00:00:45 ◼ ► you know I loved Lost. I loved the whole thing. If you didn't like how it ended, wouldn't
00:00:49 ◼ ► that make it the perfect show to watch this way? So like if you ever did watch it again,
00:00:53 ◼ ► you wouldn't remember how badly it ended? I also feel like one of the big problems with
00:01:00 ◼ ► bit before its time, and because it was network TV, there were long gaps between episodes.
00:01:07 ◼ ► So you get like eight episodes and then they'd be off for six weeks and then you get four
00:01:21 ◼ ► my own pace over the course of a few weeks instead of having to stretch it out over years
00:01:25 ◼ ► with huge gaps in between seasons. Because I think the show plays a lot better when you're
00:01:32 ◼ ► not losing narrative momentum every six episodes as they stop for a rerun break. So I have
00:01:39 ◼ ► been meaning to do a Lost rewatch and I will at some point, but in the meantime I think
00:01:44 ◼ ► that's gonna be my answer. It's not my favorite show, although it probably is in my top five
00:01:48 ◼ ► of all time, but I think it would be the one that would benefit the most. And for movies
00:01:57 ◼ ► not sure there's a movie that I would want to... I feel like the going for the ride for
00:02:07 ◼ ► I think that for this question TV shows are better than movies, unless it's like a movie
00:02:19 ◼ ► Yeah, that would take a long time to watch all the Marvel movies. People do that though,
00:02:24 ◼ ► do you see that? Like I saw people doing that, they do like a three or four day basically
00:02:29 ◼ ► live in the cinema. I couldn't imagine watching movies that way. You could lose your mind.
00:02:35 ◼ ► Thank you to Number One Upgrading Casey for sending in this Snell Talk question. If you
00:02:39 ◼ ► want to have a question to help open a future episode of Upgrade just send out a tweet with
00:02:56 ◼ ► Upgradeyourwardrobe.com, that is upgradeyourwardrobe.com, there's also links in our show notes. Look
00:03:06 ◼ ► on the way and we thought to ourselves, you know, we want to make sure that the Upgradients
00:03:12 ◼ ► are ready for the summer, people are headed to the beach. Luckily for all of us, you don't
00:03:23 ◼ ► have a whole range of items available including a Dongletown Surf Club tea and tank top so
00:03:29 ◼ ► you're ready for the beach, a Dongletown Surf Club tote bag and quite possibly, in my opinion,
00:03:35 ◼ ► the greatest podcast merchandise ever created, the Dongletown. Yes, we've made a beach towel.
00:03:48 ◼ ► t-shirt is back in stock in the Navy variation and this is our pre-WWDC get ready for the
00:04:02 ◼ ► now. It's available till May 13th. It should arrive before WWDC if you're in the US. That's
00:04:07 ◼ ► why we're doing it right now. That's why ATP are doing theirs right now also. So if you
00:04:16 ◼ ► shipping? We, I will say, I love, we had such great response to the original Dongletown
00:04:24 ◼ ► tea. This is my favorite of the two design-wise. I think this is perfect. This has a couple
00:04:41 ◼ ► noticed otherwise. And I want to just mention about the towel. So it's an actual beach towel,
00:04:52 ◼ ► why I love working with Cotton Bureau because Jason said to me, wouldn't it be nice if we
00:04:56 ◼ ► did a towel? And I said, Jason, yes, it definitely would be. So I contacted our friends at Cotton
00:05:07 ◼ ► I appreciate so much when I come up with these weird and wonderful things where they're like,
00:05:15 ◼ ► they find a way to do it. So we have a, like, I'm really, really excited about this merchandise
00:05:20 ◼ ► this year because I love the design in general, but I am very excited about tote bags and
00:05:26 ◼ ► beach towels. Like that is just like a fantastic, like, isn't it great? You know, like maybe,
00:05:40 ◼ ► I had told you that I got stopped somewhere. I was actually on a walk with my dog and somebody
00:05:47 ◼ ► actually asked me where dongle town was. Interesting. And I said, okay, how am I going to respond
00:05:55 ◼ ► here? And I said, I let him in on it. I said, it's kind of a joke about how, you know, if
00:06:09 ◼ ► away. You should have just said it's in all of our minds and in the bottom of our backpacks.
00:06:16 ◼ ► That's where dongle town is. It's everywhere. Dongle town is all around us. But being in
00:06:19 ◼ ► California, people are like, oh, dongle town, California, where is that? And the answer
00:06:32 ◼ ► said, but it turns out right at the very top of the, of the page, there's a little toggle
00:06:42 ◼ ► the tank top, but there it is. It's available for you. I'm going to buy the tank top. I
00:06:51 ◼ ► Awesome. I am. I'm glad to have it. And for those who are wondering about more traditional
00:06:56 ◼ ► upgrade merch of logos and hoodies and things like that, that's more of our fall collection.
00:07:12 ◼ ► want to get those too. But, uh, upgrade your wardrobe.com. Get ready for the summer. It's
00:07:27 ◼ ► not going to be talking about it on this show as we would usually do. There's going to be
00:07:30 ◼ ► no mic in the movies about it because we're both going to be discussing it on the incomparable
00:07:33 ◼ ► this week. So Jason has finally allowed me to be on the episode of the incomparable and
00:07:45 ◼ ► about and release that episode next Saturday and then there's a second panel of the incomparable
00:07:50 ◼ ► because everybody wanted to talk about it and that'll probably release Sunday. So it's a
00:07:53 ◼ ► double feature, but you and I will be on that episode on a, on Saturday so people can keep
00:07:59 ◼ ► their eyes on the incomparable. I wonder what the total runtime of those two episodes will
00:08:03 ◼ ► look like compared to the total runtime of Endgame. Well, I mean, that's a good question.
00:08:09 ◼ ► I think, I think if you put them both together, I think it would be great if you put those
00:08:13 ◼ ► two episodes together, it was the runtime of Endgame. I fear it will be more than that.
00:08:17 ◼ ► Yeah, I reckon it will be more than that too. I have a lot to say. I don't know if I'm going
00:08:37 ◼ ► know, podcasting about a movie you see once so much of what I do is a movie that I watched
00:08:44 ◼ ► a very different experience when you can only watch it once and you can't take notes, which
00:08:52 ◼ ► it sometime this week if I get a, if I get a chance. You know, I realized Marvel movies
00:08:57 ◼ ► have occupied a third of my life. Oh yeah. Isn't that wild? That's true. Isn't that wild?
00:09:02 ◼ ► Yeah. All right. So you can look out for that. Well, that's it. They're never making any
00:09:06 ◼ ► more Marvel movies now. That was it. The end. That was what it meant. Yep. Spoilers. That
00:09:11 ◼ ► was it. That's what we said at the end. Disney, yes. Disney stock went down on the revelation
00:09:15 ◼ ► at the end of Avengers Endgame that Marvel comics is shutting down. Strange. It's a shame
00:09:20 ◼ ► they made a billion dollars this weekend. They should probably keep going, but oh well.
00:09:28 ◼ ► that's it for Marvel now. See you kids. That's it. Go home. Very strange. He took off his
00:09:31 ◼ ► mask and he just dropped his shield and walked off and said, said, uh, later losers, no more
00:09:38 ◼ ► superheroes. Go find your Batman. If you love him so much. It was really weird. Yeah. Well,
00:09:44 ◼ ► I thought the moment where Captain America endorsed Batman was perhaps the strangest part
00:09:48 ◼ ► of that. He's like, you know, Batman's pretty great. Go talk to Batman. Bye. Smell you later.
00:09:53 ◼ ► Smell you later. He was out of there. Yep. It would have been a new catchphrase if only
00:10:00 ◼ ► more Marvel movies. All right, let's do some upstream. Got a couple of headlines in streaming
00:10:05 ◼ ► media. Uh, Comcast, believe it or not, as if it couldn't have been predicted is in talks
00:10:10 ◼ ► to sell Hulu to Disney. Uh, according to CNBC sources, Comcast is currently weighing up
00:10:16 ◼ ► its options over what to do with its 30% stake in the streaming service. One of those options
00:10:21 ◼ ► is indeed to sell it to Disney and Comcast and Disney are talking about it. Uh, I mean,
00:10:41 ◼ ► unclear whether there was active conversations about the future of Hulu and the ownership
00:10:55 ◼ ► Comcast has not decided what it wants to do. And it, and they went into, you know, it's
00:11:05 ◼ ► they could keep their stake and be a part of something and sort of get a peek into Disney
00:11:10 ◼ ► strategy, their competitor, but at the same time, they would also be involved with their
00:11:19 ◼ ► weighing sort of strategically and maybe the game here is also like basically what's it
00:11:23 ◼ ► worth it to you? What's it worth it to us? What's it worth it to you? It's a complicated,
00:11:27 ◼ ► uh, thing and it could go either way. I think the cleanest thing would be for Comcast to
00:11:31 ◼ ► get some cash and walk away and use that cash to build their own streaming service rather
00:11:37 ◼ ► than a kind of continuing to partner with Hulu. But what they did say, and I think this
00:11:41 ◼ ► is an important point is Hulu has, you know, it's not just a place where you come for original
00:11:47 ◼ ► streaming. It is the TV industry's, um, playback for broadcast TV in the U S and Comcast did
00:12:00 ◼ ► still have got to think that in the long run, um, they're going to want to put all of their
00:12:10 ◼ ► then it's a direct customer relationship with their content. And I think it's actually a
00:12:14 ◼ ► pretty great thing having bought CBS all access for star Trek. I have, uh, I have watched
00:12:23 ◼ ► some CBS shows that I would not have thought to watch or would have forgotten to record
00:12:28 ◼ ► on my DVR. But the way that service works, you get access to all their shows. The moment
00:12:33 ◼ ► that they air, um, they're on, it's like HBO go the moment that the CBS shows air they're
00:12:38 ◼ ► on streaming and I'm on the ad free tier. So it's basically all the CBS shows are available
00:12:44 ◼ ► for me, ad free, no commercials by paying for this. And there's something it's actually,
00:12:49 ◼ ► that's not bad. Like the combination of all the network shows, the w when I want to watch
00:12:53 ◼ ► them and all their originals in one package, I look at CBS all access, which is very narrow.
00:12:59 ◼ ► And I think this is a model like this is what Disney should take all of ABC and put it on
00:13:09 ◼ ► That's like, that's how you should do it. That it actually makes a lot of sense. I think
00:13:18 ◼ ► you're streaming, so you're obviously not watching it. So you get these shows here instead.
00:13:31 ◼ ► their streaming service this fall. CEO Randall Stevenson has said that they will be giving
00:13:36 ◼ ► a detailed look at the platform and its content in either September or October. Um, they on
00:13:41 ◼ ► the line that HBO will be at the center of the platform. And this is a quote, the Disney
00:13:46 ◼ ► announcement gave us nothing but more optimism about what we'll be able to bring to market.
00:13:51 ◼ ► Um, that considering the quotes that surround all of this does not sound as snarky as you
00:13:57 ◼ ► could imagine it sounding. Um, it actually was more of like a Disney have a really good
00:14:07 ◼ ► can do it too. Not so much of like, Oh, saw what they did. You want to see what we got?
00:14:12 ◼ ► It was, I think it was more, and I think rightly so that Warner media should be encouraged
00:14:22 ◼ ► to offer and it's not necessarily what people think of them as having, right? Like I think
00:14:32 ◼ ► media. Um, you know, like I think that people just think of HBO as HBO and like game of
00:14:38 ◼ ► thrones is owned by the HBO company, but it turns out it's also owned by the wizard company
00:14:48 ◼ ► that was the, that that's, we'll see exactly what they mean by that, but like using HBO
00:14:52 ◼ ► and kind of inflating it and saying, you know, HBO is going to be the start of this and maybe
00:15:00 ◼ ► view like the Disney presentation where they've got their brand tiles of like Disney and Marvel
00:15:04 ◼ ► and all that, like Warner media doing something like that, where they've got, they've got
00:15:08 ◼ ► an HBO stream and they've got a DC superhero stream and they've got some other, you know,
00:15:12 ◼ ► Harry Potter stream or whatever it is, however they want to put that together, you gotta
00:15:16 ◼ ► take advantage of your brands and your intellectual property. And the most powerful part of the
00:15:28 ◼ ► it. So they are leaning into that, which is interesting. Of course, a lot of people have
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00:18:38 ◼ ► So Jason, you wrote an article on Macworld last week where this quote comes from, which
00:18:49 ◼ ► thoughts occasionally while I sit at my desk working on my iMac Pro. iOS does this better.
00:18:57 ◼ ► Shock horror. Heresy. So what's going on here Jason Snell? You know, finder windows is where
00:19:06 ◼ ► it all started. It started in the finder windows. I want you to know, I'll get into this a little
00:19:22 ◼ ► only imagine this upset quite a lot of people. But you know, and as I'm writing it I'm thinking,
00:19:26 ◼ ► does this come across as one of those things where a columnist says something inflammatory
00:19:30 ◼ ► just to get attention? And the answer is, I kind of don't want your attention. I'm just
00:19:35 ◼ ► writing about this because it actually happened to me. It's literally, that is the story here.
00:19:40 ◼ ► I am working in the finder and I've got windows open and some windows are behind other windows
00:19:49 ◼ ► which I was going to put in to mention how the old finder wouldn't let you do that. And
00:19:52 ◼ ► then John Siracusa sent me a note and said, "Something something spatial finder?" And I
00:19:57 ◼ ► was like, "Yes, I almost went there." And I decided, "No, no, no, no, no. I'm not going
00:20:02 ◼ ► to go back to the past." But I had that moment where I'm like, "Okay, I'm going to open this
00:20:05 ◼ ► window and I'm going to go to this folder and I'm going to make a new finder window and
00:20:08 ◼ ► I'm going to click on this thing in the sidebar and it's going to go to this other folder
00:20:11 ◼ ► somewhere else and I'm going to move the files over and then I need to get this file out
00:20:18 ◼ ► of silly, isn't it?" Like, I get why I need to do that sometimes and I've got workflows
00:20:39 ◼ ► I give it a name. And on the Mac, it's sort of like, you know, some of this is also habit.
00:20:46 ◼ ► Like I could go to BBEdit and press open and use default folder to set like the stories
00:21:01 ◼ ► trained to use the Mac is go to the finder, open a window, navigate to the right folder
00:21:05 ◼ ► and then create a document or open a document that's in there. And it was just a little
00:21:10 ◼ ► moment where I thought why—I wanted to ask myself, because I write about this, I wanted
00:21:23 ◼ ► thinking, I think iOS is the reason. I think this is an example where I—without saying
00:21:37 ◼ ► too much. But I get the idea that maybe something we said earlier about old technology, right,
00:21:49 ◼ ► they invented in 1991. I had that moment where I thought, ah, this is really a fundamental,
00:22:05 ◼ ► finder windows and moving things around. And there are a lot of parts of my job where I
00:22:18 ◼ ► of this is me and it's not the system, some of this is me. And Apple has definitely tried
00:22:21 ◼ ► to push a lot of its apps to be more app-based and not finder-based in terms of how you use
00:22:27 ◼ ► them. That's why Logic and Final Cut store things in packages and, you know, GarageBand
00:22:37 ◼ ► this direction. But I just—I don't know, I had that moment where I thought, oh, I prefer
00:22:56 ◼ ► open the Files app or the Dropbox app or whatever. And it was just—it was a—it was an interesting
00:23:03 ◼ ► kind of like moment of realization that I'm not—something happened where I do not take
00:23:13 ◼ ► the conventions of the Mac for granted in the same way that I used to because I'm using
00:23:18 ◼ ► iOS so much that it's changed the way I think about some of this stuff. Not saying like
00:23:33 ◼ ► I am definitely in the mindset of preferring the app-centric model of files and how you
00:23:43 ◼ ► manage your computer life. Because I think of my work as happening in places. There are
00:23:55 ◼ ► way than considering which document do I need to find in which folder structure to begin
00:24:01 ◼ ► my work right now. I am much more of the idea of going here. And you mentioned that you
00:24:07 ◼ ► reference OneWriter, which is where you write a lot of your stuff on iOS, right? You open
00:24:19 ◼ ► through six different nested folders to get the file that I need to open OneWriter with."
00:24:26 ◼ ► And it's just like a different—and I don't think either of us is saying like one is right
00:24:36 ◼ ► me that you have changed your thinking having used the Mac for longer than me. I did find
00:24:57 ◼ ► As long as him, right? Which is kind of funny. I think me and Casey—actually I've been
00:25:38 ◼ ► for the show. I was on my Mac and I was working on a contract in Pages and I needed to sign
00:26:08 ◼ ► share, I choose PDF. It then gives me an open in dialogue immediately. I just tap on PDF
00:26:14 ◼ ► pen and then I sign it and save it. Like there's none of this middle dance of like, "Where
00:26:19 ◼ ► do you want to save the file?" Right? Like there's none of that. Like it just goes from
00:26:22 ◼ ► app to app and I really like that. And I know that sometimes on iOS, the share extension
00:26:29 ◼ ► stuff can be clunky, but when it works, which for most of the stuff I do works great, like
00:26:34 ◼ ► for that exact type of thing of like taking a document, turn it into a PDF, send it somewhere
00:26:44 ◼ ► idea of me saving it to the desktop and then opening it again somewhere else is a completely
00:26:56 ◼ ► can sort of like open a file directly in from an app and it opens it directly. It's not
00:27:10 ◼ ► of thing that, you know, iOS is coming out of its extreme origin of no files and that's
00:27:16 ◼ ► not, that doesn't work either. I was thinking about like Logic or Final Cut. Logic is a
00:27:22 ◼ ► good example because I added a lot of podcasts in Logic and I also added podcasts in Fair
00:27:26 ◼ ► ight on iOS where they have a package format, which I don't use probably because in part,
00:27:32 ◼ ► it's part of my workflow, but part of it is also that I'm very file oriented because it's
00:27:35 ◼ ► the Finder and it's a Mac and all of that. But like dragging the best way to put a bunch
00:27:41 ◼ ► of files into a Logic project is to open the Logic project and then open the Finder and
00:27:46 ◼ ► then drag the files in one by one to write where you want them to go. And Logic, as far
00:27:50 ◼ ► as I can tell, doesn't even have a batch import feature. It has an import file feature that
00:27:56 ◼ ► lets you pick a single file. So, and that's not better. So the Finder ends up being, and
00:28:04 ◼ ► I think maybe this is the root of it is, interacting with lots of files in lots of complicated
00:28:27 ◼ ► side panel with all my files and I can drag them out one by one. And they're, you know,
00:28:32 ◼ ► basically I airdrop those files to Fairight, not to a holding folder. So then they're in
00:28:37 ◼ ► Fairight's storage area and then I'm dragging them into the project and then they're in
00:28:45 ◼ ► it's different and what, you know, these platforms are colliding. So part of my thought here
00:28:52 ◼ ► is just Apple is trying to push the Mac to be a little more app-centric in terms of documents.
00:28:57 ◼ ► Apple is also trying to push iOS to be a little less app-centric. And I think that's good
00:29:02 ◼ ► because I think there is a place that is more than what the Mac does today, but also more
00:29:13 ◼ ► know how you and I go back and forth about things like to-do lists and project management
00:29:18 ◼ ► apps and all that kind of stuff where my big concern is always the danger of becoming—Merlin
00:29:24 ◼ ► has talked about this a lot—it's the danger of becoming somebody who's a professional
00:29:32 ◼ ► time getting organized and not actually doing the work. And that's always my concern about
00:29:36 ◼ ► putting any time into kind of like organizational stuff is this is time away from the work.
00:29:41 ◼ ► I should just do the work. And you take that to an extreme and it's ridiculous too because
00:29:45 ◼ ► you're completely disorganized and you can't do the work. So you have to find that medium.
00:29:58 ◼ ► the Mac custom folders, custom folder icons and colors and all this stuff was like a huge
00:30:03 ◼ ► part of your identity as a Mac user was like the file system was your identity as a Mac
00:30:35 ◼ ► of like, "Oh, but I need to put these files in these places and I do a lot of filing of
00:30:43 ◼ ► sometimes if you're working on projects with co-workers and things like that, sometimes
00:30:47 ◼ ► A hundred percent. A hundred percent. I wonder if a lot of the fiddling around with files
00:30:52 ◼ ► in the Finder that Mac users do is just because it's the center of your world and not because
00:30:59 ◼ ► you really need to be spending time fiddling around with files and folders. I think it's
00:31:05 ◼ ► You know, the underpinnings of it, the stuff that goes into the file system on the Mac,
00:31:11 ◼ ► by and large, unless you're using something like Dropbox, it's not collaborative. So the
00:31:21 ◼ ► Google Docs are filed because it's not important. Because the system is collaborative at its
00:31:27 ◼ ► core. It's up to me where I find it. It's up to you where you find it. And we just deal
00:31:31 ◼ ► with it that way. It's not about having this nested file system of show notes documents.
00:31:41 ◼ ► know what? I don't need to create a complicated series of mail filters that put every message
00:31:45 ◼ ► that I get in my history in a very particular mailbox for me to retrieve later." Because
00:31:51 ◼ ► technology has reached the point where I can just say, "Hey, where's that email about this?"
00:32:13 ◼ ► aren't my work. Well, making a change in how you work is time spent that isn't your work.
00:32:26 ◼ ► wow, that's a lot of busy work just managing where things go." And yeah, my Google Drive
00:32:32 ◼ ► is not particularly well organized. In fact, the only way that my Google Drive is organized
00:32:37 ◼ ► is mostly about permissions because you can set like a folder to have specific share permissions
00:32:47 ◼ ► like that. But that's a function. That's like, "Oh, Dan and Steven can see the Six Colors
00:33:03 ◼ ► not organizing your files? You've got to organize your files." It's like, I get it, but I don't.
00:33:14 ◼ ► that's it. And if Logic or Final Cut, which actually does do this, did all that work for
00:33:23 ◼ ► I do want to just mention files, the Files app on iOS. It's not better than the Finder.
00:33:31 ◼ ► Let's not get this confused, right? Like when we're saying here that like managing files
00:34:07 ◼ ► Well, the iCloud Drive app was the 1.0, right? And Files is the 2.0. But it's like, it's
00:34:12 ◼ ► not, it's not great. And iOS's approach, I guess what I'm saying is iOS having this document-centric
00:34:28 ◼ ► of files when necessary. Because there are times when you want to say, "I need this file
00:34:31 ◼ ► from my archive. I need this file that I worked on. I want to make sure this file is backed
00:34:35 ◼ ► up. I need to send this to somebody." There are things like that. That's why Files needs
00:34:51 ◼ ► due to a mixture of assumptions based on like how the Mac has always behaved and my history
00:35:14 ◼ ► what happens there? That's a whole other issue because those apps are all being designed
00:35:18 ◼ ► to be app-centric and not document-centric. So you start with the app and then the documents
00:35:31 ◼ ► document you were working on and double-clicked on it. And then it opened an app that opened
00:35:36 ◼ ► the document. That's the exact opposite of how it works on iOS, right? You open the app
00:35:49 ◼ ► for that in a lot of contexts, not all contexts. But anyway, that was my journey, Myke. I feel
00:35:55 ◼ ► like I've stepped outside of my computer history just enough with using iOS in addition to
00:36:02 ◼ ► macOS that it lets me see some of my habits and some of the assumptions of the Mac interface
00:36:22 ◼ ► not into a kind of merged future. And it's going to require a lot of soul searching for
00:36:48 ◼ ► Yeah, it's a lot of design decisions that Apple is going to have to make. And it's going
00:37:00 ◼ ► great job and executes this incredibly well, it's still going to be weird because you've
00:37:08 ◼ ► they're going to have, you know, if, if, uh, Gee Rambo and Steve Tron Smith are to be believed,
00:37:17 ◼ ► separate system folder with the Marsapan stuff in it like there is on Mojave. And that's
00:37:21 ◼ ► not the system folder that the Mac apps use. It's the system folder that the Marsapan apps
00:37:25 ◼ ► use. It's going to be weird even if they execute it well. And then we're going to go through
00:37:29 ◼ ► this process, but it's also kind of fascinating to watch how it might evolve. Um, because
00:37:35 ◼ ► I feel like the decision that Apple made when they kind of made their change about how they
00:37:46 ◼ ► Mac users, because I think Apple pivoted from saying the Mac is a legacy platform that we
00:37:59 ◼ ► going to stay the way it is. And they pivoted from that to, all right, we're going to drag
00:38:04 ◼ ► the Mac into the present. And this kind of stuff is how they're doing that. And if you're
00:38:08 ◼ ► a long time Mac user, you will be uncomfortable. And I will be too, because I am one of you.
00:38:14 ◼ ► I will also be uncomfortable because the Mac is going to have to change in ways and it's
00:38:20 ◼ ► It's going to be really strange to open some applications and be like, you don't look right.
00:38:25 ◼ ► Like that's what it's going to feel like for a while. You know, like Steve Trout and Smith
00:38:40 ◼ ► you are going to move into this, like, because he says like, I am, you know, I'm going to
00:38:51 ◼ ► plan is day one. Like I want to have overcast on the Mac day one. It's going to look so
00:39:09 ◼ ► very disorientating. So that's why it's going to be weird. That is, I think this is going
00:39:30 ◼ ► to you by our friends over at Luna display, the makers of the hardware solution that turns
00:39:44 ◼ ► extra screens can be a fiddly and frustrating experience, but Luna display couldn't be easier.
00:39:50 ◼ ► You just plug a lovely dongle, whether you're in town or you're at the beach, you know,
00:39:54 ◼ ► doesn't matter. You just plug this dongle into your Mac and you're good to go. Everything
00:39:58 ◼ ► works over wifi if you're in regular dongle town. But if you're at the dongle town surf
00:40:06 ◼ ► perfect is that? So you might be traveling, you can just use a cable instead and you still
00:40:15 ◼ ► can have your desktop and your iPad to the side and you can use it just like an external
00:40:19 ◼ ► monitor. It supports external keyboards, touch interactions in the Apple pencil. I will say
00:40:24 ◼ ► you mentioned in your article about touchscreen Macs. Um, and it made me think of the fact
00:40:41 ◼ ► interactions that I want, but it works perfectly. Like I really like being able to use like
00:40:48 ◼ ► my Apple pencil in pixel mater on my Mac over Luna display, which I do quite a lot. The
00:40:53 ◼ ► art, the, uh, the, the, the banner image that I made, like the kind of, of our merchandise
00:40:58 ◼ ► is in our show notes and we tweeted it and stuff. I made that in pixel mater on my Mac,
00:41:03 ◼ ► on my iPad with Luna display and my Apple pencil because pixel mate on the Mac is better
00:41:14 ◼ ► But anyway, like you can do all of this stuff. I do all the time. Uh, they also recently
00:41:18 ◼ ► Luna displays always having a bunch of updates to make the system better, including the new
00:41:21 ◼ ► liquid video engine, which brings significantly reduced latency and faster screen refresh
00:41:37 ◼ ► display.com. Use the promo code upgrade at checkout. That is Luna display.com promo code
00:41:43 ◼ ► upgrade at checkout. Go there right now and upgrade your setup. You're going to love it.
00:41:48 ◼ ► Our thanks to Luna display for their support of this show and all of relay FM. So we mentioned
00:41:54 ◼ ► overcast a moment ago, uh, over the weekend, uh, Marco shocked the world and introduced
00:41:59 ◼ ► a new feature to overcast. Um, about basically with the idea to share clips, to be able to
00:42:10 ◼ ► you're like, Oh, that was a good little clip. Previously, what you would do is you grabbed
00:42:18 ◼ ► episode, but there's no context there. There's nothing, there's no, cause it's so difficult
00:42:24 ◼ ► to share this stuff. Or maybe you'd, you'd get a timestamp link in overcast and you tweet
00:42:28 ◼ ► that, but not everybody uses overcast or any other app that might do this. Right. So like
00:42:33 ◼ ► then you kind of locked in and you might, you might not click it because you use pocket
00:42:38 ◼ ► costs. So like what uses this to you? You can't do anything with that. And it's a weird
00:42:41 ◼ ► context where it's loading a webpage and then it has to load the whole file and wait until
00:42:53 ◼ ► drifted and then you're not even sharing that moment that you want to share. So Marco has
00:43:13 ◼ ► vertical or square formats. And it uses the show artwork and it has like some animation
00:43:23 ◼ ► Apple podcast branding or no branding at all. That is a Marco move. I think if I've ever
00:43:30 ◼ ► seen one that like he will just let you not put his branding in there. Right. We'll get
00:43:34 ◼ ► into that a little bit more in a minute because I think it's actually pretty important when
00:43:38 ◼ ► talking about this whole thing in general. This was all inspired by a thing that my Relay
00:43:44 ◼ ► FM co founder Stephen Hackett said on an interview show that he was on called Unco. It's actually
00:43:50 ◼ ► a really good interview, the whole thing kind of like Stephen's thoughts on podcasting,
00:43:58 ◼ ► podcasts that it's super hard to share clips that might give people a taste of the show
00:44:12 ◼ ► the tools that currently exist. Right. Like I would open like Final Cut. Right. And drop
00:44:17 ◼ ► everything in just for the sake of creating a 25 second clip that I could show on Instagram.
00:44:32 ◼ ► would be too much hassle for me to do this, no listener is ever going to do this. Right.
00:44:42 ◼ ► a 20 second clip of a show that you enjoyed. And I don't know about you, Jason, but I've
00:44:52 ◼ ► it because I've seen people sharing stuff that they like. I've had listeners of my shows
00:45:01 ◼ ► and listening to these like 20 second random things from like years ago. You know, like
00:45:17 ◼ ► trying to get into that mindset a little bit more and I hope to see people sharing this
00:45:21 ◼ ► stuff too. What did you think about this feature? I well first off it's funny because as a beta
00:45:27 ◼ ► tester of Overcast, I think it's funny that he didn't beta test this feature. No, that's
00:45:36 ◼ ► He didn't want to put it through the approval process for test flight. So he just did it
00:45:48 ◼ ► he's trying to keep it within fair use which is why it's a single like minute clip because
00:45:53 ◼ ► he wants this to be a viral thing that promotes podcasts. I think he's run up against some
00:46:09 ◼ ► it should be like you can share the video but it doesn't come with a link to the podcast
00:46:13 ◼ ► because it's just a video. Yeah, and so then you need to like copy the Overcast link and
00:46:30 ◼ ► name of the episode and a link to the podcast or something like that something a little
00:46:39 ◼ ► in that situation but at the bottom of this, you know, he's trying to solve a problem that
00:46:44 ◼ ► we've all been moaning about for a long time, which is it's very hard to share to really
00:46:49 ◼ ► share a great moment in a podcast and have it, you know, have it kind of go viral instead
00:46:55 ◼ ► I see these links all the time where people are like, oh, this was a really great moment
00:47:04 ◼ ► to download an entire episode of your podcast. That's a harder sell not sight unseen but
00:47:10 ◼ ► like here on heard. Yeah here on heard exactly right. So instead I get to listen to a clip
00:47:21 ◼ ► I'll go listen to it. But also it allows fans listeners of podcast to share favorite moments
00:47:36 ◼ ► tools are for podcasting in general because there are a lot of like proprietary systems
00:47:43 ◼ ► like platforms and stuff like that that will that can generate these things for you, but
00:47:47 ◼ ► you have to work with them. You have a host of them. I have an arrangement with them like
00:47:50 ◼ ► you'd be a part of this like big huge CMS network thing and that's not tenable for most
00:47:57 ◼ ► people right like it's requiring way too much and I think that this stuff is really useful
00:48:09 ◼ ► when it is available to everybody right like I hope the other third party apps find a way
00:48:19 ◼ ► and Marco was one of my closest friends. So I want him to get more customers because of
00:48:36 ◼ ► branding thing the fact that Marco will allow you to put branding in or not is that I feel
00:48:42 ◼ ► like that whilst he is very happy to have it out first would also encourage other people
00:48:48 ◼ ► to do this because it is good for the overall podcasting ecosystem that we all seem to care
00:48:55 ◼ ► so strongly about like and it was like a quote from Marco's kind of announcement posted this
00:49:01 ◼ ► that I wanted to read where he said for podcasting to remain open and free we must not leave
00:49:28 ◼ ► is run by someone whose podcast politics align with my own because you know it makes me happy
00:49:41 ◼ ► that someone like Marco is I mean this is very we're inside baseball right now but this
00:49:46 ◼ ► is like coming in from a weekend of this this this startup called luminary which is like
00:49:52 ◼ ► a closed platform system that is that really upset a lot of podcasters because they said
00:49:59 ◼ ► podcast didn't need ads and they are a system where it is a regular app but it also has
00:50:11 ◼ ► podcast then as a paid tier where they have a bunch of stuff which is exclusive for them
00:50:16 ◼ ► and they will kind of when they first came onto the scene their whole PR was about like
00:50:19 ◼ ► oh we're better because our shows don't have ads and podcasts don't need ads and they just
00:50:23 ◼ ► need our system instead and then there's been this whole furor over the weekend of just
00:50:28 ◼ ► a million basically a million different things that luminary has done wrong throughout their
00:50:32 ◼ ► launch and the way that they're communicating and so after something like this to see a
00:50:37 ◼ ► tool like this and you know for it coming from Marco is like I consider it a good thing
00:50:43 ◼ ► I personally am not worried at all about the future of our business here I have seen and
00:50:54 ◼ ► maybe being naive but I've been doing this only 10 years and I've seen a million things
00:50:59 ◼ ► come and go that are going to destroy podcasting especially over the last few years and I have
00:51:07 ◼ ► seen every single one of these make absolutely no dent in anything maybe at some point it's
00:51:14 ◼ ► going to happen but I don't think that we are any closer to the heat death of podcasting
00:51:19 ◼ ► now than we were five years ago like I just don't think that it is significantly closer
00:51:24 ◼ ► like the part of the industry that we're in is still growing you know like I don't really
00:51:33 ◼ ► know how much people want to hear about this sort of stuff but like advertising revenue
00:51:37 ◼ ► is going up and if you're in the right places at the right times and you're doing the right
00:51:41 ◼ ► things like this business can still be an extremely viable one if you do it in the right
00:51:55 ◼ ► the web is that the web browsers are just part of the landscape of your device everybody's
00:52:04 ◼ ► give away things on the web and have advertising you can do that and if you want to charge
00:52:08 ◼ ► for content on the web you can do that and that the way forward for podcasting is probably
00:52:29 ◼ ► for this like you do in the web so authentication and you some podcast apps support authentication
00:52:37 ◼ ► now where you can put in a username and a password and get to a password protected feed
00:52:46 ◼ ► right now is a unified way of doing that where if you try to subscribe to this podcast a
00:52:53 ◼ ► put in your username and password prompt comes up and then you do that and every podcast
00:52:58 ◼ ► Right this you're saying like if if what you want to do is have some method of podcasting
00:53:09 ◼ ► if you want to charge the and build a fairly simple experience for people who want to pay
00:53:15 ◼ ► to listen to a podcast or a network of podcasts you have to build your own app basically because
00:53:43 ◼ ► Street Journal New York Times the Financial Times you name it and podcasts that part is
00:53:49 ◼ ► hard right now because it didn't really get built that way and I feel like the best thing
00:53:54 ◼ ► that the open podcast community could do is try to find a way forward that lets open podcast
00:54:23 ◼ ► a different app in order to listen to these certain kinds of podcasts that are not available
00:54:28 ◼ ► elsewhere and that and then my all my other podcasts are over here and that kind of stinks
00:54:40 ◼ ► to that and I basically never listened to it because it's in a different app and I don't
00:54:50 ◼ ► want to have a separate app like audible to do audiobooks right like a separate app but
00:54:54 ◼ ► where luminary is kind of in the middle here is this they want to have it both ways they
00:54:58 ◼ ► want to they want to be part of the open podcast environment that people like and sell you
00:55:07 ◼ ► and and and I do see that as another weakness of the podcast world like I I have for because
00:55:19 ◼ ► so there we both have have this and you know it's kind of security through obscurity it's
00:55:31 ◼ ► way for me to just say put in your six colors or incomparable username and password and
00:55:36 ◼ ► then you get access to these podcasts on every podcast player on every platform but it doesn't
00:55:42 ◼ ► exist so I you know that that to me is a hole that I would love to see plugged somehow maybe
00:55:48 ◼ ► somebody should pull VC money into that idea well actually you know what would be really
00:55:53 ◼ ► interesting is if Apple did it did it if Apple came up with a system where Apple said from
00:55:58 ◼ ► now on the podcast app will accept this method of authentication and only this method and
00:56:08 ◼ ► paid only and allow previews and like if Apple built that feature out and it wasn't just
00:56:15 ◼ ► for Apple's player key point they could move the entire market to do it I feel like probably
00:56:22 ◼ ► the company close enough right now is patreon well patreon right patreon has that idea that
00:56:30 ◼ ► you're logging in and you get a URL URL it's still complicated but they could provide an
00:56:40 ◼ ► be great it would I think Apple doing it would be the one that would push had the highest
00:56:45 ◼ ► chance but you're right patreon could could help matters too I just like Apple would be
00:56:49 ◼ ► less likely to make it open to everyone then patreon well that's I feel I feel that's the
00:56:59 ◼ ► I mean Apple so far has not really exerted their authority in this space maybe they would
00:57:07 ◼ ► but I don't know that is a challenge but this you know this is a whole about the lack of
00:57:18 ◼ ► how many times have I had a moment where I am drawn I'm driven to tears by wacky things
00:57:23 ◼ ► happening on the flophouse and I just can't I just can't share it like I can't share when
00:57:31 ◼ ► Stewart doesn't understand the key for Sutherland is in trapped inside the mirror at the end
00:57:52 ◼ ► this I really really want people to use it and I'm so pleased that Marco made it I think
00:57:57 ◼ ► it's I think it's really awesome and I'm very pleased to see stuff like this exist and I
00:58:03 ◼ ► hope that more people do this I hope to see you know my hope would be like that this feature
00:58:10 ◼ ► does so well that Marco puts even more effort onto stuff like this right and and there is
00:58:16 ◼ ► a business benefit for him like a legit business benefit like it is making his app better as
00:58:40 ◼ ► around here whatever you want but like I would say if you do ever share any clip of my show
00:58:53 ◼ ► feedback especially detailed feedback about like this was really funny right that you're
00:58:57 ◼ ► an audience that might laugh or scowl or whatever to what we say unless we're live you know
00:59:03 ◼ ► in the theater in Chicago or at WWDC or whatever like we don't get that feedback about like
00:59:09 ◼ ► I really like this bit it's very hard to express that because you listen to the whole podcast
00:59:33 ◼ ► with links today show is brought to you by hello hello make insanely comfortable buckwheat
00:59:38 ◼ ► pillows I don't know if you've ever tried a buckwheat pillow but it is pretty different
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01:01:35 ◼ ► fmo because then I could say that whole thing and it would rhyme because it's thank you
01:02:05 ◼ ► to give me them unless I was quiet for a long time so here we are Andrew asks does Jason
01:02:11 ◼ ► make pistol fingers or stabby pointing hands while doing lasers no no first off fingers
01:02:19 ◼ ► don't shoot lasers okay okay they don't that's silly that's ridiculous I I just lean I lean
01:02:25 ◼ ► into the microphone and then the lasers emerge you lean in I do for lasers I get in as close
01:02:34 ◼ ► as I can to the microphone I'm actually touching the microphone with my face to get the full
01:02:40 ◼ ► laser experience oh wow yeah can you give me a laser from from regular distance oh that
01:02:53 ◼ ► want I want lasers this is if people are gonna make clips of this is this what is this what
01:02:59 ◼ ► they're gonna make take it all back Jeff wants to know do you know of any podcast apps that
01:03:06 ◼ ► support re-listening to old shows I'm thinking of something where I can tell it to start
01:03:10 ◼ ► with this episode and then download a new episode every X days so you kind of listening
01:03:15 ◼ ► in a time machine so I call this the Syracuse a feature because John always tells us you
01:03:22 ◼ ► start at the beginning I don't even know if it needs to download an episode every X days
01:03:30 ◼ ► which is start at the beginning and keep three episodes or whatever download this many episodes
01:03:41 ◼ ► want to say you know keep three episodes and start at the beginning and so it'll download
01:03:49 ◼ ► yeah and the key part here this is not a sorting option this is the I like because you can
01:03:54 ◼ ► a lot of apps have sorting options right where you can like right reorder them this is the
01:03:59 ◼ ► idea that like it would show up in your all unfinished playlist or whatever or your like
01:04:04 ◼ ► all unplayed playlist or whatever function of your app which shows like a chronological
01:04:09 ◼ ► list of all the stuff you have to listen to right like it's a new episode but it's actually
01:04:13 ◼ ► not and I agree I think this I think stuff like this should be great I don't know about
01:04:24 ◼ ► overcast pretty hard because there are podcasts I listen to now that I am way behind and I
01:04:39 ◼ ► with this one I listen to the next one but because it's a podcast that's that's currently
01:04:45 ◼ ► like 50 episodes ahead that is more work than I'd like I'd really like to say you know I
01:04:56 ◼ ► me new episodes and you could do you could do it keep giving me a new episode every week
01:05:06 ◼ ► to say you know keep three or five or whatever at any one time and then as I as I've finished
01:05:11 ◼ ► the last one put the next one in the download queue or in the playlist or in the streaming
01:05:16 ◼ ► queue because I'm gonna keep on moving forward I think I think this is fitting with our theme
01:05:25 ◼ ► do this now but it's more work and it shouldn't need to be some podcasts there's even a tag
01:05:30 ◼ ► in iTunes Apple made a tag that is basically start from the start instead of show me the
01:05:41 ◼ ► ago nobody's using unfortunately they're very hard to implement visually but that's an interesting
01:05:48 ◼ ► idea where like that could be a cue for somebody for an app developer to be like oh I'm gonna
01:06:00 ◼ ► that the D&D podcast that I do it it's a start at the beginning podcast and you can draw
01:06:06 ◼ ► you can jump in anywhere but it is a series of linear stories with different groups but
01:06:15 ◼ ► no podcast apps other than apples that support you using all I like you're using all of the
01:06:19 ◼ ► features I got all the nobody nobody's all in there them because even apples implementation
01:06:24 ◼ ► some of this stuff leaves a lot to be desired yeah I agree and I think that's why no other
01:06:28 ◼ ► apps have implemented them because the creator of this new part of the RSS standard has yet
01:06:35 ◼ ► to implement it in a way that visually makes a lot of sense that that is pleasing I you
01:06:40 ◼ ► know I wish that they that some of that rich data would get better used but I understand
01:06:44 ◼ ► also that most people don't use it and so there's no point in it but this is an example
01:06:47 ◼ ► where it might actually be helpful to say you know oh I can tell at least on some podcast
01:06:57 ◼ ► it should be easier for users who want to start at the start of something if I'm listening
01:07:00 ◼ ► to hello from the magic tavern I tell somebody because let me tell you now it's great it's
01:07:05 ◼ ► an improvised fantasy podcast about a human from earth who lands on a fantasy world and
01:07:10 ◼ ► he and a wizard and a shape-shifting badger person do a podcast every week and it's entirely
01:07:29 ◼ ► the magic tavern and make the effort to tap in the right places and play the first episode
01:07:39 ◼ ► the magic tavern because you don't want to hear it you want to hear episode one and then
01:07:45 ◼ ► if you like it episode two that's how it should be consumed my my one of these is the adventure
01:07:52 ◼ ► zone yeah that's a great I mean the dnd podcast so the the adventure zone dragon friends are
01:07:57 ◼ ► both both those podcasts or podcasts I'm listening to from way back in the catalog and I would
01:08:02 ◼ ► actually listen to them more often if I didn't have to go and say oh where am I in the adventure
01:08:13 ◼ ► just subscribe to it right like uh like jeff suggests here I will say I would like to to
01:08:25 ◼ ► Marco adding features to his app so you know sorry Marco because we're clearly directing
01:08:32 ◼ ► this at you now I think at least I am because it's the app that I use and I want that feature
01:08:43 ◼ ► an app they will be required to distribute it via the mac app store 100% kevin 100% this
01:08:50 ◼ ► is probably a bigger discussion for a later episode as again we either get closer to or
01:09:06 ◼ ► I think eventually you're going to be able to buy either for a discount or whatever you're
01:09:10 ◼ ► going to just be able to buy all of the um all of the apps for all the platforms at once
01:09:18 ◼ ► ios app yeah I think in the long run that's probably not going to be the case that they'll
01:09:22 ◼ ► get bundled together or at least developers will have the option to bundle the app across
01:09:26 ◼ ► platforms together maybe for a special price who knows and then we'll stop calling it the
01:09:30 ◼ ► mac app store yeah it'll just be the app store I think there's I wouldn't say it's 100 I'd
01:09:35 ◼ ► say it's like 95% because it's possible with all these new things that they're adding um
01:09:44 ◼ ► be a few things you can do it's possible that that they'll let marzipan apps in as notarized
01:09:56 ◼ ► being released but I think it's also entirely possible that it'll be 100% mac app store
01:10:02 ◼ ► uh my kind of where I think the line will be drawn if like from a user interface perspective
01:10:18 ◼ ► of think of it in my brain if your app's going to look like an ios app it's going through
01:10:28 ◼ ► jack says you're very skilled in the art of speaking on a podcast did that come just from
01:10:33 ◼ ► experience prove that this week I don't know oh did you actually do something conscious
01:10:37 ◼ ► to learn these skills I don't mean recording I mean speaking and presenting voice modulation
01:11:01 ◼ ► and paying attention to the things that annoy people more frequently because they can't
01:11:11 ◼ ► speak if you're Myke Hurley you lost a lot of your accent is what happened is you became
01:11:18 ◼ ► more like an American person it's I think there's multiple things going on here I think
01:11:27 ◼ ► I I gave my elementary school graduation speech I was in radio in high school humblebrag I
01:11:37 ◼ ► gave a I gave a speech at my high school graduation I you know I I have done I I got a bunch of
01:11:45 ◼ ► medals at the speech festival when I was in eighth grade I had the key to the sea because
01:11:54 ◼ ► of a great speech that I gave once I'm Batman no I you know so I I've been doing this a
01:12:02 ◼ ► long time of like public speaking public also part of his personality which is public speaking
01:12:06 ◼ ► has never bothered me like some people say it's the worst thing that you could possibly
01:12:11 ◼ ► do there's death and then like one up on the list of terrible things is public speaking
01:12:15 ◼ ► I've never felt that way I am awkward in lots of social situations but in front of a crowd
01:12:25 ◼ ► which is then you do this for years and every now and then I get an email from somebody
01:12:33 ◼ ► number one and wow that you are much better now than you were back then it's like thanks
01:12:38 ◼ ► I guess like you're insulting my past to compliment my present how do you get to do a live show
01:12:50 ◼ ► you just wander on the stage that's well and that was going to be my point is one of the
01:12:54 ◼ ► reasons that I don't feel bad about somebody saying I listen to incomparable number one
01:12:58 ◼ ► from August 2010 and wow your podcast is much better now is because it it should be right
01:13:04 ◼ ► yeah like you would I hope so I would really not be happy if I did something for nine years
01:13:11 ◼ ► and didn't get better at it like that is not not just like the technology and I'm using
01:13:16 ◼ ► a better microphone I'm better at microphone technique and I'm better at editing podcasts
01:13:19 ◼ ► and all that but I should be better as a host I should be better at speaking like you should
01:13:27 ◼ ► to get started and and get better as you go and that's true for everybody so don't don't
01:13:33 ◼ ► say you know don't say oh I can't do a podcast because I'm not as polished as all the podcasts
01:13:38 ◼ ► that I've been listening to for many years like you got to start somewhere yeah and you'll
01:13:41 ◼ ► never go down that road if you never get started if you feel that way because like you're like
01:13:45 ◼ ► oh I love this show and I'd never be as good as them just go back to the earliest recording
01:13:50 ◼ ► you can find of that person and you will immediately feel better about yourself Myke has done a
01:14:18 ◼ ► with his pen he will anger him and finally Jay Lilly asks I'm getting a MacBook Air for
01:14:44 ◼ ► of RAM as a standard is actually pretty great so unless she's doing stuff like she's got
01:14:48 ◼ ► lots and lots of apps open at once and things like that I think I think the best buy on
01:14:53 ◼ ► laptops right now is to watch for one of these sales on Amazon or elsewhere where the MacBook
01:15:04 ◼ ► great deal if you can get one and I've gotten to that way so I feel like that's the best
01:15:08 ◼ ► thing to do is just get the base model because for most uses it's gonna be fine like unless
01:15:14 ◼ ► unless she's getting her master's in like 3d graphics or computer science or engineering
01:15:29 ◼ ► would go with the base model because I think the base model is pretty good and honestly
01:15:32 ◼ ► I probably spend money on disk before it's been on RAM because the base disk on the MacBook
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