Upgrade

00:00:00 ◼   ► [BEEP]

00:00:00 ◼   ► [MUSIC]

00:00:08 ◼   ► From Real AFM, this is Upgrade Episode 381.

00:00:13 ◼   ► Today's show is brought to you by Bombus, Capital One, and Setapp.

00:00:17 ◼   ► My name is Myke Hurley, and I'm joined by Jason Snow.

00:00:20 ◼   ► Hi, Jason.

00:00:21 ◼   ► Hi, Myke.

00:00:22 ◼   ► Good morning/evening.

00:00:25 ◼   ► I have a question for you.

00:00:27 ◼   ► It's a Snow Talk question, of course, and it comes from Ryan.

00:00:29 ◼   ► And it's continuing, I think, the trend of the last two to three weeks worth of Snow

00:00:33 ◼   ► Talk questions.

00:00:34 ◼   ► Oh, boy.

00:00:35 ◼   ► Ryan wants to know what book or books are you reading right now?

00:00:41 ◼   ► What books?

00:00:42 ◼   ► Plural is an interesting one, right?

00:00:45 ◼   ► Some people have like multiple books going at once?

00:00:49 ◼   ► I don't generally do that.

00:00:52 ◼   ► I just finished.

00:00:53 ◼   ► I've been on quite a little tear in November.

00:00:56 ◼   ► I've read a bunch of books, so.

00:00:58 ◼   ► Can I read them all?

00:00:59 ◼   ► No.

00:01:00 ◼   ► I am reading the Steers Woman series by Rosemary Kerstein, which is a fantasy question mark,

00:01:10 ◼   ► science fiction question mark series, originally published in the, I think, starting in the

00:01:15 ◼   ► late '80s.

00:01:18 ◼   ► I've been reading those and enjoying them.

00:01:22 ◼   ► I read A Deadly Education by Naomi Novik, which is the first book in a series, and I

00:01:26 ◼   ► really enjoyed that.

00:01:28 ◼   ► I read A Darker Shade of Magic, which is the first in a series, and I enjoyed that.

00:01:34 ◼   ► And last month, I read City of Stairs and City of Blades by Robert Jackson Bennett,

00:01:40 ◼   ► which are part of a trilogy.

00:01:42 ◼   ► Got the third one ready to go, and I really enjoyed that.

00:01:46 ◼   ► So those are some books that I've enjoyed lately.

00:01:47 ◼   ► And I'm basically at the point where I'm cycling through those series.

00:01:51 ◼   ► So I'm going to read the next book in this series and the next book in that series and

00:01:55 ◼   ► do that for a little while, I think.

00:01:57 ◼   ► Okay.

00:01:58 ◼   ► Because I was just going to ask, why would you not go from book to book to book in a

00:02:01 ◼   ► series?

00:02:02 ◼   ► I like giving it some space, honestly.

00:02:04 ◼   ► I generally like giving it some space rather than binging a whole series.

00:02:07 ◼   ► If I've got a bunch of different series that I'm reading, that is the level at which I

00:02:11 ◼   ► want to...

00:02:12 ◼   ► I don't want to have a bunch of books that I'm reading at once, but I do kind of like

00:02:16 ◼   ► that idea that I found this first book and I really liked it and it's a trilogy.

00:02:20 ◼   ► It's like, well, I'm going to read the next two, but I can also be patient and I've got

00:02:25 ◼   ► some other books going on and it stretches out that experience a little bit.

00:02:30 ◼   ► So it isn't quite as intense.

00:02:32 ◼   ► And I kind of like that.

00:02:34 ◼   ► Sometimes you can't help it.

00:02:35 ◼   ► You're just like, I'm just going to go to the next book in the series.

00:02:37 ◼   ► But sometimes you can put it off a little bit and know that that next book is out there.

00:02:41 ◼   ► In the case of one of these books, I also put it on my queue at the library using the

00:02:47 ◼   ► Libby app for an ebook checkout from my local library.

00:02:50 ◼   ► It was available, the next book in one of these series.

00:02:53 ◼   ► And it said, we'll get that to you in 17 weeks.

00:02:55 ◼   ► Which may not be entirely accurate, but what I like about that is that one, it'll just

00:03:01 ◼   ► come to me for free.

00:03:02 ◼   ► And also I'll just get that push notification that says, hey, that book.

00:03:04 ◼   ► I'll be like, oh yeah, I liked the first book in that series.

00:03:06 ◼   ► And then I'll read the second book.

00:03:08 ◼   ► And that's a good way to do it too.

00:03:11 ◼   ► So that's it.

00:03:13 ◼   ► So what am I going to read?

00:03:14 ◼   ► I finished a book yesterday.

00:03:17 ◼   ► So what am I going to read next?

00:03:18 ◼   ► I don't know.

00:03:19 ◼   ► I honestly don't know.

00:03:20 ◼   ► Unclear, Ryan.

00:03:21 ◼   ► >> If you would like to send in a question for us to answer on the show, you can send

00:03:26 ◼   ► out a tweet with the hashtags.

00:03:27 ◼   ► No talking, your question marks, no talking to Relay FM members.

00:03:30 ◼   ► Discord, like Ryan did.

00:03:32 ◼   ► Thank you, Ryan.

00:03:34 ◼   ► iOS 15.2 is currently in beta.

00:03:37 ◼   ► I think we're up to beta two or three, 15.2 now.

00:03:41 ◼   ► And there are a couple of things going on here that I wanted to talk about.

00:03:45 ◼   ► One of them is communication safety has returned.

00:03:49 ◼   ► This was one of the two features that Apple added.

00:03:53 ◼   ► >> Lesser known of the features.

00:03:57 ◼   ► >> This was added alongside the CSAM scanning, so the child sexual abuse material scanning.

00:04:04 ◼   ► I know what you're saying about that.

00:04:06 ◼   ► I was thinking as we approach the end of the year, you know, like we have the upgrade is

00:04:09 ◼   ► more information soon and connected we do like the year review thing.

00:04:13 ◼   ► And this is just going to be one whole month, right?

00:04:15 ◼   ► Like the month of whatever it was, I don't remember.

00:04:18 ◼   ► That was when Apple made us all talk about child sexual abuse material for three weeks.

00:04:23 ◼   ► But now they have brought back -- >> It's when we learned the term CSAM.

00:04:27 ◼   ► >> CSAM.

00:04:28 ◼   ► >> Yay!

00:04:29 ◼   ► >> Thank you.

00:04:31 ◼   ► So the -- they're bringing the one part of it back.

00:04:34 ◼   ► This is the system that looks for nudity in messages to children, warning them of what

00:04:41 ◼   ► it could include.

00:04:42 ◼   ► And they've made some tweaks to the system now.

00:04:45 ◼   ► So a child of any age will now have the option to message someone that they trust for help

00:04:52 ◼   ► if they receive this imagery before viewing it rather than it automatically just alerting

00:04:57 ◼   ► parents.

00:04:58 ◼   ► So you get the option to send a message to someone before doing anything else with it,

00:05:03 ◼   ► which is really good because the concern is who sent that message in the first place and

00:05:08 ◼   ► can they be trusted or can you trust your automatic people in your family as the child.

00:05:14 ◼   ► So I think that's a good addition.

00:05:15 ◼   ► >> Right.

00:05:16 ◼   ► It's clearly Apple having received some feedback about this, the less controversial of the

00:05:25 ◼   ► two or three, I guess, sets of new features and making some adjustments based on the feedback,

00:05:31 ◼   ► which, again, easier on this score than some of the other criticisms that they received.

00:05:36 ◼   ► But it's interesting to see that they, one, are still committed to doing this and two,

00:05:40 ◼   ► have made some adaptations based on the feedback.

00:05:42 ◼   ► >> Yeah, like I saw a bunch of headlines that were along the lines of -- I just Googled

00:05:47 ◼   ► -- I just started in Google News now, like, "Apple debate a test iMessage feature that

00:05:51 ◼   ► warns kids about nude imagery."

00:05:53 ◼   ► "Latest iOS beta blurs nude images for children."

00:05:56 ◼   ► Like, this is the type of headline that should have occurred in the first instance because

00:06:00 ◼   ► they should have released these two things separately.

00:06:03 ◼   ► The problem was, we talk about it at the time, but now it's like I see that and I'm like,

00:06:08 ◼   ► "Oh, yeah, great."

00:06:09 ◼   ► You know, like it's an easier thing to just accept rather than the whole, like, "Oh, and

00:06:14 ◼   ► also Apple's going to scan every single image on your phone."

00:06:17 ◼   ► Right?

00:06:18 ◼   ► Like, it just messed -- it muddied the waters way too much.

00:06:20 ◼   ► They couldn't get the message out properly and I think that they're now doing the right

00:06:23 ◼   ► thing by bringing this part back.

00:06:26 ◼   ► I think it would -- and I'm happy with the tweaks that they are making to this system

00:06:31 ◼   ► to make it more kind of thought through for everybody in the process, including the child

00:06:35 ◼   ► who I would argue is the person who should be considered most and what they need in this

00:06:40 ◼   ► situation.

00:06:41 ◼   ► So I think this is cool and I'm pleased that they're -- I'm pleased that they're bringing

00:06:45 ◼   ► this part back first.

00:06:47 ◼   ► I think it was the best part of everything with the least issues and could -- and would

00:06:51 ◼   ► really, I think, help some people out.

00:06:53 ◼   ► So I'm pleased it's finding its way back into iOS.

00:06:56 ◼   ► And you can look at -- I mean, you can listen back to our podcast where we talked about

00:07:01 ◼   ► why this was such a PR disaster and why it was their own fault for conflating all this

00:07:06 ◼   ► stuff together.

00:07:07 ◼   ► In the intervening months, the best I've come up with is that Apple's tendency to group

00:07:12 ◼   ► things together in order to tell a story, in order to form a narrative, which is a thing

00:07:17 ◼   ► that they do a lot that works for them a lot.

00:07:21 ◼   ► The short version is, I think that's what got them here, is that they decided that this

00:07:25 ◼   ► could all be wrapped together in a very simple narrative of keeping kids safe.

00:07:30 ◼   ► And it turned out to be way more complicated than that.

00:07:33 ◼   ► And they weren't able to sort of just slide it by with their narrative.

00:07:37 ◼   ► The power of their narrative building wasn't able to do the job.

00:07:40 ◼   ► So here they are.

00:07:41 ◼   ► I think I'm encouraged by the fact that they rolled this out in a beta without the other

00:07:45 ◼   ► features being involved.

00:07:47 ◼   ► Like yes, that's probably the best thing to do.

00:07:49 ◼   ► And there's an update to Find My that allows you to "scan for items that can track me."

00:07:59 ◼   ► So this is if you were concerned or if somebody has a concern about having an air tag placed

00:08:04 ◼   ► on them, that the Find My app can now, you can ask it to actively look for these types

00:08:10 ◼   ► of devices that could be hidden on your person, which is a good feature.

00:08:14 ◼   ► And then they've added this functionality to another part of the app as well, that you

00:08:20 ◼   ► can use this to scan for something if you're looking for something.

00:08:26 ◼   ► Say for example, I went to Jason's house and I had an item with an air tag on it, like

00:08:31 ◼   ► a bag.

00:08:32 ◼   ► I'm like, "Jason, I think I left my bag in your home."

00:08:34 ◼   ► And he can't see it.

00:08:35 ◼   ► But I was like, "I have an air tag on it."

00:08:36 ◼   ► Jason can say, "Help me find something."

00:08:39 ◼   ► And then the phone starts actively searching for an air tag in that vicinity.

00:08:43 ◼   ► So I like that they've added this functionality and it does two different things.

00:08:47 ◼   ► And I think that that's really cool.

00:08:48 ◼   ► So these are two things that are coming to the Find My app.

00:08:51 ◼   ► I think they developed this little part of the app to deal with concerns around privacy,

00:08:56 ◼   ► but then they're also turning it into a general user feature as well.

00:08:59 ◼   ► So I think that's a good part of it to have, of like you contact someone and say, "I lost

00:09:04 ◼   ► this here."

00:09:05 ◼   ► And then they can go into Find My and put the app into finding mode, like an active

00:09:10 ◼   ► finding mode.

00:09:11 ◼   ► So it has to be a lost device.

00:09:13 ◼   ► It's a device that like an air tag that you said, "This is lost."

00:09:15 ◼   ► You can go in and do that.

00:09:16 ◼   ► Like I've lost this.

00:09:18 ◼   ► And then the Find My app will look for those tagged devices as such.

00:09:22 ◼   ► I have noticed since I've been using this MacBook Pro, the new MacBook Pro, and I don't

00:09:29 ◼   ► think this is entirely new, but I think I maybe have it turned off for other devices.

00:09:34 ◼   ► But one of the things that's amused me about it is that it's basically acting like an air

00:09:37 ◼   ► tag.

00:09:39 ◼   ► When I leave it, I get an emergency note on my phone that says, "You've left your laptop

00:09:44 ◼   ► behind," which is actually very helpful.

00:09:47 ◼   ► But in the context of me leaving it at home, when I go away from my home is a little bit

00:09:52 ◼   ► kind of humorously needy of the MacBook Pro.

00:09:55 ◼   ► It's like, "No, I'm with you."

00:09:56 ◼   ► - So you can go into the Find My app and into the device and you can add ring fence locations

00:10:01 ◼   ► that it won't alert you about.

00:10:04 ◼   ► But I do like that feature in general.

00:10:06 ◼   ► - It's a great feature.

00:10:07 ◼   ► And it's just not one that I had experienced firsthand until I set up this MacBook Pro

00:10:11 ◼   ► and now I'm seeing it.

00:10:12 ◼   ► And it is, it's using the same infrastructure as Find My, it's using the same app, it's

00:10:16 ◼   ► using the same notification settings as Find My.

00:10:19 ◼   ► And it is a good feature to be able to warn you that you left your laptop behind, right?

00:10:24 ◼   ► Like that is, in general, you don't wanna do that.

00:10:27 ◼   ► - Well we're talking about things we've spoken about previously.

00:10:31 ◼   ► Sometimes it's not a follow-up.

00:10:32 ◼   ► - It's the appendix section.

00:10:33 ◼   ► Well, I mean, that is follow-up, right?

00:10:35 ◼   ► It is literally the definition of what we're doing now.

00:10:37 ◼   ► Okay.

00:10:38 ◼   ► - Play date has been delayed, unfortunately.

00:10:41 ◼   ► - Not too surprisingly delayed.

00:10:45 ◼   ► There comes a moment in every product's life when it's announced to ship by the end of

00:10:49 ◼   ► a year and it is mid-November and there has been no communication about that product status

00:10:54 ◼   ► when you start to think, "I suspect."

00:10:58 ◼   ► It's years now of doing a podcast about space that has taught me to look for all the signs

00:11:02 ◼   ► of delays because space stuff is all about delays.

00:11:08 ◼   ► Everybody in space says, "We're gonna do it in 2014."

00:11:12 ◼   ► And then in 2020, they're like, "Look at us, we did it."

00:11:14 ◼   ► And you're like, "Uh, it's a little late, but good job."

00:11:18 ◼   ► So this is a little like that where Playdate, they were quiet about it.

00:11:22 ◼   ► And it turns out that, yeah, the first batches that were supposed to ship by the end of the

00:11:25 ◼   ► year will be early next year instead.

00:11:28 ◼   ► And then the rest of their stuff has also been pushed back.

00:11:32 ◼   ► That not a shock, it's sort of sad.

00:11:36 ◼   ► I found pictures of people playing with the Playdate test hardware at WWDC in 2019 the

00:11:46 ◼   ► other day.

00:11:47 ◼   ► And I thought, "Oh, wow, Playdate."

00:11:49 ◼   ► And then now here it is delayed even further.

00:11:52 ◼   ► It's a tough story because they had them in their warehouse in California ready to ship

00:11:59 ◼   ► and they did tests on them and found out that the batteries on lots of them were super defective,

00:12:05 ◼   ► basically.

00:12:06 ◼   ► Which they, panic doesn't say anything about this, but I get a real sense that what happens

00:12:16 ◼   ► a lot in industries is the best customers get the first crack at the hardware and the

00:12:23 ◼   ► little customers don't.

00:12:27 ◼   ► And that you might have, let's say battery that you're relying on and you're panic making

00:12:33 ◼   ► Playdates and so you get a sample and you're like, "This battery is great."

00:12:37 ◼   ► And then it turns out that they make a million of them at the factory, but the first 800,000

00:12:41 ◼   ► go to their best client and you're at the end of the line.

00:12:45 ◼   ► Well, guess what?

00:12:46 ◼   ► You may get the ones that are rejected by the client.

00:12:48 ◼   ► You may get the ones that are not as good.

00:12:50 ◼   ► And I'm not saying that that happened here, but it feels kind of like something like that

00:12:53 ◼   ► happened here where they were sold a good battery and what they got were bad batteries

00:12:57 ◼   ► so they had to get a new battery supplier.

00:12:59 ◼   ► They had to send to the Playdates that were in the US back to Malaysia to be disassembled

00:13:04 ◼   ► and reassembled with a new battery in it.

00:13:07 ◼   ► So that's bad.

00:13:08 ◼   ► And then to make matters worse, the processor that they chose and keep in mind, they chose

00:13:13 ◼   ► this processor what, four years ago, five years ago, a long time ago, they chose the

00:13:17 ◼   ► processor that runs in this thing and they designed the circuit port around it.

00:13:20 ◼   ► And this is their first hardware product.

00:13:24 ◼   ► I said this to Dan Morin last week on the Six Colors podcast.

00:13:26 ◼   ► This is why it's called hardware, Myke.

00:13:28 ◼   ► Otherwise it'd be called easy wear.

00:13:31 ◼   ► Yeah, but it's hard hardware.

00:13:33 ◼   ► So it's hard.

00:13:34 ◼   ► Anyway, the processor, they're like, great, we need to ship more Playdates in 2022.

00:13:40 ◼   ► Can we have more processors?

00:13:42 ◼   ► And the processor supplier said, yes, you can have them in 2024.

00:13:47 ◼   ► And it was like, wait, what now?

00:13:49 ◼   ► So it turns out there's a different ARM processor that is basically identical, but it's slightly

00:13:54 ◼   ► different that they can get faster and they can get it for next year so they can ship

00:13:58 ◼   ► Playdates next year.

00:13:59 ◼   ► But it requires them to do a revision to their motherboard of the Playdate in order to use

00:14:03 ◼   ► the different chip, which means that yes, after the first couple batches of Playdates,

00:14:08 ◼   ► it sounds like the ones that come thereafter will be using a modified motherboard, a different

00:14:13 ◼   ► motherboard.

00:14:14 ◼   ► It's like another revision because they have to change what processor they're using.

00:14:17 ◼   ► All the software will be the same and it'll all look the same, but behind the scenes,

00:14:21 ◼   ► they basically had to change their design because of chip availability, which means,

00:14:26 ◼   ► Myke, that it's the legacy nodes.

00:14:29 ◼   ► So legacy node.

00:14:30 ◼   ► It's the fault of the legacy nodes.

00:14:31 ◼   ► This is what it is like to make things in 2021.

00:14:35 ◼   ► This is just what it is like.

00:14:36 ◼   ► Like if you make products, this is what it's like.

00:14:40 ◼   ► You are scrambling.

00:14:41 ◼   ► Tough time to do your first hardware product, right?

00:14:43 ◼   ► It's like, oh no, the supply chain in Asia, it'll be fine.

00:14:48 ◼   ► It's like, no, it turns out it's worse than fine.

00:14:55 ◼   ► It's much worse than fine.

00:14:57 ◼   ► So I feel bad for them.

00:14:59 ◼   ► I feel bad for all the people who want a Playdate and wanted it by the end of the year.

00:15:03 ◼   ► It's not going to happen.

00:15:05 ◼   ► It sounds like they've got it all together, but again, who knows?

00:15:09 ◼   ► Who knows what will come next?

00:15:11 ◼   ► This episode of Upgrade is brought to you in part by Setapp.

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00:17:11 ◼   ► Our thanks to Setapp for their support of this show and Relay FM.

00:17:15 ◼   ► So we knew this was going to come back and the story has come back and we're going to

00:17:19 ◼   ► talk a little bit more about Apple, Epic and external linking.

00:17:25 ◼   ► So this was the thing that came out.

00:17:27 ◼   ► Linking, linking, linking.

00:17:30 ◼   ► We love talking about linking on this show.

00:17:32 ◼   ► So we do.

00:17:34 ◼   ► Judge Yvonne Gonzalez Rogers rejected Apple's appeal to delay her ruling that they must

00:17:42 ◼   ► allow for external payment options for apps on iOS.

00:17:45 ◼   ► So the ruling that Judge Gonzalez Rogers stated was that there must be additional options

00:17:51 ◼   ► for apps to be able to provide links to external payment options inside of their applications

00:17:56 ◼   ► by December 9th.

00:17:57 ◼   ► Obviously this is not something Apple allows at the moment.

00:18:00 ◼   ► Apple asked for what's known as a stay on this ruling so that they could appeal it further

00:18:05 ◼   ► and also have more time to make necessary changes.

00:18:08 ◼   ► They wanted a delay on it basically.

00:18:10 ◼   ► This is a quote from Apple attorney Mark Perry.

00:18:13 ◼   ► This will be the first time Apple has ever allowed live links in an app for digital content.

00:18:18 ◼   ► It's going to take months to figure out the engineering, economic, business and other

00:18:22 ◼   ► issues.

00:18:23 ◼   ► There's still no clear guidelines really about what will or will not be accepted by the court.

00:18:30 ◼   ► So can you put one link in your app?

00:18:32 ◼   ► Can you put more than one link?

00:18:34 ◼   ► Can you, can anybody define what a metadata button is?

00:18:39 ◼   ► That's what it just continues to say.

00:18:40 ◼   ► I want to, we'll talk about this in a second, but I just want to read this quote from Judge

00:18:43 ◼   ► Gonzalez Rogers as well.

00:18:45 ◼   ► So this was her decision to Apple.

00:18:48 ◼   ► The court is not convinced, but nor is it here to micromanage.

00:18:52 ◼   ► Consumers are quite used to linking from an app to a web browser.

00:18:56 ◼   ► Other than perhaps needing time to establish guidelines, Apple has provided no credible

00:19:00 ◼   ► reason for the court to believe that the injunction would cause the professed devastation.

00:19:05 ◼   ► Links can be tested by app review.

00:19:07 ◼   ► Users can open browsers and retype links to the same effect.

00:19:10 ◼   ► It is merely inconvenient, which then only works to the advantage of Apple.

00:19:15 ◼   ► I really like this.

00:19:17 ◼   ► I think that's fantastic because I agree.

00:19:22 ◼   ► You know, I understand if Apple's trying to build like a whole system here, which they

00:19:27 ◼   ► may be right.

00:19:28 ◼   ► Like that thing that Google was doing that we spoke about last week.

00:19:32 ◼   ► But the judge isn't asking for that.

00:19:34 ◼   ► The judge is saying, at least in the interim, basically from December 9th, allow people

00:19:41 ◼   ► to tap a link to go to a web browser to pay for a subscription or whatever.

00:19:46 ◼   ► Well, it's very much Apple saying, okay, if we're going to do this, we need to over engineer

00:19:53 ◼   ► all of this.

00:19:54 ◼   ► We need to change all our guidelines and we need to build a system that scans for links

00:19:57 ◼   ► and we need to figure out what the rules need to be around what happens at the other end

00:20:03 ◼   ► of those links.

00:20:04 ◼   ► And like they're, so what they're saying is we're really going to do this up.

00:20:09 ◼   ► We're not going to just let people do links.

00:20:11 ◼   ► We're going to, it needs to be much more complicated.

00:20:14 ◼   ► I think that's their argument, right?

00:20:15 ◼   ► It needs to be much more complicated and it'll take time.

00:20:19 ◼   ► And the judge is basically saying, it doesn't need to be more complicated.

00:20:21 ◼   ► I told you to do this, so you need to do it.

00:20:24 ◼   ► And that is interesting, right?

00:20:28 ◼   ► Because I have no doubt, and I think we've talked about this before, the idea that Apple

00:20:35 ◼   ► might want to have a more holistic system for whatever changes are made.

00:20:40 ◼   ► They want to change it in app review and maybe there's an API and like whatever it is, like

00:20:45 ◼   ► I get it, but I also get the judge saying, no, I told you to just let them put links

00:20:50 ◼   ► in.

00:20:51 ◼   ► This is the, this is the bare minimum.

00:20:53 ◼   ► And if you want to build support around it, you can, but the bare minimum is just let

00:20:58 ◼   ► them put a link in their app to go to their website.

00:21:02 ◼   ► That is what I ordered you to do.

00:21:04 ◼   ► And yes, the argument is also that it's very self-serving for Apple to say, this will take

00:21:10 ◼   ► a while because they're stalling because they're appealing and they don't want to do it.

00:21:14 ◼   ► And so by saying, please give me a stay, they're basically playing for time so that they can

00:21:20 ◼   ► hopefully avoid doing it altogether.

00:21:23 ◼   ► So that's the game that they're playing.

00:21:24 ◼   ► And I do admire her saying, you're making this more complicated than it has to be.

00:21:29 ◼   ► I told you to put a link.

00:21:31 ◼   ► So do it.

00:21:32 ◼   ► - I kind of also like this, I get this sense of, I'm not an idiot.

00:21:36 ◼   ► I know what you're trying to do here.

00:21:38 ◼   ► Like, I know that you're just saying all of this so you don't have to do the thing you

00:21:42 ◼   ► don't want to do.

00:21:43 ◼   ► - And she says, yeah, you may need to revise your rules, right?

00:21:47 ◼   ► To say like, well, here's what we'll allow and we're not, but Apple seems to be saying

00:21:51 ◼   ► like, we're going to take, it's going to take us months.

00:21:53 ◼   ► Oh, it's so hard.

00:21:54 ◼   ► We haven't understood the economic devastation that could occur.

00:21:58 ◼   ► - Yeah.

00:21:59 ◼   ► And she's saying, it looks fairly simple to me and I'm not buying your line of argument

00:22:05 ◼   ► that this is going to take months of intense study to figure out how to do this.

00:22:09 ◼   ► And also I think you could interpret it as being, it will take us months to figure out

00:22:14 ◼   ► how to undercut your order as much as possible so that while we follow the letter of the

00:22:20 ◼   ► law, the letter of your ruling, we avoid all the consequences of it.

00:22:25 ◼   ► And she's saying, no, just put the links in please.

00:22:28 ◼   ► That's what I told you to do.

00:22:31 ◼   ► So do it.

00:22:33 ◼   ► The truth is that Apple is still playing for time and they are appealing.

00:22:41 ◼   ► And it feels to me entirely likely that they will take this to the Ninth Circuit Court

00:22:46 ◼   ► of Appeals.

00:22:47 ◼   ► - I think they basically said they would, Jason.

00:22:49 ◼   ► - Yes, and that the Ninth Circuit will then issue a preliminary stay so Apple doesn't

00:22:54 ◼   ► have to do anything while they consider the case.

00:22:57 ◼   ► And Apple's plea will be, this changes our whole business model for something that we're

00:23:01 ◼   ► appealing.

00:23:02 ◼   ► So don't make us do this thing while the appeal is going on because it will threaten us and

00:23:11 ◼   ► cause harm to us for something that you may think we don't actually have to do.

00:23:16 ◼   ► So don't make us do it.

00:23:17 ◼   ► - My argument, if I was this judge here, is you've already said you're going to for the

00:23:22 ◼   ► Japanese Fair Trade Commission, but you haven't announced any more information about what

00:23:28 ◼   ► that's going to look like.

00:23:29 ◼   ► So they are already preparing for this, but they're not saying what they're doing.

00:23:34 ◼   ► So it is going back to the idea of like, you're only not doing it now when you've been told

00:23:39 ◼   ► to because it is the most convenient option for you.

00:23:43 ◼   ► They must have already worked out before they made the deal with the JTFC what the impact

00:23:48 ◼   ► of this would be on their business.

00:23:51 ◼   ► - But I do think it's the most likely scenario is the Ninth Circuit just stays the order

00:23:55 ◼   ► and says, we'll work this out next year and don't worry about it in the meantime.

00:24:00 ◼   ► But if you're Apple, you have to have the contingency in place to say, "Hey, we've changed

00:24:07 ◼   ► the rules.

00:24:08 ◼   ► Good news, everybody."

00:24:10 ◼   ► You can put a link in.

00:24:11 ◼   ► - We took it upon ourselves.

00:24:12 ◼   ► - Yeah.

00:24:14 ◼   ► So you got to be able to be...

00:24:17 ◼   ► The judges told you, you need to do this.

00:24:19 ◼   ► So you need to be prepared to do it while hoping that another judge or panel of judges

00:24:24 ◼   ► will say, "Hold off for now."

00:24:27 ◼   ► They're planning for time.

00:24:28 ◼   ► I think that's...

00:24:29 ◼   ► I wouldn't put any money on this going into effect.

00:24:32 ◼   ► I think it's more likely because I am skeptical of Apple's arguments here, but if you're a

00:24:42 ◼   ► judge in the Ninth Circuit and you look at this and you say, "Well, this potentially

00:24:45 ◼   ► could change their whole business model either in whole or in part."

00:24:50 ◼   ► And we're asking them to change it in advance of our ruling if we decide that this is worth

00:24:54 ◼   ► considering an appeal on, then let's not make them...

00:25:00 ◼   ► Don't make them do the thing that they say is gonna be a big deal if we're not sure that

00:25:05 ◼   ► they, in the long run, are gonna need to do it.

00:25:07 ◼   ► I can see the argument that they'd be like, "All right, let's just let it go while we

00:25:13 ◼   ► ponder.

00:25:14 ◼   ► We're not gonna make you do this thing because we're considering it."

00:25:18 ◼   ► It's also possible though that they'll be like, "No, this is a real stretch here."

00:25:23 ◼   ► I don't know.

00:25:25 ◼   ► Judges do what they want.

00:25:26 ◼   ► - I don't know much about what the Ninth Circuit Court of Appeals is, I just know the phrase,

00:25:31 ◼   ► but tech companies, especially Apple, not particularly popular right now.

00:25:36 ◼   ► - From a political standpoint.

00:25:39 ◼   ► - It's true across the aisle.

00:25:43 ◼   ► And so on something like the Ninth Circuit Court, which is famous, it's one of the more

00:25:48 ◼   ► liberal courts, although it is more conservative than it used to be.

00:25:52 ◼   ► It's a panel of judges.

00:25:54 ◼   ► I think they...

00:25:55 ◼   ► I don't actually know a lot of detail about the process.

00:25:59 ◼   ► I have a state Supreme Court judge and a federal judge in my extended family, but I have to

00:26:11 ◼   ► sadly nod and say, "I don't know what the process is at the Ninth Circuit."

00:26:15 ◼   ► - I don't think we're gonna be blamed for...

00:26:17 ◼   ► - A panel?

00:26:19 ◼   ► I imagine that they either have a judge who has to act on the initial appeal or they convene

00:26:24 ◼   ► a small panel of judges to look at this.

00:26:28 ◼   ► So I don't know the details of it, but it's gonna go to the Ninth Circuit.

00:26:31 ◼   ► And I have read people who know more about the law than I do say that it'll probably

00:26:35 ◼   ► just get stayed while they look at it.

00:26:37 ◼   ► - I mean, I know personally, I want them to say, "No, you have to do it 'cause I want

00:26:42 ◼   ► the drama."

00:26:44 ◼   ► I'm a big drama lama when it comes to this.

00:26:46 ◼   ► - Sure, I know.

00:26:47 ◼   ► - I want the drama.

00:26:48 ◼   ► And plus, do I want the drama in December?

00:26:49 ◼   ► Yeah, I do.

00:26:50 ◼   ► 'Cause December's usually a quiet month.

00:26:52 ◼   ► I'd love a bit of "Apreview" drama.

00:26:54 ◼   ► That'd be fun.

00:26:56 ◼   ► So we'll see.

00:26:57 ◼   ► - Sure.

00:26:58 ◼   ► - I think it's gonna be messy if it does...

00:27:01 ◼   ► This is just gonna continue to be messy.

00:27:03 ◼   ► Whenever they do eventually get to adding, like saying, "Oh yeah, you can put these links

00:27:07 ◼   ► in," it's gonna be a mess, I feel like.

00:27:09 ◼   ► And I'm intrigued to see what they end up doing with this.

00:27:13 ◼   ► - Yeah.

00:27:14 ◼   ► I mean, this is the...

00:27:16 ◼   ► Apple's fighting, but Apple's also making changes 'cause they're knowing when they need

00:27:20 ◼   ► to fight and when they need to not fight or when they can't fight.

00:27:23 ◼   ► And change is happening kind of regardless, but it's not always a change that everybody

00:27:29 ◼   ► envisions, right?

00:27:30 ◼   ► It's a disappointing minor change instead of something that's huge and earth shattering.

00:27:37 ◼   ► As we discussed last week, even something like separate payment systems, which everybody

00:27:41 ◼   ► said, "Finally, I won't need to give Apple 15% or 30%," it looks like even if that comes

00:27:47 ◼   ► to pass, you'll still need to give Apple 15 or 30%, right?

00:27:52 ◼   ► That's what Google is saying is, "No, no, no.

00:27:54 ◼   ► Regardless of who's processing the credit card, you still gotta give us our cut."

00:27:58 ◼   ► And it doesn't seem like that may be a stronger legal leg to stand on.

00:28:05 ◼   ► So I think, in the words of the Princess Bride, get used to disappointment.

00:28:14 ◼   ► - Apple have launched something called Business Essentials.

00:28:17 ◼   ► - It's true.

00:28:18 ◼   ► - What is this, Jason?

00:28:19 ◼   ► - It's a service, Myke.

00:28:20 ◼   ► It's a service.

00:28:21 ◼   ► - Oh, there we go.

00:28:22 ◼   ► Ding, ding, ding, ding, ding.

00:28:23 ◼   ► How do you make the bar graph go up?

00:28:27 ◼   ► - Okay.

00:28:28 ◼   ► - Add more services.

00:28:29 ◼   ► - So Apple has added a service that's for smaller businesses, between 50 and 500 employees.

00:28:34 ◼   ► And there are lots of companies out there that do this, some of whom have probably sponsored

00:28:39 ◼   ► this podcast in the past.

00:28:40 ◼   ► - Maybe.

00:28:41 ◼   ► - There are a lot of work in this space, but of course, here's the first party.

00:28:46 ◼   ► Here's the platform owner coming into the space.

00:28:48 ◼   ► Could be dangerous, could be nothing.

00:28:49 ◼   ► I mean, honestly, the history of this sort of thing.

00:28:54 ◼   ► Sometimes the platform owner rolls in and you're like, "Uh-oh, the jig is up," and everybody

00:28:57 ◼   ► has to adjust to work around them.

00:29:00 ◼   ► And we see that a lot when Apple comes in in any market and says, "We have a new app

00:29:04 ◼   ► that does this."

00:29:05 ◼   ► Everybody else is like, "Okay, well, we can't just do the bare bones.

00:29:07 ◼   ► We have to do all the edge cases because Apple's gonna hit them the middle of this market and

00:29:11 ◼   ► we're gonna be around the edges."

00:29:13 ◼   ► We've also seen it though where a first party has come in, the platform owner rolls in and

00:29:18 ◼   ► says, "Ha-ha, we're here now, we've solved it," and they fall flat on their face because

00:29:22 ◼   ► they don't actually understand that market at all and thought that just because they're

00:29:25 ◼   ► the platform owner, they could rake in the money from the customers.

00:29:29 ◼   ► And they can't because they don't really understand the details.

00:29:32 ◼   ► Or, and I think this is relevant in this story too, sometimes organizations that are the

00:29:37 ◼   ► platform owner have to make certain decisions because it's their platform that third parties

00:29:44 ◼   ► don't need to make and it comes down to things like how well do we support things that aren't

00:29:49 ◼   ► from Apple, for example, or is there something political inside Apple where like a certain

00:29:53 ◼   ► kind of thing that you really should offer and they're like, "Well, we can't offer that

00:29:56 ◼   ► because that's some other department," and all the competitors do.

00:30:00 ◼   ► I don't know enough about this space to be able to drill down in detail here, but this

00:30:04 ◼   ► is just always what happens when stuff like this goes on.

00:30:07 ◼   ► So in this particular case, what they're doing is they're combining a bunch of stuff together.

00:30:13 ◼   ► They're building a web-based device management system that uses existing device management

00:30:18 ◼   ► APIs that are in, I mean, they're in iOS 15 and macOS Monterey now and other developers

00:30:27 ◼   ► also use them.

00:30:28 ◼   ► So it's not, they're not doing secret sauce, at least not yet, where they are building

00:30:33 ◼   ► something and it's only for Apple.

00:30:35 ◼   ► They're literally building an Apple version of the stuff on top of their public API for

00:30:40 ◼   ► device management is my understanding.

00:30:43 ◼   ► So that's part of it, which is like, and they've got a philosophy, which is you tie it to a

00:30:47 ◼   ► person and you generate an Apple ID for that person for your business and they log in and

00:30:52 ◼   ► it's a separate cryptographic key from their personal Apple ID.

00:30:56 ◼   ► So their stuff belongs to them, even if it's their iPhone, their stuff belongs to them,

00:31:01 ◼   ► your stuff belongs to you.

00:31:02 ◼   ► This is a system that Apple's been working on its platforms for a long time and use the

00:31:06 ◼   ► website to roll out a new laptop or roll out a new iPad to them or whatever else.

00:31:12 ◼   ► Lots of companies do this, but Apple is now going to offer that as part of this service.

00:31:17 ◼   ► They are including iCloud storage as a part of it.

00:31:22 ◼   ► The base seems really vanilla.

00:31:24 ◼   ► Like the base plan here seems pretty basic and it's just a matter of, it's security policies

00:31:31 ◼   ► and apps can be rolled in and they've got an app that basically is a collection of the

00:31:36 ◼   ► apps that the company owns and wants to deploy on the systems.

00:31:43 ◼   ► It's all pretty basic stuff.

00:31:44 ◼   ► I think the part that is interesting is that, and it's in beta now until next spring for

00:31:49 ◼   ► free so people can try it out and then they're going to start to charge for it.

00:31:53 ◼   ► So there will be a starting at $3 per user per month and then going up based on how many

00:31:58 ◼   ► devices a user has and how much iCloud storage they've got.

00:32:04 ◼   ► But the really interesting thing to me is that they're also going to upsell people to

00:32:09 ◼   ► a tier that has AppleCare Plus, another service.

00:32:15 ◼   ► We don't think of AppleCare as a service, but it is one of Apple's more profitable services.

00:32:19 ◼   ► It's a big part of the services revenue.

00:32:22 ◼   ► We think about like Apple Music and Apple TV Plus, but AppleCare is a big part of Apple

00:32:27 ◼   ► services revenue.

00:32:29 ◼   ► And there is an enterprise AppleCare Plus.

00:32:33 ◼   ► This is going to be a business essentials AppleCare Plus plan, but the idea here, to hear Apple

00:32:39 ◼   ► tell it, the idea here is one, there will be phone support.

00:32:42 ◼   ► So if you're a smallish company and somebody's having a problem getting something on their

00:32:46 ◼   ► iPhone to work, instead of having to have your smallish company's smallish or non-existent

00:32:52 ◼   ► help desk answer that question, they can just call AppleCare support and ask that question.

00:32:57 ◼   ► That seems like a very attractive part of this, right?

00:33:01 ◼   ► Right.

00:33:02 ◼   ► And again, it's first party, it's Apple support people.

00:33:05 ◼   ► And then the second part of it is repair.

00:33:08 ◼   ► And it's not just, they said it's not just in an Apple store repair, but it's also on

00:33:13 ◼   ► premises repair.

00:33:14 ◼   ► So if you think about that, if you're a distributed company and you've got a problem with a laptop

00:33:19 ◼   ► in somebody's house somewhere, in this scenario, if you're paying for this service, they will

00:33:26 ◼   ► send a tech to their house to look at that laptop within hours, right?

00:33:33 ◼   ► Not like in a week, but like within hours.

00:33:36 ◼   ► And that's not going to be cheap, right?

00:33:38 ◼   ► But it also, I can see why it would have appeal and most importantly, it takes advantage of

00:33:44 ◼   ► the infrastructure of AppleCare.

00:33:45 ◼   ► And that's one of the reasons that it's kind of interesting is that they're using their

00:33:49 ◼   ► existing very large AppleCare infrastructure, including their enterprise version, and then

00:33:55 ◼   ► baking another version of it in that uses this service for smaller business.

00:34:00 ◼   ► So it's an interesting idea.

00:34:04 ◼   ► And my guess is that it's neither going...

00:34:07 ◼   ► My guess is it's not going to eradicate all the other companies that are out there doing

00:34:10 ◼   ► this sort of thing, but it may make them have to adjust their strategy because Apple is

00:34:17 ◼   ► going to come in with something basic.

00:34:20 ◼   ► And it's a little bit like Apple making iPhone cases, right?

00:34:23 ◼   ► It's like there is something to be said for the one-stop shop where you buy a bunch of

00:34:27 ◼   ► devices from your business rep for your 40 person company or sorry, 50 person company,

00:34:35 ◼   ► 100 person company.

00:34:36 ◼   ► And they immediately are like, we've also got a whole device management system that

00:34:40 ◼   ► could be part of our deal with you.

00:34:42 ◼   ► And like, there's some appeal to that.

00:34:45 ◼   ► Doesn't mean that they're going to eradicate the competition here.

00:34:48 ◼   ► In fact, I think it's more likely that this is found wanting and that they have to decide

00:34:52 ◼   ► whether they want to fix it or abandon it.

00:34:55 ◼   ► But it is an interesting new wrinkle in Apple's chasing of services revenue.

00:35:02 ◼   ► I think that it's for me, like obviously the stuff that they can do is fine, right?

00:35:07 ◼   ► And like when you were talking earlier about other companies, one of them is Jamf and I

00:35:12 ◼   ► saw a story where the Jamf CEO was welcomed to Apple to, you know, we welcome you to this

00:35:16 ◼   ► business.

00:35:18 ◼   ► And it's like, cause you said, like sometimes then people can realize, oh, we need, oh,

00:35:23 ◼   ► this Apple's thing doesn't do this thing.

00:35:25 ◼   ► Does anything else?

00:35:26 ◼   ► Yeah, it is always going to be, sometimes it's famous last words, but it's always a

00:35:30 ◼   ► validation of your business, right?

00:35:32 ◼   ► When Apple says, you know what, supporting these businesses is important.

00:35:36 ◼   ► And then, and you as a company have struggled to explain, which sometimes happens, why you,

00:35:42 ◼   ► why businesses need your product.

00:35:45 ◼   ► It's incredibly validating to have Apple to point to and say, see, Apple's doing it.

00:35:50 ◼   ► Of course it's like, of course it's valid.

00:35:53 ◼   ► Apple's doing it.

00:35:54 ◼   ► And what we provide is more than what Apple is doing.

00:35:56 ◼   ► And that's the, that's the trick, right?

00:35:58 ◼   ► That's always the trick when the platform vendor enters some category is that you've

00:36:01 ◼   ► got to be nimble because they won't be probably, and you've got to be able to deal with the

00:36:07 ◼   ► edge cases because they won't probably.

00:36:09 ◼   ► And you, and you build a business around all of that.

00:36:13 ◼   ► And my guess is that there's a lot of business to be had that is not going to get taken away

00:36:18 ◼   ► by Apple's thing, but it is interesting that Apple is, is going there and targeting this.

00:36:26 ◼   ► It's also, yes, if you look at other, and we're getting some of this in our Discord

00:36:31 ◼   ► members chat right now, which is a lot of Apple's competition does versions of this.

00:36:36 ◼   ► I mean, Dell is a great example because Dell sells into a lot of businesses and, and they've

00:36:40 ◼   ► got, you know, that kind of support level too.

00:36:43 ◼   ► And like, it's a good, I would, I would imagine that this isn't something coming from the

00:36:49 ◼   ► services group saying, you got to give us, Hey, business people, you got to give us services

00:36:54 ◼   ► revenue.

00:36:55 ◼   ► My guess is that this maybe comes from the business people saying we need to compete

00:37:01 ◼   ► with the Dell's of the world better.

00:37:05 ◼   ► And it's not about, we're worried that Jamf exists or we're worried that Kanji exists.

00:37:10 ◼   ► It's more that we're going into organizations and they're saying, why can't you give us

00:37:15 ◼   ► what Dell gives us?

00:37:18 ◼   ► And I don't know a lot about that world again, but it's, you know, if it's anything like

00:37:24 ◼   ► it was when I knew more about it, it's cutthroat and, you know, and it's not, let's roll over

00:37:29 ◼   ► this small company that's doing device management.

00:37:32 ◼   ► It's more like, how do I sell 5,000 devices into this company?

00:37:36 ◼   ► And when I'm competing with other companies that want to put, you know, Dell laptops or

00:37:40 ◼   ► whatever on the desks.

00:37:42 ◼   ► But I do think that that like the onsite tech support and the over the phone tech support,

00:37:47 ◼   ► that's like a real tick in the box for Apple.

00:37:50 ◼   ► If you're, if you know, if you're a company or trying to decide which one of these do

00:37:54 ◼   ► you want.

00:37:55 ◼   ► And that's the beauty of, of this strategy is that you're leveraging Apple care like

00:38:00 ◼   ► that, like Apple care exists and everybody has good and bad experiences with Apple care,

00:38:04 ◼   ► but Apple care exists and exists for consumers and it exists for enterprise.

00:38:08 ◼   ► And they're basically saying we are packaging in Apple care, a special tier of Apple care

00:38:14 ◼   ► that is just for people who are in the business essentials program.

00:38:18 ◼   ► And it's going to have the phone support and the in-person support.

00:38:21 ◼   ► And it's from the, you know, it's from authorized cause it's literally Apple.

00:38:25 ◼   ► So it's authorized by Apple and we can roll that together in a plan.

00:38:29 ◼   ► And you know, I think their story would be that way.

00:38:32 ◼   ► You poor little hundred person company who cannot afford that level of support.

00:38:37 ◼   ► If you can pay per user or per device or it is both cause it's you pay per user, but the

00:38:43 ◼   ► amount you pay is based on how many devices they have and how much support they get.

00:38:47 ◼   ► But you can basically, you write Apple a check and then Apple will support its own stuff

00:38:53 ◼   ► directly on the phone, in person, whatever it needs to do.

00:38:57 ◼   ► And that that's a good, that's a good sales pitch.

00:39:00 ◼   ► This episode of upgrade is brought to you by Capital One.

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00:40:35 ◼   ► Capital One, what's in your wallet?

00:40:37 ◼   ► Our thanks to Capital One for their support of this show and Relay FM.

00:40:42 ◼   ► Let's talk about Netflix.

00:40:43 ◼   ► Da dum.

00:40:44 ◼   ► I see what you did there.

00:40:46 ◼   ► Great British Bake Off.

00:40:47 ◼   ► What's going on?

00:40:48 ◼   ► They're down to the semi-finals.

00:40:49 ◼   ► It's very exciting.

00:40:50 ◼   ► It's a great season.

00:40:51 ◼   ► I haven't watched it week by week yet before because I was watching them season by season

00:40:58 ◼   ► but then we've watched it all now.

00:41:01 ◼   ► This season came on and I've been enjoying watching it.

00:41:03 ◼   ► I know it kills Netflix to release it weekly but I love it.

00:41:06 ◼   ► Is that how they do it?

00:41:07 ◼   ► That's cool.

00:41:08 ◼   ► That's cool that you get a weekly robust.

00:41:11 ◼   ► Every Friday I think it just shows up on Netflix.

00:41:13 ◼   ► I'm current to the latest episode now.

00:41:16 ◼   ► We're not actually going to spoil the Great British Bake Off here by the way.

00:41:19 ◼   ► No, we're not.

00:41:20 ◼   ► We're talking about something completely different which is Netflix games on the App Store.

00:41:24 ◼   ► That's right.

00:41:25 ◼   ► There should be a GBBO game though.

00:41:26 ◼   ► There totally should be.

00:41:27 ◼   ► Well, Great British Bake Off does not belong to Netflix.

00:41:32 ◼   ► It does everywhere but in the UK.

00:41:33 ◼   ► It does belong to them.

00:41:34 ◼   ► They would have to make it the Great British Baking Show.

00:41:37 ◼   ► AP.

00:41:38 ◼   ► AP, whatever.

00:41:39 ◼   ► They license it.

00:41:40 ◼   ► Anyway, yes, okay.

00:41:41 ◼   ► Anywho.

00:41:42 ◼   ► They should still do it.

00:41:43 ◼   ► I don't care.

00:41:44 ◼   ► I don't know what that game would even be.

00:41:46 ◼   ► Is it...

00:41:47 ◼   ► Baking game.

00:41:48 ◼   ► Yeah, but what does that mean?

00:41:49 ◼   ► Anyway, games.

00:41:50 ◼   ► I think a Great British Bake Off game could be fun.

00:41:52 ◼   ► Anyway, maybe a VR game.

00:41:54 ◼   ► Sure.

00:41:55 ◼   ► You know, so you have to be in the tent and you're like trying to make a meringue.

00:41:58 ◼   ► That would actually be excellent.

00:42:00 ◼   ► Someone needs to work on that.

00:42:02 ◼   ► It's like Job Simulator except it's a tent simulator.

00:42:04 ◼   ► Yeah, exactly.

00:42:05 ◼   ► A Job Simulator version of the Great British Bake Off and it's like soggy bottom.

00:42:10 ◼   ► Anyway.

00:42:11 ◼   ► Did you see...

00:42:12 ◼   ► Oh, that's what you lose if you get the soggy bottom.

00:42:13 ◼   ► Did you know...

00:42:14 ◼   ► So in the US it has to be called the Great British Baking Show because of a trademark

00:42:19 ◼   ► because Pillsbury owns the trademark of Bake Off.

00:42:22 ◼   ► Did you know that they shoot a totally separate intro for the US now?

00:42:26 ◼   ► The only reason I found this out is because I was talking about it on Analog of Casey

00:42:32 ◼   ► and somebody wrote in to tell us that they record two.

00:42:34 ◼   ► So when they say, "Welcome to..." and then they do both of them.

00:42:37 ◼   ► Yeah, because they didn't used to.

00:42:38 ◼   ► When it was not a hit on Netflix in America, they used to just cut away or not show it

00:42:47 ◼   ► and they now record their second version where they say it the American way so that we in

00:42:53 ◼   ► America can get the...

00:42:54 ◼   ► In fact, it used to be at the end they used to put up the name and there would be this

00:42:57 ◼   ► weird freeze at the end right before the credits where they had to freeze the video so that

00:43:02 ◼   ► they didn't violate the trademark.

00:43:04 ◼   ► But now they produce two versions.

00:43:06 ◼   ► I really love Matt and Noel together by the way.

00:43:09 ◼   ► I think they're a fantastic pair.

00:43:10 ◼   ► Yeah, I had no idea that they would work out so well.

00:43:14 ◼   ► Yeah, they really, really are.

00:43:15 ◼   ► Anyway.

00:43:16 ◼   ► It's my Taskmaster friend and my Doctor Who friend and now they're my baking friends.

00:43:21 ◼   ► We are not talking about the Great British Bake Off.

00:43:23 ◼   ► So as previously...

00:43:24 ◼   ► I think we are, Myke.

00:43:25 ◼   ► I think it happened.

00:43:26 ◼   ► We're not continuing.

00:43:27 ◼   ► For Christmas last year, I had Lauren get me a Paul Hollywood cookbook.

00:43:31 ◼   ► Yes.

00:43:32 ◼   ► Okay, let's talk about games on Netflix.

00:43:33 ◼   ► It's fine.

00:43:34 ◼   ► So previously reported that Netflix were going to start working on games.

00:43:37 ◼   ► It was a rumor and then they spoke about it on their earnings call.

00:43:40 ◼   ► These games have now started to roll out on both the Play Store and the App Store.

00:43:45 ◼   ► There are no ads, there are no fees, and there are no in-app purchases in these apps, but

00:43:50 ◼   ► you have to be a Netflix subscriber to play any of the games.

00:43:54 ◼   ► So all of these games have been launched as individual titles.

00:43:58 ◼   ► They're not inside of the Netflix app and there isn't like a Netflix games app.

00:44:02 ◼   ► There's just a selection of games.

00:44:05 ◼   ► So this is something that you may remember that Microsoft did not want to do with launching

00:44:09 ◼   ► Game Pass on iOS, which is why that's now only available on a browser on iOS.

00:44:15 ◼   ► Now one interesting wrinkle that has been discovered about this is if you go to one

00:44:21 ◼   ► of these games on the App Store, and I'll put a link in the show notes to a couple of

00:44:26 ◼   ► articles, one at Six Colors, one at 9to5Mac, which links out to some of these games.

00:44:30 ◼   ► If you go to them and you're not a Netflix subscriber when you open them, you can subscribe

00:44:36 ◼   ► to Netflix through Apple's in-app purchase system inside of these games, which is something

00:44:41 ◼   ► you cannot do in the Netflix app right now.

00:44:46 ◼   ► And I find that fascinating because that is Netflix for some reason thinking that these

00:44:51 ◼   ► games are important enough that they will play by Apple's rules.

00:44:55 ◼   ► Yeah, yeah.

00:44:57 ◼   ► I think the games initiative is important enough to Netflix that they will play by Apple's

00:45:02 ◼   ► rules.

00:45:03 ◼   ► Yeah, I think that's exactly what it is.

00:45:04 ◼   ► I don't think Netflix believes this is a real major source of acquisition of subscribers

00:45:13 ◼   ► for them, and so are they willing to do it if they need to?

00:45:17 ◼   ► Yeah, right?

00:45:18 ◼   ► Like I just I don't think this is a big business model change for them.

00:45:21 ◼   ► I think this is them saying, "If that's what we need to do to get games in the App Store,

00:45:25 ◼   ► let's do it."

00:45:26 ◼   ► Because it's not like it's going to be, I mean, it's only going to really be people

00:45:29 ◼   ► in the games, and the people getting the games are going to be Netflix subscribers.

00:45:32 ◼   ► It's really not going to be a big deal.

00:45:34 ◼   ► Unless they have a hit, but we'll talk about that in a minute.

00:45:36 ◼   ► I played one of these games.

00:45:39 ◼   ► I wanted to see what the experience was all about.

00:45:40 ◼   ► Okay.

00:45:41 ◼   ► I tried too.

00:45:42 ◼   ► Okay, cool.

00:45:43 ◼   ► I was poking around with one, and I played a game called Shooting Hoops.

00:45:46 ◼   ► Yes, I saw that one.

00:45:48 ◼   ► It's one of the games that I played.

00:45:51 ◼   ► One thing that I found interesting is I didn't need to do anything to sign in.

00:45:55 ◼   ► I was logged in automatically, knew it was me, and I know that there's a way that apps

00:45:59 ◼   ► can do this because I've had Google apps do this.

00:46:01 ◼   ► Yeah, Microsoft Office does that.

00:46:02 ◼   ► Yeah, exactly.

00:46:03 ◼   ► They know you're signed in somewhere, and they're able to pull that out.

00:46:05 ◼   ► I don't know how this works, but it is a thing that can happen.

00:46:08 ◼   ► And the game was like not very good.

00:46:12 ◼   ► So I want to try and explain this.

00:46:14 ◼   ► It's a basketball shooting hoops kind of game, right?

00:46:18 ◼   ► So you're shooting hoops of a basketball, but the shooting comes from the fact that

00:46:21 ◼   ► in the game, each basketball has a Nerf gun attached to it.

00:46:25 ◼   ► And when you tap on the screen, it shoots a Nerf bullet out of the gun, so the ball

00:46:31 ◼   ► moves in the opposite direction to where the gun is pointed.

00:46:35 ◼   ► And you're supposed to basically keep shooting in the right direction until you get the ball

00:46:39 ◼   ► in the hoop.

00:46:40 ◼   ► It was really hard and just not very fun.

00:46:44 ◼   ► It was not good.

00:46:46 ◼   ► It was like basically I could tell someone had a good idea for a game from the name,

00:46:50 ◼   ► and I don't think it was very well executed.

00:46:55 ◼   ► This isn't to say that they can keep making games like this.

00:46:58 ◼   ► I think of Flappy Bird, right?

00:46:59 ◼   ► Flappy Bird is just really hard and really annoying and not really like a technically

00:47:04 ◼   ► advanced game.

00:47:06 ◼   ► It caught on.

00:47:07 ◼   ► That could happen.

00:47:08 ◼   ► Do you think Netflix have the...

00:47:10 ◼   ► What games did you play out of interest?

00:47:12 ◼   ► I didn't.

00:47:13 ◼   ► I tried, but I'm on a beta and I couldn't buy them.

00:47:17 ◼   ► I tried to get them, you know, and I would put in my password and it would say, "That's

00:47:22 ◼   ► great."

00:47:23 ◼   ► And then nothing would happen.

00:47:24 ◼   ► And then if I found them in the app store and I tried to download them, they would just

00:47:27 ◼   ► spin.

00:47:28 ◼   ► And I'm like, "Okay, I'm going to give it to the beta that it's probably an iOS 15.1

00:47:33 ◼   ► beta problem."

00:47:34 ◼   ► But I did get to the...

00:47:36 ◼   ► The thing that I liked about it is that there's a strip in the Netflix interface that is we

00:47:41 ◼   ► also have games and here are our games and you can tap and it will open a window that

00:47:47 ◼   ► tells you what the game is.

00:47:48 ◼   ► And then if you tap in there, it will open that app store basically floating window that

00:47:55 ◼   ► lets you do the download.

00:47:57 ◼   ► That's interesting.

00:47:58 ◼   ► Oh, I've seen this now.

00:47:59 ◼   ► That's interesting.

00:48:00 ◼   ► See, so that's...

00:48:01 ◼   ► I think that's the whole idea here is that you're a Netflix subscriber and they want

00:48:07 ◼   ► to be...

00:48:10 ◼   ► I don't want to say they want to be like Quibi because nobody wants to be like Quibi because

00:48:14 ◼   ► Quibi is dead in a ditch.

00:48:16 ◼   ► But I would say entertainment services are well aware that there are lots of times when

00:48:21 ◼   ► you're watching a 30-minute long TV show is not a thing that you're going to do.

00:48:25 ◼   ► And so they want to be...

00:48:28 ◼   ► The ego involved here is Netflix wants to be the place you always think of when you

00:48:32 ◼   ► want to be entertained in any way, which I would argue is silly.

00:48:38 ◼   ► And generally, they should get over themselves and realize they're really good at one thing

00:48:44 ◼   ► and it doesn't mean that they need to be good at everything.

00:48:49 ◼   ► And that was Quibi's idea was like, "We'll make videos that you watch in the supermarket

00:48:53 ◼   ► line."

00:48:54 ◼   ► And I was like, "Okay."

00:48:55 ◼   ► It didn't work.

00:48:56 ◼   ► But what Netflix wants to do is like, "Well, you're bored and you're on your phone and

00:49:02 ◼   ► Netflix is there, but you're not going to watch Netflix.

00:49:04 ◼   ► But if you learn that Netflix has games and they're included with your subscription, then

00:49:08 ◼   ► maybe you'll play Netflix games and it will just add to the value that you connect to

00:49:13 ◼   ► having Netflix."

00:49:14 ◼   ► And then Netflix is no longer just a movie service.

00:49:16 ◼   ► It is an entertainment service on your phone that is for videos and it is also for games.

00:49:21 ◼   ► That is the premise, right?

00:49:23 ◼   ► And I don't think it's a bad premise.

00:49:25 ◼   ► I think that having the games exposed in the app, having them tied to intellectual property

00:49:30 ◼   ► of Netflix is fine, but it doesn't have to be that way.

00:49:33 ◼   ► They're basically building an Apple Arcade except a cheap version of it, in terms of

00:49:39 ◼   ► the apps not being that great so far.

00:49:42 ◼   ► But they're building Apple Arcade where it's like, "Look, Netflix comes with games now

00:49:46 ◼   ► too.

00:49:47 ◼   ► So one less reason to cancel Netflix because you'll also lose all these great games that

00:49:49 ◼   ► we provide for you."

00:49:52 ◼   ► Interesting idea.

00:49:53 ◼   ► And it's not too bad, right?

00:49:56 ◼   ► If you can jump straight from the Netflix app to find the games and download them, and

00:50:00 ◼   ► then they're just in your app library on your phone or your iPad, that's not a bad experience.

00:50:07 ◼   ► It was bad for me because I was unable to get them.

00:50:09 ◼   ► But again, I'm going to chalk that one up to the beta.

00:50:11 ◼   ► I like the idea that right from within the Netflix app, you can tap, read, tap, get,

00:50:17 ◼   ► and open.

00:50:18 ◼   ► And you're four layers deep at that point, but still, you can get to the game.

00:50:24 ◼   ► I'm surprised that they do that though.

00:50:26 ◼   ► This must be a, "We did everything Apple wanted us to do and they let us do this part" thing.

00:50:34 ◼   ► That is no different than, I'll mention Microsoft Office again, but it's no different from any

00:50:41 ◼   ► other company that has other apps in the store that can link to their other apps in the store.

00:50:46 ◼   ► And that's what they're doing.

00:50:47 ◼   ► Right.

00:50:48 ◼   ► And what I was thinking of, which is, this isn't that, is the idea of you can't have

00:50:51 ◼   ► an alternate app store, but if it's your own application, surely that's okay to link to.

00:50:56 ◼   ► Yeah.

00:50:57 ◼   ► Well, and it's not an alternate app store.

00:50:58 ◼   ► It's the app store.

00:50:59 ◼   ► It's your apps in the app store.

00:51:02 ◼   ► Right.

00:51:03 ◼   ► Yeah, of course.

00:51:04 ◼   ► You're not downloading them from the Netflix app, are you?

00:51:06 ◼   ► In the end, you are in a panel that is an app store panel with an app store buy, or

00:51:13 ◼   ► in this case, get, because they're free with in-app purchase and the in-app purchase is

00:51:18 ◼   ► Netflix and you can just get them.

00:51:20 ◼   ► And so it's exactly how Apple wants companies like this to do it.

00:51:26 ◼   ► And this is, you're completely right.

00:51:28 ◼   ► This is what Apple wanted Microsoft to do.

00:51:30 ◼   ► And I think Microsoft's whole point was, well, this is ridiculous.

00:51:35 ◼   ► They aren't apps, they're just streaming.

00:51:38 ◼   ► And Apple said, yeah, but you could just put them in the app store and have an in-app purchase

00:51:44 ◼   ► thing for your service and people will search for your app and they'll find it, the game

00:51:49 ◼   ► they want to play, and they'll find out that it's through Microsoft Game Pass and then

00:51:52 ◼   ► they'll, like, you could do it.

00:51:54 ◼   ► It's just a lot of work, but it keeps the sanctity from Apple's perspective of the app

00:51:58 ◼   ► store.

00:52:00 ◼   ► And I will admit there's lots of complexity that's not in this Netflix implementation,

00:52:05 ◼   ► but as an implementation, it's fine, right?

00:52:07 ◼   ► It's literally, you're scrolling down through Netflix stuff and it says, hey games, and

00:52:11 ◼   ► you tap on a game and you can get it and you can play it.

00:52:14 ◼   ► Like that's a perfectly reasonable way to do it.

00:52:18 ◼   ► Yeah, I mean, I think it's working fine for Netflix.

00:52:20 ◼   ► I still stand by Microsoft saying, no, we're not going to do it.

00:52:26 ◼   ► Because my feeling is like, well, they don't need it.

00:52:29 ◼   ► They don't need it in the app store because they do it on the web.

00:52:32 ◼   ► I don't think Apple, I don't, and I've said this before, I think I have a general frustration

00:52:39 ◼   ► at the moment with Apple kind of believing that they can tell every other business how

00:52:44 ◼   ► to run their business.

00:52:46 ◼   ► In this case, I think, I mean, with Microsoft, Microsoft could do it or not, and they chose

00:52:50 ◼   ► not to.

00:52:51 ◼   ► And it's like, fine, you don't have to.

00:52:54 ◼   ► From Apple's perspective, having an app and being in the app store is helping your product.

00:53:01 ◼   ► And so you probably want to be in the app store.

00:53:02 ◼   ► And Microsoft basically said, we're fine, thanks.

00:53:04 ◼   ► Like we don't, we don't need that.

00:53:06 ◼   ► And they found a way to do it.

00:53:08 ◼   ► And like what I took away from the Netflix thing is that Microsoft totally could do this

00:53:13 ◼   ► if it wanted to, but it really doesn't want to.

00:53:16 ◼   ► And that's fine.

00:53:17 ◼   ► Like I think it would be weird and maybe not very good.

00:53:20 ◼   ► And I think that might be enough reason for Microsoft to say, we're not going to litter

00:53:23 ◼   ► the app store with our shell apps that just open a window to a virtual game somewhere,

00:53:31 ◼   ► instant somewhere so you can play it.

00:53:32 ◼   ► Fair enough.

00:53:35 ◼   ► But Netflix has shown that they can go down this path.

00:53:37 ◼   ► I do wonder though, what part and for what reason are they allowing the sign up with

00:53:44 ◼   ► Apple's in app purchase system part?

00:53:46 ◼   ► Why is that happening?

00:53:47 ◼   ► Because Netflix don't want to do this.

00:53:49 ◼   ► So why are they doing it?

00:53:50 ◼   ► I think the rule is that certain kinds of apps have that have to offer functionality

00:53:57 ◼   ► or if they're a subscription only, they have to offer a sign up.

00:54:00 ◼   ► So it's the same thing as, I believe it's the same thing as that.

00:54:03 ◼   ► If you open a Microsoft office app, you can buy Office 365 in an app purchase, or you

00:54:10 ◼   ► can enter in your Microsoft.

00:54:12 ◼   ► And this might be the second, maybe potentially bigger issue with the Xbox thing.

00:54:17 ◼   ► Sure.

00:54:18 ◼   ► Right.

00:54:19 ◼   ► Like if every time you get that amazing premium game that's on Xbox Game Pass, you have to

00:54:25 ◼   ► offer a Game Pass subscription where Apple takes a cut and that they don't want to do

00:54:30 ◼   ► that.

00:54:31 ◼   ► But also I think that's a different scenario because Netflix has, if Microsoft bought Game

00:54:37 ◼   ► Pass, like there's no Game Pass user base on iOS to speak of.

00:54:43 ◼   ► And so everybody doing it is going to be prompted with that sign in.

00:54:47 ◼   ► Whereas Netflix is, I would wager 99.99% of people who find these games are going to find

00:54:55 ◼   ► them through Netflix and they're going to be Netflix subscribers.

00:54:58 ◼   ► So the risk of losing a lot of revenue by having somebody find the game from the other

00:55:02 ◼   ► side, and you're right, they could have a breakout hit that somebody might, and then

00:55:07 ◼   ► they would open it and they'd be like, oh, Netflix, well, I don't want to sign up for

00:55:10 ◼   ► Netflix.

00:55:11 ◼   ► For people to find a game everybody's talking about and literally sign up for Netflix to

00:55:15 ◼   ► play the game.

00:55:16 ◼   ► Now, whoever's in charge of games at Netflix, that's their dream.

00:55:20 ◼   ► That is the moment where they're like, we did it everybody, we made it.

00:55:25 ◼   ► It's probably not going to happen and it's not that big a deal because what they want

00:55:30 ◼   ► in the end is just to drive people from out of the Netflix app into the app store to get

00:55:36 ◼   ► these games.

00:55:37 ◼   ► And then once the games are on your home screen, then you win.

00:55:40 ◼   ► Netflix has got you there and they're done.

00:55:43 ◼   ► Yeah, then of the whole Netflix, this whole Netflix game thing seems pretty misguided

00:55:48 ◼   ► to me.

00:55:49 ◼   ► This doesn't really feel like a winning thing.

00:55:51 ◼   ► I mean, I likened it to Quibi, okay?

00:55:53 ◼   ► So I'm with you.

00:55:54 ◼   ► I'm with you there.

00:55:55 ◼   ► I think I don't, I mean, look, capitalism, I get it, but companies that dominate in an

00:56:05 ◼   ► industry don't have to imagine what if we dominated in all the other industries too.

00:56:12 ◼   ► And that's what I get a whiff of from Netflix here is like, just because people like watching

00:56:17 ◼   ► your movies and TV shows doesn't mean that you need to capture their attention when they're

00:56:24 ◼   ► waiting at the dentist, right?

00:56:26 ◼   ► Like you don't have to own that space just because, but someone at Netflix is like, no,

00:56:32 ◼   ► all entertainment of all kinds ever must only be Netflix.

00:56:37 ◼   ► Like okay, but it seems like you, it seems like a waste of time.

00:56:42 ◼   ► Because it's like, you could say, well, what about Apple Arcade?

00:56:46 ◼   ► And like, I say, I would say I hear you, but it's different.

00:56:48 ◼   ► Like Apple have the entire app store, right?

00:56:52 ◼   ► And so like having their own curated games section that you pay a subscription for just

00:56:57 ◼   ► makes a little bit more sense than the video streaming service.

00:57:03 ◼   ► So my generous take for Netflix would be they have no worlds to conquer.

00:57:11 ◼   ► Their enemies are, I mean, again, there are lots of streaming services out there, but

00:57:15 ◼   ► they're the big dog right now.

00:57:16 ◼   ► So it's like, okay, we got all the streaming service stuff.

00:57:19 ◼   ► What's our competition?

00:57:20 ◼   ► And they talked about this.

00:57:21 ◼   ► Our competition is people playing games, it's people not watching Netflix, right?

00:57:24 ◼   ► It's literally all other forms of life on the planet that aren't watching Netflix.

00:57:28 ◼   ► - We are competition for Netflix.

00:57:29 ◼   ► - We are absolutely.

00:57:30 ◼   ► - Anything that takes anybody's time is competition for Netflix.

00:57:33 ◼   ► - Exactly.

00:57:34 ◼   ► So from that perspective, I can see it.

00:57:36 ◼   ► I can also see it that they want to, they are running out of ways to make a Netflix

00:57:42 ◼   ► subscription more valuable.

00:57:45 ◼   ► - And they wanna keep increasing the price and they got to find reasons to do that.

00:57:48 ◼   ► - Absolutely, and there's Julia and I talked about this on our podcast downstream two weeks

00:57:53 ◼   ► ago, not the one that we're recording in two days, but the one we recorded 12 days ago,

00:57:57 ◼   ► fortnightly, how does it work?

00:58:00 ◼   ► And that was one of our reader questions was, how long can they, like, will there be a $40

00:58:06 ◼   ► Netflix account at some point, right?

00:58:08 ◼   ► How long can they raise it?

00:58:10 ◼   ► And you end up in a really weird position where there's two things.

00:58:12 ◼   ► They could do more of what they're doing now, which is sort of like premium, which is like

00:58:15 ◼   ► higher quality.

00:58:16 ◼   ► And you could do a Disney-esque thing where there's like premieres that you get sooner.

00:58:20 ◼   ► It's unclear if they wanna do that, but you know, the game thing gives them some options,

00:58:24 ◼   ► right?

00:58:25 ◼   ► The game thing allows them to maybe raise the price of a Netflix subscription, but then

00:58:29 ◼   ► offer a lower cost subscription that doesn't include games.

00:58:35 ◼   ► And then the game suddenly becomes an inducement to pay more.

00:58:38 ◼   ► Oh, you pay more and you get more.

00:58:40 ◼   ► Or maybe they break it out at some point and say, well, this is an additional revenue source.

00:58:44 ◼   ► We bundle these two things together, but if you just like games and you are in that in-app

00:58:48 ◼   ► purchase screen and you don't wanna sign up for Netflix, well, guess what?

00:58:52 ◼   ► We've got enough games now that we're gonna let you pay us $5 a month and play all of

00:58:55 ◼   ► our games, even though you don't get to watch the rest of Netflix.

00:58:59 ◼   ► Or maybe you only get like a little bit of Netflix.

00:59:01 ◼   ► Plus you get all of our games.

00:59:02 ◼   ► Like it gives them, the counterargument is it gives them more flexibility and it allows

00:59:08 ◼   ► them to raise their price.

00:59:09 ◼   ► And I get all of that, but there is also this scent of just the hubris of like, we must

00:59:16 ◼   ► find your eyeballs wherever they stray from Netflix and then bring them back to Netflix.

00:59:22 ◼   ► And that's why I'm skeptical unless they spend more money and get better games, that this

00:59:26 ◼   ► is actually a strategy that's gonna work for them.

00:59:28 ◼   ► But I understand maybe why they're doing it.

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01:01:27 ◼   ► Let's do some hashtag ask upgrade questions.

01:01:30 ◼   ► First one comes from Doug.

01:01:32 ◼   ► Do you do any home automation with sensors of any kind like door sensors or motion sensors?

01:01:39 ◼   ► For example, turning on and off lights when you enter a room.

01:01:42 ◼   ► Basically, when it comes to your home, how smart is too smart?

01:01:45 ◼   ► Well, I will point people, uh, if you are a, uh, six colors member and if you're not,

01:01:52 ◼   ► why aren't you to Dan Lauren's piece from last week about his sensors in his new house?

01:01:58 ◼   ► Uh, cause Dan has done this.

01:02:00 ◼   ► Uh, I'll also point you to ATP a couple of weeks ago where Marco talked about smart sensors

01:02:03 ◼   ► in his garage.

01:02:05 ◼   ► I don't have any smart sensors.

01:02:07 ◼   ► Um, I, there is like an occupancy sensor in my thermostat, but like basically I'm not

01:02:13 ◼   ► doing any animations based on, uh, sensors mostly because I work at home.

01:02:21 ◼   ► So I feel like there's a lot of automation that makes more sense if you leave and then

01:02:25 ◼   ► you come home, uh, then if you never leave home, which is me.

01:02:30 ◼   ► So I don't find a lot of value.

01:02:33 ◼   ► I've never had a use case where I'm like, well, wait a second.

01:02:35 ◼   ► I know how I can solve this is with a sensor.

01:02:38 ◼   ► Um, however, I have a smart lock and the smart lock has, uh, you can automate based on the

01:02:45 ◼   ► state of the smart lock.

01:02:47 ◼   ► And one thing that I did set up at some point is an automation, uh, that if the smart lock

01:02:54 ◼   ► unlocks after it's late, it's like after 11 PM or something, it turns on the front of

01:03:04 ◼   ► the house light, uh, outside and in.

01:03:08 ◼   ► And the idea there is especially true when I had a, uh, uh, senior in high school while

01:03:13 ◼   ► I do again now, but, uh, he doesn't have a car.

01:03:15 ◼   ► Uh, when my daughter was a senior in high school and then, uh, when she was back with

01:03:19 ◼   ► us, you know, she would be out late or sometimes we would be out late and we would be coming

01:03:24 ◼   ► back from somewhere and it's dark.

01:03:27 ◼   ► And uh, ideally your phone auto unlocks the front door, which is great.

01:03:33 ◼   ► So I set up an automation where when the door unlocks late at night, the lights come on.

01:03:38 ◼   ► So you can see, which is very convenient.

01:03:41 ◼   ► Indoor outdoor lights, both, both, both.

01:03:44 ◼   ► It's the lights in the living room, which are the lights that I have on a smart, uh,

01:03:47 ◼   ► it's a Casita switch and it's the front lights outside in the house.

01:03:53 ◼   ► And so ideally if you pull up in your car and the smart lock sees that you're, you're

01:03:58 ◼   ► back and it unlocks the door, uh, but even if you have to put in the code on the door,

01:04:04 ◼   ► it will, when it unlocks the automation fires off and the lights come on.

01:04:07 ◼   ► And that's, that's, I wouldn't say it's a must have, but it's always been a kind of

01:04:11 ◼   ► nice little convenience that it knows that somebody's there and that it's dark out and

01:04:16 ◼   ► that it's late, so late that the lights are all out.

01:04:19 ◼   ► And so I'm going to turn those lights on as a, uh, as a, a help to that person who is

01:04:24 ◼   ► stumbling in at midnight or whenever.

01:04:28 ◼   ► The majority of my smart home stuff is the studio.

01:04:33 ◼   ► In our home home, we just have Hue lights.

01:04:34 ◼   ► That's it.

01:04:35 ◼   ► Um, but at the studio I have a bunch of things, you know, I have Hue lights and I have, uh,

01:04:41 ◼   ► uh, Eve radiator control things and I have, uh, um, ring security stuff and all that.

01:04:50 ◼   ► Now I can't currently get all of this to talk together.

01:04:53 ◼   ► Um, I, I'm looking forward to matter because hopefully I can get my ring gear to talk to

01:04:58 ◼   ► home kit in some way, you know, like maybe if you opened the door, cause I have sensors

01:05:04 ◼   ► on the door, it would turn on the lights, you know, like that would be nice.

01:05:07 ◼   ► Right.

01:05:08 ◼   ► So maybe in the future.

01:05:10 ◼   ► Right now, all I'm doing is just the, the geo location stuff that is built into home

01:05:15 ◼   ► kit.

01:05:16 ◼   ► So as I'm walking, as I basically, every time I get to the studio, my Hue lights are always

01:05:20 ◼   ► on and which is happening automatically.

01:05:23 ◼   ► And also it knows that you're close.

01:05:25 ◼   ► It knows I'm close.

01:05:26 ◼   ► And, and that's nice.

01:05:27 ◼   ► I also have one which is a, if Myke forgets thing, which is turns off the radiators and

01:05:33 ◼   ► the lights after like sundown if I've left the radius.

01:05:39 ◼   ► So yeah, and I like that.

01:05:41 ◼   ► They're good.

01:05:42 ◼   ► Just in general, I really like home kit stuff.

01:05:44 ◼   ► I like that I can turn on like my radiators to heat up the studio, uh, when I'm on my

01:05:50 ◼   ► way to the studio, like stuff like that.

01:05:52 ◼   ► It's just like, I really like all of that stuff.

01:05:54 ◼   ► Um, and I genuinely like, I cannot wait for this matter thing.

01:06:00 ◼   ► So there is a more possibility of me being able to feel like I can freely add more to

01:06:05 ◼   ► the studio without increasing my level of complication and having to download a bunch

01:06:10 ◼   ► of really weird applications to get it all to work.

01:06:13 ◼   ► Like I genuinely think that once they get this stuff working together properly, all

01:06:17 ◼   ► of this is just going to become so much more powerful and more simple.

01:06:20 ◼   ► Oh yeah.

01:06:21 ◼   ► And I, um, I agree.

01:06:24 ◼   ► I have thought about doing occupancy sensors and the problem with occupancy and motion

01:06:29 ◼   ► sensors is you end up in that.

01:06:32 ◼   ► I mean, a lot of listeners have probably been in this with a regular non-smart versions

01:06:35 ◼   ► of this, but you end up doing your job and the lights go out and then you have to like

01:06:40 ◼   ► flail around with your arms to make the lights come back on because you were sitting too

01:06:44 ◼   ► still and so that it decided that you weren't there.

01:06:47 ◼   ► We have an occupancy sensor in our kids' bathroom and when they would, they would be younger

01:06:53 ◼   ► and they're like taking baths and stuff, uh, and the lights would go out and we'd be like,

01:06:59 ◼   ► we'd be waving our arms to get the lights to come back on.

01:07:04 ◼   ► And that's just my, always been my experience with occupancy sensors is that, uh, you end

01:07:08 ◼   ► up moving enough.

01:07:09 ◼   ► I've always loved the idea of them.

01:07:11 ◼   ► I've never had a good experience with them.

01:07:13 ◼   ► No, no, definitely not.

01:07:14 ◼   ► It's better for something where it's like you roll up to the front door and the light

01:07:17 ◼   ► comes on.

01:07:18 ◼   ► Right.

01:07:19 ◼   ► I totally get that.

01:07:20 ◼   ► Um, so yeah, but I, I'm optimistic about home kit stuff.

01:07:23 ◼   ► I think it's getting better, but I am also a believer, a real believer in the fact that

01:07:28 ◼   ► you need to move past the, uh, again, they talked about this on ATP a couple of weeks

01:07:35 ◼   ► ago, but yeah, you need to move past the, uh, it's so complicated that you have to be

01:07:40 ◼   ► an expert or use a special device in order to use it kind of phase.

01:07:45 ◼   ► And, and you have to have it be that you can have, it's not just the bulb, but like the

01:07:50 ◼   ► switch, uh, that knows.

01:07:53 ◼   ► And that's why I like the Lutron Casita stuff is that I, it's a switch, which means that

01:07:58 ◼   ► if you don't know anything about home kit, you just press the button and the lights come

01:08:02 ◼   ► on.

01:08:03 ◼   ► And that is super important.

01:08:05 ◼   ► Uh, cause the early home stuff was not for regular people.

01:08:11 ◼   ► And like people get confused about my lock, which even before it was a smart lock, cause

01:08:15 ◼   ► it's a deadbolt and the, and people don't understand you have to unlock the door in

01:08:19 ◼   ► order to leave.

01:08:20 ◼   ► There's no lock on the latch.

01:08:22 ◼   ► It's all, it's a separate deadbolt.

01:08:24 ◼   ► And like, that's not even that complicated and people don't understand it.

01:08:28 ◼   ► Then we have to tell them how to do it.

01:08:29 ◼   ► So, uh, it can get really complicated more than people want really fast.

01:08:35 ◼   ► So it's gotta be more solid and more normal and really like behave like a normal thing,

01:08:41 ◼   ► but also be smart.

01:08:42 ◼   ► Uh, that's where we need to get and we're not quite there yet.

01:08:44 ◼   ► Yeah.

01:08:45 ◼   ► When, you know, like we're hoping to move maybe next year, like obviously we're going

01:08:49 ◼   ► to start the process of it.

01:08:50 ◼   ► And I think stuff like this, I want to integrate as well as the Hue bulbs.

01:08:53 ◼   ► Like I really love Hue bulbs.

01:08:55 ◼   ► I like the lamps cause we have the color ones and we like to change color and stuff like

01:08:58 ◼   ► that.

01:08:59 ◼   ► Like it's just a thing that we enjoy.

01:09:02 ◼   ► And most of the time at home, uh, we just use the lamps that have Hue bulbs in them

01:09:06 ◼   ► because it gives us more than enough light.

01:09:08 ◼   ► But if we had a bigger place or if we were maybe doing it over, I would maybe also look

01:09:12 ◼   ► at, all right, let's just change the switches.

01:09:15 ◼   ► But it's just too late in the game for us now in our apartment.

01:09:19 ◼   ► But I think I would want to do some of this stuff as well as all of the other stuff.

01:09:23 ◼   ► Um, it like home automation is really interesting to me, but even though it's been around for

01:09:30 ◼   ► so long, it really does feel like it's just kind of getting started in a strange way,

01:09:36 ◼   ► but we'll see.

01:09:37 ◼   ► Uh, Neil asks, did you guys buy the 14 or 16 inch Mac book pro?

01:09:42 ◼   ► I'm having a hard time deciding.

01:09:46 ◼   ► I didn't buy one.

01:09:47 ◼   ► I know.

01:09:48 ◼   ► But so the thing was, I know you didn't buy one.

01:09:50 ◼   ► I know you have the 14 and I have the 14 and we said it, but I wanted to, I wanted to,

01:09:53 ◼   ► to make a point here, which is why I wanted to have a question, which is my same point

01:09:58 ◼   ► for iPads, like the 11 inch older 12.9.

01:10:02 ◼   ► If you do not know which one you want, you want the small one because the 16 inch Mac

01:10:10 ◼   ► book pro and the 12.9 inch iPad are massive for their product classes and they are unwieldy

01:10:18 ◼   ► in their product classes.

01:10:20 ◼   ► And I feel like you only want the biggest something if you already know what you need

01:10:25 ◼   ► it for.

01:10:26 ◼   ► I feel like unless you have a specific use case that requires the 16 inch Mac book pro

01:10:31 ◼   ► or the 12.9 inch iPad pro, unless you know what that is, that's not the one you want.

01:10:38 ◼   ► I'll take it a little further with the 16 inch having not held one only.

01:10:41 ◼   ► I can only imagine it compared to the 14 inch.

01:10:44 ◼   ► I feel like if you want, um, if you want to use it as a, mostly as a desktop and you want

01:10:54 ◼   ► to use that big screen, but you're not planning on traveling around that much with it, then

01:10:58 ◼   ► I think it's fine.

01:11:00 ◼   ► Um, if you're a little more reluctant of a laptop traveler, but if you are, um, more

01:11:06 ◼   ► going to travel with it, I think generally just go with the smaller one.

01:11:10 ◼   ► Like I appreciate that it's a bigger screen, but that's, I, I, I've always been skeptical

01:11:16 ◼   ► of those enormous laptops.

01:11:17 ◼   ► You really need, like you said, you really need to have a use case for it.

01:11:20 ◼   ► What did they, the old 17 I think used to be called a lunch tray.

01:11:24 ◼   ► Is that right?

01:11:25 ◼   ► I think cafeteria tray.

01:11:26 ◼   ► Absolutely.

01:11:27 ◼   ► There's the one.

01:11:29 ◼   ► And Chris asks, are you using the new Safari start page features?

01:11:34 ◼   ► If so, which?

01:11:35 ◼   ► I'm loving reading list and using it in place of bookmarks instead.

01:11:39 ◼   ► Am I really using any, I I've got shared with you on there because every now and then there's

01:11:43 ◼   ► somebody sends me a link and I'm like, Oh yeah, that link.

01:11:46 ◼   ► And it's insured with you.

01:11:47 ◼   ► But otherwise pretty much no.

01:11:51 ◼   ► I like that I can customize what's there.

01:11:54 ◼   ► Um, I'm having a weird thing of my iPad mini that it is not showing me like, uh, frequently

01:12:00 ◼   ► visited even though I've turned it on.

01:12:02 ◼   ► Like it won't show me, which I find really strange.

01:12:04 ◼   ► All my other devices have no problem with it.

01:12:07 ◼   ► I also like that I can reorganize like where they show up in the list.

01:12:13 ◼   ► Yes.

01:12:14 ◼   ► Agreed.

01:12:15 ◼   ► I'm not using my own background image and I'm not using any of the like extensions that

01:12:18 ◼   ► you can use for this stuff now.

01:12:20 ◼   ► You know, like it's actually possible for somebody to give you an extension that customizes

01:12:24 ◼   ► that.

01:12:25 ◼   ► I'm not doing any of that either, but I like that I can customize it because I can get

01:12:28 ◼   ► rid of reading lists cause I never use it.

01:12:30 ◼   ► I don't need bookmarks because I don't have them right.

01:12:33 ◼   ► Like I, I, I have the things that I want.

01:12:35 ◼   ► I can have shared with you, but I can deprioritize it a little bit like, and you know, cause

01:12:39 ◼   ► I like iCloud tabs more, right?

01:12:42 ◼   ► Like you've got something open on another device, even though I'm using that less now

01:12:45 ◼   ► because I'm big tab group boy, love my tab groups.

01:12:49 ◼   ► But yeah, I like that they've added more there and I would be keen actually if any upgrade

01:12:53 ◼   ► ends are using them, really enjoying some of these like third party stock page things,

01:12:59 ◼   ► you can send them to me.

01:13:00 ◼   ► I want to see what they're all about.

01:13:02 ◼   ► So you can just tweet them at me if you want to.

01:13:05 ◼   ► If you'd like to send in a question for us to answer on the show, just send out a tweet

01:13:08 ◼   ► with the hashtag ask upgrade or use question Mark, ask upgrade in the relay FM members

01:13:12 ◼   ► discord, which you can get access to.

01:13:14 ◼   ► If you sign up for upgrade plus go to get upgrade plus.com and you'll get longer ad

01:13:18 ◼   ► free episodes of upgrade every single week.

01:13:22 ◼   ► If you want to find Jason online, you can go to six colors.com and the incomparable.com.

01:13:27 ◼   ► Jason also hosts a bunch of shows here at relay FM as do I, you can go to relay.fm/shows

01:13:31 ◼   ► and maybe find something new to pick out.

01:13:34 ◼   ► Jason is at J Snell on Twitter.

01:13:36 ◼   ► I am at I Myke I M Y K E. Thank you to Bombas, Capital One and Setapp for their support of

01:13:42 ◼   ► this show.

01:13:43 ◼   ► But most of all, thank you for listening.

01:13:45 ◼   ► We'll be back next week.

01:13:47 ◼   ► Until then, say goodbye Jason Snell.

01:13:48 ◼   ► Goodbye, Myke Hurley.

01:13:49 ◼   ► [Music]

01:13:55 ◼   ► [BLANK_AUDIO]