339: Dogcow and Spinning Rainbow Cursor in Finderland


00:00:00   [Music]

00:00:08   From Relay FM, this is Upgrade episode 339, and today's show is brought to you by ExpressVPN,

00:00:15   HelloFresh, and Spokes. My name is Myke Hurley and I'm joined by Jason Snow. Hello, Jason Snow.

00:00:21   Hello, Fresh. I mean, hello, Myke Hurley.

00:00:23   Hello, you can call me Fresh if you like. It's a fun nickname.

00:00:26   Okay. All right, babe.

00:00:28   Interesting. #snowtalkquestion this week comes from Don and Don wants to know, Jason,

00:00:34   what is your favorite flavor or kind of tea?

00:00:37   Ah, tea questions. They're almost as bad as weather questions. I like black tea. I like just

00:00:44   pure black tea. My morning tea rotation is I have an Irish breakfast, an English breakfast, and I

00:00:54   have an Assam full leaf, but they're all just black tea. I like black tea with a little, uh,

00:01:01   some would say a lot. I would say a little bit of honey.

00:01:04   Oh, okay. You put honey in your black tea.

00:01:07   I put honey in my tea. That's my, that's my, my go-to is honey in my tea. My wife puts milk in

00:01:13   her tea. Occasionally, she will be very nice and bring me tea. And it's always funny because I seem

00:01:20   to know innately how many squeezes of the honey bear it takes to pop properly honey in my tea.

00:01:26   And she's gotten it in her head because she doesn't use honey that I am a honey maniac who

00:01:32   puts way too much honey in his tea. And so whenever she brings me the tea, it is like honey with tea in

00:01:38   it. It's very kind of her, but it's also hilarious. Oh, interesting. That wasn't what I was expecting

00:01:43   you were going to say. I think initially she put it a little and I was like, oh, I need to put more

00:01:48   honey in this. And now she just overdoes it. And it's funny. So.

00:01:51   All right. What, uh, so you, you said English breakfast, Irish breakfast and a psalm.

00:01:58   What, what, what takes you to this psalm that feels like the outlier of the three?

00:02:01   No. Well, I got it. It's just a, it's a full leaf. So it's, um, it's just longer. And,

00:02:06   and they, they, it's actually easier to clean cause they're, they're bigger. They're not

00:02:10   little chunks. Um, they, they, I think they, they chop them up into little bits for it to, um, so

00:02:16   that it's stronger that it, it works faster, but I use the tea robot. So it's the same amount of time.

00:02:21   Every time it's just for variety. I could literally just take the English breakfast

00:02:25   and order pounds and pounds of it and just use that. Um, I'm I just, I vary it a little,

00:02:31   but it's so slight that I think if you made three cups of the three different kinds and put them in

00:02:36   front of me, I probably couldn't tell the difference. If you would like to send in a

00:02:40   snow talk question to help us open a show, uh, just send in a tweet with the hashtag snow talk,

00:02:45   or use question marks, no talking the relay FM members discord some follow up because I

00:02:49   just wanted to follow up on it. Zoom work well last week. So we're using it today. It's the way

00:02:55   we're going to record going forward. I'm going to start slowly transitioning all of my other shows

00:03:01   to zoom, but I'm waiting for like, I'm waiting to feel comfortable with the changed workflow,

00:03:07   which is what has happened, right? Like I still have to get not like set.

00:03:11   Well, this is how I feel, uh, as, as the host, you want to like have it down so that when you

00:03:16   introduce it to your other shows, it's as painless as possible because you've got it down and like in

00:03:21   my editing process and all that kind of stuff. Uh, and just kind of getting that all nice and set,

00:03:27   but I'm back in my office now last week, I was not, I was an undisclosed location. So it wasn't

00:03:34   the zoom that made it sound different. Even though it was all my same hardware, it was in a totally

00:03:39   different room. It was room, not zoom, but now I'm back in my own office. So this is going to be

00:03:51   a pretty upstream focused episode today. So I have some upstream headlines then we're going to talk

00:03:59   about for all mankind because there's some interesting stuff going on there as it debuts

00:04:02   later on this week. And then, uh, we're going to talk about the fracas that you started around, uh,

00:04:09   Apple TV, uh, last week. Yeah. A fracas, fracas, as we might say in America, you got a fracas,

00:04:16   real fracas going on over there. I don't know if it's fracas here in the UK, but I, I, I, I don't

00:04:22   like the way that sounds. So I say fracas instead. Maybe that makes me foolish. It's a hubbub. It's

00:04:27   a hubbub. Uh, uh, yeah. One of those kerfuffle. Apple TV plus has secured four Golden Globe

00:04:35   nominations this year. I think they had a couple last year, but they got four this time. Uh, Ted

00:04:41   Lasso for best TV series, musical comedy, Jason Sudeikis for best performance, Wolfwalkers for

00:04:47   best animated film and Bill Murray for best supporting actor in on the rocks, which I haven't

00:04:52   seen yet, but I do want to say, uh, do you think you're going to win any of these? Well,

00:04:58   it's the Golden Globes, so you can't take them seriously and they do weird stuff,

00:05:01   but I think that's why it's quite possible that they will win. Um, because the Golden

00:05:07   Globes do wacky pics. They do things that are new. They like to be seen embracing the new.

00:05:13   Right. And that's why I think that, um, I, the, what I've read is that the critic's consensus is

00:05:20   that Wolfwalkers is probably the best animated film of the year. So it may, it may win not for

00:05:27   wacky reasons, but for good reasons. And we, I think it's a real contender for the Oscar. Now,

00:05:32   Apple doesn't get the statue, right? It's the makers of the producer of the film would get the

00:05:36   statue, but it would still be a feather in Apple's cap. Well, even more so Apple's not even listed

00:05:41   because, uh, it was entered into, I think, consideration before Apple picked it up. Yeah,

00:05:46   right. Exactly. Apple's basically just distributed it. They did a distribution deal because of COVID

00:05:51   and all of that. However, the Ted Lasso picks, I would think that there's a real possibility that

00:05:56   one of those Ted Lasso, uh, nominations is going to be a win because of how wacky the Golden Globes

00:06:01   is and how they want to do stuff that's new and not well known and Ted Lasso, they often will pick

00:06:06   things that are kind of more like cult breaking out. People are starting to talk about it. And I

00:06:11   think the Golden Globes voters want to look cool and in the know. And so if they say, you know,

00:06:18   Oh yes, everybody else thinks that these shows are the best comedy, but we know it's Ted Lasso.

00:06:22   Then they look cool. So it wouldn't shock me if Ted Lasso or especially like Jason Sudeikis

00:06:28   might get something there, but we'll, we'll see. I think there's a chance though. I think there's

00:06:32   a real chance more than I would say the Emmys because the Emmys tend to be not always,

00:06:37   but they tend to be much more kind of on inertia. And when you win Emmys, like a lot of small shows

00:06:43   that are cult followings that are really great, but aren't widely known tend to get their Emmy

00:06:48   nominations and wins. Like the last thing about Schitt's Creek, it was the last season that got

00:06:54   the nominations. Schitt's Creek is the issue, I think for the Golden Globes too. I just looked

00:06:58   it up. They've never even been nominated for a Golden Globe before. And so like Schitt's Creek

00:07:04   cleaned up at the Emmys because the show was over. Right. So, and it was, and it is incredible.

00:07:09   So they were kind of like, we're just gonna give it all the awards and they're nominated again in

00:07:13   every category. So I think Schitt's Creek really is like probably the biggest contender here.

00:07:20   It's going to be a challenge. I read a story that handicapped the Golden Globes and said that they

00:07:23   thought that Jason Sudeikis or Ted Lasso really did have a chance because there's, there's two

00:07:27   ways to go with the Golden Globes, which is the obvious choice, which is Schitt's Creek. And

00:07:31   there's the, oh, it's the Golden Globes. They're going to do something wacky and that was, and

00:07:35   that's Ted Lasso. So it's, it's possible. But, um, my point about the Emmys is more that if you

00:07:42   really love Ted Lasso and it continues to be great for the next three seasons, then stay tuned for

00:07:47   season three, when they will finally get an Emmy nomination as the, as they finish up and are on

00:07:52   their way out the door. Cause that seems to be how it works for a lot of the, the Emmy stuff.

00:07:56   Disney+ has now hit 95 million paid subscribers. They're up 8 million more in a month when they,

00:08:04   they, they just reported this, uh, cause they, they, we knew the number from their courtly

00:08:09   earnings and now they've hit 95. So they've just told everyone they've done it. Um, because why not?

00:08:14   And this made me want to ask, cause I think one of the, potentially one of the drivers is

00:08:19   WandaVision. Uh, no spoilers. Have you been watching WandaVision? No. Yes, I have. Oh,

00:08:23   okay. Well, you might not have, I don't know. Um, no. In fact, it is, um, I've been really

00:08:28   thinking about this as the Disney+ original content strategy. So you and I have talked

00:08:34   for a while now about we knew Disney+ was coming. They said it was coming and then it arrived and

00:08:39   we're like, okay. But after the Mandalorian finished, like there's content, but it's the

00:08:44   library and like, what is their original content thing? And again, you can do a service with,

00:08:48   with a library like Disney's, you can do a service like that. But one of the ways you motivate people

00:08:52   to sign up is original content rolling out. And so maybe WandaVision and the buzz around WandaVision

00:08:58   has been part of it. This is the, for those who don't know, it's a Marvel show. It's the first

00:09:02   show, uh, set essentially officially done by Marvel studios. The other TV shows that they've

00:09:08   done recently were by a different arm, a TV arm of Marvel that was not run by the people who made

00:09:14   the movies and didn't really feature the people who were in the movies with a couple of footnotes.

00:09:19   Um, and now it's sort of like characters from the movies that you recognize and WandaVision is the

00:09:23   first one it's got Scarlet Witch and Vision and some other characters from Marvel universe in it.

00:09:29   And the reason I was thinking about this is, uh, Mandalorian became, it's actually our only,

00:09:36   with our 16 year old son, our family appointment television. Like on Friday night, we all sit down

00:09:45   together and watched, you know, we watched the Mandalorian and we transferred that right over

00:09:51   into WandaVision. We sit down on Friday night as a family and we watch WandaVision together.

00:09:56   And, you know, we watch like movies. We'll be like, Oh, Julian, we're going to do this movie

00:10:00   and, you know, come and watch it and all that. We do that. And he'll choose, he can choose,

00:10:03   right? He's interested in this. Right. But TV shows, not so much. In fact,

00:10:07   one of the things that we will reliably watch with him is, um, is Marvel movies, old and new.

00:10:13   He's got the stuff he's interested in the stuff he's not, and that's fine. And we've got the stuff

00:10:17   we're interested in. He's not, and that's fine. So what strikes me about WandaVision is following

00:10:23   Mandalorian, I'm like, we've had a pretty good run here with, there've been a little bit of a gap,

00:10:26   but not much where you just sort of have this appointment viewing of there's always a new,

00:10:31   uh, Disney show on a Friday night. And that is exactly what we were talking about,

00:10:35   which is you want to have a situation where you always have to be subscribed to Disney plus,

00:10:40   and you feel you're getting your money's worth because there's always appointment viewing of a

00:10:44   new original plus your access to the catalog. And I was thinking about this cause WandaVision's

00:10:50   only got three episodes left. So three more weeks of WandaVision before it's done. And I was like,

00:10:56   oh, but this has been so nice. And then I thought, yeah, but Falcon and the Winter Soldier starts in

00:11:02   March. I believe it is the next week. It might be a week after, but it's, it's right there.

00:11:09   And because the pandemic, it's not all going to flow quite as seamlessly as that,

00:11:14   but that is the idea for all of these streaming services, especially the ones with franchises.

00:11:19   So if you can imagine, and I looked it up on, on Wikipedia afterward, um, you know,

00:11:24   there's this Marvel show and there's also this Marvel show that's coming, um, this summer. And

00:11:28   there's this Marvel show and this other Marvel show that are coming this fall. And there's also

00:11:32   the book of Boba Fett that's coming in December. And, you know, I think the idea is that you will

00:11:41   not be able to get away from Disney plus for even a month as new Marvel and star Wars and other

00:11:47   originals come out. And we're loving it. And it immediately makes me think, you know, Disney plus

00:11:56   is a destination and I'll just say it as a lifelong star Trek fan, that is absolutely what CBS all

00:12:02   access, which is about to turn into paramount. Plus, like we said last week, that's what they're

00:12:06   doing with star Trek is the same thing is they want to have, and they haven't been able to do

00:12:10   it. They're in a lull now actually because of the pandemic, but you know, their goal

00:12:14   is that there should, you know, if not every week, like. With, with very minimal gaps,

00:12:19   there should be a star Trek show rolling out on paramount plus. And that if you are, if you want

00:12:24   that stream of entertainment, easy, just sign up for paramount plus and you get it. And this is

00:12:28   part, it's not the whole strategy. It's not a star Trek streaming service. This is not a Marvel

00:12:33   streaming service, but it helps one set of audience members, uh, be welded to your service. So I I'm,

00:12:42   and I'm excited about that too, because it means that we'll have Friday, uh, TV night with my son,

00:12:46   um, for a while now because of Disney plus. So, um, so yeah, I'm loving Wanda vision, um,

00:12:52   for people who haven't tried it yet, it is. Uh, have you watched it, Myke? Yeah, I'm up to date.

00:12:57   Okay. Um, again, we're not going to spoil anything, but I'll speak broadly about it and say,

00:13:01   what's interesting about Wanda vision is that because it's not a movie, they're using the

00:13:09   episode by episode week by week format to tell an ongoing story, but also have the individual

00:13:16   episodes feel unique. Yeah. I've never seen a TV show like this one. It's it's peculiar,

00:13:23   um, in a good way. I will also say that its commitment to its premise is so strong

00:13:30   that the first couple episodes you're like, what am I watching? You know, it's really good. They

00:13:35   did the whole, like, here's three and then we'll go every week. I think it was two, they dropped

00:13:40   two and it's the very end of the second episode where it sort of like pulls back the curtain a

00:13:46   little and says, this is actually the show you're watching. Yeah. Um, and, and that's why they dropped

00:13:51   those two episodes. I think is that if people had just seen episode one, they'd be like, I is,

00:13:55   is it a sitcom now? Because that's basically the premise of it, but, uh, I think it's really

00:14:00   brilliant. Uh, I've loved it. And if this is, and this was not originally their launch show,

00:14:05   Falcon and winter soldier was going to be their launch show, but because of the pandemic,

00:14:08   they weren't done shooting it and they had to go back and remount the filming to get it done. Um,

00:14:14   whereas this one was apparently close enough that they were able to get it ready to go and get it

00:14:19   out the door. Um, it's, it's probably weirder and less conventional than they wanted to launch

00:14:25   Marvel on Disney plus then Falcon and winter soldier will probably be much more Falcon

00:14:30   winter soldier is very like this. Yeah. This is a Marvel movie kind of. Yeah. They did a trailer

00:14:34   for it and we got to the end and Lauren said to me, wait, that's not a movie. It's a TV show.

00:14:41   Cause it might as well be a movie. One division looks like, I mean, it, it, it, the look of it

00:14:46   all. I mean, it's fantastic friend of the show, Todd Visserie tweeted, um, last week,

00:14:52   something to the effect of you need to stop talking about movie effects and TV effects.

00:15:00   Because I realized the budgets may be different. I don't know any of the behind the scenes

00:15:05   business, but I'll tell you what is on screen. It's a Marvel movie, right? Like it doesn't feel

00:15:10   like they cheaped out and it's a really bad effect like that you wouldn't see in a movie.

00:15:16   I just don't feel like it does. I feel like they've, this doesn't feel like a cheap

00:15:20   version of Marvel. This feels like a Marvel movie being told in installments instead.

00:15:25   And that is, and not necessarily from storytelling. Like I said, I think the individual

00:15:30   episodes do, uh, have their own feel and the weekly release lets you talk about like, what

00:15:36   did we just see in a way that's very effective, but it, it, uh, Falcon and winter soldier feels

00:15:43   much more, uh, conventional in the sense that it does feel kind of like it's a Marvel movie

00:15:48   chopped up into, I don't know what it is, six episodes, I think six pieces. Um, but, uh, I,

00:15:53   I think, I think it's good. And I think it's a good sign that the Marvel studios people are really

00:15:58   are bringing their a game. Clearly we know from the message from the top at Disney from Disney's,

00:16:02   uh, previous CEO and their current CEO that, uh, Disney pluses is basically a huge part of

00:16:09   Disney's future and that theatrical will continue as well, but that they are considering Disney plus,

00:16:14   uh, in some ways their primary output medium output source. So, well, it's all going there

00:16:23   eventually. So it's important, right? Exactly. So of course, Marvel studios has gotten the message,

00:16:27   which is do not make, you know, second rate stuff, make your, bring your a game to this.

00:16:34   And they seem to be, so I've been enjoying it. Uh, HBO max is going to be launching in some

00:16:40   international markets in June with more set for later in the year. Um, there's,

00:16:45   it seems pretty localized the June launch to, I believe it's, uh, Latin America, uh, mostly,

00:16:52   and then it's going to be some of the Nordic countries, some of Europe, um, later on in the

00:16:56   year, the UK is not on this list at all, uh, which I'm not surprised about. I think we spoke

00:17:02   about it before. Um, I hate the HBO and sky deal is pretty linked, but as I said previously, okay,

00:17:11   but what about the original content? Right. That's the issue because currently like we can get all of

00:17:18   HBO's content in the UK through sky. And we subscribe to a service here called now TV,

00:17:24   which is a sky is purely digital, uh, arm, which I've spoken about before. Uh, and we

00:17:30   subscribe to the entertainment package and we can watch shows and all that kind of stuff,

00:17:33   but none of HBO max original content is available there. So HBO work it out, right? Like, yeah,

00:17:41   it sounds like they're, they're actually selling. This is a sign that it's not coming anytime soon,

00:17:47   right? Is that they are selling their originals to places like sky in the UK. So like, uh,

00:17:54   the original content, the HBO max pure content is not available. The flight attendant, which is,

00:17:59   uh, an HBO max original. I'm looking at a story now. I just picked it as an idea. They,

00:18:04   they sold it to sky. Okay. Well that will premiere in 2021 on, on sky somewhere. So,

00:18:10   so it seems like they're basically at this point selling content into markets that they're not

00:18:16   going to go in yet. That's just seems like they do on it on like a pick and choose, right? Like

00:18:22   it's so stupid. I agree. I agree. Probably. Yeah. Yeah. I feel your pain. All right. This

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00:20:13   All right, so let's talk about For All Mankind because Apple has wrapped the promotional machine

00:20:19   up to 22 on this one. The second season for all mankind of For All Mankind debuts to the moon.

00:20:26   Diamond Hands, it debuts this week on Friday, I think. Now, they're going back to weekly release.

00:20:35   Do you know, is it going to be one at a time or are they going to dump a couple and then go?

00:20:39   One at a time. One at a time, baby.

00:20:42   They're killing me out. Well, I've been really excited for this.

00:20:44   I love the weekly release. I like weekly releases, but I want like two,

00:20:48   right? I want two and then weekly. That's what I want. I don't want the whole.

00:20:51   My understanding is that it's just episode one on Friday.

00:20:54   Okay, okay. Because that's what I really liked about when they debuted. And again,

00:21:01   what we were just talking about, WandaVision, I want a couple so I can get into it again, you know,

00:21:05   and then go weekly. And I could wait, like that's what we did with WandaVision.

00:21:10   We actually wait until there was four of them and then we watched them and then caught up.

00:21:13   Or three or four of them and caught up. And I could wait, but I can't wait because I've been

00:21:17   really excited for this show to return because of what they did going from season one to season two

00:21:23   where there's a time jump and I'm really intrigued to see what they do there.

00:21:30   But today Apple announced that they are going to be doing a weekly pod... Okay, a watch along

00:21:37   kind of podcast, an official podcast. Sort of.

00:21:39   Of For All Mankind. Now this is something that we kind of expected was coming. There's been lots of

00:21:45   reports about them moving into this. And this was one of the things that I think Bloomberg reported

00:21:50   that Apple would do because it seems like the obvious kind of first step for them, which is

00:21:56   take the content that they're already making on TV plus and make companion podcasts. And this has

00:22:02   been done to some good effect. I know that you've spoken very highly about both The Good Place and

00:22:07   Chernobyl and I think Watchmen's podcasts. And Watchmen too.

00:22:10   And it's going to be hosted by Chris Marshall who plays Danielle Poole on the show. So I like that.

00:22:16   It's hosted by somebody on the show. And the good thing about these types of podcasts is

00:22:21   where you can actually get the people on. So I was talking about The West Wing, that I've been

00:22:25   watching The West Wing. And people were recommending to me The West Wing Weekly. But I didn't want to

00:22:30   listen because we were binging The West Wing. So it wasn't really possible for me to watch.

00:22:35   But now I miss The West Wing so much. I'm now just listening to The West Wing Weekly.

00:22:39   And what's so great about that, which I didn't know initially, is it's hosted by one of the

00:22:42   people that's in the show. So they just get whoever they want on. And these shows are...

00:22:48   No disrespect to my many friends, including you, who make watch along shows. It is really great

00:22:55   when you can have the people involved in the thing, right? No disrespect taken because once you've got

00:23:00   the people involved and it's the official podcast, you also can't criticize it. So it works both ways.

00:23:05   Exactly. You do lose something. Yep. But you gain something. And I've enjoyed some of the official

00:23:10   podcasts. Again, I don't... I listen to official podcasts for interesting behind the scenes

00:23:18   discussion of how the art was made. And I listen to discussions, unofficial discussions about

00:23:25   the TV shows for analysis and criticism of the art. Different. It's just different.

00:23:31   And like wish-casting and all that kind of stuff, right? Like they are... You're right.

00:23:34   Sure. They're different. One is behind the scenes. The other is fandom of the thing.

00:23:39   Exactly. And one of them is tightly integrated and it's got all the stuff. And again, you don't get

00:23:46   that access otherwise, right? Like you're not going to get one of the actors from For All Mankind

00:23:51   to talk about every episode and what they didn't like about it. This is not going to happen.

00:23:55   Why didn't it work in this episode? Oh, my part was terrible.

00:23:58   Your co-star did a bad job that day. Did he not get sleep the night before? What's going on there?

00:24:04   But this is wild to me. So the first episode comes out with the first episode of the show.

00:24:12   Then the show's weekly, but the podcast is fortnightly. This feels like falling at the

00:24:16   first hurdle. Why would you do this? I don't know. Watchmen did this too. And I

00:24:22   can't decide whether it's just that it's cheaper or what, but it does seem unfortunate, right? Like

00:24:30   you want to kind of create this more tight connection between episode and podcast if

00:24:38   you're releasing weekly. And that didn't happen. It's kind of one of those things. No disrespect

00:24:43   to the people involved. If I do it right or don't do it. The Watchmen podcast was great,

00:24:47   but it was frustrating that they'd be like, "Well, now we're going to talk about this week's episode

00:24:51   and also last week's episode." Yeah. Like, "But why didn't you?" Yeah, it's strange, but I'm looking

00:24:58   forward to listening because I'm curious. Honestly, I'm just curious about what the Apple take. And

00:25:02   they're working with a company that produces, an outside company that produces podcasts to do this.

00:25:06   This is not being made by Apple's in-house, but it's being made for Apple for one of its shows.

00:25:13   So I'm interested in seeing how they take on the idea of the official podcast of a show that

00:25:20   they're rolling out. Is it available outside of Apple podcasts? It's unclear to me. I don't know.

00:25:27   Huh. We'll ask Marco. We'll see. I mean, I did a quick search on Overcast and nothing comes up,

00:25:32   but it did only appear today with the trailer. Yeah, right. Exactly. Huh. I wonder what they're

00:25:38   going to do there. I don't know. You'd think that they'd want to promote it regardless. Yeah,

00:25:41   because this is ostensibly marketing for... Yeah, my gut feeling is that it'll be available

00:25:48   elsewhere too, because they want everybody to see For All mankind. And what happens the next time,

00:25:54   right? Is there an official morning show podcast? What are they going to do for the rest of their

00:25:59   shows? Is this the new rollout plan or is this an experiment? I don't know. I think they should. I

00:26:03   think it's a good idea. Really. It's just like, it's an additional thing you can do. People that

00:26:07   really love the show can also continue to consume content along with the show. I'll be super into

00:26:14   this for a Ted Lasso. Oh man. Yeah. I would really like that, like a Ted Lasso podcast as well.

00:26:20   I'm intrigued. I'm very intrigued to check out both of these things. I'm going to say.

00:26:27   There was another thing though that they did for All Mankind, which was an AR game type experience

00:26:35   thing. So it's called For All Mankind Time Capsule. If you check this out all, I went through it all

00:26:40   today. I have not looked at it yet. Okay. It doesn't take very long. It's probably like a

00:26:44   half an hour type thing. But it's effectively a bunch of little vignettes that you tell us.

00:26:51   It's telling a story of some of the intervening time between season one and season two. And you

00:26:57   get to see, uh, like kind of part of the family life of the Stevens family. So Gordo and Tracy

00:27:05   Stevens, like it's, you see some of their family life a little bit, which is super interesting

00:27:10   because of the way their stories go towards the end of season one. Um, TJ has found, uh,

00:27:17   Yeah. There's a, there's a RSS URL and I just added it to my overcast and it worked. So there

00:27:22   you go for All Mankind is you can listen in whatever your podcast player of choice is.

00:27:27   So I want to just touch on this real quickly because this is super interesting to me. Yeah.

00:27:31   Um, so pause on the For All Mankind, uh, AR game. The RSS feed or the website is, is with art 19.

00:27:40   Art 19 is a hosting and production company. And I can't work out why Apple would

00:27:51   choose any specific company like this, which I think just shows that the production company

00:27:58   that is involved with this, I think maybe has, uh, a lot of the rollout plans.

00:28:04   Cause I just can't work out why Apple would choose any, maybe that at will media, which is the name

00:28:11   of the company that is producing the show for, for Apple. Um, at will media works with art 19

00:28:18   for distribution and they told Apple we're handling the whole thing and Apple is like,

00:28:23   great. You do it, go to town. We're not going to do this now. That's super interesting to me.

00:28:29   I'll have to talk to, I'll talk to Lex about it. I'll talk to our friend Lex. I didn't want to

00:28:32   mention it, but yeah. Okay. I wasn't going to, but you did. Yeah. Our friend Lex Friedman works on

00:28:37   19 and, uh, interesting. Anyway. So the, the For All Mankind game, it's, it's as they call it,

00:28:45   a story was seen between seasons one and two, which it really is. And it's beautiful. Like

00:28:52   it is a really nice, really wonderful experience that they've created. If you enjoy the show,

00:28:59   download this and try it out. Like I was quite surprised by how moving I found it honestly.

00:29:06   And it's got voice acting, uh, from sad spy. I can't remember his name, Michael Dorman,

00:29:13   who plays Gordo. Um, he has, he's lent his voice to the game. So there's some, some,

00:29:19   some like vocal work there, quite a bit of it actually in the game. And I don't know,

00:29:23   it does a good job of setting the timeframe of the show. There's a lot of music in it,

00:29:27   a lot of music you would like Jason, uh, specifically. I really liked it. What I'll

00:29:32   say though, is my iPhone got incredibly hot doing this. Like, cause you're in AR for the whole time.

00:29:37   So it's like half an hour of just AR and like the top left hand corner of my phone. I couldn't even

00:29:42   touch it. It got so hot. Uh, so that's where the process is. Get ready to wear that on your face.

00:29:48   Oh God. Catch your hand on fire. That's why there's a fan. Yeah. So there's gotta be a fan

00:29:53   in a, in a AR headset, right? Kind of my thinking, my point about both of these things, the podcast

00:29:58   and this AR game, they have gone all out here for, for All Mankind. Do you want to know how

00:30:05   all out they've gone? Like, would you like to know? I can exclusively reveal that there's a

00:30:11   special episode of Liftoff on Thursday with, um, for All Mankind content in it.

00:30:18   Cause we got to talk to Ron Moore, the co-creator and executive producer for Liftoff about, for All

00:30:25   Mankind season two. So people check that out on relay FM. I'll put a link in the show notes to

00:30:31   Liftoff. Uh, that was pretty awesome. We did that last week and, uh, that was like, I was impressed

00:30:37   with that. They're like, for All Mankind's coming out, you got a space podcast. Let's do it. Like,

00:30:41   yeah, it was great. I am very excited. Uh, I knew this was coming and I cannot wait to listen to it.

00:30:47   So, uh, I, I, when I found out I knew how excited you would be, right? Cause it's like,

00:30:53   look at my world's coming together. I can't even tell you how excited I was to talk to him. And I

00:31:00   had to, I had to keep it together because I've literally watched all the shows that he's worked

00:31:06   on. Like I said at the beginning, before we got started, I'm like, love your work from Star Trek to

00:31:12   to, to Battlestar Galactica to Outlander. Um, and now to, for All Mankind. So that was, that was,

00:31:19   uh, when we were done with that interview, I realized that I had, I had, I had been stressing

00:31:24   out about it for like a week. I would have been terrified. So that's really conversation slash

00:31:30   liftoff. Go subscribe to the show now and you'll get that when it drops later on this week. I'm

00:31:36   very excited to hear it. Uh, I'm going to keep my eye on the CMS and just pull that one down as soon

00:31:41   as, just for me, as soon as you see it go up there. Um, so with this, of all of this, they are

00:31:48   going all out and this is not, not all of their shows are getting this attention, right? So,

00:31:55   Servant season two, Dickinson season two, they're both out. There's ads for them. I know that,

00:32:00   but this is like a whole next level. So I think what we're seeing here is Apple creating basically

00:32:07   like a tiered version, like system of their programming, like what they consider to be

00:32:11   their flagship shows are getting this type of promotion or Sony, the production company,

00:32:17   is paying for it. I don't, I don't know, right? This is something we don't know about,

00:32:21   about like kind of the, the, the goings on inside, but this is very clearly, uh,

00:32:28   enhanced promotion for this show over some of their other programming, which may be tied in

00:32:34   with the originals too. Like there was a, uh, this show and the morning show, especially got a lot of

00:32:41   the initial press going into it. Um, do you think that we will see, I mean, this kind of heavy

00:32:47   promotion for say morning show and probably Ted Lasso as well? Like with all of this stuff, not

00:32:53   just the podcast, but the whole like dog and pony show. Yeah, I'm clear with it.

00:32:57   I'm unclear whether this is a test or whether this is the new kind of a tier promotion thing,

00:33:06   or whether they've got a, like a whole palette of promotional options. And for each show,

00:33:11   they do a rollout plan. This is the most I've seen for any of those Apple shows. So

00:33:15   it'll be interesting to see the next premiere. What happens, what shows get the podcast,

00:33:21   what shows get the special AR content? Is there a track where there's like things to choose from,

00:33:28   or do they brainstorm specific things? And we're only going to see AR for this because they thought

00:33:33   it was the best fit for the content. I don't know, but, um, it is interesting to see them

00:33:40   doing this at a level that they weren't before for this. And I, you know, I think that's good.

00:33:47   I'm very excited for the show. I can't wait. Yeah, I've seen episode one and two and you know,

00:33:54   it's good. It's a really good show. Look at me. I'm so fancy. Look at me.

00:33:57   I've been using this for a few weeks and I can say that it's a pretty good show.

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00:36:13   Relay FM. Okay, so you wrote a couple of articles last week about the AMP TV.

00:36:20   Boy did I.

00:36:21   Yeah, you did. You really got into it.

00:36:22   Oh yeah, I did. I wrote those articles.

00:36:25   And a bunch of tweets too. So you were building on a conversation that was on dithering between

00:36:34   John Gruber and Ben Thompson about the Apple TV and they were pondering what could be next

00:36:39   for the Apple TV, but you kind of took it from a different angle of like, should the Apple TV have

00:36:46   a next? Basically.

00:36:48   Yeah, well, and why, why does it exist? It was really, it was really like, why, why is it here?

00:36:54   The premise being that with it's, I would say it's two most important unique features gone,

00:37:02   not removed from the product, but not unique anymore, which is airplay support and the TV app

00:37:07   with those. So access to every iTunes movie you ever bought,

00:37:12   every TV show you ever bought, plus rentals, plus Apple TV plus roll all that in there.

00:37:20   Those are available on modern TVs and streamer boxes, including, you know, streamer boxes,

00:37:27   at least in the U S you can buy a streamer box with all that stuff on it that does 4k,

00:37:32   HDR for 35 bucks. So my point was we've got a thing that costs five times that and doesn't do

00:37:41   those features uniquely anymore. So what, what is in the, in the list of advantages, you know,

00:37:48   the list of assets for, uh, for the Apple TV and, and where do they go from here? Like,

00:37:57   what could they do to make it, um, you know, more popular as a product? What, what could they add?

00:38:06   What features could they add and what are the issues? So it's sort of like,

00:38:09   let's come up with what it does, what it still does that is unique, and then also kind of ponder

00:38:15   what it could do to be, um, more successful than it is. Oh, I'll remind everybody that the, uh,

00:38:22   Apple TV got an F in the, in the report card on six colors as well. So yeah, for these reasons,

00:38:29   the reasons, your article, the things we're going to talk about, but the thing is like,

00:38:32   Apple's doing the right thing in making AirPlay and the TV app available in many places. This is

00:38:42   the right thing for the strategy. I think it makes sense, right? Like at this point, if you're buying

00:38:47   a new TV, it's actually pretty hard to not have some combination of these features. You're probably

00:38:53   going to get the Apple TV app no matter what you get. And then some TV sets also have AirPlay. Like

00:38:59   most major manufacturers have some kind of set, a set of these features now. But even if you don't,

00:39:04   I mean, you can get a fire TV stick for, for, you know, the few tens of dollars that those things

00:39:09   cost and you'll get the Apple TV app. Right. So very easy to get now. I want to say something

00:39:14   upfront here because I got a lot of feedback on Twitter about this. I'm not trying to take your

00:39:18   Apple TV away from you. I'm not saying you're a dummy for buying an Apple TV, especially not two

00:39:23   years ago. I'm not saying that you shouldn't use the Apple TV. I use the Apple TV every day,

00:39:28   but I am saying if you want this product to be successful, cause you like it,

00:39:32   other people should probably also, you know, buy it so that more people can buy it and more people

00:39:38   can use it and developers can focus more on it and all of those things, uh, for it to be more

00:39:42   successful, you want to have it have a viable audience and market. And right now it seems like

00:39:50   that's a tough one. So as of right now, the things that set the Apple TV box apart, uh,

00:40:00   point one Apple makes it. So if they're going to add features to the ecosystem, in theory,

00:40:06   if they could affect the TV, then you'll get them rolled in. Right. And you can see this with some

00:40:12   HomeKit stuff, for example, you know, like when they add HomeKit secure video, well, they added

00:40:17   the ability for you to see those cameras on your Apple TV. And if you were using the TV app, uh,

00:40:23   and on your Samsung TV or your OG TV, you're not going to get that. Right. So there's some benefit

00:40:29   there to being in the ecosystem. Um, it can play games from Apple arcade. If that's your jam,

00:40:35   it has support for HomePods. I don't want to get started. I was happy to see that you put in your

00:40:42   article that I mentioned you in there. Cause I heard from people who are like, Oh, I just play

00:40:46   my HomePods for my Apple TV. And it's such, it's so great. And I thought, well, that's nice. But

00:40:51   I also know that Myke tries to do that and he's miserable. Like I saw, uh, John Gruber linked to

00:40:56   it and he said that he does this and it works great for him. I don't know what other people

00:41:01   are doing that I'm not doing, but I mean, it really isn't great for me, but there you go.

00:41:06   Uh, it's a HomeKit hub, which is good, but becoming less good. So many devices can be

00:41:11   HomeKit hubs now. Um, you know, right. It's becoming less of a, uh, what I tried to say

00:41:18   is if it's a HomeKit hub, which is great. If you don't have a HomePod, if you don't have an iPad in

00:41:22   your house, which, you know, a lot of people are going to have an iPad in their house and don't

00:41:26   actually the fact that it is a HomeKit hub is not necessarily, you know, it's a unique feature sort

00:41:33   of, but there are other Apple products that do it. So even though it's unique for streamer boxes,

00:41:37   it's not necessarily, uh, unique for Apple products. And you listed the remote here.

00:41:43   Yeah. Well, it's different, right? And I, there are things about the remote that I like. I feel

00:41:50   like Apple could do a redesign of that remote that kept some of the features like the, the trackpad

00:41:55   and make it better. Um, I just didn't want to cast the remote down and say like, and the remote is a

00:42:02   total disaster because I have a love hate relationship with a remote, but I switched to using the

00:42:10   Logitech harmony remote for Apple TV. You know, I have a universal remote, the Logitech harmony,

00:42:15   and it will control the Apple TV, but all it does is buttons. And I would occasionally get in

00:42:20   scenarios where I would be in a show and I'd want to jump back 20 minutes or forward 50 minutes, or,

00:42:26   you know, and find that, that moment. And then, and by swiping, you know, you click to go into,

00:42:31   into scrub mode and then you can sort of swipe over to find where you want to be. And then you

00:42:36   click again and you're there and you can't do that with buttons, at least not the way that it's built

00:42:41   right now. And I really like that. And I use it all the time. And I heard from a lot of people who

00:42:45   use Siri commands all the time. Uh, I don't, but I know a lot of people do. So there's things about

00:42:50   that remote that are not, it's not universally terrible, even though it's got lots of issues,

00:42:54   it's slippery. You need to orient it properly and you can't do that on feel. Um, you can bump

00:43:00   against it. It's all, it's all true. Yeah. You bump against it. Somebody wrote in an acquaintance of

00:43:07   mine, wrote in on Twitter and said something like you bump it and, and touch it wrong. And suddenly

00:43:14   you're in a different dimension. And I laughed at that because I absolutely had that. In fact,

00:43:19   I had that happen just the other night where I, uh, I bumped it with my elbow and it started to

00:43:25   fall off and I grabbed it. And, and meanwhile I was sitting at the menu in, uh, on the Apple TV,

00:43:31   I launched an app and it started to play something and I'm like, no. And then, and then I realized

00:43:37   that it was, I had caught it upside down in my hand. So I was pressing the wrong buttons

00:43:42   and I was just like, Oh, Apple TV remote. Right? Like it was just one of those moments of like,

00:43:47   this is why people hate you. Um, but it has its positives too. I don't, I don't, it's not like

00:43:54   the hockey puck mouse or something from the original iMac. It's not that bad, but it it's got,

00:43:58   it's got issues, but it's also got upside. So they could, they could reinvent it in some way.

00:44:04   Um, but I do think it is a unique feature and there are things about it that some people like.

00:44:08   So honestly, like I look at this list and I don't, you know,

00:44:15   well, yeah, yeah, this is, this is the thing. And, and I got a lot of feedback from people

00:44:21   are like, Oh, here's some other things that it does that I like. So we got the, um,

00:44:27   I use it to do screensavers in my photos and iCloud photos. And I, uh, I like the sophistication of

00:44:37   the apps because these are sort of like iOS apps. And so they've got all sorts of, uh, things that

00:44:42   they can do. Um, a lot of people brought up fitness plus integration, which I agree is a good example

00:44:48   of Apple trying to add something to the Apple TV recently to make it, uh, to give it a unique

00:44:56   benefit, which is it's super integrated with fitness plus now you're going to be able to

00:45:01   airplay the fitness app from your iPhone or iPad to any device that supports airplay in the next

00:45:09   full release of iOS, but it won't show your, uh, your live data, although it'll show it on your

00:45:15   watch. Um, and so it's one of those things where I agree, it's really nice. Also, I'm not entirely

00:45:21   convinced that Apple will not make an effort to make that available everywhere as well,

00:45:26   because they want fitness plus to have value more than they want to sell fitness plus users in Apple

00:45:32   TV, but we'll see us. Um, people mentioned the TV app integration, which we talked about here.

00:45:37   Uh, if you don't use Netflix, uh, all the other stuff you're watching, you can sit in the TV app

00:45:42   and it sort of knows, and it'll launch you out to those apps and it can create a sort of single

00:45:46   front end and watch list for everything you do. It's true. I don't use it that much because I do

00:45:50   use Netflix, but for everything that actually does share data, it is a pretty nice interface.

00:45:55   And I can see that that has some real value. Um, and if Netflix was part of the party,

00:46:00   it would be, uh, even better. I wish they could make that work somehow. Right. And the big one

00:46:06   that I heard from a lot of people is I had, I had an item that was it's from Apple, right. And I

00:46:13   tried to roll a bunch of stuff in there. Like I just buy Apple stuff and I don't worry about it.

00:46:18   Um, you know, Apple logo is on it. It's the, it's the ecosystem owner, platform owner. It's nicer,

00:46:27   like all the things that are it's from Apple as opposed to it's from some other company.

00:46:32   What a lot of people hit me back about was also it's from Apple means I trust Apple in terms of

00:46:40   my data. And I don't trust random company that makes this software, whether it's Amazon or Roku

00:46:48   or Samsung or whoever. And so their argument is I buy the Apple TV because, um, I trust it in terms

00:46:57   of my privacy in a way that, um, I don't trust those other companies now. Yeah, that's a personal

00:47:03   choice. I think, and this is a thing that we've talked about on the show a bit. I think that it

00:47:09   can be overstated. Um, I think I see in those arguments, a lot of people who read that one story

00:47:17   about Visio a couple of years ago and have decided that all TV boxes are loss leaders that are there

00:47:25   to steal all of your viewing information and sell it for an enormous profit, which I don't think was

00:47:31   ever really true, but is, uh, you know, Visio, the beauty of that Visio story is that basically

00:47:38   everybody in the TV box market got, uh, scrutinized and they all have opt-outs. I have yet to see a

00:47:45   story anywhere of somebody who's analyzed the network data on one of these boxes that has

00:47:51   opted out from ad tracking or, uh, you know, uh, video tracking that they're leaking information

00:47:57   to people, which is not surprising because it would be an enormous scandal if it turned out

00:48:03   that they offered an opt-out and that it didn't opt you out. Is it not opted? Are you opted in

00:48:09   by default? Yeah, you are. Um, I, again, I don't love the idea that some TV box manufacturer has

00:48:18   data about what shows I watch at the same time. It's not exactly the crown jewels.

00:48:23   Like that's like a Nielsen box. Basically your cable box may also be doing this, by the way,

00:48:27   Netflix is tracking what you're watching when you're in Netflix. Every service you use is

00:48:32   tracking you even on the Apple TV, right? They're tracking you within their silo, not across,

00:48:37   uh, devices, but they are absolutely doing that. Uh, Apple even has a, I believe a privacy opt-out

00:48:42   in TV OS, so it too, it has got some amount of data, but the LA so I think this is overblown,

00:48:49   but the truth is, I think it's fair to say for a certain audience, the fact that the Apple TV is

00:48:56   from Apple provides a level of comfort that a random company that they've never heard of,

00:49:02   or only have heard of in passing or don't trust for other reasons can provide. And I think that's,

00:49:07   I think that's fair. I would probably argue that that doesn't count for most people. It doesn't

00:49:13   counterbalance the fact that you can get this one for $35 and this one's a one 179, but for some

00:49:20   people it does. So even though I can be a little skeptical that I think maybe this is overstated

00:49:26   on both sides, uh, it is perceived as an advantage for Apple. And, you know, I don't think anybody

00:49:35   expects Apple to make a product for $35 just because Roku does right now. That's not what

00:49:39   Apple does, but the difference between the Apple TV and every other model, all of which have been

00:49:46   updated in the last six months and Apple TV hasn't been updated for two years. It's worth,

00:49:51   we're thinking about what else could Apple do to make this product more appealing because even the

00:49:56   most exciting, excited, beloved, devoted fan of the Apple TV. And I heard from all of them because

00:50:04   they're convinced that I'm saying that they should, somebody, a mean man should come to their house and

00:50:08   take their Apple TV away. I guess, even though I said I use it every day. Um, even they would

00:50:14   probably admit that they love this product so much, perhaps Apple should be working very hard

00:50:22   to improve it, to find ways to make it have unique value and find ways to make it more appealing. So

00:50:30   more people buy it because again, it's a stronger product if it's actively updated and flying off

00:50:38   the shelves and people want to be on the platform. It's more viable as a product that way. It's a

00:50:43   better product that way. And it's been kind of drifting for two years. So what can they do then?

00:50:49   Brain box. What can they do? I don't know. Give it up, call it a day, shut her down. I mean,

00:50:56   that's the thing they could do. They could, they could. And I think I've gotten enough feedback

00:51:04   from, if they wanted to shut down the Apple TV, they would need to make a greater effort to

00:51:10   integrate some of their other ecosystem stuff into the TV app, which they haven't done, which leads

00:51:15   me to believe that it won't happen. Although it's possible it could happen, right? Like, Oh, well,

00:51:19   I want access to my iCloud photo library. Well, they could update the TV app to give you access

00:51:24   to that. Right. And they'd be like, no, just buy Roku. It's fine. I don't think they will. I think

00:51:28   that they're going to keep this around in some form just as a pricey platform object. Right.

00:51:36   But so Ben and John on Dithering talked about games. And I think it's interesting. There are,

00:51:48   I'm not sure it'll work because Apple and games generally has not worked in history. And when it

00:51:52   works, it's accidental. But there are two ways of looking at it. And I want, I want your thoughts

00:51:59   about this as somebody who cares about games. One way to look at it is, well, just make a game

00:52:04   console like a super souped up Apple TV with controllers and access to games on the app store

00:52:10   and court game developers to be on the app store and get their games on the app store. And, and,

00:52:19   and go like, we're going to, we're really a better comparison to Xbox and PlayStation,

00:52:24   which seems like a stretch to me. And the alternative is to say, we're a different kind

00:52:31   of game console, just like Nintendo does different kinds of game consoles, but we are going to make a

00:52:37   push in terms of gaming capability and controllers. And they've already started doing some of that,

00:52:43   but it's never going to be, you know, they're going to use continue using their iOS foundation.

00:52:48   And not, not make it feel truly like something that could compete with something like PlayStation

00:52:54   or Xbox, but more than just a video streamer, which at least in terms of their hardware is the

00:53:01   right thing to do because their hardware is way too powerful for just streaming video. So what

00:53:06   else do you do with it? What, you know, is any gaming strategy for Apple TV viable? Do you think?

00:53:11   No. Um, moving on. Well, so like, you know, I will say it so, so abruptly because I genuinely

00:53:19   believe there isn't one. Uh, I would love to be proven wrong, but I don't understand where they

00:53:25   could fit. So Apple is not going to make a PlayStation or Xbox competitor because it's more

00:53:33   than just adding a controller right now. Microsoft and Sony do not want to make consoles that are as

00:53:39   big as the consoles they make. Right. But if you want to make AAA top quality games,

00:53:45   that's the kind of hardware that you're looking at. Right. And I can't imagine Apple building a

00:53:52   larger Apple TV. I'm not saying it has to be as big as like the Xbox series S for example.

00:53:58   I was going to say having a PS5, the PS5 is the size of my house.

00:54:02   The PS5 is absurdly large and yes, but it's doing a lot and Apple could maybe go along the road of

00:54:10   the Xbox series S, which is like, it's not giving you all of the power, but you could at least play

00:54:15   all the games, et cetera. But the problem with the AAA strategy, the high end high quality games,

00:54:21   it's not hardware. That's the problem here. It's Apple as a company and the app store,

00:54:26   right? Just look at Apple versus Epic, right? That's the issue, right? Like that is the closest

00:54:33   to a top tier game that would be on iOS and just the market forces just won't allow for it.

00:54:40   And there are many other issues here, right? So just looking, I'm going to come to Nintendo in

00:54:45   a minute. Let me count you there. If only to say that my understanding is that the console app

00:54:50   stores take a percentage that's comparable to what Apple takes. They take a percentage. But I really

00:54:57   loved a lot of the, like John Surcuse put this in a great way on some episodes of ATP, but the thing

00:55:03   is there is a percentage that is taken by the console makers, but there's a bunch of other

00:55:07   things going on. It's probably negotiate. It's definitely negotiable. Right. And you need to be

00:55:12   on those consoles, right? You don't, they don't need to be on an Apple TV. Apple TV would be a

00:55:16   hungry console that would need to really cut a deal to get some things that are considered AAA

00:55:20   running on their platform. But there are deals, right? So the big games, you're getting extra

00:55:25   money for making the exclusive appearance at times. The marketing, the legit marketing, right,

00:55:30   is that they spend on that together. Um, like they are taking a cut, but you're getting a lot for it.

00:55:38   Not just if you are a big developer, not just the right to be on the platform, right? There's a lot

00:55:44   of to and throw, which is something that Apple doesn't do. And I can't imagine they would ever

00:55:49   do because they have no history of doing this and they've had no history of doing this at times when

00:55:55   they should have done it. Right. Like we look at Apple news plus they should be more give and take

00:56:01   in that if they really wanted that to succeed, but they're just not interested in give and take,

00:56:05   right. They're just interested in take, right? Like you should be lucky to be here, right? It's

00:56:11   kind of a lot of the, the feeling that people get from these deals, especially with content.

00:56:18   So I just can't imagine them doing this, right? Like, do you think that the first time Apple

00:56:23   found out that Epic had an issue was when they did that thing that they did? No. Right? Like Epic

00:56:29   was very clearly voicing what they wanted from Apple and Apple didn't want to give it. I'm not

00:56:35   saying what's right or wrong. I'm just saying like, this is the, this is kind of how Apple

00:56:39   treat these types of relationships. It seems right. So I can't imagine that even though these

00:56:44   other, like, even though Sony and Microsoft take that cut, there's more of an arrangement between

00:56:49   these businesses and it's less clear. Like just like we take this, then you get to be on the platform.

00:56:54   That's that. So just staying on Sony and Microsoft for a minute, marketing is so strong, right? Like

00:57:01   amongst the people that play these games, they want one of these two consoles. Apple would have

00:57:06   to do so much to try and convince people that they're a player in that field. But this is not

00:57:11   the field they're going for anyway. They're going for games, right? And you mentioned Nintendo,

00:57:15   people mentioned Nintendo. Oh, they're just doing a Nintendo thing. Oh my God. I love you, Jason.

00:57:20   You're great. This is so incredible. But Myke, Apple has decades where they have rolled out

00:57:27   games featuring beloved characters like the dog cow. So this is the issue. People

00:57:35   spinning rainbow cursor. Oh my God. Can you imagine a game that is the adventures of the dog cow and

00:57:42   the spinning rainbow cursor in finder land? The beloved chess. Uh, so like people look at Nintendo

00:57:50   and they're like, oh, Nintendo managed to do this without the big beefy hardware. Nintendo have

00:57:56   a level of creativity in their games and their hardware that everybody else wishes they could.

00:58:01   Like for example, right? Everyone's like, oh my God, you cannot buy a PlayStation right now. They

00:58:06   must be doing so well. Nintendo in the same quarter sold, I think it was nearly twice the amount

00:58:11   of switches. Right. And I mean, yes, they have supply, but the switch is like three or four years

00:58:17   old at this point. Like it's a different beast. Well, I mentioned Nintendo only to say it's

00:58:23   possible. I'm just, I'm just trying to make this argument. I'm trying to parse this out.

00:58:27   It's possible that you could make a game focused device that is not

00:58:35   triple a console like Sony and Microsoft. Yes. That would have some appeal. I think the problem,

00:58:42   and I mentioned the switch just because Nintendo has always gone its own way. The difference is

00:58:46   Nintendo has a track record and audience and intellectual property that put it over the edge.

00:58:51   Whereas what Apple would bring is, you know, that game, that puzzle game you like on your iPad,

00:58:57   you know, that thing where you touch the color gems on your iPhone. Well, now it can be on your TV,

00:59:02   which is not a great, a great match. And I don't, you know, short of Apple, you know, buying

00:59:09   huge amounts of intellectual property and even then, right? Like it's not,

00:59:14   I think it's more likely for Apple to be successful trying to do something that is not a

00:59:19   triple a console than Apple trying to be a triple a console, if that makes any sense. I'm not sure

00:59:24   either of them are great, but I could see, I could see it a little bit better given that every iOS

00:59:31   device works with controllers. Now I could see them making a push for more content that uses

00:59:42   and is best on controllers. I'm not sure it would work, but I could see it. I just, I can't see it

00:59:48   being a PlayStation, right? That I can't see. In fact, you could argue with the AR/VR stuff that

00:59:56   if they want to go down this path, they really do need to embrace gaming because gaming is an

01:00:02   application for all of this stuff and Apple's not very good at it. So, yes, I agree with that.

01:00:08   I wanted to address like the game, because I see people say casual gaming, right? Like,

01:00:14   why doesn't Apple make the Apple TV great for casual gamers? But what's casual about turning

01:00:19   on your TV? Exactly. Right? That's the challenge. If what you're saying is we're going to take the

01:00:24   casual games for casual gamers and put them on the Apple TV, you have completely divorced the idea of

01:00:32   casual gaming because it is not casual to sit down in front. Casual gaming works because these are

01:00:39   games that you play when you are waiting for something or you're doing something else or

01:00:43   you're trying to pass time. These are the games you play on your iPhone, right? They work on your

01:00:48   iPhone because they are built around this idea of killing time. Sitting down at games, at a television

01:00:56   to play a game, it is not casual gaming anymore. You've made it gaming. You've removed the casual

01:01:02   from it. Right. And again, if you were Nintendo and had Mario, sorry, John Mario, and all of that

01:01:13   stuff, right? You had Mario and you had Kirby and you had all those characters and all those titles

01:01:20   that you've done for years and years. Well, then you could maybe release an Apple TV-like product

01:01:27   and a better controller, by the way, and you might have something,

01:01:35   but Apple doesn't have any of that. You do need something to be there, I feel like. Something that

01:01:46   is going to draw people there other than that it's Apple. And that's the challenge here, right? We've

01:01:52   seen the game story for the last few years on the Apple TV. And the fact is, I want to say this too,

01:01:57   can the Apple TV be a decent game platform? Yes, it can. And a new one could be even better at it.

01:02:04   And they all connect to controllers. And if you've played a game that works well with a controller,

01:02:10   like Sayonara Wild Hearts on the Apple TV, it's really good. I also use it for party games for the

01:02:17   Jackbox Party Pack. All of that is true. The challenge is how do you and Apple Arcade games

01:02:22   play on the Apple TV? And yet it's not there on the software side and I'm not sure how it gets

01:02:28   there. No, it's like, so the thing about the Apple TV, the Apple TV can be a thing that also has games,

01:02:35   which is great, rather than a thing you buy because it has games. And I can't imagine it ever

01:02:42   being more than that for all of the reasons. So Terrence in the chat room says, I'd argue Apple

01:02:48   TV doesn't need a distinct strategy. It just needs to support Apple Arcade and they need to put a lot

01:02:52   more resources behind it. I do think that is a distinct, well, okay. I agree with Terrence,

01:02:58   indistinct strategy seems to be Apple's current strategy for Apple TV. And maybe it's the right

01:03:01   one, which is to go back to a joke that I made about the original Apple Watch presentation.

01:03:07   What doesn't it do? Right? Like what is the Apple TV for? It's for all those things I listed earlier

01:03:12   and it's for games and Apple Arcade. And yes, they could pour a lot more money into Apple Arcade

01:03:18   and say the Apple TV box is an arcade box and we're building, we're putting a lot of money into

01:03:24   making really good controller based games that you're going to want to plop down in front of your

01:03:27   TV with an Apple TV and play. And they're family friendly and your kids are going to love them and

01:03:32   you're going to love them as a grownup. And it's not quite the same as buying a console and it'll

01:03:36   also be your streamer box, et cetera, et cetera, in a way that like, other than harder core gamers,

01:03:42   people are not like, right. The last generation of consoles, game consoles, they're like,

01:03:46   it's also your TV box. And everybody was like, no, it's not stop, just stop. And you can watch

01:03:52   streaming video on those boxes, but unless you're a gamer, you're not like,

01:03:56   all right, honey, let's turn on the PlayStation to watch Netflix. Like I don't think.

01:04:00   - That exact strategy of it's a TV box killed the Xbox.

01:04:04   - Yeah, exactly. Oh, I had an Xbox one and yeah, it's ridiculous. HDMI in,

01:04:09   HDMI out. It's like, forget about it. So I think Terrence's point is good in the sense that

01:04:15   indistinct, it does these kinds of games on Apple arcade and we can put money into Apple arcade to

01:04:19   try and make the TV titles for Apple arcade better. And then we could also do a bunch of

01:04:24   other stuff, including stuff we haven't talked about yet, other ways that they could go and,

01:04:29   and just sort of be like what, you know, Apple TV, it's just better and does a bunch of stuff.

01:04:35   And if any of these things hit you, you'll buy it. And, and that might be something I, I still

01:04:42   think it needs to cost less, or at least there needs to be a version of it that costs a lot less,

01:04:48   not because Apple needs to be the low price leader. It never does, but because the prices

01:04:52   of the other computing boxes are so low that it needs to come down. Now the 4k Dolby vision,

01:04:58   Dolby Atmos version of Roku costs 99, but the 4k HDR version costs 35. So is there, I don't know,

01:05:08   I don't want to set the Apple price for this, but one 79 is not it. So give it to me for one

01:05:13   Oh nine or one 19 or, or, or make a version that's $99. You know, it would be very much like Tim

01:05:20   Cook's Apple for the current Apple TV 4k to get cut to 99. And then for them to make a new fancy

01:05:25   one that's one 79. And that might be okay. Um, but the, are we done with games? Cause there's the

01:05:32   other things that I said, all I need to say about games. That won't work basically. Um,

01:05:37   home home kit and, and smart home is another area that they could beef up if they wanted to

01:05:42   their, their smart home strategy is broken. They brought in somebody new a couple of years ago. We

01:05:47   haven't really seen a lot there, although a home pod mini has the thread radio in it. And like,

01:05:52   there's, there's signs they're working on a chop, the connected home, uh, uh, thing with everybody.

01:05:59   The idea here is it's the day taunt in smart home so that you should going forward at some point

01:06:04   here, just be able to buy smart home stuff. And it works with everything. It works with Google.

01:06:07   And Apple and Alexa and all those things. It just, it works and it's fine. And it may be that they're

01:06:13   kind of on hold until that all gets resolved. But I do think smart home stuff could be a way for the

01:06:21   Apple TV to differentiate. Um, if Apple made a wifi router, they could use it as a, as a, a mesh

01:06:27   network hub. That would be nice. Um, the, and you know, you talked to Federico about this sometimes

01:06:34   on connected home. The home app has automations that are essentially shortcuts, but it's a very,

01:06:39   and the shortcuts run on the home kit hub. So they don't run on, on a, like a computer or an iPad or

01:06:44   an iPhone. They run on the home kit server, which can be an iPad, but you see my point and they're

01:06:49   very limited. There's a set of things that you can automate there. Well, Apple could beef that up.

01:06:54   Apple could say on this Apple TV it's, it's basically a whole computer in there and there's

01:06:59   lots of other stuff it can do now. And look, you won't, you won't believe what you can automate in

01:07:03   your home. Um, they presumably would put like a thread radio in there. Cause one of the things

01:07:08   that would be really nice is I could stop buying little plastic boxes that I have to plug into

01:07:12   ethernet and the wall in order to turn on lights in my house. Um, but like all these different

01:07:18   smart home, uh, old standards all connect via different things. It could be something more like

01:07:24   something more like home bridge where it it's able to suck in a bunch of different things. Like

01:07:29   they could do work to say, this is a great home product at a level that they haven't yet. And

01:07:36   that might be again, is that the only reason you'd buy one? No, but it would be another one on the

01:07:41   pile. And if we're going with the indirect or unfocused strategy here, then that would be

01:07:46   something you could do. And then the other thing I'll just throw out there is my hobby horse. I've

01:07:50   been beat. I've been beating this drum for years now, but take your home pod tech, take your Apple

01:07:57   TV tech and take your smart home tech and make a soundbar so that people can plop an Apple branded.

01:08:04   Great sounding thing in front of their TV or above their TV or wherever you put your soundbar

01:08:10   and attach it to the TV. And it does video, it does Apple music. It sounds great. It does home

01:08:16   theater surround sound when you're doing that. And it's also your home pod hub. And it's like,

01:08:21   I don't know again. Yeah, they're competing with Sonos and do they really want to make it, but

01:08:24   like they already make literally all the parts of it with the home pod and the Apple TV. And I would

01:08:30   wager Myke, that you would not have the problems you're having with your home pods and your Apple

01:08:34   TV. If they were literally one box where they were all just connected. So I don't know again,

01:08:43   is that the solution? Probably not, but I feel like with Apple TV, if it's going to exist,

01:08:49   it needs to be more affordable and we need to Apple needs to, cause we can't do it really.

01:08:53   Apple needs to add some more new things on the pile because it took away some of its specialness

01:08:59   in the drive to spread Apple's entertainment platforms across connected devices. And honestly,

01:09:07   the airplay thing doesn't get enough. Airplay is such a great feature of owning an Apple product

01:09:12   and to have it be increasingly common on other devices is a big win for Mac users and iPad users

01:09:20   and iPhone users, but it comes at the cost of the unique value of the Apple TV. Somebody

01:09:25   during the Twitter back and forth last week said they're a teacher at a school and they bought

01:09:30   Apple TVs for every projector so that they can project from their screen. And that's great,

01:09:35   but today I would bet you that their IT manager would buy $35 Roku's instead because they do the

01:09:41   same thing and they wouldn't buy the $179 Apple TVs or whatever the education price is. So again,

01:09:48   we need to make a pile of features and low price. And you know, that's how Apple keeps the Apple TV

01:09:54   valuable and viable and make people want to buy it is they need to like with fitness plus,

01:10:00   they need to start integrating more things into it to give people a reason to buy it.

01:10:04   Because two of the biggest reasons have walked out the door in the last year.

01:10:08   It's kind of funny really. Cause like thinking about the iPad line, like the iPad air got a

01:10:13   bunch of features that the iPad pro had. And we're just naturally assuming because of the way that

01:10:17   Apple's done things in the past that the next iPad pro is going to get a bunch of things that the

01:10:21   iPad air doesn't have to like make it, make a reason for you to want to keep continuing buying

01:10:26   the more expensive product. And there's a kind of a similarity here, right? Where Apple took a bunch

01:10:32   of things that were exclusive to the Apple TV and made them more widely available. So now to get

01:10:37   people to want to buy the next Apple TV, if there ever is one, they need to do this exact thing,

01:10:42   right? Like there has to be some kind of USP to this product. You need differentiation between

01:10:48   you, even though the $35 Roku is not available in every country, but it is in the US Apple cares the

01:10:54   most about the US. I know they're looking at that. You need to have differentiation, even if it's not

01:10:59   your product, you need to have enough differentiation between you and the $35 product to make the

01:11:04   difference in price worth it. And the Apple logo is part of it. And Apple's privacy promise is part

01:11:09   of it. Like all of those ad, but you need to make the case to enough people to make that product

01:11:16   successful. And as the product has sat there unchanged, it keeps getting less differentiated.

01:11:22   Right. And so, so you're right. We expect it from the iPad pro. I think we need to expect it from

01:11:27   the Apple TV that they're going to find some ways to differentiate it because otherwise I don't

01:11:32   really know why it's around. Um, and, and putting a new processor in it. Cause imagine if it doesn't

01:11:37   do anything new and then they put a new processor in it from the latest generation sort of like,

01:11:42   okay, uh, what does that get me? Right? Like what is it's it's like the storage thing. It's like,

01:11:50   well, we've upped the processor. Well, great. I can buy a larger storage Apple TV too,

01:11:53   but that's pointless. I don't know. This episode is brought to you by express VPN.

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01:14:34   A thanks to express VPN for their support this show at relay FM. It's time for some

01:14:39   hashtag ask upgrade questions. Stitch wants to know, do you use bookmarks in Safari? If so, what for?

01:14:47   Uh, I use bookmarks to store. I just recently deleted a lot of bookmarks cause I had them there

01:14:53   for decades. Um, I use them for things that I think I need to have available cause I'm probably

01:15:00   going to need to come back there eventually. There aren't that many, but it just happens

01:15:03   occasionally. Also recipes. If I make something off of a random recipe website, I will add that

01:15:10   as a bookmark so I can get back there and make it again. Um, and otherwise I basically just use the

01:15:18   uh, favorites bar. So I, that's really how I use bookmarks is I use the favorites bar and I have

01:15:25   all of my content management stuff, uh, six colors, the incomparable relay IDG is all in there. Um,

01:15:34   I have a quick jumps to my sites and my weather page and uh, some COVID-19 data is in there and

01:15:43   home bridge is in there. So that's basically how I use bookmarks other than like to store recipes or

01:15:51   other things. Like there was a get hub, something that I was like a project that I wanted to keep my

01:15:55   eye on and I added that, but it's very rare that I use bookmarks anymore for anything other than

01:15:59   sort of like save it for later or it's the stuff that's in my uh, in my toolbar. I don't use

01:16:07   bookmarks. I have some bookmarks in Safari and I don't know how they got there. They're very old.

01:16:14   What I do use though is bookmarklets. So the CMS that we have for relay that we build,

01:16:22   um, it has the ability to, uh, if I go to a webpage, I can hit a bookmarklet and it will

01:16:28   save it to the CMS. Um, yeah, I have, I have all those in there and those are great. I've got one

01:16:32   that, um, will kick out video into a picture and picture on the Mac. Well actually Mac or iPad.

01:16:38   Um, that's really nice. Um, yeah, those are, those are, I should have mentioned that the

01:16:44   bookmarklets are very helpful too for that reason. So that's, that's what I use them for.

01:16:49   And the other thing that I use them for, um, although I don't use this as much as I used to

01:16:55   is I have all of my Google docs that I use for podcasts, uh, planning Google sheets or the

01:17:03   upgrade doc or the liftoff doc. And I used to use launch bar, which would index, uh, Safari

01:17:11   bookmarks. So I could launch the upgrade notes from launch bar, but I changed at some point

01:17:18   because those are all Google docs. I have, um, you know, Google drive, uh, and it's just web links to

01:17:26   those things too. But now I have, I think I have, I have launch bar scanning Google drive for the

01:17:31   names of all my Google docs and I get it that way, but for a while I was using it and I may switch

01:17:36   back. But that idea is that I'm not just launching apps using launch bar. I'm also launching web

01:17:41   pages like Google docs. So I use it for that. And I do, I think I do have my bookmarks indexed by

01:17:49   uh, by launch bar as well. So if something gets added in there, like a recipe or a doc that I'm

01:17:55   working on, I can get it through launch bar as well. And that's convenient rather than going to

01:17:58   the menu or something. I very rarely do that or auto or auto-complete right. If you in the URL

01:18:03   bar, you start typing the thing that you want and because it's in bookmarks, it just shows up there.

01:18:08   But I very rarely I'm like, now I'm at the point in my day where I will go to my bookmarks. I don't

01:18:13   do that. Like if I want to open the upgrade show notes, I just open a new tab and type in UPG and

01:18:18   it's like, Hey, and I just press enter and then that's it. Right. Like, so I do, I do space command

01:18:23   space UPG for a launch bar and hit return. It opens it up that way too. We keep getting lots of,

01:18:30   um, VR and AR ask upgrade questions. Keep sending them in. This one came from Seth. Uh, why is VR

01:18:37   and AR considered only for mobile during the discussions that you're having in an M1 world

01:18:41   where PC tablet phones are the same, like PC tablet and phone are the same. $3,000 endless

01:18:47   XDR display for my M1 MacBook sounds like an amazing idea. Why limit ideas and theories to

01:18:53   only what the phone can do? I think that's a great question. I do think that if VR and AR

01:19:00   ultimately becomes ever present and seamless, the idea that you won't need a big screen because you

01:19:10   can have a virtual screen anywhere you go will definitely become a thing that people will do

01:19:16   that you don't, you know, need a physical screen anymore because you can just make a virtual screen

01:19:21   that's as big as you want it to be and move it around with you and whatever. I think that's true.

01:19:25   However, they're all the physical issues, right? Which is, is it going to, is it going to be good

01:19:30   enough? If it's good enough, is it going to be heavy or hot or uncomfortable in the beginning?

01:19:35   It will be in the long run. Maybe not. Maybe it'll be more like just wearing a pair of glasses and

01:19:40   you put on your glasses and you're, you've got a computer screen. But, but I worry about the

01:19:45   ergonomics of it, that if you're working all day with a thing clamped onto your face, it's not

01:19:50   going to be good. So what is the ergonomic and when, and when does the ergonomic issue

01:19:55   go away because the technology has advanced? And I think that's going to be a while, but I do think,

01:20:00   I do think that the end goal is seamless AR and VR and seamless AR where you can put a screen up

01:20:09   in front of somebody is quite possible. And at that point we won't need displays anymore,

01:20:15   but it feels like that's a long way off. So I think like the thing that Seth is talking about

01:20:21   here is this mixed reality headset because they say a $3,000. Right. So it's $3,000 at that price

01:20:27   point. And like, this is a great idea if it, if you discount the comfort of it, right? Because

01:20:35   I'll tell you, right? Like I said, someone, I have an Oculus Quest. I can't have it on for three,

01:20:39   four hours at a time. I watched a 3D, I watched the doctor who 50th anniversary special in 3D

01:20:45   on my Oculus Quest two. It took me four sessions to do it. Yeah. Cause it was just not very

01:20:53   comfortable and it's better now cause I've got the new, uh, I've got the, the upgraded, uh, strap

01:20:59   that actually is comfortable even, even so I, you know, I play 11 table tennis for 45 minutes and

01:21:06   I'm like, I'm done for awhile. And my face is all flushed. I'm really, really, really, really,

01:21:11   really, really, really bad at table tennis is what I've learned. Okay. You should add me as a friend

01:21:15   and then I'll just beat you. Well, no, this is why I won't do that because I'm really, really,

01:21:19   really, really, really, really bad. It's a fun game. I'm just terrible at it. So, so that's,

01:21:25   I mean, that's my answer to Seth is that in the long run. Yeah, sure. Like I love the idea that

01:21:30   in the long run, like let's, let's put it all out there with hand tracking, precise hand and finger

01:21:35   tracking. You should be able to put on this magical futuristic set of AR glasses that don't

01:21:42   squeeze your face and make you miserable and sit anywhere and put your hands out and type into the

01:21:48   air and have it all work and mouse with your finger and do all whatever you want, whatever

01:21:53   works for you and have it all be virtual. That, that absolutely is a thing that could happen.

01:21:59   And I think the challenge is going to be, uh, ergonomics and that's not just the ergonomics

01:22:03   of the thing that you clamp on your face, but it's also the ergonomics of things like, what do I do

01:22:09   for eight hours? Am I standing? Am I sitting? Am I typing in the air or am I typing on a solid

01:22:14   surface? Uh, is a keyboard better ergonomically because of the feedback it gives you or is it

01:22:21   pointless and you don't need it anymore? And some of that stuff is unknown, honestly. Um,

01:22:26   and my guess is it's complicated and different bodies are going to react differently, but like,

01:22:30   what are the best practices for a completely virtual environment beyond the thing clamped

01:22:35   to your face? It's just going to take a while, but maybe someday. Jay asks, in terms of cloud storage,

01:22:42   Dropbox or iCloud? Dropbox for me, I use iCloud more than I used to, but I, uh, I pay for

01:22:50   Dropbox and I use it all the time. I use a bunch of Dropbox features that iCloud doesn't support.

01:22:55   So if iCloud supported every feature that Dropbox that I use in Dropbox, I would consider using

01:23:02   iCloud instead because I found iCloud to be fairly reliable, although less reliable than Dropbox,

01:23:08   but fairly reliable. It's way better than it used to be, but I use shared folders and file requests

01:23:16   and, you know, I, I project, yeah, versioning and undelete and rewind and all sorts of these

01:23:24   features that iCloud doesn't have any of that. And I don't think it's ever going to have most of that

01:23:28   because those are like pro features and I can't really imagine Apple, uh, implementing all of

01:23:35   them, but if it were to do so, I would consider it. But for my use Dropbox, for sure. Yeah. And

01:23:40   I'm the same, you know, even like that, that I think they call it, I don't think it's called

01:23:48   smart sync. Is that the one where like it keeps all of your stuff and you just download what you

01:23:52   need? Yeah. I was really unsure about that feature, but I use it now, um, on my MacBook Pro and I love

01:23:59   it because the great thing is I have a terabyte of stuff in my Dropbox. So I can't, I can't, you know,

01:24:07   it's, it's very expensive for me to get computers that I can actually have all of my files on in

01:24:12   that way. Right. Um, so I really liked that. Um, that's it. I, I, I, I liked that feature a lot

01:24:19   and, and it's smart. It does a good job, but this, you know, this thing that you're saying about like

01:24:22   Dropbox is rock solid for me. Right. And so the idea of me ever thinking about moving to iCloud

01:24:29   for file storage is just unfathomable. Right. If Dropbox is around, I'm just going to use Dropbox

01:24:34   because I don't have issues with Dropbox and any issues I do have, you know, like if I was to have

01:24:39   some kind of file issue, something got deleted when I didn't need it to, they have a very usable

01:24:44   system for going in and getting that stuff out. You try and recover a file from iCloud that you've

01:24:51   accidentally deleted, right. Or like that there's a, somebody's made an edit on it. It's, it's barely,

01:24:56   it's like barely, barely possible. I do use iCloud a lot. Like if an app has iCloud syncing

01:25:04   for its data, I'll use that. But when it comes to like where my files are stored, I use Dropbox.

01:25:10   Like for example, numbers and pages, I use iCloud. Great. Like it's all there. And I, I kind of

01:25:16   consider that as like the apps syncing system, but when it comes to like, where do I save my PDFs,

01:25:23   I save them in Dropbox. Yes. Yeah. All my stories are in a stories folder on Dropbox. That's linked

01:25:30   to the editor that I use on iOS. And so it syncs. And could I do that with iCloud? Maybe. And I might

01:25:38   at some point, but again, I set it up with Dropbox and it works great. And when I've tried to do that

01:25:43   with iCloud, I do end up in those situations sometimes where iCloud just doesn't see the

01:25:47   changes. It's very frustrating. And that's why I said it's more reliable. Dropbox has those issues

01:25:53   occasionally. iCloud has them more than occasionally, even now. It's much better than it

01:25:58   used to be, but it's just not there. So I don't, I'm not going to drag either of these cause they

01:26:03   do both have their uses, but I think honestly, I would say, I think we're very close to the

01:26:08   expected result here. I think iCloud, you know, they had these issues with folder sharing and like

01:26:14   it was there and they took it away in the betas and all that, but like folder sharing among people

01:26:17   in iCloud, that's a feature that Apple should add. But a lot of the stuff we use Dropbox for,

01:26:22   I'm not sure I would advocate that. I mean, if they could reconceive time machine to be a front

01:26:28   end to iCloud file versioning so that you could, that would be, that would be a feature that would

01:26:34   be nice and good because versioning is there on IO or on a, on MacOS in iCloud, but it's,

01:26:42   it's weird. And I'm not sure it's iCloud based as well as it's machine-based. So like I could

01:26:48   see them doing versioning at a consumer level and I can see them do doing folder sharing, but

01:26:53   some of the stuff we use Dropbox for, they're never going to do that. So that's, and that's fine,

01:26:58   right? Because Dropbox is a professional tool for lots of stuff that iCloud never needs to be.

01:27:05   And so I think if Apple, Apple doesn't have to be Dropbox to make iCloud what it should be,

01:27:11   but I don't think iCloud is what it should be yet.

01:27:16   Uh, and finally today from Teague who asks, other than CoreRecorder,

01:27:20   have you come across any apps that do not work on M1 Macs?

01:27:23   I haven't. CoreRecorder was the first one and I didn't even know. I didn't know until that article

01:27:31   came out cause I hadn't tried to install it because I hadn't done any recordings on my Mac Pro.

01:27:35   So I haven't had anything else. It's the first one. I mean, that's, it's why it was

01:27:40   honestly such a surprise for me because I thought everything just worked.

01:27:45   Yeah. I, um, I think Photoshop works on it, but I'm using the Photoshop beta that's native on

01:27:50   Apple Silicon. But other than that, I have not run into anything. Cause we had the great Catalina

01:27:57   32 bit app death. Right. And I haven't tried to run, you know, obviously like VMware or something

01:28:04   like that running windows emulation would have a problem. Right. But I'm not, I haven't tried any

01:28:08   of that. And those apps that I really relied on other than CoreRecorder are mostly the apps that

01:28:14   I, that I already replaced because of Catalina and the 32 bit apocalypse. So, um, no, when I

01:28:20   use my MacBook air, it's just, it's just great. It just works. It's all those things, right? It's

01:28:25   just, it's fine. It has been the least dramatic switch over. Um, which is why I think that the

01:28:33   paying the price in the summer of 19 with Catalina was smart on Apple's part because they got to

01:28:40   clear the decks and make the chip transition, not the painful transition. I have no doubt that there

01:28:47   are tools and services that people use that don't work, but that I think now on the niche ends,

01:28:52   listen to David, who is our, our sort of music professor in the, in the discord said, there are

01:28:58   a lot of, uh, audio and music apps that don't work. Although I will say there are also a lot of

01:29:02   audio apps that claim they don't work, but they actually do work like isotope for the longest time

01:29:08   was like, you can't even run it on, on a big Sur, let alone on Apple Silicon. And it's like, well,

01:29:13   it runs on big Sur just fine. And it runs an Apple Silicon just fine, but there's a lot of like,

01:29:18   there's a lot of qualification stuff. And then there's the stuff that really doesn't work. And

01:29:21   there were a lot of like audio plugins that ran on Intel. And when you tried to run an

01:29:25   Intel audio plugin in an app that was running on Apple Silicon, you had these very weird conflicts

01:29:30   and there's stuff like that. That's been kind of broken. So if you're in a particular niche, you

01:29:33   may have to face that. But, um, even there, I found with a lot of these professional tools,

01:29:39   what they are is they're afraid to claim compatibility because of the support issues.

01:29:43   And sometimes it's just not true. Sometimes it's just like, well, what I had somebody say,

01:29:48   well, I can't get an Apple Silicon Mac, or I can't upgrade to big Sur because isotope doesn't work in

01:29:53   it. And I said, well, I've been using isotope with big Sur for months now on and now on Apple Silicon

01:29:57   and it works fine. They're like, but the webpage says it doesn't work. I'm like, well, I don't know

01:30:00   what to tell you about their webpage. I just tried it and it worked. So it's okay with me.

01:30:05   I think it's one of the things that's made the M1 Mac so fantastic, at least for me is I don't

01:30:11   really think about the fact that it's doing something different. I just know that everything

01:30:16   it does is amazing. So it's like, it just feels so good to use. Like I, I, I'm really struggling

01:30:24   to kind of get my thoughts out about why I love my Mac Pro so much, but it just, everything just

01:30:34   feels nice to use in a way that I feel like I hadn't experienced on the Mac in a while. Like I,

01:30:40   I can't, I don't really know why this is the case, but when I sit down at my iMac, it doesn't feel

01:30:46   like the same experience as when I sit down with my MacBook Pro. And I'm, and I'm, I'm not completely

01:30:52   gotten around to understanding why that is yet, except to say that the M1 Macs are really very

01:31:00   special and cool. Yeah, they, they are. It's, it's a joy when I was traveling, I took it with me.

01:31:07   And when we went to our little vacation house for the weekend and it was great. It's just, yeah,

01:31:16   it's a pleasure. It's a pleasure to use. It's fast, even editing podcasts and de-noising things

01:31:21   running in Rosetta 2. And it's like, it's, it's great. Love it.

01:31:26   If you would like to send in a question for us to answer on the show, you can tweet with the

01:31:31   hashtag #askupgrade or use question mark ask upgrade in the Relay FM members discord,

01:31:37   which you can get access to. If you sign up for upgrade plus go to get upgrade plus.com

01:31:42   where you will get longer ad free episodes of upgrade every single week on today's upgrade.

01:31:47   Plus we talk about power, but not that kind electricity and planning for power outages and

01:31:57   solar panels and electric cars and things like that. Because, because dear listener,

01:32:01   we've reached the end. Now, my electricity provider sent me a letter in the mail last week

01:32:07   that said, dear Jason during upgrade, we're going to turn off your power probably. Yeah. And I,

01:32:12   I had to find ways of dealing with that. And now that we've reached the end, I'd be happy to say,

01:32:16   ha ha. We escaped. We did it. They can shut it off right now and it won't matter.

01:32:23   But if you'd like to hear a conversation we had about that and all the weird and wonderful ways

01:32:27   that that went go to getupgradeplus.com to sign up $5 a month, $50 a year, you get loads of great

01:32:34   stuff and you help support us and the show. I would also like to thank ExpressVPN, HelloFresh

01:32:40   and Spokes for their support of this episode. If you'd like to find Jason online, you can go to

01:32:44   sixcolors.com where you can find lots of wonderful articles from Jason, the incomparable.com for lots

01:32:50   of wonderful podcasts and here at Relay FM as well. Don't forget to go subscribe to Liftoff

01:32:55   at relay.fm/Liftoff to get their very special episode on, uh, later on this week with Ron Moore,

01:33:02   the creator of For All Mankind. I'm so excited to listen to that. If you'd like to find Jason

01:33:08   on Twitter as well, he's @JSNEL, J S N E double L. I am @imike, I M Y K E. If you'd like to find links

01:33:14   and information about this episode, it should be on your podcast app of choice, but if they're not,

01:33:18   go to relay.fm/upgrade/339. And we'll be back next week. Until then, say goodbye Jason Snell.

01:33:27   Goodbye, Michael Hurley.