Upgrade

00:00:00 ◼   ► [Music]

00:00:12 ◼   ► From Relay FM, this is Upgrade, episode 411.

00:00:16 ◼   ► Today's show is brought to you by Unipizza Ovens, Electric, Capital One, and Mode.

00:00:20 ◼   ► My name is Myke Hurley and I'm joined by Jason Snow. Hi, Jason.

00:00:23 ◼   ► Hi, Myke.

00:00:25 ◼   ► Hi, I'm waving.

00:00:26 ◼   ► Summer of fun!

00:00:29 ◼   ► - You already know it because you've heard the music.

00:00:31 ◼   ► We're starting the summer fun early.

00:00:33 ◼   ► Jason, why are we starting the summer fun early?

00:00:36 ◼   ► - Well, because it's basically summer

00:00:39 ◼   ► and I'm enjoying the sun and you're enjoying the sun

00:00:41 ◼   ► in sunny California because we are recording this,

00:00:45 ◼   ► one, in person.

00:00:48 ◼   ► - In the human flesh.

00:00:49 ◼   ► - And you're like, well, wait a second,

00:00:50 ◼   ► I thought Myke was sick.

00:00:51 ◼   ► How could they do that?

00:00:52 ◼   ► And it's like, well, I have a long table in my backyard

00:00:56 ◼   ► and my backyard is outside.

00:00:58 ◼   ► I'd like to keep my backyard outside.

00:01:01 ◼   ► And here we are, we are in my backyard

00:01:04 ◼   ► with a complete podcast set up

00:01:06 ◼   ► that is working surprisingly well.

00:01:11 ◼   ► - And I'm staying masked, I've decided,

00:01:13 ◼   ► except for when I'm drinking fluids.

00:01:16 ◼   ► Because look, if I take Jason Snell down,

00:01:19 ◼   ► the world's coming up.

00:01:20 ◼   ► - Oh, but you sound so muffled that way.

00:01:22 ◼   ► We're far away and the breeze is blowing.

00:01:24 ◼   ► - Hey look, I just want it on record that I tried.

00:01:28 ◼   ► 'cause I still have, I'm still positive.

00:01:29 ◼   ► I'm still testing positive every day.

00:01:31 ◼   ► - Well, as listeners can hear, we are outside.

00:01:37 ◼   ► We are not next to each other.

00:01:38 ◼   ► We are at a remove from one another.

00:01:41 ◼   ► I can even scoot back a little bit.

00:01:43 ◼   ► And the wind is blowing, as you can hear,

00:01:46 ◼   ► not a sound effect.

00:01:47 ◼   ► Now we, last year, I think on the Summer of Fun,

00:01:49 ◼   ► or maybe it was two years ago during Stay Inside time,

00:01:53 ◼   ► we did a fake episode where we were outside.

00:01:56 ◼   ► - Outgrade. - Outgrade.

00:01:57 ◼   ► for the summer fun where we put in a lot of sound effects

00:02:00 ◼   ► that suggested that we were outside.

00:02:03 ◼   ► (motorcycle engine revving)

00:02:04 ◼   ► We could just slide back.

00:02:05 ◼   ► - You hear that?

00:02:06 ◼   ► That was the sound of a picnic chair.

00:02:06 ◼   ► - Slide on back.

00:02:08 ◼   ► But this is real.

00:02:11 ◼   ► This is all real.

00:02:11 ◼   ► We don't actually know what's gonna happen.

00:02:13 ◼   ► My neighbors were having like a pool,

00:02:14 ◼   ► they have like an inflatable pool.

00:02:15 ◼   ► They were having a pool party

00:02:16 ◼   ► with a bunch of kids in it yesterday

00:02:17 ◼   ► when we were out here having dinner

00:02:19 ◼   ► and they were screaming.

00:02:20 ◼   ► That could happen.

00:02:21 ◼   ► A crow could attack us.

00:02:23 ◼   ► That could happen.

00:02:24 ◼   ► It could rain.

00:02:25 ◼   ► It might.

00:02:26 ◼   ► But I mean looking at the sky, I'm not expecting rain.

00:02:29 ◼   ► - The sky's perfectly blue and it's breezy.

00:02:31 ◼   ► - It was raining on the Golden Gate Bridge

00:02:33 ◼   ► on my way over though, so you know.

00:02:34 ◼   ► - That's just, you know.

00:02:35 ◼   ► - But I feel like that always happens on the Golden Gate Bridge.

00:02:36 ◼   ► - It's the thick fog that is always,

00:02:37 ◼   ► literally always raining.

00:02:38 ◼   ► - Many years ago during WWDC in San Francisco,

00:02:41 ◼   ► me and Steven decided we would take a lovely walk together

00:02:44 ◼   ► across the bridge.

00:02:45 ◼   ► One of the worst decisions we ever made

00:02:47 ◼   ► because it's just cold and horrible.

00:02:49 ◼   ► - I probably told this story before,

00:02:50 ◼   ► but I commuted across the bridge in a bus every day

00:02:54 ◼   ► for, I don't know, 15 years.

00:02:56 ◼   ► And I will tell you, I would start to,

00:03:00 ◼   ► I'd look out the window and I'd be like,

00:03:03 ◼   ► bad day for you guys, or, oh, you were very lucky.

00:03:06 ◼   ► Like I could gauge like what kind of day it was

00:03:09 ◼   ► for the tourists coming over the bridge.

00:03:10 ◼   ► 'Cause some days you couldn't see a thing

00:03:13 ◼   ► and it was windy and cold and miserable.

00:03:15 ◼   ► And other days it was crystal clear and beautiful.

00:03:17 ◼   ► And those people all went back to their towns

00:03:20 ◼   ► and in their countries and reported back,

00:03:23 ◼   ► oh, Golden Gate Bridge, very bad.

00:03:24 ◼   ► Or, oh, Golden Gate Bridge is very beautiful.

00:03:27 ◼   ► And it's just the luck of the draw.

00:03:29 ◼   ► - I have a hashtag snow talk question for you.

00:03:32 ◼   ► (laughing)

00:03:34 ◼   ► Comes from Arjun and Arjun wants to know,

00:03:35 ◼   ► when you make a typing mistake,

00:03:37 ◼   ► do you repeatedly press backspace until you correct it?

00:03:40 ◼   ► Or do you command space to delete the whole word

00:03:42 ◼   ► and type correctly?

00:03:44 ◼   ► - I didn't even remember that you could do the shortcut

00:03:48 ◼   ► to go back a word.

00:03:49 ◼   ► And that is my answer.

00:03:51 ◼   ► Also, what I really want to say here is always forward, Myke.

00:03:54 ◼   ► always forward. Never backward? Never backward. You never correct an error? Never. Do you

00:03:58 ◼   ► never make errors? Just keep going. No you do, but you just correct around them and say,

00:04:02 ◼   ► you know, that word I said before was not it. Anyway. Wait, so, so, what you're saying,

00:04:08 ◼   ► I've never seen this in your writing, so you make an error and then just say, no, forget

00:04:12 ◼   ► that. Don't worry about that. What I meant to say was this? I think if you consult the

00:04:15 ◼   ► history of my writing you'll find out that that's exactly my philosophy. Incredible.

00:04:18 ◼   ► Yeah, just always forward, push the cursor, forward. Ever forward. Well I like hitting

00:04:24 ◼   ► keys. So I just hit back, back, back, back, back.

00:04:26 ◼   ► - Back, back, back is a pretty good one.

00:04:27 ◼   ► - Yeah.

00:04:28 ◼   ► - That's a classic maneuver. I don't do the,

00:04:30 ◼   ► I don't trust a lot of those, you know, jump forward,

00:04:33 ◼   ► jump back, especially since sometimes they change between

00:04:35 ◼   ► apps or it'll be on command or, or option or whatever.

00:04:38 ◼   ► And so I don't, not for delete. I also, I was looking,

00:04:41 ◼   ► so I, I had to change some keyboard shortcuts and I had to,

00:04:47 ◼   ► on my Mac,

00:04:48 ◼   ► I discovered that there's a keyboard shortcut that's enabled

00:04:50 ◼   ► by default, I think that is shift delete

00:04:55 ◼   ► to delete the other direction.

00:04:57 ◼   ► I think that's it.

00:04:59 ◼   ► - Let me see, shift delete.

00:05:00 ◼   ► Yeah, it does a delete rather than backspace.

00:05:04 ◼   ► - It eats the letters in front of you, right?

00:05:07 ◼   ► - Yeah, that's what the delete key would do otherwise.

00:05:11 ◼   ► And then backspace just goes, backspace will go left,

00:05:13 ◼   ► delete key will go right if you're in a left

00:05:16 ◼   ► to right language.

00:05:17 ◼   ► - Well, I find that really disturbing and I turn that off.

00:05:22 ◼   ► By the way, the reason that I'm mentioning this

00:05:24 ◼   ► is that I mistakenly installed the Mac OS beta

00:05:29 ◼   ► on my main system that I use every day.

00:05:31 ◼   ► - Hang on a second, we need to get into that.

00:05:33 ◼   ► - We'll say, so I had to--

00:05:35 ◼   ► - Just pause there a second.

00:05:36 ◼   ► That is the end of snow talk.

00:05:38 ◼   ► - Okay, thank you.

00:05:38 ◼   ► - All right, we need to--

00:05:39 ◼   ► - Oh, chapter marker.

00:05:41 ◼   ► - Mm-hmm, that's where it goes.

00:05:42 ◼   ► - There it is.

00:05:42 ◼   ► - And I'm gonna write down in,

00:05:44 ◼   ► we have a topic later on in the show

00:05:45 ◼   ► called beta impressions.

00:05:46 ◼   ► - All right.

00:05:47 ◼   ► - And I'm pointing Jason mistakenly installs Ventura.

00:05:52 ◼   ► I will just say to close out the snow talk question.

00:05:55 ◼   ► I do sometimes do shift option,

00:05:57 ◼   ► like to, and then highlight stuff and delete it.

00:06:01 ◼   ► But anyway, I mostly will hit the back six key.

00:06:03 ◼   ► If you'd like to send in a question for us to open an

00:06:05 ◼   ► episode of the show, just send out a tweet with the hashtag

00:06:07 ◼   ► snow talk or use question marks snow talk in the relay FM

00:06:10 ◼   ► members discord.

00:06:11 ◼   ► Do you want to give a mic, you want a mic update?

00:06:13 ◼   ► - Yes. Yes. How are you doing?

00:06:14 ◼   ► - Mic's still sick.

00:06:16 ◼   ► I still have coronavirus.

00:06:18 ◼   ► I would say that my symptoms are going,

00:06:22 ◼   ► it's I'm a rollercoaster at the moment,

00:06:24 ◼   ► where, and I've heard this from other people,

00:06:27 ◼   ► it could be perfectly fine for a while,

00:06:29 ◼   ► and then I just all of a sudden feel terrible.

00:06:32 ◼   ► My most recent symptom, which is one I've had

00:06:35 ◼   ► for the most couple of days, has been really nauseous.

00:06:38 ◼   ► Don't know where that's coming from,

00:06:39 ◼   ► but that's like a thing that I've got going on.

00:06:42 ◼   ► We're going home tomorrow.

00:06:44 ◼   ► I've been consulting with guidelines from the CDC and the NHS about like, can I travel?

00:06:49 ◼   ► The thing is, I can travel. Like, no one's stopping me. You don't have to test anymore.

00:06:54 ◼   ► But basically what I've been reading is after five days, you're way less contagious.

00:07:02 ◼   ► So as long as the CDC recommends, as long as you mask, you're fine. So I've been contagious

00:07:08 ◼   ► now for seven eight days so I've been testing positive for eight days I should

00:07:14 ◼   ► say so we've I've also because of that our airline won't change it because

00:07:19 ◼   ► technically and legally I can travel so we'll be masked up the entire trip and

00:07:24 ◼   ► going home tomorrow I will tell you I cannot wait to go home I have had enough

00:07:29 ◼   ► of this trip I can't wait to go it's a cursed trip yeah it really is you gotta

00:07:33 ◼   ► you gotta get home so saying it's a curse trip we have a connection that I'm

00:07:36 ◼   ► I'm not feeling too confident on, but we'll work it out.

00:07:39 ◼   ► - Yeah, yeah.

00:07:39 ◼   ► No, it's a tough one.

00:07:42 ◼   ► As much as I enjoy your visits to California,

00:07:44 ◼   ► the circumstances of this, it could have been amazing.

00:07:47 ◼   ► And instead it's terrible.

00:07:49 ◼   ► - It had the makings of perfect trip

00:07:51 ◼   ► and went in the exact opposite direction.

00:07:53 ◼   ► We were talking before we started recording today about,

00:07:58 ◼   ► like, as you mentioned to me that last Monday was a blur.

00:08:01 ◼   ► - Oh yeah.

00:08:02 ◼   ► - And I wanted, I don't think we told the story on the show,

00:08:05 ◼   ► but I thought it would be funny to tell it now.

00:08:06 ◼   ► So we recorded last Monday, you were at Apple Park

00:08:09 ◼   ► and I was in my hotel room in San Jose.

00:08:11 ◼   ► But we were over video WebEx.

00:08:14 ◼   ► - Yeah, because it was Apple was running it, right?

00:08:16 ◼   ► So everything's in WebEx, not Zoom that we normally use.

00:08:19 ◼   ► - Or FaceTime.

00:08:20 ◼   ► - And you could have had the video off,

00:08:21 ◼   ► but you had the video on.

00:08:22 ◼   ► - I could see you.

00:08:23 ◼   ► - And you could see me.

00:08:24 ◼   ► - So I thought, you can see me.

00:08:25 ◼   ► But it ended up being very helpful

00:08:27 ◼   ► because what Jason would see is every little while,

00:08:30 ◼   ► I would kind of recoil into myself as I needed a minute.

00:08:33 ◼   ► - It reminded me of when I was a kid,

00:08:36 ◼   ► sometimes they would need to calm the class down

00:08:38 ◼   ► and they'd say, okay, everybody heads down on your desk.

00:08:41 ◼   ► Right, it was like, you put your, fold your arms

00:08:43 ◼   ► and put your head down on your desk and just think,

00:08:46 ◼   ► think quiet thoughts for a little while

00:08:47 ◼   ► and give the teacher a break.

00:08:48 ◼   ► The teacher needs a little break right now, kids.

00:08:51 ◼   ► And that's what you did.

00:08:52 ◼   ► And so I took that as a cue to keep talking.

00:08:54 ◼   ► - Keep talking, just vamp for me for a minute

00:08:57 ◼   ► 'cause I'm recharging.

00:08:59 ◼   ► I've also been using my blood oxygen sensor a lot.

00:09:01 ◼   ► So as the, you know, I have a watch. Yeah. You know, I've,

00:09:05 ◼   ► I have many times have been like this feature is pointless. Why did they include

00:09:08 ◼   ► it? Um, I've been using it.

00:09:11 ◼   ► I still say the way that Apple positioned it initially was kind of silly.

00:09:15 ◼   ► You know, it's like, Oh, did you go up mountains a bunch? Um,

00:09:17 ◼   ► but I've been using it a lot for, uh,

00:09:21 ◼   ► checking my, my blood oxygen, because why not? People say you should do that.

00:09:26 ◼   ► So I've been doing it. I can do a little test for you right now.

00:09:28 ◼   ► I was 94% an hour ago and then that's not good is what I've heard.

00:09:31 ◼   ► So I'll do another test, let it go right now.

00:09:33 ◼   ► - The FDA does not approve of you using this

00:09:36 ◼   ► in a medical way, it's more for entertainment purposes.

00:09:38 ◼   ► - Entertainment purposes only.

00:09:40 ◼   ► Ooh, I'm so entertained.

00:09:41 ◼   ► What about blood oxygen?

00:09:43 ◼   ► - Well, if it's low enough,

00:09:43 ◼   ► you'll be very entertained by it.

00:09:45 ◼   ► You'll be like, whoa.

00:09:46 ◼   ► - Yeah, this is providing drama.

00:09:48 ◼   ► 96% right now, so we're all good.

00:09:50 ◼   ► - It's all the extra oxygen that's out here

00:09:52 ◼   ► in the outside world.

00:09:54 ◼   ► - It is nice to be outside.

00:09:55 ◼   ► I've not spent a lot of time outside, I tell you that.

00:09:58 ◼   ► WWDC's over.

00:09:59 ◼   ► - It's true.

00:10:01 ◼   ► Oh, that sounds so good.

00:10:02 ◼   ► The bird song.

00:10:03 ◼   ► I don't know if anybody's enjoying this as much as I am,

00:10:05 ◼   ► but like, I'll tell you right now,

00:10:07 ◼   ► like, listeners, if you think to yourself,

00:10:09 ◼   ► oh man, I wish they were inside,

00:10:11 ◼   ► as a public, you spent a lot of time inside,

00:10:13 ◼   ► just take it from me, it's good to be outside.

00:10:15 ◼   ► (laughing)

00:10:16 ◼   ► What was your overall thoughts on WWDC?

00:10:19 ◼   ► - I mean, we talked about this sometime,

00:10:24 ◼   ► a little bit last week,

00:10:25 ◼   ► and I wrote a Macworld column about it last week, actually,

00:10:27 ◼   ► which was basically, this is the way to do it.

00:10:29 ◼   ► And I think that that's been the consensus.

00:10:30 ◼   ► I don't know if Apple is gonna do it this way again.

00:10:33 ◼   ► This was a change for them.

00:10:35 ◼   ► This was trying something different

00:10:38 ◼   ► to see if they could synthesize an in-person event

00:10:42 ◼   ► with online stuff.

00:10:43 ◼   ► And I think they did a really good job.

00:10:44 ◼   ► Like the fact that they did all those sessions on the web,

00:10:48 ◼   ► like they've done the last few years,

00:10:50 ◼   ► and those sessions were good.

00:10:51 ◼   ► I watched a bunch of them this week.

00:10:52 ◼   ► I think that was all good.

00:10:55 ◼   ► I've heard good things about the labs.

00:10:56 ◼   ► They had a Slack where you could go in and talk to people

00:10:59 ◼   ► who were people who work at Apple in key areas

00:11:02 ◼   ► and ask them your questions

00:11:03 ◼   ► and they and their colleagues would chime in with answers.

00:11:07 ◼   ► And that was all the stuff that you could do

00:11:08 ◼   ► and not be in Cupertino at all.

00:11:10 ◼   ► So I think on that front, they have done a really good job.

00:11:14 ◼   ► And remember a few years ago when this first happened,

00:11:17 ◼   ► oh, there's a siren now.

00:11:18 ◼   ► - Uh-oh.

00:11:20 ◼   ► - I swear this is not a plot development

00:11:21 ◼   ► in this fake outside that we're doing.

00:11:23 ◼   ► It's just the regular thing.

00:11:27 ◼   ► So that's so great.

00:11:29 ◼   ► - Okay, I think that we all wondered

00:11:34 ◼   ► whether they were really gonna be able to embrace

00:11:36 ◼   ► doing an online WWDC a few years ago.

00:11:38 ◼   ► - Oh, it's getting so much more aggressive.

00:11:40 ◼   ► - And it was, right, I mean, was like,

00:11:42 ◼   ► well, 'cause COVID happened and there was an emergency,

00:11:46 ◼   ► hmm, the sirens, and they rushed to build an online WWDC

00:11:51 ◼   ► and it turns out they did a pretty good job

00:11:52 ◼   ► and then they were able to iterate a couple of times on it

00:11:55 ◼   ► and they've done a great job.

00:11:56 ◼   ► So I think that part of it is settled.

00:11:59 ◼   ► Like don't, because WWDC is experienced by 99.999,

00:12:04 ◼   ► whatever percent of the Apple's developers, not in person.

00:12:08 ◼   ► So the part, really was the other part.

00:12:11 ◼   ► And that was mostly Monday, although it did,

00:12:14 ◼   ► there was stuff happening on Sunday and on Tuesday,

00:12:16 ◼   ► like overlap with some things and some events and all that.

00:12:19 ◼   ► And in the end, it's not that different,

00:12:23 ◼   ► but it's a little different from what I was kind of

00:12:25 ◼   ► predicting a few weeks ago, which is,

00:12:27 ◼   ► do it as a media event.

00:12:28 ◼   ► Well, they did, but, and it may end up there.

00:12:31 ◼   ► It may end up in the Steve Jobs theater

00:12:33 ◼   ► with media and developers, right?

00:12:35 ◼   ► - It depends on how big they, 'cause I mean,

00:12:38 ◼   ► I don't think they've said the amount of people,

00:12:40 ◼   ► but the images that I've seen,

00:12:41 ◼   ► and even the images Apple posted,

00:12:43 ◼   ► it looked like there was over a thousand people.

00:12:46 ◼   ► And can the Steve Jobs theater hold that many?

00:12:49 ◼   ► - I think it could do 2,000 people.

00:12:50 ◼   ► - 2,000?

00:12:51 ◼   ► Well, then they could do it there then.

00:12:52 ◼   ► - Yeah, but what if-- - I think it's just

00:12:53 ◼   ► occupied way much more physical space, right, than they would have in a theater.

00:12:57 ◼   ► And that's because of COVID. But they could do it in the theater if they felt comfortable,

00:13:02 ◼   ► but they also cannot do it.

00:13:03 ◼   ► Obviously they would prefer to do it in the theater though, right?

00:13:05 ◼   ► I think so.

00:13:06 ◼   ► Because that's the whole point of the theater.

00:13:07 ◼   ► I think so. If I had to guess, my guess would be that next year they'll do in theater, if

00:13:12 ◼   ► they can, they'll do it in the theater and they'll actually have presentations on stage.

00:13:17 ◼   ► For the media event, even if a bunch of it is pre-taped, because a bunch of it was already

00:13:21 ◼   ► pre-taped, but it'll be more of a live event than a viewing party, which is essentially

00:13:26 ◼   ► what it was. But even if they do the viewing party thing again, like, I love the idea that

00:13:30 ◼   ► you get the chance at the trip of the lifetime if you're a developer, and you get to go to

00:13:33 ◼   ► the mothership, you get to see Apple Park, you get to see the ring, you get to see the

00:13:36 ◼   ► whole thing. There's the developer center, like, there's all of these things, and no,

00:13:42 ◼   ► that's for .00001% of Apple developers, but it's a great moment for them, and it also

00:13:50 ◼   ► has great value for Apple to show excited developers, right? Like, I feel like if they

00:13:55 ◼   ► do go back to the Steve Jobs Theater and have some aspect of it live, one of the things

00:13:59 ◼   ► that they're going to do is have all the developers in the front, and they're going to be hyped

00:14:04 ◼   ► up, and they're going to be applauding and shouting and being very excited, and that's

00:14:08 ◼   ► good for the performance of the media event. And let's not kid ourselves, I was noticing

00:14:14 ◼   ► and watching some of it back, State of the Union is for developers. The keynote is not,

00:14:20 ◼   ► Like the developers were not referred to as you

00:14:23 ◼   ► in that presentation, right?

00:14:25 ◼   ► - No, at least they did.

00:14:25 ◼   ► - They were our developers, not you,

00:14:28 ◼   ► because it's not, the keynote's not directed at developers.

00:14:32 ◼   ► - It's for developers as users and all other users, right?

00:14:36 ◼   ► Like, because they did do something in this keynote

00:14:39 ◼   ► that like on reflection I really enjoyed

00:14:40 ◼   ► is they kept talking about there being APIs for everything.

00:14:44 ◼   ► And whether in previous years,

00:14:46 ◼   ► they just haven't had as many APIs,

00:14:48 ◼   ► But like, you know, like focus mode, for example,

00:14:50 ◼   ► there wasn't a focus API last time,

00:14:52 ◼   ► but there is this time and they called it out

00:14:53 ◼   ► and I liked it for that.

00:14:54 ◼   ► I do think as well as your article I've put in the show

00:14:59 ◼   ► and it's also put a great article

00:15:01 ◼   ► that David Smith wrote as well,

00:15:03 ◼   ► just about his whole experience

00:15:04 ◼   ► is kind of crossing the divide as both,

00:15:07 ◼   ► he attended his media,

00:15:09 ◼   ► but did everything else as a developer.

00:15:11 ◼   ► And David spoke so highly of it.

00:15:12 ◼   ► I mean, honestly,

00:15:14 ◼   ► If they do anything that different to last week,

00:15:18 ◼   ► in the future, I'll be really surprised.

00:15:20 ◼   ► It just doesn't seem like they need to go back

00:15:25 ◼   ► to WWDCs in person first,

00:15:29 ◼   ► because there's so much more they could still do.

00:15:32 ◼   ► Like Apple could facilitate meetups

00:15:35 ◼   ► and or the community will be doing it themselves again.

00:15:38 ◼   ► Because now, right, now this happens this year.

00:15:41 ◼   ► Next year, if Apple did the same thing,

00:15:43 ◼   ► it will still attract more people like it used to.

00:15:47 ◼   ► - Right, because people know what it is.

00:15:48 ◼   ► - Yeah, right, because if you were somebody

00:15:51 ◼   ► who would go to WWDC like I would before, right?

00:15:55 ◼   ► Just be in that environment.

00:15:57 ◼   ► You would have seen this year

00:15:59 ◼   ► that people were just getting together a lot.

00:16:02 ◼   ► You're like, "Oh, I wanna be in that."

00:16:04 ◼   ► Now, the question is where it will happen.

00:16:07 ◼   ► - Right, because around Apple Park,

00:16:09 ◼   ► there isn't a lot of stuff.

00:16:11 ◼   ► There aren't a lot of hotels,

00:16:12 ◼   ► there aren't a lot of restaurants,

00:16:14 ◼   ► there's the visitor center. - So that also could occur

00:16:15 ◼   ► in San Jose, right? - Yeah.

00:16:17 ◼   ► - As it has in previous years,

00:16:19 ◼   ► 'cause plus San Jose's 15 minutes to Apple Park, right?

00:16:23 ◼   ► So honestly, I expect that to start occurring over time.

00:16:27 ◼   ► I think now I would be disappointed

00:16:29 ◼   ► if Apple brought WWDC back

00:16:31 ◼   ► to the full-on 5,000-person convention,

00:16:33 ◼   ► 'cause there kind of isn't a,

00:16:34 ◼   ► I don't know why you would do it.

00:16:36 ◼   ► - Why would you get so many people there

00:16:39 ◼   ► to do one day, 'cause I don't think they're gonna do

00:16:42 ◼   ► or five day thing, right?

00:16:43 ◼   ► Because the online classes are enough.

00:16:44 ◼   ► - The online is so much better

00:16:46 ◼   ► and it enables so many more people to do this.

00:16:50 ◼   ► I think this is the way to go,

00:16:52 ◼   ► but it will still allow for people

00:16:54 ◼   ► who want to be in the environment

00:16:56 ◼   ► can still come to the environment

00:16:58 ◼   ► because there will be ancillary events popping up

00:17:02 ◼   ► just as there always was.

00:17:03 ◼   ► Like I would love to next year

00:17:06 ◼   ► put on live shows again in the Herma Theater, right?

00:17:09 ◼   ► I would love it if we could do that.

00:17:11 ◼   ► And the way that this year went,

00:17:12 ◼   ► except for one notable exception,

00:17:14 ◼   ► would seem to suggest that that could be a possibility

00:17:17 ◼   ► for us, right, to do that again.

00:17:19 ◼   ► - Right, and you end up with sort of ancillary events.

00:17:22 ◼   ► Although I do wonder with Apple facilitating things

00:17:25 ◼   ► like they did, if that might suggest Apple wanting

00:17:29 ◼   ► to have more of it be kind of under their auspices.

00:17:34 ◼   ► And that's-- - Totally fine.

00:17:36 ◼   ► - I mean, the talk show being in the developer center

00:17:38 ◼   ► is an interesting example of that.

00:17:39 ◼   ► - I mean, they always had that page, right,

00:17:40 ◼   ► they blessed certain events.

00:17:41 ◼   ► So like they can just keep doing that

00:17:43 ◼   ► and also they can put on more themselves.

00:17:45 ◼   ► They have the developer center,

00:17:46 ◼   ► they have all that space around Apple Park.

00:17:48 ◼   ► There's stuff that they can do.

00:17:50 ◼   ► I think this is the template for the future of WWDC.

00:17:53 ◼   ► - 100%.

00:17:53 ◼   ► - I don't think it is returning to 2019.

00:17:57 ◼   ► It doesn't make sense to have this big conference.

00:17:59 ◼   ► - No, but you're also right just in a,

00:18:01 ◼   ► the way the world works and the way people are,

00:18:03 ◼   ► you will end up with, knowing what it is now,

00:18:08 ◼   ► you will end up with somebody saying,

00:18:09 ◼   ► I'm gonna do a sidebar conference in San Jose that week.

00:18:14 ◼   ► - Why not? - Or whatever,

00:18:15 ◼   ► and that'll happen. - Because there were developers

00:18:17 ◼   ► that were going anyway, right?

00:18:20 ◼   ► Like I saw a bunch of developers online

00:18:22 ◼   ► who were, before they even knew

00:18:24 ◼   ► that Apple was inviting people,

00:18:26 ◼   ► said I'm gonna be in San Jose that week,

00:18:27 ◼   ► or I'm gonna go, 'cause there were a number of developers

00:18:30 ◼   ► I saw that had already planned to go

00:18:32 ◼   ► and got rejected for tickets and then got tickets,

00:18:37 ◼   ► 'cause Apple did like multiple rounds

00:18:38 ◼   ► of sending those passes out.

00:18:40 ◼   ► So people want it, and this is a way to do it

00:18:43 ◼   ► where I think it still continues

00:18:45 ◼   ► to make it pretty democratic feeling.

00:18:47 ◼   ► - And sets the expectation, right?

00:18:49 ◼   ► Which is you're not here for a week,

00:18:51 ◼   ► which is actually, you still have to pay for your flights,

00:18:53 ◼   ► but you don't have to stay for five, six, seven days.

00:18:56 ◼   ► You're here for a concentrated period,

00:18:58 ◼   ► and maybe with the developer center,

00:19:00 ◼   ► you know, it's not just we'll watch the keynote together.

00:19:03 ◼   ► It's you'll watch the keynote together,

00:19:04 ◼   ► and you're gonna meet some people who work at Apple,

00:19:07 ◼   ► and there's gonna be some stuff

00:19:08 ◼   ► in the developer center for you,

00:19:10 ◼   ► and it's gonna be a great two days, two and a half days,

00:19:14 ◼   ► and then you go home.

00:19:15 ◼   ► - They could make a couple of tracks too.

00:19:17 ◼   ► So like, you know, you say like, okay,

00:19:19 ◼   ► we're gonna put on screenings of these 10 sessions

00:19:24 ◼   ► of the whole sort, which we think could like,

00:19:26 ◼   ► and so you can go on like Apple's golden path of WWDC, right?

00:19:30 ◼   ► Where like, they're gonna have,

00:19:31 ◼   ► they're gonna be showing these sessions

00:19:33 ◼   ► in the developer center.

00:19:34 ◼   ► If you're in town, you can come along,

00:19:36 ◼   ► and we'll guide you through three days,

00:19:38 ◼   ► but it's not a different experience than anybody else.

00:19:40 ◼   ► - Right, imagine actually having some in-person sessions

00:19:44 ◼   ► where you could talk to the people in the videos

00:19:46 ◼   ► about what they can ask and follow up questions.

00:19:48 ◼   ► There's stuff they could do,

00:19:49 ◼   ► but most of it's gonna need to happen online,

00:19:51 ◼   ► and that's fine, but they can create an experience

00:19:53 ◼   ► that is special for the developers

00:19:55 ◼   ► who are lucky enough to have it,

00:19:56 ◼   ► who will presumably cycle through

00:19:58 ◼   ► and not be the same group every year,

00:19:59 ◼   ► which is why I said it's an experience of a lifetime.

00:20:02 ◼   ► It's like, that was the year I went in person.

00:20:05 ◼   ► and then they're useful as part of the show as well.

00:20:09 ◼   ► And so that's a good combination because it is a show.

00:20:12 ◼   ► They're putting it on, having the developers there

00:20:14 ◼   ► shows the public that Apple cares about its developers,

00:20:17 ◼   ► which is important because there's a lot of stuff going on

00:20:20 ◼   ► that is controversial about Apple

00:20:23 ◼   ► and how it treats its developers.

00:20:24 ◼   ► So having that as a profession of Apple's love

00:20:27 ◼   ► for its developers is good for Apple.

00:20:29 ◼   ► And it's also good for the event itself to be,

00:20:32 ◼   ► like I said, it's a much more receptive studio audience.

00:20:35 ◼   ► The Macworld Expo crowds and the WWDC keynote crowds

00:20:39 ◼   ► were always the best in terms of stagecraft

00:20:42 ◼   ► because they were, 'cause the media is,

00:20:45 ◼   ► we're kinda not supposed to clap and stuff, right?

00:20:46 ◼   ► - I hate that thought, by the way, like,

00:20:49 ◼   ► 'cause I guess I'm media now, right?

00:20:51 ◼   ► So close, nearly got there, but at least, yeah.

00:20:54 ◼   ► - Technically you can still say you're not

00:20:56 ◼   ► until the next time. - But if I went,

00:20:57 ◼   ► I would be excited, I'll be clapping and sharing,

00:20:59 ◼   ► like, I don't know why there is an expectation

00:21:03 ◼   ► the media must be jaded.

00:21:04 ◼   ► Like it doesn't make sense to me.

00:21:06 ◼   ► - No, I think the idea is that you're objective

00:21:07 ◼   ► and you're not there to root, you're there to cover it.

00:21:09 ◼   ► - So what?

00:21:10 ◼   ► This is where like I--

00:21:10 ◼   ► - I threw my arms up with the touchdown thing

00:21:12 ◼   ► when they did the windowing on the iPad though.

00:21:14 ◼   ► I did do that, but that's about it.

00:21:15 ◼   ► - I come from a different age.

00:21:17 ◼   ► Where like I'm independent.

00:21:19 ◼   ► - Yeah. - Right?

00:21:20 ◼   ► Like I didn't, I don't work for IDG or whatever.

00:21:23 ◼   ► Like I'm just a guy who has a bunch of podcasts.

00:21:26 ◼   ► Not because he wants to be a journalist,

00:21:28 ◼   ► but it's because he's an enthusiast.

00:21:30 ◼   ► - It's a cultural thing,

00:21:31 ◼   ► but it's always gonna be there, right?

00:21:32 ◼   ► which is why for the media events, pure media events,

00:21:36 ◼   ► the crowd is seated with VIPs who are like friends of Apple,

00:21:40 ◼   ► who Apple has invited, and Apple employees,

00:21:42 ◼   ► and they do the cheering, right?

00:21:44 ◼   ► And my feeling is that that actually got

00:21:46 ◼   ► a little over-aggressive in the last few years.

00:21:48 ◼   ► Well, the beauty of this is you've got an excited audience

00:21:51 ◼   ► that's gonna cheer who are the developers.

00:21:53 ◼   ► So you bring them in and it's that much better.

00:21:56 ◼   ► And if there are crowd shots that show people

00:21:59 ◼   ► and you're like, "Ah, there's my buddy who went,"

00:22:01 ◼   ► That's also all to the benefit of this.

00:22:03 ◼   ► So yeah, let's do this again.

00:22:05 ◼   ► Except for the one very specific thing

00:22:07 ◼   ► that we shouldn't do again. - Let's not do it

00:22:08 ◼   ► exactly the same.

00:22:09 ◼   ► - No, but similar.

00:22:10 ◼   ► - But very, no, no, similar, not for me.

00:22:12 ◼   ► - No. - Very similar

00:22:14 ◼   ► for everyone else. - Okay.

00:22:15 ◼   ► - Exact 180% different percent.

00:22:18 ◼   ► - 180%. - 180%.

00:22:19 ◼   ► - 180% different for me.

00:22:21 ◼   ► - Okay, all right.

00:22:23 ◼   ► - This episode is brought to you by Mode

00:22:24 ◼   ► and their new keyboard, the Sonnet.

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00:22:35 ◼   ► themselves.

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00:24:57 ◼   ► Mode, it's time to rethink keyboards.

00:25:01 ◼   ► Thanks to Mode for the support of this show and Relay FM.

00:25:05 ◼   ► So observations since last week.

00:25:09 ◼   ► What kind of stuff have you been thinking about?

00:25:11 ◼   ► What kind of stuff has been bouncing around in your brain?

00:25:14 ◼   ► What sessions have you watched?

00:25:15 ◼   ► That kind of stuff.

00:25:16 ◼   ► Yeah, I watched a bunch of sessions.

00:25:20 ◼   ► Not as many, so here's the way that I look at sessions is so many sessions are Apple

00:25:27 ◼   ► evangelizing developers on what they need to do to, you know, follow Apple's guidelines.

00:25:34 ◼   ► And the truth is that is not what I'm looking for.

00:25:38 ◼   ► What I, and nor, it's not for me, right?

00:25:40 ◼   ► That goes without saying, it's not for me.

00:25:42 ◼   ► What I'm looking for is are there things I can glean about new things that Apple is doing

00:25:47 ◼   ► that by watching the developer session,

00:25:50 ◼   ► they explain how it works and what it does.

00:25:53 ◼   ► And I go, "Oh, that's how that works."

00:25:54 ◼   ► And then they're like, "Okay, let's do this in Swift."

00:25:56 ◼   ► And I think, "Hm, goodbye."

00:25:58 ◼   ► - Time for me to leave.

00:25:58 ◼   ► - Next session.

00:26:00 ◼   ► So I watched a bunch, especially on Tuesday,

00:26:05 ◼   ► I watched a bunch of desktop class iPad related sessions,

00:26:10 ◼   ► which I thought was really interesting.

00:26:11 ◼   ► And I wrote up on six colors.

00:26:14 ◼   ► It is, we talked about it last week

00:26:16 ◼   ► in that part of it is Apple sort of saying to its own app developers internally,

00:26:20 ◼   ► you need to not have, you know, restore those features that are on the Mac but

00:26:26 ◼   ► not on the iPad because you didn't want to put them on the iPhone back in the day

00:26:30 ◼   ► and consider that more. But it is, interestingly, also an OS update

00:26:36 ◼   ► in iPad OS 16 with the idea of giving more tools. So like there are three

00:26:41 ◼   ► different browsers that you can choose for your window, basically the top of the

00:26:44 ◼   ► a window that do different things, whether you're a browser

00:26:48 ◼   ► or like a file-based app, or there's a third one too,

00:26:53 ◼   ► a navigation-based, hierarchical navigation-based app.

00:26:57 ◼   ► They have these three different kind of toolbar styles

00:27:01 ◼   ► or something, and then that have like the name of the,

00:27:04 ◼   ► like the document one, the documents kind of to the left

00:27:07 ◼   ► like it is on Mac OS now.

00:27:10 ◼   ► There's a file menu essentially under the file name

00:27:14 ◼   ► that you can click on the file name

00:27:16 ◼   ► and it's a new dropdown menu

00:27:18 ◼   ► that lets you do things that are file related.

00:27:20 ◼   ► Like they didn't call it,

00:27:21 ◼   ► I don't know if they call it the file menu,

00:27:23 ◼   ► but Mac users will be familiar with it as the file menu.

00:27:26 ◼   ► - Yeah, in your icon, your article,

00:27:28 ◼   ► you've got an image and it's like,

00:27:29 ◼   ► it's got a little chevron,

00:27:31 ◼   ► whatever you call it, little carrot.

00:27:32 ◼   ► - Yeah, next to the file name.

00:27:34 ◼   ► - Duplicate, rename, move, export,

00:27:36 ◼   ► like it's a bunch of actions you can perform on the file.

00:27:39 ◼   ► - Right, and so, and there are some basic ones there,

00:27:42 ◼   ► like renaming in line,

00:27:44 ◼   ► but also you can put your own commands there for your app.

00:27:46 ◼   ► So it's basically a file menu.

00:27:48 ◼   ► And then there are toolbars that moves it to the left.

00:27:51 ◼   ► So then there's this toolbar in the center

00:27:53 ◼   ► and what developers can do,

00:27:54 ◼   ► this is the kind of stuff you glean from the sessions.

00:27:57 ◼   ► What the developer can do is say,

00:27:59 ◼   ► here's like on the Mac, here's my default toolbar.

00:28:02 ◼   ► And here's some other things you can add to the toolbar.

00:28:04 ◼   ► And these things are grouped together

00:28:05 ◼   ► and this thing can't be taken off the toolbar.

00:28:08 ◼   ► And these things are optional.

00:28:09 ◼   ► And then anything that doesn't fit in the toolbar

00:28:13 ◼   ► basically overflows into the little, you know,

00:28:15 ◼   ► more menu off in the corner.

00:28:17 ◼   ► But it's Apple defining saying like,

00:28:20 ◼   ► this is how you do all of the toolbar stuff on iPad.

00:28:24 ◼   ► And it's not quite a menu bar, right?

00:28:27 ◼   ► 'Cause they didn't introduce a menu bar with iOS 16.

00:28:29 ◼   ► They could have, but they didn't.

00:28:32 ◼   ► But they're putting things that you might find

00:28:34 ◼   ► in a menu bar in other places.

00:28:37 ◼   ► - That was after I was 15.

00:28:39 ◼   ► That was the expectation.

00:28:40 ◼   ► We were all talking about that constantly, right?

00:28:42 ◼   ► menu bar on iPadOS. - Menu bar mode.

00:28:44 ◼   ► That they could have easily in this mode in fact,

00:28:47 ◼   ► done put things in the menu bar.

00:28:48 ◼   ► - Because it was the introduction of that globe key thing.

00:28:52 ◼   ► - Right, which shows you commands.

00:28:54 ◼   ► - Where they basically replicated the menu bar

00:28:56 ◼   ► like what you'd see on Catalyst.

00:28:58 ◼   ► - They're really dipping their toe in the water there, right?

00:29:00 ◼   ► Where you've got the globe key and command key thing

00:29:02 ◼   ► which will bring up your menus for the app

00:29:04 ◼   ► but it's not a menu bar.

00:29:05 ◼   ► And now you've got these other things in that toolbar

00:29:08 ◼   ► that are menu-like but not a menu bar

00:29:12 ◼   ► and they're attached to the individual windows,

00:29:14 ◼   ► it is, it will come as no surprise to you, Myke,

00:29:16 ◼   ► that it turns out if you do this on your iPad app,

00:29:20 ◼   ► makes it a better Mac app too, through Catalyst, right?

00:29:23 ◼   ► That was one of the selling points they made

00:29:25 ◼   ► is all of these choices, sort of like,

00:29:27 ◼   ► the toolbar becomes a Mac toolbar item

00:29:29 ◼   ► when you're on the Mac.

00:29:31 ◼   ► - Oh, okay.

00:29:32 ◼   ► - So if you're trying to improve your iPad app

00:29:34 ◼   ► to make it more Mac-like and you're using Catalyst,

00:29:37 ◼   ► you actually are also making your Catalyst app

00:29:39 ◼   ► more Mac-like in the process.

00:29:41 ◼   ► and it's part of their strategy of like,

00:29:43 ◼   ► take something from iOS and make it an iPad thing

00:29:46 ◼   ► and then bring it to the Mac

00:29:47 ◼   ► and you can pick up all these other kinds of features.

00:29:49 ◼   ► So they're making an effort

00:29:51 ◼   ► with a bunch of the desktop class stuff around it

00:29:55 ◼   ► to just sort of restore interface things

00:29:58 ◼   ► that just weren't there on the iPad.

00:30:01 ◼   ► And yeah, I think it's part and parcel

00:30:03 ◼   ► with the stage manager stuff that they're doing.

00:30:06 ◼   ► But interesting that they chose to give it a name

00:30:10 ◼   ► and call it out in a different way.

00:30:13 ◼   ► And for a developer conference, right?

00:30:15 ◼   ► They're trying to extol the virtues of doing this.

00:30:18 ◼   ► They know that most of their iOS apps

00:30:19 ◼   ► are not particularly iPad adapted

00:30:22 ◼   ► and are not using features like this.

00:30:24 ◼   ► And they're really, this is one of those cases

00:30:25 ◼   ► where they are really trying to evangelize developers

00:30:28 ◼   ► to like, come on, make a toolbar, join us.

00:30:32 ◼   ► - My concern of a lot of this kind of iPad stuff is

00:30:35 ◼   ► in the past, a lot of the productivity apps.

00:30:39 ◼   ► So they had these features, right?

00:30:40 ◼   ► Like I think about Windows, multiple app Windows

00:30:44 ◼   ► or whatever.

00:30:45 ◼   ► Apple's apps do them, a lot of third parties,

00:30:48 ◼   ► smaller apps do it, but the big guns don't do it.

00:30:53 ◼   ► - Right. - Right?

00:30:54 ◼   ► Or it takes them a year, 18 months to add this kind of stuff

00:30:58 ◼   ► I still wanna have multiple Windows and Google Docs.

00:31:02 ◼   ► I don't think that's ever gonna happen at this point.

00:31:04 ◼   ► - Yeah, I think the challenge is with Google Docs

00:31:06 ◼   ► or with Microsoft Office, you've got something

00:31:08 ◼   ► that is sort of, they built their own thing to do it.

00:31:12 ◼   ► But all of the kind of smaller apps

00:31:16 ◼   ► that have built their own toolbar system or whatever,

00:31:19 ◼   ► I think you'll see some improvement there

00:31:21 ◼   ► where they'll be like, oh,

00:31:22 ◼   ► now I'll just use Apple's thing instead.

00:31:24 ◼   ► But you're right, the big ones,

00:31:26 ◼   ► are they going to embrace this

00:31:27 ◼   ► or are they just gonna ignore it

00:31:28 ◼   ► like they've ignored everything else?

00:31:30 ◼   ► - But then the other thing is,

00:31:31 ◼   ► all I really want is Apple to make

00:31:33 ◼   ► pure, true real-time collaboration

00:31:36 ◼   ► in one of their documents apps, right?

00:31:38 ◼   ► so we could move our Google docs to pages or whatever.

00:31:41 ◼   ► - Well, I think that was one of the things

00:31:43 ◼   ► that I added to our little show document here

00:31:44 ◼   ► is that Apple spent a lot of time talking

00:31:46 ◼   ► about collaboration features

00:31:47 ◼   ► and in the conversation over this past week about it,

00:31:50 ◼   ► I've seen some people be really enthusiastic about it

00:31:53 ◼   ► that feel like that Google and Microsoft

00:31:55 ◼   ► are playing in this space and that where is Apple

00:31:57 ◼   ► and does Apple even care

00:31:59 ◼   ► and people who use Microsoft Teams

00:32:02 ◼   ► and or whatever else are like,

00:32:04 ◼   ► oh, it's great that Apple is doing this.

00:32:06 ◼   ► I admit to being a little more skeptical about this

00:32:10 ◼   ► because Apple loves to say,

00:32:12 ◼   ► oh, look, we have come up with our solution

00:32:14 ◼   ► that will let everybody collaborate in real time,

00:32:17 ◼   ► but it only ever works on Apple's platforms, right?

00:32:19 ◼   ► And sometimes there's a web version of it,

00:32:21 ◼   ► but really it's for people who are fully committed

00:32:24 ◼   ► to Apple platforms and so many businesses aren't.

00:32:26 ◼   ► That they just like are, we're gonna use pages now.

00:32:29 ◼   ► That's just what we're gonna use

00:32:31 ◼   ► as opposed to Word or Google Docs.

00:32:33 ◼   ► There are not a lot of organizations

00:32:35 ◼   ► that I think are willing to do that.

00:32:36 ◼   ► So I look at those collaboration things and I think good,

00:32:39 ◼   ► maybe we would use them under certain circumstances.

00:32:43 ◼   ► - I'd love to, but this every time I've tried it

00:32:46 ◼   ► and I've tried it so many times,

00:32:48 ◼   ► it's like the collaboration that currently exists in notes

00:32:52 ◼   ► where it's like all of our changes are gonna get synced,

00:32:54 ◼   ► but when?

00:32:55 ◼   ► - When, yeah, exactly.

00:32:58 ◼   ► And so the fact that they are trying to do things

00:33:01 ◼   ► more real time with messages and FaceTime

00:33:04 ◼   ► and stuff like that, I think it's all admirable,

00:33:06 ◼   ► but I'm still left with wondering if they're actually,

00:33:10 ◼   ► people are actually gonna use these collaboration tools,

00:33:14 ◼   ► not because they're not good, 'cause maybe they are,

00:33:17 ◼   ► but because I just, any organization that would standardize

00:33:22 ◼   ► on Apple collaboration tools is an organization

00:33:28 ◼   ► that is 100% Apple.

00:33:30 ◼   ► And, you know, Apple,

00:33:32 ◼   ► unless Apple is going to be like Microsoft or Google,

00:33:35 ◼   ► and I don't think they ever are,

00:33:37 ◼   ► and say, we're also going to make

00:33:39 ◼   ► all of our collaboration tools available

00:33:41 ◼   ► on all the other platforms, right?

00:33:44 ◼   ► That's not why it exists.

00:33:46 ◼   ► So it makes it a hard sell, even if it is good.

00:33:50 ◼   ► And, you know, I share your skepticism of like, you know,

00:33:53 ◼   ► could we just, could our show documents go in

00:33:55 ◼   ► some other collaborative tool that Apple does?

00:33:59 ◼   ► I mean, we'll try it out, but--

00:34:00 ◼   ► - It would work for people who were starting something new,

00:34:04 ◼   ► but considering we already have Google Docs,

00:34:07 ◼   ► for me, it has to meet Google Docs's core functionality.

00:34:10 ◼   ► - Right.

00:34:11 ◼   ► - Before, and like the fact, oh,

00:34:14 ◼   ► runs on Apple platforms only,

00:34:15 ◼   ► not a problem for me in my business, right?

00:34:18 ◼   ► But, you know, like if I now decided

00:34:21 ◼   ► I wanted to reorganize our show document

00:34:23 ◼   ► and moved everything around, you're on your laptop,

00:34:25 ◼   ► you see it exactly as I'm doing it.

00:34:27 ◼   ► that has become now something that I rely on.

00:34:30 ◼   ► And so for me to consider wanting to move to something else,

00:34:33 ◼   ► it has to do that.

00:34:34 ◼   ► But I do like the look of their other collaboration stuff.

00:34:37 ◼   ► Shared tab groups is fun.

00:34:39 ◼   ► - Yeah, is that gonna happen?

00:34:41 ◼   ► Are we gonna start having like a little shared tab groups

00:34:43 ◼   ► for all our podcasts?

00:34:44 ◼   ► - Why not?

00:34:45 ◼   ► - We'll upgrade tab group where instead of sending you links,

00:34:47 ◼   ► I just opened tabs.

00:34:48 ◼   ► - I mean, I'm a huge tab group user.

00:34:49 ◼   ► I have seven tab groups that I use.

00:34:53 ◼   ► So I'm currently in my recording tab group,

00:34:56 ◼   ► which has all the things in my recording.

00:34:58 ◼   ► And what I like about that is, so say for example,

00:35:01 ◼   ► I'm on my iPad in the morning,

00:35:02 ◼   ► I can have my recording tab group open,

00:35:04 ◼   ► have all my tabs open, I can be editing the document.

00:35:06 ◼   ► When I then sit down on my iMac in the evening

00:35:08 ◼   ► to record a view, it's just where I left off.

00:35:11 ◼   ► And like, I love it as like a persistent thing.

00:35:14 ◼   ► And then I can go to my like,

00:35:16 ◼   ► I then have just a general relay FM tab group,

00:35:18 ◼   ► which has all of the tabs I need for publishing.

00:35:21 ◼   ► So I switch over to there and do all the stuff I need.

00:35:24 ◼   ► I'm a big fan of this feature.

00:35:25 ◼   ► I'm happy they're adding more to it.

00:35:27 ◼   ► And I like the idea of shared tab groups.

00:35:29 ◼   ► Like I have a vacation tab group

00:35:31 ◼   ► where I keep ideas for vacations.

00:35:33 ◼   ► Adina should be shared on that.

00:35:35 ◼   ► - Yeah, I have thought about that as a perfect example

00:35:39 ◼   ► as for family things, I can really see it

00:35:42 ◼   ► because this is, just as we all knew 10 years ago,

00:35:45 ◼   ► but Apple didn't know that perhaps partners

00:35:48 ◼   ► wanna share their photo libraries with each other.

00:35:51 ◼   ► We also have things like going on vacations

00:35:54 ◼   ► or other shopping for appliances or whatever it is, right?

00:35:57 ◼   ► That you are collaborating on

00:35:59 ◼   ► and having a shared space to do that

00:36:01 ◼   ► would be kind of nice.

00:36:03 ◼   ► So, and honestly, to take it back

00:36:07 ◼   ► to collaboration features in general,

00:36:10 ◼   ► that's where Apple has some power

00:36:14 ◼   ► because there are small businesses, yes,

00:36:16 ◼   ► but there are family groups that are all Apple.

00:36:20 ◼   ► And if Apple, and you're like,

00:36:23 ◼   ► "Oh, well, business collaboration doesn't make sense

00:36:25 ◼   ► for families."

00:36:26 ◼   ► Well, some collaboration does,

00:36:27 ◼   ► maybe it's not the same kind of business document

00:36:29 ◼   ► collaboration as you're thinking of,

00:36:31 ◼   ► but some of those things actually do make sense

00:36:34 ◼   ► for families or for very, very small work groups.

00:36:38 ◼   ► But I just, on the larger scale,

00:36:41 ◼   ► I keep coming back to the fact that even if Apple

00:36:43 ◼   ► made literally the best collaborative things,

00:36:45 ◼   ► we might adopt it.

00:36:46 ◼   ► But would it be a game changing kind of thing?

00:36:48 ◼   ► I just have a hard time because of what Apple is trying

00:36:52 ◼   ► to do and who their tools are for,

00:36:54 ◼   ► I have a hard time seeing it.

00:36:55 ◼   ► So when I see them demo it and they're like,

00:36:57 ◼   ► oh boy, everybody's got to get on board here

00:37:00 ◼   ► on the collaboration train.

00:37:01 ◼   ► 'Cause we're doing business collaboration.

00:37:03 ◼   ► Like look at all these happy business people

00:37:05 ◼   ► who are doing this.

00:37:06 ◼   ► It's like, okay, but who is that?

00:37:09 ◼   ► Who actually, what company actually is that?

00:37:11 ◼   ► That's doing that level of collaboration.

00:37:14 ◼   ► And it's Apple's ideal company

00:37:15 ◼   ► because they're all on Apple products.

00:37:17 ◼   ► But the reality, it doesn't really fit that.

00:37:20 ◼   ► - No.

00:37:21 ◼   ► continuity camera you wrote about that. Yeah, so continuity camera we saw the demo right

00:37:27 ◼   ► there was more detail in there were there were some WWDC sessions about it and first

00:37:37 ◼   ► off we were talking about camo and Sherlocking of camo which is a great app that does this

00:37:43 ◼   ► I I believe we've already seen that Apple is not willing to go to the level that camo

00:37:50 ◼   ► is in terms of fiddly settings. So there are going to be reasons to use camo. In fact,

00:37:54 ◼   ► I wonder if the APIs for this thing will make camo be able to transition into being a more

00:37:59 ◼   ► fiddly settings for continuity camera kind of utility in the future. But like, this camo

00:38:05 ◼   ► you can crop your picture manually. And remember our complaints about the center stage camera

00:38:11 ◼   ► on the studio display and how Apple doesn't let you, Myke, change the refresh rate manually

00:38:17 ◼   ► your power in the UK and how I can't say, "Can I get it a little bit tighter so you

00:38:24 ◼   ► don't see the edges of my green screen?" And Apple just seems to not want anyone to ever

00:38:29 ◼   ► do anything at that level of detail with their camera. Camo will let you do that.

00:38:33 ◼   ► - Is there an API though? - There is, but I don't know if it's for this.

00:38:40 ◼   ► - Just to get the feed. - Just to get the feed from it. Maybe so,

00:38:44 ◼   ► So this is my frustration though.

00:38:46 ◼   ► I'm gonna say webcam settings is still a thing

00:38:48 ◼   ► that they need to offer.

00:38:50 ◼   ► Even though that might be a third party opportunity

00:38:52 ◼   ► because like I look at this thing and I think,

00:38:55 ◼   ► well, yeah, but camera will be the one that lets me crop it

00:38:58 ◼   ► so that my green screen doesn't show

00:39:00 ◼   ► and this doesn't do that.

00:39:01 ◼   ► So there are some limitations there.

00:39:04 ◼   ► In terms of the actual implementation,

00:39:08 ◼   ► first off it's this idea of a system camera,

00:39:11 ◼   ► which we have not had before,

00:39:12 ◼   ► which is like what is the default camera that is in use right now and Apple is

00:39:16 ◼   ► sort of assumed essentially

00:39:18 ◼   ► that you only have one camera most of the time and nobody it's an edge case and

00:39:21 ◼   ► nobody cares.

00:39:22 ◼   ► Now there is this system camera so you've got

00:39:26 ◼   ► cameras that are attached to your computer and then you've got the system

00:39:29 ◼   ► camera and so let me give you an example of this.

00:39:31 ◼   ► So I have a new iPhone

00:39:33 ◼   ► or new, it doesn't matter, I have an iPhone running

00:39:36 ◼   ► iOS 16 and I've got a Mac

00:39:39 ◼   ► that's running Ventura

00:39:41 ◼   ► and I bring, and they're both logged into the same Apple ID

00:39:44 ◼   ► and I bring-- - Oh, I was listening

00:39:44 ◼   ► to MacPow users, by the way. - Yeah.

00:39:46 ◼   ► - David Sparks, also a hater of Ventura,

00:39:48 ◼   ► so you're not on your own.

00:39:49 ◼   ► - Okay, good, yeah, it's not a great place.

00:39:50 ◼   ► - I'm just saying, just in case,

00:39:51 ◼   ► I don't know if you've got any Ventura haters

00:39:53 ◼   ► in your comments. - No, I haven't.

00:39:54 ◼   ► Although, I didn't even think about, like,

00:39:57 ◼   ► Ace Ventura Pet Detective and stuff like that,

00:39:59 ◼   ► but I was like, whatever.

00:40:00 ◼   ► Okay, so you bring the-- - I saw a great joke.

00:40:02 ◼   ► The idea, you know, you could do the lookup.

00:40:05 ◼   ► - Mm-hmm. - macOS Ventura Pet Detection.

00:40:08 ◼   ► I wish I could remember where I saw this joke,

00:40:10 ◼   ► - I thought it was hilarious.

00:40:12 ◼   ► - All right.

00:40:13 ◼   ► - Just had to share it.

00:40:14 ◼   ► - Okay, so continuity camera,

00:40:16 ◼   ► you bring your phone close to your Mac

00:40:17 ◼   ► and at that moment when they're both logged

00:40:20 ◼   ► into the same Apple ID,

00:40:21 ◼   ► basically your phone is now among the available cameras

00:40:26 ◼   ► for your Mac.

00:40:27 ◼   ► So you could switch to it and use it in Zoom or whatever.

00:40:32 ◼   ► And this is actually good because one of the uses

00:40:36 ◼   ► of continuity camera is not as a webcam for your face.

00:40:39 ◼   ► it's like a camera for you to show something

00:40:41 ◼   ► you're demonstrating, right?

00:40:42 ◼   ► Like when the Mac Studio came out,

00:40:44 ◼   ► Dan and I did a live stream

00:40:45 ◼   ► and I had an iPhone with camo attached to my Mac

00:40:49 ◼   ► so that I could like show the Mac Studio

00:40:52 ◼   ► and the studio display using a handheld camera.

00:40:54 ◼   ► So you can do that and it's like a camera on your Mac.

00:40:57 ◼   ► However, continuity camera has this other thing

00:41:00 ◼   ► where if it's perpendicular to the table

00:41:03 ◼   ► and not moving, not shaking,

00:41:07 ◼   ► it's basically using sensors to detect, am I mounted?

00:41:12 ◼   ► Am I mounted somewhere?

00:41:15 ◼   ► And if it is, then it becomes the system camera

00:41:20 ◼   ► and takes over for your webcam.

00:41:23 ◼   ► (laughing)

00:41:23 ◼   ► So--

00:41:24 ◼   ► - That's so complicated.

00:41:25 ◼   ► Why can't I just tell it?

00:41:27 ◼   ► - Well, this is the idea is you can tell it.

00:41:29 ◼   ► - Okay.

00:41:30 ◼   ► - But what they wanna do is they wanna make it magical,

00:41:32 ◼   ► right?

00:41:33 ◼   ► So they wanna make it so that if you get

00:41:33 ◼   ► one of these Belkin accessories or whatever,

00:41:36 ◼   ► and you drop your phone into it right behind your max display

00:41:41 ◼   ► and you let go, it just magically goes bloop.

00:41:47 ◼   ► Now we're on the magic camera.

00:41:48 ◼   ► - So if I had my phone in a dock.

00:41:51 ◼   ► - No, because it would be,

00:41:54 ◼   ► I think it's actually sensing that it's on its side

00:41:57 ◼   ► and steady.

00:41:58 ◼   ► But if you had a sideways dock, maybe it would do this.

00:42:02 ◼   ► It's weird.

00:42:03 ◼   ► We'll see how it works in practice.

00:42:04 ◼   ► I think what they wanna do is they wanna use the sensors

00:42:07 ◼   ► in the iPhone to basically detect that it's in webcam mode.

00:42:10 ◼   ► And when it's in webcam mode, it just flips over

00:42:13 ◼   ► so that you don't have to go into zoom

00:42:15 ◼   ► and change your camera.

00:42:16 ◼   ► It just changes your camera automatically

00:42:18 ◼   ► when you enter that mode.

00:42:20 ◼   ► So that's a little weird, but it doesn't,

00:42:23 ◼   ► and whether you'll have to use that feature or not,

00:42:27 ◼   ► I don't know, but it is separate from the idea

00:42:30 ◼   ► that when it's close, you can use it as a camera.

00:42:32 ◼   ► It is a camera input and you could select it and then--

00:42:35 ◼   ► - I guess the benefit,

00:42:37 ◼   ► pretty much every single video app

00:42:39 ◼   ► shows you your camera view before you start, right?

00:42:42 ◼   ► So if for some reason your iPhone camera turns on,

00:42:46 ◼   ► you could just switch it to your whatever camera

00:42:49 ◼   ► before you start. - Sure, real time follow up,

00:42:50 ◼   ► Matt Cassanelli, hi Matt, listening in the chat room,

00:42:55 ◼   ► says he tried it on his sideways dock and it does work.

00:42:57 ◼   ► That is-- - So that means

00:42:58 ◼   ► it also doesn't work. - Yeah, 'cause it wants

00:43:00 ◼   ► to be, what it's sensing is that the phone is on its side

00:43:03 ◼   ► and steady.

00:43:04 ◼   ► And then it's like, oh, I've been mounted.

00:43:08 ◼   ► Now I'm going to use this as the primary.

00:43:10 ◼   ► So it's pretty wild, but it's an interesting thing.

00:43:13 ◼   ► So the other thing obviously is the desktop,

00:43:18 ◼   ► desk view, right?

00:43:20 ◼   ► Which is using the wide, ultra wide.

00:43:22 ◼   ► It's only the ultra wide camera.

00:43:24 ◼   ► And it sees so much that it's mounted on your computer,

00:43:27 ◼   ► but it sees the desk in front of you.

00:43:30 ◼   ► And so they've done this thing where they're de-skewing it

00:43:32 ◼   ► and they're rotating it and they're making it available.

00:43:35 ◼   ► So the details here are fascinating.

00:43:37 ◼   ► One is it's an app.

00:43:38 ◼   ► (laughs)

00:43:42 ◼   ► And the reason it's an app is because they think

00:43:46 ◼   ► the use case for this is in a video conference

00:43:49 ◼   ► as the equivalent of a screen share.

00:43:52 ◼   ► So they made it an app so that you can share it,

00:43:56 ◼   ► share the window of the desk view as a screen share.

00:44:01 ◼   ► So if you're on Zoom,

00:44:02 ◼   ► it'll be your face will still be there,

00:44:04 ◼   ► but also now you're sharing your screen,

00:44:06 ◼   ► except it's actually you're sharing your desk.

00:44:08 ◼   ► Are you following me?

00:44:11 ◼   ► - So to get the desk view,

00:44:15 ◼   ► there is an app inventor called what, desk view?

00:44:18 ◼   ► - Desk view.

00:44:19 ◼   ► - And when you open that,

00:44:20 ◼   ► the continuity camera is running,

00:44:23 ◼   ► it shows the desk view.

00:44:24 ◼   ► So then in Zoom, you could be like, share my screen

00:44:28 ◼   ► and choose desk view.

00:44:29 ◼   ► - And choose desk view and then it'll share your desk.

00:44:31 ◼   ► - What I will say, whilst that sounds super weird,

00:44:33 ◼   ► it at least, what I like about it is they could easily

00:44:36 ◼   ► just say, we have an API for desk view.

00:44:39 ◼   ► We want everyone to adopt it.

00:44:40 ◼   ► Or like, hey, check out desk view in FaceTime.

00:44:44 ◼   ► It works in, at least this way,

00:44:45 ◼   ► it shows that they have thought to themselves, right?

00:44:48 ◼   ► Like what is the way that we can build this feature

00:44:52 ◼   ► that every single video conferencing tool can use it.

00:44:56 ◼   ► - Exactly, and video conferencing tools

00:44:59 ◼   ► don't like two cameras, right?

00:45:01 ◼   ► So you could switch and I'm unclear

00:45:03 ◼   ► if DeskView is also available as a camera.

00:45:06 ◼   ► There is an API, so if it's not, you know,

00:45:10 ◼   ► because there's an API, I imagine they're talking to Zoom

00:45:12 ◼   ► and Webex and all those companies about supporting this

00:45:15 ◼   ► and being like, oh, now we've got a button

00:45:16 ◼   ► to show your DeskView.

00:45:18 ◼   ► But if you don't have something like that,

00:45:21 ◼   ► you can just share the window and you'll see it.

00:45:23 ◼   ► I don't know if it's a camera so you could switch to it,

00:45:25 ◼   ► but yeah, it's them saying this is used more

00:45:28 ◼   ► like document sharing, like a screen share,

00:45:31 ◼   ► than it is like a camera,

00:45:32 ◼   ► because would you normally, without any context,

00:45:35 ◼   ► but you and I might wanna switch to the desk view.

00:45:39 ◼   ► And so I think that's a,

00:45:41 ◼   ► I don't know the answer to that question.

00:45:42 ◼   ► The other thing that is a little tidbit

00:45:44 ◼   ► that I wanted to mention that didn't come out

00:45:46 ◼   ► in the keynote, I believe, is that

00:45:49 ◼   ► So center stage uses the ultra wide,

00:45:54 ◼   ► desk view uses the ultra wide.

00:45:57 ◼   ► If you're in center stage and desk view at the same time,

00:46:00 ◼   ► yes, it is taking the same image

00:46:04 ◼   ► and simultaneously cropping and altering two parts of it

00:46:09 ◼   ► to generate your center stage and the desk view,

00:46:12 ◼   ► which is wild.

00:46:13 ◼   ► But what is even wilder is if you're not using center stage,

00:46:17 ◼   ► - Then it's using center stage in continuity camera.

00:46:21 ◼   ► - Yes.

00:46:21 ◼   ► - So, like, so you can use--

00:46:23 ◼   ► - Yes, continuity camera includes center stage.

00:46:26 ◼   ► - And it's using the iPhone's ultra wide camera to do that.

00:46:29 ◼   ► - And it's using the ultra wide camera.

00:46:30 ◼   ► - Even though the iPhone currently doesn't do that.

00:46:34 ◼   ► - Exactly, iPhone doesn't do center stage,

00:46:36 ◼   ► but it does in continuity camera mode.

00:46:39 ◼   ► - Okay.

00:46:40 ◼   ► - So, so if you're not using center stage though,

00:46:42 ◼   ► it uses the wide camera.

00:46:44 ◼   ► - Yes.

00:46:45 ◼   ► - And so in that scenario, if you're using desk view

00:46:46 ◼   ► and continuity camera,

00:46:49 ◼   ► it's using different iPhone cameras.

00:46:53 ◼   ► It's using one iPhone camera to do the document view

00:46:56 ◼   ► and it's using a different iPhone camera

00:46:58 ◼   ► to do your portrait view.

00:46:59 ◼   ► - Which is what I assumed.

00:47:00 ◼   ► And that's what I think everybody had just assumed

00:47:03 ◼   ► that that was all it did.

00:47:04 ◼   ► What you're saying is you can say,

00:47:06 ◼   ► turn on center stage mode.

00:47:08 ◼   ► - Yes.

00:47:09 ◼   ► And then it's doing, if you can imagine it,

00:47:11 ◼   ► like two different machine learning algorithms

00:47:13 ◼   ► are eating different portions of the camera.

00:47:16 ◼   ► - I don't know if this is true,

00:47:17 ◼   ► if this is an urban myth or not,

00:47:18 ◼   ► but it's one of those things you hear

00:47:20 ◼   ► that certain fighter pilots are trained

00:47:22 ◼   ► to use both of their eyes independently

00:47:23 ◼   ► so they can look at different consoles.

00:47:25 ◼   ► I don't know if you've ever heard this.

00:47:26 ◼   ► I've heard this, I don't know if that's true,

00:47:28 ◼   ► but that's how I imagine it.

00:47:29 ◼   ► Like the iPhone, it's using one lens

00:47:31 ◼   ► and it's looking in two different directions.

00:47:33 ◼   ► - That's it, it's giving itself kind of like a lazy eye.

00:47:36 ◼   ► - That's wild.

00:47:37 ◼   ► - It's pretty wild.

00:47:39 ◼   ► And then there's a portrait mode,

00:47:40 ◼   ► which they talked about there, which is,

00:47:42 ◼   ► again, essentially they're just adding features

00:47:44 ◼   ► that they already have built somewhere

00:47:46 ◼   ► and they're putting them in.

00:47:48 ◼   ► - The lighting one is fun

00:47:50 ◼   ► 'cause that's like the first really, I think,

00:47:52 ◼   ► good use case of the portrait lighting effects.

00:47:54 ◼   ► - Yeah, is if you're in a badly lit video chat

00:47:57 ◼   ► and now you don't need a ring light, I guess,

00:48:00 ◼   ► 'cause you can use portrait lighting,

00:48:02 ◼   ► which essentially is using object detection to,

00:48:06 ◼   ► or depending on the camera, I suppose,

00:48:08 ◼   ► it's actually using a depth map

00:48:11 ◼   ► and then it's pulling you out and lightening you

00:48:13 ◼   ► and it's darkening the area behind you.

00:48:16 ◼   ► - There's just something so funny about faking a ring light.

00:48:20 ◼   ► Why don't you just lighten the whole image?

00:48:23 ◼   ► I just something funny about that to me of like,

00:48:26 ◼   ► oh, is your image too dark?

00:48:27 ◼   ► We will pretend you have a light on you.

00:48:28 ◼   ► - The argument is that if you're backlit,

00:48:31 ◼   ► you can't lighten the whole image.

00:48:33 ◼   ► What you really wanna do is lighten

00:48:34 ◼   ► the dark part of the image

00:48:36 ◼   ► and darken the light part of the image

00:48:38 ◼   ► to get them to be a little bit closer.

00:48:40 ◼   ► But yeah, this is all another example.

00:48:43 ◼   ► I mean, look, I don't wanna say this

00:48:46 ◼   ► to belittle continuity camera,

00:48:47 ◼   ► 'cause I actually think this is a brilliant feature.

00:48:49 ◼   ► And the number one thing about it is that unlike Camo,

00:48:53 ◼   ► Apple has the home field advantage.

00:48:56 ◼   ► And so Apple gets to come up with that feature

00:48:58 ◼   ► that it just detects that you want it and it turns it on.

00:49:01 ◼   ► Whereas Camo, you've got to like launch the app

00:49:03 ◼   ► and then turn it around and the screen has to stay on

00:49:07 ◼   ► and all this stuff.

00:49:08 ◼   ► And Apple doesn't have to behave that way.

00:49:09 ◼   ► Apple can just say, now it's a camera, it's magic.

00:49:13 ◼   ► And that's all great.

00:49:15 ◼   ► However, beyond that, which is a great detail,

00:49:18 ◼   ► when you look at the details of the features

00:49:19 ◼   ► of Continuity Camera, it is another example

00:49:22 ◼   ► of Apple recycling all of its features

00:49:24 ◼   ► into various products, which they have to do.

00:49:26 ◼   ► They have how many OSs now?

00:49:27 ◼   ► They have to do it.

00:49:28 ◼   ► But this is a perfect example where it's like,

00:49:31 ◼   ► oh, we've got lots of image effects.

00:49:32 ◼   ► What effects do you need?

00:49:33 ◼   ► And they're like, okay, I'll take center stage

00:49:35 ◼   ► and portrait mode and portrait lighting.

00:49:40 ◼   ► And can you get me something that shows me

00:49:45 ◼   ► what's on my desk?

00:49:46 ◼   ► Okay, yeah, all right, I'll take that too.

00:49:47 ◼   ► And that's what it is.

00:49:48 ◼   ► So one new feature, three recycled features.

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00:52:08 ◼   ► I did not, and I can see Tony in the chat saying,

00:52:12 ◼   ► "Myke knew that before they changed the spelling

00:52:14 ◼   ► of their name."

00:52:15 ◼   ► It used to be U-U-N-I.

00:52:16 ◼   ► - Oh.

00:52:16 ◼   ► Weird. - Which,

00:52:18 ◼   ► I don't remember, I think it might have been in,

00:52:22 ◼   ► I meant something in--

00:52:24 ◼   ► - Finnish or something?

00:52:25 ◼   ► Finnish or Danish, I don't remember.

00:52:27 ◼   ► And I don't want to offend Christian by saying

00:52:29 ◼   ► the wrong one, so I'm not going to give it to anything.

00:52:31 ◼   ► - All right.

00:52:32 ◼   ► - So you mentioned earlier on that you quote,

00:52:34 ◼   ► "Mistakenly installed Ventura."

00:52:36 ◼   ► - Yep.

00:52:37 ◼   ► - What does that mean?

00:52:38 ◼   ► What does that mean exactly?

00:52:39 ◼   ► - Whoops, I did it again.

00:52:39 ◼   ► - Whoopsie.

00:52:40 ◼   ► - So, okay.

00:52:42 ◼   ► Here's a, maybe the experts out there can tell me

00:52:46 ◼   ► what I did wrong here, but what I'd like to do

00:52:49 ◼   ► is install the beta on a new volume on my computer, right?

00:52:54 ◼   ► right so I can keep my existing Monterey installation and then also have Ventura

00:53:02 ◼   ► and I can reboot into Ventura because although that's not ideal because you

00:53:06 ◼   ► really want to live with it I also record podcasts and audio hijack which I

00:53:11 ◼   ► use to do everything including this rogue amoeba has had enough with your

00:53:15 ◼   ► beta testing they do they disable you uni uni is finished for oven if you're

00:53:21 ◼   ► and upgrade plus subscriber.

00:53:23 ◼   ► You don't know why I just said that, but there you go.

00:53:26 ◼   ► - All right, thank you.

00:53:27 ◼   ► (laughing)

00:53:28 ◼   ► - It's a correction from the ad, okay.

00:53:30 ◼   ► - An ad you didn't hear, but pizza is tasty.

00:53:33 ◼   ► This episode is also brought to you by pizza,

00:53:36 ◼   ► which is tasty.

00:53:37 ◼   ► - Sorry.

00:53:39 ◼   ► - What was I even saying?

00:53:40 ◼   ► Oh, so-

00:53:41 ◼   ► - Rogue Amoeba.

00:53:41 ◼   ► - Yeah, Rogue Amoeba has had it with your complaints

00:53:44 ◼   ► about their apps not running in the betas.

00:53:46 ◼   ► They just disable them.

00:53:47 ◼   ► They, if you try to launch their apps in a beta,

00:53:50 ◼   ► they're like, this app doesn't work in the beta.

00:53:52 ◼   ► They just have built that in and I rely on them.

00:53:55 ◼   ► So I can't do that.

00:53:57 ◼   ► So the problem is the way Apple distributes the beta

00:54:01 ◼   ► is via a development profile,

00:54:02 ◼   ► a developer profile that you download.

00:54:04 ◼   ► That's a basically,

00:54:06 ◼   ► it changes where the software update server looks.

00:54:09 ◼   ► - Yeah.

00:54:09 ◼   ► - It looks at different software update server

00:54:12 ◼   ► and there's one for public beta.

00:54:13 ◼   ► There's also one for developer beta.

00:54:15 ◼   ► And when you press, so I did that and I restarted

00:54:18 ◼   ► 'cause I thought, well, I'm gonna do this

00:54:19 ◼   ► and then I'm gonna go in and I'm gonna download it

00:54:22 ◼   ► or whatever.

00:54:22 ◼   ► And then I got distracted, there was a lot going on.

00:54:25 ◼   ► And I came back and there was a thing that was like,

00:54:28 ◼   ► like, do you want me to go ahead with this or whatever?

00:54:31 ◼   ► And I'm like, sure.

00:54:32 ◼   ► And then I went, no.

00:54:33 ◼   ► - Oh, 'cause that machine, I see.

00:54:36 ◼   ► - And it doesn't update.

00:54:37 ◼   ► - Yes.

00:54:38 ◼   ► - To the existing system.

00:54:39 ◼   ► - Yup.

00:54:40 ◼   ► - So my complaint to Apple.

00:54:41 ◼   ► - This is why I always at a certain point,

00:54:42 ◼   ► get rid of that.

00:54:43 ◼   ► Like I get rid of it from my iPad or whatever.

00:54:44 ◼   ► - Yeah, so my complaint to Apple, and again,

00:54:47 ◼   ► correct me if there's another way to do this,

00:54:48 ◼   ► but I want to download it and install it

00:54:53 ◼   ► on a different target.

00:54:55 ◼   ► That's what I wanna do.

00:54:57 ◼   ► And I don't think you can.

00:54:59 ◼   ► I think the way I ended up doing this last year

00:55:02 ◼   ► was making a new target, installing the current OS

00:55:05 ◼   ► at a blank form on that target, booting into that OS,

00:55:10 ◼   ► putting the profile on there,

00:55:13 ◼   ► and then updating it to the beta.

00:55:15 ◼   ► But that's dumb.

00:55:15 ◼   ► I just did two OS installs when I could have done one.

00:55:18 ◼   ► So that would be my complaint,

00:55:20 ◼   ► is it ought to be easier to get an install target

00:55:23 ◼   ► that is not just an upgrade to the existing one.

00:55:28 ◼   ► Anyway, it was too late.

00:55:29 ◼   ► I did it and I thought that I was gonna be able

00:55:32 ◼   ► to swerve away and I did not swerve away,

00:55:34 ◼   ► at which point my system has been updated to the beta,

00:55:38 ◼   ► my audio recording stuff no longer works.

00:55:40 ◼   ► What am I gonna do?

00:55:42 ◼   ► And the answer was that in the end,

00:55:46 ◼   ► 'cause I got lots of backups,

00:55:49 ◼   ► I got a carbon copy cloner backup,

00:55:50 ◼   ► I got a time machine backup.

00:55:52 ◼   ► In the end, what I did was I tried to migrate

00:55:56 ◼   ► and I had some issues where I used migration assistant

00:56:00 ◼   ► to migrate my files from my backup

00:56:03 ◼   ► to a new Monterey install.

00:56:06 ◼   ► And everything went there except that

00:56:11 ◼   ► that neither Dropbox nor iCloud Drive was functional.

00:56:16 ◼   ► So like iCloud Drive,

00:56:19 ◼   ► it just sat at setting up iCloud Drive.

00:56:21 ◼   ► I left it overnight, still sat there.

00:56:23 ◼   ► And Dropbox also just basically stopped working.

00:56:26 ◼   ► - That sounds horrible.

00:56:28 ◼   ► I hate this.

00:56:29 ◼   ► - Well, I hate it too.

00:56:30 ◼   ► It was horrible.

00:56:31 ◼   ► So what I decided to do is I installed,

00:56:35 ◼   ► I made a new volume

00:56:38 ◼   ► and installed a new version of Monterey on it.

00:56:41 ◼   ► wiped the Monterey version I'd been playing with.

00:56:44 ◼   ► And on this one, I think I only,

00:56:47 ◼   ► oh no, no, I didn't install a new version of Monterey.

00:56:49 ◼   ► I deleted my user.

00:56:50 ◼   ► I deleted my user and I made a new user.

00:56:53 ◼   ► So I was starting fresh with an asterisk,

00:56:57 ◼   ► which is I was starting fresh, all my apps were installed.

00:57:00 ◼   ► So that was good.

00:57:02 ◼   ► But all my user folder stuff was not.

00:57:04 ◼   ► That was not installed.

00:57:06 ◼   ► Oh, the wind is picking up.

00:57:07 ◼   ► We might get blown away.

00:57:08 ◼   ► - It's nice.

00:57:09 ◼   ► - It is, it's a pleasant day.

00:57:10 ◼   ► It's 70 degrees right here.

00:57:13 ◼   ► I can tell you it's in my menu bar.

00:57:15 ◼   ► - Oh, cause we've got the weather station.

00:57:16 ◼   ► - It's like right over there.

00:57:17 ◼   ► - I can see a hummingbird.

00:57:21 ◼   ► - Yeah.

00:57:22 ◼   ► Yeah, there's like a hummingbird,

00:57:23 ◼   ► my neighbor has a hummingbird feeder.

00:57:24 ◼   ► - I can see it, it's beautiful.

00:57:25 ◼   ► I can see it, it's humming around.

00:57:27 ◼   ► - Yeah, no cats have appeared yet.

00:57:28 ◼   ► - Man, we should always record like this.

00:57:30 ◼   ► - Just outside.

00:57:31 ◼   ► - I mean, it's a commute for me.

00:57:32 ◼   ► - Somewhere in California, yeah, I know.

00:57:33 ◼   ► - It's nice.

00:57:34 ◼   ► - We'll bank them.

00:57:35 ◼   ► We'll come out and record like 20 episodes of Upgrade.

00:57:37 ◼   ► - Every episode is basically a draft at that point.

00:57:40 ◼   ► - Of something.

00:57:41 ◼   ► So anyway, yeah, so iCloud Drive wasn't working

00:57:46 ◼   ► and I sync a bunch of stuff.

00:57:49 ◼   ► So many apps sync stuff with iCloud Drive,

00:57:51 ◼   ► like I couldn't not use it.

00:57:52 ◼   ► My BPA preferences are in there, like everything's in there.

00:57:55 ◼   ► - Oh God.

00:57:56 ◼   ► - So what I did was, so I did the thing where I made

00:57:59 ◼   ► a new user that's an admin, then I logged in as the admin,

00:58:02 ◼   ► then I deleted my JSONL user.

00:58:05 ◼   ► - JSONL.

00:58:06 ◼   ► made a new JSONL user and deleted the admin account. And now I'm back, except I have nothing

00:58:14 ◼   ► in my user folder. And so it was, and I decided like, this is what I'm going to do. I'm just

00:58:20 ◼   ► going to start fresh and clean, keeping in mind that my old user folder is on the computer.

00:58:27 ◼   ► It's sitting there. So I can copy anything I need from the user folder if I need it,

00:58:33 ◼   ► I'm gonna go, I'm gonna start fresh.

00:58:35 ◼   ► So, you know, over the course of that day,

00:58:38 ◼   ► I kept launching apps and having to look up

00:58:40 ◼   ► their serial number or all of that.

00:58:42 ◼   ► I didn't love that part.

00:58:43 ◼   ► - You had all of the pain parts of getting a new computer

00:58:47 ◼   ► without actually getting one.

00:58:48 ◼   ► - Yeah, exactly right.

00:58:50 ◼   ► But I cloud drive worked and Dropbox worked.

00:58:51 ◼   ► So that was good.

00:58:53 ◼   ► So yeah, a combination of starting things up fresh

00:58:58 ◼   ► and putting the serial numbers,

00:58:59 ◼   ► all the App Store stuff just worked because App Store.

00:59:03 ◼   ► And then sometimes I'd launch an app and I'd be like,

00:59:05 ◼   ► oh, this app looks really weird,

00:59:07 ◼   ► or it doesn't have my stuff.

00:59:09 ◼   ► And then I would quit out of the app

00:59:11 ◼   ► and I would open my user folder and the old user folder.

00:59:16 ◼   ► And well, not Ventura from my backup

00:59:18 ◼   ► from right before Ventura got installed.

00:59:20 ◼   ► And I would pull over like the preferences files

00:59:22 ◼   ► and like the stream deck had nothing.

00:59:27 ◼   ► And I looked online like, where is the stream deck file kept?

00:59:30 ◼   ► And it said, oh, it's here.

00:59:31 ◼   ► And I copied those over and it still had nothing

00:59:34 ◼   ► on the stream deck.

00:59:35 ◼   ► I'm like, do I have to remake the entire stream deck?

00:59:36 ◼   ► And then I found a post somewhere that said,

00:59:39 ◼   ► it's actually in this other folder.

00:59:41 ◼   ► It's not in the Elgato folder.

00:59:43 ◼   ► It's in the com.elgato.streamdeck folder.

00:59:48 ◼   ► And I copied that over and then it worked.

00:59:49 ◼   ► So it was an adventure game of like, where are the,

00:59:52 ◼   ► like I opened the logic and logic looked weird.

00:59:54 ◼   ► And I'm like, no.

00:59:55 ◼   ► And I had to go copy all the logic files over

00:59:57 ◼   ► and reauthenticate.

00:59:59 ◼   ► And so, now I'm back basically up and running fresh,

01:00:02 ◼   ► but it took a little while to get there.

01:00:05 ◼   ► - So you're not gonna be running Ventura anymore then?

01:00:08 ◼   ► - Well, I have Ventura on there and the old one.

01:00:12 ◼   ► - So you can boot into that?

01:00:13 ◼   ► - I can boot into Ventura.

01:00:14 ◼   ► - Okay.

01:00:15 ◼   ► - But I'm not gonna live there because again,

01:00:17 ◼   ► I can't do any podcasts or anything there.

01:00:19 ◼   ► - You're not gonna live there.

01:00:21 ◼   ► - No, you don't wanna just visit.

01:00:23 ◼   ► - Not sure I agree with the audio hijack thing

01:00:26 ◼   ► of like, we're just not gonna let you use our apps.

01:00:29 ◼   ► Like I understand the frustration as a developer

01:00:31 ◼   ► trying to support someone during that period,

01:00:34 ◼   ► but unless they know it's 100% definitely broken,

01:00:38 ◼   ► I think that that's surely only going to cause more issues

01:00:43 ◼   ► for them from a support perspective than less.

01:00:45 ◼   ► - I get that they've been burned by it,

01:00:47 ◼   ► but that's my question is, do you know that it doesn't work?

01:00:50 ◼   ► Because if it does work and you're disabling it

01:00:53 ◼   ► out of some sort of beta spite, that's not great.

01:00:56 ◼   ► - But like, you know, if you think,

01:00:57 ◼   ► it might work say 50% of people, right?

01:01:02 ◼   ► So you're only gonna hear from 50% of your users

01:01:04 ◼   ► that installed that little problem.

01:01:05 ◼   ► - But now it's 100%.

01:01:06 ◼   ► - But now you're gonna hear from 100% of people.

01:01:07 ◼   ► People that are just gonna be mad at you.

01:01:09 ◼   ► - Right.

01:01:10 ◼   ► - I'd be surprised if they did.

01:01:11 ◼   ► - Well, and this was obviously preemptive, right?

01:01:13 ◼   ► The moment that I installed it,

01:01:15 ◼   ► it's not like there had been an update.

01:01:16 ◼   ► It was waiting for the new version.

01:01:18 ◼   ► - It didn't matter what it was.

01:01:19 ◼   ► - So that it could disable itself.

01:01:20 ◼   ► - Yeah, it could have been a new version of macOS

01:01:22 ◼   ► that changed nothing.

01:01:23 ◼   ► - It is possible. - But it's just a version

01:01:24 ◼   ► that nobody don't know.

01:01:24 ◼   ► - Since they've got weird extensions and stuff,

01:01:26 ◼   ► it's possible that they actually have to explicitly

01:01:29 ◼   ► sign or code or something the extension

01:01:32 ◼   ► in order for it to work with a specific OS version

01:01:34 ◼   ► and that they can't do it, it's possible.

01:01:36 ◼   ► But it doesn't feel like that to me.

01:01:38 ◼   ► It feels like they got burned so many times

01:01:39 ◼   ► that they just turned it off.

01:01:41 ◼   ► - I feel like if it was that, she say,

01:01:43 ◼   ► then they would have this at every point release,

01:01:46 ◼   ► wouldn't they?

01:01:47 ◼   ► - Yeah, that's probably true.

01:01:48 ◼   ► Probably too.

01:01:49 ◼   ► If they check it out with the betas

01:01:52 ◼   ► and it actually does work okay,

01:01:54 ◼   ► they should not turn it off.

01:01:56 ◼   ► Or they should do an update that turns it back on.

01:01:59 ◼   ► But yeah.

01:02:00 ◼   ► - Aside from your Ventura disaster,

01:02:04 ◼   ► have you been running any other betas?

01:02:06 ◼   ► - I have.

01:02:07 ◼   ► I spent, while all this was going on on my Mac,

01:02:09 ◼   ► I did spend a lot of time.

01:02:11 ◼   ► So as you know, I currently possess two studio displays

01:02:14 ◼   ► because I don't have to send my studio display back

01:02:17 ◼   ► until the end of the summer.

01:02:18 ◼   ► And I am going to take that extended,

01:02:20 ◼   ► it's not even extended, a long loan period.

01:02:22 ◼   ► and I'm using it 'cause it's been valuable.

01:02:24 ◼   ► I got to update the firmware in one

01:02:25 ◼   ► and not the other and all of that.

01:02:27 ◼   ► So I set up a little iPad station

01:02:30 ◼   ► with an iPad Air, M1 iPad Air,

01:02:33 ◼   ► 'cause again, I didn't wanna go into the beta world

01:02:36 ◼   ► on my iPad Pro, but I have an M1 iPad Air.

01:02:40 ◼   ► So I installed the beta on that

01:02:43 ◼   ► and attached it to a studio display

01:02:44 ◼   ► and attached it to a keyboard and a Magic Trackpad

01:02:47 ◼   ► and set it up as a little alternate computer

01:02:49 ◼   ► next to my computer.

01:02:50 ◼   ► - The M1 iPad here is a fantastic iPad.

01:02:54 ◼   ► - You liking it?

01:02:55 ◼   ► - I love it because I mean, for me,

01:02:58 ◼   ► it has everything the iPad Pro does, 11 inch.

01:03:03 ◼   ► - And Touch ID versus Face ID?

01:03:06 ◼   ► - Yeah, I mean, that's the only downside that I've found

01:03:09 ◼   ► because compared to my iPad Mini,

01:03:12 ◼   ► the screen is so much better, oh my God.

01:03:16 ◼   ► The iPad Mini, I know they say it's not even,

01:03:19 ◼   ► It's not the same.

01:03:20 ◼   ► The quality of that screen is nowhere near as good.

01:03:23 ◼   ► The iPad Air's screen looks absolutely fantastic.

01:03:26 ◼   ► I've been really enjoying it, really enjoying it.

01:03:28 ◼   ► That's the only beta I've used myself is iPadOS.

01:03:32 ◼   ► Obviously I haven't had an external display or anything

01:03:34 ◼   ► but I brought my 2018 11 inch with me

01:03:38 ◼   ► with the Magic Keyboard.

01:03:39 ◼   ► And now I'm using the Magic Keyboard with this iPad Air.

01:03:43 ◼   ► And I've got to say, big fan of Stage Manager.

01:03:47 ◼   ► - Yeah.

01:03:48 ◼   ► I wanna keep trying to call it center stage in my brain.

01:03:51 ◼   ► - Yeah, I know, center stage.

01:03:52 ◼   ► - I really like it.

01:03:55 ◼   ► I really like it.

01:03:56 ◼   ► - I don't know what to think of it.

01:04:01 ◼   ► I think it's rough

01:04:01 ◼   ► and I think that there's a lot of work they have to do.

01:04:03 ◼   ► - Oh, it's rough.

01:04:04 ◼   ► - If I give them the benefit of the doubt

01:04:06 ◼   ► that they have the whole summer to kind of like shape it up,

01:04:09 ◼   ► I think it's got a lot of potential.

01:04:11 ◼   ► I'm happier that it exists.

01:04:13 ◼   ► Even in its current state,

01:04:14 ◼   ► I'm kind of happier that it exists

01:04:16 ◼   ► than that it didn't exist, right?

01:04:17 ◼   ► like I want this to exist.

01:04:19 ◼   ► Well, here it is.

01:04:20 ◼   ► The fact that you can use an iPad

01:04:22 ◼   ► with a windowing mode on your iPad,

01:04:25 ◼   ► but also that you can do the external display thing,

01:04:27 ◼   ► which is like just mind blowing to sit down.

01:04:31 ◼   ► And it looks like it looks, I sent you a picture.

01:04:33 ◼   ► I sent you and Steven a picture

01:04:34 ◼   ► of what looks like a Mac, right?

01:04:37 ◼   ► It looks, it's a studio display with some windows open

01:04:41 ◼   ► and a backdrop picture, and it's an iPad.

01:04:44 ◼   ► - And there's a dock.

01:04:45 ◼   ► - And there's a dock at the bottom, right?

01:04:47 ◼   ► which is your tell with me,

01:04:49 ◼   ► 'cause the doc wouldn't be on the right side.

01:04:51 ◼   ► - I wouldn't be on the bottom either, I'm not a monster.

01:04:54 ◼   ► - But there it is, 'cause that's the,

01:04:55 ◼   ► you have no choice on the iPad.

01:04:57 ◼   ► It's that you're gonna get it the way they want.

01:04:59 ◼   ► It is, you know, part of it is getting used to it,

01:05:05 ◼   ► 'cause it is a different system.

01:05:06 ◼   ► Part of it is the weirdness

01:05:08 ◼   ► of the different size classes in the app.

01:05:09 ◼   ► So resizing is kind of an adventure, right?

01:05:12 ◼   ► It's like, imagine you have a friendly dog

01:05:16 ◼   ► and then you resize the window and it's an angry dog.

01:05:19 ◼   ► It's a little like that, right?

01:05:20 ◼   ► Where you're like, oh, it's a different app now.

01:05:21 ◼   ► And some of the apps don't, bless their hearts,

01:05:24 ◼   ► some of the apps don't have any idea what they're doing.

01:05:26 ◼   ► Like Slack, and again,

01:05:29 ◼   ► it wasn't written with this mode in mind.

01:05:31 ◼   ► They didn't even know it existed, but it's still hilarious.

01:05:33 ◼   ► Like Slack in Stage Manager just won't show the sidebar

01:05:38 ◼   ► unless it's in full screen.

01:05:39 ◼   ► It's like, no, no, I don't know what size this is,

01:05:41 ◼   ► but it's not full screen, so no sidebar for you.

01:05:44 ◼   ► And that's just like, I mean, they'll fix it.

01:05:46 ◼   ► - And every app is struggling with the keyboard.

01:05:50 ◼   ► - Oh yeah, I mean, 'cause again, they don't know,

01:05:52 ◼   ► these are all, I think it's amazing that they work at all.

01:05:55 ◼   ► - I can't believe. - With stock apps,

01:05:56 ◼   ► but that's because Apple has been using

01:05:59 ◼   ► these kind of window, you know,

01:06:01 ◼   ► window management APIs for multitasking.

01:06:03 ◼   ► And so these poor little apps,

01:06:05 ◼   ► they don't know that they're in stage manager.

01:06:07 ◼   ► They just think they're in a weird multitasking mode.

01:06:09 ◼   ► - Like the original multitasking,

01:06:11 ◼   ► where the only apps you could try out is Apple's apps.

01:06:14 ◼   ► but every app works to some degree.

01:06:16 ◼   ► - To some degree.

01:06:17 ◼   ► - Like if it can do a split screen,

01:06:18 ◼   ► it will work with stage manager.

01:06:20 ◼   ► And like, you know, there are weird parts of it

01:06:22 ◼   ► where like on the iPad version of this,

01:06:25 ◼   ► it wants the apps to be in certain sizes

01:06:28 ◼   ► and in certain positions

01:06:29 ◼   ► and Apple's gonna put them there for you.

01:06:31 ◼   ► And it does this thing where it's like,

01:06:32 ◼   ► you want two apps that overlap each other.

01:06:34 ◼   ► You can kind of see one out the back

01:06:36 ◼   ► so you can tap on it and bring it to the front.

01:06:37 ◼   ► - Right.

01:06:38 ◼   ► - But like, it's done a thing for me,

01:06:40 ◼   ► which I've really enjoyed,

01:06:41 ◼   ► which is like three or four app multitasking.

01:06:44 ◼   ► - Yeah.

01:06:44 ◼   ► - And that's just not a thing you could do before.

01:06:46 ◼   ► - I know.

01:06:47 ◼   ► - Like, and I've been doing multitasking

01:06:48 ◼   ► without a keyboard in portrait mode

01:06:50 ◼   ► and you can have two apps in horizontal

01:06:53 ◼   ► on top of each other.

01:06:54 ◼   ► - Oh, isn't that nice?

01:06:55 ◼   ► - And it's really nice.

01:06:56 ◼   ► It's like a different way of doing things

01:06:57 ◼   ► where it's like there are certain apps

01:06:59 ◼   ► where like that is actually just a nicer experience.

01:07:01 ◼   ► - I think one of the big things that is not,

01:07:04 ◼   ► I mean, again, developer beta one,

01:07:05 ◼   ► like there's so much more ground to cover here

01:07:08 ◼   ► before they are done.

01:07:10 ◼   ► But one of the things that struck me is that

01:07:13 ◼   ► these apps all run, which is great,

01:07:15 ◼   ► but most apps don't understand the concept

01:07:19 ◼   ► of multiple windows.

01:07:20 ◼   ► - Even Safari.

01:07:21 ◼   ► - Even Safari. - Doesn't even work out

01:07:23 ◼   ► what's going on.

01:07:24 ◼   ► - You should be able to drag a tab out of Safari, right?

01:07:26 ◼   ► And make a new window next to it

01:07:27 ◼   ► so you can have two different,

01:07:28 ◼   ► 'cause that's actually a common use case.

01:07:30 ◼   ► - I've been in a stage. - Comparing two documents

01:07:31 ◼   ► in Safari.

01:07:32 ◼   ► - I was doing this today to prepare for the show.

01:07:34 ◼   ► I had a stage that had Google Docs,

01:07:37 ◼   ► Notes and a Safari window, right?

01:07:39 ◼   ► - Yeah.

01:07:40 ◼   ► - So I'd tap a link in notes and it would go

01:07:42 ◼   ► to another stage and open a brand new Safari window.

01:07:46 ◼   ► What are you doing?

01:07:47 ◼   ► - There's some bugs, I was logging into Slack

01:07:48 ◼   ► and Slack needed to open Safari to log me in.

01:07:51 ◼   ► And all of a sudden the whole thing just got sucked over

01:07:54 ◼   ► onto the iPad screen from the external display.

01:07:58 ◼   ► And that's, you know, it's a combination of there's bugs

01:08:00 ◼   ► in the betas because they're betas.

01:08:02 ◼   ► And not all the apps know about this yet

01:08:06 ◼   ► that it's all gonna get worked out,

01:08:07 ◼   ► but I'm encouraged by it, right?

01:08:09 ◼   ► Like it's not gonna be for everyone.

01:08:10 ◼   ► That's the beauty of the fact that it's a little button

01:08:12 ◼   ► that you choose in control center.

01:08:14 ◼   ► And if you're not in it, it just is a normal iPad.

01:08:17 ◼   ► - It's the promo button, right?

01:08:18 ◼   ► It's like, now I'm going into promo.

01:08:19 ◼   ► - It essentially is that, right.

01:08:21 ◼   ► And I think it's gonna be good.

01:08:26 ◼   ► I think like, again, I haven't,

01:08:30 ◼   ► give me some time to like think about it philosophically

01:08:32 ◼   ► and some of the choices they've made may be a little weird

01:08:34 ◼   ► and maybe they'll tweak them as they go.

01:08:36 ◼   ► but I'm encouraged by it because it is,

01:08:39 ◼   ► I think in the grand tradition,

01:08:40 ◼   ► like with the cursor support, the pointer support

01:08:43 ◼   ► of Apple taking a thing that we know

01:08:46 ◼   ► that is so familiar from 1984

01:08:49 ◼   ► and trying to do their modern take on it.

01:08:52 ◼   ► And some of the things that they're doing

01:08:54 ◼   ► are gonna frustrate some users,

01:08:55 ◼   ► but like not being able to lose a window

01:08:58 ◼   ► behind another window is actually really important

01:09:01 ◼   ► for usability because it's really easy to lose a window.

01:09:05 ◼   ► Having a shelf with window sets on it is interesting.

01:09:10 ◼   ► I'm not sure it's right, but it's,

01:09:15 ◼   ► I get what they're doing there,

01:09:16 ◼   ► even though I'm not sure

01:09:17 ◼   ► if the implementation is exactly right.

01:09:19 ◼   ► The ironically, when they introduced the little thing

01:09:22 ◼   ► at the top of every window,

01:09:24 ◼   ► the multitasking little widget nubbin thing in iPadOS 15,

01:09:29 ◼   ► a lot of the complaints were that it was a wasted space

01:09:34 ◼   ► and it was too big and it got in the way.

01:09:37 ◼   ► And I know when I'm editing in ferrite,

01:09:39 ◼   ► I tap it by mistake all the time

01:09:40 ◼   ► and I'm super frustrated by it.

01:09:42 ◼   ► Well, guess what?

01:09:43 ◼   ► It needs to be bigger.

01:09:44 ◼   ► It needs to be a bigger target

01:09:45 ◼   ► because it's now super important

01:09:47 ◼   ► 'cause you need to do things like dismiss a window

01:09:49 ◼   ► and send it out off over into the shelf.

01:09:52 ◼   ► - I don't wanna ever have to hit the three dots.

01:09:54 ◼   ► I want that thing there permanently.

01:09:57 ◼   ► It annoys me.

01:09:58 ◼   ► - With the controls on it.

01:09:59 ◼   ► - Yes, that I have to.

01:10:00 ◼   ► - Like the little three things on the Mac.

01:10:02 ◼   ► - It annoys me that I have to hit the three dots

01:10:04 ◼   ► and then hit the thing to make it go full screen.

01:10:06 ◼   ► - So it's two clicks or taps.

01:10:06 ◼   ► - I just want it there all the time now.

01:10:08 ◼   ► - 'Cause you wanna be able to send that window away.

01:10:11 ◼   ► - Go away or let me open this in full screen for a second.

01:10:14 ◼   ► - Yeah, so there's some functionality

01:10:17 ◼   ► and some interaction stuff there

01:10:19 ◼   ► that I have some questions about.

01:10:21 ◼   ► I also am not entirely convinced

01:10:25 ◼   ► that having the dock and the shelf

01:10:28 ◼   ► is not a really weird mixed metaphor.

01:10:33 ◼   ► I get why they're not the same.

01:10:35 ◼   ► And so I get why they're visible.

01:10:39 ◼   ► And sometimes what I found in my brief use of it is,

01:10:43 ◼   ► sometimes that's the best way to bail out of something.

01:10:46 ◼   ► And you're like, how do I do this?

01:10:47 ◼   ► And the answer is, I'm just gonna click in the dock

01:10:49 ◼   ► and drag out the Safari icon and make a new Safari window,

01:10:52 ◼   ► which you can do, which is actually kind of a great thing.

01:10:54 ◼   ► But yet now I've got these things over here

01:10:56 ◼   ► and these things over here and like,

01:10:58 ◼   ► it's, there's a lot and there are a jaunty angle.

01:11:02 ◼   ► - I don't like the joint, I wish,

01:11:04 ◼   ► one thing I wish it would do on the iPad,

01:11:05 ◼   ► if I click the desktop, it takes me to the home screen,

01:11:09 ◼   ► that's what I want it to do, it doesn't do that,

01:11:10 ◼   ► I wish it didn't do that.

01:11:11 ◼   ► - Yeah.

01:11:12 ◼   ► - I like that you can kind of make the dock disappear

01:11:15 ◼   ► if you want to, you just gotta make the app big enough,

01:11:17 ◼   ► that's kinda good. - Yeah, yeah,

01:11:18 ◼   ► that's something that people might not have realized,

01:11:20 ◼   ► that if you wanna make the dock, or the shelf,

01:11:23 ◼   ► whatever they call it, I've just been calling it the shelf,

01:11:25 ◼   ► disappear, literally all you do is move your window over it,

01:11:28 ◼   ► or make your window tall enough,

01:11:30 ◼   ► and the dock just goes away, - Just goes away.

01:11:32 ◼   ► because you say I want to use that space,

01:11:34 ◼   ► which is good because the most frustrating

01:11:37 ◼   ► center stage experience is you have one window.

01:11:39 ◼   ► - Stage manager.

01:11:40 ◼   ► - Oh, sorry, stage manager.

01:11:42 ◼   ► You're doing it to me.

01:11:43 ◼   ► One window and it's sort of like a window

01:11:45 ◼   ► inside an iPad window with all the things around.

01:11:48 ◼   ► And it's like, well, that's a waste of space.

01:11:51 ◼   ► You should take it to full screen mode

01:11:52 ◼   ► if you're going to leave it like that.

01:11:54 ◼   ► And that's why it would be nice to have a button

01:11:56 ◼   ► to just say, make this full screen right here,

01:11:59 ◼   ► because some apps are better in full screen.

01:12:01 ◼   ► So it's a work in progress, it's a beta,

01:12:04 ◼   ► but I think it's got a lot of potential.

01:12:05 ◼   ► And I think that-

01:12:06 ◼   ► - I'm actually having used it for the past five,

01:12:10 ◼   ► six days on iPad.

01:12:11 ◼   ► I can't wait to use it on my Mac.

01:12:13 ◼   ► I'm a spaces user.

01:12:16 ◼   ► I have like two spaces.

01:12:17 ◼   ► And I would like to have more.

01:12:20 ◼   ► And I tried this for a while.

01:12:21 ◼   ► I set up like four spaces.

01:12:22 ◼   ► So none of my windows overlapped,

01:12:24 ◼   ► but then it was too much zoom in backwards

01:12:26 ◼   ► and forwards all the time.

01:12:27 ◼   ► And I'm like, swipe, swipe, swipe, swipe.

01:12:30 ◼   ► But with stage manager, it's all kind of feels like

01:12:32 ◼   ► it's there, like it's what I found with the iPad.

01:12:35 ◼   ► It all just feels like it's there.

01:12:37 ◼   ► And the animation of bringing the apps forward

01:12:40 ◼   ► is way nicer.

01:12:41 ◼   ► I find it way nicer than the way it was on iPad

01:12:44 ◼   ► where it's like things are spinning around all the time.

01:12:46 ◼   ► Right? - Right.

01:12:48 ◼   ► - I think this is a nicer way of doing things.

01:12:50 ◼   ► And I could imagine collecting up all of my apps

01:12:53 ◼   ► into these little stages.

01:12:55 ◼   ► I'm pretty into it as a feature.

01:12:57 ◼   ► I think this is the best foundation

01:13:02 ◼   ► that they are building from, I think.

01:13:04 ◼   ► I think this is better than the split screen foundation

01:13:07 ◼   ► from iOS 9.

01:13:08 ◼   ► I think this is a place where there could be

01:13:10 ◼   ► a lot more expandability.

01:13:12 ◼   ► If you may allow me actually,

01:13:14 ◼   ► we could go into a very quick rumor roundup.

01:13:16 ◼   ► - Yeah, I was gonna say one of the things that this implies

01:13:19 ◼   ► is the future of the iPad.

01:13:22 ◼   ► Just to maybe close on stage manager a moment

01:13:26 ◼   ► before we leap over the fence into the corral,

01:13:30 ◼   ► is this, I think that if I had to boil down my concerns

01:13:34 ◼   ► about stage manager as of beta one right now,

01:13:37 ◼   ► the two that I have that are the biggest are actually,

01:13:41 ◼   ► I'm not sure that that shelf is quite right.

01:13:46 ◼   ► - Yeah.

01:13:46 ◼   ► - And what you said, which is, I think controls

01:13:51 ◼   ► for moving windows around need to not be hidden

01:13:56 ◼   ► behind a very hard to tap on little widget

01:14:00 ◼   ► that then exposes more controls.

01:14:02 ◼   ► I think that there needs to be a much easier way

01:14:06 ◼   ► to very quickly rearrange or send off individual windows.

01:14:11 ◼   ► And it's just not there yet.

01:14:12 ◼   ► I think that needs to be more explicit.

01:14:15 ◼   ► - Rumor round up. - Yeah.

01:14:17 ◼   ► - Ross Young, display analyst,

01:14:19 ◼   ► is reporting that a 4.1 inch iPad Pro

01:14:23 ◼   ► is currently in development for release in early 2023,

01:14:26 ◼   ► featuring a mini LED promotion display.

01:14:30 ◼   ► It's been corroborated by Mark Gorman at Bloomberg,

01:14:33 ◼   ► who also says next year,

01:14:35 ◼   ► Mark also talks about 11 and 12.9 inch iPad Pro updates

01:14:39 ◼   ► on the horizon for this year as well.

01:14:41 ◼   ► Makes sense, go bigger, keep going bigger now.

01:14:43 ◼   ► - Yeah, this is the,

01:14:46 ◼   ► in fact, it's funny, I was listening to ATP from last week,

01:14:48 ◼   ► which is three hours long. - I said four,

01:14:49 ◼   ► - 14.1, I said 4.1.

01:14:51 ◼   ► - 4.1, it's a mini, mini, mini, mini.

01:14:53 ◼   ► - Pocket iPad, 14.1 inches.

01:14:55 ◼   ► - But it's scroll, it's a foldable.

01:14:56 ◼   ► - I have a COVID brain, what do you want from me?

01:14:58 ◼   ► - Okay, ATP last week, before this rumor came out,

01:15:01 ◼   ► they were talking about stage manager and Syracuse,

01:15:04 ◼   ► I think said, "Hey, bring on the bigger iPads."

01:15:09 ◼   ► And you know, we were all thinking it,

01:15:11 ◼   ► but like then this rumor comes out and it's like,

01:15:13 ◼   ► well, of course, because once you've got this system,

01:15:17 ◼   ► 'Cause if you just scale the existing full screen

01:15:19 ◼   ► and split screen modes, I think it shows you here

01:15:22 ◼   ► with the external display support being added too.

01:15:25 ◼   ► This is Apple sort of saying,

01:15:26 ◼   ► we don't think it makes like a full screen app makes sense

01:15:30 ◼   ► in these bigger sizes.

01:15:31 ◼   ► It's just kind of ridiculous.

01:15:33 ◼   ► Well, now that this is here,

01:15:34 ◼   ► they could do that and bring it on.

01:15:36 ◼   ► Like I think, is it gonna be for everyone?

01:15:38 ◼   ► Does everybody want a 15 inch iPad?

01:15:40 ◼   ► Well, no, but people have 15 inch laptops

01:15:43 ◼   ► and they like those and I could see it.

01:15:46 ◼   ► I could see some interesting accessories here.

01:15:48 ◼   ► Maybe there's, you know, something,

01:15:50 ◼   ► maybe it's just a giant Magic Keyboard,

01:15:52 ◼   ► but maybe there's, they have some other weird stand

01:15:54 ◼   ► that they do with it that lets you create

01:15:56 ◼   ► your little Surface Studio kind of thing on your desk.

01:15:59 ◼   ► I don't know.

01:16:00 ◼   ► - I mean, like, you say like 14 inches,

01:16:02 ◼   ► that seems too big for iPad,

01:16:04 ◼   ► but that's as big as my MacBook

01:16:08 ◼   ► that I've got in front of me right now.

01:16:10 ◼   ► And like, I'm not like, oh, this thing is unwieldy, you know.

01:16:13 ◼   ► - No, that's, and-- - It's just a laptop size.

01:16:15 ◼   ► And that's a laptop with the whole keyboard attached to it too, whereas this would just be a screen.

01:16:20 ◼   ► I think, yeah, I mean there's the argument that as an iPad being something you hold in your hands, it's kind of big.

01:16:26 ◼   ► But yeah, I think the truth is either the people who are complaining about the idea of a bigger iPad,

01:16:33 ◼   ► either it's a failure of imagination or it's simply, it's just sort of not for them.

01:16:37 ◼   ► And that's fine, but there are definitely just artists with the Apple Pencil.

01:16:43 ◼   ► I know that there are people who would die for a 15 inch iPad to have that all addressable

01:16:47 ◼   ► space for Apple Pencil. And then you think about, well, yes, and then you can also put

01:16:51 ◼   ► it in the stage manager mode and put it in a magic keyboard and now you've got a 15 inch

01:16:57 ◼   ► laptop running iPad OS. Like there's so much going on there that there's just a lot of

01:17:04 ◼   ► potential. It's exciting.

01:17:06 ◼   ► You said 15 inches. I think this rumor is 14 inches.

01:17:09 ◼   ► Oh, 14 inches. Okay.

01:17:10 ◼   ► There is a 15 inch rumor, Mark Gurman is reporting that Apple is working on a MacBook Air with

01:17:16 ◼   ► a 15 inch screen for release quote as early as next spring, also developing what would

01:17:23 ◼   ► be its smallest laptop in years, a new 12 inch laptop by the end of 2023.

01:17:29 ◼   ► So what we're looking at is next year, assumedly taking this current MacBook Air design and

01:17:35 ◼   ► and going both bigger and smaller with it

01:17:38 ◼   ► to have three MacBook Airs in the lineup.

01:17:40 ◼   ► - Yeah.

01:17:41 ◼   ► I think that this is partly the dam bursting

01:17:46 ◼   ► because Apple Silicon has enabled new models, right?

01:17:50 ◼   ► And it feels like they were holding off

01:17:52 ◼   ► on a bunch of stuff because of Apple Silicon.

01:17:54 ◼   ► And this MacBook Air design is literally,

01:17:57 ◼   ► now we can design this thing for Apple Silicon.

01:17:59 ◼   ► Whereas the last one was just in the case

01:18:02 ◼   ► of the old MacBook Air and not any different on the outside.

01:18:07 ◼   ► What, three quarters of the Macs, Apple cells, or laptops?

01:18:12 ◼   ► It doesn't actually make sense

01:18:13 ◼   ► for there only to be four models.

01:18:15 ◼   ► - I mean, and they have said our most popular Mac

01:18:17 ◼   ► is the MacBook Air.

01:18:19 ◼   ► - Yes.

01:18:20 ◼   ► - And I mean, I'm sure the thinking is,

01:18:22 ◼   ► which I would agree with,

01:18:23 ◼   ► it would probably be only more popular

01:18:24 ◼   ► if we had it in a bunch of sizes.

01:18:25 ◼   ► - Yeah.

01:18:27 ◼   ► Yeah, I think that's it.

01:18:27 ◼   ► I think that why not,

01:18:29 ◼   ► there are three MacBook Pros and one MacBook Air.

01:18:32 ◼   ► And three quarters of your Mac sales are laptops.

01:18:36 ◼   ► Why would you not market it better

01:18:38 ◼   ► and provide more models and more shapes and sizes?

01:18:42 ◼   ► I know that there's now the M2 and the M1,

01:18:43 ◼   ► but they're functionally,

01:18:46 ◼   ► it's the old and the new of the same,

01:18:49 ◼   ► but a 12 inch Apple Silicon MacBook Air,

01:18:53 ◼   ► 'cause remember the new one is almost 14 inches, right?

01:18:58 ◼   ► It's 13 point...

01:19:00 ◼   ► - Six. - Six?

01:19:01 ◼   ► Like it's getting bigger.

01:19:03 ◼   ► - But it's basically the same, right?

01:19:05 ◼   ► Like it's basically the same.

01:19:06 ◼   ► Like really, I assume they're the same footprint,

01:19:11 ◼   ► but it's just 'cause they decrease the bezels.

01:19:13 ◼   ► - But you could make a smaller laptop.

01:19:14 ◼   ► - Well, but that's the question, right?

01:19:16 ◼   ► Like why do you make-- - With the notch

01:19:17 ◼   ► and all of that, you could make a smaller laptop

01:19:18 ◼   ► that would be narrower and lighter.

01:19:20 ◼   ► It doesn't have a fan just like the Air.

01:19:22 ◼   ► And it's for people, like I was talking to Dan Morin

01:19:25 ◼   ► last Friday for our Six Colors podcast about this.

01:19:27 ◼   ► and like he and I are both like former

01:19:30 ◼   ► 11 inch MacBook Air people.

01:19:31 ◼   ► - Me too.

01:19:32 ◼   ► - It's like, right?

01:19:33 ◼   ► So it's like--

01:19:34 ◼   ► - I would love that little one, oh my God.

01:19:36 ◼   ► - I would take, I would lose a little screen space

01:19:40 ◼   ► to get an even thinner, even lighter 12 inch MacBook Air.

01:19:45 ◼   ► Sign me up for that.

01:19:46 ◼   ► - With all that power in it as well?

01:19:48 ◼   ► - Yeah, and likewise, there are some people

01:19:51 ◼   ► who wanna buy a MacBook Air,

01:19:53 ◼   ► but wish it had a bigger screen.

01:19:55 ◼   ► And right now Apple's whole story is,

01:19:56 ◼   ► well, if you want a bigger screen,

01:19:58 ◼   ► now you're up in the 2000s.

01:19:59 ◼   ► - Yeah.

01:20:00 ◼   ► - In order, $2,000 plus in order to buy,

01:20:02 ◼   ► you have to buy a MacBook Pro.

01:20:03 ◼   ► - Yeah.

01:20:04 ◼   ► - And it's like, does somebody who just wants

01:20:06 ◼   ► a 15 inch screen need an M2 Pro processor?

01:20:11 ◼   ► They don't.

01:20:12 ◼   ► - No.

01:20:13 ◼   ► - They don't.

01:20:14 ◼   ► Some people need it, but there are lots of people

01:20:16 ◼   ► who don't need it.

01:20:17 ◼   ► - Yep.

01:20:18 ◼   ► - And just wanna have a bigger screen.

01:20:20 ◼   ► And so why not let them have that?

01:20:21 ◼   ► Again, what I keep coming back to is,

01:20:24 ◼   ► three quarters of the Mac sold their laptops.

01:20:26 ◼   ► And Apple has not really pushed it for a while

01:20:31 ◼   ► in terms of what they have on offer.

01:20:33 ◼   ► - Because it's like, why not?

01:20:37 ◼   ► Like why does the MacBook Pro,

01:20:39 ◼   ► your less popular laptop come in two sizes?

01:20:43 ◼   ► - Yeah.

01:20:45 ◼   ► - But your most popular laptop comes in one size.

01:20:47 ◼   ► - I guess technically three sizes, but

01:20:50 ◼   ► let's not talk about that. - We don't count

01:20:52 ◼   ► the third-inch MacBook Pro,

01:20:53 ◼   ► 'cause that I think just exists for like legacy reasons.

01:20:58 ◼   ► - And marketing reasons.

01:20:59 ◼   ► - Yeah, and then forget about the cheaper one

01:21:02 ◼   ► because they're functionally the same size.

01:21:03 ◼   ► - Currently the modern,

01:21:05 ◼   ► what we would call modern Mac laptops,

01:21:07 ◼   ► there's the M2 Air and the 14 and the 16 Pro.

01:21:12 ◼   ► - So why not have three MacBook Airs and two Mac Pros?

01:21:17 ◼   ► Why not do that?

01:21:18 ◼   ► - Why not indeed?

01:21:19 ◼   ► Yeah, right?

01:21:20 ◼   ► they will find their own niches.