ATP

00:00:00 ◼   ► Was looking at something and then it jumped away. Is that the kind of experience you want to provide me?

00:00:04 ◼   ► Paul loft said that there is actually a term just like there is for everything in business like parking lot and

00:00:11 ◼   ► Aug or staff aug or whatever the hell we're gonna talk about for the concept. I think I described on an earlier show

00:00:18 ◼   ► people in middle management are

00:00:21 ◼   ► motivated to

00:00:22 ◼   ► Make things that are bad not sound quite as bad when they talk to their boss because if you're telling your bass boss bad news

00:00:28 ◼   ► Your boss will be like, "Well, why is this bad news happening?

00:00:30 ◼   ► Isn't the reason we pay you to make bad things not happen?"

00:00:34 ◼   ► And so as it goes up the management chain, say you start with the truth down at the leaf

00:00:38 ◼   ► nodes, by the time it gets to the CEO, what is a disastrous problem doesn't sound so bad.

00:00:43 ◼   ► And the term for that is green shifting, which is a play on red shifting, just like the galaxies

00:00:47 ◼   ► are racing away from us and the wavelengths of light coming from stretch towards the red

00:00:50 ◼   ► side of the visible light spectrum, so all the galaxies or stars and stuff are red shifted.

00:00:55 ◼   ► Green shifting is how things get nicer as they go up the org chart.

00:00:59 ◼   ► So that's a great term.

00:01:00 ◼   ► I had not heard it before.

00:01:02 ◼   ► But it's a real thing.

00:01:03 ◼   ► I had not heard that either.

00:01:05 ◼   ► I never heard it.

00:01:07 ◼   ► You can use green shifting.

00:01:09 ◼   ► Your org chart at home isn't quite deep enough.

00:01:11 ◼   ► Maybe when Hopps does something terrible outside, like rolls in something gross, when you report

00:01:16 ◼   ► it to Adam, you can say, "Oh, Hopps just got a little dirty."

00:01:19 ◼   ► And then when Adam reports it to Tiff, she's at the top of the org chart, by the way.

00:01:22 ◼   ► had a report that said, "Hops had fun outside," and then voila, "Hops eating cat poo had

00:01:28 ◼   ► been green-shifted." That honestly pretty much happens like that, I think. That really

00:01:34 ◼   ► is very plausible of a situation to happen and how it would be communicated in our household.

00:01:38 ◼   ► All right, what did Rafael write in? Oh, this is an interesting take on something

00:01:43 ◼   ► that we talked about last episode about, you know, what can Apple do about software quality

00:01:47 ◼   ► and having like snow leopard releases where you just work on bugs and stuff and the concept

00:01:52 ◼   ► of yearly releases came up.

00:01:54 ◼   ► And what I was arguing was like, it's really arbitrary if you're a disciplined software

00:01:58 ◼   ► organization as Apple has become in these last few years.

00:02:01 ◼   ► All you're doing is changing the discipline from like working on something until it's

00:02:06 ◼   ► done, but just sticking to a schedule and saying what is in and what is out for that

00:02:10 ◼   ► schedule and anything that's out gets pushed to the next release and so on and so forth,

00:02:14 ◼   ► and that's fine.

00:02:15 ◼   ► And Rafael gave the example that I should have thought of that is true for a lot of

00:02:21 ◼   ► the software we use today, instead of doing fewer releases,

00:02:26 ◼   ► how about doing more releases, as in continuous release,

00:02:28 ◼   ► kind of like Chrome or these other browsers

00:02:30 ◼   ► that they call Evergreen, they're sort of like

00:02:32 ◼   ► mandatory auto updating, and you don't really care

00:02:35 ◼   ► what the version is, like none of us know offhand

00:02:37 ◼   ► what Chrome version we're on, we're on whatever

00:02:38 ◼   ► the latest is, and Chrome updates all the time,

00:02:40 ◼   ► and it updates whenever the hell it feels like it.

00:02:43 ◼   ► If instead of having yearly releases and saying,

00:02:46 ◼   ► well, that's too much of a rush, make them two year,

00:02:49 ◼   ► get rid of the whole concept of like this big important release that's worthy of a press

00:02:54 ◼   ► release and bullet points and instead just do small incremental changes all the time.

00:02:58 ◼   ► I think Jeff Atwood had an article about this a couple years ago called "The Infinite Version"

00:03:03 ◼   ► but it's basically the same thing that most people are familiar with from the world of

00:03:05 ◼   ► web browsers where version stops mattering and it's just the software exists and it continuously

00:03:11 ◼   ► updates itself and hopefully gets better and that's a different mindset where you're making

00:03:18 ◼   ► lots of small changes, which are easier to make, and the consequences of screwing it

00:03:22 ◼   ► up are smaller, because then you're sure you know what it is screwed it up.

00:03:26 ◼   ► Like if you made one small change and all of a sudden there was some huge performance

00:03:30 ◼   ► regression and some DOM operation like happened with Chrome 43 recently, you know what change

00:03:36 ◼   ► did that, and you can, A, you have the option of just rolling it back, because it's just

00:03:40 ◼   ► one small change from the previous version, and B, you have a better chance of fixing

00:03:44 ◼   ► it because you know exactly what small thing it was.

00:03:46 ◼   ► So if you make a series of small changes over time,

00:03:48 ◼   ► it's potentially better for your customers

00:03:51 ◼   ► and also better for you in terms of knowing

00:03:55 ◼   ► what you've done to screw things up.

00:03:56 ◼   ► So I kind of like this idea

00:03:57 ◼   ► and looking at the software that we use,

00:04:00 ◼   ► more and more of it, I mean, just think of iOS

00:04:02 ◼   ► where you started to do updates, apps manually,

00:04:05 ◼   ► then they became auto updating.

00:04:07 ◼   ► We're not quite at the infinite version

00:04:08 ◼   ► for all software available,

00:04:10 ◼   ► but moving away from like what I would call

00:04:12 ◼   ► marketing releases, where the only reason

00:04:13 ◼   ► have a big thing, it's kind of like a tradition or a holdover from when you bought things

00:04:19 ◼   ► in cardboard boxes, and of course there had to be a big deal because you'd have to put

00:04:22 ◼   ► a new set of cardboard boxes with new art on the cover.

00:04:25 ◼   ► Doing yearly digital releases is really just kind of a holdover from that, and it seems

00:04:30 ◼   ► like the trend is away from that and more towards continuous releases, and I'm intrigued

00:04:35 ◼   ► by this idea and I like to subscribe to this newsletter.

00:04:40 ◼   ► The upside, I said they're only doing these regular releases for marketing purposes, but

00:04:44 ◼   ► marketing is not nothing.

00:04:47 ◼   ► If Apple was to move to a continuous release cycle for major products, that means it gives

00:04:52 ◼   ► up the perk of being able to make grand announcements at WWDC or at some kind of press conference

00:04:59 ◼   ► where they invite the press out to show them something.

00:05:02 ◼   ► You can't get that anymore.

00:05:03 ◼   ► You don't get the big bump in the press.

00:05:04 ◼   ► You don't get the "Apple Today" announce, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.

00:05:07 ◼   ► Maybe they get that less with software than hardware, but there is a downside to this.

00:05:13 ◼   ► And part of the reason Apple keeps doing these marketing releases is because it's worth it

00:05:17 ◼   ► to them to get the extra hype and publicity and get people excited and seem to make significant

00:05:24 ◼   ► progress.

00:05:25 ◼   ► That's a lot of what we love about Apple.

00:05:26 ◼   ► It's like one day they appear and they say, "Hey, we've got this great idea.

00:05:29 ◼   ► And look at this new thing."

00:05:30 ◼   ► And we go, "Ooh, look at the new thing."

00:05:32 ◼   ► If we got that same thing in 700 steps, you know, instead of in one big bang, it's less

00:05:39 ◼   ► impressive even though we end up at the same spot.

00:05:40 ◼   ► So I think that definitely has to be a factor.

00:05:43 ◼   ► I still think it's worth it, but that's a calculus they'd have to do internally if they

00:05:47 ◼   ► ever wanted to move to this type of system for software release.

00:05:50 ◼   ► All right.

00:05:52 ◼   ► And Eric Michaels-Over had some interesting thoughts on iPhone battery thinness.

00:05:56 ◼   ► Yes.

00:05:57 ◼   ► So last week we were talking about the battery case, and I of course complained, as I always

00:06:01 ◼   ► that the iPhone battery life is not good enough.

00:06:03 ◼   ► And one of the theories presented was

00:06:05 ◼   ► that maybe the battery case was kind of like

00:06:07 ◼   ► Apple filling out the market for a little more info

00:06:11 ◼   ► on whether people really do want more battery life

00:06:13 ◼   ► in their iPhones in order to inform future decisions

00:06:16 ◼   ► about the iPhone designs.

00:06:18 ◼   ► And our friend Eric Michael Zuber wrote in to point out

00:06:20 ◼   ► that by this time, the iPhone 7 is almost certainly

00:06:23 ◼   ► already completely done and designed.

00:06:26 ◼   ► The new iPhone battery case is a signal

00:06:28 ◼   ► that the battery life for the iPhone 7

00:06:29 ◼   ► will probably be the same or worse

00:06:31 ◼   ► than the iPhone 6 and 6s. If Apple had waited until the inevitably thinner iPhone 7 were

00:06:35 ◼   ► released next year to introduce a battery case, the press would have jumped on them

00:06:39 ◼   ► saying it proved battery life in the iPhone 7 to be inadequate. Now if Apple releases

00:06:43 ◼   ► a new battery case for the iPhone 7, Apple battery cases will be old news because they

00:06:47 ◼   ► of course just released this one for the iPhone 6. In other words, this is the first Apple

00:06:51 ◼   ► battery case, not the last. So that's, that, all that from our friend Eric Michael Zuber,

00:06:55 ◼   ► I think that is pretty much on point. I think he's almost certainly right that the 7 is

00:06:59 ◼   ► almost certainly done or close enough to done that they wouldn't be making major changes

00:07:04 ◼   ► to things like how large the battery is because that's a pretty major physical change to a

00:07:08 ◼   ► design. I'm guessing this is maybe not quite planned out quite that well but more like

00:07:16 ◼   ► the battery case seems like a band-aid solution. It seems like something that Apple did not

00:07:20 ◼   ► expect maybe even one year ago to be making and releasing now but that they identified

00:07:27 ◼   ► a problem slash opportunity and made it to address that.

00:07:31 ◼   ► But I think he's right that they probably are not going

00:07:34 ◼   ► to be meaningfully addressing battery life in the iPhone 7.

00:07:37 ◼   ► And if they were, they probably wouldn't have released this

00:07:39 ◼   ► because the iPhone 7's gonna be out in, you know,

00:07:42 ◼   ► what, seven or eight months, nine months?

00:07:44 ◼   ► So Apple's very patient.

00:07:47 ◼   ► And so if they were really gonna address this problem

00:07:49 ◼   ► in the iPhone 7 and give us a big chunk

00:07:51 ◼   ► of battery life improvement, they probably wouldn't release

00:07:54 ◼   ► a battery case today, or at least it would make it

00:07:57 ◼   ► a lot less likely that they would. So I think he's right, and I think we're going to have

00:08:01 ◼   ► to live with it. That people who want more battery power are either going to go to the

00:08:05 ◼   ► plus or just use external battery cases or battery packs.

00:08:09 ◼   ► Lewis: This theory only works if you assume Apple is the only company in the world that

00:08:12 ◼   ► makes iPhone accessories. Battery cases have been a thing forever. Like I said, there is

00:08:17 ◼   ► no additional weight for Apple making a battery case that Apple is saying. They sell battery

00:08:22 ◼   ► cases in their stores. People use them all the time. It's a thing. Apple is just making

00:08:26 ◼   ► one of them because it finally got around to making one of them.

00:08:28 ◼   ► Of course the iPhone 7 is going to be thinner.

00:08:31 ◼   ► Of course it's going to be.

00:08:33 ◼   ► That's the way it goes, right?

00:08:34 ◼   ► And it's predicting that the battery life will be similar.

00:08:37 ◼   ► Well, it's been similar for many years now, so that's not a big surprise either.

00:08:41 ◼   ► I just don't make the leap all the way to therefore releasing this early is a way to

00:08:45 ◼   ► avoid appearing to say that the iPhone 7 doesn't have good battery life.

00:08:49 ◼   ► It's going to have the same as the 6 and the 6s within a small margin of error, and yeah,

00:08:54 ◼   ► going to be thinner because that's what Apple does with iPhones. I think it's just status

00:08:58 ◼   ► quo and a lot of people are pointing out also that like saying, "Oh, Apple makes a battery

00:09:02 ◼   ► case that will let them know more information about who buys battery cases." But if they

00:09:06 ◼   ► sell them in their stores, they already have that information. So they could be charting

00:09:10 ◼   ► the battery cases that they sell themselves from third parties just as well as they can

00:09:14 ◼   ► be charting their own. So I think Apple has a pretty good feel of who wants a battery

00:09:18 ◼   ► case and what sizes are the most popular and it just made one for the same reason.

00:09:24 ◼   ► It makes a leather case and a silicone case and cases for your iPads and all the other

00:09:30 ◼   ► accessories they make because it's things that people want to buy and Apple will make

00:09:33 ◼   ► one for you and you can buy it from them.

00:09:35 ◼   ► And their margins are probably better than anyone else's because they get good pricing

00:09:39 ◼   ► on parts and they charge like $10 or $20 more bucks than everyone else for their little

00:09:42 ◼   ► logo.

00:09:43 ◼   ► It is also worth considering, you know, the rumors are getting pretty strong. There's

00:09:48 ◼   ► a lot of smoke and even some evidence now that there will be a new 4-inch iPhone design

00:09:54 ◼   ► soon. We don't know how soon. Maybe it's in the spring, maybe it's in the fall, who

00:09:57 ◼   ► knows. It doesn't matter that much, to be honest. But there is certainly a lot of smoke

00:10:03 ◼   ► by these rumors, so there is very likely to be fire here. This is very likely to be a

00:10:07 ◼   ► real thing that is happening, and it makes a lot of sense for them to make a new 4-inch

00:10:10 ◼   ► phone. If the rumors are true, the 4-inch phone will have the approximate internals

00:10:15 ◼   ► of the iPhone 6s. Now, if you look at any kind of battery life graph for the iPhones,

00:10:23 ◼   ► there was actually a noticeable jump from the 5s to the 6. And we saw this for years

00:10:29 ◼   ► beforehand with Android phones that were all bigger than all the iPhones. That when you

00:10:33 ◼   ► make a big phone, you have room for more battery. The reason why the 6 Plus gets more battery

00:10:38 ◼   ► life is because it has a battery that's something like 50% larger than the 6 because there's

00:10:42 ◼   ► room for it without making it too obscenely thick or too weirdly heavy for its proportional

00:10:49 ◼   ► size.

00:10:50 ◼   ► And it outruns the screen. Like the screen got bigger too and the screen takes more power,

00:10:53 ◼   ► but the more battery outruns the more screen. So the bigger you make it, the more the battery

00:10:58 ◼   ► wins.

00:10:59 ◼   ► Exactly. So it does look very likely there will be a 4-inch phone, but if we follow that

00:11:05 ◼   ► advantage now then backwards back to making four inch phones again a

00:11:08 ◼   ► four inch phone with Apple's current

00:11:11 ◼   ► priorities for thinness and and the expectation like the 5s is way thicker than the 6 and the 6 still has more battery life than

00:11:19 ◼   ► It just because of that of you know the ratio of the volume now

00:11:21 ◼   ► They're not going to make a new four inch phone. That's as thick as the 5s again. It would of course be thinner

00:11:27 ◼   ► It would probably be more like the iPod touch or even not that then but because of radios

00:11:32 ◼   ► videos, but it would probably be more like the 6s thickness, but just in a smaller body.

00:11:38 ◼   ► That small 4-inch phone, assuming it's real and assuming it's coming out soon, and assuming

00:11:42 ◼   ► it has the guts of a 6s, would probably get pretty mediocre battery life. Even worse than

00:11:47 ◼   ► the 6s, I would guess.

00:11:49 ◼   ► Well, there's a, I mean the other tool that they have at their disposal, which they've

00:11:51 ◼   ► been leveraging, is make the stuff inside the phone take less power. So, one thing is

00:11:56 ◼   ► obviously if they do, you know, another process shrink on the main system on a chip, that's

00:12:02 ◼   ► savings there. The other rumor that I've been reading about, probably not for the iPhone

00:12:06 ◼   ► 7, but it's a thing to think about for the future, is moving to OLED for the screens,

00:12:10 ◼   ► which is another power savings. And you have to think, what is left that's taking power

00:12:13 ◼   ► in the phones? Well, there's send and receive for the cell signal, which I'm not entirely

00:12:18 ◼   ► sure how much you can do about that, because at a certain point you have to have a signal

00:12:21 ◼   ► of a certain strength just to talk to the towers and stuff. So there's that, there's

00:12:25 ◼   ► the screen, and there's the increasingly small number of chips on the thing, most dominated

00:12:31 ◼   ► by the system on a chip and maybe I guess the RAM.

00:12:34 ◼   ► And so you get your biggest bang for the buck

00:12:37 ◼   ► of making the screen take less power,

00:12:39 ◼   ► making the system on a chip take less power.

00:12:40 ◼   ► And that's what Apple has always been doing over time.

00:12:43 ◼   ► And so that is their tool to perhaps eventually outrun

00:12:48 ◼   ► getting thinner over time, right?

00:12:54 ◼   ► So far they've just been kind of like on this knife's edge.

00:12:56 ◼   ► And I think you're right that they're not gonna make

00:12:59 ◼   ► the four inch one as big as the 5S

00:13:01 ◼   ► and therefore it will probably get worse.

00:13:02 ◼   ► Certainly it will get worse battery life

00:13:04 ◼   ► than the 6, 6S size phone.

00:13:05 ◼   ► Certainly that.

00:13:06 ◼   ► Will it get worse than the 5S?

00:13:08 ◼   ► Well it's gonna have a way more power efficient system

00:13:10 ◼   ► on a chip than the 5S did.

00:13:12 ◼   ► But then again, I don't know.

00:13:13 ◼   ► They could underclock it.

00:13:14 ◼   ► They have tools at their disposal

00:13:16 ◼   ► to essentially pick the battery life.

00:13:18 ◼   ► But I don't think it's crazy to say

00:13:19 ◼   ► that the smaller phone is gonna get less,

00:13:22 ◼   ► is gonna have lower battery life just in general.

00:13:24 ◼   ► - Right, and that also, if you assume all this to be true

00:13:27 ◼   ► that we are speculating on here,

00:13:29 ◼   ► That also is more explanation why Apple would want to get into the battery case market now

00:13:34 ◼   ► and kind of get prepared for it.

00:13:36 ◼   ► And then when they release a new iPhone 6 minus or whatever, whenever they release this

00:13:42 ◼   ► new small phone, then Apple already makes battery cases and this is a thing that you

00:13:48 ◼   ► can do.

00:13:49 ◼   ► If you need more battery life than what we offer, it isn't a design flaw.

00:13:53 ◼   ► You could just buy this accessory that we make for this phone that will be smart and

00:13:56 ◼   ► right there available at launch time.

00:13:58 ◼   ► So I think it makes a lot of sense,

00:14:00 ◼   ► looking at the most likely reasons

00:14:03 ◼   ► why they made this battery case.

00:14:05 ◼   ► And as we said last week,

00:14:07 ◼   ► and as other people have pointed out,

00:14:09 ◼   ► and especially our friend John Gruber,

00:14:11 ◼   ► it really is not a terrible product.

00:14:13 ◼   ► It's just a little bit weird,

00:14:14 ◼   ► and it's not that great to look at,

00:14:17 ◼   ► and it has a few questionable design aspects to it,

00:14:19 ◼   ► but the functionality of it, everyone says,

00:14:22 ◼   ► seems to be pretty decent.

00:14:23 ◼   ► On that note, I wanna do a quick bit of follow-up

00:14:26 ◼   ► On my Sola memo case that I ordered during last week's show on an impulse buy, I actually

00:14:31 ◼   ► got a chance to use it for a few days over the last week.

00:14:35 ◼   ► And first of all, it's not MFI certified.

00:14:37 ◼   ► So what that means is that Apple has not given it the "Made for iPhone" stamp of approval.

00:14:43 ◼   ► It basically means that Apple has not certified it to be compatible and safe and everything

00:14:48 ◼   ► else to use with iPhones.

00:14:49 ◼   ► So there's some risk involved here.

00:14:52 ◼   ► And if I were using a case every single day,

00:14:55 ◼   ► I might reconsider using one that was not MFI certified.

00:14:58 ◼   ► And it's weird, like the lightning connector

00:15:01 ◼   ► on the inside that it uses to plug into the phone,

00:15:03 ◼   ► it's obviously like not a real Apple lightning plug.

00:15:06 ◼   ► This is obviously like a knockoff.

00:15:08 ◼   ► In every way, it's a knockoff.

00:15:11 ◼   ► That's one of the reasons why it is shaped

00:15:14 ◼   ► unlike any other iPhone connector I've ever seen,

00:15:16 ◼   ► where in the way it kind of like,

00:15:18 ◼   ► it kind of like moves the lightning port down

00:15:20 ◼   ► So it charges through lightning and it has no chin.

00:15:24 ◼   ► It's the only battery case I've found that has no chin.

00:15:27 ◼   ► Not even Apple manages to do that,

00:15:28 ◼   ► but there's probably some good reason why

00:15:31 ◼   ► within the MFI spec other people can't do that

00:15:33 ◼   ► and be MFI certified.

00:15:34 ◼   ► Probably something about how much stress it can take

00:15:37 ◼   ► or what kind of design it has to have

00:15:38 ◼   ► or how much thickness something has to be or something.

00:15:40 ◼   ► Overall, it is surprisingly thin and light.

00:15:44 ◼   ► It is not as thin as the Apple leather case or anything.

00:15:48 ◼   ► you do notice that it does add thickness,

00:15:51 ◼   ► but it doesn't add a lot of size.

00:15:53 ◼   ► And so it actually feels pretty good to use.

00:15:55 ◼   ► It does not feel intrusive in the pocket.

00:15:57 ◼   ► It's almost like an iPhone 3G/3GS plastic.

00:16:01 ◼   ► Feels pretty good to grip in the hand.

00:16:03 ◼   ► It is dumb though.

00:16:04 ◼   ► Like so, trying another battery case

00:16:07 ◼   ► has made me now appreciate what Apple says

00:16:09 ◼   ► when they call theirs the smart battery case.

00:16:12 ◼   ► You know, this one, you have to turn it on

00:16:15 ◼   ► and turn it off manually.

00:16:16 ◼   ► It does not turn itself off when the phone reaches 100%,

00:16:20 ◼   ► or when it's down to zero, whatever.

00:16:23 ◼   ► It doesn't do anything smart.

00:16:24 ◼   ► It is literally just like you manually apply power

00:16:27 ◼   ► to your phone when you feel like it,

00:16:29 ◼   ► and then you turn it off when you feel like

00:16:31 ◼   ► your phone has charged enough.

00:16:33 ◼   ► So it is dumb, it is cheap, it is not MFI certified.

00:16:37 ◼   ► That being said, it does work, it is really small,

00:16:40 ◼   ► and it is really light, and it feels good in the hand.

00:16:42 ◼   ► So I think I'm gonna bring it to conferences and stuff

00:16:44 ◼   ► for the next nine months or so until the next phone comes out,

00:16:47 ◼   ► and asked me again how it is after WVDC.

00:16:50 ◼   ► - Yeah, we'll check your pockets for smoke

00:16:51 ◼   ► while you're not packing up.

00:16:52 ◼   ► - Yeah. (laughing)

00:16:53 ◼   ► No, I mean, the first time I charged it,

00:16:55 ◼   ► I was intentionally doing it during a long car ride

00:16:58 ◼   ► the other day so that I could feel if it was getting too hot,

00:17:01 ◼   ► like I could feel it easily.

00:17:02 ◼   ► - Yeah, this is the best place to have a fire

00:17:04 ◼   ► as a moving car, you're right, that was a good plan.

00:17:06 ◼   ► - Yeah, yeah, totally.

00:17:07 ◼   ► So anyway, yeah, not terrible.

00:17:10 ◼   ► I would say for 50 bucks, it is reasonably priced,

00:17:13 ◼   ► And I wouldn't necessarily recommend it

00:17:16 ◼   ► just because I'm a little scared

00:17:17 ◼   ► that because it is not certified

00:17:19 ◼   ► and because it is very knock-offy,

00:17:21 ◼   ► I'm a little scared of what it might do to someone's phone,

00:17:23 ◼   ► but I'm willing to take the risk on my own phone.

00:17:25 ◼   ► So that's its usefulness.

00:17:27 ◼   ► And I think I would rather carry this than the 6 Plus

00:17:31 ◼   ► because I've determined the 6 Plus

00:17:33 ◼   ► to be too large for me most of the time.

00:17:35 ◼   ► I would rather carry this than the 6 Plus.

00:17:37 ◼   ► We'll see what happens with the 7 Design.

00:17:38 ◼   ► - And would you bring this instead of your little

00:17:42 ◼   ► pocket thing with the little attached USB cable,

00:17:45 ◼   ► you know, your little pocket battery thing?

00:17:48 ◼   ► - The pocket battery thing is gonna have a much longer life

00:17:51 ◼   ► because the pocket battery thing is gonna work

00:17:53 ◼   ► with the iPhone 7 and this won't.

00:17:54 ◼   ► You know, that one, and that one's also half the price

00:17:57 ◼   ► and a little more capacity, up in 3,000 milliamp hours.

00:18:00 ◼   ► That's the volt ready, something ultra slim,

00:18:02 ◼   ► something something with a built-in lightning cable,

00:18:04 ◼   ► which is awesome.

00:18:05 ◼   ► You know, that one's 25 bucks.

00:18:06 ◼   ► I still, I would, and that one I think is MFI certified,

00:18:09 ◼   ► so I would definitely recommend that one

00:18:10 ◼   ► if you're looking for one to buy.

00:18:11 ◼   ► But if you want an actual battery case

00:18:14 ◼   ► and not a separate thing that you have to carry around

00:18:16 ◼   ► and occasionally plug into your phone,

00:18:18 ◼   ► this is a decent case.

00:18:19 ◼   ► But if you're gonna be using it that rarely,

00:18:21 ◼   ► I might even say go with Apple just because

00:18:24 ◼   ► it's officially supported and a little bit smarter.

00:18:26 ◼   ► But I don't regret buying it for my very limited needs

00:18:29 ◼   ► out of a battery case 'cause usually I don't use a case,

00:18:32 ◼   ► a battery case, and for the few weeks a year

00:18:35 ◼   ► that I really want one, this'll probably be fine.

00:18:38 ◼   ► But if you're gonna use it every day,

00:18:39 ◼   ► I would say maybe get an MFI certified one.

00:18:42 ◼   ► - Yeah, that sounds like a smart idea.

00:18:43 ◼   ► Alright, why don't you tell us about something

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00:20:57 ◼   ► - All right, so what are we really talking about tonight?

00:21:00 ◼   ► Do you wanna talk about how the Apple TV

00:21:02 ◼   ► is making no money for app developers,

00:21:03 ◼   ► like every other app store on the platforms.

00:21:06 ◼   ► (laughing)

00:21:07 ◼   ► Actually, no, no, no, let me try that again.

00:21:10 ◼   ► Would you like to talk about the challenges

00:21:12 ◼   ► that are facing Apple TV developers?

00:21:14 ◼   ► I'm trying to take a more positive spin on this.

00:21:17 ◼   ► So let's talk about this.

00:21:19 ◼   ► - This is something that, you know, in recent weeks,

00:21:22 ◼   ► we've been very critical of some stuff Apple has done.

00:21:24 ◼   ► I have heard all year from people calling me out

00:21:27 ◼   ► for being too negative about Apple and everything,

00:21:30 ◼   ► and we've gotten a little bit of that with the whole show.

00:21:32 ◼   ► It's been a lot on me, though.

00:21:33 ◼   ► And that's fair, 'cause I have been very negative

00:21:35 ◼   ► about Apple, and I wanted to kind of explain

00:21:38 ◼   ► a little bit about why.

00:21:39 ◼   ► So this Tux Arcade article that came out

00:21:41 ◼   ► about two weeks ago, editor's note,

00:21:43 ◼   ► "The Popular Games in the Apple TV App Store

00:21:45 ◼   ► "Making $100 a Day or Less, A Worrying Trend Appears."

00:21:48 ◼   ► And the whole article is, I mean, it's pretty ranty,

00:21:52 ◼   ► and it isn't all fair criticism,

00:21:55 ◼   ► but there is a lot of fair criticism in it.

00:21:58 ◼   ► And I think it's worth considering for both Apple,

00:22:02 ◼   ► not that they will care or read it,

00:22:04 ◼   ► but for both Apple and for Apple developers like us,

00:22:07 ◼   ► it is worth considering some of these things

00:22:08 ◼   ► and kind of how that relates to Apple negativity.

00:22:12 ◼   ► And there was also a really good episode

00:22:14 ◼   ► of Control Walt Delete, which is a podcast

00:22:18 ◼   ► with Neil A. Patel and Walt Mossberg.

00:22:20 ◼   ► There was an episode, I think this week,

00:22:22 ◼   ► I'll link to it in the show,

00:22:23 ◼   ► and it's about kind of like being disappointed

00:22:26 ◼   ► with modern tech and kind of being burnt out

00:22:28 ◼   ► on like where modern tech is going

00:22:30 ◼   ► and whether we're in a slow period of true innovation.

00:22:35 ◼   ► And so I think all this combines with what I perceive

00:22:40 ◼   ► with Apple's current problems of just,

00:22:43 ◼   ► there's a lot of stuff that's at a 1.0 state,

00:22:47 ◼   ► or that's being pretty clearly neglected for a long time.

00:22:52 ◼   ► I think what has happened is we had such massive years

00:22:57 ◼   ► of advancement over the last decade.

00:23:00 ◼   ► so much advancement, even the last two decades really, there's been so much advancement in

00:23:04 ◼   ► computing, so much advancement in the web, in phones, in apps, and how we compute, what

00:23:09 ◼   ► we compute on, all the various options we have, how good the hardware is, how good the

00:23:14 ◼   ► software is, how good the services are. We have made tremendous strides. But I think

00:23:19 ◼   ► over the last, I don't know, three to five years, I think we have picked so much of the

00:23:26 ◼   ► low-hanging fruit already in technology. That yes, there are things we can keep doing to

00:23:35 ◼   ► keep making things better and to keep uncovering new ground, but I think it's getting harder.

00:23:40 ◼   ► And the number of asterisks that you have to accept on everything seems to be getting

00:23:46 ◼   ► larger. Because again, we've done so much of the easy stuff already, and that's not

00:23:51 ◼   ► to say there isn't anything left to do, but I think the gains are going to be harder

00:23:56 ◼   ► to get. So for example, if we narrow this down, this is obviously a big sprawling feeling

00:24:00 ◼   ► that's hard to nail down. So let me focus it down for now to the Apple product line.

00:24:04 ◼   ► We are now at the point where the hardware is so capable that we are mostly just limited

00:24:10 ◼   ► by like dumb physical attributes. How big are we willing to make the thing so that we

00:24:16 ◼   ► can have a screen that's big enough to see or touch or keyboard that's big enough to

00:24:19 ◼   ► actually use. I think what we're seeing is like once we start pushing these boundaries

00:24:25 ◼   ► of well, what if we want to do more on our iPads? Or what if we want to make our laptops

00:24:30 ◼   ► even smaller and even lighter? What if we want to compute on our wrist? We keep having

00:24:35 ◼   ► to add these asterisks. Like, in order to compute on our wrist, we had to have this

00:24:39 ◼   ► weird little computer with this weird interface on it that can do some things but is really

00:24:44 ◼   ► slow and is kind of nice for some things but has to work over Bluetooth which is really

00:24:47 ◼   ► unreliable and there's all this weird stuff. What we see with laptops is, oh, well, you

00:24:52 ◼   ► wanted to push it so small and so light and so thin that now it has to be really slow

00:24:56 ◼   ► and we have to get rid of all the ports which do occasionally come in handy and also the

00:25:00 ◼   ► keyboard has to be this really controversial, very ultra-thin design that has a lot of problems

00:25:05 ◼   ► for a lot of people. And with the iPad Pro, this is this amazing device for people who

00:25:10 ◼   ► do productive work on their iPad, but it's so big that you kind of can't hold it like

00:25:16 ◼   ► you used to hold an iPad and you might not be able to do a lot of things that other iPads

00:25:21 ◼   ► can do very easily with it because it's so big.

00:25:23 ◼   ► And so we're starting to hit these areas in which

00:25:26 ◼   ► we're just hitting trade-offs left and right.

00:25:28 ◼   ► Like everything has asterisks on it,

00:25:30 ◼   ► everything has exceptions.

00:25:33 ◼   ► In the olden days we would have a smaller number

00:25:35 ◼   ► of more generalized products.

00:25:38 ◼   ► You know, you would have a Mac.

00:25:40 ◼   ► And whether you got like an iBook or a Power Mac G5,

00:25:44 ◼   ► they could do roughly the same kinds of things.

00:25:47 ◼   ► It would just like, you know, how fast do you want it,

00:25:48 ◼   ► how much space do you need, that kind of stuff.

00:25:51 ◼   ► Now we're getting these products that are differentiated

00:25:55 ◼   ► not by minor spec details like that,

00:25:58 ◼   ► but by massive differences in how they can be used,

00:26:01 ◼   ► what they can do, what they can't do,

00:26:03 ◼   ► or what they're really difficult to do with.

00:26:07 ◼   ► And so it just seems like we're fragmenting everything.

00:26:10 ◼   ► In the process we're starting a lot of things

00:26:12 ◼   ► with weird 1.0s, we are ignoring a lot of other things

00:26:16 ◼   ► 'cause it's too much to manage.

00:26:18 ◼   ► We're kind of ignoring the old and boring stuff.

00:26:20 ◼   ► So there is a lot being lost here,

00:26:23 ◼   ► and now it's to the point where people have to struggle

00:26:25 ◼   ► to figure out how to do basic things

00:26:27 ◼   ► on the newest hardware that we have

00:26:29 ◼   ► that we were able to do on computers years ago

00:26:31 ◼   ► because the newest hardware is so much better

00:26:32 ◼   ► in certain ways that it's really compelling

00:26:34 ◼   ► to carry or to use or whatever.

00:26:35 ◼   ► I feel like we are now at a point where

00:26:39 ◼   ► there are so many trade-offs being made

00:26:42 ◼   ► to achieve what we think is next,

00:26:44 ◼   ► to achieve where we wanna go next

00:26:46 ◼   ► or the kind of hardware we wanna be carrying around

00:26:49 ◼   ► using, there are so many trade-offs now that in a lot of ways a lot of things are just

00:26:54 ◼   ► getting worse or more cumbersome or more complicated or kind of less baked.

00:27:00 ◼   ► And we're seeing weird products like these weird laptop/tablet hybrids that are trying

00:27:05 ◼   ► to cross these lines and kind of not doing a great job of it oftentimes.

00:27:11 ◼   ► And I don't know, it feels like there's a lot of weirdness in the product line.

00:27:16 ◼   ► There's a lot more saying no to things you can do

00:27:20 ◼   ► with these products rather than like,

00:27:22 ◼   ► as I said before, you go buy a computer

00:27:24 ◼   ► and anything you can do in the world of computing

00:27:26 ◼   ► you can do on a computer before.

00:27:28 ◼   ► Now that's no longer the case.

00:27:29 ◼   ► In the early days of smartphones,

00:27:30 ◼   ► you go and you buy the iPhone

00:27:32 ◼   ► and you have the best smartphone, period.

00:27:33 ◼   ► Like that was it.

00:27:34 ◼   ► Now it isn't so simple anymore.

00:27:36 ◼   ► Now do you also want an iPad or not?

00:27:38 ◼   ► Do you also want a watch or not?

00:27:41 ◼   ► There's so much variation now

00:27:44 ◼   ► and in some ways that's good.

00:27:45 ◼   ► you can specialize, you can make amazing hardware

00:27:47 ◼   ► for certain roles, but in so many other ways,

00:27:50 ◼   ► we are forced to make all these trade-offs

00:27:53 ◼   ► that we didn't have to make before.

00:27:54 ◼   ► And anyway, this is all very long and rambling,

00:27:57 ◼   ► but getting back to it, the reason why I keep

00:28:00 ◼   ► criticizing stuff when I feel that it's warranted,

00:28:04 ◼   ► that when I feel like it's important,

00:28:06 ◼   ► is because this is like where I do everything.

00:28:09 ◼   ► This is my life, this is my hobby, this is my work,

00:28:12 ◼   ► this is my career, I do everything.

00:28:15 ◼   ► everything I do, I do with Apple products,

00:28:17 ◼   ► with my computer, with my phone, with all this stuff.

00:28:21 ◼   ► When anything about them gets worse,

00:28:23 ◼   ► or when the future of them gets called into question,

00:28:26 ◼   ► I don't wanna go to desktop Linux or Windows.

00:28:29 ◼   ► This is where I get my work done.

00:28:31 ◼   ► So I get very defensive of them,

00:28:32 ◼   ► and when I see Apple spreading themselves very thin,

00:28:37 ◼   ► trying to do all these different things

00:28:39 ◼   ► to try to figure out what the next version of computing is,

00:28:42 ◼   ► so that they can dictate that and own that

00:28:45 ◼   ► and figure that out.

00:28:47 ◼   ► I'm sitting here with my version of computing

00:28:49 ◼   ► that has worked great for decades

00:28:51 ◼   ► and I get a little defensive of it.

00:28:54 ◼   ► And I get worried when the stuff I use

00:28:56 ◼   ► becomes less reliable or less good or stops working

00:28:59 ◼   ► at the expense of trying to push forward

00:29:02 ◼   ► this new world here that I think is really trying to like,

00:29:09 ◼   ► I don't know, it's like trying to extract oil shale.

00:29:12 ◼   ► You know, it's like we pumped all the easy oil

00:29:14 ◼   ► back forever ago, now we have to get all this weird oil

00:29:17 ◼   ► out of shale and stuff.

00:29:19 ◼   ► I don't know, this is a very long and rambly argument.

00:29:21 ◼   ► I should just cut this entire thing.

00:29:22 ◼   ► What do you guys think?

00:29:23 ◼   ► I mean, is there anything to what I'm saying here

00:29:25 ◼   ► or am I just totally lost or old?

00:29:27 ◼   ► - I think you need a new thought technology, as they say.

00:29:30 ◼   ► (laughing)

00:29:32 ◼   ► Not a new one, it's a thought technology

00:29:34 ◼   ► we all already have, it just needs to be applied

00:29:35 ◼   ► in a new context and this is going more meta

00:29:39 ◼   ► maybe you are, but if you ever find yourself thinking or saying a thing that you know that

00:29:48 ◼   ► people have been thinking or saying for the entire recorded history of humanity, it doesn't mean that

00:29:52 ◼   ► you're wrong or that you're right, but it does mean that you have to remember to sort of check

00:29:59 ◼   ► yourself by saying, "All right, I know," just to give an example, "I know for a fact that people

00:30:07 ◼   ► are always saying to kids these days that every generation thinks that the kids are

00:30:10 ◼   ► like lazier than they are, right? And that when I was a kid I learned how to, you know,

00:30:14 ◼   ► do Latin in school and the kids these days don't and whatever, like, we all know that, right? And

00:30:20 ◼   ► so if we ever find ourselves saying, you know, "Is it true? Am I out of touch?" No, it's the

00:30:25 ◼   ► children who are wrong. If we find ourselves saying that, it's because we know that people

00:30:31 ◼   ► always say that. We check ourselves and say, "Okay, it doesn't mean that I'm wrong. It could be

00:30:35 ◼   ► that the kids these days do have a problem and or whatever but I have to be really really skeptical

00:30:40 ◼   ► when I have that feeling because there's a reason everyone always has that feeling because everyone

00:30:44 ◼   ► gets old and they see the kids and kids do things differently than they do and they think the kids

00:30:48 ◼   ► are lazy and and not as good as they were and should and they had it harder than the kids do

00:30:52 ◼   ► you know what I mean like we all know that one there is an equivalent you know repeating thought

00:30:57 ◼   ► or historical fact or sort of feeling about the world in lots of different contexts and you Marco

00:31:03 ◼   ► I think I've hit on one of them, which is computing used to be simpler.

00:31:07 ◼   ► We had PCs, and even in the smartphones, we had smartphones, and there was one of them,

00:31:10 ◼   ► and it was the best one, and whatever trade-offs were inherent in that device, it didn't matter,

00:31:15 ◼   ► because there was no other iPhone you could get, because that was the iPhone.

00:31:19 ◼   ► And PCs were general purpose, and there was a long period of time where the PCs just got

00:31:22 ◼   ► faster and better, and they got more memory, more CPU, more disk, and laptops got smaller,

00:31:27 ◼   ► but not so small that they started to have size compromises, and they got faster and

00:31:31 ◼   ► better and you know from black and white to color screens and like it was just such a

00:31:35 ◼   ► logical normal progression and part of the reason it seemed normal was because we were

00:31:39 ◼   ► in the age when things are changing like we were growing up during that time and anything

00:31:42 ◼   ► that happens when you're growing up you know it's the old saying I think it's Douglas Adams

00:31:45 ◼   ► or somebody over like whatever technology exists when you're born you think is normal

00:31:49 ◼   ► whatever technology is invented before you're 30 you think is great and anything invented

00:31:53 ◼   ► after you're 30 you think is an embalming unnatural abomination right so that feeling

00:31:58 ◼   ► you're getting is totally real. But because everybody always has that feeling, every generation

00:32:04 ◼   ► before has that feeling about everything, whether it's the automatic transmission or

00:32:07 ◼   ► the wheel or the horseless carriage or television versus radio or radio versus going to the

00:32:13 ◼   ► theater or the mass is not in Latin anymore or whatever it is, or the amazing variety

00:32:19 ◼   ► of clothes that we have to choose from. When I was a boy, we just had one pair of pants

00:32:22 ◼   ► and one shirt. Like you have to re-examine everything you're feeling about this in the

00:32:28 ◼   ► context of your own life and your own progression through this and it's like is this just a

00:32:33 ◼   ► natural part of getting older or is this a natural part of a market getting older because

00:32:38 ◼   ► like some markets are mature and kind of stay the same like for example mechanical watches

00:32:42 ◼   ► not a lot of motion there just fashion moving back and forth and some markets are much more

00:32:46 ◼   ► dynamic like technology they're changing all the time and like I said this doesn't mean

00:32:50 ◼   ► that you're wrong about you know Apple being in a period where they're like either overextended

00:32:54 ◼   ► or doing weird things or making different trade-offs or perhaps not picking the best

00:32:58 ◼   ► balance of the product line, especially as far as you're concerned or whatever.

00:33:02 ◼   ► But it does mean that at the very least, every time you have these feelings, just like if

00:33:07 ◼   ► you have the feeling about the kids these days, you have to examine it in that context

00:33:13 ◼   ► honestly.

00:33:14 ◼   ► And even if you're not going to examine it, at the very least voice the fact that you

00:33:16 ◼   ► know this is a cliché and it could be that you're totally misleading yourself or whatever.

00:33:22 ◼   ► And I think that will go a long way towards getting to the heart of what is really going

00:33:25 ◼   ► on.

00:33:26 ◼   ► Because the feeling is real.

00:33:27 ◼   ► Like, the feeling is 100% real.

00:33:28 ◼   ► But it's when you draw from that feeling to the conclusions that you have to be careful,

00:33:32 ◼   ► especially, and I think especially, and now we're getting back to specifics more, when

00:33:36 ◼   ► in the case of Apple, you find your way through a series of logical leaps to some sort of

00:33:43 ◼   ► maliciousness or bad motivation, whether it be greed or carelessness or, you know, whatever

00:33:50 ◼   ► it may be.

00:33:51 ◼   ► Because most of the time, as we all know, it's very easy to jump to conclusions about

00:33:56 ◼   ► maliciousness when really it's just an unfortunate series of events or a product that's not actually

00:34:00 ◼   ► made for you or you don't have all the information available or all those other explanations

00:34:05 ◼   ► because in the grand scheme of things, Apple is not a super evil company.

00:34:11 ◼   ► And it's true that you can have a company full of really good people that nevertheless

00:34:15 ◼   ► does things that are bad.

00:34:17 ◼   ► But we all know Apple well enough that I really have a hard time believing the most craven

00:34:23 ◼   ► theories about why Apple does anything, especially without any actual evidence other than it

00:34:27 ◼   ► seems like this is the type of thing they would do because I'm mad about the fact that

00:34:30 ◼   ► the product lines are changing.

00:34:32 ◼   ► And getting even more specific, I think with the trade-offs and the products, I think it's

00:34:36 ◼   ► just a natural diversification of this type of product line.

00:34:38 ◼   ► If you just look at any other business where you start off with something simple, even

00:34:42 ◼   ► just the Model T that comes in one color, and look at the variety of crazy things we

00:34:46 ◼   ► have now. Did you see the, what was it, the, not the M6, the 6, the X6M, it's the M version

00:34:52 ◼   ► of the stupid XBMW. What is that called? Yeah, the X6M. It's like 0 to 60 in three seconds.

00:34:57 ◼   ► It's like a, it's like an SUV that's as fast as, as, it just doesn't make any sense as

00:35:02 ◼   ► a car. Like, they make completely nonsensical things, and it's like, oh, I liked it better

00:35:07 ◼   ► when we just had the Model T, and that was the card you could get. You can get a Panamera,

00:35:10 ◼   ► You can get that--

00:35:12 ◼   ► I still don't know the name of the car-- the X6M.

00:35:14 ◼   ► You can get a Miata with a Fiat body on it.

00:35:17 ◼   ► I mean, you can get all manner of crazy things in cars.

00:35:19 ◼   ► And it's like, it was much simpler when it was just

00:35:21 ◼   ► like one or two cars.

00:35:22 ◼   ► It was, but this is not how the market goes.

00:35:24 ◼   ► And now it's like, now I have to pick which

00:35:25 ◼   ► trade-offs do I want.

00:35:26 ◼   ► Do I want a minivan or do I have to get this car, but I

00:35:28 ◼   ► can't fit as many kids in it.

00:35:29 ◼   ► But then this has seats, but they're small back seats.

00:35:31 ◼   ► But it doesn't go as fast as this car.

00:35:32 ◼   ► It's like, yeah, that's just the natural

00:35:34 ◼   ► progression of any market.

00:35:35 ◼   ► It's going to spread like that.

00:35:36 ◼   ► And it may be uncomfortable, because we were used to,

00:35:38 ◼   ► especially, like I said, a weird period of time

00:35:41 ◼   ► when we grew up there in computers

00:35:42 ◼   ► that when they were basically the same

00:35:44 ◼   ► but better every year, it was just such a clean win.

00:35:46 ◼   ► It would be nice if things continued that way,

00:35:48 ◼   ► nice in terms of our comfort,

00:35:49 ◼   ► but probably not the right thing to do for the market.

00:35:52 ◼   ► Anyway, this is not, like I said,

00:35:54 ◼   ► this is not to dismiss all of your criticisms

00:35:56 ◼   ► 'cause I have criticisms about the tool, we all do,

00:35:58 ◼   ► only to make a comment on how I think we all have to look

00:36:03 ◼   ► at the things that are legitimately upsetting us

00:36:06 ◼   ► about the technology, in the grand scheme of things,

00:36:09 ◼   ► who cares, right?

00:36:10 ◼   ► But the technology products that we're thinking about

00:36:11 ◼   ► and buying, like you said, because you use them

00:36:13 ◼   ► for your work and it does have an effect on you,

00:36:15 ◼   ► an actual real effect, it's not all academic.

00:36:17 ◼   ► - And there's nowhere else to go, like--

00:36:19 ◼   ► - Well, you don't know that because you just don't even try

00:36:21 ◼   ► that, for all you know, Android can be awesome.

00:36:23 ◼   ► - Well, I'm thinking more on the desktop, like--

00:36:25 ◼   ► - Well, you could be right there, maybe Linux,

00:36:27 ◼   ► I can't even say it, all right?

00:36:29 ◼   ► - Windows 10, Windows 10 might be good.

00:36:31 ◼   ► Casey likes other Windows, you can put them

00:36:32 ◼   ► on the side of the screen if you don't know

00:36:33 ◼   ► how to manage Windows.

00:36:34 ◼   ► - No, I mean, I think, first of all, I think you're right.

00:36:37 ◼   ► I mean, this is why everyone loves you,

00:36:39 ◼   ► because you're able to see through all of our emotions

00:36:43 ◼   ► and BS arguments and call it what it is.

00:36:45 ◼   ► So I think you're right.

00:36:47 ◼   ► - Emotions are real.

00:36:49 ◼   ► Going back, this whole show is just a series

00:36:51 ◼   ► of erotic references and Simpsons references

00:36:53 ◼   ► that you don't get.

00:36:54 ◼   ► Emotions are real.

00:36:54 ◼   ► Like, it's not to say that like, oh, dismiss the emotion.

00:36:58 ◼   ► Like, those are real.

00:36:59 ◼   ► Your feelings are real and legitimate,

00:37:01 ◼   ► and I want to validate them, right?

00:37:03 ◼   ► It's just, it's like, how you act on them

00:37:05 ◼   ► and what conclusions you might draw,

00:37:07 ◼   ► and all I'm saying is to be skeptical

00:37:09 ◼   ► when those thoughts fall into common patterns

00:37:11 ◼   ► that we know are kind of anti-patterns.

00:37:12 ◼   ► Doesn't mean that you're wrong.

00:37:14 ◼   ► It just means like, use that as a tool to turn through 'em.

00:37:17 ◼   ► - No, I mean, that's fair.

00:37:18 ◼   ► I think part of what I'm feeling is that I really do think

00:37:22 ◼   ► Apple has more quality problems now than they used to.

00:37:24 ◼   ► I really do think that they are spread more thin

00:37:27 ◼   ► than they used to be, and I really do think

00:37:29 ◼   ► that their new products are not nearly as big of hits

00:37:32 ◼   ► or as clean of wins as their previous products.

00:37:36 ◼   ► But I think also it's that, as you mentioned,

00:37:39 ◼   ► it used to be so much simpler.

00:37:42 ◼   ► For a while there, I would get excited

00:37:44 ◼   ► about almost anything Apple did,

00:37:46 ◼   ► because almost anything they did was potentially for me.

00:37:50 ◼   ► Whereas now, right now everything's all hyped up

00:37:54 ◼   ► about iPad Pro and the Apple TV,

00:37:56 ◼   ► 'cause those are the newest things.

00:37:58 ◼   ► And the kind of products I use,

00:38:00 ◼   ► like the biggest, most powerful, most expensive desktops

00:38:03 ◼   ► and the biggest laptops don't get updated very frequently

00:38:07 ◼   ► in meaningful ways.

00:38:08 ◼   ► The Mac Pro hardly ever gets touched.

00:38:10 ◼   ► The 15 inch MacBook Pro is actually due for an update

00:38:13 ◼   ► pretty soon with Skylake and I'm sure they're gonna make it

00:38:16 ◼   ► thinner and lighter and with less battery life

00:38:18 ◼   ► and everything and that'll be fine

00:38:19 ◼   ► and I'll probably buy one eventually.

00:38:22 ◼   ► So the kind of products that I like

00:38:25 ◼   ► just are kind of out of the PR cycle right now

00:38:27 ◼   ► and the kinds of products,

00:38:29 ◼   ► like the iPad is very frustrating to me

00:38:31 ◼   ► because I always want to really get into the iPad

00:38:34 ◼   ► and it just never sticks for me.

00:38:35 ◼   ► I never can do what I need to do on it.

00:38:38 ◼   ► And I hear other people able to incredibly,

00:38:42 ◼   ► awesomely, freely work on their iPad Pros

00:38:46 ◼   ► and get most of all of their work done on the iPad

00:38:49 ◼   ► and I feel like I'm living on another planet here

00:38:51 ◼   ► because I just can't do that

00:38:53 ◼   ► and I'm afraid of, you know,

00:38:54 ◼   ► that I'm being the old fogey here

00:38:56 ◼   ► going to get overrun by all these young people using iPads and being able to, I don't know,

00:39:00 ◼   ► glide above me with their wonderful big light aircraft carriers that are the giant iPads.

00:39:04 ◼   ► But I think back to in college, sorry for the long, long-winded Marko episode right

00:39:13 ◼   ► now but I'm almost done, I'm almost back to coughing, don't worry. But you know, I think

00:39:17 ◼   ► back to a time in college, I had a professor who's still there named Gregory Caphammer

00:39:21 ◼   ► at Allegheny College, I noticed in his office that he was using desktop Linux. And I asked

00:39:26 ◼   ► him, like, you know, why don't you use Windows? Why are you using Linux to do all this stuff?

00:39:32 ◼   ► You know, why are you not using Windows like the rest of the world? Wouldn't that be more

00:39:35 ◼   ► useful? And he said, "I don't use Windows because I can't get any of my work done on

00:39:40 ◼   ► Windows." And at the time, that seemed like the most ridiculous statement I had ever heard.

00:39:47 ◼   ► And I thought, "Wow, what a huge nerd this guy is. Like, I can't believe, how could he

00:39:50 ◼   ► How could he not get his, like,

00:39:51 ◼   ► how can he get his work done on Linux?

00:39:53 ◼   ► Now, looking back on it, he was totally right,

00:39:56 ◼   ► and Linux really was the best platform

00:39:59 ◼   ► to get all of his work done.

00:40:00 ◼   ► And now, if I say, "What is the best platform

00:40:03 ◼   ► "to get my work done?"

00:40:04 ◼   ► It is very clearly Mac OS X.

00:40:07 ◼   ► Like, no question, it's Mac OS, right?

00:40:09 ◼   ► And the reason I don't use Windows

00:40:12 ◼   ► and the reason I don't use Linux

00:40:12 ◼   ► is that I could not get any of my work done

00:40:14 ◼   ► on those platforms.

00:40:15 ◼   ► Now, my work might change over time.

00:40:17 ◼   ► Obviously, if I stop making iOS or Apple ecosystem apps,

00:40:21 ◼   ► then I could probably work very well on Linux

00:40:25 ◼   ► because then I wouldn't need Xcode.

00:40:28 ◼   ► But the difference in, if you're using desktop Linux,

00:40:31 ◼   ► I feel like you have some kind of ownership over that

00:40:34 ◼   ► where because it is so open source and weird

00:40:37 ◼   ► and fragmented, that kind of keeps it healthy.

00:40:41 ◼   ► It's kind of like not having a monoculture as much.

00:40:44 ◼   ► Whereas in the Apple world, one company controls

00:40:48 ◼   ► my entire work environment, my entire work and hobby life.

00:40:53 ◼   ► One company controls all of that, and also,

00:40:56 ◼   ► they seem like it's no longer really top

00:40:58 ◼   ► of their radar anymore.

00:41:00 ◼   ► And that's a little bit scary to me.

00:41:03 ◼   ► And so part of my reaction against everyone thinking

00:41:07 ◼   ► they can get all their work done on the iPads

00:41:08 ◼   ► is kind of a defensive position of like, wait a minute,

00:41:11 ◼   ► I can't get my work done on the iPad,

00:41:13 ◼   ► And also, all this focus on the iPad is possibly costing

00:41:17 ◼   ► the platform that I do get my work on attention

00:41:19 ◼   ► and maybe its future, and that feels threatening.

00:41:22 ◼   ► And obviously that's not a good position to be in,

00:41:25 ◼   ► to feel that way or to feel threatened by that.

00:41:28 ◼   ► Obviously it's partially defensive and irrational

00:41:31 ◼   ► and partially old man get off my lawn kind of stuff.

00:41:34 ◼   ► But it is certainly a feeling

00:41:35 ◼   ► that I think is worth recognizing.

00:41:38 ◼   ► I don't know, what do you guys think?

00:41:40 ◼   ► - So I think the problem that you and I have

00:41:42 ◼   ► is that even though you said you kind of switched

00:41:46 ◼   ► the Apple ecosystem in 2004, is that right?

00:41:48 ◼   ► - That's right.

00:41:49 ◼   ► - All right, so for me, it was, I believe, 2008.

00:41:53 ◼   ► And I think the problem that you and I are wrestling with

00:41:56 ◼   ► is that maybe less than 2004, but certainly in 2008,

00:42:00 ◼   ► when I became an Apple user,

00:42:04 ◼   ► things were just getting better and better

00:42:07 ◼   ► and better and better in pretty much every measurable way.

00:42:12 ◼   ► I'm sure if you were to go back to listen to podcasts from 2008 or 2009, we would have

00:42:16 ◼   ► found something to complain about, because that's what nerds often do.

00:42:20 ◼   ► But with hindsight, I feel like it's fairly clear that things were just getting so much

00:42:25 ◼   ► better so much quicker.

00:42:26 ◼   ► We were on this hockey stick of awesome, just going up and up and up and up.

00:42:32 ◼   ► And I remember being very happy about Snow Leopard, and Snow Leopard came at the right

00:42:36 ◼   ► time because I felt like that's when things were starting to get a little shaky.

00:42:40 ◼   ► And then Snow Leopard came and, to my recollection, fixed a lot of the problems.

00:42:45 ◼   ► And I think that this—the last year or so, maybe a little more, maybe a little less,

00:42:52 ◼   ► is the first time that I—and I presume you, Marco—have had to deal with an apple that

00:42:58 ◼   ► maybe isn't firing on all cylinders, or isn't doing what we want it to do, which

00:43:04 ◼   ► comes back to what Jon was saying earlier.

00:43:06 ◼   ► You know, maybe this isn't for us after all.

00:43:09 ◼   ► And I think back to like the 2008 era, and I don't feel like they ever—I don't think

00:43:14 ◼   ► at that point they really had any terribly strong competition in the mobile space.

00:43:19 ◼   ► And I think anyone who paid even the least bit of attention would realize, wow, their

00:43:24 ◼   ► computers are so much better than anything PC had—anything that Microsoft would have

00:43:31 ◼   ► touched.

00:43:32 ◼   ► And it was so obvious that Apple was so much better in almost every measurable way.

00:43:39 ◼   ► And it was funny because at the time I remember saying to friends, "You know, I hope that

00:43:44 ◼   ► Android gets better and I hope that Windows Phone Mobile 6 Metro, whatever it was called

00:43:50 ◼   ► –

00:43:51 ◼   ► >>Trevor: Pocket edition.

00:43:52 ◼   ► >>

00:43:52 ◼   ► I hope that takes off, because I want Apple to have competition.

00:43:56 ◼   ► I want them to have to work for it, because I don't want them to get complacent.

00:44:01 ◼   ► And looking back on it, I almost wonder if that wasn't what we wanted.

00:44:06 ◼   ► Because granted, Apple shouldn't be complacent now, and perhaps isn't complacent.

00:44:13 ◼   ► But at the time, I feel like they were so far ahead of the competition that they could

00:44:18 ◼   ► meander their way into something awesome casually. Whereas today, I don't know if I would go

00:44:26 ◼   ► so far as to explain—go so far as to say that they're playing catch-up, but things

00:44:32 ◼   ► are not quite so simple anymore. And I think, Marco, you had said earlier, or one of you

00:44:35 ◼   ► guys had said earlier, you know, Android phones are pretty darn good now. And—

00:44:39 ◼   ► That wasn't me. Well, fair enough. So they've gotten a lot

00:44:44 ◼   ► better anyway. And so a lot of the ways in which Apple was a clear and obvious winner, they may not

00:44:50 ◼   ► be the clear and obvious winner anymore. And so I feel like where they used to be, they used to be

00:44:56 ◼   ► paving the racetrack, you know, half a, half a, half the length of track ahead of all the race cars,

00:45:03 ◼   ► now they're like yards ahead of the race cars, and I think it's starting to show. And so I think what

00:45:10 ◼   ► we're wrestling with, and I'm hoping Jon will provide some historical context here as soon as

00:45:13 ◼   ► as I shut up is this is the first time that you and I have seen an apple that maybe has

00:45:19 ◼   ► sputtered a little bit.

00:45:21 ◼   ► It may not be as bad as us three curmudgeons make it out to be, but I think we can all

00:45:26 ◼   ► agree they're sputtering a little bit, just a little bit.

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00:47:25 ◼   ► our show. So going back to what I started out wanting to talk about with this Tuck Sharkade

00:47:32 ◼   ► article about the Apple TV app store apparently doing pretty poorly so far. It does seem like

00:47:38 ◼   ► one of the problems that Apple is facing now is that even Apple seems to be trying very

00:47:45 ◼   ► hard to replicate their earlier successes and not really hitting them. And so the article

00:47:51 ◼   ► is talking about from the point of view of developers and the app stores and saying that

00:47:56 ◼   ► that basically that not a lot of people are having success

00:48:00 ◼   ► in the non-iPhone and iPad app stores.

00:48:03 ◼   ► So the watch and the Apple TV and maybe the Mac,

00:48:06 ◼   ► I don't know if it's even talked about the Mac,

00:48:07 ◼   ► but certainly the watch and the Apple TV,

00:48:09 ◼   ► like the new ones.

00:48:11 ◼   ► I would even extend that to say probably the iPad.

00:48:14 ◼   ► I mean, we'll see, like right now the iPad Pro is out.

00:48:17 ◼   ► It's a good time for selling decent iPad software right now

00:48:22 ◼   ► and the iPad Pro will have momentum.

00:48:25 ◼   ► It is a very compelling product to a lot of people,

00:48:27 ◼   ► so it will succeed, it will have momentum,

00:48:30 ◼   ► it'll do well in the holiday season,

00:48:31 ◼   ► and it'll probably do well for the next year or so,

00:48:34 ◼   ► but then what?

00:48:35 ◼   ► 'Cause we saw what happened with previous iPad software,

00:48:38 ◼   ► which was basically, it did okay for a while,

00:48:43 ◼   ► but then it was very hard for developers to justify

00:48:46 ◼   ► putting a lot of time into the iPad versions of their apps.

00:48:48 ◼   ► And there's always gonna be certain apps

00:48:49 ◼   ► where it always makes sense.

00:48:50 ◼   ► But I'm talking more generally, more apps,

00:48:53 ◼   ► general purpose apps, general productivity,

00:48:55 ◼   ► or browsing, or social, or whatever kind of apps

00:48:57 ◼   ► that people tend to want to use

00:48:59 ◼   ► on their modern computing devices.

00:49:00 ◼   ► The iPad historically has been pretty far behind

00:49:04 ◼   ► in a lot of those areas because it just hasn't been worth

00:49:06 ◼   ► developers putting a lot of time into it.

00:49:08 ◼   ► The sales didn't usually support it,

00:49:10 ◼   ► while the iPhone always did very well.

00:49:13 ◼   ► So in this article, they're basically making

00:49:15 ◼   ► the same argument that all these new app stores

00:49:17 ◼   ► keep coming out from Apple, and Apple keeps wanting

00:49:19 ◼   ► developers to make all this great stuff

00:49:21 ◼   ► for these new devices and new platforms,

00:49:24 ◼   ► but it doesn't seem to be working very well.

00:49:28 ◼   ► It doesn't seem like it's worth developers' time

00:49:32 ◼   ► to put much into those things.

00:49:34 ◼   ► And that's a shame, because these are platforms

00:49:36 ◼   ► that have incredible potential if it's realized,

00:49:38 ◼   ► but it's just not, this article's citing

00:49:41 ◼   ► very, very low sales figures for these apps.

00:49:45 ◼   ► I could just tell, just anecdotally talking

00:49:47 ◼   ► to my developer friends and seeing my own numbers

00:49:49 ◼   ► from the watch and stuff, it really does seem like developing for the watch or the TV at

00:49:54 ◼   ► this point is probably not a great use of limited amounts of time. And, you know, developing

00:50:02 ◼   ► just for the iPhone is probably a pretty safe bet for most apps, unless they really need

00:50:07 ◼   ► like a big canvas or they really need a TV version or something. But, you know, it seems

00:50:11 ◼   ► like Apple had this great success with the iPhone. And everything they've done since

00:50:16 ◼   ► then has been trying to recreate that kind of success.

00:50:19 ◼   ► Maybe, I mean, obviously the cell phone market is very different with things like, you know,

00:50:24 ◼   ► subsidies and just the pocketability and everything.

00:50:27 ◼   ► They're never going to exactly reproduce the iPhone success.

00:50:32 ◼   ► But they at least want to get, like, I don't know, in the ballpark with an order of magnitude

00:50:37 ◼   ► maybe and I don't, I think they're having trouble replicating their own success.

00:50:42 ◼   ► And from the angle of developers, like what this is talking about, I think one of the

00:50:47 ◼   ► problems here is that Apple, with the success of the iPhone, and with the early success

00:50:54 ◼   ► of the iPad, although not the latest success, but with the success of those two platforms

00:50:57 ◼   ► and mostly the iPhone, Apple developed this level of closed-offness and arrogance towards

00:51:05 ◼   ► developers that, I don't know if they always had it, I wasn't an Apple developer before

00:51:10 ◼   ► that point, but certainly with the App Store era here, and it seems like they have developed

00:51:19 ◼   ► almost a hostility. In many ways it is hostility. In certain ways it's not. The open sourcing

00:51:25 ◼   ► of Swift is solid and a really good move, but in many ways the actual experience of

00:51:31 ◼   ► being an Apple developer, especially if you're reliant on the App Stores, if you're on anything

00:51:36 ◼   ► but the Mac, the actual experience of being an Apple developer is pretty hostile at most

00:51:42 ◼   ► times. Apple has, you know, if you look at every other company in the industry, every

00:51:47 ◼   ► other company that has a platform that they need apps to be built on, they are all, with

00:51:55 ◼   ► the possible exception of Amazon, because they're just horrible, but besides Amazon,

00:51:59 ◼   ► other companies try to attract developers to their platform. They tend to make things

00:52:04 ◼   ► nicer for developers. They tend to actively recruit developers and try really, really

00:52:09 ◼   ► hard to get developers to their platforms. Apple tries to get developers to their platforms

00:52:15 ◼   ► the way New York tries to get people to move here. It's like, it's just like, just barriers

00:52:21 ◼   ► and brick walls and taxes and downsides and it's like, just, Apple basically says, "Please

00:52:28 ◼   ► don't be a developer here." Because for the iPhone, they didn't have to go out and beg

00:52:33 ◼   ► developers to come develop for their platform.

00:52:36 ◼   ► Developers were knocking the door down.

00:52:38 ◼   ► And Apple has been able to kind of be carried by that

00:52:41 ◼   ► all this time, that attitude of like,

00:52:44 ◼   ► of being in the maximum position of power,

00:52:47 ◼   ► not needing to really be nice for developers

00:52:51 ◼   ► to work with at all for the iPhone.

00:52:55 ◼   ► But for their other platforms, they're having these problems.

00:52:59 ◼   ► The other platforms, developers aren't knocking

00:53:02 ◼   ► doors down. And I feel like Apple doesn't really know how to manage that situation.

00:53:07 ◼   ► They don't even know how to attract developers who don't already want to be there. They

00:53:11 ◼   ► certainly are not set up for it with the store or developer relations or any of these departments

00:53:16 ◼   ► that so far have not really needed to do this, at least in the last decade. And I feel like

00:53:23 ◼   ► they don't even know how to solve this problem. And part of it is not their problem at all.

00:53:27 ◼   ► Part of it is a market problem of like, well, they got to, you know, get more of these devices

00:53:30 ◼   ► out there and get people, you know, buy more apps on them. But a big part of it is like

00:53:35 ◼   ► Apple's developer approach in general, the app stores themselves and the app store policies

00:53:42 ◼   ► are all really fighting against developer adoption on these new platforms. So I feel

00:53:47 ◼   ► like this is one major way in which Apple is stumbling now and I don't see an end

00:53:51 ◼   ► in sight to the way they currently do developer relations and the app stores. And so therefore

00:53:57 ◼   ► I don't think the Apple TV and the watch are gonna really do well app wise and I'm worried about the iPad Pro

00:54:04 ◼   ► Once once the current like newness of it dies down, which is probably only gonna be in like six months

00:54:09 ◼   ► You know once that dies down

00:54:10 ◼   ► I worry about the the health of the software ecosystems on these platforms because it seems like Apple does not know how to manage that

00:54:17 ◼   ► You feel okay about the iPad I think because like in big picture type stuff of you know

00:54:24 ◼   ► Having used Apple stuff since 1984 or not use Mac stuff since 1984 and Apple Apple tools before that and everything

00:54:30 ◼   ► There is an overall arc

00:54:34 ◼   ► To this market that I talked about like that, you know personal computers became a thing in in my lifetime anyway, and

00:54:40 ◼   ► for a while they had a steady stream of improvements obvious improvements to a basic form called the personal computer and

00:54:50 ◼   ► Round about the time laptops started to become a thing that one solid form which was basically a keyboard a box and a monitor

00:54:57 ◼   ► Plus or minus the monitor being connected to the box or whatever and just getting better every year floppy disks that yeah

00:55:03 ◼   ► well that that sort of

00:55:05 ◼   ► It became more diverse like the tree started to sprout branches and just it's getting more branch here as we go here

00:55:12 ◼   ► So that's that's diversifying. So there is that overall arc but still within that overall arc

00:55:16 ◼   ► Like you said there's the ups and downs of Apple. There's the ups and downs of the industry

00:55:20 ◼   ► There's lots of other things going around if you've seen more than one of those cycles

00:55:23 ◼   ► It starts to not feel as panicking and you can just say well

00:55:27 ◼   ► This isn't as bad as it was when like the Mac came out and was better than every other computer in the world and nobody

00:55:31 ◼   ► Bought it

00:55:33 ◼   ► Certainly, they didn't have that problem with the iPhone and even the iPad to that degree

00:55:36 ◼   ► But really what I think you should feel good about like for the iPad for example is

00:55:41 ◼   ► we all we were tweeting recently a couple days ago about all these stories of like

00:55:47 ◼   ► elementary school teachers in computer labs having the the

00:55:50 ◼   ► Young kids come into computer labs and be throwing the mice around because they had no idea what they were

00:55:54 ◼   ► Right because this is a generation of children that is brought up with phones that are like the iPhone and with tablets and

00:56:03 ◼   ► Some of these kids even if there was a PC in their house with a mouse attached to it

00:56:07 ◼   ► Have probably had never had any occasion to use it had no attraction to it

00:56:13 ◼   ► were you know were asking to grab their parents iPhone to play games on it if they didn't have one of their own and

00:56:19 ◼   ► If they were if they were lucky enough to have like a hand-me-down iPad or some kind of tablet would do stuff on that

00:56:26 ◼   ► The personal computer as a thing to to the upcoming generation is I mean and any

00:56:32 ◼   ► You know the mouse examples because like if they did have a PC was probably a laptop and probably had a trackpad

00:56:37 ◼   ► another thing that's not a mouse so

00:56:40 ◼   ► Doesn't really matter in the grand generational scheme of things

00:56:43 ◼   ► if this entire generation thinks of

00:56:46 ◼   ► Either doesn't think of computers or basically thinks of them as tablets

00:56:51 ◼   ► It doesn't mean Apple's gonna win the market for tablets, but it does mean that

00:56:54 ◼   ► Every every kid born into a world where they touch screens on their phones and their tablets

00:57:00 ◼   ► That's how they do everything has no attachment to the PC is a thing. They're going to be you know when they're an old professor

00:57:06 ◼   ► They're gonna be like why I'm professor. Why do you have this stupid tablet that you touch on your thing?

00:57:11 ◼   ► Like why why don't you use VR headset and he's like I only get my work done is on this tablet

00:57:15 ◼   ► And then it's like why don't we use VR headsets? But everyone else uses stupid using a tablet, right? That's a silly example

00:57:21 ◼   ► I'm just picking things out of a hat that we can relate to right that

00:57:24 ◼   ► the job of the company like long the long-term health of the company is to try to figure out what the next thing is and

00:57:30 ◼   ► Be there and Apple did a pretty good job with the iPad doesn't mean Apple's going to win the future sort of you know

00:57:36 ◼   ► Apple was lucky enough to both invent the future with the iPhone.

00:57:39 ◼   ► You say, "Hey guys, this is what a smartphone should be like."

00:57:42 ◼   ► And everyone else was like, "Oh yeah, no, you're totally right."

00:57:44 ◼   ► And then here we are today.

00:57:46 ◼   ► And they still did well.

00:57:48 ◼   ► Apple essentially invented the future as we know it.

00:57:51 ◼   ► Like, this is what a modern GUI looks like.

00:57:53 ◼   ► We've got menus and dragon files around doing all this stuff.

00:57:56 ◼   ► And they more or less popularized that, but didn't win that market.

00:58:00 ◼   ► Someone else came and said, "Yeah, those are great ideas."

00:58:02 ◼   ► Now Microsoft just said, "We'll take those and run with it."

00:58:05 ◼   ► and we're going to do better than you in every other way,

00:58:08 ◼   ► so you're going to be a footnote in that type of race.

00:58:11 ◼   ► So when I think about all these markets

00:58:15 ◼   ► that you're talking about for like selling apps to the iPad

00:58:17 ◼   ► and how is the iPad Pro gonna do,

00:58:18 ◼   ► how is the television gonna do or whatever,

00:58:19 ◼   ► I think the most important thing is to make sure

00:58:23 ◼   ► that Apple is wherever these various markets are going.

00:58:26 ◼   ► TV attached boxes are a thing

00:58:27 ◼   ► and Apple's a little behind there,

00:58:28 ◼   ► but they still have to be there.

00:58:30 ◼   ► Tablets are a thing mostly because Apple made them a thing,

00:58:32 ◼   ► mostly because Apple made the smartphone a thing,

00:58:34 ◼   ► and Apple is also there and is kind of still in the race.

00:58:37 ◼   ► So I'm not as really pessimistic about all these things

00:58:42 ◼   ► because Apple may not be the clear winner

00:58:45 ◼   ► in all these categories,

00:58:46 ◼   ► but it is reasonably well positioned.

00:58:48 ◼   ► And the other thing that comes to mind historically speaking

00:58:51 ◼   ► is whenever I hear Apple fans start to talk

00:58:54 ◼   ► like Microsoft fans of old or think like it,

00:58:57 ◼   ► the old Microsoft fandom, when Microsoft ruled the world

00:59:02 ◼   ► and Apple was a footnote and Windows was everywhere

00:59:04 ◼   ► and the PC was just a plain old PC

00:59:06 ◼   ► and that would never change

00:59:07 ◼   ► and Microsoft would live forever, right?

00:59:09 ◼   ► There was a mindset that any market

00:59:14 ◼   ► that Microsoft entered they would win

00:59:16 ◼   ► and then Microsoft must enter every market.

00:59:18 ◼   ► And that's unhealthy thinking.

00:59:20 ◼   ► Like the iPhone is a phenomenal success.

00:59:24 ◼   ► And then it's like, well, if Apple enters the TV market

00:59:28 ◼   ► the assumption is A, they want it to be as successful

00:59:31 ◼   ► as the iPhone, not monetarily, but you know,

00:59:32 ◼   ► terms of like it is as successful of all the TV boxes, Apple makes the best one, everyone

00:59:36 ◼   ► agrees and they sell a lot of them and they make a lot of money, you know what I mean?

00:59:41 ◼   ► They need to be the leader in that market, be the best and then it needs to be super

00:59:46 ◼   ► successful and it's impossible to do that but it doesn't mean Apple shouldn't be in

00:59:51 ◼   ► those markets.

00:59:52 ◼   ► So I think it's okay for Apple to enter a market or dip its toe in a market or noodle

00:59:57 ◼   ► around in a market for a really long time like with the TV boxes or even tablets for

01:00:01 ◼   ► for that matter, because it's important for them

01:00:03 ◼   ► to be there, to figure out what that's about,

01:00:05 ◼   ► and to try to improve and try to be well positioned

01:00:08 ◼   ► if and when something takes off,

01:00:09 ◼   ► which is why Apple also has to do a VR thing,

01:00:10 ◼   ► maybe while they're making a car.

01:00:13 ◼   ► But I don't get bent out of shape thinking about

01:00:16 ◼   ► it's a real problem if people don't make lots of watch apps.

01:00:20 ◼   ► Maybe watch apps, as they're currently conceptualized,

01:00:23 ◼   ► are not even worth doing, in which case it would,

01:00:26 ◼   ► like, what are you winning?

01:00:27 ◼   ► It's like a Pyrrhic victory.

01:00:28 ◼   ► You're on the top of a little tiny hill.

01:00:29 ◼   ► Like, we are the king of watch apps.

01:00:31 ◼   ► like no one cares about watch apps, it's not important, it's a waste of time, don't try

01:00:37 ◼   ► to force it, allow the markets to be what they're going to be, and in particular for

01:00:43 ◼   ► the TV apps, what I think about is, is that a place where people make software and sell

01:00:47 ◼   ► it for money?

01:00:48 ◼   ► That's a model that has worked on the App Store and on the PC before, but on television,

01:00:52 ◼   ► I think of all the apps that I use and it's like, I pay money to Netflix, and Netflix

01:00:57 ◼   ► needs to have an Apple TV app, but I don't pay money for the Netflix app, I pay money

01:01:00 ◼   ► to HBO and HBO needs to have an Apple TV app but I don't pay money for the HBO.

01:01:05 ◼   ► Like, you know what I mean?

01:01:06 ◼   ► It's like a value add or something that just has to be there, but it's not a situation

01:01:09 ◼   ► in which someone writes software and sells it to me for money.

01:01:11 ◼   ► It is merely just a way to receive the content that I pay a subscription for.

01:01:16 ◼   ► You know what I mean?

01:01:17 ◼   ► That is kind of how every game console works, though.

01:01:20 ◼   ► Well, you know.

01:01:21 ◼   ► Why am I telling you this?

01:01:24 ◼   ► Does Apple have to try to compete with game consoles?

01:01:27 ◼   ► Like they're figuring that out.

01:01:29 ◼   ► "Is this the future of gaming or is it not the future of gaming?"

01:01:32 ◼   ► If it is, Apple is reasonably positioned.

01:01:34 ◼   ► If it's not, if you can't, you know, if traditional console model still has legs and Apple doesn't

01:01:40 ◼   ► want to compete there, and why would Apple want to compete there?

01:01:42 ◼   ► That is an old model that works, but it is certainly not like the future, right?

01:01:47 ◼   ► So anyway, I think I'm just more chill about these things in that I don't see every move

01:01:52 ◼   ► that Apple makes into a new market as like a desperate ploy and that I must be down on

01:01:56 ◼   ► if it's not successful because almost nothing is going to be as successful as the iPhone.

01:02:01 ◼   ► Almost nothing is going to be as successful as the PC, conceptually, not the Mac specifically.

01:02:05 ◼   ► But the PC was an amazing success.

01:02:07 ◼   ► Apple did not share in most of that success.

01:02:10 ◼   ► But how often do you get those things?

01:02:11 ◼   ► You got the PC, you've got the automobile, you've got movable type, you've got the wheel,

01:02:16 ◼   ► you've got the smartphone.

01:02:17 ◼   ► Like we don't know what the next one of those things is going to be.

01:02:20 ◼   ► Tablets could just be an extension of the smartphone.

01:02:23 ◼   ► Maybe VR is the next one, maybe it's not.

01:02:24 ◼   ► I don't know, but I'm fine with Apple making a TV box that hopefully is a decent TV box.

01:02:29 ◼   ► I would have been fine with them making a DVR, but they never did because they don't

01:02:32 ◼   ► love me.

01:02:36 ◼   ► I think you just have to kind of...

01:02:39 ◼   ► What I'm fighting against is the expectation that used to be around Microsoft, that whatever

01:02:43 ◼   ► they did, they had to be the winner and it had to be awesome and it had to be great,

01:02:46 ◼   ► like the Steve Ballmer go-go-go type thing.

01:02:49 ◼   ► Microsoft found the limits of that.

01:02:50 ◼   ► Microsoft found that eventually not only is this next thing not going to be the next big

01:02:54 ◼   ► like pen computing for Windows or whatever the hell they were doing.

01:02:57 ◼   ► Not only are we not going to be speaking to our computers as the main form of input in

01:03:01 ◼   ► 2001, as Bill Gates might have been surmising at some point in the past, not only will,

01:03:08 ◼   ► you know, whatever Microsoft thinks, like the Xbox, be like the future of entertainment,

01:03:13 ◼   ► although that was pretty successful as far as those things, but there will be a big thing.

01:03:17 ◼   ► Microsoft will be in it, smartphones, and it will lose.

01:03:20 ◼   ► It will lose big.

01:03:22 ◼   ► It will have been there before everybody else,

01:03:25 ◼   ► and it will not only not win,

01:03:27 ◼   ► but it will just be like a footnote,

01:03:29 ◼   ► like Windows phone, right?

01:03:31 ◼   ► And that's what comes from expecting

01:03:35 ◼   ► every single thing you do to like,

01:03:37 ◼   ► we're gonna dominate them,

01:03:37 ◼   ► because you start to believe you're on hype.

01:03:38 ◼   ► You start to believe all Microsoft does do

01:03:40 ◼   ► is introduce a product in this category,

01:03:42 ◼   ► and we will be dominant and we will win.

01:03:44 ◼   ► And if we make up a new category,

01:03:46 ◼   ► like computing with a pen,

01:03:47 ◼   ► that will be the next big thing,

01:03:48 ◼   ► 'cause our CEO says it is.

01:03:50 ◼   ► And when it's not, we'll keep making a new version

01:03:52 ◼   ► a new version and a new version and we'll be like, "I don't understand what's going

01:03:55 ◼   ► on here," and then someone else will come out with, you know, the iPhone or whatever

01:03:58 ◼   ► and make us all look foolish.

01:04:00 ◼   ► And so, I don't know.

01:04:01 ◼   ► I don't know what's going inside Apple, but from the outside, I'm much more content to

01:04:06 ◼   ► let these things sort of sort themselves, minus the stuff you were talking about with

01:04:09 ◼   ► the developer relations, because I think that's a legit issue that Apple needs to sort out

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01:06:42 ◼   ► Thanks a lot.

01:06:43 ◼   ► - Do we have any other thoughts on this,

01:06:44 ◼   ► or do we wanna take this to a slightly happier place?

01:06:47 ◼   ► - I have a lot of thoughts on it,

01:06:48 ◼   ► but I mean, you broke the topic,

01:06:49 ◼   ► but we'll save it for follow-up.

01:06:51 ◼   ► Maybe we'll get feedback from people about it later.

01:06:54 ◼   ► - I think what's tough about it is

01:06:55 ◼   ► is that, like Marco has said,

01:06:57 ◼   ► we've seen some feedback lately,

01:07:01 ◼   ► especially about how negative we've all been.

01:07:03 ◼   ► And it's a tough thing, right?

01:07:05 ◼   ► Because maybe we have been a little too negative,

01:07:07 ◼   ► But we want to call it like we see it, and right now, this is how we see it.

01:07:15 ◼   ► And I think I probably speak for Marco, but I certainly speak for myself.

01:07:20 ◼   ► I intend to try to find the more positive side of things going forward, but we also

01:07:25 ◼   ► don't want to not say what we think.

01:07:28 ◼   ► And if it becomes a bear to listen to, then I'm sorry, I genuinely am, but this is what

01:07:33 ◼   ► we think.

01:07:34 ◼   ► And you know what I think about the Swift open source thing?

01:07:36 ◼   ► The more I see of it, the more I like it.

01:07:39 ◼   ► Nice try, nice transition there.

01:07:41 ◼   ► Now, before we even get off that, I just want to say, like, it's not a choice between, like,

01:07:46 ◼   ► you know, because I, every time I get that feedback, I assume it's not about me, because

01:07:50 ◼   ► I'd say, I think I'm not too negative.

01:07:52 ◼   ► So however you'll be the one person who will boldly say, if you were sending an email and

01:07:55 ◼   ► saying too negative and you mean me, I disagree because I think I'm exactly the amount of

01:07:59 ◼   ► negative I normally am.

01:08:00 ◼   ► And again, I also had a podcast called Hypercritical, so maybe I'm holding myself to a slightly

01:08:05 ◼   ► different standard.

01:08:06 ◼   ► But I think the issue is, the trap is basically, it's not a choice between, "Well, do I not

01:08:12 ◼   ► get to say what I feel?

01:08:15 ◼   ► I'm just being honest," or whatever.

01:08:16 ◼   ► It's all about, like I said at the beginning of this whole thing, it's all about an examination

01:08:20 ◼   ► of your feelings are real, and you have to examine them and examine them with the lens

01:08:26 ◼   ► of like, could there be other really common reasons that I'm feeling the things I'm feeling

01:08:31 ◼   ► about this particular thing that are not explained by the conclusions I would like to leap to because

01:08:35 ◼   ► I'm defensive or upset or I have just turned 30 and the world is passing me by as children swipe

01:08:40 ◼   ► their fingers on their iPad screens and I need to use a mouse or whatever, you know what I mean?

01:08:44 ◼   ► Like, it's, I think most of that feedback is legit and it's a signal for all of us, yes, even me,

01:08:52 ◼   ► to just take a closer look at where these feelings are coming from.

01:08:59 ◼   ► And I think because we've been super negative before, it's mostly just about,

01:09:02 ◼   ► "I feel bad and therefore I come to this conclusion." Now some of it, granted, some of it

01:09:08 ◼   ► is people who just don't want to hear anything bad about Apple, but they have their own things.

01:09:11 ◼   ► Like, "Why are you so upset when anyone says anything bad about Apple, especially people

01:09:15 ◼   ► who love Apple?" Like, that's a separate issue. But there's enough of it. And this is true of

01:09:20 ◼   ► anything that you're critical of, whether it's Star Wars or Apple or any other thing.

01:09:25 ◼   ► It behooves all of us to make sure we are not being a cliché and to not react to complaints

01:09:33 ◼   ► of negativity immediately by thinking that now you're just telling me I can't tell you

01:09:37 ◼   ► what my real feelings are and I just want to be honest.

01:09:40 ◼   ► I'm just saying the truth.

01:09:41 ◼   ► I'm just saying the real thing.

01:09:44 ◼   ► Just to be self-critical.

01:09:47 ◼   ► greatest hypercritical of all is I can't do the Whitney Houston transition, someone else

01:09:51 ◼   ► can figure it out. But yeah, being self-critical is perhaps the most important place of criticism,

01:09:57 ◼   ► and I think it's worthwhile for all of us to do that. And I think we try to do that to each other,

01:10:02 ◼   ► whichever one of us is in the crankiest mood. Hopefully the other two help try to think about

01:10:08 ◼   ► other ways that could be explained. And so I think that's an ongoing thing, and I think we'll all

01:10:14 ◼   ► try to do better in the new year.

01:10:16 ◼   ► - Yep, absolutely.

01:10:18 ◼   ► So, Swift open source.

01:10:20 ◼   ► We've talked about this some,

01:10:21 ◼   ► and unfortunately the show notes are, I think,

01:10:24 ◼   ► some of the things we've talked about

01:10:25 ◼   ► and some of the things we haven't.

01:10:27 ◼   ► But I'm still stunned and extremely pleased

01:10:32 ◼   ► with pretty much everything associated

01:10:35 ◼   ► with this entire endeavor.

01:10:36 ◼   ► I cannot, I just can't believe

01:10:40 ◼   ► that this is really what Apple is doing.

01:10:42 ◼   ► And just this week, Craig Federighi was on the talk show, which I thought was awesome.

01:10:49 ◼   ► And there was some other guy on it too, other than John Gruber.

01:10:51 ◼   ► I don't know who he was, but he was all right.

01:10:54 ◼   ► But Federighi was great.

01:10:55 ◼   ► And I thought it was a really candid conversation.

01:10:59 ◼   ► It didn't feel to me like it was all just BS marketing speak.

01:11:05 ◼   ► This is not unlike the conversation that Gruber had with Phil Schiller at WWDC.

01:11:09 ◼   ► I thought it was really great.

01:11:10 ◼   ► I think what they've done there is great.

01:11:13 ◼   ► Chris Latner, if you ever want to come on the show, let us know.

01:11:18 ◼   ► All this open sourcing with Swift and the way it's being handled and how receptive they've

01:11:22 ◼   ► been to additions from the community, like Erica's—how do you pronounce her last name?

01:11:27 ◼   ► Erica Seydin?

01:11:29 ◼   ► She had pitched getting rid of increment and decrement operators, and that apparently is

01:11:34 ◼   ► going to be a thing.

01:11:35 ◼   ► No, she did the four loops.

01:11:36 ◼   ► Sorry, my bad.

01:11:37 ◼   ► She did the classic four loops.

01:11:38 ◼   ► Sorry, my apologies.

01:11:39 ◼   ► apologies. But that's—so now they're gone. And I just think that's phenomenally

01:11:44 ◼   ► awesome. And I really genuinely commend Apple for pretty much everything that they've

01:11:50 ◼   ► been doing around this space. I don't know. What do you guys think?

01:11:52 ◼   ► Yeah, the stuff I have in for Swift stuff is basically left over from the first time

01:11:56 ◼   ► we discussed it, but it's small tidbits that I thought were fun. First one was a tweet

01:12:00 ◼   ► from Chris Latner from a little while back. It says, "Swift's comments and test suite

01:12:05 ◼   ► are on track to be one of the most correctly spelled and best-indented ones in the industry."

01:12:09 ◼   ► And this maybe this makes no sense

01:12:11 ◼   ► but it's a comment like when you have an open source project and you put it out there and there's a lot of excitement about

01:12:15 ◼   ► It as there is about Swift and there's a lot of people who want to do things

01:12:18 ◼   ► The easiest thing to do is sort of bike shedding or whatever to say

01:12:22 ◼   ► I'm just gonna go in there and fix typos and I'm gonna

01:12:25 ◼   ► Reindent this because the spacing is all messed up in this thing because it's really easy to do that

01:12:30 ◼   ► And when you have a million people and they're just I say I just want to go in there and fix something and so I just

01:12:33 ◼   ► They you know

01:12:35 ◼   ► Fork it on github and go into the documentation and test suite and like fix the broken indenting

01:12:41 ◼   ► And there's a lot of people with enthusiasm and that's how they landed and it's kind of snarky

01:12:46 ◼   ► It's like on the one hand you could be saying that like oh

01:12:50 ◼   ► Chris ladders being mean don't you appreciate our contributions? We're fixing your spelling and typo

01:12:56 ◼   ► That's a legitimate concern, but that's not how he meant it at all as Matthew Palmer pointed out

01:13:01 ◼   ► Anyone teasing people about what he calls pedantic PR as pull requests on Swift lang

01:13:06 ◼   ► The first non Chris Latner commit was a typo fix

01:13:10 ◼   ► And that at Chris Latin himself to clarify later slightly made another tweet that said

01:13:15 ◼   ► Making small improvements is the one that everyone gets started. This is how open source works

01:13:19 ◼   ► Hey, I want to help contribute to Swift

01:13:21 ◼   ► But I am not ready to declare how the language should work because I'd have never even written anything in it

01:13:25 ◼   ► Go fix typos go fix a dent and go fix a test suite go find a test that fails on your system and make

01:13:31 ◼   ► so it passes on your system by adding a new conditional or improving a capability check

01:13:34 ◼   ► or something. That's how open source works. So I think the spirit of these tweets about

01:13:40 ◼   ► the best spelled and indented things, that's a spirit of joyfulness of, "Look at all these

01:13:46 ◼   ► people who are contributing." Craig talked about it on the talk show. The tremendous

01:13:49 ◼   ► activity around Swift, so much enthusiasm. Enthusiasm that had nowhere to go when Swift

01:13:54 ◼   ► was closed source. And now that it's open source, all these people who are jazzed about Swift

01:13:58 ◼   ► have some place to put that effort, and just having hundreds and thousands of people making

01:14:03 ◼   ► this thing better. Like, it's just got to feel awesome for Apple. It's like, essentially,

01:14:07 ◼   ► the magic of open source. We're getting free labor that's making things better for everybody,

01:14:11 ◼   ► including us. And everybody's happy about it. The people who do it are happy because

01:14:14 ◼   ► they feel like I contributed to this big thing that's important to all of us. Apple's happy

01:14:18 ◼   ► because their stuff is getting better. It's great.

01:14:21 ◼   ► Yeah, I've been really impressed by all of it. What else did we have in the show notes

01:14:27 ◼   ► The license, do you want to talk at all about that, John?

01:14:31 ◼   ► Yeah, it came up on the talk show as well.

01:14:33 ◼   ► It's the Apache 2 license.

01:14:34 ◼   ► I'm not a connoisseur of open source licenses,

01:14:37 ◼   ► but it was pointed out to me one interesting thing about Apache

01:14:40 ◼   ► 2, other than the fact that it being like non-viral,

01:14:42 ◼   ► like the GPL, and a license that is

01:14:44 ◼   ► suitable for a commercial entity like Apple

01:14:46 ◼   ► to use for its software so that it doesn't have to open source

01:14:48 ◼   ► everything that it writes in Swift or whatever else.

01:14:52 ◼   ► One particular part of it is the patent grant

01:14:55 ◼   ► that basically makes it gives people cover to say,

01:14:59 ◼   ► "Hey, if I use Swift for like whatever I'm doing,

01:15:01 ◼   ► I'm making some embedded software for like,

01:15:05 ◼   ► you know, a light switch that can,

01:15:07 ◼   ► a wifi light switch or something,

01:15:08 ◼   ► and I wanna use Swift to do it.

01:15:10 ◼   ► Do I have to worry that Apple is gonna sue me

01:15:13 ◼   ► for violating some patent or something like that?"

01:15:16 ◼   ► And the Apache 2 license grants, you know,

01:15:19 ◼   ► if you use the software with this license,

01:15:22 ◼   ► what is it, you know, it's legal ease,

01:15:24 ◼   ► but each contributor hereby grants to you a perpetual

01:15:28 ◼   ► worldwide, non-exclusive, non-charge, royalty-free,

01:15:30 ◼   ► irrevocable, except as stated in the section,

01:15:32 ◼   ► patent license to make, have made, use, offer, sell,

01:15:35 ◼   ► blah, blah, blah.

01:15:35 ◼   ► Like everyone who contributes is basically saying,

01:15:38 ◼   ► if you were contributing something

01:15:39 ◼   ► and you have any patents,

01:15:44 ◼   ► each contributor grants to you a license to those patents.

01:15:47 ◼   ► And then there's the fun section at the end that says,

01:15:49 ◼   ► if you institute patent litigation against any entity,

01:15:52 ◼   ► including a cross-claim or counterclaim in a lawsuit,

01:15:54 ◼   ► alleging that the work or a contribution incorporated within the work constitutes a direct or contributory

01:15:58 ◼   ► patent infringement, then any patent licenses granted to you under this license shall terminate."

01:16:02 ◼   ► So basically, if you contribute stuff and then try to sue other people, because like,

01:16:06 ◼   ► "Hey, that's my patented work in there," then you lose all the patent protection.

01:16:10 ◼   ► It's basically a way to try to work around our stupid patent system to make people feel

01:16:14 ◼   ► safer about both contributing to Swift and or whatever things under the Apache license

01:16:21 ◼   ► to using it and to dissuade people from like putting in a little patent time bomb and then

01:16:25 ◼   ► trying to sue everybody who uses Swift because their patent thing is in there.

01:16:28 ◼   ► I thought it was pretty clever, at least assuming that my understanding of it is remotely accurate.

01:16:33 ◼   ► But the bottom line is that this is something that would make the Apache 2 license particularly

01:16:38 ◼   ► appealing to Apple and make it appealing to people who want to contribute because you

01:16:44 ◼   ► might be afraid of contributing to a project run by a company that has a million patents

01:16:50 ◼   ► and that has litigated based on patents in the past, and Apple has.

01:16:54 ◼   ► All right, so we did not talk about the package manager.

01:16:57 ◼   ► Yeah, this is sort of a human interest story angle type thing.

01:17:01 ◼   ► So I don't know much about Swift package manager, other than we will put a link to it in the

01:17:05 ◼   ► show notes, and it's open source and you can look at it.

01:17:08 ◼   ► But apparently one of the developers behind it is the guy who made Homebrew, which is

01:17:12 ◼   ► a package manager, open source package manager for OS X.

01:17:15 ◼   ► His name is Max Howell.

01:17:17 ◼   ► And the reason this came up in our little circles is he had some snarky tweets about

01:17:24 ◼   ► Google not hiring him.

01:17:25 ◼   ► Like he interviewed Google and apparently Google did not want him and Max felt like

01:17:31 ◼   ► they didn't want him for dumb reasons.

01:17:34 ◼   ► Regardless of why Google didn't want him, they didn't and Apple hired him and used him

01:17:38 ◼   ► to write "used him" and had him write a package manager for Swift.

01:17:42 ◼   ► And considering he wrote homebrew, which is a pretty popular package manager for OS X,

01:17:46 ◼   ► He probably has some significant experience writing package managers, so hopefully he

01:17:50 ◼   ► did an even better job on the second one.

01:17:54 ◼   ► And his complaint was basically like, they wanted me to do computer science-y stuff and

01:17:59 ◼   ► they wouldn't hire me even though they use Homebrew in Google.

01:18:03 ◼   ► Like, so your employees are using my software but they won't hire me because I can't do

01:18:06 ◼   ► some weird computer science-y tree-ish thing in an interview.

01:18:09 ◼   ► At least that's his perception of why he wasn't hired.

01:18:12 ◼   ► And I've always thought that that type of interview, not Google specifically, because

01:18:16 ◼   ► their hiring has changed over the years and I'm not sure what it's like these days, but

01:18:19 ◼   ► that type of hiring thing, not the puzzle hiring, but where you interview people and

01:18:24 ◼   ► you want them to demonstrate their knowledge of theoretical computer science concepts,

01:18:30 ◼   ► there's value in that.

01:18:33 ◼   ► But I feel like you have to hire based on a balance of things.

01:18:36 ◼   ► So maybe hire some guy who is really strong academically and knows a lot of the conceptual

01:18:41 ◼   ► stuff but has never really written a working program in his life. He's like, "Well, on

01:18:45 ◼   ► the balance, he's not a great programmer, and maybe he doesn't even know the language

01:18:49 ◼   ► you want him to write in, but conceptually he knows some really important and heavy-duty

01:18:54 ◼   ► things. So that guy is the hire." The other side of that is, maybe this guy doesn't even

01:18:59 ◼   ► have a degree. Maybe he dropped out of high school for all we know, but he's written,

01:19:04 ◼   ► he has a history of work, of products, of actual software that people use, that maybe

01:19:08 ◼   ► we even use that shows he knows how to create a good working product that people like. But

01:19:13 ◼   ► he doesn't know anything about computer science theory. Maybe that guy on balance should also

01:19:17 ◼   ► be a hire. If you just say there's a minimum bar and you gotta know this minimum theoretical

01:19:22 ◼   ► stuff and we don't care if you have any practical skill, you'll end up with a bunch of like

01:19:26 ◼   ► just cats wandering around in your office thinking deep thoughts and never getting anything

01:19:30 ◼   ► done. And so I'm glad to see that Apple's hiring process recognized, you know, and obviously

01:19:37 ◼   ► was selecting for different things.

01:19:39 ◼   ► And I mean, really, the hiring process can possibly be like, "Homebrew.

01:19:42 ◼   ► We've heard homebrew.

01:19:43 ◼   ► That's pretty cool."

01:19:44 ◼   ► And then you just make sure he's not a crazy person and that he can get along with people

01:19:47 ◼   ► and that he's interested in doing what you want him to do, which maybe is write a package

01:19:50 ◼   ► manager for Swift.

01:19:51 ◼   ► And great, you're hired.

01:19:52 ◼   ► So I think this is a win for Apple and a loss for Google.

01:19:57 ◼   ► Not that Google necessarily needed him to write a package manager for them or something,

01:20:00 ◼   ► but I've just always thought that their hiring is slightly unbalanced in terms of...

01:20:05 ◼   ► And again, like, maybe their whole thing was like, it's worse for us to have a bad hire

01:20:09 ◼   ► than to skip a good hire.

01:20:10 ◼   ► So maybe it's working exactly as designed.

01:20:12 ◼   ► And that there was that study or whatever that went around the web recently that like,

01:20:17 ◼   ► one bad hire is much more costly than missing out on a good hire.

01:20:21 ◼   ► So that could be Google's policy as well.

01:20:22 ◼   ► So maybe everything's working out for everybody, but it just seemed like a happy ending to

01:20:26 ◼   ► what could have been a sad story of this guy who's obviously got some skills and he found

01:20:31 ◼   ► a good home in Apple.

01:20:32 ◼   ► Indeed.

01:20:33 ◼   ► Have you had a chance to look into the Swift 3.0 goals because there's a whole I

01:20:39 ◼   ► Guess this is a repo that is Swift evolution that talks about among other things

01:20:44 ◼   ► What's going to be happening in Swift 3?

01:20:47 ◼   ► Yeah, that's an ongoing thing

01:20:49 ◼   ► There's a mailing list which I subscribe to and it's such high volume that I can't I can't keep up with it

01:20:55 ◼   ► Like not only do I have to have it filtered somewhere

01:20:57 ◼   ► But I tried subscribing to the digest version because I can't handle the activity

01:21:01 ◼   ► I keep thinking it's gonna die down, but boy, yeah, they're

01:21:05 ◼   ► 3.0 the goals for the run Oh is still up in the air

01:21:09 ◼   ► People are still thinking of things people are proposing like, you know major things right now

01:21:14 ◼   ► like you're more significant than getting rid of classic for loops and

01:21:17 ◼   ► You know a plus plus and minus minus much more significant

01:21:21 ◼   ► I'm assuming most of them will not be adopted

01:21:23 ◼   ► But the fact that that's how that's what the discussion is that these are being entertained and discussed

01:21:28 ◼   ► It's a little bit scary and it's like haven't we nailed things down more than that by now?

01:21:32 ◼   ► Maybe we haven't maybe this is just exuberance of activity

01:21:36 ◼   ► But it's exciting to see it happening in real time and you can contribute to it

01:21:39 ◼   ► If you're not a dummy like me and respond to the digest version and forget to put a subject line in so your first post to

01:21:44 ◼   ► The manualist has no subject, but you don't do that

01:21:46 ◼   ► Yeah, it's the worst. I

01:21:49 ◼   ► Even have undo send on Gmail. It just took me too long to notice that the little undo thing went away

01:21:54 ◼   ► I need a longer timer because I'm old and stupid

01:21:56 ◼   ► But yeah, the only thing they would say were hard and fast is the things they say are out.

01:22:02 ◼   ► Language level concurrency, not in 3.0.

01:22:05 ◼   ► And it's good to draw that line because that's a whole can of worms.

01:22:12 ◼   ► But minor things, you can see them happening in real time.

01:22:15 ◼   ► Subscribe to the mailing list and just try to read the messages that come up there every

01:22:19 ◼   ► day.

01:22:20 ◼   ► And there's a process, there's a proposal process, there's a discussion.

01:22:23 ◼   ► gets to contribute to the discussion.

01:22:28 ◼   ► Effectively because if you're not going to implement the feature yourself or if Apple's

01:22:33 ◼   ► not going to adopt it, effectively Apple is still in charge of this whole thing.

01:22:36 ◼   ► It's not as if it's a democracy and if we all vote for some silly feature that Apple

01:22:40 ◼   ► doesn't want, then they're not going to have it.

01:22:42 ◼   ► But that's the nature of open source.

01:22:44 ◼   ► If everyone in the community, literally everyone in the community, wants classic four-loops

01:22:48 ◼   ► backs and Apple doesn't, the community can just fork it and go ahead.

01:22:51 ◼   ► Now you're the developer of Swift.

01:22:54 ◼   ► Develop your fork, give it a different name, go nuts.

01:22:57 ◼   ► That's the magic of open source.

01:22:58 ◼   ► But for now, everyone seems to be singing Kumbaya and be perfectly willing to throw

01:23:03 ◼   ► a million proposals at Apple and discuss them at length and then just trust that Apple is

01:23:08 ◼   ► going to pick the ones that it both thinks are useful and have reasonable support.

01:23:12 ◼   ► Yup.

01:23:13 ◼   ► And to hear more of Jon talking like this, I highly suggest that everybody listen to

01:23:17 ◼   ► the talk show episode from this past week featuring Craig Federighi and our friend Jon

01:23:23 ◼   ► here because honestly, like, you know, the Federighi part was big news but honestly,

01:23:27 ◼   ► Jon, I thought your segment was really, really great. You really, really killed it, so good

01:23:33 ◼   ► job there. And I definitely recommend for all listeners, if you're interested in hearing

01:23:36 ◼   ► about Swift being open source, you must listen to that episode of the talk show. It is long

01:23:41 ◼   ► but it is worth it.

01:23:42 ◼   ► >> And it helps if you're a programmer because, yeah, sometimes I feel bad when I go off and

01:23:46 ◼   ► Even John, at a certain point, his eyes are glazing over, but like, well, you know, it

01:23:50 ◼   ► was an episode about Swift, so.

01:23:52 ◼   ► Indeed.

01:23:53 ◼   ► Anything else about Swift open sourcing that you would like to discuss tonight, or would

01:23:57 ◼   ► you like to hold off for another day?

01:23:58 ◼   ► No, we'll say.

01:23:59 ◼   ► I mean, some of the stuff is aging.

01:24:01 ◼   ► Like, I would say if you want to still keep up on the Swift stuff, just do subscribe to

01:24:05 ◼   ► those mailing lists.

01:24:06 ◼   ► You know, it's the best, like, it's an insane amount of activity.

01:24:11 ◼   ► If you have any interest at all, it might feel like, you know, drinking from a firehose.

01:24:14 ◼   ► The other thing you can do is subscribe to people's blogs.

01:24:17 ◼   ► Like Erica had a post about like,

01:24:19 ◼   ► here are the interesting things that happened

01:24:20 ◼   ► on the Swift Evolution mailing list this week.

01:24:23 ◼   ► Her opinion on the, like,

01:24:25 ◼   ► then you don't have to read a thousand messages.

01:24:26 ◼   ► Someone smart will just pick out the things

01:24:28 ◼   ► that were actually interesting

01:24:29 ◼   ► and you can kind of get a summary.

01:24:30 ◼   ► Like even, that's one of the cool features

01:24:33 ◼   ► of the like the Perl 5 mailing list,

01:24:34 ◼   ► which are actually surprisingly active

01:24:36 ◼   ► given the relative popularity of Perl these days.

01:24:39 ◼   ► But even that is just too much to go through

01:24:41 ◼   ► even when it's only like 10 or 15 people

01:24:42 ◼   ► talking back and forth with each other.

01:24:44 ◼   ► So they would have weekly summaries.

01:24:45 ◼   ► Here's what happened on profile porters this week.

01:24:47 ◼   ► And just kind of a summary of everything literally

01:24:50 ◼   ► rather than just the regular ones.

01:24:51 ◼   ► So if you can't handle the mailing list,

01:24:54 ◼   ► the people in the mailing list

01:24:55 ◼   ► that are contributing the most probably have blogs,

01:24:57 ◼   ► subscribe to their blogs and then you'll

01:24:59 ◼   ► get a one step removed.

01:25:00 ◼   ► But anyway, it's exciting times at Swift and at Apple.

01:25:04 ◼   ► - Yeah, and bringing it back around a little bit

01:25:06 ◼   ► to what we were saying earlier,

01:25:08 ◼   ► as Apple is so big and so now sprawling

01:25:13 ◼   ► and as they keep doing things that, I don't know,

01:25:17 ◼   ► have kind of a mixed appeal to people like us,

01:25:20 ◼   ► or at least me, it was like some things they do

01:25:22 ◼   ► I'm really into, and a lot of things they do I'm really not.

01:25:25 ◼   ► (laughs)

01:25:26 ◼   ► And you know, as this happens,

01:25:28 ◼   ► and as we see them stumble here and there,

01:25:30 ◼   ► and as we see things that aren't as good as they should be

01:25:33 ◼   ► here and there, it is really easy to get really negative

01:25:36 ◼   ► about this stuff, and I've been really kind of fighting that

01:25:39 ◼   ► for a while and trying to figure out how to reverse that

01:25:43 ◼   ► that negativity in me and in the way I feel about it,

01:25:46 ◼   ► the way I talk about it.

01:25:47 ◼   ► And I think one way to do it that I really want

01:25:50 ◼   ► to focus more on is that even though the company

01:25:53 ◼   ► is really big and they do some pretty crappy things

01:25:55 ◼   ► here and there, in my opinion, there are areas like this,

01:26:00 ◼   ► like areas with, like the Swift open sourcing

01:26:02 ◼   ► that's going on now, where they really are doing

01:26:06 ◼   ► really great things.

01:26:07 ◼   ► And even if over time those areas that they're doing

01:26:11 ◼   ► really great work in become a smaller proportion of the things they do, at least in the way

01:26:16 ◼   ► that I care about them. The fact is they are still doing a lot of really good stuff like

01:26:20 ◼   ► that. And I say this on my 5K iMac from last year that I absolutely love, using an OS that

01:26:30 ◼   ► I absolutely love that I get all of my work done on and I don't want to change. So there

01:26:35 ◼   ► There is a lot of good there, and I think the way forward in trying to mature my discussion

01:26:42 ◼   ► about this and trying to minimize the negativity unnecessarily is really just to find the positives,

01:26:48 ◼   ► because they are there.

01:26:49 ◼   ► Yeah, I completely agree.

01:26:52 ◼   ► One final tidbit on speaking of the positive bits about Swift.

01:26:56 ◼   ► This is a tweet from Danny Gregg.

01:26:57 ◼   ► It says, "He kind of loves that the Swift team referenced tweets in their source.

01:27:01 ◼   ► This is the exact opposite of radar or GTFO which is from our

01:27:06 ◼   ► Mike Drowitz coined that he's credited with it. Let's say one of the matches from Apple

01:27:11 ◼   ► many years in the past and today to some degree as well is

01:27:15 ◼   ► So you've cornered some Apple person at WWDC and you're like, oh, there's a bug in your API

01:27:20 ◼   ► You're responsible for the whatever library

01:27:22 ◼   ► Well when you do this with the whatever library this thing happens or whatever and Apple people would say you have to file a radar

01:27:27 ◼   ► You can't just tell me you can't just like shout at me in the hallway and tell me that if you pass nil for this

01:27:32 ◼   ► Parameter your crashes right you have to file a radar. That's how we track things. That's our bug tracking system

01:27:37 ◼   ► and

01:27:39 ◼   ► The Swift approach to this is

01:27:41 ◼   ► someone tweets something and

01:27:44 ◼   ► someone on the Swift team sees the tweet and

01:27:47 ◼   ► I guess they make the radar or they add the bug tracking issue or whatever and then when they fix it in the source code

01:27:54 ◼   ► They reference the tweet that told them about this crasher

01:27:56 ◼   ► So that's what they're saying Danny Greg is saying in this tweet

01:27:59 ◼   ► They're basically like if you look at the Swift source code

01:28:01 ◼   ► You will find links to tweets saying

01:28:03 ◼   ► This is why we know about this bug this person tweeted this and then we went and fixed it

01:28:08 ◼   ► Which is totally the opposite of you have to go to Apple's official bug trapper and file a radar

01:28:12 ◼   ► It's useless even talking to me and both of them are good advice

01:28:15 ◼   ► It's like you can't really yell at people the whole in wc and expect something you want to if you want to work you got to

01:28:20 ◼   ► work within the system.

01:28:22 ◼   ► But on the other hand, the Swift team is so engaged

01:28:25 ◼   ► in the community that they're stewing in people's tweets

01:28:29 ◼   ► about these things, and if they see a tweet that says,

01:28:31 ◼   ► "Hey, I've got a crash or an this, whatever,"

01:28:32 ◼   ► they will note the tweet and I guess they add it

01:28:35 ◼   ► into their own bug tracker or whatever.

01:28:37 ◼   ► They'll just paste the link to the tweet

01:28:38 ◼   ► into the source code to remind them later

01:28:40 ◼   ► to click on that link to go back to the tweet and say,

01:28:42 ◼   ► "Oh yeah, that's the guy who said they had this thing,"

01:28:43 ◼   ► and follow up with them or whatever.

01:28:45 ◼   ► It is total community engagement all the way down

01:28:48 ◼   ► to the level of referencing tweets that led to bug fixes,

01:28:51 ◼   ► which is fascinating from the perspective of a company

01:28:55 ◼   ► that popularized the term radar or GTFO.

01:28:58 ◼   ► - I think we're good.

01:29:02 ◼   ► - Thanks a lot to our three sponsors this week,

01:29:04 ◼   ► Squarespace, MailRoute and Automattic,

01:29:06 ◼   ► and we will see you next week.

01:29:07 ◼   ► ♪ Now the show is over ♪

01:29:12 ◼   ► ♪ They didn't even mean to begin ♪

01:29:15 ◼   ► ♪ 'Cause it was accidental ♪

01:29:17 ◼   ► ♪ Accidental ♪

01:29:18 ◼   ► Oh it was accidental John didn't do any research

01:29:22 ◼   ► Marco and Casey wouldn't let him Cause it was accidental

01:29:27 ◼   ► Oh it was accidental And you can find the show notes at ATP.FM

01:29:36 ◼   ► And if you're into Twitter You can follow them @C-A-S-E-Y-L-I-S-S

01:29:45 ◼   ► So that's Casey Liss, M-A-R-C-O-A-R-M,

01:29:50 ◼   ► Auntie Marco Armin, S-I-R-A-C, USA, Syracuse.

01:29:57 ◼   ► It's accidental.

01:29:58 ◼   ► It's accidental.

01:30:00 ◼   ► They didn't mean to.

01:30:02 ◼   ► Accidental.

01:30:03 ◼   ► Accidental.

01:30:05 ◼   ► Tech podcast so long.

01:30:08 ◼   ► So the car's name is the X6M.

01:30:14 ◼   ► That's too many letters.

01:30:15 ◼   ► It's not the M6, it's not the 6M, it's the X6M,

01:30:17 ◼   ► because the X6 is the car and this is the M version.

01:30:20 ◼   ► Not the M Sport, but the actual M.

01:30:21 ◼   ► So it is an M car, but it's not an M car,

01:30:23 ◼   ► 'cause the M's at the end.

01:30:25 ◼   ► Anyway, 3.7 seconds to 60.

01:30:27 ◼   ► 3.7 seconds to 60 for basically an SUV.

01:30:31 ◼   ► Look at this thing.

01:30:33 ◼   ► It's like you're making a hippo dance.

01:30:36 ◼   ► It's just, you know, it's amazing that you can do it.

01:30:39 ◼   ► And the Car and Driver review of this,

01:30:40 ◼   ► they had a shootout between these cars,

01:30:42 ◼   ► like this one and whatever the Mercedes one is,

01:30:44 ◼   ► And it was like, these cars shouldn't even exist.

01:30:46 ◼   ► It's unholy that they're able to make it.

01:30:49 ◼   ► But why?

01:30:50 ◼   ► It's fascinating, I guess, but no one

01:30:53 ◼   ► should ever buy these cars.

01:30:54 ◼   ► They make no sense.

01:30:55 ◼   ► And it defies the laws of physics

01:30:57 ◼   ► that you make this thing corner this flat and go this fast,

01:31:01 ◼   ► going through slalom cones and doing handling things

01:31:04 ◼   ► in a thing that's shaped essentially like a Jeep Cherokee

01:31:07 ◼   ► with a little bit lower hood.

01:31:09 ◼   ► It is-- what a world.

01:31:11 ◼   ► And Casey probably wants one, although he

01:31:12 ◼   ► would like the American version better, probably.

01:31:14 ◼   ► But yeah, this car is way too good looking

01:31:16 ◼   ► for Casey to want it.

01:31:17 ◼   ► - No, there is nothing good looking about this car.

01:31:19 ◼   ► - Exactly. - It's hideous.

01:31:21 ◼   ► - I know. - Stop, no.

01:31:23 ◼   ► This is way too ugly for me to ever drive.

01:31:26 ◼   ► - Don't worry, it comes in white.

01:31:28 ◼   ► - Oh my God, I hate you so much.

01:31:30 ◼   ► Although I do love you, Jon,

01:31:32 ◼   ► for knowing the very, very nuanced difference

01:31:35 ◼   ► between an M Sport car and an actual M car.

01:31:37 ◼   ► - How could I not, how could I not?

01:31:39 ◼   ► - Well, spend enough time with us two knuckleheads

01:31:41 ◼   ► and I don't blame you.

01:31:43 ◼   ► And, correlated news, since we've already opened the neutral door, I drove a Tesla.

01:31:48 ◼   ► Yes, so tell us about that.

01:31:50 ◼   ► Dear friend of the show, _DavidSmith has quietly bought his family a Tesla Model S, a 90D.

01:31:58 ◼   ► And he and his family visited this past weekend, very, very briefly, as they were kind of swinging

01:32:03 ◼   ► through Richmond.

01:32:05 ◼   ► He took me for a ride.

01:32:07 ◼   ► And I know this is not the David Smith that I met a few years back, because we got to

01:32:12 ◼   ► the end of my road and at the end of the road that my house is on, it tees onto a pretty

01:32:17 ◼   ► big road.

01:32:18 ◼   ► I don't remember the exact words that were used, but something along the lines of "are

01:32:24 ◼   ► you ready" came from Underscore's mouth.

01:32:26 ◼   ► And you have to understand, kids, that Underscore used to drive a Corolla, and although it was

01:32:32 ◼   ► his idea for Marco and I to join him at the two-day M driving school, I think he was the

01:32:39 ◼   ► least aggressive of the three of us.

01:32:40 ◼   ► Is that fair to say?

01:32:41 ◼   ► Oh, easily.

01:32:42 ◼   ► next thing I know he's saying to me are you ready and

01:32:46 ◼   ► Then he stands on the gas while making a 90-degree turn. It's not the gas. Sorry the throttle. Thank you

01:32:53 ◼   ► Later tonight, I'm gonna tape a show off TV so I can watch it later

01:33:00 ◼   ► God, I don't even know where to go from here. But anyway, so he took me first been

01:33:05 ◼   ► He demonstrated autopilot, which was fascinating and petrifying

01:33:11 ◼   ► He drove reasonably briskly, which made me so happy I cannot even begin to describe it.

01:33:19 ◼   ► And then we got back, we went on like a literally five to ten minute loop, which involved a

01:33:23 ◼   ► little bit of curves, a little bit of travel on a highway, and then a little bit of just

01:33:29 ◼   ► like regular surface roads.

01:33:30 ◼   ► And then he offered for me to drive and do basically the exact same circuit.

01:33:36 ◼   ► First impressions, the car doesn't creep when you come off the gas.

01:33:41 ◼   ► However, there's a setting to turn on creep mode, which is extremely weird.

01:33:47 ◼   ► And I bet they don't call it that though.

01:33:49 ◼   ► No, I believe they do.

01:33:50 ◼   ► I think they might.

01:33:51 ◼   ► Creep mode?

01:33:52 ◼   ► Well, I don't know if it's creep mode.

01:33:53 ◼   ► I see what you're saying now.

01:33:54 ◼   ► I didn't get it at first.

01:33:56 ◼   ► That's a good name for it though, because you really don't want that on.

01:33:59 ◼   ► Right, exactly.

01:34:00 ◼   ► And the funny thing was Underscore said to me, "Well, you know, this is going to be more

01:34:03 ◼   ► like your car, which doesn't really creep when you come off the brake."

01:34:06 ◼   ► Which in general is true.

01:34:09 ◼   ► But my brain was in automatic mode, where if you come off the brake, you're going to

01:34:14 ◼   ► move forward.

01:34:15 ◼   ► And it didn't take long for me to get used to the creep not being there, but it was peculiar

01:34:19 ◼   ► because my brain had to like balance this threshold between driving a stick and driving

01:34:25 ◼   ► automatic, which is very peculiar.

01:34:27 ◼   ► He spent a long time, and I'm genuinely glad he did, explaining to me how freaking weird

01:34:33 ◼   ► regenerative braking is.

01:34:36 ◼   ► And you know what?

01:34:37 ◼   ► It's freaking weird.

01:34:38 ◼   ► (laughing)

01:34:40 ◼   ► - That's an option too, by the way.

01:34:41 ◼   ► You can turn off the one foot driving mode,

01:34:43 ◼   ► but it's stupid because you're losing power,

01:34:45 ◼   ► so don't turn it off, just get used to it.

01:34:47 ◼   ► - Yeah, you can turn that down.

01:34:49 ◼   ► - Yeah, I was about to say, just like Marco just said,

01:34:51 ◼   ► you can also turn it down.

01:34:52 ◼   ► I think there were three settings.

01:34:53 ◼   ► I think it's off, medium, and high

01:34:54 ◼   ► or something along those lines.

01:34:56 ◼   ► - I mean, the funny thing is,

01:34:56 ◼   ► it was really easy for me to drive Teslas

01:34:59 ◼   ► because my car with the DCT doesn't creep.

01:35:02 ◼   ► - Oh, that's true.

01:35:03 ◼   ► - And it has so much engine vacuum

01:35:06 ◼   ► when you let off the gas

01:35:08 ◼   ► that it really pulls you back,

01:35:10 ◼   ► almost like regenerative braking.

01:35:11 ◼   ► So like, in the settings you were using,

01:35:14 ◼   ► it actually feels a lot like my car.

01:35:16 ◼   ► - That's true.

01:35:17 ◼   ► - When you're doing that,

01:35:18 ◼   ► you're not getting any gas back from it.

01:35:19 ◼   ► - No. (laughing)

01:35:20 ◼   ► - All you're doing is saving on brake wear

01:35:22 ◼   ► on your horrendously expensive brakes.

01:35:24 ◼   ► - Yeah, that's right.

01:35:25 ◼   ► They just need to last to the end of the lease.

01:35:26 ◼   ► - Oh God, what's the countdown?

01:35:28 ◼   ► - I don't know, four months, something like that?

01:35:30 ◼   ► - Fair enough.

01:35:31 ◼   ► So we eventually take off,

01:35:33 ◼   ► and I got halfway down my little neighborhood street,

01:35:37 ◼   ► And I got going just a hint too quickly,

01:35:40 ◼   ► so I could feel the regenerative braking.

01:35:42 ◼   ► And it is weird, man.

01:35:43 ◼   ► It's not that terribly dissimilar

01:35:46 ◼   ► from driving a Wrangler at speed,

01:35:48 ◼   ► where if you take your foot off the gas,

01:35:50 ◼   ► you would just suddenly kind of stop.

01:35:51 ◼   ► But the difference here again is instead of it being

01:35:55 ◼   ► because there's so much wind resistance

01:35:57 ◼   ► against this rolling box,

01:35:59 ◼   ► in this case it's because like you were saying, John,

01:36:01 ◼   ► you are actually recovering electricity,

01:36:04 ◼   ► which is really cool.

01:36:05 ◼   ► And so what ended up happening was

01:36:06 ◼   ► didn't take me too long to, as one of you just said, drive with basically only one foot.

01:36:11 ◼   ► And it's weird. I liked it. It was kind of a fun game. But it is weird.

01:36:18 ◼   ► That being said, I eventually got onto a larger road and, you know, kind of was creeping a

01:36:23 ◼   ► little bit. And then I stood on the accelerator, or throttle, if you will, and, by God, the

01:36:33 ◼   ► The closest thing I can—the closest analogy I can make is, imagine a turbocharged car

01:36:40 ◼   ► like mine, or like Marco's, where you're in a relatively low gear at reasonably quick

01:36:48 ◼   ► speeds.

01:36:49 ◼   ► So say I'm in, like, second gear at, like, 50 or 60 miles an hour.

01:36:53 ◼   ► So if I stand on the gas at that point, presumably the turbo is already providing boost, and

01:36:59 ◼   ► And if I stand on the gas, I'm gonna go, and I'm gonna go with quickness.

01:37:03 ◼   ► Well, a relative quickness, given that I'm burning dead dinosaurs.

01:37:09 ◼   ► This thing, however, felt like that from a stop.

01:37:13 ◼   ► From any speed.

01:37:14 ◼   ► From any speed, there was instant infinite power.

01:37:18 ◼   ► And the 90D, as I said to Marco after I drove it, it is sufficiently fast.

01:37:25 ◼   ► Now, as I also said to Marco, I'm not used to Marco being satisfied with sufficient,

01:37:31 ◼   ► but it was, without question, sufficiently fast.

01:37:35 ◼   ► - Told you so.

01:37:36 ◼   ► - It is absolutely true.

01:37:38 ◼   ► I still think you're gonna get the performance version, but it is sufficiently fast.

01:37:42 ◼   ► - I actually have to decide, like, this week what I'm getting.

01:37:45 ◼   ► - Oh, really?

01:37:46 ◼   ► - So, I was just looking at the configuration today, like, "Mm, should I just go performance

01:37:50 ◼   ► anyway?"

01:37:52 ◼   ► and I'm thinking, I still think probably not,

01:37:55 ◼   ► but I was tempted, just to let you know,

01:37:57 ◼   ► I was tempted by it.

01:37:59 ◼   ► One thing that I learned while browsing around

01:38:02 ◼   ► their forums, which, hmm.

01:38:05 ◼   ► (laughing)

01:38:06 ◼   ► I've seen a lot of internet communities in my time so far,

01:38:10 ◼   ► and the Tesla forums are not among the most helpful

01:38:15 ◼   ► that I have seen, but one thing that I learned

01:38:22 ◼   ► from these random strangers of very mixed credibility

01:38:26 ◼   ► and relevance skills and writing skills

01:38:30 ◼   ► on a page that loads incredibly slowly

01:38:33 ◼   ► because what year is this?

01:38:35 ◼   ► Anyway, on the official Tesla forums,

01:38:37 ◼   ► I learned that apparently the quoted range that you get

01:38:42 ◼   ► goes down pretty hard over time.

01:38:45 ◼   ► It says you lose like three to five percent a year,

01:38:48 ◼   ► which sounds like a lot.

01:38:50 ◼   ► And the range upgrade to go from 85 to 90D is only 6%.

01:38:55 ◼   ► And the difference between the non-P and the P version

01:39:01 ◼   ► in battery is something like 20%.

01:39:04 ◼   ► So it's actually, it's a pretty big difference.

01:39:07 ◼   ► And so I wonder, I think maybe I really might want

01:39:11 ◼   ► the maximum range and to not get the P version,

01:39:14 ◼   ► if for no other reason, which there are other good reasons

01:39:16 ◼   ► not to get it, but if for no other reason

01:39:18 ◼   ► than to really maximize my initial range

01:39:19 ◼   ► because I'm not even gonna be getting that in two years.

01:39:23 ◼   ► But to give myself more padding on the range.

01:39:26 ◼   ► - Take it to an Apple store,

01:39:27 ◼   ► you get the battery swap for $99, right?

01:39:29 ◼   ► Something like that.

01:39:30 ◼   ► - Only in the world of lithium ion batteries

01:39:32 ◼   ► that just like the ones on your phone,

01:39:33 ◼   ► they get crappier as you use them.

01:39:35 ◼   ► - It's funny you bring that up

01:39:36 ◼   ► because Dave made a couple of interesting points.

01:39:39 ◼   ► The first thing he said was,

01:39:42 ◼   ► if you were going to buy one, which I'm not,

01:39:44 ◼   ► but if you're going to buy one,

01:39:45 ◼   ► it makes it-- - You will.

01:39:47 ◼   ► Three years.

01:39:48 ◼   ► - It's too much money.

01:39:49 ◼   ► If it was affordable, it would have already happened.

01:39:51 ◼   ► I would have traded in my car already.

01:39:52 ◼   ► Same thing about Apple products, same thing about BMWs.

01:39:56 ◼   ► I think the Tesla is slightly more expensive

01:39:59 ◼   ► than the average car than a Mac is than the average PC.

01:40:01 ◼   ► Exactly.

01:40:02 ◼   ► Thank you, John.

01:40:03 ◼   ► In terms of absolute values, if not percentages.

01:40:06 ◼   ► Let's see what happens when the Model 3 comes out.

01:40:08 ◼   ► Right.

01:40:09 ◼   ► We'll see.

01:40:10 ◼   ► But anyway, he made an interesting point,

01:40:12 ◼   ► which was the way this technology is

01:40:14 ◼   ► and with the way the batteries are,

01:40:17 ◼   ► It would probably be a pretty dumb idea to purchase one rather than lease one.

01:40:22 ◼   ► And I've never had a lease in my life, and they seem in a lot of ways like a complete

01:40:26 ◼   ► waste of money to me, but I think he's probably right in this case, that it seems like it

01:40:31 ◼   ► would be silly to purchase a car where when you fill the tank, so to speak, in three or

01:40:38 ◼   ► four years, you will not be able to fill it as high as you were once able to when it was

01:40:42 ◼   ► new.

01:40:43 ◼   ► the plan for the quick charge stations instead of the supercharger that they would take the

01:40:48 ◼   ► battery out and give you a new one? I don't know if that's a thing anymore, but I do remember

01:40:52 ◼   ► that plan. I mean, it wouldn't be a new one, it would just be a different one. Yeah, it's

01:40:55 ◼   ► like getting propane cylinders at the hardware store. You might get a new one, but chances

01:41:00 ◼   ► are you're getting someone's old rusty one. Yeah, I mean, because it's like, what is it?

01:41:03 ◼   ► That's the majority of the cost in the car, obviously, is the big honking battery, and

01:41:06 ◼   ► so there's no avoiding the fact that they're going to get old and they're going to get

01:41:09 ◼   ► crappier and yeah, the lease starts to make sense in that scenario. But the problem is

01:41:13 ◼   ► then when the lease is up, do you lease another one? Like they're not gonna, I guess there's

01:41:17 ◼   ► gonna be a secondary market for them, but at a certain point the battery is crap. Like,

01:41:23 ◼   ► you know, if, just, we haven't been around long enough, like, I guess we could find some

01:41:27 ◼   ► Tesla Roadster and see like, are there Tesla Roadsters out there that just no one wants?

01:41:33 ◼   ► Because it's like, it's like selling a car with a seized engine. It's like, yeah, it's

01:41:36 ◼   ► It's fine, but you just need a new engine.

01:41:38 ◼   ► Yeah, it's fine, but you just need

01:41:39 ◼   ► a new $50,000 battery pack.

01:41:41 ◼   ► - Yeah, this is not a car that I would want to own outright

01:41:44 ◼   ► just because it is changing so much still.

01:41:48 ◼   ► The Model S has only been around for what,

01:41:50 ◼   ► three or four years, so it hasn't been that long, right?

01:41:53 ◼   ► So we still don't really know what the used market is.

01:41:56 ◼   ► When they guess a lease residual,

01:41:58 ◼   ► they really are just kinda guessing it.

01:42:00 ◼   ► So by leasing, you're putting the risk on Tesla,

01:42:04 ◼   ► not on you.

01:42:05 ◼   ► and I think for a product this young

01:42:07 ◼   ► that's advancing so quickly,

01:42:09 ◼   ► plus they keep advancing the features

01:42:12 ◼   ► and the hardware that's available in the car.

01:42:15 ◼   ► In six months after I get mine,

01:42:18 ◼   ► there's gonna be some massive new feature

01:42:20 ◼   ► that my car can't do that I'm gonna want.

01:42:22 ◼   ► 'Cause they make things so quickly,

01:42:25 ◼   ► it isn't even on a yearly schedule.

01:42:27 ◼   ► They put stuff out every four months,

01:42:28 ◼   ► like just new features, new changes,

01:42:30 ◼   ► and some of them are software

01:42:31 ◼   ► that the previous cars can get,

01:42:33 ◼   ► and some of them aren't.

01:42:35 ◼   ► So it really is updated as often as a computer is updated,

01:42:39 ◼   ► like with new features and new capabilities

01:42:41 ◼   ► and new hardware.

01:42:42 ◼   ► And so do you really wanna be using a six-year-old one?

01:42:45 ◼   ► Like maybe not.

01:42:46 ◼   ► If you care about all the cool new stuff they keep adding,

01:42:49 ◼   ► I think a lease really does make a lot of sense,

01:42:51 ◼   ► and especially for a car that's this young

01:42:53 ◼   ► in its development cycle,

01:42:55 ◼   ► for an industry that's this young,

01:42:56 ◼   ► like the whole electric car industry,

01:42:58 ◼   ► you don't know what it's gonna be like in three years,

01:43:01 ◼   ► you don't know what the market for these cars

01:43:03 ◼   ► will be like in three years

01:43:04 ◼   ► easy it will be to sell one, or what long-term maintenance might cost.

01:43:09 ◼   ► All those are still such unknowns that leasing makes a lot of sense.

01:43:13 ◼   ► Yeah, I agree.

01:43:14 ◼   ► The other interesting point that Underscore made, and I didn't know this was a thing,

01:43:20 ◼   ► but apparently whatever flavor of battery is in the Tesla, it is understood that charging

01:43:27 ◼   ► it only to about 80 or 90 percent—I forget exactly what it was—is better for the battery

01:43:32 ◼   ► than charging it all the way to 100%. And so apparently what you can do is you can say

01:43:38 ◼   ► to the car, "You know what? Generally speaking, I just charged 80%. It's not—I'm just going

01:43:43 ◼   ► to be around town. It's fine." And then you can request or tell it to do a full max range

01:43:50 ◼   ► charge in the instances that you're about to go on a road trip or something like that,

01:43:54 ◼   ► which I just thought was fascinating.

01:43:55 ◼   ► Is this the extension of the BMWs where you have settings for every possible thing? Like

01:43:59 ◼   ► Like Tesla, it's all settings, settings all the way down.

01:44:03 ◼   ► It's all computers and electronics.

01:44:05 ◼   ► Like they've taken it to the final,

01:44:06 ◼   ► like BMW sounds like they were always taking to like,

01:44:09 ◼   ► the things you can't adjust in other cars,

01:44:10 ◼   ► you can adjust in the BMW,

01:44:12 ◼   ► but some things that you can't adjust at all, right?

01:44:14 ◼   ► And Tesla's like, everything's up for grabs.

01:44:17 ◼   ► Maybe if you want, when you turn the steering wheel to the left,

01:44:19 ◼   ► the wheels go right, it's a setting.

01:44:20 ◼   ► Probably not that one, but they could probably do it

01:44:24 ◼   ► 'cause it's electric power steering.

01:44:25 ◼   ► - Yeah, it's ridiculous.

01:44:27 ◼   ► The touchscreen in the center, visually, just the-- I mean, with the screen off, like, just

01:44:33 ◼   ► visually having a 17-inch monitor in the center of the car looks ridiculous and I hate it.

01:44:38 ◼   ► However, it did not take long for me to start to appreciate what that affords you, having

01:44:43 ◼   ► this humongous screen in the center of the car.

01:44:46 ◼   ► Like having a navigation screen that is mammoth.

01:44:50 ◼   ► Being able to go to pain, like, so you can split it in half so that the thing is mounted

01:44:54 ◼   ► and portrait orientation, but you can split it in half so you have like a top half and

01:44:58 ◼   ► a bottom half and do two wildly different things on them.

01:45:01 ◼   ► I thought the touchscreen was reasonably responsive.

01:45:03 ◼   ► I didn't think it was bad.