00:57:00 ◼   ► And I feel like that is great.

00:57:02 ◼   ► I am a Mac user and I love my Mac

00:57:04 ◼   ► and I couldn't survive without it, I think.

00:57:07 ◼   ► But, you know, if you put too much innovation into it,

00:57:11 ◼   ► you've broken the metaphor.

00:57:12 ◼   ► And the reason people want this product

00:57:14 ◼   ► is that it's like it is.

00:57:16 ◼   ► It, you know, it is what it is.

00:57:18 ◼   ► It's a computer.

00:57:20 ◼   ► And so a lot of the real innovation that Apple's doing

00:57:24 ◼   ► in terms of like what's the computer of the future gonna be

00:57:27 ◼   ► is happening on iOS, it's not happening on the Mac.

00:57:29 ◼   ► So that puts OS X in a difficult position

00:57:33 ◼   ► because while they wanna evolve the hardware

00:57:35 ◼   ► and the software on the Mac,

00:57:36 ◼   ► they can only do it to a certain point.

00:57:38 ◼   ► Because beyond that point,

00:57:40 ◼   ► what's the point of even having a Mac?

00:57:41 ◼   ► If it's totally gonna be radically different,

00:57:44 ◼   ► then it's eliminating the number one appeal of this product,

00:57:48 ◼   ► which is that it's a computer,

00:57:50 ◼   ► that it works like we expect a computer to,

00:57:51 ◼   ► and it's got more power,

00:57:53 ◼   ► but it also has that interface that we're used to.

00:57:56 ◼   ► So I think it's tough.

00:57:58 ◼   ► I think it's really tough for them to push the platform,

00:58:01 ◼   ► which is why I think the last few years,

00:58:03 ◼   ► what OS X development has largely been about

00:58:06 ◼   ► is integration with Apple's other devices,

00:58:09 ◼   ► like Handoff and things like that,

00:58:10 ◼   ► which when they work are spectacular,

00:58:13 ◼   ► but they don't work as well as they should.

00:58:15 ◼   ► And so I feel like the more they can do with that,

00:58:17 ◼   ► Given how the Mac App Store is not super exciting,

00:58:20 ◼   ► maybe the more that they can do in terms of continuing

00:58:22 ◼   ► to improve their apps that come with the system

00:58:27 ◼   ► would be welcome.

00:58:28 ◼   ► I mean, we saw that with photos,

00:58:29 ◼   ► where they're trying to push that forward,

00:58:31 ◼   ► integrate it with their other devices,

00:58:32 ◼   ► integrate it with the cloud,

00:58:33 ◼   ► but also make it a better experience on the Mac.

00:58:35 ◼   ► But I'm with you.

00:58:37 ◼   ► It is harder and harder to come up with things

00:58:39 ◼   ► where you can say, "Oh, I know that feature

00:58:41 ◼   ► "that's just sitting out there that I wish the Mac would do."

00:58:44 ◼   ► It's a lot harder to think of that now.

00:58:47 ◼   ► Now, you know, there's somebody at Apple who's probably paid to sit there and think about

00:58:50 ◼   ► it all the time, and they've probably come up with more ideas than we have, but still,

00:58:56 ◼   ► I think it's a really hard problem because there's a barrier beyond which you can't go.

00:59:01 ◼   ► You can't be too innovative because then it's not the Mac anymore.

00:59:04 ◼   ► Does that make sense?

00:59:07 ◼   ► It does.

00:59:08 ◼   ► What does it take to go to 11?

00:59:09 ◼   ► Well, it's just one louder, isn't it?

00:59:13 ◼   ► When you need that extra thing, go over the cliff.

00:59:15 ◼   ► You just go one louder.

00:59:16 ◼   ► It's 11.

00:59:17 ◼   ► You see what I mean?

00:59:18 ◼   ► Like, at this point, you've gone for OS X for so long, you've gone to OS X to the point

00:59:23 ◼   ► where it doesn't even make sense, like, to call it OS X anymore.

00:59:27 ◼   ► I don't think you need to justify the change to 11.

00:59:29 ◼   ► I think it's a branding change.

00:59:31 ◼   ► I think what it takes to go to 11 is, unless it's something totally crazy, like, "You can

00:59:37 ◼   ► run iOS apps now," or something like that, and every Mac's gonna get a touch screen and

00:59:41 ◼   ► you're gonna run iOS apps, and I don't think that's gonna happen.

00:59:44 ◼   ► So if that one happens, then I'll say, "Look, I didn't say it.

00:59:47 ◼   ► I said it wouldn't.

00:59:48 ◼   ► I was wrong."

00:59:50 ◼   ► I think all it takes—that was what my piece was that I wrote—I think all it takes is

00:59:54 ◼   ► a rebrand.

00:59:55 ◼   ► It's to say, "Look, this is Mac OS, and the number doesn't matter, right?

00:59:59 ◼   ► It's Mac OS Big Sur," or whatever it is, and it's version 11.0, but the number no longer

01:00:05 ◼   ► is part of the branding.

01:00:07 ◼   ► Now that Windows 10 is apparently going to be here forever, because Microsoft may never—they're

01:00:12 ◼   ► going to do with Windows what Apple did with the Mac 15 years ago and just say, "It's 10.

01:00:17 ◼   ► 10's a good number. We're going to stick with 10 for a long time. Maybe it's time for Apple

01:00:22 ◼   ► to just make it not about the number." I feel like that X branding is kind of old. So just

01:00:25 ◼   ► say it's macOS. I think that's what it would take is just saying, "Look, we're not going

01:00:29 ◼   ► to call it OS 10 anymore. We're going to call it macOS. We have iOS. We have macOS. Those

01:00:32 ◼   ► are our two operating systems. And this is, you know, and this is Big Sur," or whatever

01:00:37 ◼   ► it is.

01:00:38 ◼   ► didn't really feel to me like Yosemite was the time to do it. Like, the change

01:00:43 ◼   ► was big enough. Like, I mean, you know, if you look at previous versions, if you

01:00:49 ◼   ► look at Mavericks and you go back to Leopard and Lion, it doesn't look

01:00:53 ◼   ► massively different. Like, it's just different enough. Like, everything's still

01:00:58 ◼   ► there where it was, you know, but it just looks different. But I feel like

01:01:02 ◼   ► considering how long it had been, like, small changes is the biggest UI change

01:01:07 ◼   ► that there's been for a long time. I wonder why they didn't do it then,

01:01:12 ◼   ► especially because this was 10 10, which is just like so crazy.

01:01:17 ◼   ► We don't, we don't, I, there are a lot of mysteries of Apple OS marketing. This is,

01:01:22 ◼   ► this is another thing I mentioned and that story is, I wonder about why they

01:01:26 ◼   ► changed the name from Mac OS 10 to OS 10 and dropped the Mac from it. I'm unclear

01:01:32 ◼   ► whether they felt like some lawyer said, "Well, they may affect your trademark," or

01:01:36 ◼   ► or whether there was a software executive who said, "This is all part of our grand plan,

01:01:41 ◼   ► that we're going to unify the operating systems," but that software executive may be financing

01:01:46 ◼   ► Broadway shows instead now. I don't know. And so there are great mysteries about why

01:01:54 ◼   ► Apple has done what it's done in the past, and maybe they just weren't ready to make

01:01:59 ◼   ► that change. But I agree, it is sort of increasingly ludicrous that this thing is named 10.11, 10.12.

01:02:05 ◼   ► On the other hand, maybe it doesn't matter

01:02:07 ◼   ► 'cause it's not, you know, it's just software versioning.

01:02:10 ◼   ► It's not a decimal, it's just software versioning.

01:02:12 ◼   ► It could go 10.90 and nobody would care,

01:02:16 ◼   ► but I just don't understand why 10 is a thing

01:02:18 ◼   ► that needs to be a marketing point with a big X.

01:02:21 ◼   ► It feels very last decade, maybe even very 20th century.

01:02:24 ◼   ► It's totally extreme operating system.

01:02:26 ◼   ► It made a lot of sense in 2000.

01:02:28 ◼   ► I'm not sure it makes sense in 2015.

01:02:30 ◼   ► And since what Apple has is two platforms,

01:02:33 ◼   ► They have the iPhone and pad platform,

01:02:37 ◼   ► and they've got the MacBook, iMac,

01:02:41 ◼   ► you know, MacBook Pro, Mac Pro,

01:02:43 ◼   ► they've got the Mac platform.

01:02:45 ◼   ► Calling it iOS and macOS,

01:02:47 ◼   ► if you're not gonna merge them together,

01:02:49 ◼   ► seems to be a much better approach,

01:02:50 ◼   ► and you get out from under the X.

01:02:52 ◼   ► - I agree with that. - And you just go back to Mac.

01:02:53 ◼   ► So I'm a real believer in that.

01:02:55 ◼   ► I don't know if they'll ever do that.

01:02:57 ◼   ► And they're probably, if anybody at Apple's listening to me,

01:03:00 ◼   ► they're probably like, yeah,

01:03:00 ◼   ► that guy has no idea what he's talking about,

01:03:02 ◼   ► because something that we don't see.

01:03:05 ◼   ► But I would just, I think 10 just needs to come out

01:03:07 ◼   ► of the equation and just let's not,

01:03:09 ◼   ► and then you can increment it to 11 if you want to

01:03:11 ◼   ► and nobody cares.

01:03:12 ◼   ► - I do think it's, yeah, I get what you mean

01:03:17 ◼   ► about like the version numbering,

01:03:18 ◼   ► like it is just version numbering,

01:03:20 ◼   ► but I think version numbering is a bit more awkward

01:03:23 ◼   ► when the name of your product is also a number.

01:03:26 ◼   ► - I agree, OS 10.10 is crazy.

01:03:30 ◼   ► Like if it was called OS X, if that was how it was said,

01:03:35 ◼   ► it would be easier to accept the numbers, I think.

01:03:38 ◼   ► - Right, but it's not, it's OS X.

01:03:39 ◼   ► And so the name of the product is OS X 10.10,

01:03:42 ◼   ► unless you use the marketing name, which is Yosemite,

01:03:44 ◼   ► which is what we all should do.

01:03:46 ◼   ► Only computer nerds really care about the version number,

01:03:49 ◼   ► except when you go to the about box

01:03:51 ◼   ► and you're doing tech support and you say,

01:03:53 ◼   ► "What version do you have?"

01:03:54 ◼   ► And it says, "Well, I have Yosemite."

01:03:54 ◼   ► "No, I need the version number."

01:03:56 ◼   ► And it's like, "Well, it's 10.10.2."

01:03:57 ◼   ► Like, "Oh, well, you need to update to 10.10.3

01:04:00 ◼   ► because X. So, or 10. How's that pronounced? Has that letter pronounced? So I don't know.

01:04:07 ◼   ► It's still there. You can't make it disappear even though normal people don't care about

01:04:12 ◼   ► it. It still has to be there for tech support and things like that. But it shouldn't matter.

01:04:16 ◼   ► I just think, yeah, it could go on forever and I'd be okay with it, but I just think

01:04:20 ◼   ► that the X10 branding is just kind of old and unnecessary. And the Mac is what it is.

01:04:26 ◼   ► It's all about the Mac.

01:04:28 ◼   ► I think OS X was a name when they stripped the Mac out of it,

01:04:32 ◼   ► when they were visualizing that other devices

01:04:34 ◼   ► that weren't Macs would run OS X.

01:04:36 ◼   ► But that's not like Apple TV ran OS X,

01:04:40 ◼   ► and it really was based on the Mac version originally

01:04:42 ◼   ► until they did the new generation little black box

01:04:45 ◼   ► that ran on a version of iOS.

01:04:47 ◼   ► I just feel like you got watchOS, you got iOS,

01:04:50 ◼   ► you got Mac OS. Just call it what it is.

01:04:53 ◼   ► There's never going to be another device

01:04:55 ◼   ► that isn't a Mac that runs Mac OS.

01:04:56 ◼   ► So just call it that.

01:04:58 ◼   ► I have one more question, and then I

01:05:01 ◼   ► want to do a quick fire round with you.

01:05:03 ◼   ► All right.

01:05:04 ◼   ► So what are your review plans for OS X currently?

01:05:07 ◼   ► What do you think you will want to do with that?

01:05:09 ◼   ► Because there is a big hole to fill.

01:05:11 ◼   ► Yeah, I'm still thinking about it.

01:05:12 ◼   ► I mean, in the past, what I've written

01:05:14 ◼   ► is the 3,000 or 4,000 word review of OS X.

01:05:17 ◼   ► And I'm open to that.

01:05:19 ◼   ► At one point, I talked to Susie at Macworld

01:05:21 ◼   ► about the possibility.

01:05:22 ◼   ► I mean, just writing that again, except this time,

01:05:24 ◼   ► you know, it would be something they would pay me for,

01:05:27 ◼   ► as opposed to it being part of my job as a salaried employee.

01:05:29 ◼   ► So that might happen, you know, and the Mac will review

01:05:32 ◼   ► in the, you know, four or five thousand word,

01:05:34 ◼   ► that's what I call that, that's the sweet spot

01:05:37 ◼   ► where there'll be a group of people

01:05:39 ◼   ► who think that's way too many words

01:05:41 ◼   ► to spend on an operating system,

01:05:42 ◼   ► and there'll be another group of people

01:05:43 ◼   ► who think it's way too few words,

01:05:44 ◼   ► but I think that there's also a group of people

01:05:46 ◼   ► where it's like, yeah, that's about right.

01:05:48 ◼   ► I don't need to read, for some people,

01:05:49 ◼   ► they don't need to read 25,000 words

01:05:51 ◼   ► about the operating system, 5,000 will do.

01:05:53 ◼   ► It's a nice read, it's substantial,

01:05:54 ◼   ► but it's not kind of just everything but the kitchen sink

01:05:58 ◼   ► and oh, there's the kitchen sink two kind of review,

01:06:01 ◼   ► which is the Syracusean length.

01:06:04 ◼   ► I've also thought about doing something longer.

01:06:07 ◼   ► There is a hole to fill with John Syracuse at GONE.

01:06:09 ◼   ► I've thought about writing something at length

01:06:12 ◼   ► and posting it on Six Colors or making it an e-book or both,

01:06:17 ◼   ► and that's possible.

01:06:20 ◼   ► In the past too, Dan Morin has reviewed iOS for Macworld.

01:06:24 ◼   ► And I got to talk to Dan about how he wants to do that.

01:06:27 ◼   ► Dan too is in the market for freelance writing,

01:06:30 ◼   ► but he and I may try to collaborate

01:06:33 ◼   ► on some stuff in that area.

01:06:34 ◼   ► So nothing is certain yet.

01:06:35 ◼   ► I certainly will review it somewhere in some form,

01:06:38 ◼   ► but I think that after we see the announcements,

01:06:41 ◼   ► I'll have a better idea of where I might do it.

01:06:43 ◼   ► And it's possible that Adam and Tanya Angst

01:06:45 ◼   ► will come to me and say,

01:06:47 ◼   ► "We want you to do something as a take control book."

01:06:50 ◼   ► and I would be open to that too.

01:06:52 ◼   ► So I'm just kind of waiting to see

01:06:55 ◼   ► what the announcements are, what the scope is,

01:06:58 ◼   ► and what my options are.

01:07:00 ◼   ► If Susie comes to me and says,

01:07:02 ◼   ► "We really want you to do it for Macworld,"

01:07:03 ◼   ► then maybe I'll certainly have to make a decision

01:07:06 ◼   ► at that point of if I want to do that or not,

01:07:08 ◼   ► but she may not ask.

01:07:09 ◼   ► So there'll be something.

01:07:10 ◼   ► I will definitely be writing something

01:07:13 ◼   ► with thousands of words about OS X,

01:07:17 ◼   ► assuming that there is a release.

01:07:19 ◼   ► I will definitely do that.

01:07:20 ◼   ► - So I wanna do a rapid fire, quick predictions with you.

01:07:26 ◼   ► - All right.

01:07:27 ◼   ► - So I wanna see where Jason Snell's head is right now,

01:07:30 ◼   ► going into WWDC.

01:07:31 ◼   ► So basically, I've got a bunch of little headings here,

01:07:36 ◼   ► and I wanna see what you think about each.

01:07:38 ◼   ► So this is kind of, what are we gonna see?

01:07:41 ◼   ► What do you think are the main things

01:07:42 ◼   ► we're gonna see in iOS?

01:07:46 ◼   ► iOS, San Francisco font, and I'm gonna say

01:07:51 ◼   ► lock screen complications, a la Apple Watch.

01:07:54 ◼   ► And beyond that, I don't know, improvements to extensions,

01:08:00 ◼   ► improvements to the stuff that was introduced last year.

01:08:05 ◼   ► You know, extending the functionality of extensions

01:08:08 ◼   ► and the today view, maybe getting rid of the concept

01:08:12 ◼   ► of the today view in Notification Center

01:08:15 ◼   ► calling it, you know, calling it something else because it's more about today than it

01:08:19 ◼   ► is about notifications at this point.

01:08:21 ◼   ► Overhaul of Notification Center I'll put on that list too because I think with the Apple

01:08:24 ◼   ► Watch here, notifications in general could probably be handled better and be more granular

01:08:31 ◼   ► and I think Notification Center has gotten kind of too big to be managed right now.

01:08:37 ◼   ► Do you think we're gonna see any specific improvements to the iPad?

01:08:44 ◼   ► My gut feeling—the old Apple, I would say, no, absolutely not, because if they've got

01:08:48 ◼   ► a new iPad coming, they'll announce those improvements then.

01:08:53 ◼   ► My gut feeling now is they may announce that iOS 9 on the iPad has split screen or some

01:09:00 ◼   ► other kind of weird format like that in order to—and it works on the current iPads.

01:09:05 ◼   ► could totally build it for the current iPads, and everybody will be like, "This seems somewhat

01:09:10 ◼   ► impractical for the current iPads," because the story is that there will be a big iPad

01:09:14 ◼   ► that will also be out. Something like that could totally happen. So I'd say probably

01:09:19 ◼   ► not, but it's possible that you might see something that is kind of applicable to the

01:09:26 ◼   ► current iPads, but also points the way toward developments in the iPad world in the fall.

01:09:31 ◼   ► But I'd say the old Apple would probably have held off and maybe been coy in saying, "We've

01:09:36 ◼   ► added some new behaviors like they did with the iPhone 6," where it's like, "Well, you

01:09:40 ◼   ► know, dynamic app design and larger screen sizes," not that there are any larger screen

01:09:46 ◼   ► sizes coming.

01:09:47 ◼   ► You usually see hints of that.

01:09:49 ◼   ► I think we'll see hints of what's going to happen with the iPad, assuming something is.

01:09:53 ◼   ► But you know, newfangled Apple might just go out and say, "This is a feature we're going

01:09:58 ◼   ► to add, not and not pre-announce the hardware, but you know, let us all kind of

01:10:02 ◼   ► go "I see what they're doing there." We'll see.

01:10:07 ◼   ► HomeKit. Yes, lots. HomeKit was essentially a pre-announcement. They

01:10:13 ◼   ► needed a year to prime the pump. I wrote about that for iMore a

01:10:19 ◼   ► week or two ago. It's taken a year. They'll probably have the first HomeKit

01:10:24 ◼   ► products that are shipping to talk about at WWDC because they're supposed to

01:10:28 ◼   ► start really shipping in June. It took a year for HomeKit stuff to ship, so I think

01:10:32 ◼   ► they will tell the HomeKit story and that there will be more HomeKit demos

01:10:36 ◼   ► whether it's apps that are built around HomeKit or whether it's a home app in

01:10:40 ◼   ► iOS 9, but yes for sure HomeKit's gonna be a thing that they're gonna talk about

01:10:45 ◼   ► because it's really, you know, it's the missed promise of last year's keynote

01:10:50 ◼   ► where they had to announce it because they needed to get the ball rolling, but it's taken

01:10:55 ◼   ► a year for that ball to start rolling.

01:10:58 ◼   ► WatchOS.

01:10:59 ◼   ► Yes, absolutely. I think we're going to get a WatchOS 2.0 announcement or 1.5 or whatever

01:11:05 ◼   ► they want to call them. Again, version numbers, who cares? But I think there'll be a new WatchOS

01:11:09 ◼   ► beta that will be available to developers then or shortly thereafter, and an app kit

01:11:17 ◼   ► for native app development on watchOS.

01:11:19 ◼   ► I do think that that's coming.

01:11:21 ◼   ► Maybe they'll call it 1.1.

01:11:22 ◼   ► I don't know whether they'll call it 2.0 or not.

01:11:24 ◼   ► But yes, I think the app development story

01:11:27 ◼   ► that has been promised for a long time

01:11:29 ◼   ► about the Apple Watch, we'll hear about it at WWDC.

01:11:33 ◼   ► - Will we hear or see more about Swift at WWDC?

01:11:38 ◼   ► - I think we will hear more about Swift.

01:11:40 ◼   ► It may or may not be in the keynote.

01:11:42 ◼   ► They may mention, since it's a developer keynote,

01:11:44 ◼   ► they'll probably mention Swift in the keynote and say,

01:11:47 ◼   ► And we've done a lot more and there's a new spec

01:11:49 ◼   ► and it's great and everybody loves it

01:11:51 ◼   ► and you can find out more in a later session.

01:11:53 ◼   ► I doubt we will go into a lot of detail

01:11:55 ◼   ► about Swift at the keynote.

01:11:56 ◼   ► I could be wrong, but I doubt it.

01:11:57 ◼   ► But I do think they'll mention it

01:11:59 ◼   ► because it'll give opportunity for developers

01:12:02 ◼   ► to cheer about Swift and for them to thank the developers

01:12:05 ◼   ► for their interest in Swift and do a very brief sort of like,

01:12:09 ◼   ► here's where we're going with Swift,

01:12:10 ◼   ► we're adding all these new things, find out about it later.

01:12:13 ◼   ► And then, you know, the nitty gritty will happen

01:12:16 ◼   ► outside the keynote where they'll, I would imagine,

01:12:19 ◼   ► have a lot more about what they've learned

01:12:21 ◼   ► and any changes that they're making to the format.

01:12:24 ◼   ► - CarPlay.

01:12:27 ◼   ► - I'm on the fence about that one.

01:12:29 ◼   ► Yes, I think it has to be because iOS 9

01:12:35 ◼   ► will have to have improvements to CarPlay

01:12:36 ◼   ► because CarPlay desperately needs improvements.

01:12:38 ◼   ► And there've been some rumors about them updating CarPlay

01:12:41 ◼   ► to have Bluetooth and not just by wire support

01:12:44 ◼   ► and all of that.

01:12:45 ◼   ► So I think there'll be CarPlay.

01:12:46 ◼   ► Will it be in a keynote? I don't know. It depends on how good they feel about it. Having tested

01:12:51 ◼   ► CarPlay, I don't think the current version is anything Apple would be proud about, but maybe

01:12:57 ◼   ► a new version is. Apple TV? I hope so. I hope this is when we get the new hardware and developer

01:13:06 ◼   ► story for Apple TV. All the rumors say that that may actually happen. I will continue to hope,

01:13:13 ◼   ► as I have for the last three years that that will finally happen.

01:13:17 ◼   ► Will we see announcements of a music streaming service?

01:13:22 ◼   ► Uhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh

01:13:22 ◼   ► - Uh...

01:13:25 ◼   ► (inhales)

01:13:28 ◼   ► I don't know.

01:13:28 ◼   ► - Heavily rumored. - I don't know.

01:13:29 ◼   ► - Heavily rumored.

01:13:30 ◼   ► Even as we're recording today,

01:13:31 ◼   ► The Verge is posting new reports apparently.

01:13:34 ◼   ► - Yeah, well, you know,

01:13:36 ◼   ► if they're gonna integrate it into the operating system,

01:13:38 ◼   ► then this would be the time to announce it.

01:13:41 ◼   ► I could also see them, yeah,

01:13:43 ◼   ► it's probably gonna be something

01:13:44 ◼   ► where they announce that it's happening,

01:13:45 ◼   ► and then it, but it's gonna launch later.

01:13:47 ◼   ► But who knows?

01:13:48 ◼   ► They could just release it on iOS 8

01:13:51 ◼   ► with an update as well.

01:13:52 ◼   ► - The rumor is announced now releasing in a few weeks time.

01:13:57 ◼   ► - Yeah, all right.

01:13:58 ◼   ► - That's the kind of the rumors.

01:14:00 ◼   ► - Who am I to deny the rumor?

01:14:01 ◼   ► I mean, I don't feel like they have to do it

01:14:04 ◼   ► other than the fact that the clock has been ticking

01:14:05 ◼   ► for so long since the Beats acquisition.

01:14:07 ◼   ► - Hey, before that.

01:14:10 ◼   ► - It would be great to see,

01:14:11 ◼   ► and actually to go back to Mac predictions

01:14:16 ◼   ► and what's going on with OS X,

01:14:18 ◼   ► a streaming service app or better streaming service integration in iTunes, this might

01:14:24 ◼   ► be a good opportunity to revamp iTunes too as a part of this.

01:14:30 ◼   ► Don't dangle that dream in front of me, Jason.

01:14:33 ◼   ► I know, I know.

01:14:35 ◼   ► Will we see any hardware announcements at WWDC this year?

01:14:39 ◼   ► I'm going to say yes because I think the Apple TV thing is going to happen.

01:14:43 ◼   ► It's also possible that they might, you know, mention Mac Pro update or something like that.

01:14:47 ◼   ► things can happen too. But I think if we're banking on this Apple TV thing finally happening

01:14:54 ◼   ► because there's a developer story around it, then that seems to me to be the most likely.

01:14:58 ◼   ► In terms of Apple hardware, there will probably be some like HomeKit announcements and support

01:15:03 ◼   ► for CarPlay announcements, but that's not what we're really talking about.

01:15:06 ◼   ► Will we're going to see anybody new on stage, do you think?

01:15:11 ◼   ► I hope so. I hope so. Apple's keynotes have had have been a largely a parade of middle-aged

01:15:18 ◼   ► white men for the past forever.

01:15:21 ◼   ► Which I meant to say earlier, hand it to Google.

01:15:24 ◼   ► Yeah, Google, you know, Google has diversity in their ranks and diversity on their stage.

01:15:33 ◼   ► I don't know enough about Apple to know how diverse their ranks are. I know enough of

01:15:38 ◼   ► what I've seen on stage to see that there's not a lot of diversity on the stage.

01:15:43 ◼   ► And although I appreciate them bringing Christy Turlington on stage last time, she doesn't

01:15:49 ◼   ► work in Apple.

01:15:51 ◼   ► And although she does admirable charity work now, she's famous because she's a supermodel

01:15:56 ◼   ► or was a supermodel.

01:15:59 ◼   ► Apple's got to do better.

01:16:01 ◼   ► Now I think that the representation in WWDC panels and events, the presentations, has

01:16:08 ◼   ► actually been much better.

01:16:10 ◼   ► I've seen more racial diversity and gender diversity at WWDC, so those people are there,

01:16:18 ◼   ► at least some of those people are there, it would be nice to see more diversity on the

01:16:21 ◼   ► stage.

01:16:22 ◼   ► I know we've got our cast of characters that are the Apple executives, but I think they

01:16:28 ◼   ► need to up their game there. Any chance that we will see the chief design officer?

01:16:34 ◼   ► No. You still don't think so? It seems that Johnny and Angela Arendt don't want to be

01:16:41 ◼   ► on stage. That's my guess. It seems to me. There was part of me that was wondering like,

01:16:46 ◼   ► you know, that was maybe one of Tim's demands. I wonder if Angela Arendt's, you know, I'd

01:16:52 ◼   ► like to see her and maybe she just does not do stage presentations but they always do

01:16:56 ◼   ► the CEO does the retail update, and that would be a really easy way to get to say, "I want

01:17:00 ◼   ► to introduce Angela Ahrendts, who's going to tell you about what we're doing in retail."

01:17:06 ◼   ► That would be a pretty good win right there if they would do that, because that's a prominent

01:17:11 ◼   ► woman executive on the management team at Apple.

01:17:14 ◼   ► The only.

01:17:15 ◼   ► Yeah, right?

01:17:16 ◼   ► But she's got things to talk about.

01:17:18 ◼   ► And in fact, I think she's doing a really good job.

01:17:20 ◼   ► Just I know we've run along with the show, but I went to the Apple store yesterday because

01:17:24 ◼   ► my wife, it's been two years since she bought her iPhone 5, so she got an iPhone 6. It's

01:17:29 ◼   ► very exciting. Myke was wrong. I actually tried to push her to the iPhone 6 Plus, Myke.

01:17:34 ◼   ► I said, you know, you keep it in your purse most of the time, and then when you take it

01:17:39 ◼   ► out you're gonna have the bigger screen and all of that, and she held that iPhone 6 Plus,

01:17:43 ◼   ► and she was like, yeah, no. It's too much.

01:17:44 ◼   ► - You should have waited to have this conversation until I came.

01:17:48 ◼   ► - No, it's too late.

01:17:49 ◼   ► - And then I did extoll the real virtues of the 6 Plus.

01:17:52 ◼   ► - No, I was in there for you.

01:17:53 ◼   ► I was sort of playing the part of mic

01:17:55 ◼   ► and explaining the virtues of the iPhone 6 Plus.

01:17:57 ◼   ► But anyway, we went and it was a really great experience.

01:18:01 ◼   ► The only things that were bad about it

01:18:03 ◼   ► were involving the carrier,

01:18:04 ◼   ► which is the carrier stuff in the US is a complete mess.

01:18:07 ◼   ► AT&T is trying to move to a little more sane approach

01:18:13 ◼   ► where they have these plans that are explicitly,

01:18:16 ◼   ► basically financing plans for your phone subsidy.

01:18:21 ◼   ► Instead of it being hidden in your bill, they just say,

01:18:23 ◼   ► look, you can, for two years, you pay off your phone,

01:18:26 ◼   ► and then it's paid off and you stop paying.

01:18:28 ◼   ► That's a move forward, but we still had a moment

01:18:30 ◼   ► where I would have rather just paid the full price

01:18:33 ◼   ► unsubsidized for the phone, but it was unclear to me

01:18:36 ◼   ► whether our plan would actually go down if we did that,

01:18:40 ◼   ► or whether they'd keep charging us the rate

01:18:42 ◼   ► as if we were paying a subsidy,

01:18:44 ◼   ► which would totally be like AT&T to do.

01:18:47 ◼   ► And the guy, at one point, the guy at the Apple store

01:18:48 ◼   ► was like, "Yeah, that's complicated enough

01:18:51 ◼   ► that you need to talk to AT&T about.

01:18:52 ◼   ► I can't answer that."

01:18:53 ◼   ► But he answered so many questions.

01:18:55 ◼   ► I was very impressed because I feel like

01:18:56 ◼   ► the last couple of years at the Apple Store,

01:18:58 ◼   ► with Ron Johnson gone, whether that was connected or not,

01:19:02 ◼   ► that service has declined where it's like,

01:19:04 ◼   ► it's harder to get a person,

01:19:06 ◼   ► it's harder to get straight answers,

01:19:08 ◼   ► you have to wait, there's confusion.

01:19:11 ◼   ► And with the Apple Watch stuff,

01:19:13 ◼   ► and then with this experience upgrading her phone,

01:19:15 ◼   ► I felt like my last two experiences at the Apple store have been really good.

01:19:21 ◼   ► And I wonder if this is Angela Ahrendts at work kind of like fixing some stuff that was

01:19:28 ◼   ► that was drifting in the Apple retail experience.

01:19:30 ◼   ► I don't know.

01:19:31 ◼   ► I only have those two anecdotes, but they both been very good interactions with Apple

01:19:36 ◼   ► store employees.

01:19:37 ◼   ► And you know, it was, we talked to the guy, he walked us through, he asked us what model

01:19:41 ◼   ► we wanted that got radioed to the back.

01:19:43 ◼   ► He walked us through everything else we needed to know.

01:19:46 ◼   ► Guy appears with the phone from the back and says,

01:19:48 ◼   ► "Here's your phone."

01:19:50 ◼   ► Set it up. It was -- Yeah.

01:19:51 ◼   ► I was very impressed.

01:19:52 ◼   ► And I've had much less impressive interactions

01:19:54 ◼   ► the last couple of years in the Apple Store,

01:19:56 ◼   ► but not my last few.

01:19:59 ◼   ► -Time for Ask Upgrade. -I think it is.

01:20:02 ◼   ► -Jason, who brings Ask Upgrade to us this week?

01:20:05 ◼   ► -Ask Upgrade is brought to us as usual, I think, at this point,

01:20:09 ◼   ► by our good friends at MailRoute. MailRoute is a service. I've talked about them many

01:20:16 ◼   ► times before. They live in the cloud. They're like cloud people. They actually live in the

01:20:20 ◼   ► cloud. They're made of clouds. And this is what they do. They intercept... Imagine...

01:20:25 ◼   ► Okay, metaphor time, Myke. Are you ready?

01:20:27 ◼   ► \ \

01:20:28 ◼   ► \ \

01:20:29 ◼   ► \ \

01:20:30 ◼   ► \ \

01:20:31 ◼   ► \ \

01:20:32 ◼   ► \ \

01:20:33 ◼   ► \ \

01:20:34 ◼   ► \ \

01:20:35 ◼   ► \ \

01:20:36 ◼   ► \ \

01:20:37 ◼   ► \ \

01:20:38 ◼   ► good and some of it is bad. They're the ones that land with a parachute and you

01:20:42 ◼   ► get them and you go "yay I got email" and then the ones that come in like a

01:20:45 ◼   ► meteorite and they hit you and it's spam. You're like "ow ow spam I hate spam."

01:20:49 ◼   ► Well the mail route is that protective layer. It goes above you. It lives in the

01:20:52 ◼   ► cloud. It is a cloud and it searches through the stuff that's coming at you

01:20:57 ◼   ► and says "that's good, that's good, that's bad, that's good, that's bad." Bad stuff is

01:21:01 ◼   ► intercepted. It's put away in a little holding bin, perhaps inside the cloud

01:21:05 ◼   ► somewhere, I don't know. And you never see it. So this is what mail route is. Mail route

01:21:10 ◼   ► is a service that puts itself between you and the big bad internet. Your mail server

01:21:14 ◼   ► is protected. Good mail gets delivered to you. Bad mail never sees your front door.

01:21:19 ◼   ► It's kept safe and secure in mail route's cloud. So you don't have to install any special

01:21:25 ◼   ► hardware or software. You don't have to update the software in order to get new features.

01:21:29 ◼   ► It all happens at mail route. Mail route gets your mail, sorts it, and delivers it. It's

01:21:33 ◼   ► easy to set up, you point your MX record for your domain at mail route. That basically

01:21:39 ◼   ► says all mail, go to mail route first. Then mail route delivers it to your server. So

01:21:43 ◼   ► super simple, it's reliable, it's trusted by large institutions like universities and

01:21:47 ◼   ► corporations. It's easy for desktop users to use. And if you're an email administrator

01:21:52 ◼   ► or IT professional, and I know you're out there, they have the tools that you want.

01:21:57 ◼   ► They've got an API so you can manage accounts on the service easily so that you can keep

01:22:01 ◼   ► your local email accounts in sync with the email addresses up at MailWrap.

01:22:07 ◼   ► And it supports all the buzzwords, including some of our favorites, like LDAP, Active Directory,

01:22:11 ◼   ► TLS, mailbagging.

01:22:12 ◼   ► Mailbagging, sir?

01:22:13 ◼   ► Mailbagging, indeed, sir.

01:22:14 ◼   ► Oh, yes, sir.

01:22:15 ◼   ► Outbound relay, everything you'd want from people handling your mail, and you can try

01:22:20 ◼   ► it all out for free.

01:22:21 ◼   ► There's a risk-free trial, no credit card necessary.

01:22:24 ◼   ► You sign up, change those domain records, and that's it.

01:22:27 ◼   ► Your server is completely protected, so you should give it a try.

01:22:30 ◼   ► everybody who listens to Upgrade can get a 10% off lifetime discount at MailRoute by

01:22:35 ◼   ► going to mailroute.net/upgrade. That's mailroute.net/upgrade. So thank you to MailRoute for your support of

01:22:42 ◼   ► Upgrade and #AskUpgrade.

01:22:48 ◼   ► The first Ask Upgrade question this week comes from Chalakan, who asked, "Do you prefer the

01:22:53 ◼   ► regular sport to Jason or the space grey black Apple watch?"

01:22:59 ◼   ► So I got the regular sport with a green band on day one because my friend Sean had an extra

01:23:04 ◼   ► basically and let me buy it from him.

01:23:06 ◼   ► And then I ordered the night of the ordering a the space gray sport with which comes with

01:23:11 ◼   ► the black sport band.

01:23:14 ◼   ► And that that came a couple weeks ago.

01:23:15 ◼   ► So the answer is I kept the space gray and I sold the the original green banded sport

01:23:25 ◼   ► on to your compatriot Brad of the pen addict, Myke.

01:23:29 ◼   ► - Yeah, he finally got an Apple Watch,

01:23:31 ◼   ► which I'm happy about. - He did.

01:23:32 ◼   ► He has my old Apple Watch.

01:23:34 ◼   ► That Apple Watch is on its third owner.

01:23:36 ◼   ► (laughing)

01:23:38 ◼   ► And he's liking the green band.

01:23:40 ◼   ► I like the space gray.

01:23:41 ◼   ► For me, I wanted a leather band

01:23:43 ◼   ► and I actually pre-ordered the leather classic buckle.

01:23:46 ◼   ► And when I got that, although the lugs don't match,

01:23:48 ◼   ► much to Steven Hackett's chagrin,

01:23:49 ◼   ► he hates the fact that the lugs don't match

01:23:52 ◼   ► and would never be seen wearing such a thing

01:23:54 ◼   ► and I'm wearing it right now.

01:23:56 ◼   ► Although I don't love that the lugs don't match the body,

01:24:00 ◼   ► I wanted that black leather watch band,

01:24:03 ◼   ► and it looks better, in my opinion,

01:24:06 ◼   ► with the space gray than with the silvery sport.

01:24:10 ◼   ► Because the silvery sport's got the black face,

01:24:14 ◼   ► and then it's got the silver body,

01:24:16 ◼   ► and then you've got a black band on it,

01:24:17 ◼   ► and this is why it doesn't come with a black band.

01:24:19 ◼   ► And you get this really weird two-tone effect

01:24:21 ◼   ► where it's like dark, light, dark,

01:24:23 ◼   ► that is not so great, whereas the black leather band and the black body and the black watch

01:24:30 ◼   ► face all go together, even if there's a little bit of a stainless steel highlight there too.

01:24:35 ◼   ► So you know, I'm looking forward to maybe a third party that'll let me put a leather

01:24:40 ◼   ► watch band on color-matched space gray lugs, but until then I'm pretty happy with the space

01:24:47 ◼   ► gray.

01:24:49 ◼   ► And the black sport band is nice too, and I use that sometimes too.

01:24:54 ◼   ► So the next question comes from Craig.

01:24:59 ◼   ► Now that summer's coming, do you guys use any grilling or seasonal apps for summer?

01:25:07 ◼   ► Grilling and seasonal apps.

01:25:08 ◼   ► Well, I will say, the thing I use the most when grilling is Siri.

01:25:13 ◼   ► And now I use it on my Apple Watch, which is setting timers.

01:25:15 ◼   ► So I'll go put meat on and I'll say seven minutes, set a timer for seven minutes.

01:25:19 ◼   ► And I do that a lot.

01:25:21 ◼   ► So that's my number one thing is not even an app.

01:25:23 ◼   ► It's just to use Siri.

01:25:24 ◼   ► I think that's the thing I use Siri for the most is setting a timer.

01:25:28 ◼   ► Myke, do you have any grilling slash seasonal apps?

01:25:32 ◼   ► I don't have any grilling apps.

01:25:33 ◼   ► I can't think of anything that's like that I think, oh, summertime, time to use the X

01:25:38 ◼   ► app, you know?

01:25:40 ◼   ► I don't really think of anything like that.

01:25:43 ◼   ► No, I, uh, yeah, I agree.

01:25:45 ◼   ► I don't—I move apps away.

01:25:47 ◼   ► I make sure the Major League Baseball app is installed,

01:25:50 ◼   ► and I make sure that all of the Dark Sky

01:25:52 ◼   ► and the related apps go away because it doesn't rain.

01:25:55 ◼   ► Although it's raining today,

01:25:57 ◼   ► it generally doesn't rain in the summer in the Bay Area,

01:26:00 ◼   ► and they do play baseball in the summer.

01:26:02 ◼   ► So that's the difference there.

01:26:04 ◼   ► But I don't have any grilling seasonal apps of any kind.

01:26:08 ◼   ► And most of my recipes that I keep on my iPad in Paprika

01:26:12 ◼   ► are baking, not outdoor stuff.

01:26:17 ◼   ► - Next one comes from Andrew.

01:26:20 ◼   ► How do you feel about the lack of a Nest app

01:26:22 ◼   ► for the Apple Watch?

01:26:23 ◼   ► Are we seeing a strategy tax here?

01:26:25 ◼   ► - I don't think so.

01:26:28 ◼   ► Google's got like 50 apps,

01:26:30 ◼   ► but they haven't really built a lot of Apple Watch apps yet.

01:26:34 ◼   ► I'm sure they'll get there,

01:26:36 ◼   ► but there are so many Google apps out there.

01:26:39 ◼   ► Google supports the platform.

01:26:40 ◼   ► I don't think this is one of those cases

01:26:42 ◼   ► where Google is withholding integration with Apple Watch. They just may be a

01:26:46 ◼   ► little bit slow. In my experience, Google are slow with any UI OS features.

01:26:53 ◼   ► Like, it took them way longer than many apps, including like apps from just single

01:26:58 ◼   ► developers to update for the iPhone 6. Like, they were just, they were

01:27:03 ◼   ► languishing around for a long time with the, you know, with like, not updated.

01:27:10 ◼   ► there you go, UI elements, they just wait. And I think, I actually don't know if they

01:27:18 ◼   ► have any watch apps at all. I think that they don't have any, and I'm wondering if they're

01:27:28 ◼   ► waiting for native.

01:27:32 ◼   ► It's possible. They may have said, "Look, let's just wait until we can do something

01:27:35 ◼   ► even more cool, but I have no doubt that they'll do them because there are, like I said, Derek

01:27:41 ◼   ► Walter wrote that piece on Six Colors last week about being an Android user who has moved

01:27:45 ◼   ► back to iOS, and we talked about it when we were talking about Google last week.

01:27:51 ◼   ► There are more than 50, I believe, Google apps for iOS, and iOS was prominently mentioned.

01:27:56 ◼   ► If you didn't watch the Google I/O keynote, Google's goal is to be everywhere, not just

01:28:02 ◼   ► to promote Google services.

01:28:03 ◼   ► So well, everywhere except Windows Phone, they don't care.

01:28:08 ◼   ► But iOS and Android, iOS was mentioned on stage many, many, many times at Google I/O.

01:28:16 ◼   ► Google wants to be your pal on iOS.

01:28:20 ◼   ► They do.

01:28:21 ◼   ► And so I have no doubt that there will be good Google Apps integration with the watch

01:28:26 ◼   ► eventually.

01:28:27 ◼   ► But it may take them a little while.

01:28:30 ◼   ► I think Microsoft's only got integration for PowerPoint and OneNote right now.

01:28:35 ◼   ► So Microsoft's kind of ahead of the game there.

01:28:37 ◼   ► >> I said here in the chat, just pointed me to Google News.

01:28:41 ◼   ► It is updated.

01:28:42 ◼   ► >> Google News updated for Apple Watch, see?

01:28:44 ◼   ► So it has begun, and that'll keep happening.

01:28:48 ◼   ► >> Also another piece of real-time follow-up, the Wall Street Journal is reporting that

01:28:54 ◼   ► Microsoft has bought OneNote.

01:28:55 ◼   ► >> That one Microsoft bought will under list.

01:28:57 ◼   ► Yeah, Sex Wunderkinter in Berlin, which is the maker of Wunderlist.

01:29:01 ◼   ► Because I know that's follow-up to what we mentioned them earlier, but also the idea

01:29:05 ◼   ► of wanting to be everywhere, Microsoft is getting that hunger.

01:29:09 ◼   ► Yeah, yeah.

01:29:10 ◼   ► And they're picking up features that, you know, tools like they did with, what is it,

01:29:15 ◼   ► Sunrise?

01:29:16 ◼   ► They bought Accomply, which is known as Outlook.

01:29:20 ◼   ► They bought Sunrise, the calendar application, and now potentially they're buying...

01:29:25 ◼   ► Wunderlist.

01:29:26 ◼   ► So they are building a very compelling suite of applications.

01:29:33 ◼   ► And that again is being everywhere.

01:29:34 ◼   ► I mean the funny thing about Google and Microsoft is the success of iOS has meant that Google

01:29:38 ◼   ► and Microsoft want to be on iOS and they want to be good on iOS.

01:29:41 ◼   ► And I would actually argue that they are both good on iOS.

01:29:44 ◼   ► Yeah, but you can be even better if you buy up really interesting companies that are doing

01:29:48 ◼   ► this completely.

01:29:49 ◼   ► Yeah, I mean, well the Sunrise, that calendar keyboard thing that they did, it's just crazy,

01:29:54 ◼   ► But it's really innovative and interesting and buying a Wunderlist.

01:29:59 ◼   ► I really wish that was a separate app, though.

01:30:01 ◼   ► I agree, although the challenge is that it would just be a standalone keyboard app that

01:30:06 ◼   ► says you should install this as a keyboard because keyboards have to be apps.

01:30:09 ◼   ► It doesn't have to be a keyboard, though.

01:30:11 ◼   ► Like the keyboard UI...

01:30:12 ◼   ► Well, that's true.

01:30:13 ◼   ► It could just be an app.

01:30:14 ◼   ► It doesn't have to be a keyboard.

01:30:16 ◼   ► Well, but the idea there is that you're responding to email and you're saying, "When are you

01:30:20 ◼   ► free?"

01:30:21 ◼   ► And you go, "Boop, boop, boop, boop, boop," and it puts it in an email and you send it.

01:30:24 ◼   ► I don't know. Anyway, there's some interesting stuff going on with Google and Microsoft these

01:30:28 ◼   ► days. And I met some of the people at Six Wunderkinder. There you go. All right. Let's

01:30:37 ◼   ► just do that. In Berlin, I saw them. And I actually met... I don't know if people know

01:30:44 ◼   ► that that prominent person works for Wunderlist, but there's a prominent person in our business

01:30:51 ◼   ► who moved to Berlin and, well, I mean, so James Duncan Davidson, who used to live in

01:30:57 ◼   ► Portland?

01:30:58 ◼   ► He's open with that.

01:31:00 ◼   ► Okay, yeah, so he's working there in Berlin.

01:31:03 ◼   ► So I think the question is, are they going to stay in Berlin?

01:31:05 ◼   ► Are they going to move them to Seattle?

01:31:07 ◼   ► What's going to happen with that and what's their philosophy there?

01:31:09 ◼   ► But I think it's cool.

01:31:11 ◼   ► That's an interesting group of developers.

01:31:15 ◼   ► That's a cool development.

01:31:18 ◼   ► What else do we have on Ask Upgrade?

01:31:21 ◼   ► Have we reached the foretold Apple Watch band question?

01:31:23 ◼   ► Yes, from Gabriel.

01:31:25 ◼   ► Gabriel asks for a budget-conscious office dweller.

01:31:28 ◼   ► Where do you stand on wearing a color watch sport with a suit?

01:31:33 ◼   ► I think it's fine.

01:31:34 ◼   ► I think if you're going to wear a suit day in and day out, you might want to consider

01:31:38 ◼   ► the black or white straps as well as a color so you can be, you know, plain.

01:31:46 ◼   ► But I like the colors.

01:31:47 ◼   ► Did we consult with Matt Alexander?

01:31:49 ◼   ► We should do that.

01:31:50 ◼   ► Matt says. I think keeping it monochrome is a good idea, and like I said, I like the letter.

01:32:01 ◼   ► Having seen people, I've seen stylish people, dressed up people, I think the stainless

01:32:08 ◼   ► model looks great. But you know, if you are budget conscious, I think you'd get away with it. But

01:32:15 ◼   ► yeah, I think the black or white straps, that's good advice. I've seen them more, like I think,

01:32:19 ◼   ► Matt has a stainless one. I saw him a couple of weeks ago, saw him last week, and it looks really

01:32:23 ◼   ► nice. I still maintain that it's not the one for me. I think it looks fantastic. It's just not what

01:32:27 ◼   ► I want. It's not what I want either. Well, I would say, and this is to Stephen Hackett's horror again,

01:32:32 ◼   ► is you could also get something, you could get a leather loop maybe, which doesn't have the lug

01:32:36 ◼   ► problem, I think. Or I'm gonna get the Milanese. Like, I'm going, I'm going all in. Yeah, so I think

01:32:40 ◼   ► there are options there if you wanna, if you wanna dress up that watch too, to make it work with a

01:32:44 ◼   ► the suit even if it's not a perfect match to make it look nicer but you know

01:32:50 ◼   ► black sport band would be a thing you could do that would be pretty subtle.

01:32:54 ◼   ► So mine came with the blue and I've been you know keeping my eye on the store so I know I

01:32:59 ◼   ► want to get a black I want to get a black sport band so I was in town today

01:33:03 ◼   ► and I went into the Regent Street Apple store and they had straps well we call

01:33:07 ◼   ► them straps here by the way and they're actually called by Apple here they're

01:33:11 ◼   ► called straps, not bands, because that's just the, you know, it's the correct vernacular.

01:33:16 ◼   ► All right. And I ended up leaving the Apple Store with two, and neither of them were black.

01:33:21 ◼   ► Wow. They didn't have the black in stock there. I bought the white band, the white

01:33:26 ◼   ► sport band, and the green sport band. Ah. And I'm not sure if I'm gonna keep them

01:33:32 ◼   ► both, but I bought them both. I want to try them and then maybe I'll return them,

01:33:36 ◼   ► and I want to see what my girlfriend says. I don't love the white one. I kind of love

01:33:40 ◼   ► the green one. When I had the green one, that's a fun color.

01:33:44 ◼   ► I have the blue and having the green feels good. I think I will keep the white though.

01:33:48 ◼   ► I like the way the white looks. Adina has the white. She has white with hers and it

01:33:52 ◼   ► looks really, I think it always looks really, really fresh.

01:33:55 ◼   ► It's good for summer. You can have a Pimm's cup and with your white band on.

01:33:59 ◼   ► Definitely.

01:34:00 ◼   ► Strap. White strap. Pimm's cup, white strap.

01:34:04 ◼   ► Do you want to go for the last one from Jason?

01:34:08 ◼   ► Jason Martin was asking us about international travel

01:34:13 ◼   ► because he's going to Italy and they have,

01:34:16 ◼   ► so number one question is we both have iPhone 5Ss

01:34:18 ◼   ► on Verizon, my understanding is unlocking a Verizon phone

01:34:20 ◼   ► is not necessary because they will work

01:34:22 ◼   ► with foreign SIM cards out of the box.

01:34:24 ◼   ► That is my understanding too,

01:34:26 ◼   ► that you don't actually have to unlock them.

01:34:27 ◼   ► You can just pop a foreign SIM in and they'll work

01:34:30 ◼   ► because Verizon's technology doesn't use a SIM

01:34:32 ◼   ► and you can just pop in a SIM on the 5S

01:34:36 ◼   ► and that's what they call the roaming SIM.

01:34:38 ◼   ► And when you're in a foreign country

01:34:41 ◼   ► where you don't have Verizon's frequencies,

01:34:44 ◼   ► it uses the SIM card.

01:34:48 ◼   ► -My simple understanding of this is the network

01:34:51 ◼   ► is not locking the handset.

01:34:52 ◼   ► They're locking the handset to a network,

01:34:55 ◼   ► and by network, I mean like a band type.

01:34:57 ◼   ► And because Verizon is CDMA, not GSM,

01:35:01 ◼   ► where practically the rest of --

01:35:03 ◼   ► basically everywhere else in the world uses GSM.

01:35:05 ◼   ► except like South Korea or something.

01:35:07 ◼   ► - Yeah. - Yeah.

01:35:08 ◼   ► - If you use CDMA, you'll be fine

01:35:09 ◼   ► to use a GSM network as well

01:35:11 ◼   ► because Verizon have only locked you to a CDMA band.

01:35:14 ◼   ► That's my understanding. - Yeah, exactly.

01:35:15 ◼   ► So you should be able to do that, which is great.

01:35:17 ◼   ► That's the great advantage of international travel

01:35:19 ◼   ► with a Verizon iPhone is you can do that.

01:35:21 ◼   ► And then he asked,

01:35:23 ◼   ► best procedure of getting Italian SIM card.

01:35:24 ◼   ► I don't have an answer to this.

01:35:26 ◼   ► He asked about pre-ordering and all that.

01:35:29 ◼   ► Generally, what I've done is I've just gone in country

01:35:31 ◼   ► and there are kiosks or stores where you can go in.

01:35:34 ◼   ► You can do some research beforehand

01:35:35 ◼   ► about what the best deals are.

01:35:37 ◼   ► Maybe ask your Twitter followers,

01:35:38 ◼   ► see if there's an Italian Twitter follower

01:35:41 ◼   ► who can help you out.

01:35:42 ◼   ► But I think you'll be able to get something in country

01:35:47 ◼   ► when you get there.

01:35:47 ◼   ► And maybe even they're starting to have them in airports,

01:35:50 ◼   ► just kiosks in airports where you can go and pay some money

01:35:53 ◼   ► and pay a few euro and get a SIM card and pop it in.

01:35:57 ◼   ► That's what I did when I was in Heathrow

01:35:59 ◼   ► is I paid 15 pounds or something and I got a three SIM.

01:36:03 ◼   ► That was great.

01:36:03 ◼   ► I wanted to ask you, Myke, what's your SIM strategy

01:36:07 ◼   ► because you're coming to WWDC, what do you do?

01:36:09 ◼   ► - So every single time that I come,

01:36:14 ◼   ► I end up buying a SIM card.

01:36:18 ◼   ► This time I will find a way to keep the SIM card,

01:36:22 ◼   ► so I have to keep doing this every single time.

01:36:24 ◼   ► So I am going to grab a,

01:36:27 ◼   ► I'm going to Memphis for a couple of days.

01:36:31 ◼   ► So I'm gonna grab a T-Mobile SIM when I'm in Memphis.

01:36:36 ◼   ► And that's what I'll use.

01:36:37 ◼   ► My iPhone is unlocked now,

01:36:39 ◼   ► after I had a whole big problem with it

01:36:41 ◼   ► a couple of months ago, it's fully unlocked.

01:36:43 ◼   ► So I will be just throwing a T-Mobile SIM in.

01:36:45 ◼   ► And I go with T-Mobile because they give,

01:36:48 ◼   ► they're the easiest to get in and out of the store with.

01:36:51 ◼   ► They give good data bundles for a decent price.

01:36:54 ◼   ► And I just go with that.

01:36:55 ◼   ► It works fine for me.

01:36:57 ◼   ► I want someone that's gonna let me tether.

01:37:00 ◼   ► just want to be able to do everything and I just want a big chunk of data and

01:37:04 ◼   ► just go crazy with it. That's what I'm gonna be doing this time and I'll be

01:37:07 ◼   ► keeping it for next time for sure. So I keep having to buy them every year.

01:37:11 ◼   ► It's frustrating. So I'm looking... there was a company that I had seen

01:37:18 ◼   ► previously on the talk show called Symporium. They were a sponsor a long

01:37:24 ◼   ► long time ago and I'm trying to use their website right now and it's

01:37:28 ◼   ► currently not loading but I I want to just I want to see before we close out

01:37:33 ◼   ► today to see if they still exist because it was a company that you could pre-order

01:37:38 ◼   ► a SIM card and it would be like you could order to your hotel or whatever

01:37:45 ◼   ► hmm it's not looking very it's not looking good. They may be dead. I think

01:37:49 ◼   ► they're dead. Yeah I think they're dead. Oh well. So there you go.

01:37:53 ◼   ► there is not a market for that.

01:37:56 ◼   ► - No. - There we go.

01:37:59 ◼   ► - No, they've realized international travel is a thing

01:38:01 ◼   ► and are figuring it out.

01:38:04 ◼   ► It's become, every time I've gone to Europe,

01:38:06 ◼   ► it's been easier to get online.

01:38:09 ◼   ► And you know, it was, first it was,

01:38:11 ◼   ► I had to track down a store somewhere

01:38:14 ◼   ► and figure out the best one and all of that.

01:38:16 ◼   ► And then the next one, there were stores all around me.

01:38:18 ◼   ► And the next time I didn't even need to go to a store

01:38:20 ◼   ► 'cause it was at the baggage claim.

01:38:22 ◼   ► So they know there's a market for Americans to buy SIM cards

01:38:27 ◼   ► when they're traveling abroad,

01:38:29 ◼   ► and other people from other places

01:38:30 ◼   ► that also have onerous roaming fees.

01:38:33 ◼   ► And so it's a thing, yeah. It's not a big deal.

01:38:35 ◼   ► - I think that's it for this week.

01:38:40 ◼   ► - I think so. Big show.

01:38:41 ◼   ► So next week, we'll be in person again,

01:38:43 ◼   ► somewhere in San Francisco, at the Relay Suites.

01:38:47 ◼   ► - Yep.

01:38:48 ◼   ► - And we will do a special post-keynote upgrade sometime

01:38:52 ◼   ► and I'm looking forward to it.

01:38:53 ◼   ► It'll be nice to have our third in-person upgrade

01:38:56 ◼   ► out of the next week.

01:38:57 ◼   ► - Such an occasion.

01:38:58 ◼   ► So you can look out for that on Monday,

01:39:00 ◼   ► as always next week.

01:39:02 ◼   ► So we'll be first to the podcast presses, as it were,

01:39:05 ◼   ► with upgrade.

01:39:07 ◼   ► So you can look forward to that.

01:39:10 ◼   ► I wanna thank our sponsors again for this week's episode

01:39:12 ◼   ► for helping us out.

01:39:13 ◼   ► That is lynda.com, igloo, and mailroute.

01:39:16 ◼   ► If you'd like to find us online,

01:39:17 ◼   ► there's a couple of ways you can do that.

01:39:18 ◼   ► You can find Jason's work primarily at sixcolors.com

01:39:22 ◼   ► and he has links to lots of the other stuff that he does there.

01:39:24 ◼   ► And you should also go and check out the incomparable.com as well

01:39:27 ◼   ► for Jason's great cavalcade of podcasts.

01:39:30 ◼   ► You can find those out there for all of your pop culture desires.

01:39:33 ◼   ► And Jason is @jsnell, J-S-N-E-L-L on Twitter, and I am @imike, I-M-Y-K-E.

01:39:38 ◼   ► Keep it locked to relay.fm.

01:39:41 ◼   ► We've got some exciting stuff coming this week,

01:39:43 ◼   ► which I think that you're going to be very excited about.

01:39:45 ◼   ► So you should keep it checked there, because we've got some stuff that we're working on.

01:39:49 ◼   ► And we'll be back next week live and in person from San Francisco.

01:39:53 ◼   ► Thank you so much for listening.

01:39:54 ◼   ► Say goodbye Jason Sal.

01:39:56 ◼   ► Goodbye everybody.

01:39:57 ◼   ► [MUSIC PLAYING]

01:40:00 ◼   ► [ Music ]