Upgrade

00:00:00 ◼   ► [Music]

00:00:08 ◼   ► from relay FM this is upgrade episode number 90 today's show is brought to you

00:00:13 ◼   ► by text expander from smile and pingdom my name is Myke Curley I am joined by

00:00:18 ◼   ► the wonderful Mr Jason Snell hi Myke good to be back we are back it's another Monday

00:00:25 ◼   ► We're, uh, I think we're on the road to WWDC now.

00:00:28 ◼   ► I feel that, uh, kind of feeling constantly thinking about San Francisco

00:00:33 ◼   ► related things last week, my diary got jam packed with events and such.

00:00:39 ◼   ► We are on the path now.

00:00:41 ◼   ► Getting very close.

00:00:43 ◼   ► We're very close now.

00:00:44 ◼   ► Yep.

00:00:45 ◼   ► Yep.

00:00:46 ◼   ► So it's exciting stuff, but there's a, there's a few things that I think we want

00:00:49 ◼   ► to cover today, which are tangentially related to WWDC, I think most of the news

00:00:54 ◼   ► will be leading up to our event in the middle of June.

00:00:58 ◼   ► But first off, I just wanted to give a quick reflection

00:01:00 ◼   ► on last week's episode, 'cause we kind of came to an end

00:01:04 ◼   ► not too long after we let Lex go last week.

00:01:07 ◼   ► I just wanted to mention,

00:01:09 ◼   ► I thought it was a really great discussion.

00:01:11 ◼   ► I think Lex provided a useful and positive look

00:01:15 ◼   ► at the other side of the argument that we've been posing

00:01:17 ◼   ► for the last couple of weeks.

00:01:19 ◼   ► He hasn't changed my mind about anything,

00:01:21 ◼   ► but I know I haven't changed his either.

00:01:23 ◼   ► So, I'm sure there will be more for us to say on this topic in the future.

00:01:27 ◼   ► I think it's clearly something that people find interesting.

00:01:31 ◼   ► But we're not going to flog a dead horse.

00:01:32 ◼   ► Like, I don't have anything else to add, nothing else has changed.

00:01:36 ◼   ► But it's something to keep in mind as a point of discussion for the future.

00:01:39 ◼   ► Right.

00:01:40 ◼   ► I think Lex brought a—I think it was a good perspective to have.

00:01:44 ◼   ► I don't feel like a lot of those conversations happen anywhere, and although this is not

00:01:48 ◼   ► the ideal venue for those conversations. I'm glad that we could kind of like cannibalize

00:01:55 ◼   ► a little bit of the time in order to get some of that discussion out there because I think

00:01:59 ◼   ► it's really interesting and I think Lex's perspective is good because it's not just

00:02:02 ◼   ► his perspective that he's relaying, it's the perspective of the people he is dealing

00:02:06 ◼   ► with who are being interested in buying advertising and podcasts. And so he's got his perspective

00:02:12 ◼   ► as a sales guy, he's got his perspective as a creator of podcasts, and he's also

00:02:16 ◼   ► aware of the perspective of the people with the money and what their desires are. And that's a

00:02:21 ◼   ► really great combination of perspectives to have. And yeah, we can disagree about things, but I feel

00:02:29 ◼   ► like he brought a dose of sort of reality of like, this is what it's like out there. And some of it

00:02:34 ◼   ► is philosophical and some of it is, it doesn't make sense, but is the reality that, you know,

00:02:42 ◼   ► know, not everything that happens, not every bit of behavior is rational and there's

00:02:47 ◼   ► some irrationality going on in terms of the quest for some of these metrics too. So it

00:02:51 ◼   ► was good to hear that. I thought that was a great—his anecdote about people basically

00:02:55 ◼   ► saying, "Oh yeah, we'll have a pixel on your podcast to measure listenership."

00:02:59 ◼   ► It's like, wow, that's just amazing. So I was really glad to hear all of that. And

00:03:03 ◼   ► yeah, I think we'll cover it again. I wish—on one level, I wish that there was a place for

00:03:07 ◼   ► Inside Baseball podcast stuff to live. On another level, I'm not sure I want to listen

00:03:11 ◼   ► to a podcast that's just about that, so maybe revisiting it here every now and then

00:03:17 ◼   ► is a better idea while also being respectful of the fact that not everybody wants to hear

00:03:22 ◼   ► about podcasts inside baseball, which is why we brought him on at the end and, you know,

00:03:27 ◼   ► are trying to make it skippable for people who don't care.

00:03:30 ◼   ► So, but yeah, I thought it was really good and we got a lot of positive feedback about

00:03:34 ◼   ► it from people who were, you know, I've never heard that perspective before and it was good

00:03:38 ◼   ► to hear it from Lex, and Lex is a good communicator

00:03:41 ◼   ► of what the issues are.

00:03:42 ◼   ► - So let's get back to our regularly scheduled programming.

00:03:46 ◼   ► iOS 9.3.2 came out, I believe, last week,

00:03:51 ◼   ► and was brought with it another upgrade issue.

00:03:54 ◼   ► This is focused around the 9.3.2 update

00:03:59 ◼   ► on iPad Pro 9.7 inch, so the smaller iPad Pro.

00:04:04 ◼   ► It is bricking them with the Era 56 issue

00:04:07 ◼   ► that we've seen in the past.

00:04:09 ◼   ► Apple has actually pulled the update down.

00:04:12 ◼   ► I have not updated my 9.7 inch iPad.

00:04:17 ◼   ► Luckily the news started to come out

00:04:19 ◼   ► about bricked iPads just before I did it.

00:04:22 ◼   ► My iPad is very upset and is asking me to upgrade,

00:04:24 ◼   ► but I'm terrified that I'm going to destroy my device

00:04:29 ◼   ► by doing this.

00:04:30 ◼   ► I am continually perplexed at how this is still happening.

00:04:37 ◼   ► Like this, it feels like every update now,

00:04:40 ◼   ► there is some kind of issue where it's just

00:04:42 ◼   ► bricking devices.

00:04:43 ◼   ► It's becoming a trend which is concerning.

00:04:46 ◼   ► - I mean, it's not every update,

00:04:47 ◼   ► but it's happened a few times and--

00:04:49 ◼   ► - More often than not, I think in recent times,

00:04:51 ◼   ► there have been some kind of issue with updates.

00:04:54 ◼   ► - Yeah, I feel like I almost wanna do,

00:04:56 ◼   ► if only we had hyperlinks in podcasts,

00:04:58 ◼   ► don't get me started,

00:05:00 ◼   ► that we could literally do a ba-doop

00:05:03 ◼   ► and drop in a conversation we had a few weeks ago.

00:05:06 ◼   ► 'cause it's a very similar thing, which is,

00:05:08 ◼   ► hard to understand why this is happening.

00:05:10 ◼   ► Is it the pace of software updates?

00:05:13 ◼   ► Is it a lack of proper testing, resources, time, people?

00:05:19 ◼   ► Is it that Apple's user base is so large,

00:05:23 ◼   ► although the 9.7-inch iPad Pro isn't a very large base,

00:05:26 ◼   ► that they're not able to test things properly,

00:05:28 ◼   ► and so things fall through the cracks?

00:05:30 ◼   ► It's a little unclear, but no software update

00:05:34 ◼   ► should brick even a small percentage of a particular product that's being sold, currently

00:05:40 ◼   ► especially. I mean, in terms of the hierarchy, it's like it's not that huge an install base,

00:05:46 ◼   ► it's a brand new product. How did it not get checked? And I don't have any answers for

00:05:51 ◼   ► that other than that it's something is wrong because it shouldn't be happening. And we

00:05:55 ◼   ► can have excuses and we can have explanations, but in the end I don't think anyone would

00:05:59 ◼   ► disagree with the idea that Apple shouldn't release software updates that make people

00:06:04 ◼   ► hesitate to update because they feel like there's a chance that it could completely

00:06:09 ◼   ► disable their hardware. But there have been enough of these stories now that that's

00:06:14 ◼   ► where we are. And that's something that whoever is in charge of this aspect of software

00:06:18 ◼   ► at Apple has to fix. They have to correct it.

00:06:21 ◼   ► Jared [laughing]

00:06:22 ◼   ► Jared Because I don't know what to do now.

00:06:23 ◼   ► Jared Just put it in airplane mode and run away.

00:06:28 ◼   ► Because this is a story for another time, but the 9.7 inch iPad Pro is my favorite computing

00:06:33 ◼   ► device now.

00:06:34 ◼   ► And...

00:06:35 ◼   ► Oh yeah, we should talk about that.

00:06:37 ◼   ► We should.

00:06:38 ◼   ► At some point, I'm formulating some thoughts on it.

00:06:40 ◼   ► You had that, we should put a link in the show notes to that tweet that you, I think

00:06:43 ◼   ► it was a tweet or maybe it was just in the, we did a live thing on the talk show app for,

00:06:48 ◼   ► that's by, you know, Myke Sippy and Greg Noss and some other people, this app called

00:06:52 ◼   ► Talk Show, and we embedded it on Six Colors and you were in there and you took a picture

00:06:56 ◼   ► of your setup and it was sort of like a 5K iMac and two iPads was how you covered the

00:07:04 ◼   ► Google I/O keynote. The big iPad Pro and the small iPad Pro were both being used by you

00:07:10 ◼   ► for different tasks, which was kind of hilarious. So I do want to talk more about why you love

00:07:15 ◼   ► it, but for now you love it but it can't be updated. It mustn't be looked at because

00:07:20 ◼   ► it could just turn into a brick overnight.

00:07:22 ◼   ► That's the thing, because I love to use it so much, I'm now too scared to update

00:07:27 ◼   ► it in case I then can't use it anymore. So when do I do it? Like I have no idea when.

00:07:33 ◼   ► My mom is frightened to update her iOS stuff now because of, I think mostly because of

00:07:38 ◼   ► iOS 7 where it was such a dramatic change, like the auto update happens and suddenly

00:07:45 ◼   ► the nothing looks the same and she doesn't quite know what everything is. And that one

00:07:50 ◼   ► traumatic experience two plus years ago has led her to basically not update her iOS devices.

00:07:57 ◼   ► Because you don't know what's on the other side.

00:08:02 ◼   ► You don't and she's not tied into it, right? So she's like, "Well, Jason will

00:08:05 ◼   ► tell me if it's okay." And that's how she does it. And it's not like she couldn't

00:08:09 ◼   ► do it and I'm not doing the old ploy of like, "Oh, moms just don't understand.

00:08:13 ◼   ► They're proxies for people who don't understand about technology." No, this is like legitimately

00:08:16 ◼   ► she learned a lesson from an Apple software update which is never trust them again, which

00:08:21 ◼   ► is really bad.

00:08:22 ◼   ► It's like, I don't know, I think since it was one of the releases that was bad for everyone,

00:08:29 ◼   ► right? Like if you got it, it kind of killed everything and they were able to pull it and

00:08:33 ◼   ► I can't remember which one that was. But since then, people ask me, "Oh, should I update?"

00:08:39 ◼   ► And I'm hesitant to give a definitive answer to people now.

00:08:43 ◼   ► I had the update like a year before that, I had the update that turned off the cellular

00:08:49 ◼   ► radio on my iPhone.

00:08:50 ◼   ► That's the one.

00:08:51 ◼   ► That was the really bad one, right?

00:08:53 ◼   ► That was a good one.

00:08:55 ◼   ► So I don't know, I feel like it's got to be a QA thing, right?

00:08:58 ◼   ► You feel like it's got to be found there.

00:09:01 ◼   ► Ultimately.

00:09:02 ◼   ► So I don't really know what's going on.

00:09:05 ◼   ► And I think that's a good point, that it's whatever the reasons, right?

00:09:09 ◼   ► There are probably reasons, the reasons might involve the way the software is being developed,

00:09:14 ◼   ► the development pace, other issues, other things that they're trying to fix and they're

00:09:19 ◼   ► sliding in these fixes and they lead to other problems, but it doesn't really matter, right?

00:09:25 ◼   ► The net result is that whatever testing they're doing isn't finding these things and you should

00:09:30 ◼   ► never get to the point where you're pulling an update because it's killed a product for

00:09:36 ◼   ► a lot of people.

00:09:37 ◼   ► This is where one of the difficult lines of doing what we do is, because I understand

00:09:41 ◼   ► that there are people making these things, I understand that there's a lot of work

00:09:44 ◼   ► that goes into it, but on the other side of it I'm like, "I don't care, you shouldn't

00:09:47 ◼   ► be breaking my devices."

00:09:48 ◼   ► You know, again, that's where it's really hard to sit on the line that we sit on, I

00:09:52 ◼   ► think, when thinking about this stuff.

00:09:53 ◼   ► Yeah, just don't release it.

00:09:54 ◼   ► Just don't release it.

00:09:56 ◼   ► And if there are critical security fixes in along with this, then there's that question

00:10:00 ◼   ► of like, "Did you just release critical security fixes, or did you do other stuff?"

00:10:06 ◼   ► Because some fixes are critical and need to get pushed out.

00:10:09 ◼   ► Other things are bug fixes and they can wait for testing to see if there are any side effects.

00:10:15 ◼   ► And I'm just not convinced that the stuff that was in here was all critical, right?

00:10:22 ◼   ► I mean, I think that's a good question to ask is just don't release it.

00:10:27 ◼   ► If you haven't tested it, don't release it.

00:10:30 ◼   ► Just wait.

00:10:31 ◼   ► And I get the pressure and I get that there's probably pressure for iOS developers inside

00:10:35 ◼   ► Apple to be working on pushing for whatever they're going to show and release to developers

00:10:40 ◼   ► at WWDC in a few weeks. And that probably makes it an incredibly chaotic time to release

00:10:45 ◼   ► an update. But that comes back to, "Okay, what's in 9.3.2? What absolutely had to

00:10:52 ◼   ► get out immediately and what didn't?" And did you really make the right decision? Obviously

00:10:57 ◼   ► not, I guess. But did you really make the right decision in terms of what went in and

00:11:01 ◼   ► what went out? Because if you can't test it, then don't release it.

00:11:04 ◼   ► This wasn't the only release that Apple had this week. They also released their new Apple

00:11:09 ◼   ► Store design and the theory that goes into a lot of it. This isn't the first redesigned

00:11:15 ◼   ► Apple Store, it's the first one that's really kind of encompassing all of the new ideas.

00:11:21 ◼   ► The Memphis store has a lot of these elements and I remember Steven went and took a look

00:11:28 ◼   ► at those when they reopened it because it was just done recently. The Selfridges pop-up

00:11:33 ◼   ► store that sells Apple watches has a lot of like the foliage and stuff like that in it.

00:11:39 ◼   ► But this new store in Union Square which has been in construction for I think for as long

00:11:44 ◼   ► as I have been going to WWDC. I feel like there's always been something happening with

00:11:50 ◼   ► this Apple store. So this is the new space though. This is a completely, they shut down

00:11:54 ◼   ► the old space and they're in a brand new space that's right on Union Square. So it's a larger

00:11:59 ◼   ► space that they, because they built, when they opened that, like, I don't know what,

00:12:04 ◼   ► 10 years ago right next to the BART station, that was a big deal. But this is a completely

00:12:09 ◼   ► different space. It's not just a remade store layout. It's a brand new building, basically.

00:12:17 ◼   ► Brand new location.

00:12:18 ◼   ► So I've included a couple links in the show notes. One to an article at The Loop, which

00:12:23 ◼   ► which has a lot of the kind of Apple's thinking in it in text.

00:12:27 ◼   ► But also I've put in a link to The Verge,

00:12:31 ◼   ► which I suggest everybody goes to look at

00:12:33 ◼   ► because it has tons of fantastic photography,

00:12:35 ◼   ► which really shows off a lot of what they're doing here.

00:12:38 ◼   ► And this was very interesting.

00:12:40 ◼   ► This event, Angela Ahrens and Johnny Ive were there,

00:12:44 ◼   ► I believe, either presenting and then the next day

00:12:47 ◼   ► kind of with the opening of the store to the public.

00:12:50 ◼   ► And it really kind of encompasses some new thinking

00:12:53 ◼   ► that Apple has around the way that their retail spaces

00:12:56 ◼   ► are gonna work.

00:12:57 ◼   ► And they kind of have three or four new big things

00:13:01 ◼   ► that are happening here.

00:13:02 ◼   ► So the Genius Bar has been renamed to Genius Grove.

00:13:05 ◼   ► And that's where you find the foliage

00:13:08 ◼   ► that will be in the stores in these beautiful planters.

00:13:12 ◼   ► These like white and wood planters,

00:13:14 ◼   ► or they're like cushy, no, no, wood, they're like leather.

00:13:17 ◼   ► They're very good looking.

00:13:19 ◼   ► And it's Genius Grove is gonna take some time

00:13:21 ◼   ► to settle in for me because it sounds strange,

00:13:24 ◼   ► but I think it just sounds strange

00:13:25 ◼   ► 'cause I'm used to Genius Bar.

00:13:27 ◼   ► But that's one thing.

00:13:28 ◼   ► They have something called the Avenue.

00:13:30 ◼   ► The Avenue, this is all very high concept thinking,

00:13:33 ◼   ► but the Avenue is like a row of their products

00:13:36 ◼   ► that changes by season effectively.

00:13:38 ◼   ► That's where they put all their headphones

00:13:40 ◼   ► and all the stuff like that and they change them around.

00:13:42 ◼   ► Then they have something called the Forum,

00:13:44 ◼   ► which is this massive 6K screen.

00:13:47 ◼   ► They have one of these in the Memphis store as well.

00:13:49 ◼   ► I think I'm gonna bring all of them.

00:13:50 ◼   ► They're very, very expensive it looks like,

00:13:52 ◼   ► which will feature something that Apple is calling

00:13:54 ◼   ► Today at Apple, which demonstrates the community creators

00:13:59 ◼   ► and app developers and musicians.

00:14:02 ◼   ► It kind of highlights them and focuses on them.

00:14:04 ◼   ► It's things that Apple care about.

00:14:06 ◼   ► And then this store and some of the other key stores

00:14:09 ◼   ► that Apple owns will be getting something called the Plaza,

00:14:12 ◼   ► which is a 24-hour public space,

00:14:15 ◼   ► which features Wi-Fi, free public Wi-Fi,

00:14:18 ◼   ► and has the Today at Apple thing taken outside

00:14:21 ◼   ► with performances and stuff from the people

00:14:23 ◼   ► that are on the screens.

00:14:25 ◼   ► So this is a, I think, kind of natural evolution

00:14:29 ◼   ► for the Apple Store.

00:14:31 ◼   ► It is focusing a lot more on the overall thinking

00:14:35 ◼   ► of an Apple product, right?

00:14:37 ◼   ► There's a lot more focus on accessories,

00:14:39 ◼   ► there's a lot more focus on open space.

00:14:41 ◼   ► The actual store itself from the outside

00:14:43 ◼   ► looks like an Apple product.

00:14:45 ◼   ► It has the new mirrored Apple logo that they're using on their products.

00:14:50 ◼   ► And this one is just like all glass at the front.

00:14:52 ◼   ► It's a beautiful store.

00:14:54 ◼   ► And I think it's, you know, they're moving it forward.

00:14:58 ◼   ► And there's a few stores that are under construction.

00:14:59 ◼   ► The Regent Street store, which is one of the key stores in London, is currently majorly

00:15:05 ◼   ► closed.

00:15:06 ◼   ► They have a, you have to go to the basement where they have all the products crammed in

00:15:09 ◼   ► now.

00:15:10 ◼   ► And they're going to be reopening that store at some point and it will feature all of this

00:15:13 ◼   ► stuff in it.

00:15:14 ◼   ► expect that one will be spectacular because it's such a huge space. So yeah, that's

00:15:19 ◼   ► the new Apple Store. I'm looking forward to going to check it out in a couple of weeks.

00:15:24 ◼   ► Yeah, I'm looking forward to seeing it. You get the sense that this is Angela Arendt's

00:15:30 ◼   ► big initiative, right? It feels like something with her and Ive together, right, working

00:15:34 ◼   ► on this. Ive designs, right, I mean, because all the tables and stuff, right, those are

00:15:37 ◼   ► all like Johnny Ive conceptual stuff that they've had. So it's more stuff from him,

00:15:44 ◼   ► But then for Angela Ahrens, it just seems like she did a lot of putting out fires when

00:15:48 ◼   ► she came back. But this was her sort of long-term, how do we kind of re-envision the modules

00:15:53 ◼   ► that we use in the various stores. And every store is different, and every store is going

00:15:56 ◼   ► to have a different mixture because this is not a virtual world, this is reality and they've

00:16:01 ◼   ► got to build these things and deal with building codes and deal with employees and figure out

00:16:05 ◼   ► if you have a 24-hour space, how do you handle security. And there's a lot of practical

00:16:10 ◼   ► considerations. But she wanted, I think, a set of new tools and to just refresh some

00:16:15 ◼   ► of the concepts. Because some of the concepts in the—it's hard to think about it, but

00:16:18 ◼   ► the Apple stores have been around a long time now. And a lot of them are not that different.

00:16:24 ◼   ► They have had—definitely they've had updates as they've gone and they've made changes.

00:16:28 ◼   ► A lot of them—like the Union Square store, the old Union Square store used to have a

00:16:32 ◼   ► big theater and they, you know, then they de-emphasized that, the whole idea of having

00:16:37 ◼   ► a theater in the back of the store and the Genius Bar in a lot of places sort of vanished

00:16:41 ◼   ► and it was just sort of an area where people might come and help you and so this is kind

00:16:49 ◼   ► of defining how they want to use these pieces going forward. It will be interesting to see.

00:16:54 ◼   ► My local store, which is a mall store, changed from, it moved locations to a somewhat bigger

00:17:04 ◼   ► still in a mall. It's California so it's outside but it's still a shopping mall.

00:17:10 ◼   ► And I was struck by that because it definitely shows some changes in their approach from

00:17:16 ◼   ► before including a huge video wall at the back of the store.

00:17:19 ◼   ► Yeah, the video wall is a new key thing that I think they're putting in most of them.

00:17:24 ◼   ► Yeah, so I was struck by how it felt different and then they had a bunch of, also some ergonomic

00:17:32 ◼   ► like they had a bunch of benches and stuff at the back because I think they're aware that,

00:17:36 ◼   ► you know, in reality people are coming in and asking for their genius appointment and having

00:17:40 ◼   ► to sit and wait for five or ten minutes while they go back in the back and get a new iPhone or

00:17:45 ◼   ► whatever it is. And so I think that's interesting too of showing like, I chalked that one up to

00:17:50 ◼   ► Angela Ahrendts as well of like, why are people milling around here waiting? We should give them

00:17:55 ◼   ► a place to sit and, you know, we should handle this all better. So it's interesting to see

00:18:01 ◼   ► her take on it. We'll see how this rolls out to everybody. I mean not everybody is near a

00:18:04 ◼   ► flagship store so what elements of this go into the shopping malls around the

00:18:08 ◼   ► around the world and things like that. Yeah because the trees whilst you can maybe think

00:18:12 ◼   ► that trees are strange I'd say they're actually seats right so yeah when when was the last time

00:18:18 ◼   ► you had somewhere you could sit in an apple store it doesn't happen so yeah you're completely right.

00:18:22 ◼   ► She has a brand new vision for it which I like. There's a quote from the Virgin article I just

00:18:26 ◼   ► find this interesting. She says, uh, Angela says, "This is more than just a store. We want people to

00:18:31 ◼   ► say, 'Hey, meet me at Apple.'" They're trying to turn it into a thing and, whilst that is a bit of a,

00:18:37 ◼   ► I think, a slightly ludicrous statement, I get what she's trying to say.

00:18:41 ◼   ► Right, because no one's ever going to say that, right? You know?

00:18:45 ◼   ► Well, I think, okay, so on one level, I look at that and I'm like, "Yeah, sure." Right,

00:18:51 ◼   ► like every company says, "Oh, we think that our corporate structure is going to be part of

00:18:58 ◼   ► everybody's... They will incorporate it into their lifestyles and it will be, you know, happy

00:19:04 ◼   ► corporate lifestyle people will go there to live their lifestyles." And I roll my eyes, I'm like,

00:19:10 ◼   ► "Yeah, okay, dream on corporate people. People are going to live their lives. They're not going

00:19:14 ◼   ► to just attach to their brands." That said... No, this is Apple. And one, two, I'm not sure

00:19:21 ◼   ► this isn't more a reaction to the fact that this is already true, right? Like, a lot of these places,

00:19:27 ◼   ► this already happens. People go into the Apple stores, there's computers that they use there.

00:19:35 ◼   ► It just, I don't know, I think that there's some truth behind that already about how people use

00:19:41 ◼   ► Apple stores, and so maybe they're just kind of going with it and saying, "All right, we could

00:19:45 ◼   ► do that. Let's try that. Why not?" I mean, in New York, I think the New York store has always been

00:19:49 ◼   ► been open 24/7, and people go in there, the Fifth Avenue store, and people go in there

00:19:54 ◼   ► and use the computers and stuff like that. So, I don't know, yeah, I'm of two minds

00:19:59 ◼   ► about that, which is one, it seems kind of ridiculous, and on another level, I'm not

00:20:04 ◼   ► sure that people don't already do that with Apple stores, so maybe it's smart to turn

00:20:09 ◼   ► into the spin, be like, "Yep, okay, got it. We're going to be that then. Let's

00:20:14 ◼   ► just do it," instead of sort of having it happen in the background.

00:20:18 ◼   ► I am happy that, you know, that Angela Ahrens is there and she's speaking about it and it

00:20:24 ◼   ► shows that she has some kind of vision over this. I think that overall into the future

00:20:29 ◼   ► we're going to look back on her as being a nice positive kind of change for Apple because

00:20:35 ◼   ► the stores definitely look more high concept and luxury now than they did before and I

00:20:40 ◼   ► think that was why they brought her in, right? That's the world she came from.

00:20:44 ◼   ► - True, true with Burberry.

00:20:46 ◼   ► And they needed change.

00:20:48 ◼   ► Bottom line, like even if they're doing incredibly well,

00:20:51 ◼   ► the fact is it was getting to be an old concept

00:20:54 ◼   ► and you do need to always question and refresh.

00:20:56 ◼   ► And at the Apple Store was a bunch of variations

00:21:00 ◼   ► on Ron Johnson and Steve Jobs' original concept.

00:21:03 ◼   ► And now it's,

00:21:06 ◼   ► it's dumb to say things like this,

00:21:11 ◼   ► but here I am saying it.

00:21:12 ◼   ► It's kind of Apple Store 2.0, just in the sense that it seems like this is a new person

00:21:18 ◼   ► coming in and saying, "Let's reconceive this. Let's go back to basics and ask ourselves

00:21:23 ◼   ► a bunch of questions about what we should be doing instead of just iterating on what's

00:21:27 ◼   ► already there." And I do get the sense of that a little bit, which is good because even

00:21:32 ◼   ► the best idea gets old and stale.

00:21:34 ◼   ► You bet.

00:21:35 ◼   ► Alright, let's take a break and thank our friends over at Pingdom for sponsoring this

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00:23:55 ◼   ► Alright, Mr. Snell, Google I/O happened last week.

00:24:00 ◼   ► What do you think?

00:24:01 ◼   ► Yes sir.

00:24:03 ◼   ► We talked about it on Clockwise last week, I recommend people check that out and you

00:24:06 ◼   ► can look at Six Colors for our live blog that we did of it, none of us being there.

00:24:13 ◼   ► Which you're in there and Dan's in there and we had a good time.

00:24:17 ◼   ► Casey Liss is in there for a little bit, he was next to a bunch of the Android developers

00:24:21 ◼   ► he works for, which is funny.

00:24:25 ◼   ► I wanted to mention it only because first off they announced a couple of things that

00:24:29 ◼   ► I think are fascinating and I get really tired of the whole one-upsmanship thing where Apple

00:24:36 ◼   ► announces a feature, you know it, everybody knows it, Apple announces a feature that Android's

00:24:40 ◼   ► had for a while and the Android people are like, "Oh yeah, congratulations Apple, you

00:24:45 ◼   ► got that new feature that we've had for two years, huh."

00:24:48 ◼   ► And I just don't get it that, isn't that a validation that you had a successful feature

00:24:54 ◼   ► or product and that they need to have it now because that's how competition works. I think

00:25:00 ◼   ► it's dumb, but what I'm saying is, Allo is iMessage and Duo is FaceTime and good for

00:25:06 ◼   ► Google, right? I'm not entirely sure I like the idea of Allo only because I feel like

00:25:10 ◼   ► what it's really trying to do is kill the momentum, and I don't think it will, but kill

00:25:15 ◼   ► the momentum of things like WhatsApp, that Google kind of wants to be the platform owner

00:25:20 ◼   ► and own all of those things. And there are also the issues like they've got this incognito

00:25:24 ◼   ► thing which is actually not quite incognito, it's just secure. It's a mode you can go into,

00:25:31 ◼   ► but by default your texts are not encrypted end to end, which means it's less secure than

00:25:38 ◼   ► a lot of these other services that encrypt everything. But still, I appreciate it from

00:25:42 ◼   ► the sense of Google saying, "Look, we need to do better on messaging." That we had Google

00:25:45 ◼   ► talk and they've got Google Hangouts and they've got a whole bunch of different things,

00:25:51 ◼   ► but they need to do better. So, Allo seems to be their take on WhatsApp and then Duo

00:25:56 ◼   ► is quite literally FaceTime. It's keyed off of phone numbers, it's one-to-one, video

00:26:02 ◼   ► chat, they've got a feature that they spent way too much time on which is that when somebody

00:26:07 ◼   ► calls you, you can see them before you pick up. It struck me as being a minor feature,

00:26:14 ◼   ► but it was the only thing that was different than FaceTime, so they overemphasized it.

00:26:18 ◼   ► But you know, should Android phones have FaceTime? Plus it's going to be available on iOS,

00:26:23 ◼   ► so shouldn't you be able to make a FaceTime call to an Android phone, a friend who's

00:26:27 ◼   ► got an Android phone? Well now you'll be able to do that, you just have to use Duo

00:26:30 ◼   ► instead of FaceTime. And I do wonder, since they made a big point also of saying this

00:26:35 ◼   ► is all based on public technologies, this is not proprietary in any way, I'm going

00:26:40 ◼   ► hold out a little bit of hope that maybe down the road FaceTime is interoperable with it,

00:26:44 ◼   ► because I think Apple's initial concept of FaceTime was that it would be using public

00:26:49 ◼   ► stuff and interoperable with other things. And for, you know, somewhat hazy reasons,

00:26:55 ◼   ► it never happened. And I don't think people like to make fun of Apple for that. I think Apple was,

00:27:00 ◼   ► you know, legitimately intending for it to be that. And then something like legally happened,

00:27:06 ◼   ► probably patent and royalty related that made them go "oh we can't do that".

00:27:10 ◼   ► They could have built and could still have built a FaceTime app for Android though.

00:27:15 ◼   ► They could, they could, but you know they don't want to do that apparently, although

00:27:19 ◼   ► maybe they should, but failing that I mean why not just make it interoperable if everybody

00:27:23 ◼   ► can use email addresses and phone numbers to video call each other and have it all be

00:27:28 ◼   ► interoperable wouldn't that be nice? And does that really need to be some sort of a wedge

00:27:33 ◼   ► feature between platforms. Google doesn't care and that's Google's game. Google's

00:27:37 ◼   ► going to run it on iOS and Android. Apple only is doing their stuff on iOS right now.

00:27:43 ◼   ► So one way or another, I think if you're Apple would you not rather have FaceTime be

00:27:49 ◼   ► compatible with other things rather than have everybody getting Google's app and using

00:27:54 ◼   ► it instead because they can talk to everybody in their family with that? I don't know.

00:27:59 ◼   ► But again, I'm not going to gloat and be like, "Oh, good job Google, you finally invented

00:28:03 ◼   ► FaceTime."

00:28:04 ◼   ► Because FaceTime is a great feature and Android phones should have it and it should be from

00:28:08 ◼   ► the platform vendor because more people will use it when it's more deeply integrated into

00:28:12 ◼   ► the operating system.

00:28:13 ◼   ► So good for them for doing it.

00:28:17 ◼   ► I'm not going to mock them for it.

00:28:19 ◼   ► If I mock them for anything, it's going to be, I'm not sure I like the platform vendor

00:28:23 ◼   ► coming in and trying to squash the successful chat apps that are on its platform but you

00:28:29 ◼   ► know I'm not surprised.

00:28:30 ◼   ► Well it's going to be a choice though I reckon.

00:28:33 ◼   ► I don't think Allo and Duo will be installed.

00:28:35 ◼   ► I think they'll need to be downloaded from the Play Store so you know they're not like

00:28:39 ◼   ► destroying for now.

00:28:41 ◼   ► Like Duo why would you not put that in Android eventually?

00:28:44 ◼   ► Why would you not just put it in there?

00:28:46 ◼   ► Because of the European Union.

00:28:48 ◼   ► Oh well.

00:28:50 ◼   ► That's why.

00:28:51 ◼   ► Maybe.

00:28:52 ◼   ► Maybe. We'll get it here in the US. You'll have to download it. It'll prompt you, would

00:29:01 ◼   ► you like to download Duo? In general though, I thought this was a really good IO keynote.

00:29:06 ◼   ► I did too.

00:29:11 ◼   ► Google keynotes have been really bad. They have been, it felt like in the talk show thread

00:29:18 ◼   ► that we had. I was saying how I thought past Google keynotes were kind of like Soviet Communist

00:29:26 ◼   ► Party meetings where like every Oblast must be heard from. Like every fiefdom inside of

00:29:33 ◼   ► Google had to make an appearance. And it was so obvious. There were I/O keynotes where

00:29:41 ◼   ► people would come up and they literally had nothing to show that was new.

00:29:44 ◼   ► Let's do a recap of what we did a while ago. And it was just very clear that there

00:29:51 ◼   ► was a lot of pride and political whatever in being on stage at a keynote and that these

00:29:57 ◼   ► people wanted to be there even if they had nothing to say. And that shows a tremendous

00:30:03 ◼   ► lack of discipline in whoever is supposed to put the event together. The leaders should

00:30:07 ◼   ► be like, "No, you don't get in if you don't have anything to say. This isn't

00:30:10 ◼   ► what we're trying to do here. This one felt like the right thing, which is their message

00:30:16 ◼   ► was clear, they prioritized, they were pretty snappy, and they left a lot of the really

00:30:25 ◼   ► esoteric developer stuff for the end, and that's when it started to drag. But again,

00:30:29 ◼   ► if you're going to make those decisions, this is how you do it, is you have the stuff that's

00:30:33 ◼   ► got the broad appeal up front, and then as you get into your second hour, then you're

00:30:39 ◼   ► losing people and the developers are all still there so you just keep going with the developer

00:30:45 ◼   ► stuff but I was struck by that, that Google's keynotes have generally not been disciplined

00:30:50 ◼   ► at all and this one was really on point. I was impressed.

00:30:54 ◼   ► Yeah, I agree. Should we talk about Siri? Sure, sure. What else would be appropriate

00:31:05 ◼   ► for Siri? What better than talking about Siri?

00:31:08 ◼   ► There was a rumor on MacRumors this week that Siri is coming to OS X.

00:31:15 ◼   ► Yeah, they had screenshots and stuff.

00:31:17 ◼   ► Some screenshots.

00:31:18 ◼   ► They had a screenshot of a dock icon and a screenshot of a menu bar icon.

00:31:23 ◼   ► Menu bar icon that says "Siri".

00:31:25 ◼   ► It's ugly as all hell.

00:31:27 ◼   ► I don't know why.

00:31:28 ◼   ► Yeah, that's probably, let's hope it's a placeholder.

00:31:29 ◼   ► Yeah, I feel like they have a super cool looking dock icon, but an ugly as all hell menu bar

00:31:36 ◼   ► icon.

00:31:37 ◼   ► - Yeah, I don't get it. - It's just the word Siri

00:31:38 ◼   ► in a box, which. - Yep.

00:31:40 ◼   ► (laughing)

00:31:41 ◼   ► - I don't even know why you would need a menu bar icon

00:31:44 ◼   ► unless you're entering text into it or something,

00:31:47 ◼   ► but we'll get to that in a little bit.

00:31:48 ◼   ► - All sorts of things have menu bar icons

00:31:51 ◼   ► that don't make any sense,

00:31:52 ◼   ► so why should this be anything different?

00:31:53 ◼   ► - Very good point.

00:31:55 ◼   ► Max will seem, from this MacRumors article,

00:31:57 ◼   ► Max will get the Ahoy! telephone feature, it would appear.

00:32:00 ◼   ► - Yeah, it seems like.

00:32:03 ◼   ► Although, I think MacRumors said that it would be,

00:32:05 ◼   ► In the current thinking is that it would be off by default and you would need to turn

00:32:09 ◼   ► it on, although that can change because we're talking about a product that wouldn't ship

00:32:15 ◼   ► until the fall, right?

00:32:17 ◼   ► Next version of OS X.

00:32:18 ◼   ► Well, it's always off by default, right?

00:32:20 ◼   ► You enable it during setup of an iPhone, so I guess it would be the same.

00:32:24 ◼   ► Yeah, I guess that's the question is would your Mac get in your way when you reboot it

00:32:28 ◼   ► after an update and say, "Alright, I need to ask you about Ahoy telephone," or probably

00:32:33 ◼   ► it would.

00:32:34 ◼   ► Yeah, I reckon it would.

00:32:35 ◼   ► It runs you through the setup process again and enables that sort of stuff.

00:32:39 ◼   ► Like whenever I update my iPad, it asks me if I want to enable it, because I don't have

00:32:45 ◼   ► a high telephone on my iPad, so I think it's pointless.

00:32:49 ◼   ► But it asks me every time I update if I want to set up Siri.

00:32:52 ◼   ► Like I actually on one of them, I don't even have Siri enabled, because I just never use

00:32:56 ◼   ► it.

00:32:57 ◼   ► Like I just said no, because it's like what's the point?

00:32:58 ◼   ► Yeah, I never use it on my iPad, and I too often accidentally trigger it by pressing

00:33:02 ◼   ► the button too long.

00:33:03 ◼   ► So I just want it to go away.

00:33:05 ◼   ► I wanted to ask you, now if we could box this part into considering Siri's current feature

00:33:15 ◼   ► set, why would you want Siri on OS X?

00:33:21 ◼   ► When it's very likely I think that you would have an iOS device close enough, I don't think

00:33:28 ◼   ► there are many people these days that would not have an iOS device close enough to them

00:33:33 ◼   ► when they're using a Mac that they could use it?

00:33:36 ◼   ► There are some, not every Mac user is an iOS user. And you could argue that, you know,

00:33:43 ◼   ► everybody's got different contexts of how they work, so why not provide it everywhere

00:33:46 ◼   ► and then you've got it, you know, whenever you're near anything, you've got it ready

00:33:51 ◼   ► to go right there. I guess not everybody has their phone on their person at all times when

00:33:56 ◼   ► they're sitting at their computer, let's say.

00:33:57 ◼   ► But to do what though? If you assume you have the series only available on your Mac,

00:34:04 ◼   ► what are you doing with it? Setting a timer?

00:34:08 ◼   ► It's a little bit like, they brought a lot of iOS features kind of halfway to the Mac. Like

00:34:15 ◼   ► the notification center stuff where there's the weather widget that doesn't really go any,

00:34:20 ◼   ► there's no app, it just sort of lives in there or find my friends, it's just sort of in the

00:34:24 ◼   ► the notification center and this strikes me as being maybe potentially like that where

00:34:31 ◼   ► it's sort of not really that integrated. I hope it is. I would imagine like the people

00:34:37 ◼   ► who work on automation at Apple would be beside themselves to have access to this. It's

00:34:44 ◼   ► not like there hasn't been triggerable voice control on the Mac before. In fact,

00:34:50 ◼   ► triggerable voice control on the Mac now, but it's not Siri, it's not branded that

00:34:55 ◼   ► way. So it might be interesting to see if they roll all that stuff in so you end up

00:35:00 ◼   ► with the ability to run scripts and things, which would give you a lot of power to write

00:35:07 ◼   ► your own kind of wired together app control and stuff like that. That might be kind of

00:35:11 ◼   ► fun, but I don't know. I mean, what Siri really is is it's data sources, right? So

00:35:18 ◼   ► So I guess the idea here is that you should be able to, without doing anything else on

00:35:24 ◼   ► your Mac, say, "I want to have a timer," or "Can you open this app," or whatever.

00:35:31 ◼   ► I'm not sure.

00:35:32 ◼   ► I do have a hard time picturing it.

00:35:34 ◼   ► It feels more like it would be useful in terms of consistency than in terms of being a huge

00:35:40 ◼   ► productivity tool.

00:35:43 ◼   ► How would you use it?

00:35:44 ◼   ► >> I don't think I would.

00:35:46 ◼   ► I can't think of any use case for me given, as I say, given its current feature set, I

00:35:52 ◼   ► can't think of any reason why I would want Siri on my Mac. I use it for so few things

00:35:58 ◼   ► on my iOS devices.

00:35:59 ◼   ► And a Mac is an engaged interface, right? I mean, that's the thing about the Mac is

00:36:03 ◼   ► that it's not true for every user, right? I can see that there are, for people who've

00:36:06 ◼   ► got mobility issues, anybody who has accessibility concerns, having more voice control on their

00:36:13 ◼   ► Mac might be good, although I have a hard time imagining that Siri for Mac would be

00:36:20 ◼   ► enough to be really satisfactory, but maybe. But it's such an engaged user interface.

00:36:28 ◼   ► It is something that your hands are on the keyboard and your fingers are on the trackpad

00:36:34 ◼   ► or the mouse, and I have a hard time seeing why suddenly also talking to the computer

00:36:42 ◼   ► is something that you would find particularly helpful. Because Siri in some ways is a solution

00:36:50 ◼   ► to problems that exist on touchscreen devices that are maybe not necessary on a device where

00:36:57 ◼   ► you've got that keyboard and mouse right in front of you.

00:37:00 ◼   ► So let's break this conversation up a little bit to take it to the place that people are

00:37:06 ◼   ► screaming at us about. Let's look at what Siri could be and think about it that way.

00:37:14 ◼   ► So do you think that having Siri on OS X, or Mac OS as I and you expect it to be called,

00:37:23 ◼   ► Mac OS 1.

00:37:24 ◼   ► Mac OS 11.

00:37:27 ◼   ► Spinal Tap will make an appearance at WWDC for Mac OS 11.

00:37:30 ◼   ► Turning it all the way up.

00:37:33 ◼   ► Do you think that finally having Siri on OS X signals a potential change for Siri?

00:37:37 ◼   ► Do you think that we're going to see something at WWDC that will push Siri further than what

00:37:42 ◼   ► we currently have?

00:37:43 ◼   ► Wouldn't that be nice?

00:37:45 ◼   ► It would make sense if they're going to do it because they haven't done it yet.

00:37:49 ◼   ► Yeah it's so frustrating, like it needs to be better.

00:37:51 ◼   ► It needs to be better in so many different dimensions.

00:37:53 ◼   ► It needs to be, apps need more access to it.

00:37:57 ◼   ► And on the Mac especially, it will be frustrating if there's no way to access other stuff

00:38:03 ◼   ► because the Mac has so much other stuff.

00:38:06 ◼   ► But even on iOS, the ability to do that, more data sources, more intelligence, there's

00:38:13 ◼   ► so much, you know, there's so much.

00:38:17 ◼   ► We've seen the demos of other assistant technology lately, and there's a difference

00:38:23 ◼   ► between a cooked-up demo and something that's shipping in tens of millions of phones. That's

00:38:28 ◼   ► absolutely true, but Google is planning on having their assistant be coming out soon

00:38:40 ◼   ► with a lot more sophistication than Google Now maybe currently has, and that's the

00:38:45 ◼   ► bar being set, right? And Siri has been, I would say, a letdown because I feel like it

00:38:53 ◼   ► is progressing very slowly from its initial release. And some of that is the uncanny valley

00:38:59 ◼   ► thing, which is when I talk to a robot, I expect it to behave like a human and it doesn't

00:39:05 ◼   ► because it's a robot. It's just a dumb piece of software. But it doesn't mean that

00:39:10 ◼   ► that it's any less frustrating to have it not be able to converse with me and understand

00:39:15 ◼   ► more of what I'm trying to get out of it.

00:39:20 ◼   ► So one thing that I would like quite a lot, and this is something that Google was showing

00:39:24 ◼   ► off was text entry for their assistant. I would like to be able to text Siri. I think

00:39:30 ◼   ► that that would be helpful in a lot of ways.

00:39:33 ◼   ► Yeah, that's actually a very clever idea. I thought about that every now and then too.

00:39:39 ◼   ► that I use quite frequently more recently which is great is you can enter some stuff

00:39:45 ◼   ► in the search box and it's like you're kind of testing with Siri. So like for example

00:39:48 ◼   ► I wanted to do some currency conversion and I thought I wonder if Siri will do this and

00:39:52 ◼   ► it will. Like if I type in 1000 USD it shows me the GPP like the pound sterling, it shows

00:39:58 ◼   ► me the amount right it just it knows what I'm looking for or if I type in 25C it knows

00:40:05 ◼   ► I'm looking for temperature, it shows me Fahrenheit.

00:40:07 ◼   ► Like, that's the stuff that I want it to do,

00:40:10 ◼   ► and I wanna be able to just really talk to it.

00:40:12 ◼   ► I wanna be able to, plain text entry,

00:40:14 ◼   ► like pull down from my phone,

00:40:18 ◼   ► so I bring up the search box, and just say,

00:40:21 ◼   ► book an appointment with Jason at four o'clock tomorrow.

00:40:24 ◼   ► Like I do for FantasticOwl,

00:40:25 ◼   ► but just to have it everywhere would be fantastic, right?

00:40:28 ◼   ► Or just type it in and say like, what do I have next?

00:40:32 ◼   ► Like, things like that that I don't have to talk,

00:40:34 ◼   ► because I don't always want to talk to these things because I feel silly. I think most

00:40:39 ◼   ► people just feel silly talking to it when it doesn't understand you. And part of the

00:40:43 ◼   ► reason it doesn't understand you is sometimes it doesn't get the words. I'm more likely

00:40:46 ◼   ► to get the words correctly if I can type it to the assistant, right? Because I can see

00:40:51 ◼   ► immediately what it's understanding.

00:40:54 ◼   ► It's true, although that goes back to being like, on ATP a couple weeks ago John Saracusa

00:40:58 ◼   ► said that it's like a command line, and he's exactly right. Like, you have to phrase things

00:41:01 ◼   ► a certain way with the Echo or with Siri in order to get it to be exactly what you want.

00:41:08 ◼   ► And the goal is that it should be more conversational and it should be able to pick up in your cues

00:41:11 ◼   ► and it should be able to figure it out. And what you're advocating is sort of like,

00:41:15 ◼   ► "Yes, it is a command line. Let me type it," which I also see, I totally see. But

00:41:20 ◼   ► I think the bigger problem is that not only are there all sorts of data that it doesn't

00:41:25 ◼   ► understand, but that you just, you can't have it do complex tasks, nor can you train

00:41:30 ◼   ► it to do those complex tasks if it doesn't know. So you said book a meeting with Jason

00:41:35 ◼   ► for four o'clock. That's something that really needs to happen at a high level where

00:41:41 ◼   ► it's, "Okay, do you mean Jason Snell? Yeah, I do. Alright, what's this meeting

00:41:47 ◼   ► about? Do you want to tell me what this meeting is about?" And you tell them and then they

00:41:50 ◼   ► send an email or a calendar invitation to me because I'm in your address book saying,

00:41:54 ◼   ► "Here's what this meeting is about," and that when I reply that it sends you a

00:41:59 ◼   ► a message or tells you, Jason's accepted that meeting, right? It needs to be like that

00:42:04 ◼   ► high level. And right now it's not. Right now you have to say things in a very specific

00:42:09 ◼   ► way if it's something that it can do, generally in one shot for it to do it, which is not

00:42:15 ◼   ► great.

00:42:16 ◼   ► Matt F: One of the big things that I found very impressive from what Google was showing

00:42:20 ◼   ► and it's stuff that they have now in some instances is context. So understanding the

00:42:25 ◼   ► context of the questions that you're asking, but also understanding the context of you

00:42:29 ◼   ► as a person. So, you know, they showed this off and I was playing around with this on

00:42:34 ◼   ► Connected and we did it with my Google device. You ask a question, then you ask the Google

00:42:40 ◼   ► Assistant another question, and it knows that that second question was related to the first

00:42:44 ◼   ► one.

00:42:45 ◼   ► Right. And there are a couple places where I think Siri does that, but it's few and

00:42:48 ◼   ► far between.

00:42:50 ◼   ► But part of the problem with Siri, though, with these types of things is the inconsistency,

00:42:53 ◼   ► is that sometimes it works and sometimes it doesn't.

00:42:55 ◼   ► And it gets back to the command line thing where you're essentially like you have to

00:42:58 ◼   ► have a very prescribed way of talking to it and know the context and it becomes its own

00:43:05 ◼   ► little language and that's not how this is supposed to work. I mentioned, Mrs. Hoop in

00:43:10 ◼   ► the chat room just talked about the car a little bit and nothing frustrates me about Siri more than

00:43:15 ◼   ► being in the car because I feel like I want, and there are in-car features, but I want a much more

00:43:24 ◼   ► intelligent active assistant when I'm driving. Like, when I get a text in the car, I would

00:43:31 ◼   ► really like at least the option of having Siri say that you just got a text from so-and-so,

00:43:37 ◼   ► would you like me to read it? And be able, and it just, it doesn't do that. It just doesn't.

00:43:44 ◼   ► I mean, I think I can say, ahoy telephone, read me my texts or something like that. But again,

00:43:51 ◼   ► I'm not being assisted then. I have to be the driver of it. And I'm not exactly sure

00:43:57 ◼   ► what I need to say because there's probably a very specific way to say it. And I have

00:44:02 ◼   ► no doubt somebody out there is listening and being like, "Oh, sure, you can do that. Here's

00:44:05 ◼   ► exactly what you have to say." It's like Siri power users are a thing and bless them,

00:44:10 ◼   ► but the bigger point is nobody should be a Siri power user. Nobody should have to be

00:44:15 ◼   ► because it should be able to figure this stuff out. And having an intelligent agent who can

00:44:19 ◼   ► tell me what's happening on my phone while I'm driving. I would love that. I would

00:44:23 ◼   ► love to be able to, I was driving to, I spoke at the NACNEXIS, the Sacramento Mac user group

00:44:28 ◼   ► last week and Sacramento is an hour and a half or so from here. And so I had a, I was

00:44:34 ◼   ► in the car for a long time and I was listening to podcasts and I listened to some music and

00:44:37 ◼   ► I was thinking on that drive, this is the kind of thing where I'm in a bubble for

00:44:42 ◼   ► an hour and a half, two hours sitting in traffic driving to Sacramento where I can't look

00:44:46 ◼   ► at my phone and it's just me in the car. And at several points I really wanted to say,

00:44:52 ◼   ► "Ahoy telephone, what's going on in Slack?" "Ahoy telephone, what's going on on Twitter?"

00:45:00 ◼   ► "Ahoy telephone, do I have any new text messages?" Which, like I said, I think that

00:45:05 ◼   ► one will do. But, you know, it's just, I want it to be better. I want it to understand

00:45:11 ◼   ► context, I want it to read into other apps, I want it to do better summaries of what's

00:45:14 ◼   ► going on and then let me dive deep if I want to. And I have no doubt we'll get there, but

00:45:19 ◼   ► with Siri I feel like the progress is so slow that we might as well never get there. And

00:45:24 ◼   ► then when Google demos something like Google Assistant, and yeah it's a tech demo, I get

00:45:28 ◼   ► it, it's the best possible look for that tech. And when it comes to reality it will not be

00:45:34 ◼   ► as good. But still you get the nagging suspicion that Google is really putting a lot of thought

00:45:40 ◼   ► into this and Apple, you know, I'm sure they're trying but I don't see a lot of momentum with

00:45:47 ◼   ► Siri improvements.

00:45:48 ◼   ► So I think part of this problem is around data collection. Leading Apple blogger Marco

00:45:54 ◼   ► Arment wrote a good post about this that I tend to agree with over the weekend. Kind

00:46:01 ◼   ► of comparing, you know, it's kind of a thing you have to just go along with and I think

00:46:06 ◼   ► he makes a very good point but when you try and break it down simply it doesn't, it sounds

00:46:10 ◼   ► bit outlandish that comparing Apple to Blackberry in so much as Blackberry did not see coming

00:46:16 ◼   ► the smartphone and then when it happened they couldn't compete with it and I think that

00:46:21 ◼   ► this is a great analogy for data what is happening with data right now because as Marco puts

00:46:28 ◼   ► if Google and Amazon and companies like that are right about collecting data to make their

00:46:33 ◼   ► assistant products better, Apple kind of culturally doesn't and won't do this and this could come

00:46:43 ◼   ► back to bite them. If AI and like assistants are going to be the next big thing for our

00:46:49 ◼   ► devices I really don't think that unless they've got some kind of magical technology Apple

00:46:56 ◼   ► can do this without changing some of their core beliefs about the data that they collect

00:47:01 ◼   ► about us all individually?

00:47:03 ◼   ► Pete: Yeah, I think it can be overstated a little bit. I think there's a lot that Apple can do,

00:47:08 ◼   ► but I do think the larger question is perfectly valid, which is, you know, companies with wild

00:47:15 ◼   ► successes don't fall because suddenly the wild success is hated and goes away. It happens because

00:47:23 ◼   ► some other thing becomes important than the thing that they're good at and that they have control

00:47:28 ◼   ► over and then they can't adjust. And so that's the fear I think that comes through about like,

00:47:33 ◼   ► well, what's Apple's future? Does Apple really get this stuff? And again, who knows? Maybe there

00:47:41 ◼   ► are some amazing tech people inside Apple who are building voice and assistant technology that is

00:47:49 ◼   ► going to be great. And it might not even be great this year, but they're working on it and they're

00:47:53 ◼   ► waiting for their right moment. Maybe so, we can't see them, we don't know. All we've got

00:47:58 ◼   ► is the evidence. And the evidence is that Siri was an interesting idea in beta with

00:48:05 ◼   ► the iPhone 4S, right? And it's come some distance, but not really—if you had asked

00:48:12 ◼   ► me what I envisioned Siri of being capable of in 2016, when it launched, I would be grotesquely,

00:48:20 ◼   ► crushingly, just spectacularly disappointed with what the reality is. And that's just

00:48:28 ◼   ► it. And some of that is optimism and some of that is not fair because it's like, well,

00:48:31 ◼   ► I dream that it'll be this thing. But I think even a fair appraiser would say it doesn't

00:48:36 ◼   ► seem like it's gone very far. And does it require quantum leap? I mean, the people at

00:48:42 ◼   ► SRI who left to found this new company, they feel like they just basically needed to do

00:48:46 ◼   ► another agent. It was time for a completely different take on it. Google's got a lot

00:48:51 ◼   ► of people doing machine learning and all this stuff because that's Google, that's what

00:48:56 ◼   ► they do. And that's the thought here is like if Apple's really good at making polished

00:49:02 ◼   ► objects and integrated with software that runs on them, what happens to Apple when the

00:49:07 ◼   ► most important feature is the super intelligent brain that lives in the cloud and can help

00:49:14 ◼   ► you with everything that you want to do. Can Apple do that? Because right now the evidence

00:49:19 ◼   ► is that that's not a thing that Apple's good at.

00:49:23 ◼   ► Proactive Siri was introduced at last year's WWDC as a kind of a step into this, you know,

00:49:29 ◼   ► because companies were starting to move that way. You know, Google has a lot more of this

00:49:33 ◼   ► smarts built into it. And if I didn't know that this feature existed because they told

00:49:40 ◼   ► me, I would never know that anything was happening. Because it doesn't feel like it's being smart

00:49:44 ◼   ► in any way. I think the only thing that I've ever gotten any use out of is in Spotlight

00:49:49 ◼   ► when it seems to predict what applications I'm going to be using. That's great, but

00:49:54 ◼   ► that's outside of that. That's not incredibly smart, right? You're not really blowing

00:49:59 ◼   ► my mind with that functionality. Did I download something recently? Yes, no. Did I just open

00:50:06 ◼   ► an application and close it? Yeah, maybe put it in there. Or does Myke seem to open this

00:50:12 ◼   ► application at 12 o'clock on a Monday morning yeah he does" like that's cool but I'm not

00:50:16 ◼   ► really getting a massive amount from that and I'm really feeling like and I'm very much

00:50:23 ◼   ► hoping that I'll be surprised that at WWDC we're not going to see anything that is going

00:50:27 ◼   ► to be able to compete in this realm. Whether Apple will be able to at some point in the

00:50:32 ◼   ► future I am kind of unconvinced that they will be able to do it right now and I think

00:50:37 ◼   ► that might end up being a problem for them. You know a lot of these things we can kind

00:50:41 ◼   ► of sit in our little world and take a look at what we think the next trends are going

00:50:45 ◼   ► to be, but ultimately one of them will break out and this could be the next one that breaks

00:50:51 ◼   ► out and it feels like Apple are not going to be ready for it.

00:50:55 ◼   ► Right, and we don't know for sure, it's just this feeling like, well if they had this game

00:51:01 ◼   ► down then we would see it in Siri, more than what we've seen in Siri, like that simple.

00:51:09 ◼   ► And you know, I am prepared to be surprised. I do wonder sometimes if this is just one

00:51:15 ◼   ► of those areas where Apple's strategy is acquisition, is what they say on the analyst

00:51:22 ◼   ► call is M&A strategy, which is they'll buy it when they think they need it. But can you

00:51:28 ◼   ► imagine that like, we'll buy another Siri company and integrate it and make a new Siri.

00:51:35 ◼   ► I'm not sure, I'm not sure, I get that sometimes that's what you need to do, but,

00:51:41 ◼   ► you know, Google, it's a part of Google's core being doing this sort of thing in a way

00:51:47 ◼   ► that it isn't for Apple. And I don't know how you get it to be part of the core for

00:51:51 ◼   ► Apple.

00:51:52 ◼   ► Chris: Google have been collecting data about us before they even know that they needed

00:51:55 ◼   ► to create an intelligent system, right?

00:51:58 ◼   ► You know, but I think I gotta say I think that Google's collecting of data is

00:52:03 ◼   ► as an advantage is overstated a little bit that

00:52:06 ◼   ► Google

00:52:08 ◼   ► You know, there are ways for Apple

00:52:10 ◼   ► There are ways for Apple to do a lot of that Apple can collect data on the devices Apple could encrypt data

00:52:16 ◼   ► Based on your Apple ID and share it among your devices. Now the devices might need to do some of the intelligent processing

00:52:23 ◼   ► It's possible if Apple really doesn't want to ever see any of that data for you or Apple could come up with a strategy

00:52:29 ◼   ► where there's some of that data that Apple holds on to but you know that

00:52:33 ◼   ► Although that can give Google a leg up. I don't think that's the the biggest advantage

00:52:38 ◼   ► I think the biggest advantage is that Google has cloud services as a real core part of what they are that

00:52:44 ◼   ► having intelligence in the cloud and doing machine learning because like

00:52:48 ◼   ► Personalization is harder without personalized data, but you can still have data and machine

00:52:53 ◼   ► learning and and and make the products better and I'm just not convinced that Apple as it's

00:52:58 ◼   ► been structured it goes back to that Ben Thompson article about the the the about paint and

00:53:04 ◼   ► Gunpowder that Apple is a Apple is a polished hardware company with integrated software

00:53:10 ◼   ► And then the services stuff has sort of been floating around and they've made some steps to maybe realign how they do that

00:53:17 ◼   ► But so maybe they're headed in a good direction. I don't know but

00:53:21 ◼   ► But that's still the open question is if that becomes the most important thing the single most important thing in

00:53:28 ◼   ► being a platform vendor for for a smartphone then

00:53:33 ◼   ► Apple's gonna have a challenge because right now Apple is getting by with

00:53:37 ◼   ► middling services because their hardware and the software on the device is

00:53:41 ◼   ► Good, but at some point it won't matter and that's that and that's the blackberry analogy

00:53:47 ◼   ► the Marco made and I think it's right, which is at some point all the things you're good

00:53:50 ◼   ► at won't be the things that you need to succeed. And what happens then?

00:53:56 ◼   ► What happens is you're either ready for the change or you miss it. And this is Facebook

00:54:02 ◼   ► as well. Facebook are a recent example of this and this is something that Zuckerberg

00:54:06 ◼   ► has spoken about quite openly and I bring this up a lot because I really love the candidness

00:54:12 ◼   ► of a statement like this, which was when they bought Oculus. Zuckerberg basically said,

00:54:16 ◼   ► we missed mobile, we were late, I want to let it happen again." And it's like, I

00:54:21 ◼   ► love that, right? Like, we're just going to take a bet on VR because we think that

00:54:26 ◼   ► that's going to be the next big thing. We didn't take the right bet on mobile and

00:54:30 ◼   ► we were behind where we should have been. I think that is a great attitude to have.

00:54:34 ◼   ► Yeah, it's, yeah, we'll see what happens. It's hard because you make forecasts about

00:54:43 ◼   ► what is going to be important, but it doesn't necessarily mean they're right. It's also

00:54:47 ◼   ► interesting because Google wants to be everywhere, right? And iOS is an incredibly valuable platform.

00:54:53 ◼   ► So one of the advantages in some ways of being, especially if you're an iOS user, is that

00:55:00 ◼   ► you can use Google stuff and it will work. It won't work as well because it's not

00:55:06 ◼   ► as integrated into the platform, but it will work. So iOS users will be able to try all

00:55:11 ◼   ► this stuff out. But in the long run, the stuff just needs to be in the platform. It needs

00:55:18 ◼   ► to be integrated deeply, especially if the platform is so locked down like iOS is. So,

00:55:25 ◼   ► I don't know. I hope, and Apple's pride will never let them talk about this stuff publicly,

00:55:32 ◼   ► right? But I hope that in the background, Apple is well aware that one of their greatest

00:55:38 ◼   ► sort of existential threats is their lack of good cloud services and investment in things

00:55:49 ◼   ► like this assistant technology. I hope that they know that Siri has kind of been a disappointment

00:55:56 ◼   ► and that they need to do a lot better with it and not that they figure they can just

00:55:59 ◼   ► sort of like, "It's fine. It's not that important. We'll just keep patching over

00:56:02 ◼   ► it, which is sort of what it feels like has been happening with it. So, yeah, I don't

00:56:08 ◼   ► know. We'll see what happens. But you make a good point with Facebook. Remember how Facebook

00:56:14 ◼   ► was just totally missed? Missed mobile? They just totally like, whoop. Just, by the way,

00:56:22 ◼   ► Instagram still doesn't work on the iPad except in iPhone mode. So they're not all

00:56:27 ◼   ► the way there yet.

00:56:28 ◼   ► I just, I can't understand that.

00:56:29 ◼   ► I will never understand that.

00:56:30 ◼   ► Just, if you don't want me to take photos on my iPad

00:56:33 ◼   ► and post it on Instagram, that's fine.

00:56:35 ◼   ► Give me just an app where I can view them,

00:56:37 ◼   ► especially after they pulled the API function

00:56:40 ◼   ► for people, for apps that were doing that.

00:56:42 ◼   ► There were third-party apps that you could look

00:56:44 ◼   ► at Instagram photos on, and now they're gone.

00:56:46 ◼   ► It's like, what are you doing?

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00:58:57 ◼   ► It is ask upgrade time Jason Snell. We didn't do any last week so there were some extra

00:59:03 ◼   ► lasers because they've been kind of waiting in the wings. They're overpowered now those

00:59:07 ◼   ► lasers. The first question comes from C Ficket and C Ficket asks is there a way to always

00:59:14 ◼   ► get the desktop version of websites by default on my iPad Pro. Now I know that both Safari

00:59:22 ◼   ► and Chrome have an option so you can go to a page and you can click the options, whether

00:59:28 ◼   ► it's the three little lines in Chrome or the weird square arrow button in Safari and you

00:59:34 ◼   ► can bring up the extensions view and say I want to view the desktop version and it will

00:59:38 ◼   ► then force the desktop version to show. Now with those applications there is no way that

00:59:44 ◼   ► I am aware of to force the browser into that mode.

00:59:49 ◼   ► Yeah, in those applications you can't. However you want to check out an app like

00:59:53 ◼   ► iCab which is another third party browser which has a gajillion settings in it and one

00:59:59 ◼   ► of the things that you can do with iCab is force the, what do they call it, is it user

01:00:04 ◼   ► agent? Is that what it's called? Yeah, yeah, user agent string.

01:00:08 ◼   ► you can force the user agent to present to the website that it's something that it's not. So you

01:00:13 ◼   ► can say that you're a Mac rather than an iOS device. So if this is something that's really

01:00:17 ◼   ► important to you for some reason, that is a way that you can force the websites to change.

01:00:23 ◼   ► Now, iCab, there are some others I believe that will do this, but iCab is the one off the top of

01:00:27 ◼   ► my head that I know can. It is an incredibly feature rich and complex application, which you

01:00:32 ◼   ► will either love or hate, but it does some stuff that no other app will do. I think iCab on the

01:00:38 ◼   ► iPad will allow you to have two web pages open side by side so you could have in

01:00:47 ◼   ► split screen two web pages on the left and something else on the right so it is

01:00:51 ◼   ► an incredibly powerful web browser and for iPad power users I think it is a

01:00:57 ◼   ► good tool to have I've heard Federico and Fraser on canvas speak very highly

01:01:03 ◼   ► of this and I think there is an episode where they go into detail about web

01:01:07 ◼   ► browsers I will find that and put it in the show notes for you if they do do that. I'm

01:01:14 ◼   ► pretty sure they did do that at some point but I can't make it.

01:01:16 ◼   ► It sounds familiar yeah and I would say I would love it if Safari and Chrome would provide

01:01:25 ◼   ► a desktop browsing mode. You do give some things up when you do that. Some websites

01:01:30 ◼   ► will try to put flash video and stuff in the desktop version that they don't bother with

01:01:36 ◼   ► the mobile version. Sometimes I find myself switching to the mobile version on my Mac

01:01:40 ◼   ► in order to see video without having flash. But yeah, one of my frustrations about having

01:01:48 ◼   ► especially the 12.9 inch iPad Pro is there are a lot of websites that are aggressively

01:01:52 ◼   ► like "You're on a mobile device! I'll give you this weird phone view on your 13 inch

01:01:58 ◼   ► screen and it's terrible." And so I find myself hitting that request desktop site button a

01:02:05 ◼   ► a lot and a lot more than I used to in fact. So, iCab is a good, if you want to just sort

01:02:12 ◼   ► of have an icon that you can open that will give you the desktop browsing experience and

01:02:16 ◼   ► then keep Safari and Chrome around for other uses, that would work too.

01:02:22 ◼   ► Steve McLaughlin Blake asked, "Should I get the 9.7 or 12.9

01:02:25 ◼   ► inch iPad Pro mostly going to be used for movies, music and email?"

01:02:29 ◼   ► Easy question.

01:02:30 ◼   ► No, this is incredibly difficult.

01:02:33 ◼   ► I know.

01:02:35 ◼   ► Because you've given two separate uses.

01:02:38 ◼   ► So if you're going to be mainly watching movies and consuming entertainment, I would say go

01:02:42 ◼   ► 12.9 because it's a better screen, a bigger screen, louder speakers, you know, it's a

01:02:47 ◼   ► better music and media consumption device.

01:02:51 ◼   ► But if you're going to be doing like email and web browsing, then maybe you want the

01:02:54 ◼   ► portability of a 9.7 inch.

01:02:56 ◼   ► I think this is a really difficult question to answer.

01:03:01 ◼   ► If you are mainly going to be using this as an entertainment device, I would say go 12.9.

01:03:07 ◼   ► If you're mainly going to be using this as a reading device, whether that be reading

01:03:13 ◼   ► articles, reading Twitter, reading email, I would suggest 9.7.

01:03:18 ◼   ► So I think you've kind of got to boil it down a little bit more.

01:03:21 ◼   ► I think the default should be 9.7 and then you should consider do I really want the extra

01:03:26 ◼   ► weight and size and cost of the 12.9 because I want to do X. And if it really is like,

01:03:32 ◼   ► "Well, I just want to have the biggest screen possible for watching movies and the loudest

01:03:35 ◼   ► speakers," then okay. But I think most people will prefer the 9.7.

01:03:41 ◼   ► I agree. But the 12.9 is a marvelous machine for what it does.

01:03:47 ◼   ► Oh, I love it. Yeah.

01:03:48 ◼   ► All right. And then Fred asks, this one's definitely for you, Jason, "Does the Kindle

01:03:52 ◼   ► Oasis allow you to tweet quotes like earlier models?

01:03:56 ◼   ► So as far as I don't tweet quotes from my Kindle generally, occasionally I do but very

01:04:01 ◼   ► rarely, I haven't tested this but as far as I can tell the software is exactly the

01:04:06 ◼   ► same.

01:04:07 ◼   ► It's basically always the same.

01:04:09 ◼   ► Amazon doesn't tend to remove features, they just keep on kind of adding features as they

01:04:14 ◼   ► go to the existing, you know, to the new models and occasionally it will be an update for

01:04:19 ◼   ► old models. So I think it hasn't changed substantially so I don't see why that feature

01:04:24 ◼   ► wouldn't still be there. You can still link your Twitter account and your Facebook account

01:04:27 ◼   ► and I believe you can do all of those social sharing features that they used to offer.

01:04:31 ◼   ► Ben Deorey And finally Jim asks, "Hamilton the musical

01:04:34 ◼   ► is taking America by storm. What does Myke think of it?" This is a very good question.

01:04:40 ◼   ► I have never listened to Hamilton. It is on my list of things to do. I wonder for my own

01:04:47 ◼   ► self and you know I'm sure that many people probably feel this if just listening to a

01:04:51 ◼   ► musical is going to give me the effect that I really want you know like am I really going

01:04:56 ◼   ► to learn to love it but the thing is everybody that I know has only pretty much just listened

01:05:02 ◼   ► to it right and that's how they fell in love with it um this was funny to me because a

01:05:07 ◼   ► couple maybe like a week or so ago uh adena kind of came across hamilton for the first time um

01:05:13 ◼   ► I think she saw some links to something and she was showing me some YouTube videos like of the

01:05:18 ◼   ► trailer and the promo of the Broadway show. And literally as soon as it is possible for tickets

01:05:26 ◼   ► to be purchased for the West End show, which will happen eventually, I will be buying them

01:05:31 ◼   ► because I know how much of a hot ticket this show is. So I'll be trying my level best to get tickets.

01:05:38 ◼   ► I also did, we're watching House right now, we're going through all of House,

01:05:42 ◼   ► and we just got to the few sequence of episodes with, is it Lin-Manuel?

01:05:47 ◼   ► What's his name?

01:05:48 ◼   ► Lin-Manuel Miranda.

01:05:49 ◼   ► That's it. He's in some episodes of House and he's fantastic in them. I'm very excited to see

01:05:56 ◼   ► Hamilton at some point. I plan to listen to it at some point. I am excited by the thought of it

01:06:02 ◼   ► because so many of my friends love it. I am fascinated by a few things. So, it sounds like

01:06:07 ◼   ► like Cameron Mackintosh is going to bring it to the West End in London in 2017, so next

01:06:12 ◼   ► year sometime, I'm fascinated to see how you in particular as an English person and

01:06:18 ◼   ► the English people in general who love theater but also are the other side of the war being

01:06:24 ◼   ► told in the story of Hamilton, the perspective, not how they will react to, "Oh, they're

01:06:31 ◼   ► laughing at the king, oh," you know, but how they will react just because it's not

01:06:36 ◼   ► a part of their story that they're told as a child like it is in America, and so I'm

01:06:43 ◼   ► going to be fascinated by the kind of international reactions to this American musical. It'll

01:06:50 ◼   ► be interesting.

01:06:51 ◼   ► I think it might work, and the reason I think it might work very well is the Book of Mormon.

01:06:55 ◼   ► The Book of Mormon was incredibly popular here, like it has been everywhere else it's

01:07:00 ◼   ► gone in. The average British person knows nothing about Mormonism.

01:07:05 ◼   ► And it's also a very American-focused musical, but we love it for that because we laugh at

01:07:11 ◼   ► that.

01:07:12 ◼   ► [laughs]

01:07:13 ◼   ► - Yeah, sure.

01:07:14 ◼   ► Well, I mean Les Miserables is about the French Revolution and it has played successfully

01:07:18 ◼   ► everywhere.

01:07:19 ◼   ► - Forever.

01:07:20 ◼   ► - And I'm sure the French have a different perspective on it, but it's fine.

01:07:27 ◼   ► And there's definitely some Les Mis moments in Hamilton.

01:07:30 ◼   ► Anyway, cross-promotion.

01:07:32 ◼   ► should check out Pod4Ham which is at the incomparable.com/pod4ham or you can just go to the incomparable.com

01:07:38 ◼   ► and you'll see it there and it's a weekly podcast about the musical Hamilton taking

01:07:43 ◼   ► it one track at a time from the cast recording. So it's different panels every week but

01:07:48 ◼   ► we've been doing that in the incomparable world. We're getting close to the end of

01:07:50 ◼   ► Act 1 now and if we do one track a week we'll be done before the end of the year with the

01:07:55 ◼   ► entire like 40 some tracks on the on the cast recording.

01:08:01 ◼   ► So, that will also be on our show notes, which you can find at relay.fm/upgrades/90.

01:08:05 ◼   ► Big 9-0 today.

01:08:07 ◼   ► We've been doing this show for a long time.

01:08:09 ◼   ► We're approaching episode 100 before you know it.

01:08:11 ◼   ► Imagine if we were John Siracusa or Marco Arment, we would be ten episodes away from retirement.

01:08:16 ◼   ► Uh-oh. Don't leave me, Jason.

01:08:18 ◼   ► We're not. We're not.

01:08:20 ◼   ► Thank you so much to TextExpander and Pingdom for sponsoring this week's show.

01:08:25 ◼   ► If you want to find Jason online, head on over to the incomparable.com and sixcolors.com for Jason's other work.

01:08:30 ◼   ► other work. He does also host Clockwise and Liftoff on relay FM. Very embedded here and

01:08:36 ◼   ► we love that very much. If you want to find Jason on Twitter he is @jsnelljsnellll. I

01:08:41 ◼   ► am @imike. We don't say stuff like this very often, recommend the show if you enjoy it

01:08:47 ◼   ► to people. We would love that if you just tell a friend, maybe you could leave a review

01:08:51 ◼   ► for us in iTunes or even recommend the show in Overcast. I don't think I've ever said

01:08:56 ◼   ► those words on this show before like all of that stuff so it's only one time go and do it or go

01:09:01 ◼   ► sign up to be a member reload.fm slash membership just go check all that sort of stuff out we'd love

01:09:06 ◼   ► you forever thank you so much for listening as always and we'll be back next week until then

01:09:12 ◼   ► say goodbye mrs now aloha hello goodbye