Upgrade

00:00:00 ◼   ► [BEEP]

00:00:00 ◼   ► [MUSIC]

00:00:08 ◼   ► From Relay FM, this is Upgrade, episode 392.

00:00:12 ◼   ► Today's show is brought to you by TextExpander, Capital One, ZocDoc, and Membr4.

00:00:17 ◼   ► My name is Myke Hurley. I'm joined by Jason Snell. Hi, Jason Snell.

00:00:21 ◼   ► Happy birthday, Myke Hurley.

00:00:23 ◼   ► Thank you very much, Jason. It's very kind of you to say.

00:00:25 ◼   ► It is, in fact, my birthday today as we're recording this,

00:00:29 ◼   ► because that's just how the world moves.

00:00:32 ◼   ► - If you listen to this a different day,

00:00:34 ◼   ► it's not his birthday anymore.

00:00:35 ◼   ► So sorry, you missed out.

00:00:36 ◼   ► - No, unless you just,

00:00:38 ◼   ► everybody decides to like observe my birthday

00:00:41 ◼   ► at the time when they listen to this.

00:00:43 ◼   ► - To upgrade 392?

00:00:45 ◼   ► - Yeah.

00:00:46 ◼   ► - It's always your birthday in this episode.

00:00:49 ◼   ► - I have a question, #SnailTalk question from Zach.

00:00:51 ◼   ► Zach wants to know, Jason,

00:00:52 ◼   ► do you use the Genie or scale effect

00:00:56 ◼   ► when you minimize windows on the Mac?

00:00:57 ◼   ► I was actually surprised today.

00:00:59 ◼   ► I don't know why it has surprised me

00:01:01 ◼   ► 'cause I was checking this,

00:01:02 ◼   ► that you choose between one or the other.

00:01:04 ◼   ► That was kind of a thought to me.

00:01:05 ◼   ► I was like, oh, isn't there just one

00:01:07 ◼   ► where there isn't an animation?

00:01:08 ◼   ► And the answer is no.

00:01:09 ◼   ► Which one do you use, Genie or Scale?

00:01:12 ◼   ► - So this is a classic OS X lore.

00:01:16 ◼   ► This is that thing where Steve Jobs demoed the Genie effect

00:01:20 ◼   ► and he did it like 10 times and he held down the key,

00:01:23 ◼   ► the option key to make it go slow

00:01:24 ◼   ► so you could see how cool it was.

00:01:26 ◼   ► And, um, that's great. And then everybody else was like, uh, it's kind of a lot. How

00:01:34 ◼   ► about just a simple scale effect? And, uh, they, they put that in there as an option.

00:01:38 ◼   ► It's like, you can choose the scale effect. You want, I choose the scale effect. I don't

00:01:42 ◼   ► like the genie effect. I agree with the people who said it's kind of showy and, and, uh,

00:01:47 ◼   ► it's unnecessary. I rarely see this effect regardless because, um, I very rarely am minimizing

00:01:52 ◼   ► a window into the dock on my Mac, but if I were to do that, I would see the scale effect.

00:02:01 ◼   ► I also, I just want to say this is like such a classic Apple bit of weird whimsy, and I'm

00:02:10 ◼   ► not sure whether this was like, I think Steve Jobs loved this stuff. I think it's like CoverFlow.

00:02:15 ◼   ► I think Steve Jobs had stuff that he just got a kick out of and he's like, "Yeah, let's

00:02:19 ◼   ► Let's put it in there. And I'm not sure Apple has whimsy quite like that anymore. I know

00:02:23 ◼   ► Marco Arment went on a tear about whimsy a while ago about Apple, but I think Apple wants

00:02:28 ◼   ► to do things that are whimsical. I just feel like today's Apple is probably more of a process,

00:02:33 ◼   ► the whimsicality process where they get a committee to get to the whimsy committee and

00:02:39 ◼   ► they have some scores and they have some analysis. They get some people in there to run the numbers

00:02:45 ◼   ► about whether this is too whimsical or whimsical enough. And then sometimes whimsy comes out,

00:02:49 ◼   ► but it's manufactured whimsy in a way that maybe back in the day it was really just like,

00:02:53 ◼   ► if you made Steve Jobs laugh, you got to keep your wacky thing in the product. And the Genie,

00:02:57 ◼   ► I think, is one of those. Also, it's showing off because they had every window as a texture,

00:03:04 ◼   ► because they were using, it was display postscript and then it was quartz, but it's like they

00:03:09 ◼   ► were using their compositing engine, which was at the time state of the art, best in

00:03:13 ◼   ► the business. And so you could do things like apply these wild effects on Windows. And so

00:03:20 ◼   ► it was also showing off on their part. But that's a long digression, just to say that

00:03:25 ◼   ► I have no whimsy in my settings. It's scale.

00:03:30 ◼   ► - Mine are all genie. I think that might be the default. And I've just never thought to

00:03:34 ◼   ► change it because I never minimize Windows.

00:03:37 ◼   ► - It's like a little memorial for Steve Jobs in every Mac, that thing. I really, seriously,

00:03:43 ◼   ► I think Steve Jobs just loved it and so it's just it's part of the lore and why change

00:03:47 ◼   ► it as we know from observing Apple over the years if Apple doesn't have to change an aspect

00:03:54 ◼   ► like the like the images in the login screen if it doesn't have to make changes it just

00:03:58 ◼   ► leaves things there for decades so that's the genie effect.

00:04:03 ◼   ► If you would like to send in a question to help us open an episode of Upgrade just send

00:04:08 ◼   ► out a tweet with the hashtag #SNELtalk or use question mark SNELtalk in the Relay FM

00:04:11 ◼   ► members discord. Please send them in, I would appreciate them. This one I pulled

00:04:15 ◼   ► from the archives, I would love some new Snell Talk questions. Oh yeah, please. I have some

00:04:20 ◼   ► follow-up for you Jason. Chris wrote in to let us know that the UK Warner store

00:04:24 ◼   ► has Ted Lasso merch now. Alright, get in there. Unfortunately everything that I

00:04:29 ◼   ► wanted was out of stock. Hmm. So I got a I got an off-brand Richmond t-shirt for

00:04:35 ◼   ► Christmas. Okay. Lauren wanted to find one and she actually found, ironically enough,

00:04:40 ◼   ► she found the one that John Moltz makes on Cotton Hero.

00:04:43 ◼   ► - I was about to ask if that was the place.

00:04:46 ◼   ► - And she didn't realize it.

00:04:47 ◼   ► And then she's like, "Oh, you know this person, right?"

00:04:50 ◼   ► Yeah, that's John Moltz's off-brand one.

00:04:53 ◼   ► And I was recognized on the street.

00:04:55 ◼   ► I wore it walking the dog the other day

00:04:58 ◼   ► and somebody was like, "Hey, Ted Lasso."

00:04:59 ◼   ► So they're out there.

00:05:01 ◼   ► Anyway, you can buy your,

00:05:03 ◼   ► you can not buy it because everybody in the UK

00:05:05 ◼   ► has already purchased Ted Lasso merch apparently.

00:05:08 ◼   ► - Yep, so I put my name,

00:05:09 ◼   ► like they have like an email thing and so I put it in and then once they restock.

00:05:13 ◼   ► I want the sweatshirt like the AFC Richmond sweatshirt that they have.

00:05:18 ◼   ► It's as it says on the website they're most popular and I'm not surprised so I want one

00:05:23 ◼   ► of those and so as soon as it comes into stock I will buy one and then I can I don't know

00:05:28 ◼   ► shave my beard with my mustache and walk around as if I'm Ted Lasso.

00:05:32 ◼   ► I wouldn't have a good enough mustache like my mustache wouldn't be.

00:05:36 ◼   ► No one does that's the that's the beauty of it is nobody does.

00:05:39 ◼   ► That's a real mustache, right?

00:05:41 ◼   ► Yeah, he grows that.

00:05:42 ◼   ► It looks real.

00:05:43 ◼   ► I think I saw a picture recently that seemed to suggest that they were starting shooting

00:05:47 ◼   ► again, someone on Instagram.

00:05:48 ◼   ► I think it was the guy who plays Coach Beard.

00:05:51 ◼   ► They were all getting on what looked like a private jet, which kind of looked kind of

00:05:55 ◼   ► cool.

00:05:56 ◼   ► Did you, do you think that it's possible that sometimes somebody's gonna either buy like

00:06:01 ◼   ► a lower division UK football team and just turn them into the Richmond Greyhounds or

00:06:07 ◼   ► or that there's going to be some sort of promotion

00:06:08 ◼   ► where somebody wears the Richmond kit for a game

00:06:11 ◼   ► or something like that.

00:06:12 ◼   ► Do you think somebody, a stunt like that?

00:06:14 ◼   ► - I could imagine Apple doing something like that,

00:06:17 ◼   ► like convincing a team to call themselves AFC Richmond.

00:06:22 ◼   ► 'Cause they do stuff like this

00:06:23 ◼   ► and they've done stuff like this,

00:06:25 ◼   ► funnily enough, mostly in the US, right?

00:06:27 ◼   ► Where they like take over a store or something

00:06:29 ◼   ► and it's like they sell the shortbread.

00:06:32 ◼   ► I could imagine there being some kind of stunt

00:06:35 ◼   ► in an offseason game or something of AFC Richmond or something like that. And maybe having Jason

00:06:42 ◼   ► Sudeikis there, something like that, I could imagine that happening.

00:06:45 ◼   ► I'm actually a little surprised that a lower division, maybe they have and I just haven't

00:06:50 ◼   ► heard about it, a lower division team in America hasn't done that. Like in the second division

00:06:54 ◼   ► here just hasn't said. I know we're the Tucson whatevers, but apologies to my friends in

00:06:59 ◼   ► Tucson who are actually supporters of the Tucson whatevers. I can't remember their name.

00:07:03 ◼   ► And they're like, no, no, no, now we're AFC Richmond for a game. Maybe.

00:07:06 ◼   ► I mean, the Discord is mentioning, which is a good point, Ryan Reynolds and the Catherine

00:07:12 ◼   ► Miffit quest, oh my God, he's blanking on his name now, from Oisani.

00:07:16 ◼   ► McElhaney. Yeah, they bought a football club in Wales

00:07:19 ◼   ► called Wrexham. Yes, they did. And they're doing a little

00:07:23 ◼   ► show about that. It's FC Tucson, by the way. So of course, they're the Tucson whatevers

00:07:26 ◼   ► because they don't have a name. They're just FC Tucson. So they could be FC Tucson. And

00:07:29 ◼   ► now like oh surprise we're at AFC Richmond for a game.

00:07:34 ◼   ► - FC Tucson sounds like a Star Wars droid.

00:07:36 ◼   ► - See I was gonna say it's a rapper.

00:07:40 ◼   ► - FC Tucson.

00:07:41 ◼   ► - Yeah.

00:07:42 ◼   ► - And then we like MC Tucson.

00:07:44 ◼   ► - Like MC Tucson, yeah.

00:07:45 ◼   ► - Yeah.

00:07:46 ◼   ► Apple has made the first episode of their new show,

00:07:49 ◼   ► The After Party available for free on YouTube.

00:07:53 ◼   ► This is a Chris Miller and Phil Lord.

00:07:57 ◼   ► - Lord.

00:07:58 ◼   ► - Yeah, production.

00:07:58 ◼   ► This is Chris Miller's like solo thing I think but they're both executive producing it. Like

00:08:03 ◼   ► he's written it and is directing it like created it and directing it.

00:08:07 ◼   ► So it's the Lego movie and they're both involved in the movie.

00:08:10 ◼   ► 21 Jump Street and Spider-verse and loads of other things.

00:08:14 ◼   ► Yeah so the first episodes on YouTube they dropped the first three this seems to be Apple's

00:08:18 ◼   ► model now right as they drop the first three if they can of a new show.

00:08:22 ◼   ► This show needed it this show needed the first three at once.

00:08:25 ◼   ► they put the YouTube, I watched the first two.

00:08:27 ◼   ► - Yeah.

00:08:28 ◼   ► - But yeah, you do need it 'cause the premise

00:08:31 ◼   ► is kind of like it's a murder mystery

00:08:33 ◼   ► where there's a sort of a locked room

00:08:35 ◼   ► with a bunch of guests in it

00:08:36 ◼   ► and then one of them is the murderer.

00:08:38 ◼   ► But there are, it's not quite what I thought it was

00:08:41 ◼   ► where they were like every episode is its own genre.

00:08:43 ◼   ► It's not quite that because there's lots

00:08:45 ◼   ► of framing sequence stuff that is--

00:08:47 ◼   ► - That's how they kind of pitched it,

00:08:49 ◼   ► but it's like there's these two things going on at once.

00:08:52 ◼   ► There's like the crime trying to be solved,

00:08:55 ◼   ► and then the interviews that are occurring.

00:08:58 ◼   ► And the interviews are then all told from that person's

00:09:02 ◼   ► kind of imagination and memory.

00:09:04 ◼   ► And they are then set within different kind

00:09:06 ◼   ► of TV and movie genres.

00:09:07 ◼   ► So, right, Tiffany Haddish is the lead, basically.

00:09:11 ◼   ► And she's the detective who's got one night to solve

00:09:13 ◼   ► the case because then they're bringing in some fancy detective

00:09:16 ◼   ► to solve it.

00:09:17 ◼   ► But she's the local detective, and she's

00:09:18 ◼   ► going to try to solve it.

00:09:20 ◼   ► And so she sits people down and she's like, you know,

00:09:24 ◼   ► tell me your point of view

00:09:25 ◼   ► because she's very knowledgeable about like every—

00:09:28 ◼   ► everybody's got their own movie that they are the star of.

00:09:31 ◼   ► And that is the premise of the show.

00:09:32 ◼   ► So the first episode is this is a romantic comedy.

00:09:35 ◼   ► And the second episode is this is a Fast

00:09:37 ◼   ► and Furious movie essentially. And she's great.

00:09:41 ◼   ► -The third is a musical. -Awesome.

00:09:44 ◼   ► And the cast is kind of amazing.

00:09:46 ◼   ► There's a lot of people in there where you're like, "Wait, what?"

00:09:48 ◼   ► -Yeah, the cast is absolutely incredible.

00:09:50 ◼   ► - I had a funny moment where there's a guy,

00:09:53 ◼   ► character's name is Brett,

00:09:54 ◼   ► is kind of the star of the second episode,

00:09:57 ◼   ► which is just incredibly good.

00:09:59 ◼   ► - Yeah, it's good.

00:10:00 ◼   ► - And the whole time I'm like, I know this guy,

00:10:03 ◼   ► I know this guy.

00:10:04 ◼   ► And he really reminded me of a character

00:10:08 ◼   ► in the show Superstore, NBC Superstore.

00:10:11 ◼   ► And it's because it's his brother.

00:10:12 ◼   ► - It's his brother, yeah.

00:10:13 ◼   ► And I was gonna say, I also know this actor

00:10:15 ◼   ► because I refer to him as not Wahlberg.

00:10:18 ◼   ► - Yes, I mean, I think that's why he was cast

00:10:20 ◼   ► - Honestly, 'cause he's-- - Uh-huh, he looks like

00:10:21 ◼   ► a Wahlberg, but not-- - As soon as I saw him,

00:10:23 ◼   ► I was like, "Oh, I know who you are."

00:10:25 ◼   ► - Slightly melted Wahlberg? (laughs)

00:10:26 ◼   ► - Yeah, yeah, he looks so much like Mark Wahlberg,

00:10:29 ◼   ► but also like his brother. (laughs)

00:10:32 ◼   ► - Who's the big dummy in "Superstore," yeah.

00:10:34 ◼   ► - This is a very fun show, but the first episode--

00:10:37 ◼   ► - I think so. - Is okay.

00:10:39 ◼   ► - It's okay.

00:10:39 ◼   ► - It's the second episode, and then it gets even better

00:10:42 ◼   ► with the third episode.

00:10:43 ◼   ► I think they kinda ramp up.

00:10:44 ◼   ► - Because you gotta understand that the premise is that--

00:10:46 ◼   ► - Yeah. - They keep cycling

00:10:47 ◼   ► through these different, everybody's got a different view

00:10:48 ◼   ► of what happened and it is a Rashomon thing.

00:10:51 ◼   ► I mean, it is literally, you keep seeing the same events

00:10:54 ◼   ► for that night through everybody's film genre perspective.

00:10:58 ◼   ► That's the big idea.

00:11:00 ◼   ► But after two episodes, I can say, I'm three for you,

00:11:02 ◼   ► that it's a pretty well executed, it's a fun idea.

00:11:05 ◼   ► - Yeah, I like, you know, like when these things

00:11:08 ◼   ► are done well, it's like you see how it's the same goings on

00:11:12 ◼   ► but they're different.

00:11:13 ◼   ► Like they're slightly different in important ways

00:11:17 ◼   ► from person to person.

00:11:18 ◼   ► My understanding of this show is like,

00:11:21 ◼   ► the way that it was pitched is,

00:11:22 ◼   ► it is possible for us to work out who it is before the end.

00:11:27 ◼   ► Like that's how I was reading about,

00:11:28 ◼   ► that's how they were pitching this.

00:11:30 ◼   ► Is like, the clues apparently are there

00:11:33 ◼   ► and you can try and come up with your own idea

00:11:37 ◼   ► before the end.

00:11:38 ◼   ► That's my hope.

00:11:39 ◼   ► I really hope that this isn't one of those ones

00:11:41 ◼   ► where they kind of cop out

00:11:42 ◼   ► and it's a thing you never could have worked out.

00:11:44 ◼   ► You know what I mean?

00:11:45 ◼   ► It's like, oh, it was this person, which is a character that wasn't in the show, and they

00:11:51 ◼   ► did it?

00:11:52 ◼   ► Yeah, they seem to be playing fair because they have to go, they're crossing over the

00:11:55 ◼   ► same time, iterating over the same time again and again, and although it's all from individual's

00:12:00 ◼   ► perspectives, there's a limit to how much you can cheat on that.

00:12:04 ◼   ► So I think they have to have it all locked down about exactly what happened, and then

00:12:08 ◼   ► it's just in the ways that it's revealed.

00:12:11 ◼   ► I want to throw out another show, by the way,

00:12:13 ◼   ► that is not on Apple TV Plus, it's on Peacock in the US.

00:12:17 ◼   ► It was a BBC show, so you already, I guess,

00:12:22 ◼   ► saw it or missed it.

00:12:24 ◼   ► But speaking of mysteries, it's just on Peacock now.

00:12:28 ◼   ► It's called "Vigil," and it's a six-episode, I think,

00:12:32 ◼   ► series about a murder on a submarine,

00:12:37 ◼   ► a British Navy submarine.

00:12:40 ◼   ► And because it happens in UK territorial waters, they actually send a police officer to the

00:12:50 ◼   ► submarine while it's on its mission to find out the truth.

00:12:58 ◼   ► And it's kind of a, it's like a locked, it's a really locked room mystery, right?

00:13:02 ◼   ► Because it's everybody's on the submarine.

00:13:06 ◼   ► And the reason I wanted to mention it is that there's a moment in the second episode, I

00:13:09 ◼   ► I think where you wonder if they're playing fair or not and then you realize that it's

00:13:13 ◼   ► that it's that reveal of like oh this is more complicated than we thought it was kind of

00:13:17 ◼   ► kind of thing but I I'm loving that show and people should check that out too so vigil

00:13:23 ◼   ► it's on Peacock in the US and it's probably available somewhere readily available in the

00:13:27 ◼   ► UK because you know it's from there yeah maybe she's a bit weird yeah I don't know I don't

00:13:34 ◼   ► know whether they go away or come back or go to some strange streaming service or what

00:13:39 ◼   ► even though I pay for it, because it's basically a tax on the UK people.

00:13:43 ◼   ► After a certain period, things come off iPlayer and they go to Brickbox

00:13:46 ◼   ► and I have to pay for them.

00:13:47 ◼   ► - I see, well... - So, you know,

00:13:49 ◼   ► got to get them on both ends, I suppose.

00:13:51 ◼   ► Dutch regulators are unhappy with Apple's plans

00:13:54 ◼   ► for allowing third-party payments for dating apps.

00:13:57 ◼   ► So you remember we were talking about this.

00:13:59 ◼   ► This is one of the things that Apple then published,

00:14:01 ◼   ► the support documentation, developer documentation

00:14:04 ◼   ► for how to get the entitlements to be able to be

00:14:07 ◼   ► offering third-party payments or links out to go and pay,

00:14:12 ◼   ► like for people to pay you if you want to use a dating app.

00:14:16 ◼   ► Well, Dutch regulators are unhappy with the way

00:14:18 ◼   ► that Apple is doing this.

00:14:19 ◼   ► They are saying that it's against their rules

00:14:23 ◼   ► that they've set out that developers must choose

00:14:26 ◼   ► between whether they send customers to a web page

00:14:28 ◼   ► or integrate a third-party system.

00:14:30 ◼   ► Dutch regulators say they should be able to do both.

00:14:32 ◼   ► So Apple has set out this thing where they're like,

00:14:34 ◼   ► hey, you can apply for an entitlement

00:14:37 ◼   ► and you can either A, integrate a third party payment system

00:14:40 ◼   ► or B, send your customers out to pay on the web.

00:14:45 ◼   ► - Right.

00:14:46 ◼   ► - Dutch regulators are saying no,

00:14:47 ◼   ► they should be able to do all of these things.

00:14:49 ◼   ► This wasn't in the ruling, but I wouldn't be surprised

00:14:51 ◼   ► if they're also gonna contest the separate binary thing,

00:14:54 ◼   ► but we'll see how that goes.

00:14:56 ◼   ► The regulators are also unhappy that the system

00:14:59 ◼   ► hasn't actually been implemented,

00:15:00 ◼   ► it's kind of just been announced and put your email address

00:15:03 ◼   ► in here and maybe we'll get back to you.

00:15:05 ◼   ► And they're now fining them. They're fining apples.

00:15:08 ◼   ► - $5 million a week for the maximum of $50 million,

00:15:12 ◼   ► which, you know, is --

00:15:16 ◼   ► This is that classic thing, which is that if you're --

00:15:18 ◼   ► if you've got all the money in the world, a fee --

00:15:22 ◼   ► a fine is just a fee,

00:15:24 ◼   ► and you can just keep doing the thing you're doing because --

00:15:27 ◼   ► -How much is it gonna pay for us to do this?

00:15:29 ◼   ► How much is it gonna pay for us to do this?

00:15:29 ◼   ► -Yeah, can we just write a check

00:15:30 ◼   ► to make you go away at that point?

00:15:32 ◼   ► Like, and I know that that's not what the purpose

00:15:34 ◼   ► of the Dutch government is

00:15:34 ◼   ► and that they can change their finding structure and they can do whatever. But I think it's

00:15:38 ◼   ► interesting that it is a find that I would say Apple is not going to care about. Apple

00:15:45 ◼   ► is worried more about the big picture about what this means internationally than it does

00:15:49 ◼   ► in this one market.

00:15:50 ◼   ► I mean that fine though, like I mean it goes up to then what happens once they've got that?

00:15:54 ◼   ► I mean then we might start getting into even murkier legal waters, right? It's like okay,

00:15:58 ◼   ► we fined you the maximum amount, you still haven't done it, so now we're gonna go through

00:16:02 ◼   ► this all over again, you know.

00:16:03 ◼   ► I think it also shows Apple's gonna be put on its own pace.

00:16:06 ◼   ► It's not gonna be put on someone else's pace

00:16:08 ◼   ► and they don't like that.

00:16:10 ◼   ► The Dutch regulators are like,

00:16:11 ◼   ► "No, no, we told you to do this."

00:16:12 ◼   ► And I think there's an argument to be made

00:16:14 ◼   ► that a regulator coming down and saying,

00:16:16 ◼   ► "Change this technical thing right away."

00:16:20 ◼   ► There's, I have no doubt that Apple is dragging its feet,

00:16:24 ◼   ► but also it's unrealistic to say,

00:16:26 ◼   ► "Do this thing, we told you to do it."

00:16:28 ◼   ► It's like any of these court orders

00:16:29 ◼   ► that say you have to do this.

00:16:31 ◼   ► I think even if Apple is trying to long play it

00:16:33 ◼   ► and drag its feet on it, there is to a certain degree truth in the fact that this is highly

00:16:39 ◼   ► technical and I can't just flip a switch.

00:16:41 ◼   ► No, they're making part of this more complicated than it needs to be. You shouldn't need to

00:16:44 ◼   ► have an entitlement to go outside of the App Store.

00:16:48 ◼   ► Oh sure, like I said, this is what I mean about dragging their feet, but I don't think

00:16:51 ◼   ► it's as easy as just saying "okay, we'll just accept it now."

00:16:54 ◼   ► The integrating of third-party options is complicated, but the idea of having a link

00:16:59 ◼   ► where someone could then just go out to the app store and then come back.

00:17:03 ◼   ► That's true.

00:17:03 ◼   ► That doesn't require anything.

00:17:05 ◼   ► They're just making that more complicated than it needs to be so they can try and control it.

00:17:09 ◼   ► Sure.

00:17:10 ◼   ► We're just going to say to everybody who didn't believe us, we told you so.

00:17:15 ◼   ► Back in episode 299 of Upgrade, when Spotify bought the Joe Rogan experience,

00:17:22 ◼   ► we said, "This is going to be a problem for Spotify."

00:17:26 ◼   ► And we were right.

00:17:27 ◼   ► It is.

00:17:29 ◼   ► - And without getting into the whole debate,

00:17:31 ◼   ► because there are a lot of people out there like,

00:17:33 ◼   ► oh, this is, of course this was gonna happen,

00:17:34 ◼   ► and you know, Spotify's business strategy.

00:17:37 ◼   ► All we said was, by funding a very controversial podcast,

00:17:42 ◼   ► they are going to bring trouble onto themselves

00:17:48 ◼   ► that they didn't need to do, but they've chosen to do

00:17:51 ◼   ► by funding this very popular,

00:17:54 ◼   ► but also very controversial podcast.

00:17:56 ◼   ► And we predicted at the time

00:17:58 ◼   ► that there would be things that Joe Rogan would say or do

00:18:02 ◼   ► that would lead to controversy

00:18:04 ◼   ► that would then reflect badly on Spotify

00:18:07 ◼   ► and cause Spotify to have to deal with the PR mess of it.

00:18:11 ◼   ► And that that was the price they were going to pay

00:18:14 ◼   ► beyond the money of funding Joe Rogan

00:18:17 ◼   ► and making him a Spotify exclusive.

00:18:19 ◼   ► And we heard from a few people, one in particular,

00:18:22 ◼   ► and I don't actually even remember who it was now,

00:18:24 ◼   ► but one in particular stuck with both of us.

00:18:26 ◼   ► They're like, no, this isn't gonna happen.

00:18:29 ◼   ► They will never regret this.

00:18:30 ◼   ► It'll be fine.

00:18:32 ◼   ► And every time something like this happens,

00:18:35 ◼   ► you and I send messages back and forth saying, no regrets.

00:18:38 ◼   ► It's all fine.

00:18:39 ◼   ► - Always.

00:18:39 ◼   ► - But it's really exploded in the last week.

00:18:42 ◼   ► And again, in the long term of Spotify's business,

00:18:44 ◼   ► will it matter?

00:18:45 ◼   ► Will it not?

00:18:46 ◼   ► I don't know.

00:18:47 ◼   ► It just feels to me like they made a decision

00:18:50 ◼   ► that was like their big, bold business move to say,

00:18:55 ◼   ► haha, we own the most popular podcast. And maybe we're not properly estimating all of

00:19:05 ◼   ► the cleanup they were going to have to do again and again and again. But here they are.

00:19:12 ◼   ► So yeah, we told you so.

00:19:14 ◼   ► Let me tell you the mistake that they made, which I think is a mistake that we knew was

00:19:18 ◼   ► the issue at the time. Joe Rogan hasn't changed the type of content that he's making.

00:19:23 ◼   ► No, the show is the show.

00:19:25 ◼   ► This is the show.

00:19:26 ◼   ► This is what it always was.

00:19:27 ◼   ► It's not like, "Oh, you know, Joe Rogan was just a normal guy and then he got that Spotify

00:19:30 ◼   ► money and he got all wacky."

00:19:32 ◼   ► No.

00:19:33 ◼   ► The problem is, like, there was people that didn't like him, they had nowhere to go, right?

00:19:40 ◼   ► Because, like, he wasn't really doing things that could get him thrown off of Apple podcasts

00:19:45 ◼   ► like Alex Jones was, right?

00:19:47 ◼   ► Like, Alex Jones is just way worse, you know?

00:19:49 ◼   ► Like he was, it was like lots of hate speech and racism and to my knowledge at least, Joe

00:19:57 ◼   ► Rogan's not in that boat, otherwise people would be asking Apple podcast to take him

00:20:01 ◼   ► off.

00:20:02 ◼   ► He just says lots of things that are very controversial, not very well thought out and

00:20:07 ◼   ► most of the time like are not based in fact.

00:20:12 ◼   ► And you know, it's like you can question then whether you know, he should be taken off of

00:20:16 ◼   ► every single podcast platform around.

00:20:19 ◼   ► But the issue here is Spotify employ him basically.

00:20:24 ◼   ► - Yes, that's exactly it.

00:20:25 ◼   ► They fund him.

00:20:26 ◼   ► It's not a, or am I gonna be,

00:20:29 ◼   ► 'cause Spotify wants to have it both ways.

00:20:31 ◼   ► They wanna say, "Oh, we're an open platform."

00:20:32 ◼   ► And so we let everything on and you know,

00:20:34 ◼   ► there's weird podcasts on Apple's podcast too.

00:20:37 ◼   ► But it's not the same because he's funded

00:20:40 ◼   ► specifically by Spotify.

00:20:43 ◼   ► It would be different if he was on all the podcast services,

00:20:46 ◼   ► including Spotify, and then everybody would be like,

00:20:49 ◼   ► "Should Joe Rogan have a platform?"

00:20:51 ◼   ► And all the platforms would say,

00:20:52 ◼   ► "You know, we're not gonna intercede here."

00:20:55 ◼   ► But it's not that argument.

00:20:56 ◼   ► The argument is Spotify owns him and they pay him.

00:21:01 ◼   ► And so that is a higher standard

00:21:03 ◼   ► that they have to answer for.

00:21:05 ◼   ► - And then it gave people the ability to write articles

00:21:10 ◼   ► and to complain to this company.

00:21:11 ◼   ► And now it's like Spotify is Joe Rogan.

00:21:14 ◼   ► And now we're into different waters now, right?

00:21:17 ◼   ► like I mean if you had an axe to grind you could grind it and attack him with it but

00:21:21 ◼   ► then also just more people were paying attention and the more people that pay attention the

00:21:26 ◼   ► more stuff we can pull out and say like this guy says wild things does this match with

00:21:33 ◼   ► Spotify's corporate guidelines and so now Spotify have made some really kind of laughable

00:21:39 ◼   ► I think in some places corporate like speech guidelines again as if like the really funny

00:21:44 ◼   ► thing to me about this is they have created a series of things you can and can't talk

00:21:49 ◼   ► about kind of like YouTube has but YouTube doesn't own the content. Spotify owns this

00:21:57 ◼   ► content like that's the difference.

00:21:59 ◼   ► M: They put out in there in there again because the point here is that they're doing massive

00:22:03 ◼   ► damage control over Joe Rogan because they decided to fund Joe Rogan yeah despite the

00:22:08 ◼   ► fact it was clear this sort of stuff was gonna happen yeah and clear to us anyway in episode

00:22:13 ◼   ► 299 almost a hundred weeks ago now.

00:22:16 ◼   ► So, but the issue is also they're like,

00:22:18 ◼   ► "Oh, well, we've got some new guidelines in place

00:22:20 ◼   ► "and we're gonna look at every podcast."

00:22:22 ◼   ► And like, okay, what does that mean

00:22:24 ◼   ► you're gonna look at every podcast?

00:22:25 ◼   ► Are you gonna have somebody listen

00:22:26 ◼   ► to every podcast on Spotify?

00:22:27 ◼   ► Is it only the ones you fund or is it all of them?

00:22:30 ◼   ► 'Cause they're like, "We're gonna put labels on

00:22:31 ◼   ► "about anything that covers COVID-19."

00:22:33 ◼   ► It's like, well, are you now analyzing every podcast?

00:22:36 ◼   ► That seems unlikely that you're actually gonna do that.

00:22:39 ◼   ► Or is it just the ones that you fund?

00:22:41 ◼   ► - And they don't need to do this.

00:22:42 ◼   ► Like they don't, this is the thing,

00:22:44 ◼   ► I don't think they need to do this part, right?

00:22:46 ◼   ► Like now they've gone too far, now they're like YouTube.

00:22:49 ◼   ► All anyone's asking them to do

00:22:51 ◼   ► is focus on the content they own.

00:22:54 ◼   ► And then outside of that,

00:22:56 ◼   ► just respond to people's complaints, right?

00:22:58 ◼   ► Like this is how everybody else works.

00:23:00 ◼   ► 'Cause it's, no one owns this content.

00:23:02 ◼   ► YouTube has to go the extra step

00:23:03 ◼   ► because they make money from all the content, right?

00:23:06 ◼   ► And so they only have these rules in place

00:23:09 ◼   ► because they wanna have rules to say,

00:23:11 ◼   ► you broke the rules and advertisers complain to them

00:23:13 ◼   ► that this content's on the platform, right?

00:23:15 ◼   ► So like Spotify is doing this huge run around

00:23:19 ◼   ► just to try and quell the anger that people have.

00:23:23 ◼   ► - It's a distraction, it's damage control.

00:23:25 ◼   ► And our point here, by the way,

00:23:28 ◼   ► is not to reopen this whole issue of platforms

00:23:31 ◼   ► and whether Joe Rogan should have a platform

00:23:35 ◼   ► or anything like that, it's really not.

00:23:36 ◼   ► Our point here is to say Spotify made what they thought

00:23:39 ◼   ► was a galaxy brain move to take the biggest podcast

00:23:43 ◼   ► on the internet and make it a Spotify exclusive.

00:23:47 ◼   ► And a bunch of people were like,

00:23:49 ◼   ► are you sure you wanna go down the path

00:23:51 ◼   ► of owning and operating what this guy says?

00:23:55 ◼   ► 'Cause this guy says a lot of kind of wacky stuff

00:23:57 ◼   ► and makes a lot of people really angry.

00:24:00 ◼   ► And you're gonna have to justify it

00:24:01 ◼   ► because you own it now.

00:24:03 ◼   ► Like literally, I know they don't really own it.

00:24:05 ◼   ► And when it's done, Joe Rogan,

00:24:07 ◼   ► I think walks away with the content.

00:24:08 ◼   ► But like, metaphorically, you own your actions,

00:24:12 ◼   ► you own this podcast.

00:24:14 ◼   ► And I think Spotify probably, you know,

00:24:18 ◼   ► you could give them credit and say that they just

00:24:20 ◼   ► were clueless, but I think the truth is probably

00:24:22 ◼   ► that they were just arrogant and they're like,

00:24:23 ◼   ► nah, it'll be fine, we're great.

00:24:25 ◼   ► - Who's gonna care, yeah, it'll be fine.

00:24:26 ◼   ► - It'll be great.

00:24:27 ◼   ► - He's gotten by this far, we'll be fine.

00:24:28 ◼   ► - And this is not the first blow up,

00:24:30 ◼   ► it is the biggest blow up.

00:24:31 ◼   ► They will continue to happen because Joe Rogan,

00:24:34 ◼   ► bless his heart, is not changing.

00:24:37 ◼   ► He's just gonna do what he's gonna do.

00:24:38 ◼   ► It's made him wildly successful.

00:24:39 ◼   ► - He put out this thing, which I cannot believe,

00:24:42 ◼   ► and he's just like,

00:24:43 ◼   ► "I don't even prepare for these conversations."

00:24:45 ◼   ► It's like, "You're not surprising me, Joe.

00:24:47 ◼   ► "I'm not surprised that you don't do

00:24:49 ◼   ► "even the basic level of work

00:24:51 ◼   ► "for your massively successful podcast."

00:24:53 ◼   ► You know, it's hilarious to me,

00:24:56 ◼   ► how much more work we do for this show

00:24:58 ◼   ► than he does for his show, but hey ho.

00:25:00 ◼   ► So the fact that he says that and he's kind of proud of it,

00:25:03 ◼   ► is like, that means he's never gonna change.

00:25:05 ◼   ► I was thinking about this a bit over the weekend.

00:25:08 ◼   ► Amazon have got this right.

00:25:10 ◼   ► Amazon are doing, they're smart.

00:25:12 ◼   ► Amazon are smarter because what they're doing,

00:25:14 ◼   ► when they just did another one of these deals

00:25:17 ◼   ► with My Favorite Murder, they don't own the content.

00:25:22 ◼   ► They just have exclusive first rights to the content

00:25:25 ◼   ► and sell all the ads.

00:25:26 ◼   ► That's the better way to do this

00:25:28 ◼   ► because then you don't own it.

00:25:30 ◼   ► You're just distributing it like everybody else.

00:25:32 ◼   ► You distribute it just earlier.

00:25:34 ◼   ► And I think that that is a more separated thing

00:25:38 ◼   ► and you're still benefiting because people

00:25:40 ◼   ► that love the show will want it before,

00:25:42 ◼   ► will want it a week before everybody else gets the show.

00:25:45 ◼   ► So maybe they'll check out Amazon Music for their podcasts.

00:25:48 ◼   ► By the way, Amazon Music has been a previous sponsor

00:25:50 ◼   ► of the show, I'll just say that.

00:25:51 ◼   ► This is absolutely zero to do

00:25:52 ◼   ► what I'm talking about right now.

00:25:54 ◼   ► - Sure.

00:25:55 ◼   ► - But then they sell all the ads,

00:25:56 ◼   ► which is where all the money comes from anyway.

00:25:58 ◼   ► And because they sell all the ads,

00:26:00 ◼   ► they're gonna get more listeners,

00:26:01 ◼   ► they get more money in, right?

00:26:03 ◼   ► which is where Spotify are kind of locking it down.

00:26:05 ◼   ► I think that Amazon's is the smarter way.

00:26:07 ◼   ► - It's all distinctions, right?

00:26:08 ◼   ► The Amazon, you've got a business relationship

00:26:10 ◼   ► and you can put pressure on that,

00:26:11 ◼   ► but it's not the same as saying,

00:26:12 ◼   ► this is a Spotify exclusive, we own it, it is our baby.

00:26:17 ◼   ► It is, it's a different thing.

00:26:18 ◼   ► And again, their issue this last week has been with,

00:26:23 ◼   ► with musicians pulling their music off

00:26:28 ◼   ► in protest of Joe Rogan being on Spotify,

00:26:31 ◼   ► which comes up with another thing,

00:26:32 ◼   ► which is, again, I have to ask the question,

00:26:36 ◼   ► is the opportunity to own podcasting

00:26:40 ◼   ► worth it to Spotify to have issues

00:26:44 ◼   ► with its core business, which is music?

00:26:47 ◼   ► - You've got to imagine there's some very tense meetings

00:26:52 ◼   ► between division heads at Spotify right now, right?

00:26:54 ◼   ► Like the head of music and the head of podcasts,

00:26:56 ◼   ► they're probably not friends at the moment.

00:26:59 ◼   ► - Yeah, yeah, and it's funny too,

00:27:00 ◼   ► 'cause this is a very different kind of business

00:27:02 ◼   ► for Spotify because music doesn't really have,

00:27:04 ◼   ► as we said back in episode 299,

00:27:06 ◼   ► music doesn't really have exclusives in the same way.

00:27:08 ◼   ► I mean, yeah, there's like live sessions

00:27:10 ◼   ► and stuff like that.

00:27:11 ◼   ► But for the most part releases just are released

00:27:13 ◼   ► and they're everywhere.

00:27:14 ◼   ► And this whole thing was an idea of like,

00:27:16 ◼   ► we're not gonna just put podcasts in Spotify,

00:27:18 ◼   ► we're gonna force some podcasts to only be in Spotify

00:27:21 ◼   ► and you're gonna have to get them there.

00:27:22 ◼   ► By the way, I wanna, before we move on from this topic,

00:27:25 ◼   ► I wanna mention another couple of things.

00:27:26 ◼   ► One of the top five, no,

00:27:28 ◼   ► it's probably the top 15 podcasts in Apple Podcasts

00:27:32 ◼   ► is a podcast with a picture of Joe Rogan on it

00:27:34 ◼   ► and the words Joe Rogan Experience

00:27:37 ◼   ► in the name of the podcast,

00:27:39 ◼   ► but it's actually a podcast about what happened

00:27:41 ◼   ► on that week's Joe Rogan podcast.

00:27:43 ◼   ► (laughing)

00:27:44 ◼   ► - It's the Joe Joe Rogan,

00:27:45 ◼   ► Rogan Rogan Experience experience.

00:27:47 ◼   ► - It is, and it is in the top charts

00:27:50 ◼   ► because people are looking on Apple Podcasts for Joe Rogan

00:27:54 ◼   ► and not finding it.

00:27:55 ◼   ► It's number nine at the moment.

00:27:57 ◼   ► It is the Joe Rogan Experience Review Podcast

00:28:00 ◼   ► - With a big fat picture of Joe Rogan right in the center.

00:28:03 ◼   ► - Oh my, how?

00:28:04 ◼   ► (laughing)

00:28:06 ◼   ► - And like good for the guy who does that

00:28:09 ◼   ► because he is, that is the ultimate search engine squatting

00:28:13 ◼   ► going on there.

00:28:14 ◼   ► So, yeah.

00:28:16 ◼   ► - They got Joe Rogan Experience Review Podcast

00:28:18 ◼   ► is one that I see.

00:28:20 ◼   ► There's probably quite a few of them.

00:28:22 ◼   ► - That's the number nine,

00:28:23 ◼   ► number nine podcast on Apple Podcasts right now.

00:28:26 ◼   ► - That's just, there's something to that.

00:28:27 ◼   ► - Because people are looking for it, right?

00:28:28 ◼   ► And that's what they're getting.

00:28:30 ◼   ► - So one thing, I don't think this story is over.

00:28:33 ◼   ► Really the question is,

00:28:35 ◼   ► if there's gonna be a musician big enough.

00:28:38 ◼   ► - Right.

00:28:39 ◼   ► - No offense to Neil Young and Joni Mitchell.

00:28:41 ◼   ► - Neil Young and Joni Mitchell.

00:28:44 ◼   ► - Not big enough, not important enough in Spotify's eyes.

00:28:48 ◼   ► I mean like look.

00:28:49 ◼   ► - Because the point too, their point is not to--

00:28:52 ◼   ► - Look Neil Young, very smart,

00:28:53 ◼   ► what Neil Young did here I think.

00:28:54 ◼   ► Neil Young knew that this wasn't gonna make a difference,

00:28:57 ◼   ► but what Neil Young has gotten is exactly what's happened,

00:28:59 ◼   ► which is it was, it started a fire.

00:29:02 ◼   ► - Yep, that's it.

00:29:04 ◼   ► - And so, but the question now is,

00:29:06 ◼   ► will there be an artist big enough?

00:29:08 ◼   ► - Right.

00:29:09 ◼   ► - Like if Taylor Swift is like,

00:29:11 ◼   ► this is the one everyone uses, but like, you know.

00:29:13 ◼   ► - That's the ultimate leverage

00:29:14 ◼   ► that everybody has over Spotify,

00:29:15 ◼   ► which is Spotify's business is a music streaming business.

00:29:18 ◼   ► And if Spotify deciding we're gonna spend money

00:29:20 ◼   ► on exclusive content in podcasts,

00:29:23 ◼   ► is if their decisions there are so questionable

00:29:27 ◼   ► that they're harming their music business appreciably,

00:29:30 ◼   ► this becomes a much bigger problem.

00:29:32 ◼   ► And I wouldn't, you know,

00:29:34 ◼   ► I doubt there's gonna be much of a change here,

00:29:37 ◼   ► but there is a scenario where Spotify just decides,

00:29:41 ◼   ► you know what, we're not gonna fund.

00:29:45 ◼   ► This is similar to the argument about Substack,

00:29:47 ◼   ► where people are like really angry

00:29:48 ◼   ► about some of the content that's on Substack,

00:29:50 ◼   ► but what intensifies the argument

00:29:52 ◼   ► is that Substack chose some people

00:29:56 ◼   ► and gave them essentially funding

00:29:59 ◼   ► to launch their sub stacks.

00:30:01 ◼   ► - That's a different thing. - And it changes

00:30:02 ◼   ► the conversation 'cause then you're not a platform anymore.

00:30:05 ◼   ► Now you are funding the content.

00:30:07 ◼   ► You are a publisher of that.

00:30:09 ◼   ► You have more responsibility.

00:30:11 ◼   ► And so that would be my question for Spotify is,

00:30:15 ◼   ► yeah, at what point do you say

00:30:16 ◼   ► this whole exclusive podcast thing

00:30:21 ◼   ► turned out to be too much

00:30:23 ◼   ► and with too much potential harm to our music relationships.

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00:31:39 ◼   ► Capital One, what's in your wallet?

00:31:41 ◼   ► Got a couple of stories for our Rumor Roundup, Jason.

00:31:44 ◼   ► I snuck, this has become a new segment in my brain,

00:31:46 ◼   ► I think this is probably obvious to everyone at the moment.

00:31:49 ◼   ► I like doing Rumor Roundups, and we said before,

00:31:52 ◼   ► especially because Mark Gurman seems to always publish something over the weekend.

00:31:55 ◼   ► And I have a couple of Bloomberg stories for you today.

00:31:58 ◼   ► The first is that Bloomberg is reporting that Apple is working on the ability to allow for

00:32:03 ◼   ► iPhones to natively accept card payments via the built-in NFC reader, removing the need

00:32:08 ◼   ► for something like a Square reader.

00:32:11 ◼   ► It's unclear whether the payment accept-- this is a quote, sorry, I'm going to read

00:32:15 ◼   ► a quote from the article.

00:32:16 ◼   ► It's unclear whether the payment acceptance option will be branded as part of Apple Pay,

00:32:21 ◼   ► Though the team working on the feature has been working within Apple's payment division

00:32:25 ◼   ► since being brought over from a company called Mobywave, which was a credit card payments

00:32:30 ◼   ► company like for phone for this exact thing, Apple acquired in 2020 for around $100 million.

00:32:39 ◼   ► This is an interesting one to me, like, because my feeling is right.

00:32:44 ◼   ► This feels like a strategic play, not a technology play, which is why they bought this company

00:32:49 ◼   ► 'Cause I feel like Apple could have worked this out.

00:32:51 ◼   ► Like if it was just, if they were creating say an API,

00:32:55 ◼   ► which is like we're opening up the NFC reader,

00:32:57 ◼   ► then they can leave it for the other tech companies

00:32:59 ◼   ► to work out how to make that a thing

00:33:01 ◼   ► that they can charge from, right?

00:33:03 ◼   ► 'Cause NFC is a pretty known technology at this point.

00:33:06 ◼   ► - Yeah, although, I mean,

00:33:07 ◼   ► NFC is really locked down on the iPhone, right?

00:33:09 ◼   ► - I mean, what I'm saying is they could have,

00:33:12 ◼   ► if they were just gonna be like, oh, hey Square,

00:33:14 ◼   ► I know you wanna be able to do this about the reader,

00:33:17 ◼   ► we're just gonna let you do that.

00:33:18 ◼   ► - Yeah, no, this is strategically,

00:33:21 ◼   ► they're like they want it to all go through Apple Pay, right?

00:33:23 ◼   ► - Yep, and so my fear on this is like, if Apple does this,

00:33:28 ◼   ► the logic in my brain would be like,

00:33:30 ◼   ► this is just gonna be an Apple Pay thing

00:33:32 ◼   ► and third parties will not be able to use this technology.

00:33:36 ◼   ► - Yeah, I think that's a good question, right?

00:33:37 ◼   ► Like, will it be, that would be my guess, my guess.

00:33:41 ◼   ► And I wonder how much of this gets calibrated now

00:33:44 ◼   ► thinking of future regulation and court cases and things

00:33:47 ◼   ► for Apple because there are two ways that Apple could do this.

00:33:50 ◼   ► Apple could say, we are making this an API

00:33:53 ◼   ► for approved apps who want to accept payments.

00:33:56 ◼   ► Or they could say, all payments go through Apple Pay,

00:33:58 ◼   ► which is probably what they'll do

00:34:00 ◼   ► because this sounds like very much part of their financial,

00:34:03 ◼   ► building their financial empire

00:34:05 ◼   ► that they're trying to build and saying,

00:34:08 ◼   ► you no longer, the person down at the farmer's market

00:34:11 ◼   ► that is currently struggling with a square terminal,

00:34:14 ◼   ► now all they need to do is just hold out their iPhone

00:34:17 ◼   ► and you can tap and you can accept payment and it's done

00:34:21 ◼   ► and you don't have to do anything else.

00:34:23 ◼   ► So you could argue that they missed their chance

00:34:28 ◼   ► and that they should have done this.

00:34:29 ◼   ► I don't think they have the hardware to do it years ago

00:34:32 ◼   ► and that now more entities have built like little terminals

00:34:37 ◼   ► and stuff where you can tap and all of that.

00:34:39 ◼   ► And that's, you know, tapping on a payment terminal

00:34:41 ◼   ► is a better experience than some dude handing his phone,

00:34:46 ◼   ► holding his phone out to you and saying, "Tap here, man." So, I don't know. But I'm sure

00:34:52 ◼   ► Apple views this as being a way for them to kind of insinuate themselves into another

00:34:55 ◼   ► part of the financial picture.

00:34:58 ◼   ► My hope would be at least that they could offer it as some kind of technology that third

00:35:03 ◼   ► parties could integrate with. Like, Apple could still process the payment. They're still

00:35:06 ◼   ► going to make the money. But at the same time, then, I don't know if a company like Square,

00:35:11 ◼   ► I mean, they make money from processing the payments. So why would they give that to Apple?

00:35:15 ◼   ► This is just, do remind me, do iPads have NFC chips in them?

00:35:20 ◼   ► - No, so I have to wonder if this is going on,

00:35:23 ◼   ► if one of the other conversations

00:35:24 ◼   ► that's going on inside Apple is maybe we need

00:35:26 ◼   ► to start putting NFC chips in iPads,

00:35:31 ◼   ► so we can sell them as terminals.

00:35:33 ◼   ► 'Cause right now, I could see them saying cellular iPad,

00:35:38 ◼   ► NFC terminal built in, iPad Pro for your business,

00:35:42 ◼   ► you put it, right, there's a sales pitch there,

00:35:45 ◼   ► but they don't currently have NFC stuff in iPads.

00:35:48 ◼   ► Also Apple Pay Cash, I wanna point out that

00:35:51 ◼   ► when we talk about this,

00:35:52 ◼   ► and I know that you and I talk about this a lot,

00:35:54 ◼   ► like Apple's got all this financial services plans,

00:35:58 ◼   ► but like Apple Card and Apple Pay Cash

00:36:00 ◼   ► are like in the US, right?

00:36:03 ◼   ► - Yeah, I just saw there's a link from Matt in the chat.

00:36:07 ◼   ► Some might have NFC chips, anyway, that are unused.

00:36:11 ◼   ► - Oh yeah, apparently the iPad Air 2 has an NFC chip.

00:36:14 ◼   ► - That's hilarious, so that's from a long time ago.

00:36:17 ◼   ► So, but that was probably like they put it on the board

00:36:19 ◼   ► 'cause it was cheaper to put it on the board

00:36:20 ◼   ► with something else.

00:36:21 ◼   ► - If they have them, Apple doesn't talk about it.

00:36:23 ◼   ► But yeah, so there's a breakdown.

00:36:25 ◼   ► Apple Pay is worldwide, not everywhere,

00:36:28 ◼   ► but in many, many, many countries.

00:36:30 ◼   ► And this is the ability for you to use your phone

00:36:33 ◼   ► and your watch as a card.

00:36:35 ◼   ► But Apple Pay Cash, which is the,

00:36:37 ◼   ► I wanna send money to somebody else, that's US only.

00:36:40 ◼   ► And Apple Card is US only, 'cause they require other things.

00:36:44 ◼   ► I'm still really surprised that Apple Pay Cash has not left the US.

00:36:49 ◼   ► Me too.

00:36:50 ◼   ► Even if they just kept it as inter-country, like not international.

00:36:56 ◼   ► This seems like a strategic play.

00:36:58 ◼   ► For me to be able to send money in the UK, I mean what I'll say is, maybe the reason

00:37:04 ◼   ► is the UK's payment system is very advanced and very good and free.

00:37:11 ◼   ► I can send money to anyone in the UK using my banking app

00:37:15 ◼   ► and it's immediate.

00:37:16 ◼   ► We have a better system here.

00:37:19 ◼   ► Maybe, I don't know what your system's like there,

00:37:21 ◼   ► but everything I've ever done with an American bank

00:37:24 ◼   ► seems vastly more complicated.

00:37:25 ◼   ► - Oh yeah, no, our system, I had somebody,

00:37:28 ◼   ► when we were learning how to do payments

00:37:30 ◼   ► to people for our business that were direct payments,

00:37:35 ◼   ► we have to use a system called ACH for that.

00:37:38 ◼   ► And a bunch of other stuff like Zelle has been created,

00:37:41 ◼   ► which is like a bunch of the big banks

00:37:42 ◼   ► trying to create their own Venmo, and there's Venmo.

00:37:45 ◼   ► But ACH, I was told by somebody who actually has worked

00:37:49 ◼   ► at the place that does the ACH payments.

00:37:51 ◼   ► What this person said to me was,

00:37:54 ◼   ► your vision, my vision of it being like

00:37:58 ◼   ► a big windowless room with a bunch of people

00:38:00 ◼   ► dressed like their accountants from the 30s,

00:38:02 ◼   ► and they've all got adding machines

00:38:04 ◼   ► and little green eye shades.

00:38:05 ◼   ► This person was like, you're really not that far off.

00:38:08 ◼   ► It is an incredibly outmoded system that for whatever reason has not changed.

00:38:14 ◼   ► And that's the US.

00:38:15 ◼   ► So yeah, the US banking system is so slow to change.

00:38:21 ◼   ► And yet Apple is doing these things in the US, which I find that fascinating because

00:38:26 ◼   ► there are other countries where you think it would be easier to deploy this stuff.

00:38:29 ◼   ► Then again, those countries also probably have more advanced alternatives.

00:38:32 ◼   ► So there's less of an opportunity there.

00:38:34 ◼   ► But still, wouldn't you think that when Tim Cook goes on Financial Call and boasts about

00:38:39 ◼   ► Apple Card and Apple Pay Cash, that he would really like to be able to boast about how

00:38:44 ◼   ► they're in other countries and they're not.

00:38:46 ◼   ► Yeah, Apple Card is the biggest surprise to me than Apple Pay Cash.

00:38:51 ◼   ► Are there credit cards in other countries?

00:38:54 ◼   ► I think there are.

00:38:55 ◼   ► There are.

00:38:56 ◼   ► And, you know, I just for that one, it's like it seems like much more of a longer term strategic

00:39:01 ◼   ► move and they could find credit card companies in most countries around the world that would

00:39:07 ◼   ► be willing to partner with them on that. But they have yet to do it. So this is an interesting

00:39:12 ◼   ► one to me. Honestly, this feels to me like they could do this anywhere that Apple Pay

00:39:18 ◼   ► is accepted because that's all this is. It's just a credit card or debit card transaction

00:39:24 ◼   ► via NFC.

00:39:25 ◼   ► I'm not entirely sure because you need to be able to accept it, which is why I was thinking

00:39:31 ◼   ► gut feeling is that the way this will work is that it'll take the money and put it in

00:39:34 ◼   ► your Apple Pay cash. So it'll only work in the US because it'll work with Apple Pay cash.

00:39:38 ◼   ► Because you got to take--

00:39:39 ◼   ► >>JAY: Oh right, because they're not going to want to do the work of having people sign

00:39:42 ◼   ► up--

00:39:43 ◼   ► >>DAVID: Right, and you can't do like a reverse-- a reverse Apple Pay where it charges on one

00:39:47 ◼   ► card and debits to the other card. Instead you have to have a like a linked account and

00:39:52 ◼   ► that-- that is the Apple Pay cash infrastructure.

00:39:54 ◼   ► >>JAY Good point. Good point.

00:39:55 ◼   ► >>DAVID Maybe if they do this, that might finally be an impetus for them to roll out

00:39:59 ◼   ► Apple Pay Cash elsewhere. Yes. But that's my guess is that it'll be like you can

00:40:04 ◼   ► take a payment for your bread at the at the farmers market and you just ended up

00:40:08 ◼   ► with Apple Pay Cash on your phone and then at the end of the day you can

00:40:11 ◼   ► transfer that back to your bank account. That's my guess about how they're going

00:40:15 ◼   ► to implement this. If they do this the interesting part is nothing new is

00:40:21 ◼   ► needed like every device that has an NFC chip in it a software update would turn

00:40:27 ◼   ► this feature on. NFC is a very simple technology that does a lot of complicated things. I remember

00:40:34 ◼   ► when I was first thinking about when the Apple Watch and the iPhone got NFC, got Apple Pay,

00:40:42 ◼   ► I was thinking, "How's it going to work on the tube? I'm underground and I don't have

00:40:45 ◼   ► any reception." And I was like, "Well, neither does my debit card. My debit card has no reception."

00:40:52 ◼   ► As we know from Apple explaining it to us all these years ago, it's basically just creating

00:40:56 ◼   ► a fake card. That's all it's doing. It's just like changing the numbers and giving it a

00:41:00 ◼   ► weird number.

00:41:01 ◼   ► Yeah. Well, Lauren was asking me about this because she took her—she didn't have her

00:41:04 ◼   ► phone with her and she was at Whole Foods. She was like, "Can I pay my Apple watches

00:41:08 ◼   ► in cellular?" she said. "So can I use Apple Pay?" And I'm like, "Yeah, because it doesn't—it's

00:41:12 ◼   ► just a credit card." It knows what the credit card is. It's stored on the device. It isn't

00:41:16 ◼   ► calling home to the internet to do anything. It's literally just providing the digits to

00:41:22 ◼   ► the receiver.

00:41:23 ◼   ► Mark Gorman has also given some details on the larger iMac that we've been pontificating

00:41:30 ◼   ► over.

00:41:31 ◼   ► So Mark is saying it will be the iMac Pro, it will feature an M1 Pro and/or M1 Max processors

00:41:39 ◼   ► as an option with a similar design language to the 24-inch iMac.

00:41:44 ◼   ► Yeah, yeah.

00:41:46 ◼   ► I think it is going to be what we thought it was, right?

00:41:51 ◼   ► I don't think there are gonna be some surprises maybe like is it gonna have a

00:41:54 ◼   ► better webcam is gonna face ID or something like that or is it really

00:41:58 ◼   ► gonna be my guess would be it's gonna be straight up just a big 24-inch iMac

00:42:03 ◼   ► same look no colors probably or bad colors. What size do you reckon it will be the

00:42:09 ◼   ► screen? I think it's 27. 27? I don't think they're gonna make it 30 or whatever I

00:42:15 ◼   ► think that that's too big for most people. So it would be physically smaller

00:42:19 ◼   ► larger screen than the one it replaces, right? Because the 24 is, like, physically

00:42:23 ◼   ► similar size, larger screen. Yeah, that's my guess, and then it'll come in, like,

00:42:28 ◼   ► space gray and maybe silver and then, you know, again, it's the usual, you know,

00:42:34 ◼   ► midnight green and, yeah, twilight yellow, I don't know, like, again, boring things

00:42:42 ◼   ► that are very boring, I think, and not bright and fun, but that are pro. And the

00:42:47 ◼   ► black bezels, right?

00:42:49 ◼   ► Black bezels, not the light gray bezels,

00:42:51 ◼   ► but the black bezels.

00:42:52 ◼   ► It's what we predicted,

00:42:54 ◼   ► and then it'll have the processors in there.

00:42:56 ◼   ► And what I find interesting is Mark Gurman

00:42:58 ◼   ► is like really cagey about like what Mac

00:43:01 ◼   ► might ship in the spring event.

00:43:02 ◼   ► He's like something, and he talks about this product,

00:43:05 ◼   ► but it's still like, "When's it gonna ship?"

00:43:07 ◼   ► And I'm gonna hold that hope that it's a spring event thing,

00:43:09 ◼   ► and they're gonna actually ship it in the spring event

00:43:11 ◼   ► 'cause they wanna get it out there.

00:43:12 ◼   ► But Mark Gurman doesn't seem to know.

00:43:13 ◼   ► - He doesn't know.

00:43:14 ◼   ► He seems to not know this one, so I don't know.

00:43:17 ◼   ► But bring it on, I'm gonna, almost certainly I will buy this, right?

00:43:21 ◼   ► Almost certainly this will be my new Mac.

00:43:24 ◼   ► Even though I, you know, the idea of an external display and something like that is tempting,

00:43:28 ◼   ► I think it will probably just be this.

00:43:30 ◼   ► I've been very happy with my 27-inch iMac lifestyle that I started back when the 5K

00:43:35 ◼   ► iMac came out.

00:43:36 ◼   ► I'm pretty happy with it.

00:43:37 ◼   ► I think I'll just continue that.

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00:45:11 ◼   ► and Relay FM.

00:45:12 ◼   ► So there are some new betas that came out

00:45:15 ◼   ► tail end of last week.

00:45:17 ◼   ► - Big beta time.

00:45:18 ◼   ► - That were a bit chunky, I think.

00:45:21 ◼   ► So we've got iOS 15.4 and Mac OS 12.3.

00:45:24 ◼   ► I'm not 100% sure how that happened, but it did.

00:45:28 ◼   ► - They rushed out a iOS update, a 15.1 update

00:45:32 ◼   ► while Mac OS was still kind of spinning.

00:45:35 ◼   ► So they got offset.

00:45:36 ◼   ► Ah, yeah.

00:45:37 ◼   ► Cause it took a while, didn't it, to come out.

00:45:39 ◼   ► Yeah.

00:45:39 ◼   ► I forgot about that.

00:45:40 ◼   ► Probably the biggest thing, the most attention grabbing thing is, cause it's

00:45:44 ◼   ► a new thing and an expected thing is face ID while wearing a mask.

00:45:49 ◼   ► No Apple watch required.

00:45:52 ◼   ► So this uses quote unique features around the eyes as the way to

00:45:58 ◼   ► authenticate you so you can be wearing your mask and you set this up as a

00:46:02 ◼   ► separate process like you go in and redo face ID again because you have to make

00:46:06 ◼   ► the choice I would assume is safe to assume this is less secure and I mean

00:46:12 ◼   ► Apple say it's less accurate but like it's got to be less secure right then

00:46:17 ◼   ► without think so right because you got the full face or half the face I'm

00:46:22 ◼   ► wondering which of these is better from a security perspective out of this or

00:46:28 ◼   ► the watch unlock. What do you think?

00:46:30 ◼   ► - Well, watch unlock is probably better because it's a pure, you know, password. You've got

00:46:37 ◼   ► your watch on your wrist and as long as it stays on your wrist and you've entered the

00:46:41 ◼   ► passwords, it knows that it's you because it's still on your wrist. So I would probably

00:46:45 ◼   ► call that higher security. I also would think that Apple wouldn't do this if they weren't

00:46:50 ◼   ► fairly confident in the level of security of this thing.

00:46:55 ◼   ► Yeah, I wonder. Sure. What I wonder about is like where does touch ID sit?

00:47:03 ◼   ► So like if you've got like if you imagine we've got four things here we've

00:47:08 ◼   ► got face ID, face ID with watch, face ID of a mask, and touch ID. What is the

00:47:13 ◼   ► security spread across these four things? I would think that touch ID would

00:47:23 ◼   ► probably be the highest security? That's my guess.

00:47:27 ◼   ► I thought they said face ID was more secure than touch ID.

00:47:29 ◼   ► More secure than touch ID. I believe they did. I believe they did. I

00:47:32 ◼   ► think they said that face ID was more secure. It's less likely to misidentify somebody as

00:47:36 ◼   ► you than somebody's fingerprint is you. I'm just going on what I remember. I might

00:47:42 ◼   ► not be accurate about that. Yeah, the watch unlock, I mean, the beauty

00:47:45 ◼   ► of the watch unlock is it's biometric based on your knowledge of your own passwords. So

00:47:51 ◼   ► That's pretty powerful.

00:47:52 ◼   ► But beyond that, then you're just back to biometrics and saying, "This is the person

00:47:56 ◼   ► that I recognize."

00:47:57 ◼   ► Yeah.

00:47:58 ◼   ► Yeah.

00:47:59 ◼   ► And the truth is Face ID, the whole idea is convenience, and now they've got Face ID in

00:48:04 ◼   ► all these phones.

00:48:05 ◼   ► So they need to do—even if Apple spent the last two years trying to get back to Touch

00:48:09 ◼   ► ID, they need to do something like this because there are so many Face ID phones out there.

00:48:17 ◼   ► And even though it's coming now at this point,

00:48:19 ◼   ► I think it's reasonable to accept

00:48:21 ◼   ► that there are gonna be lots of situations

00:48:23 ◼   ► where people are masked

00:48:25 ◼   ► or have a scarf around their mouth or something.

00:48:30 ◼   ► I don't know.

00:48:31 ◼   ► - Which has always been a thing.

00:48:32 ◼   ► Masking has always been a thing,

00:48:34 ◼   ► an issue with Face ID around the world

00:48:37 ◼   ► prior to the pandemic.

00:48:38 ◼   ► I remember the first time I read face masks

00:48:42 ◼   ► and my initial thought was the things that you wear

00:48:45 ◼   ► a spa, like a beauty face mask.

00:48:48 ◼   ► And I was like, I don't understand

00:48:49 ◼   ► why are we talking about this?

00:48:51 ◼   ► And then it took me a while to realize, oh no,

00:48:53 ◼   ► because there are countries in the world

00:48:55 ◼   ► where they wear face masks, like when they're sick.

00:48:58 ◼   ► This was like a very long time ago.

00:48:59 ◼   ► By the way, Zach is letting us know

00:49:01 ◼   ► in the Real AFM members Discord,

00:49:04 ◼   ► by Apple touch ID is claimed to be one in 10,000,

00:49:07 ◼   ► face ID one in a million.

00:49:09 ◼   ► - Well, that's pretty, pretty good.

00:49:10 ◼   ► So assuming that this new face ID is,

00:49:13 ◼   ► if it's less, it's probably still better than Touch ID.

00:49:16 ◼   ► - But then my thing about the watch unlock is

00:49:20 ◼   ► I expect there is a massive variance of security

00:49:22 ◼   ► depending on what kind of passcode you have.

00:49:25 ◼   ► 'Cause you can have a four digit passcode

00:49:27 ◼   ► on an Apple Watch, right?

00:49:28 ◼   ► - Sure, although I think you have to have entered

00:49:30 ◼   ► the passcode on the watch and on the phone

00:49:32 ◼   ► in order to enable the biometrics.

00:49:36 ◼   ► - But yeah, there is an interesting kind of scale.

00:49:38 ◼   ► It's just funny, I think, to consider the path

00:49:40 ◼   ► that Face ID has been on when you look back at Touch ID.

00:49:43 ◼   ► I mean, look, there is a,

00:49:45 ◼   ► the pandemic has kind of upended all of this, right?

00:49:48 ◼   ► Like I don't think that either the watch unlock

00:49:50 ◼   ► or like the watch unlock feature

00:49:51 ◼   ► would never have been introduced, in my opinion.

00:49:53 ◼   ► - No, and it was obviously a rush attempt

00:49:56 ◼   ► to get that out there while they worked on this

00:49:58 ◼   ► in the background, which is something that's,

00:50:00 ◼   ► this is literally the feature that we were talking about

00:50:03 ◼   ► during the pandemic.

00:50:05 ◼   ► Like the beginning, early days of the pandemic was-

00:50:08 ◼   ► - Can you do this instead?

00:50:10 ◼   ► can you do face ID with a mask on

00:50:12 ◼   ► based on the parts of your face you can see?

00:50:15 ◼   ► And the answer is, yeah, give us two years

00:50:16 ◼   ► and we'll get right back to you.

00:50:17 ◼   ► - I'm not surprised though, honestly,

00:50:19 ◼   ► like you gotta do the security work on this

00:50:22 ◼   ► and really be comfortable that what you're,

00:50:25 ◼   ► 'cause you've got base,

00:50:26 ◼   ► I would expect that to make sure this worked,

00:50:29 ◼   ► they had to go back to like the very beginning of testing

00:50:32 ◼   ► for like they did with face ID.

00:50:34 ◼   ► - For sure.

00:50:35 ◼   ► - Right?

00:50:35 ◼   ► And so it's gonna take a really long time.

00:50:38 ◼   ► And honestly, I say like hats off to them

00:50:40 ◼   ► for the interim solution of the watch unlock.

00:50:43 ◼   ► Like I think they obviously knew

00:50:45 ◼   ► that this is something that they wanted to do

00:50:47 ◼   ► and like, all right, but that's gonna take us too long.

00:50:49 ◼   ► What can we do in the meantime?

00:50:51 ◼   ► Oh, we can do this.

00:50:53 ◼   ► So there is a little bit more to this.

00:50:54 ◼   ► So also they have introduced the ability

00:50:57 ◼   ► to do a face ID scan wearing glasses

00:51:01 ◼   ► to improve scanning for if you wear glasses.

00:51:03 ◼   ► And they recommend doing multiple scans

00:51:06 ◼   ► if you wear multiple pairs of glasses.

00:51:09 ◼   ► This is also better for sunglasses.

00:51:10 ◼   ► However, the face ID while wearing a mask feature

00:51:14 ◼   ► specifically will not work at all if you wear sunglasses

00:51:18 ◼   ► 'cause it cannot look at your eyes, right?

00:51:20 ◼   ► It needs to see your eyes,

00:51:22 ◼   ► which is not something face ID required

00:51:25 ◼   ► 'cause it had your entire face, right?

00:51:27 ◼   ► So when I was reading this, I was hearing about this,

00:51:30 ◼   ► I was like, "Eh, I'm not gonna enable this."

00:51:32 ◼   ► I wear an Apple Watch every day.

00:51:34 ◼   ► If it was the only reason I was wearing an Apple Watch,

00:51:36 ◼   ► it was one of the main reasons

00:51:38 ◼   ► when I started wearing an Apple Watch again,

00:51:40 ◼   ► then I would maybe consider it,

00:51:41 ◼   ► but now I wear an Apple Watch for a bunch of things,

00:51:44 ◼   ► as I'm back in kind of that life.

00:51:46 ◼   ► So I was like, no, I'm fine with the Apple authentication,

00:51:49 ◼   ► so I'm just gonna stick with it

00:51:50 ◼   ► and keep what I expect as a higher level of security.

00:51:54 ◼   ► But then I read this following quote from MacRumors

00:51:57 ◼   ► and it changed everything in my brain.

00:51:59 ◼   ► Unlike the Apple Watch Face ID feature,

00:52:01 ◼   ► Face ID of a mask is fully identical to standard face ID in terms of what can be authenticated.

00:52:07 ◼   ► You can use face ID with a mask for Apple Pay purchases and in lieu of a passcode in third party

00:52:13 ◼   ► apps. So if you do the watch thing, you still have to put a passcode in for Apple Pay and any app that

00:52:20 ◼   ► uses authentication. So that would suggest to me, Jason, that Apple believe face ID of a mask,

00:52:28 ◼   ► I expect is more secure than the watch version because otherwise why would they let you do this?

00:52:33 ◼   ► Yeah I do wonder about it. Yeah so this is exactly what happens to me when I'm in in the store or

00:52:39 ◼   ► somewhere because that's generally right that the only time I'm ever inside wearing a mask is

00:52:43 ◼   ► is in stores. That's in Bay Area has a mask mandate we wear masks inside. So I'm in the store

00:52:48 ◼   ► and I need to look something on on 1Password. Guess what? I need to put in my password because it won't

00:52:55 ◼   ► to watch unlock or I'm paying something at the register and occasionally my Apple Watch

00:53:01 ◼   ► will be like, "I can't do Apple Pay right now." And I don't know why it does that, but

00:53:05 ◼   ► occasionally it does that. It's like, "Ah, I don't know." And I'm like, "Okay, well,

00:53:09 ◼   ► I guess I'll use my phone." And then I go to my phone and it says, "Please put your

00:53:12 ◼   ► password down." Oh, gosh. So this is great.

00:53:14 ◼   ► - I just habitually use my phone for Apple Pay and never think to use my watch. I think

00:53:21 ◼   ► I wore that habit out in the time

00:53:24 ◼   ► that I wasn't wearing an Apple Watch

00:53:26 ◼   ► and it's just never come back to me.

00:53:28 ◼   ► - Right, yeah, that's true.

00:53:29 ◼   ► Even if you have Apple Watch authentication,

00:53:31 ◼   ► this is a superior method of authenticating

00:53:34 ◼   ► because it unlocks everything that Face ID does

00:53:38 ◼   ► and the Apple Watch authentication does not do that.

00:53:41 ◼   ► So it's a big deal.

00:53:43 ◼   ► I think people are gonna be really excited about this

00:53:45 ◼   ► when it comes out.

00:53:46 ◼   ► Keep in mind, it's just developer beta.

00:53:47 ◼   ► They'll probably do a public beta this week or next week

00:53:50 ◼   ► and then it'll be like a month or two before everybody else gets it. But it's great. I

00:53:57 ◼   ► am surprised that this exists and I'm very happy that this exists. And in the long run,

00:54:02 ◼   ► like I said, in the long run, we are probably, certainly in many countries-

00:54:07 ◼   ► Oh, the public beta's out now, Jason.

00:54:09 ◼   ► Public beta's out. Okay. So in the long run, there are lots of places that have masking

00:54:13 ◼   ► culture and there are probably more now than there were before the pandemic. And I fully

00:54:20 ◼   ► expect that there will also be periods where something will be going around and they'll

00:54:24 ◼   ► say, "Okay, everybody should wear masks inside now." And again, there are also other uses

00:54:29 ◼   ► in terms of people covering up parts of their face because of the weather and stuff like

00:54:32 ◼   ► that. Like, this is great. It's like a face ID for your eyes and you're probably not,

00:54:38 ◼   ► you know, going outside, like, completely covered.

00:54:43 ◼   ► If you're Spider-Man, face ID will not work.

00:54:46 ◼   ► Sorry, Spider-Man.

00:54:47 ◼   ► -Well, unless -- I think there is a version of the suit

00:54:50 ◼   ► where he does show his eyes, so, like, maybe, you know,

00:54:53 ◼   ► like, maybe that would work.

00:54:54 ◼   ► Like, he could just retract them.

00:54:56 ◼   ► -But generally, it's a whole face thing.

00:54:58 ◼   ► He's gonna have to do touch ID, and, you know,

00:55:00 ◼   ► touch ID is hard for him.

00:55:01 ◼   ► -Oh, I don't know, 'cause he wears gloves, too,

00:55:03 ◼   ► and he will just -- Yeah, he'll stick to it.

00:55:05 ◼   ► -He does, but somehow his stickiness

00:55:06 ◼   ► goes through the glove. So maybe his, I don't know. Anyways, don't be, if you're Spider-Man

00:55:11 ◼   ► and you need to unlock your phone, you're going to have to swing to the top of a tall

00:55:13 ◼   ► building and take your mask off.

00:55:15 ◼   ► The whole way, not just that halfway that he does sometimes, because it's still not

00:55:18 ◼   ► the right part of the face.

00:55:19 ◼   ► It's the right, yeah, that's right. It's not mouth ID.

00:55:23 ◼   ► They've also in 15.4 added the ability to add a note to a iCloud keychain entry. So

00:55:29 ◼   ► you can go into passwords. It's passwords, isn't it, on the iPhone and iPad. You could,

00:55:36 ◼   ► now like the ability to add a note field in there.

00:55:40 ◼   ► Getting closer and closer to that full password manager.

00:55:43 ◼   ► - Yeah, I'm starting to think that one of our iOS 16

00:55:47 ◼   ► predictions should be that passwords will be an app

00:55:51 ◼   ► because it's so fully functional

00:55:55 ◼   ► and yet it's in the settings app.

00:55:57 ◼   ► And I wonder if they might actually break it out

00:55:59 ◼   ► even if it's literally the same functionality

00:56:01 ◼   ► into a password app just so that there's something

00:56:04 ◼   ► on your home screen that says passwords.

00:56:06 ◼   ► - I do think we are getting closer.

00:56:08 ◼   ► I mean, we're always getting closer to that eventuality.

00:56:10 ◼   ► I think it's speeding up.

00:56:11 ◼   ► Because I think the impression I get

00:56:14 ◼   ► from conversations with and also seeing the output

00:56:18 ◼   ► of people that work on passwords and security at Apple,

00:56:22 ◼   ► they are very passionate about this as a project

00:56:26 ◼   ► and have done just some truly incredible things

00:56:30 ◼   ► like the way it pulls in the authenticated text messages

00:56:34 ◼   ► and stuff like that.

00:56:35 ◼   ► really truly like just like life-changing things in software.

00:56:39 ◼   ► - Yeah, you see Ricky Mondello on Twitter,

00:56:41 ◼   ► they talk about this a lot.

00:56:42 ◼   ► And the idea that they are working very hard to integrate

00:56:47 ◼   ► sort of like the messages come in

00:56:49 ◼   ► and then they auto-fill in Safari and like all of that stuff.

00:56:52 ◼   ► Yeah, they are very proud of it.

00:56:53 ◼   ► But also I think that there came a point where

00:56:56 ◼   ► they realized that this was a platform feature

00:56:59 ◼   ► that like Apple security of users

00:57:03 ◼   ► should not be left to third parties, right?

00:57:06 ◼   ► It is that moment.

00:57:07 ◼   ► You could say, yeah, they're eating OnePassword's lunch

00:57:09 ◼   ► and all the rest, but the truth is--

00:57:11 ◼   ► - Well, they're not even nearly doing it yet.

00:57:13 ◼   ► - But I think they're right.

00:57:14 ◼   ► I think you have to do this in the operating system.

00:57:19 ◼   ► This is not an optional thing.

00:57:21 ◼   ► People have passwords.

00:57:22 ◼   ► Just to say, hey, passwords, it's your problem.

00:57:24 ◼   ► It's not my problem, it's your problem.

00:57:25 ◼   ► I don't think you can do that.

00:57:26 ◼   ► So they have to do it.

00:57:27 ◼   ► I'm glad they are doing it.

00:57:28 ◼   ► This is also why companies like OnePassword

00:57:31 ◼   ► that have their own password manager are pivoting

00:57:33 ◼   ► to be enterprise solutions, right?

00:57:37 ◼   ► It's because just serving regular users,

00:57:39 ◼   ► and I know people are angry who are regular users

00:57:41 ◼   ► of 1Password, they're like, why aren't they listening to me?

00:57:43 ◼   ► The answer is because they see the writing on the wall,

00:57:45 ◼   ► which is the way you use 1Password when you started using it,

00:57:49 ◼   ► that's gonna be an operating system feature.

00:57:50 ◼   ► And it may not be exactly what you want,

00:57:52 ◼   ► but it's gonna be the base operating system feature,

00:57:54 ◼   ► and it's going to prevent them from having a rich market

00:58:00 ◼   ► for people who want this because what Apple provides

00:58:04 ◼   ► will be good enough.

00:58:04 ◼   ► And so they got to pivot to something that like businesses

00:58:07 ◼   ► care about for their business information.

00:58:08 ◼   ► And the good news is what Apple's doing in this area

00:58:11 ◼   ► is really quite good because it would be different

00:58:15 ◼   ► if Apple was scaring everybody off

00:58:16 ◼   ► and that what they were providing was bad.

00:58:18 ◼   ► But it's actually quite good

00:58:20 ◼   ► and I'm very impressed with it.

00:58:21 ◼   ► - I wonder if, I wonder with 1Password,

00:58:24 ◼   ► like how much has Apple got to do

00:58:27 ◼   ► to start eating into these things?

00:58:28 ◼   ► 'cause like one of the big things is they don't do,

00:58:31 ◼   ► there's no like sharing, there's no like group stuff,

00:58:33 ◼   ► there's none of that.

00:58:34 ◼   ► And if that's the thing that you care about, which I do,

00:58:36 ◼   ► I mean, you're kind of, you're stuck with a bigger solution.

00:58:39 ◼   ► - Certainly iCloud family sharing of password information

00:58:43 ◼   ► is a frontier for them, right?

00:58:46 ◼   ► I would imagine that they might get there down the road,

00:58:49 ◼   ► but you're right.

00:58:50 ◼   ► If you've got, and Lauren and I have a shared thing

00:58:54 ◼   ► that for 1Password stuff.

00:58:55 ◼   ► So that would be a thing that if we dropped one password,

00:58:58 ◼   ► we would need to figure out another way to do that.

00:59:01 ◼   ► But anyway, it is like in true Apple style,

00:59:06 ◼   ► I feel like they are going to cover most of the bases here.

00:59:09 ◼   ► They're gonna get most of the needs of people

00:59:12 ◼   ► and it's getting better all the time.

00:59:14 ◼   ► - Federico Vatici, friend of the show,

00:59:16 ◼   ► found that you can run shortcuts automations

00:59:19 ◼   ► without getting notifications anymore.

00:59:21 ◼   ► So if you have some kind of automation that happens

00:59:23 ◼   ► for timed or some kind of action triggers a shortcut,

00:59:27 ◼   ► you would get a notification for it.

00:59:28 ◼   ► They don't appear anymore.

00:59:30 ◼   ► I'm pleased about this.

00:59:31 ◼   ► I have a focus mode that when it detects exercise activity,

00:59:34 ◼   ► it sets a focus mode for me.

00:59:36 ◼   ► And then I get two notifications from the shortcuts app.

00:59:41 ◼   ► We won't get those pop up anymore.

00:59:43 ◼   ► They still show in notification center.

00:59:45 ◼   ► So there's like a summary of all the things

00:59:48 ◼   ► that have happened, but they don't like pop up

00:59:50 ◼   ► and get in your way anymore.

00:59:53 ◼   ► As it stands right now, you will still get them

00:59:56 ◼   ► when launching from the home screen.

00:59:59 ◼   ► So you put like, make your own like home screen thing

01:00:01 ◼   ► and you press it and you get like, hey, opening this app.

01:00:03 ◼   ► I expect they'll probably change that.

01:00:05 ◼   ► I'd be surprised if 15.4 came out with that still

01:00:07 ◼   ► as the thing, because they've done the other part of it.

01:00:11 ◼   ► And I saw on MacRumors that third party apps

01:00:14 ◼   ► will now be able to take full advantage

01:00:16 ◼   ► of the 120 Hertz promotion.

01:00:18 ◼   ► There was a, we spoke about this at the time,

01:00:20 ◼   ► but there was a bug in core animation

01:00:22 ◼   ► where some animations were locked to 60 hertz.

01:00:26 ◼   ► This has now been fixed

01:00:27 ◼   ► and developers don't have to do anything.

01:00:29 ◼   ► So it will now just do this automatically.

01:00:31 ◼   ► So some scrolling stuff was being kind of constrained

01:00:35 ◼   ► and that won't be the case for 15.4.

01:00:37 ◼   ► Mac OS 12.3 has universal control.

01:00:43 ◼   ► - Yeah, it does. - Are you surprised

01:00:45 ◼   ► about this?

01:00:46 ◼   ► - No.

01:00:47 ◼   ► - Okay, 'cause I was wondering, honestly,

01:00:50 ◼   ► I thought it might come back around again in 16 and 13.

01:00:53 ◼   ► - No, I assumed that this was gonna be,

01:00:57 ◼   ► they promised it for the spring.

01:00:58 ◼   ► They promised it for the spring.

01:00:59 ◼   ► - Oh yeah, I forgot that.

01:01:00 ◼   ► I forgot that, yeah.

01:01:01 ◼   ► - Yeah, and so this is the logical place for it.

01:01:04 ◼   ► I think we were all, I mean, originally 12.2 turned out

01:01:07 ◼   ► to be a, and 12.2 and 15.3 turned out to be like a,

01:01:12 ◼   ► they wanted to get a bunch of stuff out,

01:01:15 ◼   ► like bug fixes and all that,

01:01:16 ◼   ► and saved their new features for this round.

01:01:19 ◼   ► This is the mid year feature update.

01:01:23 ◼   ► So they seem to have held a bunch of this stuff

01:01:27 ◼   ► for this set of releases.

01:01:30 ◼   ► And so, yeah, so here's universal control.

01:01:33 ◼   ► And I wanted to test universal control.

01:01:36 ◼   ► So I installed the betas on my Mac and on my iPad,

01:01:40 ◼   ► just so I could test universal control.

01:01:43 ◼   ► And it is real and it works and it's a beta.

01:01:47 ◼   ► and it lost my keyboard at one point.

01:01:49 ◼   ► And I was like, okay,

01:01:50 ◼   ► I guess I can't use the keyboard over there anymore,

01:01:52 ◼   ► but it's a beta.

01:01:54 ◼   ► But it is,

01:01:55 ◼   ► it works as advertised,

01:01:59 ◼   ► until it doesn't 'cause it's a beta,

01:02:00 ◼   ► but I'm very impressed with it.

01:02:02 ◼   ► I'm sure, you know, ergonomically,

01:02:03 ◼   ► I'm not sure it's the best fit for me.

01:02:05 ◼   ► Although that said,

01:02:06 ◼   ► being able to prop up my iPad

01:02:08 ◼   ► and being able to mouse over to it

01:02:10 ◼   ► instead of reaching over and tapping on it

01:02:12 ◼   ► when I wanna have the iPad open to something is nice.

01:02:15 ◼   ► And there definitely, if I was traveling

01:02:17 ◼   ► and I had my laptop on my iPad, it would be great

01:02:20 ◼   ► 'cause I would have like a little control system

01:02:22 ◼   ► and I wouldn't have to have two keyboards

01:02:24 ◼   ► and two track pads and move my hands around.

01:02:27 ◼   ► I'm impressed by it.

01:02:29 ◼   ► The thing though, using it, that impressed me the most.

01:02:33 ◼   ► I mean, the setup is nice.

01:02:34 ◼   ► The displays control panel that lets you arrange

01:02:37 ◼   ► the height and stuff,

01:02:38 ◼   ► just like you would for an external monitor,

01:02:40 ◼   ► but it's for this keyboard and pointing device sharing.

01:02:44 ◼   ► That's really nice.

01:02:45 ◼   ► My favorite thing is that in doing it, I thought,

01:02:49 ◼   ► oh, see, this is the feature that is enabled

01:02:53 ◼   ► by the fact that they put the pointer support in a year ago.

01:02:57 ◼   ► And since I have a Magic Trackpad on my Mac,

01:03:02 ◼   ► I move it over to the iPad,

01:03:05 ◼   ► and it's completely familiar

01:03:10 ◼   ► because it's what using an iPad with the magic keyboard

01:03:14 ◼   ► with trackpad is like.

01:03:16 ◼   ► It's exactly the same, all the gestures, everything.

01:03:19 ◼   ► And so it's super familiar.

01:03:21 ◼   ► And I know for some people who've not used the iPad

01:03:23 ◼   ► with a pointing device, it'll be weird.

01:03:25 ◼   ► It'll be like, whoa, now my trackpad is over on my iPad.

01:03:28 ◼   ► But we've had a year now where iPad users

01:03:32 ◼   ► and app developers and Apple have had this keyboard

01:03:36 ◼   ► and trackpad mode available.

01:03:39 ◼   ► In fact, part of me wonders,

01:03:41 ◼   ► was universal control invented for the pointer?

01:03:45 ◼   ► Was the pointer invented for universal control?

01:03:48 ◼   ► I don't know, but they obviously have a plan here.

01:03:52 ◼   ► And the pointing stuff from a year ago

01:03:54 ◼   ► feeds directly into this.

01:03:58 ◼   ► I guess it was two years ago now.

01:04:00 ◼   ► Two years ago.

01:04:01 ◼   ► Yeah, it was like,

01:04:02 ◼   ► that was a bright spot at the beginning of the pandemic.

01:04:06 ◼   ► It was like, it's this interesting thing

01:04:07 ◼   ► to talk about and look at.

01:04:09 ◼   ► And it really does just feel that natural.

01:04:10 ◼   ► It is not any different than attaching a track pad

01:04:15 ◼   ► to your iPad to have it be via universal control.

01:04:18 ◼   ► It just happens.

01:04:19 ◼   ► And I know one of my criticisms of Sidecar at the time,

01:04:23 ◼   ► when Sidecar came out as part of Mac OS,

01:04:26 ◼   ► was I love my iPad because it has iPad apps on it,

01:04:31 ◼   ► and it's running them on the device,

01:04:34 ◼   ► as opposed to, you know, oh, I could run Slack.

01:04:37 ◼   ► I move Slack over in Sidecar and put it on my iPad.

01:04:40 ◼   ► Or I could just run Slack on my iPad, right?

01:04:43 ◼   ► And the only reason you would use it as an external monitor

01:04:47 ◼   ► for something that you could run on your iPad

01:04:49 ◼   ► is so that you wouldn't have to take your hands

01:04:51 ◼   ► off your keyboard and your mouse.

01:04:52 ◼   ► Well, this is way better

01:04:53 ◼   ► because you're literally running those apps natively

01:04:57 ◼   ► on the iPad.

01:04:59 ◼   ► You're just controlling them

01:05:00 ◼   ► from your Mac keyboard and mouse.

01:05:01 ◼   ► It's really good.

01:05:03 ◼   ► And it's not gonna be for everybody.

01:05:05 ◼   ► There's very certain circumstances

01:05:06 ◼   ► where it's gonna make sense, but I'm really impressed

01:05:10 ◼   ► with it, even though it is a beta and it's got some bugs,

01:05:12 ◼   ► but I'm very impressed with it.

01:05:13 ◼   ► It's strange, but I think it's good.

01:05:15 ◼   ► - So it still does that automatic,

01:05:17 ◼   ► like it's all on, right, by default,

01:05:18 ◼   ► and it does that thing where like you just push off

01:05:21 ◼   ► the screen and that kind of, it's trick,

01:05:23 ◼   ► it's like a reverse kind of thing where you're telling

01:05:26 ◼   ► the computer basically where the device is,

01:05:28 ◼   ► but just biologically where would you go?

01:05:30 ◼   ► Like for example, if you did the opposite side

01:05:33 ◼   ► of the screen, initially it would work,

01:05:36 ◼   ► but wouldn't make any logical sense.

01:05:37 ◼   ► So they're kind of relying on people to be logical.

01:05:40 ◼   ► But once you've connected the two devices

01:05:42 ◼   ► by doing that, like, pushing membrane thing,

01:05:46 ◼   ► I honestly find it kind of gross-looking,

01:05:48 ◼   ► but in the image -- I haven't run this myself,

01:05:51 ◼   ► but there's something about that that freaks me out a bit.

01:05:53 ◼   ► -My experience was it just, like, popped over,

01:05:55 ◼   ► and I, like, didn't even notice.

01:05:57 ◼   ► It just happened so quickly that --

01:05:59 ◼   ► -But then you can, in system preferences,

01:06:01 ◼   ► rearrange the placement, like it's an external monitor.

01:06:04 ◼   ► - Including heights.

01:06:05 ◼   ► So I had my iPad sitting on my desk

01:06:08 ◼   ► and so it was below the height of my iMac.

01:06:10 ◼   ► And so I could make it geographically appropriate

01:06:13 ◼   ► that it was down below.

01:06:14 ◼   ► And then I put it in a stand

01:06:16 ◼   ► and then it was sort of parallel

01:06:18 ◼   ► and then I moved it up to be parallel.

01:06:20 ◼   ► And actually another way that this is superior to Sidecar

01:06:24 ◼   ► is that I am a right dock person.

01:06:26 ◼   ► And if I put an iPad to the right of my iMac

01:06:31 ◼   ► and I use Sidecar, the dock goes all the way out

01:06:35 ◼   ► to the right side of the iPad.

01:06:37 ◼   ► - Which is terrible.

01:06:38 ◼   ► - Which is terrible, I don't want it there.

01:06:40 ◼   ► I would have to use Switch Glass by John Syracuse

01:06:44 ◼   ► in that case, by the way.

01:06:45 ◼   ► But instead with universal control,

01:06:49 ◼   ► the Mac still ends on the right.

01:06:52 ◼   ► And so when you move your mouse over

01:06:54 ◼   ► to the edge of the Mac screen

01:06:55 ◼   ► and move it over onto the iPad,

01:06:57 ◼   ► the dock is still right where it is

01:06:58 ◼   ► 'cause there is no Mac to the right,

01:07:00 ◼   ► It's just this iPad.

01:07:02 ◼   ► A funny thing that happens though is that there,

01:07:04 ◼   ► it does a little creepy,

01:07:06 ◼   ► I don't know if they're going to change this.

01:07:07 ◼   ► As you push the cursor over to the iPad,

01:07:09 ◼   ► it sort of leaves the dead body of the Mac cursor behind.

01:07:13 ◼   ► - Oh, I don't like that.

01:07:14 ◼   ► - You can actually see like the edge of the pointer

01:07:17 ◼   ► off on the right edge, sort of ghostly.

01:07:22 ◼   ► And in fact, if it's hovering over a dock item,

01:07:26 ◼   ► the dock item stays with its name highlighted.

01:07:30 ◼   ► which is, again, I think this is something

01:07:32 ◼   ► they probably need to address in the beta,

01:07:35 ◼   ► that that cursor should sort of disappear from the Mac

01:07:38 ◼   ► and not just have its astral body be cast over to the iPad

01:07:43 ◼   ► while its physical body remains a shell on the Mac.

01:07:49 ◼   ► It's a little weird, but maybe they'll fix that.

01:07:52 ◼   ► - I had a lot of very funny text message

01:07:55 ◼   ► from a friend of the show, one true John Voorhees today.

01:07:58 ◼   ► He said, "Top tip, don't restart your iPad

01:08:02 ◼   ► "when it has control of your Mac's trackpad and keyboard."

01:08:06 ◼   ► - Oh no.

01:08:07 ◼   ► (laughing)

01:08:08 ◼   ► - He said, "It was fine once everything was back up,

01:08:11 ◼   ► "but it doesn't currently kick the input devices

01:08:13 ◼   ► "back to the Mac."

01:08:15 ◼   ► - Oh dear, oh dear.

01:08:16 ◼   ► - He just turned off his iPad

01:08:18 ◼   ► and then his Mac couldn't do anything.

01:08:20 ◼   ► (laughing)

01:08:21 ◼   ► - I love it.

01:08:22 ◼   ► - It is.

01:08:22 ◼   ► - Yeah, 'cause it does work both ways.

01:08:23 ◼   ► If you've got an iPad with Magic Trackpad

01:08:25 ◼   ► and you wanna sit on that

01:08:27 ◼   ► and then you've got a Mac next to it,

01:08:28 ◼   ► You can use the keyboard and trackpad

01:08:31 ◼   ► and it'll work the other way too.

01:08:32 ◼   ► - I would expect it would be easier to deal with

01:08:34 ◼   ► with the iPad in that situation.

01:08:35 ◼   ► I bet if you took it off and put it back on the trackpad

01:08:38 ◼   ► that would like kill the trackpad and restart it

01:08:41 ◼   ► 'cause you took the power away.

01:08:43 ◼   ► Yeah, I don't know.

01:08:44 ◼   ► But that was just very funny to me of like,

01:08:46 ◼   ► well, you could just, you know, bye bye, bye bye mouse.

01:08:51 ◼   ► - Yeah, yeah.

01:08:52 ◼   ► Oh, oh, did you need a keyboard?

01:08:54 ◼   ► Well, we don't have one anymore.

01:08:56 ◼   ► It's gone.

01:08:57 ◼   ► I don't know what happened to it.

01:08:57 ◼   ► - Is this tied to your Apple ID in some way?

01:09:01 ◼   ► - It's only in the sense that it is a proximity feature

01:09:06 ◼   ► like AirDrop continuity, I guess they call it, right?

01:09:09 ◼   ► And continuity only works with devices

01:09:12 ◼   ► that are logged into the same Apple ID.

01:09:15 ◼   ► - Okay, cool.

01:09:16 ◼   ► 'Cause I was gonna say like,

01:09:17 ◼   ► imagine you're sitting at the library

01:09:18 ◼   ► and you're accidentally pushed.

01:09:20 ◼   ► (laughs)

01:09:21 ◼   ► - Sorry, ma'am, that's my cursor.

01:09:23 ◼   ► I'll get it out of there immediately.

01:09:24 ◼   ► Okay, there you go, back to you.

01:09:27 ◼   ► I don't know, this is fun.

01:09:28 ◼   ► I'm very into this.

01:09:30 ◼   ► Does this work Mac to Mac too?

01:09:32 ◼   ► Yes, it does.

01:09:36 ◼   ► I'm intrigued about this feature.

01:09:37 ◼   ► I wonder if it will be a pain in any way.

01:09:41 ◼   ► I'm not, I haven't put the betas on.

01:09:44 ◼   ► I am not a mid-cycle beta person.

01:09:47 ◼   ► I never install these.

01:09:48 ◼   ► I only ever install the big Tempo releases, like 15, 16, that kind of thing.

01:09:56 ◼   ► It's very very rare that I will put one of these on because the features tend to be interesting

01:10:01 ◼   ► but not like "oh I feel like I have to run this" you know?

01:10:06 ◼   ► Because it's not really my bag.

01:10:09 ◼   ► I don't really like to be on the beta to be honest but I kind of just do it for the WWDC

01:10:14 ◼   ► one because it's so important.

01:10:18 ◼   ► But I'm intrigued to see if universal control would be something that I would like or whether

01:10:23 ◼   ► it would annoy me.

01:10:25 ◼   ► I don't know, yeah.

01:10:26 ◼   ► - As a, you know, it's like a virtual KVM,

01:10:29 ◼   ► well, not KVM, but like a keyboard mouse switch

01:10:32 ◼   ► that if you're somebody who has two Macs at your desk

01:10:35 ◼   ► for some reason, or a Mac like desktop and laptop

01:10:38 ◼   ► or whatever, yeah, that's one of the use cases of this too.

01:10:41 ◼   ► This is super edge casey in a way that we don't always see

01:10:45 ◼   ► for Apple features, but it is built on all

01:10:49 ◼   ► of these other features that it's been working on.

01:10:51 ◼   ► And yeah, I think what happened is that they built it

01:10:54 ◼   ► and they're like, "Whoa, this is actually really cool."

01:10:56 ◼   ► They made it a centerpiece of WWDC

01:10:58 ◼   ► and then they didn't ship it until a beta in January,

01:11:01 ◼   ► but it's cool.

01:11:03 ◼   ► Is it useful?

01:11:06 ◼   ► Like you really need to be somebody

01:11:08 ◼   ► who's got two devices at once,

01:11:09 ◼   ► but I occasionally will set up my iPad,

01:11:11 ◼   ► even at my desk to stream video

01:11:13 ◼   ► or do something else while I'm working on my Mac.

01:11:15 ◼   ► And the idea that I can do that

01:11:17 ◼   ► and then just sort of mouse over in order to control it,

01:11:21 ◼   ► that's, it's great.

01:11:22 ◼   ► That's like really nice.

01:11:23 ◼   ► - I like it.

01:11:25 ◼   ► - I'm wondering when this is gonna come out.

01:11:27 ◼   ► Is this, 'cause sometimes they have these point releases

01:11:31 ◼   ► in beta for a while because they're also going to include

01:11:35 ◼   ► his information about product you haven't seen.

01:11:38 ◼   ► - Well, two things.

01:11:40 ◼   ► One is this is the big feature release.

01:11:42 ◼   ► So I feel like the beta cycle will be longer

01:11:44 ◼   ► because they added so many new features essentially

01:11:47 ◼   ► to the operating systems

01:11:48 ◼   ► that we just have detailed in this segment.

01:11:50 ◼   ► - In the past has been kind of like a March thing.

01:11:53 ◼   ► - Yeah, I will also throw out there,

01:11:56 ◼   ► are they gonna do an event?

01:12:00 ◼   ► Is that event gonna have something

01:12:01 ◼   ► that's enabled by an OS update?

01:12:03 ◼   ► Might this be tied to that?

01:12:05 ◼   ► Maybe?

01:12:05 ◼   ► - Maybe. - I don't know.

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01:14:36 ◼   ► Apple's Q1 2022 results.

01:14:40 ◼   ► Obviously top line.

01:14:41 ◼   ► Money, money, money, money, money, money.

01:14:43 ◼   ► Cha-ching.

01:14:44 ◼   ► It's that time again where we talk about inconceivable amounts of money.

01:14:49 ◼   ► Money, money, money, money.

01:14:51 ◼   ► It is, yeah.

01:14:52 ◼   ► 123.9 billion dollars of revenue.

01:14:56 ◼   ► That is, of course, an all-time record for Apple.

01:14:59 ◼   ► It is, as anticipated.

01:15:00 ◼   ► 11% year-over-year increase.

01:15:04 ◼   ► and that was the previous record holder

01:15:07 ◼   ► because Q1 is actually the holiday quarter.

01:15:11 ◼   ► So it's the end quarter of last year,

01:15:14 ◼   ► but it's just about the way these things are done

01:15:16 ◼   ► from financials and stuff like that.

01:15:18 ◼   ► That is $34.6 billion of profit,

01:15:22 ◼   ► which of course is also an all time record.

01:15:24 ◼   ► - Of course.

01:15:25 ◼   ► - $71.6 billion in the quarter for the iPhone.

01:15:28 ◼   ► This is the largest quarter ever for the iPhone.

01:15:32 ◼   ► I can't remember, Jason, if that's a surprise or not.

01:15:35 ◼   ► Was that, did we expect this?

01:15:38 ◼   ► - Yeah, I think they, so they don't forecast,

01:15:41 ◼   ► during the pandemic, they have not been forecasting,

01:15:44 ◼   ► but they said it would be a winner,

01:15:45 ◼   ► and they said that most of the stuff that they had

01:15:49 ◼   ► that would not be sold because they couldn't keep it

01:15:51 ◼   ► in stock that demand outstripped supply

01:15:53 ◼   ► would not be like the iPhone.

01:15:56 ◼   ► And we know that that's the big iPhone quarter, right?

01:15:58 ◼   ► Because it's the iPhone release quarter.

01:15:59 ◼   ► - Oh, but it was the iPhone 12.

01:16:02 ◼   ► Everyone expected would be a massive one

01:16:04 ◼   ► because it was a new design

01:16:06 ◼   ► and there were new sizes and stuff

01:16:08 ◼   ► because there was a bigger version then, right?

01:16:11 ◼   ► Of the big phone.

01:16:12 ◼   ► - If you look at the last sort of three year cycle,

01:16:15 ◼   ► it was a big year, then a step back,

01:16:18 ◼   ► then a little bit of a step forward.

01:16:20 ◼   ► And then they did the new design and we got a big year.

01:16:23 ◼   ► And then instead of a step back, we got a step forward.

01:16:26 ◼   ► So it is a little surprising sort of cyclically

01:16:29 ◼   ► in terms of the life of a particular iPhone model.

01:16:32 ◼   ► I don't know how much the pandemic has affected it.

01:16:35 ◼   ► Also, there's just this general growth.

01:16:36 ◼   ► Like, the in-between quarters,

01:16:40 ◼   ► between last holiday quarter and this holiday quarter

01:16:42 ◼   ► for the iPhone, were way higher

01:16:45 ◼   ► than the in-between quarters any previous year.

01:16:49 ◼   ► So I think that's the rising tide

01:16:51 ◼   ► kind of lifting all boats,

01:16:54 ◼   ► that like the base of the iPhone continues to grow

01:16:59 ◼   ► even though we're in a sort of secondary year,

01:17:03 ◼   ► I mean, not that people aren't buying iPhones all the time,

01:17:06 ◼   ► but there is like an impetus for a lot of people

01:17:08 ◼   ► when there's a new look in an iPhone

01:17:10 ◼   ► to buy the iPhone then.

01:17:11 ◼   ► And so that's usually,

01:17:12 ◼   ► you usually get a little bit of a spike

01:17:14 ◼   ► and then it slides back and that did not happen this time.

01:17:18 ◼   ► - So that is up 9% year over year,

01:17:21 ◼   ► which is in the iPhone business.

01:17:23 ◼   ► - Forget over the all time high, which was set last year.

01:17:26 ◼   ► - Yeah, I just, when I read it,

01:17:28 ◼   ► I was like, hang on a minute.

01:17:29 ◼   ► Like, I don't know what I was expecting specifically,

01:17:32 ◼   ► but I wasn't expecting that it would be bigger by a margin,

01:17:37 ◼   ► like a chunk, 'cause it was like,

01:17:40 ◼   ► oh, I thought that this might be a bit of a calmer iPhone.

01:17:45 ◼   ► Yeah, but what's going on?

01:17:46 ◼   ► - 6 billion more in sales than a year ago.

01:17:50 ◼   ► - $10.9 billion for the Mac.

01:17:52 ◼   ► So once again, the largest Mac quarter ever.

01:17:55 ◼   ► The previous was 9.2 billion, which was last quarter.

01:17:59 ◼   ► - Which was last quarter, yeah.

01:18:00 ◼   ► And the six highest Mac quarters of all time

01:18:05 ◼   ► are the last six, the six most recent.

01:18:08 ◼   ► This is the--

01:18:09 ◼   ► - But this one is shot up though, right?

01:18:11 ◼   ► Like it went up to nine and then was just hovering

01:18:14 ◼   ► around nine and now we're basically up to 11.

01:18:18 ◼   ► - Exactly, they went up whatever that is,

01:18:22 ◼   ► 1.7 billion in sequential from their high,

01:18:27 ◼   ► from their all time high to this number,

01:18:30 ◼   ► 25% up year over year.

01:18:33 ◼   ► If you look at the four quarter moving average,

01:18:34 ◼   ► again, biggest ever in the Mac.

01:18:37 ◼   ► Apple lays this at the feet of the Apple Silicon transition.

01:18:42 ◼   ► They're like, this is about the M1.

01:18:45 ◼   ► And I'm sure it is to a certain extent,

01:18:47 ◼   ► it's also about the pandemic,

01:18:50 ◼   ► maybe pulling some people forward and saying,

01:18:52 ◼   ► "Oh geez, I really need to buy a new Mac

01:18:55 ◼   ► 'cause I'm working at home."

01:18:57 ◼   ► But they also said that like in China,

01:18:59 ◼   ► half the people who bought Macs were new to the Mac, right?

01:19:02 ◼   ► Like this is that rising tide too.

01:19:04 ◼   ► Like Apple is not just cycling through people.

01:19:07 ◼   ► They say they set all time records in their installed base,

01:19:12 ◼   ► which is not the sales figure, right?

01:19:14 ◼   ► That's the how many devices they feel

01:19:17 ◼   ► are being actively used at any one time.

01:19:20 ◼   ► So when something gets retired and recycled,

01:19:22 ◼   ► it leaves the install base.

01:19:24 ◼   ► A new model adds to the install base.

01:19:26 ◼   ► And Apple says their install base continues to grow

01:19:28 ◼   ► and their installed base in fact was all time highs

01:19:31 ◼   ► in all product categories.

01:19:33 ◼   ► That means there are more people,

01:19:34 ◼   ► more Macs in active use today than ever,

01:19:37 ◼   ► according to Apple, which is not surprising given the sales,

01:19:40 ◼   ► but it's something to keep in mind.

01:19:41 ◼   ► So that's part of the rise here too,

01:19:44 ◼   ► is now you have more users in the ecosystem

01:19:46 ◼   ► who will then buy a new Mac when the old Mac retires

01:19:49 ◼   ► or they'll roll that down to somebody.

01:19:50 ◼   ► So, yeah, this is the highest the Mac has ever been.

01:19:53 ◼   ► Again, not bad for a product that is pretty old.

01:19:58 ◼   ► You know, this is a product that's 38 years old this month,

01:20:03 ◼   ► and it's at its highest point now.

01:20:07 ◼   ► But Apple Silicon, right?

01:20:08 ◼   ► Like the Apple Silicon transition certainly did not hurt.

01:20:11 ◼   ► That not only is that forcing people sort of like,

01:20:13 ◼   ► oh, well, I'm gonna get rid of my Intel Mac,

01:20:15 ◼   ► but it also is telling a great story.

01:20:17 ◼   ► Like that MacBook Air is such a great product

01:20:19 ◼   ► for that price.

01:20:20 ◼   ► And it's aided by the fact that it is running that M1 chip.

01:20:25 ◼   ► - I guess this is just people getting laptops for Christmas.

01:20:28 ◼   ► Right? Like that's-

01:20:29 ◼   ► - Well, it's the MacBook Pro, right?

01:20:31 ◼   ► It's a lot of people buying the new MacBook Pro.

01:20:33 ◼   ► - Yes, the MacBook Pro.

01:20:34 ◼   ► - And that is an expensive product.

01:20:36 ◼   ► So it's gonna drive more revenue.

01:20:38 ◼   ► - Yeah.

01:20:38 ◼   ► - And we don't get to see unit sales anymore.

01:20:40 ◼   ► - Right, yeah. - So it's all that.

01:20:41 ◼   ► But it's like, the Mac is just,

01:20:43 ◼   ► The Mac is firing on all cylinders right now.

01:20:45 ◼   ► And Apple is aided here probably by the fact

01:20:47 ◼   ► that these new Apple Silicon designs probably don't rely

01:20:50 ◼   ► on some of the older tech that is the stuff

01:20:52 ◼   ► that is supply constrained.

01:20:53 ◼   ► - And they make more money as well, right?

01:20:55 ◼   ► - Yeah, exactly.

01:20:57 ◼   ► - 'Cause I just feel like we got a big bump,

01:21:01 ◼   ► probably got the working from home bump.

01:21:03 ◼   ► And that's surely over, right?

01:21:05 ◼   ► Like anyone that needed a computer for working at home

01:21:08 ◼   ► by and large has already gotten one or been given one.

01:21:11 ◼   ► - Probably.

01:21:12 ◼   ► you know, like in the large scale, right?

01:21:15 ◼   ► I feel like we've had the large scale purchases

01:21:18 ◼   ► like that happened, you know, throughout 2020.

01:21:23 ◼   ► And so it's just, I again,

01:21:27 ◼   ► was not expecting such a jump.

01:21:30 ◼   ► I mean, if you would have asked me, I would have said,

01:21:31 ◼   ► yeah, it's probably gonna do the highest ever again.

01:21:35 ◼   ► But I wasn't expecting, you know, close to,

01:21:38 ◼   ► We're not far off of a $2 billion quarter over quarter change as well.

01:21:44 ◼   ► So yeah, that was a surprise to me.

01:21:47 ◼   ► The iPad, $7.2 billion is down 14% year over year.

01:21:53 ◼   ► And again, you'll be like, "Oh, that's a shame and a surprise.

01:21:56 ◼   ► It's the only one here."

01:21:58 ◼   ► But I believe from reading your analysis, they actually specifically said the biggest

01:22:04 ◼   ► product that they'd struggled with with the supply chain was the iPad.

01:22:07 ◼   ► Was that right?

01:22:08 ◼   ► The iPad is apparently built out of legacy nodes.

01:22:11 ◼   ► - Yeah, it's just loads of legacy nodes.

01:22:13 ◼   ► - The Tim Cook phrase for the older,

01:22:17 ◼   ► this is the stuff when we talk about

01:22:18 ◼   ► like semiconductor shortages and supply chain issues

01:22:21 ◼   ► and people aren't building cars or like Tesla is shipping

01:22:24 ◼   ► cars without USB ports in them and stuff like that.

01:22:27 ◼   ► This is why, right?

01:22:28 ◼   ► It's this stuff.

01:22:29 ◼   ► And for whatever reason, the iPad has more of those.

01:22:32 ◼   ► Some, an astute analyst asked, is it because of that

01:22:36 ◼   ► or is it because you prioritized all the parts

01:22:38 ◼   ► to be in the iPhone instead?

01:22:39 ◼   ► 'Cause it's like the iPhone launch.

01:22:41 ◼   ► And Tim Cook sort of said,

01:22:43 ◼   ► he didn't quite say a little from column A

01:22:45 ◼   ► and a little from column B, he said, primarily not.

01:22:48 ◼   ► He said, we could do a little,

01:22:49 ◼   ► he had a very funny line where it was like,

01:22:51 ◼   ► we could do a little, but we can't do a lot.

01:22:55 ◼   ► And so when you look at that behind the curtain,

01:22:57 ◼   ► you could say, are we back there?

01:22:59 ◼   ► And we are back there, but we're not, but not that much.

01:23:02 ◼   ► It was sort of like a little bit, but not,

01:23:05 ◼   ► I'm sure that there was some prioritization of parts

01:23:08 ◼   ► to fulfill iPhone orders,

01:23:10 ◼   ► but it sounds like it's more than that.

01:23:12 ◼   ► It's also just like there are iPads in their lineup,

01:23:14 ◼   ► maybe not all of them, but at least some of them

01:23:16 ◼   ► that are using kind of the older technology

01:23:18 ◼   ► that other people are also using, and it's constrained

01:23:21 ◼   ► because of the pandemic causing the factory shutdowns

01:23:25 ◼   ► and then restarts and all the things that have led

01:23:27 ◼   ► to these supply chain issues that we see everywhere.

01:23:31 ◼   ► And so they warned that they were gonna sell

01:23:33 ◼   ► out $6 billion less than they could have in this quarter, this record quarter could have

01:23:38 ◼   ► been $6 billion higher than it actually was, and that the iPad was going to be the most

01:23:43 ◼   ► constrained by that. And so you could chalk that up to that the iPad just—they couldn't

01:23:51 ◼   ► make them fast enough, and that's what they said, is that the iPad sold pretty well given

01:23:56 ◼   ► that they had some severe constraints. And I heard from a couple of people when I tweeted

01:24:00 ◼   ► that out who said, "Yeah, I ordered an iPad Mini in November and I got it, you know, the

01:24:04 ◼   ► first week of January."

01:24:05 ◼   ► I knew people similar. Like, I have a couple of friends who ordered them, like a couple

01:24:10 ◼   ► of weeks after they came out and just got them. It seemed like, you know, the iPad Mini

01:24:15 ◼   ► seemed to be pretty hit by that, along with, you know, maybe some of the others, but that

01:24:19 ◼   ► one...

01:24:20 ◼   ► So I don't, I mean, we used to do on this podcast, we've been going long enough now

01:24:23 ◼   ► that it used to be the "Is the iPad gonna hit bottom?" And we've reached the point now

01:24:28 ◼   ► where my chart doesn't even show that era, because my chart only goes back to 2017, the

01:24:36 ◼   ► normal one that I publish. And the iPad has been on the upswing since then, and to the

01:24:42 ◼   ► point now that even with this lower quarter, the iPad has basically turned into an $8 billion

01:24:48 ◼   ► a quarter business. When it was sort of stabilized, it was a $5 billion a quarter business. So

01:24:55 ◼   ► So a big upswing in just a handful of years for the iPad.

01:24:59 ◼   ► And I suspect that that's where the iPad will live now is in that seven, eight, nine billion

01:25:04 ◼   ► a quarter range.

01:25:05 ◼   ► So this is at $19.5 billion up 24% year over year.

01:25:10 ◼   ► The most boring chart I could possibly do because it's just a bunch of purple bars that

01:25:14 ◼   ► go up every single time they go up.

01:25:19 ◼   ► They went up again.

01:25:20 ◼   ► It's an all time high.

01:25:22 ◼   ► 24% year over year increase.

01:25:25 ◼   ► They have done five straight quarters

01:25:29 ◼   ► with a 24% or higher year over year growth rate,

01:25:33 ◼   ► which is wild.

01:25:34 ◼   ► And that's coming off of a period

01:25:36 ◼   ► where they were in the 17, 18, 19% year over year.

01:25:40 ◼   ► So it just keeps going up.

01:25:41 ◼   ► This is, and it's not seasonal, of course,

01:25:44 ◼   ► 'cause it's just a subscription service.

01:25:45 ◼   ► And they talked about it

01:25:46 ◼   ► and how many subscriptions they have now.

01:25:48 ◼   ► And that does include App Store subscriptions.

01:25:51 ◼   ► They include subscriptions on their platform,

01:25:54 ◼   ► aren't just Apple TV Plus subscriptions,

01:25:55 ◼   ► but they are if you pay for carrot weather.

01:25:57 ◼   ► - I had some thoughts on this.

01:25:58 ◼   ► So 785 million paying subscribers

01:26:02 ◼   ► is the number that they gave.

01:26:04 ◼   ► - Yep.

01:26:04 ◼   ► - Which is, that number specifically is up 27%

01:26:09 ◼   ► in the last year.

01:26:11 ◼   ► - Yeah, mm-hmm.

01:26:12 ◼   ► - Yeah, amount of people and value

01:26:16 ◼   ► are not gonna be the same.

01:26:18 ◼   ► But as you say, it includes all subscriptions.

01:26:20 ◼   ► And so like as you say, Carrotweather, Tweetbot is the same in this number as Apple TV+, iCloud.

01:26:29 ◼   ► And this was like another reminder for me of why they do not want to give any of these

01:26:34 ◼   ► people up.

01:26:35 ◼   ► You know, why they want to keep everyone in their system.

01:26:40 ◼   ► Because Wall Street at the moment really, really, and have done for a couple of years,

01:26:44 ◼   ► but really care about this specific number for Apple.

01:26:47 ◼   ► That's why Apple pushed so hard on it because this is their like,

01:26:52 ◼   ► we know we're going to grow here.

01:26:54 ◼   ► I mean, look, we're talking about the numbers, the iPhone seeing that stopped

01:26:57 ◼   ► happening for a while. Right. And it was like, well,

01:27:00 ◼   ► they've reached the top with the iPhone. I mean, we now know they haven't,

01:27:03 ◼   ► but everybody, including Apple, I think thought that for a bit.

01:27:07 ◼   ► And so they started pushing on their services more and they want that chart to

01:27:11 ◼   ► just keep going up. And I mean, to me, honestly, like, you know,

01:27:16 ◼   ► So basically Apple choose how they want to slice these numbers and serve them up in a way that looks good for them because they could

01:27:22 ◼   ► also

01:27:22 ◼   ► break that out right of like

01:27:24 ◼   ► This is what we get through the App Store

01:27:26 ◼   ► And this is what we get for our actual

01:27:28 ◼   ► Services that we provide that we talk about because you know when Apple were talking about their services revenue

01:27:34 ◼   ► I'm sure they talk about all of their own ones and not like hey an X amount of these are for this thing

01:27:41 ◼   ► Which is what nothing to do of us?

01:27:43 ◼   ► And for me as well, I think what actually really matters

01:27:48 ◼   ► is Apple's own stuff.

01:27:49 ◼   ► And that should only be my opinion

01:27:51 ◼   ► what actually matters to Wall Street

01:27:52 ◼   ► because Apple can't change that positively or negatively,

01:27:57 ◼   ► the number there,

01:27:58 ◼   ► because they are actually not Apple's customers.

01:28:01 ◼   ► They're the customers of the third party developers

01:28:03 ◼   ► or whatever.

01:28:04 ◼   ► - Yeah, but that's not how Apple views it, right?

01:28:05 ◼   ► Apple talks a lot about the subscriptions on their platform

01:28:08 ◼   ► and the revenue on their platform.

01:28:09 ◼   ► And that gives you an insight

01:28:11 ◼   ► into why Apple behaves the way it does with regulators.

01:28:15 ◼   ► - Yeah, I mean, but it's what they choose,

01:28:17 ◼   ► is what I mean.

01:28:18 ◼   ► Like they choose that.

01:28:20 ◼   ► I think realistically, they're aware that they're not,

01:28:24 ◼   ► it's not that, you know, that customer relationship

01:28:26 ◼   ► is provided by somebody else,

01:28:29 ◼   ► but they also just want the money, you know?

01:28:32 ◼   ► I think there's that jewel part of it, but.

01:28:34 ◼   ► - They do.

01:28:35 ◼   ► - So I find that weird.

01:28:36 ◼   ► I honestly, I find that a little bit weird, but here we are.

01:28:39 ◼   ► and $14.7 billion of wearable home and accessories.

01:28:44 ◼   ► That is up 13% year over year,

01:28:46 ◼   ► the largest ever quarter in that as well.

01:28:49 ◼   ► AirPods, three maybe?

01:28:51 ◼   ► Driving some of that and additional growth.

01:28:55 ◼   ► - And I think Apple Watch doing pretty well.

01:28:57 ◼   ► - I always forget Apple Watch is in this category.

01:28:59 ◼   ► - They didn't have an Apple Watch Superlative, right?

01:29:03 ◼   ► So, you know, it may not have been

01:29:05 ◼   ► the best Apple Watch quarter ever.

01:29:08 ◼   ► - That wouldn't be a surprise for this one.

01:29:10 ◼   ► I feel like, breakdown, iPhone is 58%,

01:29:13 ◼   ► service is 16%, wearables 12, Mac 9, iPad 6,

01:29:17 ◼   ► as like percentage of overall revenue.

01:29:20 ◼   ► - Yeah, the Mac, that shows you too,

01:29:21 ◼   ► the iPad is growing, even though they didn't have

01:29:23 ◼   ► a great quarter and so it's down a little bit there.

01:29:26 ◼   ► But the iPad is growing, but it shows you the Mac growth.

01:29:28 ◼   ► When I was doing the pie chart a year or two ago,

01:29:31 ◼   ► the Mac and the iPad were at the, basically the same size.

01:29:34 ◼   ► For a very long time, the Mac and the iPad

01:29:35 ◼   ► were the same size.

01:29:37 ◼   ► And now it's Mac 9, iPad 6.

01:29:39 ◼   ► Like they are appreciably different

01:29:41 ◼   ► parts of Apple's revenue composition.

01:29:42 ◼   ► And that's because the Mac's done so well

01:29:44 ◼   ► and the iPad is doing well,

01:29:45 ◼   ► but it's not growing like the Mac is growing.

01:29:47 ◼   ► And then services.

01:29:48 ◼   ► And then you talk about like put them together

01:29:50 ◼   ► and what does that add up to?

01:29:52 ◼   ► 15%, well services is 16%.

01:29:54 ◼   ► So the Apple services business is now greater than the Mac

01:29:57 ◼   ► and the iPad put together.

01:29:58 ◼   ► And wearables is at 12% too.

01:30:00 ◼   ► So it's yeah, there's a lot.

01:30:03 ◼   ► And then iPhone 58%

01:30:04 ◼   ► 'cause this is the quarter where iPhone

01:30:05 ◼   ► is always like way over half of Apple's revenue.

01:30:09 ◼   ► - One of the things that they didn't give

01:30:13 ◼   ► was any guidance, right?

01:30:14 ◼   ► - So this is how I've decided to interpret Apple.

01:30:17 ◼   ► Apple did a lot of stuff back in the day

01:30:20 ◼   ► because they decided this is how they're gonna report.

01:30:24 ◼   ► Maybe there were some regulations.

01:30:25 ◼   ► And at some point in the last few years,

01:30:27 ◼   ► somebody at Apple, maybe it was Luca Maestri,

01:30:30 ◼   ► the CFO when he took over as CFO,

01:30:33 ◼   ► somebody said, "You know, we disclose more than we're legally obligated to." And you would think

01:30:40 ◼   ► that would have been a Steve Jobs thing, but it's not a Steve Jobs era thing. It is this Tim Cook era

01:30:44 ◼   ► thing where they're like, "Okay, let's not disclose more than we're legally obligated to." So what did

01:30:51 ◼   ► they do? They stopped talking about unit sales because they weren't legally obligated to talk

01:30:55 ◼   ► about them. They just stopped doing that. The calls that they do with analysts got more and

01:31:04 ◼   ► more scripted, fewer questions and answers. The answers have been less informative because they're

01:31:10 ◼   ► much more disciplined about staying on script and not disclosing more information. And the only

01:31:15 ◼   ► information that they do disclose that goes above and beyond is the stuff that they've decided makes

01:31:19 ◼   ► them look good. Like you mentioned, subscriptions and install base are figures that they don't have

01:31:24 ◼   ► have to quote and they don't report legally,

01:31:26 ◼   ► but they mention them because they make them look good.

01:31:30 ◼   ► When we talk about guidance,

01:31:33 ◼   ► Apple has always traditionally given guidance.

01:31:38 ◼   ► And I think that it's a best practice to give guidance.

01:31:42 ◼   ► But the moment the pandemic happened, Apple said,

01:31:44 ◼   ► "We are unable to give guidance

01:31:46 ◼   ► because guidance should be made with confidence."

01:31:48 ◼   ► I think that that's probably one of the, again,

01:31:50 ◼   ► best practices of this sort of financial stuff is,

01:31:53 ◼   ► if you're going to tell investors something about the future, you need to have some confidence

01:31:58 ◼   ► in it because otherwise there are some legal issues if you tell investors things that you

01:32:02 ◼   ► don't actually believe. So, okay. And they famously, Apple used to sandbag their numbers

01:32:08 ◼   ► and they'd guide to something lower than what they actually were thinking and they stopped

01:32:11 ◼   ► doing that. They started being much more accurate with their guidance. Pandemic happens, they

01:32:15 ◼   ► stopped guiding altogether. And instead they give these things that are like fake guidance

01:32:19 ◼   ► where they're like, "Well, we're not going to guide to a number, but we do think it's

01:32:22 ◼   ► going to be a record, which they've done several times, and they did this time. They didn't

01:32:28 ◼   ► give guidance, but they said it will be a March quarter record, but growth will decelerate.

01:32:33 ◼   ► That was the other thing they said, which means that they're not going to shrink, but

01:32:36 ◼   ► the growth rates will be lower year over year than they have been recently. And they gave

01:32:42 ◼   ► some reasons for that, including continued supply chain issues that will not be, again,

01:32:46 ◼   ► without specifying a number, will not be as bad as they were last quarter, but they will

01:32:51 ◼   ► still be bad. And so they, again, this is just, it's all part of the same thing, which

01:32:57 ◼   ► is I think Apple has decided they're going to milk the "we're not giving guidance as

01:33:01 ◼   ► long as possible." And so even though they could, you know, the pandemic is changing

01:33:08 ◼   ► and they probably have a better gauge of how they're doing than they did when they stopped

01:33:13 ◼   ► giving guidance, but they're not going to go back to giving guidance, specific guidance

01:33:18 ◼   ► of what their revenue number is going to be next quarter until they absolutely have to

01:33:22 ◼   ► because why disclose something you don't have to?

01:33:25 ◼   ► >>ANDREW: Or maybe they'll just never do it again, you know.

01:33:28 ◼   ► >>DAVID I mean, maybe. I think they will have to at some point because I do think that Wall

01:33:32 ◼   ► Street kind of really does expect that as a publicly held company and that when they

01:33:37 ◼   ► are more confident about it—and I don't think that they're lying about it. I think

01:33:41 ◼   ► that there is more uncertainty than they're comfortable with, but they are comfortable

01:33:44 ◼   ► enough to say it's going to be a record quarter, it's going to be the best March quarter ever

01:33:48 ◼   ► They were comfortable enough to say that, but just not to put a number on it.

01:33:52 ◼   ► Because I would expect it's also like, you know, some of the guidance is based on stuff,

01:33:56 ◼   ► "Oh, we know we're releasing this thing," but I would expect at the moment don't know

01:33:59 ◼   ► they're releasing anything at the time that they want to release it, you know, or they

01:34:03 ◼   ► have to make that decision late.

01:34:05 ◼   ► And keep in mind, when they do this conference call, they've already got figures for the

01:34:09 ◼   ► first month of the next quarter.

01:34:10 ◼   ► So they actually do have some idea of how that quarter is going, and they know what

01:34:14 ◼   ► they're going to be announcing and they know what the, you know, do they have extras or

01:34:18 ◼   ► are they having trouble building things? Like they have a lot of data and that allows them

01:34:21 ◼   ► to make a guess about it. But as to what that actually is, I mean, I guess all we really

01:34:30 ◼   ► know is that it will be more, it'll probably be 90 plus million just because their record

01:34:36 ◼   ► is 89.6. That was last year and it will be more than that. So you could say they're guiding

01:34:42 ◼   ► to above 90, but we don't actually know what that means. But anyway, Wall Street will take

01:34:48 ◼   ► that and I'm sure it's already built it into the price of the stock, which we don't care

01:34:53 ◼   ► about because we don't invest in Apple, but there it is.

01:34:55 ◼   ► MATT: Money, money, money, money, money.

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