Upgrade

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00:00:23 ◼   ► Jason 100 Snail. 100! Woo! We did it Mr Snail. What a thing we have done here. 100 episodes

00:00:32 ◼   ► of Upgrade. Yep, the sun kept shining and the earth kept moving around it and 100 weeks

00:00:39 ◼   ► passed and here we are. We made it. It's good. Very good. So to celebrate our 100th episode,

00:00:46 ◼   ► today at the end of the show we are going to be discussing Star Trek II, The Wrath of

00:00:52 ◼   ► Khan in the triumphant return of Myke of the Movies.

00:00:56 ◼   ► JAY Yay.

00:00:57 ◼   ► ADAM But we have some follow-up to get to and some

00:00:59 ◼   ► topics before that.

00:01:00 ◼   ► JAY Mm-hmm.

00:01:01 ◼   ► ADAM And we start with the official announcement

00:01:05 ◼   ► of Free Agents, Jason's new show with David Sparks, which premiered on Real AFM last week.

00:01:11 ◼   ► Jason, would you like to explain to our listeners why they should be tuning in to Free Agents?

00:01:16 ◼   ► JAY There's so many reasons to tune in. First

00:01:18 ◼   ► is for the theme song as provided by Mr. Chris Breen in the style of a 60s spy movie, for

00:01:25 ◼   ► the narration of said theme song by Mr. Matt Alexander, using his finest spy narration

00:01:31 ◼   ► English accent. And then there's the content of the show. It's a show about being an independent

00:01:37 ◼   ► worker which so many more people are becoming and I really believe is a trend that's going

00:01:42 ◼   ► to just intensify as we move further into this century. So David and I recently, you

00:01:48 ◼   ► know, year and a half-ish left our jobs after 20 years working for a, you know, regular

00:01:56 ◼   ► paycheck and we've learned things and made mistakes and have observations and that's

00:02:03 ◼   ► sort of what the show is about is topic by topic sort of like what the issues are and

00:02:07 ◼   ► being an independent worker and we're going to mix those in with interviews with people

00:02:10 ◼   ► who are also like us independent workers in various areas. And that's the show. And

00:02:16 ◼   ► it's every other week fortnightly. And it's short. We're trying to make it more like

00:02:21 ◼   ► a half hour show, not like an hour and a half show. So that's the plan. And the first

00:02:26 ◼   ► episode is about scope and not taking on too much work and figuring out how much work you

00:02:33 ◼   ► should take on. And that's directly because when David said, "I have an idea for a show

00:02:38 ◼   ► that we should do together. And David, unlike me, David doesn't have a million podcasts.

00:02:43 ◼   ► He only has the one, MacPowerUsers. But when he proposed this, I was like, "Okay, I'm intrigued,

00:02:49 ◼   ► but how do we make this work that it's not going to kill both of us?" And we tried to

00:02:53 ◼   ► work very hard on the concept in order to limit the scope of the podcast to something

00:02:57 ◼   ► that was doable by us. So that all fed sort of into the first episode too.

00:03:01 ◼   ► So what I like about Free Agents is that neither of you kind of purport to be experts, and

00:03:06 ◼   ► It's like a little bit of discovery for everyone as it goes along, which I quite like, you

00:03:11 ◼   ► know?

00:03:12 ◼   ► I think that's a nice way to do it.

00:03:13 ◼   ► Yeah, we'll see where it goes.

00:03:14 ◼   ► And when we try to not do an intro episode, it's really just a regular episode.

00:03:18 ◼   ► Yeah.

00:03:19 ◼   ► Which I like, that you're not getting an episode of…

00:03:22 ◼   ► We may go back at some point, we probably will, and tell our stories a little more directly

00:03:26 ◼   ► about what led us to make the move, but that's not the…

00:03:31 ◼   ► We don't want to start there.

00:03:32 ◼   ► We want to start with real stuff.

00:03:34 ◼   ► And we're hoping that the listeners will also give us some feedback and tell their stories

00:03:38 ◼   ► and we'll just kind of explore as we go what the show can grow into.

00:03:42 ◼   ► So go check it out relay.fm/freeagents.

00:03:46 ◼   ► So great little piece of artwork there from Mr. Frank Towers.

00:03:50 ◼   ► Oh yeah.

00:03:52 ◼   ► Great art, great theme.

00:03:54 ◼   ► I hope we can live up to the art theme and narration.

00:03:56 ◼   ► I'll put it that way.

00:03:58 ◼   ► Giacomo recommended Drawn Strip Reader as the best comic reader application for the

00:04:06 ◼   ► Mac. I haven't used it because I don't want to but I took a look at the screenshots and

00:04:12 ◼   ► it does look new and it looks modern a little bit better than the one that we were looking

00:04:19 ◼   ► at last week which I can't even remember the name of but was touting universal support.

00:04:24 ◼   ► This one is on the Mac App Store even.

00:04:27 ◼   ► Yeah so check that out, I haven't tried it but if you're looking for a Mac comic book

00:04:30 ◼   ► reader look for that one. But again, I highly recommend you read on an iPad, it's really

00:04:35 ◼   ► nice. I was doing that this weekend. I was on a train going from LA to San Diego for

00:04:40 ◼   ► the weekend and I read a bunch of comics on Marvel Unlimited actually sitting there on

00:04:46 ◼   ► the train. It was great.

00:04:47 ◼   ► Look at that, I haven't yet. I will, but not yet. Probably on my next trip I think is when

00:04:54 ◼   ► I'm going to load up some stuff.

00:04:56 ◼   ► And whilst we're mentioning comics, I want to provide a piece of follow-up. Strangely,

00:05:01 ◼   ► we got more people tell me about this today, the day that we're recording the next episode

00:05:05 ◼   ► than any other day, but the actress who plays Wonder Woman, her name is pronounced Gail

00:05:11 ◼   ► Gadot, I assume. Because we were telling people that we need to, people were telling us that

00:05:16 ◼   ► we need to pronounce the T. It's not Godot.

00:05:18 ◼   ► It's not waiting for Godot, because she's Israeli and not French, apparently. So we

00:05:23 ◼   ► would be waiting for Godot.

00:05:25 ◼   ► "gudut." I thought I was being fancy, I think so did you.

00:05:28 ◼   ► Yes, oh yes. Really, we should have just given in and gone

00:05:31 ◼   ► with the "on the face of it" pronunciation. In general, I just try to pronounce things

00:05:37 ◼   ► with a French accent because it makes it more exciting. Like, the accent in Pokémon makes

00:05:42 ◼   ► me want to say "Pokemon" because it sounds better that way.

00:05:48 ◼   ► I also said "gale." It's "gal." It's just getting worse and worse. Thank you,

00:05:52 ◼   ► of Bay in the chat room.

00:05:53 ◼   ► Tim Cynova Yeah, I was wondering if this was pronounced

00:05:56 ◼   ► even weirder than I thought. Gail, really? G-A-L is Gail, but it could be, but it's

00:06:00 ◼   ► not. It's Gal Gadot.

00:06:01 ◼   ► David Blaney Gal Gadot.

00:06:02 ◼   ► Tim Cynova Basically call her Wonder Woman is what I'm

00:06:05 ◼   ► saying. She's Wonder Woman. That's who she is.

00:06:07 ◼   ► David Blaney Wonder Woman through and through. Are you

00:06:10 ◼   ► familiar with Carpool Karaoke?

00:06:12 ◼   ► Tim Cynova Yes, absolutely. It's a late late show with

00:06:15 ◼   ► James Corden CBS CBS show he's on after Stephen Colbert it's the 1230 a.m. time

00:06:23 ◼   ► slot on CBS he has a talk show I'm big fan of James Corden he's a British

00:06:27 ◼   ► comedy actor mm-hmm it's been a lot of great comedy series like Gavin and

00:06:31 ◼   ► Stacey which is incredible which you should check out and you know that of

00:06:35 ◼   ► course I know him from his two guest appearances on Doctor Who

00:06:37 ◼   ► Craig yep the the guy who the doctor rents a room from him and then of course

00:06:44 ◼   ► course there's aliens and things. Great in that too. And then he was on Broadway and

00:06:49 ◼   ► he won a Tony Award. And then he got this job at CBS doing a talk show.

00:06:53 ◼   ► So one of the regular recurring segments on James Corden's Late Late Show is Karl-Paul

00:07:00 ◼   ► karaoke where he picks up a celebrity and they drive around together singing. And there's

00:07:07 ◼   ► part, it tends to be part song, part music, and part comedy as well is how they tend to

00:07:12 ◼   ► run. The one that kind of really broke out was the Adele Carpool Karaoke and there's

00:07:19 ◼   ► been a few more since then. There was one recently with the First Lady. They're really,

00:07:23 ◼   ► really entertaining. Now, there has been, it's been rumored for many months now, I

00:07:27 ◼   ► think since the Adele episode, that there was going to be a spin-off TV show of Carpool

00:07:34 ◼   ► Karaoke?

00:07:35 ◼   ► There were reports, I don't even think it was a rumor, I think that CBS was shopping

00:07:41 ◼   ► a Carpool Karaoke series around. I think that was definitely, the reports were out there

00:07:47 ◼   ► and people were wondering like who was going to buy the Carpool Karaoke series because

00:07:51 ◼   ► it would be produced by CBS and by James Corden's company but it wouldn't be hosted by James

00:07:55 ◼   ► Corden because he already has a show. So that is the thing that's the sad thing to me but

00:08:00 ◼   ► we'll get to that in a moment. It has now been announced that Apple have got the rights

00:08:05 ◼   ► to the new show as part of Apple Music. From my content perspective, great fit, music related.

00:08:13 ◼   ► Yeah, you get the sense that Apple has its eye. That's like the number one priority for Apple

00:08:18 ◼   ► when it's thinking about investing in original video content is let's look at everything that's

00:08:23 ◼   ► potentially music related because that allows them to just sort of stitch it into Apple Music

00:08:30 ◼   ► instead of making everybody wonder if Apple's doing a whole over the top whatever. They just

00:08:35 ◼   ► just say, "No, we've already got a subscription service. It's Apple Music. Find music shows."

00:08:39 ◼   ► And this is a music show, so it sort of makes sense.

00:08:41 ◼   ► And I feel like that there's probably likely to be some kind of update. I don't know what

00:08:45 ◼   ► iOS 10 is like for video with Apple Music. I know that on iOS 9 and on previous versions,

00:08:52 ◼   ► video player inside of the music app isn't as good as it is in other areas. There's like

00:08:57 ◼   ► a lot of like letterboxing made by the application. So it would be nice to see some updates that

00:09:04 ◼   ► updates there, especially if they're moving into video content. It just still continues

00:09:08 ◼   ► to be peculiar to me that Apple are signing up these shows, but they're in Apple Music

00:09:14 ◼   ► as opposed to an Apple Video service. Every time I see something like this, I just keep

00:09:22 ◼   ► thinking to myself that there was supposed to be an Apple TV service that just doesn't

00:09:27 ◼   ► exist yet.

00:09:28 ◼   ► Yeah, there was a story about that too. I don't think we even have it in our show

00:09:32 ◼   ► notes here but there was a Wall Street Journal story last week about Apple and the way the

00:09:38 ◼   ► story was pitched was, "Oh, Apple executives are so arrogant and nobody trusts them and

00:09:44 ◼   ► all the other entertainment." I think left unsaid was, "Are the entertainment executives

00:09:51 ◼   ► humble people?" I don't think that's true either. I think the arrogance is that

00:09:56 ◼   ► from Apple's perspective, Apple understands the future of technology and how it intersects

00:10:01 ◼   ► with entertainment and the entertainment people are dinosaurs. And from the entertainment

00:10:05 ◼   ► industry's perspective, Apple is this tech company who doesn't understand anything

00:10:09 ◼   ► about the entertainment industry and is acting like they are their personal industry saviors

00:10:14 ◼   ► and they're not. They're super arrogant about it. I see both sides of it. The Wall

00:10:17 ◼   ► Street Journal kind of not seeing both sides. Pretty much the story being told by the entertainment

00:10:23 ◼   ► people. But the idea that Eddie Q walks into meetings, strangely detailed, with Hawaiian

00:10:28 ◼   ► shirt and no socks, okay, and jeans. Alright, that was a detail in the story. And the entertainment

00:10:37 ◼   ► industry people were wearing suits of course. Good to know, good to know the dress code.

00:10:43 ◼   ► Apple comes in and says, you know, we want to do this, we don't want to do your big bundle,

00:10:47 ◼   ► we want to take specific shows, here's what we want to do. They basically came in with

00:10:49 ◼   ► a product. And the entertainment industry says, "Eh, that's not how we do business."

00:10:58 ◼   ► And you can see the disconnect there, but it's interesting to have it spelled out

00:11:01 ◼   ► like that.

00:11:02 ◼   ► And I think you can argue both sides.

00:11:03 ◼   ► You can argue that Apple is coming in with their idea of a product and trying to get

00:11:08 ◼   ► a whole industry to just change how they make their product in order to suit Apple and them

00:11:13 ◼   ► being skeptical of that.

00:11:15 ◼   ► You could also argue that Apple's coming in and saying, "You guys are chasing your

00:11:18 ◼   ► own tails.

00:11:19 ◼   ► You don't know whether the future lies.

00:11:20 ◼   ► You're afraid to make changes.

00:11:22 ◼   ► And we're just going to come in and suggest we make all these changes."

00:11:26 ◼   ► that they're reluctant to change and so they reject what Apple is selling. I sort of see

00:11:31 ◼   ► both sides of it. But it's interesting that this is all going on. But anyway, that's the

00:11:38 ◼   ► reason why Apple doesn't have its own TV service and instead sort of has gone to "Hey, if you

00:11:45 ◼   ► want to have a TV service you could make an app for Apple TV." But Apple's not doing it

00:11:49 ◼   ► yet.

00:11:50 ◼   ► So all of this continues to be strange to me though.

00:11:54 ◼   ► Like, I don't know, just the idea of there being TV shows,

00:11:58 ◼   ► but not in a TV thing.

00:12:00 ◼   ► And as you outlined, there seems to be some kind of issue

00:12:04 ◼   ► with getting the deals in place.

00:12:07 ◼   ► But this isn't stopping Apple from pushing ahead

00:12:09 ◼   ► and they've picked up Carpool Karaoke.

00:12:12 ◼   ► So the thing that upsets me about this, I guess,

00:12:14 ◼   ► is that James Corden won't be a part of it.

00:12:15 ◼   ► I think it's entertaining because of his ability

00:12:18 ◼   ► to make it so.

00:12:20 ◼   ► so I'm interested to see what they do. And it would also be very peculiar for him to

00:12:24 ◼   ► drop the most popular part of his late late show.

00:12:28 ◼   ► - I imagine that his segment will continue and then they'll also do these things, but

00:12:36 ◼   ► I don't know how that's going to work.

00:12:38 ◼   ► - And if that's the case, it makes me think it will be with somebody who's not as good

00:12:41 ◼   ► as him with less popular musicians.

00:12:45 ◼   ► - And it makes me wonder too, what's the format like? Is it going to be like the lip sync

00:12:50 ◼   ► or whatever, is it going to be something where it's like two contestants do carpool karaoke

00:12:56 ◼   ► and there's a winner or something? I don't know. I don't know how that show, what that

00:13:02 ◼   ► show looks like. It'll be interesting to see what they do.

00:13:05 ◼   ► But just on the face of it, it's interesting that this is happening.

00:13:08 ◼   ► Not a bad fit at all for Apple Music. Something I'm not sure about is looking at how this

00:13:14 ◼   ► fits into the stable. From what we know so far there is the Dr. Dre produced series,

00:13:21 ◼   ► is my understanding, even though I saw some news go by that I think he was arrested over

00:13:28 ◼   ► the weekend, which is a whole different thing. That's another episode for the show. Yeah,

00:13:35 ◼   ► yeah, there's some kind of aggravation, some kind of violent thing I think that he was

00:13:40 ◼   ► arrested over. I don't really know. That's kind of being like rumour reported on. I haven't

00:13:45 ◼   ► seen any facts on it yet but it seems like he was actually arrested. Apple employee,

00:13:50 ◼   ► Dr. Dre. And then we've also got this app show. Now this app show, this planet of the

00:13:59 ◼   ► apps, I'm not sure whether this is going to be on Apple services or on television. I haven't

00:14:05 ◼   ► seen that yet. I think that might be undecided. But this could fit into that stable.

00:14:09 ◼   ► I think that was a direct Apple thing, but maybe I'm getting that wrong too. I thought

00:14:13 ◼   ► that was a direct from Apple thing. I don't know.

00:14:16 ◼   ► We'll see. So yeah, just another addition to Apple's media right here. Carpool karaoke.

00:14:22 ◼   ► Lots of weird things happening these days.

00:14:25 ◼   ► So Joe Stu in the chat room has given me a link to a Hollywood Reporter article about

00:14:28 ◼   ► Dr. Dre. There was some kind of confrontation in which he was handcuffed and issued a citation,

00:14:35 ◼   ► but he's not going to be charged, but it was some kind of gun-related thing. It's

00:14:39 ◼   ► a bit, uh, not good no matter how you look at it really. Uh, I do wonder, I do wonder

00:14:46 ◼   ► about this kind of thing. But, uh, there you go. Yep. If you want to read about it, we've

00:14:50 ◼   ► got something in the notes. All right, Jason, today's episode is brought to all of, all

00:14:55 ◼   ► of everybody, including you and me by Casper. Brought to me? Oh my goodness. Brought to

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00:15:28 ◼   ► down on the mattress fully clothed looking at the showroom person and I couldn't help

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00:17:20 ◼   ► which they actually took a truck that looks like a Casper box this blue truck around the

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00:17:45 ◼   ► by and we're like, "Yeah!" Because we have that kind of Casper loyalty now because we've

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00:18:09 ◼   ► Thank you so much to Casper for their support of this show.

00:18:13 ◼   ► Maybe this isn't something worth sleeping on, I don't know.

00:18:15 ◼   ► You can tell me.

00:18:16 ◼   ► Apple's Q3 financial results were out last week as well.

00:18:20 ◼   ► There was a lot of stuff happening last week, just after the show.

00:18:24 ◼   ► Good time for me to go on vacation. Perfect time.

00:18:28 ◼   ► So I'm going to put a couple of links in the show notes to some of your commentary and

00:18:33 ◼   ► charts.

00:18:34 ◼   ► Yes, I spent my Tuesday of my vacation. I wrote 4,000 words, launched a new podcast,

00:18:43 ◼   ► recorded another podcast. Happy vacation, everybody! Generated 15 charts. Yeah. Anyway,

00:18:50 ◼   ► independent workers is what I'm saying here. My boss is a jerk and makes me work sometimes

00:18:54 ◼   ► when I don't want to. Yeah, so Apple's results came out and, you know, it was a week ago

00:19:00 ◼   ► now people have seen it. I think what's fascinating about it is, first off, this is Apple. Apple's

00:19:04 ◼   ► going to take it in the shorts for its quarterly results for the next couple of quarters too.

00:19:08 ◼   ► It's just going to happen because they had such a great year last year, the last fiscal

00:19:11 ◼   ► year and it's going to compare when you do a year over year comparison. It's going to

00:19:16 ◼   ► bad. It's just that that's just how it's going to be. The big difference is that now

00:19:23 ◼   ► people expect it. So the stock market actually reacted positively this time because and people

00:19:29 ◼   ► are like, "Oh, look, Apple loss went down year on year on revenue two quarters in a

00:19:34 ◼   ► row and their stock went up. How ridiculous is that?" And it always shocks me how people

00:19:37 ◼   ► who seem to know nothing about how the stock market works comment on the stock market.

00:19:44 ◼   ► It's amazing. So the guidance was pretty good. They're still going to go down year over year

00:19:49 ◼   ► in revenue next quarter, but it seems like they're optimistic. And in fact, the analysts

00:19:54 ◼   ► suspect that they're being a little conservative with their guess of sales next quarter or

00:20:01 ◼   ► the current quarter that we're in. And the pessimism of the cooling down of the iPhone

00:20:09 ◼   ► is now built into the Apple stock price. So you're not going to have, the stock's not

00:20:14 ◼   ► going to get smushed every quarter when the results came out because it kind of happened.

00:20:18 ◼   ► The air came out of the balloon. Everybody like sort of got to grips with new reality

00:20:23 ◼   ► that they weren't going to keep on growing like they did last year. And so on the holistic

00:20:29 ◼   ► level it's basically that which is they're still struggling with their comparison to

00:20:35 ◼   ► last year. They're still very profitable. This was the second best third fiscal quarter

00:20:43 ◼   ► they've ever done, but last year was the best. But if you compare this to two years ago,

00:20:49 ◼   ► it's better than that. So it really is this aberrant year that, you know, but it's those

00:20:55 ◼   ► are real numbers. I mean, I don't want to apologize for it. It's like the aberrant year

00:20:58 ◼   ► makes it tough to do year over year comparisons. That said, they had a great year and this

00:21:02 ◼   ► this year is not as great as that, and that's the truth.

00:21:06 ◼   ► - Yeah, I wanna come back to that in a moment,

00:21:07 ◼   ► but going back to what you were saying

00:21:08 ◼   ► about the fact that it hasn't hurt the stock

00:21:11 ◼   ► makes a lot of sense, because the stock has already lost

00:21:14 ◼   ► what it was gonna lose when it was decided

00:21:17 ◼   ► that the iPhone wasn't gonna do that, what it did again.

00:21:20 ◼   ► - Exactly. - So they're kind of now

00:21:21 ◼   ► building on that, and also, you can correct me if I'm wrong,

00:21:24 ◼   ► but it feels like Apple maybe did a better job

00:21:26 ◼   ► telling the story beforehand.

00:21:28 ◼   ► I think there seemed to be a lot more shock

00:21:30 ◼   ► about what happened in the last quarterly results

00:21:33 ◼   ► that maybe they should have been.

00:21:34 ◼   ► I'm not sure, but I felt like this time,

00:21:36 ◼   ► everyone was kind of expecting it.

00:21:39 ◼   ► Where last time maybe people were expecting it

00:21:42 ◼   ► to be not so great, but not as not so great

00:21:45 ◼   ► as it ended up being.

00:21:46 ◼   ► And there were a lot of things coming out,

00:21:47 ◼   ► like maybe it wasn't just because they had

00:21:51 ◼   ► a really great sales, but also because they over forecasted

00:21:54 ◼   ► a little bit, it seemed to be a bit of a disaster

00:21:57 ◼   ► where this time it felt like they were a little bit more

00:21:59 ◼   ► in control of the message than they were before.

00:22:02 ◼   ► Yeah, and the Chinese numbers that went down a lot last quarter, that was a bit of a surprise

00:22:08 ◼   ► at how bad that was, and they went down again, but it wasn't a surprise this time. And that's

00:22:15 ◼   ► how it works. Everybody's expectations are built into the stock. Oh, hello.

00:22:21 ◼   ► I want to just run down some of the actual numbers, and then I'll come back to that

00:22:26 ◼   ► year on year thing that you mentioned a moment ago. So this quarter was $42.4 billion in

00:22:31 ◼   ► revenue with $7.8 billion in profit. And Apple met their forecast, as you said. I think they

00:22:37 ◼   ► exceeded their forecast a little bit, didn't they, on this earnings?

00:22:41 ◼   ► Maybe so. It was in the ballpark, yeah. But as we said, still down on 2015. Revenue was

00:22:46 ◼   ► down $7.2 billion year on year. So as you said, it's the same story as last quarter

00:22:52 ◼   ► and that it was all about the iPhone 6 demand, etc, etc, that led to that quarter standing

00:22:57 ◼   ► out. And as I've heard you mention this, last time I've heard you mention this in other

00:23:01 ◼   ► places like on 6 Colors and on the Secret Podcast, about like if you remove that year

00:23:06 ◼   ► the growth curve continues, which is interesting, right, that if you look at year on year, if

00:23:13 ◼   ► remove 2015 and you look at 2012, 2013, 2014 and 2016, you can kind of fill in the gaps

00:23:22 ◼   ► to see that it would have just been a steady growth continuing, right? Which is an interesting

00:23:30 ◼   ► fact, but the fact of the matter is it can't be removed and that's why we're in this scenario.

00:23:35 ◼   ► It'd be great if we could just remove that year, but that year did happen.

00:23:40 ◼   ► I think and we see it in the stock which again Apple stock price sort of doesn't interest

00:23:45 ◼   ► me. I'm not an investor, I'm not going to be but where you really see it is people saw

00:23:53 ◼   ► that growth and thought oh boy Apple just is going to keep on growing, this is great

00:23:59 ◼   ► and now we look at it and go that was an aberration and you have to deflate all of that optimism

00:24:09 ◼   ► that came out of the wild sales of last year like, "Look at Apple's growth. It continues

00:24:13 ◼   ► to go. It's going to keep on going like this." And now we look at it and go, "No, that was

00:24:17 ◼   ► really just pent up demand for a larger screen iPhone." And so they sold a lot of iPhone

00:24:21 ◼   ► 6s and that's maybe never going to happen again or it won't happen again for a few years

00:24:27 ◼   ► and that's not what their business looks like. It actually looks more like it did the year

00:24:30 ◼   ► before and that's where we are.

00:24:33 ◼   ► I would be of the persuasion that it will never happen again.

00:24:37 ◼   ► It seems unlikely that, I mean, there could be a scenario like that, but that amount of

00:24:41 ◼   ► pent-up demand where all of the rest of the premium smartphone market has large-screened

00:24:45 ◼   ► phones and Apple refuses and refuses and refuses and then all of a sudden it comes out with

00:24:51 ◼   ► two different sizes of large-screen phones. I think that did it, right? I mean, and that

00:24:58 ◼   ► was unusual and probably won't happen again. But you never know, never say never. There

00:25:02 ◼   ► could be some other aberrant product that leads to a rush on that. But it's unlikely

00:25:08 ◼   ► because mostly you…

00:25:10 ◼   ► David: Maybe it's worth saying that it wouldn't happen again I believe with the iPhone. I

00:25:16 ◼   ► feel like the iPhone as it is right now, that there isn't enough in that product market

00:25:21 ◼   ► that we can see in the even relatively distant future that would differentiate so much from

00:25:28 ◼   ► competing smartphones. We're kind of getting to feature completeness with smartphones.

00:25:34 ◼   ► Well yeah, that's always the challenge is that then it's just about a replacement

00:25:37 ◼   ► cycle and new people coming in but not the tech driving dramatic sales because the tech

00:25:43 ◼   ► every year is so much better than the last year's tech. That used to be the case and

00:25:48 ◼   ► it isn't any longer. That's been the source for the last like four or five years now of

00:25:52 ◼   ► the stories that people write which is smartphones are boring now and there's some truth to

00:25:55 ◼   ► that is that the tech doesn't advance as fast as it did in the early days when they were

00:25:59 ◼   ► starting with nothing and every year was this complete dramatic reinvention. I'd also argue

00:26:04 ◼   ► that it's just really hard to create a product so dramatically different that it makes everybody

00:26:11 ◼   ► who's got a previous version drop everything and buy the new one immediately. That's hard

00:26:17 ◼   ► and you see it and we'll get to the iPad numbers in a little bit but you know that iPad Pro

00:26:22 ◼   ► 9.7, that's the flagship iPad. That's a big jump in iPad. And you could argue that

00:26:30 ◼   ► something like that could have really driven the iPad numbers and it didn't really happen.

00:26:34 ◼   ► So I'm not sure that that product exists.

00:26:37 ◼   ► And also, maybe the fact that it's different sizes wasn't even the reason. Maybe it was

00:26:42 ◼   ► just China was the reason. And there isn't going to be another China. They're done

00:26:47 ◼   ► now. Again, for the foreseeable future, there isn't another China. It might be India, but

00:26:54 ◼   ► that's a long way away before there is an emerging middle class which the iPhone isn't

00:27:01 ◼   ► available to. Then all of a sudden the floodgates are open.

00:27:05 ◼   ► So I think that's kind of where we are with that, kind of the quote unquote. Let's talk

00:27:09 ◼   ► about the iPad. My feeling is, positive news, not necessarily good news on the iPad.

00:27:17 ◼   ► So, the positive news being, and you can correct me here because I find this difficult, iPad

00:27:23 ◼   ► year on year revenue is up. So Apple made more money than they did in Q3 of 2015.

00:27:32 ◼   ► Yeah.

00:27:33 ◼   ► But they didn't sell more of them, they still sold less. Now this is because…

00:27:37 ◼   ► It was the least less though.

00:27:39 ◼   ► I'm not, we're not getting into that right now. You just, I can't listen to this.

00:27:45 ◼   ► the amount that their sales are going down is decreasing. I know it's madness. It's madness.

00:27:51 ◼   ► Yeah, basically that. The average selling price of an iPad went up a lot.

00:27:56 ◼   ► Yeah, and this is because the iPad Pros are more expensive and they may be including accessories

00:28:04 ◼   ► into this. Maybe. I don't know. Maybe these ones? I mean, they're kind of like, you know.

00:28:09 ◼   ► It's possible. The pencil might be in there, but not in units. I don't know. It's possible.

00:28:14 ◼   ► I don't know if that's the case or if those are just going in other. But regardless, yeah.

00:28:19 ◼   ► So it's good. Well, I mean, and we'll say this. I mean, I joke about how it's the year

00:28:24 ◼   ► over year revenue is down less, but it is true. It is sort of like almost at even and

00:28:31 ◼   ► the revenue increase or the year over year units are down less. The revenue increase,

00:28:37 ◼   ► it's the first time in 10 quarters that that's happened and really it's the second time in

00:28:42 ◼   ► like 13 quarters, the iPad has been falling in units year over year for a while now, for

00:28:49 ◼   ► like two and a half, three years. And so it's actually kind of a big deal that this happened.

00:28:57 ◼   ► Then again, you can argue that this is the, you know, they already had the 12.9 iPad Pro

00:29:04 ◼   ► out there, now they've got the 9.7 iPad Pro, it's the mainstream iPad size. And it's,

00:29:11 ◼   ► it's pencil support for the masses and all of that and they launch it and all they managed

00:29:18 ◼   ► to do was barely eke out a revenue boost. It's probably not the ideal time for iPad

00:29:25 ◼   ► purchases. I think that iPad, like so much of Apple's business, does actually do well

00:29:29 ◼   ► in the fall and the holiday quarter and they are set for that now because I don't think

00:29:34 ◼   ► we're going to see new iPads until the spring. I think that they're set for that. But we'll

00:29:39 ◼   ► see. So it's like good, like you said, it's good iPad news. It's not great iPad news,

00:29:44 ◼   ► but it's better than what we've had, which is bad iPad news.

00:29:48 ◼   ► This is why, like, it's semantics, but like I'm saying, positive, not good. Because there

00:29:52 ◼   ► is some, there is a trend on a chart which is going up, which hasn't happened in a long

00:29:59 ◼   ► time. But I want to see how the next few quarters go, because literally all this could be is

00:30:05 ◼   ► the people that replace every time, replacing again.

00:30:08 ◼   ► Yeah. And Apple has made more money on it because those people now have to pay more

00:30:13 ◼   ► money to do that. Yeah. Yeah, I mean more or less that's true. What I was going to say

00:30:17 ◼   ► is that there's a line that keeps going up and it didn't used to go up, but that line

00:30:22 ◼   ► in my charts on six colors, that line is still in the red, right? It's a negative number.

00:30:27 ◼   ► It's not actually going up. It's trying to reach the surface and start going up because

00:30:34 ◼   ► still a loss. It's just less of a loss and that's not a great, you know, "Woo! Yay!

00:30:39 ◼   ► We lost less than we did last time!" is not really that exciting.

00:30:43 ◼   ► Yeah. So if I could try and explain that a different way because this part is so confusing.

00:30:48 ◼   ► I know. It seems like the analysts and Tim Cook, they're

00:30:52 ◼   ► trying to paint this as a good thing but all it means is they're still selling less of

00:30:57 ◼   ► them but the amount at which they're selling less is decreasing. So if they sold…

00:31:04 ◼   ► 10 a year, two years ago, and then, oh, but then they only sold five the next year, but

00:31:11 ◼   ► now they're selling four, so you can see there's a much better loss there, right?

00:31:15 ◼   ► It wasn't 50%, it was just a much smaller amount. Like, you know, so that's kind of

00:31:19 ◼   ► the way that I'm very much trying to simplify it, because it has taken me a long time to

00:31:25 ◼   ► get my head around this.

00:31:27 ◼   ► Basically, three quarters ago, Apple said, "Hey, we sold a thousand," I'll just make

00:31:31 ◼   ► of numbers, we sold a thousand fewer iPads than we did last year at the same quarter.

00:31:36 ◼   ► And then last quarter they said, "Hey, we sold 500 fewer iPads than we did last quarter."

00:31:41 ◼   ► And this time they're like, "Hey, we only sold 200 fewer iPads than we did last quarter."

00:31:46 ◼   ► It's like, well that looks like progress on one level. On another level, they still sold

00:31:51 ◼   ► 200 fewer iPads than they did last year.

00:31:53 ◼   ► Yeah, and also, it's fine if you look at it from the previous year, but if you zoom out,

00:31:58 ◼   ► it's still losing massive amounts, right?

00:32:01 ◼   ► And if you don't look at change but you look at the actual numbers, what you're seeing

00:32:03 ◼   ► is a chart that just keeps going down, but it's going down slower now.

00:32:10 ◼   ► So it is what it is.

00:32:11 ◼   ► And then if you look at the revenue, you see a little tick up.

00:32:13 ◼   ► So I think it's all of us who've been watching the iPad have been looking for a while for

00:32:17 ◼   ► signs that it's hit bottom, and that because the idea here is that the iPad had an unnatural

00:32:22 ◼   ► couple of quarters where everybody bought an iPad.

00:32:26 ◼   ► like the iPad 2 and the iPad then especially with the iPad Air 1, they sold a lot. And

00:32:36 ◼   ► those are just sitting out there, right? People are using them, they're fine, right? And so

00:32:40 ◼   ► now we're in this moment of like, when does the replacement cycle really kick in where

00:32:44 ◼   ► we can get some idea of in a normal period, again, not some kind of apparent quarter or

00:32:51 ◼   ► to, in a normal period, what does the iPad sales figure look like? And when it's dropping

00:32:56 ◼   ► every quarter for ten quarters, you can't get a handle on it. Is it going to be a 10

00:33:01 ◼   ► million? You know, 5 million? What's the number per quarter that the iPad sells? And we still

00:33:07 ◼   ► don't know. It may be that as we're watching it kind of hit bottom here, this is it. You

00:33:12 ◼   ► know, and maybe it won't even go up very much after this, but maybe it won't go down very

00:33:16 ◼   ► much and then we'll at least be able to peg. And if you're an investor, this is kind of

00:33:19 ◼   ► a big deal. Peg, like what's the size of the iPad business? But you can't, when it's

00:33:24 ◼   ► in free fall you can't tell.

00:33:25 ◼   ► Greg is a big fan of the iPad. So we're, it looks like we're probably getting closer

00:33:28 ◼   ► to that point. And I think the next year, I believe that within the next year we will

00:33:34 ◼   ► know what the quarterly iPad sales look like. And it will probably be within the nine to

00:33:41 ◼   ► ten million range a quarter. Now the reason I think this is important is it is then that

00:33:48 ◼   ► we can understand the importance of the iPad and the product line because right now whenever

00:33:53 ◼   ► we talk about the iPad we focus on the fact that things are declining. We're not necessarily

00:33:58 ◼   ► focusing on too much is the actual amount of units sold because if it is within that

00:34:03 ◼   ► 9 to 10 million range it's more than the Mac and we don't really say that the Mac is a

00:34:09 ◼   ► disaster because it sells 6 million a quarter. That's just what the Mac is but the iPad is

00:34:15 ◼   ► easy to point at as a disaster because it keeps going down. But if it can stabilize…

00:34:21 ◼   ► The expectations were high, right? It was, it was, it started, its trajectory at the

00:34:25 ◼   ► beginning was faster than the iPhone. So it's like, oh my God, pretty soon everybody on

00:34:29 ◼   ► Earth is going to own four iPads, right? And that didn't happen. And so now, now you're

00:34:34 ◼   ► exactly right. I think what all of us who have been watching this have been kind of

00:34:39 ◼   ► hoping would happen and thinking would probably happen. Although you don't know, I mean

00:34:44 ◼   ► even Tim Cook is like, "Oh, I'm bullish on the iPad," but he doesn't know either,

00:34:48 ◼   ► is that the iPad is going to settle in as a business that is comparable to the Mac business,

00:34:52 ◼   ► which is a pretty darn good business, but it's not the iPhone.

00:34:55 ◼   ► No, but that's… nothing's the iPhone. Exactly. Oh, I agree. I agree. I mean, nothing…

00:35:01 ◼   ► I read a news story the other day about Apple's results, and it was in like a serious publication,

00:35:07 ◼   ► and they said something about how, you know, Apple continues to search for a product comparable

00:35:12 ◼   ► to the iPhone, it's like guys that's just never going to happen. The smartphone, I mean

00:35:18 ◼   ► one of the other things that wasn't in our show notes that happened is Apple sold its

00:35:21 ◼   ► billionth iPhone and that kind of thing where you have the defining product in a category

00:35:30 ◼   ► that is, that everybody on earth is going to buy in the course, over the course of about

00:35:37 ◼   ► ten years, it's going to go to almost everybody on the planet. Over the course of twenty years

00:35:41 ◼   ► everybody will have one and will be considered standard issue for every human being on the

00:35:45 ◼   ► face of the earth. It doesn't happen very often. It might not happen again in our lifetimes.

00:35:50 ◼   ► It probably hasn't happened in our lifetimes other than that. And Apple had that premier

00:35:56 ◼   ► brand in that category. Yeah, don't stop searching for another iPhone. It's probably

00:36:02 ◼   ► not going to happen. It's probably, if it does happen, probably not going to be Apple

00:36:06 ◼   ► just because what are the chances? It's a rare thing that happened.

00:36:13 ◼   ► And I think to myself, we were always looking for that, right? That was what we were hoping

00:36:17 ◼   ► for, to find the product that would be as big as, or like 50% the size of, or 75% the

00:36:24 ◼   ► size of the iPhone. And Apple have had quarters where that was the case, right? Where the

00:36:29 ◼   ► iPad sold about half of what the iPhone sold. But they are anomalies. And will always be

00:36:35 ◼   ► anomalies now like the anomaly of the crazy 2015 quarters.

00:36:41 ◼   ► The iPhone 6, yeah exactly right. But the iPad is a good category. If it's the size

00:36:45 ◼   ► of the Mac and it continues to grow, I think that's the other thing that we would like

00:36:48 ◼   ► to see is we'd like to see sales stabilize and then see what the growth curve is because

00:36:52 ◼   ► you would hope that the sales would still show some growth in that category but you've

00:36:59 ◼   ► got to come off of the high and then like find what's your new level and it still hasn't

00:37:03 ◼   ► done that. But a Mac business is a good business. That's a good-sized business to be in. It's

00:37:09 ◼   ► not bad at all.

00:37:11 ◼   ► No. So if we get the iPad to that point and it continues to be larger than the Mac, as

00:37:16 ◼   ► a person who cares about the iPad, I consider that a great achievement. Because then we

00:37:21 ◼   ► know that this product is deserving of the time and attention and yearly software and

00:37:28 ◼   ► yearly hardware on the Mac everyone, do you remember?

00:37:32 ◼   ► - Yeah, good times.

00:37:34 ◼   ► - So that's what I hope to see

00:37:36 ◼   ► is someone who really cares about that.

00:37:38 ◼   ► That's what I'm hoping for,

00:37:39 ◼   ► that's what I'm hoping it ends up being.

00:37:41 ◼   ► But I think anybody that does care about the iPad

00:37:44 ◼   ► is gonna continue to wait for that moment

00:37:47 ◼   ► and we haven't seen it yet

00:37:48 ◼   ► and that's why we keep focusing on this every single time

00:37:52 ◼   ► is that moment is so important to that product.

00:37:55 ◼   ► - I agree.

00:37:56 ◼   ► Hopefully we'll get that in the next couple of quarters.

00:38:00 ◼   ► It'll be interesting to see what the holiday quarter sales

00:38:02 ◼   ► are for the iPad too.

00:38:04 ◼   ► - I really don't think it's gonna be anything

00:38:05 ◼   ► worth calling home about, unfortunately.

00:38:07 ◼   ► I just don't see it.

00:38:08 ◼   ► - If it, again, if it's flat, if it's flat to slightly up.

00:38:12 ◼   ► - I mean, that might be the best news.

00:38:14 ◼   ► - That's what I'm looking for is stop the decline.

00:38:18 ◼   ► Bottom out, hit bottom, start coming back up.

00:38:22 ◼   ► Still hasn't hit bottom.

00:38:24 ◼   ► - Well, it may have done, we don't know, right?

00:38:26 ◼   ► this might be the bottom. That's true. It may have. And the Mac did go down, but because

00:38:35 ◼   ► of the volumes it's not... Yeah, the Mac quarter was bad, but anybody who knows... First off,

00:38:40 ◼   ► the PC industry is bad in general, and everybody who knows the Mac knows that other than the

00:38:45 ◼   ► MacBook, nothing has been updated. So you would not expect there to be anything driving

00:38:52 ◼   ► sales other than the MacBook, which is one of the reasons why the average selling price

00:38:55 ◼   ► of the Mac is down because I think the MacBook is the only one that's really selling and

00:39:00 ◼   ► it's on the cheaper side so it pushes everything down a little bit.

00:39:03 ◼   ► So some other little tidbits, services continues to grow, it's up $5.8 billion in revenue for

00:39:09 ◼   ► Q3 year and year.

00:39:11 ◼   ► Growing every quarter.

00:39:12 ◼   ► And Apple quoted that by next year it will be the size of a Fortune 100 company.

00:39:18 ◼   ► Yeah.

00:39:19 ◼   ► Crazy.

00:39:20 ◼   ► Services.

00:39:21 ◼   ► is down and this is expected to be because of a higher than expected demand for the 6SE

00:39:29 ◼   ► wait 5SE? 6SE. What is it? SE. There we go. There's no number Myke. Who knows? You can't

00:39:37 ◼   ► quantify the special edition it is just the SE. There you go. So it's because of the SE

00:39:42 ◼   ► they reckon that it looks like that's been the case plus Apple had to kind of dump an

00:39:46 ◼   ► access of the stock of the iPhone 6 line. So they did a bunch of deals, therefore driving

00:39:51 ◼   ► the ASP down. I do wonder though, that even though the ASP is down, what the margins are

00:39:57 ◼   ► like on the SE. I bet they're really good.

00:40:01 ◼   ► I think they're pretty good, yeah.

00:40:02 ◼   ► So I wonder, when you're looking at profit from that line, if that number is maybe not

00:40:08 ◼   ► all it seems. I don't know. And Apple is high on new technology, Jason.

00:40:13 ◼   ► Oh they are, Myke. Tim Cook in the analyst call talked about a lot of new technology

00:40:18 ◼   ► that they're very excited about.

00:40:19 ◼   ► He spoke about the Pokemans, didn't he? The Pokemans?

00:40:21 ◼   ► He did speak about the Pokemans. He did. A couple of times.

00:40:25 ◼   ► How could, like, how? How? How? How did he get that wrong? It's like, it is the most

00:40:33 ◼   ► popular application on the App Store in history, right? Someone must have briefed him.

00:40:39 ◼   ► It's very easy to look at Pokemon and then try to pluralize it and think it's like man

00:40:42 ◼   ► and say "mans, Pokeman, Pokemans" and somebody, maybe somebody briefed him on it. I don't

00:40:48 ◼   ► know. Everybody had a chuckle and then I kind of moved on. He did talk about, though, in

00:40:54 ◼   ► the context of Pokemon Go, of AR and somebody asked about it because there's augmented reality

00:41:00 ◼   ► as a part of Pokemon Go, although it's kind of a minor part. I actually turned it off

00:41:05 ◼   ► because it's easier to play without it on. But the idea that you're interacting with

00:41:10 ◼   ► things in the real world and then things that seem to be in the real world but aren't. That's

00:41:14 ◼   ► the augmented reality idea. That's what Microsoft is doing with HoloLens and Apple.

00:41:19 ◼   ► Tim Cook said AR is going to be big. He said AR is going to be big. We got a lot of stuff

00:41:24 ◼   ► we're looking at there. So he didn't try to pretend that Apple is not interested in it.

00:41:30 ◼   ► In fact, he predicted that it will be big and that Apple is very interested in it. I

00:41:35 ◼   ► thought that was something to take note of. And they've talked about VR positively in

00:41:39 ◼   ► the same way before. So it sounds like Apple's basically trying to send a signal that Apple's

00:41:45 ◼   ► not ignoring that market because there are people who freak out when Apple's not the

00:41:50 ◼   ► first company to market with an incredibly expensive, shaky technically, but just barely

00:41:55 ◼   ► technically possible thing in a new category because they think that somehow that's what

00:42:00 ◼   ► Apple should be doing, which is not what Apple does.

00:42:02 ◼   ► But people are like, "Oh, but Microsoft has the HoloLens and then the VR headsets are

00:42:07 ◼   ► coming out and where's Apple? Apple's behind here. It's like, is Apple behind?

00:42:12 ◼   ► Apple hasn't come out with a product yet. It doesn't mean that they aren't working

00:42:14 ◼   ► and stuff but it's unlikely that Apple would ship something and say, "Well, this is a

00:42:19 ◼   ► $3,000 developer kit for VR and we think we'll have a viable product in four or five years."

00:42:25 ◼   ► They tend not to do that and I think that's not in their nature. So I feel like this is

00:42:30 ◼   ► signaling from Cook saying, "Yes, we are not ignoring VR and AR." Now, they may be

00:42:36 ◼   ► behind, we don't know, but I think the absence of an Apple VR product or AR product today

00:42:42 ◼   ► is not evidence that Apple is not working on something and that Apple is behind.

00:42:48 ◼   ► Can I take the cynics view?

00:42:51 ◼   ► Sure.

00:42:52 ◼   ► The investors are waiting for Apple to produce the next iPhone.

00:42:56 ◼   ► Aren't they always?

00:42:58 ◼   ► But now they know the iPhone isn't going to grow anymore, where's the next growth

00:43:01 ◼   ► area?

00:43:02 ◼   ► has to talk about potential growth areas now is the way that I think about this.

00:43:06 ◼   ► Oh sure.

00:43:07 ◼   ► They have to talk about this because what else are they going to do?

00:43:12 ◼   ► But they have to, what they have to do is send the signal, well they did that even more,

00:43:15 ◼   ► what they're doing is they're sending the signal that Apple is working on new things.

00:43:18 ◼   ► They did this with a watch as well.

00:43:19 ◼   ► Because they have to, right, I mean but this is the, this is the, the argument is the other

00:43:23 ◼   ► way to send the signal is to do what Microsoft does, which is say here's a piece of tech

00:43:28 ◼   ► that doesn't really exist and is completely impractical and won't be for sale for years,

00:43:33 ◼   ► but look how awesome it is. This is the sort of thing we're doing." Apple doesn't

00:43:37 ◼   ► do that. Apple doesn't cart out stuff from its R&D hasn't since Jobs came back in the

00:43:41 ◼   ► 90s. It just doesn't do that. So how do you send that signal if you're not going

00:43:46 ◼   ► to do the Microsoft thing, which is pre-announce years before the product exists? The way you

00:43:51 ◼   ► do it is what they're doing, which is we're very interested.

00:43:54 ◼   ► Matt: What's the better option?

00:43:56 ◼   ► JE.H.

00:43:57 ◼   ► Reasonable people can differ.

00:43:58 ◼   ► I have always felt as somebody who got to witness some of those Apple demos in the mid-90s

00:44:03 ◼   ► that were for things that didn't exist, I have always felt like showing off something

00:44:08 ◼   ► that's not real and that might never be real and that nobody can actually buy is kind

00:44:13 ◼   ► of cheating because you're getting people really excited about a product that doesn't

00:44:18 ◼   ► exist and they can't buy it.

00:44:20 ◼   ► What can they do?

00:44:21 ◼   ► They can't do anything.

00:44:22 ◼   ► They just have to wait.

00:44:23 ◼   ► always use that as a tactic to destroy its competition and turn consumers away from the

00:44:30 ◼   ► competition. I'm like, "Well, I don't know. Microsoft says they're coming out with something

00:44:34 ◼   ► too even if there's nothing coming soon for Microsoft." That's what they would do. They

00:44:38 ◼   ► would scare off investors. Like, "I don't want to invest in somebody because Microsoft's

00:44:41 ◼   ► already said they're going to take you on." And sometimes those Microsoft products wouldn't

00:44:44 ◼   ► actually ever even exist. Or if they did exist, they wouldn't be anything like they were promised.

00:44:50 ◼   ► So I've always believed that that's kind of a shady business tactic and I think it's bad

00:44:55 ◼   ► for consumers because you're promising things you may not be able to deliver. Today's Microsoft

00:44:59 ◼   ► I think is better at it, but they still use those techniques.

00:45:01 ◼   ► Well, they just did it with the Xbox. So, you know, they're saying we have an Xbox project

00:45:08 ◼   ► in 2017 that's going to be really super powerful, but they haven't, you know.

00:45:13 ◼   ► Sure. No, they're still doing it. The HoloLens is the same. They've been talking about the

00:45:16 ◼   ► HoloLens for like what a couple of years now and now they have a developer kit for the

00:45:21 ◼   ► HoloLens for $3,000. And that's again when is the HoloLens a real product that people

00:45:28 ◼   ► are going to use. It's going to be a while yet. So you could do that, Apple just doesn't

00:45:32 ◼   ► play that game. For whatever reason and I think it comes back to Steve Jobs' focus

00:45:36 ◼   ► on shipping real products and that's always been their discipline has been we ship a real

00:45:42 ◼   ► product we don't promise we don't load you up with all our amazing technology and get

00:45:47 ◼   ► you stars in your eyes and then three years later ship something that disappoints you

00:45:52 ◼   ► because it's not everything that we promised in our mock-up because that wasn't based in

00:45:56 ◼   ► reality. Apple's take is always you know we announce a product when we got a product ready

00:46:01 ◼   ► to show and that's going to ship as that product even if they announce it six months in advance

00:46:06 ◼   ► like the Apple watch what they showed is basically what they shipped and that's not always the

00:46:11 ◼   ► case if you pre-announce technology three years in advance.

00:46:14 ◼   ► So, that's Apple's earnings. Until next time. I tell you what, I have to say, at least

00:46:19 ◼   ► these are more interesting to talk about. Oh yeah, yeah, that's true. That's true.

00:46:25 ◼   ► I didn't even mention it. I mean, Tim Cook also dropped a line about like the R&D budget

00:46:28 ◼   ► where he basically said, "Yeah, we're growing the R&D budget a whole lot and most of that

00:46:32 ◼   ► growth, almost all of that growth is in entirely new product categories," which was sending

00:46:37 ◼   ► that same signal. That was the car signal, by the way, right there. We're working on

00:46:42 ◼   ► lots of stuff and we're not going to tell you what it is, but it's not new iPhones.

00:46:47 ◼   ► We're working on new iPhones too, but this huge R&D budget increase you're seeing, it's

00:46:51 ◼   ► not on new iPads and iPhones and Macs.

00:46:52 ◼   ► It's Bob Manfield's salary.

00:46:54 ◼   ► Yeah, that's right. We're just paying it to Bob. See what Bob does with it.

00:46:59 ◼   ► Big Bob is expensive. Big Bob needs a big salary.

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00:49:11 ◼   ► So before we get into Myke at the Movies this week, shall we do a quick round of Ask Upgrade?

00:49:22 ◼   ► Let's do it. Do a little Ask Upgrade.

00:49:26 ◼   ► Richard wanted to know if we record the show over video or audio skype. Do we see each

00:49:33 ◼   ► other when we record? We don't. I don't do that of any show. I know a bunch of people

00:49:39 ◼   ► that do. I understand the benefits of it. I have been on shows where there is video

00:49:44 ◼   ► but no published video and I can see why some people like it. Especially if there's multiple

00:49:48 ◼   ► people on a call because people can give visual cues when they want to jump in and that helps

00:49:53 ◼   ► through the edit. But what I don't like is what I always do, I always find myself

00:49:57 ◼   ► doing is I change the way that I talk and I talk knowing the person can see me, I show

00:50:02 ◼   ► things and it doesn't come through in the audio. So that's why I don't do it because

00:50:07 ◼   ► I know that when I do that, the audio listeners, because there are only audio listeners to

00:50:12 ◼   ► our shows, they actually end up in a worse position. This isn't the same for everyone,

00:50:17 ◼   ► not everybody is like this, but it is how I am.

00:50:20 ◼   ► Well, that's how I feel when I'm on Lea LePorte's shows is that they, you know, that is a TV

00:50:24 ◼   ► production. It feels like you're on television and you have to realize that some fairly large

00:50:28 ◼   ► percentage of their audience just listens to the audio and even the people who watch

00:50:32 ◼   ► it on video, because it's talking heads, they're probably not paying that close attention.

00:50:37 ◼   ► So what will happen is people on that show will make reference to like a video that's

00:50:42 ◼   ► playing or they'll hold something up and you realize, what do the audio people get

00:50:46 ◼   ► out of this. So it's problematic. I'd also say there's just some purely pragmatic reasons

00:50:52 ◼   ► we do this, which is video takes more bandwidth and if you're having trouble having clear

00:50:58 ◼   ► audio, again, we all record our own ends of the conversation so the bandwidth doesn't

00:51:03 ◼   ► – the people in the live chat room here, the live bandwidth problems, but people at

00:51:07 ◼   ► home listening – everybody's at home – to the podcast, they don't hear any of that,

00:51:14 ◼   ► we hear it. And so if you make that worse, it's harder to understand the other person.

00:51:17 ◼   ► I'm also doing this over a mobile hotspot because of my internet connection.

00:51:23 ◼   ► We're bandwidth constrained and then you put on top of that that we're streaming

00:51:26 ◼   ► it live, which means that we also have another data stream going back out. There's a lot

00:51:32 ◼   ► going on and so adding video unnecessarily seems like a bad idea from a bandwidth standpoint

00:51:40 ◼   ► too, because some people just don't have the bandwidth for it and it makes their audio

00:51:43 ◼   ► sound bad and some apps scale the video better like if the bandwidth is really bad they drop

00:51:49 ◼   ► the video out or they just make it a little one frame every few seconds but I just sort

00:51:55 ◼   ► of learned not to trust it. We do use video for my podcast Total Party Kill which is the

00:52:02 ◼   ► Dungeons and Dragons podcast we do on the incomparable. We use Google Hangouts usually

00:52:06 ◼   ► for that, although we've used other stuff too. And that is sort of an experiment, but

00:52:14 ◼   ► I think people like it. There we're often referring to a map. And although the audio

00:52:20 ◼   ► version I think you don't need the map to understand it, we got an unusual number of

00:52:25 ◼   ► requests to see what the map was. And the fact is that people watching people play games

00:52:31 ◼   ► on YouTube is a thing. People do that. So we do that now. We record that video. I put

00:52:39 ◼   ► it together. I combine the video with a recording of the map because the map isn't on the Google

00:52:45 ◼   ► Hangout video that gets posted to YouTube. It doesn't come through. It's just the people.

00:52:50 ◼   ► So then I overlay the map video synced up and put the better quality audio on it and

00:52:56 ◼   ► then release that as a video episode. It doesn't have the high quality kind of detailed audio

00:53:00 ◼   ► at it because editing audio and video together is a very different thing than just editing

00:53:06 ◼   ► audio. But we do it there and I like it and it works okay but with that when you've got

00:53:12 ◼   ► six or seven people all talking at once and video you miss a lot. So I don't recommend

00:53:19 ◼   ► it for everybody but I see why people do it.

00:53:22 ◼   ► So next up we have a question from Brando and Brando asked "Is there an iOS text editor

00:53:28 ◼   ► like BBEdit. You mentioned on the show last week that you use BBEdit on the Mac. I know

00:53:34 ◼   ► there isn't a BBEdit iPhone app or iPad app so what do you use on iOS and is it like BBEdit?

00:53:41 ◼   ► Tim: I use OneWriter and it's not really like BBEdit but it's got some markdown features

00:53:46 ◼   ► which is what I use BBEdit for too really and it's got macro language in OneWriter's

00:53:52 ◼   ► case I think it's JavaScript, it's got some macros that you can use. Editorial is also

00:53:56 ◼   ► very good if you prefer doing writing macros in Python. And there are many, many, many

00:54:02 ◼   ► others and I've tried many of them and I switch back and forth all the time, but one writer

00:54:08 ◼   ► is the one that I'm using at present. It's got nice Dropbox integration, good markdown

00:54:12 ◼   ► support and so that's what I'm using right now. But there are lots out there and they're

00:54:16 ◼   ► all pretty cheap too. So, yeah.

00:54:18 ◼   ► Cool. Good tip. One writer is really great. I've been meaning to check out Scrivener.

00:54:25 ◼   ► I'll tell you what I've been thinking about doing it for.

00:54:28 ◼   ► To keep kind of a good log of all of the advertising copy that I write in an application in some

00:54:34 ◼   ► folders and to keep previous versions of all of it.

00:54:39 ◼   ► That could work.

00:54:40 ◼   ► So I'm not really doing that.

00:54:41 ◼   ► I just put them into our system and I just replace them every time.

00:54:45 ◼   ► But there are some times where it could be useful for me to go back and refer to something.

00:54:51 ◼   ► It's only ever happened a few times but when I then don't have it it's like "Oh man, I

00:54:54 ◼   ► I wish I had it. So I've been thinking about it, I've been thinking about that, or maybe

00:54:58 ◼   ► I think Ulysses could do the same so I've been meaning of trying them both out. Yeah,

00:55:04 ◼   ► so that might be something for later on.

00:55:06 ◼   ► Rajeev asked, "Will the next iPhone storage capacities be 3264 and 128GB or 32, 128 and

00:55:15 ◼   ► 256GB?" My favorite thing about this question is that Rajeev seems to be completely ignoring

00:55:21 ◼   ► any possibility of a 16GB phone.

00:55:25 ◼   ► I'm not sold on whether they will or won't be one.

00:55:30 ◼   ► If Apple put out a 16GB version of the iPhone 7, I think I will be disappointed, not surprised.

00:55:39 ◼   ► Because they haven't done it yet, so why would they?

00:55:42 ◼   ► But anyway, I think if the rumours are true that we've been seeing about there being three

00:55:47 ◼   ► the iPhone 7, the iPhone 7 Plus and the iPhone 7 Pro.

00:55:52 ◼   ► If, yeah, that's to be the leaves.

00:55:55 ◼   ► It'll be regular Plus and Pro.

00:55:57 ◼   ► I think there will be a 256 gigabyte.

00:56:00 ◼   ► Other than that-- - Makes sense.

00:56:01 ◼   ► - I'm not sure that there would be a 256.

00:56:03 ◼   ► I don't think the need for a 256 is there

00:56:08 ◼   ► other than as a way to charge a higher price.

00:56:13 ◼   ► I don't think the 256 gigabyte iPhone is required

00:56:16 ◼   ► as many people as it is for something like the iPad where there's likely to be more movies

00:56:22 ◼   ► and stuff on that kind of device. We'll see. Do you agree with that thinking?

00:56:27 ◼   ► Yeah, I think so. I think it's more likely that they'll do 32-64-128 and then it's what

00:56:33 ◼   ► you're saying which is on some models that are considered high-end models, maybe they

00:56:39 ◼   ► offer it as a 32-64-256 or 32-128-256 or 64-128-256, right? It depends. But offer on

00:56:52 ◼   ► certain models like an iPhone Pro if there's something like that, something like they do

00:56:58 ◼   ► on the iPad Pro where there's a big jump that you can get at the top end. That's

00:57:05 ◼   ► I would see it. But I think the 3264/128 is the most likely. Just because Apple tends

00:57:10 ◼   ► to be really conservative, I'll use a generous word there, with what specs it puts in those

00:57:17 ◼   ► devices in terms of storage. But hey, if somebody wants to pay, I mean you could really argue

00:57:22 ◼   ► like the margins on going from 128 to 256, given what Apple charges, are so huge that

00:57:27 ◼   ► why wouldn't you offer it as an option other than the complexity of the SKU because…

00:57:31 ◼   ► you

00:57:50 ◼   ► I'm not sure if anybody has a better answer than this,

00:57:52 ◼   ► then please let me know.

00:57:53 ◼   ► Eddie wants to know, how can I export all of the photos

00:57:56 ◼   ► from my messages on iOS?

00:57:59 ◼   ► I have too many to do one at a time.

00:58:01 ◼   ► I mean, one thing I'll say to Eddie is,

00:58:04 ◼   ► change your process now.

00:58:07 ◼   ► Like from now on, if you're receiving photos

00:58:10 ◼   ► that you think you might want,

00:58:11 ◼   ► start saving them to the camera roll.

00:58:13 ◼   ► That would be my number one recommendation there.

00:58:17 ◼   ► I would suggest that you check out Phone View by Ecamm.

00:58:23 ◼   ► What I know they can do is export your messages into a way that they can be read in their

00:58:31 ◼   ► application or can export them as PDF documents and stuff and that includes your pictures.

00:58:38 ◼   ► But I don't know if they are able to export a file for you which just extracts the photos

00:58:44 ◼   ► or if the file that they give you, you can pull images from.

00:58:48 ◼   ► So it might be a way that you could export them all to a folder

00:58:52 ◼   ► and then could find a way to extract the images from those folders.

00:58:56 ◼   ► Other than that I don't know. There are a bunch of backup utilities and stuff but

00:59:00 ◼   ► I don't want to recommend, necessarily recommend them blindly. I'm recommending

00:59:04 ◼   ► an app to you that I have used in the past so I believe it to be good.

00:59:08 ◼   ► Plus Ecamm are responsible software developers.

00:59:11 ◼   ► I use their products every single day

00:59:15 ◼   ► with their core recorder.

00:59:16 ◼   ► So I would suggest checking that out.

00:59:19 ◼   ► They do have a free trial, so you can go and do it.

00:59:22 ◼   ► Other than that, I'm not sure of what else could do it.

00:59:27 ◼   ► Or at least, when I was Googling, I was finding some stuff,

00:59:33 ◼   ► but I wouldn't recommend that stuff

00:59:36 ◼   ► because I can't trust them.

00:59:38 ◼   ► So I would say give PhoneView a go.

00:59:40 ◼   ► if it doesn't i'm not sure if you're out there listening you know how eddie can get the photos

00:59:45 ◼   ► from his messages

00:59:47 ◼   ► then please write in and we'll provide follow up later on

00:59:52 ◼   ► so that is uh... ask upgrade segment

00:59:55 ◼   ► which means it is time for mike at the movies

00:59:59 ◼   ► to celebrate our one hundredth episode you chose star trek 2 the wrath of khan

01:00:04 ◼   ► can you sum up why this was your choice for episode one hundred why the wrath

01:00:08 ◼   ► of Khan, why not something else?

01:00:11 ◼   ► Well, we have a spreadsheet and it lists movies that you haven't seen and some that I haven't

01:00:17 ◼   ► seen.

01:00:18 ◼   ► Mm-hmm.

01:00:19 ◼   ► And we had a conversation too where we were talking about Star Trek and you mentioned

01:00:22 ◼   ► that you'd seen the new Star Trek movies but not any of the old Star Trek movies.

01:00:26 ◼   ► And that shocked and appalled me.

01:00:28 ◼   ► Yeah.

01:00:29 ◼   ► And Star Trek II, The Wrath of Khan is one of my favorite movies of all time.

01:00:33 ◼   ► So I thought you should watch it because then you will have seen it.

01:00:38 ◼   ► And if nothing else, I would also say that like, do you watch the James Bond movies?

01:00:43 ◼   ► Do you watch those?

01:00:44 ◼   ► Of course I do.

01:00:45 ◼   ► I love the James Bond movies.

01:00:46 ◼   ► You're English.

01:00:47 ◼   ► I think it's probably the law that you watch them.

01:00:48 ◼   ► It's in our school's curriculum.

01:00:50 ◼   ► Yes, exactly, as it should be.

01:00:53 ◼   ► I would say Goldfinger, follow me here, Goldfinger is relevant not just because it's a good

01:01:06 ◼   ► James Bond movie, one of the earliest, the third James Bond movie, but I think it's

01:01:10 ◼   ► relevant in that I think you could probably look at every James Bond movie after Goldfinger

01:01:15 ◼   ► as being an attempt to do Goldfinger in some way, to be Goldfinger. Goldfinger ended up

01:01:21 ◼   ► becoming sort of the template for a James Bond movie.

01:01:24 ◼   ► I agree.

01:01:25 ◼   ► And I could argue, having seen all the Bond movies myself, I could argue to the detriment

01:01:30 ◼   ► of the series as a whole because sometimes I feel like the Bond movies needed to try

01:01:35 ◼   ► try not be Goldfinger and just do something different and instead they kept on kind of

01:01:40 ◼   ► replaying aspects of Goldfinger. Not always the same aspects but replaying the aspects.

01:01:45 ◼   ► I would make that same argument for Star Trek II. I feel like Star Trek II, which was coming

01:01:50 ◼   ► on the heels of not very successful, very expensive and not generally well liked Star

01:01:56 ◼   ► Trek the Motion Picture, although it did actually do well in the box office, it was not critically

01:01:59 ◼   ► successful and everybody thought it was pretty boring. They gave them a smaller, a much smaller

01:02:05 ◼   ► smaller budget to make this movie and people really liked it. It was a critical success.

01:02:10 ◼   ► It did pretty well at the box office and then they made many more Star Trek movies after

01:02:14 ◼   ► this. That's all great, but I also feel like the weight of Star Trek II on every other

01:02:21 ◼   ► Star Trek movie that I see it. All the J.J. Abrams produced Star Trek movies have it.

01:02:27 ◼   ► Star Trek Into Darkness is essentially a two hour homage to Star Trek II and but even the

01:02:34 ◼   ► next generation movies feel like you can see the way the villains are constructed in Star

01:02:39 ◼   ► Trek movies. It's just so much of Star Trek on film is an attempt to kind of recreate

01:02:45 ◼   ► or quote Star Trek II The Wrath of Khan. So on that level, I kind of feel like it's

01:02:49 ◼   ► worth watching just from as a representative of the best of the original crew movies and

01:02:55 ◼   ► as the movie that sort of defined what people were going to try to do with Star Trek movies

01:02:59 ◼   ► after that.

01:03:00 ◼   ► So, thank you for your opening statement.

01:03:04 ◼   ► That is my opening statement.

01:03:05 ◼   ► Turns out I wasn't expecting it, but there was.

01:03:07 ◼   ► I have an opening statement.

01:03:09 ◼   ► Okay.

01:03:10 ◼   ► So my opening statement is my feelings that I wrote down before I watched the movie.

01:03:13 ◼   ► This is Myke at the Movie Style here.

01:03:16 ◼   ► Okay.

01:03:17 ◼   ► I was not excited about this movie, Jason.

01:03:20 ◼   ► I had been dreading it.

01:03:22 ◼   ► I don't know why, I just thought I wasn't going to like it.

01:03:26 ◼   ► I don't know why.

01:03:27 ◼   ► There's a reason why I hadn't picked it up till now too, is I've been a little worried

01:03:31 ◼   ► about it too.

01:03:33 ◼   ► And this is, I think this ends up in why I ended up just watching it this morning. We

01:03:38 ◼   ► picked this weeks ago, but I watched it today. I put it off to the very last moment. But

01:03:42 ◼   ► I do actually enjoy watching them on the same day because they're fresh in my mind. One

01:03:46 ◼   ► of the reasons that I wasn't looking forward to this is that I have such little knowledge

01:03:51 ◼   ► about Star Trek and especially this crew. Like I know these people to be the Star Trek

01:03:57 ◼   ► crew, right? Like we just know this about them. You know, Shatner and Nimoy, like they

01:04:03 ◼   ► are synonymous with Star Trek, but I've never watched any of it. So I have no feeling about

01:04:09 ◼   ► them, right? It's just not something that I've ever paid any attention to. So it's just

01:04:16 ◼   ► been a thing that I had no absolutely no attachment to and I thought that was going to hinder

01:04:22 ◼   ► my enjoyment of the movie because my instinct was that you would only really enjoy it if

01:04:27 ◼   ► you were coming to them with both existing emotional attachment and knowledge of the

01:04:32 ◼   ► TV show and previous movie. That was my feeling. I was coming into the sequel. So that I figured

01:04:41 ◼   ► I would not enjoy this movie. I have a question for you.

01:04:44 ◼   ► yes were these the TV show actors like this is the crew that were in the TV show right

01:04:50 ◼   ► yes and I would actually say it's not a sequel it's funny because it's Star Trek 2

01:04:53 ◼   ► because the motion picture was was completely different in terms of right production design

01:05:01 ◼   ► okay then this then this movie and the producers were different the creative team was essentially

01:05:06 ◼   ► different just the uh really just the actors are the same well yeah I mean you know it might

01:05:11 ◼   ► it might be a sequel in name only but two suggests sequel to me.

01:05:15 ◼   ► Well I mean and on Star Trek right I mean it's at the very least it's a sequel to 70 some odd

01:05:20 ◼   ► episodes of a tv show that became successful and then they made a movie and now here's another

01:05:26 ◼   ► movie right you're coming in you're coming in 80 hours late basically. Yep it's difficult for me

01:05:31 ◼   ► to tell because of when the movie was made so when was it 82. 82 yeah so it's it's the core cast the

01:05:39 ◼   ► the seven core cast members are from the original Star Trek. There are other actors in this

01:05:44 ◼   ► that were not seen in the original Star Trek. Ricardo Montalban was in an episode of the

01:05:49 ◼   ► original Star Trek that this is the sequel to. If it is a sequel to anything, it is to

01:05:53 ◼   ► an episode called Space Seed where they find Khan floating in space and they bring him

01:05:58 ◼   ► on board the Enterprise and he tries to take the Enterprise over and they beat him and

01:06:02 ◼   ► put him on a planet and say, instead of arresting him and taking him into prison, they put them

01:06:08 ◼   ► all down on a planet that is rough but they should be able to make a living there and

01:06:12 ◼   ► they say, "Well, it'll be interesting to check back in a hundred years and see what the supermen

01:06:18 ◼   ► can do with this planet." And that was, so Montalban was in that. All the other actors

01:06:23 ◼   ► in this have not been in Star Trek before. Kirstie Alley wasn't in Star Trek before.

01:06:27 ◼   ► Merritt Buttrick and B.B. Besch, who play Carol and David Marcus, were not in Star Trek

01:06:31 ◼   ► before. Just Montalban and then the core sort of seven cast members.

01:06:36 ◼   ► So, I think I'm gonna have a really weird opinion of this movie, which...

01:06:41 ◼   ► You watched Star Trek Into Darkness before you watched Star Trek II The Wrath of Khan,

01:06:44 ◼   ► so you've already got a very weird perspective on this movie.

01:06:46 ◼   ► The thing is, though, like, yeah, but they didn't... they don't feel like anything close

01:06:53 ◼   ► to each other other than the names we used, to me.

01:06:56 ◼   ► It just doesn't feel like at all the same movie.

01:06:59 ◼   ► The plot is so different.

01:07:01 ◼   ► Oh, I agree.

01:07:02 ◼   ► really the stuff at the end that is quoted directly by the other movie. Yeah.

01:07:07 ◼   ► And like that one scene, like the scene where everybody, well, the scene where there's

01:07:12 ◼   ► like the death, right? But they reverse the roles.

01:07:16 ◼   ► Right. Exactly. And also it's not the same anyway, right?

01:07:19 ◼   ► Because Kirk lives. I know there is that one little thing that,

01:07:23 ◼   ► well, spoiler for movies from the 80s, they bring Spock back too.

01:07:27 ◼   ► I guessed that at the end of the movie, couldn't write that more if it tried.

01:07:32 ◼   ► I know. I was honestly expecting for like Spock's

01:07:35 ◼   ► hand to come out of the casket at the end. Like that's, that, they, this planet generates

01:07:42 ◼   ► life. It generates life, you say? Like, oh come on.

01:07:47 ◼   ► I know. I know. It's true. Yes, well Star Trek 3 is called The Search for Spock, and

01:07:52 ◼   ► guess what? They find Spock. But anyway, that's not about, this is not about Star Trek 3.

01:07:59 ◼   ► So what I was going to ask you, and the reason it's difficult for me because of the time

01:08:04 ◼   ► it was made, was this movie, did it have a big movie budget or is it like an extended

01:08:11 ◼   ► episode of the TV show budget-wise?

01:08:12 ◼   ► Oh, well it's more like the TV show if you see any of those old TV episodes, the budget

01:08:17 ◼   ► was a lot lower for those.

01:08:19 ◼   ► But it is not, so Star Trek the motion picture was made on an enormous budget and like I

01:08:24 ◼   ► said it was, it's really boring.

01:08:26 ◼   ► This was made on a much, much smaller budget. So it is, I wouldn't say a low budget movie,

01:08:33 ◼   ► but I would say it is a modest budget for a science fiction feature film in 1982.

01:08:40 ◼   ► Okay, cool. Alright, so. I feel like I'm going to hold off my feelings about this movie

01:08:47 ◼   ► because they change so much throughout my notes. I don't want to spoil it because

01:08:52 ◼   ► I'll have to give, it won't make sense I don't think.

01:08:55 ◼   ► So, where do you want to start? Start at the start. I'm going to go chronologically

01:08:59 ◼   ► through my thoughts here. Kobayashi Maru. I know what this is!

01:09:03 ◼   ► Yeah, well this is one of those things that's been quoted. The J.J. Abrams movie, the first

01:09:07 ◼   ► J.J. Abrams Star Trek movie, we see Captain Kirk cheat at the Kobayashi Maru and this

01:09:13 ◼   ► is where that originated, is in this movie. Where we see, and it's funny, one of the

01:09:18 ◼   ► funny things about this, the way this movie starts, is it's the bridge of the Enterprise

01:09:23 ◼   ► and everybody we see is familiar except instead of Kirk as the captain there is this Vulcan

01:09:30 ◼   ► woman played by Kirstie Alley sitting in the captain's chair and it's meant to be like

01:09:34 ◼   ► what? It's a double fake out right? It is right. There's a new crew and then they all

01:09:39 ◼   ► die. They all die. But it's a simulation and so like one of the moments is ruined for me

01:09:45 ◼   ► in this movie because I know that Kirk cheats. Yeah. To be it. That's true. Because I've

01:09:51 ◼   ► that from the other movie because that was an important plot point later. So like, and

01:09:56 ◼   ► then there's they kind of had the fake out and everybody is established and we find out

01:10:01 ◼   ► that Kirk is now an admiral. And it's his birthday. And there is a lot being set up

01:10:08 ◼   ► here, which I think is a good way to play it because of how everybody looks that everyone's

01:10:14 ◼   ► getting old. That is a big theme about this movie. Yeah, these actors. I mean, I don't

01:10:20 ◼   ► know how old they are but they look TV old to me.

01:10:23 ◼   ► So the, the, I think the implication and it's never set out right is that Captain Kirk is

01:10:29 ◼   ► turning 50. Okay. And that, that's what's happening here. Another funny note is that

01:10:34 ◼   ► Star Trek the motion picture I would argue tries to make them seem like, it, it feels

01:10:41 ◼   ► much more like a continuation of the original series like well yeah it's ten years later

01:10:44 ◼   ► but we're still off for some dashing adventures with your young TV crew. They're a little

01:10:48 ◼   ► older but still we're off and here, which is only three years later, in this movie they're

01:10:54 ◼   ► like "No, they're getting old." Like that is what this movie is about. It's about getting

01:11:00 ◼   ► old and coming to terms with your mortality and all of these things. And I think to this

01:11:05 ◼   ► movie's great benefit, that's what they decided to do with this movie as opposed to the movie

01:11:10 ◼   ► three years before. And if you see pictures from it, they're all wearing uniforms that

01:11:14 ◼   ► look like they're in pajamas and they're fighting against age and here they're embracing

01:11:22 ◼   ► it or at least being aware of it from the very first scene where Kirk says gallivanting

01:11:29 ◼   ► around the cosmos is a game for the young and he walks out. And they're like, "What's

01:11:34 ◼   ► his problem?"

01:11:35 ◼   ► Yeah, so it's like, it's his birthday, they have all these new crew and these new

01:11:38 ◼   ► recruits that Spock is leading because Kirk is an admiral now and Spock is now captain.

01:11:44 ◼   ► One of the ways I really like that they set up the age thing with Kirk is having him have

01:11:50 ◼   ► reading glasses and they come up with like an in-universe reason that he has to have

01:11:55 ◼   ► reading glasses which is like allergic to some drug that people take now which is genius.

01:12:00 ◼   ► It fixes your vision, yeah, and he's like "no, yeah, I know." So the doctor, Dr. McCoy

01:12:04 ◼   ► comes over and says "normally I'd give you this drug but instead have these old glasses"

01:12:09 ◼   ► and also he brings illegal whiskey or Romulan ale. Romulan ale. I don't know why they call

01:12:13 ◼   ► it ale but then drink it like it's whiskey. Why didn't they just call it Romulan whiskey?

01:12:18 ◼   ► That's how the Romulans do it. I don't know. No, unacceptable. Unacceptable.

01:12:22 ◼   ► Yeah, at the Star Trek experience in Las Vegas when that was open you could order a Romulan

01:12:27 ◼   ► ale. It was blue. Was it a short drink?

01:12:31 ◼   ► No, it was an ale. It was an actual beer ale. What's going on here? It's ridiculous.

01:12:35 ◼   ► Yeah, I know. And then I'm gonna kind of jump around in

01:12:39 ◼   ► this a little bit because I tend to write more like exhaustive notes but I didn't with

01:12:43 ◼   ► this one just because sometimes these can run forever. What I'm going to jump to next

01:12:49 ◼   ► is when Chekov and his captain, I believe his name is Tarel, they investigate a planet

01:12:54 ◼   ► to be used for an experiment and all we kind of know at the moment is it's an experiment

01:13:00 ◼   ► and they come across someone's living quarters and Chekov freaks out when he sees Botany Bay,

01:13:05 ◼   ► "Oh no!" Perfect. And then he whispers "Khaaaaan" like that. And then it's established Khan

01:13:15 ◼   ► appears and him and his crew capture Chekhov and Tyrell. And Chekhov refers to Khan as

01:13:23 ◼   ► a product of late 20th century genetic engineering. Right, which was good because it then proved

01:13:28 ◼   ► to me why he was so strong. Now this is where the story goes a bit weird for me as someone

01:13:33 ◼   ► who has no prior experience. It's really interesting to me to know that people that

01:13:37 ◼   ► watched the franchise would know all about Khan.

01:13:40 ◼   ► Well, but the way the movie is structured, right, is they don't want just people who

01:13:43 ◼   ► have an encyclopedic knowledge of Star Trek. So if you know that episode, you're like,

01:13:49 ◼   ► "Oh, yes." But if you don't, like you don't, they need to explain it for you. Because

01:13:55 ◼   ► I think they have to assume that most of the people going to the movie in 1982 are not

01:13:59 ◼   ► going to remember that episode of Star Trek from 1968.

01:14:02 ◼   ► Sure, but the reason I mentioned this is because they do explain it, but they explain it in such a way

01:14:08 ◼   ► That the story makes Kirk sound like a villain to me. Yeah

01:14:12 ◼   ► From well from Khan's perspective. He is for sure, but even the way that Chekhov explains it. It's like we

01:14:20 ◼   ► Marooned this guy here

01:14:23 ◼   ► like we sent him here and him and his crew were basically just sent to either to die or to make their own way and

01:14:30 ◼   ► And Chekhov says that Khan tried to kill Kirk, which was what made me realize that there

01:14:35 ◼   ► was some kind of evil doings here, but the whole time, and this actually is something

01:14:40 ◼   ► that prevails throughout the whole movie to me, is like, who is good and bad? I've really

01:14:45 ◼   ► struggled to work it out.

01:14:46 ◼   ► Well, one of the good, a good villain has a motivation, and I think that's one of

01:14:50 ◼   ► the strengths of Khan, is that we, even though yes, he's a madman out for vengeance, he

01:14:54 ◼   ► has his reasons, because as Chekhov says, on "City Alpha Five" there was life and

01:14:58 ◼   ► a chance. They put him on a good planet where they could make a living and not be miserable.

01:15:05 ◼   ► This is an inhospitable desert that they're in. And then Khan replies with the classic

01:15:12 ◼   ► line, "This is Seti Alpha 5!" Which is, "Oh, crap. This is not the planet I thought

01:15:20 ◼   ► it was." Chekhov is a little confused here because Chekhov is expecting to see a fairly

01:15:25 ◼   ► lush world where they're able to establish themselves instead of this complete ruined

01:15:31 ◼   ► desert. But something happened and a planet exploded or whatever and it ruined the ecology

01:15:36 ◼   ► of this planet. So Kirk has unwittingly sent them to basically, almost like a death sentence

01:15:43 ◼   ► on this, a terrible subsistence living is all that they can manage on this desert planet.

01:15:49 ◼   ► So Kirk's little plan to let them not be put in prison has backfired and made Khan

01:15:55 ◼   ► furious and his wife died and he's very angry.

01:15:58 ◼   ► He then, Khan plants these bugs into very realistic looking ears of Tyrell and Chekhov.

01:16:07 ◼   ► That's what people remember from this movie a lot is the bugs in the ears.

01:16:12 ◼   ► And it's horrifying.

01:16:13 ◼   ► these bugs wrap around the cerebral cortex and make people very suggestible until they

01:16:20 ◼   ► go mad. And I'm pretty sure he said "mad" and "die" even though Chekhov doesn't

01:16:26 ◼   ► die. Well that's because it comes out. It's not explained why that happens. It's

01:16:32 ◼   ► paid to close attention but it pops out of his ear and it's fine. Yeah, I saw that

01:16:36 ◼   ► it came out but it's like "why did it come out?" That is just not explained.

01:16:40 ◼   ► just like, oh, Chekhov lived.

01:16:42 ◼   ► - He was very angry or upset and it ran away, I guess.

01:16:45 ◼   ► Yeah, it's not explained at all.

01:16:47 ◼   ► - And then we go back to Kirk.

01:16:50 ◼   ► Kirk is taking, he's at the Enterprise,

01:16:54 ◼   ► he's gone for an inspection with some of the old crew,

01:16:57 ◼   ► including, is it Bone?

01:16:59 ◼   ► He goes with Bones, Sulu, and Uhura, right?

01:17:02 ◼   ► They go to make an inspection on the Enterprise.

01:17:07 ◼   ► And very quickly, Kirk takes control of the Enterprise

01:17:10 ◼   ► investigate a research facility after he's received a message that they can't fully understand.

01:17:19 ◼   ► Yeah, there's a garbled message he gets from Carol Marcus who he knows, we are led to believe

01:17:25 ◼   ► that they have a past because McCoy brings it up. We see her with her son earlier where

01:17:31 ◼   ► they get the call from Chekov. But we don't know it's her son yet.

01:17:36 ◼   ► - Yeah, that's true, it's just a tall blonde fellow.

01:17:40 ◼   ► But they, does he not call her mother at that point?

01:17:42 ◼   ► - No, he doesn't.

01:17:43 ◼   ► - Anyway, they're skeptical because of,

01:17:47 ◼   ► he doesn't trust the Federation,

01:17:48 ◼   ► he doesn't trust Captain Kirk.

01:17:51 ◼   ► All of these things are going on with these poor scientists

01:17:56 ◼   ► who are being, who are, the Chekhov ship is trying to,

01:18:00 ◼   ► trying to work for them and now they're worried

01:18:02 ◼   ► that the military is gonna take their experiment

01:18:04 ◼   ► away from them. And so Kirk has to, Kirk gets the garbled message from her and that they're

01:18:11 ◼   ► taking Genesis. Why are you taking Genesis? And it breaks up jammed at the source, which

01:18:16 ◼   ► is a bad sign. And so then Kirk and Spock and McCoy are like, "Genesis, anyone?" And

01:18:23 ◼   ► he has to explain that it's a weapon. It's supposed to be a scientific tool, but it could

01:18:27 ◼   ► be used as a weapon if you fire it at a planet.

01:18:29 ◼   ► It will turn it into a new planet with life on it, but if there's life on the planet,

01:18:36 ◼   ► it will just destroy the planet and replace it with new life instead.

01:18:40 ◼   ► So then we get Kirk taking control of the Enterprise again after a great exchange between

01:18:48 ◼   ► him and Spock where Spock's like "I know you want to do this, like just do this, like

01:18:52 ◼   ► let's just stop." He's like "I have no ego to be bruised here, I'm a Vulcan, like

01:18:57 ◼   ► just take control of the ship. So he does and you can see how excited he is, like he's

01:19:01 ◼   ► super happy to take control again. The Genesis device is a really great MacGuffin.

01:19:07 ◼   ► Yeah, it's their nuclear bomb, basically.

01:19:10 ◼   ► Yeah, it's very well made and it's also, you can see why it exists. So many of these things

01:19:16 ◼   ► that become weapons, like why does it exist in the first place? Like why would anybody

01:19:20 ◼   ► build this? It's obvious how terrible this is going to go, but with this one it's like,

01:19:25 ◼   ► yeah, it could go bad, but the good is so good it's worth doing.

01:19:28 ◼   ► Well, it's made by idealistic scientists who, I mean, it's this constant push and

01:19:32 ◼   ► pull between the scientists who build things and the military that deploy them. And the

01:19:37 ◼   ► argument here is that they're building this because the galaxy is filled with lifeless

01:19:41 ◼   ► planets and we can use this technology to instantly make them livable, to terraform

01:19:48 ◼   ► them. And that is fantastic because then there are more places to grow things and for people

01:19:52 ◼   ► to live. The demo reel, by the way, is one of the first substantial pieces of computer

01:19:59 ◼   ► animation in any motion picture. That's an entirely computer animated demo where they

01:20:05 ◼   ► shoot the missile onto the dead world and zip through on the surface and come back around

01:20:11 ◼   ► on the other side and it's a living world. That's basically the first big piece of CGI

01:20:15 ◼   ► in any movie.

01:20:16 ◼   ► I bet that cost a lot of money.

01:20:17 ◼   ► I think it did.

01:20:21 ◼   ► Is Khan's chest real? You know, I want to believe. I don't think it is. It looked

01:20:29 ◼   ► very fake to me. And it was just, I kept looking at it. It's like, "Have you got a real

01:20:34 ◼   ► chest there, Ricardo?" I couldn't tell. I don't think it was. It looked too perfectly

01:20:39 ◼   ► sculpted. It's very impressive though, isn't it? Yeah, and it's, the fact that it's

01:20:43 ◼   ► on show as much as it is makes me think it's not real. I don't know, but if it was real,

01:20:50 ◼   ► Bravo Ricardo, bravo. You did good work there my friend, you did good work indeed. I found

01:20:59 ◼   ► it really interesting how so they have their first encounter right where it's ship versus

01:21:04 ◼   ► ship because Khan's taken control and he's brought the what was the name of the ship?

01:21:09 ◼   ► The Reliant. And they've kind of tricked they've tricked the enterprise into believing

01:21:17 ◼   ► We're all one happy fleet. You know, where they don't have their shields up. It's a really nice exchange where they get, as Kirk says, he gets caught with his britches down.

01:21:26 ◼   ► And then he has to, Kirk has to reason a way out of this, a trick to survive because Khan is just going to blow them up.

01:21:34 ◼   ► So then there's like, he ends up overriding the control panel because it's a failsafe built in for this very reason. Also very believable.

01:21:45 ◼   ► movie is very well written for the way they get out of things. They're all plausible.

01:21:51 ◼   ► And that is very plausible. It's like, well of course you have an override, right? And

01:21:55 ◼   ► of course nobody knows it, right? It's like, it's got to be kept secret. It's the point

01:21:59 ◼   ► of the override. And Scott McNulty always points out that you

01:22:02 ◼   ► probably shouldn't have the password to control your starship be six digits, but it was 1982.

01:22:08 ◼   ► It's fine. They didn't have the computing power, I guess,

01:22:12 ◼   ► maybe in the future history past. And so then there's a they end up they fight back and

01:22:19 ◼   ► that kind of thing and they end up scaring them away effectively. It gets really dark

01:22:25 ◼   ► here in a way that I didn't expect. The injuries are very graphic of the crew of the Enterprise

01:22:35 ◼   ► and the one guy that dies…

01:22:37 ◼   ► Yeah, the one crewman, the young engineering crewman, has horrible burns and dies.

01:22:44 ◼   ► And leaves the literal blood of himself on Kirk.

01:22:49 ◼   ► On Kirk's jacket, for as long as he wears that jacket.

01:22:53 ◼   ► It's very ham-fisted, right?

01:22:55 ◼   ► The blood of these people is on Kirk, but it still makes the point that for the next

01:23:01 ◼   ► while you were very aware of the mistake that Kirk made.

01:23:06 ◼   ► though I feel a bad point in this movie or a point that could be done differently is

01:23:10 ◼   ► he feels he shows no remorse for this Kirk like they have that one moment in the in the

01:23:18 ◼   ► medical bay but no other point in this movie is even referenced that a bad call from him

01:23:25 ◼   ► or not reacting well enough resulted in all these young people dying on their first mission

01:23:31 ◼   ► which they were never supposed to go on in the first place, which he urged to go on because

01:23:36 ◼   ► he was so desperate to go on another mission. Like this is never really called up by anyone,

01:23:42 ◼   ► including him. And especially when at the end of the movie, like, this one's like,

01:23:45 ◼   ► "You've never faced death like this before, have you, Dad?" Like, what about all the

01:23:48 ◼   ► people that died?

01:23:49 ◼   ► - Yeah. No, I think it's a good point. And also there's a moment where, you know, he's

01:23:54 ◼   ► really responsible. His judgment, I think it's all weighing on him throughout. But

01:23:58 ◼   ► But I agree it's not as directly as dressed as maybe it could be.

01:24:03 ◼   ► There's a funny quirky, you know, it's not a funny moment, but there's a moment where

01:24:11 ◼   ► Terrell says to him later, "He blames you for the death of his wife."

01:24:15 ◼   ► And Kirk says, "I know what he blames me for."

01:24:18 ◼   ► But you know, it is a reminder that Kirk got them into this.

01:24:22 ◼   ► Not only did he take the ship and then keep the shields down and allow all that damage

01:24:27 ◼   ► to happen that he has to then kind of work his way out of, but he caused this problem.

01:24:32 ◼   ► Like it's his problem and it's come back to haunt him.

01:24:35 ◼   ► Matt: Yeah, he made a previously bad decision to exile these people.

01:24:38 ◼   ► JE.S.T.

01:24:39 ◼   ► And everyone around him, yes.

01:24:40 ◼   ► Matt.

01:24:41 ◼   ► The kind of the brutalness of it all continues as Kirk beams to the research facility.

01:24:47 ◼   ► JE.S.T.

01:24:48 ◼   ► The space station, yeah.

01:24:49 ◼   ► Matt.

01:24:50 ◼   ► And they are brutally murdered, all of the scientists, and like hung?

01:24:52 ◼   ► JE.S.T.

01:24:53 ◼   ► Yeah.

01:24:54 ◼   ► Matt.

01:24:55 ◼   ► It's very brutal.

01:24:56 ◼   ► is not as happy-go-lucky as I was expecting an 80s Star Trek movie to be in all honesty.

01:25:02 ◼   ► Yeah. I mean, I don't know if that is something I should or shouldn't have expected.

01:25:06 ◼   ► Star Trek IV is the happy-go-lucky movie you want, but this is not it. Yeah.

01:25:10 ◼   ► I don't know if it's what I want. I actually think I prefer this because I think part of what I was

01:25:14 ◼   ► dreading was it was just going to be like bubblegum space movies. Oh yeah. Oh no, it's, it's, I like

01:25:19 ◼   ► like this. In fact, in the 80s, I had the novelization of Star Trek II, and one of the

01:25:28 ◼   ► things that I really like that's not in the movie, that's in the book, is you spend

01:25:31 ◼   ► way more time with these scientists, and you see when Khan comes and they're trying to

01:25:38 ◼   ► get away as Khan and his people are killing them, and it's horrific. And here all we

01:25:45 ◼   ► get is the aftermath, which is they beam down to the station, "Where is everybody?" And

01:25:49 ◼   ► there's a whole bunch of dead scientists hung upside down with their throats cut in the

01:25:55 ◼   ► middle of this thing and you just get the sense like something, you know, this is a

01:25:59 ◼   ► murder scene and the movie, you know, you get it but you don't see all that horrible

01:26:04 ◼   ► violence but obviously this is a place of horrible violence. Somebody, Khan came here

01:26:08 ◼   ► and killed the scientists who were working on Genesis and he didn't get what he wants

01:26:14 ◼   ► apparently because he's still asking for it. So what's that about?

01:26:16 ◼   ► It's also not completely clear. I wasn't expecting this.

01:26:18 ◼   ► Like a couple of reasons, and I think the movie sets it up well.

01:26:21 ◼   ► Like Chekov says it will be three days until they get there.

01:26:24 ◼   ► Now obviously he was tricking them.

01:26:26 ◼   ► He was lying, yeah.

01:26:27 ◼   ► Yeah.

01:26:28 ◼   ► So that, but I didn't realize that. It didn't even cross my mind.

01:26:32 ◼   ► And also when Khan comes to attack the Enterprise,

01:26:37 ◼   ► there was no reference made to the fact that their mission was so far unsuccessful.

01:26:41 ◼   ► Right.

01:26:42 ◼   ► So it was a surprise to see everybody dead.

01:26:45 ◼   ► I was expecting them to get there and all the scientists were going to be there, you

01:26:49 ◼   ► know, and then they were going to work on a plan together.

01:26:51 ◼   ► Yeah, it's a, they leave that moment for the characters from the Enterprise to discover

01:26:58 ◼   ► that there's nobody there. And that's an interesting, I mean, not only is it horrible

01:27:04 ◼   ► and you're like, "Oh, Khan was already here. He killed everybody. Then he came and

01:27:09 ◼   ► asked us about this. What's that about? Did he not get what he wants? What's going

01:27:13 ◼   ► on and then it gives them a little mystery to solve on the space station of what's

01:27:17 ◼   ► going on here.

01:27:18 ◼   ► Ben: And then they meet Tarel and Chekov, they're like hidden away in there and it's

01:27:23 ◼   ► interesting at this point because I genuinely couldn't tell who they were working for,

01:27:28 ◼   ► which is again very well written because it's like all I know is they're suggestible,

01:27:36 ◼   ► right?

01:27:37 ◼   ► Like they can be kind of swayed.

01:27:40 ◼   ► So like my thinking is, are they being swayed by Khan still, or is now like, are they looking

01:27:46 ◼   ► at Kirk and doing whatever he wants him to do? Like it's really hard to, at this point,

01:27:52 ◼   ► to place, like who are they working for? Like were they just left there, which they could

01:27:56 ◼   ► have conceivably just been left there because they were useless now?

01:27:58 ◼   ► Right. Chekhov says we beat them, you know, the captain was strong, and the implication

01:28:03 ◼   ► is that they just left him behind. Khan left him behind because they weren't of any use

01:28:06 ◼   ► to them anymore.

01:28:08 ◼   ► then when they then beam down to the site where the Genesis stuff is being

01:28:13 ◼   ► held underground on a planet somewhere, Tarell and Chekov turn on them but then

01:28:19 ◼   ► Tarell kills himself. Right, cleansing fire, you know, kill him and he turns the

01:28:24 ◼   ► he he turns the phaser on himself and then pulls the trigger. And then Chekov's

01:28:29 ◼   ► bug jumps out of his ear for fun. Yeah, "Ah!" He screams and is dead because

01:28:34 ◼   ► he's a regular character and we don't want him to die. So he just lays down.

01:28:39 ◼   ► And Khan knew where they were because Tarell or Chekov were wearing this bracelet. It wasn't

01:28:46 ◼   ► completely clear what happened previously, like how Khan knew. Like I didn't get that.

01:28:51 ◼   ► I was like, how does he know? Like he went to a scene and it was like he was in the next

01:28:56 ◼   ► room or something. It was very confusing. But then later I worked it out.

01:29:00 ◼   ► Yeah, because Tarell says, "Your Excellency, have you been listening?"

01:29:03 ◼   ► Yeah.

01:29:04 ◼   ► "Yes, I have been listening."

01:29:06 ◼   ► - So I think they could have done this part

01:29:08 ◼   ► without the scene where they show Khan listening,

01:29:10 ◼   ► because that actually made it more confusing for me,

01:29:13 ◼   ► because I couldn't work out how he was hearing them.

01:29:15 ◼   ► And then we thought, you know, it's obvious then

01:29:17 ◼   ► that there's like some kind of bracelet,

01:29:19 ◼   ► which Kirk then screams Khan, twice in two, right?

01:29:23 ◼   ► - Yeah, so they're doing their like back and forth

01:29:26 ◼   ► with each other, which one of the things,

01:29:27 ◼   ► I don't know if you realize this, if you noticed this,

01:29:29 ◼   ► but you know, Kirk and Khan

01:29:31 ◼   ► are never in the same physical space.

01:29:34 ◼   ► the actors were never together in this movie. They're on screen with each other and they're

01:29:40 ◼   ► over the bracelet but they're never in the same room together. At any point, Malteban

01:29:44 ◼   ► and Shatner are never in the same room together. How interesting. Because I felt like they

01:29:47 ◼   ► were all the time. I know, right? And the back and forth here is really great too because

01:29:51 ◼   ► this is their, they're both trying to out bluster one another. But Khan takes, so Khan

01:30:01 ◼   ► takes the Genesis device. So Khan wins this round, because that was, that basically Kirk

01:30:06 ◼   ► just did Khan's job for him. Khan couldn't figure it out, but Kirk figured out where

01:30:11 ◼   ► it was, led them right to it, and now they've stolen the ultimate weapon. And what's worse,

01:30:17 ◼   ► they've stranded Kirk and his people in the middle of this asteroid, in this cave in the

01:30:22 ◼   ► middle of this asteroid. So Khan, and Khan says, "I could kill you, but I'm not gonna

01:30:26 ◼   ► bother, I'm gonna abandon you like you abandoned me." And he takes off.

01:30:30 ◼   ► We then find out that Kirk has a son. Yes, the blonde guy is David Marcus, and that's

01:30:35 ◼   ► the back history with Carol, is that they had a son and he stayed away, and David doesn't even

01:30:44 ◼   ► know that he's his son. And they had used this planet to use Genesis Underground, and then they

01:30:50 ◼   ► have this incredible looking facility where we believe that they're going to be stranded to for

01:30:55 ◼   ► a while, right? They go out and they eat in this place. And it is then that Kirk realizes,

01:31:01 ◼   ► kind of, he lets us know that he was bluffing about a previous communication between him

01:31:06 ◼   ► and Spock, where Spock told him it would take two days before they could be re-powered.

01:31:10 ◼   ► But Kirk and Spock, because they know each other so well, they knew that there was bluffing

01:31:15 ◼   ► going on in case they were being listened to, which they were. And two days actually

01:31:19 ◼   ► just meant two hours and they tricked Khan. So Khan thinks that they're stranded.

01:31:24 ◼   ► is right after he reveals to Savik about what he did in the Kobayashi Maru test at the beginning

01:31:29 ◼   ► of the movie. This came up. It's like, you know, she's like, there's no way to win.

01:31:33 ◼   ► And he gives the usual line of, well, you got to deal with death. And then here they're

01:31:37 ◼   ► eating like apples sitting in the cave on a cliff of this cave. And she says, I would

01:31:43 ◼   ► like to know what you did. And he's, and I think it's Dr. McCoy is like, you're looking

01:31:47 ◼   ► at the only kid who beat the no win scenario. And he says, yeah, I reprogrammed the test.

01:31:53 ◼   ► cheated, changed the conditions of the test so that I could win. I got a commendation

01:31:57 ◼   ► for original thinking and she's kind of aghast. And you see that play out in the J.J. Abrams

01:32:02 ◼   ► 2009 Star Trek. You get to see him reprogram the simulator and all of that, much to Spock's

01:32:09 ◼   ► consternation in that movie, but with Bones' help, which is kind of a funny little bit.

01:32:14 ◼   ► And he's eating an apple in Star Trek 2009 when that all goes on, which is a callback

01:32:19 ◼   ► to them sitting here eating apples in the cave. And then immediately, like out of nowhere,

01:32:24 ◼   ► after he said, "See how clever I am, I reprogrammed the test," and they're like, "Oh, well, I

01:32:27 ◼   ► don't know if I can trust you," he just pops out the communicator and is like, "Kirk to

01:32:31 ◼   ► Spock, you ready?" And as an audience member, I was like, "What?"

01:32:34 ◼   ► Yeah, I couldn't work out what happened. This is Captain Kirk's magic trick. He's

01:32:39 ◼   ► like, he's way ahead of you. He's figured it all out, and you're just waiting for

01:32:42 ◼   ► him to figure it out. It's, yeah. I love that scene because he explains, like, "I

01:32:47 ◼   ► I don't ever accept that it's a no-win situation, and I'm not going to do it now either.

01:32:53 ◼   ► And let me demonstrate.

01:32:54 ◼   ► Spock's waiting for me.

01:32:55 ◼   ► Let's get back up to the ship."

01:32:57 ◼   ► I love that scene.

01:32:58 ◼   ► So they then kind of trick Khan a little bit.

01:33:01 ◼   ► So they're going into this nebula, and this nebula would mean that none of the systems

01:33:07 ◼   ► could be used, right?

01:33:08 ◼   ► None of the tracking systems.

01:33:10 ◼   ► All the shields.

01:33:11 ◼   ► Yeah, the idea is that the Enterprise is really crippled more than the Verlinde is, but if

01:33:16 ◼   ► they go into the nebula, the odds will be even because nobody can use their shields

01:33:21 ◼   ► and nobody can see particularly well. And so it'll be a fairer battle because they

01:33:26 ◼   ► can't beat them in clear combat, but they could beat them in this hazy sort of submarine

01:33:31 ◼   ► warfare kind of thing. And Khan's second in command, played by Judson Scott, Joachim,

01:33:40 ◼   ► knows this, right? And he's like, "I'm slowing down." And that's kind of a fun

01:33:45 ◼   ► scene where Spock is like, "Well, they're slowing down," and Kirk says, "Put me on with

01:33:49 ◼   ► Khan," and he gives him a little, he goes, he just goads him, it's like, "Khan, look,

01:33:53 ◼   ► I'm still alive, haha, I beat you." So here's another thing, he wants to set him up to murder

01:33:58 ◼   ► him. Well, but they're trying to beat him, I mean, this is the idea, is I gotta get you

01:34:03 ◼   ► to chase me in here, because that's the only way we're gonna be able to escape. But here's

01:34:07 ◼   ► the other, here's the thing about that, it's not just Khan, though, is it? Sure. On that

01:34:13 ◼   ► Well, no, they say that they left the whole crew behind on SETI Alpha 5, so it's just

01:34:18 ◼   ► Khan and his people. Khan and his other genetically engineered people, the 72 super people from

01:34:25 ◼   ► 1996, back in the old days of 1996 when we left on spaceships. And so anyway, they floor

01:34:35 ◼   ► it at that point. Khan's like, "No, chase him. We gotta go get him," because Khan

01:34:39 ◼   ► Khan is obsessed with Kirk. He has to kill Kirk. And Kirk knows this and uses it against

01:34:43 ◼   ► him. No! Ooh!

01:34:47 ◼   ► - Khan's downfall is his lust for revenge. - Yeah, no, this is the, I mean, that's the

01:34:54 ◼   ► Moby Dick reference that gets made a couple of times too, because that's a book about

01:34:57 ◼   ► a sailor who is obsessed, and his obsession is his downfall, and that's what they're going

01:35:04 ◼   ► for here, is Khan is out for the wrath of Khan. It was originally called The Vengeance

01:35:07 ◼   ► of Khan and he's out for revenge and the revenge is his downfall. At one point, Joachim

01:35:13 ◼   ► says to him, "We can go anywhere we want. We've got a spaceship." And Khan's like,

01:35:19 ◼   ► "No, I must kill Kirk."

01:35:20 ◼   ► - And also they have the most powerful weapon available.

01:35:23 ◼   ► - Yeah, they can go anywhere and do anything and he is not willing to do that because he

01:35:29 ◼   ► is out for vengeance.

01:35:34 ◼   ► And so they enter the nebula, they have a fight, and the Enterprise ends up taking out

01:35:38 ◼   ► most of Khan's crew, which is again one of these other morally strange parts to me.

01:35:42 ◼   ► But like, I don't know, there's just like the amount of people that we were watching

01:35:46 ◼   ► being destroyed, just like, "Killed them all, man!"

01:35:48 ◼   ► Like, okay!

01:35:49 ◼   ► Yeah, well, they're Khan's people, I think that's, I think the idea is that they're,

01:35:53 ◼   ► you know, you're in a space battle with another ship, that's part of the deal.

01:35:58 ◼   ► And in the end, it's not Khan, I mean, it's not, Kirk kills some of the people on the

01:36:02 ◼   ► the ship but they're like gonna they ask them to surrender and and and cons like

01:36:06 ◼   ► no I'm blowing everything up now I mean he doesn't care either about whatever's

01:36:11 ◼   ► left of his crew he's gonna blow up his his ship and take Kirk with him I mean

01:36:15 ◼   ► he doesn't care about Kurt's career but Kirk's man to be the good guy yeah no

01:36:19 ◼   ► they're the enemy right yeah yeah I know I know I couldn't tell here if the

01:36:27 ◼   ► the Nebula scenes were tense or unnecessarily slow paced. There was lots of back and forth

01:36:34 ◼   ► of like faces and it just, I didn't really feel the tension, it just felt like it was

01:36:39 ◼   ► taking too long. I think that may be a difference between 1982

01:36:43 ◼   ► and 2016. That's a good point, yep.

01:36:45 ◼   ► I think maybe that it would be faster paced now. The idea there is they're trying to build

01:36:49 ◼   ► tension, they want it to be like a submarine battle, something like Hunt for Red October,

01:36:54 ◼   ► idea that they're moving very slowly. The way that they beat Khan in the battle is that

01:36:59 ◼   ► Khan is thinking in terms of going left and right, and they go up and down. He's thinking

01:37:05 ◼   ► two-dimensionally, which you would do in space if you were somebody who's used to being

01:37:09 ◼   ► like from a planet, and the spacemen of the 23rd century are capable of flying their spaceship

01:37:15 ◼   ► up and down, too. And they use that to beat him. But yeah, I think that the pacing is

01:37:21 ◼   ► is not what you would do today.

01:37:27 ◼   ► Because then also Khan very slowly with his last ounce of strength activates the Genesis

01:37:31 ◼   ► weapon.

01:37:32 ◼   ► Well he has a speech to give, Myke.

01:37:36 ◼   ► Most of it he's not even talking.

01:37:38 ◼   ► He's just turning a dial and then pressing a button and turning a dial and press...

01:37:41 ◼   ► It's weight takes way too long.

01:37:43 ◼   ► That part takes way too long.

01:37:46 ◼   ► And then Spock sacrifices himself, right? Because basically they need the ship's power

01:37:54 ◼   ► core or whatever to be repaired, but nobody can go and repair it because it's horrifically

01:37:59 ◼   ► radioactive.

01:38:00 ◼   ► Right.

01:38:01 ◼   ► And if this is done, then they can go into, what do they call it? Warp speed?

01:38:06 ◼   ► Warp speed and escape. The only way they can escape, they're going full impulse. Sulu's

01:38:11 ◼   ► got full impulse, but they're not going to make it. In fact, I think Sulu says in one

01:38:15 ◼   ► of the lines that I like, we're not going to make it are we? And, uh,

01:38:19 ◼   ► and Spock has that moment where he's sitting in the chair and he's like, okay,

01:38:22 ◼   ► I gotta,

01:38:23 ◼   ► I gotta do this because they got to get the warp drive back on line or

01:38:26 ◼   ► everybody's going to die. And so he goes into the radioactive chamber,

01:38:29 ◼   ► Scotty tries to Scott stop him. Uh, uh, bones tries to stop him.

01:38:34 ◼   ► He gives bones the neck pinch and then puts his fingers on his head and says,

01:38:38 ◼   ► remember, Hmm, I wonder what that's setting up. And, uh,

01:38:42 ◼   ► that's setting up the next movie. And he goes in, he sacrifices himself to save the ship.

01:38:48 ◼   ► He bathes in the radiation, gets the warp drive back online, they zip away, yay! Thereby

01:38:54 ◼   ► saving everybody, and the Genesis torpedo blows up and kills Khan and his crew and the

01:39:01 ◼   ► spaceships and all of that. But not the Enterprise.

01:39:04 ◼   ► Not before Khan says, "For hate's sake, I spit my last breath at thee." Bit melodramatic.

01:39:10 ◼   ► I think that's Moby Dick again.

01:39:12 ◼   ► Oh really?

01:39:14 ◼   ► That's too much.

01:39:15 ◼   ► If that's a direct quote, that's too much.

01:39:18 ◼   ► That's too on the nose.

01:39:19 ◼   ► There's a lot of Moby Dick in this.

01:39:21 ◼   ► In Star Trek 6 there's a lot of Shakespeare.

01:39:23 ◼   ► I think that's a yes.

01:39:26 ◼   ► Spock is in bad shape and he repeats something that he says earlier about the needs of the

01:39:31 ◼   ► many and Kirk ends it by saying outweigh the needs of the few or the one or whatever it

01:39:37 ◼   ► heroes that they mentioned as they kind of change it a little bit. Then they do the Vulcan

01:39:41 ◼   ► salute thing through the glass, live long and prosper, Spock dies. I didn't expect him

01:39:47 ◼   ► to remain dead dead, as I mentioned, like I was expecting hand out of casket or something.

01:39:52 ◼   ► But then there's the father and son moment that we referenced with the, you know, you've

01:39:57 ◼   ► never seen death and then it's like, I love you, dad, I love you, son, that kind of thing.

01:40:03 ◼   ► then there's the whole point at the end was like I feel young and life and blah blah blah

01:40:08 ◼   ► blah.

01:40:09 ◼   ► I think totally, totally questionable moment. I feel like this movie is coming. I mean the

01:40:11 ◼   ► whole idea is that Kirk's taking a journey and he needs to embrace, you know, accept

01:40:16 ◼   ► his mortality and embrace that he needs to do what he, what he can with his life. And

01:40:23 ◼   ► because it's going to end and he's going to get old and die and he just needs to do

01:40:27 ◼   ► it. It does seem awfully sunny after all these people have died and including all the scientists

01:40:33 ◼   ► and all of the people on Khan's ship and a bunch of people on the Enterprise and Spock

01:40:37 ◼   ► has died and then in the end Kirk's there with the mother of his son wearing his jacket

01:40:42 ◼   ► next to him and he's like "Yeah, I'm feeling pretty good right now." I was like "I don't

01:40:46 ◼   ► know about that." That's a little weird. That's a weird moment.

01:40:49 ◼   ► So I thought this movie was going to be slow and kind of dumb and was only going to be

01:40:57 ◼   ► interesting to people that liked Star Trek. What is Jason making me watch?

01:41:00 ◼   ► This is how I felt, I was like this is going to be a disaster for me. But I felt like it

01:41:06 ◼   ► moved super fast, like it was over in a flash. I was very surprised about that. And it had

01:41:12 ◼   ► a lot more thought and moral questioning in it than I expected. And they didn't lean too

01:41:19 ◼   ► heavily on the previous knowledge of the viewer. And I've got to say I enjoyed it. I did. I

01:41:29 ◼   ► enjoyed it. This is not going to make my top five of Myke at the Movies. No, no, no, no,

01:41:34 ◼   ► no. But I, I enjoyed it vastly more than I thought I was going to. I thought this was

01:41:41 ◼   ► going to be one of the rare, I think maybe the only Myke at the Movies suggestion that

01:41:45 ◼   ► I didn't like. I don't think there's been one that I didn't like before. From you anyway,

01:41:50 ◼   ► I've disliked movies that Casey has shown me. Casey, yeah, sorry Casey. But of the upgrade

01:41:55 ◼   ► Myke at the movies I have never disliked a movie and you have kept that crown

01:41:59 ◼   ► going because I did I enjoyed it I and and I think maybe maybe of all of the

01:42:04 ◼   ► movies that I've seen I enjoyed it more than I thought I would the most like the

01:42:09 ◼   ► rest of them there have been elements that I thought would would work or I

01:42:15 ◼   ► would like and then some of them surprised me more than than expected

01:42:18 ◼   ► like say anything continues to be a massive surprise to me and will probably

01:42:22 ◼   ► probably always be the most surprising, just how much I adored that movie. And some of

01:42:29 ◼   ► them disappointed me a little bit, like Real Genius disappointed me a little bit in areas

01:42:32 ◼   ► because there was a lot of questionable humor in that which I didn't like.

01:42:36 ◼   ► Um, indeed. But this movie only surprised me positively,

01:42:40 ◼   ► even if I thought some things were uncomfortable. Like, I still dislike the kind of feeling

01:42:48 ◼   ► of Kirk's bad actions and that there's no consequences for him. Literally none.

01:42:54 ◼   ► I guess the consequences are that he, well I mean Spock dies.

01:42:59 ◼   ► Then Spock comes back to life again. So there are no consequences for Kirk's actions even

01:43:05 ◼   ► when they are bad and/or questionable. And that I don't like. And I don't know why I

01:43:12 ◼   ► felt this so strongly in this movie when there are so many movies like it. But I think it

01:43:17 ◼   ► was purely because of the way that Khan is introduced as someone who is done wrong before

01:43:23 ◼   ► you find out what he did.

01:43:24 ◼   ► Yeah, he has a legitimate grievance against Kirk. I think he does.

01:43:30 ◼   ► A great suggestion and a movie worthy to take the episode 100 crown, so thank you Jason.

01:43:36 ◼   ► I'm glad you liked it. I think it's a good movie and there are good and bad Star Trek

01:43:43 ◼   ► movies, but Star Trek II is a good movie. It has some of the best space battle scenes

01:43:49 ◼   ► I think in any movie, even though the effects are obviously dated. I think they're actually

01:43:54 ◼   ► pretty darn good for 1982.

01:43:56 ◼   ► The effects held up surprisingly well. I thought that this was some kind of special edition

01:44:01 ◼   ► or something that I was watching.

01:44:02 ◼   ► No, the phaser blasts on the hull, they get the big scorch marks and people are screaming

01:44:09 ◼   ► and jumping around and all of that. And it all is kind of logical and how do you resolve

01:44:13 ◼   ► it. And unexpected places they go down deeper. You know, they go to the space station, nobody's

01:44:19 ◼   ► there except dead bodies, and then go deeper into the planet. And then you get the back

01:44:22 ◼   ► and forth between Shatner and Montalban, which is so great. And it is amazing that they never

01:44:26 ◼   ► actually share space. It's just on one end of a communicator or other. But their back

01:44:32 ◼   ► and forth is great and fittingly kind of, you know, they're both trying to outdo each

01:44:36 ◼   ► other and go even further over the top with their back and forth. And it's great. I,

01:44:40 ◼   ► I like it a lot and I like the end. The end is very sad. I, when I saw this in the movie

01:44:45 ◼   ► theater as a kid, I just sobbed when Spock died. It was so sad. Um, I think looking back

01:44:50 ◼   ► on it now, of course, then they just bring him back and he's in all the other movies.

01:44:54 ◼   ► Um, and, and that devalues the end of this a little bit. It would have been more sad,

01:45:00 ◼   ► you know, obviously if he had actually stayed dead, but that didn't happen and they were

01:45:04 ◼   ► already, as you pointed out quite rightly, laying the groundwork for him to come back

01:45:07 ◼   ► because the way the story goes is Leonard Nimoy said, "I'd be in Star Trek II if you

01:45:11 ◼   ► killed me." And they're like, "All right, we'll do that." And then by the end of the

01:45:16 ◼   ► shoot he's like, "Hey," because the Star Trek motion picture wasn't very good and I think

01:45:20 ◼   ► people didn't really have a good time on it. By the end of the movie he's like, "Hey, this

01:45:23 ◼   ► is pretty good. I'd do more." And they're like, "Okay." So they left themselves some

01:45:30 ◼   ► outs so they could bring them back. And they did.

01:45:33 ◼   ► Which is why that whole line, all those lines are there at the end.

01:45:36 ◼   ► Yeah, and they'll remember putting the hand on Dr. McCoy, that's in there, and then they

01:45:44 ◼   ► show the casket lovingly panning over the casket. No hand emerges, but that is the implication,

01:45:49 ◼   ► right? It didn't make sense to me why the caskets

01:45:52 ◼   ► remain intact on these planets. Exactly! Exactly.

01:45:56 ◼   ► Why are they made to do that? Like, there'd just be dead bodies just strewn all over these

01:46:01 ◼   ► planets.

01:46:02 ◼   ► I know, I think they figured, well I think they usually like fire them into the sun or

01:46:05 ◼   ► something, but in this case they fired it into the Genesis planet, but of course the

01:46:09 ◼   ► Genesis planet is like nothing we've seen before, so. But that's another movie.

01:46:13 ◼   ► The way I write Converse is that, because maybe I didn't pay enough attention, is

01:46:16 ◼   ► that they put him in an escape pod, not a coffin.

01:46:19 ◼   ► Oh, it's a torpedo. It's a photon torpedo.

01:46:22 ◼   ► Right, but then it makes no frickin' sense why it stayed in peace, because surely a torpedo

01:46:26 ◼   ► should explode? Well, they took the explosives out and put a Vulcan in it instead. Yeah,

01:46:31 ◼   ► but still! I don't know. How strong should the structures be? Yeah, yeah. Okay, it makes

01:46:37 ◼   ► no sense to me why that stayed intact. It should have broken into pieces when it hit

01:46:42 ◼   ► the Earth. It's magic. Whatever it is. It's the same reason, Myke, it's the same reason

01:46:45 ◼   ► that Chekhov doesn't die. It would be inconvenient. I'm glad you like it. I'm glad you like it.

01:46:54 ◼   ► I like it too and I'm glad you do. It's a fun movie with some great performances and

01:46:59 ◼   ► a good script. And in fact, that's one of the things that I think is not a bad influence,

01:47:03 ◼   ► but a good influence on future Star Trek is the writer and director of this has been involved

01:47:12 ◼   ► with other Star Treks. He actually wrote Star Trek and directed Star Trek 6, Nicholas Meyer,

01:47:19 ◼   ► and was involved in the Star Trek movies for quite a while. And my understanding is he

01:47:27 ◼   ► is actually one of the consulting producers and writers on the new Star Trek series that's

01:47:32 ◼   ► coming out in January. So they're kind of honoring him. The TV show. Yeah. For his work.

01:47:39 ◼   ► But he injected, look, Star Trek as a movie franchise would not exist if this had been

01:47:43 ◼   ► a bad movie. The only reason that there were more Star Trek movies is that Star Trek II

01:47:48 ◼   ► was really good because it was on a 16 million dollar budget or whatever it was, small budget,

01:47:53 ◼   ► and it was not really given a lot of support and it was a good movie and that's the only

01:48:00 ◼   ► reason Star Trek continued after that. Only reason.

01:48:03 ◼   ► If you'd like to find our show notes for this week head on over to relay.fm/upgrades/100

01:48:09 ◼   ► and if you want to find Jason online he's @jasonl on twitter he's at 6colors.com I am

01:48:14 ◼   ► him.

01:48:41 ◼   ► [MUSIC PLAYING]

01:48:44 ◼   ► [MUSIC PLAYING]

01:48:47 ◼   ► [ Silence ]