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The Incomparable

264: Passwords Are Wrong, Man

 

00:00:00   the uncomfortable radio theatre is [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/0">TS</a>]

00:00:01   coming very very soon and now let's [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/1">TS</a>]

00:00:05   model spread ship division time for the [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/5">TS</a>]

00:00:08   fall most famous words and racing galaxy [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/8">TS</a>]

00:00:13   Scouts start your engines at five words [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/13">TS</a>]

00:00:19   it's just an expression go to the [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/19">TS</a>]

00:00:21   incomparable calm / radio or search [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/21">TS</a>]

00:00:23   itunes to subscribe today the [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/23">TS</a>]

00:00:27   incomparable number 264 September 2015 [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/27">TS</a>]

00:00:36   welcome back everybody to the [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/36">TS</a>]

00:00:37   uncountable i'm your host Jason Steele [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/37">TS</a>]

00:00:38   we like to talk about books on this [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/38">TS</a>]

00:00:40   podcast and we like to talk about nerdy [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/40">TS</a>]

00:00:42   things on this podcast we're going to [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/42">TS</a>]

00:00:43   mix it up [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/43">TS</a>]

00:00:44   we also like sometimes talk about all [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/44">TS</a>]

00:00:45   things are going to put all those [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/45">TS</a>]

00:00:47   together in a bowl and spin them around [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/47">TS</a>]

00:00:48   what you're going to get his old nerdy [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/48">TS</a>]

00:00:50   books about technology from the earlier [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/50">TS</a>]

00:00:53   days of technology this is a really a [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/53">TS</a>]

00:00:55   very clever idea for a topic that was [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/55">TS</a>]

00:00:57   brought to us by Lisa Schmeisser herself [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/57">TS</a>]

00:01:00   who is here [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/60">TS</a>]

00:01:01   hi Lisa hi it's a pleasure to be here [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/61">TS</a>]

00:01:03   yes well youyou called it and we made it [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/63">TS</a>]

00:01:06   happen eventually [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/66">TS</a>]

00:01:07   so we're going to hear you're here we're [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/67">TS</a>]

00:01:09   going to talk about books such as [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/69">TS</a>]

00:01:12   hackers micro surfs the Cuckoo's egg and [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/72">TS</a>]

00:01:16   soul of a new machine [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/76">TS</a>]

00:01:17   these are books from an era where we [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/77">TS</a>]

00:01:19   were all just sort of figuring out about [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/79">TS</a>]

00:01:21   technology and books were some fictional [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/81">TS</a>]

00:01:23   some non-fictional bringing to us this [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/83">TS</a>]

00:01:26   crazy new world of computers and the [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/86">TS</a>]

00:01:28   internet and some of them are actually I [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/88">TS</a>]

00:01:31   think all of them are quite fascinating [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/91">TS</a>]

00:01:33   and some of them are probably worth your [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/93">TS</a>]

00:01:34   time even today joining me and Lisa to [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/94">TS</a>]

00:01:37   talk about these nerdy books are some [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/97">TS</a>]

00:01:40   nerdy people i'm going to say look at [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/100">TS</a>]

00:01:44   lower is out there hello hello [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/104">TS</a>]

00:01:47   I i will cop to being some deeper some [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/107">TS</a>]

00:01:49   nerdy person [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/109">TS</a>]

00:01:51   Monty Ashley also out their employee of [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/111">TS</a>]

00:01:54   a large technology company but who's [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/114">TS</a>]

00:01:55   counting contractor for a large checks [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/115">TS</a>]

00:01:58   are companies do all right you wouldn't [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/118">TS</a>]

00:02:00   be a nerd if you did in fact my contract [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/120">TS</a>]

00:02:02   contractor actually that says it all [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/122">TS</a>]

00:02:04   doesn't it that yes that is his nineties [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/124">TS</a>]

00:02:06   it's not his tech industry is possible [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/126">TS</a>]

00:02:09   today's and I you know I know that this [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/129">TS</a>]

00:02:13   person knew Jeff bezos's mailman's [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/133">TS</a>]

00:02:16   brother it's cool and Fleischmann excuse [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/136">TS</a>]

00:02:18   me its basis is jeff basis mailman's [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/138">TS</a>]

00:02:23   brother I'm not mentioned in any of the [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/143">TS</a>]

00:02:26   books so far as i know that we're [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/146">TS</a>]

00:02:27   covering tonight but you were your [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/147">TS</a>]

00:02:29   you've been present we've got some [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/149">TS</a>]

00:02:31   people from the from the Seattle [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/151">TS</a>]

00:02:33   technology sphere here which is kind of [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/153">TS</a>]

00:02:37   fascinating to sew with somewhere where [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/157">TS</a>]

00:02:39   should we start I will admit that I i [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/159">TS</a>]

00:02:41   re-read one of these or are skimmed one [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/161">TS</a>]

00:02:45   of these and haven't read the other two [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/165">TS</a>]

00:02:46   who so guidance [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/166">TS</a>]

00:02:48   start by said the reason I wanted to do [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/168">TS</a>]

00:02:50   is likely as wasn't even sure the reason [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/170">TS</a>]

00:02:53   i wanted his pipe podcast is [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/173">TS</a>]

00:02:54   microservice was published 20 years ago [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/174">TS</a>]

00:02:56   this July and it was kind of perhaps I'm [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/176">TS</a>]

00:03:00   overstating the cultural impact but it [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/180">TS</a>]

00:03:02   was kind of like a postcard from the the [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/182">TS</a>]

00:03:05   future or rather the future that was [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/185">TS</a>]

00:03:07   being shaped up and down the west coast [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/187">TS</a>]

00:03:09   and little tech enclaves all over the [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/189">TS</a>]

00:03:10   place and what I can remember is over [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/190">TS</a>]

00:03:14   the year or two after was published [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/194">TS</a>]

00:03:15   everywhere in the world wide web someone [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/195">TS</a>]

00:03:17   was saying i want to live in a nerd [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/197">TS</a>]

00:03:18   house like they have a micro service or [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/198">TS</a>]

00:03:19   they worse or they were saying identify [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/199">TS</a>]

00:03:21   with sunset from microservice alright [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/201">TS</a>]

00:03:23   actually what was on a date one time [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/203">TS</a>]

00:03:24   with someone who's like what are your [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/204">TS</a>]

00:03:25   five jeopardy categories and I was like [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/205">TS</a>]

00:03:27   did you get that from microservices like [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/207">TS</a>]

00:03:29   I got it from microsoft so [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/209">TS</a>]

00:03:31   oh so it was um one of those minor works [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/211">TS</a>]

00:03:37   of a cultural cannon in the nineteen [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/217">TS</a>]

00:03:38   nineties and then I got to thinking [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/218">TS</a>]

00:03:39   about what are the other books that I [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/219">TS</a>]

00:03:42   knew that got passed around like the [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/222">TS</a>]

00:03:44   engineering departments of startups or [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/224">TS</a>]

00:03:46   maybe they're percolated through through [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/226">TS</a>]

00:03:48   offices throughout South the market and [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/228">TS</a>]

00:03:50   once they came up with things like the [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/230">TS</a>]

00:03:52   Cuckoo's egg by clifford stole hackers [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/232">TS</a>]

00:03:54   by steven levy a friend of mine who is a [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/234">TS</a>]

00:03:58   PhD in electrical engineering said the [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/238">TS</a>]

00:04:00   one that he considers to be the vertex [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/240">TS</a>]

00:04:02   of them all is Tracy Kidder's the soul [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/242">TS</a>]

00:04:06   of a new machine and so I thought it [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/246">TS</a>]

00:04:08   would be kind of fun to talk about like [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/248">TS</a>]

00:04:10   the tech cultural the textbook canada [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/250">TS</a>]

00:04:12   the nineteen nineties like the [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/252">TS</a>]

00:04:13   literature that may have shaped people [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/253">TS</a>]

00:04:15   who worked on level one point out and [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/255">TS</a>]

00:04:17   what books are kind of like music [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/257">TS</a>]

00:04:19   artifact today and what books are [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/259">TS</a>]

00:04:21   actually pretty handy to read because [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/261">TS</a>]

00:04:23   they were either really pressure or [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/263">TS</a>]

00:04:25   they're great historical record for [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/265">TS</a>]

00:04:27   explaining the era [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/267">TS</a>]

00:04:28   alright thank God I think that's good i [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/268">TS</a>]

00:04:30   I'll tell you and in rereading the [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/270">TS</a>]

00:04:32   Cuckoo's egg [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/272">TS</a>]

00:04:33   ok which I always I always liked I that [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/273">TS</a>]

00:04:36   took me back to to that era I have lots [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/276">TS</a>]

00:04:41   of opinions about it but I don't know I [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/281">TS</a>]

00:04:42   feel like I feel like maybe [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/282">TS</a>]

00:04:43   microservices the place to start here [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/283">TS</a>]

00:04:46   Lisa since that was here inspired all of [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/286">TS</a>]

00:04:48   this and i have I haven't read it [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/288">TS</a>]

00:04:51   I'mI'm intellects for even roll here not [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/291">TS</a>]

00:04:54   seen it not read it so I'm going to [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/294">TS</a>]

00:04:55   leave it to you all to discuss this is [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/295">TS</a>]

00:04:59   douglas coupland right well yeah this is [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/299">TS</a>]

00:05:01   done [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/301">TS</a>]

00:05:01   so do you want basically like a brief [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/301">TS</a>]

00:05:03   this is what the book is about why I [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/303">TS</a>]

00:05:04   remember that would be a great place [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/304">TS</a>]

00:05:06   alright so in a nutshell the book is [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/306">TS</a>]

00:05:09   about a group of Microsoft employees who [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/309">TS</a>]

00:05:12   spend who are you know energetic and [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/312">TS</a>]

00:05:16   engaged and passionate about their work [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/316">TS</a>]

00:05:18   but not particularly ambitious and not [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/318">TS</a>]

00:05:20   particularly self-aware and over the [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/320">TS</a>]

00:05:22   course of the book they all leave [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/322">TS</a>]

00:05:23   Microsoft they called us together to [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/323">TS</a>]

00:05:25   work in a start-up and it is about them [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/325">TS</a>]

00:05:28   turning into they'll become real boys [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/328">TS</a>]

00:05:30   and girls as it were [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/330">TS</a>]

00:05:31   that's basically the whole Locker the [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/331">TS</a>]

00:05:32   book is its young adults learn how you [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/332">TS</a>]

00:05:35   can also learn who they are and what [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/335">TS</a>]

00:05:37   makes it such an uncanny artifact of the [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/337">TS</a>]

00:05:40   time is that [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/340">TS</a>]

00:05:42   Copeland spends a lot of the book trying [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/342">TS</a>]

00:05:44   to meditate the boundaries between your [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/344">TS</a>]

00:05:47   offline life versus your virtual your [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/347">TS</a>]

00:05:50   online life because there's a subplot [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/350">TS</a>]

00:05:51   that involves two of the women who work [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/351">TS</a>]

00:05:54   in the company putting together an [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/354">TS</a>]

00:05:55   online coding coding group called chicks [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/355">TS</a>]

00:05:57   to raise the profile of girls in the [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/357">TS</a>]

00:05:59   tech industry and the book is actually a [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/359">TS</a>]

00:06:03   series of journal entries that the lead [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/363">TS</a>]

00:06:06   guide the building protagonist makes on [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/366">TS</a>]

00:06:07   on his computer the whole time he's [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/367">TS</a>]

00:06:10   under the spell of a genius who seems to [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/370">TS</a>]

00:06:12   be more comfortable interfacing with [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/372">TS</a>]

00:06:14   computers than with people and another [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/374">TS</a>]

00:06:16   thing Copeland does he punctuates each [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/376">TS</a>]

00:06:18   chapter of the list of seemingly random [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/378">TS</a>]

00:06:20   words and he also has the conceit where [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/380">TS</a>]

00:06:22   he introduces advice but I saying here [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/382">TS</a>]

00:06:24   or there jeopardy cafeteria the Jeopardy [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/384">TS</a>]

00:06:26   category is that define them and when [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/386">TS</a>]

00:06:28   he's also doing is trying to make a [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/388">TS</a>]

00:06:29   point about how culture influences [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/389">TS</a>]

00:06:30   technology and vice versa and how [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/390">TS</a>]

00:06:33   difficult it can be to figure out who [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/393">TS</a>]

00:06:35   you are if you hide in technology have [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/395">TS</a>]

00:06:36   to kind of flip it around and make it [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/396">TS</a>]

00:06:38   something that works for you not vice [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/398">TS</a>]

00:06:39   versa other so so with that said about [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/399">TS</a>]

00:06:43   their hands throughout their head has [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/403">TS</a>]

00:06:44   comments about Microsoft's because I [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/404">TS</a>]

00:06:46   don't is everybody else either either [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/406">TS</a>]

00:06:48   read it [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/408">TS</a>]

00:06:49   iraq to blend in a little extra candy 10 [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/409">TS</a>]

00:06:52   that's funny because it was well here's [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/412">TS</a>]

00:06:54   the thing well here's my comment is I [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/414">TS</a>]

00:06:55   moved to Seattle in 1993 and it was no [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/415">TS</a>]

00:06:59   thought of as a bit of a Boeing town [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/419">TS</a>]

00:07:01   and and Boeing was the big engineering [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/421">TS</a>]

00:07:03   culture and there are no books that have [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/423">TS</a>]

00:07:05   entered the popular kind of [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/425">TS</a>]

00:07:06   consciousness about bowing as a company [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/426">TS</a>]

00:07:08   there are books about a plenty of them [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/428">TS</a>]

00:07:10   but boeing was full of engineers are [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/430">TS</a>]

00:07:12   tens of thousands of Engineers you know [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/432">TS</a>]

00:07:14   civil engineers and and all kinds of [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/434">TS</a>]

00:07:17   other no idea of the Aeronautics and so [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/437">TS</a>]

00:07:19   forth and they made huge amounts of [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/439">TS</a>]

00:07:21   money to create salaries they sort of [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/441">TS</a>]

00:07:23   set a bit of the Seattle culture and [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/443">TS</a>]

00:07:25   then we have the dot-com infection when [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/445">TS</a>]

00:07:28   Amazon fact that grew and is expanded to [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/448">TS</a>]

00:07:30   cover all available land mass but [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/450">TS</a>]

00:07:33   Microsoft was there in the middle you [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/453">TS</a>]

00:07:34   know there was a local guy another local [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/454">TS</a>]

00:07:36   guy came back and they have their [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/456">TS</a>]

00:07:38   sojourn in the wilderness and came here [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/458">TS</a>]

00:07:39   and found a company and and built it up [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/459">TS</a>]

00:07:42   and so when I got here in 93 worse we [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/462">TS</a>]

00:07:44   were not only thousands of Microsoft [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/464">TS</a>]

00:07:46   employees there's almost a hundred [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/466">TS</a>]

00:07:47   thousand now worldwide but Microsoft's [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/467">TS</a>]

00:07:51   kind of hit too close to home I was like [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/471">TS</a>]

00:07:52   I'm living in this milieu everybody [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/472">TS</a>]

00:07:55   around me is working for microsoft and [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/475">TS</a>]

00:07:57   I'm going out in that field so I never [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/477">TS</a>]

00:07:59   ever ready because i felt i was in it so [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/479">TS</a>]

00:08:01   that's my perspective the book is kind [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/481">TS</a>]

00:08:03   of notable because it sort of posits [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/483">TS</a>]

00:08:05   that you can not have boundaries between [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/485">TS</a>]

00:08:07   your work life and your social life that [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/487">TS</a>]

00:08:09   if you do that you can basically just [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/489">TS</a>]

00:08:11   have one seamless sloshy thing where [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/491">TS</a>]

00:08:13   everything is somehow innately [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/493">TS</a>]

00:08:14   fulfilling and so I think it was one of [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/494">TS</a>]

00:08:17   the building blocks of the myth of you [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/497">TS</a>]

00:08:20   know rewarding fulfilling start startup [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/500">TS</a>]

00:08:22   culture and clinical work life balance [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/502">TS</a>]

00:08:23   because Copelan essentially spins this [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/503">TS</a>]

00:08:26   fairy tale that you can find a job and a [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/506">TS</a>]

00:08:28   company full of people who will [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/508">TS</a>]

00:08:29   automatically be your best friend and [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/509">TS</a>]

00:08:31   you can find romantic fulfillment that [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/511">TS</a>]

00:08:32   way to and I think a lot of people were [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/512">TS</a>]

00:08:35   really beguiled by that idea because [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/515">TS</a>]

00:08:38   it's so it's like college accepted me I [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/518">TS</a>]

00:08:40   get a paycheck i read this book in 1995 [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/520">TS</a>]

00:08:44   shortly after I moved to Seattle them [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/524">TS</a>]

00:08:47   anymore and right right i'm working at [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/527">TS</a>]

00:08:52   Microsoft right now but I've only been [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/532">TS</a>]

00:08:55   doing that for about a year but i was [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/535">TS</a>]

00:08:57   also working at Microsoft in 1996 or so [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/537">TS</a>]

00:09:01   actually no 1995 that I was doing [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/541">TS</a>]

00:09:05   microsoft technical support for the [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/545">TS</a>]

00:09:07   launch of windows 95 it was part of my [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/547">TS</a>]

00:09:10   job to answer the phone and say hi [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/550">TS</a>]

00:09:12   thanks for calling microsoft technical [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/552">TS</a>]

00:09:13   support [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/553">TS</a>]

00:09:14   what [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/554">TS</a>]

00:09:14   and the program do you have a problem [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/554">TS</a>]

00:09:15   with and then when people told me I was [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/555">TS</a>]

00:09:17   then tried to rout them to either the [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/557">TS</a>]

00:09:18   visual basic engineers or the Microsoft [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/558">TS</a>]

00:09:21   Bob engineers depending on where [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/561">TS</a>]

00:09:24   people's problems were i gotta say i [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/564">TS</a>]

00:09:26   never thought micro serfs felt accurate [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/566">TS</a>]

00:09:31   at all like for one thing it describes a [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/571">TS</a>]

00:09:35   Microsoft where everybody uses [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/575">TS</a>]

00:09:36   Macintosh's for everything which is not [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/576">TS</a>]

00:09:40   my experience but also just the degree [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/580">TS</a>]

00:09:44   to which everybody lives microsoft in [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/584">TS</a>]

00:09:50   the book and lives with the people they [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/590">TS</a>]

00:09:53   work with ya drastically overstated my [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/593">TS</a>]

00:09:56   experience having said that it's super [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/596">TS</a>]

00:10:00   fun for me to read it now because [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/600">TS</a>]

00:10:02   Copeland did a lot of research on the [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/602">TS</a>]

00:10:05   area clearly because he's talking about [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/605">TS</a>]

00:10:08   the fries over there and like that price [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/608">TS</a>]

00:10:11   is still over there it's awful now or [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/611">TS</a>]

00:10:13   there's one line where he says microsoft [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/613">TS</a>]

00:10:15   is so huge they have 25 buildings and [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/615">TS</a>]

00:10:19   that's 20 years ago now I I work in a [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/619">TS</a>]

00:10:22   building labeled a because they ran out [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/622">TS</a>]

00:10:25   of numbers is my theory it's just I'm [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/625">TS</a>]

00:10:29   basically on the main campus but it's [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/629">TS</a>]

00:10:31   still incredibly huge and you never see [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/631">TS</a>]

00:10:33   anything on the other side of the campus [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/633">TS</a>]

00:10:36   so I I at this point to me it's a [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/636">TS</a>]

00:10:39   historical look at the size of Microsoft [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/639">TS</a>]

00:10:42   20 years ago but it's like a recruitment [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/642">TS</a>]

00:10:46   pamphlet from back in the day and then [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/646">TS</a>]

00:10:48   part way through the book they all leave [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/648">TS</a>]

00:10:50   Microsoft anyway and I don't feel [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/650">TS</a>]

00:10:52   vaguely let down by that because clearly [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/652">TS</a>]

00:10:54   to me [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/654">TS</a>]

00:10:55   coupland doesn't really care about [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/655">TS</a>]

00:10:56   microsoft he cares about Silicon Valley [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/656">TS</a>]

00:10:58   nerds need ya to start some up and back [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/658">TS</a>]

00:11:01   off then get them down to where he cares [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/661">TS</a>]

00:11:03   about as quickly as possible [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/663">TS</a>]

00:11:04   they also have like a cult of [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/664">TS</a>]

00:11:05   personality around bill gates because [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/665">TS</a>]

00:11:07   remember he writes the book around the [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/667">TS</a>]

00:11:08   time that bill gates got married to [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/668">TS</a>]

00:11:09   melinda and there's a lot of fixation on [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/669">TS</a>]

00:11:11   that too so that there's a sort of Bill [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/671">TS</a>]

00:11:14   Gates is this you know he's a [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/674">TS</a>]

00:11:16   combination of patron saints super [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/676">TS</a>]

00:11:17   villain in their in their minds as well [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/677">TS</a>]

00:11:19   which i thought was a a weird choice but [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/679">TS</a>]

00:11:22   i guess thats that's not entirely [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/682">TS</a>]

00:11:24   accurate i mean now now is it [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/684">TS</a>]

00:11:27   giant house that looks a bit like a [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/687">TS</a>]

00:11:29   supervillain later [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/689">TS</a>]

00:11:30   oh my god really and well I mean he's [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/690">TS</a>]

00:11:33   super rich me as a house of the future [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/693">TS</a>]

00:11:34   so you know why wouldn't you [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/694">TS</a>]

00:11:36   but also i have heard people say I i saw [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/696">TS</a>]

00:11:40   bill on campus once [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/700">TS</a>]

00:11:42   oh wow yeah which is why wouldn't he I'm [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/702">TS</a>]

00:11:45   sure he's got an office here somewhere [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/705">TS</a>]

00:11:47   let me know i'll say right off the bat I [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/707">TS</a>]

00:11:49   am NOT a douglas coupland fan I this is [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/709">TS</a>]

00:11:53   this is the only douglas coupland book [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/713">TS</a>]

00:11:55   i've liked and and i would say [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/715">TS</a>]

00:11:58   dramatically overstated is a good [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/718">TS</a>]

00:12:00   description of almost all of his work if [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/720">TS</a>]

00:12:02   it uh but for all that when this came [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/722">TS</a>]

00:12:06   out I avoided it like the plague because [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/726">TS</a>]

00:12:08   I'm like oh it's copeland and at the [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/728">TS</a>]

00:12:11   time i guess was 96 I was doing a lot of [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/731">TS</a>]

00:12:13   driving trips on consulting things i'm [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/733">TS</a>]

00:12:16   driving around and and I would listen to [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/736">TS</a>]

00:12:18   audiobooks in the car was very it was a [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/738">TS</a>]

00:12:20   nice way to past six hours while driving [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/740">TS</a>]

00:12:22   straight on an interstate and the [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/742">TS</a>]

00:12:26   audiobook of this was written by written [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/746">TS</a>]

00:12:29   performed by Matthew Perry and I thought [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/749">TS</a>]

00:12:33   okay you know it's a bridged if I don't [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/753">TS</a>]

00:12:37   like it at least Matthew Perry will be [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/757">TS</a>]

00:12:38   amusing [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/758">TS</a>]

00:12:39   you know there wasn't anything else at [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/759">TS</a>]

00:12:41   the store the really appealed to me [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/761">TS</a>]

00:12:42   something alright and I i went up [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/762">TS</a>]

00:12:45   enjoying it so I went and got the book [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/765">TS</a>]

00:12:46   so I could get all the bits that i [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/766">TS</a>]

00:12:48   missed since it was abridged and yeah i [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/768">TS</a>]

00:12:52   mean going back to it now it's like oh [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/772">TS</a>]

00:12:54   yeah it's actually not very good either [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/774">TS</a>]

00:12:56   but I basically liked the setup of it i [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/776">TS</a>]

00:13:02   mean at the time i was thinking you know [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/782">TS</a>]

00:13:04   this would make a really good TV show [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/784">TS</a>]

00:13:06   you know the the framework is their [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/786">TS</a>]

00:13:09   animated for obvious reasons they got [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/789">TS</a>]

00:13:12   Perry to do the the voice so it's like [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/792">TS</a>]

00:13:14   well alright that makes sense [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/794">TS</a>]

00:13:16   we should say for those youngsters out [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/796">TS</a>]

00:13:19   there who are listening to us old people [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/799">TS</a>]

00:13:20   talk about things [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/800">TS</a>]

00:13:22   Matthew Perry one of the stars of the [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/802">TS</a>]

00:13:24   90s sitcom huge hit sitcom Friends and [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/804">TS</a>]

00:13:27   of course the friends were participants [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/807">TS</a>]

00:13:29   in launch promotional video for windows [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/809">TS</a>]

00:13:32   95 so they're soldiers could there be a [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/812">TS</a>]

00:13:35   better person to narrate you will [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/815">TS</a>]

00:13:37   respect you of course no Matthew Perry [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/817">TS</a>]

00:13:39   as the star of the [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/819">TS</a>]

00:13:40   Odd Couple to ensure and we know you [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/820">TS</a>]

00:13:42   probably know studio 60 on the Sunset [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/822">TS</a>]

00:13:45   Strip [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/825">TS</a>]

00:13:46   there you go go on to think about me mr. [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/826">TS</a>]

00:13:52   sunshine you mean mr. Sunshine's which I [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/832">TS</a>]

00:13:54   like mr. sunshine and selling shine [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/834">TS</a>]

00:13:57   yeah but at ten years later Copeland [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/837">TS</a>]

00:14:01   came out with a book called jpod which [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/841">TS</a>]

00:14:04   was basically this book kind of [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/844">TS</a>]

00:14:06   rewritten except with different you know [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/846">TS</a>]

00:14:10   different names and a different software [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/850">TS</a>]

00:14:12   thing that they're working on but it's [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/852">TS</a>]

00:14:14   pretty much the same thing and it wasn't [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/854">TS</a>]

00:14:17   anywhere near as good but they did turn [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/857">TS</a>]

00:14:20   that into a TV show which got canceled [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/860">TS</a>]

00:14:22   huh oh no little silicon valley could [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/862">TS</a>]

00:14:24   people uh yeah [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/864">TS</a>]

00:14:26   Silicon Valley and halt and catch fire [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/866">TS</a>]

00:14:28   well that ties into tracy kidder [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/868">TS</a>]

00:14:30   Sullivan machine so we can get to that a [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/870">TS</a>]

00:14:32   little bit [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/872">TS</a>]

00:14:32   mm no I did like the subplot about all [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/872">TS</a>]

00:14:36   the nerds suddenly becoming really into [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/876">TS</a>]

00:14:38   physical fitness [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/878">TS</a>]

00:14:40   oh god that was some funny is it kind of [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/880">TS</a>]

00:14:43   predicted tim ferriss in my opinion and [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/883">TS</a>]

00:14:46   body hacking because they spend a lot of [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/886">TS</a>]

00:14:48   time on my watch is telling me to stand [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/888">TS</a>]

00:14:49   up I'll be right back [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/889">TS</a>]

00:14:50   yeah erin and i will say he does a [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/890">TS</a>]

00:14:55   I mean he basically this book is in blog [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/895">TS</a>]

00:14:58   format before blog was a word or weblog [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/898">TS</a>]

00:15:01   was a word and and they're working on a [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/901">TS</a>]

00:15:04   software thing that's basically [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/904">TS</a>]

00:15:06   minecraft you know so so it's it's a [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/906">TS</a>]

00:15:10   little predictive just not as productive [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/910">TS</a>]

00:15:12   as i think it thinks it is you exactly [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/912">TS</a>]

00:15:14   and quit using the Chicago font know gah [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/914">TS</a>]

00:15:17   we have you would that will see that [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/917">TS</a>]

00:15:19   says nineteen nineties like nothing else [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/919">TS</a>]

00:15:21   because when you're on your mac with a [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/921">TS</a>]

00:15:23   stupid little cow daughter was called [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/923">TS</a>]

00:15:25   don't know [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/925">TS</a>]

00:15:26   Thank You dog chow I'm sorry I didn't [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/926">TS</a>]

00:15:28   mean to insult your dog catcher Jason [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/928">TS</a>]

00:15:29   and you know you owe my guard towers [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/929">TS</a>]

00:15:31   name is claris park dog park cow but [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/931">TS</a>]

00:15:34   he's not my dog you open up like your [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/934">TS</a>]

00:15:36   your text document and it was always the [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/936">TS</a>]

00:15:38   default plant so even the weather TV [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/938">TS</a>]

00:15:41   faulted to macintosh but being 96 I'm [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/941">TS</a>]

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00:18:15   engineering cultures of the time and [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/1095">TS</a>]

00:18:17   what the stakes were and the egos [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/1097">TS</a>]

00:18:19   involved in all of the steps then the [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/1099">TS</a>]

00:18:21   entire TV series from AMC makes so much [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/1101">TS</a>]

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00:18:27   copies of the single look read this and [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/1107">TS</a>]

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00:18:39   really is kind of the ur-text for for [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/1119">TS</a>]

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00:18:56   stakes were in this is how leaves them [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/1136">TS</a>]

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00:18:59   interesting about these books in the [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/1139">TS</a>]

00:19:01   nineties is all of the mask in some way [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/1141">TS</a>]

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00:19:04   how is this aggressive use of technology [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/1144">TS</a>]

00:19:07   changing the way that we interact with [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/1147">TS</a>]

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00:19:17   about technology of course right like it [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/1157">TS</a>]

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00:19:25   technology description there's accurate [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/1165">TS</a>]

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00:19:30   like the Securities whole thing about [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/1170">TS</a>]

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00:20:27   learn a little bit about the industry [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/1227">TS</a>]

00:20:28   and do some interviews and write a book [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/1228">TS</a>]

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00:22:07   that's like a network is now and end and [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/1327">TS</a>]

00:22:10   but then it was novel and now it's not [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/1330">TS</a>]

00:22:11   and we get to Cuckoo's egg gets it i [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/1331">TS</a>]

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00:22:22   perspective of 20 years later it's a [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/1342">TS</a>]

00:22:24   it's like yep that's that's that's not [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/1344">TS</a>]

00:22:27   special that's just normal [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/1347">TS</a>]

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00:22:32   machine is that this guy you didn't [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/1352">TS</a>]

00:22:34   think he did anything but he was a great [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/1354">TS</a>]

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00:22:39   work 20 hours a day and give up their [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/1359">TS</a>]

00:22:41   social life he lied to them if you can [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/1361">TS</a>]

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00:22:46   employers in the town that they wouldn't [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/1366">TS</a>]

00:22:48   hire them away and we do that now I'm [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/1368">TS</a>]

00:22:50   like these guys were really being taken [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/1370">TS</a>]

00:22:53   advantage of [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/1373">TS</a>]

00:22:54   yeah no it's not you mentioned just nine [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/1374">TS</a>]

00:22:57   west glad there's actually a really [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/1377">TS</a>]

00:23:00   great piece she wrote about all of the [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/1380">TS</a>]

00:23:01   technology traps and pitfalls that she's [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/1381">TS</a>]

00:23:04   run into since her dad died because he's [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/1384">TS</a>]

00:23:06   had some heat he had some really arcane [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/1386">TS</a>]

00:23:09   automated home security systems systems [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/1389">TS</a>]

00:23:11   that she that she's had to figure out [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/1391">TS</a>]

00:23:14   how to debug and getting into his [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/1394">TS</a>]

00:23:16   computers husbands and in dealing with [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/1396">TS</a>]

00:23:18   his digital ephemera has has been just [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/1398">TS</a>]

00:23:20   like I rolling Lee mind-bogglingly [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/1400">TS</a>]

00:23:24   difficult i'll have to dig up the piece [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/1404">TS</a>]

00:23:25   because i read it and i thought oh my [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/1405">TS</a>]

00:23:27   god this is something we're all gonna [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/1407">TS</a>]

00:23:28   have to do that thats whats the cross of [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/1408">TS</a>]

00:23:31   house and sold a new machine she's [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/1411">TS</a>]

00:23:33   dealing with the soul of a old house [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/1413">TS</a>]

00:23:34   yea though I can i briefly mention about [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/1414">TS</a>]

00:23:37   soul of a new machine there is a living [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/1417">TS</a>]

00:23:40   computer museum in Seattle that has one [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/1420">TS</a>]

00:23:43   of the machines they're building in this [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/1423">TS</a>]

00:23:45   book along with a bunch of other old [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/1425">TS</a>]

00:23:47   nonsense like all tears and PDP's have [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/1427">TS</a>]

00:23:52   not going to play with them yet but I'm [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/1432">TS</a>]

00:23:53   going to someday i like how you refer to [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/1433">TS</a>]

00:23:56   that we just talk about this book which [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/1436">TS</a>]

00:23:58   is basically oh and here's how he [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/1438">TS</a>]

00:23:59   motivated people to work crazy hours and [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/1439">TS</a>]

00:24:01   this was their life's work the poor [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/1441">TS</a>]

00:24:02   blood sweat and tears into and then you [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/1442">TS</a>]

00:24:04   dismiss like another undocumented group [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/1444">TS</a>]

00:24:07   of people on their life works out it's a [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/1447">TS</a>]

00:24:08   bunch of nonsense that's what is my [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/1448">TS</a>]

00:24:11   problem with the hungry caterpillar at [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/1451">TS</a>]

00:24:13   the end of another variable maybe [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/1453">TS</a>]

00:24:14   they're mixed up the mixed-up chameleon [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/1454">TS</a>]

00:24:17   at the end it's like he gets the fly but [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/1457">TS</a>]

00:24:19   don't you feel the fight feel bad for [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/1459">TS</a>]

00:24:21   the fly [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/1461">TS</a>]

00:24:21   well Lisa you read this book named the [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/1461">TS</a>]

00:24:24   computer they're working on the focus of [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/1464">TS</a>]

00:24:26   everybody's lives they didn't they they [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/1466">TS</a>]

00:24:30   named it the very they redeem at the [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/1470">TS</a>]

00:24:32   very end because it's a the eclipse that [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/1472">TS</a>]

00:24:34   it's the Eagle first isn't right [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/1474">TS</a>]

00:24:37   yes nice to be honest i had never heard [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/1477">TS</a>]

00:24:40   of it in the wild although in my defense [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/1480">TS</a>]

00:24:41   like this was all taking place back [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/1481">TS</a>]

00:24:44   before computers a enter the Schmeisser [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/1484">TS</a>]

00:24:47   household your house it's not a [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/1487">TS</a>]

00:24:49   historically important computer at all [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/1489">TS</a>]

00:24:51   like salads this book although what did [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/1491">TS</a>]

00:24:54   really amusing when i first started [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/1494">TS</a>]

00:24:55   reading it is when i first started [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/1495">TS</a>]

00:24:57   learning about computers as an [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/1497">TS</a>]

00:24:59   elementary school my parents had both [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/1499">TS</a>]

00:25:00   worked with computers in the sixties and [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/1500">TS</a>]

00:25:02   seventies and what they had said very [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/1502">TS</a>]

00:25:04   tall Solomon other computers and they [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/1504">TS</a>]

00:25:06   live in jet rooms because they're just [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/1506">TS</a>]

00:25:08   so big and they require so much [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/1508">TS</a>]

00:25:09   processing power and there are many [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/1509">TS</a>]

00:25:11   computers but the theme is really [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/1511">TS</a>]

00:25:12   exciting are microcomputers and they had [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/1512">TS</a>]

00:25:14   that very careful gradation of size and [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/1514">TS</a>]

00:25:17   as i was reading this book I thought to [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/1517">TS</a>]

00:25:19   myself because I i was reading it on on [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/1519">TS</a>]

00:25:21   my laptop computer with my phone next to [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/1521">TS</a>]

00:25:24   me and I thought my phone [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/1524">TS</a>]

00:25:26   what would you call that a nano computer [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/1526">TS</a>]

00:25:28   at this point it's it's impossible you [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/1528">TS</a>]

00:25:29   know the complete the computers have [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/1529">TS</a>]

00:25:31   gotten powerful and smaller and but at [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/1531">TS</a>]

00:25:33   one point this was the the reigning [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/1533">TS</a>]

00:25:35   paradigm was computer sick up rooms many [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/1535">TS</a>]

00:25:38   computers maybe not so much and then [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/1538">TS</a>]

00:25:39   microcomputers will sit on people's [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/1539">TS</a>]

00:25:41   desks and it's very exciting and [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/1541">TS</a>]

00:25:42   empowering right [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/1542">TS</a>]

00:25:44   oh I I remember standing at the Air and [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/1544">TS</a>]

00:25:46   Space Museum [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/1546">TS</a>]

00:25:47   an iphone in my hand and the 13 year old [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/1547">TS</a>]

00:25:50   who was younger the time looking from [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/1550">TS</a>]

00:25:52   the iphone to the space capsule into the [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/1552">TS</a>]

00:25:55   iphone into the space capsule little [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/1555">TS</a>]

00:25:57   plaque that says this is how much [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/1557">TS</a>]

00:25:58   computing power this before absol had [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/1558">TS</a>]

00:26:00   and it was less than like a timex [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/1560">TS</a>]

00:26:02   sinclair which shito what's in my hand [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/1562">TS</a>]

00:26:05   is infinitely larger and bigger and you [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/1565">TS</a>]

00:26:09   know and and he blew his mind you know [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/1569">TS</a>]

00:26:11   it's it's it's stunning what you think [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/1571">TS</a>]

00:26:15   about how much casual computing power we [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/1575">TS</a>]

00:26:16   have at our fingertips you know and that [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/1576">TS</a>]

00:26:20   these books are also really handy [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/1580">TS</a>]

00:26:21   reminder of how far we have come and how [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/1581">TS</a>]

00:26:25   fast and what a comparatively short time [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/1585">TS</a>]

00:26:28   they still seem to load slow that's the [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/1588">TS</a>]

00:26:30   thing even have to ask [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/1590">TS</a>]

00:26:31   maybe that's their so it doesn't blow [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/1591">TS</a>]

00:26:33   our minds with your parents actually [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/1593">TS</a>]

00:26:35   remember it took me five minutes to turn [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/1595">TS</a>]

00:26:38   on this magical box all this computing [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/1598">TS</a>]

00:26:42   power and we spend it making podcasts [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/1602">TS</a>]

00:26:44   and quantity George Jetson ashley is the [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/1604">TS</a>]

00:26:48   i push the button twice today Jane have [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/1608">TS</a>]

00:26:53   you stopped this craziest great thing [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/1613">TS</a>]

00:26:55   yeah I let's talk about hackers and [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/1615">TS</a>]

00:27:00   leaving and I realized i have fond [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/1620">TS</a>]

00:27:02   memories of reading this book on a trip [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/1622">TS</a>]

00:27:05   I took to New York when I was in grad [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/1625">TS</a>]

00:27:07   school so I remember like riding the [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/1627">TS</a>]

00:27:09   train from out of New York City to white [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/1629">TS</a>]

00:27:12   plains and i was reading hackers by [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/1632">TS</a>]

00:27:13   Steven Levy and i don't know why that [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/1633">TS</a>]

00:27:15   place is it in 1993 i guess so i hope [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/1635">TS</a>]

00:27:18   you are reading a dial-up connection a [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/1638">TS</a>]

00:27:19   prodigy that that would have been [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/1639">TS</a>]

00:27:21   fitting well yes I might my order for my [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/1641">TS</a>]

00:27:24   first uh no I just taken delivery of my [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/1644">TS</a>]

00:27:26   first laptop mind my powerbook once [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/1646">TS</a>]

00:27:30   everything i had so i just gotten so [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/1650">TS</a>]

00:27:34   Steven Levy who now writes for medium i [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/1654">TS</a>]

00:27:37   guess and a thing for a major i guess [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/1657">TS</a>]

00:27:40   and yeah they're good [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/1660">TS</a>]

00:27:43   um and then before that worked wired in [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/1663">TS</a>]

00:27:45   Newsweek and has written many many books [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/1665">TS</a>]

00:27:49   about technology I think this is his [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/1669">TS</a>]

00:27:51   first gosh 1984 it was written on ya [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/1671">TS</a>]

00:27:56   go it's yeah I read it in grad school as [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/1676">TS</a>]

00:27:58   part of the course that we did on [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/1678">TS</a>]

00:28:00   culture and computers [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/1680">TS</a>]

00:28:01   yeah so this this is a this is the the [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/1681">TS</a>]

00:28:04   heroes of the computer revolution and it [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/1684">TS</a>]

00:28:06   is definitely the the old the old days [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/1686">TS</a>]

00:28:09   the old days of computers & and i have [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/1689">TS</a>]

00:28:12   to say that that is looking back at it [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/1692">TS</a>]

00:28:15   it's not as as compelling a story as [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/1695">TS</a>]

00:28:19   leave his books since have been so I [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/1699">TS</a>]

00:28:22   think he was still getting his feet wet [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/1702">TS</a>]

00:28:23   as a writer and some and honestly some [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/1703">TS</a>]

00:28:26   of the subject matter is kind of [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/1706">TS</a>]

00:28:28   esoteric there's a lot of 14 there's a [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/1708">TS</a>]

00:28:31   lot of love for MIT hackers and there's [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/1711">TS</a>]

00:28:33   a lot of richard stallman at mrs. [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/1713">TS</a>]

00:28:36   America and maybe it was a lot of [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/1716">TS</a>]

00:28:38   richard stallman it was a Christmas [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/1718">TS</a>]

00:28:40   story i find it interesting that so much [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/1720">TS</a>]

00:28:43   of some there's so much emphasis on the [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/1723">TS</a>]

00:28:46   Massachusetts nerd corridor in a lot of [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/1726">TS</a>]

00:28:48   these early books and i find it [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/1728">TS</a>]

00:28:51   interesting especially when you consider [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/1731">TS</a>]

00:28:53   like how much modern computer culture [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/1733">TS</a>]

00:28:57   popped up out of the west coast you have [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/1737">TS</a>]

00:28:58   like there's a brief mention of the well [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/1738">TS</a>]

00:29:01   but elantra remember those are what's [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/1741">TS</a>]

00:29:03   the reason was that mentioned in there [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/1743">TS</a>]

00:29:05   was a reason with all that was going on [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/1745">TS</a>]

00:29:07   the been the one they call that the Ring [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/1747">TS</a>]

00:29:08   Road the route 128 around ya around [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/1748">TS</a>]

00:29:11   Boston east coast bias thing you know [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/1751">TS</a>]

00:29:13   Stephen Levy's from Massachusetts nobody [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/1753">TS</a>]

00:29:16   was wearing a digital equipment [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/1756">TS</a>]

00:29:17   corporation bunch of customers with [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/1757">TS</a>]

00:29:19   Charlotte that's why i DG was I mean [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/1759">TS</a>]

00:29:21   that the ideapad McGovern stuff i mean [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/1761">TS</a>]

00:29:23   they they made great headway on the fact [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/1763">TS</a>]

00:29:25   that they were these big computer [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/1765">TS</a>]

00:29:27   companies sixties and seventies with [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/1767">TS</a>]

00:29:30   mainframes and on all that out in the [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/1770">TS</a>]

00:29:32   massachusetts area by Emerson armonk and [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/1772">TS</a>]

00:29:35   pepsi and so forth wasn't sea rocks out [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/1775">TS</a>]

00:29:38   there too [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/1778">TS</a>]

00:29:39   yes Xeroxes in remarks was in armonk I [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/1779">TS</a>]

00:29:41   think so [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/1781">TS</a>]

00:29:42   upstate New York migrate my grandfather [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/1782">TS</a>]

00:29:46   worked for IBM during the war he know [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/1786">TS</a>]

00:29:48   sorry [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/1788">TS</a>]

00:29:49   yeah but yeah I don't remember if it [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/1789">TS</a>]

00:29:51   wasn't it wasn't like the military [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/1791">TS</a>]

00:29:52   economy internal why there was a reason [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/1792">TS</a>]

00:29:54   there was a reason that was happening [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/1794">TS</a>]

00:29:56   there like my no I'm gonna go to East [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/1796">TS</a>]

00:29:58   Coast media bias discuss media bias is a [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/1798">TS</a>]

00:30:01   handy is a handy all just wave your hand [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/1801">TS</a>]

00:30:03   and say dismissive the East Coast media [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/1803">TS</a>]

00:30:04   bias there were no many computer [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/1804">TS</a>]

00:30:06   companies like in California [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/1806">TS</a>]

00:30:08   no this one this was I think interesting [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/1808">TS</a>]

00:30:09   about how we think of technology today [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/1809">TS</a>]

00:30:11   is that in these early days in the [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/1811">TS</a>]

00:30:12   seventies and eighties the the the [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/1812">TS</a>]

00:30:14   balance had not tipped to silicon valley [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/1814">TS</a>]

00:30:16   right this one now and i literally tip [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/1816">TS</a>]

00:30:19   to software when you think about it was [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/1819">TS</a>]

00:30:20   like renovation yeah well liked in for [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/1820">TS</a>]

00:30:23   people who haven't read it hackers [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/1823">TS</a>]

00:30:25   contains the story of the first people [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/1825">TS</a>]

00:30:27   to actually try to make money selling [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/1827">TS</a>]

00:30:28   software it turns out to be Bill Gates [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/1828">TS</a>]

00:30:30   and Paul Allen yeah so so ladies book [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/1830">TS</a>]

00:30:34   there's a lot of this kind of stuff that [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/1834">TS</a>]

00:30:35   is completely foreign even to me i mean [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/1835">TS</a>]

00:30:37   i first got access to a VAX system at [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/1837">TS</a>]

00:30:41   UCSD in 1982 fall of 88 [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/1841">TS</a>]

00:30:45   so I'd never sewed this stuff the early [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/1845">TS</a>]

00:30:49   sort of seventies early internet early [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/1849">TS</a>]

00:30:52   terminals and and all that was complete [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/1852">TS</a>]

00:30:56   complete you know its way before my time [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/1856">TS</a>]

00:30:58   and it sort of fascinating these are the [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/1858">TS</a>]

00:31:00   people for whom there was no platform to [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/1860">TS</a>]

00:31:02   build on [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/1862">TS</a>]

00:31:03   they were kind of building the platforms [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/1863">TS</a>]

00:31:05   and you got and their stories in there [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/1865">TS</a>]

00:31:06   about the homebrew Computer Club which [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/1866">TS</a>]

00:31:09   of course famously is a you know Steve [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/1869">TS</a>]

00:31:11   Wozniak was a part of and they're [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/1871">TS</a>]

00:31:12   building circuit boards and you know i [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/1872">TS</a>]

00:31:14   would have been a terrible computer nerd [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/1874">TS</a>]

00:31:16   in the seventies because I don't know [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/1876">TS</a>]

00:31:17   how to solder thanks and yeah I think [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/1877">TS</a>]

00:31:20   it's really interesting to think about [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/1880">TS</a>]

00:31:21   the fact that a lot of computing culture [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/1881">TS</a>]

00:31:26   came out of model railroad nerds [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/1886">TS</a>]

00:31:28   is that crazy they were building [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/1888">TS</a>]

00:31:30   controllers yeah there were the two [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/1890">TS</a>]

00:31:32   kinds of railroad nerves the kinds that [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/1892">TS</a>]

00:31:34   like the stuff above the table perfect [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/1894">TS</a>]

00:31:36   little models of trains and trees and [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/1896">TS</a>]

00:31:39   the guys like this nothing to know the [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/1899">TS</a>]

00:31:41   table where you had to figure out how [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/1901">TS</a>]

00:31:43   all the intersections woodwork and they [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/1903">TS</a>]

00:31:45   got to rewire things all night [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/1905">TS</a>]

00:31:47   this one you know I wasn't a computer [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/1907">TS</a>]

00:31:49   club in 1979 because there was a [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/1909">TS</a>]

00:31:52   computer store not far from my house and [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/1912">TS</a>]

00:31:54   they adopted because I was such a giant [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/1914">TS</a>]

00:31:55   nerd for a while that's where i got my [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/1915">TS</a>]

00:31:58   ohio scientific computer from they sold [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/1918">TS</a>]

00:31:59   apples and so forth and all the guys [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/1919">TS</a>]

00:32:01   they were much you know older they're [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/1921">TS</a>]

00:32:03   from there was a teenager their twenties [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/1923">TS</a>]

00:32:05   to their you know fifties or sixties and [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/1925">TS</a>]

00:32:07   there was a lot of hardware stuff a [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/1927">TS</a>]

00:32:09   number like no one time they're trying [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/1929">TS</a>]

00:32:11   to figure out some this dynamically [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/1931">TS</a>]

00:32:12   refreshing ran this super cool new thing [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/1932">TS</a>]

00:32:14   there's something wrong with writing [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/1934">TS</a>]

00:32:16   machine code to try to figure it out [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/1936">TS</a>]

00:32:17   there was one [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/1937">TS</a>]

00:32:18   bit that was broken so it would flip [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/1938">TS</a>]

00:32:20   from 0 to 1 it wouldn't be able to [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/1940">TS</a>]

00:32:22   refresh me at work around like that was [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/1942">TS</a>]

00:32:24   the kind of stuff you were doing in [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/1944">TS</a>]

00:32:26   1979-80 that's a kid is like it was it [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/1946">TS</a>]

00:32:28   was fun yet soldering irons and you know [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/1948">TS</a>]

00:32:31   you're working in assembly and things [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/1951">TS</a>]

00:32:32   like that it's very down to the you know [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/1952">TS</a>]

00:32:34   the metal anytime is the potential for [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/1954">TS</a>]

00:32:37   physical destruction is exciting [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/1957">TS</a>]

00:32:39   yeah burn things yeah computers don't [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/1959">TS</a>]

00:32:41   catch on fire like they used to you know [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/1961">TS</a>]

00:32:43   another really interesting thing and [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/1963">TS</a>]

00:32:45   hackers is the is the software story [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/1965">TS</a>]

00:32:47   especially at and you know warms my [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/1967">TS</a>]

00:32:51   heart [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/1971">TS</a>]

00:32:52   sierra on-line one of the first scooter [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/1972">TS</a>]

00:32:55   gaming and tech companies and Ken [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/1975">TS</a>]

00:32:57   Roberta Williams from there there read [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/1977">TS</a>]

00:32:59   out in what coarsegold or or uh where [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/1979">TS</a>]

00:33:02   it's up in the foothills there's likely [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/1982">TS</a>]

00:33:04   a couple places that they that they [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/1984">TS</a>]

00:33:05   incorporated near Yosemite not too far [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/1985">TS</a>]

00:33:08   from where I grew up and that's where [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/1988">TS</a>]

00:33:10   see you're online was and I made altima [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/1990">TS</a>]

00:33:12   and and a whole bunch of other games [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/1992">TS</a>]

00:33:15   oakhurst was the famous I think [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/1995">TS</a>]

00:33:17   incorporated location oakhurst [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/1997">TS</a>]

00:33:19   california and i think that was leaving [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/1999">TS</a>]

00:33:21   trying to get away from the MIT I think [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/2001">TS</a>]

00:33:23   so guess because he could have if you [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/2003">TS</a>]

00:33:25   need a game company he could have [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/2005">TS</a>]

00:33:26   written about infocomm but then a bunch [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/2006">TS</a>]

00:33:29   of MIT guys another day another group of [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/2009">TS</a>]

00:33:32   any guys as MIT guys everywhere huh [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/2012">TS</a>]

00:33:35   so instead they you know they talk about [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/2015">TS</a>]

00:33:36   sierra on-line and and some other stuff [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/2016">TS</a>]

00:33:39   like that which was which was fun [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/2019">TS</a>]

00:33:41   because I play actually played those [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/2021">TS</a>]

00:33:42   games and so to see those people trying [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/2022">TS</a>]

00:33:44   to make it and again software in those [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/2024">TS</a>]

00:33:46   days with problematic just like it is [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/2026">TS</a>]

00:33:47   today piracy was a thing then is a thing [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/2027">TS</a>]

00:33:49   now again saying a lot of the issues [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/2029">TS</a>]

00:33:52   that come up in these books we we not [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/2032">TS</a>]

00:33:54   knowingly are like yes that would [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/2034">TS</a>]

00:33:56   continue to be an issue to the present [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/2036">TS</a>]

00:33:58   day maybe not so much for catching on [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/2038">TS</a>]

00:33:59   fire [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/2039">TS</a>]

00:34:00   yeah but like i said that i love this [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/2040">TS</a>]

00:34:04   book really enjoy the many kinds of [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/2044">TS</a>]

00:34:09   weirdo that led to her community culture [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/2049">TS</a>]

00:34:12   i do wish there was more california in [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/2052">TS</a>]

00:34:15   it [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/2055">TS</a>]

00:34:15   the people at berkeley i think [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/2055">TS</a>]

00:34:19   especially because of the well did more [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/2059">TS</a>]

00:34:22   to influence how the internet thinks now [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/2062">TS</a>]

00:34:25   may I think they're going to build the [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/2065">TS</a>]

00:34:27   computers but only so much you can stick [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/2067">TS</a>]

00:34:29   in a book that's a really [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/2069">TS</a>]

00:34:31   interesting insight Monty the idea that [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/2071">TS</a>]

00:34:33   the people who kind of operated on top [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/2073">TS</a>]

00:34:34   and use the tools did more influence [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/2074">TS</a>]

00:34:36   than the people actually built the tools [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/2076">TS</a>]

00:34:38   so a book like where wizard stay up late [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/2078">TS</a>]

00:34:40   which wasn't in the in the Charter for [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/2080">TS</a>]

00:34:42   this can be happier Matthew lion book [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/2082">TS</a>]

00:34:44   that is the that is a good origins of [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/2084">TS</a>]

00:34:46   the internet book there there are a [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/2086">TS</a>]

00:34:49   bunch of other other sort of similar [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/2089">TS</a>]

00:34:51   similar books but I think you're right [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/2091">TS</a>]

00:34:52   you're right about that this is a dense [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/2092">TS</a>]

00:34:54   book on lots it's like there's a lot to [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/2094">TS</a>]

00:34:58   my paper back it's like the type is not [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/2098">TS</a>]

00:35:00   very big and there are a whole lot of [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/2100">TS</a>]

00:35:01   pages so there's a whole lot of [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/2101">TS</a>]

00:35:02   different stories of of this history [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/2102">TS</a>]

00:35:06   alright can I talk about the Cuckoo's [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/2106">TS</a>]

00:35:08   egg please i love that book so much so [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/2108">TS</a>]

00:35:12   I'll i do too i love tokens egg and when [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/2112">TS</a>]

00:35:15   we had the chance to revisit it here [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/2115">TS</a>]

00:35:19   I jumped at the chance to go back and [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/2119">TS</a>]

00:35:21   reread it i don't read a lot of books [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/2121">TS</a>]

00:35:23   it helps that I forgotten everything [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/2123">TS</a>]

00:35:25   that happened in it so i got to be I got [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/2125">TS</a>]

00:35:28   to enjoy that story again for those who [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/2128">TS</a>]

00:35:31   haven't read it the Cuckoo's egg it's a [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/2131">TS</a>]

00:35:32   mystery [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/2132">TS</a>]

00:35:33   essentially it's a it's a mystery story [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/2133">TS</a>]

00:35:35   of a guy cliff Stoll is Berkeley hippie [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/2135">TS</a>]

00:35:38   right spike to work at uphill to the [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/2138">TS</a>]

00:35:42   Lawrence Berkeley Laboratory he's an [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/2142">TS</a>]

00:35:44   astrophysicist he's basically just doing [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/2144">TS</a>]

00:35:46   this is a day job in between star gigs [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/2146">TS</a>]

00:35:48   yeah they basically lost if they didn't [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/2148">TS</a>]

00:35:51   have an astro a uh an astronomy job for [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/2151">TS</a>]

00:35:54   him and so we they tried to keep his job [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/2154">TS</a>]

00:35:56   they transferred him to do I t even [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/2156">TS</a>]

00:35:59   though he was not really an IT guy and [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/2159">TS</a>]

00:36:00   there were the two kind of like stuffy [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/2160">TS</a>]

00:36:02   IT guys and at the Lawrence Berkeley Lab [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/2162">TS</a>]

00:36:04   but they let him you know they let him [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/2164">TS</a>]

00:36:06   he knew he knew a little bit about as a [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/2166">TS</a>]

00:36:08   computer's he was a computer like [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/2168">TS</a>]

00:36:11   enthusiasts and he also knew astronomy [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/2171">TS</a>]

00:36:13   and so was not a bad combination but [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/2173">TS</a>]

00:36:15   very early in his time as an IT guy [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/2175">TS</a>]

00:36:18   Lawrence Berkeley Lab they may find a [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/2178">TS</a>]

00:36:20   75-cent discrepancy on their accounting [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/2180">TS</a>]

00:36:25   system which leads him to discover that [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/2185">TS</a>]

00:36:27   there's been a hacker creating accounts [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/2187">TS</a>]

00:36:30   in there in there a computer and then [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/2190">TS</a>]

00:36:32   using the their accounts to tunnel to [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/2192">TS</a>]

00:36:35   other parts of essentially the internet [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/2195">TS</a>]

00:36:38   and this unfolds into a story that's [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/2198">TS</a>]

00:36:43   told across different state [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/2203">TS</a>]

00:36:45   it's and different countries and gets [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/2205">TS</a>]

00:36:47   the CIA the FBI the NSA and most [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/2207">TS</a>]

00:36:50   terrifyingly the German postal service [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/2210">TS</a>]

00:36:53   yeah and follow investigating what's [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/2213">TS</a>]

00:36:55   going on and there's this hippie this [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/2215">TS</a>]

00:36:58   anti-authoritarian hippie is is like I [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/2218">TS</a>]

00:37:01   would normally have nothing to do with [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/2221">TS</a>]

00:37:03   anything but i just want to do the right [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/2223">TS</a>]

00:37:04   thing here and he gets crap from his [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/2224">TS</a>]

00:37:06   friends who are like why are you why are [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/2226">TS</a>]

00:37:07   you meeting with the CIA man this guy is [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/2227">TS</a>]

00:37:10   a hacker guy he's just looking around [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/2230">TS</a>]

00:37:11   he's cool yeah at this point in [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/2231">TS</a>]

00:37:15   computing history everybody felt that [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/2235">TS</a>]

00:37:18   everybody a lot of people help passwords [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/2238">TS</a>]

00:37:20   or wrong man yeah everything should be [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/2240">TS</a>]

00:37:22   everything man that was [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/2242">TS</a>]

00:37:25   government-funded or grant funded so [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/2245">TS</a>]

00:37:26   this gets to like the JSTOR argument [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/2246">TS</a>]

00:37:28   today of all the Aaron Swartz and all [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/2248">TS</a>]

00:37:30   that is like if all this is being funded [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/2250">TS</a>]

00:37:32   by public funds and Republicans it right [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/2252">TS</a>]

00:37:35   to elegant what's being active way [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/2255">TS</a>]

00:37:37   what's being kept secret unless it's you [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/2257">TS</a>]

00:37:38   know super secret government stuff and [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/2258">TS</a>]

00:37:40   then you have you know the war games / [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/2260">TS</a>]

00:37:42   real genius scenario right now I just [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/2262">TS</a>]

00:37:44   think it's interesting that some of the [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/2264">TS</a>]

00:37:46   very same people that were keenly in [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/2266">TS</a>]

00:37:48   favor of everything being opened at the [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/2268">TS</a>]

00:37:50   time have made a 180 degree turn to [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/2270">TS</a>]

00:37:54   being very into cryptography you think [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/2274">TS</a>]

00:37:56   yeah like actually everything's about [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/2276">TS</a>]

00:37:59   privacy the wrong [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/2279">TS</a>]

00:38:01   new plan helps it flips it around though [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/2281">TS</a>]

00:38:03   because the cryptography is to protect [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/2283">TS</a>]

00:38:05   you from the government to protect you [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/2285">TS</a>]

00:38:07   from not play the government from you [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/2287">TS</a>]

00:38:08   all I don't think they made a [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/2288">TS</a>]

00:38:09   fundamental philosophical change but [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/2289">TS</a>]

00:38:11   their tactics area had made from we [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/2291">TS</a>]

00:38:14   don't need passwords to we need [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/2294">TS</a>]

00:38:17   impossible to break passwords it [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/2297">TS</a>]

00:38:20   what I really love about this book is [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/2300">TS</a>]

00:38:21   how effortlessly he weaves his whole [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/2301">TS</a>]

00:38:23   happy birthday hippie existence like the [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/2303">TS</a>]

00:38:25   day he shines off work to go listen to [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/2305">TS</a>]

00:38:27   the Grateful Dead by parking himself on [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/2307">TS</a>]

00:38:29   a hillside and just like taking the [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/2309">TS</a>]

00:38:30   concept for free and there's like a [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/2310">TS</a>]

00:38:32   chapter that ends with his chocolate [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/2312">TS</a>]

00:38:33   chip cookie recipe and there's like an [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/2313">TS</a>]

00:38:36   interlude a free chapter he's like [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/2316">TS</a>]

00:38:38   making his wedding shirt while thinking [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/2318">TS</a>]

00:38:40   about work and I like the moment I [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/2320">TS</a>]

00:38:42   laughed out loud and couldn't stop that [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/2322">TS</a>]

00:38:44   there's a moment where he his shoes are [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/2324">TS</a>]

00:38:46   wet so he decides to dry them in the [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/2326">TS</a>]

00:38:48   microwave LC cloud of smoke and he [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/2328">TS</a>]

00:38:52   throws it throws it the shoes in the [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/2332">TS</a>]

00:38:54   glass of the microwave out onto the [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/2334">TS</a>]

00:38:56   driveway with shatters but then he's [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/2336">TS</a>]

00:38:58   going to [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/2338">TS</a>]

00:38:58   to fix it also we put some vanilla on [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/2338">TS</a>]

00:39:00   the stove and while he's cleaning but he [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/2340">TS</a>]

00:39:02   forgets that he's got the vanilla so [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/2342">TS</a>]

00:39:04   then that burns they decided an apology [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/2344">TS</a>]

00:39:06   to his girlfriend's gonna bake some [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/2346">TS</a>]

00:39:07   cookies but the cookie slide off of the [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/2347">TS</a>]

00:39:09   cookie sheet and onto the bottom and [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/2349">TS</a>]

00:39:10   they burn and this is the state that she [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/2350">TS</a>]

00:39:13   finds him in and it's just it'sit's very [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/2353">TS</a>]

00:39:15   funny also if you work at the at [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/2355">TS</a>]

00:39:16   Lawrence Berkeley Lab you're right [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/2356">TS</a>]

00:39:18   uphill from the Greek Theatre if the [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/2358">TS</a>]

00:39:19   Grateful better playing you're gonna be [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/2359">TS</a>]

00:39:21   listening regardless you might as well [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/2361">TS</a>]

00:39:22   go outside [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/2362">TS</a>]

00:39:24   yeah that's where he was he has he's [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/2364">TS</a>]

00:39:25   like it was a beautiful evening there's [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/2365">TS</a>]

00:39:27   some fog coming in and it just sounded [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/2367">TS</a>]

00:39:29   like such a great life you know it's a [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/2369">TS</a>]

00:39:30   it's a really well written book because [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/2370">TS</a>]

00:39:32   he combines being extremely technical it [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/2372">TS</a>]

00:39:36   spots with being extremely endearing [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/2376">TS</a>]

00:39:39   yes yes I was so much personality in [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/2379">TS</a>]

00:39:42   this book is a great character of of [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/2382">TS</a>]

00:39:44   this book because this is a mystery [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/2384">TS</a>]

00:39:45   story he's the investigator you've got [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/2385">TS</a>]

00:39:47   this [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/2387">TS</a>]

00:39:47   you couldn't write a better story right [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/2387">TS</a>]

00:39:49   it is it is this this shaggy hippie guy [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/2389">TS</a>]

00:39:53   he-he's berkeley guy but he also has a [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/2393">TS</a>]

00:39:55   scientist and he understands this stuff [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/2395">TS</a>]

00:39:57   and he's dogging in pursuit of this and [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/2397">TS</a>]

00:39:59   he knows that the person is doing [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/2399">TS</a>]

00:40:00   something wrong even though a lot of [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/2400">TS</a>]

00:40:03   culture says it's okay he knows that [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/2403">TS</a>]

00:40:05   something is going wrong here and it [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/2405">TS</a>]

00:40:07   leads him down this path where where you [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/2407">TS</a>]

00:40:09   know he's got all of the the nice things [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/2409">TS</a>]

00:40:12   about his character that that his you [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/2412">TS</a>]

00:40:14   know is his girlfriend and that roommate [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/2414">TS</a>]

00:40:16   and and they come up with a whole crazy [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/2416">TS</a>]

00:40:18   plot while while taking a shower and [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/2418">TS</a>]

00:40:20   operation showerhead yeah all this great [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/2420">TS</a>]

00:40:22   stuff Enya and then also you've got the [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/2422">TS</a>]

00:40:24   mystery I mean you it's such a it's a [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/2424">TS</a>]

00:40:26   great combination and it's just so much [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/2426">TS</a>]

00:40:27   about the period where he's like [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/2427">TS</a>]

00:40:30   literally calling up law enforcement [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/2430">TS</a>]

00:40:32   saying hey there people from like we [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/2432">TS</a>]

00:40:35   don't know we're breaking into [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/2435">TS</a>]

00:40:37   government things and doing searches for [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/2437">TS</a>]

00:40:39   four straight nuclear weapons and Star [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/2439">TS</a>]

00:40:42   Wars program and things like that and [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/2442">TS</a>]

00:40:45   the response is are they stealing money [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/2445">TS</a>]

00:40:48   well then we're not interested computer [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/2448">TS</a>]

00:40:49   crime that's not a thing [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/2449">TS</a>]

00:40:51   why did you put those two words together [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/2451">TS</a>]

00:40:53   strangely you can still have that [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/2453">TS</a>]

00:40:54   conversation with law enforcement today [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/2454">TS</a>]

00:40:56   is the amazing art so the more things [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/2456">TS</a>]

00:40:58   change the more they stay the same I [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/2458">TS</a>]

00:40:59   thought I was struck by that there's [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/2459">TS</a>]

00:41:01   still a question of who are the police [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/2461">TS</a>]

00:41:03   of of the internet and the answer is the [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/2463">TS</a>]

00:41:05   kind of aren't any and all that the [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/2465">TS</a>]

00:41:07   tactics have changed the the attitude [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/2467">TS</a>]

00:41:09   the law enforcement often has I [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/2469">TS</a>]

00:41:11   he finds sympathetic people but even [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/2471">TS</a>]

00:41:13   with the sympathetic people he finds are [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/2473">TS</a>]

00:41:15   more concerned about using him to prove [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/2475">TS</a>]

00:41:16   a point which is that there are people [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/2476">TS</a>]

00:41:18   that security is bad like I i love the [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/2478">TS</a>]

00:41:22   fact that he keeps talking about these [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/2482">TS</a>]

00:41:24   systems that all ship with their with [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/2484">TS</a>]

00:41:26   with no passwords they are default [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/2486">TS</a>]

00:41:28   passwords like that's out-of-the-box [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/2488">TS</a>]

00:41:30   they come with fully privilege system [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/2490">TS</a>]

00:41:32   administrator accounts with a stock [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/2492">TS</a>]

00:41:34   password and unless you change it [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/2494">TS</a>]

00:41:37   somebody can just get in so that's bad [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/2497">TS</a>]

00:41:39   but what's even worse is there's a part [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/2499">TS</a>]

00:41:41   of the book where somebody that i think [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/2501">TS</a>]

00:41:43   the the the Air Force talks to somebody [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/2503">TS</a>]

00:41:45   at an Air Force Base and basically says [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/2505">TS</a>]

00:41:47   change all the passwords and six months [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/2507">TS</a>]

00:41:49   later he finds that there's a break in [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/2509">TS</a>]

00:41:52   there and the guys like I told them to [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/2512">TS</a>]

00:41:54   change the passwords did they just [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/2514">TS</a>]

00:41:55   didn't do it well and then you but then [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/2515">TS</a>]

00:41:57   you have every router in America [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/2517">TS</a>]

00:41:58   everyone in the world ships with the [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/2518">TS</a>]

00:42:00   password admin you find things like all [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/2520">TS</a>]

00:42:02   the voting machines in America by some [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/2522">TS</a>]

00:42:04   company has the password 1234 that ever [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/2524">TS</a>]

00:42:06   been changed at the TSA holds up [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/2526">TS</a>]

00:42:09   pictures of their close-up keys for a [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/2529">TS</a>]

00:42:11   photograph of their master luggage keys [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/2531">TS</a>]

00:42:13   like nothing has changed yeah they [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/2533">TS</a>]

00:42:15   actually Madison hack from what i read [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/2535">TS</a>]

00:42:18   happened because their system password [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/2538">TS</a>]

00:42:20   was password 1234 [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/2540">TS</a>]

00:42:22   oh my god and that's our company guys [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/2542">TS</a>]

00:42:24   entire business model is 100-percent [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/2544">TS</a>]

00:42:27   data security here I really i re-read [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/2547">TS</a>]

00:42:30   couch like a few times and I think I [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/2550">TS</a>]

00:42:32   read it last a while ago but I remember [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/2552">TS</a>]

00:42:34   very distinctly I would always liked him [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/2554">TS</a>]

00:42:36   because he was self aware of read books [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/2556">TS</a>]

00:42:38   like that like you read on the jonmar [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/2558">TS</a>]

00:42:40   coughs book or he wrote it with to tomo [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/2560">TS</a>]

00:42:43   show more I which was right let's see [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/2563">TS</a>]

00:42:45   the few years later that was a takedown [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/2565">TS</a>]

00:42:47   about the kevin Mitnick so the thing [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/2567">TS</a>]

00:42:50   there is written to tomah was the guy [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/2570">TS</a>]

00:42:51   who helped take him down and Mark off [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/2571">TS</a>]

00:42:54   came on to write the book and there's a [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/2574">TS</a>]

00:42:56   lot of questions about how particularly [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/2576">TS</a>]

00:42:58   accurate the story is whether Mitnick [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/2578">TS</a>]

00:43:00   actually did you know damages all these [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/2580">TS</a>]

00:43:02   things about you know what he actually [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/2582">TS</a>]

00:43:03   steal using social engineering all that [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/2583">TS</a>]

00:43:05   but i think that book is very serious [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/2585">TS</a>]

00:43:08   it's like there's a sky is running and [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/2588">TS</a>]

00:43:10   we're finding him there's this [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/2590">TS</a>]

00:43:11   relentless pursuer who's a genius [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/2591">TS</a>]

00:43:12   computers like cliff Stoll book is like [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/2592">TS</a>]

00:43:14   I'm is total goofball and he knows any [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/2594">TS</a>]

00:43:17   revels in his own goofiness enjoys it [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/2597">TS</a>]

00:43:19   and he has those coming to [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/2599">TS</a>]

00:43:21   god-knows-where you talk about where you [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/2601">TS</a>]

00:43:22   go you know he's like what am i doing [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/2602">TS</a>]

00:43:24   lawn for [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/2604">TS</a>]

00:43:24   people ask me why my pursuing this so [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/2604">TS</a>]

00:43:27   there's that nice amount of [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/2607">TS</a>]

00:43:28   self-reflection that makes the book [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/2608">TS</a>]

00:43:30   enjoyable gives you a position as a [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/2610">TS</a>]

00:43:31   reader to have sympathy for him and also [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/2611">TS</a>]

00:43:34   in enjoy it but you know I don't know I [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/2614">TS</a>]

00:43:37   think it's that the story as a whole is [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/2617">TS</a>]

00:43:39   you agree with it like something is [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/2619">TS</a>]

00:43:41   wrong here like you know there's [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/2621">TS</a>]

00:43:42   something not right and it should be put [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/2622">TS</a>]

00:43:45   correct but it's very very hard to make [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/2625">TS</a>]

00:43:47   that happen [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/2627">TS</a>]

00:43:48   yeah and it helps that at the end you [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/2628">TS</a>]

00:43:50   find out it's german hackers being paid [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/2630">TS</a>]

00:43:53   by the Russian government that the KGB [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/2633">TS</a>]

00:43:55   KGB are paying for secrets from these [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/2635">TS</a>]

00:43:59   german hackers and in any fantastic [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/2639">TS</a>]

00:44:01   twist they set up so one of my favorite [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/2641">TS</a>]

00:44:04   things in the book is a set of this [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/2644">TS</a>]

00:44:05   operation showerhead where they invent a [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/2645">TS</a>]

00:44:08   character who's a secretary at LBL they [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/2648">TS</a>]

00:44:10   invent an entire division called SDI net [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/2650">TS</a>]

00:44:14   which has strategic defense initiative [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/2654">TS</a>]

00:44:15   is the code for the Ronald Reagan's Star [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/2655">TS</a>]

00:44:17   Wars project so they set this all up [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/2657">TS</a>]

00:44:19   they create I get the sense to that at [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/2659">TS</a>]

00:44:22   this point he his he mentioned it a few [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/2662">TS</a>]

00:44:24   points like he is spending a lot of time [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/2664">TS</a>]

00:44:26   on this because they invent dozens or [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/2666">TS</a>]

00:44:29   hundreds of documents about SDI net just [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/2669">TS</a>]

00:44:31   to create this honey pot and and you [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/2671">TS</a>]

00:44:34   know the hacker seems interested at [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/2674">TS</a>]

00:44:36   first he dumped some of the files you [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/2676">TS</a>]

00:44:38   know he comes back a little bit later [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/2678">TS</a>]

00:44:39   but seems to have lost some interest in [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/2679">TS</a>]

00:44:41   it and then they get a letter for the [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/2681">TS</a>]

00:44:46   fictitious secretary and they're like [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/2686">TS</a>]

00:44:49   what the hell just happened and it's [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/2689">TS</a>]

00:44:51   from most part in pittsburgh [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/2691">TS</a>]

00:44:52   pennsylvania and it's from a guy with a [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/2692">TS</a>]

00:44:54   Hungarian name and it turns out that [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/2694">TS</a>]

00:44:56   he's basically somebody that you know [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/2696">TS</a>]

00:44:58   the KGB checker the KGB called somebody [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/2698">TS</a>]

00:45:01   who call somebody who sends who then [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/2701">TS</a>]

00:45:03   they say mail this letter they hand him [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/2703">TS</a>]

00:45:05   a letter and emails the letter a sign [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/2705">TS</a>]

00:45:08   and mail this and yeah they're checking [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/2708">TS</a>]

00:45:10   up on this on the secrets that are being [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/2710">TS</a>]

00:45:12   sold to them how crazy is that and this [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/2712">TS</a>]

00:45:14   is all just these cookies in Berkeley [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/2714">TS</a>]

00:45:15   who r RA yeah whatever chicken streaker [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/2715">TS</a>]

00:45:19   if we could like get someone in the snag [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/2719">TS</a>]

00:45:21   called Operation showerhead and then it [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/2721">TS</a>]

00:45:22   happens inside go oh my gosh [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/2722">TS</a>]

00:45:24   but that's another funny thing in this [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/2724">TS</a>]

00:45:27   book is that one of the people he meets [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/2727">TS</a>]

00:45:30   one of the spea CIA guys he meets a guy [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/2730">TS</a>]

00:45:33   named Robert Morris who basically him [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/2733">TS</a>]

00:45:35   away [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/2735">TS</a>]

00:45:36   sweeps away and take some somewhere to [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/2736">TS</a>]

00:45:38   meet this and they get and he gets he [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/2738">TS</a>]

00:45:41   gets like a certificate of appreciation [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/2741">TS</a>]

00:45:44   they're like that come on the guy from [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/2744">TS</a>]

00:45:45   berkeley want something he's helped us [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/2745">TS</a>]

00:45:46   out here now that nobody tells the story [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/2746">TS</a>]

00:45:49   about like talking this guy who's got [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/2749">TS</a>]

00:45:50   all these questions about astronomy he's [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/2750">TS</a>]

00:45:52   obviously an astronomy nut and and he [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/2752">TS</a>]

00:45:55   gets the sense like there's always [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/2755">TS</a>]

00:45:56   throughout this information like [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/2756">TS</a>]

00:45:58   astronomy and dealing with the CIA that [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/2758">TS</a>]

00:46:00   the keyhole satellites are floating in [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/2760">TS</a>]

00:46:01   the background there's like nobody talks [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/2761">TS</a>]

00:46:03   about the keyhole satellite but like [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/2763">TS</a>]

00:46:04   imagine what if there was a hubble space [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/2764">TS</a>]

00:46:06   telescope pointing the other way he's [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/2766">TS</a>]

00:46:08   like well that was oh say no more right [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/2768">TS</a>]

00:46:10   so he talks to this robert morris guy [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/2770">TS</a>]

00:46:12   and tells the story about about how he's [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/2772">TS</a>]

00:46:14   a chain smoker any and he drives the [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/2774">TS</a>]

00:46:16   windows rolled up in the winter and in [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/2776">TS</a>]

00:46:18   Maryland and he almost dies in the car [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/2778">TS</a>]

00:46:20   of asphyxiation from this and I and and [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/2780">TS</a>]

00:46:23   you know knowing it now you realize what [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/2783">TS</a>]

00:46:25   he's setting up which is one of the last [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/2785">TS</a>]

00:46:26   chapters of the book and it's kind of [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/2786">TS</a>]

00:46:28   not relevant to his story but it's just [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/2788">TS</a>]

00:46:29   too good not to put in the book is that [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/2789">TS</a>]

00:46:31   Robert Morris his son is the guy who did [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/2791">TS</a>]

00:46:35   the first big internet worm and shut [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/2795">TS</a>]

00:46:38   down like thousands of computers i want [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/2798">TS</a>]

00:46:41   boy was in college and so that at the [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/2801">TS</a>]

00:46:43   end of the book that story comes up and [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/2803">TS</a>]

00:46:45   it's really funny because he said but [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/2805">TS</a>]

00:46:46   you know it's like it's it's that guy's [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/2806">TS</a>]

00:46:48   kid who did this and that guys like he's [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/2808">TS</a>]

00:46:50   a cyber security guy at the CIA but his [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/2810">TS</a>]

00:46:53   kid shut down half the internet with his [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/2813">TS</a>]

00:46:55   with the first internetwork yeah he [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/2815">TS</a>]

00:46:57   sneaks it up on you because it's the [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/2817">TS</a>]

00:46:59   character the father's is called Bob [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/2819">TS</a>]

00:47:02   Morris Morrison exclusively and then [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/2822">TS</a>]

00:47:04   there's a chapter they know that this [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/2824">TS</a>]

00:47:06   new world was created by somebody named [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/2826">TS</a>]

00:47:07   rtm and they can't figure out who that [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/2827">TS</a>]

00:47:09   is [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/2829">TS</a>]

00:47:10   yeah and Bob horses like it's robert [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/2830">TS</a>]

00:47:13   robert morris jr true story but so [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/2833">TS</a>]

00:47:17   that's what that's a crazy thing to so I [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/2837">TS</a>]

00:47:19   i highly recommend this book just [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/2839">TS</a>]

00:47:20   because it's fun but but what's funny [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/2840">TS</a>]

00:47:23   about it is that these issues it's all [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/2843">TS</a>]

00:47:25   different today right i mean now we've [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/2845">TS</a>]

00:47:27   got cryptography the actions that people [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/2847">TS</a>]

00:47:29   like the the hacker who stole is chasing [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/2849">TS</a>]

00:47:33   are far more complicated today they but [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/2853">TS</a>]

00:47:37   you know at the same time they're not [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/2857">TS</a>]

00:47:38   that different the tools are different [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/2858">TS</a>]

00:47:40   the tools are more sophisticated but [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/2860">TS</a>]

00:47:42   it's still a game being played today [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/2862">TS</a>]

00:47:43   it's just being played at a edit on a [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/2863">TS</a>]

00:47:46   different board than it was back then [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/2866">TS</a>]

00:47:48   yeah yeah it's um it's funny how much it [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/2868">TS</a>]

00:47:52   seemed like well that's a blip and [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/2872">TS</a>]

00:47:54   they'll fix it i think even in those [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/2874">TS</a>]

00:47:57   days as like well this is sort of [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/2877">TS</a>]

00:47:58   hilarious in an apt but you know it'll [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/2878">TS</a>]

00:48:01   get better and then the more i was [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/2881">TS</a>]

00:48:02   working you know started doing stuff on [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/2882">TS</a>]

00:48:04   the internet 94 I had my password file [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/2884">TS</a>]

00:48:05   stolen and sent to me and 96 by somebody [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/2885">TS</a>]

00:48:09   and you know I've had peace [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/2889">TS</a>]

00:48:11   yeah i was still encrypted in but you [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/2891">TS</a>]

00:48:13   know was taken and I had some break-ins [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/2893">TS</a>]

00:48:15   in those days which is something that [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/2895">TS</a>]

00:48:16   happens in this book is they don't know [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/2896">TS</a>]

00:48:18   why they're stealing the password files [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/2898">TS</a>]

00:48:19   and they realize they're doing a [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/2899">TS</a>]

00:48:20   dictionary y'all search offline of the [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/2900">TS</a>]

00:48:23   password file and finding the single [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/2903">TS</a>]

00:48:25   word passwords that match some of those [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/2905">TS</a>]

00:48:27   passwords probably still in use [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/2907">TS</a>]

00:48:29   probably oh that's four years later [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/2909">TS</a>]

00:48:30   Robert yeah it's not it's just nothing [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/2910">TS</a>]

00:48:32   got better everything that works because [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/2912">TS</a>]

00:48:34   number lessons learned at that time [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/2914">TS</a>]

00:48:36   wherever really put into effect there [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/2916">TS</a>]

00:48:38   were no regulations and you know [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/2918">TS</a>]

00:48:40   regulations don't work obviously by [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/2920">TS</a>]

00:48:41   themselves but it didn't become like [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/2921">TS</a>]

00:48:43   standard practice it wasn't concerned [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/2923">TS</a>]

00:48:45   computer companies want to make things [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/2925">TS</a>]

00:48:46   as fast as possible [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/2926">TS</a>]

00:48:48   going back to the soul of a new machine [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/2928">TS</a>]

00:48:50   is you gotta ship and you gotta ship [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/2930">TS</a>]

00:48:52   insecurity something you do later years [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/2932">TS</a>]

00:48:54   later and that's still pay the price [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/2934">TS</a>]

00:48:56   one of the biggest disconnect I had to [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/2936">TS</a>]

00:48:58   cover our essay this year the security [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/2938">TS</a>]

00:49:00   conference and one of the biggest [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/2940">TS</a>]

00:49:01   disconnects i had was I would sit in [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/2941">TS</a>]

00:49:03   keynote after keynote where you'd have [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/2943">TS</a>]

00:49:05   sea level executives and CSO and people [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/2945">TS</a>]

00:49:07   who are Troubleshooters and fight the [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/2947">TS</a>]

00:49:09   stuff for living saying there is no [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/2949">TS</a>]

00:49:11   technological solution you have to work [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/2951">TS</a>]

00:49:14   on human behavior and it and then I [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/2954">TS</a>]

00:49:17   would walk onto the show floor and [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/2957">TS</a>]

00:49:19   Moscow knee east and west were both [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/2959">TS</a>]

00:49:22   taken up with with nothing but vendors [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/2962">TS</a>]

00:49:24   promising all manner of hardware and [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/2964">TS</a>]

00:49:25   software solution get your get your [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/2965">TS</a>]

00:49:27   technological solutions i saw a [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/2967">TS</a>]

00:49:29   commercial saying our kids will not have [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/2969">TS</a>]

00:49:30   to worry about passwords at all [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/2970">TS</a>]

00:49:32   well you know what in the RSA thing that [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/2972">TS</a>]

00:49:34   the two that the front that things keep [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/2974">TS</a>]

00:49:36   popping overview of where everyone kept [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/2976">TS</a>]

00:49:37   saying we live in a post node world we [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/2977">TS</a>]

00:49:39   have to assume that anyone anywhere can [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/2979">TS</a>]

00:49:42   leak your information that's that's your [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/2982">TS</a>]

00:49:44   assumption is that your systems are [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/2984">TS</a>]

00:49:45   inherently unsafe because people use [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/2985">TS</a>]

00:49:46   them and that and then they move on to [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/2986">TS</a>]

00:49:49   the only thing you can really do is [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/2989">TS</a>]

00:49:51   invest in human capital human behavior [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/2991">TS</a>]

00:49:53   and you have to work on on behavioral [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/2993">TS</a>]

00:49:55   training because technology can't do [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/2995">TS</a>]

00:49:57   that for people and yet i walked on the [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/2997">TS</a>]

00:49:59   show floor and I thought okay surely [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/2999">TS</a>]

00:50:01   there's some enter [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/3001">TS</a>]

00:50:01   prising consultants or something or like [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/3001">TS</a>]

00:50:03   we dispatch a team of nerds to brainwash [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/3003">TS</a>]

00:50:06   your people into practicing decent [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/3006">TS</a>]

00:50:08   security [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/3008">TS</a>]

00:50:08   no it's all you know install the [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/3008">TS</a>]

00:50:10   software and and you can nanny your [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/3010">TS</a>]

00:50:12   users this way you can monitor that you [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/3012">TS</a>]

00:50:14   can block this you can do that you can [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/3014">TS</a>]

00:50:16   make them change their password to [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/3016">TS</a>]

00:50:17   another 12 character password every two [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/3017">TS</a>]

00:50:19   weeks that will be high security if you [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/3019">TS</a>]

00:50:22   look at you if you look at the Cuckoo's [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/3022">TS</a>]

00:50:24   egg which again highly recommend i think [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/3024">TS</a>]

00:50:27   anybody would like it on the the wood [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/3027">TS</a>]

00:50:31   the lesson I take away from it is it [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/3031">TS</a>]

00:50:33   it's yes it seems kind of like an [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/3033">TS</a>]

00:50:36   innocent time and yet it also says that [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/3036">TS</a>]

00:50:39   in the in 1986 and 87 on the roots you [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/3039">TS</a>]

00:50:44   know on the early internet where there [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/3044">TS</a>]

00:50:48   were you know people had pcs and macs [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/3048">TS</a>]

00:50:50   and stuff but thats so much was going on [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/3050">TS</a>]

00:50:52   in these backs and unix systems that [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/3052">TS</a>]

00:50:53   were out there accent EMS systems that [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/3053">TS</a>]

00:50:56   all of all or most of the problems that [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/3056">TS</a>]

00:50:59   we see today were already there [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/3059">TS</a>]

00:51:02   it's just a matter of degree and that [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/3062">TS</a>]

00:51:04   the world of the world is different and [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/3064">TS</a>]

00:51:07   simpler in some ways back then it was [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/3067">TS</a>]

00:51:10   but it in other ways not different at [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/3070">TS</a>]

00:51:13   all because it's the same issues dogs to [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/3073">TS</a>]

00:51:16   this day about security about the people [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/3076">TS</a>]

00:51:18   problems with security about insecure [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/3078">TS</a>]

00:51:21   software being fundamental problem its [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/3081">TS</a>]

00:51:25   it and organizations being incapable of [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/3085">TS</a>]

00:51:27   handling it and at several points [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/3087">TS</a>]

00:51:29   they're like they just want to shut [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/3089">TS</a>]

00:51:30   their their door to the hacker and they [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/3090">TS</a>]

00:51:32   know the actor will just find other ways [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/3092">TS</a>]

00:51:33   in and they will lose their ability to [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/3093">TS</a>]

00:51:35   to follow him and people and and you [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/3095">TS</a>]

00:51:38   know the functionaries that these [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/3098">TS</a>]

00:51:39   organizations are like I just know i'm [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/3099">TS</a>]

00:51:40   just going to close the hole and move on [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/3100">TS</a>]

00:51:41   with my life and so no you can't but [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/3101">TS</a>]

00:51:44   that and let you know that kind of stuff [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/3104">TS</a>]

00:51:45   still happens today so on that level I [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/3105">TS</a>]

00:51:47   think it's you know it's quaint [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/3107">TS</a>]

00:51:49   technology wise but totally applicable [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/3109">TS</a>]

00:51:52   to the issues that the technology world [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/3112">TS</a>]

00:51:55   faces even today I think can we talk [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/3115">TS</a>]

00:51:58   about a few other books briefly yes [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/3118">TS</a>]

00:51:59   before we do let's talk about who [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/3119">TS</a>]

00:52:01   everything else that's in the idea if [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/3121">TS</a>]

00:52:03   that's any seller or the Attic wherever [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/3123">TS</a>]

00:52:06   you keep your books about technology [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/3126">TS</a>]

00:52:08   from the eighties and nineties but i can [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/3128">TS</a>]

00:52:10   go fast yeah okay well for something [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/3130">TS</a>]

00:52:11   that the media lab post states [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/3131">TS</a>]

00:52:14   sold in the Machine and it predates [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/3134">TS</a>]

00:52:17   microservices Hannah Kash it's actually [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/3137">TS</a>]

00:52:21   kind of the Middle Ages microservice 95 [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/3141">TS</a>]

00:52:23   right media lab is the 88 and Stewart [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/3143">TS</a>]

00:52:27   Brand who is catalog right the media lab [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/3147">TS</a>]

00:52:31   I remember reading this thing and it [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/3151">TS</a>]

00:52:32   blew my mind the late 1980s because it [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/3152">TS</a>]

00:52:35   was about this incredible institute of [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/3155">TS</a>]

00:52:37   the future in which sorry this is the [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/3157">TS</a>]

00:52:39   future is another thing not [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/3159">TS</a>]

00:52:41   yeah and so the yes you read this yes I [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/3161">TS</a>]

00:52:44   understand it's incredible and it [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/3164">TS</a>]

00:52:46   totally shaped and influenced my life [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/3166">TS</a>]

00:52:48   said this is what I want more so than [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/3168">TS</a>]

00:52:50   other books i read it and said this is [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/3170">TS</a>]

00:52:52   what I want I want technology that's [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/3172">TS</a>]

00:52:54   meaningful that has an artistic [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/3174">TS</a>]

00:52:56   component that's something I get my [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/3176">TS</a>]

00:52:58   hands into and that could help change [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/3178">TS</a>]

00:53:00   the world and maybe it's cool but it's [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/3180">TS</a>]

00:53:02   not about money it's about doing things [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/3182">TS</a>]

00:53:04   that are transformative and then I was [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/3184">TS</a>]

00:53:05   lucky enough after college I went to [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/3185">TS</a>]

00:53:08   work for this division of kodak all the [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/3188">TS</a>]

00:53:09   center for creative imaging which was [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/3189">TS</a>]

00:53:11   created specifically to be a little bit [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/3191">TS</a>]

00:53:13   like the media lab without any resources [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/3193">TS</a>]

00:53:15   not the whole story but i gotta have a [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/3195">TS</a>]

00:53:17   little taste of what it was like to be [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/3197">TS</a>]

00:53:19   in a Camelot of like super creative [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/3199">TS</a>]

00:53:21   artistic people coming together an [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/3201">TS</a>]

00:53:22   intersection of Technology culture you [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/3202">TS</a>]

00:53:25   know art and business and it was like oh [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/3205">TS</a>]

00:53:26   you know and that's something i've [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/3206">TS</a>]

00:53:28   wanted to recapture but i think the book [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/3208">TS</a>]

00:53:30   is incredible slice and I just went to [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/3210">TS</a>]

00:53:32   the media lab never been there before i [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/3212">TS</a>]

00:53:33   visited it with a friend whose grad [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/3213">TS</a>]

00:53:35   student their post grad student and he'd [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/3215">TS</a>]

00:53:38   be too around the whole place and it's [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/3218">TS</a>]

00:53:39   you know they had it's bigger it's very [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/3219">TS</a>]

00:53:40   expensive but it continues to further [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/3220">TS</a>]

00:53:42   this mission and really really [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/3222">TS</a>]

00:53:44   interesting stuff continues to come out [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/3224">TS</a>]

00:53:46   of it i just winds up going often more [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/3226">TS</a>]

00:53:48   quickly into commerce than necessarily [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/3228">TS</a>]

00:53:51   having an impact on culture but it still [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/3231">TS</a>]

00:53:53   let's wear a lot of ideas from the [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/3233">TS</a>]

00:53:54   Bitcoin the guy who's the main guy [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/3234">TS</a>]

00:53:56   behind bitcoin now works at MIT because [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/3236">TS</a>]

00:53:58   his group at the media lab because the [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/3238">TS</a>]

00:54:00   group that was supposed to foster [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/3240">TS</a>]

00:54:02   Bitcoin fell apart and Sony labs like [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/3242">TS</a>]

00:54:04   eight you come here with some other [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/3244">TS</a>]

00:54:05   people will do a cryptocurrency group [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/3245">TS</a>]

00:54:07   and we'll just pay for your celery so we [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/3247">TS</a>]

00:54:09   can keep Bitcoin software going someone [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/3249">TS</a>]

00:54:12   and just quickly like being digital by [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/3252">TS</a>]

00:54:14   nicholas negroponte and everything that [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/3254">TS</a>]

00:54:16   was four years ago [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/3256">TS</a>]

00:54:17   yeah about it Sammy lab this is eight [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/3257">TS</a>]

00:54:19   years later he was the head of the media [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/3259">TS</a>]

00:54:20   lab and then drove it through its [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/3260">TS</a>]

00:54:23   tremendous growth there's what the [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/3263">TS</a>]

00:54:24   Dormouse said which is a doormouse said [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/3264">TS</a>]

00:54:27   which is a subtitles how the sixties [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/3267">TS</a>]

00:54:30   counterculture shape the personal [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/3270">TS</a>]

00:54:31   computer industry market value and [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/3271">TS</a>]

00:54:32   marketing 2006 it's a really lovely book [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/3272">TS</a>]

00:54:36   and Stuart brands in there and kevin [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/3276">TS</a>]

00:54:37   kelly and all these interesting people [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/3277">TS</a>]

00:54:39   you know Steve Jobs all the people who [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/3279">TS</a>]

00:54:41   founded companies and it's a look at [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/3281">TS</a>]

00:54:43   like I really legitimate look about how [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/3283">TS</a>]

00:54:45   drugs and a new ways of thinking [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/3285">TS</a>]

00:54:48   actually did open up this does for [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/3288">TS</a>]

00:54:50   people that led directly into stuff that [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/3290">TS</a>]

00:54:53   was commercial and the one thing I'll [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/3293">TS</a>]

00:54:55   say about fake steve jobs his book I [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/3295">TS</a>]

00:54:57   don't necessarily recommend reading [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/3297">TS</a>]

00:54:58   isn't that bad is that I think his non [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/3298">TS</a>]

00:55:01   is fictional book about jobs actually [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/3301">TS</a>]

00:55:04   cracked part of that code in a way that [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/3304">TS</a>]

00:55:06   dormouse is really the nonfiction [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/3306">TS</a>]

00:55:07   version of how you take utopian ideals [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/3307">TS</a>]

00:55:10   and mind explaining expanding I you know [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/3310">TS</a>]

00:55:13   drugs other stuff and you turn it into [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/3313">TS</a>]

00:55:14   something people can hold in their hand [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/3314">TS</a>]

00:55:16   and it has this effect on them as if [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/3316">TS</a>]

00:55:18   they're part of it even though it's just [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/3318">TS</a>]

00:55:19   purely an object so that those are mine [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/3319">TS</a>]

00:55:22   that's my arrangements I've got a book [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/3322">TS</a>]

00:55:24   i'd like to throw in yeah if people [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/3324">TS</a>]

00:55:26   enjoyed hackers and what to really [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/3326">TS</a>]

00:55:28   immerse themselves in these people i [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/3328">TS</a>]

00:55:32   really like the new hackers dictionary [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/3332">TS</a>]

00:55:34   yes the third edition i think is the [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/3334">TS</a>]

00:55:38   last edition that was published as a [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/3338">TS</a>]

00:55:39   book it was edited by eric s Raymond [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/3339">TS</a>]

00:55:41   America he was inexplicably nominated [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/3341">TS</a>]

00:55:44   for best new writer for the hugo this [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/3344">TS</a>]

00:55:46   year based on one short story but [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/3346">TS</a>]

00:55:49   obviously the distance unexplainable but [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/3349">TS</a>]

00:55:52   that's not so fast [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/3352">TS</a>]

00:55:53   that's how about an explainable he wrote [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/3353">TS</a>]

00:55:55   one story anyway it has been [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/3355">TS</a>]

00:55:59   luckily moved online and you can just [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/3359">TS</a>]

00:56:02   wallow in the ridiculous lingo of lots [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/3362">TS</a>]

00:56:07   of different hacker subcultures the sort [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/3367">TS</a>]

00:56:11   of people who look at El Camino rial a [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/3371">TS</a>]

00:56:13   long road in California and say that's [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/3373">TS</a>]

00:56:15   way too long to be a real number and [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/3375">TS</a>]

00:56:18   it's just I'm calling it el camino [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/3378">TS</a>]

00:56:19   bignum because that's the kind of number [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/3379">TS</a>]

00:56:22   that can hold more digits [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/3382">TS</a>]

00:56:25   right by i like how we all decided that [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/3385">TS</a>]

00:56:31   but that it is a great document of the [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/3391">TS</a>]

00:56:37   hackers era people the the only 1 i've [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/3397">TS</a>]

00:56:41   got is back when I got the Cuckoo's egg [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/3401">TS</a>]

00:56:43   and soul of the new machine and all the [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/3403">TS</a>]

00:56:45   other one that I read was the hacker [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/3405">TS</a>]

00:56:47   crackdown law and disorder on the [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/3407">TS</a>]

00:56:49   Electronic Frontier by bruce sterling [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/3409">TS</a>]

00:56:51   i'm gonna have sterling that I don't [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/3411">TS</a>]

00:56:55   remember it at all i think it was like a [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/3415">TS</a>]

00:56:57   federal statute that Bruce Sterling had [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/3417">TS</a>]

00:56:59   to be on everybody's bookshelf from 1992 [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/3419">TS</a>]

00:57:02   1999 that was about the big secret [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/3422">TS</a>]

00:57:04   service attack that led to the eff and [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/3424">TS</a>]

00:57:09   yeah focused on the Steve Jackson games [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/3429">TS</a>]

00:57:11   attack i read a book that was kind of [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/3431">TS</a>]

00:57:13   written attempted to be written the [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/3433">TS</a>]

00:57:14   Spirit of the books are talking about [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/3434">TS</a>]

00:57:16   and it was one of the most depressing [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/3436">TS</a>]

00:57:18   books are written in a while that was [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/3438">TS</a>]

00:57:19   Scott Rosenberg dreaming and code [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/3439">TS</a>]

00:57:21   oh I love that woman it's kinda [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/3441">TS</a>]

00:57:23   depressing because you think about all [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/3443">TS</a>]

00:57:24   of the work that went into it and they [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/3444">TS</a>]

00:57:25   still don't have a complete product and [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/3445">TS</a>]

00:57:27   like any epilogue he's like well i'm [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/3447">TS</a>]

00:57:29   still using google calendar because i [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/3449">TS</a>]

00:57:31   know these guys are smart they worked [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/3451">TS</a>]

00:57:32   really hard but a that because I think [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/3452">TS</a>]

00:57:38   the best explanation for non-programmers [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/3458">TS</a>]

00:57:40   i think a non program could read the [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/3460">TS</a>]

00:57:41   book and go oh this is why software ever [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/3461">TS</a>]

00:57:44   ships [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/3464">TS</a>]

00:57:45   yeah yeah yeah it's it's just it's just [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/3465">TS</a>]

00:57:48   so depressing in a way because you're [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/3468">TS</a>]

00:57:50   you're reading it and you're thinking [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/3470">TS</a>]

00:57:51   about all of the people who poured their [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/3471">TS</a>]

00:57:53   time in their energy and their passion [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/3473">TS</a>]

00:57:55   and they just keep getting tripped up by [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/3475">TS</a>]

00:57:57   out like each other or even things that [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/3477">TS</a>]

00:57:59   are breaking the code or people's [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/3479">TS</a>]

00:58:01   endless quest for perfection like a lot [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/3481">TS</a>]

00:58:03   of this book is about how perfect is the [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/3483">TS</a>]

00:58:04   enemy of good [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/3484">TS</a>]

00:58:06   yes and it's it's it's the kind of book [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/3486">TS</a>]

00:58:09   where if it had come out like in the [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/3489">TS</a>]

00:58:11   eighties and nineties i think a lot of [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/3491">TS</a>]

00:58:12   people like wow those software engineers [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/3492">TS</a>]

00:58:14   will learn their kind of crazy and my [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/3494">TS</a>]

00:58:16   goodness and now you're like oh god yeah [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/3496">TS</a>]

00:58:19   corporate life it's but it was [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/3499">TS</a>]

00:58:22   interesting as it really is written in [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/3502">TS</a>]

00:58:23   the spirit of the books from the [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/3503">TS</a>]

00:58:25   eighties and nineties in this by Scott [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/3505">TS</a>]

00:58:26   Rosenberg who is one of who used to be [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/3506">TS</a>]

00:58:28   like a really big over at salon and they [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/3508">TS</a>]

00:58:32   were like way back in the news they were [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/3512">TS</a>]

00:58:34   kind of spiritual successor to like the [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/3514">TS</a>]

00:58:36   whole Clifford stole we are hippies who [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/3516">TS</a>]

00:58:38   just really [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/3518">TS</a>]

00:58:39   of life in technology and things are [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/3519">TS</a>]

00:58:40   cool man and be suspicious of authority [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/3520">TS</a>]

00:58:43   and I think Rosen you have to look at [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/3523">TS</a>]

00:58:45   the tone rosenberg took and shaping tech [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/3525">TS</a>]

00:58:48   coverage from salon from like the [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/3528">TS</a>]

00:58:49   mid-nineties to that the mid-autumn ease [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/3529">TS</a>]

00:58:51   and and it's very much tied into the [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/3531">TS</a>]

00:58:54   books have been talking about [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/3534">TS</a>]

00:58:55   I only 1i want to mention since we [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/3535">TS</a>]

00:58:58   talked about Steven Levy and I I said [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/3538">TS</a>]

00:59:00   yeah actresses goes I remember all those [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/3540">TS</a>]

00:59:02   super dense i will recommend you i would [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/3542">TS</a>]

00:59:06   insanely great is a great story of the [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/3546">TS</a>]

00:59:09   invention of the Macintosh was that it [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/3549">TS</a>]

00:59:12   is a computer that was used apparently [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/3552">TS</a>]

00:59:15   by people in Microsoft in 1995 I don't [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/3555">TS</a>]

00:59:17   really understand how that could be but [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/3557">TS</a>]

00:59:19   anyway it's a no see if you were [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/3559">TS</a>]

00:59:21   Canadian if you were yes sure it's a [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/3561">TS</a>]

00:59:24   it's a very very good history of the [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/3564">TS</a>]

00:59:26   creation of the mac which we have lots [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/3566">TS</a>]

00:59:28   of great stories and then when you're [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/3568">TS</a>]

00:59:29   done there you can also read full glory [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/3569">TS</a>]

00:59:31   dot-org which has got a bunch of stories [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/3571">TS</a>]

00:59:33   about that same era by the people who [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/3573">TS</a>]

00:59:35   worked on the original mac team and that [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/3575">TS</a>]

00:59:37   got turned into a book that is called [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/3577">TS</a>]

00:59:41   what is it uh-oh it's called revolution [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/3581">TS</a>]

00:59:45   in the valley which is a which is a [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/3585">TS</a>]

00:59:47   version of that same that's a Herzfeld [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/3587">TS</a>]

00:59:50   and company and their and their stories [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/3590">TS</a>]

00:59:52   about inventing the max oh those are [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/3592">TS</a>]

00:59:53   those are fun books and I like crypto to [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/3593">TS</a>]

00:59:57   buy him which is a an early cryptography [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/3597">TS</a>]

00:59:59   book [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/3599">TS</a>]

00:59:59   book [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/3599">TS</a>]

01:00:00   my true 2001 about how cryptography [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/3600">TS</a>]

01:00:04   works by much one more thing or it's [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/3604">TS</a>]

01:00:07   actually five were things haha also [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/3607">TS</a>]

01:00:10   alright so that the brief thing I'd say [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/3610">TS</a>]

01:00:12   is that it's interesting to see how [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/3612">TS</a>]

01:00:13   these kinds of books come out today [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/3613">TS</a>]

01:00:15   because you have books like hatching [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/3615">TS</a>]

01:00:16   Twitter by nick bilton New York Times [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/3616">TS</a>]

01:00:18   know you have a long tail Chris [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/3618">TS</a>]

01:00:22   Andersen's from few years back but that [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/3622">TS</a>]

01:00:23   lack the everything store by bradstone [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/3623">TS</a>]

01:00:25   get big fast was the first big amazon [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/3625">TS</a>]

01:00:29   book in 2002 and i'm in a couple of his [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/3629">TS</a>]

01:00:31   books I mean laughter I'm going but the [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/3631">TS</a>]

01:00:34   the thing that's interesting at a known [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/3634">TS</a>]

01:00:36   makers another Chris Andersen book that [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/3636">TS</a>]

01:00:37   I quite liked which is kind of about the [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/3637">TS</a>]

01:00:39   maker movement before Chris wound up [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/3639">TS</a>]

01:00:40   having to his own life from being an [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/3640">TS</a>]

01:00:42   editor-in-chief of wire to being the [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/3642">TS</a>]

01:00:43   head of 3d robotics a drone making [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/3643">TS</a>]

01:00:45   company which is a great story itself [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/3645">TS</a>]

01:00:47   and these modern books about it I feel [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/3647">TS</a>]

01:00:51   like there's much less of people [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/3651">TS</a>]

01:00:53   involved makers is an exception but i [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/3653">TS</a>]

01:00:54   think these books are so much business [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/3654">TS</a>]

01:00:57   stuff going on everything is happening [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/3657">TS</a>]

01:00:58   in such an accelerated pace and [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/3658">TS</a>]

01:01:00   everything typically involves billions [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/3660">TS</a>]

01:01:02   of dollars for millions of items or a [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/3662">TS</a>]

01:01:04   trillions of Records I was talking to [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/3664">TS</a>]

01:01:05   accompany the day ago game company those [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/3665">TS</a>]

01:01:08   online the legal league-of-legends [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/3668">TS</a>]

01:01:10   league-of-legends they literally don't [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/3670">TS</a>]

01:01:12   know how much data they collect every [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/3672">TS</a>]

01:01:13   day it's so huge they have trillions of [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/3673">TS</a>]

01:01:15   data points toward databases and so the [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/3675">TS</a>]

01:01:18   scale is so big I think outpaces [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/3678">TS</a>]

01:01:20   humanity and you read stories and I feel [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/3680">TS</a>]

01:01:22   like there's less humanity in them [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/3682">TS</a>]

01:01:24   because the the components have now [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/3684">TS</a>]

01:01:26   become so big and I want to read some [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/3686">TS</a>]

01:01:28   more narrative nonfiction that's more [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/3688">TS</a>]

01:01:30   like soul of a new machine that gets us [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/3690">TS</a>]

01:01:32   back to the heart of people what will [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/3692">TS</a>]

01:01:34   they what books will they write about us [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/3694">TS</a>]

01:01:35   they're probably already looks it's [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/3695">TS</a>]

01:01:38   gonna be a series of tweets my storify [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/3698">TS</a>]

01:01:40   is the greater is the response everybody [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/3700">TS</a>]

01:01:43   with a start-up thinks they're going to [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/3703">TS</a>]

01:01:45   be the next big thing so they're already [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/3705">TS</a>]

01:01:46   writing the book in their head [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/3706">TS</a>]

01:01:48   yeah well in some cases I've seen [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/3708">TS</a>]

01:01:50   startups do like commissioned a video [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/3710">TS</a>]

01:01:52   documentary series about the creation of [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/3712">TS</a>]

01:01:54   their startup just to impress you with [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/3714">TS</a>]

01:01:56   how great they are [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/3716">TS</a>]

01:01:58   I worked at once that made us assemble [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/3718">TS</a>]

01:01:59   once every few months for recitation of [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/3719">TS</a>]

01:02:01   the creation myth [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/3721">TS</a>]

01:02:03   oh my gosh I just did a podcast episode [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/3723">TS</a>]

01:02:05   of the internet history podcast which by [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/3725">TS</a>]

01:02:07   the way if you're interested in these [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/3727">TS</a>]

01:02:09   sorts of things at Brian McCullough has [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/3729">TS</a>]

01:02:11   the series was interviewing people who [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/3731">TS</a>]

01:02:12   are in [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/3732">TS</a>]

01:02:13   halt at the creation of stuff excuse me [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/3733">TS</a>]

01:02:16   and he's gotten some people who rarely [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/3736">TS</a>]

01:02:17   talk publicly and I don't think the [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/3737">TS</a>]

01:02:19   podcast has gotten this massive amount [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/3739">TS</a>]

01:02:21   of attention like it's not like a [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/3741">TS</a>]

01:02:23   million people are downloading it but I [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/3743">TS</a>]

01:02:24   think his goal is to create a kind of [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/3744">TS</a>]

01:02:26   living history and there are people who [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/3746">TS</a>]

01:02:27   have never heard interviewed before very [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/3747">TS</a>]

01:02:30   rarely that talk to him for you know 60 [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/3750">TS</a>]

01:02:32   minutes or an hour and a half a couple [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/3752">TS</a>]

01:02:33   hours and we just talk about this other [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/3753">TS</a>]

01:02:35   day about creation myths that amazon [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/3755">TS</a>]

01:02:37   since i was there not at the creation [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/3757">TS</a>]

01:02:38   but knew the people from the start until [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/3758">TS</a>]

01:02:41   we know what I left in 97 and about all [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/3761">TS</a>]

01:02:43   this like the desk door and all those [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/3763">TS</a>]

01:02:44   things and we talked about all the stuff [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/3764">TS</a>]

01:02:46   that was sort of either made up [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/3766">TS</a>]

01:02:48   there's even things that Amazon denies [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/3768">TS</a>]

01:02:50   would have said no it did not happen [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/3770">TS</a>]

01:02:51   that way and yet reporters still tell [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/3771">TS</a>]

01:02:53   the story even though they come to other [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/3773">TS</a>]

01:02:55   people outside like me who had confirmed [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/3775">TS</a>]

01:02:57   that no it did not actually happen that [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/3777">TS</a>]

01:02:59   way [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/3779">TS</a>]

01:02:59   well so i hope everybody out there has [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/3779">TS</a>]

01:03:01   enjoyed our car RRR commingling of [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/3781">TS</a>]

01:03:04   things we talked about it on this [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/3784">TS</a>]

01:03:06   podcast and other other places where we [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/3786">TS</a>]

01:03:09   write in podcast technology and books [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/3789">TS</a>]

01:03:12   and stories and they all kind of go back [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/3792">TS</a>]

01:03:14   together so thank you Lisa speiser for [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/3794">TS</a>]

01:03:17   suggesting this is a topic I appreciate [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/3797">TS</a>]

01:03:20   it i'm glad we did it [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/3800">TS</a>]

01:03:20   well this is fun my pleasure I'll i [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/3800">TS</a>]

01:03:22   would like to thank our our our other [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/3802">TS</a>]

01:03:25   guests Glenn fleischmann thank you [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/3805">TS</a>]

01:03:27   delightful David Laura thank you very [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/3807">TS</a>]

01:03:29   much thank you I've been having a [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/3809">TS</a>]

01:03:32   wonderful chat over in the well we were [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/3812">TS</a>]

01:03:34   talking and and Monty Ashley you spend [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/3814">TS</a>]

01:03:38   your days of Microsoft but somehow don't [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/3818">TS</a>]

01:03:39   have a mac at home [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/3819">TS</a>]

01:03:41   so what's wrong with you there is a back [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/3821">TS</a>]

01:03:43   at my apartment it's just not mine [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/3823">TS</a>]

01:03:45   yeah okay okay well then we'll give [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/3825">TS</a>]

01:03:48   douglas coupland will give you a pass [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/3828">TS</a>]

01:03:49   for that and thanks everybody out there [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/3829">TS</a>]

01:03:51   for listening this has been comfortable [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/3831">TS</a>]

01:03:53   I've been your host Jason still we will [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/3833">TS</a>]

01:03:54   see you next week [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+kMbNupd0/3834">TS</a>]