Upgrade

00:00:00 ◼   ► [BEEP]

00:00:00 ◼   ► [MUSIC]

00:00:08 ◼   ► From Relay FM, this is Upgrade episode 390.

00:00:13 ◼   ► Today's show is brought to you by Memberful, New Relic, and Doppler.

00:00:17 ◼   ► My name is Myke Hurley and I'm joined by Jason Snell.

00:00:20 ◼   ► Hi, Jason Snell.

00:00:21 ◼   ► >> Doing great, Myke Hurley.

00:00:22 ◼   ► How are you?

00:00:23 ◼   ► >> Very well, my friend.

00:00:24 ◼   ► Very well indeed.

00:00:25 ◼   ► I have a hashtag SnellTalk question for you, as I always do.

00:00:28 ◼   ► and this one comes from Nathan,

00:00:30 ◼   ► and Nathan wants to know,

00:00:31 ◼   ► Jason, what do you use for your profile picture on macOS?

00:00:36 ◼   ► - Oh, Nathan, I have auto login set up.

00:00:41 ◼   ► So is this the thing that comes up

00:00:45 ◼   ► when you have to put in your password?

00:00:46 ◼   ► Is that what this is?

00:00:47 ◼   ► - Yeah, you see a little icon, right?

00:00:49 ◼   ► Or if you go to, what is it, system,

00:00:51 ◼   ► it's in system preferences,

00:00:54 ◼   ► and then users. - Oh, I have a,

00:00:55 ◼   ► - And yeah, so it's, I have,

00:00:57 ◼   ► it's actually the same picture that I have on Twitter.

00:00:59 ◼   ► It is, at least on my iMac,

00:01:01 ◼   ► it is an illustration of me,

00:01:04 ◼   ► a profile that was done for all the speakers

00:01:08 ◼   ► at the OOL conference one year.

00:01:10 ◼   ► And I liked it and I put it as my Twitter pic

00:01:14 ◼   ► and it still is.

00:01:15 ◼   ► And it's also my picture for login purposes on my iMac.

00:01:20 ◼   ► That's it.

00:01:21 ◼   ► - I have a question.

00:01:22 ◼   ► - Uh-huh.

00:01:23 ◼   ► - See, this is one of those things.

00:01:24 ◼   ► But I say like sometimes people ask us lots,

00:01:27 ◼   ► we get lots of great AskUp great questions

00:01:28 ◼   ► and Snail Talk questions.

00:01:30 ◼   ► But sometimes these questions are like,

00:01:32 ◼   ► why doesn't Apple X, like I think we could never answer.

00:01:36 ◼   ► So a lot of the times, most of our answers would be,

00:01:40 ◼   ► I don't know, so like I don't put them in the show,

00:01:43 ◼   ► but they are legitimately good questions,

00:01:45 ◼   ► but we just have no answer for them.

00:01:47 ◼   ► But here's one of them where it's like,

00:01:48 ◼   ► in System Preferences, there is a picture for me, right?

00:01:53 ◼   ► which is my Apple ID picture.

00:01:55 ◼   ► But that's not the same picture as my user picture.

00:01:59 ◼   ► And when you try to select your user picture,

00:02:02 ◼   ► you're not given that one as a suggestion.

00:02:04 ◼   ► You have to add it again.

00:02:06 ◼   ► And it's just kind of like,

00:02:07 ◼   ► why do we have multiple photos,

00:02:10 ◼   ► but none of them talk to each other?

00:02:12 ◼   ► - Yeah, and it really wants me to use a Memoji.

00:02:15 ◼   ► - Big time, big time.

00:02:17 ◼   ► Like it's an entire category

00:02:19 ◼   ► of the user image selection part.

00:02:22 ◼   ► And I hate, I hate Memojis.

00:02:25 ◼   ► - I'm not into it, no.

00:02:27 ◼   ► - I don't like the art style.

00:02:28 ◼   ► Lex, who did the Ricky's website,

00:02:35 ◼   ► added Memojis for me and John Voorhees

00:02:38 ◼   ► and James Thompson for reasons.

00:02:40 ◼   ► And I think it's legitimately the best Memoji of me,

00:02:44 ◼   ► he did a better job than I have done.

00:02:46 ◼   ► - It's the same for everybody.

00:02:48 ◼   ► Lex did a better job for everyone.

00:02:50 ◼   ► - Your internal idea of what you look like

00:02:53 ◼   ► versus the idea of someone else about who you are,

00:02:56 ◼   ► that's like a way better picture.

00:02:58 ◼   ► That does a way better job.

00:03:00 ◼   ► But I don't want a Memoji as my Apple ID icon.

00:03:03 ◼   ► You're right about the login thing.

00:03:05 ◼   ► What I find funny is that my login user image

00:03:09 ◼   ► for my laptop is something totally different

00:03:12 ◼   ► because they don't have it together

00:03:14 ◼   ► to get those things all to be connected.

00:03:17 ◼   ► - Well, the thing that Memoji,

00:03:20 ◼   ► always remained a frustration for me and I just can't understand why they haven't found a way to do it, which is like

00:03:25 ◼   ► Why can't it just be like emoji like my emoji just can be my face

00:03:30 ◼   ► Which is what we always thought they were adding in the first place, right?

00:03:33 ◼   ► So like right I could send you what is actually an emoji

00:03:36 ◼   ► But it's actually me like all of this stuff is would be doable if they wanted to do it

00:03:40 ◼   ► But they just didn't do it and they didn't want to do it. Right, right. I just checked on my laptop

00:03:44 ◼   ► I have a photo of me which I know what happened there. It's actually a photo of me from

00:03:48 ◼   ► that John Gruber took.

00:03:50 ◼   ► And the reason that it's my photo there

00:03:52 ◼   ► is that I had to go to the user

00:03:55 ◼   ► 'cause I got tired of looking at like a baseball.

00:03:59 ◼   ► And I chose edit and then it's like,

00:04:03 ◼   ► okay, now you gotta pick a file

00:04:05 ◼   ► and I searched for Jason as an image.

00:04:08 ◼   ► And I tried to find one that was a picture of me

00:04:11 ◼   ► and I put it in there and then I've left it.

00:04:13 ◼   ► And it's just, it's dumb.

00:04:14 ◼   ► But on my iMac, it's the Twitter,

00:04:18 ◼   ► illustration of me. The images that they have, the default images, are really weird, right?

00:04:23 ◼   ► So we've got like a bunch of flowers, like there's a rose, a dandelion, sunflower, another

00:04:30 ◼   ► sunflower, then there's like a gingerbread cookie, the yin yang, a lipstick kiss, fortune

00:04:36 ◼   ► cookie, some equations on a chalkboard, a number one, like a medal, then a lightning

00:04:43 ◼   ► I think that's like fruit of some kind and then a globe and a snowflake some like like sand

00:04:50 ◼   ► I guess like sand ripples is in a Zen

00:04:53 ◼   ► Garden a leaf a sand dollar. Is that what that's called? I try accidentally just selected as my own. Oh, no

00:05:00 ◼   ► Eggs blue eggs, right

00:05:05 ◼   ► Robbins eggs some bowling pins a dartboard tennis ball a football soccer ball and

00:05:10 ◼   ► And then a baseball, basketball, a basketball with a weird looking texture.

00:05:15 ◼   ► Yes.

00:05:16 ◼   ► Then American football, an eight ball from pool table, hockey, but like the hockey puck

00:05:24 ◼   ► and the stick, which is out of context with the rest of them because it's just the circular

00:05:30 ◼   ► parts.

00:05:31 ◼   ► Well, so is the American football because the whole idea here is it's cute because it's

00:05:33 ◼   ► a round icon and then they get the American football and they're like, "Mmm, yeah, it's

00:05:37 ◼   ► on grass."

00:05:38 ◼   ► Okay.

00:05:39 ◼   ► violin, a golf ball, violin, an LP, like a record, piano keys, a guitar, drums, an owl,

00:05:50 ◼   ► a zebra, an eagle, a parrot, and a penguin. That's like, one, that selection is madness.

00:05:58 ◼   ► It's bananas. Like it's just madness. It's never changed, like for as long as I've been

00:06:03 ◼   ► using the Mac, that's the selection and I don't know why they hang on to it.

00:06:08 ◼   ► So I have a server, right?

00:06:09 ◼   ► I have my Mac mini server.

00:06:11 ◼   ► Whenever I, it generally comes up when I'm upgrading

00:06:14 ◼   ► or I'm in a dialogue or something,

00:06:15 ◼   ► but occasionally I am prompted to have to change that, right?

00:06:19 ◼   ► Like I did an upgrade or I did a restore

00:06:21 ◼   ► or something like that.

00:06:22 ◼   ► And I always change it to random things.

00:06:26 ◼   ► And so I'm looking through here

00:06:27 ◼   ► and it's like a history of my server.

00:06:29 ◼   ► It's like, oh, water on a leaf.

00:06:31 ◼   ► Yes, I was water on a leaf on the server for a while.

00:06:36 ◼   ► - Gingerbread man, oh, gingerbread man.

00:06:39 ◼   ► Good times, good times.

00:06:41 ◼   ► I don't, yeah, it's super strange.

00:06:44 ◼   ► I guess they decided people like balls.

00:06:47 ◼   ► So they would like do a lot of balls and people like music.

00:06:49 ◼   ► So they would do a bunch of musical things.

00:06:50 ◼   ► - And birds. - And birds and a zebra.

00:06:52 ◼   ► (both laughing)

00:06:54 ◼   ► - Why is it just, it was everything?

00:06:56 ◼   ► - You know, the usual birds, owl, eagle, parrot,

00:06:59 ◼   ► penguin, zebra bird, sure.

00:07:02 ◼   ► - Someone just got very confused.

00:07:05 ◼   ► If you would like to send in a Snail Talk question

00:07:08 ◼   ► for us to open an episode of Upgrade,

00:07:11 ◼   ► just send out to it with the hashtag Snail Talk

00:07:13 ◼   ► or use question mark Snail Talk

00:07:14 ◼   ► in the Relay FM members Discord.

00:07:16 ◼   ► Some follow up items for you.

00:07:18 ◼   ► Jason joined me on stream last Friday

00:07:22 ◼   ► and we modified his Keychron keyboard

00:07:25 ◼   ► that we'd built together previously.

00:07:27 ◼   ► There is a stream archive of this available on YouTube.

00:07:32 ◼   ► I will put a link to that in the show notes

00:07:34 ◼   ► If you want to watch it, it's there.

00:07:36 ◼   ► If you want to see --

00:07:37 ◼   ► We basically stuffed Jason's keyboard

00:07:39 ◼   ► full of packing materials,

00:07:40 ◼   ► and it sounded a lot better.

00:07:42 ◼   ► -Yeah, the screams of teddy bears.

00:07:44 ◼   ► But it sounds -- They're very quiet.

00:07:47 ◼   ► And that's going to be coming to me, right?

00:07:49 ◼   ► -Yeah, it's being packaged up,

00:07:51 ◼   ► and it will be sent out to you probably this week.

00:07:54 ◼   ► -And we'll probably do, hopefully,

00:07:56 ◼   ► another stream where I receive it.

00:07:58 ◼   ► And we put it together. That'll be fun.

00:08:01 ◼   ► Dan Morin of Six Colors put together a podcast note workflow like yours that we spoke about

00:08:08 ◼   ► last week, but built in shortcuts.

00:08:11 ◼   ► Oh, okay.

00:08:12 ◼   ► So first off, it's a great idea, and I'm kicking myself not to think about it, and I think

00:08:16 ◼   ► this is really an instructive point, which is I—so I've been spending a lot of time

00:08:21 ◼   ► writing scripts in Python, and then this came up and I had to get, like, the creation date

00:08:27 ◼   ► of a file in the Finder and all of that, and I thought, "Okay, well, I'll just go to Apple

00:08:30 ◼   ► And that was my problem because I need to start thinking

00:08:34 ◼   ► about doing it in shortcuts, not in Apple script.

00:08:38 ◼   ► 'Cause it's actually much more accessible

00:08:41 ◼   ► and you don't have to know all the stupid finder scripting

00:08:43 ◼   ► that you have to know for Apple scripts.

00:08:44 ◼   ► And it's a very, actually quite easy to do

00:08:47 ◼   ► the same thing in shortcuts.

00:08:50 ◼   ► And so Dan did a great job of doing it.

00:08:53 ◼   ► And then, and there's a link to it on six colors,

00:08:56 ◼   ► but also what was funny is when he posted it,

00:08:59 ◼   ► He and I had gone back and forth about the best way

00:09:01 ◼   ► to format the time, because in the end,

00:09:04 ◼   ► what you get out is you're trying to find the difference

00:09:07 ◼   ► between the current time and the time you start a recording,

00:09:10 ◼   ► which is the creation date of the file.

00:09:12 ◼   ► And you can do math on dates in shortcuts,

00:09:15 ◼   ► and you get a result that's basically the number of seconds

00:09:19 ◼   ► between the two, which is great,

00:09:20 ◼   ► but number of seconds is not a great thing

00:09:22 ◼   ► to put in your show notes.

00:09:23 ◼   ► You want hour, minute, second in your notes you're taking

00:09:27 ◼   ► about your podcast.

00:09:29 ◼   ► So Dan and I went back and forth and like,

00:09:30 ◼   ► what's the most efficient way in shortcuts to do it?

00:09:32 ◼   ► Because in a scripting language,

00:09:34 ◼   ► there's a, you can do a one liner in Python

00:09:37 ◼   ► or in just shell scripting, you can do a one liner

00:09:40 ◼   ► and format the number of seconds as hour, minute, second.

00:09:43 ◼   ► And shortcuts, you can't.

00:09:45 ◼   ► It, so he did one method where he went to Python

00:09:49 ◼   ► and I was like, I think I can do it in shortcuts,

00:09:50 ◼   ► but I had to add like 10 steps

00:09:53 ◼   ► where it did all the division and all of that.

00:09:55 ◼   ► And then he figured out a way to do it using,

00:09:57 ◼   ► there's a calculate action,

00:10:01 ◼   ► do calculation basically in shortcuts

00:10:03 ◼   ► that you can do some stuff that Dan got it down much closer

00:10:08 ◼   ► 'cause you can do things like floor,

00:10:09 ◼   ► which is basically give me the result of this division

00:10:13 ◼   ► without the remainder.

00:10:15 ◼   ► And then, you know, there's also the command

00:10:17 ◼   ► that lets you do just the remainder.

00:10:19 ◼   ► And so he was able to do math

00:10:20 ◼   ► and get it down to fewer steps,

00:10:22 ◼   ► which as an aside, by the way,

00:10:24 ◼   ► boy, shortcuts needs to be better documented by Apple

00:10:27 ◼   ► because they have that calculation action

00:10:29 ◼   ► and it is incredibly powerful,

00:10:32 ◼   ► but you need to know how to use it.

00:10:33 ◼   ► And there's a get info box in shortcuts

00:10:37 ◼   ► that for each item and you click it and it says,

00:10:40 ◼   ► "You can use this to do a calculation."

00:10:43 ◼   ► It's like, guys, it's not good enough.

00:10:45 ◼   ► You gotta actually document these things.

00:10:47 ◼   ► It would be a real help to people who use shortcuts

00:10:50 ◼   ► if you would actually document how all the actions work.

00:10:54 ◼   ► So anyway, we post the story.

00:10:56 ◼   ► great thing happened, which is we had three different

00:10:59 ◼   ► readers come up with three completely different ways

00:11:02 ◼   ► to get it to be even shorter.

00:11:04 ◼   ► - Oh, good.

00:11:05 ◼   ► - In ways that show you how, I mean, it's this thing

00:11:09 ◼   ► about how computer programmers think,

00:11:10 ◼   ► like they don't think like the rest of us,

00:11:12 ◼   ► but in a kind of a brilliant, hilarious way.

00:11:15 ◼   ► My favorite one that got it down,

00:11:18 ◼   ► there were two that actually got it down

00:11:20 ◼   ► to like two steps fewer than Dan's.

00:11:23 ◼   ► But the one that made me really laugh is,

00:11:25 ◼   ► There's a way in shortcuts to say, to take a date,

00:11:28 ◼   ► like that modified date and say,

00:11:32 ◼   ► give me the date and time at the beginning of this day.

00:11:38 ◼   ► So it basically takes,

00:11:39 ◼   ► you can take like December 3rd at 1.22 PM

00:11:42 ◼   ► and it will come back with December 3rd at midnight, right?

00:11:47 ◼   ► It just the beginning of the day.

00:11:49 ◼   ► And then you add the seconds to it.

00:11:51 ◼   ► And now you've got December 3rd at 2.18 AM.

00:11:56 ◼   ► But if you use shortcuts to format that as a time,

00:12:02 ◼   ► you get 2.18 and number of seconds,

00:12:07 ◼   ► which is the timestamp you want.

00:12:09 ◼   ► And it's referring to an actual time during the day.

00:12:12 ◼   ► But if you format it as the time of your thing,

00:12:16 ◼   ► it doesn't matter, right?

00:12:17 ◼   ► It doesn't matter that it's a date

00:12:19 ◼   ► because all you really wanna do is get the time out of it.

00:12:21 ◼   ► So ingenious and also at the same time dumb

00:12:25 ◼   ► because there ought to be a better way to format times

00:12:27 ◼   ► in shortcuts than it.

00:12:29 ◼   ► But it was a fun little thing.

00:12:31 ◼   ► And not only did it teach me that there are like 10 different

00:12:34 ◼   ► ways to do something in shortcuts.

00:12:36 ◼   ► And the reason we went with something inside shortcuts

00:12:38 ◼   ► instead of going out to a shell script

00:12:40 ◼   ► or something like that is mostly because,

00:12:42 ◼   ► I mean, theoretically it means it works on the iPad.

00:12:44 ◼   ► I also just liked the idea that it's portable in that way.

00:12:47 ◼   ► I set you a different macro last week

00:12:50 ◼   ► And it didn't work for a while

00:12:51 ◼   ► 'cause it was like using scripting stuff

00:12:53 ◼   ► that's not installed in macOS

00:12:55 ◼   ► and other stuff is deprecated.

00:12:56 ◼   ► And it's like, if you can stay inside shortcuts,

00:12:59 ◼   ► it will just work, but you've got to do some extra work.

00:13:02 ◼   ► And major tip of the hat to Dan,

00:13:04 ◼   ► which is I really need to start thinking about,

00:13:05 ◼   ► can I do this in shortcuts before I ever go

00:13:09 ◼   ► to some other thing for a Mac utility?

00:13:12 ◼   ► Because shortcuts means it's probably,

00:13:15 ◼   ► if you can figure it out, it could be simpler.

00:13:18 ◼   ► and it means that you can hand that out to anybody

00:13:21 ◼   ► and they can just run it in a way that

00:13:23 ◼   ► Apple script is a little more complicated.

00:13:25 ◼   ► So that was a fun little incident that happened,

00:13:28 ◼   ► especially the one-upsmanship of everybody

00:13:30 ◼   ► trying to find a different way to solve the problem.

00:13:32 ◼   ► - Well, I guess luckily for you,

00:13:33 ◼   ► the person who thought to write it for Shortcuts

00:13:36 ◼   ► also publishes on your website.

00:13:38 ◼   ► - Yes.

00:13:39 ◼   ► - You know?

00:13:40 ◼   ► - It's perfect.

00:13:41 ◼   ► - Pretty helpful. - Synergy.

00:13:41 ◼   ► We just, yeah, we were talking about it

00:13:43 ◼   ► and Dan was like, "Should I post this?"

00:13:45 ◼   ► And I said, "Dan, any work you do

00:13:47 ◼   ► that's in any way related to computers

00:13:49 ◼   ► or things we've written about on Six Colors,

00:13:51 ◼   ► you should plumb those for posts.

00:13:53 ◼   ► That's how I live my life.

00:13:56 ◼   ► It's like, oh, I did a thing.

00:13:58 ◼   ► Let's write about it.

00:14:00 ◼   ► - You also, the Jason Snell special,

00:14:04 ◼   ► which is taking a topic we spoke about

00:14:07 ◼   ► and then thinking about it some more

00:14:08 ◼   ► and then writing an article about it.

00:14:10 ◼   ► And you did that for the iMac versus external

00:14:13 ◼   ► display decision, and you wrote a really nice article

00:14:15 ◼   ► about that on Six Colors.

00:14:16 ◼   ► So if you're interested in that discussion

00:14:19 ◼   ► from Ask Upgrade last week

00:14:20 ◼   ► and you want more of Jason's thoughts on it,

00:14:22 ◼   ► then there's a great article for you to go read.

00:14:24 ◼   ► - Yeah, I thought that was a really great topic

00:14:27 ◼   ► and it emerged from an Ask Upgrade question

00:14:30 ◼   ► and I didn't wanna just leave it as that.

00:14:32 ◼   ► I thought that would probably work as a post.

00:14:34 ◼   ► So I went and found the post.

00:14:36 ◼   ► - I think it's gonna be something we will come back to.

00:14:39 ◼   ► - Oh boy.

00:14:40 ◼   ► - A lot over the next six to nine months, I think, so.

00:14:43 ◼   ► - And if you listened to our discussion last time,

00:14:45 ◼   ► you'll see that my feelings have evolved a little bit

00:14:48 ◼   ► in the story and that's just the difference

00:14:50 ◼   ► between talking about it off the cuff

00:14:52 ◼   ► and thinking about it when writing an article.

00:14:55 ◼   ► And you're right, I think my feeling will involve more

00:14:57 ◼   ► because the end of that story is basically like,

00:14:58 ◼   ► look, I can tell you what I would do today.

00:15:01 ◼   ► But if you told me that I'm gonna,

00:15:03 ◼   ► you come from the future and say,

00:15:05 ◼   ► I actually did the other thing,

00:15:06 ◼   ► I'd be like, okay, I can see that.

00:15:07 ◼   ► Like, I'm not super baked into this.

00:15:09 ◼   ► But one thing that I think I really,

00:15:11 ◼   ► when I went through the thought process

00:15:13 ◼   ► that came back to me is that same idea,

00:15:14 ◼   ► which is if you wanna live the one Mac life,

00:15:18 ◼   ► because the truth is having two Macs

00:15:20 ◼   ► and getting them out of sync,

00:15:21 ◼   ► like we talked about, it kinda stinks.

00:15:23 ◼   ► If you can do it with one Mac,

00:15:25 ◼   ► those MacBook Pros are amazing.

00:15:27 ◼   ► If you don't need more power than a MacBook Pro,

00:15:29 ◼   ► and Apple comes out with an external display,

00:15:32 ◼   ► like, that's pretty good, right?

00:15:35 ◼   ► To not have a laptop and a desktop

00:15:37 ◼   ► and have to go back and forth between them,

00:15:39 ◼   ► it's pretty good.

00:15:40 ◼   ► Assuming that display is good,

00:15:43 ◼   ► you're going to put more money in up front,

00:15:45 ◼   ► but you're only going to need the one computer

00:15:48 ◼   ► instead of if you have a desktop and a laptop.

00:15:50 ◼   ► And I just, I'm reminded every time I travel

00:15:53 ◼   ► with my MacBook Air now that of what it was like

00:15:56 ◼   ► before I lived the kind of one computer life

00:15:59 ◼   ► when I had a MacBook Air as my primary back in the IDG days.

00:16:03 ◼   ► And now with the iMac Pro, which is you open it up

00:16:06 ◼   ► and you're like, oh yeah, this version of software is old

00:16:09 ◼   ► and I've got to reauthorize this

00:16:11 ◼   ► and I've got to run this update.

00:16:12 ◼   ► and this file isn't here, is it on Dropbox

00:16:16 ◼   ► or is it on my hard drive at home?

00:16:17 ◼   ► And it's a lot easier when you just have a computer

00:16:21 ◼   ► and it's with you all the time.

00:16:22 ◼   ► So that was my big lesson there is it makes me think

00:16:27 ◼   ► that it's possible depending on timing

00:16:29 ◼   ► that what I might choose to do is get a MacBook Pro

00:16:31 ◼   ► and an external display.

00:16:33 ◼   ► I probably won't, but again, if you came back

00:16:35 ◼   ► and told me that's what I decided,

00:16:37 ◼   ► I would not think it was ridiculous.

00:16:39 ◼   ► Be like, there are lots of options out there.

00:16:41 ◼   ► And thank you to listener Kieran who wrote in about this.

00:16:44 ◼   ► I ran out and got Kieran's tweet

00:16:47 ◼   ► and put it in the article, which was fun.

00:16:50 ◼   ► - The morning show has been renewed

00:16:52 ◼   ► for its third season, Apple TV+.

00:16:56 ◼   ► - I'll get around to watching season two sometime.

00:16:58 ◼   ► - It's really good.

00:16:59 ◼   ► Season two is really good.

00:17:00 ◼   ► It's better than season one.

00:17:02 ◼   ► They've got some changeover in showrunner.

00:17:04 ◼   ► Charlotte Stout is going to be the showrunner.

00:17:08 ◼   ► This is part of a multi-year overall deal that Stout has done with Apple.

00:17:13 ◼   ► So now, uh, Kerry Aaron, who was the showrunner previously, is going to be a

00:17:17 ◼   ► consultant for season three whilst developing new projects for their Apple deal as well.

00:17:22 ◼   ► So they're making some change.

00:17:24 ◼   ► Instead of grinding on a third season, that's probably good to keep it fresh.

00:17:27 ◼   ► Keep it fresh.

00:17:27 ◼   ► Yep.

00:17:28 ◼   ► And so, but, but also still involved, right?

00:17:30 ◼   ► So hopefully it will continue to keep its tone.

00:17:32 ◼   ► Um, so yeah, I'm really excited because I, I think that in season two.

00:17:38 ◼   ► the show really worked out what it is.

00:17:41 ◼   ► And so now I'm very excited with the hope

00:17:46 ◼   ► that they're going into season three understanding that,

00:17:49 ◼   ► that like the biggest benefit that this show

00:17:53 ◼   ► can actually have is if it actually mirrors the real world

00:17:58 ◼   ► and the timeframe that it's in.

00:18:00 ◼   ► Like in season one, it kind of accidentally did it.

00:18:03 ◼   ► And then in season two, they really lent into it.

00:18:07 ◼   ► And so I hope for season three,

00:18:09 ◼   ► they create the show with that in mind

00:18:11 ◼   ► and don't feel the need to completely rewrite the show again.

00:18:14 ◼   ► - Charles Statz's credits are Fosse/Verdon,

00:18:18 ◼   ► House of Cards, Homeland.

00:18:20 ◼   ► She's worked as a producer on all of those

00:18:22 ◼   ► and as a writer.

00:18:23 ◼   ► - Especially for this show,

00:18:24 ◼   ► that's a pretty great track record for this show.

00:18:28 ◼   ► That's like the pocket of what The Morning Show

00:18:31 ◼   ► is all about, I think.

00:18:32 ◼   ► So I'm pretty pumped for it.

00:18:34 ◼   ► And I'm really pleased that they've done it.

00:18:37 ◼   ► Apple is requiring that retail and corporate employees must submit proof of receiving their

00:18:42 ◼   ► COVID vaccine and booster or face frequent testing.

00:18:48 ◼   ► Apple have still not chosen to follow along with some tech companies in requiring vaccination

00:18:54 ◼   ► for their employees.

00:18:56 ◼   ► But they are now just, because I think previously they had, if you don't get vaccinated, you've

00:19:01 ◼   ► got to get tested a bunch.

00:19:03 ◼   ► they're saying if you don't get boosted you got to get tested a bunch. I remain really

00:19:11 ◼   ► surprised that they are not requiring vaccination at least at a corporate level. So this just

00:19:19 ◼   ► you know I keep seeing headlines about this and I'm like oh there it is oh no wait that's

00:19:24 ◼   ► not it so that this is just another of those situations where they're doing something but

00:19:29 ◼   ► but I don't think they're doing enough.

00:19:32 ◼   ► - Yeah, well, there are so many different ways

00:19:35 ◼   ► that the ongoing pandemic could go

00:19:37 ◼   ► that it'll be interesting to watch that.

00:19:39 ◼   ► I threw an item in here just to mention

00:19:43 ◼   ► because I want to just get everybody's head

00:19:45 ◼   ► thinking about this.

00:19:47 ◼   ► There was a New York Times article yesterday

00:19:49 ◼   ► about how there are some more COVID lockdowns happening

00:19:53 ◼   ► in China and it's all speculative

00:19:58 ◼   ► and it's sort of very much a we'll see what this does,

00:20:00 ◼   ► but the idea there is that that may lead to another ripple

00:20:05 ◼   ► of supply chain issues down the road, right?

00:20:08 ◼   ► 'Cause sometimes these things are immediate

00:20:10 ◼   ► and sometimes they-

00:20:11 ◼   ► - It doesn't surprise me at all.

00:20:13 ◼   ► - Yeah.

00:20:14 ◼   ► - Like, because really we didn't hit supply chain stuff

00:20:17 ◼   ► until now and that's coming from the 2020.

00:20:21 ◼   ► - Yeah.

00:20:22 ◼   ► - Beginning of this, you know?

00:20:23 ◼   ► - So I just say, keep an eye on the supply chain.

00:20:27 ◼   ► may be ongoing issues with supply chain stuff. And I'm interested in seeing Apple's results

00:20:34 ◼   ► are late next week. I'm interested to see if they make any statements about sort of

00:20:41 ◼   ► the state of the supply chain either during their statements or during their Q&A.

00:20:44 ◼   ► - I have to, right? I mean, because-

00:20:46 ◼   ► - Right, yeah. And maybe they'll give, they'll say, "No, we're looking good." Or they may

00:20:49 ◼   ► say, "Well, we're concerned about this thing over here and not that thing." And that's

00:20:52 ◼   ► actually the kind of thing that you can get out of an Apple results call that is informative,

00:20:57 ◼   ► right? It's like, tell me what an AR advisor says what, Tim? Tim would be like, "I don't

00:21:03 ◼   ► know what you're talking about." But if you say, "Tim, supply chain, what's going on?"

00:21:07 ◼   ► I think that's the kind of thing where they actually will disclose something about how

00:21:12 ◼   ► they're feeling because that has to do with what analysts want to know and investors want

00:21:16 ◼   ► to know, which is kind of long-term issues affecting the business. And it's something

00:21:20 ◼   ► that really is inside baseball in another sense,

00:21:22 ◼   ► where it's not about an Apple product or anything like that.

00:21:24 ◼   ► It's just about like, how are you weathering this?

00:21:27 ◼   ► And I'm looking forward to what they will say

00:21:30 ◼   ► because it is a really complex thing

00:21:32 ◼   ► and it's affecting different companies differently.

00:21:34 ◼   ► And this article made me raise an eyebrow basically

00:21:36 ◼   ► and say, oh boy, here's another wrinkle.

00:21:39 ◼   ► Here's another thing that may add more churn

00:21:42 ◼   ► into the already kind of messy situation

00:21:46 ◼   ► with the supply chain.

00:21:47 ◼   ► - I mean, like this was the quarter where,

00:21:49 ◼   ► their pre-guidance was like,

00:21:52 ◼   ► "Hey, we know we're not gonna sell what we wanna sell."

00:21:55 ◼   ► Like, it's kind of as simple as that.

00:21:57 ◼   ► - Yeah.

00:21:58 ◼   ► - This is the holiday quarter?

00:22:03 ◼   ► - This is the holiday quarter.

00:22:05 ◼   ► - So it should be the big one.

00:22:06 ◼   ► Like, you know, as history has gone,

00:22:09 ◼   ► this should have been, in theory, the biggest quarter.

00:22:11 ◼   ► - They have said it will be probably

00:22:13 ◼   ► their biggest quarter of all time,

00:22:15 ◼   ► even though they're gonna not sell as many things

00:22:18 ◼   ► as they thought they were gonna sell

00:22:19 ◼   ► because of the supply chain.

00:22:20 ◼   ► So we'll see.

00:22:22 ◼   ► That's next week.

00:22:23 ◼   ► I think that's a week from Thursday.

00:22:25 ◼   ► And so obviously then we will talk about it

00:22:28 ◼   ► on the January 31st episode of Upgrade.

00:22:33 ◼   ► - Which I'm always excited about.

00:22:34 ◼   ► - Yeah.

00:22:35 ◼   ► - This episode is brought to you

00:22:36 ◼   ► by our friends over at Memberful.

00:22:39 ◼   ► Memberful is the easiest way to sell memberships

00:22:42 ◼   ► to your audience used by the biggest creators on the web

00:22:44 ◼   ► to help you generate sustainable, recurring income

00:22:47 ◼   ► while diversifying your revenue stream.

00:22:50 ◼   ► Maybe the Your Business's financial situation has changed over the past couple of years.

00:22:55 ◼   ► And now you might need a proven solution that is quick to launch so you can stabilise your

00:23:00 ◼   ► business and help it grow.

00:23:02 ◼   ► Member4 handles the hard stuff so you can focus on what you do best while earning revenue

00:23:06 ◼   ► quickly while leaving you with full control and ownership of everything that relates to

00:23:11 ◼   ► your audience, brand and membership.

00:23:13 ◼   ► Member4 has everything you need to run a membership program.

00:23:16 ◼   ► includes an optimized checkout, Apple Pay, easy member management, dashboard analytics,

00:23:21 ◼   ► free trials, gift subscriptions and so much more. And Memberful seamlessly integrates with the tools

00:23:26 ◼   ► that you're already using, including lots of fully managed integrations with popular services

00:23:31 ◼   ► like WordPress, MailChimp, Discord and tons more. This is one of the easy things for us with

00:23:37 ◼   ► Memberful. When we were looking at relaunching our membership program, we could see they had

00:23:43 ◼   ► had a Discord integration, so it's super easy to manage.

00:23:46 ◼   ► And we were able to just write everything

00:23:50 ◼   ► in a way that integrated with some services

00:23:52 ◼   ► that we were already using.

00:23:53 ◼   ► And then over time, they've just added more stuff

00:23:56 ◼   ► so we don't need to use external services.

00:23:58 ◼   ► Like, they have their newsletter thing, I should say,

00:24:02 ◼   ► which you can have a paid newsletter now

00:24:04 ◼   ► if you've been before.

00:24:05 ◼   ► But we have a newsletter that is part of our membership program,

00:24:09 ◼   ► and we can just send those out.

00:24:10 ◼   ► So we had to have an external provider previously.

00:24:13 ◼   ► Now we just do it with Memberful.

00:24:14 ◼   ► So you don't need to connect with a third party email provider,

00:24:16 ◼   ► which also saves us money in the long run,

00:24:19 ◼   ► 'cause we were already on one of their,

00:24:21 ◼   ► they have a pro and premium plan.

00:24:23 ◼   ► I don't remember exactly which one we're on.

00:24:25 ◼   ► Steven handles that part.

00:24:26 ◼   ► But if there's no additional fee,

00:24:28 ◼   ► if you're on one of those plans, we were already on it.

00:24:30 ◼   ► So we acted up saving money

00:24:31 ◼   ► 'cause we could remove the newsletter provider

00:24:33 ◼   ► that we were on.

00:24:34 ◼   ► So it's super awesome.

00:24:36 ◼   ► We love Memberful here.

00:24:38 ◼   ► They are a wonderful company to work with.

00:24:40 ◼   ► They have really helped us have more confidence in the business over the last couple of years

00:24:46 ◼   ► and we also get to deliver more great content to our most engaged listeners.

00:24:53 ◼   ► So I think it's awesome.

00:24:54 ◼   ► So get started for free at memberful.com/upgrade with no credit card required.

00:24:58 ◼   ► That's memberful.com/upgrade.

00:25:00 ◼   ► Go there now, check it out and see what it could do for your business.

00:25:03 ◼   ► Our thanks to Memberful for their support of this show and Relay FM.

00:25:07 ◼   ► Rumour round up, Jason.

00:25:09 ◼   ► - Oh, I love a rumor roundup.

00:25:11 ◼   ► And again, thank you to a friend of the show, Mark Gurman,

00:25:13 ◼   ► for dropping all of his juiciest rumors on Sundays,

00:25:18 ◼   ► so that upgrade is fresh.

00:25:19 ◼   ► - Not just Mark today though.

00:25:21 ◼   ► We're gonna spread out a little bit.

00:25:22 ◼   ► We're gonna start with the well-known Apple rumor

00:25:26 ◼   ► publication, the New York Post.

00:25:28 ◼   ► - Ah, of course, classic.

00:25:31 ◼   ► - The New York Post is saying that Apple is said to be

00:25:34 ◼   ► in serious talks to acquire some of the broadcast rights

00:25:38 ◼   ► to Major League Baseball for Apple TV+.

00:25:41 ◼   ► I'll read a quote from 9to5Mac,

00:25:43 ◼   ► "Exact details of the deal were not disclosed,

00:25:46 ◼   ► "however the sports package believed to be on the table

00:25:50 ◼   ► "is weekday national games

00:25:51 ◼   ► "that were previously owned by ESPN."

00:25:55 ◼   ► - Right, so the idea here is the way baseball works,

00:25:58 ◼   ► and I know you and I have talked about

00:25:59 ◼   ► how baseball works in the past.

00:26:01 ◼   ► They open the gate, they roll the balls in,

00:26:02 ◼   ► that's how it happens.

00:26:04 ◼   ► - That's how it happens.

00:26:05 ◼   ► The ESPN has had a package where they basically show games

00:26:10 ◼   ► to their entire national ESPN audience that are,

00:26:15 ◼   ► if you're in a local market,

00:26:18 ◼   ► you see your local teams games,

00:26:19 ◼   ► but these are national games.

00:26:20 ◼   ► So they are showing games,

00:26:23 ◼   ► if you're in a different market

00:26:24 ◼   ► and you don't have like the MLB TV package

00:26:27 ◼   ► or something like that,

00:26:28 ◼   ► it's your opportunity to see games from other cities

00:26:32 ◼   ► and games that, you know, maybe your team isn't playing

00:26:35 ◼   ► and there's another baseball game on.

00:26:36 ◼   ► So it's not exactly an earth shattering kind of package,

00:26:41 ◼   ► but it does provide some content.

00:26:45 ◼   ► I would say it's about on the level

00:26:48 ◼   ► as the Amazon deal with the NFL,

00:26:50 ◼   ► where they've been, this is actually changing

00:26:53 ◼   ► and it's getting improved,

00:26:54 ◼   ► but Amazon's had a deal for a while

00:26:56 ◼   ► where they're basically like simulcasting the same game

00:27:00 ◼   ► that's on the NFL network.

00:27:03 ◼   ► So it's not like super exclusive, but it's interesting.

00:27:08 ◼   ► And I think that this makes sense in a way,

00:27:11 ◼   ► 'cause we've been talking for a while

00:27:12 ◼   ► about how Apple has been investing in this idea

00:27:15 ◼   ► of doing live sports as one of its things.

00:27:18 ◼   ► I wonder if this, we talked about like,

00:27:20 ◼   ► what would be the next Apple subscription service.

00:27:23 ◼   ► I wonder if this is not Apple TV Plus,

00:27:25 ◼   ► but is bundled in and is also available as a separate,

00:27:29 ◼   ► like Apple Sports kind of subscription at some point.

00:27:32 ◼   ► I don't know. Let's see what their plan is.

00:27:34 ◼   ► But even if they just roll it into Apple TV+,

00:27:37 ◼   ► this is a start, right?

00:27:38 ◼   ► And it might actually help get their feet wet,

00:27:41 ◼   ► get their toes wet on doing this thing where,

00:27:44 ◼   ► 'cause live streaming infrastructure is different.

00:27:47 ◼   ► You've gotta serve everybody immediately.

00:27:49 ◼   ► And the demand is essentially 100% at one moment.

00:27:54 ◼   ► Whereas anything you do on streaming, you put it on a CDN,

00:27:57 ◼   ► people watch it whenever,

00:27:59 ◼   ► and demand is smoothed out over time.

00:28:02 ◼   ► Live sports, it's all at once.

00:28:05 ◼   ► And so it's very, very different.

00:28:08 ◼   ► And this is, yeah, this is not an earth-shattering thing.

00:28:12 ◼   ► This is not like the playoffs

00:28:13 ◼   ► are gonna be on Apple TV+.

00:28:15 ◼   ► - That's not where you wanna start though, right?

00:28:16 ◼   ► For that exact reason, you just mentioned

00:28:18 ◼   ► you don't want the biggest, most popular sports

00:28:20 ◼   ► as your first thing 'cause you're gonna get in trouble.

00:28:22 ◼   ► - Right, and this lets them say,

00:28:24 ◼   ► and lets them promote in their app,

00:28:27 ◼   ► you know, the Reds are playing the Diamondbacks

00:28:30 ◼   ► on Tuesday night at six o'clock,

00:28:33 ◼   ► and you know, you can watch it for free on Apple TV Plus.

00:28:37 ◼   ► And that's regardless of if you have cable,

00:28:39 ◼   ► and it's regardless of if you have ESPN

00:28:42 ◼   ► or your local sports channel,

00:28:45 ◼   ► it's just on Apple TV Plus for you to watch.

00:28:48 ◼   ► And that's fascinating to me.

00:28:50 ◼   ► So we'll see.

00:28:51 ◼   ► I also wonder about, and this is similar to Amazon,

00:28:54 ◼   ► will they have somebody produce it for them

00:28:57 ◼   ► or will they have like an Apple TV+ crew?

00:29:01 ◼   ► I don't know how that ESPN package works

00:29:04 ◼   ► and whether they built their own broadcast

00:29:07 ◼   ► or whether they sort of reared the local.

00:29:08 ◼   ► I think they built their own broadcast for that.

00:29:10 ◼   ► So they might potentially need to be

00:29:12 ◼   ► like Apple TV baseball announcers and stuff,

00:29:14 ◼   ► which is kind of wild to think about Apple hiring--

00:29:17 ◼   ► - I could imagine them doing it similarly

00:29:19 ◼   ► to how they've done before,

00:29:20 ◼   ► where the first thing someone does it for them

00:29:23 ◼   ► and then they bring in their own team afterwards.

00:29:25 ◼   ► - They might hire somebody to do it.

00:29:26 ◼   ► I mean, the way baseball is configured,

00:29:28 ◼   ► you have a feed coming out of the stadium,

00:29:30 ◼   ► so that would be something that would be produced

00:29:32 ◼   ► in the stadium by the local crews.

00:29:36 ◼   ► But what Amazon ended up doing

00:29:38 ◼   ► was doing their own play-by-play and analyst on top of that.

00:29:42 ◼   ► And that could be produced, you know,

00:29:45 ◼   ► MLB actually has its own media arm.

00:29:47 ◼   ► They could produce it if they wanted to for Apple.

00:29:50 ◼   ► And that's probably all part of the deal.

00:29:52 ◼   ► But like, yeah, again, this is just the start.

00:29:54 ◼   ► and Apple is going to be playing in sports

00:29:57 ◼   ► at least a little bit.

00:29:58 ◼   ► They may decide it's not for them,

00:30:00 ◼   ► but right now they're in exploratory time

00:30:02 ◼   ► and they are gonna make some deals, I think.

00:30:04 ◼   ► - Yeah, this aligns with a report

00:30:06 ◼   ► from an investment firm called Wedbush

00:30:08 ◼   ► that says Apple is on an aggressive hunt

00:30:10 ◼   ► for live sports content.

00:30:12 ◼   ► So it seems like if there is a deal being done right now,

00:30:15 ◼   ► they are at the table trying to make that deal.

00:30:18 ◼   ► Mac Otakara is reporting that a new iPad Air

00:30:22 ◼   ► is set to be unveiled this spring.

00:30:25 ◼   ► It would feature an A15 bionic center stage 5G

00:30:29 ◼   ► and the same overall design.

00:30:32 ◼   ► - Yep. - Makes sense.

00:30:33 ◼   ► - Not surprising at all, other than to say,

00:30:35 ◼   ► yeah, that the iPad Air needs to get on sync

00:30:38 ◼   ► with like the mini.

00:30:40 ◼   ► And I think the thing here is just to say this, yeah.

00:30:43 ◼   ► And say this spring is when they're gonna do that.

00:30:45 ◼   ► They're gonna bring it up to speed,

00:30:46 ◼   ► A15 center stage, 5G, all the things that we're missing,

00:30:49 ◼   ► 'cause the iPad Air remember was ahead of the game,

00:30:51 ◼   ► but now it's been a little while.

00:30:53 ◼   ► So this makes perfect sense.

00:30:54 ◼   ► - No, it's behind.

00:30:56 ◼   ► - No, it was ahead of the game.

00:30:57 ◼   ► - Yeah.

00:30:58 ◼   ► - When it was released, it was ahead of the game.

00:30:59 ◼   ► Now it's behind the game.

00:31:00 ◼   ► Yes, the game has left it behind.

00:31:01 ◼   ► The game is over on Apple TV+ now apparently.

00:31:04 ◼   ► - The game has left the station, I think is the--

00:31:06 ◼   ► - Yeah, they rolled the balls back out and closed the door.

00:31:09 ◼   ► - Friend of the show, Mark Gurman is reporting

00:31:11 ◼   ► that Apple is considering delaying the announcement

00:31:15 ◼   ► of its mixed reality headset by at least a few months.

00:31:19 ◼   ► This is from Bloomberg.

00:31:21 ◼   ► The headset was targeted for an unveiling at WWDC in June, followed by a release later

00:31:26 ◼   ► in the year. But development challenges related to overheating, cameras and software have

00:31:31 ◼   ► made it harder to stay on track. This delay would see a late 2022 announcement with product

00:31:37 ◼   ► release in 23. Prior reporting from Germen suggested that this product was originally

00:31:42 ◼   ► scheduled to be announced in 2021, so this would be the second major delay that this

00:31:49 ◼   ► product line would see.

00:31:51 ◼   ► - I told you the maxim that we came up with on Liftoff,

00:31:54 ◼   ► which is whenever anything is late in the year,

00:31:56 ◼   ► that means it's going to be next year.

00:31:58 ◼   ► And here we are with late in the year.

00:32:02 ◼   ► Also my initial reaction to this was,

00:32:04 ◼   ► oh, I know what all the developers will be doing

00:32:06 ◼   ► over their holiday next year, this year,

00:32:09 ◼   ► is they're going to have an announced VR product

00:32:14 ◼   ► that isn't shipping yet.

00:32:15 ◼   ► So they'll be putting in all of their work

00:32:18 ◼   ► in late in the year and early in the following year.

00:32:21 ◼   ► So it may be a year out before they ship this thing.

00:32:23 ◼   ► But I think what Gurman is saying, at least right now,

00:32:26 ◼   ► is that they're still going to do what you, I think,

00:32:30 ◼   ► have suggested is probably the most likely scenario,

00:32:32 ◼   ► which is they'll do an event maybe in August,

00:32:37 ◼   ► maybe in October, or maybe even as part of the iPhone event,

00:32:42 ◼   ► which I think they might do because all eyes on that event,

00:32:47 ◼   ► even though it would be, you know,

00:32:48 ◼   ► the Apple Watch was launched in an iPhone event, for example.

00:32:51 ◼   ► So they might do that,

00:32:51 ◼   ► but like they're gonna do that fall,

00:32:53 ◼   ► late summer or fall event.

00:32:55 ◼   ► But in this scenario,

00:32:58 ◼   ► probably not ship it until early the next year.

00:33:02 ◼   ► - Yeah, one of the things that Mark mentions

00:33:05 ◼   ► is like this was similar from what he was hearing

00:33:08 ◼   ► with the original Apple Watch,

00:33:10 ◼   ► that the product kept getting pushed.

00:33:13 ◼   ► - Yeah.

00:33:14 ◼   ► - And you know, it's kind of like,

00:33:16 ◼   ► this is the second time that Apple's tried to introduce

00:33:18 ◼   ► a new category and is struggling to get it

00:33:20 ◼   ► over the finish line.

00:33:22 ◼   ► - It's hard.

00:33:23 ◼   ► It's hard, right?

00:33:24 ◼   ► Like it's hard to put out a new product

00:33:27 ◼   ► and you have to balance all those things too.

00:33:28 ◼   ► Like, is this something that's good enough to ship?

00:33:30 ◼   ► Do we need to fix this?

00:33:32 ◼   ► Because they want that first product to be viable, right?

00:33:34 ◼   ► They don't want that, like say what you will

00:33:36 ◼   ► about the original Apple Watch.

00:33:37 ◼   ► - You only get one shot at the first impression.

00:33:39 ◼   ► - Yeah, exactly.

00:33:40 ◼   ► And the original Apple Watch as limited and primitive

00:33:42 ◼   ► as it seems now, it did work, right?

00:33:46 ◼   ► And that's a judgment call of like,

00:33:48 ◼   ► can we ship this?

00:33:50 ◼   ► Is this good enough to ship? - And it demoed well.

00:33:51 ◼   ► Right, it demoed well.

00:33:52 ◼   ► And that's an important part of the whole thing.

00:33:56 ◼   ► When we all saw it for the first time,

00:33:58 ◼   ► it was like, well, this looks cool,

00:33:59 ◼   ► and they gotta do that again.

00:34:00 ◼   ► I mean, my personal read on this is similar

00:34:02 ◼   ► to what I've been saying, as you mentioned, for months now.

00:34:06 ◼   ► Maybe it isn't exactly where it would wanna be,

00:34:08 ◼   ► and they can't announce it the way that they would want to,

00:34:11 ◼   ► which I think is in-person event.

00:34:13 ◼   ► They don't know when they're gonna be able to do that.

00:34:15 ◼   ► let's just take more time on it.

00:34:17 ◼   ► - Could be too.

00:34:18 ◼   ► Like, I mean, once you're on the treadmill,

00:34:21 ◼   ► for lack of a better metaphor,

00:34:24 ◼   ► and the product's out there and you're releasing updates,

00:34:28 ◼   ► like you can't, you're on it.

00:34:30 ◼   ► That product's live.

00:34:31 ◼   ► Now you're iterating.

00:34:33 ◼   ► This is the one time in a product's life

00:34:35 ◼   ► where you can just say, we got time.

00:34:39 ◼   ► - Yeah.

00:34:41 ◼   ► - Just wait, wait for it.

00:34:43 ◼   ► We don't have to rush this

00:34:45 ◼   ► Because once we ship, once we announce really,

00:34:48 ◼   ► like the clock starts ticking.

00:34:50 ◼   ► So if we need to take our time

00:34:53 ◼   ► so that we don't stumble out of the gate,

00:34:54 ◼   ► now is the time to do that.

00:34:57 ◼   ► So that's, I think it's fine.

00:34:59 ◼   ► I'm not really surprised.

00:35:01 ◼   ► Everything has slipped, right?

00:35:03 ◼   ► Like we've seen all sorts of things slip,

00:35:05 ◼   ► often for availability reasons.

00:35:07 ◼   ► You've got a brand new product.

00:35:08 ◼   ► It's obviously shooting to be a very high end product

00:35:11 ◼   ► with lots of technology packed into it.

00:35:15 ◼   ► If this was a lesser product, it would be easier to ship,

00:35:17 ◼   ► but they are setting the bar pretty high for themselves.

00:35:20 ◼   ► So I'm not surprised, but I still, at this point,

00:35:23 ◼   ► I feel like based on what Mark is reporting,

00:35:26 ◼   ► that this is probably an announced fall product.

00:35:31 ◼   ► And they may even say that it'll be shipping

00:35:33 ◼   ► by the end of the year, but it definitely feels

00:35:34 ◼   ► like it's not gonna be shipping for the holidays

00:35:37 ◼   ► and in quantity until next year.

00:35:40 ◼   ► - So on the hardware, the components, the price,

00:35:45 ◼   ► Gorman says that he expects the headset

00:35:48 ◼   ► to be priced above $2,000

00:35:50 ◼   ► due to the high-end components being used.

00:35:53 ◼   ► We'd heard previously 3,000.

00:35:56 ◼   ► I reckon it's probably gonna be between two and three.

00:35:58 ◼   ► I just don't know how they could do higher.

00:36:01 ◼   ► I mean, 'cause even $2,000 is astronomical, right?

00:36:04 ◼   ► - Well, think about that this is,

00:36:06 ◼   ► what he says is M1 Pro level performance

00:36:10 ◼   ► because they need the GPUs.

00:36:12 ◼   ► And it's got the two, what, 8K panels?

00:36:17 ◼   ► How is that product not $2,500, $3,000?

00:36:22 ◼   ► - No, I understand, but this is one of those things

00:36:25 ◼   ► where it's as expensive as you decide to make.

00:36:27 ◼   ► They've made the decision, it didn't naturally grow this way

00:36:30 ◼   ► and I know why you would go to this level,

00:36:34 ◼   ► but like, I don't, for me with the price thing,

00:36:39 ◼   ► I'm kind of putting it to the back of my mind

00:36:41 ◼   ► until I try and get a sense of what their strategy is.

00:36:44 ◼   ► Because if their strategy is we make a $2,500 headset,

00:36:49 ◼   ► we're Apple, hello, this is what we do,

00:36:52 ◼   ► it's not a great strategy ultimately, right?

00:36:54 ◼   ► And we can believe that the strategy is, as we've expected

00:36:57 ◼   ► and as it's been rumored and pontificated on many times,

00:37:00 ◼   ► that like, this is the first one,

00:37:03 ◼   ► so they can get some enthusiasts in the mix

00:37:07 ◼   ► and get some developers in the mix

00:37:09 ◼   ► and try and work it out and bring the price down.

00:37:12 ◼   ► - And honestly, at this point, ship it after the holidays

00:37:14 ◼   ► when they might even have another version available

00:37:17 ◼   ► for the next holiday season, right?

00:37:19 ◼   ► So it's like, just don't, this is not for everybody.

00:37:23 ◼   ► I think though, this goes back to me saying

00:37:24 ◼   ► that they set the bar for themselves very high.

00:37:27 ◼   ► This is, I think, what Apple is doing here,

00:37:29 ◼   ► which is we're not gonna ship an Oculus Quest 2.

00:37:32 ◼   ► we're not gonna do it.

00:37:34 ◼   ► We have standards, right?

00:37:35 ◼   ► Is probably what they're saying.

00:37:37 ◼   ► And like, if we can't do it with this level

00:37:41 ◼   ► of GPU performance and this quality of display in the thing,

00:37:46 ◼   ► it's not even worth being a product.

00:37:48 ◼   ► And that will set the price much higher.

00:37:51 ◼   ► They could have made a cheaper product,

00:37:53 ◼   ► but it does allow them to go on stage.

00:37:55 ◼   ► Presumably we'll see what their competitors do

00:37:57 ◼   ► in the next year, but it allows them to go on stage

00:37:59 ◼   ► plausibly say, "This is the single best VR experience anybody has ever made." And I think

00:38:05 ◼   ► that's what they're shooting for. I think they want to come out and say, "You've seen

00:38:08 ◼   ► the rest, now see the best. This is the best VR thing ever. It's got M1 Pro power. It's

00:38:14 ◼   ► got dual 8K display. It is the closest thing to reality that you can possibly find. And

00:38:23 ◼   ► it's going to blow everything else out of the market." And whether that's true or not

00:38:26 ◼   ► remains to be seen, but I think that's what they're going for.

00:38:28 ◼   ► Whether that's true or not by the time they announce it is to, you know...

00:38:32 ◼   ► Well, that's what I mean about their competitors, right?

00:38:34 ◼   ► Like, we know that Meta is working on a Quest follow-up that is probably going to be the

00:38:39 ◼   ► Quest Pro, but I think it's Project Cambria.

00:38:42 ◼   ► That's the name of it at the moment, yeah.

00:38:44 ◼   ► But it might not even be Quest.

00:38:46 ◼   ► Honestly, I would expect it will have a different name, because Oculus had different product

00:38:52 ◼   ► names depending on where it sat in the market before, and now...

00:38:55 ◼   ► - Right, and this is a high-end thing,

00:38:57 ◼   ► so they may want to retire Quest.

00:38:58 ◼   ► We'll see, but that's coming, right?

00:39:00 ◼   ► And that may be, that's the risk of it slipping here,

00:39:03 ◼   ► is that Apple, I think, is staking out the high ground

00:39:06 ◼   ► and saying we have the best experience.

00:39:07 ◼   ► But by the time they ship this thing,

00:39:09 ◼   ► that may be a harder argument to make.

00:39:10 ◼   ► We'll see.

00:39:11 ◼   ► - And I would expect from a strategy decision,

00:39:13 ◼   ► 'cause I think they were already doing it anyway,

00:39:16 ◼   ► Meta will be willing to take a loss on the hardware

00:39:19 ◼   ► in a way that Apple, I don't think, would.

00:39:21 ◼   ► And that's where then the price and specs

00:39:24 ◼   ► could all start getting jumbled up because of the time that it takes them to get the

00:39:27 ◼   ► product out there.

00:39:28 ◼   ► Because this is, you know, I think more important to Meta's overall strategy.

00:39:35 ◼   ► They changed the name of the company, right?

00:39:39 ◼   ► Because of this.

00:39:40 ◼   ► So if they can get it in under a certain price point and take a loss on it, but they're banking

00:39:45 ◼   ► on all of the games that they own to sell well, you know, like it's, this is basically

00:39:50 ◼   ► taking the Sony and Microsoft and Nintendo model, right? When all these

00:39:55 ◼   ► consoles are released, they lose money at the beginning, but they make it up later

00:39:59 ◼   ► and they also make it up on the games that they make, right? So maybe Facebook

00:40:04 ◼   ► Meta could take that route where Apple could also, but won't.

00:40:12 ◼   ► My guess is that the Project Cambria quest follow-on will be, like, keep in mind

00:40:19 ◼   ► the Oculus Quest is what, 300 bucks? So I think that they're probably shooting for like a thousand

00:40:25 ◼   ► dollar headset that is much better than the Quest. And you think about it, the Quest is priced like

00:40:32 ◼   ► a console, but a thousand dollar headset is not priced like a console. It's a totally different

00:40:37 ◼   ► thing. I think that's what they're shooting for. And that's going to give Apple an interesting

00:40:42 ◼   ► position to be way more expensive and presumably have way better technology in it. Again, the

00:40:48 ◼   ► The argument is going to be that Meta has got a better platform with an existing app

00:40:54 ◼   ► store for VR and Apple is going to have to build that, although they've got their huge

00:40:58 ◼   ► existing iOS app store.

00:41:00 ◼   ► It's just an interesting way to go.

00:41:01 ◼   ► I think in the long run, those companies are going to get more in sync with their products.

00:41:06 ◼   ► But from this perspective, before those products exist, I think it's fascinating to see what

00:41:16 ◼   ► their different approaches are.

00:41:17 ◼   ► And one of them may prove to be more successful than the other in the short term, and it might

00:41:20 ◼   ► be different in the long term.

00:41:22 ◼   ► But I agree in the sense that what META is going to do will probably be a very different

00:41:28 ◼   ► approach than what Apple is doing.

00:41:30 ◼   ► And it may be successful because when you think about the Quest being $300, a $2,000

00:41:37 ◼   ► Apple headset is like, "What?

00:41:38 ◼   ► Like what are you doing?"

00:41:41 ◼   ► And yet if you think about the specs, I think they could justify it.

00:41:46 ◼   ► I think the question is, does anybody care enough

00:41:48 ◼   ► about having the best VR experience ever or not?

00:41:52 ◼   ► And that comes down to execution for Apple, right?

00:41:54 ◼   ► And what is Meta's execution?

00:41:56 ◼   ► And is it so good that the difference

00:42:00 ◼   ► between what they're doing and Apple is doing

00:42:02 ◼   ► is kind of not that much, and yet the price is so much more.

00:42:06 ◼   ► And that's a threat to Apple.

00:42:09 ◼   ► - And it's also worth remembering

00:42:10 ◼   ► that PlayStation will be in the mix.

00:42:12 ◼   ► But then anyway, and the PSVR2's

00:42:15 ◼   ► Um, uh, hardware is amazing.

00:42:19 ◼   ► I don't remember if we've talked about on this show, but like the specs that they've

00:42:22 ◼   ► given.

00:42:23 ◼   ► 4K HDR, 110 degree field of view with foveated rendering.

00:42:28 ◼   ► This is where...

00:42:29 ◼   ► Is it wireless now?

00:42:30 ◼   ► Uh, it would be one USB-C cable to the PlayStation 5.

00:42:35 ◼   ► Well that's better than the ridiculous set of boxes and cables that the...

00:42:41 ◼   ► Because I have a PSVR and I like it, but honestly I haven't played it since I got the Quest.

00:42:44 ◼   ► - Because it's clunky, super clunky.

00:42:46 ◼   ► - It's so clunky.

00:42:48 ◼   ► - Yeah, and also, I mean,

00:42:49 ◼   ► I mean, the Apple's is probably not gonna be wireless.

00:42:53 ◼   ► Right?

00:42:54 ◼   ► I don't think-- - Oh, Apple's will be wireless.

00:42:55 ◼   ► Yeah. - You think it will be?

00:42:56 ◼   ► All right, maybe.

00:42:57 ◼   ► - It's entirely self-contained.

00:42:58 ◼   ► - Okay, cool.

00:42:59 ◼   ► Well, anyway, the foveated rendering,

00:43:02 ◼   ► which is where it's using eye tracking

00:43:05 ◼   ► to just render what's in front of you.

00:43:07 ◼   ► We've spoken about this,

00:43:08 ◼   ► it's like this is something Apple probably do.

00:43:10 ◼   ► OLED display, 90 to 120 Hertz, inside out tracking,

00:43:15 ◼   ► so it no longer needs a camera.

00:43:16 ◼   ► And they have new really cool looking controllers

00:43:21 ◼   ► like kind of similar to Oculus-like controllers.

00:43:26 ◼   ► - Exactly, instead of my old PSVR,

00:43:29 ◼   ► 'cause I didn't use the little magic wand Sony things.

00:43:32 ◼   ► And so I ended up playing all my PSVR stuff

00:43:35 ◼   ► with just the PS3 controller or PS4 controller, I guess.

00:43:40 ◼   ► which was fine. It was fine.

00:43:42 ◼   ► But I will say this about Sony.

00:43:46 ◼   ► Their software is better because they're a platform.

00:43:52 ◼   ► They're a gaming platform.

00:43:54 ◼   ► - They're gonna have the best,

00:43:55 ◼   ► they're probably gonna, mm.

00:43:56 ◼   ► - They're gonna have the best games.

00:43:57 ◼   ► - They may have the best games.

00:43:58 ◼   ► It's gonna be between them and Meta really,

00:44:00 ◼   ► depending on what Sony's able to put out there.

00:44:03 ◼   ► - Can I just, my experience with the PSVR,

00:44:07 ◼   ► my favorite thing about it was the Astro Bot Rescue game.

00:44:10 ◼   ► I love that game so much.

00:44:11 ◼   ► - They'll make a huge version of that now.

00:44:13 ◼   ► - So that game though is so successful.

00:44:15 ◼   ► I have to say, and I don't know if there are any rumors,

00:44:17 ◼   ► I assume there aren't any rumors about this

00:44:19 ◼   ► and I assume they're gonna be eight years behind,

00:44:20 ◼   ► but what the Astro Bot Rescue game,

00:44:22 ◼   ► when I think about it, I'm like,

00:44:23 ◼   ► can you imagine Nintendo VR?

00:44:26 ◼   ► Can you imagine?

00:44:29 ◼   ► - If they, yeah, it would be great.

00:44:30 ◼   ► - 'Cause Astro Bot is very Nintendo like.

00:44:32 ◼   ► - Yeah.

00:44:33 ◼   ► - And I love it so much, but you know, it's Nintendo.

00:44:37 ◼   ► So there'll be, you know,

00:44:38 ◼   ► - The Nintendo headset will be here in 2030, right?

00:44:41 ◼   ► - It will come out in 2030 and it will be 1080p, right?

00:44:43 ◼   ► Like, you know, 'cause it's just what they do,

00:44:45 ◼   ► but the games will be the best games if they do it.

00:44:48 ◼   ► I mean, Nintendo are fine, right?

00:44:51 ◼   ► You know, Nintendo, totally good.

00:44:53 ◼   ► They're just gonna keep riding that Switch train.

00:44:56 ◼   ► They're good, you know,

00:44:57 ◼   ► that Nintendo works at a very different speed,

00:44:59 ◼   ► but yes, from a game quality perspective, it'd be amazing.

00:45:04 ◼   ► I want to talk about alternative app store payment stuff.

00:45:09 ◼   ► Oh yeah, we have a little update.

00:45:11 ◼   ► Honestly, this was a story

00:45:14 ◼   ► that I feel like I could have blinked and missed it.

00:45:19 ◼   ► But it is a story that,

00:45:22 ◼   ► without all of the hubbub of the last six months,

00:45:25 ◼   ► is monumental,

00:45:27 ◼   ► but it kind of was just like,

00:45:29 ◼   ► I think we're so jaded about this discussion now,

00:45:33 ◼   ► that it kind of just went by.

00:45:35 ◼   ► So Apple has finally confirmed they will comply

00:45:39 ◼   ► with the South Korean law for allowing alternate payment

00:45:43 ◼   ► methods in the App Store.

00:45:46 ◼   ► Now, they're going to basically do exactly what Google did.

00:45:49 ◼   ► Apple just waited.

00:45:50 ◼   ► They saw what Google did.

00:45:51 ◼   ► They're going to copy it.

00:45:52 ◼   ► They're going to allow for developers

00:45:54 ◼   ► to submit a specific build of their applications

00:45:57 ◼   ► for South Korea that will give users

00:46:00 ◼   ► choice of how they would like to pay in app. But Apple will still be expecting to take

00:46:07 ◼   ► a commission. They are calling it a reduced service charge.

00:46:13 ◼   ► All of this at the moment has basically just come from a set of quotes given to the Korea

00:46:22 ◼   ► Herald. That's basically as much as happened. It's like, "Oh, okay. Super interesting. I

00:46:28 ◼   ► to see where this goes. Then, a couple of days later, Apple announced that this will

00:46:34 ◼   ► also apply to dating apps in the Netherlands due to another legal case there. So we have

00:46:41 ◼   ► more details now for this one. I'm not sure why they gave the details now, maybe it's

00:46:47 ◼   ► like the date at which it has to be implemented was sooner, but Apple's going to be creating

00:46:52 ◼   ► a special entitlement that developers of dating applications will apply for. This is similar

00:46:58 ◼   ► to like CarPlay, so if you want to be a CarPlay app, you want your app to work in CarPlay,

00:47:03 ◼   ► you have to like apply to Apple and they confirm that you are the right kind of app for a CarPlay

00:47:09 ◼   ► app. If you're approved for this special entitlement for dating apps, they will be able to, developers

00:47:17 ◼   ► will be able to integrate this functionality into another Netherlands specific app release.

00:47:22 ◼   ► So we're going to have something called store kit external purchase entitlement, which I

00:47:28 ◼   ► think that makes sense, right?

00:47:29 ◼   ► This is the ability for you to have the external linking like the Korea thing.

00:47:33 ◼   ► There's also going to be something called store kit external link entitlement.

00:47:39 ◼   ► I think it's fair to expect that the link entitlement is what's going to also be used

00:47:43 ◼   ► to appease the Japanese Fair Trade Commission ruling, which is the first one of all of these.

00:47:48 ◼   ► Undoubtedly.

00:47:49 ◼   ► Yeah.

00:47:50 ◼   ► least, when talking about the dating apps in the Netherlands, Apple will still be requiring

00:47:56 ◼   ► some kind of commission no matter which you choose. Now, this is intriguing, right? Because

00:48:03 ◼   ► I don't remember anything from the Japanese Fair Trading Commission thing where Apple

00:48:08 ◼   ► was saying, "Hey, we're still going to make you pay us." That was never spoken about.

00:48:12 ◼   ► We all just kind of assumed you'll just be sent out if you're a reader app and you can

00:48:16 ◼   ► just go do the thing. But Apple will still want some kind of commission, but also are

00:48:21 ◼   ► going to say like, they're not going to help customers with any kind of refunds, etc, etc,

00:48:25 ◼   ► etc. What we don't know yet is how much, how it may differ between these two entitlements,

00:48:32 ◼   ► if at all. What are they doing?

00:48:35 ◼   ► I think we have now seen our, the Apple strategy. I texted you when these things were going

00:48:41 ◼   ► on and I said this, I feel like we discussed this scenario exactly and that there's actually

00:48:46 ◼   ► nothing surprising here. Apple has, remember they said, "Well, we need time," when the

00:48:51 ◼   ► US ruling was being appealed. They're like, "We need time, we need time." Clearly, they

00:48:55 ◼   ► are now building these two entitlements for StoreKit that they will allow certain apps

00:49:03 ◼   ► to do the external link or allow certain apps to do the external purchase. And you can now

00:49:09 ◼   ► see Apple strategy, which is they are going to build very specific rules about when you

00:49:14 ◼   ► use this. So they're going to limit this to where they have to make it available. They're

00:49:19 ◼   ► going to, and I know we talked about this a few months ago, they are going to make it

00:49:23 ◼   ► as painful as possible to implement, which is, I was laughing when I saw that the Netherlands

00:49:30 ◼   ► dating app will have to be a separate binary with a separate App Store ID. You're not going

00:49:37 ◼   ► to be able to do this per region, you're going to have to say here is the Netherlands version

00:49:45 ◼   ► of our app that lets you use this external search.

00:49:48 ◼   ► Technically, Match.com could end up with four versions of their app because they will do

00:49:54 ◼   ► it in the Netherlands, they will do it in South Korea because why not, and then Japan,

00:50:00 ◼   ► right?

00:50:01 ◼   ► Yeah, possibly, possibly. Depends on what their rules are, but it sounds like it's possible.

00:50:05 ◼   ► That'll be the way it is.

00:50:06 ◼   ► You know, you can see where I'm going for with that.

00:50:09 ◼   ► - Yeah, so they're not gonna make it easy for you.

00:50:11 ◼   ► And this is where it comes,

00:50:14 ◼   ► the dramatic vision of like Epic and people like that

00:50:19 ◼   ► about freedom from Apple's tyranny is hitting reality,

00:50:24 ◼   ► which is where they're winning cases

00:50:27 ◼   ► and where the regulators are putting pressure on Apple.

00:50:31 ◼   ► It's all about options for other payment methods

00:50:36 ◼   ► or options for links.

00:50:39 ◼   ► And so Apple is going to abide, they have a plan.

00:50:43 ◼   ► They are gonna abide by the letter of the law,

00:50:45 ◼   ► but they're not gonna repent, right?

00:50:48 ◼   ► They're going to do as little as possible

00:50:50 ◼   ► and make it as difficult as possible

00:50:52 ◼   ► because Apple wants control and Apple wants money.

00:50:56 ◼   ► And so you can see it here that if you believed

00:51:01 ◼   ► that by going to an external credit card provider,

00:51:04 ◼   ► you were gonna be free of Apple's tax on you.

00:51:09 ◼   ► Apple has made it clear that that's not the case.

00:51:11 ◼   ► Google has made this clear to Play Store developers

00:51:14 ◼   ► that it's not the case, that as platform owners,

00:51:18 ◼   ► they feel they have the right to charge users

00:51:22 ◼   ► of their platform for access to their platform.

00:51:25 ◼   ► And so the way they're spinning the percentage

00:51:30 ◼   ► that they take is now, now, although I could argue

00:51:35 ◼   ► that you saw this from the beginning with the App Store

00:51:37 ◼   ► because Steve Jobs talked a lot about how like,

00:51:39 ◼   ► we build you the APIs and we're running the App Store

00:51:43 ◼   ► and we handle the bandwidth and we take care

00:51:45 ◼   ► of all that stuff and in exchange,

00:51:47 ◼   ► and we're gonna grant you for free apps,

00:51:49 ◼   ► we're just gonna give it to you, that's great,

00:51:51 ◼   ► but if you pay, we wanna take our percentage.

00:51:53 ◼   ► And so now what they're both saying is,

00:51:56 ◼   ► look, if you wanna avoid that, that's okay,

00:51:59 ◼   ► avoid the credit card charges,

00:52:01 ◼   ► but you're not gonna avoid being on our platform

00:52:04 ◼   ► and paying us a fee for being present

00:52:06 ◼   ► and making money on our platform.

00:52:08 ◼   ► That's, you know, if you wanna separate those two,

00:52:10 ◼   ► that's fine, but we're still going to charge you.

00:52:13 ◼   ► So presumably these entitlements will include a requirement

00:52:17 ◼   ► that they announce to Apple in some way

00:52:20 ◼   ► what the size of the transaction is.

00:52:22 ◼   ► Apple will probably bill them

00:52:24 ◼   ► for Apple's percentage of them.

00:52:26 ◼   ► And so anybody who thought that they were gonna escape

00:52:31 ◼   ► paying Apple money by using an external credit card provider

00:52:34 ◼   ► is going to discover that they won't.

00:52:35 ◼   ► They're still gonna have to pay Apple.

00:52:36 ◼   ► In fact, depending on how it goes

00:52:39 ◼   ► and how bold Apple wants to be,

00:52:40 ◼   ► it may be the same or worse to use an external provider.

00:52:45 ◼   ► My guess is that in order to keep these regulators at bay

00:52:47 ◼   ► a little bit, it will be a little bit better.

00:52:50 ◼   ► And what the argument Apple will make to developers is,

00:52:53 ◼   ► okay, you can do it this way.

00:52:55 ◼   ► It will be worse for your users

00:52:56 ◼   ► and you're really not gonna make much more money,

00:52:58 ◼   ► you decide, and figuring that most people will be like,

00:53:01 ◼   ► "It's not worth it for me."

00:53:02 ◼   ► And where does this all end up?

00:53:05 ◼   ► It ends up with this, which is,

00:53:07 ◼   ► unless a government or a regulatory body of some kind

00:53:12 ◼   ► is willing to say that the owners of software platforms

00:53:17 ◼   ► cannot legally charge for access to the platform

00:53:26 ◼   ► in some way, Apple and Google will continue to take their cut.

00:53:31 ◼   ► And that, the challenge there is that,

00:53:33 ◼   ► and I think that's coming, that conversation is coming,

00:53:36 ◼   ► but that's a tougher argument to make, right?

00:53:40 ◼   ► 'Cause you're basically saying every platform that exists

00:53:44 ◼   ► has to be wide open and that the constructors

00:53:47 ◼   ► of the platform have to give everything away for free.

00:53:50 ◼   ► And the risk there is depending on how that stuff

00:53:53 ◼   ► is written and how that rule is organized,

00:53:57 ◼   ► you may end up in a situation where what ends up happening

00:54:01 ◼   ► is to become an Apple developer,

00:54:02 ◼   ► you're gonna have to pay a lot more money, right?

00:54:06 ◼   ► Like to have a class of app that is allowed to charge money,

00:54:09 ◼   ► you have to pay Apple a large amount of money.

00:54:13 ◼   ► And again, the risk there is that you're gonna end up

00:54:15 ◼   ► in a situation where you basically say,

00:54:17 ◼   ► platform owners can't charge for access

00:54:19 ◼   ► to their platforms at all.

00:54:20 ◼   ► That's a big step because that's basically saying,

00:54:23 ◼   ► your compensation for making a platform for developers

00:54:27 ◼   ► is nothing, you can't do it.

00:54:30 ◼   ► And that would be a huge change across all platforms.

00:54:34 ◼   ► I'm not saying that it might not happen

00:54:36 ◼   ► or that it might not be an interesting wrinkle,

00:54:38 ◼   ► but what Apple and Google are doing here is saying,

00:54:41 ◼   ► basically you're gonna have to go that far

00:54:44 ◼   ► if you want our money.

00:54:45 ◼   ► - Can you believe like,

00:54:46 ◼   ► can you imagine thinking this is the right way

00:54:50 ◼   ► to go about this?

00:54:51 ◼   ► Like you sat down with all of the options

00:54:55 ◼   ► and you come to the decision

00:54:57 ◼   ► that this is the way you want to go.

00:55:00 ◼   ► I cannot fathom this.

00:55:02 ◼   ► - It's the same thing that we've talked about before,

00:55:05 ◼   ► which is I can understand the mindset

00:55:07 ◼   ► from Apple's perspective

00:55:09 ◼   ► because Apple's very much shown we want our money.

00:55:11 ◼   ► Like we want our money, it's part of Apple's culture.

00:55:13 ◼   ► Apple didn't become the most profitable,

00:55:16 ◼   ► valuable company in the world by not taking its money.

00:55:19 ◼   ► but also part of it is the Steve Jobs instituted

00:55:22 ◼   ► kind of cultural thing, which is everybody owes us

00:55:26 ◼   ► for how great we are.

00:55:27 ◼   ► And anybody who's touching our platforms owes us.

00:55:30 ◼   ► And so we want our money because our great,

00:55:32 ◼   ► your great product is actually because of our greatness.

00:55:35 ◼   ► And like that is just a thing that has been instituted

00:55:38 ◼   ► and the success of the app store reinforced it.

00:55:40 ◼   ► And it still is there.

00:55:42 ◼   ► So I can understand them thinking that.

00:55:44 ◼   ► The part that you and I talked about before

00:55:46 ◼   ► that kind of blows me away is what I just said

00:55:49 ◼   ► about what they're doing is challenging governments

00:55:54 ◼   ► and regulators to make it impossible for platform owners

00:56:00 ◼   ► to monetize their platforms in any way, right?

00:56:01 ◼   ► Like that's, they're like, okay, we'll do this,

00:56:05 ◼   ► but we're still gonna take our cut

00:56:06 ◼   ► and we're gonna keep taking our cut

00:56:08 ◼   ► until you make it illegal for us to take a cut

00:56:10 ◼   ► on our platforms, which is a really,

00:56:12 ◼   ► like they're raising the bet there.

00:56:15 ◼   ► And I look at it and I think, yeah,

00:56:17 ◼   ► but what if they take the bet?

00:56:20 ◼   ► It could be catastrophic to your business

00:56:23 ◼   ► if you're barred further,

00:56:24 ◼   ► where you might get them off your case

00:56:27 ◼   ► if you eased up a little bit

00:56:28 ◼   ► and you'd still make a lot of money.

00:56:30 ◼   ► But the downside is that you're gonna lose everything

00:56:34 ◼   ► and the quality of your platform is gonna go down

00:56:36 ◼   ► and like all of this downside.

00:56:39 ◼   ► And I'm fascinated by what those arguments

00:56:41 ◼   ► must be like inside of Apple

00:56:43 ◼   ► and whether they have a plan of like,

00:56:44 ◼   ► well, if this becomes a problem, we have a solution.

00:56:47 ◼   ► But somebody decided to say,

00:56:48 ◼   ► rather than kind of backing off of this all the way

00:56:52 ◼   ► to a point where we think we can escape

00:56:54 ◼   ► and not have to do more and give up a little bit of revenue,

00:56:57 ◼   ► but really we escape from this whole situation.

00:57:00 ◼   ► Somebody inside Apple was like, nope, we'll take the bet.

00:57:03 ◼   ► We'll dare them to chase us,

00:57:07 ◼   ► chase that revenue somewhere else.

00:57:09 ◼   ► Because that's essentially the move they chose to make,

00:57:11 ◼   ► which is we're gonna risk our platform,

00:57:14 ◼   ► our app store by doing the minimum possible to comply, not realizing that the forces that

00:57:21 ◼   ► are out there are probably not going to be quieted by Apple doing the minimum.

00:57:26 ◼   ► I don't want to tip my hand for our next topic too much, but like, I believe that a company

00:57:32 ◼   ► can and should have competitive advantages, right? Like it's a part of doing business

00:57:37 ◼   ► and doing business well, like you work out what's best for you and you capitalize on

00:57:41 ◼   ► that but I just think the app store's gone way too far. I just think you know

00:57:45 ◼   ► like it just from a fundamental level right we can we pick apart this stuff as

00:57:51 ◼   ► much as we want but just from a fundamental level like I think the thing

00:57:55 ◼   ► that kicked all of this off is like Spotify right? Apple compete directly

00:58:01 ◼   ► with Spotify yeah and set the terms at which Spotify is allowed to compete

00:58:07 ◼   ► backwards. That is not fair. It just isn't fair. There's no fairness to this.

00:58:15 ◼   ► I think that this one is a better example than Epic than anyone else.

00:58:19 ◼   ► I think Spotify is the best example of this because they make the same product

00:58:25 ◼   ► in the same business and Apple can let themselves make more money because they

00:58:32 ◼   ► make Spotify give some of their money to them.

00:58:36 ◼   ► - Yeah, I mean that's, and that's one of the weaknesses

00:58:38 ◼   ► that clearly the lawyers have probably written down,

00:58:39 ◼   ► which is well, one place where we might be weak

00:58:42 ◼   ► is we may be barred from enforcing these rules

00:58:45 ◼   ► in areas where we compete.

00:58:47 ◼   ► And then we're gonna have to have a conversation

00:58:48 ◼   ► about our video streaming service and our music service

00:58:51 ◼   ► and our fitness service and all of those,

00:58:53 ◼   ► because all of those services where we have an advantage

00:58:56 ◼   ► by being the platform owner and having to dictate terms

00:58:58 ◼   ► to everybody who is not us,

00:59:01 ◼   ► the risk there is that at the very least,

00:59:03 ◼   ► we may be forced to comply for those categories.

00:59:07 ◼   ► And I would say, I agree with you.

00:59:09 ◼   ► I would say that's probably right, right?

00:59:12 ◼   ► Like when Apple, like the reason why,

00:59:14 ◼   ► why can't you buy books from Amazon on iOS

00:59:19 ◼   ► or comics from Amazon and ComiXology?

00:59:21 ◼   ► Why?

00:59:23 ◼   ► 'Cause iBooks, that's the reason.

00:59:25 ◼   ► And it's the most unfair thing possible.

00:59:26 ◼   ► It's like Apple can do when that purchases

00:59:28 ◼   ► because Apple's the middleman

00:59:30 ◼   ► and Apple doesn't take from its cut.

00:59:32 ◼   ► Amazon has to give Apple a cut and it's the middleman,

00:59:35 ◼   ► so it loses almost all of its cut when it does that.

00:59:37 ◼   ► The business models don't intersect.

00:59:39 ◼   ► The result is that Apple has a huge user experience advantage

00:59:43 ◼   ► with books, formerly iBooks, with books over Kindle.

00:59:48 ◼   ► Also, it hasn't worked, which is kind of funny,

00:59:53 ◼   ► but I'm sure they make some money at it,

00:59:55 ◼   ► but it's also degraded the whole iOS experience

00:59:58 ◼   ► for people who do use Amazon's things.

01:00:00 ◼   ► And like, it's not fair.

01:00:04 ◼   ► Apple is competing in a way that the competition

01:00:08 ◼   ► can't do what Apple does.

01:00:10 ◼   ► And Apple's argument would be,

01:00:12 ◼   ► well, yeah, but it's our platform.

01:00:14 ◼   ► Like, okay, that's the risk though.

01:00:15 ◼   ► - You're saying about fairness, right?

01:00:16 ◼   ► Fairness is a good point.

01:00:18 ◼   ► Because fairness in these kinds of things

01:00:21 ◼   ► is mostly a feeling until someone makes it law, right?

01:00:24 ◼   ► So at the moment, it just feels unfair.

01:00:28 ◼   ► And I think the argument that I have to make,

01:00:30 ◼   ► like when thinking about like the feeling of unfairness,

01:00:33 ◼   ► is like, who is winning here?

01:00:37 ◼   ► Who is winning here?

01:00:39 ◼   ► Who does Apple think is winning here?

01:00:42 ◼   ► Like what is their intention?

01:00:44 ◼   ► Like, do they wanna be this company?

01:00:46 ◼   ► Like, doesn't it just make everything that they do worse?

01:00:50 ◼   ► Like they're a customer experience company.

01:00:54 ◼   ► and they make the customer experience worse

01:00:58 ◼   ► due to the choices that they continue to make.

01:01:01 ◼   ► And I kind of just like, I just don't get it.

01:01:05 ◼   ► - Well, I think it comes down to,

01:01:07 ◼   ► are you willing to trade some of your perception

01:01:11 ◼   ► as being a good player for money?

01:01:15 ◼   ► And I think where a lot of the friction happens

01:01:18 ◼   ► with a lot of us when we think about these issues

01:01:21 ◼   ► is that Apple seems to be willing to trade

01:01:25 ◼   ► more of their perception as being a good actor,

01:01:28 ◼   ► a good player in the game for money

01:01:32 ◼   ► than we think they should.

01:01:35 ◼   ► And we are informed, they are informed by their profits.

01:01:40 ◼   ► We are also informed by their profits.

01:01:42 ◼   ► We look at the amount of profit that Apple makes

01:01:44 ◼   ► and say, "You're playing awfully hard hardball here

01:01:50 ◼   ► for a company that is so rich.

01:01:53 ◼   ► The counter argument is that it's business, baby,

01:01:58 ◼   ► maximize profits, play hardball.

01:02:00 ◼   ► Where it comes into intersection is people's views

01:02:04 ◼   ► of your company, consumers' views of your company,

01:02:07 ◼   ► third-party developers' views of your company,

01:02:09 ◼   ► and regulators' and lawmakers' perceptions of your company.

01:02:14 ◼   ► And that's the part where I think they're tone deaf.

01:02:17 ◼   ► That's the part where I think the Apple's attitude tends to be,

01:02:24 ◼   ► "I don't care about those developers.

01:02:26 ◼   ► They're making money on our platform.

01:02:28 ◼   ► Again, off of our greatness, they're making money.

01:02:31 ◼   ► And consumers love us.

01:02:33 ◼   ► Customer sat, customer sat.

01:02:34 ◼   ► They don't care about this stuff."

01:02:36 ◼   ► Okay, well, I agree with that to a certain extent.

01:02:40 ◼   ► And then you get to the regulators and you're like,

01:02:41 ◼   ► "Oh, I don't know.

01:02:44 ◼   ► Tech in general is seen as a bad guy,

01:02:46 ◼   ► and you are not acting like a good guy,

01:02:50 ◼   ► and that there's a lot of danger there.

01:02:52 ◼   ► But that's their calculation in the end.

01:02:55 ◼   ► And what I think a lot of us find disappointing is,

01:02:59 ◼   ► I don't expect Apple to say,

01:03:00 ◼   ► "No, no, we're a charity now," right?

01:03:02 ◼   ► I don't.

01:03:03 ◼   ► But I do look at what they do and think,

01:03:05 ◼   ► "Wait a second.

01:03:06 ◼   ► Are you taking risks with your entire

01:03:14 ◼   ► corporate identity for a relatively small amount of the money that you make.

01:03:21 ◼   ► That's the part that I don't get, right?

01:03:23 ◼   ► Is they are coming off as a bad guy and as like super greedy,

01:03:27 ◼   ► and nobody's asking them to become a charity.

01:03:30 ◼   ► If this was 60% of their revenue, I wouldn't fight this point so much.

01:03:35 ◼   ► Right?

01:03:37 ◼   ► Because then it's like, okay, I understand why they want this money.

01:03:41 ◼   ► I think maybe they need to loosen it a little bit,

01:03:45 ◼   ► but this is what the company's based on.

01:03:47 ◼   ► This is not what the company's based on.

01:03:50 ◼   ► - I know, and that's what it always comes back to is,

01:03:52 ◼   ► I find it a strange thing to add this level of risk

01:03:56 ◼   ► and to potentially anger various other parties

01:04:00 ◼   ► for something that doesn't really seem core

01:04:03 ◼   ► to your business, but Apple clearly thinks

01:04:06 ◼   ► much more aggressively about this than we do,

01:04:10 ◼   ► and it's a little bit baffling from our perspective,

01:04:13 ◼   ► but that's clearly their strategy, right?

01:04:14 ◼   ► Their strategy is to do as little as possible

01:04:16 ◼   ► and dare those regulators and those government officials

01:04:21 ◼   ► to make it basically making money off

01:04:24 ◼   ► of software platforms illegal,

01:04:27 ◼   ► because I think they figure they're never gonna do it,

01:04:30 ◼   ► that that's a step too far,

01:04:32 ◼   ► and that they're willing to go in the name of freedom

01:04:34 ◼   ► to things like choice about payment systems,

01:04:37 ◼   ► but maybe they're not willing to say,

01:04:39 ◼   ► this profit-making corporation is not allowed to charge people for this thing because that's

01:04:44 ◼   ► a step they may think is a step too far. The risk is that it's not a step too far and that

01:04:51 ◼   ► they lose a much bigger chunk of their business and are under just brutal regulation in certain

01:04:57 ◼   ► markets and I'm not sure that that's what they want but they've done the risk assessment

01:05:01 ◼   ► and they think it's okay.

01:05:02 ◼   ► This episode of Upgrade is brought to you by New Relic. If you're a software engineer,

01:05:07 ◼   ► You've been here. It's 9pm, you're finally unwinding from work, your phone buzzes with

01:05:12 ◼   ► an alert, something's broken and your mind's already racing about what could be wrong.

01:05:17 ◼   ► Is it the backend? Is it the frontend? Is it the server? Is it the network? Is it the

01:05:21 ◼   ► cloud provider? The list could go on and on. Now the whole team's scrambling from tool

01:05:26 ◼   ► to tool, and messaging person after person to find and fix that issue.

01:05:31 ◼   ► This does not happen if you get New Relic. New Relic combines 16 different monitoring

01:05:36 ◼   ► products that you'd normally buy separately, so engineering teams can see across their

01:05:40 ◼   ► entire software stack in one place. More importantly, you can pinpoint issues down to the very line

01:05:47 ◼   ► of code that's causing them, so you know exactly why the problem happened and can resolve

01:05:52 ◼   ► it quickly. That's why the dev and ops teams at companies like DoorDash, GitHub, Epic Games

01:05:58 ◼   ► and more than 14,000 others use New Relic to debug and improve their software. Whether

01:06:05 ◼   ► you run a cloud native startup or a fortune 500 company or anything in between, it takes

01:06:11 ◼   ► just 5 minutes to set up New Relic in your environment. That next 9pm call is just waiting

01:06:17 ◼   ► to happen, get New Relic before it does and you can get access to the whole New Relic

01:06:23 ◼   ► platform and 100GB of data free forever, no credit card required. Sign up at newrelic.com/upgrade

01:06:31 ◼   ► Tim Higgins at the Wall Street Journal wrote an article about how iMessage is becoming

01:06:49 ◼   ► a lock-in for Apple and a sales driver for iPhones, primarily amongst teenagers, because

01:06:56 ◼   ► of the "green bubble effect" in iMessage, ultimately suggesting that there is peer pressure

01:07:02 ◼   ► to get an iPhone and stay on an iPhone because of iMessage group chats.

01:07:07 ◼   ► Oh boy. This is... look, look, this is a dumb story. John Gruber wrote a piece to...

01:07:14 ◼   ► Just a great, super good, like a classic John Gruber eviscerating takedown, which is more

01:07:22 ◼   ► entertaining to read than the original story.

01:07:24 ◼   ► There are a lot of these stories, there's a lot of lazy journalism where you basically

01:07:28 ◼   ► take some anecdotes and string them together and try to use it to make a point. This story

01:07:32 ◼   ► is really unfortunate because it is, you know, is it true that green bubbles get crap from

01:07:43 ◼   ► blue bubbles in group texts?

01:07:45 ◼   ► Probably, but not like, consistently, right? Like, it happens, sure.

01:07:51 ◼   ► - I would actually argue that they talk about peer pressure

01:07:54 ◼   ► like you're a green bubble, get out of here.

01:07:56 ◼   ► What I have heard is that it's way worse

01:07:58 ◼   ► to be a green bubble in a group text

01:08:00 ◼   ► because then every tap back becomes a text message.

01:08:05 ◼   ► - There was a viral, did you see this viral tweet

01:08:08 ◼   ► around the holidays where it was just like 25 layers down

01:08:13 ◼   ► of like such and such person like this, like this, like this

01:08:16 ◼   ► because if there is somebody who's using SMS

01:08:20 ◼   ► in an iMessage thread,

01:08:23 ◼   ► you lose a lot of the iMessage functionality for everyone,

01:08:27 ◼   ► even if they're an iMessage user,

01:08:29 ◼   ► because it breaks the continuity of the thread.

01:08:32 ◼   ► - Yeah, exactly.

01:08:33 ◼   ► So it's bad on all sides, right?

01:08:35 ◼   ► I get it, I get it.

01:08:36 ◼   ► And I'm actually a little surprised

01:08:38 ◼   ► that Google hasn't done more in Android

01:08:40 ◼   ► to mediate this experience, right?

01:08:43 ◼   ► - They have from their side.

01:08:44 ◼   ► - Well, the message, you want your SMS app on Android

01:08:49 ◼   ► to read those messages and convert them back into metadata.

01:08:53 ◼   ► That's what you want. - It does.

01:08:54 ◼   ► - You wanna, does it?

01:08:55 ◼   ► - Yeah, so they enabled this.

01:08:58 ◼   ► So if you use SMS on Android

01:09:01 ◼   ► and you're working with people on iPhone,

01:09:03 ◼   ► say you did a tap back,

01:09:05 ◼   ► it shows up as a little thumbs up emoji

01:09:08 ◼   ► for the Android users.

01:09:09 ◼   ► It's iPhone users that still get the poor experience there.

01:09:13 ◼   ► - Oh yeah, bad, right, because they all boomerang back.

01:09:15 ◼   ► Anyway, so is there an issue here?

01:09:18 ◼   ► - Sure.

01:09:18 ◼   ► But first off, this story is trying to make points

01:09:25 ◼   ► that it can't back up about like teenagers

01:09:29 ◼   ► who are using iMessage groups,

01:09:31 ◼   ► where we know teenagers are using lots of groups.

01:09:33 ◼   ► It's very US centric,

01:09:34 ◼   ► 'cause this is really only true in the US.

01:09:36 ◼   ► If you look at other places

01:09:37 ◼   ► where the iPhone is successful,

01:09:39 ◼   ► group are linked to all these points.

01:09:40 ◼   ► If you look at other places

01:09:41 ◼   ► where the iPhone is successful,

01:09:43 ◼   ► and people don't use iMessage,

01:09:45 ◼   ► people are still using the iPhone,

01:09:47 ◼   ► So it's not iMessage.

01:09:48 ◼   ► I think at the core of this is basically like

01:09:50 ◼   ► this writer had heard some fun anecdotes

01:09:54 ◼   ► and decided to formulate a theory that like, aha.

01:09:57 ◼   ► It actually reminds me back in the day of like the,

01:10:00 ◼   ► when the iPod especially was successful

01:10:02 ◼   ► and people were like, people only use Apple products

01:10:05 ◼   ► 'cause they're in a cult or then people only use

01:10:09 ◼   ► Apple products because of the look

01:10:12 ◼   ► 'cause it's a status symbol.

01:10:14 ◼   ► Like that was always the argument.

01:10:15 ◼   ► And so Tim Higgins at the Wall Street Journal, I think,

01:10:18 ◼   ► heard these anecdotes and said,

01:10:19 ◼   ► "Aha, this is the reason why people buy iPhones.

01:10:22 ◼   ► Like there has to be a reason.

01:10:23 ◼   ► It can't be that they're good.

01:10:24 ◼   ► It's that the status of being a blue bubble

01:10:28 ◼   ► is the thing that is at the center of this."

01:10:30 ◼   ► And it's very silly because it's only in the US

01:10:34 ◼   ► and it's not true in other places

01:10:36 ◼   ► where the iPhone is successful.

01:10:38 ◼   ► So it's a thing that happens,

01:10:40 ◼   ► but trying to build this narrative arc on top of this,

01:10:45 ◼   ► Like this would be better,

01:10:46 ◼   ► and maybe Wall Street Journal doesn't do kinds of stories

01:10:48 ◼   ► like this unless it has a business impact of some kind,

01:10:50 ◼   ► but like this is a quirky story

01:10:53 ◼   ► that's like a sociological story about like,

01:10:56 ◼   ► like iPhones are from Mars and Androids are from Venus.

01:11:00 ◼   ► It's like, why can't our text messages talk?

01:11:03 ◼   ► And you could do a story like that

01:11:04 ◼   ► that's about like the social issues

01:11:06 ◼   ► and about the technical issues.

01:11:07 ◼   ► And you could really kind of dig down

01:11:08 ◼   ► and make an interesting story.

01:11:10 ◼   ► This doesn't do that because this is trying to build

01:11:12 ◼   ► this other narrative about how Apple is causing bullying

01:11:17 ◼   ► among teenagers because the iPhone blue bubbles

01:11:21 ◼   ► are the reason you have to buy an iPhone,

01:11:23 ◼   ► even though like, I know those anecdotes exist, I get it.

01:11:26 ◼   ► It's just taking it for more than it's worth.

01:11:29 ◼   ► And then the part that actually made me angry

01:11:31 ◼   ► is that the SVP of Android--

01:11:34 ◼   ► - Hiroshi Lockheimer.

01:11:36 ◼   ► - Hiroshi Lockheimer jumped in.

01:11:38 ◼   ► - Went too hard, too fast.

01:11:40 ◼   ► (laughing)

01:11:41 ◼   ► - Way too hard. - I wanna read this tweet

01:11:43 ◼   ► in case people missed it. - Oh my God.

01:11:45 ◼   ► - I think he got a little carried away,

01:11:48 ◼   ► maybe wished he wouldn't have done it, but like did it.

01:11:50 ◼   ► And then the Android account kind of doubled down on it.

01:11:53 ◼   ► But I guess if your SVP is saying it,

01:11:55 ◼   ► what else are you gonna do?

01:11:56 ◼   ► Apple's iMessage lock-in is a documented strategy

01:11:59 ◼   ► using peer pressure and bullying as a way to sell products

01:12:02 ◼   ► is disingenuous for a company that has humanity and equity

01:12:05 ◼   ► as a core part of its marketing.

01:12:07 ◼   ► The standards exist today to fix this.

01:12:10 ◼   ► Hiroshi, man.

01:12:12 ◼   ► - Yeah.

01:12:13 ◼   ► - You know you went too hard.

01:12:14 ◼   ► 'Cause then the next day it comes out

01:12:16 ◼   ► with a much better Twitter thread about like,

01:12:19 ◼   ► here are the ways in which this can be better.

01:12:22 ◼   ► And talking about there's a new standard called RCS.

01:12:25 ◼   ► Some people like it, some people don't,

01:12:26 ◼   ► but it would in theory help bridge some of this.

01:12:29 ◼   ► Or just saying like, hey, Apple,

01:12:31 ◼   ► we would like to work with you, right?

01:12:33 ◼   ► And like, that's a cool thing to do.

01:12:34 ◼   ► 'Cause then you're like, we wanna fix this,

01:12:36 ◼   ► balls in their court, et cetera.

01:12:38 ◼   ► It's a better way to handle it

01:12:39 ◼   ► than being like, "Apple's a bully, man!"

01:12:41 ◼   ► Like, it's like, "Oh no, too far."

01:12:44 ◼   ► - That first tweet not only was way too far

01:12:46 ◼   ► and honestly just makes Hiroshi Lockheimer look like a jerk.

01:12:50 ◼   ► But it also feels, actually it makes him also kind of feel

01:12:53 ◼   ► like a cultist of his own where it's like he's been,

01:12:57 ◼   ► was he reading the, you know,

01:12:59 ◼   ► we're open manifesto at that point?

01:13:02 ◼   ► 'Cause it was the typical condescension and arrogance

01:13:05 ◼   ► that I feel like Google executives involving Android

01:13:09 ◼   ► had five years ago, where it was just dripping

01:13:12 ◼   ► with condescension and arrogance and conspiracy theories.

01:13:16 ◼   ► And like, the only reason they're successful

01:13:19 ◼   ► is because they are bullies and we're good

01:13:22 ◼   ► and we aren't bullies, which by the way,

01:13:23 ◼   ► if you read anything about Google's advertising strategies

01:13:26 ◼   ► last week, Google are super bullies and kind of shady

01:13:29 ◼   ► or like super shady, like pretty rich

01:13:32 ◼   ► that these are happening kind of simultaneously.

01:13:34 ◼   ► Not gonna get into that, but just, you can look it up.

01:13:37 ◼   ► Yeah, anyway, so Hiroshi, I think it's funny

01:13:40 ◼   ► that he like super backed off of it

01:13:42 ◼   ► to what I think is a reasonable argument,

01:13:44 ◼   ► which is look, the carriers have this new system

01:13:48 ◼   ► and it's not as good as iMessage.

01:13:50 ◼   ► It's not for a lot of different reasons,

01:13:52 ◼   ► including the reason that it's locked to a phone number,

01:13:55 ◼   ► which means that there are some issues involving locking

01:13:58 ◼   ► to a phone number, I get it.

01:14:00 ◼   ► Google's point is it's better than SMS.

01:14:03 ◼   ► Could we come to some agreement because all the users,

01:14:07 ◼   ► This goes back to what we were talking about before.

01:14:09 ◼   ► It's a user experience issue for everyone,

01:14:12 ◼   ► not just for Android users, but also for iPhone users.

01:14:15 ◼   ► It's a user experience issue.

01:14:17 ◼   ► You could even argue if you're inside Apple

01:14:20 ◼   ► that making iMessage work better with Android

01:14:25 ◼   ► is actually good for iMessage

01:14:29 ◼   ► because otherwise a lot of these mixed groups are,

01:14:33 ◼   ► and outside the US they've already done it,

01:14:35 ◼   ► are going to retreat to WhatsApp or Line or WeChat

01:14:38 ◼   ► or whatever.

01:14:39 ◼   ► They're going to leave iMessage

01:14:40 ◼   ► because the experience is so bad

01:14:42 ◼   ► if they have an Android user in their group.

01:14:44 ◼   ► And I would argue that that is a bigger impact

01:14:47 ◼   ► than bullying a teenager 'cause they have a green bubble.

01:14:50 ◼   ► 'Cause I've heard this from friends of mine

01:14:53 ◼   ► where it's like, "Oh God, we got into this loop

01:14:55 ◼   ► with the Android thing and it's such a problem."

01:14:56 ◼   ► It's like, it makes your iMessage bad.

01:14:59 ◼   ► It makes messages bad.

01:15:00 ◼   ► So I think there's an argument to be made

01:15:03 ◼   ► and Hiroshi Lockheimer eventually made it,

01:15:05 ◼   ► which is maybe Apple should support something like RCS,

01:15:08 ◼   ► even though it's not great,

01:15:10 ◼   ► just in order to make the experience with Android users

01:15:16 ◼   ► better for everybody.

01:15:19 ◼   ► Even though it's not great. - Well, it's like they support

01:15:19 ◼   ► SMS, right?

01:15:20 ◼   ► So like, you know. - Yeah, exactly.

01:15:22 ◼   ► - You've got to support something.

01:15:24 ◼   ► - And it's hard not to look at Apple's failure

01:15:26 ◼   ► to support RCS as anything but kind of a spite thing,

01:15:29 ◼   ► where they're like, no, lowest common denominator

01:15:32 ◼   ► for Android users is what you're gonna get.

01:15:34 ◼   ► but the UX is so bad that like keep RCS as a green bubble.

01:15:39 ◼   ► I don't care, right?

01:15:41 ◼   ► Like it's not iMessage.

01:15:42 ◼   ► - Don't give it all the features, you know?

01:15:44 ◼   ► - Get a new bubble, get a new bubble color.

01:15:46 ◼   ► I don't care.

01:15:47 ◼   ► But I think that it's a sort of a shame

01:15:50 ◼   ► that Apple hasn't gotten to that just because I do think

01:15:52 ◼   ► this is a UX experience problem for everybody.

01:15:54 ◼   ► But I don't think that this is all like,

01:15:56 ◼   ► "Oh, well this explains the iPhone.

01:15:58 ◼   ► "It's the green bubble bullying."

01:16:00 ◼   ► That explains it, like, come on.

01:16:03 ◼   ► - No, it's stupid. - Don't give it up.

01:16:03 ◼   ► Because, as you said, right, like, outside of the US, nobody even uses iMessage. Like,

01:16:09 ◼   ► I am an annoyance to everyone in my life because I don't want to use WhatsApp, which is what

01:16:15 ◼   ► everyone in the UK uses. They use WhatsApp, but, like, at least everyone I interact with,

01:16:20 ◼   ► like, WhatsApp is— You're getting that WhatsApp bullying? Are

01:16:22 ◼   ► you a victim of WhatsApp bullying, Myke? It's kind of the reverse, where—

01:16:27 ◼   ► So you're who Hiroshi Lockheimer is talking about.

01:16:30 ◼   ► - No!

01:16:32 ◼   ► - Because I don't use it.

01:16:33 ◼   ► I'm in some WhatsApp groups, but I don't like to use them.

01:16:36 ◼   ► And so I kind of, I have a bunch of family chats and stuff

01:16:40 ◼   ► where the only time they ever open iMessage

01:16:43 ◼   ► is because they wanna talk in the family group

01:16:45 ◼   ► that I'm a part of, right?

01:16:46 ◼   ► And as you said, Line, WeChat, Facebook Messenger,

01:16:52 ◼   ► they're all popular in certain countries around the world

01:16:56 ◼   ► and certain locations.

01:16:57 ◼   ► But then, like, four teens in the US,

01:17:01 ◼   ► Instagram messaging, Discord, like, these are being you.

01:17:06 ◼   ► They're only becoming bigger and more prevalent anyway.

01:17:09 ◼   ► So like, look, I'm not saying this doesn't happen, right?

01:17:12 ◼   ► We started this conversation like, it does happen,

01:17:14 ◼   ► of course it happens.

01:17:15 ◼   ► But to suggest that this is the only reason

01:17:17 ◼   ► people are buying iPhones doesn't make any sense.

01:17:20 ◼   ► - It's bananas.

01:17:21 ◼   ► - 'Cause it's like Jungkook pointed out of like,

01:17:23 ◼   ► In the reverse, on Android, Android messages,

01:17:27 ◼   ► RCS messages are blue and SMSes are green.

01:17:31 ◼   ► - Right.

01:17:32 ◼   ► - So it's the same there too, right?

01:17:34 ◼   ► Like it's more than just this.

01:17:37 ◼   ► It's one of the things, sure,

01:17:38 ◼   ► but it's like a whole set of things.

01:17:40 ◼   ► And so to go back to what I was saying earlier,

01:17:43 ◼   ► I don't think that Apple should have to support

01:17:46 ◼   ► absolutely everything or be forced to put iMessage

01:17:49 ◼   ► on Android or whatever, 'cause it is part of their system

01:17:53 ◼   ► of like, we've made this cool thing.

01:17:55 ◼   ► You get like a bunch of features,

01:17:56 ◼   ► like they should maybe adopt some newer standards

01:17:59 ◼   ► to make interoperability better.

01:18:01 ◼   ► I don't think they have to go the whole hog

01:18:02 ◼   ► to make it like perfect for Android.

01:18:05 ◼   ► - I agree.

01:18:06 ◼   ► - And of course they see iMesses as tie-in.

01:18:08 ◼   ► I don't think that's a bad thing, right?

01:18:10 ◼   ► It's just, you know, they could bridge the gap

01:18:12 ◼   ► a little bit more.

01:18:13 ◼   ► - And, you know, the truth is that Apple is not

01:18:17 ◼   ► in competition with coming, certainly not in competition

01:18:20 ◼   ► with Google's chat things.

01:18:22 ◼   ► 'cause Google has proven to be hilariously--

01:18:25 ◼   ► - Oztentica wrote an incredible article about this.

01:18:29 ◼   ► I will find it for the show notes,

01:18:31 ◼   ► where they're like, "Google's one to talk."

01:18:34 ◼   ► It's a really good article.

01:18:35 ◼   ► - Google is hilariously incompetent at chat,

01:18:38 ◼   ► and so that's fine.

01:18:40 ◼   ► Apple's competition is WhatsApp and WeChat and all the rest.

01:18:44 ◼   ► That is iMessage's competition.

01:18:46 ◼   ► And so I would argue that Apple, like WeChat or WhatsApp,

01:18:52 ◼   ► controlling their platform so they can innovate,

01:18:55 ◼   ► which I would argue Apple's done a bad job of innovating,

01:18:58 ◼   ► that they need to do a better job with iMessage.

01:19:00 ◼   ► They tried the replies thing, it's not great.

01:19:02 ◼   ► Like they're trying, which is good.

01:19:05 ◼   ► I think Tapbacks is like the best thing

01:19:07 ◼   ► that they've done there in a long time.

01:19:09 ◼   ► It frustrates me that they're so limited in Tapbacks.

01:19:13 ◼   ► I kind of feel like Tapbacks should let you choose emoji

01:19:17 ◼   ► and use them as Tapbacks and have a little broader palette

01:19:20 ◼   ► to select from than just the ones that are there.

01:19:23 ◼   ► But the ones that are there are great.

01:19:25 ◼   ► I love tap backs.

01:19:26 ◼   ► They're a lot of fun.

01:19:27 ◼   ► So they've done some good innovation.

01:19:29 ◼   ► iMessage, like they need to control it

01:19:32 ◼   ► because it is their product

01:19:34 ◼   ► and they need to be able to do it.

01:19:35 ◼   ► And they don't need to open it up

01:19:36 ◼   ► and they don't need to bring it to Android

01:19:38 ◼   ► because it is their product.

01:19:39 ◼   ► If they don't want to, it's going to hurt them

01:19:42 ◼   ► in the sense that people on Android

01:19:46 ◼   ► are going to not wanna use that SMS

01:19:49 ◼   ► to talk to their friends.

01:19:50 ◼   ► That's why I say actually opening up to RCS might help

01:19:53 ◼   ► iMessage be sticky for people who are using text messages with Android people in the group instead of them abandoning it for another chat system

01:20:02 ◼   ► So yeah, this is this is it is silly

01:20:05 ◼   ► I think it is a side effect of Google having been such a failure that obviously the people at Google are really angry about the

01:20:11 ◼   ► Whole thing and about RCS and the reason they're angry is because Google has never made it work. And so

01:20:18 ◼   ► they have this terrible situation on Android right now,

01:20:22 ◼   ► or you use a third party app.

01:20:24 ◼   ► That's just how it is.

01:20:25 ◼   ► And Apple has had some success in some markets

01:20:28 ◼   ► with iMessage and they hate that.

01:20:31 ◼   ► But like in the end for me as a user,

01:20:33 ◼   ► and I would think for Apple as the platform owner,

01:20:37 ◼   ► the issue should not be,

01:20:38 ◼   ► are we gonna give something to Android users?

01:20:40 ◼   ► 'Cause don't put iMessage on Android, it's fine.

01:20:42 ◼   ► Maybe you should look at what's going on

01:20:45 ◼   ► with these green bubble, blue bubble problems

01:20:47 ◼   ► and the work that Android is trying to do

01:20:50 ◼   ► to cover some of it up and how it affects your users

01:20:53 ◼   ► and say, you know what, we could do better here.

01:20:57 ◼   ► And maybe implementing RCS support is,

01:21:01 ◼   ► as a gateway for talking to Android users

01:21:05 ◼   ► is something that would work.

01:21:06 ◼   ► Maybe not, maybe there's some technical reasons

01:21:08 ◼   ► why it would actually be a worse user experience.

01:21:09 ◼   ► That's fine.

01:21:10 ◼   ► But that's the solution, right?

01:21:13 ◼   ► Is how do we make a better experience here

01:21:15 ◼   ► for all our users, not, "Oh, Apple's so mean

01:21:18 ◼   ► "and not putting iMessage on Android

01:21:20 ◼   ► "and they're facilitating bullying."

01:21:22 ◼   ► It's just dumb.

01:21:22 ◼   ► - This episode of Upgrade is brought to you by Doppler.

01:21:25 ◼   ► Thousands of companies from startups to enterprises

01:21:28 ◼   ► use Doppler to keep their secrets and app configuration

01:21:31 ◼   ► in sync across devices, environments, and team members

01:21:34 ◼   ► so you can say goodbye to those .env files.

01:21:38 ◼   ► The scary days of sharing secrets over Slack, email,

01:21:41 ◼   ► Git, and zip files are over.

01:21:43 ◼   ► After adding a secret, your team and their apps

01:21:45 ◼   ► it available to them instantly, plus you can create references to frequently used secrets

01:21:50 ◼   ► in Doppler as well, and when they need to change, you only need to update them once.

01:21:54 ◼   ► Go live in minutes, not months. As your stack evolves, Doppler remains simple.

01:21:59 ◼   ► Go now to Doppler.com to learn more. That's D O P P L E R dot com to learn more.

01:22:05 ◼   ► Our thanks to Doppler for their support of this show and Relay FM.

01:22:09 ◼   ► Let's finish out today with some #AskUpgradeQuestions.

01:22:14 ◼   ► Einuk asks, "Have either of you played around with the new version of Swift Playgrounds?"

01:22:20 ◼   ► I downloaded it and I looked at it and I haven't done more than that.

01:22:25 ◼   ► This isn't really a thing that we do. I understand the significance of it, right? And I think,

01:22:32 ◼   ► you know, I kind of feel like maybe we give some of this stuff a short shrift because it is a cool

01:22:39 ◼   ► thing that they've added. We spoke about it at WWDC and then it hasn't come back up again on

01:22:44 ◼   ► on this show because what are we gonna do with it?

01:22:45 ◼   ► But the idea, in case you've missed,

01:22:47 ◼   ► is that Swift Playgrounds 4 is the first time

01:22:50 ◼   ► that you can create an app on iOS,

01:22:52 ◼   ► submit it to the app store.

01:22:53 ◼   ► Like that's the significance of it.

01:22:54 ◼   ► - And my understanding is it's a lot faster

01:22:56 ◼   ► and it's people who are developers who've played with it

01:22:58 ◼   ► are very impressed with it.

01:22:59 ◼   ► I don't write things in Swift.

01:23:01 ◼   ► My focus is on other languages that I am using

01:23:05 ◼   ► for scripting on my Mac primarily

01:23:08 ◼   ► and for shortcuts on iOS.

01:23:11 ◼   ► So while it's interesting to me on that level,

01:23:13 ◼   ► It's not, this feels, it's a little too developer-y

01:23:18 ◼   ► beyond that.

01:23:19 ◼   ► I did, already did a lot of the Swift introductions.

01:23:22 ◼   ► I've been meaning to go back to that.

01:23:23 ◼   ► There are little lessons and all of that,

01:23:25 ◼   ► because that's kind of fun.

01:23:26 ◼   ► - I've done those.

01:23:27 ◼   ► - And I was kind of interested to see how they,

01:23:29 ◼   ► how they work in the new version.

01:23:31 ◼   ► But like beyond that, I would just say it's beyond the scope

01:23:34 ◼   ► of us as people to do that.

01:23:37 ◼   ► But I've heard good things from developers about it.

01:23:39 ◼   ► - And people that are into Swift seem happy too, right?

01:23:42 ◼   ► And I've already seen, I'm sure you have too,

01:23:45 ◼   ► like the first apps that have been made, they're shipping.

01:23:48 ◼   ► Like you can buy them.

01:23:49 ◼   ► Like people have shipped apps now

01:23:52 ◼   ► that have been purely created.

01:23:55 ◼   ► I think one was called like, To-Don't or something.

01:23:58 ◼   ► - Right.

01:23:59 ◼   ► - Is the name of the app, which is like,

01:24:01 ◼   ► I'll see if I can try and find a link for that

01:24:03 ◼   ► in the show notes, but it's like a list of things not to do,

01:24:06 ◼   ► which is a cute little idea.

01:24:07 ◼   ► But one of the reasons that it had been circulating

01:24:10 ◼   ► in our community was because it was made and published straight from Swift Playgrounds,

01:24:18 ◼   ► which I think is really cool. So it is a great thing that this exists, but we don't really

01:24:25 ◼   ► have much more to say about that.

01:24:27 ◼   ► No, not at this time. Maybe we'll dream of being app developers at some point. My guess,

01:24:33 ◼   ► by the way, I'll just throw it out here, the reason that I would learn to use Swift is

01:24:36 ◼   ► as if Apple decided to create a light version of Swift

01:24:40 ◼   ► that it was going to use for scripting apps on its platforms,

01:24:45 ◼   ► because I feel like that's one of the missing pieces

01:24:48 ◼   ► now that they've done shortcuts is,

01:24:51 ◼   ► is there going to be something

01:24:52 ◼   ► that's a replacement for AppleScript?

01:24:54 ◼   ► Because you can't do everything with shortcuts.

01:24:56 ◼   ► There are things that you really kind of need

01:24:58 ◼   ► a scripting language to do, and what would that be?

01:25:03 ◼   ► And it probably should be JavaScript, which I don't love,

01:25:06 ◼   ► but it probably should be, but, you know,

01:25:08 ◼   ► Apple invented Swift.

01:25:09 ◼   ► So is there a Swift script essentially

01:25:12 ◼   ► waiting in the wings?

01:25:13 ◼   ► If something like that happens, then yeah,

01:25:15 ◼   ► I will learn that portion of Swift

01:25:18 ◼   ► because I'll be interested in doing things with that.

01:25:21 ◼   ► But in terms of like fundamentals of programming,

01:25:24 ◼   ► I've learned a lot of that stuff

01:25:26 ◼   ► and app development is not something

01:25:28 ◼   ► I'm really interested in, so here we are.

01:25:30 ◼   ► - So that app to dump was written by Cephalopod Studio

01:25:34 ◼   ► and they wrote an article called "Lessons from Developing an App on the iPad in Swift

01:25:39 ◼   ► Playgrounds from Start to Finish" so I put the link down in the show notes as well so

01:25:42 ◼   ► if you want to read from someone who's actually done it, what they thought of it and maybe

01:25:47 ◼   ► whether you should do it, I'll put that in the show notes for you.

01:25:50 ◼   ► Michael asks "If you have the option to customize your iPad home screen so that the dock is

01:25:55 ◼   ► on the left or right side instead of on the bottom, would you do it?"

01:25:58 ◼   ► Oh, that's weird.

01:26:01 ◼   ► No, the answer is no and I'll tell you why for me. Usually the iPad is in horizontal

01:26:08 ◼   ► anyway right? So like, and so I with the iPad dock I want to have the maximum amount of

01:26:18 ◼   ► space for the tap targets in a way that is not necessary on a Mac because the screens

01:26:26 ◼   ► a bigger, by and large. So that's my thinking on that's why I don't really

01:26:31 ◼   ► want that as such.

01:26:35 ◼   ► I would also say no. I am a side doc person on the Mac, but on iOS the doc

01:26:48 ◼   ► doesn't work like that. The doc is a flip up from the bottom kind of thing.

01:26:52 ◼   ► I mean, I guess it wouldn't matter

01:26:54 ◼   ► because I don't tend to use the dock in that way.

01:26:58 ◼   ► But since the home screen is oriented in the way it is,

01:27:01 ◼   ► the bottom is the best place for it anyway.

01:27:03 ◼   ► So yeah, it would be different

01:27:05 ◼   ► if the dock was always visible or something like that,

01:27:07 ◼   ► but that's not the case on the iPad.

01:27:09 ◼   ► So it's fine where it is.

01:27:12 ◼   ► If it was a different interface, you know,

01:27:15 ◼   ► like it is on the Mac, I might make a different choice,

01:27:17 ◼   ► but as it is, no.

01:27:20 ◼   ► - Otto wants to know,

01:27:23 ◼   ► what is your favorite iPhone color of all time?

01:27:27 ◼   ► - I'm gonna go, oh, well, I have a blue iPhone 13 mini

01:27:32 ◼   ► that I like a lot,

01:27:35 ◼   ► but I am going to go with the coral iPhone 10 R.

01:27:39 ◼   ► - Interesting.

01:27:40 ◼   ► - Which is this orange thing.

01:27:43 ◼   ► It's great, I love it.

01:27:45 ◼   ► - Before I tell mine, I'm just gonna say them

01:27:49 ◼   ► before people say you must have forgotten about this,

01:27:51 ◼   ► why would you not pick it?

01:27:53 ◼   ► - Actually the black, black, black iPhone 5

01:27:58 ◼   ► would be my honorable mention

01:28:00 ◼   ► because I loved the look of that one.

01:28:03 ◼   ► - That was it.

01:28:03 ◼   ► I was gonna say graphite 5S, but then that wasn't it.

01:28:06 ◼   ► It was the black 5S, piano black iPhone 7,

01:28:09 ◼   ► et cetera, et cetera.

01:28:11 ◼   ► We remember them all, but me and Jason,

01:28:14 ◼   ► like a little more excitement in our lives.

01:28:16 ◼   ► - More color.

01:28:17 ◼   ► And mine is the current gold Pro.

01:28:22 ◼   ► So the gold that they have had in the iPhone 13 Pro

01:28:28 ◼   ► and in the iPhone 12 Pro.

01:28:31 ◼   ► - It's good.

01:28:31 ◼   ► There've been some good colors out there.

01:28:33 ◼   ► I can't believe we didn't do an iPhone color draft.

01:28:35 ◼   ► Maybe later.

01:28:36 ◼   ► - What you're saying is we just haven't yet

01:28:38 ◼   ► done an iPhone color draft.

01:28:40 ◼   ► - My iPhone XR review unit was the coral.

01:28:45 ◼   ► - That coral one is amazing.

01:28:46 ◼   ► - Oh, it's so good.

01:28:48 ◼   ► - It's amazing.

01:28:49 ◼   ► - So beautiful.

01:28:49 ◼   ► And then I really do like my blue iPhone 13 mini.

01:28:52 ◼   ► I'm very happy with it.

01:28:53 ◼   ► It's a lot of fun.

01:28:56 ◼   ► It's not super bright,

01:28:57 ◼   ► but every time I see the blue on it

01:28:58 ◼   ► and I don't use a case, I smile like,

01:29:00 ◼   ► "Oh, blue phone, it's my blue phone."

01:29:03 ◼   ► But that coral 10R was really sweet.

01:29:06 ◼   ► - So we remember many of the colors.

01:29:09 ◼   ► We remember the special finishes.

01:29:11 ◼   ► I always liked the white 3GS.

01:29:14 ◼   ► That was fun.

01:29:16 ◼   ► - Sure.

01:29:17 ◼   ► Remember that white iPhone 4

01:29:19 ◼   ► that they didn't ship for seven months?

01:29:21 ◼   ► - 'Cause what was it?

01:29:22 ◼   ► The adhesive was going yellow or something?

01:29:23 ◼   ► - It was too yellow, yeah, yeah.

01:29:25 ◼   ► And that was like not up to spec for Steve Jobs.

01:29:27 ◼   ► - But they got it out there with the launch of Verizon.

01:29:31 ◼   ► - Yeah, that's a classic.

01:29:32 ◼   ► Somebody was talking about that.

01:29:33 ◼   ► It was like, when was the last time

01:29:34 ◼   ► that Apple did an iPhone launch without an event?

01:29:37 ◼   ► And I said, "I think it might be the Verizon iPhone 4."

01:29:41 ◼   ► - Well, they have Cs though, right?

01:29:44 ◼   ► - Or do they slide those into events?

01:29:45 ◼   ► Maybe so, I don't know.

01:29:46 ◼   ► Anyway, we didn't forget about your favorite iPhone color.

01:29:48 ◼   ► We just don't like it as much as ours.

01:29:50 ◼   ► - We just picked our own.

01:29:51 ◼   ► You know, it's about that thing like the yellow iPhone 4S

01:29:55 ◼   ► and the Verizon, like the amount of useless knowledge

01:29:58 ◼   ► that I retain about this stuff is frustrating to me

01:30:02 ◼   ► when there's important things in my life

01:30:03 ◼   ► that I can't remember.

01:30:05 ◼   ► But I can remember, well, which one was it?

01:30:08 ◼   ► When did they announce it?

01:30:09 ◼   ► Like I can remember that stuff,

01:30:10 ◼   ► but I can't remember like family birthdays.

01:30:15 ◼   ► Hey ho. Thank you so much for listening to this week's episode of Upgrade.

01:30:19 ◼   ► If you would like to send in a question of your own, just send out a tweet with

01:30:22 ◼   ► the hashtag #askupgrade or use question mark #askupgrade in the Relay FM Members

01:30:26 ◼   ► Discord, which you can get access to if you sign up for Upgrade Plus.

01:30:29 ◼   ► Go to getupgradeplus.com.

01:30:31 ◼   ► You get longer ad-free episodes of Upgrade every single week.

01:30:36 ◼   ► Access to many wonderful perks at Relay FM.

01:30:39 ◼   ► In my personal opinion, the best is access to our Members Discord, which is

01:30:44 ◼   ► awesome community of like-minded folk. Of Upgradians, it's the upgrade, uh, upgrade

01:30:49 ◼   ► Discord. Yep, that's, if you listen to Upgrade Plus, you know why he called it that. That's right.

01:30:54 ◼   ► So yeah, go to getupgradeplus.com, you can sign up five dollars a month or fifty dollars a year.

01:30:59 ◼   ► Our thanks to Doppler, New Relic, and Memberful for their support of this week's episode. If you

01:31:06 ◼   ► want to find Jason online, go to sixcolors.com. Jason is @jasenel. J-S-N-E-L-L-L. I am @dimeike.

01:31:13 ◼   ► I-M-Y-K-E. And we'll be back next time. Until then, say goodbye, Jason and Snell.

01:31:18 ◼   ► - Happy bank holiday to you and all the other banks. Are you a bank now? I guess you are.

01:31:25 ◼   ► - I don't know. - Banker Myke.

01:31:26 ◼   ► [MUSIC]