ATP

00:00:00 ◼   ► Boy, I put my photos into Google Photos.

00:00:03 ◼   ► You know why I finally ended up doing it?

00:00:05 ◼   ► Because the thing I just tweeted about my controller, my PlayStation controller with

00:00:09 ◼   ► the worn out thing on the bottom, I was trying to find the old picture, like the original

00:00:13 ◼   ► one, because I wanted to do the tweet, like here's the new one, here's the old one, and

00:00:16 ◼   ► I could not find that picture.

00:00:17 ◼   ► I'm scrolling through my photos library, I just like, I could not find it.

00:00:21 ◼   ► I couldn't even narrow it down to like, I was trying to look at the release date of

00:00:24 ◼   ► Destiny but I didn't get it on the release date, I'm scrolling and I know it's like one

00:00:27 ◼   ► picture, I could not find it, so I'm like...

00:00:29 ◼   ► So to find one picture you upload your entire photo collection to Google Photos and that was easier?

00:00:33 ◼   ► Yes, because how else are you gonna find the one picture if I knew which photo to upload?

00:00:37 ◼   ► Like I have to upload the whole thing. I wanted to try it anyway. This just pushed me over the edge. That's amazing

00:00:41 ◼   ► So as is uploading literally 70,000 photos

00:00:44 ◼   ► I'm typing in searches like as you can search while it's uploading

00:00:48 ◼   ► Trying to think of searches that will find this so I type in controller. No, no matches PS4

00:00:54 ◼   ► No matches black plastic matches, but none of the ones I wanted then I was thinking maybe it's not in my photo library

00:01:01 ◼   ► Maybe it's on some other trapped in some iOS device

00:01:03 ◼   ► So I start putting things up that I think was actually trapped in my phone

00:01:05 ◼   ► So now I'm uploading from my phone like photos that it because again Tina has the library not me, right?

00:01:11 ◼   ► So it's her photo thing. So uploading from Google Photos

00:01:14 ◼   ► From her Mac is pushing those pictures up, but it's not pushing any of the pictures up from my phone

00:01:19 ◼   ► So now I'm trying to push up from my phone into the thing and I just type control into the search and you know

00:01:23 ◼   ► found two pictures of GameCube controllers and a picture of my brother getting a PlayStation

00:01:29 ◼   ► 2 in 2004.

00:01:30 ◼   ► Seriously, it's magic.

00:01:32 ◼   ► It is, but it still didn't find the damn picture.

00:01:34 ◼   ► I mean, I found it myself eventually, because I figured out that I had tweeted it, and I

00:01:37 ◼   ► found the tweet based on searching the tweet.

00:01:40 ◼   ► So all that, and you still didn't actually find the photo with three –

00:01:44 ◼   ► It found three controllers.

00:01:45 ◼   ► The problem is, I don't know if that picture has been pushed up – the whole time we've

00:01:48 ◼   ► been recording my phone has been in theory pushing photos up and I'm guessing

00:01:53 ◼   ► that's where it is in these 7,000 photos that are on my phone. But anyway it did

00:01:57 ◼   ► find pictures of controllers so I have some hope now. We should do a little bit

00:02:02 ◼   ► of John's favorite thing in the world we should do some follow-up and there's some

00:02:05 ◼   ► very very sad follow-up there's not going to be a 5k monitor at WWDC. Well we

00:02:10 ◼   ► don't know but that's the rumor. Was there was there ever going to be the 5k

00:02:14 ◼   ► monitor? Was that really a strong thing?

00:02:16 ◼   ► We did a whole show last week all about all the hardware that we were excited for, and

00:02:22 ◼   ► then like immediately after that all the rumor sites said, you know, you're looking for five

00:02:26 ◼   ► game monitors with GPUs? Forget it. You're looking for new MacBooks? Those might not

00:02:29 ◼   ► even be there. No hardware, it's going to be all about software, don't get your hopes

00:02:33 ◼   ► up. And of course no one even bothered to refute the idea that they're going to make

00:02:35 ◼   ► a new Mac Pro because no one cares about that. Enough to even put on the rumor site, yeah,

00:02:38 ◼   ► there's not going to be any of those either. So yesterday I was all hopeful, and now the

00:02:43 ◼   ► prevalent rumors are all the hardware you hope for

00:02:46 ◼   ► may still come, but not at WWDC.

00:02:49 ◼   ► - That's not a huge surprise.

00:02:50 ◼   ► I mean, the no MacBook Pros is a little bit surprising,

00:02:53 ◼   ► but I would expect the display to come

00:02:55 ◼   ► with the next update to the Mac Pro.

00:02:57 ◼   ► And whether that's the same time as the MacBook Pro or not,

00:03:00 ◼   ► who knows, but it does seem like it's probably going to be

00:03:03 ◼   ► a high-end, mostly pro product for a while.

00:03:07 ◼   ► I don't think a lot of people who are like mid-range buyers

00:03:11 ◼   ► who have like a 13-inch MacBook Pro

00:03:13 ◼   ► are going to be buying the very first Apple 5K display.

00:03:15 ◼   ► It's probably going to be expensive.

00:03:17 ◼   ► It's probably going to be this big special thing

00:03:20 ◼   ► that's gonna require the brand new computers.

00:03:22 ◼   ► I wouldn't expect this to be

00:03:24 ◼   ► just an average consumer release.

00:03:25 ◼   ► I would expect this to wait for the Mac Pro,

00:03:27 ◼   ► but I could be wrong.

00:03:28 ◼   ► - See, I would think the opposite.

00:03:29 ◼   ► I would think that the whole purpose of this monitor

00:03:32 ◼   ► is so people who buy MacBook Pros

00:03:34 ◼   ► can have a really big screen

00:03:35 ◼   ► when they sit down at their desks,

00:03:37 ◼   ► and that the whole point of this entire product is

00:03:39 ◼   ► that's why it's got a GPU inside.

00:03:40 ◼   ► So even our lowly MacBooks that don't actually have a GPU that can drive it, no problem.

00:03:45 ◼   ► The GPU that's inside the screen is enough to drive it.

00:03:47 ◼   ► You're not going to play games on it or anything, but it's just, it's enough to actually drive

00:03:51 ◼   ► that many pixels.

00:03:52 ◼   ► So now look at all these great laptops.

00:03:53 ◼   ► They're great laptops on the go.

00:03:55 ◼   ► And sit down at your desk and you have essentially a 5K iMac style screen in front of you.

00:04:00 ◼   ► And they won't even mention the Mac Pro because who the hell cares about the Mac Pro?

00:04:03 ◼   ► >> If this was like a regular update, like when they went from 27 inch LED to 27 inch

00:04:09 ◼   ► Thunderbolt display. That was like, okay, we already know how to make screens this size.

00:04:12 ◼   ► We've been making them for a long, for a few years at that point, and before that we made

00:04:16 ◼   ► 30-inch screens for even more years. It was like, this was no big deal. It's like, mostly

00:04:20 ◼   ► existing technology put together in a new way. In this case, this is a 5K screen. This

00:04:24 ◼   ► is still a very high-end product. There still are very few 5K screens in the market. So

00:04:28 ◼   ► you got to figure out, this is going to be expensive. It's probably not going to be $1,000.

00:04:32 ◼   ► It's probably going to be a little more. And even if it was $1,000, that's still, compared

00:04:37 ◼   ► to other monitors that people would have

00:04:39 ◼   ► to put it on desk, but that's still

00:04:41 ◼   ► a pretty expensive monitor.

00:04:42 ◼   ► So I would expect this to be a high-end thing at first.

00:04:47 ◼   ► And then maybe in a few years, when they update it next

00:04:49 ◼   ► to add whatever new screen construction technique

00:04:53 ◼   ► they've developed by then, then it'll be more consumer-y.

00:04:55 ◼   ► But I wouldn't expect version one to be.

00:04:58 ◼   ► - Yeah, I agree with that.

00:05:00 ◼   ► However, I do think that there is some

00:05:02 ◼   ► very, very big demand for this.

00:05:04 ◼   ► Say, for example, you are an iOS developer and say, just for the sake of discussion,

00:05:10 ◼   ► you have an actual job and you go to an office and that office issues you a 15-inch MacBook

00:05:17 ◼   ► Pro, but they issue you two Lenovo displays that are of unremarkable resolution.

00:05:24 ◼   ► And so every time you're running the iOS simulator, you're running it at like half size, even

00:05:30 ◼   ► for like an iPhone 6 simulator.

00:05:33 ◼   ► So that can cause problems such as you're doing something with a UITableView and you

00:05:39 ◼   ► don't want it to look like a UITableView, you don't want any separators between all

00:05:43 ◼   ► the UITableView cells, and when you're just looking at the simulator stationary, the divider

00:05:50 ◼   ► lines, the separator lines between each cell disappear because it's at half zoom.

00:05:55 ◼   ► And then suddenly you go and you start playing around with your UITableView and suddenly

00:05:59 ◼   ► these magical lines appear from nothingness and it's very frickin' annoying because you

00:06:04 ◼   ► wish you had noticed it in the first place.

00:06:07 ◼   ► Not a very big deal, but still annoying.

00:06:09 ◼   ► And then you come home to your beautiful 5K display and think to yourself, "Wow, wouldn't

00:06:13 ◼   ► it be nice to have something like this at work so I didn't have to run the simulator

00:06:16 ◼   ► at half height?"

00:06:17 ◼   ► I mean, just hypothetically anyway.

00:06:19 ◼   ► I would kill for a Thunderbolt Retina display.

00:06:23 ◼   ► I would kill both of you for a Thunderbolt Retina display at work.

00:06:27 ◼   ► - We are honored.

00:06:28 ◼   ► - Yeah, I know you are.

00:06:30 ◼   ► I don't think work would pay for it

00:06:32 ◼   ► because I agree with you.

00:06:33 ◼   ► It'll probably be very expensive,

00:06:35 ◼   ► but man, would that be awesome.

00:06:38 ◼   ► It's all right though.

00:06:39 ◼   ► Oh, and before the entire internet writes me,

00:06:41 ◼   ► I have the two displays and I have a standing desk,

00:06:46 ◼   ► so I run my MacBook Pro in clamshell mode.

00:06:49 ◼   ► Yes, I know you don't think that's a good idea.

00:06:51 ◼   ► Yes, I'm aware that there's potential heat problems.

00:06:54 ◼   ► Yes, I know the simulator would be able to run full height.

00:06:57 ◼   ► If I did use the onboard display,

00:06:59 ◼   ► I understand all those things.

00:07:00 ◼   ► I am my own man and I do what I wanna do.

00:07:03 ◼   ► All right, which one of you decided

00:07:05 ◼   ► you wanted to talk about the iPhone SE?

00:07:06 ◼   ► - You know, it's all like me to add follow up to the show.

00:07:10 ◼   ► - Yeah, it was because a lot of people sent us this

00:07:13 ◼   ► follow up, last week we talked about the upcoming iPhone

00:07:18 ◼   ► and how it might look very similar to the 6 and 6S

00:07:21 ◼   ► and if that was a big deal and one of the ending points

00:07:25 ◼   ► was like this is their third shot at the same form factor

00:07:27 ◼   ► and if they do a really good job,

00:07:28 ◼   ► like the second iterations of phones usually are really good

00:07:31 ◼   ► and a third one could be even better.

00:07:33 ◼   ► And we talked about all the reasons that might be.

00:07:34 ◼   ► And a lot of people said, hey, the iPhone SE

00:07:36 ◼   ► is basically the third shot at the same form factor,

00:07:38 ◼   ► albeit separated in time by, you know,

00:07:41 ◼   ► by quite a few other models in between,

00:07:43 ◼   ► but it really is the third shot

00:07:45 ◼   ► at that five style form factor.

00:07:46 ◼   ► Now, I don't think the SE changed that much about the case.

00:07:51 ◼   ► Like it's not like the 6 and 6S of being like less bendy

00:07:53 ◼   ► and less slippery to trying to do minute changes

00:07:57 ◼   ► you might not even notice,

00:07:58 ◼   ► but still improving on the 6.

00:08:01 ◼   ► Does the SE improve on the 5S case in any way

00:08:04 ◼   ► other than possibly being cheaper to manufacture

00:08:06 ◼   ► because they didn't have the shiny chamfered edge around it?

00:08:11 ◼   ► - Oh gosh, yeah, I don't remember.

00:08:13 ◼   ► - I think that's the only thing I can think of

00:08:15 ◼   ► and I guess different colors.

00:08:16 ◼   ► But anyway, everyone loves the iPhone SE.

00:08:17 ◼   ► I don't know if it's because it's a third shot

00:08:19 ◼   ► of the same form factor,

00:08:20 ◼   ► but it is a precedent for doing a phone

00:08:24 ◼   ► that they had two models experience with

00:08:25 ◼   ► and doing it again and they can do it even better.

00:08:28 ◼   ► - All right, and yet another instance

00:08:32 ◼   ► of lowercase M, capital O-S, Mac OS.

00:08:37 ◼   ► - That's what it's called.

00:08:38 ◼   ► - Yeah, that's exactly how you pronounce it.

00:08:39 ◼   ► - Lowercase M-ack, mm-ack OS.

00:08:42 ◼   ► - Yeah, that's how you pronounce it, kids.

00:08:44 ◼   ► It had been seen in the wild,

00:08:45 ◼   ► but apparently has been killed and brought back to the farm.

00:08:50 ◼   ► - Well, I think I'd seen it before with a capital M

00:08:54 ◼   ► in some like Apple thing that just looked like

00:08:57 ◼   ► they forgot the space or not.

00:08:58 ◼   ► It doesn't even make sense that they forgot.

00:08:59 ◼   ► But anyway, it has been seen before an Apple stuff

00:09:01 ◼   ► with a capital M and I think quickly removed.

00:09:04 ◼   ► As we're recording this right now,

00:09:05 ◼   ► where you click on the URL that we're pasting

00:09:07 ◼   ► to the chat room, you would see an official Apple page

00:09:10 ◼   ► that lists--

00:09:11 ◼   ► - You will not, it's already been changed.

00:09:14 ◼   ► I checked it like five minutes before the show started.

00:09:17 ◼   ► Oh well.

00:09:18 ◼   ► - Is there a spy in our document?

00:09:20 ◼   ► - No, this is a nine to five Mac.

00:09:23 ◼   ► It was tweeted all over the place.

00:09:24 ◼   ► This is not a secret URL that we just figured out.

00:09:26 ◼   ► Like I guess, yeah, they're on top of it.

00:09:28 ◼   ► I purposely checked just before we connected

00:09:30 ◼   ► the Skype call.

00:09:31 ◼   ► I wonder if they've changed it.

00:09:32 ◼   ► Like, nope, still there.

00:09:33 ◼   ► And I copied and pasted it right out of that document

00:09:35 ◼   ► into the notes mere moments ago.

00:09:36 ◼   ► But apparently the little elves are really fast.

00:09:39 ◼   ► Anyway, that's probably a fairly telling slip-up.

00:09:44 ◼   ► Because when you have the list of OS's all in order

00:09:46 ◼   ► like that, you know, iOS, Mac OS, TV OS, and watch OS,

00:09:50 ◼   ► they all look like the same when you write them like that.

00:09:51 ◼   ► And I don't know, if it turns out that they don't rename it

00:09:54 ◼   ► like this, this will be a weird series of slip-ups.

00:09:57 ◼   ► - Yeah, I think at this point it's over.

00:10:00 ◼   ► That's the name, period.

00:10:02 ◼   ► If you don't like it, sorry.

00:10:03 ◼   ► I really hated the name MacBook when, like,

00:10:05 ◼   ► the very first MacBook and MacBook Pro,

00:10:07 ◼   ► I really hated the name MacBook.

00:10:09 ◼   ► The PowerBook was such a better name.

00:10:11 ◼   ► - Still is a better name.

00:10:12 ◼   ► And MacBook still is a terrible name.

00:10:14 ◼   ► - I agree.

00:10:15 ◼   ► But I got used to it and now I don't care.

00:10:17 ◼   ► So that's just gonna happen.

00:10:18 ◼   ► If you hate lowercase Mac OS, okay.

00:10:21 ◼   ► It's gonna suck for a little while

00:10:23 ◼   ► and then you're gonna move on and life will go on.

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00:11:36 ◼   ► So I'm happy to report that Apple apparently knew that I had not spent the time to figure

00:11:47 ◼   ► out my WWDC predictions yet, and has decided to drop some very interesting news and thus

00:11:55 ◼   ► take away most of the time that we're going to be able to talk about DubDub predictions,

00:11:59 ◼   ► and instead we'll just have to talk about some App Store changes.

00:12:03 ◼   ► So thank you people at Apple for timing it appropriately because I haven't thought

00:12:07 ◼   ► about my dub-dub predictions yet and you can hear me fumble about it in probably about

00:12:10 ◼   ► an hour and a half.

00:12:12 ◼   ► But then Marco had to go and ruin it by having an entire podcast about this earlier today,

00:12:16 ◼   ► so he's all got all his thoughts out of his system already about this.

00:12:19 ◼   ► Oh yeah, because all my thoughts in this totally fit in 30 minutes.

00:12:22 ◼   ► Well, that's your own stupid fault for having a short podcast.

00:12:24 ◼   ► Well, I saved minutes 31 through 90 for you guys.

00:12:28 ◼   ► Oh, okay.

00:12:29 ◼   ► All right.

00:12:30 ◼   ► Delightful.

00:12:31 ◼   ► about is Phil Schiller went to, I think it was The Verge

00:12:35 ◼   ► that broke the news, is that correct?

00:12:36 ◼   ► - It was a whole bunch of sites actually.

00:12:37 ◼   ► - I saw it on the loop first actually.

00:12:39 ◼   ► - Yeah. - Oh okay.

00:12:40 ◼   ► - In my Twitter feed, which is now the substitute RSS,

00:12:42 ◼   ► the loop is the first one that tweeted about it.

00:12:44 ◼   ► Then I think I saw The Verge next

00:12:45 ◼   ► or then maybe Gruber after that.

00:12:47 ◼   ► - Yeah, Loop, Verge, Gruber, Telegraph had one.

00:12:50 ◼   ► I think that was it.

00:12:51 ◼   ► That was all the ones I saw.

00:12:53 ◼   ► - Although it's interesting,

00:12:55 ◼   ► who got this story and who didn't?

00:12:57 ◼   ► I don't know how they made those decisions,

00:12:58 ◼   ► but you could probably read something

00:13:00 ◼   ► into the favorability of various outlets

00:13:02 ◼   ► based on who got this.

00:13:04 ◼   ► - Yeah, so basically the story is

00:13:07 ◼   ► that there are some substantial changes

00:13:09 ◼   ► to the App Store that are happening now.

00:13:11 ◼   ► So the first one I think is a gimme.

00:13:14 ◼   ► The first one is these really suspiciously fast

00:13:17 ◼   ► app review times that we've seen the last few weeks.

00:13:20 ◼   ► This is not just a fluke, it is not an accident,

00:13:22 ◼   ► and it is apparently not temporary.

00:13:24 ◼   ► Apple has officially acknowledged

00:13:26 ◼   ► that these things are real, that yes, indeed,

00:13:28 ◼   ► The app review is much faster.

00:13:30 ◼   ► They have made some changes to allow it to be faster

00:13:34 ◼   ► and to probably stay faster, and that is really good,

00:13:37 ◼   ► 'cause before it was like, well, this could be an accident

00:13:39 ◼   ► that it just happens to be really fast,

00:13:41 ◼   ► but if they don't mention it ever,

00:13:44 ◼   ► then it could probably go back at any time,

00:13:45 ◼   ► but now that they've mentioned it in public,

00:13:47 ◼   ► they've bragged about how good this is,

00:13:49 ◼   ► it is way more likely, I think, to stay this way,

00:13:53 ◼   ► or for this to be the new target standard

00:13:55 ◼   ► rather than just a fluke.

00:13:58 ◼   ► I wonder if it'll get a WWDC slide now, maybe like they've,

00:14:01 ◼   ► and by the way, before we even continue with these things,

00:14:03 ◼   ► the very fact that everything we're gonna talk about

00:14:05 ◼   ► in these App Store changes is being announced now,

00:14:08 ◼   ► like days before WWDC, but presumably, you know,

00:14:12 ◼   ► not saving for WWDC, although there's a lot of speculation

00:14:15 ◼   ► about why that might be the, of course, the party line is,

00:14:17 ◼   ► "We have so much good stuff to tell you about at WWDC,

00:14:19 ◼   ► "this just wouldn't fit."

00:14:20 ◼   ► So here, a couple days early, here's this news,

00:14:23 ◼   ► and the more pessimistic take is there is enough

00:14:26 ◼   ► in this announcement to cause discussion, consternation,

00:14:30 ◼   ► and worry among developers,

00:14:32 ◼   ► in addition to excitement or whatever,

00:14:34 ◼   ► that if this was in the keynote,

00:14:35 ◼   ► this is all people will be talking about afterwards,

00:14:37 ◼   ► and Apple wants people to come out of the keynote

00:14:40 ◼   ► not talking about App Store pricing,

00:14:42 ◼   ► but instead talking about insert thing

00:14:44 ◼   ► that they're going to announce.

00:14:46 ◼   ► - Yeah, I mean, I think there's a few different takes

00:14:50 ◼   ► on this that are plausible.

00:14:52 ◼   ► Certainly, yeah, the pessimistic take of,

00:14:54 ◼   ► "Well, developers are gonna hate these changes."

00:14:56 ◼   ► I don't think that was it, honestly,

00:14:58 ◼   ► because I think most of these changes are good.

00:15:00 ◼   ► - Well, not hate them,

00:15:01 ◼   ► but that they will be talking about them,

00:15:03 ◼   ► they'll be top of mind for developers.

00:15:04 ◼   ► It goes towards WWEC being,

00:15:07 ◼   ► "Yeah, it's a developers' conference,

00:15:08 ◼   ► "but money's key notice for the public."

00:15:10 ◼   ► And they didn't want developer-oriented news

00:15:14 ◼   ► dominating their let's talk to the public one time a year

00:15:17 ◼   ► that's not a special event thing.

00:15:19 ◼   ► - Right, well, so that's the thing, too.

00:15:20 ◼   ► I think we have to realize,

00:15:22 ◼   ► yeah, there are 5,000 developers who watch that keynote

00:15:26 ◼   ► in that room, and then there's another, you know,

00:15:29 ◼   ► another handful of thousands of developers, who knows,

00:15:33 ◼   ► probably another like 10 to 50,000 developers

00:15:36 ◼   ► who are watching that keynote live streamed

00:15:38 ◼   ► to various places.

00:15:40 ◼   ► And then there's also like thousands and thousands

00:15:42 ◼   ► and thousands of people who just watch the keynote

00:15:44 ◼   ► 'cause they're Apple fans or they're Apple customers

00:15:47 ◼   ► or they're press or whatever.

00:15:48 ◼   ► And then whatever is announced in the keynote,

00:15:50 ◼   ► that gets reported on mainstream news,

00:15:52 ◼   ► it gets reported all over the web,

00:15:54 ◼   ► it gets reported on TV, on like CNN and stuff.

00:15:56 ◼   ► This is a mass media event that happens to be

00:16:00 ◼   ► the beginning of a developer conference.

00:16:02 ◼   ► So the focus of whatever is in that main keynote

00:16:05 ◼   ► is going to be more mainstream

00:16:08 ◼   ► than just talking to developers.

00:16:10 ◼   ► That's why, honestly, it was kind of surprising

00:16:14 ◼   ► that Swift was unveiled in the keynote

00:16:16 ◼   ► 'cause it was so technical,

00:16:18 ◼   ► even though it was barely unveiled, but it was.

00:16:20 ◼   ► But generally, you don't see source code

00:16:23 ◼   ► in the main keynote.

00:16:26 ◼   ► You don't hear about a lot of low-level changes.

00:16:28 ◼   ► You'll hear about some, maybe,

00:16:30 ◼   ► or it'll be one of those word cloud slides

00:16:33 ◼   ► where there's a whole bunch of little words on the slide

00:16:35 ◼   ► and everyone rushes to take a picture of it

00:16:37 ◼   ► 'cause like, "Oh, wait, there's a whole bunch

00:16:38 ◼   ► "of stuff buried in there,"

00:16:39 ◼   ► and then they just kinda move on.

00:16:40 ◼   ► I tell you in more detail later,

00:16:41 ◼   ► after the public has gone away

00:16:42 ◼   ► and they tell you in a session.

00:16:44 ◼   ► So that keynote is mostly a consumer event.

00:16:50 ◼   ► it is barely a developer keynote.

00:16:53 ◼   ► And so it could be that this stuff

00:16:55 ◼   ► is really mostly only relevant to developers,

00:16:57 ◼   ► and so the stuff that they are leaving in the keynote

00:17:01 ◼   ► is just more, you know, this is Apple's summer announcements

00:17:04 ◼   ► and getting people ready for the big stuff

00:17:07 ◼   ► that's happening in the fall.

00:17:08 ◼   ► So, you know, just like how last year

00:17:10 ◼   ► they spent so much time on Apple Music,

00:17:13 ◼   ► and developers could do nothing with that.

00:17:16 ◼   ► - That turns out neither could the public.

00:17:18 ◼   ► (laughing)

00:17:20 ◼   ► - Right, but like, you know, it's like,

00:17:21 ◼   ► this is mostly a consumer event,

00:17:23 ◼   ► and so, you know, having some developer stuff

00:17:26 ◼   ► that's of, you know, possibly large importance

00:17:29 ◼   ► happen outside that main keynote is totally understandable.

00:17:33 ◼   ► - Yeah, so anyway, the App Store review times

00:17:34 ◼   ► may or may not get a slide.

00:17:35 ◼   ► If they did, I mean, you can do it with the one brief slide,

00:17:37 ◼   ► as we talked about earlier in the week.

00:17:39 ◼   ► Review times are down, isn't Phil Schiller great?

00:17:41 ◼   ► Everybody loves it, and the answer to the question

00:17:44 ◼   ► of, we discussed this a couple weeks ago,

00:17:46 ◼   ► if things are actually faster, how might they do this?

00:17:49 ◼   ► We talked about many possibilities that they could change the rules that govern how they

00:17:53 ◼   ► do things, so they can have better automated tools.

00:17:56 ◼   ► And there were some rumors of management changes.

00:17:57 ◼   ► I think there was a couple stories about that on the web earlier.

00:18:01 ◼   ► The answer from Phil Schiller when he did his media tour was basically everything we

00:18:05 ◼   ► said contributed to the thing.

00:18:08 ◼   ► It's everything.

00:18:09 ◼   ► Tool improvements internal to Apple, staffing changes, and policy changes that I think Gruber

00:18:12 ◼   ► listed.

00:18:13 ◼   ► So there is no one thing that is making this faster.

00:18:16 ◼   ► It's a series of changes which sum up to the stats that they're touting now, which is 50%

00:18:21 ◼   ► of apps are reviewed within 24 hours and 90% within 48 hours.

00:18:25 ◼   ► Yeah, this is awesome.

00:18:27 ◼   ► It's just so, so awesome.

00:18:29 ◼   ► Yeah, I've been stunned by this.

00:18:32 ◼   ► And I think it's a good thing that the tool improvements and just trusting their tools

00:18:38 ◼   ► to suss out any like private API violations, any crashes, potentially things like that.

00:18:43 ◼   ► I mean, trusting your tools, that's a good thing.

00:18:45 ◼   ► I mean, this is why I write unit tests.

00:18:47 ◼   ► (clears throat)

00:18:49 ◼   ► - That makes one of us.

00:18:50 ◼   ► No, I mean, to me, this kinda just shows the potential of,

00:18:55 ◼   ► before Phil took over the app store,

00:18:59 ◼   ► I don't wanna throw anybody under the bus or anything,

00:19:03 ◼   ► but it sure seemed like it was not progressing at all,

00:19:07 ◼   ► and that basically nobody was working on progressing it.

00:19:12 ◼   ► And Phil took over not that long ago,

00:19:14 ◼   ► and a lot of stuff is changing,

00:19:16 ◼   ► and a lot of progress is being made for the better.

00:19:19 ◼   ► So I'm kind of excited.

00:19:21 ◼   ► If all this changed in such a short time

00:19:26 ◼   ► while there's been finally somebody

00:19:29 ◼   ► literally running the store,

00:19:30 ◼   ► what else is gonna change?

00:19:33 ◼   ► In the big picture,

00:19:36 ◼   ► even if some of these things don't work out

00:19:38 ◼   ► or don't do as well as they wanted or whatever,

00:19:41 ◼   ► or make things harder in certain ways

00:19:43 ◼   ► and easier in other ways.

00:19:44 ◼   ► Whatever happens with these changes that they're doing,

00:19:47 ◼   ► they're making changes.

00:19:49 ◼   ► That's amazing, because for like eight years,

00:19:51 ◼   ► they changed almost nothing.

00:19:53 ◼   ► So this is real progress, and this is a rapid

00:19:57 ◼   ► and dramatic change, almost all, if not all, for the better.

00:20:02 ◼   ► - You know, again, the pessimistic take is

00:20:06 ◼   ► this was a management change.

00:20:08 ◼   ► Like Phil's just taken over control

00:20:10 ◼   ► of what previously he didn't have control over,

00:20:12 ◼   ► and when you switch a new manager onto a new project and it's important and they want to

00:20:16 ◼   ► make a good showing, they want to come out of the gate and say, "Okay, you put me in

00:20:19 ◼   ► charge of this and in short order I did these things that made it better, isn't that great?"

00:20:25 ◼   ► That's a pressing need within a typical, you know, bozo corporation, which we assume Apple

00:20:30 ◼   ► isn't.

00:20:31 ◼   ► But anyway, that's one pessimistic take.

00:20:32 ◼   ► And the other one is, we were all excited when they finally turned their attention to

00:20:35 ◼   ► the Mac Pro that had been neglected for a long time and came out with this amazing radical

00:20:38 ◼   ► new computer that shows they really do care about the Mac Pro.

00:20:41 ◼   ► And surely this means that the Mac Pro is off to a new, brighter, healthier future involving

00:20:46 ◼   ► lots of updates and lots of future changes.

00:20:49 ◼   ► Not that I'm predicting this for the App Store, but if you wanted to be pessimistic about

00:20:52 ◼   ► it and, you know, it is possible that there's enough reasons why this might be a bunch of

00:20:58 ◼   ► big dramatic changes that had been a long time coming, sort of like pent-up demand,

00:21:02 ◼   ► and that they'll let this stew for a year.

00:21:04 ◼   ► Not because they don't care anymore, but even just like the idea that they're going to be

00:21:09 ◼   ► be sort of let's try a bunch of things and fail fast or whatever.

00:21:11 ◼   ► Like I think their appetite for churn in the App Store rules has obviously increased, but

00:21:15 ◼   ► I don't think it's that great.

00:21:16 ◼   ► So I would expect this set of rules to possibly be tweaked and sussed out over the next year

00:21:21 ◼   ► and then maybe, you know, I think we'd all be happy if every year they revisited the

00:21:25 ◼   ► rules of the store and saw how they did for a year because you can't really change it

00:21:28 ◼   ► every week.

00:21:29 ◼   ► What are you going to change it in response to?

00:21:30 ◼   ► You don't have enough data to know whether it's a good idea or a bad idea.

00:21:32 ◼   ► So unlike perhaps the operating systems, a yearly pretty regularly scheduled update to

00:21:39 ◼   ► App Store rules is a reasonable idea.

00:21:41 ◼   ► And if you tried to update the rules radically more often than that, I think it would be

00:21:44 ◼   ► too much churn for developers.

00:21:46 ◼   ► No, I mean, even if they change something about the store every two years.

00:21:50 ◼   ► Yeah, we're just saying more than once every eight years.

00:21:52 ◼   ► Yeah, that would still be like radically more progressive than the way it's been all this

00:21:56 ◼   ► time.

00:21:57 ◼   ► Yeah, they did add bundles, right?

00:21:59 ◼   ► Sort of.

00:22:00 ◼   ► The other good thing, by the way, about all these changes we're going to go through is

00:22:04 ◼   ► they all apply to all stores, including the Mac App Store.

00:22:08 ◼   ► The TVOS store, yeah.

00:22:09 ◼   ► All right, so that's fast review time.

00:22:13 ◼   ► Good for Phil.

00:22:14 ◼   ► The next thing is subscription pricing available for all app types, which is by far the most

00:22:20 ◼   ► interesting and the most fraught with doubt announcement.

00:22:24 ◼   ► announcement. Of course, we're only like, you know, one day into this announcement, but the

00:22:28 ◼   ► the gist of it is that, you know, previously if you wanted to sell an app on the App Store that

00:22:33 ◼   ► did subscriptions, it had to be a subscription to some kind of media thing like television or like

00:22:38 ◼   ► a news service or audio or whatever, and now subscription pricing is open to all kinds of

00:22:44 ◼   ► apps. And so a quick, naive reading of that could be like, "Great! Then basically no more

00:22:50 ◼   ► restrictions. Previously I had to follow these special rules to be a subscription app. Now

00:22:53 ◼   ► anybody can just say, "I want my app to be a subscription app." And then you start reading

00:22:56 ◼   ► the rules and you're like, "Is that what they're saying? That any app can be a subscription app?

00:23:00 ◼   ► Or is it just say that any app can potentially be a subscription app?" And that is the current source

00:23:06 ◼   ► of doubt. Again, granted, one day in, I'm sure Apple will clarify, I'm sure things will get

00:23:10 ◼   ► worked out. But right now there's still some doubt about it. So it's hard to know entirely how to

00:23:15 ◼   ► feel about this because all the debates about, "Does this enable sustainable development?" Is

00:23:20 ◼   ► is this, you know, all the things that Marco I'm sure

00:23:22 ◼   ► talked about on his developer podcast,

00:23:24 ◼   ► whose name I can never remember, earlier today.

00:23:26 ◼   ► (laughing)

00:23:29 ◼   ► We don't know if this is going,

00:23:31 ◼   ► like should we indulge in speculation

00:23:34 ◼   ► about how this model might work,

00:23:35 ◼   ► particular kinds of apps,

00:23:37 ◼   ► before we even know whether Apple will allow it?

00:23:40 ◼   ► - Yes.

00:23:41 ◼   ► - We should indulge in that?

00:23:42 ◼   ► - Yes, yeah, because I mean look,

00:23:44 ◼   ► so if you just look at this as like

00:23:49 ◼   ► the most conservative reading of the rules

00:23:52 ◼   ► that they've put on that page,

00:23:54 ◼   ► then it's basically no change from what we already had,

00:23:58 ◼   ► policy-wise, I mean, there are some technical changes, but--

00:24:00 ◼   ► - Policy-wise, it would say you don't have to be a media app.

00:24:02 ◼   ► - Yeah, but you already didn't have to be a media app.

00:24:04 ◼   ► Like, Instapaper has that kind of subscription now,

00:24:07 ◼   ► Evernote has had it forever.

00:24:08 ◼   ► - Instapaper counts as a news thing, Evernote--

00:24:11 ◼   ► - No, it doesn't, 'cause it's not,

00:24:13 ◼   ► believe me, I looked into this back when,

00:24:15 ◼   ► when these first launched in the days of Newsstand,

00:24:18 ◼   ► when New Stand launched in I think 2011

00:24:20 ◼   ► or something like that.

00:24:21 ◼   ► It was only New Stand apps.

00:24:23 ◼   ► And then shortly afterwards,

00:24:25 ◼   ► I think maybe like a year afterwards,

00:24:27 ◼   ► it became available to any app

00:24:29 ◼   ► that was delivering periodic content of some kind.

00:24:32 ◼   ► But it had to be like issues or episodes.

00:24:36 ◼   ► It had to be like, you know--

00:24:37 ◼   ► - It couldn't be for like, I guess it couldn't be,

00:24:39 ◼   ► we don't know, but like if you were delivering video,

00:24:41 ◼   ► because HBO Go and everything has all that stuff outside of--

00:24:43 ◼   ► - It could have been, but it had to be like

00:24:45 ◼   ► episodic content, you know.

00:24:47 ◼   ► So it couldn't just be like you just have access

00:24:49 ◼   ► to this thing forever, but it could be like

00:24:50 ◼   ► you have access to this new thing every week

00:24:52 ◼   ► or month or whatever.

00:24:53 ◼   ► And then that then quickly got like semi-relaxed

00:24:58 ◼   ► into kind of where it stayed between then and now,

00:25:02 ◼   ► which is you could kind of do it

00:25:04 ◼   ► for any kind of recurring service,

00:25:06 ◼   ► but it was risky whether Apple would approve you or not,

00:25:10 ◼   ► because the definitions around it were fairly vague

00:25:12 ◼   ► as to what would qualify.

00:25:14 ◼   ► but it was clear that you had to have some kind

00:25:17 ◼   ► of recurring service, like some kind of backing web service

00:25:22 ◼   ► that had cloud storage or content available

00:25:27 ◼   ► on the service or something.

00:25:28 ◼   ► Most apps would not qualify for that.

00:25:32 ◼   ► - But all that language is still there though.

00:25:35 ◼   ► Everything you just said.

00:25:36 ◼   ► - That's the problem.

00:25:37 ◼   ► So I know Brent Simmons wrote a good post

00:25:40 ◼   ► basically asking clarification on this.

00:25:42 ◼   ► 'cause if you read Phil's comments in these interviews,

00:25:46 ◼   ► it sounds like now any app can do this no matter what.

00:25:49 ◼   ► But then if you look at that page,

00:25:50 ◼   ► it looks like that's not the case.

00:25:52 ◼   ► It looks like it's still the old rules of,

00:25:54 ◼   ► and it depends a lot on the interpretations

00:25:57 ◼   ► of some words on the page.

00:25:59 ◼   ► It says all apps are eligible to use this,

00:26:03 ◼   ► but it's appropriate for these types of roles.

00:26:07 ◼   ► So does that mean they would approve it

00:26:09 ◼   ► for inappropriate uses?

00:26:11 ◼   ► It depends on how these things are,

00:26:13 ◼   ► but I think what's going to happen is,

00:26:15 ◼   ► like most times when a new app review policy

00:26:18 ◼   ► gets put into place and the details

00:26:20 ◼   ► aren't quite worked out yet,

00:26:21 ◼   ► what's almost certain to happen is

00:26:23 ◼   ► either in the next few days they're going to

00:26:26 ◼   ► edit the language in that page to be more clear

00:26:28 ◼   ► and to firmly fall on one side or the other,

00:26:31 ◼   ► or unfortunately more likely,

00:26:34 ◼   ► they're gonna figure it out through

00:26:36 ◼   ► rejections later this fall.

00:26:37 ◼   ► And then we'll kinda solidify the policy.

00:26:39 ◼   ► And that would suck, I hope that's not how they do it.

00:26:41 ◼   ► But because Phil is the guy on top of app review

00:26:46 ◼   ► in the grand scheme of things,

00:26:49 ◼   ► and because his actual statements

00:26:52 ◼   ► really strongly say otherwise than that page,

00:26:55 ◼   ► I'm guessing this was probably a debated thing internally

00:26:58 ◼   ► until very recently, and they just kinda haven't worked out

00:27:02 ◼   ► like with the details yet, but I don't know.

00:27:04 ◼   ► - He's from marketing.

00:27:05 ◼   ► They always wanna give you the bright side of it.

00:27:08 ◼   ► That's what his whole role is.

00:27:09 ◼   ► Let me tell you what's great about this.

00:27:10 ◼   ► So even if it was exactly as you said, where maybe they'll reject it, maybe they won't,

00:27:15 ◼   ► he's not going to come and tell you that.

00:27:16 ◼   ► He's going to come and tell you it's open to everybody.

00:27:19 ◼   ► And then sort of allow the chips to fall away.

00:27:21 ◼   ► And I think they did update the copy on this page, because a lot of the language is about,

00:27:25 ◼   ► oh, you have to have like, you know, content or services or, you know, issues or whatever.

00:27:30 ◼   ► But then certain senses explicitly call out exactly what we're talking about.

00:27:34 ◼   ► Like this is, you know, like many freemium apps, successful auto-renewal subscription

00:27:37 ◼   ► App operate services that are continuously supported and often require sustained content

00:27:41 ◼   ► development."

00:27:42 ◼   ► That would be like you get a new level every week or something for a game.

00:27:46 ◼   ► Or "feature enhancements" to retain users.

00:27:49 ◼   ► Feature enhancements is exactly what we're talking about.

00:27:51 ◼   ► We're saying, "Hey, I want to add a new feature to my app that you use to take notes with.

00:27:56 ◼   ► There is no service.

00:27:57 ◼   ► There's not even a sync service, let's say.

00:27:59 ◼   ► There's just an application that runs on your phone.

00:28:01 ◼   ► I just want to add feature enhancements.

00:28:03 ◼   ► Can I charge you a subscription for that?"

00:28:05 ◼   ► right there in the language, but then every other thing on the page just leads you back

00:28:09 ◼   ► into the, "Oh, but of course you have to be providing a service or periodic content or

00:28:14 ◼   ► whatever."

00:28:15 ◼   ► So I don't think feature enhancements was there before.

00:28:17 ◼   ► There's no real equivalent to those pages.

00:28:18 ◼   ► I think these are all new pages, right?

00:28:20 ◼   ► But I don't think that language...

00:28:21 ◼   ► So someone put those words there, but then it's like the rest of the page doesn't agree

00:28:27 ◼   ► with it.

00:28:28 ◼   ► So you're right, it kind of looks like it might be conflicted, but again, the pessimistic

00:28:31 ◼   ► and pessimistic not because we're just mean people but founded on past history

00:28:35 ◼   ► like Eddie, the past has been very much like the rules are kind of vague it will

00:28:40 ◼   ► will nail it down through a series of heartbreaking rejections to a bunch of

00:28:43 ◼   ► small developers and then when you see their bodies fall below you like oh don't

00:28:47 ◼   ► do that what that guy did oh don't do that that's a waste of time they got

00:28:50 ◼   ► those guys waited six months in their app can't get on the store right you know

00:28:53 ◼   ► you know it's gonna be James Thompson again he gets he gets like the worst

00:28:56 ◼   ► luck with app review like you know it's gonna be like James Thompson can have a

00:29:01 ◼   ► a calculator app and you have a subscription and each month you get a new number. So you

00:29:06 ◼   ► have all the digits plus zero plus two operators. So his is like the stop making sense of calculator

00:29:13 ◼   ► apps. I see how it is. I think that if I were Apple, I would do pretty much exactly what

00:29:23 ◼   ► they did, which is I would write the verbiage, how do you pronounce the word? Verbiage. Verbiage,

00:29:30 ◼   ► I would write the text such that it leaves plenty of room for Apple to put the kibosh

00:29:37 ◼   ► on anything that they don't think is appropriate.

00:29:42 ◼   ► But that doesn't mean they'll actually wield that hammer.

00:29:46 ◼   ► It just means the hammer is available to them if they so desire.

00:29:49 ◼   ► Would you do that because you're Apple and you're trying to act like a big jerk?

00:29:53 ◼   ► Because that's what that's like.

00:29:54 ◼   ► Like, let's write it real vague to leave everyone in doubt so we retain all the power and can

00:29:58 ◼   ► to make arbitrary decisions in its future?

00:29:59 ◼   ► No, Apple, decide what you want now.

00:30:01 ◼   ► And if you can't decide to even be honest about that,

00:30:04 ◼   ► this is the worst.

00:30:05 ◼   ► Like, seriously, it's their job to come up with a policy.

00:30:09 ◼   ► Do you want people to be able to charge money

00:30:11 ◼   ► for an app that just adds new features every year

00:30:13 ◼   ► and has no backend services?

00:30:14 ◼   ► Decide that before you write the policy.

00:30:16 ◼   ► Don't write it because how are they going to,

00:30:19 ◼   ► whatever mechanism they're going to use

00:30:21 ◼   ► to make that decision later

00:30:22 ◼   ► when they're deciding to reject someone's app,

00:30:24 ◼   ► do that now as a thought experiment.

00:30:25 ◼   ► Don't wait until it comes.

00:30:26 ◼   ► It's so asinine to not,

00:30:27 ◼   ► I mean, if they're in a hurry and they have to put this out

00:30:29 ◼   ► and they haven't decided, fine.

00:30:30 ◼   ► But I'm saying like, that is a general policy

00:30:32 ◼   ► to like retain, reserve the right to like be vague

00:30:36 ◼   ► and just let people send things in and then decide then.

00:30:38 ◼   ► Don't wait for that to happen with real apps.

00:30:40 ◼   ► Run a thought experiment and decide now.

00:30:42 ◼   ► They should be able to decide, I think, very clearly.

00:30:44 ◼   ► Is this a valid thing to do for just plain old apps

00:30:47 ◼   ► that add features that have no backend service

00:30:49 ◼   ► and no peer-edit content?

00:30:50 ◼   ► Yes or no?

00:30:51 ◼   ► Pick something now, write it down clearly.

00:30:53 ◼   ► I am not even a developer, but I'm super angered

00:30:56 ◼   ► their inability to communicate clearly on this topic.

00:30:59 ◼   ► And if it's just an error in the text and it's fixed in three days, then fine, you

00:31:02 ◼   ► know, go to an Apple, you know, I should give them a break, it's only been a day.

00:31:06 ◼   ► But I don't buy that whole, "This is what I would do too because it remains maximum

00:31:10 ◼   ► power for me."

00:31:11 ◼   ► Like, that's gross.

00:31:12 ◼   ► Right, and the big thing is, like, this, you know, in addition to, you know, hurting all

00:31:18 ◼   ► the existing developers who are going to try this and hurting, you know, new stuff, what

00:31:21 ◼   ► this is really going to hurt, if they can't clarify this or if they don't clarify this

00:31:25 ◼   ► or if it stays in the more restrictive interpretation

00:31:28 ◼   ► of these things, which is only apps with services

00:31:30 ◼   ► and content and stuff, then this won't apply

00:31:33 ◼   ► to things like pro-content editing

00:31:36 ◼   ► or pro-content creation apps.

00:31:37 ◼   ► And that seems like a perfect candidate

00:31:39 ◼   ► for subscription pricing in the App Store.

00:31:41 ◼   ► Something like, if you're gonna have a pro-image editor

00:31:44 ◼   ► or a pro-audio editor or pro-drawing apps,

00:31:48 ◼   ► like pro-apps usually don't have backing web services.

00:31:53 ◼   ► usually don't have a magazine built into them.

00:31:55 ◼   ► - You could have a backing DRM service,

00:31:58 ◼   ► like I was thinking Photoshop.

00:31:59 ◼   ► Photoshop doesn't have a backing service,

00:32:00 ◼   ► but it does just for DRM, but I guess you don't need that.

00:32:02 ◼   ► - Oh, it has all this Behance garbage nobody wants.

00:32:05 ◼   ► Pro apps are a perfect use for subscription pricing on iOS,

00:32:10 ◼   ► because it kind of solves free trials.

00:32:13 ◼   ► It completely, in my opinion, solves upgrades,

00:32:16 ◼   ► if you can get people to pay.

00:32:18 ◼   ► And the people who are most likely to pay

00:32:20 ◼   ► are people who use pro apps to get advanced functionality

00:32:24 ◼   ► on things like their iPad Pros that they're desperate

00:32:26 ◼   ► for amazing software on, it seems like this is the most

00:32:30 ◼   ► clear need for subscription pricing is like,

00:32:33 ◼   ► A, video apps on the Apple TV,

00:32:35 ◼   ► B, pro stuff on the iPad.

00:32:38 ◼   ► And if they don't clarify this rule,

00:32:41 ◼   ► I don't know, it would be royally stupid

00:32:43 ◼   ► for any pro app developers to start developing their pro app

00:32:46 ◼   ► or port their Pro app over to the iPad or the iPhone,

00:32:51 ◼   ► suppose you make an amazing music app for Pros

00:32:55 ◼   ► or Pro photo app and you bring it to iPad,

00:32:57 ◼   ► you want it to charge like 40 bucks a year or something,

00:33:00 ◼   ► and then, oh, you can't do it, reject it,

00:33:02 ◼   ► sorry, you don't have a web service.

00:33:04 ◼   ► That's horrible, and most smart business people

00:33:07 ◼   ► won't even start that development until this is clarified.

00:33:09 ◼   ► So it seems like this is a great way to incent or incentivize

00:33:15 ◼   ► thanks to Phil's quotes on these websites,

00:33:17 ◼   ► it looks like "incent" is actually a word?

00:33:19 ◼   ► - I thought the same thing.

00:33:20 ◼   ► I was like, "Wait, I thought that was incentivized."

00:33:22 ◼   ► Well, I guess not, I guess I'm wrong.

00:33:23 ◼   ► - Yeah, I looked it up.

00:33:24 ◼   ► It's in Apple's dictionary on Mac OS,

00:33:26 ◼   ► so I assume it's real.

00:33:28 ◼   ► - Excuse me, I think you're thinking of M. Akos.

00:33:30 ◼   ► - Yes. (laughs)

00:33:32 ◼   ► I'm thinking of OS X. (laughs)

00:33:35 ◼   ► - Oh, people are gonna hate us so much.

00:33:37 ◼   ► - Oh, boy, yeah, so anyway.

00:33:40 ◼   ► So anyway, this is a great incentive

00:33:43 ◼   ► for pro app development on iOS.

00:33:46 ◼   ► - Or would be if they were clear about it.

00:33:48 ◼   ► And to be clear, it's not as if this rule,

00:33:52 ◼   ► this new rule necessarily needs to be the thing

00:33:54 ◼   ► that solves the problem.

00:33:55 ◼   ► We've identified it as a potential problem.

00:33:56 ◼   ► It could be that these changes

00:33:57 ◼   ► are just not addressing that, which is fine too.

00:33:59 ◼   ► But if they think they're addressing it,

00:34:02 ◼   ► for all the reasons Margo said, they're not really,

00:34:04 ◼   ► because the reason pro apps are scared away

00:34:07 ◼   ► from the iPad Pro and to some degree these days

00:34:11 ◼   ► the Mac App Store to some degree. Yeah, well, all apps are, so you can't tell if it's just

00:34:15 ◼   ► because of the Pro Apps. But they can't be sure that there is a business model that will

00:34:21 ◼   ► support sustained development of a Pro application, because they're so expensive. Because the

00:34:28 ◼   ► barrier to entry of like, what does it take to make a real full-featured Pro application

00:34:32 ◼   ► out of the game, that takes a lot of money initially. You have to have a plan going forward.

00:34:35 ◼   ► You could try like, I think it might be fun to make a silly free-to-play game, you know,

00:34:41 ◼   ► or 99 cent thing, like you can try that

00:34:43 ◼   ► and it can be a throwaway thing

00:34:44 ◼   ► if you have the money to spare.

00:34:45 ◼   ► But if you're gonna embark on making a pro app,

00:34:48 ◼   ► you have to have a solid go-to-market strategy

00:34:50 ◼   ► where you understand how it's going to be sold,

00:34:52 ◼   ► how you're gonna get money,

00:34:53 ◼   ► how are you gonna fund development,

00:34:55 ◼   ► how are you gonna make the money back that you spent on it

00:34:56 ◼   ► and how are you going to continue to pay for it.

00:34:58 ◼   ► And that same uncertainty still exists

00:35:02 ◼   ► if these rules are still vague.

00:35:04 ◼   ► Like I said, this rule doesn't necessarily

00:35:05 ◼   ► have to make that possible,

00:35:06 ◼   ► but when I first heard,

00:35:08 ◼   ► oh, subscription pricing opened to all,

00:35:09 ◼   ► that's the first thing I thought of

00:35:10 ◼   ► finally there's a way to sustain, you know, basically iPad Pro applications.

00:35:16 ◼   ► Expensive to develop, full-featured applications that are important for

00:35:19 ◼   ► people to do their jobs that aren't just put on the App Store and then forgotten

00:35:22 ◼   ► about it and like you make your money back and then you move on to the next

00:35:25 ◼   ► thing. That's what this seemed like and again a lot of language and almost

00:35:28 ◼   ► everything Phil has said makes that clear but a lot of the other language

00:35:32 ◼   ► makes it not clear. So hopefully this will be clarified, you know, again we are

00:35:36 ◼   ► less than 24 hours after this announcement so maybe we're being too

00:35:39 ◼   ► harsh, but I just find it frustrating for the press tour to be leaning so heavily on

00:35:47 ◼   ► All Our Hopes and Dreams and then the actual text of all the web pages to be just making

00:35:51 ◼   ► everything as clear as mud again.

00:35:52 ◼   ► You know, maybe it's Freaky Friday, or I guess since it's Wednesday, Wacky Wednesday,

00:35:57 ◼   ► because Marco is super-duper enthusiastic and chipper about this, and I'm—I don't

00:36:03 ◼   ► know, man.

00:36:04 ◼   ► I don't know how I feel about this.

00:36:05 ◼   ► And I think the reason I'm hemming and hawing a little bit is because looking at this from

00:36:10 ◼   ► the perspective of a very cheap consumer who is happy to pay for apps for sure, but I don't

00:36:17 ◼   ► want every app that is even remotely decent to think of themselves as, "Oh, I certainly

00:36:25 ◼   ► am a professional app and I can go subscription and I can charge, you know, five or ten or

00:36:30 ◼   ► fifteen or twenty bucks a year because I'm worth it."

00:36:33 ◼   ► Where some apps, like Tweetbot, I freaking live in Tweetbot, in Overcast actually, I

00:36:37 ◼   ► spend a lot of time in Overcast.

00:36:39 ◼   ► I would pay $20 a year for those apps.

00:36:42 ◼   ► But there's a lot of apps that I worry their developers will think, "Oh, we are definitely

00:36:48 ◼   ► a pro app, we deserve a subscription pricing, blah blah blah," where I really don't think

00:36:53 ◼   ► that's the case.

00:36:54 ◼   ► I think it should be either a one-time fee or perhaps a one-time in-app purchase or something

00:36:57 ◼   ► along those lines.

00:36:59 ◼   ► And I don't know.

00:37:02 ◼   ► I'm hopeful that this does solve all of our problems like Marco seems to think that it

00:37:07 ◼   ► will, but I really don't want to end up paying a monthly fee or a yearly fee or what have

00:37:13 ◼   ► you for every damn app on my home screen.

00:37:15 ◼   ► I do think this will sort itself out though.

00:37:17 ◼   ► It'll sort itself out on the market.

00:37:18 ◼   ► It's not going to...

00:37:20 ◼   ► Developers are free to try whatever they want, but I don't think these rule changes, especially

00:37:25 ◼   ► in the short term will change what people are willing to pay for applications. All it

00:37:32 ◼   ► will do is make it so that the unrealized, sort of like what Mark would do with patronage,

00:37:38 ◼   ► there's untapped money, like money that people would be willing to give but have no way to

00:37:42 ◼   ► give to sustain the development of the apps they use regularly. Like that's what basically

00:37:45 ◼   ► patron is. Like if you care enough about overcast that you want to make sure that overcast continues

00:37:49 ◼   ► to exist, you know, subscribe, right? And like you just said, you listed two apps that you

00:37:53 ◼   ► all the time that you would gladly subscribe for without any kind of subscription and without

00:37:57 ◼   ► like a patronage thing that Marco's doing.

00:38:00 ◼   ► Once someone buys it from you, there's no more way for them to give you money unless

00:38:02 ◼   ► Marco does a thing where he makes an entirely new Overcast 2 and all the things we've talked

00:38:06 ◼   ► about in the past, right?

00:38:07 ◼   ► So this releases that money from the people who are willing to pay it, but it doesn't

00:38:11 ◼   ► make everyone else suddenly willing to pay way more for the software they have.

00:38:14 ◼   ► Now it could make developers be all like, "Oh, I want to try this.

00:38:18 ◼   ► It's the hot new thing."

00:38:19 ◼   ► But those developers will be sad because they'll find out what is the actual appetite that

00:38:23 ◼   ► to pay a monthly subscription for app,

00:38:25 ◼   ► they'll realize that many people installed their 99 cents

00:38:27 ◼   ► out and never looked at it again or whatever.

00:38:30 ◼   ► Like, I don't think you have too much to worry about

00:38:33 ◼   ► because I really don't think this will change

00:38:34 ◼   ► the hearts and minds of users in the short term especially.

00:38:37 ◼   ► And so if developers change their plans,

00:38:40 ◼   ► they will be punished by not getting a lot of sales

00:38:43 ◼   ► and people will stop using their app

00:38:44 ◼   ► and move to competitors and then they'll change back

00:38:46 ◼   ► and it'll sort of settle down again.

00:38:47 ◼   ► - Right, and that's the thing is that I agree with you.

00:38:50 ◼   ► The users aren't going to look at this

00:38:52 ◼   ► generally speaking, that differently. But what I'm worried about is that even a run-of-the-mill

00:38:58 ◼   ► developer with a good but not world-class app is going to think, "Oh, well, darn it,

00:39:04 ◼   ► my app is great and I think everyone is going to pay a subscription for me." And you're

00:39:08 ◼   ► right that this will kind of suss itself out over time, but I really hope that everyone

00:39:14 ◼   ► in the App Store doesn't immediately run to subscription pricing when really, at least

00:39:18 ◼   ► on my phone and my iPad anyway, there's a very small subset of apps that I think

00:39:23 ◼   ► really should consider subscription pricing that I think really should, that

00:39:30 ◼   ► should be worth it. And granted my handful, my five apps, are different than

00:39:35 ◼   ► your five apps, they're different from Marco's five apps, so maybe that'll suss

00:39:37 ◼   ► itself out that way as well. But I don't know, I just really hope that everyone on

00:39:43 ◼   ► the App Store doesn't immediately run to subscription pricing. I have heard from a

00:39:47 ◼   ► of people now saying, basically expressing

00:39:50 ◼   ► that same sentiment of, you know, I as a user

00:39:54 ◼   ► don't want everything on my phone to all of a sudden

00:39:57 ◼   ► be charging me like two dollars a month or whatever.

00:39:59 ◼   ► To some degree that's reasonable, to some degree

00:40:01 ◼   ► John is right that the market will sort this out.

00:40:05 ◼   ► And also to some degree I think this is an improvement

00:40:08 ◼   ► over the reality that we have now.

00:40:10 ◼   ► So right now, if you consider the example of say

00:40:13 ◼   ► Tweetbot like we've been mentioning, Tweetbot releases

00:40:15 ◼   ► a brand new version of the app,

00:40:17 ◼   ► and Tweetbot is a paid up front app,

00:40:19 ◼   ► and then about every, what, year or two,

00:40:22 ◼   ► they release a new version

00:40:24 ◼   ► that is a brand new standalone app for,

00:40:27 ◼   ► what is it, a few bucks, like five bucks,

00:40:28 ◼   ► or four bucks, whatever.

00:40:30 ◼   ► So basically, you're almost already paying

00:40:34 ◼   ► three or four dollars a year for Tweetbot.

00:40:36 ◼   ► If you move to subscription pricing,

00:40:39 ◼   ► there's not really much of a change,

00:40:41 ◼   ► except it's easier and better for everybody.

00:40:44 ◼   ► - Oh, psychological change.

00:40:46 ◼   ► You know they don't want to sign up for another eel

00:40:48 ◼   ► in Roderick on the Line Parliament.

00:40:49 ◼   ► - I know, I'll get there.

00:40:50 ◼   ► So, you know, and then the customers,

00:40:52 ◼   ► like you don't have to go through the stupid hoops

00:40:54 ◼   ► of like, we'll download the new app,

00:40:55 ◼   ► hopefully transfer all your accounts over,

00:40:57 ◼   ► delete the old app, transfer all your settings,

00:40:59 ◼   ► all this stupid stuff.

00:41:00 ◼   ► Like, you know, it avoids all that,

00:41:02 ◼   ► all the cumbersome complexity of like replacing

00:41:04 ◼   ► the paid app with its next paid app version.

00:41:06 ◼   ► The developers will make more money this way

00:41:10 ◼   ► because of the new 85/15 split that you get

00:41:13 ◼   ► in years two through infinity,

00:41:16 ◼   ► which is a whole other thing that's really cool

00:41:18 ◼   ► and most likely related to Apple TV negotiations,

00:41:21 ◼   ► but with video providers and possibly Amazon and stuff.

00:41:25 ◼   ► But anyway, the consumer side of this is,

00:41:28 ◼   ► everyone's saying, I don't want everything on my screen

00:41:30 ◼   ► to all of a sudden charge me X dollars a month.

00:41:33 ◼   ► If you instead think about it as X dollars a year,

00:41:36 ◼   ► which is probably going to be a more common price point,

00:41:39 ◼   ► 'cause you don't wanna,

00:41:40 ◼   ► ideally you don't wanna be bugging people every,

00:41:43 ◼   ► You don't want to be reminding people every month

00:41:45 ◼   ► that they could cancel your subscription if they wanted to.

00:41:47 ◼   ► Like, 'cause every time that email comes in from Apple

00:41:49 ◼   ► saying the following subscriptions are about to renew

00:41:52 ◼   ► like in a few days or whatever,

00:41:53 ◼   ► like that's like a prompt for people

00:41:55 ◼   ► to cancel your subscription.

00:41:56 ◼   ► So you don't really want to do that if you can help it.

00:41:58 ◼   ► Like if you can charge a few dollars a year

00:42:01 ◼   ► instead of a few dollars a month,

00:42:03 ◼   ► that is probably a better idea

00:42:05 ◼   ► as long as you can still make enough money that way.

00:42:07 ◼   ► And so if you think about like,

00:42:09 ◼   ► you know, from like a paid app perspective,

00:42:11 ◼   ► Like if you're paying five bucks or four bucks

00:42:16 ◼   ► or three bucks every year or 18 months,

00:42:20 ◼   ► whenever there's like a new standalone paid app version

00:42:22 ◼   ► of something that's upgraded that way,

00:42:24 ◼   ► versus if you have like a four dollar a year subscription,

00:42:28 ◼   ► it's not that different.

00:42:29 ◼   ► And it's actually way easier for you with the subscription.

00:42:32 ◼   ► So I think this is the kind of thing

00:42:33 ◼   ► where not every app will do it.

00:42:35 ◼   ► In fact, I would guess very few apps will do it.

00:42:37 ◼   ► For the same reason very few apps are paid upfront anymore.

00:42:40 ◼   ► most people won't pay for most apps.

00:42:43 ◼   ► That's not going to change.

00:42:44 ◼   ► Most apps are still gonna be free

00:42:46 ◼   ► with garbage inside of them to fund it somehow.

00:42:48 ◼   ► Most apps are still gonna be like,

00:42:50 ◼   ► you know, you don't really have to pay for really anything,

00:42:53 ◼   ► but you could pay if you want to.

00:42:55 ◼   ► All the big, you know, in-app purchase,

00:42:56 ◼   ► premium, you know, mind trick games

00:42:59 ◼   ► are still gonna make all the money in the app store.

00:43:01 ◼   ► All of those, like all the market forces around this

00:43:04 ◼   ► aren't really going to change that much

00:43:05 ◼   ► as far as I can guess.

00:43:07 ◼   ► What will change is apps that are already now

00:43:12 ◼   ► earning money through some way

00:43:14 ◼   ► that's a little bit clunkier,

00:43:15 ◼   ► now have a smoother, easier way to do it

00:43:17 ◼   ► where they will probably also make more in the process.

00:43:19 ◼   ► And it's easier for both them and for users.

00:43:22 ◼   ► So don't think about it as everything on your home screen

00:43:25 ◼   ► is gonna start charging you two hours a month.

00:43:26 ◼   ► Think about it as maybe two or three apps

00:43:29 ◼   ► that you really use are gonna charge you four bucks a year.

00:43:31 ◼   ► 'Cause that's more likely to be the outcome.

00:43:34 ◼   ► And if you think about it that way, it's pretty awesome.

00:43:37 ◼   ► Oh, I agree. I completely agree. I just hope that the people who are writing these apps,

00:43:42 ◼   ► that the developers writing these apps, have the self-awareness to realize whether or not

00:43:47 ◼   ► it's appropriate for them to move to the subscription pricing. And if they don't realize it, that's

00:43:53 ◼   ► why coming back around, I think some of this verbiage is written the way it is on the website

00:43:58 ◼   ► that gives Apple the leverage and ammunition with which—well, I guess they already have

00:44:03 ◼   ► the leverage, but the ammunition with which to say,

00:44:06 ◼   ► "No, this is not an appropriate use of a subscription."

00:44:09 ◼   ► - Again, the market will sort this out.

00:44:11 ◼   ► Developers will very, very quickly learn that pricing

00:44:16 ◼   ► well above what people are willing to pay for their app

00:44:18 ◼   ► is probably not going to work for them.

00:44:20 ◼   ► On the other hand, suppose you have an app

00:44:22 ◼   ► on your home screen, and they start charging

00:44:26 ◼   ► four bucks a month.

00:44:27 ◼   ► If they can make enough money doing it that way,

00:44:31 ◼   ► and you don't wanna pay, good for them.

00:44:34 ◼   ► And that's too bad for you.

00:44:36 ◼   ► You know, like, it's-- - Oh yeah, I agree.

00:44:38 ◼   ► - Like that, again, the market sorts this out.

00:44:41 ◼   ► You know, the developers who overpriced their apps,

00:44:43 ◼   ► passed what the market will bear, will adjust it.

00:44:46 ◼   ► And you as a consumer might have to pay more,

00:44:49 ◼   ► but I would argue that prices for software

00:44:52 ◼   ► have been artificially depressed for quite some time,

00:44:54 ◼   ► and kind of subsidized by a combination of hope

00:44:58 ◼   ► and VC money, I think that it's really good

00:45:01 ◼   ► to have this option.

00:45:03 ◼   ► And not every developer will use it.

00:45:05 ◼   ► Implementing these subscriptions is not that easy

00:45:09 ◼   ► and it's kind of a pain and it's not as easy

00:45:13 ◼   ► as putting a paid app up there.

00:45:14 ◼   ► You have to code in this in-app purchase

00:45:16 ◼   ► and have the back end to verify the receipts

00:45:18 ◼   ► and keep track of who's subscribed and everything.

00:45:20 ◼   ► So it's not simple to do this.

00:45:23 ◼   ► So not every app will do this,

00:45:24 ◼   ► even if Apple would approve them, which we don't know.

00:45:26 ◼   ► So I think this is going to be a much smaller deal

00:45:30 ◼   ► than you expect to like apps on a whole, like as a whole,

00:45:34 ◼   ► but it will make a really big difference

00:45:36 ◼   ► to the relatively low percentage of apps

00:45:39 ◼   ► that will actually end up using it.

00:45:41 ◼   ► - And one thing that developers who decide to go

00:45:42 ◼   ► subscription should factor in,

00:45:43 ◼   ► I'm sure they are all thinking about this already,

00:45:45 ◼   ► but like the psychological barrier

00:45:48 ◼   ► to signing up for a recurring payment,

00:45:50 ◼   ► even if the recurring payment is actually less

00:45:52 ◼   ► than what you've actually been paying,

00:45:53 ◼   ► like for example, say your Twitter client updates every year

00:45:55 ◼   ► and every year you buy a new copy for five bucks

00:45:57 ◼   ► and then they go to two dollars a year,

00:45:59 ◼   ► you're like, great, that's like half price.

00:46:01 ◼   ► And you're like, but what if at the end of this year,

00:46:04 ◼   ► I don't wanna upgrade?

00:46:05 ◼   ► Right, like there's always the whole,

00:46:07 ◼   ► if you're signing up for a bill and you're like,

00:46:09 ◼   ► well, how am I gonna keep track of the bills?

00:46:11 ◼   ► How am I gonna know when it renews?

00:46:12 ◼   ► And we know that Apple handles this pretty well,

00:46:14 ◼   ► in terms of sending you an email,

00:46:15 ◼   ► letting you know that your thing is up for renewal,

00:46:19 ◼   ► that they're gonna let you know if the price changes.

00:46:21 ◼   ► Apple's doing a good job in it,

00:46:22 ◼   ► but just the mere concept of signing up

00:46:25 ◼   ► for a recurring payment, even if it is less money now

00:46:28 ◼   ► and less money in the long term, bothers people.

00:46:31 ◼   ► And then the tech nerdy angle is,

00:46:33 ◼   ► and also what if I just wanna keep using the old version?

00:46:35 ◼   ► - Right, and honestly, as a developer, I say too bad.

00:46:40 ◼   ► So we'll take these things separately.

00:46:43 ◼   ► First of all, the subscription pricing, it's like yes,

00:46:45 ◼   ► but as I said before, people, sure,

00:46:48 ◼   ► that you want to pay between zero and one times,

00:46:52 ◼   ► and then have functionality that's updated forever.

00:46:56 ◼   ► And that's not sustainable, right?

00:46:58 ◼   ► - Well, no, but it's not even that you want it

00:46:59 ◼   ► to be updated forever, it's just that you,

00:47:01 ◼   ► like the idea that it's a thing that goes on

00:47:03 ◼   ► in the background that you have to be aware that it exists,

00:47:05 ◼   ► like the perhaps irrational in the case of Apple,

00:47:07 ◼   ► fear that you will forget this thing exists

00:47:09 ◼   ► and that you'll be in charge, you know,

00:47:10 ◼   ► $5 a year forever, kind of like an AOL dial-up subscription

00:47:14 ◼   ► that you just forgot to cancel in 1997.

00:47:17 ◼   ► Like that's what I'm talking about mostly.

00:47:19 ◼   ► Not the idea that you just wanna pay once

00:47:20 ◼   ► and get future spoons again.

00:47:21 ◼   ► Say you're gladly paying like,

00:47:24 ◼   ► say you're paying like $5 for a new Twitter client

00:47:26 ◼   ► every nine months and you're happy to do it

00:47:28 ◼   ► 'cause you think it's awesome every single time.

00:47:29 ◼   ► Then they ask you to pay $2 a year

00:47:31 ◼   ► and you're like, what, in perpetuity?

00:47:33 ◼   ► Like I'm signing up for something that,

00:47:36 ◼   ► it doesn't make sense, but especially again,

00:47:38 ◼   ► especially since Apple is so good about

00:47:39 ◼   ► not letting you forget these things are there.

00:47:41 ◼   ► It's not as if you're gonna not know

00:47:42 ◼   ► that you're being billed for this and everything.

00:47:44 ◼   ► In fact, I think, isn't it like if you don't do something,

00:47:46 ◼   ► it won't auto renew?

00:47:47 ◼   ► I don't know how good it is.

00:47:49 ◼   ► - No, no, that's only if you raise the price.

00:47:51 ◼   ► It will continue to bill you until you stop it.

00:47:54 ◼   ► And right now, the interface to stop these subscriptions

00:47:57 ◼   ► is awful and buried.

00:47:59 ◼   ► - I'm assuming this will all be better, yeah.

00:48:01 ◼   ► - But they've said, like part of this announcement

00:48:04 ◼   ► was that all of this is getting an overhaul.

00:48:05 ◼   ► So a lot of this depends on the implementation details.

00:48:09 ◼   ► It really does.

00:48:10 ◼   ► And so we will see that the previous renewing subscription

00:48:13 ◼   ► system was really rough.

00:48:15 ◼   ► There were a lot of things about it that were really

00:48:18 ◼   ► just badly done or inconvenient or consumer hostile

00:48:21 ◼   ► or developer hostile.

00:48:22 ◼   ► So a lot of this depends on the details.

00:48:24 ◼   ► So I'm just assuming with my predictions here,

00:48:27 ◼   ► I'm assuming that they have made it better enough

00:48:30 ◼   ► that we can overcome those problems.

00:48:33 ◼   ► I see what you're saying, I agree that it is a bigger

00:48:36 ◼   ► barrier but the reality is paying it all is a big barrier

00:48:40 ◼   ► and once you're over the hump of paying it all,

00:48:43 ◼   ► yes, people would choose to pay once if given the option,

00:48:46 ◼   ► "Oh, do I wanna pay $4 once or $4 every year?"

00:48:49 ◼   ► Of course you're gonna choose the first one,

00:48:50 ◼   ► but that is not sustainable.

00:48:53 ◼   ► And we've seen this over and over and over again.

00:48:56 ◼   ► Software these days, people expect continuous updates.

00:49:01 ◼   ► And the pay-once model, whether it's pay-once forever

00:49:05 ◼   ► or whether it's pay-once every 18 months,

00:49:07 ◼   ► then there's upgrades and separate apps.

00:49:09 ◼   ► Both of those are dysfunctional in a lot of ways.

00:49:12 ◼   ► - You're saying it's not feasible for developers, right?

00:49:14 ◼   ► But I'm thinking it from the perspective of the customer.

00:49:17 ◼   ► It's perfectly sustainable from the perspective of the customer

00:49:20 ◼   ► because the customer is like, I buy a Twitter client.

00:49:23 ◼   ► A year later, that developer goes out of business

00:49:25 ◼   ► because no one ever could find a way to give them more money.

00:49:28 ◼   ► And then I pick a new Twitter client.

00:49:29 ◼   ► A year goes by, and that new Twitter developer

00:49:32 ◼   ► releases a new version of his application.

00:49:34 ◼   ► I can use it or not.

00:49:36 ◼   ► Buying a new application every year

00:49:38 ◼   ► is the model that they've been going on.

00:49:40 ◼   ► If that new application is from the same developer, fine.

00:49:42 ◼   ► and suddenly that's sustainable from the developer's perspective.

00:49:45 ◼   ► If that new application is a different one, it's still the same money from the user's

00:49:49 ◼   ► perspective, right?

00:49:50 ◼   ► We're just looking at it from the developer's perspective, saying it's not sustainable,

00:49:53 ◼   ► therefore I'm going to go to subscriptions.

00:49:55 ◼   ► Subscriptions are not going to help you if your application is not attractive enough

00:49:58 ◼   ► to get people over the eel barrier.

00:50:00 ◼   ► Sure, however, the other model has a whole bunch of problems.

00:50:05 ◼   ► So, for instance, why are you not considering buying a Mac Pro today, John?

00:50:11 ◼   ► Mac Pros cost way more than apps.

00:50:12 ◼   ► I don't think this is applicable.

00:50:13 ◼   ► I'm short circuiting this analogy.

00:50:16 ◼   ► Believe me, it works exactly the same way.

00:50:19 ◼   ► Why are you not buying a Mac Pro right now?

00:50:21 ◼   ► Because it's crappy.

00:50:22 ◼   ► I don't want that one.

00:50:23 ◼   ► Because you know a new one's coming out soon.

00:50:26 ◼   ► No, I don't.

00:50:26 ◼   ► I don't know that at all.

00:50:27 ◼   ► Nobody knows that.

00:50:28 ◼   ► Well, the current one's three years old.

00:50:30 ◼   ► That's what I'm saying.

00:50:31 ◼   ► That's why I don't want to buy it,

00:50:32 ◼   ► because it's not a good product to buy.

00:50:34 ◼   ► You expect there's probably going

00:50:36 ◼   ► to be an update to it coming soon.

00:50:38 ◼   ► And if you buy it now, you won't get the updated one for free.

00:50:41 ◼   ► Yeah, no, I know all the anti-patterns.

00:50:43 ◼   ► I'm not saying this is not bad.

00:50:44 ◼   ► I'm just saying, this started with me giving advice to developers.

00:50:47 ◼   ► Hey, developer, you're thinking of changing your applications to

00:50:49 ◼   ► super-flipping pricing.

00:50:50 ◼   ► If you only think about how this will affect your revenue, you're

00:50:53 ◼   ► not factoring everything in.

00:50:55 ◼   ► You also have to factor in how unattractive the idea of a pay this

00:50:59 ◼   ► amount on this interval forever and ever until you cancel is to people.

00:51:04 ◼   ► That is very unattractive to a lot of people.

00:51:07 ◼   ► more so than every year after my favorite app developer goes out of business, find the

00:51:12 ◼   ► next client that I want to buy for two bucks, even though, or five bucks, even though it

00:51:15 ◼   ► may be costing the user more to do it the other way, people are more comfortable with

00:51:20 ◼   ► that. And not just because they're what it's used to, because people have a real fear of

00:51:24 ◼   ► recurring bills of all kinds. Like even if it's $1 a year, like, and I think the older

00:51:31 ◼   ► you get, the more like younger people may eventually get okay with it because you just

00:51:34 ◼   ► get used to whatever like the status quo is. Like, so if you're coming of age during this

00:51:37 ◼   ► won't be a big deal, but the older you get, like, I have trouble convincing my parents

00:51:41 ◼   ► to buy a $2 application. I could never convince them to buy a $1 a year application, even

00:51:46 ◼   ► if they use that application every single day. My parents have $1 a year to spend, but

00:51:50 ◼   ► if I try to say, "Wait, I have to pay that every year? For how long? Forever? If I stop

00:51:55 ◼   ► paying, do I stop being able to use the app?" Doesn't make any sense. People do not like

00:51:59 ◼   ► recurring payments.

00:52:00 ◼   ► You're right, there are a lot of people who don't. It's not everybody. A lot of people

00:52:05 ◼   ► don't care, but there are a lot of people who don't, certainly, but I think so many

00:52:10 ◼   ► of those people wouldn't pay for these things anyway that it's not, I don't think it's as

00:52:14 ◼   ► big of a problem as you think.

00:52:16 ◼   ► - Again, I'm thinking about applications that are changing their thing. The upside to this

00:52:21 ◼   ► and it is very large is for applications that, like the ones that Casey said, we all have

00:52:25 ◼   ► applications on our phones that we hope continue to be updated and improved that we will gladly

00:52:30 ◼   ► pay a yearly fee for. Everybody has stuff like that on their phone. Those developers

00:52:35 ◼   ► now have a way to unlock that money that we were ready to give them, but usually didn't

00:52:39 ◼   ► have a way to do so. So that is the big upside to this. The only potential downside is developers

00:52:45 ◼   ► miscalculating if their application is one of those ones that has that on tap market,

00:52:50 ◼   ► or if that on tap market is big enough or whatever. And so I guess you have to know

00:52:54 ◼   ► as a developer, who are my customers? Who are my potential customers? If I change the

00:52:58 ◼   ► subscription pricing, does my app have that much potential value to that many potential

00:53:03 ◼   ► people that it is one of those apps that can get away with subscriptions? Or does it not?

00:53:07 ◼   ► And the things that Casey was worried about is that a bunch of developers will miscalculate,

00:53:14 ◼   ► will think that they can do it and it will be like, maybe not company killing, but there

00:53:20 ◼   ► will be a short-term loss of applications as a bunch of them try out the subscription

00:53:24 ◼   ► model, lose all the customers who aren't willing to do that, people seek out alternatives and

00:53:28 ◼   ► And then when they change their mind and realize that they're not the one of those people who

00:53:31 ◼   ► can sustain subscription pricing, then switch back and it's too late, they've lost everything.

00:53:34 ◼   ► And that would be like a net loss of like, it would be, it would perturb users who lose

00:53:38 ◼   ► a bunch of applications and we, like I said, the market will sort it out eventually, but

00:53:41 ◼   ► there could be some short-term churn and pain from user perspective as developers try things

00:53:47 ◼   ► out.

00:53:48 ◼   ► Yeah, but ultimately I think this is going to be a very short-lived experimentation period.

00:53:54 ◼   ► You know, people are going to realize very quickly whether this is working for them or

00:53:57 ◼   ► not. And honestly, most developers underprice their work anyway, so I think the opposite

00:54:02 ◼   ► of the problem. I think not enough people will try this.

00:54:06 ◼   ► Although, speaking of the short-term thing, that is another phenomenon, is that if you

00:54:10 ◼   ► are the first application in a set of users' applications that they have on their home

00:54:15 ◼   ► screen or whatever to go subscription, they might be like, "You know what? I really

00:54:19 ◼   ► don't like subscriptions, but I've been hearing a lot about this new subscription

00:54:21 ◼   ► thing, and maybe I'll try it." If you are the tenth one to do that, subscription fatigue

00:54:25 ◼   ► may set in. So like so many changes in the App Store and like the App Store itself, there

00:54:28 ◼   ► is probably a gold rush period where if you can, you know, decide now, like if you want

00:54:34 ◼   ► to run this experiment, it's probably better to start soon rather than, you know, three

00:54:38 ◼   ► weeks in after everyone has been prompted three times on their home screen if they want

00:54:42 ◼   ► to, you know, change the subscription or whatever. Because if you're the first one, that is definitely

00:54:46 ◼   ► an advantage and there is definitely a first mover advantage. And then I guess you'll find

00:54:50 ◼   ► that if your model is sustainable before anyone else does.

00:54:54 ◼   ► I think most people don't really use that many apps

00:54:58 ◼   ► on a regular basis that they would even pay for,

00:55:00 ◼   ► let alone that would be subscription-based.

00:55:03 ◼   ► I'm guessing the average number of apps on somebody's phone

00:55:07 ◼   ► that are going to attempt this at all

00:55:08 ◼   ► is probably something like three at most.

00:55:11 ◼   ► I mean, it's probably not that many.

00:55:13 ◼   ► And that's why I think, I don't think the fatigue issue

00:55:16 ◼   ► or the too many eels issue,

00:55:18 ◼   ► I don't think these will be prevalent because--

00:55:21 ◼   ► - Three is fatigue.

00:55:21 ◼   ► The third one, people are gonna be like, "That's it.

00:55:23 ◼   ► No more of these applications asking me for subscriptions.

00:55:26 ◼   ► Three is definitely over the fatigue barrier.

00:55:28 ◼   ► One is the honeymoon period.

00:55:29 ◼   ► Two is you're getting grumpy.

00:55:31 ◼   ► Three is like, nope, I'm out, for regular people.

00:55:33 ◼   ► - Yeah, I agree.

00:55:34 ◼   ► - I really think these are gonna be mostly

00:55:37 ◼   ► single digit number of dollars per year.

00:55:40 ◼   ► Most people won't have a whole lot of those in their phone,

00:55:43 ◼   ► except the most power of the power users.

00:55:46 ◼   ► Then it's gonna be very small amounts per year,

00:55:49 ◼   ► and it's gonna be fine, and it's just gonna be easier

00:55:51 ◼   ► for everybody once it's all established.

00:55:53 ◼   ► But we'll see.

00:55:55 ◼   ► Anyway, to sum up this thing, I think any kind of change

00:55:58 ◼   ► subscription to broadening it in any way, even if it's vague

00:56:01 ◼   ► or whatever, is a good thing.

00:56:03 ◼   ► Because I mean, I'm talking about all

00:56:04 ◼   ► the potential bad sides.

00:56:06 ◼   ► But net, this is going to be an improvement.

00:56:09 ◼   ► Like, this is a positive change.

00:56:10 ◼   ► All we're arguing about is exactly how positive,

00:56:13 ◼   ► because it could potentially be really, really positive,

00:56:15 ◼   ► or just a little bit positive.

00:56:16 ◼   ► But it's going to be positive.

00:56:17 ◼   ► Like, make no mistake about that,

00:56:19 ◼   ► even though it sounds like I'm just complaining

00:56:20 ◼   ► about all the potential downsides

00:56:21 ◼   ► and how things can go wrong.

00:56:23 ◼   ► Like anytime there's any change, people can go wrong

00:56:25 ◼   ► and developers can make bad choices

00:56:26 ◼   ► about how to change their pricing structure

00:56:28 ◼   ► or the application or which applications to make.

00:56:31 ◼   ► But I can't see any way that this could make things worse.

00:56:34 ◼   ► This is going to make things better.

00:56:35 ◼   ► It's going to make us have better applications on the phone.

00:56:37 ◼   ► It's going to make it so that our favorite applications

00:56:40 ◼   ► don't go out of business as often

00:56:42 ◼   ► after whatever the initial shakeout period is

00:56:44 ◼   ► when people figure this out, right?

00:56:46 ◼   ► And it could potentially finally solve the problem

00:56:49 ◼   ► of how do you get pro-level, feature-full applications

00:56:54 ◼   ► on all of Apple's platforms in a way that can be ongoing,

00:56:57 ◼   ► just like it was with box software,

00:56:58 ◼   ► where year after year they would make new versions

00:57:01 ◼   ► and charge you for them and everything.

00:57:02 ◼   ► And we didn't even talk about the 85/15 split,

00:57:05 ◼   ► except for mentioning it briefly.

00:57:06 ◼   ► Also, obviously, a positive change

00:57:08 ◼   ► for everybody except for Apple.

00:57:10 ◼   ► - Right.

00:57:11 ◼   ► - You know.

00:57:12 ◼   ► (laughing)

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00:58:56 ◼   ► - We were talking earlier about the 85/15 split.

00:59:02 ◼   ► So Apple has said if you have a subscription with a user

00:59:07 ◼   ► and that user keeps a subscription for at least a year,

00:59:09 ◼   ► subsequent to that first year being completed,

00:59:12 ◼   ► Apple will only take 15% and they will give 85% of the revenue back to the developer.

00:59:18 ◼   ► And John had made a kind of offhanded comment that, "Oh, that's bad for Apple."

00:59:22 ◼   ► And I presume, John, you don't mean that in a literal sense.

00:59:25 ◼   ► It's good for everybody except Apple.

00:59:27 ◼   ► I was mostly joking.

00:59:28 ◼   ► Obviously, it's good for Apple if more people develop for the App Store and more sustainable

00:59:31 ◼   ► applications, more people develop for longer, they're motivated to make their customers

00:59:35 ◼   ► happy and keep them for a year.

00:59:37 ◼   ► Like obviously there is upside for Apple, but what I'm saying is it's all upside

00:59:43 ◼   ► for developers getting more money, and for users it's upside because the price to the

00:59:47 ◼   ► user doesn't change at all.

00:59:48 ◼   ► They don't really care how the money's split up, except for the fact that they

00:59:51 ◼   ► probably like it, that the developers are getting more money because they're not really

00:59:54 ◼   ► worried about Apple being cash-strapped at this point.

00:59:58 ◼   ► This is great because, first of all, it shows that Apple can lower their cut, and that they're

01:00:02 ◼   ► willing to selectively lower their cut now for the right reason.

01:00:06 ◼   ► - We always knew they could, it just didn't say

01:00:08 ◼   ► whether they would.

01:00:09 ◼   ► - Yeah, exactly.

01:00:10 ◼   ► So this is interesting.

01:00:12 ◼   ► So now they can lower their cut to incent behavior

01:00:17 ◼   ► that they need or want.

01:00:18 ◼   ► So I mentioned on Under the Radar,

01:00:20 ◼   ► this would be a great thing to do,

01:00:21 ◼   ► so for instance, if they really wanted to juice

01:00:25 ◼   ► or subsidize more growth of certain kinds of apps

01:00:28 ◼   ► or certain platforms, if they wanted to say,

01:00:31 ◼   ► all right, anything bought on an iPad Pro would be this,

01:00:34 ◼   ► or any Apple TV apps would have this split.

01:00:37 ◼   ► This is a way for them to turn some levers

01:00:40 ◼   ► to juice development of certain kinds of apps

01:00:43 ◼   ► that they want or need.

01:00:45 ◼   ► 'Cause I think they've seen things like the watch

01:00:48 ◼   ► and the Apple TV and the iPad Pro,

01:00:50 ◼   ► having their app stores take off probably more slowly

01:00:54 ◼   ► than Apple wanted them to.

01:00:56 ◼   ► I think it's good for them to develop incentive systems

01:00:59 ◼   ► that they can use to help juice app development

01:01:03 ◼   ► in the right and in sustainable ways.

01:01:06 ◼   ► So that's good.

01:01:07 ◼   ► It's also interesting that this is probably part

01:01:10 ◼   ► of the negotiation of things like getting Netflix

01:01:13 ◼   ► and HBO Go to allow signups on the Apple TV.

01:01:16 ◼   ► And there was actually a report back on Recode

01:01:18 ◼   ► like in April that this was the case,

01:01:20 ◼   ► that they were actually getting 15%

01:01:22 ◼   ► from the beginning on those things.

01:01:24 ◼   ► For the longest time, for the entire history

01:01:25 ◼   ► of the App Store, until possibly this

01:01:28 ◼   ► or until possibly this Apple TV deal,

01:01:30 ◼   ► All developers were given the exact same terms

01:01:33 ◼   ► and had to follow the exact same rules.

01:01:35 ◼   ► Everybody from Facebook down to the one, two, three

01:01:39 ◼   ► note takers on connected, every app was given

01:01:42 ◼   ► the same terms.

01:01:44 ◼   ► And it was very kind of fair and democratic in that way.

01:01:47 ◼   ► And that was actually, from what I understand,

01:01:49 ◼   ► that was kind of a big part of the culture

01:01:50 ◼   ► of the ediQ App Store team.

01:01:52 ◼   ► So, good on them for that.

01:01:54 ◼   ► This is interesting in that obviously there have been

01:01:57 ◼   ► market pressures for Apple to lower that rate

01:02:01 ◼   ► for certain big companies.

01:02:03 ◼   ► A big one is Amazon, right?

01:02:04 ◼   ► I'm sure part of the negotiation with Amazon

01:02:07 ◼   ► are that Amazon does not wanna give Apple 30%

01:02:09 ◼   ► of things that are bought in their apps

01:02:11 ◼   ► or memberships that are started in their apps.

01:02:13 ◼   ► Apple doesn't budge on that and Amazon doesn't budge on that

01:02:15 ◼   ► and that's why we don't have Amazon Video on the Apple TV.

01:02:18 ◼   ► This is interesting in that it looks like Apple

01:02:20 ◼   ► is now budging on that for the right reasons

01:02:23 ◼   ► which include things like getting important partners

01:02:25 ◼   ► in the Apple TV, and that as they're doing that for them,

01:02:29 ◼   ► they're also then bringing in any developer

01:02:32 ◼   ► under certain terms with that too.

01:02:34 ◼   ► So yeah, it'd be nice if all Apple TV apps

01:02:37 ◼   ► were 85/15 for everything.

01:02:39 ◼   ► That's probably not going to happen, at least not yet,

01:02:42 ◼   ► but this is nice that kind of like everybody gets

01:02:45 ◼   ► the same deal thing seems to be still either continuing

01:02:49 ◼   ► or mostly continuing.

01:02:50 ◼   ► And also this is great because like that cut being so high,

01:02:53 ◼   ► you know, 30% is a lot.

01:02:55 ◼   ► That cut being so high makes certain business models

01:03:00 ◼   ► either impossible or at least not very compelling

01:03:03 ◼   ► to even try to do on Apple's platforms.

01:03:06 ◼   ► The more they can lower that,

01:03:08 ◼   ► or the more places in which they can lower that,

01:03:10 ◼   ► the more it makes completely new business models

01:03:13 ◼   ► possible or more practical on Apple's platforms.

01:03:17 ◼   ► And that's good for everybody.

01:03:18 ◼   ► That's good for the developers and the users and Apple.

01:03:21 ◼   ► Everything won't suddenly be possible

01:03:23 ◼   ► because for a lot of business models,

01:03:24 ◼   ► 15% is still too much for somebody else to be taking.

01:03:27 ◼   ► - Still can't sell you books, 15% is too high for that,

01:03:30 ◼   ► to give one example.

01:03:31 ◼   ► - Yeah, probably, but Amazon is not going to be happy

01:03:34 ◼   ► with that either, Amazon is only going to be happy

01:03:36 ◼   ► when they can have their own checkout with their own stuff

01:03:39 ◼   ► and not pay Apple anything.

01:03:40 ◼   ► And I don't expect Amazon and Apple to resolve that

01:03:43 ◼   ► anytime soon, because Apple's certainly not gonna budge

01:03:45 ◼   ► on that, and Amazon is not going to accept anything else

01:03:48 ◼   ► from Apple, especially, at least not for the Apple TV,

01:03:51 ◼   ► where Amazon can afford to lose the Apple TV.

01:03:55 ◼   ► - Can't they just do,

01:03:57 ◼   ► you're talking about just for people

01:03:59 ◼   ► who subscribe through the app,

01:04:00 ◼   ► but don't a lot of the video apps say,

01:04:02 ◼   ► oh, if you subscribe through the web,

01:04:04 ◼   ► then Apple doesn't get any of that money,

01:04:06 ◼   ► and then you just sign it.

01:04:07 ◼   ► Why doesn't Amazon just do that?

01:04:09 ◼   ► - They already do that on all Apple's other platforms.

01:04:12 ◼   ► That's exactly what they do.

01:04:14 ◼   ► The only reason they don't do it on the Apple TV

01:04:16 ◼   ► is because there are so few Apple TVs out there

01:04:20 ◼   ► of the new generation that Amazon is gambling

01:04:23 ◼   ► that they can just afford to not be there

01:04:25 ◼   ► and that they have the upper hand in that negotiation.

01:04:28 ◼   ► Whether that's true or not--

01:04:29 ◼   ► - Sell that fire TV boxes so that you can ship them

01:04:32 ◼   ► to people for free as packing material.

01:04:34 ◼   ► - That's the whole thing with Amazon.

01:04:37 ◼   ► I have no pity for either side there.

01:04:39 ◼   ► It's two, you have two stubborn monopolists fighting over

01:04:42 ◼   ► who gets to be the stubborn monopolist.

01:04:43 ◼   ► Like okay, that's, good luck with that.

01:04:46 ◼   ► Yeah, anyway, so I think this is great.

01:04:50 ◼   ► this 85-15 thing is great.

01:04:52 ◼   ► I would love to see this in more places.

01:04:53 ◼   ► I wouldn't hold my breath on that yet,

01:04:55 ◼   ► but I'm glad to see it anywhere.

01:04:57 ◼   ► And to have this make things possible

01:05:00 ◼   ► that weren't possible before,

01:05:02 ◼   ► and to give, to reward developers

01:05:04 ◼   ► who have that kind of long-standing customer base,

01:05:08 ◼   ► to reward them with basically a raise is really cool.

01:05:12 ◼   ► And the only downside to it is that I think

01:05:15 ◼   ► for the foreseeable future,

01:05:17 ◼   ► it's probably going to benefit very few people.

01:05:19 ◼   ► Like there's gonna be very few developers

01:05:21 ◼   ► who have subscription-priced apps

01:05:24 ◼   ► and who have users sticking around that long.

01:05:26 ◼   ► I think it's gonna be a small group,

01:05:28 ◼   ► but for those people, this is really nice.

01:05:31 ◼   ► - And it's the second change that we've gone through so far

01:05:34 ◼   ► that no matter how you look at it,

01:05:36 ◼   ► definitely seems focused on what we always talk about,

01:05:39 ◼   ► sustainable development.

01:05:40 ◼   ► How do I make it more feasible for a developer

01:05:43 ◼   ► to make something for the platform

01:05:46 ◼   ► and then keep improving it year after year

01:05:48 ◼   ► rather than doing the hit and run or the one hit wonder

01:05:50 ◼   ► or the game or other throwaway type of thing.

01:05:52 ◼   ► How do we make that possible?

01:05:53 ◼   ► Subscriptions, no matter how we slice them,

01:05:56 ◼   ► either make that a little bit better or a lot better.

01:05:58 ◼   ► And AD15 after the first year couldn't be more clear.

01:06:00 ◼   ► We want you to keep your customers for an entire year.

01:06:03 ◼   ► If you can do that, there will be a reward at the end of it.

01:06:05 ◼   ► You are now incentivized, motivated to do this,

01:06:09 ◼   ► not scented, because I don't like that.

01:06:11 ◼   ► - It's a weird word.

01:06:12 ◼   ► - Yeah.

01:06:13 ◼   ► And so, yeah, so that's two for two

01:06:15 ◼   ► and trying to make a more sustainable zone.

01:06:17 ◼   ► The only question I have about it, I haven't looked into it deeply, is like the loophole

01:06:21 ◼   ► of like, so it's per customer, so it's like you, Joe Schmo, have been a customer for a

01:06:26 ◼   ► year.

01:06:27 ◼   ► Joe Schmo's subscription money after the first year changes over to 80/15, but the guy who

01:06:33 ◼   ► signed up six months later doesn't change to 80/15 to the same, so it's not calendar

01:06:36 ◼   ► year, it's like customer year.

01:06:37 ◼   ► So if you're a customer, if you have a customer who has been subscribing every month for 12

01:06:42 ◼   ► months and then a 13th month ago, you know what, I'm not subscribing anymore, and cancels

01:06:45 ◼   ► subscription and then five minutes later resubscribe or a month later

01:06:49 ◼   ► resubscribe like if there's a gap in the year-long thing that you lose out on

01:06:53 ◼   ► 8/15 does the clock start over again or does it the cumulative 11 months that

01:06:57 ◼   ► they were a subscriber and then after their 12th month like details like that

01:07:00 ◼   ► about it doesn't have to be a contiguous streak if they bail in the last month

01:07:05 ◼   ► but change their mind five minute later five minutes later or a day later or a

01:07:08 ◼   ► month later what are all the rules surrounding that because it would seem

01:07:11 ◼   ► kind of cruel to, like say you're a really good customer for an application and you want

01:07:17 ◼   ► it to be sustainable and you were really excited about being able to fund it for an entire

01:07:21 ◼   ► year because you knew in your second year that the developer would be getting more of

01:07:25 ◼   ► your money. But for whatever reason, you either accidentally or you changed your mind briefly

01:07:30 ◼   ► or something, you cancelled it. And then you re-subscribe and you're like, "Oh, I gotta

01:07:33 ◼   ► use that for another year before this developer gets..." Not that people care so much about

01:07:37 ◼   ► developers that they're worried about it, but I'm just trying to like—I hope there

01:07:42 ◼   ► are rules in there that have reasonable buffers to make it so that you don't—because you

01:07:48 ◼   ► have to keep the customer for a year.

01:07:51 ◼   ► You wouldn't want to lose out on that money due to a technicality or a silly mistake.

01:07:55 ◼   ► Real-time follow-up from Pat Murray.

01:07:57 ◼   ► There's a 60-day grace period on the '80-'15 split.

01:08:00 ◼   ► So that's pretty generous.

01:08:01 ◼   ► That is pretty cool.

01:08:02 ◼   ► I didn't know that.

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01:10:02 ◼   ► (upbeat music)

01:10:04 ◼   ► - All right, so another big change

01:10:07 ◼   ► to the way the App Store works.

01:10:10 ◼   ► You can pay to get placement in search results,

01:10:14 ◼   ► sort of, kind of.

01:10:15 ◼   ► I'm not entirely clear on how this is all held together,

01:10:20 ◼   ► and I'm guessing, Marco,

01:10:21 ◼   ► you probably have the best overall understanding of it.

01:10:24 ◼   ► So can you take the summarizer-in-chief mantle from me

01:10:28 ◼   ► and kind of give us the quick and dirty version?

01:10:31 ◼   ► just go, if you're interested in these search ads,

01:10:33 ◼   ► go to the link that we're gonna put in the show notes,

01:10:35 ◼   ► Apple's page on this, 'cause they have screenshots,

01:10:38 ◼   ► and it explains better than we can in the text,

01:10:40 ◼   ► in the audio.

01:10:42 ◼   ► Basically, the gist of this is,

01:10:44 ◼   ► they are now offering search ads for developers,

01:10:47 ◼   ► so that when you search, you can pay for your app

01:10:49 ◼   ► to show up for certain relevant search keywords

01:10:52 ◼   ► when people search certain words in the app store,

01:10:54 ◼   ► you can pay for it to take,

01:10:56 ◼   ► there's a single spot on top, it's highlighted in blue,

01:10:59 ◼   ► So you're not fooling people into thinking

01:11:01 ◼   ► this is a real result.

01:11:02 ◼   ► It looks like an ad, it's labeled as an ad.

01:11:03 ◼   ► - Well, I think you are fooling people,

01:11:05 ◼   ► but we'll get to that after you finish summarizing.

01:11:07 ◼   ► Go ahead.

01:11:08 ◼   ► - So it's basically, it's very similar

01:11:10 ◼   ► to what we've seen from search engines like Google,

01:11:12 ◼   ► from search ads for over a decade.

01:11:15 ◼   ► It's the very similar kind of thing.

01:11:17 ◼   ► And I think Apple has put in place certain limits

01:11:20 ◼   ► and controls that are there to limit potential abuse

01:11:24 ◼   ► and annoyance and possible fraud issues.

01:11:28 ◼   ► And it sounds like they've actually done a really good job.

01:11:30 ◼   ► It looks pretty good to me.

01:11:32 ◼   ► The restrictions they put in place sound pretty good.

01:11:34 ◼   ► If they work as well as they sound,

01:11:37 ◼   ► I think it'll actually be a really good system.

01:11:39 ◼   ► And by the way, just briefly,

01:11:43 ◼   ► some of those restrictions are things like,

01:11:45 ◼   ► there's obviously, there's only one ad

01:11:46 ◼   ► being shown at a time,

01:11:47 ◼   ► so you don't have to worry about a giant stack of ads

01:11:49 ◼   ► above the real search results.

01:11:51 ◼   ► Because the ads only take up at most half of the viewport,

01:11:56 ◼   ► of that viewport, you're still seeing

01:11:58 ◼   ► whatever the top couple results are,

01:11:59 ◼   ► you're still gonna see those pretty easily on screen.

01:12:01 ◼   ► So it's not really gonna bury the organic search results.

01:12:05 ◼   ► One worry that I saw a lot of people cite

01:12:07 ◼   ► was basically keyword squatting of bidders,

01:12:11 ◼   ► of big budget games bidding on your keywords,

01:12:15 ◼   ► like Image Editor or Podcast Player,

01:12:17 ◼   ► just to get their big budget game.

01:12:19 ◼   ► - Or squatting on your trademarks,

01:12:20 ◼   ► like they would actually register your product's exact name

01:12:23 ◼   ► as a keyword.

01:12:24 ◼   ► - Right, exactly.

01:12:25 ◼   ► And Apple says on this page that you're only going to show

01:12:29 ◼   ► up on searches for which your result would be relevant,

01:12:34 ◼   ► no matter how much you're willing to pay.

01:12:35 ◼   ► And so we'll see what that means in practice.

01:12:38 ◼   ► That sounds a lot like a big data search problem

01:12:40 ◼   ► that Apple's usually not very good at, but we'll see.

01:12:42 ◼   ► I can't, I'm willing to give them the benefit of that,

01:12:45 ◼   ► at least let's see what this is.

01:12:47 ◼   ► Because if they do this well,

01:12:50 ◼   ► and it looks good so far in their press shots,

01:12:53 ◼   ► we'll see how it is again.

01:12:54 ◼   ► If they do this well, I think this is great.

01:12:57 ◼   ► Other developers are, I have not heard

01:13:00 ◼   ► from any other developers who are as excited

01:13:02 ◼   ► about this as I am, and maybe that's a bad sign,

01:13:04 ◼   ► I don't know, but if you have a big budget

01:13:07 ◼   ► and you want more growth, you now have a way

01:13:09 ◼   ► to get more growth.

01:13:10 ◼   ► You can bid on some search keywords,

01:13:11 ◼   ► or there's even what I thought was interesting,

01:13:13 ◼   ► there's an option in the screenshot they show,

01:13:15 ◼   ► there's an option to not specify the keywords

01:13:18 ◼   ► and to just let Apple kind of put you into things

01:13:21 ◼   ► it thinks are relevant.

01:13:22 ◼   ► - Not just the option, I think that's the default.

01:13:24 ◼   ► - I think you're right.

01:13:25 ◼   ► So that I think is more interesting,

01:13:28 ◼   ► 'cause honestly trying to keep track

01:13:30 ◼   ► of what keywords you should be bidding on

01:13:32 ◼   ► is a lot of work and there's a lot of voodoo

01:13:34 ◼   ► and a lot of some data, some guessing,

01:13:37 ◼   ► and it makes it more work.

01:13:39 ◼   ► So if Apple can do a decent enough job

01:13:41 ◼   ► and get you a decent return or decently low cost per tap

01:13:45 ◼   ► for automatic searches, you'll actually get in more places

01:13:49 ◼   ► 'cause you'll be on keywords you wouldn't have thought of.

01:13:53 ◼   ► and if they work, then great.

01:13:55 ◼   ► So that I think is interesting, but if the system works,

01:13:58 ◼   ► so it's a way for both people with a budget to spend

01:14:01 ◼   ► to get more people to download their app, so that's cool,

01:14:06 ◼   ► and also, you know, people keep saying like,

01:14:08 ◼   ► "Oh, what's gonna happen to like the small developers

01:14:10 ◼   ► "who can't afford this?"

01:14:12 ◼   ► If you're a small developer trying to break into a market,

01:14:16 ◼   ► it is almost impossible to get meaningful exposure

01:14:20 ◼   ► unless you woo the press and get them

01:14:23 ◼   ► to write about you somehow.

01:14:25 ◼   ► This is easier and more reliable.

01:14:27 ◼   ► And yes, it costs some money,

01:14:28 ◼   ► but it's a crowded market.

01:14:30 ◼   ► Sometimes you gotta pay some money to get noticed

01:14:32 ◼   ► 'cause you have to buy promotional spots.

01:14:34 ◼   ► If you are going to try to break into a category

01:14:38 ◼   ► where no one's really gonna write about your app

01:14:40 ◼   ► or you haven't gotten the kind of press you want

01:14:42 ◼   ► or it's too narrow of a category for the press to care,

01:14:46 ◼   ► this is great, this is a way for you

01:14:48 ◼   ► to get to your customers and to be visible.

01:14:50 ◼   ► If you're launching a new photo editor,

01:14:52 ◼   ► there is no way you're going to show up

01:14:54 ◼   ► in that number one spot at any, you know, before this.

01:14:57 ◼   ► You could not show up there.

01:14:59 ◼   ► If people search for image editor

01:15:00 ◼   ► and they got this one camera

01:15:01 ◼   ► or whatever is the number one spot, that's it.

01:15:03 ◼   ► That's what they're seeing.

01:15:04 ◼   ► Your app doesn't stand a chance.

01:15:05 ◼   ► Now you have a way to get there.

01:15:08 ◼   ► And maybe you don't do it forever.

01:15:09 ◼   ► Maybe you do it only to like build your initial audience

01:15:11 ◼   ► and then you depend on, you know,

01:15:13 ◼   ► organic spreading of your app after that.

01:15:16 ◼   ► But this gives you an option

01:15:17 ◼   ► where there was no option before.

01:15:19 ◼   ► I don't see how you can look at this

01:15:20 ◼   ► and say this is a bad thing.

01:15:21 ◼   ► The only major valid criticism of this is,

01:15:25 ◼   ► yeah, they really should make the actual search better

01:15:29 ◼   ► before worrying about things like this,

01:15:31 ◼   ► but ultimately, okay, this is reality,

01:15:34 ◼   ► that's not going to happen,

01:15:35 ◼   ► the original search will get better

01:15:38 ◼   ► or not separately from this, that is independent of this.

01:15:41 ◼   ► So in the reality that we live in,

01:15:43 ◼   ► it makes this happening independently,

01:15:44 ◼   ► I would much rather have an app store

01:15:46 ◼   ► where I as a developer can buy keywords

01:15:49 ◼   ► for to promote my apps, and we'll see,

01:15:52 ◼   ► maybe the pricing will make this impossible,

01:15:54 ◼   ► but I would at least rather have the option to try

01:15:57 ◼   ► than to have something where if I wanna break

01:15:59 ◼   ► into a new market, I have to either already be famous

01:16:03 ◼   ► or get the press to write about me,

01:16:04 ◼   ► because that is not nearly as open

01:16:08 ◼   ► and democratic as this is.

01:16:09 ◼   ► - They're trying to be helpful, it seems like,

01:16:12 ◼   ► to people who have less experience in these things

01:16:14 ◼   ► by giving you the tools to do the fairly simple multiplication and division to say, "Look,

01:16:21 ◼   ► you're going to lose money if you bid," because it's an auction system, "if you bid too high,"

01:16:25 ◼   ► if this is a very popular keyword, and a lot of people are bidding on it and they're bidding

01:16:29 ◼   ► it up and up, and you get caught up in that, you won't make that money back because it

01:16:35 ◼   ► costs so much money and it's per tap, by the way.

01:16:37 ◼   ► It's not per purchase, it's not a fair time period, it's how many people tap on your results,

01:16:42 ◼   ► right?

01:16:43 ◼   ► to kind of guess what do I think my conversion rate is going to be. Of all the people who

01:16:46 ◼   ► tap on my ad, how many of them are actually going to buy it? For each one who buys it,

01:16:49 ◼   ► how much money am I going to make? And therefore, how much money does it cost me in aggregate

01:16:54 ◼   ► during this ad campaign to acquire each customer who will give me a certain amount of money?

01:16:59 ◼   ► And Apple will actually have a little tool where you can say, "Look, if you don't want

01:17:01 ◼   ► to do this very complicated multiplication and division in your own head, just put your

01:17:04 ◼   ► cost per acquisition, your CPA goal in there, and then they'll figure out how to maximize

01:17:09 ◼   ► your app downloads. Like, you just give them your target number where you feel like this

01:17:13 ◼   ► ad campaign will be worthwhile for you, whether it's you put in a number that makes you feel

01:17:17 ◼   ► like you won't lose any money or that you're willing to lose a certain amount of money,

01:17:20 ◼   ► like how much do you want it to cost you to get a new customer?

01:17:23 ◼   ► If you want it to cost you 50 cents to get a new customer and each new customer gives

01:17:26 ◼   ► you a dollar, you're going to come out ahead.

01:17:28 ◼   ► Maybe it costs you, you get a dollar from every customer but you're willing to pay $2

01:17:32 ◼   ► to acquire your first set of customers, like Marco was saying on your launch day or whatever,

01:17:36 ◼   ► you can do that.

01:17:37 ◼   ► Just put that number in and it'll do it for you.

01:17:38 ◼   ► Everything they say about this sounds good.

01:17:40 ◼   ► to I've heard, I don't know if this is text from the ads or Phil Schiller talking to people,

01:17:44 ◼   ► the idea that like, say your application is Twitterific and someone types "Twitterific"

01:17:48 ◼   ► into the search thing. I had heard that there would be no ad there, that Twitterific would

01:17:52 ◼   ► be the number one hit and there would be no ad displayed because it is an exact match

01:17:55 ◼   ► for the name of an existing application. In other words, nobody can buy the "Twitterific"

01:18:01 ◼   ► keyword to make their thing show up as the number one hit when someone searches for "Twitterific".

01:18:05 ◼   ► Again, I don't know if this is official or if it's just something that was like floating

01:18:08 ◼   ► around but that is exactly the type of thing that I would expect from Apple to try to have,

01:18:12 ◼   ► try to be classy and not sleazy.

01:18:16 ◼   ► And for the reason that I posted about this earlier on Twitter today and mentioned it

01:18:19 ◼   ► earlier when Marco said that the ads are clearly marked, it doesn't quite work on Twitter when

01:18:23 ◼   ► I, what I said was that I had heard a couple stories about how the ads, how you know ads

01:18:29 ◼   ► will be in search results and all of them had the same screenshot I assume provided

01:18:32 ◼   ► by Apple that shows a search and shows an ad at the top.

01:18:36 ◼   ► And I saw that picture four separate times on four separate websites.

01:18:40 ◼   ► Each time I looked at it, it was like, you know, in the mix with an article that I don't

01:18:43 ◼   ► like skimming and reading or whatever.

01:18:45 ◼   ► I looked at the screenshot and I'm like, "Oh, I guess this is showing an ad result."

01:18:48 ◼   ► And I looked at it and go, "Oh no, it's not showing an ad result.

01:18:50 ◼   ► This is just regular search results."

01:18:51 ◼   ► Because at that point I didn't know it had come from Apple.

01:18:53 ◼   ► I thought people were just showing what the App Store search looks like.

01:18:57 ◼   ► Four times I looked at it.

01:18:58 ◼   ► Only on the fourth time did I realize they're trying to show this as one of those ad search

01:19:03 ◼   ► results.

01:19:04 ◼   ► a little closer and then I saw the tiny letters A.D. in a little tiny blue light blue box

01:19:10 ◼   ► in a light blue thing. And so I posted to Twitter, of course everyone said, once you

01:19:12 ◼   ► say this isn't clearly marked as an ad or you know, basically I posted the story. I

01:19:17 ◼   ► saw this image four times before I realized that it was an ad. But once you say that everyone's

01:19:20 ◼   ► like look this little thing says ad right there. You can see it as clear as day. If

01:19:24 ◼   ► you're looking with that mindset, yes. And other people were like how can you not tell

01:19:27 ◼   ► it's blue? Blue doesn't mean ad. I thought it was like the top hit, a selected hit. I

01:19:32 ◼   ► no idea why it was blue.

01:19:35 ◼   ► And this is a real phenomenon.

01:19:37 ◼   ► Someone posted a tweet with a study showing that something like 57% of people don't identify

01:19:45 ◼   ► ads in like Google search results as ads.

01:19:47 ◼   ► Even though they're also clearly marked, again with a little tiny yellow thing that says

01:19:50 ◼   ► "ad" in them or whatever, if you're not going into it with the mindset that some of these

01:19:54 ◼   ► things are going to be ads and that you should look to see how they're identified, you won't

01:19:58 ◼   ► recognize this as an ad.

01:20:00 ◼   ► It will look like the most prominent and the most important, especially if it's colored

01:20:03 ◼   ► differently and it's on the top.

01:20:05 ◼   ► But there's a difference between recognizing, you know, people say, "What do you care?"

01:20:10 ◼   ► Well, a good analogy someone gave on Twitter was like, "When you go into the store to buy

01:20:13 ◼   ► DVDs," which I guess is an old person who said this, "and you see a DVD on the end cap

01:20:18 ◼   ► of the display, right?

01:20:20 ◼   ► Someone paid for that end cap placement."

01:20:21 ◼   ► Like, it's a whole retail thing where you pay the retailer more money to have your thing

01:20:24 ◼   ► more prominently placed.

01:20:26 ◼   ► Do you care that they paid for that placement?

01:20:28 ◼   ► Or do you just care that,

01:20:29 ◼   ► "Oh, that's the application that I want."

01:20:31 ◼   ► But that analogy does not work at all

01:20:33 ◼   ► because what you want people to know is,

01:20:36 ◼   ► again, in theory, this breakdown is

01:20:38 ◼   ► because Apple search is so bad.

01:20:39 ◼   ► You want them to think,

01:20:40 ◼   ► "When I do a search, the things near the top of the search

01:20:43 ◼   ► are the most relevant to the thing I searched."

01:20:46 ◼   ► Ads don't care about your relevance,

01:20:48 ◼   ► again, modulo Apple's rules.

01:20:50 ◼   ► The thing at the top when it's an ad is not there

01:20:52 ◼   ► because Apple's search algorithm thinks

01:20:53 ◼   ► this is the most relevant application for your search.

01:20:56 ◼   ► It's there because someone paid for it

01:20:57 ◼   ► to be there for your search.

01:20:58 ◼   ► And that is different.

01:20:59 ◼   ► It is different from the user's perspective.

01:21:02 ◼   ► You want to know, oh, this must be the thing.

01:21:04 ◼   ► I search for Twitter, and this is the top one.

01:21:07 ◼   ► This must be the best Twitter application, the most popular

01:21:11 ◼   ► Twitter application, the most downloaded Twitter

01:21:14 ◼   ► application, the application that most matches the keyword

01:21:16 ◼   ► Twitter, or if it's a more complicated thing or whatever.

01:21:19 ◼   ► None of those things are true if it's an ad.

01:21:21 ◼   ► If it's an ad, the answer is it's

01:21:22 ◼   ► because someone paid Apple money to put it there,

01:21:24 ◼   ► which is totally different and totally a misaligned incentive

01:21:27 ◼   ► with what the user was expecting.

01:21:28 ◼   ► Now because the Apple search results are so terrible,

01:21:30 ◼   ► maybe a paid ad is just as relevant

01:21:32 ◼   ► as the number one hit in many cases.

01:21:33 ◼   ► But in theory, it's not,

01:21:36 ◼   ► and I'm not saying there shouldn't be ads,

01:21:37 ◼   ► having only one ad is good,

01:21:38 ◼   ► having it, you know,

01:21:40 ◼   ► having you not be able to fill it with garbage lies

01:21:43 ◼   ► and well, I don't know.

01:21:44 ◼   ► Again, we fall back on the App Store not being that great.

01:21:46 ◼   ► I was gonna say that because the ads themselves

01:21:49 ◼   ► can only contain text from your actual application,

01:21:51 ◼   ► like you don't get to write an ad,

01:21:52 ◼   ► you don't get to write like your own ad copy,

01:21:55 ◼   ► it just pulls from your actual application on the store

01:21:57 ◼   ► you have to have an application on the store,

01:21:59 ◼   ► and all this does is pull your icon, your name,

01:22:01 ◼   ► your description, everything from your actual entry,

01:22:04 ◼   ► that should go towards making sure

01:22:06 ◼   ► that you can't make a misleading ad or a fake ad.

01:22:09 ◼   ► Unfortunately, as we've seen many times over,

01:22:12 ◼   ► you can make a misleading application icon,

01:22:13 ◼   ► you can make a misleading application name,

01:22:15 ◼   ► and you can make your description misleading,

01:22:17 ◼   ► and those can all be in the store,

01:22:18 ◼   ► so this doesn't really save us.

01:22:19 ◼   ► But again, in theory, the rule system is correct.

01:22:22 ◼   ► You don't get to write your own custom ad,

01:22:23 ◼   ► so it's very classy, there's only one of them, it's limited.

01:22:26 ◼   ► If everything goes well, this should all work out

01:22:27 ◼   ► really well and still I say that it's not even Apple Sport no matter how

01:22:32 ◼   ► prominently Apple says this is an ad most people I feel will not realize it's

01:22:36 ◼   ► an ad they could put ad in gigantic black letters and people be like huh

01:22:40 ◼   ► weird ad letters be here they could put this is an advertisement surgeon

01:22:44 ◼   ► general's warning smoking causes cancer in a giant box people would still not

01:22:47 ◼   ► see it this this is a real phenomenon it happens all the time and apples being so

01:22:51 ◼   ► super subtle about it there's no chance that people regular people are going to

01:22:55 ◼   ► realize this is an ad unless someone points it out to them.

01:22:57 ◼   ► Even if they notice the AD, they'd be like,

01:22:59 ◼   ► what does that mean?

01:23:00 ◼   ► Is this an advanced copy?

01:23:02 ◼   ► Or does this application contain ads?

01:23:05 ◼   ► Like, it is not clear at all.

01:23:07 ◼   ► Now, maybe it doesn't really matter

01:23:08 ◼   ► in the grand scheme of things whether it's clear,

01:23:10 ◼   ► 'cause most of the top Google search results

01:23:12 ◼   ► are also ads and nobody knows,

01:23:13 ◼   ► and people click on them and the world turns on

01:23:15 ◼   ► and everything is fine.

01:23:16 ◼   ► But I think that is the final barrier

01:23:18 ◼   ► to like a completely clean, totally classy,

01:23:21 ◼   ► I sound like Donald Trump now,

01:23:24 ◼   ► You know, like—

01:23:25 ◼   ► David: Believe me, you don't.

01:23:26 ◼   ► John: Yeah.

01:23:27 ◼   ► And Apple style, how does Apple do advertising in a way that avoids all the pitfalls of advertising?

01:23:35 ◼   ► I think they've avoided pretty much every single one of them in theory, except for the

01:23:37 ◼   ► part where people just absolutely cannot tell that this thing is an ad.

01:23:41 ◼   ► Steven: Well, I think the reason that—well, one of the reasons it's so hard to tell it's

01:23:45 ◼   ► an ad is one of the really great decisions they've made, which is what you were just

01:23:50 ◼   ► talking about that you can't really write an ad for your app.

01:23:54 ◼   ► It just shows your app's search result at the top and labels it as an ad.

01:24:00 ◼   ► And I think that's really smart because then you're not going to have a bunch of really

01:24:03 ◼   ► obnoxious like punch the monkey sort of things going on.

01:24:06 ◼   ► But on the other side of the coin, it makes it nearly indistinguishable from all the genuine

01:24:12 ◼   ► search results below it.

01:24:14 ◼   ► So it's kind of a double-edged sword.

01:24:16 ◼   ► But I will absolutely take this approach over allowing any sort of image there or, you know,

01:24:22 ◼   ► god-awful punch the monkey sort of things.

01:24:25 ◼   ► This is a much classier, much better approach, even despite the fact that by forcing it to

01:24:30 ◼   ► look like the search results below it, it does kind of blend in a bit.

01:24:35 ◼   ► And the thing is, it's not so much that it blends in because it does look distinct.

01:24:38 ◼   ► It's not like, oh, this is just like all the—but it looks like the best result.

01:24:41 ◼   ► Like that was the—I gotta find the survey for the show notes—but the survey result

01:24:44 ◼   ► was like they showed people search results, I don't know if it was Google, but like from

01:24:46 ◼   ► a search engine and they asked them, "What do you think these top results are?"

01:24:50 ◼   ► And people would say, "These are the most popular results.

01:24:53 ◼   ► These are the most relevant results.

01:24:54 ◼   ► These are the results that most other people clicked on."

01:24:57 ◼   ► Like this is what people thought those results were.

01:24:59 ◼   ► What they actually were was ads.

01:25:00 ◼   ► People could tell they were different, that they were highlighted, that they were prominent,

01:25:04 ◼   ► but what they would read that as is, "These are the best."

01:25:07 ◼   ► Like it does look different.

01:25:09 ◼   ► You can tell there's the white results and then there's the one blue one on top, but

01:25:12 ◼   ► how you interpret that blueness is not built into the blueness.

01:25:16 ◼   ► You can't tell that's blue, are you colorblind?

01:25:17 ◼   ► No, you can see that it's different.

01:25:19 ◼   ► Everyone sees it as different.

01:25:20 ◼   ► But if you ask them, again, you don't prime them by giving them the answer and say, "Can

01:25:23 ◼   ► you tell this is an ad?"

01:25:24 ◼   ► You say, "What do you think the blue results were?"

01:25:27 ◼   ► People are going to say, "That's the best result.

01:25:29 ◼   ► That's the one that's the most downloaded.

01:25:31 ◼   ► That's the highest rated."

01:25:32 ◼   ► That's what people are going to say, even though it says right in their face, capital

01:25:35 ◼   ► A, lowercase d, in a tiny little blue box that I guarantee my parents cannot see, by

01:25:38 ◼   ► the way.

01:25:40 ◼   ► Even if you made it bigger, people won't read it or people will think that that meant the

01:25:43 ◼   ► application contains ads.

01:25:44 ◼   ► Which by the way is a thing they should probably tell you, and they do tell you if it contains

01:25:47 ◼   ► in-app purchases, but anyway.

01:25:49 ◼   ► Not clear, not really Apple's fault entirely, probably almost nothing they can do about

01:25:53 ◼   ► it, but it's one of the reasons that someone's asking me if I was for or against this change.

01:25:59 ◼   ► I think I'm slightly against it, because I would rather just have a really good search.

01:26:04 ◼   ► I see all the things that Marco's saying about it from a user's perspective, how applications

01:26:10 ◼   ► "gain traction in the market is not my problem,

01:26:11 ◼   ► "and I just want really relevant search results

01:26:13 ◼   ► "without any ads that I have to skip over."

01:26:15 ◼   ► - Honestly though, as a user,

01:26:17 ◼   ► I mean maybe I'm biased, I'm a developer,

01:26:19 ◼   ► and I kind of understand the back workings of this,

01:26:22 ◼   ► but as a user, I think it also might be helpful

01:26:25 ◼   ► to know because the search is usually pretty poor,

01:26:29 ◼   ► if you're looking for something decent,

01:26:32 ◼   ► if an app is advertising, I think there's a better chance

01:26:35 ◼   ► it's a decent app because it's like,

01:26:37 ◼   ► "Oh, this app is being cared for, it has a budget,

01:26:40 ◼   ► - Or it has a really good free-to-play hooks

01:26:42 ◼   ► and it's gonna bankrupt me when my kid

01:26:45 ◼   ► spends lots of money on it.

01:26:46 ◼   ► - I mean, obviously, games are a different story here.

01:26:49 ◼   ► And games, I think, we don't usually,

01:26:52 ◼   ► when we're talking about app pricing and issues and stuff,

01:26:55 ◼   ► I think we aren't usually talking about games,

01:26:57 ◼   ► which is worth clarifying because games are obviously,

01:27:01 ◼   ► not only are they a massive part of the App Store,

01:27:04 ◼   ► and we should be talking about them--

01:27:05 ◼   ► - The majority of the App Store.

01:27:07 ◼   ► - Exactly, but they also work very differently.

01:27:09 ◼   ► in a lot of different ways.

01:27:11 ◼   ► And so, if you're just talking apps,

01:27:14 ◼   ► like non-game apps, if you're searching for something

01:27:18 ◼   ► to do something, a certain type of app or whatever,

01:27:21 ◼   ► the one that advertises there and that shows up there

01:27:23 ◼   ► and that Apple has deemed relevant to your search query

01:27:26 ◼   ► enough to show you that ad, that honestly to me

01:27:29 ◼   ► is one signal of many that you should take

01:27:33 ◼   ► with whether this is the one you look at or not.

01:27:36 ◼   ► Because it's like having a high quality icon

01:27:39 ◼   ► or high quality screenshots,

01:27:40 ◼   ► or whether you garbage up your name

01:27:43 ◼   ► with a whole bunch of crap,

01:27:44 ◼   ► or whether you leave it fairly clean.

01:27:46 ◼   ► It's one signal of many that you can use

01:27:49 ◼   ► to try to figure out when you're searching for something,

01:27:52 ◼   ► what should I look further into

01:27:54 ◼   ► than the search results screen?

01:27:56 ◼   ► What do I tap into to glance at

01:27:58 ◼   ► to evaluate and decide whether to download or not?

01:28:00 ◼   ► An app that has decided to pay for an ad

01:28:02 ◼   ► and that can pay for an ad,

01:28:04 ◼   ► and that is running an active ad campaign,

01:28:06 ◼   ► and that Apple has deemed relevant,

01:28:08 ◼   ► Those are all useful signals.

01:28:10 ◼   ► - Do you use that same logic when you do Google searches?

01:28:12 ◼   ► Do you click on the first five things which are all ads?

01:28:14 ◼   ► - I don't do Google searches anymore,

01:28:16 ◼   ► but oftentimes for DuckDuckGo, I do do searches.

01:28:20 ◼   ► I know, I'm that guy.

01:28:21 ◼   ► - I am too.

01:28:22 ◼   ► - Casey, you use DuckDuckGo?

01:28:23 ◼   ► You got all your photos in Google Photos.

01:28:25 ◼   ► They have every picture of your family,

01:28:26 ◼   ► but you won't give them your searches.

01:28:28 ◼   ► - Right, because I actually think

01:28:29 ◼   ► that DuckDuckGo has been better for me.

01:28:31 ◼   ► Those bang shortcuts, whatever they call them, are the best.

01:28:36 ◼   ► - Those are great.