ATP

00:00:00 ◼   ► - Pfft, denied.

00:00:01 ◼   ► Reject this offer immediately.

00:00:04 ◼   ► Furthermore, declare war against that podcast.

00:00:06 ◼   ► (electronic beeping)

00:00:07 ◼   ► - I think we have some exciting news.

00:00:10 ◼   ► - We do?

00:00:10 ◼   ► - I think it's time that we reach

00:00:12 ◼   ► the largest daily audience in the world

00:00:14 ◼   ► by connecting everyone to their world

00:00:15 ◼   ► via our information sharing and distribution platform

00:00:18 ◼   ► product and be one of the top revenue generating

00:00:20 ◼   ► internet companies in the world.

00:00:21 ◼   ► - Who puts revenue generation in your statement?

00:00:24 ◼   ► - That was in the mission statement?

00:00:25 ◼   ► - Isn't that like implied?

00:00:28 ◼   ► Like, we also want to make a lot of,

00:00:30 ◼   ► not make a lot of money,

00:00:31 ◼   ► we want a lot of money to flow through our corporation.

00:00:34 ◼   ► Hopefully, eventually our costs will be below that amount

00:00:37 ◼   ► and we'll realize some profit,

00:00:38 ◼   ► but really what we mostly want to concentrate on

00:00:40 ◼   ► is just throughput, you know?

00:00:42 ◼   ► Make it up in volume.

00:00:43 ◼   ► Just lots of revenue, that's our mission statement.

00:00:46 ◼   ► It's just so, it aims so low.

00:00:49 ◼   ► - Well, and to be fair, they corrected us,

00:00:52 ◼   ► this is not Twitter's new mission statement,

00:00:55 ◼   ► this is Twitter's new strategy statement.

00:00:58 ◼   ► I'm not entirely sure what the difference is.

00:01:00 ◼   ► Maybe this is just 'cause I'm not from this planet

00:01:02 ◼   ► and business people apparently are.

00:01:04 ◼   ► - No, it's the opposite.

00:01:06 ◼   ► - Okay, that's, 'cause something is,

00:01:08 ◼   ► geez, something is wacky in business.

00:01:11 ◼   ► Like is there, whatever they put in most businesses,

00:01:15 ◼   ► is there some kind of weird chemical

00:01:16 ◼   ► that off-gases from that that might cause

00:01:19 ◼   ► this kind of language to be understood and produced?

00:01:21 ◼   ► So maybe it's like the spider phones

00:01:23 ◼   ► or like cubicle walls, I don't know.

00:01:26 ◼   ► - Just meetings, it's just, you know,

00:01:28 ◼   ► you've seen a demotivational poster for meetings,

00:01:31 ◼   ► none of us is as dumb as all of us.

00:01:33 ◼   ► (both laughing)

00:01:35 ◼   ► - No, the thing of it is, I've talked about this in the past

00:01:37 ◼   ► and I'm not being funny right now.

00:01:39 ◼   ► I really believe that most large businesses,

00:01:44 ◼   ► and I have seen this firsthand in financial services firms,

00:01:47 ◼   ► they're entirely, not literally of course,

00:01:50 ◼   ► but they're entirely middle management.

00:01:51 ◼   ► And the problem is that every one of these middle managers

00:01:54 ◼   ► realizes deep down inside that they're redundant.

00:01:58 ◼   ► And so they all decide to have meetings constantly.

00:02:02 ◼   ► And they have these meetings so that at these meetings,

00:02:06 ◼   ► all of the middle managers can stick up their peacock tails

00:02:09 ◼   ► and say, "Ooh, look at me.

00:02:10 ◼   ► "I'm so smart, I'm not redundant.

00:02:12 ◼   ► "It's all you, Eddie, et cetera, the redundant ones."

00:02:15 ◼   ► And that's that.

00:02:15 ◼   ► This is the same thing that happens with lawyers.

00:02:18 ◼   ► They make up these ridiculous reasons to exist

00:02:22 ◼   ► simply so that they can continue to exist.

00:02:25 ◼   ► It's completely self-serving and ridiculous.

00:02:26 ◼   ► I mean, look at, reach the largest daily audience

00:02:30 ◼   ► in the world by connecting everyone to their world

00:02:32 ◼   ► via our information sharing and distribution platform

00:02:34 ◼   ► products and be one of the top revenue-generating

00:02:37 ◼   ► internet companies in the world.

00:02:38 ◼   ► I know you read that before.

00:02:40 ◼   ► I'm reading it again and I am miserable.

00:02:42 ◼   ► - Why don't you just tell us what it is

00:02:43 ◼   ► because we've just been talking about this

00:02:44 ◼   ► as if everyone knows and some poor person

00:02:45 ◼   ► is gonna be listening to this six months from now

00:02:47 ◼   ► I have no idea what we're talking about.

00:02:49 ◼   ► - This is the recently unveiled Twitter strategy statement.

00:02:51 ◼   ► At first everyone thought it was a mission statement.

00:02:54 ◼   ► It was later corrected to be a strategy statement

00:02:56 ◼   ► in some kind of, it was unveiled on some kind of investor

00:02:59 ◼   ► presentation that they held today.

00:03:01 ◼   ► Yeah, my favorite part is platform products.

00:03:06 ◼   ► - Yeah, that's where you stop being able

00:03:09 ◼   ► to parse the sentence and you're like,

00:03:10 ◼   ► is there missing punctuation or is this a typo or?

00:03:13 ◼   ► - I mean the whole thing is a tremendous run-on sentence

00:03:15 ◼   ► that really could benefit from some commas.

00:03:18 ◼   ► You can tell they don't even write,

00:03:19 ◼   ► like they don't write very well.

00:03:21 ◼   ► They don't, this doesn't even fit in a tweet

00:03:23 ◼   ► as many people pointed out.

00:03:25 ◼   ► As either a mission or a strategy statement,

00:03:28 ◼   ► it is, I would say, weak at best.

00:03:31 ◼   ► - And it doesn't finish strong, it gets worse,

00:03:33 ◼   ► especially at the bottom.

00:03:34 ◼   ► So revenue I just made fun of, like putting that in there

00:03:37 ◼   ► just seems crass, and putting revenue instead of product

00:03:40 ◼   ► just seems dumb, but the best part is it's one of the top.

00:03:43 ◼   ► Like they're not even gonna say number one.

00:03:45 ◼   ► - They're not gonna say biggest.

00:03:47 ◼   ► They're just gonna be like,

00:03:47 ◼   ► we just wanna be a contender for money

00:03:50 ◼   ► moving through our organization, really.

00:03:52 ◼   ► We're not gonna say we're gonna be number one.

00:03:53 ◼   ► Like, you know, everyone makes fun of Google's

00:03:56 ◼   ► don't be evil thing or whatever, but they're whatever.

00:03:58 ◼   ► They're, I don't know, their mission statement, whatever.

00:03:59 ◼   ► Isn't it like indexing all the world's information

00:04:02 ◼   ► or something like that?

00:04:03 ◼   ► And Microsoft's was the old, you know,

00:04:05 ◼   ► a computer on every desk running Microsoft software.

00:04:08 ◼   ► Like, those are simple, easy to understand goals

00:04:13 ◼   ► that don't say we really want our share price to be high.

00:04:17 ◼   ► Our goal is to make our CEOs options worth so much

00:04:20 ◼   ► that he can retire in five years and buy an island.

00:04:22 ◼   ► You might as well just put that in your mission statement.

00:04:25 ◼   ► Jason Snell in the chat room said his company's mission

00:04:26 ◼   ► statement at one point included revenue per employee.

00:04:30 ◼   ► - Wow. - That's amazing.

00:04:33 ◼   ► It's just aiming low.

00:04:36 ◼   ► It's terrible.

00:04:37 ◼   ► It's almost like you could say you can think that,

00:04:41 ◼   ► but don't write it down.

00:04:43 ◼   ► But really, you shouldn't even be thinking that.

00:04:46 ◼   ► When Microsoft and Google both have more noble, more

00:04:49 ◼   ► inspirational mission statements than you do,

00:04:51 ◼   ► you're not doing well.

00:04:53 ◼   ► Well, and what this shows, it's obviously--

00:04:56 ◼   ► this is a sentence designed by so much committee.

00:04:59 ◼   ► Yep, I don't think it's a sentence.

00:05:00 ◼   ► There's all these--

00:05:01 ◼   ► [LAUGHTER]

00:05:03 ◼   ► There's all these clauses that are bolted on that don't really

00:05:06 ◼   ► need to be there.

00:05:06 ◼   ► And they reflect like every department had a bolt on.

00:05:10 ◼   ► or the leadership couldn't decide what to say

00:05:13 ◼   ► until they said everything.

00:05:14 ◼   ► All of which is funny, 'cause that all kind of seems

00:05:16 ◼   ► to reflect Twitter's kind of wacky, weak leadership.

00:05:20 ◼   ► That Twitter has always had leadership issues

00:05:24 ◼   ► from the founders coming kind of in and out

00:05:26 ◼   ► and different CEOs and business people coming in and out.

00:05:29 ◼   ► They've always had really seemingly unstable leadership.

00:05:32 ◼   ► I mean, Dick Costolo I think has been there the longest

00:05:35 ◼   ► of anybody who's been near the top.

00:05:37 ◼   ► But it's always just kind of been all over the place.

00:05:40 ◼   ► and what they have with the sentences

00:05:42 ◼   ► is a very clear indicator to the outside world

00:05:45 ◼   ► that they still have struggles up at the very top

00:05:50 ◼   ► with getting, what the direction of the company

00:05:53 ◼   ► might even be or who gets to get recognized or whatever.

00:05:56 ◼   ► It's a little thing, this is not like a major disaster

00:06:00 ◼   ► or anything but it's an indicator of the kind of sloppy,

00:06:05 ◼   ► possibly out of touch, possibly shot in the dark

00:06:09 ◼   ► kind of leadership that they have.

00:06:12 ◼   ► I mean, look at, like I would,

00:06:13 ◼   ► reach the largest daily audience in the world.

00:06:16 ◼   ► You could end it right there and be done.

00:06:18 ◼   ► It's still a little weird.

00:06:19 ◼   ► - Although that, even that is like,

00:06:21 ◼   ► what do you mean reach?

00:06:22 ◼   ► When you reach them, what have you done?

00:06:24 ◼   ► Like, you're not, you know what I mean?

00:06:26 ◼   ► Like the Google thing, like they're whatever they're doing.

00:06:28 ◼   ► Indexing the world's information.

00:06:30 ◼   ► Like they're taking all the information in the world,

00:06:31 ◼   ► they wanna bring it all in and organize it

00:06:33 ◼   ► and make it accessible in a way.

00:06:34 ◼   ► Like they're doing a useful thing.

00:06:35 ◼   ► They're saying there's information,

00:06:37 ◼   ► it's hard to do anything with it.

00:06:38 ◼   ► we Google have this massive ambition

00:06:40 ◼   ► that all information world will take it in

00:06:42 ◼   ► and will make it so that you can do something useful with it

00:06:44 ◼   ► right, that is a useful thing.

00:06:45 ◼   ► - Well and even the next clause is also pretty good.

00:06:47 ◼   ► Connect everyone to their world.

00:06:50 ◼   ► That alone doesn't say a lot,

00:06:53 ◼   ► but it's better than the whole, you know?

00:06:56 ◼   ► And then of course the end,

00:06:57 ◼   ► be one of the top revenue-generating internet companies

00:06:58 ◼   ► in the world, okay, you know,

00:06:59 ◼   ► if that's what you wanna be, fine.

00:07:01 ◼   ► But like, if anybody with editing permission

00:07:06 ◼   ► got ahold of this, it probably would have been better

00:07:09 ◼   ► to just say, connect everyone to their world.

00:07:12 ◼   ► Like, that's it, that's all you need to say

00:07:14 ◼   ► out of this entire 65-word sentence that's awful.

00:07:17 ◼   ► - But even that is just like really weak.

00:07:20 ◼   ► It doesn't seem like they know what,

00:07:23 ◼   ► it would have been a more fun meeting

00:07:25 ◼   ► to take these same people who came up with this

00:07:27 ◼   ► and say, what do you think Twitter is doing now?

00:07:30 ◼   ► What do people use Twitter for?

00:07:32 ◼   ► Like, Twitter is a thing that exists, right?

00:07:33 ◼   ► You guys run the company, so can you describe

00:07:36 ◼   ► like what it is that Twitter is right now.

00:07:38 ◼   ► Like not what you want it to be,

00:07:39 ◼   ► not what you want the company to be,

00:07:41 ◼   ► not what your mission is,

00:07:42 ◼   ► but like right now there is something called Twitter

00:07:43 ◼   ► and people use it and try to describe that.

00:07:45 ◼   ► And I don't think they could

00:07:46 ◼   ► 'cause I don't think they're Twitter users,

00:07:47 ◼   ► I don't think they understand what value that Twitter has.

00:07:50 ◼   ► That would have been a more instructive exercise for them.

00:07:53 ◼   ► - Yeah, I would be shocked

00:07:56 ◼   ► if most of Twitter's top leadership

00:07:59 ◼   ► really used Twitter very heavily.

00:08:01 ◼   ► - Yeah, I don't get this.

00:08:02 ◼   ► And I keep coming back to what you were saying earlier,

00:08:04 ◼   ► Marco, that this is definitely designed by committee.

00:08:06 ◼   ► This, this, what is, not a mission statement,

00:08:08 ◼   ► what do we call it, strategy statement?

00:08:10 ◼   ► - A strategy statement.

00:08:11 ◼   ► - Thank you.

00:08:12 ◼   ► This strategy statement seems like the text-based equivalent

00:08:16 ◼   ► of like a website's carousel.

00:08:18 ◼   ► Do you know what I'm talking about?

00:08:19 ◼   ► Where, you know, there are 10 different groups

00:08:22 ◼   ► that all are convinced that they should be

00:08:24 ◼   ► the hero image on this website.

00:08:27 ◼   ► And what ends up happening is nobody wants

00:08:29 ◼   ► to make a tough decision, and so they just say,

00:08:32 ◼   ► "Yeah, screw it, we'll put it on a rotating carousel

00:08:34 ◼   ► and that'll be good enough."

00:08:35 ◼   ► This is like the text version of that.

00:08:38 ◼   ► Just like you were saying, everyone,

00:08:39 ◼   ► you get three words a piece

00:08:41 ◼   ► and we'll just mash them together in some way

00:08:42 ◼   ► that vaguely resembles English.

00:08:44 ◼   ► So bad, so bad.

00:08:48 ◼   ► All right, you wanna do some follow up?

00:08:51 ◼   ► - Yeah, there was one other thing

00:08:53 ◼   ► I was trying to think about with the Twitter thing

00:08:54 ◼   ► and I totally lost my mind.

00:08:56 ◼   ► Maybe it'll come back to me later.

00:08:58 ◼   ► - Maybe the strategy statement melted your brain.

00:09:00 ◼   ► - Probably.

00:09:01 ◼   ► - It definitely did.

00:09:02 ◼   ► I was proud of myself that I remembered

00:09:03 ◼   ► the demotivational poster word for word.

00:09:06 ◼   ► Without looking it up.

00:09:09 ◼   ► - All right, so let's talk about App Store

00:09:12 ◼   ► not allowing purchase of bundles.

00:09:15 ◼   ► - Yeah, I didn't have an example of that last time.

00:09:17 ◼   ► I still don't have an example,

00:09:18 ◼   ► but I think the same person, Colin Pickren,

00:09:20 ◼   ► who sent in the original thing, sent us a screenshot.

00:09:23 ◼   ► And the weird thing about the screenshot,

00:09:25 ◼   ► if you take a look at it,

00:09:25 ◼   ► is it just gets rid of the purchase button.

00:09:29 ◼   ► I mean, it's not a big screenshot.

00:09:31 ◼   ► It's cropped, so I can't see,

00:09:32 ◼   ► but basically there's no purchase button.

00:09:33 ◼   ► He's got a big red arrow saying,

00:09:34 ◼   ► "This is where the purchase button would be."

00:09:36 ◼   ► And if he didn't include another shot

00:09:38 ◼   ► showing the purchase button, like that it would be there,

00:09:41 ◼   ► I wouldn't understand what the arrow was pointing to.

00:09:42 ◼   ► So basically if someone stumbles

00:09:43 ◼   ► upon one of these bundles, it's good.

00:09:44 ◼   ► I guess that the App Store won't let you buy it

00:09:46 ◼   ► for more than it would cost you

00:09:47 ◼   ► just to buy the one app you're missing.

00:09:49 ◼   ► But it's kind of weird.

00:09:50 ◼   ► Maybe somewhere else on the page

00:09:52 ◼   ► it tells you why there's no purchase button.

00:09:54 ◼   ► - This is like bug fix by display none.

00:09:57 ◼   ► - Right, exactly.

00:09:57 ◼   ► It's like, you know, maybe a button that says,

00:10:01 ◼   ► here's the problem, what would you put in the button?

00:10:04 ◼   ► You can't buy this because it would cost you more

00:10:06 ◼   ► than buying the individual app.

00:10:08 ◼   ► It does not fit in the button,

00:10:09 ◼   ► and let's try it in German, right?

00:10:10 ◼   ► So it's not gonna work out.

00:10:13 ◼   ► I don't know.

00:10:14 ◼   ► Bundles are a mess.

00:10:15 ◼   ► Anyway, thought I'd throw that in there.

00:10:17 ◼   ► We'll put it in the show notes.

00:10:19 ◼   ► - I'm still honestly trying to figure out

00:10:21 ◼   ► why Apple made bundles.

00:10:23 ◼   ► You know, obviously it was not for upgrade price hacks.

00:10:25 ◼   ► That's obviously not the intent here,

00:10:27 ◼   ► otherwise it would work better for that.

00:10:29 ◼   ► I really wonder, like, what, like,

00:10:32 ◼   ► it seems to only benefit, obviously,

00:10:34 ◼   ► it only benefits paid apps.

00:10:36 ◼   ► I don't think in-app purchases can contribute

00:10:37 ◼   ► in any possible way to this.

00:10:39 ◼   ► And Apple usually doesn't do anything to help paid apps

00:10:44 ◼   ► because most of the apps that actually get downloaded

00:10:47 ◼   ► aren't paid apps, and most of the money in the app store

00:10:49 ◼   ► does not come from paid apps anymore.

00:10:50 ◼   ► I think the number is something like, you know, 10%

00:10:53 ◼   ► or something of the money comes from paid apps.

00:10:55 ◼   ► It's some kind of very low number by most of the reports

00:10:57 ◼   ► to try to measure it.

00:10:58 ◼   ► So I wonder what was the goal here?

00:11:02 ◼   ► Was it some kind of weird like,

00:11:05 ◼   ► you know, serve certain game companies kind of thing?

00:11:07 ◼   ► I honestly have no idea.

00:11:09 ◼   ► - It's a sales tool.

00:11:11 ◼   ► So it's yet another thing that Apple can do

00:11:13 ◼   ► to make software cheaper,

00:11:15 ◼   ► if you think of it in that light, right?

00:11:16 ◼   ► So there are some apps that are paid,

00:11:18 ◼   ► and it's like, well, we can't make those people

00:11:20 ◼   ► make their apps free,

00:11:21 ◼   ► but maybe we can make it so that the cost of those apps

00:11:23 ◼   ► is less by letting people bundle them up

00:11:25 ◼   ► so that if people were gonna buy these three apps anyway,

00:11:28 ◼   ► now you can buy those three apps for less money.

00:11:29 ◼   ► It's basically just lowering the purchase price.

00:11:31 ◼   ► So all sorts of sale tactics, obviously free is magic,

00:11:35 ◼   ► but people like lower prices as well.

00:11:36 ◼   ► So the price of individual apps gets driven down.

00:11:39 ◼   ► But this is a tool to say,

00:11:42 ◼   ► if you make a suite of applications

00:11:43 ◼   ► and people aren't gonna buy them individually

00:11:46 ◼   ► for $2.99 each 'cause that's just too much money.

00:11:50 ◼   ► So put them all into a bundle together for five bucks,

00:11:53 ◼   ► put four $2.99 apps in the bundle for five bucks

00:11:55 ◼   ► And then you basically, once again,

00:11:57 ◼   ► found a way to lower the price of software for customers.

00:11:59 ◼   ► They get more software for less money.

00:12:01 ◼   ► That's my guess.

00:12:03 ◼   ► Because that's Apple's big thing,

00:12:04 ◼   ► they want software to be cheap.

00:12:07 ◼   ► And if there are some applications that are not cheap,

00:12:10 ◼   ► they're like, what if we get-- and it's good.

00:12:12 ◼   ► It's a win-win for the developer, too.

00:12:14 ◼   ► They say, you have multiple apps,

00:12:15 ◼   ► so you're having trouble selling them individually.

00:12:17 ◼   ► What if we gave you a way to sell them together

00:12:19 ◼   ► for a lower price?

00:12:20 ◼   ► That would save the consumer money.

00:12:22 ◼   ► Anyone who was going to buy both those apps anyway saves money.

00:12:24 ◼   ► and you maybe make a sale where you wouldn't before

00:12:27 ◼   ► because before it's perceived as a bargain.

00:12:29 ◼   ► It's the same reason everything is on sale all the time

00:12:32 ◼   ► at the big department stores.

00:12:33 ◼   ► - Right, but still, it just seems like Apple

00:12:37 ◼   ► is doing something pretty redundant here.

00:12:40 ◼   ► Like if they're trying to reduce the price

00:12:43 ◼   ► that paid software sells for,

00:12:45 ◼   ► they can just do that by inaction

00:12:47 ◼   ► because everything else about the App Store

00:12:50 ◼   ► encourages prices to go down to free.

00:12:52 ◼   ► - People love bundles though.

00:12:54 ◼   ► - Back when I was at the e-book store place,

00:12:57 ◼   ► we had many different kinds of bundles

00:12:59 ◼   ► and they were a popular thing to have.

00:13:02 ◼   ► We like making them, people like buying them.

00:13:04 ◼   ► I'm surprised more electronic store,

00:13:08 ◼   ► I mean, I guess they kind of do.

00:13:10 ◼   ► Does the iTunes store do that when you complete this album?

00:13:13 ◼   ► Is that always just straight math or do you get a bargain?

00:13:15 ◼   ► - I believe it is straight math,

00:13:16 ◼   ► but I'm not 100% sure on that.

00:13:18 ◼   ► - Oh, anyway, bundles, it's a thing.

00:13:21 ◼   ► - Free slogan, they can have that.

00:13:22 ◼   ► How about iWork?

00:13:24 ◼   ► Yeah, iWork, speaking of bundles and cheaper software, so John G, not John Gruber, wrote

00:13:30 ◼   ► in to comment on what I said about iWork, about how having a mediocre to crappy office

00:13:37 ◼   ► type program doesn't make Apple's hardware more valuable.

00:13:40 ◼   ► It doesn't help Apple sell hardware in the way that iLife used to back when iLife was

00:13:44 ◼   ► really good.

00:13:45 ◼   ► iWork has never been really good and doesn't really help sell Macs.

00:13:49 ◼   ► If anything, maybe it's just neutral.

00:13:51 ◼   ► John G says that he thinks they're all defensive strategies

00:13:54 ◼   ► to ensure the companies don't get squeezed out.

00:13:56 ◼   ► He says, "What if the Surface 6th generation

00:13:57 ◼   ► is amazingly caught up to the iPad

00:13:59 ◼   ► and comes with Office Free?

00:14:00 ◼   ► Apple might get squeezed out."

00:14:01 ◼   ► So basically by having its own Office Suite

00:14:04 ◼   ► then it'll be holding to Microsoft

00:14:06 ◼   ► and they won't be afraid that whatever their platform is,

00:14:11 ◼   ► iPad or whatever will become less viable

00:14:13 ◼   ► if Microsoft suddenly decides

00:14:14 ◼   ► they don't wanna offer Office for iOS.

00:14:16 ◼   ► Now, first of all, the odds at this point of Microsoft

00:14:19 ◼   ► not offering Office for iOS seemed very low

00:14:21 ◼   ► since Microsoft seems very gung ho

00:14:24 ◼   ► on cross-platform these days.

00:14:25 ◼   ► Second of all, Office wasn't on iOS for a really long time,

00:14:28 ◼   ► didn't seem to hurt it.

00:14:29 ◼   ► But the biggest counterargument to this idea

00:14:32 ◼   ► that Apple needs to make an Office suite

00:14:34 ◼   ► so they don't get squeezed out

00:14:36 ◼   ► by someday having Office taken away or something

00:14:40 ◼   ► is that Apple having a mediocre Office suite

00:14:43 ◼   ► subsidized by hardware profits

00:14:45 ◼   ► makes it way harder for third-party developers

00:14:47 ◼   ► to make a living selling Office-type applications.

00:14:51 ◼   ► I work as a free thing,

00:14:52 ◼   ► and I think it's free now, right, all the time.

00:14:54 ◼   ► Comes with new devices anyway,

00:14:56 ◼   ► you can just download the apps automatically, right?

00:14:57 ◼   ► - Right.

00:14:58 ◼   ► - That makes it really hard for anybody else

00:15:00 ◼   ► to try to make Office-style applications.

00:15:02 ◼   ► Microsoft can because they're subsidized

00:15:04 ◼   ► by whatever is making them money,

00:15:05 ◼   ► and I think they just made Office for iOS free

00:15:08 ◼   ► or something like that.

00:15:09 ◼   ► - But mostly, sort of.

00:15:11 ◼   ► - Yeah, I know, it's always confusing

00:15:12 ◼   ► with the 365 thing, the subscriptions and everything.

00:15:14 ◼   ► - Yeah, it's mostly free.

00:15:16 ◼   ► - Yeah, but so if Apple is really concerned

00:15:18 ◼   ► about making its platform not too reliant on office

00:15:22 ◼   ► or any other particular type of thing,

00:15:24 ◼   ► the best thing it could do is foster a thriving market

00:15:28 ◼   ► for office type applications.

00:15:30 ◼   ► And by making, putting tons of money into iWork

00:15:32 ◼   ► and then giving it away for free,

00:15:34 ◼   ► or at the very least as it was before, below cost,

00:15:37 ◼   ► that makes it impossible for you to have a thriving ecosystem

00:15:39 ◼   ► of office applications.

00:15:40 ◼   ► You're basically guaranteeing

00:15:41 ◼   ► it's only just you versus office.

00:15:43 ◼   ► So I think rather than iWork being neutral,

00:15:47 ◼   ► it's actually, in terms of the fear of being squeezed out,

00:15:50 ◼   ► it's actually a negative because they're making sure

00:15:53 ◼   ► that no one else will ever try to make

00:15:55 ◼   ► a suite of Office applications because, you know,

00:15:57 ◼   ► well, Microsoft plus Apple are both making sure

00:16:00 ◼   ► that no one else is gonna try to do that.

00:16:01 ◼   ► And so we're at the mercy of Microsoft,

00:16:04 ◼   ► which so far hasn't been that great,

00:16:05 ◼   ► and iWork, which also has not been that great.

00:16:08 ◼   ► - How about the Rymac GPU being throttled?

00:16:12 ◼   ► Is that a thing?

00:16:13 ◼   ► - I think it is a thing, at least for people

00:16:15 ◼   ► who are interested in playing games in Windows.

00:16:17 ◼   ► A lot of people sent me this link to MacRumors forum thread

00:16:20 ◼   ► about iMac 5K GPU throttling.

00:16:24 ◼   ► And it started where someone was doing

00:16:26 ◼   ► some gaming benchmarks in Windows,

00:16:29 ◼   ► in bootcamp on iMac 5K,

00:16:32 ◼   ► and saw that the GPU would start throttling

00:16:35 ◼   ► way below the temperature it's supposed to.

00:16:39 ◼   ► So like, according to this person,

00:16:41 ◼   ► thinks that the GPU is supposed to start throttling at 105 degrees Celsius and

00:16:45 ◼   ► instead it started throttling like seconds after it started to be used in

00:16:49 ◼   ► Windows it would start throttling like 70 degrees Celsius. So that's not good but

00:16:53 ◼   ► that could just be bad Windows drivers and lots of people in the rest of this

00:16:57 ◼   ► thread talk about, you know, well maybe better bootcamp drivers will come out

00:17:00 ◼   ► and this will be a problem. But then other people later in the thread said

00:17:04 ◼   ► it's not just Windows I can run a game on my Mac and it's really easy to get

00:17:09 ◼   ► the GPU up to 105 degrees Celsius.

00:17:11 ◼   ► And for people who don't know what Celsius is,

00:17:13 ◼   ► (laughing)

00:17:15 ◼   ► that's really hot.

00:17:16 ◼   ► 100 degrees Celsius is the boiling point of water, right?

00:17:19 ◼   ► - Yes, yes.

00:17:20 ◼   ► - Yeah, as the Americans confidently say,

00:17:21 ◼   ► "Yes, yes, Celsius."

00:17:23 ◼   ► Anyway, the point is that's really hot.

00:17:25 ◼   ► And a lot of people in the thread are concerned

00:17:28 ◼   ► that this is near the thermal limits of the GPU.

00:17:30 ◼   ► It's gonna shorten the life of the GPU.

00:17:32 ◼   ► Then other people in the thread say,

00:17:33 ◼   ► "Don't you think Apple would have tested this

00:17:34 ◼   ► with temperatures?"

00:17:35 ◼   ► And other people come back with,

00:17:37 ◼   ► if we'll look at all these historic GPU failures

00:17:39 ◼   ► in Apple portable machines.

00:17:41 ◼   ► So at the very least, this is not encouraging

00:17:44 ◼   ► if you're planning on gaming on an iMac.

00:17:46 ◼   ► Temperatures aside, if you're not worried

00:17:50 ◼   ► about the particular temperatures,

00:17:51 ◼   ► or maybe it's the way it's measured

00:17:53 ◼   ► because it's peak temperature

00:17:53 ◼   ► instead of at the edge of the die or whatever,

00:17:56 ◼   ► I think the more important point is,

00:18:00 ◼   ► and there's other length to open the show,

00:18:01 ◼   ► it's the gaming benchmarks.

00:18:03 ◼   ► So ignore temperatures, ignore temperatures entirely.

00:18:06 ◼   ► Ignore the longevity of your GPU, whatever that may or may not be.

00:18:11 ◼   ► If you look at gaming benchmarks like this BareFeets thing did of the new, fanciest 5K iMac

00:18:17 ◼   ► versus the lesser GPU in the 5K iMac versus the old, non-retina iMac,

00:18:23 ◼   ► the top of the line iMac you can buy is not even the fastest iMac ever made depending on your game.

00:18:30 ◼   ► And when it does win, it doesn't win by a large margin.

00:18:33 ◼   ► Margin so these benchmarks are kind of depressing from game. It's not bad game performance

00:18:37 ◼   ► It's fine, but you would expect you know this to be a next generation iMac with an entirely different GPU

00:18:43 ◼   ► You expect it to do better than the previous generation GPU and for the most part it does

00:18:49 ◼   ► But it's not a really convincing win in a couple benchmarks. It actually is a little bit slower and so

00:18:54 ◼   ► Regardless of throttling that's not great either

00:18:57 ◼   ► So it's kind of not

00:19:01 ◼   ► Yeah, I would say I'm a mixed bag with a lot of unknowns right now for the 5k iMac

00:19:06 ◼   ► I don't know much about the temperature stuff. I can't really tell if this is crazy or not. Although

00:19:11 ◼   ► People running similar benchmarks against their old

00:19:14 ◼   ► iMacs are getting way lower temperatures and you can't tell like is that because the sensor is showing

00:19:19 ◼   ► There's a temperature different location. What is the

00:19:22 ◼   ► reasonable temperature for this GPU

00:19:25 ◼   ► Is it okay for it to be showing a measurement of 105 degrees Celsius all the time?

00:19:30 ◼   ► The throttling window seems like a driver issue,

00:19:33 ◼   ► like it shouldn't be throttling at 70 degrees Celsius

00:19:36 ◼   ► and so that's really killing Windows gaming performance

00:19:38 ◼   ► there, so I don't know.

00:19:41 ◼   ► Anyway, depressing thread for anyone who is looking forward

00:19:44 ◼   ► to gaming on their iMac 5K.

00:19:46 ◼   ► - I think you're right, John, that is disappointing.

00:19:48 ◼   ► It doesn't affect me or my priorities at all,

00:19:50 ◼   ► but that is disappointing.

00:19:51 ◼   ► For whatever it's worth, I've been running the iStat menu's

00:19:55 ◼   ► fan monitor just so I could get an idea of like,

00:19:59 ◼   ► you know, when the fan spins up,

00:20:00 ◼   ► under what temperatures, under what kind of load,

00:20:02 ◼   ► just so I can have some idea of how this computer behaves.

00:20:05 ◼   ► Right now, it's letting the CPUs idle

00:20:07 ◼   ► at about 130 Fahrenheit.

00:20:10 ◼   ► I don't have this in Celsius mode, sorry.

00:20:12 ◼   ► You'll have to do your own translations.

00:20:14 ◼   ► But CPUs are idling at about 130, GPUs idle at about 100.

00:20:18 ◼   ► One of them just sitting here doing not much.

00:20:20 ◼   ► I noticed that the fan will only spin up on the CPU,

00:20:24 ◼   ► well, it's one fan in the whole system,

00:20:25 ◼   ► but the fan will spin up when the CPU temperature

00:20:27 ◼   ► reaches about 190 Fahrenheit.

00:20:30 ◼   ► So it's getting very close to that 100 Celsius number

00:20:32 ◼   ► before the fan even spins up.

00:20:34 ◼   ► It doesn't ever cross 200, so it's keeping it right below

00:20:38 ◼   ► whatever it is in Celsius, like 95 or whatever.

00:20:40 ◼   ► It's keeping the CPUs right below that under full load.

00:20:43 ◼   ► But it's not spinning up at all until then,

00:20:46 ◼   ► whatever that's worth.

00:20:46 ◼   ► Anyway, but yeah, I have found so far in my kind of use,

00:20:51 ◼   ► I'm actually extremely happy.

00:20:54 ◼   ► The more I use this machine, the happier I am with it.

00:20:56 ◼   ► It is really, really nice.

00:20:59 ◼   ► I mean, it's like, even like I mentioned last week,

00:21:02 ◼   ► the fan noise under full load,

00:21:03 ◼   ► I did the one test with the full load fan noise,

00:21:06 ◼   ► then I didn't load it up like that for a few days,

00:21:09 ◼   ► and like the memory of it got louder in my mind

00:21:11 ◼   ► over those few days. (laughs)

00:21:13 ◼   ► And then like when I ran a handbrake conversion

00:21:15 ◼   ► the other day for a totally legal movie file

00:21:18 ◼   ► that a totally legal podcast friend of mine got me

00:21:21 ◼   ► for a totally legal BBC car show,

00:21:23 ◼   ► (laughing)

00:21:24 ◼   ► when I ran a handbrake transcode of that file

00:21:27 ◼   ► to make it on my totally legal Apple TV,

00:21:29 ◼   ► I was matching out the CPUs again,

00:21:32 ◼   ► and the fan was way quieter than I imagined it in my head.

00:21:37 ◼   ► Like, it is loud.

00:21:39 ◼   ► It is like a laptop fan in that when it spins to full speed,

00:21:43 ◼   ► you will hear it.

00:21:44 ◼   ► But it is, I would say, I'd say a little quieter

00:21:48 ◼   ► than a 15-inch Retina MacBook Pro fan, after all.

00:21:50 ◼   ► Like, it's similar kind of noise, a little quieter,

00:21:52 ◼   ► still noticeable, still audible,

00:21:54 ◼   ► still annoying if it's always that loud.

00:21:56 ◼   ► But either way, I would say this is a computer

00:22:00 ◼   ► that is really great if you're not loading up

00:22:02 ◼   ► to full blast every day constantly.

00:22:04 ◼   ► You know, if full blast on the CPUs or GPUs

00:22:08 ◼   ► is an occasional thing, then that's great

00:22:10 ◼   ► and it won't be a problem.

00:22:11 ◼   ► - Yeah, that's the concern about this for gaming.

00:22:14 ◼   ► People who game like spend just hours

00:22:16 ◼   ► with everything going full tilt.

00:22:18 ◼   ► - Right, and that I would be concerned.

00:22:19 ◼   ► - If you're doing a first person shooter,

00:22:21 ◼   ► just hours and hours a day for months and months on end.

00:22:23 ◼   ► What people are saying about the old iMac problems and other things is that it doesn't it doesn't kill it right away

00:22:28 ◼   ► But like by the time your Apple care runs out if you bought like a couple extra years of Apple care

00:22:32 ◼   ► Just around that point just from the constant constantly running at a very high temperature

00:22:36 ◼   ► and what they're saying is it shortens the life of the components and

00:22:38 ◼   ► If the gaming could performance was like this where it's like it's mostly faster than the previous top-end

00:22:44 ◼   ► But not really by much and in a few benchmarks is a little bit under you'd be like

00:22:47 ◼   ► Okay, if it was like also lower power and cooler and quieter

00:22:51 ◼   ► but it seems almost like a downgrade,

00:22:54 ◼   ► whereas the previous one got similar benchmark numbers

00:22:56 ◼   ► running it at a lower indicated temperature

00:22:58 ◼   ► according to whatever these sensors are or anything.

00:23:00 ◼   ► So it gives the feeling that,

00:23:02 ◼   ► what am I doing all this stuff,

00:23:03 ◼   ► or more, what do you call it, more VRAM, I guess,

00:23:06 ◼   ► because I don't think I've ever had four gigs,

00:23:08 ◼   ► but it's not, this doesn't look like a good GPU upgrade

00:23:13 ◼   ► from the previous one.

00:23:14 ◼   ► It's more kind of like a lateral move at best.

00:23:17 ◼   ► - Right, and this is, I mean,

00:23:19 ◼   ► I continue to believe, you know, like if you're looking at the Mac lineup with the goal of

00:23:25 ◼   ► playing games, like playing, you know, high-end games a lot, I think you're going to be

00:23:31 ◼   ► sad. And there's just not a lot of, you know, of greatness to that. Like, the best

00:23:36 ◼   ► case scenario is you buy a Mac Pro, which is spending a lot of money for a video card

00:23:42 ◼   ► that actually isn't very good at gaming. Like, it can do it, but it's, like, you're

00:23:46 ◼   ► you're not getting your money's worth on the video card,

00:23:49 ◼   ► 'cause that's not really what you're paying for.

00:23:51 ◼   ► You're not paying for gaming ability

00:23:53 ◼   ► on the Mac Pro's $5,000 purchase price.

00:23:56 ◼   ► So, really, I continue to say that your best choice,

00:24:01 ◼   ► if you want to play PC games,

00:24:04 ◼   ► is to either settle for a game console

00:24:06 ◼   ► or build a gaming PC, 'cause it's--

00:24:08 ◼   ► - Game console is not an equivalent for PC games.

00:24:11 ◼   ► People who wanna play PC games need a keyboard and a mouse.

00:24:14 ◼   ► - Right, so then build a gaming PC.

00:24:15 ◼   ► It's like you can build a great gaming PC for like 1200 bucks. I wouldn't call it great

00:24:19 ◼   ► Well better if you wanted to match the current Mac Pro with its with its best video card option

00:24:27 ◼   ► I bet you could build a gaming PC that that has roughly similar gaming performances that for total thought in my head

00:24:33 ◼   ► I would say 1500 or less. Oh, yeah, but we're not talking about performance

00:24:37 ◼   ► Like when you say a great PC

00:24:38 ◼   ► Like the reason people buy max is they're not just interested in what is the frame rate for amount of money?

00:24:42 ◼   ► Like obviously they would just get a gaming PC if you wanted to do that, but what you're

00:24:47 ◼   ► looking for from a Mac is like the whole package you wanted.

00:24:50 ◼   ► Nice and elegant and lots of extraneous stuff and you're sure it'll all work together

00:24:54 ◼   ► and you don't have to worry about driver issues and it looks nice and in the case of

00:24:57 ◼   ► the Mac Pro it's quiet and it's cool and interesting and all that stuff, you know.

00:25:01 ◼   ► So the Mac Pro is still the best gaming Mac, which is sad because it's got, like you

00:25:05 ◼   ► said, not a great video card for gaming and you just pay a tremendous amount of money

00:25:09 ◼   ► for it.

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00:27:38 ◼   ► - So let's talk about Trim for a second.

00:27:41 ◼   ► We brought this up last episode

00:27:43 ◼   ► with regard to Jon's new purchase

00:27:45 ◼   ► and we got some feedback about that, Jon.

00:27:49 ◼   ► - Yeah, this is from a former Apple engineer.

00:27:52 ◼   ► This is something we didn't mention in the past show

00:27:54 ◼   ► but it's worth clarifying in case people were wondering

00:27:57 ◼   ► Why is it that Apple only supports initially only supported trim on its own

00:28:02 ◼   ► drives and

00:28:04 ◼   ► To this day still doesn't support it on a lot of third-party drives

00:28:07 ◼   ► Is it a punitive thing where Apple wants you to buy their drives and doesn't want to support trim on third-party drives?

00:28:13 ◼   ► No, not really

00:28:14 ◼   ► The reason they don't support trim on third-party drives the same reason Apple doesn't support a lot of third-party stuff

00:28:19 ◼   ► is

00:28:21 ◼   ► You know, they wanted they want to decrease their their support burdens. They sort of

00:28:26 ◼   ► Qualify they whitelist which devices they can send trim command secure and this this former Apple engineer. It says that

00:28:32 ◼   ► in the first two years after trim showed up as a thing a lot of the

00:28:37 ◼   ► Flash controllers out there had firmware

00:28:39 ◼   ► They would trim the wrong range of blocks so the OS would tell it to trim a certain set of blocks

00:28:43 ◼   ► and it would do it like off by one or

00:28:45 ◼   ► Or even worse there is taking logical block numbers and using them as physical block numbers with no mappings

00:28:50 ◼   ► And there was other bugs like not invalidating trim in the queue if it'll later write was given for the block

00:28:56 ◼   ► So, basically bugs.

00:28:59 ◼   ► If Apple simply said, "Oh, we'll support trim everywhere

00:29:02 ◼   ► and we'll send the correct trim commands

00:29:03 ◼   ► to any third-party drive you plug in."

00:29:06 ◼   ► That would be bad because Apple knew for a fact

00:29:09 ◼   ► that there were many buggy drives out there

00:29:12 ◼   ► that would do bad things if you send the trim command,

00:29:15 ◼   ► some of which could result in data loss.

00:29:16 ◼   ► So what they did is the typical Apple thing of,

00:29:19 ◼   ► they made sure that their own SSDs that they shipped

00:29:22 ◼   ► worked with the trim command.

00:29:25 ◼   ► and said some of them, the internal flash shipped

00:29:27 ◼   ► with firmware that Apple wrote or firmware

00:29:29 ◼   ► that they could get in source code form and could modify.

00:29:32 ◼   ► And later on when some firmware came from vendors

00:29:36 ◼   ► that was okay, Apple whitelisted it.

00:29:38 ◼   ► And so basically if you connect an SSD to OS X,

00:29:43 ◼   ► if it's not one of the ones that Apple is absolutely sure

00:29:46 ◼   ► is going to behave correctly,

00:29:47 ◼   ► either because they wrote the firmware

00:29:48 ◼   ► or they qualified it as an internal drive

00:29:50 ◼   ► or they whitelisted it as the third part,

00:29:52 ◼   ► exact third party make and model and drive

00:29:54 ◼   ► that works correctly, they don't do it.

00:29:57 ◼   ► And that is the most conservative approach

00:30:00 ◼   ► and the safest approach.

00:30:01 ◼   ► But I could probably also guess that Apple

00:30:04 ◼   ► does not spend a lot of its time buying

00:30:05 ◼   ► every single third party SSD,

00:30:07 ◼   ► testing its trim support and increasing the size

00:30:12 ◼   ► of that whitelist, which is why the third party hack,

00:30:15 ◼   ► the trim enabler thing is out there.

00:30:17 ◼   ► If you feel like you have a drive

00:30:18 ◼   ► that you're sure responds correctly to trim commands

00:30:21 ◼   ► and would benefit from using them,

00:30:23 ◼   ► you could use that enabler,

00:30:24 ◼   ► but then Yosemite, they have the kernel,

00:30:26 ◼   ► you know, extension signing thing,

00:30:28 ◼   ► listen to the previous show for all the details on that.

00:30:29 ◼   ► So if anyone thought that our description last week

00:30:34 ◼   ► was implying that Apple was malicious in this case,

00:30:36 ◼   ► at worst, you could say they're lazy

00:30:38 ◼   ► because they're not buying and qualifying every single drive

00:30:42 ◼   ► so they can increase the sizes of their whitelist.

00:30:44 ◼   ► But at best, they're just being typical conservative Apple

00:30:48 ◼   ► and trying to keep their driver burden low.

00:30:51 ◼   ► So, and I think a couple other people

00:30:54 ◼   ► who send information about,

00:30:56 ◼   ► I think we alluded to this last week,

00:30:58 ◼   ► the utility of the TRMM command may or may not be lessened

00:31:01 ◼   ► depending on the little storage computer

00:31:03 ◼   ► that's inside of each of your SSDs

00:31:05 ◼   ► and how it manages storage.

00:31:07 ◼   ► Again, the drive can't know when blocks are freed up

00:31:10 ◼   ► for use, but it can make more intelligent decisions

00:31:13 ◼   ► about right leveling and stuff like that.

00:31:15 ◼   ► So, as I said last week,

00:31:18 ◼   ► I am open to the idea that my Samsung 850 Pro

00:31:21 ◼   ► that I have will eventually get super slow.

00:31:23 ◼   ► And I'm also open to the idea that if that happens,

00:31:26 ◼   ► it's possible that enabling trim using this hack

00:31:30 ◼   ► will solve the problem for me.

00:31:31 ◼   ► But until the first problem happens,

00:31:33 ◼   ► I am not interested in the experiment of discovering

00:31:36 ◼   ► whether the second thing solves the problem or causes more.

00:31:39 ◼   ► - Fair enough.

00:31:41 ◼   ► And then do we wanna briefly talk about

00:31:44 ◼   ► whether or not the six plus is selling well?

00:31:47 ◼   ► - Yeah, what was it like last week?

00:31:49 ◼   ► That 50/50 number came from the T-Mobile CEO or something.

00:31:52 ◼   ► He was saying, yeah, the 6, 6 Plus seemed

00:31:55 ◼   ► to be in about even numbers.

00:31:56 ◼   ► And who knows what that means from T-Mobile.

00:31:58 ◼   ► Here's another one from this locallytics company

00:32:02 ◼   ► that is some kind of app analytics company.

00:32:04 ◼   ► And they gave numbers that are closer

00:32:05 ◼   ► to my original prediction from, I think,

00:32:08 ◼   ► right after the phones were announced

00:32:10 ◼   ► that I expected the 6 to way outsell the 6 Plus.

00:32:12 ◼   ► And locallytics says that the 6 is outselling the 6 Plus 6 to 1.

00:32:16 ◼   ► And as usual, Apple says nothing.

00:32:18 ◼   ► So we don't know.

00:32:18 ◼   ► but we'll put the link in the show notes.

00:32:20 ◼   ► Now we have two extremely widely varying guesses,

00:32:23 ◼   ► both from unreliable sources, but I'm still very curious.

00:32:26 ◼   ► I mean, what have you guys seen like out in the wild,

00:32:29 ◼   ► when you've seen people with iPhone 6s,

00:32:30 ◼   ► what is your ratio of spotting 6+s to 6s?

00:32:33 ◼   ► - I don't go outside.

00:32:34 ◼   ► - Chicken salad, nobody in line at the deli has a...

00:32:38 ◼   ► - I have not seen a single 6+ in the deli.

00:32:41 ◼   ► - Yeah, I've seen a handful of 6+s.

00:32:46 ◼   ► Is that true?

00:32:48 ◼   ► I think I've seen only one or two,

00:32:50 ◼   ► and I know a handful of people that have them.

00:32:53 ◼   ► And I remember when I was asking around,

00:32:56 ◼   ► around the time that everyone was making purchases,

00:32:59 ◼   ► so I was asking around amongst all of our friends,

00:33:02 ◼   ► like Mike Hurley and Ben Thompson and Ray Ritchie

00:33:05 ◼   ► and all of them.

00:33:06 ◼   ► At that point, I would say it was like two third sixes,

00:33:11 ◼   ► one third six pluses, although I do believe

00:33:14 ◼   ► some of these people have relented and gone to six

00:33:17 ◼   ► from 6 Plus.

00:33:19 ◼   ► So I'd say it's not 6 to 1, but certainly a few to not many,

00:33:26 ◼   ► if that makes any sense.

00:33:28 ◼   ► First time I saw a 6 Plus in person

00:33:29 ◼   ► was this weekend when I went into the Apple Store

00:33:31 ◼   ► to look at the 5K iMac.

00:33:33 ◼   ► And I've seen lots of 6s in person

00:33:35 ◼   ► from co-workers and people walking around,

00:33:39 ◼   ► but had never seen a 6 Plus before.

00:33:41 ◼   ► There you go, science from accidentaltechpodcast.

00:33:43 ◼   ► All right.

00:33:44 ◼   ► Yeah.

00:33:44 ◼   ► Anyway, so the bottom line, we still have no idea.

00:33:46 ◼   ► And yeah, and I'm still curious to know.

00:33:51 ◼   ► Maybe Apple will tell us, who knows, someday.

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00:36:07 ◼   ► So Marco, you recently released an update to Overcast, and I'd like to hear about

00:36:12 ◼   ► that, but most specifically I'd like to hear about this CarPlay thing that apparently

00:36:17 ◼   ► you've added.

00:36:18 ◼   ► Yes, I added CarPlay.

00:36:20 ◼   ► All right, moving on.

00:36:22 ◼   ► So, Microsoft, no, so how did that come to be?

00:36:26 ◼   ► Because my understanding of CarPlay is that's not the sort of thing that you can just decide

00:36:30 ◼   ► you want to be a part of.

00:36:32 ◼   ► So how did that happen?

00:36:36 ◼   ► What are you willing to share?

00:36:38 ◼   ► - Well, I started asking people at Apple,

00:36:41 ◼   ► how do I become a CarPlay app?

00:36:42 ◼   ► And over time, I eventually got to the right person

00:36:46 ◼   ► and got through the process.

00:36:49 ◼   ► - That was a much less exciting story than I owe.

00:36:54 ◼   ► - It was a pretty unexciting process, to be honest.

00:36:56 ◼   ► I mean, I'm not sure if I can really reveal the details,

00:36:58 ◼   ► but they're not that exciting.

00:37:00 ◼   ► I asked around for a long time and eventually got in.

00:37:05 ◼   ► That's the story, that's it.

00:37:07 ◼   ► - So how did you get, you posted a picture

00:37:09 ◼   ► of the little like screen, car screen thingy

00:37:13 ◼   ► that you have hooked up to a converter

00:37:16 ◼   ► so you can feed it 12 volts DC.

00:37:18 ◼   ► What is that?

00:37:19 ◼   ► Why did you buy it?

00:37:20 ◼   ► Was it a recommended thing?

00:37:21 ◼   ► Did it come as part of the program?

00:37:24 ◼   ► All that stuff.

00:37:26 ◼   ► - It is exactly as boring as of a story

00:37:28 ◼   ► as you would imagine.

00:37:30 ◼   ► I wanted to test on real CarPlay hardware

00:37:32 ◼   ► before I released it.

00:37:34 ◼   ► So I went to Best Buy and bought the cheapest car radio

00:37:37 ◼   ► that supported CarPlay,

00:37:39 ◼   ► and I bought a cheap 12 volt power supply on Amazon

00:37:41 ◼   ► for 20 bucks, and I brought it home,

00:37:44 ◼   ► plugged it in and tested it.

00:37:45 ◼   ► - Does your car support CarPlay?

00:37:47 ◼   ► Did any of your cars support it?

00:37:48 ◼   ► - No.

00:37:49 ◼   ► - Oh, so you couldn't actually use the car.

00:37:50 ◼   ► It wasn't just a matter of you didn't want to be sitting

00:37:51 ◼   ► in a garage with your car or whatever.

00:37:54 ◼   ► You wanted to have it on your desk,

00:37:55 ◼   ► but you don't even have anything we can use.

00:37:56 ◼   ► So this is a feature you're not even going to use yourself.

00:37:59 ◼   ► The only place you're ever gonna use it

00:38:00 ◼   ► is on your desk in front of this little screen.

00:38:02 ◼   ► - Correct.

00:38:03 ◼   ► I did it because the effort to reward ratio,

00:38:08 ◼   ► I thought was worth it.

00:38:10 ◼   ► It was very low effort.

00:38:12 ◼   ► You know, it was a lot of asking,

00:38:14 ◼   ► but that's like, you know,

00:38:15 ◼   ► you send an email every few months.

00:38:16 ◼   ► I mean, it wasn't that big of a problem.

00:38:17 ◼   ► But then the actual implementation of it

00:38:21 ◼   ► is very, very simple, because CarPlay apps are limited.

00:38:24 ◼   ► The APIs that you use as a CarPlay app are public.

00:38:28 ◼   ► You can go see them right now.

00:38:30 ◼   ► it's the MP Playable Content Manager, I think.

00:38:34 ◼   ► That's the CarPlay API for third-party audio apps.

00:38:38 ◼   ► So, you know, and the Apple program

00:38:39 ◼   ► simply gets you approved to use that

00:38:41 ◼   ► and to be integrated properly with the CarPlay receivers,

00:38:44 ◼   ► like to appear on their home screen and everything.

00:38:46 ◼   ► The interface that your app has to CarPlay

00:38:49 ◼   ► is very, very simple.

00:38:51 ◼   ► If you look at the MP content,

00:38:52 ◼   ► or MP Playable Content Manager thing, that's it.

00:38:54 ◼   ► Like that is, you basically provide a hierarchical menu,

00:38:58 ◼   ► like the old iPods where you have items

00:39:00 ◼   ► and then you click on the item and it says,

00:39:01 ◼   ► all right, now you're at this level of the tree

00:39:03 ◼   ► and what are the items for this level of the tree

00:39:05 ◼   ► and is this one playable or not

00:39:07 ◼   ► or does it pop under their menu?

00:39:08 ◼   ► And that's about it, it's very, very simple.

00:39:11 ◼   ► So because of that, it's actually very easy to test.

00:39:14 ◼   ► I don't feel that I need to be using this myself full time

00:39:17 ◼   ► to really make sure it's working properly.

00:39:20 ◼   ► I think it's the kind of thing I can test only occasionally

00:39:21 ◼   ► and it works just fine.

00:39:23 ◼   ► That's about it and I don't know how many

00:39:25 ◼   ► carplay compatible vehicles and head units

00:39:29 ◼   ► are out there yet, I have no idea.

00:39:30 ◼   ► I'm sure it's not a huge number,

00:39:33 ◼   ► but it was relatively easy to do,

00:39:35 ◼   ► and for the people who do have it, it matters quite a bit.

00:39:39 ◼   ► So, and I was, you know, one of the reasons

00:39:41 ◼   ► why I kept asking Apple about this is because,

00:39:45 ◼   ► you know, I was interested from the beginning,

00:39:46 ◼   ► but whenever the carplay stuff first started

00:39:48 ◼   ► becoming available to customers,

00:39:50 ◼   ► I think it was like two months ago or three months ago,

00:39:52 ◼   ► It was fairly recent, but ever since that point,

00:39:56 ◼   ► I've had people asking me on Twitter almost every day,

00:39:59 ◼   ► "Hey, why don't you support CarPlay?"

00:40:00 ◼   ► Like, the handful of people who have CarPlay radios,

00:40:04 ◼   ► apparently a big portion of them used Overcast

00:40:06 ◼   ► and were very upset that I wasn't supported properly

00:40:08 ◼   ► on there yet.

00:40:10 ◼   ► So again, it matters a lot to a small number of people

00:40:13 ◼   ► and it was very easy to do, so that's why I did it.

00:40:16 ◼   ► - So I've forgotten so much about CarPlay.

00:40:17 ◼   ► It requires you to connect with a wire still

00:40:20 ◼   ► or can you do a wireless thing?

00:40:21 ◼   ► I believe it's wired only.

00:40:23 ◼   ► I mean the radio, honestly I don't know that much about it.

00:40:25 ◼   ► The radio I got, which is the Pioneer AppRadio 4,

00:40:28 ◼   ► which is now, it's called the AppRadio 4 in so many places

00:40:32 ◼   ► except the box or any part of the Pioneer website,

00:40:35 ◼   ► where it's called the SPH-DA120.

00:40:37 ◼   ► You know, this is great consumer electronic stuff.

00:40:40 ◼   ► People keep asking me if I recommend that one.

00:40:42 ◼   ► The answer is I have no idea.

00:40:43 ◼   ► I've literally only used it for this purpose.

00:40:46 ◼   ► I find most third party car radios to be pretty tacky

00:40:51 ◼   ► and kind of overly happy with things like blue LEDs

00:40:55 ◼   ► and ugly menus.

00:40:56 ◼   ► (laughing)

00:40:56 ◼   ► And this is no exception.

00:40:59 ◼   ► So I'm just not a good person to ask about that.

00:41:02 ◼   ► So I have no idea, I cannot,

00:41:04 ◼   ► and because I'm not using it in a car,

00:41:06 ◼   ► I can't tell you about things like the utility

00:41:08 ◼   ► of the other functions.

00:41:09 ◼   ► - And so does it have a USB connector

00:41:11 ◼   ► and you're just connecting an Apple USB lightning thing

00:41:13 ◼   ► in it and that's all there is to it?

00:41:15 ◼   ► - That's exactly it.

00:41:16 ◼   ► - All right, and for the CarPlay thing,

00:41:18 ◼   ► could you have basically implemented

00:41:20 ◼   ► all this functionality before getting approval from Apple?

00:41:23 ◼   ► And like is the thing you got from Apple simply permission

00:41:26 ◼   ► to upload an app to the App Store that they won't reject

00:41:28 ◼   ► because it uses the CarPlay APIs?

00:41:30 ◼   ► - Yes, and I did.

00:41:32 ◼   ► In fact, I wrote this code months ago when the CarPlay API,

00:41:35 ◼   ► in fact, this code was in Overcast 1.0,

00:41:38 ◼   ► it just was inactive.

00:41:40 ◼   ► Because at the time, when the AMP Playable Content Manager

00:41:44 ◼   ► API first came out, CarPlay wasn't,

00:41:47 ◼   ► I don't think it was officially announced,

00:41:49 ◼   ► or like it was announced at the same event,

00:41:50 ◼   ► but the documentation of that, where it now says,

00:41:53 ◼   ► this is for CarPlay, didn't explain it.

00:41:56 ◼   ► It just said, this is for certain types of AV components

00:42:00 ◼   ► and receivers and everything.

00:42:01 ◼   ► So I thought, I wonder if there are a special

00:42:04 ◼   ► made for iPod receiver, where if there's a home theater

00:42:08 ◼   ► receiver that can display this hierarchical menu

00:42:10 ◼   ► I'm creating.

00:42:11 ◼   ► So I thought there was gonna be something else out there

00:42:14 ◼   ► besides CarPlay that could show this,

00:42:16 ◼   ► maybe in homes or whatever.

00:42:17 ◼   ► So I thought maybe I should get in on that

00:42:19 ◼   ► and make sure that I work properly on those things.

00:42:22 ◼   ► So I wrote all this code months ago

00:42:23 ◼   ► and had no way to test it 'cause I had no hardware

00:42:26 ◼   ► that would actually interact with it.

00:42:27 ◼   ► And nothing, I couldn't find any information on it,

00:42:30 ◼   ► so I just, I basically commented it out.

00:42:32 ◼   ► (laughs)

00:42:33 ◼   ► I just didn't instantiate the class that manages this

00:42:36 ◼   ► in my code in versions 1.0 through 1.04.

00:42:41 ◼   ► - Well, okay, I really thought there was gonna be

00:42:43 ◼   ► a lot more drama there.

00:42:44 ◼   ► - You think like, you would think that if Apple

00:42:47 ◼   ► really interested in getting like why would why would it be this process that it takes you months

00:42:51 ◼   ► because of you know don't you think it would be just as easy to join the CarPlay thing as it is

00:42:58 ◼   ► to upload an app to the App Store like the App Store was successful because hey anybody with

00:43:02 ◼   ► a couple bucks can sign up as a developer write an app with our free tools and upload it and now

00:43:07 ◼   ► you're on the App Store and there you go whereas CarPlay seems like a much harder system to get

00:43:13 ◼   ► into and it doesn't make any sense if Apple's interested in car playing becoming a thing,

00:43:17 ◼   ► but maybe they're not, maybe this is like the version 1.0 and they're not that interested

00:43:20 ◼   ► in getting too many people to fiddle with it, I don't know.

00:43:23 ◼   ► The problem with car stuff is there's major concerns with safety and driver distraction,

00:43:29 ◼   ► and secondarily there's also a lot of laws, and the laws vary in different countries and

00:43:34 ◼   ► sometimes even different states. The laws vary on what kind of interaction is legal

00:43:40 ◼   ► to provide to a driver while the car's in motion,

00:43:43 ◼   ► whether animations, any kind of moving content

00:43:47 ◼   ► is permitted or not permitted in certain contexts

00:43:49 ◼   ► and certain places.

00:43:50 ◼   ► All these, there's so many regulations for,

00:43:53 ◼   ► and just simply just concerns for safety,

00:43:56 ◼   ► because this is pretty serious stuff.

00:43:59 ◼   ► You don't wanna have somebody simulating Angry Birds

00:44:03 ◼   ► in the dashboard display by changing the item artwork

00:44:06 ◼   ► every half second or whatever.

00:44:07 ◼   ► there's like all these crazy ways

00:44:09 ◼   ► that these kind of systems could be abused.

00:44:12 ◼   ► Certainly app review could probably catch a lot of that,

00:44:15 ◼   ► but I don't know how much app review is testing CarPlay.

00:44:18 ◼   ► I can understand if Apple wants to be cautious.

00:44:21 ◼   ► Like I can understand why this might not be

00:44:24 ◼   ► open to everybody.

00:44:25 ◼   ► - I don't know, it still seems kind of weird to me.

00:44:27 ◼   ► Like you said, that's the whole point of app review

00:44:29 ◼   ► and if they're not, you know,

00:44:31 ◼   ► if app review is the bottleneck,

00:44:32 ◼   ► like what's the point of, you know,

00:44:35 ◼   ► if this is a thing that they want to happen,

00:44:36 ◼   ► They should be paying more money for more people

00:44:39 ◼   ► to review more carefully.

00:44:40 ◼   ► Like, there are medical applications in the App Store.

00:44:44 ◼   ► Somehow that seems OK.

00:44:46 ◼   ► But I don't know.

00:44:47 ◼   ► It just-- it's not a formula for success.

00:44:50 ◼   ► If Apple really says like, if CarPlay had to make a strategy

00:44:54 ◼   ► statement, and it was like CarPlay

00:44:56 ◼   ► in every car in the world by 10 years or whatever,

00:45:00 ◼   ► like that's obviously not what they're going for.

00:45:02 ◼   ► It just seems like they are--

00:45:03 ◼   ► it seems like a hobby, like Apple TV used to be.

00:45:05 ◼   ► Like, we have a car solution, it's a thing,

00:45:08 ◼   ► it's in Ferraris I guess, and also Hondas maybe,

00:45:12 ◼   ► but we're not that into it, you know.

00:45:14 ◼   ► 'Cause there is, like you said, there is that

00:45:16 ◼   ► sort of adversarial, sort of standoffish relationship

00:45:19 ◼   ► with the car makers themselves trying to sort out

00:45:22 ◼   ► how are we going to arrive at car interiors

00:45:24 ◼   ► that aren't terrible, as we discussed at length on neutral.

00:45:28 ◼   ► - Right, well and also like, you know, similar to

00:45:31 ◼   ► Like all the concerns that Apple or app makers

00:45:35 ◼   ► should have about liability and safety problems,

00:45:38 ◼   ► the car makers have their own concerns too.

00:45:41 ◼   ► Like if you're driving a BMW using Angry Birds

00:45:44 ◼   ► simulated in CarPlay Art Org and you crash,

00:45:47 ◼   ► so many people are upset about that.

00:45:49 ◼   ► And it's so many people's problem.

00:45:51 ◼   ► You know, it's obviously your problem in a lot of ways.

00:45:55 ◼   ► Your family might have to deal with things.

00:45:57 ◼   ► But it's Apple's problem, it's the app's problem,

00:45:59 ◼   ► it's BMW's problem.

00:46:00 ◼   ► Like, the bad PR and lawsuits and everything can fly

00:46:04 ◼   ► in all those different directions.

00:46:05 ◼   ► Everyone has to really cover their own butts here.

00:46:08 ◼   ► And I really can't blame anybody in this situation

00:46:11 ◼   ► for being overly cautious,

00:46:14 ◼   ► because it is something that should be taken seriously.

00:46:17 ◼   ► - Yeah, but so many of these things are covered over by like

00:46:20 ◼   ► the screens that come up when I start my car

00:46:22 ◼   ► that are like, press OK to agree that you shouldn't look

00:46:26 ◼   ► at this screen when you're driving, and if you do,

00:46:29 ◼   ► the screen goes away at its own,

00:46:30 ◼   ► You don't actually have to press like it, but like the little like one screen

00:46:34 ◼   ► EULA type thing or just it's it's meaningless. Nobody reads it. It just becomes a constant annoyance

00:46:40 ◼   ► This is actually one one of the things that makes

00:46:42 ◼   ► One of the many things that makes the electronics and cars annoying like the ass covering messages

00:46:48 ◼   ► That you're just gonna see for the entire life of the car. They will have no effect on

00:46:53 ◼   ► How you use the car and we'll just and probably no effect legally speaking because it's not like it absolves anybody from you

00:47:00 ◼   ► You know, anyway, it's stupid, I don't like it.

00:47:03 ◼   ► - Yeah, my car shows me a license agreement

00:47:05 ◼   ► every time I start it.

00:47:06 ◼   ► - That's so bad.

00:47:07 ◼   ► - Press agree to drive.

00:47:08 ◼   ► - Yeah.

00:47:09 ◼   ► (laughs)

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00:49:54 ◼   ► - All right, so today was somewhat unexpectedly,

00:49:59 ◼   ► or at least for me, big day in my world

00:50:01 ◼   ► because Microsoft has open sourced,

00:50:04 ◼   ► or has said they're going to open source

00:50:06 ◼   ► a considerable portion of .NET.

00:50:08 ◼   ► And not only open source it,

00:50:09 ◼   ► but bring it to be cross platform.

00:50:11 ◼   ► And this is, to me, a pretty darn big deal.

00:50:15 ◼   ► And it's probably not gonna change

00:50:17 ◼   ► my day-to-day life very much,

00:50:20 ◼   ► But it's a very interesting statement from a company

00:50:24 ◼   ► that very much didn't believe that there were platforms

00:50:27 ◼   ► other than Windows.

00:50:29 ◼   ► And so what they did today is they said

00:50:31 ◼   ► they're going to open source a few additional components

00:50:34 ◼   ► of .NET and the best write-up I found

00:50:37 ◼   ► in the few minutes I had to look at this

00:50:39 ◼   ► was by Miguel de Iqaza, I hope I pronounced that right.

00:50:42 ◼   ► He is the head and I believe founder of the Mono Project,

00:50:46 ◼   ► which is a project to take .NET and make it cross-platform.

00:50:50 ◼   ► And what they were doing was,

00:50:51 ◼   ► what's the term for when you don't look at

00:50:53 ◼   ► any sort of source and you don't reverse compile

00:50:57 ◼   ► or anything like that, you just--

00:50:57 ◼   ► - Clean room, reverse engineer, clean room, whatever.

00:51:00 ◼   ► - Thank you, sir.

00:51:01 ◼   ► So they were doing a clean room version of .NET.

00:51:04 ◼   ► And then over time, as Microsoft has open sourced

00:51:06 ◼   ► little bits here and there,

00:51:08 ◼   ► they would incorporate those as licensing would permit.

00:51:12 ◼   ► Well, we'll put a link to Miguel's post in the show notes,

00:51:16 ◼   ► but basically he breaks it down.

00:51:19 ◼   ► And there are three things that are being open source.

00:51:22 ◼   ► .NET framework libraries, .NET Core framework libraries,

00:51:25 ◼   ► and the Ryujit, which sounds like Hadouken to me,

00:51:28 ◼   ► but anyway, VM.

00:51:30 ◼   ► And so the framework class libraries is basically--

00:51:33 ◼   ► so if you think of .NET as both a series of languages

00:51:37 ◼   ► and then the class library that these languages sit on top of,

00:51:44 ◼   ► or I guess maybe vice versa, for them

00:51:46 ◼   ► to release the .NET Framework classes,

00:51:50 ◼   ► that's a really big damn deal.

00:51:52 ◼   ► And so if you want to see how all of the foundational stuff

00:51:57 ◼   ► in .NET is implemented, you can go and check it out.

00:52:01 ◼   ► And so they're open sourcing .NET Framework class

00:52:03 ◼   ► libraries, .NET Core, which as Miguel says,

00:52:06 ◼   ► The .NET Core is a redesigned version of .NET that is based on the simplified version of

00:52:10 ◼   ► the class libraries as well as a design that allows for .NET to be incorporated into applications.

00:52:15 ◼   ► And this should sound a lot like, and I'm going to get the, is it Clang or LLVM that's

00:52:21 ◼   ► leveraged within Xcode, not just for compilation, but for just-in-time stuff?

00:52:26 ◼   ► It's not quite, I think it's just the underlying libraries that power both the Clang compiler

00:52:33 ◼   ► and Xcode.

00:52:34 ◼   ► I don't know what you call this library.

00:52:35 ◼   ► Someone probably knows.

00:52:36 ◼   ► - That's right.

00:52:37 ◼   ► The point is you can build tools that leverage the compiler,

00:52:42 ◼   ► not on, like in IDE, for example.

00:52:44 ◼   ► So anyway, so all this stuff is gonna show up on GitHub.

00:52:46 ◼   ► I was poking around GitHub earlier tonight,

00:52:48 ◼   ► and not all of it's there yet,

00:52:50 ◼   ► but it's certainly going to arrive there.

00:52:53 ◼   ► And there's also a good post,

00:52:55 ◼   ► the official Microsoft blog post about all of this,

00:52:58 ◼   ► and it talks about, or it's kind of almost an FAQ,

00:53:02 ◼   ► Why do we open source .NET Core?

00:53:05 ◼   ► Why are we doing it on GitHub?

00:53:08 ◼   ► And one of the things they said was, and this is from the blog post, "As a principle, we

00:53:13 ◼   ► don't want to ask the community to come to where we are.

00:53:16 ◼   ► Instead we want to go to where the community already is."

00:53:19 ◼   ► And so they're going to GitHub.

00:53:21 ◼   ► All this stuff is going to show up.

00:53:23 ◼   ► And it's funny because on the one side, from my day to day, like I said earlier, I don't

00:53:28 ◼   ► I don't think it's really gonna change a darn thing,

00:53:30 ◼   ► except maybe I could use .NET on OS X without using Mono,

00:53:35 ◼   ► but I mean, whatever, I don't really think,

00:53:37 ◼   ► know why I would wanna do that.

00:53:39 ◼   ► But I think it indicates a pretty big shift in Microsoft

00:53:43 ◼   ► away from the Windows is everything

00:53:46 ◼   ► and there's nothing else in the world mentality.

00:53:48 ◼   ► And that's what I think I'm most amped up about.

00:53:51 ◼   ► - So what does this make possible

00:53:53 ◼   ► that wasn't possible before?

00:53:55 ◼   ► Because Mono was already cross-platform.

00:53:57 ◼   ► - Sure.

00:53:58 ◼   ► - So anything that, if you could say,

00:54:00 ◼   ► well now I can use C# and .NET to write applications

00:54:05 ◼   ► that run on platforms other than the window.

00:54:09 ◼   ► You already kind of could with Mono.

00:54:11 ◼   ► What can, I don't quite under, other than,

00:54:13 ◼   ► all those things that Mono had to,

00:54:18 ◼   ► Xamarin had to clean room, reverse engineer,

00:54:20 ◼   ► and re-implement that now they don't have to anymore.

00:54:22 ◼   ► They can just take the actual source and incorporate it.

00:54:24 ◼   ► But does this make anything new possible

00:54:26 ◼   ► that wasn't possible before?

00:54:27 ◼   ► or feasible like it was possible before,

00:54:29 ◼   ► but you'd be worried about how supported it was.

00:54:32 ◼   ► Microsoft said it's gonna be officially supported.

00:54:34 ◼   ► - I think you hit the nail on the head.

00:54:36 ◼   ► It's that it's no longer third party, it's now first party.

00:54:39 ◼   ► And to go back to Miguel's blog post, and I'm quoting now,

00:54:42 ◼   ► we have a project underway that,

00:54:45 ◼   ► actually let me back up, I'm sorry.

00:54:47 ◼   ► Mono will be able to use as much as it wants

00:54:49 ◼   ► from this project.

00:54:50 ◼   ► We have a project underway that already does this.

00:54:53 ◼   ► We are replacing chunks of Mono code

00:54:54 ◼   ► that was either incomplete, buggy,

00:54:56 ◼   ► or not as fully featured as it should be with Microsoft's code.

00:55:00 ◼   ► So it certainly will improve Mono's robustness, reliability,

00:55:05 ◼   ► decrease in bugs, et cetera.

00:55:07 ◼   ► But on the surface, I agree with you, John,

00:55:09 ◼   ► that it doesn't really necessarily enable anything

00:55:12 ◼   ► that wasn't there already.

00:55:14 ◼   ► The only thing I can think of that might be a bit different

00:55:17 ◼   ► is I haven't looked closely at Mono or Xamarin in a long time.

00:55:21 ◼   ► But if you wanted to hypothetically run an ASP.NET website on something other than IIS,

00:55:30 ◼   ► I would assume that as part of this open sourcing of, among other things, ASP.NET, you could

00:55:38 ◼   ► do that on top of Apache or something like that without necessarily having to leverage

00:55:43 ◼   ► Mono.

00:55:44 ◼   ► I think Mono has done this at least in part in the past, but certainly it should be easier

00:55:48 ◼   ► now or well in the future.

00:55:49 ◼   ► - Yeah, that was my next question,

00:55:51 ◼   ► but it's like not included in this,

00:55:53 ◼   ► if I'm reading it correctly,

00:55:55 ◼   ► is any of the sort of the GUI libraries

00:55:56 ◼   ► that you use to make applications for Windows.

00:55:59 ◼   ► - Right, Windows Forms I've not seen any mention of,

00:56:01 ◼   ► and so I believe you are correct.

00:56:03 ◼   ► - So this is all kind of faceless server-side stuff,

00:56:05 ◼   ► and then for the server-side stuff, it's like,

00:56:06 ◼   ► well, sorry, so I can, you know, ASP.NET is here.

00:56:09 ◼   ► If I can build something,

00:56:11 ◼   ► I don't even know what you build for ASP.NET,

00:56:13 ◼   ► but like, and I know what the API looks like,

00:56:15 ◼   ► but I don't understand the deployment outside of IIS.

00:56:17 ◼   ► Do you just build like a library that gets loaded?

00:56:20 ◼   ► I don't know, I have no idea.

00:56:21 ◼   ► I've never done anything involving .NET inside Apache.

00:56:24 ◼   ► - Well, that's the thing, and I'm not sure either,

00:56:25 ◼   ► but the theory is is that there's nothing stopping you

00:56:28 ◼   ► from writing some sort of glue between Apache

00:56:31 ◼   ► and the ASP.NET DLLs or whatever output

00:56:35 ◼   ► that comes from that.

00:56:37 ◼   ► - Yeah, Horatio Boston in the chat room says

00:56:39 ◼   ► that one new thing that's possible

00:56:41 ◼   ► is that you could use Visual Studio

00:56:43 ◼   ► to build something that doesn't run out of Windows.

00:56:45 ◼   ► So you can build an executable that runs on OS X.

00:56:49 ◼   ► And that's the thing with this kind of like,

00:56:52 ◼   ► if you want to use Xcode, you have to use a Mac.

00:56:54 ◼   ► If you want to--

00:56:55 ◼   ► I think this is still the case for all these open source

00:56:58 ◼   ► components.

00:56:59 ◼   ► Can you use anything other than Visual Studio or the Xamarin

00:57:02 ◼   ► stuff to build this?

00:57:04 ◼   ► Is there like a Mac command line thing,

00:57:06 ◼   ► or you could just run like-- there's got to be, I guess.

00:57:08 ◼   ► Well, I don't think there is, but they're open sourcing--

00:57:11 ◼   ► I believe they're open sourcing Roslyn,

00:57:12 ◼   ► which is their compiler stack.

00:57:14 ◼   ► - They already did that, but I was wondering if,

00:57:16 ◼   ► practically speaking, does that mean

00:57:18 ◼   ► that you can get a command prompt and a bunch of files

00:57:20 ◼   ► and start compiling source code on your Mac

00:57:22 ◼   ► that runs on your Mac, or did you need,

00:57:24 ◼   ► basically, do you need Windows?

00:57:25 ◼   ► Do you need Visual Studio, 'cause Visual Studio is the IDE,

00:57:28 ◼   ► and that's what you need to compile this stuff.

00:57:31 ◼   ► I don't know how far people have gone

00:57:32 ◼   ► in taking the open source compiler

00:57:33 ◼   ► and trying to make it so that you could actually

00:57:35 ◼   ► do development of faceless, non-GUI applications

00:57:38 ◼   ► on the .NET stack using only a Mac

00:57:40 ◼   ► and not having a Windows machine anywhere.

00:57:42 ◼   ► - Right, I understand the question,

00:57:43 ◼   ► And as far as I know, the only Mac native compiler binary that exists is mono's compiler.

00:57:50 ◼   ► But I mean, you've got the entire source of Roslin.

00:57:53 ◼   ► So in principle, you could, although it is self-hosted, so yeah, I guess that is a little

00:57:58 ◼   ► weird.

00:57:59 ◼   ► Yeah, I don't know how that would work.

00:58:00 ◼   ► But I'm sure someone is or has done it.

00:58:03 ◼   ► I don't know.

00:58:05 ◼   ► But this is interesting.

00:58:06 ◼   ► It's certainly an interesting move.

00:58:07 ◼   ► It's something that I didn't expect from Microsoft.

00:58:09 ◼   ► Even though this has sort of been going on for a while now, it took me a little bit by

00:58:13 ◼   ► surprise that this much was going to get open sourced as quickly.

00:58:17 ◼   ► And the only somewhat crummy thing about it, which I understand, but they said publicly

00:58:22 ◼   ► in one of these posts that this isn't about, for a lot of the projects that they're open

00:58:29 ◼   ► sourcing, this isn't about asking for poll requests and making a true community project.

00:58:34 ◼   ► It was more just saying, hey, if you want to fork it,

00:58:37 ◼   ► here it is, but we're going to continue forward in our own way

00:58:41 ◼   ► and that's the way it's going to be.

00:58:42 ◼   ► I think this is heartening in the same way

00:58:44 ◼   ► that Apple's recent sort of opening up and doing things

00:58:48 ◼   ► that previously they seemed not interested in doing,

00:58:51 ◼   ► even extensions or third party keyboards or whatever in iOS.

00:58:54 ◼   ► This is another thing that people have always wanted

00:58:56 ◼   ► Microsoft to do, like take the core part of your stack

00:58:59 ◼   ► and make it open source for the same reasons that--

00:59:01 ◼   ► kind of for the same reasons that Apple has open sourced

00:59:04 ◼   ► the core part of its OS and everything,

00:59:05 ◼   ► although hopefully with better results.

00:59:07 ◼   ► And that the lower level stuff, there's

00:59:11 ◼   ► not much competitive advantage to keeping that close source.

00:59:14 ◼   ► And there's a lot of advantage to people developing

00:59:16 ◼   ► on your platform and to you as a platform maker

00:59:18 ◼   ► to make it open source.

00:59:20 ◼   ► Even if you don't get that much benefit of other people,

00:59:24 ◼   ► every little bit helps.

00:59:25 ◼   ► And it just makes it feel like it's a development environment

00:59:29 ◼   ► where you can see what's going on.

00:59:30 ◼   ► The fewer black boxes, the better.

00:59:32 ◼   ► Like if you're debugging something,

00:59:34 ◼   ► it would be nice to be able to have the source code

00:59:36 ◼   ► to all the stuff you're debugging.

00:59:37 ◼   ► Obviously that's not the case on the Mac,

00:59:39 ◼   ► it never has been, it's not the case on iOS.

00:59:41 ◼   ► There's some parts of it that are open source,

00:59:42 ◼   ► but then eventually you get into Cocoa and UIKit

00:59:44 ◼   ► and AppKit and all that stuff.

00:59:45 ◼   ► And that's not open source,

00:59:46 ◼   ► and I bet that would be great if that was open source too.

00:59:48 ◼   ► But like, so you have to balance,

00:59:50 ◼   ► or these companies think they have to balance,

00:59:52 ◼   ► what source do we keep closed,

00:59:54 ◼   ► and what source do we open up,

00:59:55 ◼   ► because there's no advantage just to keeping it closed.

00:59:57 ◼   ► And Microsoft, I'm not surprised to see this,

01:00:00 ◼   ► because it seems like Microsoft has long since realized

01:00:02 ◼   ► that keeping this stuff,

01:00:04 ◼   ► like as people stop paying attention to you,

01:00:06 ◼   ► as you are no longer the big dog in the market

01:00:09 ◼   ► and you're not like, oh, Microsoft,

01:00:11 ◼   ► they rule the entire PC industry.

01:00:12 ◼   ► Like they don't anymore.

01:00:13 ◼   ► Like mobile is more important.

01:00:14 ◼   ► Microsoft is not on mobile.

01:00:16 ◼   ► If you continue to act like

01:00:18 ◼   ► you are the most important company

01:00:21 ◼   ► and you're never gonna show your crown jewels,

01:00:22 ◼   ► it's making you less and less relevant.

01:00:25 ◼   ► If you want to bring people back to your camp,

01:00:27 ◼   ► you have to be more open.

01:00:29 ◼   ► It's not a power play.

01:00:30 ◼   ► It's more of a realization of the new shape of the market.

01:00:33 ◼   ► And I think it's helpful.

01:00:34 ◼   ► Like you're saying, how will this affect your job?

01:00:36 ◼   ► Maybe you'll come across something

01:00:38 ◼   ► where you have some bug

01:00:38 ◼   ► and you can't figure out what's going on

01:00:40 ◼   ► and it'll be useful to be able to step through

01:00:42 ◼   ► in the debugger a bunch of bottom level .NET code,

01:00:46 ◼   ► stepping through the source.

01:00:47 ◼   ► Maybe you could have already done that anyway,

01:00:48 ◼   ► because I think the source was already available

01:00:50 ◼   ► because, but it wasn't available in a way

01:00:52 ◼   ► that was open source that could be integrated.

01:00:53 ◼   ► So I don't know. - Correct.

01:00:55 ◼   ► - Microsoft is just hoping that people will build on this

01:00:58 ◼   ► and it will become a foundation for lots of other projects.

01:01:00 ◼   ► I mean, the best thing that could happen to them

01:01:02 ◼   ► is someone finally takes this core stuff

01:01:05 ◼   ► and builds some great new thing on top of it

01:01:07 ◼   ► because they can and they couldn't before.

01:01:09 ◼   ► Like they didn't wanna have to deal with that stuff.

01:01:10 ◼   ► That we need a language runtime and we need a good compiler

01:01:15 ◼   ► and we wanna be able to do our development in a nice IDE

01:01:17 ◼   ► and we're gonna use that as a jumping off point

01:01:19 ◼   ► to build some bigger, better thing.

01:01:20 ◼   ► But I don't know what the odds of that happening are,

01:01:23 ◼   ► but they're non-zero now, I guess.

01:01:26 ◼   ► So just for grins and giggles, let's say that Swift is not a thing.

01:01:31 ◼   ► It's not even in progress.

01:01:33 ◼   ► Would Apple have used C# and/or .NET to become what is now Swift?

01:01:40 ◼   ► I think the answer is absolutely not because they want total control.

01:01:43 ◼   ► But let's assume that...

01:01:45 ◼   ► Well, they could have total control with this, couldn't they?

01:01:47 ◼   ► Isn't it?

01:01:48 ◼   ► I think there's going to be pieces that are missing.

01:01:50 ◼   ► In the same way that, shoot, what is it?

01:01:54 ◼   ► Is it Darwin is the open source project,

01:01:56 ◼   ► but mock, or am I getting that backwards?

01:01:59 ◼   ► You know what I'm thinking of

01:02:00 ◼   ► where you could build most of OS X.

01:02:01 ◼   ► - Well, they're just like the closed source drivers

01:02:03 ◼   ► and everything, like things for ATI

01:02:04 ◼   ► that has proprietary code.

01:02:05 ◼   ► There's a bunch of like legal stuff.

01:02:07 ◼   ► It's not like they're hiding that stuff.

01:02:08 ◼   ► It's just that any code that involves,

01:02:09 ◼   ► anything that involves code that is owned

01:02:12 ◼   ► by companies other than Apple,

01:02:13 ◼   ► like video card makers or even like,

01:02:16 ◼   ► there's a bunch of drivers that aren't open source.

01:02:19 ◼   ► You can't build a Yosemite kernel from the open source

01:02:22 ◼   ► because it's just stuff that's not included in there.

01:02:24 ◼   ► But for ownership, like KHTML was not owned by Apple,

01:02:29 ◼   ► but they took it, forked it, and ran with it.

01:02:31 ◼   ► WebKit is owned by Apple, you know what I mean?

01:02:33 ◼   ► So they could, but I think that Apple would not adopt

01:02:36 ◼   ► this open source or not just because knowing enough

01:02:39 ◼   ► about the people involved in the process,

01:02:41 ◼   ► this is not what they want.

01:02:43 ◼   ► And so it's not so much that, oh, we would have taken .NET

01:02:46 ◼   ► if only it was open source.

01:02:48 ◼   ► Swift is a different direction, right?

01:02:50 ◼   ► Swift is not common language runtime.

01:02:52 ◼   ► It is not garbage collection.

01:02:53 ◼   ► It is so many things that it's not.

01:02:56 ◼   ► So for that reason alone, they wouldn't take it.

01:02:59 ◼   ► But if the current set of people who make these decisions

01:03:03 ◼   ► at Apple did not work at Apple,

01:03:04 ◼   ► but in different set of people who did,

01:03:06 ◼   ► this would have changed the math on can we adopt .NET,

01:03:09 ◼   ► suddenly it'll become a lot more viable.

01:03:11 ◼   ► - Yep, and okay, so I agree with you completely there.

01:03:14 ◼   ► Now, what is this name?

01:03:16 ◼   ► Andy Rubin is just creating Android today.

01:03:19 ◼   ► Android does not exist yet.

01:03:21 ◼   ► Does he still use-- don't call it Java Java?

01:03:24 ◼   ► They picked something that was not owned by them.

01:03:27 ◼   ► It was, at that time, sort of invented by Sun.

01:03:30 ◼   ► And they're in a legal fight with Oracle

01:03:33 ◼   ► over the copywriting APIs.

01:03:35 ◼   ► And even though they're using a different VM

01:03:38 ◼   ► that they wrote themselves, the thing

01:03:41 ◼   ► that they did end up picking, Java,

01:03:42 ◼   ► It's not a clean, they didn't make a clean getaway

01:03:45 ◼   ► with that legally speaking.

01:03:47 ◼   ► So I don't see how .NET is any worse.

01:03:50 ◼   ► - Their official strategy was just steal it,

01:03:52 ◼   ► we'll worry about it later.

01:03:54 ◼   ► - Yeah, well it's like, is it stealing,

01:03:56 ◼   ► 'cause it gets into the whole can you copyright an API,

01:03:58 ◼   ► 'cause they did-- - Excuse me.

01:03:59 ◼   ► Just rip it off, we'll worry about it later.

01:04:01 ◼   ► (laughing)

01:04:02 ◼   ► - It's kind of like a clean room re-implementation,

01:04:04 ◼   ► but it's like, there's a spec,

01:04:06 ◼   ► there's a public spec out there,

01:04:07 ◼   ► we're gonna make our own VM.

01:04:09 ◼   ► I'm assuming they didn't use any source code

01:04:10 ◼   ► from any of the Java virtual machines,

01:04:12 ◼   ► that is their own thing that does things in a different way.

01:04:14 ◼   ► It's all just of like, oh, well,

01:04:15 ◼   ► you implemented this all yourself

01:04:16 ◼   ► and you wrote all your own source code,

01:04:18 ◼   ► but the API, the functions, the parameters,

01:04:20 ◼   ► the, you know, all that, that's copyrighted.

01:04:23 ◼   ► And so they basically did a clean reimplementation of Java.

01:04:26 ◼   ► I don't know what the details are of like,

01:04:28 ◼   ► you can argue about what things got used where,

01:04:30 ◼   ► but I don't like the idea of an API being copy,

01:04:34 ◼   ► a published API being copyrighted.

01:04:37 ◼   ► So I'm not gonna blame Google for doing this,

01:04:40 ◼   ► So practically speaking though, I don't see how .NET,

01:04:44 ◼   ► the current open source .NET could possibly be any worse

01:04:46 ◼   ► than the situation they're currently in with Java.

01:04:48 ◼   ► So, and I think it would be a better choice for them

01:04:51 ◼   ► than Java, 'cause they would have to do less work.

01:04:53 ◼   ► Like they could take the virtual machine

01:04:56 ◼   ► and everything free and clear.

01:04:57 ◼   ► Like it's an open source license.

01:04:58 ◼   ► It's not like they have to re-implement it, right?

01:05:01 ◼   ► - Right, right.

01:05:02 ◼   ► - So, and I also like C# better than Java, so there's that.

01:05:05 ◼   ► - Yep, well, that's the thing is that C#,

01:05:08 ◼   ► I've talked in the past to a handful of people about how C# really is good.

01:05:13 ◼   ► And most worldly developers in the Apple community at least appreciate it, if not agree with

01:05:21 ◼   ► me.

01:05:22 ◼   ► But there's certainly some that are like, "Oh, God, it's Microsoft.

01:05:24 ◼   ► I can't stand it."

01:05:25 ◼   ► No.

01:05:26 ◼   ► And C# really is a really, really great, really robust language.

01:05:30 ◼   ► And even though it tries to be in many ways all things to all people, it actually does

01:05:35 ◼   ► a pretty darn good job of it all in all.

01:05:38 ◼   ► And it's moving forward but not at a breakneck pace.

01:05:42 ◼   ► So it's moving forward in a way that's sustainable.

01:05:45 ◼   ► There's not bugs everywhere, at least in any of the things that I touch in my day-to-day

01:05:49 ◼   ► life.

01:05:50 ◼   ► It's a really robust language.

01:05:51 ◼   ► And as much as I don't have that much love for Microsoft, I really do love C#.

01:05:57 ◼   ► And if I were to just flip a switch and become a full-time Objective-C or Swift developer

01:06:02 ◼   ► tomorrow, there are certainly things about C# that I would miss.

01:06:07 ◼   ► And there's a lot that I really think they got right.

01:06:09 ◼   ► And so I'm very curious to see,

01:06:12 ◼   ► does this change how C# is treated?

01:06:16 ◼   ► Not from a like, oh, it's good or oh, it's bad.

01:06:18 ◼   ► But like you were saying earlier, John,

01:06:20 ◼   ► is someone going to take C#

01:06:22 ◼   ► and really run with it in the future?

01:06:24 ◼   ► Or, I mean, strictly speaking,

01:06:25 ◼   ► I guess you could do that with VB as well.

01:06:27 ◼   ► I mean, .NET is more than just C#.

01:06:29 ◼   ► But I don't know, I'm curious to see what this brings.

01:06:33 ◼   ► - I think it's unlikely because C# is kind of,

01:06:35 ◼   ► Like the reason C# is, I think, nicer than Java

01:06:39 ◼   ► is 'cause it got to learn the lessons of Java.

01:06:41 ◼   ► - Sure. - Right?

01:06:42 ◼   ► So someone went first, made a bunch of mistakes.

01:06:45 ◼   ► C# didn't make those same mistakes.

01:06:47 ◼   ► And I think C# has been developed steadily

01:06:50 ◼   ► with a little bit more singular vision, let's say,

01:06:54 ◼   ► instead of the sort of committee design of Java

01:06:56 ◼   ► seems to be lurching forward

01:06:58 ◼   ► and not quite as confident in a way.

01:07:00 ◼   ► But at this point, both of those languages are of a vintage

01:07:04 ◼   ► that people, like, I'm not gonna say people

01:07:07 ◼   ► are more likely to build something in Swift

01:07:09 ◼   ► if Swift was suddenly open source,

01:07:10 ◼   ► but the kinds of projects that get built,

01:07:14 ◼   ► like the kind of applications it seems like

01:07:17 ◼   ► that the CLR is most appropriate for

01:07:19 ◼   ► is I would get server-side stuff

01:07:21 ◼   ► and like GUI client-side stuff.

01:07:23 ◼   ► But like, I can't imagine the next WebKit killer

01:07:27 ◼   ► being implemented in C# on top of .NET, right?

01:07:32 ◼   ► But just because it seems like it's still,

01:07:34 ◼   ► there's still this thing

01:07:36 ◼   ► and we can't quite get away from it of like,

01:07:38 ◼   ► you're either gonna use C, C++,

01:07:40 ◼   ► or one of these new breed of languages like Swift

01:07:43 ◼   ► that aims to be as fast as them,

01:07:45 ◼   ► but gives you these high level conveniences.

01:07:47 ◼   ► Or as soon as you go up into

01:07:49 ◼   ► something with garbage collection,

01:07:50 ◼   ► like server-side is totally okay with it,

01:07:52 ◼   ► which is weird because server-side is like,

01:07:53 ◼   ► the performance is so demanding there in terms of,

01:07:56 ◼   ► you know, a specific performance profile

01:07:59 ◼   ► is demanding there,

01:08:00 ◼   ► not quite the same thing as a GUI application.

01:08:02 ◼   ► But for I'm thinking of Linux like the open source people. I don't see them latching on to C# as their language

01:08:08 ◼   ► I mean, they're the people who were going crazy with QT and everything

01:08:10 ◼   ► So they still seem to be stuck in sort of a lower level mindset

01:08:13 ◼   ► So I'm not sure maybe

01:08:14 ◼   ► Maybe need one more generation of people to wake up and say I'm gonna write a new great thing and I'm not gonna do in C++

01:08:19 ◼   ► Or C. Why don't I just use C#? It's like we need the infrastructure to be there first

01:08:23 ◼   ► We need like every Linux distribution to come

01:08:25 ◼   ► not just with mono but with like a

01:08:28 ◼   ► more officially supported like

01:08:31 ◼   ► Microsoft-blessed stack that's in sync with Microsoft's code releases to be able to use

01:08:37 ◼   ► C# as your development language.

01:08:39 ◼   ► See, I don't know.

01:08:40 ◼   ► I think a lot of the reason that the Linux community hasn't embraced, like, Mono, for

01:08:44 ◼   ► example, is because there's such a bunch of neckbeards that love C and C++ so damn much.

01:08:50 ◼   ► And granted, I haven't been a participant in the Linux community in seven, eight years,

01:08:55 ◼   ► something like that.

01:08:56 ◼   ► At the time, it seemed like it was all about having a barrier of entry.

01:09:05 ◼   ► And if you weren't like a god at C or C++, then you know what? You're not good enough to be in our cool kid club.

01:09:11 ◼   ► And last I heard, that hasn't really changed, but again, I haven't paid attention in almost a decade.

01:09:16 ◼   ► Yeah, I don't know. Open source is difficult because whenever I think of open source stuff, I don't think of the GUI stuff.

01:09:21 ◼   ► Even though there have been GUI things based on every language you could possibly imagine.

01:09:25 ◼   ► All the way up to including like Tcl or whatever, right?

01:09:28 ◼   ► You know, it's not as if people aren't doing it.

01:09:30 ◼   ► This is just not one unified phase of hell.

01:09:32 ◼   ► There was a, what was the OpenStep port?

01:09:34 ◼   ► What the hell was that called?

01:09:37 ◼   ► - I don't know.

01:09:38 ◼   ► - Anyway, someone ages ago,

01:09:40 ◼   ► Goodoostep, there you go,

01:09:41 ◼   ► ported the OpenStep APIs.

01:09:43 ◼   ► And that's like, what if someone,

01:09:45 ◼   ► what if AppKit was available for Linux?

01:09:47 ◼   ► Boy, that would change things.

01:09:48 ◼   ► Well, AppKit was practically available for Linux

01:09:51 ◼   ► for a long time, but you know,

01:09:54 ◼   ► It wasn't officially sanctioned.

01:09:56 ◼   ► It was a small group of people making it,

01:09:57 ◼   ► and it's not like people are clamoring

01:09:59 ◼   ► to make apps like that.

01:10:00 ◼   ► So the most important things to come out of

01:10:02 ◼   ► sort of the Linux open source community

01:10:04 ◼   ► are things like KHTML and earlier Apache and stuff like that

01:10:09 ◼   ► like faceless applications written in low level languages.

01:10:14 ◼   ► Those are okay, but as soon as you get into anything gooey,

01:10:16 ◼   ► it's like just don't look to the Linux community for any,

01:10:18 ◼   ► or file systems, another example,

01:10:21 ◼   ► coming from ZFS coming from Sun, BTRFS,

01:10:23 ◼   ► Like those things tend to come out of the open source world.

01:10:28 ◼   ► And so if .NET and C# want to help in that regard,

01:10:31 ◼   ► they can give some new tools to that crowd,

01:10:34 ◼   ► but it's not, you don't see anything coming out of there

01:10:37 ◼   ► that's like anything higher level than that.

01:10:39 ◼   ► Can you think of like an exciting thing that is not faceless

01:10:43 ◼   ► that has come out of the open source/Linux community

01:10:47 ◼   ► in the last decade or so that has made an impact

01:10:50 ◼   ► on the wider world of computing?

01:10:53 ◼   ► - Mm, Wireshark, Audacity, both nerdy tools.

01:10:56 ◼   ► - Adium, also a nerdy tool.

01:10:58 ◼   ► - Someone said Git, that's not, that's faceless.

01:11:00 ◼   ► - Yeah, and Git needs a million front ends on it

01:11:03 ◼   ► to make it usable.

01:11:03 ◼   ► - Yeah, and Git should get,

01:11:05 ◼   ► Git is not only a backend in faceless, but it's just gross.

01:11:09 ◼   ► - Like even the Git commands that you use

01:11:11 ◼   ► in the command line are themselves front ends

01:11:13 ◼   ► to like five other commands under the hood

01:11:15 ◼   ► that are actually doing the thing you want to do.

01:11:17 ◼   ► - Yeah, Git is not a great example of user interface,

01:11:22 ◼   ► even in a faceless application.

01:11:24 ◼   ► - Git is exactly what you would expect

01:11:26 ◼   ► from the creator of Linux making something complicated.

01:11:30 ◼   ► Like version control and distributed version control

01:11:33 ◼   ► are already very complicated problems.

01:11:35 ◼   ► Add to that the creator of Linux making the one

01:11:37 ◼   ► that he wants to use,

01:11:39 ◼   ► and Git is exactly what you'd expect that to be.

01:11:42 ◼   ► - Oh, here's an example.

01:11:43 ◼   ► Selenium, someone suggested Selenium.

01:11:45 ◼   ► That's still kind of server related.

01:11:48 ◼   ► Do you guys wanna use Selenium?

01:11:50 ◼   ► I guess there's a lot of tools that are either web-based

01:11:53 ◼   ► or have to do with testing things

01:11:55 ◼   ► that have to do with the web that probably count, maybe.

01:11:59 ◼   ► I don't know.

01:12:00 ◼   ► - PHP BB?

01:12:02 ◼   ► - No.

01:12:03 ◼   ► (laughing)

01:12:04 ◼   ► Of course you would type up with that.

01:12:05 ◼   ► - A lot of regular people have interacted with that.

01:12:08 ◼   ► - I mean, Xamarin has had more of an impact

01:12:11 ◼   ► because they let you write iOS apps, right?

01:12:12 ◼   ► Like that whole strategy of you can use this other stack

01:12:17 ◼   ► to write things, that's cross-platform, right?

01:12:20 ◼   ► You sort of shared core of an application

01:12:22 ◼   ► and you deploy on iOS and also on other platforms.

01:12:25 ◼   ► - Yeah, that's right.

01:12:26 ◼   ► I looked at Xamarin back when it was Mono Touch 1,

01:12:31 ◼   ► excuse me.

01:12:32 ◼   ► And at the time anyway,

01:12:34 ◼   ► it was exactly what I would have done

01:12:38 ◼   ► if I was trying to write a cross-platform setup for iOS,

01:12:43 ◼   ► in so far as basically they just wrote glue classes

01:12:49 ◼   ► classes where if you had, I don't know, UI activity view controller, whatever it is,

01:12:56 ◼   ► in Objective-C, you're going to have the exact same thing in C# with basically the

01:13:00 ◼   ► same API, just things translated to be a little more friendly to the C# world.

01:13:06 ◼   ► And the C# classes were just really heavily annotated with attributes and whatnots to

01:13:10 ◼   ► describe what is supposed to happen.

01:13:13 ◼   ► And so what that meant was, and this is true, I believe, of monodroid or whatever it's

01:13:17 ◼   ► called Xamarin for Android now.

01:13:19 ◼   ► And so basically what that means is if you're going to write a cross-platform app, you would

01:13:24 ◼   ► presumably have the same business logic across both iOS and Android, and those would be the

01:13:29 ◼   ► exact same classes, completely shared, et cetera.

01:13:32 ◼   ► But you would be pretty much compelled to have a user interface specific for each platform.

01:13:38 ◼   ► This is in contrast to something like a phone gap, which is all JavaScript-based, and they

01:13:43 ◼   ► try to make the user interface code generic amongst both platforms as well.

01:13:48 ◼   ► And PhoneGap does a reasonably good job given what it is.

01:13:51 ◼   ► So for example, when you ask for, I think it's maybe I'm thinking of

01:13:54 ◼   ► titanium actually, it doesn't matter.

01:13:56 ◼   ► One of the JavaScript ones, um, when you ask for tab bar, you'll get a UI

01:14:00 ◼   ► tab bar and iOS, and it'll be at the bottom.

01:14:03 ◼   ► And if you ask for tab bar and Android, you'll get whatever the

01:14:05 ◼   ► Android equivalent is, and it'll be on the top, but it's still trying

01:14:10 ◼   ► to be all things to all people.

01:14:11 ◼   ► Whereas Xamarin at the time anyway, was not that way.

01:14:15 ◼   ► And you would have to definitely write

01:14:18 ◼   ► separate user interfaces per platform.

01:14:20 ◼   ► - But you would share all your core logic

01:14:22 ◼   ► and your sort of your business objects

01:14:24 ◼   ► and everything like that.

01:14:25 ◼   ► So I think that C# already probably has done more

01:14:29 ◼   ► to bring or Xamarin and Monotetchnals

01:14:33 ◼   ► have done more to bring Microsoft's tools

01:14:35 ◼   ► to the wider GUI community than probably

01:14:37 ◼   ► the accumulated mass of every GUI effort

01:14:40 ◼   ► that has come out of the Linux world.

01:14:42 ◼   ► Anyway, it's just interesting.

01:14:43 ◼   ► I'm very curious to see where it goes.

01:14:45 ◼   ► To be honest, like I said, I don't

01:14:46 ◼   ► know that it'll affect much unless somebody, like John

01:14:48 ◼   ► had said, embraces this to make some wonderful new thing.

01:14:52 ◼   ► But I was somewhat surprised to see it,

01:14:56 ◼   ► and I'm excited to see what comes of it.

01:15:00 ◼   ► Now, before we move on, out of curiosity,

01:15:03 ◼   ► what do you guys use at work or in retirement for you, Marco?

01:15:08 ◼   ► What do you use for version control if not Git?

01:15:10 ◼   ► - Oh, I use Git for the same reason

01:15:12 ◼   ► that a lot of people use Git,

01:15:13 ◼   ► which is that GitHub's really good,

01:15:15 ◼   ► and that if I want to use a lot of open source anything,

01:15:19 ◼   ► like if I want to open source a library,

01:15:22 ◼   ► if I want to open source something,

01:15:23 ◼   ► generally speaking, you need,

01:15:26 ◼   ► it is wise if you want to have any contributions

01:15:30 ◼   ► or any interaction with other developers,

01:15:32 ◼   ► it is wise to use GitHub, and therefore I use Git.

01:15:36 ◼   ► I don't know, there's a lot of areas in my life

01:15:37 ◼   ► before I kind of pick the alternative team.

01:15:41 ◼   ► And for whatever reason, I didn't do that this time,

01:15:43 ◼   ► because there's a lot of downsides to that approach

01:15:44 ◼   ► a lot of times, like when I bought the DVD+RW drive,

01:15:47 ◼   ► that was dumb.

01:15:49 ◼   ► (laughing)

01:15:50 ◼   ► So many things that I've done this time.

01:15:52 ◼   ► - As long as you didn't have DVD RAM, then you're fine.

01:15:54 ◼   ► - I did not have DVD RAM.

01:15:56 ◼   ► I don't know why there's a DVD RAM emoji.

01:15:58 ◼   ► DVD RAM was never popular.

01:16:00 ◼   ► It's not like it was just outdated,

01:16:01 ◼   ► like it was never ever popular among anybody,

01:16:04 ◼   ► but regardless, I did not,

01:16:06 ◼   ► I almost, I was tempted to buy DVD RAM

01:16:08 ◼   ► because it's so much better for data integrity.

01:16:10 ◼   ► It actually is way better in so many ways for integrity.

01:16:14 ◼   ► But I resisted it and instead bought DVD plus RW

01:16:18 ◼   ► back before they were combo drives, which was very stupid.

01:16:21 ◼   ► But anyway, yeah, this time I didn't go

01:16:25 ◼   ► for the alternative team, I went for the big team

01:16:27 ◼   ► and like I said, let's root for the Yankees

01:16:29 ◼   ► and it'll be easier and hey, I made a sports metaphor.

01:16:32 ◼   ► - I was about to say.

01:16:34 ◼   ► - Good is not the Yankees, please.

01:16:36 ◼   ► Is that up to date or is that outdated information?

01:16:38 ◼   ► - No, it was never, Git was never the Yankees.

01:16:40 ◼   ► - So what do you use at work, Jon?

01:16:42 ◼   ► - Oh, you know, it's not you have a choice at work.

01:16:44 ◼   ► I use Perforce at work.

01:16:45 ◼   ► And for the centralized version,

01:16:48 ◼   ► non-distributed version control systems,

01:16:50 ◼   ► so non-material, not Git, not Bitlock,

01:16:52 ◼   ► or like the old school style,

01:16:54 ◼   ► a sort of CVS subversion style,

01:16:56 ◼   ► I like Perforce better than any of these

01:16:59 ◼   ► other centralized ones I've used.

01:17:00 ◼   ► - Yep, completely agree.

01:17:02 ◼   ► - It has many things not to recommend it.

01:17:04 ◼   ► (laughing)

01:17:06 ◼   ► It's so once, so the decentralized ones come on the scene

01:17:10 ◼   ► and they all work according to a paradigm

01:17:12 ◼   ► that is totally foreign to Perforth, right?

01:17:13 ◼   ► And so it can't change, it can't change its stripes,

01:17:15 ◼   ► can't be like, now I'm decentralized, it's just not.

01:17:18 ◼   ► It's like everything about it,

01:17:20 ◼   ► it's baked into the design of Perforth.

01:17:22 ◼   ► It's never going to be like it or Mercurial or something.

01:17:25 ◼   ► But it feels the need to add weird

01:17:28 ◼   ► sort of half-hearted marketing features

01:17:31 ◼   ► like the P4 shell feature that showed up a few years ago

01:17:33 ◼   ► but it's like, just don't even try.

01:17:35 ◼   ► Like that's not, ugh, I don't know.

01:17:37 ◼   ► So Perforce does bother me every time I think

01:17:40 ◼   ► about how much easier this would be

01:17:41 ◼   ► on one of the more modern version control systems.

01:17:44 ◼   ► But if I just go backwards into the old mindset,

01:17:46 ◼   ► it's my favorite of an old outdated lot.

01:17:51 ◼   ► - Yeah, I used Perforce at my very first job

01:17:54 ◼   ► and this was 2004 and at the time I really liked it,

01:17:57 ◼   ► but obviously the world has moved on, like you said.

01:17:59 ◼   ► So if you were to do a personal project right now,

01:18:02 ◼   ► or if work asked you, "Hey, John, what would you like to use?"

01:18:06 ◼   ► And the whole company will use that.

01:18:08 ◼   ► What would you recommend?

01:18:10 ◼   ► - I would use Git, but I would hold my nose the whole time.

01:18:12 ◼   ► Like, one person in the chat room

01:18:15 ◼   ► apparently has never heard people say that Git is gross.

01:18:17 ◼   ► Git is totally gross, not in the functionality that it has,

01:18:21 ◼   ► but in the user interface.

01:18:22 ◼   ► And yes, command line programs have a user interface,

01:18:25 ◼   ► and Git's user interface, when you design a program,

01:18:27 ◼   ► the user interface is sort of,

01:18:29 ◼   ► you have to build sort of the user model

01:18:31 ◼   ► of how this program works, right?

01:18:32 ◼   ► you've got the model of how the internal guts

01:18:34 ◼   ► of the program work and you have to provide a user model

01:18:36 ◼   ► and a set of vocabulary and a series of nouns and verbs

01:18:40 ◼   ► that expose the functionality that you've made possible

01:18:43 ◼   ► with your application in a friendly way

01:18:44 ◼   ► and Git totally fails in that, just totally fails.

01:18:46 ◼   ► The words they pick for everything,

01:18:48 ◼   ► the options they use to represent those words,

01:18:50 ◼   ► the whole big structure of the Git subcommands

01:18:53 ◼   ► and the flags and how they go to it and the different,

01:18:54 ◼   ► oh, it's just terrible.

01:18:55 ◼   ► I mean, there's a million web pages about it.

01:18:56 ◼   ► It is a total user interface failure.

01:18:59 ◼   ► But you know, the functionality is great and it's free

01:19:02 ◼   ► and it's open source and GitHub exists.

01:19:04 ◼   ► So there are many other things to recommend

01:19:05 ◼   ► and it comes out ahead in net net,

01:19:08 ◼   ► but that doesn't mean it's not gross.

01:19:09 ◼   ► I mean, yuck.

01:19:11 ◼   ► - Now, have you played with Mercurial,

01:19:15 ◼   ► which I cannot pronounce apparently,

01:19:17 ◼   ► because was it Daniel Jalkut

01:19:19 ◼   ► that was on a tirade about that?

01:19:21 ◼   ► - Yeah, Jalkut's still rocking the Mercurial, I think.

01:19:24 ◼   ► Like he made the more elegant choice,

01:19:26 ◼   ► but it's just like, it's swimming against the tide, right?

01:19:29 ◼   ► 'Cause everything, like so much infrastructure

01:19:32 ◼   ► and is built around Git,

01:19:34 ◼   ► and people just expect you to use it.

01:19:35 ◼   ► And it's like, if Mercurial had won,

01:19:38 ◼   ► it's like, you know, if Betamax had won instead of VHS,

01:19:42 ◼   ► but bottom line is, you know, VHS won, and so here we are.

01:19:46 ◼   ► That's a better analogy than the Yankees, I think.

01:19:48 ◼   ► (laughing)

01:19:49 ◼   ► - Here it is, Marco, you tried that one time,

01:19:51 ◼   ► and this is what you get for it.

01:19:53 ◼   ► - I'll never try again.

01:19:54 ◼   ► - Yeah, in the chat room,

01:19:57 ◼   ► someone whose name I'm not gonna try to pronounce

01:19:58 ◼   ► says that Mercurial is basically Git with fewer features,

01:20:01 ◼   ► a better UI and a slower implementation.

01:20:03 ◼   ► Speed is actually a concern, speaking of operations in Git,

01:20:06 ◼   ► and someone from the chat room will correct me

01:20:08 ◼   ► within 30 seconds as soon as they hear this if I'm wrong,

01:20:11 ◼   ► scale linearly with the number of files, which is fine

01:20:13 ◼   ► if you have a small repository.

01:20:15 ◼   ► At work, we have a ridiculous, gigantic repository

01:20:19 ◼   ► that is way too big.

01:20:21 ◼   ► And Perforce is actually faster than Git

01:20:23 ◼   ► for doing common operations.

01:20:26 ◼   ► So that's not a slam against Git.

01:20:28 ◼   ► Does it slam against how we manage our code?

01:20:32 ◼   ► But that is something to consider,

01:20:34 ◼   ► and that's another reason.

01:20:35 ◼   ► Mercurial is not a clean win over Git.

01:20:37 ◼   ► It may have a nicer interface,

01:20:39 ◼   ► and a more well thought out sort of way

01:20:41 ◼   ► that describes its functionality,

01:20:43 ◼   ► but Git has a lot of developer time behind it,

01:20:45 ◼   ► and Git has a lot of features,

01:20:48 ◼   ► and can do a lot of amazing things,

01:20:49 ◼   ► and the tools and the ecosystem built around Git

01:20:51 ◼   ► make it more valuable than Mercurial.

01:20:53 ◼   ► - Cool.

01:20:55 ◼   ► - On that bombshell,

01:20:57 ◼   ► Thanks a lot to our three sponsors this week,

01:20:59 ◼   ► Mandrill, Squarespace, and Hover,

01:21:02 ◼   ► and we will see you next week.

01:21:04 ◼   ► (upbeat music)

01:21:06 ◼   ► ♪ Now the show is over ♪

01:21:09 ◼   ► ♪ They didn't even mean to begin ♪

01:21:11 ◼   ► ♪ 'Cause it was accidental ♪

01:21:13 ◼   ► ♪ Accidental ♪

01:21:14 ◼   ► ♪ Oh, it was accidental ♪

01:21:16 ◼   ► ♪ Accidental ♪

01:21:17 ◼   ► ♪ John didn't do any research ♪

01:21:19 ◼   ► ♪ Marco and Casey wouldn't let him ♪

01:21:22 ◼   ► ♪ 'Cause it was accidental ♪

01:21:23 ◼   ► ♪ Accidental ♪

01:21:25 ◼   ► ♪ Oh, it was accidental ♪

01:21:26 ◼   ► And you can find the show notes at ATP.FM And if you're into Twitter, you can follow

01:21:33 ◼   ► them at C-A-S-E-Y-L-I-S-S So that's Kasey Liss M-A-R-C-O-A-R-M

01:21:43 ◼   ► Auntie Marco Arment S-I-R-A-C-U-S-A-C-R-A-C-U-S-A

01:21:53 ◼   ► It's accidental, accidental.

01:21:56 ◼   ► They didn't mean to.

01:21:59 ◼   ► Accidental, accidental.

01:22:01 ◼   ► Tech podcast so long.

01:22:06 ◼   ► Because of the agreement that you have with analog,

01:22:12 ◼   ► first of all, how is your baby monitor doing?

01:22:14 ◼   ► What is this agreement?

01:22:16 ◼   ► I'm not caught up in analog, even though I

01:22:18 ◼   ► heard a recent one live.

01:22:19 ◼   ► Basically, Mike had said, mostly jokingly,

01:22:22 ◼   ► that he is going to,

01:22:24 ◼   ► actually I don't think we've released this one yet,

01:22:26 ◼   ► this might be the one.

01:22:27 ◼   ► - Well he's proposing some kind of agreement

01:22:30 ◼   ► between the two shows,

01:22:31 ◼   ► that most of the feelings will go on their show

01:22:35 ◼   ► 'cause most of the tech is gonna go on our show.

01:22:38 ◼   ► - Denied.

01:22:39 ◼   ► (laughing)

01:22:40 ◼   ► Yeah, I think I remember here,

01:22:41 ◼   ► now this is ringing a bell, that's total bogus,

01:22:45 ◼   ► just reject this offer immediately,

01:22:48 ◼   ► furthermore declare war against that podcast.

01:22:50 ◼   ► Oh, God, that's awesome.

01:22:51 ◼   ► No, the baby monitor is good.

01:22:56 ◼   ► We basically have the same baby monitor that you have.

01:22:58 ◼   ► Yeah, yeah.

01:22:59 ◼   ► But no, baby's good.

01:23:04 ◼   ► Every day is a little different, but in ways I can't describe, which is the oddest thing.

01:23:08 ◼   ► He looks a little bit different, kind of acts a little bit different.

01:23:12 ◼   ► And again, I wish I could tell you a specific way in which that's the case, but every

01:23:16 ◼   ► day is just a little bit different.

01:23:18 ◼   ► you're that young. I mean he's two weeks today actually. It's just everything is expected in

01:23:23 ◼   ► some ways to be different. Like today we noticed actually here's an empirical example or a specific

01:23:27 ◼   ► example we noticed that I think he's starting to be able to cry as in generate tears. Obviously he

01:23:33 ◼   ► wails and moans on occasion sometimes often but I don't think he was able to generate tears until

01:23:39 ◼   ► tonight we saw yeah wait wait wait I think that's a tear. I think that's a tear you know so that's

01:23:46 ◼   ► new but I mean all in all everything's fine still sleeping more than expected less than

01:23:51 ◼   ► desired but you know it's all good.

01:23:54 ◼   ► So as some general advice things change quickly and like like he in in six months he's going

01:24:01 ◼   ► to look completely different.

01:24:02 ◼   ► Oh yeah.

01:24:03 ◼   ► Six months after that he'll look completely different again and and he'll you know of

01:24:08 ◼   ► course he'll act different he'll get more abilities.

01:24:12 ◼   ► What I would recommend is, you probably already do this,

01:24:15 ◼   ► but don't forget to take pictures

01:24:17 ◼   ► and don't forget to take video.