Upgrade

00:00:00 ◼   ► [Music]

00:00:08 ◼   ► From Relay FM, this is Upgrade, episode 328, and today's show is brought to you by Pingdom, Sanebox, and Hover.

00:00:15 ◼   ► My name is Myke Hurley and I am joined by Mr. Jason Snell. Hi, Jason.

00:00:20 ◼   ► Hi, Myke.

00:00:21 ◼   ► Happy Cyber Monday.

00:00:23 ◼   ► Oh, is it? Oh, man, I didn't get you anything for Cyber Monday. Oh.

00:00:29 ◼   ► Well.

00:00:30 ◼   ► Oh, well, let me tell you, I'm just really tired of them commercializing Cyber Monday. I remember back when it wasn't this commercial.

00:00:37 ◼   ► I got you something for Cyber Monday.

00:00:39 ◼   ► What'd you get me?

00:00:40 ◼   ► A #SnellTalk question, and this week's comes from Matt.

00:00:43 ◼   ► Matt wants to know if you needed to download an app from a big company, you know, say, Slack or a Microsoft app or something like that, by default, do you go to their website or do you go to the Mac App Store?

00:00:55 ◼   ► I don't have a default because I, it depends on how I'm, how I'm getting it. Like, if you log into a website, like, I'll give you an example.

00:01:05 ◼   ► Like, I think Dropbox isn't in the Mac App Store, but the point is you log into their website and then they give you a download link.

00:01:10 ◼   ► Well, then I'm just going to download it from the site.

00:01:12 ◼   ► If they give me a download link as I've logged in or signed up for their service or whatever, I'm going to go that way.

00:01:18 ◼   ► Sometimes there's a beta, like a Slack beta, there's a Slack beta for Apple Silicon, and so I'm downloading it from them.

00:01:25 ◼   ► And a while ago I had a Slack beta, and again, you go straight from them.

00:01:30 ◼   ► In other cases, I will go right to the Mac App Store.

00:01:34 ◼   ► It really, it really varies.

00:01:36 ◼   ► I'd say I'm, because I am, have been doing this a long time, I'm more used to going to people's websites and downloading them, but I'm also happy to get that stuff in the Mac App Store.

00:01:44 ◼   ► So there's no default, and I'd say there's no one way I do it.

00:01:48 ◼   ► I've got some stuff that's in Mac App Store and some stuff that's not.

00:01:51 ◼   ► I think all the Microsoft stuff I have is downloaded from the Microsoft website using their installer, even though they're on the Mac App Store.

00:02:00 ◼   ► So, yeah.

00:02:01 ◼   ► I don't have a default, and I know this because I annoy myself that when I set up a new Mac, I go to download an app and it's telling me to buy it.

00:02:09 ◼   ► And it's like, well, I've already bought it.

00:02:11 ◼   ► Right?

00:02:11 ◼   ► It's like, oh, because I bought it directly.

00:02:13 ◼   ► So then I have to go find the email, which has the key in it.

00:02:18 ◼   ► It is a bit of a nightmare really trying to set up a new Mac sometimes because you have to try and remember this exact thing, right?

00:02:25 ◼   ► Like, where did I get this piece of software?

00:02:28 ◼   ► And then how on earth do I find the key for it?

00:02:30 ◼   ► It is easier to go through your purchase list in the Mac App Store, isn't it?

00:02:34 ◼   ► Way easier.

00:02:34 ◼   ► And then I have this thing where there was a point in time when I started putting the keys in 1Password, but there's also a point in time where I didn't do that.

00:02:46 ◼   ► Yeah.

00:02:47 ◼   ► Having just set up the MacBook Air running on the M1, I had that moment where I was like, where is this registration key?

00:02:56 ◼   ► And in the end, I mean, I go to my email app and I search for the license and it's there.

00:03:03 ◼   ► It's always there.

00:03:04 ◼   ► And I could put it into 1Password, but I don't.

00:03:07 ◼   ► Well, but this is their thing of like, I've already proven the fact that I'm inconsistent.

00:03:10 ◼   ► So I obviously inconsistently save the keys too, because you know what?

00:03:14 ◼   ► I'm a human being.

00:03:16 ◼   ► So that's why I use Gmail is that the keys are just in my archive.

00:03:20 ◼   ► Yeah.

00:03:20 ◼   ► They're just always there.

00:03:22 ◼   ► Yeah.

00:03:24 ◼   ► So there you go.

00:03:25 ◼   ► It's important to know.

00:03:26 ◼   ► So anyway, that's the answer, Matt.

00:03:28 ◼   ► Myke is human.

00:03:29 ◼   ► This is one of those things where I wished that the Mac App Store is what I wanted it to be, which was just a situation where every developer found it beneficial to be there and chose to have all of their software there.

00:03:42 ◼   ► So I just had to go to one place because then I would get all the benefits, right?

00:03:47 ◼   ► I wouldn't have to worry about any of this stuff.

00:03:49 ◼   ► I could just set it all up as new and it'd be nice and easy, but it isn't.

00:03:53 ◼   ► And I don't honestly, I don't begrudge anybody really.

00:03:57 ◼   ► Like I don't begrudge Apple.

00:03:58 ◼   ► I don't begrudge the developers.

00:04:00 ◼   ► You know, these are just conflicting business models and I'm happy that everybody has the choices that they want to make.

00:04:07 ◼   ► But as a consumer, I really just wished there was a way for me to not have to worry about all this frustration, you know?

00:04:16 ◼   ► Yeah, I get it.

00:04:17 ◼   ► Uh, the Mac App Store is not what any of us expected it to be because Apple, you know, decided that it was going to be treated for good and bad because, you know, I think there was a time when we were all worried that

00:04:28 ◼   ► the Mac App Store was eventually going to be the only way you'd be able to get software.

00:04:33 ◼   ► Right.

00:04:34 ◼   ► But this is, you know, we know there are so many apps that just can't be in there at all.

00:04:37 ◼   ► And Apple has done a lot of work to make it a better situation, but it's still not, uh, it's still not the answer that maybe we thought it would be.

00:04:46 ◼   ► But you're right.

00:04:47 ◼   ► That would be nice if, I'm not saying I want Apple to have complete control over all Mac software.

00:04:51 ◼   ► I think it's more that it would be nice if the Mac App Store was such a, uh, an open, friendly, welcoming place that all Mac developers wanted to be in it.

00:05:01 ◼   ► Exactly.

00:05:01 ◼   ► That's not the case, even though it's more welcoming than it was, it's never going to be the case.

00:05:06 ◼   ► And so it's going to be a little bit of this and a little bit of that.

00:05:09 ◼   ► So it is, it is weird.

00:05:12 ◼   ► Matt does get at a good point here, which is, it is a little bit weird where you can choose either one and you're like, what does that mean?

00:05:18 ◼   ► Like sometimes I'll go to a website, I'll hear about a new indie app and I'll go to a website.

00:05:21 ◼   ► And I'll click and they're like, get it in the Mac App Store.

00:05:23 ◼   ► I'm like, okay, then decision made for me.

00:05:27 ◼   ► Yes.

00:05:27 ◼   ► Um, but sometimes you end up with the option to do either one, like BB edit is in the Mac App Store and out.

00:05:33 ◼   ► And I don't have the Mac App Store version.

00:05:35 ◼   ► I have the out of the App Store version.

00:05:35 ◼   ► Cause sometimes I choose not to get the Mac App Store version because I'm like, is there a feature, is there going to be a feature that's only going to be in the direct version because Apple won't allow it or, you know, so then you like, you just have to, you're given this kind of thing.

00:05:50 ◼   ► It's like, do I choose the easy path or do I choose like the path where I'm at least potentially going to get everything I might want to get in the future?

00:05:59 ◼   ► Like you make a decision now, which you have no way of knowing whether it's going to be the right decision for you in three or four years time.

00:06:06 ◼   ► And sometimes utilities are live, you know, through their updater, if they're using like Sparkle or something outside of the Mac App Store way before they get their update approved on the Mac App Store.

00:06:17 ◼   ► So there's a new version and you've got the Mac App Store version, you kind of have to wait.

00:06:21 ◼   ► Also a lot of these utilities, uh, they use the Sparkle framework for updating and they've, and they've got an opt into the beta and then you get more, you get access to betas, which of course there's still no test flight for Mac OS.

00:06:34 ◼   ► Unbelievable.

00:06:34 ◼   ► There's still no test flight for the Mac.

00:06:36 ◼   ► So, you know, anyway, I have no clear answer and yet we talked about this for a while.

00:06:42 ◼   ► That's good podcasting.

00:06:44 ◼   ► If you would like to send in a Snail Talk question to help us open the show, just like Matt did, just send out a tweet with the hashtag Snail Talk or use the command question mark Snail Talk in the Relay FM members discord.

00:06:55 ◼   ► I would like to thank everybody who has so far entered a vote for the 2020 Upgradies.

00:07:01 ◼   ► This is our annual awards show.

00:07:03 ◼   ► You can go to Upgradies.vote and there'll be a link in the show notes for that, of course, as well.

00:07:09 ◼   ► So you can enter your votes.

00:07:11 ◼   ► We have had hundreds upon hundreds of entries so far, Jason.

00:07:15 ◼   ► I can tell you so far we have had a, let me see, I'm just going to my very, very, very, very large spreadsheet here.

00:07:25 ◼   ► Over 350 entries so far from our Upgradients.

00:07:30 ◼   ► So it's a good start.

00:07:31 ◼   ► We need more.

00:07:31 ◼   ► Oh, definitely.

00:07:32 ◼   ► More entries, more nominations.

00:07:34 ◼   ► Seventh annual, by the way, my seventh annual.

00:07:38 ◼   ► So you can go and make your nominations.

00:07:41 ◼   ► You don't have to answer for every category, but you can if you want to.

00:07:46 ◼   ► But you can answer as many as you like there.

00:07:48 ◼   ► And they'll all be taken into account when we do the Upgradies towards the end of the year.

00:07:54 ◼   ► So go to Upgradies.vote and you can cast your votes for this year's Upgradies.

00:08:00 ◼   ► I want to have a little discussion with you, Jason, for Upstream today.

00:08:05 ◼   ► It's not news.

00:08:06 ◼   ► There's some little bits and bobs out there.

00:08:07 ◼   ► But I wanted to actually talk to you about something you sent me a while ago now.

00:08:12 ◼   ► This is a tweet from Rich Lightfield who says Apple TV Plus has meaningfully outperformed Disney Plus in year one in terms on original programming, especially programming for anyone over the age of 10.

00:08:27 ◼   ► Apple don't get enough credit for this, especially with no catalogue or history in content production.

00:08:32 ◼   ► So basically Rich is saying Apple has done a better job than say Disney Plus has with original programming in its first year.

00:08:41 ◼   ► It is a hot take and I love it.

00:08:44 ◼   ► And that is how it is positioned in that original tweet.

00:08:47 ◼   ► Yeah, and I love it.

00:08:49 ◼   ► It is provocative.

00:08:50 ◼   ► It is unfair.

00:08:53 ◼   ► Right?

00:08:53 ◼   ► Like saying Apple TV Plus has outperformed Disney Plus in terms of original programming in year one is a little bit like, I don't know, saying that Michael Jordan was outplayed at baseball by pick a baseball player name.

00:09:13 ◼   ► Like it's not the same game.

00:09:15 ◼   ► They're not playing the same game.

00:09:17 ◼   ► There's a basketball player.

00:09:18 ◼   ► That's baseball.

00:09:18 ◼   ► They're different.

00:09:19 ◼   ► It's like that.

00:09:21 ◼   ► Sorry, I should use a soccer player.

00:09:23 ◼   ► That would make more sense for you.

00:09:24 ◼   ► But Lionel Messi is outplayed at football by Tom Brady.

00:09:30 ◼   ► I actually, having seen The Last Dance, I understood the Michael Jordan reference way more.

00:09:36 ◼   ► Michael Jordan reference better?

00:09:37 ◼   ► Okay.

00:09:37 ◼   ► All right.

00:09:39 ◼   ► So it's not fair.

00:09:39 ◼   ► Disney Plus is different.

00:09:40 ◼   ► Disney Plus is a strategy by Disney that includes Disney's whole catalogue, all of their movies.

00:09:47 ◼   ► It is targeted, like he says, under the age of 10.

00:09:49 ◼   ► It is targeted at families, so it's got a lot of kid content from the Disney archive and some original programming.

00:09:55 ◼   ► And while I share his sentiment, which is I find the Disney Plus launch of original content a little bit disappointing, as an adult, they had some kids programming that was there that people liked.

00:10:09 ◼   ► For me, Disney Plus, the first six months it existed was pretty much just the Mandalorian in terms of things I've been interested in.

00:10:18 ◼   ► They did drop Hamilton.

00:10:20 ◼   ► They've done some other stuff.

00:10:21 ◼   ► I liked the Imagineering series, and I just watched the Marvel 616 one, which was pretty good too.

00:10:28 ◼   ► Not as good as the Imagineering one, but still pretty good.

00:10:30 ◼   ► That one felt more like DVD extras edited together than the other one did.

00:10:34 ◼   ► But yeah, there's good stuff.

00:10:36 ◼   ► And the behind the scenes on the Mandalorian's been good too.

00:10:38 ◼   ► So I think Disney Plus, it's interesting that their whole strategy just is for original content, especially for a broad audience, is still ramping up.

00:10:47 ◼   ► The fact that Disney Plus has been out for a year now and there's still no Marvel series.

00:10:53 ◼   ► And some of that is COVID.

00:10:54 ◼   ► There probably would have been a new Marvel series by now.

00:10:57 ◼   ► But I'm still surprised that they didn't have a Marvel series ready to go two months after their Star Wars series, and they didn't.

00:11:07 ◼   ► But it is a different game because Apple TV Plus has no catalog.

00:11:10 ◼   ► As we've talked about here for years, it has no catalog.

00:11:13 ◼   ► All they can do is original content.

00:11:14 ◼   ► Their whole strategy is original content.

00:11:17 ◼   ► I mean, technically they do have a catalog.

00:11:19 ◼   ► There are a few things that they've bought.

00:11:20 ◼   ► They've got the Peanuts catalog now.

00:11:22 ◼   ► They've got those Ewan McGregor, Charlie Borman, what is it?

00:11:26 ◼   ► Motorcycle documentaries that preceded the one that's the Apple original.

00:11:30 ◼   ► Like they have a very few little old stuff, and it's usually tied to new content that they're working on.

00:11:36 ◼   ► But they're an original content factory.

00:11:38 ◼   ► That's what they are.

00:11:39 ◼   ► This person's name was Rich Greenfield, not Rich Lightfield.

00:11:42 ◼   ► He works for a company called Light Shed, so I put them all together.

00:11:45 ◼   ► So maybe we'll put in Rich Light Shield, I apologize.

00:11:50 ◼   ► So Apple is playing a different game than Disney.

00:11:54 ◼   ► It is focused on original content.

00:11:56 ◼   ► They can't make it with Apple's huge catalog of beloved children's animated movies, because they don't have any.

00:12:05 ◼   ► There isn't one.

00:12:06 ◼   ► But what I like about this hot take is the fact that I have spent way more time watching Apple TV+ than Disney+ in the last year.

00:12:17 ◼   ► And that is undeniable.

00:12:19 ◼   ► Way more time.

00:12:20 ◼   ► And not what we expected.

00:12:22 ◼   ► No.

00:12:23 ◼   ► No.

00:12:23 ◼   ► And it's part of like, we talked about HBO Max becoming this sort of, they take the HBO brand, but they broadened it because they want it to be the WarnerMedia broad strategy.

00:12:31 ◼   ► They want to end up being like Netflix.

00:12:33 ◼   ► And Apple TV+ is kind of being like HBO was, which is, it's a smaller set of content, but it's original content and with high production values.

00:12:44 ◼   ► And we'll see how it goes for them.

00:12:47 ◼   ► But they, and I certainly haven't watched a lot of Apple's output.

00:12:53 ◼   ► I have picked and chosen.

00:12:55 ◼   ► But I still watched way more and spent way more time.

00:12:59 ◼   ► Even with the first and second seasons of the Mandalorian and Hamilton and some other stuff on their Imagineering story, the behind the scenes, I've definitely spent more time on Apple TV+.

00:13:09 ◼   ► And I find that surprising.

00:13:11 ◼   ► Yeah.

00:13:11 ◼   ► The shows that I have watched from Apple's content, I have loved way more than the stuff I've seen from Disney's.

00:13:17 ◼   ► And I still haven't seen the Mandalorian.

00:13:20 ◼   ► It's next up for our show stuff.

00:13:21 ◼   ► I haven't seen any of it.

00:13:23 ◼   ► But I was kind of expecting, I think we all were maybe expecting more from Disney in year one and understandably they have been delayed.

00:13:34 ◼   ► Right.

00:13:35 ◼   ► I think some of this stuff has been delayed.

00:13:37 ◼   ► I'm still eagerly awaiting a lot of their Marvel TV shows.

00:13:40 ◼   ► And, you know, and I'm sure that's going to be great.

00:13:43 ◼   ► But it's not like I haven't used Disney+.

00:13:45 ◼   ► We watched all the Marvel movies, pretty much every single Pixar movie.

00:13:50 ◼   ► But the point here is that it's like the original content.

00:13:54 ◼   ► I was maybe expecting more from Disney like you were as well.

00:13:59 ◼   ► But all of the original content of Apple's that I have watched, I have loved.

00:14:03 ◼   ► So that includes For All Mankind, The Morning Show, Mythic Quest and Ted Lasso.

00:14:10 ◼   ► That's the stuff that I've watched all of it of.

00:14:12 ◼   ► And I've really loved all of those.

00:14:15 ◼   ► I think they've done a great job and I eagerly await more of them.

00:14:19 ◼   ► But it's just been interesting to see a thing that I don't think any of us would have expected is that Apple has actually done a very good job and actually very good compared to some of their competitors as well, which I just didn't really seem like that was going to be the way that this ended up shaking out.

00:14:40 ◼   ► Yeah, and it's launch stuff too, right?

00:14:43 ◼   ► Like this is all getting the machinery running and then COVID has placed an extra roadblock in getting that machinery running.

00:14:52 ◼   ► So it's going to take a while for us to see this.

00:14:55 ◼   ► And I understand the argument that people could very easily make and would be correct is that Disney didn't have to.

00:14:59 ◼   ► Well, that's exactly right.

00:15:01 ◼   ► That's exactly right.

00:15:02 ◼   ► Like the number one value proposition of Disney+ is the Disney library.

00:15:07 ◼   ► Yeah.

00:15:07 ◼   ► It's not the originals.

00:15:08 ◼   ► No.

00:15:09 ◼   ► For me, the number one proposition is the originals.

00:15:14 ◼   ► I'm less interested in the library.

00:15:16 ◼   ► In fact, the Disney library content that I am interested in, I bought all of it.

00:15:23 ◼   ► I already have most of it.

00:15:24 ◼   ► Yeah.

00:15:25 ◼   ► So going forward, that's not going to be the case.

00:15:27 ◼   ► And that actually will add value.

00:15:29 ◼   ► Like there's a new Pixar movie debuting on Christmas and I'm not going to buy that.

00:15:33 ◼   ► And if we want to go back and watch some of the Pixar movies that I haven't bought, there they are in 4K, HDR, beautiful, Disney+.

00:15:40 ◼   ► Great.

00:15:41 ◼   ► That's fantastic.

00:15:41 ◼   ► They're playing a different game.

00:15:43 ◼   ► But as somebody who is primarily concerned with original programming, I think it's interesting, although not surprising, I suppose.

00:15:51 ◼   ► Apple TV+, all they have is their originals.

00:15:53 ◼   ► That's how they have to do everything.

00:15:55 ◼   ► Disney+ hasn't had to do that yet.

00:15:57 ◼   ► But I do think it changes the value proposition, especially if you are not somebody with younger kids to look at Disney+.

00:16:05 ◼   ► And that's why Disney+ in the end does have to cultivate the Marvel audience and the Star Wars audience and other audiences to make it a broad-based service.

00:16:13 ◼   ► But it's not surprising they started with their strength.

00:16:15 ◼   ► It's not.

00:16:16 ◼   ► All right, this episode is brought to you by our friends over at SaneBox.

00:16:24 ◼   ► Email is such a huge time waster at work.

00:16:28 ◼   ► So much of my time is taken up by email.

00:16:30 ◼   ► I know that so much of your time is, too.

00:16:33 ◼   ► You know, like how many hours of the day are you in your email inbox tending to the stuff that's coming in, dealing with the junk that you don't want to see?

00:16:41 ◼   ► And also, another thing is like just emails that never need your answer at all.

00:16:47 ◼   ► If they ever need a reply, they're just not unnecessary email.

00:16:50 ◼   ► This is the thing that we're all seeing.

00:16:51 ◼   ► Time wasting email is a huge time waster.

00:16:56 ◼   ► Imagine if you could get rid of that with just some press of a magic button that's all gone.

00:17:01 ◼   ► You can't delete all of your email.

00:17:03 ◼   ► Wouldn't it be great if you could just press that magic button?

00:17:05 ◼   ► It's exactly what SaneBox does.

00:17:07 ◼   ► Just a few clicks, SaneBox will automatically get your email under control for you, filtering out all of the messages that don't need your focus, don't need your time or attention.

00:17:19 ◼   ► You don't have to switch email apps, you don't have to go to a new service because it works in whichever email client you already use.

00:17:25 ◼   ► And it also has some nifty features.

00:17:27 ◼   ► Like, for example, they have something called the SaneBlackHole.

00:17:29 ◼   ► If you have someone that it just seems like you can't stop them emailing you no matter what you do, if you just drag their email message to the SaneBlackHole folder, you will never hear from them ever again, which is a very powerful tool.

00:17:43 ◼   ► I find myself on these email newsletters every now and then, and it seems like I can't unsubscribe from them.

00:17:48 ◼   ► And I don't know why.

00:17:49 ◼   ► Even if I press the unsubscribe button, I just drag them to the same black hole.

00:17:53 ◼   ► Gone. Forever.

00:17:54 ◼   ► One of my other favorite features is the SaneNews filter.

00:17:58 ◼   ► So it looks at the emails coming in and it moves the stuff away that's a newsletter into a folder called SaneNews.

00:18:04 ◼   ► And then whenever I want to go and read my email newsletters, I just open up that folder and they're all there, which is great because they're not filling up my email inbox, they're not taking away my attention.

00:18:13 ◼   ► But I'm also getting the value out of the email newsletters that I choose to subscribe to or pay to subscribe to at the time that I want to get to them.

00:18:21 ◼   ► So that's like a great weekend activity to me.

00:18:23 ◼   ► Go into the SaneNews folder, see what's there, read what I want.

00:18:27 ◼   ► Lovely.

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00:18:40 ◼   ► That's SaneBox.com/upgradefm.

00:18:45 ◼   ► Our thanks to SaneBox for their support of this show and Relay FM.

00:18:48 ◼   ► Jason, a couple of days ago, you mentioned to me in a Slack message that you'd switched your SIM over to the iPhone 12 mini.

00:18:57 ◼   ► Yes.

00:18:59 ◼   ► Can I ask you what prompted that decision and how are you feeling about it?

00:19:04 ◼   ► Well, I haven't written my review of the big and little phone because it happened so late that...

00:19:10 ◼   ► Are you going to write something?

00:19:13 ◼   ► You are still...

00:19:14 ◼   ► I mean, they sent them to me.

00:19:16 ◼   ► I feel like I do need to, but I'm just trying to take a totally different approach because everybody's, you know...

00:19:24 ◼   ► The moment has passed for like those immediate reviews, so it needs to be something about using it in the long run.

00:19:28 ◼   ► And I had been using the 12 mini like around the house on Wi-Fi and stuff, and I thought, this is silly.

00:19:34 ◼   ► I need to commit and put the SIM card in and move my Apple Watch over to it and just have it be my primary phone.

00:19:44 ◼   ► Yeah, exactly.

00:19:45 ◼   ► And so I did that maybe a week ago.

00:19:52 ◼   ► You've done a lot of fun moving this year, right?

00:19:54 ◼   ► Oh, I hit, just as an aside, I hit the device limit for Apple devices, and you may be thinking it's the five max limit for Apple music.

00:20:03 ◼   ► It's not.

00:20:04 ◼   ► It's the 10 Apple devices active limit for Apple music.

00:20:10 ◼   ► And I was trying to play Apple music while writing on my new MacBook Air, and it said, I'm sorry, you can't.

00:20:17 ◼   ► You have reached the...

00:20:18 ◼   ► You have the most Apple devices on your account.

00:20:21 ◼   ► And I went to the page where they let you turn off Apple devices and say, no, this is not on my account anymore.

00:20:29 ◼   ► And nine of the 10 couldn't be removed because they were added to recently.

00:20:35 ◼   ► Only the last Intel iMac, which I reviewed back in August, was eligible to be removed because there's like a 90 day window.

00:20:45 ◼   ► And so I basically hit, and I'm now back at that limit, having attached my MacBook Air to it.

00:20:53 ◼   ► I have hit that limit, the other limit, the 10 active Apple devices streaming on Apple music on one Apple ID.

00:21:00 ◼   ► And this happens to me from time to time where I get worried that somebody, maybe it's a bank for Apple Pay, or maybe it's Apple itself, is going to say, this account is suspicious.

00:21:11 ◼   ► It has way too many devices coming on and off of it.

00:21:14 ◼   ► We're just going to turn it off or lock it or reject it or whatever.

00:21:18 ◼   ► It hasn't happened yet, but the closest I've come recently is the Apple Music 10 devices thing.

00:21:23 ◼   ► Because I've been moving through a lot of devices, right?

00:21:26 ◼   ► I had that iMac and the iPad Air and four models of iPhone.

00:21:33 ◼   ► And what I should probably do is a dummy account, maybe even a fake family member or something.

00:21:41 ◼   ► But I don't want to...

00:21:42 ◼   ► You need to use it with your real stuff, I think, if you're going to use and review something.

00:21:47 ◼   ► So anyway, so many devices.

00:21:49 ◼   ► The only thing like this I ever have any issues with is the app specific password thing for iCloud accounts.

00:21:56 ◼   ► Like for calendars and stuff.

00:21:58 ◼   ► Yeah, I don't do that anymore.

00:22:00 ◼   ► That's the only thing I ever have any problems with, with that kind of stuff.

00:22:03 ◼   ► But that's funny.

00:22:03 ◼   ► So there's a 90 day window for being able to remove them?

00:22:07 ◼   ► Yeah, because the idea there is that they don't want you cycling devices through Apple IDs.

00:22:14 ◼   ► And so a device can only be attached to another Apple ID 90 days after it's been detached from...

00:22:23 ◼   ► or 90 days after it was attached to the previous Apple ID, I guess is how it works.

00:22:29 ◼   ► And so you end up in this mode where if you cycle a lot of devices onto your iCloud account,

00:22:34 ◼   ► you will end up hitting or your Apple ID, you'll hit the limit.

00:22:37 ◼   ► And I've been so busy with new Apple devices this fall that it turns out,

00:22:43 ◼   ► apparently I've connected 10 of them.

00:22:46 ◼   ► Well, not 10, including my iMac, right?

00:22:48 ◼   ► So nine of them to this account.

00:22:55 ◼   ► So yeah, it's been...

00:22:58 ◼   ► I had a lot of products, including all those phones.

00:23:01 ◼   ► So yeah, there's been a lot going on.

00:23:04 ◼   ► It's funny because I was just thinking like, oh, it's been a weird year for device releases, you know.

00:23:12 ◼   ► This is probably just every year now.

00:23:16 ◼   ► It may be.

00:23:17 ◼   ► With the amount.

00:23:18 ◼   ► I mean, it was, yeah.

00:23:19 ◼   ► So I ended up with an iMac, an iPad, four phones, three Macs, three M1 Macs.

00:23:29 ◼   ► That's nine.

00:23:31 ◼   ► And then the 10th was, I think, my computer.

00:23:34 ◼   ► It's maybe possible that in future years, you wouldn't have to have, not have to have, but you know what I mean,

00:23:40 ◼   ► all four phones, like if they do come out all at the same time, which is what they will ideally do.

00:23:46 ◼   ► I want all four.

00:23:47 ◼   ► And in the past, I've always gotten every model.

00:23:49 ◼   ► So that will, you know, hopefully that will continue.

00:23:51 ◼   ► I think having three Macs land on one day is unlikely.

00:23:56 ◼   ► Yeah, okay.

00:23:57 ◼   ► Yeah, yeah, yeah.

00:23:58 ◼   ► That doesn't happen that often.

00:23:59 ◼   ► I mean, the last time anything like that I think happened was when in 2018 when they did the MacBook Air and the Mac Mini update.

00:24:05 ◼   ► And so there were two new Macs landing on that day.

00:24:08 ◼   ► But you know, these are minor problems.

00:24:10 ◼   ► It's just funny because I'm just using a regular, it's just my Apple ID that I've always had.

00:24:14 ◼   ► Like I'm not using some magic special Apple ID.

00:24:17 ◼   ► And then when you use it in a way that's not expected, weird things can happen.

00:24:24 ◼   ► Full credit to only one of my banks got fed up with all of the Apple pays and said, "You need to call."

00:24:32 ◼   ► Okay.

00:24:33 ◼   ► All right, fair.

00:24:34 ◼   ► It's fair.

00:24:36 ◼   ► So going back to the iPhone 12 Mini itself, have you had any kind of new revelations with using it kind of more as your phone rather than just a curiosity?

00:24:48 ◼   ► Well, so our friend Quinn, it's Nazzi Q, a friend of the show, friend of the network, podcaster on the network.

00:24:57 ◼   ► He started using a Mini, 12 Mini.

00:25:01 ◼   ► He loves it.

00:25:01 ◼   ► Tweeted today, I saw his tweet that said, "Just picked up the iPhone 12 regular and it's hilariously large."

00:25:12 ◼   ► And I want to co-sign that.

00:25:14 ◼   ► You spend a little time with that iPhone 12 Mini and then you pick up a regular iPhone 12 and you think, "Oh no, no, it can't be.

00:25:22 ◼   ► This is ridiculous.

00:25:23 ◼   ► Is this the Macs?

00:25:24 ◼   ► No, this is the regular?"

00:25:27 ◼   ► That's how I feel about it.

00:25:29 ◼   ► I am loving the Mini.

00:25:31 ◼   ► It feels so natural to use it.

00:25:33 ◼   ► I don't feel like I'm missing anything at all.

00:25:37 ◼   ► The screen, I don't ever have a moment where I'm like, "Oh, this screen is so small."

00:25:41 ◼   ► The only quirk that I've noticed that made me really laugh is sometimes in my pocket, the iPhone 12 Mini can turn entirely sideways.

00:25:54 ◼   ► Like, "No, no, phone, I don't want you that direction, but it can fit in my pocket sideways."

00:26:04 ◼   ► I mean, I could get my phone in my pocket sideways, but I can't move my leg after that.

00:26:08 ◼   ► It's because you wear clown pants.

00:26:12 ◼   ► That's why.

00:26:12 ◼   ► It's just messy sweatpants at the moment.

00:26:15 ◼   ► Oh, okay.

00:26:15 ◼   ► That's, well, it's 2020.

00:26:17 ◼   ► I get it.

00:26:19 ◼   ► Yeah, I had a moment where I was walking and just wearing jeans and it turned sideways in my pocket.

00:26:24 ◼   ► I thought, "Oh boy, this is ridiculous."

00:26:26 ◼   ► But yeah, I love it.

00:26:27 ◼   ► And the screen size works great for me.

00:26:30 ◼   ► And it's really fun to take it around.

00:26:33 ◼   ► Like, mostly it's just around the house, but I'm like, "I'll just look at my phone here."

00:26:37 ◼   ► And it's this teeny tiny thing and it's great.

00:26:40 ◼   ► So, my short review for this podcast is it is everything of the iPhone 12, which I already liked, but less is more.

00:26:55 ◼   ► I look forward to actually being able to hold and use one at some point in the future.

00:26:59 ◼   ► I've never seen one.

00:27:01 ◼   ► Never seen one.

00:27:03 ◼   ► Which is such a strange thing.

00:27:04 ◼   ► It's like, "There's this iPhone out there, but I haven't seen it."

00:27:08 ◼   ► I don't know anybody that's got one.

00:27:10 ◼   ► Come on over to my house.

00:27:11 ◼   ► Check it out.

00:27:11 ◼   ► I'll just pop it.

00:27:13 ◼   ► Once the lockdown eases, you can pop into the Apple Store and just caress all their phones.

00:27:19 ◼   ► Yeah.

00:27:21 ◼   ► They're going to have to wipe you down first.

00:27:22 ◼   ► Yeah, I don't think I...

00:27:24 ◼   ► I still don't want to go to the Apple Store inside.

00:27:27 ◼   ► They need like an open-air Apple Store.

00:27:28 ◼   ► That's what they need next.

00:27:30 ◼   ► Open-air Apple Store.

00:27:30 ◼   ► I'm sure that will go really well.

00:27:32 ◼   ► On the roof of Covent Garden.

00:27:36 ◼   ► You know what I also want to talk to you about today?

00:27:37 ◼   ► I saw you...

00:27:38 ◼   ► Again, we were talking about this and then you wrote a little post about it, which I

00:27:41 ◼   ► think was good because you've been holding the torch for questioning some of the security

00:27:47 ◼   ► decisions that Apple's been making on Mac OS over the last couple of years.

00:27:52 ◼   ► You were very strong and have been strong about some of the changes in Catalina.

00:27:56 ◼   ► I don't think you're trying to burn them at the stake kind of thing, but kind of pointing

00:28:02 ◼   ► out that like, okay, this is how the situation is, do we need it to be this way?

00:28:08 ◼   ► And you wrote a post about some of the security changes with security on the M1 Macs, which

00:28:15 ◼   ► is even more strict than it is on Big Sur alone.

00:28:20 ◼   ► Can you talk to me about what this is?

00:28:22 ◼   ► Sure.

00:28:23 ◼   ► And you know, my concern about this is not that I want Macs to be less secure and I want

00:28:28 ◼   ► Mac users to be insecure because I don't.

00:28:30 ◼   ► My concern as I expressed with Catalina last summer, summer of 2019, is that sometimes

00:28:38 ◼   ► I feel like Apple security team decisions carry maybe more weight than the user experience

00:28:45 ◼   ► ramifications of those decisions.

00:28:47 ◼   ► And it is a balance, right?

00:28:49 ◼   ► We have learned, I think, in terms of computer security, that there are often cases where

00:28:56 ◼   ► probably more security makes for a worse product or it makes things less secure because human

00:29:01 ◼   ► beings will then do things to evade security.

00:29:04 ◼   ► And I feel like Apple has a reputation.

00:29:07 ◼   ► Apple has this focus on its users and on their experience using their devices and that sometimes

00:29:14 ◼   ► the security needs that Apple feels override.

00:29:18 ◼   ► And I don't know what's going on on the inside, but it sure feels like sometimes if there's

00:29:22 ◼   ► an argument between security and user experience that security just wins.

00:29:27 ◼   ► And again, I want security, but I feel like there's got to be a little more of a focus

00:29:34 ◼   ► on making sure that the security comes without eroding ease of use of software and the whole

00:29:41 ◼   ► experience of people using a Mac.

00:29:44 ◼   ► And obviously with Catalina, there are lots of, on launch, you get all sorts of alerts

00:29:49 ◼   ► or you download software and you get all sorts of alerts and sometimes you have to go to,

00:29:55 ◼   ► you open an app and it says, well, now you need to open the system preferences app and

00:29:58 ◼   ► go to this very particular pane and then put in your password by clicking the lock screen

00:30:02 ◼   ► or the little lock icon and then go over and find the app and then check the box.

00:30:07 ◼   ► And then it'll say, you need to quit and relaunch this app in order for it to work right.

00:30:13 ◼   ► And in Catalina, there was a button that says, or it says like, this app is a bad app and

00:30:19 ◼   ► you shouldn't use it.

00:30:20 ◼   ► Yeah, that's right.

00:30:21 ◼   ► This app is, could be malware.

00:30:22 ◼   ► And in Catalina, it would say, you need to quit and relaunch.

00:30:27 ◼   ► Here's a button to quit it, relaunch it in big Sur actually.

00:30:32 ◼   ► Well quit it and relaunch it, which is nice.

00:30:34 ◼   ► It's like, yeah, you're a computer.

00:30:35 ◼   ► You know how to do that.

00:30:36 ◼   ► You should just do that.

00:30:37 ◼   ► So audio hijack, which is a fantastic piece of software that anybody who records audio

00:30:42 ◼   ► on the Mac probably already uses or should use from rogue Amoeba.

00:30:48 ◼   ► They had to do a lot of work this summer for big Sur.

00:30:50 ◼   ► There were a bunch of security changes in Mac OS big Sur that made it very hard for

00:30:54 ◼   ► their audio capture engine, ACE, that is at the core of most of the rogue Amoeba apps to

00:31:03 ◼   ► work with big Sur.

00:31:04 ◼   ► And they had to work with Apple is my understanding to get it to work.

00:31:08 ◼   ► And it works.

00:31:09 ◼   ► They released a big Sur version right about the time the big Sur came out.

00:31:13 ◼   ► So that's great.

00:31:14 ◼   ► Great story.

00:31:15 ◼   ► And on Intel Macs, you have to install the system extension using this system extension

00:31:22 ◼   ► path.

00:31:23 ◼   ► It's not a kernel extension for those who are super nerdy.

00:31:26 ◼   ► It's not.

00:31:27 ◼   ► It's actually just an Apple approved method of extending the system that I think Apple

00:31:32 ◼   ► specifically advised rogue Amoeba to use in this situation.

00:31:36 ◼   ► But if you do it, you have to approve that in the system preferences.

00:31:40 ◼   ► And then it says, I need to reboot your Mac.

00:31:44 ◼   ► The system extension thing is the path for stuff like kernel extensions in the future,

00:31:49 ◼   ► though, right?

00:31:50 ◼   ► Like they're getting rid of the old system and they have a new system that is more separated

00:31:56 ◼   ► and approved by Apple and you have to get things signed and approved and all of these

00:32:00 ◼   ► things and then there's this whole security pathway you go into.

00:32:04 ◼   ► But just to be clear, unlike some hardware things that might be, they're replacing kernel

00:32:09 ◼   ► extensions with these signed extensions, but that's what this is.

00:32:12 ◼   ► This is not a kernel extension.

00:32:15 ◼   ► It's just a signed system extension from rogue Amoeba.

00:32:19 ◼   ► You still have to reboot on an Intel Mac.

00:32:24 ◼   ► On an M1 Mac, you have to reboot multiple times.

00:32:29 ◼   ► On an M1 Mac, it says, hey, you want to install this thing.

00:32:34 ◼   ► You go through all this process and it says, wait, you can't install this thing because

00:32:37 ◼   ► your Mac is at highest security and you need to lower the security of your Mac in order

00:32:43 ◼   ► to allow this thing to run at all.

00:32:45 ◼   ► So click here and reboot and hold down the power button.

00:32:48 ◼   ► So you get to the new startup options screen and you have to go in and rogue Amoeba has

00:32:54 ◼   ► a hilariously detailed, it's great, but the hilarity is that they have to do this.

00:32:59 ◼   ► A hilariously detailed explanation of how you get to the right screen so that you can

00:33:05 ◼   ► check the box that says lower my security, which is like, it's scare words.

00:33:14 ◼   ► There is no lowest security setting on M1 Macs.

00:33:16 ◼   ► There's only sort of like high and lower.

00:33:19 ◼   ► Full security and reduced security.

00:33:22 ◼   ► Reduced security, that's the name of it.

00:33:23 ◼   ► And then you have to check a box that says allow a kernel extensions, which it's not,

00:33:28 ◼   ► but you still have to check that box that says allow kernel extensions.

00:33:32 ◼   ► And then you reboot again.

00:33:36 ◼   ► So I guess, you know, technically you could say that it's three reboots.

00:33:41 ◼   ► So anyway, you have to reboot again to get back there.

00:33:43 ◼   ► I think what frustrates me about this is if someone can and will make a very detailed

00:33:51 ◼   ► support document outlining how you do this, what's the point in having it?

00:33:58 ◼   ► Well, I think, I mean, you're right.

00:34:02 ◼   ► This is always the argument about the security stuff is if a user can override it, this is

00:34:05 ◼   ► how malware spreads.

00:34:06 ◼   ► Now, like Apple's got the whole gatekeeper thing and all of that, but you can still say,

00:34:10 ◼   ► well, for this, for our app, you need to, you can't just open it.

00:34:13 ◼   ► You have to hold down the control key and click on it and then choose open.

00:34:16 ◼   ► They step you through the ways to subvert the security system.

00:34:19 ◼   ► Like that already happens.

00:34:22 ◼   ► That's already a thing that happens.

00:34:23 ◼   ► So that I, you know, I think this has to be signed and all of that.

00:34:27 ◼   ► So there's like extra Apple security and scrutiny that goes on these things.

00:34:31 ◼   ► But it's a good question.

00:34:34 ◼   ► I haven't gotten, by the way, we're not out of the reboot loop yet because once you set

00:34:39 ◼   ► the reduced security and boot back into Mac OS and you do your technically second reboot,

00:34:45 ◼   ► it's not, it's only two reboots out of the user.

00:34:48 ◼   ► But there's three reboots.

00:34:50 ◼   ► You get to hear the chime three times.

00:34:52 ◼   ► That's fun.

00:34:53 ◼   ► You go back and now you're back where you were before, which is at the system preferences

00:34:57 ◼   ► dialogue where it says, do you want to install this thing, put in your password.

00:35:03 ◼   ► And of course, so basically what you've done is you've lowered it to the level of security

00:35:07 ◼   ► that's on an Intel Mac.

00:35:09 ◼   ► Remember, Intel Macs still had to reboot to install it and indeed M1 Macs will need to

00:35:15 ◼   ► reboot to install it.

00:35:17 ◼   ► So you will do another reboot.

00:35:19 ◼   ► You will hear that chime another time and then it works and it's great that it works

00:35:25 ◼   ► and it's a great piece of software and it is not rogue Amoeba's fault that they are in

00:35:29 ◼   ► this situation.

00:35:31 ◼   ► And this is where I think I am trying to be very understanding about the hard job that

00:35:35 ◼   ► Apple security people have with Mac OS because Mac OS was built at a very different time

00:35:41 ◼   ► and security needs were very different then.

00:35:43 ◼   ► And so we have these operating systems, these older operating systems that are not locked

00:35:46 ◼   ► down like iOS is, and they're trying to bring in concepts from iOS and lock down a thing

00:35:53 ◼   ► that was never designed to be that way.

00:35:55 ◼   ► And it's hard.

00:35:56 ◼   ► I like, I totally get that it's a hard job and they're trying to protect users and from

00:36:00 ◼   ► bad actors and there are bad actors out there.

00:36:02 ◼   ► I get it.

00:36:04 ◼   ► I do though have those moments where I think surely somebody has to look at this step of

00:36:11 ◼   ► instructions, this set of instructions, which is like the worst kind of installation process

00:36:16 ◼   ► that you would have to install a third party scanner, SCSI scanner in the 1990s.

00:36:22 ◼   ► Like it is a blast from the past in a bad way and say, what can we do to make this not

00:36:31 ◼   ► take two or three, depending on who you ask, reboots to get the desired effect?

00:36:38 ◼   ► What can we do?

00:36:39 ◼   ► And be clever about it because you can make the argument.

00:36:41 ◼   ► It's like, look, this is the system.

00:36:43 ◼   ► You know, it's those typical Apple arguments where it's like Apple can do anything at once,

00:36:47 ◼   ► but not this.

00:36:49 ◼   ► This is too hard for Apple.

00:36:50 ◼   ► It's like, I don't believe it's too hard for Apple.

00:36:52 ◼   ► I think Apple should scrutinize a decision like this and say, what could we do?

00:36:58 ◼   ► Could we allow the user to authorize the installation of the kernel extension or in this case system

00:37:04 ◼   ► extension in advance so that on the next reboot, if we were in reduced security mode, it would

00:37:12 ◼   ► be installed and then kick off a reboot.

00:37:16 ◼   ► Is there a way for us to set that on the reboot, we're going to go after you authenticate straight

00:37:22 ◼   ► to that screen and allow you to click the button and check the box rather than have

00:37:27 ◼   ► to check your instruction sheet in order to figure out how to navigate to it and get there?

00:37:33 ◼   ► Maybe that's something we could do and maybe they will get there.

00:37:35 ◼   ► I mean, this is the first generation of M1 Macs.

00:37:37 ◼   ► This is some new stuff that's in Big Sur.

00:37:40 ◼   ► Rogue Amoeba may be the first piece of software that has really tested this approach because

00:37:44 ◼   ► they're longtime Mac developers.

00:37:46 ◼   ► They actually really care about their users and they care about the Mac and they made

00:37:51 ◼   ► the effort over this summer to figure all this stuff out, which is good for them.

00:37:57 ◼   ► So maybe they are causing Apple to think about these things and we will see Apple move positively

00:38:02 ◼   ► in this direction.

00:38:03 ◼   ► But I just wanted to call it out because first off, it's great that it works because I get

00:38:08 ◼   ► the sense from looking at what's going on here that they had to do a huge amount of

00:38:11 ◼   ► work to get their software to run on Big Sur at all and on Apple Silicon especially.

00:38:16 ◼   ► But also to say this is one of those examples where Apple has leaned forward with its security

00:38:21 ◼   ► and it's caused a huge step backward in the user experience.

00:38:26 ◼   ► And I don't think Apple, like the soul of the Mac is prioritizing good user experience.

00:38:35 ◼   ► And there are these moments where I look at stuff and I think the security people put

00:38:40 ◼   ► this in and either user experience was overridden or not given a chance to participate in the

00:38:46 ◼   ► process and you end up with something that is secure but terrible.

00:38:51 ◼   ► And secure but terrible is not, I mean it's not much of a slogan in general, but it's

00:38:56 ◼   ► something that Apple needs to not be about.

00:38:58 ◼   ► Apple wants to be about security and privacy, but not at the expense of user experience.

00:39:06 ◼   ► This episode is brought to you by Pingdom from SolarWinds.

00:39:09 ◼   ► While you've been listening to this podcast, how would you know if your website had gone

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00:40:49 ◼   ► So there's been a slew of new rumours from Ming-Chi Kuo, friend of the show, because

00:40:58 ◼   ► yes it is time to talk about more upcoming products because there are products still

00:41:03 ◼   ► upcoming, very upcoming in fact.

00:41:06 ◼   ► We may have had an incredibly busy last couple of months but we're very aware of the fact

00:41:11 ◼   ► that Apple is at a point right now where there are many of their product lines that are seemingly

00:41:19 ◼   ► in need of or expected to be updated than I think we would typically see.

00:41:24 ◼   ► We know all the Macs are going to be updated and we're expecting some in some significant

00:41:29 ◼   ► ways.

00:41:30 ◼   ► Obviously we know the things that we know are updated on an annual basis, the phones,

00:41:34 ◼   ► the watches, whatever, but also because of the introduction of the very pro-seeming iPad

00:41:40 ◼   ► Air, we are expecting a significant update to the iPad Pro as well.

00:41:45 ◼   ► So there is a selection of rumours and reports from Ming-Chi Kuo who is I think, I would

00:41:53 ◼   ► say one of if not the most reliable supply chain reporter.

00:41:59 ◼   ► I think so.

00:42:01 ◼   ► Which is why there are two people whose reports we will always give time to on this show.

00:42:07 ◼   ► One is Kuo's, the other is German's.

00:42:10 ◼   ► The track records are very, very good.

00:42:14 ◼   ► For Ming-Chi Kuo at least, especially getting things within a certain area, right?

00:42:18 ◼   ► Detail can sometimes be a bit shaky but he usually has a pretty good idea of things in

00:42:25 ◼   ► general.

00:42:26 ◼   ► One of the rumours, I think this is maybe one of the more unexpected of the three categories

00:42:30 ◼   ► we're going to talk about today, is a rumoured new form factor for Apple Watch.

00:42:36 ◼   ► So one of the quotes from Ming-Chi Kuo's report, which is coming to us via 9to5Macrumours report

00:42:42 ◼   ► on this from today, says innovative health management functions and improved form factor

00:42:48 ◼   ► design.

00:42:50 ◼   ► So part one of that is a given, right?

00:42:53 ◼   ► innovative health management functions, there's always going to be new health stuff for the

00:42:57 ◼   ► Apple Watch.

00:42:58 ◼   ► I don't know what new sensors will be next up but there's always going to be something.

00:43:05 ◼   ► But improved form factor design is different to me.

00:43:09 ◼   ► It's an interesting thought.

00:43:11 ◼   ► We didn't really get much of that from 4to5 but the 3to4 was a big change where they kind

00:43:16 ◼   ► of made the screen more edge to edge like.

00:43:19 ◼   ► They changed the sizes, the actual physical sizes of the watches as well.

00:43:25 ◼   ► In your mind, what could a new form factor for the Apple Watch Series 7 look like?

00:43:32 ◼   ► I think you mean improved form factor, right?

00:43:34 ◼   ► Which is not the same.

00:43:35 ◼   ► First off, by the way, I just want to say form factor.

00:43:37 ◼   ► I hate it.

00:43:38 ◼   ► It's a weird phrase, right?

00:43:40 ◼   ► It's done.

00:43:41 ◼   ► Shape design.

00:43:42 ◼   ► I wrote it a bunch today and was like, I don't think I like this phrase.

00:43:46 ◼   ► I don't like the word at all.

00:43:48 ◼   ► If you listen to or read any of my 20 max or 2020 things, you will note the lack of

00:43:55 ◼   ► form factor.

00:43:56 ◼   ► I'm not interested in that phrase.

00:43:59 ◼   ► It's dumb.

00:44:01 ◼   ► A new design for the Apple Watch.

00:44:02 ◼   ► Well, he says improved design for the Apple Watch, doesn't he?

00:44:05 ◼   ► What does that mean?

00:44:06 ◼   ► My guess is it will be the same round-rect because that's like what the Apple Watch looks

00:44:14 ◼   ► like now, but it will be thinner.

00:44:20 ◼   ► Maybe there'll be other changes to it.

00:44:22 ◼   ► You put it in our notes.

00:44:23 ◼   ► Maybe it joins the flat sides revolution.

00:44:27 ◼   ► I don't know.

00:44:28 ◼   ► That would be interesting.

00:44:29 ◼   ► I looked at my Apple Watch today as I was thinking about this and I was like, yes, thinner.

00:44:33 ◼   ► I always want thinner.

00:44:34 ◼   ► I always asking for thinner.

00:44:35 ◼   ► The Apple Watch is too thick.

00:44:36 ◼   ► It has always been too thick.

00:44:37 ◼   ► I agree.

00:44:38 ◼   ► It's still too thick.

00:44:39 ◼   ► When I looked at it, I was like, I see a lot of the case.

00:44:42 ◼   ► I don't have to see so much of it.

00:44:45 ◼   ► They could bring it in.

00:44:47 ◼   ► I don't know if it would go flat sides, but could, and I think should, have a flatter

00:44:53 ◼   ► side aesthetic.

00:44:55 ◼   ► I think you could maybe go halfway, still see a little bit of the case, but instead

00:45:00 ◼   ► of having the rounded edges, maybe flatten those off a little bit on the sides.

00:45:06 ◼   ► I think that would be my guess is that Apple Watch with an improved design would be like

00:45:15 ◼   ► that.

00:45:16 ◼   ► It would be recognizably Apple Watch, but a little bit different.

00:45:20 ◼   ► And I think thinner I'm with you.

00:45:22 ◼   ► I think the number one thing they should do with the Apple Watch design is just keep pushing

00:45:26 ◼   ► it as thin as you possibly can.

00:45:28 ◼   ► Cause it is still too thick.

00:45:29 ◼   ► I've gotten used to it, but you know, if I look at it, I'm like, yeah, that's a, that's

00:45:34 ◼   ► a big thick watch.

00:45:35 ◼   ► It should be thinner.

00:45:36 ◼   ► Try to make it thinner.

00:45:37 ◼   ► That's Steve Jobs is standing over you saying thinner, always thinner, right?

00:45:42 ◼   ► Like that's the, that's the law and it should be, it's got a lot of, and I know it's hard,

00:45:47 ◼   ► right?

00:45:48 ◼   ► But like, that's what they should, they should be focusing on.

00:45:49 ◼   ► I think more than anything is that.

00:45:52 ◼   ► Especially like the thickness of it is accentuated by the fact that it sits off of your wrist

00:45:56 ◼   ► because of the sensors, you know, depending on how tight you have to watch.

00:46:00 ◼   ► I don't have my watch so tight that I'm left of an indent.

00:46:03 ◼   ► I know some people wear their watches that way.

00:46:05 ◼   ► Um, you know, I, I wear of a little looseness cause that's what I like.

00:46:10 ◼   ► Um, but you know, so it's already sitting off of my wrist and then the watch begins.

00:46:15 ◼   ► So it's too thick.

00:46:16 ◼   ► Now I understand what you're saying about the watch design being this rounded rectangle.

00:46:22 ◼   ► Uh, I want, I want a round Apple Watch.

00:46:25 ◼   ► I've always wanted a round Apple Watch.

00:46:26 ◼   ► I really want one.

00:46:28 ◼   ► Um, because I don't like rectangular watches.

00:46:31 ◼   ► I like round watches and I would very much like to see what Apple could do with a design

00:46:37 ◼   ► like that because I've, I really want to see one.

00:46:41 ◼   ► Um, I don't think that there's any reason why they wouldn't try it in the future.

00:46:45 ◼   ► I don't think it's going to be now, but you know, designs are there to be changed and

00:46:50 ◼   ► I could imagine a re-imagining of the Apple Watch in a round form factor in the future.

00:46:54 ◼   ► It's still something I want.

00:46:56 ◼   ► I don't think I'm going to get it anytime soon, but I would really love to see it.

00:47:00 ◼   ► I would love to see it too.

00:47:01 ◼   ► I also don't think it's going to happen because I do think that the Apple Watch shape has

00:47:05 ◼   ► become, um, part of the brand of the Apple Watch.

00:47:10 ◼   ► Right.

00:47:11 ◼   ► I think that the Apple Watch, everybody knows what an Apple Watch looks like.

00:47:13 ◼   ► I was watching a documentary the other day and there's a person with an Apple Watch.

00:47:17 ◼   ► I'm like, "Oh, Apple Watch.

00:47:18 ◼   ► There it is."

00:47:19 ◼   ► Right?

00:47:20 ◼   ► Like you can just, at a glance, you know, it's an Apple Watch.

00:47:21 ◼   ► That's pretty good branding and marketing, right?

00:47:23 ◼   ► That shape, people know what it is.

00:47:25 ◼   ► It's an Apple Watch.

00:47:26 ◼   ► And so that makes it harder to change, but I agree.

00:47:29 ◼   ► Definitely watches around and I would like to see Apple's take on a round watch, but

00:47:35 ◼   ► I don't think they're probably going to do it anytime soon.

00:47:37 ◼   ► If they did, that would be fun.

00:47:39 ◼   ► But I think, uh, I think probably not.

00:47:42 ◼   ► Yeah.

00:47:43 ◼   ► I understand what you're saying, but I also don't agree with it.

00:47:46 ◼   ► Like the idea of like the Apple Watch is recognized as being this because it's what it is.

00:47:51 ◼   ► If they changed it, it would just ultimately be recognized as the new thing that it is

00:47:55 ◼   ► after a period of time.

00:47:57 ◼   ► It's like the iPhone now looks really different to the iPhone, how it used to look.

00:48:00 ◼   ► You just get used to it.

00:48:02 ◼   ► Yeah.

00:48:03 ◼   ► And yet, and yet Apple has kind of carefully evolved that I would say going from a round

00:48:06 ◼   ► rect to a circle is a big change and they're still rapidly growing the Apple Watch.

00:48:12 ◼   ► Um, and so I would be hesitant and I think Apple would be hesitant to move away from

00:48:17 ◼   ► the, the value they get in that defining shape.

00:48:20 ◼   ► In fact, what I would say is if they do a round watch, I suspect that what they'll do

00:48:23 ◼   ► is they'll bifurcate the product line and there'll be two watches.

00:48:26 ◼   ► There'll be a round watch and there'll be the round one.

00:48:28 ◼   ► Yeah, I can imagine that.

00:48:29 ◼   ► Right?

00:48:30 ◼   ► It's Apple Watch classic or whatever.

00:48:32 ◼   ► Like I think that they would probably do it like that because there is value.

00:48:36 ◼   ► Um, I get what you're saying, but I think there's value in, in that shape and that they

00:48:42 ◼   ► still want to have that.

00:48:44 ◼   ► But you're right.

00:48:45 ◼   ► I mean, it's also, it's Apple.

00:48:46 ◼   ► Apple, if they want to, they'll just drop it, right?

00:48:49 ◼   ► Like they've, they've done that before.

00:48:51 ◼   ► If they want to do it, they'll just choose to do it.

00:48:52 ◼   ► If there's anything 20 max for 2020 has taught me so far, Jason, is they'll do a lot of stuff.

00:48:57 ◼   ► Yeah, that's true.

00:48:58 ◼   ► Especially when something's new.

00:48:59 ◼   ► Tim Cook may be less so, but you're right.

00:49:02 ◼   ► Yeah, that's true.

00:49:03 ◼   ► That's true.

00:49:04 ◼   ► You're right.

00:49:05 ◼   ► If they, if they decide that round is the right way to do it and they just up to now,

00:49:07 ◼   ► they have not been able to do round in a way that pleased them and that they finally have

00:49:11 ◼   ► gotten it that way.

00:49:12 ◼   ► Could Apple come up with a brand new Apple Watch this, uh, or in fall of 2021 and say,

00:49:18 ◼   ► you know, here it is, we're breaking compatibility.

00:49:20 ◼   ► Your bands don't work.

00:49:22 ◼   ► Everything's round.

00:49:23 ◼   ► You know, the new, the new version of watchOS, good luck developers.

00:49:27 ◼   ► Like they could, they could do that.

00:49:29 ◼   ► It would be interesting to see what the developer story would be because it would actually be

00:49:33 ◼   ► pretty dramatically painful for watch app developers to deal with that.

00:49:37 ◼   ► Although there are complications within the circular watch faces.

00:49:41 ◼   ► So that would probably be what they did to start.

00:49:43 ◼   ► And then maybe there's like a compatibility mode where apps that are not round play in

00:49:48 ◼   ► a little square inside.

00:49:50 ◼   ► They could do it.

00:49:51 ◼   ► It's just, it's going to cause pain.

00:49:53 ◼   ► When they went from three to four, they broke the complications.

00:49:55 ◼   ► Right.

00:49:56 ◼   ► And it's, and they'll do it if they want to.

00:49:58 ◼   ► Right.

00:49:59 ◼   ► That's the lesson that Apple has taught us is if they want to do it, they're just going

00:50:01 ◼   ► to do it.

00:50:02 ◼   ► They're not going to like watch band compatibility developers being unhappy.

00:50:05 ◼   ► Like if they think that the round watch is the right thing to do, they'll just do it.

00:50:08 ◼   ► And everybody else will be like, all right, I guess we're doing this now.

00:50:11 ◼   ► Yeah.

00:50:12 ◼   ► So like the double down on that point that you just made, right.

00:50:14 ◼   ► Uh, I'm not saying that they will do it, but the idea of it will be difficult for developers

00:50:20 ◼   ► is not a thing that will make Apple choose to not do something.

00:50:26 ◼   ► Like that's not the thing.

00:50:28 ◼   ► If they don't do it, there's a million other reasons.

00:50:30 ◼   ► I, um, I don't think that like, Oh, the fact that developers will have to work hard, like

00:50:35 ◼   ► they've changed products so many times, you know, like even looking at the iPad pro when

00:50:40 ◼   ► they went to the newest screen sizes, like we've got to update your app because they

00:50:45 ◼   ► just don't fit anymore because now you have these black bars on the top and bottom.

00:50:49 ◼   ► So like they will, they will make these changes.

00:50:51 ◼   ► They want to, I don't think they're going to do a round watch, but I want a round watch,

00:50:55 ◼   ► but they should continue to, the Apple watch is still a young enough product that it should

00:51:01 ◼   ► be getting refinements, especially something I'm putting on my body needs more refinements.

00:51:07 ◼   ► Like then I personally, then I think they giving it, um, you know, we're onto the sixth

00:51:12 ◼   ► Apple watch and it's only looked different three times.

00:51:15 ◼   ► Cause you know, I personally, I think that they should be pushing that further than they

00:51:20 ◼   ► have done so far.

00:51:23 ◼   ► So we also have, uh, you know, kind of what we're thinking of as the more pro iPad pro

00:51:28 ◼   ► is what we're expecting, right?

00:51:29 ◼   ► Like we are expecting the next iPad pro to take a leap because that's the way that it

00:51:35 ◼   ► makes sense to us at the moment considering the iPad air.

00:51:40 ◼   ► So Ming-Chi Kuo is reporting that we should see a new iPad pro in the first half of 2021.

00:51:46 ◼   ► You know, it's, it's kind of a little bit unclear exactly when, uh, we'll obviously

00:51:52 ◼   ► see 5g get added to the iPad pro line.

00:51:55 ◼   ► That is an inevitability.

00:51:58 ◼   ► And one of the bigger features that is being rumored is mini led display technology.

00:52:04 ◼   ► This would be the first of many products that Apple is looking to move to this technology.

00:52:10 ◼   ► Apparently Apple, they seem pretty invested in it at this point.

00:52:14 ◼   ► It is expected that it will also come to some max.

00:52:17 ◼   ► We'll talk about that in a bit.

00:52:19 ◼   ► In a nutshell, mini led offers many of the benefits of OLED with the ability to have

00:52:25 ◼   ► higher peak brightness because it's backlit where OLED isn't.

00:52:29 ◼   ► And it also has greater control over local dimming.

00:52:33 ◼   ► So because of all of this, you can get better color reproduction, higher contrast than what

00:52:39 ◼   ► you have on say a Mac or an iPad pro right now.

00:52:44 ◼   ► But because there is a backlight, it cannot reproduce, uh, darks blacks as well as OLED

00:52:49 ◼   ► can.

00:52:50 ◼   ► So it gets you lots of the benefits of OLED, but not all of them.

00:52:56 ◼   ► Right.

00:52:57 ◼   ► Because it's still OLED, the individual pixels are themselves emitting light.

00:53:01 ◼   ► Um, any backlight, there's a light behind the screen that is, that is blasting out light.

00:53:06 ◼   ► And even if they're the teeniest tiniest ones, it's still a black backlight and there's still

00:53:11 ◼   ► light leakage and stuff like that.

00:53:12 ◼   ► But it's, it should be a huge, um, upgrade in terms of, of display quality going to,

00:53:19 ◼   ► to this led technology.

00:53:21 ◼   ► Um, it's just not the same as OLED, but OLED panels are expensive and there's, you know,

00:53:25 ◼   ► that's part of Apple's challenges.

00:53:27 ◼   ► It's OLED panels are expensive even in a phone and then you look at a big iPad screen.

00:53:32 ◼   ► Like that would be an IMAX screen.

00:53:35 ◼   ► Like it's, well, yeah, yeah.

00:53:38 ◼   ► That's you know, it's a TV screen at that point.

00:53:41 ◼   ► So these are the things that are being quoted, but I wanted to talk about what else we would

00:53:47 ◼   ► want to see in a future iPad pro because now these things are interesting, but it doesn't

00:53:53 ◼   ► feel like the entire story.

00:53:55 ◼   ► I would want, you know, the factor that I'm most concerned about is form.

00:53:59 ◼   ► Myke, what about the form?

00:54:02 ◼   ► So what do you have any thoughts in mind for the formacular factor of the iPad pro?

00:54:08 ◼   ► I don't want to factor that form at all.

00:54:09 ◼   ► I like it the way it is.

00:54:10 ◼   ► In fact, it's the standard bearer, right?

00:54:12 ◼   ► It was the one that said, uh, Hey, look at me.

00:54:14 ◼   ► I'm awesome.

00:54:15 ◼   ► You iPhones should look like me now.

00:54:17 ◼   ► Yeah.

00:54:18 ◼   ► I mean, iPhone said you got it boss.

00:54:20 ◼   ► So the iPad pro is in charge is what I'm saying.

00:54:22 ◼   ► The only thing I would want.

00:54:23 ◼   ► They wouldn't be able to do this.

00:54:24 ◼   ► I don't think, but the only thing I would want is for the iPad pro to get lighter, um,

00:54:30 ◼   ► purely because with the magic keyboard with trackpad, it's just overall a heavier package

00:54:36 ◼   ► than I would want.

00:54:38 ◼   ► And I can't imagine them being able to make the magic keyboard any lighter and it still

00:54:42 ◼   ► work properly.

00:54:43 ◼   ► So I want them to somehow magically make the iPad pro a bit lighter.

00:54:47 ◼   ► Um, but I don't know how they would do that.

00:54:49 ◼   ► I don't think helium.

00:54:50 ◼   ► Yeah.

00:54:51 ◼   ► Just fill it with helium.

00:54:53 ◼   ► That's how you do it.

00:54:54 ◼   ► Easy peasy.

00:54:55 ◼   ► Um, here's the thing.

00:54:57 ◼   ► People get asked this a bunch, uh, seeing this question a lot these days, what is the

00:55:01 ◼   ► future of the iPad?

00:55:02 ◼   ► Which chip is inside?

00:55:06 ◼   ► The my guess is that it's going to be something very much like the M one, except they will

00:55:12 ◼   ► probably call it the a 14 X.

00:55:16 ◼   ► But I would be surprised if it's not literally the M one, uh, maybe a binned version of the

00:55:23 ◼   ► M one.

00:55:24 ◼   ► Like, I just, I feel like, cause the M one, although it adds a bunch of stuff that the

00:55:29 ◼   ► Mac needs, I mean, if you look at the number of cores and all that, like, and, and if you

00:55:35 ◼   ► dig into some of the details, it's a very clearly an evolution of the 12 X.

00:55:41 ◼   ► So I think it's a marketing decision.

00:55:44 ◼   ► My guess is that it will essentially be an M one, but just the eight gigabyte of RAM

00:55:49 ◼   ► version or whatever.

00:55:50 ◼   ► Well, or the, again, this is an alternate package that's got six, right?

00:55:55 ◼   ► Like, but it will be, it'll be like, you know, it'll be on a package with less Ram because

00:55:59 ◼   ► the iPad needs less Ram, but yeah, I think it will essentially be the M one more or less.

00:56:05 ◼   ► And uh, that'll be what it is because the M one is an evolution of the eight 12 X.

00:56:09 ◼   ► So why would it not essentially be the eight 14 X and why make two, why make two different

00:56:15 ◼   ► chip designs?

00:56:16 ◼   ► I mean, there are, there are savings potentially, but like I could see the savings being, um,

00:56:23 ◼   ► greater to just have two chip designs.

00:56:24 ◼   ► And especially if you can kind of like use binning to take the, the ones that have, uh,

00:56:30 ◼   ► something a little bit wrong with them.

00:56:31 ◼   ► And those become iPad chips instead of Mac chips.

00:56:33 ◼   ► I don't know.

00:56:34 ◼   ► We'll see, uh, so much for the being the boss of all the products, if it's getting the second

00:56:38 ◼   ► hand chips.

00:56:39 ◼   ► But anyway, that's my guess is that they'll call the 14 X, but people will look at it.

00:56:42 ◼   ► Chip experts will look at it and they'll say, it's really the M one.

00:56:46 ◼   ► But it's not, it'll be pretty easy to guess if the numbers are the same, you know, like

00:56:50 ◼   ► how many, uh, transistors does it have, which I might talk about, like how many machine

00:56:56 ◼   ► learning calls or whatever does it have?

00:56:58 ◼   ► Right?

00:56:59 ◼   ► Like we'll be able to see how much of specs match up.

00:57:02 ◼   ► Yeah, exactly.

00:57:04 ◼   ► And I just don't know, again, I am not a chip designer.

00:57:06 ◼   ► I don't know whether it would be cheaper to make a cheaper version of the M one.

00:57:10 ◼   ► That's more focused on the iPad, uh, or just use the M one.

00:57:15 ◼   ► My general feeling, my gut feeling overview kind of thing would be surely it's easier

00:57:22 ◼   ► to just use an existing design, uh, that you're making for all of these laptops and Mac minis,

00:57:28 ◼   ► rather than do a bespoke chip that is very similar, but for the iPad pro.

00:57:34 ◼   ► Um, and if we do believe that the M one is kind of just a marketing choice by Apple for

00:57:41 ◼   ► what is really an evolution of the a 12 X, then why not sort of take it and put it back

00:57:47 ◼   ► in the iPad pro.

00:57:48 ◼   ► So yeah, we'll, we'll, we'll find out, but my guess is they'll call it a 14 X because

00:57:52 ◼   ► they don't want to confuse people about why is there a Mac chip in the iPad pro?

00:57:57 ◼   ► Um, they could like Apple can do what they want, but that, you know, it might be a more

00:58:02 ◼   ► confusing story to say that the iPad pro also gets the M one.

00:58:06 ◼   ► Then again, they've raved about how great the M one is.

00:58:08 ◼   ► So who knows?

00:58:09 ◼   ► I don't know.

00:58:11 ◼   ► Yeah.

00:58:12 ◼   ► I don't know.

00:58:14 ◼   ► Um, I guess it will, it's definitely not going to be called M one no matter what it is, even

00:58:22 ◼   ► if it was the same, a 14 X.

00:58:25 ◼   ► Yeah.

00:58:26 ◼   ► What about accessories?

00:58:27 ◼   ► Do you want new or amended accessories for the iPad pro?

00:58:31 ◼   ► I mean, the challenge is the magic keyboard size.

00:58:35 ◼   ► Like are they gonna, are they gonna adjust the size of the iPad pro?

00:58:38 ◼   ► Are they going to make a bigger iPad pro?

00:58:41 ◼   ► Are they going to keep the existing sizes?

00:58:43 ◼   ► I mean, I feel like bigger one would be a new form factor for sure.

00:58:47 ◼   ► Jason.

00:58:48 ◼   ► Well, I feel like the iPad air being the same size as the iPad pro, the smaller iPad pro

00:58:55 ◼   ► suggests to me that that smaller iPad pro isn't going to exist anymore in that form.

00:58:59 ◼   ► So the question is, do they make it a little bit bigger?

00:59:02 ◼   ► Do they bump both of the iPad pros up in size a little bit or do they take the 12.9 and

00:59:09 ◼   ► then put a bigger iPad pro on top of it?

00:59:12 ◼   ► I hadn't thought of this.

00:59:13 ◼   ► I understand what you're saying, but I don't know if I feel the same.

00:59:18 ◼   ► Yeah.

00:59:19 ◼   ► I mean, they could keep them there.

00:59:21 ◼   ► It's just, it's just kind of funny.

00:59:23 ◼   ► They're exactly the same size and they use the same accessories.

00:59:25 ◼   ► But is that a, is that a, yeah, I guess what I'm saying is, is that a prelude to them doing

00:59:31 ◼   ► something else?

00:59:32 ◼   ► It could just be that now they're going to be two iPads that are the same size that are

00:59:36 ◼   ► very similar, but have some different characteristics and different prices and they use the same

00:59:40 ◼   ► accessories.

00:59:41 ◼   ► They could do that, or it could be a little foreshadowing that the existing iPad pro in

00:59:46 ◼   ► that slot's not going to stay there.

00:59:47 ◼   ► And that 11 inch iPad pro is going to become, I don't know what a 12 inch iPad pro and the

00:59:53 ◼   ► 12.9 is going to become a 14 inch iPad pro.

00:59:56 ◼   ► I don't, I don't know.

00:59:57 ◼   ► I really like the 12.9 size.

01:00:01 ◼   ► If there was a slightly smaller one, I'd be interested, right?

01:00:07 ◼   ► Like if it could still feel like a large screen iPad, but it wasn't quite as big, I'd be interested

01:00:12 ◼   ► in that.

01:00:13 ◼   ► But then again, I might, you know, I don't think I want a larger iPad pro I think, but

01:00:17 ◼   ► I think some people do.

01:00:18 ◼   ► I think artists especially would love having that huge screen.

01:00:21 ◼   ► So I think one of the things we need to watch is will Apple do a bigger iPad pro and that

01:00:29 ◼   ► would go with.

01:00:30 ◼   ► I mean, I know we're talking about accessories, but that would require the sizes dictate what

01:00:34 ◼   ► happens in terms of the keyboard folio and the magic keyboard, right?

01:00:38 ◼   ► Because if they change the dimensions, they're going to have to do new versions of those

01:00:42 ◼   ► accessories.

01:00:43 ◼   ► If they keep them all the same, then they can continue to kind of use the ones that

01:00:49 ◼   ► they've already built.

01:00:50 ◼   ► And maybe given that that product hasn't even been out a year yet, maybe that's probably

01:00:54 ◼   ► the most likely scenario.

01:00:55 ◼   ► Again, I don't know, right?

01:00:57 ◼   ► Like they've gotten good at making the current small size of the magic keyboard or whatever.

01:01:04 ◼   ► And they kept the old ones around for the iPads that inherited those eventually anyway.

01:01:10 ◼   ► So I don't think the fact that the iPad Air fits in the smaller iPads magic keyboard should

01:01:16 ◼   ► say specifically that the bigger, the smaller iPad isn't going to see any design changes.

01:01:22 ◼   ► You know what I'm saying?

01:01:23 ◼   ► The smart keyboard folio for the previous smaller iPad Pro, which also fit the other

01:01:30 ◼   ► iPads, still stuck around after the iPad Pro changed sizes.

01:01:37 ◼   ► Just because they did create it so it would fit doesn't, I mean, it could actually be

01:01:42 ◼   ► one of the reasons they do that.

01:01:43 ◼   ► So they can transition the other one away so then they can move around.

01:01:47 ◼   ► So we've talked to yourself in a circle here about it.

01:01:51 ◼   ► My guess though is where does the iPad Pro have to go?

01:01:53 ◼   ► And one place it has to go is up.

01:01:56 ◼   ► Not that they will do that, but you can totally see the presentation, right?

01:02:00 ◼   ► Which is, "Oh, your movies look so great and artists have a fuller canvas in which to, and

01:02:06 ◼   ► people who are using it to code can have like, split screen works great on it."

01:02:11 ◼   ► I can see the presentation for the gigantic 15 inch iPad Pro Max, right?

01:02:19 ◼   ► I can see that presentation.

01:02:20 ◼   ► I don't know if they think there's a product there or not, but that would be a place for

01:02:23 ◼   ► them to go.

01:02:24 ◼   ► That would be a thing for them to try if they wanted to.

01:02:28 ◼   ► Yeah, I would like them to get bigger at the top end.

01:02:33 ◼   ► I don't want them to get much bigger on the lower sized iPad Pro.

01:02:39 ◼   ► And I know the iPad Air exists, right?

01:02:41 ◼   ► And I know the iPad Air and the current iPad Pro are very similar, but the expectation

01:02:47 ◼   ► is that the iPad Pro line will continue to go where that's always gone.

01:02:51 ◼   ► And I like having the best iPad in that smaller size.

01:02:57 ◼   ► I like that personally for me.

01:02:59 ◼   ► I get it.

01:03:01 ◼   ► I get it.

01:03:02 ◼   ► I will remind you that the lower sized iPad Pro has been 9.7, 10.5, and 11.

01:03:09 ◼   ► Which is a trend.

01:03:11 ◼   ► I know.

01:03:12 ◼   ► It makes me wonder if they might push it to 11.5 or 12 or something like that.

01:03:16 ◼   ► I feel like 11 is about as much as I would want it to go.

01:03:24 ◼   ► I get that.

01:03:25 ◼   ► Just because even though the screen got bigger, that iPad has never really gotten that much

01:03:29 ◼   ► bigger than the models that it's replaced.

01:03:32 ◼   ► No, I get it.

01:03:33 ◼   ► If they ended up keeping the bezels the same size and making the screen bigger, it's now

01:03:38 ◼   ► going in a place that I don't think I want that product to go for me.

01:03:44 ◼   ► I hear you.

01:03:45 ◼   ► I definitely sense from you.

01:03:48 ◼   ► It's like, don't make me use the iPad Air.

01:03:51 ◼   ► Don't make me use the iPad Air.

01:03:52 ◼   ► I want my iPad Pro at that size.

01:03:54 ◼   ► But I want it at that size.

01:03:58 ◼   ► I think that there's a very good chance that it will just stay where it is and get these

01:04:01 ◼   ► new pieces of technology.

01:04:03 ◼   ► I do wonder.

01:04:05 ◼   ► Also I feel like the 12.9 is about as big as an iPad should be.

01:04:08 ◼   ► But again, I'm not an artist and I can definitely see.

01:04:11 ◼   ► I feel like we talked about an iPad's iMac, whether it's a Surface Studio-like thing or

01:04:18 ◼   ► some new iOS factor that is formed.

01:04:24 ◼   ► And I think a big iPad is the way to do it.

01:04:28 ◼   ► I think that's the way to do it.

01:04:29 ◼   ► Not an iMac shape that's actually an iPad or something like that on an easel.

01:04:35 ◼   ► I think probably the most likely thing Apple will do is say, "We made a big iPad.

01:04:39 ◼   ► You said you wanted a big iPad.

01:04:41 ◼   ► We made you a big iPad.

01:04:42 ◼   ► This is the artist's iPad.

01:04:44 ◼   ► It's huge.

01:04:45 ◼   ► Just look at that screen.

01:04:47 ◼   ► Isn't it amazing?"

01:04:48 ◼   ► And it costs a fortune and here it is.

01:04:50 ◼   ► And we'll see if they actually do that or not.

01:04:53 ◼   ► Because I'm not sure how big that market is.

01:04:55 ◼   ► But it is a place that iOS could go that it isn't at present.

01:05:01 ◼   ► And that's why it's kind of interesting.

01:05:03 ◼   ► From a functionality perspective, are there other things that you would look for?

01:05:08 ◼   ► Well, actually, before I say that, actually, one thing on accessories.

01:05:11 ◼   ► I would like the Magic Keyboard to get greater viewing angles.

01:05:14 ◼   ► Yeah, wouldn't that be nice to have a Magic Keyboard version 2?

01:05:18 ◼   ► It feels like maybe that's another year out.

01:05:20 ◼   ► But if they do new sizes, it would be nice to see them have sort of a different take

01:05:26 ◼   ► on that.

01:05:27 ◼   ► What we learned with the first two is that the size actually really dictates what you

01:05:30 ◼   ► can do with the Magic Keyboard in terms of viewing angles and things like that, right?

01:05:34 ◼   ► Because the smaller one has worse viewing angles than the larger one.

01:05:38 ◼   ► So what would an even larger one be like?

01:05:44 ◼   ► But I hear you.

01:05:45 ◼   ► Even if the keyboard size is the same.

01:05:47 ◼   ► That accessory is not even nine months old.

01:05:49 ◼   ► Not even nine months old.

01:05:51 ◼   ► So I don't think it's going to get redesigned in 2021, but you never know.

01:05:55 ◼   ► But yeah, so I was saying about functionality.

01:05:57 ◼   ► So I'm thinking of things that it could get or hardware changes that we could see.

01:06:03 ◼   ► We have one, and depending on whether you use the Magic Keyboard or not, one and a half

01:06:07 ◼   ► USB ports available to the iPad Pro.

01:06:12 ◼   ► Would you want to see more there?

01:06:14 ◼   ► Could you imagine they may add two ports if it is similar to the M1?

01:06:19 ◼   ► I do imagine that.

01:06:22 ◼   ► I don't know whether they would do that or not.

01:06:23 ◼   ► Although quite honestly, they could put two ports at the bottom of the iPad instead of

01:06:28 ◼   ► one.

01:06:29 ◼   ► It would be fine.

01:06:30 ◼   ► But I think people even use the one port that's there, most people, for anything but charging.

01:06:34 ◼   ► So maybe it doesn't matter.

01:06:36 ◼   ► But there are some people who are serious iPad Pro type people who might love the fact

01:06:41 ◼   ► that they can, for example, I do this, do a podcast on an iPad and also make sure the

01:06:47 ◼   ► iPad has enough battery life to continue with the podcast, right?

01:06:51 ◼   ► And you could do that through like a hub or something like that.

01:06:53 ◼   ► But yeah, I don't need personally Apple to add another port until they give me more I

01:06:58 ◼   ► could do with it, which would be actually really being able to let me record a podcast

01:07:02 ◼   ► the way that I want to.

01:07:04 ◼   ► And that's a software problem and not a hardware problem.

01:07:07 ◼   ► I agree.

01:07:08 ◼   ► So a second port, I mean, it's an iPad Pro.

01:07:10 ◼   ► It would allow them to be like, look how pro the iPad Pro is.

01:07:13 ◼   ► It has two of these ports.

01:07:14 ◼   ► They could say, oh, and they're Thunderbolt USB 4.

01:07:17 ◼   ► They're the same ports that are in our Macs.

01:07:19 ◼   ► Isn't that great?

01:07:21 ◼   ► And then again, it's going to come down to the software, how usable they are, but it

01:07:25 ◼   ► would allow them to differentiate a little bit, which is why I think there's a chance

01:07:27 ◼   ► that they they'll do it anyway.

01:07:31 ◼   ► Touch ID.

01:07:32 ◼   ► I mean, it's there, but the real question is, do they want to do touch ID and face ID

01:07:38 ◼   ► together on a product?

01:07:40 ◼   ► And I think the iPad Pro is less likely because you don't like face ID is fine.

01:07:45 ◼   ► There are very few people who are unlocking their iPads with a mask on.

01:07:49 ◼   ► Yeah, I think the iPhone will be the next product, if any, to get touch ID on it, or

01:07:55 ◼   ► at least the only one that I can imagine in the near future to get touch ID as well as

01:08:00 ◼   ► face ID.

01:08:01 ◼   ► And I agree, but I don't think the need is is quite as strong.

01:08:05 ◼   ► I'm not saying it's not there, but I don't think it's quite as strong, especially on

01:08:10 ◼   ► the iPad Pro where I think Apple are expecting and/or wanting the users to have a keyboard

01:08:20 ◼   ► attachment.

01:08:21 ◼   ► And when you do have a keyboard attached to it, it just is much nicer to have face ID

01:08:25 ◼   ► there because you don't have to reach to the iPad, you just keep your hands on the keyboard

01:08:28 ◼   ► and unlock, which is really nice.

01:08:30 ◼   ► What about MagSafe?

01:08:32 ◼   ► We spoke about this a little bit last time, I think.

01:08:35 ◼   ► Yeah, I mean, the short version, I had somebody tweeted about like, what about MagSafe?

01:08:39 ◼   ► And we did talk about last time, but like a magnetic port on the back of an iPad that

01:08:43 ◼   ► lets you charge is literally the smart connector.

01:08:46 ◼   ► And so the iPad sort of has that.

01:08:48 ◼   ► And again, you wouldn't choose to charge that way because it's not as fast, but you might

01:08:52 ◼   ► if you're plugged in via that port on the Magic Keyboard, and it's kind of nice to have

01:08:59 ◼   ► that.

01:09:00 ◼   ► So I don't see, I feel like Apple has built their MagSafe for the iPad and its smart connector.

01:09:06 ◼   ► That's what it does.

01:09:07 ◼   ► And it's not as fast to charge necessarily, but that's sort of their solution for the

01:09:11 ◼   ► iPad.

01:09:12 ◼   ► And I think it makes the most sense to do it that way.

01:09:14 ◼   ► We'll talk about the cameras as well.

01:09:17 ◼   ► Actually, I only have one camera, the front facing camera.

01:09:20 ◼   ► Obviously, everyone wants them to get better.

01:09:23 ◼   ► All front facing cameras should get better.

01:09:24 ◼   ► It's one of the things we've really learned from 2020.

01:09:27 ◼   ► But I really would love to see Apple embrace the form factor of the iPad Pro and put it

01:09:33 ◼   ► on the horizontal edge, not like, well, to put it centered when you're horizontal.

01:09:41 ◼   ► That's where people are using the cameras of their iPad Pros, you know, on the long

01:09:45 ◼   ► side, not the short side.

01:09:46 ◼   ► It's a form factor.

01:09:47 ◼   ► Is it a form factor?

01:09:48 ◼   ► Yeah, it's a factor of the form that I would love to see changed.

01:09:51 ◼   ► What a strange factor that would be.

01:09:52 ◼   ► Did you factor that out?

01:09:54 ◼   ► Is there a fraction in the factor?

01:09:56 ◼   ► Form factor, fraction.

01:09:57 ◼   ► I get what you're saying, which is a lot of people use, this is something that we've beaten

01:10:03 ◼   ► up a lot here, which is that we view the iPad as primarily a horizontal product and Apple

01:10:09 ◼   ► seems to think it's primarily a vertical product, except when it goes in their keyboard case,

01:10:13 ◼   ► in which case then it's horizontal.

01:10:15 ◼   ► And I agree with you.

01:10:16 ◼   ► I cannot tell you how often I have, so like I call my mom on Sundays and I do a FaceTime

01:10:22 ◼   ► call and I'm usually on my iPad.

01:10:24 ◼   ► And I end up in that situation, which is like, well, which way is the camera?

01:10:27 ◼   ► Like I would like the camera to be in the middle because I'm holding it horizontally

01:10:32 ◼   ► and that's a better place for it.

01:10:34 ◼   ► I don't know if they'll ever do this, but I hear you that placing it on that side would

01:10:41 ◼   ► be great or it's the iPad Pro, maybe two, maybe two.

01:10:46 ◼   ► How about that?

01:10:47 ◼   ► A second camera.

01:10:48 ◼   ► And I'll also say selfie cameras should be better.

01:10:51 ◼   ► It should be better.

01:10:52 ◼   ► Always make it better.

01:10:53 ◼   ► Always.

01:10:54 ◼   ► You put this last one in there.

01:10:57 ◼   ► I can't even address it.

01:10:59 ◼   ► You're just going to have to talk about it yourself.

01:11:01 ◼   ► That's ridiculous and not going to happen, but I want to mention it because our friend,

01:11:05 ◼   ► friend of the show, Steve Trout and Smith tweeted last night.

01:11:11 ◼   ► This is what he said.

01:11:12 ◼   ► With Mac OS on ARM, a read only system volume, para virtualized graphics acceleration and

01:11:17 ◼   ► hypervisor framework on iOS, it definitely feels like a non-zero chance that Mac OS as

01:11:22 ◼   ► an app could be offered on future iPads.

01:11:26 ◼   ► Whether that makes sense strategically is another thing.

01:11:29 ◼   ► Well, it is another thing and it probably doesn't and I don't think it's going to happen,

01:11:32 ◼   ► but I just thought I'd throw it in the hat.

01:11:34 ◼   ► Like yeah, sure.

01:11:35 ◼   ► Put it in the magic keyboard, run Mac OS app and now your iPad is also a Mac.

01:11:40 ◼   ► Right.

01:11:41 ◼   ► It's not going to happen.

01:11:42 ◼   ► So looking at new form factors for the Apple Silicon laptops, so as well as new designs,

01:11:46 ◼   ► which has been talking about for quite a while, they would also feature many LEDs.

01:11:50 ◼   ► There seems to be something that's going to come to many products in Apple's lineup.

01:11:54 ◼   ► We're looking for second half of 2021 and most likely based on previous reports, this

01:12:00 ◼   ► would be the MacBook Pro, the 16 inch getting revision as well as the long awaited 14 inch

01:12:08 ◼   ► MacBook Pro to join it.

01:12:12 ◼   ► New designs factoring in new forms here.

01:12:17 ◼   ► That's good.

01:12:18 ◼   ► That's good.

01:12:19 ◼   ► It's interesting.

01:12:20 ◼   ► I expected them to maybe do a whole wave of unchanged models in the laptops, but maybe

01:12:28 ◼   ► not.

01:12:29 ◼   ► Maybe this is their, their way.

01:12:31 ◼   ► They, you know, they start with the lower end models and don't change those.

01:12:35 ◼   ► And then back in the background they've got bubbling their changes to the higher end MacBook

01:12:40 ◼   ► Pro model.

01:12:41 ◼   ► So it would be the 13 inch four port would become a 14 inch.

01:12:44 ◼   ► That makes sense.

01:12:45 ◼   ► And then a new 16 inch.

01:12:47 ◼   ► Maybe these have like better cameras and other stuff like that too, that we've been waiting

01:12:52 ◼   ► for that did not happen with this last round.

01:12:55 ◼   ► New display would indicate that too.

01:12:57 ◼   ► Dare I throw in there that if you're going to do in a new display and new cameras that

01:13:01 ◼   ► maybe they can actually do face ID on these.

01:13:04 ◼   ► Wouldn't that be nice?

01:13:06 ◼   ► Yeah, I would love that.

01:13:08 ◼   ► So that's great.

01:13:09 ◼   ► It's funny.

01:13:11 ◼   ► Quo saying second half of 2021.

01:13:13 ◼   ► If that's the case, there are no, like they have the Intel MacBook Pros just kind of hanging

01:13:20 ◼   ► out there being slower than the M1 ones for a year.

01:13:27 ◼   ► That's a little surprising.

01:13:28 ◼   ► And I wonder if there's a sort of a almost like a slipstream slipstream update that could

01:13:36 ◼   ► come the first half of the year.

01:13:38 ◼   ► That is the existing models going to the Apple Silicon.

01:13:42 ◼   ► But again, what if Apple is staging this and they don't have the higher end Apple Silicon

01:13:50 ◼   ► chip for Macs this year and that that cycle really is going to wait until next fall when

01:13:54 ◼   ► there'll be an M2 and these will get the M2.

01:13:58 ◼   ► That makes sense, right?

01:13:59 ◼   ► Like Apple does not necessarily have the ability to roll out five different chip variations

01:14:06 ◼   ► in six months.

01:14:07 ◼   ► So it may be that the M1 is all we get for a little while.

01:14:12 ◼   ► And again, that's not too disappointing because we know how fast the M1 is, but it could be

01:14:16 ◼   ► that the M1 is the chip for this cycle.

01:14:19 ◼   ► And then next cycle we'll get an M2 that maybe will be broken into a couple of different

01:14:24 ◼   ► versions.

01:14:25 ◼   ► So it could happen, but it's going to be a weird, if that's the case, it's going to be

01:14:27 ◼   ► a weird year where Apple's laptop configuration stays like it is now, where you've got the

01:14:32 ◼   ► lower end systems that are generally faster than the higher end systems, which are just

01:14:35 ◼   ► sort of sitting there for people who want to buy an Intel laptop.

01:14:40 ◼   ► Also it's a year knowing Apple Silicon is in the market where you're trying to sell

01:14:44 ◼   ► people on an Intel laptop.

01:14:46 ◼   ► I can't imagine that they're going to sell well.

01:14:48 ◼   ► No, I mean, and of course this, none of these reports are talking about iMacs, which, you

01:14:54 ◼   ► know, so it might not be we get no Apple Silicon Macs in that period of time.

01:14:59 ◼   ► The iMac may still pop up, but yes, you're right about the laptops.

01:15:01 ◼   ► I fully expect the iMac, and that could be even a redesigned iMac, but it could also

01:15:04 ◼   ► just be an iMac with an M1, especially if it's replacing the low end iMac and then they

01:15:11 ◼   ► keep the high end iMac for now, the 5k iMac as Intel, but redesign the other one, it could

01:15:18 ◼   ► use the same M1 processor, absolutely could.

01:15:23 ◼   ► This episode is brought to you by Hover, one of the longest running sponsors here on the

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01:17:28 ◼   ► First one comes from Hunter with Apple making their own chips.

01:17:32 ◼   ► Do you think we could see a cheaper laptop from them in a few years?

01:17:36 ◼   ► Maybe a MacBook SE priced around $700 or $600?

01:17:40 ◼   ► I'll refer you to the comments in an interview that was Apple execs being interviewed about the M1 Max and somebody asked them this question and they said, you know, the obvious honestly, if you've been paying attention to Apple, which is cheap isn't their goal and their goal is to make they make choices to make them better.

01:17:58 ◼   ► I really, you know, I think that that's an accurate summation of Apple's decisions.

01:18:03 ◼   ► Apple's goal is not to be the low price leader and so they will build laptops with the functionality that they feel makes it a good laptop and they don't.

01:18:12 ◼   ► They don't build their low end is a lot higher than most companies.

01:18:16 ◼   ► Low ends.

01:18:16 ◼   ► They're not going to scrape the bottom.

01:18:18 ◼   ► So I think that's I think it's possible that they might make a cheaper than nine 99 laptop, especially I think in this Tim Cook era and you look at how fast the M1 MacBook Air is.

01:18:31 ◼   ► Would it be unsurprising if the M1 MacBook Air that we have today kind of like stuck around and maybe went down to eight 99 or even seven 99?

01:18:41 ◼   ► I think that's possible.

01:18:43 ◼   ► A brand new designed to be low cost five 99 Mac laptop.

01:18:47 ◼   ► I don't think it's going to happen.

01:18:50 ◼   ► It would be nice.

01:18:51 ◼   ► It would be nice.

01:18:52 ◼   ► Sure.

01:18:54 ◼   ► I could imagine more what you said about rather than you like keeping something around.

01:19:00 ◼   ► That I think is a far more likely Tim Cook's Apple scenario, right?

01:19:04 ◼   ► Is that eventually there's an M2 MacBook Air at nine 99 and the M1 MacBook Air stays in the price list and moves down to seven 99 and it's still again really fast even if the M2 is faster.

01:19:17 ◼   ► It's pretty good, you know, thinking about that like the M1 MacBook Air they could keep that around for a long time and it still be competitive with comparable products in its class not necessarily against other MacBooks, but they could keep that could stick around for a long time and be a better product for people than a lot of what they might otherwise buy and they could keep pushing that price down.

01:19:43 ◼   ► That's how you could get it to like five 99 or six 99 in education at least because they not 100 off.

01:19:49 ◼   ► I think that's it.

01:19:50 ◼   ► I think it won't go down to five 99 or six 99.

01:19:53 ◼   ► I think it's I think it's more likely a you know, yeah eight 99 or even seven 99.

01:19:57 ◼   ► But if you think about it in terms of iPhone marketing and the fact that they're so far ahead with the M1 that they have space to give and still be superior to low-end laptops that they're competing with that may be their long-term like how do we compete with Chromebooks and stuff with a Mac answer is we're going to have that Mac low-end MacBook Air that is using the M1 and it's going to stick around and in 2022.

01:20:22 ◼   ► It's going to be 799 or 699 even though there will also be a faster MacBook Air higher up in the price list.

01:20:29 ◼   ► It would not be too far off from their typical behavior at least on the iPhone side.

01:20:35 ◼   ► So it's quite possible because I've always found that to be a shame of them getting rid of the 11 inch MacBook Air is they lost that lower price point.

01:20:44 ◼   ► Because the Mac used to be what's 799.

01:20:48 ◼   ► The 11 inch. I don't know how low it got 899 799.

01:20:53 ◼   ► I don't know. Nevertheless, they still had a cheaper option when the 11 inch was around and I it's one of the things that's been a shame that they're moving it other than the fact that the 11 inch MacBook Air is a wonderful computer and it was such a fun little thing.

01:21:06 ◼   ► I love that. I love mine.

01:21:08 ◼   ► But yeah, it made them lose a little bit on where they could take the price to.

01:21:12 ◼   ► Brian says my iPhone 12 Pro is on the way. Should I set it up as new or restore from a backup?

01:21:19 ◼   ► Restore from a backup. Restore from a backup is great. Just do that. Don't don't put yourself through it.

01:21:24 ◼   ► iOS backups are great.

01:21:26 ◼   ► I'm more inclined to set up Macs as new and then transfer the data.

01:21:31 ◼   ► Like if I want to do that like transfer my files via migration assistant or something.

01:21:37 ◼   ► But for iPhones and iPads, just do the just do the restore.

01:21:43 ◼   ► I don't unless it's just a thing you like to do.

01:21:48 ◼   ► I can't think of a reason as to why you would choose to set up an iOS device as new.

01:21:55 ◼   ► Greg asks, I'm considering switching my local photos library to iCloud photos.

01:22:00 ◼   ► I've exported the originals to a different folder.

01:22:03 ◼   ► Is there anything else I should consider before turning on iCloud photos?

01:22:09 ◼   ► Maybe we can also offer this to Casey List too.

01:22:12 ◼   ► Yeah. Well, Greg's question is interesting because it's on a Mac, right?

01:22:20 ◼   ► I assume. Yes, I'm assuming yes.

01:22:24 ◼   ► I don't even know why you need to export the originals. When you turn.

01:22:26 ◼   ► I expect he's saying that is I have a backup is I think is what he's saying there.

01:22:31 ◼   ► Yeah, I get it. But so if you turn on iCloud photos and you keep download originals to this Mac selected as an option,

01:22:38 ◼   ► nothing happens to your photos. They don't go anywhere.

01:22:42 ◼   ► Nothing happens. It's it's fine. If you choose optimize Mac storage,

01:22:46 ◼   ► it will delete them and keep them in the cloud.

01:22:49 ◼   ► So I don't think there's anything worth worrying about here is my answer about considering

01:22:56 ◼   ► before you turn on iCloud photos other than where your photos are going to be stored.

01:22:59 ◼   ► Because if you have enough storage to keep them to keep a canonical library locally

01:23:04 ◼   ► and not just in the cloud, I recommend you do that. My Mac Mini with the giant hard drive outboard has this feature turned on the keep all photos on my Mac

01:23:14 ◼   ► so that I've got a local copy of all my photos if Apple's cloud exploded.

01:23:21 ◼   ► But other than that, you just turn it on and it just kind of works.

01:23:26 ◼   ► Like that's the nice thing about the photos app is it just it's built to sync with iCloud and it just does it.

01:23:34 ◼   ► And if you've got the if you keep them on it won't even delete them off your hard drive.

01:23:37 ◼   ► It just leaves them there where they already are.

01:23:41 ◼   ► All right, next comes from Benjamin. Are you looking forward to Fitness Plus?

01:23:45 ◼   ► Do you think it will come in 14.3? Did see some stories over the weekend that the trainers are seemingly to be more active on their social media.

01:23:56 ◼   ► Accounts to indicate that something is coming soon.

01:24:01 ◼   ► I expect this is going to be a part of 14.3.

01:24:05 ◼   ► There isn't really a lot of the year left for them to launch this.

01:24:10 ◼   ► Yeah, we're getting close. So I think it has to be and I am looking forward to it.

01:24:14 ◼   ► I am an Apple one subscriber. So I get as of now,

01:24:19 ◼   ► I guess if you signed up on day one, we are actually Apple one subscribers now.

01:24:23 ◼   ► I think that was a month ago like as of today or yesterday.

01:24:28 ◼   ► So like the Apple one thing is kicked in now if you signed up, but yes,

01:24:33 ◼   ► I'm also I tell you the thing I'm most excited about for this Jason is their whole I don't remember exactly what they call it,

01:24:39 ◼   ► but they're like beginners thing. I'm really intrigued to see what that looks like.

01:24:43 ◼   ► It's kind of like the course of hey,

01:24:45 ◼   ► if you've not been very active with your exercise for a while give this a go.

01:24:50 ◼   ► I'm intrigued to see what that that whole thing looks like to be honest.

01:24:55 ◼   ► Yeah. Yeah, I am too and I'm you as somebody who my fitness right now is basically running

01:25:02 ◼   ► and I'm doing some physical therapy exercises that involve me like lifting a can of beans,

01:25:08 ◼   ► which is hilarious because I don't have any I don't have any weights.

01:25:10 ◼   ► So I lifted can of beans. It's great. It's enough.

01:25:13 ◼   ► I'm that week that I can of beans will defeat me every time.

01:25:18 ◼   ► I'm looking forward to this because it will give me some other fitness things to do

01:25:21 ◼   ► and yeah, that should be fun and I'm already paying for it.

01:25:24 ◼   ► So great bring it on will report back both of us and Richard asks,

01:25:30 ◼   ► do you think Apple had made the decision to transition to arm before that April 2017 Mac roundtable event?

01:25:38 ◼   ► Or basically do you think that this was part of that whole thing?

01:25:42 ◼   ► I gotten them back and forth with John Gruber about this on Twitter,

01:25:45 ◼   ► which is why I put this in the notes today because I want to just I want to talk about it with you.

01:25:49 ◼   ► And I don't I honestly don't know and he was there

01:25:52 ◼   ► but I've also read a transcript of what they said when he was there.

01:25:57 ◼   ► I think let me put it this way.

01:26:01 ◼   ► I think Apple had made the decision to transition to arm when they called that meeting.

01:26:06 ◼   ► Because I think there was a pivot point where Apple decided what they were going to do with the Mac

01:26:13 ◼   ► that was going to be to involve the Mac evolve the Mac interface more get iOS stuff to run on the Mac move to arm all of those things like really lean into the chip transition build a new Mac Pro.

01:26:28 ◼   ► I think all of those things I expected to happen.

01:26:32 ◼   ► That's why they called the meeting.

01:26:34 ◼   ► I feel like that that was probably the moment where they decided to go in this new direction with the Mac.

01:26:41 ◼   ► I don't think the sort of drifting that the Mac was doing before that.

01:26:48 ◼   ► I don't believe it was because they had already decided to go to Apple Silicon and we're just waiting and being frustrated by Intel.

01:26:54 ◼   ► I think you know, and this is I have no information share some information if you Apple insiders,

01:27:00 ◼   ► if you know the truth,

01:27:01 ◼   ► but my guess is that there was a real debate inside about whether it was worth putting the effort in to build chips for the Mac

01:27:11 ◼   ► and migrate the Mac and do everything that a chip transition would require versus the easy out which is just keep using Intel will never be slower than Intel.

01:27:22 ◼   ► PC's will be able it'll be familiar Mac users will continue to use it and it will just kind of go on being the Mac for as long as people want to buy Max.

01:27:34 ◼   ► And I think that that was their attitude for a while that Intel was just going to be good enough

01:27:40 ◼   ► and that they didn't want to spend the energy on a trip to chip transition.

01:27:43 ◼   ► And then at some point and I would love to know what that point was.

01:27:48 ◼   ► They said, you know what? That's not good enough.

01:27:51 ◼   ► We could do a better job here. Let's commit to the chip transition.

01:27:56 ◼   ► And I think all of these other things were kind of related to that commitment.

01:27:59 ◼   ► So if I had to guess I would say yes Richard.

01:28:02 ◼   ► I do think they made the decision to transition to arm before the April 27 Mac roundtable event.

01:28:08 ◼   ► How much before is the question six months a year a week?

01:28:12 ◼   ► I don't know but I think by that point they knew because that was why they made the recommitment to the Mac.

01:28:19 ◼   ► That's what I think. Yeah. I don't believe that.

01:28:24 ◼   ► The same company that had the direction for where the Mac was at that point in 2016 2017 is the same company who would have said.

01:28:37 ◼   ► We're going to revolutionize this product line.

01:28:40 ◼   ► I don't think that was the same company.

01:28:43 ◼   ► They who was producing the touch bar the butterfly keyboard and the trash can Mac Pro and leaving stuff like and deciding that it was the same company who decided they weren't going to have a Mac Pro anymore.

01:28:59 ◼   ► I don't think that's the same company that was like we're going to we're going to re-architect all of this and make current silicon.

01:29:04 ◼   ► I just don't think it was the same company. I'm not saying that there weren't people inside of Apple that wanted to do it or were tooling around with it.

01:29:12 ◼   ► But I think at the top their decision was what you were saying of like,

01:29:16 ◼   ► we're just going to keep this thing going. It's not a legacy platform,

01:29:20 ◼   ► but we're just going to keep it going until it doesn't stick around anymore,

01:29:23 ◼   ► you know, and then they clearly made somebody was able to convince someone that this wasn't the right route to take and then they changed course,

01:29:32 ◼   ► but I would expect it was basically in between the iMac Pro being created and then deciding that they were going to make the Mac Pro.

01:29:42 ◼   ► They made a bunch of decisions that set them on the course that they were going down.

01:29:46 ◼   ► They were clearly toying around with this stuff before but I think that was the part where they decided to put all these plans in place.

01:29:53 ◼   ► Because it just doesn't seem like it would have been the same company, right?

01:29:56 ◼   ► Yeah, I have no doubt that they have been looking at Macs on Apple processors for a while as a,

01:30:03 ◼   ► you know, due diligence kind of thing and probably having their chip people say,

01:30:07 ◼   ► hey, we could we could do better than Intel. We could do better.

01:30:10 ◼   ► We could do better. We could do better. And finally there came a moment where there was enough of a proof of concept

01:30:16 ◼   ► or there were enough frustrations with Intel that they said,

01:30:18 ◼   ► all right, let's do this. But I do think there was a switch that got flipped.

01:30:21 ◼   ► And again, maybe it's a complex company, a series of things that happened that led to that point where they said,

01:30:30 ◼   ► this is what the future of the Mac is going to be and it's going to require us to do all of this work in order to get there.

01:30:36 ◼   ► But it's worth doing that work rather than letting the Mac just sort of kind of drift along with whatever Intel is doing this year.

01:30:46 ◼   ► If you would like to send in a question for us to answer on the show,

01:30:49 ◼   ► you can just tweet with the hashtag ask upgrade or just use the command question mark,

01:30:53 ◼   ► ask upgrade in the relay FM members discord, which you get access to if you subscribe to upgrade plus go to get upgrade plus.com

01:31:01 ◼   ► where you can sign up for just $5 a month or you can go to our website and get and you can sign up for an annual plan there as well.

01:31:08 ◼   ► This will get you access to weekly episodes of upgrade with additional content and no ads as well.

01:31:14 ◼   ► So you get more upgrade and no ads for just $5 a month

01:31:18 ◼   ► and you also help support us and the work that we do here, which is greatly appreciated.

01:31:23 ◼   ► You can go to get upgrade plus.com. Thank you so much if you've done that and also to our sponsors this week's episode,

01:31:30 ◼   ► Hover, Pingdom and Saintbox. You can find Jason online at sixcolors.com and he is @jsnell, J S N E double L on Twitter.

01:31:38 ◼   ► I am @imike, I M Y K E. Jason also podcasts at the incomparable.

01:31:47 ◼   ► And I'm trying to think of other things to say and also all 20 max of 2020 there.

01:31:52 ◼   ► Listen to that podcast on relay FM. You should check it out and then I write essays about it.

01:31:56 ◼   ► So yeah, do that and I've been twitch streaming a lot recently at Myke.live.

01:32:01 ◼   ► If you want to check that out soothing assembly of keyboards.

01:32:04 ◼   ► Thank you. Yes, that's that is it in a nutshell.

01:32:07 ◼   ► Really if you want to check that out, you should be trying to do one of those every week.

01:32:11 ◼   ► So at least so you can go check that out as well.

01:32:14 ◼   ► We'll be back next time until then say goodbye Jason Snow.

01:32:17 ◼   ► Goodbye Myke Early.

01:32:20 ◼   ► You.

01:32:23 ◼   ► [Music]