ATP

00:00:00 ◼   ► every single person on Twitter is telling me

00:00:04 ◼   ► about the Bernie Sanders fish thing.

00:00:06 ◼   ► Didn't that happen like a day or two ago?

00:00:07 ◼   ► I don't know.

00:00:08 ◼   ► - Well, you can lump them in with all the people

00:00:11 ◼   ► telling me about the latest aftermarket Ferrari

00:00:14 ◼   ► with my name on it.

00:00:15 ◼   ► - We gotta talk about that.

00:00:16 ◼   ► This could be our pre-show neutral.

00:00:18 ◼   ► There is a Ferrari, now how do they say it?

00:00:21 ◼   ► Is it Syracuse or do they say it a different way?

00:00:24 ◼   ► - This is not a new thing.

00:00:25 ◼   ► this company has done this to every mid-engine V8 Ferrari for like the past three generations.

00:00:32 ◼   ► Like it's not, they always look yellow and black, they're always kind of gaudy, they

00:00:36 ◼   ► always have that same name.

00:00:37 ◼   ► They always have the name "Saracusa"?

00:00:38 ◼   ► Yeah, well, it's some, what's the first part, so it's an M or something?

00:00:42 ◼   ► Masonry.

00:00:43 ◼   ► It's like an aftermarket tuner, like, uh, like, uh...

00:00:45 ◼   ► Like Ruff?

00:00:46 ◼   ► Yeah, or, uh, what's the BMW almost, what's the D?

00:00:48 ◼   ► Dinan, Dinan, I don't know how it's said.

00:00:50 ◼   ► Dinan is how I've always pronounced it.

00:00:51 ◼   ► It's pronounced "Saracusa".

00:00:52 ◼   ► for Mustangs and, you know, anyway, they do this all the time, but you know, every time

00:00:58 ◼   ► it comes out, someone sees it for the first time and they tell me about it.

00:01:02 ◼   ► I've never seen this before. You have? I have sent you the picture of,

00:01:05 ◼   ► like, the 458 version. I've never seen it either.

00:01:08 ◼   ► I'm telling you, I don't think you've said this the last time.

00:01:10 ◼   ► I think I also sent you the – maybe the one – I didn't know you before that, but

00:01:14 ◼   ► you've seen it before. Mm-hmm.

00:01:15 ◼   ► All right, so it's just like an aftermarket modder that mods and resells messed up Ferraris

00:01:21 ◼   ► with your name on them?

00:01:22 ◼   ► >> JEAN-MICHELLE DERIENZO-MARTIN Yep. Cool. All right.

00:01:23 ◼   ► >> JEAN-MICHELLE DERIENZO-MARTIN And there are—and there are always yellow and black,

00:01:25 ◼   ► which some people find gaudy, so do I. Like, I would never pick those colors, but I don't

00:01:29 ◼   ► think they're as hideous as a lot of people do. I mean, it's like, if you're going

00:01:31 ◼   ► to go yellow and black, it's sure as hell as yellow and black, isn't it? I mean, it's

00:01:35 ◼   ► like the, you know, lime green Lamborghinis or whatever. Like, some people—some people

00:01:38 ◼   ► like that for their exotic cars.

00:01:40 ◼   ► >> JEAN-MICHELLE DERIENZO-MARTIN Out of curiosity, so like, kind of like the

00:01:42 ◼   ► passed the John test here. If you were given one of these, would you sell it for a different

00:01:47 ◼   ► one? Or would you keep this one?

00:01:49 ◼   ► - Sell, sell, sell, sell.

00:01:50 ◼   ► - Okay.

00:01:51 ◼   ► (laughing)

00:01:52 ◼   ► - Because like, I mean, you'd get good money for it. It would have no miles on it. It would

00:01:56 ◼   ► be brand new. And these specially modified ones, like they do, people who want this,

00:02:00 ◼   ► you know, they're all lightened and have extra carbon fiber in them and all this stuff, you'd

00:02:03 ◼   ► get good money for it. You could buy a standard. I would rather have a box stock boring red

00:02:08 ◼   ► one than this.

00:02:10 ◼   ► You know, I like to think in my peaceful, happy place in my mind that people who would

00:02:16 ◼   ► have the means to buy a Ferrari like this would have better taste than to choose this

00:02:22 ◼   ► one.

00:02:23 ◼   ► But I don't think it's that bad.

00:02:25 ◼   ► I don't think it's untasteful.

00:02:27 ◼   ► For example, I think the baby food, metallic orange, weird, mustardy kind of yellow BMWs

00:02:35 ◼   ► are unpleasing.

00:02:37 ◼   ► this looks like a matchbox car. If you're going for that look, don't go halfway. If

00:02:44 ◼   ► you want to have fins and flares and extreme contrasting colors, this is that, and it is

00:02:50 ◼   ► a reasonable execution of that. I think it is a valid aesthetic. It's like the old difference

00:02:56 ◼   ► between Lamborghini and Ferrari. Lamborghini was always how many intakes and ducts and

00:03:02 ◼   ► sharp angles and fins and wedges and stuff when we put on there, and Ferrari was a little

00:03:06 ◼   ► bit smoother, and this is kind of like taking a Ferrari and going in the Lamborghini direction.

00:03:10 ◼   ► So I don't think it's actually ugly. I just think it's too loud for my taste, but I think

00:03:15 ◼   ► it is a competent execution of that style.

00:03:18 ◼   ► So if you were given one, immediately sell?

00:03:21 ◼   ► Yep. I think I would too.

00:03:23 ◼   ► I absolutely would, but my—

00:03:25 ◼   ► I mean, it's worth good money. Like, you would get more money than selling a regular

00:03:28 ◼   ► one, because it is more rare, and it has desirable characteristics for people who want to race

00:03:33 ◼   ► them or whatever you want to do with this thing.

00:03:34 ◼   ► I don't know, sometimes mods make something less valuable. I would venture to say that

00:03:39 ◼   ► most mods make cars less valuable.

00:03:42 ◼   ► For aftermarket things, like again, if you got a BMW with a bunch of aftermarket modifications,

00:03:47 ◼   ► that is desirable for anyone who wants an aftermarket modified BMW. They will give you

00:03:51 ◼   ► more money than a fresh off the lot stock BMW.

00:03:55 ◼   ► When I did buy a used BMW, I specifically sought one out that was unmodified. And then

00:04:03 ◼   ► When I went, I had to drive to Maryland to see the one I found, and the windows were

00:04:08 ◼   ► all tinted.

00:04:09 ◼   ► I'm like, "Oh, shit.

00:04:10 ◼   ► I didn't want that."

00:04:11 ◼   ► But I figured that's easy to undo, so I bought that one, brought it home, and immediately

00:04:16 ◼   ► brought it to a tint place to remove all the tint.

00:04:18 ◼   ► I didn't know that.

00:04:19 ◼   ► Is that right?

00:04:20 ◼   ► Yeah, yeah.

00:04:21 ◼   ► That was the one.

00:04:22 ◼   ► Well, it was chipped also.

00:04:23 ◼   ► It was ECU modded.

00:04:24 ◼   ► So, I don't know.

00:04:25 ◼   ► I'm not a modder, so I don't really understand the whole deal with it or the whole culture

00:04:30 ◼   ► behind it.

00:04:31 ◼   ► So I just assume that it's just not for me.

00:04:33 ◼   ► - Well, you know, it depends on what you're after, right?

00:04:36 ◼   ► Like, I agree with you that I would never, ever, ever

00:04:39 ◼   ► buy a car that I've known to be modified.

00:04:42 ◼   ► But that being said, I put a chip in my car,

00:04:46 ◼   ► which is to say, I mean, I say put a chip in it.

00:04:49 ◼   ► It's all software, you know, there's no physical bits to it.

00:04:52 ◼   ► But I did that to my car.

00:04:54 ◼   ► I have a Cobb on it, and I like it, but--

00:04:58 ◼   ► - A what? - It's a Cobb.

00:04:59 ◼   ► It's COBB. It's the company that has a box that lets you reprogram the computer.

00:05:08 ◼   ► And so that's what I've done to my car. And it's better, for sure. It's faster, and I

00:05:11 ◼   ► like it. But I wouldn't say that it's night and day better. And this is the first car

00:05:16 ◼   ► I can remember that I've done any sort of real modification to. I've never tinted a

00:05:20 ◼   ► car even though I kind of would like to, but eh, it's not worth it. I've never put aftermarket

00:05:25 ◼   ► wheels on a car. Oof, not worth that.

00:05:28 ◼   ► You should have seen how ridiculous I looked getting out of a car with black tinted windows.

00:05:33 ◼   ► I actually kind of am sad that I didn't.

00:05:36 ◼   ► It lasted less than a week.

00:05:38 ◼   ► That was literally the first thing I did when I brought her home.

00:05:41 ◼   ► I drove it home and I think that same day I called a tint place to schedule an appointment

00:05:45 ◼   ► to get it taken off.

00:05:46 ◼   ► That's not surprising.

00:05:47 ◼   ► Jon, have you ever done any sort of mods to your car?

00:05:50 ◼   ► No, but if I did, I would do the ones like the ones of those day aftermarket tuners that

00:05:54 ◼   ► that I described before, where they do things that try to make the car better.

00:06:00 ◼   ► So lightweight parts, take some part that's heavy and put in a part that is equally strong

00:06:03 ◼   ► but lighter.

00:06:04 ◼   ► That's always good, right?

00:06:06 ◼   ► Or inside the engine, if you could change titanium connecting rods to increase the red

00:06:11 ◼   ► line or whatever.

00:06:13 ◼   ► Those type of modifications seem to be more significant.

00:06:16 ◼   ► Exactly the same things that the M Division does that AMG does or whatever.

00:06:21 ◼   ► that actually make the car better in whatever way you want to make the car better. Less

00:06:26 ◼   ► window tinting and custom paint and ground effects and more of the things that the manufacturer

00:06:32 ◼   ► would do to make the car better. Indeed. Alright, well I'm sad that you would not be a fan of

00:06:39 ◼   ► the Ferrari Syracuse. I don't know what, I mean if the roles were reversed and that was

00:06:43 ◼   ► the Ferrari list, I mean how could you not? Although that would be a terrible name. It's

00:06:46 ◼   ► nice that it has your name all over the thing, but it just, I don't know, that's not what

00:06:50 ◼   ► I want to have a Ferrari. I want it to be red. Call me crazy. What would a Ferrari list

00:06:54 ◼   ► be? I don't even know. Oh, of course! It'd be white. That's it. We're done. Same as it

00:07:03 ◼   ► ever was. You'd get the four-wheel drive one, right? The ugly four-wheel drive one. Oh,

00:07:07 ◼   ► would you two stop? That's what you want. Yeah, that's it. Alright, can we move on to

00:07:12 ◼   ► follow-up? I probably should have done some research about the mono-xamarin confusion,

00:07:19 ◼   ► And we got a handful of emails about this, and I promptly looked at them and said, "Yeah,

00:07:24 ◼   ► it's whatever."

00:07:25 ◼   ► And then I archived them.

00:07:27 ◼   ► Do you want to take a stab, Jon, to explain?

00:07:29 ◼   ► I was going to stop you when you were saying it during this show, but I figured just to

00:07:32 ◼   ► let it slide in normally cares.

00:07:34 ◼   ► But apparently a lot of people care.

00:07:35 ◼   ► I don't know all the details of this, but I at least know that Mono was the name—was

00:07:39 ◼   ► not interchangeable with Xamarin.

00:07:40 ◼   ► Xamarin was a company name, Mono was the name of the open source implementation of .NET,

00:07:45 ◼   ► they're related to each other, but it's not as if Mono became Xamarin.

00:07:50 ◼   ► Some people wrote us things that we talked about on previous shows, that what Xamarin

00:07:53 ◼   ► was doing was making a way for you to write iOS applications by writing in C# to use their

00:07:57 ◼   ► framework and you could deploy to iOS and other platforms and stuff, and Microsoft buying

00:08:01 ◼   ► them, gives them a company that lets you write applications in C# and have them run on more

00:08:06 ◼   ► than just Windows Phone.

00:08:08 ◼   ► Didn't we have a whole show where we talked about that?

00:08:11 ◼   ► What it would be like to write an iOS app in C#?

00:08:15 ◼   ► talked about it a long time ago, so long ago that it's not likely I'm going to bother putting

00:08:19 ◼   ► it in the show notes.

00:08:20 ◼   ► Yeah, but anyway, I think the only people who care are people who already know the intricacies

00:08:24 ◼   ► better than we do, and the people who don't, we can just leave it at, if you want to know

00:08:30 ◼   ► more details about it, look it up. What we said on the last show was a little bit muddled.

00:08:35 ◼   ► But then again, this whole thing I feel like is a little bit muddled, like trying to figure

00:08:38 ◼   ► out what they're doing with this technology, what products does Xamarin have now versus

00:08:42 ◼   ► what is Microsoft buying? They're buying the people, the expertise, do they care, how much

00:08:47 ◼   ► do they care about the products that the company has now versus the company that Microsoft

00:08:51 ◼   ► wants them to build or maybe take what they've already built and modified in one way or another.

00:08:55 ◼   ► And there was this flurry of stories about it. You mentioned something, 2KZ, like the

00:08:59 ◼   ► past few weeks about Microsoft's various projects to let people run applications from other

00:09:07 ◼   ► mobile platforms on Windows Mobile, so like, you know, take your iOS app and run it on

00:09:12 ◼   ► Windows Phone or on Windows 10 or whatever, and we'll run Android apps, or you'll be able

00:09:18 ◼   ► to recompile your Android apps for Windows Phone. I forgot what they were called. Weren't

00:09:23 ◼   ► they all the kinds of like woods, island wood, pine wood, anyway. Obviously we're not keeping

00:09:30 ◼   ► up on all these various projects. A couple of them were canned recently, a couple of

00:09:34 ◼   ► them live on. It's all part of Microsoft's ongoing struggle to figure out how to take

00:09:39 ◼   ► what is by all accounts a reasonable mobile platform, at least as reasonable as Android,

00:09:44 ◼   ► certainly better than Android was in Android's early days, and try to find a way to make

00:09:49 ◼   ► it viable in the market. Because at this point, Android and iOS have so much momentum that

00:09:56 ◼   ► they're just trying to, you know, trying to get customers, trying to get developers. It's

00:10:01 ◼   ► the really tough chicken egg situation that Apple found itself in with the Mac where the

00:10:07 ◼   ► PC just came to dominate and no matter how much better the Mac was, it was just difficult

00:10:11 ◼   ► to get people to develop for it. And one of the strategies people suggested is, oh, Mac

00:10:16 ◼   ► should run Windows programs or it should be easy to write a program for Windows and port

00:10:20 ◼   ► that program to the Mac. And Apple steadfastly held against that saying, no, we don't want

00:10:25 ◼   ► like we don't want people to, we know that might get people to port their applications

00:10:29 ◼   ► those would be crappy Windows ports. We want people to write real Mac applications and

00:10:34 ◼   ► be real Mac developers and do everything the right way. Was that a mistake? Would it have

00:10:40 ◼   ► made no difference? I don't know. It's what Apple did. It's certainly kind of the high

00:10:44 ◼   ► road. Microsoft is kind of trying everything at this point. What if we make it easier for

00:10:48 ◼   ► you to take your iOS application and use some or all of that work to get that same application

00:10:55 ◼   ► running on Windows? Would that help get developers? What if we will run Android apps period? Just

00:10:59 ◼   ► will take the binaries and run them somehow magically. Like, all sorts of ideas to try

00:11:03 ◼   ► to get some traction in the market. To my eyes, as someone who supported Apple's decisions,

00:11:10 ◼   ► not to license Mac OS and everything back in the days, I think those efforts are not

00:11:15 ◼   ► going to help them, but at least they're trying, right?

00:11:18 ◼   ► Yeah, I mean, I guess. So yeah, I'm sorry to the people who are really into Mono and

00:11:23 ◼   ► and Xamarin and this whole ecosystem.

00:11:26 ◼   ► I, like Jon said, it's fairly confusing for me

00:11:29 ◼   ► since I don't live and breathe it to keep it all apart.

00:11:31 ◼   ► And I'm sorry I got that a little bit screwed up.

00:11:35 ◼   ► - I'm sorry to both Windows phone users

00:11:36 ◼   ► for saying something wrong about your platform.

00:11:38 ◼   ► (laughing)

00:11:40 ◼   ► - Please email Marco.

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00:12:57 ◼   ► - So Apple made an oops in the last week.

00:13:01 ◼   ► - Oh, geez, this is bad.

00:13:03 ◼   ► This is so bad.

00:13:05 ◼   ► - It's not that bad, it's funny.

00:13:07 ◼   ► - It's bad.

00:13:08 ◼   ► - The fix was really easy.

00:13:10 ◼   ► All right, so what are we talking about here?

00:13:11 ◼   ► Casey, you're the summarizer.

00:13:13 ◼   ► - I am the summarizer in chief, am I not?

00:13:16 ◼   ► So my understanding of the situation was,

00:13:19 ◼   ► Apple has a mechanism by way they can

00:13:21 ◼   ► blacklist kernel extensions.

00:13:24 ◼   ► And I can't think of any particular examples offhand,

00:13:26 ◼   ► but there are times when a kernel extension will go bad

00:13:29 ◼   ► and they can blacklist it and--

00:13:30 ◼   ► - It's usually used for malware.

00:13:32 ◼   ► Like if they discover some kind of

00:13:33 ◼   ► kernel extension malware,

00:13:35 ◼   ► I think the intention of this system

00:13:37 ◼   ► is for them to be able to very quickly disable it

00:13:41 ◼   ► on all Macs globally within a very short amount of time.

00:13:44 ◼   ► And the other example I think of is the one from this thing,

00:13:47 ◼   ► which is if they have a new version of an extension

00:13:50 ◼   ► because they know the old one, how they can exploit,

00:13:52 ◼   ► or something like their own kernel extensions,

00:13:54 ◼   ► they wanna blacklist the old one

00:13:56 ◼   ► so that people's Macs aren't exploitable

00:13:59 ◼   ► because they'll give you a new one.

00:14:00 ◼   ► Here, use this new one.

00:14:02 ◼   ► And then, by the way, make sure the old one

00:14:03 ◼   ► isn't ever loaded again

00:14:04 ◼   ► 'cause we know there's a problem with that one.

00:14:05 ◼   ► - Yep. - Right.

00:14:06 ◼   ► And this extends, like we're having clarification

00:14:08 ◼   ► from tips from the chat room,

00:14:09 ◼   ► this extends also to binaries, to apps.

00:14:12 ◼   ► If they can blacklist any binary

00:14:14 ◼   ► that is deemed malware.

00:14:16 ◼   ► And so it really is a very good feature for malware

00:14:20 ◼   ► to prevent the spread of it

00:14:21 ◼   ► and to disable stuff that gets out there.

00:14:23 ◼   ► So it's a good feature that I'm glad it's there.

00:14:27 ◼   ► However, they messed something up this time.

00:14:29 ◼   ► - Yeah, so it's important to note

00:14:31 ◼   ► that these blacklist entries can ride

00:14:35 ◼   ► without doing a formal software update.

00:14:38 ◼   ► Of course, it's still some sort of software update

00:14:41 ◼   ► that's happening behind the scenes,

00:14:42 ◼   ► But the key is that it's happening behind the scenes.

00:14:45 ◼   ► And so without any user intervention, you can just have this update, this blacklist

00:14:50 ◼   ► update happen to you, and things that are blacklisted will just magically go away.

00:14:56 ◼   ► Well, I didn't really think much of this, or maybe I didn't even know about it, but

00:15:00 ◼   ► then a few days ago, I could swear I saw Jason Snell saying, "All of a sudden my iMac's

00:15:06 ◼   ► Ethernet port isn't working anymore.

00:15:09 ◼   ► Is anyone else seeing this?

00:15:10 ◼   ► What's going on here?"

00:15:12 ◼   ► Mine was working on my night on my iMac so I didn't think much of it and then fast forward about 24 hours

00:15:17 ◼   ► And it turns out that Apple blacklisted their own ethernet driver

00:15:22 ◼   ► Whoops without shipping a replacement because that was that's that's my understanding is that's where this went wrong

00:15:29 ◼   ► They had a new version of this driver. It's coming with like 1011 for or whatever which is not out yet. I think still

00:15:34 ◼   ► And

00:15:38 ◼   ► So they blacklisted the old one and there you know

00:15:41 ◼   ► You're supposed to get the blacklist at the same time you get the upgrade to the new one

00:15:43 ◼   ► But instead the blacklist for the old one went out

00:15:45 ◼   ► But the upgrade to the new one did not

00:15:47 ◼   ► So if you're Jason Snell all of a sudden your Mac appears not to have an Ethernet port or however this manifested like basically

00:15:52 ◼   ► Ethernet is not going to go because the kernel extension will not be loaded and you have no replacement

00:15:57 ◼   ► Yeah, and and the end they did within I don't know a few hours

00:16:02 ◼   ► Maybe like they did fairly quickly

00:16:04 ◼   ► fix that with the next version of the definitions

00:16:08 ◼   ► that it downloads, but that didn't do you any good

00:16:11 ◼   ► if you rebooted in the meantime there

00:16:14 ◼   ► and then you had no ethernet

00:16:15 ◼   ► with which to download that update.

00:16:17 ◼   ► And not to mention the fact that I think

00:16:20 ◼   ► it's not like it comes up and tells you error dialogue.

00:16:24 ◼   ► Hey, your ethernet kernel extension is no longer working

00:16:27 ◼   ► because we deemed it insecure.

00:16:28 ◼   ► They don't tell you anything.

00:16:29 ◼   ► It just fails silently.

00:16:30 ◼   ► Your ethernet just disappears if you reboot.

00:16:33 ◼   ► these software updates, they happen facelessly,

00:16:35 ◼   ► behind the scenes, you don't see them,

00:16:36 ◼   ► they don't go through, there's no spinner,

00:16:39 ◼   ► there's no dialogue, there's no thing popping up,

00:16:41 ◼   ► there's no, oh, I see the Mac App Store launching,

00:16:43 ◼   ► none of that happens, it just magically gets updated.

00:16:45 ◼   ► - Yeah, and as far as I know, you can't disable it, right?

00:16:48 ◼   ► - You probably can, you can disable anything.

00:16:49 ◼   ► - I mean, you could firewall it,

00:16:50 ◼   ► but there's no setting to not do those, right?

00:16:54 ◼   ► - Probably just rename the binary that it uses

00:16:57 ◼   ► if it doesn't use Software Update D or whatever.

00:17:00 ◼   ► There's always ways to stop this stuff,

00:17:01 ◼   ► but yeah, in general, for the regular person,

00:17:02 ◼   ► there is no way, there is no button or checkbox

00:17:04 ◼   ► or preference pane for you to not do that.

00:17:06 ◼   ► - Right, and I mean, so the good thing is,

00:17:08 ◼   ► like, at least it didn't also affect Wi-Fi,

00:17:11 ◼   ► so that probably cut down substantially

00:17:13 ◼   ► on the number of computers that were affected by this.

00:17:15 ◼   ► - 'Cause who uses E-SNN, right?

00:17:17 ◼   ► - Yeah, well, he's like us, and a lot of people,

00:17:20 ◼   ► it turns out, but I think what's most concerning

00:17:23 ◼   ► about this, like, look, no one's perfect,

00:17:26 ◼   ► but it just seems like this, to me,

00:17:29 ◼   ► feels a lot like the same kind of problem

00:17:31 ◼   ► as the whole Mac App Store certificate expiration problem

00:17:35 ◼   ► that happened twice in the last few months,

00:17:38 ◼   ► just the latter one seemed to only happen to developers,

00:17:40 ◼   ► but where it just seems like there's this really critical

00:17:45 ◼   ► function of the system that something seemingly

00:17:49 ◼   ► just rushed out there without being tested

00:17:51 ◼   ► or with some degree of carelessness.

00:17:53 ◼   ► And it doesn't bode well for the Mac

00:17:56 ◼   ► when Apple seems to not be devoting the resources

00:18:00 ◼   ► to what should be their most stable, secure platform.

00:18:04 ◼   ► The Mac should be a rock.

00:18:06 ◼   ► It should be rock stable because it is mature.

00:18:09 ◼   ► It's not changing that quickly anymore.

00:18:11 ◼   ► It's not like, it isn't like iOS

00:18:13 ◼   ► where things are moving really fast

00:18:14 ◼   ► and there's constantly new stuff.

00:18:16 ◼   ► It's the rock.

00:18:17 ◼   ► It should be stable.

00:18:19 ◼   ► And the fact that they're doing things like this

00:18:22 ◼   ► with some kind of failure in the process

00:18:25 ◼   ► where things are getting out

00:18:26 ◼   ► that break things pretty badly like this,

00:18:29 ◼   ► it really makes me concerned for the process they have in place to validate these things

00:18:35 ◼   ► and to test for these things and for the overall amount of resources that they're giving

00:18:41 ◼   ► the Mac. Because everything we keep hearing from people inside the company is that basically

00:18:45 ◼   ► whenever there's like a new hot project engineers get moved around like crazy. Like

00:18:49 ◼   ► there's constantly like engineers getting pulled off of certain projects or going to

00:18:52 ◼   ► work at a more interesting group or whatever else. It seems like there's lots of internal

00:18:56 ◼   ► moving the people around, and that often leaves things effectively staffless. And it feels

00:19:03 ◼   ► to me from the outside like most of the Mac is effectively staffless. And that's concerning

00:19:09 ◼   ► to me as, and because what happens then when things are staffless like this inside Apple,

00:19:16 ◼   ► what tends to happen is at some point, you know, a year later, somebody dictates, "Hey,

00:19:21 ◼   ► we need to have a new version of OS X with 10 new features or 100 new features or whatever,"

00:19:26 ◼   ► And then people kind of get temporarily brought in

00:19:28 ◼   ► and they do this kind of like drive-by work

00:19:31 ◼   ► and then they go back to other stuff.

00:19:32 ◼   ► And again, I don't know if this is how it works,

00:19:34 ◼   ► but this is how it feels.

00:19:35 ◼   ► And this kind of matches up

00:19:36 ◼   ► with a little bit of things we've heard.

00:19:38 ◼   ► And so it just seems like,

00:19:40 ◼   ► it seems like Apple does not dedicate resources full-time

00:19:44 ◼   ► to things that I think need full-time resources.

00:19:49 ◼   ► And that to me is very concerning.

00:19:52 ◼   ► - I don't know what to make of it.

00:19:53 ◼   ► I mean, on the one side I feel like Apple's job as a hardware and software vendor is not

00:20:00 ◼   ► to make this mistake.

00:20:01 ◼   ► But just like we were talking about with the police officers earlier, everyone's human,

00:20:05 ◼   ► everyone makes mistakes.

00:20:06 ◼   ► I don't know if it's fair for us to try to assume what happened.

00:20:13 ◼   ► I mean, I don't know if this is somebody dropped the ball, I don't know if this is somebody

00:20:17 ◼   ► hit a button a little too early accidentally.

00:20:19 ◼   ► It doesn't really matter.

00:20:21 ◼   ► But certainly a lot of what we've talked about in a couple of different subjects over the

00:20:25 ◼   ► last few episodes of the show is perception.

00:20:28 ◼   ► And when we're already of the perception that Apple doesn't have the attention to detail

00:20:33 ◼   ► that they used to, things like this don't—doesn't really help.

00:20:38 ◼   ► Similarly, you know, another similar example is Stephen Hackett noticing just the other

00:20:44 ◼   ► day—and I don't know how I never noticed this—that there's a really kind of crummy

00:20:50 ◼   ► and semi-aggregious typo in disk utility.

00:20:54 ◼   ► And he says at the bottom of this post, "While this may seem silly" — because this is just

00:20:59 ◼   ► a typo, it's not like functionally broken — "while this may seem silly, it's this attention

00:21:03 ◼   ► to detail stuff that worries me about Apple software."

00:21:07 ◼   ► And that's, I think, why we're harping on this, is because Apple — companies of this

00:21:14 ◼   ► size and companies that tout how much they pay attention to detail, they shouldn't

00:21:23 ◼   ► really make mistakes like these. And if they do, they shouldn't be often. And granted,

00:21:28 ◼   ► blacklisting an Ethernet driver is very, very different than transposing a couple of words

00:21:32 ◼   ► in Disk Utility. But…

00:21:33 ◼   ► Jared Ranerelle Well, but you know what? Like Disk Utility,

00:21:35 ◼   ► like, first of all, like, that was part of a big Disk Utility update and redesign that

00:21:40 ◼   ► probably didn't need to happen. I don't know, I'm not familiar with the logic that

00:21:43 ◼   ► the way in behind it, but it's a system utility that got basically a redesign that

00:21:48 ◼   ► removed a bunch of features and made it look nicer. Only geeks were ever using this. This

00:21:53 ◼   ► doesn't need to be made nicer in a way that negatively affected it. It's like you don't

00:21:59 ◼   ► want disk utility of all things to have a drive-by sloppily done update. A typo in disk

00:22:05 ◼   ► utility is like a typo on your break pads. You really don't want any signs of carelessness

00:22:12 ◼   ► in that.

00:22:13 ◼   ► And so it just, it worries me that it just seems like

00:22:17 ◼   ► nothing is off limits for carelessness with the Mac

00:22:21 ◼   ► and with what Apple's working on.

00:22:24 ◼   ► And again, like, so many people, us included,

00:22:28 ◼   ► depend on this platform to be stable and to be our rock

00:22:33 ◼   ► where we get our work done, it doesn't move that fast

00:22:36 ◼   ► anymore but we don't care, it's, this is the stability here

00:22:40 ◼   ► in an industry where all the mobile stuff is always up in the air and always crazy and

00:22:45 ◼   ► everything's constantly in beta, at best we get to like a point two or point three

00:22:50 ◼   ► point release on things before we get the next new version that's a total mess again.

00:22:55 ◼   ► At least the Mac should be stable. It should be the rock. It should not be getting careless

00:23:01 ◼   ► updates or careless actions and it should not be short staffed.

00:23:06 ◼   ► I don't know, I think the Ethernet driver, I don't consider that a big deal because

00:23:09 ◼   ► like think of how long this mechanism has existed and think of how many times they've

00:23:13 ◼   ► messed it up.

00:23:14 ◼   ► Like this is the only time I can think of that they've messed it up and it's existed

00:23:16 ◼   ► for a long time and it was fixed very easily and it's very simple.

00:23:19 ◼   ► So I totally give them a pass on that one.

00:23:22 ◼   ► I'm reminded of like, you guys don't remember this, Mac OS 754, or System 754, sorry, it

00:23:28 ◼   ► was not Mac OS 754, I blame the internet for that, that they had basically two versions

00:23:33 ◼   ► of like that it reached golden master back in the days when that actually meant something

00:23:37 ◼   ► because they would print floppy disks and stuff and then they had to stop and say oh

00:23:41 ◼   ► no actually we made a mistake and here's the new new version but some of the old version

00:23:46 ◼   ► got out so for a certain period of time there were multiple official binaries of system

00:23:53 ◼   ► 7.5.4 and floppy disks floating around or you couldn't be sure exactly which one you

00:23:57 ◼   ► had because they all just said 7.5.4 and they didn't have build numbers visible to users

00:24:01 ◼   ► at that time so anyway stuff like that happens.

00:24:03 ◼   ► It's not a big deal.

00:24:04 ◼   ► The Mac App Store certificate signing thing, I think that is emblematic of like, well,

00:24:09 ◼   ► this is supposed to be a major feature and you have the iOS App Store and it's the type

00:24:13 ◼   ► of thing that is really complicated and hard to get right and requires forethought and

00:24:17 ◼   ► care and like it's not so simple as like, oops, well, we'll just wait, you know, and

00:24:22 ◼   ► another silent update will fix this.

00:24:23 ◼   ► Lots of people were left in situations where their apps wouldn't launch and all that stuff.

00:24:26 ◼   ► That I think shows a lack of investment in the Mac of like not being prepared for that

00:24:32 ◼   ► that eventuality because like because if you think of something like that happen on the

00:24:34 ◼   ► iPhone and then for the same period of time the same percentage of iPhone users would

00:24:37 ◼   ► tap icons in their phones and nothing would launch that would be just a disaster of epic

00:24:41 ◼   ► proportions I mean and in some degree it's like well the iPhone sells more that's why

00:24:44 ◼   ► it gets more attention or whatever but yeah we all think there should be a little bit

00:24:48 ◼   ► more care on the Mac and the disk utility one disk utility is the least of disk systems

00:24:53 ◼   ► problems I think it did it did need a GUI refresh this GUI refresh is not a great GUI

00:24:59 ◼   ► refresh but I don't think anyone would care that much if it wasn't for the two

00:25:03 ◼   ► things that Marco mentioned. Removing features, which is like I was using that

00:25:07 ◼   ► like you know you haven't replaced it with anything there's no promise of

00:25:11 ◼   ► being replaced for anything the old thing worked why is it gone with no

00:25:16 ◼   ► explanation so removing features is bad and then having I should put a link the

00:25:20 ◼   ► show notes but someone linked to something I think was MJ sigh again

00:25:25 ◼   ► Linking to the story that Casey was just talking about, about the typo, but just saying like

00:25:30 ◼   ► SuperDuper leverages some of the same command line utilities and frameworks that are underneath

00:25:35 ◼   ► disk utility, and SuperDuper has a mode where it will clone your drive and you can tell

00:25:40 ◼   ► it erase the destination drive first and then clone onto it.

00:25:44 ◼   ► And he was getting like out of disk space warnings, and it's because the system code

00:25:49 ◼   ► that erases the volume would tell SuperDuper, "Yep, totally just erased that volume for

00:25:53 ◼   ► you.

00:25:54 ◼   ► ahead and fill it and super duper would go to try to fill it and eventually fill the

00:25:57 ◼   ► disk because the disk wasn't erased.

00:25:59 ◼   ► Like the underlying disk utility functionality of "please erase this volume for me" would

00:26:04 ◼   ► report success but have actually failed.

00:26:07 ◼   ► And that type of failure is like, forget about cosmetics.

00:26:10 ◼   ► So it's like missing features and features that work worse now.

00:26:13 ◼   ► Basic features like "please erase this volume for me."

00:26:16 ◼   ► That's kind of untenable.

00:26:17 ◼   ► So that's why I think the disk utility update is bad.

00:26:21 ◼   ► Not because the GUI is weird and they kind of, you know, the windows aren't resizable

00:26:24 ◼   ► and it's hard to see the messages or whatever,

00:26:25 ◼   ► like it did need a GUI refresh.

00:26:27 ◼   ► Feel free to do that anytime you want,

00:26:28 ◼   ► but when the underlying functionality is either removed

00:26:31 ◼   ► or doesn't work right, that's a real bummer.

00:26:33 ◼   ► - Well yeah, this was not a utility

00:26:36 ◼   ► that was very customer-facing.

00:26:38 ◼   ► Again, this was like a really technical utility

00:26:41 ◼   ► that only geeks really ever used.

00:26:44 ◼   ► If you don't have the resources,

00:26:47 ◼   ► or if you're not willing to devote the resources

00:26:50 ◼   ► to do it right, then just leave it be for another release,

00:26:53 ◼   ► because no one is pressuring you to redesign something

00:26:57 ◼   ► like that that already works.

00:27:00 ◼   ► And if the best you can do is to replace it

00:27:03 ◼   ► with a version that doesn't work as well,

00:27:05 ◼   ► then don't do that redesign.

00:27:08 ◼   ► It's like, you know, just like with DiscoveryD.

00:27:12 ◼   ► Yeah, you redesigned this whole thing,

00:27:13 ◼   ► you rewrote this whole thing,

00:27:15 ◼   ► but the new one works worse.

00:27:17 ◼   ► And eventually they came around to the right decision,

00:27:18 ◼   ► which was, okay, we'll go back to the old one.

00:27:20 ◼   ► With Disk Utility, I feel like they should do

00:27:21 ◼   ► the same thing, either fix the new one, which I think is probably a big job, and it seems

00:27:27 ◼   ► to probably not have a lot of resources devoted to it, I'm guessing that was one of those

00:27:31 ◼   ► drive-by updates, or just put the old one back because it was fine. It didn't not work,

00:27:39 ◼   ► like it was fine, it just was a little bit ugly, but who cares, it's a utility.

00:27:42 ◼   ► - You gotta think that, so there's the GUI part of it, which is not most of the application,

00:27:46 ◼   ► and then there's the underlying frameworks and command line utilities, and the fact that

00:27:50 ◼   ► that some of those either disappear or stop working, those must have changed. It's not

00:27:56 ◼   ► just that they put a bad GUI on top of it, which is fine, put back the old GUI. There

00:28:00 ◼   ► must have been underlying changes to the parts of the system that deal with disks, all those

00:28:06 ◼   ► frameworks, or the command line utilities or whatever. So it might not be just as simple

00:28:11 ◼   ► as put in the old version of the Disk Utility application. It's a—like many of the things

00:28:16 ◼   ► Apple makes—it's a series of frameworks, and there's a GUI front end, and there's

00:28:19 ◼   ► There's a command line front end and it goes all the way down through the system.

00:28:24 ◼   ► And I'm trying to think why they got rid of those features.

00:28:26 ◼   ► Maybe they're just trying to reduce the surface area of bugs.

00:28:28 ◼   ► I think they got rid of software RAID or something.

00:28:31 ◼   ► And I don't think it's a bad idea to say, "So few of our customers use this.

00:28:38 ◼   ► Supporting it is really difficult.

00:28:39 ◼   ► It should go away.

00:28:40 ◼   ► It's not going to be supported from now on."

00:28:42 ◼   ► It's disappointing to people, but you can do that in a good way.

00:28:47 ◼   ► basically I would say give everyone a warning, tell them the software rate is going away,

00:28:50 ◼   ► give them alternatives instead of just let you wake up and you're like, "Oh, new version

00:28:53 ◼   ► disk is like, wait, where does that command go?" Like it wasn't sort of communicated

00:28:57 ◼   ► out in any way or there wasn't like one year where every time you select software rate

00:29:00 ◼   ► it would tell you, "Software rate will be unsupported in the next version, you should

00:29:03 ◼   ► stop," you know what I mean? Like there's good and bad transitions. But then having

00:29:07 ◼   ► the thing that says it erases disks, fail to erase a disk but report success, that's

00:29:13 ◼   ► That's just bad, and I don't know what the fix for that is.

00:29:16 ◼   ► I like to imagine, of course, that they're redoing this because they're ripping out all

00:29:20 ◼   ► this stuff in anticipation of the new file system that's going to come in 2017.

00:29:25 ◼   ► But who knows if that's even related.

00:29:27 ◼   ► So anyway, they redid Activity Monitor a couple years ago, too.

00:29:31 ◼   ► I think all those applications that sit in the utilities folder, they should get updates

00:29:34 ◼   ► like every five years or so.

00:29:36 ◼   ► Like they should have complete GUI refreshes or whatever.

00:29:38 ◼   ► But like Marco said, there's no rush.

00:29:40 ◼   ► If you don't have time to do it this year, wait till next year.

00:29:42 ◼   ► It's not like people are like,

00:29:43 ◼   ► "Oh, I was gonna upgrade to the new OS,

00:29:44 ◼   ► "but they didn't upgrade to Activity Monitor this year."

00:29:47 ◼   ► No one cares, it's fine.

00:29:48 ◼   ► - Yeah, I would rather have just the old one

00:29:51 ◼   ► that still works than a new one that doesn't.

00:29:54 ◼   ► - Yeah, and to the credit for all the people

00:29:56 ◼   ► who do the underlying file system stuff,

00:29:57 ◼   ► like core storage and everything,

00:29:59 ◼   ► and all the stuff that that enables,

00:30:00 ◼   ► like the new version of FileVault,

00:30:01 ◼   ► I don't know how many years that was in gestation,

00:30:03 ◼   ► but when it came, it worked.

00:30:05 ◼   ► The new version of FileVault was,

00:30:08 ◼   ► the old version was terrifying,

00:30:09 ◼   ► and it's all sorts of fun, it was crazy.

00:30:11 ◼   ► And the new version sadly had the same name,

00:30:13 ◼   ► but it's like everyone who tried it,

00:30:14 ◼   ► it's like you do it and it just works, right?

00:30:17 ◼   ► And they had to do so much plumbing changes

00:30:19 ◼   ► to make that happen.

00:30:20 ◼   ► Like, you know, all of core storage and all that stuff,

00:30:22 ◼   ► like that's a significant change,

00:30:24 ◼   ► but they waited until it was basically ready.

00:30:26 ◼   ► I mean, it's not like there weren't bugs

00:30:27 ◼   ► and not like they didn't fix them and everything,

00:30:28 ◼   ► but like it was clearly like production caliber

00:30:32 ◼   ► on the when it was released, right?

00:30:34 ◼   ► And even though they improved the next year

00:30:35 ◼   ► and the next year and the next year after that,

00:30:37 ◼   ► like I think it was, everyone was shocked

00:30:38 ◼   ► by how much of a non-issue it was.

00:30:41 ◼   ► Is your disk encrypted?

00:30:41 ◼   ► Yeah, I checked the checkbox and I drew some passwords,

00:30:44 ◼   ► now my disk is encrypted, I don't even notice,

00:30:46 ◼   ► it doesn't affect my life, it's like magic.

00:30:48 ◼   ► That's the way things should be.

00:30:50 ◼   ► That's the way the new file system will be in 2017,

00:30:52 ◼   ► right guys?

00:30:53 ◼   ► - Honestly, I'm a little scared.

00:30:57 ◼   ► Because I question whether today's Apple,

00:31:01 ◼   ► with what they're showing us by their actions here,

00:31:04 ◼   ► can they deliver a really big, really important,

00:31:09 ◼   ► stable new generation of something that large.

00:31:14 ◼   ► Like, can Apple deliver a new file system

00:31:17 ◼   ► for the Mac today without massive bugs?

00:31:22 ◼   ► - Well, they've been working on it

00:31:23 ◼   ► for like 20 years now, right?

00:31:25 ◼   ► It's gotta be so good now.

00:31:27 ◼   ► - But where are those people, you know,

00:31:29 ◼   ► what are they, how, in how many directions

00:31:31 ◼   ► are those resources being pulled right now?

00:31:34 ◼   ► - We don't know if there's any resources.

00:31:35 ◼   ► We don't know if there's even a project.

00:31:36 ◼   ► We know nothing!

00:31:37 ◼   ► - That's true, but you know,

00:31:39 ◼   ► Whatever this is, if there is a new file system here,

00:31:43 ◼   ► Apple from five years ago might have been able to ship it

00:31:46 ◼   ► and it might have worked.

00:31:47 ◼   ► But I really, honestly, I'm worried about Apple today,

00:31:51 ◼   ► about whether they can do this kind of very large new project

00:31:56 ◼   ► on a platform, on the Mac, on a platform

00:31:59 ◼   ► that they don't really seem to be devoting

00:32:02 ◼   ► substantial resources to anymore.

00:32:04 ◼   ► - I think they're totally capable,

00:32:06 ◼   ► it's just a question of making the call

00:32:08 ◼   ► to pull the trigger. That's all it comes down to. Is it ready? Go the go/no to go decision.

00:32:12 ◼   ► Is it ready this year or is it not ready this year? You just make the right call on that and

00:32:16 ◼   ► it's like it's like the whole Mac is like disk utility. No one's in a big hurry. Like if it's

00:32:23 ◼   ► not ready, don't ship it. If it's ready, ship it. That's it. Because I totally believe the capabilities

00:32:28 ◼   ► are all there. Even resource starved, even with people getting pulled off to work on the mystical

00:32:32 ◼   ► car or whatever they're doing. All that doesn't push your dates back. That's all that should happen.

00:32:36 ◼   ► Well, except that what I think we see now that today's Apple would much rather hit a

00:32:41 ◼   ► ship date than ship something perfect.

00:32:44 ◼   ► I think you're taking this way too far when it comes to the file system example, because

00:32:47 ◼   ► the file system is one of the bases of the entire Mac pyramid.

00:32:53 ◼   ► I mean, if you screw that up, that's a big damn deal.

00:32:58 ◼   ► And I think that Apple is smart enough to realize that if they're really going to pull

00:33:02 ◼   ► the trigger on a new file system, if this is really gonna happen, kind of like what

00:33:07 ◼   ► John was saying a minute ago, they're gonna make sure that they are ready and they are

00:33:11 ◼   ► going to test the snot out of that. It's not the sort of thing that you can just say, "Weee,

00:33:18 ◼   ► why not?" You know, and fire from the hip, "Pew, pew, pew, let's give it a shot, let's

00:33:21 ◼   ► see what happens."

00:33:22 ◼   ► They did that with HRS+ though.

00:33:23 ◼   ► Oh, come on.

00:33:24 ◼   ► You guys don't remember that. Let me tell you a little bit about what that was like.

00:33:27 ◼   ► Oh, God.

00:33:28 ◼   ► Please do. Like, gather around the fire, kids.

00:33:29 ◼   ► Oh, here we go.

00:33:30 ◼   ► Here we go.

00:33:31 ◼   ► Let Grandpa tell you about the file system.

00:33:33 ◼   ► So there was MFS, we're not going to talk about that.

00:33:36 ◼   ► There was HFS, which was fine for a while.

00:33:37 ◼   ► And then Mac OS 8.1, I think, came out.

00:33:42 ◼   ► And that had a new file system they're calling the HFS+.

00:33:45 ◼   ► And if you were installing it onto an empty volume, you could format as HFS+ and install

00:33:51 ◼   ► your operating system, and you'd be in this brave new world.

00:33:54 ◼   ► They also had a feature-- this is my recollection.

00:33:55 ◼   ► People can correct me if I'm wrong.

00:33:57 ◼   ► I could be mixing up third-party stuff.

00:33:58 ◼   ► but I'm pretty sure first party had a feature where you could say, "I've got an HFS disk."

00:34:03 ◼   ► And in those days, like, disks were tiny and they were always full because they were tiny.

00:34:07 ◼   ► You could say, "I want to upgrade to Mac OS 8.1, and I would also like you to change

00:34:13 ◼   ► my volume from HFS to HFS Plus in place.

00:34:18 ◼   ► Change the format of the file system without deleting my data.

00:34:21 ◼   ► Leave the data there, but convert the thing from HFS to HFS Plus."

00:34:25 ◼   ► That sounds like a bad idea.

00:34:27 ◼   ► That process, as you might imagine,

00:34:29 ◼   ► because these were not days of log-structured file systems

00:34:32 ◼   ► where it's write-only file systems.

00:34:33 ◼   ► You can do this in BTRFS and lots of other things

00:34:37 ◼   ► because of the way they're laid out in a reasonably safe way.

00:34:40 ◼   ► But this was like a literal in-place,

00:34:43 ◼   ► if you unplug your computer in the middle of this

00:34:45 ◼   ► or if anything goes wrong, kiss your stuff goodbye.

00:34:49 ◼   ► And it was terrifying.

00:34:51 ◼   ► And we didn't have any place to--

00:34:52 ◼   ► we couldn't do online backups because for me anyway

00:34:54 ◼   ► and for most people there was no online, right?

00:34:56 ◼   ► And didn't have enough hard disk space

00:34:58 ◼   ► to actually make a real, like no one had backups

00:35:00 ◼   ► 'cause there was no way to back up.

00:35:01 ◼   ► Like I had one hard drive,

00:35:04 ◼   ► or I had multiple hard drives,

00:35:05 ◼   ► but they were all filled with stuff, like where, and so.

00:35:07 ◼   ► - Yeah, it spun uphill both ways.

00:35:09 ◼   ► - Right, and so what was your choice?

00:35:10 ◼   ► Like if you wanted HFS+ then, who didn't, right?

00:35:12 ◼   ► Wow, 255 character file names, I don't, you know.

00:35:15 ◼   ► Anyway, most of the good stuff in HFS+ wasn't even exposed,

00:35:18 ◼   ► but the bottom line is you could at least have a block size

00:35:20 ◼   ► that made it so, you know, a text file with one byte in it,

00:35:23 ◼   ► it didn't take up this then obscene amount of space because that was the problem with

00:35:27 ◼   ► HFS is that as the volumes got bigger, the block size had to grow proportionally.

00:35:31 ◼   ► And so no matter how small you made your file, your minimum file size kept going up and up

00:35:35 ◼   ► to a size that we wouldn't care about today.

00:35:37 ◼   ► I think it was like we were all upset because it was like 4K for a single character file

00:35:41 ◼   ► like more than 4K and that was too big.

00:35:43 ◼   ► Anyway, the benefits weren't even all that great and the risks were tremendous.

00:35:47 ◼   ► And if you wanted to upgrade, you had to either erase your disk, in which case you needed

00:35:52 ◼   ► to have a backup or do this in-place backup.

00:35:54 ◼   ► And it was not, it was touch and go there for a year or two.

00:35:59 ◼   ► And I mean, we probably didn't hear as much about it

00:36:02 ◼   ► because people weren't online as much back then

00:36:04 ◼   ► and talking to each other about all the problems

00:36:06 ◼   ► that are inherent to that, but it was really scary.

00:36:09 ◼   ► These days, though I was gonna say to Casey's thing,

00:36:11 ◼   ► I like all the fossils

00:36:12 ◼   ► and they're gonna make sure it's super safe.

00:36:13 ◼   ► Remember, HFS+ runs on the phone too.

00:36:16 ◼   ► So you're pretty much guaranteed

00:36:18 ◼   ► that if they're replacing it with anything,

00:36:20 ◼   ► it's gonna, you know, like that's,

00:36:22 ◼   ► that's bet the company kind of stuff.

00:36:24 ◼   ► There's no way in hell they would replace HFS Plus

00:36:26 ◼   ► with anything else on the phone if they weren't damn sure

00:36:31 ◼   ► that it fulfilled the requirements of it.

00:36:34 ◼   ► So I have some faith that we will not see a file system

00:36:38 ◼   ► until that happens.

00:36:39 ◼   ► Do I have faith that that means the file system

00:36:41 ◼   ► will be out in 2017?

00:36:42 ◼   ► I don't know.

00:36:43 ◼   ► But like, you know, just take your time, get it right.

00:36:47 ◼   ► You know, we waited this long, whatever.

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00:38:37 ◼   ► So Jon, since you're already a little bit fired up, tell me how it is you kind of just

00:38:43 ◼   ► have disk-free Blu-rays. How is that even possible?

00:38:46 ◼   ► Oh, we're going to do that topic next? Alright, before we jump to that, though, the chat room

00:38:50 ◼   ► wants to say this, and it's another story for the youngins, although you guys have probably

00:38:55 ◼   ► heard it and I'll do it quickly. Back to the fire!

00:38:58 ◼   ► Yeah, the other fun thing about the HVSS+ conversion—I don't know if this is still

00:39:04 ◼   ► true, probably not, but I don't remember—there were some recent articles, like it came up

00:39:06 ◼   ► again on the modern internet a couple years ago, so maybe you could find those blog posts.

00:39:11 ◼   ► But anyway, when it converted your disk, it would do this clever thing where it would

00:39:16 ◼   ► if this HFS+ disk was read by a system that predates HFS+, rather than saying this disk

00:39:22 ◼   ► is unreadable, would you like to initialize?

00:39:24 ◼   ► As in like, I have no idea what the hell this disk is.

00:39:27 ◼   ► If the disk would appear to older disks as an HFS disk, it had like this little miniature

00:39:32 ◼   ► HFS disk volume entry in it, in the place where old, in a place where a pre-HFS+ system

00:39:39 ◼   ► would look for it.

00:39:40 ◼   ► The only thing on that disk was a little tiny readme file that explained what the hell HFS+

00:39:43 ◼   ► is and where all your crap went.

00:39:45 ◼   ► And it was just the ideal cute little Mac thing where instead of just telling your thing

00:39:52 ◼   ► is initialized and telling your disk is unreadable and scaring people and tricking them into

00:39:56 ◼   ► accidentally hitting the erase button because they don't know what else to do, your disk

00:39:59 ◼   ► would mount and you'd be like, "Where the hell's all my stuff?"

00:40:02 ◼   ► And you would see this one little text file, this one little readme file sitting there.

00:40:06 ◼   ► And what else can you do there but I guess I'll read this file.

00:40:09 ◼   ► I forget what it was called, it was like,

00:40:13 ◼   ► something about like, where did my files go,

00:40:15 ◼   ► or please read me or whatever.

00:40:16 ◼   ► Like, it was trying to help you say, look here,

00:40:20 ◼   ► and we'll tell you what the heck's going on.

00:40:21 ◼   ► And it would say, oh, this is just 'cause you've been

00:40:22 ◼   ► foreign with HVSS Plus, but there's a new format,

00:40:24 ◼   ► and you're booted into an old system,

00:40:25 ◼   ► and blah, blah, blah, blah.

00:40:26 ◼   ► That was like, that's the good stuff.

00:40:30 ◼   ► That's the good Apple Mac way.

00:40:32 ◼   ► Kind of whimsical, kind of fun, technically super clever,

00:40:35 ◼   ► because they control everything from top to bottom,

00:40:37 ◼   ► can do this. They can say, "We're going to define a new volume format, but we're going

00:40:42 ◼   ► to leave a spot for this funny little wrapper." And I don't remember when the wrapper went

00:40:46 ◼   ► away or if it's still there. It's probably gone now. But I always like that, and that

00:40:51 ◼   ► is, I think, the example of Apple at its best.

00:40:54 ◼   ► So tell me, Jon, how do you handle Blu-rays these days?

00:40:57 ◼   ► Oh, this topic. This topic. I try to handle them not at all. So we've talked about Blu-rays

00:41:05 ◼   ► a little bit, as in like, you know, where did you get this movie? Did you get it on

00:41:09 ◼   ► iTunes? How do you watch movies? All our different Plex things, streaming things from Netflix,

00:41:16 ◼   ► from HBO Go, all sorts of ways that we watch television movies these days. And I would

00:41:21 ◼   ► always chime in at a certain point to say, "Oh, I buy the movies that I care about on

00:41:24 ◼   ► Blu-ray." Because despite the fact that Blu-ray is awful, everybody knows Blu-ray is awful,

00:41:30 ◼   ► for all the reasons that anyone who's ever used a Blu-ray knows it takes a million years

00:41:34 ◼   ► to load, you're waiting for the menus to load, they show you previews that sometimes you

00:41:38 ◼   ► can't skip, you just want to watch the movie, there's a spinning disk in there that probably

00:41:43 ◼   ► makes noise, or more noise than a digital file anyway, you have to get the disk out

00:41:48 ◼   ► of its case, you gotta stick it into a little thing, you know, like it's all...

00:41:51 ◼   ► Do they still run Java?

00:41:52 ◼   ► Yeah, very often, they will run Java or try to download something, or you have compatibility

00:41:57 ◼   ► problems, my favorite one is like, I have lots of fancy equipment that can in theory

00:42:00 ◼   ► play blu-rays and every once in a while one of them will be like get me on a menu screen

00:42:04 ◼   ► where it won't let me select the play button or where it will freeze on a menu screen

00:42:09 ◼   ► and it's just like and this is after you've sat through previews or tried to skip them or figure

00:42:13 ◼   ► out which button you have to hit to get past the previews can i advance track can i hit top menu

00:42:17 ◼   ► can i pop up menu you know like and you get through that and then the menu freezes and you can

00:42:21 ◼   ► hit play i love i love blu-rays like it's like you know it's like this committee looked at the dvd

00:42:26 ◼   ► format. And they were like, "You know what this needs? More prohibited user operations,

00:42:32 ◼   ► software updates, and Java."

00:42:34 ◼   ► Yeah, and software, like running software. It's, yeah. So it's an incredibly misguided

00:42:41 ◼   ► customer-hostile format, and really, you just want to watch the movie. That's all you want.

00:42:47 ◼   ► You want the movie to start playing now. So why do I keep buying Blu-rays? I keep buying

00:42:51 ◼   ► because it continues to be the highest quality version of the movie that you can get. And

00:42:58 ◼   ► not all movies I care about, I get a lot of movies, especially like kids movies on iTunes

00:43:01 ◼   ► or whatever, like, you know, they're fine. But for the movies I really care about, I

00:43:05 ◼   ► want the highest quality version that I can buy, that a regular consumer can buy. And

00:43:09 ◼   ► Blu-ray is it. Blu-ray discs are huge. You can get a Blu-ray movie that's like tens of

00:43:13 ◼   ► gigabytes. Yes, they're still compressed. It's not like it's uncompressed, but they're compressed

00:43:18 ◼   ► at a higher bit rate with better algorithms and like they are, you know, they have, some

00:43:22 ◼   ► of them have uncompressed audio on them or, you know, multiple higher resolution audio

00:43:27 ◼   ► tracks and all sorts of good things about it.

00:43:28 ◼   ► You know, it is the best copy of a movie you can get.

00:43:31 ◼   ► So all the movies I care about I get on Blu-ray.

00:43:36 ◼   ► All the movies that I really, really, you know, appreciate.

00:43:40 ◼   ► And I have a setup that can play them correctly on my fancy TV and everything's good.

00:43:43 ◼   ► Except of course I hate Blu-ray.

00:43:45 ◼   ► So what I'm always looking for, not like really actively, but just like be on the lookout

00:43:49 ◼   ► for this, is the point where I can take my Blu-rays and get the bits off of them and

00:43:57 ◼   ► put them onto a hard drive somewhere and then watch them from that hard drive.

00:44:02 ◼   ► Now all the menus are gone, like I'm just taking the movie.

00:44:04 ◼   ► All the stupid menus, all the FBI warnings, all the Java applets, all the previews, all

00:44:09 ◼   ► that is gone.

00:44:10 ◼   ► But are you confessing to a felony?

00:44:11 ◼   ► I don't know.

00:44:12 ◼   ► I just want the bits off of the disk

00:44:16 ◼   ► and then I want to be able to play those bits and

00:44:19 ◼   ► have it be exactly the same as it would be if I put the the the blu-ray into the drive except without all the bad parts and

00:44:27 ◼   ► I have all these boxes connected to my television and I've got my big Synology down there

00:44:33 ◼   ► That's got a lot of room on it

00:44:34 ◼   ► And like I said, I've not been actively seeking this out

00:44:37 ◼   ► But I figured at a certain point just from my normal churn of the various boxes that are attached to my TV

00:44:42 ◼   ► I will probably eventually get to the point where this is the thing that can happen

00:44:46 ◼   ► And I thought I might have been at that point because as we've discussed on past shows

00:44:49 ◼   ► I'm running Plex on my new Apple TV, and I finally got my Plex library kind of in order

00:44:55 ◼   ► and

00:44:58 ◼   ► Lots of things have Plex clients my TiVo has a Plex client my television can read things directly off the Synology off the server

00:45:04 ◼   ► that it runs, my Apple TV box can do it, like I have so many different choices, I can run

00:45:08 ◼   ► the server off my computer, which, by the way, I don't know if it occurs to people to

00:45:13 ◼   ► do this and maybe it's not recommended, but if you have a NAS, you can mount your NAS

00:45:17 ◼   ► on your Mac and then run Plex on your Mac with the NAS mounted where all your video

00:45:24 ◼   ► is. That's exactly what I do. Right. But you can also have, like Synology has a Plex server

00:45:30 ◼   ► on it. So I have a Plex server on my NAS and I have another Plex server on my Mac, both

00:45:36 ◼   ► of which are pointing to the exact same video files. And they more or less stay in sync

00:45:40 ◼   ► with each other. Like they don't fight each other and everything, and so why would you

00:45:43 ◼   ► do that? Why would you choose between them? Well, I don't like to have the Mac on all

00:45:46 ◼   ► the time, but if there's something that needs some kind of heavy transcoding to be able

00:45:49 ◼   ► to play at all, the Mac can handle it and the Synology might not be able to. So, and

00:45:54 ◼   ► really, just, I don't know, I'm just playing with things. But anyway, so that's the situation

00:45:58 ◼   ► them in, and I figured, I think I'm at the point where I can do this now.

00:46:01 ◼   ► So I bought myself like a $50 Blu-ray drive.

00:46:04 ◼   ► That's how cheap they are these days for your computer.

00:46:06 ◼   ► You know, just like a little thing you put in a little Blu-ray that hooks up to USB.

00:46:09 ◼   ► Yup, bag of hurt.

00:46:11 ◼   ► Yup.

00:46:12 ◼   ► And then get, you know, make MKV or some other program that you're going to ask to.

00:46:16 ◼   ► You know, people might say, "I'm going to rip my Blu-rays," but I'm not re-encoding them.

00:46:20 ◼   ► I am not running them through compression algorithms.

00:46:23 ◼   ► I just want the bits off the disk, exactly as they are, not changed in any possible way,

00:46:28 ◼   ► right?

00:46:29 ◼   ► Because isn't that exactly what MakeMKV does?

00:46:31 ◼   ► Yeah, I think people have workflows where it goes through this whole big process and

00:46:35 ◼   ► actually rewrites.

00:46:36 ◼   ► We can talk to Don Melton about what his workflow is.

00:46:41 ◼   ► He's always re-encoding all his movies, and I'm like, "So do you have the original uncompressed

00:46:45 ◼   ► thing somewhere?

00:46:46 ◼   ► That's your input?

00:46:47 ◼   ► Or do you feed disks in forever?"

00:46:48 ◼   ► I don't know what it does.

00:46:49 ◼   ► But anyway, yeah, MakeMKV will let you select which tracks you want off the thing, and it

00:46:52 ◼   ► just pull them off exactly as they are bit for bit, which is exactly what I want.

00:46:56 ◼   ► Not for all my movies.

00:46:57 ◼   ► Again, like, I have most of the things that I don't care that much about I'll buy on iTunes

00:47:00 ◼   ► or I'll watch on Netflix, I don't have to store them at all, but for the handful of

00:47:04 ◼   ► my very, very favorite movies, right?

00:47:07 ◼   ► And I did this.

00:47:08 ◼   ► Seemed to go okay.

00:47:09 ◼   ► Like, I just did it for two or three experimental movies off of Blu-ray.

00:47:13 ◼   ► And again, they're huge, like 20 or 30 gigabytes.

00:47:16 ◼   ► Like you're gonna run a disk space real fast if you take your movie library of 300 movies

00:47:20 ◼   ► and just do the math, you will see that it will take a lot of room.

00:47:23 ◼   ► But I was just doing a couple of them.

00:47:25 ◼   ► And I thought it was home free, because I'm like, great, got the bits off the disk, I've

00:47:30 ◼   ► got a million places I can put these bits that I can play them, I can put them on Plex

00:47:34 ◼   ► and have it serve for my Mac, I can put them on Plex and have them serve my Synology, I

00:47:37 ◼   ► can put them on my Synology, have it serve from DLNA server, on my television, I can

00:47:41 ◼   ► play them from PlayStation 3, I can play them from PlayStation 4, I was hooked up to my

00:47:45 ◼   ► television but it's not.

00:47:46 ◼   ► I could play them from my Apple TV.

00:47:48 ◼   ► I can play them from the television itself.

00:47:51 ◼   ► I probably can play them from the Wii U if I wanted to.

00:47:54 ◼   ► Who knows what they have out?

00:47:55 ◼   ► I have so many options.

00:47:56 ◼   ► I'm like, surely one of these will work to do what I want.

00:47:59 ◼   ► And they almost do.

00:48:01 ◼   ► They're really close.

00:48:02 ◼   ► They're really close.

00:48:03 ◼   ► But I had forgotten about two things.

00:48:06 ◼   ► One, I mean, I didn't really forget about this,

00:48:08 ◼   ► but I figured something I had would have it work.

00:48:10 ◼   ► I'd forgotten about 24 frames per second cadence.

00:48:15 ◼   ► Movies, most movies that we know of, that people like these days are shot at 20 frames

00:48:21 ◼   ► per second for a variety of historical reasons.

00:48:24 ◼   ► And most televisions, for a different variety of historical reasons, most flat screen televisions

00:48:30 ◼   ► show a new frame at some multiple that 24 does not go into evenly.

00:48:35 ◼   ► So they may be more than 60 hertz these days.

00:48:39 ◼   ► But like, well...

00:48:40 ◼   ► Aren't there 120 ones?

00:48:41 ◼   ► Yeah, yeah.

00:48:42 ◼   ► Aren't there 120 ones?

00:48:43 ◼   ► Yeah, yeah, there's 120 and 240 and stuff like that, right?

00:48:46 ◼   ► So if you have one of those televisions and you can get 24 into it evenly, you're fine.

00:48:49 ◼   ► But if you're like me and you have a plasma television that doesn't have, doesn't display

00:48:53 ◼   ► at, you know, if you have a device that doesn't output at even multiple 24, that's usually

00:48:58 ◼   ► what it is, not so much the television set.

00:49:00 ◼   ► So the best example is the Apple TV, which I believe outputs at 60 hertz, which is what

00:49:04 ◼   ► all our Macs output at, like 60 refresh of your screen each second, right?

00:49:08 ◼   ► And if you've got 24 frames of video and you're trying to put it out over a connection that's

00:49:13 ◼   ► going to show 60 frames every second, the math doesn't work out for you there.

00:49:17 ◼   ► So you have to, because you can't show, like say you have frame number one, frame number

00:49:21 ◼   ► two, frame number three.

00:49:24 ◼   ► What they end up doing is they show frame number one three times.

00:49:26 ◼   ► They show frame number two two times.

00:49:28 ◼   ► They show frame number three three times.

00:49:29 ◼   ► And it's like three, two, three, two, three, two, three, two.

00:49:33 ◼   ► And that's not what you want because you're showing the frames an uneven number of times.

00:49:37 ◼   ► It's supposed to be one frame for 1/24th of a second,

00:49:40 ◼   ► then the next frame for 1/24th of a second.

00:49:42 ◼   ► Every frame should be shown

00:49:43 ◼   ► for exactly the same amount of time.

00:49:44 ◼   ► But if you're sending 60 updates a second,

00:49:46 ◼   ► you just can't do that with 24 frames per second, right?

00:49:48 ◼   ► And it doesn't matter what your television does

00:49:50 ◼   ► if the output device is like that.

00:49:52 ◼   ► Now, very clever modern televisions have a thing

00:49:54 ◼   ► where they will do three to two cadence detection,

00:49:56 ◼   ► where they will figure out,

00:49:58 ◼   ► seems like this device is sending me like one frame

00:50:00 ◼   ► three times that never changes,

00:50:01 ◼   ► and the next frame it sends me two times,

00:50:03 ◼   ► and that one is the same for the two things,

00:50:04 ◼   ► and then it sends me the next frame three times,

00:50:06 ◼   ► the next one too. Oh, I see what's going on there. And it fixes it for you. It re-expands

00:50:11 ◼   ► the frame rate and displays them because it has a refresh rate that's a multiple of 24

00:50:15 ◼   ► and you're fine. And then when you actually look at it on the television, it shows you

00:50:18 ◼   ► each frame for exactly the same amount of time. Every frame comes on for one twenty-fourth

00:50:21 ◼   ► of a second. That's awesome. I didn't know TVs were that smart. Yeah, mine doesn't do

00:50:26 ◼   ► that because it's A, not that smart and B, like that process as you can imagine is kind

00:50:31 ◼   ► of like detecting that and handling it correctly is potentially problematic. So what you really

00:50:35 ◼   ► want is for the device that you're playing the movie on to say, "Look, I'm going to send

00:50:41 ◼   ► it at not at 2400 per second, but at 24 frames per second cadence. So I'm going to send you

00:50:45 ◼   ► some multiple of 24, right?" Whether I can't do the math in my head, but is 96 a multiple

00:50:50 ◼   ► or 120 or 240 or whatever. Yes. Anyway, "I'm going to send you some multiple of 24 and

00:50:57 ◼   ► then you, television, realize that I'm sending to you at this frame rate and display, television

00:51:02 ◼   ► decide to update exactly this thing. So if I send you 96 hertz television, please display

00:51:08 ◼   ► 96 hertz. And everyone's fine. And so like frame for number one is shown, you know, three

00:51:12 ◼   ► or four times and frame, all the frames, you know, that's when they say it's 24 frames

00:51:16 ◼   ► a second, they don't mean that your television is updating 24 times a second. That would

00:51:19 ◼   ► look terrible for most television technologies. All they mean is that the cadence is correct.

00:51:24 ◼   ► That the first frame is shown for one 24th of a second exactly. And the second frame

00:51:27 ◼   ► is shown for 1/24th of a second exactly.

00:51:31 ◼   ► That's what you want to happen.

00:51:32 ◼   ► And when I put a Blu-ray player in my PlayStation 3, it does exactly that.

00:51:36 ◼   ► It sends it out 24 frames per second cadence, my television realizes that the PlayStation

00:51:40 ◼   ► wants to talk to it that way, they negotiate over HDMI, my television changes to be at

00:51:45 ◼   ► exactly a 24 frame per second cadence.

00:51:47 ◼   ► That is the only way you see a Blu-ray the way it's supposed to look without what they

00:51:50 ◼   ► call judder.

00:51:51 ◼   ► Judder is what they call it when you see the 3-2-3-2-3-2 type thing.

00:51:55 ◼   ► especially when they have like a pan or some quick motion where it seems herky-jerky because

00:52:00 ◼   ► it is jerky because it's not smooth motion, they're not showing each frame for 1/24th

00:52:03 ◼   ► of a second.

00:52:05 ◼   ► I thought surely I have some box that can take this 24 hertz Blu-ray and show it like

00:52:09 ◼   ► that.

00:52:10 ◼   ► But it turns out for the most part I don't.

00:52:13 ◼   ► The Apple TV won't do it because the Apple TV has a fixed refresh rate and for whatever

00:52:18 ◼   ► reason my television does not detect that it's getting 3.2 and it can't reverse the

00:52:23 ◼   ► process.

00:52:24 ◼   ► I don't think there's anything I can do on my Apple TV to convince it to output at 96

00:52:28 ◼   ► or 48 or something like that.

00:52:32 ◼   ► The last forum entry I saw from some Apple person answering, they basically said, "Applications

00:52:36 ◼   ► on the Apple TV have no power to affect what's going out over the HDMI cable, like the refresh

00:52:41 ◼   ► rate.

00:52:42 ◼   ► They can't change that.

00:52:43 ◼   ► It's fixed and it's part of the OS."

00:52:45 ◼   ► It's possible a future OS update could change to either let applications control that or

00:52:50 ◼   ► or let users control it with some setting or something,

00:52:52 ◼   ► but right now it doesn't.

00:52:54 ◼   ► And how do I know that my television

00:52:57 ◼   ► isn't correctly detecting the 3.2 cadence

00:52:59 ◼   ► and fixing it for me?

00:53:01 ◼   ► You can kind of tell by looking at like scenes

00:53:03 ◼   ► and movies and pans or whatever,

00:53:04 ◼   ► but there's a much easier way to tell.

00:53:05 ◼   ► There's a lot of little test movies that you can download

00:53:08 ◼   ► that show, for example,

00:53:09 ◼   ► a white box marching across the screen.

00:53:12 ◼   ► And for the first frame, the white box is on the left.

00:53:15 ◼   ► And for the next frame, the white box is moved one unit over

00:53:17 ◼   ► and the next frame, so you see 24 boxes,

00:53:19 ◼   ► light up one after the other. Each frame one of the boxes is lit up. All you do is take

00:53:23 ◼   ► your fancy marker arm and expensive camera and figure out how to change the shutter speed

00:53:28 ◼   ► to exactly one second. You play that movie on your television, you take a picture of

00:53:32 ◼   ► your television with an exposure time of one second, then you look at the picture. If your

00:53:38 ◼   ► television is doing the right thing, you should see 24 grayish boxes that look exactly the

00:53:42 ◼   ► same brightness. Because every single one of those squares was on screen for exactly

00:53:46 ◼   ► one twenty-fourth of a second, and one twenty-fourth of a second is the same exposure on your camera

00:53:50 ◼   ► sensor. So that's what you should see. If it's doing it wrong, what you will see is

00:53:55 ◼   ► bright squared dim square, bright squared dim square, bright squared dim square. The

00:53:58 ◼   ► bright ones were the ones that were shown for three frames, and the dim ones were the

00:54:01 ◼   ► ones that were shown for two frames. So just to be double extra sure, I experimentally

00:54:04 ◼   ► determined that yes, no combination of Apple TV plus Flex will produce anything except

00:54:10 ◼   ► for the one I had had like a clock dial to, which also made the hands go around a clock

00:54:14 ◼   ► and 20, well not a clock, but like a thing in 24 increments and you would see bright

00:54:17 ◼   ► hand, dark hand, bright hand, dark hand. It was such a pain in the ass to figure out how

00:54:21 ◼   ► to get my camera to do exposure in one second because I don't know any of the terminology

00:54:25 ◼   ► in camera land. I was like, "S, shutter, shutter speed, exposure." Like, once and the correct

00:54:32 ◼   ► setting, I don't even remember what the hell it was called, but the correct setting said

00:54:35 ◼   ► 1 and then like the inch sign, like a quote, "1 inch, 2 inch." I'm like, "That's seconds?

00:54:40 ◼   ► That's not, I mean, I guess minutes is a single prime and seconds is the..."

00:54:44 ◼   ► - Because normally it's showing you a fraction of a second

00:54:47 ◼   ► in most other cases, so it will say like,

00:54:48 ◼   ► it might just say like 500,

00:54:51 ◼   ► which is one five hundredth of a second.

00:54:54 ◼   ► So they do that little quote thing,

00:54:55 ◼   ► just, yeah, I think it is like degree of minutes,

00:54:58 ◼   ► seconds kind of reference there,

00:54:59 ◼   ► but I think it's more just to be very different

00:55:03 ◼   ► from what it was showing before,

00:55:04 ◼   ► so you don't have like five

00:55:06 ◼   ► and think it's one fifth of a second.

00:55:08 ◼   ► - Yeah, very confusing people don't know photography.

00:55:10 ◼   ► But anyway, Apple TV, no go, which is a shame,

00:55:13 ◼   ► Because that's what I wanted to do.

00:55:14 ◼   ► Apple TV has no fan, it's got Plex on it, I could put my, you know, that's where I put

00:55:18 ◼   ► my blue earbuds right into Plex.

00:55:19 ◼   ► Plex will play them just fine.

00:55:20 ◼   ► I can, you know, it'll play the movie, but won't get the right cadence.

00:55:23 ◼   ► Did your family see you doing this test?

00:55:26 ◼   ► No, they weren't around at this time.

00:55:29 ◼   ► Or maybe they were asleep.

00:55:31 ◼   ► It's a silent test.

00:55:34 ◼   ► And so, I asked about it on Twitter, I got some suggestions, like, "Oh, you should try

00:55:38 ◼   ► on your TiVo."

00:55:39 ◼   ► I'd forgotten my TiVo even had a Plex client.

00:55:41 ◼   ► But guess what?

00:55:42 ◼   ► TiVo has a Plex client.

00:55:43 ◼   ► Is it HD?

00:55:44 ◼   ► Is it slow?

00:55:45 ◼   ► It's slow, but it will output 24Hz and it will negotiate with my television and convince

00:55:51 ◼   ► my television to display.

00:55:53 ◼   ► I mean it says 24Hz, but again it's not really 24.

00:55:55 ◼   ► It will app at 24 frames per second cadence, but everything else about it is awful.

00:55:59 ◼   ► I think it's only 720p, so I think it's like reconverting the video.

00:56:06 ◼   ► At the very least the menus appear to be 720p and it down mixes all the audio to some stereo.

00:56:11 ◼   ► it doesn't do multi-channel at all.

00:56:14 ◼   ► I think the closest I got was I had managed to,

00:56:18 ◼   ► I forget which one it was that did this,

00:56:20 ◼   ► I think I had managed through like the PlayStation 3,

00:56:23 ◼   ► which is my good Blu-ray player

00:56:24 ◼   ► that does the correct cadence.

00:56:25 ◼   ► I think I got everything except for,

00:56:27 ◼   ► it wouldn't do uncompressed linear PCM audio,

00:56:30 ◼   ► which the Kill Bill Blu-ray has on it.

00:56:33 ◼   ► It would only do the AC3 one.

00:56:34 ◼   ► And I wasn't entirely convinced

00:56:37 ◼   ► that it had gotten the cadence right either.

00:56:38 ◼   ► I don't remember if I redid the test on that.

00:56:40 ◼   ► but bottom line is none of the devices I had fulfilled this requirement and I don't really

00:56:44 ◼   ► blame them because this is not a mainstream use. Nobody cares about this. They just want, like,

00:56:48 ◼   ► if you just, if I just rip these movies and just play them like regular people can't tell that the

00:56:52 ◼   ► cadence is wrong, they don't care that they've been recompressed. Nobody can hear the difference

00:56:57 ◼   ► between compressed and uncompressed audio. I certainly can't on my crappy speakers, but

00:57:01 ◼   ► it's the principle of the matter as you can imagine. And I really do think that I would

00:57:05 ◼   ► notice the cadence in the same way you can notice like soap opera effect or whatever.

00:57:08 ◼   ► I really do want the frame rate to be right.

00:57:09 ◼   ► And the whole point of this experiment is, if I can't get it all the way, then I'll just

00:57:14 ◼   ► go back to watching — because I do have compressed rips of all these things, it's

00:57:16 ◼   ► not like I can't see the movie, and I can put it in the Blu-ray when I really care about

00:57:19 ◼   ► it, right?

00:57:20 ◼   ► But I'm so close.

00:57:22 ◼   ► So close.

00:57:23 ◼   ► So many devices are capable of doing everything, they just haven't gotten the last little bit,

00:57:27 ◼   ► which is, please pass through the audio in whatever format it is directly to my receiver,

00:57:33 ◼   ► which can understand all these formats and can play all of them.

00:57:36 ◼   ► Please don't try to downmix.

00:57:37 ◼   ► Please don't refuse to use linear PCM and only send AC3.

00:57:41 ◼   ► Please don't do anything like that.

00:57:42 ◼   ► Please don't change the video.

00:57:44 ◼   ► Please don't try to change the 720p.

00:57:46 ◼   ► And get the display cadence right between the television, which totally supports this

00:57:51 ◼   ► if you talk to it in a reasonable way.

00:57:54 ◼   ► Talk to the television the right way.

00:57:57 ◼   ► And I got a lot of suggestions for alternatives that will do this.

00:57:59 ◼   ► Obviously if I was to get a home theater PC I can do it.

00:58:02 ◼   ► Lots of Mac and PC solutions do this.

00:58:04 ◼   ► Obviously I'm not going to do that, even a fanless one.

00:58:07 ◼   ► I'm not going to build myself a home theater PC.

00:58:09 ◼   ► I'm not signing up for that.

00:58:10 ◼   ► You won't even build yourself a gaming PC,

00:58:11 ◼   ► even though you really probably should.

00:58:14 ◼   ► You won't even do that.

00:58:14 ◼   ► So there's no way you're building an HD PC.

00:58:16 ◼   ► Firewatch is pretty smooth on the 5K iMac,

00:58:18 ◼   ► let me tell you.

00:58:20 ◼   ► It's pretty nice.

00:58:21 ◼   ► I know that that's a very demanding game,

00:58:22 ◼   ► but yeah, I'm not signing up to that game.

00:58:24 ◼   ► I know I could do that.

00:58:25 ◼   ► I definitely could.

00:58:26 ◼   ► A lot of people suggested Raspberry Pi,

00:58:28 ◼   ► which actually I actually kind of consider

00:58:29 ◼   ► 'cause I'm like, you know what,

00:58:30 ◼   ► that seems simpler than a home theater PC.

00:58:33 ◼   ► Can they do that?

00:58:34 ◼   ► Like are they powerful enough to do that kind of role?

00:58:35 ◼   ► Yeah, people who are using it for that say it might be borderline, but I was like, "Is

00:58:40 ◼   ► there something I can buy?

00:58:41 ◼   ► Can I buy a package thing that is really a Raspberry Pi all packaged together already?

00:58:46 ◼   ► I don't want to have to do any of the crap.

00:58:47 ◼   ► Is there a Raspberry Pi guts in a box that I can buy?"

00:58:50 ◼   ► And mostly like, "No, you kind of got to do a little bit of stuff yourself."

00:58:53 ◼   ► So it's like, "Nah, not quite for me."

00:58:55 ◼   ► There's the Android Shield, the Nvidia Shield TV thing, which runs Android TV, and Fire

00:59:02 ◼   ► iTV both now I believe have options to mess with the refresh rate so you can force it

00:59:08 ◼   ► to output in the right format, but there were some questions about whether they supported

00:59:13 ◼   ► the pass-through of the audio and everything.

00:59:15 ◼   ► And the Nvidia Shield is like $200.

00:59:16 ◼   ► I mean, it's a gaming thing.

00:59:17 ◼   ► It's not just for a television box.

00:59:18 ◼   ► And it does have a fan, although people assure me that the fan basically never turns on or

00:59:22 ◼   ► is inaudible or whatever.

00:59:24 ◼   ► You would find when it turns on.

00:59:27 ◼   ► It's big.

00:59:28 ◼   ► I mean, it's practically like a little miniature game console.

00:59:30 ◼   ► So that I think, that's the closest thing I came to considering buying, but I really

00:59:34 ◼   ► I don't want to have, I think I'm almost out of inputs and I don't want to blow one more

00:59:38 ◼   ► input on something like this and have one more remote and one more controller and thing

00:59:42 ◼   ► or whatever.

00:59:43 ◼   ► So right now I'm holding pattern on this.

00:59:45 ◼   ► I haven't ripped anymore my Blu-rays because it does take a little while to do that.

00:59:49 ◼   ► I think I'm pinning my hopes basically on the Apple TV because I feel like they're really

00:59:53 ◼   ► close to getting it right and people have complained to Apple about not supporting this.

00:59:59 ◼   ► I think we even talked about it.

01:00:00 ◼   ► The reason they might not do it is, well,

01:00:03 ◼   ► if you change to a 24 frame per second cadence,

01:00:05 ◼   ► the GUI looks gross on the actual device

01:00:08 ◼   ► when you're going through the menus.

01:00:09 ◼   ► And they don't want to change it when you hit play

01:00:11 ◼   ► because it's not a good experience to have that flicker,

01:00:13 ◼   ► HDMI, refresh rate change thingy.

01:00:16 ◼   ► - I can see their solution being

01:00:18 ◼   ► that they would just offer 120.

01:00:20 ◼   ► And they would say, I'm sending you 120 for everything.

01:00:24 ◼   ► And then the whole UI would run on 120.

01:00:25 ◼   ► - Well, that's what I mean.

01:00:26 ◼   ► But 24 frames per second cadence doesn't mean 24.

01:00:28 ◼   ► It just means that you're at that cadence.

01:00:31 ◼   ► But I don't know if the portions of the GUI system,

01:00:36 ◼   ► like when you're running the Mac part of it,

01:00:38 ◼   ► I don't know if the Mac operating system

01:00:41 ◼   ► can operate at that kind of refresh rate.

01:00:44 ◼   ► I understand they could do it for video output,

01:00:45 ◼   ► like negotiating over HDMI and everything,

01:00:47 ◼   ► but for the GUI part of it,

01:00:50 ◼   ► does the Mac do anything at like 240 frames per second

01:00:53 ◼   ► or 120?

01:00:54 ◼   ► Well, ATPtipster says it can.

01:00:55 ◼   ► I guess that we've never encountered it

01:00:56 ◼   ► because obviously every LCD is 60 hertz, right?

01:00:58 ◼   ► So it doesn't come up.

01:00:59 ◼   ► It's not like the old CRT days where, you know,

01:01:01 ◼   ► fancy CRT you could refresh at 120 hertz

01:01:03 ◼   ► and everything would be so smooth and awesome

01:01:05 ◼   ► and a little bit dim because it's kind of flickery.

01:01:08 ◼   ► - Well the iPad Pro has dynamic refresh rate

01:01:10 ◼   ► and I think, and it samples like the digitizer at 60

01:01:14 ◼   ► and I mean at I think 120 and the pencil I think at 240.

01:01:19 ◼   ► So it can sample things faster.

01:01:22 ◼   ► - But it's only displaying 60, yeah.

01:01:24 ◼   ► - Yeah, I think the UI is, even on the iPad Pro,

01:01:26 ◼   ► even in those, I think the UI is still fixed to 60,

01:01:29 ◼   ► but I'm sure they could, if they wanted to,

01:01:32 ◼   ► I'm sure they could push for that

01:01:34 ◼   ► for something like the Apple TV,

01:01:36 ◼   ► where the Apple TV is kind of special

01:01:38 ◼   ► because it's the only device that runs iOS

01:01:42 ◼   ► that doesn't need to be concerned at all

01:01:44 ◼   ► about power efficiency.

01:01:45 ◼   ► So if something just needs a higher wattage GPU

01:01:50 ◼   ► or more power draw, on the Apple TV you can do that,

01:01:53 ◼   ► within obviously the thermal bounds of the enclosure,

01:01:57 ◼   ► but you have much more headroom there

01:01:59 ◼   ► than you do in something like an iPad or an iPhone

01:02:02 ◼   ► where power efficiency is more important to conserve.

01:02:06 ◼   ► - I'm a little bit afraid they might not consider an issue

01:02:08 ◼   ► because from the other people who are like me

01:02:11 ◼   ► trying to do similar things with Apple TV boxes,

01:02:13 ◼   ► a lot of them ran the experiment with the camera exposure

01:02:16 ◼   ► and they saw evenly colored boxes across their screen.

01:02:20 ◼   ► Which means they're, these are all people

01:02:22 ◼   ► with LCDs television, which means their modern LCDs are figuring out the 3.2 coming off of

01:02:27 ◼   ► the, I assume, 60 hertz coming out of the Apple TV, and they're fixing it, right?

01:02:31 ◼   ► And so if that's the case, maybe that's Apple's solution.

01:02:33 ◼   ► It's like, oh, it's just always going to be 60 hertz house, and you have to deal with

01:02:35 ◼   ► it.

01:02:36 ◼   ► But if there's any hope, it's going to be the thing connected to a TV.

01:02:39 ◼   ► Like its whole point is to show television and movies.

01:02:41 ◼   ► And movies are all 24 frames per second, except for like The Hobbit and stuff and all the

01:02:45 ◼   ► high-end frame rate stuff, right?

01:02:46 ◼   ► So…

01:02:47 ◼   ► We should have already hated it, right?

01:02:48 ◼   ► I didn't hate it.

01:02:49 ◼   ► Like, it looked a little bit weird, but I would be pretty much on board if everyone

01:02:54 ◼   ► wanted to make their movies like that.

01:02:55 ◼   ► They just got to figure out how to make movies like that in the right way.

01:03:00 ◼   ► It's like HD.

01:03:01 ◼   ► Like, all of a sudden all your sets look really crappy in HD because the sets were made for

01:03:04 ◼   ► standard def, and now you realize it's like a cardboard box and a fake television in the

01:03:07 ◼   ► background.

01:03:09 ◼   ► So I did not hate high frame rate, but I think those examples of high frame rate did not

01:03:14 ◼   ► do the format of any justice.

01:03:16 ◼   ► I feel like it could be done well.

01:03:17 ◼   ► But anyway, that's like for the you know the movies

01:03:20 ◼   ► I love and so many the movies that I have they're all 24

01:03:23 ◼   ► So I want some way to display them in that way, and so I guess like the file system

01:03:28 ◼   ► I will just be patiently waiting at certain point

01:03:30 ◼   ► I will probably just give up and buy like you know the the Nvidia shield or something some box that can do that

01:03:35 ◼   ► I don't think it'll ever do a home theater PC

01:03:37 ◼   ► Because if I want to do that I would've done that long ago like I could have done that ages ago

01:03:41 ◼   ► I just I just I was so close just so close to getting what I want

01:03:45 ◼   ► Just you just need a little bit more and the for those clients out there that are like like the the ttbone that you're down

01:03:52 ◼   ► Mixing everything to start with like why even bother like I know most people don't have surround fine

01:03:56 ◼   ► You can have that be the default like

01:03:58 ◼   ► Because it takes more work to down mix like just pass it through like have an option to say hey

01:04:02 ◼   ► If they're sending me multi-channel audio, do you want me to just pass that through because you have a receiver check this checkbox

01:04:07 ◼   ► It's easier to pass it through than it is to down mix it

01:04:10 ◼   ► So there's some silliness going on and the TV box market as always

01:04:15 ◼   ► But anyway, I was impressed. I've still remained impressed with Plex and Apple TV combination for television shows and other things that don't have this frame rate issue

01:04:23 ◼   ► But I still can't quite get rid of my blu-rays and my relatively noisy blu-ray player quite yet

01:04:30 ◼   ► You know if there's anything I've learned from listening to you talk about this John and Marco talking about headphones constantly

01:04:37 ◼   ► It's that I am so friggin glad that I don't have the crazy

01:04:44 ◼   ► Discerning eyes slash ears that you guys have because I have never noticed this this jankiness that you're discussing

01:04:52 ◼   ► I

01:04:54 ◼   ► love my

01:04:56 ◼   ► $20 crappy Bluetooth headphones that I use every day that I've talked about ad nauseum on this show

01:05:01 ◼   ► I mean not to say I don't appreciate a good set of headphones and not to say I'm sure I

01:05:05 ◼   ► that I wouldn't appreciate a

01:05:08 ◼   ► perfectly 24 frames per second movie as shown on a TV that's very very nice like yours is but

01:05:15 ◼   ► This stuff just doesn't bother me and oh man. I'm so thankful for that. Do you notice the soap opera effect?

01:05:21 ◼   ► I don't even know what that is. I've heard of it, but I don't even know what it is

01:05:23 ◼   ► Just don't even don't even learn about it. I don't know. I don't want to know

01:05:26 ◼   ► I don't want I think I think everybody can notice that once they are once they become aware because I feel like that is the

01:05:32 ◼   ► Problem it it's like it's like the FedEx arrow like everyone can see it

01:05:35 ◼   ► but before you have seen it, your mind isn't ruined.

01:05:38 ◼   ► - Exactly.

01:05:38 ◼   ► - Or you don't know what it is that you're seeing.

01:05:41 ◼   ► - Then let's not find out. - There could be something

01:05:42 ◼   ► off about it, but it looks a little bit,

01:05:44 ◼   ► I mean, even for me, the first time I saw it,

01:05:46 ◼   ► when I got my first television that supported that feature,

01:05:49 ◼   ► I immediately, I was like, "Ugh, what the hell?"

01:05:51 ◼   ► I'm like, and then I remember like half a second,

01:05:52 ◼   ► like, "Oh, it must come like that out of the box."

01:05:55 ◼   ► But if I hadn't read about it beforehand,

01:05:56 ◼   ► I would have thought, "This new TV is weird, maybe."

01:05:59 ◼   ► And people just get used to it.

01:06:01 ◼   ► Casey, I feel like making you go over

01:06:02 ◼   ► to your television right now,

01:06:03 ◼   ► and adjusting it to make sure that it is showing the full 1080 picture instead of chopping

01:06:09 ◼   ► off the sides.

01:06:10 ◼   ► Oh, it's not. Oh, it's not. And it drives me preserved because occasionally on the Apple

01:06:13 ◼   ► TV I can tell where it's getting clipped and I keep telling the TV, "No, show me everything

01:06:18 ◼   ► pixel for pixel," and then it keeps forgetting every time I turn it off that I've told it

01:06:21 ◼   ► that.

01:06:22 ◼   ► It keeps forgetting? No, Casey, this is the—you finally found a way to get Jon to drive to

01:06:26 ◼   ► your house.

01:06:27 ◼   ► That's true. Yeah. So you tell me, Jon, how to get my—I think it's a Toshiba TV—to

01:06:33 ◼   ► Remember that I want full-frame and not chop off the understand why it wouldn't well the only trick

01:06:39 ◼   ► I know that if it's not remembering can you name your input PC?

01:06:41 ◼   ► Can you rename your inputs it is yes, and it is named PC?

01:06:45 ◼   ► Maybe you have like a bum battery somewhere, and there's not keeping the

01:06:50 ◼   ► Like how does it forget like what's the point of that feature who's gonna change it every time they turn on the television?

01:06:54 ◼   ► Oh, no, so to be clear what I'm doing is I'm hitting

01:06:57 ◼   ► I think it's picked size for picture size on the remote and it will let me adjust

01:07:02 ◼   ► It will let me adjust, you know, through several different options. I don't remember what they are right now, but one of them is

01:07:08 ◼   ► like full res or dot for dot. I forget exactly what it's called, but it will let me adjust to that.

01:07:13 ◼   ► However, every time I turn the TV off and then turn the TV back on,

01:07:18 ◼   ► it goes back to whatever the default mode is.

01:07:21 ◼   ► You got a Google for like your television model, manual, PDF, or like there's always something like, you know,

01:07:26 ◼   ► service, hidden service menu where you type in some numeric code and some crazy menu comes up on the screen.

01:07:31 ◼   ► there may be a way to do it and if you can't you just get rid of the television

01:07:33 ◼   ► because honestly that's that's obscene where or or you just live with it or

01:07:39 ◼   ► just resign yourself to a missing a whole bunch of the picture and be having

01:07:44 ◼   ► the rest of the picture stretched out yep that's gross and to the soap opera

01:07:48 ◼   ► effect if you have any said I don't want to know I don't want to know I'm gonna

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01:10:44 ◼   ► Casey, on your television.

01:10:45 ◼   ► I want to know. Oh, God.

01:10:46 ◼   ► If there are any settings.

01:10:48 ◼   ► - So I love how like, so a long time ago,

01:10:51 ◼   ► and I think like 2003-ish,

01:10:54 ◼   ► I had one of the very first DVD burners,

01:10:57 ◼   ► and I stupidly picked the wrong side of a format war,

01:10:59 ◼   ► and I got DVD+R instead of DVD-R,

01:11:01 ◼   ► but before they were universal, doesn't matter.

01:11:04 ◼   ► Anyway, at the time, the DVDs only held single layer,

01:11:09 ◼   ► so they were only 4.7 gigs,

01:11:10 ◼   ► and most movie DVDs at the time were dual layer 8.5 gigs.

01:11:15 ◼   ► So I had to, at that time, in order to pirate movies,

01:11:18 ◼   ► was the only reason you would need a DVD burner in 2002 or 2003, I wanted, or excuse me, to

01:11:24 ◼   ► back up my movies, I had to transcode it and I had to basically break apart the DVD structure,

01:11:30 ◼   ► transcode the video to fit on the single layer disks from the commercial double layer disks.

01:11:37 ◼   ► And that's the time in my life when I really discovered just how incredibly messy and complicated

01:11:43 ◼   ► video is. Things like all these different frame rates, whether it was interlaced, interlacing

01:11:49 ◼   ► is the worst thing in the universe. And then you have all the, if the aspect ratio was

01:11:55 ◼   ► wrong, and then you have audio sync issues possibly, and the tools, there was no hand

01:12:00 ◼   ► break at the time. The tools were like six different tools. This one would demux the

01:12:05 ◼   ► file, this one would remux the file, this one would transcode, and you had to, it was

01:12:09 ◼   ► was a huge mess. And I remember thinking, in just a few years, video will be simple.

01:12:17 ◼   ► That was 13 years ago. And it sounds like video still isn't simple. It's just the

01:12:23 ◼   ► complications now are a little bit different. Like, you still have some of the same ones.

01:12:27 ◼   ► We solved some of the old ones. We introduced new ones as time went on. And then added Java

01:12:33 ◼   ► and software updates. I mean, just, this whole world, it just seems like it is so unnecessarily

01:12:39 ◼   ► complex but yet just never get simplified.

01:12:41 ◼   ► We're on the right track with like digital downloads and everything. It's just that

01:12:46 ◼   ► like it's like the last mile. The last mile equivalent is alright. So we all agree on

01:12:51 ◼   ► a set of formats that are reasonable. Interlacing is gone. Audio sync shouldn't be an issue

01:12:55 ◼   ► anymore because you get like the package of files. We have ways to distribute reasonably

01:12:59 ◼   ► sized digital files that look really good that have multi-channel audio. Even the pirating

01:13:04 ◼   ► formats are all pretty nice now.

01:13:06 ◼   ► Like it's, there's a lot of, there's a lot of uniformity.

01:13:09 ◼   ► I mean, you know, the magic of MKV and all that other stuff, right?

01:13:13 ◼   ► But it's the last mile.

01:13:14 ◼   ► It's like, okay, how do I take these digital bits, which are nice and uniform, and I can

01:13:17 ◼   ► play almost anywhere?

01:13:19 ◼   ► How do I show them on my television and listen to them through my television speakers or

01:13:23 ◼   ► whatever speakers I have on my television in a way that doesn't subtly change or some

01:13:29 ◼   ► would say ruin the content?

01:13:31 ◼   ► Because the video file has a certain frame rate, and if you don't show it at some multiple

01:13:35 ◼   ► of that frame rate, it's going to look weird.

01:13:38 ◼   ► And if you have multi-channel audio, and you downmix it all to stereo, it's going to be

01:13:44 ◼   ► weird.

01:13:45 ◼   ► Or if you just drop the back channels, and there's a piece of dialogue or a sound effect

01:13:48 ◼   ► that only happens in the back channels, it's going to be weird.

01:13:50 ◼   ► And that's before you even get into how many times is this compressed and how many times

01:13:54 ◼   ► is it recompressed.

01:13:55 ◼   ► Recompressing a double-sided, double-layer DVD on a single layer, that's gross.

01:13:58 ◼   ► Because MPEG-2 looked gross to begin with.

01:14:00 ◼   ► you're just making it worse so I would never have bothered with that.

01:14:03 ◼   ► It was 2003.

01:14:04 ◼   ► No, yeah, it's not good though.

01:14:07 ◼   ► You gotta play the pure MPEG-2 because that's as good as it's gonna get.

01:14:11 ◼   ► Yeah, but back then you were lucky if you had like a 10 gig hard drive.

01:14:14 ◼   ► Yeah.

01:14:15 ◼   ► Oh no, I guess by that time we had like 60, but still, that was still not a lot when you

01:14:19 ◼   ► have 8 gig DVDs and you have a 60 gig hard drive.

01:14:24 ◼   ► And the final part of the final mile was what I was just telling Casey, which is televisions

01:14:29 ◼   ► for a variety of good and bad reasons, try to do stuff with the picture to make it look

01:14:33 ◼   ► quote unquote better or more correct or whatever and a lot of the things they do to the picture

01:14:39 ◼   ► make it look crazy.

01:14:40 ◼   ► Like, for example, the high refresh rate LCDs that refresh at 240 hertz decide, you know

01:14:46 ◼   ► what?

01:14:47 ◼   ► We're refreshing at 240 hertz.

01:14:48 ◼   ► If I'm showing a 24 frames per second movie, what the hell is the point of me showing frame

01:14:52 ◼   ► number one ten times?

01:14:54 ◼   ► Can we do something clever and basically say instead of showing frame number one ten times

01:14:57 ◼   ► And then frame number two ten times.

01:14:59 ◼   ► We know what frame number one and frame number two are going to be like.

01:15:02 ◼   ► Can we show twenty pictures where frame number one slowly morphs into frame number two?

01:15:07 ◼   ► Alright, thanks for our three sponsors this week.

01:15:10 ◼   ► I'm just going to continue into the after show, so it's your choice.

01:15:16 ◼   ► Audible.com, Igloo, and Casper, and we will see you next week.

01:15:23 ◼   ► Now the show is over, they didn't even mean to begin

01:15:27 ◼   ► 'Cause it was accidental (accidental)

01:15:30 ◼   ► Oh, it was accidental (accidental)

01:15:33 ◼   ► John didn't do any research, Margo and Casey wouldn't let him

01:15:38 ◼   ► 'Cause it was accidental (accidental)

01:15:40 ◼   ► Oh, it was accidental (accidental)

01:15:43 ◼   ► And you can find the show notes at ATP.fm

01:15:49 ◼   ► If you're into Twitter, you can follow them @C-A-S-E-Y-L-I-S-S

01:15:57 ◼   ► So that's Kasey Liss, M-A-R-C-O-A-R-M

01:16:02 ◼   ► N-T-M-A-R-C-O-R-M-N S-I-R-A-C-U-S-A-C-R-A-C-U-S-A

01:16:09 ◼   ► It's accidental (it's accidental)

01:16:12 ◼   ► They didn't mean to accidental (accidental)

01:16:17 ◼   ► Tech podcast so long

01:16:21 ◼   ► So anyway, that effect, where it takes

01:16:26 ◼   ► it takes 10 of frame number one, 10 of frame number two, and tries to make 20 frames

01:16:30 ◼   ► each of which starts at one and ends at two, but each one has a little thing in between

01:16:34 ◼   ► that's like called by a million different names, by a million different manufacturers

01:16:38 ◼   ► motion smoothing, picture interpolation, magic shadow

01:16:42 ◼   ► I totally blanked. Try that one more time because I don't think I understand at all

01:16:46 ◼   ► All right, so you've got--

01:16:48 ◼   ► [BEEP]

01:16:50 ◼   ► I couldn't resist.

01:16:51 ◼   ► I'm sorry.

01:16:52 ◼   ► [LAUGHTER]

01:16:55 ◼   ► Casey just hung up the call.

01:16:57 ◼   ► Did I hang up everything?

01:16:58 ◼   ► Sorry.

01:16:59 ◼   ► Yes.

01:16:59 ◼   ► I'm sorry.

01:17:01 ◼   ► Oh, I initiated tonight, didn't I?

01:17:04 ◼   ► I couldn't tell what hung up on where, because I'm like, well,

01:17:08 ◼   ► if he had hung up, he would have gone away.

01:17:10 ◼   ► But then why has Marco gone too?

01:17:12 ◼   ► Yeah, sorry.

01:17:12 ◼   ► I forgot that I kicked off the call today.

01:17:14 ◼   ► That's even more and less comedic than I intended.

01:17:18 ◼   ► This new chick that you have of hanging up on podcasts just needs to stop.

01:17:23 ◼   ► Sit down, Casey.

01:17:24 ◼   ► We need to have a talk to you about hanging up on podcasts.

01:17:26 ◼   ► You can do it once and it might be funny, but if it becomes a thing, now we have an

01:17:30 ◼   ► issue and now we have to talk about how you're hanging up on podcasts.

01:17:33 ◼   ► Now we need an intervention.

01:17:35 ◼   ► Is affecting other people, mostly me.

01:17:39 ◼   ► Oh, goodness.

01:17:41 ◼   ► Good anyway. I hope you do understand the motion-s

01:18:09 ◼   ► to you. Even things like sports will look different and weird. If your

01:18:12 ◼   ► television has any features about like super brightness enhancer magical

01:18:17 ◼   ► sparkly make better just turn all of those off. If you don't know what they

01:18:20 ◼   ► are just turn them off off off off not low not medium like how much noise

01:18:23 ◼   ► reduction do I want off off off off off and then you turn everything off and if

01:18:28 ◼   ► you don't like how your television looks with everything off you probably have a

01:18:31 ◼   ► crappy TV maybe consider turning one or two things back on to make your your

01:18:36 ◼   ► crappy TV look better. But realistically, if you have a reasonable television, turn

01:18:40 ◼   ► all that stuff off. I will put a link in the show notes to my "Fill Your TV" article, which

01:18:45 ◼   ► was just the most basic plea to get people to show the full HD picture on their television,

01:18:49 ◼   ► which I don't think is unreasonable. Like, is that crazy that they send a 1080 picture

01:18:54 ◼   ► and you decide, "You know what? I don't need to see the inch around the whole... Stretch

01:18:58 ◼   ► it out so I don't see that part of the screen." Don't do that. That is the easiest setting

01:19:02 ◼   ► that everyone can fix on their television. Everything else is much more complicated.

01:19:05 ◼   ► You can calibrate your television, you can get these calibration apps, all blah blah

01:19:08 ◼   ► blah.

01:19:09 ◼   ► So, I would just say start by having your picture filled with your television.

01:19:13 ◼   ► I'm glad that Casey figured out how to do it on his television.

01:19:15 ◼   ► I'm sad that his television apparently is not listening to him when he does it.

01:19:18 ◼   ► Well, that may or may not be true.

01:19:20 ◼   ► It very well could be user error.

01:19:21 ◼   ► And there might be some, not even like hidden…

01:19:24 ◼   ► Go to the menus or something instead of doing it on the fly.

01:19:26 ◼   ► Sure.

01:19:27 ◼   ► And I have looked, but I've only spent a moment looking at it.

01:19:31 ◼   ► it very well could be that I'm just either not realizing what the setting is called or

01:19:36 ◼   ► not looking in the right place. Like, I feel like I'm a reasonably bright guy, but I wouldn't

01:19:41 ◼   ► completely put it past me.

01:19:42 ◼   ► You got it. It's always like one for one or dot for dot or like you said all the things

01:19:46 ◼   ► of like the various names that they call them. It's not always straightforward. I think I

01:19:49 ◼   ► mentioned this in the article about like sometimes it's called size one. On my television it's

01:19:53 ◼   ► called size one and size two, which makes no freaking sense. And I would never remember

01:19:57 ◼   ► which one is which, but I just never change it and my television remembers, so I don't

01:20:00 ◼   ► to worry about that. Although, actually, that's not true. I changed it recently because the

01:20:03 ◼   ► stupid Wii U, I've complained about this before, in Wii mode, when you play Wii games in the

01:20:08 ◼   ► Wii U, because the Wii U will play old Wii games, Wii games were standard deaf, right?

01:20:12 ◼   ► So when the Wii U plays them, it outputs into the title safe area, like it outputs the shrunken

01:20:18 ◼   ► image on your HD screen. So if you have your television calibrated correctly and you play

01:20:21 ◼   ► a Wii game, there's a black border around the entire Wii game. And the only way to fix

01:20:26 ◼   ► it because Nintendo is stupid, is to change the size of your television and say, "Alright,

01:20:30 ◼   ► while you're playing this game, go into the stupid overscan mode where you stretch everything

01:20:34 ◼   ► just so you'll get the image to fill the screen and not have weird burn-in around the edges

01:20:38 ◼   ► or whatever."

01:20:39 ◼   ► So I have changed that a couple times for my kids to play Wii games, but in general

01:20:43 ◼   ► I leave it on the correct mode, as everybody should, because why would, you know, you're

01:20:47 ◼   ► paying for the whole picture, why not see it all?

01:20:50 ◼   ► It does drive me nuts on the Apple TV.

01:20:52 ◼   ► I forget specifically what it is, but there's something, like a menu or maybe it's the music

01:20:56 ◼   ► something that that is clearly cut off on the bottom and it drives me berserk

01:21:01 ◼   ► but not enough that I've spent the time spelunking through the the owners manual

01:21:06 ◼   ► and the menu system and all that trying to find the right switch to flip. Now I'm

01:21:11 ◼   ► rooting for Declan to destroy your television accidentally. Thanks man.

01:21:15 ◼   ► Smear some peanut butter into some very important part of it. He's gonna have to

01:21:19 ◼   ► get a lot taller because it's up on the wall. Oh you would hate where my TV is come to

01:21:23 ◼   ► think of it because it's above our fireplace on the wall.

01:21:25 ◼   ► It's the wrong place for it.

01:21:26 ◼   ► Yeah, I know.

01:21:27 ◼   ► It's way higher than it should be.

01:21:31 ◼   ► But there's no other good spot for it.

01:21:32 ◼   ► I see that.

01:21:33 ◼   ► You ever see like a house magazine, like interior decorating magazine or some sort of home-proven

01:21:38 ◼   ► magazine?

01:21:39 ◼   ► Every single freaking house they show has television about the fireplace.

01:21:41 ◼   ► And I'm like, "Who are these people?"

01:21:43 ◼   ► Yeah, but the house magazine, they also have like white couches.

01:21:47 ◼   ► And like even Casey is—you don't have a white couch, do you?

01:21:51 ◼   ► No, Brown.

01:21:52 ◼   ► Yeah.

01:21:53 ◼   ► who gets white everything, like you wouldn't get a white couch.

01:21:56 ◼   ► He wouldn't have a white couch for long.

01:21:57 ◼   ► Now the Declan's on the move.

01:21:58 ◼   ► Yeah.

01:21:59 ◼   ► Well, just life exists.

01:22:00 ◼   ► Like, nobody can have a white couch for more than like 10

01:22:03 ◼   ► minutes before it's not white anymore.

01:22:05 ◼   ► But if you look at all those magazines,

01:22:07 ◼   ► all their furniture is all white,

01:22:08 ◼   ► because it doesn't need to be functional.

01:22:10 ◼   ► It just needs to look good in a picture.

01:22:12 ◼   ► New England, you see a lot of it because New England houses

01:22:14 ◼   ► were made before televisions existed.

01:22:16 ◼   ► So there's no place to put a television.

01:22:18 ◼   ► There's either windows on the wall.

01:22:20 ◼   ► Like, there's no place to put a television where

01:22:21 ◼   ► where you can have a couch on, you know, you have a television here and a couch on the

01:22:24 ◼   ► opposite side. So the only place to do it is, like, a lot of the rooms are arranged

01:22:27 ◼   ► so you can have a couch facing your fireplace, because that's what they gathered around before

01:22:31 ◼   ► they had television, right? And so the only place you have for your flat TV, like, that's

01:22:36 ◼   ► why people are excited by flat panel television. Now we can finally hold it, hang it over our

01:22:39 ◼   ► fireplace. But then, I don't know, doesn't your neck hurt from, like, looking up towards

01:22:43 ◼   ► the ceiling all the time? It's the wrong place for a TV.

01:22:45 ◼   ► Oh, it's unequivocally the wrong place for a TV. But the problem is we have, if you're

01:22:49 ◼   ► sitting on the couch, the way we have the room arranged, it's a very, very wide but

01:22:54 ◼   ► very short room, if that makes sense. And so the couch is facing the fireplace, just

01:22:57 ◼   ► like you said, and above the fireplace is the TV because it's really the only decent

01:23:02 ◼   ► place for it in the room. I mean, Marco spent a handful of times. In terms of the room,

01:23:08 ◼   ► that's the best place for the TV. And to me, the room is the priority, not the TV. And

01:23:13 ◼   ► so we've put it in what is unequivocally, inarguably, the wrong place because I'd rather

01:23:18 ◼   ► the room look good, or well, be reasonably arranged over the TV being the most perfect

01:23:24 ◼   ► viewing position.

01:23:25 ◼   ► Well, you and Tiff should get together with your little society if we don't care where

01:23:28 ◼   ► the television is or what.

01:23:30 ◼   ► Margo's television is too high and the historical society demands that he have a soundbar.

01:23:34 ◼   ► And those are two kind of things that are absolutely in opposition to my value system.

01:23:41 ◼   ► I don't care about anything in the room except the TV.

01:23:44 ◼   ► And I don't have a good place for my TV either.

01:23:48 ◼   ► Like I have the same problem.

01:23:49 ◼   ► I have a New England house that's centered around the fireplace.

01:23:52 ◼   ► I have almost no place to put my TV.

01:23:54 ◼   ► Almost.

01:23:55 ◼   ► I just found one place to wedge it and I did the best I can, but at the very least it's

01:23:58 ◼   ► at the right height.

01:23:59 ◼   ► Well, and the funny thing is my house was built in like '98 or something like that.

01:24:02 ◼   ► So I don't know why the family room was…

01:24:05 ◼   ► Tradition.

01:24:06 ◼   ► I guess, yeah.

01:24:07 ◼   ► It is a certain style of home and a certain style of home was made that way.

01:24:09 ◼   ► Now, rich people homes and modern homes always have a room, like a home theater room or like

01:24:14 ◼   ► a room for like the room is that is absolutely 100% designed to say this entire wall is for

01:24:19 ◼   ► you to put all your expensive AV equipment and directly opposite that entire wall is

01:24:23 ◼   ► seating for a bunch of people who are facing it exactly like there's a thing and you are

01:24:27 ◼   ► facing it and there's always like one perfect seat exactly in the middle of the room exactly

01:24:31 ◼   ► in the middle of the surround speakers where you're looking at the screen head on at exactly

01:24:34 ◼   ► the right height. Every rich person has that in it. But unless you're doing new construction

01:24:39 ◼   ► or buying a house from a rich person, you don't have that. You just have a house that's

01:24:42 ◼   ► made in a handful of styles, most of which—all the styles that were invented before televisions

01:24:48 ◼   ► were around flat panel or otherwise, and so they just don't have a place for a TV in

01:24:52 ◼   ► them.

01:24:53 ◼   ► I'm just impressed that at the resolve of people like Casey who wall-mount a TV—because

01:25:02 ◼   ► we've lived in this house now for about five or six years. The TV has been in the

01:25:08 ◼   ► in the same spot the entire time.

01:25:10 ◼   ► I cannot think of a different place

01:25:12 ◼   ► that we would put a TV than where the TV is.

01:25:15 ◼   ► - Yeah, you've got challenges too,

01:25:16 ◼   ► and you're, because it's a big open room.

01:25:18 ◼   ► - Right, but still, we've never placed a TV anywhere else,

01:25:21 ◼   ► we never wanted it to be anywhere else,

01:25:22 ◼   ► we put the TV there the day we moved in,

01:25:24 ◼   ► and we've never moved it because it works great.

01:25:26 ◼   ► And I still, I still wouldn't wall mount it,

01:25:29 ◼   ► because to me that feels like such a big commitment,

01:25:32 ◼   ► and it makes everything so much less flexible.

01:25:34 ◼   ► I still would not wall mount it.

01:25:36 ◼   ► - The cool wall mounts have like a swing arm

01:25:38 ◼   ► can like face it in different directions and stuff, well that's not a big deal.

01:25:42 ◼   ► Especially with modern television, you don't realize because you have an older television,

01:25:44 ◼   ► but modern televisions are so thin and light that it's basically like a big monitor on

01:25:47 ◼   ► an arm.

01:25:48 ◼   ► It's actually pretty cool.

01:25:49 ◼   ► And it's just a couple of bolts into the wall.

01:25:50 ◼   ► It's not that big of a deal.

01:25:53 ◼   ► Not that I'm saying you should do it.

01:25:54 ◼   ► I think your TV is fine where it is, but you have the same problem.

01:25:56 ◼   ► Where else could you put your television?

01:25:58 ◼   ► I can't like, unless you decide to make an artificial wall out of your television, which

01:26:01 ◼   ► I have to admit is probably something I would consider in your house.

01:26:05 ◼   ► not if Tiff had any say in it, but because that's the real dream. Here's the real dream

01:26:10 ◼   ► of people who are...

01:26:11 ◼   ► I would love to have you come over and suggest this to Tiff.

01:26:14 ◼   ► Have people who have TV obsessions, here's what you want. Obviously you want like a dedicated

01:26:18 ◼   ► room, although I'm not that big about like a dedicated home theater room like down in

01:26:21 ◼   ► the basement because I feel like you're always going to use like whatever the upstairs room

01:26:24 ◼   ► is near the kitchen, so I would make that my television room. And you know, the television

01:26:27 ◼   ► is there and it's facing me and the speakers are all arranged in the right way and all

01:26:32 ◼   ► that other stuff. But here's the important part. The whole wall that has the television

01:26:36 ◼   ► and the speakers in it or in front of it or whatever, there has to be a room behind that

01:26:41 ◼   ► wall. That can't be like the end. Because getting to the crap behind all your AV equipment

01:26:46 ◼   ► is a nightmare. So all the fancy rich people houses have essentially all your AV equipment

01:26:51 ◼   ► and then you can walk behind it either because the rest of the house continues behind it

01:26:55 ◼   ► or because it's just like a crawl space or an alcove or a cubby for both ventilation

01:26:59 ◼   ► And because it is that is the ultimate luxury being able to walk behind your AV equipment

01:27:03 ◼   ► See all the wires have them all arranged like you're in a data center

01:27:06 ◼   ► Like they're all perfectly routed like you think that cable is going from racks in and just that is just amazing for me

01:27:11 ◼   ► I can't get at my stuff without like contorting my body like a you know

01:27:15 ◼   ► a

01:27:16 ◼   ► yoga master getting behind there and bending down having a little flashlight and trying it's just impossible because who the hell has enough room to

01:27:22 ◼   ► Have a room behind their television stuff

01:27:25 ◼   ► stuff. The only purpose of which is to get at the back of all your television stuff.

01:27:29 ◼   ► Rich people, that's why. The entire rest of the country. That's who.

01:27:32 ◼   ► No. No. Everyone else except people who live on the coasts.

01:27:34 ◼   ► No, they have big giant houses in McMansions, but unless you have a dedicated home theater

01:27:38 ◼   ► room, even the people who wall mount it, it's like, "Well, you got one shot at this and

01:27:42 ◼   ► the HDMI cable's going down through the wall and it's going to poke out over here and this

01:27:45 ◼   ► is where you need to put your stuff and if you ever need to mess around behind there,

01:27:48 ◼   ► you're basically going to have to unplug it or slide your whole thing out or it has to

01:27:51 ◼   ► be on wheels, like, it's a big pain. So I've only ever seen people who have dedicated rooms

01:27:58 ◼   ► to also be able to have a room behind the room to get your AV stuff. And that is where

01:28:02 ◼   ► it's at.

01:28:04 ◼   ► Your next house, John.

01:28:05 ◼   ► Yeah, right now. My never house.

01:28:08 ◼   ► [BEEP]