ATP

00:00:00 ◼   ► I have no idea what day it is anymore.

00:00:02 ◼   ► It's still Thursday.

00:00:04 ◼   ► What week is it?

00:00:06 ◼   ► The first week of April, is that right? I don't even know.

00:00:08 ◼   ► Is the watch out yet?

00:00:10 ◼   ► No it's not. Soon. But not yet.

00:00:12 ◼   ► Check your wrist.

00:00:14 ◼   ► Just look at your wrist.

00:00:16 ◼   ► It's hair o'clock.

00:00:18 ◼   ► So do we have some follow-up?

00:00:20 ◼   ► Starting with cooking, apparently.

00:00:22 ◼   ► Seriously? That's awesome.

00:00:24 ◼   ► Yeah, this was last week on the toaster episode.

00:00:26 ◼   ► I was making fun of the temperatures

00:00:28 ◼   ► making fun of the temperatures printed on the glass door of the toaster saying that

00:00:32 ◼   ► 160 to 170 is not an appropriate temperature for pork despite the fact that it is printed

00:00:37 ◼   ► on the door of the toaster that I tested last week. And I also blame the government for

00:00:42 ◼   ► these crazy temperature ratings because they tend to be super conservative to make sure

00:00:47 ◼   ► you don't get any food borne illnesses. Well, I was told by several people that the government

00:00:51 ◼   ► had in fact changed their recommended temperature to pork. They changed it in 2011 and when

00:00:57 ◼   ► people mention this to me I had then recalled reading the story back then but

00:01:00 ◼   ► anyway the government now recommends a 145 for pork which is a perfectly sane

00:01:05 ◼   ► temperature for pork and it will make it not taste like cardboard so everybody

00:01:08 ◼   ► you can say the government says the US government that is that you can safely

00:01:13 ◼   ► cook your pork to 145 and eat it and not have it taste like cardboard all right

00:01:17 ◼   ► well I feel better knowing that piece of information I don't know about you guys

00:01:21 ◼   ► all right so why don't tell us about the f-16 there's another thing last we got

00:01:26 ◼   ► I think it was a four-touch trackpad.

00:01:29 ◼   ► The trackpad doesn't move, but it feels like it moves, and it reminded me of the stick

00:01:33 ◼   ► in the F-16, which doesn't move.

00:01:35 ◼   ► A couple of people knowledgeable about this stuff wrote in to tell me that the F-16, the

00:01:40 ◼   ► original F-16 stick, didn't move at all, and the pilots found it disconcerting because

00:01:45 ◼   ► there was no feedback, and so it was modified so that it moves slightly.

00:01:49 ◼   ► Some people say fractions of an inch, some people say it moves an inch total.

00:01:52 ◼   ► I saw a video of it at one point moving.

00:01:54 ◼   ► It doesn't move much, but it moves a little bit.

00:01:56 ◼   ► Because there was no feedback, it just felt kind of weird.

00:01:58 ◼   ► And I wasn't sure about the F-18, and people have already told me that the F-18 stick does

00:02:04 ◼   ► move, and it actually has a mechanical connection to the flight controls as a backup.

00:02:11 ◼   ► I remember reading about that years ago, the fly-by-wire thing.

00:02:14 ◼   ► Before drive-by-wire came to cars, not that we want to turn this into neutral already,

00:02:19 ◼   ► Fly-by-wire came to planes first, where the controls were not hooked up to the...

00:02:24 ◼   ► things that you put your hands on were not hooked up to the

00:02:27 ◼   ► control surfaces of the plane by a mechanical connection,

00:02:30 ◼   ► but rather just by like you would move the stick and it would figure out what you were trying to do and then it would

00:02:34 ◼   ► instruct electronics to move the control surfaces of the plane and predictably that freaked out pilots like "oh I got you know,

00:02:40 ◼   ► I gotta have a direct connection. I don't trust these computers blah blah blah."

00:02:44 ◼   ► But they made it triply and quadruply redundant. Anyway, in the F-18

00:02:47 ◼   ► It's fly-by-wire my understanding, but there is a backup system where if the fly-by-wire system fails

00:02:52 ◼   ► You can still move the surfaces with a stick

00:02:54 ◼   ► So there you go the f-16 and needed with its unmoving stick needed some haptic feedback as well

00:03:02 ◼   ► I don't they guess they did decide not to go with vibration and just go with tiny amounts of movement

00:03:06 ◼   ► But it still seems pretty weird

00:03:08 ◼   ► That's definitely wonky, but hey whatever works

00:03:12 ◼   ► Tell us about the current MacBook Pro and how many monitors you can connect to it

00:03:17 ◼   ► Yeah, the last week talking about the confusion of what would happen if they had two USB C ports on the new MacBook

00:03:25 ◼   ► and

00:03:26 ◼   ► But it only supported

00:03:28 ◼   ► Two monitors so you could only have the intro monitor and one external monitor

00:03:31 ◼   ► Wouldn't it be confusing that you had this other port that you thought you could hook something into it?

00:03:34 ◼   ► I said it would not be confusing because you would know that you bought a machine that only supports dual displays you would

00:03:39 ◼   ► Yeah, and Frank and Frank wrote in to tell me well the current MacBook Pro only supports two external displays

00:03:45 ◼   ► But it has three places you can plug in monitor

00:03:47 ◼   ► So those people must just be thoroughly confused when they plug in that third monitor, and it doesn't work alright, so there were two big

00:03:54 ◼   ► Pieces of follow-up that we got or two pieces of follow-up that we got often

00:03:59 ◼   ► One of them was everyone getting angry at you for falling into the Steve Jobs said or Steve Jobs did trap

00:04:06 ◼   ► Would you like to defend yourself John? Yeah, that's not it's one of those things where there's sort of

00:04:11 ◼   ► shared cultural knowledge of a meme or whatever and it

00:04:15 ◼   ► All nuance is rung out of that meme and the meme is kind of when when Tim Cook took over Steve Jobs and Steve Jobs died

00:04:22 ◼   ► Among the Apple nerd community where there were a lot of there was a lot of pushback on the idea

00:04:28 ◼   ► On the other stories that were coming saying Oh Jobs is gone

00:04:31 ◼   ► He was the only one who could have led Apple to victory now no matter what Tim Cook does he's doomed without

00:04:36 ◼   ► jobs Apple can't innovate and everything Tim Cook did it was well Steve Jobs

00:04:40 ◼   ► would have done it this way well he's no Steve Jobs well Steve Jobs would have

00:04:43 ◼   ► done that and so the blowback meme in our little circle was always I don't

00:04:47 ◼   ► want to see anyone comparing anything Tim Cook does to Steve Jobs I don't want

00:04:50 ◼   ► to see anyone ever saying Steve Jobs would have done this and would have done

00:04:52 ◼   ► that the spirit it was that meme is developed in was worthwhile and that

00:04:58 ◼   ► when that transition did take place there were a lot of those hysterical

00:05:01 ◼   ► stories about how Apple could never possibly succeed without Steve Jobs and

00:05:03 ◼   ► so on. But it has morphed into "It is now impossible to ever compare and contrast Steve

00:05:10 ◼   ► Jobs and Tim Cook." And that premise I reject. I think it is perfectly valid to compare and

00:05:15 ◼   ► contrast Steve Jobs and Tim Cook, whether or not you think one is better than the other

00:05:19 ◼   ► and whether or not you want to make that particular case. In the last episode, I was comparing

00:05:24 ◼   ► them directly on things that they had each done with the product line, not saying, "Well,

00:05:29 ◼   ► what would Steve Jobs have done about the watch or some product that he didn't even

00:05:32 ◼   ► know about I don't even know about the watch but anyway that type of thing I

00:05:36 ◼   ► think is not as useful but still I think is a valid line of inquiry as long as

00:05:41 ◼   ► you're not using it as a cudgel to say like Steve Jobs would never have done

00:05:45 ◼   ► that therefore what Tim Cook is doing is wrong because Steve Jobs was infallible

00:05:48 ◼   ► and so on and so forth so anyway I reject that criticism because I think it

00:05:52 ◼   ► is useful to compare these things and as long as you do it in a thoughtful way

00:05:55 ◼   ► and not just you know elevate Steve Jobs to godhood and use him as a way to say

00:06:02 ◼   ► whatever Tim Cook does is bad or to try to support your own opinion by saying

00:06:05 ◼   ► I think the watch is a dumb idea and Steve Jobs would have agreed with me was he was here

00:06:10 ◼   ► He's always right therefore. I'm right because I I'm telling you what Steve Jobs would have thought about the watcher

00:06:15 ◼   ► You know I again

00:06:16 ◼   ► I don't know if you knew about the watch it would be better if we had an example of a product that we were sure

00:06:19 ◼   ► The Steve Jobs never knew about a lot of these things have been in the works for a long time

00:06:23 ◼   ► But anyway, that's that's how I feel about the comparisons to Steve Jobs

00:06:27 ◼   ► So you stand by your comparison from last week? Yes, totally because I you know, it is not like completely speculative

00:06:34 ◼   ► I'm not using the ghost of Steve Jobs to sure I support my opinion

00:06:36 ◼   ► I said I didn't even know which strategy was better than Tim Cook one of the Steve Jobs one and I could go either way

00:06:41 ◼   ► On it and it's not clear like it's not it. It is completely valid

00:06:44 ◼   ► All right

00:06:46 ◼   ► Let's wake Marco up and have him tell us about something awesome and then he can go back to sleep for a few more minutes

00:06:50 ◼   ► It's something going on. We're doing a podcast something like that is the show

00:06:54 ◼   ► Is this what people tune in for do you want to explain why you're all sleepy because no one's gonna know why you're all sleepy

00:06:59 ◼   ► When they like you you think that everyone follows your life down to the the tweet on Twitter

00:07:03 ◼   ► But people are gonna listen to this who haven't been following you on Twitter have no idea why you're out of it

00:07:06 ◼   ► So why don't you explain that? Thank God. I'm so tired of Twitter. People are so nasty there anyway

00:07:10 ◼   ► Honestly, I'm I'm pulling away from Twitter I think I

00:07:16 ◼   ► It's just not worth it. It is simply not worth it. You haven't even been tweeting that much

00:07:21 ◼   ► What are you that's what I'm talking about. I'm pulling away from Twitter. All right

00:07:24 ◼   ► Well, maybe we'll save us for the after show and we'll have a therapy session and see what's going on on your Twitter

00:07:28 ◼   ► All right. Well, it's it isn't anything recent. It's like I'm slowly realizing over the course of time that

00:07:34 ◼   ► Twitter is

00:07:37 ◼   ► it's a tricky balance between whether it makes your life better or worse overall and

00:07:42 ◼   ► and I've been questioning what the what the value of it is for me recently and whether it is a net gain or loss and

00:07:48 ◼   ► I think

00:07:49 ◼   ► Maybe it's probably a net gain still but the ratio there is not as good as it should be

00:07:55 ◼   ► So I'm really not incredibly happy with it anyway

00:07:59 ◼   ► And I'm exploring ways to try to fix it. Young man, when you are tired of Twitter

00:08:04 ◼   ► You are tired of life. Another reference you will not get from a long time ago

00:08:09 ◼   ► So the reason I sound like this and the reason I'm out of it

00:08:12 ◼   ► And probably not making any sense is because I have just returned from a trip across the Atlantic Ocean

00:08:19 ◼   ► To Ireland for the wonderful ool conference and I would I would tell you how amazing it is in great detail

00:08:24 ◼   ► However, Casey didn't get to go this year

00:08:26 ◼   ► And it would just be cruel for me for me to tell you how awesome it was

00:08:29 ◼   ► But suffice to say it was awesome. And I've been awake for approximately 22 hours now. I

00:08:35 ◼   ► Forget what time my body thinks it is. It doesn't really matter

00:08:39 ◼   ► But I'm a zombie and I sound like this so I apologize

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00:11:32 ◼   ► - All right.

00:11:33 ◼   ► So I had said earlier that there were two major pieces

00:11:37 ◼   ► follow-up that that we had got a lot of complaining about via the feedback just

00:11:43 ◼   ► well this week there were two and the other one had to do with some of the

00:11:50 ◼   ► statements we made on fabbing ram which in turn were based on some follow-up

00:11:55 ◼   ► that we had gotten two weeks ago so John do you want to set all this straight

00:11:58 ◼   ► yeah this was my memory I would which I just asserted as fact the first time I

00:12:02 ◼   ► of I talked about it that when when using when fabbing silicon chips that

00:12:08 ◼   ► the first thing they do to work out the kinks in a new process size was fab ram

00:12:12 ◼   ► because it's simple and very regular and not as complicated as actual full-fledged

00:12:15 ◼   ► CPU and then we got some feedback that said no no actually D RAM is really

00:12:19 ◼   ► complicated because they have capacitors they're like they're not like two flat

00:12:22 ◼   ► plates facing each other it's like a tube within a tube and it's really

00:12:25 ◼   ► complicated to fab them and actually it's much harder to fab those capacitors

00:12:29 ◼   ► than just regular planar logic transistors, so that's definitely not the case.

00:12:32 ◼   ► And I was like, "Alright, well, maybe my data is old, maybe I'm just remembering this from

00:12:37 ◼   ► when I was a kid and I never revisited maybe when they passed through 32 nanometers, something

00:12:42 ◼   ► changed."

00:12:43 ◼   ► Because things get weird when you start getting really small process sizes, like who knows,

00:12:45 ◼   ► maybe we only have X-ray lithography, maybe we already have X-ray lithography, that's

00:12:49 ◼   ► how much I've been keeping up with it, as in not much.

00:12:51 ◼   ► It's not like it just shrinks, shrinks, shrinks, and it's going to shrink your whole life.

00:12:53 ◼   ► We should have a whole episode about the end of Moore's Law, by the way, because Moore's

00:12:57 ◼   ► law has existed for most of our life where it's like, "Oh, you know, they just keep shrinking

00:13:01 ◼   ► in the process," but like, it doesn't take a genius to figure out you can't keep shrinking

00:13:05 ◼   ► forever. Eventually you get down to the things that they're slamming together in that big

00:13:10 ◼   ► ring underground somewhere in Europe, and you run into some problems. But anyway, we're

00:13:16 ◼   ► not there yet. And so, last week I said, "What the heck was I remembering with this whole

00:13:22 ◼   ► fabbing RAM first? Am I just crazy, or was it something they used to do but don't do

00:13:25 ◼   ► anymore, and I got a lot of people who would be in positions to know telling me that what

00:13:30 ◼   ► I was, it wasn't that they don't fab RAM, it's that they fab SRAM, not DRAM.

00:13:34 ◼   ► SRAM is the stuff you use to make like the caches and stuff on CPUs.

00:13:38 ◼   ► It is not the same as DRAM.

00:13:41 ◼   ► It is much more expensive than DRAM and faster because you need to use way more transistors

00:13:44 ◼   ► per bit of stored memory.

00:13:47 ◼   ► But unlike DRAM, it doesn't need to be refreshed every X number of milliseconds.

00:13:50 ◼   ► Anyway, we'll link to the SRAM Wikipedia page.

00:13:54 ◼   ► SRAM is not a new thing, but the point is SRAM is not filled with capacitors, it's just

00:13:58 ◼   ► a bunch of logic gates and it is very regular and that is what they use to test out the

00:14:02 ◼   ► Kingston New Processes.

00:14:03 ◼   ► In fact we have someone, Andrew Yang from, oh no he's not the one from Intel, but someone

00:14:07 ◼   ► else from Intel.

00:14:08 ◼   ► But anyway, he links to an Anetech story from a while back specifically talking about SRAM.

00:14:13 ◼   ► The Anetech story says "The good old SRAM test vehicle is a great way to iron out bugs

00:14:17 ◼   ► in the manufacturing process."

00:14:18 ◼   ► and he talks about how Intel was demoing in 2007 their 32 nanometer SRAM test chip.

00:14:24 ◼   ► And Eric, who used to work at Intel until 2006, says that each new process node in SDRAM

00:14:30 ◼   ► module was fabbed prior to the main production of CPUs.

00:14:32 ◼   ► I saw someone else, I don't have the notes here, was saying that that measurement of

00:14:36 ◼   ► like how small were you able to get SRAM is kind of like the yardstick for how you're

00:14:40 ◼   ► doing on your process size.

00:14:41 ◼   ► Like oh, we first got SRAM down to this size at this date or whatever.

00:14:44 ◼   ► So there you go, one letter makes a difference.

00:14:47 ◼   ► If you don't know the difference between SRAM and DRAM,

00:14:49 ◼   ► I encourage you to read the Wikipedia pages

00:14:50 ◼   ► that we will put in the show notes,

00:14:51 ◼   ► because all RAM is crazy,

00:14:53 ◼   ► and examining the difference between SRAM and DRAM

00:14:55 ◼   ► will make you appreciate the stuff

00:14:56 ◼   ► that's inside your computer

00:14:58 ◼   ► that you never need to think about.

00:15:00 ◼   ► And finally, Gordon McGregor sent us a link to a chart

00:15:02 ◼   ► that shows process size,

00:15:05 ◼   ► and I didn't quite understand this chart,

00:15:06 ◼   ► and it seems to contradict some of the things I just said,

00:15:08 ◼   ► but this chart shows that DRAM

00:15:11 ◼   ► still leads process development versus logic,

00:15:13 ◼   ► but the gap is closing over time.

00:15:14 ◼   ► Did you guys look at this graph here?

00:15:16 ◼   ► No, it is somewhat confusing it shows logic and then D RAM the NAND flash and I don't know what that other line is there

00:15:23 ◼   ► Anyway, I will leave the graph in the show notes

00:15:26 ◼   ► Anyone wants to parse that out and figure what it is I'm looking at there

00:15:29 ◼   ► But I'm fairly convinced that what I was remembering was s RAM and not D RAM in that first little letter

00:15:33 ◼   ► Makes all the difference that took surprisingly little time John. I'm very proud of I tried to trim it down

00:15:39 ◼   ► I didn't want it there was some more rehashing of the the new MacBook, but I felt we've covered it

00:15:43 ◼   ► Yeah, I think we can definitely never talk about the one port on the MacBook again

00:15:48 ◼   ► Oh, no, when Apple sends us all our free sample copies, then we'll talk about it some more. Oh, yeah that yeah

00:15:53 ◼   ► Oh, I didn't mention I got I got five of them on my mailbox today. Yes. I said check your wrist

00:15:58 ◼   ► You're wearing two Apple watches right now. Oh my god, you're right

00:16:02 ◼   ► If it were only that easy, oh damn. It's the sport

00:16:05 ◼   ► Okay, so

00:16:10 ◼   ► So it's funny that this is the week that we run through follow-up so quickly because we don't really have any

00:16:15 ◼   ► Terribly pressing topics. That's right. Now you where is your follow-up now?

00:16:18 ◼   ► All right, so I don't know which one of you guys put this in the show notes

00:16:26 ◼   ► But would you like to talk about our max and roadmap rumors? I think we all would I think we should all bring up

00:16:32 ◼   ► This page which is from a long time ago and it is a complete the unsubstantiated rumor as far as I can tell

00:16:37 ◼   ► - So we ran out of topics, so we're moving

00:16:40 ◼   ► from discussing new BS rumors

00:16:42 ◼   ► to discussing ancient BS rumors.

00:16:44 ◼   ► - Yeah, well, I mean, this BS rumor is a jumping off point.

00:16:48 ◼   ► First of all, it's in one of those sub-communities

00:16:51 ◼   ► that we don't really travel in,

00:16:53 ◼   ► like the whole semiconductor forums,

00:16:56 ◼   ► where they're debating, they're really into

00:16:58 ◼   ► who's particular process size

00:17:01 ◼   ► and what particular technology is getting what contract

00:17:03 ◼   ► for what chip and all that stuff.

00:17:07 ◼   ► So at the very least, like, anyway, look at the story.

00:17:12 ◼   ► It talks about like the A9, the A10, the A9X, the A10X,

00:17:15 ◼   ► the S1 and the S2, all names that you could very easily

00:17:18 ◼   ► make up based on, you know, Apple's current naming

00:17:20 ◼   ► of their chips.

00:17:21 ◼   ► And who might get those contracts

00:17:24 ◼   ► and what technology they're using

00:17:26 ◼   ► and the date they're supposed to start production

00:17:28 ◼   ► and contracts that are split over different fabs

00:17:31 ◼   ► like Samsung and TSMC and Global Foundry

00:17:33 ◼   ► and whether Intel is fabbing anything.

00:17:37 ◼   ► And there's a big table showing all this information, most of which is not that big of a deal except

00:17:41 ◼   ► from the perspective of Apple, you know, how is Apple managing its relationship with its

00:17:47 ◼   ► fiercest competitor Samsung that it is still relying on to fab a lot of its chips?

00:17:51 ◼   ► And that's always an uncomfortable situation and we've talked in the past about perhaps

00:17:55 ◼   ► getting Intel into the mix here because they are usually at the forefront of process technology,

00:18:01 ◼   ► very often far ahead of the rest of the field but so far Apple hasn't been using them for

00:18:05 ◼   ► anything but of course Intel has their own chips they want you to use instead of ARM.

00:18:09 ◼   ► Anyway, inside this entire story is a one line item showing on the A9X and A10X line,

00:18:17 ◼   ► on the A9 and A10 it says those are the iPhone.

00:18:18 ◼   ► On the Apple Watch it says of course the S1 and the S2.

00:18:21 ◼   ► And then it talks about the baseband chip on the iPhone and iPad.

00:18:24 ◼   ► And then the middle item it says A9X, A10X, iPad and Mac.

00:18:29 ◼   ► And that is not an exciting part of the story really to the people discussing this because

00:18:33 ◼   ► 'cause all they care about is who's fabbing

00:18:34 ◼   ► and what technology it's on.

00:18:35 ◼   ► But it's like, "Oh, we'll just throw that in there."

00:18:37 ◼   ► Yeah, of course, the A9X and the A10X,

00:18:38 ◼   ► of course there'll be Macs based on those.

00:18:40 ◼   ► And this is the eternal ARM-based Mac.

00:18:43 ◼   ► Remember that we've talked about at length in the past,

00:18:45 ◼   ► I think it was worth revisiting.

00:18:47 ◼   ► Do we think anything has changed on the feasibility

00:18:52 ◼   ► and likability of ARM-based Macs in light of,

00:18:55 ◼   ► let's say, like the new MacBook with its five watt CPU

00:18:59 ◼   ► and the very latest iPad Air 2 with its benchmarks

00:19:04 ◼   ► versus the existing computers.

00:19:05 ◼   ► Do we think now is the time?

00:19:06 ◼   ► Do we believe this little table here

00:19:10 ◼   ► any more than we did in the past,

00:19:11 ◼   ► or is it just still a wait and see attitude?

00:19:14 ◼   ► - You know, I actually had an interesting

00:19:16 ◼   ► and related realization at work the other day.

00:19:20 ◼   ► One of my coworkers who is not a developer,

00:19:22 ◼   ► she had just swapped a Dell iPad Air,

00:19:27 ◼   ► excuse me, MacBook Air knockoff for a actual MacBook Air.

00:19:31 ◼   ► And this MacBook Air happened to be a few years old.

00:19:33 ◼   ► I don't recall exactly when it was built.

00:19:36 ◼   ► But she didn't have VMware installed.

00:19:41 ◼   ► Now, typically when we used to issue Macs to everyone,

00:19:44 ◼   ► doesn't matter if you're a developer or not,

00:19:46 ◼   ► we would, or our IT department of one,

00:19:49 ◼   ► would install VMware Fusion on every single Mac.

00:19:53 ◼   ► Because inevitably all of these people,

00:19:55 ◼   ► be it business people, developers, whatever,

00:19:58 ◼   ► are going to need to do something in Windows

00:20:01 ◼   ► that they can't do in OS X.

00:20:02 ◼   ► And so our IT guy would just get ahead of the curve

00:20:06 ◼   ► and just put VMware Fusion on there.

00:20:09 ◼   ► And I went to do something in VMware Fusion on her machine.

00:20:12 ◼   ► I can't remember what it was, but it doesn't really matter.

00:20:14 ◼   ► And VMware Fusion wasn't there.

00:20:17 ◼   ► And that was a little bit odd for me

00:20:20 ◼   ► because I thought it was a given that, say,

00:20:23 ◼   ► for Visio, if nothing else, that VMware would be on every Mac we hand out in the company.

00:20:29 ◼   ► And it isn't. And that relates to this discussion because I have to imagine that virtualizing

00:20:38 ◼   ► a Windows installation, unless it was whatever that weirdo version of Windows is that runs

00:20:42 ◼   ► on the surface, the ARM surfaces, virtualizing a Windows installation on an ARM Mac would

00:20:48 ◼   ► be unbelievably slow. I mean, we've talked about this in the past, but my recollection

00:20:52 ◼   ► of Macs before I ever touched a Mac was that they would have like separate daughterboards

00:20:56 ◼   ► on some of these old Macs that would basically be a PC on a daughterboard that you would

00:21:01 ◼   ► plug into your Mac in order to make emulation of PCs way faster. Do you know what I'm talking

00:21:06 ◼   ► about, Jon?

00:21:07 ◼   ► They had those, but nobody owned them. Like you would never see one in the wild. They

00:21:10 ◼   ► made a couple machines that you can do that with a couple of third parties actual shoulder

00:21:14 ◼   ► card, but it was not a thing like virtual PC was the thing. And that was all emulated

00:21:18 ◼   ► x86 PC on my power PC Mac and it was super slow.

00:21:23 ◼   ► Exactly, exactly.

00:21:24 ◼   ► And so that's what that's that's one of the things that I love about my Macs and this

00:21:29 ◼   ► is granted directly driven by the fact that I do all of my work on the Microsoft stack.

00:21:34 ◼   ► But nonetheless, I love being able to boot into when I don't love being being able to

00:21:39 ◼   ► boot into Windows, but I love being able to get my job done by booting into Windows and

00:21:43 ◼   ► using Visual Studio and doing all that sort of thing.

00:21:46 ◼   ► But it was very interesting to me that someone who isn't a developer apparently doesn't

00:21:51 ◼   ► need Windows anymore.

00:21:52 ◼   ► And that's a change from just a couple of years back, at least in my workplace.

00:21:56 ◼   ► And that is kind of what you were talking about, Jon.

00:21:59 ◼   ► Is this more feasible now?

00:22:01 ◼   ► Well, I don't know, but certainly could be.

00:22:04 ◼   ► I think it's not just Windows, because we always think, "Oh, x86, it's great that

00:22:08 ◼   ► we can run Windows software.

00:22:09 ◼   ► And now, finally, this divide that existed for so long."

00:22:12 ◼   ► It was Mac versus PC, and it was the software compatibility problem.

00:22:15 ◼   ► And when Apple went x86, it was cutting the Gordian knot

00:22:18 ◼   ► and say, game over, it is not an issue anymore.

00:22:21 ◼   ► You can boot Windows on these things.

00:22:23 ◼   ► There is no excuse not to get this Mac.

00:22:26 ◼   ► You know what I mean?

00:22:27 ◼   ► It can do everything.

00:22:28 ◼   ► You can kind of look at it as a transitional thing.

00:22:30 ◼   ► Like we need to be able to do what the competition can do

00:22:35 ◼   ► long enough to defeat the competition

00:22:37 ◼   ► and then it doesn't matter anymore.

00:22:38 ◼   ► It's not like the Mac is defeating Windows PCs,

00:22:40 ◼   ► but what's happening is that the PC is being defeated

00:22:43 ◼   ► by mobile, right?

00:22:45 ◼   ► And so it becomes less relevant what goes on down here in the PC world.

00:22:50 ◼   ► And maybe Windows becomes less relevant, even Microsoft is bringing all of its stuff to

00:22:54 ◼   ► be, you know, net-based services and cloud subscriptions and web-based things.

00:22:59 ◼   ► And you know, it's just the stakes are a lot lower, you know, the need for Windows is a

00:23:05 ◼   ► lot lower.

00:23:08 ◼   ► Within specific applications, like if you really need to use Windows stuff, x86 I think

00:23:12 ◼   ► is still indispensable for those things.

00:23:14 ◼   ► I don't think it's feasible for Apple to go all ARM for a variety of reasons.

00:23:18 ◼   ► And for x86, so the reason I bring up Windows is from my perspective, in my particular job

00:23:24 ◼   ► and everyone's varies, Windows, yes, is important, but I feel like Linux is just as important.

00:23:29 ◼   ► And you say, "Well, it doesn't matter.

00:23:30 ◼   ► Linux runs on everything.

00:23:31 ◼   ► Linux doesn't need x86."

00:23:32 ◼   ► You're right, Linux does run on everything.

00:23:33 ◼   ► I had Linux on my PowerPC Mac.

00:23:35 ◼   ► There was lots of different distributions.

00:23:36 ◼   ► But practically speaking, it's a lot easier to get binary packages and to work out compilation

00:23:43 ◼   ► problems than to just sort out everything you need to sort out on x86/64 Linux.

00:23:48 ◼   ► Because that is the sweet spot.

00:23:50 ◼   ► That is what everyone's using.

00:23:51 ◼   ► That's the common thing.

00:23:52 ◼   ► And if you have some exotic CPU like ARM or PowerPC or whatever, you are a little bit

00:23:57 ◼   ► off the beaten path.

00:23:58 ◼   ► Is that a big deal?

00:23:59 ◼   ► No, but it's just a hassle.

00:24:01 ◼   ► It's an annoyance.

00:24:03 ◼   ► It's the kind of thing that Mac users used to have to deal with.

00:24:05 ◼   ► Because they're like, "Oh, I can do that, but I'm a little bit different."

00:24:08 ◼   ► It's like OS X in the beginning.

00:24:10 ◼   ► try to compile your UNIX software and it'd be like, "You can build it on a Mac, but

00:24:13 ◼   ► it's kind of weird.

00:24:14 ◼   ► You might have to tweak a Makefile."

00:24:15 ◼   ► And it's like, "Why doesn't this just build out of the box?"

00:24:17 ◼   ► Luckily, all the people who maintain software packages for UNIX seem to get Macs, because

00:24:23 ◼   ► it only took a few years for all those packages to start building, and now you just expect

00:24:26 ◼   ► if I get something from the open source world, it will build on the Mac, and if it doesn't,

00:24:32 ◼   ► you're angry at somebody.

00:24:33 ◼   ► So we've already become entitled, like, "How dare that thing not build on the Mac!"

00:24:39 ◼   ► But yeah, I think x86 still serves a role as the sort of common base Windows, Mac, Linux,

00:24:46 ◼   ► even though the Mac in the past has run on different platforms, and even though Linux

00:24:49 ◼   ► in the present runs on a bazillion different platforms, and even Windows has at various

00:24:53 ◼   ► times run on different platforms.

00:24:54 ◼   ► There's an ARM version of Windows now, there was a PowerPC version of Windows NT, for people

00:24:57 ◼   ► who are really old, remember that one?

00:25:00 ◼   ► But x86 is still that commonality.

00:25:02 ◼   ► So regardless of what goes on at the low end of ARM, I have to think that Apple would have

00:25:08 ◼   ► to keep x86-64 at the very least on the high end for some period of time.

00:25:12 ◼   ► And the thing that trips me up about the ARM-based Mac is like, so do you have two different

00:25:17 ◼   ► CPUs in Macs for a long period, for multiple years, where you can get both ARM Macs and

00:25:24 ◼   ► x86 Macs?

00:25:26 ◼   ► That seems like more trouble than it's worth to me.

00:25:30 ◼   ► Yeah, that seems weird.

00:25:32 ◼   ► I mean, that's what Microsoft is doing with the Surface, right?

00:25:35 ◼   ► They have the Surface, what is it, RT, which is--

00:25:38 ◼   ► Windows RT, yeah.

00:25:40 ◼   ► I'm sorry, I'm conflating them.

00:25:42 ◼   ► But yeah, there's a Surface that runs ARM, which

00:25:45 ◼   ► at least the early ones--

00:25:46 ◼   ► I haven't kept up with the later ones,

00:25:48 ◼   ► but a few coworkers go to build every year,

00:25:50 ◼   ► and that's kind of the Microsoft WWDC, if you will.

00:25:53 ◼   ► It's in Moscone, the whole rigmarole.

00:25:55 ◼   ► And anyway, unlike Apple, Microsoft

00:25:57 ◼   ► gives away all sorts of awesome goodies.

00:26:01 ◼   ► I think they got Xbox Ones last year, et cetera.

00:26:04 ◼   ► Well, anyways, they got Surface RTs a couple of years ago, and they said that they were

00:26:10 ◼   ► great for the three or four or 10 pieces of software that came with it, but they were

00:26:15 ◼   ► pieces of crap for anything else.

00:26:18 ◼   ► And the chat room is telling me, well, that's not really a thing anymore, but it's still

00:26:22 ◼   ► an illustrative example of, well, it makes everything harder when you're not running

00:26:28 ◼   ► on the platform that they're not running on the CPU that most of the platform is running

00:26:32 ◼   ► on.

00:26:33 ◼   ► just like you said, Jon, over time that would change. But it's weird from a consumer point

00:26:39 ◼   ► of view. We've been lamenting, maybe not the three of us as much, but we as a community have

00:26:42 ◼   ► been lamenting all the different skews that Apple has now between iPads and certainly the watch and

00:26:51 ◼   ► iPhones and Macs. And this would just further complicate things. I don't know. I agree with

00:26:58 ◼   ► you for sure, Jon, that it seems really aggressive to get rid of Intel. Even on the low end,

00:27:02 ◼   ► even on like the little even on the low end it seems aggressive but i i would believe it because

00:27:08 ◼   ► apple is aggressive i hear they're coming out with a computer that only is one port um these very soon

00:27:13 ◼   ► don't know warning just acknowledge that the chat room is talking about that the arm-based version

00:27:20 ◼   ► of windows has gone around in circles two times oh it's dead it's just going away it's just sleeping

00:27:26 ◼   ► you know it is an x version of windows anyway that always struck me as a trial balloon we can

00:27:32 ◼   ► make, you know, because it's when they were doing like the original Surface, right?

00:27:35 ◼   ► And they were going to have one that was Intel power, but the best chips Intel could give

00:27:37 ◼   ► them still required like vents to be on the side of their tablet, and that was kind of

00:27:41 ◼   ► like, can we make one that's iPad-like, but still using, you know, like, can we do it?

00:27:47 ◼   ► We want to make an iPad, and Intel doesn't have a chip for us, can we still put Windows

00:27:52 ◼   ► on it?

00:27:53 ◼   ► Because their whole thing was like Windows 8, it's the same everywhere, blah blah blah.

00:27:55 ◼   ► Well, we can make an ARM version of Windows, how about that?

00:27:57 ◼   ► And if it sold like gangbusters, they would be like full steam ahead on it.

00:28:01 ◼   ► But Surface in general didn't sell like gangbusters and the ARM version even less so because just

00:28:05 ◼   ► like Casey said, people bought them and either I can imagine people buying one saying "wow

00:28:09 ◼   ► this runs Windows, I'll be able to run everything" and being mistaken despite the fact that I'm

00:28:13 ◼   ► sure the nice Microsoft sales people tried to emphasize to them that you will not be

00:28:16 ◼   ► able to run x86 software on your ARM based Surface.

00:28:20 ◼   ► And then it required Microsoft to do the thing that has not been really good at doing lately

00:28:24 ◼   ► which is make all the people who make its third party applications also compile an ARM

00:28:28 ◼   ► version to make sure your app works on ARM.

00:28:30 ◼   ► Like Apple is the king of hurting its developer community through platform transitions, whether

00:28:35 ◼   ► it be from one CPU to the next, from desktop to phone, or from PowerPC to Intel.

00:28:41 ◼   ► Apple has done that more times and more successfully than any other technology company, and Microsoft

00:28:46 ◼   ► has not done a great job of hurting its developer community from one API set to the other, from

00:28:52 ◼   ► one CPU architecture to the other.

00:28:54 ◼   ► hell, they had a really hard time getting them onto the Windows NT codebase off of the

00:28:57 ◼   ► you know, Windows 3.1, Windows 95, Windows 98 DOS-based codebase.

00:29:02 ◼   ► So it could just be different strengths in the company.

00:29:05 ◼   ► I totally believe Apple could pull off an ARM/Mac transition, but I'm always looking

00:29:09 ◼   ► like aside from the obvious upside that we talk about all the time, Apple wants to own

00:29:13 ◼   ► and control every important technology and its products, like that is there.

00:29:16 ◼   ► That's the reason we're talking about this at all.

00:29:17 ◼   ► It totally fits with everything they want to do, but then you say, "What are you going

00:29:21 ◼   ► to do about the Mac Pro?

00:29:22 ◼   ► What are you gonna do about the MacBook Pro?

00:29:24 ◼   ► Are you gonna become a CPU design powerhouse?"

00:29:27 ◼   ► He said, "We already are a CPU design powerhouse.

00:29:29 ◼   ► Look at the A8.

00:29:30 ◼   ► We're amazing."

00:29:31 ◼   ► "Yes, alright, so I believe you could do it, but do you do it in all one big bang?"

00:29:36 ◼   ► "Do you say, 'And all the Macs are armed now, and we've got a 12-core arm for our Mac Pros

00:29:41 ◼   ► all the way down to the tiniest little arm in our Apple Watch, and we designed them all

00:29:45 ◼   ► because now we're the new Intel, and I guess we get Samsung and TSMC to fab them for us

00:29:52 ◼   ► a process node that may be a little bit behind Intel? I don't know. It worries me. The whole

00:29:57 ◼   ► thing worries me.

00:29:58 ◼   ► Well, and also, if we look at, like, did you see there was a benchmark on Geek Banks that

00:30:03 ◼   ► has been since taken down, but I saw a screenshot of it earlier. This is a benchmark of the

00:30:11 ◼   ► new MacBook, the new slow MacBook. And it's roughly equivalent to the performance of,

00:30:19 ◼   ► like 2010 MacBook Airs, like it's in that ballpark.

00:30:23 ◼   ► And I have reason to believe,

00:30:25 ◼   ► from a few details about the screenshot,

00:30:28 ◼   ► it looks legitimate.

00:30:29 ◼   ► I think this is a real deal.

00:30:31 ◼   ► So we now can see kind of what the CPU performance

00:30:35 ◼   ► would be like, I mean what the CPU performance is

00:30:39 ◼   ► as Intel tries to go all the way down to ARM level chips.

00:30:43 ◼   ► And this is not an Atom chip,

00:30:44 ◼   ► this is an actual core series chip,

00:30:47 ◼   ► but it's pretty close.

00:30:49 ◼   ► And if you think about like, compare this to the speed of the A8X chip in the iPad Air

00:30:55 ◼   ► 2, which is currently the, I believe currently like the best, the best ARM chip that's kind

00:31:01 ◼   ► of in that ballpark for like, you know, wattage and everything like that, right?

00:31:06 ◼   ► It's fairly close, you know, it's in the ballpark, it's very similar to what we're seeing in

00:31:10 ◼   ► the ARM chips, you know, in the same power envelope roughly.

00:31:14 ◼   ► So I think if you look at this, you can kind of see, well, an ARM version of this laptop

00:31:19 ◼   ► really wouldn't be that different performance or battery wise like I think

00:31:22 ◼   ► it would be certainly in the same ballpark on both of those criteria so

00:31:26 ◼   ► then the question is why go through the transition at all like if Intel can with

00:31:31 ◼   ► enough pressure and enough technology if Intel can kind of reach down to the

00:31:36 ◼   ► power levels of ARM chips to make a very low level chip that still performs okay

00:31:40 ◼   ► even though it's not great and if ARM can reach up and try to make a chip that

00:31:44 ◼   ► performs as well as Intel but still keeps that that envelope and they're

00:31:47 ◼   ► both kind of reaching the same general range by doing that, then why should Apple transition

00:31:54 ◼   ► a product line that is so well established on Intel chips and has all these massive transition

00:31:58 ◼   ► costs if they were to choose to do it? Why make the jump? It seems like there's not enough

00:32:02 ◼   ► gain to be had there.

00:32:04 ◼   ► Simon Witte tweeted at us earlier on April 1st. He may have been in the air. He says

00:32:08 ◼   ► the iPad Air 2, he just, there's not enough room in the tweet to expand this out, but

00:32:12 ◼   ► He says 27.3 watt hours.

00:32:14 ◼   ► Is that just the battery capacity?

00:32:16 ◼   ► I don't know.

00:32:17 ◼   ► Anyway, 1800, 4500 Geekbench.

00:32:19 ◼   ► Those are two numbers separated by a slash.

00:32:22 ◼   ► And it's at 20 nanometers.

00:32:23 ◼   ► And the new MacBook is 39.7 watt hours.

00:32:25 ◼   ► Again, I assume that's the battery.

00:32:27 ◼   ► 1900, 4000 Geekbench.

00:32:29 ◼   ► So it's a comparable Geekbench score and it's 14 nanometers.

00:32:33 ◼   ► So like you're saying, they're ballpark, you know, close to each other, the iPad Air 2

00:32:37 ◼   ► and the new MacBook.

00:32:39 ◼   ► But the bottom line of his tweet is Core M is $200 more.

00:32:43 ◼   ► Maybe that's retail price or whatever.

00:32:46 ◼   ► What can Apple do if they fab their own chips, save money, sell their computers for less

00:32:53 ◼   ► money, I guess?

00:32:54 ◼   ► I still think it's about owning control and not about we don't want to give a portion

00:32:59 ◼   ► of our profits to Intel.

00:33:01 ◼   ► But as I've said on many past programs, I really wish Apple and Intel, those two crazy

00:33:05 ◼   ► kids to just work this out. You know, I want I want the best I want my Macs and everything

00:33:12 ◼   ► to be fab with the best process technology human beings can make. And usually that's

00:33:16 ◼   ► Intel has that and the best CPU designs and like just I don't understand why we have to

00:33:21 ◼   ► fight Why can't I have both like, anyway,

00:33:24 ◼   ► well right now we have competition. That's great. I mean, right now you have like, you

00:33:28 ◼   ► know, I'm sure we've all heard that Apple probably has had a an R Mac, like in the labs

00:33:34 ◼   ► for testing as a contingency plan for years. I mean, that's not new, right? So, you know,

00:33:39 ◼   ► anyone who would agree to that who knows anything about this stuff. So, you know, Apple knows

00:33:44 ◼   ► they can make an ARM MacBook whenever they want to. Intel knows that Apple can make an

00:33:49 ◼   ► ARM MacBook whenever they want to. And so I think that keeps, you know, that healthy

00:33:54 ◼   ► competition there. Like, Intel has a bit of a fire lit under them in the last couple of

00:33:58 ◼   ► years to try to get these power needs down to compete with ARM because they have no meaningful

00:34:03 ◼   ► mobile presence. They really need a mobile presence if they want to see any more growth

00:34:08 ◼   ► ever again. And they certainly can't lose the business they already have in PCs and

00:34:17 ◼   ► servers. So they are working really hard and you're right, they do have the best process

00:34:23 ◼   ► manufacturing technology in the world most of the time. So I think that competition is

00:34:28 ◼   ► is great and I think we will see better results from Intel

00:34:33 ◼   ► as long as they are separate,

00:34:34 ◼   ► as long as this battle has not been settled yet.

00:34:37 ◼   ► As long as there's a threat

00:34:40 ◼   ► that Intel might lose their PC business

00:34:43 ◼   ► or any part of it to ARM,

00:34:46 ◼   ► Intel's gonna keep working really hard.

00:34:48 ◼   ► And so is ARM, and that's great.

00:34:49 ◼   ► - The semiconductor community site

00:34:51 ◼   ► that this rumor thing is on,

00:34:54 ◼   ► part of what they talk about in this article

00:34:55 ◼   ► is speculating about the idea that for future chips,

00:34:59 ◼   ► assuming this little table is correct, for future chips,

00:35:02 ◼   ► that Apple is spreading the manufacturing around,

00:35:04 ◼   ► not for technical reasons,

00:35:06 ◼   ► but just sort of the same reason

00:35:07 ◼   ► that the music makers went to Amazon

00:35:10 ◼   ► and tried to spread their business around from Apple,

00:35:12 ◼   ► just because they don't want to give any one fab

00:35:15 ◼   ► more power than the other.

00:35:17 ◼   ► So the idea is that Apple makes their own chip designs,

00:35:21 ◼   ► they own the intellectual property for the chip designs,

00:35:23 ◼   ► and they want to farm out fabbing of those chips

00:35:26 ◼   ► to the best company.

00:35:27 ◼   ► The same way they do, like who wants to assemble

00:35:30 ◼   ► our computers, who wants to make our glass,

00:35:32 ◼   ► who wants to, you know, like that's the relationship

00:35:35 ◼   ► Apple is comfortable with.

00:35:36 ◼   ► We own the intellectual property, we have a competition

00:35:39 ◼   ► amongst all these other lower margin businesses

00:35:41 ◼   ► to kill each other for our business.

00:35:43 ◼   ► Who wants to manufacture the watch?

00:35:45 ◼   ► Well, go ahead, you know, fight with each other

00:35:46 ◼   ► and we will pick the winner.

00:35:47 ◼   ► Like who wants to manufacture our car?

00:35:49 ◼   ► Like, you know what I mean?

00:35:50 ◼   ► Who wants to fab our chips?

00:35:52 ◼   ► And even if one company clearly has the best deal

00:35:55 ◼   ► and the best technology for a particular generation,

00:35:57 ◼   ► the speculation in this semiconductor,

00:35:59 ◼   ► semi wiki.com website is that Apple is saying,

00:36:03 ◼   ► if we wanted the best for the best price,

00:36:05 ◼   ► we would give all of our business to whoever,

00:36:07 ◼   ► Samsung, TSMC or whatever.

00:36:08 ◼   ► But long-term wise, it's better for us

00:36:11 ◼   ► to kind of spread it around.

00:36:12 ◼   ► So maybe give 75% to Samsung and 25% to Global Foundry,

00:36:16 ◼   ► just because we don't want to put all our eggs

00:36:18 ◼   ► in one basket.

00:36:21 ◼   ► Intel as much as Intel is in this fight or whatever like

00:36:24 ◼   ► That's the relationship. I feel like Apple once is

00:36:28 ◼   ► We just want Intel to be just another fab just like all these other people are

00:36:33 ◼   ► And then we will have you all fight amongst yourselves

00:36:36 ◼   ► And they would love to have Intel like fabbing some of their chips like we'll give Intel 50% and TSMC

00:36:41 ◼   ► 25% and like but Intel's just not in it at all

00:36:45 ◼   ► Maybe because Intel wants all their business or none of their business or demands that Apple use x86 and its phones

00:36:50 ◼   ► I'm sure Intel is showing Apple roadmaps that show

00:36:53 ◼   ► What amazing chips they're going to have that could be in an iPhone and the iPhone 7 or 8 like that's how Intel got Apple's

00:37:00 ◼   ► Business to begin with they showed them the core lineup and they said I know we have stupid Pentium 4s now

00:37:04 ◼   ► And they suck but like netburst is dead

00:37:06 ◼   ► Here's what we're gonna make for you in the future and no one can compete with it and Intel was a hundred percent, right?

00:37:10 ◼   ► They got Apple's business and they did have by far the fastest most power efficient chips

00:37:14 ◼   ► During that first generation when they were you know coming out in Apple's laptop. So

00:37:19 ◼   ► I'm sure those meetings are still taking place, but in the meantime Apple is shipping a hell of a lot of armed devices manufactured by

00:37:25 ◼   ► nameless, faceless,

00:37:27 ◼   ► sometimes very big competitors that we don't know or hear about and that's just the way Apple likes it.

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00:40:17 ◼   ► Jon, you made an interesting observation, or at least I think it was Jon, maybe it was

00:40:21 ◼   ► Mark. It's probably Jon. That maybe other people have also realized, but the first

00:40:27 ◼   ► place I saw it was here in the show notes, and you had pointed out that the

00:40:30 ◼   ► Apple TV is actually cheaper than the VGA adapter for the MacBook that only

00:40:37 ◼   ► has one port. Yeah, I'm not the first person to make that analogy, but when

00:40:40 ◼   ► Because in the same keynote, they announced the price drop of the Apple TV from $99 to

00:40:47 ◼   ► $69.

00:40:48 ◼   ► And they also announced the availability, or they announced the product, and did they

00:40:51 ◼   ► announce the availability of the adapter?

00:40:53 ◼   ► Maybe.

00:40:54 ◼   ► Shortly after the announcement, we all went to the website and looked at the adapters

00:40:57 ◼   ► for the OnePort MacBook, and one of those adapters is $79.

00:41:02 ◼   ► Oh, they should have called it the MacBook One.

00:41:04 ◼   ► What a missed opportunity.

00:41:06 ◼   ► There you go, it's like the Xbox One, they'll start over.

00:41:09 ◼   ► Exactly.

00:41:10 ◼   ► named it like the 1-1, you know that one? The car, the supercar, the hypercar, sorry,

00:41:15 ◼   ► the 1-1.

00:41:16 ◼   ► I've lost track of what you're saying. They're still words, but they're not making any sense

00:41:20 ◼   ► anymore.

00:41:21 ◼   ► I believe the chat room will tell me, is it like O-N-E and then the number one or the

00:41:26 ◼   ► reverse? You haven't heard of this either, Casey?

00:41:28 ◼   ► No.

00:41:29 ◼   ► It's because it wasn't on Top Gear, and that's where you get all your car.

00:41:31 ◼   ► Oh, don't even bring it up. I can't handle another week of feedback about that.

00:41:35 ◼   ► Anyway, the 1-1 is by the car manufacturer whose name I'm not going to attempt to pronounce,

00:41:40 ◼   ► But you know it as the really long one on the Top Gear board.

00:41:43 ◼   ► What's the name of that company with the K?

00:41:44 ◼   ► Koning Seg.

00:41:45 ◼   ► Yeah, OK, there you go.

00:41:46 ◼   ► That one.

00:41:47 ◼   ► They're making a car called the 1-1, spelled in some weird way.

00:41:51 ◼   ► And I think it's because it's one horsepower per pound

00:41:54 ◼   ► or something.

00:41:54 ◼   ► Anyway, it's insane.

00:41:55 ◼   ► Go Google the 1-1 and see what the crazy people are

00:41:59 ◼   ► making for cars.

00:42:01 ◼   ► Apparently, it's O-N-E colon numeral 1.

00:42:04 ◼   ► That's not confusing at all.

00:42:05 ◼   ► It is a cra-- you have to look at it.

00:42:07 ◼   ► It's crazy.

00:42:08 ◼   ► Anyway.

00:42:08 ◼   ► The Ferrari love Ferrari.

00:42:10 ◼   ► It is way more crazy than that and will probably break after being driven 100 miles.

00:42:14 ◼   ► But you know, like anyway.

00:42:15 ◼   ► It's, yeah, you just still get the LaFerrari, but this car is crazy.

00:42:20 ◼   ► One horsepower per kilogram, sorry, they're in European.

00:42:23 ◼   ► It's not one horsepower per man.

00:42:25 ◼   ► All right.

00:42:26 ◼   ► Anyway, the fact that the new Apple TV is cheaper than the adapter, I don't know what

00:42:32 ◼   ► it highlights.

00:42:33 ◼   ► Does it highlight the fact that that adapter is too expensive?

00:42:36 ◼   ► Does it highlight the fact that that adapter also contains silicon chips?

00:42:39 ◼   ► We know that.

00:42:41 ◼   ► Are the silicon chips that are in that adapter actually more expensive than the ancient single-core

00:42:46 ◼   ► A5 that's in the Apple TV?

00:42:50 ◼   ► I don't know, but like the price drop itself, like dropping the Apple TV from $99 to $69

00:42:58 ◼   ► all points towards, and the fact that they announced the HBO deal we'll talk about in

00:43:02 ◼   ► a second, all points towards the idea that this current Apple TV is finally, blessedly

00:43:08 ◼   ► going to not be the best Apple TV you can buy, whether it goes away or continues on

00:43:14 ◼   ► in its $69 slot, as many people think it will.

00:43:17 ◼   ► Either way, a new Apple TV is coming.

00:43:19 ◼   ► It is long overdue, and when the new Apple TV comes, by dropping this one, it leaves

00:43:23 ◼   ► room for the new Apple TV to come in at $99 to have an actual decent CPU and to not give

00:43:29 ◼   ► me obscure errors when I try to watch television programs.

00:43:32 ◼   ► And if I'm really getting greedy here, and I know everyone who has a Roku or some other

00:43:36 ◼   ► box that they love is going to tell me this is not a problem there.

00:43:39 ◼   ► But all the TV connected thingies that I have, anything that streams video, whether it's

00:43:44 ◼   ► streaming from my Synology, streaming from my Mac, streaming onto my Playstation 3, Playstation

00:43:50 ◼   ► 4, from my TiVo, from my Apple TV, what else do I have connected?

00:43:54 ◼   ► All these different devices from my TV itself, streaming from Netflix, all these things,

00:44:00 ◼   ► this one elusive piece of technology seems not to exist, which is the ability to scrub

00:44:05 ◼   ► around in a television program in anything resembling a reliable, meaningful way.

00:44:10 ◼   ► It is just like, fast forward, rewind, to be able to like, it just, sometimes fast forwarding

00:44:16 ◼   ► a rewind scan totally screws the stream and you'll have to start from the beginning.

00:44:20 ◼   ► Sometimes it kind of moves a little bit and stutters, sometimes a perfectly good stream

00:44:23 ◼   ► will stop and just like, I don't know what the problem is with this, like I do it on

00:44:27 ◼   ► web pages all the time, I move the little scrubber in YouTube and it actually works,

00:44:30 ◼   ► and yet for everything connected to my television, if I ever want to fast forward a rewind scan,

00:44:35 ◼   ► In not jump to the beginning not jump to the end but move in either direction at a speed faster than 1x playback

00:44:42 ◼   ► These applications these devices throw up their hands and say you're crazy. That's not gonna happen

00:44:48 ◼   ► Well, I don't know why you're even bothering now

00:44:50 ◼   ► Europe I will punish you with at least a three-minute delay before any picture moves again

00:44:54 ◼   ► And you won't know where you are in the stream and you won't be able to get back to where you are

00:44:57 ◼   ► And sometimes I'm you know, I'm starting over entirely

00:45:00 ◼   ► I'm gonna lose your place and you have to start over from the beginning and by the way

00:45:03 ◼   ► You can't get back to where you left off

00:45:04 ◼   ► because if you try to fast forward scan,

00:45:06 ◼   ► that won't work either.

00:45:07 ◼   ► Stream error.

00:45:08 ◼   ► Oh, it drives me nuts.

00:45:09 ◼   ► (laughing)

00:45:10 ◼   ► - I wonder if any part of it is related

00:45:12 ◼   ► to the hardware decoding chips they use

00:45:14 ◼   ► for the video codecs.

00:45:16 ◼   ► - I don't know what it's related to.

00:45:17 ◼   ► - I don't know.

00:45:18 ◼   ► I mean, that's probably not the problem.

00:45:19 ◼   ► It's probably just because they're sloppy

00:45:21 ◼   ► and cheaply made and their software

00:45:23 ◼   ► is sloppy and cheaply made.

00:45:24 ◼   ► I mean, this is like, I'm really not that into the idea

00:45:29 ◼   ► of a new Apple TV right now.

00:45:30 ◼   ► Like, I mean, it's fine.

00:45:31 ◼   ► I hope they make one and I hope it does well

00:45:33 ◼   ► and everything, but I'm not really excited

00:45:35 ◼   ► about the idea of a new Apple TV hardware device

00:45:38 ◼   ► because the problems I have with the existing Apple TV

00:45:42 ◼   ► don't seem hardware related.

00:45:44 ◼   ► - Well, that's the thing, that's what people are saying

00:45:45 ◼   ► in the chatroom as well, it's like,

00:45:47 ◼   ► when something like this happens,

00:45:48 ◼   ► like the puck or anything you connect to your TV,

00:45:50 ◼   ► you're like, what's the problem?

00:45:52 ◼   ► Is the problem that I'm not getting data

00:45:53 ◼   ► from the streaming service?

00:45:54 ◼   ► Is the problem that the software is crappy?

00:45:56 ◼   ► Is the problem that the hardware is crappy?

00:45:58 ◼   ► Is it some combination?

00:45:59 ◼   ► Sometimes is it one problem, sometimes it's the other.

00:46:01 ◼   ► is the problem that my ISP is throttling connection

00:46:04 ◼   ► to this thing and if I change my DNS,

00:46:05 ◼   ► I'll get a better stream,

00:46:06 ◼   ► is the problem that the authentication service

00:46:09 ◼   ► for iTunes aren't working and really you would stream fine

00:46:10 ◼   ► if only the authentication servers

00:46:12 ◼   ► weren't constantly installing

00:46:13 ◼   ► when it's trying to re-authenticate while I'm watching.

00:46:15 ◼   ► There are so many moving parts and there is so little

00:46:18 ◼   ► that you can debug with these closed systems

00:46:19 ◼   ► that you're just like, look,

00:46:20 ◼   ► it either has to work all the time 100%

00:46:23 ◼   ► or I just throw up my hands and I say,

00:46:27 ◼   ► I don't know what, you know, you go into Merlin Man mode,

00:46:29 ◼   ► you're like, well, I guess I'm rebooting everything I own,

00:46:30 ◼   ► I guess I'm unplugging my Apple TV from the power because it's the only way I can get

00:46:33 ◼   ► the thing to reboot because even the secret command handshake that you hold down on the

00:46:37 ◼   ► remote isn't working because the thing's frozen hard.

00:46:40 ◼   ► It is so frustrating not to know where the problem is.

00:46:43 ◼   ► Marco, you're diagnosed as saying you think it's not a hardware problem.

00:46:46 ◼   ► I think there are problems at every level.

00:46:48 ◼   ► And the hardware, because it's old, and the software, because it's so clearly in kind

00:46:53 ◼   ► of like maintenance mode, I just hope that all the good people are working on the new

00:46:56 ◼   ► version and the new version won't have these problems.

00:47:00 ◼   ► But even if they come out with new hardware and new software that's better, I also believe

00:47:03 ◼   ► that my streaming connection is crappy because I've heard that Apple uses a different connection

00:47:08 ◼   ► for streaming its Netflix than the other Netflix clients.

00:47:10 ◼   ► And I think this is mostly borne out by experimentation.

00:47:13 ◼   ► When I can't get a stream on Apple TV, Netflix client, I use my TiVo Netflix client and it

00:47:17 ◼   ► can.

00:47:18 ◼   ► Or I go to Netflix in a web browser on one of my Macs and it works.

00:47:24 ◼   ► The whole interconnected mess of things

00:47:27 ◼   ► that have to work correctly and in harmony

00:47:31 ◼   ► for me to watch a television program

00:47:32 ◼   ► streaming over the internet,

00:47:34 ◼   ► it seems like there's always at least one

00:47:36 ◼   ► out of the three layers that's screwing up,

00:47:37 ◼   ► and usually all three of them are screwing up in some way,

00:47:39 ◼   ► and it's very frustrating.

00:47:41 ◼   ► - The biggest frustration for me with these things,

00:47:44 ◼   ► so I don't know, maybe a month or two ago, two months ago,

00:47:47 ◼   ► whatever, I bought both a Roku TV,

00:47:51 ◼   ► whatever the newest Roku is,

00:47:52 ◼   ► and an Amazon Fire TV, like the big powerful one.

00:47:56 ◼   ► 'Cause we have two TVs in the house

00:47:58 ◼   ► and they both have Apple TVs

00:48:00 ◼   ► and the Apple TVs are getting so flaky,

00:48:02 ◼   ► I'm like, let me just try something else

00:48:04 ◼   ► to see what everyone's talking about.

00:48:05 ◼   ► And wanted to check out Amazon Video Service anyway.

00:48:08 ◼   ► So they're both just really mediocre.

00:48:12 ◼   ► Like they're fine.

00:48:13 ◼   ► If I had to pick one that is less crappy,

00:48:17 ◼   ► I guess I'd pick the Amazon one.

00:48:18 ◼   ► But what's really frustrating is that

00:48:21 ◼   ► the Apple TV is still the best one.

00:48:23 ◼   ► - That depresses me.

00:48:24 ◼   ► I like having the fantasy that the Roku

00:48:26 ◼   ► that everyone loves would be better.

00:48:27 ◼   ► - That's the problem.

00:48:28 ◼   ► I had that fantasy too, and now that I've been using them,

00:48:31 ◼   ► like, the Apple TV is still the best one,

00:48:34 ◼   ► which a few people on Twitter told me in advance,

00:48:36 ◼   ► so I, but I was afraid that they would be right,

00:48:39 ◼   ► and unfortunately they are.

00:48:40 ◼   ► I mean, just by general, like, just usability,

00:48:43 ◼   ► the basic interface, I mean, these other players

00:48:46 ◼   ► have had years to rip off the good stuff from Apple,

00:48:49 ◼   ► and they just haven't.

00:48:51 ◼   ► And I don't know what it is.

00:48:54 ◼   ► Maybe they just don't have the kind of sensibilities

00:48:59 ◼   ► to develop simple interfaces, I don't know.

00:49:02 ◼   ► Maybe they think the way to compete with Apple

00:49:04 ◼   ► was by throwing on a whole bunch of stuff.

00:49:06 ◼   ► - Well, but that is the, the Roku's leg up

00:49:08 ◼   ► is like it's the most flexible, it can run Plex,

00:49:11 ◼   ► it's gonna let you do everything, right?

00:49:13 ◼   ► That's what it's trying to do.

00:49:14 ◼   ► But all of these boxes, the problem is,

00:49:18 ◼   ► for all the features and all the UI or whatever,

00:49:21 ◼   ► like if I could put some big giant sign

00:49:23 ◼   ► like the big old IBM Think pads or the big Think

00:49:27 ◼   ► framed poster after that or whatever,

00:49:29 ◼   ► but I would put it all, all these people's things

00:49:30 ◼   ► is would be much longer and I'd have to come up

00:49:32 ◼   ► with a snappy phrasing for it, but the bottom line is,

00:49:35 ◼   ► when I wanna watch a program,

00:49:36 ◼   ► I want to press a series of buttons and have video play,

00:49:39 ◼   ► pretty much immediately.

00:49:41 ◼   ► And that has to work, and that has to work every time.

00:49:44 ◼   ► Maybe it's because I'm old,

00:49:46 ◼   ► because I come from a place where a television,

00:49:48 ◼   ► If your television wasn't broken, then you turned it on,

00:49:50 ◼   ► you could see moving pictures pretty much instantly,

00:49:53 ◼   ► every time, right?

00:49:54 ◼   ► - The funny thing is, what you want out of seeking,

00:49:58 ◼   ► VCR is offered that perfectly.

00:50:00 ◼   ► - Right, exactly.

00:50:01 ◼   ► It wasn't great, but you could do it on a VCR,

00:50:04 ◼   ► you can do it on DVDs.

00:50:05 ◼   ► It was like, wow, I can skip without scrubbing through.

00:50:07 ◼   ► You know what I mean?

00:50:08 ◼   ► - Yeah, and there wasn't little staticky lines on DVDs

00:50:10 ◼   ► when you fast forwarded.

00:50:11 ◼   ► - You could pause, you could like, right,

00:50:12 ◼   ► we seem to have been making progress,

00:50:13 ◼   ► and now streaming, when it works right,

00:50:15 ◼   ► it's like, this is what I want, it's magic.

00:50:16 ◼   ► I have access to a million shows anytime I want them.

00:50:19 ◼   ► I can go to any part of the-- like, it's amazing, right?

00:50:21 ◼   ► They're organized by season.

00:50:22 ◼   ► Whole season's released at once.

00:50:23 ◼   ► Like, all the magic-- but all the magic crumbles into dust

00:50:26 ◼   ► as soon as I sit down in front of television,

00:50:27 ◼   ► press a series of buttons on my remote,

00:50:29 ◼   ► and moving pictures do not start happening.

00:50:32 ◼   ► And I either get an error message or something else.

00:50:34 ◼   ► And it's like-- and it doesn't happen to happen.

00:50:36 ◼   ► Like, 90% of the time, it works, right?

00:50:38 ◼   ► But that 10% just destroys the illusion

00:50:40 ◼   ► that I'm living in a future where things work.

00:50:44 ◼   ► So it's funny that Marco had brought up the Roku and the Fire TV and compared them to

00:50:50 ◼   ► the Apple TV because I maybe a month ago got a Fire TV stick, which is the less powerful

00:50:57 ◼   ► version of what Marco got. What Marco got is physically, as far as I know, is about

00:51:03 ◼   ► the same size as an Apple TV. Is that fair to say?

00:51:05 ◼   ► It's like an Apple TV that's been rolled over by a steamroller slightly. So it's like just

00:51:10 ◼   ► Same volume roughly, but just flatter and mm-hmm wider

00:51:13 ◼   ► Okay

00:51:14 ◼   ► So the fire TV stick is more like a chromecast in that it's just a little HDMI dongle and a little power brick to power it

00:51:21 ◼   ► And I got it on Dan Morin's recommendation because he had said he had had pretty good luck with fire TV

00:51:27 ◼   ► And I don't believe he had said he had ever tried the stick

00:51:29 ◼   ► But they're roughly equivalent unless you have a really really nice home theater setup

00:51:34 ◼   ► Which I do not so I got this fire TV stick. I believe it's $40 in Amazon

00:51:39 ◼   ► And I love it and the reason I love it mostly is because I can use Plex with it natively

00:51:47 ◼   ► I

00:51:48 ◼   ► Basically the only things I tend to do with my Apple TV are

00:51:51 ◼   ► airplane mirroring

00:51:54 ◼   ► typically video, but not always or

00:51:57 ◼   ► Netflix

00:51:59 ◼   ► the fire TV stick

00:52:01 ◼   ► Doesn't natively support a airplane mirroring of course there are apps that you can download and pay for to get airplane mirroring

00:52:08 ◼   ► I have bought a couple and they're not very good, which is not surprising, but they're enough in a pinch

00:52:14 ◼   ► But it has Netflix and it has Plex and that is easily 90% of what I want out of a

00:52:23 ◼   ► Box or dongle connected to my TV and again what makes the fire TV stick so wonderful for me is that the Plex support is?

00:52:31 ◼   ► Fantastic rather than airplane from my iPad or my iPhone or yes

00:52:36 ◼   ► I'm aware of that god-awful hack you can do with the trailers app on the Apple TV. I'm not going to do that

00:52:41 ◼   ► So it's I love it because it works great with Plex you can seek usually with Plex

00:52:47 ◼   ► It works pretty darn well with

00:52:50 ◼   ► Netflix so I really like it now that being said the user interface is crappy Marco is exactly right that the user interface

00:52:58 ◼   ► It's it's different but and too much Android leaks out for my taste like not that I have anything

00:53:05 ◼   ► Intrinsically against Android but fiddly bits that I shouldn't have to worry about

00:53:09 ◼   ► Yeah, I guess I don't have to worry about them, but they're still there

00:53:13 ◼   ► Like do you want to allow sideloading like that? Why is that even an option? No, I don't want that and

00:53:18 ◼   ► The way you go and get like apps is a little weird

00:53:22 ◼   ► It's just like a generic search which maybe is better

00:53:24 ◼   ► But I it's weird to me that when I search for Plex I could be ending up an app so I could be ending up on

00:53:30 ◼   ► Audio or whatever the case may be so there are definitely odd bits to the user interface

00:53:35 ◼   ► But by and large I like it and the other thing I really like about it that just occurred to me

00:53:40 ◼   ► Is that the remote is either Bluetooth or RF or something?

00:53:44 ◼   ► so that you do not need to point the remote at the Apple TV, which is really awesome because our Apple TV is

00:53:49 ◼   ► Kind of tucked away a little bit and not

00:53:52 ◼   ► extraordinarily easy to point a remote at so for all of those reasons

00:53:57 ◼   ► I really love my fire TV stick and I definitely recommend it if if you're if you have similar needs from your

00:54:04 ◼   ► Device that I do now Marco

00:54:06 ◼   ► I think you have very different needs from your device and as far as I recall you get a lot of your media through iTunes

00:54:12 ◼   ► Is that right?

00:54:13 ◼   ► It's not as much anymore

00:54:15 ◼   ► the the the constant

00:54:18 ◼   ► DRM errors on authentication trying to play my media that I've bought from iTunes

00:54:22 ◼   ► Is really convincing me to try to stop doing that. I actually went when I got these boxes

00:54:27 ◼   ► I did start using Plex I installed myself Plex for the very first time

00:54:31 ◼   ► Using Plex for me feels a lot like building a gaming PC in the sense that I'm getting a lot of functionality

00:54:38 ◼   ► more than I actually really need

00:54:41 ◼   ► but also coming at a cost of maintenance and fiddliness that

00:54:47 ◼   ► I'm sure I just have settings wrong, but it's just so freaking fiddly.

00:54:52 ◼   ► Plex?

00:54:53 ◼   ► Yeah.

00:54:54 ◼   ► There's nothing, the only fiddly thing about Plex is that you have to use their naming

00:54:58 ◼   ► convention which is not my favorite but not so egregious that I can't bend to it.

00:55:05 ◼   ► Other than that, everything just works magically.

00:55:08 ◼   ► I can watch my media that's stored on my Synology anywhere in the world as long as I have an

00:55:13 ◼   ► internet connection.

00:55:14 ◼   ► It will automatically transcode on the fly to whatever my speed is as it sees fit.

00:55:19 ◼   ► And it will grab all the metadata it needs as long as I name things appropriately.

00:55:23 ◼   ► Like I, I could not disagree more.

00:55:25 ◼   ► I've had nothing but wonderful experiences with Plex.

00:55:28 ◼   ► I've tried to use Plex, but like my problem has always been, I don't have anything attached

00:55:31 ◼   ► to my television that can run it.

00:55:33 ◼   ► And once the PS4 version of Plex came out, I'm like, now finally, well, now this is when

00:55:38 ◼   ► my PS4 was still attached to my television.

00:55:39 ◼   ► But anyway, I figured, well, the PS4 version of Plex came out, I should try it.

00:55:45 ◼   ► And I did, and it's very bad, and the setup process was super painful, and there's no

00:55:49 ◼   ► way a human could have figured out the crap that I had to go through to try to get this

00:55:52 ◼   ► thing to work in terms of opening ports on my modem and getting reverse lookups.

00:55:55 ◼   ► It was just like insanity, right?

00:55:57 ◼   ► But what I'm looking for out of – yeah, that's just because of the PS4.

00:56:01 ◼   ► I've used Plex on my Mac before, and it's way nicer.

00:56:03 ◼   ► Like the Mac version of Plex – if I could get the Mac version of Plex on my TV, say,

00:56:06 ◼   ► by having a Mac Mini or something,

00:56:07 ◼   ► it would make a big difference, right?

00:56:10 ◼   ► But anyway, what I'm looking for out of Plex,

00:56:12 ◼   ► and why probably no one will ever have it,

00:56:14 ◼   ► is I think what you're talking about, Casey,

00:56:16 ◼   ► that the dream thing,

00:56:17 ◼   ► sort of the software-connected box equivalent

00:56:20 ◼   ► of the omnivorous box that I was dreaming about

00:56:22 ◼   ► way back when, like that someone will make a box

00:56:25 ◼   ► that takes video input from everywhere and unifies it

00:56:27 ◼   ► so I don't actually care where it comes from,

00:56:29 ◼   ► and it would do everything.

00:56:30 ◼   ► Like, no one ever made that, and no one ever probably will.

00:56:33 ◼   ► The software equivalent of that is like Plex,

00:56:35 ◼   ► where it's like, give me your video.

00:56:38 ◼   ► Do you have random BitTorrent things

00:56:40 ◼   ► that you illegally downloaded?

00:56:41 ◼   ► Do you have videos that you rip?

00:56:42 ◼   ► Do you have videos of your kid?

00:56:44 ◼   ► Do you have Blu-ray extractions that you made with MKV,

00:56:47 ◼   ► make MKV from Blu-rays that you own?

00:56:51 ◼   ► I don't care where this video came from.

00:56:53 ◼   ► You just throw it all into the pit.

00:56:55 ◼   ► And I don't care what you name them.

00:56:57 ◼   ► I don't care what's in them.

00:56:58 ◼   ► I have this crazy crowd-sourced internet-powered database.

00:57:03 ◼   ► well I will figure out what the heck these files are,

00:57:05 ◼   ► I'll look at the fingerprints of the data,

00:57:09 ◼   ► organize it into seasons, give you cover art,

00:57:12 ◼   ► give you descriptions of every episode.

00:57:14 ◼   ► Plex does a hell of a lot of that.

00:57:17 ◼   ► Plex you can more or less throw a bunch of stuff at,

00:57:19 ◼   ► like the metadata lookup, the cover art,

00:57:22 ◼   ► being able to play a million different crazy formats,

00:57:24 ◼   ► transcoding on the fly, doing all that stuff,

00:57:28 ◼   ► Plex and various other utilities

00:57:30 ◼   ► and other sort of software apps do a lot of that,

00:57:33 ◼   ► but they're a little bit flaky,

00:57:36 ◼   ► they can't really play every file that you download.

00:57:38 ◼   ► Sometimes the device you're running it on

00:57:39 ◼   ► can't transcode fast enough to handle this thing.

00:57:42 ◼   ► Sometimes you lose the 5.1 track

00:57:44 ◼   ► and it mixes it down to something else.

00:57:46 ◼   ► You can't see the special features

00:57:47 ◼   ► from your DVDs or your Blu-rays.

00:57:48 ◼   ► Like the limitations just start stacking up and stacking up.

00:57:52 ◼   ► And because no one, like none of the legit people

00:57:55 ◼   ► are motivated to be able to take your illegal downloads

00:57:58 ◼   ► or your rips of DVDs and figure out what they are and sort them into sessions, Apple's never

00:58:02 ◼   ► going to do that.

00:58:03 ◼   ► Like, Roku's probably not even going to do that other than running the Plex app, right?

00:58:07 ◼   ► And so this is definitely an in-betweeny stage where we are in the transition from broadcast

00:58:13 ◼   ► television to streaming television, and there's lots of sort of do-it-yourselfer solutions

00:58:16 ◼   ► that work to varying degrees, but I feel like to come over the hump, the non-broadcast television

00:58:25 ◼   ► needs to be like the old one in one specific way.

00:58:29 ◼   ► When you press play, video has to play.

00:58:31 ◼   ► And I don't care where the problem is

00:58:33 ◼   ► and neither does anyone else.

00:58:33 ◼   ► Is it with the networks?

00:58:34 ◼   ► Is it an ISP fighting with Netflix or something?

00:58:39 ◼   ► Is it the hardware?

00:58:40 ◼   ► Is it my router?

00:58:42 ◼   ► Is it jumbo packets?

00:58:43 ◼   ► I don't care.

00:58:44 ◼   ► I just want video to play.

00:58:47 ◼   ► And I have to say, of all this complaining

00:58:49 ◼   ► about streaming devices,

00:58:50 ◼   ► the one television connected device

00:58:52 ◼   ► that I have in my house that is closest

00:58:53 ◼   ► the ideal of press play and video plays is the TiVo. Why? Because it's piggybacking on

00:58:59 ◼   ► the old cruddy coaxial cable that comes into my house that delivers television, which has,

00:59:04 ◼   ► you know, developed over the years to be different than what it was. But, yeah, you know, I have

00:59:11 ◼   ► a cable card, the coaxial cable goes into the back of my TV, I pay for all the pay channels,

00:59:16 ◼   ► I pay for all the fancy stuff, right? And then there's a hard drive and an incredibly

00:59:20 ◼   ► weak CPU and a bunch of video decoding chips that record six of those channels at once

00:59:25 ◼   ► onto a hard drive and when I press play it plays the video off that hard drive and when

00:59:29 ◼   ► I fast forward and rewind it fast forwards and rewinds and it works every time and it

00:59:34 ◼   ► doesn't crash and I don't get authentication errors and that's you know it does have a

00:59:37 ◼   ► Netflix client on it which is flaky and it does have all these other streaming clients

00:59:41 ◼   ► on it which are flaky but for the core purpose of recording video that's coming over my house

00:59:44 ◼   ► through the coaxial cable that I pay for it works and so my vast preference is record

00:59:50 ◼   ► Game of Thrones on my TiVo, watch it on my TiVo.

00:59:53 ◼   ► Yes, I have HBO Go, yes I have HBO Now, I have blah blah blah blah blah.

00:59:57 ◼   ► You know what I know will work?

00:59:58 ◼   ► Sit down in front of the TiVo, turn it on, go down to Game of Thrones, hit play, the

01:00:00 ◼   ► video will play.

01:00:01 ◼   ► Every time it plays.

01:00:03 ◼   ► And that, like, that's going to keep me loyal to TiVo and it's going to keep me paying my

01:00:07 ◼   ► whatever the heck it is, huge bill for real live old fashioned cable servers until these

01:00:12 ◼   ► streaming people can get their acts together to the point where now I can start choosing

01:00:16 ◼   ► things based on features or pricing or something like that.

01:00:19 ◼   ► but right now I'm choosing based on reliability.

01:00:21 ◼   ► - Yeah, I hear that.

01:00:22 ◼   ► I mean, it sounds like we all

01:00:24 ◼   ► sort of have our own unique needs.

01:00:26 ◼   ► Jon apparently boils down to just freaking work.

01:00:29 ◼   ► But yeah, I don't know.

01:00:31 ◼   ► It's sad that this hasn't been solved,

01:00:35 ◼   ► which I know, I think this is where you started, Jon,

01:00:37 ◼   ► but it's sad that this is still,

01:00:39 ◼   ► that Marco and I both felt like we needed

01:00:43 ◼   ► two different manufacturers' boxes

01:00:46 ◼   ► in order to fix this problem.

01:00:48 ◼   ► And neither of us feels completely satisfied with that fix.

01:00:53 ◼   ► - Yeah, all of us have multiple things.

01:00:54 ◼   ► Like I have, I watch things from Netflix

01:00:57 ◼   ► and I choose the Apple TV to be my Netflix client

01:00:59 ◼   ► because it has no fan.

01:01:00 ◼   ► I watch things from streaming video.

01:01:01 ◼   ► I buy things from iTunes.

01:01:03 ◼   ► Like I do all of it, right?

01:01:04 ◼   ► But it's like, when I have a choice,

01:01:05 ◼   ► sometimes you don't have a choice.

01:01:06 ◼   ► Like when I have a choice, TiVo is my go-to.

01:01:08 ◼   ► But if I don't, I go down the cascade.

01:01:10 ◼   ► Do I wanna try to stream it off my Synology?

01:01:12 ◼   ► Do I wanna try to watch it on Apple TV's Netflix client?

01:01:14 ◼   ► Do I wanna try my TV's built-in Netflix client?

01:01:16 ◼   ► Sometimes I make the rounds until one of them works right.

01:01:18 ◼   ► Sometimes my kid wants to watch a movie that I have.

01:01:21 ◼   ► I bought it on iTunes.

01:01:22 ◼   ► I have an illegally downloaded file.

01:01:24 ◼   ► I have the Blu-ray.

01:01:25 ◼   ► I have the DVD.

01:01:26 ◼   ► This is a very common case.

01:01:27 ◼   ► There are movies where I have all those things, right?

01:01:30 ◼   ► And it's like, how should we watch that file?

01:01:34 ◼   ► Is it important to make pictures moving on the television as fast as possible before

01:01:37 ◼   ► the kid gets cranky?

01:01:39 ◼   ► Or is it, for me, is it important because it's a family viewing that I'm going to take

01:01:42 ◼   ► out the actual Blu-ray disc and put it in because that has the highest fidelity video

01:01:45 ◼   ► and sound and that's very important to me. Why I own a big stack of Blu-rays, right?

01:01:49 ◼   ► Because movies that I already own and that I already watch, I like to have on Blu-ray

01:01:52 ◼   ► if I really care about the movie because it is the best quality. So having to be like

01:01:57 ◼   ► a connoisseur of like, "How do I want to watch this today?" and having to pick based on quality

01:02:03 ◼   ► and predicted reliability and speed and which one is just going to work, especially with

01:02:08 ◼   ► illegal downloads, which thing will actually successfully play this? Let's try it directly

01:02:12 ◼   ► from the Synology on my TV. Let's try it through the PlayStation media server. Let's try it

01:02:16 ◼   ► through Plex. Let's try transcoding it manually." And it's like, you know, sometimes you just

01:02:20 ◼   ► want to watch a movie.

01:02:21 ◼   ► Well, and the sad part is, like, I've hired almost nothing, and it still sucks. Like,

01:02:27 ◼   ► you can do everything "right." You can totally buy into one of these ecosystems, you know,

01:02:33 ◼   ► whether it's the Apple ecosystem, the Amazon, whatever, you can totally buy into it. You

01:02:37 ◼   ► can do everything right the way most people do, and it still doesn't work very well.

01:02:42 ◼   ► worse because that's a monoculture. You need biological diversity, right? That's why, like,

01:02:46 ◼   ► doing illegally has the advantage that there won't be like unskippable FBI warnings at the

01:02:52 ◼   ► front of it. You'll be, you won't have to fight through seven layers of menus and downloading new

01:02:56 ◼   ► Java updates on your Blu-ray player just to get to the movie. Like, pirating is almost always better,

01:03:00 ◼   ► but then like, okay, well now I don't get the, uh, I don't like the way this was transcoded,

01:03:04 ◼   ► or it was cropped wrong, or I don't like the the audio tracks that were included in this,

01:03:08 ◼   ► or they don't get the director's commentary. There's always trade-offs, but I would say,

01:03:12 ◼   ► Overall, illegal gives you a better experience.

01:03:15 ◼   ► Like again, even for movies that I own the discs for, sometimes if I just want to watch

01:03:20 ◼   ► the thing right now, I will look at either the ripped version of it or the illegally

01:03:23 ◼   ► downloaded version of it because I know I'll get to the movie part faster.

01:03:28 ◼   ► And that's one of the reasons why I've been ripping all my Blu-rays using Don Melton scripts

01:03:32 ◼   ► because like I bought this LG Blu-ray ripper and I have this Mac Mini that's doing this

01:03:37 ◼   ► live stream now and when it's not doing live streaming tasks it's doing Plex and Blu-ray

01:03:41 ◼   ► ripping and I'm doing all that because I keep having these stupid errors with stuff I've

01:03:45 ◼   ► actually bought on iTunes and like yeah like when my kid wants to watch a Pixar movie and

01:03:50 ◼   ► we try to play it and it doesn't and I can't get it playing after 10 minutes of fiddling

01:03:53 ◼   ► with stuff because of random Apple TV or CDN or service errors it's I want to just have

01:03:59 ◼   ► it locally on the LAN and have it play which used to work great but now home sharing sucks

01:04:06 ◼   ► And it's like everything sucks.

01:04:08 ◼   ► - You should never have turned off jumbo frames, Marco.

01:04:10 ◼   ► (laughing)

01:04:12 ◼   ► - Like I really, I don't get, it is so frustrating.

01:04:16 ◼   ► And the good thing is I think there is hope in sight.

01:04:21 ◼   ► Right now there is kind of this inconvenient hole,

01:04:26 ◼   ► or this inconvenient division in the market right now

01:04:28 ◼   ► because you can't get all the big stuff in one box basically

01:04:33 ◼   ► because the biggest offenders are that Apple,

01:04:36 ◼   ► the Apple TV is the problem basically.

01:04:38 ◼   ► That the Apple TV is the only thing

01:04:40 ◼   ► that can play iTunes stuff,

01:04:41 ◼   ► and the Apple TV can't, for the most part,

01:04:43 ◼   ► can't do Plex, and it can't play Amazon Instant Video.

01:04:47 ◼   ► If there is a future Apple TV coming out soon

01:04:49 ◼   ► that offers an app platform,

01:04:51 ◼   ► maybe that is how Apple will kind of finally,

01:04:54 ◼   ► quietly allow those things to happen on the Apple TV,

01:04:57 ◼   ► without having to partner with Amazon,

01:04:59 ◼   ► which they really probably wouldn't want to do,

01:05:01 ◼   ► and without having to install Plex as a built-in app,

01:05:03 ◼   ► which might cause piracy concern,

01:05:06 ◼   ► pressure from their content partners, whatever.

01:05:08 ◼   ► Like, if there's just another Apple TV

01:05:12 ◼   ► that has great hardware and an app platform,

01:05:16 ◼   ► and they permit Plex and Amazon TV to build apps for it,

01:05:20 ◼   ► which they almost certainly would,

01:05:22 ◼   ► then that, I think, will be a really great box, potentially,

01:05:27 ◼   ► if it actually works.

01:05:28 ◼   ► And maybe by then they will have fixed DiscoveryD,

01:05:31 ◼   ► which I assume is probably what's causing

01:05:33 ◼   ► all the home sharing issues.

01:05:35 ◼   ► - I still feel like the ISP issue is unresolved.

01:05:38 ◼   ► Like the battle between the content providers

01:05:41 ◼   ► and the content owners, whether it be HBO or Netflix

01:05:43 ◼   ► or some combination, and the ISPs who just want

01:05:46 ◼   ► a cut of everything and want, you know,

01:05:47 ◼   ► like the whole strangling networks that they know

01:05:49 ◼   ► that Netflix content comes from and like the whole

01:05:51 ◼   ► net neutrality thing, like that needs to sort it out.

01:05:55 ◼   ► You know, you need everything to work.

01:05:56 ◼   ► Even if all the hardware and software and business deals get worked out on the device

01:06:01 ◼   ► connected to your TV, if the ISP is still in a spat with one or more of those people,

01:06:06 ◼   ► your experience is going to suck.

01:06:07 ◼   ► And there's like nothing you can do about it because you'll do like a speed test and

01:06:10 ◼   ► you're like, "You've got 100 megabits down, but you can't watch a video at more than 480p."

01:06:15 ◼   ► And even then it stalls sometimes.

01:06:16 ◼   ► It's like, "Why am I even paying for this service?"

01:06:19 ◼   ► You know, that's I guess the HBO Now deal that was part of the same keynote with the

01:06:24 ◼   ► the one port MacBook, right?

01:06:25 ◼   ► - It's called the MacBook One now, Jon.

01:06:28 ◼   ► - Yes. - That's what we're calling it.

01:06:29 ◼   ► - God, all right, but before we do the HBO One stuff,

01:06:32 ◼   ► let's thank our last sponsor.

01:06:35 ◼   ► - Our last sponsor is Harry's.

01:06:37 ◼   ► Go to harrys.com, H-A-R-R-Y-S.com,

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01:06:44 ◼   ► Harry's offers high quality razors and blades

01:06:47 ◼   ► for a fraction of the price of the big razor brands

01:06:50 ◼   ► you usually see in drugstores.

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01:06:55 ◼   ► a leg.

01:06:56 ◼   ► They make their own blades from their own factory."

01:06:58 ◼   ► There's actually an old blade factory in Germany that they liked so much that they bought the

01:07:02 ◼   ► factory.

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01:07:07 ◼   ► And this is not, you know, I was reading a little up on this for this week.

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01:07:16 ◼   ► There's a lot of engineering, a lot of R&D that goes into that.

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01:07:35 ◼   ► They are usually about half the price or less compared to something like a Gillette Fusion

01:07:41 ◼   ► or something like that.

01:07:42 ◼   ► Which I would say the Gillette Fusion is the most direct, the most equivalent rival in

01:07:47 ◼   ► the market.

01:07:48 ◼   ► An eight pack of Harry's blades is just 15 bucks.

01:07:51 ◼   ► A 16 pack is just 25 bucks.

01:07:54 ◼   ► For reference, 12 Fusion blades are $41.

01:07:59 ◼   ► 12 Harry's blades are just $20.

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01:08:27 ◼   ► this nice like old style but modernized and you know, it still has that classy old look.

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01:08:38 ◼   ► like you're using like an Android commercial. Like you feel like you're using something

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01:09:12 ◼   ► Thank you very much to Harry's for sponsoring once again.

01:09:14 ◼   ► All right, so back to the HBO deal that came up in the last Apple keynote.

01:09:19 ◼   ► Yeah, this is framed as an Apple win, but really it is just the natural evolution of

01:09:26 ◼   ► HBO.

01:09:27 ◼   ► In the past, they were a thing you had to buy as a premium addition to your cable bill.

01:09:32 ◼   ► And they had the HBO Go application, which first you could only watch on iOS devices

01:09:37 ◼   ► and then eventually they let you stream to your television.

01:09:39 ◼   ► But the important point was you couldn't do anything with that iOS app at all unless you

01:09:43 ◼   ► had a cable subscription that included HBO.

01:09:47 ◼   ► And that frustrated people because they were like, "Come on, HBO.

01:09:50 ◼   ► This is the future."

01:09:51 ◼   ► The whole point of us watching your content on our streaming Apple TV puck thing or on

01:09:58 ◼   ► our iPhone or on our iPad is that we don't want to pay for cable.

01:10:01 ◼   ► In fact, we're cable cutters.

01:10:02 ◼   ► We don't want to pay for cable at all, except of course for internet access, which we'll

01:10:05 ◼   ► never get rid of that.

01:10:06 ◼   ► But anyway, we don't want to pay for cable television.

01:10:09 ◼   ► We don't watch ESPN or we watch it on their website or we watch things on YouTube or whatever.

01:10:15 ◼   ► Divorce your service from the cable television industry.

01:10:17 ◼   ► And now finally, HBO is ready to do that.

01:10:20 ◼   ► They're not ready to do it themselves because apparently their technology act is not together

01:10:23 ◼   ► on the whole HBO Go front, so they're outsourcing it, I believe, to the MLB.TV people, the people

01:10:28 ◼   ► who do Major League Baseball television streaming, which by all accounts, despite the silly black

01:10:32 ◼   ► out nonsense, the actual streaming part of it works pretty well. So there are high hopes

01:10:36 ◼   ► for this business. If you pay them $15 a month, you can watch HBO. You don't need to have

01:10:41 ◼   ► a cable subscription. All you need is some device that can do this. And it is exclusive

01:10:45 ◼   ► to Apple for how long? Like six months or three months or…?

01:10:49 ◼   ► I thought it was three. But I've also heard that it's not really

01:10:53 ◼   ► exclusive to Apple. I didn't read up on this because I don't really watch HBO and

01:10:56 ◼   ► and I don't have HBO, but I could swear I'd read somewhere recently that it may or may

01:11:02 ◼   ► not actually be exclusive.

01:11:03 ◼   ► Yeah, well, but the deal is like, you know, so the new season of Game of Thrones is starting,

01:11:08 ◼   ► and Apple did just drop the price on its little silly puck thing. So for $69, cord cutters

01:11:14 ◼   ► can buy a puck, and $15 a month, they can watch Game of Thrones. They can watch it in

01:11:18 ◼   ► theory whenever they want without a cable subscription, without borrowing some borrowing,

01:11:23 ◼   ► "someone's HBO Go password" who does subscribe to HBO, which was the past practice, and for

01:11:29 ◼   ► a short period of time, which includes the time that the Game of Thrones season will

01:11:33 ◼   ► be premiering.

01:11:34 ◼   ► The only way to do this, or according to Apple the only way, is on their particular thing.

01:11:37 ◼   ► But that will expire and very soon I'm sure HBO Now will be available everywhere and it's

01:11:42 ◼   ► exactly what we all wanted out of HBO.

01:11:44 ◼   ► And this is the slow crumbling of all the people who are holding out, holding the line

01:11:48 ◼   ► and old media going towards, like what Margo said, eventually a potential app platform,

01:11:54 ◼   ► kind of like we have on iOS today, where there's a series of applications that you can use

01:11:57 ◼   ► to watch, you know, NBA or MLB or maybe, I don't know if the NFL is out there, all these

01:12:03 ◼   ► three-letter acronyms for sport things that none of us watch.

01:12:06 ◼   ► I do.

01:12:07 ◼   ► Yeah.

01:12:08 ◼   ► Do they have an NFL app?

01:12:09 ◼   ► You can tell me, maybe.

01:12:10 ◼   ► They do, but it only is useful if you get NFL Sunday Ticket, which you can only get

01:12:14 ◼   ► if you're a DirecTV subscriber or live in, like, the UK or whatever.

01:12:18 ◼   ► Yeah, so those deals, yeah, they're still kind of entrenched, but trying to slowly divorce

01:12:23 ◼   ► themselves.

01:12:24 ◼   ► Like, that I shouldn't have to pay for cable television or satellite television or whatever,

01:12:28 ◼   ► I should just be able to a la carte buy the...

01:12:31 ◼   ► It's still, you know, it's not the shows you want, you're still buying the channels you

01:12:34 ◼   ► want, right?

01:12:35 ◼   ► You're buying HBO, you're not buying Game of Thrones.

01:12:38 ◼   ► People would rather just be able to get Game of Thrones without buying the season on iTunes

01:12:42 ◼   ► after it's already aired or whatever, or the day after it aired.

01:12:45 ◼   ► Like, we're narrowing it, getting closer and closer.

01:12:47 ◼   ► There used to be you couldn't get a digital version of a television show ever, and then

01:12:51 ◼   ► you could get a digital version of a television show much later, and then you could get it

01:12:54 ◼   ► the next day, and now you're going to be able to watch it at the same time as the people

01:12:57 ◼   ► who subscribe to HBO.

01:12:58 ◼   ► Again, in theory, because if their servers are crushed under the weight of all the people

01:13:03 ◼   ► trying to do that, I know my TiVo will record it and I'll be able to watch it in real time.

01:13:07 ◼   ► That's the great thing about HBO, no commercials.

01:13:11 ◼   ► You can watch it in real time because you don't have to wait for the commercials to

01:13:13 ◼   ► queue up.

01:13:14 ◼   ► But anyway, I continue to watch those things on my nice reliable TV, but they're trying to get to the future and I feel like

01:13:19 ◼   ► If people go out and get the $69 puck so they can watch it and pay the subscription to HBO

01:13:26 ◼   ► So they can watch Game of Thrones finally in you know without borrowing someone's password

01:13:30 ◼   ► I'm without having to subscribe to HBO and they plug in the puck and they turn it on

01:13:34 ◼   ► They're all excited to watch them and they got their popcorn and maybe there's some friends over and they hit play and it doesn't play

01:13:38 ◼   ► They're not gonna be excited about the future of streaming TV

01:13:41 ◼   ► They're gonna regret that $69 purchase and when the new Apple TV comes out for $99

01:13:46 ◼   ► They're not gonna be enthused about buying that it is so easy to sour a normal person not a geek

01:13:50 ◼   ► But like a semi normal person on the experience of TV connected pucks by just having it not work once and them going

01:13:57 ◼   ► You know what? I didn't like paying for cable

01:13:59 ◼   ► I didn't like paying extra on top of cable for HBO

01:14:01 ◼   ► But at least I could watch my show when I wanted to watch my show. I have nothing to add

01:14:05 ◼   ► I agree with you completely. I mean, I think you nailed it

01:14:10 ◼   ► Thanks a lot to our three sponsors this week Reuters TV Squarespace and Harry's and we will see you next week

01:14:16 ◼   ► Now the show is over they didn't even mean to begin because it was accidental

01:14:26 ◼   ► was accidental

01:14:29 ◼   ► John did any research Marco and Casey wouldn't let him because it was accidental

01:14:36 ◼   ► was accidental

01:14:39 ◼   ► And you can find the show notes at ATP.FM And if you're into Twitter, you can follow

01:14:46 ◼   ► them at C-A-S-E-Y-L-I-S-S So that's Kasey Liss M-A-R-C-O-A-R-M

01:14:56 ◼   ► Auntie Marco Armin S-I-R-A-C-U-S-A, Syracuse

01:15:06 ◼   ► ♪ It's accidental ♪

01:15:08 ◼   ► ♪ Accidental ♪

01:15:10 ◼   ► ♪ They didn't mean to ♪

01:15:12 ◼   ► ♪ Accidental ♪

01:15:13 ◼   ► ♪ Accidental ♪

01:15:14 ◼   ► ♪ Tech podcast ♪

01:15:16 ◼   ► ♪ So long ♪

01:15:18 ◼   ► - My stories, they call it.

01:15:21 ◼   ► Why do I watch my stories?

01:15:22 ◼   ► - Wow. - Good God.

01:15:25 ◼   ► All right, Marko, we talked a little bit earlier

01:15:29 ◼   ► and we told you to save it for the after show

01:15:32 ◼   ► about how you're falling out of love with Twitter,

01:15:34 ◼   ► which is funny because I feel like you're coming

01:15:37 ◼   ► to a conclusion quicker than I am,

01:15:39 ◼   ► but I have been having similar feelings about,

01:15:43 ◼   ► is really, is Twitter really doing anything positive for me

01:15:48 ◼   ► or is it just making me angry all the time?

01:15:51 ◼   ► - Well, like the thing that I quoted to you guys before,

01:15:54 ◼   ► I put it in the show notes,

01:15:55 ◼   ► so maybe you looked it up by now,

01:15:56 ◼   ► but did any of you recognize the quote I was referencing

01:15:58 ◼   ► when Marco first talked about this?

01:16:00 ◼   ► - Nope.

01:16:00 ◼   ► - This is an older quote, it's from 1777.

01:16:03 ◼   ► I don't know if you guys remember back that far.

01:16:05 ◼   ► - We're not as old as you, Jon.

01:16:06 ◼   ► - Yeah, it's from Samuel Johnson,

01:16:08 ◼   ► and the well-known part of it is,

01:16:11 ◼   ► I'll read the whole thing.

01:16:13 ◼   ► You find no man at all intellectual

01:16:15 ◼   ► who is willing to leave London.

01:16:16 ◼   ► No, sir, when a man is tired of London, he is tired of life,

01:16:19 ◼   ► for there is in London all that life can afford.

01:16:22 ◼   ► And that was my way of saying that

01:16:24 ◼   ► it's not specifically Twitter that is a tiresome thing,

01:16:28 ◼   ► in that I think at this point,

01:16:30 ◼   ► Twitter offers all that life can afford, more or less.

01:16:34 ◼   ► It is exposure to lots of people, which can happen anywhere on the internet, whether it

01:16:39 ◼   ► be in a Usenet group, where the exact same toxic things that Marco is going to discuss,

01:16:43 ◼   ► I'm sure, could happen and did happen, or it could be IRC, or it could be web forums,

01:16:51 ◼   ► web bulletin boards, AOL chat room news group things, I don't know, there's never an AOL,

01:16:55 ◼   ► whatever those things are called.

01:16:58 ◼   ► The problem is not the medium.

01:17:00 ◼   ► The problem is, and in fact Twitter is probably better than most in the ways that it handles

01:17:04 ◼   ► the social interactions and limiting people and having the asymmetrical follow and everything,

01:17:09 ◼   ► is being tired of life.

01:17:11 ◼   ► And I'm not saying that means he's wrong or anything.

01:17:13 ◼   ► I'm saying that we should put the blame where it lies, which is other people suck, right?

01:17:18 ◼   ► Or whatever.

01:17:19 ◼   ► However you want to deal with it.

01:17:22 ◼   ► How are you current feeling?

01:17:23 ◼   ► I'm going to put it in video game terms.

01:17:26 ◼   ► How are your shields holding up against the current onslaught, right?

01:17:30 ◼   ► Are you feeling weak?

01:17:31 ◼   ► Are you feeling strong?

01:17:32 ◼   ► Do you feel like it's wearing you down and doing something negative?

01:17:34 ◼   ► And disengaging is the way you deal with that.

01:17:36 ◼   ► Like if your shields are going down and you get bombarded from all sides, you go elsewhere.

01:17:41 ◼   ► You pull your ship back, you hide behind a rock and let your ships regen—I don't

01:17:45 ◼   ► know, I'm mixing video game metaphors here, but like—

01:17:47 ◼   ► Well, you treat it like the Halo thing, so you can step back for a minute and you recharge

01:17:51 ◼   ► your things.

01:17:52 ◼   ► Right.

01:17:53 ◼   ► And what I'm getting at is that it's not so much Twitter specifically, it really could

01:17:57 ◼   ► be anything.

01:17:58 ◼   ► It could be blog comments, if you have comments on your blog, and one way to fix that might

01:18:00 ◼   ► be to turn off comments.

01:18:01 ◼   ► It could be people sending you hateful emails.

01:18:03 ◼   ► There are many vectors through which people who have any amount of notoriety can be put

01:18:08 ◼   ► upon by others and it can start to affect them for a variety of reasons.

01:18:13 ◼   ► And I think acknowledging that and dealing with it in a way that were expressed for you

01:18:16 ◼   ► is healthy.

01:18:18 ◼   ► My only point with the tired of life thing is that I don't think it's specific to Twitter

01:18:23 ◼   ► or any one thing, and I don't think shifting your use to like App.net or Usenet or going

01:18:29 ◼   ► back to IRC or whatever, like nothing is going to solve that problem.

01:18:31 ◼   ► It is not a technology problem, it's just a like, a thing that you have to deal with

01:18:36 ◼   ► that goes in cycles that you have to deal with no matter where it is, and you have to

01:18:39 ◼   ► do whatever you need to do to make yourself, you know, be happier essentially.

01:18:44 ◼   ► So I actually agree with most of what you just said. The problem I have with Twitter,

01:18:52 ◼   ► the problem I'm having is partly my fault. It is partly that it is, and I've talked about

01:18:59 ◼   ► it before, like struggles with trying to keep my Twitter usage under control so it's not

01:19:03 ◼   ► just constantly sucking away little bits of time throughout the day and just being this

01:19:08 ◼   ► massive time suck and distraction suck, which hurts my productivity. And when I see my report

01:19:14 ◼   ► from Rescue Time every week and it says I spent X hours in Twitter, I don't feel good

01:19:19 ◼   ► about that. So that's part of the problem. And I've always had that problem. And I've

01:19:24 ◼   ► tried different techniques over the years to try to minimize that, like only using it

01:19:28 ◼   ► on my phone or only using it in a notification center or quitting it during the workday or

01:19:33 ◼   ► whatever, and they've all done slight help here and there,

01:19:38 ◼   ► but they mostly just kind of move the problem around.

01:19:41 ◼   ► They don't really tend to reduce the problem meaningfully.

01:19:44 ◼   ► The problem there is just me,

01:19:45 ◼   ► that I want to keep engaging and interacting with Twitter.

01:19:48 ◼   ► - You're not a Twitter completionist, right?

01:19:50 ◼   ► I keep forgetting. - No.

01:19:51 ◼   ► - Yeah, so you don't have that problem.

01:19:52 ◼   ► If you were, I would say that's one thing

01:19:54 ◼   ► you should definitely stop, 'cause that--

01:19:56 ◼   ► - And another problem that I have

01:19:58 ◼   ► is that I'm not keeping up,

01:19:59 ◼   ► because so much is going on on Twitter,

01:20:02 ◼   ► I'm missing what my friends are saying.

01:20:05 ◼   ► And I recently, a couple weeks ago,

01:20:08 ◼   ► I unfollowed about a third of the people I was following.

01:20:10 ◼   ► Like I went through and tried to call as much as I could.

01:20:13 ◼   ► And I started using mutes here and there,

01:20:15 ◼   ► but that's a little too much work for me,

01:20:17 ◼   ► so I'm not gonna do much of it.

01:20:19 ◼   ► But the problem is that all of my friends,

01:20:24 ◼   ► for the most part, are talking to each other on Twitter.

01:20:28 ◼   ► And if I wanna keep up with what my friends are doing

01:20:31 ◼   ► or talking about or what's going on in the world,

01:20:33 ◼   ► I need to be reading that.

01:20:36 ◼   ► Right now, I'm already not reading most of it

01:20:38 ◼   ► because I'm not a completionist.

01:20:40 ◼   ► I can't keep up, so I'm already not reading it,

01:20:42 ◼   ► but I'm missing all that, and at the same time,

01:20:44 ◼   ► if I want to talk to my friends in that context,

01:20:48 ◼   ► if I want to be part of that conversation, we're in public.

01:20:52 ◼   ► And so what I need, what I'm looking for

01:20:55 ◼   ► is some separation to, you know, in public,

01:20:58 ◼   ► somebody, I forget who,

01:21:00 ◼   ► somebody about a year ago I heard a talk where they were comparing like having a

01:21:04 ◼   ► conversation briefly with your friends on Twitter it's like having a

01:21:08 ◼   ► conversation like on your front porch with somebody and there's tons of people

01:21:12 ◼   ► walking by in the sidewalk and they yell at you like responses that like that you

01:21:15 ◼   ► weren't part of this conversation and they're like yelling butting in like

01:21:19 ◼   ► you're a dick it's like what do you like get off my porch like but that's the

01:21:24 ◼   ► that's one of the strengths of Twitter as well because if it was only happening

01:21:27 ◼   ► in private fewer people would benefit the reason it kind of works the way it

01:21:30 ◼   ► does is that groups of people can sort of organically form who like discussing a particular

01:21:36 ◼   ► topic and like, you're doing it in public, partially because you want some of the public

01:21:41 ◼   ► to see it.

01:21:42 ◼   ► What you don't want is people going by your porch and yelling at you while you're doing

01:21:45 ◼   ► your thing, but you do want, hey, maybe this interested guy who you met once or twice will

01:21:48 ◼   ► hear your conversation and join in kind of like at a party, right?

01:21:51 ◼   ► Like so the public nature of Twitter is both a strength and a weakness.

01:21:54 ◼   ► And how it plays out really depends on how many people are walking by your porch, so

01:21:59 ◼   ► to speak.

01:22:00 ◼   ► agree that that is an important strength of Twitter.

01:22:04 ◼   ► I like that that exists.

01:22:06 ◼   ► I don't like that that is the far and away dominant place

01:22:10 ◼   ► that my friends interact with each other

01:22:14 ◼   ► and that I need to interact with my friends.

01:22:16 ◼   ► Like, we are always in public.

01:22:19 ◼   ► And I think it should be the opposite.

01:22:20 ◼   ► I think we should interact in public sometimes

01:22:23 ◼   ► and most of the time it would be more pleasant

01:22:26 ◼   ► if it was private.

01:22:29 ◼   ► And so there's different ways to do that.

01:22:31 ◼   ► There's chat rooms and stuff, and Slack,

01:22:34 ◼   ► and stuff like that.

01:22:36 ◼   ► I think I'd rather spend more time looking

01:22:39 ◼   ► at stuff like that these days,

01:22:40 ◼   ► because it is so exhausting.

01:22:42 ◼   ► It is like, I was just at a conference,

01:22:46 ◼   ► and being at a conference was great,

01:22:49 ◼   ► but most groups of people on Twitter

01:22:52 ◼   ► are not as nice as the attendees of OOL.

01:22:55 ◼   ► And it's a much bigger crowd on Twitter.

01:22:59 ◼   ► You know, imagine going to a conference

01:23:02 ◼   ► where you have tens of thousands of people all around you

01:23:05 ◼   ► and listening to everything you say

01:23:07 ◼   ► and being ready to butt in.

01:23:09 ◼   ► And so you're gonna get a lot of good stuff out of that.

01:23:11 ◼   ► You're gonna meet a lot of good people,

01:23:12 ◼   ► you're gonna get a lot of good ideas

01:23:14 ◼   ► and good conversations out of that.

01:23:17 ◼   ► But you're also gonna get a lot of jerks,

01:23:19 ◼   ► especially if it's free to enter

01:23:21 ◼   ► and nobody knows your name

01:23:22 ◼   ► and you don't have to show your face.

01:23:24 ◼   ► So it is exhausting after a while to be always partially

01:23:29 ◼   ► or fully in public like that when you're really just trying

01:23:32 ◼   ► to have everyday interactions with mostly just your friends.

01:23:36 ◼   ► And you're welcome, it's like always being at a conference.

01:23:39 ◼   ► So there is value in being at a conference sometimes,

01:23:43 ◼   ► but there is also, there's a certain level,

01:23:46 ◼   ► there's a certain threshold of sanity

01:23:49 ◼   ► where you can't be publicly performing all the time

01:23:54 ◼   ► and have that be mentally healthy, at least I can't.

01:23:57 ◼   ► And so what I'm saying is not that Twitter is bad.

01:24:00 ◼   ► And by the way, and a lot of people rightly point out

01:24:04 ◼   ► in the chat room, like, much of the problem

01:24:06 ◼   ► when people complain about, quote, Twitter,

01:24:08 ◼   ► is they're complaining about the group they're following,

01:24:10 ◼   ► the group they're paying attention to.

01:24:12 ◼   ► I'm aware that social networks are what you make of them

01:24:15 ◼   ► with what you choose to follow.

01:24:16 ◼   ► However, in a network like Twitter,

01:24:18 ◼   ► they are not what you make of them in terms of

01:24:22 ◼   ► who talks to you and what you receive, that is mostly up to the public. I mean, you can

01:24:29 ◼   ► like, you know, try to avoid talking about certain topics, which is stupid, but you can

01:24:34 ◼   ► do stuff like that to try to minimize what you get. But for the most part, once you have

01:24:38 ◼   ► a non-trivially sized audience, you're going to have random jerks talking to you all the

01:24:42 ◼   ► time in a jerky way, and no matter how much good is interspersed throughout that, it's

01:24:49 ◼   ► just really exhausting.

01:24:50 ◼   ► Well, the problem is, is that the cost of entry to affecting somebody else's day is

01:24:57 ◼   ► almost zero, because you can fire off this 140 character or less message to darn near

01:25:04 ◼   ► anyone you want.

01:25:07 ◼   ► And that's free.

01:25:08 ◼   ► And it takes almost no time.

01:25:11 ◼   ► And just like you were saying, John, that's one of the strengths of Twitter is that it's,

01:25:14 ◼   ► You can get messages across quickly and easily, and you can have access to almost anyone on

01:25:21 ◼   ► the planet if you so desire, like celebrities.

01:25:25 ◼   ► And I'm talking about actual celebrities, not us three idiots.

01:25:29 ◼   ► But the problem with that is all of these people also have access to you.

01:25:35 ◼   ► And the thing that I've been struggling with with regard to Twitter is I feel like maybe

01:25:40 ◼   ► I'm just becoming more sensitive.

01:25:42 ◼   ► I thought I'd be coming I'd been becoming less sensitive, but I feel like I'm seeing

01:25:46 ◼   ► more and more negative or not constructive comments coming my way that bother me.

01:25:55 ◼   ► And granted, the easy answer is, well, don't let it bother you, you idiot, but it's hard.

01:26:01 ◼   ► I'm not good at just putting up that wall.

01:26:03 ◼   ► So like, for example, I had put up a post about Apple Pay and about how I thought it

01:26:08 ◼   ► was crummy that when my card had expired, the card didn't update, which I've since found out

01:26:14 ◼   ► it is theoretically capable of doing if the bank handles it right. And it also didn't tell me when

01:26:19 ◼   ► I went to use it to use the Apple Pay version of the credit card that had expired. It just said,

01:26:25 ◼   ► denied. So I wrote a post about that. Well, somebody tweeted, Apple Pay messaging at

01:26:30 ◼   ► Casey lists you're being ridiculous. Keep track of your cards

01:26:33 ◼   ► Sorry that I made an honest mistake

01:26:37 ◼   ► But did you also learn about the fact that your bank if your bank had handled it correctly?

01:26:42 ◼   ► That you that wouldn't have happened. Did you also learn about that on Twitter or from some stranger?

01:26:47 ◼   ► I learned about it from from some friends, but I also eventually heard about it on Twitter

01:26:54 ◼   ► It's the blessing and the curse like you will I mean it with any it's kind of like, you know

01:26:58 ◼   ► follow up, but anything we talk about here, if we were wrong, many people will tell us,

01:27:02 ◼   ► which I like. I like the fact that that's an advantage of having an audience. Some of

01:27:06 ◼   ► the people who tell you what we mean about it, that's the price you pay for having a

01:27:09 ◼   ► bunch of people tell you, like, "solve your problems for it." A lot of people who only

01:27:15 ◼   ► see the upside would love to do that. They're like, "Boy, it must be good to have a popular

01:27:19 ◼   ► tech podcast because you can say, 'Hey, I'm having trouble getting my whozit, working

01:27:22 ◼   ► with my whatever.'" And then a million people will tell you how to get them to work together,

01:27:27 ◼   ► and some percentage of those people will be right.

01:27:29 ◼   ► And you will have your solved problem, right?

01:27:31 ◼   ► But then some percentage of the people will be jerks.

01:27:33 ◼   ► - Like when I had my jumbo frame issue,

01:27:36 ◼   ► I would never have found that problem

01:27:38 ◼   ► if I hadn't asked on Twitter and gotten hundreds

01:27:41 ◼   ► of responses of what it might be,

01:27:43 ◼   ► and like two of them said jumbo frames.

01:27:46 ◼   ► And that ended up being right.

01:27:48 ◼   ► I am so lucky to have such a big audience on Twitter

01:27:51 ◼   ► that I have access to that kind of information.

01:27:54 ◼   ► I'm so lucky that I have a big enough audience

01:27:57 ◼   ► that I can launch products and write blog posts

01:28:00 ◼   ► that get attention.

01:28:01 ◼   ► Like the audience, like I have built in attention

01:28:05 ◼   ► for anything I do now.

01:28:06 ◼   ► That's the problem.

01:28:07 ◼   ► That's why I would feel like a jerk

01:28:09 ◼   ► just walking away from this.

01:28:10 ◼   ► I would feel ungrateful to other people

01:28:14 ◼   ► who have been following me.

01:28:16 ◼   ► And also I would feel like I was throwing away

01:28:18 ◼   ► a giant professional advantage.

01:28:20 ◼   ► So I feel like I can't leave Twitter.

01:28:23 ◼   ► - Yeah.

01:28:24 ◼   ► But that's why I need to find a better balance.

01:28:27 ◼   ► - But yeah, that's a skill, like anything else,

01:28:29 ◼   ► it's a skill you have to develop.

01:28:31 ◼   ► It's like, none of us have experience with this,

01:28:34 ◼   ► but can you imagine running a huge company,

01:28:36 ◼   ► being the CEO of a company with thousands of employees?

01:28:39 ◼   ► That is not usually a natural thing

01:28:42 ◼   ► that most people are used to.

01:28:43 ◼   ► You're used to just dealing with yourself when you're a kid

01:28:45 ◼   ► and you learn to gain responsibility.

01:28:47 ◼   ► But it is, at these extremes of extreme ratios

01:28:51 ◼   ► of you to other people, it's a skill that you have to learn.

01:28:54 ◼   ► There are things you can learn about being a manager

01:28:57 ◼   ► and being a CEO or running a large company

01:28:59 ◼   ► that you just have to figure out, right?

01:29:02 ◼   ► And you have to research them and learn them.

01:29:04 ◼   ► And some people are just not cut out for it.

01:29:06 ◼   ► Some people will never be a good CEO

01:29:08 ◼   ► or a good manager of a lot of people

01:29:09 ◼   ► because it's just not how they work, right?

01:29:10 ◼   ► So if suddenly you get an audience

01:29:13 ◼   ► and you have to deal with notoriety and fame

01:29:15 ◼   ► and a lot of input from other people,

01:29:17 ◼   ► you have to either learn to deal with that

01:29:20 ◼   ► or learn what your limits are.

01:29:21 ◼   ► Learn that I don't wanna be the CEO of a big company

01:29:24 ◼   ► because no matter how good I could possibly get at it,

01:29:26 ◼   ► doing so doesn't make me happy.

01:29:27 ◼   ► How big are you comfortable?

01:29:28 ◼   ► How big, you know, you see a lot with actual celebrities

01:29:30 ◼   ► who get big because of some talent they have.

01:29:34 ◼   ► They're in a hit movie, they're a great singer,

01:29:36 ◼   ► they have a hit song or something.

01:29:38 ◼   ► And very often, the prerequisite is to get that fame,

01:29:42 ◼   ► being very talented, being a good actor,

01:29:44 ◼   ► being in the right place at the right time,

01:29:46 ◼   ► some combination of those things,

01:29:47 ◼   ► are totally unrelated to the ability to deal with the fame

01:29:51 ◼   ► that is going to come with that.

01:29:52 ◼   ► You know, the ones that stick, the ones that stay are like,

01:29:55 ◼   ► yes, they're really talented, and also,

01:29:57 ◼   ► they're able to figure out how to have a successful,

01:30:00 ◼   ► well-balanced life in the face of what must be, you know,

01:30:04 ◼   ► the insane onslaught of like real fame, right?

01:30:08 ◼   ► Other people have the talent, get the notoriety,

01:30:10 ◼   ► and very clearly can't deal with the onslaught of real fame

01:30:13 ◼   ► and have tragic, terrible lives.

01:30:15 ◼   ► We are lucky that in our tiny little dose of notoriety here,

01:30:19 ◼   ► it's unlikely that Marco is going to, you know,

01:30:21 ◼   ► go on a bender and drive his Tesla off a cliff or something.

01:30:24 ◼   ► (laughing)

01:30:27 ◼   ► But I think that's why I think our problem

01:30:29 ◼   ► is more relatable because I think everybody has,

01:30:32 ◼   ► even if it's just like someone said something mean

01:30:34 ◼   ► on your Facebook post, who is like an acquaintance

01:30:37 ◼   ► or someone you knew in high school and that ruins your day,

01:30:40 ◼   ► that's pretty much the level we're talking about here.

01:30:42 ◼   ► It's not like we're getting bombarded

01:30:44 ◼   ► with thousands of people hating us,

01:30:45 ◼   ► but it doesn't take much.

01:30:46 ◼   ► It just takes one person making one mean comment

01:30:49 ◼   ► to make you think like, and are you used to that?

01:30:51 ◼   ► are used to acquaintances or even strangers perhaps

01:30:55 ◼   ► telling you mean things about yourself.

01:30:56 ◼   ► Maybe that's not something that happens in your regular life

01:30:58 ◼   ► but suddenly it happens on the internet

01:30:59 ◼   ► because they have access to you.

01:31:00 ◼   ► And everyone I think,

01:31:01 ◼   ► like this is the complaint we get when we talk about this,

01:31:03 ◼   ► like would you stop talking about your problems of like,

01:31:05 ◼   ► oh you have a lot of Twitter followers.

01:31:06 ◼   ► I think everybody, if you have one Twitter follow,

01:31:08 ◼   ► if you have 10 people who read your Facebook,

01:31:10 ◼   ► everybody has this problem

01:31:11 ◼   ► at pretty much exactly the same scale we do

01:31:13 ◼   ► because what we're talking about here

01:31:15 ◼   ► is handfuls of negative feedback from people.

01:31:21 ◼   ► because we're not that big.

01:31:23 ◼   ► And I think our handful is within an order of magnitude

01:31:26 ◼   ► of your handful, and is really the same type

01:31:29 ◼   ► of scope of prog, and I think everybody

01:31:31 ◼   ► who has any interaction in any social media

01:31:33 ◼   ► or any sort of one-to-many communication medium

01:31:36 ◼   ► that's not just like face-to-face has to deal with this

01:31:39 ◼   ► and has to figure out what are my limits?

01:31:41 ◼   ► How do I feel about this?

01:31:42 ◼   ► Am I gonna grow a thicker skin,

01:31:44 ◼   ► or am I going to pretend I'm growing a thicker skin

01:31:47 ◼   ► when really I'm just internalizing it all

01:31:48 ◼   ► and it'll come to a breaking point,

01:31:50 ◼   ► I'll like snap at my children and I realize I'm snapping at them because someone said

01:31:53 ◼   ► something mean to me on my Facebook post two days ago and I'm still thinking about it,

01:31:58 ◼   ► right?

01:31:59 ◼   ► That I couldn't agree more.

01:32:00 ◼   ► That's exactly how I feel.

01:32:01 ◼   ► That I'm trying to just fabricate a thicker skin, but I don't think I've actually built

01:32:06 ◼   ► a thicker skin yet.

01:32:08 ◼   ► And it's hard.

01:32:09 ◼   ► It's a hard thing to deal with.

01:32:11 ◼   ► It's weird.

01:32:12 ◼   ► And I think an ecstasy said a couple things in the chat that I thought were great.

01:32:16 ◼   ► Some people are a pleasure to interact with.

01:32:18 ◼   ► Others just suck your energy.

01:32:19 ◼   ► And I think that's a really good way of putting it.

01:32:21 ◼   ► That's that I see this comment like, oh, don't be ridiculous.

01:32:24 ◼   ► Keep track of your or you're being ridiculous.

01:32:26 ◼   ► Keep track of your cards.

01:32:27 ◼   ► And that just kind of like sucks the air out of my day a little bit.

01:32:30 ◼   ► Should it?

01:32:31 ◼   ► No, I should be big enough to realize this is some stranger that I'm never going to interact

01:32:35 ◼   ► with.

01:32:36 ◼   ► And that shouldn't bother me.

01:32:38 ◼   ► But it does.

01:32:39 ◼   ► And the thing I'm struggling with, again, coming back to an ecstasy is in his or her

01:32:43 ◼   ► case, I will also say the older I get less tolerance of energy sucking people I become

01:32:47 ◼   ► I put up with a lot more crap at 18 than I do at 48. And I feel like even in the last couple of years

01:32:52 ◼   ► as I've gained some fame, and I can't say notoriety because I was corrected once that it's not notoriety,

01:32:58 ◼   ► it's fame for us because we didn't do bad things. But anyway, as I get more fame, I'm finding that I

01:33:05 ◼   ► have less and less tolerance and time for the that kind of energy suck. And I've noticed kind of

01:33:10 ◼   ► building on what Marco had said, that I'm getting much more aggressive with the block button and,

01:33:19 ◼   ► and, and those sorts of things than I ever have been in the past. And granted, I'm, you know,

01:33:26 ◼   ► just freshly 33. And so it's not that I'm getting too old age, but even as I'm getting older at this

01:33:34 ◼   ► age, I'm finding that I'm less and less tolerant of it. And, and where we started this conversation

01:33:40 ◼   ► is where I'm coming back to now, which is, is it really worth me getting upset over these random

01:33:46 ◼   ► strangers on the internet? And I feel like I'm getting more and more upset over time. And in fact,

01:33:53 ◼   ► at the end of last year in December, and this is a little bit of a corollary for half or so of

01:33:59 ◼   ► December, I kept track every single day of what Twitter was pissed off about, because I felt like

01:34:06 ◼   ► Every day there was some unbelievable travesty that Twitter was all fired up about.

01:34:14 ◼   ► Every single day.

01:34:15 ◼   ► Now that oftentimes it didn't relate to me at all.

01:34:17 ◼   ► But that much negativity man, oh my goodness, eventually it just wears on you.

01:34:22 ◼   ► And the reason I kept track of this because I intended to post a blog post about it.

01:34:28 ◼   ► As it turns out, right around the time that the right I guess was midway through the month,

01:34:34 ◼   ► I want to say maybe it was time, but somebody put up a post that had basically done that

01:34:41 ◼   ► for an entire year.

01:34:42 ◼   ► And so at that point I figured, well, my post wasn't really worth it, but it's just, it's

01:34:48 ◼   ► stunning to me how much negativity I've seen on Twitter.

01:34:53 ◼   ► And like Marco, I'm trying to evaluate where does that fit in my life?

01:34:59 ◼   ► Because I don't want to eliminate it entirely, but I think I'm giving it much more time and

01:35:06 ◼   ► too many thought cycles.

01:35:08 ◼   ► And I need to back it off a bit, but I'm not sure the right way to do it.

01:35:12 ◼   ► And like Marco, I'm a freaking addict, which is not I don't say that with pride.

01:35:16 ◼   ► I wish I was less so.

01:35:19 ◼   ► But it is it is unbelievably thrilling to get responses from people that you respect,

01:35:25 ◼   ► Or even strangers that have good information like the big frames, fat frames, whatever

01:35:29 ◼   ► you call it.

01:35:30 ◼   ► That is the title, man.

01:35:33 ◼   ► Big frames, fat frames.

01:35:36 ◼   ► Fine.

01:35:37 ◼   ► See, now I'm totally derailed myself.

01:35:39 ◼   ► But one way or another, there's good things that come from Twitter, but there's also

01:35:44 ◼   ► so much bad, and I can't figure out, is the bad outweighing the good these days?

01:35:49 ◼   ► For me, anyway.

01:35:50 ◼   ► What Marco is doing, like, he's doing all the logical things that you would think to

01:35:54 ◼   ► Trim your follow this mute people try to cut down and when you do it don't be a completionist like he's going through he's

01:36:01 ◼   ► He's going down the punch list of things you can do to manage this on

01:36:04 ◼   ► Somewhere on the punch list for certain people maybe think your way out of it

01:36:08 ◼   ► Most people that doesn't work like a little bit Casey

01:36:11 ◼   ► It sounds like you're trying to think your way out of it like should I be upset intellectually?

01:36:15 ◼   ► Can I can I rationally think about that?

01:36:17 ◼   ► I shouldn't be bothered by what strangers that like I

01:36:20 ◼   ► Don't know if you can have that conversation with yourself and have it have effect my experience. It is very rare that

01:36:25 ◼   ► people can

01:36:28 ◼   ► Can use reason to change their emotions they feel from input from other people?

01:36:33 ◼   ► But some people can so it's worth at least giving that a try

01:36:36 ◼   ► But you know and curating the follow us

01:36:40 ◼   ► I think is probably the first thing you should do because you said like you know what is Twitter upset about today as Marco pointed

01:36:45 ◼   ► Out Twitter is who you follow like what is Twitter upset about you have no idea what Twitter is upset about Twitter as an

01:36:50 ◼   ► aggregate is probably talking about Justin Bieber. That is not in your headline, right?

01:36:53 ◼   ► You know what I mean? Your Twitter is upset about some Apple thing that nobody knows about, except,

01:36:57 ◼   ► you know, so changing your follow list. And it can be painful because even for all the asymmetry

01:37:02 ◼   ► in Twitter, it can be painful to unfollow people who, you know, you may agree with them. And you

01:37:07 ◼   ► may be, it is part of the reason you would unfollow them. Like, they're outraged about

01:37:11 ◼   ► Issue X. You 100% agree with them about Issue X, and you are also outraged, and that outrage is a

01:37:15 ◼   ► negative feeling. And so you're unfollowing them, not because they're posting things you disagree

01:37:19 ◼   ► with but because they're posting because you agree with and you're like now I too

01:37:22 ◼   ► am outraged you have transferred your outrage to me because we agree on

01:37:26 ◼   ► everything therefore I'm going to unfollow you like you're not unfollowing

01:37:28 ◼   ► people because their opinions are the opposite of yours you're following

01:37:31 ◼   ► people who you agree with but we seem to be angry all the time that's rubbing off

01:37:35 ◼   ► on you you know well and there's also you know to me I feel like there's

01:37:40 ◼   ► there's a big difference with with Twitter and a lot of it comes from from

01:37:46 ◼   ► the blog world too, which is that with Twitter, there's a very, very, you know, it is who

01:37:51 ◼   ► you follow, that's like, you know, what you see in your timeline, but there's still the

01:37:54 ◼   ► big problem with all of the, you know, replies from jerks and everything. And, you know,

01:38:00 ◼   ► a few weeks ago I mentioned how, you know, like I feel more comfortable saying things

01:38:06 ◼   ► in podcasts than I do on my blog, things that might be controversial or that might get people

01:38:12 ◼   ► to call me a jerk or whatever. And the reason why is because in blogs and on Twitter it's

01:38:19 ◼   ► really really easy to get drive-by rash reactions from people. And so when, and this is, you

01:38:26 ◼   ► know, that anger that you see, that you see like bubbling up on Twitter, that's directed

01:38:30 ◼   ► at something, that's a mood. It's this drive-by mood where someone sees a few words or a headline

01:38:38 ◼   ► that they disagree with and they fit it into their narrative with their confirmation bias

01:38:43 ◼   ► of whatever they think those people are like or whatever and they just lash out and yell

01:38:49 ◼   ► immediately. They don't look at context, they don't know the people they're talking to,

01:38:54 ◼   ► it's just this quick, harsh reaction. With podcasts, you don't really get a lot of that

01:39:01 ◼   ► because podcasts are so undiscoverable fundamentally by the format mostly, and I know there's ways

01:39:07 ◼   ► we can improve it, but ultimately the format is just pretty undiscoverable compared to

01:39:13 ◼   ► text, and I think it always will be that way, relatively speaking, you know, with the exception

01:39:18 ◼   ► of minor improvements here and there, but with podcasts, like most people who are hearing

01:39:24 ◼   ► what I'm saying right now are subscribed to this show, who hear it on a regular basis,

01:39:29 ◼   ► who hear the three of us talking for a couple hours every week, and who have probably heard

01:39:35 ◼   ► us for a couple hours every week for a long time. So they, like, you listeners who are

01:39:40 ◼   ► hearing me say this, you know us. Like, the vast majority of you know us on some level.

01:39:46 ◼   ► You know the context. You know the kind of people we are. You know roughly, you know,

01:39:51 ◼   ► the context in which we are saying the things we say, in which we think the things we think.

01:39:56 ◼   ► You know, if we say something that's a little bit off, you'll probably give us the benefit

01:39:59 ◼   ► doubt because you know who we actually are. And so there are, I think there are way fewer

01:40:06 ◼   ► of those drive-by nasty interactions for things you say on podcasts than there are for things

01:40:12 ◼   ► you say on Twitter or on blog posts. And for me, and the result is podcast audiences tend

01:40:19 ◼   ► to be much smaller than popular blogs, popular, you know, tweets, accounts or whatever, YouTube

01:40:26 ◼   ► channels that are a little more accessible to this kind of drive-by-ness. Like, podcast

01:40:30 ◼   ► audiences are way smaller, but I get so much less nastiness per capita in podcasts than

01:40:38 ◼   ► I do from any other audience, by a long shot. And I'll say things on here that are potentially

01:40:44 ◼   ► way riskier to say than I would ever say on my blog, and yet I get almost no crap for

01:40:51 ◼   ► it.

01:40:52 ◼   ► It's just too much work to listen to a podcast. Anyone, if someone starts retweeting your

01:40:55 ◼   ► tweet around you will get all the crazy drive-bys from people who have no idea who you are and

01:40:58 ◼   ► who are angry but it is just so much work. You're like I gotta download a big audio file

01:41:02 ◼   ► and then you gotta listen to audio and they don't know overcast exists so they don't know

01:41:05 ◼   ► podcast lines exist so they don't know they can listen faster and it's like where is the

01:41:09 ◼   ► part where they talked about this? Oh never mind. Whereas anyone can read a tweet in two

01:41:12 ◼   ► seconds and get angry. So. Exactly. It is not, not, and even a blog post like when you

01:41:17 ◼   ► know like when your blog post goes viral like you're on CNBC or whatever like you're just

01:41:22 ◼   ► gonna drive by us for for half a year just because of that one thing right I

01:41:26 ◼   ► mean here's like I would love I would absolutely love if Twitter had a setting

01:41:32 ◼   ► that would not show me mentions from people who didn't follow me for more

01:41:38 ◼   ► than the past week think about that yeah there's a lot Twitter can do for that

01:41:42 ◼   ► but that does actually get into that does actually get into the realm of

01:41:47 ◼   ► features that would only benefit the people who have a larger than normal

01:41:51 ◼   ► a number of followers, but--

01:41:52 ◼   ► - But they already have those features.

01:41:54 ◼   ► Verified accounts have a setting where you can only see

01:41:56 ◼   ► responses from people you follow, right?

01:41:59 ◼   ► And that's too aggressive, yeah,

01:42:01 ◼   ► 'cause then you can't hear from strangers, right?

01:42:03 ◼   ► So that's too extreme, but if you look at the trash

01:42:08 ◼   ► that you get, if you look at the nastiness,

01:42:11 ◼   ► the nasty comments from people on Twitter,

01:42:13 ◼   ► the vast majority of them for me

01:42:15 ◼   ► are from people who don't follow me,

01:42:17 ◼   ► because they saw some retweet somewhere or something,

01:42:20 ◼   ► they're like, "Ahh!" and they lash out and they yell at me.

01:42:22 ◼   ► And they get nastier when they're eggs, I mean, we can talk to the whole thing.

01:42:25 ◼   ► Yeah.

01:42:25 ◼   ► Like, you know, we don't usually get the eggs, but we just get—we get the drive-bys of people

01:42:28 ◼   ► who have established Twitter accounts, and they just talk in their circle, and we talk in our

01:42:31 ◼   ► circle, and our circles don't interact, but some little thing from our circle lands over in their

01:42:35 ◼   ► circle, and they will just come back and yell. But the good thing about them is, for the most part,

01:42:38 ◼   ► you'll never see them again. Like, most of them won't make it their mission in life to make your

01:42:43 ◼   ► life miserable. Like, my one was, they had that video of the woman being cat-called on the street,

01:42:48 ◼   ► and I made one or two tweets about it and they somehow leaked out of our circle because

01:42:53 ◼   ► some right-wing site put up one of my tweets on their page and it was just months.

01:42:59 ◼   ► Months of random, fairly aggressive hate from people who are totally outside circles who

01:43:06 ◼   ► have no idea anything about who I am or that I have a podcast or that I'm just a person.

01:43:15 ◼   ► - That was miserable.

01:43:16 ◼   ► It was like, I think I said, I tweeted about it.

01:43:18 ◼   ► It was like, you know, five millisarkesians worth of hate.

01:43:23 ◼   ► Right?

01:43:24 ◼   ► But it just goes on forever.

01:43:26 ◼   ► Like, and eventually, you know, like, I mean,

01:43:28 ◼   ► I deal with things in a different way probably

01:43:30 ◼   ► than you two do, but like, it was miserable.

01:43:33 ◼   ► And it was like the rainstorm, it doesn't end.

01:43:36 ◼   ► Like, you know, I don't know what your CNBC story,

01:43:41 ◼   ► you know, the Apple functional high ground stuff is going.

01:43:44 ◼   ► I'm assuming you're still getting those,

01:43:46 ◼   ► but I'm hoping they're not as hate filled

01:43:49 ◼   ► as the things I was getting for this thing.

01:43:51 ◼   ► And at the very least, anyone who's gonna be angry

01:43:54 ◼   ► about functional high ground probably cares about Apple.

01:43:57 ◼   ► And so at least they're somewhere in your circle.

01:43:59 ◼   ► In that respect, you may not get rid of them,

01:44:00 ◼   ► but when I was getting the random hate from strangers,

01:44:03 ◼   ► it helped that I knew these people

01:44:06 ◼   ► didn't know anything about me.

01:44:08 ◼   ► It helped that I knew that I was never gonna see

01:44:11 ◼   ► these people on Twitter again.

01:44:13 ◼   ► It helped that it was so outside of the normal things

01:44:16 ◼   ► I tweet about, unlike your functional high ground things,

01:44:18 ◼   ► which is you're just, you are like cultivating the worst

01:44:22 ◼   ► of your actual audience.

01:44:23 ◼   ► Like people who care a lot about Apple

01:44:25 ◼   ► and you're really angry about you

01:44:26 ◼   ► for saying stuff about Apple.

01:44:27 ◼   ► Like, you know, if you say something,

01:44:30 ◼   ► what I'm saying is I was able to deal with it by saying,

01:44:32 ◼   ► by thinking to myself,

01:44:33 ◼   ► I'm never gonna see any of these people tweeting again.

01:44:37 ◼   ► It's probably not even worth my time to block them

01:44:39 ◼   ► because like, if I just simply don't engage with any of them,

01:44:43 ◼   ► They'll get it out of their system.

01:44:44 ◼   ► They don't know who I am, you know,

01:44:46 ◼   ► and it just, and it will blow over

01:44:49 ◼   ► in two to three months, right?

01:44:51 ◼   ► And so, and it did more or less,

01:44:53 ◼   ► I haven't got one of those in a long time.

01:44:55 ◼   ► And that was the way I dealt with that one.

01:44:57 ◼   ► But you know, having to deal with that

01:45:00 ◼   ► for two to three months, like going off Twitter

01:45:02 ◼   ► would be another way to deal with that one.

01:45:04 ◼   ► Like just say, I'm going to come back from Twitter

01:45:05 ◼   ► in two to three months when this is blown over, right?

01:45:08 ◼   ► And you just have to do whatever it takes

01:45:11 ◼   ► for you to feel okay.

01:45:12 ◼   ► and these unfortunate flare ups can happen to anybody.

01:45:15 ◼   ► Like, and again, I would say again, this is not a thing,

01:45:17 ◼   ► oh, poor you, you got too many followers.

01:45:19 ◼   ► Anybody's tweet, not because I had a lot of followers,

01:45:21 ◼   ► anybody's tweet can be pulled out

01:45:23 ◼   ► and put into the right place on like, you know,

01:45:26 ◼   ► some website or forum or bulletin board

01:45:30 ◼   ► that has an organized presence that disagrees

01:45:32 ◼   ► with whatever it is that you are passionate about.

01:45:35 ◼   ► That can happen to anybody, because on the page I was on,

01:45:38 ◼   ► there was 50 other people.

01:45:40 ◼   ► You know, some of those people had 10 followers, right?

01:45:42 ◼   ► they were gonna get the same exact volume of hate mail

01:45:45 ◼   ► that I was gonna get,

01:45:46 ◼   ► because nobody who's sending hate tweets to those people

01:45:49 ◼   ► knows who they are.

01:45:50 ◼   ► They just saw their tweets on a page,

01:45:51 ◼   ► became enraged and funneled that rage

01:45:53 ◼   ► into sending hate in their direction.

01:45:55 ◼   ► It can happen to anybody.

01:45:56 ◼   ► That's the beauty of the internet.

01:45:58 ◼   ► If the Huffington Post grabs your tweet and puts it up

01:46:02 ◼   ► and you could get angry, hate-filled email

01:46:05 ◼   ► from people for months and you could have 10 followers.

01:46:08 ◼   ► That is the beauty and curse of our age, I guess.

01:46:12 ◼   ► And so I really think that everyone will eventually

01:46:15 ◼   ► have to find their way of dealing with the situation

01:46:20 ◼   ► and learning what their limits are.

01:46:22 ◼   ► And I think what Casey was talking about before

01:46:23 ◼   ► of like not lying to yourself about what your limits are,

01:46:26 ◼   ► not thinking because it shouldn't bother me,

01:46:28 ◼   ► therefore I will continue to do the thing

01:46:30 ◼   ► that I know bothers me because I intellectually believe

01:46:33 ◼   ► that it shouldn't bother me.

01:46:34 ◼   ► That's probably not a healthy coping mechanism.

01:46:37 ◼   ► - Yeah, that's what I've been attempting and failing at.

01:46:40 ◼   ► just like Casey's, I've been failing miserably at that

01:46:43 ◼   ► for years now and I think for me the ultimate solution

01:46:48 ◼   ► is going to be reducing how much I use Twitter

01:46:51 ◼   ► because Twitter's not gonna change.

01:46:53 ◼   ► Twitter is, as a medium, that setting I just said,

01:46:56 ◼   ► no client is ever gonna be able to add that really.

01:47:00 ◼   ► They probably aren't even allowed to anymore

01:47:02 ◼   ► with the new Twitter rules of the road.

01:47:04 ◼   ► - Yeah, that would have to be a Twitter service thing

01:47:06 ◼   ► 'cause these are the type of features

01:47:08 ◼   ► that Twitter as a service can do,

01:47:09 ◼   ► and maybe they could think about that,

01:47:12 ◼   ► but the fact that Verified is still this rare thing

01:47:15 ◼   ► that not everybody can get shows they really have no idea

01:47:17 ◼   ► what the hell they're doing in terms of making Twitter

01:47:18 ◼   ► a more pleasant place.

01:47:19 ◼   ► - Exactly, yeah, and it just seems like

01:47:21 ◼   ► the leadership of Twitter has no interest