ATP

00:00:00 ◼   ► We're going live. I'm tired of this.

00:00:02 ◼   ► You got an appointment with the raccoon? Yeah. Got somewhere you gotta be? You gotta be out in the backyard with a 2x4?

00:00:07 ◼   ► That's actually what happened and that actually worked. Since almost hitting the raccoon with a 2x4,

00:00:13 ◼   ► it has not come back. Hitting the raccoon with a 2x4, is that code for something?

00:00:17 ◼   ► Did you really take a 2x4 to a raccoon like it's a friggin baseball bat? Yes. Have you ever played baseball in your life?

00:00:23 ◼   ► I have played. I don't remember whether I've actually gotten a hit.

00:00:27 ◼   ► It was probably more like polo really with the new sport that Marco Nanno's exists. Oh, yeah, that's right

00:00:32 ◼   ► Wait, but that's that's on horses though, right? Yeah, but you're swinging down to a thing on the ground. Were you riding hops?

00:00:37 ◼   ► Someone please draw that

00:00:41 ◼   ► Marco like Don Quixote on top of hops jousting with a 2x4 against a rabid raccoon

00:00:50 ◼   ► In the car the duck hiding guarding its eggs now people think we're crazy who don't follow you on Twitter

00:00:57 ◼   ► I mean, I didn't like go and fetch a two by four. I happen to have a few in the backyard

00:01:02 ◼   ► from Adam's party. We were holding down a big tarp with them. So I had a few very long

00:01:07 ◼   ► two by fours in the backyard and we were standing in the backyard with these two raccoons stalking

00:01:12 ◼   ► the duck that's nesting in our backyard and they'd already gone for it once and the duck

00:01:16 ◼   ► made some crazy noise and scared him off temporarily. But they were just like sitting there maybe

00:01:20 ◼   ► 12 feet away. It wasn't very far and they were just sitting in the tree and we tried

00:01:24 ◼   ► like shining the flashlight on their face, throwing pine cones at them. We hit them a

00:01:29 ◼   ► few times with the pine cones. They didn't give two craps. So eventually I realized,

00:01:33 ◼   ► oh, maybe they don't like water. So I got the hose and sprayed them and made them slightly

00:01:38 ◼   ► damp. I mean, it wasn't even that much pressure because it was a terrible hose. So I basically

00:01:44 ◼   ► gave them a shower. It was like, "Maybe go put some conditioner in their hair." Yeah,

00:01:49 ◼   ► Yeah, I mean it was it was the least intimidating use of a

00:01:52 ◼   ► hose probably in history and and they they kind of seem to

00:01:56 ◼   ► get annoyed by the hose and just kind of like walked away

00:01:59 ◼   ► slowly, but then eventually they came back and that's they

00:02:04 ◼   ► they were within swing distance of this two by four,

00:02:06 ◼   ► which is probably if I had to guess six feet long. So I tried

00:02:10 ◼   ► swinging at it and I missed completely, but the the area

00:02:16 ◼   ► I hit, I like hit it into a tree, and the area that I hit was, I don't know, a couple

00:02:20 ◼   ► of feet from the raccoon. Then they left and they have not come back. That was, and that

00:02:25 ◼   ► was now two or three nights ago.

00:02:28 ◼   ► So can you explain why you think these unborn ducks have a greater right to life than these

00:02:36 ◼   ► raccoons that are hungry?

00:02:39 ◼   ► There's a lot of other food for the raccoons to eat around here. They have no shortage

00:02:42 ◼   ► of food. They have no trouble finding food. It used to be my trash. Now it's all the

00:02:47 ◼   ► neighbors' trash since I got a trash house. And if it wasn't this duck, they would go

00:02:53 ◼   ► eat somebody's garbage and get a sandwich. Like, they are fine with food. So I don't

00:02:59 ◼   ► feel bad about this at all. Also, raccoons are kind of assholes. And ducks, I know that

00:03:04 ◼   ► ducks can be assholes to some people, but ducks have not been assholes to me. Raccoons

00:03:08 ◼   ► have been assholes to me. So I'm sure I have a bias here. I'm sure we're going to hear

00:03:12 ◼   ► from all the raccoon rights activists. I don't know. I don't like raccoons and I have no

00:03:18 ◼   ► reason to dislike ducks. Also, it just seems like kind of a cheap shot. Like the mother

00:03:22 ◼   ► duck is sitting on 11 eggs. She has to sit there for like a month to bake them. That's

00:03:27 ◼   ► like hitting somebody in the back. Like it's a cheap shot to like to try to attack her

00:03:33 ◼   ► like there in that kind of situation. Like have a fair fight somewhere, you know, go

00:03:36 ◼   ► fight an adult duck. Well dwell on that the next time you're eating an omelet. But that

00:03:40 ◼   ► doesn't require murdering a chicken. What we do to the chickens that we get eggs from

00:03:45 ◼   ► is way worse than anything that'll ever happen to that duck.

00:03:47 ◼   ► Well, that is true. That's a fair point. No, I mean, and look,

00:03:51 ◼   ► this is why I'm not like, you know, making a big political stink about my animal policies

00:03:55 ◼   ► here, because I know that whatever opinion I have of the animals in my backyard is completely,

00:04:02 ◼   ► it's completely hypocritical for me to keep having meat and animal products in my life.

00:04:07 ◼   ► I think the motivation for this, in the end, is that the potential cuteness of baby ducks

00:04:13 ◼   ► outweighs everything and everyone wants to see cute baby ducks.

00:04:17 ◼   ► Well, it's also the novelty.

00:04:18 ◼   ► You know, we've seen raccoons around our house since we moved in here almost five years ago.

00:04:23 ◼   ► This is the first time we've had ducks.

00:04:25 ◼   ► And we've never seen baby ducks.

00:04:26 ◼   ► This is the first time we've seen any duck.

00:04:29 ◼   ► And the adult duck is pretty cool looking.

00:04:31 ◼   ► Like we get these awesome pictures of her, you know, because she's a mallard.

00:04:34 ◼   ► She has like the big blue square on her ring and everything.

00:04:36 ◼   ► It's great, around her wing.

00:04:38 ◼   ► So yeah, she looks awesome, great picture opportunities.

00:04:41 ◼   ► Nobody wants a picture of a raccoon at night.

00:04:43 ◼   ► - You know, if this was, I guess,

00:04:44 ◼   ► I'm trying to think of,

00:04:45 ◼   ► Merlin would be able to come up with a reference.

00:04:46 ◼   ► I'm just gonna go with Adventure Time.

00:04:48 ◼   ► This was an episode of Adventure Time.

00:04:49 ◼   ► Those eggs would hatch and tiny alligators

00:04:51 ◼   ► would come out of all of them.

00:04:52 ◼   ► - Never seen it.

00:04:54 ◼   ► - Nope.

00:04:55 ◼   ► - All right, so let's start the show.

00:04:57 ◼   ► (electronic music)

00:04:58 ◼   ► We have some follow-up.

00:04:59 ◼   ► Do we wanna talk about some HFS+?

00:05:05 ◼   ► - That was fast today.

00:05:06 ◼   ► - Yeah, it was fast.

00:05:07 ◼   ► - We had a question about it,

00:05:08 ◼   ► I think we were talking about our Synologies,

00:05:10 ◼   ► and Kane, I think you pronounced his name,

00:05:13 ◼   ► said that aren't you guys concerned

00:05:17 ◼   ► about HFS+ corruption?

00:05:18 ◼   ► Why aren't you concerned about EXT3 or 4 corruption

00:05:21 ◼   ► on your Synologies?

00:05:22 ◼   ► And my understanding is that EXT3, 4

00:05:25 ◼   ► don't have any of the functionality John wants built

00:05:27 ◼   ► into the next OS X file system,

00:05:28 ◼   ► like checksumming, so on and so forth.

00:05:29 ◼   ► I think that is correct, but I'm not sure.

00:05:32 ◼   ► Either way, I'm pretty sure that the Synology

00:05:34 ◼   ► does not have any checksumming.

00:05:35 ◼   ► So why aren't we concerned about corruption

00:05:38 ◼   ► when using HFS+ and Synologies?

00:05:40 ◼   ► I am.

00:05:41 ◼   ► I am concerned about it.

00:05:42 ◼   ► I'm exactly as concerned about it as I am all the time.

00:05:44 ◼   ► I wish my Synology had data integrity.

00:05:46 ◼   ► I wish it ran ZFS.

00:05:47 ◼   ► Why don't you build your own NAS and put ZFS on it?

00:05:51 ◼   ► 'Cause that sounds like a lot of work

00:05:52 ◼   ► and really complicated.

00:05:53 ◼   ► And I should reiterate,

00:05:54 ◼   ► maybe we didn't say this in the last show,

00:05:55 ◼   ► we should reiterate for the people

00:05:56 ◼   ► who haven't listened to the whole series,

00:05:57 ◼   ► our Synologies were given to us by the Synology Corporation.

00:06:00 ◼   ► So these were GIFs.

00:06:04 ◼   ► I probably wouldn't have bought this for myself.

00:06:07 ◼   ► Now that I have it, I think it's great,

00:06:09 ◼   ► but it's the only NAS I've ever owned,

00:06:10 ◼   ► so I can't tell you whether it's better or worse

00:06:12 ◼   ► than any other NAS.

00:06:13 ◼   ► I do know that I really wish to add data integrity.

00:06:15 ◼   ► And if someone made one of these things with ZFS on it,

00:06:18 ◼   ► at this point, having lived with the NAS for a long time,

00:06:21 ◼   ► I think I would probably consider buying it,

00:06:23 ◼   ► but I already have one,

00:06:24 ◼   ► and so I'm just kind of living with the potential crappiness

00:06:26 ◼   ► of what I've got and worrying about it

00:06:28 ◼   ► the same amount I worry about everything else.

00:06:30 ◼   ► I don't know if you guys are worrying about it

00:06:31 ◼   ► or just accepting your fate like so many other people.

00:06:35 ◼   ► - Don't care.

00:06:36 ◼   ► - Nope.

00:06:37 ◼   ► - And we should also mention, like Jon said,

00:06:39 ◼   ► these are all gifts from Synology.

00:06:41 ◼   ► And I was in the same situation as Jon,

00:06:43 ◼   ► never had an ask before.

00:06:44 ◼   ► I freaking love my Synology.

00:06:46 ◼   ► And I've been asked a lot lately, I'm not sure why,

00:06:50 ◼   ► but we were all given DS 1813 pluses.

00:06:55 ◼   ► And I believe the modern version of that box

00:06:58 ◼   ► is the 1815 Plus.

00:07:01 ◼   ► Synology has plenty of other models.

00:07:03 ◼   ► This one is pretty large, both physically

00:07:06 ◼   ► and in terms of disk space, because it takes eight disks.

00:07:10 ◼   ► But they have much smaller versions.

00:07:12 ◼   ► They also have a 214 Play,

00:07:13 ◼   ► which they also sent me one of those,

00:07:16 ◼   ► which is much better for doing things like hosting Plex,

00:07:19 ◼   ► if that's your cup of tea,

00:07:20 ◼   ► because it has the appropriate chips

00:07:22 ◼   ► for hardware transcoding.

00:07:23 ◼   ► But we've been asked a lot lately,

00:07:26 ◼   ► and it's DS1813 is our model, DS1815 is the modern version of it.

00:07:32 ◼   ► Yeah, and I asked, as soon as I got mine, when you were talking to the person who gave

00:07:36 ◼   ► them to us, like, you know, what's the outlook?

00:07:38 ◼   ► Are you guys going to add data integrity features?

00:07:40 ◼   ► And you know, then don't talk about future products, blah, blah, blah.

00:07:44 ◼   ► Like the, they, my request has been heard thus far.

00:07:47 ◼   ► I don't think anything has happened on that front, but I remain hopeful that at some point

00:07:49 ◼   ► in the future, they will come out with a new product or a new software update or something

00:07:53 ◼   ► that adds data integrity features, especially on a NAS.

00:07:55 ◼   ► Like, I don't stress it I/O-wise, I'd be fine for it to spend its time and energy

00:08:01 ◼   ► doing checksumming.

00:08:02 ◼   ► It wouldn't affect my use of it.

00:08:07 ◼   ► And it's not an issue of your request being heard.

00:08:10 ◼   ► We know that your requests have been heard by people at Apple for years about their file

00:08:16 ◼   ► system.

00:08:17 ◼   ► I think Synology is slightly more motivated than Apple, too.

00:08:20 ◼   ► Because this is a common feature of NAS.

00:08:23 ◼   ► a lot of NAS products that are out there are built on ZFS+ or some other checksumming file

00:08:27 ◼   ► system or at least have it as an option.

00:08:28 ◼   ► Like it's a good bullet point, right?

00:08:30 ◼   ► It's in, you know, one of the features that people look for in NAS, this is one of them

00:08:34 ◼   ► and, you know, I think them not adding it is probably just a statement on the state

00:08:39 ◼   ► of like Linux ZFS support or, you know, just how many ties their current software stack

00:08:45 ◼   ► has with their current file system and everything.

00:08:47 ◼   ► But anyway, it could happen.

00:08:48 ◼   ► All right, so do we want to cover a few more things about photos the app on OS 10

00:08:54 ◼   ► Same person more questions about aren't we concerned?

00:08:59 ◼   ► I always want he wants to know what we're concerned about aren't we concerned about the privacy aspects of using cloud sync with Apple's photos that

00:09:05 ◼   ► app

00:09:06 ◼   ► specifically about like

00:09:08 ◼   ► What kind of security do they use to stop Apple employees or the NSA or whatever from viewing photos about your authorization now that they're?

00:09:15 ◼   ► all in the cloud

00:09:16 ◼   ► And my answer this one is similar to the answer about check something like

00:09:19 ◼   ► I don't I don't know what the situation is. I assume the NSA can see all of my pictures

00:09:25 ◼   ► I think it's a safe bet for everybody

00:09:27 ◼   ► I assume that Apple is making a reasonable effort to keep them secure like they do with all their stuff

00:09:34 ◼   ► But in the end you are uploading all of your pictures to a server controlled by a corporation that you have no control over

00:09:42 ◼   ► So I have no idea if they have access to my pictures

00:09:45 ◼   ► I would recommend that if you have pictures that you don't want the world to see

00:09:49 ◼   ► Don't put them into a cloud photosyncing service period

00:09:52 ◼   ► Yeah, that's basically my answer is uh, I don't have any pictures that I would be that it would be a huge problem if

00:10:01 ◼   ► Somebody else saw them

00:10:03 ◼   ► But if you did like the solution is like there's nothing you can do the solution is do not upload them to anybody

00:10:08 ◼   ► Like that's it. That's your own that's your only solution and even that like who knows they could be breaking into your computer and getting

00:10:14 ◼   ► Them whatever but there is no I don't think there's any sort of

00:10:16 ◼   ► Technological guarantee that at this point that a company was well-meaning as they might be could give that would make me think

00:10:24 ◼   ► Oh, I previously didn't want to upload these pictures of my tax returns and social security number to an online photo service

00:10:29 ◼   ► But now that I've heard this promise from this company, I will totally do it

00:10:32 ◼   ► It's just I you know, I won't I just you shouldn't do it. There's nothing in this. It's not their fault

00:10:38 ◼   ► They could be 100% sincere that they are doing everything they can to protect your photos,

00:10:42 ◼   ► but I think history has shown that there are so many things between their promise and you,

00:10:46 ◼   ► namely the internet, that neither one of those parties has control over, that the NSA perhaps

00:10:52 ◼   ► does.

00:10:53 ◼   ► So just don't upload it.

00:10:55 ◼   ► Yep, agreed.

00:10:57 ◼   ► All right, and what about if you were to edit things in photos?

00:11:02 ◼   ► This is from Hampus.

00:11:03 ◼   ► Three questions in a row.

00:11:04 ◼   ► Don't you care about?

00:11:05 ◼   ► Aren't you worried about?

00:11:06 ◼   ► Aren't you concerned about?

00:11:08 ◼   ► we are. This is, well yeah, don't you care about your edits? Like, so we talked about last time

00:11:12 ◼   ► having a bunch of photos and they're all just a bunch of jpegs or raw files or whatever in a

00:11:18 ◼   ► big folder hierarchy, so worst case scenario you could extract all those files from this crazy

00:11:24 ◼   ► bundle thing and just have a bunch of jpegs in folders like that by putting your your photos into

00:11:28 ◼   ► this system, whether it be iPhoto, the new photos application, or anything else, you're not really

00:11:35 ◼   ► losing is because it's very good about preserving the originals and the originals are still there for you to get

00:11:39 ◼   ► You can always pull those originals out and go back there. Just a bunch of folders, right?

00:11:43 ◼   ► But what about your edits at that point?

00:11:45 ◼   ► What if you spent a long time editing your photos adjusting everything or all those edits and adjustments are not in the photos that the

00:11:50 ◼   ► Whole point is it doesn't write them back to the photos. It keeps the edit separate. That's a feature

00:11:53 ◼   ► but

00:11:55 ◼   ► You know if you're if you're saying that you can just pull get rid of all the library and play your phones that you're losing

00:12:00 ◼   ► all your edits. My answer to this is that I rarely edit my photos because I have

00:12:04 ◼   ► no idea how to edit photos. So that solves that problem. Like, I will crop photos,

00:12:09 ◼   ► occasionally I will move some sliders a tiny little bit, but for the most part I

00:12:13 ◼   ► feel like I'm making the photos worse and not better and I just don't I just

00:12:17 ◼   ► don't edit them and so it's not a problem for me. If it's a problem for you

00:12:21 ◼   ► I'm not sure what the solution is because I like the idea of never altering

00:12:25 ◼   ► the originals. Obviously if they're raw like that's part of it. But I don't know

00:12:30 ◼   ► how you would save the edits in a way that is not specific to any one application that

00:12:36 ◼   ► applies the edits.

00:12:37 ◼   ► Yeah, I mean, that's kind of the problem. Like, you know, Adobe and their apps, they

00:12:41 ◼   ► have, as part of the DNG format, they can embed the edits into the DNG files. And so

00:12:48 ◼   ► that's cool, because then you can match between any Adobe program and load up those edits

00:12:52 ◼   ► when they're embedded in the file. And that's kind of what I always wanted for so long,

00:12:55 ◼   ► which is give me one file that has everything in it that I can move around in the file system

00:12:59 ◼   ► and operate on as I need to.

00:13:01 ◼   ► The Apple ecosystem as far as I know has never had that,

00:13:04 ◼   ► but it's a hard problem to solve because what do you do

00:13:08 ◼   ► if, you know, right now they just moved

00:13:10 ◼   ► from iPhoto and Aperture to New Photos app.

00:13:13 ◼   ► iPhoto, Aperture, and the New Photos app

00:13:16 ◼   ► all have different editing controls

00:13:18 ◼   ► with different capabilities that probably many of them

00:13:20 ◼   ► use different algorithms from each other.

00:13:22 ◼   ► So you couldn't even say like, you know,

00:13:24 ◼   ► reduce highlights by 0.2.

00:13:26 ◼   ► You know, if you save that in the file,

00:13:28 ◼   ► then the next version of the program

00:13:30 ◼   ► might interpret that differently,

00:13:32 ◼   ► or a different program 10 years from now

00:13:34 ◼   ► will interpret that differently,

00:13:35 ◼   ► and it might not look the way you want.

00:13:37 ◼   ► So I think the only really sane long-term solution here

00:13:40 ◼   ► is to either not care about your edits,

00:13:43 ◼   ► or for the ones you edit,

00:13:46 ◼   ► when you're gonna move platforms,

00:13:48 ◼   ► you're gonna move editors,

00:13:50 ◼   ► to write the ones that you wanna save as JPEGs,

00:13:54 ◼   ► or be doing that the whole time,

00:13:55 ◼   ► and just maintain separate copies

00:13:57 ◼   ► that have the edits baked in,

00:13:58 ◼   ► if that's really important to you.

00:13:59 ◼   ► It is a very good question.

00:14:01 ◼   ► The problem is I don't think there's a good way to solve it

00:14:05 ◼   ► that will actually last long term

00:14:07 ◼   ► and be cross platform and cross app.

00:14:09 ◼   ► For me, it's very similar to what Jon said,

00:14:11 ◼   ► but just a little bit step further.

00:14:13 ◼   ► I do know how to edit photos a little bit.

00:14:15 ◼   ► And I can make them look better sometimes.

00:14:19 ◼   ► But I don't edit most of the photos I take.

00:14:21 ◼   ► Or if I do, it's like a really basic crop

00:14:23 ◼   ► and maybe a very small adjustment to exposure and stuff.

00:14:25 ◼   ► but not heavy edits that are that important.

00:14:30 ◼   ► As time goes on, I've gotten better at editing.

00:14:34 ◼   ► So if I was gonna go back and pull up an old photo,

00:14:37 ◼   ► I would probably wanna redo my edits to it

00:14:40 ◼   ► with the tools and techniques and abilities

00:14:43 ◼   ► that I have today, rather than when I first did the edit

00:14:47 ◼   ► five years ago when I didn't know about white balance.

00:14:49 ◼   ► You know, stuff like that.

00:14:52 ◼   ► So it is a very valid question to ask

00:14:55 ◼   ► of what do you do with your edits and moving them

00:14:57 ◼   ► to a system, that is a very valid question to ask

00:14:59 ◼   ► for a lot of people, but it sounds like none

00:15:01 ◼   ► of the three of us are the kind of people

00:15:02 ◼   ► who worry that much about that,

00:15:03 ◼   ► and also a great solution I don't think exists.

00:15:07 ◼   ► - Well, you could always burn your edited copies

00:15:09 ◼   ► to a new copy, like burn them to JPEG or something.

00:15:13 ◼   ► - Right, that's what I was saying, yeah,

00:15:14 ◼   ► but I think that's the only solution.

00:15:16 ◼   ► I wouldn't say that's a good solution.

00:15:17 ◼   ► - But do the programs offer that?

00:15:19 ◼   ► I don't even know if the iPhone would even offer

00:15:21 ◼   ► that as an option.

00:15:22 ◼   ► - You could duplicate.

00:15:23 ◼   ► I don't know if it then stores it.

00:15:25 ◼   ► - Yeah, you could duplicate, but I think what it did

00:15:27 ◼   ► was duplicate the original, and now you just have

00:15:29 ◼   ► the same thing, you just have a second file

00:15:31 ◼   ► where you could do a different set of edits,

00:15:32 ◼   ► but it would still try to keep them separate.

00:15:34 ◼   ► - Yeah, I don't know.

00:15:36 ◼   ► This is definitely an advanced user feature

00:15:38 ◼   ► that most people will not need or use or ever care about,

00:15:43 ◼   ► and so therefore Apple's apps probably will cover it

00:15:44 ◼   ► very poorly, and if you really are very concerned

00:15:48 ◼   ► about that kind of stuff, you probably are gonna be

00:15:50 ◼   ► wanting more control over your stuff anyway.

00:15:52 ◼   ► Like my wife, Tiff, she's a pro photographer

00:15:55 ◼   ► and she's very serious even about her personal photography

00:15:58 ◼   ► and so she doesn't use any of these programs.

00:16:00 ◼   ► She uses Adobe Bridge and manages things in the file system

00:16:04 ◼   ► and she is very, very happy with that.

00:16:07 ◼   ► She has no desire to come into one of these

00:16:09 ◼   ► managed syncing library kind of programs.

00:16:11 ◼   ► She tried Aperture, she tried Lightroom, she hated them.

00:16:15 ◼   ► She's the kind of person who her edits are so much work

00:16:19 ◼   ► and so important and she's so good at it

00:16:21 ◼   ► that she wouldn't be able to do the kind of move

00:16:25 ◼   ► where she would just throw away all the edits

00:16:26 ◼   ► she's ever done.

00:16:27 ◼   ► But she does things manually.

00:16:29 ◼   ► So she has all her raw files,

00:16:31 ◼   ► and then when she does heavy edits,

00:16:33 ◼   ► she saves them out as JPEGs.

00:16:35 ◼   ► And so it wouldn't even be a problem for her in her system.

00:16:38 ◼   ► So anyway, I think the answer is if you're pro enough,

00:16:41 ◼   ► or if you're really into it enough to have a lot of edits,

00:16:44 ◼   ► you probably need to come up with your own

00:16:45 ◼   ► long-term solution to this problem.

00:16:48 ◼   ► We also got some feedback from Vincent Jan-Go.

00:16:51 ◼   ► I'm so sorry that I probably butchered that.

00:16:54 ◼   ► But he said that he forgot to tweet this after episode 114,

00:16:58 ◼   ► but Flickr gives a terabyte of storage free

00:17:01 ◼   ► and you can auto sync photos from your phone.

00:17:03 ◼   ► So that is something I don't think we covered

00:17:06 ◼   ► when we were doing the rundown of competing photo services.

00:17:08 ◼   ► So it's probably worth taking note of that.

00:17:11 ◼   ► - Everybody forgets about Flickr.

00:17:13 ◼   ► We forgot about them too.

00:17:14 ◼   ► They still exist.

00:17:15 ◼   ► They give you a terabyte of free storage.

00:17:17 ◼   ► apparently the auto sync photos from your phone. So bad us on forgetting that they still

00:17:21 ◼   ► exist. And it's not bad. The new Flickr, whenever they did their big redesign, it was a pretty

00:17:28 ◼   ► nice update. And one terabyte free is nothing to sneeze at. I know a lot of people use it

00:17:32 ◼   ► and enjoy it. Don't forget it's there.

00:17:35 ◼   ► It's a thing. Still a thing.

00:17:38 ◼   ► Giri Fiala, again, I'm so sorry I'm butchering all your names. When you disable iCloud Photo

00:17:44 ◼   ► library there's a grace period of 30 days. You can't start from scratch within those

00:17:48 ◼   ► 30 days. My library has now 32 days in, 30,000 empty thumbnails, no image can be opened.

00:17:55 ◼   ► I can't re-enable it. It would just merge with this mess."

00:17:59 ◼   ► Yeah, this was a series of two tweets and it's like, "Well, if there's a 30-day grace

00:18:02 ◼   ► period and you're on day 32, shouldn't the grace period be over?" A lot of people told

00:18:06 ◼   ► me about this 30-day grace period. Like, if you turn iCloud Photo Library off, Apple doesn't

00:18:10 ◼   ► just dump all your photos immediately. They say, "Okay, well, I know you turned this thing

00:18:13 ◼   ► off and you don't want to use it anymore, but we'll hang on to the photos that you have

00:18:16 ◼   ► uploaded for 30 days just in case you change your mind, which is a nice safety feature

00:18:20 ◼   ► so you don't like, "Whoops, I turned it off and deleted all my photos and I actually don't

00:18:22 ◼   ► have local copies on and don't have my local copies."

00:18:26 ◼   ► Like I have some copies are only in the cloud and then I turned it off and now they're all

00:18:29 ◼   ► gone, right?

00:18:30 ◼   ► So they're saving it for 30 days, but this makes it all the more difficult it seems like

00:18:33 ◼   ► to do the big reset button of saying, "Look, I'm telling you Apple, I've got them all on

00:18:38 ◼   ► my local machine.

00:18:39 ◼   ► Please clear out your cloud and I want to start over."

00:18:42 ◼   ► And it's probably wise that that isn't easy to do because people don't actually know when

00:18:46 ◼   ► they have all the photos in their computer and if you gave them the ability to do it,

00:18:48 ◼   ► they would do it and then feel sad when they realize they're missing a year's worth of

00:18:51 ◼   ► photos and blah, blah, blah.

00:18:53 ◼   ► But it gets back to the same problem.

00:18:55 ◼   ► How do you restore from backup?

00:18:56 ◼   ► How does it synchronize things?

00:18:58 ◼   ► A lot of people respond to that question as well, showing us screenshots of what happens

00:19:01 ◼   ► when something gets screwed up and you go to a Time Machine backup and restore your

00:19:06 ◼   ► photos library and the new files plop onto your disk and then you launch the app and

00:19:11 ◼   ► How does it reconcile this version on disk

00:19:16 ◼   ► with what's in the cloud?

00:19:17 ◼   ► And apparently it throws up this big repairing photo library

00:19:19 ◼   ► thing, and it basically just goes through there

00:19:20 ◼   ► and reconciles.

00:19:21 ◼   ► And from the reports of people who have sent me pictures

00:19:24 ◼   ► of their libraries doing this, it seems to more or less work

00:19:28 ◼   ► correctly, albeit after waiting for a really long time for it

00:19:31 ◼   ► to go through all your photos, that it'll figure things out

00:19:34 ◼   ► somehow.

00:19:35 ◼   ► I'm still wary about there being something screwed up somewhere,

00:19:38 ◼   ► and I would still like to have some way to reset everything,

00:19:40 ◼   ► it's through nine different dialogue boxes that all make me click on advanced and enter

00:19:45 ◼   ► my admin password and swear oaths that I won't sue Apple after, whatever.

00:19:51 ◼   ► I would like there to be a way and I'm still a little bit worried about it.

00:19:53 ◼   ► I just hope I never have to find out how it behaves in that situation.

00:19:57 ◼   ► And I base this on my experience, which I, you know, right or wrong, because obviously

00:20:00 ◼   ► contacts does not use CloudKit or anything like that.

00:20:03 ◼   ► So it's very different in terms of code base, but contacts is such a small set of data.

00:20:06 ◼   ► I don't have a lot of contacts.

00:20:08 ◼   ► Just doing this with contacts drove me mad and took me hours.

00:20:11 ◼   ► So I really don't want to do it for 60,000 photos over the hell I have.

00:20:16 ◼   ► All right.

00:20:17 ◼   ► We also got with regard to me discussing LaunchD and CRON last episode for tickling a web server

00:20:25 ◼   ► to say that, "Oh, Aaron's Mac has not died," which by the way, it still has not died.

00:20:30 ◼   ► I'm speaking on it right now.

00:20:31 ◼   ► A lot of people suggested Launch Control by Somazone as another app to manage launch D jobs.

00:20:39 ◼   ► I have not tried it. It's not something I'm really that particularly concerned about, but

00:20:43 ◼   ► a lot of people recommended it, so I have to assume it's probably pretty good.

00:20:48 ◼   ► And then our final piece of follow-up is from Enrico Sussatio. Oh man,

00:20:55 ◼   ► why did I jump on this sword tonight? Maybe Sussatio or Sussatio?

00:20:59 ◼   ► Thank you, Marco. See, somebody's saving me. He said Microsoft is working on compiling Swift 2.

00:21:06 ◼   ► This is in regard to Project Islandwood. I did get the chance to watch the video, and for the most

00:21:11 ◼   ► part it's what's been reported. But toward the end, somebody in a question and answer session—imagine

00:21:18 ◼   ► that, a question and answer session in Moscone. Isn't that weird? Anyway. Please file a bug.

00:21:25 ◼   ► Exactly. Somebody asked, "Hey, what are you doing about Swift?"

00:21:28 ◼   ► And I don't recall if this was verbatim or not, but the quote was,

00:21:32 ◼   ► there were two guys that did the presentation, and one of them said,

00:21:35 ◼   ► "What is the plans for adopting Swift into this as well?"

00:21:39 ◼   ► We're going there. It's just a day at a time. This is all

00:21:43 ◼   ► preliminary. We're going to be struggling to get this out in time in the fall with VS update 1, but that's

00:21:50 ◼   ► just as doable. And then the other guy said,

00:21:54 ◼   ► I think what Jim meant to say is we're not making any comment on Swift today.

00:21:58 ◼   ► And this back and forth actually happened between the two of them on a couple of topics, but...

00:22:06 ◼   ► This is why Apple doesn't have Q&A.

00:22:07 ◼   ► Yeah, and to be fair, this is probably why Apple doesn't have Q&A, but...

00:22:12 ◼   ► One of the reasons.

00:22:13 ◼   ► Well, one of the reasons. That and they're secretive, even when they don't need to be.

00:22:16 ◼   ► That and the App Store.

00:22:17 ◼   ► Yeah, that too.

00:22:18 ◼   ► Also, to be fair, have you ever been in a conference session where the Q&A was worth

00:22:23 ◼   ► sitting through as an audience member?

00:22:25 ◼   ► There's always at least one or two good questions.

00:22:27 ◼   ► I wish I could find this video.

00:22:29 ◼   ► I'm going to call on the listeners of ATP

00:22:31 ◼   ► to help me here, or tell me that I'm imagining things

00:22:33 ◼   ► because I'm old.

00:22:34 ◼   ► But I seem to recall in one Q&A session long ago,

00:22:37 ◼   ► when Steve Jobs just came back, some angry person

00:22:39 ◼   ► in the audience-- and they were always angry people

00:22:41 ◼   ► in the audience in the late '90s,

00:22:42 ◼   ► because they were Apple developers in the late '90s,

00:22:45 ◼   ► and how could you not be angry--

00:22:47 ◼   ► held up a Newton and said, what am I

00:22:49 ◼   ► supposed to do with this to Steve Jobs

00:22:51 ◼   ► after he had canceled the Newton program?

00:22:53 ◼   ► And I think Steve Jobs is telling me like,

00:22:55 ◼   ► I'll tell you what you can do with it.

00:22:57 ◼   ► - Well.

00:22:58 ◼   ► - Am I imagining that?

00:22:59 ◼   ► Did that really happen?

00:23:00 ◼   ► If so, is it on video somewhere?

00:23:02 ◼   ► I have VHS tapes of W3C upstairs.

00:23:04 ◼   ► I haven't gone through them all.

00:23:06 ◼   ► I don't know where it is.

00:23:07 ◼   ► I can't find it.

00:23:08 ◼   ► Maybe I imagined it.

00:23:09 ◼   ► Either way, it's a good story.

00:23:10 ◼   ► Whether or not it's true.

00:23:11 ◼   ► - Do you still have a VCR?

00:23:12 ◼   ► - I don't know.

00:23:13 ◼   ► Maybe in the attic.

00:23:14 ◼   ► There's a lot of things in the attic.

00:23:15 ◼   ► - Yeah, I was gonna say, what is not in the attic?

00:23:17 ◼   ► Between you and Steven Hackett,

00:23:19 ◼   ► we could probably load any piece of software

00:23:22 ◼   ► on any Mac that has ever existed ever.

00:23:24 ◼   ► All right, let's talk about something that's awesome.

00:23:28 ◼   ► - Our first sponsor tonight is a new sponsor,

00:23:30 ◼   ► although I believe we all know the people behind it.

00:23:33 ◼   ► It is Glide.

00:23:35 ◼   ► Glide is a beautiful, simple tool

00:23:37 ◼   ► for professional app creation.

00:23:39 ◼   ► Go to createglide.com/atp to see for yourself.

00:23:44 ◼   ► Glide makes it easy to create beautiful apps

00:23:46 ◼   ► that look professional right from the start.

00:23:49 ◼   ► You simply put text, images, and movies into folders,

00:23:51 ◼   ► and Glide will build the app for you.

00:23:54 ◼   ► When you change the content,

00:23:55 ◼   ► the app updates automatically with the new stuff.

00:23:58 ◼   ► This is a remarkable tool for building many common app types,

00:24:00 ◼   ► especially content-focused apps,

00:24:02 ◼   ► things like portfolios, showrooms,

00:24:05 ◼   ► making your own news apps, magazines,

00:24:07 ◼   ► interactive books, kids' books,

00:24:09 ◼   ► mixed media apps for conferences, events,

00:24:11 ◼   ► special interests, filmmakers, musicians,

00:24:13 ◼   ► products, businesses, even schools and universities,

00:24:16 ◼   ► apps for galleries, museums.

00:24:18 ◼   ► They even have iBeacon integration for museum stuff,

00:24:21 ◼   ► pretty cool. So much you can do with Glide. And they're adding more capabilities at a

00:24:25 ◼   ► remarkable pace. So Glide's UK based company, Glide Creations, has been building and using

00:24:30 ◼   ► Glide professionally in their own consulting work for large corporate clients since 2012.

00:24:36 ◼   ► Now three of their clients have even won Best of the App Store awards from Apple. Wonders

00:24:40 ◼   ► of the Universe is a really famous one you've probably heard of. There's also Wonders of

00:24:43 ◼   ► Life, the follow up, and also Jim Dalrymple's The Loop magazine. All of these apps were

00:24:48 ◼   ► were built with Glide, they all won awards from Apple for how good they were. Also, any

00:24:52 ◼   ► of you who went to the OOL conference this year, the OOL conference app was also a Glide

00:24:57 ◼   ► app. That's where I saw the iBeacon integration, which was really cool. I was very impressed

00:25:03 ◼   ► with how great that app was overall. So I blogged about Glide when it was announced.

00:25:07 ◼   ► This was before they approached us for the sponsorship. I liked them that much. And I

00:25:11 ◼   ► honestly think it's going to be a really big deal. The way I think about Glide is I called

00:25:16 ◼   ► the Squarespace equivalent for app creation.

00:25:19 ◼   ► It covers a lot of very common needs and very common tasks

00:25:22 ◼   ► for app building with way less time and money

00:25:25 ◼   ► than writing everything from scratch.

00:25:26 ◼   ► And the results are fantastic.

00:25:29 ◼   ► You don't even need to be a programmer

00:25:30 ◼   ► to make a great app with Glide.

00:25:31 ◼   ► The source files are literally just like a bunch of folders

00:25:34 ◼   ► on Dropbox with text or images or media files in them.

00:25:37 ◼   ► And then when you make changes, the app

00:25:39 ◼   ► is updated live with those changes.

00:25:41 ◼   ► And you can do advanced logic.

00:25:43 ◼   ► There's scripting.

00:25:44 ◼   ► You can do custom behavior that way.

00:25:46 ◼   ► but you don't have to. So it's a very big deal for people who want to focus on the content

00:25:50 ◼   ► of their app, like if you're making a magazine like Jim, and you know, not have to worry

00:25:54 ◼   ► about the code behind it. And of course, keeping up with Apple. And Glide is a huge deal for

00:25:59 ◼   ► app development consultants as well. To me, this is a no-brainer if you're a consultant.

00:26:03 ◼   ► The market for custom coding, you know, this is not going to go away, this isn't going

00:26:06 ◼   ► to kill your job, but there's a massive number of projects that shouldn't be made from scratch

00:26:10 ◼   ► or can't afford to be. So if you're a consultant using Glide, you could offer clients fast,

00:26:15 ◼   ► small budget app creation far more efficiently and productively than before. So that--all

00:26:20 ◼   ► this is what's driving Glide's creators to bring this to Kickstarter and release it to

00:26:24 ◼   ► the public. It's almost done. Their campaign has already succeeded. They--see, Glide--Glide

00:26:30 ◼   ► believes everybody should be able to afford to make their own app and so that's why they

00:26:34 ◼   ► went to Kickstarter to make this happen, basically be like a big capital raise in pre-order to

00:26:38 ◼   ► get them to be able to release this app to the public. So there's only a few more days

00:26:42 ◼   ► left to support or preorder Glide on Kickstarter and be one of the very first people to have

00:26:46 ◼   ► access to it. I mean, to me, if you're a consultant, this is a pretty big competitive advantage

00:26:50 ◼   ► to have a tool like this. So I recommend checking it out. Go to createglide.com/ATP to see more

00:26:58 ◼   ► info or preorder it. Thank you very much to Glide for sponsoring our show.

00:27:02 ◼   ► Yeah, we all are friends with the people that make Glide. And so...

00:27:07 ◼   ► They're also, they're like the nicest people in the world, too.

00:27:09 ◼   ► Oh God, so nice.

00:27:10 ◼   ► But even if we weren't friends with those people,

00:27:14 ◼   ► genuinely, this stuff is amazing.

00:27:16 ◼   ► And Chris Harris, who is, I think, CEO of Glide,

00:27:21 ◼   ► he did a demo with me a long time ago now,

00:27:26 ◼   ► probably a year plus ago, of how Glide works.

00:27:29 ◼   ► And this was via FaceTime when he was in London,

00:27:32 ◼   ► I was in the States.

00:27:34 ◼   ► And just watching things happen in Dropbox

00:27:38 ◼   ► and then the app changing moments thereafter,

00:27:41 ◼   ► it was mind blowing.

00:27:43 ◼   ► So truly, this is amazing stuff,

00:27:45 ◼   ► and if this is at all interesting to you,

00:27:47 ◼   ► I highly suggest checking it out.

00:27:49 ◼   ► It is very, very cool.

00:27:51 ◼   ► - And they even, like they think of so many little details.

00:27:52 ◼   ► I mean, the things I've seen them do,

00:27:54 ◼   ► even like you said, the Dropbox.

00:27:56 ◼   ► So they read the files off Dropbox,

00:27:58 ◼   ► but they don't host them there.

00:27:59 ◼   ► They host them on their own EC2 stuff,

00:28:01 ◼   ► on Amazon Web Services, because they, you know,

00:28:04 ◼   ► they wanna make sure that if Dropbox goes down,

00:28:06 ◼   ► your app doesn't go down.

00:28:08 ◼   ► So they actually copied over to their stuff

00:28:10 ◼   ► after they read it off Dropbox.

00:28:11 ◼   ► So they even thought of that.

00:28:13 ◼   ► So these are great people.

00:28:14 ◼   ► I'm pretty sure I also still owe Chris a beer from Oul.

00:28:16 ◼   ► But yeah, these are great people.

00:28:18 ◼   ► And yeah, seriously check out Glud

00:28:20 ◼   ► and hurry up because you're running out of time.

00:28:22 ◼   ► - All right, so we have a very important

00:28:25 ◼   ► but fairly serious topic.

00:28:28 ◼   ► We have some real time follow up.

00:28:30 ◼   ► And that is that Evan Hindra in the chat

00:28:33 ◼   ► has drawn you on the-- you riding hops trying to stave off the raccoons.

00:28:43 ◼   ► Kind of punted on the face there, though. He just kind of drew a circle and wrote "Marco"

00:28:46 ◼   ► on it. I do appreciate the ATP shirt, though.

00:28:49 ◼   ► Yep. Oh, I didn't even notice that. That's a good

00:28:51 ◼   ► call. He's got the hose, the hose, the pathetic

00:28:54 ◼   ► hose with the little puddle of water. Yep. He's got the duck. He's got the raccoon running

00:28:58 ◼   ► away. Yep. The Apple Watch.

00:28:59 ◼   ► It's pretty good, especially given the time constraints.

00:29:02 ◼   ► Yeah, I'm impressed.

00:29:04 ◼   ► Ditto, very impressed.

00:29:05 ◼   ► All right, so I was being slightly snarky about the seriousness of that, but all kidding

00:29:10 ◼   ► aside, we do really have a serious topic that we should discuss, and we wanted to make sure

00:29:14 ◼   ► we discussed it in the main part of the show this week.

00:29:17 ◼   ► And this all started with a tweet from Jon.

00:29:19 ◼   ► So Jon, you want to kick us off?

00:29:20 ◼   ► Sure, this was last month-ish, end of last month.

00:29:23 ◼   ► I don't remember what motivated this, but you know, no time like the president just

00:29:27 ◼   ► tweet and ask this question.

00:29:30 ◼   ► My tweet read, "Women and girls who listen to ATP, colon.

00:29:34 ◼   ► What do you think we could do to get more women and girls

00:29:36 ◼   ► to listen to ATP?"

00:29:37 ◼   ► Kind of wordy to go women and girls,

00:29:39 ◼   ► but I was trying to be inclusive in this thing.

00:29:40 ◼   ► But I was, anyway.

00:29:42 ◼   ► That's who I'm addressing the question to.

00:29:43 ◼   ► That was the question.

00:29:45 ◼   ► And we'll put the link to the tweet in the show,

00:29:48 ◼   ► and so you can look at all the replies.

00:29:49 ◼   ► There were a lot of replies, a lot of good replies.

00:29:52 ◼   ► I planned to write a blog post about this.

00:29:54 ◼   ► I tried to write a post about this.

00:29:56 ◼   ► I had a lot of difficulty because I thought it would be straightforward, but it ended up being fairly long and kind of boring

00:30:04 ◼   ► So I figure we can make an attempt to talk about it on the show

00:30:06 ◼   ► It'd be nice to have a blog post that people could reference. Maybe I'll still try to make one

00:30:11 ◼   ► But anyway, what I was gonna do in the blog post was explain what I felt like I couldn't explain on Twitter

00:30:16 ◼   ► Which is why if you look at that giant thread, you don't see a lot of replies from me to people

00:30:20 ◼   ► Mostly I was just asked a question and I was getting input, right? So I was reading all the responses, but not really

00:30:26 ◼   ► replying to all of them. Mostly because they didn't feel like it needed to reply to all of them. It's

00:30:29 ◼   ► like I ask the question and people give their opinions and I listen to them, right? But it

00:30:35 ◼   ► does, I think, require some explanation. A lot of people had legitimate questions about it and that's

00:30:40 ◼   ► what I was trying to address in my blog post, so I think I'll probably start with those. The first

00:30:45 ◼   ► thing are like the sort of the premises or the assumptions of all this. The premise of this

00:30:52 ◼   ► question is that I think not a lot of women listen to ATP. And many people will say, "How

00:30:58 ◼   ► do you know that? Do you take surveys of your listeners?" No, we don't. "You're basing it

00:31:02 ◼   ► on t-shirt sales?" Yeah, kind of, but you know, women can buy men's shirts and sometimes we don't

00:31:06 ◼   ► even know what the breakdowns are. We base it on the names of people who send feedback,

00:31:12 ◼   ► the names of people who tweet, the avatars on people's Twitter accounts. Like, we have some

00:31:17 ◼   ► inputs into the system, like we're not taking a completely wild guess, but the

00:31:22 ◼   ► information we have is admittedly imperfect. What if 99.9% of the people

00:31:25 ◼   ► listen are women and they never write because women never like to write it into

00:31:29 ◼   ► the show for some reason, right? But all we get is feedback from men and all

00:31:33 ◼   ► we sell are male details. That would be its own issue worth exploring. It's

00:31:37 ◼   ► conceivable that we could be totally wrong, but I'm going to say that given

00:31:40 ◼   ► the best information available to us, I would put money on the fact that mostly

00:31:44 ◼   ► mostly men listen to ATP. Certainly the majority, perhaps the vast majority. I don't know if

00:31:48 ◼   ► you two agree with that. Do you get that feeling?

00:31:51 ◼   ► Absolutely. No, it's just like what you said. The few inputs that we do have with feedback

00:31:57 ◼   ► and things like that, it certainly does suggest that it's mostly men.

00:32:01 ◼   ► Right. So that's what we're starting from. If we're wrong about that, then this whole

00:32:04 ◼   ► thing is pointless and we're barking up the wrong tree. But I would put money on it that

00:32:08 ◼   ► it's just the vast majority of the people listening to show are men. My second assumption

00:32:12 ◼   ► is that of all the potential people in the world who might enjoy this show, if you say,

00:32:18 ◼   ► just put all those people on the board, those are all the people who potentially might enjoy

00:32:21 ◼   ► this show, what percentage of the men who might enjoy this show are currently listening

00:32:25 ◼   ► to it, and what percentage of the women who might enjoy this show are currently listening

00:32:29 ◼   ► to it?

00:32:30 ◼   ► I think we have a larger proportion of the men who might enjoy the show listening to

00:32:32 ◼   ► it than we do the women.

00:32:33 ◼   ► So if we're going to grow our audience, which I would like to do, and here's what the blog

00:32:37 ◼   ► post is like, suffice it to say that we want people to listen to the show, I don't know

00:32:41 ◼   ► if you need to say that, but like, why are you doing this?

00:32:43 ◼   ► Why do you care?

00:32:44 ◼   ► I, at least personally, want people to listen to the show

00:32:46 ◼   ► because it's gratifying when lots of people,

00:32:48 ◼   ► I don't know if I need to explain this to people,

00:32:50 ◼   ► but it's one of the premises, like listeners equals good.

00:32:53 ◼   ► If you want to grow the audience,

00:32:56 ◼   ► you feel like there is an untapped market of women who,

00:32:59 ◼   ► you know, say we're getting like 1% of the men

00:33:03 ◼   ► who might enjoy the show are listening to it, right?

00:33:06 ◼   ► I think like 0.0001% of the women

00:33:08 ◼   ► who might enjoy the show are listening to it.

00:33:10 ◼   ► So that seems like where we should go.

00:33:13 ◼   ► Like, because if we can get 1% of the men

00:33:14 ◼   ► and 1% of them, that's a big boost,

00:33:15 ◼   ► but maybe, you know, 1% of the men,

00:33:17 ◼   ► 1% of any group is our cap, you know what I mean?

00:33:19 ◼   ► So I feel like that's where we would want to go

00:33:21 ◼   ► to grow the audience first.

00:33:23 ◼   ► And there are other reasons too.

00:33:26 ◼   ► Like, you know, all the other reasons

00:33:28 ◼   ► you hear people talk about,

00:33:28 ◼   ► but what people don't talk about is like,

00:33:30 ◼   ► why, you know, why does diversity matter?

00:33:31 ◼   ► Why do you care how many men are willing to listen

00:33:33 ◼   ► to this show?

00:33:34 ◼   ► Like, there are other really good reasons

00:33:35 ◼   ► that many people will talk to you about,

00:33:37 ◼   ► but I'm appealing to people's sense of like,

00:33:39 ◼   ► just logic, like we want listeners.

00:33:42 ◼   ► If women are not listening to the show

00:33:45 ◼   ► in much greater proportions than men,

00:33:46 ◼   ► even though the women who we think would like the show,

00:33:49 ◼   ► that's bad, that is an untapped market.

00:33:53 ◼   ► We want those people to listen too, right?

00:33:55 ◼   ► That's, you know, ignoring everything else,

00:33:58 ◼   ► which are very important points

00:33:59 ◼   ► about like we should be encouraging women to technology

00:34:01 ◼   ► and because there's a culture of keeping them away

00:34:03 ◼   ► and so on, it's like even just setting that aside

00:34:05 ◼   ► and if you think that is not important or whatever,

00:34:07 ◼   ► just purely by the numbers,

00:34:09 ◼   ► They can appeal to anybody and say, "Look, you know, you're not...

00:34:13 ◼   ► There's an audience out there that we feel like is not listening to the show in much

00:34:17 ◼   ► larger proportions than another audience, and I want to figure out why and change it."

00:34:21 ◼   ► Right?

00:34:22 ◼   ► So that's the premise of this question.

00:34:23 ◼   ► That's why I ask.

00:34:24 ◼   ► And why did I ask the women and girls who do listen to ATP?

00:34:28 ◼   ► Well, I can't ask somebody who doesn't listen to ATP because they don't know what the show

00:34:32 ◼   ► is about.

00:34:33 ◼   ► And the people who do were once women who didn't, and basically they have the experience

00:34:36 ◼   ► to say, "I was once a woman who didn't listen to ATP, and then I listened to it, and now

00:34:40 ◼   ► how did you go from a non-listener to a listener?" And you're listening to it now. What you think

00:34:45 ◼   ► we're doing might be keeping women away from it or making it seem like the show is not

00:34:49 ◼   ► welcoming to them and is not something they might be interested in and so on and so forth.

00:34:53 ◼   ► Or "I did listen, and now I don't, and here's why."

00:34:56 ◼   ► Right, because this was done on Twitter. Like, I mean, you would assume, you know, this...

00:35:00 ◼   ► Basically, I don't have any way to communicate with the women who don't follow me on Twitter

00:35:03 ◼   ► and don't listen to the show or whatever. So I did what I could, right? But I specifically

00:35:07 ◼   ► was addressing them because I wasn't particularly interested in hearing all the things that

00:35:11 ◼   ► men thought we could do to get more women to listen to ADP. Even though they may be

00:35:15 ◼   ► entirely right, I feel like I have the male perspective. Three of us collectively have

00:35:20 ◼   ► the male perspective down pretty well here. I was looking for some, you know, different

00:35:25 ◼   ► input. So that is a very long-winded setup for this question. You guys want to add anything

00:35:31 ◼   ► I didn't consult either of you on this question.

00:35:33 ◼   ► This is on my Twitter account, not the ATP Twitter account.

00:35:36 ◼   ► I just threw this question out there.

00:35:37 ◼   ► I don't know how you guys felt about it

00:35:38 ◼   ► or if it's a thing that you're thinking about

00:35:39 ◼   ► or whether you agree this was a good thing to ask

00:35:41 ◼   ► or have anything to add to my premises here.

00:35:44 ◼   ► - I don't think I have anything to add.

00:35:46 ◼   ► Other than that, I believe Marco and I both

00:35:48 ◼   ► pretty much immediately retweeted it.

00:35:50 ◼   ► And I think one of us retweeted it

00:35:52 ◼   ► from the show account just as quickly.

00:35:54 ◼   ► So I'm pretty sure I speak for Marco

00:35:56 ◼   ► in saying that we are completely behind this line of thought

00:36:00 ◼   ► And I'm very curious to hear what it is we can do

00:36:04 ◼   ► about the women that listen, or don't listen, I should say.

00:36:08 ◼   ► And we definitely had some interesting feedback,

00:36:10 ◼   ► which I suspect we're about to go into.

00:36:12 ◼   ► - Yeah, so before we talk about all the different,

00:36:15 ◼   ► you know, how we feel about them,

00:36:17 ◼   ► let's just go through, we got a lot of responses,

00:36:19 ◼   ► and let's go through some of them categorically.

00:36:22 ◼   ► Frequent suggestions, this is not really ordered

00:36:23 ◼   ► by frequency, but I guess I probably wrote them down

00:36:25 ◼   ► in the order they started coming in.

00:36:27 ◼   ► Have women guests on the show.

00:36:29 ◼   ► have women hosts on the show.

00:36:32 ◼   ► Do a host swap with other women tech podcasts

00:36:35 ◼   ► where, you know, a woman from another tech podcast

00:36:39 ◼   ► goes over here and one of us goes over there.

00:36:40 ◼   ► Talk about women in tech topics,

00:36:42 ◼   ► which we're kind of doing now

00:36:43 ◼   ► and we have kind of done in the past.

00:36:45 ◼   ► Read feedback from identifiably female listeners

00:36:50 ◼   ► on the episodes.

00:36:51 ◼   ► Stay away from male-focused ads that are alienating.

00:36:57 ◼   ► Ask women to try the show.

00:36:58 ◼   ► This was an interesting suggestion that I would not have guessed came.

00:37:02 ◼   ► Someone said, "You're not going to get women to listen to the show unless you ask women

00:37:06 ◼   ► to listen to the show," which sounds stupid, but is totally true.

00:37:10 ◼   ► You have to ask for it.

00:37:11 ◼   ► You have to say, "Hey, are you a woman interested in technology?

00:37:14 ◼   ► We have a podcast you might like."

00:37:15 ◼   ► I actually addressed them specifically.

00:37:18 ◼   ► Lots of mentions of word of mouth, as in how they came to know the show.

00:37:21 ◼   ► I heard from a friend who heard from a friend.

00:37:24 ◼   ► Talk about women who are in technology.

00:37:28 ◼   ► about things they're doing, companies, applications, whatever, conference talks, whatever.

00:37:36 ◼   ► Things that women are actually doing in tech talk about them the same way we talk about

00:37:38 ◼   ► everything else.

00:37:40 ◼   ► Their blogs, link to them on Twitter, blog them, retweet them, follow them on Twitter,

00:37:44 ◼   ► all that stuff.

00:37:45 ◼   ► Sponsor things that are focused on women like AppCamp for Girls, which I think the ATP account

00:37:48 ◼   ► and us have retweeted and posted about it many times, but other similar types of things

00:37:53 ◼   ► that are trying to get more women into technology.

00:37:55 ◼   ► Let's see what else we have here.

00:37:59 ◼   ► One specific piece of feedback was about how she thought that our show, from the outside,

00:38:05 ◼   ► looks like it's just a bunch of dudes talking about tech, which I'm going to say that it

00:38:08 ◼   ► pretty much is.

00:38:09 ◼   ► But anyway, she's saying it's her words, not mine.

00:38:11 ◼   ► You just look like another group of dudes talking about techs, but it's really much

00:38:13 ◼   ► more.

00:38:14 ◼   ► I think they mean the parts where we talk about Marco swatting raccoons in his backyard.

00:38:17 ◼   ► But yeah, the idea is that the optics from the outside is that the show looks like it's

00:38:21 ◼   ► It's a boring show about tech, but we do kind of cover slightly broader topics, maybe?

00:38:26 ◼   ► I don't know.

00:38:27 ◼   ► And that, you know, that getting that image out there, getting that message out there

00:38:30 ◼   ► could make the show more appealing.

00:38:34 ◼   ► And I think that's it for the categories of feedback.

00:38:39 ◼   ► Unless you remember any other particular large categories that you saw going by?

00:38:43 ◼   ► I think you got it.

00:38:44 ◼   ► I mean, I think the biggest one by far is female host/guest, and then I think second

00:38:50 ◼   ► biggest was probably the advertiser thing.

00:38:53 ◼   ► Yeah, and all these suggestions. Another reason I didn't respond to them on Twitter was because,

00:39:01 ◼   ► like this is a trap, you know, it has many names, I like male answer syndrome, but there

00:39:06 ◼   ► are many different names, like it's not an invitation to debate all these things. Like

00:39:11 ◼   ► if you ask a question like this on Twitter, your instinct and my instinct and the instincts

00:39:15 ◼   ► of many people on Twitter, not just men, but everybody who's kind of is to, is to answer

00:39:20 ◼   ► them to say, I think you should do X and then to answer by saying, well, we can't do X because

00:39:26 ◼   ► of this, or we don't want to do X or we shouldn't do X or I disagree that X would help. Like,

00:39:33 ◼   ► and that, believe me, that instinct is strong, right? And that instinct is very strong because

00:39:37 ◼   ► even though I invited the question, every one of these responses is like, well, I have

00:39:41 ◼   ► a reason why, you know, you get defensive, right? And so I fought that instinct, I think

00:39:46 ◼   ► pretty successfully, and did not answer that every single—because basically, what it

00:39:51 ◼   ► comes down to is I think every single one of these responses is right for the person

00:39:54 ◼   ► who answered, right? No one person who answered represents all women, but they represent themselves,

00:39:59 ◼   ► and they give a perspective that we don't have. So I tried to just take them as what

00:40:04 ◼   ► they were. Now, realistically speaking, we are not going to do all of these things. And

00:40:09 ◼   ► In particular, I want to focus on the idea of having women hosts or having women guests.

00:40:15 ◼   ► Hosts is the easiest one.

00:40:17 ◼   ► I think that all the people who said we should have women hosts because it would get more

00:40:20 ◼   ► women to listen are 100% right.

00:40:23 ◼   ► But at a certain point, you're not getting more people to listen to your show, you're

00:40:27 ◼   ► making a new show that is more appealing to women.

00:40:29 ◼   ► And I totally believe that that show would be more appealing to women.

00:40:33 ◼   ► But that doesn't mean I want to change the show that I'm currently on.

00:40:36 ◼   ► I think the women audience is underserved.

00:40:37 ◼   ► I think shows like Rocket, there should be 50 more of those

00:40:41 ◼   ► because this is an underserved audience, right?

00:40:42 ◼   ► There are as many people, there's a million shows

00:40:45 ◼   ► with a bunch of guys talking about tech.

00:40:46 ◼   ► But we are one of those shows.

00:40:48 ◼   ► I like the three of us on the show.

00:40:50 ◼   ► I think this is the show.

00:40:52 ◼   ► I recognize that we are sacrificing

00:40:55 ◼   ► some audience by doing that.

00:40:56 ◼   ► So the people who made that suggestion are not wrong.

00:40:57 ◼   ► But speaking for myself, I don't want to change

00:41:00 ◼   ► the host lineup of the show.

00:41:02 ◼   ► - Yeah, I mean, I'm totally with you on that.

00:41:04 ◼   ► I mean, it is a great suggestion.

00:41:06 ◼   ► that is a big problem that we have three guys here,

00:41:08 ◼   ► but we have never had guest hosts.

00:41:12 ◼   ► We don't have like a regular,

00:41:13 ◼   ► like our format is the three of us talking.

00:41:16 ◼   ► It is not a guest show.

00:41:19 ◼   ► We've occasionally had times,

00:41:21 ◼   ► like where my wife Tiff has popped in during the after show

00:41:23 ◼   ► to talk about games with you guys.

00:41:24 ◼   ► - People married to us do not count as either hosts or guests.

00:41:27 ◼   ► - But like, but that's, you know,

00:41:28 ◼   ► and that's, even that's only like in the after show,

00:41:30 ◼   ► and it's like a fun occasional thing.

00:41:32 ◼   ► It's not like a regular feature of the show.

00:41:34 ◼   ► Like, the show is not regularly having

00:41:36 ◼   ► different people in here.

00:41:38 ◼   ► If it were, and like, I know John Gruber,

00:41:41 ◼   ► for the talk show, got criticized initially,

00:41:44 ◼   ► I don't know, maybe a year ago,

00:41:45 ◼   ► when people started becoming a lot more aware of this issue,

00:41:49 ◼   ► because the talk show is that format show.

00:41:51 ◼   ► It does have guests every week.

00:41:53 ◼   ► And since then, I think he took that to heart,

00:41:57 ◼   ► and if you look at the list of hosts

00:42:00 ◼   ► since about a year ago,

00:42:02 ◼   ► there's a lot more women on that list.

00:42:04 ◼   ► And it's not even yet, but you can see

00:42:06 ◼   ► the progression is going in the right direction.

00:42:09 ◼   ► So I think it does make sense for shows

00:42:12 ◼   ► that have rotating hosts or rotating guests

00:42:16 ◼   ► to really obey that and to really pay attention

00:42:19 ◼   ► to their gender breakdown and their breakdown

00:42:21 ◼   ► in all sorts of diversity categories, honestly.

00:42:23 ◼   ► But for our show, I think we can safely say,

00:42:27 ◼   ► we appreciate that feedback,

00:42:32 ◼   ► but our show has always just been the three of us.

00:42:35 ◼   ► It isn't like we're having different men every week.

00:42:37 ◼   ► We don't have anybody else on the show.

00:42:38 ◼   ► - Yeah, and two things about that.

00:42:40 ◼   ► That feedback is kind of disheartening

00:42:41 ◼   ► because it shows how underserved this market is.

00:42:44 ◼   ► That they're asking, the way they feel like

00:42:47 ◼   ► they can get a show that appeals to them better

00:42:48 ◼   ► is asking for changes in existing shows.

00:42:51 ◼   ► It's just like, it's like all the female gamers out there

00:42:55 ◼   ► begging for female avatars and protagonists in games.

00:42:59 ◼   ► They just want to see themselves represented

00:43:01 ◼   ► And there's not enough out there.

00:43:03 ◼   ► It's an underserved market.

00:43:05 ◼   ► And so they have to take the things they do like

00:43:07 ◼   ► that are currently not catering to their needs

00:43:08 ◼   ► and say, could you change the thing you're doing

00:43:10 ◼   ► to cater to my needs because I'm so massively underserved

00:43:12 ◼   ► that I can't go elsewhere for something better than this?

00:43:14 ◼   ► I feel like there should be more podcasts

00:43:17 ◼   ► with three ladies talking about tech.

00:43:19 ◼   ► But unfortunately there aren't.

00:43:21 ◼   ► And as I said, this feedback is correct.

00:43:23 ◼   ► They are right that this would make our show more appealing,

00:43:25 ◼   ► but I just feel like it would be a different show.

00:43:28 ◼   ► And we're not doing that show, but more people should.

00:43:30 ◼   ► And that's also, you know, like, you know, we don't want to be condescending here and

00:43:34 ◼   ► say, well, women would listen only if there's another woman on the show, because that's

00:43:37 ◼   ► not true.

00:43:38 ◼   ► No, we did, but we did get that feedback a lot.

00:43:39 ◼   ► Like some, some people also said, I like the show the way it is, you don't need to add

00:43:42 ◼   ► any women.

00:43:43 ◼   ► Like these, none of these single women represent all women.

00:43:45 ◼   ► They're just voicing their own opinions.

00:43:46 ◼   ► But that's why I asked, because you want to hear other people's opinions.

00:43:49 ◼   ► And we did get a lot of people who said the show would be more appealing if there was

00:43:51 ◼   ► a woman guest.

00:43:52 ◼   ► We got fewer people who said, I like the lineup exactly the way it is.

00:43:55 ◼   ► There are other things that you can do to make it more appealing.

00:43:57 ◼   ► But I agree that the people who asked for that are correct.

00:44:00 ◼   ► I just feel like it's not a thing we're going to do, which is disappointing for us and disappointing

00:44:04 ◼   ► for them, but that's how that one comes down.

00:44:08 ◼   ► And the second thing on this, you talked about, like, you mentioned diversity in different

00:44:12 ◼   ► aspects.

00:44:13 ◼   ► That's another question that I tried to get in my blog post and it was very difficult

00:44:15 ◼   ► to explain.

00:44:17 ◼   ► Why are you concentrating on women?

00:44:18 ◼   ► Why not, you know, people of color or, you know, different sexual orientations or geographies

00:44:25 ◼   ► or language or any other thing like that?

00:44:28 ◼   ► I think we're terrible in all those categories

00:44:30 ◼   ► in terms of how our breakdown are

00:44:32 ◼   ► and in terms of underserved market.

00:44:33 ◼   ► But here's the thing, women aren't a minority.

00:44:35 ◼   ► They're half the planet.

00:44:37 ◼   ► So again, like deal with the biggest problem first.

00:44:41 ◼   ► Our massive gender disparity,

00:44:44 ◼   ► our massive underrepresentation that we feel

00:44:46 ◼   ► exists based on the data that we have

00:44:49 ◼   ► is not for a minority group, it's for half the planet, right?

00:44:51 ◼   ► So address the biggest problem first

00:44:54 ◼   ► and I feel like this is our biggest problem.

00:44:55 ◼   ► I feel like all those other problems are also there,

00:44:58 ◼   ► But this is the biggest bang for your buck.

00:45:01 ◼   ► This is the worst thing we have going on here.

00:45:04 ◼   ► I think all those other things

00:45:05 ◼   ► we should be definitely aware of.

00:45:07 ◼   ► What are we doing to alienate all those other groups

00:45:08 ◼   ► that are minorities, that are marginalized,

00:45:11 ◼   ► that we should be trying not to do anything

00:45:13 ◼   ► that excludes them, Android users.

00:45:16 ◼   ► Yeah, well, yeah. (laughing)

00:45:17 ◼   ► Anyway, that's not sort of a category, that's a choice.

00:45:21 ◼   ► Anyway, so I mean, that is worth addressing.

00:45:24 ◼   ► That is a real thing, but just like,

00:45:26 ◼   ► The fact that all those things come up in the same conversation is women.

00:45:29 ◼   ► It's like women are not a minority.

00:45:31 ◼   ► I was trying to look at the stat.

00:45:32 ◼   ► I think they're more than half the planet by like a tiny little bit.

00:45:35 ◼   ► But anyway, they are a minority in tech and that's the problem we're sort of trying to

00:45:39 ◼   ► address here.

00:45:40 ◼   ► So, what do we do about sponsors?

00:45:43 ◼   ► Because one of the pieces of feedback that I saw most often, other than you should have

00:45:48 ◼   ► a woman host or you should have women guests, the next bit of feedback that I think was

00:45:54 ◼   ► the next most popular was, well,

00:45:57 ◼   ► you should really try to stay away from advertisers

00:45:59 ◼   ► that are clearly just for men.

00:46:01 ◼   ► And I don't mean the hair coloring, I mean,

00:46:04 ◼   ► designed for men.

00:46:05 ◼   ► - I have used that.

00:46:06 ◼   ► (laughing)

00:46:07 ◼   ► Not proud of it.

00:46:09 ◼   ► Don't use it anymore, but I did use it.

00:46:11 ◼   ► - That's big of you, Marco, I'm very proud of you.

00:46:12 ◼   ► - Not recommended.

00:46:13 ◼   ► - Man, we're getting deep into accidental analog right now.

00:46:17 ◼   ► Mike Hurley's gonna be so upset at us.

00:46:18 ◼   ► But yeah, we did get a lot of feedback of,

00:46:22 ◼   ► you should really have sponsors that are more... is unisex? Unisex is either gender, is that right?

00:46:29 ◼   ► I always get it backwards. I would say gender neutral. Thank you. That's a much better way

00:46:32 ◼   ► of phrasing it. Gender neutral advertisers. And we were, the three of us were talking about this

00:46:37 ◼   ► very briefly via iMessage before the show. And in our recollection at the time, and maybe there's

00:46:44 ◼   ► others that we're not thinking of, the only sponsor that I think we've run, or at least

00:46:48 ◼   ► recently that is clearly not gender-neutral is Harry's, which is shaving stuff. And in

00:46:55 ◼   ► actuality that could very well be used for women for the parts of their bodies that they

00:47:01 ◼   ► shave, but certainly the ad read, if nothing else, is more aimed at men. And maybe it's

00:47:08 ◼   ► as simple as just trying to be more inclusive on the ad reads, which is another thing that

00:47:13 ◼   ► the three of us have talked about recently. So I'm not sure what the right answer is on

00:47:18 ◼   ► And I think Marco, you especially had some thoughts on this

00:47:21 ◼   ► if you wanna kinda take the mic.

00:47:23 ◼   ► - Yeah, I mean, so I think this is a valid point.

00:47:26 ◼   ► You know, the idea that, you know, again,

00:47:30 ◼   ► it's not like women will run away if we do a read

00:47:34 ◼   ► for products that are aimed at men,

00:47:35 ◼   ► but it certainly contributes to an overall feeling of,

00:47:40 ◼   ► you know, maybe this isn't, maybe unwelcomeness,

00:47:43 ◼   ► or like not fitting in, or this isn't meant for you.

00:47:47 ◼   ► Like, I've heard all those things from people

00:47:48 ◼   ► who have sent in this kind of feedback,

00:47:50 ◼   ► and I get that, I understand that.

00:47:52 ◼   ► The reality is, we have very few sponsors

00:47:56 ◼   ► that are gender specific,

00:47:57 ◼   ► and so it wouldn't be a huge deal to stop having them.

00:48:01 ◼   ► And I mean, the only recurring sponsors that we've had,

00:48:07 ◼   ► that I can think of off the top of my head,

00:48:09 ◼   ► are Harry's and Need.

00:48:10 ◼   ► You know, Need even now has Foremost.

00:48:12 ◼   ► They have other businesses that are not just for men.

00:48:16 ◼   ► So really it's Harry's, like that's,

00:48:18 ◼   ► we're really just talking about Harry's.

00:48:21 ◼   ► And as you said, Harry's like,

00:48:22 ◼   ► and I did some research to see like, you know,

00:48:23 ◼   ► how big of a problem is this with Harry's?

00:48:26 ◼   ► And yet, there's no question it's aimed at men,

00:48:29 ◼   ► but you know, they sell razors that are like male-styled

00:48:32 ◼   ► and you know, definitely aimed at men.

00:48:35 ◼   ► But women have used them and have blogged about using them

00:48:38 ◼   ► and you know, they work on women.

00:48:40 ◼   ► There's nothing about a razor that makes it just for a man.

00:48:43 ◼   ► Women can use them too.

00:48:45 ◼   ► So there's marketing choices, there's stylistic choices,

00:48:48 ◼   ► there's language choices.

00:48:50 ◼   ► Anyway, but if it came down to us telling Harry's,

00:48:55 ◼   ► look, we'd love to keep advertising you,

00:48:58 ◼   ► but we wanna keep everything gender neutral now,

00:48:59 ◼   ► so call us back when you have a women's option or something,

00:49:04 ◼   ► or when it's no longer so male-specific.

00:49:08 ◼   ► I'm fine with that.

00:49:09 ◼   ► I think that would be a good idea.

00:49:11 ◼   ► This is an easy one to solve.

00:49:12 ◼   ► This does not require changing the show.

00:49:15 ◼   ► This requires changing two sponsors to basically say,

00:49:19 ◼   ► "Sorry, we're gonna have this new policy now.

00:49:22 ◼   ► "We hope to work with you in the future

00:49:23 ◼   ► "if we can work this out."

00:49:25 ◼   ► So I think that's an easy,

00:49:27 ◼   ► easy little hanging fruit to change that.

00:49:29 ◼   ► I don't care at all.

00:49:30 ◼   ► I don't think the language of the sponsor reads

00:49:32 ◼   ► is itself a major part of the problem.

00:49:35 ◼   ► I've actually edited the reads.

00:49:37 ◼   ► A couple weeks ago, we did a spot for Jack Threads,

00:49:40 ◼   ► which was very male-focused,

00:49:42 ◼   ► and I very heavily edited the read.

00:49:44 ◼   ► and to remove things that were obviously men in a style

00:49:48 ◼   ► that I thought was not appropriate

00:49:51 ◼   ► for a gender neutral show.

00:49:53 ◼   ► So I edited the script, no big deal.

00:49:55 ◼   ► I edit every script I get to be more in our style

00:49:58 ◼   ► or to be easier to read or to say things

00:50:00 ◼   ► that I think should be said and delete things

00:50:01 ◼   ► I think shouldn't be said.

00:50:04 ◼   ► Editing scripts is no big deal,

00:50:06 ◼   ► but I think the script is not the problem.

00:50:09 ◼   ► The product is the problem.

00:50:10 ◼   ► What's being advertised is the problem here

00:50:12 ◼   ► if you're gonna make this argument.

00:50:13 ◼   ► So it doesn't matter how I say it, it matters, you know,

00:50:17 ◼   ► are we advertising products that are clearly aimed

00:50:19 ◼   ► just at men, and what does that suggest

00:50:22 ◼   ► to the women in our audience who are listening?

00:50:25 ◼   ► And so yeah, my argument is, my idea was,

00:50:28 ◼   ► why don't we just drop these handful of sponsors

00:50:29 ◼   ► that do this, you know, it would,

00:50:32 ◼   ► it's never fun to drop a sponsor, like,

00:50:34 ◼   ► I feel bad, it could hurt relationships,

00:50:36 ◼   ► you know, it's inconvenient for them

00:50:37 ◼   ► if they were counting on you,

00:50:38 ◼   ► but I'd be perfectly fine to do this.

00:50:41 ◼   ► Now when this came up on I am I disagreed because I don't think the problem is

00:50:45 ◼   ► Necessarily that there's a line of products that are aimed just at men because they're these are men shaving supplies

00:50:50 ◼   ► First of all, the reality is the most of our audience is men

00:50:53 ◼   ► So this is you know, the advertisers want to have ads targeted at the people they think is listening

00:50:58 ◼   ► But and I thought the problem was basically

00:51:00 ◼   ► Having to do with the reeds because it's okay to have a product

00:51:04 ◼   ► focused on

00:51:07 ◼   ► Just iOS users just just men just women just people in a particular state just people who?

00:51:12 ◼   ► Live a lot of our stuff is just people in the US for example because a lot of people thought these companies as we here

00:51:18 ◼   ► Don't ship overseas right so and we hear about that too right just for people in the US or whatever

00:51:23 ◼   ► but I think the the problem actually is with how the reads can be done because

00:51:28 ◼   ► Just because you have a product for men

00:51:31 ◼   ► Doesn't mean the ad read has to be targeted at men and that sounds crazy like what do you mean of course has to be?

00:51:36 ◼   ► It's a product for men.

00:51:37 ◼   ► An example someone gave me on Twitter is,

00:51:39 ◼   ► what if you were selling some sort of,

00:51:42 ◼   ► whether it be shaving or anything else product,

00:51:44 ◼   ► it was just for women.

00:51:45 ◼   ► A leg shaving razor with a handle

00:51:47 ◼   ► just for shaving women's legs or something.

00:51:50 ◼   ► Like whatever it is, or some kind of product

00:51:52 ◼   ► that only or mostly women use.

00:51:55 ◼   ► If we did that ad read, the inclination would be,

00:51:59 ◼   ► the fairly shameful inclination,

00:52:01 ◼   ► but I imagine it would be to pitch it as in like,

00:52:04 ◼   ► oh, like, buy this for your wife or girlfriend or whatever,

00:52:08 ◼   ► as in, assuming that our audience is mostly men,

00:52:10 ◼   ► which again, we think it is, and just saying,

00:52:13 ◼   ► well, of course only men listen to this Dude Tech podcast,

00:52:15 ◼   ► so let me, if I advertise, if it's a woman's product,

00:52:17 ◼   ► we have to do the ad read differently.

00:52:18 ◼   ► But if it's a men's product, we say,

00:52:19 ◼   ► hey, you will like this, you as in the male thing.

00:52:22 ◼   ► And I think when you do, and as you said,

00:52:24 ◼   ► you've adjusted the language,

00:52:25 ◼   ► when you do an ad read for a woman's product,

00:52:28 ◼   ► you should pitch it as if the person listening

00:52:31 ◼   ► might be a man or a woman.

00:52:32 ◼   ► and is not saying the woman is going to use it for themselves,

00:52:34 ◼   ► buy this for the man in your life.

00:52:36 ◼   ► Maybe try it yourself, but if it's totally focused

00:52:39 ◼   ► to be a man's product, again,

00:52:42 ◼   ► assume all our listeners are 100% women,

00:52:44 ◼   ► how would the ad read be different?

00:52:46 ◼   ► If it would be different, then probably the ad read

00:52:48 ◼   ► is making people feel excluded,

00:52:50 ◼   ► because we're all used to living in a world

00:52:51 ◼   ► where there are certain products aimed just at men

00:52:53 ◼   ► or just at women, right?

00:52:54 ◼   ► We always see ads on television or in the newspapers

00:52:57 ◼   ► or whatever on billboards that are specifically aimed

00:53:00 ◼   ► at men or at women, for whatever reasons

00:53:02 ◼   ► You want to say that these products are culturally mostly for men or mostly for women

00:53:06 ◼   ► None of us feel like we get offended by that unless we listen to or watch the show and every single ad was like you should

00:53:12 ◼   ► Buy this for yourself and it's a woman focused product. I'm like, but I'm not a woman

00:53:15 ◼   ► Why do you keep saying you it's not me?

00:53:17 ◼   ► Like you never you never pitched this product to me as if you could buy this as a gift for a woman that you know

00:53:22 ◼   ► It's always you buy this for yourself and it makes you feel like geez

00:53:25 ◼   ► Maybe I shouldn't be watching this program because all these ads for women's stuff are telling are telling me that I should buy it for

00:53:30 ◼   ► myself but don't they know I'm not a woman it seems like maybe this is not

00:53:32 ◼   ► the place for me so I think the existence of gender-specific products is

00:53:36 ◼   ► perfectly fine especially if they're not an overwhelming majority like if all of

00:53:39 ◼   ► our ads were men only products that's a big problem but if one out of all of our

00:53:42 ◼   ► sponsors all recurring sponsors men only I don't see it as a big deal but I think

00:53:45 ◼   ► the ads that the reads themselves have to be done in a way that's not like hey

00:53:50 ◼   ► you should buy this for yourself because that's excluded that's excluding people

00:53:53 ◼   ► like the existence of the ad is not excluding people I think the way the ad

00:53:57 ◼   ► is pitches excluding people. And I think the fact that our audience is mostly men is the symptom.

00:54:01 ◼   ► Like that's, you know, that is the root problem here. And the symptom is the fact that advertisers

00:54:05 ◼   ► who advertise things for only men want to advertise on our program. If we got our audience

00:54:09 ◼   ► to 50/50, maybe Harry's would be less interesting in advertising with us, and that's fine. But,

00:54:14 ◼   ► like, they're interested now because they think, I think most of our listeners are men, and they're

00:54:18 ◼   ► probably right. And that's the root problem we're trying to solve. I'm not entirely sure getting rid

00:54:21 ◼   ► of that ad would change the gender disparity. I think it just needs to be presented. And my idea

00:54:26 ◼   ► for the past Harry's Read was we should read just like I said, do the Harry's Read as if 100% of our

00:54:31 ◼   ► listeners are women and see if anyone notices. Like see if people get confused and go, "I didn't

00:54:37 ◼   ► understand that ad. Wasn't it for men's products? Why were you advertising it to women?" And we said,

00:54:41 ◼   ► "Oh, we'll just assume 100% of the women people listening to the show are women because, you know,

00:54:45 ◼   ► tech podcast listeners are mostly women." So we didn't get to that before we did the Harry's

00:54:51 ◼   ► Edry before I communicated that idea to Marco, but I thought that would be a fun thing to

00:54:55 ◼   ► do. But that just shows the fact that that's not how it's done. It shows that everyone

00:55:01 ◼   ► is tacitly agreeing that, "Yeah, well, we just assume most of the listeners are women."

00:55:06 ◼   ► And that's the problem. That's the problem we're trying to solve. So I'm not entirely

00:55:09 ◼   ► opposed to judging Harry's, but I think it can be done in a way that is more inclusive

00:55:15 ◼   ► than it is done now.

00:55:17 ◼   ► I agree with most of what you said.

00:55:19 ◼   ► The problem is most of the examples

00:55:22 ◼   ► of the negative things that you used

00:55:24 ◼   ► are things that we don't actually have in our ads,

00:55:26 ◼   ► things that we don't say, things that aren't in our ads,

00:55:29 ◼   ► aren't in our scripts, aren't in our remarks usually even.

00:55:32 ◼   ► - Well, yeah, most of them are pretty neutral,

00:55:34 ◼   ► but we never make the explicit pitch to,

00:55:37 ◼   ► you should buy this for some man that you know,

00:55:40 ◼   ► for your father, for your friend who's a guy,

00:55:43 ◼   ► for your husband, for your boyfriend.

00:55:45 ◼   ► We never make that pitch.

00:55:46 ◼   ► It's never, you know, because that would be explicitly

00:55:49 ◼   ► saying, I am addressing now you,

00:55:52 ◼   ► woman listening to this program.

00:55:53 ◼   ► We never do that.

00:55:54 ◼   ► It's always, you should buy this for yourself, it's great,

00:55:56 ◼   ► it's much better than what you've currently been buying.

00:55:58 ◼   ► It's all about you, you, you, you are a man.

00:56:00 ◼   ► Never the other side.

00:56:01 ◼   ► And so I think that balances off.

00:56:03 ◼   ► Even though you is like generic and not gender specific,

00:56:05 ◼   ► when it's a male-focused product, it makes, you know,

00:56:08 ◼   ► we never go the other way in any degree.

00:56:10 ◼   ► - I could see that, but I mean, to me,

00:56:13 ◼   ► I think the solution there is not to have to address that issue either direction.

00:56:23 ◼   ► Why do we need to advertise products on our show that are only useful to men or only aimed

00:56:28 ◼   ► at men?

00:56:29 ◼   ► - But those products exist.

00:56:31 ◼   ► Would you reject a product that was focused only on women?

00:56:35 ◼   ► There's just some products like that.

00:56:36 ◼   ► And again, who says it's only?

00:56:37 ◼   ► Like, "Oh, we didn't get pantyhose."

00:56:39 ◼   ► Who says men can't wear pantyhose?

00:56:40 ◼   ► They totally can.

00:56:41 ◼   ► culturally speaking, percentage wise, blah blah blah blah blah for the most part, etc.

00:56:45 ◼   ► etc. Lots of caveats, so on and so forth. That's a whole separate culture issue. But

00:56:48 ◼   ► the fact is, there are products that are more often bought by women and more often bought

00:56:52 ◼   ► by men. They're not men only, not women only. They don't want to be excluding from the definitions.

00:56:56 ◼   ► But we all know what we mean about these. You know, if Harry's on their website, it's

00:57:00 ◼   ► men's shaving products. That's what they're going for. I don't think it's crazy to make

00:57:04 ◼   ► a product focused specifically on the needs of either men or women and whatever particular

00:57:08 ◼   ► things they want to do. I think you should have both of those things. It's a shame we

00:57:12 ◼   ► will never be able to get women products for women's things even because if we can't get

00:57:16 ◼   ► more women listening to the show. So that's what we're trying to do. But I think if we

00:57:20 ◼   ► ever got to 50/50 distribution, I would gladly take a quote unquote women only advertiser

00:57:26 ◼   ► any day of the week. And just as much as I think it would take a men only one. If it

00:57:30 ◼   ► takes ditching the men only sponsors to get more women to listen, I'd also be willing

00:57:33 ◼   ► to do that. But I feel like, and some people also reply to this, that like, there's no

00:57:37 ◼   ► No need to ditch the Harry spots, just be more inclusive in the reads, right?

00:57:41 ◼   ► But you just said the problem is when you go to the site, it's all about men.

00:57:44 ◼   ► Right, but it's the reads, the product is for men, but women buy products that are for

00:57:48 ◼   ► men as gifts all the time.

00:57:50 ◼   ► Well, but see, I just pulled up the Harrys read when we started discussing this, and

00:57:54 ◼   ► I pulled up my script that I read when we do these ads, and there's nothing in it that

00:58:00 ◼   ► presupposes that you are a man directly.

00:58:04 ◼   ► The only thing is the absence of something like,

00:58:06 ◼   ► "Oh, get this for a man in your life."

00:58:08 ◼   ► I don't say anything like that,

00:58:10 ◼   ► but I also don't say, "Get this for a woman in your life."

00:58:14 ◼   ► The ad does not specify gender.

00:58:16 ◼   ► It does, I agree, it has the built-in assumption

00:58:20 ◼   ► that this ad I'm reading saying,

00:58:23 ◼   ► "You should go get this, you can do this."

00:58:25 ◼   ► - Yeah, you've been annoyed by buying razors the normal way,

00:58:30 ◼   ► "You should get this because it's better,"

00:58:32 ◼   ► you know what I mean?

00:58:33 ◼   ► I've also been annoyed by buying razors the normal way.

00:58:34 ◼   ► It's like looking at this, this is what I'm saying,

00:58:38 ◼   ► I don't think the script that I actually use

00:58:41 ◼   ► in practice for these kind of ads,

00:58:43 ◼   ► I don't think the script is really the problem.

00:58:45 ◼   ► I think what is being advertised,

00:58:47 ◼   ► if this is gonna be a problem at all,

00:58:48 ◼   ► if you can say we want to avoid advertisers

00:58:52 ◼   ► that might suggest a male focus or a male bias

00:58:55 ◼   ► or male only stuff, I think the issue is

00:58:58 ◼   ► the advertisers themselves because we can edit the scripts

00:59:02 ◼   ► to be neutral, or if they aren't already.

00:59:04 ◼   ► But if a bunch of women go to the Harry's site

00:59:08 ◼   ► and it says these are for men--

00:59:10 ◼   ► - Well, that's why if you said buy this for the man

00:59:12 ◼   ► in your life, you'd be explicit about the fact

00:59:14 ◼   ► that this is a men's product or that's how they frame it.

00:59:16 ◼   ► And women can use it too, but this company's making product

00:59:20 ◼   ► that they're aiming specifically at men.

00:59:22 ◼   ► And it might be a good gift idea,

00:59:23 ◼   ► because if you know someone who has problems

00:59:25 ◼   ► and always complaining about their shaving situation,

00:59:27 ◼   ► you could get this for them.

00:59:28 ◼   ► Trying to be inclusive with the reed

00:59:30 ◼   ► is more than just leaving it neutral,

00:59:33 ◼   ► because neutral plus men's product equals not neutral.

00:59:36 ◼   ► But if you try to go in the other direction

00:59:38 ◼   ► to make sure that people are included in it.

00:59:40 ◼   ► And the same thing with, you know, to balance things out,

00:59:44 ◼   ► if we could get a women-only sponsor, that would be great.

00:59:46 ◼   ► But I don't know if we could do that

00:59:47 ◼   ► with the audience breakdown that we all feel like we have.

00:59:50 ◼   ► - See, I would say that the script editing

00:59:52 ◼   ► is necessary but not sufficient to solve this problem.

00:59:57 ◼   ► - Well, I mean, you know, like, that's possible as well.

01:00:00 ◼   ► I just feel like I would rather add sponsors than remove.

01:00:03 ◼   ► Because Harry's is, the reason we keep doing Harry's reasons

01:00:05 ◼   ► is because it's a good product.

01:00:06 ◼   ► And people don't know this, but we are fairly picky

01:00:09 ◼   ► about the sponsors that we take for the show.

01:00:11 ◼   ► If we don't think it's actually a decent product,

01:00:12 ◼   ► we don't take it.

01:00:13 ◼   ► - But on the other hand, of all the sponsors that we have,

01:00:17 ◼   ► we have, I don't know, maybe 10 regular recurring sponsors

01:00:20 ◼   ► most of the time, I think only one or two

01:00:25 ◼   ► are gender specific.

01:00:26 ◼   ► Like, we're a tech show.

01:00:27 ◼   ► We're not a health and beauty show,

01:00:30 ◼   ► we're not a fashion show, we're a tech show.

01:00:32 ◼   ► And tech, as much as it often isn't,

01:00:35 ◼   ► tech should be gender neutral.

01:00:37 ◼   ► And so most of our sponsors, like Squarespace

01:00:40 ◼   ► and Hover and Fracture, these are all totally

01:00:44 ◼   ► ignoring gender, you know, it's like,

01:00:47 ◼   ► it doesn't matter what gender you are to use Glide.

01:00:49 ◼   ► Like, I think there are enough people out there,

01:00:53 ◼   ► it's a tech show, like most of our sponsors

01:00:55 ◼   ► tech sponsors. You can say it's kind of a fluke that we have sponsors like Harry's and

01:01:00 ◼   ► Warby Parker because we're not a show about shaving our glasses. We have a certain kind

01:01:06 ◼   ► of audience, but it is a lot more focused to run a tech ad on our show than to run an

01:01:12 ◼   ► ad for anything outside of tech because you at least know that we have this many people

01:01:17 ◼   ► who care a lot about tech. I agree with you that in practice, or I mean in theory, the

01:01:23 ◼   ► the gender of ads shouldn't matter,

01:01:24 ◼   ► and it can be attempted to be neutralized,

01:01:27 ◼   ► or at least not always on one side of it.

01:01:30 ◼   ► But we're a tech show, we only have a couple of advertisers

01:01:33 ◼   ► who are gender specific.

01:01:35 ◼   ► We don't necessarily need to maintain that status quo.

01:01:39 ◼   ► - What I'm curious to hear,

01:01:40 ◼   ► and I can't pass judgment on this because I'm not a woman,

01:01:43 ◼   ► and so I don't really know,

01:01:44 ◼   ► but what I'm curious to hear is,

01:01:46 ◼   ► is it better to just quietly not have

01:01:51 ◼   ► male-focused sponsors,

01:01:53 ◼   ► Or is it better, like Jon was saying, to specifically call out,

01:01:57 ◼   ► "This is for the women that are listening.

01:01:59 ◼   ► Get this for the man in your life," or even, "Get this for yourself."

01:02:03 ◼   ► I don't, I feel like maybe it would almost be more inclusive to go,

01:02:09 ◼   ► to bend over backwards and say that this ad, which ostensibly is for men,

01:02:15 ◼   ► we're making it for women because we want to be inclusive.

01:02:19 ◼   ► But I don't know.

01:02:21 ◼   ► I'm not a woman.

01:02:22 ◼   ► I don't know how that feels.

01:02:23 ◼   ► Yeah, like a lot of the things that you do for groups that are marginalized is, you know,

01:02:31 ◼   ► is to try, you're trying to make them feel welcome, right?

01:02:35 ◼   ► And neutral things like Squarespace don't push them away, but also don't make them feel

01:02:41 ◼   ► particularly welcome.

01:02:42 ◼   ► The best case would be ads focused on women, because that would really make them feel,

01:02:46 ◼   ► "This is a product for you.

01:02:47 ◼   ► We were advertising this at you.

01:02:49 ◼   ► This is a thing for you.

01:02:50 ◼   ► We're talking to you now."

01:02:51 ◼   ► Right?

01:02:52 ◼   ► That would be best.

01:02:53 ◼   ► Second best I feel like is if there is an ad that may feel alienating, to try to be

01:03:00 ◼   ► inclusive in that read to say, "Even though it sounds like this is not for you, this show

01:03:04 ◼   ► is still for you, and in fact I'm talking to you as if 100% of the audience is women,

01:03:09 ◼   ► and I'm going to pitch this product for men to you, specifically you the listener, as

01:03:14 ◼   ► a woman."

01:03:15 ◼   ► This is kind of the same thing as using "she" pronouns in all of your pages.

01:03:20 ◼   ► Why is it she all the time?

01:03:22 ◼   ► Well, you're trying to balance the scales

01:03:23 ◼   ► of the massive inequity in the tech world.

01:03:26 ◼   ► Throw a little pronouns in one direction,

01:03:28 ◼   ► there's no reason to complain.

01:03:29 ◼   ► And it's more inclusive because people would say,

01:03:32 ◼   ► oh, I'm used to every single example being a he.

01:03:35 ◼   ► Why don't I, and I'm as guilty as anyone

01:03:37 ◼   ► of constantly using he.

01:03:38 ◼   ► People take note that someone,

01:03:42 ◼   ► something used she in this example.

01:03:44 ◼   ► Isn't that interesting?

01:03:45 ◼   ► I wish that was done all the time that you're trying.

01:03:49 ◼   ► It is such a tiny drop in the bucket against all the other things that have stacked against

01:03:52 ◼   ► them.

01:03:53 ◼   ► The very, literally the very least that you can do is try to make things like that more

01:03:57 ◼   ► equitable.

01:03:58 ◼   ► Dropping the ad entirely would also kind of make it more equitable, but then how do you

01:04:03 ◼   ► call out to them?

01:04:05 ◼   ► I don't know.

01:04:06 ◼   ► Right.

01:04:07 ◼   ► That's what I'm saying.

01:04:08 ◼   ► That's a really good summary of what I was trying to say.

01:04:10 ◼   ► Speaking of advertisers, it's been a while, so we should probably move along with the

01:04:15 ◼   ► advertising part by talking about ads.

01:04:18 ◼   ► - Yeah, and we have more to say on this topic,

01:04:20 ◼   ► but I think we can end the ad part of it.

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01:08:04 ◼   ► All right, so, finishing the general discussion,

01:08:07 ◼   ► well, it's never finished,

01:08:08 ◼   ► but continuing the general discussion for this show,

01:08:11 ◼   ► I think it's worth talking about the content of the show.

01:08:14 ◼   ► So, I asked Tiff, my wife, earlier this evening,

01:08:18 ◼   ► I said we were gonna be talking about this,

01:08:19 ◼   ► and I asked her, like, you know, what does she think,

01:08:21 ◼   ► what can we do to address this problem,

01:08:23 ◼   ► you know, from her point of view?

01:08:25 ◼   ► And what I've heard from a lot of people,

01:08:27 ◼   ► and, you know, Tiff told me this,

01:08:29 ◼   ► and we heard from a lot of people,

01:08:30 ◼   ► and even people in the chat have said this

01:08:33 ◼   ► in the last half hour that we've been talking about this,

01:08:35 ◼   ► what I keep hearing is we have a lot of listeners

01:08:39 ◼   ► who have wives or girlfriends or who are themselves women

01:08:45 ◼   ► who listen for the more human general parts of the show,

01:08:49 ◼   ► but don't like or don't listen

01:08:52 ◼   ► for the in-depth programming stuff.

01:08:55 ◼   ► And this is certainly an issue worth talking about,

01:08:59 ◼   ► because it's not that there are no women programmers,

01:09:03 ◼   ► but as we know, the ratio of the gender breakdown

01:09:07 ◼   ► in engineering jobs is really nowhere near even.

01:09:10 ◼   ► So this is a bigger problem.

01:09:13 ◼   ► I will note that we often get that exact same feedback

01:09:16 ◼   ► from men who are not programmers who listen to the show,

01:09:19 ◼   ► but I would imagine it's proportionally,

01:09:22 ◼   ► we keep hearing this as one of the reasons

01:09:26 ◼   ► why women don't like our show or don't listen

01:09:28 ◼   ► to all of our show or listen to our show consistently.

01:09:31 ◼   ► Do you guys, I mean, to some degree we can say,

01:09:33 ◼   ► like, well, just like we said earlier,

01:09:35 ◼   ► the format of the show is the three of us,

01:09:38 ◼   ► like we don't have guest hosts.

01:09:39 ◼   ► We could look at this topic and we can say,

01:09:42 ◼   ► well, do we just say, like,

01:09:45 ◼   ► well, we are a programming show sometimes,

01:09:47 ◼   ► or is it something that we should change

01:09:49 ◼   ► or something that will just always be this way?

01:09:50 ◼   ► What do you guys think?

01:09:51 ◼   ► - This is explicitly outside the bounds of my goals

01:09:54 ◼   ► because my setup was,

01:09:56 ◼   ► Of all the people in the world who I think would enjoy our show how many of them are not listening to it and our show

01:10:03 ◼   ► Means our show as it exists we could

01:10:06 ◼   ► Appeal to a much broader base if we talked about politics or sports, but that's not the show like anything

01:10:13 ◼   ► You know

01:10:13 ◼   ► There's broad topics and there's narrow topics if we only talked about the details of a specific kind of model train our audience would be

01:10:19 ◼   ► Way smaller. All right

01:10:22 ◼   ► We are doing what we were talking about what we are passionate about. It hasn't necessarily a narrow audience

01:10:27 ◼   ► We can always broaden things up

01:10:29 ◼   ► and get a larger audience and

01:10:32 ◼   ► broaden things up and again

01:10:34 ◼   ► I just picked politics or sport because those are pretty broad topics way more people care about politics and sports than care about any of

01:10:39 ◼   ► The stuff we talk about but this is the show we want to do

01:10:42 ◼   ► I will never give up talking about the minutiae of programming languages and operating systems and and

01:10:48 ◼   ► Api's all that stuff because that's what I want to talk about on the show

01:10:51 ◼   ► My focus is entirely on there are women out there who are interested in the minutia of programming languages and file systems and crap like that

01:10:58 ◼   ► Who aren't listening to the show because of stuff we're doing

01:11:01 ◼   ► To signal to them that the show is not for them and that is entirely where my focus is

01:11:05 ◼   ► I think we do talk about broader topics occasionally a lot of that might be as some of the feedback was pointing out

01:11:11 ◼   ► That it's not clear from the outside that we occasionally talk about touchy-feely things that occasionally it gets a broader top

01:11:18 ◼   ► Maybe it's not clear from the outside that occasionally we talk about programming language for a half an hour

01:11:21 ◼   ► I you know, maybe that would bring in more people as well

01:11:24 ◼   ► but in

01:11:26 ◼   ► General I want this show to be about tech stuff and we were all interested

01:11:30 ◼   ► We all have our own little tech pet peeves and hangouts and things we want to go super into depth with and that's never gonna

01:11:36 ◼   ► Change because that's the show

01:11:38 ◼   ► the only thing I would take away from this is that like

01:11:41 ◼   ► That we should do a somehow do a better job of representing to the outside world

01:11:46 ◼   ► The range of topics that we do talk about because there is a fairly weird

01:11:50 ◼   ► Not gonna say a big range, but it's definitely

01:11:53 ◼   ► You know there it's it's not as narrow as it seems on the outside. I think in some respects

01:11:59 ◼   ► It's more narrow in particular areas, but we do sort of go to these other islands and the different ends of the spectrum

01:12:04 ◼   ► Yeah, I completely agree. I think

01:12:07 ◼   ► We the three of us really love doing this show and it's not that we're opposed to

01:12:16 ◼   ► making tweaks, but I think we're opposed to making tremendous changes. And I think that

01:12:26 ◼   ► having the show be an accident, having the show, yes, we have show notes that we kind

01:12:31 ◼   ► of work off of every week, but we just kind of throw things against the wall and sometimes

01:12:34 ◼   ► they stick and sometimes they don't. And keeping that format is critical in much the same way

01:12:40 ◼   ► as keeping the three of us is critical. And I'm totally good with tweaking here and there,

01:12:49 ◼   ► but to dramatically change the content of the show would be changing the show entirely.

01:12:52 ◼   ► And I think the best part of, best piece of feedback we had about that is related to our

01:12:56 ◼   ► recent revelation that people didn't know the after show existed. Because we would always

01:12:59 ◼   ► put this stuff on the after show to try to maintain the balance, some semblance of like

01:13:03 ◼   ► uniformity of like, well, there's mostly the tech stuff in the beginning. And if we have

01:13:07 ◼   ► something that's less tech related because the show is called Accidental Tech Podcast,

01:13:11 ◼   ► we should save the most non-techy stuff or the time we just want to talk about like cars

01:13:16 ◼   ► or whatever for the after show. But having learned that a lot of people didn't know the

01:13:19 ◼   ► after show even existed, a lot of the feedback we've gotten and what we're doing now is say,

01:13:24 ◼   ► "Don't leave that stuff for the after show because half the people don't even know it's

01:13:27 ◼   ► there." And because it makes it seem like it's not as important, move it to the main

01:13:30 ◼   ► show which we are doing today. And I think in the future, we will be less, maybe we'll

01:13:34 ◼   ► We'll still keep the car stuff there, but you know.

01:13:36 ◼   ► - Nobody likes that except us.

01:13:38 ◼   ► - Because cars, I feel like the cars have a narrower appeal,

01:13:41 ◼   ► but then you've got to be a tech nerd

01:13:42 ◼   ► and be super into cars,

01:13:43 ◼   ► your percentages start going down, right?

01:13:46 ◼   ► But for things that have broader appeal than tech,

01:13:48 ◼   ► like women in tech, I think is a broader topic than HFS+.

01:13:52 ◼   ► That should be in the main show.

01:13:53 ◼   ► I think that is definitely a change we're going to do,

01:13:55 ◼   ► because we were talking about that anyway,

01:13:57 ◼   ► but I at least was under the impression,

01:13:59 ◼   ► like this was a separation in the show,

01:14:01 ◼   ► it was like just dividing things up on your plate, right?

01:14:03 ◼   ► Not like that's the ghetto over there where things go

01:14:07 ◼   ► and we don't really wanna talk about them.

01:14:10 ◼   ► It wasn't a lesser part.

01:14:11 ◼   ► The After Show was not lesser in any way,

01:14:12 ◼   ► but it's lesser if people don't even know it exists.

01:14:14 ◼   ► So we definitely need to move that.

01:14:16 ◼   ► - It's main course versus dessert, really.

01:14:18 ◼   ► Last week we had this on the topic list.

01:14:23 ◼   ► We had other things in front of it

01:14:25 ◼   ► 'cause of news that had happened,

01:14:26 ◼   ► and we could've done it in the After Show

01:14:28 ◼   ► and we chose not to because we wanted to give it

01:14:30 ◼   ► the attention of being a main topic.

01:14:32 ◼   ► That's why it was up first this week as the first main topic.

01:14:36 ◼   ► - Yep, absolutely.

01:14:37 ◼   ► One more thing in the chat room.

01:14:39 ◼   ► Tim in Austin says, he's talking to someone

01:14:43 ◼   ► who is with him there and saying,

01:14:45 ◼   ► "Three men discussing what women like and don't like,

01:14:47 ◼   ► "matter of factly, is very patronizing.

01:14:48 ◼   ► "Women are individuals."

01:14:49 ◼   ► Which I tried to make that point in the beginning,

01:14:51 ◼   ► but maybe he missed that part of the show.

01:14:53 ◼   ► Yes, all this feedback we're getting

01:14:55 ◼   ► is from a bunch of different people.

01:14:56 ◼   ► None of them represents all women.

01:14:58 ◼   ► They just are themselves,

01:14:59 ◼   ► which is why you need a lot of feedback

01:15:00 ◼   ► from a lot of different people.

01:15:02 ◼   ► None of these women speak for all women.

01:15:04 ◼   ► We are trying to address women as a group,

01:15:06 ◼   ► and so I have to discuss them as a group.

01:15:08 ◼   ► But it's, we're, you just have to,

01:15:11 ◼   ► we're talking about them collectively,

01:15:12 ◼   ► but every person is different, every woman is different.

01:15:14 ◼   ► These, that's why I said the individual feedback.

01:15:16 ◼   ► Some women say this, some women say that.

01:15:17 ◼   ► They're individuals, they're not a group,

01:15:18 ◼   ► but we are trying to address them as a group.

01:15:20 ◼   ► So, you know, it's, people may not want to hear

01:15:25 ◼   ► three men talking about what we want,

01:15:26 ◼   ► but what we're trying to do is address them as a group

01:15:28 ◼   ► and say how can we make it so our show is not,

01:15:31 ◼   ► is doing fewer things that make you feel like the show is not for you.

01:15:35 ◼   ► And it's you, the collective, now.

01:15:37 ◼   ► It's not any particular individual.

01:15:39 ◼   ► Because if we wanted to address an individual,

01:15:40 ◼   ► we could just simply ask that individual, what do you specifically want,

01:15:43 ◼   ► and address them and get that one thing.

01:15:44 ◼   ► We are trying to address women as a group.

01:15:47 ◼   ► We're not going to do something that everybody likes and everybody hates.

01:15:50 ◼   ► We're just trying to do the best we can.

01:15:51 ◼   ► You know what I mean?

01:15:52 ◼   ► And that's why we've asked a lot of people and not just one person.

01:15:54 ◼   ► Right.

01:15:55 ◼   ► And this issue is so big and so important and so on everyone's mind

01:16:00 ◼   ► right now, especially, like this has come up so much

01:16:03 ◼   ► this year, and with the whole Gamergate,

01:16:06 ◼   ► horribleness, and this is affecting the entire industry.

01:16:10 ◼   ► It would be irresponsible of us not,

01:16:12 ◼   ► it would be weird if we didn't address this.

01:16:14 ◼   ► It would be weird if we didn't have conversations like,

01:16:17 ◼   ► what can we do to improve this with our show?

01:16:19 ◼   ► Like, this is a full topic.

01:16:22 ◼   ► This is a relevant topic that we have to cover.

01:16:24 ◼   ► - And it actually is tech related,

01:16:25 ◼   ► because the tech industry is the industry

01:16:27 ◼   ► with this massive problem.

01:16:28 ◼   ► It's not just like, you know, it's not,

01:16:31 ◼   ► doctors and lawyers have much better representation

01:16:33 ◼   ► of women than the tech industry.

01:16:34 ◼   ► Like it's a big problem in tech and in gaming

01:16:36 ◼   ► and these things like, so it is totally a tech topic.

01:16:39 ◼   ► Not that it needs to be a tech topic

01:16:40 ◼   ► 'cause we can talk about cars whenever the hell we want,

01:16:42 ◼   ► but this is actually a tech topic.

01:16:44 ◼   ► - And we're gonna keep discussing it.

01:16:46 ◼   ► This is not gonna be the last time you hear

01:16:47 ◼   ► about this topic on our show.

01:16:48 ◼   ► - Yeah, and work on it because like, you know,

01:16:51 ◼   ► during the show when I'm talking, after the show

01:16:53 ◼   ► when I listen to myself to hear all the things I did wrong,

01:16:55 ◼   ► I know, like, you know, I did it 17 times in this show,

01:17:00 ◼   ► referring to people as he by default, right?

01:17:03 ◼   ► Using male-centered pronouns and discussions

01:17:07 ◼   ► from a male perspective like happens all the time.

01:17:09 ◼   ► It is very different, not that I'm saying this as an excuse,

01:17:11 ◼   ► but it's difficult to change, we are working on it.

01:17:13 ◼   ► Like we're trying, like we just need to get way better at it

01:17:16 ◼   ► and constantly hearing feedback from women that tell us

01:17:19 ◼   ► when we're doing it wrong,

01:17:20 ◼   ► like they will tell us things we don't notice ourselves.

01:17:22 ◼   ► Like all the things that I noticed

01:17:23 ◼   ► are things that people have told me.

01:17:24 ◼   ► That's why I noticed that, right?

01:17:25 ◼   ► So that feedback is essential

01:17:27 ◼   ► and that engagement of like asking women to tell us,

01:17:31 ◼   ► again, they're gonna have conflicting opinions.

01:17:33 ◼   ► They don't speak with one voice,

01:17:34 ◼   ► but if you don't ask, you're never gonna know.

01:17:36 ◼   ► Like what was the one that I highlighted

01:17:39 ◼   ► from the ideas about asking women to listen to the show?

01:17:43 ◼   ► Why did that not occur to me?

01:17:44 ◼   ► I don't know.

01:17:45 ◼   ► But like, if you don't explicitly say,

01:17:47 ◼   ► hey, women who love tech stuff, we have a tech podcast,

01:17:50 ◼   ► you might wanna listen to it.

01:17:51 ◼   ► They're not gonna come and you know what I mean?

01:17:52 ◼   ► Like that's called being inviting.

01:17:54 ◼   ► Literally, you are literally inviting them,

01:17:55 ◼   ► specifically them, not just like people,

01:17:57 ◼   ► like, hey, out there, people if you're interested in tech.

01:18:00 ◼   ► People used to say to me that they like the show or whatever

01:18:03 ◼   ► and I would say, that's great,

01:18:05 ◼   ► tell your nerdy friends about the show.

01:18:07 ◼   ► And I would say, tell your nerdy friends

01:18:09 ◼   ► 'cause don't just tell your friends

01:18:11 ◼   ► 'cause your friends probably aren't into

01:18:13 ◼   ► the minutia that we talk about on a tech podcast.

01:18:15 ◼   ► Tell your nerdy friends, right?

01:18:17 ◼   ► At this point, I would modify that to do a specific call out

01:18:21 ◼   ► tell your nerdy friends,

01:18:23 ◼   ► including your nerdy girlfriends, right?

01:18:26 ◼   ► And like, why do you have to call them out specifically?

01:18:28 ◼   ► Because I think most people just hear nerd

01:18:30 ◼   ► and picture a guy, which is wrong,

01:18:32 ◼   ► but like that's the stereotype, right?

01:18:34 ◼   ► So you have to actually make an actual assertive effort

01:18:39 ◼   ► to combat the overwhelming bias

01:18:42 ◼   ► of the entire tech world towards mail.

01:18:44 ◼   ► 'Cause if you do nothing,

01:18:45 ◼   ► it will just default to mail everywhere.

01:18:46 ◼   ► And that's what we're trying to avoid here.

01:18:48 ◼   ► And yeah, it's difficult to do.

01:18:50 ◼   ► We all do it, I know I'm trying not to do it,

01:18:53 ◼   ► every week hopefully we're getting better,

01:18:57 ◼   ► a little bit maybe, but yeah, discussions like this

01:19:00 ◼   ► will hopefully produce some more feedback

01:19:03 ◼   ► and we'll get more ideas and do better things going forward.

01:19:07 ◼   ► - Yeah, I couldn't agree more and I mean,

01:19:12 ◼   ► all of us are trying, all three of us are trying

01:19:14 ◼   ► and I'm sure all three of us have said

01:19:16 ◼   ► some really dumb crap just now,

01:19:18 ◼   ► but it's from a good place for what it's worth

01:19:21 ◼   ► and we're trying to get better.

01:19:22 ◼   ► So if you are a woman--

01:19:24 ◼   ► - Or a girl, 'cause I don't wanna be the ageist.

01:19:26 ◼   ► It's cumbersome, but like I don't have,

01:19:29 ◼   ► you don't wanna, the feedback I've gotten many, many times

01:19:32 ◼   ► is that female is not a great way to refer,

01:19:34 ◼   ► which I've done three times in the show already,

01:19:35 ◼   ► I understand that, but like it's so clinical and just,

01:19:38 ◼   ► but women and girls is who we're talking about.

01:19:40 ◼   ► 'Cause I don't wanna exclude kids from,

01:19:42 ◼   ► I would love the show when I was a kid.

01:19:44 ◼   ► Kids should listen to the show.

01:19:45 ◼   ► Girl kids, boy kids, everybody, and women and men.

01:19:48 ◼   ► It's a show for everybody, really.

01:19:50 ◼   ► As long as you're a nerd.

01:19:51 ◼   ► - If you self identify as someone who is female,

01:19:56 ◼   ► then please, if you have feedback, then let us know.

01:20:01 ◼   ► And if you're a dude, then I'm sure you're going to give us

01:20:04 ◼   ► your feedback anyway, because that's exactly what happened

01:20:06 ◼   ► when Jon asked specifically for women and girls

01:20:09 ◼   ► to give feedback.

01:20:10 ◼   ► - Yeah, I didn't wanna call that out.

01:20:12 ◼   ► I knew it was gonna happen.

01:20:13 ◼   ► I admit being the cynical person that I am.

01:20:17 ◼   ► Part of the reason I got excitement about explicitly tweeting to women and girls, like

01:20:23 ◼   ► the tweet was to them, is that I knew a million guys would answer.

01:20:26 ◼   ► I just said, "It's male answer syndrome.

01:20:28 ◼   ► I have it 100%.

01:20:30 ◼   ► I am a sufferer of this.

01:20:31 ◼   ► I'm not just a client.

01:20:32 ◼   ► I'm the president, okay?"

01:20:33 ◼   ► I think we all are.

01:20:35 ◼   ► And sure enough, you can go through the thread and try to count up.

01:20:38 ◼   ► Did more men than women—I mean, granted, I probably have more male followers than women.

01:20:42 ◼   ► I looked at my follower ratio with one of those tools

01:20:44 ◼   ► that tries to figure out if you're a man or woman.

01:20:46 ◼   ► It's just massively unbalanced.

01:20:48 ◼   ► I'm doing terrible at this.

01:20:50 ◼   ► I've been trying to adjust my follow count, by the way,

01:20:51 ◼   ► for the people who I follow.

01:20:52 ◼   ► I've been unfollowing men and following women

01:20:54 ◼   ► to try to get it even close.

01:20:55 ◼   ► I'm not even close to parody, but anyway,

01:20:58 ◼   ► tons of men answered this question.

01:21:00 ◼   ► And I'm not gonna shame them for answering

01:21:03 ◼   ► 'cause I understand why they did it.

01:21:04 ◼   ► And their input is just as useful as anyone else's.

01:21:09 ◼   ► I just have to understand their input

01:21:10 ◼   ► is coming from a male perspective.

01:21:11 ◼   ► if you want a female perspective,

01:21:13 ◼   ► which is what I was asking for.

01:21:14 ◼   ► Look, they could be saying the exact same things

01:21:17 ◼   ► that the women are saying, and it's also a good idea, right?

01:21:19 ◼   ► But people jump on that bearing of like,

01:21:24 ◼   ► I didn't ask you men to like, bottom line on Twitter,

01:21:27 ◼   ► if I addressed a question to only people

01:21:29 ◼   ► who have a PlayStation 4,

01:21:30 ◼   ► a thousand Xbox owners would answer me.

01:21:32 ◼   ► That has nothing to do with gender.

01:21:33 ◼   ► People just want to say what they want to say.

01:21:34 ◼   ► Like, it really doesn't, you know?

01:21:37 ◼   ► But male answer syndrome is a thing,

01:21:39 ◼   ► and I don't want to shame any of the men who answered.

01:21:42 ◼   ► That's why I didn't reply to any of them

01:21:43 ◼   ► and telling them I didn't ask you,

01:21:45 ◼   ► I was asking like all feedback welcome.

01:21:47 ◼   ► You can't control who answers your questions.

01:21:49 ◼   ► You know, just my favorite person who gets frustrated

01:21:51 ◼   ► by this is JWZ, Jamie, what's his name,

01:21:54 ◼   ► Zawinski or whatever the old.

01:21:55 ◼   ► - Yep, yep.

01:21:56 ◼   ► - Yeah, he always has like tech questions on his blog

01:21:59 ◼   ► and he's fairly famous.

01:22:01 ◼   ► And so when he asked a tech question, like many of us,

01:22:03 ◼   ► he gets lots of different answers,

01:22:04 ◼   ► but he's so angry at people

01:22:05 ◼   ► not answering the question he asked.

01:22:07 ◼   ► He always says, "I want to figure out how to get X to work with Y.

01:22:10 ◼   ► Don't tell me how I can do it by compiling my own thing.

01:22:13 ◼   ► Don't tell me how I can write a program to do it.

01:22:15 ◼   ► Don't tell me if I use a different operating system, I wouldn't have this problem.

01:22:17 ◼   ► Don't tell me this program would do it.

01:22:18 ◼   ► I want to use this program with this thing and this..."

01:22:20 ◼   ► And then a million people answer him and they just ignore him and they just tell him whatever

01:22:23 ◼   ► they want.

01:22:24 ◼   ► "You should really use Gen 2 and compile from source."

01:22:25 ◼   ► It's like, it's impossible.

01:22:27 ◼   ► I don't know why he fights that battle.

01:22:28 ◼   ► I don't fight that battle.

01:22:29 ◼   ► All feedback is welcome.

01:22:30 ◼   ► I will gladly find the feedback that I want and read it.

01:22:33 ◼   ► I will read the other ones too.

01:22:35 ◼   ► I can file it away to my own mind.

01:22:36 ◼   ► never feel like you shouldn't respond to anything. Even if I explicitly address the question

01:22:40 ◼   ► to PS4 owners, if you're an Xbox owner and you want to give me an answer, just make it

01:22:44 ◼   ► clear you're an Xbox owner and I'll put it in the right bin and it'll be fine.

01:22:47 ◼   ► Our final sponsor this week, which is also gender neutral, is Fracture. Fracture prints

01:22:52 ◼   ► your photos in vivid color directly on glass. Go to fractureme.com and if you are a new

01:22:58 ◼   ► customer you can get 15% off your first order with coupon code ATP15. So Fracture is great.

01:23:05 ◼   ► I have tons of Fractured Prints hanging up

01:23:07 ◼   ► all over my office, all over our house.

01:23:09 ◼   ► We've sent them as gifts now multiple times.

01:23:12 ◼   ► People love them.

01:23:13 ◼   ► You see these things, trust me,

01:23:14 ◼   ► I get compliments on them all the time,

01:23:16 ◼   ► people who see this in my office.

01:23:18 ◼   ► People love these things.

01:23:19 ◼   ► They make great gifts.

01:23:20 ◼   ► Holidays, of course, Mother's Day's coming up.

01:23:24 ◼   ► Oh, crap, that's gender specific, kind of.

01:23:26 ◼   ► Well, anyway, everyone has a mother at some point.

01:23:30 ◼   ► Anyway, oh boy. (laughs)

01:23:32 ◼   ► - You're overthinking it, Mother's Day, just go with it.

01:23:35 ◼   ► just go with it. Mother's Day is fine, you did not invent Mother's Day.

01:23:38 ◼   ► Right, so holidays exist, reasons to give people gifts exist, and if you want to get

01:23:44 ◼   ► a picture printed, Fracture is the way to do it, because here's what's great about these

01:23:47 ◼   ► things. So, as I said, it's photos printed on glass, so the way these things are structured,

01:23:52 ◼   ► it's a thin piece of glass, the ink is printed right onto the back side of it, and it's shining

01:23:58 ◼   ► through the front, so that way, you know, the ink is not going to scratch off, if anything

01:24:02 ◼   ► happen to the front of the glass. It's not going to scratch off or anything. These are

01:24:05 ◼   ► durable things. But also, because the glass is really thin, it looks like the picture

01:24:11 ◼   ► was printed on the top. So you get this nice, like, reflective, glossy photo print that

01:24:16 ◼   ► looks like it is just the picture on the front of the glass, but it's nice and shiny and

01:24:20 ◼   ► durable. And also because the glass layer is so thin, they're light. So you can have

01:24:26 ◼   ► like a nice big print. I mean, the ones I have above my desk, I have a pair of them

01:24:31 ◼   ► above my computer that I think are like 11 by 17,

01:24:33 ◼   ► and they don't weigh that much.

01:24:35 ◼   ► Like a framed picture that same size would weigh more

01:24:37 ◼   ► 'cause the frame would weigh more.

01:24:39 ◼   ► Fracture prints, they have this thin glass layer

01:24:41 ◼   ► and then behind it is like some foam

01:24:43 ◼   ► that then, like some foam board, so you can hang it.

01:24:45 ◼   ► You can put like a little picture hanging nail in there

01:24:47 ◼   ► or whatever.

01:24:47 ◼   ► So the whole thing is actually pretty lightweight.

01:24:49 ◼   ► It looks like it's a solid piece of glass,

01:24:51 ◼   ► but it's thin glass adhered to foam board.

01:24:54 ◼   ► So it really gives the best of everything

01:24:56 ◼   ► from a practical point of view.

01:24:57 ◼   ► Like I'm always afraid when I'm hanging a big picture

01:24:59 ◼   ► 'cause I have a couple of large frame prints

01:25:00 ◼   ► in my office too.

01:25:02 ◼   ► I'm always afraid they're gonna fall off,

01:25:04 ◼   ► they're gonna shatter or whatever,

01:25:05 ◼   ► they're gonna get broken during shipping maybe.

01:25:08 ◼   ► Fracture, I've never had that problem.

01:25:09 ◼   ► They've never fallen off, they've never broken anything,

01:25:11 ◼   ► they've never tore the nail out of the wall or anything.

01:25:14 ◼   ► You don't need a giant nail to hang them

01:25:15 ◼   ► 'cause they don't weigh that much.

01:25:17 ◼   ► They're just, they're very practical.

01:25:18 ◼   ► They have desk mounts also or desk stands.

01:25:21 ◼   ► And again, I wouldn't feel bad,

01:25:22 ◼   ► like if I had one of those on my desk

01:25:24 ◼   ► and I accidentally knocked it over,

01:25:25 ◼   ► it probably wouldn't break.

01:25:27 ◼   ► Even if it fell from my desk onto the floor,

01:25:29 ◼   ► I bet it wouldn't break.

01:25:30 ◼   ► 'Cause they're just, they're durable, they're well built,

01:25:32 ◼   ► and they just look incredible.

01:25:33 ◼   ► As I said, tons of compliments on these things.

01:25:36 ◼   ► Whenever anybody sees them, they always ask what that is.

01:25:38 ◼   ► People who are familiar with,

01:25:40 ◼   ► people who've heard the show,

01:25:41 ◼   ► who then come into my house for the first time,

01:25:43 ◼   ► they always look at those and are like,

01:25:44 ◼   ► oh, are those fractures?

01:25:45 ◼   ► They look really nice.

01:25:46 ◼   ► Like, that has actually happened numerous times now.

01:25:49 ◼   ► So yeah, always hear about them, they're fantastic.

01:25:52 ◼   ► They're also really affordable.

01:25:53 ◼   ► So their prices start at just 15 bucks

01:25:55 ◼   ► for the five by five square print.

01:25:57 ◼   ► That's the kind that I kind of famously now,

01:26:00 ◼   ► I made my row of app icons hanging above my window.

01:26:04 ◼   ► And I'm using this five by five square print.

01:26:06 ◼   ► It's 15 bucks each.

01:26:08 ◼   ► It's a no brainer, they're fantastic.

01:26:10 ◼   ► If you wanna like print your app icon to kind of show

01:26:12 ◼   ► like here's the thing I made.

01:26:14 ◼   ► Or you know, you can do podcast album art

01:26:16 ◼   ► if you're a podcaster, any kind of square art.

01:26:18 ◼   ► They also have rectangular sizes of course.

01:26:20 ◼   ► You know, it's just nice to have like these like trophies

01:26:22 ◼   ► of things you made.

01:26:22 ◼   ► And then also of course just photos.

01:26:24 ◼   ► There's lots of people take photos

01:26:26 ◼   ► as we talked about earlier,

01:26:27 ◼   ► whether you've edited your photos or not,

01:26:29 ◼   ► they make great Fracture prints.

01:26:31 ◼   ► So really check them out, they are great.

01:26:33 ◼   ► It is the thinnest, lightest, and most elegant way

01:26:35 ◼   ► to display your favorite photos.

01:26:37 ◼   ► They are all handmade by a small team in Gainesville, Florida

01:26:40 ◼   ► and hand checked for quality.

01:26:42 ◼   ► And their prices are just fantastic.

01:26:43 ◼   ► So once again, go to fractureme.com,

01:26:47 ◼   ► get 15% off your first order with coupon code ATP15.

01:26:51 ◼   ► Thanks a lot to Fracture for sponsoring the show.

01:26:54 ◼   ► - All right, so you've been busy, Marco,

01:26:57 ◼   ► and you've been working on Overcast,

01:27:00 ◼   ► specifically for the Apple Watch.

01:27:03 ◼   ► And from what we've gathered, John and I,

01:27:06 ◼   ► or John and me, whatever.

01:27:08 ◼   ► - What whom have gathered?

01:27:11 ◼   ► - You wanna make a third guess or no?

01:27:13 ◼   ► - No, I'll just, I'll quit while I'm behind.

01:27:15 ◼   ► So what have you been up to lately

01:27:18 ◼   ► and what has caused you to make all these changes?

01:27:22 ◼   ► - So I got the Apple Watch.

01:27:24 ◼   ► I got the one that was shipped on the first day

01:27:26 ◼   ► that were available, so it arrived on the 24th,

01:27:28 ◼   ► and I started using my, I had written the app before then,

01:27:31 ◼   ► and I started using the app on the watch,

01:27:34 ◼   ► and within like a day, I already looked at what I'd made,

01:27:38 ◼   ► and I'm like, okay, this, it works, but it's not very good,

01:27:42 ◼   ► and it could be better.

01:27:43 ◼   ► And there's a number of things about this.

01:27:46 ◼   ► I'm not gonna go into a whole lot of specific details

01:27:48 ◼   ► of things that worked and didn't,

01:27:49 ◼   ► 'cause that's all, that's better off as a blog post, really,

01:27:52 ◼   ► and therefore I wrote a blog post with tons of images,

01:27:55 ◼   ► and it's always bad to describe all that image stuff

01:27:57 ◼   ► on a podcast, so I'll say that for when I publish

01:28:00 ◼   ► the blog post, which will be when the new version's approved,

01:28:02 ◼   ► but I basically restructured the entire interface.

01:28:06 ◼   ► The original interface of it mimicked the three level

01:28:11 ◼   ► navigation hierarchy of the iPhone app.

01:28:13 ◼   ► So you have like, you know, root level is listed playlists

01:28:16 ◼   ► and podcasts, then you pick one of those and it pops

01:28:18 ◼   ► you into the second level, which is the list of episodes

01:28:20 ◼   ► in the thing you picked, and you pick an episode,

01:28:23 ◼   ► and it pushes you to the third level,

01:28:24 ◼   ► which is the now playing screen,

01:28:25 ◼   ► and you can go back to the other levels

01:28:27 ◼   ► and change things and whatever.

01:28:28 ◼   ► So I replicated that structure onto the watch.

01:28:31 ◼   ► So I had, you know, you'd launch the app,

01:28:33 ◼   ► and you'd see, you know, list of things,

01:28:34 ◼   ► list of episodes, and now playing.

01:28:36 ◼   ► In reality, anyone who's had a watch

01:28:39 ◼   ► has probably seen weird lags and delays

01:28:42 ◼   ► with loading apps, loading WatchKit apps.

01:28:45 ◼   ► WatchKit is really slow at times,

01:28:49 ◼   ► And in general, once things are loaded, it's fine,

01:28:52 ◼   ► but the process of loading an app,

01:28:54 ◼   ► it's doing all sorts of crazy optimizations

01:28:56 ◼   ► and power savings and everything.

01:28:58 ◼   ► And so whatever it's doing to conserve power,

01:29:02 ◼   ► it has occasional bugs still.

01:29:05 ◼   ► And I don't know if it's because it's going over Bluetooth

01:29:08 ◼   ► or if it's because this is just, you know,

01:29:09 ◼   ► watchOS 1.0 and these are 1.0 bugs.

01:29:12 ◼   ► Probably some combination of both, if I can take a guess.

01:29:16 ◼   ► But anyway, watch kit apps are fragile to some degree,

01:29:21 ◼   ► like, and they're inconsistent.

01:29:23 ◼   ► The more you ask them to do,

01:29:26 ◼   ► the more you exacerbate this problem.

01:29:28 ◼   ► I had a number of issues with my three-level

01:29:30 ◼   ► navigation structure being moved onto the watch.

01:29:32 ◼   ► One of the issues was that what I really wanted

01:29:35 ◼   ► most of the time was the now playing screen

01:29:38 ◼   ► to show up first, 'cause that's usually

01:29:40 ◼   ► what you need to interact with.

01:29:41 ◼   ► Like, changing things on the now playing screen,

01:29:43 ◼   ► seeing what's playing, seeing how much time is left,

01:29:46 ◼   ► Seeking back and forth within it,

01:29:48 ◼   ► maybe recommending it is something I frequently do.

01:29:51 ◼   ► 'Cause oftentimes I'll be out walking my dog or something

01:29:54 ◼   ► and I'll love what I'm listening to

01:29:56 ◼   ► and I wanna recommend it,

01:29:56 ◼   ► so I wanna quickly go to the watch, hit recommend,

01:29:58 ◼   ► and back back, you know, then get back to what I was doing.

01:30:00 ◼   ► Stuff like that.

01:30:02 ◼   ► None of that is going back to the list of podcasts

01:30:05 ◼   ► and list of playlists.

01:30:06 ◼   ► That's something I hardly ever do on the go.

01:30:08 ◼   ► And if I'm going to do that, I can take my phone out.

01:30:10 ◼   ► I had built this app to mimic the structure of the iOS app.

01:30:13 ◼   ► In practice, that was adding a lot of complexity

01:30:16 ◼   ► to lots of things.

01:30:17 ◼   ► Suffice to say, I restructured the whole app.

01:30:20 ◼   ► And now, it is centered on,

01:30:24 ◼   ► rather than being a three-level navigation hierarchy

01:30:26 ◼   ► where the final level isn't the now playing screen,

01:30:29 ◼   ► now it is basically a single screen interface

01:30:31 ◼   ► where the only, the root level, is the now playing screen.

01:30:35 ◼   ► And any other functions are brought up

01:30:38 ◼   ► by slide-up modal sheets, like modal dialogues.

01:30:41 ◼   ► That structure, this is not coming across well

01:30:43 ◼   ► a podcast, but that structure ends up working a lot better because it's simple. It's asking

01:30:48 ◼   ► WatchKit to load a lot less on startup. Rather than loading a three-level deep navigation

01:30:52 ◼   ► hierarchy, it is now loading one screen.

01:30:55 ◼   ► >> So am I correct in characterizing this change as you choosing to do the things the

01:31:01 ◼   ► Watch can do quickly or responsibly over the things the Watch does slowly?

01:31:07 ◼   ► >> Yes. So this is the part I wanted to actually talk about on the show, that that does translate

01:31:13 ◼   ► Well-Do-Well podcast, which is like my initial inclination, and I think what a lot of people

01:31:17 ◼   ► would have initially tried to do and did try to do with WatchKit, my initial inclination

01:31:22 ◼   ► was, well, here's this device that is another app platform for iOS. So let's port over the

01:31:31 ◼   ► iOS interface to make the watch version of the app. It's assuming that the watch version

01:31:37 ◼   ► of the app should be like the iPhone version of the app. Not only is that wrong, but I

01:31:45 ◼   ► think there's a deeper thing that's even more wrong about it. I think you can look at what

01:31:50 ◼   ► happened with these platforms growing up so far. You know, first Apple developers made

01:31:54 ◼   ► Mac apps, then iOS came along, and so a lot of the Mac developers at some point have tried

01:32:01 ◼   ► in the last seven years to make an iOS version

01:32:05 ◼   ► of their Mac app, or an iOS counterpart to their Mac app.

01:32:09 ◼   ► Usually these have not gone that well.

01:32:11 ◼   ► There's some that work, there are a lot that don't.

01:32:14 ◼   ► There's a lot of apps that can be perfectly great,

01:32:17 ◼   ► useful, in-demand apps on a Mac that just like,

01:32:20 ◼   ► just the realities of iOS devices or iOS,

01:32:24 ◼   ► the platform, the OS itself,

01:32:27 ◼   ► it just doesn't work well on iOS.

01:32:29 ◼   ► Maybe things that need precise mouse control,

01:32:32 ◼   ► keyboard shortcuts, big screens, that kind of stuff.

01:32:35 ◼   ► Like I'm not gonna edit the podcast on an iPad

01:32:38 ◼   ► even though I can, like there are tools to do that,

01:32:41 ◼   ► but I can do it so much better on a Mac

01:32:43 ◼   ► than I could ever do on an iPad

01:32:45 ◼   ► than I'm just gonna do it on a Mac.

01:32:46 ◼   ► You know, there are certain things like that

01:32:48 ◼   ► where like something might be technically possible

01:32:51 ◼   ► to migrate over to a new platform,

01:32:53 ◼   ► but not useful or compelling

01:32:56 ◼   ► compared to just having it be on one.

01:32:59 ◼   ► And same thing applies in the opposite direction.

01:33:01 ◼   ► Like a lot of iOS things are not very compelling

01:33:04 ◼   ► or useful on the Mac.

01:33:05 ◼   ► They're compelling and useful on iOS.

01:33:06 ◼   ► And you can say the same thing between iPhones and iPads.

01:33:10 ◼   ► Many things work better on one device than the other,

01:33:12 ◼   ► et cetera.

01:33:13 ◼   ► So from that point of view alone,

01:33:16 ◼   ► you can look at the watch and the assumption

01:33:18 ◼   ► that the watch should have apps corresponding

01:33:22 ◼   ► to your iPhone app, whatever app you make

01:33:25 ◼   ► or whatever app you're thinking of using.

01:33:28 ◼   ► Chances are most iPhone apps don't need watch components

01:33:32 ◼   ► and probably shouldn't have watch components.

01:33:35 ◼   ► Like for most iPhone apps, a watch component

01:33:38 ◼   ► is not that compelling and not that useful in practice,