00:00:08 ◼ ► From Relay FM, this is Upgrade, Episode 327. Today's show is brought to you by ExpressVPN,
00:00:16 ◼ ► SaneBox, and MailRoute. My name is Myke Hurley, and I am joined by Jason Snell. Hello, Jason Snell!
00:00:23 ◼ ► Hello, Myke Hurley. We're back. We made it. We made it through. This is a normal episode of Upgrade.
00:00:29 ◼ ► I'm promising, even though we have just started it, it feels like a normal episode of Upgrade after
00:00:38 ◼ ► embargoes, interviews. Reviews. Now it's just, you know, it's your upgrade. It's just an upgrade.
00:00:44 ◼ ► It's good. Although we do have an operating system to talk about today. I guess we do. Did that come
00:00:49 ◼ ► out? Kind of. Is it, have we reached Mac OS 12 yet? Maybe. We have a #SnellTalkQuestion from Dylan,
00:00:55 ◼ ► who was inspired by last week's #SnellTalkQuestion and asks, "Jason, what is your favorite
00:01:05 ◼ ► Oh, this is a hard one. So some could be iPhone pro, iPad pro, AirPods pro, Final Cut pro. Yep.
00:01:14 ◼ ► Mac Pro, iMac Pro, Logic Pro X, which is this, I guess pro. They took the Xs away. They stole our
00:01:20 ◼ ► Xs. Cause it's not Mac OS 10 anymore. I guess that's what those meant. Get the X out. You
00:01:27 ◼ ► gotta X them out. I'm going to say the iPad pro cause I've used the iPad pro as my mobile
00:01:37 ◼ ► computing device since it was released in 2018 to this day. Still use it. So two, you know, or no,
00:01:45 ◼ ► 2016, right? For the original one. So gosh, it's been a long time now. Five years of me and the
00:01:52 ◼ ► iPad pro being BFFs. So it's gotta be the iPad pro. That's the answer. Five years of Apple pencil,
00:02:04 ◼ ► show. It was like the next year. Yeah. Okay. Wow. Yeah. That's my choice. What's your choice?
00:02:12 ◼ ► Oh, they're great. They're great. But my, my relationship with AirPods pro is more limited and
00:02:16 ◼ ► not as long running as the iPad pro. The reason I knew about the five year thing is from Apple's
00:02:23 ◼ ► photo widget because it reminded me of the first time that me and Federico met in person when he
00:02:28 ◼ ► came to London to pick up a review unit of the original iPad pro. Oh, so it was around now. And
00:02:35 ◼ ► then I looked at the day and I was like, wow, five years. You pick him up at Heathrow or something.
00:02:48 ◼ ► uh, have picked him up at Heathrow. Um, I think I took him to Heathrow that day. Oh, that's right.
00:02:53 ◼ ► That's right. I took him back. Uh, and I was waiting for all of the five years of iPad pro
00:02:58 ◼ ► articles, but nobody wrote them. I think everyone was too busy. Yeah. There was too much else going
00:03:03 ◼ ► on. Right. Well now it's time. It's time for the, that'll be my next project is 20 articles about
00:03:09 ◼ ► one. Five iPads for five years. All right. Thank you to Dylan for that snow talk question. If you
00:03:16 ◼ ► would like to send in a question to help us start the show, just send a tweet with the hashtag snow
00:03:20 ◼ ► tall question. I'll use the command, a question, Mark snow talk in the relay FM members discord.
00:03:26 ◼ ► You can get access to the discord by the way, if you sign up for upgrade plus go to get upgrade
00:03:30 ◼ ► plus.com. You get a ton of wonderful benefits, including ad free longer episodes of upgrade every
00:03:38 ◼ ► single week. So we do, we provide those to a subscribers about grade plus go to get upgrade
00:03:44 ◼ ► plus.com to find out more and sign up. Jason, it is nearly that time again, the upgrade is
00:04:00 ◼ ► towards the end of December exact. Episode date to be determined, but I'm expecting it will probably
00:04:07 ◼ ► be December 28th. I reckon it's probably when we're going to do the upgrade. So, but vote,
00:04:12 ◼ ► that means voting is now open. So we will call on you, the upgrade Ian's to help us as you have done
00:04:20 ◼ ► many years in the past to go to upgrade ease dot vote. That is where you can go. And I'll have a
00:04:28 ◼ ► link in the show notes in case you're not sure how to spell that. So you can just go and click it.
00:04:40 ◼ ► You can write in your responses or choose from the dropdowns that may exist on these pages
00:04:46 ◼ ► to help us decide best apps, games, products, stories, loads of wonderful stuff that we will
00:04:54 ◼ ► be looking at for the seventh annual upgrade ease. Jason, there is one category that I was thinking
00:05:00 ◼ ► of, cause I've been starting to think about my upgrade ease and my nominations. I should know in
00:05:04 ◼ ► case you're not too familiar with the upgrade ease. We ask for the votes of our audience,
00:05:10 ◼ ► the upgrade Ian's, and we use that along with our own picks to decide the winners. So me and Jason
00:05:16 ◼ ► bring our own nominations to the categories. We take into account what the listeners like
00:05:21 ◼ ► and what they think. And then we use that to discuss and decide who or what wins the vote
00:05:27 ◼ ► for that year. And you can find a history of all of the past upgrade ease winners at upgrade ease
00:05:33 ◼ ► dot com. We have a wonderful hall of fame there for you to go and peruse through. So you can see
00:05:40 ◼ ► who or what has won each category or each year, which is a really cool thing that means.
00:05:45 ◼ ► Yeah. Built by upgrading and Zach who also does the draft report card or draft a scorecard. So
00:05:54 ◼ ► very, very good. It's again, I'm taken back to the fact that we did this the first time and you tried
00:06:00 ◼ ► to make it the first annual and I said, no, no, no, no, no, no. It's only annual after you do
00:06:05 ◼ ► more than one. Well, look at us now. It's seven annual. But as, as I was saying, there was one
00:06:09 ◼ ► category that I think is going to be particularly difficult this year, which is the best movie
00:06:15 ◼ ► category because there's a lot of movies. Um, I think it's going to be a little trickier than
00:06:27 ◼ ► Get in your votes for Wonder Woman 84 now, which we're going to, we're going to talk about in a
00:06:30 ◼ ► minute. But, uh, like the Oscars, the upgrade is allows movies to not be released in theaters and
00:06:35 ◼ ► only on streaming this year, just for this year. My problem isn't that movies have been coming out,
00:06:41 ◼ ► so I haven't been seeing them. Okay. Well that is a problem. Yeah. And let's move so we can
00:06:47 ◼ ► actually pivot that straight into talking about upstream. Uh, but yeah, just before we, we leave
00:06:53 ◼ ► this, if you go to upgrade these dot vote, you can go ahead and cast your votes. Um, we will give you
00:06:59 ◼ ► ample notice as to when we're closing the nominations. You've got a good few weeks to go
00:07:04 ◼ ► and get your voting in. So let's talk about a couple of upstream headlines upstream is where
00:07:09 ◼ ► we take a look at news in streaming media and the technology companies that surround it. So talking
00:07:14 ◼ ► about movies coming out and movies I can't see. Wonder Woman, Wonder Woman 1984 is coming to HBO
00:07:22 ◼ ► max on December 25th. Huge news in terms of movie industry strategy. And we talked about it here
00:07:31 ◼ ► a few weeks ago, the idea that you're taking a movie that was, you spent hundreds of millions
00:07:38 ◼ ► of dollars on and are going to put it on HBO max is, I mean, it's never, it's never going to
00:07:48 ◼ ► directly earn back the money you put into it. Right. They're taking a huge loss on this. What
00:07:53 ◼ ► they get is promotion for HBO max, which it seems like HBO max kind of needs, hasn't really seems to
00:08:01 ◼ ► have gone the way that they want it. I think so. I don't know. I mean, it, it, I, I see a lot of
00:08:06 ◼ ► negativity about it. HBO max. I use HBO max a lot, but then again, I paid for HBO before and I get
00:08:11 ◼ ► HBO max with my cable subscription. So because I pay for HBO. So for me, it's like, well, yeah,
00:08:17 ◼ ► I just keep getting it and there's more stuff on it and I'm actually pretty happy about it, but,
00:08:21 ◼ ► but sure. They're in a tough battle. And the more, um, reasons you have to sign up for HBO max,
00:08:26 ◼ ► especially, I think for them right now, they've got a lot of people who get HBO on cable and
00:08:31 ◼ ► haven't signed up for HBO max. And they really want those people to kind of come over and become
00:08:36 ◼ ► HBO max customers. Like I know that it's been a thing that like, uh, it wasn't available on, uh,
00:08:42 ◼ ► was it the Amazon fire stuff and it's just become available. That's like, if you had, if your TV
00:08:52 ◼ ► uh, HBO max until now, HBO now until max. Um, the yeah, it's, and it's not on Roku yet. Um, but,
00:09:04 ◼ ► they've got all these people who are eligible for HBO max because they get HBO on their cable
00:09:09 ◼ ► company and their cable company has a deal with them to, uh, turn that into an HBO max subscription.
00:09:16 ◼ ► And that's what I'm on who haven't done it, like who haven't signed up and said, yes, convert my
00:09:22 ◼ ► collect, connect my cable to my HBO max and get me HBO max. And they want those people, right. They
00:09:27 ◼ ► want those people to be, you know, discovering the wonders of HBO max. And, um, and so maybe this
00:09:35 ◼ ► will be a motivator for that too, but they, they, yeah, they need attention and this is a good way
00:09:40 ◼ ► for them to get it. Uh, how do you quantify that in terms of money? Because HBO max is obviously
00:09:45 ◼ ► a very important thing for Warner brothers, um, Warner mania to have, um, and they want to grow
00:09:52 ◼ ► it, but it's not money in the bank today. Like movie theater ticket receipts would be. Um, I,
00:09:59 ◼ ► my understanding is also that like, they're going to have to pay, probably there had to be a
00:10:03 ◼ ► negotiation here where they're basically paying a fee. That's going to go to the people who have
00:10:08 ◼ ► a part of the, of the, um, the profit of the movie or the gross of the movie, because, um,
00:10:15 ◼ ► it's not going to make that like the assumptions that people made, if you're a producer and you've
00:10:19 ◼ ► got a little piece of the, of the net of the movie, you aren't going to get it now. Like
00:10:24 ◼ ► you negotiated that thinking it would be in a theater. So it's, it's, it's a mess. And the fact
00:10:29 ◼ ► that they've done it difficult to work out the attribution of people that signed up for HBO max
00:10:35 ◼ ► to see this movie, you know, like, so they're just like, we'll just write you a check, I guess.
00:10:39 ◼ ► Yeah. I think that that there's some of that going on. So it, in the end, it's a move where they don't
00:10:46 ◼ ► want to let it sit for another year and hope, cause, cause keep in mind, it's not just that in
00:10:52 ◼ ► a lot of places, especially in the U S movie theaters basically are shut down or if they are
00:10:57 ◼ ► open, nobody's going to them, but there's this anticipation that that's going to be the case
00:11:01 ◼ ► for a long time. And there are a bunch of movies that are stacked up now that are made and sitting.
00:11:07 ◼ ► And so they've decided to pull the trigger on this. Everybody's, you know, black widow is delayed by
00:11:13 ◼ ► Marvel. They ha they aren't putting it on Disney plus they're, they're like, no, no, no, we're
00:11:16 ◼ ► going to wait. And we're going to put in the theater, wonder woman, which is, I would say a
00:11:21 ◼ ► much bigger movie than black widow, given the track record of the previous wonder woman movie.
00:11:27 ◼ ► The it's a big move and there's a little bit of desperation, but there's a little bit of a,
00:11:31 ◼ ► wanting to prop up HBO max and also get the movie out there. It will show in the rest of the world,
00:11:37 ◼ ► which there are places. And like, you know, if you're in a place, if you're in Australia or in
00:11:43 ◼ ► Taiwan or something, movie theaters are open and it'll be fine. You can go see the movie
00:12:04 ◼ ► so we'll all agree that coronavirus means you can't go see the movie. Right. So why did I offer
00:12:09 ◼ ► no option for me in the UK? Why can't I pay $25 on iTunes? Right. It's just like, oh, you know,
00:12:17 ◼ ► you just have to work it out on your own. Well, so this, this takes us to another thing
00:12:22 ◼ ► that's happening here, which is in December for a month, December 25th to January 25th,
00:12:28 ◼ ► Wonder Woman 1984 will be on HBO max. Then it disappears. So what they're using this as is a
00:12:36 ◼ ► simultaneous with the theatrical window in parts of the world where they have a theatrical something
00:12:41 ◼ ► to happen. It'll be on HBO max and then it goes away from HBO max. So presumably on January 26th
00:12:51 ◼ ► or 25th, it goes in, it slides into the premium video on demand window, which means that that's
00:12:58 ◼ ► the moment where if you don't have HBO max or you don't want HBO max, or you can't get HBO max,
00:13:10 ◼ ► what they do the staggered where it'll be, it'll be for sale for two weeks and then it'll be for sale
00:13:14 ◼ ► and for rent after that, it's going to go into that window. So it's only unlike most movies that
00:13:20 ◼ ► come to a streaming service and then they're just on that streaming service forever. And that's it.
00:13:23 ◼ ► They want their money from Blu-rays and from online sales and from online rentals. They do
00:13:31 ◼ ► want that as much of that as they can still get. So that will still happen with this movie. It'll
00:13:36 ◼ ► just happen after the HBO max window. So really interesting. It's like the HBO max window exists
00:13:43 ◼ ► in America. Yes. There is no window here. Well, I don't know what's going to happen in the rest
00:13:48 ◼ ► of the world. I think in the rest of the world, if you're in a place where the movie theaters aren't
00:13:52 ◼ ► open, you can't see it. And then in a month, it'll, you'll be able to rent it on iTunes.
00:13:57 ◼ ► Basically wild to me, these kind of strategies just really, you know, obviously I am sensitive
00:14:04 ◼ ► to it, but they, they become frustrating. Like Warner's whole thing with HBO max has been really
00:14:09 ◼ ► annoying to me anyway, because they're making content and they're locking up stuff and they have
00:14:15 ◼ ► absolutely no known plan for international distribution or anything. Yep. You own it HBO,
00:14:23 ◼ ► right? Disney made it work. Make it work. Well, their challenge is that they have some stuff that
00:14:28 ◼ ► they don't own because they sold it internationally. Right. It's the same problem as CBS. They're
00:14:32 ◼ ► into some of the same deals as every service has this, but like Disney planned it, right?
00:14:39 ◼ ► They actually had a plan and they waited until they could get the rights back. And then they
00:14:44 ◼ ► all like, one of them had no plan. They just rushed it. This is the thing. Disney had a plan.
00:14:49 ◼ ► Warner didn't have a plan. And, and they, they did rush it because they knew with Disney coming
00:14:56 ◼ ► out into the market that they couldn't wait and launch their, if, if Warner media had said,
00:15:00 ◼ ► well, we're going to launch HBO max, but not until 2022, everybody'd be like, wow, you're,
00:15:06 ◼ ► you're dead in the water. You're doomed. They knew they had to get something out there. And that's
00:15:11 ◼ ► why it's imperfect, especially internationally. But I would, I would argue it's really no
00:15:14 ◼ ► different than CBS all access, which is about to turn into whatever paramount plus is, is some of
00:15:20 ◼ ► these companies are doing that now. Also some of these companies are doing that now and have to
00:15:27 ◼ ► struggle with their international deals and their international rollouts are going to be slow and
00:15:31 ◼ ► it's going to be super awkward, but they're at least kind of learning and starting in the U S
00:15:49 ◼ ► properties. And so their rights in conferences are less and they had longer to plan it.
00:16:02 ◼ ► right? Disney's a better rollout. Apple is a better rollout because they're not encumbered
00:16:06 ◼ ► at all, even though they're also not encumbered by familiar intellectual property, but they're not
00:16:10 ◼ ► encumbered by a lot of deals from previous iterations of their company that didn't care
00:16:16 ◼ ► about streaming and didn't care about international streaming. So I would say Warner is in the same
00:16:21 ◼ ► boat as something like CBS, Paramount, Viacom, and NBC as well. Like these big American companies
00:16:30 ◼ ► that have so many complicated deals that it's going to be very hard for them to try and compete
00:16:34 ◼ ► internationally, compete worldwide. Whereas Disney and Apple and Netflix and increasingly Amazon,
00:16:42 ◼ ► they are playing a different game because they can be everywhere in the world. So it's fascinating.
00:16:48 ◼ ► It's fascinating to watch this. There's like a sliding scale of frustration though, right?
00:16:52 ◼ ► For me, because CBS, they know they have no plan. So they've made their content available on
00:16:59 ◼ ► Netflix, right? Like you can, I can watch the Star Wars show at the Star Trek. Oh dear. I can watch
00:17:10 ◼ ► don't have a plan, but yes, Peacock and HBO Max, it's like, yeah. Yeah. But here's, but here's the
00:17:17 ◼ ► thing. They taking a feature film like this, they know that they could sell it to somebody in the UK,
00:17:24 ◼ ► but they're going to, they're going to then forego all of the money that they might get from rental
00:17:30 ◼ ► and purchase on DVD later, or I mean on, on like, or, or Blu-ray, but like any of that post that
00:17:37 ◼ ► video on demand cycle. So if you're, if you're foregoing that and theatrical, the amount of money
00:17:43 ◼ ► that you would need to be compensated by a local, by a streaming service that works in market in
00:17:48 ◼ ► order to balance it out, because you're not going to get HBO Max subscribers out of it,
00:17:55 ◼ ► it's probably more than anyone would be willing to pay. So I understand why you're sad about it,
00:17:58 ◼ ► but it's like, there's no option there. They should just sell it on December 25th outside
00:18:03 ◼ ► of America. Well, the problem is lots of parts of outside of America have movie theaters open.
00:18:08 ◼ ► It's just your country that doesn't. So that's part of the problem. Well, yeah. Anyway, moving on,
00:18:14 ◼ ► Apple have aired a Charlie Brown Thanksgiving, the animated show on PBS yesterday, and they're going
00:18:22 ◼ ► to be doing the same for Charlie Brown Christmas on December 13th. You may remember, uh, Apple
00:18:28 ◼ ► acquired the rights to these properties as well as doing a deal for more original Peanuts content.
00:18:36 ◼ ► Apple kind of knew that they were taking a tradition and put in like owning it. So they
00:18:43 ◼ ► made the announcement that they would offer these shows for free. You could even in the Apple TV app,
00:18:49 ◼ ► if you had an Apple TV, or you could watch them online or on any smart TV, anywhere Apple was,
00:18:54 ◼ ► they had a window of time where you could go and watch Thanksgiving and Christmas, uh, for free.
00:19:02 ◼ ► Nevertheless, Apple received some criticism for this and have ended up doing a deal to show and
00:19:14 ◼ ► with no commercials. And they've got, there's never any commercials on PBS. Okay. Well,
00:19:20 ◼ ► I don't know. I'm just doing what the article tells me. Uh, and they also put a note at the
00:19:35 ◼ ► but PBS didn't have commercials. So it's not like Apple's like yeah. Apple's gift here is that if
00:19:39 ◼ ► somebody wants to watch this and they only have free over the air TV, it has gotten an airing on
00:19:44 ◼ ► free over the air TV and the Christmas episode on December 23rd, the Charlie Brown Christmas,
00:19:53 ◼ ► understand Thanksgiving suffice to say the Charlie Brown Thanksgiving is awful. It's a terrible,
00:20:07 ◼ ► When we were going down to Southern California to visit grandma and grandpa for Thanksgiving.
00:20:10 ◼ ► And they would sit there with their iPods, their iPods and watch videos on them. That's
00:20:16 ◼ ► how long ago this was when my kids were little and they watched that Charlie Brown Thanksgiving
00:20:19 ◼ ► and they would demand it at various times all through the year. They'd say, Oh, let's watch
00:20:28 ◼ ► That one is really good. It's brilliant. It's a classic. So, uh, if you're just doing over the
00:20:34 ◼ ► air TV, December 13th, you can get it. If you're not an Apple TV plus person, December 11th through
00:20:39 ◼ ► the 13th, it will be just free streaming on Apple TV. Plus you don't have to be a member.
00:20:44 ◼ ► Um, the Thanksgiving one don't watch it, but it will be streaming for you later this week.
00:20:53 ◼ ► wanted this because it's like a good hook to get people to sign up. And then they ended up
00:21:08 ◼ ► All right. This episode is brought to you in part by our friends over at sane box. One of the
00:21:15 ◼ ► biggest time wasters for work is email. You don't even, you don't have to blink twice. I don't think
00:21:20 ◼ ► twice to answer that question. We all know that we spend so much time in email so much time.
00:21:27 ◼ ► Is wasted. Studies have been found like so much of our time, right? Managers are spending
00:21:33 ◼ ► hours and hours a day looking in their inbox. They're spending time on emails that should
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00:21:42 ◼ ► relate to, right? That you're getting these emails coming in. It's like, why did I even get this
00:21:47 ◼ ► email or like, what's this email even meant for me? Because it doesn't apply to me at all.
00:21:52 ◼ ► Let alone stuff like newsletters that you don't want or spam that you're getting all the time.
00:21:58 ◼ ► You don't want to deal with any of this time wasting email. That's why you need sane box.
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00:22:57 ◼ ► sane news and sane later is the two other filters that you can get. Sane news looks at your email
00:23:03 ◼ ► coming in and if it seems like it's a newsletter, we'll just filter it away, which is great because
00:23:07 ◼ ► then it means that all my newsletters are in one place so I can go and read them at my own leisure
00:23:12 ◼ ► and sane later tries to assess if an email is not worth your time right now. Maybe it's from
00:23:17 ◼ ► a new sender or it seems like it's got content like sane. It's very clever the way sane box filters
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00:24:14 ◼ ► basically any developer that earns under a million dollars a year can qualify for a reduced 15%
00:24:19 ◼ ► commission on sales in the App Store. So Apple are slicing their cut in half from 30 to 15%.
00:24:25 ◼ ► There are still some more details to come but in a nutshell, you get that 15% if you earn under a
00:24:32 ◼ ► million dollars a year. If you cross a million in a year, the 30% will kick in for anything on top of
00:24:39 ◼ ► that one million dollars of revenue for you so that Apple will take their cut at a larger rate.
00:24:48 ◼ ► the next year you will go to 30% and you can reapply to the program if you fall below a million
00:24:55 ◼ ► dollars again and then you're back in the program the following year. I wanted to just get your
00:25:00 ◼ ► thoughts on this. How does this deal strike you? Especially now it's been a few days so we've seen
00:25:04 ◼ ► a lot of people talking about it and stuff like that. It's interesting that it's not just a cut
00:25:11 ◼ ► but it's a special program, right? It's a little like saying HBO Max really wants you to sign up
00:25:22 ◼ ► for it even though you get it. You just have to sign up for it. Well, this is the other version
00:25:27 ◼ ► of that which is you get a big cut but you have to apply for it. You know, a reduction in this.
00:25:33 ◼ ► This is a 20% what? 20% ish? A little more than that increase in revenue from the perspective of
00:25:56 ◼ ► So it's about PR. It's about changing people's perception of Apple and the funny thing is
00:26:04 ◼ ► for those who have been criticizing Apple, and that is things like Epic Games and David
00:26:10 ◼ ► Henemeyer-Hanson from Basecamp, they were all really infuriated by this. And like DHH went on
00:26:26 ◼ ► -Tim Sweeney, similarly. And I'm not surprised they reacted that way because they're essentially
00:26:34 ◼ ► in a political and PR battle with Apple where they want governments essentially to step in
00:26:40 ◼ ► and change Apple's behavior. And so any move Apple makes that makes it harder for them to do that,
00:26:55 ◼ ► legitimately improving the lives of all of its small app developers, giving them a 20% raise.
00:27:04 ◼ ► These are the heartwarming indie developer stories and small business stories that we've heard about
00:27:11 ◼ ► before and we will definitely hear about more now that Apple has done this. It also puts people like
00:27:18 ◼ ► Epic Games in opposition to those people. It reframes this conversation from being "Apple's
00:27:26 ◼ ► taking too much money from developers" to "Apple's taking too much money from big/rich developers."
00:27:36 ◼ ► And it reframes the story as a couple of rich guys fighting over a quarter they found on the street,
00:27:44 ◼ ► right? Which is sort of like, "Who cares? It's a couple of rich guys. I don't care." And again,
00:27:49 ◼ ► I'm not saying—I'm just talking about perception here, right? I'm talking about perception here.
00:27:58 ◼ ► small developers who are so helped by this and it makes Epic seem even more like, you know,
00:28:05 ◼ ► "We make a lot of money but not quite enough. Apple should give us more money because why not?
00:28:13 ◼ ► Because we want it." So I understand why they reacted the way they did because this is a really
00:28:19 ◼ ► good PR move by Apple. Now, is it a PR move? Yes, it is. It also is really good and helps a lot of
00:28:25 ◼ ► people. There are lots of issues. I thought it was really funny. A lot of people have been picking
00:28:29 ◼ ► into the details of this and saying it doesn't really make sense in a few places. Apple's
00:28:34 ◼ ► statement on this specifically said that details would be revealed in December. So I feel like
00:28:39 ◼ ► maybe some of the details everybody's asking for are details that are just not announced yet.
00:28:45 ◼ ► I wouldn't have been surprised too if they took a view here of like, "Let's see how this is received
00:28:53 ◼ ► and then we can tweak it a little bit if we need to." Well, yeah, don't be specific about it and
00:28:59 ◼ ► see what people criticize about it and then address those criticisms when you officially
00:29:03 ◼ ► launch it. Because the big criticism is that the way it works is very bad if you're somebody who
00:29:10 ◼ ► is... If you're a small business, and it wouldn't be like an indie developer probably, but like a
00:29:17 ◼ ► small development shop and you've got apps and you're about to go over a million, it's really
00:29:22 ◼ ► bad. If you go over a million but your business just hovers around a million, if you go over a
00:29:28 ◼ ► million, the next year you are at 30%. And if you go under a million, then you can go back,
00:29:36 ◼ ► but you've lost a year. You've lost that 20% raise basically for a year. And so a bunch of the
00:29:42 ◼ ► criticism of this is Apple should probably phase this in and say the first million you make is
00:29:48 ◼ ► taxed at 15% and then thereafter it's 30%. But Apple seems to not want to do that because
00:29:57 ◼ ► they've cast this as a program that you have to apply for. And also I think that means they
00:30:02 ◼ ► really want to take every dollar they can from the big developers even if it's their first million,
00:30:07 ◼ ► which fair enough, fair enough. But I wonder if there's some other way to tweak this so that
00:30:12 ◼ ► for developers... I mean, it could be as simple as saying it's... When you're in the program,
00:30:20 ◼ ► the program takes your first million at 15 and then the next half a million, let's say, at 30.
00:30:29 ◼ ► But as long as you stay under half a million and a half, you're eligible for the program the next
00:30:35 ◼ ► year or something. There are ways to make this a little bit less punitive because you may end up in
00:30:40 ◼ ► a situation where a company gets to December and is almost at a million and they almost want to
00:30:47 ◼ ► sabotage their revenue. They almost want to remove their apps from the store for the rest of the year
00:30:53 ◼ ► so they don't go over. And is that conducive to the spirit of what Apple's trying to do here,
00:30:58 ◼ ► that somebody who makes a million and one dollars is going to end up losing a large chunk of their
00:31:04 ◼ ► revenue for one year, whereas somebody who makes $999,999 doesn't? I know these are edge cases,
00:31:13 ◼ ► but this is the stuff that's come up. And I would imagine that Apple is looking at that and saying,
00:31:17 ◼ ► "How do we soften the blow so we don't have people in this really weird in-between case?"
00:31:21 ◼ ► Because honestly, not only is that kind of unfair, it's also potentially bad PR, right? Like,
00:31:27 ◼ ► the last thing you want is a sad story about how a successful app-developing company had to lay off
00:31:33 ◼ ► people because they fell over the million-dollar mark and therefore are going to see their revenue
00:31:40 ◼ ► go down. That's a bad... You don't want that. You don't want that kind of story. You just want it to
00:31:45 ◼ ► be that the rich guys in the store keep paying you 30%. So I think it's a brilliant move that's
00:31:52 ◼ ► going to be great for all the people we know who are small developers. I think it's a brilliant
00:31:57 ◼ ► move for Apple in the sense that it makes the arguments of their opponents tougher. I don't
00:32:06 ◼ ► know if it necessarily is going to actually get Apple, allow Apple to escape from the various
00:32:14 ◼ ► regulatory scrutiny, scrutinies that they have invited from you and from the US and elsewhere,
00:32:27 ◼ ► can governments step in. It's also a matter of what is a government's priority in terms
00:32:35 ◼ ► of regulating big tech. And has Apple defused the situation just enough that it's dropped
00:32:50 ◼ ► >> Well, it's a shrewd move, right? Because it really severely undermines the arguments of people
00:32:59 ◼ ► like Sweeney and Hannah Maya Hanson. Because what are they arguing? That the rich should continue to
00:33:06 ◼ ► get richer? Because that's the argument now. >> Yes, yes. They're forced to make that argument.
00:33:11 ◼ ► And you can cast it differently. You can cast it as, but it's still unfair. But they can no longer
00:33:15 ◼ ► say, oh, but what about the little guy? We're the champions of the little guy. Apple's like,
00:33:21 ◼ ► >> And I think I've made my point very clear many times in that my main issue with this has always
00:33:27 ◼ ► been Apple telling, not main, but one of my main issues is Apple telling big businesses how to run
00:33:33 ◼ ► their businesses. That's always been a big problem for me because it feels to me like there are two
00:33:40 ◼ ► big issues here. One is the one that Apple is now trying to fix. And then there is the other one
00:33:44 ◼ ► where you've got the Sweeney's and Hannah Maya Hanson's of the world. They have large companies.
00:33:47 ◼ ► And why should Apple as another large company be able to dictate rules to them? That's one thing.
00:33:52 ◼ ► But that's the rules thing. The money thing. Now the money thing affects people that don't have
00:33:57 ◼ ► so much money. And so it gets a lot trickier now, especially because what this is affecting is that
00:34:04 ◼ ► middle band because there is a top tier, which we know about that can get special deals. Like if
00:34:09 ◼ ► you're a big enough company. But it does definitely diffuse their argument a bit. Like they can still
00:34:16 ◼ ► make lots of very valid arguments about Apple's control and all that kind of stuff. But if you
00:34:21 ◼ ► look at the stuff that Apple started to put into place over the last few months, you can see them
00:34:26 ◼ ► starting to really like make some holes in areas that they think is important. So like one is this,
00:34:33 ◼ ► one is this, um, there was some leaked code, which suggests that like, um, start up on iOS 14,
00:34:41 ◼ ► uh, with a new phone, you will be recommended third party apps to try out. They've done that
00:34:46 ◼ ► thing now where you can change some default applications. Like these are little release
00:34:51 ◼ ► valves that Apple is choosing to let go, which starts to deflate the arguments of these larger
00:34:58 ◼ ► individuals. It's what we've been saying for a while now, while this story has been going on,
00:35:02 ◼ ► which is the great threat to Apple is that they, the threat is not, Oh no, um, we, we don't want
00:35:13 ◼ ► to change anything, right? Cause something has to change. The threat is can Apple change itself
00:35:18 ◼ ► enough in small ways to avoid an outside entity changing them? Because what you really don't want
00:35:26 ◼ ► is an outside entity telling you what to do. Laws being passed regulations from, from regulators
00:35:33 ◼ ► being applied to you, court cases being lost that lead an external force to dictate how you run your
00:35:40 ◼ ► business. Nobody wants that. Apple especially does not want that to happen. And I always was baffled
00:35:45 ◼ ► about why Apple seemed to be not doing anything because that's an enormous threat to them. So here
00:35:51 ◼ ► we are. And the answer is they were working on it. And their, their plan is to make very small
00:35:56 ◼ ► changes at the margins that they think will give them enough of a PR win to make it much harder to
00:36:03 ◼ ► argue that Apple needs to be regulated, which is interesting because I think that they are being
00:36:09 ◼ ► very conservative in what they do about this. They're not going to give away the store. It would
00:36:12 ◼ ► have been way easier actually for them to say first million is 15 and then your second million
00:36:17 ◼ ► and up is 30. And instead they're like, well, we're going to do this program. And once you go
00:36:21 ◼ ► past it, then you're not in it anymore. And like that, that's a conservative way of doing it that
00:36:26 ◼ ► they didn't necessarily have to do, but it shows that they, they wanted to, they still want the
00:36:31 ◼ ► money from everybody else, right at 30%. So it's it, but it is a, uh, an interesting strategy. I
00:36:40 ◼ ► think it does take the wind out of the sales of their, of, um, a lot of their critics and will it
00:36:45 ◼ ► be enough? Probably not, but there's probably more they can do around the edges, but it definitely
00:36:50 ◼ ► like, I understand, like, was it, I think it was Tim Sweeney that likened their struggle to the
00:36:57 ◼ ► civil rights movement and, uh, suffice it to say, he got a lot of blowback for that one. It's like,
00:37:02 ◼ ► what are you doing, man? That was a bad quote. It's an own goal, uh, PR move. And this is the
00:37:08 ◼ ► thing is though, like I said, I understand why they're upset. It's because Apple made a really
00:37:13 ◼ ► good chess move here and their position is weaker now. It doesn't mean that they can't win. Doesn't
00:37:18 ◼ ► mean that they don't have more to do, but I can see them getting furious on the internet. And,
00:37:25 ◼ ► uh, I get it because they're, they're angry with Apple because Apple has made their job of, of
00:37:32 ◼ ► fighting Apple harder by doing this. So anyway, it is, I just want to like, it's a funny story.
00:37:37 ◼ ► The, the, to sum it up, it is a PR move by Apple. Apple wants to avoid regulation. Apple wants to
00:37:45 ◼ ► clamp down on criticism of, uh, Apple taking too much money away from developers. In doing so,
00:37:52 ◼ ► Apple has given a windfall to small developers, to the smallest, but I would say probably the largest
00:38:00 ◼ ► number of Apple developers while not having to actually give away a whole lot of money because
00:38:04 ◼ ► these aren't the big fish. These are the small fish, the people we know, but it's the small fry
00:38:09 ◼ ► here. And so it's quite a move because it gives them a PR win. It makes them, uh, be able to tell
00:38:16 ◼ ► all these heartwarming stories about small developers. They don't give away a lot of their
00:38:19 ◼ ► money in doing so. Um, and we'll see, we'll see how it plays. So I think it's fascinating from
00:38:26 ◼ ► that perspective. Um, if you're somebody who fundamentally believes that there's nothing Apple
00:38:30 ◼ ► provides that's worth 30% cut, then I don't think this changes your opinion about it. But, um, I've
00:38:36 ◼ ► heard from a lot of the small developers who are pretty happy with this because, and they do say,
00:38:41 ◼ ► like, even a 15%, it's like, well, there is a lot that Apple does do for a small developer that
00:38:46 ◼ ► they're grateful for. And that's the other part of this is that, um, a big developer probably has no
00:38:51 ◼ ► problem, uh, hiring lawyers and accountants to do, to get them, you know, taxes in every, uh, country
00:38:58 ◼ ► and, and certified in every country and all those things. And the little developers can't do that
00:39:02 ◼ ► either. And they rely on Apple for that. And Apple is providing a very nice service for that now 15%
00:39:08 ◼ ► that they're taking. But, um, as I think it was John Syracuse on ATP last week pointed out,
00:39:13 ◼ ► what this doesn't change is Apple's absolute power, right? Which is what Apple wants. Apple wants to
00:39:19 ◼ ► be a benevolent, uh, ruler of the app store and grant more money to its smallest developers.
00:39:39 ◼ ► >> So the M1 Macs have been around, uh, with the public for a week, with people like Jason
00:39:49 ◼ ► for a couple of weeks. And there was just a few things. I had some impressions that I wanted to
00:39:53 ◼ ► go through, but I wanted to just mention a couple of, uh, interesting things that have been, that
00:39:58 ◼ ► have come my way in the last week or so. And there was a really interesting, uh, very in-depth
00:40:03 ◼ ► interview on Ars Technica. Um, and it was with Jaws, Federighi and Srouji talking about the, uh,
00:40:10 ◼ ► M1 Mac and the transition to Apple Silicon for the Mac. Um, and there were a couple of things that I
00:40:16 ◼ ► really liked that I wanted to point out. One of them was from, uh, joining Srouji talking about
00:40:20 ◼ ► the M1 saying it's not like some iPhone chip that is on steroids. It's a whole different custom chip,
00:40:37 ◼ ► which is basically that the M1, yes, you can say that the architecture seems very similar
00:40:45 ◼ ► to what they've been doing with their iPhones and iPads, but just in the sense of like,
00:40:51 ◼ ► that's how Apple knows how to make chips now. Yeah. I view this as being something that can
00:41:03 ◼ ► A12X, which then becomes the A12Z. I mean, literally it's from seven GPU cores to eight.
00:41:11 ◼ ► So you can see that in the MacBook air with the M1, right? Core counts the same between those
00:41:15 ◼ ► two chips, the M1 and the A12X/Z. So what he's saying here is we knew these chips would be in
00:41:25 ◼ ► Macs and we needed to put things in them that Macs would need. And we needed to be aware of Mac
00:41:32 ◼ ► usage, like how code executes in Mac OS so that it was efficient and actually worked with Mac OS
00:41:40 ◼ ► stuff. Like, of course, of course, I don't think that changes the fact that in all likelihood,
00:41:52 ◼ ► No. There's nothing wrong with that. But I feel like, I feel like it's an interesting statement
00:41:56 ◼ ► here because what he's really saying is, no, we didn't just take a chip we made for the iPad and
00:42:01 ◼ ► stick it in a Mac. Of course they did. And that's what, that is what I'm trying to get at too,
00:42:05 ◼ ► because I mean, I think there's been quite a lot of conversation where people were just saying like,
00:42:17 ◼ ► that's the right way to look at it. It's like Apple knows how to make chips in a certain way
00:42:23 ◼ ► that do what they want. But I believe, I believe that the Mac chips are going to go in their own
00:42:32 ◼ ► direction now. And like, this is just the starting point because if we're going to say these are
00:42:37 ◼ ► always iPhone chips, we're going to start to bump into some real weird stuff when we start scaling
00:42:44 ◼ ► these chips up to get into the Mac Pro. Like, does it mean that then my iPhone could also somehow
00:42:50 ◼ ► support six Thunderbolt ports? No, I think, I think it's the same as saying that the A12X
00:42:58 ◼ ► is just a scaled iPhone chip a little bit, right? Which is, well, they added a bunch of cores and
00:43:07 ◼ ► over time, I think what's really happening is Apple is taking that architecture and it's
00:43:11 ◼ ► spreading it apart. And this is really not any different from what you just said. It is,
00:43:14 ◼ ► they're spreading it apart. Of course, a high-end chip for a Mac Pro is going to be different from
00:43:20 ◼ ► an iPhone chip, even if the fundamental architecture is the same. The cores are the same.
00:43:26 ◼ ► You're going to add, as you grow that thing, you're going to add features to it. So maybe the
00:43:31 ◼ ► next step up, which is the M1, has, you know, they've integrated RAM on the package and it's
00:43:39 ◼ ► got more cores. There's maybe a future one that the RAM is off the package and, or the RAM ceiling
00:43:47 ◼ ► is higher. Maybe there are more Thunderbolt lanes for it to take advantage of, as opposed to just
00:43:53 ◼ ► sort of the two lanes that are on the M1. Maybe there are other external things, but they like,
00:43:59 ◼ ► they build modularly up. So you could, you know, you could look at a Mac Pro Apple Silicon chip,
00:44:06 ◼ ► probably, and look at it and see, it's like the lizard brain in a human being, right? Like,
00:44:13 ◼ ► you can see the part that is the same in the human brain and the lizard brain, but it's the
00:44:17 ◼ ► whole lizard brain and the human brain's got way more stuff on it. It's kind of like that,
00:44:20 ◼ ► I think, where it's like, you'll be able to point at a Mac Pro Apple Silicon chip and say,
00:44:25 ◼ ► there's the A16, whatever, but around it is all this stuff that the A16 doesn't need because it's
00:44:35 ◼ ► just for the iPhone. And then, and I think the story of, of the Mac product line over time and
00:44:39 ◼ ► Apple's product line over time entirely is probably going to be, there's the chip, the A
00:44:44 ◼ ► whatever chip that's in the iPhone. There's a chip that's a step up from that that's in probably the
00:44:49 ◼ ► iPad Pro and the low-end Macs, whether they call it that or not, but it's probably a very similar
00:44:55 ◼ ► chip. And then there'll be like another step up above that and maybe another step up above that.
00:45:00 ◼ ► And that's how they'll do it. But I think it's interesting that like, I don't think this is a
00:45:04 ◼ ► matter of them saying, oh, well, we, now it's time to make a Mac chip. I think what they did was they
00:45:10 ◼ ► took the, the A14X and that was like, there, we're on our way to making a Mac chip, but there's more
00:45:18 ◼ ► work to be done. And anybody who used the developer kits over the summer, they were on an A14Z,
00:45:25 ◼ ► there were some features that they didn't have and the performance wasn't the same, but it ran.
00:45:29 ◼ ► And, and in the meantime, over two years, cause I'll also point out there was, so there's the A12Z
00:45:36 ◼ ► and there's the M1. There's never an A13X, right? I, I'm starting to suspect that the reason there
00:45:45 ◼ ► was never an A13X is because they took that two years to build the M1, to evolve that A12X/Z
00:45:52 ◼ ► into something that wasn't an A14X, but was the M1. But still, I mean, it's the same course. Like,
00:45:58 ◼ ► I think that that was what they were doing all along. Anyway, it's, it's great. They're,
00:46:03 ◼ ► they're, they overshot, right? That was the other line that made me laugh is in that Federighi
00:46:07 ◼ ► article was, you know, we knew they were going to be good, but we kind of overshot it a little bit,
00:46:12 ◼ ► like they're, the, the, how good the performance is on them. There's also an important part,
00:46:17 ◼ ► which is something that we'd all piece together, I think, but it's now good to hear Apple say,
00:46:22 ◼ ► which is effectively that Windows on M1 is now the ball is in Microsoft's court. So the full quote
00:46:29 ◼ ► from Craig Federighi, we have the core technologies for them to do that, to run their own version of
00:46:33 ◼ ► Windows, which in turn of course supports x86 user mode applications, but that's the decision
00:46:38 ◼ ► Microsoft has to make to bring, to license that technology for users to run on these Macs. But
00:46:44 ◼ ► the Macs are certainly very capable of it. So there is an addendum that I will make, which is
00:46:49 ◼ ► you don't want to run it. Like if, if you are thinking like I want bootcamp, you do not want
00:46:57 ◼ ► the ARM version of Windows because the ARM version of Windows runs x86 applications very poorly.
00:47:04 ◼ ► So, you know, if you need it, if you think you want it because like it will get you out of a jam,
00:47:09 ◼ ► then yeah, maybe, but if you want it because you want to play games, you're not going to have a fun
00:47:20 ◼ ► Silicon for the foreseeable future until they do something that really changes the story. Just
00:47:24 ◼ ► don't. Apple makes a lot of very capable Intel Macs. You may have one already. I would stick with
00:47:30 ◼ ► that. Right? I would stick with that because although I have a lot of enthusiasm and optimism
00:47:39 ◼ ► for Windows somehow coming to Apple Silicon at some point because I think there's, I think
00:47:44 ◼ ► Microsoft is motivated and Apple is motivated to make it happen. Microsoft is very motivated to
00:47:48 ◼ ► put, to get like Windows on ARM a thing, but it's just, their develop, the development community is
00:47:54 ◼ ► not, for some reason, not embracing it in the same way that they have for Apple Silicon. So like as
00:48:01 ◼ ► Carl's saying in the chat room, there is not, I don't believe there is a Chrome version for Windows
00:48:09 ◼ ► on ARM, but there is one for Apple Silicon already. Right? And Windows on ARM has been around for a
00:48:15 ◼ ► while. Like Microsoft have released their own Surface products with ARM chips in them. The
00:48:20 ◼ ► Surface X, I think is like over a year old at this point, runs the ARM version of Windows,
00:48:25 ◼ ► but just very badly. So it's interesting. I don't know what Apple's doing to convince them.
00:48:31 ◼ ► - We pit Microsoft and Apple against each other even now and I don't think that's right. It's like
00:48:37 ◼ ► Microsoft looks at what Apple is doing and first off, I think Microsoft looks at what Apple is
00:48:41 ◼ ► doing and says, "Oh, well that'll help motivate people to build ARM PCs." Right? Like, "Oh yeah,
00:48:49 ◼ ► maybe Intel is not going to do it for a lot of people and they're going to move toward more ARM
00:48:55 ◼ ► PCs." So that gives some more wind in the sales of Windows on ARM. And then secondly, it's not
00:49:02 ◼ ► their core audience, but like a portion of the Windows audience does want to run Windows inside
00:49:07 ◼ ► of virtualization or on a partition on a Mac. And Microsoft, I think is into that and is okay with
00:49:15 ◼ ► that. And that's just another Microsoft customer and they like that. So I think the issue is that
00:49:22 ◼ ► Windows on ARM is just too early days right now and they don't even sell a copy. It's only on
00:49:28 ◼ ► systems that are ARM systems, right? So they don't even have a box you can buy or a license you can
00:49:35 ◼ ► get to download an image to put on a Mac if they could run it. They're not there yet, but I feel
00:49:42 ◼ ► like they probably will be. And given that Parallels and VMware are going to do virtualization
00:49:48 ◼ ► of ARM-based operating systems on Apple Silicon and that that's already underway, the logical next
00:49:54 ◼ ► step is probably that at some point here, Microsoft will make a version of Windows for ARM that will
00:50:00 ◼ ► run on those virtual machines inside Apple Silicon. I just, I think it's going to happen. It's just
00:50:06 ◼ ► going to take time. And the good news is Intel Macs still exist if you care. And PCs exist. I mean,
00:50:13 ◼ ► you don't just get a PC laptop and do that too. - Honestly, for a lot of options, this is probably
00:50:17 ◼ ► the best choice, right? Because as well, with the power of Apple Silicon chips, you might not need
00:50:21 ◼ ► to buy as expensive a Mac anymore. So the money you save just by a Windows laptop. Is Apple
00:50:27 ◼ ► Silicon ready.com? Terrible name to say out loud, but it could be a useful resource for you. If you
00:50:35 ◼ ► have a specific application that you need to know if one, it runs in Rosetta 2, because not every
00:50:41 ◼ ► app does or not every app does very well. Or if you want to make sure if something is Apple Silicon
00:50:46 ◼ ► optimized, you can go to this website. It has a large selection of applications and you may be
00:50:51 ◼ ► able to check if your one is there. Again, like, you know, I have very fond memories of
00:51:01 ◼ ► the original transition, right? I'm probably going to keep bringing this up a lot now because it's
00:51:05 ◼ ► just, it means something to me. It's like my first real foray into the Mac. I remember all these
00:51:10 ◼ ► types of websites for the original Rosetta, right? Like, how well does it run and that kind of stuff.
00:51:16 ◼ ► So it's good to have these kinds of resources around, I think. - Yeah, it's great. Yeah,
00:51:22 ◼ ► it's not the best name. It's all those words run together too. So you can say whatever ISAP
00:51:28 ◼ ► Le Silicon Rede? I don't know. I mean, there's many ways you can pronounce is Apple Silicon
00:51:34 ◼ ► Rede, but it's good to see that. And it's funny, you know, the short version, we're going to talk
00:51:40 ◼ ► about, you and I have both been using these a lot because we both bought our own too. So I got out
00:51:46 ◼ ► of reviewer mode and I spent the last week as user mode, and then you got yours and you've been using
00:51:51 ◼ ► it too. Like there are, the short version is, is Apple Silicon Rede for almost everything?
00:51:58 ◼ ► The answer is yes. Even if it's just running in Rosetta, it runs fine. There are some very
00:52:02 ◼ ► peculiar, like I said last week, edge cases where something doesn't quite work right. Some of that
00:52:08 ◼ ► stuff is big Sur related and some of it is Silicon related, but it's all headed down the path. The
00:52:14 ◼ ► fact that like day and date, there was an Apple Silicon beta Photoshop available that you could
00:52:19 ◼ ► run side by side with a regular Photoshop if you wanted to, to like use this. And when it doesn't
00:52:24 ◼ ► do something right, you use the other one. It's all happening fast. So it's a good site to look at.
00:52:30 ◼ ► But it's going to be like, there's a music plugin that doesn't work or there's something very
00:52:36 ◼ ► technical and specific. You should check first before you move house to an Apple Silicon Mac.
00:52:50 ◼ ► and over that period of time, uh, I have made it my main machine. So it's very easy to lift off,
00:53:04 ◼ ► it's funny that they don't have to check anymore. He like, he's been like, Oh, what chip did I get?
00:53:09 ◼ ► Like nice. It's easy now. Very easy to remember. Um, and yeah, so I have all day been using this
00:53:16 ◼ ► machine. I have a shoot every other machine that I have except for recording audio because the audio
00:53:22 ◼ ► recording problems are big. So related, it's a little bit shaky with some of the tools that I use.
00:53:27 ◼ ► So rather than, uh, putting that to risk, I'm just recording on my iMac pro. Um, Rosetta 2 is
00:53:36 ◼ ► unbelievable. It is unbelievable for him. Pretty much every instance, there is no way for me to
00:53:44 ◼ ► know if an app is not native. I don't know. Like it's, you know, I have to check by going to get
00:53:51 ◼ ► info and seeing if it tells me that's the way I know if an app is native or not. Yeah. For those
00:53:56 ◼ ► who don't know, if you select an application and choose command I to do get info, it actually says
00:54:01 ◼ ► what kind of application it is Intel, Apple, Silicon or universal. Um, and you can see it
00:54:06 ◼ ► right there, just like in the old days of the Intel transition 15 years ago and, and something
00:54:11 ◼ ► else that has come up that I realize now is exactly what I said 15 years ago is not only if
00:54:17 ◼ ► you buy an Apple Silicon Mac, will all of this stuff just basically work. It is the very rare
00:54:24 ◼ ► case where things will get faster over time because updates will come out that turn your
00:54:30 ◼ ► Rosetta apps into native apps and they'll just be faster then. So they'll start a little slower and
00:54:35 ◼ ► then they'll just keep getting faster, which is pretty unusual for computers. Right. And it's
00:54:40 ◼ ► pretty great. Yeah. So on that note, apps load just unbelievably quickly. Like if I open logic
00:54:52 ◼ ► on my iMac Pro and I have a, like many of our friends do, uh, a eight core Mac Pro from 27,
00:55:10 ◼ ► When I open a logic on this takes a few seconds and it's always been like that. Logic has always
00:55:16 ◼ ► taken a beat to open, but on my Mac Pro one bounce and logic is open, which I have never seen that
00:55:24 ◼ ► before. I've just never seen that. I got to think that that is in part this new unified memory
00:55:28 ◼ ► architecture that it's just has the ability to load stuff into memory so much faster. Yeah. It's
00:55:33 ◼ ► just there waiting all the time. Right. Yeah. It's done some advanced machine learning. It's using a
00:55:37 ◼ ► camera to look at your face and it recognizes that your face looks like it's about to launch logic.
00:55:46 ◼ ► it's like, Oh, here it is. That's not actually what happens yet, but will probably happen in
00:55:50 ◼ ► the next few years. So I ran some bake-offs and, uh, logic pro exporting on the M one is slower
00:55:58 ◼ ► than my iMac Pro. So, you know, I, I did some like, like, right. I'm racing these machines
00:56:03 ◼ ► against each other and it is slower. I just, to be clear, you're, you're racing an iMac Pro
00:56:08 ◼ ► against a little laptop. I know I did this because, you know, there are lots of examples,
00:56:13 ◼ ► like all of our developer friends, you know, like it's the opposite for them that, you know,
00:56:17 ◼ ► like their apps are compiling and you did this too faster on the M one. No, I just think it's funny
00:56:22 ◼ ► that we're, we're, we're talking about an iMac Pro against a little laptop because there's a huge
00:56:27 ◼ ► imbalance there, but that's, this is where we are. Cause I did the same reason that I even thought I
00:56:32 ◼ ► could try this. Jason is I have never experienced in app performance in logic. Like I have
00:56:38 ◼ ► experienced on this machine. It is absolutely fluid and responsive in a way I have never
00:56:45 ◼ ► felt like zoom in and out panning around dragging, like everything is instant and is moving under my
00:56:55 ◼ ► mouse perfectly. Right. So something that I will very frequently have is I select all of a thing
00:57:02 ◼ ► and we'll drag it and I'll have to kind of wait for it to catch up. This is very normal for my
00:57:07 ◼ ► Mac Pro. And this is because I am dealing with sometimes very large files, like four, five gigabyte
00:57:13 ◼ ► logic projects with 1500 cuts in them. Right. Like I'm really pushing logic in a way that it does not
00:57:21 ◼ ► expect to be used. Right. Like Apple, Apple very frequently, uh, is optimizing for, you know, 15,000
00:57:29 ◼ ► uh, uh, instruments, but they're for three minutes. Right. Uh, I am doing things in a very opposite
00:57:36 ◼ ► way of that of like, here's a three hour audio file, but there's only three tracks, but there's
00:57:41 ◼ ► lots and lots and lots of cuts, lots of things to keep track of. And the performance that I have
00:57:46 ◼ ► experienced is just so different. It is so, so different. And honestly, the way I could describe
00:57:55 ◼ ► it is it feels like an iPad in that way where everything is responsive in a way that I have not
00:58:04 ◼ ► seen from a Mac in the past. So that is the biggest change for me. So I did a similar kind of, uh,
00:58:13 ◼ ► podcasting workflow test on my MacBook Air. And, uh, what I found is like you, there are certain
00:58:20 ◼ ► things that are faster on the iMac Pro. Um, I, I did a de-noising test of a long file using iZotope,
00:58:28 ◼ ► which is running in Rosetta, I will say. So when it goes to native Apple Silicon, it may be faster
00:58:33 ◼ ► on the, on the MacBook Air, but for now that was a faster, that's my, that's the task I bought the
00:58:38 ◼ ► iMac Pro for. And it is faster at that. Like it is, that is a fully multi-threaded and that the
00:58:45 ◼ ► Xeon processor cranks away on that and it does a great job. So that's faster, not like spectacularly
00:58:51 ◼ ► faster, but it is faster. But you're right. Everything else that I did felt, uh, fluid. And
00:58:58 ◼ ► even in iZotope, the de-noising app that I use for this, doing all of the, like opening the files,
00:59:05 ◼ ► saving the files, selecting all of that stuff was far more fluid and far less laggy. And, you know,
00:59:12 ◼ ► please wait, please wait, please wait while I load this progress bar slow, slow, slow. All that stuff
00:59:18 ◼ ► was way faster. So, um, it's, it's an interesting mixture, right? Of the stuff that is, um, that is
00:59:26 ◼ ► not as accelerated, I think because of Rosetta in a lot of cases and the stuff that is, um, is more
00:59:33 ◼ ► accelerated or maybe even some of it is stuff where the particular configuration of the iMac Pro
00:59:37 ◼ ► is built for that. And the M1 is trying its best and is doing a pretty good job, but is not,
00:59:45 ◼ ► is not up to the standard, believe it or not, of a Xeon processor, which of course it's not.
00:59:49 ◼ ► It's amazing how close it gets though. Yeah. Cause they're both eight core, but my iMac Pro
01:00:01 ◼ ► but it's picking up with the memory bandwidth and the, and maybe even the SSD speed, it's picking up
01:00:06 ◼ ► benefits there that show in different places. So it is, I mean, yeah, it feels, the whole thing
01:00:15 ◼ ► just feels so, so fluid. Um, in general. Two of the most taxing things that I expect that I'm doing
01:00:20 ◼ ► with my machine are before and after the edit process. So one is I bring my files into Adobe
01:00:27 ◼ ► Audition and do the match loudness that they have in Adobe Audition, which I really love. So it
01:00:33 ◼ ► basically just levels my audio files to a particular loudness. That, that and forecast,
01:00:41 ◼ ► which is Marco Ahmet's tool for, um, taking a file and adding the chapters and also doing the final
01:00:47 ◼ ► compression from wave to MP3. Those two things. That kills the cores, right? That's the whole
01:00:54 ◼ ► goal of that app. But those both were Rosetta 2 and they, in my tests, were doing things at
01:01:06 ◼ ► you know, I was a little bit like, ah, man, I wanted to see it beat, uh, Logic, but the things
01:01:11 ◼ ► that I really wanted to see how it would do is forecast an audition. Cause these are the things
01:01:15 ◼ ► that typically, uh, take a chunk of time. And I know that they're pushing machine to its maximum
01:01:25 ◼ ► for me, like it feels like it doesn't matter exactly what's going on, whether this application
01:01:32 ◼ ► is M1 or it's Rosetta, everything works. It all works great in a way that is astounding to me.
01:01:45 ◼ ► very impressive. The one downside for me is that there are far fewer iOS apps available, uh, than
01:01:52 ◼ ► I expected there would be, especially in the categories that I'm looking for. Like there's
01:01:56 ◼ ► a lot of productivity tools that there aren't, uh, the iOS versions haven't been released for them,
01:02:02 ◼ ► which is a shame because the ones that I've been using, they work just as I expected. So
01:02:08 ◼ ► Widget Smith, I now have Widget Smith widgets on my Mac, which is great because I love those widgets.
01:02:14 ◼ ► Overcast is fantastic to have on my Mac because I use Overcast as part of my production process
01:02:20 ◼ ► for publishing shows. So I very frequently will take the edited audio and upload it to Overcast,
01:02:28 ◼ ► which you can do if you're a premium member or subscriber, you can upload files yourself.
01:02:33 ◼ ► And I will check that the chapters are good and that it all seems okay. I can now do this on my
01:02:39 ◼ ► Mac where I am. I'll usually have to take my headphones off, put my AirPods in, get my iPhone
01:02:45 ◼ ► and do it there. But I get to now have that as part of the production process on my Mac. And
01:02:52 ◼ ► that's awesome. And some games that I've tried, they work great. Like for me, it's not that
01:02:57 ◼ ► they're great or what they work, how I expected them to work, right? Which is a little bit worse
01:03:02 ◼ ► than they do on the iPad, but that's perfectly fine because it's now opened me up for tools
01:03:08 ◼ ► that weren't on my Mac before. And I really implore developers to give it a go, you know?
01:03:15 ◼ ► - Yeah. Give it a try. Don't let perfect be the enemy of good. I think if you're a developer who's
01:03:25 ◼ ► withholding your app from the Mac, look at it. Could it be better? Yes. But think about that
01:03:33 ◼ ► you're giving access to somebody who loves your app on iPad or iPhone. Easy access to it on the
01:03:38 ◼ ► Mac. You're helping them out. Your web equivalent, if you have one, it's not as good. It's almost
01:03:43 ◼ ► certainly not as good for a lot of reasons, even if it does all the same things, because it's in
01:03:47 ◼ ► a web browser window instead of in its own window. And yes, if you want to improve it, if there are
01:03:52 ◼ ► things that are wrong with it and it doesn't work right, well, of course, don't put it on the store.
01:03:55 ◼ ► But if you want to improve it, improve it. If you want to add catalyst stuff to it, great. That's
01:04:02 ◼ ► all great. But don't let, I would say, perfect be the enemy of good because my greatest disappointment
01:04:07 ◼ ► with iOS apps on Apple Silicon is that most of them aren't there more than anything else.
01:04:15 ◼ ► - Yep. And as well, understand that the people that are looking for this are your biggest fans
01:04:24 ◼ ► of your apps because they're not very visible. You really have to have decided you want that app
01:04:30 ◼ ► and then go and get it. They're not surfaced on the store. You have to search and then click a
01:04:36 ◼ ► couple of buttons to get it there. These are the people that are really looking for your application.
01:04:41 ◼ ► Give them the option. We'll see. But yeah, I will say, I am excited about the Mac in a way that I
01:04:52 ◼ ► haven't been for about five years because there's some stuff going on, Jason. And I'm like, come on,
01:05:04 ◼ ► - Things are happening. I migrated my old MacBook Air that I used to use a lot, don't use a lot
01:05:11 ◼ ► anymore. I think of you when I look at that MacBook Air, Myke, because it's the one where
01:05:18 ◼ ► we have those New York briefings with interviews and I have to record, upgrade, and all that.
01:05:23 ◼ ► I'm like, all right, I'm going to bring the Mac for this because this is probably too far for my
01:05:26 ◼ ► iPad to go. And I migrated it after many years of service, after seven years of service, to
01:05:35 ◼ ► the new MacBook Air. And it's been fun playing with it and it's great. And I'm happy to have a
01:05:45 ◼ ► modern Mac laptop in my collection of tools because every now and then I have to choose,
01:05:53 ◼ ► do I go out into my cold office that's not heated on the weekend and do a thing? And I think, oh,
01:06:00 ◼ ► I could grab the laptop and do that where it's warm. And that's kind of fun for things that I
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01:08:01 ◼ ► - Protecting you from bad actors. Watch out, Chuck Norris. You're not getting my stuff.
01:08:06 ◼ ► - Not you. So that isn't all that's going on with the Mac, though, right? It's not just
01:08:18 ◼ ► - It sure did. macOS 10, no more. We now have macOS 11, and the first, well, I guess the only
01:08:26 ◼ ► macOS 11 probably will be Big Sur, and then we'll go to macOS 12, something else next year, which is
01:08:59 ◼ ► with Big Sur than I have. I'm very early on in my experiences, really. I'm kind of like,
01:09:04 ◼ ► along with everybody else, has just installed it, which is not the way that I do with iOS betas,
01:09:09 ◼ ► right? Like an iPad OS, I install those myself. But with the Mac, I'm a bit more hesitant
01:09:14 ◼ ► because I do so much heavy lifting work that could potentially be upended by a beta version of a Mac
01:09:28 ◼ ► the clearest, most in-your-face, and somewhat controversial thing about Big Sur is the design.
01:09:35 ◼ ► So there are lots of cues taken from iOS, right? And there are certainly some rough edges.
01:09:41 ◼ ► Where are you, kind of, how are you feeling now about the design of Big Sur? How has it settled
01:09:50 ◼ ► for you? What do you like? What do you not like? You know, I mostly like it. I know that there are
01:09:58 ◼ ► things that are not great, right? Like, it's not perfect. This is what happens with OS revisions
01:10:07 ◼ ► on the Mac, which is they do a big design change, and they go a little too far, and then they spend
01:10:11 ◼ ► the next couple of years cleaning it up. And that happens, but I like that they're pushing it
01:10:15 ◼ ► forward. I like that they're taking more space. Whether or not Apple does touch screen Macs in
01:10:21 ◼ ► the future, I think that it's also clear that Apple has decided that the decisions they made
01:10:26 ◼ ► about how tight everything was in terms of layout were from an era where screens were much smaller,
01:10:32 ◼ ► and the average Mac screen is much larger now, just because, you know, the laptops used to be
01:10:38 ◼ ► smaller. The average Mac is still a laptop, but the average Mac now is a 13-inch laptop, maybe a
01:10:43 ◼ ► 13-point something, right? And the average Mac screen in general is probably, like, I don't know,
01:10:49 ◼ ► 14 or 15 inches, because, again, mostly laptops, but also a bunch of giant iMacs. Screens get
01:10:57 ◼ ► bigger, you get a little more room, and they decided to take them, and so there's more padding
01:11:01 ◼ ► everywhere. And could that be touch-friendly? I suppose, but it's also just, design-wise, I think
01:11:08 ◼ ► they're saying, "Let's take the space. We don't need to cram everything in." And some people were
01:11:12 ◼ ► complaining about that and don't like that, and running this on an 11-inch MacBook Air is going
01:11:16 ◼ ► to be painful, but I kind of like what they've done. The contrast seems nice to have the kind
01:11:25 ◼ ► of light windows, or very dark windows if you're in dark mode, and, you know, I think it looks
01:11:31 ◼ ► pretty good, but there are things about it that are messy and that need to be cleaned up, and
01:11:35 ◼ ► that's going to happen. But after having spent the whole summer with it, I'm kind of used to it now,
01:11:40 ◼ ► and I like it. Yeah, I really like it too, in general. So there are some parts of it that are...
01:11:46 ◼ ► there are some parts that I feel seem wrong, and there are some parts that I can tell I don't like
01:11:54 ◼ ► because they're different, but doesn't necessarily mean they should change. So, like, alert boxes
01:11:59 ◼ ► seem very different, right? Like, they look very different, you know, they are now these kind of
01:12:05 ◼ ► things that appear in the middle of the screen, and they are more, I guess, more square than
01:12:11 ◼ ► rectangular, I guess, in most instances, but the point is that they are now like a vertical thing,
01:12:16 ◼ ► not a horizontal thing, and all the text is centered. It's like, you know, look like an
01:12:22 ◼ ► alert box to me, which is why I think I find it so weird as opposed to not liking the design. It's
01:12:28 ◼ ► just I'm very used to these things being a certain way, and now they're not that way. And I reckon I
01:12:35 ◼ ► will get used to it, but there definitely are some points of it which are very opinionated,
01:12:41 ◼ ► and when you make very opinionated choices, you will upset people. Yeah. But I'm with you that
01:12:49 ◼ ► overall, I am a big fan of the design of Big Sur because it's just, you know, it's fun. And also,
01:13:00 ◼ ► as well, like for me, it is more familiar to me for iOS, and so therefore I think everything on
01:13:10 ◼ ► Big Sur looks more modern, and when I go back to Catalina, it's like, "Ooh, you look old."
01:13:18 ◼ ► Have you had that experience? When you go back to a Catalina Mac, how do you feel about that now?
01:13:22 ◼ ► Well, it's, you know, it's all very nostalgic. But yeah, I agree. I think you got to move forward.
01:13:31 ◼ ► I think you got to move forward. You got to try to modernize the look and feel, and people will
01:13:37 ◼ ► complain because it's a change, and also because you didn't get it right the first time. It's a
01:13:41 ◼ ► little bit off, and then you spend the next couple of years as a designer fixing it, and I think that
01:13:46 ◼ ► will be what happens here. Even over the summer, I think that the design got a little more consistent.
01:13:51 ◼ ► And yeah, so I think it's okay. The way I put it in my review is that I feel like Catalina was the
01:14:01 ◼ ► bad cop and that this is the good cop, and like they made Catalina break all the software and
01:14:07 ◼ ► all of those things, and then this one gets to move on and say, "Ah, but we got new things and
01:14:13 ◼ ► Apple Silicon, and it's a big, brave new future." And it's kind of a funny way to end up doing your
01:14:23 ◼ ► OS rollout, but I do really think that Apple, at least to a certain degree, just decided that they
01:14:28 ◼ ► didn't want the rollout of Apple Silicon to be tied up with Big Sur, to be tied up with
01:14:32 ◼ ► incompatibility so that the narrative became, "Apple Silicon broke my app," and so they just
01:14:36 ◼ ► did it all last year. Yeah, yeah, iPhone 7 lost the headphone jack, so the iPhone 10 could be amazing.
01:14:43 ◼ ► And people wouldn't get upset about it. Very similar type of thing. Yeah, like Catalina took
01:14:48 ◼ ► a bullet for Big Sur, right? Like everything was horrible, but it's so everybody's first run of
01:15:02 ◼ ► from something older to Big Sur, you still get it. How do you feel about the app icons? We spent
01:15:09 ◼ ► a lot of time looking at these over the summer. How are you feeling about them now? Does it kind
01:15:15 ◼ ► of feel right? No, I mean, like we said, a lot of them are still just literally an image inside a
01:15:25 ◼ ► round erect, which is dumb, and they need to rethink them, but that's where we are. And all
01:15:30 ◼ ► the apps that I use have not updated their icons yet, so the dock is this kind of like combination
01:15:36 ◼ ► of various weird shapes of icons, and I know Apple wants everything to be a round erect,
01:15:40 ◼ ► and it'll all get there, but you know, it's fine. It's weirder on Catalina as apps are starting to
01:15:46 ◼ ► update their icons than it is on Big Sur, because I have more Catalina icons in my dock, but now have
01:15:52 ◼ ► these like clearly Big Sur-ified icons, and that looks very strange. So a couple of new additions
01:16:00 ◼ ► are Control Center, Notification Center. How useful do you find these additions, or like these
01:16:07 ◼ ► changes, I should say, to the way, especially for Notification Center is more of a change than an
01:16:12 ◼ ► addition, but how are you feeling about these on Big Sur? So Control Center got a lot better over
01:16:16 ◼ ► the summer. There's more work to do there. I like it as a direction because it sort of unifies somebody
01:16:21 ◼ ► who runs like Bartender in order to slim down how many items I see in my menu bar. I like the idea
01:16:28 ◼ ► that Apple is basically going to build Control Center to be this place that a whole bunch of
01:16:33 ◼ ► drop-down controls can go. They need to add more of their controls to it. When the summer started,
01:16:40 ◼ ► it was sort of not a modular system, but actually now you can go to the System Preferences app and
01:16:45 ◼ ► you can add items or remove some items from the Control Center, and they just need to kind of like
01:16:50 ◼ ► keep going down that path because I like that. I think also the next logical step is to let
01:16:56 ◼ ► third parties have access to Control Center to drop their items in there. That might take a year or two,
01:17:02 ◼ ► but just as a way to kind of like simplify the menu bar, something that doesn't need to display in the
01:17:08 ◼ ► menu bar but needs to be sort of quickly accessible, living in Control Center is a nice way to approach
01:17:15 ◼ ► it. And you can add things, you can drag things out of Control Center into the menu bar, and
01:17:21 ◼ ► you know, it's gotten a lot better over the course of the beta version of it. So I don't mind it.
01:17:29 ◼ ► I think it's also additive. It's not saying, "No, you can never put your Wi-Fi status in your menu
01:17:36 ◼ ► bar if you care about that." Of course you can. You can do that if you want. You can promote
01:17:41 ◼ ► anything you can think of more or less into the menu bar, or you can take it out and put it in
01:17:47 ◼ ► Control Center. I like that. I think that's a good way to approach it. Notification Center's a bit of
01:17:52 ◼ ► a mess for me. Just notifications in general. They took the buttons away and now you have to
01:17:59 ◼ ► hover and click to get to the actions to accept. It's all a bit... Yeah, I play a game where I move
01:18:05 ◼ ► my mouse over and I try to click the X and then the X goes away, and then I have to move it back
01:18:10 ◼ ► and wait and the X comes back and I have to move it but not too far and then click the X to make
01:18:13 ◼ ► the notification go away. It's not good. Honestly, I've never really used the Notification Center
01:18:20 ◼ ► sidebar. It's sort of out of sight and out of mind. Now I go there and I'm like, "Oh boy,
01:18:24 ◼ ► I got a lot of notifications to clear now." You only get to see three, which is really strange
01:18:31 ◼ ► to me. You have to click to see more. I don't really like what they did to the notification
01:18:35 ◼ ► stuff. I think that they've made that... There kind of isn't really any improvement there at all,
01:18:41 ◼ ► and I think they've made everything a little bit worse in my opinion. That has been the one
01:18:46 ◼ ► clear thing to me where I can see, "No, you made this harder and all of the ways in which
01:18:53 ◼ ► notifications are handled seem a little bit wonkier in Big Sur. That's something that I'm not
01:18:59 ◼ ► that hot on." What other things jump out to you? Really is the design. The design, the sounds. We
01:19:05 ◼ ► spent time talking about this stuff in the past. They're the big, big things. Are there any other
01:19:10 ◼ ► parts of Big Sur that you're finding particularly interesting? Well, Messages... It's easy to take
01:19:17 ◼ ► Messages for granted, but Messages on the Mac was bad and old and didn't have a lot of the features
01:19:23 ◼ ► that were on iOS. And because they took it and put it in Catalyst, it's good. It's not great.
01:19:30 ◼ ► It's not great. I could criticize some of the behavior. There's some quirky behavior in there.
01:19:37 ◼ ► Is it because it's Catalyst? Maybe. But if you compare it to the previous version of Messages,
01:19:51 ◼ ► because, quite frankly, it works better. I have so many problems with old Messages in terms of
01:19:58 ◼ ► typing in one tab and suddenly I'm in a different tab typing to a different person. That happened
01:20:03 ◼ ► to me all the time. It's so frustrating. Either you send the message and they're like, "Whoops,
01:20:07 ◼ ► wrong window!" But I started in that window. It just decided to move me to a different window.
01:20:12 ◼ ► All that stuff seems to be gone now because they threw that app out. That's iChat AV. It's gone.
01:20:17 ◼ ► It's gone. And instead we have Messages. So I think that's a winner. And Safari... But everybody
01:20:27 ◼ ► gets Safari. If you're on Mojave or Catalina, you get this version of Safari. But they did a bunch
01:20:31 ◼ ► of stuff to Safari and added some new features in. And translation is in there. I'm not sure whether
01:20:37 ◼ ► it's enabled by the new version of Safari or not, but I've been really loving the new 1Password
01:20:41 ◼ ► plugin that just pops up in the form field. So you can very quickly unlock with Touch ID if you're on
01:20:49 ◼ ► a Touch ID system and you don't even have to bring up the 1Password popup. It just sort of does it in
01:20:55 ◼ ► line. I'm not sure whether that's enabled by the new Safari or not, but for me it ends up sort of
01:21:04 ◼ ► Yeah, I like the new Safari stuff too. I like that YouTube can be watched in 4K now in Safari.
01:21:12 ◼ ► This is part of Big Sur. I have a nice monitor, right? Let me look at it in high quality.
01:21:27 ◼ ► Maybe better to say, does Big Sur itself make you feel any different about the Mac and macOS?
01:21:32 ◼ ► They've been heading in this direction. This is all part of the same thing, which is Apple has gone
01:21:39 ◼ ► from viewing macOS as a legacy platform, which doesn't necessarily mean they're going to kill it,
01:21:45 ◼ ► but it means that it is never going to be more than it is because the people who use it are using
01:21:50 ◼ ► it because it provides continuity to the past. And so I believe that there was an era at Apple
01:21:56 ◼ ► where they felt like, "We're just going to not touch the Mac. We're going to use Intel processors.
01:22:00 ◼ ► We're going to just kind of keep it going." The most we do to the Mac is build our ties to the
01:22:05 ◼ ► other parts of our operating systems and other products that we use, but otherwise we're just
01:22:09 ◼ ► going to kind of let it float and be what it's always been. It's going to feel a little old,
01:22:18 ◼ ► We had those debates about what's going on with the Mac and does Apple care? Is Apple just going
01:22:24 ◼ ► to keep it on life support and consider it the legacy platform or are they going to try to make it
01:22:27 ◼ ► modern? And it is definitely a "be careful what you ask for" moment, right? Because if the Mac's
01:22:37 ◼ ► not a legacy platform, but instead is a super important part of Apple's whole strategy and has
01:22:43 ◼ ► the ability to run iOS apps as well as Mac apps and is going to use Apple's processors and is going
01:22:49 ◼ ► to be a big part of Apple's story going forward, it also can't be treated like a legacy platform
01:23:03 ◼ ► if you're a dyed-in-the-wool Mac user, as I am, that you look at some of these changes and you say,
01:23:08 ◼ ► "Oh, just leave it the way it was." First off, keep running that Mac, running Mojave, you'll be
01:23:16 ◼ ► okay for a while. But this is Apple caring about the Mac and you may not like it. I mean, this is,
01:23:23 ◼ ► again, if you've been on the Mac a long time, you'll know the most annoying time, times in Mac
01:23:32 ◼ ► history are when Apple was really trying to iterate and innovate and do new stuff and let's
01:23:37 ◼ ► try this out and let's try that out. And what if this is translucent and what if this was shiny and
01:23:42 ◼ ► what if this had a 3D effect on it? And you roll your eyes at a bunch of that stuff. But that was
01:23:46 ◼ ► also when Apple was investing thought into it and it did move the platform forward. And a lot of the
01:23:52 ◼ ► bad ideas just kind of fell out after a while. That's where we are now is Apple's actually trying
01:23:58 ◼ ► stuff on macOS and they're not all going to be great. Some of them are going to be annoying and
01:24:02 ◼ ► some of them are going to be annoying for good reasons. And some of them are going to be annoying
01:24:05 ◼ ► because we're used to the way it always was. And we'll have to figure out whether the new way is
01:24:11 ◼ ► better or worse or just different. But I'm excited about what Big Sur represents because Big Sur
01:24:19 ◼ ► represents a new era of Apple caring about the Mac and having the Mac be a huge part of its technical
01:24:26 ◼ ► strategy instead of the Mac being kind of floated away on a slab of ice. Live as long as you can,
01:24:37 ◼ ► but away from the rest of us. And that was sort of where it was, I feel like, a few years ago.
01:24:43 ◼ ► It may be weird and different and scary and annoying, but the Mac is relevant and important
01:24:57 ◼ ► MATT: Yeah, that's a beautiful way of putting it. And it is that kind of thing of, you can't ask for
01:25:07 ◼ ► the Mac to move forward and also for it to stay the same. It's going to move, and it's moving.
01:25:24 ◼ ► annoying and people were annoyed by it. But if you've got to choose between—and I do believe
01:25:31 ◼ ► this is not a false choice, I think this is a real choice. You can't say, "Oh, well, the Mac is going
01:25:35 ◼ ► to be central to Apple and it's going to be a part of their core and they're going to invest a lot of
01:25:39 ◼ ► time in it, but it's not going to change." That's not how it works. So I would rather it change and
01:25:45 ◼ ► adapt and continue to be a part of Apple's big structure. I actually, you know, you and I have
01:25:52 ◼ ► talked about iOS laptops for a while. We talked about, like, what if there was an iOS laptop.
01:25:58 ◼ ► The whole premise behind the talk about an iOS laptop or an iOS desktop was, "Well, it can't be
01:26:07 ◼ ► the Mac. If we wanted to run iOS apps and have touch and have Apple's processors and all of those
01:26:12 ◼ ► things, it can't be the Mac. So we're going to have to have Apple, you know, have the Mac over there
01:26:25 ◼ ► - It's like, "Well, this is the only way we're going to get this stuff because Apple aren't
01:26:27 ◼ ► doing it." - Right. And now, I think that's just not the way it is now. Now, the traditional
01:26:34 ◼ ► computer shapes are Macs, but they're also part of Apple's overall strategy. And I think in the long
01:26:39 ◼ ► run, you're going to have two choices, right? I mean, as of today, you have two choices. You have
01:26:46 ◼ ► an iPad Pro or Air in a keyboard case made by Apple with cursor support that you can use that's
01:26:53 ◼ ► completely on iPad OS. Or you get a MacBook Air also running on an Apple design processor and runs
01:27:00 ◼ ► some iOS software as well as Mac software. And if that story changes over time, then you're really
01:27:06 ◼ ► sort of just making some interesting decisions about the hardware. I think that that's where
01:27:10 ◼ ► Apple wants the Mac to be, is part of its whole product line and that there's a really nice
01:27:15 ◼ ► continuum from iPhone all the way up to Mac Pro. And if they hadn't done this, that's not what it
01:27:21 ◼ ► would be. If they hadn't done this, they would be, "The Mac is available. It remains a product
01:27:25 ◼ ► in our lineup." And then over here, we start at the iPhone and go up to a desktop iPad thing.
01:27:31 ◼ ► But they made the choice not to do that, I think. - This episode is also brought to you by Express
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01:29:35 ◼ ► and relay FM. It is time Jason Snow for some #askupgrade questions and this week we're going
01:29:43 ◼ ► to start off with a question from Kevin. Kevin says do you think that any of the just introduced
01:29:48 ◼ ► M1 Macs will be refreshed during their two-year rollout plan? So Apple is saying that in two years
01:29:56 ◼ ► they will have transitioned the entire product line over. Do you think that we might see any
01:30:00 ◼ ► changes to the just released products during that period of time? I do. Seems possible right? I
01:30:07 ◼ ► reckon I within the next 12 months there'll be an update to these some of these products at least.
01:30:33 ◼ ► Maybe. We'll see what they do with the Mac Mini right? It's possible that they're gonna do a
01:30:38 ◼ ► they're gonna do a high-end Mac Mini configuration. Yeah. But they could even do that potentially and
01:30:43 ◼ ► say now you can choose your Mac Mini there's the M1 and the M1X and all of that but I don't know
01:30:48 ◼ ► we're gonna see I keep feeling like since these are Apple's processors that they will just put all
01:30:53 ◼ ► of these products on a annual or 18-month cycle and just but in the next two years I would say
01:30:58 ◼ ► for sure that in the next two years probably within the next 18 months if not the next 12 months
01:31:03 ◼ ► they're all going to get whatever the next generation chip is just like the iPhone does.
01:31:07 ◼ ► So you know it might be more like the iPad where it's every 18 months that's fine but I think the
01:31:13 ◼ ► days where Apple is intransigent easy to say when the days when Apple is intransigent with their
01:31:21 ◼ ► Mac updates because it's like well you know we're not ready Intel's not ready whatever I feel like
01:31:26 ◼ ► they're gonna have extra motivation with these new chips like they're not gonna want to keep selling
01:31:30 ◼ ► the old chips when they got the new chips since they made them. So definitely within the next two
01:31:35 ◼ ► years. I think things are gonna be a little more loosey-goosey than they were before in a good way right like
01:31:40 ◼ ► we might update it in a year it might be in six months might be in 18 months but we'll do it when
01:31:44 ◼ ► we're good rather than you know and it's our decision rather than we have to do it now because
01:31:49 ◼ ► we waited for so long like I don't know if we're gonna get yearly product updates I would say as
01:31:56 ◼ ► you said like probably will end up closer to six 18 months like a year and a half. Here's my
01:32:03 ◼ ► counter-argument would be if the MacBook Air is your more most popular computer you could argue
01:32:08 ◼ ► that you should just put it on an annual cycle and every fall you announce the iPhone and then
01:32:12 ◼ ► in the next month you announce the MacBook Air with the you know M iPhone chip minus 13 processor.
01:32:22 ◼ ► I don't know we'll see reasons that you do yearly product updates than just we have the new chip
01:32:29 ◼ ► right and I'm not sure that the MacBook Air user is desperate and hungry for the next generation
01:32:35 ◼ ► processor at this point. I think you're more likely if you're Apple to want to upgrade iPads
01:32:43 ◼ ► more frequently because they get additional features hardware features to them and even
01:32:48 ◼ ► the Macs might not get I don't know even the iPad Pro is on an 18-month cycle right so even like
01:32:55 ◼ ► that so I agree with you I'm going to put a wrinkle in there too which is but what if these models are
01:33:01 ◼ ► all the transitional models definitely the next and the next wave has hardware changes yes then
01:33:08 ◼ ► you're even more likely to see it I would say sooner because Apple's going to want to sweep
01:33:12 ◼ ► away maybe next fall sweep away the MacBook Air with their new fangled MacBook Air although the
01:33:18 ◼ ► MacBook Air may actually be a bad example because they did redesign it for retina and I feel like
01:33:22 ◼ ► maybe that is the retina the MacBook Air now but we'll see we'll see but I think it's also possible
01:33:28 ◼ ► that we're going to get a faster pace here in the first two years yeah and then it'll slow down a
01:33:32 ◼ ► little bit because they will introduce some new hardware designs and then they'll iterate for a
01:33:37 ◼ ► while yeah this first two-year period there's there's a the future doesn't apply right in that
01:33:43 ◼ ► sense like in the future I imagine it will be probably 18 months to two years for for significant
01:33:48 ◼ ► Mac updates but within the first two years I mean we could have a new 14-inch MacBook Air in six
01:33:56 ◼ ► months that replaces the 13-inch that I just bought and I'm fully expecting that to happen
01:34:02 ◼ ► right like something like that to happen because these first two years no MacBook Air MacBook Pro
01:34:07 ◼ ► that's what I meant to say the MacBook Pro not the MacBook Air but like a 14-inch MacBook Pro
01:34:11 ◼ ► I imagine would come along as soon as they update the 16-inch I don't think it's going to sweep away
01:34:18 ◼ ► your 13-inch because I think they're going to have a 13 or 14 or 16 but we'll see it's exciting though
01:34:24 ◼ ► it will probably be a new yeah well so what I'm saying Kevin is you know don't wait yeah just go
01:34:31 ◼ ► just go buy buy an M1 Mac now I don't think he's actually asking that but I do think that we'll see
01:34:35 ◼ ► another refresh in the next two years I think that setting the over under at two years makes
01:34:39 ◼ ► this an easy yes if it was a year or 18 months it would be a little bit trickier but at two years
01:34:44 ◼ ► I think absolutely Brian asks do you think MagSafe could ever come to the iPad? This is the only way
01:34:53 ◼ ► I could imagine wireless charging coming to the iPad is MagSafe yeah I mean there's already an
01:35:00 ◼ ► array of magnets on the back of the iPad so building an iPad where the magnets use MagSafe
01:35:05 ◼ ► and also are there for mounting on cases and stuff isn't unreasonable and there with the MagSafe Puck
01:35:12 ◼ ► you have unlike a charging pad right you can attach that thing and then lean it against
01:35:16 ◼ ► like I lean my iPad against my nightstand when it's charging upside down so that the charging
01:35:22 ◼ ► plug is at the top right it would not be a big difference to stick the magnet on the back and
01:35:27 ◼ ► then lean it there and you can sort of lay it in any configuration and it would charge it's a big
01:35:31 ◼ ► battery though right like I think there's that's the challenge is do you really want to slowly
01:35:36 ◼ ► charge it with that versus a really fast charge with a USB-C connector that is the problem and so
01:35:46 ◼ ► you know as I could imagine maybe it coming with there could be more power through MagSafe in the
01:35:53 ◼ ► future as the technology improves but I don't know if we're going to see it yet but this is the only
01:35:58 ◼ ► so this is the only way I imagine non-USB-C charging on an iPad I wouldn't put money on it I
01:36:05 ◼ ► think I think it's it's not a solution for the iPad it doesn't need to exist I think the iPad is
01:36:11 ◼ ► fine I also think let's just say they'd be better off doing MagSafe on the iPad and the Mac that's
01:36:19 ◼ ► more like old MagSafe. Correct yes yes. Derek asks I'm currently using a 2018 iPad Pro for Magic
01:36:27 ◼ ► Keyboard someone who mainly uses the iPad as a laptop replacement is the M1 MacBook Air now a
01:36:34 ◼ ► better choice? Well I've been thinking about this question which I looked ahead in our show notes
01:36:40 ◼ ► as I do as a professional podcasters I've been thinking about the whole episode. Oh really?
01:36:45 ◼ ► Because this this is really the question right this is really the question I've gotten this from
01:36:50 ◼ ► a bunch of people which is like well now that the Apple Silicon Macs are out you don't need to use
01:36:57 ◼ ► misunderstanding of why people use the iPad but I think it's worth talking about here because this
01:37:01 ◼ ► is really the issue Apple now makes this amazing touch tablet that you can stick in a keyboard case
01:37:07 ◼ ► with a trackpad on it or do whatever you want with it and it is running iPad OS and now there's the
01:37:13 ◼ ► M1 MacBook Air and the MacBook Pro and they are light and they're running Apple Silicon and they're
01:37:18 ◼ ► really fast so is the Air a better choice than the iPad and the answer is no they're the same
01:37:26 ◼ ► or at least they're they're different enough that you just need to choose what you prefer
01:37:39 ◼ ► because you like the uh the ergonomics of it because whether it's holding it in your hands
01:37:46 ◼ ► or being able to pull it out of the case and walk away or using it in the case having cellular
01:37:51 ◼ ► networking like there are a whole bunch of things ergonomically about it and kind of side features
01:37:56 ◼ ► about it that are great and the software is great and works for you if the Mac is a better fit and
01:38:03 ◼ ► having something that's always a laptop and runs oh you know a few iOS apps but mostly Mac apps
01:38:09 ◼ ► then the Mac is a better fit for you right now I just don't see I don't see any crossover here
01:38:15 ◼ ► like if you could literally run if if the Mac had a screen you could fold back or take off and was
01:38:22 ◼ ► touch and also had the ability to run every iOS app it would be a much more interesting debate
01:38:30 ◼ ► about exactly what you want from it but right now I think it's really clear and hasn't changed do you
01:38:36 ◼ ► want to use an iPad or do you want to use a Mac and I think a Mac looks better now than it has
01:38:42 ◼ ► for a while but like I wrote a piece last week about the Mac my Mac world column last week I
01:38:50 ◼ ► wrote I wrote it on my iPad because I wanted that was the right choice for that in terms of the
01:38:57 ◼ ► ergonomics in terms of the apps I was using it was the right choice for that moment so I think that
01:39:02 ◼ ► there to me this is not a question that has a clear answer now it's we're still back in do you
01:39:11 ◼ ► prefer using the iPad or not the iPad is not a a again I'm not saying Derek is saying this but I do
01:39:16 ◼ ► hear this a lot it's like well surely eventually Apple will do enough to the Mac that you won't
01:39:20 ◼ ► have to resort to the iPad and as people like Federico have talked about Federico Viticci for
01:39:24 ◼ ► a long time iPad users aren't or at least a lot of them aren't resorting to the iPad aren't aren't
01:39:31 ◼ ► coming down to the iPad or having to use the iPad because it's the only thing which offers
01:39:36 ◼ ► they like using the iPad and the iPad Pro with the the magic keyboard is even better and offers
01:39:43 ◼ ► even more options now it's not a Mac Mac users who rely on Mac software are not going to want to use
01:39:48 ◼ ► an iPad and iPad users who rely on iPad software are probably not going to want to use a MacBook
01:39:54 ◼ ► Air because they're different they're just very different so that's my answer is you should get
01:39:59 ◼ ► the one that you that you like and if you've been using the iPad because you really like the
01:40:07 ◼ ► ergonomics of it but you've been struggling with the software and have to go back to your Mac a lot
01:40:11 ◼ ► and really would rather have a Mac yeah you should get a MacBook Air with an M1 because you're going
01:40:16 ◼ ► to be happier but you're also going to lose your tablet and it's just going to be a laptop and have
01:40:21 ◼ ► to stay permanently as a laptop that's just how it is there is a world in which these devices would
01:40:26 ◼ ► have been closer but that hasn't happened you know like if just every iOS app ran and there was just
01:40:34 ◼ ► nothing developers could do about it the stores were the same it would be closer but it it isn't
01:40:40 ◼ ► it isn't that close um but as you say they're like I think even if even if you put the same operating
01:40:58 ◼ ► an iMac is different to a MacBook Pro they both run the same operating system they both can do
01:41:06 ◼ ► the same things but they're different because one is a laptop and if you put Mac OS on the iPad Pro
01:41:14 ◼ ► it'll be different because the iPad Pro can be used without a keyboard on it all it's thinner
01:41:19 ◼ ► it's lighter uh has face ID it has Apple pencil right like if you kept those hardware features
01:41:27 ◼ ► different they're like they're still different products with different ergonomics and different
01:41:31 ◼ ► use cases different battery life different ports they're different um just because one is closer
01:41:43 ◼ ► and finally Kevin asks given the speed of even the M1 MacBook Air do you think that the iMac Pro goes
01:41:53 ◼ ► away and the top of the line iMac M whatever takes its place is Kevin double dipping or do we have two
01:42:01 ◼ ► Kevins Kevin is asking two questions Kevin has the same Kevin it's the same Kevin oh man Kevin
01:42:18 ◼ ► which is it's feeling to me very much like Apple is happy to build high-end iMacs yep and therefore
01:42:26 ◼ ► you don't really necessarily need an iMac Pro anymore also don't forget the iMac Pro was the
01:42:32 ◼ ► replacement for the Mac Pro and then they changed direction and brought back the Mac Pro so the iMac
01:42:37 ◼ ► Pro is kind of not Apple strategy I okay so is there ever going to be another iMac Pro I'm not
01:42:48 ◼ ► sure no there isn't thank you Myke people love it when we whisper I think it's one and done here
01:42:55 ◼ ► we wondered if it would be I think here's the thing I think it's the same question as is there
01:42:59 ◼ ► a higher-end Mac Mini in space gray I don't know the answer like I really don't there's room for
01:43:06 ◼ ► one but will they bother to make one will they make a more feel or will they just replace this
01:43:11 ◼ ► two port two USB-C port Mac Mini that we have now next time it'll have four and it'll just be the
01:43:17 ◼ ► Mac Mini then I think there's a possibility for marketing and I know this is what we talked about
01:43:23 ◼ ► when we talked about the iMac when it came out you could market the high-end iMac as an iMac Pro and
01:43:28 ◼ ► give it a different treatment and put space gray on it or whatever if you wanted to or you could
01:43:33 ◼ ► just make it a high-end iMac high-end iMac is simpler if they see that there's some some
01:43:38 ◼ ► advantage to calling one of the models iMac Pro I think they could I probably wouldn't bet on it I
01:43:46 ◼ ► probably would guess that they're just going to make the iMac and the iMac is going to be so
01:43:51 ◼ ► awesome that they'll just be like it's it's awesome enough as it is and then if you need
01:43:57 ◼ ► expandability that's what that's what Pro is for that that's my gut feeling but I think there's a
01:44:02 ◼ ► possibility that they will take the big high-end souped up iMac and call it iMac Pro and maybe make
01:44:09 ◼ ► it look a little bit different but that's extra work that may not be necessary because the iMac
01:44:19 ◼ ► I just you know I think it was obvious to me to us we've spoken about it for a while of like
01:44:37 ◼ ► and then they had to change course like the iMac Pro was supposed to be Apple's top of the line
01:44:45 ◼ ► machine yes that was its whole reason for being right and by the time it came out it had already
01:44:51 ◼ ► been undercut right it already changed their mind and then they've made the regular iMac more
01:44:57 ◼ ► powerful in some ways and let's be clear the next iMac knowing what we know now about the M1 the
01:45:03 ◼ ► next iMac will blow away the iMac Pro in terms of absolutely certainly yeah the low-end iMac
01:45:16 ◼ ► the only thing is if they decide that there's a marketing value in calling a system pro
01:45:28 ◼ ► added complexity they don't need and takes away the focus from their other Pro Mac yeah which is
01:45:34 ◼ ► the actual Mac Pro there are two questions here I think which is one will Apple ever call a machine
01:45:40 ◼ ► iMac Pro again or two will Apple make a machine that's clearly the like the evolution of the iMac
01:45:47 ◼ ► Pro I think question two is no way question one maybe like you know like the iMac Pro has very
01:45:55 ◼ ► different internals to make it as powerful as it is I don't think that's going to happen and that's
01:45:59 ◼ ► not that doesn't need to happen anymore they may call an iMac an iMac Pro but the idea of what the
01:46:07 ◼ ► iMac Pro is there's a reason they released this machine in 2017 and then didn't change it oh I
01:46:14 ◼ ► will say unless they completely redesign the iMac which maybe they will and I think they should they
01:46:22 ◼ ► better if they don't I will put money down that the cooling system in it will look like the iMac
01:46:30 ◼ ► Pro right although they the m1 will they need to cool it but it'll be like m1z or something like
01:46:36 ◼ ► that I feel like I feel like this is exactly it right it's so much that cooling system might be
01:46:40 ◼ ► overkill you might not need cooling for the whole thing right now I'm take it back I'm not putting
01:46:44 ◼ ► my money down I'm not putting my money's come back none the money's money's off the table I never
01:46:48 ◼ ► took my finger off the money and so I'm going to take the money back all of these iMacs have these
01:46:53 ◼ ► huge cooling systems because of the Intel processors that are in them so either they're
01:46:57 ◼ ► going to be empty shells or they really are going to redesign these and I think that's why they're
01:47:01 ◼ ► really going to redesign the iMac it's like not only has it been a design that's been out there
01:47:04 ◼ ► forever but like so much of it doesn't need to be there if you only need a small cooling system
01:47:18 ◼ ► thank you so much for listening to this week's episode of upgrade I would like to once again
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01:47:33 ◼ ► week go to get upgrade plus.com thank you for your support if you do that you can find Jason online
01:47:38 ◼ ► at sixcolors.com and the incomparable.com and Jason hosts many podcasts here at relay FM if
01:47:45 ◼ ► you have yet to check out 20 Macs for 2020 the podcast version here at relay FM please do that
01:47:50 ◼ ► it is sublime I love it uh Jason is also at JSNL I'm at iMyke I-M-Y-K-E I uh host many shows here
01:47:59 ◼ ► at relay FM and I also live stream at mike.live where currently I have been building and playing
01:48:04 ◼ ► around lots of mechanical keyboard stuff it's actually if that's your thing go check it out