Upgrade

00:00:00 ◼   ► [Music]

00:00:08 ◼   ► From Relay FM, this is Upgrade, episode 404. Today's show is brought to you by ZocDoc,

00:00:14 ◼   ► TextExpander, and CleanMyMac X. My name is Myke Hurley and I'm joined by Jason Snell. Hi Jason.

00:00:19 ◼   ► File not found.

00:00:20 ◼   ► Ah, host not found. I have a #SnellTalk question for you. It comes from Ryan. He says,

00:00:26 ◼   ► - I had a couple of questions like this,

00:00:29 ◼   ► and I picked one of them today.

00:00:30 ◼   ► People want to know this about you, Jason.

00:00:32 ◼   ► Jason, you are a man who watches a lot of movies, TV,

00:00:36 ◼   ► and reads a lot of books.

00:00:38 ◼   ► Is there something you're giving up

00:00:39 ◼   ► to be able to find this time,

00:00:41 ◼   ► or are you limiting things?

00:00:43 ◼   ► How do you manage it all?

00:00:44 ◼   ► - No, all my time is unlimited.

00:00:46 ◼   ► I have unlimited time to do whatever I want,

00:00:48 ◼   ► and I never give anything up ever.

00:00:50 ◼   ► - That's how you do it.

00:00:51 ◼   ► - Some people go 24/7.

00:00:55 ◼   ► I'm going like 35, eight.

00:00:58 ◼   ► I'm doing eight days a week, 35 hours a day.

00:01:00 ◼   ► That's me.

00:01:01 ◼   ► Look, obviously you just have to balance it.

00:01:05 ◼   ► Like, is there something I'm giving up

00:01:06 ◼   ► or limiting to do those things?

00:01:07 ◼   ► Well, of course, I'm giving up something else

00:01:10 ◼   ► that I could be doing.

00:01:11 ◼   ► You gotta balance it.

00:01:15 ◼   ► I don't, I mean, one of the reasons I reduced my workload

00:01:20 ◼   ► on the incomparable this year,

00:01:22 ◼   ► after 10 years, 11 years of doing it every week,

00:01:26 ◼   ► is that I had run out of sort of easy subjects of things

00:01:30 ◼   ► that I already knew a lot about, or movies I'd seen a lot,

00:01:33 ◼   ► or all of that.

00:01:33 ◼   ► I was running out of those, and I

00:01:35 ◼   ► was finding the grind of having to have essentially a TV

00:01:39 ◼   ► series, or movie, or book, or series of books

00:01:43 ◼   ► every single week to be too much homework for me.

00:01:47 ◼   ► And so all of my kind of content consumption

00:01:49 ◼   ► was becoming homework for the podcast.

00:01:51 ◼   ► and it was a lot, and the pace was a lot.

00:01:54 ◼   ► And so I cut back.

00:01:55 ◼   ► I'm only doing about half the episodes this year,

00:01:58 ◼   ► and I'm having guest hosts for the other half.

00:02:01 ◼   ► So that's part of it, is like, yeah,

00:02:03 ◼   ► I don't have that much time in the day.

00:02:06 ◼   ► I also think that you may, because so much of my life

00:02:09 ◼   ► is kind of converted into content, I will say,

00:02:12 ◼   ► you may be overestimating how much time I spend

00:02:16 ◼   ► with movies and TV and reading books.

00:02:19 ◼   ► I do, I mean, I read books before I go to bed,

00:02:23 ◼   ► and after dinner, we all sit down and watch a movie

00:02:27 ◼   ► or some TV for a couple of hours.

00:02:29 ◼   ► That's time with, that's family time.

00:02:34 ◼   ► If it's moon night, then my son is there,

00:02:36 ◼   ► and if it's not, then we're watching other stuff,

00:02:38 ◼   ► and it's my wife and me, and that's part of what we do.

00:02:41 ◼   ► I don't know, I mean, that's the thing we like to do.

00:02:47 ◼   ► If I had my evenings back, we would find something else

00:02:50 ◼   ► to do and spend our time in that, right?

00:02:52 ◼   ► Then we would be playing board games or whatever.

00:02:56 ◼   ► It's a thing you have to balance out.

00:02:57 ◼   ► I was thinking the other day,

00:02:58 ◼   ► if I didn't do anything other than tech stuff,

00:03:02 ◼   ► what would my life be like?

00:03:04 ◼   ► And I'm not quite sure I've always had side project stuff.

00:03:08 ◼   ► I'm sure that I would have,

00:03:14 ◼   ► I would probably do more tech stuff to fill some of that,

00:03:18 ◼   ► but part of my work-life balance really is the balance

00:03:21 ◼   ► between the stuff that I do mostly during the day now

00:03:25 ◼   ► that is upgrade and downstream and six colors,

00:03:30 ◼   ► it's that stuff, and the stuff I do kinda in the evenings,

00:03:34 ◼   ► which is reading books and watching TV

00:03:36 ◼   ► or recording the incomparable,

00:03:37 ◼   ► which is generally done in the evenings too.

00:03:39 ◼   ► So I like to kinda have that balance.

00:03:42 ◼   ► I'm fortunate that my hobbies are very similar to my job.

00:03:47 ◼   ► You get to do what you love,

00:03:48 ◼   ► and so part of what I love is the stuff

00:03:51 ◼   ► that I then end up doing as side projects,

00:03:53 ◼   ► which kind of become part of your job.

00:03:56 ◼   ► It can cut the wrong way when everything is a job,

00:04:03 ◼   ► then you have no freedom,

00:04:05 ◼   ► which is one of the reasons why I cut back

00:04:07 ◼   ► on the incomparable,

00:04:08 ◼   ► is I felt like it was eating up too much of my life.

00:04:11 ◼   ► But I've got, you know, there's also stuff that I do that is not those things and I'm

00:04:17 ◼   ► not publishing things to the internet and that's fine. Like, I have a D&D game that

00:04:23 ◼   ► I play on Monday nights occasionally that is not a podcast. It's just friends getting

00:04:27 ◼   ► together. I know, on Zoom. But it's not a podcast. I have to turn off the recording

00:04:31 ◼   ► thing. Yeah, we're doing, Lauren and I are doing curling at our local curling club that

00:04:40 ◼   ► just got a facility in Oakland. If you want to find me, Bay Area, find me at the curling

00:04:46 ◼   ► club once a week-ish. We do stuff like that too. But the big answer is, yeah, I'm sure

00:04:56 ◼   ► there's something I'm giving up, but these are the things that I've chosen to do. It's

00:04:59 ◼   ► like saying, for any hobby, "Myke, what are you giving up to be interested in keyboards?"

00:05:03 ◼   ► It's like, I don't know, right? Something else that you would be doing instead. But

00:05:08 ◼   ► But I'm not, I mean, I guess if I gave it up completely, then I'd spend more time, what,

00:05:14 ◼   ► watching baseball games, listening to music, lounging in the backyard, pulling weeds, mowing

00:05:19 ◼   ► the lawn, like, you know, that's life, you gotta balance all those things.

00:05:24 ◼   ► - So trade-offs.

00:05:25 ◼   ► - Yeah.

00:05:26 ◼   ► - If you would like to send in a question for us to answer on the show, just send out

00:05:28 ◼   ► a tweet with the hashtag SnellTalk, or use question mark SnellTalk in the Relay FM Discord.

00:05:34 ◼   ► The prophecy was foretold. Jason, you have received your studio display already. That

00:05:40 ◼   ► was fast. That was fast. That turned around really fast. I was impressed. In fact, I got

00:05:46 ◼   ► a note that my airbill had been printed before I'd even returned the display. I got that

00:05:52 ◼   ► right after the podcast yesterday. Wow. Or last week. It was one of those things where

00:05:59 ◼   ► is like, oh, this is happening fast.

00:06:01 ◼   ► I am not, okay, so we did upgrade,

00:06:05 ◼   ► which meant that people heard my story.

00:06:09 ◼   ► I'm not entirely convinced that people didn't hear my story

00:06:14 ◼   ► and then check into it and say, this is bad PR,

00:06:18 ◼   ► let's expedite his thing.

00:06:21 ◼   ► I think maybe it just happened though.

00:06:23 ◼   ► I think maybe the timing was right

00:06:24 ◼   ► where it just kind of happened and this is how it turned out.

00:06:27 ◼   ► So the good news is I have it,

00:06:28 ◼   ► it doesn't have big horizontal things on it.

00:06:30 ◼   ► I hope that monitor that they shipped me went somewhere

00:06:33 ◼   ► where somebody could look at it and go,

00:06:34 ◼   ► uh-oh, what is happening here?

00:06:36 ◼   ► Is this a one-off or do we need to fix

00:06:38 ◼   ► our production system? - That one got driven

00:06:39 ◼   ► over to Craig's house.

00:06:40 ◼   ► - I think maybe it goes to--

00:06:43 ◼   ► - Yeah, they're in the Discord, says,

00:06:45 ◼   ► I wonder who is currently posting about their display

00:06:47 ◼   ► not arriving on the day of the promise.

00:06:49 ◼   ► - There was somebody in-- - Someone in the Bay Area.

00:06:51 ◼   ► - Somebody in the six-color Slack was talking about

00:06:53 ◼   ► how theirs just got pushed back a couple of weeks

00:06:55 ◼   ► and somebody else replied,

00:06:56 ◼   ► that's 'cause yours went to Jason.

00:06:57 ◼   ► (laughing)

00:06:59 ◼   ► That's probably what happened.

00:07:00 ◼   ► I'm pretty sure that Bob Mansfield

00:07:05 ◼   ► still takes all the bad hardware,

00:07:07 ◼   ► even though he's retired, they still go to Bob's house.

00:07:09 ◼   ► Gets taken over to Bob's house

00:07:10 ◼   ► and then people come and retrieve from there.

00:07:12 ◼   ► Pretty sure that's what it is.

00:07:13 ◼   ► Craig doesn't want your hardware.

00:07:16 ◼   ► Craig's a software guy, he doesn't want your hardware.

00:07:19 ◼   ► Anyway, I did hear this last week from a lot of people

00:07:22 ◼   ► who work in various aspects of Apple sales and support,

00:07:27 ◼   ► which is not surprising.

00:07:29 ◼   ► The general trend of that was,

00:07:31 ◼   ► this is not supposed to happen like this,

00:07:33 ◼   ► which is good, good to know.

00:07:35 ◼   ► It sounds though like a lot of my guesses

00:07:38 ◼   ► about what happened last week

00:07:39 ◼   ► seem to have been fairly accurate.

00:07:42 ◼   ► The idea I am told by multiple people

00:07:45 ◼   ► is to make the customer satisfied

00:07:48 ◼   ► as quickly and easily as possible.

00:07:50 ◼   ► And in times of plenty where products are available

00:07:53 ◼   ► at the drop of a hat,

00:07:54 ◼   ► The idea is to do a return and a new order,

00:07:57 ◼   ► and the new order will be there in a couple of days,

00:08:00 ◼   ► and it will be a fast turnaround.

00:08:02 ◼   ► And you treat it as a return,

00:08:03 ◼   ► and then they will pluck it off and say, "This is faulty."

00:08:06 ◼   ► But that's the best way to do it in order,

00:08:08 ◼   ► for expediency's sake, to get a new product,

00:08:11 ◼   ► 'cause what you wanna do is just get the product

00:08:13 ◼   ► the consumer wanted in their hands as fast as possible.

00:08:17 ◼   ► But this was a very weird situation

00:08:19 ◼   ► where that wasn't the case.

00:08:20 ◼   ► Doing a new order was not going to get me a new one

00:08:23 ◼   ► as fast as possible.

00:08:24 ◼   ► it was gonna get me a new one in 10 weeks or whatever.

00:08:27 ◼   ► So the right answer was what eventually happened,

00:08:32 ◼   ► which was to mark it as essentially a repair,

00:08:35 ◼   ► which is how it, I think, is how it should always work.

00:08:39 ◼   ► But the other, culturally the other thing,

00:08:43 ◼   ► which is return a new order,

00:08:45 ◼   ► culturally that happens because it's faster

00:08:49 ◼   ► and less complicated for the customer,

00:08:53 ◼   ► even though it's not really how you should do it, right?

00:08:56 ◼   ► But I think Apple has just sort of normalized,

00:08:58 ◼   ► like the most important thing is not following our policy,

00:09:01 ◼   ► it's making the customer happy.

00:09:03 ◼   ► And in most cases that's return and replace.

00:09:05 ◼   ► - And this is one of those things where like,

00:09:07 ◼   ► yeah, sure, maybe that is the fastest way to do it.

00:09:09 ◼   ► But I think that this, that is a process

00:09:12 ◼   ► that should be hidden from the customer.

00:09:14 ◼   ► Like this thing of you have to process a return

00:09:18 ◼   ► and then we'll do a replacement.

00:09:20 ◼   ► - Right, well, this is the thing is that,

00:09:22 ◼   ► So this thing that is built up around

00:09:24 ◼   ► trying to make it the best thing for the customer,

00:09:27 ◼   ► it gets complicated because then you're,

00:09:31 ◼   ► it's not hiding that thing from the customer.

00:09:33 ◼   ► So it turns out the right answer in this case

00:09:35 ◼   ► was to do the thing they don't normally do

00:09:38 ◼   ► in these circumstances 'cause it's less expedient,

00:09:41 ◼   ► which is to say, this is broken.

00:09:44 ◼   ► We're gonna put this in the essentially repair channel.

00:09:47 ◼   ► And by repair, in this case,

00:09:48 ◼   ► they're not gonna repair my one that they sent me.

00:09:51 ◼   ► They're going to get me a new replacement

00:09:52 ◼   ► and they're gonna put that one in the flow

00:09:54 ◼   ► for this one is broken, and then they'll fix it

00:09:56 ◼   ► and sell it, it's refurbished, or they'll throw it away,

00:09:58 ◼   ► or whatever they do with it.

00:09:59 ◼   ► Recycle it, of course, recycle.

00:10:01 ◼   ► So that was the right answer, and we did get there.

00:10:07 ◼   ► I think it would all have worked out a lot better

00:10:10 ◼   ► had the guy on the phone not sent me to the Apple store,

00:10:14 ◼   ► which was, you know, everybody I heard from was,

00:10:16 ◼   ► that's a mistake.

00:10:17 ◼   ► If you don't have an appointment, you really can't do that.

00:10:20 ◼   ► You gotta have a Genius Bar appointment,

00:10:21 ◼   ► guy like made me a Genius Bar appointment and then canceled it and said you can just

00:10:25 ◼   ► go. And it's like no that was not the case. So that was that was where the kind of the

00:10:29 ◼   ► guy got messed up is punting me to the Apple store when he really should never have offered

00:10:33 ◼   ► me my retail store and said here's what we're gonna do I'm gonna send you a form you're

00:10:37 ◼   ► gonna send that back with this air bill PDF you're gonna print it out put them in the

00:10:41 ◼   ► box send it back I'm gonna I'm gonna have a replacement sent to you done and that sort

00:10:45 ◼   ► of didn't happen. And I did get a call from somebody at Apple about this after someone

00:10:52 ◼   ► at Apple heard upgrade. And I told them my story. I basically said, "Look, I already

00:10:58 ◼   ► had the monitor at that point, right? By the time I talked to this guy, I had already gotten

00:11:01 ◼   ► the replacement and it worked fine." But I told them the story and I said, "Here's what

00:11:06 ◼   ► happened to me. Best as I can tell, it's because of this thing. If you have any influence on

00:11:13 ◼   ► clarifying these policies so this doesn't happen

00:11:15 ◼   ► to somebody else, that would be great.

00:11:17 ◼   ► So, but in the end, I've got a display,

00:11:18 ◼   ► it's hovering over my desk, it's on an arm,

00:11:19 ◼   ► I can push it back and lift it up and do all those things,

00:11:23 ◼   ► and it's floating again, and my desk is super clean,

00:11:26 ◼   ► and it looks great, and it's not the nano-textured one,

00:11:30 ◼   ► which I, since I don't have a window behind me,

00:11:32 ◼   ► I actually prefer, 'cause everything's a little bit crisper.

00:11:35 ◼   ► And it's great.

00:11:38 ◼   ► - So, Rami, you have the nano-textured one

00:11:41 ◼   ► as the review unit, right?

00:11:41 ◼   ► - Yeah, yeah.

00:11:42 ◼   ► So now that you've had both of them in your space,

00:11:46 ◼   ► you're happier with the glossy.

00:11:48 ◼   ► - Absolutely, because it's just a little bit crisper.

00:11:51 ◼   ► 'Cause the nano texture, that is a textured display.

00:11:53 ◼   ► And so everything looks a little, this is the trade-off.

00:11:57 ◼   ► Everything looks a little--

00:11:58 ◼   ► - It looks like it's behind something.

00:12:00 ◼   ► - It looks a little less sharp

00:12:01 ◼   ► because there's a texture in front of it.

00:12:03 ◼   ► It's almost diluted.

00:12:05 ◼   ► Like you're losing the blackest blacks.

00:12:08 ◼   ► Everything gets a little grayed up

00:12:10 ◼   ► because of that texture reflecting.

00:12:12 ◼   ► 'cause what it's doing is it's taking whatever light

00:12:14 ◼   ► it is getting and it is diffusely reflecting it,

00:12:17 ◼   ► which is how it is an anti-glare display.

00:12:21 ◼   ► But the downside of that is everything is sort of,

00:12:24 ◼   ► all that light is diffusely reflected

00:12:25 ◼   ► and it kind of reduces the contrast a little bit.

00:12:28 ◼   ► If you're somebody who is,

00:12:30 ◼   ► like you talking about,

00:12:33 ◼   ► you talked to Gray about this on Cortex,

00:12:35 ◼   ► like he is a big nanotexture boy.

00:12:38 ◼   ► And like, I get it.

00:12:40 ◼   ► for people who are sensitive to reflections,

00:12:43 ◼   ► and like, it's amazing that that is available for people.

00:12:47 ◼   ► But my window is to my left.

00:12:50 ◼   ► There is no scenario where I'm gonna turn my desk

00:12:52 ◼   ► with my back to the window.

00:12:53 ◼   ► I don't want that.

00:12:54 ◼   ► I like to look out the window.

00:12:55 ◼   ► And so I'm in a position where I don't need

00:12:58 ◼   ► an anti-glare display, and I'm happy to not have one

00:13:01 ◼   ► because I do think that there's a little bit

00:13:03 ◼   ► of a trade-off there, plus the money.

00:13:04 ◼   ► - I'm assuming there aren't really,

00:13:08 ◼   ► that you have no new, oh, you should get the VESA, right?

00:13:11 ◼   ► It's on the VESA now.

00:13:12 ◼   ► - Yeah. - This has the main difference.

00:13:14 ◼   ► - Yeah, it's just-- - Can I assume

00:13:15 ◼   ► that all went well? - Yeah, it's literally

00:13:17 ◼   ► the same VESA arm that I got when I bought my previous desk

00:13:20 ◼   ► that I've just kept on moving.

00:13:22 ◼   ► And so I had a Dell display on it,

00:13:25 ◼   ► I had the original 5K iMac on it,

00:13:27 ◼   ► I had the iMac Pro on it,

00:13:28 ◼   ► and now I've got this display on it.

00:13:30 ◼   ► But it's much lighter than those iMacs,

00:13:32 ◼   ► so that's kind of funny.

00:13:34 ◼   ► It's a lot easier to kind of move around.

00:13:36 ◼   ► But it's the same arm.

00:13:38 ◼   ► I thought about getting a new arm.

00:13:40 ◼   ► They're probably nice and newer, cooler mounting arms,

00:13:43 ◼   ► but it works fine.

00:13:44 ◼   ► So yeah.

00:13:45 ◼   ► - Why change it up?

00:13:46 ◼   ► - Back to normal.

00:13:47 ◼   ► I mean, with the Mac Studio under the desk now,

00:13:50 ◼   ► it actually is, it feels very much like my old setup.

00:13:54 ◼   ► The difference being there are fewer cables passing over

00:13:57 ◼   ► the, on the monitor arm.

00:13:59 ◼   ► Cause now I don't, I, all the other stuff that used to be

00:14:02 ◼   ► plugged into the back of the iMac is now under the desk

00:14:04 ◼   ► plugged into the back of the Mac studio.

00:14:06 ◼   ► So it's actually a little less cluttered than it used to be.

00:14:09 ◼   ► - A couple of weeks ago,

00:14:11 ◼   ► I think it was a couple of weeks ago,

00:14:12 ◼   ► I mentioned we were talking about the Twitter user

00:14:17 ◼   ► whose name has escaped me right now.

00:14:18 ◼   ► I think the name was Chaos, I think,

00:14:20 ◼   ► who took apart a magic keyboard with touch ID

00:14:25 ◼   ► and was able to extract the touch ID power button from it

00:14:28 ◼   ► so they could make their own little touch ID button

00:14:30 ◼   ► to sit on their desk.

00:14:31 ◼   ► And I vowed to do this myself.

00:14:34 ◼   ► All the parts have arrived

00:14:35 ◼   ► And so I'm gonna do this on stream

00:14:37 ◼   ► and Jason's gonna join me.

00:14:39 ◼   ► So it's gonna be on June 6th.

00:14:41 ◼   ► I'll remind everyone about this next week too.

00:14:43 ◼   ► - Sorry, it's gonna be May.

00:14:44 ◼   ► - I have a real problem right now, Jason,

00:14:46 ◼   ► where May is being erased from my mind.

00:14:49 ◼   ► I keep doing this.

00:14:50 ◼   ► I did this to you.

00:14:51 ◼   ► I've been doing it with lots of things.

00:14:53 ◼   ► I keep saying June 6th when I mean May 6th.

00:14:56 ◼   ► For me right now, April was rolling right into June.

00:14:59 ◼   ► I'm just ready for W2C.

00:15:00 ◼   ► - I love it.

00:15:00 ◼   ► Let's do it.

00:15:01 ◼   ► Let's just skip right over May.

00:15:03 ◼   ► Sorry, May.

00:15:03 ◼   ► You're outta here.

00:15:04 ◼   ► May for one day, May 6th at 9.30am Pacific, 12.30 Eastern,

00:15:11 ◼   ► 5.05pm best time at BST.

00:15:14 ◼   ► That's what that means.

00:15:16 ◼   ► It's British summertime.

00:15:17 ◼   ► So yeah, I'll remind everyone about this next week,

00:15:19 ◼   ► but me and Jason are going to be hanging out for a bit

00:15:21 ◼   ► and I'm going to be trying to extract a circuit board

00:15:24 ◼   ► and a fingerprint sensor from a keyboard.

00:15:29 ◼   ► So that should be fun.

00:15:31 ◼   ► This episode is brought to you by our friends at CleanMyMac X.

00:15:36 ◼   ► The Mac is a crucial tool for work, education and life.

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00:17:40 ◼   ► I hate you.

00:17:42 ◼   ► Oh, hi.

00:17:43 ◼   ► Do you know this? Do you know that I hate you right now?

00:17:46 ◼   ► This is cyberbullying.

00:17:48 ◼   ► You are cyberbullying me.

00:17:49 ◼   ► Wait, what?

00:17:50 ◼   ► I feel like.

00:17:51 ◼   ► I think you are the one, you are actively cyberbullying me

00:17:55 ◼   ► by streaming your playdate.

00:17:57 ◼   ► I watched you stream your playdate

00:17:59 ◼   ► and watched you not be able to play the games.

00:18:01 ◼   ► And I was just getting more and more mad at you, Jason,

00:18:04 ◼   ► because you don't deserve it, all right?

00:18:06 ◼   ► I deserve the playdate.

00:18:08 ◼   ► You don't deserve the playdate.

00:18:09 ◼   ► - I was learning how to play on the stream.

00:18:11 ◼   ► I learned how to play on the stream.

00:18:13 ◼   ► I had a breakthrough on the surfing game

00:18:15 ◼   ► while we were on the stream. - I know,

00:18:16 ◼   ► that was really fun.

00:18:17 ◼   ► That was the one I was talking about.

00:18:18 ◼   ► That was hilarious to me.

00:18:20 ◼   ► You were just like, "Wah!"

00:18:22 ◼   ► Just like spinning the crank wild

00:18:24 ◼   ► for realizing it controls your direction.

00:18:26 ◼   ► - Well, it says crank it up.

00:18:27 ◼   ► It says crank it up.

00:18:28 ◼   ► - It does, it does.

00:18:30 ◼   ► My play date's on the way too.

00:18:32 ◼   ► So I'm hoping I'll have mine by the end of this week

00:18:36 ◼   ► and so we can talk about it

00:18:37 ◼   ► in a little bit more detail next week.

00:18:39 ◼   ► But I wanted to know like what are your

00:18:42 ◼   ► kind of first impressions of the play date?

00:18:45 ◼   ► - I love the hardware.

00:18:46 ◼   ► I wish it had a backlight because it is very hard to use.

00:18:50 ◼   ► I feel like this is the perfect game thing to like play outside because it really needs

00:18:55 ◼   ► to be well lit.

00:18:57 ◼   ► I know why it doesn't have a backlight but I wish it had a backlight because it is hard

00:19:01 ◼   ► to see.

00:19:02 ◼   ► I'm hoping somebody made, I don't know if you remember this Jason but this was always

00:19:05 ◼   ► the thing with the original Gameboys right?

00:19:07 ◼   ► The original Gameboys didn't have lights on them so you could buy these lights that you

00:19:10 ◼   ► would attach them.

00:19:12 ◼   ► I hope somebody makes this for Playdate.

00:19:13 ◼   ► It's like the original Kindle where the early Kindles I had a little clip on book light

00:19:17 ◼   ► for the kindles, which seems so stupid, but at least it made it, I could read at night.

00:19:21 ◼   ► So yeah, hardware feels great. The attention to detail in the software by Panic is great.

00:19:33 ◼   ► Love the setup details, love the sideloading. You can sideload it on your computer, but

00:19:37 ◼   ► you can also drag the file into the web interface on Playdate's website and it'll get synced

00:19:42 ◼   ► to you. So very kindle-like experience is what I would say. It's like you can do it

00:19:47 ◼   ► either way. You can be in their system or you can not be in their system and it doesn't

00:19:51 ◼   ► matter. There are some games out there of varying quality. Honestly, if I have a criticism

00:19:59 ◼   ► of Playdate at this point, it is that I – the first two games of the season one, I appreciate

00:20:09 ◼   ► that one of them is an arcade game and one of them is more like an RPG game and an extended

00:20:13 ◼   ► game. I think that that is a very good bit of of curating the game experience. I think

00:20:20 ◼   ► it's a very smart. I will say that finding the surfing game kind of impenetrable is was

00:20:28 ◼   ► kind of reduced my enthusiasm right because that's one of the two games that are there

00:20:33 ◼   ► and in the long run and I know like it just shipped and there are gonna be more games

00:20:38 ◼   ► coming in. In fact, I get the distinct impression that in this last few days as these products

00:20:42 ◼   ► have started to ship, the people who had been working on Playdate games are like, "Oh, geez,

00:20:47 ◼   ► I need to get it out there." I found one game, in fact, I played it on the stream, there

00:20:50 ◼   ► was a Tetris game that didn't sideload and was very weird. And then when I lost at the

00:20:55 ◼   ► end, it had a very, very, did you see that very bad frame rate problem? Suddenly it reduced

00:21:01 ◼   ► to sort of like one frame every five seconds as it animated the end of the game. And I

00:21:06 ◼   ► I left a note for the developer of that game

00:21:08 ◼   ► and he pushed an update that said,

00:21:11 ◼   ► "Oh yes, I changed the ending

00:21:13 ◼   ► 'cause it turns out that the frame rate was really bad

00:21:15 ◼   ► on the actual hardware."

00:21:16 ◼   ► 'Cause he was just using,

00:21:17 ◼   ► so all these developers are not even using,

00:21:19 ◼   ► or many of them are not even using hardware,

00:21:21 ◼   ► they're just using the development environment.

00:21:25 ◼   ► So, big picture I would say,

00:21:28 ◼   ► what let me down about the play date

00:21:30 ◼   ► is that there weren't enough games to choose from on day one

00:21:33 ◼   ► and I don't know what the answer is there.

00:21:35 ◼   ► I think while it's great that Panic is talking about

00:21:38 ◼   ► doing a catalog app that people can put their games in

00:21:42 ◼   ► so that there can be a place to find Playdate games,

00:21:45 ◼   ► you can sideload them, whatever, but they need,

00:21:48 ◼   ► if not a store, at least a directory.

00:21:51 ◼   ► - They called it a store.

00:21:52 ◼   ► They called it a store.

00:21:53 ◼   ► - It sounds like it will be both.

00:21:54 ◼   ► You could be in their store or you can just be in

00:21:57 ◼   ► as a directory linking to your own place

00:21:58 ◼   ► where people buy it.

00:22:00 ◼   ► - Which is kind of like the Microsoft store.

00:22:01 ◼   ► That's how the Microsoft store works.

00:22:03 ◼   ► - And I know it's early days,

00:22:04 ◼   ► So, you know, when this is shipping to,

00:22:07 ◼   ► in a couple of months,

00:22:08 ◼   ► it'll be shipping to a larger group of people.

00:22:10 ◼   ► I was one of the first people to get one.

00:22:12 ◼   ► So it's early yet.

00:22:13 ◼   ► But that is my real complaint,

00:22:16 ◼   ► is that I feel like out of the box,

00:22:18 ◼   ► it should have a better selection.

00:22:21 ◼   ► I wonder, I actually wonder,

00:22:23 ◼   ► this is talking our discussion of like the binge drop

00:22:26 ◼   ► versus the weekly release.

00:22:28 ◼   ► I kind of wonder, given that they have what, 20 games,

00:22:31 ◼   ► it's like a 10 week season.

00:22:34 ◼   ► I wonder if maybe they should have put four games on

00:22:37 ◼   ► week one instead of two just to have more selection.

00:22:41 ◼   ► It just, that's the part of it that I think

00:22:43 ◼   ► that they've gotten wrong.

00:22:44 ◼   ► And if there's a must have game out there

00:22:46 ◼   ► on the internet now or in the next couple of months

00:22:50 ◼   ► where people are like, well yeah,

00:22:51 ◼   ► but just go get this game for $8 and it's amazing

00:22:53 ◼   ► and then it's worth it, that'll solve this problem too.

00:22:56 ◼   ► Just right now there's kind of nothing.

00:22:58 ◼   ► Although I was happy to get the,

00:23:00 ◼   ► There's a Space Invaders game that is basically unplayable.

00:23:02 ◼   ► You can play it, but you can't win it.

00:23:05 ◼   ► And there's Tetris, which, like I said,

00:23:07 ◼   ► was sort of broken, but was sort of playable.

00:23:09 ◼   ► And honestly, having that little yellow play date

00:23:13 ◼   ► where I can just play Tetris, that kinda hit the spot.

00:23:17 ◼   ► That kind of made me feel happy.

00:23:19 ◼   ► So I just want a little more variety of the games on it,

00:23:22 ◼   ► but it's a beautiful piece of hardware.

00:23:23 ◼   ► And I love the idea of this cute little,

00:23:26 ◼   ► it's so small, cute little thing.

00:23:28 ◼   ► I think by the time they reach critical mass of shipping,

00:23:33 ◼   ► which right now they are not,

00:23:34 ◼   ► for good reason that they're still kind of testing out

00:23:37 ◼   ► their shipping, I wouldn't be surprised if I'm one of the

00:23:40 ◼   ► first international people to receive one.

00:23:42 ◼   ► - Right.

00:23:43 ◼   ► - 'Cause I was very early in the system, like you.

00:23:45 ◼   ► - Yeah, you're a couple before me, so.

00:23:47 ◼   ► - Yeah, and so, you know, I know that they're like,

00:23:50 ◼   ► they're kind of taking baby steps in their shipping,

00:23:52 ◼   ► which I think is the right thing to do,

00:23:54 ◼   ► just 'cause it seems like they're gonna be really

00:23:55 ◼   ► going at scale soon.

00:23:57 ◼   ► My expectation is by the time that people start receiving them at scale, there will

00:24:00 ◼   ► be way more games available.

00:24:02 ◼   ► I'll put a link in the show notes that Zach put out of a wiki.

00:24:08 ◼   ► Someone's keeping a track of some of the community games that are available.

00:24:12 ◼   ► And I watched a really good interview on the Spawn on Me podcast of Cable Sasa.

00:24:17 ◼   ► Kelly was interviewing him.

00:24:19 ◼   ► And they were talking about this exact idea of the season thing.

00:24:26 ◼   ► and Cable's like, "I'm really hoping that people

00:24:31 ◼   ► "are willing to stick with it."

00:24:32 ◼   ► Right?

00:24:33 ◼   ► - Sure.

00:24:34 ◼   ► - That like, the general consensus is sticking with it.

00:24:37 ◼   ► But he said, "However, we do have some tools available

00:24:42 ◼   ► "to us that if it seems that people don't seem to like it,

00:24:46 ◼   ► "that we can take advantage of."

00:24:48 ◼   ► My expectation there is they can maybe increase

00:24:51 ◼   ► really small games or just let someone say,

00:24:53 ◼   ► "Hey, just give me a mall now."

00:24:56 ◼   ► And we'll see how that goes.

00:24:58 ◼   ► - This actually reminds me a lot.

00:25:00 ◼   ► I know I just mentioned it,

00:25:01 ◼   ► but a lot of the conversation that we've had,

00:25:04 ◼   ► and that I know that I've talked about

00:25:06 ◼   ► on a bunch of other podcasts about streaming releases,

00:25:10 ◼   ► binge drop versus weekly drop.

00:25:12 ◼   ► And we talked here about,

00:25:15 ◼   ► very specifically about Apple,

00:25:17 ◼   ► like doing the,

00:25:18 ◼   ► we're gonna give you two or three episodes upfront,

00:25:19 ◼   ► and then it's gonna be weekly.

00:25:21 ◼   ► And this, I was thinking about this with Playdate.

00:25:25 ◼   ► And by the way, Zach in the Discord says it's 24 games,

00:25:28 ◼   ► so it's a 12-week season.

00:25:30 ◼   ► - Yeah, it was originally gonna be 12 weeks

00:25:32 ◼   ► with one game a week,

00:25:33 ◼   ► and then they increased it to two games a week for 12 weeks.

00:25:36 ◼   ► - So this is my take as a very early Playdate person,

00:25:41 ◼   ► is that I think they needed to do it.

00:25:45 ◼   ► I agree with the idea of not dropping 24 games

00:25:48 ◼   ► on the console to begin with, right?

00:25:50 ◼   ► Like, you're gonna miss games.

00:25:53 ◼   ► you're gonna have such an embarrassment of games

00:25:55 ◼   ► that there's gonna be a game that you would spend time with

00:25:58 ◼   ► that you're not gonna spend time with.

00:25:59 ◼   ► And I think it's bad.

00:26:01 ◼   ► I don't think you should do that.

00:26:03 ◼   ► That said, I think starting with those two was a mistake.

00:26:07 ◼   ► I really do.

00:26:08 ◼   ► I think that they need to come out stronger

00:26:13 ◼   ► out of the gate so people are really enthusiastic about it.

00:26:16 ◼   ► - But this is the problem, I think, with the Playdate,

00:26:19 ◼   ► because I have heard from some of the reviewers,

00:26:21 ◼   ► 'cause the reviewers, they got two games a day

00:26:24 ◼   ► for 12 days.

00:26:27 ◼   ► I've seen lots of people say that the surfing game

00:26:30 ◼   ► is one of their favorites.

00:26:32 ◼   ► - I read a review that said the surfing game

00:26:33 ◼   ► was impenetrable, which I nodded about, so.

00:26:36 ◼   ► - Right, but I think this is always gonna be the problem.

00:26:39 ◼   ► - That's the argument for more games, right?

00:26:40 ◼   ► Because you have more chances to get something

00:26:42 ◼   ► that really clicks.

00:26:43 ◼   ► - I think one of the things that is good about this

00:26:45 ◼   ► compared to when it was initially announced

00:26:47 ◼   ► is this idea of sideloading.

00:26:49 ◼   ► They didn't talk about this for a really long time.

00:26:52 ◼   ► I think they actually weren't so clear about it

00:26:54 ◼   ► until like a week ago, like launch day.

00:26:58 ◼   ► The idea of like, hey, you can just go and get these games

00:27:01 ◼   ► from wherever you wanna get them

00:27:02 ◼   ► and you upload them on our web tool

00:27:04 ◼   ► and it gets pushed to your play date.

00:27:05 ◼   ► Which reminds me of the Kindle.

00:27:07 ◼   ► - It is, it is.

00:27:07 ◼   ► - I know you can do it by plugging it into,

00:27:09 ◼   ► but I like that idea, it's like very kindling.

00:27:11 ◼   ► - The difference is if you wanna play it right now,

00:27:13 ◼   ► the best thing to do is sideload it

00:27:14 ◼   ► because when you put it on the,

00:27:16 ◼   ► There's no like force sync, it sort of just happens

00:27:19 ◼   ► eventually and not in the moment.

00:27:21 ◼   ► So that is, I found myself sideloading things

00:27:23 ◼   ► 'cause I wanted them now.

00:27:24 ◼   ► Also there were some things that I could sideload

00:27:25 ◼   ► that I couldn't get into Panix Tool,

00:27:28 ◼   ► which I thought was kind of funny.

00:27:29 ◼   ► That they had put, the developer had,

00:27:32 ◼   ► I think Panix Tool validates like the little text file

00:27:35 ◼   ► that goes with it that says what game is this

00:27:37 ◼   ► and who's it from and sideloading does not care.

00:27:40 ◼   ► So.

00:27:42 ◼   ► - Well that's the way to do it, right?

00:27:42 ◼   ► - Yeah.

00:27:43 ◼   ► - Like that's the kind of the benefit.

00:27:44 ◼   ► - Yeah.

00:27:45 ◼   ► just think it's I think this is really interesting I would be disappointed if

00:27:50 ◼   ► they got rid of this idea because it's the whole idea it's the name oh I agree

00:27:56 ◼   ► right I agree I love the season idea and I actually think it's I would like it to

00:28:01 ◼   ► be sustainable I would like to be able to sign up for a new season of playdate

00:28:04 ◼   ► and have a season premiere and have those roll out like I think it's

00:28:08 ◼   ► actually a really great idea especially for these games that are on this little

00:28:11 ◼   ► handheld that are little fun games having that excitement I love I love

00:28:15 ◼   ► that idea I just I guess what I'm really saying is I would advocate for a the

00:28:20 ◼   ► modified weekly schedule that a lot of streamers are doing now where you start

00:28:24 ◼   ► with a bunch and then roll them out start maybe four is about maybe four or

00:28:30 ◼   ► or maybe it's two and then two the next day and then it's weekly or something

00:28:35 ◼   ► like that like I feel like there's maybe something to tweak there to go out a

00:28:39 ◼   ► little bit stronger. I expect them to tweak it because there was definitely in

00:28:45 ◼   ► the reviews a lot of question about the the the games the quality of the games

00:28:52 ◼   ► if they worked or not but I think it was hidden a little bit in the reviewers

00:28:56 ◼   ► minds because they just got two more tomorrow and for you you know like

00:29:01 ◼   ► you've you got two games you didn't really like and now you're waiting you

00:29:05 ◼   ► you know you may be at what like five days before you would get another two

00:29:09 ◼   ► and so I think I wouldn't be surprised if again by the time they're shipping

00:29:14 ◼   ► wave two or whatever like batch two maybe is four games that you get

00:29:19 ◼   ► especially because the whole idea of the play date was originally it was date

00:29:24 ◼   ► synced for everyone right so like you would get when your play date arrived

00:29:31 ◼   ► all of the games released up to that date.

00:29:34 ◼   ► It wasn't when you got it and then moving on.

00:29:36 ◼   ► So when mine arrived, say mine arrives Monday,

00:29:40 ◼   ► you've got four and I have four,

00:29:42 ◼   ► but they couldn't do this because they couldn't get them out

00:29:45 ◼   ► in the way that they wanted.

00:29:46 ◼   ► - Right, 'cause that is, and I think,

00:29:49 ◼   ► imagine that for a moment.

00:29:50 ◼   ► Imagine that it's a year from now or eight months from now

00:29:53 ◼   ► and there are thousands of play dates out there

00:29:55 ◼   ► and season two starts.

00:29:57 ◼   ► - I think that's why they're gonna do season two

00:29:59 ◼   ► because they'll actually get to live out what they wanted.

00:30:01 ◼   ► - Right, and everybody experiences those games together.

00:30:05 ◼   ► That is perfect.

00:30:08 ◼   ► Like I get why you wouldn't wanna do this now,

00:30:10 ◼   ► 'cause like I said, I'm not saying drop 24 games

00:30:13 ◼   ► on the system when it ships.

00:30:14 ◼   ► I'm not saying that.

00:30:16 ◼   ► But yeah, and it's early days.

00:30:18 ◼   ► I think that's the bottom line is it's early days,

00:30:20 ◼   ► and if you get one of these three months from now

00:30:22 ◼   ► or six months from now,

00:30:23 ◼   ► then you're gonna have lots of content out there

00:30:27 ◼   ► that is gonna be available.

00:30:29 ◼   ► And that's my feeling now is that being this early on,

00:30:32 ◼   ► even though they've had a couple of years to work on this,

00:30:35 ◼   ► it still feels like on the actual game side,

00:30:39 ◼   ► it's just light.

00:30:41 ◼   ► And it may just be that the curtain is only now coming up

00:30:43 ◼   ► and this will be very different in a few weeks.

00:30:45 ◼   ► And I hope so, 'cause the hardware is great.

00:30:47 ◼   ► And I love the idea of this model too.

00:30:49 ◼   ► It's fun.

00:30:50 ◼   ► And it's fun that it's people we know.

00:30:51 ◼   ► Obviously the gaming business,

00:30:53 ◼   ► there's lots of big corporations

00:30:56 ◼   ► that have all sorts of ways of structuring

00:30:57 ◼   ► gaming game rollouts and stuff like that.

00:30:59 ◼   ► But this is like the indie game experiment

00:31:03 ◼   ► that's going on, indie game handheld.

00:31:05 ◼   ► And I like that.

00:31:06 ◼   ► I think it's interesting 'cause we get to debate the models

00:31:09 ◼   ► and they are seeing their plans meet reality right now.

00:31:14 ◼   ► And that's fascinating too, right?

00:31:16 ◼   ► Because they've had two, three, four years

00:31:18 ◼   ► to think about what this would be like.

00:31:20 ◼   ► And now reality will hit and they'll realize

00:31:22 ◼   ► some of their assumptions were wrong

00:31:24 ◼   ► and they're gonna have to adjust.

00:31:25 ◼   ► That's fascinating.

00:31:27 ◼   ► What I love about Last Thing on This, we're gonna be talking about Playdate for weeks, right?

00:31:30 ◼   ► Because I'm gonna want to talk about it more when I get mine, you know, just look.

00:31:34 ◼   ► I mean, but we've been talking about it for years on this show, right?

00:31:37 ◼   ► Like, we've been so excited about it.

00:31:39 ◼   ► But it's been so fascinating to me, like, as I am watching more games media,

00:31:43 ◼   ► just to hear how people refer to Panic.

00:31:47 ◼   ► Like, they are the company from Goose Game and Firewatch.

00:31:51 ◼   ► Yeah.

00:31:52 ◼   ► Right?

00:31:53 ◼   ► It's just interesting, and I don't criticize that, by the way.

00:31:56 ◼   ► Like if you are a video game outlet,

00:31:58 ◼   ► - That's the content.

00:31:59 ◼   ► - Don't talk about transmit, what's the point?

00:32:00 ◼   ► Right, like it doesn't, you know, it's like, oh,

00:32:02 ◼   ► - We all know that they're the company from the truck

00:32:05 ◼   ► of the FTP client, but that's not,

00:32:08 ◼   ► that's not what it is to everyone else.

00:32:11 ◼   ► - I mean, and it's like, this is clearly what Panic! want,

00:32:14 ◼   ► right, Panic! want to be seen as both, and they should be,

00:32:16 ◼   ► 'cause they are, right, they are in that world.

00:32:18 ◼   ► Like, they are both a Mac developer and a game developer.

00:32:22 ◼   ► I actually really wonder what their future is.

00:32:24 ◼   ► I think possibly they will be a games company.

00:32:28 ◼   ► I think that they are on course to be a games company.

00:32:33 ◼   ► And I am really intrigued to see what that ends up at

00:32:37 ◼   ► because there is a lot of money that they can make

00:32:42 ◼   ► from this market because games are so big, right?

00:32:46 ◼   ► And at a certain point,

00:32:48 ◼   ► they may have to make some decisions

00:32:50 ◼   ► and I could really imagine them scaling back

00:32:53 ◼   ► a lot of their Mac stuff to focus on game stuff,

00:32:56 ◼   ► because it's in the DNA of the company anyway.

00:32:59 ◼   ► - It's potentially an iPhone/Mac thing,

00:33:04 ◼   ► where you tap into a very small portion of the games market,

00:33:08 ◼   ► but it's so huge compared to the Mac software market.

00:33:12 ◼   ► - What is that thing that Steve Jobs said,

00:33:14 ◼   ► like that tiny percentage of the phone market

00:33:16 ◼   ► and how big it would make,

00:33:17 ◼   ► like when they announced the iPhone,

00:33:19 ◼   ► when they launched the iPhone,

00:33:20 ◼   ► and they were talking about just getting a slither

00:33:22 ◼   ► the smartphone market how big it would be for them mm-hmm like that well I use

00:33:26 ◼   ► transmit so so hey look they're there I think they're always going to employ Mac

00:33:32 ◼   ► developers at panic but yes it would be very interesting if panic was the games

00:33:38 ◼   ► indie game darling that also makes an FTP client and a development tool on the

00:33:43 ◼   ► side Jason I think they are that now I think they are now maybe so love it

00:33:49 ◼   ► we'll see. I can't wait for mine. I really want it to hurry up. I'm so excited. We're

00:33:55 ◼   ► talking about binging. It is impossible for us not to do some upstream this week because

00:34:00 ◼   ► the news has been... Myke, we did two episodes of downstream last

00:34:05 ◼   ► week. Two! It's an every other week podcast. I'm so happy that you pulled the cord and

00:34:10 ◼   ► did the first ever, the inaugural emergency episode of downstream because, like always,

00:34:17 ◼   ► I know this is why you do this show, and I get it.

00:34:20 ◼   ► Just listening to Julia talk through her thought processes,

00:34:22 ◼   ► it's just like, oh my God,

00:34:23 ◼   ► she's like the smartest person on the planet.

00:34:25 ◼   ► - She is.

00:34:26 ◼   ► - She's just so fricking smart.

00:34:27 ◼   ► So I really implore people listen to downstream episode 16,

00:34:31 ◼   ► because honestly, nothing that I add here

00:34:34 ◼   ► is really gonna be that much value.

00:34:36 ◼   ► You can already hear Jason

00:34:37 ◼   ► have a more intelligent conversation about this.

00:34:40 ◼   ► But CNN+ is dead.

00:34:42 ◼   ► - It's dead.

00:34:43 ◼   ► - And Netflix had a bad quarter.

00:34:46 ◼   ► And yeah, that's basically CNN Plus.

00:34:48 ◼   ► Here's, I'll see if I can do the TLDR here.

00:34:51 ◼   ► CNN Plus is dead.

00:34:53 ◼   ► A lot of takes out there about how it was a flop

00:34:55 ◼   ► and people didn't like it.

00:34:56 ◼   ► Truth is it had nothing to do with its launch.

00:34:58 ◼   ► It had nothing to do with its number of subscribers.

00:35:01 ◼   ► Warner Media was basically spun out by AT&T

00:35:06 ◼   ► and merged with Discovery Communications.

00:35:09 ◼   ► And that finally, that approved and closed like last week

00:35:14 ◼   ► or two weeks ago.

00:35:16 ◼   ► and Discovery, now it's Warner Brothers Discovery as the new company. And the people like in

00:35:21 ◼   ► charge of Warner Brothers Discovery, all the people who were in charge at CNN and Warner

00:35:27 ◼   ► Media left. Like they're out. They're out. And the new team does not want an additional

00:35:34 ◼   ► streaming service devoted to news. Not part of their strategy. They're really talking

00:35:39 ◼   ► about merging I think everything in basically under HBO Max. And so rather than go through

00:35:45 ◼   ► the motions for a while and shut it down or merge it in, they just decided to shut it

00:35:49 ◼   ► down now and then figure out what they're going to do. So this was much more about the

00:35:54 ◼   ► new team coming in and saying, "We don't want this. This is not a direction we want to pursue,"

00:35:59 ◼   ► than it is about. There's literally no, what I said to Julia is there's no realistic subscriber

00:36:04 ◼   ► number in the first three weeks of CNN Plus that would have changed their minds. It literally

00:36:10 ◼   ► could not have happened because that's not what this is about.

00:36:13 ◼   ► - But what an obscene waste of money.

00:36:16 ◼   ► - Right, it is, it depends on what they do with it, right?

00:36:20 ◼   ► Like they need to--

00:36:21 ◼   ► - I mean, they can still do things,

00:36:23 ◼   ► but there was an inconsequential amount of money wasted.

00:36:27 ◼   ► - The marketing was completely wasted.

00:36:28 ◼   ► They signed talent, it's possible they will repurpose

00:36:31 ◼   ► that talent and it won't be wasted.

00:36:33 ◼   ► We don't know what the other part of this is,

00:36:36 ◼   ► but they may do some streaming shows on CNN's app

00:36:39 ◼   ► or their website and put things in HBO Max.

00:36:43 ◼   ► And like, they're not gonna get the marketing budget back

00:36:46 ◼   ► and there are gonna be people who lose their jobs

00:36:48 ◼   ► and they're gonna pay severance

00:36:49 ◼   ► and all of those things are gonna happen.

00:36:51 ◼   ► Like that's absolutely true.

00:36:53 ◼   ► In the aggregate, it remains to be seen

00:36:56 ◼   ► how much of this they choose to salvage

00:36:57 ◼   ► and how much of this they choose to dump.

00:36:59 ◼   ► But you know, the new people coming in have no ego to bruise

00:37:03 ◼   ► about the bad decisions made by the previous regime, right?

00:37:06 ◼   ► It's very easy for them to say, nope.

00:37:09 ◼   ► hand and just wipe it out and that's what's going on here. So yeah, this is, sure, that

00:37:15 ◼   ► old group decided to launch this thing anyway. I have a theory, which is that Jeff Zucker,

00:37:19 ◼   ► who is the head of CNN, basically said, "Look, I know David Zaslav, who's the CEO of the

00:37:24 ◼   ► new combined company, he'll let me do this. We got a plan. It'll be fine." But of course,

00:37:29 ◼   ► Jeff Zucker got fired, and so he wasn't even there. And the other people who were there

00:37:34 ◼   ► all basically lost their jobs, and the new people coming in were not impressed. So that's

00:37:39 ◼   ► my theory is CNN+ was launched, and Julia said as much, it was sort of a, "Well, if

00:37:44 ◼   ► we launch it, then they can't kill it." And they killed it. It didn't matter. They killed

00:37:51 ◼   ► it anyway. They're like, "Aha! What will you do now that we've launched it before you—literally

00:37:55 ◼   ► like a week before you took over, we launched it?" And they're like, "Yeah, we're still

00:37:58 ◼   ► gonna kill it. Sorry." It's like, "We called your bluff," or "We called your bluff that

00:38:03 ◼   ► called our bluff, and now it's dead." The bigger news to me, honestly, though, and I

00:38:07 ◼   ► I think in general.

00:38:09 ◼   ► It's funny that like this could happen

00:38:10 ◼   ► and they could still be big in news and streaming media

00:38:13 ◼   ► is that Netflix lost 200,000 subscribers in Q1

00:38:18 ◼   ► after estimating they would gain 2.5 million.

00:38:22 ◼   ► But I think the bigger part of it is saying

00:38:24 ◼   ► that in the next quarter they're gonna lose

00:38:26 ◼   ► another 2 million paying subscribers.

00:38:28 ◼   ► - What do we know from Apple results?

00:38:29 ◼   ► By the way, Apple results later this week

00:38:31 ◼   ► we'll be talking about charts and numbers next week,

00:38:33 ◼   ► Myke's favorite episode.

00:38:34 ◼   ► - Oh boy, I can't wait.

00:38:35 ◼   ► - Oh yeah, so it's always about like Wall Street

00:38:37 ◼   ► cares about where you're going, not where you've been,

00:38:39 ◼   ► because where you've been is already priced into the stock.

00:38:41 ◼   ► It's where you're going, what they wanna do.

00:38:43 ◼   ► So Netflix losing a little bit.

00:38:45 ◼   ► It is a milestone, but at the same time,

00:38:47 ◼   ► if they hadn't turned off their service in Russia,

00:38:49 ◼   ► they wouldn't have lost.

00:38:50 ◼   ► They would have still gained.

00:38:52 ◼   ► But they say they're gonna lose two million next quarter.

00:38:54 ◼   ► And there are lots of reasons for it.

00:38:55 ◼   ► Julia goes into some of them on downstream.

00:38:57 ◼   ► I think it is a milestone because,

00:39:02 ◼   ► as I said on downstream, one of my favorite quotes ever

00:39:05 ◼   ► is John Madden, the football coach,

00:39:08 ◼   ► saying that winning is a great deodorant.

00:39:11 ◼   ► And I know I've used that quote here

00:39:12 ◼   ► about Apple and the App Store,

00:39:14 ◼   ► but it's also true of Netflix,

00:39:15 ◼   ► which is it's very hard to do cultural change

00:39:18 ◼   ► when you're winning.

00:39:19 ◼   ► Even if parts of what you're doing aren't working,

00:39:22 ◼   ► even if parts of what you're doing

00:39:23 ◼   ► are showing signs of weakness,

00:39:25 ◼   ► it's very hard to make cultural change when you're winning,

00:39:27 ◼   ► 'cause you're winning.

00:39:28 ◼   ► Who cares about this part?

00:39:30 ◼   ► We're making money, we're growing, it doesn't matter.

00:39:33 ◼   ► And then you're not winning,

00:39:35 ◼   ► And all of a sudden, like what happened with this is that

00:39:38 ◼   ► during the, it wasn't even a press release,

00:39:40 ◼   ► like during the commentary,

00:39:42 ◼   ► after announcing that they had lost subscribers,

00:39:45 ◼   ► the CEO of Netflix said,

00:39:48 ◼   ► "Oh yeah, we're gonna do an ad tier."

00:39:50 ◼   ► - It sounded so desperate.

00:39:52 ◼   ► - And it was desperate, but what he's really doing

00:39:55 ◼   ► is trying to send a message to investors, to Wall Street,

00:39:58 ◼   ► saying, "No, no, no, we've got plans.

00:40:00 ◼   ► Like this, we're gonna do this."

00:40:01 ◼   ► But they've been so adamantly like,

00:40:03 ◼   ► "No, no, we are a premium service

00:40:05 ◼   ► that we don't have that.

00:40:06 ◼   ► And immediately, oh yeah, we're gonna do an ad tier too.

00:40:09 ◼   ► But that was a sacred cow that is gone now.

00:40:11 ◼   ► And I think that is what I think we have to watch

00:40:14 ◼   ► at Netflix now, is they are now,

00:40:18 ◼   ► they're in a great position.

00:40:20 ◼   ► They've spent the last decade being first in streaming.

00:40:24 ◼   ► And it means they are now a giant of entertainment

00:40:27 ◼   ► up there with Disney and HBO and all the rest, great.

00:40:31 ◼   ► But now they're in, they've gone from being like

00:40:35 ◼   ► the land rush to being at cruising speed,

00:40:37 ◼   ► where they are just in the trenches.

00:40:40 ◼   ► I'm mixing all the metaphors here, but right,

00:40:41 ◼   ► they're fighting it out now.

00:40:43 ◼   ► The big expansion period is over,

00:40:45 ◼   ► and now they just have to run themselves

00:40:46 ◼   ► like an entertainment company,

00:40:48 ◼   ► and it means they have to think about ads.

00:40:51 ◼   ► It means they have to think about their development program

00:40:53 ◼   ► where they, you know, they drop everything.

00:40:56 ◼   ► They don't market it very well,

00:40:57 ◼   ► they drop it and then they move on.

00:40:59 ◼   ► They do a lot of quantity,

00:41:00 ◼   ► but the quality is really not there.

00:41:02 ◼   ► They don't have a lot of banner, like high profile stuff

00:41:05 ◼   ► that really brings people in,

00:41:06 ◼   ► like how Disney has been able to do it

00:41:09 ◼   ► with Star Wars and Marvel.

00:41:11 ◼   ► - I think HBO is a better comparison there

00:41:15 ◼   ► because like Disney have it in the pocket already, right?

00:41:20 ◼   ► They've got the people you wanna hear about.

00:41:23 ◼   ► Like they've got Star Wars, they've got Marvel.

00:41:27 ◼   ► HBO have to create new IP, right?

00:41:31 ◼   ► They're in the same boat as Netflix, really.

00:41:32 ◼   ► - Yeah, but they've got DC,

00:41:34 ◼   ► they've got some intellectual property there, right?

00:41:36 ◼   ► Theoretically, Harry Potter--

00:41:37 ◼   ► - Sure, but HBO, I feel like HBO Max

00:41:38 ◼   ► has been creating a bunch of shows, right,

00:41:40 ◼   ► that are like, these are brand new things

00:41:41 ◼   ► you've not heard about before, and you wanna watch 'em.

00:41:44 ◼   ► - But the big picture here is that, yeah,

00:41:45 ◼   ► is that Netflix has really become,

00:41:49 ◼   ► the perception of Netflix is that

00:41:51 ◼   ► they're just a fire hose of content.

00:41:53 ◼   ► And that even when there's something big

00:41:54 ◼   ► that's coming to Netflix that people wanna see

00:41:57 ◼   ► that they don't know about it.

00:41:59 ◼   ► And then if you are not paying attention

00:42:01 ◼   ► the one or two weeks they're promoting it,

00:42:03 ◼   ► you don't even know that it happened.

00:42:05 ◼   ► Like it's really easy to like love a show

00:42:06 ◼   ► and then miss that it came back

00:42:09 ◼   ► because of the way Netflix has approached this.

00:42:11 ◼   ► And what we're gonna see is Netflix

00:42:13 ◼   ► is gonna change that too.

00:42:14 ◼   ► As easily as Netflix said,

00:42:16 ◼   ► "Oh no, we're gonna do a cheaper ad tier."

00:42:18 ◼   ► And they're not gonna put ads on your Netflix,

00:42:20 ◼   ► but they are going to offer Netflix for cheaper

00:42:22 ◼   ► if you watch ads.

00:42:23 ◼   ► That's what they're gonna do.

00:42:24 ◼   ► like literally everybody but Apple so far is doing.

00:42:28 ◼   ► So they're gonna do that,

00:42:29 ◼   ► but they are gonna change the,

00:42:30 ◼   ► they're gonna experiment more with the binge drop thing

00:42:32 ◼   ► and going back to maybe a weekly schedule.

00:42:34 ◼   ► They're gonna change what they develop.

00:42:36 ◼   ► They're probably gonna develop fewer things.

00:42:38 ◼   ► They might, and I know this seems like kind of a wild idea,

00:42:41 ◼   ► they might be a little less quick with the trigger

00:42:43 ◼   ► of canceling a show after two seasons if it's promising,

00:42:47 ◼   ► because they might realize that they actually need

00:42:49 ◼   ► to cultivate that and build that catalog

00:42:51 ◼   ► where things have a satisfying ending

00:42:53 ◼   ► instead of just being cut off because it doesn't matter,

00:42:56 ◼   ► it's all just water in the fire hose, right?

00:42:58 ◼   ► Like, we will see Netflix questioning now

00:43:01 ◼   ► all of its sort of sacred cows

00:43:03 ◼   ► that have made Netflix Netflix,

00:43:05 ◼   ► which is good because if you compare Netflix

00:43:06 ◼   ► to the policies of all of its competitors,

00:43:09 ◼   ► so many of them are outliers,

00:43:11 ◼   ► and they're really not outliers for good reasons.

00:43:13 ◼   ► They're outliers because Netflix went first,

00:43:16 ◼   ► made some decisions,

00:43:18 ◼   ► and has not had any need to revisit them.

00:43:20 ◼   ► So it's gonna be fascinating to watch

00:43:22 ◼   ► the changes at Netflix now that they're literally just playing in the big leagues, which is

00:43:28 ◼   ► great, but they're playing in the big leagues with HBO Max and Disney and then down the

00:43:33 ◼   ► line Paramount Plus and Apple TV Plus and stuff like that. They are in it now and it's

00:43:40 ◼   ► a struggle for them. So it's going to be a challenge for them.

00:43:45 ◼   ► Rumors continue that Apple have actually already made a deal for NFL Sunday Ticket. This is

00:43:52 ◼   ► from Matthew Belloni at Puck News. "My sources say it's apples to lose at this point. One

00:43:59 ◼   ► source told me this weekend that the deal is actually done and is being kept quiet at

00:44:03 ◼   ► Apple's request." Right, so for people who don't know, NFL Sunday Ticket is how you watch

00:44:08 ◼   ► all the NFL games that are out of your local market. So your local TV stations are showing

00:44:12 ◼   ► a couple of games. But in the NFL, there are like whatever, 14 games on a Sunday? Something

00:44:20 ◼   ► like that, that are nationally, they're not nationally televised, they're only on local

00:44:24 ◼   ► stations. So if you're a fan of an out-of-market team, or if you just want to watch like the

00:44:28 ◼   ► best teams and not your local teams, I used to be a Sunday Ticket subscriber. It's great.

00:44:34 ◼   ► And it's been a DirecTV exclusive, so basically people would get satellite dishes on their

00:44:38 ◼   ► roofs just for this product. It was a great driver of satellite TV into people's homes,

00:44:46 ◼   ► which is why they spent so much money on it. Now, Apple is going to do something different

00:44:51 ◼   ► with it, although I think it's similar, and I'll get to that in a minute, but I totally

00:44:56 ◼   ► believe that Apple's already made this deal, and it's just quiet because I think that's

00:44:58 ◼   ► what happened with Major League Baseball, it's the same thing, and they just waited

00:45:01 ◼   ► until they had an event to announce it. I totally believe they're doing this. I think

00:45:05 ◼   ► going to be a big deal because more people will have access to this product than currently

00:45:11 ◼   ► do because they don't have satellite TV, but they have the internet. I have some questions

00:45:16 ◼   ► about like bars and things that do Sunday Ticket. I wonder if that will be belonging

00:45:20 ◼   ► to Apple or whether maybe the NFL will offer an alternate kind of package that's for public

00:45:27 ◼   ► exhibition stuff because there's a question of like, how can you put on 10, can your internet

00:45:32 ◼   ► in your bar handle 10 different HD streams of different Apple things on all of your TVs,

00:45:40 ◼   ► right? Like, I wonder about that, but that's like a minor thing that there's probably a

00:45:44 ◼   ► technical solution for or a contractual solution for. But no, it's another example like with

00:45:51 ◼   ► baseball of Apple getting into sports and having, I think, I think they'll charge for

00:45:56 ◼   ► this. I think this won't just be an Apple TV+ thing. I think they'll probably be a premium,

00:46:01 ◼   ► you know, Apple TV Pro Max, something to get this.

00:46:06 ◼   ► But I think that Apple's motivations are broader,

00:46:10 ◼   ► which I guess brings me to my theory, Myke.

00:46:12 ◼   ► I told you I had a theory that I wanted to get out.

00:46:13 ◼   ► - Yeah, I wanna hear your theory.

00:46:14 ◼   ► - All right, so I know a lot of people talking

00:46:18 ◼   ► about the baseball thing and the NFL thing too,

00:46:21 ◼   ► and saying like, well, Apple's gonna pay more,

00:46:24 ◼   ► even though they're giving away the baseball games for now.

00:46:26 ◼   ► The goal is just to get people to try Apple TV Plus

00:46:30 ◼   ► and drive people to subscribe eventually

00:46:33 ◼   ► 'cause they're gonna wanna do it

00:46:35 ◼   ► and then they'll get their money and that's what it's for.

00:46:37 ◼   ► Get people into Apple service ecosystem.

00:46:40 ◼   ► My theory, and I think the Sunday Ticket thing

00:46:42 ◼   ► goes along with this, is that they're actually doing

00:46:44 ◼   ► something that is kinda like what DirecTV did,

00:46:47 ◼   ► which is what you wanna do

00:46:49 ◼   ► is increase your addressable market.

00:46:51 ◼   ► So in the case of the sports stuff,

00:46:54 ◼   ► I think it's another way for them to drive adoption

00:46:58 ◼   ► of devices that can play Apple TV+ content,

00:47:03 ◼   ► which means devices with a TV app.

00:47:04 ◼   ► Not Apple TV boxes necessarily,

00:47:07 ◼   ► but devices that have the TV app.

00:47:09 ◼   ► I was thinking about this because of my friend Greg,

00:47:12 ◼   ► Greg Noss, who I've known since college.

00:47:14 ◼   ► He's a Dodger fan, I don't hold that against him.

00:47:19 ◼   ► But, well I do a little bit, but it's okay.

00:47:20 ◼   ► He holds me being a Giants fan against me, it's fair.

00:47:23 ◼   ► Rivals.

00:47:24 ◼   ► So he was complaining,

00:47:25 ◼   ► the Dodgers were on Friday Night Baseball, week before last. And he said, and I said,

00:47:32 ◼   ► "It's free, you don't have to pay Apple." He was complaining about having to pay Apple,

00:47:36 ◼   ► which is a common complaint, right? It's like, "I already pay for the thing to get the Dodgers

00:47:39 ◼   ► and now this game isn't on and Apple's supposed to want my money for it? What is that about?"

00:47:44 ◼   ► But what I realized is, "Okay, well, it's free." And his response was, "Well, yeah,

00:47:47 ◼   ► but I have to watch it on a computer." And I said, "Do you not have a device that will

00:47:51 ◼   ► put Apple TV app on your television set?" And he said, "No, I don't. None of my TVs

00:47:57 ◼   ► support it, and I don't have a streaming box that supports it, so I would have to

00:48:01 ◼   ► watch it on a computer." And I thought, well, this is one of the reasons Apple is

00:48:06 ◼   ► doing this. Apple is doing this in part, at least, this is my theory, because what

00:48:12 ◼   ► it really wants to do is not just get people to sign up for Apple TV+ or

00:48:16 ◼   ► sample Apple TV Plus. But what they also want to do is motivate people to buy equipment

00:48:25 ◼   ► and you know it could be a new TV sure but it could also be a $20 Roku stick right? These

00:48:29 ◼   ► things aren't that expensive actually. It means you have to go down to the store. You

00:48:33 ◼   ► can probably get one at a convenience store. You certainly can get one at Target or Walmart.

00:48:37 ◼   ► I got one for my mom. A $20 Roku box or stick or whatever or an Amazon one if you want to

00:48:42 ◼   ► do that. Buying a relatively cheap thing that you attach to your TV, or setting up your

00:48:51 ◼   ► TV's smart features that you haven't set up, whatever it is. And if Greg did that, if Greg

00:48:57 ◼   ► spent $20, bought a Roku stick, attached it to his TV so he could watch The Dodgers on

00:49:01 ◼   ► Friday night, he's now part of the potential addressable audience for Apple TV. Not all

00:49:07 ◼   ► those people are gonna buy Apple TV. But I think it actually benefits Apple to

00:49:13 ◼   ► have people have TV sets with smart features in them that include the TV app.

00:49:18 ◼   ► And it also kind of benefits everybody, right? It also benefits anybody else who

00:49:24 ◼   ► who might not have been addressable before. But it certainly gets Apple now.

00:49:28 ◼   ► How do you get people, because it's only really recent TVs and boxes that support

00:49:32 ◼   ► the TV app, because Apple made that deal a couple years ago, right? Two, three years

00:49:35 ◼   ► ago. Well, this is a great way to motivate people that, and NFL Sunday

00:49:39 ◼   ► Ticket will be a great way to motivate people to do that. And then, you know, if

00:49:43 ◼   ► you buy a $20 Roku stick for baseball, maybe you stick around, maybe you don't.

00:49:48 ◼   ► But, so that's part of my theory about one of the calculations they're

00:49:53 ◼   ► making here is to actually, how do we get people in a position where they could

00:49:58 ◼   ► even consider watching Apple TV Plus? And here you go. You don't have to pay for

00:50:04 ◼   ► for the baseball game you just have to make sure that you've got an app that

00:50:07 ◼   ► supports it. I think that's interesting it is funny right like because it

00:50:12 ◼   ► definitely severs that idea of like hardware software talking together like

00:50:19 ◼   ► that's what we do at Apple I think that they do have to let go some of the

00:50:22 ◼   ► hardware part for the service part right like we just have to try and make the

00:50:27 ◼   ► best apps we can on the hardware that we have available to us I did see like on a

00:50:30 ◼   ► a similar point, Charlie Chapman, I saw tweet the other day saying, "I guess by acquiring

00:50:36 ◼   ► those MLB games," writes, "Apple kind of bought a bunch of native local news coverage across

00:50:42 ◼   ► the whole country explaining exactly what Apple TV is and how to use it."

00:50:46 ◼   ► Yeah. Everybody's favorite baseball team will explain at some point or newspaper or sports

00:50:53 ◼   ► website or whatever, they're all going to have to explain week by week to fans of new

00:50:57 ◼   ► teams every Friday, here's how you get Apple TV set up." And again, that goes hand in hand,

00:51:05 ◼   ► right? Because it may be, if you don't have this and you want to watch it on your TV,

00:51:09 ◼   ► go buy a Roku stick. And you're like, "Well, okay, that's not an Apple TV box, so why would

00:51:16 ◼   ► Apple do that?" And the answer is, if they can get in front of them with the TV app anyway,

00:51:22 ◼   ► it's good for Apple.

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00:53:04 ◼   ► This is one of the weirder things I've seen you put in our document. It says, "Jason wants

00:53:08 ◼   ► to talk about Apple Park logistics."

00:53:10 ◼   ► - Right, yeah, I do because it's one of those things,

00:53:14 ◼   ► you know it, when you listen to a podcast

00:53:15 ◼   ► and you wanna talk back to it and you can't

00:53:17 ◼   ► because you're just a listener.

00:53:18 ◼   ► So I have-- - You just talk about it

00:53:19 ◼   ► on your own podcast. - I have my own podcast.

00:53:21 ◼   ► That's right. - Yeah.

00:53:23 ◼   ► - The talk show episode 343, it's a really great episode.

00:53:25 ◼   ► It's Paul Kapasas from Rogue Amoeba.

00:53:26 ◼   ► They talk about baseball and audio hijack,

00:53:30 ◼   ► near and dear to my heart, both of them, it's great.

00:53:33 ◼   ► They were speculating a lot about this thing

00:53:34 ◼   ► that we talked about a couple weeks ago,

00:53:36 ◼   ► the idea of the special event on the day

00:53:39 ◼   ► of the WWDC keynote that Apple says will be happening

00:53:42 ◼   ► in person with developers and students at Apple Park, right?

00:53:47 ◼   ► In person where they'll watch the videos on a big screen.

00:53:52 ◼   ► And my understanding is it's outside.

00:53:56 ◼   ► I imagine it's gonna be in the ring somewhere,

00:53:59 ◼   ► whether it's the rainbow stage or a modified,

00:54:03 ◼   ► the only reason it might not be the rainbow stage

00:54:05 ◼   ► is maybe they need to modify it

00:54:06 ◼   ► in order to have more people there,

00:54:07 ◼   ► but they've already got a big stage set up.

00:54:09 ◼   ► so it seems like the best place.

00:54:11 ◼   ► What was interesting, so they were speculating about it,

00:54:16 ◼   ► and I just wanted to go over this as somebody

00:54:18 ◼   ► who's been to a bunch of events

00:54:19 ◼   ► at the Steve Jobs Theater now.

00:54:21 ◼   ► I really do believe, as I said on a past upgrade,

00:54:26 ◼   ► this is gonna be a relatively small number of people

00:54:28 ◼   ► brought in to the inside of the park,

00:54:30 ◼   ► to that stage or something like it,

00:54:32 ◼   ► for kind of a PR and photo opportunity.

00:54:36 ◼   ► You know, we're starting to get the community together,

00:54:38 ◼   ► we handpick some developers and we have a bunch

00:54:40 ◼   ► of student developers we wanna show off, right?

00:54:42 ◼   ► Apple loves that, like to have that kind of opportunity.

00:54:46 ◼   ► I will say as a sidebar, and this is a journalist problem,

00:54:49 ◼   ► but I'm dreading being invited to come to the event

00:54:54 ◼   ► to interview the fans or students or whatever who are there,

00:54:59 ◼   ► because it's really important to cover the actual content

00:55:04 ◼   ► of the keynote.

00:55:06 ◼   ► and I'm only one person.

00:55:10 ◼   ► I can't cover the content of the keynote

00:55:12 ◼   ► and cover people watching the keynote, right?

00:55:16 ◼   ► Like if I had to choose,

00:55:18 ◼   ► I would choose the content of the keynote.

00:55:19 ◼   ► So I'm troubled by that a little bit.

00:55:21 ◼   ► I'm actually kind of afraid of that.

00:55:22 ◼   ► I'm hoping that they won't make me make that decision.

00:55:25 ◼   ► - Make you, but sure.

00:55:28 ◼   ► - Well, you know, it's very hard to turn down

00:55:30 ◼   ► a request by Apple to go to Apple Park and all of that,

00:55:33 ◼   ► and yet it might make my coverage worse.

00:55:35 ◼   ► And so, anyway, so what I want to talk about though

00:55:39 ◼   ► is the logistics of it, because Gruber and Kefauzis

00:55:41 ◼   ► were talking about this a little bit.

00:55:43 ◼   ► And I don't know about Jon's experience going to events

00:55:46 ◼   ► at the Steve Jobs Theater and how he gets there.

00:55:48 ◼   ► And I don't know if he rents a car

00:55:50 ◼   ► or if he just takes an Uber or something

00:55:52 ◼   ► to the Steve Jobs Theater.

00:55:53 ◼   ► He is right in when he talked about access

00:55:56 ◼   ► to Apple Park versus Infinite Loop.

00:55:58 ◼   ► Infinite Loop, you could just go there, like even now,

00:56:02 ◼   ► but certainly even back in the day

00:56:03 ◼   ► when it was the HQ of Apple,

00:56:05 ◼   ► you could just get off the freeway, get off 280,

00:56:08 ◼   ► you make a right turn at the end of the off-ramp,

00:56:10 ◼   ► make a left turn at the light,

00:56:12 ◼   ► and then a left into Infinite Loop.

00:56:15 ◼   ► And you're on the loop,

00:56:16 ◼   ► and you can park in the parking lot

00:56:17 ◼   ► where the employees park,

00:56:19 ◼   ► and the company store was in,

00:56:22 ◼   ► I don't know if it's still there,

00:56:23 ◼   ► maybe it's still there,

00:56:24 ◼   ► is in Infinite Loop 1.

00:56:25 ◼   ► You're literally in the building that Apple people are in,

00:56:29 ◼   ► but there's a little store at the beginning of it.

00:56:32 ◼   ► It's just right there.

00:56:33 ◼   ► When they, it was designed as an office park

00:56:35 ◼   ► when Apple was not what Apple is now.

00:56:37 ◼   ► So Apple Park was designed as a fortress.

00:56:40 ◼   ► And so as a result, there is a visitor's center there

00:56:42 ◼   ► with an Apple store.

00:56:44 ◼   ► It is across, and you've been there, right?

00:56:46 ◼   ► - Yeah.

00:56:48 ◼   ► - It's across Tantao Avenue.

00:56:50 ◼   ► It's the Tantao visitor's center.

00:56:53 ◼   ► So it's a two lane street.

00:56:54 ◼   ► It's across the street from Apple Park.

00:56:56 ◼   ► But it's not really across the street from Apple Park.

00:56:58 ◼   ► It's across the street from the fence and the embankment

00:57:02 ◼   ► and the trees and then in the distance

00:57:04 ◼   ► that you can see their ring, right?

00:57:06 ◼   ► It's not close.

00:57:07 ◼   ► - No, you just get like a, you know it's out there.

00:57:10 ◼   ► - Yeah, I can sort of see it through the trees

00:57:13 ◼   ► and it was definitely built to keep all the fans

00:57:16 ◼   ► who came to Infinite Loop at arm's length from Apple Park.

00:57:18 ◼   ► That's the whole purpose of that.

00:57:19 ◼   ► - One of the things I find so interesting

00:57:22 ◼   ► is you can go up on the roof, right?

00:57:23 ◼   ► You can look at it, right?

00:57:24 ◼   ► And the thing that I find so interesting about that,

00:57:28 ◼   ► as you say, it's not super close.

00:57:30 ◼   ► It's like kind of across the street.

00:57:31 ◼   ► you can't, at least with the last time I went there,

00:57:35 ◼   ► with the wide angle lens,

00:57:36 ◼   ► you can't get a photo of the whole rings,

00:57:39 ◼   ► just how big Apple Park is.

00:57:41 ◼   ► Like it's so large, you zoom all the way out

00:57:44 ◼   ► and you still can't, you have to panorama

00:57:46 ◼   ► if you want to get an image of the entire,

00:57:48 ◼   ► like the building.

00:57:50 ◼   ► - Yep, so it is, it's big.

00:57:53 ◼   ► The Steve Jobs Theater, which I have been to,

00:57:56 ◼   ► you know, what you're doing is you walk across the street,

00:57:58 ◼   ► there's a, essentially like a pass through,

00:58:01 ◼   ► a check-in desk building there that you,

00:58:06 ◼   ► for an event at the Steve Jobs Theater

00:58:07 ◼   ► or a briefing or whatever, you check in

00:58:10 ◼   ► and then they pass you through to the other side.

00:58:12 ◼   ► It's very weird, it's a mirrored building,

00:58:14 ◼   ► so both sides are exactly the same, it's very strange.

00:58:17 ◼   ► So you pass through to the inner universe of Apple Park

00:58:20 ◼   ► and then you go up, if you're going to Steve Jobs Theater,

00:58:22 ◼   ► you go up the hill to the left, to the south,

00:58:26 ◼   ► and Steve Jobs Theater is there.

00:58:27 ◼   ► Steve Jobs Theater is at a remove

00:58:29 ◼   ► from the actual proper Apple Park.

00:58:31 ◼   ► It's kind of off on the edge.

00:58:33 ◼   ► So you're not actually close to the ring

00:58:36 ◼   ► when you're at the Steve Jobs Theater.

00:58:38 ◼   ► So I think they could do it,

00:58:41 ◼   ► like they're doing an event with how many people

00:58:43 ◼   ► inside the ring, like they could totally do it

00:58:45 ◼   ► because what they would do is they would set up

00:58:47 ◼   ► the same thing where you would go from the visitor center

00:58:49 ◼   ► and you'd pass through showing that you're approved.

00:58:52 ◼   ► And then you would be sent off to the right

00:58:55 ◼   ► instead, presumably, and they would have,

00:58:58 ◼   ► and they don't let you run free.

00:59:00 ◼   ► There's no free roaming at Apple Park.

00:59:01 ◼   ► - The doors are all locked.

00:59:03 ◼   ► - Well, when you're going to the Steve Jobs Theater,

00:59:06 ◼   ► it's several hundred yards uphill to get to the theater.

00:59:11 ◼   ► And I will just tell you, not 10 yards goes by

00:59:16 ◼   ► that there isn't an Apple employee there

00:59:17 ◼   ► being very friendly and welcoming you

00:59:19 ◼   ► and telling you where to go.

00:59:21 ◼   ► But like, you're not alone at the...

00:59:26 ◼   ► Now I've been there for a briefing.

00:59:27 ◼   ► - This way, sir.

00:59:28 ◼   ► - I've been there for a briefing

00:59:29 ◼   ► and that hasn't been the case.

00:59:30 ◼   ► And it's been a little eerie 'cause I'm like,

00:59:32 ◼   ► I could just take off and run and where would I go?

00:59:34 ◼   ► But then that wouldn't be that great.

00:59:36 ◼   ► So, but my point is they do crowd control.

00:59:39 ◼   ► They're not gonna let you go off the path.

00:59:41 ◼   ► So they would have a path that would take you

00:59:42 ◼   ► to whatever point they're ushering people through

00:59:45 ◼   ► to get to inside the ring,

00:59:46 ◼   ► to a theater that was inside the ring,

00:59:48 ◼   ► assuming that that's where it's gonna be.

00:59:50 ◼   ► Shouldn't be a problem.

00:59:51 ◼   ► So there's questions about that.

00:59:52 ◼   ► I don't think it'll be a problem.

00:59:53 ◼   ► But here's the piece of info that I wanted to dump

00:59:56 ◼   ► that I think that they didn't really get to in the talk show

00:59:59 ◼   ► that I want to mention, which is,

01:00:00 ◼   ► there is an underground parking lot

01:00:01 ◼   ► beneath the visitor center.

01:00:03 ◼   ► It is enormous.

01:00:04 ◼   ► It's at least two levels.

01:00:05 ◼   ► I think it might be more levels than that.

01:00:06 ◼   ► And they're very, very large levels.

01:00:09 ◼   ► So in terms of getting people to drive to Apple Park,

01:00:14 ◼   ► for the people who are not like Ubering there,

01:00:17 ◼   ► to drive to Apple Park and park at the visitor center

01:00:21 ◼   ► on a day where there's a special event,

01:00:22 ◼   ► so they're not gonna let any employees park there,

01:00:25 ◼   ► it's just gonna be invited guests.

01:00:28 ◼   ► Trust me, they can get a lot of people to park

01:00:32 ◼   ► and walk across the street and go to the event.

01:00:34 ◼   ► It's not a problem.

01:00:35 ◼   ► That parking lot is built for that.

01:00:37 ◼   ► There are an enormous number of parking spaces under there.

01:00:41 ◼   ► I don't think it's a problem.

01:00:43 ◼   ► Even if it was more people than could fit

01:00:44 ◼   ► in the Steve Jobs Theater,

01:00:46 ◼   ► I don't think it would be a problem.

01:00:47 ◼   ► It's certainly not a problem.

01:00:48 ◼   ► Like I parked down there.

01:00:50 ◼   ► One time I had to go down an extra level

01:00:52 ◼   ► and like it was kind of creepy

01:00:54 ◼   ► and there's nobody down there.

01:00:55 ◼   ► So what I'm saying is it's not a big deal

01:00:59 ◼   ► to get people in Apple Park.

01:01:02 ◼   ► Now, I am sure this is not part

01:01:04 ◼   ► of Apple's original plan, right?

01:01:05 ◼   ► Their whole plan was Steve Jobs Theater.

01:01:07 ◼   ► (laughs)

01:01:08 ◼   ► The whole plan was you park in the underground lot,

01:01:12 ◼   ► go across the street, go in the doors, go to the left,

01:01:15 ◼   ► Steve Jobs Theater, big event.

01:01:17 ◼   ► - We built this beautiful state of the art,

01:01:19 ◼   ► incredible facility.

01:01:20 ◼   ► - Absolutely.

01:01:21 ◼   ► - For people to come and watch our presentations.

01:01:22 ◼   ► - But COVID, and so they're gonna do an open air thing.

01:01:25 ◼   ► And like, great, I think it's great improvisation.

01:01:27 ◼   ► But I just wanted to say,

01:01:30 ◼   ► I don't think that this is one of those things

01:01:32 ◼   ► where you can say, well,

01:01:33 ◼   ► I don't really think they're gonna have,

01:01:34 ◼   ► I mean, I don't think they're gonna have

01:01:35 ◼   ► 5,000 people in there,

01:01:37 ◼   ► but I think that they can make the logistics work just fine.

01:01:42 ◼   ► People are talking about a bus,

01:01:44 ◼   ► like where would the bus come from?

01:01:46 ◼   ► 'Cause this is not like,

01:01:47 ◼   ► it's not like the developers and guests,

01:01:49 ◼   ► maybe some of the special guests

01:01:51 ◼   ► would be translated over there.

01:01:52 ◼   ► - Maybe the students.

01:01:53 ◼   ► I could imagine them picking up the students

01:01:55 ◼   ► from somewhere in San Francisco.

01:01:56 ◼   ► - Sure, if they're being put up somewhere.

01:01:58 ◼   ► But so many of these things are gonna be just like people,

01:02:01 ◼   ► look, it's the suburbs, they're just gonna show up.

01:02:03 ◼   ► - I wouldn't be surprised if they had a group rate again

01:02:05 ◼   ► at a hotel like they used to do at WWDC.

01:02:08 ◼   ► - Could be, I mean, shuttle buses can happen.

01:02:09 ◼   ► But I guess what I'm just saying is,

01:02:12 ◼   ► if you invited literally just people from the Bay Area

01:02:14 ◼   ► and told them to drive there, it would be fine.

01:02:17 ◼   ► It's the suburbs, Apple built a lot of parking.

01:02:20 ◼   ► They built parking under the visitor center specifically

01:02:24 ◼   ► for public events at places like the Steve Jobs Theater.

01:02:28 ◼   ► So there's a lot of parking down there.

01:02:30 ◼   ► I'm sure it's mostly used by Apple employees

01:02:32 ◼   ► during the rest of the time,

01:02:33 ◼   ► but when I go there for special events,

01:02:36 ◼   ► there's a person there that makes sure

01:02:38 ◼   ► you're not an Apple employee before you're allowed in.

01:02:41 ◼   ► They're like, "If you're an Apple employee,

01:02:42 ◼   ► "you gotta turn around."

01:02:43 ◼   ► And I'm like, "I am not an Apple employee."

01:02:45 ◼   ► They're like, "All right, sir, move along."

01:02:46 ◼   ► So anyway, I think that's what they'll do.

01:02:49 ◼   ► I don't know if they'll invite the media or not. I'm still thinking that it's possible

01:02:53 ◼   ► that they will invite the media either to cover the special event or even potentially

01:02:58 ◼   ► to have the media go if they're, you know, if they pass a test and are vaccinated, maybe

01:03:03 ◼   ► even in the Steve Jobs theater, but if not that, then out in the outside to do that.

01:03:10 ◼   ► There may be a media contingent there. It's unclear. But anyway, parking's not going to

01:03:14 ◼   ► a problem. And Apple is capable of turning that, you know, doing an outdoor event at

01:03:21 ◼   ► that campus even though that wasn't the plan.

01:03:23 ◼   ► -Should we go down to the room and round up?

01:03:27 ◼   ► -Let's put on our spurs.

01:03:30 ◼   ► -Marshall Ming-Chi Kuo, name suggested by Tony in the Relay FM members Discord.

01:03:34 ◼   ► -Yee-haw.

01:03:35 ◼   ► -Marshall Kuo is reporting at the front-facing camera. No? That doesn't work?

01:03:40 ◼   ► -It's a little too close to Roger Kuo. It's Ming-Chi Kuo.

01:03:43 ◼   ► - No, I just called him Sheriff German.

01:03:45 ◼   ► - Yeah, okay, all right.

01:03:46 ◼   ► - Right?

01:03:47 ◼   ► - It's fine, it's just Marshall's also a name.

01:03:50 ◼   ► So it sounds like his name is Marshall.

01:03:51 ◼   ► - Yeah, but I'm not saying that.

01:03:53 ◼   ► Sheriff could be somebody's name.

01:03:54 ◼   ► - All right, the Marshall, what is the Marshall reporting?

01:03:57 ◼   ► - The Marshall is reporting that the front facing camera

01:04:00 ◼   ► of all iPhone 14 models would be upgraded

01:04:02 ◼   ► to get autofocus capability.

01:04:04 ◼   ► One of those things that every time I see a headline

01:04:07 ◼   ► like this, 'cause there was one of these a little while ago,

01:04:10 ◼   ► it was for something else, but it's like,

01:04:12 ◼   ► wait it doesn't have it no it doesn't have it the front-facing camera does not

01:04:15 ◼   ► have auto focus auto focus capability there will also be a wider aperture on

01:04:22 ◼   ► the iPhone 14 front-facing camera to allow more light into the lens not only

01:04:26 ◼   ► could this lead to better portrait mode it will also give overall image quality

01:04:30 ◼   ► gains for the front-facing cameras which are always great and I guess I saw

01:04:35 ◼   ► somebody say this on Twitter would just continue to show just how bad the rest

01:04:39 ◼   ► of Apple's front-facing cameras on their Macs are when the iPhones just get better and better

01:04:44 ◼   ► and better.

01:04:45 ◼   ► Yep, exactly.

01:04:47 ◼   ► The first iPhone 14 molds have leaked on Chinese social media network Weibo.

01:04:53 ◼   ► These always come out kind of around this time and then not too long after YouTubers

01:04:58 ◼   ► get their hands on production like dummies, you know, so like these are just like the

01:05:03 ◼   ► built from the specs.

01:05:05 ◼   ► these are genuine, which I mean they might as well be because what all they're

01:05:09 ◼   ► really confirming is the sizes which we've known about for years so that

01:05:13 ◼   ► Apple we're gonna be moving to this which is two regular sized phones, two

01:05:18 ◼   ► max size phones. So there will be the iPhone 14 and the iPhone 14 max and then

01:05:23 ◼   ► the iPhone 14 Pro and the iPhone 14 Pro Max. So yeah. Yeah that's that's the way

01:05:30 ◼   ► it's gonna be. I am look I mean I'm a iPhone mini user apparently one of the

01:05:35 ◼   ► the happy with the mini. Clearly it didn't sell well and I think it's gonna

01:05:41 ◼   ► be really interesting to see what the uptake is on the bigger, you know, iPhone

01:05:47 ◼   ► 14 Max, right? The idea of... It's gonna sell so much. ...of this sort of base model but big, how

01:05:55 ◼   ► that's gonna do. And it'll be interesting how Apple views it. I think Apple must

01:05:59 ◼   ► figure that people like a big phone but they don't necessarily like the big

01:06:03 ◼   ► price of the Pro Max. That is a limiting factor where people are like, "Oh, that's too much.

01:06:09 ◼   ► I'm just going to get the regular phone." And it makes sense. It makes sense. It's funny

01:06:14 ◼   ► too because they did with the XR, they did a big cheap phone at one point and then they

01:06:21 ◼   ► kind of stopped. And I wonder if that was the experiment to see how people reacted to

01:06:25 ◼   ► it and now they've put it into the regular line. Makes sense.

01:06:28 ◼   ► - I think the problem is big, cheap, right?

01:06:31 ◼   ► - Yeah.

01:06:32 ◼   ► - Like the XR was downgraded,

01:06:34 ◼   ► and I don't think that that helped that device.

01:06:36 ◼   ► This will be big, more expensive,

01:06:41 ◼   ► but still cheaper than Pro.

01:06:43 ◼   ► - Yeah.

01:06:44 ◼   ► - So I think we'll be overall,

01:06:45 ◼   ► I think this is a better lineup,

01:06:48 ◼   ► because I don't think people should be punished

01:06:51 ◼   ► because they want to have a big screen

01:06:53 ◼   ► that they have to spend $1,000 for it.

01:06:55 ◼   ► - I agree.

01:06:56 ◼   ► And you know, look, I'm sorry to Jason

01:06:59 ◼   ► and every other iPhone mini user.

01:07:01 ◼   ► I've said this before, you can't complain.

01:07:03 ◼   ► You should have just bought more of them.

01:07:04 ◼   ► - I guess I should have bought more than one.

01:07:06 ◼   ► - You should have bought,

01:07:06 ◼   ► every iPhone mini user should have bought four.

01:07:09 ◼   ► - Well, there's a thing we always say

01:07:10 ◼   ► when a local business closes where it's like,

01:07:12 ◼   ► wow, I guess that one time we went there

01:07:14 ◼   ► wasn't enough for them to stay in business.

01:07:16 ◼   ► That's how I feel about the iPhone 14 mini.

01:07:18 ◼   ► It's like, wow.

01:07:19 ◼   ► - I've never heard that before.

01:07:20 ◼   ► - Oh yeah, yeah. - It's really good.

01:07:21 ◼   ► - It's like, oh, we went to that restaurant twice.

01:07:23 ◼   ► Well, I guess the two times we went to that restaurant

01:07:24 ◼   ► in the last six years was not enough

01:07:26 ◼   ► to keep it in business.

01:07:28 ◼   ► That's how I feel about the iPhone 14 mini, right?

01:07:30 ◼   ► It's like, oh well, I guess the one iPhone 14 mini

01:07:32 ◼   ► that I bought was not enough to keep it in circulation.

01:07:35 ◼   ► Oh well.

01:07:36 ◼   ► - Look, you know, dear listener,

01:07:37 ◼   ► I'm not talking about your favorite thing here,

01:07:39 ◼   ► but it's always funny to me when I see like,

01:07:41 ◼   ► such and such websites closed down,

01:07:43 ◼   ► or such and such magazines closed down,

01:07:45 ◼   ► and everyone's like, oh man, this used to mean so much to me

01:07:48 ◼   ► and it's like, yeah, but that's the key part, right?

01:07:50 ◼   ► Like, it used to.

01:07:52 ◼   ► Like, I get that you, nostalgically,

01:07:54 ◼   ► will miss this magazine now that it's not gonna

01:07:56 ◼   ► be published anymore. Sorry, Macquarie. Macquarie is still published though, right?

01:08:00 ◼   ► In a digital sense, yes.

01:08:02 ◼   ► Yeah. But I think in the UK there's still a physical Macquarie.

01:08:05 ◼   ► No, I don't think it's physical in the UK either.

01:08:07 ◼   ► No? Maybe got rid of it? Anyway. But the point is, is like, these things, if you kept, if

01:08:14 ◼   ► you were able to translate your nostalgia to money, it would still be around. The problem

01:08:18 ◼   ► is everybody stopped buying it. Like, otherwise it would stick.

01:08:23 ◼   ► It's funny that you mention this because I wrote about this last week, and we'll put

01:08:27 ◼   ► a link in the show notes.

01:08:28 ◼   ► I wrote a piece about the HomePod and the studio display and what they had in common

01:08:31 ◼   ► that was at least partially based on the fact that Marco Arment was talking about how he

01:08:36 ◼   ► loves his HomePods and they don't make them anymore, and how there was a news story about

01:08:40 ◼   ► how HomePods are now going for more than their list price on eBay because the people who

01:08:44 ◼   ► love them really, really, really, really love them.

01:08:46 ◼   ► And it made me think about a couple of things, one of which is sometimes there's a specific

01:08:53 ◼   ► group that has very specific needs and a product fills their needs and it makes them very happy.

01:08:58 ◼   ► I feel like the reason I mentioned the studio display is I think that's the reason for the

01:09:01 ◼   ► disconnect between people who say, "Why don't you just buy a 32-inch curved Dell 4K display

01:09:07 ◼   ► and be happy?" We know the answer, which is because there are some very specific attributes

01:09:11 ◼   ► of the studio display that don't really exist elsewhere other than on that ultra-fine that

01:09:15 ◼   ► nobody seems to love. These are the reasons why that display is backordered as it is and

01:09:21 ◼   ► why people are excited about it within a very specific niche. The HomePod is like that too.

01:09:26 ◼   ► We think of the original HomePod as a failure because it was a market failure, right? But

01:09:31 ◼   ► market failure doesn't mean that it wasn't filling a niche that was perfect for a certain

01:09:36 ◼   ► subgroup of people.

01:09:38 ◼   ► I am one of those people. I adore my two HomePods and Stereo Pair.

01:09:42 ◼   ► And Marco talking about it like he said, "I did the research. There's nothing out there

01:09:47 ◼   ► that matches what the HomePod does. And it's true. Now one of the reasons there isn't anything

01:09:52 ◼   ► out there is because the niche is probably not big enough, and it wasn't big enough for

01:09:58 ◼   ► Apple, and that's why Apple did it. It also doesn't make it untrue that the HomePod was

01:10:02 ◼   ► overpriced and over-engineered if you're thinking of it from a market perspective of "we want

01:10:07 ◼   ► a product that's going to sell really well." But that doesn't change that for the people

01:10:11 ◼   ► it fits. It is a great product and a tragedy that nobody else, not enough other people

01:10:18 ◼   ► bought it for them to keep making it. I mentioned in my article like my dad's favorite snack

01:10:23 ◼   ► chip when I was a kid got discontinued and it was really sad but like you know he couldn't

01:10:29 ◼   ► buy enough bags. It really it had to be a hit or they weren't gonna make it anymore

01:10:34 ◼   ► and they stopped making it and that's just how it is and it stinks but that's how it

01:10:38 ◼   ► is, "Well, I could put the iPhone mini in that category too." Like, it stinks because

01:10:43 ◼   ► I love it, but I also get it that as much as I love it, obviously they're not enough

01:10:49 ◼   ► of me to meet Apple standards for an iPhone. And those standards are real high, right?

01:10:54 ◼   ► Because they sell a lot of iPhones and they're looking at that mini thinking, "Surely we

01:10:58 ◼   ► could do something else that would sell better." And I'm sure that the iPhone 14 Max will sell

01:11:03 ◼   ► better.

01:11:04 ◼   ► Speaking of the HomePod, Sheriff Mark Gurman is reporting that Apple is still working on

01:11:10 ◼   ► a combined HomePod and Apple TV device. This would also include a camera for FaceTime calls.

01:11:21 ◼   ► Sheriff Gurman believes there is no specific replacement to the original HomePod in the

01:11:25 ◼   ► works at Apple, but expects more HomePod mini devices. This hybrid HomePod/Apple TV product

01:11:33 ◼   ► is expected to be the centerpiece of the home strategy

01:11:36 ◼   ► for Apple into the future.

01:11:38 ◼   ► And the expectation is it is a device

01:11:41 ◼   ► that is still connected to a TV.

01:11:43 ◼   ► So there have been conversations before

01:11:45 ◼   ► about a home pod with a screen

01:11:46 ◼   ► and maybe that will still come.

01:11:48 ◼   ► But this is the like,

01:11:50 ◼   ► - This is the soundbar.

01:11:51 ◼   ► - Soundbar.

01:11:52 ◼   ► - This is the Apple soundbar

01:11:54 ◼   ► where they're gonna do spatial audio, right?

01:11:56 ◼   ► And even if it's one device, right?

01:11:58 ◼   ► It's gonna be a soundbar, but they're gonna say,

01:12:00 ◼   ► well, yes, but our spatial audio processing

01:12:02 ◼   ► makes it sound like a,

01:12:04 ◼   ► and you'll probably be able to add HomePod minis,

01:12:07 ◼   ► maybe to add to the surround or something like that.

01:12:10 ◼   ► And it's, but it's based on Apple TV, so you hook it in.

01:12:14 ◼   ► It's gonna have a camera in it that does center stage,

01:12:17 ◼   ► because if you have the idea of like,

01:12:19 ◼   ► you're sitting in front of your TV

01:12:20 ◼   ► and it's zooming into you to do a FaceTime call

01:12:23 ◼   ► with somebody, like it totally, this is,

01:12:26 ◼   ► I wrote about this like four years ago.

01:12:28 ◼   ► It does fit as a product.

01:12:30 ◼   ► It's interesting that they're gonna try it.

01:12:32 ◼   ► - As time has gone on since we first spoke about that,

01:12:35 ◼   ► more pieces are falling into place, right?

01:12:37 ◼   ► Like center stage.

01:12:38 ◼   ► - Right.

01:12:39 ◼   ► - They're actually building camera technology

01:12:40 ◼   ► that would work.

01:12:41 ◼   ► - Right, and your home pods that are connected

01:12:42 ◼   ► to your Apple TV, right?

01:12:43 ◼   ► That's a proof of concept essentially for the idea

01:12:46 ◼   ► of doing the external speakers along with an Apple TV device

01:12:49 ◼   ► and then you throw in center stage

01:12:51 ◼   ► and it all starts to kind of accumulate.

01:12:53 ◼   ► It also accumulates to the idea of a home pod

01:12:56 ◼   ► that you put in your kitchen that does center stage

01:12:58 ◼   ► and they may yet do that too.

01:13:00 ◼   ► But it sounds like Mark Gurman thinks, the sheriff thinks,

01:13:03 ◼   ► that this is coming.

01:13:04 ◼   ► I also, the more HomePod mini devices

01:13:06 ◼   ► I think is interesting.

01:13:07 ◼   ► I, in my piece last week about the HomePod,

01:13:10 ◼   ► I think I threw in there that like,

01:13:12 ◼   ► it seems like with the HomePod mini,

01:13:13 ◼   ► they've got something that is a better fit,

01:13:15 ◼   ► and that what they're probably gonna start doing now

01:13:17 ◼   ► is iterating up from there, right?

01:13:19 ◼   ► Like, instead of-- - They'll make that

01:13:21 ◼   ► a bit better. - Right.

01:13:22 ◼   ► They make it better, make it sound better,

01:13:23 ◼   ► maybe make a version that's more expensive,

01:13:25 ◼   ► but what they're not gonna do is leap back

01:13:27 ◼   ► to the big HomePod, because they're like,

01:13:29 ◼   ► that burned them, now they're gonna try to like start

01:13:31 ◼   ► from this new base at the mini,

01:13:33 ◼   ► and then maybe there will be another HomePod in the future,

01:13:37 ◼   ► but what it'll probably be is a little bit bigger,

01:13:39 ◼   ► little bit more capable HomePod mini,

01:13:42 ◼   ► not the old HomePod.

01:13:44 ◼   ► - HomePod is the name of this product.

01:13:46 ◼   ► - Is this product, yeah, it might be, it might be.

01:13:49 ◼   ► - Because you know what made me think of it,

01:13:51 ◼   ► it was the way you emphasized the word home.

01:13:53 ◼   ► - HomePod. - HomePod.

01:13:55 ◼   ► - And the centerpiece of the home strategy, right?

01:13:57 ◼   ► That would be, and it'll be all the other things

01:14:00 ◼   ► that an Apple TV already is.

01:14:01 ◼   ► It'll be your home kit hub.

01:14:05 ◼   ► Wonder if they'll put a, you know,

01:14:07 ◼   ► maybe they will do a more proper kind of home kit

01:14:10 ◼   ► integration into the tvOS update that's coming in June.

01:14:14 ◼   ► - Matter, right?

01:14:15 ◼   ► Matter's gonna be a thing eventually.

01:14:17 ◼   ► And Apple have already spoken even in presentations.

01:14:20 ◼   ► You know, so like it's all gonna start coming together.

01:14:23 ◼   ► It's just taking time.

01:14:25 ◼   ► - Yeah.

01:14:26 ◼   ► - Yeah, Gorman is also reporting that Apple is of course

01:14:29 ◼   ► working on M3 chips right now.

01:14:31 ◼   ► (laughs)

01:14:31 ◼   ► It's just funny to me.

01:14:33 ◼   ► The first M3 Mac could be unveiled

01:14:35 ◼   ► towards the end of next year.

01:14:37 ◼   ► - Next year.

01:14:38 ◼   ► No kidding.

01:14:39 ◼   ► People are laughing about this, but it's like,

01:14:41 ◼   ► he's reporting it because he has somebody saying,

01:14:45 ◼   ► "Yes, we are working on the M3."

01:14:47 ◼   ► And so he's gonna say that.

01:14:49 ◼   ► Obviously any of us could say it,

01:14:51 ◼   ► but he's got somebody who is specifically working,

01:14:53 ◼   ► basically who is working on the M3 saying,

01:14:55 ◼   ► yes we are working on the M3. And it gives us a little bit of an idea that the M series

01:15:00 ◼   ► is going to be on an annual timeline. That they're not going to do 18 months or two years.

01:15:04 ◼   ► That's the thing that I find interesting about this is it shows that the foot is still on

01:15:07 ◼   ► the accelerator. Because that was the question that we've had over the last couple of weeks,

01:15:11 ◼   ► right? Like, okay, so the M2 is coming now. Like it's going to start happening any day

01:15:16 ◼   ► now, right? Like by previous rumors it could happen imminently.

01:15:19 ◼   ► Which is actually an 18 month gap from the M1 to the M2. So him saying it may be end

01:15:24 ◼   ► of next year, I guess that's another 18 month gap. So maybe that's the pacing is an 18 month

01:15:32 ◼   ► gap between these things.

01:15:33 ◼   ► - And that's what we kind of wanted to get an idea of. Mark also does confirm that he

01:15:38 ◼   ► does still believe in iMac Pro is in the works, but it will not be anytime soon.

01:15:42 ◼   ► - Yeah, I think that's one of those things where he has an idea of what products are

01:15:44 ◼   ► imminent and that's not imminent. I still think that that product is probably coming

01:15:50 ◼   ► based on M2 Pro and my guess would be yeah,

01:15:55 ◼   ► that would maybe be like early next year kind of thing.

01:15:58 ◼   ► I think it'll happen.

01:15:59 ◼   ► I just don't think, you know,

01:16:00 ◼   ► they didn't make it a priority for generation one

01:16:03 ◼   ► and it'll probably be late in generation two.

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01:18:01 ◼   ► one last time ZocDoc.com/upgradefm our thanks to ZocDoc for their

01:18:06 ◼   ► support of this show and all of Real AFM. Let's do some #AskUpgrade

01:18:12 ◼   ► questions to finish out today's episode of Upgrade. The first comes from Gene who

01:18:16 ◼   ► asks, "There are at least four modifier keys you can use to create keyboard

01:18:21 ◼   ► shortcuts. Five if you use the hyper key." The hyper key is when you bind, is it all

01:18:26 ◼   ► four of them to one key? A lot of people do that with caps lock and stuff. So the

01:18:31 ◼   ► possible combinations for shortcuts that you choose yourself could be infinite. Do

01:18:36 ◼   ► Do you have a personal system for creating keyboard shortcuts that make them easier to remember?

01:18:40 ◼   ► I bought a stream deck.

01:18:43 ◼   ► That is perfectly valid as a thing, right? Or like for me, like I've used macro pads where it's just like I don't need to remember the shortcut itself, just what it does.

01:18:53 ◼   ► Similarly, I use a Wacom tablet and the Wacom tablet has eight buttons on the side that I programmed to do different things in Logic.

01:19:01 ◼   ► in logic so I know what these buttons do. I don't necessarily remember what key like

01:19:07 ◼   ► combinations they're assigned to.

01:19:09 ◼   ► Yeah, there are a few things where I've tried to bind it to a normal kind of keyboard shortcut

01:19:13 ◼   ► like for, you know, inserting a markdown link or something like that that I try to assign

01:19:18 ◼   ► to every app and do it that way and that's like Command K or Command Ship K or there's

01:19:22 ◼   ► just different versions of that. But so many of them it is hard to remember. That's why

01:19:27 ◼   ► I got a Stream Deck is because I wanted to have a visual representation of it. It's actually

01:19:31 ◼   ► why I would love for Apple down the road or also, I'll say this, it's an opportunity for

01:19:37 ◼   ► keyboard manufacturers too, to have something like a Stream Deck, but it's the F keys.

01:19:43 ◼   ► So what you mean is like, it's like a bar that you could touch.

01:19:48 ◼   ► Kind of, but it would be physical keys and then you would actually use software to control

01:19:53 ◼   ► what they showed and what they did,

01:19:56 ◼   ► but sort of like a bar that you could touch

01:19:59 ◼   ► because the F keys,

01:20:00 ◼   ► that's the problem I have with the F keys

01:20:02 ◼   ► is F keys are inscrutable.

01:20:04 ◼   ► That's just like, oh, F6, well now.

01:20:07 ◼   ► And then Apple has taken over the F keys

01:20:09 ◼   ► and turned them all into like system hardware shortcuts.

01:20:12 ◼   ► So then you're like, oh, do I keep those?

01:20:14 ◼   ► Or do I have to press the function key?

01:20:16 ◼   ► - I like that they put the icons on them, right?

01:20:19 ◼   ► Like to show you what they do.

01:20:20 ◼   ► - Well, yeah, they've repurposed stuff for that.

01:20:22 ◼   ► But that's the thing.

01:20:23 ◼   ► So it basically in the end,

01:20:25 ◼   ► this is why I bought a Stream Deck to begin with

01:20:27 ◼   ► is not because of all the wizzy automation stuff.

01:20:29 ◼   ► It really was because I like the idea of mapping

01:20:32 ◼   ► some of the things that I do that were previously,

01:20:35 ◼   ► you know, is it shift command, alt S,

01:20:38 ◼   ► or is it shift control alt, or is it control option,

01:20:41 ◼   ► but my keyboard says alt,

01:20:43 ◼   ► or is it control option command?

01:20:45 ◼   ► Like which three is it?

01:20:47 ◼   ► And I would do the wrong one and be like,

01:20:50 ◼   ► "Uh," and then undo that.

01:20:51 ◼   ► Now I'm gonna do this new one.

01:20:53 ◼   ► And now I have several things on my Stream Deck

01:20:56 ◼   ► that it's just, it's that function.

01:20:58 ◼   ► And so like, I just press the button

01:21:01 ◼   ► that has the label that says it does this,

01:21:04 ◼   ► and that's better.

01:21:05 ◼   ► Like I, so I don't have a strategy

01:21:07 ◼   ► 'cause I find it very hard to remember

01:21:09 ◼   ► other than some very specific things.

01:21:12 ◼   ► Very hard to remember these, you know,

01:21:14 ◼   ► a mnemonic for not only what letter is it

01:21:18 ◼   ► or number or F key,

01:21:20 ◼   ► but which modifiers I'm pressing, it's just, it's too much.

01:21:24 ◼   ► - So I use, most of mine that I use

01:21:27 ◼   ► for like quick navigation stuff on the Mac,

01:21:30 ◼   ► I use a combination of command and option

01:21:34 ◼   ► and then some key.

01:21:35 ◼   ► So like for Fantastical, it's command option C

01:21:39 ◼   ► and it brings down Fantastical from the menu bar.

01:21:42 ◼   ► And then I have the same with P for Pcalc.

01:21:46 ◼   ► Now, ideally, if I hadn't been using Fantastical

01:21:49 ◼   ► for so long that would be F and then like right but fantastic house is just

01:21:57 ◼   ► that way and also a friend of the show David's box has been on a personal

01:22:01 ◼   ► crusade to get me to use Moom for window management and I have been recently and

01:22:05 ◼   ► they use command option and then a bunch of letters to do some window management

01:22:09 ◼   ► stuff and I actually really like it I'm getting more into that now and I'll put

01:22:13 ◼   ► a link in the show notes he made a video after trying to convince me and then a

01:22:16 ◼   ► video that he made finally convinced me. Aaron wrote in and says if Apple were to

01:22:23 ◼   ► make a fitness only wrist device as discussed on episode 403 would you still

01:22:28 ◼   ► feel the need to wear it through the day to capture steps, stand breaks, etc. So

01:22:32 ◼   ► this is something I was looking for more right like I've spoken to a bunch that I

01:22:36 ◼   ► wish that Apple would just make a band right not a watch and yes I would wear it the

01:22:40 ◼   ► whole day because that's kind of the whole point. My thing is I want to

01:22:43 ◼   ► be able to get all of the fitness tracking without having to wear Apple's

01:22:49 ◼   ► watch so I could still feel free to wear other watches but still get all of the

01:22:54 ◼   ► exercise and fitness tracking and all of the sensors so yeah I would just wear it

01:22:58 ◼   ► on my other wrist like a bracelet like that's that's the idea yeah but yep one

01:23:04 ◼   ► day I wished Dom asked do you think Apple will return to making routers at

01:23:09 ◼   ► some point with more routers, routers, routers at some point, routers at some

01:23:14 ◼   ► point with more services being focused on cloud and internet connectivity these

01:23:20 ◼   ► days. I think they're firmly out of this business and I do not think they need to come back to it. This isn't like the other stuff.

01:23:28 ◼   ► This isn't like monitors. I mean I would love for them to do it but at

01:23:32 ◼   ► this point they would be competing with some products that are basically using

01:23:36 ◼   ► using the Apple playbook. They would need a very strong story to tell, and it would

01:23:44 ◼   ► have to be about security and privacy. It would have to be about overriding all of your

01:23:51 ◼   ► – basically building their own VPN into it or something like that, like private browsing.

01:23:57 ◼   ► They're building into their devices instead, right? So I think it's probably unlikely.

01:24:02 ◼   ► It's not an area where I'm sure that they can make a difference, but I'm not sure they

01:24:06 ◼   ► can make enough of a difference given that you've got Euro and Orbi and stuff like that.

01:24:11 ◼   ► The products that exist in this market are all just genuinely good and there's a lot

01:24:15 ◼   ► of them, right?

01:24:16 ◼   ► Like this isn't, I don't think that, and it's also, I feel like this is the kind of product

01:24:22 ◼   ► where it's kind of, it stays out of your way and Apple don't really make stay out of the

01:24:27 ◼   ► way products anymore.

01:24:28 ◼   ► Yeah.

01:24:29 ◼   ► The stuff that you're interacting with.

01:24:31 ◼   ► They want the infrastructure, right?

01:24:33 ◼   ► - They want the infrastructure,

01:24:34 ◼   ► and then they can do stuff like the home kit secure router

01:24:37 ◼   ► if they really want to, right?

01:24:39 ◼   ► You can, they can keep making that stuff more.

01:24:42 ◼   ► Like this gets to the question of,

01:24:45 ◼   ► should Apple make light bulbs, right?

01:24:48 ◼   ► For smart home.

01:24:49 ◼   ► Like that's what this falls into for me these days.

01:24:52 ◼   ► - Yeah, where do you draw that line?

01:24:53 ◼   ► - The answer is no.

01:24:54 ◼   ► Like the answer is no.

01:24:55 ◼   ► Like I, you know, like I use Eero at the studio

01:25:00 ◼   ► and I have an Orbi at home,

01:25:01 ◼   ► and I have great results with these products.

01:25:04 ◼   ► Like I have no, this isn't like some of the other stuff.

01:25:07 ◼   ► I'm not like, oh, please let me get airport back again.

01:25:10 ◼   ► Like I just don't feel that way at all.

01:25:11 ◼   ► - If Eero or Orbi didn't, if those didn't exist,

01:25:13 ◼   ► and so everything was still just old style routers,

01:25:16 ◼   ► I would say that there was more of a space

01:25:18 ◼   ► for Apple to come in and say, look, look, we've done this.

01:25:20 ◼   ► But that's what those products did

01:25:21 ◼   ► is take an Apple like approach to it.

01:25:23 ◼   ► So the ability, so if you're Apple

01:25:26 ◼   ► and you're looking at where you pick your spots,

01:25:27 ◼   ► something like that, it's like, it's kinda already covered.

01:25:30 ◼   ► And while I could see them, again,

01:25:32 ◼   ► making it a cornerstone of their strategy,

01:25:34 ◼   ► if they would need to make it more,

01:25:37 ◼   ► they really would need to lead into the privacy thing

01:25:39 ◼   ► and say, these are all Apple secured

01:25:41 ◼   ► and all the traffic that goes through them

01:25:44 ◼   ► goes to our network and your provider doesn't look at it.

01:25:48 ◼   ► And like, they would have to make it

01:25:49 ◼   ► this like super security product.

01:25:51 ◼   ► And I don't think they wanna do that.

01:25:52 ◼   ► I don't think the customer experience

01:25:53 ◼   ► would be very good on that.

01:25:55 ◼   ► Like, it just doesn't seem like this is an area

01:25:57 ◼   ► where Apple is gonna be able to add enough

01:26:00 ◼   ► to make it worth doing.

01:26:01 ◼   ► - And it's like if they didn't have the ability

01:26:04 ◼   ► for say like HomePods or iPads to be home hubs,

01:26:08 ◼   ► I could imagine it.

01:26:08 ◼   ► But they already have that.

01:26:09 ◼   ► - Sure, but they-- - So they don't, you know.

01:26:11 ◼   ► - Exactly. - They don't need it.

01:26:13 ◼   ► Finally today, Ryan writes in and asks,

01:26:15 ◼   ► "Spatial audio with head tracking.

01:26:17 ◼   ► Is this a case of Apple trying to make fetch happen?

01:26:20 ◼   ► It's not something that I particularly enjoy

01:26:22 ◼   ► and I have definitely heard other people complain about it

01:26:24 ◼   ► and I'm wondering why Apple is trying so hard

01:26:27 ◼   ► to market it as a big feature.

01:26:29 ◼   ► Why is Apple pushing the spatial audio

01:26:31 ◼   ► and head tracking feature to this level?

01:26:34 ◼   ► - It is not subtle.

01:26:36 ◼   ► And when you're demoing spatial audio,

01:26:41 ◼   ► the subtleties of spatial audio,

01:26:44 ◼   ► which remember if you're doing it in a pair of headphones,

01:26:49 ◼   ► what it's doing is it's taking multi-channel

01:26:52 ◼   ► and processing it into stereo dynamically

01:26:56 ◼   ► based on your head position.

01:26:57 ◼   ► So you can have things positioned behind you

01:27:00 ◼   ► and you turn a little bit

01:27:00 ◼   ► and they turn along with your head, but it's subtle.

01:27:05 ◼   ► And the head tracking where your audio is coming out

01:27:08 ◼   ► of the device that's right in front of you is not subtle.

01:27:11 ◼   ► And that's my answer.

01:27:12 ◼   ► Apple likes this feature because you can tell it's happening

01:27:16 ◼   ► and be impressed by the,

01:27:18 ◼   ► "Whoa, I can't believe it's like that, ooh."

01:27:21 ◼   ► And I think that's the truth,

01:27:23 ◼   ► because I think that it's not subtle.

01:27:25 ◼   ► And that there are subtle benefits

01:27:26 ◼   ► that people might get out of spatial audio

01:27:28 ◼   ► in other environments that are not,

01:27:31 ◼   ► I mean, I can see how some people might like it,

01:27:33 ◼   ► but I think that it's also, it just demos well.

01:27:36 ◼   ► It's like the equivalent of having the TVs at the Best Buy

01:27:40 ◼   ► in showroom mode where they're super bright and saturated.

01:27:45 ◼   ► And like, you'd never wanna watch a TV like that

01:27:50 ◼   ► in your home, but they have them like that

01:27:52 ◼   ► on the show floor because they're trying to sell you on them

01:27:56 ◼   ► and they want to stand out.

01:27:58 ◼   ► It's a little like that, I think.

01:28:00 ◼   ► - So for me, one of the things that actually annoys me

01:28:06 ◼   ► the most out of this feature, it's not so much

01:28:08 ◼   ► that it does the head tracking thing,

01:28:09 ◼   ► which I know bugs people, right,

01:28:11 ◼   ► of like your iPhone's to the left,

01:28:13 ◼   ► and so it always, that's where it always sounds

01:28:15 ◼   ► like the audio's coming from.

01:28:16 ◼   ► Like I know why it annoys people.

01:28:18 ◼   ► What annoys me about it is if you turn your head

01:28:20 ◼   ► for long enough, it just re-centers.

01:28:21 ◼   ► - Right, 'cause it doesn't actually know

01:28:24 ◼   ► where your iPhone is.

01:28:25 ◼   ► - I know, but that annoys me, right?

01:28:27 ◼   ► It annoys me, it's like, commit to this.

01:28:29 ◼   ► If you're gonna do it, commit to it.

01:28:30 ◼   ► Don't like, then all of a sudden break it.

01:28:32 ◼   ► Like, you know, like that frustrates me.

01:28:35 ◼   ► I like spatial audio in general.

01:28:37 ◼   ► Jury's out for me a little bit

01:28:40 ◼   ► with the head tracking part.

01:28:41 ◼   ► I leave it on, but I don't know how I feel about it.

01:28:44 ◼   ► But I think in general,

01:28:45 ◼   ► the spatial audio technology is excellent.

01:28:48 ◼   ► But I think one of the other problems of head tracking

01:28:51 ◼   ► is a thing that I've observed many people do,

01:28:53 ◼   ► which is the first time that they're on a plane

01:28:55 ◼   ► and they think that they haven't connected their headphones

01:28:57 ◼   ► and they freak out.

01:28:58 ◼   ► - Yeah.

01:28:59 ◼   ► - Right, like Adina had this.

01:28:59 ◼   ► She's like, she thought she was playing her movie out loud.

01:29:02 ◼   ► I was like, "No, no, no."

01:29:03 ◼   ► Like I was like, "No, no, no, it's just,

01:29:04 ◼   ► "the AirPods are just, you know, they're doing their thing."

01:29:07 ◼   ► But yeah, spatial audio is cool.

01:29:09 ◼   ► I think you're right.

01:29:09 ◼   ► The reason I do the head tracking

01:29:11 ◼   ► is so they can actually demonstrate spatial audio

01:29:13 ◼   ► to people that otherwise maybe can't pick it up otherwise.

01:29:17 ◼   ► And this won't be a problem with the VR headset, right?

01:29:19 ◼   ► They'll just--

01:29:20 ◼   ► Yeah.

01:29:20 ◼   ► It'll be-- they'll actually know where your head is.

01:29:23 ◼   ► That's why they're building all this technology.

01:29:25 ◼   ► It's just like another part of it.

01:29:26 ◼   ► It is.

01:29:27 ◼   ► This is like-- you know, it's more augmented reality,

01:29:30 ◼   ► but for audio.

01:29:31 ◼   ► And this is all-- again, we're talking about that HomePod

01:29:34 ◼   ► thing, right?

01:29:34 ◼   ► It's like-- I think over the last few years,

01:29:37 ◼   ► you can see that they are building

01:29:39 ◼   ► all these individual technologies,

01:29:40 ◼   ► and they're coming towards--

01:29:42 ◼   ► they're all moving towards each other.

01:29:44 ◼   ► And this is just another one.

01:29:45 ◼   ► This is a thing that Apple does that,

01:29:46 ◼   ► secretive as they are, so often it happens that they release a product and

01:29:50 ◼   ► you look back and realize that they put all of these pieces together over

01:29:53 ◼   ► several years in public and then put them in a product.

01:29:58 ◼   ► If you'd like to send in a question for us to answer on the show, just send out a tweet with the hashtag #AskUpgrade

01:30:03 ◼   ► or use question mark #AskUpgrade in the Relay FM members discord, which you can

01:30:07 ◼   ► get access to if you sign up for Upgrade Plus. Go to GetUpgradePlus.com and you

01:30:12 ◼   ► can sign up $5 a month $50 a year we talk about Elon Musk and Twitter today

01:30:17 ◼   ► and if you want to hear our thoughts about that you can go get it it's the only place we're

01:30:23 ◼   ► gonna talk about it for now so if you want it you gotta get upgradeplus.com

01:30:29 ◼   ► and you get those opinions thank you so much to ZocDoc text expander and

01:30:35 ◼   ► CleanMyMacX for their support of this show if you want to find Jason online

01:30:40 ◼   ► and you can go to Twitter. He is @JasonL. For now. You can go to sixcolors.com. Jason

01:30:52 ◼   ► will have a bunch of great content and coverage of Apple's Q2 charts. Q2, right? It's Q2.

01:31:00 ◼   ► Yep. Yep. Q2 results. Are you going to be live streaming? Yeah, we'll do a live stream

01:31:05 ◼   ► sometime in the afternoon after the event is over because there's nothing more exciting

01:31:09 ◼   ► than watching two guys on a video show you charts.

01:31:13 ◼   ► - Well then, there's something even more exciting maybe

01:31:16 ◼   ► is listening to two guys talk to you about those charts.

01:31:18 ◼   ► - Next week.

01:31:19 ◼   ► - Which will be happening next week.

01:31:20 ◼   ► I'm Myke, I am YKE.

01:31:23 ◼   ► Yeah, I think that's it for this week's episode of Upgrade.

01:31:25 ◼   ► - Say goodbye Myke Hurley.

01:31:26 ◼   ► - Goodbye Myke Hurley.

01:31:28 ◼   ► Yeah!

01:31:30 ◼   ► [ Music ]