Upgrade

00:00:00 ◼   ► [Music]

00:00:08 ◼   ► From Relay FM, this is Upgrade, episode 385. Today's show is brought to you by Unipizza Ovens,

00:00:15 ◼   ► DoorDash, and Setapp. My name is Myke Hurley, and I'm joined by Jason Snow. Hi, Jason Snow.

00:00:20 ◼   ► Hi, Myke Hurley. Welcome back to Upgrade, a podcast you host with me every week.

00:00:25 ◼   ► I do. Yep.

00:00:26 ◼   ► When you're not gone.

00:00:27 ◼   ► There are thereabouts. I have a #snowtalk question for you that comes from Ryan.

00:00:32 ◼   ► Ryan wants to know, "Do you have family members that listen to your podcasts?"

00:00:35 ◼   ► [Laughter]

00:00:37 ◼   ► >> MATT, "Ryan, no. Nobody in my family listens. Actually, that's not true. I have my...

00:00:48 ◼   ► I mean, he's my brother-in-law, but just to elaborate, my sister-in-law, my wife's sister's

00:00:56 ◼   ► husband listens to Total Party Kill. I'm not sure he listens to The Incomparable, but he

00:01:03 ◼   ► listens to Total Party Kill because he will comment about that. It's very nice. He'll

00:01:07 ◼   ► say nice things about it. I'm sure he's listening to a million D&D podcasts, but he says nice

00:01:10 ◼   ► things about it. That's it. That's it. My family is not interested nor understands anything

00:01:16 ◼   ► that I do. Although I will say as a sidelight, my in-laws, Lauren's parents, read the Six

00:01:26 ◼   ► colors newsletter every week so every time I write something on six dollars

00:01:31 ◼   ► I'm sort of thinking about how my mother-in-law is gonna read this so

00:01:34 ◼   ► that's yeah it's in there so you got okay you got that part I had that thing

00:01:39 ◼   ► where I had to try and work out wife's sister's brother you know like it's a

00:01:45 ◼   ► brother-in-law but no wife wife's sister's husband that's what I meant

00:01:48 ◼   ► wife's sister's husband yeah he's a brother-in-law but it's two two

00:01:52 ◼   ► marriages linked there. Yeah, interesting. Only my wife, Adina, listens to my shows, I think.

00:01:59 ◼   ► I think my younger brother sometimes listens to this show and remaster, like, on occasion.

00:02:05 ◼   ► Like, he'll go for long stretches of time not mentioning that he ever does, and then he'll say

00:02:09 ◼   ► something, "Oh, I heard you say that in such and such places. It's difficult for me to know." But

00:02:14 ◼   ► I know Adina listens, but that's it for me. Well, that's very nice of her. I think so. She listens

00:02:20 ◼   ► to this show, which I appreciate.

00:02:23 ◼   ► - That's great.

00:02:25 ◼   ► Hi, Adina, thank you for listening.

00:02:26 ◼   ► - If you'd like to send in a Snow Talk question of your own,

00:02:29 ◼   ► you can send it in over Twitter with the hashtag SnowTalk

00:02:32 ◼   ► or in the Relay FM members Discord,

00:02:34 ◼   ► with question mark SnowTalk.

00:02:36 ◼   ► I have a couple of things of note

00:02:38 ◼   ► and then we've got a lot of follow up to get to today.

00:02:41 ◼   ► First up, the Upgradies nominations are open,

00:02:44 ◼   ► so go to Upgradies.vote.

00:02:47 ◼   ► The nominations are going to be closing on the 21st of December, so if you want to get

00:02:52 ◼   ► your voice heard, you can go to the upgradeers. You don't need to vote in every category,

00:02:56 ◼   ► if that's intimidating to you when you go to the voting list. You can just nominate

00:03:00 ◼   ► for the things that you want and get them in, and you may help us with the upgradeers

00:03:05 ◼   ► for this year.

00:03:06 ◼   ► Yeah, it's not just about getting your voice heard and voting. It's also helping us, so

00:03:12 ◼   ► We appreciate the help and remind us who we have forgotten

00:03:15 ◼   ► most of what happened this year.

00:03:18 ◼   ► So please remind us.

00:03:19 ◼   ► - I skimmed through some of the nominations so far

00:03:23 ◼   ► and it already helped me make some adjustments

00:03:25 ◼   ► to my own potential pick list.

00:03:27 ◼   ► So thank you to that.

00:03:30 ◼   ► - It's very helpful.

00:03:30 ◼   ► I've looked in there too while you were gone.

00:03:33 ◼   ► I looked in there, I was assembling some lists

00:03:35 ◼   ► and I was like, let's see what the listeners suggested.

00:03:38 ◼   ► - Ah, see, I thought, okay.

00:03:41 ◼   ► So you did a, what was it like a Mac app pick?

00:03:44 ◼   ► Was it a Six Colors member thing?

00:03:46 ◼   ► - Six Colors, no, it's for everyone.

00:03:48 ◼   ► It's our favorite Mac apps of the year.

00:03:49 ◼   ► And we're gonna do some more lists of that.

00:03:51 ◼   ► And before I finished my list,

00:03:52 ◼   ► I went and looked at the upgrade list

00:03:54 ◼   ► and made sure that I had not forgotten some things.

00:03:57 ◼   ► - 'Cause it did make me wonder,

00:03:58 ◼   ► 'cause I know it's one that we have struggled with

00:04:00 ◼   ► in the past.

00:04:01 ◼   ► So I wondered if maybe you'd peaked.

00:04:03 ◼   ► You peaked in.

00:04:04 ◼   ► - I had, it didn't really prompt too much in that category.

00:04:07 ◼   ► It did, there were a couple other categories

00:04:08 ◼   ► that were really helpful

00:04:09 ◼   ► and reminding me about some iOS apps and things like,

00:04:11 ◼   ► "Was that this year? Wow, I guess it was. I'll put it in."

00:04:15 ◼   ► It was easier to come up with those lists anyway this year.

00:04:17 ◼   ► There was a lot more happening this year.

00:04:19 ◼   ► It was actually kind of nice.

00:04:20 ◼   ► But yes, please vote in the Upgrades

00:04:23 ◼   ► and help us remember things from 2021.

00:04:25 ◼   ► - Next week, unbelievably,

00:04:29 ◼   ► we're gonna be doing the Upgrade Holiday Special,

00:04:32 ◼   ► which I can't believe we're heartling

00:04:36 ◼   ► towards the end of the year.

00:04:37 ◼   ► - I know, get your ugly sweater ready.

00:04:39 ◼   ► I know, so we want to do some holiday Ask Upgrade next time.

00:04:43 ◼   ► That's going to be our holiday special theme,

00:04:46 ◼   ► because I was away, and we didn't really have much time

00:04:49 ◼   ► to plan anything else.

00:04:50 ◼   ► So we'll do a regular episode, but we'll

00:04:52 ◼   ► do a double Ask Upgrade segment.

00:04:54 ◼   ► And so we would like your holiday questions for that.

00:04:57 ◼   ► So question mark Ask Upgrade in the Discord,

00:05:00 ◼   ► hashtag Ask Upgrade on Twitter.

00:05:01 ◼   ► Please send us in your holiday questions for our next Ask

00:05:05 ◼   ► Upgrade segment.

00:05:06 ◼   ► We would appreciate it.

00:05:07 ◼   ► Do you want to tell the listeners what you did?

00:05:11 ◼   ► - Yeah, okay.

00:05:13 ◼   ► You make it sound a little bit like I committed a crime.

00:05:15 ◼   ► I did not commit a crime.

00:05:16 ◼   ► I did a nice thing.

00:05:17 ◼   ► - No, but you did do something.

00:05:18 ◼   ► Well, it's not completely nice.

00:05:21 ◼   ► (laughing)

00:05:21 ◼   ► - Yeah, it's half nice, half good.

00:05:24 ◼   ► And I would say also inspired by Connected.

00:05:29 ◼   ► So somewhat theft there.

00:05:36 ◼   ► - Yeah. - So,

00:05:38 ◼   ► people who don't listen to "Connected",

00:05:41 ◼   ► what's wrong with you, but you may not know that that show,

00:05:43 ◼   ► which is full of japery and hilarity,

00:05:46 ◼   ► has a contest that, I mean, it all comes around again,

00:05:50 ◼   ► 'cause we started doing the upgrade draft,

00:05:52 ◼   ► and then came the rookies,

00:05:53 ◼   ► a competition based on Apple events

00:05:55 ◼   ► that's different from the draft,

00:05:57 ◼   ► in that it has a complicated rule set and point structure,

00:06:01 ◼   ► and there's a lot of adjudication,

00:06:02 ◼   ► and there's a lot of things going on, but-

00:06:04 ◼   ► - Really it's just a peacocking contest ultimately.

00:06:07 ◼   ► - It is, there's a lot that's, well Federico,

00:06:11 ◼   ► he is really interesting and competitive about that show.

00:06:15 ◼   ► It's hilarious.

00:06:16 ◼   ► Anyway, but out of the Ricky's came the trophy,

00:06:21 ◼   ► the tricky trophy, which is this amazing thing

00:06:27 ◼   ► that listener Matt made out of wood.

00:06:31 ◼   ► that is, and it's got like little plastic sheets

00:06:35 ◼   ► and it replicates the connected logo,

00:06:38 ◼   ► but it's got like little marks for where the current annual

00:06:42 ◼   ► and keynote champions reside among the three of you.

00:06:46 ◼   ► It's beautiful.

00:06:48 ◼   ► And I gotta be honest, I was jealous.

00:06:50 ◼   ► I was like, why does the upgrade draft

00:06:54 ◼   ► not have a similar trophy for whoever is the champion?

00:07:01 ◼   ► And I was trying to think about how we could do this

00:07:06 ◼   ► because there would need to be two,

00:07:10 ◼   ► one for you and one for me,

00:07:12 ◼   ► and they would need two different states

00:07:15 ◼   ► where you won the draft or you lost the draft.

00:07:19 ◼   ► And I looked up at my walls where I have,

00:07:23 ◼   ► so when I was a kid, I had two felt pennants,

00:07:26 ◼   ► which are these little sort of triangular things

00:07:28 ◼   ► that you're supposed to put on like a stick

00:07:29 ◼   ► and back in like, I don't know, the seventies or whatever,

00:07:32 ◼   ► and wave at the sporting event with the color of your team.

00:07:36 ◼   ► But I had two of them and I had them on my walls

00:07:39 ◼   ► of my house and of my room in my house as a kid.

00:07:43 ◼   ► And one of them is lost to history.

00:07:44 ◼   ► The other one is actually on my wall in my office.

00:07:47 ◼   ► It's the San Francisco Giants Candlestick Park pennant

00:07:50 ◼   ► that I had when I was like nine and I still have it.

00:07:54 ◼   ► And then I've got another one that's the same size

00:07:55 ◼   ► and shape above it that is for the three World Series

00:07:58 ◼   ► the Giants one. It's great. It's fun. And I looked at it and I thought, hey, what about

00:08:02 ◼   ► a championship pennant for upgrade? But again, how do we handle the fact that one of us is

00:08:09 ◼   ► the champion and the other one is not at any given time? And then it hit me, what if I

00:08:15 ◼   ► got a reversible felt pennant? And so that's what I did. I actually went, I designed it

00:08:22 ◼   ► in Affinity Designer and I found a person who makes custom pennants on Etsy. And I asked

00:08:28 ◼   ► her if she could do a two-sided custom pendant with it's in upgrade gray and then on it there

00:08:34 ◼   ► is the upgrade logo on the front and around the upgrade logo it says upgrade draft and

00:08:41 ◼   ► then in large letters it says champion and I thought okay that's great what about on

00:08:48 ◼   ► the other side though what's the what's the side that you know do I want to have it be

00:08:52 ◼   ► like loser and I consulted with Stephen Hackett about this we went through several different

00:08:57 ◼   ► iterations.

00:08:58 ◼   ► - Loser sucks 'cause you would have to have just

00:09:01 ◼   ► the word loser on your wall.

00:09:04 ◼   ► - Until the next round.

00:09:05 ◼   ► And again, upgrade draft is a gentlemenly competition.

00:09:09 ◼   ► So what we settled on, and I did consult with Steven on this

00:09:15 ◼   ► is the upgrade logo is upside down on the loser side.

00:09:19 ◼   ► So it's pointing down to indicate sadness.

00:09:21 ◼   ► But it says challenger.

00:09:25 ◼   ► So that's the optimism it's right.

00:09:26 ◼   ► And you are now the challenger.

00:09:28 ◼   ► Someone's a champion, someone's the challenger every time.

00:09:31 ◼   ► And you are the challenger.

00:09:33 ◼   ► So that's what I did, and I got those, and I had one brought to you in California on

00:09:40 ◼   ► your way back to London.

00:09:43 ◼   ► And now we are both in possession with identical felt penance of the upgrade draft champion

00:09:48 ◼   ► and challenger for us to place somewhere in our workspaces in a position of honor, and

00:09:55 ◼   ► then of course honor being gentlemanly like by flipping it over if our status changes.

00:10:01 ◼   ► So that's that there you've got yours I've got mine and we now have the official upgrade

00:10:06 ◼   ► draft trophy which is the championship pennant.

00:10:09 ◼   ► I think this is very fun and I love that you did this and I enjoy very much I think you

00:10:14 ◼   ► did a good job with this. I think it's a fun thing and I genuinely appreciate that it says

00:10:20 ◼   ► challenger and not loser because I might be looking at the word challenger a lot prefer

00:10:24 ◼   ► that to loser.

00:10:26 ◼   ► Yeah, right. I feel like it's a, well, yes, of course. And I feel like that is in the

00:10:30 ◼   ► spirit of the, you know, you want it to be positive. You want it to be like, "Come on,

00:10:38 ◼   ► you can do better." So I'm looking, it was back in late October that I worked on this

00:10:44 ◼   ► with Steven. The other option that I gave him actually was, it says "champion" on one

00:10:51 ◼   ► side and on the other side it says "Champion" but above it it says "former".

00:10:58 ◼   ► That's also pretty good. That's also pretty good.

00:11:01 ◼   ► And he said "I think Challenger is better". I like the positivity, like it's the "I'll

00:11:05 ◼   ► get you next time" kind of thing. So anyway, that is now on the line for future, uh, future

00:11:12 ◼   ► upgrade drafts.

00:11:13 ◼   ► I'm gonna hang mine behind me, because I have these sound panels that go behind me, uh,

00:11:19 ◼   ► where I record from the studio and they like they have a kind of felty texture

00:11:26 ◼   ► to them so I think just a couple of pins will hold that up really nicely.

00:11:30 ◼   ► It's got the little streamers on the back so you can put like a little pin in one of

00:11:33 ◼   ► the streamers and then you can use a pin to like prop up the other corner and it works great.

00:11:37 ◼   ► It can't be permanently fixed unless I don't know one of us is particularly braggadocious.

00:11:43 ◼   ► No, you've got to be able to flip it. Yeah exactly you flip it right over and it goes from up to down

00:11:48 ◼   ► And then the great battle continues.

00:11:52 ◼   ► - It's very fun.

00:11:52 ◼   ► So today I think we have a pretty follow-up heavy episode

00:11:56 ◼   ► for a couple of reasons.

00:11:57 ◼   ► I have a bunch of things that I wanted to attribute

00:12:00 ◼   ► to last week's episode.

00:12:01 ◼   ► And also there's just been weirdly a lot of new news

00:12:06 ◼   ► about the same things that you and Dan were talking about

00:12:08 ◼   ► on last week's episode.

00:12:09 ◼   ► So that's funny for me when looking through

00:12:11 ◼   ► what I wanted to talk about today.

00:12:13 ◼   ► I would like to thank Dan Morin for stepping in

00:12:16 ◼   ► on last week's episode.

00:12:17 ◼   ► was a very fun show I've listened to over the last couple of days.

00:12:20 ◼   ► He hasn't done that before. I've had him on as a guest with Scoville Multi that I'm waiting

00:12:24 ◼   ► long, long, long ago. But since then, I haven't done it. And it was funny having somebody

00:12:29 ◼   ► who I do a podcast with every week. It was just easy to do in a way that it's... I definitely

00:12:37 ◼   ► make it harder for myself and stress myself out more when I've got like a very special

00:12:42 ◼   ► guest who hasn't been on before or who isn't a usual person I talked to, whether that was

00:12:46 ◼   ► as having Julia on or having Merlin and John Syracuse

00:12:50 ◼   ► on at various points.

00:12:51 ◼   ► Like I get worked up of like, oh, I gotta do this right

00:12:54 ◼   ► because this is very special and all that.

00:12:55 ◼   ► And not like talking to Dan isn't special, but it's like,

00:12:58 ◼   ► (laughing)

00:12:59 ◼   ► - Suck it Dan.

00:13:00 ◼   ► - It's like we do it.

00:13:02 ◼   ► It's just, we do it.

00:13:03 ◼   ► We were doing our thing and it just,

00:13:04 ◼   ► you fall into those rhythms and it was,

00:13:06 ◼   ► so what I'm saying is it was really nice to have him on

00:13:08 ◼   ► because I didn't feel any of that stress

00:13:10 ◼   ► and we just had a nice conversation.

00:13:11 ◼   ► It was great.

00:13:12 ◼   ► - No, it was really fun.

00:13:14 ◼   ► So I would like to just state that I do delete questions from our Google Sheets.

00:13:18 ◼   ► Okay.

00:13:19 ◼   ► So we have the Snell Talk and Ask Upgrade Questions.

00:13:22 ◼   ► So one, I delete them when they're used.

00:13:25 ◼   ► So I did go back into the Sheets and deleted all the questions you used.

00:13:28 ◼   ► Okay, thank you.

00:13:30 ◼   ► And I just straight up remove questions that we have no good answers for.

00:13:36 ◼   ► So every week I review the new stuff that's come in and remove the stuff that we use,

00:13:41 ◼   ► remove the stuff that I don't think we can use.

00:13:43 ◼   ► And I leave things in there. There are questions that I have gone back to like six months,

00:13:47 ◼   ► a year after they've been asked. One day I'll need them. And sometimes I get questions that

00:13:54 ◼   ► came in too late, but they could be used in a year from now. So, you know, they're all

00:13:59 ◼   ► in there. I have a plan. So for people wondering, "Oh, are all the questions left the bad questions?"

00:14:04 ◼   ► No, the bad questions are deleted.

00:14:06 ◼   ► It did look like you had a limit.

00:14:11 ◼   ► It looked like there were not questions

00:14:14 ◼   ► before a certain date in Ask Upgrade.

00:14:17 ◼   ► -Ah, see, this was a thing that happened.

00:14:19 ◼   ► So, the Snell Talk questions, they're all in there.

00:14:21 ◼   ► The Ask Upgrade questions, at one point,

00:14:24 ◼   ► I decided that I was going to use this system,

00:14:27 ◼   ► because previously, I wasn't deleting anything.

00:14:29 ◼   ► And then, at a certain point, I was like,

00:14:31 ◼   ► "All right, I need to start deleting these

00:14:32 ◼   ► because it's taken too long to load."

00:14:34 ◼   ► And so I just went to a certain point, I deleted all of the questions, and it just kept everything

00:14:39 ◼   ► and started filtering from there.

00:14:41 ◼   ► The beginning of 2020, it looks like, for Ask Upgrade.

00:14:43 ◼   ► Snell Talk, indeed the oldest question was from Graham in April of 2017 that I answered

00:14:50 ◼   ► last week, and I'm going to do you a favor, I'm going to delete that one right now.

00:14:54 ◼   ► Because that was a fine question.

00:14:55 ◼   ► There was nothing wrong with Graham's question, I just hadn't gone through it.

00:14:58 ◼   ► Asking me for my favorite law of physics, that's never going to get old.

00:15:01 ◼   ► That's a nevergreen question.

00:15:02 ◼   ► Except now that we've read it.

00:15:03 ◼   ► - Okay, all right.

00:15:05 ◼   ► - And I also have some comments on the Ask Upgrade questions

00:15:09 ◼   ► that were asked in the last week's episode.

00:15:12 ◼   ► - I just wanna say, I literally never look

00:15:14 ◼   ► in the Ask Upgrade or Snell Talk spreadsheets

00:15:16 ◼   ► because I wanna be surprised.

00:15:17 ◼   ► And so I legitimately didn't know the answer

00:15:20 ◼   ► when it was asked about how old they were.

00:15:22 ◼   ► And that episode yesterday, or last week,

00:15:25 ◼   ► was very much me

00:15:27 ◼   ► - Finding this out. - discovering with the listener

00:15:29 ◼   ► what was in those spreadsheets.

00:15:32 ◼   ► So you were talking about trackpads.

00:15:34 ◼   ► - Yes.

00:15:35 ◼   ► - And I am a trackpad person,

00:15:36 ◼   ► but I did just want to for people

00:15:37 ◼   ► that are not trackpad people,

00:15:39 ◼   ► 'cause you were talking about mices, mouses?

00:15:41 ◼   ► - Recommended mouse, yeah.

00:15:43 ◼   ► - Yeah, I wanted to recommend

00:15:44 ◼   ► what I think is the best mouse available,

00:15:47 ◼   ► for most people, which is the Logitech MX Master 3.

00:15:51 ◼   ► This is the mouse that I use, and I love this mouse.

00:15:54 ◼   ► But what I wanted to just suggest

00:15:56 ◼   ► when I make this recommendation

00:15:57 ◼   ► is that people do not buy the version

00:15:59 ◼   ► that is called Logitech MX Master for Mac.

00:16:02 ◼   ► Don't buy that one because it's just Bluetooth.

00:16:06 ◼   ► You wanna buy the regular one, the MX Master 3,

00:16:10 ◼   ► because then you get the choice of either Bluetooth

00:16:12 ◼   ► or the receiver that Logitech make.

00:16:14 ◼   ► And I recommend using the receiver.

00:16:17 ◼   ► The receiver is more reliable than Bluetooth, I find,

00:16:22 ◼   ► especially like with, I mean, with the original M1 Macs,

00:16:26 ◼   ► it was a nightmare with Bluetooth.

00:16:28 ◼   ► but if you're using the unifying receiver it wasn't a problem

00:16:30 ◼   ► but I think the little unifying receiver is better

00:16:33 ◼   ► but it also has bluetooth in it

00:16:35 ◼   ► but the one they sell for the Mac doesn't

00:16:37 ◼   ► and I don't know why because Logitech

00:16:39 ◼   ► make the software for the Mac

00:16:42 ◼   ► for the unifying receiver

00:16:44 ◼   ► so I don't know why the Mac one

00:16:48 ◼   ► has no receiver but that's just the way that they do it

00:16:52 ◼   ► but that's why I wanted to recommend the Logitech MX Master 3

00:16:57 ◼   ► because I think it is my favorite mouse.

00:16:59 ◼   ► It's a very good mouse.

00:17:00 ◼   ► I have two printers.

00:17:02 ◼   ► They are both Epson printers.

00:17:05 ◼   ► - Is one at the house and one at the office?

00:17:07 ◼   ► - Yes, but the one at the studio,

00:17:08 ◼   ► it's the only reason I'm going to mention it.

00:17:10 ◼   ► The one at the studio is an A3 printer and it's massive.

00:17:14 ◼   ► It is the WF7840 by Epson.

00:17:19 ◼   ► - So if I remember my gray videos correctly,

00:17:23 ◼   ► A3 is twice the size of A4,

00:17:25 ◼   ► which is sort of your version of our letter paper.

00:17:28 ◼   ► - Wait, yeah, A4 is letter paper, yes,

00:17:32 ◼   ► and WF-8470 is for A3, which is, no, 7840.

00:17:37 ◼   ► I'm horrifically jet-lagged at the moment,

00:17:42 ◼   ► so I'm reading things incorrectly,

00:17:44 ◼   ► which is kind of hilarious.

00:17:45 ◼   ► I just read four numbers in the exact wrong order.

00:17:47 ◼   ► - Oh, okay, so an A3 printer, though,

00:17:49 ◼   ► that's what we would call probably tabloid size.

00:17:52 ◼   ► This is actually the size of my college newspaper.

00:17:54 ◼   ► It's in the US tablet sizes, I think 11 by 17.

00:17:59 ◼   ► Yours is basically 11 3/4.

00:18:01 ◼   ► For those who are not in UK paper sizes,

00:18:04 ◼   ► 11 3/4 inches by 16 and a half.

00:18:05 ◼   ► - The paper sizes are not UK paper sizes.

00:18:08 ◼   ► They are international.

00:18:09 ◼   ► - Okay, whatever.

00:18:10 ◼   ► - Just so you know, you know,

00:18:11 ◼   ► I just wanna make, this isn't a me problem.

00:18:14 ◼   ► - 297 millimeters by 420 millimeters.

00:18:17 ◼   ► - I really like the way you say that.

00:18:19 ◼   ► - Meters for those using the foreign concept

00:18:22 ◼   ► of the UK concept of a millimeter.

00:18:25 ◼   ► - Millimeter sounds like a character in a kid's TV show.

00:18:30 ◼   ► - Oh yeah, about the metric system.

00:18:32 ◼   ► - Yes.

00:18:33 ◼   ► - Hey everybody, it's Millimeter.

00:18:35 ◼   ► Millie, you've grown several inches.

00:18:37 ◼   ► Actually, I've grown centimeters.

00:18:40 ◼   ► - That's good.

00:18:40 ◼   ► - That's how that goes.

00:18:42 ◼   ► Okay.

00:18:42 ◼   ► - So yeah, I have two printers, one's a really big one.

00:18:45 ◼   ► And I have tap to click on, we spoke about this before,

00:18:50 ◼   ► I use both.

00:18:51 ◼   ► I'm primarily an actual click person, if you'd call it that.

00:18:54 ◼   ► I don't know what the phrase would be,

00:18:55 ◼   ► but I like to have a tap to click as a fallback.

00:18:59 ◼   ► I did think Dan was really weird about like,

00:19:02 ◼   ► I tap to click for certain tasks

00:19:04 ◼   ► because I don't feel like I'm committing.

00:19:06 ◼   ► I found that, I was like,

00:19:08 ◼   ► that is a really weird thing to say.

00:19:10 ◼   ► - Sometimes you wanna click a little bit less.

00:19:13 ◼   ► And for that, you tap the click instead.

00:19:15 ◼   ► - I don't wanna fully commit to this click.

00:19:18 ◼   ► - It's like a half click.

00:19:19 ◼   ► Maybe it'll be a click.

00:19:20 ◼   ► And like I said in that segment about how I discovered

00:19:23 ◼   ► when using non-Apple trackpads

00:19:24 ◼   ► that I have all sorts of these gestures,

00:19:26 ◼   ► which again, I have built up over decades

00:19:29 ◼   ► and didn't realize I was doing until I was called

00:19:33 ◼   ► to consider it by the fact that suddenly

00:19:37 ◼   ► nothing was working right.

00:19:38 ◼   ► And I had to like take a video of my hands on the trackpad

00:19:42 ◼   ► and discovered that old PowerBook design decisions

00:19:46 ◼   ► still affect how I use a trackpad to this day.

00:19:49 ◼   ► It's only at that point that I realized that my fingers

00:19:52 ◼   ► are doing lots of weird things on the trackpad.

00:19:53 ◼   ► And that's probably why I don't like tap to click

00:19:56 ◼   ► is because my fingers are probably tapping in various places

00:20:00 ◼   ► that the standard trackpad with tap to click turnoff ignores,

00:20:04 ◼   ► but that tap to click recognizes,

00:20:07 ◼   ► and that's why I have to turn off tap to click.

00:20:09 ◼   ► - So thus concludes my comments on last week's episode.

00:20:14 ◼   ► - Oh, thank you.

00:20:15 ◼   ► And you seem to enjoy it.

00:20:17 ◼   ► Do you have a little out of body experience

00:20:18 ◼   ► when upgrade happens and you're not on it?

00:20:20 ◼   ► - It is weird. - Weird?

00:20:22 ◼   ► - I mean, it's weirder for another reason,

00:20:24 ◼   ► but that's an Ask Upgrade question for later on

00:20:26 ◼   ► in the show today. - Okay, all right.

00:20:29 ◼   ► - This episode is brought to you by our friends

00:20:31 ◼   ► over at DoorDash.

00:20:33 ◼   ► Hey, look, did you forget that one thing at the store?

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00:20:48 ◼   ► Ordering is super easy for anything.

00:20:49 ◼   ► You open the DoorDash app, you choose what you want from where you want it,

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00:20:58 ◼   ► DoorDash have over 300,000 partners in the US, Puerto Rico, Canada, and Australia.

00:21:04 ◼   ► And you can support your neighborhood go-tos or choose from your favorite

00:21:07 ◼   ► national restaurant chains like Popeyes, Chipotle, and the Cheesecake Factory.

00:21:11 ◼   ► Now, Jason, this is usually the part where I say, "Hey, Jason,

00:21:14 ◼   ► tell me something about DoorDash."

00:21:16 ◼   ► But Jason, I can tell you something about DoorDash today.

00:21:19 ◼   ► - Please do.

00:21:19 ◼   ► - Because I just got back from the US.

00:21:22 ◼   ► - Yes.

00:21:22 ◼   ► - And at one point during our trip,

00:21:24 ◼   ► we were moving around a bit.

00:21:25 ◼   ► We got to, we stayed in LA

00:21:27 ◼   ► and we got there pretty late in the evening

00:21:29 ◼   ► and we didn't wanna go out to eat.

00:21:31 ◼   ► So I thought, I know what I can do.

00:21:35 ◼   ► I opened the DoorDash app. - You've heard the ads

00:21:35 ◼   ► on Upgrade, the popular program.

00:21:36 ◼   ► - I've heard these ads before, I've heard them.

00:21:39 ◼   ► And so I opened up the DoorDash app,

00:21:41 ◼   ► I looked about for what was around

00:21:42 ◼   ► and we just wanted something simple.

00:21:44 ◼   ► And so we just were able to order in some cheeseburgers

00:21:47 ◼   ► and some fries and some chicken nuggets very easily

00:21:51 ◼   ► from DoorDash and it just arrived in like minutes.

00:21:54 ◼   ► It was so good.

00:21:55 ◼   ► - So when you get cheeseburgers, fries and chicken nuggets,

00:21:57 ◼   ► are you getting it from like popular fast food restaurants

00:21:59 ◼   ► or was there like a nicer, higher quality place

00:22:03 ◼   ► that you got them from?

00:22:04 ◼   ► - It was a popular fast food restaurant.

00:22:06 ◼   ► - Popular fast food restaurant.

00:22:07 ◼   ► All right, well see, that shows you

00:22:09 ◼   ► how many different options you have on DoorDash.

00:22:10 ◼   ► You could have gone for like the Burger Bistro.

00:22:14 ◼   ► - You could have.

00:22:15 ◼   ► - Or you could have gone to Johnny O'Burger

00:22:17 ◼   ► and you know, you chose.

00:22:19 ◼   ► - We went for Johnny O'Burger, that's well known.

00:22:21 ◼   ► No, we just wanted something simple and reliable.

00:22:24 ◼   ► And so it's just like we just go for a chain.

00:22:26 ◼   ► - And to bring to you in your hotel room.

00:22:28 ◼   ► - Uh-huh, right to, I had them come to the lobby,

00:22:31 ◼   ► I went and met them in the lobby,

00:22:33 ◼   ► really easy, very happy, super simple.

00:22:36 ◼   ► For a limited time, listeners of this show, including me,

00:22:38 ◼   ► can get 25% off and zero delivery fees

00:22:42 ◼   ► on their first order of $15 or more.

00:22:44 ◼   ► - Didn't, you didn't. - I used the code.

00:22:45 ◼   ► - You used the upgrade code?

00:22:47 ◼   ► - Of course I used the code.

00:22:48 ◼   ► - I love it. - Why wouldn't I?

00:22:49 ◼   ► I was a new customer.

00:22:50 ◼   ► I wanted 25% off and zero delivery fees

00:22:52 ◼   ► on my first order of $15 or more.

00:22:55 ◼   ► So when you download the DoorDash app,

00:22:57 ◼   ► enter the code upgrade 2021 in the US, which I was,

00:23:00 ◼   ► or upgrade a US if you're in Australia, which I wasn't.

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00:23:06 ◼   ► and zero delivery fees in your first order.

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00:23:25 ◼   ► Our thanks to DoorDash for their support

00:23:26 ◼   ► of this show and Relay FM.

00:23:28 ◼   ► So a friend of the show, Min-Chi Kuo,

00:23:30 ◼   ► had a couple of reports about the Apple headset.

00:23:34 ◼   ► This is what I've decided to just call this from now on

00:23:37 ◼   ► rather than saying the Apple AR, VR,

00:23:39 ◼   ► like just Apple headset that will work for us

00:23:42 ◼   ► for the time being.

00:23:43 ◼   ► So a couple of reports, one suggesting that the tracking

00:23:47 ◼   ► of hand gestures and movements is going to be

00:23:50 ◼   ► the primary interaction method for this device

00:23:54 ◼   ► with four sets of 3D sensors to be used to detect this.

00:23:58 ◼   ► In total, Apple will detect, quote from Min-Chi Kuo,

00:24:01 ◼   ► gesture control, object detection,

00:24:03 ◼   ► as well as eye tracking, iris recognition, voice control,

00:24:07 ◼   ► Skin detection, expression detection,

00:24:11 ◼   ► and spatial detection.

00:24:14 ◼   ► - Do you have skin? - What are detections?

00:24:16 ◼   ► I don't like skin detection.

00:24:18 ◼   ► - Is there skin here?

00:24:18 ◼   ► Oh, I see skin. - Not sure

00:24:20 ◼   ► what skin detection means.

00:24:22 ◼   ► - It means that if you're a skeleton, you can't use this.

00:24:25 ◼   ► You're locked out. - Whoops, sorry.

00:24:26 ◼   ► Not for me. - Skellingtons are locked out.

00:24:29 ◼   ► I, so I have an Oculus Quest 2,

00:24:32 ◼   ► and they added some gesture controls.

00:24:36 ◼   ► - I think it's called MetaQuest now.

00:24:38 ◼   ► I saw an ad for this.

00:24:39 ◼   ► - Is it?

00:24:40 ◼   ► - Yeah, I think they dropped the Oculus brand

00:24:42 ◼   ► and they now call it the MetaQuest.

00:24:44 ◼   ► - Okay, great.

00:24:45 ◼   ► Well, that's not what I bought.

00:24:47 ◼   ► I didn't buy it something with meta in the name.

00:24:49 ◼   ► - Oculus, dammit!

00:24:51 ◼   ► - Whatever.

00:24:52 ◼   ► But what has struck me about it,

00:24:55 ◼   ► I mean, it wasn't initially designed

00:24:58 ◼   ► with this hand detection in mind

00:25:00 ◼   ► and it is kind of janky.

00:25:04 ◼   ► Like the hand tracking on the controllers is really good.

00:25:09 ◼   ► And then they kind of added in this hand detection

00:25:13 ◼   ► so you can not use the controllers

00:25:15 ◼   ► and just sort of like move your hand in a virtual space

00:25:17 ◼   ► and you see it and you can tap with your index finger

00:25:21 ◼   ► and your thumb to select things and all of that.

00:25:24 ◼   ► And it doesn't work very well.

00:25:25 ◼   ► But I will say this,

00:25:27 ◼   ► that has given me a window into Apple

00:25:32 ◼   ► talking about gesture control and hand gestures

00:25:34 ◼   ► and movements being the primary interaction method.

00:25:37 ◼   ► And I get it, I actually do get it,

00:25:39 ◼   ► especially if this is not something that is a,

00:25:42 ◼   ► that they wanna outfit everybody

00:25:44 ◼   ► with a little hand controls,

00:25:47 ◼   ► but they wanna just, you put it on

00:25:49 ◼   ► and then you just wave your actual hands.

00:25:51 ◼   ► And so I can see this, this is actually really important.

00:25:55 ◼   ► And I think could be a key to having it be more usable

00:25:57 ◼   ► by more people is if you could do that well,

00:26:01 ◼   ► so that it seems very natural to just move your hands around

00:26:04 ◼   ► to select things and do all of that.

00:26:07 ◼   ► And I'm not gonna make the quest seem bad

00:26:12 ◼   ► because it does it poorly.

00:26:13 ◼   ► I think that it was added to the quest.

00:26:15 ◼   ► It was not initially part of the concept.

00:26:17 ◼   ► And it's nice that they added it and are trying it out.

00:26:20 ◼   ► But I expect that a next generation headset from Meta

00:26:25 ◼   ► would be better at it.

00:26:29 ◼   ► And I expect that Apple,

00:26:31 ◼   ► that's one of the reasons Apple is doing this.

00:26:32 ◼   ► So I think it's a good thing.

00:26:33 ◼   ► Having been impressed by the controllers

00:26:38 ◼   ► that the Quest has, they're very good.

00:26:40 ◼   ► - They're very good.

00:26:41 ◼   ► I love those controllers.

00:26:42 ◼   ► - But there is something more natural

00:26:44 ◼   ► about using your hands, it's just gotta work right.

00:26:46 ◼   ► And the meta stuff,

00:26:49 ◼   ► honestly, when you've got those hand controllers

00:26:50 ◼   ► and then you put them down and then you pick up your hands

00:26:52 ◼   ► and you try to do things, you're like,

00:26:53 ◼   ► "Oh, I'm just gonna pick up the hand controllers.

00:26:55 ◼   ► They're perfect."

00:26:57 ◼   ► But if Apple could do that level or close to that level

00:27:00 ◼   ► with its headset, I think that would be a winner.

00:27:03 ◼   ► - Yeah, like I've used the hand detection

00:27:05 ◼   ► on my Quest as well.

00:27:06 ◼   ► And there is that thing where like,

00:27:08 ◼   ► you just look down at your hands and move your fingers

00:27:10 ◼   ► and they move and that's very impressive, right?

00:27:13 ◼   ► And you're right, like they put this feature in,

00:27:17 ◼   ► I don't think they built the device for this feature.

00:27:21 ◼   ► And I would expect that the next one

00:27:24 ◼   ► would be more built for this,

00:27:25 ◼   ► 'cause it is clearly the best possible thing you could do,

00:27:29 ◼   ► right, for this type of hardware.

00:27:31 ◼   ► - I would imagine that for certain games and things,

00:27:34 ◼   ► like it will be much--

00:27:35 ◼   ► - Still want something to hold on to.

00:27:36 ◼   ► - Better to do something

00:27:37 ◼   ► and it's got some very detailed

00:27:39 ◼   ► kind of controller-y kind of things.

00:27:41 ◼   ► I get that, right?

00:27:44 ◼   ► - I mean, but there are a lot of games

00:27:46 ◼   ► that are just mimicking hand movements in some certain way.

00:27:50 ◼   ► - What I was trying to think is like,

00:27:52 ◼   ► thinking about playing Beat Saber,

00:27:54 ◼   ► with just my hands.

00:27:57 ◼   ► And on the Quest, you can't do that.

00:28:01 ◼   ► But if you had that kind of hand and arm tracking so good

00:28:06 ◼   ► that you could do the same level of precision

00:28:10 ◼   ► but just with your hands, that would be pretty great.

00:28:13 ◼   ► So yeah, this product is starting,

00:28:17 ◼   ► I mean, there's more information

00:28:18 ◼   ► that we're gonna get to in a second here,

00:28:19 ◼   ► but this product is starting to come into focus.

00:28:21 ◼   ► And will it be a huge hit?

00:28:25 ◼   ► No, but it's a first step.

00:28:28 ◼   ► And having used that quest, I'm interested.

00:28:33 ◼   ► I'm interested.

00:28:34 ◼   ► A lot of it's gonna come down to the software

00:28:36 ◼   ► and to the apps, but I don't know.

00:28:40 ◼   ► I think there's something there.

00:28:42 ◼   ► - One thing I would be interested in is

00:28:44 ◼   ► if Meta would put Beat Saber on Apple's device.

00:28:49 ◼   ► I don't know.

00:28:50 ◼   ► there? Is that their game? They bought Beat Saber, yeah. It didn't used to be, but they

00:28:54 ◼   ► bought it. They've bought up a bunch of studios that make the best games, like basically all

00:29:00 ◼   ► of the best Oculus games. Facebook, now Meta, bought them. Interesting. I don't know whether

00:29:07 ◼   ► they will work with a competing platform or not. Like, do they see it as an opportunity

00:29:12 ◼   ► for their software to be in front of more people and that generally improving the experience

00:29:17 ◼   ► of AR and VR everywhere or are they gonna keep that to themselves? I would say that

00:29:20 ◼   ► if they keep that to themselves somebody else will create a Beat Saber like game.

00:29:25 ◼   ► Yeah, Beat Saber exists on the PlayStation system but it predated the acquisition. I

00:29:33 ◼   ► mean and there is like you know there's precedent for it like Minecraft owned by Microsoft is

00:29:38 ◼   ► still available everywhere but at the same time Microsoft bought Bethesda and they're

00:29:42 ◼   ► not putting new games on anything outside of their own platforms. So, you know, who

00:29:50 ◼   ► knows? Honestly, I don't know what the right answer would be there. I mean, they would

00:29:57 ◼   ► like make a lot of money, but I don't know if that's core to their strategy. Because

00:30:02 ◼   ► Beat Saber is one of the killer apps for the Oculus.

00:30:07 ◼   ► - Exactly, and that's why you buy an Oculus.

00:30:10 ◼   ► And if they do a new version of the headset

00:30:12 ◼   ► where you just have to hold your hand like a fist

00:30:14 ◼   ► and do Beat Saber and it works great,

00:30:17 ◼   ► then that's gonna be another reason to get a Quest

00:30:19 ◼   ► instead of whatever this Apple thing is.

00:30:22 ◼   ► But again, I think Apple's going to take advantage

00:30:25 ◼   ► of the fact that there are all of these iPhone games

00:30:27 ◼   ► and they're going to get iPhone game developers

00:30:31 ◼   ► to add in 3D layer and get a 3D version

00:30:36 ◼   ► and support for hand controllers or whatever you call them

00:30:41 ◼   ► and get a bunch of stuff too.

00:30:44 ◼   ► And the question is, will there be killer apps in there?

00:30:46 ◼   ► And is somebody gonna make something that's like Beat Saber

00:30:50 ◼   ► or another rhythm game that's similar

00:30:51 ◼   ► that has you moving your body that will solve this.

00:30:54 ◼   ► But Beat Saber is really good

00:30:55 ◼   ► for people who haven't played it.

00:30:56 ◼   ► Like I've got, I don't wanna give away

00:30:58 ◼   ► some of my nominees for the upgrade-ies,

00:30:59 ◼   ► but I've got a couple Oculus Quest things

00:31:01 ◼   ► that I'm gonna mention. - Oh, that's cool.

00:31:02 ◼   ► - Because they're really fun.

00:31:04 ◼   ► And I've had a Quest for the last year.

00:31:06 ◼   ► So I've enjoyed those.

00:31:08 ◼   ► - I would hope that Apple would be smart enough

00:31:11 ◼   ► to work with some of their Apple Arcade game developers

00:31:15 ◼   ► to produce VR experiences.

00:31:18 ◼   ► - Oh yeah, Apple Arcade VR would be good.

00:31:20 ◼   ► And I'm reminded by James Thompson,

00:31:22 ◼   ► our dear friend, friend of the show,

00:31:24 ◼   ► dear friend of the show in the Discord right now.

00:31:27 ◼   ► We know James will be there, right?

00:31:28 ◼   ► James is gonna be there.

00:31:30 ◼   ► You'll be able to roll dice or flip coins

00:31:33 ◼   ► in virtual reality on day one, I predict.

00:31:36 ◼   ► - I just wanna have a really big calculator

00:31:38 ◼   ► and just punch the buttons.

00:31:40 ◼   ► - Oh, can you imagine a calculator that's like,

00:31:42 ◼   ► you gotta run around on it and jump

00:31:45 ◼   ► to press the buttons or something?

00:31:46 ◼   ► It's like a giant calculator.

00:31:48 ◼   ► - Like the keyboard in "Big."

00:31:50 ◼   ► - Yes, exactly, that's what I was thinking.

00:31:52 ◼   ► It's like that keyboard in "Big."

00:31:53 ◼   ► You gotta jump around on the calculator

00:31:55 ◼   ► in order to calculate things.

00:31:57 ◼   ► And then the tape, the tape on it is actual tape,

00:32:01 ◼   ► paper tape that just keeps growing and spooling out.

00:32:04 ◼   ► And if you wanna clear it, you gotta walk up to it

00:32:05 ◼   ► you gotta rip it off.

00:32:06 ◼   ► - Rip it off.

00:32:07 ◼   ► There you go, James.

00:32:09 ◼   ► Easy.

00:32:10 ◼   ► Now all you gotta do is make it.

00:32:11 ◼   ► - Solved.

00:32:13 ◼   ► - So Ming-Chi Kuo had a second report.

00:32:15 ◼   ► It was mostly talking about the second generation

00:32:17 ◼   ► of this device,

00:32:18 ◼   ► but it did mention that the first generation device

00:32:21 ◼   ► is expected to weigh three to 400 grams.

00:32:23 ◼   ► Which is heavy.

00:32:26 ◼   ► That's kind of like in AirPods Max territory.

00:32:30 ◼   ► But it all depends, as we know these things,

00:32:34 ◼   ► on the balance and the way that the device is weighted.

00:32:37 ◼   ► Like weight doesn't really mean anything.

00:32:37 ◼   ► - The Oculus Quest 2 is 500 grams.

00:32:40 ◼   ► So it would actually be lighter than the Quest 2,

00:32:42 ◼   ► which is good.

00:32:43 ◼   ► I'm also gonna say,

00:32:44 ◼   ► and I don't mean to demean Oculus slash meta

00:32:48 ◼   ► because I know that they sweat this stuff too,

00:32:51 ◼   ► but I would hope that Apple would have done a lot of work

00:32:54 ◼   ► on the ergonomics of this thing

00:32:56 ◼   ► so that it isn't like painful to put it on your face.

00:32:59 ◼   ► - I hope so too.

00:33:01 ◼   ► I mean, you know,

00:33:02 ◼   ► There are ways to make this stuff really comfortable.

00:33:04 ◼   ► I think the most comfortable that I've used is the PSVR.

00:33:09 ◼   ► That feels good to wear.

00:33:11 ◼   ► Yeah, the Quest is okay.

00:33:13 ◼   ► I had to buy the, like, comfort strap for it

00:33:16 ◼   ► because it comes with the discomfort strap.

00:33:18 ◼   ► But that's the comfort strap is very similar to the PSVR

00:33:21 ◼   ► where it's anchoring it on the back of your head,

00:33:23 ◼   ► not on the front of your face.

00:33:25 ◼   ► Exactly. It's kind of a must-buy for the Quest.

00:33:28 ◼   ► So I'm hoping that they'll be better about it.

00:33:30 ◼   ► talking about a second generation of this though, like that really does lock it in as that this is

00:33:35 ◼   ► really happening, that they've already designed the first generation one that we'll see next year,

00:33:40 ◼   ► and they've moved on to generation two, right? They're designing the 2023 headset now,

00:33:46 ◼   ► if not beyond. - Look, I know everyone talks about the headset as like, "Oh, it's just a precursor to

00:33:54 ◼   ► glasses." I don't think that's the case anymore. I think they'll make two types of product.

00:33:59 ◼   ► - Hmm.

00:34:00 ◼   ► - 'Cause, you know, I really do,

00:34:01 ◼   ► look, I know like there's a lot said about this,

00:34:03 ◼   ► but who knows how it's gonna play out.

00:34:06 ◼   ► But this idea of the metaverse is being pushed on

00:34:11 ◼   ► by basically all of the major tech companies now.

00:34:15 ◼   ► So, you know, you might not like the sound of it.

00:34:17 ◼   ► You might think it's weird,

00:34:18 ◼   ► but they're really gonna try and make it happen.

00:34:21 ◼   ► And everyone's trying.

00:34:23 ◼   ► - I think that the way I look at this,

00:34:25 ◼   ► and I think this is the way they're looking at it too,

00:34:26 ◼   ► is that the glasses thing is the obvious end result

00:34:31 ◼   ► of this product march, but that you've got to start.

00:34:35 ◼   ► It's like-

00:34:36 ◼   ► - Well, but there's always gonna be things

00:34:38 ◼   ► that wouldn't work with glasses.

00:34:40 ◼   ► - Right.

00:34:40 ◼   ► - Like they're not gonna be immersive.

00:34:42 ◼   ► - Or at least not anytime soon.

00:34:44 ◼   ► I would say it's like the PC universe where there was PCs

00:34:48 ◼   ► and then much later there were laptops

00:34:50 ◼   ► and then much later there were smartphones.

00:34:52 ◼   ► Like it takes time and you have to iterate.

00:34:54 ◼   ► You can't just jump to the end product.

00:34:56 ◼   ► 'cause I think glasses that just go on your face

00:34:58 ◼   ► and that can be all of those things

00:35:00 ◼   ► is something that will probably be accomplished,

00:35:02 ◼   ► but you gotta start way before there and then iterate.

00:35:06 ◼   ► And especially if you're Apple, right?

00:35:08 ◼   ► That's what Apple does is start at an early space

00:35:10 ◼   ► where they think there's a viable product

00:35:12 ◼   ► and then they just iterate and iterate and iterate.

00:35:14 ◼   ► And so this is like that.

00:35:16 ◼   ► I think that this is something where there will be

00:35:18 ◼   ► AR glasses that regular people will wear,

00:35:20 ◼   ► but it might not be for five years, 10 years, 15 years,

00:35:23 ◼   ► we don't know.

00:35:24 ◼   ► And you gotta start somewhere.

00:35:25 ◼   ► I think it's interesting that the second "Quo" report

00:35:28 ◼   ► says that these products will seamlessly switch

00:35:32 ◼   ► between AR and VR.

00:35:36 ◼   ► Again, talking about the Quest, the Quest has this mode-

00:35:39 ◼   ► - This is the second one.

00:35:41 ◼   ► - And this is the second one, right?

00:35:43 ◼   ► Okay, so again, you see the advancement here.

00:35:45 ◼   ► So it's AR, but what does that mean?

00:35:47 ◼   ► Well, the Quest has a mode where you tap it

00:35:48 ◼   ► a couple of times and it uses its cameras

00:35:51 ◼   ► to show you what's around you, which is cool,

00:35:53 ◼   ► but it's like grainy black and white.

00:35:55 ◼   ► And it's really just sort of there

00:35:57 ◼   ► because you don't wanna take the headset off

00:35:59 ◼   ► and you need to find something.

00:36:01 ◼   ► But I look at that and I think about the rumors

00:36:03 ◼   ► about these high quality screens

00:36:04 ◼   ► and all the cameras and all the sensors.

00:36:06 ◼   ► And I think, maybe there's a shutter there that flips open,

00:36:10 ◼   ► but probably it's just going to,

00:36:11 ◼   ► the AR mode is just, it uses its cameras

00:36:14 ◼   ► to show you what's around you.

00:36:15 ◼   ► And that's how we augment reality

00:36:17 ◼   ► is we don't show you reality.

00:36:19 ◼   ► We show you our camera's view of reality

00:36:21 ◼   ► and then lay things over it.

00:36:22 ◼   ► So, you know, but this is it, right?

00:36:25 ◼   ► That's gonna be the iteration,

00:36:26 ◼   ► is the first one's gonna be heavy,

00:36:27 ◼   ► the second one will be a little bit lighter

00:36:29 ◼   ► and be better at AR,

00:36:31 ◼   ► and then they'll just kind of progress.

00:36:32 ◼   ► And I think they have to,

00:36:33 ◼   ► I think the whole Apple glasses thing,

00:36:35 ◼   ► like that's the dream, but it's gonna take them,

00:36:39 ◼   ► we've just seen this recently with the Apple Watch, right?

00:36:42 ◼   ► You gotta take time to iterate.

00:36:44 ◼   ► The first Apple Watch was big and slow,

00:36:46 ◼   ► and the app story wasn't very good,

00:36:48 ◼   ► but they got there in the end and it took a while.

00:36:50 ◼   ► And that's what's gonna happen with this.

00:36:52 ◼   ► That first one is gonna blow us away in some ways

00:36:55 ◼   ► and make us shake our head in other ways.

00:36:57 ◼   ► But that is, and a lot of people who kind of

00:37:00 ◼   ► don't follow Apple that closely miss this,

00:37:02 ◼   ► but that's the starting gun of the race for Apple.

00:37:07 ◼   ► Then they begin iterating.

00:37:10 ◼   ► - So the second generation headset will be coming in 2024

00:37:14 ◼   ► and it will have a lighter design,

00:37:16 ◼   ► new battery system and a faster processor.

00:37:19 ◼   ► - Right.

00:37:20 ◼   ► - So that thing about the ARVR was in the report

00:37:23 ◼   ► of the second one.

00:37:24 ◼   ► Actually, I think I misspoke.

00:37:28 ◼   ► It is also intended for the first one.

00:37:30 ◼   ► So my apologies for correcting you.

00:37:31 ◼   ► - I can't envision Apple not doing what the Quest has

00:37:36 ◼   ► at the very least, right?

00:37:37 ◼   ► And probably better than that, which is,

00:37:39 ◼   ► I'm really viewing this as being,

00:37:41 ◼   ► this first generation Apple headset

00:37:42 ◼   ► will probably be comparable to the Quest 3, right?

00:37:46 ◼   ► - Yeah.

00:37:47 ◼   ► - A newer version that may or may not exist,

00:37:49 ◼   ► I assume will exist at some point here,

00:37:51 ◼   ► where it's better than what we've got.

00:37:53 ◼   ► And so like the grainy black and white,

00:37:55 ◼   ► it's like, that's nice, but it's really not that nice.

00:37:58 ◼   ► It should be better than that.

00:38:00 ◼   ► And I'm sure Apple will make that better.

00:38:03 ◼   ► Even if it remains to be seen whether people actually use it

00:38:07 ◼   ► in that mode for very much,

00:38:08 ◼   ► it is nice when you've got something covering your eyes

00:38:10 ◼   ► to be able to see what's around you.

00:38:12 ◼   ► It's good, it's a good thing.

00:38:15 ◼   ► - Yeah, there's rumors of a Quest Pro.

00:38:19 ◼   ► - Ah.

00:38:19 ◼   ► - Probably similar-ish to that.

00:38:21 ◼   ► Like they're gonna make an expensive version, right?

00:38:24 ◼   ► 'Cause we obviously know apples is gonna be expensive.

00:38:27 ◼   ► - Sure. - Whatever it's gonna be.

00:38:28 ◼   ► So, yeah, so I remain intrigued.

00:38:32 ◼   ► And so as I've said before,

00:38:33 ◼   ► like the idea of just pure AR glasses,

00:38:36 ◼   ► that doesn't excite me, but I do like VR experiences.

00:38:41 ◼   ► So that excites me a little bit more.

00:38:43 ◼   ► I'm still not 100% sure about this idea

00:38:46 ◼   ► of having a computer in my eyes all the time.

00:38:49 ◼   ► - Yeah.

00:38:50 ◼   ► - But I remain curious.

00:38:52 ◼   ► - Sure.

00:38:53 ◼   ► - All right, so one of the things that you and Dan

00:38:55 ◼   ► also spoke about last week was Apple's lack of some features

00:39:00 ◼   ► that we are expecting to come this year.

00:39:03 ◼   ► - Announced and yet not yet in existence.

00:39:06 ◼   ► - Exactly, so the release candidate of Monterey 12.1

00:39:10 ◼   ► has been, has come out, I think it's been two of them now.

00:39:13 ◼   ► And it does not include universal control.

00:39:15 ◼   ► So I think it's pretty set we're not gonna get

00:39:19 ◼   ► universal control this year,

00:39:20 ◼   ► it's probably gonna come next year.

00:39:22 ◼   ► This 12.1 release candidate does include some fixes

00:39:25 ◼   ► for the way that the notch behaves on the new MacBook Pro.

00:39:28 ◼   ► So there was some weirdness with some menu bar items

00:39:32 ◼   ► and some menus getting hidden behind the notch

00:39:37 ◼   ► or like covering each other up.

00:39:40 ◼   ► And this version explicitly calls that out

00:39:43 ◼   ► as something that they're fixing.

00:39:44 ◼   ► - Oh, iOS 15.2 is rolling out right now,

00:39:48 ◼   ► as we're recording. - Breaking news.

00:39:49 ◼   ► - So we can assume that-- - All the finals

00:39:51 ◼   ► are coming out. - It's all happening.

00:39:53 ◼   ► It's all happening, that's good,

00:39:54 ◼   ► 'cause I want that macro toggle on my iPhone.

00:39:57 ◼   ► I wanted to say about something

00:39:59 ◼   ► that I hope that 12.1 will fix for me.

00:40:02 ◼   ► I've been having really weird WiFi connectivity issues

00:40:05 ◼   ► on my MacBook Pro, and it's something

00:40:07 ◼   ► that I've only really noticed as I've been traveling,

00:40:10 ◼   ► because I've been connecting to new WiFi networks.

00:40:12 ◼   ► But there are times where my MacBook Pro just cannot find any Wi-Fi networks, as if none exist.

00:40:19 ◼   ► And I have to turn Wi-Fi on and off multiple times before they show up.

00:40:23 ◼   ► It's very strange. And it's not a bug that I've come across because I'm in fixed connections all

00:40:28 ◼   ► the time, right? Like, that's the entire time I've had this MacBook Pro, I've not been going to new

00:40:34 ◼   ► places. But every time I need to connect to a brand new Wi-Fi network, it's really been struggling to

00:40:39 ◼   ► find them. Weird. Well, you'll have to report back.

00:40:42 ◼   ► - I will, I will let you know.

00:40:44 ◼   ► - On 12.1.

00:40:45 ◼   ► I am reminded, you talked about like fixing

00:40:47 ◼   ► the way the notch behaves and all that.

00:40:49 ◼   ► It's like, I can't check any of this out

00:40:52 ◼   ► because there are no longer any notched Macs in my house.

00:40:57 ◼   ► I sent back my review unit of the MacBook Pro

00:41:01 ◼   ► last week, last Friday.

00:41:03 ◼   ► And I used it as an opportunity

00:41:08 ◼   ► to test out a live streaming setup.

00:41:12 ◼   ► - Yes.

00:41:13 ◼   ► Okay.

00:41:15 ◼   ► - I gave you credit.

00:41:16 ◼   ► You suggested that it might be a smart thing

00:41:18 ◼   ► for me to do these occasionally.

00:41:20 ◼   ► And I think you're right.

00:41:22 ◼   ► When I've got products that are interesting

00:41:24 ◼   ► that people might wanna see that I could do that.

00:41:28 ◼   ► And so, yeah, I tested it out last week

00:41:31 ◼   ► with an irony laden concept, which was the ReBoxing video.

00:41:36 ◼   ► So I went live to put my MacBook Pro review unit

00:41:41 ◼   ► to wipe it using the new features in Monterey

00:41:45 ◼   ► to erase all on a device.

00:41:49 ◼   ► And then I closed it up and I packed it up in its box

00:41:52 ◼   ► and I put it in the box that it came in

00:41:54 ◼   ► and taped it closed and put the label on

00:41:58 ◼   ► and that was my live stream.

00:42:01 ◼   ► And then I went to FedEx's website

00:42:04 ◼   ► which I didn't do on the live stream

00:42:06 ◼   ► and they came and got it like an hour later.

00:42:07 ◼   ► So it's gone.

00:42:09 ◼   ► But if people wanna watch a guy put a MacBook Pro

00:42:12 ◼   ► back in a box, there's a video for that on the internet.

00:42:17 ◼   ► - You streamed on YouTube, right?

00:42:19 ◼   ► - I did.

00:42:20 ◼   ► I did. - That makes sense.

00:42:21 ◼   ► - Steven and I had a conversation,

00:42:24 ◼   ► Steven Hackett, obviously,

00:42:25 ◼   ► about your embrace of Twitch, which is great,

00:42:28 ◼   ► but you really need to embrace Twitch

00:42:29 ◼   ► because Twitch is its own culture.

00:42:31 ◼   ► And I think Steven and I both agreed

00:42:33 ◼   ► probably more work than we want to do.

00:42:35 ◼   ► So YouTube is there and it's easy

00:42:37 ◼   ► and I already do it for Total Party Kill

00:42:39 ◼   ► and I don't really want to have to learn

00:42:43 ◼   ► all there is to know about Twitch,

00:42:45 ◼   ► especially when I'm not sure how much I'm going to do this.

00:42:47 ◼   ► So I'm just going to do YouTube, it's very easy.

00:42:49 ◼   ► - I think it makes sense for the two of you,

00:42:51 ◼   ► if you're going to stream to stream on YouTube.

00:42:53 ◼   ► Like I've just, you know, that's more of a thing

00:42:56 ◼   ► that two of you are in.

00:42:57 ◼   ► Then going onto Twitch,

00:42:59 ◼   ► you've got like a whole set of things

00:43:03 ◼   ► - That it does however, YouTube is slowly ripping

00:43:06 ◼   ► those things off so maybe it's gonna come for you anyway.

00:43:10 ◼   ► - Excellent.

00:43:11 ◼   ► - Like all of the different ways that people can give money

00:43:13 ◼   ► and stuff like that if they want to support the stream,

00:43:16 ◼   ► YouTube is slowly incorporating all of these things

00:43:19 ◼   ► so maybe it's gonna come for you, you don't even know it.

00:43:22 ◼   ► - Oh that's fine, that's fair.

00:43:24 ◼   ► But it was, in order to get this going,

00:43:25 ◼   ► it was making some decisions about what was I comfortable

00:43:29 ◼   ► committing to and I already have livestream setups

00:43:32 ◼   ► for Total Party Kill for YouTube.

00:43:35 ◼   ► And so it was very easy.

00:43:37 ◼   ► And I can stream to Twitch too, and maybe I will someday,

00:43:40 ◼   ► but right now I think the YouTube,

00:43:41 ◼   ► and I already have subscribers

00:43:42 ◼   ► on the Six Colors YouTube channel.

00:43:45 ◼   ► - That's what makes it a good reason to do it.

00:43:47 ◼   ► And I can, it's for Steven, too, 'cause Plus as well,

00:43:48 ◼   ► like I think for the two of you,

00:43:50 ◼   ► like YouTube is still a going concern for your businesses.

00:43:53 ◼   ► - Yeah, a little bit. - And so this is an easy way

00:43:56 ◼   ► to like have more content on the YouTube channel as well.

00:43:58 ◼   ► So I do think it's smart.

00:44:00 ◼   ► I think it makes sense.

00:44:01 ◼   ► go out and buy a an overhead camera and some other all the stuff that has to

00:44:07 ◼   ► come with that and all that but I think it worked pretty well I think it looked

00:44:10 ◼   ► pretty good having a modern camera that I bought just for the overhead instead

00:44:14 ◼   ► of repurposing some crappy camera helped a lot. What camera did you get? Oh the

00:44:21 ◼   ► Sony alpha 6400. That's what I got. Yeah it's great. That's what Steven has too. Yeah.

00:44:27 ◼   ► - Yeah, if you have problems with it over heat

00:44:29 ◼   ► and I can help you out.

00:44:30 ◼   ► - Thank you.

00:44:31 ◼   ► - 'Cause I just had to deal with that myself.

00:44:33 ◼   ► But no, I'm really pleased that you're doing this.

00:44:35 ◼   ► So this came up on our keyboard club stream that we did.

00:44:39 ◼   ► - Right.

00:44:40 ◼   ► - Where I kind of was always, I've wondered for a while

00:44:42 ◼   ► that there is nobody that gets review units

00:44:46 ◼   ► does live streams of them,

00:44:48 ◼   ► like trying them out on embargo day.

00:44:50 ◼   ► And then it's 'cause it's a busy day for everyone.

00:44:51 ◼   ► - There's a reason.

00:44:52 ◼   ► - Yeah, super busy.

00:44:53 ◼   ► - There's a big reason that people

00:44:55 ◼   ► who are super video savvy are making their videos.

00:44:58 ◼   ► They're not doing live streams, they're making their videos.

00:45:01 ◼   ► - And they want you to watch the video.

00:45:03 ◼   ► - And the writers are writing their articles.

00:45:05 ◼   ► But there's probably a place in there,

00:45:07 ◼   ► and I mentioned this on the live stream,

00:45:09 ◼   ► but especially if you're somebody

00:45:11 ◼   ► who doesn't get it on embargo, although sometimes even then,

00:45:15 ◼   ► but when you don't get it on embargo,

00:45:16 ◼   ► what you end up with is you end up with a product

00:45:18 ◼   ► that nobody else has except the reviewers,

00:45:21 ◼   ► because the embargo dropped

00:45:23 ◼   ► and all the reviews posted on Tuesday morning

00:45:25 ◼   ► or Wednesday morning,

00:45:27 ◼   ► and then the product comes out Friday.

00:45:29 ◼   ► And you're sitting there thinking,

00:45:31 ◼   ► well, I can write a review, but it'll be really quick,

00:45:33 ◼   ► and I'll be competing with reviews

00:45:35 ◼   ► that people had a week to write it.

00:45:37 ◼   ► So that's not good.

00:45:39 ◼   ► So what do I do?

00:45:39 ◼   ► And the answer may be, well, I could do a live stream,

00:45:42 ◼   ► and then people could see it and ask me questions,

00:45:44 ◼   ► and it would be a product that I have that they don't have,

00:45:48 ◼   ► so I would be able to show it to them.

00:45:50 ◼   ► And that might be a little place to fill it.

00:45:51 ◼   ► So I'm gonna experiment.

00:45:53 ◼   ► It'll be fun.

00:45:54 ◼   ► I did have to take the upgrade champion pennant off my wall

00:45:57 ◼   ► before I did the live stream so that nobody saw it

00:45:59 ◼   ► 'cause we hadn't mentioned it yet.

00:46:02 ◼   ► - That would just seem like you were really proud

00:46:04 ◼   ► of yourself.

00:46:05 ◼   ► - Yeah, exactly.

00:46:06 ◼   ► - Like you made yourself a pennant.

00:46:07 ◼   ► I mean, you kind of did.

00:46:08 ◼   ► - That did happen.

00:46:09 ◼   ► - It's worse if I don't have one, right?

00:46:11 ◼   ► Like if I have one, then it's fine.

00:46:13 ◼   ► We're on a level playing field here,

00:46:14 ◼   ► but it just is like, here's me congratulating myself

00:46:16 ◼   ► on my great wins.

00:46:19 ◼   ► We can now do some follow up for previous episodes that were not last week, because

00:46:23 ◼   ► there's been some news in the last week that I think has been interesting and of note.

00:46:29 ◼   ► So according to Bloomberg via MacRumors, Apple have lost three key engineers on their

00:46:35 ◼   ► car project. So they have lost the chief for radar systems, the engineering manager for

00:46:41 ◼   ► the battery team and a hardware engineering manager, which makes for a total of six key

00:46:45 ◼   ► departures from the team in 2021.

00:46:48 ◼   ► and they're largely leaving to two different

00:46:51 ◼   ► flying taxi startups.

00:46:53 ◼   ► - That doesn't even seem real to me, that phrase,

00:46:57 ◼   ► flying taxi startups.

00:47:00 ◼   ► That seems like a joke, like somebody made that up.

00:47:04 ◼   ► - Well, I made a joke on Twitter about this.

00:47:08 ◼   ► I said like, what do you think is more likely

00:47:10 ◼   ► the Apple car or flying taxis?

00:47:12 ◼   ► But I think the truth is that if you're somebody

00:47:14 ◼   ► who's working in this field and you're really excited,

00:47:17 ◼   ► flying taxi thing, they've got investment money.

00:47:20 ◼   ► So, you know, you're probably gonna get paid

00:47:23 ◼   ► or at least get some stock options.

00:47:26 ◼   ► And so there's maybe a chance of that

00:47:28 ◼   ► as well as excitement.

00:47:29 ◼   ► Like we're gonna- - Well, I have a question

00:47:30 ◼   ► actually. - Yes.

00:47:31 ◼   ► - What is a flying taxi?

00:47:33 ◼   ► Is it a car that can fly

00:47:36 ◼   ► or is it just a plane you take short distances?

00:47:39 ◼   ► - Taxi or not.

00:47:41 ◼   ► Taxi or not.

00:47:42 ◼   ► - Which one is it?

00:47:43 ◼   ► Do you know?

00:47:44 ◼   ► I mean, it's a flying device.

00:47:48 ◼   ► It's like a flying, it's like a plane,

00:47:51 ◼   ► except also like a helicopter, but yeah.

00:47:54 ◼   ► No, the idea is it flies to you when you get in

00:47:56 ◼   ► and then it flies to your destination and you get out.

00:47:58 ◼   ► - Wow.

00:47:59 ◼   ► I'm looking at the website.

00:48:01 ◼   ► Archer, it's called.

00:48:03 ◼   ► - Yeah, there's a couple of them, but yeah.

00:48:04 ◼   ► - It looks scary.

00:48:06 ◼   ► It looks like a spy plane.

00:48:08 ◼   ► - Well, I'm really skeptical if this thing is gonna ever,

00:48:11 ◼   ► these things are actually gonna ever exist.

00:48:13 ◼   ► But anyway, if you're well compensated

00:48:15 ◼   ► and you've got the challenge of doing something

00:48:17 ◼   ► that's really cool, 'cause it's not just a car,

00:48:19 ◼   ► it's a flying car, flying thing, that's awesome.

00:48:24 ◼   ► Okay, but an Apple, it seems to be,

00:48:30 ◼   ► wherever Apple's project is now,

00:48:32 ◼   ► it's probably a little more mundane

00:48:34 ◼   ► and they may also be bogged down.

00:48:37 ◼   ► And so I can see people saying,

00:48:39 ◼   ► "I'm leaving because it's a better job

00:48:41 ◼   ► or more prestigious or more money or something like that.

00:48:44 ◼   ► That all said, if I had to make a bet

00:48:48 ◼   ► about which one would be a viable commercial product

00:48:51 ◼   ► in the next five years, the Apple car or a flying taxi,

00:48:55 ◼   ► I'm going with the Apple car.

00:48:58 ◼   ► I can't believe it.

00:48:59 ◼   ► I can't believe there's something out there

00:49:00 ◼   ► that I feel like is even less likely than the Apple car,

00:49:03 ◼   ► but flying taxis, I've read articles about them.

00:49:07 ◼   ► I think it's really interesting, but no, no.

00:49:11 ◼   ► The Ninth Circuit Court of Appeals has given Apple the stay that they were looking for.

00:49:16 ◼   ► This was on the alternate payment processing thing from the Epic case.

00:49:23 ◼   ► So Apple have not had to make the changes to the App Store rules as of yet to allow

00:49:27 ◼   ► for third party payment processing.

00:49:29 ◼   ► And the appeal process that the stay is in conjunction with on the original ruling is

00:49:35 ◼   ► going to take about a year and Apple are not going to be compelled to make any changes

00:49:39 ◼   ► until the appeals process is over. The appeals process will now most likely go in Apple's

00:49:44 ◼   ► favor. So it's probably the end of that unless they do something of their own, which I still

00:49:52 ◼   ► am holding out hope for.

00:49:53 ◼   ► HAN

00:50:03 ◼   ► decision that was, you know, gonna make Apple make some changes and Apple

00:50:06 ◼   ► basically said, "Oh no, we can't make changes," and the Ninth Circuit has said,

00:50:11 ◼   ► "Fair enough, we'll stay this while we consider it," and I shared this link

00:50:18 ◼   ► with you while you were on your vacation and I believe your response was, "Boo."

00:50:21 ◼   ► Yeah, so I just want to see them moving in this direction and they're

00:50:29 ◼   ► not moving themselves and now none of the judicial processes are moving them either.

00:50:34 ◼   ► I just think that we've gone on too long in this and it's just frustrating to me. Apple

00:50:40 ◼   ► should make some changes.

00:50:41 ◼   ► Yeah, but it's not going to do it because of that one judge in this one case. That seems

00:50:47 ◼   ► certain.

00:50:48 ◼   ► I also have a couple of Apple TV+ Upstream headlines that I want to go over.

00:50:52 ◼   ► Oh great.

00:50:53 ◼   ► Just a couple of things. Apple Studios is going to produce and distribute the film adaptation

00:50:57 ◼   ► of Bad Blood, the book about the rise and fall of Theranos, and it will star Jennifer

00:51:01 ◼   ► Lawrence as Elizabeth Holmes with Adam McKay writing and directing.

00:51:05 ◼   ► Ah, this is part of Adam McKay's first look with, uh, deal with Apple.

00:51:09 ◼   ► Yeah.

00:51:10 ◼   ► That they, uh, that they got this. He's got a movie actually just out, I believe, but

00:51:14 ◼   ► this is, uh, uh, December 24th, I think, on Netflix. Is that a Netflix movie? Is that

00:51:19 ◼   ► the one you're talking about? The, uh, one with Leonardo DiCaprio?

00:51:22 ◼   ► Yes.

00:51:23 ◼   ► - Yeah, that's out on, I think it comes out in December.

00:51:27 ◼   ► - Well, it's playing in theaters now.

00:51:30 ◼   ► - Ah, okay, sorry, sorry, yes,

00:51:32 ◼   ► 'cause they do the thing, right,

00:51:33 ◼   ► where they put it out first.

00:51:35 ◼   ► So it's out now, but it will be coming to Netflix.

00:51:38 ◼   ► That's a Netflix movie.

00:51:39 ◼   ► - So this is interesting,

00:51:40 ◼   ► it's part of his first look deal with Apple,

00:51:44 ◼   ► and I saw somebody on Twitter joke

00:51:48 ◼   ► that Apple is finally making its own Steve Jobs movie,

00:51:52 ◼   ► because of course Elizabeth Holmes sort of like fancied herself as a Steve Jobs-esque

00:51:59 ◼   ► figure but of course then it she's on trial now and it all went horribly wrong so.

00:52:05 ◼   ► Jennifer Lawrence good constant I think you're really well in this role I think I'm pretty

00:52:10 ◼   ► excited for this movie to be honest.

00:52:13 ◼   ► Jonah Hill will be playing Grateful Dead's Jerry Garcia in a Martin Scorsese biopic produced

00:52:19 ◼   ► by Apple Studios.

00:52:20 ◼   ► - There's a lot of names there.

00:52:23 ◼   ► - There's a lot going on in that one.

00:52:25 ◼   ► - Sierra Garcia, Martin Scorsese.

00:52:26 ◼   ► Well, Martin Scorsese understands that era of music.

00:52:29 ◼   ► We think of him as making like crime movies

00:52:32 ◼   ► and things like that, but he also did what,

00:52:35 ◼   ► The Last Waltz, which is considered the greatest rock movie

00:52:40 ◼   ► or one of the greatest rock movies ever.

00:52:43 ◼   ► - He did vinyl too, right?

00:52:44 ◼   ► The TV show?

00:52:45 ◼   ► - Yeah, so that's definitely, I think,

00:52:49 ◼   ► an aspect of Scorsese that doesn't get enough attention and that he may be, um, you know,

00:52:56 ◼   ► I'm not that interested in the Grateful Dead to be perfectly honest, but I think this is

00:53:01 ◼   ► an interesting project and people have opinions about Jonah Hill as Jerry Garcia, but like,

00:53:05 ◼   ► you know, people had opinions about Val Kilmer as Jim Morrison too and that turned out okay,

00:53:09 ◼   ► so we'll see.

00:53:10 ◼   ► - What do people not like about Jonah Hill as Jerry Garcia?

00:53:13 ◼   ► - I don't know, I think that there are a lot of Grateful Dead people who just think that

00:53:17 ◼   ► Jerry Garcia is sort of a saintly special figure and that Jonah Hill is just that guy

00:53:23 ◼   ► from those movies.

00:53:25 ◼   ► - Yeah, see, yeah, okay. I mean, Jonah Hill has put in some incredible performances. Like,

00:53:30 ◼   ► if people just think of him as the super bad guy, I, you know, I think...

00:53:34 ◼   ► - Oh, I agree.

00:53:35 ◼   ► - It's almost like thinking, "Oh, Adam McKay just makes stupid movies," right? Which he

00:53:39 ◼   ► now doesn't do.

00:53:40 ◼   ► - It's just the discourse. It's people getting upset and that's gonna happen, but, you know,

00:53:43 ◼   ► We'll see the final thing.

00:53:45 ◼   ► But I think Scorsese wanting to do a biopic

00:53:47 ◼   ► of Jerry Garcia is interesting.

00:53:50 ◼   ► That's an interesting move for him.

00:53:52 ◼   ► - And Invasion has been renewed for season two.

00:53:54 ◼   ► Have you watched any of that yet?

00:53:56 ◼   ► - Nope.

00:53:57 ◼   ► - No, neither have I.

00:53:58 ◼   ► I will.

00:53:59 ◼   ► I've been told it's good, but start slow.

00:54:00 ◼   ► So I kind of decided I would let it run

00:54:03 ◼   ► and then we can bench the whole thing.

00:54:05 ◼   ► - I have so many shows that I have not even cracked

00:54:08 ◼   ► because there's just so much going on right now.

00:54:11 ◼   ► - Yeah, I haven't seen the,

00:54:12 ◼   ► I've been the shrink next door yet either and I haven't really wanted to see that I just haven't gone around to it yet

00:54:18 ◼   ► I haven't either and I have I have so many

00:54:20 ◼   ► Homeworks for the incomparable to on top of that plus there's the stuff that I watch for for fun pleasure plus then I watch you get

00:54:27 ◼   ► back

00:54:27 ◼   ► Which is six hours. I haven't seen that yet, but I desperately want to watch it. That's that's that's something I've really been enjoying

00:54:34 ◼   ► The Dexter show the the Dexter season. Thank you. I don't know if you have watched Dexter

00:54:40 ◼   ► - I watched the first few seasons of Dexter, yes.

00:54:42 ◼   ► - Okay. - And then I got

00:54:43 ◼   ► to the bad one. - Yeah.

00:54:44 ◼   ► - And there's a good one after that,

00:54:45 ◼   ► but I got to the bad one and we gave up and that was that.

00:54:48 ◼   ► - Yeah, it's called Dexter, is it called New Blood,

00:54:51 ◼   ► I think it's called?

00:54:52 ◼   ► It's really good.

00:54:53 ◼   ► Like if you're a fan of the show, thorough recommendation.

00:54:57 ◼   ► It's like, it's so good, I want them to do more of it,

00:55:00 ◼   ► but I think they were just gonna do it as one season

00:55:02 ◼   ► and leave it at that, but like, it's really, really good.

00:55:06 ◼   ► I've really been enjoying that, so there you go.

00:55:09 ◼   ► Alright.

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00:58:07 ◼   ► So the information have published a pretty large report about Apple, Tim Cook and their

00:58:13 ◼   ► relationship with the Chinese government.

00:58:16 ◼   ► And there's a bunch of stuff in this report that is basically collecting up a lot of things

00:58:20 ◼   ► that we've heard about before and expanding on them about Apple's relationship with China.

00:58:25 ◼   ► But the report hinges on a new piece of information that back in 2016, Cook signed an agreement

00:58:31 ◼   ► with officials from the Chinese government that promised Apple would invest more than

00:58:36 ◼   ► 275 billion dollars into the country over a five year period through various means.

00:58:42 ◼   ► Now I want to give a couple of pieces of information from the report and then we can talk about

00:58:46 ◼   ► So Cook secretly visited China many times to make this deal.

00:58:50 ◼   ► Secretly is like, I think, you know, people could know he was in China,

00:58:55 ◼   ► but not knowing what it was about, right?

00:58:57 ◼   ► Was maybe going for visits, but was also meeting with officials.

00:59:01 ◼   ► And this was after there were threats made against some of Apple's services

00:59:05 ◼   ► continuing to be offered in the country.

00:59:07 ◼   ► The agreement was drafted between Apple and China's National Development and Reform Commission

00:59:12 ◼   ► to formally agree on a set of concessions Apple would make in return for some regulatory

00:59:16 ◼   ► exemptions. The agreement included pledges from Apple to improve technological advancements

00:59:22 ◼   ► in Chinese manufacturing, support training of high-quality Chinese talent to use more

00:59:26 ◼   ► Chinese components, sign deals with Chinese software firms, collaborate with Chinese universities,

00:59:31 ◼   ► directly invest in Chinese companies, and assist with Chinese government causes. Apple's

00:59:37 ◼   ► billion investment in the ride hailing company Didi was a part of this deal, which finally

00:59:42 ◼   ► gives us an answer for this perplexing deal that they did in 2016. And Apple has lobbied

00:59:48 ◼   ► with international governments on issues that could impact China.

00:59:51 ◼   ► Tim Cynova Great, great piece, really well reported.

00:59:55 ◼   ► Wayne Ma, if you don't have the information, you can, I think you can sign up, give them

00:59:58 ◼   ► your email address and they'll give you this as a sample and then they'll send you lots

01:00:02 ◼   ► of emails about how you should pay. I don't have a lot of money for the information, but

01:00:07 ◼   ► it's a really great report by Wayne Ma. Couldn't be more impressed with the detail of it. And

01:00:13 ◼   ► despite the, you know, the secret seems all titillating like a secret $275 billion deal,

01:00:19 ◼   ► I feel like this is a really good portrait of the level. I like to mention that, what

01:00:30 ◼   ► is it the New York Times story from during the Trump administration when they referred

01:00:37 ◼   ► to Tim Cook as an ambassador to China, right? Because he was so connected. This is about

01:00:46 ◼   ► diplomacy and about give and take. Any portrayal of this that you see that suggests that it's

01:00:57 ◼   ► all of the ways that Apple does the bidding of the Chinese government is,

01:01:03 ◼   ► is, has missed the point because this is much more complicated than that.

01:01:07 ◼   ► This is Apple navigating what it means to be in business in China as an,

01:01:15 ◼   ► as an American company.

01:01:17 ◼   ► And it's complicated, right?

01:01:21 ◼   ► And, and you could say, and I know some people say, well, the option Apple has

01:01:25 ◼   ► is to just walk away from the Chinese market.

01:01:27 ◼   ► And they could, although that would be really hard,

01:01:31 ◼   ► and they have so much manufacturing in China

01:01:35 ◼   ► that would then be in jeopardy,

01:01:39 ◼   ► and that could jeopardize their whole company.

01:01:41 ◼   ► But Apple has actually gone the other way

01:01:43 ◼   ► and integrated itself even more

01:01:46 ◼   ► in terms of sales and support

01:01:50 ◼   ► and all sorts of other things in the Chinese market.

01:01:52 ◼   ► They're not just using China as a manufacturing hub.

01:01:54 ◼   ► They're a, I think, the leading phone maker this year in China.

01:01:58 ◼   ► So what does that entail?

01:02:01 ◼   ► And the other thing you get out of the article

01:02:03 ◼   ► is very much that this is a two-way street.

01:02:05 ◼   ► Like, China benefits from having this international brand

01:02:12 ◼   ► be a player in China and work with the Chinese government

01:02:17 ◼   ► and follow its rules.

01:02:20 ◼   ► So you're never going to win an argument with somebody

01:02:22 ◼   ► who says the Chinese government is terrible.

01:02:23 ◼   ► You should never deal with them.

01:02:24 ◼   ► you should just not be involved in China at all.

01:02:26 ◼   ► I think that's unrealistic,

01:02:27 ◼   ► but if you've got a view like that, then okay.

01:02:30 ◼   ► I mean, obviously, that's obviously,

01:02:33 ◼   ► Apple has chosen not to do that.

01:02:34 ◼   ► But this gets into the details of like,

01:02:37 ◼   ► and it's nitty gritty stuff.

01:02:39 ◼   ► This is not a story of Apple being told

01:02:41 ◼   ► what to do and doing it.

01:02:42 ◼   ► This is a story of Apple being told what to do

01:02:45 ◼   ► and not doing it and feeling the pain

01:02:47 ◼   ► and doing something different

01:02:50 ◼   ► and Apple being told to do something else and saying,

01:02:53 ◼   ► well, this is not something we can do,

01:02:55 ◼   ► and working in other directions

01:02:58 ◼   ► in order to never have to do that thing.

01:03:01 ◼   ► And the one example that I thought was an amazing,

01:03:04 ◼   ► and this may change, especially after this article came out,

01:03:06 ◼   ► but an amazing detail that we hadn't heard before

01:03:09 ◼   ► is we know that Apple had to move,

01:03:11 ◼   ► it had to have its iCloud servers in China

01:03:13 ◼   ► in a data center owned by a Chinese company.

01:03:16 ◼   ► That was a law in China.

01:03:19 ◼   ► And if you're in, Apple has always said,

01:03:21 ◼   ► if you're in a country, you gotta follow their laws.

01:03:23 ◼   ► That's just how it is.

01:03:24 ◼   ► We've assumed that because they're in the data centers,

01:03:30 ◼   ► that that means that the Chinese government

01:03:33 ◼   ► or at least the Chinese corporation

01:03:35 ◼   ► that will do what the government says

01:03:37 ◼   ► has access to the encryption keys

01:03:40 ◼   ► for those iCloud accounts.

01:03:42 ◼   ► This report says that's not the case,

01:03:44 ◼   ► that Apple has managed to hold onto the encryption keys

01:03:48 ◼   ► of its customers in China.

01:03:49 ◼   ► It doesn't necessarily mean anything

01:03:51 ◼   ► because if the Chinese government says,

01:03:52 ◼   ► I need you to decrypt this thing,

01:03:54 ◼   ► then they probably would have to do it

01:03:57 ◼   ► because it's probably the law in China.

01:03:59 ◼   ► But I thought that was an interesting little detail

01:04:02 ◼   ► of Apple trying to negotiate like a level

01:04:06 ◼   ► that they're comfortable with

01:04:08 ◼   ► and that the Chinese government is comfortable with.

01:04:10 ◼   ► And it is a two-way street.

01:04:12 ◼   ► And there are sometimes functionaries

01:04:14 ◼   ► in certain parts of China that say,

01:04:15 ◼   ► we want you to do this thing.

01:04:16 ◼   ► And Apple's looking around like,

01:04:18 ◼   ► is this the Chinese government

01:04:20 ◼   ► or is it that guy who wants us to do this thing?

01:04:23 ◼   ► And then like working their political connections

01:04:25 ◼   ► in other parts of China or at a higher level

01:04:27 ◼   ► in order to get some of that stuff

01:04:30 ◼   ► kind of swept off the board or they look the other way.

01:04:33 ◼   ► Just fascinating detail.

01:04:35 ◼   ► This is a huge, huge complex,

01:04:38 ◼   ► I mean, this really is like international relations

01:04:41 ◼   ► essentially between this enormous corporate entity

01:04:43 ◼   ► and this enormous government entity.

01:04:46 ◼   ► And so I guess my takeaway from this, number one,

01:04:49 ◼   ► is anybody who simplifies the Apple-China relationship

01:04:53 ◼   ► is doing it a disservice,

01:04:54 ◼   ► 'cause it's way more complicated.

01:04:55 ◼   ► And you really need to portray it

01:04:57 ◼   ► as being an incredibly complex series of concessions

01:05:01 ◼   ► and investments and give and take.

01:05:04 ◼   ► It's definitely not the case

01:05:06 ◼   ► that you can just roll on into China

01:05:08 ◼   ► and do whatever you want and pay your taxes

01:05:10 ◼   ► and be done with it.

01:05:11 ◼   ► The Chinese government has some very particular things

01:05:13 ◼   ► they want you to do,

01:05:14 ◼   ► which is why Apple is putting money

01:05:16 ◼   ► into various things in China.

01:05:18 ◼   ► but Apple has also gotten back.

01:05:21 ◼   ► Like the best example in the article is the US

01:05:27 ◼   ► and other countries in the West

01:05:31 ◼   ► have basically made Huawei persona non grata.

01:05:36 ◼   ► China's homegrown top ranked smartphone company.

01:05:41 ◼   ► - Which seemed to have been a move that was surely

01:05:43 ◼   ► like just to spite China.

01:05:45 ◼   ► Like there's no-

01:05:46 ◼   ► - Well, there's some feeling that,

01:05:48 ◼   ► - I mean, we-- - It's purely a feeling though,

01:05:50 ◼   ► like about Huawei.

01:05:51 ◼   ► - Yeah, I don't know the details.

01:05:52 ◼   ► There are accusations that Huawei was doing some bad stuff,

01:05:56 ◼   ► but-- - It's never been proven.

01:05:57 ◼   ► - It would have been very easy,

01:05:59 ◼   ► and this article points this out,

01:06:00 ◼   ► for China to retaliate by making things hard for Apple

01:06:05 ◼   ► in China, because, ha ha, take that,

01:06:08 ◼   ► Americans who ruined our phone maker,

01:06:10 ◼   ► we're gonna ruin yours, and it didn't happen.

01:06:13 ◼   ► And this article suggests that one of the reasons

01:06:15 ◼   ► it didn't happen is because Apple has made

01:06:17 ◼   ► a lot of effort to be connected to the powers that be in China, and it's an intertwined

01:06:23 ◼   ► relationship that is not, would not be the easy retaliatory move because it would hurt

01:06:29 ◼   ► China as much maybe as it would hurt the US, and so they didn't do it. And that's the value

01:06:36 ◼   ► that Apple gets out of that. So, I don't know, again, you've got to look through the lens

01:06:42 ◼   ► of how you feel about China, and that's going to be how you're going to feel. I take away

01:06:46 ◼   ► from this most of all that this is exactly or even more as complicated a relationship,

01:06:54 ◼   ► as difficult a relationship as you might expect. There's a lot of moving parts and a lot of

01:06:59 ◼   ► effort and a lot of people at Apple who have worked very hard to navigate all of the constraints

01:07:06 ◼   ► of this particular market. And you know, Apple does this with the European Union too, right?

01:07:11 ◼   ► And Apple does this with the US government too.

01:07:14 ◼   ► It's not just China.

01:07:16 ◼   ► China's challenges are unique,

01:07:19 ◼   ► but it's not like big companies like this don't need

01:07:21 ◼   ► to have all sorts of ways that they navigate

01:07:24 ◼   ► the rules required by them.

01:07:26 ◼   ► And or in Russia is a good example, right?

01:07:28 ◼   ► Where they navigated that you must install these apps

01:07:31 ◼   ► and got to a place where they got put up a screen

01:07:33 ◼   ► that says, here are some apps,

01:07:34 ◼   ► which is not what the law was initially supposed to be,

01:07:37 ◼   ► but somehow they made that happen.

01:07:39 ◼   ► So, you know, this is, they do it everywhere.

01:07:41 ◼   ► It's just that China is this enormous market

01:07:43 ◼   ► that Tim Cook has been focused on.

01:07:45 ◼   ► And yeah, can't say enough good things

01:07:47 ◼   ► about Wayne Ma's article,

01:07:48 ◼   ► because it really does paint a detailed picture

01:07:51 ◼   ► of just how complicated this whole thing is.

01:07:53 ◼   ► - Yeah, it's like I've been saying for a long time,

01:07:55 ◼   ► like Tim Cook is basically one of the most powerful people

01:08:00 ◼   ► on the planet, like more powerful

01:08:03 ◼   ► than world leaders of many countries.

01:08:05 ◼   ► - I mean, it depends on how you determine power,

01:08:09 ◼   ► But I mean, yeah, I think we do live in a world

01:08:11 ◼   ► where corporations are incredibly powerful,

01:08:13 ◼   ► and Apple is one of those corporations.

01:08:15 ◼   ► They have huge resources and huge influence.

01:08:18 ◼   ► And that's why I liked that New York Times story

01:08:20 ◼   ► saying that he's kind of the US ambassador,

01:08:22 ◼   ► especially at a point when the relations were very, very,

01:08:26 ◼   ► very negative, very bad

01:08:27 ◼   ► between the US administration and China.

01:08:31 ◼   ► And this is, yeah, I mean,

01:08:34 ◼   ► how is this not the portrayal of a head of state, essentially?

01:08:38 ◼   ► - Well, he acts like one.

01:08:40 ◼   ► I mean, in a way that I think makes sense.

01:08:42 ◼   ► But like, you know, like every possible holiday

01:08:46 ◼   ► around the planet, right?

01:08:48 ◼   ► Like public holiday in every culture around the globe,

01:08:52 ◼   ► Tim Cook will wish people, you know, like--

01:08:55 ◼   ► - He's got a tweet for it.

01:08:56 ◼   ► - Happy whatever on that day, you know?

01:08:58 ◼   ► Like, in a way that the CEO of a company

01:09:02 ◼   ► doesn't need to do, right?

01:09:04 ◼   ► Like there is not, I don't believe, an expectation

01:09:07 ◼   ► on the CEO of a public company to wish, you know,

01:09:11 ◼   ► like happy whatever on whatever day it might be, right?

01:09:15 ◼   ► But he does it or it's done for him.

01:09:18 ◼   ► And in a way, it feels interesting.

01:09:20 ◼   ► I'll tell you, I came away from this piece,

01:09:23 ◼   ► feeling a little uncomfortable for one reason, right?

01:09:26 ◼   ► So, you know, I've said this so many times on this show

01:09:29 ◼   ► that people need to understand that Apple

01:09:33 ◼   ► is the biggest company in the world

01:09:35 ◼   ► and does things that the biggest company in the world will do,

01:09:40 ◼   ► which is this kind of stuff, right?

01:09:42 ◼   ► And I think people like to believe

01:09:44 ◼   ► that Apple doesn't do these kinds of things

01:09:47 ◼   ► because they love Apple

01:09:49 ◼   ► and think that Apple is above everything, you know?

01:09:51 ◼   ► Like is above big company stuff.

01:09:54 ◼   ► But the idea of a CEO of a company

01:09:57 ◼   ► doing some kind of secret backdoor deal with a government

01:10:00 ◼   ► makes complete sense in my mind.

01:10:02 ◼   ► The thing that I don't like about this is

01:10:05 ◼   ► Apple have never said anything about this,

01:10:07 ◼   ► and if it was the US, they wouldn't stop talking about it.

01:10:10 ◼   ► If they did this deal with the US government,

01:10:14 ◼   ► there would be 25 PR posts talking about it,

01:10:18 ◼   ► they'd have websites created to it,

01:10:20 ◼   ► but because it's China, they don't say it,

01:10:23 ◼   ► and that annoys me.

01:10:24 ◼   ► - I guess what I would say to that is that

01:10:26 ◼   ► I think some of the stuff they do say,

01:10:28 ◼   ► they say it in China,

01:10:29 ◼   ► like that there are events in China and they appear

01:10:31 ◼   ► and it gets on the news in China

01:10:33 ◼   ► and it's part of the feel-good message

01:10:37 ◼   ► to whatever country you're in, I guess.

01:10:39 ◼   ► - Yeah, possibly, but Apple tell the whole world

01:10:41 ◼   ► about their US stuff.

01:10:42 ◼   ► - Yeah, that's true.

01:10:43 ◼   ► That's not how China works. (laughs)

01:10:44 ◼   ► - I know, but why not say,

01:10:49 ◼   ► we have invested $275 billion into the Chinese economy?

01:10:53 ◼   ► Why not say that?

01:10:55 ◼   ► But they won't, and I know why they won't,

01:10:57 ◼   ► and that's what annoys me about it.

01:10:58 ◼   ► - Yeah. - You know?

01:11:00 ◼   ► And again, I think there are a lot of legitimate reasons

01:11:04 ◼   ► to dislike the Chinese government

01:11:09 ◼   ► and the Chinese Communist Party.

01:11:12 ◼   ► I get it, I totally get it.

01:11:14 ◼   ► At the same time, it's one thing to have

01:11:17 ◼   ► your personal beliefs, and it's another thing

01:11:21 ◼   ► when you're the person in charge

01:11:23 ◼   ► of a giant profit-making corporation.

01:11:25 ◼   ► And this is the path that Tim Cook has decided to walk.

01:11:28 ◼   ► I think that in some ways he's been validated in his approach because there was a time when

01:11:38 ◼   ► the consensus was you put companies from the West into China and it changes China.

01:11:47 ◼   ► And the truth is it did change China in one way, which is Chinese society is more egalitarian

01:11:55 ◼   ► than it used to be.

01:11:57 ◼   ► a much larger middle class than there used to be. And they have a form of capitalism

01:12:05 ◼   ► and private property and things that a traditional communist country would not have, right? And

01:12:11 ◼   ► they become an economic engine. But there was this other fantasy that the existence

01:12:15 ◼   ► of countries from the West in China was going to make it a free country politically, and

01:12:22 ◼   ► hasn't happened. Quite the opposite, in fact. It's become less so, and more authoritarian

01:12:30 ◼   ► over time recently. And now they have a leader who's basically a president for life, if he

01:12:34 ◼   ► wants to be. So the question then is, well, do you do business there or not? And you can

01:12:42 ◼   ► walk away. I think Apple's argument would be, what does walking away get anybody? And

01:12:49 ◼   ► Apple, Apple feels like it can be, it's beneficial for Apple as a company and

01:12:55 ◼   ► it's also beneficial for the people in China and that they think it's, you might

01:13:00 ◼   ► as well be in the, in the game. If you're gonna be in the game, be in every

01:13:04 ◼   ► country and, and participate in how they, in how they do business. I totally see

01:13:11 ◼   ► the other argument which is, you can't, you can't and you got to walk away. I

01:13:16 ◼   ► I think the truth is Apple was so entwined with China in terms of manufacturing that

01:13:23 ◼   ► was going to be really hard to walk away.

01:13:26 ◼   ► And so Tim Cook was like, well, we're going to do the other one then we're going to make

01:13:29 ◼   ► close ties so they can't walk away from us and we can't walk away from them.

01:13:36 ◼   ► And also just going to say it, Tim Cook is the CEO of a big profit seeking company, and

01:13:42 ◼   ► there's a lot of money to be made in China and that's one of his decisions and you can

01:13:45 ◼   ► like that or dislike that, but I think that that is clearly part of it too. And so, you

01:13:48 ◼   ► know, this is not just Apple too, right? Like there's a lot of pressure right now on the

01:13:51 ◼   ► International Olympic Committee, which is about to have the Winter Olympics in China.

01:13:56 ◼   ► The women's tennis tour just canceled all their events in China because one of their

01:14:00 ◼   ► tennis players made a sexual assault allegation against a former high-ranking part of the

01:14:06 ◼   ► Chinese government, and then she basically disappeared. And then when she reappeared,

01:14:10 ◼   ► It was in staged videos that said, "I'm fine,"

01:14:12 ◼   ► but nobody believes that she's actually fine.

01:14:15 ◼   ► And so the one group has basically said,

01:14:17 ◼   ► "We're out of China

01:14:18 ◼   ► because we can't guarantee the safety of our members."

01:14:21 ◼   ► And yet you look at the IOC, and the IOC said,

01:14:24 ◼   ► "Did you see that video where she said she was fine?

01:14:27 ◼   ► Everything's great because they're about to do an event

01:14:29 ◼   ► in China, and they're tightly tied to China."

01:14:32 ◼   ► It's complicated, and everybody's going

01:14:34 ◼   ► to make different decisions.

01:14:35 ◼   ► And I think if you want to say Apple is wrong

01:14:38 ◼   ► to play ball with China in any way,

01:14:40 ◼   ► I think that's a perfectly valid opinion.

01:14:41 ◼   ► I think that what's great about this article

01:14:43 ◼   ► is you can see that you can see all the consequences

01:14:47 ◼   ► of them playing ball in China for good and for ill.

01:14:50 ◼   ► It lays it all out.

01:14:52 ◼   ► It's hard and complicated.

01:14:53 ◼   ► And it's a path that Tim Cook has decided to walk.

01:14:55 ◼   ► And as we've discussed several times on this podcast,

01:14:58 ◼   ► at this point, it would be impossible

01:15:02 ◼   ► for them to unwind this relationship.

01:15:04 ◼   ► It really would.

01:15:06 ◼   ► Because at this point, Apple's so much more intertwined

01:15:08 ◼   ► that if they were to walk away,

01:15:11 ◼   ► I think there would be even more retaliation against Apple.

01:15:13 ◼   ► And as we've said, Apple kind of doesn't have a plan B

01:15:17 ◼   ► for its entire manufacturing process.

01:15:21 ◼   ► And maybe it's trying to build one in the background,

01:15:23 ◼   ► but for right now, Apple can't get out of China.

01:15:26 ◼   ► It just can't because it makes its products in China

01:15:29 ◼   ► and it's just too tightly tied.

01:15:31 ◼   ► And that's, I would call that a liability.

01:15:34 ◼   ► I would say that you always wanna have,

01:15:36 ◼   ► you don't wanna have some piece of the puzzle.

01:15:37 ◼   ► it's the Steve Jobs thing, right?

01:15:39 ◼   ► Like if it's something important,

01:15:40 ◼   ► you shouldn't just have to rely on someone else for it.

01:15:42 ◼   ► Well, Apple is kind of relying on it on China

01:15:45 ◼   ► for this major part of their business.

01:15:47 ◼   ► And that may be one of the motivating factors

01:15:50 ◼   ► in them doing all of this to connect with China

01:15:54 ◼   ► is it makes it almost impossible for China to kick Apple out.

01:15:59 ◼   ► And that's good because Apple has no plan B

01:16:03 ◼   ► for a lot of what it manufactures.

01:16:05 ◼   ► - And it's not just the manufacturing

01:16:07 ◼   ► because they wanna sell them there too

01:16:09 ◼   ► because it's the biggest market.

01:16:11 ◼   ► - Yeah, they wanna make money,

01:16:12 ◼   ► but I would say that there are two things going on here.

01:16:14 ◼   ► There's, do you participate in the market?

01:16:16 ◼   ► And there's, are you using China to make your stuff?

01:16:19 ◼   ► And if you're just using China to make your stuff

01:16:22 ◼   ► and not participating in the market,

01:16:23 ◼   ► I feel like you're more open to retaliation.

01:16:26 ◼   ► You don't have those tight ties.

01:16:28 ◼   ► So it would be easier for China

01:16:30 ◼   ► to threaten Apple's supply chain.

01:16:33 ◼   ► And I think that's the choice that Tim Cook made,

01:16:35 ◼   ► is no, we're gonna make tighter ties

01:16:36 ◼   ► and we're gonna get into that huge market

01:16:38 ◼   ► and it's gonna make us money,

01:16:39 ◼   ► but it's also gonna tie us to China.

01:16:41 ◼   ► The problem is that their manufacturing base

01:16:43 ◼   ► still is tied to China.

01:16:45 ◼   ► And as we saw during some of the days in COVID,

01:16:48 ◼   ► like when the Chinese factories shut down,

01:16:50 ◼   ► it's like, well, Apple doesn't have a plan B for this.

01:16:52 ◼   ► So maybe they wanna work on that in the background

01:16:55 ◼   ► over the next decade, we'll see.

01:16:56 ◼   ► - This episode of Upgrade is brought to you by Setapp.

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01:18:31 ◼   ► Let's finish up with some #AskUpgradeQuestions.

01:18:34 ◼   ► - Did you like Dan's lasers, by the way?

01:18:38 ◼   ► - I did like Dan's lasers, actually.

01:18:39 ◼   ► - He did some lasers, it was fun.

01:18:41 ◼   ► - They were different, but they were good.

01:18:42 ◼   ► - They were, they were space spy lasers,

01:18:44 ◼   ► which is the best kind, probably.

01:18:47 ◼   ► Tim asks, "In reviewing e-readers, do you go into great detail about the advantages

01:18:52 ◼   ► of buttons to turn the page versus swiping and tapping on the screens?

01:18:56 ◼   ► What are your thoughts on scrolling instead of page turning?"

01:19:00 ◼   ► Well, on e-ink, scrolling is not an option.

01:19:04 ◼   ► I had that Android-based e-ink reader, the Bux Nova Air, that I tried, and since it's

01:19:12 ◼   ► running Android apps, you could scroll and it's E-ink is just not, no, it's a bad interface

01:19:19 ◼   ► for scrolling. It gets, it's super weird. Like it's really built for page turns. In

01:19:23 ◼   ► general, like if I'm reading on a, on a phone, I prefer page turns when I'm reading a book

01:19:28 ◼   ► to swiping and I don't know, cause I swipe through, I'm scrolling through, um, Twitter

01:19:35 ◼   ► and stuff like that. And I'm used to that scrolling through timelines. But, uh, the

01:19:40 ◼   ► truth is even there I mostly scroll up a page or thereabouts and then read down.

01:19:45 ◼   ► For reading, like, reading a novel where I know that I'm literally going on

01:19:50 ◼   ► forever and I'm just keeping on scrolling, like, I don't want to do that. I

01:19:54 ◼   ► would much rather be at rest and then read the whole page and then tap

01:19:58 ◼   ► or swipe to see the next page. That's just, I prefer that as a way to read

01:20:03 ◼   ► especially long things versus kind of internally scrolling. I have no opinion.

01:20:08 ◼   ► - No. - Okay, that's fine.

01:20:11 ◼   ► - Mark asks, "How many Christmas cards

01:20:13 ◼   ► you usually send out?"

01:20:14 ◼   ► - Oh, we are ordering, we just did this yesterday,

01:20:18 ◼   ► we are ordering like 140 or something like that.

01:20:21 ◼   ► - Wow.

01:20:22 ◼   ► - We have a spreadsheet with everybody's addresses in it

01:20:25 ◼   ► and then we send those out.

01:20:28 ◼   ► So yeah, it's about 140 I think that we are ordering.

01:20:32 ◼   ► - So we do like 30 or 40.

01:20:34 ◼   ► - Okay.

01:20:35 ◼   ► And we only do this because we have so many American friends.

01:20:39 ◼   ► Like, the idea of sending Christmas cards to everyone you know,

01:20:45 ◼   ► not so much of a thing in the UK.

01:20:48 ◼   ► Maybe to like family, but outside of that,

01:20:53 ◼   ► it doesn't really happen.

01:20:54 ◼   ► Like, you know, like, if I wouldn't send

01:20:59 ◼   ► and had never sent a Christmas card to any of my friends

01:21:02 ◼   ► and their families before I started getting on the Christmas card lists of American friends.

01:21:08 ◼   ► Then we start sending them out to everyone. And now some of my UK based family friends

01:21:15 ◼   ► or like friends and like my UK based friends get cards. So like I will send a card to James

01:21:21 ◼   ► Thompson and Saskia this year like so I do every year. Well this is the other thing I

01:21:26 ◼   ► wanted to get to in a second but only because James is used to getting them from Americans

01:21:31 ◼   ► and therefore has also sent, right?

01:21:33 ◼   ► So now the people, like the families living in the UK

01:21:36 ◼   ► that also have American friends also get cards

01:21:39 ◼   ► because we're all sending them out anyway.

01:21:41 ◼   ► - I have our spreadsheet here, 135 entries, 134,

01:21:44 ◼   ► 'cause there's a hetero, 134 entries.

01:21:46 ◼   ► - That is a big list.

01:21:48 ◼   ► So what I wanted to say and ask a secondary question of you

01:21:51 ◼   ► and maybe the upgradients, we're really late this year

01:21:54 ◼   ► because we've been traveling, because in other years,

01:21:56 ◼   ► what we have done is we've made them,

01:21:59 ◼   ► Academia has made a card and we get the card made.

01:22:01 ◼   ► We've used Moo a bunch of times in the UK to do that.

01:22:04 ◼   ► And then we write the cards and send them.

01:22:07 ◼   ► This year, we do not have the time to do that.

01:22:09 ◼   ► And I know that some people, some of my friends,

01:22:12 ◼   ► they use like a service to make the card

01:22:16 ◼   ► and they don't personalize the card

01:22:17 ◼   ► and they just send them to a bunch of people.

01:22:20 ◼   ► So I wanna know if you have a recommendation

01:22:23 ◼   ► for a service like that

01:22:25 ◼   ► because we don't have the time otherwise.

01:22:26 ◼   ► - Well, first off, I'm gonna extol the virtues

01:22:29 ◼   ► of the Happy New Year card.

01:22:30 ◼   ► - We're going with a Happy New Year card this year.

01:22:33 ◼   ► Yeah, that's what we're gonna do.

01:22:34 ◼   ► Like happy holidays and a happy new year.

01:22:36 ◼   ► That's what we're going with.

01:22:37 ◼   ► - Yeah, we're just going straight to Happy New Year.

01:22:38 ◼   ► And then in the US, I actually use paper culture,

01:22:42 ◼   ► which does ship internationally,

01:22:43 ◼   ► and you can upload a context file

01:22:46 ◼   ► and they will mail it out.

01:22:49 ◼   ► And so you can make a card with a message.

01:22:55 ◼   ► You could even potentially,

01:22:56 ◼   ► depending on whether they let you put an image,

01:22:58 ◼   ► you could even like sign it, but not personalize it.

01:23:02 ◼   ► I think we are gonna do a postcard.

01:23:04 ◼   ► So it's gonna have a picture on the front

01:23:05 ◼   ► and on the back, it's gonna have some text

01:23:07 ◼   ► saying what we did this year and happy new year.

01:23:10 ◼   ► And you can use their surface,

01:23:15 ◼   ► paper culture anyway,

01:23:16 ◼   ► use their service to have them mail it out,

01:23:19 ◼   ► or you can just have them mail you a box

01:23:21 ◼   ► and then you can get the stamps.

01:23:22 ◼   ► But for your contacts in the US,

01:23:25 ◼   ► at the very least, that might be a way to do it

01:23:27 ◼   ► because then they're just mailing in the US from the US

01:23:29 ◼   ► and you never have to deal with it.

01:23:31 ◼   ► So that's the one that I use.

01:23:32 ◼   ► I'm sure there are lots of them out there,

01:23:34 ◼   ► but I've been pretty happy with the quality

01:23:36 ◼   ► and they have a bunch of templates that are pre-made

01:23:37 ◼   ► so you can find one that you like.

01:23:38 ◼   ► - Do they send international too though?

01:23:40 ◼   ► - They will, from the US, yes.

01:23:42 ◼   ► - Oh, amazing, yeah, I mean, that's what we'll do.

01:23:44 ◼   ► - Yeah, I've done that.

01:23:45 ◼   ► - We would send international from the UK,

01:23:47 ◼   ► so if anything, this would be cheaper for us.

01:23:50 ◼   ► - I guess I'm saying that you might wanna,

01:23:52 ◼   ► depending on your balance,

01:23:53 ◼   ► you might wanna make a paper culture order to the US

01:23:56 ◼   ► and then find a place in the UK

01:23:58 ◼   ► and do a different order in the UK.

01:23:59 ◼   ► But that's up to you.

01:24:02 ◼   ► But yes, 'cause it might be a little funny

01:24:04 ◼   ► for international shipping for your card

01:24:06 ◼   ► to James in Saskia.

01:24:08 ◼   ► - We'll find out. - But that's up to you.

01:24:09 ◼   ► But anyway, I use that and it's good.

01:24:11 ◼   ► This year we're not having them mail it.

01:24:13 ◼   ► We are gonna mail those ourselves.

01:24:15 ◼   ► So we've saved a step, I guess,

01:24:18 ◼   ► or we've made an extra step for ourselves.

01:24:20 ◼   ► They'll wash us here and then we'll mail them out, yeah.

01:24:22 ◼   ► - You've saved them a step.

01:24:23 ◼   ► - I've saved them a step.

01:24:25 ◼   ► It is, I mean, it's cheaper if you mail it yourself,

01:24:27 ◼   ► but then you've got to mail it yourself.

01:24:28 ◼   ► So that's, it means that you can sign them, right?

01:24:32 ◼   ► But some years we have not done that.

01:24:33 ◼   ► Some years we've very much like, no, no, just mail them out.

01:24:36 ◼   ► We don't want to get it back.

01:24:37 ◼   ► - Ryan asks, Jason, when you do buy a, like, when, sorry,

01:24:42 ◼   ► when do you buy a book and when do you check out a book

01:24:45 ◼   ► from the library?

01:24:46 ◼   ► What's the difference for you?

01:24:48 ◼   ► - So many book questions after last week.

01:24:51 ◼   ► - You spoke about books for a while.

01:24:52 ◼   ► - My strategy these days,

01:24:53 ◼   ► since I've really gotten into using the Libby app

01:24:56 ◼   ► and OverDrive to check out books from my library,

01:24:58 ◼   ► is when I see a book I want,

01:25:00 ◼   ► I check and see if it's at the library.

01:25:02 ◼   ► And if it's at the library and it's not a book

01:25:04 ◼   ► that I need to read right this very minute,

01:25:06 ◼   ► I just put it on my library holds list

01:25:08 ◼   ► and it will come up and be part of the delightful surprise

01:25:12 ◼   ► about, "Oh, look, a book is available."

01:25:15 ◼   ► And, you know, it's fun to have the random books

01:25:20 ◼   ► come off the library stack.

01:25:22 ◼   ► If it's a book that is not available at the library

01:25:24 ◼   ► or as an ebook, or I want it and I want it now, I'll buy it.

01:25:29 ◼   ► So I don't have a problem buying eBooks,

01:25:32 ◼   ► but I am trying to be a little more disciplined of saying,

01:25:34 ◼   ► do I need to buy this or is this at the library?

01:25:36 ◼   ► And if it's at the library,

01:25:37 ◼   ► I'll just check it out from the library.

01:25:39 ◼   ► - That makes perfect sense.

01:25:41 ◼   ► Ryan asks, can focus modes change what is in your dock?

01:25:45 ◼   ► Like can it change,

01:25:46 ◼   ► like it can change what home screen is active?

01:25:49 ◼   ► - No, it cannot. - Nope.

01:25:50 ◼   ► - No, it cannot.

01:25:51 ◼   ► 'Cause all it's doing-- - Seems like a nice feature,

01:25:53 ◼   ► right, seems like that would be a good feature.

01:25:55 ◼   ► - Yeah, maybe.

01:25:57 ◼   ► I mean, yes, it would be.

01:25:58 ◼   ► But all it's doing is, it's not like changing anything

01:26:01 ◼   ► about the phone, right?

01:26:03 ◼   ► Like it's just changing what home screen is visible

01:26:06 ◼   ► in the way that like if you swipe between home screens,

01:26:08 ◼   ► it doesn't change what's in your dock

01:26:10 ◼   ► because the dock is fixed, right?

01:26:12 ◼   ► - I guess what I would say is that though,

01:26:14 ◼   ► that this is maybe what the Mac equivalent could be

01:26:18 ◼   ► of a focus mode change is like, first off,

01:26:22 ◼   ► the Mac just needs some way to automate

01:26:24 ◼   ► based on focus mode change, right?

01:26:26 ◼   ► Like in the system, it'd be nice if the system included

01:26:29 ◼   ► some things that you could do just like it does on iOS

01:26:31 ◼   ► and it doesn't do that.

01:26:32 ◼   ► And maybe that would be the doc, what's in the doc,

01:26:36 ◼   ► or maybe so you have different docs for different statuses,

01:26:39 ◼   ► or maybe it would show or hide the doc,

01:26:41 ◼   ► or maybe it would just be,

01:26:43 ◼   ► you can run a script or a shortcut.

01:26:46 ◼   ► - Oh, I see.

01:26:46 ◼   ► - You're saying like on the Mac,

01:26:48 ◼   ► the dock is like the home screen.

01:26:51 ◼   ► - Right?

01:26:51 ◼   ► I mean, it sort of is.

01:26:52 ◼   ► - Interesting.

01:26:53 ◼   ► - Unless you're using like launchpad or something.

01:26:55 ◼   ► (laughs)

01:26:57 ◼   ► Anyway, yeah, that was my thought was that the dock

01:26:59 ◼   ► could be sort of what the home screen is on iOS.

01:27:03 ◼   ► I don't know if it is.

01:27:04 ◼   ► I don't know if people would actually want that or not.

01:27:07 ◼   ► And maybe Apple looked at that and said,

01:27:09 ◼   ► "No, that's not something we wanna do."

01:27:10 ◼   ► But my greater frustration is that there's no way

01:27:14 ◼   ► to do big changes like that when focus modes change

01:27:17 ◼   ► on the Mac and that's a mistake.

01:27:19 ◼   ► They need to fix that.

01:27:21 ◼   ► - Yeah, that'd be interesting.

01:27:22 ◼   ► But yes, Ryan, you cannot change what is in the dock

01:27:25 ◼   ► on your iOS device via a focus mode change.

01:27:28 ◼   ► - Nope.

01:27:29 ◼   ► - It's just what's on the home screens.

01:27:31 ◼   ► Greg wants to know, final question today,

01:27:33 ◼   ► why does Jason have a different version

01:27:35 ◼   ► of the theme song than Myke does?

01:27:36 ◼   ► - Ha, well, Greg, first off, thanks for noticing.

01:27:41 ◼   ► Second, Greg is not a member, an Upgrade Plus member,

01:27:46 ◼   ► because the upgrade version for members

01:27:51 ◼   ► had the regular theme song.

01:27:53 ◼   ► I think that's how I did it.

01:27:54 ◼   ► - No. - So I have fun.

01:27:56 ◼   ► That was the opposite.

01:27:57 ◼   ► - You had the whole synth version in Upgrade Plus.

01:28:02 ◼   ► - Oh, okay, so Greg is a member.

01:28:04 ◼   ► Well then thank you for your support, Greg.

01:28:05 ◼   ► You got the bonus and regular listeners did not.

01:28:09 ◼   ► - So I did, I have fun when I added upgrade

01:28:13 ◼   ► 'cause it happens so rarely.

01:28:14 ◼   ► And although there is a version of the theme song file

01:28:16 ◼   ► that Myke uses every week,

01:28:18 ◼   ► we also have our complete version of the theme song

01:28:20 ◼   ► and we have the first version of the theme song

01:28:23 ◼   ► that Chris Breen did for us,

01:28:24 ◼   ► which had an electric guitar sound.

01:28:27 ◼   ► And I asked for it to be replaced

01:28:29 ◼   ► with a synthesizer sound instead,

01:28:33 ◼   ► because I thought it was more beepy boopy,

01:28:37 ◼   ► 80s-y kind of sound.

01:28:39 ◼   ► But we have both.

01:28:40 ◼   ► And so I often use the other one

01:28:43 ◼   ► because I think it's fun that there's this variation

01:28:45 ◼   ► that never gets played and that I can throw it in there.

01:28:47 ◼   ► Editing last week's show was interesting

01:28:50 ◼   ► 'cause it was, you know,

01:28:51 ◼   ► we now do two versions of the show.

01:28:53 ◼   ► And so I actually called Myke at some point

01:28:55 ◼   ► or I sent a Slack message to Myke

01:28:56 ◼   ► who was getting massaged at the time

01:28:57 ◼   ► and so that did not answer my question.

01:28:59 ◼   ► (laughing)

01:29:01 ◼   ► You did not receive the bat signal from your location

01:29:05 ◼   ► being relaxed in Hawaii.

01:29:07 ◼   ► So I had to just deal with this myself.

01:29:10 ◼   ► So basically what I did is I created the mega version,

01:29:12 ◼   ► turns out this is what you do,

01:29:13 ◼   ► a mega version of the show that has all the ads

01:29:15 ◼   ► and all the extras and save that.

01:29:18 ◼   ► And then I made two versions from there

01:29:19 ◼   ► and delete the ads and keep the extras in one version.

01:29:22 ◼   ► - So what I do in Logic, so I, yeah,

01:29:24 ◼   ► I do the whole thing, right?

01:29:25 ◼   ► Ads with the, all of the plus content,

01:29:29 ◼   ► all chaptered, right?

01:29:30 ◼   ► The whole thing.

01:29:31 ◼   ► Then I go to File, Save Copy As,

01:29:35 ◼   ► or like you can duplicate ads or something like that,

01:29:37 ◼   ► there is in Logic, there is an option to like create,

01:29:39 ◼   ► take this, but give it a different name.

01:29:41 ◼   ► - Yes.

01:29:42 ◼   ► - And so I do that and then I call that one plus,

01:29:44 ◼   ► then I remove the plus content

01:29:47 ◼   ► from what is the status show, bounce that out.

01:29:49 ◼   ► Then I go to the one called plus,

01:29:50 ◼   ► remove the ads, bring it all together.

01:29:52 ◼   ► So probably similar to what you did.

01:29:54 ◼   ► - Yeah, so what I did is I used the electric guitar version

01:29:56 ◼   ► in the plus version, which I built first.

01:29:59 ◼   ► And then I came over to the regular version

01:30:02 ◼   ► and I deleted all the intro stuff.

01:30:04 ◼   ► and I got to the music and I thought,

01:30:06 ◼   ► I'm just gonna use the regular intro here.

01:30:07 ◼   ► For why? I don't know.

01:30:08 ◼   ► I just decided maybe I deleted the electric guitar

01:30:12 ◼   ► and I thought, well, okay, I gotta put it back.

01:30:13 ◼   ► I'll just use it.

01:30:15 ◼   ► I don't always ape the exact timing of how you do it.

01:30:19 ◼   ► And in fact, in both versions,

01:30:21 ◼   ► the timing is a little bit different.

01:30:24 ◼   ► - I was disappointed in where you started.

01:30:25 ◼   ► - It's funny 'cause I actually know how you do it.

01:30:30 ◼   ► I just didn't wanna do it this time.

01:30:32 ◼   ► - And then you also didn't bring the volume of the music

01:30:34 ◼   ► down to a level that I would bring it down to.

01:30:36 ◼   ► - Yeah. - When I'm talking.

01:30:38 ◼   ► We all have our own ways.

01:30:39 ◼   ► - The problem with that, the intro that you've got

01:30:41 ◼   ► is you've got an intro that like fades and all that,

01:30:43 ◼   ► but it doesn't fade enough.

01:30:44 ◼   ► So you still have to manually fade it.

01:30:46 ◼   ► It's, hmm, anyway.

01:30:48 ◼   ► - Oh yeah, I have mine all manually faded.

01:30:50 ◼   ► Like, yeah. - Yeah, right, see?

01:30:52 ◼   ► So the answer is I could,

01:30:56 ◼   ► and there are episodes that I've edited

01:30:58 ◼   ► where I, including sometimes where Myke is on the episode,

01:31:01 ◼   ► but he can't edit it for some reason.

01:31:03 ◼   ► And I usually make those identical to the way Myke does it.

01:31:08 ◼   ► It's just that I kind of like it

01:31:11 ◼   ► when it's different and weird.

01:31:12 ◼   ► And that was an episode with Dan instead of me

01:31:15 ◼   ► and me instead of Myke.

01:31:17 ◼   ► And so it was from the moment we started,

01:31:19 ◼   ► it's clearly not the usual upgrade.

01:31:22 ◼   ► And so at that point I feel like,

01:31:23 ◼   ► okay, well then I'm not gonna even try

01:31:25 ◼   ► to make it sound exactly like upgrade because it's not,

01:31:27 ◼   ► it's a weird episode of upgrade.

01:31:29 ◼   ► - It's a nice upgrade.

01:31:30 ◼   ► That is the version of why that theme song changes

01:31:34 ◼   ► and it's a little bit different

01:31:36 ◼   ► just because I don't know, it's fun.

01:31:37 ◼   ► So when something like that is going on,

01:31:40 ◼   ► you know you're in for something special.

01:31:43 ◼   ► That's my story and I'm sticking to it.

01:31:45 ◼   ► - If you'd like to send in a question

01:31:47 ◼   ► for us to answer on the show next week,

01:31:49 ◼   ► send out a toot with the hashtag #AskUpgrade

01:31:51 ◼   ► or question mark #AskUpgrade.

01:31:52 ◼   ► And remember we are looking

01:31:54 ◼   ► for extra holiday themed questions for next week's episode.

01:31:58 ◼   ► So whatever it might be, holiday related,

01:32:00 ◼   ► send it in and we will answer it. Don't forget to go to upgradees.vote to get your vote in

01:32:06 ◼   ► for the upgradees. And don't forget about giving the gift of Relay. If you or someone

01:32:12 ◼   ► you know wants to join Relay FM for the next year, now is a great time to do so. Because

01:32:16 ◼   ► until December 17th, just a few more days, all of our annual plans are 22% off for new

01:32:21 ◼   ► subscribers. Go to giverelay.com to learn more and set up your gift. Thank you to everybody

01:32:26 ◼   ► that does sign up normally or has signed up. So yeah, you should go there. But if you want

01:32:30 ◼   ► to join monthly, you can go to get upgrade plus dot com and do that. Let me tell you

01:32:35 ◼   ► about one more show here on relay FM before we leave and that is Automators. If you like

01:32:38 ◼   ► this show, there's a good chance you'll have Automators because if you want to make your

01:32:41 ◼   ► devices do more for you, you can join David Sparks and Rosemary Orchard at relay.fm/automators

01:32:47 ◼   ► or search for Automators wherever you get your podcasts. Thanks for listening to this

01:32:51 ◼   ► week's episode of Upgrade and we'll be back next time. Thank you to Setapp, Ooni and DoorDash

01:32:57 ◼   ► for their support of this show. Until next week, say goodbye just in snow. Goodbye my Pearly.