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Upgrade

243: Fiddling Around With Folders

 

00:00:00 ◼   ► [Music]

00:00:08 ◼   ► From Relay FM, this is Upgrade Episode 243, brought to you by Hello, Luna Display and

00:00:15 ◼   ► Butchobox. My name is Myke Hurley and I'm joined by Jason Snell. Hi Jason Snell.

00:00:19 ◼   ► Hi Myke Hurley, how are you? I am very well fine and dandy indeed and I have a hashtag

00:00:24 ◼   ► SnellTalkQuestion from number one Upgrading Casey who wants to know if you could watch

00:00:30 ◼   ► a movie or series for the first time all over again, what would it be?

00:00:35 ◼   ► Hmm, that's a good question from number one fan Casey. I think I'm gonna say Lost.

00:00:42 ◼   ► And I know that's controversial because a lot of people don't like how Lost ended, but

00:00:45 ◼   ► you know I loved Lost. I loved the whole thing. If you didn't like how it ended, wouldn't

00:00:49 ◼   ► that make it the perfect show to watch this way? So like if you ever did watch it again,

00:00:53 ◼   ► you wouldn't remember how badly it ended? I also feel like one of the big problems with

00:00:56 ◼   ► Lost at the time, because Lost was a very modern show, a little bit, it was a little

00:01:00 ◼   ► bit before its time, and because it was network TV, there were long gaps between episodes.

00:01:07 ◼   ► So you get like eight episodes and then they'd be off for six weeks and then you get four

00:01:11 ◼   ► episodes and then it would be off for five weeks. And I would love to watch that show

00:01:16 ◼   ► for the first time being able to basically binge it or at least you know watch it at

00:01:21 ◼   ► my own pace over the course of a few weeks instead of having to stretch it out over years

00:01:25 ◼   ► with huge gaps in between seasons. Because I think the show plays a lot better when you're

00:01:32 ◼   ► not losing narrative momentum every six episodes as they stop for a rerun break. So I have

00:01:39 ◼   ► been meaning to do a Lost rewatch and I will at some point, but in the meantime I think

00:01:44 ◼   ► that's gonna be my answer. It's not my favorite show, although it probably is in my top five

00:01:48 ◼   ► of all time, but I think it would be the one that would benefit the most. And for movies

00:01:53 ◼   ► I don't think I have an answer for movies. There are a lot of movies that I love, I'm

00:01:57 ◼   ► not sure there's a movie that I would want to... I feel like the going for the ride for

00:02:02 ◼   ► a TV show where you don't know where it's going is just more fulfilling over the long

00:02:06 ◼   ► haul than a single movie.

00:02:07 ◼   ► I think that for this question TV shows are better than movies, unless it's like a movie

00:02:12 ◼   ► series right? Like if you wanted to watch Star Wars you know.

00:02:17 ◼   ► Yeah or all the Marvel movies, something like that.

00:02:19 ◼   ► Yeah, that would take a long time to watch all the Marvel movies. People do that though,

00:02:24 ◼   ► do you see that? Like I saw people doing that, they do like a three or four day basically

00:02:29 ◼   ► live in the cinema. I couldn't imagine watching movies that way. You could lose your mind.

00:02:34 ◼   ► Yes.

00:02:35 ◼   ► Thank you to Number One Upgrading Casey for sending in this Snell Talk question. If you

00:02:39 ◼   ► want to have a question to help open a future episode of Upgrade just send out a tweet with

00:02:44 ◼   ► the hashtag SnellTalk and it may be considered for future use.

00:02:49 ◼   ► We have very exciting news, we have merchandise available for you right now.

00:02:55 ◼   ► Right now.

00:02:56 ◼   ► Upgradeyourwardrobe.com, that is upgradeyourwardrobe.com, there's also links in our show notes. Look

00:03:02 ◼   ► the Summer of Fun is approaching, right? We can hear the waves crashing, we know it's

00:03:06 ◼   ► on the way and we thought to ourselves, you know, we want to make sure that the Upgradients

00:03:12 ◼   ► are ready for the summer, people are headed to the beach. Luckily for all of us, you don't

00:03:17 ◼   ► have to leave Dongletown behind because now you can join the Dongletown Surf Club. We

00:03:23 ◼   ► have a whole range of items available including a Dongletown Surf Club tea and tank top so

00:03:29 ◼   ► you're ready for the beach, a Dongletown Surf Club tote bag and quite possibly, in my opinion,

00:03:35 ◼   ► the greatest podcast merchandise ever created, the Dongletown. Yes, we've made a beach towel.

00:03:42 ◼   ► It says Dongletown Surf Club on it. It's true. It's true. Also the classic Dongletown

00:03:48 ◼   ► t-shirt is back in stock in the Navy variation and this is our pre-WWDC get ready for the

00:03:56 ◼   ► Summer of Fun Ensemble.

00:03:59 ◼   ► We're doing it now because we want to make sure that like, so basically you can buy it

00:04:02 ◼   ► now. It's available till May 13th. It should arrive before WWDC if you're in the US. That's

00:04:07 ◼   ► why we're doing it right now. That's why ATP are doing theirs right now also. So if you

00:04:12 ◼   ► haven't yet bought ATP merch, why don't you buy it all together and just pay once for

00:04:16 ◼   ► shipping? We, I will say, I love, we had such great response to the original Dongletown

00:04:24 ◼   ► tea. This is my favorite of the two design-wise. I think this is perfect. This has a couple

00:04:31 ◼   ► of excellent puns on it. I would say read all the text out loud. That would be my tip

00:04:37 ◼   ► to you. Just read it all out loud because you might notice something you wouldn't have

00:04:41 ◼   ► noticed otherwise. And I want to just mention about the towel. So it's an actual beach towel,

00:04:47 ◼   ► like a real deal beach towel. We're working with our friends at Cotton Bureau. This is

00:04:52 ◼   ► why I love working with Cotton Bureau because Jason said to me, wouldn't it be nice if we

00:04:56 ◼   ► did a towel? And I said, Jason, yes, it definitely would be. So I contacted our friends at Cotton

00:05:03 ◼   ► Bureau. I told them what we wanted to do and they do what they always do for me, which

00:05:07 ◼   ► I appreciate so much when I come up with these weird and wonderful things where they're like,

00:05:11 ◼   ► hmm, let's see if we can do that. And then they go away and they come back to me and

00:05:15 ◼   ► they find a way to do it. So we have a, like, I'm really, really excited about this merchandise

00:05:20 ◼   ► this year because I love the design in general, but I am very excited about tote bags and

00:05:26 ◼   ► beach towels. Like that is just like a fantastic, like, isn't it great? You know, like maybe,

00:05:31 ◼   ► maybe you're a person like t-shirts aren't for you. Well now you can buy a tote bag or

00:05:35 ◼   ► a beach towel and you'll be happy. So go to upgradeyourwardrobe.com.

00:05:40 ◼   ► I had told you that I got stopped somewhere. I was actually on a walk with my dog and somebody

00:05:47 ◼   ► actually asked me where dongle town was. Interesting. And I said, okay, how am I going to respond

00:05:55 ◼   ► here? And I said, I let him in on it. I said, it's kind of a joke about how, you know, if

00:06:01 ◼   ► you buy a new computer, you have to plug in like an adapter, like a dongle in order to

00:06:05 ◼   ► get it to work. And he was like, oh, and I said, it's a computer thing. And then I ran

00:06:09 ◼   ► away. You should have just said it's in all of our minds and in the bottom of our backpacks.

00:06:16 ◼   ► That's where dongle town is. It's everywhere. Dongle town is all around us. But being in

00:06:19 ◼   ► California, people are like, oh, dongle town, California, where is that? And the answer

00:06:22 ◼   ► is it's everywhere. Oh, I guess that's the problem being in California. Oh, uh, Myke,

00:06:29 ◼   ► I was very confused that dongle town surf club didn't come in the tank top, like you

00:06:32 ◼   ► said, but it turns out right at the very top of the, of the page, there's a little toggle

00:06:36 ◼   ► for T or tank. So if you're a, if you want to show off the guns, I will not be buying

00:06:42 ◼   ► the tank top, but there it is. It's available for you. I'm going to buy the tank top. I

00:06:47 ◼   ► will probably never wear the tank top, but Adina is very excited about the tank top.

00:06:51 ◼   ► Awesome. I am. I'm glad to have it. And for those who are wondering about more traditional

00:06:56 ◼   ► upgrade merch of logos and hoodies and things like that, that's more of our fall collection.

00:07:01 ◼   ► I would say this is our summer collection. Yeah. Yeah. Let's go with that. Oh, there

00:07:09 ◼   ► are also some pins left. Some sort of, we have a small amount of logo pins left if you

00:07:12 ◼   ► want to get those too. But, uh, upgrade your wardrobe.com. Get ready for the summer. It's

00:07:19 ◼   ► only available for a couple of weeks. You don't want to miss out on these ones. Uh,

00:07:22 ◼   ► so go get it. Um, follow up, no spoilers. We have both seen Avengers Endgame. We're

00:07:27 ◼   ► not going to be talking about it on this show as we would usually do. There's going to be

00:07:30 ◼   ► no mic in the movies about it because we're both going to be discussing it on the incomparable

00:07:33 ◼   ► this week. So Jason has finally allowed me to be on the episode of the incomparable and

00:07:39 ◼   ► I'm very excited. Yeah. We're going to talk about it on Saturday. So we get a week to

00:07:42 ◼   ► think about it and then we'll talk about it on Saturday and I will, my plan is to talk

00:07:45 ◼   ► about and release that episode next Saturday and then there's a second panel of the incomparable

00:07:50 ◼   ► because everybody wanted to talk about it and that'll probably release Sunday. So it's a

00:07:53 ◼   ► double feature, but you and I will be on that episode on a, on Saturday so people can keep

00:07:59 ◼   ► their eyes on the incomparable. I wonder what the total runtime of those two episodes will

00:08:03 ◼   ► look like compared to the total runtime of Endgame. Well, I mean, that's a good question.

00:08:09 ◼   ► I think, I think if you put them both together, I think it would be great if you put those

00:08:13 ◼   ► two episodes together, it was the runtime of Endgame. I fear it will be more than that.

00:08:17 ◼   ► Yeah, I reckon it will be more than that too. I have a lot to say. I don't know if I'm going

00:08:21 ◼   ► to be able to get the time to see it again though. That's the problem. I'm hoping to

00:08:26 ◼   ► see it again this week because there's a, it's a, it's a three hour movie. There's a

00:08:30 ◼   ► lot in there and I would love to see what I kind of missed the first time. I've, you

00:08:37 ◼   ► know, podcasting about a movie you see once so much of what I do is a movie that I watched

00:08:40 ◼   ► on video after seeing it in the theater or it's a TV show where I can watch it. It is

00:08:44 ◼   ► a very different experience when you can only watch it once and you can't take notes, which

00:08:49 ◼   ► is what happens when you see a movie in the theater. So I'm hoping to go back and see

00:08:52 ◼   ► it sometime this week if I get a, if I get a chance. You know, I realized Marvel movies

00:08:57 ◼   ► have occupied a third of my life. Oh yeah. Isn't that wild? That's true. Isn't that wild?

00:09:02 ◼   ► Yeah. All right. So you can look out for that. Well, that's it. They're never making any

00:09:06 ◼   ► more Marvel movies now. That was it. The end. That was what it meant. Yep. Spoilers. That

00:09:11 ◼   ► was it. That's what we said at the end. Disney, yes. Disney stock went down on the revelation

00:09:15 ◼   ► at the end of Avengers Endgame that Marvel comics is shutting down. Strange. It's a shame

00:09:20 ◼   ► they made a billion dollars this weekend. They should probably keep going, but oh well.

00:09:23 ◼   ► I found it really weird when Captain America looked directly into the camera and said,

00:09:28 ◼   ► that's it for Marvel now. See you kids. That's it. Go home. Very strange. He took off his

00:09:31 ◼   ► mask and he just dropped his shield and walked off and said, said, uh, later losers, no more

00:09:38 ◼   ► superheroes. Go find your Batman. If you love him so much. It was really weird. Yeah. Well,

00:09:44 ◼   ► I thought the moment where Captain America endorsed Batman was perhaps the strangest part

00:09:48 ◼   ► of that. He's like, you know, Batman's pretty great. Go talk to Batman. Bye. Smell you later.

00:09:53 ◼   ► Smell you later. He was out of there. Yep. It would have been a new catchphrase if only

00:09:56 ◼   ► there was more Captain America movies, but unfortunately no more because there are no

00:10:00 ◼   ► more Marvel movies. All right, let's do some upstream. Got a couple of headlines in streaming

00:10:05 ◼   ► media. Uh, Comcast, believe it or not, as if it couldn't have been predicted is in talks

00:10:10 ◼   ► to sell Hulu to Disney. Uh, according to CNBC sources, Comcast is currently weighing up

00:10:16 ◼   ► its options over what to do with its 30% stake in the streaming service. One of those options

00:10:21 ◼   ► is indeed to sell it to Disney and Comcast and Disney are talking about it. Uh, I mean,

00:10:27 ◼   ► everybody knew this, right? Like this was not, this is not a revelation, but seeing

00:10:31 ◼   ► it on CNBC makes it seem more real than just what we'd believe would happen. Yeah. The

00:10:36 ◼   ► new piece of information here is that they are talking, uh, which is, I think that was

00:10:41 ◼   ► unclear whether there was active conversations about the future of Hulu and the ownership

00:10:45 ◼   ► of Hulu or whether they were just sort of like, everybody knew that this would be a

00:10:49 ◼   ► thing that needed to happen, but they are talking. What the CNBC story says is that

00:10:55 ◼   ► Comcast has not decided what it wants to do. And it, and they went into, you know, it's

00:11:00 ◼   ► very much the arguments that we discussed maybe last week, which is the idea that, uh,

00:11:05 ◼   ► they could keep their stake and be a part of something and sort of get a peek into Disney

00:11:10 ◼   ► strategy, their competitor, but at the same time, they would also be involved with their

00:11:14 ◼   ► competitor instead of doing their own thing. So I think it sounds like Comcast is also

00:11:19 ◼   ► weighing sort of strategically and maybe the game here is also like basically what's it

00:11:23 ◼   ► worth it to you? What's it worth it to us? What's it worth it to you? It's a complicated,

00:11:27 ◼   ► uh, thing and it could go either way. I think the cleanest thing would be for Comcast to

00:11:31 ◼   ► get some cash and walk away and use that cash to build their own streaming service rather

00:11:37 ◼   ► than a kind of continuing to partner with Hulu. But what they did say, and I think this

00:11:41 ◼   ► is an important point is Hulu has, you know, it's not just a place where you come for original

00:11:47 ◼   ► streaming. It is the TV industry's, um, playback for broadcast TV in the U S and Comcast did

00:11:56 ◼   ► say that they are happy with, you know, the fact that they put their shows on Hulu. I

00:12:00 ◼   ► still have got to think that in the long run, um, they're going to want to put all of their

00:12:05 ◼   ► shows, including NBC's network TV shows on their streaming service, um, because that

00:12:10 ◼   ► then it's a direct customer relationship with their content. And I think it's actually a

00:12:14 ◼   ► pretty great thing having bought CBS all access for star Trek. I have, uh, I have watched

00:12:23 ◼   ► some CBS shows that I would not have thought to watch or would have forgotten to record

00:12:28 ◼   ► on my DVR. But the way that service works, you get access to all their shows. The moment

00:12:33 ◼   ► that they air, um, they're on, it's like HBO go the moment that the CBS shows air they're

00:12:38 ◼   ► on streaming and I'm on the ad free tier. So it's basically all the CBS shows are available

00:12:44 ◼   ► for me, ad free, no commercials by paying for this. And there's something it's actually,

00:12:49 ◼   ► that's not bad. Like the combination of all the network shows, the w when I want to watch

00:12:53 ◼   ► them and all their originals in one package, I look at CBS all access, which is very narrow.

00:12:59 ◼   ► And I think this is a model like this is what Disney should take all of ABC and put it on

00:13:04 ◼   ► Hulu. NBC universal should take all of NBC and put it on their new streaming service.

00:13:09 ◼   ► That's like, that's how you should do it. That it actually makes a lot of sense. I think

00:13:12 ◼   ► it really, uh, strengthens the service by basically saying we have a TV network, but

00:13:18 ◼   ► you're streaming, so you're obviously not watching it. So you get these shows here instead.

00:13:22 ◼   ► Like I don't see the problem with that. So, um, I have a hard time seeing them in the

00:13:26 ◼   ► long run staying, but they're talking, it's good. And Warner media will be showing off

00:13:31 ◼   ► their streaming service this fall. CEO Randall Stevenson has said that they will be giving

00:13:36 ◼   ► a detailed look at the platform and its content in either September or October. Um, they on

00:13:41 ◼   ► the line that HBO will be at the center of the platform. And this is a quote, the Disney

00:13:46 ◼   ► announcement gave us nothing but more optimism about what we'll be able to bring to market.

00:13:51 ◼   ► Um, that considering the quotes that surround all of this does not sound as snarky as you

00:13:57 ◼   ► could imagine it sounding. Um, it actually was more of like a Disney have a really good

00:14:02 ◼   ► offering kind of thing. And it looks like something that's exciting and we think we

00:14:07 ◼   ► can do it too. Not so much of like, Oh, saw what they did. You want to see what we got?

00:14:12 ◼   ► It was, I think it was more, and I think rightly so that Warner media should be encouraged

00:14:15 ◼   ► by Disney. Um, and, and I think that Warner media really feel like they have something

00:14:22 ◼   ► to offer and it's not necessarily what people think of them as having, right? Like I think

00:14:27 ◼   ► with Disney, people are much more aware of what Disney owns and they are with Warner

00:14:32 ◼   ► media. Um, you know, like I think that people just think of HBO as HBO and like game of

00:14:38 ◼   ► thrones is owned by the HBO company, but it turns out it's also owned by the wizard company

00:14:43 ◼   ► too. So like, you know,

00:14:44 ◼   ► yeah, I think putting HBO at the center of the platform is a smart thing. I think that

00:14:48 ◼   ► that was the, that that's, we'll see exactly what they mean by that, but like using HBO

00:14:52 ◼   ► and kind of inflating it and saying, you know, HBO is going to be the start of this and maybe

00:14:56 ◼   ► it's not all of it, but it's, it's the core and it's going to do more content. If you

00:15:00 ◼   ► view like the Disney presentation where they've got their brand tiles of like Disney and Marvel

00:15:04 ◼   ► and all that, like Warner media doing something like that, where they've got, they've got

00:15:08 ◼   ► an HBO stream and they've got a DC superhero stream and they've got some other, you know,

00:15:12 ◼   ► Harry Potter stream or whatever it is, however they want to put that together, you gotta

00:15:16 ◼   ► take advantage of your brands and your intellectual property. And the most powerful part of the

00:15:21 ◼   ► Warner media kind of content development, uh, world is HBO. HBO is at the center of

00:15:28 ◼   ► it. So they are leaning into that, which is interesting. Of course, a lot of people have

00:15:32 ◼   ► left HBO because it's not going to be the old HBO. It's going to be this new kind of,

00:15:36 ◼   ► you know, higher volume content HBO, but, uh, it's still the center of their strategy

00:15:41 ◼   ► and it should be.

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00:18:38 ◼   ► So Jason, you wrote an article on Macworld last week where this quote comes from, which

00:18:45 ◼   ► I enjoy very much. These past months I've noticed something strange creeping into my

00:18:49 ◼   ► thoughts occasionally while I sit at my desk working on my iMac Pro. iOS does this better.

00:18:57 ◼   ► Shock horror. Heresy. So what's going on here Jason Snell? You know, finder windows is where

00:19:06 ◼   ► it all started. It started in the finder windows. I want you to know, I'll get into this a little

00:19:09 ◼   ► later on, but you've infected my brain now with this technology. I heard from some of

00:19:18 ◼   ► my friends who are long time Mac users who are like, "Mmm, what are you doing?" I can

00:19:22 ◼   ► only imagine this upset quite a lot of people. But you know, and as I'm writing it I'm thinking,

00:19:26 ◼   ► does this come across as one of those things where a columnist says something inflammatory

00:19:30 ◼   ► just to get attention? And the answer is, I kind of don't want your attention. I'm just

00:19:35 ◼   ► writing about this because it actually happened to me. It's literally, that is the story here.

00:19:40 ◼   ► I am working in the finder and I've got windows open and some windows are behind other windows

00:19:45 ◼   ► and then I realize that I've got eight of the same window open for the same folder,

00:19:49 ◼   ► which I was going to put in to mention how the old finder wouldn't let you do that. And

00:19:52 ◼   ► then John Siracusa sent me a note and said, "Something something spatial finder?" And I

00:19:57 ◼   ► was like, "Yes, I almost went there." And I decided, "No, no, no, no, no. I'm not going

00:20:02 ◼   ► to go back to the past." But I had that moment where I'm like, "Okay, I'm going to open this

00:20:05 ◼   ► window and I'm going to go to this folder and I'm going to make a new finder window and

00:20:08 ◼   ► I'm going to click on this thing in the sidebar and it's going to go to this other folder

00:20:11 ◼   ► somewhere else and I'm going to move the files over and then I need to get this file out

00:20:14 ◼   ► of the downloads folder and I'll open that and all that." And I thought, "This is kind

00:20:18 ◼   ► of silly, isn't it?" Like, I get why I need to do that sometimes and I've got workflows

00:20:22 ◼   ► that have built up over years in terms of this stuff. But I had that moment where I

00:20:26 ◼   ► thought, like, on my iPad, I'm in an app, I'm in like OneWriter and I swipe from the

00:20:32 ◼   ► left side and it shows me my little stories folder in Dropbox where all my stories are

00:20:36 ◼   ► and I pick one or I press the plus button and it makes a new one in that folder and

00:20:39 ◼   ► I give it a name. And on the Mac, it's sort of like, you know, some of this is also habit.

00:20:46 ◼   ► Like I could go to BBEdit and press open and use default folder to set like the stories

00:20:52 ◼   ► folder to be my default folder and set the window to be the right width and look the

00:20:55 ◼   ► way I want and do the same thing. I could do that more or less, but the way I've been

00:21:01 ◼   ► trained to use the Mac is go to the finder, open a window, navigate to the right folder

00:21:05 ◼   ► and then create a document or open a document that's in there. And it was just a little

00:21:10 ◼   ► moment where I thought why—I wanted to ask myself, because I write about this, I wanted

00:21:14 ◼   ► to ask myself and talk about it, why do I feel this way? Let's explore this. And I was

00:21:23 ◼   ► thinking, I think iOS is the reason. I think this is an example where I—without saying

00:21:29 ◼   ► that I think iOS is initial extreme concept of files not existing, that was too much,

00:21:37 ◼   ► too much. But I get the idea that maybe something we said earlier about old technology, right,

00:21:44 ◼   ► and how Apple hopefully could come up with something better than Apple events, which

00:21:49 ◼   ► they invented in 1991. I had that moment where I thought, ah, this is really a fundamental,

00:21:57 ◼   ► brilliant concept from 1984. But, you know, I'm—now it's 2019 and I'm still opening

00:22:05 ◼   ► finder windows and moving things around. And there are a lot of parts of my job where I

00:22:12 ◼   ► feel like an app-based context makes more sense than a file-based context. And some

00:22:18 ◼   ► of this is me and it's not the system, some of this is me. And Apple has definitely tried

00:22:21 ◼   ► to push a lot of its apps to be more app-based and not finder-based in terms of how you use

00:22:27 ◼   ► them. That's why Logic and Final Cut store things in packages and, you know, GarageBand

00:22:33 ◼   ► does that too. And there's a lot going on there and iCloud Drive tries to push you in

00:22:37 ◼   ► this direction. But I just—I don't know, I had that moment where I thought, oh, I prefer

00:22:44 ◼   ► the fact that iOS kind of gives me the files that I want in the context of the app I'm

00:22:50 ◼   ► using. And if I really need to go and dig around with files in the file system, I'll

00:22:56 ◼   ► open the Files app or the Dropbox app or whatever. And it was just—it was a—it was an interesting

00:23:03 ◼   ► kind of like moment of realization that I'm not—something happened where I do not take

00:23:13 ◼   ► the conventions of the Mac for granted in the same way that I used to because I'm using

00:23:18 ◼   ► iOS so much that it's changed the way I think about some of this stuff. Not saying like

00:23:22 ◼   ► the Mac is bad and that iOS is good, it's way more nuanced than that, but saying that

00:23:27 ◼   ► some of the assumptions I made about how I use my computer are changing.

00:23:33 ◼   ► I am definitely in the mindset of preferring the app-centric model of files and how you

00:23:43 ◼   ► manage your computer life. Because I think of my work as happening in places. There are

00:23:49 ◼   ► apps and tools that I need when I'm in a certain mode. And I think more easily in that

00:23:55 ◼   ► way than considering which document do I need to find in which folder structure to begin

00:24:01 ◼   ► my work right now. I am much more of the idea of going here. And you mentioned that you

00:24:07 ◼   ► reference OneWriter, which is where you write a lot of your stuff on iOS, right? You open

00:24:12 ◼   ► that app and now you're in writing mode as opposed to like, "Let me go into Dropbox

00:24:19 ◼   ► through six different nested folders to get the file that I need to open OneWriter with."

00:24:26 ◼   ► And it's just like a different—and I don't think either of us is saying like one is right

00:24:30 ◼   ► and one is wrong. It's just like a different way of thinking. But it's interesting to

00:24:36 ◼   ► me that you have changed your thinking having used the Mac for longer than me. I did find

00:24:43 ◼   ► this funny actually. Like Casey on ATP referred to me as a new Mac user.

00:24:49 ◼   ► New Mac user, yeah. I've been using the Mac for nearly 15 years.

00:24:56 ◼   ► Welcome.

00:24:57 ◼   ► As long as him, right? Which is kind of funny. I think me and Casey—actually I've been

00:25:02 ◼   ► using the Mac for longer than Casey because Casey's first Mac was the white MacBook.

00:25:08 ◼   ► I had the Intel iMac. So I am a longer time Mac user than number one upgrade in Casey

00:25:15 ◼   ► List. But I'm considered a new Mac user because I am not like deep into the terminal.

00:25:21 ◼   ► Like I am just like a regular—

00:25:22 ◼   ► You're of the new generation. You're one of these kids today.

00:25:25 ◼   ► Yeah, who uses iOS.

00:25:28 ◼   ► With their iPads and their iPhones.

00:25:29 ◼   ► With their apps and like forgetting about their files.

00:25:31 ◼   ► And their rock music and whatever.

00:25:33 ◼   ► But I have an actual example of something that happened to me today after preparing

00:25:38 ◼   ► for the show. I was on my Mac and I was working on a contract in Pages and I needed to sign

00:25:43 ◼   ► the contract. So I've made it in Pages and I needed to sign it before I could send it.

00:25:49 ◼   ► So I had to go into Pages. I exported it as a PDF, saved it to my desktop. Then I had

00:25:54 ◼   ► to open a Finder window, go to the desktop, right click the file, open in, choose PDF

00:26:00 ◼   ► pen, sign it, save it, open up my email app and send it. On iOS, I'm in Pages, I click

00:26:08 ◼   ► share, I choose PDF. It then gives me an open in dialogue immediately. I just tap on PDF

00:26:14 ◼   ► pen and then I sign it and save it. Like there's none of this middle dance of like, "Where

00:26:19 ◼   ► do you want to save the file?" Right? Like there's none of that. Like it just goes from

00:26:22 ◼   ► app to app and I really like that. And I know that sometimes on iOS, the share extension

00:26:29 ◼   ► stuff can be clunky, but when it works, which for most of the stuff I do works great, like

00:26:34 ◼   ► for that exact type of thing of like taking a document, turn it into a PDF, send it somewhere

00:26:39 ◼   ► or whatever. That's way nicer to me because it's just going from app to app. Like the

00:26:44 ◼   ► idea of me saving it to the desktop and then opening it again somewhere else is a completely

00:26:50 ◼   ► unnecessary step for me to have performed the work that I wanted to perform.

00:26:53 ◼   ► And there are issues here, although Apple has made some changes in iOS where now you

00:26:56 ◼   ► can sort of like open a file directly in from an app and it opens it directly. It's not

00:27:01 ◼   ► creating a, you know, another version of it.

00:27:03 ◼   ► Yeah, which is great.

00:27:04 ◼   ► Which is the way it always used to be.

00:27:05 ◼   ► Yeah, that's really good.

00:27:06 ◼   ► So you can work on the same file and move it around between apps. And that's the kind

00:27:10 ◼   ► of thing that, you know, iOS is coming out of its extreme origin of no files and that's

00:27:16 ◼   ► not, that doesn't work either. I was thinking about like Logic or Final Cut. Logic is a

00:27:22 ◼   ► good example because I added a lot of podcasts in Logic and I also added podcasts in Fair

00:27:26 ◼   ► ight on iOS where they have a package format, which I don't use probably because in part,

00:27:32 ◼   ► it's part of my workflow, but part of it is also that I'm very file oriented because it's

00:27:35 ◼   ► the Finder and it's a Mac and all of that. But like dragging the best way to put a bunch

00:27:41 ◼   ► of files into a Logic project is to open the Logic project and then open the Finder and

00:27:46 ◼   ► then drag the files in one by one to write where you want them to go. And Logic, as far

00:27:50 ◼   ► as I can tell, doesn't even have a batch import feature. It has an import file feature that

00:27:56 ◼   ► lets you pick a single file. So, and that's not better. So the Finder ends up being, and

00:28:04 ◼   ► I think maybe this is the root of it is, interacting with lots of files in lots of complicated

00:28:08 ◼   ► ways on the Mac. Most apps are just like, just use the Finder. Like don't involve me.

00:28:14 ◼   ► Drag and drop works, drag the files in. I don't need to know about it. Whereas on the

00:28:20 ◼   ► iPad, if I transfer files over and I'm in a project, Fairight will bring up a little

00:28:27 ◼   ► side panel with all my files and I can drag them out one by one. And they're, you know,

00:28:32 ◼   ► basically I airdrop those files to Fairight, not to a holding folder. So then they're in

00:28:37 ◼   ► Fairight's storage area and then I'm dragging them into the project and then they're in

00:28:41 ◼   ► the project. And I think that's better. I think that's a better approach. And I know

00:28:45 ◼   ► it's different and what, you know, these platforms are colliding. So part of my thought here

00:28:52 ◼   ► is just Apple is trying to push the Mac to be a little more app-centric in terms of documents.

00:28:57 ◼   ► Apple is also trying to push iOS to be a little less app-centric. And I think that's good

00:29:02 ◼   ► because I think there is a place that is more than what the Mac does today, but also more

00:29:07 ◼   ► than what iOS does today. That is probably the better place for users because the, you

00:29:13 ◼   ► know how you and I go back and forth about things like to-do lists and project management

00:29:18 ◼   ► apps and all that kind of stuff where my big concern is always the danger of becoming—Merlin

00:29:24 ◼   ► has talked about this a lot—it's the danger of becoming somebody who's a professional

00:29:27 ◼   ► organized person who doesn't end up doing their job because they're spending too much

00:29:32 ◼   ► time getting organized and not actually doing the work. And that's always my concern about

00:29:36 ◼   ► putting any time into kind of like organizational stuff is this is time away from the work.

00:29:41 ◼   ► I should just do the work. And you take that to an extreme and it's ridiculous too because

00:29:45 ◼   ► you're completely disorganized and you can't do the work. So you have to find that medium.

00:29:49 ◼   ► But anyway, this is a little bit like how I am thinking about like the argument about

00:29:53 ◼   ► the Finder being the center of the Mac is you end up being like in the early days of

00:29:58 ◼   ► the Mac custom folders, custom folder icons and colors and all this stuff was like a huge

00:30:03 ◼   ► part of your identity as a Mac user was like the file system was your identity as a Mac

00:30:08 ◼   ► user. And from a little bit of a remove I look at and I think it's kind of ridiculous,

00:30:14 ◼   ► right? Like managing my files and folders, it's—I used to file my email in specific

00:30:20 ◼   ► folders and now I just have an archive in Gmail and I search for it. Like I gave up

00:30:24 ◼   ► the idea of creating these archives because it seemed like a waste of time. And I feel

00:30:30 ◼   ► like maybe fiddly—when I talk to people about the Finder a lot of times it's sort

00:30:35 ◼   ► of like, "Oh, but I need to put these files in these places and I do a lot of filing of

00:30:38 ◼   ► my files and I put them into these places where I can get them later." And you know,

00:30:43 ◼   ► sometimes if you're working on projects with co-workers and things like that, sometimes

00:30:46 ◼   ► that is necessary.

00:30:47 ◼   ► A hundred percent. A hundred percent. I wonder if a lot of the fiddling around with files

00:30:52 ◼   ► in the Finder that Mac users do is just because it's the center of your world and not because

00:30:59 ◼   ► you really need to be spending time fiddling around with files and folders. I think it's

00:31:04 ◼   ► unnecessary.

00:31:05 ◼   ► You know, the underpinnings of it, the stuff that goes into the file system on the Mac,

00:31:11 ◼   ► by and large, unless you're using something like Dropbox, it's not collaborative. So the

00:31:16 ◼   ► reason I mention this is we use Google Docs all the time, right? I have no idea how my

00:31:21 ◼   ► Google Docs are filed because it's not important. Because the system is collaborative at its

00:31:27 ◼   ► core. It's up to me where I find it. It's up to you where you find it. And we just deal

00:31:31 ◼   ► with it that way. It's not about having this nested file system of show notes documents.

00:31:36 ◼   ► Yeah, and it's very much like when I went from Eudora to Gmail and just said, "You

00:31:41 ◼   ► know what? I don't need to create a complicated series of mail filters that put every message

00:31:45 ◼   ► that I get in my history in a very particular mailbox for me to retrieve later." Because

00:31:51 ◼   ► technology has reached the point where I can just say, "Hey, where's that email about this?"

00:31:55 ◼   ► And it shows up. And I don't need to know any more than that. And it's a different way

00:32:00 ◼   ► of doing it. And it's, you know, changing the way you work is hard because it incurs

00:32:05 ◼   ► a cost. And it goes back to the idea of not wanting to waste my time doing things that

00:32:13 ◼   ► aren't my work. Well, making a change in how you work is time spent that isn't your work.

00:32:18 ◼   ► And I get that that's a hard thing to do. But in a moment like this where I've, you

00:32:23 ◼   ► know, using iOS has changed my perspective a little bit, I look at it and I go, "Oh,

00:32:26 ◼   ► wow, that's a lot of busy work just managing where things go." And yeah, my Google Drive

00:32:32 ◼   ► is not particularly well organized. In fact, the only way that my Google Drive is organized

00:32:37 ◼   ► is mostly about permissions because you can set like a folder to have specific share permissions

00:32:43 ◼   ► in Google Drive. And then if you put a file in it, it inherits the folders permissions

00:32:47 ◼   ► like that. But that's a function. That's like, "Oh, Dan and Steven can see the Six Colors

00:32:53 ◼   ► Magazine folder." That's a different kind of thing that's not really organizing the

00:33:00 ◼   ► files. And yeah, and I also know that some people are like, "What do you mean you're

00:33:03 ◼   ► not organizing your files? You've got to organize your files." It's like, I get it, but I don't.

00:33:09 ◼   ► Honestly, I need to organize them in very specific ways for projects and things, and

00:33:14 ◼   ► that's it. And if Logic or Final Cut, which actually does do this, did all that work for

00:33:21 ◼   ► me, then I would really not have to do it.

00:33:23 ◼   ► I do want to just mention files, the Files app on iOS. It's not better than the Finder.

00:33:30 ◼   ► No, it's not good.

00:33:31 ◼   ► Let's not get this confused, right? Like when we're saying here that like managing files

00:33:35 ◼   ► on iOS is better, it's like the difference in the kind of the ideological view of how

00:33:42 ◼   ► you work, right? The Files app sucks.

00:33:44 ◼   ► Right, right. No, if it's a shootout between Files and the Finder, like no, the Finder

00:33:48 ◼   ► is a spectacularly powerful tool for moving files and folders around on your computer.

00:33:55 ◼   ► And Files.app is a barely like a 2.0 kind of product that's got all sorts of quirks,

00:34:02 ◼   ► and it's better than what was there before, which was nothing.

00:34:05 ◼   ► Well, the iCloud Drive app.

00:34:07 ◼   ► Well, the iCloud Drive app was the 1.0, right? And Files is the 2.0. But it's like, it's

00:34:12 ◼   ► not, it's not great. And iOS's approach, I guess what I'm saying is iOS having this document-centric

00:34:21 ◼   ► approach I think is smart if they can find lots of good ways to integrate the concept

00:34:28 ◼   ► of files when necessary. Because there are times when you want to say, "I need this file

00:34:31 ◼   ► from my archive. I need this file that I worked on. I want to make sure this file is backed

00:34:35 ◼   ► up. I need to send this to somebody." There are things like that. That's why Files needs

00:34:38 ◼   ► to be better. But I think coming from the approach iOS is coming from, I'm seeing the

00:34:45 ◼   ► benefit of that in a way that is harder to see on the Mac due to a mixture of things,

00:34:51 ◼   ► due to a mixture of assumptions based on like how the Mac has always behaved and my history

00:34:55 ◼   ► as a user and how a lot of apps choose to interact with the file system on the Mac.

00:35:00 ◼   ► Because on the Mac, you've got this great file utility that's at the very center of

00:35:04 ◼   ► everything. And so you use that. If you're a Mac app, you use that. Now with Marzipan,

00:35:14 ◼   ► what happens there? That's a whole other issue because those apps are all being designed

00:35:18 ◼   ► to be app-centric and not document-centric. So you start with the app and then the documents

00:35:21 ◼   ► kind of come along for the ride, which is the opposite of how the Mac... The classic

00:35:25 ◼   ► way you worked on a productivity app on the Mac back in the day was that you found the

00:35:31 ◼   ► document you were working on and double-clicked on it. And then it opened an app that opened

00:35:36 ◼   ► the document. That's the exact opposite of how it works on iOS, right? You open the app

00:35:44 ◼   ► and then find the documents that belong to that app. And there's something to be said

00:35:49 ◼   ► for that in a lot of contexts, not all contexts. But anyway, that was my journey, Myke. I feel

00:35:55 ◼   ► like I've stepped outside of my computer history just enough with using iOS in addition to

00:36:02 ◼   ► macOS that it lets me see some of my habits and some of the assumptions of the Mac interface

00:36:09 ◼   ► in a way that I hadn't before.

00:36:10 ◼   ► Well, this is what lies before us over the next 12 to 18 months is thinking in these

00:36:16 ◼   ► terms. It's very different now, right? Like we are moving, you know, whether happy or

00:36:22 ◼   ► not into a kind of merged future. And it's going to require a lot of soul searching for

00:36:30 ◼   ► users of Apple's products to kind of work out where they want to sit on this side of

00:36:37 ◼   ► Marsapan. You know, like it's going to be interesting. I think it's interesting. We'll

00:36:46 ◼   ► see how it ends up shaking out.

00:36:48 ◼   ► Yeah, it's a lot of design decisions that Apple is going to have to make. And it's going

00:36:51 ◼   ► to be weird. Like, as we said before, you said it two weeks ago, I think. It's going

00:36:56 ◼   ► to be weird. Like, let's underline that. It is going to be weird. Even if Apple does a

00:37:00 ◼   ► great job and executes this incredibly well, it's still going to be weird because you've

00:37:04 ◼   ► got a whole class of apps that are not like the apps that have existed on the Mac. And

00:37:08 ◼   ► they're going to have, you know, if, if, uh, Gee Rambo and Steve Tron Smith are to be believed,

00:37:13 ◼   ► like it's going to be more like classic in some ways where like there's going to be a

00:37:17 ◼   ► separate system folder with the Marsapan stuff in it like there is on Mojave. And that's

00:37:21 ◼   ► not the system folder that the Mac apps use. It's the system folder that the Marsapan apps

00:37:25 ◼   ► use. It's going to be weird even if they execute it well. And then we're going to go through

00:37:29 ◼   ► this process, but it's also kind of fascinating to watch how it might evolve. Um, because

00:37:35 ◼   ► I feel like the decision that Apple made when they kind of made their change about how they

00:37:40 ◼   ► were viewing the Mac, um, was on one level a, be careful what you wish for from, for

00:37:46 ◼   ► Mac users, because I think Apple pivoted from saying the Mac is a legacy platform that we

00:37:54 ◼   ► want to keep around and keep the users on it happy, but it's not the future. It's just

00:37:59 ◼   ► going to stay the way it is. And they pivoted from that to, all right, we're going to drag

00:38:04 ◼   ► the Mac into the present. And this kind of stuff is how they're doing that. And if you're

00:38:08 ◼   ► a long time Mac user, you will be uncomfortable. And I will be too, because I am one of you.

00:38:14 ◼   ► I will also be uncomfortable because the Mac is going to have to change in ways and it's

00:38:18 ◼   ► going to be weird. So that's the bottom line.

00:38:20 ◼   ► It's going to be really strange to open some applications and be like, you don't look right.

00:38:25 ◼   ► Like that's what it's going to feel like for a while. You know, like Steve Trout and Smith

00:38:30 ◼   ► was, was tweeting over the weekend and he was kind of just like, I wouldn't say call

00:38:34 ◼   ► to arms as such, but like, you know, like, Hey, if you are a developer and you think

00:38:40 ◼   ► you are going to move into this, like, because he says like, I am, you know, I'm going to

00:38:44 ◼   ► move all of my apps to Mars and Pan because it's what I want to do. Let me know. And I

00:38:47 ◼   ► saw, we're going to talk about overcast in a bit, but I saw Marco Arment say like, my

00:38:51 ◼   ► plan is day one. Like I want to have overcast on the Mac day one. It's going to look so

00:38:57 ◼   ► strange, right? To like be on my iMac and click the overcast. It's going to look like,

00:39:04 ◼   ► I reckon basically the same, I would assume my iPad app. And that's going to be very,

00:39:09 ◼   ► very disorientating. So that's why it's going to be weird. That is, I think this is going

00:39:16 ◼   ► to be, as we ramp up towards the summer of fun, we're in the weird time now. Yeah. Or

00:39:23 ◼   ► is the fall the weird time when it ships? So it's summer of fun and then the autumn

00:39:26 ◼   ► of weird. The autumn of weird. We'll find out. All right. Today's show is also brought

00:39:30 ◼   ► to you by our friends over at Luna display, the makers of the hardware solution that turns

00:39:35 ◼   ► your iPad into a wireless display for your Mac. Meaning you'll have a second display

00:39:39 ◼   ► that is super portable with basically zero lag and stunning image quality. Setting up

00:39:44 ◼   ► extra screens can be a fiddly and frustrating experience, but Luna display couldn't be easier.

00:39:50 ◼   ► You just plug a lovely dongle, whether you're in town or you're at the beach, you know,

00:39:54 ◼   ► doesn't matter. You just plug this dongle into your Mac and you're good to go. Everything

00:39:58 ◼   ► works over wifi if you're in regular dongle town. But if you're at the dongle town surf

00:40:02 ◼   ► club, you can do it with a USB connection if there's no wifi connection for you. How

00:40:06 ◼   ► perfect is that? So you might be traveling, you can just use a cable instead and you still

00:40:10 ◼   ► have the ability to use your Luna display to screens. You can have your laptop, you

00:40:15 ◼   ► can have your desktop and your iPad to the side and you can use it just like an external

00:40:19 ◼   ► monitor. It supports external keyboards, touch interactions in the Apple pencil. I will say

00:40:24 ◼   ► you mentioned in your article about touchscreen Macs. Um, and it made me think of the fact

00:40:30 ◼   ► that I think the Mac with an Apple pencil is fantastic because I do this all the time

00:40:36 ◼   ► now. Like that is the easiest way and I'm using my Luna display to get all the touch

00:40:41 ◼   ► interactions that I want, but it works perfectly. Like I really like being able to use like

00:40:48 ◼   ► my Apple pencil in pixel mater on my Mac over Luna display, which I do quite a lot. The

00:40:53 ◼   ► art, the, uh, the, the, the banner image that I made, like the kind of, of our merchandise

00:40:58 ◼   ► is in our show notes and we tweeted it and stuff. I made that in pixel mater on my Mac,

00:41:03 ◼   ► on my iPad with Luna display and my Apple pencil because pixel mate on the Mac is better

00:41:10 ◼   ► than pixel mate or an iOS, which breaks my heart, but it just is. It's easier to use.

00:41:14 ◼   ► But anyway, like you can do all of this stuff. I do all the time. Uh, they also recently

00:41:18 ◼   ► Luna displays always having a bunch of updates to make the system better, including the new

00:41:21 ◼   ► liquid video engine, which brings significantly reduced latency and faster screen refresh

00:41:26 ◼   ► rate, which just makes it even better than ever before. Listeners at this show can get

00:41:30 ◼   ► a exclusive 10% discount on Luna display. Just go to L U N A D I S P L A Y.com, Luna

00:41:37 ◼   ► display.com. Use the promo code upgrade at checkout. That is Luna display.com promo code

00:41:43 ◼   ► upgrade at checkout. Go there right now and upgrade your setup. You're going to love it.

00:41:48 ◼   ► Our thanks to Luna display for their support of this show and all of relay FM. So we mentioned

00:41:54 ◼   ► overcast a moment ago, uh, over the weekend, uh, Marco shocked the world and introduced

00:41:59 ◼   ► a new feature to overcast. Um, about basically with the idea to share clips, to be able to

00:42:07 ◼   ► have you listening to it, to an episode of one of your favorite shows on overcast and

00:42:10 ◼   ► you're like, Oh, that was a good little clip. Previously, what you would do is you grabbed

00:42:14 ◼   ► the URL, right? And you'd just tweet about it and be like, Oh, this is a really good

00:42:18 ◼   ► episode, but there's no context there. There's nothing, there's no, cause it's so difficult

00:42:24 ◼   ► to share this stuff. Or maybe you'd, you'd get a timestamp link in overcast and you tweet

00:42:28 ◼   ► that, but not everybody uses overcast or any other app that might do this. Right. So like

00:42:33 ◼   ► then you kind of locked in and you might, you might not click it because you use pocket

00:42:38 ◼   ► costs. So like what uses this to you? You can't do anything with that. And it's a weird

00:42:41 ◼   ► context where it's loading a webpage and then it has to load the whole file and wait until

00:42:45 ◼   ► it gets to the, you know, where it can load. Your web browser has to load it to get to

00:42:49 ◼   ► the time code and that if it's dynamic ad insertion, the time code may be, may have

00:42:53 ◼   ► drifted and then you're not even sharing that moment that you want to share. So Marco has

00:42:57 ◼   ► created some new UI inside of overcast where you can, if you listen to a show, you can

00:43:03 ◼   ► press the share button and you can select a clip to create a clip and you can create

00:43:07 ◼   ► a clip of up to one minute in length that can be audio only or video in horizontal,

00:43:13 ◼   ► vertical or square formats. And it uses the show artwork and it has like some animation

00:43:17 ◼   ► going on and you can choose, I love this, you can choose to add overcast branding and

00:43:23 ◼   ► Apple podcast branding or no branding at all. That is a Marco move. I think if I've ever

00:43:30 ◼   ► seen one that like he will just let you not put his branding in there. Right. We'll get

00:43:34 ◼   ► into that a little bit more in a minute because I think it's actually pretty important when

00:43:38 ◼   ► talking about this whole thing in general. This was all inspired by a thing that my Relay

00:43:44 ◼   ► FM co founder Stephen Hackett said on an interview show that he was on called Unco. It's actually

00:43:50 ◼   ► a really good interview, the whole thing kind of like Stephen's thoughts on podcasting,

00:43:53 ◼   ► its history and all that kind of stuff. But Stephen was talking about the virality of

00:43:58 ◼   ► podcasts that it's super hard to share clips that might give people a taste of the show

00:44:03 ◼   ► that someone's talking about. People tend to just share links and texts and that kind

00:44:07 ◼   ► of stuff. And as a podcast producer, it is such a pain to do this kind of stuff with

00:44:12 ◼   ► the tools that currently exist. Right. Like I would open like Final Cut. Right. And drop

00:44:17 ◼   ► everything in just for the sake of creating a 25 second clip that I could show on Instagram.

00:44:22 ◼   ► Like it's too difficult. But this gives me as well as a producer of shows the ability

00:44:27 ◼   ► to grab a clip that I would want to share as well as like and if you think like if it

00:44:32 ◼   ► would be too much hassle for me to do this, no listener is ever going to do this. Right.

00:44:37 ◼   ► Like you're not going to go to the effort of like creating a video project to share

00:44:42 ◼   ► a 20 second clip of a show that you enjoyed. And I don't know about you, Jason, but I've

00:44:47 ◼   ► been seeing these clips all over my timeline on Twitter this weekend. And I have loved

00:44:52 ◼   ► it because I've seen people sharing stuff that they like. I've had listeners of my shows

00:44:57 ◼   ► tagging me and clips that they've shared. And I've really enjoyed actually going back

00:45:01 ◼   ► and listening to these like 20 second random things from like years ago. You know, like

00:45:05 ◼   ► someone went back to the beginning of the pen addict when me and Brad talk about the

00:45:08 ◼   ► fact that we don't like fountain pens that much. Like that is the kind of stuff that's

00:45:12 ◼   ► like popping up. And like so I want to use this feature to promote my shows. Like I'm

00:45:17 ◼   ► trying to get into that mindset a little bit more and I hope to see people sharing this

00:45:21 ◼   ► stuff too. What did you think about this feature? I well first off it's funny because as a beta

00:45:27 ◼   ► tester of Overcast, I think it's funny that he didn't beta test this feature. No, that's

00:45:31 ◼   ► what I mean. He shocked the world. Nobody nobody knew about it except Steve himself.

00:45:36 ◼   ► He didn't want to put it through the approval process for test flight. So he just did it

00:45:40 ◼   ► himself. I think it's I think it's a great move. I think this is you know, I I think

00:45:48 ◼   ► he's trying to keep it within fair use which is why it's a single like minute clip because

00:45:53 ◼   ► he wants this to be a viral thing that promotes podcasts. I think he's run up against some

00:46:00 ◼   ► challenges in in terms of how iOS sharing works where it's not as straightforward as

00:46:09 ◼   ► it should be like you can share the video but it doesn't come with a link to the podcast

00:46:13 ◼   ► because it's just a video. Yeah, and so then you need to like copy the Overcast link and

00:46:20 ◼   ► then copy I kind of want him and I know he probably can't do this. But what I really

00:46:25 ◼   ► want is like a video share that also puts something on the clipboard that's like the

00:46:30 ◼   ► name of the episode and a link to the podcast or something like that something a little

00:46:34 ◼   ► richer than what is currently there, but I know that there are a lot of complexities

00:46:39 ◼   ► in that situation but at the bottom of this, you know, he's trying to solve a problem that

00:46:44 ◼   ► we've all been moaning about for a long time, which is it's very hard to share to really

00:46:49 ◼   ► share a great moment in a podcast and have it, you know, have it kind of go viral instead

00:46:55 ◼   ► I see these links all the time where people are like, oh, this was a really great moment

00:47:00 ◼   ► about this thing. So you should listen to my podcast. It's like, okay, I am now going

00:47:04 ◼   ► to download an entire episode of your podcast. That's a harder sell not sight unseen but

00:47:10 ◼   ► like here on heard. Yeah here on heard exactly right. So instead I get to listen to a clip

00:47:15 ◼   ► up to a minute and think oh, that's really interesting or funny or whatever and maybe

00:47:21 ◼   ► I'll go listen to it. But also it allows fans listeners of podcast to share favorite moments

00:47:27 ◼   ► and that's also a lot of fun. So I hope it I hope it takes off and I hope more podcast

00:47:32 ◼   ► apps do it. Yes. This is what I wanted to talk about right the idea of this how these

00:47:36 ◼   ► tools are for podcasting in general because there are a lot of like proprietary systems

00:47:43 ◼   ► like platforms and stuff like that that will that can generate these things for you, but

00:47:47 ◼   ► you have to work with them. You have a host of them. I have an arrangement with them like

00:47:50 ◼   ► you'd be a part of this like big huge CMS network thing and that's not tenable for most

00:47:57 ◼   ► people right like it's requiring way too much and I think that this stuff is really useful

00:48:09 ◼   ► when it is available to everybody right like I hope the other third party apps find a way

00:48:15 ◼   ► to make features like this for themselves. Like I am obviously a huge fan of overcast

00:48:19 ◼   ► and Marco was one of my closest friends. So I want him to get more customers because of

00:48:22 ◼   ► this right so I'm happy he did it first for that reason, but I also hope now that the

00:48:28 ◼   ► success of this feature will prompt other app makers to do it too because then it's

00:48:32 ◼   ► good for everyone and like this goes back to kind of what I was saying about like the

00:48:36 ◼   ► branding thing the fact that Marco will allow you to put branding in or not is that I feel

00:48:42 ◼   ► like that whilst he is very happy to have it out first would also encourage other people

00:48:48 ◼   ► to do this because it is good for the overall podcasting ecosystem that we all seem to care

00:48:55 ◼   ► so strongly about like and it was like a quote from Marco's kind of announcement posted this

00:49:01 ◼   ► that I wanted to read where he said for podcasting to remain open and free we must not leave

00:49:05 ◼   ► major shortcomings for proprietary lockdown services to exploit conversely the more we

00:49:09 ◼   ► strengthen the open podcast ecosystem with content functionality and ease of use the

00:49:14 ◼   ► larger the barrier becomes that any walled garden must overcome to be compelling and

00:49:18 ◼   ► like I you know this is why like I am happy that an app that is as popular as overcast

00:49:28 ◼   ► is run by someone whose podcast politics align with my own because you know it makes me happy

00:49:41 ◼   ► that someone like Marco is I mean this is very we're inside baseball right now but this

00:49:46 ◼   ► is like coming in from a weekend of this this this startup called luminary which is like

00:49:52 ◼   ► a closed platform system that is that really upset a lot of podcasters because they said

00:49:59 ◼   ► podcast didn't need ads and they are a system where it is a regular app but it also has

00:50:06 ◼   ► this paid tier so it's a free app where you can listen to in theory can listen to any

00:50:11 ◼   ► podcast then as a paid tier where they have a bunch of stuff which is exclusive for them

00:50:16 ◼   ► and they will kind of when they first came onto the scene their whole PR was about like

00:50:19 ◼   ► oh we're better because our shows don't have ads and podcasts don't need ads and they just

00:50:23 ◼   ► need our system instead and then there's been this whole furor over the weekend of just

00:50:28 ◼   ► a million basically a million different things that luminary has done wrong throughout their

00:50:32 ◼   ► launch and the way that they're communicating and so after something like this to see a

00:50:37 ◼   ► tool like this and you know for it coming from Marco is like I consider it a good thing

00:50:43 ◼   ► I personally am not worried at all about the future of our business here I have seen and

00:50:54 ◼   ► maybe being naive but I've been doing this only 10 years and I've seen a million things

00:50:59 ◼   ► come and go that are going to destroy podcasting especially over the last few years and I have

00:51:07 ◼   ► seen every single one of these make absolutely no dent in anything maybe at some point it's

00:51:14 ◼   ► going to happen but I don't think that we are any closer to the heat death of podcasting

00:51:19 ◼   ► now than we were five years ago like I just don't think that it is significantly closer

00:51:24 ◼   ► like the part of the industry that we're in is still growing you know like I don't really

00:51:33 ◼   ► know how much people want to hear about this sort of stuff but like advertising revenue

00:51:37 ◼   ► is going up and if you're in the right places at the right times and you're doing the right

00:51:41 ◼   ► things like this business can still be an extremely viable one if you do it in the right

00:51:48 ◼   ► ways I feel like the right model here is to look at the web and say what's great about

00:51:55 ◼   ► the web is that the web browsers are just part of the landscape of your device everybody's

00:52:00 ◼   ► got web browsers and the web browsers all look all work on the web and if you want to

00:52:04 ◼   ► give away things on the web and have advertising you can do that and if you want to charge

00:52:08 ◼   ► for content on the web you can do that and that the way forward for podcasting is probably

00:52:15 ◼   ► a system and we kind of already have it but it could be better but it's probably just

00:52:20 ◼   ► embracing open podcast standards along with a an easy for users way to say I have paid

00:52:29 ◼   ► for this like you do in the web so authentication and you some podcast apps support authentication

00:52:37 ◼   ► now where you can put in a username and a password and get to a password protected feed

00:52:41 ◼   ► or a user and password protected feed that is what open podcasting is kind of lacking

00:52:46 ◼   ► right now is a unified way of doing that where if you try to subscribe to this podcast a

00:52:53 ◼   ► put in your username and password prompt comes up and then you do that and every podcast

00:52:57 ◼   ► app supports it.

00:52:58 ◼   ► Right this you're saying like if if what you want to do is have some method of podcasting

00:53:04 ◼   ► which is paid.

00:53:06 ◼   ► Right because one of the ways that the one of the reasons this is happening is because

00:53:09 ◼   ► if you want to charge the and build a fairly simple experience for people who want to pay

00:53:15 ◼   ► to listen to a podcast or a network of podcasts you have to build your own app basically because

00:53:21 ◼   ► it gets it's ugly it's like asking people to subscribe to a raw RSS feed URL like it

00:53:26 ◼   ► gets complicated and it's not supported the same way everywhere and that is what open

00:53:31 ◼   ► podcasting is missing that the web allows you to do because the web will let you a web

00:53:36 ◼   ► browser will let you log in and it'll let you take a cookie that says you are logged

00:53:39 ◼   ► in and then you get access to the premium content, you know, whatever it is the Wall

00:53:43 ◼   ► Street Journal New York Times the Financial Times you name it and podcasts that part is

00:53:49 ◼   ► hard right now because it didn't really get built that way and I feel like the best thing

00:53:54 ◼   ► that the open podcast community could do is try to find a way forward that lets open podcast

00:54:01 ◼   ► apps deal with subscriber content because right now you've got this weird place where

00:54:09 ◼   ► there are podcasts like luminary that are trying to podcast apps that are trying to

00:54:12 ◼   ► mix both they're trying to say well we're a podcast app plus our podcasts are in here

00:54:16 ◼   ► and that what they're trying to do is remove this barrier which is I need to switch to

00:54:23 ◼   ► a different app in order to listen to these certain kinds of podcasts that are not available

00:54:28 ◼   ► elsewhere and that and then my all my other podcasts are over here and that kind of stinks

00:54:33 ◼   ► and like audible has done that with their channels stuff and I you know I had access

00:54:40 ◼   ► to that and I basically never listened to it because it's in a different app and I don't

00:54:43 ◼   ► want to listen to my podcast in a different app that is like you know it's okay if you

00:54:50 ◼   ► want to have a separate app like audible to do audiobooks right like a separate app but

00:54:54 ◼   ► where luminary is kind of in the middle here is this they want to have it both ways they

00:54:58 ◼   ► want to they want to be part of the open podcast environment that people like and sell you

00:55:03 ◼   ► stuff and because they can't do that inside other apps they have to do it in their app

00:55:07 ◼   ► and and and I do see that as another weakness of the podcast world like I I have for because

00:55:14 ◼   ► I have podcasts that are behind a membership you know and you do too for a relay right

00:55:19 ◼   ► so there we both have have this and you know it's kind of security through obscurity it's

00:55:26 ◼   ► kind of porous it's not the best and like I could I would love it if there was an easy

00:55:31 ◼   ► way for me to just say put in your six colors or incomparable username and password and

00:55:36 ◼   ► then you get access to these podcasts on every podcast player on every platform but it doesn't

00:55:42 ◼   ► exist so I you know that that to me is a hole that I would love to see plugged somehow maybe

00:55:48 ◼   ► somebody should pull VC money into that idea well actually you know what would be really

00:55:53 ◼   ► interesting is if Apple did it did it if Apple came up with a system where Apple said from

00:55:58 ◼   ► now on the podcast app will accept this method of authentication and only this method and

00:56:04 ◼   ► we will show your authenticated podcast in the iTunes directory but mark that they're

00:56:08 ◼   ► paid only and allow previews and like if Apple built that feature out and it wasn't just

00:56:15 ◼   ► for Apple's player key point they could move the entire market to do it I feel like probably

00:56:22 ◼   ► the company close enough right now is patreon well patreon right patreon has that idea that

00:56:30 ◼   ► you're logging in and you get a URL URL it's still complicated but they could provide an

00:56:35 ◼   ► API right you know well I mean well so so wouldn't that I think it starts that would

00:56:40 ◼   ► be great it would I think Apple doing it would be the one that would push had the highest

00:56:45 ◼   ► chance but you're right patreon could could help matters too I just like Apple would be

00:56:49 ◼   ► less likely to make it open to everyone then patreon well that's I feel I feel that's the

00:56:54 ◼   ► problem is that is is that Apple wouldn't be as inclined to do that but I don't know

00:56:59 ◼   ► I mean Apple so far has not really exerted their authority in this space maybe they would

00:57:02 ◼   ► just make it really easy for you to pay for those things with Apple pay do it that way

00:57:07 ◼   ► but I don't know that is a challenge but this you know this is a whole about the lack of

00:57:12 ◼   ► virality in podcast content that Marco is trying to fill and I think it's great I mean

00:57:18 ◼   ► how many times have I had a moment where I am drawn I'm driven to tears by wacky things

00:57:23 ◼   ► happening on the flophouse and I just can't I just can't share it like I can't share when

00:57:31 ◼   ► Stewart doesn't understand the key for Sutherland is in trapped inside the mirror at the end

00:57:35 ◼   ► of mirrors wait what come on right it's so funny what and I can't I can't share that

00:57:41 ◼   ► I can't what come on he's in a mirror like it's so funny and it's like I can't I just

00:57:48 ◼   ► can't so this gives it gives me an ability to do that that's great I hope people use

00:57:52 ◼   ► this I really really want people to use it and I'm so pleased that Marco made it I think

00:57:57 ◼   ► it's I think it's really awesome and I'm very pleased to see stuff like this exist and I

00:58:03 ◼   ► hope that more people do this I hope to see you know my hope would be like that this feature

00:58:10 ◼   ► does so well that Marco puts even more effort onto stuff like this right and and there is

00:58:16 ◼   ► a business benefit for him like a legit business benefit like it is making his app better as

00:58:21 ◼   ► well which is awesome but at the same time I think is helping something that I care a

00:58:26 ◼   ► lot about so it's definitely worth checking out and trying out if you are an overcast

00:58:31 ◼   ► user or you're not maybe you can find your favorite moments of upgrade maybe you want

00:58:36 ◼   ► to make a Twitter account which just shares our crazy conspiracy theories that we love

00:58:40 ◼   ► around here whatever you want but like I would say if you do ever share any clip of my show

00:58:47 ◼   ► please tag me in it because I like to hear what people enjoy because we get so little

00:58:53 ◼   ► feedback especially detailed feedback about like this was really funny right that you're

00:58:57 ◼   ► an audience that might laugh or scowl or whatever to what we say unless we're live you know

00:59:03 ◼   ► in the theater in Chicago or at WWDC or whatever like we don't get that feedback about like

00:59:09 ◼   ► I really like this bit it's very hard to express that because you listen to the whole podcast

00:59:13 ◼   ► you think oh wow Myke says something super smart there which makes a change I think he

00:59:18 ◼   ► should know he should know then yeah let me know but yeah so that's worth checking out

00:59:23 ◼   ► there's of course links in the show notes for you to check those stuff out show notes

00:59:28 ◼   ► are important to podcasting too in oh they are opinion not everybody agrees with links

00:59:33 ◼   ► with links today show is brought to you by hello hello make insanely comfortable buckwheat

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01:01:41 ◼   ► to hollow for their support of this show and then relay fml o you know but that that's

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01:01:53 ◼   ► stuck all right let's do some hashtag ask upgrade yeah this really needed the lasers

01:02:00 ◼   ► today because the first question is about lasers and I knew that you were not going

01:02:05 ◼   ► to give me them unless I was quiet for a long time so here we are Andrew asks does Jason

01:02:11 ◼   ► make pistol fingers or stabby pointing hands while doing lasers no no first off fingers

01:02:19 ◼   ► don't shoot lasers okay okay they don't that's silly that's ridiculous I I just lean I lean

01:02:25 ◼   ► into the microphone and then the lasers emerge you lean in I do for lasers I get in as close

01:02:34 ◼   ► as I can to the microphone I'm actually touching the microphone with my face to get the full

01:02:40 ◼   ► laser experience oh wow yeah can you give me a laser from from regular distance oh that

01:02:48 ◼   ► sucks I don't want that right if those are garbage lasers nobody wants those lasers I

01:02:53 ◼   ► want I want lasers this is if people are gonna make clips of this is this what is this what

01:02:59 ◼   ► they're gonna make take it all back Jeff wants to know do you know of any podcast apps that

01:03:06 ◼   ► support re-listening to old shows I'm thinking of something where I can tell it to start

01:03:10 ◼   ► with this episode and then download a new episode every X days so you kind of listening

01:03:15 ◼   ► in a time machine so I call this the Syracuse a feature because John always tells us you

01:03:22 ◼   ► start at the beginning I don't even know if it needs to download an episode every X days

01:03:25 ◼   ► I think I think what you really need is an inversion of the standard podcast procedure

01:03:30 ◼   ► which is start at the beginning and keep three episodes or whatever download this many episodes

01:03:35 ◼   ► when I'm done I just want the new one to pop up that's yeah so what I what I want is I

01:03:41 ◼   ► want to say you know keep three episodes and start at the beginning and so it'll download

01:03:45 ◼   ► the first three episodes and when I finish episode one it will download episode four

01:03:49 ◼   ► yeah and the key part here this is not a sorting option this is the I like because you can

01:03:54 ◼   ► a lot of apps have sorting options right where you can like right reorder them this is the

01:03:59 ◼   ► idea that like it would show up in your all unfinished playlist or whatever or your like

01:04:04 ◼   ► all unplayed playlist or whatever function of your app which shows like a chronological

01:04:09 ◼   ► list of all the stuff you have to listen to right like it's a new episode but it's actually

01:04:13 ◼   ► not and I agree I think this I think stuff like this should be great I don't know about

01:04:19 ◼   ► any apps that do this I have lobbied Marco for this feat for the Syracuse a feature in

01:04:24 ◼   ► overcast pretty hard because there are podcasts I listen to now that I am way behind and I

01:04:31 ◼   ► want to go through them sequentially from the from the point you know from the start

01:04:35 ◼   ► or from the point where I am now and I want to have that behavior where when I'm done

01:04:39 ◼   ► with this one I listen to the next one but because it's a podcast that's that's currently

01:04:45 ◼   ► like 50 episodes ahead that is more work than I'd like I'd really like to say you know I

01:04:50 ◼   ► want to start season two of hello from the magic tavern now and then just keep giving

01:04:56 ◼   ► me new episodes and you could do you could do it keep giving me a new episode every week

01:05:01 ◼   ► I tend to listen to a lot of shows in bit like that in binges so I'd like to be able

01:05:06 ◼   ► to say you know keep three or five or whatever at any one time and then as I as I've finished

01:05:11 ◼   ► the last one put the next one in the download queue or in the playlist or in the streaming

01:05:16 ◼   ► queue because I'm gonna keep on moving forward I think I think this is fitting with our theme

01:05:21 ◼   ► this is another way that podcast apps can make things easier for users where you can

01:05:25 ◼   ► do this now but it's more work and it shouldn't need to be some podcasts there's even a tag

01:05:30 ◼   ► in iTunes Apple made a tag that is basically start from the start instead of show me the

01:05:36 ◼   ► latest things that are not timely Apple made a lot of tags last year a couple of years

01:05:41 ◼   ► ago nobody's using unfortunately they're very hard to implement visually but that's an interesting

01:05:48 ◼   ► idea where like that could be a cue for somebody for an app developer to be like oh I'm gonna

01:05:52 ◼   ► offer for this podcast I'm gonna offer the start at the beginning option because the

01:05:57 ◼   ► podcast maker marked this as a start at the beginning so like total party kill is like

01:06:00 ◼   ► that the D&D podcast that I do it it's a start at the beginning podcast and you can draw

01:06:06 ◼   ► you can jump in anywhere but it is a series of linear stories with different groups but

01:06:10 ◼   ► they all start at the start and go forward through right and seasons yeah yeah for the

01:06:15 ◼   ► no podcast apps other than apples that support you using all I like you're using all of the

01:06:19 ◼   ► features I got all the nobody nobody's all in there them because even apples implementation

01:06:24 ◼   ► some of this stuff leaves a lot to be desired yeah I agree and I think that's why no other

01:06:28 ◼   ► apps have implemented them because the creator of this new part of the RSS standard has yet

01:06:35 ◼   ► to implement it in a way that visually makes a lot of sense that that is pleasing I you

01:06:40 ◼   ► know I wish that they that some of that rich data would get better used but I understand

01:06:44 ◼   ► also that most people don't use it and so there's no point in it but this is an example

01:06:47 ◼   ► where it might actually be helpful to say you know oh I can tell at least on some podcast

01:06:53 ◼   ► that this is a start at the start and even offer this as a feature but it regardless

01:06:57 ◼   ► it should be easier for users who want to start at the start of something if I'm listening

01:07:00 ◼   ► to hello from the magic tavern I tell somebody because let me tell you now it's great it's

01:07:05 ◼   ► an improvised fantasy podcast about a human from earth who lands on a fantasy world and

01:07:10 ◼   ► he and a wizard and a shape-shifting badger person do a podcast every week and it's entirely

01:07:16 ◼   ► improvised and it's hilarious but part of the hilarity is that they every time they

01:07:20 ◼   ► make something up it's part of the cannon and they can't contradict it later and so

01:07:24 ◼   ► you really need to start at the start you can do that you can subscribe to hello from

01:07:29 ◼   ► the magic tavern and make the effort to tap in the right places and play the first episode

01:07:34 ◼   ► it would be a lot nicer if the default was not here's the latest episode of hello from

01:07:39 ◼   ► the magic tavern because you don't want to hear it you want to hear episode one and then

01:07:45 ◼   ► if you like it episode two that's how it should be consumed my my one of these is the adventure

01:07:52 ◼   ► zone yeah that's a great I mean the dnd podcast so the the adventure zone dragon friends are

01:07:57 ◼   ► both both those podcasts or podcasts I'm listening to from way back in the catalog and I would

01:08:02 ◼   ► actually listen to them more often if I didn't have to go and say oh where am I in the adventure

01:08:07 ◼   ► zone like oh I downloaded three episodes I must be there now it's like I would rather

01:08:13 ◼   ► just subscribe to it right like uh like jeff suggests here I will say I would like to to

01:08:18 ◼   ► claim immunity from this uh request I put this question in before we uh spoke about

01:08:25 ◼   ► Marco adding features to his app so you know sorry Marco because we're clearly directing

01:08:32 ◼   ► this at you now I think at least I am because it's the app that I use and I want that feature

01:08:38 ◼   ► uh Kevin Kevin has a question do you think that if a developer uses marzipan apis in

01:08:43 ◼   ► an app they will be required to distribute it via the mac app store 100% kevin 100% this

01:08:50 ◼   ► is probably a bigger discussion for a later episode as again we either get closer to or

01:08:57 ◼   ► away from wwdc but why did apple all of a sudden decide to redo the mac app store yeah

01:09:06 ◼   ► I think eventually you're going to be able to buy either for a discount or whatever you're

01:09:10 ◼   ► going to just be able to buy all of the um all of the apps for all the platforms at once

01:09:15 ◼   ► right instead of right now you're going to have to buy the mac app separately from the

01:09:18 ◼   ► ios app yeah I think in the long run that's probably not going to be the case that they'll

01:09:22 ◼   ► get bundled together or at least developers will have the option to bundle the app across

01:09:26 ◼   ► platforms together maybe for a special price who knows and then we'll stop calling it the

01:09:30 ◼   ► mac app store yeah it'll just be the app store I think there's I wouldn't say it's 100 I'd

01:09:35 ◼   ► say it's like 95% because it's possible with all these new things that they're adding um

01:09:41 ◼   ► where they're you know they're notarizing apps and things like that yeah there might

01:09:44 ◼   ► be a few things you can do it's possible that that they'll let marzipan apps in as notarized

01:09:52 ◼   ► apps and have it be mandatory so you still have to pass through apple's process before

01:09:56 ◼   ► being released but I think it's also entirely possible that it'll be 100% mac app store

01:10:02 ◼   ► uh my kind of where I think the line will be drawn if like from a user interface perspective

01:10:07 ◼   ► like if you're using UIKit you'll be in the mac app store but if like you know we were

01:10:11 ◼   ► talking about the idea of maybe integrating with shortcuts like if those are separate

01:10:15 ◼   ► APIs you can probably still be out of the app store and use those that's how I kind

01:10:18 ◼   ► of think of it in my brain if your app's going to look like an ios app it's going through

01:10:22 ◼   ► the app store that's how I that's where I kind of like draw that limit in my brain um

01:10:28 ◼   ► jack says you're very skilled in the art of speaking on a podcast did that come just from

01:10:33 ◼   ► experience prove that this week I don't know oh did you actually do something conscious

01:10:37 ◼   ► to learn these skills I don't mean recording I mean speaking and presenting voice modulation

01:10:41 ◼   ► pacing articulation um jack did not direct this question specifically at either of us

01:10:49 ◼   ► so I'm going to assume jack likes the way that we both speak okay great and I think

01:10:55 ◼   ► the answer for this is the same for both of us where it's purely a case of practicing

01:11:01 ◼   ► and paying attention to the things that annoy people more frequently because they can't

01:11:07 ◼   ► get out of your brain and then you end up kind of changing a lot of the way that you

01:11:11 ◼   ► speak if you're Myke Hurley you lost a lot of your accent is what happened is you became

01:11:18 ◼   ► more like an American person it's I think there's multiple things going on here I think

01:11:22 ◼   ► some of it is just who you are and how you speak and that is your starting point like

01:11:27 ◼   ► I I gave my elementary school graduation speech I was in radio in high school humblebrag I

01:11:37 ◼   ► gave a I gave a speech at my high school graduation I you know I I have done I I got a bunch of

01:11:45 ◼   ► medals at the speech festival when I was in eighth grade I had the key to the sea because

01:11:54 ◼   ► of a great speech that I gave once I'm Batman no I you know so I I've been doing this a

01:12:02 ◼   ► long time of like public speaking public also part of his personality which is public speaking

01:12:06 ◼   ► has never bothered me like some people say it's the worst thing that you could possibly

01:12:11 ◼   ► do there's death and then like one up on the list of terrible things is public speaking

01:12:15 ◼   ► I've never felt that way I am awkward in lots of social situations but in front of a crowd

01:12:21 ◼   ► on a stage is not one of them so I I've got that going for me and then what Myke said

01:12:25 ◼   ► which is then you do this for years and every now and then I get an email from somebody

01:12:30 ◼   ► who says I just listened to upgrade number one or I just listened to the incomparable

01:12:33 ◼   ► number one and wow that you are much better now than you were back then it's like thanks

01:12:38 ◼   ► I guess like you're insulting my past to compliment my present how do you get to do a live show

01:12:43 ◼   ► at Carnegie Hall Jason ten thousand hours of practice and I mean it's not an accident

01:12:50 ◼   ► you just wander on the stage that's well and that was going to be my point is one of the

01:12:54 ◼   ► reasons that I don't feel bad about somebody saying I listen to incomparable number one

01:12:58 ◼   ► from August 2010 and wow your podcast is much better now is because it it should be right

01:13:04 ◼   ► yeah like you would I hope so I would really not be happy if I did something for nine years

01:13:11 ◼   ► and didn't get better at it like that is not not just like the technology and I'm using

01:13:16 ◼   ► a better microphone I'm better at microphone technique and I'm better at editing podcasts

01:13:19 ◼   ► and all that but I should be better as a host I should be better at speaking like you should

01:13:23 ◼   ► keep getting better at whatever you do as you go so part of it is that is you just got

01:13:27 ◼   ► to get started and and get better as you go and that's true for everybody so don't don't

01:13:33 ◼   ► say you know don't say oh I can't do a podcast because I'm not as polished as all the podcasts

01:13:38 ◼   ► that I've been listening to for many years like you got to start somewhere yeah and you'll

01:13:41 ◼   ► never go down that road if you never get started if you feel that way because like you're like

01:13:45 ◼   ► oh I love this show and I'd never be as good as them just go back to the earliest recording

01:13:50 ◼   ► you can find of that person and you will immediately feel better about yourself Myke has done a

01:13:54 ◼   ► really good job of hiding a lot of his old podcasts don't even exist on the internet

01:14:00 ◼   ► anymore because hello governor go all the way back though to 2012 with the episode one

01:14:07 ◼   ► of the pan addict yeah and you can listen to this guy who's talking like this and he's

01:14:12 ◼   ► so happy to be on a podcast he's a soccer hooligan he is who loves pens he'll stab you

01:14:18 ◼   ► with his pen he will anger him and finally Jay Lilly asks I'm getting a MacBook Air for

01:14:24 ◼   ► my wife to use during her master's program should I get eight gigabytes of RAM or 16

01:14:28 ◼   ► gigabytes of RAM always more RAM right as much RAM as you can afford I don't know it

01:14:34 ◼   ► depends on what his wife is doing with her master's degree if she's doing basic stuff

01:14:38 ◼   ► like I'm I I think that RAM gets oversold especially in this era of SSDs and 8 gigs

01:14:44 ◼   ► of RAM as a standard is actually pretty great so unless she's doing stuff like she's got

01:14:48 ◼   ► lots and lots of apps open at once and things like that I think I think the best buy on

01:14:53 ◼   ► laptops right now is to watch for one of these sales on Amazon or elsewhere where the MacBook

01:14:59 ◼   ► Air base model gets sent sold for $9.99 I think that's at the right price and it's a

01:15:04 ◼   ► great deal if you can get one and I've gotten to that way so I feel like that's the best

01:15:08 ◼   ► thing to do is just get the base model because for most uses it's gonna be fine like unless

01:15:14 ◼   ► unless she's getting her master's in like 3d graphics or computer science or engineering

01:15:20 ◼   ► or something like that in which case she's got some very specific technical needs but

01:15:23 ◼   ► if it's not something that specific I think I wouldn't worry about it quite honestly I

01:15:29 ◼   ► would go with the base model because I think the base model is pretty good and honestly

01:15:32 ◼   ► I probably spend money on disk before it's been on RAM because the base disk on the MacBook

01:15:37 ◼   ► Air is very very small.

01:15:40 ◼   ► If you would like to send in a question for a future episode of the show just send in

01:15:44 ◼   ► a tweet with the hashtag #AskUpgrade and it may be considered for a later episode and

01:15:48 ◼   ► if you want to be if you want to own the coolest podcast merch of the summer you need to go

01:15:55 ◼   ► to upgradeyourwardrobe.com and you can get that wherever you want to be super cool in

01:16:01 ◼   ► San Jose or you just want to think about USB when you're at the beach you can do that with

01:16:07 ◼   ► the dongletown surf club merch at upgradeyourwardrobe.com available until just May 13th so do not delay

01:16:16 ◼   ► on this one go buy it now now now.

01:16:19 ◼   ► Thanks so much to our sponsors this week the fine people over at Luna Display, Holo and

01:16:25 ◼   ► ButcherBox.

01:16:27 ◼   ► If you want to find Jason online sixcolors.com the incomparable.com and he is @JSNEL J S N

01:16:32 ◼   ► E double L I am @imike I M Y K E and I and Jason both host many shows here at relay FM

01:16:38 ◼   ► go to relay.fm/shows and you may find something new.

01:16:42 ◼   ► We'll be back next week until then say goodbye Jason Snell.

01:16:46 ◼   ► Pew pew pew.

01:16:47 ◼   ► [Music]

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