Upgrade

00:00:00 ◼   ► [BEEP]

00:00:00 ◼   ► From Relay FM, this is Upgrade, episode 394.

00:00:12 ◼   ► Today's show is brought to you by New Relic, DoorDash, and Mebafol.

00:00:16 ◼   ► My name is Myke Hurley and I'm joined by Jason Snow.

00:00:18 ◼   ► Hi, Jason Snow.

00:00:20 ◼   ► Hi, Myke Hurley.

00:00:20 ◼   ► Happy Valentine's Day.

00:00:22 ◼   ► Oh, happy Valentine's Day to you too.

00:00:25 ◼   ► I have a #snowtalk question for you.

00:00:26 ◼   ► comes from Doc Ziandras who asks, "Given Jason that you have mentioned that you do not wear

00:00:32 ◼   ► red because of, was it Cal Games?"

00:00:34 ◼   ► Yeah, because Stanford is red, so we don't wear red.

00:00:38 ◼   ► "What color of Arsenal shirt do you own or would you put on for a match?"

00:00:42 ◼   ► Okay, so, Arsenal's colors are red and white just like Stanford and it makes me very sad.

00:00:48 ◼   ► There's a lot of cognitive dissonance there.

00:00:50 ◼   ► I do have an Arsenal shirt.

00:00:52 ◼   ► Okay.

00:00:53 ◼   ► I have worn it occasionally.

00:00:54 ◼   ► It's a red one?

00:00:56 ◼   ► red, a red one. Don't love it, don't love it, but I do have it. I wore it, I wore to

00:01:03 ◼   ► a, I went to a 49ers game once and their color, they're a red team and I went and so I wore

00:01:08 ◼   ► the, I didn't have any other red shirts and I was like, oh Arsenal Sports, I'll wear it.

00:01:12 ◼   ► Why don't you get the away kit? We're very confused. Well that's, that's what I, I also

00:01:15 ◼   ► got this shirt a long time ago. I literally, I got this shirt in the Caribbean at a shop

00:01:20 ◼   ► that was selling like bootleg soccer shirts,

00:01:24 ◼   ► three for $10 or something like that.

00:01:26 ◼   ► And so I got myself an Arsenal one

00:01:29 ◼   ► and then I got a England team one for my friend, Kurt,

00:01:33 ◼   ► and I got a Chelsea one for my friend, Phil,

00:01:36 ◼   ► 'cause it was three for $10.

00:01:38 ◼   ► And so, yeah, it's served its purpose.

00:01:41 ◼   ► I actually have an Arsenal scarf and it's the bruised banana,

00:01:44 ◼   ► which is their black and yellow,

00:01:45 ◼   ► which is their kind of like classic alternate colors set.

00:01:49 ◼   ► So yeah, that's probably, if I do buy an Arsenal shirt at some point, it will probably be an

00:01:54 ◼   ► alternate like that.

00:01:55 ◼   ► I have an Arsenal mug, it's blue, so that makes me, and also it's a mug, you don't wear

00:02:01 ◼   ► it, but I do have an Arsenal mug, but I don't have, that's my only Arsenal bit of, well,

00:02:06 ◼   ► the scarf, but the clothing-wise, it's just the, it's just that red shirt, and I don't

00:02:12 ◼   ► really wear it, because it makes me uncomfortable.

00:02:14 ◼   ► Right now, Arsenal's away kit is a not nice yellow, if you ask me.

00:02:20 ◼   ► I know, that's the problem. I've been waiting for a good alternate kit.

00:02:23 ◼   ► You should get the third shirt. The current third shirt looks really funky. It's like

00:02:27 ◼   ► this blue, black, hint of red, very hint of red, like a jagged line type thing. Looks

00:02:35 ◼   ► funky. It's got a little bit of red though, I don't know if you can accept that.

00:02:39 ◼   ► I don't know.

00:02:40 ◼   ► But I think it looks real fun. You should get that one.

00:02:43 ◼   ► Well, I'll think about it.

00:02:45 ◼   ► Well, now we know.

00:02:46 ◼   ► This is a very good question.

00:02:47 ◼   ► This is good respecting of the Jason lore, I think,

00:02:51 ◼   ► from "Dogs and Tricks."

00:02:52 ◼   ► I also wanted to say that I find it very strange,

00:02:55 ◼   ► the color schemes of soccer teams,

00:02:59 ◼   ► because in the primary four American sports,

00:03:04 ◼   ► teams basically have a color palette.

00:03:08 ◼   ► Okay.

00:03:09 ◼   ► So they've got two colors,

00:03:11 ◼   ► maybe an alternate is in there,

00:03:13 ◼   ► like an accent color.

00:03:14 ◼   ► And so all the uniforms are like either white

00:03:19 ◼   ► with the colors or they're gray with the colors

00:03:22 ◼   ► or they're the colors.

00:03:23 ◼   ► Like those are your choices.

00:03:25 ◼   ► And some people might say that was boring.

00:03:27 ◼   ► We can, maybe it is.

00:03:29 ◼   ► - It sounds boring.

00:03:30 ◼   ► - Beside the point.

00:03:30 ◼   ► But it's the team identity is the identity of the team.

00:03:35 ◼   ► Like it is like, you know what it is.

00:03:37 ◼   ► So I, as an American sports fan to have Arsenal,

00:03:41 ◼   ► which is a red and white team say,

00:03:43 ◼   ► "Yes, but sometimes we wear yellow

00:03:45 ◼   ► and other times we wear blue."

00:03:46 ◼   ► It's like, what?

00:03:48 ◼   ► - What if the other team is red?

00:03:51 ◼   ► That's the issue.

00:03:52 ◼   ► - Then you wear white.

00:03:53 ◼   ► - Right.

00:03:55 ◼   ► - That's how it works in American sports

00:03:57 ◼   ► is that there are very rarely

00:03:58 ◼   ► color on color match-ups of any kind.

00:04:00 ◼   ► They're generally not allowed,

00:04:01 ◼   ► occasionally is allowed and they look great.

00:04:03 ◼   ► But generally one team,

00:04:06 ◼   ► so like the Super Bowl yesterday,

00:04:09 ◼   ► one team wore white and one team wore black basically,

00:04:14 ◼   ► but it's orange and black for the Bengals.

00:04:16 ◼   ► And it was white with yellow and blue for the Rams.

00:04:19 ◼   ► But the primary color was white versus black

00:04:23 ◼   ► because you end up with like somebody has to pick.

00:04:28 ◼   ► The home team gets to choose their colors

00:04:30 ◼   ► and then the away team has to contrast with that.

00:04:32 ◼   ► It's basically how that works.

00:04:34 ◼   ► And so anyway, I just, as an aside,

00:04:36 ◼   ► as an American sports fan, I find it becoming,

00:04:38 ◼   ► a fan of an English football team,

00:04:42 ◼   ► very confusing about the fact that Arsenal is red and white,

00:04:45 ◼   ► and yet if I want to, I can get,

00:04:47 ◼   ► they wear another shirt that I could also buy

00:04:51 ◼   ► that is a totally different set of colors,

00:04:53 ◼   ► and that just is how it is.

00:04:54 ◼   ► So I'll flip on TV and I'll be like, "That's that team?"

00:04:58 ◼   ► Because they're wearing a weird color,

00:05:00 ◼   ► but the answer is that they don't really care so much.

00:05:03 ◼   ► They cycle through their alternate colors.

00:05:04 ◼   ► They've got the primary set,

00:05:05 ◼   ► but then they just kind of like throw it,

00:05:08 ◼   ► So much so, Myke, in fact, that it used to be

00:05:10 ◼   ► you couldn't buy baseball caps

00:05:12 ◼   ► that weren't in a very strict set of colors,

00:05:15 ◼   ► and that changed in the last 10 years.

00:05:17 ◼   ► We're now like, you're a Giants fan,

00:05:20 ◼   ► you can buy a blue Giants hat.

00:05:22 ◼   ► - Ooh, get out of town.

00:05:24 ◼   ► - Dodger fan, you can buy an orange Dodger hat.

00:05:27 ◼   ► - No way.

00:05:28 ◼   ► - Doesn't make any sense, but you can.

00:05:30 ◼   ► Anyway, I find these alternate colors weird,

00:05:35 ◼   ► but it is a great opportunity for me

00:05:36 ◼   ► to get an Arsenal shirt that's not red and white.

00:05:39 ◼   ► And I thank you for that suggestion.

00:05:41 ◼   ► I love it, I'm gonna do that, that's great.

00:05:43 ◼   ► But in the meantime, I have my Bruce Banana

00:05:46 ◼   ► black and yellow Arsenal scarf.

00:05:50 ◼   ► - Thoughts on the Super Bowl?

00:05:51 ◼   ► - Thoughts on the Super Bowl, lots of ads.

00:05:54 ◼   ► Lots of ads for things that you could watch

00:05:59 ◼   ► the rest of it online, which I always think is really funny.

00:06:02 ◼   ► Like there's a movie trailer that they wanna show you,

00:06:04 ◼   ► but they can really only show you 30 seconds of it.

00:06:06 ◼   ► So then they say, watch the whole trailer online

00:06:08 ◼   ► and you say, what did I just watch?

00:06:10 ◼   ► The answer is not the whole trailer, it's something else.

00:06:13 ◼   ► Lotta crypto saw a really fun comment who said that,

00:06:16 ◼   ► you know, the thing about all these ads for crypto

00:06:19 ◼   ► is that I never see ads for money.

00:06:20 ◼   ► Crypto is trying to, it's money, it's money.

00:06:24 ◼   ► It's like, well, yeah, money doesn't advertise.

00:06:25 ◼   ► - This Super Bowl is brought to you by the Euro.

00:06:28 ◼   ► - That's right, just think of it as money 'cause it's money.

00:06:32 ◼   ► So a lot of that, a lot of nostalgia,

00:06:35 ◼   ► but that always happens at these things.

00:06:36 ◼   ► A lot of electric cars,

00:06:37 ◼   ► I think I only noticed one ad for a non-electric car.

00:06:40 ◼   ► I thought that was a clear trend there.

00:06:42 ◼   ► - Interesting.

00:06:43 ◼   ► - The game was entertaining.

00:06:44 ◼   ► The whole NFL, well, the first round was bad,

00:06:46 ◼   ► but the last three rounds of the NFL playoffs

00:06:48 ◼   ► were all very entertaining.

00:06:48 ◼   ► So if you do like American football,

00:06:51 ◼   ► they put on a good show.

00:06:53 ◼   ► The Rams are owned by the owner of Arsenal.

00:06:56 ◼   ► I'm not a big fan of that guy,

00:07:00 ◼   ► but billionaires gonna billionaire.

00:07:03 ◼   ► And yeah, that's about it.

00:07:06 ◼   ► I'm glad it was entertaining.

00:07:07 ◼   ► - Thank you to Doug Zianzius

00:07:09 ◼   ► for that #snowtalk question.

00:07:11 ◼   ► I think I pronounced your username

00:07:12 ◼   ► about six different ways.

00:07:13 ◼   ► Maybe I got it right one time.

00:07:15 ◼   ► If you would like to send in a question of your own,

00:07:17 ◼   ► just send out a tweet with the #snowtalk

00:07:19 ◼   ► or use question mark snow talk

00:07:21 ◼   ► in the Relay FM members discord.

00:07:23 ◼   ► I believe it was last week that we spoke about

00:07:26 ◼   ► the possibility of tap to pay on the iPhone.

00:07:30 ◼   ► - We did.

00:07:31 ◼   ► - Couple of days later, I think quite surprisingly,

00:07:33 ◼   ► Apple announced it, just one of these

00:07:36 ◼   ► random out of the blue announcements.

00:07:39 ◼   ► I saw somebody say that this reminded them

00:07:42 ◼   ► of when Apple announced the Find My network

00:07:45 ◼   ► before they announced the thing of their own.

00:07:47 ◼   ► I don't know if this is gonna be the case,

00:07:49 ◼   ► but it at least was reminiscent of that,

00:07:50 ◼   ► of kind of like, hey, we're working on this thing,

00:07:53 ◼   ► you can't use it yet, no one can use it yet,

00:07:56 ◼   ► but eventually someone will be able to.

00:07:58 ◼   ► I'll give you a couple of quotes from Apple's press release.

00:08:01 ◼   ► Tap to Pay on iPhone will be available for payment platforms

00:08:04 ◼   ► and app developers to integrate into their iOS apps

00:08:07 ◼   ► and offer as a payment option to their business customers.

00:08:10 ◼   ► Apple will work closely with leading payment platforms

00:08:13 ◼   ► and app developers across the payments and commerce industry

00:08:15 ◼   ► to offer Tap to Pay to millions of merchants in the US.

00:08:19 ◼   ► Tap to Pay on iPhone will be available

00:08:21 ◼   ► to participate in payment platforms

00:08:23 ◼   ► and their app developer partners to leverage

00:08:25 ◼   ► in their software developer kits, SDKs,

00:08:28 ◼   ► in an upcoming iOS software beta.

00:08:30 ◼   ► Stripe will be the first payment platform

00:08:32 ◼   ► to offer Tap to Pay on iPhone to their business customers,

00:08:34 ◼   ► including the Shopify point of sale app this spring.

00:08:38 ◼   ► Additional payment platforms and apps

00:08:40 ◼   ► will follow later this year.

00:08:41 ◼   ► Any thoughts on this?

00:08:42 ◼   ► - I'm happy that this is part of a partnership thing

00:08:47 ◼   ► and doesn't seem to be like a straight up Apple

00:08:50 ◼   ► like play to control, you know,

00:08:52 ◼   ► we have unique access over this hardware

00:08:55 ◼   ► and so we're gonna control it entirely.

00:08:57 ◼   ► it does look like there.

00:08:58 ◼   ► I wonder if it was always conceived this way

00:09:00 ◼   ► or if they thought, you know,

00:09:01 ◼   ► we can't really play this game right now

00:09:03 ◼   ► where the scrutiny is on us.

00:09:05 ◼   ► I'm looking forward to seeing

00:09:06 ◼   ► who their other partners are gonna be.

00:09:08 ◼   ► You know, the truth is that there was a hole in the market

00:09:14 ◼   ► that was iPhones can't accept taps.

00:09:17 ◼   ► So we're going to build things like, you know,

00:09:21 ◼   ► Square built their readers and all of that,

00:09:24 ◼   ► that are like to accept this stuff.

00:09:27 ◼   ► But the truth is like most, I mean,

00:09:31 ◼   ► a lot of this stuff has moved to terminals now,

00:09:32 ◼   ► the actual terminals, it was kind of a hack.

00:09:35 ◼   ► And for people who are like really small businesses

00:09:38 ◼   ► who are just starting out and aren't gonna go buy a terminal,

00:09:41 ◼   ► having your iPhone just work as that

00:09:43 ◼   ► when you're selling stuff at the farmer's market

00:09:46 ◼   ► or at a like a artist at a convention,

00:09:48 ◼   ► like a comic convention or something like that,

00:09:50 ◼   ► where they're not gonna set up a whole kiosk,

00:09:52 ◼   ► but you can just tap and pay them with a credit card

00:09:56 ◼   ► like you were doing it at a business

00:09:58 ◼   ► that's got a big kiosk.

00:09:59 ◼   ► I think that's a good thing.

00:10:01 ◼   ► And I think Apple working with Stripe is a big,

00:10:04 ◼   ► you know, a winning move to start out.

00:10:07 ◼   ► So like, I'm fairly positive about this.

00:10:09 ◼   ► I don't think this is gonna be revolutionary

00:10:10 ◼   ► 'cause this isn't like casual payment between friends.

00:10:13 ◼   ► This is a credit card transaction being accepted.

00:10:15 ◼   ► So you gotta have a Stripe account

00:10:17 ◼   ► or a merchant account of some kind.

00:10:18 ◼   ► Like you've gotta have that infrastructure behind you.

00:10:21 ◼   ► it is for businesses, but I definitely think

00:10:23 ◼   ► it's going to be good for a sliver of business

00:10:25 ◼   ► that is no longer going to have to, like,

00:10:27 ◼   ► attach a little dongle onto their phone

00:10:30 ◼   ► in order to accept credit cards.

00:10:32 ◼   ► That's a nice thing.

00:10:34 ◼   ► -Yeah, I could imagine this going into different places.

00:10:36 ◼   ► I think I read somewhere that Apple said

00:10:38 ◼   ► they were going to bring it to their stores, which makes sense.

00:10:40 ◼   ► I could imagine this being a thing in restaurants,

00:10:43 ◼   ► retail, and stuff, like, just as not needing

00:10:45 ◼   ► to bring the card terminal to the table anymore,

00:10:47 ◼   ► you know, bring a phone to the table.

00:10:49 ◼   ► - Right, the phone could be the card terminal.

00:10:51 ◼   ► That's true, yeah.

00:10:53 ◼   ► - And so I could imagine little things like that, you know,

00:10:56 ◼   ► as ways to make this stuff a little more modern

00:10:58 ◼   ► and because, you know, you could get software

00:11:01 ◼   ► instead of needing to, on everybody's devices

00:11:04 ◼   ► rather than needing to get these hardware things

00:11:05 ◼   ► which slow to update and are expensive

00:11:08 ◼   ► and/or have a bunch of fees attached to it,

00:11:10 ◼   ► like if you wanna have one.

00:11:11 ◼   ► So there could be stuff like that.

00:11:12 ◼   ► I think this is cool.

00:11:13 ◼   ► I am with you that I'm pleased that Apple is announcing this

00:11:17 ◼   ► as a thing for people to work with them on

00:11:19 ◼   ► rather than them trying to be like,

00:11:20 ◼   ► "Hey, we've made this incredible new thing

00:11:25 ◼   ► "for everybody to sign up for and give us money for."

00:11:28 ◼   ► Apple will make money from this.

00:11:30 ◼   ► I don't think it will be a lot,

00:11:33 ◼   ► but they will make probably the same kind of money

00:11:35 ◼   ► they make on any Apple Pay transaction, I would expect.

00:11:37 ◼   ► - No, this isn't an Apple Pay transaction, right?

00:11:41 ◼   ► It's not.

00:11:42 ◼   ► - No.

00:11:43 ◼   ► - Right, so I don't know.

00:11:46 ◼   ► I assume that they are giving a little tiny piece.

00:11:49 ◼   ► They will get a little tiny piece of the transactions.

00:11:51 ◼   ► - I'm sure they will.

00:11:53 ◼   ► - But it's not the same structure

00:11:56 ◼   ► as something like Apple Pay or Apple Card.

00:11:59 ◼   ► So I don't know enough about the financial aspect of it,

00:12:02 ◼   ► but I do like the fact that they're working with partners.

00:12:04 ◼   ► Like that's the whole point.

00:12:05 ◼   ► - I expect that they probably maybe take a slice of the cut

00:12:08 ◼   ► that the partner was taking.

00:12:10 ◼   ► You know, they work out some deal together or whatever.

00:12:14 ◼   ► - It could be that they are in there with Stripe

00:12:16 ◼   ► and Stripe is putting a little tiny fraction

00:12:18 ◼   ► that they used to take and they're passing it on

00:12:21 ◼   ► and it's part of the process.

00:12:24 ◼   ► I honestly don't understand that part of the business

00:12:27 ◼   ► so I don't know, but I like the idea

00:12:28 ◼   ► that they're working with partners.

00:12:29 ◼   ► - I don't think there's room to put on top.

00:12:32 ◼   ► I mean, it could be that like if you sign up to this,

00:12:35 ◼   ► 'cause so you can say to Stripe,

00:12:37 ◼   ► "Hey, I wanna be in this,"

00:12:40 ◼   ► but Stripe could charge you a little bit more

00:12:44 ◼   ► and that goes to Apple, you know what I mean?

00:12:45 ◼   ► Like, there could be like a slight amount more.

00:12:48 ◼   ► I mean, because if these are the companies

00:12:50 ◼   ► that would otherwise have you be paying them yearly

00:12:53 ◼   ► for a terminal fee or whatever,

00:12:56 ◼   ► they'll probably still make you pay extra,

00:12:58 ◼   ► but it'll be a lot less than having a terminal.

00:13:01 ◼   ► So I imagine, look, Apple's getting paid here somehow.

00:13:05 ◼   ► How that happens, I don't know.

00:13:07 ◼   ► I feel very confident they're gonna get some amount of money

00:13:11 ◼   ► and I expect it will be some kind of slice of the fee

00:13:14 ◼   ► that the payment merchant thing,

00:13:16 ◼   ► or like the payment provider will have.

00:13:19 ◼   ► It's not gonna be like 30% or whatever,

00:13:21 ◼   ► 'cause it just can't be, right?

00:13:23 ◼   ► There just isn't room in this,

00:13:25 ◼   ► like no one would work with them,

00:13:27 ◼   ► but it's gonna be some kind of fee, I'm sure.

00:13:30 ◼   ► - Yep.

00:13:30 ◼   ► - Coda and the Tragedy of Macbeth land Apple

00:13:33 ◼   ► a total of six Oscar nominations.

00:13:36 ◼   ► These include Best Picture, Best Actor,

00:13:38 ◼   ► Best Supporting Actor, and much more.

00:13:40 ◼   ► - Yeah, Apple got their Best Picture.

00:13:42 ◼   ► - Yep.

00:13:43 ◼   ► press release was calling this historic and so was Tim Cook. I couldn't find anything

00:13:47 ◼   ► that was historic except it being history for Apple, I think is their history.

00:13:52 ◼   ► That's what they meant.

00:13:53 ◼   ► Which I find just very funny.

00:13:54 ◼   ► You go down in Apple history.

00:13:55 ◼   ► Historic! You know, it's like, I was like, are they the first streaming service? No.

00:14:00 ◼   ► Like I was, I really, I spent like 15 minutes today doing a bunch of Googling trying to

00:14:04 ◼   ► work out what the history was and ended up being like, oh, they're just saying it's history

00:14:09 ◼   ► for them. This is good for them they want this you know do you think they are likely

00:14:15 ◼   ► to win any of these?

00:14:17 ◼   ► probably not but I think I think the best supporting actor has a shot and you know never

00:14:24 ◼   ► bet against Denzel Washington so maybe but but really for Apple it's a win to be in the

00:14:31 ◼   ► conversation that is they've they've won already.

00:14:33 ◼   ► yep they really want that. Has Denzel Washington ever won an Oscar?

00:14:36 ◼   ► - I think so, yeah.

00:14:38 ◼   ► Didn't he win for like Training Day or something?

00:14:40 ◼   ► A weird, weird, weird win, but I think he has.

00:14:45 ◼   ► This just in, he's won two Oscars, Training Day and Glory.

00:14:50 ◼   ► - Two Oscars, okay.

00:14:51 ◼   ► 'Cause the article noted him having 10 nominations,

00:14:56 ◼   ► which is the most nominated ever

00:15:00 ◼   ► and the most nominated black man in history.

00:15:03 ◼   ► - Yeah, Training Day was his best actor

00:15:06 ◼   ► and then of course way back in 1989,

00:15:08 ◼   ► he was best supporting actor for "Glory".

00:15:10 ◼   ► It's a really good movie.

00:15:12 ◼   ► But yeah, "Training Day", I just find that funny

00:15:14 ◼   ► 'cause "Training Day" is a movie that I'm like,

00:15:15 ◼   ► "Really, that's what he won best actor for?"

00:15:17 ◼   ► But he did.

00:15:18 ◼   ► - Yeah, 'cause I figured maybe if he hadn't won it,

00:15:21 ◼   ► that would maybe clinch him a win, you know?

00:15:24 ◼   ► Of like, he's gotta win it at some point.

00:15:27 ◼   ► But if he's already won it, I don't know.

00:15:28 ◼   ► But yeah, I'm sure Apple are very happy.

00:15:31 ◼   ► So I assume, unless the rules change,

00:15:33 ◼   ► that meant that these were in cinemas for a little bit?

00:15:36 ◼   ► Or did they change the rules?

00:15:38 ◼   ► - The rules are different than they used to be,

00:15:42 ◼   ► but not what they were last year.

00:15:43 ◼   ► I believe the Apple now does the thing

00:15:46 ◼   ► that Netflix also does where they do some amount

00:15:49 ◼   ► of screening that qualifies them.

00:15:50 ◼   ► And then they immediately put it

00:15:52 ◼   ► on their streaming service after that.

00:15:53 ◼   ► But yeah.

00:15:54 ◼   ► - Fair enough.

00:15:55 ◼   ► - They get, I'm sure they'll be very excited

00:15:56 ◼   ► if they win one, can you imagine?

00:15:59 ◼   ► Oh boy, there'll be a lot of apple.com stuff

00:16:01 ◼   ► if they win one of those.

00:16:03 ◼   ► - Oh yeah.

00:16:04 ◼   ► Well, I look forward to seeing what Tim Cook wears

00:16:07 ◼   ► on the red carpet.

00:16:08 ◼   ► - For your consideration.

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00:17:43 ◼   ► Rumour round up, Jason.

00:17:45 ◼   ► Got some stuff for you.

00:17:46 ◼   ► - Mm, yee-haw.

00:17:47 ◼   ► - Got some stuff.

00:17:48 ◼   ► - Right on the rumours.

00:17:49 ◼   ► - Welcome to rumour round up.

00:17:50 ◼   ► - That's right.

00:17:52 ◼   ► That's right, I've been fixin' to find some rumors.

00:17:55 ◼   ► - So prospect to Jason.

00:17:57 ◼   ► - At least that's what I hear.

00:17:59 ◼   ► - Oh man, this is good.

00:18:00 ◼   ► I've been wondering if we could have some kind of theming

00:18:03 ◼   ► around Rumor Roundup.

00:18:05 ◼   ► I've landed on it now. - This is it.

00:18:06 ◼   ► - It's a West.

00:18:07 ◼   ► - It's gonna be cowboy themed from now on.

00:18:10 ◼   ► - Mark Gorman is the fastest in the West

00:18:12 ◼   ► when it comes to rumors.

00:18:13 ◼   ► - Yeah, fastest draw out there that I've ever seen.

00:18:18 ◼   ► - But he's not in this one today.

00:18:19 ◼   ► (laughing)

00:18:20 ◼   ► He's sleeping, he's sleeping.

00:18:21 ◼   ► - No, this is the weird Mark Gurman,

00:18:23 ◼   ► "Hmm, not sure about all this stuff."

00:18:25 ◼   ► (laughs)

00:18:27 ◼   ► - DigiTimes is reporting that a MacBook Pro

00:18:29 ◼   ► of an M2 chip is likely to be unveiled in March.

00:18:33 ◼   ► Aside from the new chip, they expect this

00:18:35 ◼   ► to be a majorly unchanged 13-inch model,

00:18:38 ◼   ► which differs from what we were talking about,

00:18:39 ◼   ► about the fastest gun in the West,

00:18:41 ◼   ► Mark Gurman a couple of weeks ago,

00:18:42 ◼   ► who reported on the removal of the touch bar.

00:18:46 ◼   ► My question to you, Jason, would it be weird

00:18:49 ◼   ► to see the M2 chip in a MacBook Pro before the MacBook Air?

00:18:53 ◼   ► - Yes.

00:18:54 ◼   ► I was assuming, so okay, there's,

00:18:59 ◼   ► this report is very weird.

00:19:01 ◼   ► M2, I at least had been assuming

00:19:06 ◼   ► would come a little bit later

00:19:08 ◼   ► and that what we would get in the,

00:19:09 ◼   ► the M, in the MacBook Pro would be like an M1 Pro, right?

00:19:14 ◼   ► Now that those chips are out there,

00:19:18 ◼   ► that you could go back and sprinkle them

00:19:20 ◼   ► in some of the models that previously only had an M1

00:19:24 ◼   ► without making big changes.

00:19:25 ◼   ► This DigiTimes report suggests that,

00:19:27 ◼   ► no, what they're gonna do is just drop an M2

00:19:30 ◼   ► into the current M1 13-inch MacBook Pro

00:19:33 ◼   ► and not change anything else,

00:19:34 ◼   ► keep the touch bar and everything else,

00:19:35 ◼   ► which is not what Mark Gurman reported.

00:19:38 ◼   ► Although again, there could be two things happening here.

00:19:40 ◼   ► There could be an M2 MacBook Pro 13-inch,

00:19:44 ◼   ► and then later they remove the touch bar,

00:19:46 ◼   ► although it seems like why would they wanna

00:19:47 ◼   ► - Why would they do that? - Touch that product twice,

00:19:49 ◼   ► right, why would they do that?

00:19:51 ◼   ► So it does, this is a very strange report.

00:19:54 ◼   ► I am assuming that there's only gonna be one update

00:19:56 ◼   ► to the 13-inch MacBook Pro

00:19:58 ◼   ► and that there will be a chip change in it.

00:20:01 ◼   ► But having it be an M2, I mean, I don't know,

00:20:06 ◼   ► it's a MacBook Pro. - I mean, to me,

00:20:08 ◼   ► honestly, I feel like it's an M2.

00:20:10 ◼   ► Like when they do eventually do this,

00:20:12 ◼   ► it would be strange to me to put the M1 Pro

00:20:16 ◼   ► pro into this product which I think they're trying to keep cheap. That's true.

00:20:22 ◼   ► That's true. I mean and distance it from the 14. But it wouldn't have the good

00:20:28 ◼   ► display and it wouldn't have the ports and it wouldn't have well maybe it maybe

00:20:33 ◼   ► it has magsafe probably has magsafe right? I don't know I don't know I imagine this

00:20:38 ◼   ► be this computer being a MacBook Air with a touch bar which it kind of already

00:20:44 ◼   ► - Yeah, and they're gonna redefine the MacBook Air anyway, right?

00:20:47 ◼   ► - Yeah, and so my thinking is from a spec perspective,

00:20:51 ◼   ► that's kind of all it is, which would suggest to me that

00:20:55 ◼   ► whenever they do update this computer, it would get the same guts, basically,

00:20:59 ◼   ► as the MacBook Air, which I do think would get MagSafe, by the way,

00:21:04 ◼   ► but I don't think they're gonna add it to this MacBook Pro

00:21:06 ◼   ► because I don't think they're gonna change it unless all they do is just remove the touch bar.

00:21:09 ◼   ► But even then, I don't think I expect--

00:21:12 ◼   ► like maybe if they removed the touch bar,

00:21:14 ◼   ► they're already in there, maybe they would add MagSafe,

00:21:17 ◼   ► I don't know.

00:21:18 ◼   ► - While they're in there, that's how it works, right?

00:21:20 ◼   ► They open it up, doo, doo, doo, doo, doo,

00:21:22 ◼   ► move some things around.

00:21:23 ◼   ► - Look, the touch bar's super close

00:21:26 ◼   ► to where you could just stick a magnet,

00:21:27 ◼   ► so just like get some tweezers, put it in there.

00:21:30 ◼   ► - Stick, drop the magnets right in.

00:21:31 ◼   ► - So when I read this report, Jason, I was like,

00:21:33 ◼   ► this doesn't make any sense to me.

00:21:34 ◼   ► Like you're saying, why would you bring the MacBook Pro

00:21:37 ◼   ► and put an M2 chip in it?

00:21:38 ◼   ► But then our favorite, the Eurasian regulatory database

00:21:43 ◼   ► has been updated.

00:21:44 ◼   ► - I love a Eurasian regulatory database.

00:21:47 ◼   ► - It's been updated to register three new Macs

00:21:51 ◼   ► in the Eurasian regulatory database.

00:21:53 ◼   ► One of these is described as a laptop.

00:21:56 ◼   ► Now here's a quote by the way,

00:21:57 ◼   ► in case you're not familiar with this,

00:21:59 ◼   ► I mean, it kind of is in my mind a lot.

00:22:02 ◼   ► I see this reference 'cause a couple of weeks ago

00:22:04 ◼   ► it was updated with a new iPhone,

00:22:05 ◼   ► which is probably the SE and a new iPad,

00:22:08 ◼   ► which is probably the regular iPad

00:22:09 ◼   ► that we're all expecting to come in March.

00:22:12 ◼   ► But a 9to5 Mac-- - The iPad Air.

00:22:13 ◼   ► - Yes, the iPad Air, yes.

00:22:16 ◼   ► The 9to5 Mac had a good explainer here,

00:22:19 ◼   ► just in case you need a refresher.

00:22:21 ◼   ► Apple must register any devices

00:22:23 ◼   ► that rely on encryption technologies

00:22:25 ◼   ► with the Eurasian Economic Commission,

00:22:28 ◼   ► and hence this database has become a very strong indicator

00:22:31 ◼   ► of Apple's short-term roadmaps in recent years.

00:22:33 ◼   ► I had forgotten why they needed to do this.

00:22:35 ◼   ► I thought it was something about radio waves, you know,

00:22:38 ◼   ► like every time a new device is coming online.

00:22:41 ◼   ► - The FCC has to do that.

00:22:43 ◼   ► - Yeah, but it's not the FCC.

00:22:44 ◼   ► It's not about that.

00:22:45 ◼   ► It's not what the FCC does.

00:22:46 ◼   ► This is about encryption, fair enough.

00:22:48 ◼   ► So.

00:22:49 ◼   ► - Also, I wanna just point out the short-term roadmap

00:22:52 ◼   ► is a very fun idea.

00:22:54 ◼   ► It's like, that's like saying I have a map here

00:22:57 ◼   ► of how to get from here to around the corner.

00:23:00 ◼   ► Like it's right, like it's.

00:23:01 ◼   ► - It's a short-term roadmap.

00:23:02 ◼   ► - Short-term roadmap, you just drive down the road.

00:23:04 ◼   ► - It's like, you know, when you just like, you know,

00:23:06 ◼   ► it's one of the things, you know the way to work,

00:23:09 ◼   ► but you just want to know the traffic, you know?

00:23:11 ◼   ► That's kind of a short-term roadmap.

00:23:12 ◼   ► - That's a short-term roadmap, thank you.

00:23:13 ◼   ► Okay, makes perfect sense now.

00:23:15 ◼   ► - So I was surprised here because they're saying

00:23:20 ◼   ► one of them is a laptop.

00:23:21 ◼   ► Now, three Macs is a lot of Macs, right?

00:23:24 ◼   ► Now, however, if we're going to get Mac Mini and iMac Pro,

00:23:27 ◼   ► which we're hoping for, but we're not sure about, maybe,

00:23:29 ◼   ► a laptop?

00:23:30 ◼   ► Now, I'm not expecting that MacBook Air anytime soon.

00:23:33 ◼   ► that feels like a much later in the year product.

00:23:36 ◼   ► So are we gonna get this MacBook Pro with an M2 chip?

00:23:39 ◼   ► I don't know.

00:23:40 ◼   ► - Okay, so what I find very weird here

00:23:43 ◼   ► is we've gotten some reports

00:23:46 ◼   ► that Mark Gurman seems pretty certain about,

00:23:49 ◼   ► and now we get these reports that contradict.

00:23:52 ◼   ► And I like Mark Gurman's reports,

00:23:54 ◼   ► I think that they're generally quite accurate.

00:23:57 ◼   ► Having this be the MacBook Air and a big iMac,

00:24:02 ◼   ► iMac and a Pro Mac Mini, that's actually the scenario that makes the most sense if you

00:24:13 ◼   ► don't look at any of the reports.

00:24:16 ◼   ► The problem is that Mark Gurman's like, "Mm-mm, that's not what's happening."

00:24:19 ◼   ► So I don't know.

00:24:22 ◼   ► Like, I mean, and also we've talked about the idea that the big iMac is just a mystery

00:24:28 ◼   ► right now.

00:24:29 ◼   ► Like, is that what this is?

00:24:30 ◼   ► Is it Pro Mac Mini, update to the MacBook Pro,

00:24:34 ◼   ► and the big iMac?

00:24:35 ◼   ► Is that what they're rolling out here?

00:24:36 ◼   ► - What I'll say about the iMac Pro is,

00:24:40 ◼   ► I think Mark Gurman seems to have been very unsure

00:24:44 ◼   ► about that product for a while.

00:24:46 ◼   ► - For a while.

00:24:47 ◼   ► - He has said it's coming this year,

00:24:50 ◼   ► but hasn't really given any kind of window on that.

00:24:53 ◼   ► - No, it seems like it's a blind spot for him,

00:24:55 ◼   ► that he does not have good information on it.

00:24:57 ◼   ► And it makes me wonder if he's got,

00:24:59 ◼   ► whether he's had a source that is no longer,

00:25:02 ◼   ► does no longer have the vision into it

00:25:04 ◼   ► or what is going on here,

00:25:05 ◼   ► that maybe Mark Gurman doesn't have as clear a vision

00:25:08 ◼   ► into what these products are

00:25:10 ◼   ► as he maybe felt he did

00:25:13 ◼   ► when they were in the process last year.

00:25:15 ◼   ► And so it's all unclear.

00:25:17 ◼   ► - 'Cause I agree completely with what you just said,

00:25:19 ◼   ► is that from a logical perspective,

00:25:21 ◼   ► we would expect that product now.

00:25:24 ◼   ► - Right.

00:25:25 ◼   ► If you are thinking about you have 10 months left

00:25:30 ◼   ► to do this, the whole product line,

00:25:33 ◼   ► it makes a lot of sense to have an iMac Pro

00:25:38 ◼   ► with the chips you just announced a few months ago,

00:25:41 ◼   ► which are clearly gonna be in that product,

00:25:43 ◼   ► to occur now if all logic would assume

00:25:47 ◼   ► that if there's gonna be a Mac Pro,

00:25:48 ◼   ► that is announced in June.

00:25:51 ◼   ► Probably won't ship until way later, but.

00:25:53 ◼   ► And let me, you know, I know you are on the like M2

00:25:57 ◼   ► potential train for that 13 inch model,

00:25:59 ◼   ► but I could make an argument that this event

00:26:03 ◼   ► is going to be the end of the M1 generation.

00:26:07 ◼   ► And what we're going to get is three Macs

00:26:11 ◼   ► that use M1 and M1 Pro and M1 Macs.

00:26:16 ◼   ► And they are that 13 inch MacBook Pro

00:26:21 ◼   ► and the 27-inch iMac or whatever size it is,

00:26:24 ◼   ► large iMac and the Mac Mini.

00:26:27 ◼   ► - What about the Mac Pro?

00:26:29 ◼   ► - Well, because the Mac Pro is gonna have

00:26:32 ◼   ► the quad thing, right?

00:26:33 ◼   ► Mac Pro is a whole different deal.

00:26:35 ◼   ► - You don't think that's gonna be called M1 something?

00:26:38 ◼   ► - Well, okay.

00:26:39 ◼   ► Well, I mean, I don't know, but if it is,

00:26:41 ◼   ► it's gonna be like M1 quad or something.

00:26:45 ◼   ► So don't get hung up on the end of the M1 generation

00:26:47 ◼   ► 'cause I think the Mac Pro is a completely different beast

00:26:49 ◼   ► and let's just put it aside for now.

00:26:51 ◼   ► - Well, just, I don't want to, just real quick,

00:26:53 ◼   ► before we put it aside, I did suggest this a while ago

00:26:55 ◼   ► and I still think it could be possible

00:26:57 ◼   ► that the Mac Pro actually gets an M2 Max.

00:26:59 ◼   ► That's what it gets, M2 Max and M2 Pro,

00:27:02 ◼   ► because it's way late in the year.

00:27:03 ◼   ► But anyway, carry on.

00:27:04 ◼   ► - Yeah, I don't know, I don't know.

00:27:06 ◼   ► But if we leave that aside,

00:27:08 ◼   ► what I'm trying to get at here is maybe they've decided

00:27:11 ◼   ► to have this thing come in waves.

00:27:12 ◼   ► And what the last thing they wanna do is put this new,

00:27:15 ◼   ► now that they've got the Max and Pro chip announced,

00:27:18 ◼   ► that it fits in some of their high-end products.

00:27:21 ◼   ► So fit it in, right?

00:27:23 ◼   ► And that they want it available in the iMac.

00:27:26 ◼   ► They obviously want it available in a Mac mini

00:27:29 ◼   ► because they've held that slot open

00:27:31 ◼   ► and kept the high-end Intel Mac mini available.

00:27:34 ◼   ► And I think it actually kind of makes sense

00:27:37 ◼   ► to make it an option in the 13-inch MacBook Pro,

00:27:41 ◼   ► but we can debate that.

00:27:42 ◼   ► That's a weird product

00:27:43 ◼   ► and I don't know what they're doing there.

00:27:44 ◼   ► So we could see that.

00:27:47 ◼   ► maybe it's just an M1, maybe it's an M2,

00:27:50 ◼   ► but I'm like, I'm thinking,

00:27:52 ◼   ► what if this is an M1 crescendo, right?

00:27:56 ◼   ► Where it's like, now the M1 Pro and Macs

00:27:58 ◼   ► are in other systems too.

00:27:59 ◼   ► Remember that from the MacBook Pro, wasn't that great?

00:28:02 ◼   ► Well, now here it is in these systems, yay.

00:28:05 ◼   ► And then they move on.

00:28:06 ◼   ► And then the next thing is like,

00:28:08 ◼   ► now we're gonna talk about M2

00:28:10 ◼   ► and maybe that is a June kind of thing.

00:28:12 ◼   ► So that's my, you know, that's my best shot,

00:28:16 ◼   ► at least right now.

00:28:17 ◼   ► I don't know if it will withstand a huge amount of scrutiny

00:28:20 ◼   ► 'cause I agree the 13 inch MacBook Pro

00:28:22 ◼   ► is kind of just completely baffling to me,

00:28:25 ◼   ► but the fact that there are products

00:28:28 ◼   ► that want the Pro or Max chips that are as yet unimproved,

00:28:33 ◼   ► that would seem to be the most logical next step,

00:28:37 ◼   ► not rolling out an M2,

00:28:39 ◼   ► but actually rolling out other computers

00:28:42 ◼   ► that use M1 Pro and M1 Max.

00:28:44 ◼   ► References to Reality OS have appeared in Apple's

00:28:48 ◼   ► open source code and App Store upload logs.

00:28:52 ◼   ► What do you think about this name?

00:28:54 ◼   ► Obviously this would be around a headset in

00:28:58 ◼   ► Fusoid of Imagine. - I believe this name

00:28:59 ◼   ► has been reported before, so this was more like

00:29:01 ◼   ► confirmation of the name's existence.

00:29:04 ◼   ► You know, it's a name for an OS project

00:29:07 ◼   ► that's probably been going on for some time,

00:29:09 ◼   ► and I don't think they pick OS project names,

00:29:13 ◼   ► especially for pre-release versions of an OS

00:29:16 ◼   ► with any personally, I don't think it has any clues

00:29:20 ◼   ► about what the actual product names are.

00:29:22 ◼   ► I've seen several people say, "Oh, well, that's it.

00:29:24 ◼   ► The product's gonna be called Apple reality."

00:29:26 ◼   ► I don't think this is evidence of that

00:29:28 ◼   ► and I don't think that's gonna be the product name,

00:29:30 ◼   ► but it is another sign that we're getting a lot closer

00:29:34 ◼   ► to Apple making a VR/AR announcement.

00:29:38 ◼   ► - Let me tell you right now,

00:29:40 ◼   ► The name reality with Apple just sounds way too dystopian to me.

00:29:46 ◼   ► I know it's it's somebody I saw said maybe this is like an homage to the reality distortion field.

00:29:53 ◼   ► I'm like, wow, why would they do that?

00:29:57 ◼   ► Why would you do that?

00:29:58 ◼   ► Do you think Apple would ever own up to reality distortion as their business?

00:30:03 ◼   ► Like, come on.

00:30:04 ◼   ► No, I really don't like it.

00:30:06 ◼   ► Because look, ultimately we don't really think of AR and VR too much as like augmented reality,

00:30:15 ◼   ► virtual reality.

00:30:16 ◼   ► Like we don't, I know that's what they mean, but at a certain point AR and VR just become

00:30:20 ◼   ► what we call these things and we know what that means.

00:30:23 ◼   ► Reality as a word is kind of devoid from it.

00:30:26 ◼   ► But to me the idea of Apple making something called Apple reality, it just sounds really

00:30:32 ◼   ► wrong.

00:30:33 ◼   ► I agree.

00:30:34 ◼   ► I don't like reality OS.

00:30:36 ◼   ► Like it doesn't work for me.

00:30:40 ◼   ► I don't know what-

00:30:41 ◼   ► - Well that's 'cause you don't have any hardware

00:30:42 ◼   ► to run it on yet.

00:30:43 ◼   ► - Oh yeah, well it's just, it's not booting

00:30:44 ◼   ► and I don't know what the issue is.

00:30:46 ◼   ► But yeah, I don't particularly like it, but I-

00:30:50 ◼   ► - Feels like a code name to me.

00:30:52 ◼   ► Not sure it's ever gonna be a marketing name.

00:30:55 ◼   ► It's gonna be one of those things.

00:30:57 ◼   ► My guess is it's gonna be one of those things

00:30:59 ◼   ► that when they release our OS or Vision OS

00:31:03 ◼   ► or the OS that runs the product,

00:31:07 ◼   ► everybody's gonna like look in the source and be like,

00:31:09 ◼   ► or look in the Xcode downloads and be like,

00:31:12 ◼   ► "Teehee, I found reality OS,"

00:31:14 ◼   ► or it's referred to internally as ROS or whatever,

00:31:18 ◼   ► but outside it has no name.

00:31:21 ◼   ► That may be the case, at least initially,

00:31:23 ◼   ► or they may give it branding.

00:31:25 ◼   ► Just because they're working on this in-house

00:31:27 ◼   ► doesn't mean that the branding

00:31:28 ◼   ► that ultimately is gonna live on this thing

00:31:29 ◼   ► is reality OS anyway.

00:31:31 ◼   ► And if it does, I'm not sure people will care so much about it.

00:31:34 ◼   ► Find a different place.

00:31:35 ◼   ► If the product has a different name, then it's not going to matter so much anyway.

00:31:40 ◼   ► Branding around this is going to be difficult, I think, for them.

00:31:45 ◼   ► I think this is going to be a particularly tricky branding exercise that I'm really intrigued

00:31:51 ◼   ► to see what they land on for both product names and the operating system.

00:32:01 ◼   ► Because we all know whatever this product is, is not what they want.

00:32:06 ◼   ► Right, well it's the first, it's step one in a long process to get what they want.

00:32:12 ◼   ► The hardware they really want to make, right?

00:32:13 ◼   ► Which is stuff you can wear outside and this is not going to be that.

00:32:17 ◼   ► So like, they're probably not going to call this like Apple glasses, which is like, you

00:32:24 ◼   ► know, like Apple watch, Apple glasses, you know, like easier.

00:32:26 ◼   ► You can just see that.

00:32:28 ◼   ► But it would be weird to call this that because to imagine this product evolving into that

00:32:34 ◼   ► seems odd to me.

00:32:36 ◼   ► Like and honestly they will probably, I expect, still make a home version.

00:32:42 ◼   ► Like you have your iPhone and your computer, like your Mac.

00:32:46 ◼   ► I could imagine there always being these two products because AR and VR, I think for a

00:32:53 ◼   ► a very long time, probably always, will have this like, there are distinct use cases for

00:32:58 ◼   ► both that doesn't really match up. I think we've had this conversation before in the

00:33:04 ◼   ► way of like, you know, power and blah, blah, blah, blah. So I don't know. So it was, it's

00:33:08 ◼   ► going to be intriguing to me to see what this product is called. I think I've seen, I think

00:33:14 ◼   ► you've mentioned this too. Uh, I think you said this to me in Slack, Apple vision as

00:33:20 ◼   ► which I think is a reference to a previous thing, right?

00:33:23 ◼   ► - Well, it's a product that previously existed from Apple.

00:33:27 ◼   ► So they've got some amount of, I guess,

00:33:29 ◼   ► ownership of that namespace, but also I like that name.

00:33:33 ◼   ► I think it works for them.

00:33:34 ◼   ► I think it is-

00:33:35 ◼   ► - It's better than reality, that's for sure.

00:33:37 ◼   ► - It is definitive and yet sort of meaningless

00:33:41 ◼   ► in a way that allows them to bend it

00:33:43 ◼   ► where they want it to go.

00:33:45 ◼   ► It is talking about a vision and visionary

00:33:48 ◼   ► and all the things that go around that

00:33:50 ◼   ► are much more in line with kind of the language that Apple wants to use. I think, whereas reality

00:33:55 ◼   ► is super weird. So I'm at this point in the, strongly in the Apple Vision camp, I think Apple

00:34:04 ◼   ► Vision is a name that they could put out there and apply it to a VR headset and apply it to

00:34:10 ◼   ► a set of glasses down the road. And it's all just part of Apple Vision. That is not, I mean,

00:34:17 ◼   ► I don't know and I'm prepared to have people suggest names that are better but I think

00:34:23 ◼   ► Apple Vision right now is by far the best that I've heard.

00:34:28 ◼   ► I have a breaking news tweet for you.

00:34:30 ◼   ► Okay.

00:34:31 ◼   ► The fastest gunslinger on the list.

00:34:33 ◼   ► Hold on everybody!

00:34:35 ◼   ► The rumor roundup is back!

00:34:38 ◼   ► Rootin Tootin Mark Gurman says,

00:34:41 ◼   ► As I wrote, new Macs incoming at Apple's March 8th event.

00:34:45 ◼   ► Also hearing there will be multiple new Mac minis this year assuming regular and pro,

00:34:50 ◼   ► plus the new MacBook Pro between new Air and the 14".

00:34:54 ◼   ► Also in the works, iMac Pro, M2 24" iMac, new Mac Pro.

00:34:59 ◼   ► I don't think Mac knows what's coming.

00:35:02 ◼   ► Right? That's just like a lot of information.

00:35:06 ◼   ► There kind of isn't really any pinning on this.

00:35:08 ◼   ► -Yeah, that's not breaking news.

00:35:10 ◼   ► That's Mark restating what he's got reported,

00:35:14 ◼   ► but it doesn't give us new information.

00:35:16 ◼   ► -It was more I wanted to make sure this was in the show

00:35:19 ◼   ► because we explicitly said

00:35:20 ◼   ► that he didn't say anything about it.

00:35:22 ◼   ► Well, he said something, but what he said was nothing new.

00:35:25 ◼   ► -Yeah, so he has his prior reports,

00:35:26 ◼   ► and now he's linked to the MacRumors story

00:35:29 ◼   ► about the regulatory stuff and said, "Let me point you

00:35:35 ◼   ► to my prior report in which I mentioned --"

00:35:37 ◼   ► -I think he knows there's Max but doesn't know which Max.

00:35:41 ◼   ► That's what it sounds like to me.

00:35:42 ◼   ► -Yeah, 'cause he keeps talking about this year, right?

00:35:44 ◼   ► And so he doesn't know all the details of when.

00:35:46 ◼   ► I also assume that if this March 8th event

00:35:48 ◼   ► really does happen, that we'll probably,

00:35:50 ◼   ► in the next few weeks, Mark Gurman will probably

00:35:52 ◼   ► get a better idea of what's at that event.

00:35:54 ◼   ► But right now, he doesn't seem to know, and we don't know,

00:35:56 ◼   ► and it's just floating out there.

00:35:59 ◼   ► So, once again, he's the sheriff, Mark Gurman.

00:36:04 ◼   ► He's the sheriff of the rumor roundup.

00:36:07 ◼   ► - All right partner, saddle up.

00:36:09 ◼   ► We're leaving the rumor roundup now.

00:36:11 ◼   ► - All right, see you next time buckaroos.

00:36:14 ◼   ► - Over the last few months,

00:36:16 ◼   ► there have been plenty of stories of people

00:36:18 ◼   ► either being concerned about the possibility

00:36:20 ◼   ► of air tags being abused,

00:36:22 ◼   ► or actual stories of people who have been unknowingly

00:36:25 ◼   ► and or unwantedly tracked with an air tag.

00:36:28 ◼   ► So now Apple has published a statement about this

00:36:31 ◼   ► detailing kind of what has happened,

00:36:34 ◼   ► what they are going to do about it in the immediate,

00:36:37 ◼   ► and also what some stuff that they are working on

00:36:40 ◼   ► to try and address this situation.

00:36:43 ◼   ► So let me go through some of these things

00:36:45 ◼   ► we've talked about.

00:36:46 ◼   ► So Apple in their statement condemned the misuse, of course,

00:36:50 ◼   ► and state that they're working with law enforcement agencies

00:36:53 ◼   ► to identify people that are doing this.

00:36:55 ◼   ► - Step one is, 'cause this is a weird document, right?

00:36:58 ◼   ► It is announcement and damage control and spin

00:37:02 ◼   ► and a whole bunch of things going on together.

00:37:04 ◼   ► The first, I like the fact that step one is

00:37:08 ◼   ► remind people it's illegal.

00:37:10 ◼   ► - Yep, and we don't think people should do this.

00:37:13 ◼   ► - Say that they're going to add more warnings

00:37:16 ◼   ► to the device to remind people that it's illegal

00:37:19 ◼   ► and you shouldn't do it.

00:37:21 ◼   ► And remind people who might be thinking

00:37:24 ◼   ► of using their products in this way

00:37:26 ◼   ► that your Apple ID is tied to it

00:37:29 ◼   ► and Apple is happy to work with law enforcement

00:37:32 ◼   ► to discover the identities of the people

00:37:34 ◼   ► who are leaving these unwanted trackers.

00:37:37 ◼   ► So it's the sort of a three-pronged approach of,

00:37:40 ◼   ► don't do this, it's bad, and we know who you are.

00:37:44 ◼   ► - So Apple have kind of committed

00:37:47 ◼   ► on two strands of working here.

00:37:49 ◼   ► So one is to make AirTags and Find My Service

00:37:52 ◼   ► better for receiving unwanted alerts.

00:37:55 ◼   ► So like if I was to borrow Jason's keys,

00:37:58 ◼   ► it would be bugged, the AirTag's gonna bug me, right?

00:38:01 ◼   ► So they're trying to make that part of it better.

00:38:03 ◼   ► And also working on better ways to alert people

00:38:06 ◼   ► in situations of misuse.

00:38:08 ◼   ► So this is gonna be for his combination stuff.

00:38:09 ◼   ► As Jason mentioned, new warnings during set up

00:38:13 ◼   ► that using an AirTag maliciously is a crime,

00:38:15 ◼   ► which is like, that feels like a legal thing.

00:38:17 ◼   ► Like, I just like a weird thing.

00:38:19 ◼   ► Like, oh, I didn't know, you know?

00:38:21 ◼   ► - It's intimidation, right?

00:38:22 ◼   ► It's saying, you know, you do not do this,

00:38:25 ◼   ► you know, psychologically somebody who's committed to it

00:38:28 ◼   ► is gonna do it, but like it is an attempt

00:38:32 ◼   ► to put it in there that it's very clear

00:38:34 ◼   ► that Apple warned them.

00:38:36 ◼   ► And then if somebody goes, "Oh, I didn't know,"

00:38:38 ◼   ► that people can say, "Actually, it put up this dialogue box

00:38:43 ◼   ► "and you saw it."

00:38:46 ◼   ► - And they've also found on a gonna be addressing a bug,

00:38:49 ◼   ► which I hadn't seen or heard much about,

00:38:51 ◼   ► This hasn't happened to me.

00:38:52 ◼   ► But apparently a lot of people have been getting warnings

00:38:55 ◼   ► of an unknown accessory detected.

00:38:58 ◼   ► Like this is like a thing that your phone is popping up

00:39:00 ◼   ► and saying like there is an unknown accessory detected

00:39:03 ◼   ► and it's with you.

00:39:04 ◼   ► Apparently this is AirPods causing this majorly.

00:39:07 ◼   ► And they are going to change the alert to say that

00:39:10 ◼   ► there are AirPods detected.

00:39:12 ◼   ► - Yeah, this sounds like literally it's just a bug,

00:39:14 ◼   ► but that people were using it,

00:39:16 ◼   ► throwing it in the barrel

00:39:17 ◼   ► with all of this AirTag related stuff.

00:39:19 ◼   ► and it's actually just a bug that Apple did not,

00:39:21 ◼   ► was not properly identifying that it was AirPods.

00:39:24 ◼   ► - 'Cause I know I've seen some stories from people

00:39:27 ◼   ► that were like, I've got this warning,

00:39:29 ◼   ► or like I've seen these like viral tweets,

00:39:30 ◼   ► and I don't know what this is,

00:39:32 ◼   ► but it turns out it was probably AirPods.

00:39:34 ◼   ► But with the news about AirTags being an issue, right,

00:39:38 ◼   ► people were worried that like,

00:39:40 ◼   ► has someone put an AirTag on me

00:39:42 ◼   ► when it seems to have been some kind of bug?

00:39:45 ◼   ► I mean, of course, that could have happened,

00:39:46 ◼   ► but what they're saying is, you know,

00:39:48 ◼   ► it could be something else. They also, what I really appreciated of this is they laid

00:39:52 ◼   ► out a selection of things which they have not announced, they are not features, but

00:39:57 ◼   ► they're trying to see if they can make them work. And I think this is the perfect way

00:40:00 ◼   ► for them to try and work on this, because it's not Apple's way, right, to be like, we're

00:40:04 ◼   ► going to try a bunch of stuff, because they do not commit to any of these things definitely

00:40:08 ◼   ► happening because they might not be able to get it to work in some cases, but they're

00:40:11 ◼   ► working on them and I appreciate that. So they're investigating precision finding. So

00:40:17 ◼   ► So this would allow a recipient of the unwanted tracking alert,

00:40:22 ◼   ► so like something pops up and it's like,

00:40:24 ◼   ► "Hey, an AirTag is with you,"

00:40:27 ◼   ► to be able to then use the precision finding feature

00:40:30 ◼   ► as if it was your AirTag to be able to locate it.

00:40:34 ◼   ► So I think that's really clever, right?

00:40:35 ◼   ► Because if it's my AirTag, I can use the --

00:40:38 ◼   ► if you've got a modern phone with the U1 chip --

00:40:40 ◼   ► the precision tracking to find out exactly where it is.

00:40:44 ◼   ► So they would then be allowing this for --

00:40:46 ◼   ► If you've got an AirTag that's with you, that's not yours,

00:40:48 ◼   ► it's an unwanted one, you'd then be able to actually find it.

00:40:51 ◼   ► Like, where is it?

00:40:52 ◼   ► Like, is it in my bag?

00:40:52 ◼   ► Like, what's going on?

00:40:55 ◼   ► When an AirTag would start making its alert noise when

00:40:58 ◼   ► it detected movements-- you know,

00:41:00 ◼   ► like you've got an AirTag and it's with you,

00:41:01 ◼   ► and eventually it's going to start bleeping.

00:41:03 ◼   ► I don't remember the time period,

00:41:04 ◼   ► but there's like a time period where if it's with you,

00:41:07 ◼   ► it starts making an audible noise, right?

00:41:10 ◼   ► When it does that, an alert will also appear on nearby iPhones

00:41:13 ◼   ► you can take action on in case the speaker's been tampered with or something. They're working

00:41:19 ◼   ► on making the system better in general at alerting people sooner to an unwanted device

00:41:24 ◼   ► with them and looking at tweaking the sound that an AirTag makes to make it more recognisable,

00:41:29 ◼   ► making the sound louder.

00:41:31 ◼   ► Right. I mean, this is a tricky subject, right? Like, I think there's a lot of really interesting

00:41:38 ◼   ► debate about this because it is a genuine concern, but I also see a lot of people saying

00:41:42 ◼   ► that like, people that are going to do this are going to find a way to do this.

00:41:46 ◼   ► But then there's also other genuine arguments to emphasize like, well, you shouldn't make

00:41:49 ◼   ► it easier.

00:41:50 ◼   ► So this is a complicated product.

00:41:52 ◼   ► Yeah.

00:41:53 ◼   ► And, and I think it is, uh, it's the case where like tracking is going to happen.

00:42:03 ◼   ► Like we have tracking technology in a lot of different places.

00:42:07 ◼   ► Apples has a lot of advantages because of how they built the Find My network.

00:42:11 ◼   ► There are other ways to do it.

00:42:12 ◼   ► So what Apple is really trying to do here is say,

00:42:14 ◼   ► look, we are going to do everything we can to make it

00:42:17 ◼   ► harder for people to use this as a tracking device

00:42:20 ◼   ► because that's not what it's meant for.

00:42:22 ◼   ► And in the long run, I wonder how well AirTags will sell

00:42:27 ◼   ► and if Apple decides that it's not worth it.

00:42:31 ◼   ► It doesn't mean that there aren't,

00:42:33 ◼   ► I imagine that this Find My technology

00:42:34 ◼   ► is going to go in all sorts of Apple products.

00:42:39 ◼   ► And the truth is that if you've got an AirPods case that'll do Find My Network or any other

00:42:46 ◼   ► Apple device that does Find My Network, you could use it as a tracker too. In the long

00:42:51 ◼   ► run, the trackers are out there and then there are the tiles of the world and other things

00:42:55 ◼   ► like that. The issue here is whether Apple participates or not that this is going to

00:43:02 ◼   ► happen, but what Apple is trying to do, and I also think it's not fair. A few people have

00:43:07 ◼   ► have said, you know, Apple didn't anticipate this.

00:43:09 ◼   ► It's like, well, if you look at how AirTags are built,

00:43:10 ◼   ► Apple did anticipate this.

00:43:12 ◼   ► They just didn't anticipate it enough.

00:43:14 ◼   ► They didn't anticipate all of the nuances of it.

00:43:17 ◼   ► - They always anticipated it

00:43:19 ◼   ► because they added some of these features in,

00:43:20 ◼   ► but they didn't go far enough.

00:43:23 ◼   ► - They did not go far enough.

00:43:24 ◼   ► And I wonder if that was a push and pull of like,

00:43:27 ◼   ► we need to ship it.

00:43:31 ◼   ► I honestly wonder now if the AirTag stuff,

00:43:34 ◼   ► the reason the AirTags got delayed as long as they did

00:43:36 ◼   ► is because at some point, somebody at Apple said,

00:43:40 ◼   ► you can't release this without a whole structure

00:43:44 ◼   ► of people misusing this.

00:43:48 ◼   ► And I wonder if that was one of the reasons

00:43:50 ◼   ► they had to kind of go back to the drawing board

00:43:52 ◼   ► a little bit, but they didn't,

00:43:53 ◼   ► when what they came out with was obviously

00:43:56 ◼   ► intended to prevent this,

00:43:58 ◼   ► but didn't really anticipate all of the issues with it.

00:44:02 ◼   ► And now they seem to be trying to make it better.

00:44:04 ◼   ► So, you know, so this thing that they posted is a fascinating combination of sort of like

00:44:09 ◼   ► warnings and expressions of care and saying that they will change some of the things for it to be

00:44:15 ◼   ► better, all just kind of rolled into one. And it happened about the same time that the, what New

00:44:22 ◼   ► York Times did a story about a writer having her husband walk around or go around Manhattan with a

00:44:30 ◼   ► a bunch of trackers, including an AirTag. So like these stories will continue to happen.

00:44:36 ◼   ► Yeah it's a kind of a, I find the AirTags and this whole thing a really fascinating

00:44:42 ◼   ► kind of thought experiment about the promise and danger of technology. Because

00:44:50 ◼   ► I love AirTags for me. Excellent product. I have a bunch of them. They're really simple and they

00:44:58 ◼   ► and they give me peace of mind,

00:44:59 ◼   ► but it can do the exact opposite.

00:45:04 ◼   ► - Yeah.

00:45:04 ◼   ► - That because they're so simple,

00:45:06 ◼   ► because they work so well,

00:45:07 ◼   ► they could be a horror for people in different situations.

00:45:11 ◼   ► And I don't know if there's been something so simple

00:45:16 ◼   ► that has been able to have this argument on both sides

00:45:19 ◼   ► in like a really long time.

00:45:20 ◼   ► 'Cause you can make that argument about like smartphones,

00:45:22 ◼   ► but it's a much more complicated product

00:45:24 ◼   ► than like the good and bad of it.

00:45:26 ◼   ► - This is a featureless blob.

00:45:28 ◼   ► - Yeah, it is a tiny piece of plastic

00:45:30 ◼   ► with a little bit of metal and a battery inside of it.

00:45:32 ◼   ► Right?

00:45:33 ◼   ► And like, so Matt in the Discord has mentioned

00:45:36 ◼   ► that like Apple's done more than their competitors at this,

00:45:39 ◼   ► which I understand.

00:45:41 ◼   ► The thing about that is that they have to,

00:45:43 ◼   ► because they're Apple, right?

00:45:45 ◼   ► They have to go further for multiple reasons.

00:45:47 ◼   ► One, because they need,

00:45:48 ◼   ► one, because this is a much better product

00:45:52 ◼   ► in its good and bad ways than any other company

00:45:55 ◼   ► has been able to produce, right?

00:45:56 ◼   ► because the AirTags tap into literally every iPhone

00:46:00 ◼   ► as their way of having location tracking, right?

00:46:03 ◼   ► So their tracking is way better than Tile,

00:46:07 ◼   ► than Chipolo, I think is the name of another company.

00:46:11 ◼   ► - I think Chipolo uses Find My though.

00:46:13 ◼   ► Don't they? - They do now.

00:46:14 ◼   ► - They do now, but they didn't before.

00:46:16 ◼   ► - Anyway, you know,

00:46:17 ◼   ► like all of these companies doing this stuff.

00:46:19 ◼   ► - But Apple did it better.

00:46:20 ◼   ► See, that's the thing, right?

00:46:21 ◼   ► It's like these technologies exist already,

00:46:24 ◼   ► but then Apple was like,

00:46:25 ◼   ► we're gonna make it really good.

00:46:26 ◼   ► But like when you make it really good,

00:46:28 ◼   ► - You make it really good.

00:46:29 ◼   ► - The New York Times article points out,

00:46:31 ◼   ► it's like, you know, tile, to find a tile,

00:46:35 ◼   ► you have to find, somebody with the tile app on

00:46:39 ◼   ► has to like walk past it.

00:46:41 ◼   ► Whereas to find a Find My device,

00:46:43 ◼   ► it just needs to be near an iPhone.

00:46:45 ◼   ► And guess what?

00:46:46 ◼   ► They're everywhere.

00:46:47 ◼   ► - Literally everywhere.

00:46:48 ◼   ► - And so it totally changes the equation.

00:46:50 ◼   ► It's also true that like there are GPS trackers.

00:46:52 ◼   ► Like what Apple has done is lower the barrier to this

00:46:55 ◼   ► because you could literally, if you were a stalker,

00:46:58 ◼   ► you could get a phone and stick it somewhere

00:47:02 ◼   ► and do fine mine, right?

00:47:05 ◼   ► You could get a GPS tracker and stick it somewhere

00:47:08 ◼   ► and see where that person is going.

00:47:12 ◼   ► Like there are lots of other products that do this.

00:47:14 ◼   ► What Apple has done is lower the barrier.

00:47:17 ◼   ► And although that is good in an Apple-y sense,

00:47:20 ◼   ► it is also bad in the sense that it becomes,

00:47:23 ◼   ► it's so easy that it's, you know,

00:47:25 ◼   ► it becomes the stalker's choice.

00:47:27 ◼   ► And that's the, that's the,

00:47:28 ◼   ► I think you were right.

00:47:30 ◼   ► This is in some ways a really simple,

00:47:35 ◼   ► I mean, it's not a simple issue,

00:47:37 ◼   ► but it's a simple product that shows you all

00:47:41 ◼   ► of the ramifications of technology in our society.

00:47:46 ◼   ► - From a PR perspective,

00:47:48 ◼   ► people like to write these stories about Apple, right?

00:47:50 ◼   ► - Of course.

00:47:51 ◼   ► - So that's also going to open them up,

00:47:53 ◼   ► which is honestly one of the,

00:47:56 ◼   ► I'm sure one of the major reasons why

00:47:58 ◼   ► if they did hold onto it was for that reason,

00:48:00 ◼   ► of like, what is the public perception

00:48:02 ◼   ► of this product gonna be?

00:48:03 ◼   ► Like, even if we've already gone further than anybody else,

00:48:07 ◼   ► do we need to continue to go further

00:48:09 ◼   ► before we can release this?

00:48:10 ◼   ► Because all it needs is one bad story,

00:48:14 ◼   ► and everyone's gonna wanna write that story.

00:48:16 ◼   ► So I'm happy to see that they're going further.

00:48:20 ◼   ► I would say selfishly for me,

00:48:22 ◼   ► 'cause I've seen people saying,

00:48:23 ◼   ► "Oh, they just have to turn off

00:48:24 ◼   ► "the Find My Network part of this."

00:48:27 ◼   ► It was like the only way to get around this,

00:48:28 ◼   ► but then it just renders the product completely useless.

00:48:31 ◼   ► So selfishly for me,

00:48:32 ◼   ► I'm happy that they haven't taken away

00:48:35 ◼   ► a bunch of the usefulness of this product.

00:48:38 ◼   ► But I do genuinely hope that they will go far enough

00:48:43 ◼   ► in doing absolutely everything that they can

00:48:46 ◼   ► to remove as many of the bad parts that they realistically can

00:48:51 ◼   ► if they're gonna continue this product.

00:48:53 ◼   ► So it's very complicated.

00:48:54 ◼   ► This is a very complicated thing.

00:48:56 ◼   ► And of course, it's just worth mentioning that like,

00:48:59 ◼   ► the type of people that this is used maliciously against,

00:49:03 ◼   ► me and Jason are not, right?

00:49:05 ◼   ► So we're not the best voices for this,

00:49:07 ◼   ► but we just wanted to talk about it.

00:49:09 ◼   ► - Right, and I mean, it is a serious issue.

00:49:11 ◼   ► Like it is a very serious issue.

00:49:13 ◼   ► And I will say this about it too.

00:49:18 ◼   ► I like that Apple made this statement

00:49:20 ◼   ► because it does show that what Apple didn't do

00:49:24 ◼   ► is take all the criticism and get up on its high horse

00:49:29 ◼   ► and be like, no, we've thought of everything.

00:49:33 ◼   ► - We've already done it.

00:49:34 ◼   ► - They have come down off of that platform

00:49:39 ◼   ► and said, yeah, okay, we hear you.

00:49:41 ◼   ► We are making these changes.

00:49:42 ◼   ► Now it's still Apple, and I'm sure there will still be criticism of this, but my hope is

00:49:48 ◼   ► that Apple now has a pathway where it is listening and paying attention to this stuff and finding

00:49:53 ◼   ► way a way of making this product work better.

00:49:58 ◼   ► There are going to be some people who say they should just not make this product, but

00:50:00 ◼   ► I think the challenge there is these products are going to exist whether Apple makes it

00:50:05 ◼   ► or not.

00:50:06 ◼   ► all Apple can do.

00:50:09 ◼   ► Do you want Apple to not make the product

00:50:12 ◼   ► because it lowers the barrier for people to use it?

00:50:16 ◼   ► Or do you want Apple to make the product

00:50:18 ◼   ► because Apple is a company with a level of scrutiny

00:50:20 ◼   ► that is going to create a whole set of understanding

00:50:24 ◼   ► and best practices for how these kind of devices work?

00:50:28 ◼   ► There's no right answer there.

00:50:30 ◼   ► Like it's complicated, but I think it's fascinating

00:50:34 ◼   ► to watch it. And as somebody who has an AirTag on my son's bike in case it gets stolen, I

00:50:39 ◼   ► have to say all these changes make it much harder to use AirTags for that because it's

00:50:44 ◼   ► going to be like, "Hey, hey, thief. Hey, hey, hey, there's an AirTag." And like, okay, but

00:50:48 ◼   ► it's not meant, you know, the goal of it is not meant to be recovering lost, like stolen

00:50:54 ◼   ► property. It's meant to be recovering lost property.

00:50:57 ◼   ► Yeah, I think they reiterated that, right? It's for stuff you've lost, not stuff that's

00:51:01 ◼   ► that's been stolen.

00:51:02 ◼   ► Like that's kind of the idea of the product.

00:51:05 ◼   ► - Exactly.

00:51:06 ◼   ► But then again, I have that same thought,

00:51:08 ◼   ► which is if I've got an air tag

00:51:11 ◼   ► that's screwed in to the bicycle

00:51:15 ◼   ► and it starts to chirp

00:51:17 ◼   ► and maybe somebody who stole it gets a little alarm

00:51:20 ◼   ► and they're like, "Oh man, I can't get that thing out."

00:51:23 ◼   ► And maybe their answer is just, "We'll dump it."

00:51:26 ◼   ► And then it's lost and not stolen.

00:51:28 ◼   ► - And now you can go get it again.

00:51:30 ◼   ► - Yeah, mm-hmm, maybe.

00:51:32 ◼   ► - Does this make these products really bad

00:51:34 ◼   ► for putting on a suitcase?

00:51:36 ◼   ► - I mean, it's gonna chirp at people.

00:51:38 ◼   ► (laughs)

00:51:39 ◼   ► I don't know.

00:51:40 ◼   ► - Interesting, 'cause that's where I have mine

00:51:43 ◼   ► and I guess that's like the point of it.

00:51:46 ◼   ► - Yeah, it's not going with it.

00:51:47 ◼   ► I think there's something about it traveling with you,

00:51:49 ◼   ► but actually I worry that it's in the cargo hold

00:51:52 ◼   ► and the person who's up above is getting alerts

00:51:55 ◼   ► that there's a tracker moving with them

00:51:58 ◼   ► 'cause they're on the same airplane

00:52:00 ◼   ► or they're in the same bus.

00:52:02 ◼   ► I don't know.

00:52:03 ◼   ► - I wonder about that.

00:52:04 ◼   ► - Although actually if it sees, I don't know.

00:52:09 ◼   ► 'Cause it doesn't know that it's traveling with its owner.

00:52:15 ◼   ► Does it or does it?

00:52:17 ◼   ► - Sometimes, sometimes not.

00:52:19 ◼   ► - Yeah, I don't know.

00:52:21 ◼   ► We'll see.

00:52:22 ◼   ► I mean, that's the challenge here, right?

00:52:24 ◼   ► Is Apple is making their own product

00:52:25 ◼   ► a lot more complicated.

00:52:26 ◼   ► Yeah.

00:52:27 ◼   ► Um, but they have to.

00:52:31 ◼   ► Yeah, we'll see.

00:52:32 ◼   ► That's interesting.

00:52:33 ◼   ► That's an intriguing one.

00:52:34 ◼   ► I'm going to, I'm going to, I'm going to wonder about that one because that's like, I think

00:52:38 ◼   ► the prime use case of this product is for like luggage.

00:52:43 ◼   ► Yeah.

00:52:44 ◼   ► We'll see.

00:52:45 ◼   ► All right.

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00:54:33 ◼   ► on Twitter that you were doing some stuff to some old Macs and I can't I'm

00:54:37 ◼   ► intrigued I want to know what you're up to over there. I got a sledgehammer, smashed a bunch of old Macs. I hate these things. They know what they did.

00:54:43 ◼   ► - OS 8, it's terrible, bang!

00:54:46 ◼   ► (laughing)

00:54:48 ◼   ► - 20 smashed Macs for 2022.

00:54:50 ◼   ► - Yeah, uh-huh.

00:54:51 ◼   ► (laughing)

00:54:54 ◼   ► Yeah, only two survived, 18 died.

00:54:57 ◼   ► Yeah, I did.

00:55:02 ◼   ► This all started with,

00:55:04 ◼   ► I mean, Steven Hackett is always partially to blame

00:55:07 ◼   ► for everything involving old Macs.

00:55:09 ◼   ► Karen Healy, who is a listener and reader

00:55:13 ◼   ► and professor at Duke.

00:55:16 ◼   ► - Oh, did they put together the charts?

00:55:18 ◼   ► - Yeah, he put together the charts

00:55:20 ◼   ► that were the Mac report card follow-up charts on Friday.

00:55:24 ◼   ► Ciaran did that.

00:55:25 ◼   ► He has an SE 30 fully functional at his desk, a Mac SE 30

00:55:28 ◼   ► with a printer and everything.

00:55:31 ◼   ► And it's amazing.

00:55:33 ◼   ► And I was following what he was doing with that.

00:55:36 ◼   ► And I was intrigued

00:55:39 ◼   ► 'cause I have a bunch of old Macs here.

00:55:40 ◼   ► I have more old Macs here than I used to have

00:55:42 ◼   ► because of the 20 Macs for 2020 project.

00:55:45 ◼   ► And one of the things that I've been thinking

00:55:46 ◼   ► for a long time is that I've got my wife's old Mac

00:55:49 ◼   ► from college, which was a 128 upgraded to a plus.

00:55:53 ◼   ► So it's got a SCSI port on the back,

00:55:57 ◼   ► and it's got the, but it's got the, you know,

00:55:59 ◼   ► original keyboard without the number pad or the arrow keys,

00:56:02 ◼   ► and it's got the original mouse and all of that.

00:56:05 ◼   ► So, but it's hard drive that she had for it,

00:56:09 ◼   ► which I still have, but as, and I tried last week

00:56:12 ◼   ► to see if it still worked, but it's jogging my memory

00:56:14 ◼   ► that maybe that was the issue,

00:56:15 ◼   ► is that the hard drive did die at some point.

00:56:18 ◼   ► So we don't have our old hard drive from back then,

00:56:20 ◼   ► but we have our old computer.

00:56:22 ◼   ► And what I learned from Kieran Healy, among other people,

00:56:25 ◼   ► is that it's, look, technology has come so far

00:56:30 ◼   ► in terms of letting people build these like,

00:56:39 ◼   ► miniaturized devices that are probably way more powerful

00:56:44 ◼   ► than the computers that they're attached to

00:56:46 ◼   ► that bring back life to old computers.

00:56:51 ◼   ► So I ordered a thing called the floppy emu,

00:56:56 ◼   ► floppy emulator.

00:56:57 ◼   ► It's like a circuit board in a little plastic box

00:57:03 ◼   ► that you assemble the little plastic box around it

00:57:06 ◼   ► and you plug it into the floppy port

00:57:07 ◼   ► on the back of an early Mac, and it's got an SD card,

00:57:12 ◼   ► and it's got a screen and some buttons.

00:57:14 ◼   ► It's got a little tiny screen.

00:57:15 ◼   ► It's like a little Raspberry Pi kind of thing.

00:57:17 ◼   ► And you pick what you basically off of the SD card

00:57:22 ◼   ► using the buttons, you pick what disc you want it to be

00:57:27 ◼   ► for that moment.

00:57:29 ◼   ► And the computer, it's powered by the computer,

00:57:32 ◼   ► by the floppy port on the back.

00:57:34 ◼   ► and it boots that disc like it was a floppy

00:57:38 ◼   ► 'cause 400K floppy disks are hard to come by these days.

00:57:43 ◼   ► But you can put thousands of things on an SD card

00:57:48 ◼   ► and have them all be a little floppy disk images.

00:57:53 ◼   ► So I bought one of those.

00:57:55 ◼   ► I have another thing called a Blue Scuzzy that's coming

00:57:58 ◼   ► that is a virtual Scuzzy hard drive with an SD card in it.

00:58:03 ◼   ► in it, same thing, so that I can boot these old Macs.

00:58:07 ◼   ► So what I did and what I posted on Twitter is that

00:58:09 ◼   ► I got my wife's original Mac to boot for the first time in,

00:58:14 ◼   ► I don't know how long, 15, 20 years at least,

00:58:20 ◼   ► to boot into all sorts of, you know, versions of Mac OS

00:58:25 ◼   ► and run games and all sorts of stuff.

00:58:29 ◼   ► I typed up a few sentences in Microsoft Word version four,

00:58:33 ◼   ► just amazing kind of to bring that thing back to life.

00:58:37 ◼   ► - Gotta write and compute it now.

00:58:39 ◼   ► - Well, the moment that I, yeah, oh yeah.

00:58:42 ◼   ► The moment that I turned it on,

00:58:44 ◼   ► I immediately thought of upgrade

00:58:46 ◼   ► because it makes that beep that the show starts.

00:58:49 ◼   ► That's the beep of the original Mac.

00:58:52 ◼   ► So it's pretty, it's been, that was really fun

00:58:56 ◼   ► and I wanna set it up somewhere

00:58:58 ◼   ► where I can spend some more time with it

00:59:00 ◼   ► because it's on a shelf right now

00:59:01 ◼   ► and it's not the most ergonomic thing

00:59:03 ◼   ► and I want to put it somewhere else that's fun.

00:59:04 ◼   ► But that was really great.

00:59:06 ◼   ► And I, with the Blue Scuzzy,

00:59:11 ◼   ► I'm also hoping to see if I've got some other older

00:59:14 ◼   ► kind of classic Mac, the pre-Power PC Mac generation,

00:59:18 ◼   ► especially, see if I can get them up and running.

00:59:22 ◼   ► And then I also have some Power PC Macs,

00:59:24 ◼   ► and I'm working on that.

00:59:27 ◼   ► I've got a G4, and the nice thing about the G4s

00:59:31 ◼   ► is depending on which model you've got,

00:59:33 ◼   ► they run a very broad cross-section of operating systems.

00:59:36 ◼   ► They will boot OS 9, but they will also run like 10.0

00:59:41 ◼   ► and 10.1 and 10.2 and 10.3,

00:59:44 ◼   ► and some of them will do four and five.

00:59:45 ◼   ► Like it runs a really surprisingly broad cross-section

00:59:49 ◼   ► of software.

00:59:52 ◼   ► And a lot of this stuff is emulatable,

00:59:54 ◼   ► but there is something about having it running

00:59:56 ◼   ► on the actual computer that is great.

00:59:58 ◼   ► And the challenge that I've run into is over the years,

01:00:03 ◼   ► and I know this came up when Apple introduced

01:00:06 ◼   ► the 24-inch iMac with that magnetic cable on the back,

01:00:10 ◼   ► because it's not a standard,

01:00:11 ◼   ► it's a thing that Apple invented.

01:00:13 ◼   ► And oh, there is such a history of Apple inventing

01:00:16 ◼   ► its own kind of plugs for things.

01:00:18 ◼   ► And it's great in the moment, but then 20 years pass

01:00:21 ◼   ► and you're like, I've got this iMac,

01:00:23 ◼   ► but it doesn't have a power cord.

01:00:25 ◼   ► What can I plug into it?

01:00:27 ◼   ► And the answer is, well, buddy,

01:00:29 ◼   ► you can't just find a power cord and plug it in.

01:00:33 ◼   ► You gotta find a 24 inch iMac power plug

01:00:38 ◼   ► and then plug into that and the whole thing, right?

01:00:41 ◼   ► So in history, first Macs that did video out

01:00:44 ◼   ► had the Mac display connector, which was not VGA.

01:00:48 ◼   ► It was a different port.

01:00:50 ◼   ► And then later on when Apple built monitors in the G4 era,

01:00:54 ◼   ► They wanted to have them super awesomely powered

01:00:57 ◼   ► by a single cable.

01:00:59 ◼   ► So they built an enhancement to DVI called ADC

01:01:03 ◼   ► that basically did DVI and power and USB over one plug.

01:01:08 ◼   ► But, you know, that's not a standard port.

01:01:14 ◼   ► And so then you have to get up, find a converter

01:01:17 ◼   ► and all this stuff is going out to like, even to DVI.

01:01:20 ◼   ► It's like, well, how do I get that in like on a TV

01:01:23 ◼   ► with HDMI or to a monitor, and that is also a challenge.

01:01:26 ◼   ► So there's a lot of a challenge to just like,

01:01:29 ◼   ► see if you can get these things.

01:01:31 ◼   ► Like the nice thing about the original Mac

01:01:32 ◼   ► is it comes with its own screen.

01:01:35 ◼   ► You can just see it.

01:01:36 ◼   ► But like this Mac 2 CI I have,

01:01:38 ◼   ► I have no idea if it works or not,

01:01:41 ◼   ► because I have nothing that plugs into its monitor port

01:01:45 ◼   ► on the backside.

01:01:46 ◼   ► So there's just, there's a lot,

01:01:48 ◼   ► there's a lot going on here.

01:01:50 ◼   ► I think what my goal in doing all of this,

01:01:53 ◼   ► and I did buy, I bought an SSD that plugs in

01:01:56 ◼   ► from Otherworld Computing, their legacy edition,

01:02:00 ◼   ► which is basically, it's an SSD hard drive

01:02:02 ◼   ► that you can stick in a Power Mac G4,

01:02:04 ◼   ► which is nice 'cause these hard drives and these things,

01:02:09 ◼   ► if they're not dead, are going to be dead soon.

01:02:11 ◼   ► And what I wanna do ultimately is I wanna be able

01:02:15 ◼   ► to get video out from something like the G4

01:02:18 ◼   ► into a form where I can capture it.

01:02:23 ◼   ► 'Cause I would love to do some, just for fun,

01:02:26 ◼   ► really do some live streams where I explore old Mac software

01:02:30 ◼   ► 'cause I think it would be fun, like on YouTube.

01:02:33 ◼   ► But I have to get to work first

01:02:36 ◼   ► and that's not going well so far, so we'll see.

01:02:39 ◼   ► - So the keyboard and the mouse,

01:02:41 ◼   ► are they all working and using the original ones?

01:02:45 ◼   ► The original Mac, the keyboard and the mouse,

01:02:49 ◼   ► so I actually have two original Macs.

01:02:51 ◼   ► I have an original original Mac that someone sent me.

01:02:54 ◼   ► I haven't tried that one.

01:02:58 ◼   ► And then I got Lauren's Mac, original Mac updated

01:03:01 ◼   ► to a Mac plus.

01:03:03 ◼   ► So I have two keyboards and I have two mice.

01:03:05 ◼   ► And the keyboard and mouse that are attached to Lauren's

01:03:09 ◼   ► work, all the keys work, the whole thing works.

01:03:11 ◼   ► So the input isn't a problem.

01:03:14 ◼   ► I have an ADB mouse and keyboard,

01:03:19 ◼   ► which for like the next generation,

01:03:22 ◼   ► I don't have an SE, but I do have that 2ci.

01:03:24 ◼   ► I was able to power up the 2ci

01:03:27 ◼   ► by pressing the power button on the ADB keyboard.

01:03:30 ◼   ► What happened after that is a mystery

01:03:31 ◼   ► 'cause I can't get video out of it.

01:03:33 ◼   ► I'm still trying to figure that one out.

01:03:35 ◼   ► I've got an adapter

01:03:36 ◼   ► and it's got a bunch of dip switches on it,

01:03:37 ◼   ► but I haven't been successful with it.

01:03:38 ◼   ► And I'm gonna have to do a process of elimination thing

01:03:40 ◼   ► and see if I can figure it out.

01:03:42 ◼   ► I did discover that my TV that I had out here,

01:03:45 ◼   ► the flat screen TV that was the first flat screen

01:03:48 ◼   ► we ever bought, it has a VGA port on the back

01:03:50 ◼   ► and it has composite video on the back

01:03:53 ◼   ► and it has component video on the back.

01:03:55 ◼   ► So it's actually the last device in my house that will play

01:03:58 ◼   ► like that will do like easily like direct VGA or something.

01:04:05 ◼   ► Anyway, there are lots and lots and lots

01:04:07 ◼   ► of adapters out there.

01:04:09 ◼   ► Anyway, and then you get to the G4 and it has USB.

01:04:12 ◼   ► So like literally anything can plug into any of these G4s.

01:04:15 ◼   ► I also have a G4 Cube right behind me and a iMac G4,

01:04:20 ◼   ► and those both boot just fine.

01:04:23 ◼   ► And those have, again, USB ports on them.

01:04:27 ◼   ► Once it gets to the USB era, it's actually really easy.

01:04:30 ◼   ► The other thing that's terrifying is that I realized

01:04:32 ◼   ► I kind of need a mouse pad.

01:04:34 ◼   ► I haven't needed a mouse pad in so long.

01:04:38 ◼   ► - Oh, right, yeah.

01:04:39 ◼   ► - But it's got the little rolly ball mouse

01:04:41 ◼   ► and you kind of need a surface that grips the ball

01:04:45 ◼   ► and lets you mouse around.

01:04:47 ◼   ► So that's a little bit weird.

01:04:48 ◼   ► - So you're like firmly lost in old Dongle Town right now.

01:04:52 ◼   ► You know how you get like the old town, you know?

01:04:54 ◼   ► You're like, that's where you are.

01:04:55 ◼   ► - This is, yeah, it was bypassed

01:04:57 ◼   ► by the great Dongle Town bypass,

01:05:00 ◼   ► but it's still there, historic.

01:05:02 ◼   ► - Historic Dongle Town. - Historic Dongle Town.

01:05:05 ◼   ► And yeah, like some of these ports, again, I understand it.

01:05:09 ◼   ► And I'm just like, Apple, what are you doing?

01:05:11 ◼   ► Like ADC, 'cause I have two ADC monitors

01:05:13 ◼   ► and you plug them in, it could not be easier.

01:05:15 ◼   ► You plug them in and they just work

01:05:17 ◼   ► and they're powered and they've got USB ports on the back.

01:05:20 ◼   ► And it's like, it's great.

01:05:21 ◼   ► But if you try to attach anything else to that computer,

01:05:24 ◼   ► it's like, I don't know what to tell you, ADC.

01:05:27 ◼   ► It works great with ADC monitors and that's about it.

01:05:29 ◼   ► So I bought a bunch of adapters.

01:05:31 ◼   ► I bought VGA adapters.

01:05:33 ◼   ► I bought DVI adapters.

01:05:35 ◼   ► I bought an ADC to DVI adapter.

01:05:38 ◼   ► I got lots of adapters, but getting it all to work

01:05:41 ◼   ► out to ideally to HDMI is a work in progress,

01:05:47 ◼   ► but it's been fun.

01:05:49 ◼   ► And I'm hoping that at some point

01:05:52 ◼   ► I'll be able to sort of share that.

01:05:54 ◼   ► If I have to go to the classic Mac,

01:05:56 ◼   ► I'll have to figure out like a way to set the frame rate

01:05:58 ◼   ► so it doesn't do the weird scan line thing.

01:06:02 ◼   ► If I want to just shoot the screen basically,

01:06:06 ◼   ► and people can just watch the screen with me.

01:06:08 ◼   ► But I figure I lived through that era

01:06:10 ◼   ► and there are a lot of people out there who didn't

01:06:13 ◼   ► or if they did, like I also for the OS X days,

01:06:16 ◼   ► the G4 days, I worked in macro that whole period.

01:06:18 ◼   ► So it might be fun to explore some of the old software

01:06:21 ◼   ► and old games and stuff.

01:06:22 ◼   ► So I'll do a little bit of that just more for fun.

01:06:24 ◼   ► It's a little like my keyboard club maybe a little bit.

01:06:28 ◼   ► - I would say though, from a streaming perspective,

01:06:30 ◼   ► me as a viewer, I would want to see you using it

01:06:35 ◼   ► more than I would want to see the output of it.

01:06:37 ◼   ► - That's fair.

01:06:39 ◼   ► I just wanna have the ability to shooting,

01:06:42 ◼   ► shooting the screen is bad.

01:06:48 ◼   ► It like, it looks really bad.

01:06:49 ◼   ► - Right.

01:06:50 ◼   ► - So what I wanna do is be able to have a thing

01:06:51 ◼   ► where you can see me and you can also see

01:06:53 ◼   ► what's on the screen.

01:06:54 ◼   ► - Yeah.

01:06:55 ◼   ► - But that's a detail.

01:06:56 ◼   ► I actually would have to get video out of these things

01:06:58 ◼   ► in order to go down that path.

01:07:00 ◼   ► But we'll see.

01:07:02 ◼   ► We'll see what happens there.

01:07:04 ◼   ► I could also emulate this stuff and that would be super easy

01:07:07 ◼   ► because then it's window capture.

01:07:08 ◼   ► It's less exciting in that it's not old hardware,

01:07:11 ◼   ► but it works.

01:07:13 ◼   ► So that may happen.

01:07:15 ◼   ► - That is less fun though.

01:07:16 ◼   ► I will say.

01:07:17 ◼   ► - It is a lot less fun.

01:07:18 ◼   ► It doesn't have the sounds like that.

01:07:19 ◼   ► The classic Mac keyboard has a sound.

01:07:21 ◼   ► It has a sound to it that is very specific.

01:07:24 ◼   ► - Well, there it is.

01:07:26 ◼   ► The spring sounds are rough.

01:07:30 ◼   ► - It's pretty wild.

01:07:32 ◼   ► - You send that to me.

01:07:33 ◼   ► I'll take care of that thing for you real nice. Great. I'll send that back like you

01:07:38 ◼   ► wouldn't believe. Oh man you're gonna lubricate every switch on the original Mac keyboard. Are they

01:07:42 ◼   ► Alps switches? I imagine that they are. Hmm. Yeah but you can do it. There's like

01:07:49 ◼   ► it's like a whole subculture like if people are harvesting those things

01:07:52 ◼   ► because there are newer housings that you can put. What was the original Mac

01:07:58 ◼   ► keyboard. Man, I would have a great time with that. You wouldn't believe what that thing

01:08:05 ◼   ► would come back like. I'm trying to find out now. I'm not sure what they were actually

01:08:09 ◼   ► built with.

01:08:10 ◼   ► I've got my Apple extended keyboard as well.

01:08:14 ◼   ► Similarly.

01:08:15 ◼   ► The big one.

01:08:16 ◼   ► Yeah.

01:08:17 ◼   ► The big one. It's so big. It's way, way, way, way, way too big. I know Jon Gruber swears

01:08:20 ◼   ► by them, but it's enormous. This is, you know, it reminds me every time I look at it of why

01:08:24 ◼   ► I don't want a big keyboard. I want a little compact keyboard.

01:08:28 ◼   ► We're gonna talk keyboards today in Upgrade Plus, by the way. So you go to getupgradeplus.com.

01:08:33 ◼   ► Not only do you get ad-free episodes, there's also longer bonus content. And it is the conclusion,

01:08:39 ◼   ► possibly? Conclusion part one of Upgrade Keyboard Club, because Jason has the keyboard that

01:08:46 ◼   ► I built on stream and sent him. It's right here.

01:08:48 ◼   ► So we're gonna talk about that. So you also have been delving into history,

01:08:52 ◼   ► history. I have. So, kind of, greatly for me, out of the blue, surprising, I have an

01:08:59 ◼   ► analog pocket now. Do you know what the analog pocket is? This is that, like, it's a new

01:09:05 ◼   ► handheld gaming thing, but it will play cartridges from old handheld games, right? Looks really

01:09:11 ◼   ► cool. If I had any nostalgia for that era, which I don't because I was too old then,

01:09:16 ◼   ► it passed me by, but I would be on it because it's such a great idea because it's playing,

01:09:21 ◼   ► Because it's not an emulator?

01:09:23 ◼   ► It's not an emulator.

01:09:25 ◼   ► Because it's hardware and then you put the actual cartridges in it.

01:09:29 ◼   ► Yes.

01:09:30 ◼   ► So to play games on an analog pocket, you need, ostensibly, Game Boy games.

01:09:35 ◼   ► If you're Game Boy, Game Boy Color, or Game Boy Advance, they also have little adapters

01:09:39 ◼   ► so you can play Game Gear and Neo Geo games on it.

01:09:44 ◼   ► But like, really this is built for Nintendo Game Boy games.

01:09:48 ◼   ► It does not work with an emu- you cannot emulate games, you have to have the cartridges.

01:09:53 ◼   ► Now I missed this when it initially went on sale, I missed it when they went back up on

01:09:58 ◼   ► sale again and these things are backordered for like an unknowable amount of time.

01:10:04 ◼   ► But a listener got in contact with me a week or so ago, they had an extra.

01:10:09 ◼   ► They ordered two because they weren't sure what colour they wanted.

01:10:13 ◼   ► And they sold theirs to me.

01:10:15 ◼   ► I would like to thank Blair for that.

01:10:17 ◼   ► Very nice person.

01:10:18 ◼   ► They did me a real solid.

01:10:20 ◼   ► Because this was kind of something that I kind of wanted, wasn't sure about, didn't

01:10:25 ◼   ► want to spend aftermarket prices on and didn't want to wait years for.

01:10:29 ◼   ► So it was kind of like, well, this thing's lost to me.

01:10:32 ◼   ► And it's kind of funny because I was also cleaning my office out.

01:10:35 ◼   ► Well, Adina has been helping me a lot with cleaning out the old office because she's

01:10:39 ◼   ► going to take the home office because I don't need the home office anymore.

01:10:42 ◼   ► By the way, didn't even mention this, I sold my iMac Pro.

01:10:45 ◼   ► It's gone.

01:10:45 ◼   ► Yep, gone.

01:10:48 ◼   ► - Wow.

01:10:50 ◼   ► - Yeah.

01:10:51 ◼   ► - End of an era.

01:10:51 ◼   ► - Yep.

01:10:52 ◼   ► It was one of those things where we sold it

01:10:54 ◼   ► and I let it go and then, you know,

01:10:56 ◼   ► as it was being taken away, I was like,

01:10:58 ◼   ► I don't think I was ready for that.

01:11:01 ◼   ► Like I did a clone of it and everything, right?

01:11:03 ◼   ► So like I have my time machine back up,

01:11:05 ◼   ► I have a clone of it, but now it's gone.

01:11:08 ◼   ► Like, but it was kind of like,

01:11:10 ◼   ► maybe I can sit on this show, people will get it.

01:11:12 ◼   ► I felt like I wasn't emotionally ready for it.

01:11:15 ◼   ► Like, 'cause you know.

01:11:16 ◼   ► - So we bought, we went, this is a long time ago now,

01:11:20 ◼   ► this is 2010, but we went,

01:11:23 ◼   ► we were thinking about buying a new car

01:11:25 ◼   ► and we were curious, we were gonna do a test drive.

01:11:29 ◼   ► And you know what happened, which is we did the test drive

01:11:32 ◼   ► and they said, we can get you out of here with this today.

01:11:35 ◼   ► And before I knew it, I was pulling all of the stuff,

01:11:38 ◼   ► all of our possessions out of our station wagon

01:11:40 ◼   ► and putting it in the minivan.

01:11:42 ◼   ► And it's like, this is the car we brought our children home

01:11:46 ◼   ► from the hospital in.

01:11:48 ◼   ► It's like so many memories in this car.

01:11:51 ◼   ► And like in 10 minutes, we were out of there

01:11:54 ◼   ► and it was gone and never to be seen again.

01:11:57 ◼   ► And I had that exact feeling, which is,

01:11:59 ◼   ► I knew this might happen and I agreed to it

01:12:03 ◼   ► and I'm not surprised by it,

01:12:04 ◼   ► but I am not emotionally prepared for it.

01:12:08 ◼   ► And like once the iMac Pro not at, you know,

01:12:11 ◼   ► bringing children home from the hospital levels,

01:12:13 ◼   ► I've been using it for a really long time.

01:12:16 ◼   ► - Yeah.

01:12:16 ◼   ► - And like I did a lot of important stuff on it.

01:12:18 ◼   ► And it was just like, it's gone now.

01:12:21 ◼   ► And I wanted it gone,

01:12:22 ◼   ► 'cause it was just a big thing that I never use.

01:12:25 ◼   ► And honestly it was just like a hassle,

01:12:28 ◼   ► but it's gone now and got a decent price on it.

01:12:31 ◼   ► Honestly, I was just happy to get rid of it.

01:12:32 ◼   ► And so it's gone now forever.

01:12:34 ◼   ► - I'm hugging my Mac Pro right now.

01:12:35 ◼   ► (laughing)

01:12:36 ◼   ► Well, you know, get ready.

01:12:38 ◼   ► Anytime's coming for you, my friend.

01:12:40 ◼   ► The Rumor Roundup may be coming for you soon.

01:12:43 ◼   ► But in doing that, I actually found some old Game Boy cartridges

01:12:46 ◼   ► and I was like, "I don't want to get rid of those things."

01:12:48 ◼   ► And then, out of the blue, Blair got in touch with me,

01:12:51 ◼   ► analog pockets, and now I got it.

01:12:53 ◼   ► So I've got some of my old cartridges, some of them work, some of them don't.

01:12:56 ◼   ► Some kind of work.

01:12:57 ◼   ► So some old Game Boy and Game Boy Advance games

01:13:01 ◼   ► require battery replacements because they're really old.

01:13:05 ◼   ► Some of these cartridges need batteries to work at all for saving.

01:13:09 ◼   ► - Wow.

01:13:10 ◼   ► - Some of them need batteries for accessing certain game features.

01:13:15 ◼   ► Like for example, I have a Game Boy Advance Pokemon game.

01:13:19 ◼   ► It works and it has the old save on it and stuff,

01:13:23 ◼   ► but there are features in the game that require a battery to keep the clock running.

01:13:30 ◼   ► - So these cartridges are so sophisticated

01:13:34 ◼   ► that they have batteries in them,

01:13:36 ◼   ► that they're where you do your saves.

01:13:39 ◼   ► - Yes.

01:13:40 ◼   ► - Is that the premise of the whole analog pocket

01:13:42 ◼   ► is that the cartridges basically are the thing

01:13:44 ◼   ► that the hardware boots off of

01:13:46 ◼   ► so that if you duplicate the hardware,

01:13:47 ◼   ► you don't actually need the software

01:13:49 ◼   ► 'cause they're all on the cartridges?

01:13:51 ◼   ► Is that how those systems work?

01:13:53 ◼   ► - So the analog pocket has its own operating system

01:13:56 ◼   ► and it's doing a bunch of things,

01:13:57 ◼   ► but everything is on the cartridge.

01:13:59 ◼   ► You don't save to the pocket.

01:14:01 ◼   ► It's like the same as the Game Boy, right?

01:14:03 ◼   ► So it is ostensibly just acting like a Game Boy,

01:14:07 ◼   ► but it's got a layer on top.

01:14:09 ◼   ► Like some of the stuff that it's doing is like,

01:14:11 ◼   ► the screen I think is a 4X of the original Game Boy screen.

01:14:16 ◼   ► - Scaling.

01:14:16 ◼   ► - And it looks incredible.

01:14:18 ◼   ► - But what it doesn't have to do,

01:14:20 ◼   ► but it's acting as a bridge and it's booting

01:14:23 ◼   ► in maybe in a VM, but whatever it is,

01:14:25 ◼   ► it's booting the software that's on the cartridge.

01:14:28 ◼   ► It's not that, and that's how this is legal is

01:14:30 ◼   ► they don't have to put like a knockoff of the Game Boy operating system on the

01:14:35 ◼   ► device because it's on the cartridge. Yeah because I don't even really know

01:14:38 ◼   ► how much of an operating system the Game Boys had on them. Like it all loads from

01:14:42 ◼   ► there. There was no saving on them or anything you know. Right that's amazing.

01:14:46 ◼   ► And so some of my cartridges they need the battery replacement. So I've ordered

01:14:51 ◼   ► some batteries and I'm gonna be doing some replacements but some of the

01:14:53 ◼   ► cartridges they just needed to be cleaned. It's like I spent some time with

01:14:57 ◼   ► some isopropyl alcohol today and I got my 30 year old version of Tetris working.

01:15:04 ◼   ► Ooh. I've played Tetris today I could not believe it. I remembered watching my

01:15:10 ◼   ► mum play that cartridge. It's quite emotional really. That was the first game

01:15:16 ◼   ► I played on the original Mac. In fact when I booted it up and I texted Lauren

01:15:21 ◼   ► a picture and she said does it have Tetris and I had to go to the Macintosh

01:15:24 ◼   ► museum and download Tetris and copy it over onto the SD card and then put it in

01:15:30 ◼   ► and then I played Tetris and it was like oh my god I've that is the video game

01:15:33 ◼   ► probably that I've spent the most time in of any video game ever was Tetris on

01:15:38 ◼   ► the on the Mac. So yeah playing that today like I did got up to level 11. Took you back 30 years huh? Big time.

01:15:45 ◼   ► Big time. Now I don't remember like Tetris has a leaderboard and I don't

01:15:50 ◼   ► remember if you if it saved that or if it was just whilst it was booted I don't

01:15:56 ◼   ► remember because it wasn't like remembering it from save to save but

01:16:01 ◼   ► that goes so I have some batteries and I've got some more batteries coming

01:16:05 ◼   ► because the Game Boy Advance and the Game Boy Color games had different

01:16:09 ◼   ► batteries inside of the cartridges so it's really simple like from my

01:16:13 ◼   ► perspective you just got to de-solder the battery and solder a new battery on it

01:16:16 ◼   ► like that's the kind of a thing I have no issue with. But for me now that's easy.

01:16:20 ◼   ► Like I can do that. Right. You can solder things. I know how to solder things. I'm very confident with it.

01:16:25 ◼   ► And also the iFixit kit has the bit needed to get the screw out because it's

01:16:30 ◼   ► like a weird screw. So I was pretty pleased. Like I have all the stuff. I just

01:16:35 ◼   ► needed to get some batteries. So I'm gonna be putting some new batteries in

01:16:39 ◼   ► my my out Pokemon Alpha, no in my Pokemon Sapphire game. Gonna play that. I was

01:16:45 ◼   ► pretty bummed though I found my original Pokemon cartridge like Pokemon blue the

01:16:50 ◼   ► original one and I booted it up and it worked but it had my younger brother's

01:16:55 ◼   ► save on it when I was like oh no why did I let him play it? I could have revived my old Pokemon save god that would have been

01:17:04 ◼   ► amazing it's like my damn younger brother why did I let him play it?

01:17:08 ◼   ► Did you text him? No I think it's my own fault really I would there's no way he

01:17:14 ◼   ► would have done that without my approval.

01:17:16 ◼   ► 'Cause it's like, I never thought I would wanna

01:17:19 ◼   ► go back to it, right?

01:17:21 ◼   ► Like, why would I wanna do that?

01:17:22 ◼   ► - Yeah, you were too cool for that.

01:17:24 ◼   ► - I was like, oh, I've got like an intent,

01:17:26 ◼   ► no, no, no, no, no, I was just playing

01:17:27 ◼   ► the more modern version.

01:17:29 ◼   ► - Oh, I see, okay.

01:17:30 ◼   ► - I play all the Pokemon games.

01:17:32 ◼   ► - Why would I regress in platforms?

01:17:35 ◼   ► - I've got Pokemon Yellow now,

01:17:36 ◼   ► what do I need Pokemon Blue for?

01:17:38 ◼   ► I mean, like Jason, I've been spending a bunch of time

01:17:39 ◼   ► over the last couple of weeks

01:17:40 ◼   ► paying the brand new Pokemon game, which I love,

01:17:42 ◼   ► So, you know, there's, I'm fine with that.

01:17:44 ◼   ► But yeah, it was, I don't know, it's really fun.

01:17:46 ◼   ► I didn't really think that this was for me

01:17:49 ◼   ► 'cause I'm not really much of a,

01:17:51 ◼   ► I don't really tend to like to play old games.

01:17:54 ◼   ► Like I prefer new games to old games.

01:17:56 ◼   ► - Sure, okay.

01:17:57 ◼   ► - 'Cause they're better.

01:17:58 ◼   ► But there is a particular charm

01:18:02 ◼   ► in playing my original cartridges.

01:18:05 ◼   ► - Right.

01:18:06 ◼   ► - Which I am finding vastly more endearing

01:18:09 ◼   ► than playing an emulator on an Android phone.

01:18:12 ◼   ► There's something about this looks like a Game Boy,

01:18:16 ◼   ► this acts like a Game Boy,

01:18:18 ◼   ► and these are my old Game Boy games.

01:18:21 ◼   ► So there's just something about that whole mixture,

01:18:24 ◼   ► which I'm having a lot of fun playing around with,

01:18:27 ◼   ► which I assume is similar to you.

01:18:29 ◼   ► I bet it's way more fun to boot up that software

01:18:32 ◼   ► on old Mac hardware than in virtual machines.

01:18:34 ◼   ► - Yeah, exactly.

01:18:37 ◼   ► Like I have had mini VMac running on my Mac here for a while

01:18:41 ◼   ► And it's actually proven to be very useful

01:18:43 ◼   ► in mounting those disc images and copying new files

01:18:45 ◼   ► to the SD card and then putting it in the actual thing.

01:18:47 ◼   ► Like that's great.

01:18:49 ◼   ► But in the end, what you really want is to kind of have

01:18:53 ◼   ► that physical experience of feeling like you're using

01:18:57 ◼   ► the original hardware.

01:18:58 ◼   ► And so getting that Mac up and running,

01:19:00 ◼   ► I mean, I wish I had my Mac SE that I used in college,

01:19:05 ◼   ► but it died.

01:19:06 ◼   ► I gave it to my parents and it ended up having a problem

01:19:10 ◼   ► where it would spontaneously restart,

01:19:13 ◼   ► which is really bad, right?

01:19:14 ◼   ► Like you're just sitting there and it goes beep

01:19:16 ◼   ► and just restarting and you've lost everything.

01:19:18 ◼   ► - Suboptimal.

01:19:19 ◼   ► - And so I actually still have the motherboard.

01:19:22 ◼   ► I've been meaning to hang it up somewhere on my wall.

01:19:24 ◼   ► I will do that at some point.

01:19:26 ◼   ► I still have the motherboard from my SE

01:19:27 ◼   ► that I had when I was a kid, but it doesn't work.

01:19:30 ◼   ► But still, even with Lauren's computer,

01:19:33 ◼   ► which is not the same, the keyboards,

01:19:34 ◼   ► you know, it's not the same.

01:19:35 ◼   ► I didn't have that keyboard and mouse.

01:19:36 ◼   ► I had the later model keyboard and mouse.

01:19:38 ◼   ► still the nostalgia power is strong.

01:19:43 ◼   ► And this is actually the reason that I bought,

01:19:46 ◼   ► although I've got to set it up again,

01:19:47 ◼   ► I've got to get a good ergonomic setup for it.

01:19:49 ◼   ► I bought one of those arcade, X arcade tank stick consoles,

01:19:54 ◼   ► which is like, it's like from an arcade console.

01:19:57 ◼   ► It's like a giant, like the buttons and the track ball

01:20:01 ◼   ► and the big joystick from an arcade machine

01:20:05 ◼   ► that you would have at a video game arcade.

01:20:07 ◼   ► And then you run emulation software on a Mac

01:20:10 ◼   ► or on a Raspberry Pi or something like that.

01:20:12 ◼   ► And it's great, but what I really wanna do

01:20:14 ◼   ► is get a stand for it and have a screen

01:20:17 ◼   ► and have it feel even more like you can buy these things

01:20:20 ◼   ► where it's like a whole arcade cabinet, right?

01:20:23 ◼   ► And then you're like using an arcade cabinet

01:20:26 ◼   ► to play an arcade game.

01:20:28 ◼   ► And that's ideal, right?

01:20:29 ◼   ► 'Cause again, there is something,

01:20:31 ◼   ► I can play Joust emulated on my iMac Pro here

01:20:34 ◼   ► with my keyboard that you made for me.

01:20:37 ◼   ► and it's fun, but it's not the same

01:20:39 ◼   ► as hitting those buttons on an arcade console.

01:20:42 ◼   ► So there is something hard...

01:20:44 ◼   ► Emulation is amazing,

01:20:47 ◼   ► but there is something about having hardware involved in...

01:20:52 ◼   ► Hardware was part of the process, right?

01:20:54 ◼   ► It was part of the experience.

01:20:55 ◼   ► It wasn't just the software part of it.

01:20:58 ◼   ► - This episode of Upgrade is brought to you

01:21:00 ◼   ► by our friends over at Membrful.

01:21:03 ◼   ► We really love Membrful here at Relay FM

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01:22:19 ◼   ► So we don't have to do any administration there and it just makes sure that

01:22:23 ◼   ► Everything that stays in the Discord is for members only we put bunch of stuff in there and we have

01:22:29 ◼   ► additional perks are made available to our members in our Discord server and this means we don't have

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01:23:12 ◼   ► Alright, let's do some #askupgrade questions to finish out today's show. Kevin asks, on

01:23:21 ◼   ► On iOS, with iOS notifications, do you clear them out

01:23:24 ◼   ► when you see them come in?

01:23:26 ◼   ► Do you let them stack up until they roll off?

01:23:28 ◼   ► Do you clear all occasionally?

01:23:30 ◼   ► Do you have a system, Jason,

01:23:31 ◼   ► when it comes to managing your notifications?

01:23:34 ◼   ► - I don't.

01:23:35 ◼   ► I don't.

01:23:36 ◼   ► I see them when they come in.

01:23:41 ◼   ► Basically, I use notifications as if a banner pops up

01:23:44 ◼   ► while I'm doing something, I see it, obviously.

01:23:47 ◼   ► And on my lock screen,

01:23:50 ◼   ► in terms of like notification center

01:23:55 ◼   ► and going there to see what's going on,

01:23:58 ◼   ► I basically don't.

01:23:59 ◼   ► I basically just never use that view.

01:24:02 ◼   ► I'm really either getting it in the moment

01:24:04 ◼   ► or I'm seeing it on my lock screen.

01:24:07 ◼   ► And I've never, I just really have an out of sight,

01:24:12 ◼   ► out of mind experience with notifications.

01:24:15 ◼   ► Like I don't have that moment where I'm like,

01:24:19 ◼   ► oh, let's go check my notifications.

01:24:23 ◼   ► If that makes any sense.

01:24:24 ◼   ► - Hmm, okay, I think we're pretty different in a way.

01:24:28 ◼   ► Like, so I kind of describe--

01:24:29 ◼   ► - Story of our podcast. - Can you imagine?

01:24:32 ◼   ► If notifications come in and I see them,

01:24:35 ◼   ► I will sometimes take action on them or just remove them.

01:24:37 ◼   ► Like just, you know, get rid of them,

01:24:39 ◼   ► like swipe them away, press the X or whatever.

01:24:41 ◼   ► And I check my notifications a lot throughout the day,

01:24:44 ◼   ► either by swiping down or swiping up on the lock screen.

01:24:48 ◼   ► And I do kind of like periodically sort through them

01:24:52 ◼   ► and leave the stuff that's there for a reason.

01:24:55 ◼   ► Like I wanna go in and check it.

01:24:56 ◼   ► Like I do manage my notifications throughout the day.

01:24:59 ◼   ► - Now I am a, I mean, this is totally in keeping

01:25:02 ◼   ► with who I am and how I do this stuff is I am opposed

01:25:06 ◼   ► to notification maintenance.

01:25:08 ◼   ► I just don't wanna spend the time on it.

01:25:10 ◼   ► And also the out of sight out of mind thing.

01:25:13 ◼   ► This is the reason why I never really used Facebook

01:25:15 ◼   ► even when I didn't think Facebook was bad for humanity,

01:25:18 ◼   ► I didn't really use Facebook,

01:25:20 ◼   ► is that like having the Twitter app open

01:25:22 ◼   ► was something that I could check on.

01:25:23 ◼   ► But to go to Facebook, I had to open a web browser

01:25:26 ◼   ► and go to Facebook, right?

01:25:28 ◼   ► And so I never did because it was a step too far.

01:25:32 ◼   ► And notifications are kind of like that.

01:25:34 ◼   ► It's like, do I want to go?

01:25:35 ◼   ► I was like, oh, this would be a great time

01:25:36 ◼   ► to look at my notifications.

01:25:38 ◼   ► It's never really grabbed me.

01:25:40 ◼   ► And if there's something that comes out of notifications,

01:25:42 ◼   ► it's like, here's a thing you need to do.

01:25:45 ◼   ► I will do it or put it in a list or do something else

01:25:50 ◼   ► with it to remind myself that I need to do it.

01:25:52 ◼   ► Also on the Mac, and I know Kevin mentioned,

01:25:55 ◼   ► his question says, well, also what about on the Mac?

01:25:57 ◼   ► On the Mac, I'm so frustrated

01:26:00 ◼   ► by the way Notification Center works

01:26:01 ◼   ► because every now and then I'm working on something intently

01:26:04 ◼   ► and I notice a notification bubble go away.

01:26:08 ◼   ► And I think to myself, oh, what was that?

01:26:13 ◼   ► And then I swipe open Notification Center

01:26:15 ◼   ► and I have literally no idea which notification it was.

01:26:19 ◼   ► It doesn't seem like anything in there

01:26:20 ◼   ► is relevant to me at all.

01:26:22 ◼   ► And I actually think, especially on the Mac,

01:26:26 ◼   ► I would really rather the notification center

01:26:27 ◼   ► literally just be a reverse chronological list

01:26:31 ◼   ► of all the notifications that I've received

01:26:33 ◼   ► so that I could have a little log and say,

01:26:35 ◼   ► what was that last notification that I saw?

01:26:37 ◼   ► But instead it groups it and some things don't go there.

01:26:40 ◼   ► And I don't know, it's just not for me.

01:26:43 ◼   ► It's just not how I work.

01:26:45 ◼   ► - Yeah, when it comes to the Mac,

01:26:47 ◼   ► I don't manage them because it's a nightmare

01:26:50 ◼   ► to try and manage them on the Mac.

01:26:51 ◼   ► It's so bad.

01:26:52 ◼   ► So I kind of just let the notifications build up

01:26:55 ◼   ► and clear them all.

01:26:56 ◼   ► I really kind of just treat my iOS,

01:26:58 ◼   ► my iPhone honestly, as my notification system, I guess.

01:27:03 ◼   ► - Yeah, that works.

01:27:07 ◼   ► - Jared asks, "It used to be a big deal

01:27:11 ◼   ► to discuss how much cash Apple had in the bank after earnings.

01:27:15 ◼   ► Why don't we hear much about that anymore?

01:27:17 ◼   ► Has there been some kind of change in the narrative here?

01:27:21 ◼   ► -A little bit.

01:27:22 ◼   ► Apple, a few years ago, went to the trouble of saying,

01:27:26 ◼   ► "We're going to try to become cash neutral,

01:27:29 ◼   ► have a cash-neutral position.

01:27:30 ◼   ► We're no longer going to try to accumulate cash."

01:27:36 ◼   ► And Apple's cash flow is enormous,

01:27:38 ◼   ► So this has actually proven kind of hard for them,

01:27:41 ◼   ► but they have done stock buybacks and dividends.

01:27:45 ◼   ► And dividend is basically every share gets a check.

01:27:49 ◼   ► Like you had an Apple share this quarter,

01:27:51 ◼   ► every share of Apple you get 30 cents

01:27:53 ◼   ► or whatever the dividend is, 14 cents.

01:27:56 ◼   ► And that's over all their shares, that's a lot of money.

01:27:59 ◼   ► And then they spend even more money buying back Apple shares,

01:28:02 ◼   ► they retire the shares.

01:28:03 ◼   ► So what it does is it increases the value

01:28:05 ◼   ► of all the existing shares that are out there,

01:28:07 ◼   ► because now those shares are worth more of the company

01:28:12 ◼   ► because they've bought back these other shares.

01:28:14 ◼   ► So they're using their cash on those things

01:28:16 ◼   ► which build shareholder value.

01:28:19 ◼   ► And I think the argument there was in part,

01:28:23 ◼   ► they had so much cash that it really couldn't be put

01:28:26 ◼   ► to any good use.

01:28:27 ◼   ► And the truth is that if they really need

01:28:29 ◼   ► to make a big purchase, they'll just borrow the money

01:28:31 ◼   ► 'cause their cashflow is so enormous

01:28:33 ◼   ► and the profits are so enormous

01:28:34 ◼   ► that they can borrow the money.

01:28:35 ◼   ► They do borrow some money because it's just more convenient

01:28:39 ◼   ► to do it that way.

01:28:39 ◼   ► And then they pay it off because they've got all the money.

01:28:43 ◼   ► So there's that and also the shareholders,

01:28:50 ◼   ► there were some shareholders who started to grumble

01:28:52 ◼   ► and say, you've got so much cash in the bank,

01:28:54 ◼   ► it's ridiculous, you should give that value back to us.

01:28:57 ◼   ► Like don't hold it in the company.

01:28:59 ◼   ► It belongs to us where the shareholders give it back to us.

01:29:02 ◼   ► And that is when they started doing the stock buyback

01:29:04 ◼   ► and the dividends and brought back the dividends.

01:29:06 ◼   ► So that's the answer is basically Apple doesn't have

01:29:09 ◼   ► a cash hoarding strategy anymore.

01:29:12 ◼   ► Their strategy is in fact to reach a cash neutral position

01:29:15 ◼   ► where for quarter to quarter,

01:29:17 ◼   ► basically their cash does not grow or shrink,

01:29:21 ◼   ► but they still have so much cash flow

01:29:24 ◼   ► that it's actually been hard for them to do that.

01:29:26 ◼   ► And they still have, I forget what the number is,

01:29:29 ◼   ► but it's like, I think tens of billions of,

01:29:33 ◼   ► Like they've got a huge amount of money still in cash

01:29:36 ◼   ► or short term, but their goal is to become cash neutral.

01:29:40 ◼   ► - It was hard for me to find a number.

01:29:42 ◼   ► I was like Googling around today.

01:29:45 ◼   ► And the last reported number I could find

01:29:48 ◼   ► was last year in January of 2021.

01:29:52 ◼   ► And it was in total of cash and secured assets

01:29:57 ◼   ► or something was 200 billion.

01:29:58 ◼   ► - 200 billion.

01:29:59 ◼   ► - The cash was 60.

01:30:01 ◼   ► - Yeah, so they are trying to go cash neutral

01:30:04 ◼   ► and they keep getting more cash

01:30:05 ◼   ► because Apple is a cash generation machine right now.

01:30:10 ◼   ► But they don't talk about it so much

01:30:12 ◼   ► and we don't talk about it so much

01:30:13 ◼   ► because one, the number is ridiculous.

01:30:16 ◼   ► And two, Apple no longer really has cash as its strategy.

01:30:21 ◼   ► Its strategy is to use its cash to buy back stock

01:30:25 ◼   ► and do dividends and give it back to the shareholders

01:30:27 ◼   ► 'cause they've got so much cash

01:30:28 ◼   ► they don't know what to do with it.

01:30:30 ◼   ► Chris asks, "I'm curious, why is it that every podcast host

01:30:33 ◼   ► "is so quick to mention former sponsor of the show

01:30:36 ◼   ► "anytime they discuss anything remotely related

01:30:38 ◼   ► "to a company that has sponsored them before?"

01:30:41 ◼   ► - It's disclosure.

01:30:42 ◼   ► You know, if you're talking about a company,

01:30:44 ◼   ► even if you're doing it completely honestly

01:30:46 ◼   ► and forthrightly, the fact is at some point in the past,

01:30:49 ◼   ► they gave you money, they gave us money.

01:30:52 ◼   ► And so the right thing to do is to disclose

01:30:55 ◼   ► and say they used to be a sponsor

01:30:57 ◼   ► or sometimes they're a sponsor.

01:31:00 ◼   ► And then what you're doing is saying,

01:31:02 ◼   ► use your own judgment about what we say about this company,

01:31:05 ◼   ► because what you don't wanna do is hide the fact

01:31:09 ◼   ► that I'm saying positive things about Linode,

01:31:12 ◼   ► which I use, but also as a sponsor.

01:31:15 ◼   ► And you're like, well, you're saying you like Linode

01:31:17 ◼   ► because Linode gave you money or might give you money again,

01:31:22 ◼   ► or because you actually like Linode.

01:31:24 ◼   ► And I hope that people who listen to what we say

01:31:26 ◼   ► know that when we talk about stuff,

01:31:28 ◼   ► we're being honest about it.

01:31:29 ◼   ► and the ads are the ads and what we talk about

01:31:33 ◼   ► outside of the ads is truthful,

01:31:35 ◼   ► but the right thing to do is to disclose

01:31:39 ◼   ► if there is a financial relationship,

01:31:40 ◼   ► either present or former.

01:31:42 ◼   ► So we do, and other people do too, and that's why.

01:31:44 ◼   ► - And also like, you know,

01:31:46 ◼   ► you end up forming relationships

01:31:48 ◼   ► with people at the company sometimes,

01:31:49 ◼   ► and then you know the people,

01:31:51 ◼   ► and that can maybe change your opinion of them,

01:31:54 ◼   ► and there's all kinds of stuff with it.

01:31:56 ◼   ► So I just think it's worth just saying,

01:31:59 ◼   ► "Hey, we do this."

01:32:00 ◼   ► Because as well, the other thing is if we didn't do it,

01:32:03 ◼   ► people would say, "Hey, we're sponsoring you."

01:32:05 ◼   ► So, "You don't if you do, don't if you don't,"

01:32:07 ◼   ► with some of these things, Chris.

01:32:09 ◼   ► And so we decided to just do it.

01:32:11 ◼   ► 'Cause then it covers us and also helps you

01:32:14 ◼   ► take things of a grain of salt if you want to.

01:32:16 ◼   ► That becomes your decision then at that point.

01:32:20 ◼   ► And Dan asks, "Are you podcast completionists?

01:32:24 ◼   ► If you fall a few episodes behind,

01:32:26 ◼   ► do you just mark all of this and then move on,

01:32:28 ◼   ► or do you catch up? What is your idea on that?

01:32:33 ◼   ► - I am definitely not a podcast completionist.

01:32:37 ◼   ► It does depend on the podcast.

01:32:38 ◼   ► There are some podcasts that I am very much

01:32:40 ◼   ► a drive-by listener where I will listen occasionally

01:32:44 ◼   ► to whatever the most recent episode is.

01:32:46 ◼   ► Usually if I've got, like, I've got the episodes that I,

01:32:50 ◼   ► the podcasts I try to listen to every time.

01:32:53 ◼   ► And sometimes I am out of them.