338: Loved by Podcasters the World Over


00:00:00   [Music]

00:00:08   From Relay FM, this is Upgrade, episode 338. Today's show is brought to you by Fitbod, Hover, and DoorDash.

00:00:16   My name is Myke Hurley and I am joined by Jason Snell. Hi Jason Snell.

00:00:20   Hi Myke Hurley. How are you today? I'm doing great, doing great.

00:00:24   Wonderful. I have a #SnellTalk question for you. It comes from Stitch.

00:00:27   Stitch wants to know, did you enjoy the Super Bowl?

00:00:31   I was relieved to have a Super Bowl that didn't involve a team that I cared about at all.

00:00:37   Last year I cared about the Super Bowl and this year I didn't and so that was kind of nice.

00:00:42   And yeah, sure. It was fun. I watched the whole thing and all the commercials are

00:00:47   interesting and I was watching Twitter and I think you put all those things together and you're kind

00:00:51   of, there's a moment where everybody's sort of watching the same TV show and I think that's a fun

00:00:56   thing to do. So, and you know, we had some chips and guacamole and yeah, it was nice.

00:01:01   I will say, you know, you say about these were two teams that you didn't really care about.

00:01:06   I will say they were two teams that I, the names of which I did not recognize.

00:01:11   Ah, yes. As a non-American, uh, football watcher.

00:01:16   Yes. They watched the halftime show though. I watched that.

00:01:21   Yeah, sure. I liked it. I'm a big fan of The Weekend. I like The Weekend's music a lot.

00:01:26   I saw a tweet that said the people who know that it's spelled The Weeknd liked it and the

00:01:30   people who thought it spelled The Weeknd didn't like it. That's about right.

00:01:34   Fair. That is very fair.

00:01:36   I love the fact that a guy I saw at an Apple event, uh,

00:01:39   was at the Super Bowl halftime show. That was pretty fun. Um, yeah, he's good. And I liked,

00:01:46   I liked the whole thing. They did it. Uh, you know, usually Super Bowl halftime, they bring a

00:01:50   stage out to the middle of the field and they have like a bunch of people run in who are not

00:01:53   there for the game, but they're like screaming fans. And because of the pandemic, they didn't

00:01:56   do that. And they had this space in that stadium that during the regular season, it's, it's like

00:02:00   a pirate ship because it's the Tampa Bay Buccaneers. There's a, there's like a pirate ship there and it

00:02:05   fires off like fake cannons and stuff when they score touchdowns. And I don't know. Um, and they

00:02:09   made that into like the stage for The Weekend and he had his weird glowing eyed kind of robot monster

00:02:17   people, uh, which I really liked. I liked how creepy it was. And then he goes into the hall of

00:02:21   mirrors and they're bumping into him and all of that. I really liked the staging of it. And then

00:02:24   he just, it was very theatrical and then they end up all kind of like marching down the field

00:02:28   at the end. I really liked it. I thought it was good. Yeah. I thought the visuals of it was great

00:02:32   and I love his music. So I think it fit very nicely for that environment. So yeah, I thought

00:02:39   it was a lot of fun. Was there anything ad related that was of interest to you? Well,

00:02:44   I have a little mini upstream note, which is, uh, the, the broadcast was on CBS in the United States.

00:02:49   The CBS got the broadcast this year. And, uh, we've talked about how after, you know, the

00:02:56   very much fraught merger between re merger between Viacom and CBS, they had to figure out what they

00:03:03   were doing for their streaming service strategy. And they ultimately decided to call it Paramount

00:03:08   plus because sure. It's got a plus. And I think Paramount plus is a better name for a streaming

00:03:15   service than CBS all access because CBS all access sounds like a chance to watch old episodes of CSI.

00:03:22   Um, and Paramount plus actually sounds like a streaming service. That's got a lot of stuff

00:03:27   on it. So that's what they are going with. And that launches March 3rd. I want to say it launches

00:03:32   in a month, basically a little less than a month. And since they have super bowl, there's a whole ad

00:03:37   campaign during the super bowl. Uh, the repeated ads sort of like an ongoing story that I thought

00:03:41   was a funny like comedy bit that they did with all the properties of the corporate behemoth,

00:03:46   but lighthearted. Uh, and, uh, so they heavily pushed that, uh, which I think, uh, you know,

00:03:52   you got the stage, you got the super bowl, you're launching your thing in a month. The only thing

00:03:57   that would have made it better is if they launched it like today, but apparently they couldn't do

00:04:01   that. So they're launching it in March and they're still, I think it was the right thing to do to

00:04:05   promote it. It's probably why they paid the money they paid for the super bowl. Well, I mean, they

00:04:12   it's, that's more complicated. Like they pay those contracts. If you're an NFL broadcaster,

00:04:16   you get in the rotation and they did actually change who broadcast this year. And it had to

00:04:21   do with like who had other events in the year that they wanted to promote. They swapped dates with

00:04:26   one of the other networks, but it wasn't about this and that happens way in advance. So, but it

00:04:30   was a happy accident. And I think they must've had that moment where just like, well, we got to

00:04:34   promote the streaming service at the super bowl, but we can't launch it in time. So we'll just say

00:04:38   it's coming in March. And I think it would have been more effective if they could have said,

00:04:41   you know, CBS, all access is now paramount plus sign up today. And instead they're like March 3rd,

00:04:47   which is so close to right. Yeah. But sometimes, you know, the best late plans and all that kind

00:04:54   of stuff. But I do, I do think, you know, as silly as we make fun of the branding and all that,

00:04:58   but they took a broad, it's like a classic movie name from, from entertainment history that they

00:05:04   own, which is paramount. And yeah, they stuck a plus on it. I know. Paramount's the better brand.

00:05:09   It's like why HBO max, right? Like HBO is a better brand. Exactly. And it's a worldwide brand in the

00:05:17   way that CBS is most definitely not. And also again, CBS means something in America, but it

00:05:22   doesn't necessarily mean what you want it to mean. Like watching as a Star Trek fan watching press

00:05:28   kind of contort themselves to explain that no Star Trek is not on CBS. It's on CBS all access, which

00:05:34   is a streaming thing, but it's the name for the broadcast thing, but it's not on the broadcast

00:05:39   thing, except, you know, one episode is now they're going to rerun some and it gets very confusing.

00:05:43   It's much easier to be like, no, no, no, it's a streaming service. That's all you need to know.

00:05:46   If you would like to send in a question to help us open a future episode of the show,

00:05:51   just send out a tweet with the hashtag snow talk or use question Mark snow talk in the relay

00:05:55   FM members discord, couple of follow-up notes. So this is kind of funny because we can not only

00:06:01   get some follow-up, but also provide follow-up for a thing that we haven't yet spoken about,

00:06:06   which was the returning of the DTK, the developer transition kits. So last week, sometime Apple

00:06:13   contacted developers who received their arm Mac mini developer transition kits to tell them that

00:06:19   the time was coming for them to return them. We all knew that they would need to be returned.

00:06:23   Yes. It was the obvious thing. Uh, precedent had been set with the Intel, uh, transition kit that

00:06:29   Apple would likely offer some large discount or a free and one Mac for those in the programs.

00:06:34   What people were expecting, they're expecting some kind of like,

00:06:38   Hey, give us the hardware back. You did pay us $500. So we'll say thank you with this.

00:06:43   On this occasion, Apple offered a $200 credit towards an M1 Mac that you had to purchase before

00:06:50   the end of May. This upset people for a bunch of reasons. It's a very small amount, right? $200.

00:06:56   Yeah. Um, you probably already bought one, right? There's unlikely to be any, not necessarily, but

00:07:04   it is unknown if there will be any Macs before the end of May that are new. It's very unlikely

00:07:10   to be the MacBook pros, which is what everybody would want. Right. And you had to buy before the

00:07:15   end of May. And apparently I was seeing on Twitter, some developers, including Steve

00:07:18   Trout and Smith complaining something I didn't know, which was a lot of the DTKs stopped working,

00:07:23   like there were lots of issues with them. Um, so, you know, it's easy to say, Oh, well, you know,

00:07:29   of course people want more stuff. And, but this is, these are the most important people to Apple.

00:07:33   These are their developers and these are their developers who want to be on the cutting edge

00:07:36   and supporting their new platforms. So you would think that they would, they would try to do,

00:07:40   you know, everything. And I would say that the, the, the, the, this problem started early.

00:07:46   Cause, um, everybody with a DTK is they, they expected that they were going to be able to get

00:07:51   something from Apple out of it, but then the M1 Macs are announced and they're like, okay,

00:07:54   now what Apple and months go by. And I, a lot of developers are like, I'm going to wait and buy an

00:08:01   M1 Mac once my DTK situation is resolved. And it's like, why did you make them wait? Why did you not

00:08:07   make it clear upfront that what they could do so that they could move on it immediately? But

00:08:12   instead they waited all this time and then they put the, I mean, again, more money would be nicer

00:08:17   than less money than $200, but also the restriction of you've got to, you can only use it on an M1 Mac

00:08:22   and you have to use it by May. So if we announce anything at WWDC, you can't use it for that.

00:08:28   It seemed again, they could do what they want with this program. They really can,

00:08:32   but it seemed very strange that they would be so limited with what they would offer considering

00:08:39   that these are their most important people really, which is their developers and like do a, do a good

00:08:45   thing for your developers and for developer relations, please, which good news eventually

00:08:51   they did. So just a few days later, Apple increased the credit to $500, pushed the redemption day out

00:08:57   to the end of the year and said that if you already have an M1 Mac, you can use the credit on other

00:09:01   Apple hardware. It's just like, oh, oh, you wanted different things? Okay. We'll just give you those

00:09:07   then. I would love to hear that conversation of like, oh, it turns out that everybody hates us

00:09:12   for this. Why did we do it this way, Johnny? Johnny, did you do this? Yeah, I did this. I

00:09:16   just wanted to save some money. Well, Johnny, get out there and give them $500 now. The amount at

00:09:22   which they reverse this, I think kind of shows that they weren't aware of why this would be a problem,

00:09:27   right? Because they, they really, they, they could have done any of these three things and

00:09:33   appeased people, you know, they would have not have appeased everyone, but they would have appeased

00:09:37   people, right? Because you could have said, oh, it's $500 or oh, don't worry, it's the

00:09:41   end of the year, or you can just use it on a new iPad or whatever. Uh, but instead they just did

00:09:47   all of them, which I think is right. Honestly, I do think it's right to make developers whole

00:09:51   for this because it's doing Apple a favor as much as the developers a favor. Yeah. I think the way

00:09:58   we viewed the Intel transition kit. And I think that the way that a lot of developers viewed this,

00:10:03   uh, Apple Silicon transition kit is that you're essentially putting down a deposit on some

00:10:09   hardware that you're going to need to return to Apple. And that when you return it, you're going

00:10:14   to basically, you're going to get your money back because you're not, the idea here is that you're,

00:10:19   you know, yes, you're going to have your stuff there on day one, but you're also doing Apple

00:10:23   a favor by embracing an Apple, you know, it's a, it's a symbiotic relationship here. It's like,

00:10:27   we're going to get you this advanced, weird hardware because we really want your apps there

00:10:31   on day one, but we're going to charge you for it is a weird thing. So like they could, I think it's

00:10:37   not unreasonable to view it as being, uh, essentially free with a deposit and you want to get

00:10:41   that money back at the end. And in the end, that is what they did. Uh, Bloomberg reports, uh, that

00:10:48   Dan Riccio's new role. So we spoke about this last week that he was moving on from kind of head of

00:10:54   hardware to a special project is actually going to be overseeing an AR VR, uh, project development

00:11:01   cycle. Um, I don't remember if I spoke about this, if I mentioned this on this show or on connected,

00:11:06   but this is what I thought it was like the idea of him moving on to do a car, which is what everybody

00:11:11   thought seemed unlikely to me. It felt like considering they have this whole thing, which

00:11:17   is sooner, which is moving into AR and VR projects that in theory is going to be a really big deal.

00:11:24   So having somebody oversee that makes more sense. And that's what Mark Gorman's reporting. I think

00:11:28   this makes complete, maybe he moves on to a car afterwards if that's something Apple really is

00:11:33   going to do. Um, but in the near term, there are other things to manage and AR VR is one of them.

00:11:41   So that's what a Riccio is going to be going on to do. Yeah. And it sounds like they're,

00:11:45   they're at the point we're going to talk about this in a little bit, but it sounds like they're

00:11:48   at the point where they need to make real products. Um, in that category. And the first one may not be

00:11:54   much of a real product, but that, that is they're entering the phase where they're going to go public

00:12:00   with this stuff. And so having him kind of lead that effort makes more sense than, than like far

00:12:06   off car stuff, which, you know, we will, we will talk about car stuff here eventually, but I feel

00:12:12   like there's no rush. I think we've got a few years to talk about it, so we'll get to it. Yeah. So I

00:12:17   will just note, like, there's so much stuff going on with the Apple car and I've been collecting

00:12:21   some notes, right. I collect links as I do for everything. And every week I collect more links

00:12:26   and delete old links because like one moment Kia's doing it and then Kia's not doing it. Then they are

00:12:31   doing it. And then they're not doing it. And it's, yeah, I'm kind of happy we haven't yet spoken

00:12:36   about it because we would be doing follow-up every single week on this about a product that may or

00:12:41   may not exist and who knows why. And I will say the one thing that happened in the last week in

00:12:46   your, in the Apple car news and we're still, we need to come up with a name for our recurring

00:12:50   Apple car segment. I'm thinking Upshift, but we can, we can work it out. Oh my God. All right.

00:12:55   Now we have to start talking about it because you came up with a great name. We'll, we'll,

00:12:58   we'll workshop it. But the funny thing this week, what happened, so this is like a little,

00:13:02   a little side segment, is there was a report that said Hyundai and Kia are going to totally make the

00:13:10   Apple car in their plant in Georgia. And then like two days later, there was a story that was like,

00:13:14   no, no, no, no, no, no, no, nothing is signed. No, no, no, no, no, no, nothing, nothing.

00:13:18   And I can't decide whether there are negotiations going on and things are leaking from that.

00:13:23   And then Apple gets mad and that Hyundai has to put out like their leaks that say, no, no, no, no,

00:13:29   no, no, no, no, nothing has happened. Or they totally have made the deal and Apple's unhappy

00:13:34   that it leaked and Hyundai has to go out and say, no, no, no, no, no. Or they made the deal. Then

00:13:38   they said it, Apple got so mad, canceled it. Right? Like it could be any of those things.

00:13:42   Could be, right? It's hard to say from the outside what it is, but it is hilarious. I say,

00:13:47   I, you know, I wouldn't want to be one of the people deeply involved in this cause it's not

00:13:50   hilarious to them, but to me it's hilarious. Cause it's very much like, uh, right, right. In the Apple

00:13:57   supply chain, although there are leaks, most of the companies know like nobody making a part for

00:14:04   an iPhone is putting out a press release saying, Hey, the next iPhone is going to be pretty great

00:14:08   because of our thing that we're putting in the next iPhone that'll be coming this fall. Right?

00:14:12   They know, they know you don't do that. You don't pre-announce anything with Apple. Apple

00:14:16   doesn't want you to do that. And it feels a little bit like there are people in the car industry

00:14:20   who, you know, car industry, they're like, Oh, concept car, new car. This car is coming out in

00:14:25   two years and stuff like that. Who are like, yeah, we're going to be in the Apple car. And then people

00:14:29   are like, no, you can't, you can't do that. And they're like, Oh, I didn't. Oh, okay. Deny it.

00:14:34   No, we're not in the, there is no Apple car. So they'll get, they'll get used to it. And then

00:14:38   we'll have kind of normal leaks from the car industry. But right now it does feel a little

00:14:42   bit like they don't know how to behave about secret Apple stuff. And so there it's, it's sloppy,

00:14:48   it's messy, but I find it very funny that this is these, and this isn't the first time, right? This

00:14:52   is the second time somebody has said, Oh, Apple's got to deal with Hyundai. And then it's been like,

00:14:56   no, no, no, no, absolutely not. And then wait, wait a month. And then it's, Oh, Apple's got to

00:15:01   deal with Hyundai. Nope, Nope, Nope. All right. This episode is brought to you by our friends

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00:17:17   and Relay FM. So the information has a report on Apple's upcoming AR, VR, MR headset. It's

00:17:30   scheduled to launch "as early as next year" so not before 2022. But 2022 onwards. This is a thing that

00:17:40   I see Bloomberg say this a lot, Mark Gilman says this a lot too, "as early as" because it's like

00:17:45   they have an idea but they don't know when it's going to be. So they've got some information about

00:17:49   some hardware features. So one is more than a dozen cameras for tracking hand movements.

00:17:54   And apparently there'll be also some thimble-like device potentially that could be worn on a finger.

00:18:01   But it seems like from this report they may be really leaning into hand tracking for some kind of

00:18:08   AR, VR headset. I don't want them to rely solely on hand tracking myself. I think there should also be

00:18:17   some kind of controllers. What do you think? Well I haven't had an experience with like pure hand

00:18:24   tracking in VR or AR. I see the importance of having the controllers because remember my first

00:18:31   VR thing was PSVR with just a controller and not the PS Move things and so it didn't hand track

00:18:41   basically and that was not great. And now with the Oculus Quest 2 it has individual hand controllers

00:18:49   and so it does controller-based tracking and it is like night and day. I can see the appeal of not

00:18:55   even having to do that optionally and have you know it just has cameras and it can sense where

00:19:01   your hands are and it uses that. My concern is that you know you're giving up some specificity of input

00:19:06   and you're right because you don't have buttons that you can push and also you're relying on a

00:19:13   view from above to your hand and that also probably means that you could make small gestures sort of

00:19:19   in the shadow you know out of the line of sight that it wouldn't pick up potentially. And I worry

00:19:24   that just doing it based entirely on a camera I worry about precision right because one of the

00:19:31   things that amazes me that's magical about the Quest 2 ping pong game is that it is shockingly

00:19:38   precise in simulating that. That said I'm not playing ping pong. I mean ping pong is a good

00:19:44   example where I'm holding a paddle in my hand so I'm holding the controller so it feels real but in

00:19:49   most of these cases you know you're supposed to be reaching out with your hands but you're in fact

00:19:53   lifting a hand that's holding a controller and pressing a button and that's not... so I see the

00:19:57   appeal of hand tracking you know I guess what I would say is having something that allows you to

00:20:05   have a more precise experience as an option is probably the right way to do it. If you think

00:20:10   about the iPad letting you use the Apple pencil or a finger or attaching a keyboard I sort of think

00:20:15   that AR and VR maybe needs the same approach which is maybe you want a game controller maybe you want

00:20:21   you know hand tracking controllers or maybe you don't need any of those for this application and

00:20:25   you can just use your hands and that's and swipe in the air like on a science fiction TV show and

00:20:30   that's enough so I'm kind of open about it. I see the appeal of doing it purely that way but I also

00:20:34   see all the ways that if you didn't implement it kind of perfectly and brilliantly it would have

00:20:39   downsides. It's like the as I think we spoke about as an upgrade plus a little bit ago when we were

00:20:45   talking about the Oculus Quest there is hand tracking there is a hand tracking mode and there

00:20:51   are some games that do it and the experience that I've had is quite limited the experience that I've

00:20:57   had is okay right it's like that was impressive that this kind of works at all that you know that

00:21:04   I'm pointing right but unless Apple has some huge leapfrog over Oculus on this I would be concerned

00:21:12   and well that's that's the question right it's like what we know we don't know whether that is

00:21:18   because it's really really hard or whether because I mean if Apple can do it right that that's not

00:21:23   having the product it's like well sure maybe Apple solved this problem that otherwise is bad and

00:21:27   they've done that before maybe they did it again or maybe not we don't know. Can you imagine like

00:21:35   an Apple VR controller they're just these two like buttonless like plinths of course that you just

00:21:42   hold and you have to just all that one touch surface you have to just work out exactly where

00:21:47   to hit it the cameras apparently will also be able to pass vision to the headset so to create that

00:21:52   kind of mixed reality mode so that's how it goes from AR to VR right it can either show you just

00:21:57   what's on the displays or it can as well as using those cameras from tracking for tracking can use

00:22:02   them to show the world outside of the headset so it could be used for AR or VR. Yeah and although

00:22:07   you look really dumb wearing a VR headset and moving around if you can see at least at least you

00:22:14   you don't look very good but you can see and there are some delightful things that you can do I mean

00:22:19   like I'm delighted by the low resolution black and white mixed reality mode that I can put the

00:22:24   August quest in because there not only is it just kind of hilarious but it's also very useful

00:22:28   because otherwise you can't see the world around you in any context and if you can couple that to

00:22:33   you have good cameras and you couple that to really good displays and again you're going to look like

00:22:38   a dummy you're going to look ridiculous but you could actually like walk around and do stuff and

00:22:44   have it be which is why Microsoft always talked about like hololens as a business tool right this

00:22:50   is like you're not going to walk around your house in this thing but if you were using it for a

00:22:55   business application you would have a an excuse for looking so silly. Apparently as well so this

00:23:03   is this is like going into that two 8k displays inside of this which seems aggressive I mean I'm

00:23:12   maybe I'm not completely familiar with the current state of VR headsets but I know a point that it

00:23:21   was just one display and it was across the whole thing and you would just look at it and they split

00:23:26   it down the middle maybe you do it now with two displays instead two small displays. I don't know

00:23:32   I mean I don't know I'm looking I'm trying to find this out from looking at the oculus page right now

00:23:37   and I can't find it. Your question is do they mean two 8k displays or do they mean there's an 8k

00:23:40   display that's split across the two maybe they misunderstood this or something right the the

00:23:45   point here though is that apple is shooting for a level of graphics detail that the existing

00:23:52   displays don't have. And now I feel like that might be quite an ask so especially with passing

00:24:00   the passing the outside world in right it's a lot of data to handle because you have to do it

00:24:07   in as close to real time as possible right to stop people from feeling nauseated you can't have like

00:24:14   a couple of second delay from me moving my head if I and then and the world moving. You need some

00:24:19   serious graphics power to drive those things you know that's the question. And at 8k right like

00:24:24   that's that's the thing like just to do it I expect is quite intensive but to do it at 8k

00:24:30   feels like a lot. I mean I guess this is the this is going to be one of I think the more interesting

00:24:39   tests of apple silicon. So I think what we're looking at here is apple wanting to build the

00:24:45   platform knowing that it's not going to ship in volume for years right not not going to ship in

00:24:52   volume with that first product it's really going to be the year after that or the year after that

00:24:57   even that it ships to regular customers at a regular price. And so what apple's doing

00:25:02   is smart if that's what they're doing which is it's imagining the moment when you could almost

00:25:10   view it as being apple drawing a line and saying below here it's not good enough for us right and

00:25:15   we also there's some injection of reality there like we're also not going to get there in a year.

00:25:20   So they're trying to build what the tech would be what's state of the art in VR in 2023 2024

00:25:29   because there's no point in building a 720p VR headset platform and and not shipping it for

00:25:37   four years or three years because you know the world has moved on by then. So this is very much

00:25:42   what you do if you were shooting for tech advancement that will take you where you want

00:25:46   to go in three or four years and in the meantime all you have to do is make a kind of heavy super

00:25:51   expensive technical demo version in you know for in a year which is what the report suggests

00:25:59   is going on and we've talked about some of those before that this is not there is going to be

00:26:02   expensive and it's not going to be in volume and we don't know whether they're going to call it a

00:26:08   developer kit or whether they're going to claim it's a consumer product but nobody's going to buy

00:26:12   it because it's going to be so expensive but that sort of makes sense if what they're really trying

00:26:16   to do is get everybody thinking about what the standard for VR and AR is going to be

00:26:20   when they ship that real product in you know 2023 2024 2025. So on that level it makes sense to me

00:26:30   like you know shoot shoot for as high end as you can right now because that high end is going to be

00:26:36   the mainstream by the time the product comes out the real product. Yeah so there's there is some

00:26:41   more hardware features but on that note because it leads into what you were saying the information's

00:26:46   quoting that the price is currently expected to be in the realm of three thousand dollars

00:26:51   which is I mean that's going to make it a niche product. Apple apparently also has an internal

00:26:58   goal of selling 250,000 in the first year they don't expect to sell more than that.

00:27:03   Now what you could argue is there's a couple of things going on there is one that that that part

00:27:09   of the argument which we spoke about a couple of weeks ago that this is a project that exists now

00:27:14   to encourage development and take up for their future more refined AR glasses project but the

00:27:22   other part lending into what you were just saying is if you start with this you you will start

00:27:28   driving the cost down just because you're making it. You know this reminds me of prices of folding

00:27:33   phones right you know when Samsung came out with their first folding phones they were incredibly

00:27:39   expensive and then they've been bringing that price down and one of the ways they can bring

00:27:43   the price down is by actually making it right like it's a funny thing but you you can push

00:27:48   the development of the technology forward by actually producing the products but I mean three

00:27:54   thousand dollars is going to be a lot of money for something like this. It's not a real product

00:28:01   like it's not a real product and every time we cover this we say the same thing which is

00:28:07   it doesn't sound like apple right this is you mentioned the folding phones the way this product

00:28:11   is described is described like apple's going to make a folding phone and it's going to cost two

00:28:17   thousand dollars like all those other folding phones and it's not practical and almost nobody's

00:28:22   going to buy one and it's going to be fragile but it's the future eventually and we'll see where it

00:28:28   goes yeah but they don't do that that's the thing is apple tends not to do that with a product like

00:28:33   like that so because this isn't a new category that's why I keep casting it and and this is me

00:28:38   wanting apple to really cast it as being it's not a product for every day it is for maybe specific

00:28:45   high-end businesses I could see them getting some you know special effects artist up on stage or

00:28:51   something like that and saying oh well they can use it for this and for developers of AR and VR

00:28:57   applications to plan for the future and they can pitch it that way and say that you know here's a

00:29:02   product that that nobody wants except these very specific things it's weird but that's the only way

00:29:07   it makes sense to me like this is not a product for for regular people it's only really a product

00:29:12   that is saying this is where we're going and you know check back in two years when we make

00:29:17   a product that you can actually afford and you would actually want to use so apparently this

00:29:23   device will also feature eye tracking which is new I mean I can understand that making sense I

00:29:33   haven't seen that on any competitive products it's not something that I remember I can see how these

00:29:38   two things would go hand in hand and especially for AR glasses in the future I could imagine eye

00:29:43   tracking being an important part of that and multiple headbands that have features of their own

00:29:49   one headband has spatial audio built into it another with additional battery this is something

00:29:55   we always thought about for apple watches airpods max yeah and for yeah yeah yeah

00:30:02   like well finally the swappable headbands are here right apple watch we talked about they

00:30:06   they obviously in the first apple watch were thinking that they might be able to do accessory

00:30:10   things in the bands or something and it just never happened you know obviously before they

00:30:14   even shipped it they were like no we're not going to do that but the idea that you could swap in

00:30:18   different parts makes sense I mean the the oculus quest which again I have very limited experience

00:30:24   with VR and AR stuff but like I got a I got the better headband for it and it's vastly improved

00:30:31   but I could see how you might want to use that as an accessory that actually could add more

00:30:34   functionality as you go for your three thousand you know it starts at three thousand dollars I

00:30:40   guess is what we're saying so the information have an illustration based on what they know

00:30:45   and this illustration has been around a lot because it clearly isn't the final product

00:30:51   because that just straight up wouldn't work right like the way that the product looks you've got

00:30:56   the you know the screens at the front and then a band that goes around your head right but the

00:31:01   issue with the band is there's no support on it like it would just be completely rested right on

00:31:05   the back of your head which it just wouldn't stay on right so but ignoring the specifics of how the

00:31:12   illustration is drawn I can see this product existing right because the components in there

00:31:18   all look like you know it's like oh okay I can see this right you've got the straps look like

00:31:24   Apple watch straps yeah the hardware itself looks like the AirPods Max right with like the material

00:31:30   on the face and the part on the front and the buttons and stuff and whilst the illustration

00:31:35   I don't think is perfect I think it indicates how a product like this could come from Apple visually

00:31:42   because it is building on these other things that they make so you could see I mean in a genuine

00:31:47   that's what I think they will do it because they do this right like they like freak the AirPods Max

00:31:52   have the digital crown on them right like Apple build on what they know how to make and adapt it

00:31:58   so I could see it it's true the other I mean I reacted to that thing also saying that it seems

00:32:04   like somebody saw something and then they described it to someone else and they said

00:32:08   well it's kind of like an Apple watch man like all right I know how to draw that sure yeah nobody the

00:32:12   put the illustrator had never seen anything the illustrator just had somebody tell them something

00:32:17   to something to something to someone it's a game of telephone a little bit and so I you know we'll

00:32:22   we'll but but perhaps the person who saw it looked at the illustration said yeah that's kind of it but

00:32:28   it's also not a final product right it's a product that's not going to ship before next year

00:32:33   at the earliest so who knows what you know what of that is real I don't know it's it's a very weird

00:32:40   rumor I mean I buy this report the information has had a good track record like they had

00:32:45   a really great report on the magic keyboard for iPad Pro like it kind of seemed to come out of

00:32:51   nowhere and they had a lot of the details and they've had good reports in the past like I trust

00:32:56   this because as well going through it it's like whilst this all seems like so much I can very much

00:33:03   imagine this product in the way it's described coming from Apple well I mean since the first

00:33:09   rumors came out about this I had that moment where I realized Apple does all of this right Apple's got

00:33:15   sensors and cameras and screens and like it could do this product using what it's got from basically

00:33:22   the iPhone could it make an iPhone that you put on your face and the answer is absolutely it could

00:33:27   this seems to be more than that right like they they they don't if they had wanted to do that they

00:33:33   could have done that probably a few years ago and they chose not to they seem to want to take it to

00:33:38   another level I'm still also I just want to back up for a second and say I'm also still a little

00:33:43   surprised that Apple really is embracing VR in the way that this rumor says they are because

00:33:49   VR always felt like a weird fit to me for Apple like VR is basically yes there are Microsoft-y

00:33:57   business considerations but it's also a very much a gaming platform and unless Apple's going to come

00:34:05   out and say oh no this is for VR productivity and you're going to be able to like have a 9,000

00:34:11   inch iPad that you can crawl over in VR and touch things and all of that like failing something like

00:34:17   that a VR productivity kind of pitch which I'm I would be very skeptical of I always thought AR made

00:34:24   more sense for Apple right because then it's we're out in the real world and you're wearing glasses

00:34:29   and I wonder if this is just Apple realizing that it's going to be a while before the tech is good

00:34:35   enough to do AR in public and so the only way you know they pushed it as far forward as they can by

00:34:42   putting LIDAR sensors on iPhones and iPads and that the only way they're going to really keep

00:34:47   pushing this tech forward till they get to the point where AR is practical is by taking an

00:34:52   interim step to VR I just don't know how great a fit VR is for Apple because you know again

00:34:58   depending on what their pitch is productivity and stuff like that I don't know I'm skeptical of that

00:35:03   it's going to come back to games and now we've got you know virtual reality iPhone games is that

00:35:07   something that people are going to really want is that a product that Apple is you know whatever

00:35:13   really excel at and that's I guess that's that's what I struggle with this is I can kind of see

00:35:18   the end result here which is what's going to replace phones is probably like glasses that you

00:35:24   just wear and that all the contents of your phone are there in your vision when you want them and

00:35:28   you don't have to hold anything up and put anything in your pocket like okay I think that's there's a

00:35:34   strong argument that may be ultimately where where it goes in 10 years 20 years 30 years who knows

00:35:39   and that Apple wants to be a leader there so they don't lose their advantage that they have in the

00:35:44   smartphone market and that all of this is really in you know is about that and ultimately they

00:35:50   they need to ship some products along the way because I'm still struggling with sort of like

00:35:55   what what's the product people want here and it feels more like there isn't a product people

00:36:00   want here but they know it's headed for somewhere where there's a product people want and they're

00:36:04   just going to spend time and money creeping in that direction because they know you know

00:36:10   they know that that's AR is where they want to get seamless AR that makes you not look like an

00:36:16   income poop is where where they want to get but they're just not going to be able to get there

00:36:19   for 10 years and so they have to work at it in the meantime that's the best I can come up with

00:36:23   right now because it's a very strange whole category strange product strange set of rumors

00:36:28   I'm still not I don't I don't disbelieve them I think that it's probably happening I'm just

00:36:32   struggling to figure out why that actually leads into a question this was an ask upgrade question

00:36:38   but I wanted to talk about it here uh Ian wrote in and said it seems that the both of you consider

00:36:43   to be hesitant regarding AR use in daily life but what about specific use cases AR doesn't have to be

00:36:50   all day to be game changing and I think I tend to be I think maybe out of the two of us I am the

00:36:57   the most uh concerned about about AR and so right so here's my kind of thinking on it um

00:37:04   I like the idea of mixed reality which is what this headset is which is you can use it for VR

00:37:12   for whatever you use in VR and you can use it for AR for specific types of things like for example

00:37:18   you can imagine IKEA having a mixed reality AR app so you no longer need manuals right and it can

00:37:25   detect the pieces and show you how to put them together you know like HoloLens have done so many

00:37:30   great demos of like have your granddad help you with the plumbing because he can see it and you

00:37:37   can see it and then he can draw arrows and like you know great that gaming is great for AR and VR

00:37:42   maybe video I don't know um you know they like typically at home experiences for specific

00:37:49   purposes sure what concerns me is this future product the the actual real goal AR glasses

00:37:57   because that's where this is all moving to like Apple for sure I think even Facebook they're not

00:38:04   going into this to make a really great gaming system right they want the next smartphone

00:38:11   that's what this is all for you make a really good point that I think that's exactly it is even

00:38:15   though they are you know happy to have oculus in the short term as a leader in VR and gaming and

00:38:22   all those things the reason that Facebook is making that bet is the same reason that I theorized

00:38:26   for Apple doing all of this which is the end result which is AR glasses that replace your

00:38:31   smartphone essentially that are your view of all your data and your internet is just a pair of

00:38:36   glasses that you wear around and Zuckerberg is like he's said stuff like this in the past you know he

00:38:41   he's often quoted as saying that Facebook missed mobile and he always considers that a big mistake

00:38:48   in his career which is not gonna do it again no which is why he buys Instagram buys whatsapp

00:38:54   buys oculus he buys things that seem like they're becoming a thing to make sure that Facebook can do

00:38:59   it and like the AR glasses product feels like the purpose of them is to create a product that

00:39:08   you wear all the time like an Apple watch for your face or I mean ultimately an iPhone for your face

00:39:14   ultimately it's an iPhone for your face but yes it would probably start as in more of an Apple

00:39:18   watch for your face and then move on in functionality yeah because no matter what

00:39:22   that the eventual product that replaces the smartphone is it's not going to be fully formed

00:39:28   straight away it's I don't think we're going to get a something like that with the smartphone where

00:39:33   you could just replace your existing phone no and that's the where the Apple watch parallel is good

00:39:38   it's going to be a view of some of the data that's on your phone will migrate instead of being on your

00:39:44   wrist which is sort of what's happening with the Apple watch it will be in your vision basically

00:39:49   and I don't feel comfortable with having apps and notifications and ads and services

00:39:57   being in my vision like it feels too intrusive to me like I one of my one of the things that

00:40:04   stops me from wanting to wear an Apple watch all the time is I don't like the tapping right

00:40:10   I don't like technology being physically connected to me in a way that it can demand my attention

00:40:18   so like this is something that going backwards and forwards wearing an Apple watch you know like

00:40:23   I wear it for a period of time and then not that is one of the things that I've really come down

00:40:27   to it I look don't tell me that I can like not you Jason listen don't tell me I can turn off the

00:40:32   notifications and it's not because that's when it was the freaking point and we're in the device yeah

00:40:37   you know and this is you know we can back up here because although we're kind of tech forward kind

00:40:43   of people like phones it's the same issue right the people will say this about phones too like I

00:40:48   don't want my yeah but I can put my phone down and walk away from it that's true I and also my phone

00:40:54   this is almost like a Snell Talk question my phone is permanently silenced like I don't get noises

00:41:01   from my phone either because I don't want them to bug me I don't want I don't want it to bug me

00:41:06   so you're right this is this is something that's in your face all the time I my counter to that would

00:41:11   be they're going to need to do a good job of setting the controls so that you're not constantly

00:41:18   being distracted by this stuff and then you know you can see that they'll the first time they do

00:41:22   it they won't really do a good job and then they'll be like oh no no no we're gonna do better in the

00:41:25   future and there'll be a lot of op-eds written on the internet that are about like why are we

00:41:29   so distracted by our our AR glasses and like you can see I think the difference may be my this is

00:41:37   my optimism is that maybe smartphones especially have had such an impact on society that by the

00:41:44   time AR glasses become practical we will have remembered like oh right we need to think about

00:41:50   the impact these have on society before we deploy them because we saw what happened with smartphones

00:41:56   and we don't want to have that again I just don't think that any technology company including Apple

00:42:02   has the ability to make that decision well and the Apple watch would be your would be your example

00:42:07   right it's like even even with all the controls that you've got there's this feeling of like I

00:42:13   can't really control it and it's just in my way and you know I see it I mean even if I mean I

00:42:20   guess my counter-argument would be what if you because you're thinking about an Apple watch in

00:42:24   your face what if you had a virtual phone okay follow me here what if it was literally

00:42:32   you didn't have anything with you but you could make a gesture or even lift up a hand like you

00:42:38   were holding a phone and you had a virtual phone like you could it could be that level of control

00:42:44   where you don't see anything unless you summon it and it's not overlaying as a normal matter of

00:42:50   course it's only when you summon it like there are there are I don't think it has to be bad but I

00:42:55   think you are right in that that's going to be the barrier to acceptance of this stuff is that you're

00:43:01   you know you're taking over my one of my senses basically to put your garbage in it I don't want

00:43:07   that I just think that the addiction that we have with our devices will be too strong if it's there

00:43:20   in front of us constantly I think you're right I think and that's what I was saying is I think

00:43:26   there are some societal dangers here that we're all going to have to to grapple with but in terms

00:43:33   of like Ian's question about hesitant regarding AR use in daily life it's like well first off

00:43:39   I do believe that this is the thing that's going to replace the smartphone I really do I really

00:43:44   do believe that in the end there will be some technology that will make it possible for you to

00:43:49   have what we currently have on a piece of glass on our wrist or in our pocket just be in the air in

00:43:56   front of us and that based on our eye movement and based on our hand movement we're going to be able

00:44:01   to whether it's a virtual phone virtual tablet or just a floating screen in front of us you know

00:44:07   there are going to be ways to do it where you have all that data and it's not going to start out that

00:44:11   way it's going to start out much more limited but I do think that this is at least if not if I'm not

00:44:16   certain I would say at least it's got the potential to be the thing that finally actually replaces the

00:44:21   smartphone as the thing that everybody uses it has that potential to be like your smartphone but all

00:44:27   you're doing is wearing a pair of glasses everybody's wearing a pair of glasses and that's how we all

00:44:32   have it are there societal implications to that you bet there are there are enormous societal

00:44:38   implications to that but and we should be concerned about it but I don't think that's going to

00:44:43   necessarily stop it from happening and you know to get back to your original point this is absolutely

00:44:48   why Facebook and Apple and every other tech company are looking at this stuff is because

00:44:53   nobody wants to be left on the side of the road when the next smartphone happens because you can

00:44:58   see what it did for Apple's business to be to have a seat at the table for that it's like I'm not

00:45:03   writing it off like I am a technology person right like I love this stuff and I really want to see

00:45:10   what Apple will do with this and I'm sure they will create something that will excite me in the

00:45:16   way that their products do excite me but I have these very strong feelings about this stuff and

00:45:26   I really hope that these concerns will be addressed evidently in whatever they do but my gut feeling

00:45:37   about this type of technology is currently not a good one so we're going to talk about this a lot

00:45:45   over the coming years but that's kind of like as a refresher because I don't know if I've gone into

00:45:51   detail this much on the show about kind of like why I think this technology is it concerns me and

00:45:58   I do mention it a lot and I'm mentioning it more so that's kind of where we stand on it.

00:46:03   No I think that's good I think and again this is the source of my optimism I guess it's also

00:46:09   the source of some of my pessimism which is I do feel like the smartphone thing happened with

00:46:15   no real thought given to how it was going to impact society and my hope is that the next

00:46:21   thing when it comes along we will have enough collective memory of what just happened that we

00:46:28   take some steps to changing our approach to it the fear would be that we won't remember all the

00:46:34   things that happened and we'll just rush out the products that completely break and you know weirdly

00:46:41   change our social interactions and everything that happens in the world and only after five or ten

00:46:47   years of that will we you know realize that we need to do parental controls and time tracking

00:46:53   and other things in order to make to try and fix all the things that the new tech broke.

00:46:58   It's like conspiracy theories feel more real when you can see them.

00:47:03   Sure I can see UFOs all the time now in my augmented reality classes.

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00:49:49   iOS and macOS betas are out. This came out I think just after we recorded last week. The thing that

00:49:56   people are most excited about with iOS 14.5 and watchOS 7.4 is it enables iPhone unlocking without

00:50:03   face ID when you're wearing a mask. You've tried this out right? I have. What do you think? I

00:50:11   immediately installed these betas and it's it's quite a thing because you got to install the iOS

00:50:16   beta and the watchOS beta to get it to work and it works. It's pretty great. In fact, I didn't

00:50:23   realize this. I actually take my car in for service and I'm standing wearing my mask in the in the

00:50:31   line or I guess I'm waiting for the guy to finish keying in whatever he needs to key in so that I

00:50:36   can pay and go and I just completely without thinking took my phone out of my pocket and

00:50:43   flipped it open and I thought oh mask and then my watch tapped me on the wrist and it unlocked and

00:50:49   I was using my my phone I was like oh real-world test of this thing and it's pretty great I mean

00:50:58   I've seen some people say oh well you know of course it's just for people with the Apple watch

00:51:02   well Apple's trying essentially this is something Apple's trying to use whatever tools it might have

00:51:08   at its disposal to make it easier to unlock your phone when you're wearing a mask and I applaud it

00:51:14   I wish it had happened you know last year but it works and you know if you're an Apple watch where

00:51:23   it's great news right it's gonna solve a problem then all of us are facing and I think in the long

00:51:30   run there's gonna be more mask wearing and there are parts of the world where there there's

00:51:33   traditionally been a lot of mask wearing certain times of the year for sure so in general I think

00:51:38   it's a good feature to add regardless of where Apple goes you know eventually maybe they bring

00:51:43   back touch ID as well but you know we're gonna have face ID phones and service for a long time

00:51:48   now I I've been trying to work out the answer to this as to how it's doing the unlocking and I

00:51:57   don't know if you know like is it doing anything to recognize that it's Jason like is it doing a

00:52:02   partial scan and so top of your face I my understanding is that it's it's at least detecting

00:52:11   that you're wearing a mask I talked to somebody who said that they tried I think was Dan Morin

00:52:17   tried to like put some like a napkin up in front of his face or something and it didn't work like

00:52:23   it may actually have they may have done some training on masks so that they get the sense of

00:52:28   like yeah I've got a partial match and and it may actually try to be partially matching what it knows

00:52:34   the face is and then also recognizing mask I I'm unclear on exactly what the behavior is here I'm

00:52:39   hoping that Apple publish a white paper or something I would like that too a better idea of

00:52:45   exactly what it's doing because I really want to know and and I'm not trying it's not for being

00:52:50   alarmist but it's like what is the security level now like how secure is this is this more or less

00:52:59   secure than my passcode like I don't know I mean trick because like the thing about face ID is just

00:53:04   how incredibly secure this is yeah well the truth is though it's by metrically authenticating you

00:53:10   based on your Apple watch being on your wrist so you will have either had to put in the Apple watch

00:53:16   password or have unlocked your phone with face ID or a passcode before while it was on your wrist to

00:53:25   get it to work so that's your passport right is the fact that you've got just as it is on the Mac

00:53:31   if you're using Apple watch to unlock things or Apple pay on the Mac is it the unlocked constantly

00:53:39   on your wrist Apple watch is your proof that you are who you are but it's like I'm intrigued though

00:53:45   like how how close does the watch need to be like for any and look these are stupid things to go

00:53:53   through it has to be closed they didn't they didn't specify but it has to be closed so they're doing

00:53:58   time of flight for sure which again is something that they've done with Apple watch unlock for a

00:54:02   bunch of other stuff too it that's how the Mac Apple watch unlock work so it's got to be very

00:54:07   close to the phone and it taps your wrist when it unlocks so if you had a bad person who within a

00:54:14   mask who took your phone away from you and then tried to unlock it even if they were close enough

00:54:19   to unlock it you would you would know right because you would get a tap that said I just

00:54:25   unlocked a phone and so you couldn't be caught unawares by that they seem to have stepped through

00:54:30   this as much as possible so in the end I will say if you've got a four-digit code on your watch and

00:54:35   a sophisticated password on your phone it means that you might be able to get into a phone by

00:54:44   stealing a phone and a watch and breaking the four-digit code on the watch right like that

00:54:48   would become your week your weaker link there I guess and I don't know whether it's trying to do

00:54:53   a partial match on your face and you know the robber doesn't match or whether it would would

00:54:58   succeed that part I don't know yeah and it's again I'm not doing this to paint these wacky and wild

00:55:05   scenarios which of course could happen to some people you know there's definitely something to

00:55:10   be said about that and but it's more I'm just intrigued you know like so I do hope that Apple

00:55:16   talk about it eventually right like what is the the distance and what is the kind of like the owner

00:55:25   of the security that kind of thing it's just intriguing to me I'm happy to hear it works I'm

00:55:30   surprised that it's now you know it's been a year like like it's not you know I'm sure this is very

00:55:39   difficult but it's not like this type of note this type of authentication is completely new to Apple

00:55:46   because you know that the watch and the phone on have an unlock between the two of them the the

00:55:52   watch unlocks the Mac my understanding and I think Gruber was the one who wrote about this is that

00:55:57   the the challenge was that they have a one-direction flow of authentication here which is you open your

00:56:04   iPhone when you're wearing your watch and your watch unlocks which is very convenient right that

00:56:09   it's nice but now they need to use the watch as proof that the phone is authenticated and they

00:56:17   already built it the other way and so at least according to what I read that was extra complexity

00:56:23   because you can't have it you know you have to you have to make sure that the flow is only happening

00:56:29   in one direction because you know you can't you're like well they unlocked this and now they unlock

00:56:33   that and now we're gonna unlock this again it's like well no how does so so there's some extra

00:56:37   work that that needs to go on there and I think honestly I think the big issue with all of these

00:56:41   features is that they want to make sure that they're really locked down security wise right

00:56:45   they any if any of these features becomes the hole by which people can break into an iPhone then they

00:56:51   failed so I think that a lot goes into the security stuff and that it makes these features slower to

00:56:58   arrive. iPad OS 14.5 got a horizontal boot screen finally so yeah I haven't seen that but um but

00:57:08   great like we we have been lamenting now they just need to change the logo on the back of it

00:57:13   we've been lamenting at least that on the on the magic keyboard the logo is the right way around

00:57:20   right like I always view the iPad as a horizontal device and not a vertical device but but yes

00:57:26   apparently for the first time you know when you boot if it's in horizontal orientation it shows

00:57:32   the Apple the right way up that's that's fun. And today there are reports that it was discovered by

00:57:38   intrepid users and we're on reddit that iOS 14.5 has the like the bones for changing your default

00:57:47   music app with Siri so you can ask Siri to play a song and it'll ask you which music app you want

00:57:54   to use and you can choose which ones so you could choose Spotify etc so I'm pleased that they're

00:58:01   adding this this is something that I want to see this roll out more and more and more to more types

00:58:06   of applications like not just the the small handful that Apple originally ordained at WWDC yep I want

00:58:13   to see this come out further and wider different types of apps. Big Sur 11.3 also came out you can

00:58:22   set home pod pairs as the default audio output if this is anything like Apple TV get ready for

00:58:28   issues oh my god Jason it's driving me bananas it's so bad it's this feature is so bad with the

00:58:36   Apple TV right like when it works is awesome because I have my two amazing speakers but every

00:58:41   day I have these issues where it pauses it gets out sync the audio starts playing on my TV and at

00:58:49   the home pods for a few seconds and then I you know I have to double quit the like after double

00:58:55   tap quit the app sometimes to get it to work I've had times where the audio gets out of sync and I

00:59:01   press home and the audio of the show is still playing until I restart the home pod like I have

00:59:07   so many problems with this feature I genuinely think I'm one of the only people in the world

00:59:12   that uses it I love it when it works but it really doesn't every day they it was fine for a while and

00:59:22   then it got bad again so I appreciate that Apple like Mac OS hasn't had support for you setting up

00:59:30   home pod as an output and it's so frustrating because it seems like it would make sense to

00:59:34   have a stereo pair home pod as your output my concern here is you know it's related to your

00:59:42   problems which is there's a lot of sound stuff going on in like Mac OS I wrote about this in

00:59:49   macworld last week Mac OS has a much more sophisticated sound subsystem than iOS which

00:59:54   is good because it allows us to use things like audio hijack and you know there's so many reasons

00:59:58   why it's good but it's way behind in terms of things like airplay to support and output to a

01:00:07   stereo pair of home pods and and there's other issues I have had huge issues with Mac OS and

01:00:14   air pods where they disconnect or they go into the weird like phone profile mode it's so bad I

01:00:25   don't know why this happens and there and there's all these issues there so I updated to the big

01:00:31   server 11.3 beta because I wanted to try this stuff out and it was a disaster I it just couldn't

01:00:38   play audio at all it would try and not and I couldn't change it and I couldn't open the sound

01:00:42   preferences pain it would just never open and I reverted back down to 11.2 and said well I'll see

01:00:49   you next time like I so I'm excited about the prospect of this but it sounds like this beta is

01:00:55   going to just break audio for a while until they fix all of this stuff and I hope that they don't

01:01:01   ship the final 11.3 with it as I mean obviously it's developed beta 1 but at the same time it was

01:01:06   super broken and I have concerns that there's already stuff that's really kind of broken and

01:01:11   sound in big Sur involving the air pods and I'll just put this on the list you know that said in

01:01:17   that macworld story I'll just mention it here I did have a moment because I'm using my m1 MacBook

01:01:24   Air more and I'm using their pods with it and discovering all these things that are broken and

01:01:29   I did have a very funny moment that happened that I wrote about in that story which is you know I'll

01:01:37   sit on the backyard and I'm writing on my iPad and I'm listening to music over my headphones and

01:01:42   then I'll close up my iPad and come inside and the music is still playing and I did that on the

01:01:47   Mac where I'm like I'm listening to music and I'm gonna go get something and I close the Mac and I

01:01:51   walk and the moment I close the Mac and music stops and I thought oh right sleep action sleep

01:02:00   like that anymore right on Apple silicon that doesn't the old-style sleep doesn't really make

01:02:04   sense anymore they've got the low energy cores and and power nap is always turned on and I had

01:02:10   that it was just a moment of realization where it's like yeah actually if I'm listening to music

01:02:13   and I close the screen you should just keep playing the music right like you should my iPad keeps

01:02:21   playing the music my iPhone keeps playing the music why wouldn't my Mac keep playing the music

01:02:24   and I suspect that that's a direction that they're going is that these Apple silicon Macs are gonna

01:02:29   end up having a very different conception of being asleep that's more like an iPad or an iPhone but

01:02:34   for now it just you know I've got a list of sound things and music things and other things with a

01:02:40   with a Mac OS that it even though it's more advanced in so many ways than iOS it's also so

01:02:47   behind in so many ways so maybe maybe Big Sur 11.3 will get better and solve some of these problems

01:02:56   but don't don't upgrade now I just don't don't do it so I want to move on to talk about ecam core

01:03:04   recorder for Skype this is very inside but there's no way we aren't talking about this so ecam are a

01:03:13   company that have long made audio based tools for the Mac one of their tools core recorder for Skype

01:03:20   loved by podcasters the world over yeah is going away I should say you can't read a bunch of

01:03:26   different utilities they made a really great utility to let you print to two printers that

01:03:31   didn't support air prints and they make and they make ecam live which is video it's like live stream

01:03:37   video software that's actually really great and it's Mac only and it's beautifully beautifully

01:03:41   done but call recorder for Skype for more than a decade has been the tool that basically every

01:03:46   podcaster started to use because everybody used Skype in the early days and how do you record and

01:03:51   here's a little tool that will automatically record your calls so that you can use those

01:03:55   recordings to make a podcast and last week I I knew that it wasn't working on Apple silicon so

01:04:01   I just did a check last week to see if they had an update on it and I and they linked to a tech note

01:04:07   and the tech note said we will not update this for Apple silicon and I emailed them and I said does

01:04:13   this mean that you're killing this product and they wrote back and said yes that's that's it

01:04:17   it's the end so I wrote about it apparently nobody else had noticed and that sort of like

01:04:22   a thing and then Gruber linked to it and then we you know they ended up writing a blog post

01:04:27   because they did after the fact they did it's just putting it in a tech note I was disappointed by

01:04:32   that like a company can decide to do whatever they want to do but if that was the decision that they

01:04:37   made the way that they communicated it was poor right just like it's in our support right yeah

01:04:44   they have my email right email me tell me I want to know so I can start to make decisions but they

01:04:51   wrote they ended up writing a great blog post they spoke I mean and as well anyone's used this that

01:04:57   uses this product that the last year they have had horrible problems of Skype so Skype will update

01:05:02   kills core recorder it's a reinstall like there's been some issues right so I think you know maybe

01:05:08   maybe they know the writings on the wall for them yeah you know and it's not fair to say like this

01:05:13   isn't the case where it's like well yeah but they haven't done any work on this product in a while

01:05:16   it was obviously not like I feel for them because they they when QuickTime the old QuickTime API's

01:05:22   went away they wrote a brand new that were about a new set of movie tools to edit the stuff and they

01:05:29   they did a new container file format for it so that it will continue to work without QuickTime

01:05:33   and they have made an effort to keep it working with Skype even though Skype tries to kill it

01:05:39   every single time it updates to the point where now it they actually intercept when you launch

01:05:45   Skype and say you need to reinstall call recorder now because it's not installed like they they they

01:05:51   made a real effort but I do feel like maybe part of this is that the writing was on the wall that

01:05:55   Skype really didn't want them to be there and that something in Apple silicon perhaps was the the

01:06:03   final the straw that broke the camel's back basically and they're like okay we're not gonna

01:06:06   do this anymore it was possible that it needed a rewrite and they just didn't want to put that

01:06:11   time in well they're spending all their time on live and live is a much better like growth

01:06:15   opportunity for them going forward right yeah it's in a field that people care about now which is

01:06:22   and they should be putting all their resources to that because there's lots of things it doesn't do

01:06:26   that it could do and it you know but it's already a fairly impressive app so I get it I totally get

01:06:33   it yeah but I would just say like I would pay them a stupid amount of money as a subscription

01:06:38   to keep using this app but never nevertheless like what made call recorders so good was that

01:06:43   it was very easy to have it record calls automatically and the benefit of that being

01:06:49   it's perfect backup because if me and Jason are on Skype it's recording it's recorded it's recording

01:06:55   my correct microphone I don't have to set my microphone that so that was one of the huge

01:07:01   things about call recorder and why I encouraged it to use is not only did it auto record so you

01:07:05   didn't have to remember to press record which people that was a point of failure also when you

01:07:11   set have somebody record in like QuickTime player which is great they have to select the right

01:07:15   microphone Skype call recorder if you knew Skype call recorder was running and you heard their

01:07:20   voice coming over the mic right microphone you knew you were gonna get the right microphone and

01:07:24   that's not the case with with other tools where you don't have that extra point of validation so

01:07:31   you know again if we were building a workflow today for podcasts would we would we do it that

01:07:36   way no but at that point everybody had Skype Skype was you know Skype was free everybody had it and

01:07:41   it was a plug-in that made the recording stuff way easier in an era where it was kind of hard

01:07:47   to get people to record their own audio and so it became the core of a workflow that that survived

01:07:56   for more than a decade really I mean we're all using Skype for podcasting before Microsoft bought

01:08:04   Skype right so like it and back then long time ago it was the only thing realistically it really was

01:08:10   to do what we're doing and then you know once you wrote about a piece called the mortality of

01:08:17   software which is such a but like strong title but really points out is like once you are in a

01:08:23   workflow you don't want to change it like if something's working don't disrupt it and you

01:08:29   keep adding little bits on top of it so you create this thing that is the word I used is is

01:08:34   bricolage which is a fun word but it's like you just kind of like a bunch of garbage just kind of

01:08:38   gets piled together but like it's you've placed all there and it works for you and it's built up

01:08:43   over a decade and it's it's like a beaver dam or something right it's like I put all this stuff

01:08:47   together all these sticks and everything and now I've got it and then and so you keep using it

01:08:53   because it's it is this is where you know everybody all these workflows have inertia right it's like

01:08:58   well I've been using it so I'm gonna keep using it but that's where the inertia comes from also

01:09:02   is that you you keep assembling this structure of stuff that is this is how I do it and then you

01:09:08   have a case like this where it's like yeah you think that that part is gone it's just it's or

01:09:13   and it's not gone it still works but it works on Intel Macs and and doesn't work on Apple silicon

01:09:18   Macs so the writings on the wall right it's it's if you buy an Intel or an Apple silicon Mac you

01:09:22   can't use call recorder so thus it's basically over so for me my typical feeling about this

01:09:29   stuff is when something changes when the writing is on the wall I want to move as soon as possible

01:09:33   yeah I don't want to find myself in a situation where I'm now stuck without a plan well or like

01:09:40   here let me give you an example which is for various reasons I am recording today on my MacBook

01:09:46   Air so I can't use that like here it is I can't use call recorder because I'm on an Apple silicon

01:09:52   MacBook Air so luckily this had happened well this is and this is my point is that so if I was relying

01:09:59   on a workflow that had it at its core I would have to every time I used this different computer I'd

01:10:04   be like oh can't use that got to come up with something else and yeah it's been a backup

01:10:08   recording for a while for us right like audio hijack has been the primary recording for most

01:10:13   of the podcasters I know for a while but there's still lots of people who just rely on call

01:10:18   recorder and we still use it as mine like yeah audio hijack is my backup core core is your backup

01:10:24   yeah the one I used yeah so so uh but but now that we know what's going away it's like well I

01:10:31   can't stay with it I need to come up with I need to find a new solution that will work and follow

01:10:36   me across every Mac that I use so as of today upgrade is now recorded over zoom that's true

01:10:45   so now why zoom you may ask and please don't stop you stop right now with that feedback where you're

01:10:53   telling me to use whatever app is Chrome based or whatever you know the reason we're using zoom

01:11:01   there's actually quite a few reasons we both already have paid accounts yep so we already

01:11:07   have accounts it's an app which I want I don't want to use anything in a web browser I just

01:11:13   don't want to do that I don't want to use any app that is just for podcasting because there's a lot

01:11:21   of VC money being poured into podcasting right now mm-hmm and that bubbles gonna burst at some point

01:11:26   so I don't want to put my all my eggs into a basket of some application that might go away so

01:11:33   I want to use something like Skype which is we're not using it for what is intended for which probably

01:11:38   means it's gonna stick around and I'm honestly you look at any kind of app right now zoom is

01:11:43   here for the long haul because yeah like it or not it's gonna be here yeah yeah exactly zoom now

01:11:49   means meeting in the same way that Google now means such right like it it's embedded but one

01:11:55   of the great things about zoom compared to all of the other things out there before you say to me

01:11:59   what about slack what about FaceTime what about but it has built-in recording into the application

01:12:06   and it does it automatically it does and the reason that I use it also it works on its cross-platform

01:12:14   including mobile which is you know there are some non cross-platform solutions or just Mac and

01:12:22   Windows and I because I've been looking for tools for this for a while now of like we is there

01:12:27   another way to do this is there an alternative to Skype and I you know I can't get everything that

01:12:33   I want but one of the things that I think you need to constantly be looking at is does it work on an

01:12:38   iPad and just work because that would be good like it would be really good if it also worked on an

01:12:42   iPad and an iPhone because sometimes you do need to call somebody who only has one of those devices

01:12:46   but the way zooms recording works and this is why I've been using it for podcasts for a couple of

01:12:51   years for the incomparable is although it makes a the recording that it makes is not local on on

01:12:59   like everybody's end so it's got potentially some like bandwidth cloud-based artifacts in it you

01:13:06   know if they've got low bandwidth you may get dropouts and things like that but that said it

01:13:11   the recording it hands you as the host is an individual track for every single person on the

01:13:17   call and that's super important if you're gonna edit audio after the fact mm-hmm so that's the

01:13:24   perfect it's actually better than call recorder which will only hand you your personal track and

01:13:29   then the audio of everybody else on the call now for two people it's fairly simple but if you have

01:13:34   three people like connected or you have a four people like clockwise and then you have incomparable

01:13:39   which has like 90 people on it at one time it helps to have that it's a huge boost to have that

01:13:45   and and right now I'd say zoom is the best in class because of that even though there are lots

01:13:51   of issues with zoom for podcasting that's sort of what I had already settled on and since I have a

01:13:56   paid account you have a paid account you only need one the whole only the host needs to have a paid

01:13:59   account but for those reasons I think zoom sounds better than Skype - honestly I think it actually

01:14:05   sounds better while we're you sound much clearer to me today and yeah then I'm used to mm-hmm

01:14:11   likewise I mean I am now using audio hijack now is my main recorder and zoom is the backup as the

01:14:19   backup I want something that has a backup and I'm very you know I'm very happy to have a solution

01:14:26   that I'm already using and already paying for right so mm-hmm but it's just it's a shame yeah

01:14:30   and and I'm open to change right like I I would love to find that ideal solution that is runs

01:14:39   cross-platform including mobile and records everybody's files locally and then transmits

01:14:44   them over the cloud like I could come up with a list and I have and there's nothing that does

01:14:48   all of them right now and if we throw your web browser thing in the mix then it's there's really

01:14:53   nothing that does all of them but zoom comes the closest at this point and so that's where we are

01:14:58   for now but you know and my just to bring this back around to something that isn't podcasting

01:15:03   inside baseball it is this is the story of you being a computer user right is a new platform

01:15:10   comes out or a new operating system comes out and you want to update but this app that you're using

01:15:14   like I think a lot of people went through this with the 32-bit apocalypse right where you had

01:15:20   an app that you've been using and it wasn't really being updated and you had that moment where you

01:15:24   thought oh no I can't use it anymore which is I think your approach of like well if it's not

01:15:30   gonna blast into the future I'm gonna get rid of it now is is another way to approach that which is

01:15:36   I'm not gonna wait for the moment where I want to do a an update to a new Apple operating system and

01:15:41   now it breaks or in this case I don't want to buy a new Mac and realize that now my call recorder

01:15:45   setup is broken because the new Mac is Apple silicon and so now I can't use it anymore but

01:15:51   you know I got a little philosophical on that piece the truth is that you know nothing is forever

01:15:56   and software generally I mean there's software the institutional software that will last forever but

01:16:01   most of the stuff that we do it we use is like more independent kind of software smaller batch

01:16:06   software and that stuff does come and go because the people who make it come and go and their

01:16:11   livelihoods change and they or they get retired or our friend James Thompson pointed out the there's

01:16:17   a literally a story of somebody who wrote a piece of software for the Mac who got hit by a bus he

01:16:22   literally got hit by a bus and he was fine he was fine but like it's not even a metaphorical bus

01:16:27   like we're all people and a more on a more happy note they could also just choose to retire right

01:16:33   like if the author of your favorite software says I'm out of here I'm gonna go on a beach somewhere

01:16:37   thanks for all the you know license fees I'm out of here I'm retired that's it right that's it so

01:16:45   all you can really do is accept that change will happen try to be open to it view it as an

01:16:55   opportunity like I did in the end I think this is an opportunity we could have switched to zoom a

01:16:59   long time ago and I think it would have been fine I think it would have been good but this was the

01:17:04   opportunity to do it and so here we are and and I'll be open to other opportunities but I think

01:17:11   that's all you can do because in the end you know it nothing is forever and and maybe it's good to

01:17:18   look at that beaver dam of workflow that you built up over 10 years and go well like I had a moment

01:17:25   where I was super sad about call recorder dying and it was followed by a moment of well of

01:17:30   opportunity which was like oh well with call recorder not in the mix like I can revisit all

01:17:39   sorts of assumptions with that because that was the base assumption and with it gone well it was

01:17:45   based on Skype being the only tool available and then everything came from there but with Skype

01:17:50   call recorder gone like Skype's been lousy for a long time we've been like yeah but call recorder

01:17:54   so you know in the end it is an opportunity for change and nobody likes change but it's inevitable

01:17:59   so might as well go with it this episode is brought to you by hover one of our longest running

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01:19:26   that I love that with hover you don't have to they have a great user experience their UI is fantastic

01:19:32   to use I love just how easy it is to forward a domain somewhere else most of the domains that I

01:19:37   buy I'm forwarding to somewhere you know like I have a cortex much calm mic dot live these are

01:19:43   domains that I really love they're great brands for me I registered them all on hover and they

01:19:47   push off to other places online and that's really great it's like and I've one up like get upgrade

01:19:53   plus calm which we have goes to our upgrade plush join page and all of these are registered on

01:19:57   hover I have an idea I go register it and pushed off to where it needs to go it's fantastic we know

01:20:02   that you love great user experiences is one of the reasons that I recommend hover is so easy to use

01:20:07   so simple to get what you need done so go buy your domain start using it today go to hover comm slash

01:20:14   upgrade and you will get a 10% discount on all new purchases as hover comm slash upgrade to get a 10%

01:20:21   discount on all new purchases make a name for yourself with hover thanks to hover for their

01:20:27   support of this show and relay FM all right let's do some hashtag ask upgrade questions to finish

01:20:32   out today's show the first one comes from Nick and Nick wants to know Jason do you use finger

01:20:37   guns when you make the pew pew sound absolutely not I just lean into the microphone and the lasers

01:20:43   emerge do you ever have any kind of imagination that goes along with it like is there an image

01:20:47   in your head or is it just so built into you now it's like just like a pavlovian response it's just

01:20:58   that it's like the theme song for ask upgrade is my lasers I'm happy that you think of it that way

01:21:03   Ryan asks do you still think that the displays on future max will feature rounded corners considering

01:21:10   the design changes that came with big sir yes do you think we're gonna get that this year with the

01:21:19   new if like any Mac has a new design you think it will get well the round the first thing is

01:21:24   they could they could just put the rounded corners on in Big Sur right like they could just do it

01:21:28   there there's software that you can get that will just round the corners for you right like you can

01:21:34   do that if you want I think it looks better with the rounded corners to be honest but you know I

01:21:38   I'm it's a direction Apple is going with its other hardware so I think it would not you know surprise

01:21:45   me at all that they would do that on the Mac they could do it the software instead of hardware but

01:21:50   yeah I think it looks better the little pixels in the corners I don't want them I don't want to see

01:21:56   like this couple of everything is rounded in Big Sur except the corners of the screen yeah so I

01:22:04   don't get it and and and not just in Big Sur in the window but then you look at the outside of the

01:22:09   displays and they're all curved on the laptops so it's it's a very weird sharp edge amid many curves

01:22:16   but it's possible that they're waiting to reduce the bezel because that bezel could get a lot

01:22:22   smaller I was looking at the my MacBook Air the other day and thinking you know from the

01:22:25   perspective of my old MacBook Air the bezel on this thing is so much smaller but it's also from

01:22:31   the perspective of like an iPad or an iPhone it's still enormous so there's more room to be eked out

01:22:38   of the the display by pushing the bezel further and further out so maybe that's an opportunity to

01:22:46   put a curve in there too I don't know some great real-time follow-up in the relay FM discord from

01:22:52   Ryan who's put a link to cortex animated episode 109 it's also a time stamped link so I'll put it

01:23:00   in the show notes this is a in the illustrative look of Jason during the pew pew pew sounds I

01:23:10   think you're kind of Godzilla like in this animation I wasn't aware that I was a character

01:23:18   in cortex animated and then I watched cortex animated and I am yes it's a Godzilla like robot

01:23:26   me emerging from the sea to fire finger lasers at a city and I'm just watching cortex animated

01:23:32   you know just as you do and I'm like wait wait a second was that was that me and I went back

01:23:38   I'm like yeah that is me that is me as a robot monster firing lasers so it was great a very

01:23:43   talented animator hatred boutique asked me about that and I said yes do it and if I got to tell

01:23:48   you yeah I'm pleased it was a nice surprise yeah I I am glad that it was a complete surprise while

01:23:55   I was watching the thing because what are the chances that somebody isn't going to say that

01:23:59   you weren't going to say or that a viewer isn't going to say but nobody told me about it and I

01:24:04   was just watching and I had that moment it was delightful Phil asks I got an m1 MacBook Air this

01:24:12   week upgrading from a 2012 15 inch MacBook Pro my word what must feel like Wow this gives you an

01:24:20   example of how big of an update this is for Phil Phil's question is I've been having difficulty

01:24:24   with dragging files whenever I go to drag a file force touch kicks in should I turn it off okay so

01:24:30   so so Phil is an aggressive button masher yeah clearly well the thing is if you are used to the

01:24:39   old trackpad style which had just the one point I've actually Asian yep you probably weren't aware of

01:24:47   how hard you were pressing mm-hmm yeah probably so probably so my answer Phil is I'm looking at

01:24:53   my trackpad settings right now I have force click and happy haptic feedback turned off right and

01:25:01   that solves it so this is off what Phil wanted to know if they should just turn it off so what I'll

01:25:08   say is one thing you should do is just they have a light medium and firm clicking yeah maybe try out

01:25:14   those three options and see if you like that but I will tell you force the force clicking action

01:25:21   actions not that not that great really not not super important but yeah that I highly recommend

01:25:27   people go to the trackpad system preferences pane because it's a surprising amount of things you can

01:25:33   do there you you'll learn some see turn on silent clicking which is great because trackpads Apple

01:25:38   like juices the click because remember they don't click anymore not for real they sense the pressure

01:25:43   and they vibrate and make a sound and it makes it feel like it's a click but it's not it's all

01:25:49   a lie it's in your head and you can turn on silent clicking and then the audio portion the fake audio

01:25:54   goes away it still makes a noise because the vibration makes a noise but it's less of a noise

01:25:59   and I actually have silent clicking turned on because why would I want more noise oh my word

01:26:05   I didn't know about silent clicking right that's totally clicking yeah and then I have force click

01:26:10   and haptic feedback turned off and then the click settings where you can go light medium and firm

01:26:13   the beauty of having a fake click instead of a real click is you can set how hard you need to

01:26:19   push for the click to be registered which is great and then of course there's like tracking

01:26:23   speed and and and other stuff that's in there it's also the only is it the only Apple preference

01:26:28   pane that has videos that auto play in it which is weird I know why they do it but it's also kind

01:26:33   of weird but there's a lot you can do with modern track pads in terms of because they're not real

01:26:38   like right because they're fake the magic trackpad 2 and modern Apple laptop ones where I mean they're

01:26:43   not fake but like they don't depress in order to make a click it's all vibrations and sounds

01:26:50   and stuff because it's measuring the force pushed on the surface instead so try it out Phil and

01:26:56   you'll find a way to make yourself happy with your with your clicking and your dragging that's

01:27:02   that's where you also turn on just tapping rather than to select which I also like I hate that like

01:27:08   that but I like that tap to click it's the worst finally Ryan asks do you think Apple have added

01:27:14   the Apple watch authentication for unlocking your phone because they've realized they cannot deliver

01:27:19   touch ID this year I I say no because I think they're like I said earlier in the show there

01:27:29   are a lot of face ID phones out there and even if you were coming with a face ID iPhone in the fall

01:27:36   you're gonna have a lot of face ID or a touch ID phone in the fall you're gonna have a lot of face

01:27:41   ID phones that are still out there and you want to make those people happy also it's February so

01:27:47   let's assume this feature ships in March sometime like that's good that's really good for a lot of

01:27:55   reasons so I I think I think no I get the conspiracy which is like well if we if we do

01:28:04   this feature and we deliver touch ID in the fall then we're kind of undercutting a reason to upgrade

01:28:09   which is for touch ID I don't think it comes to that I think this is really about getting something

01:28:14   out there that they probably started working on last year at some point and they only got it

01:28:19   delivered now because there are so many phones out there that are are on face ID and and you know

01:28:26   don't work with masks so I think it's that simple it's fun though that there's gonna be another big

01:28:31   feature released around this time of year you know we got the trackpad support last year around

01:28:37   around this kind of time and it was like late February early March I think and now the I reckon

01:28:44   that's probably when we're gonna get this is late February early March I reckon before before 14

01:28:49   point five comes out it seems kind of like the round of time if you would like to send it in a

01:28:55   question for us to answer on the show just send out a tweet with the hashtag ask upgrade or use

01:28:59   question mark ask upgrade in the relay FM members discord that you get access to if you sign up for

01:29:04   upgrade plus where you also get lots of fantastic content we were talking I think maybe last time

01:29:10   about the interviews that you were doing for the 20 max of 2020 you posted another one of those

01:29:15   at John Syracuse you get access to that feed as well if you're an upgrade plus subscriber go to

01:29:20   get upgrade plus.com to sign up and you'll also get upgrade about any ads and we have additional

01:29:25   content each and every week thank you so much if you have signed up to help support the show I

01:29:31   would also like to thank hover door - and fit bod for their support of this episode and for you for

01:29:38   listening we'll be back next time you can find Jason online he's at six colors calm and at J Snell

01:29:43   also the incomparable calm and I am at I Myke I am y-k-e until next week say goodbye Jason snow

01:29:51   goodbye my curly

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