ATP

00:00:00 ◼   ► You're always sick. Here's how I know that I'm going to be sick Adam is in school and it's the winter

00:00:06 ◼   ► Therefore we are sick

00:00:09 ◼   ► How do you pronounce this person's name you both know this person right Andreas

00:00:13 ◼   ► Netsman was one of the many people who were going to tell us that apparently IMAX no longer have IR sensors since around 2012. So

00:00:20 ◼   ► the people suggesting that perhaps my

00:00:23 ◼   ► Shiny new 5k iMac was getting woken from sleep by our apparently that's not happening because there is no sensor

00:00:28 ◼   ► So that's kind of good to know in other words this ancient history is that

00:00:32 ◼   ► IMAX have not had IR sensors since four years after your Mac Pro was made that you're still using every day

00:00:39 ◼   ► Still working just fine. I'm wondering at this point

00:00:42 ◼   ► I'm wondering if I can make it ten years, but I don't know I don't want to Apple

00:00:45 ◼   ► Just make an external 5k display for crying out loud

00:00:47 ◼   ► You'll make it

00:00:50 ◼   ► We'll see cuz they're they're not gonna make the computer you want ever and so you're gonna keep holding on sure they will

00:00:56 ◼   ► I just need an external 5k display and a computer that can drive it and they're not gonna make the display with no computer that

00:01:01 ◼   ► You can drive it and they're not gonna make a computer that can drive it with no display

00:01:03 ◼   ► So it'll happen the computer that drives it is gonna not have the right kind of gaming card for you and configure

00:01:09 ◼   ► It's gonna be way too expensive. No, it's not gonna be the right right time, but it will be acceptable

00:01:14 ◼   ► It will be way faster than everything else. I have including the one that's built into the iMac goodness

00:01:19 ◼   ► Did I tell you guys that?

00:01:21 ◼   ► So I'm working out of a client's office for the last month or so and will be for a while.

00:01:26 ◼   ► You know, as working for a client goes, it's pretty good.

00:01:30 ◼   ► But it's still kind of weird doing the staff-og thing, which is not what I'm used to doing.

00:01:36 ◼   ► But anyway.

00:01:37 ◼   ► Wait, wait, wait.

00:01:38 ◼   ► The what?

00:01:39 ◼   ► The staff-og thing?

00:01:40 ◼   ► What does that mean?

00:01:41 ◼   ► John?

00:01:42 ◼   ► I have no idea.

00:01:43 ◼   ► Really?

00:01:44 ◼   ► This is the consultant language you're speaking now.

00:01:45 ◼   ► I never did consulting.

00:01:46 ◼   ► Is this a Virginia thing?

00:01:47 ◼   ► No, no, no.

00:01:48 ◼   ► It's not a Virginia thing.

00:01:49 ◼   ► It's a consulting thing.

00:01:50 ◼   ► augmentations. So generally speaking, the work I do...

00:01:53 ◼   ► Oh, I would have got that if you had pronounced it like a New Yorker. I was like, "Staff-Og?"

00:01:57 ◼   ► Is it like "Og-vorbis?"

00:01:58 ◼   ► Yeah, I thought "O-gee."

00:02:00 ◼   ► Yeah, but you're hanging out with Tiff enough, you should know it's "Staff-Og."

00:02:02 ◼   ► It was "Staff-Og." What, you were doing "Staff-Og?"

00:02:05 ◼   ► [laughs]

00:02:07 ◼   ► Fair enough. So, "Staff-Og."

00:02:09 ◼   ► My clock is ticking like this. You know, just as a random guess here, I'm guessing that nobody

00:02:15 ◼   ► who has a New York accent thick enough to notice like that would ever say "Staff-Og." Like, just

00:02:20 ◼   ► just the phrase, would never use that phrase.

00:02:22 ◼   ► - They'd say it.

00:02:23 ◼   ► - There's no overlap between the population

00:02:24 ◼   ► who would say that phrase

00:02:25 ◼   ► and people who would have that accent.

00:02:27 ◼   ► - No, people are, there are consultants on Long Island too.

00:02:30 ◼   ► - Mm-hmm.

00:02:31 ◼   ► - I got no more use for this guy.

00:02:32 ◼   ► - So anyway, so I'm doing staff org,

00:02:34 ◼   ► and basically what that means is

00:02:37 ◼   ► rather than having a group of my coworkers

00:02:39 ◼   ► that is working to build a project as a group,

00:02:44 ◼   ► often in concert with the client,

00:02:46 ◼   ► we prefer to do it in concert with the client,

00:02:47 ◼   ► but it's a group of us.

00:02:49 ◼   ► This, by comparison, is basically I get kicked in the butt over to a client's office and

00:02:55 ◼   ► said, "Come back in a few months when the client doesn't want to pay for your time anymore."

00:02:59 ◼   ► And so I'm all by myself.

00:03:00 ◼   ► But anyway, the reason I actually bring this up is I got issued that god-awful Dell that

00:03:05 ◼   ► I had tweeted a picture of the god-awful keyboard, and I got to tell you, the trackpad is unusable.

00:03:10 ◼   ► I fiddled with the settings to kingdom come.

00:03:12 ◼   ► The trackpad is unusable.

00:03:13 ◼   ► I don't know how anyone uses a Dell.

00:03:15 ◼   ► But anyway, I look around me,

00:03:18 ◼   ► and you know what I see all over this office?

00:03:20 ◼   ► Cinema displays, everywhere, drives me insane.

00:03:24 ◼   ► I want one so badly, even though I know

00:03:25 ◼   ► there's much better displays to be had,

00:03:27 ◼   ► but I've always just thought they were so pretty

00:03:28 ◼   ► and beautiful and they have like a quasi-docking station

00:03:31 ◼   ► and I want one so bad and they're everywhere.

00:03:34 ◼   ► Makes me sad, you guys.

00:03:37 ◼   ► - Just think, if you had one,

00:03:38 ◼   ► you could plug in all of your Firewire 400 devices.

00:03:41 ◼   ► - I know, right?

00:03:42 ◼   ► It would be delightful.

00:03:43 ◼   ► No, I am jealous of it.

00:03:44 ◼   ► I'd love to have the ethernet hanging off there,

00:03:48 ◼   ► my mic set up at home hanging off of there.

00:03:52 ◼   ► A man can dream.

00:03:53 ◼   ► But yeah, so here I am using my Dell

00:03:55 ◼   ► with all of these cinema displays and MacBook Pros

00:03:57 ◼   ► and MacBook Airs all around me.

00:03:59 ◼   ► - You feel like a real consultant then, right?

00:04:02 ◼   ► - If only you had two or three Mac laptops

00:04:04 ◼   ► that you could bring one to your client's side.

00:04:07 ◼   ► - Well, and that's what I do.

00:04:08 ◼   ► I bring my work laptop so I can get work email

00:04:11 ◼   ► and talk on work IM, et cetera, et cetera.

00:04:13 ◼   ► But it's depressing.

00:04:15 ◼   ► It's sad.

00:04:16 ◼   ► Well, it would be more depressing if you really were tied to the idea of listening to your

00:04:21 ◼   ► headphones on your iPhone while you were working and charging it at the same time, which might

00:04:26 ◼   ► not be possible next year.

00:04:27 ◼   ► Oh, you're jumping ahead.

00:04:29 ◼   ► You're jumping ahead.

00:04:30 ◼   ► All right, we have more follow-up, though.

00:04:32 ◼   ► I derailed us and then you tried to move the train forward.

00:04:34 ◼   ► Let's get back on the tracks.

00:04:35 ◼   ► Yes, yes.

00:04:36 ◼   ► There's not too much follow-up, so derail is fine there.

00:04:40 ◼   ► This is from Sebastian Kraus, Kraus?

00:04:43 ◼   ► Lots of German names today.

00:04:45 ◼   ► Uh, trying to tell us about a little bit of the history behind MDNS Responder and DiscoveryD

00:04:51 ◼   ► and all that stuff.

00:04:53 ◼   ► This story is told in a video that is in German, so we're getting this translated for us, so

00:04:57 ◼   ► we'll put a link to the video in the show notes.

00:04:59 ◼   ► If you understand German you can watch it, but anyway, we're taking this person's word

00:05:01 ◼   ► for it in the translation.

00:05:03 ◼   ► Apparently the story is about Vint Cerf, the father of the internet.

00:05:06 ◼   ► You can read his Wikipedia page if you want to learn all about him and DARPA and TCP/IP

00:05:11 ◼   ► and all that good stuff.

00:05:12 ◼   ► Anyway, he was at an IETF meeting, Internet Engineering Task Force meeting, and it was

00:05:16 ◼   ► fed up that his printer wasn't working anymore, so he called up Tim Cook, which is a thing

00:05:20 ◼   ► you can do when you're in surf apparently and you're pissed off about your printer not

00:05:23 ◼   ► working, and Tim Cook then talked to Stuart Cheshire, who's the guy who invented Bonjour,

00:05:27 ◼   ► formerly known as Rendezvous and a bunch of other Apple networking stuff, and told him

00:05:31 ◼   ► to investigate, and eventually they're the ones who supposedly came up with the idea

00:05:36 ◼   ► of "let's just take out a discovery D and put in a DNS responder and see if that fixes

00:05:40 ◼   ► the problem."

00:05:41 ◼   ► So this is the possibly apocryphal story of one possible contributing factor to why did

00:05:47 ◼   ► Apple—what did it take for Apple to take action and actually fix this problem once

00:05:53 ◼   ► and for all?

00:05:54 ◼   ► And this story—I always find stories like this depressing if there's even any bit of

00:05:57 ◼   ► truth to them is like, "Well, Apple didn't care until Vint Cerf called Tim Cook." And

00:06:02 ◼   ► that's how the message actually got to the top that there was a problem. I really don't

00:06:05 ◼   ► like to believe that those things are true, but it does make for a funny story.

00:06:08 ◼   ► Yeah, I mean, honestly, it's plausible. Based on Apple's apparent reaction to, you

00:06:15 ◼   ► know, "All of a sudden there's a problem and Apple knows about it suddenly, but we've

00:06:19 ◼   ► all known about it for years," it kind of does seem like whatever system is supposed

00:06:23 ◼   ► to inform the high-ups about these problems

00:06:27 ◼   ► that a lot of people face is falling over

00:06:29 ◼   ► somewhere along the way.

00:06:30 ◼   ► Like that system, the high-ups are measuring something

00:06:35 ◼   ► and they're getting data from something,

00:06:37 ◼   ► but it doesn't seem like most of the actual problems

00:06:41 ◼   ► and actual criticism is reaching them,

00:06:43 ◼   ► and that's a little bit scary.

00:06:45 ◼   ► - Big companies are all like that to some degree.

00:06:46 ◼   ► It's just that it's the fantasy scenario

00:06:49 ◼   ► that you have as a child that follows many people

00:06:52 ◼   ► to adulthood that like somewhere in the world there are the grown-up people who know what

00:06:58 ◼   ► they're doing and like when you become an adult most people think you realize oh that's

00:07:01 ◼   ► not actually the case now I'm an adult and I realize no one knows what they're doing

00:07:04 ◼   ► right but we hold on to a little bit of that especially for the things that we admire like

00:07:09 ◼   ► okay my company doesn't know what it's doing the the higher-ups in my company have no clue

00:07:14 ◼   ► and my company is dysfunctional but surely the you know richest company in the world

00:07:19 ◼   ► the most successful technology company in the world got that way because they're better

00:07:22 ◼   ► than my crappy company. So even though I understand that yes, no one knows what they're doing

00:07:25 ◼   ► and there's no people somewhere who are like in charge and actually understand things,

00:07:30 ◼   ► surely Apple is at least a little bit different. But I mean Apple is a big company just like

00:07:34 ◼   ► any other big company and it's really difficult to organize a big company in a way that doesn't

00:07:40 ◼   ► incentivize people in management layers below the top to hide bad news from the people about

00:07:45 ◼   ► them because they get rated and judged by how well they're doing and like it's

00:07:52 ◼   ► it's it's everyone's best interest to some degree to not fully to not convey

00:07:58 ◼   ► that losslessly up the management chain right and so that's why I like that the

00:08:02 ◼   ► Sebastian who wrote in is basically described this as a fix from the top

00:08:06 ◼   ► down where you would hope that there's lots of other people talking to lots of

00:08:10 ◼   ► other customers and stuff about problems and doing you know the leaf nodes of the

00:08:13 ◼   ► org chart, doing all sorts of things involving customers, gathering information, so on and

00:08:18 ◼   ► so forth.

00:08:19 ◼   ► But that information has to go up, up, up the chain.

00:08:21 ◼   ► And the more levels it has to go through, the more likely it is to be toned down or

00:08:25 ◼   ► re-prioritized or whatever, until by the time it gets to the top, something that is a real

00:08:32 ◼   ► problem for most end users that the leaf nodes know about by the time it gets to the top

00:08:37 ◼   ► doesn't seem like that big of a deal.

00:08:38 ◼   ► So it has to come, you know.

00:08:40 ◼   ► And the other thing is just human nature.

00:08:41 ◼   ► people at the top. Maybe Vint Cerf was not annoyed by Discovery, did he say he was annoyed

00:08:45 ◼   ► by some other thing that just happened to annoy him? That might have gotten fixed, and

00:08:50 ◼   ► that just would have been Vint Cerf's problem. So he would have bypassed the entire organization

00:08:53 ◼   ► to get a thing that isn't a problem for most other people fixed, and he would be happy,

00:08:57 ◼   ► and so in some respects the organization is working to try to prioritize things to tell

00:09:01 ◼   ► Tim Cook what's really important. In this case it just so happened that the top-down,

00:09:06 ◼   ► you know, celebrity-based fixing also happened to hit on the thing that was a problem for

00:09:11 ◼   ► a lot of other people. So, I don't know. Anyway, companies are messed up.

00:09:15 ◼   ► Good talk.

00:09:16 ◼   ► Well, you know, like, I mean, Casey, since Marco has a little bit experience with big

00:09:20 ◼   ► companies, I think Casey having worked in or consulted for big companies at the very

00:09:23 ◼   ► least, have you seen some of this going on where the lower you get in the org chart,

00:09:27 ◼   ► the more people really know what's going on?

00:09:29 ◼   ► Oh, God, yes. And not at the company I'm consulting with now, but I think we talked about it on

00:09:34 ◼   ► the show like two years ago, but there was a large firm in Richmond that I did some consulting

00:09:40 ◼   ► for. And it was abundantly obvious to me that most of the organization was mental management

00:09:48 ◼   ► and most of the organization, really all these mental managers, really knew deep down that

00:09:54 ◼   ► they were all redundant. And so every meeting you were in, everyone wanted to be included

00:10:00 ◼   ► and everyone wanted to say something really, really interesting. So everyone around them

00:10:05 ◼   ► knew, "Oh, Susie isn't expendable because Susie just said something smart." Bob, he's

00:10:13 ◼   ► expendable because he didn't really say anything this meeting, and it was just ridiculous because

00:10:18 ◼   ► it was a billion middle managers and like seven actual grunts who actually got work

00:10:22 ◼   ► done. You're absolutely right.

00:10:24 ◼   ► The Tips in the Chat Room points out the story about John Mayer, the musician, famously emailing

00:10:29 ◼   ► bugs in logic directly to Steve Jobs. And then they got fixed. You get an email, the

00:10:35 ◼   ► logic team would get an email that says, "Fix this, Steve." And that's like the worst way

00:10:40 ◼   ► to do this, by the way. To have a famous person go to the very top of your organization and

00:10:45 ◼   ► have the person at the top of your organization highly motivated to satisfy the famous person.

00:10:50 ◼   ► Because sometimes the famous person will find a legit bug that everyone has experienced.

00:10:53 ◼   ► But a lot of the time, the famous person will just be annoyed by some minor issue. And why

00:10:57 ◼   ► Why do they get this special treatment?

00:10:59 ◼   ► They may be reshaping the application in a bad way for most people just to satisfy John

00:11:05 ◼   ► Mayer.

00:11:06 ◼   ► So this is not a scalable system.

00:11:07 ◼   ► I'm not saying the way it works now with the leaf node's message not getting up as bad

00:11:11 ◼   ► and this is better.

00:11:13 ◼   ► Really you don't want either one of those things.

00:11:15 ◼   ► You want an efficient organization that correctly communicates what's really happening to your

00:11:20 ◼   ► customers and how they really feel about your product up the management chain without diluting

00:11:23 ◼   ► it in a way to protect the reputation of your group or whatever it is that you're doing

00:11:27 ◼   ► as a manager to try to say, "Well, this wasn't our fault and this isn't that big of a problem

00:11:32 ◼   ► and everything we made in this last release is going really well, so give me a good rating

00:11:36 ◼   ► and a big bonus this year."

00:11:38 ◼   ► Our first sponsor this week is Cards Against Humanity.

00:11:42 ◼   ► And rather than a regular sponsor read, they asked Jon to review one last toaster.

00:11:47 ◼   ► [Music]

00:11:58 ◼   ► So remember when I said I found that toaster in my garage? I didn't realize I

00:12:02 ◼   ► had that the monstrosity with like the big griddle on top of it? Yeah. And all

00:12:07 ◼   ► that other stuff. Since I didn't realize I had that toaster at some point during

00:12:10 ◼   ► the year, you had asked the question that we always ask is like, "Do you have a

00:12:14 ◼   ► toaster for this week?" And I'd be like, "No, I don't have a toaster." And then they

00:12:16 ◼   ► would rush one out to me and I would get a toaster.

00:12:19 ◼   ► And so basically somewhere their account got off.

00:12:21 ◼   ► So a toaster arrived for this week, but I already had toasters.

00:12:24 ◼   ► So now I have two toasters for this week, and there's no sense in saving one of them

00:12:27 ◼   ► because this is the last week, so this is going to be a double toaster review.

00:12:30 ◼   ► Yes!

00:12:31 ◼   ► This is exciting.

00:12:32 ◼   ► Lucky, lucky you.

00:12:34 ◼   ► The first toaster is the Americana Collection 3-in-1 Mini Breakfast Shop, shop with two

00:12:39 ◼   ► two P's and an E. This is model EBK-200BL. And if you look at it, it looks a lot like

00:12:47 ◼   ► the crazy one from the last time. The red thing, it's got, it's like a toaster oven.

00:12:53 ◼   ► It's got a little tiny coffee pot, drip coffee pot thing. And on top of the toaster, it's

00:12:58 ◼   ► got a little thing that gets hot where you can in theory cook some eggs or something.

00:13:02 ◼   ► Right. The last one, remember I said that the coffee thing, even though the picture,

00:13:06 ◼   ► picturing it like it's a regular drip coffee thing, really it's like tiny and

00:13:10 ◼   ► doll-sized. This one my daughter actually said in the kitchen, she walked up and

00:13:13 ◼   ► said "that looks like it's for a doll!" This thing is microscopic. It is

00:13:17 ◼   ► incredibly, incredibly small. Obviously the coffee thing is tiny but then look at

00:13:21 ◼   ► the toaster part. I mean I guess you could look at the measurements and try

00:13:23 ◼   ► to get an idea for it but here's the best way I can describe it to our

00:13:26 ◼   ► audience. The tray that slides inside the toaster is smaller than the Magic Track

00:13:30 ◼   ► Pad 2. Can you even fit one piece of bread on there? You can fit one piece of

00:13:36 ◼   ► bread in there if it's not too big. So you can't do two. Wow. Yeah. So this is very similar to the

00:13:42 ◼   ► old one. I didn't know there was such a market for these three-in-one things. So similar, like,

00:13:45 ◼   ► so the coffee thing looks like it might even be using some of the same parts. That one still does

00:13:49 ◼   ► its job. You can put water in there, it heats it up pretty quickly, it drips through the filter

00:13:53 ◼   ► into the thing. If you like drip coffee, this is, you know, this is a drip coffee thing. It doesn't

00:13:57 ◼   ► take too long to boil the water. It's got the same type of thing where the top dial decides

00:14:01 ◼   ► what heating elements will be on, and the bottom one is just a plain timer. They don't even bother

00:14:05 ◼   ► there were little pictures of light medium and dark toasted. It's like, look, it's just a timer. Just turn it. Good luck.

00:14:10 ◼   ► It'll give you any guidance there.

00:14:13 ◼   ► And it's good thing they don't give you any guidance because

00:14:15 ◼   ► trying to toast a piece of toast in there, at around five minutes and 50 seconds

00:14:20 ◼   ► I gave up not being able to see any real color on the top of the toast and I took it out and the bottom

00:14:25 ◼   ► was overdone, practically black in the middle, like uneven.

00:14:28 ◼   ► And the top had no color on it at all. And that's after almost six minutes.

00:14:32 ◼   ► So as a toaster it fails to tow even though you only put one piece of bread in there it fails to toast it

00:14:36 ◼   ► There is no adjustable rack by the way

00:14:38 ◼   ► So I was saying maybe why is it burning on the bottom and not cooked on the top?

00:14:40 ◼   ► Maybe I can move the rack up but the rack doesn't adjust

00:14:42 ◼   ► The top thing instead of having a full-size griddle. It has a little circular tin same problem as before

00:14:48 ◼   ► It just doesn't it doesn't get hot enough or doesn't like I think the real problem is doesn't have enough thermal mass

00:14:52 ◼   ► Like it's it's just a thin piece of metal

00:14:54 ◼   ► So that when you put the egg on it

00:14:56 ◼   ► It just sucks all the heat out of the thing and the heating elements don't have enough to like keep up like I think basically

00:15:01 ◼   ► the griddle acts as a heat sink for the heating elements, dissipating their heat but not into the

00:15:06 ◼   ► egg. So I was able to cook, and you can really only put one egg in there, like it's practically

00:15:10 ◼   ► the size of a poached egg thing, all right? So I was able to cook one fried egg, and I have to say

00:15:14 ◼   ► it did a better job than the previous one, and at least that one egg, I was able to cook it,

00:15:18 ◼   ► and it came out as like an actual egg, like it cooked enough to stay together and let me flip

00:15:23 ◼   ► it over and everything. But really, nobody should ever buy this or the other thing. It's not good at

00:15:31 ◼   ► anything that it does, please just do not. It is adorable though. As it's been sitting

00:15:35 ◼   ► in the kitchen, this one even more than the red one, it looks adorable. It looks like

00:15:39 ◼   ► doll furniture. It looks like you have an Easy Bake Oven on your counter. It looks like

00:15:41 ◼   ► one of your kids' toys is in there, but it really works, sort of.

00:15:44 ◼   ► Well, yeah, to varying degrees of work. I wish you could try the coffee.

00:15:48 ◼   ► It's just a drip cup. It's like you've got a filter in there, comes with a filter, it

00:15:52 ◼   ► makes the water hot, it runs it through the filter, drips into the little thing. I don't

00:15:56 ◼   ► see how the machine itself could affect the quality of the coffee coming out of it, because

00:16:00 ◼   ► It really is the most primitive thing you can imagine.

00:16:02 ◼   ► It's all just plastic parts inside there.

00:16:03 ◼   ► There's nothing fancy.

00:16:04 ◼   ► It is not, I mean, look at the price.

00:16:07 ◼   ► What is this?

00:16:08 ◼   ► This is like--

00:16:09 ◼   ► - $35.

00:16:10 ◼   ► - Yeah, $35.

00:16:11 ◼   ► So you've gotten what you're paying for there.

00:16:12 ◼   ► So I think the main market for this would be Hollywood prop buyers who want to put something

00:16:16 ◼   ► in the background of a scene, seen in like a cute kitchen apartment in like Manhattan

00:16:21 ◼   ► or something.

00:16:22 ◼   ► 'Cause it's cute.

00:16:23 ◼   ► - And I really do wonder, like obviously there's a market for these because so many are for

00:16:28 ◼   ► sale.

00:16:29 ◼   ► But I just have to wonder, who is buying them?

00:16:31 ◼   ► - Suckers, like people who think, isn't that great?

00:16:33 ◼   ► It's a great way to save counter space.

00:16:36 ◼   ► I have three things all in one place.

00:16:37 ◼   ► And again, the same problems, like who wants to cook

00:16:39 ◼   ► on top of your toaster oven?

00:16:40 ◼   ► Your toaster ovens are usually underneath,

00:16:41 ◼   ► like there are overhead cabinets above it,

00:16:43 ◼   ► and then you're making hot steam go into the bottom

00:16:45 ◼   ► of your cabinets, it's just not a good idea.

00:16:46 ◼   ► Even if it worked, it wouldn't be a good idea.

00:16:48 ◼   ► And it just does, like seriously,

00:16:50 ◼   ► can't even toast one slice of bread in six minutes.

00:16:52 ◼   ► Forget it.

00:16:53 ◼   ► - The best thing is, this has a four-star average review

00:16:56 ◼   ► on Amazon with 240 reviews.

00:16:59 ◼   ► - How?

00:16:59 ◼   ► - It has to be paid for.

00:17:01 ◼   ► Maybe they just don't know

00:17:01 ◼   ► how these things are supposed to operate.

00:17:03 ◼   ► - Everything's smaller than expected,

00:17:05 ◼   ► but works as promised.

00:17:06 ◼   ► Verified purchase.

00:17:08 ◼   ► The toast-driven was probably the biggest negative.

00:17:10 ◼   ► It is only wide enough to fit one slice of break.

00:17:13 ◼   ► (laughing)

00:17:16 ◼   ► - That is true.

00:17:17 ◼   ► And it won't toast it after six minutes.

00:17:19 ◼   ► - Fortunately, there is a top burner and a bottom burner,

00:17:22 ◼   ► so you can stack two pieces of bread on top of each other

00:17:25 ◼   ► and flip them in the middle of cooking.

00:17:26 ◼   ► - Oh my God.

00:17:27 ◼   ► No, no you can please

00:17:29 ◼   ► Why not just like hold your bread over a match

00:17:33 ◼   ► And just move it around

00:17:36 ◼   ► It's cool

00:17:37 ◼   ► I can actually take this with me when I'm on the road to set up in the hotels I stay in

00:17:42 ◼   ► The things like the drip coffee maker they have in hotels is better than this

00:17:45 ◼   ► Yeah

00:17:46 ◼   ► like and those are terrible and that would be better than this yeah because at least it's like sturdy and doesn't fall apart because that

00:17:51 ◼   ► You have to to be in a hotel room and hold tomorrow coffee

00:17:53 ◼   ► Wow, all right anyway the second one let's let's try to you know bring this back from the insanity of these multi-function device

00:18:00 ◼   ► Second one is just a legit toaster oven. This is the KitchenAid 12 inch convection baked digital countertop oven model KC 0 2

00:18:08 ◼   ► 7 3

00:18:11 ◼   ► Put the URL this one in the chat room for everybody. This is a high-priced one. This is a hundred and eighty seven dollars

00:18:16 ◼   ► Yeah, this is a fancy toaster oven we're back to normal looking things

00:18:21 ◼   ► The first thing you have to know about this is it's really big.

00:18:23 ◼   ► I know they all look the same size on Amazon.

00:18:25 ◼   ► I have a pretty big toaster, the Breville 650 XL.

00:18:29 ◼   ► This is really big.

00:18:30 ◼   ► It's like the bigger Breville.

00:18:32 ◼   ► It's so big that I think it really is beyond what is reasonable for most people's kitchens.

00:18:37 ◼   ► If you have a really, really big house, this will be to scale.

00:18:39 ◼   ► It's kind of like when you have a big room, you have to put a big sofa in it.

00:18:44 ◼   ► For interior design, you have to scale the furniture to the room.

00:18:47 ◼   ► Unfortunately, I like to scale the furniture to the people but no matter how big you are

00:18:51 ◼   ► If you have a really small room and you put a gigantic

00:18:53 ◼   ► Puffy leather sofa in it it will over overwhelm the room and similarly if you have a cavernous room you want to put this delicate

00:18:58 ◼   ► Little sofa in it. It won't quite look right. So anyway, this is a big toaster oven

00:19:03 ◼   ► So do not buy this unless you have a really big kitchen or you really want to dedicate that much space to it

00:19:08 ◼   ► It's tall. It's wide. It's deep. It's humongous

00:19:10 ◼   ► I when when I put this on my counter since I have like narrow like New England ancient countertops

00:19:15 ◼   ► Opening the door practically, that's it. There's no more counter space left. Like there's a toaster

00:19:19 ◼   ► I can open the door and I don't remember the door overhangs the edge of my counter, but it's close. This thing is huge

00:19:23 ◼   ► It's stainless steel just like in the picture. That is actual stainless steel not plastic colored stainless steel very sturdy construction

00:19:30 ◼   ► I think even the handle is stainless steel

00:19:32 ◼   ► Which occasionally the handle will be like plastic for like insulation

00:19:35 ◼   ► It feels rugged it feels you know, it looks nice and glossy

00:19:40 ◼   ► Plus the everything feels thick, the wire rack feels incredibly rugged, thick gauge

00:19:46 ◼   ► wire, it's actually got this little metal strip on the front of it.

00:19:49 ◼   ► Everything is very solid.

00:19:50 ◼   ► The door feels solid, it opens and closes solidly, it's got the little, not little rubber

00:19:54 ◼   ► stoppers, big rubber stoppers on it, the spring tension is just right, doesn't wobble, doesn't

00:19:59 ◼   ► creak.

00:20:00 ◼   ► Three positions for the rack, and they have little instructions for another thing about

00:20:04 ◼   ► where the different positions are for.

00:20:06 ◼   ► five heating elements for those thin resistive style ones plus one of the thicker quartz

00:20:10 ◼   ► style ones on top in the middle. It has a huge thick cord like one of those like for

00:20:15 ◼   ► a power tool like your you know your Makita drill or something like a big three prong

00:20:20 ◼   ► cord with a very thick cable and the big connector and I don't know why these guys do this because

00:20:24 ◼   ► don't they know it has to go in the kitchen like where do they think people are plugging

00:20:27 ◼   ► in their toaster ovens like you're gonna put it on your counter and then you're gonna plug

00:20:30 ◼   ► it in and the plug is gonna be just above your counter right the plug sticks out like

00:20:34 ◼   ► three inches from the place where you plug it in because it's a huge three prong connector,

00:20:37 ◼   ► right? It's not, they need to make flush mount plugs. You know how they, you know, those little

00:20:41 ◼   ► adapters they sell for them? You have to make it like, even if the plug isn't right behind the

00:20:45 ◼   ► toaster, because if it was, the toaster would be six inches away from the wall. Even if it's not

00:20:48 ◼   ► right outside, who wants to see this big thick, like hard to manage, you know, maybe the cord has

00:20:53 ◼   ► to be that thick for the power requirements, but make a flat mount plug people. I don't know what

00:20:56 ◼   ► the hell they're doing. Let's see, the controls on this one, if you look at it, are very similar

00:21:02 ◼   ► to my Breville, I don't know who copied who. Obviously I had my Breville first so I'm thinking,

00:21:06 ◼   ► "Oh, they copied the Breville's control." Who knows who copied this first. But anyway,

00:21:09 ◼   ► there's an LCD on top, a backlit LCD on top showing you temperatures, timers, countdowns,

00:21:16 ◼   ► the same type of controls where you get to pick a temperature and a number of slices or whatever.

00:21:21 ◼   ► There's two knobs. The first one is the function knob for all the different things you can do,

00:21:25 ◼   ► toast, bake, and it has things for reheat and bagel that does different temperatures

00:21:31 ◼   ► during different phases. Like for example, the bagel will do a lower temperature to toast it,

00:21:35 ◼   ► and then towards the end, it'll do the top elements only really high to toast the tops of the bagel.

00:21:40 ◼   ► It's assuming you have a bagel that's been sliced in half, yeah, stuff like that. Lots of different

00:21:44 ◼   ► functions. In fact, more functions than the Breville for all sorts of different things.

00:21:47 ◼   ► This is also a convection oven, by the way, which is one of the reasons it's so freaking huge,

00:21:50 ◼   ► because they've got to fit all the convection fans in there. So there are function settings for

00:21:53 ◼   ► convection type baking too, where they'll try to bake a whole chicken and keep the air flowing,

00:21:57 ◼   ► and then crisp up the skin at the end and everything. And then the knob below it is

00:22:00 ◼   ► is the control knob, which really is just kind of like the control knob in your BMWs

00:22:05 ◼   ► or whatever, where you just press it to select and turn to go up and down selections in a

00:22:10 ◼   ► menu. The knobs themselves, they are not as wobbly as they are on the Breville, they're

00:22:15 ◼   ► still plastic but they're not as wobbly, they don't have as much slop, they're not made

00:22:17 ◼   ► to look like fake metal, which helps. They're nicer materials than the Breville ones, they're

00:22:21 ◼   ► not like shiny plastic, they're kind of like textured. They're still a little bit gritty,

00:22:25 ◼   ► they're not the best feeling knobs, but they're better than the Breville ones, so they're

00:22:28 ◼   ► pretty good. Since the function knob on the bottom really should just be a disk, because

00:22:32 ◼   ► it's like turn left, turn right to go through a series of options and press in, it's weird

00:22:36 ◼   ► that it has like a flathead screwdriver type like indentation, they want you to pinch it,

00:22:41 ◼   ► because there's it just spins around forever. Like there's no there's no markings or anything.

00:22:44 ◼   ► It's really just a jog dial basically. And it's weird for a jog dial to have a part where

00:22:48 ◼   ► you can grab it because then it's like when you're done with it, where do you leave it?

00:22:51 ◼   ► Do you leave it pointing up? Do you like anytime you turn it, it might change a number on the

00:22:55 ◼   ► screen. So that's a little bit weird, but I think just did it for symmetry. And then

00:22:58 ◼   ► it's got a start button on the bottom, it's got a little button for frozen things. What

00:23:01 ◼   ► is that other button for? I can remember off the top of my head. Oh, and the convection

00:23:04 ◼   ► button to turn convection on and off.

00:23:06 ◼   ► So the knob feels good?

00:23:07 ◼   ► So, so. Like I said, it's higher quality than my Breville, and they don't feel like they're

00:23:11 ◼   ► shaky and they're about to come off, and they're not fake-looking. It's supposed to look like

00:23:14 ◼   ► metal, but it's really plastic. But I think the decision to make the jog dial look positional

00:23:19 ◼   ► when it's not really is a little bit off. Plus, you have to press it as a button. It's

00:23:22 ◼   ► weird to press a button that's, you know, that's like a dial that you can pinch.

00:23:27 ◼   ► time, four minutes and 30 seconds for a piece of toast. Not great, the Breville is a little

00:23:31 ◼   ► bit faster, but this thing's cavernous, like, you'd be lucky if it doesn't take eight minutes.

00:23:35 ◼   ► And it did a pretty decent job of toasting. The convection features, I didn't have an

00:23:41 ◼   ► opportunity to test because I didn't have anything that you would cook in convection,

00:23:43 ◼   ► but it has like a cookie setting and stuff, so I think you could actually use this as

00:23:46 ◼   ► a miniature oven.

00:23:47 ◼   ► You didn't have an entire chicken to put in there, like as depicted in one of these pictures?

00:23:51 ◼   ► Well, that's a tiny chicken. Like, this is not as tall as the super tall one was, so

00:23:56 ◼   ► There isn't that, you know, I would still treat it as a toaster oven, not as a place

00:23:59 ◼   ► you're, like, remember the one that had the probe built in?

00:24:01 ◼   ► That you could, that could probably fit a bigger chicken.

00:24:03 ◼   ► So to categorize this, I would say this is most similar to the Big Breville, which I've

00:24:08 ◼   ► never tested, by the way.

00:24:09 ◼   ► And so I assume it's okay because I have a small Breville and people who have the Big

00:24:13 ◼   ► Breville say it's good, but it seems similar in terms of it feels sturdy, it looks nice,

00:24:18 ◼   ► it does the job it's supposed to do, it has enough heating elements to heat up that big

00:24:21 ◼   ► interior, and I guess if you want to use it as an oven, it'll work fine too.

00:24:24 ◼   ► I think the best the things to recommend this the most are the things that I like most about my Breville

00:24:29 ◼   ► I like seeing immediately when I press the start button how long it thinks it's gonna take

00:24:33 ◼   ► Because it'll you know as soon as you put the pieces of toast in there you say how many pieces of toast and what level?

00:24:38 ◼   ► Of darkness which is a number that you can pick three four or five six seven you just learn whatever darkness you like

00:24:42 ◼   ► And then you press the start button

00:24:44 ◼   ► And it will tell you it'll start counting down from four minutes and 20 seconds or whatever and then when you put in the second

00:24:49 ◼   ► Round of bread if someone else wants toast it will start counting down from three minutes and 30 seconds because the thing has heated up

00:24:54 ◼   ► Right, you know how long it's gonna take you get to see a countdown

00:24:56 ◼   ► it's easy to adjust because

00:24:58 ◼   ► They get it they get around the whole problem of trying to do the darkness adjustment because it's a number on a screen and really

00:25:03 ◼   ► You're just using a control to adjust a screen the screen really helps because then you can do

00:25:06 ◼   ► Countdowns and show words and numbers up there. It's not like a full bitmap display

00:25:10 ◼   ► It's a you know, a bunch of seven segment things and a bunch of other things, but it makes a big difference

00:25:14 ◼   ► The little frozen button is surprisingly useful

00:25:16 ◼   ► It's kind of like that a little bit more button that some of the toasters have where you're like

00:25:20 ◼   ► I'm gonna toast bread, but actually this bread is straight out of the freezer

00:25:22 ◼   ► So put it on the same toast setting you always want but then hit the little snowflake button

00:25:26 ◼   ► And it will just add a little bit more to get it defrosted before it goes into the toast cycle. So

00:25:30 ◼   ► Overall if you want a really big toaster and considering I haven't tested the really big Breville

00:25:36 ◼   ► This is the best really big toaster I've ever tried. It is a solid quality product. It does all the jobs

00:25:42 ◼   ► It's supposed to do if you as they say if you have the space I can recommend it

00:25:47 ◼   ► Wow, so if you have the means you highly suggest picking one up. Yeah. Yeah

00:25:52 ◼   ► Yeah, no, it is a quality product.

00:25:54 ◼   ► Now--

00:25:55 ◼   ► That's a reference, Sean.

00:25:56 ◼   ► Since this is the last one-- I know, I was making that reference.

00:25:58 ◼   ► Since this is the last one of these we're doing, a lot of people have asked about the

00:26:01 ◼   ► Sweet Homes toaster reviews.

00:26:03 ◼   ► Their number one pick was one of the toasters that I did review a while back.

00:26:07 ◼   ► It was the really tall Panasonic one that was really, really fast.

00:26:11 ◼   ► And people were asking, "What do you think of their reviews?"

00:26:14 ◼   ► They do actual product reviews, not joke ad product review things.

00:26:17 ◼   ► So go read their reviews.

00:26:19 ◼   ► They actually test them.

00:26:20 ◼   ► put a million pieces of bread into all these things.

00:26:22 ◼   ► My criteria may be different than theirs,

00:26:24 ◼   ► but I'm not doing the kind of testing they're doing.

00:26:25 ◼   ► So please read their review

00:26:26 ◼   ► if you really care about toasters.

00:26:28 ◼   ► Now that said, having used the one they picked

00:26:31 ◼   ► as a top pick, the reason I don't like it

00:26:33 ◼   ► is because I think the UI is weird

00:26:34 ◼   ► and I think it's oddly shaped,

00:26:36 ◼   ► but it does toast things really fast and really efficiently

00:26:38 ◼   ► and does a good job on them.

00:26:39 ◼   ► But for my purposes, I want to be able to put

00:26:42 ◼   ► four slices of bread in there or a whole tray

00:26:44 ◼   ► full of English muffin pizzas or something.

00:26:47 ◼   ► And they just won't fit in the toaster

00:26:48 ◼   ► 'cause it's just not big enough.

00:26:49 ◼   ► And so it doesn't fulfill anything.

00:26:50 ◼   ► And the UI is just crazy with the membrane buttons

00:26:52 ◼   ► and all the different functions that the Breville interface

00:26:55 ◼   ► and this interface are just way better.

00:26:56 ◼   ► But that matters less to them in their rating.

00:26:58 ◼   ► They're mostly saying what, when the bread comes out,

00:27:00 ◼   ► how does it look and how does it taste?

00:27:02 ◼   ► And that toaster, that Panasonic toaster,

00:27:05 ◼   ► toast bread really fast and does a good job on it.

00:27:07 ◼   ► So I don't disagree or agree with their ratings.

00:27:09 ◼   ► I just know what I want out of my toasters.

00:27:11 ◼   ► That's what I'm reviewing.

00:27:13 ◼   ► ♪ Syracuse of toast ♪

00:27:16 ◼   ► ♪ Reviews all day every single day ♪

00:27:18 ◼   ► ♪ Hear him talk about toast ♪

00:27:21 ◼   ► ♪ And I'm whisked away ♪

00:27:23 ◼   ► ♪ I can love my toaster ♪

00:27:25 ◼   ► - This whole year we've had toaster reviews

00:27:26 ◼   ► from Carbs Against Humanity.

00:27:27 ◼   ► This is the last one.

00:27:29 ◼   ► Great idea, this is their idea, fantastic idea.

00:27:31 ◼   ► We all had a great time.

00:27:32 ◼   ► And yeah, thanks a lot.

00:27:34 ◼   ► - But please, no more toasters.

00:27:35 ◼   ► (laughing)

00:27:37 ◼   ► I never did test the top pick, the top expensive pick.

00:27:40 ◼   ► Like, the sweet home has like, here's our top pick,

00:27:42 ◼   ► and they always try to take budget into consideration.

00:27:44 ◼   ► And they always have like,

00:27:45 ◼   ► if you have a little bit more money,

00:27:46 ◼   ► this one's even better.

00:27:47 ◼   ► It's not better enough that we think it's worth it,

00:27:49 ◼   ► but it's a little bit better.

00:27:49 ◼   ► And I have not tested that toaster.

00:27:51 ◼   ► Whatever that toaster is, I'm actually curious about it.

00:27:53 ◼   ► Maybe if my thing ever dies, I'll take it.

00:27:55 ◼   ► And by the way, I didn't say, but a couple of,

00:27:57 ◼   ► I guess a couple of months ago at this point,

00:27:58 ◼   ► I did finally open up my Breville

00:28:00 ◼   ► and adjust the stupid springs

00:28:01 ◼   ► and the door doesn't spring open.

00:28:02 ◼   ► - Nice. - Or spring closed rather.

00:28:04 ◼   ► Which was a real pain, man.

00:28:06 ◼   ► I could, I literally could not figure out

00:28:08 ◼   ► how to get this toaster apart without breaking it.

00:28:10 ◼   ► Luckily I can get to the spring

00:28:11 ◼   ► without actually fully disassembling it,

00:28:12 ◼   ► but I think any one of those eye-opener things from iFixit

00:28:15 ◼   ► that like heats up some glue or something,

00:28:16 ◼   ► I don't know what the hell is holding this thing together, but it is...

00:28:19 ◼   ► There are a lot of screws and it is very solidly constructed, so I was just lucky I could get through it to the point where I could get to the spring and adjust the tension.

00:28:27 ◼   ► Goodness. I'm gonna miss these reviews. You sure you don't want any more toasters?

00:28:31 ◼   ► No, I just... I think I have like three or four left to ship out of here and then no more.

00:28:36 ◼   ► No more, please. They're just too big.

00:28:38 ◼   ► We'll have to send you small objects to review.

00:28:40 ◼   ► Yeah, I'll review diamonds.

00:28:42 ◼   ► [laughter]

00:28:45 ◼   ► Slightly included.

00:28:47 ◼   ► I see what you did there.

00:28:48 ◼   ► What are the 5Cs anyway? 4Cs rather.

00:28:51 ◼   ► Anyway, alright, so we should probably talk about what went on this week.

00:28:54 ◼   ► Can we talk about the headphone jack business really quickly?

00:28:58 ◼   ► Oh boy, I'd like to talk about this.

00:29:00 ◼   ► So there are rumors based on an interesting translation from some Japanese site.

00:29:07 ◼   ► I don't think we even have the link in the show notes, do we?

00:29:09 ◼   ► I don't know. I mean, the source of this is pretty unreliable.

00:29:12 ◼   ► I think based on the rumor and based on some things

00:29:16 ◼   ► that we've looked at here and there

00:29:18 ◼   ► and been told here and there,

00:29:19 ◼   ► it sure seems like this rumor has no more credibility

00:29:23 ◼   ► than any other random rumor that you find

00:29:25 ◼   ► with poor sourcing on the internet.

00:29:26 ◼   ► So the rumor itself has no credibility really,

00:29:30 ◼   ► but it is I think worth talking about,

00:29:32 ◼   ► would Apple do this and what would be the ramifications?

00:29:36 ◼   ► - Well the rumor may not like the specifics of the rumor,

00:29:39 ◼   ► like we think the iPhone 7,

00:29:40 ◼   ► which will be the next major iPhone that Apple makes,

00:29:42 ◼   ► is going to have this feature.

00:29:43 ◼   ► Well, you know, whatever.

00:29:44 ◼   ► Maybe it seems like the sourcing for that is not great.

00:29:47 ◼   ► But we do know for a fact that you can plug

00:29:51 ◼   ► compatible headphones into the Lightning port

00:29:53 ◼   ► on your existing iPhones and they will work as headphones.

00:29:55 ◼   ► Like that Apple has already added headphone support

00:29:58 ◼   ► to the Lightning port for iPhones.

00:29:59 ◼   ► And that you can buy, I don't know who buys these things,

00:30:02 ◼   ► but you can, we'll put a link in the show notes,

00:30:04 ◼   ► headphones right now today that have at the end of them,

00:30:06 ◼   ► instead of the 3.5 millimeter headphone jack,

00:30:10 ◼   ► have a lightning port and plug them into your existing iPhone

00:30:12 ◼   ► and it will work fine.

00:30:13 ◼   ► And you have to think, why would Apple do that

00:30:16 ◼   ► if at some point it wasn't at least considering,

00:30:18 ◼   ► are we gonna keep that headphone jack?

00:30:20 ◼   ► Are we gonna have that all the time?

00:30:22 ◼   ► You know, the things are getting thinner,

00:30:23 ◼   ► maybe we should start thinking about

00:30:24 ◼   ► what we're gonna do.

00:30:25 ◼   ► It doesn't mean they're gonna make a phone

00:30:26 ◼   ► without one ever even,

00:30:27 ◼   ► but they did do something that opens the door for this.

00:30:30 ◼   ► That's why people take these rumors vaguely seriously.

00:30:33 ◼   ► And I think before like the last iPhone,

00:30:35 ◼   ► maybe it was for the iPhone 6,

00:30:37 ◼   ► same rumors were out there

00:30:38 ◼   ► because people were hearing about headphone support for the Lightning port. And lo and

00:30:42 ◼   ► behold, that actually exists and is a thing and is there right now. So that's why I think

00:30:46 ◼   ► this is worth entertaining because Apple would not both implement and ship something like

00:30:50 ◼   ► that if it hadn't considered very seriously the idea of ditching the headphone port at

00:30:54 ◼   ► some point in the future.

00:30:55 ◼   ► >>Steve - I mean, so the idea of ditching the headphone port, first of all, the rumor

00:31:00 ◼   ► is that they would ditch the headphone port in order to make the iPhone a millimeter thinner.

00:31:04 ◼   ► And this was covered pretty well in this week's episode of the talk show with Jon Gruber and

00:31:07 ◼   ► and John Moltz, so I don't wanna go too far to this

00:31:11 ◼   ► 'cause they literally gave an hour to it.

00:31:13 ◼   ► It was pretty good.

00:31:14 ◼   ► But the short version is that you don't need

00:31:17 ◼   ► to ditch the headphone jack to get

00:31:19 ◼   ► that extra millimeter today because the current generation

00:31:22 ◼   ► of iPod touches still has the headphone jack

00:31:26 ◼   ► and is at least that much thinner.

00:31:28 ◼   ► So you don't need to do that.

00:31:31 ◼   ► Now, granted, you could and you could make other gains.

00:31:34 ◼   ► We're getting to the point now where making the phone

00:31:37 ◼   ► noticeably thinner will require dropping things

00:31:40 ◼   ► that people tend to like in their phones,

00:31:42 ◼   ► like the headphone port and like good cameras.

00:31:45 ◼   ► So let's see what they do in that area.

00:31:46 ◼   ► Maybe they can make different advances, we'll see.

00:31:48 ◼   ► But right now, thinness alone is probably

00:31:51 ◼   ► not a good enough reason yet.

00:31:53 ◼   ► - I didn't listen to that episode,

00:31:54 ◼   ► but did they talk about the slimmed down

00:31:56 ◼   ► 3.5 millimeter jack?

00:31:58 ◼   ► - They didn't.

00:31:59 ◼   ► Yeah, didn't Apple change the way it was built

00:32:01 ◼   ► and make a special one or something like that?

00:32:03 ◼   ► - There's a Apple patent, which again,

00:32:05 ◼   ► Apple patents everything.

00:32:06 ◼   ► It's an Apple and Cider link.

00:32:07 ◼   ► It's basically like a regular headphone jack

00:32:09 ◼   ► but with the one side filed down to be flat.

00:32:12 ◼   ► I just put the link in the show notes.

00:32:13 ◼   ► - And there is, by the way, there is also,

00:32:15 ◼   ► so the headphone jack that most people think of

00:32:18 ◼   ► is a 3.5 millimeter jack.

00:32:20 ◼   ► There's also a 2.5 millimeter version

00:32:23 ◼   ► that has existed forever also,

00:32:26 ◼   ► just like all the other ones.

00:32:27 ◼   ► So there is a smaller version of the standard headphone jack

00:32:31 ◼   ► that is occasionally used on things.

00:32:33 ◼   ► In fact, a lot of headphones,

00:32:33 ◼   ► If the headphone that you're using has a detachable cable,

00:32:37 ◼   ► there's a pretty decent chance that the end of the cable

00:32:39 ◼   ► that plugs into the ear cup might have that size plug on it.

00:32:42 ◼   ► A lot of them do.

00:32:44 ◼   ► So those plugs exist.

00:32:46 ◼   ► They could switch to that and gain a whole extra millimeter,

00:32:48 ◼   ► which is a pretty big deal at this scale.

00:32:50 ◼   ► That now, granted, again, they don't need to yet.

00:32:53 ◼   ► - Although for the 2.5 one, I think one of the reasons

00:32:57 ◼   ► that they would wanna stay away from that is,

00:32:59 ◼   ► I know from having kids that it's possible

00:33:02 ◼   ► to bend the 3.5 millimeter one,

00:33:04 ◼   ► just from kids bumping it around,

00:33:05 ◼   ► 2.5 would have been even easier.

00:33:08 ◼   ► Maybe adults don't do this,

00:33:09 ◼   ► but it's kind of getting to the point

00:33:11 ◼   ► where you don't want that one to be on the,

00:33:12 ◼   ► because I think the 2.5 millimeter

00:33:14 ◼   ► is easier to bend than lightning.

00:33:16 ◼   ► And I don't know, maybe this is just me,

00:33:19 ◼   ► but anyone who has kids who use their iOS devices,

00:33:21 ◼   ► like that they get to use all the time that are theirs,

00:33:24 ◼   ► go to all of them and take the kids' headphones,

00:33:26 ◼   ► plug them into the jack, and then rotate them

00:33:28 ◼   ► and see if they actually are still straight on axis.

00:33:31 ◼   ► It seems like every one of my kids touch,

00:33:33 ◼   ► not massively bent, but bent enough that you can see that.

00:33:36 ◼   ► - Seriously?

00:33:37 ◼   ► - Yeah, just wait, it'll happen.

00:33:39 ◼   ► - Yeah, so anyway, assume Apple does this.

00:33:42 ◼   ► What does that, so assume they get rid of the headphone jack

00:33:45 ◼   ► and the only way you can plug headphones,

00:33:47 ◼   ► or the only way you can use headphones with an iPhone

00:33:49 ◼   ► is either over Bluetooth or through lightning.

00:33:51 ◼   ► So what does that mean in practice?

00:33:54 ◼   ► And I've heard, I mean, I don't have a real job,

00:33:57 ◼   ► but I've heard a lot of people who have real jobs

00:34:00 ◼   ► listen to music on their phones for a big chunk of the work day through headphones at

00:34:05 ◼   ► work. For whatever reason, they either can't or don't want to use music services on the

00:34:10 ◼   ► work computer itself, so they plug into the phone and use like a streaming service or

00:34:15 ◼   ► the music library on their phone to listen to music at work. Most of the time, I would

00:34:19 ◼   ► expect the phone to be plugged in during this process. If you do this, if you have it so

00:34:24 ◼   ► that that jack has gone away, chances are Apple would probably ship a little dongle

00:34:30 ◼   ► for between $20 and $40 that would basically be a lightning to 3.5 millimeter headphone

00:34:37 ◼   ► adapter. And we've seen how they do these things, chances are it would not have a lightning

00:34:42 ◼   ► pass-through to also charge the phone. Chances are this would be a one plug thing, one plug

00:34:47 ◼   ► on each end, and that would be it. Similarly, lightning headphones would have the same problem

00:34:52 ◼   ► where lightning headphones don't have a lightning pass through port to also simultaneously

00:34:56 ◼   ► charge the phone while you're listening to the headphones. So chances are, if they did

00:35:02 ◼   ► this, you could no longer listen to the phone while it was being charged unless you abandon

00:35:08 ◼   ► wires completely and go to Bluetooth.

00:35:10 ◼   ► Well, I mean, a million third parties would sell adapters for it. And by the way, I see

00:35:13 ◼   ► people listening to their phones at work and none of them have it plugged in. So maybe

00:35:17 ◼   ► they just like it because with the screen is often it's just playing audio even if maybe

00:35:20 ◼   ► it's playing like Spotify and streaming stuff it's not that bad or maybe people just don't care.

00:35:24 ◼   ► But yeah, if Apple didn't build it somebody would because it would be eminently buildable. So I don't

00:35:28 ◼   ► think that would be a significant deterrent to doing this and I don't think it would preclude

00:35:34 ◼   ► people from charging their phone while they listen because they just make an adapter.

00:35:37 ◼   ► Yeah and also consider that the official Apple, I always get the name of this wrong, but the

00:35:44 ◼   ► Lightning AV connector, whatever it is that we talked about last episode.

00:35:48 ◼   ► Yeah, your favorite thing in the world.

00:35:49 ◼   ► yeah, like my favorite thing in the world. This thing does have a lightning pass-through.

00:35:53 ◼   ► I actually think you're right, Marco, that it's unlikely that that's the approach Apple would

00:35:57 ◼   ► take for this, because I think it's far more likely that they would just, they would assume

00:36:01 ◼   ► that listening would not be all day long and that you wouldn't need to charge as you listen.

00:36:06 ◼   ► But there is a precedent for them doing something with a lightning pass-through. And the whole

00:36:10 ◼   ► reason there's lightning pass-through on this cable is so that you can charge your phone while

00:36:14 ◼   ► while you're displaying whatever you have on the phone

00:36:17 ◼   ► on a TV or whatever.

00:36:19 ◼   ► - Right, so that is one thing that would be inconvenient

00:36:23 ◼   ► or problematic for people if they did this.

00:36:25 ◼   ► - Well, the main inconvenient thing, of course,

00:36:27 ◼   ► is that you can't use your old headphones,

00:36:28 ◼   ► even if they ship an adapter,

00:36:29 ◼   ► even if you don't need to charge,

00:36:30 ◼   ► having to have an adapter is annoying.

00:36:32 ◼   ► That is the main inconvenience is,

00:36:34 ◼   ► but what about all my headphones?

00:36:35 ◼   ► And I don't wanna use an adapter

00:36:38 ◼   ► and it's just not elegant or nice or whatever.

00:36:40 ◼   ► And so that was, you know,

00:36:41 ◼   ► last time we had this discussion

00:36:43 ◼   ► when the rumors of lightning port headphone support were out there, same thing. It's like,

00:36:47 ◼   ► well, I don't want to not have all my headphones. And, you know, that's what everybody says anytime

00:36:52 ◼   ► a port gets, you know, I don't want to lose all my charging cables. I don't want to not be able

00:36:56 ◼   ► to use all my docs when they change from 30 pin. But the headphone port, as many people have

00:37:00 ◼   ► pointed out on Twitter and elsewhere, is way older than the 30 pin connector, and is not as terrible

00:37:05 ◼   ► as the 30 pin connector. Like, it's fairly solid port, you can't put it in the wrong way. It's

00:37:09 ◼   ► It's pretty sturdy. It's been around by, I saw some estimates of being like 90, 80, 90

00:37:14 ◼   ► years depending on how you measure. Maybe it was over 100, I forget.

00:37:17 ◼   ► I mean it has this minor problem of shorting itself out when you plug it in, but you know,

00:37:21 ◼   ► other than that it's okay.

00:37:22 ◼   ► Yeah, you know, it's not the best in the world, but like with all these things, like the thing

00:37:26 ◼   ► that came to mind to me is VGA ports. VGA ports, granted, weren't around since 1910.

00:37:32 ◼   ► Fine. But they were around for a really long time, and they had limitations that were obvious,

00:37:38 ◼   ► especially as we went from analog to digital video

00:37:40 ◼   ► with like DVI connections and HDMI and display port

00:37:43 ◼   ► and stuff like that.

00:37:44 ◼   ► But VGA was like the standard.

00:37:46 ◼   ► You go into a conference room, they have VGA connectors.

00:37:48 ◼   ► And what eventually did VGA connectors in

00:37:51 ◼   ► was not all the things I just listed,

00:37:53 ◼   ► which should have been obvious.

00:37:54 ◼   ► Like, well, you can't keep doing VGA.

00:37:55 ◼   ► You're gonna constantly convert to analog.

00:37:57 ◼   ► It's just terrible.

00:37:58 ◼   ► And then the resolution limits and like,

00:37:59 ◼   ► we have all these digital standards.

00:38:01 ◼   ► Why wouldn't you switch those?

00:38:02 ◼   ► What did VGA in is eventually everybody's laptops

00:38:05 ◼   ► too damn small to fit a VGA port on the side. That's what did it. It's just, I mean, I know

00:38:11 ◼   ► you can still find it on your Dells. I know they make laptops that are like exactly the

00:38:16 ◼   ► thickness of a VGA port. I think I even saw where the tops and bottoms of the VGA port

00:38:20 ◼   ► were basically, there was no like plastic above and below them. They were just, you

00:38:24 ◼   ► know what I mean? Like it was, there was no like thing to shove the VGA port into. It

00:38:28 ◼   ► was just like, there was like a notch cut out and the VGA port was there. So when you

00:38:31 ◼   ► plugged in something, the plug would be thicker than the thing. Anyway, that's what eventually

00:38:35 ◼   ► did in VGA ports, certainly on the Mac,

00:38:37 ◼   ► and on a lot of other slim laptops that are out there.

00:38:39 ◼   ► 'Cause if you wanna have a really slim laptop,

00:38:41 ◼   ► the VGA port is just too darn big.

00:38:42 ◼   ► So that future is lurking out there,

00:38:45 ◼   ► probably in the possibly distant future,

00:38:48 ◼   ► but who knows, for smartphones.

00:38:51 ◼   ► Because eventually we'll be able to get smartphones

00:38:53 ◼   ► thin enough that the port will be thicker than the thing.

00:38:56 ◼   ► Now, we were already there with high quality cameras,

00:38:59 ◼   ► as Marco pointed out before,

00:39:00 ◼   ► that the phone is already thicker than the camera,

00:39:02 ◼   ► and we just make the camera poke out.

00:39:03 ◼   ► So who's to say you couldn't have a credit card thin iPhone 15 years from now and hanging

00:39:09 ◼   ► off the edge of it, a 3.5 inch thing.

00:39:12 ◼   ► You know what I mean?

00:39:13 ◼   ► Like it would be this big lump, this big silly lump thing, but it wouldn't detract too much

00:39:18 ◼   ► from the thinness of the phone.

00:39:19 ◼   ► It would still be in a situation where then if you drop your phone, it would flutter harmlessly

00:39:23 ◼   ► to the ground and you would pick it up.

00:39:24 ◼   ► And the fact that it has the silly headphone port poking out of it wouldn't bother anybody.

00:39:29 ◼   ► I'm not sure the headphone port is raised to the level where we're willing to say,

00:39:35 ◼   ► "You know what?

00:39:36 ◼   ► Even when our phone is the thickness of a credit card, I will be perfectly fine with

00:39:40 ◼   ► there being a 3.5-inch headphone jack on there."

00:39:43 ◼   ► Of course, at that point, lightning will also be too thick.

00:39:46 ◼   ► In thinking about this, I think we can all agree I don't want to make this infinite

00:39:50 ◼   ► timescale argument, but this may literally be one.

00:39:53 ◼   ► You finally said it.

00:39:54 ◼   ► I know.

00:39:55 ◼   ► Well, you guys keep using the phrase, but this may be an actual application of it because

00:39:58 ◼   ► it's like, look, that port is going to go away eventually.

00:40:01 ◼   ► It just is, right?

00:40:02 ◼   ► Yeah.

00:40:03 ◼   ► The question is, is this the year that it goes away?

00:40:06 ◼   ► In terms of timing, say you were like the grand poobah

00:40:08 ◼   ► of when ports go away across the industry, which Apple kind of

00:40:11 ◼   ► is, because once they make a move, everyone yells at them

00:40:13 ◼   ► and says they're stupid for doing it,

00:40:14 ◼   ► and then does the same thing five years later, or two years

00:40:16 ◼   ► later, or one year later.

00:40:18 ◼   ► See also floppy drives and getting rid of legacy ports,

00:40:21 ◼   ► although PCs have been much slower about that.

00:40:24 ◼   ► Is this the year to do it?

00:40:25 ◼   ► Would you do it this year?

00:40:26 ◼   ► With the iPhone 7, I mean, would you

00:40:27 ◼   ► decide that this is the year to do it, or would you wait until you have to do it for

00:40:31 ◼   ► some thickness reason? Because I agree with Marco that they don't have to do it for a

00:40:34 ◼   ► thickness reason, but would you do it anyway to sort of say, "We want to get the pain

00:40:39 ◼   ► over with now," or would you wait until everything goes USBC and you finally give

00:40:43 ◼   ► up on Lightning in six years? I don't know.

00:40:47 ◼   ► You can look at this and, to me, there's so many downsides to doing this. First of

00:40:52 ◼   ► First of all, I think this would cause a substantial loss

00:40:56 ◼   ► of goodwill, that this would be a big deal.

00:41:00 ◼   ► Look at how many people complained for so long

00:41:03 ◼   ► and got so mad about the switch to lightning at all.

00:41:06 ◼   ► To have them also basically make everyone's headphones

00:41:08 ◼   ► obsolete or make them worse by having them requiring

00:41:11 ◼   ► some dongle to be plugged in, this would be a really,

00:41:14 ◼   ► really big problem for their goodwill

00:41:17 ◼   ► and customer satisfaction and for the press's impression

00:41:19 ◼   ► and what everyday people, what all people,

00:41:22 ◼   ► end up thinking about it and thinking about them.

00:41:24 ◼   ► - How many iPhone buyers do you think use headphones

00:41:27 ◼   ► other than the ones that come with the iPhone?

00:41:29 ◼   ► - I mean, you can look at Beats as a pretty big example

00:41:31 ◼   ► that it's a pretty big number.

00:41:33 ◼   ► I mean, I think that the market for aftermarket headphones

00:41:38 ◼   ► is pretty healthy right now.

00:41:39 ◼   ► I very rarely see people using the earbuds anymore.

00:41:43 ◼   ► - See, I'm trying to think of what I see people using

00:41:46 ◼   ► and I mostly see people using the earbuds.

00:41:47 ◼   ► You're right that the big headphones,

00:41:49 ◼   ► So the next thing I would say is if they're not using earbuds, what are they using?

00:41:52 ◼   ► I would say they're using something like Beats, whether they're real Beats or Beats ripoffs

00:41:56 ◼   ► or just big headphones like that.

00:41:59 ◼   ► But I don't know.

00:42:01 ◼   ► There are upsides to this for people who sell headphones, obviously, right?

00:42:06 ◼   ► Because even the people who sell earbuds suddenly get to increase their margins because previously

00:42:12 ◼   ► they were selling, "Oh, hey, you broke or lost the things that came with your Apple

00:42:17 ◼   ► earbuds.

00:42:18 ◼   ► earbuds, you like that they're small, you don't want big beat sized things but you lost

00:42:21 ◼   ► or broke them and you want a replacement and you don't want to pay for Apple's. Buy ours,

00:42:25 ◼   ► which are $3 cheaper than Apple's, but our margins are huge because these earbuds are

00:42:29 ◼   ► pieces of crap and they have a lightning port on them. So these are made for iPhone, iPhone

00:42:34 ◼   ► compatible ear pods or whatever.

00:42:37 ◼   ► - Right, this is a way for Apple to not only sell a very large number of high volume dongles

00:42:43 ◼   ► and accessories to adapt old headphones, but it's also a way now for Apple to, through

00:42:48 ◼   ► the MFI program, to take a royalty on every headphone sold. Like that's, of course, I

00:42:55 ◼   ► mean look, you can look at this as, you know, the various benefits that this might bring,

00:43:01 ◼   ► you can look at it as the various downsides it might bring, and I'll address Bluetooth

00:43:04 ◼   ► separately because Bluetooth is a whole different story, but you know, if you're still staying

00:43:07 ◼   ► wired, I hate to be cynical about this, but I think a realistic way to think about this

00:43:12 ◼   ► is would today's Apple, really today's Apple,

00:43:16 ◼   ► not the Apple that we want to exist,

00:43:18 ◼   ► but the actual Apple that does exist today,

00:43:20 ◼   ► would today's Apple make an already very thin device,

00:43:24 ◼   ► even thinner, at the expense of usefulness

00:43:27 ◼   ► in the real world, and in a way that would increase

00:43:31 ◼   ► the average selling price of their best-selling product

00:43:34 ◼   ► by designing it to basically require high-margin accessories

00:43:38 ◼   ► at the expense of customer satisfaction and goodwill?

00:43:40 ◼   ► Yes, of course they would.

00:43:42 ◼   ► They do this all the time now.

00:43:43 ◼   ► - But it depends on how much customer satisfaction

00:43:46 ◼   ► and goodwill.

00:43:47 ◼   ► That's why when I, if I keep thinking about this,

00:43:48 ◼   ► if I was gonna run a meeting on this at Apple,

00:43:51 ◼   ► the first thing I would say is before we even discuss

00:43:53 ◼   ► this headphone things, we have to decide

00:43:54 ◼   ► if we're ever gonna go USB-C.

00:43:56 ◼   ► Are we gonna stick with Lightning?

00:43:57 ◼   ► If we're gonna stick for Lightning,

00:43:58 ◼   ► is Lightning on a 10 year plan?

00:43:59 ◼   ► Or is it not?

00:44:01 ◼   ► Like, are we ever gonna, because Lightning and USB-C

00:44:04 ◼   ► are really similar to the point where,

00:44:07 ◼   ► like Lightning was important for Apple to have

00:44:09 ◼   ► because they had it for years before USB-C came out, right?

00:44:11 ◼   ► But the USBC is here now. So how many more years do we give lightning or are we committed to lightning for?

00:44:17 ◼   ► Is it really on a 10-year plan and we're not even consider an alternative until 10 years?

00:44:21 ◼   ► You're up because you have to have that discussion first because it's not just that we're saying get rid of the headphone port

00:44:26 ◼   ► It's get rid of the headphone port and the place where you plug it in is this lightning port and you really don't want to do

00:44:31 ◼   ► A thing where we had lightning for a while

00:44:33 ◼   ► Then we got rid of the headphone port and all the headphones had to be lightning and then a couple years after that we got

00:44:37 ◼   ► rid of lightning and all the headphones had to be USB-C or some crap like that.

00:44:40 ◼   ► That is really bad in the long timeline for customer satisfaction.

00:44:43 ◼   ► I think you can only absorb a certain number of these "we're getting rid of the floppy

00:44:47 ◼   ► drive" type of revolutions.

00:44:49 ◼   ► You can't stack them that close together.

00:44:51 ◼   ► So I think you really have to plan this thing out.

00:44:54 ◼   ► And I think you should plan it because like I said, it's going to go away eventually.

00:44:56 ◼   ► Eventually the phone's going to get so thin that you're going to have to make really difficult

00:44:58 ◼   ► choices about bulges and crap like that.

00:45:01 ◼   ► And if anyone's going to get rid of it on their phones, it's probably going to be Apple

00:45:04 ◼   ► because that's their thing.

00:45:05 ◼   ► They're more willing to get rid of it.

00:45:07 ◼   ► Even today's Apple that sells millions and millions

00:45:10 ◼   ► of these iPhones, they are the ones

00:45:12 ◼   ► who are gonna be more willing to get rid of this.

00:45:14 ◼   ► You just have to put it on a plan.

00:45:15 ◼   ► And right now, if the plan is not to keep lightning

00:45:18 ◼   ► for a long, long time, now is not the time

00:45:21 ◼   ► to get rid of the 3.5-inch port.

00:45:23 ◼   ► If they do get rid of it, it's not like they're gonna make

00:45:24 ◼   ► an announcement and say, "Yeah, we're getting rid

00:45:26 ◼   ► "of the headphones for it, and by the way,

00:45:27 ◼   ► "our current plan is to keep lightning around

00:45:29 ◼   ► "for at least five or six more years."

00:45:31 ◼   ► So don't even think about USB-C.

00:45:33 ◼   ► It's not gonna happen.

00:45:34 ◼   ► investment in lightning headphones will last you several years, many years, don't feel

00:45:38 ◼   ► too bad about it.

00:45:40 ◼   ► But they're not going to say that, so it'll be sort of an unknown.

00:45:42 ◼   ► If I had to put money on it right now, I would say I would bet against.

00:45:47 ◼   ► Not strongly against.

00:45:49 ◼   ► You know, $5149 percentage-wise, but I would bet against the iPhone 7 dropping the headphone

00:45:55 ◼   ► port, because I don't see a reason for it, and I don't feel like now is the time.

00:46:00 ◼   ► Because I really think that they will reconsider lightning sooner rather than later.

00:46:04 ◼   ► So I think they can hold out until they reconsider lightning in a couple of years and then they

00:46:09 ◼   ► can get rid of the port.

00:46:10 ◼   ► Because then they actually will probably need it thickness-wise.

00:46:14 ◼   ► But I do think that they should do it before they really need to.

00:46:17 ◼   ► The first one they do it on won't be because they just couldn't do it any other way.

00:46:20 ◼   ► It'll be because they wanted to set things up.

00:46:23 ◼   ► They wanted to take the hit when they were going to take the hit, set things up, and

00:46:26 ◼   ► then by the time they really, really need it, it's already kind of like lightning.

00:46:29 ◼   ► Like, did they have to go to the Lightning for the first phone they had, or could they

00:46:32 ◼   ► have wedged a 30-pin on there?

00:46:34 ◼   ► They could have fit a 30-pin on there.

00:46:35 ◼   ► It would have fit technically.

00:46:36 ◼   ► It would have been maybe awkward or whatever, but it could have fit.

00:46:38 ◼   ► But they didn't wait until they absolutely desperately needed Lightning.

00:46:41 ◼   ► They did Lightning when it looked very small on the end of the phone, and now the phones

00:46:45 ◼   ► are slowly shrinking down around it, and I think that's what they'll do with the headphone

00:46:48 ◼   ► replacement.

00:46:49 ◼   ► Yeah, I think you're right.

00:46:50 ◼   ► And I also think, you know, this is absolutely the kind of thing Apple would do.

00:46:55 ◼   ► the downsides be damned, they would definitely do it because, yeah, it makes things thinner,

00:47:00 ◼   ► even though we don't need them to be, but it makes things thinner, and it makes them

00:47:05 ◼   ► more money. So they would absolutely do it. But I don't think they're going to do it this

00:47:09 ◼   ► year. I don't think they need to yet, and I don't think it makes sense.

00:47:12 ◼   ► Yeah, I don't think it's going to happen either, but personally, I wouldn't be that bothered

00:47:17 ◼   ► by it. I almost never use Bluetooth headphones with my phone, but I might be the only person

00:47:22 ◼   ► on the planet that isn't particularly bothered by Bluetooth headphones.

00:47:27 ◼   ► I use Bluetooth headphones at work all day every day, and they're connected to my Mac,

00:47:31 ◼   ► not my phone.

00:47:32 ◼   ► They are very cheap headphones.

00:47:34 ◼   ► I think they were $25 new when I bought them literally four years ago.

00:47:39 ◼   ► The battery lasts at least a day, if not a couple of days.

00:47:43 ◼   ► The latency—yeah, if I hit pause, it doesn't pause instantly, but there's no latency when

00:47:48 ◼   ► I watch videos.

00:47:50 ◼   ► There's none of the – or I don't feel any of the qualms that so many people seem

00:47:55 ◼   ► to feel when they use Bluetooth headphones.

00:47:57 ◼   ► So if that means – if Bluetooth is our future, Bluetooth only is our future, or some silly

00:48:03 ◼   ► dongle, I don't think that's such a terrible future.

00:48:06 ◼   ► I think that Apple will get eviscerated in their customer's set, but I don't think

00:48:12 ◼   ► it's such a terrible future.

00:48:14 ◼   ► We've been, as Mac users – which is different, but as Mac users, laptop users – we've

00:48:18 ◼   ► stupid display dongles forever. I'm very overjoyed that this new MacBook Pro that I have is an

00:48:25 ◼   ► HDMI port. But generally speaking, we've had to use silly dongles all the time. If you're

00:48:30 ◼   ► one who uses most iPhone battery packs, most of the ones that I've ever seen, there's something

00:48:38 ◼   ► in the way of the headphone port. So if your headphone jack is any bigger than the headphone

00:48:45 ◼   ► port, like the ones that I've bought always include a one or two inch little extension

00:48:51 ◼   ► so you can clear the battery case and then plug in your headphone to the little extension.

00:48:57 ◼   ► Like none of these things are that terribly new. And again, I just, if Bluetooth is our

00:49:03 ◼   ► future I don't think that's such a bad thing. Sorry Marco.

00:49:06 ◼   ► Well it's not, Bluetooth it's kind of like the move to the watch. It's like here

00:49:12 ◼   ► Here is something else that is more expensive than what it might have replaced based on

00:49:19 ◼   ► a lot of software and flaky standards, so it's a little bit unreliable.

00:49:25 ◼   ► There's some lag involved in common actions.

00:49:28 ◼   ► And it's one more thing that needs to be charged and put on an upgrade cycle.

00:49:33 ◼   ► And I think we have so many of these things in the world.

00:49:37 ◼   ► And I say this as a user of the phone and the watch and Bluetooth headphones.

00:49:42 ◼   ► Most of the time when I'm using my phone for audio playback,

00:49:46 ◼   ► most of the time I'm using Bluetooth headphones.

00:49:48 ◼   ► Because most of the time I'm listening to podcasts,

00:49:50 ◼   ► my little Sennheiser PX210BT, which are amazing headphones,

00:49:54 ◼   ► although they're not made anymore,

00:49:55 ◼   ► but the MM400X is basically the same thing.

00:49:57 ◼   ► I love those headphones for podcasts,

00:49:59 ◼   ► but they're flaky, they need to be charged,

00:50:02 ◼   ► it is kind of annoying.

00:50:03 ◼   ► So in many ways this is a step forward,

00:50:07 ◼   ► but like Force Touch, it's a step forward

00:50:10 ◼   ► that's also kind of a step sideways

00:50:11 ◼   ► kind of worse in some ways and more complicated.

00:50:14 ◼   ► You know, what if Apple released a Bluetooth set of headphones that charges via lightning,

00:50:22 ◼   ► similar to the Apple Pencil, and charges really, really fast via lightning? Would that make

00:50:28 ◼   ► it easier on all of us? I was going to say regular people, but it would make it easier

00:50:32 ◼   ► on me too. You know, would that make it easier on all of us if you could get a couple of

00:50:36 ◼   ► hours worth of listening off of a five-minute charge?

00:50:40 ◼   ► I mean, the charging is one downside of many.

00:50:44 ◼   ► It's the unreliability, the extra battery power

00:50:47 ◼   ► that the phone needs to send the signal,

00:50:49 ◼   ► which then makes the phone battery life worse.

00:50:51 ◼   ► I mean, there's a lot of little downsides to Bluetooth.

00:50:54 ◼   ► And the reason I use it is because it is really convenient

00:50:58 ◼   ► when I'm walking around.

00:50:59 ◼   ► And these headphones sound like complete garbage.

00:51:02 ◼   ► And most Bluetooth headphones I have heard

00:51:05 ◼   ► sound either mediocre to bad.

00:51:08 ◼   ► And I don't think, you know, a lot of people say,

00:51:10 ◼   ► "Oh, well Bluetooth is a bad sounding protocol."

00:51:13 ◼   ► It is, but most of the sound problems people have

00:51:15 ◼   ► with Bluetooth headphones are because

00:51:16 ◼   ► the headphones themselves are mediocre.

00:51:18 ◼   ► Like the drivers are mediocre,

00:51:20 ◼   ► the whole design of the headphones is mediocre.

00:51:22 ◼   ► They just sound bad because usually you can plug 'em in

00:51:24 ◼   ► with a cable and you can hear the sound

00:51:25 ◼   ► just as bad over a cable.

00:51:27 ◼   ► But you know, the world of Bluetooth is not all bad.

00:51:29 ◼   ► And I think ultimately enough people are gonna be using

00:51:33 ◼   ► Bluetooth headphones often enough over time

00:51:36 ◼   ► that when they do finally kill the 3.5 inch jack,

00:51:39 ◼   ► which I don't think is happening this year,

00:51:40 ◼   ► but when they finally do it,

00:51:42 ◼   ► a big portion of people won't be affected at all

00:51:44 ◼   ► because they will already have moved onto Bluetooth,

00:51:46 ◼   ► but we are not there yet, and it isn't all good.

00:51:50 ◼   ► - Yeah, Bluetooth keeps evolving too,

00:51:51 ◼   ► the different versions of the standard,

00:51:53 ◼   ► so you think eventually, by the time, you know,

00:51:56 ◼   ► in many more years, it will still be Bluetooth,

00:51:59 ◼   ► but probably Bluetooth in name only,

00:52:00 ◼   ► and will maybe use different signaling,

00:52:02 ◼   ► and different frequencies and different compression strategies or whatever, and hopefully the

00:52:10 ◼   ► stacks that do it will be more reliable.

00:52:12 ◼   ► It will have evolved to the point where it passes that threshold of flakiness.

00:52:17 ◼   ► Because I think Bluetooth has been getting better, certainly in terms of power consumption,

00:52:20 ◼   ► Bluetooth has been getting better, so it doesn't drain your battery as much when you've got

00:52:23 ◼   ► the Bluetooth 4.0 whatever things.

00:52:27 ◼   ► All these ones that take less energy from your phone and I assume take a little bit

00:52:31 ◼   ► less energy for your headphones or maybe they're just passive receivers.

00:52:34 ◼   ► But anyway, what I always think about is Bluetooth earbuds, because I hate having cords, I hate

00:52:38 ◼   ► cords getting tangled up and stuff, you know, it would just be much more convenient if I

00:52:42 ◼   ► could stick my phone in my pocket, and what I want is earbuds because I don't, you know,

00:52:45 ◼   ► I'm listening to the podcast, I don't care, if I could put little earbuds in my ears and

00:52:48 ◼   ► then I would probably lose them so they have to be magnetic and maybe they could be magnetic

00:52:51 ◼   ► and stick to the back of the phone and inductively charge when they're not using them.

00:52:54 ◼   ► Like that is the wireless future, but I think Apple will ditch the headphone port before

00:53:00 ◼   ► wireless standards are as good as we would all like them to be.

00:53:04 ◼   ► I guess, what is that threshold?

00:53:07 ◼   ► Is it like Wi-Fi?

00:53:08 ◼   ► Is Wi-Fi, I guess Wi-Fi is above the threshold of flakiness.

00:53:12 ◼   ► Wi-Fi is way more reliable than Bluetooth.

00:53:15 ◼   ► It's still kind of flaky for some people though.

00:53:18 ◼   ► I don't know what, obviously there's signal strength where you're in some weird corner

00:53:21 ◼   ► of your house and you have lead in your walls and tough luck, right?

00:53:25 ◼   ► But for places where you get good signal but you are losing Wi-Fi, I don't hear many stories

00:53:30 ◼   ► about it. Certainly doesn't happen on Macs or when it does like it's a big deal in the

00:53:33 ◼   ► Apple community like oh the new version of OS X screws up Wi-Fi like we demand it to

00:53:36 ◼   ► be reliable. It's like if I can get a signal and I have enough bars on my little display

00:53:41 ◼   ► I want that connection to stay up and if it doesn't something is terribly wrong and Apple

00:53:45 ◼   ► needs to have a class action lawsuit against it right?

00:53:47 ◼   ► Meanwhile if somebody screwed up Bluetooth you wouldn't even notice.

00:53:50 ◼   ► Right Bluetooth again I mean like I said in my in my crappy car when I get in I just have

00:53:54 ◼   ► to wait to see. First of all if I don't have the source set to Bluetooth like if the source

00:53:58 ◼   ► to set to something else, Bluetooth doesn't even appear in the list of sources for a while.

00:54:01 ◼   ► So I have to listen to AM or FM or iPod or something else while I wait. I can't turn

00:54:06 ◼   ► the system off because that will not initiate the process of getting Bluetooth set up. So

00:54:10 ◼   ► I have to wait until Bluetooth appears as a source and then select it, which is annoying.

00:54:14 ◼   ► That's just your car. And if Bluetooth is already selected, say Bluetooth, I haven't

00:54:18 ◼   ► changed the selection, I get in the car, I start the engine, it's a long time before

00:54:22 ◼   ► I hear anything coming out of there. I have to wait and wait. I don't know what it's doing.

00:54:25 ◼   ► Is it booting up?

00:54:26 ◼   ► Is it trying to find my phone?

00:54:29 ◼   ► Usually it finds it.

00:54:30 ◼   ► Maybe 99% of the time it finds it after five or six seconds.

00:54:34 ◼   ► Sometimes it doesn't find it and I have to go to like, you know, connect to audio device

00:54:37 ◼   ► and it's already, it shows itself already being connected, but going through that thing

00:54:41 ◼   ► in the menu makes it connect.

00:54:42 ◼   ► Anyway, like I said, yeah, Bluetooth.

00:54:44 ◼   ► Well, you know, Bluetooth is way too flaky now and if it was messed up in some way, I

00:54:49 ◼   ► would never notice.

00:54:50 ◼   ► You say that, but what do you use?

00:54:53 ◼   ► Well, see, I can't ask you this.

00:54:55 ◼   ► Most people, however, probably use a Bluetooth keyboard and/or Bluetooth pointing device

00:55:01 ◼   ► for any sort of Mac that lives on a desk for any amount of time.

00:55:05 ◼   ► Yes, I know that there's a crud load of Mac laptops.

00:55:08 ◼   ► I know that most people probably use the onboard pointing device and keyboard.

00:55:12 ◼   ► But for those that have an iMac, those are almost certainly going to be Bluetooth.

00:55:17 ◼   ► So if they really hosed up a Bluetooth stack on OS X, I think we'd know it, and I think

00:55:21 ◼   ► we'd know it pretty quick.

00:55:22 ◼   ► What I've had that's been the most reliable, like the most frequent wireless accessory

00:55:27 ◼   ► that we use in our house that I've found to be more reliable than Bluetooth stuff like

00:55:30 ◼   ► say the Magic Trackpad, which I have now, and my non-Magic Trackpad, which I also have,

00:55:34 ◼   ► and my old Bluetooth keyboard, which I have, which I use with my iPad, which granted is

00:55:38 ◼   ► not OS X.

00:55:39 ◼   ► Anyway, is the little Logitech thing with the crazy little USB plug, you know, RF dongle

00:55:46 ◼   ► thing.

00:55:47 ◼   ► It's not Bluetooth, it's whatever Logitech's silly proprietary thing is.

00:55:49 ◼   ► silly proprietary thing, the batteries last forever and it always works and there are

00:55:55 ◼   ► no drivers to install.

00:55:56 ◼   ► And so I always think, Bluetooth, why can't you be like the stupid Logitech dongle?

00:56:00 ◼   ► Like what is it that they're doing?

00:56:01 ◼   ► Is it shorter range?

00:56:02 ◼   ► Is it just because it's non-standard?

00:56:04 ◼   ► Whatever the hell they're doing, you do that because it always works.

00:56:07 ◼   ► It never doesn't work.

00:56:10 ◼   ► It's very frustrating.

00:56:11 ◼   ► I understand there's probably technical issues involved and Bluetooth is a more sophisticated

00:56:13 ◼   ► protocol and they can do stuff like audio and it's not just, you know, sending mouse

00:56:16 ◼   ► positions, but Logitech, I bet when they were doing their products on it, it's like, "Oh,

00:56:20 ◼   ► Bluetooth is the next big thing.

00:56:22 ◼   ► You should really get on Bluetooth."

00:56:23 ◼   ► And I'm sure Logitech does make Bluetooth mice, but whoever said, "You know what?

00:56:26 ◼   ► No, we're going to stick with these stupid dongles," they were kind of right, because

00:56:30 ◼   ► those things always work.

00:56:31 ◼   ► I hate those stupid dongles with all my being.

00:56:33 ◼   ► Here again, I don't mind Bluetooth.

00:56:36 ◼   ► If Apple does kill the headphone jack in the next iPhone or in a iPhone, do they include

00:56:43 ◼   ► some sort of dongly adapter-y thing in the box, or do they include some sort of like

00:56:49 ◼   ► Bluetooth earbud sort of thing? I think they would include some sort of Bluetooth earbud

00:56:53 ◼   ► sort of thing, but what do you think, Marco?

00:56:56 ◼   ► - I would say neither. - You really think so?

00:56:58 ◼   ► - He's the pessimist. - Look, this is today's Apple. Let's be realistic

00:57:03 ◼   ► here. This is a way for them to make another 40 bucks on every sale. There is no way that

00:57:08 ◼   ► gets included in the box. No way. - I say there's no way they include Bluetooth

00:57:13 ◼   ► headphones because that is an upsell. That is an optional accessory. So you're not getting

00:57:16 ◼   ► Bluetooth headphones in the box, at least for the first version. Eventually, when wireless

00:57:20 ◼   ► becomes so pervasive that no one has the concept of plugging in a mouse or a keyboard or something,

00:57:24 ◼   ► eventually they may be. But for the first version, no. But I think they would include

00:57:28 ◼   ► the adapter for the same reason that they felt bad and included the MagSafe 1-2 adapter

00:57:33 ◼   ► in boxes for a million products for a really long time. I think they would include the

00:57:37 ◼   ► 2.5-inch adapter because for that first one…

00:57:40 ◼   ► That was a long time ago.

00:57:41 ◼   ► I know, but for that first one, I feel like they're gonna wanna do something to stem the

00:57:47 ◼   ► tide of angry people whose headphones don't work anymore.

00:57:49 ◼   ► So I think, and because that adapter would probably be super cheap and passive, that

00:57:53 ◼   ► they would put it in the box.

00:57:55 ◼   ► Right now.

00:57:57 ◼   ► No.

00:57:58 ◼   ► We'll find out.

00:58:00 ◼   ► We'll probably all live long enough to find out.

00:58:02 ◼   ► This one is not an infinite time scale.

00:58:04 ◼   ► I would not bet heavily on my thing that they're gonna include the adapter, because Marco's

00:58:08 ◼   ► right.

00:58:09 ◼   ► would totally be an Apple thing to do, but it's just such an easy thing to do to really help with

00:58:14 ◼   ► the initial impact of the initial anger over breaking people's headphones that it's so small

00:58:20 ◼   ► and so cheap, like the little MagSafe 1 to 2. It's the same situation, like, "Oh, we're breaking

00:58:24 ◼   ► people's things." In fact, I bet the MagSafe 1 to 2 adapter was more expensive to manufacture

00:58:29 ◼   ► than the Lightning to 3.5 would be. I mean, so the more likely thing... So part of the rumor on this

00:58:35 ◼   ► the Tumor site was that it would, the translation was kind of weird, saying like it would be

00:58:39 ◼   ► a special new Lightning port that would allow pass-through of audio. Because the thing is,

00:58:45 ◼   ► you can't just take the digital Lightning signal and have a passive adapter that just

00:58:50 ◼   ► moves pins around and wires that and suddenly becomes an amplified analog signal, like for

00:58:56 ◼   ► everyone. So the report seemed to suggest that what it would do would be that if you

00:59:02 ◼   ► if you plugged in these special new things

00:59:05 ◼   ► in the special new port that would be on these new devices,

00:59:07 ◼   ► that it would still be using the DAC and AMP in the phone,

00:59:11 ◼   ► but that it would be able to route those

00:59:13 ◼   ► over the Lightning port, only on this new phone.

00:59:16 ◼   ► That would then allow a relatively passive device

00:59:21 ◼   ► to be the headphone side of that.

00:59:23 ◼   ► - Yeah, you can't have an adapter if you don't do that.

00:59:25 ◼   ► - Well, you could.

00:59:26 ◼   ► - Unless you have a chip in the adapter,

00:59:28 ◼   ► like the stupid H.264 output thing

00:59:30 ◼   ► with the processor in it.

00:59:32 ◼   ► - Yeah, no, I think that's the alternative here.

00:59:34 ◼   ► The alternative would be that the adapter

00:59:36 ◼   ► would actually have a little USB DAC amp thing

00:59:38 ◼   ► right in there, which is totally possible and plausible.

00:59:41 ◼   ► - But they would not do that,

00:59:43 ◼   ► because just think of the Lightning connectors

00:59:45 ◼   ► where there's a chip in the thing.

00:59:46 ◼   ► There's only so small you can make anything

00:59:48 ◼   ► that involves a chip.

00:59:49 ◼   ► So then you've got this big, stiff thing

00:59:51 ◼   ► poking out of the bottom of your phone that is not good.

00:59:54 ◼   ► That is just not gonna happen.

00:59:55 ◼   ► I don't think they will ever ship a product that's like that.

00:59:57 ◼   ► - Right, so it is also, the third option here,

01:00:00 ◼   ► which is way more sensible and likely

01:00:02 ◼   ► than them shipping adapters in the box.

01:00:05 ◼   ► The way more likely explanation here

01:00:07 ◼   ► is that they would just,

01:00:08 ◼   ► they would wire the port in that way

01:00:10 ◼   ► so that Lightning devices made in this,

01:00:12 ◼   ► Lightning audio headphones made in this way

01:00:15 ◼   ► would work only on the port on the new devices

01:00:17 ◼   ► that's made for this.

01:00:18 ◼   ► So it wouldn't work on your old phones,

01:00:19 ◼   ► but they don't care.

01:00:20 ◼   ► And they would just give a version of the ear pods

01:00:24 ◼   ► that they ship now that just has a Lightning plug on the end

01:00:27 ◼   ► and they would include that in the box.

01:00:28 ◼   ► - Well, of course, that's what they ship the phone to.

01:00:30 ◼   ► with of course but I think it would also come with the adapter for your old headphones.

01:00:34 ◼   ► Like if you have a pair of Beats that has a 3.5 you're going to get the thing that's

01:00:37 ◼   ► going to come with plain old passive ear pods with a lightning connector in the end.

01:00:41 ◼   ► Yes of course, they're not going to be Bluetooth.

01:00:43 ◼   ► And then it will also come I think with a little tiny passive adapter.

01:00:46 ◼   ► And see that's the part I don't think they would do that these days, no.

01:00:50 ◼   ► They would charge at least 20 bucks for that.

01:00:52 ◼   ► Remember we were talking about the USB 3 speeds on the iPad Pro?

01:00:56 ◼   ► Do you remember that?

01:00:57 ◼   ► Yeah, yeah.

01:00:58 ◼   ► one of the things that was like showing the internals of what the port looks like on the

01:01:02 ◼   ► iFixit teardown or something they had like two extra contacts for the lightning port and people

01:01:07 ◼   ► were speculating that it was those two extra contacts to get the USB 3 speeds because USB 3

01:01:11 ◼   ► connector has more contacts than the lighting port has contacts that's why I talked about that

01:01:17 ◼   ► that blog that linked to saying you don't need even though the USB 3 thing has all those extra

01:01:22 ◼   ► parts you don't need them on lightning because USB 3 has dedicated ports for send receive at USB

01:01:26 ◼   ► two speeds and lightning wouldn't need that because it can repurpose the pins because

01:01:30 ◼   ► it's like a dynamic port or whatever.

01:01:32 ◼   ► So then what are the two extra contacts for?

01:01:34 ◼   ► Maybe they're for passive audio stuff or something like that.

01:01:38 ◼   ► Like the idea that you can get, that you can find a way to, without changing the physical

01:01:44 ◼   ► sort of shape and size of the lightning port, find a way to make that passive adapter that

01:01:49 ◼   ► you can just plug in 3.5 mm headphone jack into without a chip or any sort of DAC in

01:01:54 ◼   ► it's still just completely analog coming out.

01:01:58 ◼   ► That's something that could be done.

01:02:00 ◼   ► But again, I don't know.

01:02:01 ◼   ► Even with that type of thing, I'm like, "Really?

01:02:02 ◼   ► Do you want to do this now?

01:02:04 ◼   ► Or do you want to..."

01:02:06 ◼   ► I don't know what the solution is, long-term, to making it thinner, because now we're thinking

01:02:09 ◼   ► about USB-C. USB-C's not going to add pins for analog audio any time, so maybe that's

01:02:13 ◼   ► like the advantage of Lightning, and the reason Lightning will stick around for a long time,

01:02:16 ◼   ► because Apple can do stuff like this without consulting anybody else, and without worrying

01:02:20 ◼   ► about...

01:02:21 ◼   ► I wouldn't assume that Lightning is going away

01:02:24 ◼   ► in favor of USB-C on the devices

01:02:26 ◼   ► that currently have Lightning anytime soon.

01:02:28 ◼   ► In fact, as we see, Apple just keeps adding Lightning

01:02:30 ◼   ► to more devices.

01:02:31 ◼   ► The Apple could have made things like the smart trackpad

01:02:34 ◼   ► and keyboard and everything,

01:02:35 ◼   ► they could have made those charge over USB-C

01:02:37 ◼   ► and they didn't.

01:02:38 ◼   ► They made them charge over Lightning.

01:02:39 ◼   ► Like all the peripherals, the new input devices.

01:02:43 ◼   ► - Well, my new iMac doesn't even have a USB-C port

01:02:46 ◼   ► on the back of it, so they're dragging their feet

01:02:47 ◼   ► a little bit on USB-C, but yeah.

01:02:49 ◼   ► - Well, they could have given you a cable,

01:02:50 ◼   ► But I think the reason here is Apple is perfectly fine to support USB-C to interface with peripherals

01:02:57 ◼   ► from the rest of the world, but when it comes to their own devices, and their own devices

01:03:03 ◼   ► like the end of the plug they support, I think they're very happy to support Lightning

01:03:07 ◼   ► because it is theirs. And so not only does it have more abilities than USB-C that might

01:03:12 ◼   ► be useful to Apple, but again, they're making licensing money on each one of those things,

01:03:16 ◼   ► and they're controlling the standard and everything. I mean, that's everything Apple

01:03:19 ◼   ► wants, it's control plus money plus smallness.

01:03:21 ◼   ► I mean, that's Apple right there.

01:03:23 ◼   ► That is everything they want.

01:03:26 ◼   ► So they are not gonna abandon Lightning anytime soon.

01:03:28 ◼   ► I think they would skip USB-C entirely

01:03:31 ◼   ► for things like iPhones.

01:03:33 ◼   ► And because it's not really any smaller than Lightning,

01:03:36 ◼   ► is it, I mean, we're not meaningfully so.

01:03:38 ◼   ► I'm guessing that the phone has Lightning

01:03:42 ◼   ► longer than USB-C would be the thing it would move to.

01:03:47 ◼   ► - I'm still hoping that my next tube-shaped Mac Pro

01:03:51 ◼   ► will have along the back of it a ton of little ports

01:03:54 ◼   ► that look like USB-C but are really Thunderbolt 3.

01:03:57 ◼   ► - Oh yeah, and I think, honestly, I would love that,

01:03:59 ◼   ► and I think that's most likely the case,

01:04:01 ◼   ► although unfortunately that pushes out,

01:04:03 ◼   ► it's like next June, I think, but--

01:04:04 ◼   ► - I am nothing if not patient.

01:04:06 ◼   ► (laughing)

01:04:07 ◼   ► - That's true.

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01:06:08 ◼   ► So big actual confirmed legitimate news happened.

01:06:13 ◼   ► We were told at WWDC that Swift would be open-sourced by the end of the year.

01:06:18 ◼   ► And with not too much time to spare, Swift has been open-sourced.

01:06:23 ◼   ► I am genuinely impressed.

01:06:26 ◼   ► And the thing that impressed me most, which I didn't realize at first, was that the entire

01:06:31 ◼   ► commit history, as far as we can tell, was pushed to GitHub.

01:06:36 ◼   ► It wasn't just the initial commit dance,

01:06:38 ◼   ► which is what most people do.

01:06:40 ◼   ► It's probably what I would have done if I was Apple.

01:06:42 ◼   ► But you can actually see the evolution of Swift over time,

01:06:46 ◼   ► which is crazy to me.

01:06:49 ◼   ► I don't even know where to go from here,

01:06:50 ◼   ► but I feel like, John, after your Copeland 2010 bit,

01:06:53 ◼   ► let's start with you.

01:06:56 ◼   ► - Well, so the first thing I think is worth explaining

01:06:58 ◼   ► is what the hell does it mean to open source Swift?

01:06:59 ◼   ► How do you open source a programming language?

01:07:01 ◼   ► Isn't a programming language just like you read a book

01:07:03 ◼   ► and it tells you how the language works?

01:07:05 ◼   ► Like, what are they open sourcing?

01:07:06 ◼   ► Of course, they're not, you know, it doesn't make much sense to open source language, but

01:07:10 ◼   ► what they're open sourcing is a bunch of the things they use to implement the language.

01:07:13 ◼   ► So LLVM and Clang and those compilers are already open source, but the Swift compiler

01:07:19 ◼   ► and the Swift standard library and associated things written in Swift, that's what's being

01:07:23 ◼   ► open source.

01:07:24 ◼   ► So there's a website, Swift.org, that you can go to, which is sort of the gateway for

01:07:27 ◼   ► all this stuff.

01:07:28 ◼   ► Today, I was kind of sad to see that their site was hosed, that Swift.org was like really,

01:07:33 ◼   ► really slow.

01:07:34 ◼   ► You didn't get errors, but you just try to load anything on Swift.org and it would take

01:07:38 ◼   ► forever to get back to you.

01:07:39 ◼   ► So that's kind of embarrassing.

01:07:41 ◼   ► I think the snarky comment I made was like, "Maybe if this Swift open source project gets

01:07:44 ◼   ► some kind of wealthy corporate backer, they can afford better hosting."

01:07:47 ◼   ► Seriously, this is like the richest technology company in the world, and Swift.org was slow

01:07:53 ◼   ► today.

01:07:54 ◼   ► It makes me sad.

01:07:55 ◼   ► Anyway, I will yell more about Apple and their network stuff in a future show, I'm sure.

01:07:59 ◼   ► Really?

01:08:00 ◼   ► Yeah.

01:08:01 ◼   ► We keep pushing it down the notes with all the news, but it is there, and it's getting

01:08:04 ◼   ► worse and it's simmering so I will complain about it at some point.

01:08:09 ◼   ► But Swift.org, if you go look at the source code, will lead you to GitHub, which is the

01:08:12 ◼   ► first exciting thing that you would see about this.

01:08:14 ◼   ► Like GitHub?

01:08:15 ◼   ► Really?

01:08:16 ◼   ► Apple's not hosting it on their, you know, opensource.apple.com website where they host

01:08:19 ◼   ► all the Darwin source?

01:08:20 ◼   ► And that's exactly what Casey was talking about.

01:08:22 ◼   ► In the old days, you know, Apple has open source components and like, or even WebKit,

01:08:27 ◼   ► but going even back farther, Darwin, the core OS that's underneath OS 10 and iOS, has been

01:08:33 ◼   ► open source from the beginning and what would usually happen is Apple would come to some

01:08:40 ◼   ► conference, WWDC or in the old days Macworld and announce a new version of the OS and then

01:08:47 ◼   ► developers would develop for it and then they would ship that version of the OS to customers

01:08:51 ◼   ► and then you would wait days, weeks or months and then the open source version of the underlying

01:08:56 ◼   ► projects like oh here's the Darwin release for Mac OS X 10.4.

01:09:01 ◼   ► would only be released as one big blob well after the OS was already out.

01:09:06 ◼   ► sometimes it would be the gap wouldn't be that small but the bottom line is you

01:09:10 ◼   ► would get what Casey was saying it's like a big dump like okay you can go to

01:09:14 ◼   ► this open source site and see the source code and it just sits there until the

01:09:17 ◼   ► next time Apple comes along goes plop here's 10.4 plop here's 10.5 and they

01:09:22 ◼   ► would do the point releases too but it's not like they're showing you here's the

01:09:26 ◼   ► entire commit history of all the components of Darwin over their entire

01:09:31 ◼   ► development. You just get these these dumps and what it wasn't as I say

01:09:35 ◼   ► developed in the open right so certainly as they're working you know 10.5 is

01:09:39 ◼   ► plopped down on the site someone somewhere in Apple's working on 10.6 you

01:09:42 ◼   ► don't get to see that work to the open source components you're not gonna see

01:09:45 ◼   ► any part of 10.6 until 10.6 is out and then they show here by the way here's

01:09:49 ◼   ► the open source parts of 10.6 plop right WebKit was a little bit different in

01:09:54 ◼   ► that you could see what was going on because it wasn't

01:09:56 ◼   ► strictly an Apple project and it was developed kind of out

01:09:58 ◼   ► in the open, but they would do the same thing

01:10:00 ◼   ► where they would be like internally,

01:10:01 ◼   ► Apple is working on its next revision of Safari

01:10:04 ◼   ► with a new version of WebKit,

01:10:06 ◼   ► but they're not doing that work out in the open.

01:10:07 ◼   ► At some point, they're gonna plop down a big commit

01:10:11 ◼   ► to the latest version of WebKit.

01:10:13 ◼   ► And that's been getting better with WebKit,

01:10:14 ◼   ► but Swift is even more towards the actual model

01:10:17 ◼   ► that people do with open source projects

01:10:19 ◼   ► in terms of here's the whole history of the entire project

01:10:22 ◼   ► from the beginning.

01:10:23 ◼   ► All the committers have accounts on GitHub,

01:10:25 ◼   ► so you can see all the names attached to them,

01:10:27 ◼   ► and literally the whole, you can go back to 2010

01:10:28 ◼   ► and see the first commit, and just go through the history

01:10:31 ◼   ► of the entire Swift programming language

01:10:33 ◼   ► and see who did what, and look at the commit history

01:10:35 ◼   ► and who contributed the most code when.

01:10:38 ◼   ► The fun thing is you can go to a chart in GitHub

01:10:40 ◼   ► and see little graphs and stuff,

01:10:42 ◼   ► and what you can basically see is either the hire date

01:10:44 ◼   ► or the disclosure date of everyone working on Swift,

01:10:46 ◼   ► because in the beginning, it's just,

01:10:48 ◼   ► Latner is doing everything,

01:10:49 ◼   ► 'cause he's the only one who knows anything about it, right?

01:10:51 ◼   ► and then at a certain point a second person comes on,

01:10:53 ◼   ► then a third person, then a fourth person.

01:10:55 ◼   ► If it's not their hire date,

01:10:57 ◼   ► the time before is probably

01:10:58 ◼   ► when they didn't know the project existed

01:11:00 ◼   ► and they were disclosed on it and it's like,

01:11:01 ◼   ► oh, now they see,

01:11:02 ◼   ► so it's like revealing the history of the thing

01:11:04 ◼   ► and they're continuing to work on it in the open.

01:11:08 ◼   ► So much so that there's a roadmap on the site to say,

01:11:10 ◼   ► hey, we're gonna do Swift 2.2

01:11:12 ◼   ► and we're gonna do Swift 3.0

01:11:13 ◼   ► and here's what's planned for it

01:11:14 ◼   ► and here are the proposals

01:11:15 ◼   ► and here are the check-ins that are leading up to it.

01:11:17 ◼   ► So this is totally normal from the perspective

01:11:19 ◼   ► of any regular open source project, like, I don't know,

01:11:22 ◼   ► Apache or Python or whatever, but it is extremely novel

01:11:26 ◼   ► in terms of core technologies in Apple

01:11:28 ◼   ► to be actually real live developed

01:11:30 ◼   ► with a public bug tracker,

01:11:32 ◼   ► where you're seeing future development happening

01:11:34 ◼   ► in real time, they're doing things that are not yet released

01:11:37 ◼   ► in any Apple product and you're seeing them do them

01:11:39 ◼   ► and you can file bugs against them and stuff,

01:11:40 ◼   ► and you can see all the source code.

01:11:42 ◼   ► It is for long suffering Apple technology enthusiasts

01:11:47 ◼   ► a breath of fresh air.

01:11:48 ◼   ► It's really surprising.

01:11:50 ◼   ► And in the last couple of weeks, Apple as a whole has been getting a lot of flack about,

01:11:57 ◼   ► you know, the Mac App Store and potentially their plans for iPhone hardware.

01:12:01 ◼   ► I don't know if you guys heard anything about this headphone thing or not.

01:12:04 ◼   ► But this is really impressive, and this is very un-Apple-like.

01:12:09 ◼   ► And it was funny because earlier today I was listening to Material, which is a podcast

01:12:14 ◼   ► on Relay, about Google stuff.

01:12:15 ◼   ► they had their, you know, Google's VP of Design, whose name I will butcher if I try

01:12:19 ◼   ► to pronounce.

01:12:20 ◼   ► >> MATT: Matias Duarte?

01:12:21 ◼   ► >> CHAD P. WILLIAMS Yes. They—thank you—they had him on their

01:12:25 ◼   ► podcast. And granted, Schiller did go on the talk show, but you don't typically hear

01:12:30 ◼   ► these sorts of things happening with Apple, and this is a very open way of doing open

01:12:35 ◼   ► source, which is just really impressive. I don't know, Marc, you've been quiet so

01:12:37 ◼   ► far. What do you think?

01:12:38 ◼   ► >> MATT: I'm really happy to see this. I mean, you know, as much as I do complain about

01:12:43 ◼   ► things that Apple doesn't do well and does that are hostile to either customers or developers.

01:12:50 ◼   ► In reality, this is a really big move. This is a good move and this is way more open about

01:12:55 ◼   ► this stuff than I expected, for sure. Way more open than they really probably needed

01:13:00 ◼   ► to be and there's a number of things about this that I assume we're going to get to

01:13:04 ◼   ► where like when they first announced that, was it WWDC? When they first announced that

01:13:09 ◼   ► that Swift would be open sourced.

01:13:11 ◼   ► And I thought, and we talked about it back then,

01:13:14 ◼   ► and I said basically that I was reserving

01:13:17 ◼   ► any kind of enthusiasm about this

01:13:19 ◼   ► because I thought it was gonna be more like

01:13:22 ◼   ► how John was saying, more like they've done open source

01:13:24 ◼   ► in the past where it's just kind of like these dumps

01:13:27 ◼   ► and those aren't that useful for the most part.

01:13:30 ◼   ► And I also was concerned about,

01:13:33 ◼   ► I would absolutely love to only master one new language now

01:13:39 ◼   ► to cover both my app development and my web development,

01:13:43 ◼   ► because I don't like web development that much.

01:13:45 ◼   ► I'm not that into it.

01:13:46 ◼   ► I do web development as just a means to an end

01:13:51 ◼   ► to make the apps that I wanna make.

01:13:54 ◼   ► And I've been doing it in PHP for all these years,

01:13:57 ◼   ► and I just now started dipping my toe a little bit in Go,

01:14:00 ◼   ► but I'm not writing whole apps in Go,

01:14:01 ◼   ► I'm just making a few components in Go

01:14:04 ◼   ► that the big PHP app uses.

01:14:06 ◼   ► And I like Go a decent amount, but I don't think I like it

01:14:10 ◼   ► enough to build a whole new web app in it,

01:14:13 ◼   ► or like to port the whole app I have to it.

01:14:15 ◼   ► I don't plan to do that.

01:14:17 ◼   ► And Swift is not my perfect ideal language,

01:14:21 ◼   ► but it's pretty good.

01:14:22 ◼   ► You know, it looks pretty good.

01:14:24 ◼   ► And I know I'm gonna have to learn it

01:14:26 ◼   ► if I wanna keep being an Apple platform developer

01:14:28 ◼   ► for 10 years from now.

01:14:30 ◼   ► I'm gonna have to learn Swift,

01:14:31 ◼   ► and I'm going to do it at some point.

01:14:33 ◼   ► And so it would be nice if I could just learn Swift

01:14:36 ◼   ► and have that also work on the web for my future web needs.

01:14:40 ◼   ► And then I can finally stop using PHP

01:14:43 ◼   ► and use Swift everywhere and really get a nice deep

01:14:47 ◼   ► mastering of this one language and be able to share code

01:14:50 ◼   ► between them, be able to share my own utility libraries,

01:14:53 ◼   ► et cetera, share application level code,

01:14:55 ◼   ► and maybe some of the data layer stuff.

01:14:57 ◼   ► I would love that.

01:14:58 ◼   ► That didn't look like it was gonna happen before

01:15:00 ◼   ► because I was assuming that the open sourcing of Swift

01:15:03 ◼   ► would be similar to the old way

01:15:06 ◼   ► of just dumping things in.

01:15:07 ◼   ► And they didn't say anything about open sourcing foundation

01:15:11 ◼   ► or any of the APIs, and so we all, myself included,

01:15:14 ◼   ► just assumed that the only part that would be open source

01:15:16 ◼   ► would be the core of the language

01:15:18 ◼   ► with the handful of built-in types it has.

01:15:20 ◼   ► There would be effectively no libraries.

01:15:23 ◼   ► And that wouldn't be very useful.

01:15:25 ◼   ► Multiple people would have stepped in

01:15:26 ◼   ► to try to make their own standard libraries

01:15:29 ◼   ► and try to get themselves established

01:15:30 ◼   ► as the standard library, and it would have been a mess,

01:15:32 ◼   ► just like JavaScript frameworks,

01:15:33 ◼   ► it would have been a total mess.

01:15:35 ◼   ► But what has actually happened, they're outlining a plan

01:15:38 ◼   ► to actually convert Foundation to Swift and open source it

01:15:42 ◼   ► and include it in this package.

01:15:44 ◼   ► So, and I'm sure, you know, not every API

01:15:47 ◼   ► is gonna be available in this open source way,

01:15:49 ◼   ► but what this does is this gives people a way

01:15:52 ◼   ► to actually build, say, a web app that runs,

01:15:56 ◼   ► a web app backend that runs in Swift on a Linux server

01:16:01 ◼   ► and also runs on iOS where they could actually share

01:16:04 ◼   ► a meaningful amount of underlying code and libraries.

01:16:07 ◼   ► And that is really cool.

01:16:09 ◼   ► That I was not expecting at all.

01:16:11 ◼   ► And I'm really happy to see that.

01:16:12 ◼   ► 'Cause now that makes this interesting.

01:16:14 ◼   ► That makes this beyond just like an academic curiosity

01:16:19 ◼   ► of oh, maybe I could toy around and get, you know,

01:16:21 ◼   ► Darwin running on my Linux server.

01:16:23 ◼   ► No, this is like actually potentially useful

01:16:25 ◼   ► in the real world.

01:16:26 ◼   ► And no offense to Darwin.

01:16:28 ◼   ► (laughing)

01:16:29 ◼   ► - You know, like we knew that they were gonna do Linux,

01:16:31 ◼   ► though, 'cause they announced that at WWDC, right?

01:16:33 ◼   ► - We knew they would do Linux,

01:16:34 ◼   ► but we didn't know that there would be any libraries

01:16:37 ◼   ► beyond the built-in Swift types.

01:16:38 ◼   ► - Right, well, so when they said

01:16:40 ◼   ► they were gonna do a Linux, like that was the other,

01:16:41 ◼   ► you know, in between the slides

01:16:43 ◼   ► when they said they were gonna open source in the slide

01:16:44 ◼   ► when they put the word Linux on the screen,

01:16:46 ◼   ► what I was thinking was a reasonable fear was like,

01:16:49 ◼   ► no matter what you do with open sourcing,

01:16:52 ◼   ► that's well and good, but they're gonna open source

01:16:54 ◼   ► basically Swift so you can run it on Macs, right, on OS X,

01:16:59 ◼   ► right, 'cause there are OS ties to the whole thing.

01:17:00 ◼   ► So it's like, oh, well, great,

01:17:01 ◼   ► if you have a Mac, you can do it,

01:17:03 ◼   ► but it's gonna be useless on the server

01:17:04 ◼   ► because nobody uses Mac servers.

01:17:06 ◼   ► So it's a shame that even though Swift will be open source,

01:17:09 ◼   ► it's going to be up to the community to figure out

01:17:10 ◼   ► how the hell to get it to work on Linux.

01:17:12 ◼   ► And then two slides later, it's like,

01:17:13 ◼   ► "Oh, Linux, Apple's doing that part.

01:17:15 ◼   ► "Why would Apple do that part?"

01:17:17 ◼   ► Well, Apple has servers too, right?

01:17:19 ◼   ► And they're probably not running OS X at this point.

01:17:21 ◼   ► God, I hope they're not, right?

01:17:23 ◼   ► They have server-side stuff.

01:17:25 ◼   ► And why would Apple waste its time doing a Linux port?

01:17:29 ◼   ► And believe me, they would not do it

01:17:30 ◼   ► out of the goodness of their heart to say,

01:17:31 ◼   ► "See, it's really portable.

01:17:32 ◼   ► "Look, we did a Linux port," right?

01:17:33 ◼   ► They're doing it for themselves, and they eventually basically have the same needs as

01:17:38 ◼   ► Marco, which is like, well, it's great that we can run Swift on the server, but if we

01:17:42 ◼   ► want to share any significant amount of code between our client and our server, it would

01:17:45 ◼   ► be great to at least have Foundation.

01:17:46 ◼   ► You know what I mean?

01:17:47 ◼   ► That would be nice.

01:17:50 ◼   ► I suppose they could just bring the Objective-C runtime to Linux as well, if it's not already

01:17:54 ◼   ► there.

01:17:55 ◼   ► But what they chose to do instead, which I think is the most exciting thing, I knew they'd

01:17:59 ◼   ► have something like this to be able to run on Linux, because why the hell else would

01:18:01 ◼   ► Apple wants to use it for the same thing Marco wants to use it for, only on a much larger

01:18:06 ◼   ► scale, right? But what they did instead was tick the hardware over, which is like, we're

01:18:09 ◼   ► not going to use the Objective-C runtime on Linux and let you use Swift on Linux with

01:18:14 ◼   ► Foundation on Linux, with core Foundation in C and Foundation in Objective-C. They could

01:18:20 ◼   ► have done that and it would have worked fine. Instead, they have not done this yet, but

01:18:24 ◼   ► they are undertaking the effort to port Foundation to Swift. And they're doing it—you can look

01:18:28 ◼   ► at the source repository and see like all the empty implementations were like

01:18:31 ◼   ► not yet implemented but the you know the function is there this is one of the

01:18:34 ◼   ► projects they're doing and I don't know what kind of schedule it's on me I think

01:18:38 ◼   ► maybe they were saying by like 3.0 they would have the whole thing ported or

01:18:41 ◼   ► whatever so it's still gonna be core foundation straight C underneath the

01:18:45 ◼   ► covers that was already portable for the most port or core foundation light or

01:18:48 ◼   ► whatever had been open source and then on top of that they're gonna go from

01:18:52 ◼   ► from that point Swift all the way up so anything that used to be in foundation

01:18:57 ◼   ► it was Objective-C, they're re-implementing in Swift.

01:19:00 ◼   ► I'm still a little bit confused about how they're going to do Swift string versus NS

01:19:05 ◼   ► string and by the way, this is the other exciting thing about this, they're finally dropping

01:19:09 ◼   ► the NS prefix from all the Foundation stuff, they're taking this opportunity, this re-implementation

01:19:13 ◼   ► in Swift to drop all the NS's, which for people who don't know, it always cracks me up, I

01:19:18 ◼   ► was Googling this earlier to see when the NS was added, because I believe it was added

01:19:21 ◼   ► at some point in the history of Next, but NS stands for Next Step.

01:19:24 ◼   ► And so all these new Mac developers who have no idea what the hell Next is,

01:19:27 ◼   ► but really like programming this for months and going through tutorials and

01:19:30 ◼   ► whatever, going, why the hell are all the APIs being with NS?

01:19:34 ◼   ► Doesn't make any sense. I can't figure out what that means. Next step. Um,

01:19:37 ◼   ► but it's silly for it to be there and now it's the perfect opportunity to

01:19:40 ◼   ► remove it. So then how the hell do you distinguish between Swift dot string and

01:19:44 ◼   ► formerly NS string, which I guess would just become string. I mean,

01:19:48 ◼   ► you can understand for namespacing, like they would be,

01:19:50 ◼   ► they'll be distinguishable, but, and I know they're like, you know, uh,

01:19:54 ◼   ► bridge to each other like a zero cross bridge, you know, array and NS array and behind the

01:19:58 ◼   ► scenes and all that stuff, but it's potentially confusing.

01:20:00 ◼   ► So like am I using pure Swift with Swift strings or am I using Swift with foundation in Swift

01:20:06 ◼   ► with Swift used to be NS strings but are actually strings.

01:20:09 ◼   ► Anyway, I'm sure they'll work it out, but the bottom line is they're clearly not taking

01:20:13 ◼   ► the easy road here.

01:20:14 ◼   ► They're, you're not going to say they're leaving the Objective-C runtime behind because obviously

01:20:18 ◼   ► they're not because they've got bazillion lines of Objective-C code and that will be

01:20:21 ◼   ► maintained and enhanced for the future, obviously.

01:20:24 ◼   ► But the foundation, literally, the foundation of their programming language stack is going

01:20:30 ◼   ► to be written in Swift.

01:20:32 ◼   ► It's C core foundation, and then it's going to be Swift foundation, and then the Swift

01:20:37 ◼   ► standard library and all the Swift stuff on top of it.

01:20:39 ◼   ► So this is very exciting, and it's exciting not only that they're saying they're doing

01:20:44 ◼   ► this, this isn't done yet.

01:20:45 ◼   ► This is the type of thing like in the old Apple would not even announce that they're

01:20:48 ◼   ► doing this until the next WWDC.

01:20:50 ◼   ► They're telling you that they're doing it,

01:20:51 ◼   ► even though it's not done.

01:20:52 ◼   ► You can see how far they've gotten.

01:20:54 ◼   ► And like I said, they tell you what there's gonna be

01:20:55 ◼   ► in Swift 2.2, they tell you what you're gonna be

01:20:57 ◼   ► on Swift 3.0, they have a system whereby you can propose

01:21:00 ◼   ► things to be in Swift 3.1 or 4.0 and your proposals

01:21:03 ◼   ► can get accepted and incorporated and you can submit patches

01:21:05 ◼   ► and everything, it's actual open source development.

01:21:08 ◼   ► - Yeah, it's really cool.

01:21:10 ◼   ► And this makes me interested in learning the language

01:21:13 ◼   ► at some point soon.

01:21:15 ◼   ► I'm still not gonna jump on it like today or next week.

01:21:18 ◼   ► - Yeah, don't spend too much time learning

01:21:20 ◼   ► the plus plus and minus minus operator.

01:21:22 ◼   ► - Yeah. (laughs)

01:21:23 ◼   ► Yeah, but, and one thing that I probably will wait for

01:21:26 ◼   ► is that they mention that they are not,

01:21:30 ◼   ► so they talk about the goals for the big 3.0 release

01:21:33 ◼   ► that'll be in late 2016, which is, you know,

01:21:36 ◼   ► so a year from now, but they say that they're not going

01:21:38 ◼   ► to address concurrency primitives,

01:21:41 ◼   ► or you know, concurrency built-ins in the language

01:21:44 ◼   ► until after 3.0.

01:21:45 ◼   ► I think I do want to wait to really master the language until the concurrency story is

01:21:50 ◼   ► worked out, because that's pretty important.

01:21:51 ◼   ► You'll always have an excuse to wait.

01:21:53 ◼   ► No, no, no.

01:21:54 ◼   ► I'm saying to really master it.

01:21:55 ◼   ► I didn't say to start learning it or to start using it, but I do want to see how that shakes

01:21:59 ◼   ► out because that's kind of important in the modern environment.

01:22:01 ◼   ► I mean, that's, you know.

01:22:02 ◼   ► Well, that's why Go is going to be better for your server-side things, because Go is

01:22:05 ◼   ► already, like, you're using those features in Go and they're really handy.

01:22:08 ◼   ► And I mean, I guess you, like, what they're saying is, for now, this is a library thing.

01:22:12 ◼   ► Use lib dispatch, right?

01:22:13 ◼   ► Which is not terrible.

01:22:14 ◼   ► And you're already kind of familiar with it from using it in your existing apps.

01:22:18 ◼   ► Is libdispatch available?

01:22:19 ◼   ► I mean, it's because it's open source itself, right?

01:22:22 ◼   ► Yeah, I mean, basically, I think over there the exact text of the thing was they're saying,

01:22:27 ◼   ► for now, before we address this in the language, libraries are the answer.

01:22:31 ◼   ► So use pthreads, use libdispatch, use whatever the hell you want to use.

01:22:34 ◼   ► It's a library problem, not a language problem.

01:22:36 ◼   ► But Go decided that it's important enough to be part of the language, and it makes stuff

01:22:39 ◼   ► easier.

01:22:40 ◼   ► It's going to be, because when you mention like, oh, you know, like writing a server-side

01:22:44 ◼   ► web framework equivalent to your PHP one or even equivalent to the simple servers you're

01:22:48 ◼   ► doing in Go, there's a lot of library work that if Apple has done it, we're not seeing

01:22:52 ◼   ► it yet.

01:22:53 ◼   ► And so it's up to the community to actually do that part of it, I think.

01:22:57 ◼   ► So in Under the Radar #2, Ewan_ talked about basically, "Meh, we'll get there when we

01:23:02 ◼   ► get there."

01:23:03 ◼   ► And now it sounds like you're kind of rethinking that.

01:23:07 ◼   ► makes it being open source make it so much more appealing to you? Because you're not

01:23:11 ◼   ► about to be contributing, you know, pull requests or anything like that. So why does it being

01:23:16 ◼   ► open source suddenly change your opinion?

01:23:18 ◼   ► >> Well, because now mastering Swift now has more value to me, because now there's a chance

01:23:24 ◼   ► that I can use it on the server side as well. And there's now a roadmap in site where that

01:23:30 ◼   ► is looking likely and plausible and potentially very good. So that's the big reason. Now,

01:23:37 ◼   ► It isn't just, oh, just learn how to do everything

01:23:40 ◼   ► I've already been doing on the same platform

01:23:42 ◼   ► with no possible other impact besides just, you know,

01:23:46 ◼   ► the language's built-in benefits,

01:23:48 ◼   ► which I don't care that strongly about yet.

01:23:51 ◼   ► Now, it's also, you know,

01:23:53 ◼   ► I need to learn a better website language, I really do.

01:23:57 ◼   ► I am constantly hitting PHP's limits,

01:23:59 ◼   ► and I'm constantly running into problems with it

01:24:03 ◼   ► whenever I do new development,

01:24:05 ◼   ► And it's not that I, you know, it's not that, you know,

01:24:07 ◼   ► PHP is constantly crashing or anything,

01:24:09 ◼   ► but it seems like it's on shaky ground.

01:24:11 ◼   ► That, you know, I've expressed before that I just don't,

01:24:13 ◼   ► I don't need to convince people why I don't like PHP.

01:24:16 ◼   ► That I don't really believe that its leadership

01:24:19 ◼   ► is taking it in good directions.

01:24:20 ◼   ► Not like it ever has, but, you know,

01:24:22 ◼   ► it's finally starting to affect me.

01:24:24 ◼   ► But anyway, so I want to get off PHP

01:24:29 ◼   ► sooner rather than later, but I also don't think Go

01:24:33 ◼   ► is the answer necessarily.

01:24:35 ◼   ► Like it's good enough for now, but I'm still looking

01:24:37 ◼   ► for a better overall web language to switch to,

01:24:40 ◼   ► and I don't think it's gonna be,

01:24:41 ◼   ► I don't think Go's gonna end up being it.

01:24:43 ◼   ► For this to potentially step into that role,

01:24:45 ◼   ► then this gives me a really big reason to learn Swift.

01:24:49 ◼   ► Not to mention the code sharing benefits.

01:24:52 ◼   ► If I can have, if I can have like the model layers

01:24:56 ◼   ► shared between like say Overcast and its web component,

01:25:00 ◼   ► stuff like that, there's a lot of benefits

01:25:02 ◼   ► to having that kind of code sharing potential.

01:25:04 ◼   ► and even simple things.

01:25:06 ◼   ► Like right now, the main reason why

01:25:10 ◼   ► the Overcast web interface does not have playlists

01:25:13 ◼   ► is because I don't wanna have to port the code

01:25:17 ◼   ► that the playlists use to order themselves,

01:25:20 ◼   ► which is a very complicated piece of just a C code.

01:25:22 ◼   ► I don't wanna port that to PHP

01:25:24 ◼   ► because it's gonna be a massive amount of work

01:25:27 ◼   ► to get it right and it's gonna be buggy

01:25:28 ◼   ► and I don't want, it's just not worth it.

01:25:31 ◼   ► If I can, you know, there's opportunities like that

01:25:33 ◼   ► where like, oh, if I could just do the same thing

01:25:34 ◼   ► both sides, that would be a much more easily solved problem. So, you know, I'm looking

01:25:40 ◼   ► forward to a future where I can just master one, because that's my style. My style is

01:25:45 ◼   ► not to learn 60 different languages and to have a shallow proficiency in each of them.

01:25:50 ◼   ► My style is to really master one thing and use it forever, use it until everyone's making

01:25:55 ◼   ► fun of me for using it and then finally switch. So that's what got me here and I think I would

01:26:01 ◼   ► love for Swift to be the next language to do that with, and this now shows me that that

01:26:06 ◼   ► has a good chance of being possible.

01:26:07 ◼   ► Plus you can make your own web framework in Swift because there won't be one. Well, there

01:26:11 ◼   ► probably will be one pretty soon, but yeah.

01:26:13 ◼   ► Well, there are already a couple, but yeah.

01:26:15 ◼   ► I know, but like now, based on the new foundation and based on all the new stuff, like that

01:26:19 ◼   ► wasn't part of Apple's open source dump. It's like, "And by the way, here's what we're using

01:26:22 ◼   ► for our server-side Swift," because Apple is surely using server-side Swift, and how

01:26:25 ◼   ► they're incorporating it, I'm not sure, but there is no equivalent to, you know, whatever

01:26:30 ◼   ► your favorite web framework, or even equivalent--

01:26:32 ◼   ► I don't think there's even an equivalent

01:26:34 ◼   ► to the simple server port listening stuff that's

01:26:36 ◼   ► in the Go standard libraries, is there?

01:26:38 ◼   ► No, absolutely not.

01:26:40 ◼   ► No, I mean, is the networking stuff even ported yet?

01:26:43 ◼   ► Well, yeah, but just the network.

01:26:45 ◼   ► But you need something like coroutines or an event-driven

01:26:47 ◼   ► loop, or you need something to handle processing more

01:26:50 ◼   ► than one request at once.

01:26:51 ◼   ► You know what I mean?

01:26:53 ◼   ► Anyway, yeah, so there is an opportunity

01:26:56 ◼   ► for people who want to do something potentially

01:27:00 ◼   ► dramatic and something that has a big footprint and a big effect.

01:27:04 ◼   ► The first person to make a really good web framework in server-side Swift will have the

01:27:09 ◼   ► attention of everybody who's in the same situation as Marco, which is I've got an iOS app and

01:27:14 ◼   ► I would love to be able to share the faceless components between the server and the client.

01:27:19 ◼   ► I don't want to have to think about all the crap about running a server, listening to

01:27:22 ◼   ► a port, dispatching based on URLs and stuff.

01:27:24 ◼   ► I want a fairly simple but reliable, fast framework to do that for me.

01:27:29 ◼   ► If someone makes one, I will use it.

01:27:30 ◼   ► Because you just want to plug in your model code.

01:27:32 ◼   ► You don't want to deal with request routing and parsing

01:27:34 ◼   ► HTTP headers and crap like that.

01:27:37 ◼   ► Yeah, ideally, that should all be handled

01:27:39 ◼   ► by any modern framework.

01:27:41 ◼   ► There's no reason for web programmers

01:27:43 ◼   ► to be doing that stuff manually anymore.

01:27:45 ◼   ► Yep.

01:27:45 ◼   ► And PHP, the standard library, handles it

01:27:47 ◼   ► and Go has standard library functions and things like that.

01:27:50 ◼   ► But Swift, that's the gap in Swift functionality.

01:27:52 ◼   ► A couple more points that we'll probably continue this topic

01:27:55 ◼   ► in future shows, but we don't want

01:27:56 ◼   ► to drag this one out too long.

01:27:57 ◼   ► and the topic of Apple being more open,

01:28:01 ◼   ► Craig Federighi, who I figured what,

01:28:03 ◼   ► he's like the head of all software at Apple,

01:28:04 ◼   ► I don't know what his title is,

01:28:05 ◼   ► he is making the rounds to the websites.

01:28:08 ◼   ► I saw him interviewed at Ars Technica,

01:28:10 ◼   ► I think he talked to, I don't know,

01:28:12 ◼   ► maybe the Nextweb or a bunch of other websites

01:28:14 ◼   ► that read reviews where Craig Federighi

01:28:16 ◼   ► talked to a bunch of websites

01:28:18 ◼   ► about the Swift Open Source Project.

01:28:19 ◼   ► When has that happened?

01:28:20 ◼   ► That is definitely a new Apple thing,

01:28:21 ◼   ► like that they send out one of their guys

01:28:24 ◼   ► to make the rounds of the, relatively speaking,

01:28:27 ◼   ► you know, dinky little websites.

01:28:29 ◼   ► Like, you know, you'd see Steve Jobs go on CNN or something

01:28:34 ◼   ► and talk to the Wall Street Journal and the New York Times,

01:28:36 ◼   ► but that's it.

01:28:37 ◼   ► But now, Craig Federighi is talking to the,

01:28:40 ◼   ► I guess the second tier websites.

01:28:42 ◼   ► - Yeah, the tech press.

01:28:44 ◼   ► - Yeah.

01:28:45 ◼   ► - Well, 'cause CNN doesn't wanna hear

01:28:46 ◼   ► about open source Swift basically,

01:28:47 ◼   ► but no, this is great.

01:28:49 ◼   ► - Yeah, I think this is a great, I mean, you know,

01:28:51 ◼   ► he's going and he's saying the same things

01:28:53 ◼   ► to every different website or whatever,

01:28:54 ◼   ► but it is, I don't know, it just makes me feel better

01:28:57 ◼   ► of like, yeah, see what you can do Apple,

01:28:59 ◼   ► just like regular PR.

01:29:00 ◼   ► In some ways Apple was,

01:29:01 ◼   ► I always looked on them as interesting and special

01:29:03 ◼   ► because they didn't do regular PR.

01:29:04 ◼   ► Like every other company,

01:29:05 ◼   ► anything they do that they think is even remotely important,

01:29:07 ◼   ► they're like a proud little child.

01:29:08 ◼   ► See what I made?

01:29:09 ◼   ► See, look, see, look at this,

01:29:10 ◼   ► put it on the refrigerator, right?

01:29:11 ◼   ► And Apple would just be like, we say nothing.

01:29:13 ◼   ► We talk to you this number of times a year,

01:29:15 ◼   ► everything else we do,

01:29:16 ◼   ► maybe there's a press release on our site,

01:29:17 ◼   ► but we're not gonna talk to you.

01:29:19 ◼   ► Just reblog our press release, like, or don't,

01:29:21 ◼   ► we don't care, like whatever.

01:29:22 ◼   ► But now they're actually saying,

01:29:24 ◼   ► hey, we've got Craig Federighi here,

01:29:25 ◼   ► you want to talk to him? He wants to talk to you about open-source Swift. Hey, like

01:29:28 ◼   ► to the tech websites. And so that's just weird and god I think that the

01:29:33 ◼   ► websites don't even know how to handle it. Like a lot of these websites are not

01:29:37 ◼   ► accustomed to interviewing an executive and then writing an article based on

01:29:42 ◼   ► that interview with Apple executives because it's like so do I just transcribe

01:29:47 ◼   ► exactly what they said even though their sentence doesn't quite make sense or do

01:29:50 ◼   ► I clean it up a little bit but then will they be afraid I'm misquoting them and

01:29:53 ◼   ► So some of them, it seems like awkward.

01:29:55 ◼   ► It's like, "Oh, I didn't think you'd actually show up.

01:29:58 ◼   ► "Is this really you?

01:29:59 ◼   ► "I guess let's talk about Swift for five minutes

01:30:02 ◼   ► "and then I'll write something about it.

01:30:03 ◼   ► "This is totally weird."

01:30:04 ◼   ► So it definitely feels weird.

01:30:07 ◼   ► I mean, it wouldn't be weirder

01:30:08 ◼   ► if it was Chris Latner talking to everybody,

01:30:11 ◼   ► but Craig Federighi makes sense.

01:30:13 ◼   ► He's the head of the whole software department,

01:30:15 ◼   ► and he's gonna tell you why Apple is open-source in Swift

01:30:17 ◼   ► and why it's a good idea.

01:30:18 ◼   ► So I'll put a link to the "Ars" article,

01:30:19 ◼   ► but you can see a bunch of other things around,

01:30:21 ◼   ► and this is definitely a glasnost, I guess,

01:30:25 ◼   ► is the appropriate Cold War metaphor for this.

01:30:28 ◼   ► So I thought that was exciting

01:30:30 ◼   ► and I hope to see more of that.

01:30:32 ◼   ► Like, you know, do it every time, every single thing you do,

01:30:34 ◼   ► but Oberyn's Army Swift is significant

01:30:36 ◼   ► and a lot to send out an emissary, essentially.

01:30:38 ◼   ► - Our final sponsor tonight is Harry's.

01:30:41 ◼   ► Go to harrys.com and use promo code ATP

01:30:43 ◼   ► to save $5 off your first purchase.

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01:32:41 ◼   ► - We only have one more thing to add about Swift

01:32:43 ◼   ► for this show.

01:32:44 ◼   ► We're gonna talk more about open source Swift

01:32:45 ◼   ► for the next show, I'm sure,

01:32:46 ◼   ► 'cause we just put a big dividing line

01:32:47 ◼   ► in the notes about it.

01:32:48 ◼   ► But the one thing we forgot to mention

01:32:50 ◼   ► is what license is this?

01:32:51 ◼   ► What open source license is it?

01:32:53 ◼   ► And it is the Apache 2.0 license,

01:32:55 ◼   ► with a special exception to not require you

01:32:58 ◼   ► to open source stuff that you build

01:33:00 ◼   ► into like a single library or something

01:33:01 ◼   ► that happens to start to pull in some of the Swift runtime,

01:33:04 ◼   ► then it's saying that you don't have to open source that one.

01:33:06 ◼   ► It's okay that if you bind with the Swift standard library or whatever, it doesn't mean

01:33:11 ◼   ► that you have to suddenly open source your whole application.

01:33:13 ◼   ► So it's a very permissive license, it's not GPL because Apple's a commercial company and

01:33:17 ◼   ► they would never do GPL because it is intentionally viral and Apple doesn't like the virality

01:33:22 ◼   ► of that particular, of the constraints enforced by the GPL.

01:33:26 ◼   ► So I think for the most part, no one is surprised by the license, and for the most part, the

01:33:31 ◼   ► expected people are happy about it and the expected people aren't happy about it.

01:33:34 ◼   ► is a fun, this is actually for the next week, I think we can mention it briefly, this is

01:33:39 ◼   ► a thing with a lot of open source projects where where you put the source code isn't

01:33:44 ◼   ► necessarily the same place where you want people to file bugs.

01:33:47 ◼   ► So GitHub, like many places that you can put source code for, also has what they call an

01:33:51 ◼   ► issue tracker, which is basically a bug tracker.

01:33:54 ◼   ► But Apple of course has its own bug tracker called Radar, and Swift does not use the issue

01:33:59 ◼   ► tracker on GitHub.

01:34:01 ◼   ► It has its own website, it's like bugs.swift.org, and I think that's where they want you to

01:34:05 ◼   ► file the bugs, unless they want you to file a radar.

01:34:07 ◼   ► It's a little bit confusing.

01:34:08 ◼   ► I guess you'd start at Swift.org and eventually you'd be led to the right place.

01:34:10 ◼   ► But the bottom line is, on GitHub, you can't, I think, add issues, but you can issue pull

01:34:16 ◼   ► requests.

01:34:17 ◼   ► So someone immediately made a pull request to change the license to like GPL or something,

01:34:20 ◼   ► and then a million people trolled the thread with animated GIFs and stuff.

01:34:24 ◼   ► So we'll put that link in the show notes as well, so you can enjoy looking at the first

01:34:29 ◼   ► trolling pull request on GitHub for Swift.

01:34:31 ◼   ► And of course it has to do with the license,

01:34:33 ◼   ► which as far as I'm concerned, I don't care about.

01:34:36 ◼   ► I think they picked the right license for their purpose

01:34:38 ◼   ► and it's fine, but other people do care about it.

01:34:40 ◼   ► And so there you have it.

01:34:43 ◼   ► - All right, any other thoughts before next week?

01:34:45 ◼   ► We're just gonna hold for then?

01:34:48 ◼   ► - Yeah, we're gonna hold more.

01:34:49 ◼   ► There's more to talk about and we'll probably go more

01:34:51 ◼   ► in depth in the same topics for next week.

01:34:53 ◼   ► And hopefully by next week we'll know more about this.

01:34:56 ◼   ► - Yeah, 'cause this week, as we record this,

01:34:57 ◼   ► We only have something like four hours of knowledge

01:35:01 ◼   ► of this so far.

01:35:02 ◼   ► So yeah, we'll see what happens.

01:35:04 ◼   ► All right, overall, good week.

01:35:06 ◼   ► We still have our headphone jack

01:35:07 ◼   ► and Swift had a lot of good stuff, so I'm happy.

01:35:10 ◼   ► Thanks a lot to our three sponsors this week,

01:35:12 ◼   ► Harry's, Warby Parker, and Cards Against Humanity,

01:35:15 ◼   ► and we will see you next week, or hear you next week,

01:35:17 ◼   ► or speak to you.

01:35:18 ◼   ► You ruined my phrase.

01:35:19 ◼   ► - Just keep saying it the same way

01:35:21 ◼   ► you've always been saying it, it works fine.

01:35:22 ◼   ► - You will hear us next week.

01:35:24 ◼   ► - No, don't say that, that's terrible.

01:35:26 ◼   ► - What?

01:35:27 ◼   ► say and we will see you next week. You had a thing. It's a thing. People need repetition

01:35:33 ◼   ► of familiar phrases and beats in the story structure that is our podcast to feel at home.

01:35:39 ◼   ► Don't mess with it.

01:35:40 ◼   ► Good grief.

01:35:41 ◼   ► And we'll see you next week.

01:35:43 ◼   ► Now the show is over, they didn't even mean to begin