00:00:25 ◼ ► Oh, yeah, I know. Big. Like, about as big a week as weeks can be has been the last week.
00:00:36 ◼ ► Like, you know, I feel like after WWDC and our last episode, I felt like, "Oh, that was a big WWDC."
00:00:56 ◼ ► Just the one thing. And I felt like, "Yeah, well, this was a big week on Monday morning."
00:01:01 ◼ ► And we're going to get into some of that. But I think we'll just say we're out of the top.
00:01:06 ◼ ► So we're going to talk about some of the little extra things that we found out about WWDC.
00:01:58 ◼ ► And so we ran out of lunch meat at one point. So I had a series of sad give-up lunches.
00:03:08 ◼ ► One of them was an accessibility feature that lots of people have been really excited about.
00:04:02 ◼ ► - Yeah, again, the story with accessibility is that not only is it serving specific audiences,
00:04:15 ◼ ► is that everybody needs accessibility to a certain degree at some point in their lives.
00:04:28 ◼ ► And Apple -- this is one of those great examples where Apple makes a feature with one audience in mind,
00:05:46 ◼ ► Do I want to have beta software on all my devices that I rely on for the whole summer?"
00:08:52 ◼ ► Plus, you know, organization, there's a basic and entire overhaul of a lot of the application.
00:09:23 ◼ ► Shortcuts runs on the Apple Watch now too, and you can save not just the shortcuts icon,
00:09:45 ◼ ► which you can just tap the date of, and then you tap and change the time by typing them in as numbers.
00:10:15 ◼ ► And I would assume that in thinking about that, they've also rethought the way that date pickers
00:10:27 ◼ ► So the date picker is a month, and then if you need to choose a different month or year,
00:11:00 ◼ ► But it was one of those little things in the word cloud, which were much more visual this year,
00:11:06 ◼ ► So you would assume this is one of the couple of things that Apple is doing to probably try
00:11:16 ◼ ► So we spoke about email and browsers you'll be able to choose default on iOS and iPadOS,
00:11:21 ◼ ► and now you'll be able to presumably change your music service to Spotify or something like that
00:12:07 ◼ ► It isn't Werner Herzog, but it is a German fellow who works at Apple, which I think is funny.
00:12:18 ◼ ► As they mentioned in the keynote, the near term for car key is NFC, so it's like Apple Pay.
00:12:24 ◼ ► And there's a spec, there's like a car connectivity consortium, I think is the name of it, and Apple is part of it.
00:12:30 ◼ ► But it's a consortium, so it's car makers and tech people, tech companies, and it is trying to come up with a standard
00:12:44 ◼ ► So this BMW that they talked about that lets you do car key stuff this fall, that's NFC, which means that you have to hold your phone up to the door,
00:12:55 ◼ ► And then you have to put your phone in an NFC cradle basically on the dash, and then you can start the car.
00:13:01 ◼ ► And that's because NFC, you've got to be very close, and they've got to have your verification, right?
00:13:07 ◼ ► You can't, just getting into the car and then that's it, you shouldn't be able to start the car.
00:13:14 ◼ ► It's not ideal, but they're working on this 3.0 spec from the car connectivity consortium that's based on UWB, Ultra Wideband, which is the U1 chip.
00:13:24 ◼ ► And so that next wave of cars will support that, and that you don't have to even take your phone out of your pocket or purse or anything,
00:13:46 ◼ ► So even though they made this initial announcement, and it's about NFC, in the car key session for auto manufacturers only, please,
00:14:08 ◼ ► And this is one of those things where Apple makes an announcement now, and you're like, "Okay, but it doesn't impact my life now."
00:14:14 ◼ ► But if you buy a car five years from now, kind of like the rollout of CarPlay, five years from now, you will probably have an Ultra Wideband thing in your car
00:14:32 ◼ ► And this session talks about all the security that they go through, all the cryptographic key exchanges and endorsements and things that happen in the background
00:14:40 ◼ ► so that you can send your friend your car key and say, "Don't put a scratch on it. Here's the key."
00:15:03 ◼ ► So this allows developers to be able to use the U1 chip to kind of tell if devices are close to each other.
00:15:12 ◼ ► They've got an API, so you'll be able to do things to tell how far apart different devices are.
00:15:23 ◼ ► But it's good to see that they're opening this up because it will actually bring more use cases for this technology for applications that believe that they can use it.
00:15:33 ◼ ► Which is good because, as we've made many jokes in the past, Apple put this chip in their devices.
00:15:49 ◼ ► And I guess the good thing about it is, is when they do have stuff start coming out for this later this year,
00:16:00 ◼ ► which is better than what they have done this type of stuff in the past, where it's like,
00:16:12 ◼ ► And it may be that this goes to other devices. In the car key thing, they specifically mentioned Apple Watch,
00:16:23 ◼ ► which they haven't said anywhere else that NFC should work with the Apple Watch for car key.
00:16:27 ◼ ► The problem with the car key is that it'll let you in, but unless you take your watch off and lay it down in the dash, it won't actually work.
00:16:37 ◼ ► And at that point, you literally don't need anything but just walk up to your car and it unlocks for you, because you've got your watch on.
00:16:48 ◼ ► So they'll get there, but I think that's the question, because there's no NFC in the iPad, for example.
00:16:56 ◼ ► But the idea that the location interaction stuff, which is a fun session where a guy has an app where it's like a monkey that changes depending on how close you get,
00:17:06 ◼ ► and at the end of it, he goes all the way to the far end of the room and gives a thumbs up because he's found the other phone.
00:17:15 ◼ ► But I don't know what the application for that is, but it is cool that third parties get access to that stuff,
00:17:23 ◼ ► And there's been some information about new boot and recovery modes for Apple Silicon Max.
00:17:36 ◼ ► We're going to get back to this, but the Apple Silicon Max is an opportunity for Apple to change a lot of things that have just been the way they've been for a long time on Mac,
00:17:50 ◼ ► Like the bootloader here, they're essentially, I think, using the iPhone and iPad bootloader.
00:17:59 ◼ ► So they have to say, "Okay, well, how do we want new Macs to boot? How do we want them to boot?"
00:18:09 ◼ ► So it forces them, kind of like the iPad pointer actually, it forces them to do a modern take on what Mac users expect from startup.
00:18:24 ◼ ► But think about all of those keyboard shortcuts that all your friends ask you about when they're desperate, which is like, "How do I get to recovery mode?
00:18:33 ◼ ► How do I zap the PRAM? How do I boot off an external drive? How do I get to single user mode?"
00:18:57 ◼ ► But what if the device that you need to look it up on is the one you now can't boot properly?
00:19:06 ◼ ► And it's kind of, I think these days, everybody knows you're having a problem with your device.
00:19:34 ◼ ► And what will happen is it will come up with something that looks very much actually like
00:20:03 ◼ ► What's interesting about this is that also means that they had to add support for multiple bootable drives to the bootloader.
00:20:11 ◼ ► Because if you think about it, you can install two versions of iPadOS on an iPad and choose from startup disk which one to boot from, right?
00:20:22 ◼ ► But Mac users expect to be able to have this version here and another version there or two separate installs and be able to boot from one externally and the other one internally and all that stuff.
00:20:34 ◼ ► So it's another example of Apple kind of like putting together a new take on what Mac users expect because they had to build it again in 2020.
00:20:45 ◼ ► Instead of the thing that they kind of built up over the course of 20 years, it's their new take on it.
00:20:51 ◼ ► And that goes to, you know, like recovery is an example where on current Macs you have your boot partition and then you have like the secret recovery partition.
00:21:03 ◼ ► Well, apparently on this version, there's your boot partition, your recovery partition, and then there's like the super secret emergency partition.
00:21:19 ◼ ► So there's more kind of cached away that isn't on the internet now, but still, you know, it'll get you back up and running.
00:21:26 ◼ ► I'm sure more details will come out, but anybody who supports Macs, whether it's as a profession or with their friends and family, this is going to change how we do that.
00:21:48 ◼ ► Oh, and target mode, which is a popular thing, you know, hold down command T when you start up and your computer becomes a disk drive, right?
00:21:56 ◼ ► That was always the, it was originally like the firewire target disk mode, and then it just became regular old target mode.
00:22:02 ◼ ► The idea there is like, you hold down that key command, your computer is now a hard drive, you plug it into another computer, you can see the contents of the hard drive.
00:22:14 ◼ ► So you go into the options and you choose a sharing mode or disk sharing mode or something like that.
00:22:29 ◼ ► You don't even need a cable because presumably it's on your local network via Wi-Fi or Ethernet, and you can just connect to it in recovery mode and helicopter the files off that you need.
00:22:40 ◼ ► So lots of rethinking of what we think of as sort of traditional Mac features that they've had to re-implement, and they've done it in a modern way rather than just having it be a copy of what was there before for Intel.
00:22:54 ◼ ► And I think the last thing I wanted to mention today was, I think what many people agreed on was one of the most entertaining session videos of everything that came out from WWDC, which was designed for the iPad OS pointer.
00:23:09 ◼ ► This is a fascinating session, which is mostly pretty high level talking about design and design decisions.
00:23:25 ◼ ► It's four individuals who each go through different considerations that they made about what the iPad OS pointer is doing at a conceptual level, why they decided to make it look the way that it did, how you can design custom pointers and how they should interact.
00:23:39 ◼ ► This thing is an absolutely fantastic and fascinating session that I recommend everybody watch.
00:23:48 ◼ ► It was my favorite session of the week, and it is mostly not technical in the way that you're thinking a developer session would be.
00:23:58 ◼ ► It's, you know, because there are developer sessions where they get into the code and I keep hitting the 15 second skip button because it doesn't, it's not going to, it's not for me.
00:24:11 ◼ ► So if you appreciate design, whether you're a designer or not, if you appreciate design or you appreciate finding out how the thing you use works and the principles behind it, if you like sort of taking apart or understanding better what's going on, whether or not you use the iPad OS pointer.
00:24:35 ◼ ► Because it very much, like I said about all the boot stuff, this is reinventing the pointer.
00:24:39 ◼ ► This is literally saying, okay, in 1984, the pointer was invented for a certain purpose and we're essentially using the same one now, but in 2020, what do we want it to be?
00:24:49 ◼ ► And there's some fascinating things in there about like degrees of precision and why it's a circle and not an arrow and how it changes.
00:24:58 ◼ ► I highly recommend it for anyone who cares about design functionality or just understanding why stuff works the way it does.
00:25:05 ◼ ► I also just wanted to note two pieces of follow out for two interviews that Craig Viderighi was involved with.
00:25:14 ◼ ► One was, I will recommend people go and watch the YouTube video that MKBHD made, which was content that was cut out of his podcast interview.
00:25:25 ◼ ► So he also released a longer interview on his waveform podcast with Craig Viderighi, but then did a kind of edited version, which I really liked the presentation of this.
00:25:35 ◼ ► It was like a video of responding to kind of his viewers, their comments, the things that they weren't sure about, the things they wanted more information on.
00:25:45 ◼ ► And it was like Marquez would kind of set up a point and then go to ask Craig what it was and get Craig's input on it.
00:26:02 ◼ ► The podcast interview itself on the waveform podcast is also interesting because Marquez and Craig actually talk about how the production was done for the keynote.
00:26:22 ◼ ► But the video itself is if you just want to spend 20 minutes or whatever, it's really nicely done.
00:26:28 ◼ ► And then of course, I mean, I'm sure everybody here has probably already seen the talk show with Craig, Viderighi and Jaws, right?
00:26:49 ◼ ► Yes, or, or a location, uh, it's a very nice location. I suspect it's not his actual office, but rather a, uh, a nice background chosen.
00:27:04 ◼ ► So yeah, obviously go watch those two, but I just wanted to mention in case people hadn't seen them yet, because they're also really good for giving a little bit more background, more information and, uh, video's nice too.
00:27:24 ◼ ► And while this year's celebrations are a little bit different than usual for some, there are still ways that we can all come together to support the LGBTQ+ community.
00:27:36 ◼ ► These colorful socks bring more love, compassion, and comfort into the world because they also give back to those experiencing homelessness in the LGBTQ+ community.
00:27:54 ◼ ► And it made a whole collection of people happy because it was all of their different styles.
00:28:00 ◼ ► So like my friend, Tom, who is a runner, got the, like the low socks that don't go above your ankle.
00:28:18 ◼ ► I got a really cushy set of blue socks that I love that are super nice and that I've been loving wearing.
00:28:38 ◼ ► So essentially we made a whole community happy, including my friend Tom, the runner, with the Bombas socks.
00:28:46 ◼ ► And yeah, my daughter immediately basically took the Pride socks and was like, I want them, I want them, I want them.
00:28:57 ◼ ► And she rolls her eyes at lots of podcast products that come into our house, but not those socks.
00:29:24 ◼ ► Pride is usually a time when we can all come together, but because many Pride events were
00:29:28 ◼ ► canceled this year, it's more important than ever to find new ways to show support and give back to a community.
00:29:33 ◼ ► You can go to bombas.com/upgrade right now and shop the Pride collection and get 20% off your first order.
00:29:48 ◼ ► So we're going to move into now our interview with Bob Borchers and Ronak Shah from Apple's Product Marketing team.
00:29:58 ◼ ► As we mentioned, this interview was conducted last week and we hope that you really enjoy it.
00:30:03 ◼ ► So I wanted to start this by actually talking about Safari because obviously Safari is a
00:30:12 ◼ ► It's probably for many people, the app that they have open all day, every day, they do most of their work in.
00:30:36 ◼ ► This is the biggest release of Safari that we've done really since we first introduced it.
00:30:42 ◼ ► And it starts with a lot of the hallmark features that people have come to know and love around Safari.
00:30:56 ◼ ► So we're delivering this amazing performance, letting you browse and stream video longer than other popular browsers.
00:31:09 ◼ ► And this year with the privacy report, we're raising awareness around how Safari protects you.
00:31:14 ◼ ► Making it really easy for users with a click of a button to see what trackers are being blocked as they browse the web, which is really cool.
00:31:26 ◼ ► So this whole range of extensions that are out there, developers are going to be able to easily bring those to Safari.
00:31:36 ◼ ► And once they've done it, we built an all new category on the Mac App Store to showcase those extensions with editorial and top charts.
00:31:51 ◼ ► Everything from the customizable start page that lets you add new types of content like the reading list or your iCloud tabs.
00:31:58 ◼ ► Lets you customize your background image to an all new tab design that's more space efficient.
00:32:11 ◼ ► So now as you browse the web and come across a site that you want to translate, we've got a really elegant experience to do that.
00:32:28 ◼ ► There's some judgment that's going to happen when you visit a site to help the users understand sort of what's going on behind the scenes, which I think it's really interesting.
00:32:37 ◼ ► I think it's definitely in fitting with sort of Apple's approach to security and privacy on the web.
00:32:42 ◼ ► Can you talk a little bit about the thought process of getting a little more in users faces with disclosure about what their web browser is doing and what their sites they're visiting are doing when they visit them?
00:33:04 ◼ ► We want to raise awareness and let users know that this is happening and give them information that makes them more aware of the tracking that's being attempted as they browse the web.
00:33:15 ◼ ► And so with a click, they can see the trackers that are attempting to track them on the current website, or they can get even more information and see those trackers for the past 30 days.
00:33:25 ◼ ► And I think, Ronik, as well, when you were talking about extensions, that's another great place where I don't think consumers know enough about the potential risks that you have with extensions.
00:33:37 ◼ ► And they do some amazing things and developers have been phenomenally creative with them.
00:33:42 ◼ ► But they also introduce some privacy risks that I think are really important for us and others to educate users about so that they know, hey, with this great power comes some risk.
00:33:57 ◼ ► And one of the things that we're doing there is when you enable extension for the first time and you go to a site and you want to use it, when you click, we'll ask you how much access you want to give to that extension, whether you want to give access just to the site, just for the day, or if you want the extension to be able to access anything that you browse.
00:34:13 ◼ ► And so we think it's really important to be able to give that users that level of control as they use extensions.
00:34:19 ◼ ► And by the way, I am definitely going to be using that recipe extension that Beth showed in the keynote.
00:34:26 ◼ ► My wife turned to me when we were watching it and said, I want this because every website has like paragraphs upon paragraphs of text before they actually show the recipe.
00:34:36 ◼ ► I didn't know we were going to talk about search engine optimization in cooking blogs, but oh boy, yes, absolutely.
00:34:49 ◼ ► And yet there are certain things where I have the stuff that I do in Chrome and a lot of it has to do with some very specific extensions.
00:35:00 ◼ ► It seems to me, I don't know a lot about extension browser extension development, but it sounds like most of the extensions that are out there that are based on chromium.
00:35:13 ◼ ► Is the idea here that it shouldn't be a complete rewrite or anything like that for these extensions to come over that because you're using this specific format that the developers of those extensions will fairly quickly be able to bring them up on Safari?
00:35:29 ◼ ► Simply need to use the tools to package up their extension and they'll be able to publish those to the app store directly.
00:35:34 ◼ ► In some cases, developers will have to make some minor modifications, but we expect that Chrome and Firefox extension developers are going to have a pretty straightforward time bringing these extensions to Safari, getting them on the Mac store and having all of our users be able to download and use them.
00:35:52 ◼ ► And so we're shipping tools in Xcode 12 that make all of that really seamless that can automatically package up these extensions and formats that are used by other browsers.
00:36:04 ◼ ► And a lot of those extensions that I'm using, I'm using on one website where I'm using them, you know, one session and then I don't use them again for another month.
00:36:11 ◼ ► And I like the idea that I can say, okay, now I'm using you and know that when I go to that browser a week later, it's not sitting there loading, you know, reading every single page.
00:36:33 ◼ ► I actually wanted to follow up on the privacy stuff that you were saying, Ronak, like that you obviously at Apple have been seeing and have been able to keep a track of a lot of the trackers and the stuff that's been following around people on the web.
00:36:50 ◼ ► But there's a shield icon in the toolbar which people can tap and they can see about the trackers.
00:36:56 ◼ ► Do you think that this level of putting it in front of people's faces will educate them more in that they may then start to demand change from the websites that they visit?
00:37:18 ◼ ► And if it also means that users expect more, not just from the sites they visit, but from the browsers that they use, that's great, too.
00:37:25 ◼ ► We want this not only to be about raising awareness, but also hopefully to help push the industry forward in terms of how users get tracked on the web.
00:37:34 ◼ ► Yeah, and I think if you look at the privacy principles that Craig outlined at the very beginning of the section in the keynote, there were four.
00:37:41 ◼ ► And the last one and the one we've been really focused on is about transparency and control.
00:37:45 ◼ ► It is about knowing what is happening that then allows you to demand and to take control.
00:37:51 ◼ ► And when people think about privacy, they understand that there is a risk there, but they don't necessarily know what to do about it.
00:37:57 ◼ ► And what we really want to do is to bring some of these things to the fore so they can become more educated, they can become more demanding, they can demand of all of us to do better.
00:38:10 ◼ ► And that's why that transparency kind of pillar is so critical to privacy in so many different places.
00:38:22 ◼ ► Can we talk a little bit about some of the password functionalities in the new version of Safari?
00:38:28 ◼ ► So in addition to monitoring unwanted tracking, we're also this year securely monitoring your saved passwords.
00:38:35 ◼ ► And one of the really cool things that we can do now is securely detect if one of your saved passwords is involved in a data breach.
00:38:43 ◼ ► And we use a cryptographic derivation of your password so Apple doesn't get your password information, but we can compare that derivation against lists of breached passwords.
00:38:52 ◼ ► And if your password is involved in a data breach, we can alert you and we make it really easy to upgrade to a securely generated password that's more secure.
00:39:00 ◼ ► So that's what I was going to ask is you're not just looking at like sources that were breached, you're looking at did my password get leaked in a data breach, my specific password?
00:39:10 ◼ ► And we can do that in a secure way where we don't get that information, but we can make the comparison and let you know.
00:39:26 ◼ ► Or is there kind of a different flow where it alerts people as soon as it's been found out?
00:39:43 ◼ ► I go to a page that is in a language I don't have in my list of languages, and so I don't understand it.
00:39:49 ◼ ► And this is always, I will tell you, it is always somebody sending me to an amazing investigative report on Spiegel or one of these other German websites.
00:39:57 ◼ ► I'm like, okay, I took high school German, but I want to know about like behind the obvious, which is now Safari can translate that page, which is great.
00:40:06 ◼ ► I'm curious, sort of like, how does this work? Is it all happening on device? What is happening on device?
00:40:12 ◼ ► There's obviously language detection going on. Is that looking at the webpage literally saying, "I'm serving you German," or are you looking at the text on the webpage and detecting that it's German?
00:40:22 ◼ ► And then is it going over the internet to do that translation, or is it doing it on device?
00:40:34 ◼ ► And if a user decides that they want to use translation, we actually send the contents of the page, the text, to an Apple server.
00:40:51 ◼ ► We do the translation, send it back to Safari, and then we discard that information on the server side so that you get that translation information back to you.
00:41:03 ◼ ► You were mentioning about, especially to the star page and stuff like that, which I think leads into talking about Big Sur in general.
00:41:17 ◼ ► What about 2020? What about this version of macOS felt like the right time to start taking a look at what macOS looks like again?
00:41:27 ◼ ► Yeah, you know, it's a situation where we make design changes very carefully and thoughtfully because they have such huge ramifications.
00:41:37 ◼ ► In many cases, they are, we're talking about updating, you know, hundreds of millions of devices, and we carry that responsibility with a lot of weight and concern.
00:41:46 ◼ ► And what we want to do is we want to look at each of the platforms that we have and look for ways in which we can better match the capabilities of that platform together with the design and bring those components together.
00:42:00 ◼ ► And as we were looking at macOS and macOS Big Sur, we really felt like there was an opportunity here to use the palette of the operating system and use the entire beautiful large display that Macs have to give you better access,
00:42:20 ◼ ► And so when you see things like the translucent menu bar, when you see kind of the layering of the different menu items and elements, that's really to bring what's most important to the fore and let the other pieces be available, but also be standing just slightly back.
00:42:35 ◼ ► And if you look at that great film that Alan did in the keynote, I think you get a real sense of that because he's talking about how these layers are being created and put up almost in 3D and thinking about, OK, how do you prioritize those pieces?
00:42:52 ◼ ► And so for us, you know, we want to make the best use of the platform that we have, but we also want to balance that with a degree of familiarity.
00:43:03 ◼ ► So somebody who is coming from a different device, coming across to the Mac, for example, we want them to be able to be instantly comfortable, but at the same time, make sure that we're doing things that are kind of authentic to the platform.
00:43:25 ◼ ► But if you zoom in, it's got the craft and the care and the beauty that Mac icons have been known for since the beginning.
00:43:32 ◼ ► You know, zoom in and you'll see embossed in the back of the envelope is Apple Park, Cupertino, California.
00:43:39 ◼ ► Right. It's those thoughtful touches that provide the continuity and kind of help people understand, you know, the Mac is still a Mac and it's amazing.
00:43:47 ◼ ► But we're also providing a degree of familiarity with these these other platforms while at the same time advancing kind of the design purpose that's within macOS Big Sur.
00:44:00 ◼ ► We think people are going to love it and just excited for people to get their hands on it.
00:44:04 ◼ ► The dock icons are kind of a perfect metaphor, I think, for what's happening in Big Sur, where, as you say, there is an element for the UI design and bringing consistency,
00:44:14 ◼ ► but not forgetting what the Mac is, what its history is, where it's come from by going to those levels, to putting in little Easter eggs,
00:44:22 ◼ ► to just really having those icons be much more detailed than their counterparts on iOS, which speaks to the fact that macOS is macOS.
00:44:39 ◼ ► If you look at the latest generation of hardware, the audio ability of the Mac both to record and playback is phenomenal.
00:44:47 ◼ ► And it created a great opportunity to kind of rethink and reimagine some of the sounds.
00:44:53 ◼ ► And we've gone and created very familiar but slight riffs off of things that we've had for many, many years,
00:45:00 ◼ ► and even, you know, done things like bring back the boot chime as a way to signal, "Hey, yes, this is a new macOS with macOS Big Sur,
00:45:11 ◼ ► but it stands on the shoulders of kind of the great leaps in the operating system to date."
00:45:16 ◼ ► It definitely feels momentous. We've got not only my favorite thing, which is version numbers, where we go to version 11,
00:45:23 ◼ ► but you've got the Apple Silicon coming in with those Macs, and you've got this design refresh.
00:45:35 ◼ ► It does feel like it's the biggest visual refresh for sure, since Aqua or since sort of Aqua got muted, but it's been a long time.
00:45:44 ◼ ► So it all feels like this is a good time for change because everything is changing to a certain degree.
00:45:51 ◼ ► Yeah, I think there is a moment in time where you want to kind of move things forward in a significant way,
00:46:01 ◼ ► Now, that being said, if you look at it, you know, our operating systems actually have kind of two levels of names, right?
00:46:13 ◼ ► And by the way, I think Big Sur is the perfect name for this because anybody who's visited Big Sur knows it's this amazing combination of power and beauty,
00:46:31 ◼ ► But then the version number, which speaks really significantly to the developer community,
00:46:36 ◼ ► is where we have also signaled this is a big moment in time by going from version 10 to version 11,
00:46:44 ◼ ► and really helping people, you know, if they didn't already know, it's time to kind of sit up and take notice.
00:47:03 ◼ ► And one of the things that I was really excited about with the whole keynote as a whole,
00:47:19 ◼ ► Is that a consideration now that these two platforms are kind of becoming a little bit closer in their visual consistency
00:47:32 ◼ ► I'd say functionality, let's throw that in there too. I mean, obviously, added keyboard and pointer support.
00:47:36 ◼ ► But then when I see, for example, a lot of people have said, "Oh, the Mac in Big Sur looks a lot more like the iPad."
00:47:43 ◼ ► But I, as somebody who's written a book about photos, like the sidebar in photos on the iPad,
00:47:48 ◼ ► I'm like, "I know where that came from." Right? That's learning lessons from the Mac and applying them to the iPad.
00:48:02 ◼ ► Yeah, and I think people should expect that, right? And just go look at widgets, for example,
00:48:14 ◼ ► in terms of creating glanceable UIs and ways in which you can visually get access to information
00:48:19 ◼ ► very quickly and clearly. And so we want to take those learnings. But again, coming back to my previous point,
00:48:25 ◼ ► we want to do it in a way that is specific and authentic for the platform that we're designing for.
00:48:40 ◼ ► obviously that's a construct that we've had elsewhere. But the way that we brought it to the Mac
00:48:45 ◼ ► is uniquely suited to the Mac. You can tear off controls and put them into the menu bar.
00:48:50 ◼ ► You can dive down and get more fine-grained controls. It is really well suited for the Mac.
00:48:57 ◼ ► If you look at Messages, a simple example, but yes, we've brought over great features from iOS 14,
00:49:04 ◼ ► like being able to pin conversations and having inline replies, and now you can edit Memoji
00:49:15 ◼ ► And yeah, Windows, exactly. Maps is a perfect example of that. Bring up three windows within
00:49:21 ◼ ► Maps. So you've got one for reading about the great guides for a location you're going to,
00:49:26 ◼ ► another one for the route, and another one for look around. What else, Ronik? What else comes to mind?
00:49:32 ◼ ► I mean, multiple windows. If you want to get really into the details, I mean, look at some of
00:49:36 ◼ ► the things that we've done with popovers in Messages so that you can get to all of these
00:49:40 ◼ ► new features. We've been able to use Catalyst to not only bring over new features that we
00:49:45 ◼ ► introduced in Messages on iOS this year, we were able to bring over features like effects
00:49:50 ◼ ► and the photo picker, Memoji stickers that people have been wanting for a really long time.
00:50:05 ◼ ► so I'm very much looking forward to that. Is there a conversation, how does the conversation
00:50:09 ◼ ► work in terms of you've got teams working on the Mac who are bringing, for example, Messages and
00:50:14 ◼ ► Maps over using that Catalyst, new versions that are coming from the iPad using that Catalyst.
00:50:20 ◼ ► And there are also the people who are working on that Catalyst, on the tools that all developers
00:50:26 ◼ ► have to use to effect this move from iPad to the Mac. How does that work? Do those teams,
00:50:32 ◼ ► are they collaborating in a cycle, a development cycle like this? Are they collaborating all the
00:50:36 ◼ ► time? Does the Maps team call up the Catalyst team and say, "We really need to do this thing,
00:50:41 ◼ ► can you make this work for us?" I'm just curious how that conversation goes on because the truth
00:50:56 ◼ ► Yeah, and I think when we, you know, if you go back to when we introduced Mac Catalyst,
00:51:01 ◼ ► the goal was to be able to get people who had built amazing iPad apps and had that code base
00:51:07 ◼ ► to get them to come across to the Mac and be able to spend their time really finely tuning it for
00:51:13 ◼ ► the Mac experience. And in the intervening time, we have done nothing but listen to external and
00:51:19 ◼ ► internal developers as to the kinds of things that they wanted to have and felt would be most
00:51:25 ◼ ► useful and effective, and then have added that in. And if you look at this release of Mac Catalyst,
00:51:30 ◼ ► it's huge. I mean, the number of additional capabilities that have been added in is phenomenal,
00:51:36 ◼ ► and they can now take advantage of, you know, accessing essentially every pixel on the Mac,
00:51:41 ◼ ► they can take advantage of universal purchase, all of the controls that Ronik was talking about.
00:51:46 ◼ ► So that inspiration and that drive comes from wanting to have the best apps possible on the Mac
00:51:53 ◼ ► for developers coming from any direction, and that includes both the internal teams as well as the
00:51:59 ◼ ► external teams. It makes sense. Last year, I talked to a lot of developers who, because there was so
00:52:03 ◼ ► much enthusiasm over releasing SwiftUI, which is understandable, there was also this question of
00:52:09 ◼ ► sort of like, "Well, what about Mac Catalyst?" And sort of Mac Catalyst last year was making good on
00:52:13 ◼ ► the promise of the year before. So we're going back multiple WWDCs now. But I know that they all
00:52:18 ◼ ► had their lists, right, of, "Here are the things that I want Mac Catalyst to do," and that they
00:52:23 ◼ ► were all pretty enthusiastic because it is quite an endorsement. I was talking to somebody today
00:52:27 ◼ ► who said, "Well, when you see major Mac apps from Apple brought over on Mac Catalyst, it seems like
00:52:33 ◼ ► a pretty solid endorsement for using Mac Catalyst." So I think they're enthusiastic seeing Apple,
00:52:39 ◼ ► what Apple can do with messages and maps. Well, yeah, and I think the real proof point here is,
00:52:44 ◼ ► go use those two applications. And they are just phenomenal for all the reasons Ronik just
00:52:51 ◼ ► mentioned. And at the end of the day, we are one company, right? So the fact that this should be a
00:52:56 ◼ ► great combination of efforts and be the best representation of what you can do with Mac Catalyst
00:53:01 ◼ ► is what you should expect of us. What do you think are some of the key areas that developers
00:53:07 ◼ ► should be focusing on to make sure that their apps are going to look at home on Big Sur?
00:53:11 ◼ ► So there are a number of things that if they're using the modern frameworks built within Xcode
00:53:18 ◼ ► and within the operating system, if they're using the modern frameworks, they'll actually get a lot
00:53:22 ◼ ► of the pieces and the components for free, as it were. And they will get the standard treatments
00:53:28 ◼ ► and they'll have access to a number of the capabilities that we've been talking about that
00:53:34 ◼ ► will make Mac OS Big Sur really what it is. And I think one of the ones we were talking about earlier
00:53:46 ◼ ► within kind of a standard framework, but then to be able to be creative within it. And I think it's
00:53:51 ◼ ► actually all you have to do is be a user and go look at your dock. You can almost sometimes gauge
00:53:58 ◼ ► when the app was last updated based on the modernity of its icon. And so I actually think
00:54:05 ◼ ► one of the things people should do is once they get their app incredibly performant and doing all
00:54:11 ◼ ► the things that you would want to, also go look and see, you know, what is your front door look
00:54:16 ◼ ► like? And does it represent kind of the visual approach and the treatment and the fresh way in
00:54:23 ◼ ► which we've created our own icons and think about how they want to be represented in that same format?
00:54:29 ◼ ► It's almost like marketing in a way as well, really, isn't it? Because as well, especially if
00:54:34 ◼ ► these apps are going to be in the Mac App Store, it will help them stand out, I'm sure. But it's
00:54:38 ◼ ► an important part of an application. It's the identity of the application in many ways.
00:54:44 ◼ ► Yeah, which is why, you know, going back to why we spent so much time thinking about the icons,
00:54:50 ◼ ► that has been, you know, for a long, long time, that has been such an important part of how you
00:55:02 ◼ ► thoughtful way because users are discerning. And you take a lot away from what you see in that
00:55:13 ◼ ► Yeah, I have to own up to there being many apps that sometimes I feel like I can't use because of
00:55:18 ◼ ► the icon. It's the thing where like, I'm like, I don't know if I can keep clicking on this.
00:55:26 ◼ ► Actually, personality of apps goes beyond this. This just strikes me. One of the features in Big
00:55:32 ◼ ► Sur is this idea that apps can set their own kind of signature color. And so you can have,
00:55:39 ◼ ► user can say, I want to be in, you know, I want everything to be orange or blue or whatever,
00:55:44 ◼ ► but the default is this multicolor mode, which lets every app in addition to their icon and
00:55:49 ◼ ► everything else about them, lets them sort of have their color, which I think is a really
00:55:53 ◼ ► interesting little quirky thing about letting every app express itself. And that goes for
00:55:58 ◼ ► Apple's apps that are on the system, but it also goes for every third party app that they can say,
00:56:17 ◼ ► Yeah. And, and I also think it serves a real functional purpose too, which is especially,
00:56:23 ◼ ► you know, today with the Mac being so powerful and us doing so many different things within the Mac
00:56:29 ◼ ► and having multiple windows up, one of the things you want to do is very quickly be able to figure
00:56:33 ◼ ► out which window you need to go to. And if you've got a little glimpse of color that you've kind of
00:56:38 ◼ ► put in the back of your head that, Oh, blue is male. It's, you know, it's a great cue that serves,
00:56:45 ◼ ► you know, not only a way I love the way you put it, you know, that shows off some of the personality
00:56:49 ◼ ► of the app, but it also serves a functional purpose so that I can go get that and recognize
00:56:54 ◼ ► it and kind of start to build some of the muscle memory it builds, you know, creates an order to
00:57:00 ◼ ► all these things. So, um, yeah, I'm excited to see how people are going to, how they're going to use
00:57:05 ◼ ► it and what it's going to start to look like. It's funny that you say about blue being male. I feel
00:57:09 ◼ ► like every third party mail app I've ever seen uses blue and white for its icon. And I'm sure
00:57:15 ◼ ► that that all goes back to the Apple standard mail app, right? Like that's where that comes from.
00:57:21 ◼ ► Yeah, yeah, no, they, yeah. And, and it is funny how that color memory is so, so strong for you.
00:57:27 ◼ ► Yeah. Okay. So we've got developers receiving betas a big sir. Now, um, Apple has announced
00:57:34 ◼ ► that there will be, as there have, has been the last few years, public beta forthcoming in July
00:57:39 ◼ ► beta cycle. Obviously it's for people who want to try the new stuff out before it's ready to go for
00:57:43 ◼ ► the masses. It's also a feedback cycle and every beta version comes with a feedback assistant.
00:57:48 ◼ ► What kind of feedback do you expect to get? And are you looking for as part of the beta
00:57:54 ◼ ► process, whether it's from users or developers and does that get incorporated? I think if they're,
00:57:59 ◼ ► what we see today in the developer release is not necessarily a done deal about the final release.
00:58:07 ◼ ► There's going to be stuff that Apple kind of learns and recognizes based on user feedback and adjusts
00:58:12 ◼ ► along the way. Right? So we spend a ton of time going through the feedback that we get. It's the
00:58:16 ◼ ► whole reason that we, we do the public data. We want people using it. Um, and we want to get
00:58:21 ◼ ► feedback from everything from technical bugs and issues to feedback on the features themselves.
00:58:27 ◼ ► And like I said, we have teams that spend a lot of time going through that feedback, identifying
00:58:33 ◼ ► things that we need to spend more time on, pay attention to, and that feedback ends up in the
00:58:39 ◼ ► final product. When we ship it in the fall, there are so many things that we've incorporated from
00:58:44 ◼ ► that, that helped make the release better. Um, and so, um, I, I can't remember when we started the
00:58:49 ◼ ► public doing public betas a few years ago, but it's been become a really important part of our
00:58:54 ◼ ► process as, as we develop the software and refine it in the final months before release.
00:59:02 ◼ ► they, for somebody using the beta, they need to get out that feedback assistant and send that
00:59:06 ◼ ► feedback to Apple because you've got people looking at that all summer. That's right. And
00:59:10 ◼ ► we want to hear about it. And we've actually made a lot of improvements to the feedback assistant
00:59:14 ◼ ► itself to make that process even easier so that it's really easy for users to send us that feedback
00:59:19 ◼ ► because that's incredibly valuable to us. We talked about Mac catalyst a little bit. I want
00:59:26 ◼ ► it's slightly tangential as well, which is one of the announcements that I don't think a lot of us
00:59:31 ◼ ► expected in the keynote was the idea that in addition to iPad app developers being able to
00:59:37 ◼ ► bring their apps to the Mac using that catalyst, that on Apple Silicon apps that are for iPhone and
00:59:43 ◼ ► iPad will be able to run natively inside Mac OS, which is it's surprising. It's interesting.
00:59:51 ◼ ► I'm curious if you have any thoughts about sort of like how you view an app that's, you know,
00:59:57 ◼ ► running in big Sur that's a Mac native developed using app kit versus something developed using
01:00:04 ◼ ► that catalyst versus something that we're now going to have another class of apps, which are
01:00:08 ◼ ► things coming over from the app store. How does that work? How does that look? And do you think,
01:00:20 ◼ ► It was a big, it was a big moment. Yeah. It was, it was definitely a surprise and almost,
01:00:29 ◼ ► Well, and I think, you know, just pulling back a second, if you look at it within the broader,
01:00:34 ◼ ► the broader context, our goal with any transition, and especially with this upcoming transition to
01:00:40 ◼ ► max with Apple Silicon, we want to make it seamless for developers and seamless for users,
01:00:51 ◼ ► really important for us to talk about Rosetta too, and all of the amazing capabilities there as a
01:00:57 ◼ ► transitional technology while you're getting your app ready to become a universal binary. So
01:01:02 ◼ ► as a universal binary, you know, which you can generate in Xcode 12, you have one single file
01:01:10 ◼ ► that you can distribute that will run on both Intel based max, as well as max with Apple Silicon,
01:01:15 ◼ ► and be able to kind of take that out to people that way. You saw all of the great additions to,
01:01:20 ◼ ► to catalyst for people to be able to take their iPadOS or iOS code base and, and move that in.
01:01:27 ◼ ► And on top of that, because we will have a, with Apple Silicon, we'll have a unified silicon
01:01:32 ◼ ► platform. We can also look at doing things like bringing those apps that are running on iOS or
01:01:39 ◼ ► iPadOS over to the Mac. And what's great about it is that there will be, there'll be a class of apps
01:01:45 ◼ ► where the developer doesn't necessarily know yet whether to go invest the time in developing a Mac
01:01:51 ◼ ► version, but they want to get, give their users access to the capability and creativity. And so
01:01:58 ◼ ► they opt into, to putting their, their app into the Mac app store. And by the way, this is all
01:02:03 ◼ ► within the developer's control, right? They get to decide whether or not the, the app goes there,
01:02:08 ◼ ► but then once it goes there, the user can, has access to it in the same way that they would on
01:02:15 ◼ ► iOS or iPadOS, the developer can learn a ton and they can decide, okay, hey, maybe it's time for
01:02:21 ◼ ► me to then go invest the time and let's use Mac catalyst to get it into, you know, into becoming
01:02:27 ◼ ► more of a native Mac app. And let me start to build out that functionality because I see what
01:02:31 ◼ ► people are doing with it. So we just think, you know, for, for developers, it's going to be a
01:02:36 ◼ ► phenomenal way to extend the number of people that can make use of the creative work that they've
01:02:41 ◼ ► done. And also enriching kind of the, the Mac ecosystem. So people can, can have access to some
01:02:48 ◼ ► of the things that are going on on the other platforms. So, you know, at the end of the day,
01:02:53 ◼ ► what's really important to us is that across all of these dimensions, that this transition is kind
01:02:57 ◼ ► of seamless for both developers and, and, and users. And that's going to, you know, continue
01:03:03 ◼ ► to be the focus as we move forward. Well, the fact is I, so I use an iPad primarily when I'm
01:03:08 ◼ ► traveling and I think about what if I was using a Mac laptop and there are certain iPad apps that
01:03:13 ◼ ► I would really miss that aren't Mac apps. And I think about this scenario and I think, well,
01:03:17 ◼ ► now I can run those apps too. And then maybe eventually there'll be something that gets
01:03:22 ◼ ► brought over to catalyst. I also, there are lots of places in my current Mac experience where
01:03:26 ◼ ► the answer is we have an iOS app. And if you're on a Mac, you just need to use our website.
01:03:32 ◼ ► And I love Safari. I already said it, but you know what? I love apps more than I love web pages.
01:03:38 ◼ ► And I can see some of those, I could just really see the benefit, especially the ones that are
01:03:44 ◼ ► using flash, which is going to be deprecated in December, the benefit of being able to say,
01:03:49 ◼ ► Oh, I don't have to run that lousy website anymore. I can run their iPhone app or their iPad app,
01:03:54 ◼ ► which is way better. So for me part of this is the opportunity to move some stuff where I've got
01:04:02 ◼ ► kicked to a lousy website. And instead I get to use a great app that, that works, but that works
01:04:07 ◼ ► for me. Yeah. And that's a great example, Jason, because it's, you know, there's real utility that
01:04:13 ◼ ► you want to make use of. And sometimes these apps are coming from small development shops where they
01:04:18 ◼ ► don't have a lot of time, but what in this process they'll come over and they'll have provided that
01:04:24 ◼ ► they've been using kind of modern frameworks, they'll have, you know, great native Mac capabilities
01:04:30 ◼ ► along with them. So it won't, you won't feel like you're having to, you know, settle for something.
01:04:34 ◼ ► It'll be like, Oh my gosh, this is just, it it's magic that this just happened. So yeah, we think
01:04:39 ◼ ► it's going to be a great part of the, of the overall story as we begin the transition to
01:04:45 ◼ ► Macs with Apple Silicon. Yeah. For people who don't, who didn't notice the file system stuff
01:04:49 ◼ ► is the part that made me sit up and take notice where, you know, you open a file in an iPad app
01:04:55 ◼ ► and you're opening your files on your Mac. It's just, it just kind of happens. And that's a
01:05:00 ◼ ► beautiful thing because then you don't end up in a weird space where you're like, wait a second,
01:05:12 ◼ ► In so many ways, like so many of the ways that we've touched on, Big Sur really does feel like
01:05:18 ◼ ► Mac OS for now and the future. And I'm very excited about it myself. I couldn't agree more.
01:05:25 ◼ ► And I think I'm just excited for, for folks to be able to, to get access to Big Sur and start to
01:05:32 ◼ ► explore it and see all of these kind of layers of, of story and technology and the fact that in,
01:05:39 ◼ ► you know, it just works the way that you would expect it to. I think it's really a powerful
01:05:43 ◼ ► representation as you, as you say about, you know, today, tomorrow, the future. And like I said,
01:05:49 ◼ ► appropriately named Big Sur. Bob Ronach, I really, really want to thank you for both spending some
01:05:55 ◼ ► time of upgrade today. It's been absolutely wonderful to get your insight and your thoughts on
01:05:59 ◼ ► everything that you've got going on at the moment. Thank you. It's been, uh, there's a lot in dub dub
01:06:04 ◼ ► this year and we really appreciate you guys investing the time to kind of unpack it with us.
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01:07:34 ◼ ► from SolarWinds for their support of this show and RelayFM. That was really great, wasn't it,
01:07:40 ◼ ► Jason? That interview? Yeah, it was great to talk to them and try to get some tidbits here and there
01:07:46 ◼ ► while we're also getting there. I find a lot of this, obviously they've got their marketing
01:07:50 ◼ ► details that they're getting across, but I like hearing from actual human beings who work at Apple
01:07:55 ◼ ► and getting their take. Sometimes it's not about the details, but it's about the philosophy. It's
01:08:03 ◼ ► sort of like, well, we think that this is, and so like asking them about running iOS and iPad apps
01:08:07 ◼ ► on a Mac. That's the kind of thing where you can get maybe a little sense of how Apple's approaching
01:08:13 ◼ ► it from that, which I think is very helpful. So I'm very appreciative of those guys to take the
01:08:18 ◼ ► time and sit down with us virtually from Apple Park. Yeah, and what was a very busy week for them,
01:08:23 ◼ ► I'm sure. So like having people available to talk to us was great. And I'm really thankful for the
01:08:30 ◼ ► many, many, many people that were involved in making that happen. These things are quite a
01:08:35 ◼ ► production and I'm really happy that everything was able to come together. Yep. Now, Jason had a
01:08:41 ◼ ► great idea for a topic today that we're going to talk about now. But when Jason was telling me
01:08:46 ◼ ► about this topic, I thought to myself, this feels a little more than our usual topic. This feels
01:08:53 ◼ ► quite fun. Now, if you're new to upgrade, every summer things start to get a little slower in the
01:09:00 ◼ ► news department. So we say to ourselves, and we said many years ago, we thought we would start
01:09:05 ◼ ► coming up with some topics that aren't necessarily news related, aren't necessarily reporting about
01:09:12 ◼ ► things. But we have a little bit more fun with them than we usually do. So we're doing something
01:09:17 ◼ ► that nobody was expecting us to do, including ourselves right now. And we are transitioning
01:09:22 ◼ ► right now into the summer of fun. Summer of fun! It is happening in the middle of an episode.
01:09:28 ◼ ► And the summer of fun is now going to take us all the way through with some cool vibes and
01:09:32 ◼ ► fun vibes all the way through to maybe September, maybe October. Who knows? Summer of fun is right
01:09:39 ◼ ► now. The calendar, the summer of fun cannot be limited. It goes until it's done and then it
01:09:45 ◼ ► leaves us and we can't control it. So what are we going to talk about for our first summer of fun
01:09:50 ◼ ► segment this year, Jason Snow? Well, I wanted to do this and I didn't want to wait because I think
01:09:56 ◼ ► everybody's going to be talking about it. So it just, again, the summer of fun forced its hand and
01:10:00 ◼ ► said, "I must happen now." We are going to build the Apple Silicon Mac. Oh, this is quite an
01:10:10 ◼ ► important job we found ourselves taking care of here. Yeah, well, somebody's got to do it and
01:10:16 ◼ ► it's going to be us because Apple, the only people doing it right now are at Apple and they're not
01:10:20 ◼ ► talking. So we're going to do it. The premise here is that, so back in the Intel transition,
01:10:30 ◼ ► trying to send a message of stability, right? It's like, it's okay. It's still an iMac. It just has
01:10:34 ◼ ► an Intel processor in it now. And I feel like based on what we learned last week, this feels
01:10:39 ◼ ► different. I'm starting to get this sneaking suspicion that Apple has been holding on to a lot
01:10:45 ◼ ► of features because why implement that and go through like all the trouble of implementing this
01:10:49 ◼ ► on the current hardware when they already have built it for iPad and iPhone and they could just
01:10:54 ◼ ► move it over once they're on Apple Silicon. And maybe I'm wrong. Maybe we'll see that we could
01:11:01 ◼ ► be wrong here, but I think it's worth pondering what would, what Apple may have in reserve to
01:11:08 ◼ ► roll out starting toward the end of this year in terms of new features and designs that are powered
01:11:15 ◼ ► by Apple finally controlling the whole system on a chip and what they might bring in from the iPhone
01:11:23 ◼ ► and the iPad. This is not a draft, but I think we could alternate and come up with whatever ones we
01:11:30 ◼ ► think are most interesting and do it that way. So it gives it feels a little like a draft, but it's
01:11:37 ◼ ► - A collaborative draft as you will. So yeah, I think this is a good idea. And I like your
01:11:43 ◼ ► setup here because I think you're right. I think there's probably a combination of things going on
01:11:47 ◼ ► here. It could be a case of now that the fact that Apple are making their own chips, it's like
01:11:52 ◼ ► there's stuff that they know how to do better if they're controlling it or things that are just way
01:11:58 ◼ ► easier for them to do. So like they're going to get some features that like just wouldn't be easy
01:12:03 ◼ ► for them to do while choosing Intel because it requires a lot of other hardware and a lot of
01:12:07 ◼ ► other chip design. But now that they're doing it on their own, it's like, well, we already have all
01:12:12 ◼ ► these features in our iOS devices. We know how to do that. Let's do it. But also the idea of like
01:12:17 ◼ ► if you have some really cool features on the way, don't blow them maybe. There's always,
01:12:24 ◼ ► so you think about Apple, right? And we've just spoken to people. Marketing and product
01:12:29 ◼ ► are intertwined there. And that is important to consider how sometimes there may be a decision
01:12:36 ◼ ► that they make, which is a product decision, a feature decision, but they make it at the right
01:12:40 ◼ ► time because the marketing story fits, right? And that can go in both ways, but sometimes they
01:12:46 ◼ ► might make tough decisions earlier than they need to because they want it for marketing reasons,
01:12:52 ◼ ► right? So getting rid of 32-bit apps in Catalina may have been because when the max silicon stuff
01:13:00 ◼ ► comes around, well, they can't run 32-bit apps anymore. So do that earlier than you need to.
01:13:06 ◼ ► So you can clear the decks and focus on what you want to for later on when you need it, right?
01:13:13 ◼ ► Kind of follow what I'm saying? So let's talk about some of these features. Should we go in
01:13:36 ◼ ► is a cellular modem in a Mac or in a Mac laptop especially. I can imagine this stuff being way
01:13:53 ◼ ► and Apple is continuing to move forward with future like 5G and stuff like that. Developing
01:14:00 ◼ ► stuff on their own is something we've heard a lot of, right? And they acquired a bunch of stuff that
01:14:04 ◼ ► they would need. They acquired Intel's chip business, right? Yeah, they bought Intel's modem
01:14:09 ◼ ► business. It's true. So I can imagine a future Mac laptop—I can't imagine the desktops getting them,
01:14:18 ◼ ► but—future Mac laptop having integrated LTE or 5G. I think that makes a lot of sense. I think
01:14:29 ◼ ► currently using Qualcomm stuff, it's not going to happen in the short term, but once they are
01:14:34 ◼ ► making their own cellular modem silicon, then I think it gets much more probable that they will
01:14:42 ◼ ► do it. My question has been all along, you know, why not make cellular Macs? Why not do it? Why
01:14:49 ◼ ► not just sell it for an extra 130 bucks or whatever and put it in there? And some of it is maybe the
01:14:55 ◼ ► OS isn't really built to think about that traffic that way, and they would need to make some OS
01:15:00 ◼ ► changes. But I remain frustrated that Apple doesn't let laptop users have the same option that iPad
01:15:08 ◼ ► users have for cellular because I love having cellular on my iPad, and I would not go back.
01:15:12 ◼ ► So I would really like laptop users to be able to do that. And yes, you can tether and stuff
01:15:18 ◼ ► like that. It's not as good as just popping a SIM card in and paying—in my case, I pay an extra
01:15:24 ◼ ► $10 a month or something, and my iPad is just—if I'm somewhere without Wi-Fi, it just gives me data
01:15:29 ◼ ► and it's fine. And I love it. It's the best. -What do you want to go with? -Oh, I am going to go with
01:15:37 ◼ ► ProMotion displays. This is something that we've had on iOS devices, and it's delightful. The
01:15:48 ◼ ► high resolution, you know, high screen rate of refresh makes smoothing super—like scrolling
01:15:54 ◼ ► super smooth and pleasant. Like, the Mac just doesn't do high frame rate right now, and iOS
01:16:04 ◼ ► devices do, and I want that on the Mac. -Well, just the iPad. -Well, just—yeah, I know, but
01:16:08 ◼ ► although the iPhone should do it too. The iPhone needs ProMotion, right? We've talked about that.
01:16:12 ◼ ► So the iPad does it now, and I love it, and whenever I use an iPad that doesn't have it,
01:16:16 ◼ ► I think, "Oh, oh no." Like, oh no, that's not—like, you can really tell. It seems so small,
01:16:22 ◼ ► and yet it's actually really delightful, and why not do that on the Mac? You know, it's akin to,
01:16:27 ◼ ► like, taking Retina to the Mac. Why would you not take ProMotion to the Mac as well? -Because I
01:16:32 ◼ ► think that high refresh rate screens and displays, they're starting to become table stakes in the
01:16:38 ◼ ► technology industry, and this is reminding me of Retina, but it's taken them longer to do it. So
01:16:44 ◼ ► this is a big screen technology. Apple had it for multiple years on the iPad Pro. I think that this
01:16:49 ◼ ► year it's going to come to the iPhone, at least at the Pro. Maybe the whole line, but probably the
01:16:54 ◼ ► Pro for sure. Why not put it on the Mac as well? Because then, you know, ProMotion becomes a new
01:17:01 ◼ ► part of the Retina display kind of package, right? Maybe they will rebrand it to include it in
01:17:07 ◼ ► Retina some way. You've got, like, the liquid Retina display and all those names that they've
01:17:12 ◼ ► given the displays over time, and it feels like that this is going to become a technology that
01:17:17 ◼ ► people are going to start expecting more and more and more devices, and it would be, you know,
01:17:23 ◼ ► I've seen people saying, like, the Mac can support it if you have a high refresh monitor. Like,
01:17:30 ◼ ► it can look really good. I've seen a lot of people talking about that kind of stuff on Twitter
01:17:33 ◼ ► recently, so it'd be really wonderful to see Apple build this into their products. Maybe that new
01:17:39 ◼ ► iMac or maybe that screen that we all hope will come will be a high refresh rate monitor, as well
01:17:44 ◼ ► as the laptops. We'll see. I want to pick something that's near and dear to my heart is Apple Pencil
01:17:50 ◼ ► support, especially in the laptops. There's some other stuff that we're going to talk about in a
01:17:56 ◼ ► little bit which could enable this and may enable this to work well, but I think it would be
01:18:01 ◼ ► wonderful to see the Apple Pencil expand into other devices and really kind of, like, solidify
01:18:09 ◼ ► as an input method, as an artist tool, as a notebook, as a meeting note tool as it's becoming.
01:18:15 ◼ ► I think it would be really great to see it not just be an iPad feature anymore. You know,
01:18:20 ◼ ► it started as an iPad Pro feature, then became across the entire product line for iPad,
01:18:26 ◼ ► and like promotion, let's start breaking that outside of just from one device. Let's make
01:18:36 ◼ ► be really wonderful to see. Yeah, now obviously there are going to be some ergonomic issues there,
01:18:41 ◼ ► but we're going to, I suspect, deal with that before we get come to the end of the list.
01:18:44 ◼ ► But I definitely think that Apple Pencil support should be there. So one of the motivators of doing
01:18:49 ◼ ► this is looking at the Big Sur design, which sort of rounds everything and spaces everything out a
01:18:56 ◼ ► little bit more. Menu items are spaced out more. The menu bar is taller. There is definitely this
01:19:01 ◼ ► feeling that it feels like they're trying to make it a more acceptable interface for touch than the
01:19:09 ◼ ► Mac has been before. And then you throw in the fact that Apple Silicon Macs are going to be able to run
01:19:13 ◼ ► apps from iPad and iPhone that were built for touch. And while they will probably work okay
01:19:21 ◼ ► with a pointer in many cases, not necessarily in all cases, and while the Mac is always going to be,
01:19:28 ◼ ► I believe, a keyboard and pointer-driven interface primarily, with the iPad what we've seen is you
01:19:34 ◼ ► can have a touch primary device that also does Apple Pencil and also does keyboard and mouse
01:19:47 ◼ ► that I would even say all Apple Silicon Macs may be touch screen Macs, that this is the time when
01:19:54 ◼ ► they do this. And the reason is because it's not the primary, but it can be very nice to reach up
01:20:01 ◼ ► to your screen and scroll something. And then you're gonna have some apps on there that are
01:20:10 ◼ ► I think that, I know like people have had lots of opinions on this over time. Apple have spread
01:20:19 ◼ ► their feelings on this over time. I think many years ago on an episode of the talk show at WWDC,
01:20:26 ◼ ► I think Phil Schiller kind of referenced it as like monster arms, like holding your arms out and
01:20:30 ◼ ► touching devices. Zombie arms. The zombie arms. That argument is gone now because of the iPad Pro.
01:20:36 ◼ ► The iPad Pro is as much a laptop in its design now and the way that Apple markets and sells the thing
01:20:41 ◼ ► as any other laptop that Apple makes. So the idea of thinking that a touch screen shouldn't be in
01:20:47 ◼ ► that form factor is wrong. Now if we're looking at desktop Macs, that becomes trickier to put
01:20:54 ◼ ► touch screens there. Like my iMac Pro as far away as it is from me right now, I don't know if I
01:20:59 ◼ ► would want to be reaching up and touching that, but any laptop, yeah, I would want to be able to
01:21:03 ◼ ► do that in the same way that I want to be able to sometimes to do that on my iPad Pro when I have it
01:21:08 ◼ ► with my magic keyboard on. Most of the time I use the trackpad, but sometimes I'm reading an article,
01:21:12 ◼ ► I'll just reach out and swipe, or I just don't have that moment broken in my brain where I just
01:21:18 ◼ ► reach out and instinctively touch a thing and nothing happens, right, which happens to me more
01:21:22 ◼ ► and more when I use Mac laptops now. So enabling that functionality would be nice. I think that
01:21:28 ◼ ► the future of computer users, like younger people now, expect touch screens and they're not on Macs,
01:21:35 ◼ ► but they are on the rest of the PC industry. They're baffled by the fact that Macs don't
01:21:40 ◼ ► support this. And for people who are like, "Oh no, Apple said they won't do it, so therefore it will
01:21:45 ◼ ► never happen," I will point out two things, one of which is the iPad has a keyboard and a mouse with
01:21:49 ◼ ► a cursor, and the Apple Pencil is a thing when there was that famous line about "If you see a
01:21:55 ◼ ► stylus, they blew it," which was not about this quite because it was about primary input method,
01:22:00 ◼ ► which is really sort of the point. So Apple adding touchscreen to Macs, they're going to say,
01:22:05 ◼ ► "Well, now is the time," and it makes sense because it's the typical Apple thing, right? Well,
01:22:10 ◼ ► we didn't before because it wasn't any good, but now that we did it, it's good. That's what they do.
01:22:24 ◼ ► - Yeah, look at Big Sur and ponder the fact that a bunch of touch apps are going to run on Macs,
01:22:41 ◼ ► - Yeah, yeah. I was listening to a podcast, I think it might have been ATP, where they were
01:22:46 ◼ ► talking about this, or maybe it was connected, and I immediately was like, "Well, you'll just
01:23:01 ◼ ► This is for Apple Silicon Macs, so it's no existing Macs. Running these apps is a feature
01:23:07 ◼ ► that doesn't exist on the older hardware, the Intel hardware, but the new hardware all supports it,
01:23:17 ◼ ► - Now, my next point. I don't know what I think about this, but I would be intrigued to see it,
01:23:28 ◼ ► - So if they're gonna put touchscreen on it, if they're gonna put Apple Pencil support on it,
01:23:34 ◼ ► would Apple ever consider making a two-in-one Mac? Now, the idea of you take the screen,
01:23:44 ◼ ► I don't know how I feel about this one, because that feels like it might be pushing into iPad
01:23:49 ◼ ► land too much, but if they could come up with something really cool from a design perspective,
01:23:58 ◼ ► - Yeah, I think the rule that I'm going by is Apple is not going to push one shape group into
01:24:10 ◼ ► another area, if that makes sense. So iPad owns the "I'm a standalone." People are like, "Are they
01:24:16 ◼ ► gonna make a Mac Surface that doesn't have anything, and then you attach a keyboard to it?"
01:24:19 ◼ ► And I would say no, they're not, because that's the iPad. That's what the iPad is. Likewise,
01:24:23 ◼ ► I think Apple's not gonna make an iPad laptop now, because iPad doesn't go into laptops,
01:24:32 ◼ ► you define a Mac as being something with a keyboard attached to it, and it's a keyboard
01:24:37 ◼ ► primary device, the idea that they might make one where you can fold the keyboard back, maybe not
01:24:42 ◼ ► take it off, but fold it back or turn it around or do something that makes a convertible, like a PC
01:24:47 ◼ ► laptop convertible or two-in-one, maybe with some unique features of Apple's design that we don't
01:24:52 ◼ ► anticipate, kind of like that magic keyboard for iPad was not quite what we thought it would be,
01:24:56 ◼ ► some clever little things they do, that I could see, because keep in mind, if there's a touch
01:25:02 ◼ ► screen on an Apple Silicon laptop, that means it's running basically all iPad apps. And at that point,
01:25:10 ◼ ► when you fold that keyboard back, you could treat it like an iPad, and it's an iPad, and then you
01:25:15 ◼ ► fold the keyboard back around, and now it's a Mac again. I think that could work. I don't know
01:25:21 ◼ ► whether they're going to do it either, but it's certainly an option for them, is to generate
01:25:25 ◼ ► these laptops that don't act like today's laptops because they've got the touch interface,
01:25:32 ◼ ► and they've got all of those iPhone and iPad apps that are running. And you get people then saying,
01:25:37 ◼ ► and I'm sure there are many people screaming at their podcast player right now and saying,
01:25:40 ◼ ► "But that would kill the iPad!" But I don't think it would, because that is going to be an okay
01:25:49 ◼ ► tablet experience. It's not exactly a good one. It's going to be thick. It's a laptop that can
01:25:54 ◼ ► kind of behave like a touch device in certain circumstances, just like the iPad right now is a
01:26:01 ◼ ► touch device that can behave like a laptop in certain circumstances. So it becomes, it already
01:26:14 ◼ ► last week who said, "Okay, well, will Jason buy a laptop and start using a Mac laptop again because
01:26:20 ◼ ► it'll run iPad apps?" And my answer is probably no, because the thing that I actually like the
01:26:25 ◼ ► most is that the iPad is primarily a touch tablet that's very light and that I can connect a keyboard
01:26:36 ◼ ► the Mac laptop, a lot of people are like, "I tried the iPad, but it just doesn't work for me. It's
01:26:41 ◼ ► just not." Like those people, it might be perfect to have something that is primarily a laptop,
01:26:47 ◼ ► but can become an okay tablet when you want it to be, and then it goes back to being a laptop
01:26:53 ◼ ► the rest of the time. I'm intrigued by this product idea that we've created. Yeah, so let me
01:27:02 ◼ ► extend the ergonomics since we're talking about ergonomic stuff. The other place that this goes
01:27:08 ◼ ► is the iMac design with something that's more like the Surface Studio. If you've got a touch
01:27:17 ◼ ► screen Apple Pencil iMac, how does that work? And I think Microsoft has already showed us that
01:27:22 ◼ ► the way that works is by having it be supremely adjustable. And I think this is another one of
01:27:29 ◼ ► those engineering challenges for Apple that Apple might delight in doing. It might also be something
01:27:34 ◼ ► that reminds us a little bit more of the G4 iMac, where there's a base and then there's also the
01:27:42 ◼ ► floating thing. I don't know whether the computer's in the base or in the screen, but if you've looked
01:27:47 ◼ ► at that Surface Studio product, it's really interesting ergonomically because it can sit
01:27:52 ◼ ► up like an iPad, but you can also drop it down right in front of you and then use touch or use
01:27:58 ◼ ► a stylus and go into kind of a pen input mode or a touch input mode. And if the Mac supports touch
01:28:09 ◼ ► and runs iPad apps, plus, you know, Photoshop and things like that that support pen events today,
01:28:15 ◼ ► like that's a really compelling thing. And then you just pop it up and it's a computer again,
01:28:22 ◼ ► like a traditional computer again. I think that that could be amazing, but you need to have all
01:28:27 ◼ ► these other pieces. We're getting ourselves excited now, but Jason, this, all of this makes me like
01:28:32 ◼ ► really excited about the Mac again. I knew we'd find a way. I knew we'd find a way, Myke.
01:28:38 ◼ ► Look again, like I don't, I don't mean to be mean, right? Like it's not all like to say that the Mac
01:28:48 ◼ ► is, is boring. Just my tastes, what I'm interested in has changed over time. And for me personally,
01:28:58 ◼ ► the Mac feels like it's just kind of been what it is. And I like new and the iPad has continued
01:29:07 ◼ ► to be new and do new things. And it's added new peripherals, new ways of interacting with a
01:29:14 ◼ ► computer like, and I've been very intrigued by that and excited by that. And I would really love
01:29:21 ◼ ► to get this stuff that we're talking about today in a Mac, because then I'm going to be like really
01:29:26 ◼ ► excited about the Mac again. And I'm, I would like that, you know, the way I've been thinking of it
01:29:33 ◼ ► is Apple has spent the last decade plus building a brand new platform. And with the iPad
01:29:43 ◼ ► figuring out new ways of doing things that the Mac figured out in 1984, but like the modern way
01:29:51 ◼ ► of doing that to some success and some not success. And when you look at all of the features that we've
01:29:57 ◼ ► listed and some more that we'll talk about here, one of the things, the sense I get, and maybe some
01:30:02 ◼ ► of this is wishful thinking, but the sense I get is what's happening now is Apple saying,
01:30:10 ◼ ► now that we've built this platform up to this level, we can bring this stuff to the Mac.
01:30:15 ◼ ► Now that we've got our own chips in there, and we're confident that our chips are going to be
01:30:19 ◼ ► good enough to meet all the demands of the Mac, we're going to now be able to bring all that stuff
01:30:28 ◼ ► And that's what I really hope happens is that one of the reasons the Mac has been kind of meandering
01:30:33 ◼ ► for the last few years is they were treating it as a legacy platform. And then they had a change
01:30:38 ◼ ► where they thought, no, we're going to bring the Mac in. The way the Mac survives is not by not
01:30:44 ◼ ► changing and just sort of sitting out there because it's going to die. Instead, we're going to bring
01:30:48 ◼ ► it in and it's going to share so much with our other platforms. Also, Apple's not that big a
01:30:53 ◼ ► company in terms of people, and maintaining two completely separate operating system platforms is
01:30:58 ◼ ► not great. So now the less of that they need to do the better, the Mac becomes a superset of iPad and
01:31:04 ◼ ► iPhone features. So that's why I'm excited too, is that I do think this is the opportunity for all
01:31:12 ◼ ► these things that they've invented over the last 10 years to get poured back into the Mac. Why do
01:31:16 ◼ ► it? I mean, some of them they've done with the T2 processor, right? There's stuff that they were
01:31:20 ◼ ► like, okay, we'll do this. We're going to build our own custom chip and bypass Intel stuff. But
01:31:24 ◼ ► I feel like there's a lot of stuff they left on the table because, like perhaps what you're about
01:31:30 ◼ ► to say, because sort of like, well, let's just wait. Let's just wait and we'll do this when we
01:31:36 ◼ ► control the whole thing, which we don't right now. I would like to see Face ID find its way to the
01:31:42 ◼ ► Mac. Yeah. Along with better webcams in general, just I'll throw one in there as a side note.
01:31:47 ◼ ► But Face ID would be fantastic on the Mac. As we said, since we first saw it, it feels like
01:31:54 ◼ ► an inevitability. It's just a case of Apple being able to build the technology inside of
01:32:00 ◼ ► the screens, which are very thin screens, right? Now, I don't know how much space they actually
01:32:05 ◼ ► need for the Face ID stuff in general, but I would really, really love to see them do that.
01:32:10 ◼ ► And if it's a touch screen, touch screens may actually have to have a little bit more thickness
01:32:15 ◼ ► too. So it might be one of these things that it goes along with adding a touch screen is adding
01:32:19 ◼ ► a better webcam. But you're right. The webcams need to be better. Windows PCs have had essentially
01:32:43 ◼ ► but I use a desktop every day and I would love for Face ID to work on an iMac, right? Like,
01:32:55 ◼ ► For security reasons, they really can't add it, I think, outside the box. And even then you'd have
01:33:01 ◼ ► to use like their keyboard or something like that. I use an Apple Watch for that, which is nice,
01:33:05 ◼ ► but I think Face ID is a logical thing. And yes, the webcams need to be better across the board.
01:33:12 ◼ ► I'll throw in a little minor thing. I think we've only got a couple more here. Mine is a little
01:33:18 ◼ ► minor thing that if you look, developers have been talking about this this week, this past week,
01:33:23 ◼ ► there are some new things that you do when you're building Mac apps that involve checking for a safe
01:33:30 ◼ ► area, which is like, well, why is there a safe area? And the answer is they are totally going
01:33:37 ◼ ► to curve the edges of the Mac screen like they do it on the iPad. Every piece of UI that they have
01:33:42 ◼ ► built in Big Sur has to be curved. And if you put a curved window up against a sharp corner,
01:33:49 ◼ ► what's the point of that? Yeah, so I think that that is, I think they're going to take all of the
01:33:54 ◼ ► edges around that. And you know, the original Mac had curved edges, curved little corners.
01:33:59 ◼ ► So it's also harkening back to the old days, but I think it's just, it's very hard to imagine that
01:34:04 ◼ ► they won't. I was looking at my iPad Pro just this morning and thinking, oh yeah, that's totally what
01:34:08 ◼ ► they're going to do. They're going to, and it's a little thing. It's just a little thing, but I
01:34:23 ◼ ► the corner doesn't meet in a sharp point like it does on the Mac. That feels modern now because
01:34:28 ◼ ► that's what our iOS devices do. Your iPhone has curved edges on it too. So that feels like what
01:34:34 ◼ ► you see in a modern computer now. And even though, as you say, it goes all the way back to the
01:34:46 ◼ ► The last one I want to mention is just no more tapers. Like thin designs, but like flat edges
01:34:56 ◼ ► and stuff like that. The iPad, you know, we've been talking about this, the iPad Pro design language.
01:35:19 ◼ ► which I think Apple is going to do. I think every Apple Silicon Mac, except for the Mac Pro,
01:35:32 ◼ ► because they have, they got beat up about that. And so they brought back a new computer that
01:35:39 ◼ ► looks just like the old MacBook Air. You can just call it the new MacBook Air. I think the
01:35:42 ◼ ► problem was they just didn't have a MacBook Air anymore. Yeah. Yeah. I think you're right. I, I,
01:35:47 ◼ ► I hope so. I'm not sure how, whether they're capable of completely redesigning every single
01:35:52 ◼ ► product, but then again, they have, they have kept these products looking the same for a long time.
01:35:58 ◼ ► Yes. And again, this is the thing is maybe it's wishful thinking, but I look at this moment and
01:36:03 ◼ ► I think this is what they've been doing the last couple of years. They've been turning over the Mac
01:36:07 ◼ ► in the background, but they couldn't ship any of it because it all had, was predicated on the Apple
01:36:17 ◼ ► I hope that's what it is. I hope that's true because I will say as exciting as the Apple
01:36:22 ◼ ► Silicon stuff is, if we're here in a year and the Macs that are being sold by Apple are essentially
01:36:27 ◼ ► the same Macs they're being sold now, except without Apple Silicon, I will be disappointed
01:36:32 ◼ ► because these are not just wishlist items because we're fun and you know, it's exciting and it's the
01:36:38 ◼ ► summer of fun. It's also, these are things we want that Apple makes on other products and it should
01:36:43 ◼ ► be on the Mac too. We haven't picked anything here except for maybe some of the ergonomic stuff,
01:36:50 ◼ ► like the way that they're not doing in other places. But even then they're still doing really
01:36:56 ◼ ► interesting ergonomics on the iPad with like the magic keyboard, right? That cantilevered hinge,
01:37:02 ◼ ► like that's wild from a design perspective. So I don't feel like anything we've said here is like
01:37:08 ◼ ► real pie in the sky type stuff. These all feel possible. I want to see how much they'll do.
01:37:15 ◼ ► The last thing I'll mention, this is not on the list, but I want to just gauge your interest in
01:37:18 ◼ ► this. We talk about new design. What do you think about new names? Yeah, I, I don't know. I mean,
01:37:25 ◼ ► I think I, I could see it, but I think that maybe that's a bridge too far and that the slots are
01:37:32 ◼ ► fairly well named and you know, I could see them doing a new consumer laptop name. I feel like the
01:37:39 ◼ ► iMac has so much cache now. It would be very hard to make something that wasn't the iMac.
01:37:49 ◼ ► PowerBook or something like that, because that's a fun name that they retired and they could bring
01:37:53 ◼ ► back because MacBook Pro is a mouthful. I think if they got rid of Mac, they just replace it with
01:37:59 ◼ ► Apple. And I don't think they're going to call them Apple books. Yeah. So I, and I think Mac is
01:38:06 ◼ ► going to be in every name because I think they've just decided that that's a thing. Although,
01:38:10 ◼ ► you know, I, I don't know, I guess it's possible, but if I had to bet, I would bet that they won't
01:38:15 ◼ ► because the, by redesigning them, if they truly redesigned them, they want to reassure you of what,
01:38:22 ◼ ► you know, what kind of animal is this? Right. It's like, I know it looks, it's shaped a little
01:38:25 ◼ ► different, but it's still a zebra, right? Like I think they want to be like, I know it's different,
01:38:30 ◼ ► but it's still an iMac. This is the iMac. It's just the next one. And that's the advantage.
01:38:34 ◼ ► If they had renamed the iMac when they went to the iMac G4 or to the Intel iMac or something
01:38:40 ◼ ► like that, it would be like, Oh, here's a new computer. That's kind of like the iMac. And
01:38:43 ◼ ► instead by calling it the iMac, you're like, no, it's just the new iMac. It changes shape,
01:38:47 ◼ ► but it's still an iMac. And you know what that means. So I think that that's the trick is you
01:38:51 ◼ ► change the shape, but keep the name so that there's some continuity happening. That was a
01:38:56 ◼ ► great way to start the summer of fun, Jason. I agree. I'm glad it came early this year. We need
01:39:02 ◼ ► some fun, right? We need 2020 bring in the summer of fun. We need that fun more than, uh, more than
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01:40:45 ◼ ► Before we wrap up today, should we bring back #askupgrade? It's been a couple of weeks.
01:40:53 ◼ ► Marlies from the Discord asks, "Should I wait for the public beta or beg my former employer
01:41:14 ◼ ► Apple says that they're going to do public betas in July. It's about to be July. I think you could
01:41:19 ◼ ► wait. The nice thing about being on the public beta track is that if there's a disaster,
01:41:25 ◼ ► they just don't put it on the public beta track. Because the public beta is just staggered from the
01:41:31 ◼ ► developer beta release, and they do that in case of trouble. So I would say, "Don't talk to your
01:41:44 ◼ ► Robin, also from the members Discord, had a question that we didn't really address in our
01:41:49 ◼ ► building of the Apple Silicon Mac. "Do you think that battery life or performance would be the most
01:42:00 ◼ ► Both, I would say. I would say that they're going to look for a balance, but I think that there are
01:42:07 ◼ ► I suspect that there is a battery life goal that they want to hit, and that there's a performance
01:42:14 ◼ ► goal they want to hit. Because I know that they want to come out and not have it be these max or
01:42:19 ◼ ► slower, right? They can't do that. So they're going to have to be faster. So the nice thing
01:42:37 ◼ ► when they want to extend battery life, they can actually prioritize items for the power saving
01:42:43 ◼ ► cores and let the performance cores sit idle. So it's not quite the same choice you'd make on
01:42:50 ◼ ► an Intel Mac, but I do think they've got performance things that they will hit, and then
01:42:56 ◼ ► they've got a battery number. They don't want the battery life to be what they want to be,
01:42:58 ◼ ► they don't want the battery life to be worse, they don't want the performance to be worse.
01:43:01 ◼ ► And then after that, my guess is they're going to want to push up incrementally until they get to
01:43:08 ◼ ► there's a certain point at which I think they're going to say the battery life's okay and let's go
01:43:13 ◼ ► for performance here. But I think they're going to actually quote really great battery life and
01:43:16 ◼ ► performance numbers. And the trick is that because these processors have both kinds of cores, what
01:43:21 ◼ ► they're going to be able to say is in this kind of work, the battery lasts, web browsing, the battery
01:43:26 ◼ ► lasts 20 hours or 15 hours or whatever. And then in super intense work, the battery will last less,
01:43:32 ◼ ► which is true now kind of, but it's really going to be potentially true with these chips. So I think
01:43:38 ◼ ► they want to push them both up, they want to meet certain boundaries. And then beyond that, I think
01:43:42 ◼ ► they are, you know, maybe on a more pro model, they'll push performance a little more and on a
01:43:47 ◼ ► more consumer model for laptops, they'll push battery life, but they want them both to be good.
01:43:52 ◼ ► >> Jason, not you, asked, what's the one iOS app that you're most looking forward to running
01:43:57 ◼ ► on your Mac? For me, it is the Time Tracker app that I use called Timery. I use a web service
01:44:04 ◼ ► called Toggle for the time tracking and they have a Mac app, but it's bad. And even just using the
01:44:12 ◼ ► iOS version of Timery would be a big upgrade, even if they don't do a catalyst version. So that's the
01:44:19 ◼ ► one that I am like really, really looking forward to being able to have that, which is one of my
01:44:23 ◼ ► favorite iOS apps. I would love to see that one come to the Mac. And if I just get it via the iOS
01:44:30 ◼ ► stuff on Apple Silicon, I'll be very, very happy. >> Do you use shortcuts with that though?
01:44:40 ◼ ► >> Because it's like, I always have the Timery app open and... Sorry, the Toggle app open on my Mac.
01:44:51 ◼ ► choose from the dropdowns. And it's way nicer, way better experience, even if I just use the iOS app.
01:44:58 ◼ ► >> All right. For me, the one that I keep thinking of is MLB@bat, the Major League Baseball app,
01:45:06 ◼ ► assuming that baseball is played at some point in the future, because they offer... It's a great app
01:45:12 ◼ ► and there's all sorts of detail in there and they have a lousy website. And this is going to be a
01:45:16 ◼ ► trend. It'll be interesting to see what apps get put in the store and what don't. But I think a
01:45:22 ◼ ► good example of why you want iOS apps on your Mac is that a lot of experiences are, "We built an app
01:45:31 ◼ ► and if you can't run it, here's our lousy website." And there are lots of websites that I would rather
01:45:39 ◼ ► use their app, but on the Mac, I can't. So video, watching video on Major League MLB@bat is better.
01:45:49 ◼ ► I want that. I don't want... Also, a lot of Flash stuff is going away and a lot of stuff was built
01:45:53 ◼ ► with Flash. And I wonder how they're going to rebuild that stuff, but the Flash apps are lousy.
01:45:59 ◼ ► So there are lots of reasons, but MLB@bat is a good example of something that I prefer their app
01:46:04 ◼ ► vastly to their website. And then like, Fairite, the iPad editing app, audio podcast editing app
01:46:13 ◼ ► that I use, that will be great when it comes to the Mac. And I'm looking forward to that too.
01:46:18 ◼ ► - Ryan asks, "How many years do you think will be on Mac OS 11 or is this a time when they increment
01:46:30 ◼ ► - I think it's going to be like 10, like it will be 11.1, 11.2. I don't think we're going to get
01:46:45 ◼ ► they were going to go for the annual incrementing, then they may have just... They may as well have
01:46:53 ◼ ► - Just to keep them all at the same. If they weren't going to... If they were going to increment
01:46:56 ◼ ► it every year, I don't think they're going to do that. I don't think they moved this year because
01:47:01 ◼ ► that's the new trend. I think they moved this year because they're making so many changes that 11
01:47:06 ◼ ► felt right. And I think it's now going to be a new number every year. Finally today, Brandon in the
01:47:11 ◼ ► Relay FM members Discord asked, "Is Apple's tag product dead or do you think they're going to
01:47:16 ◼ ► release it in the fall with the new Find My API?" Which snuck in, this one, that there is an API
01:47:24 ◼ ► that Apple have developed where you will be able to integrate your tracking product into Find My.
01:47:30 ◼ ► So for example, in theory, if you are a company like Tile who have raised an antitrust complaint
01:47:36 ◼ ► against Apple, you can integrate your application and your devices, I should say, with the Find My
01:47:44 ◼ ► app, potentially leveling a playing field a little bit more for a tracking product, which might be a
01:47:51 ◼ ► very good thing to do if you have lots of antitrust probes against your company right now.
01:47:56 ◼ ► - Yeah, when I saw this, my initial thought was, "Oh, is Apple tags not happening?" But I think
01:48:04 ◼ ► you're right. I think it's just as likely that this allows them to launch Apple tags and do what
01:48:10 ◼ ► they should be doing, right? Which is competing on the quality of their product and not the fact
01:48:14 ◼ ► that they control the Find My infrastructure. And so that way, if Tile wanted to build something
01:48:18 ◼ ► that was Find My compatible, they could do it and it would work fine. And then they're just
01:48:22 ◼ ► gonna have to compete with Apple on all of the other ways that they compete, but not that you're
01:48:28 ◼ ► barred from the Find My little mini ecosystem. So there's so much detail about those Apple tags
01:48:36 ◼ ► that it's hard to believe that they aren't gonna actually ship at some point. And this was a bad
01:48:42 ◼ ► time for that product. So maybe later it will be a better product. But it's also possible that Apple
01:48:50 ◼ ► is like, "Let's just let the third parties do it and we're not gonna bother." It's possible.
01:48:54 ◼ ► - If you would like to send in a question for a future episode of Upgrade, just send out a tweet
01:48:59 ◼ ► with the hashtag #AskUpgrade or in the Relay FM members Discord, use the command ?AskUpgrade and
01:49:06 ◼ ► you can submit your questions there. In the Upgrade Plus post show today, we're gonna talk
01:49:11 ◼ ► about some early impressions of the betas that we've been using. If you wanna sign up for Upgrade
01:49:15 ◼ ► Plus, you can go to getupgradeplus.com and sign up. Thank you to all of our wonderful members
01:49:22 ◼ ► As we mentioned, the summer of fun has begun. It happened by surprise today, but we have another
01:49:30 ◼ ► topic that we're gonna do next week, which you can prepare for at home. We're gonna be doing a
01:49:35 ◼ ► Myke at the Movies about the Hamilton movie on Disney Plus. So that's gonna be in next week's
01:49:41 ◼ ► episode. Me and Jason are both very excited about that one. Cannot wait to watch the original
01:49:47 ◼ ► Broadway cast of Hamilton. So we're gonna be doing that next week, which will be a very long-term
01:49:53 ◼ ► follow-up from the Myke at the Movies we did when I went to see Hamilton. - Myke at the matinee,
01:49:58 ◼ ► I think is what we called it. - That was it, yes. Will this be Myke at the matinee or Myke at the
01:50:02 ◼ ► Movies? I guess it's movie now, right? - Yeah, or it's upstream. Maybe it's upstream. - Oh boy.
01:50:07 ◼ ► Upstream might come back next week. I have a ton of headlines, but we just haven't had the space
01:50:12 ◼ ► to fit them in. So we've got a lot of stuff going on next week. Thank you so much for tuning in to
01:50:16 ◼ ► this week's episode of Upgrade. You can find links and information about this episode at
01:50:20 ◼ ► relate.fm/upgrade/304. I want to thank again our sponsors for this episode, Pingdom, Linode,
01:50:27 ◼ ► and Bombas. If you want to find Jason online, go to sixcolors.com, where he is @jsnell, J-S-N-E-L-L.