ATP

00:00:00 ◼   ► And you're gonna hear all the coughs and sniffles and everything else that normally we have

00:00:06 ◼   ► time to take out.

00:00:08 ◼   ► It has nothing to do with our studio, which is excellent, and I'm very enthusiastic about

00:00:11 ◼   ► this, but it has everything to do with the fact that we want to get this out immediately.

00:00:15 ◼   ► Meanwhile, I'm watching Jon and Tiff take pictures.

00:00:18 ◼   ► Put your camera down.

00:00:19 ◼   ► I'm trying to get every time I take a picture.

00:00:23 ◼   ► Okay, so this is our special WWDC episode.

00:00:28 ◼   ► We are recording it the day of the keynote, and it is right after the keynote, or I'm

00:00:33 ◼   ► sorry, right after the afternoon session.

00:00:35 ◼   ► We are at the Macworld Studios, so thank you very much to Jason Snell for letting us crash

00:00:40 ◼   ► his studio and use his equipment in order to get this podcast to you lickety-split and

00:00:44 ◼   ► not sound like garbage.

00:00:46 ◼   ► So thank you very much, Jason Snell.

00:00:49 ◼   ► Everyone tweet him a big thank you just so his inbox explodes.

00:00:51 ◼   ► At @jsnell.

00:00:52 ◼   ► Or you can listen to his podcast, The Incomparable, on 5x5.

00:00:55 ◼   ► Email Marco!

00:00:57 ◼   ► (laughing)

00:00:59 ◼   ► So some stuff happened today.

00:01:01 ◼   ► Today was a busy day.

00:01:03 ◼   ► And John, do you have any thoughts about today by chance?

00:01:08 ◼   ► - We should have talked about a plan of attack

00:01:09 ◼   ► for this podcast, 'cause there is way too much

00:01:12 ◼   ► that happened today for us to discuss

00:01:13 ◼   ► on one episode of the podcast.

00:01:14 ◼   ► No doubt we will be talking about these things

00:01:16 ◼   ► for many episodes to come, and it probably would have been

00:01:18 ◼   ► a good idea for us to have a plan of like,

00:01:20 ◼   ► okay, today we're just gonna talk about iOS 8,

00:01:22 ◼   ► or we're just gonna talk about Swift,

00:01:24 ◼   ► or we're just gonna talk about,

00:01:25 ◼   ► but we don't have a plan because we are disorganized.

00:01:27 ◼   ► - Are you suggesting that you did not do your homework?

00:01:29 ◼   ► - Oh, we didn't know it was gonna be enough until today,

00:01:31 ◼   ► so how could we, you know, but anyway,

00:01:32 ◼   ► I think that we, what do you wanna do?

00:01:34 ◼   ► Do you wanna focus on a particular area,

00:01:36 ◼   ► or do you just wanna do, give broad sweeping stuff?

00:01:37 ◼   ► 'Cause if we wanna do everything,

00:01:39 ◼   ► we need to have a list of bullet points

00:01:40 ◼   ► and say, okay, we gotta talk about this, that, that, that,

00:01:41 ◼   ► and get through them all.

00:01:42 ◼   ► Otherwise, we're gonna dive into one of these topics

00:01:44 ◼   ► and spend the whole show on it, which I'm also fine with.

00:01:48 ◼   ► - Well, let's just start going down the list,

00:01:50 ◼   ► and if we end up going off on a tangent

00:01:52 ◼   ► that lasts 12 hours, then so be it.

00:01:54 ◼   ► So, what did we see today?

00:01:57 ◼   ► Well firstly, on the way in, we got celebrated

00:02:00 ◼   ► by the line people, which was weird.

00:02:04 ◼   ► I've never seen that before.

00:02:05 ◼   ► So as you're on your way in,

00:02:07 ◼   ► so you wrap around the block a couple times,

00:02:09 ◼   ► and then at something like 7, 7, 3,

00:02:11 ◼   ► well, something around 7, 30, they let you into Moscone,

00:02:16 ◼   ► and you end up going to the second level of Moscone.

00:02:19 ◼   ► And so you go up these escalators, and we hear cheering.

00:02:22 ◼   ► We hear cheering going on, and I'm thinking to myself,

00:02:24 ◼   ► what is happening?

00:02:26 ◼   ► And sure enough, they had, I guess they're Apple employees,

00:02:29 ◼   ► but they had all these Apple employees lined up,

00:02:31 ◼   ► saying like, "All right, yeah, be excited."

00:02:35 ◼   ► And it's like 7.30 in the morning,

00:02:36 ◼   ► we're all exhausted and jet-lagged,

00:02:38 ◼   ► and they're trying to pump us all up,

00:02:40 ◼   ► and I'd never seen that before, and it was odd.

00:02:42 ◼   ► - That's what they do with Apple Store openings, right?

00:02:44 ◼   ► They have the Apple Store,

00:02:45 ◼   ► they have employees come out and applaud for everybody.

00:02:47 ◼   ► I mean, at least at that point,

00:02:48 ◼   ► people know what they're excited about,

00:02:49 ◼   ► but on the way into the keynote,

00:02:51 ◼   ► we don't know what we're going to be excited about.

00:02:52 ◼   ► And there was plenty in the keynote worth applauding.

00:02:54 ◼   ► Had we known what we were going to see,

00:02:56 ◼   ► we would have been jazzed as well probably, but we didn't, so it was just a bunch of tired

00:02:59 ◼   ► people.

00:03:00 ◼   ► Yeah, it was different, to say the least.

00:03:01 ◼   ► Then they tried to get a dub-dub-DC chant going, which was extremely, I don't know,

00:03:05 ◼   ► it was odd.

00:03:06 ◼   ► But then we made it into the keynote room.

00:03:08 ◼   ► That worked out well.

00:03:09 ◼   ► And the keynote started fairly slow, I thought.

00:03:12 ◼   ► I didn't think it had that much speed to it.

00:03:14 ◼   ► And everyone seemed really confident and really relaxed.

00:03:19 ◼   ► And I didn't know what to make of it.

00:03:20 ◼   ► So what was the first, what was some of the first stuff they covered?

00:03:24 ◼   ► I didn't start taking notes until about halfway through,

00:03:25 ◼   ► so I don't know if you guys, all right.

00:03:28 ◼   ► This is an accidental podcast.

00:03:30 ◼   ► - I mean, one of the things I noticed first was,

00:03:31 ◼   ► you know, just like the mood of everyone.

00:03:32 ◼   ► Like, you know, Tim comes out,

00:03:34 ◼   ► and Tim is relaxed and laid back.

00:03:37 ◼   ► And this is a side of Tim we haven't seen a lot of,

00:03:40 ◼   ► if any, really, and he was kind of fiery.

00:03:43 ◼   ► And like, he was like taking jabs

00:03:45 ◼   ► at Google and Windows and stuff.

00:03:46 ◼   ► And it was the kind of thing, you know,

00:03:48 ◼   ► we've seen that from jobs in the past,

00:03:51 ◼   ► but Tim has always shown a more reserved approach

00:03:53 ◼   ► of those usually and he'll put in jabs here and there that are more subtle in the past

00:03:57 ◼   ► but I think this was the first time we saw him really like feel free to just dig in and

00:04:04 ◼   ► he seemed and I think what we saw play out is that the reason he was so confident and

00:04:11 ◼   ► laid back, which is the same reason that all the presenters were so confident and laid

00:04:15 ◼   ► back is because they knew they had a kick ass lineup that they were announcing and like

00:04:21 ◼   ► they were very proud and confident

00:04:23 ◼   ► in what they were about to show us,

00:04:24 ◼   ► and we didn't know yet.

00:04:26 ◼   ► So at the time, we just like, wow,

00:04:27 ◼   ► that's, they seem like they're really relaxed today.

00:04:31 ◼   ► And it flowed very well.

00:04:33 ◼   ► It was much more put together,

00:04:36 ◼   ► much more seamless than, I would say,

00:04:39 ◼   ► any Apple event in the last three years.

00:04:42 ◼   ► - I would say that he seemed less rehearsed.

00:04:44 ◼   ► Not that, I mean, we know they rehearsed like crazy, right?

00:04:46 ◼   ► But in Tim Cook's first several keynotes,

00:04:50 ◼   ► you could tell that he was well-rehearsed.

00:04:52 ◼   ► And he would come out there and say what he was going to say.

00:04:55 ◼   ► And it was like, oh, I can see that he is saying something

00:04:57 ◼   ► that he has pre-scripted.

00:04:58 ◼   ► Whereas, I mean, now it was the same exact thing this time,

00:05:00 ◼   ► but he sounded less rehearsed.

00:05:02 ◼   ► So again, because he was relaxed.

00:05:03 ◼   ► As for the rest of the keynote, there

00:05:06 ◼   ► was so much stuff in this keynote

00:05:08 ◼   ► that whole important technologies got

00:05:11 ◼   ► like a slide and five seconds.

00:05:13 ◼   ► And it was like, wait, what was that?

00:05:15 ◼   ► And then they're on to the next thing.

00:05:16 ◼   ► Because there just wasn't enough time.

00:05:18 ◼   ► And I mean, it's obvious they're trying

00:05:20 ◼   ► keep it to a two hour keynote.

00:05:21 ◼   ► They're trying not to go three hours, four hours,

00:05:23 ◼   ► whereas other companies, I mean Google's done that,

00:05:25 ◼   ► Microsoft's gone really long, Sony,

00:05:27 ◼   ► if you wanna go to the gaming space.

00:05:28 ◼   ► There have been press conferences

00:05:29 ◼   ► where when people have a lot to announce,

00:05:31 ◼   ► they say, well we've got a lot to announce

00:05:32 ◼   ► and everybody will love it, and they just go.

00:05:34 ◼   ► And Apple was like, we have a lot to announce,

00:05:36 ◼   ► but we're gonna hold it to two hours

00:05:37 ◼   ► 'cause we've got a schedule to keep.

00:05:38 ◼   ► So there was so much in this keynote

00:05:41 ◼   ► that there were things that got one slide

00:05:44 ◼   ► that are more significant than things

00:05:45 ◼   ► that got like 10 minutes in previous years.

00:05:48 ◼   ► - Yeah, it was, you could tell, like, you know,

00:05:50 ◼   ► we were, what I love about this is that so much of it

00:05:53 ◼   ► was a surprise, you know, there were very few spoilers

00:05:56 ◼   ► of any value here, even like, you know,

00:05:58 ◼   ► one of the biggest spoilers, Healthbook,

00:06:00 ◼   ► was kind of wrong in, you know, how--

00:06:02 ◼   ► - And it was like an asterisk on the end of the presentation.

00:06:04 ◼   ► It was like, oh yeah, we got this health thing,

00:06:06 ◼   ► whatever. - Yeah.

00:06:07 ◼   ► - Well, I mean, it was like we said,

00:06:08 ◼   ► the possibility of like them introducing APIs

00:06:11 ◼   ► for integration with third-party things,

00:06:12 ◼   ► and then maybe something of their own in the future,

00:06:14 ◼   ► and so Apple was not going anywhere near anything wearable

00:06:16 ◼   ► or anything today, it's like we have a bunch of APIs,

00:06:19 ◼   ► and third-party applications can use it,

00:06:21 ◼   ► and I think that'll be great, guys, right?

00:06:22 ◼   ► Okay, moving on.

00:06:23 ◼   ► I mean, it was one, in the scope of this keynote,

00:06:25 ◼   ► it was a minor announcement.

00:06:27 ◼   ► - Yeah, it was really wild, and I gotta say,

00:06:29 ◼   ► to back up just a smidge, that I loved snarky Tim Cook.

00:06:33 ◼   ► Oh, I thought it was great.

00:06:34 ◼   ► I really, really did.

00:06:36 ◼   ► And I think that the corny jokes that Apple made,

00:06:40 ◼   ► like, during last WWDC, and I can't think of them

00:06:43 ◼   ► off the top of my head, maybe it was with Eddy Cue

00:06:46 ◼   ► and iWork and he did like the band poster, whatever it was.

00:06:50 ◼   ► And I just felt like that was so corny and contrived.

00:06:53 ◼   ► And this year, with the exception of the hair thing,

00:06:55 ◼   ► which I think we've taken a little too far,

00:06:57 ◼   ► I thought everything else was well done.

00:06:59 ◼   ► I thought it was the right amount of snark,

00:07:00 ◼   ► the right amount of humor,

00:07:02 ◼   ► which is not something I'm used to seeing from Apple.

00:07:05 ◼   ► I mean, Jobs had his own shticks here and there,

00:07:07 ◼   ► but generally speaking, they've been fairly by the book.

00:07:10 ◼   ► And I love this slightly more casual Apple.

00:07:13 ◼   ► the titles in the WWDC sessions where it was like,

00:07:17 ◼   ► "Well, wouldn't you like to know?"

00:07:19 ◼   ► And, "Well, we wish we could tell you."

00:07:20 ◼   ► I love this new Apple.

00:07:22 ◼   ► I don't know, Jon, as the old man of the three of us

00:07:24 ◼   ► in terms of Apple lineage,

00:07:26 ◼   ► what do you think about this more casual setup?

00:07:29 ◼   ► - The thing about the humor and the jokes is,

00:07:31 ◼   ► like, there's two parts to that.

00:07:31 ◼   ► One is how relaxed the people are making the things,

00:07:34 ◼   ► and we already said the people seem relaxed

00:07:35 ◼   ► 'cause they were confident

00:07:36 ◼   ► 'cause they had a lot of good stuff to show,

00:07:37 ◼   ► and because they're experienced.

00:07:38 ◼   ► When they brought out the newer people

00:07:39 ◼   ► who hadn't presented as many times,

00:07:41 ◼   ► they were shakier, kind of like Craig was in the beginning,

00:07:43 ◼   ► but now he's more experienced.

00:07:44 ◼   ► But the second thing is,

00:07:46 ◼   ► the jokes were just as silly and corny as they've always been

00:07:50 ◼   ► but when you're announcing things

00:07:52 ◼   ► that get the audience excited,

00:07:53 ◼   ► the audience is predisposed to forgive your mistakes

00:07:55 ◼   ► because they're so jazzed about what you just showed before.

00:07:57 ◼   ► And so that is the effect.

00:07:59 ◼   ► Basically, if you have great things to show,

00:08:01 ◼   ► if you have announcements that the audience is gonna love,

00:08:03 ◼   ► they will also be in the mood to laugh at your stupid jokes.

00:08:06 ◼   ► And if you're showing stuff that's boring

00:08:08 ◼   ► and you make a stupid joke, you're like,

00:08:09 ◼   ► not only are you not entertaining me

00:08:10 ◼   ► and releasing things that I want,

00:08:11 ◼   ► but you're making a stupid joke and wasting my time.

00:08:13 ◼   ► So it's all about audience atmosphere.

00:08:16 ◼   ► And we were, as the announcements rolled on,

00:08:20 ◼   ► we were all very receptive to anything.

00:08:22 ◼   ► - That's true.

00:08:23 ◼   ► And I think that the pace in general

00:08:25 ◼   ► seemed not that brisk in the beginning,

00:08:28 ◼   ► but by the end, my goodness, it was a fire hose

00:08:31 ◼   ► just getting leveled at all these developers

00:08:34 ◼   ► and in the best possible way.

00:08:35 ◼   ► But things got fast.

00:08:37 ◼   ► And this comes back to what you were saying earlier

00:08:38 ◼   ► about, oh yeah, well, we've got this health thing.

00:08:40 ◼   ► oh yeah, and we've got these new dev tools.

00:08:42 ◼   ► Oh yeah, and we've got this new language.

00:08:43 ◼   ► And it was unbelievable how quick it was.

00:08:46 ◼   ► There was a lot happening today.

00:08:47 ◼   ► - There was also just a level of refinement

00:08:49 ◼   ► that we haven't seen in a while.

00:08:51 ◼   ► And even with Jobs, this isn't really a Steve Jobs thing,

00:08:55 ◼   ► 'cause even with Jobs, there were some weird

00:08:56 ◼   ► and sloppy moments in the events.

00:08:59 ◼   ► For the last couple years, Apple's events have seemed

00:09:02 ◼   ► stuffy, almost sterile, kind of uptight.

00:09:05 ◼   ► And I was even worried, 'cause when we saw Eddie Q

00:09:08 ◼   ► and Jimmy Iovine last week,

00:09:10 ◼   ► I think Eddy Cue did not come off that well either.

00:09:12 ◼   ► I think he came off a little uptight there.

00:09:13 ◼   ► And so I was kind of worried,

00:09:15 ◼   ► that's kind of the apple we've seen recently.

00:09:18 ◼   ► And like last year, like you said,

00:09:21 ◼   ► some of the jokes were kind of overplayed or stale.

00:09:24 ◼   ► They ran too many videos last year.

00:09:26 ◼   ► - Yeah, that's another good point.

00:09:27 ◼   ► - Yeah, and then they kept running the same video

00:09:30 ◼   ► for like three events in a row.

00:09:32 ◼   ► Like it was, this year they ironed out all those bugs

00:09:36 ◼   ► in their presentation and it was just a smooth presentation

00:09:40 ◼   ► from start to finish, there were no remote control cars,

00:09:43 ◼   ► it was just very, very well done.

00:09:46 ◼   ► And I mean, what they announced,

00:09:47 ◼   ► I don't even know where to begin.

00:09:49 ◼   ► It was just a lot.

00:09:53 ◼   ► - I think we can begin with OS X

00:09:54 ◼   ► because I think despite people thinking

00:09:56 ◼   ► that this is gonna be, and us also saying

00:09:57 ◼   ► this was gonna be a big OS X release,

00:09:59 ◼   ► and it is visually, I guess from the user perspective,

00:10:01 ◼   ► I think it was the smallest of the things

00:10:03 ◼   ► that they announced today.

00:10:04 ◼   ► 'Cause they put up the big slide,

00:10:05 ◼   ► it's gonna be OS X, iOS 8,

00:10:06 ◼   ► and then dev, developer tools, right?

00:10:09 ◼   ► And all of those three things,

00:10:11 ◼   ► they led with the smallest one, like they always do,

00:10:12 ◼   ► you save the best for last.

00:10:13 ◼   ► So I think we could dispense with OS X pretty quickly

00:10:16 ◼   ► if you wanna cover that in the beginning.

00:10:18 ◼   ► - Oh, so your review is gonna be short as well then?

00:10:20 ◼   ► - It might be, I don't know.

00:10:21 ◼   ► I mean, the thing about it is,

00:10:22 ◼   ► I mentioned to you guys before,

00:10:24 ◼   ► a lot of the things they put in the iOS section

00:10:26 ◼   ► or in the dev developer tools section of the keynote

00:10:29 ◼   ► also apply to OS X.

00:10:30 ◼   ► It's just that we don't think of them that way

00:10:32 ◼   ► because anything that's shared between OS X and iOS

00:10:35 ◼   ► is gonna go into the iOS session

00:10:36 ◼   ► because that's what everyone cares about

00:10:37 ◼   ► because the Mac is a smaller platform.

00:10:39 ◼   ► But that stuff applies to OS X as well,

00:10:40 ◼   ► so I'm not entirely sure.

00:10:41 ◼   ► But I think we can start with OS X.

00:10:44 ◼   ► What we thought was gonna happen was a big visual refresh.

00:10:47 ◼   ► What we got was a big visual refresh.

00:10:49 ◼   ► - It wasn't that big a visual refresh though?

00:10:51 ◼   ► I mean, it's pretty big.

00:10:52 ◼   ► - I was actually surprised how radical it wasn't.

00:10:56 ◼   ► - Yeah, that's exactly my point.

00:10:57 ◼   ► - What did you expect that you didn't see?

00:10:59 ◼   ► - Well, I expected everything to be all white

00:11:01 ◼   ► and thin and wispy and it wasn't.

00:11:03 ◼   ► Like it was, it still looks like Mac OS X.

00:11:06 ◼   ► It's still, it's not a jarring change.

00:11:10 ◼   ► It is an evolutionary change and it's exactly, I think,

00:11:14 ◼   ► the kind of change that was warranted.

00:11:16 ◼   ► They didn't need to totally throw away everything.

00:11:18 ◼   ► Like remember, like I'm not supposed to talk about this

00:11:20 ◼   ► on Gruber's show, but remember like, you know,

00:11:22 ◼   ► Gruber was even saying like, you know,

00:11:23 ◼   ► what are they gonna do about shadows,

00:11:24 ◼   ► about layering windows?

00:11:25 ◼   ► And it turns out they didn't do anything different.

00:11:27 ◼   ► We still have window shadows because windows

00:11:29 ◼   ► still are windows, they still look like windows,

00:11:30 ◼   ► they're still layered.

00:11:31 ◼   ► You know, it wasn't as radical of a change

00:11:34 ◼   ► as I think a lot of people were assuming

00:11:36 ◼   ► or fearing that it would be.

00:11:37 ◼   ► And there are a few weird issues with it

00:11:41 ◼   ► that I'm not thrilled with.

00:11:43 ◼   ► I think the translucency difference

00:11:47 ◼   ► between the sidebar is translucent to the desktop

00:11:50 ◼   ► and the title bar is translucent to the view under it

00:11:53 ◼   ► within its own window.

00:11:54 ◼   ► And there's these weird layering things

00:11:56 ◼   ► that are conceptually a little odd,

00:11:57 ◼   ► but I think overall it looks great

00:12:00 ◼   ► and it looks like a nice modernization

00:12:03 ◼   ► of what they already had rather than throwing it all away

00:12:05 ◼   ► and making something totally, radically different.

00:12:08 ◼   ► - Here's the thing about that new look.

00:12:11 ◼   ► It's not the type of thing where you're gonna install

00:12:15 ◼   ► this new OS and all your apps are gonna look like the apps

00:12:17 ◼   ► that they showed in the keynote.

00:12:19 ◼   ► Because this stuff doesn't get enabled by default.

00:12:21 ◼   ► Like you have to opt into it.

00:12:22 ◼   ► And so Apple's apps are gonna look like that.

00:12:24 ◼   ► Apple's apps are gonna have title bars

00:12:27 ◼   ► with the window widgets right in line with them,

00:12:28 ◼   ► like they do already in some apps,

00:12:29 ◼   ► like the App Store app is like that, I think,

00:12:31 ◼   ► and a couple other ones.

00:12:33 ◼   ► and Apple's apps are going to have a translucent sidebar,

00:12:35 ◼   ► and Apple's apps are going to have translucent title bars.

00:12:38 ◼   ► It's not going to transform all your apps

00:12:40 ◼   ► into this crazy translucent thing.

00:12:41 ◼   ► So for the most part, what most people's Macs

00:12:45 ◼   ► are going to look like is they're

00:12:47 ◼   ► existing apps with different title bars, different fonts

00:12:49 ◼   ► in the menus, and a different doc,

00:12:51 ◼   ► but everything else looking more or less the same.

00:12:55 ◼   ► And I don't know if Apple will be

00:12:56 ◼   ► able to get everybody on board the "hey everybody,

00:12:59 ◼   ► make all your sidebars translucent,

00:13:01 ◼   ► make all your title bars translucent,

00:13:02 ◼   ► and tuck the content underneath it.

00:13:04 ◼   ► I don't know if they're gonna go in that direction.

00:13:06 ◼   ► So I'm trying to think about what real Macs

00:13:08 ◼   ► will look like running the F70,

00:13:10 ◼   ► not what we saw in the keynote.

00:13:13 ◼   ► - Yeah, I don't know.

00:13:14 ◼   ► The other thing that struck me about the visual refresh

00:13:17 ◼   ► was when I saw Windows 7 for the first time,

00:13:20 ◼   ► and this was when I'd already had a Mac at this point,

00:13:22 ◼   ► and I was already all in on OS X,

00:13:24 ◼   ► I felt like, what do they call the Windows 7 visual refresh?

00:13:28 ◼   ► I can't remember now.

00:13:29 ◼   ► It doesn't matter.

00:13:30 ◼   ► But anyway, but where everything got true--

00:13:31 ◼   ► - It's not Metro, right?

00:13:32 ◼   ► something else. No, it was pre-metro. But anyway, the point is, it was all very translucent

00:13:37 ◼   ► and similar ideas. And I actually thought, from the very first time I saw it, that the

00:13:40 ◼   ► Windows 7 stuff looked pretty good. I agree with Marco, especially with this odd amount

00:13:46 ◼   ► of translucence, where I'm translucent to one thing here, but I'm translucent to this

00:13:50 ◼   ► other thing there. It's Arrow, by the way. Feedback from the chat, sorry. It's what?

00:13:53 ◼   ► Oh, Arrow. Yes, thank you. So, Arrow I thought looked great from the beginning. And I don't

00:13:58 ◼   ► even know if Microsoft is backpedaled on that or not. But this new OS X setup, I look good,

00:14:04 ◼   ► but I have my reservations.

00:14:05 ◼   ► Well, that's what I'm saying. I don't think your screen is going to look like that. I

00:14:08 ◼   ► think it's going to look like what it looks like now, and then Safari might look different

00:14:12 ◼   ► and Mail will look different. Most of your apps will look the same.

00:14:14 ◼   ► That's a fair point.

00:14:15 ◼   ► I mean, the whole thing with the translucency is to what end? To what end? Why are these

00:14:22 ◼   ► things translucent? That is always the question. And it's Apple's job, I think, to justify

00:14:28 ◼   ► why someone would want to do this to their application.

00:14:30 ◼   ► Because there are downsides in terms of readability,

00:14:32 ◼   ► in terms of variability.

00:14:34 ◼   ► Is this something that people want?

00:14:35 ◼   ► Does it look really awesome on people?

00:14:37 ◼   ► Like Brush Metal, the justification was basically

00:14:39 ◼   ► people think it looks cool.

00:14:40 ◼   ► And so everybody made their apps Brush Metal.

00:14:42 ◼   ► Whether it was or not, that was, you know,

00:14:44 ◼   ► if you were to ask Apple, why should people do this?

00:14:46 ◼   ► Be like, well, people think it's cool.

00:14:47 ◼   ► And they did think it was cool,

00:14:48 ◼   ► and they used Brush Metal everywhere.

00:14:49 ◼   ► Well, I don't know if people think

00:14:51 ◼   ► this translucence is all that cool.

00:14:53 ◼   ► I mean, iOS 7 has it as well.

00:14:55 ◼   ► Granted, the APIs were not as open,

00:14:56 ◼   ► so everyone couldn't go hog wild with it.

00:14:57 ◼   ► But it will really depend on whether people think it's worth adopting these things.

00:15:02 ◼   ► Because if they don't, it's just OS X, but everything, you know, candy-colored and

00:15:07 ◼   ► iOS 7-ified.

00:15:08 ◼   ► Yeah, but didn't they say during the keynote that the idea was to give you some context

00:15:12 ◼   ► within your document, which I don't really buy for the record.

00:15:14 ◼   ► Yeah, but like, what does that mean?

00:15:15 ◼   ► What does the context mean?

00:15:16 ◼   ► Yeah, exactly.

00:15:17 ◼   ► Previously, I wasn't aware that my document continued off the top of this page, but now

00:15:19 ◼   ► that I can see the green image showing through my title bar, I'm aware that it goes off

00:15:23 ◼   ► the—like, how does that provide you any more context than simply clipping the image

00:15:26 ◼   ► at that point?

00:15:27 ◼   ► - And always showing a scroll bar

00:15:28 ◼   ► so you could see the scroll position.

00:15:30 ◼   ► I forget which word they were using,

00:15:32 ◼   ► I don't think it was context,

00:15:33 ◼   ► but they did have a talking point

00:15:34 ◼   ► of how translucency provides you.

00:15:36 ◼   ► One thing was you can pick your desktop background

00:15:39 ◼   ► and that will influence how your apps look

00:15:40 ◼   ► to let the personality of your desktop background

00:15:42 ◼   ► show through in your apps.

00:15:43 ◼   ► Is that something that people want?

00:15:44 ◼   ► Do they want the personality of their desktop background

00:15:46 ◼   ► showing through in their apps?

00:15:47 ◼   ► Do they just wanna use their apps

00:15:48 ◼   ► to read their mail and stuff

00:15:49 ◼   ► and they don't wanna see the desktop image behind it?

00:15:51 ◼   ► It looks like a big model mess.

00:15:52 ◼   ► But again, these are all opt-in things.

00:15:54 ◼   ► Your apps aren't just gonna all of a sudden

00:15:56 ◼   ► become translucent, Apple is obviously opting into them, and they will be a good test bed,

00:16:00 ◼   ► and it will be interesting to see if this is something people want. Whether developers

00:16:04 ◼   ► think it looks cool and they just ship it to people and then people complain, or developers

00:16:07 ◼   ► never even ship it and it just ends up being a different looking Mac OS.

00:16:11 ◼   ► So, anything else on the visual refresh? Because, I mean, I think that's pretty much all I had

00:16:16 ◼   ► to say about it.

00:16:17 ◼   ► I like the idea of them redoing the, trying to constrain the icons into the different

00:16:24 ◼   ► Arrangements of having circle icons and square icons and having all the little slanty

00:16:27 ◼   ► They showed them people taking pictures of the iMac screen up

00:16:30 ◼   ► But I'm sure there's more showing all the little slanted rectangle icons all looking identical identically slanted and everything. That's a reasonable unification

00:16:38 ◼   ► It's a nice middle ground between people thinking. Oh OS X is gonna use round recs for all its icons

00:16:42 ◼   ► It's not right. There are still distinct shapes and again

00:16:45 ◼   ► I think third parties might just ignore this and say well, that's good for you Apple

00:16:48 ◼   ► You can do whatever the hell you want with your icons, but we're still making our icons look like we want

00:16:52 ◼   ► So I think there will be a continued tension between what Apple is doing with Yosemite

00:16:58 ◼   ► and what third-party developers do with it.

00:17:00 ◼   ► And it might be a little weird, kind of like iOS 7 is, where some apps just don't come

00:17:03 ◼   ► all the way on the iOS 7 train.

00:17:05 ◼   ► You've got these apps that, you know, their icons haven't changed since iOS 6 and their

00:17:09 ◼   ► interfaces may be different but they don't look like iOS 7.

00:17:13 ◼   ► They still don't have the iPhone 5 screen size support?

00:17:17 ◼   ► Not that bad, but yeah.

00:17:19 ◼   ► All right, we are sponsored this week first by our friends at Igloo.

00:17:23 ◼   ► Igloo is the internet you'll actually like, and it's about to get even better.

00:17:27 ◼   ► Igloo's next release, Unicorn, is coming this summer.

00:17:31 ◼   ► With it comes social task management, a brand new feature fully integrated throughout the

00:17:35 ◼   ► Igloo platform, providing the perfect balance between project management and getting your

00:17:39 ◼   ► day-to-day work done.

00:17:40 ◼   ► You can manage projects with task lists, optimize for large groups of people, you can assign

00:17:45 ◼   ► tasks from any piece of content like requests and changes be made in a document and you

00:17:49 ◼   ► can create personal tasks that are assigned to you or another person and you can see all

00:17:53 ◼   ► your tasks in one unified view.

00:17:56 ◼   ► You can learn more about this at igloosoftware.com/atp or you can come see Unicorn in person.

00:18:05 ◼   ► Igloo is hosting an event in Toronto, which I think is in Canada, on June 12th with customer

00:18:10 ◼   ► presentations by Hulu and Nextel International.

00:18:13 ◼   ► So go to igloo.com, or sorry, igloosoftware.com/toronto to register for that event.

00:18:20 ◼   ► Otherwise once again, go to igloosoftware.com/atp to check out igloo, the internet you'll actually

00:18:26 ◼   ► like and all the cool stuff they're working on these days.

00:18:28 ◼   ► Thanks a lot to our friends at igloo for sponsoring our show once again.

00:18:32 ◼   ► Yeah, speaking of igloo and other like web type applications, you know all the web apps

00:18:35 ◼   ► that started to change their look to look like iOS 7 after iOS 7 came out?

00:18:40 ◼   ► "Hey, I'm just glad that websites aren't still trying

00:18:42 ◼   ► "to look like iOS old, because that looked terrible."

00:18:45 ◼   ► - Right, but a lot of people who have either

00:18:47 ◼   ► web components to their products or have web apps

00:18:49 ◼   ► took the hint from Windows 8 as well,

00:18:51 ◼   ► but also iOS 7, especially in the Mac world,

00:18:53 ◼   ► to make their websites look like that.

00:18:54 ◼   ► And with the change in look of OS X now,

00:18:57 ◼   ► that turns out to be a good move.

00:18:58 ◼   ► I mean, even Apple is doing it.

00:19:00 ◼   ► They showed what the App Store looks like,

00:19:01 ◼   ► and that's what they were showing, right?

00:19:02 ◼   ► The new App Store app on the Mac looks all different.

00:19:06 ◼   ► That look, that kind of flat, candy-colored look,

00:19:10 ◼   ► If you did that everywhere across your website

00:19:12 ◼   ► on your iOS device, and now the Mac has switched over to it,

00:19:14 ◼   ► that was a good planning because people like that look.

00:19:17 ◼   ► It's simple, it's clean,

00:19:18 ◼   ► and now it is across the entire Apple platform.

00:19:21 ◼   ► - Yeah, so this keynote was to some degree

00:19:25 ◼   ► wonderful and terrible for me.

00:19:27 ◼   ► And it was wonderful because they announced

00:19:30 ◼   ► that we're getting airdrop between devices,

00:19:32 ◼   ► between OSes, I guess I should say,

00:19:34 ◼   ► between Yosemite and between iOS 8, which is great.

00:19:38 ◼   ► But the downside was that we also learned later on that there's this handoff thing that

00:19:46 ◼   ► where if you're, say, working on an email or something like that, and then you want

00:19:51 ◼   ► to finish that email, you're working on it on your phone, you want to finish it on your

00:19:55 ◼   ► computer, and then all of a sudden you can just pitch this email through the ether, through

00:20:01 ◼   ► the air, onto the computer.

00:20:03 ◼   ► And that sounds awesome, and I'm really enthusiastic about it.

00:20:06 ◼   ► I think, and they never confirmed or denied, that that's probably using Bluetooth Low Energy,

00:20:12 ◼   ► and none of my Macs have Bluetooth Low Energy.

00:20:14 ◼   ► It could be using AirDrop, because if AirDrop works between them, and it's supposed to be—the

00:20:18 ◼   ► whole idea is it's proximity-based, so it's not—it's not like they mention, like, "Oh,

00:20:22 ◼   ► you won't have things from your home showing up on your work computer," or vice versa.

00:20:25 ◼   ► So it could be Bluetooth Low Energy.

00:20:26 ◼   ► It could also be AirDrop, which uses that, like, ad hoc Wi-Fi networking thing, I think.

00:20:32 ◼   ► But all of it requires developer support.

00:20:34 ◼   ► Like, this is not magic.

00:20:36 ◼   ► So Apple's Mail, if you use Apple Mail on your Mac and you use Apple Mail on your iOS

00:20:40 ◼   ► device, then yeah, you can do that.

00:20:42 ◼   ► But what if you use something else on either one of those places?

00:20:45 ◼   ► Or what if the things you use, the developer hasn't added support for this?

00:20:48 ◼   ► It still seems like a thing that you have to do, and it could kind of be fidgety enough

00:20:51 ◼   ► that, like, it demos really well, but I don't know.

00:20:55 ◼   ► Like, I understand the frustration they're getting at, because I know when I'm doing

00:20:58 ◼   ► something on one device and I want to just transition to it over there, it would be nice

00:21:01 ◼   ► everything picked up, but this requires so many parties to cooperate and everything to

00:21:06 ◼   ► work for that handoff to work.

00:21:09 ◼   ► Getting the handoff to work could end up feeling like, from the user's perspective, more trouble

00:21:13 ◼   ► than it's worth.

00:21:14 ◼   ► Like, maybe it's just better to just save it as a draft and then go over and pull up

00:21:18 ◼   ► the draft over there.

00:21:19 ◼   ► Like, the old things that we used to be.

00:21:20 ◼   ► It demos well, and I think it's a good idea for this product, but I'm skeptical about

00:21:24 ◼   ► how seamless it will really be in real life.

00:21:26 ◼   ► So I think we'll have to see.

00:21:28 ◼   ► I think it's gonna be one of those things

00:21:30 ◼   ► like notification syncing between devices

00:21:33 ◼   ► and how we were talking last week

00:21:34 ◼   ► how there seems to be this grace period

00:21:36 ◼   ► in current infrastructure that we have now

00:21:38 ◼   ► where if you get an iMessage and you're at your computer,

00:21:41 ◼   ► if the window's focused,

00:21:42 ◼   ► then your phone won't buzz in your pocket,

00:21:43 ◼   ► but if you don't attend to it within a few seconds,

00:21:45 ◼   ► your phone will buzz.

00:21:46 ◼   ► And it's that kind of thing,

00:21:47 ◼   ► and they have worked on that over time,

00:21:49 ◼   ► and it has gotten better over time.

00:21:51 ◼   ► It's still not perfect, but it's gotten better.

00:21:53 ◼   ► This is probably gonna be the same kind of thing

00:21:54 ◼   ► where it's gonna start out probably a little wonky

00:21:58 ◼   ► and then get better over time.

00:21:59 ◼   ► 'Cause it's probably built on the Netexium system.

00:22:02 ◼   ► - Now, I'm hopeful that it is the peer-to-peer WiFi thing.

00:22:06 ◼   ► I'm skeptical, but I'm hopeful.

00:22:08 ◼   ► And we'll see what happens.

00:22:09 ◼   ► But what else did we learn OS 10-wise?

00:22:13 ◼   ► - Well, I mean, one thing that's very interesting, I think,

00:22:16 ◼   ► and I don't know if we're gonna talk about this yet,

00:22:17 ◼   ► is the iCloud Dropbox, basically.

00:22:20 ◼   ► - Yeah, I mean, we talked about whether they would backpedal.

00:22:23 ◼   ► Would they just decide to show the file system?

00:22:25 ◼   ► Or would they try to figure out something else?

00:22:27 ◼   ► And this is kind of like an interesting compromise.

00:22:30 ◼   ► What it seems to me is that they wanted to have their cake

00:22:32 ◼   ► and eat it too, which is they wanted

00:22:33 ◼   ► to have the existing iCloud experience, which is just

00:22:36 ◼   ► like, there's no file system.

00:22:37 ◼   ► You don't have to worry about that.

00:22:38 ◼   ► Every app owns its own files.

00:22:40 ◼   ► Everything is an iCloud.

00:22:41 ◼   ► Everything is ubiquitous and available everywhere.

00:22:45 ◼   ► They wanted to keep that because I think that's good.

00:22:47 ◼   ► But they also wanted to add the ability for people

00:22:49 ◼   ► who knew what they were doing to have something

00:22:52 ◼   ► that was more like Dropbox.

00:22:54 ◼   ► And they didn't want to destroy one with the other.

00:22:56 ◼   ► make it so like if you're using the system the way you've been using it for the past

00:23:00 ◼   ► several years, it will look the same to you.

00:23:02 ◼   ► But if you know what to do, then suddenly you get the equivalent of an open, say, a

00:23:05 ◼   ► dialog box that's showing you, like, you know, the iCloud sidebar and it suddenly shows you

00:23:09 ◼   ► documents.

00:23:10 ◼   ► And what I think will happen is once you put iCloud in the sidebar of the Finder, people

00:23:13 ◼   ► are going to click on it.

00:23:14 ◼   ► People are going to learn they can make new folders there, and people are going to use

00:23:16 ◼   ► it.

00:23:17 ◼   ► And they'll end up using it like Dropbox.

00:23:19 ◼   ► And I think Dropbox has proven that if you constrain—it doesn't make any sense—but

00:23:25 ◼   ► If you constrain the world of the file system to a single place that they can hang their

00:23:28 ◼   ► hat on, like, "It's in my Dropbox," or "It's on my desktop," people are fine with that.

00:23:33 ◼   ► It doesn't matter that the number of levels of hierarchy they create under that are the

00:23:36 ◼   ► same as they could make anyplace else.

00:23:38 ◼   ► It just gives them a starting point and it makes them feel comfortable.

00:23:40 ◼   ► So now, with iCloud in the sidebar, for people who... imagine someone who gets a computer

00:23:46 ◼   ► like, "Oh, you should install Dropbox," and you know they can't install Dropbox.

00:23:49 ◼   ► You know that phrase, "You should install Dropbox," is like Greek to them.

00:23:52 ◼   ► Like, "Well, I don't know what you mean.

00:23:53 ◼   ► I don't know how to install software.

00:23:54 ◼   ► I don't know, is there a website?

00:23:55 ◼   ► Do I do something?

00:23:56 ◼   ► Do I download a disk image?

00:23:57 ◼   ► Do I get it?

00:23:58 ◼   ► Like, nobody knows.

00:23:59 ◼   ► And it's just like, look, go to your finder, in the sidebar there's a thing called iCloud.

00:24:02 ◼   ► Anything you put there when you're, you know, you can put stuff there and you'll see it

00:24:06 ◼   ► everywhere.

00:24:07 ◼   ► And that is like Dropbox.

00:24:08 ◼   ► It's a folder that syncs.

00:24:09 ◼   ► And now iCloud, it's a cloud that syncs, we hope.

00:24:11 ◼   ► I mean, all this, well, to see how reliable it is.

00:24:15 ◼   ► But it's a reasonable compromise.

00:24:17 ◼   ► I like that it acknowledges the fact that Apple has failed to come up with something

00:24:21 ◼   ► so much better that eliminates all the evil of the file system.

00:24:24 ◼   ► and I think they've taken less of Dropbox is like,

00:24:26 ◼   ► the file system is big and confusing,

00:24:28 ◼   ► but if you constrain it to this one place,

00:24:31 ◼   ► whether it makes sense or not,

00:24:32 ◼   ► people suddenly are able, a larger group of people

00:24:34 ◼   ► are suddenly able to deal with it.

00:24:36 ◼   ► Not everybody, but a larger group.

00:24:38 ◼   ► - Yeah, and I think it's, there's also,

00:24:40 ◼   ► this has a huge value in PR for Apple,

00:24:44 ◼   ► 'cause now, like, you know, we've been talking before,

00:24:46 ◼   ► like iCloud is always, is this umbrella term

00:24:49 ◼   ► that refers to lots of different things,

00:24:51 ◼   ► most of which are behind the scenes.

00:24:53 ◼   ► In fact, that Eddy Cue talked about this

00:24:55 ◼   ► in the Jamiyavine thing last week.

00:24:56 ◼   ► This is now a very public-facing version of iCloud

00:25:01 ◼   ► and it works the way people expect modern, quote,

00:25:04 ◼   ► cloud things to work.

00:25:05 ◼   ► It's a cloud sync service for this folder full of files.

00:25:08 ◼   ► That's exactly what people want from a cloud service today,

00:25:12 ◼   ► for the most part.

00:25:13 ◼   ► There's things you build on top of that,

00:25:15 ◼   ► but this is what people want.

00:25:17 ◼   ► And this is gonna be this big thing

00:25:19 ◼   ► that everyone's face uses a Mac,

00:25:20 ◼   ► saying, look, it's iCloud, it works, we get it,

00:25:23 ◼   ► We're in the cloud, we are doing web services,

00:25:25 ◼   ► and they mostly work most of the time.

00:25:27 ◼   ► (laughing)

00:25:27 ◼   ► - And it comes with your Mac, it uses the iCloud account

00:25:30 ◼   ► that they make you set up when you install the OS

00:25:32 ◼   ► or when you set up the device.

00:25:33 ◼   ► Like you don't have to go to a third party,

00:25:34 ◼   ► all the advantages of being part of the platform.

00:25:36 ◼   ► Like all those barriers that prevented people

00:25:39 ◼   ► from getting Dropbox installed.

00:25:40 ◼   ► And in fact, I think there are new APIs in OS X and in iOS,

00:25:45 ◼   ► and I guess we'll probably talk about the whole extensions,

00:25:47 ◼   ► is that what they call it, extensions?

00:25:49 ◼   ► - I believe that's right.

00:25:50 ◼   ► - That was in the iOS section,

00:25:51 ◼   ► But extensions apply to OS X as well.

00:25:53 ◼   ► And so there are extensions in OS X

00:25:55 ◼   ► that will let, for example, Dropbox make

00:25:57 ◼   ► their application better.

00:25:59 ◼   ► So Apple is not just saying, oh, iCloud is built in

00:26:01 ◼   ► and we'll be able to do Dropbox-y like things.

00:26:03 ◼   ► But in fact, we're helping Dropbox out here too,

00:26:05 ◼   ► or helping ourselves out as well.

00:26:08 ◼   ► For example, in not having Dropbox in memory

00:26:10 ◼   ► hacked the Finder to put those little badges on all your icons

00:26:13 ◼   ► to show the green.

00:26:14 ◼   ► And they've got an official API for that

00:26:16 ◼   ► through extensions, which is their safe mechanism

00:26:19 ◼   ► for extending functionality.

00:26:20 ◼   ► think the the notification widget things are similar. Aren't those under the

00:26:23 ◼   ► umbrella of extensions? I believe so. I don't know, the iCloud Drive

00:26:28 ◼   ► thing struck me as so interesting for a couple of reasons. Firstly, it was the

00:26:33 ◼   ► tangible manifestation of Dropbox as a feature not a product and I thought that

00:26:38 ◼   ► was kind of interesting. And then secondly, this was the I believe the

00:26:43 ◼   ► first thing we saw of a series of different features and enhancements and

00:26:49 ◼   ► products and whatnot that are all heavily relying on iCloud. And maybe I'm

00:26:55 ◼   ► amongst a group of people that are giving iCloud a bad rep for no really

00:26:59 ◼   ► good reason anymore. No, they're good reasons. Well, okay, so either way. But they're like, if they

00:27:04 ◼   ► double down on secrecy, which it appears they have, they've like quadrupled down

00:27:08 ◼   ► on iCloud being the bus for their entire ecosystem. And in

00:27:15 ◼   ► In principle, that's wonderful, but that's a lot of pressure to put on a system that

00:27:19 ◼   ► I'm not so sure can handle.

00:27:20 ◼   ► Yeah, they were saying a lot of the right things, like for example, I forget, maybe

00:27:24 ◼   ► this was in the State of the Union, we're not supposed to talk about it or whatever,

00:27:27 ◼   ► but one of the services they were talking about, they mentioned push notifications in

00:27:32 ◼   ► connection with it.

00:27:34 ◼   ► And as we've said on past shows, like, push notifications is one of the things that's

00:27:38 ◼   ► under the iCloud umbrella that seems to work pretty well.

00:27:41 ◼   ► And we're all hoping, more like that, less like iConcord data.

00:27:45 ◼   ► And this presentation was--

00:27:47 ◼   ► I mean, maybe it's just an optimistic thing.

00:27:48 ◼   ► But when they showed these things,

00:27:50 ◼   ► I'm like, I'm optimistic that these new things will

00:27:53 ◼   ► be more like push notifications and less like the things

00:27:56 ◼   ► that haven't come.

00:27:57 ◼   ► Although iMessages, I mean, they added tons of stuff

00:27:59 ◼   ► to iMessage as well.

00:28:00 ◼   ► And that still continues to be a little bit weird and creepy.

00:28:03 ◼   ► So yeah, you're right.

00:28:04 ◼   ► They really put a lot of eggs in this iCloud basket.

00:28:06 ◼   ► And basically what Apple is doing is, I'm assuming,

00:28:10 ◼   ► forcing themselves to get better at this crap.

00:28:12 ◼   ► Like, buy-- - Yeah, fair point.

00:28:13 ◼   ► - 'Cause it will be disastrous if they continue to fumble

00:28:15 ◼   ► and keep putting more and more important things

00:28:17 ◼   ► into the iCloud basket.

00:28:19 ◼   ► - I'm actually pretty confident in what they're doing

00:28:21 ◼   ► because it seems like, you know, Casey, you said like,

00:28:23 ◼   ► you know, they're building a lot of this stuff

00:28:25 ◼   ► on what appears to be the push notification/iMessage

00:28:29 ◼   ► part of iCloud, and that seems to be the part

00:28:32 ◼   ► that is operating at probably the biggest scale,

00:28:35 ◼   ► and is probably the most reliable.

00:28:37 ◼   ► I know people have had iMessage problems here and there,

00:28:39 ◼   ► but we don't know how much that is related to

00:28:41 ◼   ► like the client side software.

00:28:44 ◼   ► It seems like the server side end of that,

00:28:46 ◼   ► you know the push notification, the whole push system

00:28:48 ◼   ► has been really rock solid for the vast majority

00:28:52 ◼   ► of its existence and certainly recently.

00:28:54 ◼   ► So I'm actually pretty confident that the iCloud part

00:28:58 ◼   ► of this is probably not going to be a problem.

00:29:01 ◼   ► Other parts of it, you know,

00:29:02 ◼   ► like the client side code might be.

00:29:04 ◼   ► - Right.

00:29:05 ◼   ► - But it seems like the iCloud services end

00:29:07 ◼   ► of what they're doing, you know,

00:29:08 ◼   ► And people, iCloud core data sync was a disaster,

00:29:11 ◼   ► but that was also probably mostly a client side

00:29:14 ◼   ► and design issue, design of that capability.

00:29:17 ◼   ► - I mean, or even like documents in the cloud,

00:29:19 ◼   ► or a lot of those things kind of work,

00:29:22 ◼   ► but had weird things about them,

00:29:24 ◼   ► or they started off as synchronous,

00:29:25 ◼   ► then they made them asynchronous,

00:29:26 ◼   ► and there's not a lot of visibility,

00:29:28 ◼   ► and when it doesn't work, even today,

00:29:29 ◼   ► if you launch Apple's Notes app,

00:29:31 ◼   ► and you know there are notes that you put in

00:29:33 ◼   ► on your iOS device, the notes have to sit there for a while,

00:29:36 ◼   ► And then eventually your notes show up, you hope.

00:29:38 ◼   ► But if they don't, you have no recourse.

00:29:40 ◼   ► There's no visibility.

00:29:41 ◼   ► And that's why moving to iCloud in the sidebar

00:29:44 ◼   ► and putting stuff there for documents,

00:29:46 ◼   ► at least that gives you some visibility into what's

00:29:48 ◼   ► going on.

00:29:48 ◼   ► But the other APIs, that's still a problem with their cloud

00:29:51 ◼   ► system.

00:29:52 ◼   ► Making it better from a developer's perspective

00:29:54 ◼   ► so developers can tell what the hell's going on.

00:29:55 ◼   ► But from a user perspective, man, this stuff better work

00:29:57 ◼   ► because you have nowhere to go if it doesn't.

00:29:59 ◼   ► You just stare at your app.

00:30:00 ◼   ► It's not even a busy indicator.

00:30:01 ◼   ► You're just like, is my stuff there?

00:30:04 ◼   ► Is it going to come?

00:30:06 ◼   ► - It's so true.

00:30:07 ◼   ► Now aren't they, but they did mention,

00:30:08 ◼   ► I think this was in the NDAA session, so I'll be very vague,

00:30:11 ◼   ► but I believe they mentioned that they're dogfooding

00:30:14 ◼   ► a lot of the stuff they're providing to developers.

00:30:16 ◼   ► So a lot of the stuff that they're giving developers,

00:30:19 ◼   ► they're using those APIs for their own

00:30:23 ◼   ► new features and applications.

00:30:24 ◼   ► - Yeah, that was heartening, although it's like,

00:30:27 ◼   ► it's helpful.

00:30:30 ◼   ► What that means is that if they did a bad job,

00:30:32 ◼   ► Apple will know about it.

00:30:33 ◼   ► That is the best thing about it,

00:30:34 ◼   ► that they'll at least don't know they did a bad job.

00:30:37 ◼   ► It doesn't necessarily mean they did a good job,

00:30:38 ◼   ► and it's kind of bad if they didn't,

00:30:39 ◼   ► because now they're screwing up their own services.

00:30:42 ◼   ► Their own headline features are screwed up

00:30:43 ◼   ► by their own bad APIs,

00:30:44 ◼   ► but presumably because they are dogfooding it,

00:30:46 ◼   ► they'll find out that it's bad,

00:30:47 ◼   ► and it won't just be this, like,

00:30:49 ◼   ► we won't have to wait for developer backlash.

00:30:51 ◼   ► Like Apple's own engineers would be like,

00:30:52 ◼   ► "Your server-side crap is broken,

00:30:54 ◼   ► "and I can't ship my app because it's broken."

00:30:56 ◼   ► - So is there anything else that's fun

00:30:58 ◼   ► and exciting to talk about?

00:30:59 ◼   ► - Oh, I know, before we get to OS X,

00:31:00 ◼   ► I just want one more thing.

00:31:01 ◼   ► - Oh no, we're not done with OS X yet.

00:31:03 ◼   ► - Oh, then the notification center sidebar

00:31:05 ◼   ► and the widgets there, and everyone's like,

00:31:07 ◼   ► "What does that mean for Dashboard?

00:31:08 ◼   ► "Where is Dashboard?"

00:31:09 ◼   ► And they didn't say anything about it.

00:31:12 ◼   ► I'm pretty sure Dashboard's still there in Yosemite.

00:31:14 ◼   ► Jason can nod his head because, yep, he nods his head.

00:31:16 ◼   ► - Well, they didn't say, the implication is that

00:31:20 ◼   ► you should probably not get too attached to Dashboard.

00:31:21 ◼   ► - Right, but anyway, this is a grace period, it seems like.

00:31:24 ◼   ► Apple said nothing about the future of Dashboard,

00:31:26 ◼   ► but anyone who knows anything about Apple

00:31:28 ◼   ► will know that the future of Dashboard is not bright.

00:31:30 ◼   ► And this is not a--

00:31:31 ◼   ► - I'm saying next year it's gone.

00:31:32 ◼   ► Yeah, and this is--

00:31:33 ◼   ► Jason just pulled up Dashboard in Yosemite.

00:31:35 ◼   ► I'm staring at it.

00:31:35 ◼   ► Anyway, it's still there.

00:31:36 ◼   ► But this is not news.

00:31:39 ◼   ► Dashboard has been kind of stagnant

00:31:40 ◼   ► and just sitting there doing nothing for many, many years.

00:31:44 ◼   ► It is a pretty old feature.

00:31:45 ◼   ► What is it, come in 10.4 or something like that?

00:31:47 ◼   ► Yeah, something like that.

00:31:47 ◼   ► It's been around for a long time.

00:31:48 ◼   ► I use it every day.

00:31:49 ◼   ► I still think it's great, but it's clear

00:31:51 ◼   ► that it's not just like this year

00:31:53 ◼   ► that Apple decided to kill it.

00:31:54 ◼   ► It died of natural causes, essentially.

00:31:56 ◼   ► So Dashboard is still there.

00:31:57 ◼   ► You can continue to use it in Yosemite.

00:32:00 ◼   ► I don't know how much longer it will be around.

00:32:02 ◼   ► I bet most people won't mourn it, even though I will,

00:32:04 ◼   ► because I think it's kind of cool.

00:32:05 ◼   ► And you can't, I mean, it's not a direct replacement.

00:32:07 ◼   ► Like, the notification center is a skinny little sidebar

00:32:09 ◼   ► where it's dashboard took up your whole screen.

00:32:11 ◼   ► But third-party opportunity, people.

00:32:14 ◼   ► - We are also sponsored this week, once again,

00:32:16 ◼   ► by our friends at Warby Parker.

00:32:18 ◼   ► Go to warbyparker.com/atp.

00:32:22 ◼   ► Warby Parker is a new concept in eyewear,

00:32:25 ◼   ► although it's only new to you

00:32:26 ◼   ► if you haven't listened to our show ever.

00:32:29 ◼   ► Warby Parker, it was a collaboration between four friends,

00:32:31 ◼   ► And here's the thing, they believe that eyewear should not cost a fortune.

00:32:36 ◼   ► It should be available and affordable to everyone.

00:32:39 ◼   ► Eyeglasses should not cost as much as an iPhone, that's ridiculous.

00:32:42 ◼   ► So they have prescription eyeglasses, very high quality, and they start at just $95 including

00:32:48 ◼   ► the prescription lenses.

00:32:49 ◼   ► They even have a titanium collection starting at just $145 including prescription lenses

00:32:55 ◼   ► that includes premium Japanese titanium, French non-rocking screws, and all sorts of other

00:32:59 ◼   ► niceties.

00:33:00 ◼   ► All of their glasses include anti-reflective and anti-glare coatings at no additional cost.

00:33:06 ◼   ► All of their glasses come with a hard case, which is awesome, and a cleaning cloth.

00:33:09 ◼   ► There's no additional items you need to purchase.

00:33:11 ◼   ► They're not trying to nickel and dime you.

00:33:13 ◼   ► It's great.

00:33:14 ◼   ► They make buying glasses online easy and risk-free.

00:33:17 ◼   ► Now you're probably afraid if you think about buying glasses online and you've never done

00:33:20 ◼   ► it before, you're probably afraid like, "How will I know how they will look on my face?"

00:33:23 ◼   ► They have a couple of ways to address this.

00:33:25 ◼   ► They have these awesome online tools.

00:33:27 ◼   ► You can use your webcam.

00:33:28 ◼   ► They will show, they can even use webcams to help you measure in case your eye doctor

00:33:31 ◼   ► won't give you the prescription details about your sizing, which some of them are weird

00:33:35 ◼   ► about.

00:33:36 ◼   ► They can even help you measure and it's very good, very accurate.

00:33:39 ◼   ► And so you can preview everything there and that's cool, but the best thing about Warby

00:33:42 ◼   ► Parker I think is that they have this home try-on program.

00:33:45 ◼   ► So you can go online, you can pick out up to five styles of glasses that you think might

00:33:50 ◼   ► look good on you or look good in the preview thing and they will send them to you and you

00:33:55 ◼   ► can try them on in your home risk-free.

00:33:57 ◼   ► They send them to you for free, they come to the prepaid return label, you send them

00:34:01 ◼   ► back for free.

00:34:02 ◼   ► You can try them on in your home and you can see how they look on you in person.

00:34:06 ◼   ► And then if you want to buy them, you can.

00:34:08 ◼   ► If you don't want to buy them, no problem.

00:34:10 ◼   ► And not only that, these people aren't nice enough already, for every pair of glasses

00:34:14 ◼   ► that they sell, they distribute a pair of glasses to someone in need through Recognized

00:34:19 ◼   ► Vision Charities.

00:34:20 ◼   ► And this is great because, you know, there are so many people who lack access to eyeglasses,

00:34:28 ◼   ► and you know, if you need glasses, you need them to live, you need them to work, if you're

00:34:33 ◼   ► a kid in school, you need them to learn, to see what's on the board, you know?

00:34:36 ◼   ► It's so important to people, and so Warby Parker donates a pair of glasses for every

00:34:41 ◼   ► pair they sell to people in need, so it's really fantastic.

00:34:44 ◼   ► Anyway, go to warbyparker.com/atp to learn more and to check out their awesome glasses.

00:34:52 ◼   ► And that's it.

00:34:54 ◼   ► So thanks a lot to Warby Parker for sponsoring the show once again.

00:34:57 ◼   ► Yeah, I've told the story a hundred times and I'll make it really quick, but when I

00:35:01 ◼   ► got a set of Warby Parker sunglasses, I put in like four pairs, maybe three pairs of sunglasses

00:35:07 ◼   ► that I, that were my stereotypical, like this is Casey's style, and then I put in a pair

00:35:12 ◼   ► or two that were just completely not the sort of sunglasses I would normally buy.

00:35:16 ◼   ► And sure enough, the ones that I ended up choosing were one of the ones that I didn't

00:35:20 ◼   ► expect to like.

00:35:21 ◼   ► So it actually ends up working out pretty well.

00:35:24 ◼   ► So really quickly, real-time follow-up with regard to Dashboard.

00:35:28 ◼   ► I believe the quote, as I was informed by Jason, was "We suggest you quickly adopt this

00:35:34 ◼   ► new technology with regard to the notification center," which is basically Apple code for

00:35:41 ◼   ► This is going to die prepare yourselves

00:35:43 ◼   ► Yeah

00:35:44 ◼   ► And dashboard was like a weird one-off thing with these HTML you kind of widgets or whatever whereas their

00:35:48 ◼   ► Replacement is part of a larger system that spans both iOS and OS X its extensions system

00:35:53 ◼   ► And I mean maybe that's just an umbrella term and there's no real relation technologically

00:35:57 ◼   ► We haven't learned the details yet

00:35:58 ◼   ► But they're using that term to say you can write extensions for just I mean people in that audience don't know but extensions

00:36:04 ◼   ► We already use that term once on the Mac

00:36:06 ◼   ► And it has bad connotations.

00:36:08 ◼   ► These are different.

00:36:09 ◼   ► And in iOS, it has a totally different thing,

00:36:11 ◼   ► which we'll get to when we talk about iOS 8.

00:36:13 ◼   ► But these new widget things in the sidebar

00:36:15 ◼   ► are part of that system.

00:36:16 ◼   ► It's a way to extend the system.

00:36:18 ◼   ► And I look forward to new ways to extend the system.

00:36:20 ◼   ► Because what this means is Apple has basically

00:36:22 ◼   ► come up with a way for both iOS and the Mac for people

00:36:25 ◼   ► to write system extensions to extend

00:36:28 ◼   ► the functionality of the system.

00:36:29 ◼   ► And that whole idea has been like, yeah, right,

00:36:31 ◼   ► we'll let you put an icon in the menu bar,

00:36:33 ◼   ► but you should really make it black and white.

00:36:35 ◼   ► Because we don't like-- you know.

00:36:36 ◼   ► And we won't let you move yours around.

00:36:37 ◼   ► We can only do that with ours.

00:36:38 ◼   ► Yours just go in a random order.

00:36:40 ◼   ► Tough luck.

00:36:40 ◼   ► Download bartender.

00:36:42 ◼   ► So I'm hoping this is the dawning,

00:36:45 ◼   ► certainly on iOS, it's the dawning of a new age

00:36:47 ◼   ► of extending this.

00:36:48 ◼   ► And I'm hoping on the Mac as well

00:36:49 ◼   ► that it's a sort of a renaissance of extending the Mac

00:36:54 ◼   ► in interesting and safe ways, and Apple approved ways,

00:36:56 ◼   ► versus the old way, which is just like

00:36:58 ◼   ► third parties figuring out how to get it done.

00:37:01 ◼   ► - Yeah, you know, the keynote as a whole,

00:37:02 ◼   ► and perhaps this relates more to iOS than the Mac,

00:37:05 ◼   ► But I felt like the keynote as a whole was an exercise in Apple doing all the things

00:37:09 ◼   ► that we never thought they'd do.

00:37:11 ◼   ► They gave us a whole bunch of photo, well sort of, gave us a whole bunch of photo storage.

00:37:16 ◼   ► They are allowing extensions, like you were saying, both on OS X, which is to be expected,

00:37:21 ◼   ► but also on iOS, including stuff as wild as replacing the system keyboard.

00:37:25 ◼   ► And there were a couple other things, now I'm drawing a blank, but there were, oh, well,

00:37:29 ◼   ► Swift.

00:37:30 ◼   ► There are all these things--

00:37:31 ◼   ► The entire extension thing, I mean, that's a huge thing right there.

00:37:33 ◼   ► So there are all these things that we all,

00:37:36 ◼   ► I think the three of us, everyone really,

00:37:38 ◼   ► have been saying, oh, they've gotta do this,

00:37:40 ◼   ► but they're never gonna do it because they're Apple,

00:37:41 ◼   ► they're stubborn, they're belligerent.

00:37:43 ◼   ► - But I don't think it's like a stubbornness

00:37:45 ◼   ► or like a philosophical objection.

00:37:46 ◼   ► I mean, a lot of us say like, oh,

00:37:47 ◼   ► previously there was a philosophical objection

00:37:49 ◼   ► and now that has changed.

00:37:50 ◼   ► But with a lot of these things,

00:37:51 ◼   ► it's like Apple always wanted to do them,

00:37:53 ◼   ► but it had to wait for certain things.

00:37:56 ◼   ► And on iOS, which I guess we'll transition to soon anyway,

00:37:59 ◼   ► but like it was, and iOS was like,

00:38:01 ◼   ► we don't have the CPU to do that.

00:38:03 ◼   ► We don't have the memory to do that.

00:38:04 ◼   ► We don't have the whatever, like background and all that stuff, because they just had

00:38:07 ◼   ► priorities and didn't fit into them.

00:38:09 ◼   ► And you know, for the sandbox and stuff, we don't have a safe way to do that.

00:38:13 ◼   ► And so all of it was like, when we have the CPU, when we have the memory, when we've come

00:38:18 ◼   ► up with a safe way for you to do it, we will let you do it.

00:38:20 ◼   ► But not before then.

00:38:21 ◼   ► Not like, oh, just add it.

00:38:22 ◼   ► I know how you can get this to work.

00:38:23 ◼   ► Look, if I go to the jailbreak stores, I can get something that does this right now, that

00:38:28 ◼   ► lets me put widgets on the lock screen.

00:38:29 ◼   ► It's like Apple wanted to come up with—everything had to be in place, and the final thing that

00:38:33 ◼   ► had to be in place is we have to have a safe way for you to do things, so you're not compromising

00:38:37 ◼   ► the stability of the system, so you're not allowing malware, so you're not doing all—you

00:38:40 ◼   ► know.

00:38:41 ◼   ► Or your own privacy as well, because they talked about how extensions—very briefly,

00:38:45 ◼   ► they spoke about how extensions are going to be sandboxed, and this might be in the

00:38:49 ◼   ► NDA session, so I should probably shut up—but suffice to say, they took not only security

00:38:53 ◼   ► of the system, but also your information security very seriously.

00:38:56 ◼   ► - Seriously. - Like all the things

00:38:57 ◼   ► they prioritize for, you know,

00:38:59 ◼   ► you are safe using iOS in these ways

00:39:01 ◼   ► and we're not going to let you do all the things

00:39:04 ◼   ► that you guys all wanna do until we have safe ways

00:39:07 ◼   ► to do it within the current envelope of hardware.

00:39:09 ◼   ► And then of course it's a lot of work for them

00:39:11 ◼   ► to make those APIs and this is the year.

00:39:13 ◼   ► This is the year where finally they have crossed

00:39:15 ◼   ► the threshold for all these things.

00:39:16 ◼   ► And there probably is a philosophical aspect of it as well

00:39:19 ◼   ► and if there's been so much shakeup

00:39:20 ◼   ► at the high levels of Apple management

00:39:21 ◼   ► that you can't discount that as one of the possible reasons.

00:39:24 ◼   ► But you have to just look at the way

00:39:27 ◼   ► they're giving us all this stuff,

00:39:28 ◼   ► and all of it is not the same way

00:39:30 ◼   ► that the jailbreak stores gave it to us.

00:39:31 ◼   ► It is an official supported API

00:39:33 ◼   ► that works with their existing sandboxing

00:39:35 ◼   ► and prioritization stuff on the Mac as well as on iOS.

00:39:39 ◼   ► - Yeah, so as a way to transition from Mac to iOS,

00:39:43 ◼   ► I wanted to briefly talk about,

00:39:45 ◼   ► I forget what they called it,

00:39:46 ◼   ► what their marketing term for it was,

00:39:47 ◼   ► but when you can send traditional SMS messages via the Mac,

00:39:52 ◼   ► but your iPhone does the sending.

00:39:56 ◼   ► You can actually even take voice calls--

00:39:57 ◼   ► - Oh, I believe it's called BluePhone Elite.

00:39:59 ◼   ► - Yeah, like eight years ago.

00:40:01 ◼   ► - It is very much, in the demo you might be mistaken

00:40:04 ◼   ► for thinking it's like, oh, I've been able to do that

00:40:05 ◼   ► in Google Voice for years, but it's paired with your phone.

00:40:08 ◼   ► No iPhone, none of this stuff works.

00:40:10 ◼   ► So, but yeah, but it's the same thing,

00:40:12 ◼   ► like the third party products that would basically say,

00:40:14 ◼   ► you've got a phone, but you wanna do stuff

00:40:15 ◼   ► that your phone could only do on your Mac screen.

00:40:18 ◼   ► And it just connects the dots, and it looks really nice,

00:40:20 ◼   ► and it's very seamless, and it's something that we're like,

00:40:22 ◼   ► yeah, that should work that way.

00:40:24 ◼   ► Why do I have to go and pick up the phone

00:40:26 ◼   ► or do, you know, having the caller ID show up

00:40:29 ◼   ► as a notification, having you be able to answer

00:40:31 ◼   ► that call from your Mac.

00:40:32 ◼   ► It's using your phone, but they're all in the same house,

00:40:35 ◼   ► even if it's in another room.

00:40:36 ◼   ► They're all connected on the same network.

00:40:37 ◼   ► Why shouldn't this work?

00:40:38 ◼   ► And Apple made it work.

00:40:40 ◼   ► - I hope it works well, and here again,

00:40:42 ◼   ► I hope it doesn't rely on Bluetooth energy.

00:40:44 ◼   ► I presume in the case of phone calls, it certainly wouldn't.

00:40:47 ◼   ► But nevertheless, I just think it's a really impressive,

00:40:51 ◼   ► It's a really impressive way to leverage the platform and really do what you would hope

00:40:55 ◼   ► and expect these things to do.

00:40:58 ◼   ► And I'm really excited about that.

00:41:00 ◼   ► So with that in mind, let's kind of shift gears to iOS.

00:41:03 ◼   ► There's so much to talk about.

00:41:04 ◼   ► I don't even know where to begin.

00:41:05 ◼   ► I remember when I said that iOS 8 was going to be like the Mavericks of iOS, with just,

00:41:09 ◼   ► you know, not a lot going on the outside and, you know, and some stuff on the inside.

00:41:13 ◼   ► But this is way bigger than a Mavericks release.

00:41:16 ◼   ► It's true that it didn't change the appearance that much.

00:41:18 ◼   ► very little visually has been changed, but all the number of things they're

00:41:21 ◼   ► changing at every other part of iOS is just huge. Yeah, it's really surprising.

00:41:25 ◼   ► There were a couple things that jumped out at me really quickly because they're

00:41:28 ◼   ► things that have been that have really bothered me over the years. They didn't

00:41:32 ◼   ► talk a lot about it in the keynote, but it seems like for iMessages and SMSes

00:41:37 ◼   ► and things like that, it seems like all media is ephemeral by default. If you

00:41:42 ◼   ► look closely at the keynote after like an image or after one of these audio

00:41:46 ◼   ► clips that's I believe new or after a video clip. After each of these it says

00:41:51 ◼   ► "Keep." And so the implication, I think they made a very quick mention of it, but

00:41:55 ◼   ► the implication was if you don't hit the "Keep" button in the next three days or

00:42:00 ◼   ► whatever the number may be, then that's just gonna go away. And I especially

00:42:03 ◼   ► have lamented numerous times about how I had gigs upon gigs of, well probably

00:42:08 ◼   ► animated GIFs, but one way or the other, gigs upon gigs of photos in my

00:42:14 ◼   ► messages app on my phone that I didn't really need and I didn't really want. I wanted them

00:42:19 ◼   ► to go away and I wanted them to do that easily and quickly. And this seems like it's probably

00:42:24 ◼   ► going to be the answer for that.

00:42:25 ◼   ► - Yeah, I mean, they did so, I mean, and this leads very closely to the photos discussion,

00:42:29 ◼   ► I think.

00:42:30 ◼   ► - Yep, absolutely.

00:42:31 ◼   ► - So to recap, basically, they announced this new, a few new things around photos that's

00:42:37 ◼   ► basically, like, you know, it's basically what people wanted, which is like, you know,

00:42:42 ◼   ► Photo stream as a standalone thing is kind of going away

00:42:46 ◼   ► as what it was before.

00:42:47 ◼   ► You still have the shared photo streams,

00:42:49 ◼   ► that's more of a feature.

00:42:50 ◼   ► But as a storage mechanism, photo stream has been

00:42:53 ◼   ► massively upgraded and now you just have,

00:42:55 ◼   ► all of your photos are just in iCloud.

00:42:57 ◼   ► And they use your iCloud storage,

00:43:00 ◼   ► which now has a couple of bigger, cheaper plans.

00:43:03 ◼   ► And it's not, we're not talking about

00:43:06 ◼   ► like revolutionary pricing.

00:43:07 ◼   ► What was it like, it was 200 gigs for four bucks a month?

00:43:11 ◼   ► - Yeah, whatever was, I think it was--

00:43:12 ◼   ► - It was only like 20 gigs for four bucks,

00:43:14 ◼   ► but there was cheap plans.

00:43:16 ◼   ► I mean, it's much cheaper than it was, right?

00:43:18 ◼   ► But like--

00:43:19 ◼   ► - But it's still not like, you know, Google level pricing.

00:43:21 ◼   ► - We don't have enough information yet

00:43:22 ◼   ► to see what this is really gonna be like,

00:43:24 ◼   ► but they said the right thing.

00:43:25 ◼   ► One of the things they said that I'm glad about

00:43:28 ◼   ► was they said we keep your full res pictures, which is--

00:43:30 ◼   ► - And videos.

00:43:31 ◼   ► - Yeah, and videos, which is opposed to--

00:43:33 ◼   ► - It's huge.

00:43:34 ◼   ► - What Marco was saying in the past shows

00:43:35 ◼   ► that like, if Apple needs to,

00:43:37 ◼   ► they should just do a lower res stuff

00:43:38 ◼   ► if they can't handle it,

00:43:39 ◼   ► when Apple's basically saying,

00:43:40 ◼   ► no actually we can handle it.

00:43:41 ◼   ► Not only can we handle your florist pictures,

00:43:43 ◼   ► we'll handle your video too.

00:43:44 ◼   ► Which seems crazy, but hey, go for it, right?

00:43:47 ◼   ► And then the pricing, it's like all that announcement

00:43:49 ◼   ► means nothing unless they adjust the pricing.

00:43:51 ◼   ► And they did adjust the pricing.

00:43:52 ◼   ► Have they adjusted it enough?

00:43:53 ◼   ► We'll see, but the previous pricing was crazy and punitive.

00:43:56 ◼   ► - Well I'm not in love with this pricing,

00:43:58 ◼   ► 'cause what was it, five gigs for free,

00:44:01 ◼   ► which I just think is absurd.

00:44:03 ◼   ► That is ridiculous.

00:44:04 ◼   ► And then I think it was 20 gigs, is that what you're saying?

00:44:05 ◼   ► 20 gigs was-- - 20 and 200.

00:44:08 ◼   ► - With 20 gigs it's like-- - They have plans up

00:44:09 ◼   ► to a terabyte but they didn't say how much those cost.

00:44:11 ◼   ► But it's, I mean, either way we're talking,

00:44:12 ◼   ► you know, it's not dirt cheap, but it's not that expensive.

00:44:16 ◼   ► You know, you're not paying like S3 rates for this.

00:44:18 ◼   ► - Yeah, we would hope, what we would hope is that,

00:44:21 ◼   ► say you're starting off as an Apple customer now

00:44:23 ◼   ► and you're just becoming an adult

00:44:25 ◼   ► and taking pictures or whatever, like,

00:44:26 ◼   ► we would hope that as you accumulate pictures

00:44:28 ◼   ► that Apple's pricing keeps pace and comes down.

00:44:31 ◼   ► But for people with existing large collections,

00:44:33 ◼   ► we're gonna have to look at that and do the math

00:44:35 ◼   ► and say, is this worthwhile for me to do this?

00:44:36 ◼   ► And they didn't mention anything about iPhoto

00:44:38 ◼   ► and I have no idea what the fate of iPhoto is,

00:44:40 ◼   ► and they showed this Photos app, which is like the iOS--

00:44:41 ◼   ► - Oh, come on, you know what the fate of iPhoto is.

00:44:44 ◼   ► - No, because the iOS Photos app doesn't do anything close.

00:44:46 ◼   ► There's iPhoto on iOS too, you know what I mean?

00:44:48 ◼   ► The Photos app is on iOS, and there's also iPhoto on iOS.

00:44:50 ◼   ► - I think iPhoto's going with Dashboard.

00:44:52 ◼   ► - I don't know. - Earlier, even.

00:44:54 ◼   ► - You can't use them for the same,

00:44:55 ◼   ► like, the whole idea that, you know,

00:44:57 ◼   ► can you take your photo collection

00:44:58 ◼   ► and just put it all up into the cloud

00:45:00 ◼   ► and deal with your photos that way?

00:45:01 ◼   ► I don't know what the answer to that is yet.

00:45:03 ◼   ► I don't think that the keynote gave us enough information

00:45:06 ◼   ► to know that.

00:45:06 ◼   ► - I think the implication's very clear.

00:45:09 ◼   ► iPhoto has always had this problem where

00:45:12 ◼   ► iPhoto was originally conceived in a world before

00:45:16 ◼   ► the iPhone and sync and it never had multi-device sync

00:45:19 ◼   ► and everything else.

00:45:20 ◼   ► And PhotoStream kind of half-assed it in there,

00:45:23 ◼   ► but it wasn't a very good solution

00:45:24 ◼   ► and certainly was very confusing.

00:45:26 ◼   ► And then the iPhone comes out and the iPad comes out

00:45:28 ◼   ► and they have this Photos app which is not iPhoto,

00:45:31 ◼   ► distinctly not iPhoto and it has its own way to do things

00:45:34 ◼   ► and store things and manage things.

00:45:35 ◼   ► And then they bring iPhoto to iOS, which is weird,

00:45:38 ◼   ► 'cause they didn't replace photos with it.

00:45:40 ◼   ► They just brought this other photo management program,

00:45:41 ◼   ► which iPhoto and iOS, in my opinion, has never been good.

00:45:45 ◼   ► But maybe that's just me, but it certainly,

00:45:46 ◼   ► I don't think, has gotten widespread adoption.

00:45:48 ◼   ► - How could iPhoto be any good on iOS

00:45:50 ◼   ► if all your photos were in the photo app?

00:45:51 ◼   ► - Exactly.

00:45:52 ◼   ► - But it seems like what they've done

00:45:53 ◼   ► is brought that same dichotomy to the Mac.

00:45:55 ◼   ► And I don't understand why iPhoto

00:45:57 ◼   ► can't be the same app it is today,

00:45:59 ◼   ► but all the photo storage done the iCloud way.

00:46:01 ◼   ► - Oh, I think the new Photos app on the Mac

00:46:04 ◼   ► they showed off that's coming out, was it next spring?

00:46:07 ◼   ► - They said it's not tied, they said next year.

00:46:09 ◼   ► And so basically it means it's not tied to an OS release

00:46:12 ◼   ► and it's not, like it got pushed basically.

00:46:14 ◼   ► It didn't make it into Yosemite, right?

00:46:16 ◼   ► - I'm pretty sure the implication there though

00:46:18 ◼   ► is that the new Photos app for Mac that's coming next year

00:46:21 ◼   ► is the replacement for iPhoto.

00:46:23 ◼   ► - But what they showed was not,

00:46:25 ◼   ► what they showed was the iOS Photos app inside a window

00:46:27 ◼   ► with a dinky little toolbar.

00:46:28 ◼   ► It doesn't come close to like doing keywords and maps

00:46:30 ◼   ► and slideshows and all the stuff that--

00:46:32 ◼   ► - I bet it will.

00:46:33 ◼   ► Because Photos app on iOS already has much,

00:46:37 ◼   ► it doesn't have the management stuff,

00:46:38 ◼   ► but it has the maps and the albums.

00:46:40 ◼   ► It's getting a lot of that already.

00:46:42 ◼   ► I think the implication of where they're going

00:46:44 ◼   ► is very clear.

00:46:44 ◼   ► iPhoto's going away, this is the replacement,

00:46:47 ◼   ► we're just not done with it yet.

00:46:48 ◼   ► - I mean, the good thing is that from the photos

00:46:51 ◼   ► in the cloud, it's what we're talking about with messages.

00:46:53 ◼   ► What they're basically saying is,

00:46:54 ◼   ► some of these photos will be on your local device,

00:46:56 ◼   ► but you have access to more photos.

00:46:57 ◼   ► Like, I mean, Everpix did it.

00:46:58 ◼   ► You didn't have every single photo in your photo library

00:47:00 ◼   ► on your phone just because you uploaded to Everpix,

00:47:02 ◼   ► but you could scroll through all of them

00:47:03 ◼   ► and you can show any one of them,

00:47:04 ◼   ► and Apple is doing that now.

00:47:06 ◼   ► Apple's saying, yeah, we're gonna do that too.

00:47:08 ◼   ► All your photos can't be on your iOS device.

00:47:10 ◼   ► We'll still borrow your photos,

00:47:11 ◼   ► but you can get to all of them from your iOS device,

00:47:13 ◼   ► and you can get to them all from your Mac

00:47:15 ◼   ► sometime next year, and that's what we're looking for.

00:47:16 ◼   ► Unified photos protected in the cloud,

00:47:19 ◼   ► hopefully locally cached on your Mac

00:47:21 ◼   ► when the hard drive is big enough,

00:47:22 ◼   ► and some of them on your phone.

00:47:23 ◼   ► - Yeah, and if the Mac version is good enough

00:47:28 ◼   ► and able to and willing to also import SLR pictures,

00:47:32 ◼   ► pictures from stand-alone cameras,

00:47:34 ◼   ► then that will be amazing.

00:47:36 ◼   ► So I don't know, I think it's very, very clear

00:47:42 ◼   ► where they're going.

00:47:42 ◼   ► - I agree.

00:47:43 ◼   ► - I think, do you think Aputure continues to?

00:47:46 ◼   ► I think it probably does, but.

00:47:48 ◼   ► - Yeah, the pro stuff will lag, but like the whole idea,

00:47:50 ◼   ► it's what we want, we want to have local fast access

00:47:53 ◼   ► to our photos, but we want not to worry

00:47:55 ◼   ► that if our computers die, that we lose our photos.

00:47:58 ◼   ► So we want Apple to store them and back them in the cloud,

00:48:00 ◼   ► have it be synced everywhere, but have fast local copies.

00:48:03 ◼   ► And Aperture, as the pro app, may be like,

00:48:06 ◼   ► well, the pro people don't want their stuff in the cloud,

00:48:08 ◼   ► and it's too big anyway, so let us have it on local hard drives.

00:48:11 ◼   ► But this is going to come.

00:48:14 ◼   ► The whole idea of a transparent storage hierarchy,

00:48:16 ◼   ► where the canonical version is stored in a data center

00:48:19 ◼   ► somewhere really safely for you, hopefully not in HFS Plus,

00:48:23 ◼   ► and all of your local versions are just caches of it.

00:48:26 ◼   ► And everything is synchronized, and everything

00:48:28 ◼   ► is fast because of local caching,

00:48:30 ◼   ► and it's all seamless. That's where all storage is going. And for giant bins of data that

00:48:35 ◼   ► we have, and our giant bins are basically photos and video for regular people, that's

00:48:38 ◼   ► what we want. A storage hierarchy that ends in the cloud and that is transparent to us.

00:48:42 ◼   ► Yeah, and I feel like the photo setup that Apple's building, I'm still grumbly about

00:48:49 ◼   ► the price, but if that's the most of my complaints, then we're still doing a pretty good job.

00:48:53 ◼   ► And I'm really looking forward to it. I'm really looking forward to trying it. The only

00:48:56 ◼   ► thing I wonder though is how are we going to get the years upon years upon

00:49:00 ◼   ► years of photos that we've already taken into... That's what I was thinking like if

00:49:05 ◼   ► they came up with a new version of iPhoto or if the Photos app is the new

00:49:07 ◼   ► version of iPhoto, they would import them or say okay now we're just gonna

00:49:11 ◼   ► transparently make your iPhoto library in the cloud and it'll take forever but

00:49:14 ◼   ► you know there's a path to that. Did they talk about in the keynote the

00:49:18 ◼   ► cloud kit for like a slide and a half right? Yeah, like Gruber said they gave

00:49:22 ◼   ► CloudKit like 90 seconds I mean it was it was quick. Did they mention the what

00:49:26 ◼   ► you get with CloudKit in terms of storage limits,

00:49:28 ◼   ► or was that only in the state of the union?

00:49:29 ◼   ► - No, they did say--

00:49:30 ◼   ► - They went over it very quickly.

00:49:31 ◼   ► They said that it was free with limits,

00:49:33 ◼   ► and you get like, well, there was, we don't,

00:49:35 ◼   ► we can't, the limits were not stated,

00:49:37 ◼   ► so we can't tell you which limits are.

00:49:38 ◼   ► - I thought they were.

00:49:39 ◼   ► - No, they was in a document that, yeah.

00:49:40 ◼   ► - Anyway, they said free with limits,

00:49:42 ◼   ► and those limits are pretty darn high,

00:49:45 ◼   ► we could say, from the discussions we've seen.

00:49:48 ◼   ► So high that I don't understand how Apple is able to give,

00:49:51 ◼   ► to provide the CloudKit free with limits,

00:49:53 ◼   ► to the, it looks too good to be true.

00:49:55 ◼   ► - Oh, to correct, they did give the limits

00:49:58 ◼   ► in the presentation for what the global,

00:50:00 ◼   ► you store whatever petabytes of data.

00:50:01 ◼   ► They did say that, but they didn't tell you

00:50:02 ◼   ► what you get per user.

00:50:03 ◼   ► - Right, well, yeah, but that's interesting, though,

00:50:05 ◼   ► because, sorry, so if they gave the petabyte stat,

00:50:07 ◼   ► they're saying if you make an iOS app,

00:50:09 ◼   ► and say your iOS app is gonna store something big,

00:50:11 ◼   ► like audio files or video,

00:50:13 ◼   ► who knows what it's gonna store, whatever,

00:50:15 ◼   ► for the limits are like, with the free thing,

00:50:18 ◼   ► before you start paying any money is,

00:50:19 ◼   ► oh, you can store a petabyte of data

00:50:21 ◼   ► for all users of your app combined.

00:50:22 ◼   ► And we don't know if anything is per user or whatever,

00:50:24 ◼   ► but why is it that if you develop an app,

00:50:26 ◼   ► you get to store a pan about it for free?

00:50:28 ◼   ► Where if you wanna store your photos on iCloud,

00:50:30 ◼   ► you have to pay 99 cents to get like 20 gigs

00:50:32 ◼   ► and $3 to get 200 gigs.

00:50:34 ◼   ► - I couldn't agree more.

00:50:35 ◼   ► - The per user, what you get per user,

00:50:37 ◼   ► I don't think we're allowed to say,

00:50:39 ◼   ► but it's pretty small.

00:50:41 ◼   ► I think it's safe to say that.

00:50:43 ◼   ► You'd have to have a lot of users of your app

00:50:46 ◼   ► to hit these limits. - I guess that's their way.

00:50:47 ◼   ► But still, and the bottom line is,

00:50:49 ◼   ► say you make some viral app like Candy Crush

00:50:50 ◼   ► and you store a bunch of crappy content for everybody

00:50:54 ◼   ► and you run into the petabyte,

00:50:55 ◼   ► Apple is storing a petabyte of your data for free.

00:50:58 ◼   ► - Well, Amazon and Microsoft are storing a petabyte.

00:51:01 ◼   ► - It just seems like that the pricing

00:51:03 ◼   ► is still a little bit out of whack.

00:51:04 ◼   ► Like I would rather see Apple try to,

00:51:07 ◼   ► I don't know how to rationalize that.

00:51:09 ◼   ► I don't know how to rationalize their willingness

00:51:10 ◼   ► to do this stuff for free for an app developer

00:51:13 ◼   ► while charging individual users so much more to get,

00:51:17 ◼   ► I mean, I like the new pricing better than the old pricing,

00:51:19 ◼   ► but I still can't decide whether it's something

00:51:22 ◼   ► that fits with their own offering for app developers

00:51:27 ◼   ► or fits with what people are going to be willing to pay for.

00:51:29 ◼   ► Because that's the whole thing with this.

00:51:31 ◼   ► If someone gets a Mac and you're like, oh, you

00:51:33 ◼   ► should totally sign up for iCloud and do this monthly bill,

00:51:35 ◼   ► I'm like, that's going to be a hard sell on people.

00:51:38 ◼   ► And same thing with when you get your iOS device

00:51:40 ◼   ► and you run into the free storage limits.

00:51:42 ◼   ► And you've got to say, oh, well, you have to pay money now.

00:51:45 ◼   ► And it just seems a little bit like a bait and switch.

00:51:47 ◼   ► I would rather have it be more upfront

00:51:48 ◼   ► and have some assurance that this is something

00:51:50 ◼   ► people are gonna do that we're all gonna take advantage of

00:51:53 ◼   ► and that is the price that we're going to deal with

00:51:55 ◼   ► instead of having it creep up on you.

00:51:57 ◼   ► - Yeah, oh and real time follow up quickly,

00:51:59 ◼   ► the limits per user are made public in a public document,

00:52:02 ◼   ► which we'll put in the show notes if I remember too,

00:52:03 ◼   ► which I probably won't because I'm very hungry and tired.

00:52:05 ◼   ► It is 100 megs per user for assets, one meg for database.

00:52:10 ◼   ► And then there's some transfer limits, but yeah.

00:52:12 ◼   ► - So those limits are tiny, but yeah.

00:52:14 ◼   ► So Apple's--

00:52:16 ◼   ► - Like you couldn't build Instagram with that.

00:52:17 ◼   ► Like that would, you would probably hit that.

00:52:19 ◼   ► - You'd have to have like a wildly popular app

00:52:22 ◼   ► that just saves like high scores or some crap like that.

00:52:23 ◼   ► But still, again, Apple's willing, this is like,

00:52:25 ◼   ► go ahead, try to make an app that has 300 million users,

00:52:28 ◼   ► then we will end up storing a petabyte of data for you,

00:52:30 ◼   ► but somehow that's okay with them.

00:52:32 ◼   ► - Right, and I think, you know,

00:52:35 ◼   ► there are limits with CloudKit.

00:52:36 ◼   ► As far as we know, we haven't learned much about it yet,

00:52:39 ◼   ► and I haven't looked at the docs much

00:52:41 ◼   ► 'cause I haven't had time yet,

00:52:42 ◼   ► but as far as we can tell,

00:52:44 ◼   ► this is not gonna let you build a website.

00:52:46 ◼   ► - You can't even run anything server-side,

00:52:48 ◼   ► as far as we know.

00:52:49 ◼   ► - Yeah, it seemed like it's all local,

00:52:51 ◼   ► it's all client-side code that tells the servers

00:52:53 ◼   ► roughly what to do, but it's like, you know,

00:52:56 ◼   ► fetches and stuff, it's like, it doesn't seem like

00:52:58 ◼   ► there's a way, for instance, like for me with Overcast

00:53:00 ◼   ► or like Underscore with Feed Wrangler,

00:53:02 ◼   ► like it doesn't seem like there's a way to like run

00:53:03 ◼   ► persistent crawlers on their servers

00:53:06 ◼   ► and have them notify you when new stuff comes in like that.

00:53:08 ◼   ► - Well, they do have the notification thing.

00:53:10 ◼   ► - But like a client has to pick up that data

00:53:13 ◼   ► or generate that data to tell other clients

00:53:15 ◼   ► that it's available, like your server can't do it.

00:53:18 ◼   ► - Right, exactly.

00:53:19 ◼   ► And so you can't have a web version,

00:53:21 ◼   ► you can't have obviously Windows or Android versions,

00:53:23 ◼   ► so it's still a very limited system,

00:53:26 ◼   ► it's not gonna replace servers for a lot of people,

00:53:28 ◼   ► and it's not like, you're not gonna build

00:53:30 ◼   ► the next Instagram with this,

00:53:31 ◼   ► 'cause the next Instagram is gonna wanna have to work

00:53:33 ◼   ► on Android at some point.

00:53:34 ◼   ► - But it is an improvement, like,

00:53:36 ◼   ► you can take it as a different take

00:53:40 ◼   ► on what Core Data to iCloud.

00:53:42 ◼   ► That's what Core Data is. - Oh, definitely.

00:53:43 ◼   ► - 'Cause now we have to have a schema-less database

00:53:45 ◼   ► with queries that they'll run for you to notify your app,

00:53:48 ◼   ► And that's the bucket you put your thing in.

00:53:50 ◼   ► But it's a different take on iCloud Core Data

00:53:52 ◼   ► in that it's not something that started local and went cloud.

00:53:54 ◼   ► It started cloud the whole time.

00:53:56 ◼   ► It's always in the cloud.

00:53:58 ◼   ► It's very similar things can be done with both of them.

00:54:00 ◼   ► I don't know what the interface is to programming.

00:54:02 ◼   ► Does it make it look like you just have a bunch of objects

00:54:03 ◼   ► and they magically persist?

00:54:05 ◼   ► But again, they say all the right words.

00:54:09 ◼   ► And it seems like this will be a more reliable, easier

00:54:12 ◼   ► to understand, easier to debug way

00:54:14 ◼   ► to do some of the same tasks that people are currently doing

00:54:16 ◼   ► with Core Data and iCloud.

00:54:18 ◼   ► - Exactly.

00:54:19 ◼   ► Our final sponsor this week is our friends,

00:54:22 ◼   ► they're back finally, our friends at Squarespace.

00:54:25 ◼   ► - Hooray!

00:54:25 ◼   ► - Go to squarespace.com/ATP.

00:54:29 ◼   ► Squarespace is the all-in-one platform

00:54:30 ◼   ► that makes it fast and easy, Mike Hurley,

00:54:33 ◼   ► to create your own professional website portfolio

00:54:35 ◼   ► and online store.

00:54:37 ◼   ► For a free trial and 10% off, go to squarespace.com/ATP

00:54:41 ◼   ► and enter offer code ATP at checkout.

00:54:44 ◼   ► A better web starts with your website.

00:54:48 ◼   ► So Squarespace is simple and easy.

00:54:50 ◼   ► They have a beautiful design.

00:54:52 ◼   ► They have many designs for you to choose.

00:54:53 ◼   ► You can customize them if you want.

00:54:55 ◼   ► You can leave them as is.

00:54:56 ◼   ► You can inject HTML, JavaScript, whatever you want,

00:54:59 ◼   ► or you can leave them and use

00:55:00 ◼   ► their nice graphical friendly tools.

00:55:02 ◼   ► You can have mobile designs that match your site.

00:55:05 ◼   ► So your device, excuse me,

00:55:07 ◼   ► you can have responsive mobile designs

00:55:09 ◼   ► so your site looks good on every device every time.

00:55:12 ◼   ► They have 24/7 support.

00:55:14 ◼   ► They have live chat, email,

00:55:16 ◼   ► located in New York City and Dublin.

00:55:18 ◼   ► Now there is a Dublin, Ohio, that's a very boring place.

00:55:21 ◼   ► I've been there a lot.

00:55:22 ◼   ► I'm pretty sure they mean the one in Ireland for this one,

00:55:24 ◼   ► so that's pretty cool.

00:55:25 ◼   ► It's way better, the one in Ireland, trust me.

00:55:26 ◼   ► Sorry Dublin, Ohio, you just can't do it, sorry.

00:55:30 ◼   ► Plans start at just $8 a month.

00:55:32 ◼   ► That includes a free domain name

00:55:33 ◼   ► if you sign up for a whole year up front.

00:55:35 ◼   ► So go to squarespace.com/atp.

00:55:39 ◼   ► You can even, I forgot to mention,

00:55:40 ◼   ► you can even build your online store.

00:55:42 ◼   ► They have Squarespace Commerce, really, really great.

00:55:44 ◼   ► They start a free trial with no credit card required.

00:55:47 ◼   ► start building your website today.

00:55:50 ◼   ► When you decide to sign up,

00:55:51 ◼   ► don't forget to use our offer code ATP

00:55:53 ◼   ► to get 10% off your first purchase

00:55:56 ◼   ► and to show your support for our show.

00:55:57 ◼   ► Thank you very much to Squarespace

00:55:59 ◼   ► for sponsoring our show once again.

00:56:01 ◼   ► - So I have a couple questions about iOS

00:56:02 ◼   ► and then I think we should talk about Swift before we wrap.

00:56:06 ◼   ► Firstly, we don't really know anything

00:56:10 ◼   ► about identification, authentication,

00:56:12 ◼   ► that sort of thing with regard to CloudKit, right?

00:56:15 ◼   ► Because it would be really neat,

00:56:17 ◼   ► even if I didn't use barely anything else

00:56:21 ◼   ► with relation to iCloud,

00:56:22 ◼   ► like say I'm Marco and I'm writing Overcast,

00:56:24 ◼   ► it would ostensibly be really great

00:56:26 ◼   ► to get the accounts system out of CloudKit,

00:56:31 ◼   ► but do everything else myself.

00:56:33 ◼   ► Just get a token from CloudKit

00:56:35 ◼   ► to identify who this person is,

00:56:37 ◼   ► and then everything else I take care of on my own.

00:56:39 ◼   ► We don't know that, right?

00:56:40 ◼   ► - Couldn't you do that already,

00:56:41 ◼   ► if you wanted to, through iCloud?

00:56:42 ◼   ► I guess you just sort of make yourself

00:56:44 ◼   ► a little vestigial iCloud document container

00:56:46 ◼   ► that you never use.

00:56:47 ◼   ► - I guess you could.

00:56:48 ◼   ► - Well, what you could do is you could just generate

00:56:51 ◼   ► like a random key, or you know, generate a random ID

00:56:54 ◼   ► and store it in key value storage

00:56:56 ◼   ► and then you could read that later.

00:56:58 ◼   ► But then, you know, when you base your authentication

00:57:01 ◼   ► on iCloud, you get this big benefit of,

00:57:04 ◼   ► they're already logged into this thing.

00:57:06 ◼   ► But it also comes with a lot of weird little downsides

00:57:08 ◼   ► and complexities that a lot of people don't--

00:57:10 ◼   ► - If they sign out of iCloud, then you have to like,

00:57:13 ◼   ► put their stuff off to the side in case they sign back

00:57:15 ◼   ► into it to restore it for them, and yeah.

00:57:17 ◼   ► - Right, so there's a number of weirdnesses with that.

00:57:19 ◼   ► Now the good thing is, something else

00:57:21 ◼   ► that's totally unrelated to this that they announced

00:57:24 ◼   ► is the family sharing, which--

00:57:25 ◼   ► - Oh, thank God.

00:57:26 ◼   ► - Yeah, I think, so family sharing,

00:57:28 ◼   ► you can have up to like six people,

00:57:31 ◼   ► if you all have the same credit card,

00:57:33 ◼   ► which is a good limitation to prevent weird fraud issues,

00:57:36 ◼   ► you can have up to six people have basically

00:57:37 ◼   ► pooled purchases for all the iTunes media

00:57:41 ◼   ► as well as apps and in-app purchases,

00:57:42 ◼   ► which is awesome because I think this will

00:57:45 ◼   ► dramatically cut down on people who need to keep signing in and out of different Apple

00:57:48 ◼   ► IDs because they have one ID that purchases everything that they share with their wife

00:57:52 ◼   ► or their kids or whatever. I think this is going to really help that anyway. So that's

00:57:56 ◼   ► besides the point.

00:57:57 ◼   ► If you use iCloud as your authentication mechanism, you're tied to that. Sometimes that isn't

00:58:03 ◼   ► what users expect. So if someone's signing into different iCloud accounts and they launch

00:58:09 ◼   ► your podcast app and all of a sudden everything's gone because they signed into a different

00:58:13 ◼   ► to download a movie and they forgot about that

00:58:15 ◼   ► and they launch your app and your app has no idea

00:58:18 ◼   ► who they are or where all the stuff is.

00:58:19 ◼   ► - Apple's always been pretty good about giving you

00:58:21 ◼   ► a different Apple ID for each of the individual apps.

00:58:24 ◼   ► Like I've learned that setting up old devices for my kids

00:58:26 ◼   ► and I'm surprised at the number of places

00:58:28 ◼   ► I have to go hunt down my Apple ID and remove them

00:58:30 ◼   ► and put in a different Apple ID.

00:58:32 ◼   ► Oh, I forgot that iMessage is still signed in as me.

00:58:35 ◼   ► Oh, I forgot that the app store was signed in as me.

00:58:38 ◼   ► They're pretty good about spreading it around

00:58:41 ◼   ► but the big thing with the families is

00:58:43 ◼   ► I mean, they haven't really finished this job, they've just started this job, but it's

00:58:47 ◼   ► acknowledging, I tweeted during the thing, acknowledging the existence of families.

00:58:51 ◼   ► It's acknowledging how regular people use their products, that we exist in families,

00:58:55 ◼   ► that kids might have their own devices, that they get to hand me their own devices, that

00:58:59 ◼   ► we don't want to buy the app multiple times.

00:59:03 ◼   ► One of the other acknowledgements is that in general the family has a family collection

00:59:06 ◼   ► of photos, whereas individual kids might have individual collection of photos, but like,

00:59:10 ◼   ► you don't want to, "Oh, I've got to go on my wife's computer because that's the photo

00:59:12 ◼   ► computer that's where all our photos are like they haven't gotten that point yet

00:59:14 ◼   ► so then the no I life is an island type of thing but at the very least they

00:59:18 ◼   ► acknowledge your kids want to buy stuff you don't want them to be able to sign

00:59:22 ◼   ► in so now you get a notification on your device that says so-and-so wants to buy

00:59:26 ◼   ► something approve or reject like that's what happens in real life anyway and so

00:59:30 ◼   ► they're building into the OS you know electronically which is you know they

00:59:34 ◼   ► must all have iOS devices in their family and it's taken this long to

00:59:37 ◼   ► create a product that acknowledges how everybody knows everybody's using these

00:59:41 ◼   ► products to begin with.

00:59:42 ◼   ► - Yup.

00:59:43 ◼   ► Yeah, and I mean this is just one of those things,

00:59:44 ◼   ► like the amount of crap they unveiled today,

00:59:47 ◼   ► it's, you know, like I said two weeks ago or last week

00:59:50 ◼   ► that Apple lacked server-side hustle.

00:59:53 ◼   ► And-- - Oh, that's a good point.

00:59:55 ◼   ► - And I think that's probably still the case in general

00:59:58 ◼   ► with their online services, but I think this shows

01:00:00 ◼   ► where all the hustle's been spent.

01:00:03 ◼   ► - I think you picked an unfortunate word,

01:00:05 ◼   ► because all I can think about is the kid who's like

01:00:08 ◼   ► running with a football or trying to go somewhere for a pass and doesn't get there in time,

01:00:14 ◼   ► but the coach says, "All right, all right, good hustle, good hustle."

01:00:16 ◼   ► But it's like, he didn't make it there.

01:00:18 ◼   ► But good hustle, son.

01:00:19 ◼   ► And sure, yeah, they are showing hustle.

01:00:21 ◼   ► I just don't know if they're the kid who wasn't fast enough and the coach just wants to sound

01:00:25 ◼   ► encouraging anyway.

01:00:26 ◼   ► We want to see them catch the touchdown pass, not just to say, "Good hustle, son."

01:00:32 ◼   ► And it seems like server and service side stuff, they are still keeping pretty limited,

01:00:37 ◼   ► But I think they're doing, like what we see today,

01:00:40 ◼   ► or what we saw today is that they're doing a lot more,

01:00:42 ◼   ► like the whole iCloud Dropbox copy thing,

01:00:45 ◼   ► I did not expect that at all.

01:00:47 ◼   ► Like that was like a line I didn't think

01:00:49 ◼   ► they would ever cross with iCloud.

01:00:50 ◼   ► And it solves a lot of problems that we've talked about

01:00:52 ◼   ► with iCloud, things like the file siloing

01:00:55 ◼   ► and document siloing and how the heck you address that.

01:00:58 ◼   ► - When they first showed it, the silos are right there.

01:01:00 ◼   ► Look, there's a folder called Keynote.

01:01:02 ◼   ► That's the Keynote silo.

01:01:03 ◼   ► And look, there's a folder called Pages.

01:01:04 ◼   ► That's the Pages silo.

01:01:05 ◼   ► I mean, the unification of those apps across

01:01:07 ◼   ► of the unification of iWork makes

01:01:08 ◼   ► them be able to have those silos in both places,

01:01:10 ◼   ► because otherwise it wouldn't make any sense.

01:01:11 ◼   ► You'd have iOS pages versus whatever, right?

01:01:14 ◼   ► The silos are still all there.

01:01:15 ◼   ► The whole idea is that if you just

01:01:16 ◼   ► want to be siloed like you are now, it's fine.

01:01:18 ◼   ► But there's other way you can look at things.

01:01:20 ◼   ► And the question is, when I look at that,

01:01:22 ◼   ► when I look at iCloud and it sees keynote and pages

01:01:24 ◼   ► or whatever, can I make my own folders alongside them?

01:01:26 ◼   ► Yes, you can.

01:01:27 ◼   ► And like, well, who's sandbox is that in?

01:01:29 ◼   ► Is that in the keynote sandbox?

01:01:31 ◼   ► Is that in the whatever sandbox?

01:01:32 ◼   ► And the answer is, no, it's not in the keynote.

01:01:34 ◼   ► Document container is over there.

01:01:36 ◼   ► Pages document container over there,

01:01:37 ◼   ► but within Pages on iOS, you can hit the little whatever

01:01:40 ◼   ► that brings up the iOS equivalent

01:01:41 ◼   ► of the open save dialog box,

01:01:43 ◼   ► and go to someplace else that's not in your document

01:01:45 ◼   ► container and get a document,

01:01:47 ◼   ► like the folder that you made called garage sale,

01:01:49 ◼   ► that's gonna be your project for all your crap

01:01:50 ◼   ► for the garage sale.

01:01:51 ◼   ► - Yeah.

01:01:52 ◼   ► - And so, like I said, having that cake and eat it too,

01:01:55 ◼   ► if you wanna work the old way,

01:01:57 ◼   ► it still works 100% the old way.

01:01:59 ◼   ► If you wanna work the new way,

01:02:01 ◼   ► you can just pretend that old way didn't exist

01:02:02 ◼   ► and just make a bunch of folders at the top level

01:02:04 ◼   ► and never look in your document container.

01:02:05 ◼   ► It's all from the little extension of the sandbox,

01:02:08 ◼   ► reaching out into this other world

01:02:09 ◼   ► and allowing you to access these files.

01:02:11 ◼   ► - Yeah, I should point out,

01:02:12 ◼   ► I do not like the look of that quote unquote

01:02:14 ◼   ► open save dialogue.

01:02:15 ◼   ► I think it looks like--

01:02:16 ◼   ► - They never showed ListView,

01:02:17 ◼   ► so I don't know what it looks like, ListView.

01:02:18 ◼   ► - Fair point.

01:02:19 ◼   ► - Yeah, it might be reasonable.

01:02:20 ◼   ► - Yeah, the other thing I wanted to talk about

01:02:21 ◼   ► really quickly about iOS,

01:02:22 ◼   ► and maybe you guys have some other stuff too,

01:02:24 ◼   ► but the leaving and muting of group messages is wonderful.

01:02:29 ◼   ► - Again, an acknowledgement of how people,

01:02:32 ◼   ► is there a larger concentration of people

01:02:34 ◼   ► who use iPhones and iOS devices than Apple employees,

01:02:36 ◼   ► they must all know what it's like to have the friends

01:02:39 ◼   ► with the green bubble so you can't talk about,

01:02:40 ◼   ► to not be able to leave the group chats,

01:02:42 ◼   ► to have, again, with the messages with the keep button.

01:02:45 ◼   ► Acknowledging that you have the wrong default.

01:02:48 ◼   ► Like you thought the default would be keep everything

01:02:50 ◼   ► and let people individually delete,

01:02:51 ◼   ► and it turns out that the right default is delete everything

01:02:53 ◼   ► and let people individually keep.

01:02:55 ◼   ► - Yeah, and I'm just so excited.

01:02:57 ◼   ► I'm excited that you can leave a conversation,

01:02:59 ◼   ► although it was never made clear to me

01:03:01 ◼   ► that this is SMS and iMessage.

01:03:04 ◼   ► Like, maybe this is just iMessage.

01:03:05 ◼   ► That's still unclear.

01:03:06 ◼   ► Right.

01:03:07 ◼   ► Yeah.

01:03:08 ◼   ► But not only can you leave a conversation, but you can also mute a conversation.

01:03:11 ◼   ► I think they called it a different term, but in effect, you don't get buzzes in your pocket

01:03:17 ◼   ► and so on, but nevertheless, you'll still receive the messages.

01:03:21 ◼   ► It should be SMS too, because they'll just ignore, like it's a software thing.

01:03:23 ◼   ► You'll still be getting the SMSes, they're just not, you know, you could do it all client

01:03:27 ◼   ► side essentially.

01:03:28 ◼   ► Oh, I completely agree with you, but it was never made clear, and so I don't want to count

01:03:31 ◼   ► my chickens before they hatch.

01:03:32 ◼   ► But I'm extremely, extremely excited about that because I get on these group messages

01:03:37 ◼   ► and it's like one or two people I know and then like ten random phone numbers and of

01:03:41 ◼   ► course nobody's courteous enough to just reply to the author individually.

01:03:46 ◼   ► And then I'm on these damn conversations that last two days, often at odd hours in the morning,

01:03:50 ◼   ► and it's just the most frustrating thing in the world.

01:03:52 ◼   ► So I'm really excited about that.

01:03:54 ◼   ► Anything else about iOS that you guys have?

01:03:55 ◼   ► Well, I think they did everything that we ever wanted for iOS except for—that we talked

01:03:59 ◼   ► about previously—except for letting you pick a different default app.

01:04:02 ◼   ► They did widgets on the lock screen.

01:04:05 ◼   ► They didn't do widgets on the home screen.

01:04:06 ◼   ► They did widgets on the lock screen.

01:04:08 ◼   ► Being able to share documents between applications

01:04:11 ◼   ► for interactive communication, they just didn't do,

01:04:13 ◼   ► hey, I want to use Chrome as my default browser.

01:04:15 ◼   ► I don't want to use Apple Mail as my default mail.

01:04:17 ◼   ► - And that was, I mean, wishing for that

01:04:18 ◼   ► has always been a stretch.

01:04:19 ◼   ► They might still do it someday, but that's--

01:04:21 ◼   ► - I think that is exactly, I think third-party keyboards

01:04:23 ◼   ► is even more of a stretch.

01:04:24 ◼   ► Like, that is exactly in the ballpark

01:04:26 ◼   ► of the things they did.

01:04:27 ◼   ► Like, they did things that are as radical

01:04:30 ◼   ► as letting you change your default app, I feel like.

01:04:31 ◼   ► - Oh yeah, and the entire extension system

01:04:35 ◼   ► is just shockingly robust and just changes everything.

01:04:40 ◼   ► I mean, it's gonna take us,

01:04:44 ◼   ► I was talking to Underscore about this earlier,

01:04:45 ◼   ► I think all of a sudden now,

01:04:48 ◼   ► for all of iOS's history,

01:04:50 ◼   ► for a lot of listeners of this show,

01:04:51 ◼   ► certainly for me,

01:04:53 ◼   ► people who have been working on iOS apps

01:04:55 ◼   ► all this time so far,

01:04:57 ◼   ► there has been these entire categories of apps

01:05:00 ◼   ► that were impossible or impractical to make on iOS.

01:05:04 ◼   ► Entire capabilities that we lacked,

01:05:07 ◼   ► that we couldn't do well.

01:05:08 ◼   ► Stupid hacks, like for Instapaper,

01:05:10 ◼   ► having to make the stupid bookmarklet.

01:05:12 ◼   ► Stupid hacks like that.

01:05:14 ◼   ► The entire URL scheme thing that we've been hacking around

01:05:17 ◼   ► now, so many of these things are totally obsolete now

01:05:21 ◼   ► with the new extension system.

01:05:23 ◼   ► So not only do we have all these existing things

01:05:26 ◼   ► we've been doing that will now be able to be a lot better

01:05:29 ◼   ► and a lot more robust, but there's entire classes of apps

01:05:34 ◼   ► that have never been possible to make before

01:05:37 ◼   ► that are now possible, or entire classes of activities

01:05:40 ◼   ► that before you could do, but it was so clunky

01:05:42 ◼   ► it would never really take off and would never really be

01:05:44 ◼   ► that much of a good product.

01:05:45 ◼   ► Now those things can be native and can be good.

01:05:47 ◼   ► And it's gonna take, I would say, at least a year

01:05:51 ◼   ► for many of us who have been doing this for a while

01:05:56 ◼   ► to forget that we can't do these things.

01:05:59 ◼   ► It's like, 'cause now we have so many new capabilities

01:06:01 ◼   ► that all came at once in addition to this whole new language

01:06:03 ◼   ► that we have to learn, which we'll get to.

01:06:04 ◼   ► Like, we have all these new things that we can now do.

01:06:06 ◼   ► Like, it's gonna take a while for us to finally

01:06:09 ◼   ► internalize these things so that we can start realizing,

01:06:11 ◼   ► wait a minute, we can do X, Y, and Z.

01:06:13 ◼   ► Like, oh man, this would be a great idea for an app

01:06:15 ◼   ► or this would be a great enhancement to our existing app.

01:06:18 ◼   ► Now we can do this.

01:06:19 ◼   ► Like, it's, that list is so long of what you can now do

01:06:22 ◼   ► that this is just, it's gonna be ridiculously good for us,

01:06:27 ◼   ► I think, long term, and it's gonna take a while

01:06:28 ◼   ► to see the full effects.

01:06:29 ◼   ► And they did the obvious implementation.

01:06:31 ◼   ► Like, I remember when we were talking about, oh,

01:06:32 ◼   ► what if they let you do an activity sheet thing where

01:06:34 ◼   ► you can have your thing like add to Instapaper, add to Pinterest.

01:06:37 ◼   ► And like, well, if they do that, then every dog and his brother

01:06:39 ◼   ► is going to have a little stupid icon in the thing.

01:06:41 ◼   ► So they'll need some kind of preference for you

01:06:42 ◼   ► to turn them on and off.

01:06:43 ◼   ► And with the simplicity of iOS, notification center

01:06:47 ◼   ► was the first thing that showed they're not

01:06:49 ◼   ► afraid to give you a wall of checkboxes or switches in iOS.

01:06:52 ◼   ► And so they do that.

01:06:53 ◼   ► Like, the obvious implementation is

01:06:54 ◼   ► you register that you're able to hand you a rail,

01:06:56 ◼   ► you let the user have a gigantic wall of on/off switches

01:06:58 ◼   ► to tell which ones they want to see.

01:07:00 ◼   ► Done and done.

01:07:01 ◼   ► That's what we were all saying.

01:07:02 ◼   ► You're like, oh, you can't do that.

01:07:03 ◼   ► And it's just like, no, they can.

01:07:05 ◼   ► And the great thing about Apple doing it is like,

01:07:07 ◼   ► the ecosystem they're creating now

01:07:09 ◼   ► is not just like one app vendor manages to do something

01:07:11 ◼   ► within their like, oh, my three apps cooperate.

01:07:13 ◼   ► All the apps are gonna be able to cooperate.

01:07:15 ◼   ► So you are going to be able to reap the benefits

01:07:17 ◼   ► or latch onto and enhance some other app

01:07:20 ◼   ► because if you can work on the same data

01:07:22 ◼   ► and integrate with each other,

01:07:24 ◼   ► you don't need third parties to cooperate with each other

01:07:27 ◼   ► outside the realm of the store.

01:07:28 ◼   ► App developers that never knew each other,

01:07:31 ◼   ► the user can now use their apps to work together

01:07:33 ◼   ► on a single thing.

01:07:34 ◼   ► And that's what it's been like on the Mac always,

01:07:36 ◼   ► but now it'll be like that on iOS.

01:07:37 ◼   ► - Yeah, it's really impressive.

01:07:38 ◼   ► And I feel like we're seeing a whole new,

01:07:41 ◼   ► I don't know if progressive is the right word,

01:07:44 ◼   ► but a whole new progressive Apple

01:07:45 ◼   ► that's willing to do the things

01:07:47 ◼   ► that we never thought they would be willing to do.

01:07:50 ◼   ► And I'm really excited about it.

01:07:51 ◼   ► Now granted, I'm always amped up and really excited

01:07:54 ◼   ► and jazzed after the keynote and so on,

01:07:56 ◼   ► But I feel more excited today about not only what they've announced, but what we can imagine

01:08:04 ◼   ► in the future.

01:08:05 ◼   ► Because all of these impenetrable doors that have been triple locked and cement sealed

01:08:10 ◼   ► and welded shut, a few of them were blown open today.

01:08:14 ◼   ► And so if they're willing to do a new keyboard, gosh knows what they're going to be willing

01:08:17 ◼   ► to do in the future.

01:08:18 ◼   ► And so I'm really, really excited.

01:08:20 ◼   ► It's almost like they came out with a new...

01:08:22 ◼   ► Oh wait, they did come out with a new language today, didn't they, Jon?

01:08:26 ◼   ► But I think a lot of this is decision changes at Apple,

01:08:31 ◼   ► possibly it's leadership changes.

01:08:32 ◼   ► But I think what Jon said earlier is very correct,

01:08:34 ◼   ► where it's like they were able to do all this stuff

01:08:36 ◼   ► because of both hardware advances with now the ability

01:08:39 ◼   ► to have more things in memory at once,

01:08:41 ◼   ► and also all the security features that they've added.

01:08:45 ◼   ► That they've--

01:08:45 ◼   ► - They had to build the infrastructure

01:08:47 ◼   ► to enable these features.

01:08:49 ◼   ► - Like many of these features,

01:08:50 ◼   ► now that they're doing them,

01:08:53 ◼   ► and the way they're doing them now,

01:08:55 ◼   ► many of them have no downside.

01:08:57 ◼   ► Like there's no cost to doing this now.

01:08:59 ◼   ► There was always a good reason not to before,

01:09:02 ◼   ► but once you have the infrastructure

01:09:04 ◼   ► and once the hardware is caught up enough

01:09:07 ◼   ► to allow a lot of these things,

01:09:09 ◼   ► like they didn't give us home screen widgets on Springboard

01:09:12 ◼   ► because the home screen's always showing.

01:09:14 ◼   ► But when you pull in the notification center,

01:09:16 ◼   ► now they can intelligently refresh those

01:09:19 ◼   ► only when you pull in notification center.

01:09:21 ◼   ► A lot of people never pull in a notification center,

01:09:23 ◼   ► so they never have to update them.

01:09:24 ◼   ► Like there's all sorts of optimizations they can do,

01:09:27 ◼   ► all sorts of just restrictions and limits

01:09:29 ◼   ► on where they're choosing to do these things

01:09:31 ◼   ► and how they're choosing to do these things,

01:09:33 ◼   ► make them possible and make them come with low or no cost

01:09:37 ◼   ► overall to the experience.

01:09:37 ◼   ► - That's part of Apple's secrecy thing is that,

01:09:40 ◼   ► it's obvious now in hindsight how they were laying

01:09:42 ◼   ► the groundwork for all these things.

01:09:44 ◼   ► They're laying the groundwork by allowing technology

01:09:45 ◼   ► to advance, by the hardware getting better,

01:09:47 ◼   ► but also building all the APIs, enhancing them

01:09:49 ◼   ► so that they're able to deliver this.

01:09:50 ◼   ► And you could say, oh, this was the grand plan all along,

01:09:53 ◼   ► three years ago when we were complaining about this stuff,

01:09:55 ◼   ► it's just Apple couldn't say it was a secret

01:09:56 ◼   ► they were doing this.

01:09:57 ◼   ► And we don't know whether that's the case or not,

01:09:59 ◼   ► but it seems like from the outside

01:10:01 ◼   ► that their priorities haven't changed.

01:10:04 ◼   ► Every time we've gotten a new feature,

01:10:05 ◼   ► it's been like now within the bounds of the priorities

01:10:08 ◼   ► we set out for iOS in terms of safety and responsiveness,

01:10:11 ◼   ► we are now able to deliver this feature

01:10:13 ◼   ► that you've wanted a long time.

01:10:14 ◼   ► And it's like, aha, Apple has changed direction.

01:10:17 ◼   ► They've simply stuck to their priorities and waited,

01:10:19 ◼   ► not just waited in terms of the hardware,

01:10:21 ◼   ► but also said, "If we're going to ever do this, let's figure out the steps we would

01:10:25 ◼   ► have to take."

01:10:26 ◼   ► And over a series of iOS releases, they lay the groundwork slowly, slowly, and then now

01:10:30 ◼   ► finally they can come out.

01:10:31 ◼   ► And in iOS 8, it seems like a whole bunch of those things came to a head at the same

01:10:35 ◼   ► time.

01:10:36 ◼   ► Like, finally they had the infrastructure to do all of these things, and they did all

01:10:40 ◼   ► of them.

01:10:41 ◼   ► Yeah, it's been really impressive.

01:10:43 ◼   ► So, we should talk about this new language.

01:10:46 ◼   ► Jon, what do you think?

01:10:48 ◼   ► I don't know.

01:10:50 ◼   ► I feel vindicated in some ways, because if you think about the Copeland 2010 thing, and

01:10:58 ◼   ► 2010 came and went and nothing happened.

01:11:01 ◼   ► One was revisited.

01:11:02 ◼   ► Was that 2012?

01:11:03 ◼   ► 2010 was when I revisited.

01:11:04 ◼   ► Oh, right, right, right, right.

01:11:05 ◼   ► Because you would have written the original in like 2003 or something like that.

01:11:09 ◼   ► 2003?

01:11:10 ◼   ► 2005.

01:11:11 ◼   ► Or 2005, as you say.

01:11:14 ◼   ► Where's Jason when we need him?

01:11:16 ◼   ► How many numbers are there?

01:11:17 ◼   ► Anyway.

01:11:18 ◼   ► John is right.

01:11:19 ◼   ► is right. The whole debate, you know, amongst us on the outside of Apple is about like,

01:11:28 ◼   ► why do you think they need a new language and runtime? Why can't they just use Objective-C

01:11:31 ◼   ► and continue to enhance it? And what Apple came out with was not a continued enhancement

01:11:38 ◼   ► of Objective-C, it was a new language. Unequivocally, a new language. It looks different, it's got

01:11:43 ◼   ► a different name.

01:11:46 ◼   ► The only thing they haven't changed is the API seems to be under the covers, the same

01:11:50 ◼   ► API, but the way you use it is different because there are so many language features that essentially

01:11:55 ◼   ► convert to a big whole mess of Objective-C code.

01:12:00 ◼   ► So they're sort of getting a new API without getting a new API, which is very clever.

01:12:05 ◼   ► They're not saying, "Oh, this language is so different, we are going to need all new

01:12:08 ◼   ► APIs, all new function names, all new arguments," or whatever.

01:12:11 ◼   ► They said, "Here's this compact way to say something that essentially is this big, long

01:12:16 ◼   ► block of -- not block, but you know, this big wad of Objective-C code.

01:12:20 ◼   ► You don't have to write that big wad anymore.

01:12:22 ◼   ► All of that intent is expressed in this thing, and it's not a new API."

01:12:26 ◼   ► And that, I think, is very clever.

01:12:28 ◼   ► Now, I haven't had time to look at the language itself.

01:12:32 ◼   ► It looks a lot like a language written by people who like C and C++ and Objective-C.

01:12:38 ◼   ► I'm not necessarily one of those people, but for people, it should be familiar to them.

01:12:42 ◼   ► I heard Joel Spolsky say on Twitter that it looked a lot like Go, and his comparison was

01:12:47 ◼   ► C# is to Java as Swift is to Go.

01:12:51 ◼   ► And again, not having looked at it very long, that seems vaguely apt.

01:12:56 ◼   ► But the bottom line is they have a new language.

01:13:00 ◼   ► They're committing to it going forward.

01:13:02 ◼   ► It builds on everything they've done before.

01:13:04 ◼   ► Builds on LLVM, it builds on their whole compiler infrastructure, builds on their IDE.

01:13:08 ◼   ► On Arc.

01:13:09 ◼   ► Yeah, on Arc.

01:13:10 ◼   ► And you know, it is the compromise you talked about, Objective-C without the C, which was

01:13:14 ◼   ► actually on a slide.

01:13:15 ◼   ► The actual phrase, "it's not Objective-C without the C," I couldn't even friggin'

01:13:17 ◼   ► believe it.

01:13:18 ◼   ► I was trying to remember who originally came up with that phrase on the web.

01:13:21 ◼   ► It wasn't me.

01:13:22 ◼   ► But it was in the discussion, like, why don't they just keep shaving the edges off Objective-C?

01:13:25 ◼   ► Like, it's Objective-C, but you won't need pointers.

01:13:27 ◼   ► Like, Swift doesn't have the friggin' stars.

01:13:30 ◼   ► You can mix it with Objective-C code, there are pointers behind the scenes, but you don't

01:13:33 ◼   ► have access, you have to dereference them and start doing random crap, and this is their

01:13:37 ◼   ► Unsafe code mixed with safe code, but the safe code is so very clearly safe

01:13:41 ◼   ► And it's super fast because under the covers it's compiling down to

01:13:45 ◼   ► You know LVM intermediary code which gets optimized. I mean you know it's the same. It's calling the same API's

01:13:52 ◼   ► Someone was asking when they get the RC for benchmark like look how much faster Swift is at RC for benchmark that objective C

01:13:58 ◼   ► How could objective C be so slow?

01:14:01 ◼   ► And doing this RC for benchmark

01:14:04 ◼   ► What is it about Swift that makes it faster? I mean people would say okay, so fine. So Swift is just as fast good

01:14:09 ◼   ► How can how can Swift be faster? I don't know the answer to that having just come out of the keynote, but my guess is that

01:14:13 ◼   ► Swift lets you

01:14:16 ◼   ► Express what you want to do in a way that doesn't have all the baggage of C and C++

01:14:20 ◼   ► And all those other languages because they have to be so cautious about well I can do this optimization

01:14:26 ◼   ► But what if the thing that I call actually writes to this memory address exactly and Swift can say I?

01:14:31 ◼   ► I tell you that's not going to happen,

01:14:32 ◼   ► because they have no way to get at that.

01:14:34 ◼   ► There's no way for them to dereference something

01:14:35 ◼   ► and go scribble over the section of it.

01:14:37 ◼   ► Like, trust me, it's going to be the same.

01:14:40 ◼   ► What was that?

01:14:41 ◼   ► Anyway.

01:14:42 ◼   ► We're back.

01:14:42 ◼   ► Trust me, it's going to be safe to do this optimization,

01:14:45 ◼   ► because the program has expressed its intent.

01:14:47 ◼   ► And we don't have to worry about all these cases in a C and C++

01:14:50 ◼   ► compiler that are unsafe, that the compiler cannot make strong

01:14:54 ◼   ► guarantees about-- it has to do with the cautious thing.

01:14:57 ◼   ► Now, I don't know if that's why the RC4 benchmark is faster,

01:15:00 ◼   ► But that's what I've always been talking about,

01:15:02 ◼   ► is about what can you do with a new language?

01:15:04 ◼   ► It's not just syntactic sugar.

01:15:06 ◼   ► It's because you can allow the pro-order

01:15:08 ◼   ► to express their intent without having

01:15:10 ◼   ► all these details of the implementation of a memory

01:15:12 ◼   ► unsafe language that the runtime and compiling system

01:15:14 ◼   ► has to worry about.

01:15:15 ◼   ► Yeah, I think you're exactly right.

01:15:17 ◼   ► The performance gains don't make a lot of sense otherwise.

01:15:20 ◼   ► But it has to be about optimizations and all

01:15:24 ◼   ► the assumptions that the compiler can make.

01:15:26 ◼   ► And optimizing compilers are so advanced these days.

01:15:29 ◼   ► And the more information you can give them

01:15:32 ◼   ► about what they need to do and what they don't need to do,

01:15:34 ◼   ► the better optimized code they can generate.

01:15:36 ◼   ► It makes a huge difference.

01:15:37 ◼   ► - I think there was a big presentation

01:15:39 ◼   ► by someone on the LLVM thing,

01:15:40 ◼   ► it might have been Chris Ladd or somebody else,

01:15:41 ◼   ► that was going through undefined behavior

01:15:43 ◼   ► according to the C specification.

01:15:44 ◼   ► C specification says if you do X or Y,

01:15:46 ◼   ► it's undefined behavior.

01:15:47 ◼   ► And there are so many cases that it comes up

01:15:49 ◼   ► and it ties, they're rigging LLVM and the optimizer

01:15:52 ◼   ► and the code generator, it ties their hands.

01:15:54 ◼   ► It's like, boy, we would love to do this optimization,

01:15:57 ◼   ► But according to the C-Spec, it's not safe for us to do it.

01:16:01 ◼   ► And so they would just be sitting there just waiting to unleash these optimizations.

01:16:04 ◼   ► And with Swift, they can define a language that is not impaired in that way, that doesn't

01:16:08 ◼   ► have all these edge cases and say, "Now, finally, we can pull out all this optimization."

01:16:12 ◼   ► It is safe to do this, guaranteed.

01:16:14 ◼   ► Do it and make your code faster.

01:16:15 ◼   ► Yeah, the other thing that was really impressive about Swift, which comes back to what you

01:16:19 ◼   ► were saying earlier about constant priorities, is the protections around doing something

01:16:25 ◼   ► stupid.

01:16:26 ◼   ► being overrunning an array. So if this array is 20 items and you ask for item

01:16:31 ◼   ► 25, it's gonna catch that and not let you do something either stupid or dangerous.

01:16:35 ◼   ► And it's gonna probably fail dramatically, but that's a much better

01:16:39 ◼   ► approach than just letting you run amok in memory that really doesn't belong to

01:16:43 ◼   ► you. And that's just one example of many different protections they've made in

01:16:47 ◼   ► order to prevent something like the Heartbleed book. Yeah, they didn't want to

01:16:51 ◼   ► give up anything. So like compile time, static analysis, strong typing, like you

01:16:55 ◼   ► So we can catch that, you know, if there was an array out of bounds error, they would catch

01:16:59 ◼   ► that at compile time if they could, you know, if it wasn't a runtime value being put in

01:17:02 ◼   ► there because they didn't give up any of the typing stuff.

01:17:03 ◼   ► Like I saw this tweet that I didn't read it myself, but someone was saying in the Swift

01:17:07 ◼   ► book that Apple put out on the iBook store, which you can go get for free right now, it

01:17:10 ◼   ► was saying, Swift is designed to be a language that you can use to write everything from

01:17:14 ◼   ► operating systems up to applications.

01:17:16 ◼   ► Like a single language that it's not like, oh, well, you just use this to make your fancy

01:17:19 ◼   ► GUI apps.

01:17:20 ◼   ► When you write the OS, you have to do it in C. It seems like Apple is saying, we can be

01:17:24 ◼   ► Swift from top to bottom. Everything we make, all the software we make as Apple from the

01:17:28 ◼   ► operating system itself all the way up to all of our GUI applications in theory could

01:17:31 ◼   ► be written in Swift because that's how it's designed. It's designed to be as efficient

01:17:35 ◼   ► as the low-level languages, but even more pleasant to use than Objective-C was. And

01:17:39 ◼   ► that is an ambitious goal, and I applaud them for it. I'm not sure they've achieved it

01:17:42 ◼   ► yet because I haven't read enough about the language, but I mean, what more can you

01:17:46 ◼   ► ask? New language, you know, from top to bottom, fully committed.

01:17:51 ◼   ► - Yeah, I mean, it always seems,

01:17:53 ◼   ► like this is one of the reasons why

01:17:54 ◼   ► I don't learn new languages very often,

01:17:55 ◼   ► much to your chagrin.

01:17:57 ◼   ► It always seems like a waste of technology

01:18:01 ◼   ► and resources and effort to have these languages

01:18:04 ◼   ► that have great feature X, Y, and Z,

01:18:08 ◼   ► and then oh, but it doesn't run on Linux,

01:18:10 ◼   ► or you can't use it to build GUIs,

01:18:12 ◼   ► or like there's all these limitations

01:18:14 ◼   ► that's like it's not really the fault of the language,

01:18:16 ◼   ► it's more of a library issue usually,

01:18:18 ◼   ► or an implementation or VM issue or something like that.

01:18:20 ◼   ► You know, and it just seems like a waste to have,

01:18:24 ◼   ► you know, to become an expert in a language

01:18:26 ◼   ► that you then can't use for X, Y, or Z.

01:18:28 ◼   ► Like, you know, at least from my point of view

01:18:30 ◼   ► of not wanting to learn new languages very often.

01:18:32 ◼   ► But, like this is the kind of thing, like looking at this,

01:18:35 ◼   ► obviously yes, I'm going to learn this because I think,

01:18:37 ◼   ► I think every Objective-C programmer today

01:18:40 ◼   ► should start learning Swift as soon as they can

01:18:42 ◼   ► because it's-- - Absolutely.

01:18:43 ◼   ► - You know, it's not gonna, it's not like Objective-C

01:18:45 ◼   ► is going to be deprecated or start, or go away in a year.

01:18:50 ◼   ► Look at how long Apple has supported the old C APIs,

01:18:54 ◼   ► all the core foundation stuff, C++ compilation

01:18:58 ◼   ► and everything, this is gonna be here for,

01:18:59 ◼   ► Objective-C's gonna be around for a while.

01:19:01 ◼   ► - I mean, but they map to each other,

01:19:02 ◼   ► that's the freaky thing about it.

01:19:03 ◼   ► Like, they showed the thing where they said,

01:19:05 ◼   ► you can look in the Objective-C header

01:19:06 ◼   ► and we'll translate it mechanically to the Swift header,

01:19:09 ◼   ► because they didn't change the API.

01:19:11 ◼   ► Underneath it is like, you can write

01:19:13 ◼   ► the equivalent Objective-C code,

01:19:14 ◼   ► the Objective-C code that would be unsafe,

01:19:16 ◼   ► 'cause you could dereference anything and do crazy stuff.

01:19:18 ◼   ► The Swift code is safe because what you write doesn't include any of that stuff.

01:19:21 ◼   ► That's fairly genius, like saying that we're going to make—I mean, in that respect, it's