Upgrade

00:00:00 ◼   ► [Music]

00:00:08 ◼   ► From Relay FM, this is Upgrade, episode 329, and today's show is brought to you by DoorDash, KiwiCo, and Uni Pizza Ovens.

00:00:17 ◼   ► My name is Myke Hurley and I am joined by the one and only Jason Snow. Hi, Jason Snow.

00:00:22 ◼   ► It's me! Me, the one and only me. Hello, Myke Hurley. It's good to join the one and only Myke Hurley.

00:00:29 ◼   ► Do you know what I have realized? I've realized this because I edit our Upgrade Plus, right?

00:00:34 ◼   ► So I go in and I remove the ads from the episode. So when I do that, I get to hear a lot when I start a new topic with you, right?

00:00:43 ◼   ► And I have noticed that I typically will say like Jason Snow and then introduce the topic.

00:00:50 ◼   ► I don't know why I call you Jason Snow all the time. I don't know. I don't know either. It's just a thing.

00:00:55 ◼   ► You're one of those two-name people to me, you know? Like that's just like a thing. Interesting.

00:01:01 ◼   ► I don't know why I do it. I don't ever think of you as Jason Snow. I'm one of those two-name people.

00:01:08 ◼   ► I think when we have kind of regular conversation, I call you Jason Snow. No, I don't. I call you Jason.

00:01:15 ◼   ► See, I just did it then. So who knows? Who knows? I don't know why you do that, Myke Hurley. Very strange.

00:01:20 ◼   ► Who could tell? Who could tell? We have a hashtag Jason Snow talk question from Sir Hat Who Arts.

00:01:27 ◼   ► I'm one of those hashtag two-name people talk.

00:01:29 ◼   ► Which new color do you want or which color should return to a model of iPhone, iPad, or MacBook?

00:01:38 ◼   ► So if you could choose Jason, which color would you pick to appear on a future product?

00:01:45 ◼   ► I just bought a space gray MacBook Air. And I've said this before. I'll say it again. I want a blue computer.

00:01:54 ◼   ► I want a blue computer. Maybe an orange computer would be good too. I would like colors to return to the computers.

00:02:01 ◼   ► Like the MacBook Air would be fun. Just blue anodized aluminum. Do it. It's done.

00:02:06 ◼   ► I would take that in an iPad as well. And they already make a blue iPhone. So I'm pretty good there. Yeah.

00:02:13 ◼   ► Yeah. But I just and other colors are available, right? You know, if you like green, sure. Apple can make a green.

00:02:18 ◼   ► I'm not going to use a green computer, but you could and that would be fine. I just think, again, I just want colors.

00:02:24 ◼   ► But if I had to choose, blue and orange are going to be the ones I choose because I like those colors the best.

00:02:28 ◼   ► Everybody gets their own colors. I like those.

00:02:31 ◼   ► I'm going to cheat a little bit. I want them to bring back the nanochromatic color line.

00:02:39 ◼   ► Which was a, I think, Apple's favorite selection of colors, which was for one of the iPod Nanos.

00:02:47 ◼   ► And the campaign around it was nanochromatic. That was the wording that they used.

00:02:52 ◼   ► And they had a black and a silver, but they had a purple, blue, green, yellow, orange, pink and red.

00:02:58 ◼   ► And they were fantastic colors. They kind of covered all of the classic iPod Mini ones and added a few more in.

00:03:07 ◼   ► Pumped up the vibrancy in all of them. I really loved those colors.

00:03:13 ◼   ► And it's also, they made a great ad for that, actually, which I will put in the show notes in case you want to see it.

00:03:19 ◼   ► But yeah, that's the colors I would love to see personally. Really go for it.

00:03:26 ◼   ► That's a lot of colors.

00:03:28 ◼   ► It's a lot of colors, but why not, Jason?

00:03:30 ◼   ► I'm fine with it. I don't disagree. I love it.

00:03:33 ◼   ► If you would like to send in a question to help us open a show, just send in a tweet with the hashtag #snowtalk.

00:03:41 ◼   ► Or if you're in the Relay FM members Discord, question mark snowtalk.

00:03:45 ◼   ► We'll get you into our document for future selection.

00:03:49 ◼   ► I have some follow up for you, Jason Snell.

00:03:52 ◼   ► Oh god, I'm so in my head about that now. I don't know why I said it. I knew I did it.

00:03:57 ◼   ► If I would have just kept it to myself, I wouldn't be thinking about it so much.

00:04:00 ◼   ► But here we are.

00:04:01 ◼   ► Applications are open for the App Store Small Business Program, which is something we spoke about last week.

00:04:07 ◼   ► And Apple have basically opened the program up now so people can get their applications in time.

00:04:13 ◼   ► So all of their revenue will be counted at the 15% cut from January 1st.

00:04:18 ◼   ► They published an FAQ on the website.

00:04:22 ◼   ► What I like is most of the frequently asked questions that I have seen are not at all dealt with

00:04:30 ◼   ► in the frequently asked questions section, which is funny to me.

00:04:34 ◼   ► One of the main ones being something we spoke about a bunch, which is like,

00:04:39 ◼   ► what would you do or what are you going to do if you get close to that million dollar line

00:04:43 ◼   ► and will you pull your app and all that kind of stuff.

00:04:46 ◼   ► I think people were hoping Apple would provide a little bit more clarity to try and tidy that up.

00:04:51 ◼   ► But they haven't and I don't think they will.

00:04:54 ◼   ► I think that this is a thing that just needs to be put back on the developer.

00:04:58 ◼   ► You plan your business that way.

00:05:00 ◼   ► And I think that's kind of the way that Apple is treating it.

00:05:03 ◼   ► - Yeah, I think so.

00:05:05 ◼   ► - Right, like you know it's a thing, right?

00:05:07 ◼   ► So you kind of just have to deal with it.

00:05:10 ◼   ► I don't know.

00:05:11 ◼   ► - If you are one of those developers, and they're probably not a lot,

00:05:14 ◼   ► who are right at the one million line,

00:05:17 ◼   ► yeah, you're going to have to figure out a strategy there.

00:05:19 ◼   ► Do you, I don't know, sell one of your apps?

00:05:22 ◼   ► Do you buy some apps and just go for it?

00:05:24 ◼   ► - I don't know what happens there, but it's an interesting problem to have

00:05:30 ◼   ► and I feel for those companies that are in that little cutoff area.

00:05:34 ◼   ► - But I would also say making close to a million dollars a year is a great problem to have.

00:05:40 ◼   ► - Yeah, I mean it depends on the business, right?

00:05:41 ◼   ► If that's a couple of people, it's great.

00:05:43 ◼   ► If it's 10 people, it's not great.

00:05:47 ◼   ► - Yep, but if it's 10 people and you're making a million dollars a year,

00:05:50 ◼   ► you have a lot more problems than Apple's 15% cut.

00:05:53 ◼   ► - True, true story.

00:05:54 ◼   ► We have one more rumor, kind of a clarification really for Ming-Chi Kuo.

00:05:58 ◼   ► So Kuo issued another kind of note in the last few days,

00:06:04 ◼   ► kind of revising some of the predictions that we spoke about last time.

00:06:08 ◼   ► So the two new MacBook Pro models that Ming-Chi Kuo has been talking about launching in 2021

00:06:16 ◼   ► will now both feature mini LED displays, Kuo is saying, which is interesting.

00:06:22 ◼   ► We don't have any refinements on timelines,

00:06:26 ◼   ► but it seems like it could potentially,

00:06:28 ◼   ► these products might come sooner rather than later

00:06:30 ◼   ► as Kuo has increased his forecast for how many of these products will get sold in 2021.

00:06:38 ◼   ► So there's a couple of reasons you do that.

00:06:39 ◼   ► One, if they're going to be really popular, which could be it,

00:06:41 ◼   ► or two, if you're selling them sooner in the year old and later in the year.

00:06:45 ◼   ► But these products getting mini LED is cool.

00:06:48 ◼   ► It seemed possible, but this is now kind of drawing a line there.

00:06:51 ◼   ► But there was one other note, which was of great interest,

00:06:55 ◼   ► saying that there would be a more affordable MacBook Air

00:06:58 ◼   ► with a mini LED display on sale this year as well.

00:07:01 ◼   ► - What does that mean?

00:07:04 ◼   ► More affordable.

00:07:04 ◼   ► It's already Apple's most affordable laptop, right?

00:07:08 ◼   ► At which lowest price is what we mean by more affordable.

00:07:11 ◼   ► I wonder what he means here.

00:07:13 ◼   ► But yeah, does that mean the MacBook Air is going to be $899 or $799 or something?

00:07:17 ◼   ► That would be great in terms of reaching a broader audience

00:07:21 ◼   ► and selling MacBook Airs.

00:07:23 ◼   ► Interesting contrast with also adding a mini LED screen at that time,

00:07:26 ◼   ► because this is mini LED being not OLED,

00:07:30 ◼   ► but more capable of doing kind of OLED-like quality

00:07:34 ◼   ► in terms of contrast and HDR kind of stuff.

00:07:39 ◼   ► I don't know.

00:07:40 ◼   ► Interesting starting to take focus.

00:07:42 ◼   ► And I know we're going to talk a little bit more about another report

00:07:45 ◼   ► later on about this.

00:07:46 ◼   ► But 2021, now that 2020 is almost over,

00:07:49 ◼   ► I guess it's time to start talking about 2021

00:07:51 ◼   ► and what's going to happen.

00:07:53 ◼   ► - We're basically in 2021 now at this point.

00:07:57 ◼   ► - Pretty close.

00:07:58 ◼   ► I mean, I don't know, Myke, are we?

00:08:00 ◼   ► I mean, do we really know for sure

00:08:03 ◼   ► that Apple's done releasing new products?

00:08:07 ◼   ► Do we really know that?

00:08:09 ◼   ► - No.

00:08:10 ◼   ► So this is fun.

00:08:10 ◼   ► This is weird.

00:08:12 ◼   ► Okay, so depending on when you're listening to this episode,

00:08:15 ◼   ► this might make varying levels of sense.

00:08:19 ◼   ► So there is a rumor circulating this week,

00:08:23 ◼   ► boy, in the past few days,

00:08:24 ◼   ► that Apple will be releasing something

00:08:27 ◼   ► on Tuesday the 8th at 5.30 AM Pacific Time.

00:08:32 ◼   ► So depending on when you're listening to this show,

00:08:35 ◼   ► you will even know if or if not this has happened.

00:08:38 ◼   ► This came from a couple of different sources

00:08:40 ◼   ► as a reliable Twitter leaker who goes by the handle

00:08:43 ◼   ► I love to dream, who's been talking about

00:08:46 ◼   ► there being some kind of Christmas surprise.

00:08:48 ◼   ► And then there was an internal memo to the Apple Care team,

00:08:52 ◼   ► which was picked up by 9to5Mac and others,

00:08:55 ◼   ► that is saying that Apple Care representatives need to,

00:08:58 ◼   ► quote, "Prepare for new product SKUs,

00:09:01 ◼   ► new or updated product descriptions,

00:09:03 ◼   ► and new or updated product pricing."

00:09:07 ◼   ► So I thought, considering I reckon most of our audience

00:09:12 ◼   ► are probably listening to this after it's happened,

00:09:15 ◼   ► that it would be fun if we made predictions

00:09:18 ◼   ► of what we thought that this might be.

00:09:20 ◼   ► - Okay.

00:09:21 ◼   ► We are all waiting for an upgrade

00:09:23 ◼   ► to the Apple TV box itself, right?

00:09:25 ◼   ► Everybody's been waiting for that.

00:09:27 ◼   ► Seems like a strange time to do it,

00:09:29 ◼   ► but I mean, on the other hand, maybe it doesn't matter.

00:09:32 ◼   ► But I don't know if they could use it

00:09:35 ◼   ► to promote Apple TV+ or something.

00:09:37 ◼   ► We've got fitness still to come,

00:09:40 ◼   ► and Apple TV is one of the ways you can integrate

00:09:45 ◼   ► with fitness, so I wonder if they might be doing something

00:09:49 ◼   ► as a sort of one-two punch, so you get an Apple TV

00:09:52 ◼   ► and you get the Fitness+ thing.

00:09:55 ◼   ► I don't know, it's possible.

00:09:56 ◼   ► It's been hanging out there,

00:09:57 ◼   ► the prospect of new Apple TV hardware for a while,

00:10:00 ◼   ► if they've got a story to tell.

00:10:01 ◼   ► It's always what we say about Apple.

00:10:04 ◼   ► It's about the story that they're trying to tell.

00:10:05 ◼   ► A lot of times, product releases and the timing

00:10:08 ◼   ► and what gets released together is about Apple

00:10:10 ◼   ► trying to tell a story, not just say,

00:10:13 ◼   ► here's a new box to buy.

00:10:14 ◼   ► - I also still think it could be possible

00:10:17 ◼   ► that it will be AirPods related.

00:10:19 ◼   ► - It could, for sure.

00:10:20 ◼   ► And there are all sorts of other wacky things.

00:10:22 ◼   ► I mean, Christmas surprise.

00:10:23 ◼   ► I mean, it could be over-the-ear AirPods,

00:10:27 ◼   ► it could be AirTags, it could be all the products

00:10:29 ◼   ► that they haven't shipped that we say,

00:10:31 ◼   ► why are they not shipping?

00:10:32 ◼   ► Or it could be something unexpected

00:10:34 ◼   ► and not what we traditionally think of as a product, right?

00:10:38 ◼   ► - I think whatever it is,

00:10:40 ◼   ► if you listen to this before Tuesday

00:10:43 ◼   ► to kind of set people's expectations,

00:10:45 ◼   ► it's gonna be a small thing, whatever it is, I think.

00:10:49 ◼   ► Because there's no event.

00:10:50 ◼   ► I haven't heard anyone that knows anyone

00:10:54 ◼   ► that knows anyone that has any products, right?

00:10:57 ◼   ► Like this seems like it could be,

00:10:59 ◼   ► if it's gonna be anything,

00:11:01 ◼   ► I would say it's accessory related

00:11:03 ◼   ► or kind of small in that regard.

00:11:06 ◼   ► - I think that's right.

00:11:07 ◼   ► - Like small revision to a thing.

00:11:09 ◼   ► Like Apple TV's not gonna be that different

00:11:12 ◼   ► no matter what they do to it, I expect.

00:11:14 ◼   ► - Well, it might even be more about an upgrade for hardware

00:11:18 ◼   ► and then the lower end hardware changes price.

00:11:20 ◼   ► And it's really the story is that you can now get

00:11:22 ◼   ► into the Apple TV for this price

00:11:24 ◼   ► or it's little stuff like that or it's an accessory product.

00:11:28 ◼   ► I think that's right.

00:11:29 ◼   ► - Anything else though?

00:11:30 ◼   ► Any other wild predictions you might wanna make?

00:11:32 ◼   ► - I'm gonna make a dumb prediction

00:11:33 ◼   ► based on the Snell Talk question earlier

00:11:36 ◼   ► and say, "Product read, MacBook Air.

00:11:40 ◼   ► Ho, ho, ho."

00:11:41 ◼   ► - Interesting.

00:11:44 ◼   ► - Something like that is what I was getting at

00:11:47 ◼   ► with things that aren't quite products

00:11:50 ◼   ► but are announcements, something like that

00:11:52 ◼   ► where there was like a holiday edition of something

00:11:55 ◼   ► or something like that.

00:11:56 ◼   ► That's another way you could go

00:11:57 ◼   ► and just roll something out.

00:12:00 ◼   ► I don't know.

00:12:00 ◼   ► - My only other would be some kind of MagSafe battery case.

00:12:05 ◼   ► - Sure.

00:12:06 ◼   ► - 'Cause that's the MagSafe stuff,

00:12:09 ◼   ► or sorry, the battery case stuff and headphones stuff,

00:12:12 ◼   ► like AirPods and stuff.

00:12:13 ◼   ► These are things they have released late in the year

00:12:16 ◼   ► with just press releases in the past

00:12:17 ◼   ► if there's even a press release at all.

00:12:20 ◼   ► But I would love to see a product read more

00:12:23 ◼   ► and they just did just double down

00:12:25 ◼   ► on their product read campaign stuff, right?

00:12:28 ◼   ► Apple just released a big thing about that.

00:12:30 ◼   ► Who knows?

00:12:34 ◼   ► Voting nominations for the 2020 upgrade is still open.

00:12:39 ◼   ► We've had over 600 upgrade-ians

00:12:42 ◼   ► making their nominations so far.

00:12:44 ◼   ► Make sure you join them by going to upgradees.vote

00:12:48 ◼   ► and there'll be a link in the show notes

00:12:49 ◼   ► to the nomination form.

00:12:51 ◼   ► Go in, select the things that you want to nominate,

00:12:54 ◼   ► maybe if your favorite apps, your favorite media,

00:12:57 ◼   ► some of your favorite tech stories of the year,

00:12:59 ◼   ► your favorite products of the year.

00:13:01 ◼   ► You can vote for as many of these categories as you wish.

00:13:04 ◼   ► So please go and check it out

00:13:06 ◼   ► and help us prepare for the seventh annual upgradees,

00:13:10 ◼   ► which is going to be happening on Monday, December 28th,

00:13:15 ◼   ► is going to be the seventh annual upgradees.

00:13:19 ◼   ► So we'll either close voting,

00:13:23 ◼   ► either the 18th or sometime in Christmas week.

00:13:28 ◼   ► So make sure that you get it in now.

00:13:30 ◼   ► Probably on next week's episode,

00:13:32 ◼   ► I'll announce the closing date for votes.

00:13:34 ◼   ► It kind of depends on how many we have,

00:13:37 ◼   ► because the more votes we have,

00:13:38 ◼   ► the longer it takes for me to bring it together.

00:13:41 ◼   ► So, you know, it's kind of like,

00:13:44 ◼   ► I would really love it if everybody could get their votes in

00:13:46 ◼   ► sooner rather than later

00:13:47 ◼   ► so I know exactly when to close voting.

00:13:49 ◼   ► But that's kind of,

00:13:51 ◼   ► we know it's going to be on the 28th though.

00:13:53 ◼   ► So you have that to look forward to,

00:13:55 ◼   ► to round out your year.

00:13:58 ◼   ► - End on a high note.

00:13:59 ◼   ► - Indeed. How much higher a note could it be

00:14:02 ◼   ► than the upgradees?

00:14:03 ◼   ► - Not higher than that, Myke Hurley.

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00:17:12 ◼   ► for their support of this show.

00:17:13 ◼   ► So we're gonna do a bit of a extended upstream,

00:17:18 ◼   ► I think, for this week,

00:17:19 ◼   ► more in talking about a large topic rather than news,

00:17:24 ◼   ► which is that HBO Max is getting all the movies.

00:17:27 ◼   ► All the movies.

00:17:29 ◼   ► WarnerMedia announced that all of their 2021 movies

00:17:32 ◼   ► will appear on HBO Max

00:17:34 ◼   ► on the intended cinematic release dates.

00:17:36 ◼   ► I worded this very particularly,

00:17:39 ◼   ► 'cause I kept seeing this headline,

00:17:41 ◼   ► which was very funny and confusing,

00:17:42 ◼   ► which was that WarnerMedia would release

00:17:45 ◼   ► all of their 2021 movies simultaneously on HBO Max,

00:17:49 ◼   ► which makes it sound like all the movies

00:17:51 ◼   ► are coming at the same time.

00:17:52 ◼   ► - Wow, binge watch.

00:17:54 ◼   ► 17 movies, we're dropping them on April 4th

00:17:57 ◼   ► and have fun kids.

00:17:59 ◼   ► - One month, do it.

00:18:01 ◼   ► But no, they're gonna be coming out on the same days

00:18:04 ◼   ► that they either will be in cinemas

00:18:06 ◼   ► or expected to be in cinemas,

00:18:08 ◼   ► depending on where you are in the world.

00:18:10 ◼   ► Each of these movies will spend 31 days on the service

00:18:14 ◼   ► from when they are premiered.

00:18:16 ◼   ► This will be at no extra charge for HBO Max subscribers.

00:18:20 ◼   ► The 17 movies include "The Suicide Squad,"

00:18:23 ◼   ► "The Matrix 4," "Dune," "Godzilla vs. Kong,"

00:18:26 ◼   ► "Space Jam and New Legacy," "Tom and Jerry,"

00:18:29 ◼   ► "Mortal Kombat," "In the Heights,"

00:18:31 ◼   ► which is a musical from Limon Miranda turned into a movie,

00:18:35 ◼   ► and "The Many Saints of Newark,"

00:18:36 ◼   ► which is the Sopranos prequel,

00:18:38 ◼   ► which is a movie I didn't know existed

00:18:40 ◼   ► and I'm very excited about.

00:18:41 ◼   ► - Yeah, this is huge news.

00:18:45 ◼   ► The, it's complicated, right?

00:18:48 ◼   ► And there are a lot of simple takes out there,

00:18:50 ◼   ► and I think upstream listeners know that it's complicated

00:18:54 ◼   ► because we've walked through so many of these points before.

00:18:57 ◼   ► There are a lot of things going on here, right?

00:18:59 ◼   ► So first off is the destruction of,

00:19:02 ◼   ► especially in the US, the theatrical market.

00:19:06 ◼   ► It's gone.

00:19:08 ◼   ► And with the current COVID-19 stats,

00:19:10 ◼   ► it's not gonna come back very fast.

00:19:13 ◼   ► Even with vaccinations,

00:19:14 ◼   ► I think what they said is they were looking at calendar 2021

00:19:17 ◼   ► and trying to guess what percentage of normal

00:19:21 ◼   ► would the box office be in 2021?

00:19:26 ◼   ► And even if there are places that are coming back

00:19:29 ◼   ► and vaccines are going out and things are going down,

00:19:32 ◼   ► they try to imagine, well,

00:19:33 ◼   ► how many people are gonna go to a movie theater

00:19:35 ◼   ► in the summer of 2021?

00:19:36 ◼   ► And the answer is still like 50%, 30%, 60%.

00:19:40 ◼   ► I don't know, but it's certainly not 100% or 90%

00:19:43 ◼   ► or even 80%, I would think.

00:19:44 ◼   ► I think it's gonna be a long build.

00:19:47 ◼   ► And I think they decided to just say,

00:19:49 ◼   ► we're gonna write off 2021 theatrical.

00:19:51 ◼   ► There will be some, and we will play to whatever is there,

00:19:56 ◼   ► but they've decided that they're going to instead

00:20:00 ◼   ► use their 2021 slate plus "Wonder Woman" to build HBO Max,

00:20:05 ◼   ► which they want, they've invested a lot of money in,

00:20:08 ◼   ► and they want to be a real player in the streaming space.

00:20:12 ◼   ► And they've had a struggle launching it.

00:20:15 ◼   ► I think the stat that I saw that was the biggest struggle

00:20:17 ◼   ► is that some enormous number of Americans with cable

00:20:21 ◼   ► pay for HBO and they get HBO Max

00:20:25 ◼   ► with their cable subscription to HBO.

00:20:27 ◼   ► They get it, I get it.

00:20:29 ◼   ► I pay Comcast for HBO and I get HBO Max.

00:20:34 ◼   ► There's a huge number of those people,

00:20:36 ◼   ► like 60, 70%, I forget the number, it's very large,

00:20:39 ◼   ► who have never signed up for HBO Max.

00:20:43 ◼   ► So that's a challenge, right?

00:20:45 ◼   ► Like they can't even get people for whom HBO Max is free

00:20:49 ◼   ► to make an effort to get it.

00:20:52 ◼   ► So this is an interesting move, right?

00:20:55 ◼   ► 'Cause this is HBO and Warner saying,

00:21:00 ◼   ► if you wanna watch all of these movies,

00:21:03 ◼   ► all you have to do is sign up for this streaming service

00:21:05 ◼   ► and we're gonna roll out full-on theatrical releases

00:21:09 ◼   ► of movies every month from Christmas 2020 through 2021

00:21:14 ◼   ► and use that as a driver to make HBO Max more appealing.

00:21:20 ◼   ► And then once they're there, the whole idea is,

00:21:22 ◼   ► yeah, some people are gonna just subscribe for a month

00:21:26 ◼   ► and then cancel, but a lot of people won't.

00:21:28 ◼   ► And that's the goal is to build up people

00:21:30 ◼   ► and let them see the rest of the service

00:21:32 ◼   ► and grow HBO Max and set it off in a direction.

00:21:35 ◼   ► And so they're gonna spend a lot of money

00:21:36 ◼   ► basically buying out the theatrical side

00:21:41 ◼   ► and losing money on these movies, frankly,

00:21:45 ◼   ► in order to build up what they hope long-term

00:21:49 ◼   ► is this big subscription base for HBO Max.

00:21:53 ◼   ► So it's a huge move, but the pandemic makes it

00:21:58 ◼   ► an easier move than it would have ever been.

00:22:00 ◼   ► Like you and I have talked before about the question of,

00:22:04 ◼   ► how do you do this?

00:22:05 ◼   ► How do you make the move and say,

00:22:06 ◼   ► we have to be more aggressive with streaming?

00:22:08 ◼   ► And I'm not sure if theatrical releases

00:22:11 ◼   ► make as much economic sense as they used to.

00:22:13 ◼   ► It's a very difficult thing.

00:22:14 ◼   ► It's a lot easier when you look at calendar 2021

00:22:17 ◼   ► and say, there's no way that theaters are going to be,

00:22:19 ◼   ► in the US at least, are gonna be any, even a fraction.

00:22:23 ◼   ► And do we wanna hold all of our movies till 2022?

00:22:25 ◼   ► Well, we don't, and we just launched HBO Max.

00:22:27 ◼   ► So now is the time, let's just do it.

00:22:29 ◼   ► And it's an aggressive move

00:22:30 ◼   ► and they're gonna spend a lot of money on this,

00:22:32 ◼   ► but if they really want HBO Max to be a thing,

00:22:35 ◼   ► I think they need to do stuff like this.

00:22:36 ◼   ► So I understand why they're doing it.

00:22:38 ◼   ► - There will be no more free trials of HBO Max.

00:22:43 ◼   ► It was only a seven day trial anyway,

00:22:46 ◼   ► but they've nixed that before Wonder Woman comes out.

00:22:51 ◼   ► You know, just to make, look, I get that.

00:22:53 ◼   ► It's like, yeah, it's probably a good idea.

00:22:56 ◼   ► - Yeah, no, it makes sense.

00:22:58 ◼   ► This is their strategy now.

00:22:59 ◼   ► This is their, not their original HBO Max launch strategy,

00:23:02 ◼   ► but it's the one they found,

00:23:03 ◼   ► which is we got a movie studio,

00:23:05 ◼   ► we have a pandemic where movies are not really able

00:23:07 ◼   ► to be released in our home market.

00:23:09 ◼   ► We're just gonna roll this out

00:23:11 ◼   ► and we're going to use our movie studios releases

00:23:14 ◼   ► to drive subscriptions to our streaming service.

00:23:17 ◼   ► And they have the power to do that because they own both.

00:23:20 ◼   ► And we are in a moment where they can do that.

00:23:24 ◼   ► It's interesting too, 'cause you know,

00:23:25 ◼   ► some of the theaters have pushed back

00:23:27 ◼   ► and complained about it and said,

00:23:29 ◼   ► well, we don't know if we'll carry their movies anymore

00:23:31 ◼   ► and things like that, which makes me roll my eyes

00:23:33 ◼   ► a little bit because one side has all the power here

00:23:36 ◼   ► and it's the studios, it's not the theaters.

00:23:38 ◼   ► - It's like, there's such, it's such like reverse thinking

00:23:42 ◼   ► too, where it's like, it would be damaging to us.

00:23:45 ◼   ► We're upset because it's damaging to us

00:23:47 ◼   ► if you pull your movies out of our theaters.

00:23:51 ◼   ► So now we're also going to ban those movies

00:23:53 ◼   ► from our theaters.

00:23:54 ◼   ► It's like, we'll see you're double damaging yourself.

00:23:57 ◼   ► - Also, they're not pulling the movies

00:23:58 ◼   ► out of the theaters, right?

00:23:59 ◼   ► If there are theaters exhibiting the movies,

00:24:00 ◼   ► they will exhibit them in that window

00:24:03 ◼   ► and people can choose to go to the theaters,

00:24:04 ◼   ► which seems like not the worst model.

00:24:06 ◼   ► Like you can watch it in home or you can go out

00:24:09 ◼   ► to a big movie theater if you're comfortable

00:24:11 ◼   ► and you want to see it on a big screen with great sound

00:24:13 ◼   ► and all of that and have that positive experience,

00:24:15 ◼   ► you can do that.

00:24:16 ◼   ► But the truth is they, you know,

00:24:19 ◼   ► they had to make this move, I think.

00:24:21 ◼   ► I think this is a smart move.

00:24:22 ◼   ► I think it's a gamble, but given where theatrical is

00:24:26 ◼   ► and is going to be in the near future.

00:24:28 ◼   ► And it does call into question the whole,

00:24:30 ◼   ► like what is the movie theater world look like

00:24:34 ◼   ► in let's say 2022 as things come back,

00:24:37 ◼   ► especially in the US.

00:24:38 ◼   ► So I think the answer is very different

00:24:40 ◼   ► from what it looked like in 2019.

00:24:43 ◼   ► That's just going to be a fact.

00:24:46 ◼   ► I'm unclear, I'm not entirely convinced

00:24:48 ◼   ► that this model is going to persist.

00:24:50 ◼   ► HBO says it's not going to persist.

00:24:52 ◼   ► Warner says, this is just for 2021.

00:24:54 ◼   ► I think what we get to in 2022 is going to be different

00:24:57 ◼   ► from 2019, but I'm not sure it's going to look like this

00:25:01 ◼   ► where giant hundreds of millions of dollar blockbusters

00:25:05 ◼   ► can be seen on day one in a movie theater

00:25:08 ◼   ► or on your streaming service.

00:25:10 ◼   ► I'm not sure that's where they end up.

00:25:12 ◼   ► Maybe it is, but certainly the windows are going to be

00:25:16 ◼   ► a lot smaller for if there's any window at all.

00:25:20 ◼   ► - I think the genie's out of the bottle now.

00:25:22 ◼   ► - I think so.

00:25:23 ◼   ► - I think it's going to be particularly interesting

00:25:26 ◼   ► that later this week Disney have their investors call.

00:25:29 ◼   ► And so you would expect them to do or say something,

00:25:34 ◼   ► which is also along these lines.

00:25:37 ◼   ► I don't think by any stretch of the imagination,

00:25:39 ◼   ► they are going to do what Warner have done.

00:25:42 ◼   ► You know, you've got, it's a very different mix

00:25:46 ◼   ► you've got here, right?

00:25:47 ◼   ► Like Disney Plus has like 70 million subscribers,

00:25:50 ◼   ► so they don't need to try and get more, right?

00:25:54 ◼   ► Like yes.

00:25:55 ◼   ► HBO Max I think is like eight.

00:25:56 ◼   ► - Well, Disney built its service on that library, right?

00:26:01 ◼   ► Especially the stuff that they had previously withheld

00:26:04 ◼   ► and they put it all in.

00:26:05 ◼   ► And that was at the time we talked about it,

00:26:08 ◼   ► kind of a big move for Disney to be like,

00:26:09 ◼   ► there's no Disney Vault.

00:26:10 ◼   ► The Disney Vault is now Disney Plus.

00:26:12 ◼   ► It's all there.

00:26:14 ◼   ► And that was a big step for them.

00:26:16 ◼   ► But Warner doesn't have quite that, that cache.

00:26:21 ◼   ► And then they of course have contracts

00:26:23 ◼   ► where they've sold a bunch of their stuff

00:26:25 ◼   ► out to other services

00:26:26 ◼   ► and then it'll be years before they get it back.

00:26:28 ◼   ► But this is something they can try.

00:26:30 ◼   ► - But I think that once, so here's my question.

00:26:35 ◼   ► If a studio makes this decision,

00:26:38 ◼   ► so Warner has made this decision,

00:26:39 ◼   ► Disney is doing, is dipping their toe in the water, right?

00:26:43 ◼   ► Like they have Mulan, which you could pay for.

00:26:46 ◼   ► They have Soul, which is going to be available for free.

00:26:49 ◼   ► I'm sure they'll have others.

00:26:52 ◼   ► If you start doing this, can you stop doing this?

00:26:57 ◼   ► - I think, I mean, so I just said,

00:27:01 ◼   ► who knows what 2022 looks like,

00:27:02 ◼   ► but I think it will be very hard.

00:27:05 ◼   ► I think we're gonna, and maybe I'm wishcasting a little bit,

00:27:08 ◼   ► but I think the theatrical model of the future

00:27:12 ◼   ► is going to be that movies are available in theaters,

00:27:15 ◼   ► but exclusivity is either not an issue or a minor issue.

00:27:20 ◼   ► That the reason you go to a movie theater

00:27:22 ◼   ► is because it's a night out and the screen is huge

00:27:25 ◼   ► and the sound is good and they'll bring you food and drink

00:27:28 ◼   ► and you can have a good time with your friends

00:27:29 ◼   ► and you're enjoying a movie with an audience.

00:27:31 ◼   ► And it's a theatrical experience as opposed to,

00:27:36 ◼   ► and again, I apologize

00:27:38 ◼   ► if there are any movie theater operators out there,

00:27:40 ◼   ► but like so much of the movie theater experience

00:27:43 ◼   ► in modern times is lousy.

00:27:46 ◼   ► It's literally, you can't see this anywhere else.

00:27:49 ◼   ► So we've provided a crappy theater

00:27:51 ◼   ► with not a very good screen and not very good sound.

00:27:54 ◼   ► And it's sort of an unpleasant experience.

00:27:57 ◼   ► You want to escape as quickly as you can,

00:28:00 ◼   ► but because we're the only game in town,

00:28:02 ◼   ► you have to come and give us money

00:28:03 ◼   ► in order to watch this movie.

00:28:05 ◼   ► And that was a bad experience already.

00:28:07 ◼   ► And I think going forward, it's not gonna be good enough.

00:28:10 ◼   ► And movie theaters that do the bare minimum

00:28:12 ◼   ► are not going to make it.

00:28:14 ◼   ► And we're gonna end up in a situation

00:28:16 ◼   ► where people will still go to movie theaters,

00:28:18 ◼   ► but it won't be driven by this artificial exclusivity

00:28:23 ◼   ► of the only place you can see it

00:28:25 ◼   ► is in our little lousy theater.

00:28:28 ◼   ► That it'll be, you know, you'll have to choose to go.

00:28:31 ◼   ► The movie theater will be a place

00:28:32 ◼   ► you need to want to go to it.

00:28:35 ◼   ► I think that's gonna be the big difference

00:28:36 ◼   ► because I do think it will be very hard

00:28:37 ◼   ► for the audience too.

00:28:39 ◼   ► Like I'm gonna watch "Wonder Woman" on Christmas day

00:28:44 ◼   ► in 4K HDR 'cause they upgraded HBO Max

00:28:47 ◼   ► is finally gonna get 4K HDR support on my 65 inch TV.

00:28:52 ◼   ► And not everybody has a big TV like that

00:28:54 ◼   ► and everybody's got the difference,

00:28:55 ◼   ► but like people have way better stuff

00:28:57 ◼   ► even if it's on your phone.

00:28:59 ◼   ► Like honestly, sometimes the experience is gonna be bigger

00:29:02 ◼   ► and better in all of these cases

00:29:04 ◼   ► than it would necessarily be in a lousy movie theater.

00:29:06 ◼   ► It's gonna be hard to go back.

00:29:07 ◼   ► - I am a at home movie person.

00:29:13 ◼   ► That is my decision.

00:29:15 ◼   ► I will go to the cinema maybe once or twice a year

00:29:19 ◼   ► to catch that movie that I otherwise feel

00:29:24 ◼   ► I couldn't wait for.

00:29:26 ◼   ► It's typically a big Disney blockbuster

00:29:28 ◼   ► and it's the case of like, well, if you don't see it now

00:29:31 ◼   ► everyone's gonna spoil it for you.

00:29:33 ◼   ► - Right.

00:29:34 ◼   ► - So if you care about this property,

00:29:37 ◼   ► you should go and see it.

00:29:38 ◼   ► And frankly, I'm not sure that that is a relationship

00:29:44 ◼   ► that I care too much about.

00:29:46 ◼   ► It doesn't really seem like that's a thing,

00:29:50 ◼   ► like that particular reason is enough

00:29:51 ◼   ► to make me care about going to the theater.

00:29:54 ◼   ► Like I appreciate that this is obviously a huge industry

00:29:58 ◼   ► and there are a lot of people who are struggling,

00:30:01 ◼   ► but it is an industry that needs to change

00:30:04 ◼   ► and has needed to change for decades

00:30:07 ◼   ► because everybody knows they're too expensive,

00:30:11 ◼   ► they charge you too much money for all of the things

00:30:14 ◼   ► that they want you to buy and you're kind of,

00:30:16 ◼   ► and they actively disallow you from bringing your own food

00:30:20 ◼   ► and drink in.

00:30:22 ◼   ► - Well, that's how they make their money,

00:30:23 ◼   ► but here's the problem with it is

00:30:25 ◼   ► the experience isn't very good.

00:30:26 ◼   ► That's the truth of it is.

00:30:28 ◼   ► Not only is it expensive, but it's expensive

00:30:29 ◼   ► for one of those hot dogs

00:30:30 ◼   ► that's on the little metal roller thing

00:30:32 ◼   ► for a million years. - Exactly.

00:30:33 ◼   ► - And stuff like that.

00:30:34 ◼   ► - But you go to the really nice boutique cinemas

00:30:38 ◼   ► where they have food.

00:30:39 ◼   ► - Great.

00:30:40 ◼   ► - You and I and a bunch of people we know

00:30:42 ◼   ► for your bachelor party, we went to Avengers Infinity War

00:30:47 ◼   ► at Alamo Drafthouse in Austin.

00:30:50 ◼   ► - Talk about Obama.

00:30:52 ◼   ► - We sat together and we got, well, yeah, I know.

00:30:55 ◼   ► We knew what was coming, we'd already seen it.

00:30:57 ◼   ► But we're an audience and we got food and we have beer

00:31:01 ◼   ► and it was so much fun.

00:31:03 ◼   ► It's like I would love, I would do that.

00:31:06 ◼   ► I would do that kind of experience a lot,

00:31:09 ◼   ► but the warmed over hot dog and kind of crappy popcorn

00:31:14 ◼   ► for a lot of money to sit in a kind of badly cleaned

00:31:19 ◼   ► threadbare movie theater that isn't,

00:31:22 ◼   ► and the sound isn't very good, it's not the best.

00:31:26 ◼   ► So yeah, I'm just gonna say it.

00:31:29 ◼   ► I think those kinds of movie theaters

00:31:31 ◼   ► need to go out of business.

00:31:32 ◼   ► And I think that the movie theater industry

00:31:34 ◼   ► needs to focus on a better experience.

00:31:36 ◼   ► And then I do think people will pay to go see it

00:31:40 ◼   ► as a better experience.

00:31:41 ◼   ► But I think that that's what they're going to need

00:31:43 ◼   ► to try to do.

00:31:44 ◼   ► Now, maybe there will be a window.

00:31:45 ◼   ► Like I could see it.

00:31:47 ◼   ► 'Cause you think about marketing too.

00:31:49 ◼   ► You make as a movie theater or as a movie studio,

00:31:51 ◼   ► you make this huge investment in marketing for your product.

00:31:55 ◼   ► And then the windows are so long that you've got to make

00:31:57 ◼   ► that investment again when it goes to streaming

00:32:00 ◼   ► or when it's available for rent on all the rental platforms,

00:32:05 ◼   ► the video on demand platforms, it's a lot.

00:32:07 ◼   ► So one of the arguments about making the window way smaller

00:32:12 ◼   ► is you only ever have to do one marketing campaign.

00:32:14 ◼   ► So you say Wonder Woman 84 or The Matrix 4,

00:32:18 ◼   ► and maybe it's coming to theaters and everybody knows

00:32:22 ◼   ► that it's in theaters exclusively for a week or two weeks.

00:32:25 ◼   ► But that's it.

00:32:26 ◼   ► And then it's on streaming and you can get it there.

00:32:29 ◼   ► - I agree with you that that seems like probably

00:32:31 ◼   ► the way it's gonna go.

00:32:32 ◼   ► But I think even that kills the theater industry.

00:32:35 ◼   ► Because who cares enough?

00:32:37 ◼   ► How many movies really do people care enough about

00:32:42 ◼   ► that they will go to?

00:32:44 ◼   ► Now, the idea of the movie theater for dates,

00:32:47 ◼   ► for things for friends to do, that kind of thing in theory

00:32:50 ◼   ► will continue, but I'm just not sure that this industry

00:32:55 ◼   ► is one of the industries that continues

00:33:02 ◼   ► in the post-COVID world.

00:33:04 ◼   ► Like restaurants, no problem.

00:33:07 ◼   ► Once the restaurant industry can get back on its feet again,

00:33:12 ◼   ► people are not going to stop going to restaurants.

00:33:15 ◼   ► I just don't believe that.

00:33:17 ◼   ► There will be changes to their industry,

00:33:18 ◼   ► like something that's happened in a lot of metropolitan

00:33:20 ◼   ► areas and I hope continues is like a similar idea,

00:33:23 ◼   ► which is they will send you their ingredients

00:33:25 ◼   ► and you cook it at home, which is like,

00:33:28 ◼   ► I guess is like the only link analogous that I can make

00:33:31 ◼   ► of like have it at home or have it in the place.

00:33:34 ◼   ► But it's still nicer to have it in the place

00:33:36 ◼   ► because the restaurant industry is based around

00:33:39 ◼   ► providing you a nice experience and taking all of the work

00:33:43 ◼   ► away from you, right?

00:33:44 ◼   ► But the majority of the movie, the cinema theater industry

00:33:49 ◼   ► is providing you that not great experience,

00:33:56 ◼   ► but locking away the thing that you want.

00:33:58 ◼   ► And the only way you can get it for months

00:34:01 ◼   ► is to go to them.

00:34:02 ◼   ► And I'm not sure that that is a thing that's going to happen.

00:34:07 ◼   ► I really don't think so.

00:34:10 ◼   ► - Yeah, and it's going to have to,

00:34:17 ◼   ► obviously it's gonna have to work itself out

00:34:20 ◼   ► and there's gonna be pain and there's gonna be failure

00:34:22 ◼   ► and there's gonna be success and the industry

00:34:24 ◼   ► is going to kind of like change.

00:34:25 ◼   ► But I think the truth is you would never invent an industry

00:34:29 ◼   ► to look like this, you wouldn't.

00:34:32 ◼   ► - No, it's one that adapts over time, becomes greedy.

00:34:35 ◼   ► - In the chat room pointing out the stale hot dog industry

00:34:38 ◼   ► and the people who make the little rollers,

00:34:40 ◼   ► it's gonna be a tough time for them.

00:34:41 ◼   ► It's gonna be different and there are different things,

00:34:46 ◼   ► right, like if you are in a small town

00:34:48 ◼   ► or something like that, like you're not gonna have

00:34:50 ◼   ► that super high quality theater necessarily.

00:34:53 ◼   ► Although I grew up in a small town

00:34:55 ◼   ► and we had a five screen movie theater.

00:34:58 ◼   ► Originally it was a two screen movie theater

00:34:59 ◼   ► and they added three tiny awful screens.

00:35:02 ◼   ► And I keep thinking like maybe in the end the story is

00:35:07 ◼   ► that that movie theater ends up having two better screens

00:35:12 ◼   ► so people can have a really nice experience.

00:35:15 ◼   ► But the other thing is it does provide access to movies

00:35:17 ◼   ► and streaming has already done this,

00:35:19 ◼   ► to movies that you wouldn't otherwise see

00:35:20 ◼   ► 'cause you don't have a movie theater nearby

00:35:22 ◼   ► or you don't have a good movie theater nearby

00:35:24 ◼   ► and now you can just watch the movie instead

00:35:28 ◼   ► of this weird monopoly where the cheap movie theater owner

00:35:33 ◼   ► for your town has two screens and they're the only place

00:35:37 ◼   ► you can see the latest Marvel movie for six months

00:35:40 ◼   ► and so you have to go and give them money,

00:35:43 ◼   ► not because the experience is good,

00:35:44 ◼   ► but because they're the ones who have the exclusive on it

00:35:47 ◼   ► and that is not great either.

00:35:49 ◼   ► So the problem that we detailed before is

00:35:52 ◼   ► if you don't have a theatrical market that is driving sales

00:35:56 ◼   ► and we live in an era where we can talk about

00:35:58 ◼   ► how bad the movie theater industry is for customers

00:36:01 ◼   ► in so many different ways,

00:36:02 ◼   ► but we also live in an era where movies,

00:36:05 ◼   ► we had a bunch of movies make more than a billion dollars

00:36:07 ◼   ► at the box office.

00:36:08 ◼   ► Like they're blockbusters

00:36:11 ◼   ► and that's why they make blockbusters

00:36:12 ◼   ► is because those are the ones that make a lot of money

00:36:15 ◼   ► at the box office.

00:36:16 ◼   ► So here's the thing, I don't think anybody,

00:36:20 ◼   ► any movie is going to have a billion dollars

00:36:22 ◼   ► worth of worth if it goes direct to streaming, right?

00:36:26 ◼   ► That's the problem is the theater market

00:36:29 ◼   ► is a very lucrative important market for studios too.

00:36:33 ◼   ► So they don't want to abandon it,

00:36:35 ◼   ► but they probably need to change their approach.

00:36:38 ◼   ► I think, I honestly think that we're gonna not see

00:36:43 ◼   ► as many blockbuster movies

00:36:44 ◼   ► and we're gonna see a lot more mid price movies

00:36:46 ◼   ► where the budgets are gonna come down

00:36:48 ◼   ► and they're gonna be aware

00:36:49 ◼   ► 'cause once you know that you can't make $3 billion

00:36:53 ◼   ► in theatrical, you're not gonna spend

00:36:56 ◼   ► as much money making the movies.

00:36:58 ◼   ► And so, maybe the next round of Marvel movies

00:37:00 ◼   ► after the ones they've already greenlit,

00:37:02 ◼   ► maybe they're all about half the budget they were before

00:37:05 ◼   ► or something like that

00:37:06 ◼   ► because they know they're not gonna make

00:37:07 ◼   ► as much money theatrically,

00:37:09 ◼   ► but then they're gonna make,

00:37:10 ◼   ► they're building the value of Disney+

00:37:12 ◼   ► and Disney+ throws off this amount of money

00:37:15 ◼   ► and that makes it worth it.

00:37:16 ◼   ► Ultimately, this is massive amounts of disruption,

00:37:21 ◼   ► but this is the kind of thing

00:37:23 ◼   ► that the pandemic time is going to do for many industries.

00:37:28 ◼   ► And so it's like, you know,

00:37:30 ◼   ► just to recap this in case we're not being clear,

00:37:33 ◼   ► I feel for people whose livelihoods are affected by this,

00:37:37 ◼   ► but what we're saying is that the companies

00:37:40 ◼   ► that own these movie theater chains

00:37:42 ◼   ► need to change the expectations that they have

00:37:46 ◼   ► of what they can get

00:37:47 ◼   ► and how they can charge their customers, right?

00:37:50 ◼   ► But just the practicalities of it

00:37:52 ◼   ► is that the public either won't feel safe, won't be safe,

00:37:56 ◼   ► or change their habits in such a way

00:37:59 ◼   ► that they won't want to go to the theater anymore.

00:38:02 ◼   ► And ultimately, you can't force people to do it.

00:38:07 ◼   ► I personally can't imagine going to see a movie

00:38:12 ◼   ► in a cinema for years, years,

00:38:15 ◼   ► because I wasn't doing it that much anyway.

00:38:18 ◼   ► So why would I do it, right?

00:38:20 ◼   ► And so it's because I don't feel comfortable

00:38:24 ◼   ► with doing it now.

00:38:25 ◼   ► - Well, they closed the good movie theater in my county.

00:38:29 ◼   ► So now I would have to go to a bad theater

00:38:31 ◼   ► or go drive a bit to go to a good theater.

00:38:35 ◼   ► And, you know, maybe I would do that at some point,

00:38:37 ◼   ► but you're right.

00:38:38 ◼   ► I think if you look at the introduction of home video,

00:38:41 ◼   ► this has been a long, very slow motion car crash, right?

00:38:46 ◼   ► Like the availability,

00:38:49 ◼   ► because what you want is people want to see movies.

00:38:51 ◼   ► People do want to see movies.

00:38:52 ◼   ► To the credit of everybody in the movie industry,

00:38:54 ◼   ► people love watching movies.

00:38:56 ◼   ► They really do.

00:38:57 ◼   ► And there's a lot of money there.

00:38:58 ◼   ► There's a lot of people there.

00:38:59 ◼   ► There's a lot of interest there.

00:39:00 ◼   ► We see it with the Marvel movies and Star Wars.

00:39:02 ◼   ► And, you know, there are all sorts of things

00:39:04 ◼   ► that people like to see in these movies,

00:39:05 ◼   ► but people love to go to the movies.

00:39:07 ◼   ► Okay.

00:39:08 ◼   ► Or they love movies.

00:39:09 ◼   ► Let's say that.

00:39:10 ◼   ► People love movies.

00:39:11 ◼   ► Over time with home video,

00:39:13 ◼   ► things have just,

00:39:14 ◼   ► the window gets closer and closer and closer and closer

00:39:16 ◼   ► because people want to see that movie.

00:39:18 ◼   ► And the movie industry has kept

00:39:21 ◼   ► the exclusive theatrical window

00:39:23 ◼   ► because it lets them charge per person.

00:39:28 ◼   ► And they didn't have a great delivery mechanism anyway,

00:39:30 ◼   ► but it lets them charge per person at a fairly high rate.

00:39:33 ◼   ► And then the theaters are making money on the concessions

00:39:36 ◼   ► and things like that.

00:39:37 ◼   ► But even so, it just keeps getting smaller and smaller

00:39:41 ◼   ► because people want to see the movie

00:39:42 ◼   ► and the opportunity to let people see the movie

00:39:45 ◼   ► in other forms is greater and greater.

00:39:48 ◼   ► And now you have trained the audience

00:39:50 ◼   ► and COVID frankly has trained the audience

00:39:53 ◼   ► and modern flat screen TVs and sound bars.

00:39:57 ◼   ► And like, there's so many technologies

00:39:59 ◼   ► that have changed the balance

00:40:01 ◼   ► that what you've got is like a,

00:40:05 ◼   ► here in California, we have a lot of,

00:40:08 ◼   ► in a forest, we have this oak, sudden oak death

00:40:11 ◼   ► that kills the trees and the oak trees are standing,

00:40:13 ◼   ► but they're dead.

00:40:14 ◼   ► And then a windstorm or a fire blows through

00:40:17 ◼   ► and the fire just sets them all on fire

00:40:19 ◼   ► because they're already dead.

00:40:20 ◼   ► It's just dead wood ready to burn.

00:40:22 ◼   ► It's that moment,

00:40:23 ◼   ► or if you think about the radio telescope in Puerto Rico

00:40:27 ◼   ► that collapsed, like it was a slow collapse

00:40:29 ◼   ► and then it was all at once.

00:40:31 ◼   ► Like this is what the standard traditional theatrical

00:40:35 ◼   ► movie industry is right now,

00:40:37 ◼   ► is it was teetering and all of the prevailing winds

00:40:42 ◼   ► were pushing against it and then COVID happened.

00:40:47 ◼   ► And then you're Warner Media or even Disney

00:40:50 ◼   ► and you look at your streaming platform

00:40:52 ◼   ► that is the future of your company.

00:40:54 ◼   ► And they all say it.

00:40:56 ◼   ► Movie theaters are not the future of Disney.

00:40:59 ◼   ► They're not, they've said so.

00:41:00 ◼   ► Movie theaters are not the future of Disney.

00:41:02 ◼   ► Streaming is the future of Disney

00:41:03 ◼   ► and it may take time to get there,

00:41:04 ◼   ► but they've already said theaters are ancillary.

00:41:07 ◼   ► So they're not going to prioritize the thing

00:41:11 ◼   ► that's not the future.

00:41:12 ◼   ► So that's it.

00:41:14 ◼   ► It is the thing that probably didn't make

00:41:16 ◼   ► a lot of sense already,

00:41:18 ◼   ► but hung on because there was momentum

00:41:21 ◼   ► and nobody wants to be the person to change it.

00:41:24 ◼   ► And then a pandemic happens and that's it.

00:41:27 ◼   ► It's going to change.

00:41:29 ◼   ► So I can't predict what 2022 movie theaters

00:41:32 ◼   ► are gonna look like,

00:41:33 ◼   ► but the fact that we will have gotten

00:41:35 ◼   ► all of these releases from Warners

00:41:37 ◼   ► and some releases from Disney, right?

00:41:39 ◼   ► Soul will probably not be the last one

00:41:41 ◼   ► that will just pop on Disney Plus.

00:41:44 ◼   ► That is gonna change, that's gonna change things.

00:41:47 ◼   ► And let's not forget Netflix is spending

00:41:48 ◼   ► a lot of money on original films too.

00:41:52 ◼   ► And so many people have Netflix.

00:41:54 ◼   ► So that's actually, I think the strongest headwind

00:41:59 ◼   ► for the Warner Medias and Disney's of the world

00:42:02 ◼   ► is are they really competing over movie theater stuff

00:42:07 ◼   ► or are they competing with Netflix for attention?

00:42:11 ◼   ► So I don't know.

00:42:13 ◼   ► I'll tell you this though, I'll tell you this.

00:42:15 ◼   ► I am so looking forward to watching

00:42:16 ◼   ► Wonder Woman on Christmas day, right?

00:42:17 ◼   ► The bottom line as a movie fan

00:42:19 ◼   ► and somebody who liked the first Wonder Woman movie a lot,

00:42:22 ◼   ► like that's an event, that's our Christmas night.

00:42:25 ◼   ► I'm so excited about that because I like movies.

00:42:30 ◼   ► I just am not gonna go see one in a theater

00:42:32 ◼   ► and neither are you.

00:42:33 ◼   ► - Maybe you don't need two movies a year

00:42:38 ◼   ► that make a billion dollars if you have

00:42:39 ◼   ► a hundred million people giving you $5 a month.

00:42:43 ◼   ► Like I don't know the economics of it,

00:42:45 ◼   ► but if you can get enough people giving you money

00:42:49 ◼   ► every month rather than once or twice a year,

00:42:52 ◼   ► maybe it's enough, I don't know.

00:42:54 ◼   ► - I don't know.

00:42:55 ◼   ► - You've got to assume that they think it is.

00:42:56 ◼   ► If Disney is saying stuff like they have,

00:42:58 ◼   ► like the future is streaming,

00:43:00 ◼   ► they must assume that's the case.

00:43:02 ◼   ► Or maybe they wouldn't do it, we'll find out.

00:43:06 ◼   ► The one thing I do want to point in this

00:43:07 ◼   ► because I have to, there is obviously

00:43:09 ◼   ► no international story for HBO Max here

00:43:12 ◼   ► and all of these movies.

00:43:14 ◼   ► There is a rumor that Wonder Woman

00:43:15 ◼   ► may see a release on Sky TV here,

00:43:18 ◼   ► but if it does, it's either gonna be as part of Sky,

00:43:21 ◼   ► which is an incredibly high barrier to entry, right?

00:43:24 ◼   ► Like you're in, like it's basically cable, right?

00:43:28 ◼   ► And not everybody has a Sky.

00:43:30 ◼   ► Most people I think don't anymore have something like that

00:43:33 ◼   ► because there's so much streaming stuff now.

00:43:35 ◼   ► Or they may put it on a premium video on demand.

00:43:40 ◼   ► Maybe you can buy it yourself.

00:43:41 ◼   ► But I really, you know, I look at Disney's numbers,

00:43:46 ◼   ► like the tens of millions of subscribers,

00:43:50 ◼   ► and I know a lot of those are international

00:43:52 ◼   ► and I think that HBO need to work out what they're doing,

00:43:56 ◼   ► Warner need to work out what they're doing with this

00:43:58 ◼   ► because if you're trying to like, you know,

00:44:01 ◼   ► they have this American strategy of we take it

00:44:04 ◼   ► and we own it, but their international strategy

00:44:07 ◼   ► is like, oh, whoever, I guess.

00:44:09 ◼   ► And I don't think that those two things

00:44:11 ◼   ► match up in the long run.

00:44:12 ◼   ► - Yeah, we have been watching them for a while, right?

00:44:16 ◼   ► Like not, just struggle with having an international rollout

00:44:19 ◼   ► and this is a case where Netflix got there

00:44:22 ◼   ► and Apple is there and Disney is there.

00:44:27 ◼   ► Their strategy is interesting 'cause you have pointed out

00:44:31 ◼   ► a few times the hole in it, which is they're gonna do

00:44:34 ◼   ► theatrical release of these movies everywhere

00:44:37 ◼   ► where theaters are open.

00:44:39 ◼   ► And they've got HBO Max in the US, okay?

00:44:43 ◼   ► What about places where there aren't theaters open

00:44:45 ◼   ► or people don't wanna go to theaters

00:44:47 ◼   ► and there is no HBO Max, then what happens?

00:44:50 ◼   ► And the answer is, I guess it looks a lot like 2019

00:44:53 ◼   ► in that scenario where it's gonna come out in the UK,

00:44:56 ◼   ► if there are any cinemas open, you're not gonna go see it

00:44:59 ◼   ► and there's gonna be no alternative to that.

00:45:01 ◼   ► Maybe the window for purchasing it is 31 days, right?

00:45:04 ◼   ► So the 31 days later you can buy it or rent it

00:45:07 ◼   ► and that's a lot less than it used to be,

00:45:09 ◼   ► but you're not gonna be able to do it same day

00:45:12 ◼   ► because they don't have it.

00:45:13 ◼   ► And it's not your fault, right?

00:45:14 ◼   ► It's because they don't have an international strategy

00:45:16 ◼   ► for HBO Max, which they probably should have, right?

00:45:19 ◼   ► Like you probably should have that,

00:45:21 ◼   ► but they sold all of their international rights

00:45:24 ◼   ► for all of their content to so many different rights holders

00:45:26 ◼   ► that they can't put the pieces together yet.

00:45:30 ◼   ► - Wild.

00:45:31 ◼   ► All right, this episode is also brought to you

00:45:33 ◼   ► by our friends over at KiwiCo.

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00:45:38 ◼   ► including with the holiday season.

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00:48:20 ◼   ► and Relay FM.

00:48:21 ◼   ► So I sat down for the show today

00:48:26 ◼   ► and I wrote out a big topic based on an article

00:48:29 ◼   ► that you'd written over the weekend

00:48:31 ◼   ► about trying to guess the performance of the M2 chips.

00:48:36 ◼   ► So you've done one of your form with charts.

00:48:39 ◼   ► - Yeah, you know, something to write on a Friday afternoon.

00:48:42 ◼   ► - They're great.

00:48:43 ◼   ► - Essentially what that is.

00:48:44 ◼   ► - Trying to work out like, oh, what could the M2 be?

00:48:46 ◼   ► So I finished that.

00:48:48 ◼   ► I pressed stop on my timer.

00:48:51 ◼   ► I went over to Twitter.

00:48:52 ◼   ► I scrolled to the top of the timeline

00:48:54 ◼   ► and I saw a tweet from Mark Gurman talking about these chips.

00:48:58 ◼   ► I went back to the document, deleted all the stuff,

00:49:01 ◼   ► started again.

00:49:01 ◼   ► - Friend of the show, Mark Gurman once again

00:49:03 ◼   ► released a big report right before upgrade.

00:49:05 ◼   ► Thank you, Mark.

00:49:06 ◼   ► - If Mark's gonna do it,

00:49:07 ◼   ► I prefer it to be done the exact time that he's doing it

00:49:10 ◼   ► because if he did it afterwards, it would be way worse.

00:49:13 ◼   ► I don't mind spending the time working on the notes

00:49:16 ◼   ► and then going back to it

00:49:17 ◼   ► if I then get a report as juicy as this one.

00:49:21 ◼   ► I am going to read some quotes

00:49:23 ◼   ► and we can stop and talk about them all

00:49:25 ◼   ► because this is a very focused report, but very good one.

00:49:30 ◼   ► So lots of interesting information

00:49:32 ◼   ► and it comes from Mark Gurman and Ian King

00:49:34 ◼   ► talking about a new series of chips

00:49:36 ◼   ► that could be introduced in 2021.

00:49:38 ◼   ► Several successes to the M1 are being developed

00:49:42 ◼   ► that quote, "If they live up to expectations,

00:49:45 ◼   ► they will significantly outpace the performance

00:49:47 ◼   ► of the latest machines running Intel chips."

00:49:50 ◼   ► Now this we expected, right?

00:49:52 ◼   ► This is what we've been expecting,

00:49:54 ◼   ► that everything that Apple introduces,

00:49:56 ◼   ► now that we've seen what the M1 can do

00:49:58 ◼   ► should beat whatever it's replacing.

00:50:00 ◼   ► - Hold everything, hold everything, people.

00:50:03 ◼   ► It turns out Apple's not gonna just make the M1

00:50:05 ◼   ► and then never make another processor.

00:50:07 ◼   ► - Wait, what?

00:50:08 ◼   ► I thought that they only made phone chips.

00:50:11 ◼   ► - No, no, it's true.

00:50:12 ◼   ► They're gonna make several successors to the M1.

00:50:14 ◼   ► They're gonna keep making chips

00:50:16 ◼   ► and they'll be better than the M1.

00:50:20 ◼   ► - The company's next series of chips plan for release

00:50:24 ◼   ► as early as the spring and later in the fall

00:50:26 ◼   ► are destined to be placed across upgraded versions

00:50:30 ◼   ► of the MacBook Pro, both entry-level

00:50:32 ◼   ► and high-end iMac desktops and a later new Mac Pro workstation.

00:50:37 ◼   ► All of this we kind of had expected,

00:50:41 ◼   ► but that timeline seems more aggressive.

00:50:43 ◼   ► - It's interesting as early as the spring

00:50:46 ◼   ► and later in the fall, the fact here seems to be

00:50:51 ◼   ► Apple has two waves of these

00:50:52 ◼   ► that Mark is able to report about,

00:50:55 ◼   ► that somebody was willing to pass on that information,

00:50:58 ◼   ► two waves, because like, again, as early as the spring,

00:51:01 ◼   ► it might not be the spring.

00:51:02 ◼   ► It might be the summer, it might be the fall.

00:51:03 ◼   ► And later in the fall, might be later in the fall

00:51:06 ◼   ► or it might be 2022, right?

00:51:07 ◼   ► They have to make some product decisions

00:51:08 ◼   ► and things slide around.

00:51:09 ◼   ► But what he is saying here is that there are two sets

00:51:14 ◼   ► that are being targeted.

00:51:16 ◼   ► This is not just sort of like a next year's model,

00:51:19 ◼   ► but it's like a couple of models

00:51:20 ◼   ► that might happen next year, which is interesting.

00:51:23 ◼   ► The fact that they mentioned a Mac Pro later,

00:51:26 ◼   ► whatever that means, as well as MacBook Pro and iMac,

00:51:30 ◼   ► interesting, I have thought for a while now

00:51:32 ◼   ► that while Apple said that they were doing

00:51:34 ◼   ► a two-year transition, it wouldn't surprise me

00:51:36 ◼   ► if they finished by the end of 2021,

00:51:38 ◼   ► just so they could say, "Oh yeah, we're done."

00:51:41 ◼   ► And were being conservative when they gave themselves

00:51:44 ◼   ► two years to make the transition.

00:51:46 ◼   ► Would not surprise me at all, they've done it before.

00:51:48 ◼   ► - Well, I also, to add to that,

00:51:51 ◼   ► I've been thinking about this too,

00:51:53 ◼   ► they announced that it would be a two-year transition

00:51:56 ◼   ► in June of this year, when Apple will also do that.

00:52:00 ◼   ► - No, no, no, like I was gonna say-

00:52:00 ◼   ► - They said when we start it in the fall,

00:52:03 ◼   ► it will be a two-year transition.

00:52:05 ◼   ► - What I mean is, I've mis-said that,

00:52:08 ◼   ► you thought I was making a different point.

00:52:09 ◼   ► In June of this year, there were lots and lots of issues

00:52:13 ◼   ► around producing anything, and nobody knew

00:52:16 ◼   ► how long it was going to take

00:52:18 ◼   ► for product production to stabilize.

00:52:21 ◼   ► - So even more reason for them to be conservative

00:52:23 ◼   ► with their claims.

00:52:23 ◼   ► - They may have given themselves a little bit extra time

00:52:26 ◼   ► in case that they felt that there were gonna be

00:52:29 ◼   ► more significant issues around product manufacture

00:52:32 ◼   ► over that 24-month period or whatever.

00:52:35 ◼   ► - And maybe they feel better about it now.

00:52:38 ◼   ► Also, presumably they're getting samples of stuff

00:52:40 ◼   ► from Taiwan Semiconductor, and they've seen how the process

00:52:43 ◼   ► of the M1 being built at scale is going,

00:52:46 ◼   ► and they've gained confidence there.

00:52:47 ◼   ► Although I do wanna point out again,

00:52:49 ◼   ► Mark's report definitely is saying

00:52:53 ◼   ► this is what they're thinking, but Apple could make,

00:52:57 ◼   ► Apple is still waiting and seeing in their decisions

00:52:59 ◼   ► they could make, and these things get delayed.

00:53:01 ◼   ► And people always roll their eyes at that and say,

00:53:02 ◼   ► well, he's hedging, but it's like, well, no,

00:53:04 ◼   ► the future is unknown until it happens.

00:53:07 ◼   ► This is, what he's reporting is what is currently

00:53:11 ◼   ► the thinking within Apple, right?

00:53:13 ◼   ► Which is not a prediction, it's what they're shooting for,

00:53:17 ◼   ► what they think they might be able to achieve,

00:53:19 ◼   ► and they may change their mind,

00:53:21 ◼   ► or something may happen, exactly right, yeah.

00:53:23 ◼   ► But here's this next part, I feel so vindicated

00:53:27 ◼   ► in this part.

00:53:28 ◼   ► The next two lines of Apple chips are also planned

00:53:31 ◼   ► to be more ambitious than some industry watches

00:53:34 ◼   ► expected for next year.

00:53:35 ◼   ► For its next generation chip targeting MacBook Pro

00:53:38 ◼   ► and iMac models, Apple is working on designs

00:53:41 ◼   ► of as many as 16 power cores and four efficiency cores.

00:53:45 ◼   ► So that's 20 core, 20 core chips, 20, 20 in the MacBook Pro.

00:53:50 ◼   ► While that component is in development,

00:53:53 ◼   ► Apple could choose to first release variations

00:53:56 ◼   ► of only eight or 12 of the high performance cores

00:53:59 ◼   ► enabled depending on production.

00:54:01 ◼   ► So this is binning.

00:54:01 ◼   ► - Enabled, that's binning, yeah, that's right.

00:54:03 ◼   ► The idea that they may have an M1X or an M2

00:54:07 ◼   ► that they're targeting 16 PCORs, right?

00:54:12 ◼   ► That's what they call them.

00:54:12 ◼   ► Apparently we discovered that. - PCORs and ECORs.

00:54:14 ◼   ► Well, upgrade and snow this.

00:54:16 ◼   ► - Like 4e cores is sort of the standard,

00:54:17 ◼   ► which is that, I feel like the 4e cores thing,

00:54:21 ◼   ► they have modeled what like boring average usage is

00:54:26 ◼   ► and are very confident that the 4e cores can do all of that,

00:54:30 ◼   ► like low level stuff.

00:54:32 ◼   ► And then the PCORs jump in when you need,

00:54:35 ◼   ► you know, when you're doing a job.

00:54:37 ◼   ► - It seems like now she's saying that Apple have worked out

00:54:40 ◼   ► that there is a maximum amount of tasks

00:54:43 ◼   ► that would ever be needed on a ECORs.

00:54:46 ◼   ► And they're just, as you said,

00:54:47 ◼   ► they've just optimized for those four and that's that.

00:54:50 ◼   ► - And maybe in the future it will increase,

00:54:52 ◼   ► but if it does, it will be like, they all get six now.

00:54:55 ◼   ► So like it's unlikely that different machines

00:54:58 ◼   ► will get more ECORs than others is how it seems.

00:55:01 ◼   ► - In doing my silly chart spreadsheets and stuff,

00:55:05 ◼   ► what I found is performance scales with PCORs.

00:55:09 ◼   ► 'Cause remember the Intel just has cores.

00:55:13 ◼   ► And so I was doing for iOS, I was like looking at like,

00:55:16 ◼   ► do I add the, if I'm trying to get like a Geekbench score

00:55:20 ◼   ► per core, how does that make sense?

00:55:23 ◼   ► And what I found was it makes most sense

00:55:25 ◼   ► if you just ignore the efficiency cores and you just,

00:55:28 ◼   ► the power cores are where the scale comes from.

00:55:31 ◼   ► And this bears that out, which is,

00:55:34 ◼   ► there's a base model of performance

00:55:36 ◼   ► that they want to run efficiently.

00:55:37 ◼   ► That's the thing that runs when you're sitting idle.

00:55:39 ◼   ► It runs when you're just typing an email.

00:55:41 ◼   ► It's what happens when the lid is shut on your laptop

00:55:45 ◼   ► and it's just doing some things in the background.

00:55:47 ◼   ► Like it's all that stuff is handled by the efficiency core

00:55:51 ◼   ► and it's the equivalent of a MacBook Air,

00:55:54 ◼   ► an Intel MacBook Air, right?

00:55:55 ◼   ► Like they said, and then you lay on the power cores

00:55:59 ◼   ► and that's to do everything else.

00:56:00 ◼   ► And when you get to work,

00:56:02 ◼   ► and so it is interesting to see them say,

00:56:05 ◼   ► well, what we're gonna do is design a variant of this chip

00:56:07 ◼   ► that's got, instead of four or eight,

00:56:10 ◼   ► it'll have 16 power cores.

00:56:15 ◼   ► And then they could bin it

00:56:18 ◼   ► depending on the yields that they get.

00:56:20 ◼   ► So they might come out with like an eight or 12

00:56:22 ◼   ► and that would also allow for that,

00:56:24 ◼   ► like configured order experience where you've,

00:56:29 ◼   ► in the end, what they're gonna do is say,

00:56:32 ◼   ► new iMac or new 16 inch MacBook Pro,

00:56:36 ◼   ► and you can, you know, it comes with eight cores,

00:56:39 ◼   ► but you can get 12 or 16 if you pay extra.

00:56:42 ◼   ► And that's a perfectly kind of understandable

00:56:45 ◼   ► computer buying kind of thing.

00:56:47 ◼   ► Nothing in the story about how they are gonna handle

00:56:50 ◼   ► memory configurations, which is one of these things

00:56:52 ◼   ► that everybody keeps asking about,

00:56:54 ◼   ► but just imagine a 16 core plus the four efficiency cores,

00:56:59 ◼   ► so 20 core MacBook Pro, like you said, or iMac.

00:57:03 ◼   ► - So when I said I felt vindicated,

00:57:05 ◼   ► it's in that there have been many people in this arena

00:57:12 ◼   ► who care about technology and Apple who have just been like,

00:57:15 ◼   ► these are just iPhone chips and these are just,

00:57:18 ◼   ► this is just what Apple's gonna do,

00:57:19 ◼   ► they make iPhone chips now.

00:57:21 ◼   ► And one of the things that we've been talking about

00:57:23 ◼   ► and I've been saying, like my feeling on this is just like,

00:57:25 ◼   ► all that is similar about them is kind of how they look,

00:57:29 ◼   ► but what Apple is doing is completely different.

00:57:33 ◼   ► And I think at the point, I mean,

00:57:34 ◼   ► we haven't even got to the rest of the story,

00:57:36 ◼   ► but at the point that like here is a 20 core chip,

00:57:40 ◼   ► it's like, all right, we have to all agree now

00:57:42 ◼   ► that these aren't iPhone chips, right?

00:57:44 ◼   ► It's just, this is the way Apple knows

00:57:46 ◼   ► how to make their own chips.

00:57:48 ◼   ► So in theory, they look similar, but I do not believe,

00:57:52 ◼   ► and I have never thought that what is the M1 is an A14X.

00:57:57 ◼   ► Like, I don't think that that's how they think of it.

00:57:59 ◼   ► I just do not believe, I've never thought that,

00:58:02 ◼   ► but it's just, they look like they would be similar.

00:58:04 ◼   ► And I'm sure that if an A14X comes out

00:58:07 ◼   ► and it will look similar,

00:58:09 ◼   ► but I don't think that Apple has ever considered them

00:58:11 ◼   ► that way, and I think when we're seeing this kind of stuff,

00:58:14 ◼   ► we can see that they don't.

00:58:15 ◼   ► So.

00:58:16 ◼   ► - Everything they're doing to evolve, right?

00:58:19 ◼   ► Like the M1 is not just an A14X

00:58:22 ◼   ► that's capable of running macOS.

00:58:24 ◼   ► It's also the start of like, it's the base camp

00:58:29 ◼   ► for whatever they're going to do from there

00:58:31 ◼   ► on the Mac side, right?

00:58:32 ◼   ► So presumably they have strategized in building it.

00:58:35 ◼   ► They know where it's going from there and it's going up.

00:58:39 ◼   ► - And now we've seen this chip

00:58:40 ◼   ► and we see what the future looks like.

00:58:42 ◼   ► I think the reason that it looks like an iPhone chip

00:58:45 ◼   ► is that they just, so this is all that they needed.

00:58:47 ◼   ► Look how powerful these machines are.

00:58:49 ◼   ► They didn't need more than that, right?

00:58:51 ◼   ► If anything, they put too much in there.

00:58:53 ◼   ► - I'm sure in the many times,

00:58:55 ◼   ► somebody sent a link about us talking about our Macs

00:58:57 ◼   ► in like episode 100 or something of this show,

00:58:59 ◼   ► which is like, it's been a long time

00:59:01 ◼   ► we've been talking about them.

00:59:02 ◼   ► But like the, I think the assumption all along

00:59:04 ◼   ► was that they were essentially going to be able

00:59:05 ◼   ► to take something that was like a glorified iPad chip

00:59:08 ◼   ► and put it in Macs and it would be an incredibly fast,

00:59:11 ◼   ► low-end Mac.

00:59:12 ◼   ► It would be incredibly fast,

00:59:14 ◼   ► much faster than your MacBook Air,

00:59:18 ◼   ► you know, or Mac Mini would be.

00:59:20 ◼   ► And although, yes, the M1 is not an A14X,

00:59:25 ◼   ► but it is potentially in terms of performance and profile,

00:59:28 ◼   ► kind of a glorified iPad chip.

00:59:30 ◼   ► It is the first step.

00:59:31 ◼   ► It is a logical first step.

00:59:32 ◼   ► They're not going to jump to the 20 core monster.

00:59:35 ◼   ► They're going to start with the simplest thing.

00:59:36 ◼   ► It's they're dipping their toe in the water of Mac chips.

00:59:41 ◼   ► And it's exactly that.

00:59:43 ◼   ► It is exactly that.

00:59:44 ◼   ► It is not that different from what they've done before

00:59:46 ◼   ► 'cause you got to start somewhere.

00:59:49 ◼   ► But they know where they're going from here.

00:59:51 ◼   ► And that's what this "Gurman" story is about.

00:59:53 ◼   ► Like this is the most modest.

00:59:57 ◼   ► That's the thing when I see people

00:59:59 ◼   ► who are generally PC industry skeptics

01:00:02 ◼   ► who don't think that Apple's all that

01:00:05 ◼   ► and look at what is going on on the Windows side.

01:00:08 ◼   ► When I see them criticize it,

01:00:09 ◼   ► it's very funny that a lot of times

01:00:11 ◼   ► the fact that this is a low end processor

01:00:13 ◼   ► on low end computers gets lost because, you know,

01:00:16 ◼   ► but what about the high end?

01:00:17 ◼   ► It's like, well, yeah, this isn't that.

01:00:20 ◼   ► This is the low end.

01:00:21 ◼   ► Now we're starting to get a sense

01:00:24 ◼   ► of what Apple's playbook is from here.

01:00:26 ◼   ► - That playbook keeps getting bigger.

01:00:29 ◼   ► So look, we need to just point it out again.

01:00:32 ◼   ► 20 core, 20 core processors in laptops.

01:00:36 ◼   ► - I wonder when we start ignoring the efficiency cores

01:00:39 ◼   ► and just talk about the performance cores.

01:00:41 ◼   ► - The power cores, the PCores, some point.

01:00:44 ◼   ► But like that is absurd.

01:00:46 ◼   ► - Yeah.

01:00:47 ◼   ► - For higher end desktops planned for later in 2021

01:00:51 ◼   ► and a new half-sized Mac Pro planned to launch by 2022,

01:00:55 ◼   ► this is Mark doubling down on this now.

01:00:57 ◼   ► So let's, we can all assume that this is going to happen.

01:01:00 ◼   ► Apple is testing a chip design

01:01:02 ◼   ► of as many as 32 high performance cores.

01:01:06 ◼   ► That would probably mean maybe 36.

01:01:08 ◼   ► Maybe this machine doesn't even get them.

01:01:09 ◼   ► Who knows? I doubt that.

01:01:10 ◼   ► But let's say, let's just assume a 36 core machine.

01:01:15 ◼   ► 36 core.

01:01:16 ◼   ► - Yeah.

01:01:18 ◼   ► - Now, higher end desktop computers,

01:01:21 ◼   ► we can assume that this would be the highest end iMac, right?

01:01:26 ◼   ► - Yeah, I imagine, right, higher end desktop computers,

01:01:29 ◼   ► that is whether we call it an iMac Pro

01:01:30 ◼   ► or just a very high end iMac.

01:01:32 ◼   ► That's what that is, right?

01:01:33 ◼   ► - Maybe Mac Mini, maybe, right?

01:01:36 ◼   ► - Maybe.

01:01:37 ◼   ► - Maybe.

01:01:38 ◼   ► - Maybe.

01:01:38 ◼   ► - But we would assume-

01:01:39 ◼   ► - You gotta earn the space gray.

01:01:40 ◼   ► You gotta earn that space gray.

01:01:41 ◼   ► - Because he says, "And A."

01:01:43 ◼   ► So that, you know, it's like, so there's,

01:01:45 ◼   ► and this half-sized Mac Pro,

01:01:47 ◼   ► I'm really puzzled about this.

01:01:52 ◼   ► Like, is this the Mac Pro now?

01:01:57 ◼   ► Or is it a new Mac Pro alongside the other one?

01:02:01 ◼   ► We don't know that, right?

01:02:03 ◼   ► But it seems like there's something going on there,

01:02:05 ◼   ► which is really interesting.

01:02:07 ◼   ► But that is, that's massive, right?

01:02:12 ◼   ► 32 high performance cores.

01:02:15 ◼   ► It's a lot of cores, Jason.

01:02:16 ◼   ► I don't know if you, I don't know if you know.

01:02:19 ◼   ► 'Cause like, what are we, like, what's the top?

01:02:21 ◼   ► 10, 12 for the Mac Pro right now?

01:02:25 ◼   ► Is that as high up as it goes at the moment?

01:02:27 ◼   ► - Oh no, Mac Pro goes way up.

01:02:29 ◼   ► - Oh, okay.

01:02:30 ◼   ► Okay.

01:02:31 ◼   ► I know that the iMac Pro is 10, right?

01:02:35 ◼   ► Or is that-

01:02:36 ◼   ► - The base model.

01:02:36 ◼   ► The base model is 10.

01:02:38 ◼   ► They all go way far up above that.

01:02:40 ◼   ► - They're saying 28 in the chat at the moment,

01:02:44 ◼   ► which is where it goes.

01:02:44 ◼   ► So, you know, this is more cores.

01:02:46 ◼   ► Apple engineers are also developing

01:02:49 ◼   ► more ambitious graphics processes.

01:02:51 ◼   ► Today's M1 processors are offered

01:02:53 ◼   ► of a custom Apple graphics engine

01:02:56 ◼   ► that comes in seven or eight core variations.

01:02:59 ◼   ► For its future high-end laptops and mid-range desktops,

01:03:02 ◼   ► Apple is testing 16 and 32 core graphics parts.

01:03:07 ◼   ► - Yeah.

01:03:10 ◼   ► I mean, again, not surprising.

01:03:11 ◼   ► So what we're saying is that for a higher end MacBook Pro

01:03:15 ◼   ► and for the iMac, you're not gonna get

01:03:17 ◼   ► what you have with the M1,

01:03:19 ◼   ► where you've got a smaller number of cores

01:03:24 ◼   ► and seven or eight GPU cores.

01:03:27 ◼   ► Instead, you're gonna get a system with,

01:03:30 ◼   ► let's say, eight performance cores

01:03:34 ◼   ► and 16 graphics cores on that processor

01:03:38 ◼   ► as the base model, something like that.

01:03:40 ◼   ► And that would make it a MacBook Pro, right?

01:03:41 ◼   ► Or an iMac.

01:03:42 ◼   ► That would make sense.

01:03:43 ◼   ► And then you've got your configure to order options

01:03:44 ◼   ► where you go up to 32 cores

01:03:47 ◼   ► or 16 performance cores and all of that.

01:03:54 ◼   ► It's fun to see Mark Gurman report this

01:03:56 ◼   ► because he's reporting this with information

01:03:58 ◼   ► from people on the inside,

01:04:00 ◼   ► but it's also kind of something that follows logically.

01:04:02 ◼   ► This is, of course, this is the kind of thing

01:04:05 ◼   ► that you would do.

01:04:06 ◼   ► It also does inform a little bit Apple's strategy

01:04:09 ◼   ► with the M series processor,

01:04:12 ◼   ► which seems to be more cores, right?

01:04:16 ◼   ► - That's what the M stands for.

01:04:18 ◼   ► - More cores, more CPU cores, more graphics cores,

01:04:21 ◼   ► probably more neural engine cores, just more cores.

01:04:24 ◼   ► Just add more cores.

01:04:26 ◼   ► And they must feel very confident about the ability

01:04:29 ◼   ► for their architecture to scale with that many cores.

01:04:31 ◼   ► Like 32 cores of graphics, 32 high-performance CPU cores.

01:04:36 ◼   ► That's a lot, right?

01:04:37 ◼   ► But they are testing it.

01:04:40 ◼   ► So I think they've proven that they know what they're doing,

01:04:44 ◼   ► but this is another level from what they've done up to now.

01:04:48 ◼   ► - I'm not done.

01:04:50 ◼   ► - For later in 2021, or potentially 2022,

01:04:54 ◼   ► Apple is working on pricier graphics upgrades

01:04:58 ◼   ► with 64 and 128 dedicated cores

01:05:02 ◼   ► aimed at its highest-end machines, the people said.

01:05:05 ◼   ► Those graphics chips would be several times faster

01:05:08 ◼   ► than the current graphics modules Apple uses

01:05:11 ◼   ► from NVIDIA and AMD in its Intel-powered hardware.

01:05:17 ◼   ► There is a possibility that you would be able to get

01:05:21 ◼   ► this little baby Mac Pro with a 36-core processor

01:05:26 ◼   ► and a 128-core GPU.

01:05:34 ◼   ► How big is that system on a chip?

01:05:37 ◼   ► Do they wheel it in for you, right?

01:05:40 ◼   ► I don't know enough about this.

01:05:46 ◼   ► I hear ATP talk about it, but could that all be on one chip?

01:05:51 ◼   ► All of that?

01:05:53 ◼   ► 'Cause it's not clear to me,

01:05:57 ◼   ► the way that I read in Mark's article,

01:06:02 ◼   ► as to whether Apple is working on integrated

01:06:07 ◼   ► or discrete graphics here.

01:06:08 ◼   ► Now, I know that there have been previous articles

01:06:12 ◼   ► that reference discrete graphics cards,

01:06:15 ◼   ► so separate graphics chips from Apple,

01:06:19 ◼   ► and maybe the 64 and 128-core GPUs

01:06:23 ◼   ► would be like separate chips

01:06:27 ◼   ► that maybe you could upgrade in the Mac Pro anyway,

01:06:30 ◼   ► which might make sense.

01:06:31 ◼   ► But nevertheless, that is just an unbelievable offering.

01:06:36 ◼   ► Like, within the next two years, the next 18 months,

01:06:45 ◼   ► this is what we could be looking at.

01:06:47 ◼   ► - Well, it shows you their ambition, right?

01:06:50 ◼   ► Like, if they can pull this off,

01:06:53 ◼   ► what they're gonna get is the performance boost

01:06:57 ◼   ► that we've seen in the low end across the line.

01:07:01 ◼   ► And by that, I mean, one way this plays out

01:07:05 ◼   ► is that the other products in the Mac product line

01:07:08 ◼   ► get slightly upgraded M1 kind of stuff.

01:07:11 ◼   ► And the M1 MacBook Air is so many times faster

01:07:16 ◼   ► than the previous model,

01:07:17 ◼   ► but by the time you get up to the high end, they're not.

01:07:20 ◼   ► They're like in the ballpark or a little bit faster.

01:07:23 ◼   ► That's the sort of really gentle approach to transition.

01:07:28 ◼   ► A more aggressive approach is to say,

01:07:30 ◼   ► no, every time we upgrade a model,

01:07:32 ◼   ► we're gonna do our take on the chip

01:07:33 ◼   ► that should be in that model,

01:07:34 ◼   ► and it's gonna be more aggressive,

01:07:36 ◼   ► and every one of these is gonna be that much faster.

01:07:38 ◼   ► The Mac Pro, at each core level,

01:07:40 ◼   ► it's going to be, at each price level,

01:07:42 ◼   ► is going to be this much faster than the Intel Mac Pro.

01:07:47 ◼   ► And that seems to be what this report is suggesting,

01:07:50 ◼   ► is that's at least what they're shooting for.

01:07:52 ◼   ► I'm also, again, really intrigued by the fact

01:07:55 ◼   ► that it looks like we've got a couple of waves,

01:07:57 ◼   ► because that kind of makes sense, and I like that idea.

01:08:00 ◼   ► So they're working on,

01:08:02 ◼   ► step two is desktops and high-end laptops,

01:08:05 ◼   ► and then step three is super high-end Pro models.

01:08:08 ◼   ► And that's gonna be their approach.

01:08:10 ◼   ► And maybe we'll see those super high-end Pro models

01:08:13 ◼   ► by the end of next year,

01:08:14 ◼   ► or maybe, as he says, potentially 2022.

01:08:18 ◼   ► But in the interim,

01:08:20 ◼   ► we are also gonna be talking about new iMacs

01:08:23 ◼   ► and new MacBook Pros that have this more powerful CPU

01:08:28 ◼   ► and graphics processor than what's on the M1.

01:08:31 ◼   ► And that's logical.

01:08:33 ◼   ► That's why they didn't update those systems with the M1,

01:08:35 ◼   ► because they need something more than the M1 can provide.

01:08:39 ◼   ► But yeah, again, Xeon, you can spend a lot of money

01:08:44 ◼   ► and get a 28-core Mac Pro,

01:08:47 ◼   ► but 32 high-performance Apple-designed cores

01:08:51 ◼   ► in a little half-height Mac Pro is a fascinating thing.

01:08:55 ◼   ► And I still wonder about expansion

01:08:57 ◼   ► and what that expansion looks like.

01:08:58 ◼   ► And there are a lot of open questions there

01:09:00 ◼   ► for that product.

01:09:01 ◼   ► But let's be honest,

01:09:03 ◼   ► not very many people will buy a Mac Pro, whatever it is.

01:09:05 ◼   ► It is an edge case kind of product.

01:09:08 ◼   ► I'm more interested in what happens with the iMac

01:09:11 ◼   ► and the Mac mini and the high-end MacBook Pro.

01:09:13 ◼   ► - What it looks like is a lot.

01:09:17 ◼   ► A lot's gonna happen.

01:09:19 ◼   ► I don't know exactly what I expected,

01:09:24 ◼   ► but I feel like these numbers have surprised me.

01:09:31 ◼   ► I can think, so the ones that surprised me the most

01:09:35 ◼   ► are the amount of cores in a MacBook Pro,

01:09:39 ◼   ► 20 cores in a laptop seems like a lot,

01:09:41 ◼   ► and I think the graphics stuff.

01:09:46 ◼   ► And I did wanna mention something that Mark points out

01:09:49 ◼   ► in the article is that these are so much faster

01:09:52 ◼   ► than the chips that Apple uses from Nvidia and AMD.

01:09:56 ◼   ► I think it's worth just noting

01:09:57 ◼   ► that the chips that Apple uses from Nvidia and AMD

01:10:00 ◼   ► are significantly slower than the PC stuff,

01:10:04 ◼   ► like the dedicated graphics cards.

01:10:06 ◼   ► The things that Apple chooses to integrate and use

01:10:09 ◼   ► they're not that great.

01:10:13 ◼   ► So it's just like, I think people see that

01:10:15 ◼   ► and they think that Apple's chips are gonna be faster

01:10:19 ◼   ► than these 38s I keep hearing people talk about.

01:10:22 ◼   ► It's complicated the way that the architecture is

01:10:26 ◼   ► for these chips, but like the Nvidia 38e,

01:10:32 ◼   ► Nvidia say it has thousands of cores.

01:10:34 ◼   ► So it's a different,

01:10:37 ◼   ► they look at these things very differently,

01:10:40 ◼   ► but this is also saying that Apple are kind of playing

01:10:45 ◼   ► their own interesting game here,

01:10:47 ◼   ► and there's not like an obscene amount of cores

01:10:52 ◼   ► in my MacBook Pro, but it is significantly faster

01:10:57 ◼   ► than anything with the same core count.

01:11:00 ◼   ► So, there's a lot at play here,

01:11:03 ◼   ► but what is just worth noting is we can all assume

01:11:07 ◼   ► Apple can produce more powerful graphics units and chips

01:11:12 ◼   ► than what they are currently using.

01:11:15 ◼   ► Even if they could extend up to what is available

01:11:21 ◼   ► in PC architecture and more,

01:11:24 ◼   ► there still has to be stuff to take advantage of that.

01:11:27 ◼   ► And like really powerful graphics tends to mean great games,

01:11:32 ◼   ► but it isn't just graphics that brings games.

01:11:37 ◼   ► That there's a lot in between, right?

01:11:39 ◼   ► Like market and development tools.

01:11:43 ◼   ► And it has been long known that that is not really there

01:11:47 ◼   ► for the Mac for these big AAA games.

01:11:51 ◼   ► Now, if the hardware is that impressive

01:11:54 ◼   ► or ends up being so impressive,

01:11:56 ◼   ► maybe that changes the gaming story on the Mac a little bit,

01:11:59 ◼   ► but I don't think so.

01:12:01 ◼   ► Ultimately, I think the graphic stuff for the Mac

01:12:04 ◼   ► is about creative software and how that is used, right?

01:12:09 ◼   ► So like how can better graphics provide a better experience

01:12:13 ◼   ► for video editors, all that kind of stuff, you know?

01:12:16 ◼   ► I don't think that we're gonna see, you know, Fortnite,

01:12:21 ◼   ► not Fortnite, obviously Fortnite's already been on the Mac,

01:12:25 ◼   ► but say like Cyberpunk, right?

01:12:26 ◼   ► Which is the game that everyone's excited about,

01:12:28 ◼   ► but it seems like it might be disappointing.

01:12:30 ◼   ► These are the types of games that people wait for

01:12:33 ◼   ► for their consoles and the PC,

01:12:34 ◼   ► but they don't have a place on the Mac.

01:12:37 ◼   ► And I don't necessarily think that these chips

01:12:39 ◼   ► would result in that.

01:12:41 ◼   ► But it's just like an addendum that I wanna make

01:12:43 ◼   ► to people that maybe don't pay as much attention

01:12:46 ◼   ► to this kind of stuff.

01:12:47 ◼   ► But overall, this isn't, I am so excited.

01:12:52 ◼   ► This report, I felt like my brain just kept exploding

01:12:56 ◼   ► the more I read of it.

01:12:58 ◼   ► Like it really, I'm super excited about this,

01:13:02 ◼   ► super, super excited about this.

01:13:03 ◼   ► - Yeah, yeah, again, it's exciting because it shows

01:13:09 ◼   ► Apple's level of ambition here.

01:13:11 ◼   ► And I think what you see in Mark Gurman's hedging

01:13:15 ◼   ► is internally, you know, not entirely being confident

01:13:20 ◼   ► that they're gonna get it all in 2021,

01:13:22 ◼   ► that there may be issues.

01:13:23 ◼   ► They are new to this on the Mac side,

01:13:26 ◼   ► and they could face challenges,

01:13:30 ◼   ► but it sounds like they're being very ambitious

01:13:33 ◼   ► and that they've got a game plan

01:13:34 ◼   ► and it involves a couple of waves of processors,

01:13:37 ◼   ► high-end laptops/desktop systems,

01:13:40 ◼   ► and then a super high-end system,

01:13:43 ◼   ► and maybe a binning approach to providing

01:13:47 ◼   ► some different levels of performance.

01:13:49 ◼   ► And you pay to get the extra cores for the GPUs and the CPUs.

01:13:54 ◼   ► And it's all logical.

01:13:55 ◼   ► I mean, that's the thing about it is it's exciting,

01:13:57 ◼   ► but also it makes sense.

01:13:58 ◼   ► Like I get that this would be their strategy.

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01:16:18 ◼   ► and all of Relay FM.

01:16:20 ◼   ► Let's do some #AskUpgrade questions.

01:16:25 ◼   ► Ryan wants to know what orientation or size of keyboard

01:16:29 ◼   ► do you use on your phone?

01:16:31 ◼   ► Do you go full size, squish to the left

01:16:34 ◼   ► or squish to the right?

01:16:35 ◼   ► - Full size.

01:16:38 ◼   ► - Man, me too.

01:16:39 ◼   ► - Full size.

01:16:40 ◼   ► - Don't forget that the squished thing is a thing you can do.

01:16:43 ◼   ► I can see why people that use the phone that I use

01:16:46 ◼   ► might wanna do the squish to one side thing.

01:16:48 ◼   ► - Probably not a great option on an iPhone 12 mini.

01:16:51 ◼   ► - Probably not necessary for most people.

01:16:54 ◼   ► But even though I do full size,

01:16:57 ◼   ► I am pretty much always a swipe typer.

01:17:00 ◼   ► I do the swipe typing, love me the swipe typing.

01:17:03 ◼   ► - I mostly still tap, but I do swipe occasionally.

01:17:08 ◼   ► John wants to know, Jason Snell,

01:17:11 ◼   ► how come 20 max for 2020 is not an incomparable podcast?

01:17:15 ◼   ► - This is the same version of a question

01:17:17 ◼   ► we've answered a bunch of times before,

01:17:18 ◼   ► which is the incomparable is a kind of popular culture

01:17:20 ◼   ► and entertainment network and Relay FM

01:17:22 ◼   ► is a technology network.

01:17:23 ◼   ► And so a tech podcast goes on Relay FM

01:17:26 ◼   ► and 20 max for 2020 is a tech podcast.

01:17:29 ◼   ► So that's the answer.

01:17:31 ◼   ► - I mostly just wanted to include this as a opportunity

01:17:34 ◼   ► for you to tell people that they should go

01:17:36 ◼   ► and listen to 20 max for 2020.

01:17:38 ◼   ► - Well, thank you, Myke Hurley.

01:17:39 ◼   ► That's a great suggestion.

01:17:40 ◼   ► People should listen to 20 max for 2020.

01:17:41 ◼   ► It's available for everyone for free.

01:17:43 ◼   ► It comes out on Fridays, relay.fm/20max, I wanna say.

01:17:48 ◼   ► And if you're an upgrade member or a Six Colors member,

01:17:53 ◼   ► you can access your member page

01:17:56 ◼   ► and get the members only feed that comes out on Monday,

01:17:59 ◼   ► the same time that the essay and the video

01:18:01 ◼   ► with me and Steven Hackett come out.

01:18:03 ◼   ► So this week's selection is the MacBook Air.

01:18:08 ◼   ► - I don't wanna tip my hand.

01:18:11 ◼   ► And I definitely don't want to unfairly encourage

01:18:14 ◼   ► the upgrade-ians when it comes to voting in the upgrade-ies.

01:18:21 ◼   ► But 20 max for 2020 is one of my favorite shows this year.

01:18:24 ◼   ► - Oh, good.

01:18:25 ◼   ► - You do a very good job with it,

01:18:26 ◼   ► a better job than you need to, if that makes sense.

01:18:30 ◼   ► The editing and the storytelling is really good.

01:18:32 ◼   ► No, but you make a lot of creative decisions in the show

01:18:36 ◼   ► that just add flavor, you don't need to do them.

01:18:40 ◼   ► And I think that that is the mark

01:18:42 ◼   ► of a very good production like this.

01:18:44 ◼   ► - That's very nice.

01:18:45 ◼   ► Thank you for saying that.

01:18:45 ◼   ► It is a journey sometimes, writing those episodes

01:18:48 ◼   ► where I go to some interesting places.

01:18:50 ◼   ► But I allow myself to do those things

01:18:53 ◼   ► because that's the whole point is that

01:18:55 ◼   ► I wanna explore what that kind of a podcast is like.

01:18:58 ◼   ► And if something strikes my fancy,

01:19:01 ◼   ► I'm like, yeah, let's go with that.

01:19:02 ◼   ► Let's go in that direction.

01:19:03 ◼   ► Then I do it.

01:19:07 ◼   ► So yeah, people should check it out.

01:19:08 ◼   ► They're short.

01:19:09 ◼   ► They're not like conversational podcasts.

01:19:11 ◼   ► It's a very different kind of thing.

01:19:13 ◼   ► And they're like, most of them are about 15 minutes long

01:19:15 ◼   ► every now and then there's a 20 minute long one.

01:19:18 ◼   ► But yeah, they're a lot of fun.

01:19:21 ◼   ► - Josh wants to know, do you have any app recommendations

01:19:24 ◼   ► for sleep tracking data analysis?

01:19:27 ◼   ► - Not me.

01:19:30 ◼   ► - No.

01:19:31 ◼   ► - I don't do this either,

01:19:32 ◼   ► but I have two apps that I wanted to recommend anyway

01:19:35 ◼   ► for Josh to answer the question.

01:19:37 ◼   ► But I am keen to hear from the Upgradians

01:19:41 ◼   ► to what their experience is with this.

01:19:43 ◼   ► Like I've wondered if sleep tracking is a thing.

01:19:46 ◼   ► Have you ever tried it?

01:19:47 ◼   ► - I tried it like one time

01:19:50 ◼   ► and decided I didn't wanna wear a watch all night.

01:19:52 ◼   ► - I did.

01:19:53 ◼   ► It is my thing too is I don't think I wanna wear

01:19:55 ◼   ► my watch all the time. - I bought a Bedit.

01:19:57 ◼   ► I bought a Bedit which Apple owns,

01:19:58 ◼   ► which is a sensor you lay on the bed and then it logs it.

01:20:03 ◼   ► And that was okay,

01:20:05 ◼   ► but I didn't really do anything with the data

01:20:07 ◼   ► and it really wanted your iPhone to be next to your bed,

01:20:11 ◼   ► which mine isn't.

01:20:12 ◼   ► And then I paid her with my iPad and it didn't work

01:20:16 ◼   ► because there's no health app

01:20:17 ◼   ► and it was just a whole thing.

01:20:18 ◼   ► So I've tried it and I would say if I had some sleep,

01:20:23 ◼   ► serious sleep issues,

01:20:24 ◼   ► I would make a better effort than I have.

01:20:27 ◼   ► - Isn't it weird that you could still buy that Bedit thing?

01:20:30 ◼   ► - It is a little bit weird.

01:20:32 ◼   ► Like I wonder what they were doing with that.

01:20:36 ◼   ► I think it's superior in a lot of ways

01:20:39 ◼   ► because you don't have to wear a watch

01:20:42 ◼   ► and your sleep can be analyzed.

01:20:44 ◼   ► That's actually a nice idea,

01:20:47 ◼   ► but it seems like such a strange thing.

01:20:49 ◼   ► - FileMaker.

01:20:50 ◼   ► - Why is that?

01:20:51 ◼   ► Yeah, why is it an Apple product?

01:20:53 ◼   ► Why did they buy it?

01:20:54 ◼   ► - Like legitimately at the bottom of the Bedit website,

01:20:57 ◼   ► it says copyright Apple incorporated.

01:20:59 ◼   ► - Yeah.

01:21:00 ◼   ► Yeah, they bought the whole thing.

01:21:01 ◼   ► That'll be it tomorrow, Myke, tomorrow.

01:21:04 ◼   ► - That is a sleep tracking tool.

01:21:06 ◼   ► - Bedit 3.

01:21:07 ◼   ► - Surprise.

01:21:09 ◼   ► - Big Bedit 3 release tomorrow.

01:21:11 ◼   ► - So the apps that I wanted to suggest to people

01:21:13 ◼   ► that I know friends that use,

01:21:15 ◼   ► so if you wanna check them out,

01:21:17 ◼   ► Sleep++ and AutoSleep,

01:21:19 ◼   ► two recommendations that I see a lot for applications

01:21:22 ◼   ► to analyze your sleep data.

01:21:25 ◼   ► - Marly's asks, "Why isn't Apple selling

01:21:27 ◼   ► AFC Richmond jerseys?"

01:21:29 ◼   ► Now, we don't-- - That's the Lazzo reference.

01:21:31 ◼   ► - Yeah, exactly.

01:21:32 ◼   ► We don't have answers to questions like this.

01:21:34 ◼   ► I wish they did.

01:21:36 ◼   ► They should be doing this.

01:21:38 ◼   ► The reason I included this question in today's episode

01:21:41 ◼   ► is because I saw this on a 9to5Mac link to Space Explored,

01:21:46 ◼   ► which is, this is Zach Hall's website.

01:21:50 ◼   ► I think Zach runs it.

01:21:52 ◼   ► It's part of the overall 9to5 thing.

01:21:55 ◼   ► The Apple are selling a For All Mankind Mission patch set.

01:22:00 ◼   ► - Yes.

01:22:03 ◼   ► - And I find it interesting

01:22:05 ◼   ► and think they should do more merch.

01:22:07 ◼   ► And I would so much want an AFC Richmond jersey.

01:22:12 ◼   ► - Yeah, yeah, no, this is a place where I think Apple

01:22:18 ◼   ► has fallen down is working on the marketing angle

01:22:22 ◼   ► for some of its shows.

01:22:24 ◼   ► Like there should be, it's a network, right?

01:22:26 ◼   ► There should be like a CBS store kind of thing

01:22:29 ◼   ► where you can go to the Apple TV store

01:22:31 ◼   ► or even in the Apple store itself.

01:22:33 ◼   ► But if they have to set up something on the side, whatever,

01:22:36 ◼   ► where you can buy your morning show mug

01:22:41 ◼   ► and your stickers or patches or whatever

01:22:44 ◼   ► for For All Mankind missions.

01:22:47 ◼   ► Interesting that this one kind of leaked out.

01:22:49 ◼   ► It's a strange thing.

01:22:50 ◼   ► It's for season two.

01:22:51 ◼   ► So it's like kind of a spoiler.

01:22:52 ◼   ► - Yeah, I haven't looked at the patches.

01:22:54 ◼   ► I recommend not looking at them in detail

01:22:57 ◼   ► in case there's spoilers in there.

01:22:59 ◼   ► - And then Ted Lasso, there are so many people

01:23:02 ◼   ► who are sort of like making not licensed shirts and stuff.

01:23:07 ◼   ► You had to reference Ted Lasso

01:23:10 ◼   ► because people have really loved that show

01:23:12 ◼   ► and yet there's nothing out there.

01:23:14 ◼   ► I feel like if you're running a network or streaming service

01:23:18 ◼   ► you should probably have a store where people who are fans,

01:23:21 ◼   ► super fans can buy stuff related to the shows

01:23:23 ◼   ► that you've got.

01:23:24 ◼   ► And I'm surprised they haven't done that.

01:23:27 ◼   ► - Yeah, like Beaks in the chat is like,

01:23:29 ◼   ► I would love a morning show coffee mug.

01:23:31 ◼   ► Like that's like just a funny one to have, right?

01:23:34 ◼   ► Like I really would like to see them doing more

01:23:37 ◼   ► in this vein 'cause this is how you build super fans

01:23:40 ◼   ► of your properties.

01:23:41 ◼   ► And Ted Lasso specifically really seems like one

01:23:46 ◼   ► of those shows that people would like to have

01:23:48 ◼   ► that kind of stuff for because it has this,

01:23:51 ◼   ► it's not at this point, it's not a cult following

01:23:54 ◼   ► but it's that kind of feeling, you know,

01:23:57 ◼   ► like have you heard the good news

01:23:59 ◼   ► about Ted Lasso kind of thing?

01:24:00 ◼   ► Anton asks, what do you think are Apple's options

01:24:05 ◼   ► in regards to the iPad mini?

01:24:07 ◼   ► Do they kill it?

01:24:08 ◼   ► Do they keep it in the same form factor

01:24:09 ◼   ► and a chip behind everything else?

01:24:11 ◼   ► Or do they update it to look more like the iPad Air?

01:24:14 ◼   ► What do you think they're gonna do?

01:24:15 ◼   ► - It's always a good question 'cause it's unclear

01:24:19 ◼   ► how Apple feels about the iPad mini

01:24:20 ◼   ► but they kept it around.

01:24:22 ◼   ► So my guess is that the next iPad mini revision

01:24:24 ◼   ► will be like the iPad Air.

01:24:26 ◼   ► It'll be a touch ID on a button

01:24:28 ◼   ► and they'll move the bezels in a little bit

01:24:31 ◼   ► and update it with modern-ish chips

01:24:36 ◼   ► and maybe it'll even get the sides

01:24:41 ◼   ► and support Apple Pencil too, maybe even that.

01:24:43 ◼   ► But like, I think they'll, you know,

01:24:45 ◼   ► much later than you wanted, they'll update it to be

01:24:49 ◼   ► what their sort of state of the art for the cheaper iPads is.

01:24:54 ◼   ► So yeah, ultimately I think it will look like the iPad Air.

01:24:57 ◼   ► - I hope so, I would really love that product.

01:25:00 ◼   ► I think it would be really, really nice.

01:25:02 ◼   ► And final question today comes from Ryan.

01:25:05 ◼   ► Do you run apps that have Electron versions

01:25:08 ◼   ► or do you just use these services in a web browser?

01:25:12 ◼   ► So like, if a company's Mac app,

01:25:17 ◼   ► the only thing they offer is an Electron app,

01:25:19 ◼   ► do you use those or do you use them in a web browser instead?

01:25:22 ◼   ► - I absolutely use the apps

01:25:24 ◼   ► because I hate apps that run on a web browser.

01:25:27 ◼   ► I hate it because I use my web browser for the web

01:25:29 ◼   ► and then there's a tab that is in the browser

01:25:33 ◼   ► and you can't find it or you close.

01:25:35 ◼   ► I'm not somebody who keeps a million tabs open.

01:25:37 ◼   ► So what happens with me is then I close it.

01:25:40 ◼   ► I close the window and I'm like,

01:25:41 ◼   ► "Oh, I just lost that app that was in a tab in that window."

01:25:45 ◼   ► And I hate that, I hate it, I hate it, I hate it.

01:25:47 ◼   ► I would like to send more web apps

01:25:50 ◼   ► out into separate applications.

01:25:53 ◼   ► And I know about single site browsing things,

01:25:56 ◼   ► sometimes they don't work right.

01:25:58 ◼   ► I'll just say that, sometimes they don't work right.

01:25:59 ◼   ► But so I, of course I run the Electron versions

01:26:02 ◼   ► because they're apps and they run in their own app space

01:26:04 ◼   ► and I know when they're open and I know when they're closed

01:26:06 ◼   ► and I can control them.

01:26:08 ◼   ► I much prefer that, I hate running something

01:26:11 ◼   ► that looks like an app, but it's in a web browser, hate it.

01:26:14 ◼   ► - I will also just state for the record

01:26:16 ◼   ► that I'm not, I don't think I can tell

01:26:19 ◼   ► if an app is an Electron app.

01:26:21 ◼   ► Maybe it makes me a bad Mac user, I don't know.

01:26:24 ◼   ► - No, computer nerds like to,

01:26:26 ◼   ► well yeah, but if you open an activity monitor

01:26:28 ◼   ► and you look at the RAM being used,

01:26:29 ◼   ► I'm like, yeah, you know, I just run Slack, it's fine.

01:26:32 ◼   ► And it's in an app and I'm glad it's in an app.

01:26:34 ◼   ► I don't want it in my web browser.

01:26:37 ◼   ► - If you would like to send in a question

01:26:38 ◼   ► for us to answer at the end of the show,

01:26:40 ◼   ► just send in a tweet with #askupgrade.

01:26:43 ◼   ► Or if you are a Relay FM member,

01:26:45 ◼   ► just use the command question mark ask upgrade.

01:26:48 ◼   ► You can become a Relay FM member

01:26:49 ◼   ► and support upgrade directly

01:26:51 ◼   ► by going to getupgradeplus.com.

01:26:54 ◼   ► If you do that, you will get access to a special feed

01:26:57 ◼   ► that gives you ad-free episodes of upgrade

01:27:00 ◼   ► every single week with bonus content.

01:27:03 ◼   ► It's typically like 15 to 20 minutes more upgrade for you

01:27:07 ◼   ► every week with no ads.

01:27:09 ◼   ► And you also get an additional bonus of 20 max for 2020,

01:27:12 ◼   ► a few days before anybody else,

01:27:14 ◼   ► along with all of the other wonderful perks

01:27:16 ◼   ► that you get for being a Relay FM member,

01:27:18 ◼   ► which includes annual specials,

01:27:20 ◼   ► access to the Relay FM members Discord, and so much more.

01:27:23 ◼   ► It is a fantastic deal.

01:27:25 ◼   ► Just go to getupgradeplus.com

01:27:27 ◼   ► and thank you so, so much to all of you upgrade

01:27:30 ◼   ► instead of done that.

01:27:31 ◼   ► We really, really appreciate your support.

01:27:33 ◼   ► I'd also like to thank DoorDash, KiwiCo, and Ooni

01:27:37 ◼   ► for their support of this show.

01:27:39 ◼   ► If you would like to find Jason Snell online,

01:27:41 ◼   ► you can, oh God, I've ruined everything for myself

01:27:44 ◼   ► by saying at the start of the show,

01:27:47 ◼   ► go to sixcolors.com or the incomparable.com,

01:27:50 ◼   ► or he is just @jay.

01:27:52 ◼   ► That's as far as I'm going from now.

01:27:54 ◼   ► He's @jay on Twitter.

01:27:57 ◼   ► You can fill in the rest for yourself.

01:28:00 ◼   ► I am @imike, I am Y-K-E.

01:28:03 ◼   ► I have been experimenting with Twitch streaming recently.

01:28:07 ◼   ► It's all keyboard related content.

01:28:09 ◼   ► If you thought to yourself,

01:28:10 ◼   ► "Well, I really liked it when Myke and Jason

01:28:13 ◼   ► "spoke about keyboards on the show before."

01:28:15 ◼   ► Maybe you're a keyboard person.

01:28:17 ◼   ► If you are, you should tune into my Twitch streams

01:28:19 ◼   ► at mike.live.

01:28:20 ◼   ► I'm gonna be doing something on Saturday the 12th

01:28:24 ◼   ► at 9 a.m. Pacific, 5 p.m. GMT.

01:28:28 ◼   ► I'm gonna be building a keyboard called a Think 6.5

01:28:31 ◼   ► from scratch, which includes soldering and everything.

01:28:35 ◼   ► So you can come and hang out then and watch me do that.

01:28:39 ◼   ► We'll be back next time.

01:28:41 ◼   ► Until then, say goodbye, co-host friend.

01:28:45 ◼   ► - Farewell, I'm Myke.

01:28:49 ◼   ► Bye, Myke.

01:28:51 ◼   ► - Bye, Jason Snell.

01:28:52 ◼   ► - No!

01:28:53 ◼   ► (laughing)

01:28:55 ◼   ► (upbeat music)

01:28:58 ◼   ► [ Music ]