ATP

00:00:00 ◼   ► John, are you broke now? Did you get a ticket?

00:00:02 ◼   ► Well, talk about it on the show. Come on. That's the show.

00:00:05 ◼   ► [

00:00:09 ◼   ► [music]

00:00:09 ◼   ► So, how's things going, John? How was your vacation in California?

00:00:12 ◼   ► It was very Californian.

00:00:15 ◼   ► So you didn't really live in reality. Everywhere you went,

00:00:20 ◼   ► you just dropped hundred dollar bills like they were singles.

00:00:23 ◼   ► Sometimes it felt like that. There were expensive things there, but overall everything worked out.

00:00:29 ◼   ► I think I took every form of transportation except for a taxi.

00:00:32 ◼   ► I don't even know if they still have those in San Francisco.

00:00:34 ◼   ► I think they've been outlawed.

00:00:35 ◼   ► Yeah.

00:00:36 ◼   ► So the vacation was good.

00:00:37 ◼   ► You seem to hang out with most of the friends of the internet that I can think of that are in that

00:00:42 ◼   ► neck of the woods.

00:00:43 ◼   ► Yeah, we did all the touristy things that you can do in San Francisco.

00:00:46 ◼   ► You know, did bus tours.

00:00:48 ◼   ► Did you like Alcatraz?

00:00:49 ◼   ► Yeah, went to Alcatraz, rode on a cable car, went to the really windy street.

00:00:54 ◼   ► You know, did all the tourist things you can do.

00:00:57 ◼   ► I love that the tourist things in San Francisco are, "Ride on a really bad road, take mass

00:01:03 ◼   ► transit and go to jail."

00:01:04 ◼   ► I went to the woods, too.

00:01:08 ◼   ► And we went to beaches up and down the coast, and the beach in Santa Cruz and some other

00:01:12 ◼   ► beach that I don't know where it is, but it's got little tidal pools at the Pacific Ocean

00:01:16 ◼   ► stuff.

00:01:17 ◼   ► We went on a hike in Marin County, you know, just lots of things.

00:01:21 ◼   ► We fit a lot in in the short number of days we were there.

00:01:24 ◼   ► So as we record, it is Friday night, the 22nd.

00:01:29 ◼   ► We should probably talk about the elephant in the room.

00:01:31 ◼   ► WWDC ticket announcements are starting to trickle out as we record this.

00:01:36 ◼   ► How'd it go for you, Jon?

00:01:38 ◼   ► In the lead-up to this, I had some issues that I had to deal with, mostly of my own

00:01:42 ◼   ► creation.

00:01:43 ◼   ► But when you sign up for the lottery, this year it had the same message that they had

00:01:47 ◼   ► — I think it was the same message that they had in previous years.

00:01:49 ◼   ► But at any rate, the same reality is in previous years, which is if you enter the lottery and

00:01:55 ◼   ► you win the lottery, they attempt to charge your credit card at the moment they have decided

00:02:00 ◼   ► you've won the lottery.

00:02:01 ◼   ► And if that charge doesn't go through for some reason, they say, "Actually, you have

00:02:06 ◼   ► not won the lottery.

00:02:07 ◼   ► We're moving on to the next person."

00:02:09 ◼   ► Which is very bad.

00:02:10 ◼   ► It happened to a lot of people in the past, and Apple's been pretty good about trying

00:02:14 ◼   ► to go back and give them tickets later, but it's a really terrible system in that if they

00:02:19 ◼   ► pick your name out of the hat and is a winner of the lottery. They should give you a day

00:02:23 ◼   ► or two to sort out the payment situation. Now why might your credit card reject it?

00:02:28 ◼   ► Because your credit card company is fraud happy and it sees this big $1600 charge randomly

00:02:33 ◼   ► on a card and I don't know how their fraud detection works but if you trip your credit

00:02:36 ◼   ► card company's fraud detection, Apple will give your ticket to somebody else. They won't

00:02:41 ◼   ► say "well, it got rejected but will give you 24 to 48 hours to sort it out with your credit

00:02:45 ◼   ► card company." No, they just move on immediately. And so this year, same message. They said

00:02:49 ◼   ► just wanted you to know that if we fail to charge your credit card, we're taking your ticket away and giving it to someone else.

00:02:53 ◼   ► Which is terrible. It's just a terrible system.

00:02:55 ◼   ► It should be, again, 24 to 48 hours. Let the people sort out whether they can get it.

00:02:59 ◼   ► So I was afraid this would happen. When I signed up, I saw that the credit card I had in there is my traditional

00:03:04 ◼   ► "This is what I use to buy my max with" credit card, which also happens to be the traditional

00:03:09 ◼   ► "Apple cannot charge my credit card because the payment company rejected because it thinks it's fraud."

00:03:13 ◼   ► I bought so many thousands of dollars for the maximum. This one credit card, same number.

00:03:17 ◼   ► It's never been stolen on the internet, it's a miracle, right?

00:03:19 ◼   ► And year after year, every time I try to buy Apple equipment with it, they market it as fraud.

00:03:24 ◼   ► One of the things I suggest is, "Hey, Apple says this in their message,

00:03:27 ◼   ► you should call your credit card company and tell them to expect a $1,600 charge sometime

00:03:33 ◼   ► in the next, you know, between the 22nd and the 25th from," and they don't even tell you the name,

00:03:38 ◼   ► I guess just from an Apple computer.

00:03:39 ◼   ► So that's what some people have done, and again, people have done it

00:03:44 ◼   ► and called their credit card company and tell them, "Please don't reject my card.

00:03:46 ◼   ► there's going to be a charge and the credit card company will say, "Yep, thumbs up.

00:03:50 ◼   ► Don't worry, it'll go through," and that gets rejected because they're credit card

00:03:53 ◼   ► companies.

00:03:54 ◼   ► Well, and I think also like the whole thing about like calling your credit card company

00:03:57 ◼   ► to like pre-approve a big transaction, I think that's kind of like the door close button

00:04:02 ◼   ► on most elevators.

00:04:05 ◼   ► Their system is all like so advanced for fraud detection these days.

00:04:08 ◼   ► Like I'm pretty sure like when you call most credit card companies and tell them like,

00:04:12 ◼   ► "Oh, hey, whitelist this thing in the future that hasn't even happened yet," I don't

00:04:16 ◼   ► they even can do anything about that,

00:04:18 ◼   ► 'cause the system is based mostly on like,

00:04:20 ◼   ► do you have a pre-approval,

00:04:21 ◼   ► or do you have an attempt for the charge?

00:04:23 ◼   ► And then do you have, do we issue a commit for the charge?

00:04:27 ◼   ► And if they don't have even the attempt for the charge,

00:04:29 ◼   ► I don't think the people on the phone

00:04:31 ◼   ► can even do anything about it.

00:04:33 ◼   ► - Yeah, it's funny you bring that up,

00:04:34 ◼   ► because last year I saw that same message,

00:04:37 ◼   ► and the fear was put in me,

00:04:39 ◼   ► and I called my credit card company,

00:04:42 ◼   ► and I got on the phone with them,

00:04:43 ◼   ► and I was like, hey, you know,

00:04:43 ◼   ► like to try to get this charge pre-approved. It's really important to me." And they basically,

00:04:49 ◼   ► in so many words, said, "Yeah, that's not a thing. We can't do that. Goodbye, clunk."

00:04:54 ◼   ► So this year, I did the same thing, and I called the credit card company, and I took

00:04:59 ◼   ► a different approach this time, and I said, "Hey, there's a really important charge that

00:05:03 ◼   ► may or may not be going through, and I'd really like to make sure that it doesn't get held

00:05:07 ◼   ► I can you like pre approve it or

00:05:10 ◼   ► Annotate my account in some way such that there's a note that this is acceptable

00:05:16 ◼   ► And so I eventually got pushed to the fraud department

00:05:19 ◼   ► Which makes sense because they're the ones who would keep track of this thing and I got on the phone with the the woman and she

00:05:25 ◼   ► Had said you know okay? Well. What are you trying to accomplish? Well? I'd like to pre approve this thing well

00:05:28 ◼   ► You have to understand like there's a lottery and if I win the lottery wait wait wait you're talking like some sort of gambling

00:05:33 ◼   ► Thing no no no no it's not gambling. It's

00:05:36 ◼   ► Alright, here's the thing. So there's this like conference. It's a nerd conference,

00:05:41 ◼   ► but it's really important to me and this and that and eventually she was like, okay. Too much information already.

00:05:45 ◼   ► Yeah, you've already lost. Yeah, so she was like, okay, whatever. So I've made a note and then I'm thinking to myself,

00:05:50 ◼   ► okay. Well, I don't know if it's relevant or not, but the charge would be from Apple.

00:05:57 ◼   ► Like she didn't even care who the charge is from. So I think you're right that she was like, yeah, okay, whatever.

00:06:00 ◼   ► That's great. Go away.

00:06:01 ◼   ► And then I by coincidence happened to see a friend of the show underscore David Smith for lunch today.

00:06:06 ◼   ► and he and I were talking about it and he immediately came to the same

00:06:10 ◼   ► conclusion that you guys did which is the one I eventually came to which was

00:06:12 ◼   ► oh yeah this is not a thing it's all automated there's nothing you can do

00:06:16 ◼   ► about it anyway good freaking luck. These charges look so suspicious also because

00:06:21 ◼   ► like it's $1,600 which is as much as a laptop costs from a company that if you

00:06:27 ◼   ► stole a credit card and you wanted to go get a quick win with something you could

00:06:30 ◼   ► quickly flip and sell you'd probably go buy a fancy technology product like a

00:06:34 ◼   ► fancy laptop from Apple. And so like I bet lots of fraudulent charges are for Apple.

00:06:40 ◼   ► It's also a card not present transaction because it's done online. So again, it's like if you

00:06:44 ◼   ► steal a credit card online, you're probably going to go try to place an order from the

00:06:48 ◼   ► Apple web store, which is exactly where these charges come from. And so it's like, and you're

00:06:54 ◼   ► calling up and saying like, this charge might happen. I can't even tell you that I'm definitely

00:06:59 ◼   ► trying it. I haven't tried it yet. This charge might happen in a few days. So you're basically

00:07:06 ◼   ► asking their fraud detection systems to completely go against all of their heuristics and instincts,

00:07:12 ◼   ► basically.

00:07:13 ◼   ► So the note the person made in your account, that's for other human beings to read. But

00:07:18 ◼   ► the thing that's going to reject your WWDC charge is not a human, and we'll never look

00:07:22 ◼   ► at that note, and therefore that note is meaningless.

00:07:24 ◼   ► I completely agree, and that's exactly what Underscored said as well. And I think you're

00:07:28 ◼   ► that it really was just so I could go to sleep at night, that if for some reason I

00:07:34 ◼   ► had a rejection, that I have done everything in my power to make sure that

00:07:39 ◼   ► this goes through. Which is to say I've wasted five minutes of my time and

00:07:42 ◼   ► several phone operators time. Yeah, so I had an alternate strategy suggested by

00:07:47 ◼   ► my wife, which was why don't you use the credit card that doesn't get rejected,

00:07:50 ◼   ► which is another one of our credit cards that historically speaking has not

00:07:54 ◼   ► gotten to me. They reject it every time we tried to buy expensive things with it.

00:07:57 ◼   ► I think we may have bought some Apple hardware with it.

00:08:00 ◼   ► In fact, I did buy some Apple hardware with it in California, which I'll talk about later.

00:08:06 ◼   ► And so I said that's a good idea.

00:08:08 ◼   ► So I went to go change the default credit card.

00:08:12 ◼   ► This is after I had entered the lottery, so already I'm nervous on my card.

00:08:14 ◼   ► I've already entered the lottery. It said that it was going to use that card.

00:08:16 ◼   ► I'm going to change a different card.

00:08:18 ◼   ► So I log in to that Apple ID and, have you seen the new site for developer.apple.com when you sign in?

00:08:25 ◼   ► this weird interface where everything is centered and it shows your certificates and your iTunes

00:08:28 ◼   ► connect account.

00:08:29 ◼   ► Anyway, there's an option to go edit your account or change your payment method and

00:08:33 ◼   ► that sends you to appleid.apple.com and it wants you to sign in there and enter my Apple

00:08:37 ◼   ► ID and try to sign in and it says, "This Apple ID is not an email address.

00:08:41 ◼   ► You cannot continue."

00:08:42 ◼   ► And I knew this day would come someday.

00:08:43 ◼   ► I have an Apple ID that is not an email address because I got it a really long time ago and

00:08:47 ◼   ► I've been using it for years and years, going to WWDC with it, doing all sorts of stuff

00:08:51 ◼   ► with it and many people I know who had non-email Apple IDs had gotten that same message many

00:08:58 ◼   ► years past and had to change it and so I'm thinking is this the right, the best time

00:09:03 ◼   ► to change my Apple ID from one that's not an email to one that's an email?

00:09:08 ◼   ► But I also want to change the payment method and this is the only, I tried many different

00:09:11 ◼   ► ways to get around this.

00:09:12 ◼   ► Can I get it my credit card information without going through this thing that demands that

00:09:16 ◼   ► I change it to an email?

00:09:18 ◼   ► Basically I gave up and said I have to change it to an email, so now my non-email Apple

00:09:21 ◼   ► ID is no more.

00:09:23 ◼   ► It has been converted to an email address, Apple ID, like the rest of the peons.

00:09:31 ◼   ► But I could get in to change my credit card, and I did, and I changed the credit card that

00:09:34 ◼   ► does not get rejected.

00:09:36 ◼   ► So that was all my prep, and I thought long and hard about should I just leave it the

00:09:40 ◼   ► way it is, or should I try to call somebody to get the credit card changed over the phone

00:09:45 ◼   ► while leaving my Apple ID?

00:09:46 ◼   ► Is it a good idea?

00:09:47 ◼   ► And that was most of the excitement and bother about it because I thought they were going

00:09:53 ◼   ► to tell us who got the ticket on the 25th, but I guess that's just the lower bound.

00:09:58 ◼   ► But I saw Marco talking in Slack about how he hadn't gotten an email about WWDC yet,

00:10:03 ◼   ► so I checked my email inbox, and lo and behold, I saw a $1,599 charge.

00:10:07 ◼   ► I do have a WWDC ticket, and then I had to scramble and buy plane tickets and do all

00:10:13 ◼   ► that other stuff.

00:10:14 ◼   ► So I'm going.

00:10:15 ◼   ► I will be there.

00:10:16 ◼   ► I will be there again. It will cost a tremendous amount of money. Still haven't decided which

00:10:20 ◼   ► hotel, which of the two hotel reservations I've made I'm going to keep and which one

00:10:24 ◼   ► I'm going to cancel. But one of them I will keep, so I will be there.

00:10:28 ◼   ► Yay! Alright!

00:10:31 ◼   ► So what else is going on these days? You guys have to answer, but your experience

00:10:37 ◼   ► has been like, "Did you win the ticket lottery?" Let's talk about anything else in the entire

00:10:41 ◼   ► world but that. Nope.

00:10:43 ◼   ► Yeah, I take it by your sadness that neither one of you got tickets in the lottery?

00:10:49 ◼   ► As we record, I have not received an email.

00:10:51 ◼   ► I have not received a "you got one" email and I have not received a "haha, tough nuggies"

00:10:54 ◼   ► email either.

00:10:55 ◼   ► Right, you've got until the 25th, technically, to see whether you get one.

00:10:58 ◼   ► Just because you don't have an email right now does not mean you're not going to get

00:11:00 ◼   ► a ticket in the lottery, because they have a three-day window there.

00:11:03 ◼   ► Yeah, it's probably not happening.

00:11:05 ◼   ► Now, I did not see any attempted charge against my card, although presumably I wouldn't even

00:11:10 ◼   ► see an attempted one unless it went through.

00:11:12 ◼   ► I did not see a charge go through.

00:11:15 ◼   ► But like I said, I haven't received the Screw You email yet.

00:11:18 ◼   ► My coworker Jamie, he did get one on the same master account.

00:11:24 ◼   ► Like we're two individuals, two members of the same group account.

00:11:28 ◼   ► He already got his, so I'm not too terribly hopeful.

00:11:32 ◼   ► But strictly speaking, I have until Monday afternoon to see.

00:11:37 ◼   ► But we'll see what happens.

00:11:39 ◼   ► I have not yet received any confirmation or denial.

00:11:41 ◼   ► Marco, I believe you're in the same boat.

00:11:43 ◼   ► - That is correct, I have seen no response

00:11:46 ◼   ► about my ticket status, and there are also,

00:11:49 ◼   ► I checked my bank and there is not a pending charge

00:11:52 ◼   ► on the credit card, so I've heard, you know,

00:11:57 ◼   ► like ATP tester in the chat is saying

00:12:01 ◼   ► that he asked around and that apparently

00:12:03 ◼   ► the charges are still being processed,

00:12:05 ◼   ► that like, it's not over yet, but I think it's probably over

00:12:10 ◼   ► And that's, you know, we talked about this

00:12:12 ◼   ► on Under the Radar this past week, or last week I guess.

00:12:15 ◼   ► I am totally fine going without a ticket.

00:12:19 ◼   ► Like, I would prefer to have a ticket,

00:12:21 ◼   ► but every year I think my need for it goes down.

00:12:26 ◼   ► And this year, if I don't get one

00:12:30 ◼   ► through the regular process like everybody else,

00:12:32 ◼   ► I think I'm just, like I'm not gonna like try

00:12:34 ◼   ► to pull strings or anything, or try to email around,

00:12:37 ◼   ► or email developer relations or whatever.

00:12:40 ◼   ► I don't think I'm gonna do any of that,

00:12:42 ◼   ► because if I can get one through the regular means,

00:12:45 ◼   ► that's great, but if I don't,

00:12:48 ◼   ► that's fine too, I'll let somebody else take it.

00:12:53 ◼   ► - So what do you think about,

00:12:54 ◼   ► we discussed this briefly in Slack,

00:12:55 ◼   ► but what do you think about the idea

00:12:57 ◼   ► that one or all of us should get tickets

00:13:00 ◼   ► because we have a podcast where we talk about Apple stuff,

00:13:02 ◼   ► in other words, us going as press

00:13:03 ◼   ► rather than as iOS developers or whatever,

00:13:06 ◼   ► because I think that is a perfectly legitimate reason

00:13:09 ◼   ► people to go to WWDC. In fact, I have in the past had press pass to WWDC for writing my

00:13:14 ◼   ► OS X reviews, which I'm no longer doing. But podcasts are a thing, and people interested

00:13:20 ◼   ► in technology listen to podcasts, and at the very least you would imagine, especially now

00:13:23 ◼   ► that they're holding the keynote in the big auditorium we'll talk about later, that there's

00:13:27 ◼   ► more room for press, you know, for the keynote at least, if not for the entire conference,

00:13:32 ◼   ► or maybe just for the first day things with the State of the Union and everything like

00:13:35 ◼   ► then why shouldn't somebody who has a reasonably popular Apple tech-related podcast be in the

00:13:42 ◼   ► running at least, be considered for press passes?

00:13:45 ◼   ► How many tech podcasts do get press passes to WWDC?

00:13:51 ◼   ► As far as I know, there aren't any, I'm not aware of any pure podcasts that get press

00:13:57 ◼   ► passes.

00:13:58 ◼   ► As in, there's not an associated website, it's not like, "Oh, I'm from the Verge cast,

00:14:02 ◼   ► but I'm part of the Verge, and the Verge gets press passes."

00:14:04 ◼   ► Like, just all you have is a podcast, kind of like we have.

00:14:06 ◼   ► There is no ATP website to speak of.

00:14:09 ◼   ► Marco's got his blog and we all have our own individual blogs and there's an ATP.fm

00:14:12 ◼   ► website for the podcast, but it's not like it's associated with a website that has

00:14:15 ◼   ► any appreciable traffic for just the show.

00:14:19 ◼   ► So why shouldn't there be a category of, you know, we're going to give press passes

00:14:25 ◼   ► to of course all the big publications and all the big websites, and also one or two

00:14:29 ◼   ► tech podcasts that we pick out of a hat or something?

00:14:32 ◼   ► I completely agree with you.

00:14:33 ◼   ► I don't think it's unreasonable, but clearly I'm extremely biased, and especially right

00:14:37 ◼   ► now because, although I'm not saying I'm going to pull a bunch of strings, because honestly

00:14:41 ◼   ► I don't think I even have strings to pull, but if strings were pulled on my behalf, people

00:14:45 ◼   ► of the internet, I wouldn't complain, because I'm still learning all this stuff, and I would

00:14:48 ◼   ► still, I would still love to get an actual ticket into the big show. I will be there

00:14:52 ◼   ► regardless, but I would love to have a ticket, especially since it is more pertinent to my

00:14:58 ◼   ► world than ever before.

00:14:59 ◼   ► No, I mean really, like, for, for, among the three of us, I think, Casey, you probably

00:15:04 ◼   ► have the biggest justification for going this year.

00:15:08 ◼   ► This year, yeah, I don't think we could say that in years past, but this year I would

00:15:11 ◼   ► agree. Although it's probably best that of any of us, Jon gets it, because all three

00:15:16 ◼   ► of us know that if Jon didn't get a ticket, there's no freaking way we would convince

00:15:20 ◼   ► him to go to San Francisco just for funsies.

00:15:22 ◼   ► Exactly. I was just there, too.

00:15:24 ◼   ► Exactly. Even more reason for you to tell us to kindly screw off.

00:15:28 ◼   ► - It is worth pointing out also that the press tickets,

00:15:31 ◼   ► like the people who cover the keynote for the press

00:15:35 ◼   ► who get press badges, first of all,

00:15:37 ◼   ► it's kind of an awesome gig 'cause you don't have to wait

00:15:38 ◼   ► in the four-hour-long line, but second of all,

00:15:42 ◼   ► those people do not get conference badges

00:15:45 ◼   ► for the rest of the conference.

00:15:46 ◼   ► It's only the keynote.

00:15:47 ◼   ► - In general, there are exceptions.

00:15:50 ◼   ► - Yeah, it's very rare to have an exception, though.

00:15:52 ◼   ► You know, it would be plausible and reasonable

00:15:55 ◼   ► for them to consider large tech podcasts

00:15:58 ◼   ► to cover their developer conference

00:16:00 ◼   ► to give them press passes,

00:16:01 ◼   ► but it wouldn't necessarily follow

00:16:02 ◼   ► that they would get conference tickets.

00:16:04 ◼   ► And the press passes tend to go out far later.

00:16:07 ◼   ► Like the press people aren't getting invited now.

00:16:10 ◼   ► They're probably gonna get invited

00:16:11 ◼   ► like two weeks before the event.

00:16:12 ◼   ► - Yeah, and in the old days,

00:16:14 ◼   ► it used to be that USA Today and the New York Times

00:16:17 ◼   ► and Time Magazine and stuff would get press passes,

00:16:20 ◼   ► but websites would not.

00:16:21 ◼   ► And then eventually, a couple of websites

00:16:23 ◼   ► became part of the blessed set that Apple PR chose to give passes to.

00:16:27 ◼   ► These days, it seems like it's mostly websites, and then of course paper publications or whatever.

00:16:32 ◼   ► So there is a progression of what are the entities that are allowed to get press passes,

00:16:40 ◼   ► what are they?

00:16:41 ◼   ► Are they newspapers, magazines, websites, podcasts?

00:16:44 ◼   ► I don't think they're in that group yet, but it's a natural progression from only inviting

00:16:48 ◼   ► paper publications to also including websites to eventually including podcasts, assuming

00:16:54 ◼   ► the audience of any podcast is big enough to warrant that.

00:16:56 ◼   ► Maybe ours isn't.

00:16:57 ◼   ► You know, I'm not saying that we, you know, that ATP needs to get some, but...

00:17:00 ◼   ► I am.

00:17:01 ◼   ► Yeah, I'll say that.

00:17:02 ◼   ► Yeah.

00:17:03 ◼   ► Come on, Jon, promote yourself.

00:17:04 ◼   ► Well, you got one.

00:17:05 ◼   ► You're fine.

00:17:06 ◼   ► Yeah, yeah, you don't care.

00:17:07 ◼   ► I mean, I got press pass with Ars Technica, but Ars Technica is a very big website, right?

00:17:10 ◼   ► And The Verge is a very big website, right?

00:17:12 ◼   ► Whereas any individual podcast can't really compare to the size of a very big website

00:17:16 ◼   ► like that.

00:17:17 ◼   ► Maybe there's some minimum number that they, you know, minimum audience size or whatever

00:17:22 ◼   ► that they want to do.

00:17:23 ◼   ► Anyway, I think if someone inside Apple's listening to this, that it would be silly

00:17:27 ◼   ► not to include podcasts in your list of entities who should get press passes for the keynote

00:17:31 ◼   ► in the first day, State of the Union stuff, because people listen to podcasts, people

00:17:35 ◼   ► like them, and they're just as legitimate form of coverage and discussion as anything

00:17:39 ◼   ► else.

00:17:40 ◼   ► I think it's also worth pointing out too that the watch event, the very first watch event

00:17:45 ◼   ► and went over this like September or November 2014, right?

00:17:49 ◼   ► - Something like that.

00:17:50 ◼   ► - And that was at the Bill Graham Auditorium also, actually.

00:17:53 ◼   ► But that very first watch event, at that event,

00:17:56 ◼   ► that was the first time where they really invited

00:17:58 ◼   ► a very broad swath of press,

00:18:00 ◼   ► and partly because they were going into a new category.

00:18:02 ◼   ► So they had like watch press, fashion press,

00:18:04 ◼   ► but that was also the first press event I know of

00:18:07 ◼   ► where they invited major YouTube tech people, like MKBHD.

00:18:11 ◼   ► It seems like they're breaking the YouTube barrier,

00:18:15 ◼   ► or the YouTube seal.

00:18:17 ◼   ► They're breaking the YouTube seal

00:18:19 ◼   ► in the last couple events recently.

00:18:21 ◼   ► At least they're really big ones.

00:18:23 ◼   ► So maybe podcasts have some hope.

00:18:25 ◼   ► I mean, unfortunately, podcasts are indeed older

00:18:28 ◼   ► than YouTube, but YouTube is way bigger than podcasts.

00:18:30 ◼   ► And MKBHD, his audience is probably 10 or 15 times

00:18:35 ◼   ► the size of ours at least.

00:18:36 ◼   ► It probably even more than that, I haven't looked recently.

00:18:38 ◼   ► - They're millions, they've got millions of viewers

00:18:40 ◼   ► on the YouTube channel, so yeah.

00:18:41 ◼   ► - Exactly, yeah, so there are lots of really popular

00:18:46 ◼   ► YouTubers who would, by raw numbers,

00:18:49 ◼   ► be ranked way above a tech podcast like ours.

00:18:53 ◼   ► But Apple PR also, it's not purely based on numbers,

00:18:56 ◼   ► it's partly based on who you know,

00:18:58 ◼   ► it's partly based on long established reputation,

00:19:03 ◼   ► and partly based on influence.

00:19:04 ◼   ► So somebody who has a relatively small readership,

00:19:07 ◼   ► but a high influence, like Jim Dalrymple is a great example.

00:19:10 ◼   ► Jim Dalrymple's site, if you look at his numbers

00:19:12 ◼   ► on his stats and sponsorship pages,

00:19:15 ◼   ► there are sites that get more than that

00:19:17 ◼   ► that don't get passes, but because he's so influential

00:19:21 ◼   ► and he's been around so long covering this stuff,

00:19:24 ◼   ► I think that helps him be included on those lists.

00:19:26 ◼   ► So it isn't all about numbers.

00:19:28 ◼   ► It is also about influence and relationships.

00:19:31 ◼   ► - Yeah, someone in the chat room was saying

00:19:33 ◼   ► that if they picked all three of us in ADP,

00:19:36 ◼   ► it would be like inside baseball, echo chamber,

00:19:39 ◼   ► favoritism or whatever like that's the job of PR the PR department

00:19:42 ◼   ► Yeah

00:19:42 ◼   ► That's job is to select which people and they that one possible PR strategies only invite people who you know

00:19:48 ◼   ► Love Apple. Is that the best PR strategy? Probably not but their whole job is to decide who to pick. Of course

00:19:54 ◼   ► It's all favoritism. It's who it's who it's who Apple PR favors and Apple PR if it's good will not only favor

00:20:00 ◼   ► You know people that love Apple they will try to have an even mix where they want a positive outcome

00:20:05 ◼   ► but they're not just gonna pick people who you know never say anything negative about Apple there

00:20:09 ◼   ► They're picking based on a complicated criteria, but is it is ultimately entirely their choice, right?

00:20:13 ◼   ► So there's no such thing as you know favoritism

00:20:16 ◼   ► It's there's it's not like there is no what is the opposite of favoritism that the government picks who gets to cover

00:20:22 ◼   ► You know, it's Apple's conference. It's Apple's conference of their PR people pick who gets press passes. That's it

00:20:28 ◼   ► There's no it's not a democracy

00:20:30 ◼   ► - Yeah, you know, so anyway.

00:20:32 ◼   ► - And I would imagine too, like the,

00:20:33 ◼   ► your ability to say negative things about Apple

00:20:37 ◼   ► and still get invited is probably correlated

00:20:40 ◼   ► to your age and size.

00:20:41 ◼   ► So like, you know, Joanna Stern can say

00:20:43 ◼   ► in the Wall Street Journal that the iPhone

00:20:45 ◼   ► doesn't have enough battery life.

00:20:47 ◼   ► But if we say that, that might hurt our chances

00:20:50 ◼   ► of getting in, you know, like, because we are not,

00:20:52 ◼   ► like, we're not the Wall Street Journal, you know?

00:20:55 ◼   ► - Yeah, thanks Marco.

00:20:56 ◼   ► - Yeah, sorry about that.

00:20:57 ◼   ► - Yeah, you ruined it for all of us.

00:20:58 ◼   ► - Well, John got in, so I'm just gonna do it for you, Casey.

00:21:00 ◼   ► - Sorry Casey.

00:21:01 ◼   ► I mean, like once you come out of the press realm

00:21:05 ◼   ► of talking about whether we should get passes

00:21:07 ◼   ► or press passes or whatever, then it just gets into,

00:21:09 ◼   ► okay, well, you're just another iOS developer

00:21:12 ◼   ► like everybody else.

00:21:12 ◼   ► And then I have no idea what algorithm

00:21:15 ◼   ► they used to randomly pick up.

00:21:16 ◼   ► I did not win the lottery last year or the year before that.

00:21:20 ◼   ► How many years has lottery been going?

00:21:22 ◼   ► - Three, I believe.

00:21:24 ◼   ► - So this is the first time I've ever actually won the lottery

00:21:26 ◼   ► all the other years I've got like,

00:21:27 ◼   ► you know, press pass and stuff.

00:21:28 ◼   ► So, you know, that's probability for you.

00:21:33 ◼   ► - Yeah, I should also note,

00:21:35 ◼   ► it is very clear on the WWDC website

00:21:39 ◼   ► where they go through the policies and whatnot,

00:21:42 ◼   ► that tickets are non-transferable.

00:21:44 ◼   ► You know, if somebody was kind enough to offer like,

00:21:48 ◼   ► "Hey, Marco or Casey, you can have my ticket

00:21:51 ◼   ► because I want you to have it even though, you know,

00:21:53 ◼   ► I want it."

00:21:55 ◼   ► It is possible to make that happen,

00:21:57 ◼   ► But basically what you have to do is ask Apple

00:22:00 ◼   ► and give them a pretty good reason.

00:22:03 ◼   ► And they have every right to say, "Ha ha, no."

00:22:06 ◼   ► So yeah, it seems like if Marco and I don't get them

00:22:11 ◼   ► sometime in the next few hours, or slash couple of days,

00:22:15 ◼   ► then we'll just be goofing off in San Francisco,

00:22:18 ◼   ► riding the cable cars, eating Rice-A-Roni.

00:22:20 ◼   ► - We will be sleeping in on Monday.

00:22:21 ◼   ► That's what we're gonna be doing.

00:22:23 ◼   ► - That is true, actually. - We're gonna be not waiting

00:22:24 ◼   ► on the freezing cold line at five a.m.

00:22:26 ◼   ► - Yeah, that is absolutely true.

00:22:28 ◼   ► And we'll be eating a lot of Rice-A-Roni

00:22:30 ◼   ► 'cause it's a San Francisco treat, ding ding.

00:22:32 ◼   ► - Oh my God.

00:22:33 ◼   ► We couldn't even make that joke

00:22:36 ◼   ► 'cause my kids have never seen that commercial.

00:22:38 ◼   ► (laughing)

00:22:39 ◼   ► - Oh goodness.

00:22:40 ◼   ► - That's right, your job as a parent is to make jokes

00:22:44 ◼   ► that are barely funny to begin with

00:22:45 ◼   ► that your kids won't even get.

00:22:47 ◼   ► - All right, well have fun, Jon.

00:22:48 ◼   ► It's cool, I'm actually gonna have a good time.

00:22:52 ◼   ► - You can come anyway, go to the Layers Conference

00:22:54 ◼   ► or something.

00:22:54 ◼   ► - That's probably what I'm gonna do.

00:22:55 ◼   ► - Actually, I don't think it's even been announced

00:22:58 ◼   ► officially yet, but--

00:23:00 ◼   ► - No, they've announced the dates.

00:23:01 ◼   ► There's no tickets yet, but the dates have been announced.

00:23:03 ◼   ► - Yeah, there's no tickets, yes, you can't buy tickets yet,

00:23:04 ◼   ► but I will be go, I think, I mean, if I don't get

00:23:08 ◼   ► a WBC ticket, I'll definitely be going to Layers,

00:23:10 ◼   ► and I think I'd even be going anyway.

00:23:11 ◼   ► Last year, I actually got both,

00:23:13 ◼   ► and I didn't regret that at all,

00:23:16 ◼   ► so I am looking forward to Layers this year.

00:23:19 ◼   ► So yeah, so I'll be there for that, at least,

00:23:20 ◼   ► and I already put the plane ticket,

00:23:21 ◼   ► I'm gonna be there the whole week,

00:23:23 ◼   ► So I'll see you there regardless of what happens.

00:23:27 ◼   ► Yeah, we're all going to be there.

00:23:28 ◼   ► Oh, and by the way, everyone's talking about this, but WWDC has been getting more and more

00:23:33 ◼   ► expensive.

00:23:34 ◼   ► There's a couple blog posts about how much more expensive it is in the past.

00:23:36 ◼   ► I think this is close to my limit of next year, if current trends continue, I may not

00:23:42 ◼   ► even enter the lottery because it is such a tremendous amount of money.

00:23:44 ◼   ► And I'm not writing an OS X review.

00:23:47 ◼   ► So I'm basically going for the purposes of this show and my own edification combination,

00:23:54 ◼   ► but boy it is a lot of money.

00:23:55 ◼   ► I look at how much money it's costing.

00:23:56 ◼   ► I roll in and I just think about what else I could do with that money.

00:24:00 ◼   ► As my wife reminds me, it will be tax deductible because this is a work thing, but boy it's

00:24:06 ◼   ► very difficult to justify as the price keeps going up.

00:24:10 ◼   ► Yeah, I mean especially like the hotel prices are probably the biggest chunk of it for most

00:24:14 ◼   ► people now unless you're flying from somewhere very far away but otherwise you're paying

00:24:19 ◼   ► almost $2,000 for the hotel in most cases.

00:24:21 ◼   ► Or more.

00:24:22 ◼   ► Or yeah, actually you could--

00:24:23 ◼   ► Depending on how far you're willing to walk and many other things.

00:24:26 ◼   ► Whether you require a bathroom and other such things that seem like they should be included.

00:24:31 ◼   ► Yeah, that's why I made multiple reservations so that I can just decide how much I want

00:24:37 ◼   ► to spend based on how far I want to walk and all sorts of other issues. And by the way,

00:24:41 ◼   ► Per people who don't know, I'm sure Marco covered this in the developing perspective

00:24:45 ◼   ► that I have not listened to.

00:24:46 ◼   ► Under the radar.

00:24:47 ◼   ► Developing perspective.

00:24:48 ◼   ► It's an understandable mistake.

00:24:49 ◼   ► One of those underscore shows about prep for WWDC and the thing that everybody in our circle

00:24:57 ◼   ► tends to do these days is try to figure out when WWDC is going to be based on reading

00:25:01 ◼   ► tea leaves and stuff and then just make hotel reservations many, many months in advance.

00:25:06 ◼   ► So I think I made my hotel reservations in January or February or something.

00:25:10 ◼   ► Yeah, I made mine in February.

00:25:12 ◼   ► Yeah, you can cancel hotel reservations without any cost in most hotels.

00:25:16 ◼   ► So you just guess and make a whole bunch of reservations for a whole bunch of weeks, and

00:25:19 ◼   ► when Apple announces it, you cancel all the other ones.

00:25:21 ◼   ► Yep, that's exactly what I did.

00:25:22 ◼   ► I booked in early February, ended up guessing correctly, which was excellent, and the bill

00:25:29 ◼   ► in early February for the hotel where we all tend to stay was $2,500, roughly.

00:25:35 ◼   ► And I actually went through and dug up what the bills were at this same hotel over the

00:25:39 ◼   ► last few years and wrote a blog post about this. And in 2013 it was $1,123.46, and as

00:25:46 ◼   ► I just said, in 2016 it's going to be thereabouts of $2,500. So if I were to get a ticket, which

00:25:53 ◼   ► I'm hoping but not expecting, then it's roughly $4,000 to go to—or excuse me, not even to

00:26:00 ◼   ► go there—to be in San Francisco, teleported by magic, to sleep there and then go to WWDC.

00:26:08 ◼   ► Now I have not eaten any dinners. I haven't actually made it to San Francisco yet. All I'm doing is sleeping and

00:26:16 ◼   ► going to the conference.

00:26:17 ◼   ► And I've looked at plane tickets.

00:26:19 ◼   ► I booked my outbound ticket because I knew I was going to be there for at least a couple days even without a

00:26:23 ◼   ► WWDC ticket. I have yet to book my return flight, but it should be about $500 old told.

00:26:29 ◼   ► So in case you were wondering, it costs about the same amount of money to be transported in a tube through space.

00:26:34 ◼   ► 3,000 miles, whatever it is across the country.

00:26:38 ◼   ► as it does to sleep one night in San Francisco.

00:26:42 ◼   ► Actually, across the country and back, I should say,

00:26:44 ◼   ► is approximately the same as one night in San Francisco.

00:26:47 ◼   ► - Yeah, the joke we made last year is every night

00:26:49 ◼   ► you're there for WWDC, that's one Apple Watch.

00:26:51 ◼   ► Go to sleep, that's another Apple Watch.

00:26:52 ◼   ► Go to sleep, that's another Apple Watch.

00:26:53 ◼   ► Now it's gonna be, it's a little bit nicer

00:26:55 ◼   ► Apple Watch every night.

00:26:56 ◼   ► Soon we're gonna graduate to the stainless steel model

00:26:59 ◼   ► every night.

00:27:00 ◼   ► (laughing)

00:27:01 ◼   ► All right, now that I've gotten a ticket,

00:27:03 ◼   ► you can thank me for ensuring that there will be

00:27:06 ◼   ► no new file system this year.

00:27:07 ◼   ► And so if I didn't show up, they would definitely announce a new file system.

00:27:10 ◼   ► But because I'm going to be there, there will be no new file system this year.

00:27:13 ◼   ► 2017, like I said, 2017, I won't get a ticket, and they'll release a new file system.

00:27:18 ◼   ► Maybe we'll get the Tester USB hub before then.

00:27:23 ◼   ► It's funny because I had said to a few people leading up to the WWDC tickets being announced,

00:27:29 ◼   ► you know, here it was, I've been 2011 through '15 inclusive, and every one of those years,

00:27:36 ◼   ► you would think, "Well, I kinda didn't have a lot of business being there."

00:27:39 ◼   ► Like I sorta did once ATP came, but in terms of my day-to-day job, I had no business being

00:27:44 ◼   ► there.

00:27:45 ◼   ► I was just very lucky.

00:27:46 ◼   ► And here it is.

00:27:47 ◼   ► I am now an honest-to-goodness iOS developer, and sitting here now, I do not have a WWDC

00:27:51 ◼   ► ticket.

00:27:52 ◼   ► The one time when it makes sense for me to have one.

00:27:53 ◼   ► I don't.

00:27:54 ◼   ► It's okay, though.

00:27:55 ◼   ► I'll be okay.

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00:28:01 ◼   ► Fracture is a company that prints photos directly on glass in vivid colors.

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00:28:14 ◼   ► and hang it up.

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00:28:16 ◼   ► It's really affordable too,

00:28:17 ◼   ► but the price is starting at just $15

00:28:19 ◼   ► for a small square fracture print.

00:28:21 ◼   ► And of course they have rectangles too

00:28:22 ◼   ► if you're not part of the Instagram generation.

00:28:24 ◼   ► And they have all sorts of sizes up from there.

00:28:27 ◼   ► And the prices here are very reasonable.

00:28:29 ◼   ► I have these all over my office.

00:28:30 ◼   ► We get compliments on our fracture prints all the time

00:28:33 ◼   ► because they look great.

00:28:34 ◼   ► and they are so modern looking.

00:28:37 ◼   ► It's just a piece of glass

00:28:39 ◼   ► with the photo printed edge to edge.

00:28:41 ◼   ► And that's it, there's no frame around it,

00:28:43 ◼   ► there's no border around it.

00:28:45 ◼   ► And there doesn't need to be,

00:28:46 ◼   ► I think it would look weird if it had one.

00:28:47 ◼   ► These things just look like pure photos

00:28:50 ◼   ► in a nice modern print.

00:28:52 ◼   ► You don't have to worry about framing.

00:28:53 ◼   ► They're lightweight, you don't have to worry about

00:28:55 ◼   ► like trying to hang like a really heavy duty hook

00:28:57 ◼   ► in the wall to hold this thing up.

00:28:59 ◼   ► They're just great, I love these Fracture prints.

00:29:02 ◼   ► So check it out, they make great gifts also.

00:29:04 ◼   ► I've sent them to a number of people, relatives, friends,

00:29:07 ◼   ► things like a picture of your kid,

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00:29:13 ◼   ► Even the gag gifts send it to your friends.

00:29:16 ◼   ► If you go on a trip with your friends,

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00:29:36 ◼   ► So thanks a lot to Fracture for sponsoring our show.

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00:29:44 ◼   ► Thank you very much.

00:29:45 ◼   ► (chime)

00:29:46 ◼   ► - We should probably do what is indisputedly follow up,

00:29:49 ◼   ► and we should talk about what a friend of the show,

00:29:51 ◼   ► Matt and Reese, has written in regarding.

00:29:53 ◼   ► - This was about the charging stations again,

00:29:56 ◼   ► Tesla versus other.

00:29:57 ◼   ► He was pointing out the standard charging connector

00:29:58 ◼   ► that we talked about last show.

00:30:00 ◼   ► and he says where he is in Austin, Texas.

00:30:02 ◼   ► There are hundreds of what he calls level two

00:30:04 ◼   ► charging stations in Austin alone.

00:30:06 ◼   ► Chargepoint.com lists 27,000 total

00:30:08 ◼   ► vastly outnumbering superchargers.

00:30:10 ◼   ► So these are not the super fast, supercharged things

00:30:13 ◼   ► for Tesla or otherwise, they're just kind of like

00:30:16 ◼   ► plug your car in while you're shopping

00:30:18 ◼   ► or while you're at work or whatever.

00:30:19 ◼   ► So they charge more slowly,

00:30:20 ◼   ► but there are many, many more of them.

00:30:21 ◼   ► Some of them are free,

00:30:22 ◼   ► some of them charge an hourly rate or whatever.

00:30:24 ◼   ► He says, I have a lot of respect for Tesla

00:30:25 ◼   ► trying to solve the road trip problem.

00:30:27 ◼   ► It's ambitious and the kind of thing

00:30:28 ◼   ► that no car company would do.

00:30:29 ◼   ► no other car company would do.

00:30:31 ◼   ► But they're also doing a good job

00:30:32 ◼   ► of having destination charges at hotels.

00:30:34 ◼   ► And I'm seeing great progress on the infrastructure

00:30:36 ◼   ► you actually need day to day within cities

00:30:38 ◼   ► and those aren't from Tesla.

00:30:39 ◼   ► So we talked so much about Tesla and their superchargers,

00:30:42 ◼   ► but it's important to acknowledge,

00:30:43 ◼   ► and I see this too at the mall and stuff,

00:30:44 ◼   ► that there are tons of electric car park here,

00:30:47 ◼   ► parking spots, and I guess those all have

00:30:48 ◼   ► the standard SAE connector in them.

00:30:50 ◼   ► And no, they don't charge as fast as the superchargers do.

00:30:52 ◼   ► That's why the superchargers are super,

00:30:54 ◼   ► but there's way, way more of them.

00:30:56 ◼   ► - Excellent.

00:30:57 ◼   ► should also talk about and we made reference to him earlier MKBHD. Yeah now that we're all jealous

00:31:03 ◼   ► of the press pass that he's getting and we're not we should take this time to dance on his

00:31:07 ◼   ► self-inflicted grave is that no mixing metaphor sorry. Wait what happened I missed this. Oh quote

00:31:12 ◼   ► me? Yeah he did to his credit he tweeted this himself this is a tweet from him he says me in

00:31:17 ◼   ► 2015 I guarantee the next-gen macbook will have at least two USB-C ports and then he put me right

00:31:22 ◼   ► now because of course the new macbook was updated talk about that a little later it does not have

00:31:27 ◼   ► have two USB-C ports. Last year, whenever he made that video, he was very adamant that

00:31:33 ◼   ► it will have more than one "quote me," he said, and I believe we had to chuckle about

00:31:38 ◼   ► it on the show because it's totally an Apple thing to do to not add one more port. Despite

00:31:43 ◼   ► the fact that we had like 17 episodes of ATP talking about this one port, we were not convinced,

00:31:49 ◼   ► I don't think, if my recollection serves.

00:31:50 ◼   ► And now it's going to be 18.

00:31:52 ◼   ► that Apple was going to change their mind.

00:31:55 ◼   ► Just because we want more than one port

00:31:57 ◼   ► doesn't mean Apple does.

00:31:58 ◼   ► And lo and behold, there's a new MacBook out.

00:32:00 ◼   ► It does not have more than one port.

00:32:02 ◼   ► MKBHD called himself on it.

00:32:04 ◼   ► To his credit, we will put the links in the show notes.

00:32:07 ◼   ► So, and also I think he ran out of room in the tweet

00:32:10 ◼   ► because in the tweet he said,

00:32:11 ◼   ► "I guarantee the next-gen MacBook."

00:32:13 ◼   ► In the actual quote he said,

00:32:14 ◼   ► "I pretty much guarantee the second generation of this

00:32:17 ◼   ► than my new MacBook out."

00:32:18 ◼   ► So he said pretty much.

00:32:19 ◼   ► So he had a waffle word in there.

00:32:20 ◼   ► So he's learning, learning the ways of the--

00:32:22 ◼   ► word.

00:32:23 ◼   ► Learning the ways of the waffle words. He said, "Pretty much guaranteed," which is

00:32:26 ◼   ► not the same as a guarantee. It's like virtually spotless. Your dishes will have spots. So,

00:32:31 ◼   ► anyway, I gave him a pass. I also agree that they should have more than one port, as previously

00:32:38 ◼   ► discussed, but they don't.

00:32:39 ◼   ► Yeah, I mean, something tells me that we have more to learn from MKBHD than he has to learn

00:32:44 ◼   ► from us. But I think, you know, we've seen a lot of comments since they, so Apple updated

00:32:53 ◼   ► the MacBook One, the 12-inch MacBook, which I call the MacBook One, which actually that

00:32:57 ◼   ► name has stuck around in our circle. I'm actually very proud of that. So Apple has updated the

00:33:03 ◼   ► MacBook One with Skylake CPU this past week, and it is not a big update. And a lot of people

00:33:11 ◼   ► are really expecting basically the impossible from this.

00:33:16 ◼   ► And I can't blame them, I mean, you know,

00:33:18 ◼   ► Apple has cultivated an expectation of like,

00:33:21 ◼   ► products get a lot better in their

00:33:24 ◼   ► second and third generations,

00:33:25 ◼   ► and everything is always getting better all the time,

00:33:27 ◼   ► so shouldn't this get better by leaps and bounds too?

00:33:32 ◼   ► And the reality is that the MacBook One

00:33:36 ◼   ► uses a special, extremely low power consumption

00:33:40 ◼   ► Intel platform. It uses a very low power CPU with a very limited low power chipset to power

00:33:46 ◼   ► everything else also. And one of the core principles of computers today, modern mobile

00:33:54 ◼   ► computers, especially laptops, is that you basically have, you're limited by power and

00:34:02 ◼   ► thermals. And so you have different classes of what kind of performance and what kind

00:34:06 ◼   ► of connectivity, what kind of ports, what kind of luxuries, what kind of speeds, how

00:34:10 ◼   ► and how many cores, these are all determined by,

00:34:14 ◼   ► fundamentally, how much power can you supply the CPU,

00:34:17 ◼   ► and then correspondingly, how much heat can you cool

00:34:20 ◼   ► from being emitted from the CPU.

00:34:22 ◼   ► Like a MacBook Air, those CPUs are something like

00:34:25 ◼   ► 17 watt consumption and heat design.

00:34:29 ◼   ► A 13 inch MacBook, I forget what those are,

00:34:32 ◼   ► something in like the 25 range maybe,

00:34:34 ◼   ► and then a 15 inch with the quad cores,

00:34:36 ◼   ► that's gonna be somewhere in the 40 watt range.

00:34:40 ◼   ► The MacBook One CPU has a five watt range.

00:34:43 ◼   ► A five watt CPU cannot do a whole lot compared to even the 17 watt CPUs in the MacBook Air,

00:34:52 ◼   ► let alone like the nicer 20 or 30 watt CPUs in like a 13 inch MacBook Pro.

00:34:57 ◼   ► The MacBook One is designed, it's fanless, which is one of the biggest limitations of

00:35:02 ◼   ► this because even a little bit of air moving through a heat sink can cool way more effectively

00:35:10 ◼   ► than totally passive cooling systems.

00:35:12 ◼   ► So this thing has no fan, it has a very small battery

00:35:15 ◼   ► inside a very small enclosure.

00:35:17 ◼   ► So the limitations placed on this are such that

00:35:20 ◼   ► the MacBook One, as long as it continues

00:35:23 ◼   ► to be in that size enclosure and not have

00:35:26 ◼   ► an active cooling fan and not have

00:35:28 ◼   ► a substantially bigger battery,

00:35:30 ◼   ► it will never have similar performance

00:35:33 ◼   ► as like even a couple generation old 13 inch MacBook Pro

00:35:38 ◼   ► or even a couple generation old MacBook Air

00:35:42 ◼   ► if the MacBook Air is continued to be updated,

00:35:43 ◼   ► which is a giant if and the answer is probably no.

00:35:45 ◼   ► But people who expected the MacBook One

00:35:50 ◼   ► to be two or three times faster than it was before,

00:35:54 ◼   ► you're gonna be disappointed

00:35:55 ◼   ► because there just isn't enough thermal headroom

00:35:57 ◼   ► in that enclosure.

00:35:59 ◼   ► And desktop or PC CPUs don't make those kind of jumps

00:36:05 ◼   ► in power efficiency in one year.

00:36:07 ◼   ► This computer will never match the MacBook Pro

00:36:11 ◼   ► of like even two or three years ago.

00:36:13 ◼   ► It will, you know, it's very limited by what it can do.

00:36:17 ◼   ► And if you want something,

00:36:18 ◼   ► basically the new MacBook One is something like 20% faster

00:36:23 ◼   ► than the old MacBook One.

00:36:24 ◼   ► I haven't seen a whole bunch of benchmarks yet,

00:36:27 ◼   ► but it's in that ballpark,

00:36:28 ◼   ► in the ballpark of 20% faster and--

00:36:31 ◼   ► - And that's a big bump too,

00:36:32 ◼   ► because like normally when we get new Macs,

00:36:34 ◼   ► it's like oh and the CPU is 15% faster

00:36:36 ◼   ► and you take what you can get.

00:36:37 ◼   ► 20, 25% faster at CPU is nothing to sneeze at.

00:36:40 ◼   ► Like, I don't think this is a bad update.

00:36:42 ◼   ► It is faster and gets more battery life.

00:36:44 ◼   ► That's what updates are supposed to do.

00:36:45 ◼   ► They just didn't add the USB port, whatever.

00:36:47 ◼   ► - Well, exactly, but like, a lot of people,

00:36:49 ◼   ► especially people who have owned the MacBook One,

00:36:52 ◼   ► the previous, you know, the first generation one,

00:36:54 ◼   ► a lot of them, you know, the MacBook One

00:36:55 ◼   ► is a very slow computer.

00:36:57 ◼   ► A lot of them were hoping that this would make it

00:36:59 ◼   ► a reasonably speeded computer, and it just doesn't,

00:37:03 ◼   ► because slow times 1.2 is still slow.

00:37:07 ◼   ► And you're right, 20% in one generation

00:37:11 ◼   ► is a massive jump for PC CPUs these days.

00:37:14 ◼   ► You're lucky to get 5% or 10% most of the time.

00:37:16 ◼   ► So this was a substantial jump.

00:37:19 ◼   ► Skylake was a long time coming,

00:37:21 ◼   ► and it's a major advancement by Intel.

00:37:25 ◼   ► And so they put this in here, and it's still a slow computer.

00:37:29 ◼   ► It still only has one port, and some of that

00:37:31 ◼   ► is because limitations are that low power chipset.

00:37:34 ◼   ► Adding more ports requires more from the chipset,

00:37:37 ◼   ► which this super low power chipset,

00:37:40 ◼   ► for some of the things people want,

00:37:41 ◼   ► doesn't even support it.

00:37:42 ◼   ► For some of the other things,

00:37:44 ◼   ► we don't know why the reasons are that they were omitted,

00:37:45 ◼   ► but they probably have to do with space and power.

00:37:48 ◼   ► So this computer will never be

00:37:51 ◼   ► what the MacBook Air is today.

00:37:53 ◼   ► The role the MacBook Air serves today

00:37:55 ◼   ► requires a little bit more space,

00:37:58 ◼   ► a little bit bigger battery, and a fan.

00:38:00 ◼   ► this is kind of the problem, Apple has replaced

00:38:03 ◼   ► the MacBook Air effectively from the way it appears.

00:38:06 ◼   ► They've replaced the MacBook Air with a computer

00:38:10 ◼   ► that can never replace the MacBook Air.

00:38:12 ◼   ► And it might be irrelevant.

00:38:14 ◼   ► You know, people, a lot of people like this better,

00:38:18 ◼   ► that's fine, the MacBook Pro is likely to get

00:38:22 ◼   ► a lot thinner and lighter when it gets its Skylake updated,

00:38:24 ◼   ► you know, any day now basically, but probably at WVDC.

00:38:28 ◼   ► So the MacBook Air is kind of just left for nothing.

00:38:33 ◼   ► There's now these wonderful 17 watt CPUs that Intel makes

00:38:38 ◼   ► that Apple is just not gonna be using, I guess,

00:38:41 ◼   ► in the future, which seems like a mistake,

00:38:43 ◼   ► but I don't know.

00:38:44 ◼   ► So the MacBook One, in order to get that size,

00:38:48 ◼   ► you're giving up quite a lot, and one of those things is

00:38:52 ◼   ► that computer will never be fast relative to the rest

00:38:55 ◼   ► of the computers, it won't even be remotely competitive.

00:38:58 ◼   ► in compared to the rest of the lineup,

00:38:59 ◼   ► and it will never have the connectivity

00:39:02 ◼   ► of the rest of the lineup.

00:39:03 ◼   ► And if that's what you want,

00:39:03 ◼   ► if you want some kind of modern performance

00:39:07 ◼   ► and decent connectivity,

00:39:08 ◼   ► you're gonna have to go with a bigger model.

00:39:09 ◼   ► And that's not too bad,

00:39:10 ◼   ► 'cause the bigger models are awesome.

00:39:12 ◼   ► - Didn't they get a SSD speed bump too?

00:39:14 ◼   ► - Yes, yeah, faster storage.

00:39:16 ◼   ► - And I think faster storage will probably have more

00:39:18 ◼   ► of an impact on people's lives of that computer

00:39:20 ◼   ► than CPU speed, 'cause I don't think people are using it

00:39:22 ◼   ► to do like big CPU, or they shouldn't be using big CPU

00:39:25 ◼   ► at a test, but everything you do, like,

00:39:27 ◼   ► involves the disk launching things,

00:39:29 ◼   ► and even just web browsing with the disk cache

00:39:31 ◼   ► and everything, so I haven't used one of these in person, but.

00:39:34 ◼   ► - Yeah, but the disk was already fast.

00:39:36 ◼   ► It was already a PCI Express native SSD.

00:39:39 ◼   ► Like, it is, if you look at raw numbers,

00:39:42 ◼   ► it is faster now, and it's faster by a pretty good margin

00:39:46 ◼   ► in disk benchmarks, but the whole machine

00:39:49 ◼   ► is still held back dramatically by the very slow CPU,

00:39:54 ◼   ► and it's very low power ceiling.

00:39:56 ◼   ► You might think, like, I thought when I bought one for a day,

00:39:59 ◼   ► I thought, you know what, what am I doing on a laptop

00:40:02 ◼   ► that needs that much power?

00:40:03 ◼   ► It's like, most of the time I'm just like typing

00:40:05 ◼   ► and answering emails and stuff.

00:40:06 ◼   ► So most of the time it's fine, right?

00:40:08 ◼   ► Well, first of all, typing, hmm, not on that.

00:40:10 ◼   ► But, and also the trackpad, hmm,

00:40:12 ◼   ► that's the worst force-touch trackpad I've ever used.

00:40:16 ◼   ► But you'd be surprised, like, modern OS X

00:40:20 ◼   ► and things you take for granted that do use CPU power,

00:40:23 ◼   ► like viewing your photos.

00:40:25 ◼   ► Like if you wanted to sync your photo library

00:40:29 ◼   ► over to that computer so you could take it with you

00:40:31 ◼   ► and look at it on vacation or add to it on vacation

00:40:33 ◼   ► or do even basic operations on photos

00:40:36 ◼   ► that you take on vacation,

00:40:37 ◼   ► even if they're just photos from your phone,

00:40:39 ◼   ► not from a fancy camera,

00:40:41 ◼   ► that actually does use CPU power on the Mac

00:40:44 ◼   ► and it actually is noticeably annoyingly slow

00:40:48 ◼   ► on that computer for a lot of cases.

00:40:50 ◼   ► So again, it's just like this computer,

00:40:52 ◼   ► if what you want is a decently speedy computer

00:40:57 ◼   ► that you're not gonna ever notice is that slow,

00:41:00 ◼   ► this is not the computer for you,

00:41:01 ◼   ► 'cause it will always be slow.

00:41:03 ◼   ► It can't be fast relative to the rest of the lineup

00:41:06 ◼   ► with that kind of thermal headroom limitation.

00:41:09 ◼   ► - This is the part of the program where I willfully refuse

00:41:12 ◼   ► to look up the Geekbench numbers for this quote unquote

00:41:15 ◼   ► slow MacBook and compare them to the 2008 Mac Pro

00:41:18 ◼   ► that I'm sitting in front of that's the size of a suitcase.

00:41:21 ◼   ► Don't wanna know.

00:41:22 ◼   ► - Moving on.

00:41:23 ◼   ► - I think, just for reference, I'm pretty sure

00:41:25 ◼   ► it'll probably kill you on single threaded,

00:41:27 ◼   ► but I bet you, I think you have at least

00:41:29 ◼   ► double the multi-threaded.

00:41:31 ◼   ► - Let's not discuss.

00:41:32 ◼   ► - What do you have, the 2.66, is that it?

00:41:35 ◼   ► Eight core 2.6?

00:41:37 ◼   ► - I don't even remember, 2.8, right?

00:41:38 ◼   ► Let me see.

00:41:39 ◼   ► - Something like that.

00:41:40 ◼   ► - Yeah, no, 2.8.

00:41:41 ◼   ► - All right, eight core 2.8.

00:41:42 ◼   ► Mac Pro 2008.

00:41:44 ◼   ► - Oh no, don't look it up, what are you doing?

00:41:46 ◼   ► - What did you think he was doing?

00:41:47 ◼   ► John, you should have answered that question, come on.

00:41:50 ◼   ► - It feels fast, I have all the storage.

00:41:52 ◼   ► - Chat room, look at it.

00:41:53 ◼   ► - I've got a terabyte SSD, take that MacBook.

00:41:55 ◼   ► - Listen to you bargaining with yourself.

00:41:57 ◼   ► I have fast storage, it's okay.

00:41:59 ◼   ► - There's no terabyte SSD option in that thing,

00:42:01 ◼   ► even though mine's hooked up to SATA and not PCI Express,

00:42:04 ◼   ► but I don't really think about that either.

00:42:06 ◼   ► - At least it's one USB port is USB 3.

00:42:09 ◼   ► You don't have that either.

00:42:10 ◼   ► - Oh yeah, no I don't have USB 3, but I don't care about that

00:42:12 ◼   ► I have way more USB ports.

00:42:13 ◼   ► (laughing)

00:42:14 ◼   ► My goodness.

00:42:15 ◼   ► Anyway, while we send the chat room off

00:42:18 ◼   ► to figure out how miserable Jon should be.

00:42:21 ◼   ► - Oh my God, you're single threaded

00:42:23 ◼   ► is only 1500 on that Geekbench?

00:42:25 ◼   ► - Shh, shh, shh, don't listen to that.

00:42:27 ◼   ► - That's terrible. - Don't listen.

00:42:29 ◼   ► Cover your many ear holes.

00:42:31 ◼   ► - Our iMacs are 4000.

00:42:33 ◼   ► - Since the 2008 computer, give me a break,

00:42:34 ◼   ► it was fast when I got it.

00:42:36 ◼   ► - The multi-threaded is respectable,

00:42:37 ◼   ► you got 10,000 on the multi-threaded, that is respectable.

00:42:39 ◼   ► But 1500 on single, like iPhones beat that now.

00:42:43 ◼   ► (laughing)

00:42:44 ◼   ► - Yeah, I think my new iPad is faster than this Mac Pro.

00:42:46 ◼   ► (laughing)

00:42:48 ◼   ► Anyway, bumper sounds.

00:42:49 ◼   ► I put this in there because--

00:42:50 ◼   ► - Oh, my apologies. - Last show, yes.

00:42:52 ◼   ► Last show, Marco talked about the bumper sounds

00:42:55 ◼   ► and we discussed the start chimes he used

00:42:57 ◼   ► and he said he wanted to use the Windows XP USB thing

00:42:59 ◼   ► but didn't because I wouldn't like it.

00:43:00 ◼   ► And what did he do in the next show?

00:43:02 ◼   ► He used the USB sound from Windows XP.

00:43:05 ◼   ► And guess what?

00:43:06 ◼   ► I don't like it.

00:43:07 ◼   ► - They're wonderful.

00:43:07 ◼   ► - And guess what?

00:43:08 ◼   ► Everyone else loves it.

00:43:10 ◼   ► - Everyone else does.

00:43:10 ◼   ► - Not everyone else.

00:43:11 ◼   ► The Windows users like it.

00:43:12 ◼   ► They're like, oh, Windows, I remember that.

00:43:13 ◼   ► That's great.

00:43:14 ◼   ► Of course they're gonna like it.

00:43:15 ◼   ► - No, it has nothing to do with that.

00:43:16 ◼   ► The problem is, it's just what Marco said,

00:43:19 ◼   ► I guess it was last episode,

00:43:21 ◼   ► it was just what Marco said,

00:43:22 ◼   ► it's a perfect mirror image.

00:43:24 ◼   ► It's doo doo and doo doo.

00:43:26 ◼   ► It's perfect.

00:43:27 ◼   ► - But they're bad sounds and they're from Windows

00:43:28 ◼   ► and they're from Windows XP, for crying out loud.

00:43:30 ◼   ► - Oh, come on.

00:43:31 ◼   ► - Here's what the Windows XP sounds did.

00:43:33 ◼   ► They made me like the startup chime sounds better,

00:43:35 ◼   ► like by comparison, even though I thought

00:43:37 ◼   ► the startup chimes that he chose

00:43:38 ◼   ► were not the ones that I would have picked,

00:43:40 ◼   ► at least they were Apple sounds

00:43:42 ◼   ► and they weren't from Windows and they weren't,

00:43:44 ◼   ► no, I do not like them.

00:43:45 ◼   ► I do not like the Windows XP.

00:43:47 ◼   ► - This is not the Apple Tech Podcast,

00:43:50 ◼   ► it's the Accidental Tech Podcast.

00:43:51 ◼   ► And we have accidentally--

00:43:53 ◼   ► - Yes, but we talk about Apple all the time,

00:43:54 ◼   ► and none of us even use Windows anymore, and no.

00:43:58 ◼   ► - But we have accidentally backed into

00:44:00 ◼   ► the perfect ad bumper sounds.

00:44:02 ◼   ► Marco, I stand with you, I'm in full support.

00:44:04 ◼   ► - They're not the perfect ad bumper sounds,

00:44:05 ◼   ► they're terrible, and Microsoft's gonna come

00:44:07 ◼   ► and sue you anyway.

00:44:08 ◼   ► (laughing)

00:44:09 ◼   ► - I think Windows XP might be so old

00:44:11 ◼   ► that it might be public domain.

00:44:12 ◼   ► What is it, death of the author plus 75 years?

00:44:14 ◼   ► It gets something like that, right?

00:44:16 ◼   ► - It's close.

00:44:16 ◼   ► - How old is Windows XP?

00:44:17 ◼   ► Doesn't Brian Eno did those sounds?

00:44:19 ◼   ► See, Brian Eno did some Windows sounds,

00:44:20 ◼   ► maybe just for Windows 95.

00:44:22 ◼   ► He's still alive.

00:44:23 ◼   ► - Oh, goodness.

00:44:24 ◼   ► Well, I like them.

00:44:25 ◼   ► Now, I don't wanna get sued into oblivion, but I do like them.

00:44:27 ◼   ► - We're not gonna get sued.

00:44:29 ◼   ► - Well, anyway, I'm filing a formal protest

00:44:31 ◼   ► against the Windows XP USB sounds as ad bumpers.

00:44:33 ◼   ► - So, listeners, feel free to tweet @Saracusa

00:44:36 ◼   ► about how much you love the XP sounds, because we all do.

00:44:40 ◼   ► - Or better yet, the only way it's gonna go away

00:44:42 ◼   ► is if we have better alternatives.

00:44:43 ◼   ► So people should come up with high quality recordings

00:44:45 ◼   ► that are better alternatives that are either from Apple

00:44:47 ◼   ► or from whole cloth that are not related to Windows.

00:44:50 ◼   ► - Or from fish maybe.

00:44:51 ◼   ► - I would accept fish more than Windows.

00:44:53 ◼   ► (laughing)

00:44:55 ◼   ► - Well and also like much of the complaining

00:44:58 ◼   ► about the other sounds I picked, the old Mac sounds,

00:45:00 ◼   ► is that they were like kind of like too jarring.

00:45:02 ◼   ► - Yeah, I agree.

00:45:03 ◼   ► - Windows, Windows sound design is always made

00:45:06 ◼   ► to be so like universally pleasing,

00:45:08 ◼   ► so everybody feels nothing.

00:45:09 ◼   ► Like the Windows sounds are like the sound equivalent

00:45:11 ◼   ► of the paintings in hotel rooms.

00:45:13 ◼   ► Like, you just-- - Yes, moment of history.

00:45:15 ◼   ► - You notice that there's, like, it is nice

00:45:17 ◼   ► when there's sound there, but you don't notice the sound,

00:45:20 ◼   ► and it just, it offends nobody, it's completely bland,

00:45:23 ◼   ► and it's fine.

00:45:25 ◼   ► - I think the login sound is offensive.

00:45:26 ◼   ► You know the login sound?

00:45:28 ◼   ► - Oh, yeah.

00:45:30 ◼   ► (imitates login sound)

00:45:30 ◼   ► - I don't know, the one where you log in,

00:45:32 ◼   ► and the big, ugly Windows XP green grass desktop greets you.

00:45:37 ◼   ► - Well, I thought login was like, "Boo-doo,"

00:45:39 ◼   ► And then the logout was, doo doo doo doo, right?

00:45:42 ◼   ► - Yeah, that's how I remember.

00:45:43 ◼   ► - Maybe I'm remembering it the wrong way.

00:45:44 ◼   ► But anyway, I think some of the windows sounds

00:45:46 ◼   ► are offensive and I think the USB sound,

00:45:48 ◼   ► like it shouldn't be making any sound

00:45:49 ◼   ► when you plug in a USB device.

00:45:50 ◼   ► And I don't like those sounds, thumbs down.

00:45:53 ◼   ► - Well, I'm not gonna get into it.

00:45:55 ◼   ► But the USB stack on OS X is not as good as the window.

00:46:00 ◼   ► Like you can't just unplug a USB stick,

00:46:02 ◼   ► even though I've been using that.

00:46:03 ◼   ► - It's better than with a USB stack,

00:46:04 ◼   ► I guess it's with like buffered IO.

00:46:05 ◼   ► Like you can do flush IO

00:46:08 ◼   ► every single I/O operation and just look wait till the lights not blinking and

00:46:12 ◼   ► yank it out that's barbaric come on why not just go back to drive letters I tell

00:46:18 ◼   ► you what the one thing that it that drives windows you converts crazy anytime

00:46:25 ◼   ► I talk to one and it drives me kind of crazy too is having to unmount drives it

00:46:29 ◼   ► drives people what do you mean after I have to eject it what are you talking

00:46:33 ◼   ► about but that's how a modern I/O system works you don't flush everything to disk

00:46:36 ◼   ► on every operation. That would be crazy pants. You have a buffer and you have to flush that

00:46:40 ◼   ► buffer and you have to know when it's safe to eject something. How do you know when it's

00:46:45 ◼   ► safe? I mean, going back to the old Unix days, type sync twice because it's voodoo and the

00:46:51 ◼   ► second time really counts. And then you can unmount your thing because then you'll know

00:46:55 ◼   ► all the bits have made their way to the disk.

00:46:58 ◼   ► Oh, goodness.

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00:48:16 ◼   ► - WWDC is gonna be a little bit different this year.

00:48:20 ◼   ► I'm probably not gonna know about it in normal Marco.

00:48:23 ◼   ► I'm sorry, I'll compose myself.

00:48:24 ◼   ► There's going to be a different location for Monday.

00:48:28 ◼   ► We are going to be at the Bill Graham Auditorium,

00:48:30 ◼   ► which we briefly made mention of earlier.

00:48:32 ◼   ► This is a change from at least before 2011.

00:48:35 ◼   ► I mean, like I said, I've been going since 2011, Marco, since '09, is that right?

00:48:39 ◼   ► Yeah.

00:48:40 ◼   ► No, I mean, they've never done something like this in San Francisco as far as I know.

00:48:43 ◼   ► They used to be back, if you go back far enough, and if you include Macworlds, then they have

00:48:47 ◼   ► like, you know, things in Boston and everything, but that was all before our time.

00:48:51 ◼   ► Right.

00:48:52 ◼   ► So, Monday, the way Mondays typically work in the past was you would line up absurdly

00:48:59 ◼   ► early outside of Moscone, which is where the conference is.

00:49:02 ◼   ► You would be let in uncomfortably close to the time of the keynote, usually anyway.

00:49:09 ◼   ► You would walk up to three, or you would migrate your way up to the third floor, which is where

00:49:12 ◼   ► the keynote was.

00:49:13 ◼   ► Then there would be a mad stampede into the keynote room.

00:49:16 ◼   ► There'd be the keynote.

00:49:17 ◼   ► Everyone would get punted downstairs to eat, and then you would come back up and you would

00:49:22 ◼   ► watch the developer State of the Union, which was kind of like a keynote, but for nerdier

00:49:26 ◼   ► types.

00:49:28 ◼   ► And then Tuesday through Friday was just regular conference time.

00:49:31 ◼   ► This year, apparently, on Monday, it's all going to be in the Bill Graham Auditorium.

00:49:36 ◼   ► And actually, even the check-in on Sunday, the way it always used to work was you could

00:49:40 ◼   ► check in in Moscone on Sunday.

00:49:42 ◼   ► Now that check-in is apparently at the Bill Graham Auditorium on Sunday.

00:49:45 ◼   ► And then All Day Monday is at the auditorium.

00:49:49 ◼   ► That's where the keynote will be.

00:49:50 ◼   ► That's where the State of the Union will be.

00:49:52 ◼   ► Is there anything else that evening?

00:49:54 ◼   ► I feel like there's one other thing.

00:49:55 ◼   ► ADAs, right? Apple Design Awards. That's right. That's going to be on Monday

00:50:00 ◼   ► night, all at the Bill Graham Auditorium. And then the thing that used to be called

00:50:04 ◼   ► the Beer Bash, now I guess it's called the WWDC Bash, that used to be at Yerba Buena

00:50:09 ◼   ► Gardens, which is this park just a couple of blocks from Moscone. Now that's also going

00:50:14 ◼   ► to be at the Bill Graham Auditorium, so it's not going to be outdoors anymore, and it's

00:50:18 ◼   ► going to be off-site again as well. Well, further off-site anyway. And this is all a

00:50:22 ◼   ► bit of a change. And there was a funny tweet by a friend of the show, Craig Hockenberry.

00:50:27 ◼   ► I don't know if he is being snarky or not because I don't know enough about San Francisco,

00:50:30 ◼   ► but it reads as follows, "Seriously, do not take a direct route from your WWDC hotel to

00:50:35 ◼   ► Bill Graham. Get onto Market Street and pay attention from Powell to the Civic Center."

00:50:40 ◼   ► Apparently because that area, which is I guess the tenderloin, I'm sorry San Franciscans,

00:50:45 ◼   ► is a little bit rough. So there's transportation for the beer bash or the WWDC bash. I don't

00:50:52 ◼   ► believe there's any for the keynote on Monday.

00:50:55 ◼   ► Yeah, the bigger venue makes sense in terms of wanting, we talked about before, wanting

00:50:59 ◼   ► more press like they did with the watch event, where they just invite everybody, "Sure, come

00:51:03 ◼   ► out, we will accept your coverage and we need more room for you." So it's WWC attendees

00:51:08 ◼   ► and tons and tons of press, come look at whatever it is we're going to announce. State of the

00:51:12 ◼   ► Union? Eh, I feel like, I mean the only reason they're holding it there is because that's

00:51:16 ◼   ► where the keynote is and you're not going to make everybody move from one location to

00:51:18 ◼   ► the other, but I imagine a lot of the crowd will disappear once they bring the engineering

00:51:21 ◼   ► people up and start talking about techy stuff. The Bash? I don't know why that's not outdoors.

00:51:28 ◼   ► It's kind of nice when it was outdoors. I mean, they had weird food and the band was

00:51:33 ◼   ► kind of a mess because half the crowd would be paying attention to the band and the other

00:51:36 ◼   ► half would be trying to hear each other over the sound of the band.

00:51:38 ◼   ► I think that's generous. For me, The Bash has always been uncomfortable because you

00:51:45 ◼   ► have a band on one side and usually, you know, it's a band that like, the people there usually

00:51:50 ◼   ► have heard of the band. At least many of them have heard of the band.

00:51:53 ◼   ► Or at least their popular song. Like, "Oh yeah, I know that one song."

00:51:58 ◼   ► But the people who are there are not there for the band. It's all the WBC attendees,

00:52:05 ◼   ► they're mostly to talk to each other. And so you have this band off on one side playing

00:52:09 ◼   ► on the stage, playing mostly to people's backs, and there's this huge open area in front of

00:52:17 ◼   ► stage where nobody wants to stand because everyone's trying to get away from the band

00:52:21 ◼   ► so they can hear each other talk. So the band is playing to effectively a bunch of people

00:52:26 ◼   ► who would rather they turn the volume down and stop. It's a terrible gig for the band.

00:52:33 ◼   ► Like it is so awkward and I feel so bad. Like the band will finish a song and there will

00:52:39 ◼   ► be literally like four people near them clapping and everyone else just like dead silent.

00:52:43 ◼   ► It's not that bad sometimes. Oh, yes a little a little group of fans who are close by who are actually into it

00:52:49 ◼   ► I mean like the band is a separate thing

00:52:51 ◼   ► But like I feel like the people who are not there for the band their needs are not served much better than the band

00:52:55 ◼   ► I'm gonna think about it being in Bill Graham Auditorium if there's going to be a band. There's no way to run from that band

00:53:01 ◼   ► There's nowhere to hide like you just get to me

00:53:03 ◼   ► That's why like I'm curious about this because it sounds like that would make all the problems worse

00:53:07 ◼   ► Yeah

00:53:07 ◼   ► well

00:53:07 ◼   ► No

00:53:08 ◼   ► it would made eliminate the problem in terms of if the only reason you would possibly go to it is if you want to see

00:53:12 ◼   ► the band because you're not gonna be able to have any discussion with anybody in the

00:53:15 ◼   ► giant auditorium with a huge sound system. It's like when U2 played at the watch event,

00:53:19 ◼   ► it's not like people were having conversations in the back of the room. You couldn't hear

00:53:21 ◼   ► yourself think.

00:53:22 ◼   ► Yeah, I don't know. We'll see how it goes.

00:53:24 ◼   ► How great would it be if the band was U2 and they only played Songs of Innocence?

00:53:30 ◼   ► That's not a bad album, you know, first of all.

00:53:32 ◼   ► I had a feeling.

00:53:34 ◼   ► The single they chose to play off of the watch event, eh, you know, not the best song. Anyway,

00:53:39 ◼   ► not going to be you two again. But if it was, I would go.

00:53:44 ◼   ► I didn't even go to the Bash last year.

00:53:45 ◼   ► Yeah, I don't think I've seen you there in several years now.

00:53:48 ◼   ► Yeah, I usually have conflicts with other things. But the times I've gone to the Bash,

00:53:52 ◼   ► I have enjoyed it. We've hid way in the back, and you go from circle of people to circle

00:53:56 ◼   ► of people, and you yell really loud until your voices don't give out. But it's the one

00:54:00 ◼   ► time I feel like I get to see everybody, because everybody, all the people I know are hiding

00:54:05 ◼   ► in the back in little clusters, and I can find them. Whereas during the conference,

00:54:08 ◼   ► you happen to pick the same session as somebody, you see where they're sitting, you can talk

00:54:10 ◼   ► to them briefly before or after, but the bashes, you know, it's a gathering of people and it's

00:54:14 ◼   ► like the end of the conference and I have fond memories of the few years that I went

00:54:19 ◼   ► there. It's just not ideal for the purpose that I would like to use it for.

00:54:25 ◼   ► But I think that's like what most, like, I think most people are there to socialize.

00:54:29 ◼   ► They're not there to see a band. And Yerba Wayne was already like, it was crowded in

00:54:34 ◼   ► Like even like trying to walk through and just like get from one side of the other or to get to the food things

00:54:40 ◼   ► Or to you know to leave or to enter you were going it was such a crowd

00:54:45 ◼   ► It was like walking through Times Square

00:54:46 ◼   ► Like it's you're like trying to like wedge between people to like weave through like it was always very densely packed

00:54:52 ◼   ► At least in recent years just look for Craig Hockenberry's head and navigate based on that

00:54:56 ◼   ► It's so true for those who don't know Craig Hockenberry is approximately 13 feet tall about that

00:55:03 ◼   ► So the bash is gonna be at Bill Graham. I don't know I

00:55:06 ◼   ► That's a weird setup. Like you guys said and I do feel for the bands that play the bash because they usually

00:55:11 ◼   ► Whether or not you like the music generally speaking the bands are good and they're typically up-and-coming bands

00:55:17 ◼   ► but just like Marco said it's the worst gig in the world because at least half if not

00:55:20 ◼   ► 3/4 of the of the audience has their back to you because they are not paying attention to you at all

00:55:26 ◼   ► They just want to talk and God I feel for them. It was a lottery again this year

00:55:30 ◼   ► Obviously, I have very mixed feelings about well. No, I don't have mixed feelings about it

00:55:33 ◼   ► I'm very sad at the way the lottery turned out selfishly speaking, but wait, I just got in seriously. Yeah

00:55:39 ◼   ► I just got the email. Oh, so you told you

00:55:41 ◼   ► 25th you have until nothing for me. Sorry Casey. That's okay

00:55:46 ◼   ► So yeah, so the lottery

00:55:49 ◼   ► Generally speaking. I think I'm pretty heavily in favor of it. It's the least

00:55:55 ◼   ► Crappy alternative I think that we have

00:55:59 ◼   ► And we talked about this around a year ago

00:56:02 ◼   ► I don't think I'm gonna spend the time to dig up what episode or episodes it were it was in the show notes

00:56:07 ◼   ► It might have even been two years ago when this was a new thing. But anyways, I do think even as someone

00:56:12 ◼   ► Who has as we record now still does not have a ticket

00:56:17 ◼   ► I do think it's the most fair way of doing things and I am in support of it because even though I appreciated

00:56:24 ◼   ► Being Johnny on the spot when back when there was at least a moment to to to order

00:56:30 ◼   ► I just laugh because the when I whenever I hear anybody say Johnny on the spot

00:56:35 ◼   ► I can only think of the brand of portable toilet of that name. That was all over my baseball fields at my youth

00:56:42 ◼   ► Okay

00:56:44 ◼   ► I don't even know what to make of that. So when you say I was John in the spot like no, that's not

00:56:48 ◼   ► That's not how I perceive that phrase

00:56:53 ◼   ► Well, in any case, I was very quick to order a ticket back when you had some amount of

00:57:00 ◼   ► control over such things.

00:57:03 ◼   ► And I do think that in the grand scheme of things, the lottery is the best way to do

00:57:07 ◼   ► it.

00:57:08 ◼   ► One other idea that I heard about Billy Graham being a larger venue is that they are anticipating

00:57:14 ◼   ► a fall-off in terms of attendance and potentially could invite more people.

00:57:19 ◼   ► I have no idea if this is true, but this is a theory that I heard.

00:57:22 ◼   ► So say they can invite 5,000 people,

00:57:23 ◼   ► because that's what Moscone holds.

00:57:25 ◼   ► 5,000 people go to the keynote and say to the union,

00:57:27 ◼   ► and then the next day comes,

00:57:29 ◼   ► and 4,000 people show up to go to sessions

00:57:31 ◼   ► for the rest of the week, right?

00:57:33 ◼   ► So if you have a larger venue for Billy Graham,

00:57:36 ◼   ► you could have, for the keynote,

00:57:38 ◼   ► you could have, invite more people and expect,

00:57:40 ◼   ► kind of like how you expect like no-shows or whatever,

00:57:43 ◼   ► or restaurant reservations, like essentially overbook it

00:57:46 ◼   ► to account for the fact that a lot of people

00:57:49 ◼   ► are just gonna go to the first day's festivities

00:57:51 ◼   ► and will not appear every single day

00:57:52 ◼   ► for the rest of the conference.

00:57:54 ◼   ► That is a theory I heard.

00:57:55 ◼   ► I don't put much stock in it,

00:57:56 ◼   ► but it is another potential benefit.

00:57:59 ◼   ► Getting back to the lottery,

00:58:00 ◼   ► like how do you deal with the fact

00:58:01 ◼   ► that more people wanna come than can go?

00:58:03 ◼   ► You can move into a different city, to a bigger venue,

00:58:05 ◼   ► you can use more of Moscone.

00:58:07 ◼   ► Maybe this is like a weird hybrid solution, we'll see.

00:58:10 ◼   ► - Also, I think, so Billy Graham versus Bill Graham,

00:58:14 ◼   ► I assume this is different, right?

00:58:17 ◼   ► 'Cause you keep saying Billy Graham, that's very different.

00:58:20 ◼   ► I think this is somebody else, right?

00:58:22 ◼   ► - Yeah, I'm misspeaking in my typical way.

00:58:25 ◼   ► Please autocorrect what I'm saying to the place

00:58:28 ◼   ► where the WWDC keynote is being held.

00:58:30 ◼   ► If I had said the wrong place,

00:58:31 ◼   ► just pretend I didn't say that.

00:58:32 ◼   ► Pretend I said the right thing.

00:58:34 ◼   ► - It appears that Bill Graham was a concert promoter,

00:58:37 ◼   ► and that's probably who the auditorium was named after,

00:58:40 ◼   ► right, and then Billy Graham is--

00:58:43 ◼   ► - Was not. - Not concert promoter.

00:58:45 ◼   ► - His friends could have called him Billy, you don't know.

00:58:48 ◼   ► - Oh, goodness.

00:58:49 ◼   ► - Okay.

00:58:50 ◼   ► - I don't even know where to go from here.

00:58:52 ◼   ► In any case, the other thing that was interesting was,

00:58:57 ◼   ► I don't recall how this was last year

00:58:59 ◼   ► because I did get a ticket last year,

00:59:01 ◼   ► but I'll find out this year.

00:59:03 ◼   ► - Check your email, I don't know.

00:59:04 ◼   ► - Just keep hitting refresh.

00:59:06 ◼   ► - Yeah, that's totally gonna work.

00:59:07 ◼   ► - If it makes you feel any better,

00:59:08 ◼   ► I also just got the email from Tesla

00:59:10 ◼   ► advertising all the new features of the Model S

00:59:12 ◼   ► that my car doesn't have.

00:59:13 ◼   ► - Oh, that makes me feel marginally better,

00:59:14 ◼   ► but they're going to be broadcasting,

00:59:17 ◼   ► Actually, let me read the quote from the website.

00:59:19 ◼   ► "We will be live streaming sessions daily

00:59:23 ◼   ► and posting videos of all our sessions

00:59:24 ◼   ► throughout the week of the conference."

00:59:26 ◼   ► Did they live stream anything

00:59:27 ◼   ► other than like Monday last year?

00:59:29 ◼   ► I had thought they were very, very quick on the turnaround,

00:59:32 ◼   ► but I don't recall them live streaming regular sessions.

00:59:36 ◼   ► Is that true?

00:59:37 ◼   ► - Live streaming, that means

00:59:38 ◼   ► they've opened the door to Streakers.

00:59:41 ◼   ► (laughing)

00:59:43 ◼   ► Thousands of developers around the world are watching,

00:59:46 ◼   ► learning about core foundation and then all of a sudden from the corner runs

00:59:50 ◼   ► right across the stage. Was that guy English? Of all the people who I've

01:00:01 ◼   ► seen you know comment on the fact they're live streaming this year this

01:00:06 ◼   ► concern is unique to you John. Well no it's kind of like the same way like they

01:00:11 ◼   ► got rid of the Q&A meant it used to be that the end of the session they would have Q&A

01:00:14 ◼   ► and they got rid of that for it was just not constructive use of everyone's time.

01:00:17 ◼   ► That was terrible.

01:00:18 ◼   ► Because you know what Q&A's are like. But on the other hand, sometimes you got some amusing

01:00:22 ◼   ► or interesting questions. There was the time they bailed on the Q&A about the App Store because

01:00:27 ◼   ► people were really angry and they didn't want to deal with that. So they just ended it.

01:00:30 ◼   ► So Q&A is another example where you don't know what you're going to get. You have a prepared

01:00:35 ◼   ► presentation and you give it and then anything can happen. And when you're there at WWDC,

01:00:40 ◼   ► sometimes people yell something out from the audience that's funny that doesn't make it into

01:00:44 ◼   ► into the video because they edited it out

01:00:46 ◼   ► or they edit out the little aside.

01:00:47 ◼   ► Usually people being excited about a new API

01:00:49 ◼   ► or a new parameter or something very nerdy like that.

01:00:52 ◼   ► This is one of the unique benefits of being there in person.

01:00:54 ◼   ► Anyway, if they live stream it

01:00:56 ◼   ► and someone was to yell something out in the audience,

01:00:59 ◼   ► then that would make it to the live stream,

01:01:01 ◼   ► but probably not to the recorded one that they edit down.

01:01:03 ◼   ► - Oh, def, I mean, like the recorded ones,

01:01:05 ◼   ► they edit out like applause and laughter

01:01:07 ◼   ► and like any little tiny slip up, they edit that out too.

01:01:11 ◼   ► The recorded ones, they are extremely unfun.

01:01:15 ◼   ► - Yeah, I agree.

01:01:16 ◼   ► Anything else on WWDC?

01:01:20 ◼   ► Enjoy, you two.

01:01:21 ◼   ► - You're gonna get in too.

01:01:22 ◼   ► - Plenty of time, you got three days, Casey.

01:01:24 ◼   ► Three whole days for Apple PR to listen to this podcast.

01:01:28 ◼   ► (laughing)

01:01:29 ◼   ► - I'm sure.

01:01:29 ◼   ► All Apple PR wants to do is listen

01:01:31 ◼   ► to the Accidental Tech podcast.

01:01:33 ◼   ► That's how they spend their Saturday night.

01:01:34 ◼   ► - That's all they do.

01:01:35 ◼   ► What else do they have to do with their time?

01:01:36 ◼   ► - Well, actually, it's not even gonna be released.

01:01:38 ◼   ► Yeah, Marco, you gotta release this tomorrow.

01:01:39 ◼   ► Give me a chance here.

01:01:40 ◼   ► - Okay.

01:01:41 ◼   ► (laughing)

01:01:42 ◼   ► - I'm just kidding.

01:01:44 ◼   ► - We are also sponsored tonight by Ring,

01:01:46 ◼   ► the Ring Video Doorbell.

01:01:48 ◼   ► Go to ring.com/ATP to see the Ring Video Doorbell.

01:01:51 ◼   ► Now, video doorbells are pretty cool gadgets,

01:01:54 ◼   ► and there's lots of reasons to have them

01:01:56 ◼   ► for convenience, of course.

01:01:57 ◼   ► You can see who's at your door, you can respond,

01:02:00 ◼   ► and what's really cool is

01:02:01 ◼   ► there's advanced motion detection here.

01:02:03 ◼   ► This alerts you whether or not

01:02:05 ◼   ► somebody actually rings the doorbell or not.

01:02:07 ◼   ► If there's just a person who walks up to your door,

01:02:10 ◼   ► Ring will alert you about that too.

01:02:11 ◼   ► It's like caller ID for your house.

01:02:13 ◼   ► Like, no matter whether somebody rings the doorbell or not,

01:02:15 ◼   ► they alert you to it.

01:02:17 ◼   ► And they also, this is the cool thing about this,

01:02:19 ◼   ► they alert you regardless of whether you're home or not.

01:02:22 ◼   ► Because it uses your phone in addition

01:02:24 ◼   ► to your actual doorbell, like, ringer.

01:02:26 ◼   ► So if you're not home, you still get notified

01:02:29 ◼   ► and you can respond through two-way audio

01:02:32 ◼   ► through the Ring doorbell.

01:02:33 ◼   ► So you can pretend like you're home,

01:02:36 ◼   ► you can tell a delivery person,

01:02:37 ◼   ► to leave the package there, you know, whatever else.

01:02:40 ◼   ► So the advantages here are not only your convenience,

01:02:42 ◼   ► but also safety for your home and your possessions.

01:02:45 ◼   ► Because Ring has found that over 95% of home break-ins

01:02:50 ◼   ► and burglaries happen during the day.

01:02:52 ◼   ► And burglars usually start by ringing your doorbell

01:02:54 ◼   ► to see if somebody's home.

01:02:56 ◼   ► And of course, if they're home,

01:02:58 ◼   ► they generally move on, right?

01:02:59 ◼   ► So with the Ring Video Doorbell,

01:03:01 ◼   ► it can actually be a security benefit as well,

01:03:03 ◼   ► not only showing you when people walk up to your door

01:03:04 ◼   ► and having a record of that,

01:03:06 ◼   ► But also, it can help deter people.

01:03:09 ◼   ► First of all, they know they're being watched

01:03:10 ◼   ► once you respond, and they'll think you're home,

01:03:13 ◼   ► and so they'll move on.

01:03:14 ◼   ► And it can really, they've actually found,

01:03:16 ◼   ► in studies and in test trials,

01:03:18 ◼   ► they've actually found drops in break-in rates

01:03:21 ◼   ► when ring video doorbells are installed.

01:03:23 ◼   ► It's really quite effective at that.

01:03:25 ◼   ► So in addition to all the incredible convenience features

01:03:27 ◼   ► of having a video doorbell,

01:03:29 ◼   ► it's pretty great for home security as well.

01:03:31 ◼   ► So check it out today.

01:03:32 ◼   ► It can work with your existing wiring for your doorbell,

01:03:35 ◼   ► or they also have a model that uses a battery

01:03:37 ◼   ► so you don't need to wire it.

01:03:38 ◼   ► Check it out today, it's incredibly easy to install.

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01:03:49 ◼   ► It really is worth checking out.

01:03:50 ◼   ► So check it out today.

01:03:51 ◼   ► Listeners get a free, extra shipping rate by using our code.

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01:03:59 ◼   ► Check it out today with the Ring Video Doorbell,

01:04:01 ◼   ► you're always home.

01:04:02 ◼   ► Go to ring.com/atp now.

01:04:04 ◼   ► Thanks a lot.

01:04:05 ◼   ► [DING]

01:04:06 ◼   ► Uh, Jon, while you were on vacation in California, forgetting what reality was, um, you bought

01:04:11 ◼   ► some new hardware.

01:04:12 ◼   ► I got to buy it in the, uh, official Apple store.

01:04:15 ◼   ► I don't know what you call it.

01:04:16 ◼   ► It's the, the one in one infinite loop.

01:04:18 ◼   ► They have a little Apple store there.

01:04:19 ◼   ► The company store.

01:04:20 ◼   ► I'm, I'm told that it used to look very different, but now it just looks like a regular Apple

01:04:24 ◼   ► store.

01:04:25 ◼   ► I think it used to have, like, racks of clothes in it and stuff, and you can buy, like, like,

01:04:28 ◼   ► mugs and silly things like that.

01:04:29 ◼   ► I don't know.

01:04:30 ◼   ► I never went to it.

01:04:31 ◼   ► Is that all gone?

01:04:32 ◼   ► I, I've only seen the old one.

01:04:33 ◼   ► haven't seen the new one. Yeah, the new one just looks like an Apple

01:04:35 ◼   ► store. It's a bunch of tables, it's got a big screen on two of the walls. It's really

01:04:38 ◼   ► neat. Have you seen with these screens? I don't know how they work. It's like a cloth

01:04:41 ◼   ► type thing. I assume it's rear projection or something. Anyway.

01:04:44 ◼   ► Can you still buy t-shirts and stuff? They do have t-shirts. They're displayed very strangely.

01:04:49 ◼   ► They're like stretched over these little rectangles so you can't tell that they're shirts. You

01:04:53 ◼   ► just have to assume that the fabric stretched into that rectangle shape has sleeves and

01:04:56 ◼   ► a place for your head to come out and stuff. But yeah, you can buy t-shirts. In fact, I

01:05:02 ◼   ► I saw someone there buying a lot of t-shirts and I was just adding up how much they must

01:05:04 ◼   ► cost because each one of those t-shirts is surely like 30 bucks or something.

01:05:08 ◼   ► Anyway.

01:05:09 ◼   ► Oh yeah, they're not well priced.

01:05:10 ◼   ► Yeah, I meant to buy it, buy something before I left, but as the date approached, you worried

01:05:15 ◼   ► that the shipping's gonna come and you're gonna be on a plane.

01:05:17 ◼   ► I'm like, "You know what?

01:05:18 ◼   ► I'm going there.

01:05:20 ◼   ► I can just go to Apple and get it."

01:05:22 ◼   ► So I did.

01:05:23 ◼   ► I got myself a normal-sized iPad Pro and a pencil and the smart cover and I got the back

01:05:31 ◼   ► silicone cover thing as well. And I also got a replacement iPad for my son. He got the

01:05:38 ◼   ► Air. This is his combined birthday present with a bunch of other things. Replacing his

01:05:42 ◼   ► iPad 2 that he's destroyed, utterly destroyed. So hopefully now that he's older and a little

01:05:48 ◼   ► bit wiser he will not utterly destroy this iPad but it'll be a big upgrade from his non-retina

01:05:53 ◼   ► iPad 2 that he's been using. But the Pro, I mean as you would imagine upgrading from

01:05:58 ◼   ► an iPad 3. It's fantastic. Everything is fast and beautiful and the screen is amazing. I

01:06:04 ◼   ► left True Tone on. I tried the little demo of it on and off. I was worried that it would

01:06:09 ◼   ► bother me that I would notice, but I don't. And I think it's great and I think the screen

01:06:13 ◼   ► is amazing and I'm really happy about it. The silicone back thing, I don't know what

01:06:17 ◼   ► you call it, the case, that's the only question mark. I have it on now. It's only the back,

01:06:21 ◼   ► so it's not the front. The smart cover I have on the front. The back and the front fit together

01:06:25 ◼   ► really nicely, which looks neat when it's all closed up, but it makes it harder to open,

01:06:30 ◼   ► you have to sort of find where the edge is.

01:06:33 ◼   ► With the Smart Cover you can do that Smart Cover thing that I think everyone unconsciously

01:06:36 ◼   ► does where you can slide out the Smart Cover slightly to get it poking off the edge of

01:06:40 ◼   ► the iPad and then pull it up with your thumb, you know what I'm talking about?

01:06:44 ◼   ► With the case it kind of seats together and it's a little bit harder to get the edge,

01:06:47 ◼   ► and when you're holding it of course there's a little lip around the whole thing, of two

01:06:52 ◼   ► minds on the lip.

01:06:53 ◼   ► is bad in that it's, you know, it's a little ridge where once it was smooth, but it is

01:06:58 ◼   ► good coming from the iPad 3 in that I wish the borders around the iPad were a little

01:07:02 ◼   ► bit bigger for thumb gripping, and that little ridge gives an extra grippy area to make up

01:07:06 ◼   ► for the fact that the sides, when held in portrait orientation, are not as wide.

01:07:11 ◼   ► And also it doesn't block the speakers, there are little holes in the case for the four

01:07:15 ◼   ► speakers to come out, but I wonder if it's affecting the audio quality, although the

01:07:19 ◼   ► audio quality is, again, so much better than this stupid one little tinny speaker on my

01:07:23 ◼   ► My iPad 3, it's amazing.

01:07:25 ◼   ► I heartily recommend not upgrading your iOS device

01:07:29 ◼   ► for however many years I kept that iPad 3

01:07:31 ◼   ► because wow, what an upgrade.

01:07:32 ◼   ► - Well you've also, like, if you look at the iPad lineup

01:07:35 ◼   ► in retrospect, they're all pretty good.

01:07:38 ◼   ► Like there really weren't any bad iPads.

01:07:41 ◼   ► But if you had to pick one as the worst iPad ever released,

01:07:44 ◼   ► it's the iPad 3.

01:07:46 ◼   ► - I would say the iPad 4, I think the iPad 4 is worse.

01:07:48 ◼   ► 'Cause here's why. - No, what?

01:07:50 ◼   ► - iPad 4 was the iPad 3, but with a faster processor

01:07:53 ◼   ► and the lightning port, right?

01:07:54 ◼   ► - Yeah, but-- - But you had to wait

01:07:56 ◼   ► later to get that.

01:07:57 ◼   ► You got the iPad 3, it was the first Retina one,

01:07:59 ◼   ► and you feel like, I waited, that's what I did.

01:08:00 ◼   ► I waited a really long time, I wasn't gonna buy them

01:08:02 ◼   ► when they're Retina, and I bought it when it was Retina.

01:08:04 ◼   ► When the 4 came out, I didn't feel bad,

01:08:05 ◼   ► because one came out that was slightly faster

01:08:07 ◼   ► and had a lightning port, I felt good

01:08:09 ◼   ► that I had the Retina one while, for the three months

01:08:11 ◼   ► that people were waiting for the 4.

01:08:12 ◼   ► And the battery life has been great, and like,

01:08:15 ◼   ► I mean, the iPad 3 is a great iPad, I feel like.

01:08:17 ◼   ► Yes, it was big and it was hot, but--

01:08:19 ◼   ► - Yeah, but you know, like I said,

01:08:20 ◼   ► - None of the iPads have been really bad,

01:08:22 ◼   ► but just like, you know, if you had to pick one

01:08:24 ◼   ► as the worst, I think everybody would agree

01:08:26 ◼   ► the iPad 3 was the worst of these pretty good products.

01:08:30 ◼   ► - I would pick the Mini with the two internals,

01:08:32 ◼   ► I think, was worse, because you have to account

01:08:34 ◼   ► for the time that it was released.

01:08:35 ◼   ► The Mini with the two internals was released after the two,

01:08:38 ◼   ► but it was as slow as the two, and it was non-retina,

01:08:40 ◼   ► and I think that was the dog of the iPad line.

01:08:43 ◼   ► Anyway, I've enjoyed my iPad 3, it's served me well.

01:08:46 ◼   ► - It's a reasonable counter-argument.

01:08:48 ◼   ► It served me well, but I think this iPad is going to go down as one of the really good

01:08:52 ◼   ► ones because it is very impressive and it's a big step up from the other ones.

01:08:57 ◼   ► I haven't really used the Pencil yet, so I don't know what I'm going to use the Pencil

01:09:01 ◼   ► for.

01:09:02 ◼   ► I'm debating trying to use it for navigation now that all of the people fought for my right

01:09:06 ◼   ► to use it for navigation.

01:09:07 ◼   ► All right, well, maybe I'll try it for that.

01:09:10 ◼   ► I just bought it because – I mean, I've used it in the store and everything.

01:09:12 ◼   ► I know what it's like.

01:09:13 ◼   ► But I just bought it because it supports it and I'll surely find something to do with

01:09:17 ◼   ► it and if not I'll have this neat little accessory.

01:09:21 ◼   ► Yeah I'm enjoying it.

01:09:22 ◼   ► Oh and what I didn't enjoy was iTunes.

01:09:25 ◼   ► Nobody enjoys iTunes.

01:09:26 ◼   ► I brought my iPad 3 with me on the trip expecting to do a full encrypted iTunes backup and then

01:09:33 ◼   ► plug in the new iPad and restore my encrypted iTunes backup onto it and so basically just

01:09:38 ◼   ► what I had on my iPad 3 now is on my new iPad Pro.

01:09:42 ◼   ► That seems like it should work.

01:09:43 ◼   ► It has worked for me in the past.

01:09:45 ◼   ► I did the backup from the iPad 3 to the computer that I brought with me, and that worked fine.

01:09:50 ◼   ► And then I tried to restore onto the iPad Pro, and that did not work fine.

01:09:53 ◼   ► It would take a really long time, halfway through, an error would occur, then the iPad

01:09:58 ◼   ► Pro would reboot, and I tried it many different times in many different permutations, across

01:10:04 ◼   ► reboots, restarting both devices, trying different techniques to, you know, redoing the backups,

01:10:09 ◼   ► I mean, it just never worked.

01:10:12 ◼   ► I spent many, many hours trying to get iTunes to restore onto this.

01:10:14 ◼   ► I had to eventually resort to an iCloud backup, and everyone knows what that's like.

01:10:18 ◼   ► You lose half your stuff that you had there.

01:10:20 ◼   ► I had to re-sign into all my Slack things.

01:10:23 ◼   ► You don't get any of your passwords saved, so you have to re-enter all that information,

01:10:26 ◼   ► and it takes a year and a day to put all your apps back on.

01:10:28 ◼   ► So good old iTunes.

01:10:31 ◼   ► Screwed me one last time.

01:10:32 ◼   ► And we'll continue to, because the next time I get an iOS device, if I have a choice between

01:10:37 ◼   ► doing an encrypted backup and getting all those things and doing it the iCloud way with

01:10:40 ◼   ► the current limitations, I'll still try the iTunes way.

01:10:42 ◼   ► But that was not fun.

01:10:44 ◼   ► Well, I'm glad you got the new hardware and I'm glad you like it. I mean you've been waiting a long long long time

01:10:49 ◼   ► Did you get LTE I did on

01:10:51 ◼   ► Verizon or did you just get the Apple sim one or you don't have a choice when you buy it you just say with cellular

01:10:56 ◼   ► And that's what you get you get with cellular and so mine has cellular and during the setup

01:11:02 ◼   ► It was trying to tell me hey hook it up to it, but I'm not you know well

01:11:05 ◼   ► I'll add it to my Verizon account when I go

01:11:09 ◼   ► WWC which people were asking why would you bother doing that doesn't everyplace have Wi-Fi and you have an iPhone

01:11:14 ◼   ► Everyplace does have Wi-Fi, but Wi-Fi is not made to support

01:11:18 ◼   ► 3,000 nerds with a million devices and so the Wi-Fi is usually not particularly healthy

01:11:24 ◼   ► Tethering in my experience has not worked particularly reliably

01:11:28 ◼   ► The most reliable way to get any kind of internet access in the middle of Moscone

01:11:33 ◼   ► Anyway with a bunch of other nerds in my experience has been

01:11:37 ◼   ► Verizon. Yeah, I couldn't agree with you more. I bought, I've had I think four iPads and this last, the prior one to this one and the one I got for Christmas. Both of them have been with cellular and I couldn't agree with you more that that's the way to do it in general. I mean, it is like $130 more money, so it is fairly expensive, but I really prefer to have an onboard cellular connection if I so desire, even in general, just even outside WWDC.

01:12:07 ◼   ► And then when you're in WWDC, holy crap,

01:12:09 ◼   ► it's so much better being on any cellular network

01:12:13 ◼   ► than it is being on the WWDC wifi,

01:12:16 ◼   ► particularly keynote day.

01:12:18 ◼   ► But I'm not gonna have to worry about that this year.

01:12:20 ◼   ► (laughing)

01:12:21 ◼   ► - You don't know that, you don't know.

01:12:23 ◼   ► - Well also, in so many ways, it just makes sense

01:12:26 ◼   ► to kinda bring your own connection places.

01:12:30 ◼   ► Not only is it generally more consistent and more reliable,

01:12:33 ◼   ► it's also more secure.

01:12:35 ◼   ► You don't have to join somebody's crazy wifi,

01:12:37 ◼   ► I mean, you know, if you're using some kind of VPN software,

01:12:39 ◼   ► that's a little bit different, but like most people,

01:12:42 ◼   ► and you know, we like to think that everything is done

01:12:44 ◼   ► over HTTPS, but it's not still, you know,

01:12:47 ◼   ► there's still a lot of things that aren't.

01:12:48 ◼   ► So I think for most people, using a tethered connection

01:12:52 ◼   ► is way more secure than using some hotel Wi-Fi or something.

01:12:57 ◼   ► - Yep.

01:12:59 ◼   ► Alrighty, well, any other thoughts on your new hardware?

01:13:02 ◼   ► - My color choices for the case were kind of difficult.

01:13:04 ◼   ► I have been going with kind of gray or black in the past.

01:13:07 ◼   ► I almost did it again, but I decided to go with midnight blue this time.

01:13:11 ◼   ► I wish there were other colors that were more exciting.

01:13:12 ◼   ► I really do like the red, but my wife has claimed the red, and so to avoid in-house

01:13:17 ◼   ► confusion, in-house iOS device confusion, I've been kicked out of red, which is exactly

01:13:22 ◼   ► what I would buy.

01:13:23 ◼   ► I wish there was like a better blue that looked more blue, but I went with the midnight blue,

01:13:28 ◼   ► so at least it's not black.

01:13:29 ◼   ► Of course, I got the space gray device, but you can't see any of the space gray because

01:13:33 ◼   ► it's all in a case now.

01:13:34 ◼   ► Yeah, why did you get the silicon case? It seems so peculiar to me. I've never had a back case on any of my iPads.

01:13:38 ◼   ► I know, neither have I. This isn't the first one, but it's so much thinner

01:13:42 ◼   ► than the iPad 3, as you can imagine.

01:13:45 ◼   ► And I like the idea of a little bit of extra protection and a little bit of extra grip. And so far,

01:13:49 ◼   ► I'm like, my problems are not around back.

01:13:51 ◼   ► My problems are like the ridge and opening it. And I'll see, if it annoys me,

01:13:55 ◼   ► I'll take it off and, you know, lesson learned. But so far, I'm keeping it in there.

01:13:58 ◼   ► And I kind of like it. Space grain front, party in the back.

01:14:03 ◼   ► No, it's not space gray in the front. You messed that up. It's black in the front.

01:14:06 ◼   ► Well, so I'm curious so, you know

01:14:12 ◼   ► Like if you if you if you're a beer person you have undoubtedly heard from somebody who has ever drank beer before

01:14:19 ◼   ► That oh, well, you have to go have Guinness at the Guinness Brewery in Ireland. It's so much better there and

01:14:25 ◼   ► Honestly having done that I think it's about the same

01:14:29 ◼   ► Then please don't email me all of Ireland

01:14:33 ◼   ► But I wonder like, should the iPad that you buy

01:14:38 ◼   ► at One Infinite Loop at the company store,

01:14:41 ◼   ► should that be like a little bit better

01:14:43 ◼   ► than all of their iPads?

01:14:44 ◼   ► Should it be like, should it like, you know, smell fresher?

01:14:47 ◼   ► Or should it be like 5% faster or something like that?

01:14:50 ◼   ► Don't you feel like you should have gotten something special?

01:14:52 ◼   ► - Oh yeah, no, the CPU, the CPU is five megahertz faster.

01:14:55 ◼   ► Yeah. - Yeah.

01:14:57 ◼   ► - Didn't tell you that?

01:14:57 ◼   ► No, mine has four gigs of RAM.

01:14:59 ◼   ► (laughing)

01:15:01 ◼   ► No, I think it's about the same.

01:15:03 ◼   ► And the only difference is I think the Apple store

01:15:06 ◼   ► was a little bit less crowded when I went in.

01:15:08 ◼   ► Like when I got in there, I felt like, wow,

01:15:10 ◼   ► this is actually pretty empty for an Apple store.

01:15:13 ◼   ► By the time I was done with my transaction

01:15:15 ◼   ► and picking everything out and getting everything,

01:15:16 ◼   ► everything all packaged up, that store was mobbed.

01:15:18 ◼   ► So I think I just came before the rush.

01:15:21 ◼   ► - Yeah, well, a lot of times,

01:15:22 ◼   ► they'll have tour buses that stop there.

01:15:25 ◼   ► - Yeah, I don't know what, well, I did see a company tour.

01:15:27 ◼   ► Like it was a bunch of people in suits.

01:15:29 ◼   ► I think they were being led around by someone from Apple.

01:15:31 ◼   ► like we have them at our place to important people come and they want to show them like on a big tour and all the

01:15:36 ◼   ► People are all dressed up like they're executives from some other other company

01:15:39 ◼   ► So I saw one group like that and then just a bunch of other people that

01:15:42 ◼   ► Came in a big mob after me

01:15:44 ◼   ► The other advantage is that the the parking lots at Apple are filled with interesting cars both the visitor parking lots and the employee

01:15:50 ◼   ► Parking lots are filled

01:15:51 ◼   ► Much more interesting cars than at the Natick Mall. Sorry Natick Mall

01:15:54 ◼   ► Or the chestnut hill

01:15:58 ◼   ► Yeah, but like get lots of lots of hybrids lots of electric vehicles

01:16:02 ◼   ► I one of the ones I did I think back to everyone show you that the hybrid Panamera

01:16:06 ◼   ► No, I don't think you did it could have been one of those two hundred sixty thousand dollar

01:16:09 ◼   ► Models, it's all black with fancy wheels just tons of neat cars excellent. Yeah, I've never been to infinite loop I

01:16:17 ◼   ► Have always had something else to do

01:16:20 ◼   ► back when they used to do the buses at WWDC like not the official Apple once like

01:16:26 ◼   ► there was an organ is like a group of people that would organize a bus trip down to infinite loop and I

01:16:32 ◼   ► Just always had something else to do. I always visited with a with a good friend of mine and

01:16:36 ◼   ► So I've never ever ever been and Marco you said you've been John obviously you just went and I'm kind of jealous

01:16:42 ◼   ► I'd like to see it sometime especially before it goes away forever. It was organized by a friend of everybody Jeff LaMarche

01:16:48 ◼   ► Mmm, he organized those those pilgrimage bus tours. I don't know if I don't know if anybody still does that

01:16:53 ◼   ► But yeah, those are those were kind of fun

01:16:55 ◼   ► Yeah, it's not like it's going away, but once campus 2 opens up

01:16:57 ◼   ► I imagine a lot of the important things that are currently a one infinite loop will be moved to campus to like Tim Cook's office is

01:17:03 ◼   ► Somewhere there one infinite loop and I assume who hills will move to campus to as will many other people

01:17:07 ◼   ► Maybe the Apple store move. I don't know but this is the last the last moments that one infinite loop is the face of Apple

01:17:13 ◼   ► Yep

01:17:15 ◼   ► Hopefully I'll get to see it sometime maybe well potentially I have a lot of free time that week

01:17:19 ◼   ► So maybe I'll rent a car and go check it out. I'm sad again

01:17:24 ◼   ► Thank you lots for our three sponsors this week Betterment ring and fracture and we will see you next week

01:17:30 ◼   ► Now the show is over they didn't even mean to begin because it was accidental

01:17:39 ◼   ► Accidental

01:17:43 ◼   ► Any research Marco and Casey wouldn't let him because it was accidental

01:17:50 ◼   ► was accidental

01:17:53 ◼   ► And you can find the show notes at ATP.FM And if you're into Twitter, you can follow

01:18:00 ◼   ► them at C-A-S-E-Y-L-I-S-S So that's Kasey Liss M-A-R-C-O-A-R-M

01:18:10 ◼   ► Auntie Marco Armin S-I-R-A-C-U-S-A, Syracuse

01:18:20 ◼   ► It's accidental, accidental.

01:18:23 ◼   ► They didn't mean to.

01:18:25 ◼   ► Accidental, accidental.

01:18:28 ◼   ► Tech podcast so long.

01:18:33 ◼   ► Ah, did you reload your email app?

01:18:36 ◼   ► I've been looking at my bank and then telling myself,

01:18:40 ◼   ► you're just jinxing it.

01:18:41 ◼   ► Stop looking.

01:18:42 ◼   ► Waiting five minutes.

01:18:43 ◼   ► Looking again.

01:18:44 ◼   ► You're jinxing yourself.

01:18:45 ◼   ► Stop looking.

01:18:46 ◼   ► Waiting five minutes.

01:18:47 ◼   ► Why are you jinxing yourself?

01:18:48 ◼   ► Stop jinxing yourself.

01:18:49 ◼   ► Exactly.

01:18:49 ◼   ► stop hitting yourself, stop jinxing yourself,

01:18:51 ◼   ► just stop all the things.

01:18:53 ◼   ► And no, no dice.

01:18:55 ◼   ► Sad Casey is sad.

01:18:57 ◼   ► - So if you wanna have a bit of a neutral,

01:18:59 ◼   ► unless we have something else to talk about.

01:19:00 ◼   ► - I'm talking about my bagel post.

01:19:02 ◼   ► - Oh yeah, first of all, yeah.

01:19:04 ◼   ► So we have to cover your bagel post.

01:19:06 ◼   ► So John, you blogged for the first time in how long?

01:19:10 ◼   ► - Over a year, slightly over a year.

01:19:12 ◼   ► - Okay.

01:19:13 ◼   ► The content of your blog post is a bulleted list.

01:19:19 ◼   ► Can you explain this blog post, please?

01:19:21 ◼   ► So on this podcast, it's not called Developing Perspective

01:19:23 ◼   ► and not called Under the Radar, but it is called Top Four.

01:19:27 ◼   ► Some people, one of whom is here,

01:19:29 ◼   ► talked about their top four bagel varieties or flavors.

01:19:34 ◼   ► And I listened to this podcast on the way out to San Francisco.

01:19:37 ◼   ► I thought I had prepared myself for this podcast.

01:19:41 ◼   ► One person involved in the podcast

01:19:43 ◼   ► grew up on Long Island like I did,

01:19:45 ◼   ► and the other person was Marco.

01:19:46 ◼   ► But I felt like I was ready.

01:19:48 ◼   ► I was not ready for the list that would appear.

01:19:51 ◼   ► I could not have predicted these lists.

01:19:53 ◼   ► They were just more upsetting and fantastical and unexpected than I could have imagined.

01:20:01 ◼   ► I paid for the in-flight Wi-Fi just so I could complain to Marco directly about this podcast.

01:20:06 ◼   ► And I vowed that when I got done with this vacation, I was going to blog again.

01:20:11 ◼   ► And what I was going to blog was a list of canonical bagel flavors.

01:20:15 ◼   ► And that's exactly what I did.

01:20:17 ◼   ► I made a blog post that lists the canonical bagel flavors.

01:20:20 ◼   ► And I feel like this needed to be done for posterity,

01:20:25 ◼   ► that Google will spider it, that archive.org will archive it

01:20:28 ◼   ► somewhere, that someday aliens will dig up our civilization

01:20:32 ◼   ► when we're long gone and find this blog post that is

01:20:34 ◼   ► a sink to the point, not a lot of dancing around.

01:20:37 ◼   ► It's just a list that lists the canonical bagel flavors.

01:20:40 ◼   ► And I feel much better having done it.

01:20:42 ◼   ► And yes, it happens to be about a year since last time.

01:20:46 ◼   ► - Yeah, so obviously I have some nitpicks here.

01:20:49 ◼   ► The flavors you've listed are noticeably missing

01:20:52 ◼   ► some of the ones that we mentioned during our show.

01:20:54 ◼   ► And there are some that we even said during the show

01:20:56 ◼   ► were not canonical old school bagels,

01:20:59 ◼   ► like the Asiago cheese bagel.

01:21:00 ◼   ► You know, that's--

01:21:01 ◼   ► - I don't think you need to say old school.

01:21:04 ◼   ► I didn't want to put a lot of commentary in this

01:21:05 ◼   ► 'cause I don't think it's necessary for the post.

01:21:07 ◼   ► But for the purposes of the podcast,

01:21:09 ◼   ► there is a distinction to be made between

01:21:11 ◼   ► this is not a bagel versus this is a canonical bagel flavor.

01:21:15 ◼   ► You understand?

01:21:16 ◼   ► Like the distinction, like the sort of,

01:21:18 ◼   ► well, let's make up,

01:21:21 ◼   ► I'm trying to make up one that doesn't actually exist

01:21:23 ◼   ► and I don't know if I'm gonna succeed,

01:21:24 ◼   ► but let's say the cheesecake bagel is not a bagel.

01:21:28 ◼   ► - I guarantee you it exists somewhere in the Midwest.

01:21:30 ◼   ► - Someone is making that, right?

01:21:32 ◼   ► But there are bagels on this list that are bagels

01:21:35 ◼   ► that are just not among the canonical bagel flavors.

01:21:37 ◼   ► There were some difficult decisions to make.

01:21:39 ◼   ► I'm not gonna lie,

01:21:40 ◼   ► I thought I was gonna rattle this thing off.

01:21:41 ◼   ► Push came to shove,

01:21:42 ◼   ► I had to make some very hard calls to you

01:21:44 ◼   ► that some people are upset about it.

01:21:45 ◼   ► and I understand their upset.

01:21:47 ◼   ► The big one I feel like is garlic.

01:21:49 ◼   ► Garlic bagel is a bagel, right?

01:21:51 ◼   ► - Oh yeah, so--

01:21:52 ◼   ► - It just missed the list.

01:21:54 ◼   ► - Well, so I'm curious, so like, you have,

01:21:56 ◼   ► obviously you have plain, poppy, sesame, everything.

01:21:58 ◼   ► Those, for bagel places, those are always like the top four

01:22:03 ◼   ► that, that, ding, that always sell.

01:22:05 ◼   ► - Not on your list, not on your list, Mr. Asiago Cheese.

01:22:08 ◼   ► Oh, that was Tiff, sorry.

01:22:09 ◼   ► - By sales volume, actually, I bet Asiago Cheese

01:22:11 ◼   ► is up there for stores that do sell it,

01:22:14 ◼   ► especially those in the Midwest, but--

01:22:15 ◼   ► - Not a bagel, by the way.

01:22:17 ◼   ► - No, it's still, look, so anyway,

01:22:19 ◼   ► there are some inconsistencies, I think, in your list.

01:22:22 ◼   ► So obviously, plain, poppy, sesame, everything,

01:22:25 ◼   ► those have to be on every bagel list,

01:22:27 ◼   ► 'cause just by sales volume, people have voted,

01:22:29 ◼   ► and that's what always goes there.

01:22:30 ◼   ► - No, that's not how this list works.

01:22:31 ◼   ► This list does not work by sales volume.

01:22:33 ◼   ► - Well, but, so I'm curious, you've included onion

01:22:36 ◼   ► and salt, but not garlic. - Yes, yes.

01:22:38 ◼   ► - That seems inconsistent. - That's right.

01:22:40 ◼   ► It's a tough call.

01:22:41 ◼   ► Here's the, here's the, there is a,

01:22:43 ◼   ► if you go through this list,

01:22:44 ◼   ► this list is like a little story, right?

01:22:46 ◼   ► It's not, it's an unordered list, it's OL.

01:22:48 ◼   ► Or it's, it's a, no, UL, right?

01:22:50 ◼   ► It's not OL, it's UL, right?

01:22:51 ◼   ► It's an unordered list, but there is an order.

01:22:53 ◼   ► So I'm not, plain is there,

01:22:55 ◼   ► but it's not next to a number one, next to a bullet point.

01:22:57 ◼   ► But this is the reason it's at the top, right?

01:22:59 ◼   ► It's, you start off and you feel like,

01:23:01 ◼   ► you know, all right, plain, poppy, sesame.

01:23:02 ◼   ► And I spent a long time thinking about

01:23:04 ◼   ► whether poppy or sesame would come second, all right?

01:23:08 ◼   ► Egg, cinnamon raisin, which Marco keeps omitting

01:23:11 ◼   ► for some strange reason.

01:23:12 ◼   ► - Well, it's further down the list.

01:23:13 ◼   ► And by sales volume, by the way,

01:23:15 ◼   ► I think Sesame outdoes Poppy.

01:23:17 ◼   ► - Sales volume does not factor into this.

01:23:20 ◼   ► - I think sales volume,

01:23:21 ◼   ► it would be plain everything Sesame Poppy.

01:23:24 ◼   ► - It depends on where it's being sold and who's buying.

01:23:28 ◼   ► So, cinnamon raisin throws things off a little bit,

01:23:31 ◼   ► and then you've got everything,

01:23:33 ◼   ► and you've got egg everything.

01:23:35 ◼   ► Why is egg everything even on this list?

01:23:37 ◼   ► Why is it not next to egg?

01:23:39 ◼   ► Why is it under everything?

01:23:41 ◼   ► Why does cinnamon raisin come between it?

01:23:43 ◼   ► - I was gonna nitpick your inclusion

01:23:45 ◼   ► of egg everything as well, 'cause I don't think,

01:23:48 ◼   ► on a list that's this restrictive and this short,

01:23:50 ◼   ► I don't think egg everything belongs on that list.

01:23:52 ◼   ► - I know, but like, so here's the, I spent a long time,

01:23:55 ◼   ► I spent the whole vacation thinking about this, right?

01:23:57 ◼   ► Why is egg everything on the list and garlic is not?

01:24:00 ◼   ► It just, this is what it comes down to.

01:24:02 ◼   ► These are the canonical flavors.

01:24:03 ◼   ► Garlic does not make the cut.

01:24:05 ◼   ► Egg everything does.

01:24:06 ◼   ► Egg everything is the most borderline.

01:24:08 ◼   ► If I had to delete one, I would delete egg everything.

01:24:10 ◼   ► Right?

01:24:11 ◼   ► If I had to make the list one shorter.

01:24:12 ◼   ► Uh, but no, but this is it.

01:24:14 ◼   ► Onion, onion makes it.

01:24:16 ◼   ► Salt makes it.

01:24:17 ◼   ► Pumpernickel.

01:24:18 ◼   ► People don't talk about Pumpernickel, but it's there.

01:24:19 ◼   ► I talked about Pumpernickel.

01:24:20 ◼   ► You gotta talk about rye, which is not-

01:24:22 ◼   ► I said the rye family of flavors, which includes-

01:24:25 ◼   ► Yeah, you can't, like in your typical one, I'm trying to pick 17 different bagels for

01:24:28 ◼   ► your item number four.

01:24:30 ◼   ► Pumpernickel is a rye.

01:24:31 ◼   ► I know, but you have to pick one!

01:24:33 ◼   ► - It includes rye, marble, and pumpernickel

01:24:35 ◼   ► in the rye family of bagels.

01:24:38 ◼   ► Because most places don't have all three of those,

01:24:40 ◼   ► and so if I want that, I will pick whichever one

01:24:43 ◼   ► of those they have that looks the best.

01:24:45 ◼   ► - You also pick the one that you didn't know the name of,

01:24:47 ◼   ► which was like the one with oats on the outside

01:24:49 ◼   ► that's brown, yeah.

01:24:51 ◼   ► - What is that called, according to you,

01:24:52 ◼   ► even though it isn't on this list, apparently?

01:24:54 ◼   ► Unless it's called Egg Everything.

01:24:56 ◼   ► - The reason it's not on the list is it doesn't have a name.

01:24:57 ◼   ► Some people call it multi-grain,

01:24:59 ◼   ► some people call it wheat or grain,

01:25:02 ◼   ► It's not even, no, it does not make the list.

01:25:05 ◼   ► Does not make the list.

01:25:06 ◼   ► - I have a question.

01:25:08 ◼   ► What is it that makes bagels in New York and Montreal,

01:25:12 ◼   ► although Montreal is a loose definition of bagel,

01:25:14 ◼   ► what is it that makes both of those,

01:25:17 ◼   ► what is it that makes both of those bagels so good?

01:25:20 ◼   ► - I don't know.

01:25:26 ◼   ► There's been a lot of research about this.

01:25:28 ◼   ► Is it the water, is it the starter, is it the,

01:25:30 ◼   ► I think, I mean, obviously this is the basics like cooking technique.

01:25:33 ◼   ► Like if you don't boil your bagels, you're not making bagels and that, just forget it.

01:25:37 ◼   ► They're totally off the rails there.

01:25:38 ◼   ► But I mean, this is recipe, ingredients, and preparation and caring about what you make.

01:25:44 ◼   ► I mean, like think about Lenders Bagels.

01:25:46 ◼   ► Like Lenders Bagels are supermarket bagels made in techniques that have to scale up to

01:25:52 ◼   ► huge volumes.

01:25:53 ◼   ► Real bagels, they make them in the morning and you come and buy them.

01:25:55 ◼   ► And as Marco pointed out on the show, if you come in the afternoon, they're not as good.

01:25:58 ◼   ► And that's just the kind of product.

01:26:00 ◼   ► you're not going to ship it in a truck across the country frozen. It's not going to be the same

01:26:04 ◼   ► thing. I don't know why Montreal has a particular bagel culture, but it's like bread. Why is bread

01:26:08 ◼   ► good in some places? Why do you have bad supermarket bread and some bakeries have really

01:26:12 ◼   ► good bread? And the bakeries have really good bread. Where do you get that bread and when?

01:26:16 ◼   ► It's a time of day and they make it every day. And that's what it comes down to.

01:26:21 ◼   ► You're wrong. All right, here's the thing. The chat room is wrong. You're wrong. I'm really

01:26:25 ◼   ► disappointed in everyone. Though the origins of bagels are somewhat obscure, says the origin

01:26:29 ◼   ► of truth Wikipedia, it is known that they were widely consumed in the Eastern European

01:26:34 ◼   ► Jewish communities from the 17th century. The reason that New York bagels and Montreal

01:26:40 ◼   ► air quote bagels air quote are so good is because of the significant Jewish population

01:26:45 ◼   ► in both of those cities. Of the three of us, I think we can unequivocally decide which

01:26:51 ◼   ► one of us is the most Jewish of the three of us, and that is yours truly. And the fact that you two

01:26:56 ◼   ► are arguing about something that you are completely unqualified to discuss, I just think is hysterical.

01:27:01 ◼   ► False. You didn't grow up in New York, the New York metro area. You do nothing about bagels,

01:27:05 ◼   ► Jon Snow. No, nothing about them. It doesn't come as part of your genetics. You don't make bagels

01:27:10 ◼   ► for a living. And even if you did, you don't make them in the New York metro area. People who know

01:27:14 ◼   ► food know it from where they grow up with it. That's where the knowledge of the food comes from,

01:27:18 ◼   ► Not from any sort of, not in your DNA.

01:27:21 ◼   ► And never mind, like the heritage,

01:27:22 ◼   ► it's like me claiming to know stuff about Italian food.

01:27:24 ◼   ► I know nothing about Italian food.

01:27:25 ◼   ► I've never been to Italy.

01:27:26 ◼   ► I know Italian-American food,

01:27:28 ◼   ► 'cause I'm Italian-American,

01:27:29 ◼   ► and those immigrants came to where I grew up,

01:27:31 ◼   ► and they sold food there.

01:27:33 ◼   ► And I fully expect the New York metro area bagels

01:27:36 ◼   ► had nothing to do with whatever bagels

01:27:37 ◼   ► you're talking about in the 17th century from Europe.

01:27:39 ◼   ► Who knows what those were like?

01:27:40 ◼   ► All I know is what they're like in the New York metro area.

01:27:42 ◼   ► - John, you forget that I spent a large portion

01:27:46 ◼   ► of my childhood either in New York State

01:27:48 ◼   ► or in Connecticut, literally so close to New York,

01:27:50 ◼   ► I could walk and get there.

01:27:52 ◼   ► That's how close I was.

01:27:54 ◼   ► - Yeah, uh-huh, that's what people who are not

01:27:56 ◼   ► in the New York metro area say about it.

01:27:57 ◼   ► I was in Connecticut, that's like New York.

01:27:59 ◼   ► We have Frank Pepe's, it's just, no.

01:28:01 ◼   ► (laughs)

01:28:02 ◼   ► - So two things, number one, I think all of our

01:28:05 ◼   ► cultural backgrounds aside, I think this is one

01:28:07 ◼   ► of those things where you have to pull a GIF/George Lucas

01:28:11 ◼   ► and just say, you know what, even though academically

01:28:13 ◼   ► you should be right on this, you're not.

01:28:15 ◼   ► And secondly, only one of us still lives in the New York metro area.

01:28:19 ◼   ► Yeah, well, Marco, the only thing you can lord over us, Marco, is that you have access

01:28:23 ◼   ► to good bagels.

01:28:24 ◼   ► And believe me, I am sufficiently jealous of that.

01:28:27 ◼   ► Believe me.

01:28:29 ◼   ► And sometimes when we discuss, you know, like when you were talking about like, what if

01:28:32 ◼   ► Marco would ever move someplace other than New York?

01:28:35 ◼   ► And I would say, why would he do that?

01:28:36 ◼   ► He would be leaving behind pizza and bagels.

01:28:38 ◼   ► Why would he ever move?

01:28:39 ◼   ► I would hate you so much if you ever moved.

01:28:40 ◼   ► Because I'd be like, you're throwing it away.

01:28:42 ◼   ► You've got it right there.

01:28:43 ◼   ► You've got a house.

01:28:44 ◼   ► You've got a Tesla.

01:28:45 ◼   ► got a kid, you got bagels and pizza,

01:28:46 ◼   ► why would you ever go any, oh, self employment tax,

01:28:49 ◼   ► blah, blah, blah, now it's worth it for the bagels.

01:28:51 ◼   ► - Yeah, there's a reason I still tolerate

01:28:52 ◼   ► all of New York's BS, because I like a lot of the stuff here.

01:28:56 ◼   ► (laughing)

01:28:57 ◼   ► Believe me, New York has no shortage of BS and hostility

01:29:00 ◼   ► that encourages people to flee,

01:29:03 ◼   ► but those of us who are still here,

01:29:05 ◼   ► which is one of us, are here for good reasons.

01:29:10 ◼   ► Good, round, malted reasons.

01:29:14 ◼   ► - To make it so that no one who listens to this podcast

01:29:15 ◼   ► ever actually has to go to this blog post,

01:29:18 ◼   ► after the list it says, "Also, Bialy's."

01:29:20 ◼   ► (laughing)

01:29:21 ◼   ► - Yeah, which I have no problem including Bialy's,

01:29:23 ◼   ► although I'm not sure I would call the Bialy

01:29:26 ◼   ► a bagel flavor.

01:29:27 ◼   ► - It's not, it says, "Also,"

01:29:29 ◼   ► it's a separate list, "Also, Bialy's."

01:29:33 ◼   ► - Yeah, but the title of the entire post is

01:29:35 ◼   ► "canonical bagel flavors," and it includes lists,

01:29:37 ◼   ► and then-- - And then it says,

01:29:38 ◼   ► "These are the canonical bagel flavors,"

01:29:39 ◼   ► and it gives a list, and then it says, "Also, Bialy's."

01:29:41 ◼   ► It's trying to say, "Also, Bialy's exist."

01:29:43 ◼   ► - And they are good.

01:29:44 ◼   ► (laughing)

01:29:46 ◼   ► - Wow.

01:29:47 ◼   ► - Oh my God.

01:29:47 ◼   ► - And they are good, although I'm not so sure

01:29:49 ◼   ► about your supermarket Bialy's.

01:29:50 ◼   ► I feel like something's up here.

01:29:52 ◼   ► - You should, next time you're here,

01:29:53 ◼   ► I'll have you try one and you can tell me how it compares.

01:29:55 ◼   ► I have had Bialy's from like good bagel bakeries and stuff

01:29:58 ◼   ► and they're good too, but the supermarket ones

01:30:00 ◼   ► I think are just better than the ones I've had.

01:30:03 ◼   ► Now, granted, I haven't looked very hard

01:30:05 ◼   ► at like what's the best Bialy in Westchester or the city.

01:30:07 ◼   ► I haven't looked that hard, but the Bialy's I've had

01:30:10 ◼   ► at bagel places have not been substantially better

01:30:13 ◼   ► or better at all than the ones I get from my local grocery store. Now I know that's

01:30:18 ◼   ► probably I'm probably missing something big here because that shouldn't be the case.

01:30:21 ◼   ► Maybe they're buying them from a local bagel place. It could be the same. You have to know

01:30:24 ◼   ► where they're sourced from. It could be the same thing. It could be the bagel place that

01:30:27 ◼   ► goes into the supermarket and sells them. But anyway, I'm not a big fan of Bialy's,

01:30:33 ◼   ► but I always felt like when we would get bagels growing up, maybe one or two Bialy's turn

01:30:37 ◼   ► in. They could eat them. It's just in the mix.

01:30:42 ◼   ► Where do we go from here?

01:30:43 ◼   ► Where do we even go?

01:30:44 ◼   ► How can we, I mean, go to Margo's house and buy bagels, what we gotta do.

01:30:49 ◼   ► Oh, uh, what were we gonna talk about the Tesla?

01:30:53 ◼   ► I was in a Tesla earlier today.

01:30:55 ◼   ► Well, I just had a minor update, but it's not time sensitive, so you can, uh, let's

01:31:00 ◼   ► hear about your time in a Tesla.

01:31:02 ◼   ► Oh, it really was uneventful.

01:31:04 ◼   ► I went from work to my favorite local barbecue joint and then back, and I was a passenger,

01:31:10 ◼   ► but it was good.

01:31:11 ◼   ► Cool, all right.

01:31:12 ◼   ► Were you in the back seat or front seat?

01:31:14 ◼   ► Yeah, I was in the front seat.

01:31:16 ◼   ► I fiddled with the comically, absurdly, ridiculously

01:31:19 ◼   ► oversized touchscreen.

01:31:23 ◼   ► I learned that Tesla has its own Pandora-esque service.

01:31:28 ◼   ► Well, no, it's Slacker.

01:31:29 ◼   ► Oh, whatever it is.

01:31:31 ◼   ► I learned the web browser is being

01:31:33 ◼   ► used by enterprising developers to make

01:31:36 ◼   ► kind of sort of third party mega air quotes apps mega air quotes.

01:31:40 ◼   ► Oh, the browser's terrible.

01:31:42 ◼   ► Yeah, but I forget what underscore had on his, but it was something that like integrated

01:31:46 ◼   ► traffic and issue reporting from Waze with the onboard GPS because it just uses the HTML5

01:31:53 ◼   ► location API. And I don't recall exactly what the URL was. I don't recall exactly what it was called,

01:31:58 ◼   ► but it would show a map with the stuff that Waze reported. And Waze is very good about having up to

01:32:05 ◼   ► the second accurate reports on traffic conditions and obstructions and police officers and things of

01:32:10 ◼   ► of that nature. - That's interesting.

01:32:11 ◼   ► - So he had that up on his web browser.

01:32:13 ◼   ► Well, he didn't have the web browser up at all,

01:32:14 ◼   ► but when I was fiddling with it while he was driving,

01:32:17 ◼   ► that's the last thing he had had up on his web browser.

01:32:20 ◼   ► That was pretty neat.

01:32:21 ◼   ► I don't know, it's impressive.

01:32:23 ◼   ► - Actually, I tried when I first got it,

01:32:25 ◼   ► I actually tried to see like,

01:32:27 ◼   ► can I use that as an overcast interface?

01:32:30 ◼   ► And the basic answer is no, because there is no ability

01:32:35 ◼   ► for the browser to play audio.

01:32:38 ◼   ► I assume for safety or DOT regulations,

01:32:41 ◼   ► they've disabled audio and video elements

01:32:43 ◼   ► from playing in the built-in browser.

01:32:45 ◼   ► But video makes sense, audio I don't think does,

01:32:48 ◼   ► 'cause there's lots of other ways to play audio

01:32:50 ◼   ► from the internet in the Tesla, so I don't know.

01:32:53 ◼   ► - Fair enough, so what's your update?

01:32:55 ◼   ► - So I wanted to put somewhere,

01:32:59 ◼   ► and I was either gonna be a blog post or here,

01:33:00 ◼   ► and here is probably the better place for it,

01:33:02 ◼   ► just the sheer difference in how other people

01:33:07 ◼   ► people seem to be perceiving me having a Tesla,

01:33:11 ◼   ► like people in the world, my neighbors, things like that.

01:33:16 ◼   ► So, you know, coming from a loud, black, sporty BMW

01:33:21 ◼   ► to a silent, red, environmental future car,

01:33:27 ◼   ► I feel like the way, like, so I know, like,

01:33:30 ◼   ► I know immediately, like, my neighbors

01:33:33 ◼   ► and the people on the block hated hearing my loud car,

01:33:36 ◼   ► and they probably thought I was a jerk for driving it.

01:33:38 ◼   ► And even when I wasn't going fast,

01:33:39 ◼   ► it sounded like I was going fast,

01:33:41 ◼   ► and I would imagine that didn't win me any favors