00:00:08 ◼ ► From Relay FM, this is Upgrade, episode 352, and today's show is brought to you by Pingdom,
00:00:16 ◼ ► ExpressVPN and Ooni Pizza Ovens. My name is Myke Hurley and I'm joined by Jason Snow. Hi Jason Snow.
00:00:22 ◼ ► Hi Myke Hurley. How are you? I'm doing okay, how are you? I'm very good and I have a #snowtalk
00:00:28 ◼ ► question for you coming from Zach and Zach wants to know, "Jason, do you use night shift on any of
00:00:33 ◼ ► your devices and if so, at what intensity and do you, if you do use it, it's a secondary if you do
00:00:38 ◼ ► use it question, do you feel like it helps you wind down in the evening?" Now I'm going to add a
00:00:43 ◼ ► little bit of color to Zach's question here, which is that there were some stories this week about
00:00:54 ◼ ► blue wavelengths late in the evening helps people sleep, which when night shift came out,
00:01:00 ◼ ► I was actually really careful about this because a lot of people were like, "Oh yeah, it'll help
00:01:06 ◼ ► you sleep," and there's no, there was really no good solid evidence that that was true,
00:01:11 ◼ ► and there's more solid evidence that it's not true now. So that's the background. That said,
00:01:19 ◼ ► on my iPad and actually on my e-readers, on my Kindle and Kobo e-readers, I do have their
00:01:29 ◼ ► orangey light feature turned on and so on my iPad at night after sunset it turns on a little bit,
00:01:39 ◼ ► it's not super intense but a little bit. This is not because of any belief really that I have in
00:01:51 ◼ ► I kind of like warmer colored light. Most of the lights in my house are warmer. If you could see
00:02:00 ◼ ► me now in my office, I have a wall that is painted orange and I have a wall that is painted white
00:02:07 ◼ ► with an orange tint and I have a bunch of lights that are also warm orangey colors. It's like I'm
00:02:14 ◼ ► living inside an orange and that's the way I like it. But what I'm saying is I actually kind of like
00:02:23 ◼ ► it when things are kind of that warm color and also I feel like the warmer, the redder,
00:02:29 ◼ ► oranger wavelengths don't light up a room as much. They don't do that and that is good if you're
00:02:35 ◼ ► sharing a room with somebody who's trying to go to sleep. So I've got some reasons for it. I do it a
00:02:41 ◼ ► little bit. I don't do it on my Mac. I don't do it on my iPhone but because the iPad and the
00:02:46 ◼ ► Kindles are the things that I'm reading in bed with, those are the ones that I have it on just
00:02:51 ◼ ► because I find it kind of more comfortable but it doesn't have anything to do with any expectation
00:02:56 ◼ ► that it's helping me in any way medically because I'm pretty sure it is. I use night shift on all
00:03:02 ◼ ► of my devices just because I find it more comfortable to have the orangey light than the
00:03:07 ◼ ► blue light in the evening. I just like the way it looks more. I never really thought that it – I
00:03:16 ◼ ► never really put much thought into the science of it. I kind of didn't really care honestly because
00:03:22 ◼ ► I feel like it's probably better to use no devices late in the evening if we really want to go down
00:03:28 ◼ ► that road. But I don't – I like the way that the orangey light looks. I have it do the sunset to
00:03:36 ◼ ► sunrise thing automatically. I think it's really nice. I guess I have – I mean I have true tones.
00:03:42 ◼ ► So in my living room for example or even in my bedroom with the lights on, I think the color
00:03:49 ◼ ► would be more yellowy orangey. They work nicely together. The problem is that then you turn the
00:03:55 ◼ ► light off and there's no light. And I did this as a test knowing that this question was coming. I
00:04:00 ◼ ► actually turned off night shift briefly last night and I was like, "Ew, yuck." I turned it back on.
00:04:10 ◼ ► serious color fidelity in any context where night shift is on. It's not about that. So I'm not
00:04:18 ◼ ► worried about it. If you'd like to send in a question to help us answer – to open an episode
00:04:23 ◼ ► of the show just like Zach did, just send in a tweet with the hashtag #snowtalk or use question
00:04:28 ◼ ► marks #snowtalk in the Relay FM members Discord. We have some color-based follow-up. This is all
00:04:33 ◼ ► color, this first section of the show. Let's talk about night shift and we're going to talk about
00:04:37 ◼ ► colorful computers. So Jon Prosser, who previously was correct about the iMac being released in a
00:04:42 ◼ ► variety of colors, has another report that a future MacBook will get the same treatment.
00:04:48 ◼ ► This computer is expected to be a consumer laptop, probably an Air, but maybe a new MacBook. Now I'm
00:04:57 ◼ ► actually going to put my flag in the ground here and say this is a MacBook, not a MacBook Air.
00:05:04 ◼ ► That's just what I think is going to happen. There was a previous report from Ming-Chi Kuo and there
00:05:10 ◼ ► have been some other reports that there would be a new MacBook of some kind released in late 2021,
00:05:15 ◼ ► early 2022 for refresh design, maybe an M2 chip if that's where we are, and the mini LED XDR display.
00:05:29 ◼ ► the way it was supposed to be. Yeah, this is something that's been hovering out there. I know
00:05:34 ◼ ► we've touched on it before. When they did the retina MacBook Air, it was kind of a surprise,
00:05:38 ◼ ► right? Because the feeling, I think all of us sort of felt like Apple was really trying to get rid of
00:05:42 ◼ ► the MacBook Air and they failed. And so they said, "Fine, we'll do an update to the retina MacBook
00:05:47 ◼ ► Air." I'm not clear that, remember their idea was to do a MacBook and a MacBook Pro and it just
00:05:52 ◼ ► didn't work. They were too expensive and people resisted and they kept buying the MacBook Air.
00:05:57 ◼ ► And so now you have to ask yourself, is Apple really committed to MacBook Air as a product in
00:06:03 ◼ ► the long run? Is Apple committed to that particular design of MacBook Air in the long run? I don't
00:06:10 ◼ ► know. I honestly don't know. I think the scenario you describe where they're sort of like replacing
00:06:18 ◼ ► the Air with something that's more like a MacBook and it's a thin light thing, kind of like the old
00:06:24 ◼ ► MacBook. They kind of like playing the game they already played, playing that game again. I get it.
00:06:31 ◼ ► However, it gives me some pause because that's what they tried the last time. It didn't work.
00:06:39 ◼ ► Yeah, but there's a few things that I would expect they would learn in my scenario. So one is
00:06:46 ◼ ► it's not overly expensive. It has to come in at the same kind of price that a MacBook Air comes out.
00:06:56 ◼ ► Well, I mean, they've got it in the iPad. This is what I'm saying. As well, all of the devices
00:07:04 ◼ ► are going to get these XDR displays. This is going to be eventually across the entire line.
00:07:09 ◼ ► And again, who knows if it will actually have the XDR display? That's one report. But this is my
00:07:15 ◼ ► kind of scenario that I'm painting here. You wouldn't bring in a new MacBook and price it
00:07:19 ◼ ► more than the MacBook Air because you've learned that it didn't work last time. Make sure that it
00:07:24 ◼ ► has enough IO on it. We're going to talk about that with another product in a minute. Make it
00:07:28 ◼ ► look really cool, come in a bunch of colors and people will buy it. Like, I personally don't
00:07:33 ◼ ► believe that there is a particular affinity for the Air part of the MacBook. It was just
00:07:42 ◼ ► Well, this is my problem with this. My problem with this idea, because I think it makes perfect
00:07:47 ◼ ► sense to say, "Why don't we just make it the MacBook and we're going to retire the Air name,
00:07:53 ◼ ► but it's going to fill that slot." The problem is, are they really going to do it that way?
00:07:58 ◼ ► Because one way, yes, you're right. You're 100% right. The way to fix this problem is to say,
00:08:13 ◼ ► starts at the same price. However, Apple, in modern times, tends to do a lot of this stuff
00:08:23 ◼ ► where they're like, "We're going to keep the old model around because it's a little bit cheaper
00:08:28 ◼ ► and it's a little more affordable." And if they do that, they're back where they were before,
00:08:32 ◼ ► where people are going to be like, "Yeah, but the MacBook Air is fine. I'll just get the MacBook
00:08:36 ◼ ► Air for $999. I don't need to get this new MacBook." So, Myke, I think that's the real question is,
00:08:41 ◼ ► is Apple going to attempt to do a switcheroo? Because you're talking about potentially a new
00:08:48 ◼ ► Apple Silicon chip. I kind of assumed that the M1 MacBook Air would stick around for a while.
00:08:52 ◼ ► Again, nicer screen, better processor, color options. Great. That's all great. I just keep
00:09:04 ◼ ► thinking, but if they keep the old one around at a cheaper price, I feel like they may be stepping
00:09:09 ◼ ► into the exact same situation they were in before, where by keeping that other one around, it's
00:09:17 ◼ ► literally all people need. That's the great thing about the MacBook Air is the reason it's sold,
00:09:22 ◼ ► not Retina, for so long and still sold well is because for a lot of people, it was like, "Look,
00:09:28 ◼ ► this is the base price Mac laptop that I can buy new and that's all I want." And all these other
00:09:33 ◼ ► fancy features that cost a few hundred dollars more, I'm not going to even worry about it.
00:09:36 ◼ ► So that's my worry about this is that if you keep the MacBook Air around, people will still
00:09:43 ◼ ► buy it. So is Apple prepared to wipe the M1 MacBook Air off the price list and replace it
00:09:51 ◼ ► with a new, whether they call it an Air or just a MacBook, a new low price laptop? I don't know
00:09:59 ◼ ► if they're capable of that, like mentally capable of it. Like can they manage to not do the Tim Cook
00:10:06 ◼ ► doctrine, just keep the old one around at a lower price kind of thing? Yeah, my hope would be that
00:10:13 ◼ ► they do what they did with the iMac, where to get the 21-inch iMac, which is still available
00:10:20 ◼ ► on apple.com, you have to really, really hump for it. And I expect they're only really keeping it
00:10:27 ◼ ► around at the moment because they're in a bit of a chip transition, so they want to just make sure
00:10:31 ◼ ► that that's available in one configuration for people. So I'm kind of like, I'm putting my hopes
00:10:37 ◼ ► on this because this is what I want them to do, right? Like I want them to get rid of the MacBook
00:10:42 ◼ ► Air and replace it with a comparable in kind of all of the IO that you'd need, plus it's going to
00:10:49 ◼ ► look cooler and it's going to be nicer and truly built around the M1, the same way that they did
00:10:54 ◼ ► that with the iMac and it's treated with the iMac. You go to the iMac page, the only iMacs you can
00:10:59 ◼ ► find are the 24-inch iMacs. And if you go all the way to the bottom of one page, you can see a tiny
00:11:06 ◼ ► link, which lets you find the old one. That's what I hope that they do. I could see them doing it,
00:11:11 ◼ ► but I understand where you're coming from because history has shown that they really do struggle.
00:11:18 ◼ ► But my hope will be that Apple will continue to be so proud of the machines that they're making
00:11:23 ◼ ► right now, like more than they have been maybe in years, that they will be willing to do the shift
00:11:30 ◼ ► that should have happened a long time ago. Every other product has product and pro, right? Like
00:11:35 ◼ ► product and pro, this is where they're going. But then when it gets to the Mac laptops, where it
00:11:40 ◼ ► should be the simplest because they have a MacBook Pro, but there's no MacBook, right? It's like,
00:11:45 ◼ ► that line doesn't really make logical sense anymore. And I think the MacBook Air is stuck
00:11:51 ◼ ► around for so long just because when they tried it, they tried it wrong. They did it wrong,
00:11:56 ◼ ► right? Like the MacBook was the wrong product for that time. And it wasn't just that it was more
00:12:00 ◼ ► expensive. It was also less capable. It had a retina screen, but it was a slower processor,
00:12:04 ◼ ► essentially. And that was the killer. That thing, I mean, I had one for a bit. It was very easy to
00:12:11 ◼ ► get it into a situation where it was draining battery when plugged in, fasted, and charging,
00:12:15 ◼ ► which is a thing that I used to have with that machine. Like if I was, you know, like if you're
00:12:19 ◼ ► doing anything intensive, like exploring audio, exploring video, not only did it take a long time,
00:12:24 ◼ ► it also would burn through battery faster than you could charge the thing up. Like that machine was
00:12:29 ◼ ► just beautiful and really cool. And one of my favorite Mac designs, like visually, but when it
00:12:37 ◼ ► came down to using it, it just couldn't go the distance. But that really is that product, that
00:12:42 ◼ ► kind of physical size and weight. That's what the consumer laptop should be. It should be thin and
00:12:48 ◼ ► light and incredibly portable, more so than the current MacBook Air is. I think the current
00:12:58 ◼ ► - Let me throw out a scenario here, which is what if Apple has a new laptop design that is a little
00:13:06 ◼ ► more like that MacBook, a little less like the MacBook Air? It's a little smaller. Maybe it's
00:13:10 ◼ ► a 12-inch display instead of a 13-inch display. And we've had some rumors that that might exist,
00:13:19 ◼ ► I could see a scenario where maybe what Apple does is replace the MacBook Air with a MacBook,
00:13:25 ◼ ► but what they're really doing is kind of having an old MacBook Air and a new MacBook Air.
00:13:39 ◼ ► amazing? It's got the new M2 processor. It comes in all of these colors. It's got this beautiful
00:13:44 ◼ ► retina, mini-LED, XDR 12-inch screen. It's state-of-the-art. It's amazing. And it starts
00:13:52 ◼ ► at the old MacBook Air price of $999. And then we go to the product page and we find that, well,
00:13:57 ◼ ► the $999 model only comes in silver and it has the M1 in it. And you're like, "Oh, you just took the
00:14:04 ◼ ► guts of the old MacBook Air and put it in the $999 MacBook." And then the fancy stuff with colors and
00:14:12 ◼ ► a new processor and maybe even the better display, but maybe not, that's in the more expensive models.
00:14:18 ◼ ► That's in the $1299. That they might do. - As long as it has the new design, maybe not the colors,
00:14:25 ◼ ► but it has like new design and some of the new features, again, not all of them. - Maybe it has
00:14:30 ◼ ► the display and the new design and an M1, but instead of an M2 and doesn't come in other colors,
00:14:36 ◼ ► or maybe it's got two colors or something like that, like they do with these iMacs that are
00:14:40 ◼ ► coming out, that the base model doesn't get all the great stuff, even though they're all M1s.
00:14:49 ◼ ► without giving away all of the... 'Cause that's what my stumbling block here is. They're like,
00:14:53 ◼ ► "XDR display and an M2 chip." And all these colors. And I think, okay, but now it sounds
00:15:01 ◼ ► more expensive than the MacBook Air and people are still just gonna buy the MacBook Air, but they
00:15:05 ◼ ► could do a little switcheroo kind of thing, deprecate the MacBook Air, but replace it with
00:15:10 ◼ ► something that is the MacBook Air-esque at the base of the... And then you don't have two models,
00:15:18 ◼ ► even though you really do, you just have different configurations of MacBook. And that is a very
00:15:25 ◼ ► modern Apple thing to do. - So I've been talking about the new laptops. On today's episode,
00:15:30 ◼ ► actually, there's a bunch of stuff that I wanna catch up on that's been happening over the last
00:15:35 ◼ ► few weeks, but we've been completely in new product territory. So some stuff is about the
00:15:43 ◼ ► other laptops in Apple's lineup. So there are supply chain reports coming from Taiwan that
00:15:47 ◼ ► suggest that the upcoming MacBook Pro would also feature the same XDR display that we've seen in
00:15:53 ◼ ► the new iPad Pro line. So, I mean, that was something I guess we kind of assumed, but now
00:15:57 ◼ ► we know more about it. I think when we were talking about mini-LED before, I kind of didn't
00:16:02 ◼ ► really know much about it. And I'm really keen to see the displays, 'cause I remember, I think it was
00:16:07 ◼ ► the Pro, or the iPhone 12, or maybe it was the 11, one of the things was like, "Oh, and the display
00:16:14 ◼ ► is so much better." And it was kind of, I didn't really see it. So I'm really keen to see what the
00:16:19 ◼ ► XDR display looks like on the new iPad Pros, but that should be coming to the new laptops.
00:16:25 ◼ ► And there was a really weird story where some schematics were stolen from a supplier that
00:16:30 ◼ ► Apple uses called Quanta Computing. And this, I think Reevil, Reevil is this group, and they were
00:16:38 ◼ ► kind of putting these schematics to ransom and Apple didn't do anything about them, so they
00:16:42 ◼ ► started releasing them. And it confirmed some of the previous reports about what the ports are
00:16:48 ◼ ► going to be like on the upcoming MacBook Pros. So these schematics seem to suggest that the new
00:16:54 ◼ ► MacBook Pro line, the 14 and 16 inch, will have on the right hand side, a HDMI port and an SD card
00:17:03 ◼ ► reader and one Thunderbolt USB-C port on the right side, and two more Thunderbolt ports and a MagSafe
00:17:09 ◼ ► charger on the left hand side. The current 16 inch, so the newest design, has four Thunderbolt
00:17:18 ◼ ► ports. So on the new models, you'll lose one Thunderbolt port, but you gain HDMI, SD card,
00:17:33 ◼ ► with the additional ones. Because if you had to charge on the current ones, where you just lost
00:17:37 ◼ ► a USB port, right, the schematics also seem to confirm that the touch bar is going to be removed
00:17:45 ◼ ► from the new laptops. - Not too much of a surprise, right? And again, I feel like we need to say this
00:17:55 ◼ ► about a lot of these things. Sometimes we condemn something, we're not condemning you liking it.
00:18:02 ◼ ► I know there are fans of the touch bar out there. - I like it. - I think the problem here is that
00:18:06 ◼ ► Apple never, essentially never updated the software. - No, they didn't do enough of it.
00:18:14 ◼ ► they, if Apple wanted it to succeed and for a lot of people to love it, they needed to really
00:18:20 ◼ ► support it properly. And they never really did, which I find mystifying. I think that they,
00:18:24 ◼ ► this is one of those cases where you, if you're going to do that, you need to do it right.
00:18:27 ◼ ► Otherwise, why did you bother? And obviously somebody made a call that they thought they were
00:18:33 ◼ ► going to be able to make this work. And they either thought it was perfect as is and never
00:18:37 ◼ ► needed to be updated, which it wasn't, or they thought they had sway over software choices that
00:18:43 ◼ ► they didn't have sway over, but it's not surprising to have it be gone, I think. - And my personal bet
00:18:50 ◼ ► is that I bet you get ethernet on the power brick. I bet they do that. It wouldn't surprise me if they
00:18:57 ◼ ► did that. - That's an interesting idea, right? You dock and well, okay, so MagSafe is the rumor,
00:19:05 ◼ ► right? And I think that's the question is, I've said this before, I'm just going to throw it out
00:19:16 ◼ ► but MagSafe to just do power is a very Apple of a decade ago product, right? Apple introduced it
00:19:25 ◼ ► that way, but I still don't think we should think of it that way. If I'm going to have a magnetic
00:19:29 ◼ ► connector, I want more stuff on it, right? I want at least, yes, you said we have this with the IMAX
00:19:35 ◼ ► now. You can put networking on the brick because the ethernet adapter, otherwise you've got to
00:19:40 ◼ ► have an ethernet dongle because the ethernet plug is way too big for a laptop, but you could put it
00:19:44 ◼ ► on the brick. You could also put USB, you can make the brick a USB-C hub. You could put ports on the
00:19:52 ◼ ► brick. That would be great, especially if you're losing ports on the device because you're adding
00:19:58 ◼ ► MagSafe. What if you're losing ports on the laptop when you're plugged in, but when you're plugged
00:20:04 ◼ ► in, you're gaining ports on the plug. - I would love that. - That is actually pretty nice, right?
00:20:09 ◼ ► So I'm going to hold out hope that they do something like that. And the fact that they did
00:20:15 ◼ ► it on the iMac is a good sign. - I don't think that they would have gone through the amount of
00:20:22 ◼ ► work that surely they had to go through to make that work just so they could put ethernet on the
00:20:27 ◼ ► iMac power brick, right? Because I feel like you would want to do it for more than one product,
00:20:34 ◼ ► right? But we'll see. So yeah, there's a lot of intriguing stuff. I'm personally really looking
00:20:43 ◼ ► forward to these new MacBook Pros. They sound super cool. - As excited as we all were about
00:20:50 ◼ ► Apple Silicon, which was the right thing to do, right? Chip transition, what does it mean? Apple's
00:20:54 ◼ ► prowess in making chips on iOS devices coming to the Mac, that's all great. But the 2020 Apple
00:21:03 ◼ ► Silicon Macs are reruns with new chips in them, right? Like the whole point was like, we're not
00:21:08 ◼ ► going to change the computer. What's exciting about 2021 Macs is I'm getting the feeling that
00:21:13 ◼ ► 2021 is the year where we see redesigned hardware. That it's not, you know, this is the great
00:21:20 ◼ ► opportunity. It's always been something that we've talked about regarding Apple Silicon, you know,
00:21:25 ◼ ► transition to Apples on processors is they can revisit fundamentally what it means to be a Mac.
00:21:30 ◼ ► Like they don't have any Intel constraints. They can build their hardware and guide the chip design
00:21:36 ◼ ► to the place they want it to go. And I also get the sense like the iMac is a good example where
00:21:42 ◼ ► they held off on making changes. Cause I'm like, look, we're going to do that after the chip
00:21:46 ◼ ► transition. If we do it now, we have to make it work with Intel. Let's not bother. We'll wait.
00:21:50 ◼ ► It'll make our chip running on Macs look better because it'll also be on a bunch of snazzy new
00:21:56 ◼ ► models. And won't that be great. And so this year we seem to be getting a whole bunch of new
00:22:01 ◼ ► Mac designs. Um, the IMAX were one, but these laptops are another and that's great because
00:22:08 ◼ ► Apple's Mac designs have been really static for a long time. This episode of upgrade is brought to
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00:24:29 ◼ ► made the last time through was a little bit too wet and so it wasn't holding together well. And so
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00:24:42 ◼ ► kind of blackened on the edges and the cheese was bubbled and all of that stuff, I turned the gas
00:24:48 ◼ ► off because that pizza stone is still radiating heat. And so it stopped melting the stuff on top
00:24:56 ◼ ► and just radiated out of the bottom. And that was the trick that allowed me to save the wetter pizza
00:25:01 ◼ ► dough and have it hold together when I took it out. So that was a new tip. I'm still learning
00:25:18 ◼ ► - If you want to be cool like Jason, you should go get yourself an Ooni Pizza Oven. The listeners
00:25:22 ◼ ► of this show can get 10% off their purchase, which could be up to $50 on an Ooni Code of 16,
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00:26:06 ◼ ► Ooni Pizza Ovens for their support of this show. So we referenced this a little bit last week.
00:26:11 ◼ ► We're through to week one of Apple versus Epic. I'll put some links in the show notes. There was
00:26:17 ◼ ► a really good kind of breakdown of each day on 9to5Mac. They kind of just pulled out some of the
00:26:23 ◼ ► more interesting things that happen on each day. Were you keeping up with this story actively at
00:26:29 ◼ ► all during the last week? - Actively, no. Passively, yes. I'm not interested in covering this story.
00:26:38 ◼ ► - Honestly, I feel bad for people that have to listen to the whole thing. - Yeah, well,
00:26:42 ◼ ► apparently it actually sounds terrible. The audio quality is terrible. I think one person said that
00:26:48 ◼ ► it sounds like these people are testifying while a pillow is over their face, basically. But I did,
00:26:56 ◼ ► you know, again, this is a good use of Twitter because people who are paying attention will say,
00:27:03 ◼ ► "Oh, well, this is an interesting thing that somebody said," or, "Here's a document that
00:27:06 ◼ ► came up," or something like that. And that stuff is fine. But yeah, I have no interest in investing
00:27:22 ◼ ► it is their job to listen to the whole thing and report back, that's great. But I've decided it's
00:27:27 ◼ ► not my job. Yes, exactly. - Yeah, because it was like one of the things where I was thinking,
00:27:31 ◼ ► "Do I want to?" And then I tuned in at one point and heard how bad it sounded. And then kind of,
00:27:36 ◼ ► I was like, "I don't want to do this right now." And then, honestly, as the week was going on,
00:27:52 ◼ ► and that might be intriguing. But the thing about when they're on the stand and they're being
00:27:59 ◼ ► questioned, they speak like we hear them speak all the time, right? They speak like executives,
00:28:07 ◼ ► and everything is polished. And not only are they speaking like it's a marketing exercise,
00:28:13 ◼ ► it's also a legal exercise, right? It's like buttoned up, you know, that kind of thing.
00:28:18 ◼ ► But the things that have been really interesting for me, the stuff that I've actually enjoyed,
00:28:22 ◼ ► is seeing a lot of the emails that are being shown that are in evidence. So I saw, I think,
00:28:30 ◼ ► both Ben Thompson and Eli Patel say this in different ways, and I really liked the thought
00:28:35 ◼ ► that one of the biggest risks to Apple through this process with Epic is that their dirty
00:28:40 ◼ ► laundry is being aired in public. We are seeing how the executives talk to each other and about
00:28:47 ◼ ► things and other people. And I feel like with this kind of thing, the veil slips a little bit,
00:28:53 ◼ ► and we see that Apple are a regular company staffed by regular people doing regular business things.
00:29:04 ◼ ► that they paint. Like my favorite thing so far has been the Phil Schiller emails. Like Phil Schiller
00:29:09 ◼ ► sends angry emails about scam apps with a ton of exclamation marks, and there's loads of them,
00:29:13 ◼ ► and they're all fantastic. I love reading them. It's like, "Is nobody approving this stuff?" It's
00:29:18 ◼ ► so good. Some of these things are so good. Well, and this is something that I've found,
00:29:27 ◼ ► it's a big company, and they don't, I think for good reason, they don't want to have that stuff
00:29:35 ◼ ► into the public. Right? They're like, "Oh, no, we have our policy." And really the truth is that
00:29:40 ◼ ► Apple is more disciplined than almost any other company or government in terms of messaging.
00:29:45 ◼ ► That's the trick. This, however, is the problem. I liked the fact, right, that it's not just us
00:29:55 ◼ ► on the outside and people writing stories about Apple needing a bunco squad and all that,
00:30:05 ◼ ► has done such a great job of finding all these scam apps. I really like seeing Phil Schiller
00:30:13 ◼ ► send angry emails too about like, "Why is this thing in the App Store? It's a rip-off."
00:30:17 ◼ ► Of course, then he would go out publicly and say, "Oh, no, we're very carefully curating."
00:30:22 ◼ ► But behind the scenes, he's yelling at people because they allowed this stuff to slip through.
00:30:30 ◼ ► And I think the broader question is why after more than a decade and with all of this money
00:30:35 ◼ ► at your disposal, does this stuff still get through? I think that's an ongoing question
00:30:46 ◼ ► curation of the App Store, that it's not doing a good enough job even now. But yes, it is nice to
00:30:52 ◼ ► see executives and PR people, like there was that moment of like, "Well, should we communicate this?"
00:31:02 ◼ ► we shouldn't." And it's like, "But we're doing this." And they're like, "Yeah, but we shouldn't
00:31:06 ◼ ► communicate that we're doing it." It's like, "Okay, yeah, that makes sense." But it was also
00:31:12 ◼ ► a question of like, "Well, why not? Why not communicate this? It would solve this problem."
00:31:15 ◼ ► It's like, "Yeah, but we're not going to talk about it." Michael Gartenberg, who used to work
00:31:18 ◼ ► at Apple and is on Twitter @Gartenberg, and I would say friend of the show, Michael Gartenberg,
00:31:30 ◼ ► he tweeted something to the effect of, "This is why they told all of us not to ever put anything
00:31:34 ◼ ► in writing. Don't ever put anything like this down in email." So he was kind of amazed that people
00:31:44 ◼ ► these are the outliers. These are the ones that got in email. Presumably, this is a teeny tiny amount,
00:31:59 ◼ ► Yeah, exactly. So think of it that way too, which is this is the stuff that somehow got in email by
00:32:06 ◼ ► people who were not as disciplined as they should have been about it. Because as Michael Gartenberg
00:32:09 ◼ ► pointed out, everybody at Apple knew the kind of stuff that gets subpoenaed, you never put it in
00:32:16 ◼ ► an email. They can't subpoena your voice in a meeting or on a phone call. So that's what you
00:32:29 ◼ ► and then the public sees it. And that's not so great because it does eliminate some of the...
00:32:35 ◼ ► We talk about Apple's product magic and the black box approach to this stuff, and it's just magic
00:33:01 ◼ ► Even that is a little bit too mean. The story they tell about a particular product or policy
00:33:09 ◼ ► or something, they create a narrative that is a PR narrative and it's not always based entirely
00:33:14 ◼ ► in truth. It's also not usually entirely a lie, although some PR narratives are just generally.
00:33:19 ◼ ► But you do this and it's like, "Oh, well, the jig is up to a certain extent." And it's not
00:33:27 ◼ ► an existential crisis or anything, but these are wounds. These are wounds to the way Apple
00:33:33 ◼ ► refers to itself and the way Apple portrays itself. And when we talked last week about Apple
00:33:39 ◼ ► winning the battle but losing the war or that both sides were going to probably come out wounded,
00:33:45 ◼ ► this is the kind of stuff we're talking about. Is this stuff going to matter in terms of Epic
00:33:51 ◼ ► winning this court case? All the observers I've seen looking at it seem to think that it's still
00:33:57 ◼ ► a very difficult case. You never know what might happen, but it seems unlikely to them that Epic
00:34:02 ◼ ► is going to triumph here. But Apple is not going to walk away unscathed, which I think is kind of
00:34:09 ◼ ► Epic's point. Friday, the 3rd of February, 2012. "Privileged and confidential." From Philip Schiller.
00:34:18 ◼ ► "Subject. Urgent. Temple jump. Exclamation mark, exclamation mark, exclamation mark, exclamation
00:34:23 ◼ ► mark." What the hell is this? Remember our talking about finding bad apps with low ratings? Remember
00:34:29 ◼ ► our talk about becoming the Nordstrom of stores in quality of service? Clearly Schiller loves
00:34:35 ◼ ► Nordstrom. How does an obvious ripoff of the super popular Temple run with no screenshots,
00:34:40 ◼ ► garbage marketing tax, and almost all one-star ratings become the number one free app on the
00:34:45 ◼ ► store? Can anyone see a ripoff of a top-selling game? Anyone see an app that is cheating the
00:34:52 ◼ ► system? Is no one reviewing these apps? Is no one minding the store? This is insane. Seven exclamation
00:34:59 ◼ ► marks afterwards. I love it so much. Phil loves Nordstrom but doesn't know that it's not called
00:35:07 ◼ ► Nordstroms, by the way. So I wanted to make... I guess my kind of point on this is like, this stuff
00:35:15 ◼ ► still happens. Like if there's a big popular game that's out on a console, you know, something like
00:35:20 ◼ ► Among Us or whatever, or Fall Guys was a good example, you give it a week or so and you go to
00:35:27 ◼ ► the app store and there's a bunch of ripoffs in the top charts. It's still happening. So the other
00:35:32 ◼ ► one that is good is from 2015 and it from Phil Schiller and it is... Tim received a complaint, I
00:35:40 ◼ ► love that, right? It goes from the person to Tim to Phil. Tim's like, "Forward, Phil." Well also
00:35:47 ◼ ► that is the evoking the boss thing in a corporate environment, right? But like, if the boss got this
00:35:53 ◼ ► complaint, you have to deal with it. Yeah, Tim's asking why this is so, so we need to deal with
00:35:58 ◼ ► this. Tim received a complaint about this app being a scam. Doesn't do what it says, promises
00:36:04 ◼ ► bonus features for five-star reviews, creates fake marketing videos, etc. It is a great example of the
00:36:09 ◼ ► stuff we should have automatic tools to find and kick out of the store. I can't believe we still
00:36:14 ◼ ► don't. It's been three years at this point. Many one-star reviews, many mentioned scam and fake.
00:36:20 ◼ ► Then I look at the developers other apps and see the same issue repeated. Please look into this.
00:36:25 ◼ ► I expect we need to remove the developer from our program and please, all capital letters,
00:36:30 ◼ ► develop a system to automatically find low-rated apps and purge them to exclamation points.
00:36:35 ◼ ► I just want to say for the record, Phil Schiller later went on to take over the app store and they
00:36:41 ◼ ► didn't develop a tool then either, it seems like. So, you know, can't be as easy as you think.
00:36:45 ◼ ► The fact is with Apple's growth, it's possible that they did develop a tool and then the scammers
00:36:50 ◼ ► just moved to a different, moved to a different approach. But yes, I look at this email that is
00:36:55 ◼ ► to among other people at EQ and Greg Joswiak, but also Philip Shoemaker who ran the app store,
00:37:01 ◼ ► Ron Okamoto who recently left Apple, a bunch of people. I look at this and I also think,
00:37:17 ◼ ► You care so much about this, it's yours. Because keeping in mind, although he runs the app store
00:37:23 ◼ ► now and make no mistake, even though he's on the roof, he runs the app store now. Phil didn't go
00:37:28 ◼ ► anywhere, people. He's still around. Keep in mind though, he didn't back when these emails were sent,
00:37:33 ◼ ► which I like thinking that too, because it's somebody who's thinking, he's thinking big
00:37:38 ◼ ► picture about how this affects Apple, but it's not what he's directly in charge of. And knowing
00:37:43 ◼ ► that he was later put in charge of it, like either that's a, "Phil, nobody else is doing it and we
00:37:51 ◼ ► know you care about it, you fix it." Or it's a, "Okay, Phil, stop talking about it. Do something
00:38:09 ◼ ► Honestly, seeing how much he seemed to care about it, I wouldn't be surprised if that was
00:38:13 ◼ ► what happened. Him and Tim had a conversation one day. It's like, I think the only way to make the
00:38:18 ◼ ► change I want to see is to go do it myself. So Phil Schiller, okay, Phil Schiller is like
00:38:23 ◼ ► a character in the Apple story now, right? And we all have seen him at events and he's been
00:38:28 ◼ ► interviewed by like Grouper and we've seen Phil around. So there's that Phil and then there's the
00:38:34 ◼ ► Phil and he's a spokesperson, right? He was the head of communications for the longest time product
00:38:41 ◼ ► Of course, he is somebody that everybody knows from his public appearances and public statements
00:38:45 ◼ ► and all of that. However, he's been at Apple for more than 20 years. He once gave a demo of a
00:38:51 ◼ ► version of OS X to us in the conference room at Macworld, right? He goes back a long time.
00:38:58 ◼ ► And one of my colleagues made him really angry at that meeting. He never came back to our offices
00:39:03 ◼ ► after that. Anyway, so this is what I want to say about Phil Schiller. There's Phil Schiller,
00:39:11 ◼ ► the character who appears and makes public pronouncements and that's his outward facing job.
00:39:15 ◼ ► But in these emails you see, yeah, he's a, I would say opinionated marketing executive and there's
00:39:24 ◼ ► stuff that is in these emails that you're like, "Oh wow, he's really mad here and all that."
00:39:28 ◼ ► My perception of Phil Schiller over the years is that he really cares. He really cares. He really
00:39:35 ◼ ► cares about Apple. He gets really mad when there's bad stuff. And depending on if you're the person
00:39:41 ◼ ► reporting the bad stuff, sometimes you get a little bit of a, "Oh boy, somebody inside Apple
00:39:45 ◼ ► is really mad about this now or that I wrote this or that I said this." You get that sometimes,
00:39:51 ◼ ► and it's an adversarial relationship sometimes and that's fair. But what I've always liked about
00:39:56 ◼ ► Phil Schiller is that he's a passionate guy who cares about the products. He cares about the
00:40:01 ◼ ► company and he gets mad when bad stuff happens to the company, especially if it happens because we,
00:40:10 ◼ ► and I'll tell, somebody did something dumb on the inside. And I only say this because not every
00:40:17 ◼ ► executive at every company really cares like this. They care more about their own standing or ego or
00:40:25 ◼ ► their golden parachute or their stock price. He may care about all those things too, I can't say.
00:40:37 ◼ ► - And this is the thing is there are, and I'm not saying that every Apple executive doesn't
00:40:46 ◼ ► but there are a few of them who are, they are lifers. They legitimately care about this stuff.
00:40:53 ◼ ► It is not just their job to communicate or to run these departments, but I know for a fact that they
00:41:00 ◼ ► obsessively care about it. And Phil Schiller is one of those people. And so separate from his role
00:41:09 ◼ ► as a person who's going to extol the virtues of the various products that he's marketing,
00:41:13 ◼ ► these emails are fun because they show that, yeah, Phil Schiller thinks the app store sucks too,
00:41:19 ◼ ► or at least in 2015, and that Apple should do a better job, which is what we were all saying at
00:41:23 ◼ ► the time. And Apple is of course like, no, no, it's all fine. But internally, it's like, this
00:41:28 ◼ ► is not good enough. And I like that. I like to see somebody actually concerned that their company is
00:41:35 ◼ ► not doing a good enough job. That's, yeah. I mean, I think we could have all expected that this kind
00:41:40 ◼ ► of thing was happening, but here we get to see it. - Couple of, just a little handful of details
00:41:46 ◼ ► that came out that were of interest, I think, over the week. Apple's app review team consists
00:41:52 ◼ ► of 500 people. I think that feels small, maybe. I'm not sure if I feel like that's a lot of people.
00:41:59 ◼ ► It's a lot of people, but they review a lot of apps. - Not when you consider the volume of apps
00:42:04 ◼ ► in the store. - Yeah. When asked, Tim Sweeney said he would have accepted a special deal with Apple
00:42:10 ◼ ► if they offered it. This got a lot of, saw a lot of people talking about this as if to try and
00:42:16 ◼ ► undermine the whole argument, but I don't see what it does. - I know the point they're making here,
00:42:20 ◼ ► which is that Epic has wrapped themselves in this kind of cloak of being a freedom fighter and that
00:42:24 ◼ ► they've gotten other people to join their coalition for app fairness. And they're like, oh, this is,
00:42:30 ◼ ► we're fighting the good fight because Apple is doing this and it's wrong. But I mean, really,
00:42:34 ◼ ► seriously, he's the CEO of a company. And if Apple cut him a deal to get him more money,
00:42:39 ◼ ► he would take it. Of course he would. So they made him say it. - I mean, because I see both
00:42:42 ◼ ► could be true, right? They could take the deal and still feel it's wrong. I'm not saying that
00:42:46 ◼ ► that is the way they are, but you know. - Sure, sure. But you know, they're just trying to puncture
00:42:51 ◼ ► Epic's PR blitz here a little bit because one of the points in this trial is that this was
00:42:55 ◼ ► a calculated PR move by Epic. Epic could have gone through this in a different way, but they decided
00:43:02 ◼ ► to have their video ready to go and their lawsuit ready to file and then performatively release
00:43:10 ◼ ► a thing that violated the rules so that they would get pulled out of the store so that they
00:43:14 ◼ ► could release their video and file their lawsuit. And so this is just another little puncture of
00:43:18 ◼ ► that of like this, you know, you say you're a freedom fighter, but if Apple would just give you
00:43:23 ◼ ► more money, you'd stop fighting. And the answer is, well, yeah. I mean, he is the CEO of the
00:43:27 ◼ ► company. Ultimately the thing that his job is, is to make Epic Games as successful as possible.
00:43:36 ◼ ► That's it. - Because I think one of the things for me that is intriguing in this is there are also
00:43:42 ◼ ► like a lot of emails between that Tim Sweeney sent to various people, including Tim Cook, and he's
00:43:47 ◼ ► asking for Apple to be more open. So it's not like it's a new thing for him to feel this way,
00:43:51 ◼ ► but as you say, he's still the CEO. They would have offered him a special deal. They would have
00:43:54 ◼ ► taken the special deal because this is his job. Sweeney also confirmed that 30% is a similar deal
00:44:00 ◼ ► to what Epic have with the games consoles, which again is like another thing that people keep
00:44:05 ◼ ► pointing out of like, oh, well look, it's, you know, why aren't they taking the games consoles
00:44:10 ◼ ► to court too? My kind of feelings, it's a very different relationship. I wish I could remember
00:44:16 ◼ ► what episode of ATP it was, but I don't remember, but John Siracusa went into it in a really great
00:44:20 ◼ ► detail once of basically just saying like, these are corporate relationships. Like you can, if you
00:44:25 ◼ ► get something in return from the business that you're working with, you might be more happy to
00:44:30 ◼ ► take the 30%. And it seems like Apple give nothing in return, right? Where like games consoles,
00:44:36 ◼ ► they will pay for marketing for your game if you have that kind of relationship with them.
00:44:41 ◼ ► Apple's not doing that. So Apple's argument would be that Apple does a lot of App Store marketing
00:44:48 ◼ ► in the App Store app and highlights apps and those drive sales and that therefore Apple's control of
00:44:55 ◼ ► the App Store front end, which in a different story, they talked about how like, if you pull
00:45:00 ◼ ► all your in-app purchase like Netflix or something out of the system, we're just going to not feature
00:45:03 ◼ ► you on the App Store anymore. And the fact is there's an argument to be made that at least for
00:45:08 ◼ ► some apps, maybe not for apps at the scale of something like Netflix, having promotion in the
00:45:14 ◼ ► App Store matters. And then we know that that's true for smaller apps, but even for large apps,
00:45:20 ◼ ► it may matter. Even if a lot of us don't use the App Store that way, people do and it does actually
00:45:26 ◼ ► make a difference. So that would be the counter argument. I think the argument about what the
00:45:30 ◼ ► business model is of the hardware being sold is ridiculous on its face because I don't think there
00:45:37 ◼ ► are any laws about how you should only make a certain percentage of profit from your total
00:45:42 ◼ ► environment. And that if you make a certain percentage of profit from your hardware sales,
00:45:46 ◼ ► it means you can't make a certain percentage off of the sales of the software sold on the device.
00:45:51 ◼ ► Like I just think it's a bogus argument to say, oh no, consoles are different. And because consoles
00:45:57 ◼ ► are sold without a big profit margin, they have to do it this way. I just, I don't think that there's
00:46:04 ◼ ► any show, show me the law that says, well, if you don't make money on hardware, then you can do this.
00:46:12 ◼ ► But if you do make money on hardware, you can't. It doesn't exist. It doesn't exist. There isn't
00:46:22 ◼ ► that you should have to take the same percentage from another. Right? Like there's no law about
00:46:28 ◼ ► like, oh, because they have a 70/30 split with Sony, Apple were allowed to do a 70/30 split with
00:46:33 ◼ ► them. Right? No, it's, it's a, this is true, but I think, I think the point of, of saying let's, if
00:46:41 ◼ ► your argument is 70 is too much or 30 is too much, 70 is too little. And then you point out to all
00:46:47 ◼ ► these other places where you participate, where it's 70/30 and your response is, well, yeah,
00:46:51 ◼ ► but that's different because I have sympathy for them because their business model is executed on
00:46:57 ◼ ► the premise that that's the only money they get. So they have to take it from me. Like,
00:47:03 ◼ ► I just don't buy it. I just think that that's a dumb argument. Like it's Sony because of the
00:47:09 ◼ ► competitive nature of the hardware, it's Sony's choice and Microsoft's choice to, if it is even
00:47:15 ◼ ► true and Nintendo's choice to sell the razors at cost and make it up on blades. But I don't see the
00:47:24 ◼ ► law somewhere that says razors must be sold at cost and blades can be marked up. So, but if you
00:47:30 ◼ ► reverse it though, like, so I'm a little bit more sympathetic to it, I think, than you. It was just
00:47:36 ◼ ► fine. Everyone, we're operating on a spectrum of our opinions here. Like, I think if you reverse it,
00:47:40 ◼ ► so the business model of 70/30 set, say on PlayStation, because Sony don't make any money
00:47:46 ◼ ► from the hardware, because Apple make so much money from the hardware, should they also make
00:47:52 ◼ ► all of the money that they want from the software? When arguably the apps drive the sales there too.
00:47:58 ◼ ► I just don't think it's like one business model means that all business models should be the same.
00:48:03 ◼ ► - Well, I agree with that, but I would say back to you, who says? Who says it needs to be this way?
00:48:12 ◼ ► Like who measures this? And that's the absurdity of this argument is there's this absurd argument
00:48:17 ◼ ► that, and I'm not talking about what business models companies should do. I think companies
00:48:21 ◼ ► should be free to do whatever business model they can do in terms of competition. Competition
00:48:26 ◼ ► is the reason why there are apparently very low margins on consoles is because there is brutal
00:48:33 ◼ ► competition there. So competition should be the thing that controls this. And people will say,
00:48:39 ◼ ► well, you can define competition how you want. I would say that the competition is that Apple
00:48:43 ◼ ► is in a very competitive smartphone market. And other people would say, yes, but there's
00:48:48 ◼ ► no competition on the iOS app store. It's like, okay, you're defining the world of competition
00:48:54 ◼ ► very narrowly there. It's literally Apple's own platform. - I don't think that competition in
00:49:00 ◼ ► smartphones is even nearly as strong as competitions in consoles. - Maybe not, but my point here is
00:49:06 ◼ ► I don't see where there's any legal standing of any kind here. I just don't. I just don't see that
00:49:12 ◼ ► the margins on different parts of your business is somehow, I mean, correct me if somebody out there,
00:49:19 ◼ ► if there's a law that specifies this, but it seems like in America anyway, you don't get to tell
00:49:23 ◼ ► companies where they put their profit margin, how they make their money. It doesn't really happen
00:49:28 ◼ ► that way. And so, if I'm a company that has decided that selling razors at a huge profit and
00:49:35 ◼ ► making the blades cheap is a better business model for me, I don't think anybody's gonna step in.
00:49:40 ◼ ► Or if somebody's like, wait, wait, like let's say that Sony very carefully over time has increased
00:49:46 ◼ ► the margins on the PlayStation. Can somebody sue them and say, well, now you're making,
00:49:52 ◼ ► open your books, show us your margins. Oh, you need to reduce your cut now, because now that
00:49:57 ◼ ► you're making a little more money on your hardware, we need you to make a little less money on your
00:50:01 ◼ ► software. It doesn't make any sense to me. So I think it's a really stupid argument and that
00:50:07 ◼ ► there are much better arguments to be made here about Apple's total control over its platform
00:50:12 ◼ ► than the fact that consoles do it or don't do it and that's different. It's like, I don't think
00:50:18 ◼ ► it's different. - I actually, but see, for me, I just don't think that we should be talking about
00:50:23 ◼ ► any other platforms. The argument here is whether what Apple is doing is right. I don't think that
00:50:29 ◼ ► we should start talking about Sony or Microsoft in comparison to this. It's not the same.
00:50:34 ◼ ► - I think the reason it's relevant is because Epic is making the argument that 30% is an out-of-bounds
00:50:48 ◼ ► amount when there are lots of places that do 30%. I think the percentage is not the argument. The
00:51:09 ◼ ► should be making the argument that there is no alternative to them taking 30. They could take 50,
00:51:15 ◼ ► they could take 70, they could take 90, and we couldn't do anything but just not be on their
00:51:21 ◼ ► platform because they control the whole thing. That's the argument to make. - Yes, yeah, I agree.
00:51:31 ◼ ► because other stuff's gonna happen. I mean, I don't know how interesting any of it's gonna be.
00:51:37 ◼ ► I mean, obviously, the main thing will be coming back to how it ends. I feel pretty confident,
00:51:47 ◼ ► "Apple's gonna win this," but it's about how they win it, and it's about how Epic come out
00:51:52 ◼ ► on the other side. And, you know, as we were, I still pretty, honestly, I still feel pretty
00:51:59 ◼ ► confident about what we were talking about, even last week or the week before, about Apple basically
00:52:04 ◼ ► just, their way of getting out of this whole mess, which will just keep continuing, is just to make
00:52:09 ◼ ► some big changes to the App Store this year. - Yeah, the question is, how bloody do they feel?
00:52:14 ◼ ► How in danger do they feel? And what changes do they make? - How much do you wanna keep going
00:52:21 ◼ ► through this, right? - Right, and make no mistake, they will make changes to seem benevolent,
00:52:25 ◼ ► right? That will be, look at how they rolled out the small business program, right? It's like,
00:52:31 ◼ ► "Oh, it's Apple's largess here," but, you know, it's not. It's Apple moving with the times because
00:52:37 ◼ ► the pressure is on. - What was it Tim Cook said? That nothing's in concrete? - Nothing is cast in
00:52:43 ◼ ► concrete. We have to move with the times. You know, sometimes there's just this trend where we
00:52:48 ◼ ► have to take less money or we get regulated. It's just a trend, you know, it's a zeitgeist.
00:52:53 ◼ ► So we'll take a little less money now 'cause that's trendy to not be sued out of existence.
00:52:58 ◼ ► So we'll do that. - This episode is brought to you by Pingdom from SolarWinds. While you've been
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00:54:16 ◼ ► Winds for their support of this show and Relay FM. So we are now, Jason, four weeks from WWDC,
00:54:23 ◼ ► so we are really turning that corner now. I'm very excited. It's happening very fast. I'm so excited.
00:54:29 ◼ ► Like, I wasn't that excited for last year's WWDC for obvious reasons. Like, we didn't really know
00:54:36 ◼ ► what was going to happen. Everything was just very upsetting around that time. Things are
00:54:41 ◼ ► in some areas of the world less upsetting now, or at least we've gotten used to things.
00:54:46 ◼ ► And we didn't really know how good or not WWDC was going to be. I think we all had pretty
00:54:53 ◼ ► calm expectations, like lowered expectations of what they would actually be able to have shipped.
00:54:58 ◼ ► But it ended up being great. So I'm now really excited. I'm really looking forward to WWDC.
00:55:04 ◼ ► And so far, I think the most notable rumors have come from Mark Gurman. He published a report a
00:55:11 ◼ ► few weeks ago. Not very detailed. I'm expecting now maybe over the next couple of weeks, we'll
00:55:16 ◼ ► start seeing more. That tends to be how it usually goes, but we'll see. Yeah. Presumably the software
00:55:21 ◼ ► that's being worked on will roll out in a few more places where more people will see it. And then
00:55:25 ◼ ► those are where the leaks happen. Yeah. Cause I feel like usually, you know, within the week,
00:55:30 ◼ ► the weeks leading up, we start getting like the multi-release 9 to 5 max stuff. You know,
00:55:36 ◼ ► like it starts coming out, but this is the earliest that I've seen what I would have considered to be
00:55:41 ◼ ► from a credible source is from Mark Gurman. And there's really just a couple of things that Mark
00:55:46 ◼ ► was able to touch on. Uh, so one of the big things coming to iOS 15 and iPadOS 15 is notive,
00:55:52 ◼ ► more notification preferences. So users will be able to create profiles. So you could create like
00:55:59 ◼ ► different profiles with different characteristics and notifications, like how much noise they make,
00:56:06 ◼ ► what the prominence is, or maybe you have certain apps on and everything else off and you could
00:56:11 ◼ ► maybe set them up for driving, sleeping, working, and you'll be able to choose between them
00:56:16 ◼ ► apparently from either the lock screen or control center. So I kind of like this, right? Like I
00:56:20 ◼ ► could imagine setting up like a, uh, working, um, notifications and weekend notifications,
00:56:27 ◼ ► you know, and I get different apps allowed to notify me during different times. This is
00:56:31 ◼ ► kind of cool. I hope that this comes along with way more customization around notifications in
00:56:38 ◼ ► general. I hope that they're not just, which is what I probably aren't going to do, bolt this on
00:56:42 ◼ ► top of the existing system. I would like more. Does this excite you all, this notification
00:56:50 ◼ ► preference thing? I, uh, no, I mean, it's good. It is good. They need more of this. What gives
00:56:59 ◼ ► me pause is that the notification system is already so complicated and my, I need to see this.
00:57:06 ◼ ► I need to see this and see how they implement it and how they make this so that it's not
00:57:10 ◼ ► a slog to, cause like every, you got a lot of apps on your phone and then every app is going to,
00:57:16 ◼ ► if you have to go through every single one of them and turn them like which, which place do I
00:57:20 ◼ ► want them to be? That would be annoying. So the idea of profiles, I like the idea of profiles is
00:57:27 ◼ ► good because then what you're doing is you're saying, I want this app to behave in this way.
00:57:32 ◼ ► And presumably it's going to add that notification preference or variations on it to the different
00:57:38 ◼ ► profiles. Um, also, you know, a more global kind of like this time of day, don't do this and this
00:57:45 ◼ ► time of day. Like I want those features because notification is kind of a mess on iOS and it
00:57:51 ◼ ► frustrates me and I want it to be better. But what I don't want is like, um, some of the stuff that
00:57:59 ◼ ► I've seen over the years on Android where you, you know, that's always the great thing about
00:58:02 ◼ ► Android is like, you can set every setting. It's like, Oh my God, there's too many settings. Like
00:58:11 ◼ ► this is a way, uh, to make it easier for us to, to set these preferences and to get the notifications
00:58:18 ◼ ► we want to see. Because the other thing is we know that apps want to just notify you all the time.
00:58:24 ◼ ► Like there's no real reason for apps to stop being as obnoxious as possible. So it really is kind of
00:58:32 ◼ ► on the platform and the user, uh, to control what the, what the apps do. So more control is great.
00:58:39 ◼ ► I'm just a little worried about how fiddly this is going to end up being. I'm going to read a quote
00:58:44 ◼ ► for the iMessage section cause I frankly have no idea what this means. I think this is just one of
00:58:51 ◼ ► those things that Mark was told and he wrote about it, but I don't get it. The company is also working
00:58:56 ◼ ► on upgrades to iMessage with the eventual goal of acting as more of a social network and better
00:59:01 ◼ ► competing with Facebook's WhatsApp. Those changes are still in early development and could come
00:59:06 ◼ ► later. The people said, WhatsApp is not a social network. It's a messaging platform. So I don't
00:59:13 ◼ ► really know, understand how these things go together. Like there are lots of things that
00:59:21 ◼ ► Apple could do to iMessage to make it more like WhatsApp, like WhatsApp has way more features
00:59:27 ◼ ► and maybe it's easier to find people, especially like who are on Apple platforms. You just find
00:59:32 ◼ ► them by their phone number or whatever and you can kind of be found anywhere. But these two things
00:59:38 ◼ ► are not the same and they're very different products. I don't really understand what this
00:59:46 ◼ ► could mean honestly. Well, I will prepare to be surprised, but it's not wrong for Apple to be
00:59:53 ◼ ► investigating more things for it to do with iMessage. iMessage is a powerful tool. I want
00:59:57 ◼ ► iMessage to always, or messages to always get better cause it's probably my most used app in
01:00:03 ◼ ► general. I'm messaging people all the time. I always want it to get better. I like the replies
01:00:10 ◼ ► feature, but it's clunky. There's a bunch of stuff, Federico always has good lists cause he uses
01:00:17 ◼ ► more of these apps than me. He uses WhatsApp a lot. And I honestly, I only use messages
01:00:23 ◼ ► much to the annoyance of my friends and family here in the UK because people always tell me that
01:00:30 ◼ ► the only person that they talk to through messages is me in their lives cause everybody else uses
01:00:35 ◼ ► WhatsApp. I have family groups and stuff in messages and that would otherwise be in WhatsApp.
01:00:41 ◼ ► It frustrates people. I am in some WhatsApp groups with larger extended family, but everybody here
01:00:50 ◼ ► and in lots of places in Europe and I think in India as well, a lot as well, WhatsApp is the tool
01:00:56 ◼ ► and it's got a lot more stuff that you can do in it. And maybe Apple just wants to continue
01:01:07 ◼ ► messages for Android. I don't think that it's outside of the realm of possibility. I think
01:01:11 ◼ ► it's a card they keep in their back pocket. They are continuing to creep outside of the iPhone with
01:01:17 ◼ ► their services and make people pay a small amount of money for it. Like go wild, right? Like,
01:01:22 ◼ ► I don't know. iPad home screen is apparently going to get the most significant changes since
01:01:32 ◼ ► Well, I think we heard that they were probably working on this for last year alongside the iPhone
01:01:41 ◼ ► updates and then decided that they couldn't do both and they said, "We'll just finish this job
01:01:47 ◼ ► next year." So this is one of the least surprising things to be in the next version of iPadOS is
01:01:54 ◼ ► adding, you know, updating the home screen to be more than it is currently and allowing you to
01:01:59 ◼ ► place widgets arbitrarily on home screens and presumably add app library in some form and all
01:02:04 ◼ ► of that kind of thing. I'm curious about how they implement it because with the iPad, you really
01:02:08 ◼ ► have orientation issues that you don't have on the iPhone. There's horizontal and vertical and how
01:02:14 ◼ ► does that work and how do they move around and that's something that they have to figure out,
01:02:18 ◼ ► although there have been a bunch of like mock-ups on the internet that have said you could do it
01:02:21 ◼ ► like this and I'm sure they've worked through all of those things. It's just maybe a little more
01:02:25 ◼ ► complex than they have on the iPhone. And I'm looking forward to that because I do use widgets
01:02:30 ◼ ► on my home screen and right now I've just got my little sidebar widget thing that they can live.
01:02:35 ◼ ► - Yeah, I wish, you know, for me, like more over time, only more widgets have found their way onto
01:02:41 ◼ ► my iPhone home screen, like over the last year. Like I keep at, I'm like, "Hmm, you know what,
01:02:46 ◼ ► this might be kind of cool." And I add another one, right? Like, and I feel like I would love
01:02:55 ◼ ► the iPad screen, it's kind of better for this than the iPhone screen, honestly. Like you could have
01:03:00 ◼ ► your like status board, like that app that Panic used to make, right? Like you could just make that.
01:03:15 ◼ ► there'd be a larger size maybe for the iPad, which would be intriguing or just maybe different sizes
01:03:21 ◼ ► in general. But yeah, I'm super into this, but I am still hoping much more for iPadOS than what
01:03:28 ◼ ► Gorman is suggesting. And I'm hoping that one of the reasons that they took a year for widgets
01:03:43 ◼ ► which is the way that you look at the home screen and everything kind of works and you launch apps
01:03:48 ◼ ► and manage apps. I hope that there's been some bigger changes there because I would like to see
01:03:52 ◼ ► that. And then finally, the last part that Mark mentioned was privacy. So quote is more privacy
01:03:58 ◼ ► protections are coming too. One new feature in the works is a new menu that will show users which apps
01:04:04 ◼ ► are silently collecting data about them. I'm not surprised that Apple is going to continue down
01:04:09 ◼ ► this train. It seems like app tracking transparency has really worked the way they wanted so far.
01:04:15 ◼ ► There's been lots of reports over the last week or so that everyone is turning off tracking.
01:04:20 ◼ ► And this is what Apple wanted. And I wouldn't be surprised to see them continue going down this
01:04:26 ◼ ► route because this was a thing that could have been quite contentious for them. And there were
01:04:33 ◼ ► a lot of companies that tried to make it so, and it seems to have so far worked completely the way
01:04:38 ◼ ► that Apple wanted it to. So I wouldn't be surprised to see them continue going down this route.
01:04:42 ◼ ► - It's awfully consistent of them to do this, right? To just keep pushing on this point
01:05:02 ◼ ► that sponsor upgrade, but I could see them doing it or other network related service kind of things.
01:05:08 ◼ ► And then adopting obscure but emerging standards for privacy in various areas in the internet and
01:05:16 ◼ ► like saying, well, we're going to adopt this and use that to sort of drive the uptake of those
01:05:22 ◼ ► things. Like that all sounds like something that Apple is going to just continue trying to do,
01:05:26 ◼ ► that they're going to keep pushing forward on this because they know that it's an advantage
01:05:30 ◼ ► and they use it in their marketing, but they know that it's a product advantage and that people buy
01:05:34 ◼ ► their devices in part because of this perception that they're more secure and more private than
01:05:39 ◼ ► other devices. So I'm not surprised by that. That all said, this is a very limited number of things
01:05:45 ◼ ► to start as you pointed out at the beginning. And so I look forward there to there being more,
01:05:52 ◼ ► because this isn't a lot. So there's gotta be other stuff going on. I did see somebody reported,
01:05:57 ◼ ► was it Steve Tratton Smith? It was somebody who reported a sighting of some sort of virtualization,
01:06:09 ◼ ► and we'll draft these at some point, but I feel like virtualization, I've heard enough rumblings
01:06:15 ◼ ► about that, that there's going to be something there, but I wonder if it will not be something
01:06:19 ◼ ► as exciting as people think it'll be. Because there's definitely, there's an undercurrent of,
01:06:23 ◼ ► oh, well now that the iPad Pro has an M1, it could run like a Mac virtual machine. You could run M1
01:06:29 ◼ ► on or a Mac OS on iPad Pro and maybe, but more likely it's going to be something like, you can do
01:06:37 ◼ ► Linux, you can run Docker, you can do like it's pro for developers and stuff and not something
01:06:46 ◼ ► bigger than that, but it's all just kind of speculation at this point. So I look forward
01:06:50 ◼ ► to more leaks, although if there aren't more leaks, then our draft is going to be amazing.
01:06:54 ◼ ► The fewer leaks there are, the better the draft is because then we're just making wild choices.
01:07:04 ◼ ► going in. Right. Like for me personally, I'm cool with either, right. I either feel like I know a
01:07:10 ◼ ► lot of stuff and then wait to see if it comes true and I still always delight in the details,
01:07:16 ◼ ► or I know nothing and I look forward to the surprise. Like for me personally, they both
01:07:20 ◼ ► come with their own positives and negatives. Like, so I'm, I'm just, uh, now we're like on
01:07:25 ◼ ► that train. We're like on the road now. I started today, like moving shows around, right. To make
01:07:31 ◼ ► sure that I was as free as can be that week. Cause I made a terrible mistake last year and didn't do
01:07:36 ◼ ► that. So I'm now just recording the things I need to record. Like I'm starting to get into the mode
01:07:41 ◼ ► now. Like, all right, like we're in WWDC preparation time. I'm excited. This episode is
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01:09:58 ◼ ► Brant wants to know, is Jason still using the 12 mini? If so, what has been the biggest pro
01:10:10 ◼ ► The biggest pro is that it's small. And the biggest con is that they might not make it down the road.
01:10:20 ◼ ► And I'll be super sad because I love it. That's it. I love it. I pick up other iPhones and I think
01:10:26 ◼ ► this is ridiculous because they're all larger than the 12 mini. I love it. It's all I need in a phone.
01:10:33 ◼ ► I have nothing bad to say about it. Do you think that this could change if you're traveling?
01:10:39 ◼ ► Do you notice the battery? I always hear people say that the battery just isn't as good as you
01:10:43 ◼ ► would want it to be. You know, if I'm in one of those times where I'm out and about and not having
01:10:51 ◼ ► any opportunity to charge for a long period of time, which is really rare, then possibly. But
01:10:58 ◼ ► I don't know. That doesn't happen very often. I always think back to like XOXO back in the day,
01:11:04 ◼ ► where there'd be like a day where I would literally not be able to charge from 8 a.m. until
01:11:09 ◼ ► 1 a.m. And that's bad, right? Then you got to bring a battery pack or something like that anyway.
01:11:16 ◼ ► But most cases I'm in and out of a car or whatever. I have someplace where I have to charge. So for me,
01:11:22 ◼ ► it's not something that I've noticed or cared about. But I'll leave myself open to that
01:11:31 ◼ ► possibility, but I just like the size of it too much. It's great. All right. Next up comes from
01:11:36 ◼ ► John and John wants to know, going forward, do you think that AirTags or U1 devices could work
01:11:42 ◼ ► with home kit or shortcuts for more precise geofencing? So like when I entered a living room,
01:11:47 ◼ ► do this. So like I was thinking about this is kind of interesting to me. Like imagine if
01:11:51 ◼ ► you have your HomePod mini in one room and you've got your iPhone with you and if you walk into the
01:11:55 ◼ ► room, the lights come on. Yeah, I think the idea behind ultra wide band is that that sort of thing
01:12:02 ◼ ► should be possible. The problem is in order to do it, because ultra wide band's range is not enormous,
01:12:09 ◼ ► what you really need is a constellation of ultra wide band sensors or something. And this is the
01:12:16 ◼ ► challenge, right? This is the issue. I think in the future, that is the idea, right? Like if you've
01:12:21 ◼ ► got an Apple TV that's got an ultra wide band chip in it or a HomePod that's got an ultra wide band
01:12:27 ◼ ► chip in it or something like that, you will be able to say when I'm close to this object,
01:12:34 ◼ ► when I'm within this range of this object, or maybe even like build a map, like how the Roomba
01:12:40 ◼ ► builds a map. The Roomba goes around and it builds a little map and there's even a beta feature where
01:12:45 ◼ ► it looks for Bluetooth LE devices and it puts them on the map too. So you can sort of like map out
01:12:50 ◼ ► your house. That's the thing is you need to have the ability to build kind of a map in order to do
01:12:56 ◼ ► this kind of automation. But that would be the nice thing about it is if you're carrying your phone
01:13:00 ◼ ► and you go into a room and it knows you're in that room, so turn on the light or whatever. Yes,
01:13:05 ◼ ► that would be, I think that's the end stage of this, but it's going to take a lot because it
01:13:10 ◼ ► takes multiple devices to get to that point. You can't just like a phone with a U1 chip in it
01:13:15 ◼ ► doesn't know where it is. It knows its relationship to other objects that have ultra wide band chips
01:13:20 ◼ ► in them. And so you need to know what that object is and where it is in order to do anything. But
01:13:26 ◼ ► that said, yeah, I think this is one of the futures of home automation is going to be having your
01:13:30 ◼ ► devices know precisely where they are in your home. One of the things I'm looking forward to
01:13:35 ◼ ► is smart locks because I have a smart lock that's based on Bluetooth LE. And so it has this whole
01:13:41 ◼ ► thing that it goes through where it has to see me leave and know that I'm gone. And then it says,
01:13:48 ◼ ► okay, now Jason's gone. Next time I see that phone again, I'm going to unlock because that means he's
01:13:53 ◼ ► back. But that's the only way it can work. Whereas with ultra wide band, a smart lock would say,
01:13:59 ◼ ► oh, you're at the front door unlock, right? Like that's like with precision, I you're at the front
01:14:05 ◼ ► door unlock. And even with precision, oh, you're leaving the area of the front door now. I'll lock,
01:14:18 ◼ ► Scott Walker asks, since the release of app clips, have either of you naturally come across any of
01:14:23 ◼ ► them? I forgot about this feature because I've never seen them. I don't go outside very much.
01:14:29 ◼ ► And I think that's true for a lot of people. So no, I could have slowed the down, the kind
01:14:34 ◼ ► of adoption of them in general. I think app clips was always intended to be a long term thing. I
01:14:40 ◼ ► think when I wrote about it originally last summer, I said, this is something that'll be
01:14:44 ◼ ► a big deal in your life when you're trying to pay for parking at a meter in 2025. Like that's the
01:14:50 ◼ ► kind of approach that's happening here. So I haven't seen them, but I'm not surprised by that
01:14:55 ◼ ► because I literally, I could probably, if you gave me a piece of paper, I could probably write down
01:15:00 ◼ ► the number of places that I've been outside my house in the last year. Right? Like I could
01:15:05 ◼ ► probably write it down and it would fit on a piece of paper and it's just not a good nut. So I haven't
01:15:09 ◼ ► seen it. It just maybe has been the worst possible like such like world for it to be launched into,
01:15:15 ◼ ► you know? Right. I mean, the idea, some of the demo stuff is really great, right? The idea that
01:15:20 ◼ ► you could order from a table at a restaurant by tapping on an app clip and then it knows what
01:15:26 ◼ ► table you're at and it loads the app clip and you can place your order and then it'll get delivered
01:15:30 ◼ ► to you. Like I think that sort of stuff is going to happen, but you know, restaurants have been
01:15:35 ◼ ► broken by the pandemic and you know, like all of this stuff and updating like parking meters is a
01:15:41 ◼ ► great example, but that is going to require infrastructure updates and those happen over
01:15:46 ◼ ► the course of years. So I don't think we can judge app clips as a success or a failure based on not
01:15:52 ◼ ► seeing them around because I think this is a long-term thing. Like this is Apple saying,
01:15:58 ◼ ► if you want to build parking meters with a tap to pay, we have a function to let you do that now
01:16:06 ◼ ► or a tap to log in or whatever it is. We let you do that now, but it's going to take time for those
01:16:12 ◼ ► things to get adopted. And Jamie asks, now that we've seen a new consumer iMac, have reports of
01:16:21 ◼ ► the death of the iMac Pro being greatly exaggerated? This is a weird question because a new consumer
01:16:28 ◼ ► iMac, and it is in quotes, but like the iMac has always been a consumer product. I think what Jamie
01:16:35 ◼ ► is saying, and I didn't do a good job of reading that question, I should have put a better emphasis
01:16:39 ◼ ► on it, is basically saying like, it seems like we have the iMac and then there's going to be the iMac
01:16:44 ◼ ► Pro, which is the bigger one, right? Like it's kind of the way that it would seem to be telling
01:16:48 ◼ ► the story of itself. I mean, that's a scenario, but every, like literally every iMac has been
01:16:54 ◼ ► a consumer iMac, except for any iMac Pro is the one outlier. And we still have the 27-inch iMac
01:17:00 ◼ ► being sold with Intel. That is a consumer in quotes iMac. So I see no evidence to say that
01:17:09 ◼ ► this is the consumer iMac and the larger one will be a Pro iMac. It doesn't mean it couldn't happen.
01:17:14 ◼ ► It means I see no evidence for it. The fact that they introduced a smaller iMac and that there's
01:17:20 ◼ ► also this larger iMac is not evidence of anything because those are the two iMacs that were there.
01:17:24 ◼ ► There's totally a scenario where they could call the larger one iMac Pro. It goes back to what you
01:17:29 ◼ ► were saying earlier, Myke, the idea that you've got product and product Pro throughout Apple's
01:17:32 ◼ ► lineup. They could totally do that and say, well, Pro iMac is the big iMac and the 24 is already
01:17:37 ◼ ► pretty big. So really what we're saying is that this new 27 or 30 or whatever iMac is more of a
01:17:43 ◼ ► Pro model and they could do that. Or they could say, let's not call it Pro because some people
01:17:49 ◼ ► will buy it and they would be turned off if it was Pro. Or let's do two versions of it. We'll do
01:17:54 ◼ ► a regular version and then we'll do a Pro version that's got extra features. They have lots of
01:17:58 ◼ ► choices. Who knows what choices they've made? We'll know when they announce it. But iMac Pro,
01:18:03 ◼ ► as currently defined, is defined by the fact that it used a totally different cooling system
01:18:08 ◼ ► because it was using Intel Xeon processors. The existence of the Xeons is why the Intel iMac Pro
01:18:14 ◼ ► existed. And those processors are gone. So that premise for the iMac Pro is gone. The name remains
01:18:20 ◼ ► available, right? So the question is all marketing. It's marketing. Does Apple want to make that larger
01:18:26 ◼ ► iMac marketed as a Pro model or not? I don't think it really changes what it is other than it might
01:18:33 ◼ ► give them some freedom to raise the price and pour a few more high-end features into it. But I think
01:18:38 ◼ ► they would do that anyway. So it's a coin flip to me because it really is just in the hands of the
01:18:44 ◼ ► marketers, what they want to call that product. Yeah, for me, I think at the company that is from
01:18:51 ◼ ► very similar, but slightly different perspective of like, you know, we were saying that the iMac Pro
01:18:55 ◼ ► was one and done, right? Like they released it and they never updated it and then it went away.
01:19:01 ◼ ► And that that's the end of the iMac Pro. We're not saying it's the end of the name is the end of what
01:19:07 ◼ ► that product was supposed to be. Like that product was supposed to be the only Pro Mac. Like the top
01:19:14 ◼ ► of the line Mac was supposed to be the iMac Pro. Right. There was no Mac Pro in that scenario when
01:19:19 ◼ ► it was designed. And it was designed for an Intel era that has also passed. So it's doubly
01:19:24 ◼ ► out of date. But if they release an iMac called the iMac Pro, which I do think they will,
01:19:31 ◼ ► it's not going to be like the iMac Pro that it quote unquote replaces. It replaces the largest
01:19:38 ◼ ► iMac, right? But it's not going to be fulfilling the same place in the lineup that the iMac Pro was
01:19:46 ◼ ► supposed to. Honestly, the only way that an iMac Pro, a new iMac Pro would fill that same ecological
01:19:52 ◼ ► niche is if they announced we're doing a new iMac. And also there's this iMac Pro variant that's got
01:19:59 ◼ ► a different color scheme and it's got a more powerful processor and it's got more RAM. They
01:20:03 ◼ ► would need to like do a loaded version that's very different. And even then it would be a stretch
01:20:08 ◼ ► because it's basically going to be the same as the other. So yeah, that's why I've been saying that
01:20:12 ◼ ► it's a marketing decision because that's essentially all it is. How do you define your bigger
01:20:16 ◼ ► iMac? Do you call it Pro or do you not? You can choose, but it's not going to be the same
01:20:21 ◼ ► differentiator as the iMac Pro original was. If you'd like to send in a question for us to answer
01:20:28 ◼ ► on the show, just send out a tweet with the hashtag #askupgrade or use question mark #askupgrade in the
01:20:32 ◼ ► Relay FM members Discord, which you get access to if you're a member and you sign up for Upgrade Plus.
01:20:37 ◼ ► Go to getupgradeplus.com and you can sign up and you will get longer ad-free episodes of every
01:20:43 ◼ ► single upgrade every week. Even if we do two in a week, which we do sometimes, you'll get longer
01:20:48 ◼ ► ad-free versions of those ones too. That's at getupgradeplus.com. I would like to thank Express
01:20:54 ◼ ► VPN, Pingdom, and Ooni Pizza Ovens for their support of this episode. If you want to find
01:20:59 ◼ ► Jason online, you can go to sixcolors.com. You can also go to Twitter. Jason is @jasnell. I'm @imike.
01:21:08 ◼ ► I-M-Y-K-E. And we both host shows here at Relay FM. Jason also hosts many shows at The Incomparable.
01:21:15 ◼ ► Jason, would you be able to tell me a little bit about another Relay FM show called Rocket?
01:21:20 ◼ ► Jason: Sure. Rocket is not a podcast about space and related subjects. That's liftoff. No, Rocket
01:21:26 ◼ ► covers all the hard tech news of the week in a fun, some would say wacky way from the latest
01:21:31 ◼ ► Apple news to scams with fake blood testing companies, stuff like that. Rocket is there
01:21:38 ◼ ► and you could be there too. Ride the Rocket. That's what I've decided their slogan is now.
01:21:42 ◼ ► Really.fm/rocket or search for rocket wherever you get your podcasts. It's not about space,