Upgrade

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00:00:08 ◼   ► music]

00:00:09 ◼   ► From Relay FM, this is Upgrade, episode 429.

00:00:13 ◼   ► Today's show is brought to you by TextExpander, CleanMyMac X, and Doppler.

00:00:18 ◼   ► My name is Myke Hurley, and I'm joined by Jason Snell.

00:00:20 ◼   ► Hi, Jason Snell.

00:00:21 ◼   ► Hi, Myke Hurley.

00:00:22 ◼   ► How are you?

00:00:23 ◼   ► I'm doing okay.

00:00:24 ◼   ► How are you?

00:00:25 ◼   ► I'm pretty good.

00:00:26 ◼   ► I have a #SnellTalk question for you.

00:00:28 ◼   ► Oh, good.

00:00:29 ◼   ► Excellent.

00:00:30 ◼   ► Comes from Ian, who wants to know, "Jason, do you have a favorite smell?"

00:00:34 ◼   ► Hmm, interesting. Send in your smell talk questions, everybody.

00:00:40 ◼   ► This is smell talk.

00:00:41 ◼   ► We're running low.

00:00:42 ◼   ► Right?

00:00:43 ◼   ► I know. It's smell talk. It is. That's what it is now.

00:00:45 ◼   ► Well, you called Jason smell in school.

00:00:48 ◼   ► Oh, yeah. I mean, it's very much that, "Oh, I haven't heard that one before."

00:00:52 ◼   ► Yeah.

00:00:53 ◼   ► I was gonna make a joke here and say, "Well, sure, it's Lauren, but you really don't make me pick between my kids."

00:00:59 ◼   ► and oh you said smell I see. Oh that's good. It's totally different. But the answer, I

00:01:06 ◼   ► thought about this before the show a little bit, trying to ponder, and I'm gonna say orange

00:01:11 ◼   ► blossoms? If you've ever been in a place where there are orange groves, and there used to

00:01:17 ◼   ► be lots of these in Southern California, but there are other places where orange groves,

00:01:22 ◼   ► there's actually, the last time I smelled this was in Phoenix where there are a bunch

00:01:26 ◼   ► of orange trees sort of near where my mother lives and very close to where my sister used

00:01:32 ◼   ► to live. The orange groves, when the orange trees are in bloom, it is amazing. It doesn't

00:01:40 ◼   ► smell like you're in orange juice. That's not what, like a giant vat of orange juice.

00:01:45 ◼   ► That's not what it smells like. It's this very delicate, beautiful scent, floral, obviously,

00:01:50 ◼   ► of the orange trees. So that's my favorite. It's the orange tree, orange blossoms.

00:01:55 ◼   ► That was much more of a sweet answer than I was expecting, honestly.

00:02:00 ◼   ► I didn't know what I was going to get from you.

00:02:02 ◼   ► What?

00:02:03 ◼   ► New car smell that apple candle that's supposed to smell like an apple box?

00:02:07 ◼   ► What else did I consider as a joke answer?

00:02:10 ◼   ► I don't know.

00:02:11 ◼   ► I didn't necessarily think it was going to be technology related.

00:02:14 ◼   ► I thought about petrichor, the smell of after a rain when there hasn't been rain for a while,

00:02:20 ◼   ► you get that smell of like a fresh rain on like concrete or...

00:02:24 ◼   ► - I did not know that had a name.

00:02:26 ◼   ► - It does, petrichor.

00:02:27 ◼   ► It's, I only know about it

00:02:28 ◼   ► 'cause it was in a "Doctor Who" episode,

00:02:30 ◼   ► as a random word that they had to figure out what it meant.

00:02:32 ◼   ► The smell of earth after rain, but it is petrichor.

00:02:35 ◼   ► P-E-T-R-I-C-H-O-R.

00:02:37 ◼   ► - Pleasant smell that frequently accompanies

00:02:39 ◼   ► the first rain after a long period of warm, dry weather.

00:02:42 ◼   ► - Right, and it is a smell.

00:02:44 ◼   ► I mean, you know that smell.

00:02:45 ◼   ► - Oh yeah.

00:02:45 ◼   ► - You know that smell.

00:02:46 ◼   ► That is a great smell.

00:02:48 ◼   ► I do love that smell.

00:02:49 ◼   ► - I have a question for you.

00:02:50 ◼   ► Do you like the smell of gasoline?

00:02:52 ◼   ► - No.

00:02:53 ◼   ► - Oh, I do.

00:02:54 ◼   ► I'm one of those people. - I do not.

00:02:55 ◼   ► - I like the smell.

00:02:57 ◼   ► I like the smell of gasoline.

00:02:58 ◼   ► I know it's bad smell, but I like it.

00:03:00 ◼   ► - That's why I buy electric cars now.

00:03:02 ◼   ► (laughing)

00:03:03 ◼   ► No more gasoline, thank you very much.

00:03:04 ◼   ► - I love the smell of electricity, me.

00:03:06 ◼   ► It's great.

00:03:07 ◼   ► - Oh yeah, give me those electrons, man.

00:03:08 ◼   ► Woo!

00:03:09 ◼   ► - Good smell of electrons in the morning.

00:03:10 ◼   ► - Mm, electrons, smell. - That'll wake you up.

00:03:12 ◼   ► That'll wake you up.

00:03:13 ◼   ► - That's right, you can just get a hot cup of electrons

00:03:15 ◼   ► and you'll start your day.

00:03:16 ◼   ► - Mm-mm-mm.

00:03:17 ◼   ► If you would like to send in a question for us

00:03:20 ◼   ► to open a future episode of the show,

00:03:22 ◼   ► just send out a tweet with the hashtag #snelltalk or use question mark #snelltalk in the RealAFM

00:03:27 ◼   ► members discord. As you can tell, it can be about basically anything. If it piques my

00:03:33 ◼   ► interest enough, then I'll ask Jason.

00:03:35 ◼   ► It actually shouldn't be about technology because really if it's about technology it

00:03:38 ◼   ► should be an ask upgrade question.

00:03:40 ◼   ► I 100% police that. So when people ask SnellTalk questions that should be Ask Upgrade questions,

00:03:46 ◼   ► they just go into my Ask Upgrade section rather than SnellTalk. Don't you worry, I'm on top

00:03:52 ◼   ► of that. I'm on top of that. Thank you. We have some follow-up. You were very upset about

00:03:58 ◼   ► your Nest thermostat. Very upset is probably pushing it, but it was that, so we had a nice

00:04:03 ◼   ► conversation last week about matter, you taught me lots of things about how matter works,

00:04:07 ◼   ► and then there was matter and antimatter and Starship engines and work cars and all that

00:04:12 ◼   ► kind of stuff. But one of the things that you mentioned is that Google, you know, is

00:04:19 ◼   ► board and the Nest supports this and I thought, well, I have, I think, a second generation

00:04:25 ◼   ► Nest, so maybe I need to get a third generation Nest thermostat. And I went and I looked it

00:04:28 ◼   ► up and I found, ultimately I found a very good interview with the head of Smart Home

00:04:33 ◼   ► Stuff basically at Google on the verge where they asked about the Nest thermostat and they

00:04:38 ◼   ► said, well, the Nest thermostat supports Matter, but we haven't decided whether the Nest Learning

00:04:44 ◼   ► thermostat, which is the nice one that I have, will support it or not. It has a

00:04:49 ◼   ► Thread Radio Edit, they said, but it's more complicated than that. And, you know,

00:04:54 ◼   ► I was a little irate because basically, as I, okay, basically the Nest thermostat,

00:05:01 ◼   ► which I have had a chance to use in a rental over the summer, feels like a

00:05:06 ◼   ► cheap knockoff of a Nest thermostat. The interface is totally different. It's got

00:05:11 ◼   ► like this weird touch sensitive strip on the side and a button that you press on the side

00:05:16 ◼   ► and the whole purpose of that round nest thing was there was a thing you could turn and you

00:05:21 ◼   ► could push and it was like a very tactile kind of thing. And that isn't in the nest

00:05:25 ◼   ► thermostat. It's only in the more expensive nest learning thermostat. Anyway, when asked

00:05:31 ◼   ► and this is so typically Google, when asked, "Well, will your high-end thermostat that

00:05:35 ◼   ► people have put in their homes support this brand new matter standard that you're behind?"

00:05:40 ◼   ► The answer was meh.

00:05:42 ◼   ► It wasn't no, it wasn't yes, it was meh.

00:05:45 ◼   ► So frustrating.

00:05:46 ◼   ► - I still like this, right?

00:05:47 ◼   ► So when you posted it, I was like,

00:05:50 ◼   ► I just went and did some more research as well.

00:05:53 ◼   ► And like, just thought,

00:05:54 ◼   ► let me just go through Google's pages, right?

00:05:56 ◼   ► Like their actual store pages.

00:05:58 ◼   ► And it is so unclear.

00:06:00 ◼   ► Like basically they have committed

00:06:02 ◼   ► that the standard Nest thermostat

00:06:05 ◼   ► is, will be meta support.

00:06:06 ◼   ► It will get meta support.

00:06:07 ◼   ► but the Nest Learning thermostat,

00:06:10 ◼   ► which was not a thing that I knew existed as a name

00:06:14 ◼   ► until this article. - Right, well, they added it

00:06:16 ◼   ► because they made this cheap one,

00:06:17 ◼   ► so they added that in because, see, it's very clever.

00:06:20 ◼   ► They removed all the learning features and stuff,

00:06:22 ◼   ► which I have turned off anyway,

00:06:23 ◼   ► but they removed the learning features

00:06:26 ◼   ► when they cheaped out,

00:06:26 ◼   ► and they didn't wanna call that low-end model

00:06:28 ◼   ► the Nest Cheap Plastic Thermostat.

00:06:30 ◼   ► So what they did is they,

00:06:31 ◼   ► like, let's accentuate the positive.

00:06:33 ◼   ► The features we took out of the cheap one are,

00:06:36 ◼   ► like learning are in the expensive ones

00:06:38 ◼   ► that will add that name.

00:06:39 ◼   ► So the Nest thermostat is now the Nest learning thermostat

00:06:42 ◼   ► because they make the cheap plastic crappy one.

00:06:44 ◼   ► - Yep, and still you can buy this.

00:06:46 ◼   ► So you can buy today the $249 Nest learning thermostat.

00:06:50 ◼   ► And as it stands right now,

00:06:51 ◼   ► there is no expectation that it will support matter.

00:06:56 ◼   ► - Right, it may.

00:06:58 ◼   ► - And it may need a thread bridge or something like that,

00:07:01 ◼   ► which is something we spoke about.

00:07:02 ◼   ► - Well, no, it has a thread radio in it.

00:07:03 ◼   ► I think it's a software thing.

00:07:05 ◼   ► I think they actually are gonna have to,

00:07:06 ◼   ► It's like, can they fit in whatever the little processor is

00:07:08 ◼   ► inside there and how much memory it has?

00:07:10 ◼   ► - I was talking about how Thread won't support Matter

00:07:14 ◼   ► unless there's a bridge in the middle.

00:07:16 ◼   ► They may support it that way, I don't know.

00:07:20 ◼   ► They haven't said one way or another.

00:07:22 ◼   ► - I don't know.

00:07:22 ◼   ► But I think it's really telling

00:07:24 ◼   ► that they've got this premium product

00:07:25 ◼   ► and when asked directly by a member of the media,

00:07:27 ◼   ► what about it, their response was not yes or no,

00:07:30 ◼   ► but really like, "Meh, we don't know."

00:07:33 ◼   ► And it remains so as far as I can tell,

00:07:34 ◼   ► which is very frustrating.

00:07:35 ◼   ► So I know a lot of people who use Apple products

00:07:38 ◼   ► use ecobee thermostats.

00:07:40 ◼   ► Ecobee thermostats are very good.

00:07:42 ◼   ► I don't like how they look.

00:07:44 ◼   ► It turns out though,

00:07:47 ◼   ► while I was looking around digging into this,

00:07:49 ◼   ► it turns out the ecobee makes a new ecobee

00:07:53 ◼   ► that is a high-end model.

00:07:55 ◼   ► And it's got like the metal housing and stuff,

00:07:58 ◼   ► and it's bigger.

00:07:59 ◼   ► It's almost like an Apple watch ultra

00:08:01 ◼   ► for an ecobee thermostat.

00:08:03 ◼   ► So it's got a bigger screen

00:08:04 ◼   ► and it's got metal around it, like stainless steel around it.

00:08:07 ◼   ► So it looks more like a Nest actually.

00:08:10 ◼   ► And honestly, if I decide to give up on Nest,

00:08:13 ◼   ► that's what I'll buy.

00:08:15 ◼   ► And it costs about what the Nest Learning Thermostat costs

00:08:17 ◼   ► by the way.

00:08:18 ◼   ► The problem I have with ecobee is mostly

00:08:20 ◼   ► that I don't like ecobee's interface

00:08:21 ◼   ► because it's a round rect, that's the shape of it,

00:08:25 ◼   ► and it's a touchscreen.

00:08:26 ◼   ► And it's essentially like a little app

00:08:30 ◼   ► that's stuck to your wall.

00:08:32 ◼   ► And the Nest, you know, if I want it to be hotter,

00:08:35 ◼   ► I put my hands on the outside of the ring and I turn it

00:08:38 ◼   ► and then, and the number goes up.

00:08:40 ◼   ► And if I want it to be cooler,

00:08:41 ◼   ► I turn it and the number goes down.

00:08:42 ◼   ► And if I want to do, interact with it, I press it in,

00:08:45 ◼   ► press literally the thermostat in, and it bumps in,

00:08:49 ◼   ► and it gives me a menu and then I go around.

00:08:51 ◼   ► I love that interface.

00:08:53 ◼   ► And I like how it looks on my wall

00:08:55 ◼   ► and I'd like to keep it rather than have to have,

00:08:57 ◼   ► again, like a little mini, you know,

00:09:00 ◼   ► iPad or iPhone app that lives on my wall that I have to go doo doo doo doo doo doo doo and

00:09:04 ◼   ► touch and swipe and all that. I don't want to do that.

00:09:08 ◼   ► This smart thermostat supports Spotify. You can play your music from the thermostat. I

00:09:15 ◼   ► would say that might be too much.

00:09:18 ◼   ► ecobee also supports, it's got support for multiple voice assistants.

00:09:22 ◼   ► That's fine. The voice assistant thing I actually think is quite clever, right?

00:09:25 ◼   ► It's just another, right, well it ends up being another microphone that's listening.

00:09:30 ◼   ► I don't know if I need it to play my Spotify music though.

00:09:33 ◼   ► You know what I mean? - Yeah, right?

00:09:34 ◼   ► On your thermostat? - Yeah.

00:09:36 ◼   ► - Anyway, it's a perfectly nice product

00:09:37 ◼   ► and I might end up buying it,

00:09:39 ◼   ► but I'm glad that they made one that looks nicer

00:09:41 ◼   ► and not as cheap as their other ones do.

00:09:45 ◼   ► But I would really rather that Google actually support

00:09:48 ◼   ► Matter with a Nest.

00:09:49 ◼   ► And so for now, all my enthusiasm about Matter helping me

00:09:53 ◼   ► get my thermostat on HomeKit properly,

00:09:56 ◼   ► I am withdrawing it all

00:09:59 ◼   ► and instead sort of just coming to terms with the fact

00:10:02 ◼   ► that I'm probably gonna have to bridge it for a while

00:10:05 ◼   ► and then ultimately it's unclear what I'll replace it with.

00:10:10 ◼   ► Maybe it'll turn out that somebody builds an amazing nest

00:10:13 ◼   ► to matter thing that runs on a server

00:10:17 ◼   ► and I don't need to ever change it

00:10:19 ◼   ► because the thermostats don't go out of style.

00:10:22 ◼   ► Like it works fine other than what it's talking to.

00:10:25 ◼   ► So we'll see.

00:10:26 ◼   ► But anyway, I just was amazed by Google.

00:10:30 ◼   ► I mean, I don't love that Google made the cheap crappy Nest

00:10:33 ◼   ► and called it a Nest thermostat, but I get it.

00:10:35 ◼   ► They wanted a cheaper, more accessible model.

00:10:38 ◼   ► And while it is having used it now,

00:10:41 ◼   ► I realize how much of a downgrade it is from the good one.

00:10:45 ◼   ► Seriously, when you use a product and you think,

00:10:47 ◼   ► oh, this is the cut rate knockoff non-brand product

00:10:52 ◼   ► that's trying to ape a Nest to trick people.

00:10:56 ◼   ► and then you discovered, no, it's literally the Nest

00:11:00 ◼   ► low-end product.

00:11:01 ◼   ► Like that's a bad sign when you think that this is some

00:11:03 ◼   ► sort of chintzy rip-off and it's actually the low-end

00:11:06 ◼   ► product.

00:11:08 ◼   ► But like also just very disappointed in Google for having

00:11:11 ◼   ► this high-end product that they continue to sell

00:11:13 ◼   ► and yet are super shifty about whether it will ever

00:11:17 ◼   ► talk to the smart home standard that Google is fully

00:11:21 ◼   ► quote unquote, fully behind.

00:11:23 ◼   ► So, okay.

00:11:25 ◼   ► I just wanted to mention to try and alleviate the follow-up.

00:11:29 ◼   ► I think we both know that the Starling Home Hub

00:11:32 ◼   ► as a product exists.

00:11:34 ◼   ► - Yes, people mail that in and that's fine.

00:11:37 ◼   ► I have a Mac Mini running all the time,

00:11:38 ◼   ► so I don't need another piece,

00:11:39 ◼   ► another little tiny computer running as a hub

00:11:41 ◼   ► because I have a Mac Mini and Homebridge.

00:11:44 ◼   ► If you don't, there is a company that has essentially,

00:11:46 ◼   ► and the Starling Home Hub is what it is,

00:11:49 ◼   ► productized Homebridge essentially, or Home Control,

00:11:51 ◼   ► or something like that.

00:11:52 ◼   ► And like they've got a board in there

00:11:54 ◼   ► and they've got the software in there.

00:11:55 ◼   ► And it's essentially a piece of hardware

00:11:58 ◼   ► that acts like one of these software bridges.

00:12:01 ◼   ► But if you've got a Mac mini server

00:12:04 ◼   ► or something like that, like I do,

00:12:05 ◼   ► you can just run Homebridge and do it that way.

00:12:08 ◼   ► - Johnny Ive is going to be an executive producer

00:12:11 ◼   ► on an upcoming Apple TV+ animated movie.

00:12:13 ◼   ► It's coming this Christmas.

00:12:16 ◼   ► It's an adaptation of a book called

00:12:17 ◼   ► "The Boy, The Mole, The Fox and The Horse."

00:12:20 ◼   ► There are a large name, like selection of names

00:12:23 ◼   ► attached to this movie from who's making it to who's producing it to who's executive producing

00:12:27 ◼   ► it. I just thought it was just like a funny little thing to note that Johnny is going

00:12:31 ◼   ► to be an executive producer on an Apple TV+ movie.

00:12:36 ◼   ► Yeah it's a little weird. I wonder what the story is there. Shades of Scott Forstall.

00:12:41 ◼   ► 9 to 5 Mac thinks it's because JJ Abrams and Woody Arleson are involved in this movie and

00:12:48 ◼   ► they are both personal friends of Johnny.

00:12:49 ◼   ► - Ah, so they got Johnny involved in some way.

00:12:53 ◼   ► I have a, since you mentioned 9to5Mac,

00:12:56 ◼   ► I just have a little note for a friend of the show,

00:12:57 ◼   ► Zach Hall.

00:12:58 ◼   ► - Okay.

00:12:59 ◼   ► - Very nice fellow.

00:13:01 ◼   ► This story that we're linking to in our show notes.

00:13:04 ◼   ► - Oh yes.

00:13:05 ◼   ► - Is one of the more confusing stories

00:13:06 ◼   ► I've seen on 9to5Mac.

00:13:08 ◼   ► - I don't think it is,

00:13:08 ◼   ► but me and Steven had this conversation.

00:13:10 ◼   ► - Because, okay, so what it is,

00:13:13 ◼   ► I think what's happening here is that

00:13:15 ◼   ► they have a roundup column that they do

00:13:17 ◼   ► where they dump a whole bunch of small news items in

00:13:20 ◼   ► instead of running them as individual items.

00:13:22 ◼   ► Because this story is two stories.

00:13:24 ◼   ► This page is Johnny Ive's the executive producer of a thing.

00:13:27 ◼   ► And also Ted Lasso has a deal with Bumble

00:13:31 ◼   ► to bring their banter thing from Ted Lasso onto Bumble.

00:13:34 ◼   ► So why is this not two stories?

00:13:38 ◼   ► Why is the story that with Johnny Ive as the lead

00:13:41 ◼   ► have a big Ted Lasso banter thing at the top?

00:13:44 ◼   ► - Because you get- - Why is the headline

00:13:46 ◼   ► starting with banter and following with Johnny Ive when the story sequence is Johnny Ive

00:13:49 ◼   ► and then banter.

00:13:50 ◼   ► Well, okay, so I think, yes, they have a round-up of TV+ content. I think these two things go

00:13:56 ◼   ► together because you get to be able to write the headline "Dating out banter from Ted

00:14:00 ◼   ► Lasso becomes real, Johnny Ive adds Apple TV+ product producer to resume" because that

00:14:06 ◼   ► headline, I clicked it immediately. So I'm like, I thought those two things were related.

00:14:11 ◼   ► They're not.

00:14:12 ◼   ► I think it's interesting from a web publishing standpoint that these could have been two

00:14:15 ◼   ► separate articles with two separate clicks and they're not. And that's fun. That goes

00:14:21 ◼   ► against the way that the modern web works where, you know, they'll discover like, and

00:14:26 ◼   ► again, I'm not trying to pick a nine to five Mac because everybody does this, but like

00:14:29 ◼   ► nine to five Mac will have like, you know, maybe they discover four, three interesting

00:14:36 ◼   ► things about or interesting things about three new Apple products that are rumored. And then

00:14:41 ◼   ► what you end up doing is you're writing three stories about them, right? You're like, Oh,

00:14:44 ◼   ► Apple Watch report says this." And it's like, "Oh, a new iPad report says this." And, "Oh,

00:14:48 ◼   ► new iPhone report says this." It's the same report, you could have rolled it together,

00:14:50 ◼   ► but it's like, "Well, no, we want more stories and more clicks and all of that." I just think

00:14:53 ◼   ► it's funny that in this case they got put together, but I think you're right. I think

00:14:58 ◼   ► that this is a process thing where this is the, we're writing about Apple TV and here

00:15:02 ◼   ► is two stories that are sort of related to Apple TV, so we'll roll them together. I just,

00:15:06 ◼   ► but what you're saying is, if I can stick banter, Ted Lasso and Johnny Ive in one headline,

00:15:12 ◼   ► dating in one headline, boy do that because that's catnip for clicks.

00:15:17 ◼   ► Because I had multiple people send me this who didn't read the article.

00:15:22 ◼   ► And the URL is "Apple TV Johnny Ive dating app."

00:15:25 ◼   ► Exactly.

00:15:26 ◼   ► So I had multiple people send me this article and they were like "Oh!" because they didn't

00:15:29 ◼   ► read it.

00:15:30 ◼   ► Johnny Ive is going to be producing a dating app.

00:15:32 ◼   ► It's amazing!

00:15:33 ◼   ► That Johnny Ive designed a dating app and is now an executive producer of Ted Lasso.

00:15:38 ◼   ► I think this is what people took from it.

00:15:39 ◼   ► If that's the plan, Zach Hall, then I applaud you and 9to5Mac, what a move that is.

00:15:45 ◼   ► I just was puzzled by it because I'm like, "Well, wait a second.

00:15:49 ◼   ► What is this other story that's pasted at the end of the story about this Christmas

00:15:52 ◼   ► thing that… okay, alright."

00:15:54 ◼   ► You got some follow-out for us.

00:15:58 ◼   ► I have a little follow-out.

00:15:59 ◼   ► I mean, there was a little follow-out item in the document and I thought, "That's

00:16:02 ◼   ► interesting.

00:16:03 ◼   ► What's it going to be?"

00:16:04 ◼   ► And then I thought, "Oh, I have some follow-out that I was going to…"

00:16:06 ◼   ► Well, the heading's always there in our document just in case.

00:16:09 ◼   ► - Well, but it pinged a thing in my head.

00:16:11 ◼   ► It was like, oh, I actually do have follow out.

00:16:13 ◼   ► - Okay.

00:16:14 ◼   ► - Last week on the Accidental Tech Podcast, episode 504,

00:16:17 ◼   ► they talked a lot about Mac window management.

00:16:20 ◼   ► Casey got angry.

00:16:21 ◼   ► That's fine.

00:16:23 ◼   ► Was that, yeah, I think that was last week.

00:16:24 ◼   ► Casey got angry 'cause John and Marco

00:16:27 ◼   ► kept adding all the footnotes to the things

00:16:29 ◼   ► when Casey wanted to keep it simple.

00:16:30 ◼   ► It's fine.

00:16:31 ◼   ► I think they actually did a pretty good job

00:16:32 ◼   ► of exposing the ultimate answer to the ultimate question of,

00:16:36 ◼   ► I'm a new Mac user.

00:16:37 ◼   ► What's the right way to manage my windows?

00:16:38 ◼   ► And the answer is there is no right way.

00:16:41 ◼   ► There's about a million different ways

00:16:43 ◼   ► to manage your windows.

00:16:45 ◼   ► Find one that works for you.

00:16:48 ◼   ► The reason that this is follow out,

00:16:49 ◼   ► and I've already expressed this to Casey privately,

00:16:53 ◼   ► but he's heard from a lot of people,

00:16:56 ◼   ► but I just wanted to be on the record here,

00:16:58 ◼   ► is I think it's interesting

00:16:59 ◼   ► 'cause they spent the whole time talking about keyboards

00:17:01 ◼   ► and hot corners and clicking with a mouse.

00:17:03 ◼   ► And what they missed is one of the,

00:17:06 ◼   ► I think most fundamental ways

00:17:08 ◼   ► that a modern Mac interface works.

00:17:10 ◼   ► And the reason it's fundamental is twofold.

00:17:12 ◼   ► One, most Macs sold are laptops.

00:17:15 ◼   ► And two, Apple also sells a very nice desktop Mac

00:17:20 ◼   ► pointing device called the Magic Trackpad.

00:17:23 ◼   ► - There it is.

00:17:24 ◼   ► - And they do the same thing, which is gestures.

00:17:27 ◼   ► - Yep.

00:17:28 ◼   ► - And so when they're talking about,

00:17:30 ◼   ► oh, here's what you do, you hold down F11

00:17:32 ◼   ► and then you drag a thing.

00:17:33 ◼   ► And I'm like, F11?

00:17:35 ◼   ► - What, why?

00:17:37 ◼   ► - And they're like, oh, this is great.

00:17:39 ◼   ► You could get a hotkey that shows the desktop.

00:17:42 ◼   ► And I think, or you can do,

00:17:44 ◼   ► and I had to think about what the gesture is,

00:17:46 ◼   ► but it's basically on a track pad,

00:17:48 ◼   ► you put all your fingers together

00:17:50 ◼   ► and you put it on the track pad and then you flick,

00:17:53 ◼   ► you just open them up and you're like flick.

00:17:55 ◼   ► And what does it do?

00:17:56 ◼   ► It takes every window on your screen and it flicks it out.

00:17:58 ◼   ► It flicks it away to the sides of the screen

00:18:00 ◼   ► so you can see the desktop.

00:18:02 ◼   ► It is a, I would say almost whimsical kind of feature

00:18:05 ◼   ► given how it's paired with the gesture.

00:18:07 ◼   ► And so you just go bloop and there's your desktop

00:18:09 ◼   ► and you bring it back.

00:18:10 ◼   ► And then of course I also use when I've lost a window,

00:18:13 ◼   ► this especially happens with installers.

00:18:15 ◼   ► You have that thing where it's like,

00:18:16 ◼   ► oh, now I have installed an update

00:18:19 ◼   ► and now I need to relaunch and it goes behind a window

00:18:22 ◼   ► and but it's not like a window window.

00:18:24 ◼   ► It's like kind of a half of a window and you can't find it.

00:18:27 ◼   ► - Sometimes it's like now no longer related to the app

00:18:30 ◼   ► so you click the icon, but it doesn't bring up

00:18:32 ◼   ► the relaunch thing or whatever. - It doesn't bring forward.

00:18:35 ◼   ► So if you take three or more, I believe it is,

00:18:39 ◼   ► three or four fingers or five or six or seven,

00:18:41 ◼   ► put all your fingers on there, I don't care,

00:18:43 ◼   ► and you put it on the trackpad and you swipe up,

00:18:46 ◼   ► it does the show me all windows,

00:18:47 ◼   ► and it sort of tiles them and shrinks them,

00:18:49 ◼   ► and then you can click on the one you wanna bring forward,

00:18:52 ◼   ► and it brings it forward, and I use that all the time,

00:18:55 ◼   ► not to mention the standard sort of two finger scrolling

00:18:58 ◼   ► and two finger clicking for an alternate click.

00:19:02 ◼   ► - I constantly doing the trackpad gestures.

00:19:05 ◼   ► Like I'm like swiping up to get like to get to expose,

00:19:09 ◼   ► I'm swiping left and right with the four fingers

00:19:12 ◼   ► to go my spaces. - For spaces?

00:19:13 ◼   ► - Yeah. - Sure.

00:19:14 ◼   ► - I'm all over it.

00:19:15 ◼   ► - Yeah, so I mean, they know already.

00:19:19 ◼   ► Casey was like, "Yeah, yeah, we heard."

00:19:20 ◼   ► But I just wanted to mention here

00:19:22 ◼   ► because I thought it was a really fun conversation

00:19:24 ◼   ► even though Casey just got increasingly angry

00:19:25 ◼   ► because I think it made the point

00:19:27 ◼   ► that those are three different users.

00:19:28 ◼   ► And while they seem to not care so much

00:19:30 ◼   ► about trackpad gestures,

00:19:31 ◼   ► they're three different users

00:19:32 ◼   ► with three different, completely different perspectives

00:19:35 ◼   ► on how to do window management.

00:19:37 ◼   ► And this is gonna become more relevant

00:19:39 ◼   ► when we talk about stage manager

00:19:42 ◼   ► on macOS Ventura when it ships, right?

00:19:44 ◼   ► Because that's yet another way to do this.

00:19:47 ◼   ► Plus there are third parties,

00:19:48 ◼   ► but like even just Apple has all of these different ways.

00:19:53 ◼   ► And the answer is there's no one true way.

00:19:56 ◼   ► it actually is that Apple's trying to give users

00:19:59 ◼   ► a whole lot of choice in order to find a good way for them.

00:20:03 ◼   ► Because some people- - And I encourage that.

00:20:05 ◼   ► - Yes, because the truth is everybody's different.

00:20:09 ◼   ► Everybody has a different preference.

00:20:10 ◼   ► If they said, no, the one true way is full screen mode,

00:20:13 ◼   ► I'd be like, I'm not updating

00:20:16 ◼   ► because I'm never using full screen mode, right?

00:20:18 ◼   ► Or spaces, they're like, spaces are mandatory now.

00:20:21 ◼   ► I was like, no, I mean, that would be stupid,

00:20:23 ◼   ► but like, no, I don't wanna use spaces.

00:20:25 ◼   ► I don't like it, but other people swear by it

00:20:28 ◼   ► and that's fine, right?

00:20:30 ◼   ► Like everybody's different.

00:20:31 ◼   ► I do think that Apple probably should do another,

00:20:35 ◼   ► after they ship stage manager,

00:20:36 ◼   ► they should probably do another like high level,

00:20:38 ◼   ► what are we really trying to get at here?

00:20:40 ◼   ► And I think, honestly, I do think maybe they should consider

00:20:44 ◼   ► some sort of tiling as another thing on top of it,

00:20:47 ◼   ► but the third parties have it pretty well covered.

00:20:49 ◼   ► So anyway, trackpad gestures are great

00:20:52 ◼   ► and they're available on most Macs

00:20:54 ◼   ► because most Macs are laptops with a trackpad.

00:20:57 ◼   ► And if you're somebody who is at a desktop

00:21:00 ◼   ► and doesn't use a trackpad on your desktop,

00:21:02 ◼   ► even though you use a laptop a lot,

00:21:04 ◼   ► I really encourage you to look at the Magic Trackpad

00:21:06 ◼   ► 'cause the beauty of it is all of the muscle memory

00:21:09 ◼   ► that you build up on your laptop

00:21:11 ◼   ► is then there on your desktop.

00:21:13 ◼   ► And that's why I switched and I love it.

00:21:16 ◼   ► - I have both a mouse and a trackpad for all of this.

00:21:20 ◼   ► - I know a lot of people who do that, right?

00:21:21 ◼   ► And you can do the gestures on the trackpad

00:21:23 ◼   ► and you can do some other stuff on the mouse

00:21:25 ◼   ► and that works great too.

00:21:26 ◼   ► So I, yeah, anyway, it was a fun conversation

00:21:30 ◼   ► and it triggered in me all of those thoughts of like,

00:21:33 ◼   ► yeah, Apple really is just sort of like,

00:21:35 ◼   ► has a menu of options for you to choose from

00:21:38 ◼   ► in terms of how you wanna manage your windows.

00:21:41 ◼   ► But those guys, I guess 'cause they maybe don't

00:21:45 ◼   ► use those gestures or are at a desk

00:21:48 ◼   ► and aren't using a magic track pad, but they just,

00:21:50 ◼   ► I couldn't believe as I went through the whole conversation

00:21:52 ◼   ► they didn't mention it.

00:21:53 ◼   ► So there, I mentioned it,

00:21:55 ◼   ► trackpad gestures are the,

00:21:57 ◼   ► like secret sauce,

00:21:59 ◼   ► and they shouldn't be a secret,

00:22:01 ◼   ► 'cause you don't,

00:22:02 ◼   ► there are lots of things for which a hot corner

00:22:04 ◼   ► or holding down F11 is probably not

00:22:07 ◼   ► the best way to get at that feature.

00:22:09 ◼   ► But if, again, if you want to,

00:22:11 ◼   ► if you like it, do it that way.

00:22:13 ◼   ► But I think that gestures are more intuitive.

00:22:17 ◼   ► - But this is why the follow out segment exists,

00:22:19 ◼   ► because why send in follow up for a podcast

00:22:22 ◼   ► when you can just provide it on your own podcast.

00:22:25 ◼   ► - On your own podcast and then the podcasts eat each other

00:22:28 ◼   ► and forming one giant mass of podcasts.

00:22:31 ◼   ► Anyway, that's my feedback.

00:22:33 ◼   ► - And maybe they listen, maybe they don't,

00:22:34 ◼   ► but you know, that's how it works.

00:22:37 ◼   ► - Yep.

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00:24:55 ◼   ► Got a very short room around up, Jason Snell.

00:24:59 ◼   ► You saddle up. - Okay.

00:25:00 ◼   ► - Head on down to the AR/VR town.

00:25:04 ◼   ► There's a new report from the information

00:25:07 ◼   ► with a couple of interesting little details.

00:25:09 ◼   ► Well, they seem to be very on it, the information,

00:25:13 ◼   ► when it comes to the headset.

00:25:15 ◼   ► I feel like more than most places,

00:25:17 ◼   ► this tends to be where we get a lot of information.

00:25:20 ◼   ► We'll find out, no pun intended,

00:25:22 ◼   ► we'll find out how much of it's actually correct

00:25:25 ◼   ► at some point in the future.

00:25:26 ◼   ► But Iris ID is the thing that would be coming

00:25:30 ◼   ► to the AR/VR headset,

00:25:32 ◼   ► which would be a biometric sensor authentication system

00:25:36 ◼   ► for the headset that would allow you to make purchases,

00:25:38 ◼   ► switch users automatically, that kind of thing.

00:25:42 ◼   ► So you would put your headset on,

00:25:43 ◼   ► it would know who was wearing the headset

00:25:45 ◼   ► and then use their profile and all that kind of stuff.

00:25:48 ◼   ► This sensor is the same technology

00:25:52 ◼   ► that allows them to do foveated rendering,

00:25:55 ◼   ► which is a thing where it looks where your eyes are looking

00:25:57 ◼   ► and just renders in that exact location that's needed

00:26:00 ◼   ► rather than needing to render an entire scene

00:26:02 ◼   ► in full resolution.

00:26:03 ◼   ► This is a thing that more and more headsets are doing.

00:26:06 ◼   ► The PlayStation PSVR2 is gonna be using foveated rendering.

00:26:10 ◼   ► it allows you to have less processing needed

00:26:13 ◼   ► at any one time.

00:26:14 ◼   ► So where you're looking is where it's rendering,

00:26:16 ◼   ► which is very clever.

00:26:17 ◼   ► So that they have adopted it for that,

00:26:19 ◼   ► but it can also do this iris scanning basically.

00:26:23 ◼   ► And they're gonna use that instead of face ID

00:26:25 ◼   ► or touch ID for the headset apparently.

00:26:27 ◼   ► - Right, so you put on the headset and it knows who it is

00:26:29 ◼   ► because they recognize your eyes.

00:26:31 ◼   ► It's like Captain Kirk and Star Trek 2.

00:26:33 ◼   ► They like pop, like look at them.

00:26:35 ◼   ► We thought we had jumped past that to face ID,

00:26:38 ◼   ► but it turns out,

00:26:39 ◼   ► - No, I'm not on a headset.

00:26:41 ◼   ► It's actually the best way to do it.

00:26:43 ◼   ► Very interesting, very interesting.

00:26:44 ◼   ► The foveated rendering stuff, I also am amazed by, right?

00:26:47 ◼   ► Because like, imagine the level of detail and speed

00:26:51 ◼   ► and power you have to have to recognize

00:26:54 ◼   ► where the eye is facing and dynamically change what is,

00:26:58 ◼   ► well, it's not even dynamically change what is in focus

00:27:00 ◼   ► based on where the eye is facing.

00:27:02 ◼   ► It really is, the key is the moment that your eye,

00:27:04 ◼   ► and by the way, eyes move real fast,

00:27:08 ◼   ► flick from left to right, that the display updates

00:27:12 ◼   ► with the higher resolution over there immediately.

00:27:16 ◼   ► So you don't have this thing where every time your eyes

00:27:18 ◼   ► flick slightly in one direction or other,

00:27:20 ◼   ► everything gets a little hazy for a moment.

00:27:23 ◼   ► So that's, I mean, vision is weird

00:27:25 ◼   ► and there are lots of tricks you can play on human vision,

00:27:27 ◼   ► but still like when I hear the foveated rendering stuff

00:27:30 ◼   ► described, I am like, I don't disbelieve,

00:27:34 ◼   ► I'm just kind of amazed that we have the ability

00:27:37 ◼   ► to do that, 'cause it's very clever, right?

00:27:39 ◼   ► The idea that your peripheral vision doesn't need to be

00:27:42 ◼   ► so clear because it's your peripheral vision,

00:27:45 ◼   ► but to make that actually work is amazing.

00:27:48 ◼   ► - So there's, the MetaQuest Pro is a product

00:27:52 ◼   ► that exists now, right?

00:27:54 ◼   ► So we're already starting to get--

00:27:55 ◼   ► - Well, sort of.

00:27:56 ◼   ► - Well, I mean, it goes on sale next week.

00:28:00 ◼   ► - Okay.

00:28:01 ◼   ► - So it's very much more real than Apple's headset,

00:28:03 ◼   ► we can say, right?

00:28:04 ◼   ► They've shown it off, and it goes on sale on the 25th.

00:28:07 ◼   ► So maybe not next week, but the 25th is when you can buy.

00:28:09 ◼   ► You can pre-order it now.

00:28:11 ◼   ► A nine to five Mac, I wanted to read this

00:28:13 ◼   ► 'cause I thought it was interesting.

00:28:14 ◼   ► The information report says Apple's headset

00:28:17 ◼   ► will look quite different to the just announced

00:28:19 ◼   ► Method Quest Pro in regards to physical design.

00:28:21 ◼   ► The Quest Pro looks like a plastic visor,

00:28:23 ◼   ► but the Apple headset will supposedly use

00:28:26 ◼   ► mesh fabric, aluminum, and glass,

00:28:28 ◼   ► making for a more premium appearance.

00:28:31 ◼   ► And I thought that was interesting,

00:28:32 ◼   ► but did want to say Apple's headset

00:28:33 ◼   ► is probably gonna cost twice as much

00:28:36 ◼   ► - Yeah, yeah. - So you would hope so.

00:28:39 ◼   ► - Yeah, I am also amused by the more premium appearance

00:28:42 ◼   ► because I have to ask the question,

00:28:43 ◼   ► what is the more premium appearance for?

00:28:46 ◼   ► - Yes.

00:28:47 ◼   ► - Because when you're wearing it,

00:28:48 ◼   ► you don't know what it looks like.

00:28:49 ◼   ► So it's, does it look better?

00:28:51 ◼   ► I mean, premium materials can be nice

00:28:53 ◼   ► because they can feel better.

00:28:54 ◼   ► - Uh-huh. - I totally get that.

00:28:56 ◼   ► But how much of this is really like,

00:28:58 ◼   ► well, we know it's embarrassing to put on a VR headset,

00:29:01 ◼   ► but not our VR headset, it's less embarrassing

00:29:04 ◼   ► because it's made of premium materials and looks nicer on the outside for when people

00:29:09 ◼   ► are looking at you looking dumb wearing a headset.

00:29:13 ◼   ► Don't forget there was the rumor of the screen that's on the front which shows your eyes.

00:29:19 ◼   ► All kinds of impression, facial impression of you. Like that could be sensors. Like before

00:29:24 ◼   ► I wasn't sure about like how that would work, right? Like are they gonna have like a camera

00:29:28 ◼   ► and it actually shows your real eyes? Like maybe they're gonna do that. But the MetaQuest

00:29:33 ◼   ► Pro has sensors in it to detect like your eyebrow movement and stuff like that, like

00:29:38 ◼   ► a facial expression. And apparently from the people that have tried it and tried it out,

00:29:43 ◼   ► this works surprisingly well for the characters that you are in like in world in VR. So maybe

00:29:48 ◼   ► it's just something like that, it's like a cartoon Memoji like thing and it's using sensors

00:29:53 ◼   ► to then represent your personality on the outside. I still don't know if that's necessary

00:29:58 ◼   ► but we'll see.

00:29:59 ◼   ► Yeah, yeah. I mean it's very Apple right? An Apple, Apple, any piece of hardware, Apple

00:30:04 ◼   ► wants it to feel premium and look, look that way and, and if it's, yeah, if it's gonna

00:30:09 ◼   ► cost what it's gonna cost, then it probably should not look like a lump of plastic. But

00:30:13 ◼   ► I just, you know, in the end, what matters with these things at this point is how they

00:30:19 ◼   ► feel way more than how they look when you're wearing them because you're not wearing, you're

00:30:25 ◼   ► not seeing yourself when you wear it. So it doesn't matter.

00:30:28 ◼   ► does not matter because you're always gonna look a little bit ridiculous no matter what

00:30:32 ◼   ► the thing is. Yes. You crystallize my thoughts perfectly. Yes, exactly. Well, we're heating

00:30:38 ◼   ► up. This world is heating up. Or you could be like James Thompson who just posted a thing

00:30:44 ◼   ► in our chat room where somebody just put googly eyes on the front of an Oculus Quest 2. I'm

00:30:47 ◼   ► assuming it was him that did that. I don't know. These are James's. It doesn't really

00:30:53 ◼   ► matter does it? It's a good one. Just do that. Just do it. Maybe that is what they're gonna

00:30:57 ◼   ► Done. That's cheaper. It's a lot cheaper. Not really premium materials. We used, for

00:31:02 ◼   ► our googly eyes, we used quartz crystal.

00:31:06 ◼   ► Chamfered googlies.

00:31:08 ◼   ► And inside is a surgically, surgical quality stainless steel disc with chamfered edges.

00:31:15 ◼   ► The Apple googly eyes, they're coming. Watch out.

00:31:19 ◼   ► You got some AirPods Pro 2.

00:31:22 ◼   ► I did. I heard you, this is follow out essentially away from Connected last week, where you talked

00:31:29 ◼   ► about your AirPods Pro 2, and I wanted to talk about it with you here. So, I mean, I

00:31:34 ◼   ► don't have a lot to say, but I wanted to say that they sound great, they really do, and

00:31:38 ◼   ► I used my AirPods Pro originals a lot. As somebody who didn't believe in Apple's earbuds

00:31:45 ◼   ► at all. The noise cancelling and the lightness of it led me down the path. These are, they

00:31:55 ◼   ► sound great, the pass-through sounds good, although I am, again, how do you prove that,

00:32:03 ◼   ► you know, like, oh yeah, that sound should have been louder and it wasn't. It's very

00:32:07 ◼   ► hard to prove that.

00:32:08 ◼   ► Yeah, I'm still not convinced about that myself, like, I'll be honest.

00:32:11 ◼   ► I need to go stand next to a jackhammer and see what happens. Gotta find something under

00:32:15 ◼   ► construction. I still yet to experience it especially because I know I

00:32:19 ◼   ► experienced this happening before like a siren would go by like a police car or

00:32:25 ◼   ► something and it would adjust the transparency so I still am not sure about this. It'd just be faster and better.

00:32:31 ◼   ► But overall the the actual noise cancelling experience is really good

00:32:35 ◼   ► like I don't they sound better I think they do but I'm not entirely convinced

00:32:40 ◼   ► when people say oh yeah they sound better and I'm noticing more bass

00:32:43 ◼   ► response and all that. I'm not entirely convinced that it isn't because they're coming from

00:32:46 ◼   ► an old pair of AirPods Pro that have some earwax in them and stuff.

00:32:52 ◼   ► I think that these things wear out over time, like I really do. I think they just get less

00:32:56 ◼   ► powerful over time. It's not a clean comparison if you've got

00:32:59 ◼   ► an old worn out pair and then a brand new pair, because of course they're going to feel

00:33:04 ◼   ► nicer because they're new and they're going to sound better. Anyway, but they do sound

00:33:08 ◼   ► great and the noise canceling is definitely superior.

00:33:13 ◼   ► I'm very impressed by that.

00:33:15 ◼   ► And how much of that is the technology

00:33:20 ◼   ► and how much of that is the seal is a question for me

00:33:25 ◼   ► because I think that there's a limit

00:33:27 ◼   ► to what Apple can do with noise canceling

00:33:29 ◼   ► because of the seal, right?

00:33:32 ◼   ► Because if you're letting in sound from the outside

00:33:35 ◼   ► through the gap in your headphones,

00:33:39 ◼   ► it's hard for Apple to counteract that.

00:33:40 ◼   ► Not that they don't try, right?

00:33:42 ◼   ► They've got the little microphones on the inside

00:33:44 ◼   ► that are trying to get the sound that's coming

00:33:46 ◼   ► into your ear canal and cancel it,

00:33:49 ◼   ► but there's only so much they can do.

00:33:51 ◼   ► And so, you know, what I'm really saying is

00:33:52 ◼   ► when I'm writing in the backyard and the kids next door

00:33:54 ◼   ► are jumping up and down on the trampoline,

00:33:56 ◼   ► I can still hear them, but they're pretty quiet

00:33:58 ◼   ► and I don't have to, you know,

00:33:59 ◼   ► but the, when the person is redoing their roof, you know,

00:34:03 ◼   ► five houses down and there's a big machine running out there.

00:34:07 ◼   ► I can't, you know, I can't hear that, which is pretty great.

00:34:11 ◼   ► So yeah, I, so I love them.

00:34:13 ◼   ► And I know we did an upgrade ease about this a few years ago

00:34:16 ◼   ► when the AirPods Pro came out, but like AirPods alone,

00:34:19 ◼   ► but AirPods Pro especially, this is one of like,

00:34:24 ◼   ► everybody talks about, oh, what's the next iPhone

00:34:26 ◼   ► and Apple doesn't make great products anymore.

00:34:27 ◼   ► And you know, where's the next great, brilliant idea.

00:34:31 ◼   ► and people poo-poo the Apple Watch, which I like,

00:34:33 ◼   ► but AirPods and AirPods Pro,

00:34:36 ◼   ► this is a great product and super influential, right?

00:34:42 ◼   ► Because while there were some products

00:34:44 ◼   ► that did sort of some of this beforehand,

00:34:47 ◼   ► when Apple went down this path,

00:34:49 ◼   ► every other technology company was like,

00:34:51 ◼   ► "They got it, that's it, let's do that."

00:34:53 ◼   ► And I'm not saying that in a negative way,

00:34:55 ◼   ► because people are like, "Oh, they copied it."

00:34:59 ◼   ► It's like, okay, whatever.

00:35:00 ◼   ► I do think there comes a moment in technology,

00:35:02 ◼   ► like the moment when Samsung started selling

00:35:05 ◼   ► a lot of very big screened phones,

00:35:07 ◼   ► where everybody else goes, "Oh, that, that's the answer."

00:35:11 ◼   ► Somebody found the answer, that's the answer.

00:35:15 ◼   ► And AirPods Pro is like that.

00:35:17 ◼   ► It's like Apple did it and everybody else went,

00:35:19 ◼   ► "Oh yeah, okay, let's do that."

00:35:21 ◼   ► Because it's that good.

00:35:23 ◼   ► I love them.

00:35:24 ◼   ► It is one of the best products Apple has made.

00:35:26 ◼   ► And this is just better of the same one.

00:35:30 ◼   ► So thumbs up from me.

00:35:32 ◼   ► - This might not be an original take,

00:35:34 ◼   ► but it's a thought that I just had.

00:35:37 ◼   ► Basically AirPods, the whole AirPods line,

00:35:40 ◼   ► it is the modern iPod for Apple.

00:35:43 ◼   ► - Yeah, that's it. - Right, that they have

00:35:44 ◼   ► a product that they put out that was successful,

00:35:48 ◼   ► and then they made a bunch of them in different types,

00:35:50 ◼   ► different configurations, and people love them.

00:35:54 ◼   ► They're everywhere.

00:35:56 ◼   ► Obviously, the easy comparison is the white earbuds

00:36:00 ◼   ► is the same, right?

00:36:00 ◼   ► Like they were white earbuds then, it's white earbuds now.

00:36:04 ◼   ► And similarly, it proved that there was a market for this.

00:36:08 ◼   ► And then a bunch of other companies went and made products

00:36:11 ◼   ► that are similar or better in some ways, worse in others,

00:36:15 ◼   ► depending on what you care about.

00:36:17 ◼   ► And of course it's music related.

00:36:19 ◼   ► - Yeah, I was gonna say,

00:36:20 ◼   ► I think that you're onto something there

00:36:22 ◼   ► and that the truth of it is,

00:36:25 ◼   ► remember when they made that iPod shuffle

00:36:27 ◼   ► that didn't have any interface on it.

00:36:28 ◼   ► And it's like, well, no, the headphones at the interface.

00:36:30 ◼   ► Like, well, in a world where every device

00:36:33 ◼   ► can be a Bluetooth internet connected

00:36:36 ◼   ► or preloaded with music audio player,

00:36:39 ◼   ► you don't need an iPod anymore.

00:36:41 ◼   ► - No.

00:36:41 ◼   ► - But you still have ears, right?

00:36:43 ◼   ► You still need the other part of it.

00:36:44 ◼   ► So in many ways, the AirPods literally are

00:36:46 ◼   ► all that's left of the iPod,

00:36:49 ◼   ► which is the part you stick in your ears,

00:36:50 ◼   ► because I walk around frequently with,

00:36:54 ◼   ► here at the house, I have like at least four devices

00:36:58 ◼   ► that I use every day that all can play right

00:37:02 ◼   ► into the AirPods, right?

00:37:03 ◼   ► And I get to choose.

00:37:04 ◼   ► And when I go for a run and just bring my watch,

00:37:06 ◼   ► I bring the AirPods and there they are.

00:37:08 ◼   ► So from my, actually my Apple TV too,

00:37:12 ◼   ► I've done that when I've had,

00:37:14 ◼   ► there was somebody working outside with a loud machine

00:37:17 ◼   ► and I was trying to eat my lunch and watch TV.

00:37:20 ◼   ► And I put in my AirPod Pros and set it as the output

00:37:26 ◼   ► from my Apple TV and used it that way.

00:37:29 ◼   ► So yeah, it's just, it's a really smart product

00:37:32 ◼   ► and I'm glad it exists and the new one is better.

00:37:36 ◼   ► And I'm interested to see what they'll do in the future.

00:37:40 ◼   ► We talked a while ago about Apple Watch

00:37:43 ◼   ► and the challenge with the Apple Watch temperature sensor

00:37:45 ◼   ► on the wrist and the medical issues with it.

00:37:47 ◼   ► And like when you get a fever,

00:37:49 ◼   ► it's more on the inside of your body and your chest

00:37:52 ◼   ► and not so much your extremities, which can get cooler.

00:37:55 ◼   ► and there's a lot of complication there.

00:37:57 ◼   ► And I thought about in the context

00:37:59 ◼   ► why Apple is rumored to be investigating things

00:38:02 ◼   ► like temperature and other health sensors in AirPods,

00:38:05 ◼   ► which seems so weird except the AirPods are in your ears.

00:38:09 ◼   ► It's a better place for sensing things.

00:38:13 ◼   ► - And it's also a second data point, right, as well,

00:38:16 ◼   ► which might continually assist and maybe they just,

00:38:19 ◼   ► really it's like, oh, your AirPods

00:38:21 ◼   ► can talk to your Apple Watch.

00:38:23 ◼   ► and like, which goes together with the way

00:38:25 ◼   ► that they introduced that September keynote, right?

00:38:28 ◼   ► Of like these three products are actually like,

00:38:32 ◼   ► it's one ecosystem.

00:38:34 ◼   ► Yeah, interesting.

00:38:35 ◼   ► That's a really good point.

00:38:37 ◼   ► - On top of that, I'll say, and this is a wild idea,

00:38:40 ◼   ► but I'm gonna throw it out there.

00:38:41 ◼   ► This is one of those infinite timescale ideas,

00:38:43 ◼   ► but I know we've talked a lot about how Apple's first AR

00:38:45 ◼   ► product is the AirPods, right?

00:38:47 ◼   ► Because they do the transparency mode,

00:38:49 ◼   ► so you're listening to reality,

00:38:50 ◼   ► but something is overlaid over it,

00:38:52 ◼   ► and Apple's technology is mediating it.

00:38:54 ◼   ► You know, there's a scenario where Apple and other

00:38:59 ◼   ► and its competitors are creating these things

00:39:01 ◼   ► that are increasingly small and increasingly smart.

00:39:05 ◼   ► And there's a point where Apple might say,

00:39:08 ◼   ► just, we talk about it for glasses, right?

00:39:11 ◼   ► But it's, I feel like we're gonna get there sooner

00:39:14 ◼   ► with AirPods where they say, just leave them in.

00:39:17 ◼   ► And if they can come up with a benefit,

00:39:20 ◼   ► and we talked about like hearing aids and things like that.

00:39:23 ◼   ► If you talk about spoken announcements

00:39:27 ◼   ► and voice assistant and volume,

00:39:30 ◼   ► I'm not saying people are gonna wanna wear AirPods all day,

00:39:32 ◼   ► nor will the battery last that long.

00:39:34 ◼   ► But if you try to just sort of like extrapolate

00:39:37 ◼   ► and expand it, if you can't feel them, they last all day

00:39:42 ◼   ► and they provide you with a layer of information

00:39:45 ◼   ► on top of being able to hear everything in your world

00:39:48 ◼   ► crystal clear, at that point you would just leave them in all day. So it's an

00:39:53 ◼   ► interesting thing to think about that that in many ways AirPods are so much

00:39:56 ◼   ► further along that path than the rumored and not yet even introduced first

00:40:01 ◼   ► generation AR thing from Apple. But they're already there with the AirPods

00:40:06 ◼   ► so sky's the limit. I'm not sure I want AirPods in my ears all day long. I'm not

00:40:10 ◼   ► saying that but I'm saying... I mean I have mine in for a long time even when I'm

00:40:14 ◼   ► not listening to music. Like if I listen to something I just leave them in. I

00:40:17 ◼   ► I don't even think about it.

00:40:18 ◼   ► Like it's not even a conscious decision.

00:40:20 ◼   ► - Yeah, well that's going down the path, right?

00:40:22 ◼   ► - Yeah. - Yeah.

00:40:23 ◼   ► - So yeah, give me, and then if I've done it,

00:40:25 ◼   ► give me a reason.

00:40:26 ◼   ► - Especially if they're smart enough to filter out

00:40:29 ◼   ► the sounds you don't wanna hear,

00:40:30 ◼   ► but filter, but play through the sounds you do wanna hear,

00:40:33 ◼   ► which is sort of where they're going with that.

00:40:35 ◼   ► Like, so that you're not wandering around

00:40:38 ◼   ► in a noise canceled daze,

00:40:40 ◼   ► but it is modulating what you hear.

00:40:43 ◼   ► that's also very interesting for people,

00:40:47 ◼   ► and not just for people who need hearing aids,

00:40:49 ◼   ► but for everybody.

00:40:51 ◼   ► So I don't know, it's fascinating.

00:40:52 ◼   ► So anyway, those are my AirPods 2 Thoughts,

00:40:55 ◼   ► AirPods Pro 2 Thoughts.

00:40:56 ◼   ► Thank you for listening and for inspiring it

00:41:00 ◼   ► by you talking about how much you like them.

00:41:03 ◼   ► - I have some real-time follow-up.

00:41:05 ◼   ► - Okay.

00:41:05 ◼   ► - From Zach Hall of 9to5Mac.

00:41:07 ◼   ► My process starts with how can I make sure

00:41:10 ◼   ► this is an upgrade topic in reference

00:41:12 ◼   ► to the article about Johnny Ibe and the dating app.

00:41:16 ◼   ► Then there are these two TV+ tidbits

00:41:18 ◼   ► worthy of their own stories.

00:41:20 ◼   ► I didn't think so for 9to5Max format.

00:41:22 ◼   ► In retrospect, I would do two stories

00:41:24 ◼   ► if only for the sake of my mentions.

00:41:26 ◼   ► (laughing)

00:41:29 ◼   ► Sorry, Zach.

00:41:31 ◼   ► So there you go, Zach learned a valuable lesson.

00:41:33 ◼   ► - Now friend question mark of the show, Zach Hall.

00:41:36 ◼   ► (laughing)

00:41:38 ◼   ► I think it's interesting.

00:41:38 ◼   ► I mean, sorry, it's journalism inspired baseball,

00:41:40 ◼   ► but I was just sort of fascinated by it

00:41:42 ◼   ► that it was two things.

00:41:43 ◼   ► And I thought it was a process thing, right?

00:41:45 ◼   ► Like it was like, I've got two,

00:41:46 ◼   ► I've got two not particularly exciting tidbits

00:41:48 ◼   ► about Apple TV related stuff.

00:41:50 ◼   ► Let me roll them together.

00:41:51 ◼   ► I get it.

00:41:52 ◼   ► - So good.

00:41:53 ◼   ► Poor Zach.

00:41:56 ◼   ► 'Cause I think nine to five Mac tweets out

00:41:58 ◼   ► with the writers handle as well.

00:42:01 ◼   ► And so every reply to that tweet

00:42:03 ◼   ► would have also gone to Zach, I guess.

00:42:06 ◼   ► Ooh, sometimes we make these decisions

00:42:08 ◼   ► and they accidentally ruin our day.

00:42:10 ◼   ► There's just nothing you can do about it.

00:42:12 ◼   ► This episode of Upgrade is brought to you by CleanMyMac X. You want to make sure that

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00:44:20 ◼   ► So we are recording on Monday the 17th.

00:44:25 ◼   ► We are hurtling towards the end of October.

00:44:30 ◼   ► There were reports last week from Mark Gurman that iOS 16.1 is expected in the final fall

00:44:42 ◼   ► week of October, which is next week.

00:44:46 ◼   ► And Mark has also mentioned that previously in October, Apple has announced products during

00:44:52 ◼   ► their earnings call week, which is also next week.

00:44:58 ◼   ► So there is a possibility that sometime between now and the end of next week, there could

00:45:04 ◼   ► be an announcement of an event, there could be products added to the store, there could

00:45:09 ◼   ► be press releases, there could be press previews and briefings, we don't know.

00:45:15 ◼   ► But we want to think about what they could be, maybe kind of get that out there.

00:45:19 ◼   ► Because I think at this point, we're expecting we won't be drafting in October, right?

00:45:23 ◼   ► - I think probably not.

00:45:25 ◼   ► Like unless Apple, I think there's a possibility

00:45:30 ◼   ► that Apple would do something where they would say,

00:45:32 ◼   ► let's say tomorrow, you know, tune in next Tuesday

00:45:36 ◼   ► for a special video presentation.

00:45:38 ◼   ► I still think that's a possibility,

00:45:40 ◼   ► but it's just as likely that this is gonna be more

00:45:42 ◼   ► like those sort of what I call

00:45:44 ◼   ► the third tier product launches,

00:45:46 ◼   ► which is they just do briefings and a press release.

00:45:49 ◼   ► and it's not a big event beyond that.

00:45:53 ◼   ► And that depends on how big they feel it is.

00:45:56 ◼   ► - And so this seems too complicated to draft.

00:46:00 ◼   ► And we may still draft,

00:46:01 ◼   ► like if they announce an event tomorrow,

00:46:03 ◼   ► like we'll do a draft, right?

00:46:04 ◼   ► Like we will do one if there's gonna be a video event.

00:46:07 ◼   ► But in case that there isn't,

00:46:09 ◼   ► we wanted to at least kind of get out there

00:46:11 ◼   ► what we're thinking about in regards to what Apple

00:46:15 ◼   ► might be having for this month.

00:46:18 ◼   ► - Right, so where should we start, iPads?

00:46:23 ◼   ► - Let's start with iPad.

00:46:24 ◼   ► - Okay, so iPad OS has still, 16 has still not shipped.

00:46:28 ◼   ► Right, they pushed it to 16.1.

00:46:32 ◼   ► They took stage manager off the external displays.

00:46:34 ◼   ► They're doing bug fixes with external displays

00:46:37 ◼   ► or with the internal display

00:46:40 ◼   ► and they expanded the compatibility to older iPad Pros.

00:46:43 ◼   ► So that's all laying out there.

00:46:45 ◼   ► I assume that they're going to ship that

00:46:47 ◼   ► like Mark said, at the end of, sometime next week.

00:46:52 ◼   ► And presumably there is some pressure to ship that

00:46:56 ◼   ► because there's hardware that needs to ship with it, right?

00:47:00 ◼   ► And so that would mean that presumably

00:47:02 ◼   ► sometime this week or next,

00:47:04 ◼   ► they're gonna do a product announcement involving iPads

00:47:08 ◼   ► that will ship next week, maybe?

00:47:12 ◼   ► Right after iPadOS presumably would ship earlier in the week.

00:47:17 ◼   ► I mean, that's their pattern, right?

00:47:18 ◼   ► It's like the OS ships Tuesday or Wednesday,

00:47:20 ◼   ► Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday,

00:47:22 ◼   ► and then Friday the products come out, right?

00:47:27 ◼   ► - Yeah, that would make sense, right?

00:47:29 ◼   ► 'Cause they tend to have the OS available

00:47:32 ◼   ► before the hardware, so it's already in there, right?

00:47:35 ◼   ► Like the support is already in there.

00:47:38 ◼   ► And yeah, it follows all of the,

00:47:40 ◼   ► I mean, I just genuinely, I just, you know,

00:47:43 ◼   ► being very close to Federico, right?

00:47:46 ◼   ► I just kind of can't believe that 16.1 is coming out.

00:47:49 ◼   ► Like I just, I can't get my head around it.

00:47:52 ◼   ► Like maybe there's another shoe to drop,

00:47:54 ◼   ► but like,

00:47:54 ◼   ► iPad OS 16.1 is very complicated

00:47:59 ◼   ► and the main feature is very messy.

00:48:02 ◼   ► - Yeah, it's messy.

00:48:03 ◼   ► Although, Federico has had some bad luck with it.

00:48:05 ◼   ► I think that it's more usable in certain circumstances,

00:48:07 ◼   ► but he's right.

00:48:08 ◼   ► I mean, it's got lots of problems.

00:48:10 ◼   ► I think what makes me think it doesn't matter

00:48:13 ◼   ► is that it's a mode that is off by default

00:48:16 ◼   ► that you have to turn on.

00:48:17 ◼   ► And I don't know what the current state of the little thing

00:48:20 ◼   ► that says, "Hey, introducing stage manager,

00:48:22 ◼   ► you could turn this on is."

00:48:24 ◼   ► But it would seem to me that would be a fairly easy switch

00:48:27 ◼   ► to flip off so that you don't ever tell anyone

00:48:30 ◼   ► stage manager is there,

00:48:32 ◼   ► and they would have to stumble upon it.

00:48:33 ◼   ► - It's like the two people with the keys

00:48:36 ◼   ► and they have to each turn them at the same time,

00:48:38 ◼   ► you know, and then you can launch stage manager.

00:48:39 ◼   ► - Exactly, and then you launch stage manager, yeah.

00:48:42 ◼   ► So, and you could turn it off if you don't like it.

00:48:45 ◼   ► if it breaks, you just turn it off, right?

00:48:46 ◼   ► So I think that you could, it's not great.

00:48:49 ◼   ► Don't get me wrong.

00:48:50 ◼   ► It's not great to ship a feature

00:48:51 ◼   ► that kind of doesn't work as planned

00:48:54 ◼   ► and tell people, "Well, just turn it off."

00:48:56 ◼   ► And we're working on it, but that may be where they are now.

00:48:59 ◼   ► - But 16.1 iOS has to come out soon

00:49:03 ◼   ► because of live activities, right?

00:49:04 ◼   ► Like you've got to get that out there

00:49:06 ◼   ► because that is a big part of the iPhone experience.

00:49:09 ◼   ► - iCloud shared photos.

00:49:11 ◼   ► iCloud shared photos too, right?

00:49:13 ◼   ► I assume that that feature is gonna ship.

00:49:16 ◼   ► I actually just, in the latest beta,

00:49:18 ◼   ► I noticed that all of my items

00:49:20 ◼   ► that I had moved into a shared folder

00:49:22 ◼   ► or shared library moved back into my library.

00:49:24 ◼   ► Which I think is they hit a,

00:49:28 ◼   ► I think they're preparing to ship it.

00:49:29 ◼   ► And so they hit a reset on everybody from the beta.

00:49:32 ◼   ► - So they're like, "Uh-uh, I don't think so."

00:49:35 ◼   ► - Thank you beta testers, back in your libraries.

00:49:38 ◼   ► Back, go back.

00:49:39 ◼   ► So, which is pretty funny, but like I kind of get it, right?

00:49:43 ◼   ► Like they're like, no, no, no, now that the beta test is over,

00:49:45 ◼   ► we're gonna push everything back and you can do it again,

00:49:47 ◼   ► which I did.

00:49:48 ◼   ► - Because for all we know, right?

00:49:49 ◼   ► One of the reasons it may have gotten delayed

00:49:51 ◼   ► was like they worked out that there was maybe some kind of

00:49:53 ◼   ► bug or an issue and they just wanted to make sure

00:49:55 ◼   ► they cleaned out anything before they like did the final,

00:49:58 ◼   ► like, all right, now we get to go.

00:50:00 ◼   ► - But, but so based on that, I'm inclined to believe

00:50:04 ◼   ► that they are gonna ship that.

00:50:06 ◼   ► And they haven't said later this year with that.

00:50:07 ◼   ► I feel like this 16.1 update and Ventura

00:50:10 ◼   ► are all gonna come out simultaneously.

00:50:12 ◼   ► and they're all gonna have the shared library too.

00:50:14 ◼   ► So they do need to get it out there.

00:50:15 ◼   ► And leaving aside,

00:50:16 ◼   ► the hardware is probably calibrated as well, right?

00:50:19 ◼   ► If there are new Macs,

00:50:20 ◼   ► they're probably meant to only run on Ventura.

00:50:22 ◼   ► And if there are new iPads,

00:50:23 ◼   ► they're probably only meant to run on 16.1 and later.

00:50:27 ◼   ► And therefore they need to ship the OSs

00:50:30 ◼   ► because they've got hardware that is presumably holding

00:50:33 ◼   ► for the shipment.

00:50:34 ◼   ► So that's where we are.

00:50:36 ◼   ► In terms of iPad devices, right?

00:50:38 ◼   ► Like the rumors are iPad Pro refresh

00:50:41 ◼   ► and the base level iPad.

00:50:45 ◼   ► And the iPad Pro refresh might not be that exciting, right?

00:50:48 ◼   ► It's like from M1 to M2.

00:50:50 ◼   ► There was a report today that over the weekend, Ross Youngs,

00:50:57 ◼   ► the display analyst said that the 11 inch iPad Pro

00:51:01 ◼   ► was not gonna get the mini LED illumination

00:51:04 ◼   ► and was gonna keep its old screen.

00:51:06 ◼   ► - Oh my God, are you being serious?

00:51:08 ◼   ► - I am absolutely 100% serious.

00:51:10 ◼   ► - That is ridiculous.

00:51:13 ◼   ► - Sorry to have broken it here.

00:51:15 ◼   ► I should have put that in the show notes, yeah.

00:51:17 ◼   ► - Wow, I didn't see this.

00:51:18 ◼   ► That's, I can't believe that.

00:51:20 ◼   ► That seemed like a lock in to me.

00:51:24 ◼   ► Like that you would, it's been ages now.

00:51:27 ◼   ► That's wild, that is really wild

00:51:29 ◼   ► that they haven't worked that out

00:51:31 ◼   ► or they're not gonna do that.

00:51:32 ◼   ► I'm very surprised about that.

00:51:33 ◼   ► - Yeah, well if that's true, that's not great.

00:51:40 ◼   ► because that was the one thing I think that a lot of people

00:51:42 ◼   ► like you were holding onto was like,

00:51:44 ◼   ► finally the smaller one is gonna get that feature

00:51:47 ◼   ► and that display and that would be a reason to update.

00:51:49 ◼   ► And so if not, I mean, first question that I have for you is

00:51:52 ◼   ► what's enabled in new iPad Pros other than like,

00:51:59 ◼   ► okay, if they come out and it's literally the same displays

00:52:02 ◼   ► as last time and it's an M2, what else is there?

00:52:06 ◼   ► There's rumors of charging differences

00:52:09 ◼   ► and magnetic charging, that was a rumor.

00:52:12 ◼   ► - Mm-hmm, some kind of mag safe.

00:52:14 ◼   ► - Like, is there a, Federico last week,

00:52:17 ◼   ► I know when connected was talking about,

00:52:19 ◼   ► you know, it's been a while since Apple Pencil 2,

00:52:21 ◼   ► would there be an Apple Pencil 3?

00:52:23 ◼   ► I mean, that's more of an accessory related thing,

00:52:25 ◼   ► but we could leave that aside for a minute,

00:52:27 ◼   ► 'cause there are accessory questions with the iPad,

00:52:29 ◼   ► there always are.

00:52:30 ◼   ► The iPad is as much an accessory platform

00:52:34 ◼   ► as it is a computing device, right?

00:52:35 ◼   ► Like the iPad is it and its accessories,

00:52:39 ◼   ► and how you choose to build them up.

00:52:40 ◼   ► But like, can you think, like, what do they say

00:52:44 ◼   ► in terms of an M2 iPad Pro?

00:52:47 ◼   ► Like, what more is enabled with that?

00:52:51 ◼   ► - I don't really think anything.

00:52:52 ◼   ► I think this is probably going to be as boring an update

00:52:57 ◼   ► as the 2020 update.

00:52:59 ◼   ► - Right.

00:53:00 ◼   ► Well, and so that's the answer.

00:53:02 ◼   ► That's one reason why it's not an event

00:53:04 ◼   ► is that it is a spec bump

00:53:05 ◼   ► and they're just getting it on the latest processors

00:53:08 ◼   ► and that's it. And that maybe they add MagSafe, right, in some form. Right, which is, which is,

00:53:16 ◼   ► do you have a prediction about what that might look like? I mean, my initial thought is that it

00:53:21 ◼   ► would be more like the Mac, right, but now there is a rumor that Apple is potentially looking at

00:53:28 ◼   ► adding a functionality like the new, the Pixel tablet, where you can like mount it to a little

00:53:36 ◼   ► stand and it becomes like a part of your like it's basically like a home part of

00:53:41 ◼   ► a screen yeah and if then it would make sense that the iPad would have a magnet

00:53:46 ◼   ► in the back right so I think having it be MagSafe would be great although it's

00:53:51 ◼   ► pretty thin however there's the keyboard issue right and I started to think about

00:53:56 ◼   ► like if you've got a magnetic charger thingy and it's on the side do you have

00:54:02 ◼   ► to build your keyboard, like if you want the keyboard

00:54:05 ◼   ► to have power and have that port on the side still,

00:54:09 ◼   ► like that you can plug in for power,

00:54:11 ◼   ► you would need, like you still have to have

00:54:15 ◼   ► the magnetic connection on the back.

00:54:17 ◼   ► And I started to think about it and I'm like,

00:54:19 ◼   ► are they gonna do that?

00:54:19 ◼   ► Are they gonna add a thing on the side

00:54:21 ◼   ► and still have the smart connector on the back?

00:54:23 ◼   ► Is that a thing they're gonna do?

00:54:25 ◼   ► And it makes me more inclined to believe

00:54:27 ◼   ► that what they're gonna do is upgrade the smart connector

00:54:31 ◼   ► to be MagSafe compatible,

00:54:35 ◼   ► but still also be a smart connector.

00:54:37 ◼   ► - Which MagSafe?

00:54:38 ◼   ► - Well, which MagSafe?

00:54:42 ◼   ► iPhone MagSafe, I'm assuming at that point,

00:54:45 ◼   ► but it's weird, right?

00:54:47 ◼   ► 'Cause ergonomically iPhone MagSafe on an iPad is like,

00:54:50 ◼   ► that's not great.

00:54:53 ◼   ► And does that require them to redesign the Magic Keyboard?

00:55:00 ◼   ► Well, I mean, this is the question of accessories.

00:55:04 ◼   ► Will they actually just redesign the Magic Keyboard?

00:55:07 ◼   ► - Right. - Right?

00:55:08 ◼   ► Will they do that?

00:55:09 ◼   ► Maybe.

00:55:10 ◼   ► - And that's what sets M2 iPad Pro apart,

00:55:13 ◼   ► is really it uses the fancy new Magic Keyboard

00:55:15 ◼   ► that has a function row and different whatever

00:55:19 ◼   ► (laughs)

00:55:20 ◼   ► that allows it to be more spooky, right?

00:55:23 ◼   ► - And that would make it enough for an update, right?

00:55:25 ◼   ► Because as Zach has pointed out in Discord,

00:55:27 ◼   ► which is a great point, it's like,

00:55:29 ◼   ► The iPad Pro hardware is great, there isn't really much that you realistically need to

00:55:33 ◼   ► do to it to make an update.

00:55:36 ◼   ► I think the 11 inch will just be an even more of a sad product I think if it doesn't get

00:55:42 ◼   ► the new.

00:55:43 ◼   ► I used to say the 11 inch iPad Pro was like the best iPad you could buy and now it's getting

00:55:49 ◼   ► hard for me to say I really like the iPad Air maybe is that now.

00:55:52 ◼   ► Except for the, depending on what they announce, except for the price to storage is not good.

00:55:58 ◼   ► on the iPad Air, like the base storage is really low,

00:56:02 ◼   ► but the 11 inch is just so great.

00:56:05 ◼   ► And it would be even better if they gave it

00:56:06 ◼   ► the new cool screen too, but yeah.

00:56:10 ◼   ► - I'm not saying that this will happen,

00:56:12 ◼   ► but I have a little bit,

00:56:16 ◼   ► hearing you talk about the 11 inch,

00:56:17 ◼   ► just I put a little chill in my heart

00:56:20 ◼   ► because we've been saying for a while now

00:56:23 ◼   ► that the iPad Air is really infringes

00:56:26 ◼   ► on a lot of the iPad Pro 11 inch space.

00:56:31 ◼   ► Not completely, like it doesn't have ProMotion.

00:56:33 ◼   ► There's things it doesn't have, but it's real close.

00:56:36 ◼   ► And there's also that rumor floating out there,

00:56:40 ◼   ► not probably for this event,

00:56:41 ◼   ► but that there may be a larger iPad coming.

00:56:45 ◼   ► A 15 inch, let's say iPad Pro or iPad Studio,

00:56:49 ◼   ► whatever you wanna call it.

00:56:51 ◼   ► I wonder if where Apple is headed

00:56:56 ◼   ► based on the current trajectory of the iPad

00:56:58 ◼   ► is that the 11 inch iPad Pro

00:57:00 ◼   ► is more like a vestigial iPad Pro.

00:57:04 ◼   ► And that in the end, they're the two big iPad Pros.

00:57:08 ◼   ► And if you want something smaller, you get the iPad Air.

00:57:11 ◼   ► - Yep.

00:57:12 ◼   ► Yep, I like that a lot.

00:57:13 ◼   ► Yep.

00:57:15 ◼   ► - I mean, I don't know if you like it.

00:57:16 ◼   ► 'Cause it means you have to choose between a 12.9 or an Air.

00:57:19 ◼   ► - Well, I mean, I like it.

00:57:19 ◼   ► - And not have that sweet promotion on the middle.

00:57:22 ◼   ► - But I think it makes sense.

00:57:23 ◼   ► I would prefer to see them push the iPad bigger than--

00:57:27 ◼   ► - iPad Pro, right?

00:57:29 ◼   ► Well, and iPad Pro, right?

00:57:30 ◼   ► Like what is left to push the iPad Pro as a platform, right?

00:57:33 ◼   ► You've got the iPad Air.

00:57:34 ◼   ► Like we said, the iPad Pro already is pretty powerful,

00:57:38 ◼   ► but like what more is there to do?

00:57:39 ◼   ► Well, one thing is to continue to push it up

00:57:42 ◼   ► and make a bigger one and have a new keyboard case

00:57:45 ◼   ► that does even more stuff and a bigger screen.

00:57:48 ◼   ► Let me tell you, a stage manager would be much better

00:57:51 ◼   ► on a 15 inch screen than on the 12.9 inch screen,

00:57:55 ◼   ► let alone the 11 inch screen, right?

00:57:57 ◼   ► The bigger screen, the better for stage manager.

00:57:59 ◼   ► So if that's where they're going,

00:58:01 ◼   ► then maybe the 11 inch iPad Pro,

00:58:03 ◼   ► the answer is it's not long for this world

00:58:06 ◼   ► because you should just get an iPad Air at that point.

00:58:09 ◼   ► And the view of the iPad Pro is even like further up,

00:58:14 ◼   ► bigger and more expensive.

00:58:15 ◼   ► I don't know.

00:58:17 ◼   ► But I think for this one,

00:58:18 ◼   ► I suspect what we're going to get is the 12.9 and the 11 as they are except with M2 and

00:58:25 ◼   ► then some accessories, right? Maybe a new keyboard, maybe a new pencil, and charging

00:58:30 ◼   ► some sort of charging story. But yeah, my gut feeling is that it's going to be, essentially,

00:58:37 ◼   ► it's going to be iPhone MagSafe because of what I said before, which is I don't see Mac

00:58:44 ◼   ► MagSafe working on the side. I'd love to be wrong. Really, I would love to be wrong, but

00:58:49 ◼   ► I don't see it. What about the Mac? Well, Ventura. Yep. Right. Mm-hmm. The current rumor

00:58:59 ◼   ► rumors seem pretty good, like, and also pretty boring, which again points to why this might

00:59:05 ◼   ► not even be an event, a virtual event, is, okay, MacBook Pro, which, which here's a funny

00:59:11 ◼   ► pretty boring and yet for our audience and our community,

00:59:16 ◼   ► 'cause the MacBook Air is like the definitive Mac,

00:59:21 ◼   ► but for our audience and community,

00:59:22 ◼   ► I think the MacBook Pro is the definitive Mac.

00:59:24 ◼   ► Like the really serious computery people.

00:59:28 ◼   ► And so it's not boring to have an M2 Pro and Macs processor

00:59:33 ◼   ► in MacBook Pros, right?

00:59:37 ◼   ► Like if they do that and it's the new processor types

00:59:41 ◼   ► that are based on M2, like what is,

00:59:43 ◼   ► and we get a story about like what's in the M2

00:59:46 ◼   ► high-end processors that we haven't seen before.

00:59:49 ◼   ► For our audience, that's really, actually really exciting.

00:59:55 ◼   ► Even if the M2 MacBook Pro hardware is not changed

00:59:58 ◼   ► in any way, which I wouldn't expect it would be.

01:00:00 ◼   ► - Don't think so, I don't think that's gonna happen.

01:00:02 ◼   ► - No reason. - No, it's fantastic.

01:00:04 ◼   ► - They just got where they are, they're doing good.

01:00:07 ◼   ► And that's the thing that gives me pause

01:00:08 ◼   ► about Apple not making a bigger deal with this is,

01:00:11 ◼   ► I mean, they can do a press release and post a video

01:00:13 ◼   ► that's just Johnny Shroogee talking about how amazing it is,

01:00:16 ◼   ► but like, wouldn't you want to get people's attention

01:00:18 ◼   ► for that?

01:00:18 ◼   ► Maybe it's not enough.

01:00:19 ◼   ► And maybe it's too nerdy for everybody,

01:00:21 ◼   ► but for our audience, that's huge.

01:00:23 ◼   ► That's like, wait, there's new high-end M2 processors,

01:00:26 ◼   ► tell me more.

01:00:27 ◼   ► And I have to imagine there will be,

01:00:30 ◼   ► like the rumors certainly point to that.

01:00:32 ◼   ► It's a lot less interesting if the Mac Pro isn't there,

01:00:36 ◼   ► 'cause then we're left with the Mac Mini,

01:00:40 ◼   ► which I love the Mac Mini.

01:00:41 ◼   ► And this is one of those holes in the lineup

01:00:44 ◼   ► that many people have pointed out

01:00:46 ◼   ► where you can't buy a desktop computer

01:00:49 ◼   ► with a Mac's processor,

01:00:54 ◼   ► no, a Pro processor in it, right?

01:00:56 ◼   ► You can get the Macs and the Ultra in the Mac studio

01:00:59 ◼   ► and you can get these straight up M1

01:01:01 ◼   ► in the iMac and the Mac Mini,

01:01:03 ◼   ► but then there's a gap, a performance gap between them.

01:01:07 ◼   ► And there's still the kind of Intel Mac Mini

01:01:09 ◼   ► hanging out on the price charts because even Apple knows

01:01:13 ◼   ► that that M1 Mac Mini is not powerful enough

01:01:15 ◼   ► for a lot of the uses that the Mac Mini is put to.

01:01:17 ◼   ► So seems like it's Mac Mini's time to shine,

01:01:22 ◼   ► where it picks up an M2 presumably,

01:01:28 ◼   ► and also a configuration that's got

01:01:30 ◼   ► that higher end M2 processor.

01:01:32 ◼   ► And my only question there is,

01:01:34 ◼   ► are they gonna have two Mac Minis,

01:01:35 ◼   ► the silver one and the space gray one,

01:01:38 ◼   ► and the Space Gray one is the high-end one,

01:01:40 ◼   ► 'cause that's how they did it with the last Intel one,

01:01:44 ◼   ► is like the Space Gray, it's like,

01:01:45 ◼   ► "No, it's a very serious Mac Mini, it's slightly darker."

01:01:48 ◼   ► I don't know.

01:01:50 ◼   ► - Yeah, you can tell, 'cause it's dark, it's for pros.

01:01:52 ◼   ► Yeah, I wonder if the M2 processors

01:01:58 ◼   ► might not be that much of a story either.

01:02:01 ◼   ► - Could be, I mean, right, they could just say,

01:02:06 ◼   ► "We updated the cores and they're faster."

01:02:07 ◼   ► I mean, that is, I think there's one way to look

01:02:11 ◼   ► at the M2 cycle, which is that it is

01:02:13 ◼   ► a very quiet processor cycle update.

01:02:17 ◼   ► Like it's better, but only a little bit better.

01:02:19 ◼   ► And that perhaps Apple is even kind of poised

01:02:22 ◼   ► to wait until M3 for the big leap.

01:02:25 ◼   ► And that M2 is a little bit more of a placeholder.

01:02:27 ◼   ► - Yeah.

01:02:28 ◼   ► - There's an argument to be made that that's the case.

01:02:31 ◼   ► - Oh, and also it's like, we shouldn't get too like,

01:02:35 ◼   ► lost in the idea that the original M1 chips

01:02:37 ◼   ► were so big a departure,

01:02:40 ◼   ► but that future chips might just be much more iterative

01:02:45 ◼   ► on the original architecture, right?

01:02:47 ◼   ► - For sure, for sure.

01:02:48 ◼   ► I keep thinking that they're gonna probably,

01:02:50 ◼   ► this is true, like we're not gonna get another leap

01:02:54 ◼   ► like we did to M1 because we were coming from Intel

01:02:56 ◼   ► and now we're not.

01:02:57 ◼   ► But what I would say is that they integrated

01:02:59 ◼   ► a bunch of stuff that was in the M2 Pro

01:03:01 ◼   ► or in the M1 Pro into the M2 base model,

01:03:04 ◼   ► which makes me think they've got some stuff

01:03:07 ◼   ► in the higher end M2s to bring in there

01:03:10 ◼   ► so that there's some story there.

01:03:11 ◼   ► That is a subtle esoteric and super nerdy argument,

01:03:14 ◼   ► but for our audience, it's actually kind of important.

01:03:16 ◼   ► For the general public, probably not.

01:03:19 ◼   ► James Thompson is pointing out that there's some question

01:03:22 ◼   ► about would the Macs even ship until November?

01:03:24 ◼   ► Would they announce them later?

01:03:25 ◼   ► If they do press releases, they could totally stagger it

01:03:27 ◼   ► and have an iPad announcement this week or next,

01:03:31 ◼   ► and then a Mac announcement a couple of weeks after that.

01:03:34 ◼   ► it would be fine if they could do that with the rolling thunder or they could just do

01:03:38 ◼   ► it all at once. So we'll see. But anyway, I predict now that if we see these Macs in

01:03:46 ◼   ► the next couple of weeks, regardless of where they ship, I think you're right, Myke. I mean,

01:03:50 ◼   ► bet on boring. That's bet on boring because otherwise they would make, unless they hold

01:03:55 ◼   ► an event, boring is probably what it is. But boring for the general public doesn't mean

01:04:00 ◼   ► and it's boring for us,

01:04:01 ◼   ► because I think there'll be interesting things

01:04:03 ◼   ► in the M2 Pro and Macs,

01:04:05 ◼   ► even if the M2 as a processor generation

01:04:10 ◼   ► is a pretty light upgrade,

01:04:12 ◼   ► there are things they could potentially stuff in there

01:04:14 ◼   ► that might also show the way to a Mac Pro

01:04:18 ◼   ► with an even higher end chip in it.

01:04:21 ◼   ► But I don't think they'll actually say anything

01:04:24 ◼   ► about the Mac Pro is my guess, right?

01:04:26 ◼   ► Like, why would you do that?

01:04:27 ◼   ► - We're never gonna see it.

01:04:28 ◼   ► It's a product that's never gonna come out.

01:04:31 ◼   ► - It's just, you know, once a year we light the candle

01:04:36 ◼   ► and leave the door unlocked and put out a placemat

01:04:40 ◼   ► and leave some cookies and we say,

01:04:42 ◼   ► maybe the Mac Pro will come.

01:04:44 ◼   ► You clear off a spot on the desk,

01:04:45 ◼   ► you leave a power, like a power strip there

01:04:47 ◼   ► and you say, tonight's the night that we wait

01:04:49 ◼   ► for the Mac Pro and everybody knows

01:04:50 ◼   ► it's not gonna appear, but.

01:04:53 ◼   ► - The further it moves away from,

01:04:56 ◼   ► like say, whenever it was, maybe WBC, I don't remember,

01:04:59 ◼   ► the funnier it is that they actually referenced it, right?

01:05:03 ◼   ► That like in the event,

01:05:04 ◼   ► - Yeah. - John Thanos is like,

01:05:05 ◼   ► - It's coming. - It's coming.

01:05:06 ◼   ► And then like the further we get away from that,

01:05:08 ◼   ► it's like, why did you even say it?

01:05:10 ◼   ► Like you didn't even need to,

01:05:12 ◼   ► you didn't need to say it, like, we're fine either way, but.

01:05:15 ◼   ► - I think they did it to basically claim victory.

01:05:19 ◼   ► And say, it really doesn't count.

01:05:23 ◼   ► Like with the Mac Pro, we've done everything,

01:05:24 ◼   ► except the Mac Pro and nobody, nobody cares about that one.

01:05:27 ◼   ► So we're fine.

01:05:28 ◼   ► We're fine.

01:05:29 ◼   ► And then all the, all the Mac nerds in the back are like,

01:05:32 ◼   ► and the high end Mac mini, like, oh, right.

01:05:36 ◼   ► Okay, well maybe they'll claim victory again.

01:05:39 ◼   ► Maybe they'll like, with it,

01:05:40 ◼   ► with the introduction of this high end Mac mini,

01:05:42 ◼   ► now we've completed the transition except for the Mac Pro.

01:05:45 ◼   ► - Mission accomplished.

01:05:46 ◼   ► - Just make us wait a little bit longer.

01:05:50 ◼   ► Anything else you think that they might announce

01:05:52 ◼   ► in the next couple of weeks?

01:05:53 ◼   ► Is there anything else out there?

01:05:55 ◼   ► - I doubt it really.

01:05:56 ◼   ► Like there's always stuff on the horizon,

01:05:58 ◼   ► but like I can't imagine hardware.

01:06:00 ◼   ► I mean, the only other thing is like,

01:06:01 ◼   ► I was 16.1 on live activities, right?

01:06:03 ◼   ► Which you kind of touched on, but like,

01:06:05 ◼   ► I've started to get some betas

01:06:08 ◼   ► that have live activity support.

01:06:10 ◼   ► Live activity support is awesome.

01:06:12 ◼   ► It's really good.

01:06:13 ◼   ► It's really good.

01:06:15 ◼   ► And so I've only got three apps that support it right now.

01:06:19 ◼   ► and I am very excited for more of them.

01:06:24 ◼   ► Something I did not know,

01:06:26 ◼   ► if you have two kind of concurrent live activities going on,

01:06:30 ◼   ► they just stack.

01:06:32 ◼   ► Like I don't know how many you can have at a time,

01:06:35 ◼   ► like on your lock screen,

01:06:36 ◼   ► but like I currently have had in the past like two apps,

01:06:41 ◼   ► they're both running live activities

01:06:44 ◼   ► and they're both visible to me.

01:06:46 ◼   ► I thought that was interesting.

01:06:47 ◼   ► - That's great. - Like it's just

01:06:48 ◼   ► apps as well as obviously with the 14 Pro showing in the Dynamic Island and

01:06:54 ◼   ► that kind of stuff so yeah I'm I'm very excited about live activity support in

01:07:00 ◼   ► the apps that I use so I'm very keen to see where this where this goes and I

01:07:05 ◼   ► expect this will be something that will be adopted by also a lot of mainstream

01:07:10 ◼   ► developers pretty quickly because I think it benefits a lot of them you know

01:07:13 ◼   ► like your Ubers of the world you're like we'll use deliver here but like

01:07:18 ◼   ► Doordash, like all these kinds of companies.

01:07:19 ◼   ► - Sports stuff.

01:07:20 ◼   ► - Yeah.

01:07:21 ◼   ► - I was thinking this will be great,

01:07:22 ◼   ► a great third party opportunity for the Mac.

01:07:25 ◼   ► Follow me here.

01:07:26 ◼   ► One of the great things, and again,

01:07:27 ◼   ► this is an opportunity Apple should probably participate in

01:07:30 ◼   ► and sync across devices, but failing that,

01:07:32 ◼   ► I was thinking of something like pushover,

01:07:35 ◼   ► which I've complained about before,

01:07:36 ◼   ► but it's the idea that Apple should probably

01:07:39 ◼   ► facilitate the ability to send push notifications

01:07:41 ◼   ► across all your devices from your devices and they don't.

01:07:44 ◼   ► So you have to do something like use an app like pushover

01:07:47 ◼   ► to say, oh, a thing happened on my Mac,

01:07:50 ◼   ► why don't you tell my iPhone in a push notification?

01:07:53 ◼   ► It's dumb, but I think about that for live activities too.

01:07:56 ◼   ► Like what if I set a video encode on my Mac?

01:07:59 ◼   ► Like, wouldn't it be cool to have like a live activity

01:08:01 ◼   ► on my iPhone that showed me where it was

01:08:04 ◼   ► in the process of encoding?

01:08:06 ◼   ► That would be awesome.

01:08:07 ◼   ► Anyway, it's just a thought.

01:08:09 ◼   ► You know me, Myke, I've already always got a Mac angle.

01:08:12 ◼   ► - Well, I mean, you're the Mac guy, right?

01:08:14 ◼   ► - New iPhone features and I go,

01:08:16 ◼   ► but what about the Mac?

01:08:17 ◼   ► How will that work with the Mac?

01:08:18 ◼   ► How can the dynamic island affect the Mac?

01:08:21 ◼   ► My column does not.

01:08:24 ◼   ► - The entire column.

01:08:27 ◼   ► No, it doesn't.

01:08:29 ◼   ► - No, no, no, Myke, you can't do it that way.

01:08:31 ◼   ► Pro tip, you gotta, it's 800 words.

01:08:33 ◼   ► So it's gotta be like,

01:08:34 ◼   ► while many iPhone users are fascinated

01:08:36 ◼   ► by the dynamic island,

01:08:38 ◼   ► the Mac users are left to wonder what it means for them.

01:08:40 ◼   ► Well, I have some surprising thoughts about that.

01:08:43 ◼   ► And then you go on, the first section is like,

01:08:45 ◼   ► Listen to this, we're really getting the inside track on journalism today.

01:08:49 ◼   ► Let me give you the background about the Magn- oh you know the the island was introduced in

01:08:54 ◼   ► 2022 and la la and then it's like oh now let's think about the notch on the MacBook Pro. Would

01:09:01 ◼   ► that be a place for the dynamic island? Well no probably not because it's just a big notch

01:09:07 ◼   ► and so in conclusion probably not. Have you written this article yet or are you just about to?

01:09:15 ◼   ► that is the thought process that goes through my head whenever I write an article like that,

01:09:18 ◼   ► a think piece article. Fortunately, when I'm, especially when it's the, you know,

01:09:24 ◼   ► Macworld wants one of these every week, I think through these topics and I sometimes,

01:09:29 ◼   ► right, you put them through the grinder of like, is this gonna work? Because I'm not gonna write it

01:09:35 ◼   ► and get 500 words in and go, "Oh my god, this is nothing." At least I'm not gonna do that that

01:09:40 ◼   ► often. It's like 40 columns a year, it can happen. But ideally what you want to do is put it through

01:09:46 ◼   ► the little like virtual machine of what would this column be and what would be its bolt points and

01:09:50 ◼   ► how would it work. And with something like that inane idea, you get to the end and you'd be like,

01:09:56 ◼   ► "No. Nope, that's not a column. Delete. That's not the topic." And then you find one that actually

01:10:04 ◼   ► bears enough weight that you can get 800 words out of it. But the structure is the same, it's

01:10:08 ◼   ► It's just that that would be a completely empty pointless

01:10:10 ◼   ► column, and they shouldn't pay me for it, which is why

01:10:13 ◼   ► I wouldn't have written it.

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01:11:34 ◼   ► Our thanks to Doppler for their support of this show and Relay FM.

01:11:38 ◼   ► We finish out today's ques- uh, bleh bleh, did we finish out today's show?

01:11:43 ◼   ► We've asked upgrade questions. We don't think it's finished today's question. We've asked upgrade show.

01:11:48 ◼   ► You're having trouble. We better end this thing. Just fire the lasers so we can move on.

01:11:52 ◼   ► Choo choo choo choo.

01:11:54 ◼   ► Paul wants to know, "Jason, do you have any updates on your experience with the schlag enclosed

01:11:59 ◼   ► closed in code plus door lock. Schlag. Schlag. It's totally Americanized. Schlage. Schlage

01:12:06 ◼   ► is what it should be but it's Schlag. Any updates? Well, Paul sent this in on Twitter

01:12:11 ◼   ► and I sent Paul a link to my story about it on Six Colors dot com. Yeah but that was then.

01:12:17 ◼   ► This is now. Right? Yeah, it works. It's good. It's solid. Home key is great. There's now

01:12:25 ◼   ► Now a new lock that's got home key that's out.

01:12:28 ◼   ► And it's interesting 'cause it's basically

01:12:30 ◼   ► like a smart lock that hides inside a key lock.

01:12:33 ◼   ► - I think that one looks awesome.

01:12:35 ◼   ► It's called like the level lock or something.

01:12:37 ◼   ► - Yeah, yeah.

01:12:38 ◼   ► So they've got a new model that's got home key support

01:12:41 ◼   ► which is NFC.

01:12:42 ◼   ► It's basically on your Apple Watch or your iPhone.

01:12:45 ◼   ► You have a home key and wallet.

01:12:46 ◼   ► You set it as your active home key

01:12:48 ◼   ► and you just tap and it unlocks.

01:12:51 ◼   ► Now I like having the keypad on mine actually

01:12:55 ◼   ► because it allows us to do things like

01:12:57 ◼   ► if we have somebody staying here,

01:12:58 ◼   ► how sitter, for example, we give her a code

01:13:01 ◼   ► and she can enter it in.

01:13:02 ◼   ► We don't have to give her a key, a spare key,

01:13:03 ◼   ► but we could do that.

01:13:05 ◼   ► And that level lock is that.

01:13:06 ◼   ► So no one even knows it's anything but a regular lock

01:13:09 ◼   ► with a key hole in it,

01:13:12 ◼   ► but it's actually this NFC lock.

01:13:16 ◼   ► And so, yeah, you tap and it opens,

01:13:19 ◼   ► which is, that was my problem with my old lock is that,

01:13:21 ◼   ► you know, it's trying to use Bluetooth shenanigans

01:13:23 ◼   ► and not doing a very good job of it.

01:13:25 ◼   ► and it would only open some of the time for us.

01:13:27 ◼   ► And now if I come up to the front door

01:13:29 ◼   ► and I'm kind of perfecting my gesture

01:13:31 ◼   ► of basically laying my Apple Watch

01:13:33 ◼   ► on the square of the keypad and it unlocks the door.

01:13:37 ◼   ► It's a, so I'm liking it,

01:13:39 ◼   ► but that level lock looks interesting too.

01:13:43 ◼   ► - I'm gonna put a link in the show notes

01:13:45 ◼   ► to Quinn Nelson did a YouTube, like did a short.

01:13:48 ◼   ► - It's a little video, yeah.

01:13:50 ◼   ► - And I just think it looks great

01:13:52 ◼   ► 'cause like this one just looks like a lock

01:13:54 ◼   ► and it doesn't look like a smart lock.

01:13:56 ◼   ► And I think that there's something nice about that,

01:13:58 ◼   ► particularly.

01:13:59 ◼   ► - Oh, I agree.

01:14:01 ◼   ► - None of these things are available in the UK yet.

01:14:04 ◼   ► One day they will be, and then I'll be happy.

01:14:05 ◼   ► - One day.

01:14:06 ◼   ► And there's different standards for building,

01:14:08 ◼   ► which is part of the problem, right?

01:14:10 ◼   ► Like our American locks are weird

01:14:12 ◼   ► compared to many of the locks that are in the UK,

01:14:15 ◼   ► but you could get your big smart home buddy

01:14:19 ◼   ► to send them to you and then just put them in your door

01:14:22 ◼   ► and just have an American door.

01:14:24 ◼   ► American door. Yeah, I wouldn't mind an American door.

01:14:27 ◼   ► You know, like how we have American fridges?

01:14:29 ◼   ► Do you know about this?

01:14:30 ◼   ► - Do you have that?

01:14:31 ◼   ► Wait, what?

01:14:32 ◼   ► - Any fridge that's got two doors

01:14:35 ◼   ► is known here as an American fridge.

01:14:37 ◼   ► - Which is great 'cause I think we call those French doors.

01:14:41 ◼   ► - Really? - I think.

01:14:43 ◼   ► - French doors are a thing that I know of like as doors.

01:14:47 ◼   ► That's funny. - Yeah.

01:14:49 ◼   ► - It's like French fries, you know?

01:14:51 ◼   ► - Right, they're from Belgium.

01:14:53 ◼   ► No, but like, you know, French, so they freedom doors?

01:14:56 ◼   ► (laughs)

01:14:59 ◼   ► - In certain parts of this country, probably so.

01:15:01 ◼   ► - Freedom doors.

01:15:01 ◼   ► - But really, Myke, when you think about it,

01:15:02 ◼   ► aren't all doors freedom doors?

01:15:05 ◼   ► - No.

01:15:06 ◼   ► - If they're open.

01:15:07 ◼   ► - What if it's jail?

01:15:08 ◼   ► - And unlocked.

01:15:08 ◼   ► - Yeah, it depends on what side you're on, right?

01:15:12 ◼   ► As to whether a door is a freedom door.

01:15:13 ◼   ► - No, if the door is open, it's freedom to go in or out.

01:15:15 ◼   ► - Yeah, but if the door is closed on you and locked,

01:15:17 ◼   ► it's no longer a freedom door.

01:15:18 ◼   ► - Then it's not freedom anymore.

01:15:19 ◼   ► No, that's true.

01:15:20 ◼   ► But isn't that the locks problem, not the doors problem?

01:15:23 ◼   ► The door is made to swing, otherwise it's a wall.

01:15:26 ◼   ► - What if it's a sliding door?

01:15:29 ◼   ► Does that make a difference?

01:15:31 ◼   ► - Well, that's why we call them sliding doors,

01:15:33 ◼   ► 'cause they're different.

01:15:33 ◼   ► - Right, okay.

01:15:34 ◼   ► - And pocket doors, of course, slide on the inside

01:15:37 ◼   ► and you can put them in your pocket.

01:15:38 ◼   ► - European fridges, they're typically like fridge

01:15:41 ◼   ► and freezer stacked on top of each other, right?

01:15:43 ◼   ► Like it's just one column, 'cause they're slim,

01:15:46 ◼   ► because smaller homes, right?

01:15:49 ◼   ► So we have just slim fridges. - Oh, right, yeah, sure.

01:15:51 ◼   ► But if you get a fridge that has like,

01:15:52 ◼   ► you open two doors left and right,

01:15:54 ◼   ► you got like the freezer on the left

01:15:56 ◼   ► and the fridge on the right or whatever,

01:15:57 ◼   ► that is an American fridge.

01:15:58 ◼   ► - Oh, I see, I see.

01:15:59 ◼   ► Oh, we call it, well, so that we call a Side-by-Side.

01:16:02 ◼   ► - Okay, when does French doors come into the mix then?

01:16:05 ◼   ► - Well, my refrigerator is French doors

01:16:09 ◼   ► and that's the, it's actually on the,

01:16:13 ◼   ► the freezer's on the bottom and it slides out.

01:16:15 ◼   ► - Oh, I would still call it an American fridge

01:16:17 ◼   ► just 'cause it has two doors.

01:16:18 ◼   ► If it has two doors next to each other.

01:16:19 ◼   ► - But the refrigerators are on the,

01:16:20 ◼   ► - The refrigerator's on the top

01:16:22 ◼   ► and it has two doors that open instead of one.

01:16:25 ◼   ► - Yeah, the configuration is not so much of the,

01:16:28 ◼   ► for us, the reason you call it an American fridge

01:16:30 ◼   ► is if it has two doors that open side by side,

01:16:33 ◼   ► no matter how it's arranged,

01:16:34 ◼   ► even if the freezer's on the bottom

01:16:36 ◼   ► or the freezer's on one side or whatever.

01:16:38 ◼   ► - Well, we sort of different,

01:16:40 ◼   ► I mean, French doors are becoming more of the norm here,

01:16:42 ◼   ► but we sort of differentiate that versus a side,

01:16:45 ◼   ► like I grew up with a side by side,

01:16:46 ◼   ► which is it's one unit and there's a long,

01:16:50 ◼   ► or there's a tall door on the right

01:16:52 ◼   ► that is the refrigerator and a tall door on the left

01:16:54 ◼   ► that is the freezer.

01:16:55 ◼   ► That's what I grew up with.

01:16:57 ◼   ► - Yeah, okay.

01:16:59 ◼   ► - And we wouldn't have,

01:17:00 ◼   ► I don't think we would have called that French doors.

01:17:01 ◼   ► We would have just called that a side-by-side.

01:17:04 ◼   ► All right, well, this is good stuff, good knowledge,

01:17:07 ◼   ► robot or not, that's the question.

01:17:09 ◼   ► - Fridge or not.

01:17:09 ◼   ► Next question comes from Tim.

01:17:13 ◼   ► Jason is a firm believer in page turn buttons on e-readers,

01:17:18 ◼   ► but I have never heard him talk about the option

01:17:21 ◼   ► to scroll with an e-reader.

01:17:23 ◼   ► I tend to read eBooks on iPads

01:17:25 ◼   ► and find that a wonderful way to move forward.

01:17:28 ◼   ► What are Jason's thoughts on scrolling with e-readers?

01:17:31 ◼   ► - So first off, everybody should read

01:17:34 ◼   ► in the way that they like.

01:17:35 ◼   ► I heard from some people who said,

01:17:37 ◼   ► "Why do you like page turn buttons?

01:17:38 ◼   ► I hate them.

01:17:39 ◼   ► I press them by accident.

01:17:41 ◼   ► I prefer to just tap the screen."

01:17:43 ◼   ► I'm glad that you feel that way and it works for you.

01:17:46 ◼   ► I hate it.

01:17:47 ◼   ► I hate the taps, the taps aren't always accurate.

01:17:51 ◼   ► And on the Kobo, you can actually turn the taps off

01:17:54 ◼   ► because also if you wanna brush dust off your screen,

01:17:57 ◼   ► it advances the page and I don't like that.

01:18:00 ◼   ► And the clicking of a page turn button,

01:18:05 ◼   ► I can rest my thumb on the page turn button

01:18:08 ◼   ► and all I have to do is press it and press it and press it.

01:18:11 ◼   ► I don't move my hand.

01:18:12 ◼   ► And I know this is a minor thing,

01:18:15 ◼   ► but I don't really like the ergonomics

01:18:17 ◼   ► of having to get a nice grip on the e-reader

01:18:20 ◼   ► and then change the grip to turn a page

01:18:23 ◼   ► by moving my finger or thumb over,

01:18:26 ◼   ► having it cover part of the screen temporarily,

01:18:29 ◼   ► touch it, hope that the page actually turns,

01:18:31 ◼   ► and then move it back and go back to my original grip.

01:18:34 ◼   ► I'd much rather keep one grip the whole time.

01:18:36 ◼   ► So that's basically the source of it.

01:18:37 ◼   ► And I find the page turn buttons to be much more reliable.

01:18:40 ◼   ► Also, some people like scrolling, like Tim.

01:18:45 ◼   ► Scrolling on e-ink is not good.

01:18:47 ◼   ► So that's the first thing is these e-ink readers.

01:18:50 ◼   ► I have that one that I tried out.

01:18:52 ◼   ► That's the Android e-ink reader where you run Android.

01:18:55 ◼   ► And I thought it would be really interesting.

01:18:57 ◼   ► And it was interesting,

01:18:58 ◼   ► but it was kind of ultimately a failure, I think.

01:19:00 ◼   ► And it, they had a thing where they were using,

01:19:04 ◼   ► essentially they were doing a key,

01:19:06 ◼   ► like keyboard emulation kind of thing

01:19:07 ◼   ► to do page turn buttons,

01:19:08 ◼   ► because while you could scroll,

01:19:11 ◼   ► you really wouldn't want to.

01:19:12 ◼   ► Just the way the refreshing of an e-ink screen works.

01:19:15 ◼   ► it's bad.

01:19:16 ◼   ► On an iPad, I think it's interesting

01:19:20 ◼   ► that Tim really loves to scroll.

01:19:23 ◼   ► I don't like scrolling long documents.

01:19:25 ◼   ► I find it very fiddly to have to, you know,

01:19:29 ◼   ► I am constantly scrolling up and up and up.

01:19:31 ◼   ► I really do prefer,

01:19:33 ◼   ► and that's one of the reasons I prefer an E Ink reader

01:19:36 ◼   ► is if it's a very, very long thing like a book,

01:19:39 ◼   ► 'cause I've done that on my iPhone, right?

01:19:40 ◼   ► Like I'm at the doctor's office

01:19:41 ◼   ► and I don't have my E reader with me,

01:19:45 ◼   ► but I want, and I'm waiting for an unknown amount of time,

01:19:48 ◼   ► I will load the e-reader app on my phone.

01:19:52 ◼   ► And even there, I've tried it in scroll mode

01:19:55 ◼   ► and I just don't like it.

01:19:57 ◼   ► Which is not to say that I don't scroll through Twitter

01:19:58 ◼   ► and I don't scroll through my RSS readers

01:20:00 ◼   ► and I don't scroll web pages.

01:20:01 ◼   ► I do all those things, but there's, I don't know,

01:20:04 ◼   ► something about knowing that this book is going on

01:20:06 ◼   ► for thousands and thousands of pages.

01:20:09 ◼   ► I don't, I just don't wanna scroll it.

01:20:11 ◼   ► I just, and above a certain amount,

01:20:14 ◼   ► even on a very long, like a magazine article on the web, I get a little uncomfortable after

01:20:19 ◼   ► a while with the fact that I'm going to be scrolling this thing forever. Plus, I find

01:20:22 ◼   ► scrolling distracting because I end up putting my thumb on the screen and going like, "Scroll

01:20:25 ◼   ► up down," like wiggling it around a little bit and that's no good, like, "Mmm." I don't,

01:20:31 ◼   ► anyway. But everybody has their own preferred method. I just, that's mine.

01:20:36 ◼   ► So scroll or not to scroll?

01:20:38 ◼   ► Hmm. Is it robot or not again?

01:20:41 ◼   ► Mm-hmm.

01:20:43 ◼   ► Nathan asked, "Should folks with smart home accessories wait until new matter products

01:20:49 ◼   ► reach the market or should we continue buying existing home kit or echo or whatever products?

01:20:56 ◼   ► I'm considering some security cameras, doorbells, door locks and maybe a thermostat."

01:21:03 ◼   ► My recommendation to you Nathan is that if you do not need to buy any smart home product

01:21:08 ◼   ► right now, don't.

01:21:09 ◼   ► Just wait.

01:21:10 ◼   ► Like wait.

01:21:11 ◼   ► We are just a few weeks away from the Matter thing being officially unveiled or whatever

01:21:17 ◼   ► and I expect that we might at that point get even more details than we have now.

01:21:21 ◼   ► I don't think it's a good time to buy anything smart home related unless you are confident

01:21:27 ◼   ► as to whether it will or will not support Matter.

01:21:31 ◼   ► I think it's going to be much more beneficial for you in the sense of future compatibility

01:21:39 ◼   ► way because I do genuinely believe, I am a matter believer, right? Like I think it's

01:21:45 ◼   ► going to be very beneficial, I'm excited about it. I think that you're best knowing

01:21:51 ◼   ► that question beforehand. I agree 100%. If you can put it off, put it off because

01:21:57 ◼   ► they're in the midst of a text transition. After we get through the

01:22:00 ◼   ► transition it will be clear what things have been transitioned and what the

01:22:03 ◼   ► story is. There will probably be some products that fade away if they aren't

01:22:06 ◼   ► gone already. Everybody else will have a story about like, "Well, this is how it works."

01:22:11 ◼   ► If you can avoid it, avoid it for now. And especially if you're going to make a big investment

01:22:17 ◼   ► in a whole bunch of stuff, I would hold off until we know what the details are with matter

01:22:21 ◼   ► and how it shakes out. If you can't, I would say just shop very carefully and try to buy

01:22:27 ◼   ► things from companies that have professed a desire to provide a matter compatibility

01:22:33 ◼   ► for that product, right? You can do that. It's just extra work to do it if you can avoid

01:22:36 ◼   ► it I would say like Myke avoid it last question comes from Brants what are the

01:22:41 ◼   ► ideal objects to stick stickers on oh boy I think laptops I do think laptops

01:22:47 ◼   ► are good and I have actually stuck a couple of stickers on my MacBook Air

01:22:50 ◼   ► which I've not done in a really long time much to my wife's upset I'm sure

01:22:57 ◼   ► because when we sell the devices Adina does is very good at like doing all the

01:23:03 ◼   ► eBay stuff and so she kind of like prefers the devices and that kind of

01:23:08 ◼   ► stuff and gets them ready to be sold which when I've stuck stickers on

01:23:12 ◼   ► devices also requires removing the stickers which could be like a whole

01:23:16 ◼   ► thing and so I've stopped doing it except now I have done it on my MacBook Air.

01:23:21 ◼   ► The stickers that we have for the St. Jude campaign which include these little

01:23:25 ◼   ► character versions which are officially called X-Ray Man and Mr. Yellow one is

01:23:30 ◼   ► is me one is Stephen, they're very good looking

01:23:34 ◼   ► as laptop stickers and I have gone ahead and done that.

01:23:38 ◼   ► - I am not a big sticker person.

01:23:42 ◼   ► I have some stickers on the little pencil case on my desk.

01:23:46 ◼   ► I have some stickers on my iPod HiFi,

01:23:50 ◼   ► which I used to have on my desk that's now in the corner,

01:23:52 ◼   ► but I can see a little upgrade sticker over there.

01:23:54 ◼   ► Some other stickers over there.

01:23:55 ◼   ► I would say I put a lot of stickers on,

01:23:58 ◼   ► when I, well, I don't put a lot of stickers on anything,

01:24:00 ◼   ► But when I put stickers on something,

01:24:01 ◼   ► it's something sort of non-essential

01:24:03 ◼   ► that I'm not too worried about.

01:24:04 ◼   ► I have a sticker on my iPad smart keyboard.

01:24:11 ◼   ► I thought about doing more there.

01:24:14 ◼   ► I had one on the previous one

01:24:16 ◼   ► and there was something about putting stickers

01:24:19 ◼   ► on the accessory and not the iPad

01:24:21 ◼   ► that for some reason makes me feel okay,

01:24:23 ◼   ► which I find it's kind of funny,

01:24:26 ◼   ► but I feel okay about that.

01:24:27 ◼   ► So my previous iPad keyboard, I gotta be honest,

01:24:30 ◼   ► One of the reasons that I am hesitant about stickers,

01:24:32 ◼   ► and I've got lots of stickers that are unstuck,

01:24:35 ◼   ► is I hate, when I fix a sticker on something

01:24:40 ◼   ► it means that it's life is now,

01:24:42 ◼   ► it's living its best life, but its life is now temporary.

01:24:46 ◼   ► And when that product goes away, the sticker's life ends.

01:24:51 ◼   ► And so if I really like a sticker,

01:24:52 ◼   ► I end up in this very weird situation

01:24:54 ◼   ► where I'm afraid to stick the sticker,

01:24:56 ◼   ► because it's a really good one and I don't wanna blow it.

01:24:59 ◼   ► But at the same time, once it's stuck,

01:25:01 ◼   ► I also know that it's, you know,

01:25:03 ◼   ► when that product is gone, that sticker is gone too.

01:25:05 ◼   ► And that makes me sad.

01:25:07 ◼   ► So it's, you know,

01:25:09 ◼   ► I have lots of complicated feelings about stickers.

01:25:11 ◼   ► Every now and then I find my previous smart keyboard,

01:25:14 ◼   ► which I still have, or maybe the, yeah,

01:25:18 ◼   ► smart keyboard before the magic keyboard came out,

01:25:20 ◼   ► the smart keyboard.

01:25:22 ◼   ► And it's got some stickers on it.

01:25:23 ◼   ► And I see the stickers and I'm like,

01:25:24 ◼   ► "Aw, oh, I miss them."

01:25:26 ◼   ► But it's too bad they're gone.

01:25:28 ◼   ► They're on the old hardware that I don't use anymore.

01:25:32 ◼   ► If only I didn't care about stickers.

01:25:35 ◼   ► If I didn't love them so much, I would use them more.

01:25:38 ◼   ► - I will say maybe the very, very best thing

01:25:40 ◼   ► is to stick stickers on a keyboard case,

01:25:43 ◼   ► but I've never really brought myself

01:25:45 ◼   ► to wanna put a case on my keyboard,

01:25:47 ◼   ► on my laptop, sorry, I should say not keyboard,

01:25:49 ◼   ► on a laptop case, you know,

01:25:50 ◼   ► like you can get those little cases that go on laptops,

01:25:53 ◼   ► that kind of thing. - Sure.

01:25:54 ◼   ► Well, that's how I feel about the magic keyboard

01:25:56 ◼   ► for the iPad, right?

01:25:58 ◼   ► It's like, there's something about it where it's,

01:26:00 ◼   ► there's a different threshold there of,

01:26:03 ◼   ► I can, you know, I'm not doing this on the iPad,

01:26:06 ◼   ► I'm just doing this on the keyboard.

01:26:07 ◼   ► And then when it's not in the keyboard case,

01:26:09 ◼   ► it's different, right?

01:26:11 ◼   ► It doesn't have those, but when it is,

01:26:12 ◼   ► then there they are.

01:26:14 ◼   ► I don't know.

01:26:15 ◼   ► I don't have a lot of bumper stickers on my car either,

01:26:18 ◼   ► right?

01:26:19 ◼   ► Like I'm not a big sticker person.

01:26:22 ◼   ► - If you would like to send in a question for us to answer

01:26:26 ◼   ► on a future episode of the show.

01:26:28 ◼   ► Just send out a tweet with the hashtag #askupgrade and it can be included in a

01:26:33 ◼   ► future episode, or you can use ?askupgrade in the Relay FM members discord, which

01:26:37 ◼   ► you get access to if you subscribe to Upgrade Plus.

01:26:41 ◼   ► Go to getupgradeplus.com and you will get longer ad-free versions of every episode

01:26:45 ◼   ► of Upgrade for either $5 a month or $50 a year, and you'll also be helping support

01:26:51 ◼   ► the show.

01:26:51 ◼   ► Thank you to everybody that does.

01:26:53 ◼   ► I would also like to thank our sponsors of this episode, Doppler, CleanMyMac X, and TextExpander.

01:26:58 ◼   ► And thank you for listening.

01:26:59 ◼   ► If you want to find Jason online, go to SixColors.com, and he is @JasonL on Twitter.

01:27:04 ◼   ► I am @IMyke, I-M-Y-K-E.

01:27:07 ◼   ► And we'll be back next time.

01:27:08 ◼   ► Until then, say goodbye Jason Snell.

01:27:11 ◼   ► Goodbye Myke Hurley.

01:27:12 ◼   ► [MUSIC]