ATP

00:00:00 ◼   ► - I was just feeling out to see whether you're making

00:00:01 ◼   ► a legit mistake.

00:00:03 ◼   ► We're trolling and you's trolling.

00:00:06 ◼   ► - I am a trolling.

00:00:07 ◼   ► Are you guys using your AirPods anymore?

00:00:11 ◼   ► - I still am.

00:00:12 ◼   ► - I am not.

00:00:14 ◼   ► Tiff uses them more than I do now because--

00:00:16 ◼   ► - Did you get one pair or two pair?

00:00:19 ◼   ► - I got one pair, which is two AirPods.

00:00:22 ◼   ► But yes, I got three AirPods.

00:00:25 ◼   ► - How many ear holes can you fill with the AirPods

00:00:28 ◼   ► that are in the house?

00:00:30 ◼   ► - Two.

00:00:31 ◼   ► - Okay, that's what I thought.

00:00:32 ◼   ► Okay, so you have a single pair, like you said.

00:00:34 ◼   ► - Yes.

00:00:35 ◼   ► - And Tiff is using them more than you.

00:00:37 ◼   ► - Yeah, she uses them actually often with the Apple TV.

00:00:39 ◼   ► Like when I'm podcasting, she can watch TV.

00:00:40 ◼   ► - Really?

00:00:41 ◼   ► - Yeah, it isn't as nice as using it with other stuff,

00:00:44 ◼   ► but it does work.

00:00:45 ◼   ► And there's a couple of niceties.

00:00:47 ◼   ► Like when you use the volume up and down

00:00:49 ◼   ► on the Apple TV remote with AirPods connected,

00:00:52 ◼   ► it does the volume to them instead of like your speakers.

00:00:54 ◼   ► So it doesn't do like the auto pairing thing

00:00:56 ◼   ► the way it does on iOS devices,

00:00:57 ◼   ► but once you have it paired, it works nicely.

00:01:00 ◼   ► - So how does that, I'm not trying to be funny,

00:01:02 ◼   ► how does that work then?

00:01:03 ◼   ► Do you have to like go into settings in the Apple TV

00:01:05 ◼   ► and say connect to the AirPods every single time?

00:01:08 ◼   ► - I forget if we do it every single time.

00:01:11 ◼   ► I think it was just the first time.

00:01:12 ◼   ► I don't know, usually she just does it.

00:01:14 ◼   ► I think once they're paired.

00:01:15 ◼   ► - As long as you don't pair them

00:01:16 ◼   ► with something else though, right?

00:01:17 ◼   ► - That's the issue.

00:01:18 ◼   ► And so, I've actually seen this a number of times.

00:01:21 ◼   ► Like I was doing, I was trying to do testing

00:01:23 ◼   ► between like the phone, the TV, iPad,

00:01:27 ◼   ► watch, a Mac, like, you know,

00:01:29 ◼   ► testing all these different things,

00:01:30 ◼   ► and I found that AirPods are a little bit frustrating

00:01:34 ◼   ► in trying to share between different devices

00:01:38 ◼   ► and having it not quite always do what you want.

00:01:40 ◼   ► Like, even though the old way of doing Bluetooth,

00:01:44 ◼   ► where you just have to, like, un-pair from one device

00:01:45 ◼   ► and pair it to something else, that's also terrible.

00:01:48 ◼   ► But the way AirPods do it is not quite flawless.

00:01:52 ◼   ► But it's-- - How do they do it?

00:01:53 ◼   ► That's my question.

00:01:54 ◼   ► because I have used my AirPods with my phone and my iPad,

00:01:57 ◼   ► right, those are two devices.

00:01:59 ◼   ► - Yeah.

00:02:01 ◼   ► - Is something supposed to happen

00:02:02 ◼   ► other than me going to settings and tapping Bluetooth

00:02:05 ◼   ► and tapping AirPods, 'cause that's what I've been doing.

00:02:08 ◼   ► - My favorite thing is occasionally I'll put in

00:02:10 ◼   ► a single AirPod and I'll be in like the bedroom

00:02:13 ◼   ► and I'm listening to a podcast or something like that.

00:02:16 ◼   ► And then I'll put in, it's like five or 10 minutes later,

00:02:19 ◼   ► I'll put in another, the other AirPod,

00:02:23 ◼   ► and it will go to connect.

00:02:24 ◼   ► And for whatever reason,

00:02:26 ◼   ► it will semi-consistently connect to the iMac,

00:02:28 ◼   ► which is in the next room over in the office.

00:02:30 ◼   ► And so I have one AirPod connected to my phone

00:02:33 ◼   ► and one connected to my iMac.

00:02:35 ◼   ► And so I'll double tap like the one connected to the iMac,

00:02:39 ◼   ► which I still haven't changed to do play/pause.

00:02:42 ◼   ► So I'll hear Siri out of one ear

00:02:44 ◼   ► and then like whatever podcast I'm listening to

00:02:45 ◼   ► out of the other ear.

00:02:46 ◼   ► It's actually quite funny.

00:02:48 ◼   ► And I could see how that would be really frustrating

00:02:51 ◼   ► someone who isn't like a developer perhaps or who doesn't think about how difficult it is to

00:02:56 ◼   ► implement all this, but to me I just find it to be hysterical. Yeah, I still get some weird audio

00:03:01 ◼   ► sync problems sometimes, but overall they're still winning just because I guess my hatred of chords

00:03:05 ◼   ► and snags has changed everything else. I find it very frustrating that I can't change volume and

00:03:10 ◼   ► I have all these crazy schemes on how to adjust the volume by like reaching into my pocket and

00:03:16 ◼   ► feeling for which side of the phone is face up so I know whether I have to reach for the side with

00:03:20 ◼   ► the power button or the volume thing like, especially with gloves on and stuff like that.

00:03:26 ◼   ► Slow down.

00:03:27 ◼   ► Are you talking pant pocket or jacket pocket?

00:03:28 ◼   ► Jacket.

00:03:29 ◼   ► Oh, okay.

00:03:30 ◼   ► Then I singed my song.

00:03:31 ◼   ► You know, I wear winter jacket and you know, reach around there to change the thing.

00:03:36 ◼   ► Or like when I do it in the kitchen, like I said, I don't even put the phone in the

00:03:38 ◼   ► kitchen.

00:03:39 ◼   ► The phone is in the dining room.

00:03:41 ◼   ► So if I want to change the volume, I have to like take a few steps into the other room

00:03:44 ◼   ► and on the little sideboard thing hit the volume up or down.

00:03:47 ◼   ► And I'm living with it and apparently, you know, proof's in the pudding.

00:03:52 ◼   ► People hate it when I say that because that's not correct.

00:03:53 ◼   ► But deal with it, you know what I mean.

00:03:58 ◼   ► That I'm now using them despite the fact that double tapping my ear is uncomfortable.

00:04:03 ◼   ► And despite the fact that double tapping works weirdly and consistently.

00:04:07 ◼   ► Some people have suggested the triple tap to try to, you know, have a mulligan in there

00:04:11 ◼   ► if one of them doesn't register.

00:04:14 ◼   ► Sometimes I blame Overcast and/or /iOS for taking Overcast out of memory so that it has

00:04:20 ◼   ► to launch again before it can start playing, and then I question whether it registered

00:04:26 ◼   ► my Taps and it just hasn't started playing yet.

00:04:28 ◼   ► Sometimes it's so far out of memory that it starts playing music, despite the fact that

00:04:32 ◼   ► the last thing I was listening to was a podcast.

00:04:36 ◼   ► Very confusing.

00:04:37 ◼   ► But anyway, all that said, I'm still using them instead of my wired ones.

00:04:41 ◼   ► The only place I've used my wired ones recently was watching my iPad in a case where my AirPods

00:04:47 ◼   ► were downstairs.

00:04:48 ◼   ► And it's like, "Well, I've got the wired headphones here and I'm not going anywhere when I'm just

00:04:51 ◼   ► watching something on my iPad on my bed or something."

00:04:54 ◼   ► - I mean, like the wireless I'm totally sold on.

00:04:56 ◼   ► And as I mentioned earlier, like, I love the idea of the AirPods as just how incredibly

00:05:00 ◼   ► small and pocketable they are.

00:05:02 ◼   ► They don't fit me comfortably and they don't really work for my life as a result.

00:05:06 ◼   ► And so that's why I'm not really using them and why I tend to be using them more than

00:05:09 ◼   ► I am.

00:05:10 ◼   ► But that being said, all those limitations about

00:05:12 ◼   ► what you can and can't easily control from them,

00:05:15 ◼   ► like volume and play/pause being finicky

00:05:17 ◼   ► and stuff like that, when I switch back to my

00:05:21 ◼   ► beloved old Sennheiser PX210BT,

00:05:25 ◼   ► when it has its giant, this little on-ear Bluetooth set

00:05:29 ◼   ► that I've had for a couple years now

00:05:31 ◼   ► that I walk my dog every day with,

00:05:33 ◼   ► and it just has these big plastic buttons

00:05:37 ◼   ► on the right ear cup and I can play/pause,

00:05:39 ◼   ► volume up and down, seek back, seek forward,

00:05:41 ◼   ► next track, previous track, all with these five buttons

00:05:44 ◼   ► on the right ear cup and it is just so convenient.

00:05:47 ◼   ► And every time I try other headphones for a little while

00:05:50 ◼   ► to review them or to talk about them on the show

00:05:52 ◼   ► or whatever else, whenever I go back to my crappy

00:05:55 ◼   ► little Sennheiser Bluetooth headphones,

00:05:57 ◼   ► I am so happy with the amount of control and convenience

00:06:00 ◼   ► that I have for them, even though they sound like crap

00:06:03 ◼   ► and they're pretty ugly and they are still

00:06:06 ◼   ► like over the head headphones, even though they're

00:06:08 ◼   ► compact ones, so they don't fit in any pocket really.

00:06:11 ◼   ► They'll fit in jacket pockets, but not in like

00:06:13 ◼   ► a pants pocket, and it is just so nice to have those.

00:06:16 ◼   ► And I've tried now, I still haven't done a review,

00:06:20 ◼   ► I keep meaning to maybe do video reviews,

00:06:22 ◼   ► and I keep putting that off, 'cause it turns out

00:06:23 ◼   ► video's a lot of work, but I've tried now many

00:06:28 ◼   ► high end Bluetooth headphones, including the AirPods,

00:06:32 ◼   ► but also including like all like the $400 crazy ones

00:06:35 ◼   ► from like B&O and B&W and Bose

00:06:38 ◼   ► and all these other headphone companies.

00:06:41 ◼   ► And the convenience of my relatively cheap

00:06:44 ◼   ► Bluetooth headphones that just have big plastic buttons

00:06:46 ◼   ► on the side cannot be beat.

00:06:48 ◼   ► Like it is, they are so convenient for everyday use.

00:06:51 ◼   ► That's why I'll use them for podcasts.

00:06:53 ◼   ► And I would never recommend them for music

00:06:54 ◼   ► 'cause they sound like trash.

00:06:57 ◼   ► They just have the worst sound for music ever.

00:06:59 ◼   ► But for podcasts, it's totally fine.

00:07:01 ◼   ► And oh man, it's just so nice having those

00:07:04 ◼   ► physical controls right on the ear,

00:07:05 ◼   ► I can operate it with gloves on,

00:07:07 ◼   ► I don't have to use any voice assistants,

00:07:08 ◼   ► they work every single time,

00:07:09 ◼   ► like it's just reliable physical controls.

00:07:12 ◼   ► And they're not sexy, and they're not cool, but they work.

00:07:16 ◼   ► And it's really hard to beat that for me.

00:07:18 ◼   ► - Yeah, if only there was a device you could like,

00:07:20 ◼   ► I don't know, strapped to your body somehow,

00:07:23 ◼   ► that would give you all of those physical controls,

00:07:26 ◼   ► and also let you like get a text message,

00:07:29 ◼   ► and also let you reply to a text message,

00:07:31 ◼   ► and also let you get other notifications.

00:07:33 ◼   ► Wouldn't that be awesome?

00:07:34 ◼   ► Anyway, let's do some follow-up.

00:07:35 ◼   ► - No, actually, remember, I said that it works every time.

00:07:38 ◼   ► The ear cup buttons work every time, not 80% of the time.

00:07:41 ◼   ► And I can use them with gloves on and yeah.

00:07:44 ◼   ► - Speaking of that, I keep forgetting to try that.

00:07:45 ◼   ► That was suggested so long ago

00:07:47 ◼   ► and it still hasn't occurred to me to try that.

00:07:49 ◼   ► I should give that a try, although I really don't

00:07:50 ◼   ► be wearing watches. - Try what?

00:07:51 ◼   ► Using the watch?

00:07:52 ◼   ► Okay. - Yeah.

00:07:53 ◼   ► As an example of having a physical volume control

00:07:55 ◼   ► is easier than reaching into my pocket

00:07:57 ◼   ► and finding my phone's volume button and stuff like that.

00:08:00 ◼   ► - Truth be told, finding the volume button

00:08:02 ◼   ► is probably easier, but this is a solvable problem.

00:08:06 ◼   ► It's just that you don't want to solve it,

00:08:08 ◼   ► you don't want it to be solved the way it has been solved.

00:08:10 ◼   ► Sounds like me in cars.

00:08:11 ◼   ► Let's do some follow-up. - No, no,

00:08:12 ◼   ► there's actually a solution.

00:08:14 ◼   ► I already have it.

00:08:14 ◼   ► It was really cheap a few years ago,

00:08:16 ◼   ► and it works perfectly every time.

00:08:19 ◼   ► And the newfangled solution is both

00:08:23 ◼   ► something like four times the price and worse.

00:08:26 ◼   ► So no, this actually is a case

00:08:28 ◼   ► where the old solution was totally fine.

00:08:31 ◼   ► And the good thing is, this is one of those areas

00:08:33 ◼   ► where as you, Casey, have been an advocate of for so long,

00:08:37 ◼   ► cheap Bluetooth headphones are plentiful these days.

00:08:40 ◼   ► Tons of people make cheap Bluetooth headphones.

00:08:42 ◼   ► And they're largely pretty decent.

00:08:45 ◼   ► They're not good, but they're decent.

00:08:47 ◼   ► And for their price, they're usually fairly reasonable.

00:08:51 ◼   ► And these headphones were, at the time,

00:08:53 ◼   ► I bought them kind of expensive

00:08:55 ◼   ► at something like $100 or $110.

00:08:59 ◼   ► They're not worth more than that

00:09:00 ◼   ► if you see them for sale, don't pay more than that.

00:09:02 ◼   ► But they're not even worth that really these days.

00:09:05 ◼   ► However, this is like a five year old pair of headphones.

00:09:08 ◼   ► This is one of the areas where the higher end headphones,

00:09:10 ◼   ► the higher end wireless headphones

00:09:13 ◼   ► are nicer in certain ways.

00:09:15 ◼   ► They are possibly more portable like AirPods.

00:09:17 ◼   ► They are better sounding like some of the high end ones

00:09:20 ◼   ► from B&O and stuff.

00:09:21 ◼   ► They are better noise cancellation

00:09:24 ◼   ► and maybe more comfortable

00:09:25 ◼   ► 'cause they're larger on ear things.

00:09:27 ◼   ► However, for practicality of just like wireless,

00:09:30 ◼   ► wearing them while walking or running or around the house,

00:09:33 ◼   ► doing stuff like John cooking,

00:09:35 ◼   ► the cheap ones with plastic buttons on them

00:09:38 ◼   ► are actually better for almost all purposes

00:09:41 ◼   ► for that kind of use than the high-end expensive ones.

00:09:44 ◼   ► - I mostly agree with you.

00:09:46 ◼   ► If you ever need to flip between devices,

00:09:50 ◼   ► then the AirPods or anything really with a W1 chip

00:09:53 ◼   ► start to make a lot more sense.

00:09:55 ◼   ► But if you are consistent with one machine, for example, my $25 Bluetooth headphones I

00:10:01 ◼   ► bought literally five years ago, I believe, that are still kicking, I just don't use them

00:10:04 ◼   ► because my AirPods.

00:10:06 ◼   ► I only ever use those with my work computer, and it was great.

00:10:10 ◼   ► The sound was acceptable, and they had buttons on the side if I really needed them, although

00:10:16 ◼   ► I had the keyboard right in front of me.

00:10:18 ◼   ► But anyway, yeah, they worked just fine.

00:10:20 ◼   ► And I do agree with you.

00:10:21 ◼   ► You know, I freaking love my AirPods, but nonetheless, if you don't feel like spending

00:10:28 ◼   ► $160 on a set of little earbuds, you can easily spend between $20 and $100 and get something

00:10:33 ◼   ► that's nearly as good as long as you're not switching between devices frequently.

00:10:38 ◼   ► As long as you don't mind a giant thing, like I would never trade my AirPods.

00:10:41 ◼   ► I would go back to wired earbuds before I would go to a big thing that goes over my

00:10:45 ◼   ► head with a big band and puts two big squishy circles on my ears.

00:10:48 ◼   ► Like I want the buds.

00:10:50 ◼   ► That's what I want.

00:10:51 ◼   ► And so wired or wireless, those are my choices.

00:10:53 ◼   ► And then a distant third would be,

00:10:55 ◼   ► okay, if I can't have any kind of earbud,

00:10:57 ◼   ► then I guess I'll go an over-ear thing.

00:11:00 ◼   ► - Fair enough.

00:11:01 ◼   ► All right, let's start the show and do some follow-up.

00:11:04 ◼   ► John, why don't you tell me about phone contracts

00:11:08 ◼   ► and other ways that you can make people buy iPhones?

00:11:12 ◼   ► - This is much more interesting, thanks.

00:11:14 ◼   ► - Yeah, last week, we were talking about

00:11:16 ◼   ► the different tractors that make people feel like

00:11:19 ◼   ► need to get a new device on a faster schedule than people apparently and/or supposedly get

00:11:25 ◼   ► new iPads.

00:11:27 ◼   ► And I was bringing up the idea that phones get dropped and break more often than iPads,

00:11:31 ◼   ► just by their nature.

00:11:33 ◼   ► So that could be one thing that will make people turn them over.

00:11:35 ◼   ► A couple of people wrote in to bring up the idea of contracts, which are less prevalent

00:11:41 ◼   ► now than they used to be in the US.

00:11:43 ◼   ► It used to be that the phone was like, "Oh, it's, you know, $200 for this phone on a two-year

00:11:48 ◼   ► your contract revolved, blah, and they would just, typical money hiding schemes where,

00:11:52 ◼   ► you know, human nature makes you not see the upfront cost and you don't do the multiplication

00:11:57 ◼   ► in your head, so it seems like a cheaper deal. These days, it seems to me, as someone who

00:12:02 ◼   ► does not buy a new phone that often, that the shift is more towards...

00:12:05 ◼   ► You've bought a new phone exactly once! Yeah, well, no, you know, I've, I suppose.

00:12:11 ◼   ► I've bought my track phones, too. That the move is away from contracts and more towards

00:12:18 ◼   ► buying them up front unlocked. I don't know if that's a just an iPhone thing or just a

00:12:23 ◼   ► my personal experience thing, but either way historically that has been a big motivator

00:12:27 ◼   ► to get people to buy a new phone every few years because it seems like a good deal because

00:12:31 ◼   ► they hide all the costs from you in a way that makes your silly fallible brain feel

00:12:37 ◼   ► like you're not spending the money that you are spending.

00:12:39 ◼   ► No, wait, can we pause here for a moment? Am I supposed to be paying less on my cell

00:12:44 ◼   ► phone bill now that I buy my phones outright because I'm not?

00:12:47 ◼   ► - No, you shouldn't be, but there is.

00:12:49 ◼   ► - Ah, that's not true.

00:12:51 ◼   ► - Well, it depends on how bad of a deal you got,

00:12:53 ◼   ► but the strange thing about the deals now

00:12:55 ◼   ► is that they psychologically seem more expensive.

00:12:59 ◼   ► - No, like mine just is more expensive.

00:13:01 ◼   ► Like, so I have AT&T, and I started buying my phones out

00:13:05 ◼   ► right at not taking their subsidies anymore,

00:13:07 ◼   ► and the plans are all still the same prices,

00:13:09 ◼   ► and I, like, I'm not, I'm just spending more money now.

00:13:12 ◼   ► - No, you should be spending,

00:13:14 ◼   ► you should be spending a little bit less.

00:13:15 ◼   ► I'm logging into AT&T right now,

00:13:17 ◼   ► But what happens is the plans cost the same.

00:13:21 ◼   ► However, they give you a very peculiarly,

00:13:26 ◼   ► peculiar named discount

00:13:28 ◼   ► once you're no longer subsidizing a phone.

00:13:31 ◼   ► And it's gonna take me like three hours

00:13:33 ◼   ► to figure out where in my bill this is listed.

00:13:36 ◼   ► - Yeah, I remember hearing the same thing from my wife

00:13:39 ◼   ► who wrangles the phone contracts.

00:13:41 ◼   ► Sometimes you have to call them to remind them

00:13:44 ◼   ► to give you the better deal once you're off contract

00:13:47 ◼   ► and then that deal gets, I don't know.

00:13:49 ◼   ► - Discount for access, which is on the main line,

00:13:52 ◼   ► $25 off your total cost.

00:13:54 ◼   ► - What a great name.

00:13:55 ◼   ► - Because discount for access,

00:13:56 ◼   ► actually it's on both lines, it's $25 off.

00:13:59 ◼   ► Because when I think discount for access,

00:14:01 ◼   ► I think this is offsetting the subsidy cost, don't you?

00:14:04 ◼   ► (laughing)

00:14:06 ◼   ► - That's fantastic.

00:14:07 ◼   ► - Yeah, but it is an interesting change

00:14:09 ◼   ► that they're getting brave enough to reveal the price

00:14:13 ◼   ► in a way that will register with consumers' brains

00:14:16 ◼   ► in the way that, you know, it's much scarier

00:14:18 ◼   ► than the old way of like, oh, every new iPhone is $200.

00:14:21 ◼   ► Now every new iPhone is $800.

00:14:23 ◼   ► And you're like, whoa, $800?

00:14:25 ◼   ► It's like you just didn't do the math before.

00:14:28 ◼   ► So then the other factor that people wouldn't talk about

00:14:31 ◼   ► for getting new phones that's gonna make you get a new phone

00:14:34 ◼   ► before you would get a new iPad or even a new, you know,

00:14:37 ◼   ► laptop is battery life,

00:14:39 ◼   ► which you think would make a difference

00:14:40 ◼   ► because iPads and laptops have batteries too,

00:14:41 ◼   ► but phones' batteries are really, really small

00:14:44 ◼   ► and they're much closer to the ragged edge of acceptable

00:14:47 ◼   ► in terms of battery life.

00:14:48 ◼   ► So when the tiny little battery that probably is subjected

00:14:52 ◼   ► to much harsher environmental conditions

00:14:53 ◼   ► than your iPad or your laptop,

00:14:55 ◼   ► in terms of putting it in pockets

00:14:58 ◼   ► or maybe leaving it in cars and stuff like that,

00:15:00 ◼   ► like I feel like in the same way of dropping,

00:15:02 ◼   ► the phone goes everywhere with you.

00:15:04 ◼   ► So there's more variability,

00:15:05 ◼   ► even just being in your outside jacket pocket

00:15:07 ◼   ► during the winter, which I'm guilty of.

00:15:08 ◼   ► I mean, when I'm shoveling snow,

00:15:09 ◼   ► I have my phone in my jacket pocket.

00:15:11 ◼   ► That can't be good for the battery

00:15:12 ◼   ► to deal with those temperatures.

00:15:14 ◼   ► Anyway, when the phone battery starts to go south, it's a bad scene.

00:15:19 ◼   ► You can deal with a many years old iPad battery because then it drops from 10 hours to 5,

00:15:26 ◼   ► but because of the way we use iPads that's okay.

00:15:28 ◼   ► But if your phone drops from making it until 6pm to making it to only 4pm, that's a no

00:15:35 ◼   ► go and you're going to be like, "Oh, I need a new phone because my battery sucks."

00:15:38 ◼   ► So more hardware based reasons that people want new phones sooner than they want new

00:15:43 ◼   ► Also, there's the Apple whatever upgrade program. I forget what it's called now, but I feel like several

00:15:50 ◼   ► Like normal people that I know have started doing that. What is that called? Is it just upgrade iPhone upgrade program?

00:15:56 ◼   ► But anyway, I feel like that's yes iPhone upgrade program and that and there are equivalents with each carrier that are roughly the same money

00:16:05 ◼   ► So I feel like that's what's going on is it's your sort of kind of leasing your phone now

00:16:10 ◼   ► - I mean, honestly, this is really a better system.

00:16:13 ◼   ► I mean, this is like, most of the rest of the world

00:16:16 ◼   ► outside of the US were doing systems that were more

00:16:20 ◼   ► like this long before we were, or you literally just

00:16:24 ◼   ► bought the phone outright and then paid cheaper plans.

00:16:26 ◼   ► It does make more sense this way.

00:16:29 ◼   ► Things are a little bit more honest, even though they,

00:16:33 ◼   ► as usual, America has taken a straight, normal, honest

00:16:36 ◼   ► system and has twisted it in such a way that it's really

00:16:39 ◼   ► confusing and complicated and tries to hide

00:16:41 ◼   ► all the actual costs still.

00:16:43 ◼   ► - It's called capitalism.

00:16:44 ◼   ► - It's called something.

00:16:45 ◼   ► But yeah, I mean, I think this is still,

00:16:49 ◼   ► this is long-term a better system,

00:16:51 ◼   ► even if it is somewhat confusing in the short-term

00:16:53 ◼   ► as we have made this transition over the last few years.

00:16:56 ◼   ► - All right.

00:16:57 ◼   ► John, tell me, if I take a photograph

00:17:01 ◼   ► of you flashing me the peace sign, is that a problem?

00:17:05 ◼   ► This is related to the idea of biometrics

00:17:09 ◼   ► and how accessible the features of your body

00:17:12 ◼   ► may be to other people, because once they have them,

00:17:16 ◼   ► and if you use them as a means of security on your devices,

00:17:19 ◼   ► then you've got a problem,

00:17:20 ◼   ► because as we established that show,

00:17:22 ◼   ► your face is indeed your face

00:17:24 ◼   ► and your fingers are your fingers.

00:17:25 ◼   ► And so I was talking about how it is easier

00:17:28 ◼   ► to get pictures of someone's face,

00:17:30 ◼   ► that is to get pictures of their fingerprints.

00:17:33 ◼   ► Two articles related to this.

00:17:35 ◼   ► One from Japan where cultural custom is to flash the peace sign, two fingers up in the

00:17:40 ◼   ► air in photos.

00:17:42 ◼   ► And if you do that, obviously you're facing two of your fingerprints right at the camera.

00:17:47 ◼   ► Get good enough lighting, get enough megapixels, you can lift your prints off of that.

00:17:51 ◼   ► So there's an article about that happening and being careful about it because you are

00:17:56 ◼   ► literally showing them your fingerprints.

00:17:58 ◼   ► Here they are!

00:17:59 ◼   ► And, you know, technology's amazing, we can lift fingerprints from that.

00:18:02 ◼   ► And then the second article was in a more challenging scenario.

00:18:05 ◼   ► Can we pull fingerprints from a photo where someone's not flashing a peace sign, but we

00:18:10 ◼   ► just happen to catch their finger at the right angle at the right time, whether it be video

00:18:14 ◼   ► or still photos?

00:18:16 ◼   ► And the answer is yes, you can do that as well if you get the right shot.

00:18:21 ◼   ► All of which is scary and all of which leads to the idea that especially for public figures

00:18:26 ◼   ► or people who expect to be photographed or people who have access to things that are

00:18:30 ◼   ► highly desirable as opposed to just like your personal email account but if you are someone

00:18:35 ◼   ► who is a head of state or something and you're using your fingerprints for something important

00:18:38 ◼   ► then people are highly motivated to get them. So yeah, be careful out there. Don't show

00:18:44 ◼   ► people your fingers or your face I suppose.

00:18:46 ◼   ► Yeah, just never be photographed in any capacity ever.

00:18:50 ◼   ► Yep.

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00:20:51 ◼   ► Continuing, Jon, can you tell me about Chromebooks and Chrome OS and how that relates to ARM

00:20:58 ◼   ► Macs?

00:20:59 ◼   ► We talked about the ARM Mac rumor idea from Slashdot as a more locked-down Mac-type system,

00:21:07 ◼   ► and a lot of people brought up Chromebooks, which we have talked about in the past, as

00:21:11 ◼   ► an example of a very similar type of thing that has existed for a while.

00:21:15 ◼   ► It's taking it more to the extreme.

00:21:16 ◼   ► Not only is the Chromebook obviously locked down in the way that this fantasize/rumor

00:21:24 ◼   ► on a Mac was, but also it shifts everything to network, which this rumor did not mention

00:21:30 ◼   ► anything about the Mac being.

00:21:31 ◼   ► But it all boils down to the piece of hardware being more robust in the face of user indifference.

00:21:40 ◼   ► I don't know how to phrase it.

00:21:43 ◼   ► You don't have to know how to, you can know less about using a personal computer and be

00:21:49 ◼   ► successful with it in the same way that you don't need to know as much about personal

00:21:52 ◼   ► computing to be successful with an iPad or an iPhone as opposed to a MacBook.

00:21:56 ◼   ► So Chromebooks, there are far fewer places where you can get into trouble.

00:21:59 ◼   ► Software installing software is more straightforward.

00:22:02 ◼   ► The number of things you can do to it to mess it up is much lower.

00:22:05 ◼   ► The overall system is simpler.

00:22:07 ◼   ► Obviously Chromebook and Chrome OS are a far cry from the Mac operating system with a heavy

00:22:12 ◼   ► focus on doing stuff with web technologies through a browser with many

00:22:17 ◼   ► things being put into the cloud and I think that simplification in fact is a

00:22:21 ◼   ► big advantage Chromebooks have over any of Apple's devices. The aggressively

00:22:27 ◼   ► cloud centric focus that this thing you're holding your hand is nothing

00:22:30 ◼   ► everything you do if you have access to the network is saved to the network

00:22:35 ◼   ► aggressively so that pretty much at any point when you're working on a Chromebook

00:22:39 ◼   ► You can do a five count and then throw the thing out the window into a lake and

00:22:43 ◼   ► Then go get another Chromebook from the back room and sign in and resume where you left off

00:22:47 ◼   ► You cannot do that with any Apple device. All right, that's the dream of the Chromebook

00:22:51 ◼   ► I've always thought it was a brilliant idea perhaps not very well executed. But every time we talk about

00:22:56 ◼   ► iPads or Macs especially as they relate to education

00:23:00 ◼   ► people come out of the woodwork to tell us how

00:23:03 ◼   ► Chromebooks are kicking apples butt in education because what a dream machine

00:23:07 ◼   ► You know, educational institutions do not want to deal with wrangling computers or software

00:23:12 ◼   ► or anything like that.

00:23:13 ◼   ► You have a bunch of computers that you're going to put a bunch of students in front

00:23:16 ◼   ► of.

00:23:17 ◼   ► That's just, you know, they're going to do everything they can to mess those things up.

00:23:21 ◼   ► And even if they don't, the computers, like, eventually will mess themselves up, especially

00:23:25 ◼   ► if they're, you know, if it's Windows and we're in a decade ago, I assume it's better

00:23:30 ◼   ► now.

00:23:31 ◼   ► Chromebooks are very resilient.

00:23:32 ◼   ► Sorry iPads for that matter, but Chromebooks even more so in that they are resistant to

00:23:37 ◼   ► to slowly degrading and/or being compromised by devious students.

00:23:43 ◼   ► And there's lots of good tools for managing fleets of these things and for having multiple

00:23:48 ◼   ► students sign into them.

00:23:49 ◼   ► And Apple's made some strides here with their weird multi-user sign in and out sync everything

00:23:53 ◼   ► from iCloud things they've been doing with the iPad lately.

00:23:56 ◼   ► But Chromebooks almost always been on price because you can get cheap crappy ones.

00:24:01 ◼   ► And you know, cash-strapped schools love that.

00:24:04 ◼   ► And they're doing very well in management.

00:24:05 ◼   ► And I always wonder if Apple cares that much about that market or do they just like the

00:24:11 ◼   ► rest of the many markets, they just want the high end of that market, they just want to

00:24:13 ◼   ► sell iPads to the rich schools and let everyone else have Chromebooks or something.

00:24:17 ◼   ► But I worry that the value proposition represented by Chromebooks in the ideal, if not in actuality,

00:24:25 ◼   ► is not falling on deaf ears at Apple, but is not valued by the people inside Apple as

00:24:32 ◼   ► much as it should be.

00:24:34 ◼   ► talk about future of computing, many of the aspects promised by Chromebooks and many of

00:24:38 ◼   ► them delivered by Chromebooks definitely feel more like the future of computing in terms

00:24:44 ◼   ► of having to worry less about managing the machine and having to worry less about the

00:24:49 ◼   ► machine itself because in a network connected world, yes, you can work offline but it would

00:24:54 ◼   ► be great if the source of truth was someplace fast and reliable that is not sitting in front

00:24:58 ◼   ► of you.

00:24:59 ◼   ► a part of, last week when we were talking about that rumored slashdot comment, locked

00:25:05 ◼   ► down next generation ARM Mac, even though again, just claim already, that was very unlikely

00:25:11 ◼   ► to be true. However, one thing I forgot to mention during my rant about how good that

00:25:15 ◼   ► might be is that that might address the Chromebook market pretty well too. Like, that wouldn't

00:25:21 ◼   ► have to be a high-end hardware device, that could run on iPad class hardware and be passable.

00:25:28 ◼   ► And so they could, if Apple wanted to address this market,

00:25:31 ◼   ► which as you pointed out, they might not want to,

00:25:34 ◼   ► although I think it's, I'm with you,

00:25:36 ◼   ► I think they should address it if they reasonably can.

00:25:41 ◼   ► Which is not to say definitely yes or no,

00:25:43 ◼   ► but I think if they reasonably can address it,

00:25:45 ◼   ► I think they should.

00:25:46 ◼   ► Because having mass numbers of students growing up

00:25:50 ◼   ► using all Google services on all Google computers

00:25:53 ◼   ► is probably not good for Apple long term.

00:25:56 ◼   ► But that being said, if Apple could take that kind of

00:25:59 ◼   ► next gen Mac on ARM concept and make a very low end

00:26:02 ◼   ► hardware device that was basically like, you know,

00:26:05 ◼   ► mid generation iPad level hardware.

00:26:08 ◼   ► Like, suppose that OS is two years away,

00:26:10 ◼   ► they could take today's like iPad Air 2 hardware,

00:26:13 ◼   ► sell it in two years in this little like, you know,

00:26:16 ◼   ► MacBook One sized case for 400 bucks maybe?

00:26:20 ◼   ► I mean like, that could actually get them

00:26:24 ◼   ► a lot of the way there.

00:26:25 ◼   ► and that OS's additional lockdown-ness

00:26:29 ◼   ► and easy management and easy security and everything

00:26:32 ◼   ► would all help in that regard too.

00:26:33 ◼   ► So I think one of the things that made me consider

00:26:38 ◼   ► that comment as possibly interesting

00:26:41 ◼   ► and possibly plausible is that Apple has to be feeling,

00:26:46 ◼   ► they have to be feeling the hurt a little bit

00:26:50 ◼   ► from the massive success of Chromebooks in schools.

00:26:53 ◼   ► They have to be feeling that on some level.

00:26:55 ◼   ► Whether they choose to address it yet is another question,

00:26:56 ◼   ► but I think if they're going to address it,

00:26:59 ◼   ► that hypothetical lockdown R Mac

00:27:01 ◼   ► would be a really nice way to address it,

00:27:03 ◼   ► because obviously they can try pushing iPads,

00:27:05 ◼   ► they have, as much as they want,

00:27:07 ◼   ► and they have gotten decent numbers of iPads

00:27:09 ◼   ► sold into schools, but there's a reason

00:27:11 ◼   ► why those Chromebooks keep selling so well,

00:27:13 ◼   ► and a big reason is price, no question.

00:27:15 ◼   ► And it's, again, it's a question of whether Apple

00:27:18 ◼   ► is willing to or should compete on price to that level.

00:27:22 ◼   ► But also a big reason for that is that a lot of schools

00:27:27 ◼   ► and students do prefer working on some kind of

00:27:30 ◼   ► laptop shaped device with a laptop keyboard.

00:27:32 ◼   ► Yes, you can put keyboards on iPads,

00:27:36 ◼   ► but we all know from trying that,

00:27:39 ◼   ► that's not really what they're great at,

00:27:40 ◼   ► that's not really what they're designed for,

00:27:42 ◼   ► and if you're trying to manage a fleet of student devices,

00:27:45 ◼   ► the last thing you want is detachable, expensive accessories.

00:27:49 ◼   ► You want it to be one integrated unit

00:27:50 ◼   ► that you can manage as one integrated unit.

00:27:52 ◼   ► So that actually might be part of their strategy

00:27:56 ◼   ► to combat Chromebooks long term,

00:27:58 ◼   ► and if it isn't, I think it might be worth considering

00:28:00 ◼   ► whether it should.

00:28:01 ◼   ► - So this is yet another time we have to bring up

00:28:03 ◼   ► that one of the big advantages Google has

00:28:05 ◼   ► in terms of management is the fact

00:28:06 ◼   ► they do do everything server-side,

00:28:08 ◼   ► and that is Google's strength,

00:28:09 ◼   ► and historically has not been Apple's strength

00:28:11 ◼   ► to have very robust cloud services

00:28:15 ◼   ► where the source of truth is in the cloud,

00:28:17 ◼   ► not on the device.

00:28:20 ◼   ► in the same way, you know, it doesn't necessarily have to be web-based tools like Google Docs and

00:28:23 ◼   ► stuff, which by the way is in extensive use in schools. I'm using it at work now too, and

00:28:30 ◼   ► we've mentioned this before, we use it for our show notes. It's to the point where,

00:28:36 ◼   ► like, I'm waiting for it to unseat Microsoft Word in the entire corporate world. I know that's going

00:28:41 ◼   ► to take so freaking long. But among certain wings of large corporations, it is possible to

00:28:47 ◼   ► Displaced word and everybody is happier and seeing my kids do everything in Google Docs is like Marco brought up

00:28:51 ◼   ► If you're if you grow up doing that you just think oh word processing equals Google Docs and how does Google Docs work?

00:28:56 ◼   ► You need servers the service need to be reliable. They need to be fast. They need to be always up. They need to not lose data

00:29:02 ◼   ► Google is really good at that

00:29:05 ◼   ► Apple is

00:29:07 ◼   ► Not as good at it

00:29:08 ◼   ► So that's one weakness Apple has in doing that and the other reason I think Apple should be thinking about this market where Chromebooks are

00:29:14 ◼   ► giving them a run for their money with iPads and everything is like it is a

00:29:19 ◼   ► demanding environment. Public schools with a bunch of kids messing with your

00:29:25 ◼   ► stuff is demanding physically speaking. It's demanding from a management

00:29:29 ◼   ► perspective because you have a lot of devices. You have people managing them

00:29:32 ◼   ► who perhaps are not the most technically savvy because that's not their job. Like

00:29:36 ◼   ► teachers have to deal with them and they don't they want to be teachers. They

00:29:39 ◼   ► don't want to be like IT managers, right? So the easier it is to manage the better.

00:29:43 ◼   ► But, like, making a device that is successful in that environment, like that is very hostile,

00:29:50 ◼   ► much more hostile than corporate IT, much more hostile than an individual user's house

00:29:55 ◼   ► who buys the thing and posts an unboxing video and treats it like a little perfect baby,

00:29:58 ◼   ► right?

00:29:59 ◼   ► Schools are brutal.

00:30:00 ◼   ► But in the same way that, you know, OXO GoodGrips, a company that I believe, I don't know if

00:30:06 ◼   ► it was founded on this or was aimed at this originally, but the story I've always heard,

00:30:10 ◼   ► I like it, so I'll keep repeating it as if it's true, was that they were making tools

00:30:14 ◼   ► for people with arthritis and other sort of motor difficulties with their hands.

00:30:19 ◼   ► If you have trouble operating a regular can opener, try the Oxo can opener because I know

00:30:23 ◼   ► you can't, like, it hurts to turn a regular can opener, but here we have one that has

00:30:28 ◼   ► very grippy material and a big rounded turny thing with lots of leverage and so, you know,

00:30:35 ◼   ► and it turns out, good old turns out, everyone loves it.

00:30:38 ◼   ► If you make tools that are easy for people to use who have hand mobility or strength

00:30:44 ◼   ► problems, people who do not have hand mobility or strength problems also love them because

00:30:50 ◼   ► they're just better tools.

00:30:51 ◼   ► They give you better mechanical advantage.

00:30:53 ◼   ► They work more smoothly.

00:30:55 ◼   ► So if you make something for an environment that is demanding in some way, "Oh, our customers

00:31:00 ◼   ► only have this amount of hand strength and the average adult has five times that," can

00:31:06 ◼   ► you make a can opener that works for them?

00:31:08 ◼   ► If you successfully do that, you haven't made, "Oh, this is only a niche device for people

00:31:13 ◼   ► who have mobility problems with their hands."

00:31:15 ◼   ► No, what you've made is an amazing can opener.

00:31:17 ◼   ► So if you make a laptop that can survive and continue functioning and be manageable by

00:31:23 ◼   ► teachers and students in a public school environment, you just happen to have also made an awesome

00:31:27 ◼   ► laptop that you can put into the guy's house who's going to treat it like a perfect little

00:31:31 ◼   ► baby and always do everything nice with it and read articles about it and do all that

00:31:34 ◼   ► stuff.

00:31:35 ◼   ► They'll love it too, because guess what?

00:31:37 ◼   ► just easier to manage, it works more often, there are fewer problems. That is just a better

00:31:42 ◼   ► product all around. So I would never want to see Apple surrender this market if only

00:31:47 ◼   ► because it acts as a crucible for testing the durability of every part of your product,

00:31:55 ◼   ► from the hardware to the software to the management, the whole nine yards.

00:31:58 ◼   ► Let's talk about N.O. Rowling who writes, "I bought my first MacBook Pro for work last

00:32:03 ◼   ► year since my job is web development and thus the target is obviously Linux, I chose to

00:32:09 ◼   ► go case sensitive to avoid trouble as much as possible.

00:32:14 ◼   ► I've been burned by Windows Case Ignorant File System in the past.

00:32:17 ◼   ► Given how long OS X and HFS+ have been around, I expected that most modern software would

00:32:24 ◼   ► run on either setup, but now I've learned that both Steam and Adobe Creative Suite will

00:32:30 ◼   ► not run on my machine unless I reformat it.

00:32:32 ◼   ► Oops.

00:32:33 ◼   ► to hear your opinion on the state of this and who you think is to blame for this mess.

00:32:38 ◼   ► John, as our file system expert.

00:32:41 ◼   ► Humans are to blame, as always. So yeah, the case sensitive versus insensitive thing. HFS+

00:32:46 ◼   ► and HFS before it, and MFS, I believe, were all case insensitive in that you could not

00:32:55 ◼   ► have two files whose file names differed only in capitalization. And there's a whole bunch

00:32:58 ◼   ► of Unicode normalization rules revolving around that, but let's just talk about ASCII, capital

00:33:04 ◼   ► and lowercase letters. If you had a file named myfile, all caps, you could not have a file right

00:33:09 ◼   ► next to it in the same directory called myfile, all lowercase, because guess what? HFS+ does not

00:33:13 ◼   ► distinguish between those. Which is mostly a human factors choice on the original Mac, because

00:33:20 ◼   ► regular people don't consider those different things, like find me the file named Jerry. No,

00:33:26 ◼   ► No, not the one with the lowercase J, the one with the capital J.

00:33:30 ◼   ► Being able to, not having files that differ only in case, because people will type the

00:33:34 ◼   ► wrong file names in and think they didn't save it and stuff like that, so it is an important

00:33:37 ◼   ► user interface thing, but they implement it down at the file system level, which means

00:33:41 ◼   ► not only does the interface present in that way, but you physically can't save files that

00:33:47 ◼   ► differ only in case.

00:33:48 ◼   ► Now why would anybody want files that differ only in case?

00:33:50 ◼   ► Sometimes case contains information.

00:33:52 ◼   ► If you have acronyms or abbreviations or other type of things in your file names and they

00:33:58 ◼   ► happen to spell out words like A-N-D or something and you happen to have another file name that

00:34:02 ◼   ► has the lowercase because they wanted the thing and, you know, case does have meaning

00:34:06 ◼   ► in some cases.

00:34:07 ◼   ► But the most important reason that case insensitivity, the historic multi-decade case insensitivity

00:34:13 ◼   ► on the Mac is potentially a problem is if you ever change your mind, if you ever say,

00:34:20 ◼   ► Actually, we've decided for the future, since people don't really deal with the file system

00:34:22 ◼   ► that much anyway, say on your phones or on your iOS devices where people don't see the

00:34:26 ◼   ► file system, we don't need that extra complexity.

00:34:30 ◼   ► Because it is an extra complexity.

00:34:31 ◼   ► Every time you look up a file, you have to see if there's any variation on that file's

00:34:35 ◼   ► case and the same thing for writing a file.

00:34:36 ◼   ► You have to make sure no files exist with any variation of that file name's case.

00:34:41 ◼   ► And practically speaking, lots of software made for other platforms, like say Unix software

00:34:46 ◼   ► open source software, has files that are part of either the source code or the actual operation

00:34:50 ◼   ► of the binaries in practice that differ only in case.

00:34:56 ◼   ► And if you can't store them on the file system, you can't even like untar the source of an

00:35:02 ◼   ► open source tool and build it because it's got .lkc files and .C files because someone

00:35:06 ◼   ► thought .C was great for C++ many decades ago.

00:35:11 ◼   ► it will either puke or just randomly overwrite files and you will have things that don't build.

00:35:16 ◼   ► There's plenty of open source software that has plain old source files,

00:35:21 ◼   ► foo.c and capital F-O-O dot c in the same directory. This happens, it's a thing,

00:35:27 ◼   ► and if you can't deal with it at all then you have to make like disk images or virtual machines

00:35:31 ◼   ► and all sorts of stuff like that. But the real whammy is for decades and decades the Mac has

00:35:38 ◼   ► has been like this, and human beings have been writing software for the Mac, and those

00:35:44 ◼   ► human beings have put file paths in their software. They've written code that reads

00:35:50 ◼   ► things from the file system based on their path. And a surprising amount of time, those

00:35:56 ◼   ► file paths that the software is trying to read from the file system do not match the

00:36:01 ◼   ► case of the files on disk. And nobody notices when you run it on a case-sensitive file system,

00:36:06 ◼   ► Because if you were looking for, you know, file.conf where the F is capital, but on the

00:36:14 ◼   ► file system it's actually lowercase, your program works fine, because it says "Open

00:36:17 ◼   ► me file.conf with a capital F" and it says "I'm here, I found it" and it opens lowercase

00:36:21 ◼   ► file.conf and you're good to go because that's how all the APIs work.

00:36:25 ◼   ► You try to run that in a case-sensitive file system and the wheels fall off the wagon.

00:36:29 ◼   ► All of a sudden the thing doesn't work, can't even start up, you're using it, it does weird

00:36:33 ◼   ► stuff and it doesn't function correctly. And Steam, which isn't even that long on the Mac

00:36:38 ◼   ► platform, I guess it's been a few years now, but Adobe Creative Suite has deep roots. Lots

00:36:43 ◼   ► of complicated software inevitably has some part that either assumes case insensitivity

00:36:50 ◼   ► as like a foundational assumption of some section of the code, or accidentally assumes

00:36:53 ◼   ► case insensitivity by looking up files based on paths that don't match the actual case

00:36:58 ◼   ► of the files on disk.

00:37:00 ◼   ► Or, you know, more complicated variations of that

00:37:03 ◼   ► where one part of the thing will write a file

00:37:05 ◼   ► and the other thing will read it,

00:37:06 ◼   ► but they won't agree on the case.

00:37:07 ◼   ► And it's just, there are so many places

00:37:08 ◼   ► where things can go wrong.

00:37:09 ◼   ► And this is where the conventional wisdom goes

00:37:11 ◼   ► that if you format your Mac as case sensitive,

00:37:14 ◼   ► be prepared for a whole bunch of your software not to work

00:37:17 ◼   ► and for your only alternative to be to reformat

00:37:19 ◼   ► as case insensitive to get the stuff working.

00:37:20 ◼   ► And you might say,

00:37:21 ◼   ► "Well, why doesn't everybody just fix their software?"

00:37:23 ◼   ► Well, it's a chicken egg thing.

00:37:24 ◼   ► They don't need to fix their software

00:37:25 ◼   ► 'cause nobody runs case sensitive HFS+ on their Macs.

00:37:28 ◼   ► And no one runs case sensitive HFS+ on their Macs

00:37:31 ◼   ► because none of their software works.

00:37:33 ◼   ► And so they're in an impasse there.

00:37:35 ◼   ► iOS devices have been case sensitive from day one,

00:37:37 ◼   ► which is a wise choice.

00:37:38 ◼   ► So there are not a bunch of iOS developers out there

00:37:41 ◼   ► writing applications that expect to read files

00:37:43 ◼   ► with paths that don't match the case.

00:37:44 ◼   ► 'Cause guess what?

00:37:45 ◼   ► They wouldn't work.

00:37:46 ◼   ► So that's great.

00:37:47 ◼   ► But with APFS, I'm not even sure

00:37:50 ◼   ► what they're gonna end up doing on the Mac

00:37:51 ◼   ► 'cause the APFS is not officially released on the Mac.

00:37:54 ◼   ► It's only on iOS.

00:37:56 ◼   ► But one way to solve the chicken and egg thing is say,

00:37:58 ◼   ► hey, guess what?

00:37:59 ◼   ► APFS is case sensitive only.

00:38:00 ◼   ► I can't imagine them doing that because as we can see,

00:38:03 ◼   ► Adobe Creative Steam wouldn't work

00:38:05 ◼   ► and those are not obscure applications.

00:38:06 ◼   ► So yeah.

00:38:09 ◼   ► So sorry, bad news.

00:38:10 ◼   ► You probably have to reformat your disk as case insensitive

00:38:13 ◼   ► to get your software to work again.

00:38:15 ◼   ► Inscrutable humans got you again.

00:38:17 ◼   ► (laughing)

00:38:20 ◼   ► Do you know, by the way, I guess Marco,

00:38:22 ◼   ► I'll say, does Marco have any Mac apps?

00:38:25 ◼   ► It's like, it's a good thing if you write an application

00:38:28 ◼   ► or any kind of software for the Mac to find out,

00:38:30 ◼   ► do you have these kind of problems in your software?

00:38:31 ◼   ► 'Cause you'll never know it if you just run a regular Mac

00:38:33 ◼   ► all the time, but you'll be surprised, they're lurking.

00:38:35 ◼   ► I probably have them in my stupid blog system

00:38:37 ◼   ► that I used to publish for my blog once a year.

00:38:39 ◼   ► 'Cause I've only ever run it

00:38:41 ◼   ► from a case insensitive file system.

00:38:42 ◼   ► There's probably in that tiny little piece of code,

00:38:44 ◼   ► someplace where I do something stupid

00:38:46 ◼   ► about case with file paths.

00:38:47 ◼   ► - We're sponsored this week by Eero.

00:38:50 ◼   ► Go to eero.com and use promo code ATP at checkout

00:38:54 ◼   ► to get free extra-added shipping.

00:38:56 ◼   ► Wi-Fi in our houses just isn't good enough.

00:38:59 ◼   ► When you only have one router,

00:39:01 ◼   ► which is the model we've been sold on forever,

00:39:03 ◼   ► no matter how many antennas you put on it,

00:39:04 ◼   ► no matter how high-powered it is,

00:39:06 ◼   ► there's gonna be dead spots and weak spots

00:39:08 ◼   ► in most houses or apartments.

00:39:10 ◼   ► We've all been there.

00:39:11 ◼   ► We all have the one room where the Wi-Fi

00:39:13 ◼   ► only gets one little arc and it doesn't really work

00:39:15 ◼   ► unless you hold the iPad upside down.

00:39:16 ◼   ► I've actually done that.

00:39:18 ◼   ► And this just is not a very good system for today

00:39:20 ◼   ► when we have so many Wi-Fi devices

00:39:22 ◼   ► that depend on a solid connection in our homes.

00:39:25 ◼   ► You know, what year is this?

00:39:26 ◼   ► We should have reliable WiFi in our entire houses.

00:39:29 ◼   ► And eero lets us do that by having multiple access points

00:39:32 ◼   ► work together from different points in the house

00:39:34 ◼   ► to just blanket your entire place

00:39:37 ◼   ► in solid, strong, fast WiFi coverage.

00:39:40 ◼   ► The way they do this, so they sell the little eero units.

00:39:42 ◼   ► They're kind of like the size of an Apple TV.

00:39:44 ◼   ► They're little nicely designed little things.

00:39:46 ◼   ► And you plug one of them in the same way

00:39:48 ◼   ► you'd plug in any other WiFi.

00:39:49 ◼   ► You plug it into your internet connection,

00:39:50 ◼   ► so you know, wherever that is.

00:39:52 ◼   ► and then you can plug the other ones in

00:39:53 ◼   ► anywhere else in your house,

00:39:54 ◼   ► and they talk to each other over a separate mesh network

00:39:57 ◼   ► that they make,

00:39:58 ◼   ► and then they blanket your home in pure high-speed Wi-Fi

00:40:01 ◼   ► from each one,

00:40:02 ◼   ► and they all work together to form one giant network.

00:40:05 ◼   ► And it's way faster than traditional repeaters

00:40:07 ◼   ► or anything like that

00:40:08 ◼   ► because of the separate mesh network thing.

00:40:10 ◼   ► Check out the reviews.

00:40:12 ◼   ► You will see for yourself,

00:40:14 ◼   ► and they sent us some too,

00:40:14 ◼   ► and we tried them out,

00:40:15 ◼   ► and we've had similarly great experiences.

00:40:17 ◼   ► Eros are fast,

00:40:19 ◼   ► and they are so easy to set up with their app,

00:40:21 ◼   ► and they have tons of great features.

00:40:23 ◼   ► They have things like parental controls

00:40:25 ◼   ► and all sorts of new features being added

00:40:27 ◼   ► in their very easy to use app all the time.

00:40:30 ◼   ► They've added so many features already.

00:40:31 ◼   ► It's only been out for like a year or something

00:40:32 ◼   ► and they've added so many features already.

00:40:34 ◼   ► It is very highly rated.

00:40:35 ◼   ► It's rated currently 4.4 stars on Amazon

00:40:38 ◼   ► with over 750 reviews.

00:40:40 ◼   ► There's a one year warranty.

00:40:42 ◼   ► There's a return period if you don't like it.

00:40:44 ◼   ► Check it out.

00:40:45 ◼   ► We highly recommend Eero.

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00:40:49 ◼   ► Go to Eero.com, that's E-E-R-O.com,

00:40:52 ◼   ► and use code ATP at checkout to get free F-shotted shipping.

00:40:56 ◼   ► Thank you very much to Eero

00:40:57 ◼   ► for sponsoring our show once again.

00:40:59 ◼   ► - So, Jon, happy birthday to you.

00:41:07 ◼   ► Your birthday was actually, what, a month and a half ago,

00:41:11 ◼   ► but the gods have delivered you

00:41:14 ◼   ► the ultimate birthday present, sort of.

00:41:18 ◼   ► What's going on on Kickstarter these days, Jon?

00:41:22 ◼   ► My favorite Twitter client has been, from the moment I started using Twitter, Twitterific,

00:41:29 ◼   ► which I think was the very first Twitter client.

00:41:32 ◼   ► Certainly it was the first thing I ever used Twitter with.

00:41:34 ◼   ► I did not sign up for Twitter based on their terrible website.

00:41:37 ◼   ► I only signed up for it once Twitterific was out, and I'm like, "All right, this is a good

00:41:41 ◼   ► thing to do."

00:41:42 ◼   ► I mean, if it wasn't truly the first app that used a Twitter API, it was at least the first

00:41:46 ◼   ► app that anyone ever used that used the Twitter API. And it was by far the first app that

00:41:51 ◼   ► mattered.

00:41:52 ◼   ► Yeah. And so it was an iOS app, but before that there was a Mac app. I think the Mac

00:41:58 ◼   ► app came first. Anyway. Yeah. So Twitter clients have had a bumpy road. A couple years back

00:42:04 ◼   ► Twitter decided that it didn't really want third parties to make apps and it started

00:42:07 ◼   ► this whole thing where you can only make apps if you have these special tokens and there's

00:42:10 ◼   ► a limited number of those and some apps were grandfathered in. Oh, and by the way, a bunch

00:42:14 ◼   ► of new features we're rolling out can't be used by third-party clients because we really

00:42:17 ◼   ► don't like you third-party clients and it's made the market for Twitter apps very difficult,

00:42:22 ◼   ► for third-party Twitter apps very difficult.

00:42:25 ◼   ► Twitter for iOS has continued to be updated, nevertheless it's gone through many major

00:42:29 ◼   ► revisions and if you were to go buy it on the App Store today, which I recommend, it

00:42:33 ◼   ► is a great Twitter app.

00:42:35 ◼   ► I've never wavered despite also buying many other Twitter apps and having them installed.

00:42:39 ◼   ► I love Twitter because of its unified timeline where it makes everything that has happened

00:42:43 ◼   ► on Twitter related to the people you follow, a single list sorted by time. Mentions, tweets,

00:42:50 ◼   ► direct messages, your own tweets that go out, just all ordered by time. That's it. You know,

00:42:55 ◼   ► you can view them separately if you want, but I like it to just be one big list. That's

00:42:58 ◼   ► the unified timeline. Anyway, the Mac client, on the other hand, has not been updated in

00:43:02 ◼   ► many, many years because it just hasn't been economically feasible to update it because

00:43:07 ◼   ► the market for third-party Mac Twitter clients is just not sustainable anymore.

00:43:14 ◼   ► The market for third-party iOS Twitter clients is basically barely sustainable because so

00:43:18 ◼   ► many people use the official app and there are still features that you could only do

00:43:22 ◼   ► in the official app.

00:43:23 ◼   ► I hate the official app even though I have it installed.

00:43:25 ◼   ► Oh, it's the worst.

00:43:27 ◼   ► I don't understand how anyone uses it.

00:43:30 ◼   ► It's confusing to me.

00:43:31 ◼   ► People use their Twitter in all sorts of different ways.

00:43:34 ◼   ► So I happen to know some of the people who work at Icon Factory who make Twitterific,

00:43:40 ◼   ► and for many years I have been begging them half-jokingly to fix Twitter for the Mac,

00:43:46 ◼   ► which by the way I continue to use despite the fact that it is slowly crumbling.

00:43:50 ◼   ► Like you know when they added the thing where the tweets can be longer than you would have

00:43:54 ◼   ► expected, and it doesn't count like the mentions or everything towards the, or the URLs or

00:44:00 ◼   ► mentions towards the character count, some change related to the length of tweets. And

00:44:07 ◼   ► if you don't support the new longer tweet thing, what you get from the old version of

00:44:13 ◼   ► the API is a tweet that is truncated and it goes towards the end of the tweet, it just

00:44:18 ◼   ► goes dot, dot, dot, and then has a URL that you can click on to read the whole tweet on

00:44:22 ◼   ► Twitter's website. That's what long tweets look like in Twitter for the Mac, and yet

00:44:26 ◼   ► I still continue to use it.

00:44:28 ◼   ► I can't do so many things from the Mac version of the client that I can do from the iOS one,

00:44:33 ◼   ► but I still continue to use it because I like it, and every other Mac client that I've tried,

00:44:37 ◼   ► I dislike strongly in some way.

00:44:38 ◼   ► So I really wished for Twitter to come back to the Mac, but I understood, like, look,

00:44:44 ◼   ► you can't, you know, if it's not a viable market, it's not a viable market, even though

00:44:48 ◼   ► I offered to pay obscene amounts of money for Twitter for the Mac.

00:44:52 ◼   ► In fact, I believe it was only last week or the week before that you said, "I would

00:44:57 ◼   ► pay $100 for an updated version of Twitterific for the Mac."

00:45:00 ◼   ► I've said that many times, and I may or may not have been saying that because I may or

00:45:04 ◼   ► may not have known about this project ahead of time.

00:45:08 ◼   ► But anyway, now there is a Kickstarter.

00:45:11 ◼   ► The thing that we've joked about for so many years, like, "How much money would it take

00:45:14 ◼   ► to fund the number of developers who need to make this application?"

00:45:18 ◼   ► Let's just do a Kickstarter.

00:45:19 ◼   ► And if enough people want Twitter for the Mac, they will fund this thing and they will

00:45:25 ◼   ► make this application.

00:45:26 ◼   ► Like, it's an easy way to know that, yes, you will have the money to pay for the development

00:45:30 ◼   ► of this project because you get the money upfront-ish in exchange for the application.

00:45:36 ◼   ► So I have backed this Kickstarter.

00:45:39 ◼   ► I'm not going to tell you how much money I pledged, but it was a lot.

00:45:45 ◼   ► The goal is 75,000, but I want you all to ignore that, because the real goal is 100,000,

00:45:51 ◼   ► the so-called stretch goal, because the stretch goal includes all the features that I want,

00:45:56 ◼   ► including fairly essential things like direct messaging.

00:45:58 ◼   ► So I really want this Kickstarter to get to 100,000.

00:46:00 ◼   ► And if it doesn't, it will just be proving what Icon Factory has been saying all along,

00:46:04 ◼   ► is there's just not enough people who want this who are going to pay for it, even though

00:46:09 ◼   ► some of us are paying very much more than $5 for the privilege of having this application.

00:46:15 ◼   ► So you may or may not like using Twitter on the Mac period, because many people just don't

00:46:18 ◼   ► use it on the Mac at all.

00:46:20 ◼   ► Maybe use the website or whatever.

00:46:21 ◼   ► But if you are using an existing Mac Twitter client and don't like it, or it seems like

00:46:28 ◼   ► it hasn't been updated in a while like Twitter for the Mac, or it doesn't work the way you

00:46:32 ◼   ► want it to, this is an opportunity to get a shiny new Twitter client from a company

00:46:39 ◼   ► that really knows how to make Twitter clients.

00:46:44 ◼   ► only as much money as you could possibly afford. So please, please back this. It's up to $35,000

00:46:50 ◼   ► now and it has been open, it's got 28 days to go, and it's $35,000 out of a goal of not

00:46:56 ◼   ► 75, ignore that goal, 100K. Please everybody make this happen because I want this Twitter

00:47:01 ◼   ► client.

00:47:02 ◼   ► But if we don't make it happen, does that mean we will finally break you of your ridiculous

00:47:06 ◼   ► insistence on the unified timeline?

00:47:08 ◼   ► No, I will never, I'm going to use Twitter for the Mac until it doesn't launch anymore.

00:47:13 ◼   ► After that, I'm going to beg my friends at Icon Factory to give me a special build that

00:47:17 ◼   ► does blunch.

00:47:18 ◼   ► No, I'm just giving you a hard time.

00:47:21 ◼   ► I know some of the folks from the Icon Factory, we all do actually, and they're great people,

00:47:25 ◼   ► so definitely check out this Kickstarter and throw them a few dollars if you can because

00:47:30 ◼   ► it would make Jon happy and it would make the folks at Icon Factory happy and they're

00:47:34 ◼   ► good people.

00:47:35 ◼   ► And you get good swag.

00:47:36 ◼   ► They have t-shirts, they have little vinyl Ollie dolls.

00:47:40 ◼   ► Ollie is their little blue Twitter bird.

00:47:43 ◼   ► You should read some of the history, I think, on the Icon Factory website. I don't have

00:47:45 ◼   ► a link to it. The history between Icon Factory and Twitter. Many of the things that you associate

00:47:50 ◼   ► with Twitter were, in fact, invented by Icon Factory. Terminology, iconography, so much.

00:47:55 ◼   ► Icon Factory is, like, practically part of Twitter, only not in the financial sense because

00:48:01 ◼   ► they do not have thousands of employees and bazillions of dollars of investment.

00:48:06 ◼   ► Didn't Hockenberry come up with tweet? Was that him? No, it was his coworker. Is that

00:48:11 ◼   ► right?

00:48:12 ◼   ► - I think so, something like that.

00:48:13 ◼   ► - I forget the details.

00:48:14 ◼   ► - I mean a lot, like a lot.

00:48:15 ◼   ► I believe they were the first ones to actually use a bird

00:48:19 ◼   ► as part of the logo, the word tweet.

00:48:22 ◼   ► They might even have invented @ replies, I don't know.

00:48:24 ◼   ► They did a lot, like a lot of Twitter standard things

00:48:29 ◼   ► and practices and mechanisms and everything

00:48:31 ◼   ► were invented by Icon Factory

00:48:33 ◼   ► or by their developers for their apps.

00:48:37 ◼   ► - And Ollie, the blue Twitter-ific bird

00:48:39 ◼   ► is along with the with Panics transmit truck one of the most ripped off icons on the entire

00:48:45 ◼   ► internet you see it everywhere is like that's just a generic representation of Twitter or

00:48:48 ◼   ► that's Twitter's logo nope nope not not Twitter's logo at all in fact Twitter's logo is worse

00:48:53 ◼   ► than icon factory's logo they should have just paid them to make their logos for them

00:48:56 ◼   ► but they didn't.

00:48:57 ◼   ► Cool well good luck I don't know if I'm if I should wish you good luck John if I should

00:49:03 ◼   ► wish the icon factory good luck I guess a little above.

00:49:05 ◼   ► You should do it either you should pledge money that's what you should do.

00:49:09 ◼   ► Here's why you should all pledge money.

00:49:10 ◼   ► So A, this is great software supported by great people

00:49:13 ◼   ► doing great things.

00:49:15 ◼   ► - Agreed.

00:49:15 ◼   ► - B, Twitter needs more diversity in software

00:49:18 ◼   ► and Twitterific is one of the very few clients

00:49:22 ◼   ► that got grandfathered in with a very large amount

00:49:25 ◼   ► of user tokens and so they actually can,

00:49:28 ◼   ► they're like one of the only companies that can make

00:49:30 ◼   ► a widespread Twitter client.

00:49:33 ◼   ► And C, if this Kickstarter doesn't fund,

00:49:37 ◼   ► John gets to keep all of his money.

00:49:39 ◼   ► And so we want John to have spent a ridiculous amount

00:49:43 ◼   ► of money on his Twitter client.

00:49:44 ◼   ► - So I can say it's like the second most expensive

00:49:46 ◼   ► application on my computer after Photoshop.

00:49:48 ◼   ► - Exactly, exactly.

00:49:50 ◼   ► We want John's copy of Twitterific to be

00:49:54 ◼   ► this ridiculous investment he has made.

00:49:56 ◼   ► And so please everyone go fund this

00:49:58 ◼   ► so that his pledge will go through.

00:50:00 ◼   ► - It really is just all the money that I would have spent

00:50:01 ◼   ► on a new Mac Pro, it's just being funneled into

00:50:03 ◼   ► from his software, Kickstarters.

00:50:06 ◼   ► Oh my goodness.

00:50:07 ◼   ► All right, moving on.

00:50:10 ◼   ► Let's see what do we have here?

00:50:12 ◼   ► Planet of the Apps, oh God.

00:50:14 ◼   ► - Can we start with, before we start talking about this show

00:50:17 ◼   ► can we start with someone,

00:50:19 ◼   ► maybe we have a lawyer in the room,

00:50:21 ◼   ► how can they get away with calling it Planet of the Apps

00:50:23 ◼   ► when it sounds like Planet of the Apes?

00:50:24 ◼   ► Is there any, does it fall under the parody

00:50:28 ◼   ► where it's referencing a thing but in a joking way?

00:50:32 ◼   ► So it's almost like trade dress.

00:50:35 ◼   ► I don't know. I don't know the legal things about this. It just seems weird to me that

00:50:39 ◼   ► they can get away with Planet of the Apes without paying somebody who has the right

00:50:42 ◼   ► to Planet of the Apes. So follow up for next week. Someone tell me what the deal is.

00:50:46 ◼   ► Yeah, I mean three things. Like A, we aren't trademark lawyers. B, they might have paid

00:50:51 ◼   ► someone to license it. And C, they might just not care and just accept if anybody threatens

00:50:56 ◼   ► them then they will just settle it. Because Apple...

00:50:58 ◼   ► There's the luxury of being Apple and sitting on the top of a mountain of cash so high you

00:51:01 ◼   ► you can't even hear the people yelling at you.

00:51:04 ◼   ► - Exactly, like it's probably--

00:51:05 ◼   ► - We will buy the Planet of the Apes franchise

00:51:08 ◼   ► from Universal or whoever the hell owns it,

00:51:10 ◼   ► you know, when we sneeze

00:51:11 ◼   ► and the money falls out of our pockets.

00:51:12 ◼   ► - Yeah, exactly, and it's probably, I mean,

00:51:14 ◼   ► you know, as amateurs here, it does kind of seem

00:51:17 ◼   ► like it might be considered like generic enough

00:51:21 ◼   ► or clear enough parody or satire

00:51:24 ◼   ► that it might not be a clear cut case

00:51:26 ◼   ► of actual infringement.

00:51:28 ◼   ► - Yeah, the humor angle is the strongest one,

00:51:30 ◼   ► but I'm like, it's not that funny.

00:51:32 ◼   ► - No, it's not.

00:51:33 ◼   ► Apple's not good at being funny.

00:51:35 ◼   ► - I was like, how bad does your pun have to be

00:51:37 ◼   ► before it stops being humor?

00:51:40 ◼   ► - I think one thing that,

00:51:42 ◼   ► I don't wanna bash Apple too much about this,

00:51:45 ◼   ► but I do think that one very clear difference

00:51:48 ◼   ► between Apple now versus Apple under Steve

00:51:51 ◼   ► is that Steve was a cool person.

00:51:54 ◼   ► And not in all ways,

00:51:55 ◼   ► and he knew the ways in which he wasn't cool,

00:51:57 ◼   ► and he kinda played off of them.

00:51:59 ◼   ► But he was fundamentally a pretty cool person

00:52:02 ◼   ► to the people who follow Apple and to Apple customers.

00:52:05 ◼   ► And I don't think anybody at Apple now is cool.

00:52:09 ◼   ► At least in the senior leadership.

00:52:11 ◼   ► But I'm not sure they know that.

00:52:13 ◼   ► It actually kind of seems like they don't know that

00:52:15 ◼   ► and are actually under the opposite impression.

00:52:17 ◼   ► - CFED is cool, come on.

00:52:20 ◼   ► What is not cool about CFED? - No, no, no.

00:52:21 ◼   ► CFED is, he is like the dad joke,

00:52:24 ◼   ► but he knows that and he plays that.

00:52:26 ◼   ► So he actually does a pretty good job of managing that.

00:52:29 ◼   ► but he's not much in the public eye.

00:52:32 ◼   ► I mean, I get like, I don't know,

00:52:34 ◼   ► like Tim, I think is profoundly deeply uncool,

00:52:38 ◼   ► but is under the opposite impression.

00:52:41 ◼   ► - Ah.

00:52:42 ◼   ► - He doesn't think he's cool.

00:52:43 ◼   ► - Yeah, I agree.

00:52:44 ◼   ► - He's just, he's comfortable zone skin.

00:52:46 ◼   ► You're thinking of Eddie Q.

00:52:47 ◼   ► Who thinks he's cool?

00:52:48 ◼   ► - Well, no, Eddie's a whole different level.

00:52:51 ◼   ► (laughing)

00:52:52 ◼   ► But yeah, I mean, I wish, like basically Apple today

00:52:58 ◼   ► is run by a bunch of middle-aged white men,

00:53:02 ◼   ► and it seems like that is showing a lot recently,

00:53:07 ◼   ► and it's unfortunate, and that isn't to say

00:53:11 ◼   ► that they can't still make good stuff,

00:53:12 ◼   ► but I think some of their decisions are a little odd

00:53:16 ◼   ► in context, but anyway.

00:53:19 ◼   ► - Well, before we get off the name, though,

00:53:22 ◼   ► just to defend, or the opposite,

00:53:25 ◼   ► to condemn Steve Jobs' coolness,

00:53:27 ◼   ► Remember that he wanted to call the iMac "Mac Man."

00:53:31 ◼   ► We all have bad days.

00:53:32 ◼   ► Remember that.

00:53:33 ◼   ► Talked out of it by advertising executives.

00:53:35 ◼   ► "Mac Man."

00:53:36 ◼   ► I believe my memory is correct in that.

00:53:38 ◼   ► Someone can Google and correct me if I'm screwing it up.

00:53:40 ◼   ► But thank goodness for iMac.

00:53:42 ◼   ► To be fair, that was a long time ago.

00:53:44 ◼   ► I know, but it's just like name and taste.

00:53:47 ◼   ► And Steve wasn't as cool back then.

00:53:50 ◼   ► In the mid '90s, Steve wasn't as cool.

00:53:53 ◼   ► 1998, iMac.

00:53:55 ◼   ► (laughs)

00:53:57 ◼   ► Anyway, Mac man.

00:53:58 ◼   ► All right, so there was a trailer for Apple,

00:54:02 ◼   ► well really I guess Apple Music's TV show.

00:54:05 ◼   ► So the Apple Music TV show,

00:54:07 ◼   ► I don't know, it's a little weird.

00:54:08 ◼   ► - It's like music television.

00:54:09 ◼   ► - Yeah, I see what you did there.

00:54:11 ◼   ► So it's called Planet of the Apps.

00:54:14 ◼   ► I only saw the trailer once,

00:54:15 ◼   ► it's like two and a half minutes.

00:54:17 ◼   ► So at this point, if you're listening to the show,

00:54:19 ◼   ► feel free to pause and watch it.

00:54:20 ◼   ► So I have mixed feelings about this.

00:54:24 ◼   ► It is clearly, unequivocally not a show meant for the three of us.

00:54:30 ◼   ► And that's okay.

00:54:31 ◼   ► Like, in and of itself, that's not a bad thing.

00:54:34 ◼   ► The idea is, if I understand this right, a bunch of app developers or potential app developers

00:54:41 ◼   ► come in and do an escalator pitch.

00:54:44 ◼   ► So they are on an escalator, and as the escalator is moving down, they have like 60 seconds

00:54:50 ◼   ► to make a pitch to will.i.am, Gwyneth Paltrow, Jessica Alba, and Gary Vaynerchuk, who I guess

00:54:57 ◼   ► at that point get to choose if they want to tutor any of these teams, and then I guess

00:55:03 ◼   ► there's a competition at the end. And if you win, among other things, you get special placement

00:55:08 ◼   ► in the app store, which most people would probably give an appendage to get.

00:55:12 ◼   ► - Wait, can I first start out with the escalator pitch thing?

00:55:17 ◼   ► - Yeah.

00:55:19 ◼   ► - As a brief diversion here?

00:55:20 ◼   ► Okay, so I have a question.

00:55:21 ◼   ► Now obviously, I have never pitched to a VC.

00:55:24 ◼   ► I've been around VCs, I've been in board meetings with VCs,

00:55:26 ◼   ► I've interacted with a lot of VCs,

00:55:28 ◼   ► but I've never actually pitched to one.

00:55:29 ◼   ► That was always done by David

00:55:31 ◼   ► and other people who were around me.

00:55:33 ◼   ► That being said, I'm familiar with the concept

00:55:37 ◼   ► of the elevator pitch, where the idea is,

00:55:39 ◼   ► you're in an elevator with a VC and you only have,

00:55:41 ◼   ► until you only have the elevator ride

00:55:43 ◼   ► to pitch them on your idea,

00:55:44 ◼   ► and then you gotta convince them

00:55:45 ◼   ► in this short amount of time

00:55:46 ◼   ► and it's supposed to be like a minute

00:55:47 ◼   ► or something like that.

00:55:49 ◼   ► However, how did this come about?

00:55:50 ◼   ► Because Silicon Valley has very few tall buildings.

00:55:54 ◼   ► - That's an interesting point.

00:55:56 ◼   ► - There aren't that many elevators there to begin with,

00:55:58 ◼   ► and the ones that are there

00:55:59 ◼   ► are probably going over like three floors.

00:56:01 ◼   ► So the elevator ride--

00:56:02 ◼   ► - Yeah, but they are lazy people,

00:56:03 ◼   ► and they have elevators in two-story buildings.

00:56:05 ◼   ► - But still, that's not like a one-minute pitch,

00:56:07 ◼   ► it's like an eight-second pitch.

00:56:09 ◼   ► Like, where did this idea come about?

00:56:12 ◼   ► Maybe in New York, taller buildings.

00:56:14 ◼   ► But Silicon Valley money has always been West Coast VCs.

00:56:17 ◼   ► There are very, very few New York VCs that actually fund Silicon Valley or tech projects.

00:56:22 ◼   ► I think elevator pitch predates Silicon Valley, but going back to Steve Jobs again, remember

00:56:26 ◼   ► the story about being trapped in an elevator with Steve Jobs and he has enough time to

00:56:29 ◼   ► fire you in there, so for you to say the wrong thing and for him to decide that you're fired.

00:56:34 ◼   ► He was remarkably efficient.

00:56:35 ◼   ► Wow.

00:56:36 ◼   ► I think elevator pitch predates Silicon Valley, but if not like it's metaphorical more than it is actual

00:56:43 ◼   ► But you but you got to the heart of it

00:56:44 ◼   ► The idea is that if you have to sum up your idea in a short amount of time

00:56:48 ◼   ► You should be able to say something that's compelling instead of like just rambling on for 20 minutes and people not knowing what you're selling

00:56:53 ◼   ► You need to have an elevator pitch and people in the in the chat room are like don't you mean?

00:56:57 ◼   ► When we said escalator pitch, did you misspeak? Did you mean elevator pitch? No, it's like Planet of the Apps

00:57:04 ◼   ► Get it apps instead of apes

00:57:06 ◼   ► Elevator pitch, but you see what we did there as someone who we all know would say they took it and they turned it

00:57:13 ◼   ► It's not an elevator pitch

00:57:15 ◼   ► It's an escalator picture makes even less sense because were you to a cost somebody on an escalator?

00:57:20 ◼   ► That would be super weird because you wouldn't even be facing them

00:57:22 ◼   ► You'd be there above them or below them and second thing is an escalator ride

00:57:26 ◼   ► It's even less time than an elevator ride

00:57:28 ◼   ► so it is it is ill-conceived in every possible way except for one and that one way is

00:57:34 ◼   ► Is that an idea that fits in with a reality show? Answer, yes.

00:57:37 ◼   ► Well, and it's easier to film an escalator moving towards the host,

00:57:41 ◼   ► then it, or the VCs, whatever,

00:57:44 ◼   ► than it is an elevator moving up from the basement.

00:57:47 ◼   ► And I guess the four, like, sponsors, hosts, whatever,

00:57:51 ◼   ► are looking at a video feed until they arrive,

00:57:54 ◼   ► until the participants arrive. Like, it's just weird.

00:57:56 ◼   ► Anyway, the name elevator pitch reflects the idea

00:57:59 ◼   ► that it should be possible to deliver the summary

00:58:01 ◼   ► in the time span of an elevator ride,

00:58:03 ◼   ► or approximately 30 seconds to two minutes, and is widely credited to Eileen Rosenzweig

00:58:08 ◼   ► and Michael Caruso while he was an editor for Vanity Fair for its origins. So presumably this

00:58:15 ◼   ► well predates Silicon Valley. So believe it or not, Silicon Valley, the world did not always

00:58:20 ◼   ► revolve around you, truth be told. So yeah, so this show, so I don't intrinsically have anything

00:58:27 ◼   ► against reality shows. In fact, I watched some truly and utterly atrociously

00:58:33 ◼   ► terrible reality shows. Not often competitions, but be that as it may, I

00:58:36 ◼   ► have watched seasons of American Idol in the past. So I have seen my fair share of

00:58:42 ◼   ► reality shows. I've seen The Voice many times. I have one reality show friend.

00:58:46 ◼   ► Yeah, right, exactly. This show does not speak to me at all, and I find it

00:58:53 ◼   ► to be fairly preposterous, but I don't necessarily think that's a bad thing because I don't think

00:59:00 ◼   ► this show is really for me. Because it's too—I know too much about how the sausage is made,

00:59:07 ◼   ► and this is not a show about how the sausage is made, despite how they're pitching it.

00:59:10 ◼   ► It's a show about making sausage-making glamorous, and my, have I killed this analogy, but be

00:59:16 ◼   ► that as it may.

00:59:17 ◼   ► Now I don't like the sausage anymore. Thanks a lot.

00:59:19 ◼   ► Yeah, right? So, I mean, I can't watch it, I presume, because I do not pay for Apple

00:59:26 ◼   ► Music. I never have. I used it for the free trial and then never paid for it. I would

00:59:32 ◼   ► probably watch it if I could for an episode or two, just to see what I thought. I don't

00:59:38 ◼   ► expect I would like it, and I don't think that's a problem. Marco, what do you think?

00:59:43 ◼   ► - I mean, obviously I've had similar reactions

00:59:47 ◼   ► to most programmers looking at this,

00:59:49 ◼   ► of just like, wow, this kinda looks awful from the trailer.

00:59:54 ◼   ► It is very clear that it's really meant

00:59:56 ◼   ► as a rip-off of Shark Tank,

00:59:58 ◼   ► and whatever the original version of Shark Tank

00:59:59 ◼   ► was called somewhere else, probably in Europe,

01:00:01 ◼   ► 'cause we steal all their TV and rename it,

01:00:02 ◼   ► and everyone thinks we invented it.

01:00:04 ◼   ► But it might be an entertaining show.

01:00:07 ◼   ► What was that, not Freaks and Geeks, Beauty and the Geek?

01:00:13 ◼   ► like it was like this horrible dating reality show.

01:00:16 ◼   ► - Oh, I think I saw that and it was delightful.

01:00:18 ◼   ► It was terrible, but it was delightful.

01:00:20 ◼   ► - Yeah, and like as a geek watching that,

01:00:23 ◼   ► you saw all the ridiculous holes in the show,

01:00:26 ◼   ► but it was still fun to watch

01:00:28 ◼   ► as like a fun garbage TV show.

01:00:31 ◼   ► And this could probably be that too

01:00:32 ◼   ► for anybody who is remotely familiar

01:00:35 ◼   ► with software development and building apps

01:00:38 ◼   ► and building businesses.

01:00:39 ◼   ► This might be that kind of thing too.

01:00:40 ◼   ► It might be a fun garbage watch.

01:00:42 ◼   ► It's fine, you know.

01:00:43 ◼   ► I think a lot of people are reading a lot into this.

01:00:45 ◼   ► I wouldn't read much into this.

01:00:48 ◼   ► There's a lot of arguments against it

01:00:50 ◼   ► that Apple maybe shouldn't be doing this

01:00:51 ◼   ► or that it's going to cast app development in a bad light

01:00:54 ◼   ► or it's gonna distort people's view on apps

01:00:57 ◼   ► and I think most of those things are both true

01:01:01 ◼   ► on some level but not a big deal in reality

01:01:04 ◼   ► in all likelihood.

01:01:05 ◼   ► Like they're not gonna be enough of an effect

01:01:07 ◼   ► on anything to really matter because chances are

01:01:09 ◼   ► this is going to go not very far.

01:01:12 ◼   ► It's gonna be watched by not that many people

01:01:14 ◼   ► and it's gonna make not that big of a cultural impact

01:01:16 ◼   ► of any sort.

01:01:18 ◼   ► So it's probably just gonna be fun garbage TV

01:01:20 ◼   ► for some people to watch.

01:01:21 ◼   ► I think it's weird that it's in the music app everywhere

01:01:23 ◼   ► and it's only on Apple Music.

01:01:25 ◼   ► A lot of people are gonna have trouble ever even knowing

01:01:27 ◼   ► it exists as a result.

01:01:28 ◼   ► Those people who do know it exists

01:01:29 ◼   ► are gonna have trouble finding it.

01:01:31 ◼   ► So that's all going to hurt viewership probably.

01:01:34 ◼   ► But anyway, the actual show itself,

01:01:38 ◼   ► It's a garbage reality TV show.

01:01:41 ◼   ► The hosts of it have, I think, limited knowledge

01:01:46 ◼   ► about the reality of app building.

01:01:49 ◼   ► Gary Vaynerchuk I like a lot.

01:01:51 ◼   ► I think he really, he is the person on the show

01:01:55 ◼   ► that I'm most interested to see.

01:01:57 ◼   ► I followed his work back in the day.

01:01:59 ◼   ► I met him a couple times, he's super nice.

01:02:01 ◼   ► He is the real deal, he knows what he's talking about.

01:02:04 ◼   ► Not necessarily in app development as far as I know,

01:02:08 ◼   ► but he's more of a business consultant.

01:02:10 ◼   ► But that's, what I wanted to get to though is that

01:02:13 ◼   ► that's kind of more what the show is about.

01:02:16 ◼   ► It's called Planet of the Apps and it's focused on apps

01:02:19 ◼   ► 'cause Apple's funding it and making it and promoting it

01:02:23 ◼   ► 'cause Apple wants it to be all about them

01:02:24 ◼   ► and the world that they think they created.

01:02:26 ◼   ► So of course they're focusing the marketing

01:02:28 ◼   ► and the naming and everything else on apps.

01:02:30 ◼   ► And all the app developers are saying,

01:02:32 ◼   ► this is crazy 'cause this isn't how apps are made,

01:02:35 ◼   ► but the show really isn't about apps.

01:02:38 ◼   ► It's like if the show was called Planet of the Websites.

01:02:42 ◼   ► And you know, it's like the website is like

01:02:45 ◼   ► an interface to the business.

01:02:47 ◼   ► And you don't go around saying,

01:02:50 ◼   ► hey, I'm making a new website.

01:02:52 ◼   ► Like, no.

01:02:53 ◼   ► - You did in 1993, let me tell ya.

01:02:56 ◼   ► - Well, yeah, but the point is like,

01:02:59 ◼   ► for the types of things that most people launch today

01:03:02 ◼   ► that would be entertaining to watch at all,

01:03:04 ◼   ► No one is gonna watch a show about you making

01:03:07 ◼   ► a bespoke notes taking app or something like that.

01:03:10 ◼   ► They're gonna watch a show that's kinda like Shark Tank

01:03:13 ◼   ► or America's Got Talent or stuff like that.

01:03:15 ◼   ► That's what people actually wanna watch

01:03:17 ◼   ► these garbage reality shows for.

01:03:18 ◼   ► And so they wanna hear the big business idea.

01:03:22 ◼   ► 'Cause this is a show, I made a tweet about it,

01:03:24 ◼   ► this is kinda like a show for idea people,

01:03:26 ◼   ► those people who always accost app developers

01:03:28 ◼   ► at gatherings and stuff, and like,

01:03:30 ◼   ► I have this great idea for an app.

01:03:32 ◼   ► Will you not tell anybody?

01:03:34 ◼   ► you can't steal it, you gotta go 50/50 with me,

01:03:36 ◼   ► I'll be the idea guy, you make the app, okay,

01:03:39 ◼   ► here's my idea, and they tell you some ridiculous idea

01:03:42 ◼   ► that is usually impossible and/or terrible,

01:03:46 ◼   ► this show is for those people to watch

01:03:49 ◼   ► kind of like aspirationally, 'cause they think

01:03:51 ◼   ► that could be them someday, that's who this is actually for,

01:03:53 ◼   ► or people like us who just want garbage TV

01:03:55 ◼   ► to watch sometimes.

01:03:56 ◼   ► But the point is, this is not going to reflect

01:04:00 ◼   ► what it's like to be an indie app developer,

01:04:02 ◼   ► because not only do people not really wanna watch that,

01:04:06 ◼   ► but most app development isn't in the app developers.

01:04:09 ◼   ► Most app development is in-house employees

01:04:13 ◼   ► or contractors for bigger businesses,

01:04:16 ◼   ► where the app is not-- - Right.

01:04:17 ◼   ► - Exactly, the app itself is not the business.

01:04:21 ◼   ► The app is just an interface to the business,

01:04:23 ◼   ► in the same way that 10 years ago,

01:04:25 ◼   ► the website was the interface to most businesses

01:04:28 ◼   ► that were made in our industry, right?

01:04:30 ◼   ► So we want this to be some other thing,

01:04:33 ◼   ► like people like us who are complaining,

01:04:35 ◼   ► we want it to be this beautiful story

01:04:37 ◼   ► about app developers and it's just not gonna be that.

01:04:41 ◼   ► It's gonna be the exact same thing

01:04:44 ◼   ► that would have been 10, 12 years ago,

01:04:48 ◼   ► people pitching VCs about ideas that were based on web apps

01:04:51 ◼   ► and web services and social networks.

01:04:53 ◼   ► It's gonna just be that,

01:04:57 ◼   ► but where the interface to it happens to be an app

01:05:00 ◼   ► in the app store.

01:05:02 ◼   ► It's not gonna be great, you know, academically.

01:05:05 ◼   ► It's not gonna be a high quality TV,

01:05:07 ◼   ► but I don't think it's going to meaningfully impact

01:05:10 ◼   ► the app business or people's perception of it

01:05:14 ◼   ► for lots of reasons, not least of which,

01:05:15 ◼   ► I don't think many people watch it,

01:05:17 ◼   ► but also, just as I said,

01:05:18 ◼   ► I don't think it really has much bearing

01:05:21 ◼   ► on what most of us actually do,

01:05:23 ◼   ► but I also think it doesn't really purport to,

01:05:25 ◼   ► because what most of us really do,

01:05:27 ◼   ► or what we think we wanna do with indie app development,

01:05:30 ◼   ► is such a very, very tiny sliver

01:05:31 ◼   ► of the world of app development as a whole.

01:05:35 ◼   ► - Thinking back to when we first talked about this,

01:05:37 ◼   ► and we had this, you know,

01:05:38 ◼   ► there was so little information like Apple's making a show

01:05:41 ◼   ► about app development, something, something,

01:05:43 ◼   ► and then a few celebrity names attached to it.

01:05:45 ◼   ► And we had that brief moment where we could talk

01:05:49 ◼   ► about the possibility of this being a show

01:05:52 ◼   ► that is actually about app development,

01:05:53 ◼   ► and I think at the time we said,

01:05:54 ◼   ► but they can't make that interesting

01:05:56 ◼   ► 'cause no one wants to see someone sitting there encoding.

01:05:57 ◼   ► Like that's not gonna be on the show, right?

01:05:59 ◼   ► But still, we were entertaining the idea

01:06:03 ◼   ► of a show about app development,

01:06:04 ◼   ► but of course, like when the show comes out,

01:06:06 ◼   ► it's not about app development, as Marco pointed out.

01:06:08 ◼   ► It is basically like a subset of Shark Tank.

01:06:11 ◼   ► Imagine Shark Tank, except the only thing you can pitch

01:06:14 ◼   ► are businesses that are represented by an application.

01:06:18 ◼   ► - You're making your own bad pitch.

01:06:20 ◼   ► - Right, well that's what it is.

01:06:21 ◼   ► - Okay, I have this great idea for a show.

01:06:23 ◼   ► Are you ready?

01:06:24 ◼   ► I'll be the idea guy, you make the entire show, okay?

01:06:26 ◼   ► It's like Shark Tank, but for apps.

01:06:28 ◼   ► - Yeah, but only apps.

01:06:30 ◼   ► Like if your business isn't like,

01:06:33 ◼   ► like Instagram would be a business represented by an app,

01:06:36 ◼   ► but all sorts of things would be like,

01:06:37 ◼   ► is the app the sort of standard bearer for your business?

01:06:40 ◼   ► Is that how people deal with your business?

01:06:42 ◼   ► Is it through an app?

01:06:43 ◼   ► Then you're fine.

01:06:44 ◼   ► But if you have any other business idea,

01:06:46 ◼   ► no, sorry, you gotta go in Shark Tank, right?

01:06:48 ◼   ► So it's a narrow slice thing.

01:06:49 ◼   ► And presumably Apple does this,

01:06:51 ◼   ► because hey, they're the app company,

01:06:53 ◼   ► so there's some kind of synergy there, but this brings up a tweet that our friend Cable

01:06:57 ◼   ► Sasser from Panic posted today or yesterday, I forget.

01:07:01 ◼   ► He was arguing with Gruber about something and his reply was, "You can't just say, 'Well,

01:07:08 ◼   ► that's reality TV.'"

01:07:11 ◼   ► He's using "Well, that's reality TV" as a verb, so I'm going to try to read this in

01:07:15 ◼   ► the way that it says, "You can't quote 'Well, that's reality TV' a thing from Apple."

01:07:20 ◼   ► Does that sentence make sense to people?

01:07:21 ◼   ► That's what he wrote.

01:07:22 ◼   ► hard here. Not an actor. It's from Apple. The experts of good taste now get a free pass

01:07:27 ◼   ► for junk? Like the idea is you can't just say, "Oh, well, it's reality to you," or whatever.

01:07:31 ◼   ► Because it's from Apple, we have some expectations of taste, which, you know, planet of the apps,

01:07:37 ◼   ► perhaps not getting off on the right foot right from the title. When I saw this tweet,

01:07:41 ◼   ► I was thinking like, we talked in past shows about Apple getting into the content market,

01:07:46 ◼   ► and I still think that makes sense because if they are going to try to compete with the

01:07:50 ◼   ► to Netflix and Amazon and stuff,

01:07:52 ◼   ► and Netflix and Amazon are doing original content,

01:07:55 ◼   ► Apple should be doing original content too.

01:07:57 ◼   ► But the thing about content is,

01:08:01 ◼   ► if you're doing original content well,

01:08:03 ◼   ► not saying you can't, but probably you shouldn't

01:08:07 ◼   ► imbue that content with any of the sensibilities

01:08:11 ◼   ► from your company, which sounds like,

01:08:12 ◼   ► well, isn't that Apple's whole thing?

01:08:13 ◼   ► Isn't everything they do imbued

01:08:14 ◼   ► with the sensibility of Apple?

01:08:16 ◼   ► But content is different.

01:08:18 ◼   ► There is nothing particularly about Stranger Things or Man in a High Castle that makes me think of Netflix or Amazon.

01:08:25 ◼   ► Like there's none of their corporate DNA in those shows.

01:08:28 ◼   ► Creative content, especially entertainment, has to be true to its genre.

01:08:32 ◼   ► So if it's a sci-fi show, make a good sci-fi show.

01:08:36 ◼   ► If it is a family drama, make a good family drama.

01:08:39 ◼   ► If it's a wacky comedy, make a good wacky comedy.

01:08:41 ◼   ► It doesn't matter how well wacky comedy, family drama, or sci-fi fit with your corporate branding.

01:08:46 ◼   ► And it's weird because Amazon and Netflix and Apple are these tech-based companies that

01:08:51 ◼   ► do fairly different things with some overlap, but none of them have anything to do with

01:08:55 ◼   ► creativity.

01:08:56 ◼   ► But I think Netflix and Amazon have shown, if you get the right people involved, basically

01:09:01 ◼   ► like, what is being supplied by Netflix and Amazon?

01:09:04 ◼   ► Obviously, there's a venue for viewing.

01:09:06 ◼   ► But the most important thing is money.

01:09:08 ◼   ► Here you go, people who know how to get creative things created by creative people.

01:09:13 ◼   ► Here's a bucket of money.

01:09:14 ◼   ► Can you make a good show and out pops House of the Cards?

01:09:17 ◼   ► Answer yes if you throw enough money at it and you hire the right people.

01:09:20 ◼   ► Netflix a company that delivers plastic discs and streaming video to people's houses, you

01:09:26 ◼   ► know, used to plastic discs, can make good content.

01:09:30 ◼   ► And same thing with Amazon, the place that you buy stuff from, they deliver for you in

01:09:34 ◼   ► boxes can make original content.

01:09:37 ◼   ► So if Apple has decided, and you can debate the merits of this, that they're going to

01:09:42 ◼   ► make a reality show. I think we're getting a little bit confused by the fact that it

01:09:47 ◼   ► involves apps. The bottom line is, all right, if you're going to make a reality show, what

01:09:51 ◼   ► are reality shows like and can you make a good one? And I'm going to defend reality

01:09:55 ◼   ► shows as a long time viewer of reality shows from the very beginning. I still watch and

01:10:01 ◼   ► enjoy many of them. That there is such a thing as a good reality show and a bad reality show.

01:10:06 ◼   ► Oh yeah. But within the genre, like there is a genre. And if you look at this trailer,

01:10:11 ◼   ► you go, that's a reality show.

01:10:13 ◼   ► Like it is clearly recognizable as a reality show.

01:10:16 ◼   ► And I think it could be a good reality show if done well,

01:10:21 ◼   ► because it involves people with a skill

01:10:26 ◼   ► and an ambition and a dream or whatever.

01:10:30 ◼   ► And they are going to, you know,

01:10:32 ◼   ► in all these scenarios where you have the panel of experts

01:10:34 ◼   ► has to pick among them, that can be very bad,

01:10:36 ◼   ► or it can be good where they're trying to encourage people

01:10:40 ◼   ► after the initial like let's make fun of the other people

01:10:42 ◼   ► who are really bad, you know,

01:10:44 ◼   ► sort of American Idol type thing like that.

01:10:45 ◼   ► I feel like it's a bad aspect of it.

01:10:46 ◼   ► But either way, once you get into the human story

01:10:49 ◼   ► of like I want to do this thing,

01:10:51 ◼   ► you don't need to know what the details of this struggle are.

01:10:54 ◼   ► This won't be about application development probably.

01:10:56 ◼   ► It'll mostly be about starting a new business

01:10:58 ◼   ► and business ideas.

01:10:59 ◼   ► And in the end, unlike for example, American Idol,

01:11:02 ◼   ► in the end, there is much less ability

01:11:05 ◼   ► to make these people into superstars.

01:11:06 ◼   ► I mean, even American Idol had trouble eventually,

01:11:08 ◼   ► Like Kelly Clarkson had a reasonable expectation that if she won this reality show, she would

01:11:15 ◼   ► have a viable recording career.

01:11:17 ◼   ► A, because the people picking her are going to pick people based on talent, and B, because

01:11:22 ◼   ► you get an in with the recording industry, which is way more monolithic and actually

01:11:27 ◼   ► back then had even more power than it does today, to make you a star because they control

01:11:32 ◼   ► distribution and so on and so forth, much less so than they used to in the old days,

01:11:36 ◼   ► but still it was a thing.

01:11:37 ◼   ► But for the App Show, I don't particularly trust that the four people on the expert panel

01:11:44 ◼   ► have any idea what is going to be a successful app beyond any four random people that you

01:11:49 ◼   ► picked in the tech industry.

01:11:50 ◼   ► And furthermore, I don't particularly think that even Apple itself, by featuring you in

01:11:54 ◼   ► the App Store and heavily pushing you, is going to turn your idea into a viable business

01:11:59 ◼   ► for the long term.

01:12:01 ◼   ► But I think none of that matters for reality shows, because at this point, we are perfectly

01:12:06 ◼   ► willing to accept that winning a reality show is its own reward. And whatever they promise

01:12:11 ◼   ► you, we go, "Yeah, yeah, yeah, you'll be rich and famous forever, or I'll forget you by

01:12:14 ◼   ► next season." Because that's not what it's about. It's an entertainment program. And

01:12:18 ◼   ► you want, and like I said, it can be done badly and exploitively, or it can be done

01:12:21 ◼   ► in a way that people enjoy, where you get to see plain old human drama and people with

01:12:25 ◼   ► skills trying to apply those skills in a challenging situation. Hopefully the judges and the sponsors

01:12:30 ◼   ► are supportive and encouraging. And it is a positive type of program with good production

01:12:35 ◼   ► values that treats its contestants well, that has smart, funny, and interesting and charming

01:12:40 ◼   ► judges, I believe a good reality show is possible.

01:12:43 ◼   ► I don't know whether this will be one, but I think the fact that this reality show involves

01:12:47 ◼   ► apps is a distraction and a thing that skews people's thinking about it.

01:12:53 ◼   ► I guess the only thing you really debate is should the first major piece of original content

01:12:57 ◼   ► that Apple made, not counting Carpool Karaoke, which was an existing franchise, should it

01:13:01 ◼   ► be a reality show?

01:13:02 ◼   ► Maybe, maybe not, but again, I don't think by judging it based on that you could say

01:13:07 ◼   ► you shouldn't be trying to figure out how well does reality show fit with Apple's ethos.

01:13:12 ◼   ► That's not the question at all. The question is, are reality shows popular? Yes, they are

01:13:16 ◼   ► popular. So if you were picking a genre, and it's also different than what other people

01:13:20 ◼   ► do, they're not doing a sci-fi, a retro sci-fi show, or a show based on, you know, sci-fi

01:13:29 ◼   ► books from a well-known author, right? That has been well-trod territory. They're doing

01:13:34 ◼   ► a reality show as their first thing, which is a little bit different. They're not doing

01:13:36 ◼   ► a superhero thing or anything like that. So I think that's a reasonable choice. And at

01:13:40 ◼   ► some point, someone convinced them if we are doing a reality show, there's a little bit

01:13:43 ◼   ► of synergy if we do it on apps. But I'm willing to give this show all the benefit of the doubt,

01:13:49 ◼   ► even though I certainly won't watch it and I'm not interested in it. I don't watch Shark

01:13:52 ◼   ► Tank either. All the benefit of the doubt. But what I would say is, if Apple is serious

01:13:57 ◼   ► about content, I hope it doesn't only do reality shows because there's no reason Apple can't

01:14:03 ◼   ► do original content in any genre that it wants because it has that same thing that Amazon

01:14:07 ◼   ► and Netflix have, mountains of money.

01:14:10 ◼   ► And if they are wise and hire the right peoples and you throw mountains of money at them,

01:14:14 ◼   ► they can make a good video content in any genre that you can imagine.

01:14:19 ◼   ► And I love that that's happening with Amazon and Netflix and I would like that for that

01:14:22 ◼   ► to happen with Apple because what the hell else are they going to do with their money

01:14:24 ◼   ► if they're not making a car or whatever?

01:14:27 ◼   ► So I'm all for it, even if it is weirdly connected with Apple Music, and even if I will never

01:14:31 ◼   ► ever watch this show.

01:14:34 ◼   ► (laughs)

01:14:35 ◼   ► Yeah, I mean, I understand why everyone was perturbed about it, and I understand that

01:14:40 ◼   ► it's like, "Oh, this is a distraction!"

01:14:42 ◼   ► And, eh, maybe for some of Apple, but, I mean, for the developers that are doing the sorts

01:14:51 ◼   ► of things that the three of us really care about, I don't think it's much of a distraction

01:14:55 ◼   ► at all.

01:14:56 ◼   ► And it's not like, the people who are making this show

01:15:00 ◼   ► were not taking off new Mac Pro hardware to make this show.

01:15:03 ◼   ► - Yeah, exactly.

01:15:04 ◼   ► - Yeah, the Mac Pro hardware team

01:15:06 ◼   ► is busily assembling the escalator.

01:15:08 ◼   ► - Right, exactly.

01:15:09 ◼   ► - And I don't even think it's a distraction

01:15:10 ◼   ► because Apple is in the TV connected box business

01:15:13 ◼   ► and they're in the streaming video business.

01:15:16 ◼   ► Like they have been, you know,

01:15:18 ◼   ► this is not a new venture where they will sell you

01:15:20 ◼   ► or rent you movies and video,

01:15:22 ◼   ► and everybody else who's in that business

01:15:23 ◼   ► is doing original content.

01:15:25 ◼   ► I think that's been shown to be a model that works.

01:15:27 ◼   ► So they are late comers to this.

01:15:28 ◼   ► All they are doing is continuing to compete

01:15:30 ◼   ► in a market they were already in.

01:15:32 ◼   ► It's not like, why are you making TV shows?

01:15:33 ◼   ► You're distracted.

01:15:34 ◼   ► No, they were already in that market.

01:15:36 ◼   ► They've been selling Apple TVs of various kinds

01:15:38 ◼   ► for a long time.

01:15:39 ◼   ► They've been selling video of the iTunes store

01:15:40 ◼   ► for a long time.

01:15:41 ◼   ► That's a market they're in.

01:15:42 ◼   ► They're just competing in it.

01:15:43 ◼   ► People should be encouraging them.

01:15:44 ◼   ► Like we're encouraging them to compete

01:15:45 ◼   ► in the personal computer market.

01:15:47 ◼   ► Yes, by all means, look at what your competitor is doing

01:15:49 ◼   ► and try to make your product more valuable and desirable.

01:15:52 ◼   ► Good job, not a distraction at all.

01:15:54 ◼   ► (upbeat music)

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01:18:09 ◼   ► (upbeat music)

01:18:12 ◼   ► - I don't even know how to pronounce this.

01:18:14 ◼   ► Cavo, Cave-o?

01:18:16 ◼   ► Kaaavvooooo. That's it. That's exactly how you have to say it. Oh, alright, good. I'm

01:18:22 ◼   ► glad I got it in the last try. It's "krat-EK-ery." Nicely done. Nicely done. I always feel bad

01:18:30 ◼   ► about that and primer. You guys don't, I don't know, you don't listen to me being

01:18:34 ◼   ► harmful enough, but you know, you don't know the movie either, do you? God, I'm

01:18:37 ◼   ► aware of it existing. Hey! I'm gonna take that as a victory. Is that the one with the

01:18:42 ◼   ► Time-traveling one with the box like the refrigerator sized box. Yes. Yeah. I have seen that actually I know shit

01:18:48 ◼   ► I agree. That's it anyway the title that movie is PRIMER and the person who made that movie

01:18:55 ◼   ► initially

01:18:57 ◼   ► Expected people and preferred people to pronounce it primer

01:18:59 ◼   ► No

01:19:00 ◼   ► But eventually gave up because everybody everybody who saw that word pronounced it primer

01:19:05 ◼   ► Which is an alternate pronunciation of that word with a different meaning

01:19:09 ◼   ► And so the creator of the mood he had to go and Sir tekari same situation

01:19:14 ◼   ► I believe the original logo had a bar over the e to try to tell you what to long e say stratekari

01:19:20 ◼   ► Right, that's correct. But that didn't work and the public has spoken and now the creator of that site says stratekari

01:19:28 ◼   ► Truth. Sorry Ben Thompson. Anyway, I have no idea what this is about. So tell me about

01:19:33 ◼   ► kahvoo

01:19:35 ◼   ► Lot of people were tweeting this

01:19:37 ◼   ► With the idea that this is the omnivorous box that I talked about on hypercritical and earlier on earlier episodes of ATP

01:19:45 ◼   ► It's such an old idea from like 2011 or whatever the hell hypercritical was

01:19:49 ◼   ► That was back when I was complaining a lot about TiVo and what I wanted was someone to make a box

01:19:55 ◼   ► It would be nice if it was Apple that

01:19:57 ◼   ► Sat on my TV and had a whole bunch of inputs

01:20:01 ◼   ► It took video from all the places that I pay for stuff.

01:20:04 ◼   ► Back in 2011, I was like, "Hey, I pay for cable, and I also pay for Netflix, and I also

01:20:08 ◼   ► have a Blu-ray player or a PlayStation."

01:20:11 ◼   ► All these different places that I can get video into my TV.

01:20:15 ◼   ► I would like all those inputs to go into this thing that I called an "omnivorous box" because

01:20:19 ◼   ► it would consume anything.

01:20:22 ◼   ► And then I wanted one cable coming out of an omnivorous box into my television and one

01:20:27 ◼   ► remote that controlled the omnivorous box and I would be able to, through a single interface,

01:20:33 ◼   ► have access to all the video that I pay for.

01:20:35 ◼   ► I pay for a cable subscription, cable has TV shows, they come on, my TiVo records them,

01:20:40 ◼   ► I want access to all those shows, both live and recorded.

01:20:43 ◼   ► I pay for Netflix and if there's a Netflix client either on my television or on the omnivorous

01:20:48 ◼   ► box yourself or on an Apple TV or something, I want to be able to see that stuff.

01:20:52 ◼   ► I have a Plex server running, or a PS3 media server back then,

01:20:57 ◼   ► and that can play files from a hard drive

01:20:59 ◼   ► somewhere in my basement.

01:21:00 ◼   ► I want to be able to watch that kind as well.

01:21:01 ◼   ► And I want it to be one big unified interface.

01:21:04 ◼   ► So when I look through the shows available for me to watch,

01:21:07 ◼   ► it does not express to me in any way

01:21:08 ◼   ► where this stuff comes from.

01:21:10 ◼   ► It is just like, yes, this video comes

01:21:12 ◼   ► from many different sources,

01:21:13 ◼   ► but I give you a unified interface to it.

01:21:14 ◼   ► It's just a series of things that you can watch,

01:21:17 ◼   ► things that might come out in the future,

01:21:19 ◼   ► things that have come on in the past,

01:21:21 ◼   ► things that you can stream right now, just one big continuous clean interface.

01:21:25 ◼   ► And that is a super hard problem to solve because all of those people who distribute

01:21:29 ◼   ► that content, cable companies, Netflix, even like the PS3 media server people, do not want

01:21:34 ◼   ► you to make that box.

01:21:35 ◼   ► They want you to use their box and their remote and all that other stuff, especially cable

01:21:39 ◼   ► companies, that making that box would be famously difficult.

01:21:44 ◼   ► Many companies tried.

01:21:45 ◼   ► Google gave it probably the best run with its absurd Google TV thing with that crazy

01:21:50 ◼   ► remote remember that?

01:21:51 ◼   ► >> Yup.

01:21:52 ◼   ► >> That was like two Google TVs ago, I forget which thing called Google TV was.

01:21:55 ◼   ► >> Oh yeah.

01:21:56 ◼   ► >> Remember that?

01:21:57 ◼   ► >> That was one that Eric Schmidt said was going to be in every TV, right?

01:21:59 ◼   ► >> No, that was the second one.

01:22:00 ◼   ► This was the one before that.

01:22:02 ◼   ► >> Yeah.

01:22:03 ◼   ► Anyway, it's a really hard problem both technically, because how would you even solve that technical

01:22:07 ◼   ► problem, and business-wise, because everybody whose input is going into your Unnervous Box

01:22:12 ◼   ► does not want people to get their content through your Unnervous Box and they will fight

01:22:16 ◼   ► you on it.

01:22:17 ◼   ► They will make it so your box stops working on purpose because they don't want you to be the middleman.

01:22:23 ◼   ► It's like, no, they don't want that at all.

01:22:25 ◼   ► And so no one ever did make that box.

01:22:26 ◼   ► TiVo came the closest because TiVo takes the cable input because of CableCard, which is a thing that happened when there was a brief moment of semi-sanity in our lawmaking institutions in this country that allowed third party products to accept cable signals with some caveats.

01:22:41 ◼   ► So that's why I can even use a TiVo and why I don't have to have a cable box.

01:22:45 ◼   ► so we could get cable television and record that,

01:22:48 ◼   ► and then eventually TiVo added some fairly grim

01:22:51 ◼   ► streaming video clients to their platform

01:22:53 ◼   ► so you can watch Netflix through your TiVo

01:22:55 ◼   ► and Amazon through your TiVo and all,

01:22:56 ◼   ► and I think it was a Plex client, I forget.

01:22:58 ◼   ► Anyway, not quite omnivorous

01:23:00 ◼   ► because you can't watch iTunes content through there

01:23:03 ◼   ► and you can't watch my Blu-ray player through there

01:23:05 ◼   ► and all sorts of other stuff like that.

01:23:07 ◼   ► So omnivorous box never came to be.

01:23:09 ◼   ► Enter Cabo with two As and no bar over any of them.

01:23:13 ◼   ► This is a set-top box that takes a whole bunch of HDMI inputs and has one output.

01:23:18 ◼   ► And it tries to do something like what I described.

01:23:23 ◼   ► You have one CAVO remote, you use that remote, and with it you can see all the video that

01:23:29 ◼   ► is available on all the different devices that are plugged into it.

01:23:32 ◼   ► And you can watch video from any of them.

01:23:36 ◼   ► It is not, I think, really an omnivorous box because one of my requirements for omnivorous

01:23:40 ◼   ► box is it provides one interface that doesn't make you have to be aware of where stuff comes

01:23:47 ◼   ► from.

01:23:48 ◼   ► And one of Cabo's primary interfaces is a series of boxes that say Roku, PS4, Amazon,

01:23:54 ◼   ► Apple TV, DirecTV.

01:23:57 ◼   ► Like when I first saw it, I thought, "This is a glorified HDMI switcher."

01:24:01 ◼   ► It's like, "Great, all your HDMI things go into one box, and then out of that box, it

01:24:07 ◼   ► connects to your television, and then when you turn it on with the one remote, you can

01:24:10 ◼   ► pick which thing you want to do and then you just get the interface to that thing.

01:24:12 ◼   ► That's not quite how it works.

01:24:13 ◼   ► We'll link in the show notes to this video from The Verge, which is very long, kind of

01:24:17 ◼   ► boring, but just scrub through it until you see them start actually using the device of

01:24:21 ◼   ► the creators of this thing talking to... who are they talking to?

01:24:24 ◼   ► Walt Mossberg, I recognize because of his silly beard, and someone else.

01:24:33 ◼   ► And they give demos of the product and it tries to do more than that.

01:24:36 ◼   ► It tries to give you an interface to all of the things that are available on all of the

01:24:38 ◼   ► devices.

01:24:39 ◼   ► pretty to look at, but it will try to say, "Hey, here are the shows available for you

01:24:44 ◼   ► to watch," without expressing to you where they are from.

01:24:48 ◼   ► It has Amazon Echo integration, so they keep doing this demo of, like, you know, "Watch

01:24:53 ◼   ► Stranger Things," and you have, like, a preference list of, like, when I say "Watch Stranger

01:24:57 ◼   ► Things," and you determine that Stranger Things is a show that's on Netflix, and I have three

01:25:01 ◼   ► boxes connected that can all do Netflix, I want you to prefer to use the Apple TV for

01:25:05 ◼   ► Netflix for whatever reason.

01:25:07 ◼   ► So it will start playing Stranger Things from Netflix through the Apple TV.

01:25:11 ◼   ► If you say Watchmen on the High Castle, it will determine that that is only on Amazon

01:25:16 ◼   ► and you have an Amazon streaming thing connected somewhere, and so it will start playing it

01:25:20 ◼   ► from that for you.

01:25:21 ◼   ► So the voice control interface is like, you know, one level up from what each of these

01:25:24 ◼   ► devices do individually.

01:25:26 ◼   ► Same thing with the remote.

01:25:27 ◼   ► The remote, you're controlling the CaboBox, the CaboBox is controlling the inputs.

01:25:33 ◼   ► I wonder how they're doing the unified interface.

01:25:36 ◼   ► It doesn't look that great.

01:25:37 ◼   ► It's mostly just text.

01:25:39 ◼   ► It's not a particularly rich interface.

01:25:40 ◼   ► If you were to go to the interface to any of these boxes or services, it would look

01:25:43 ◼   ► better and have nice pictures and more metadata and stuff.

01:25:48 ◼   ► But at least they're trying.

01:25:49 ◼   ► I think this box faces the same challenges as a real omnivorous box would in that the

01:25:55 ◼   ► companies that they are sort of trying to insert themselves between the customer and

01:26:01 ◼   ► these other boxes, those boxes aren't going to like that.

01:26:04 ◼   ► And if they don't intentionally break them, they'll accidentally break them, especially

01:26:06 ◼   ► if their means of control involves, I mean, like, are they doing screen scraping?

01:26:11 ◼   ► Are they trying to use APIs, documented or otherwise?

01:26:13 ◼   ► How are they even doing this?

01:26:15 ◼   ► Do they have separate metadata somewhere that's like in the cloud, so it's not actually looking

01:26:22 ◼   ► at the content over the HDMI thing?

01:26:23 ◼   ► So I don't know.

01:26:24 ◼   ► I don't know how they're doing it.

01:26:25 ◼   ► It doesn't look that impressive, but at least they're giving it the old college try.

01:26:33 ◼   ► The most interesting thing about this demo are the things that are probably the least

01:26:40 ◼   ► technically cool in that, you know, calling this a glorified HDMI switch is kind of mean,

01:26:45 ◼   ► but calling it a glorified receiver, less mean.

01:26:49 ◼   ► But if you have a receiver or any other box that takes a whole bunch of HDMI inputs and

01:26:53 ◼   ► sends one output to your television, you know that strangely one of the challenges is, aside

01:26:59 ◼   ► from having a million different remotes and having to switch inputs, that's cumbersome.

01:27:03 ◼   ► So one of the demos they give is, what if someone comes over to your house and they

01:27:07 ◼   ► don't know how to use the 17 remotes that are on your end table, right?

01:27:11 ◼   ► Or even the one Logitech Harmony remote that you have, because that is generally complicated.

01:27:15 ◼   ► And the example they gave in the demo is like, what if someone comes over to your house and

01:27:20 ◼   ► they see you have a PlayStation 4, but they see the controller sitting on the end table,

01:27:24 ◼   ► and they just pick up the PlayStation controller off the end table.

01:27:27 ◼   ► Nothing is, you know, they just come into the room, nothing is turned on.

01:27:29 ◼   ► just pick up the PlayStation controller and turn it on.

01:27:32 ◼   ► Any reasonably good receiver should be able to notice that, hey, I was sitting here and

01:27:38 ◼   ► everything was off, but I noticed that the PlayStation came on and started sending me

01:27:42 ◼   ► video output.

01:27:43 ◼   ► So I am going to, through CEC or some other thing that's supposed to work but doesn't,

01:27:47 ◼   ► turn on your television, switch the input to the, you know, switch my input as the receiver

01:27:52 ◼   ► or whatever I am to the PS4 thing, and so now merely by pressing the PlayStation on

01:27:57 ◼   ► button on the PlayStation controller, there it is on your screen. You don't have to know,

01:28:02 ◼   ► "Oh, if you want to play PlayStation, pick up the receiver remote, switch to input number

01:28:06 ◼   ► two, then turn on the TiVo, or then turn on the PlayStation. Make sure you do it in that

01:28:10 ◼   ► order. If you want to hear it through the receiver speakers, also turn the receiver

01:28:13 ◼   ► on, but if you don't, it'll go through the television, blah, blah, blah." You don't have

01:28:15 ◼   ► to know how to do that. And then if someone comes along and they turn the Roku on, it'll

01:28:20 ◼   ► notice, even though the PlayStation 4 is already on, because you just activated the Roku using

01:28:25 ◼   ► the Roku remote because maybe all you know is the Roku remote, you don't know what the

01:28:27 ◼   ► hell this Cabo thing is, you don't know the PlayStation thing, you see, "Oh, Roku remote,

01:28:30 ◼   ► I know what a Roku is," and you just turn the Roku on, the Cabo box will see it. Well,

01:28:35 ◼   ► even though PlayStation is on, someone just turned the Roku on, so I'm going to switch

01:28:39 ◼   ► to the Roku input and let you control it with the Roku remote. That type of functionality

01:28:44 ◼   ► should be in every decent receiver, and probably is in a lot of decent receivers, but to me,

01:28:49 ◼   ► that was the most impressive because it's like, "Yes, that's how all receivers should

01:28:53 ◼   ► and I'm glad that someone has realized this and tried to build it into a box.

01:28:57 ◼   ► So I start off thinking this is a glorify HDMI switcher receiver and I

01:29:02 ◼   ► ended up thinking this is a really good HDMI switcher slash receiver. Now for the

01:29:08 ◼   ► bad news. The bad news is it's $400. Alright and this $400 does not include

01:29:15 ◼   ► any of the boxes that you connect to it which doesn't a problem because I

01:29:18 ◼   ► already have a million TV boxes but like the idea is you buy this box and it's

01:29:21 ◼   ► like you get nothing it's like it's like buying a Synology with no disks in it

01:29:25 ◼   ► it's like yeah it's there it's ready for you to plug things into but it's no good

01:29:28 ◼   ► to you until you plug inputs into it so $400 and then $100 for every box

01:29:35 ◼   ► depending on what you know I guess the Apple ones are expensive you know $60

01:29:38 ◼   ► for a Chromecast $60 for a cheap Roku $100 for a good one whatever but if you

01:29:44 ◼   ► already have all those boxes and maybe if you don't have a receiver oh and also

01:29:48 ◼   ► Also it's pretty big and it's weird and it's wood and it's probably not going to be available

01:29:52 ◼   ► to consumers until 2018.

01:29:54 ◼   ► So all those caveats.

01:29:55 ◼   ► Besides all that, it's great.

01:29:57 ◼   ► Yeah, they're going to sell 5,000 of them sometime this year.

01:30:01 ◼   ► You can pick three different kinds of wood, three different kinds of ugly wood to be on

01:30:04 ◼   ► top of it.

01:30:05 ◼   ► Oh, now that you tell me that, I'm in.

01:30:07 ◼   ► You're really not doing a great job of selling this, John.

01:30:09 ◼   ► I know, yeah, I don't think this product is really going anywhere, but I was excited by

01:30:13 ◼   ► the idea that someone has tackled some of the very basic problems of this terrible,

01:30:17 ◼   ► terrible television age we live in where we all have way too many pucks or other

01:30:23 ◼   ► kinds of boxes connected to our televisions and very frequently watching

01:30:30 ◼   ► any video content involves switching inputs and possibly also switching

01:30:34 ◼   ► remotes and all the solutions that try to make that easier are bad in some way

01:30:37 ◼   ► including this one but in the absence of a true omnivorous box which can probably

01:30:42 ◼   ► never exist for the same reason OpenDock can probably never exist business

01:30:45 ◼   ► reasons on top of technical reasons equals death.

01:30:51 ◼   ► I like the fact that someone is trying to push the envelope forward and I hope somebody

01:30:56 ◼   ► buys this company and incorporates their good ideas into their own products.

01:31:00 ◼   ► Like TiVo I assume?

01:31:01 ◼   ► No they're – come on.

01:31:04 ◼   ► Come on.

01:31:05 ◼   ► I just want TiVo to stay in business.

01:31:06 ◼   ► They're not buying anybody.

01:31:07 ◼   ► Please TiVo don't waste your money buying these people.

01:31:12 ◼   ► Apple could buy them, make their Apple TV better.

01:31:14 ◼   ► could have made a box like this. Of course they never would, but like the type of the

01:31:17 ◼   ► type of functionality of just like, can we stop people from having to do switch inputs?

01:31:23 ◼   ► That would be good. Like, can it just do what I mean? Can it just notice because I turned

01:31:27 ◼   ► the PlayStation on? I probably want to play with the PlayStation, just switch to that

01:31:29 ◼   ► input automatically. It's nice. Thanks to our three sponsors this week, Eero, Squarespace,

01:31:36 ◼   ► and Pingdom. And we will see you next week.

01:31:38 ◼   ► Now the show is over, they didn't even mean to begin

01:31:45 ◼   ► 'Cause it was accidental (accidental)

01:31:48 ◼   ► Oh, it was accidental (accidental)

01:31:51 ◼   ► John didn't do any research, Marco and Casey wouldn't let him

01:31:56 ◼   ► 'Cause it was accidental (accidental)

01:31:59 ◼   ► Oh, it was accidental (accidental)

01:32:02 ◼   ► And you can find the show notes at ATP.fm

01:32:07 ◼   ► And if you're into Twitter, you can follow them

01:32:11 ◼   ► @C-A-S-E-Y-L-I-S-S

01:32:16 ◼   ► So that's Kasey Liss, M-A-R-C-O-A-R-M

01:32:20 ◼   ► Auntie Marco Arment

01:32:23 ◼   ► S-I-R-A-C-U-S-A-C-R-A-C-U-S

01:32:28 ◼   ► It's accidental

01:32:31 ◼   ► They didn't mean to

01:32:33 ◼   ► Accidental

01:32:36 ◼   ► ♪ Tech podcast so long ♪

01:32:39 ◼   ► - We have an odd note in the show notes.

01:32:44 ◼   ► It says, "John's Mac throws some more RAM."

01:32:49 ◼   ► - With more in parentheses, too.

01:32:51 ◼   ► - Yeah, throws as in there's a failure,

01:32:55 ◼   ► throws as in it ejected it,

01:32:58 ◼   ► it spit it like a loogie across the room.

01:33:01 ◼   ► - Some kind of exception handling.

01:33:03 ◼   ► - We've talked about this before.

01:33:04 ◼   ► That's why this is this is a second the second time this has happened

01:33:07 ◼   ► I think on the run of ATP and I think I used the same language last time the analogy

01:33:11 ◼   ► I'm trying to make here and failing obviously is when a horse throws a shoe. Do you know that expression? Mm-hmm?

01:33:16 ◼   ► Yeah, you know I was raised in Ohio where we had lots of horses. No, I what no

01:33:21 ◼   ► I don't know what that means a horse throws a shoe my understanding

01:33:24 ◼   ► I was not raised with horses either either disclaimer disclaimer disclaimer

01:33:27 ◼   ► You know your horseshoes, you know the little metal bendy u-shaped things you put on those the bottle

01:33:32 ◼   ► Yeah, I know that part at least yeah, and they're attached somehow with like these weird-looking spikes or nails or something

01:33:38 ◼   ► It's scary and I don't understand it anyway

01:33:41 ◼   ► The horse is galloping along those little metal u-shaped things are supposed to say on the bottom of the little feats

01:33:47 ◼   ► but sometimes when they're galloping along one of them goes flying off the foot and that's bad because now your horse has lost its shoe and

01:33:54 ◼   ► It needs it to walk comfortably or whatever the hell horseshoes are for

01:33:58 ◼   ► And it's throwing as in like it could go flying because as the horse is galloping the shoe goes flying

01:34:02 ◼   ► So basically while like doing something strenuous like encoding a video your Mac Pro

01:34:07 ◼   ► Forcefully ejected one of its ram sticks from its slot

01:34:11 ◼   ► That's what I'm hearing or not strenuous as the case may be so my Mac Pro is very old the RAM is also very old

01:34:17 ◼   ► As 2008 Mac Pro now it is good solid eight years old pushing up on nine. I forget when I bought the thing

01:34:26 ◼   ► Throwing some RAM means I have eight sticks of RAM in there and every once in a while

01:34:31 ◼   ► Why don't you stop working and it's like my horse through a shoe my mac pro through some RAM

01:34:38 ◼   ► so I came in the other day and tried to wake my mac pro from sleep and

01:34:41 ◼   ► the fans spun up at the screen did not turn on and the power light on the front of my mac pro was blinking in a

01:34:47 ◼   ► very concerning way and

01:34:49 ◼   ► Unlike later Mac pros including even the 2009, but I don't know how far forward they went

01:34:54 ◼   ► My Mac does not have a little set of red LEDs on the banks of dims to tell you which ones are bad

01:35:01 ◼   ► All I knew is that I had a computer with eight dims of RAM on two daughter cards four on each

01:35:08 ◼   ► That would not boot

01:35:10 ◼   ► It just wouldn't post wouldn't do the chime wouldn't do anything because you know, there's some bad RAM there

01:35:16 ◼   ► And this has happened before multiple times

01:35:18 ◼   ► I think I brought up when Casey had bad RAM that I had a OWC RAM in my thing and that

01:35:23 ◼   ► Despite the fact that my computer is so many years old every time it throws a throw the dim if it's an OWC one

01:35:30 ◼   ► that is the problem I just call them up and they send me a new one and

01:35:33 ◼   ► It would be better if they didn't break but after eight years if it throws a dim and I get a new one for free

01:35:40 ◼   ► I still consider that pretty amazing

01:35:42 ◼   ► In the the age of like, you know two-year warranties and hard drives or whatever

01:35:47 ◼   ► So I had a fun

01:35:49 ◼   ► afternoon of

01:35:52 ◼   ► Unseeding daughter cards or removing dims putting them back in in every valid configuration

01:35:57 ◼   ► To by process of elimination find the pair of them

01:36:01 ◼   ► They have to be in pairs find the match pair of dims

01:36:04 ◼   ► That don't work and even with the pairs all I can tell you is that one of the two doesn't work out or they might

01:36:08 ◼   ► Both be bad so eventually after many many boots, and I'm good at this now many many

01:36:14 ◼   ► Exercises of seeding and unseeding which is actually kind of satisfying with the little clips they have on them and everything and how you shove them

01:36:20 ◼   ► in I

01:36:22 ◼   ► I eventually did find the pair of DIMMs that was bad.

01:36:26 ◼   ► They were OWC DIMMs and they are sending me new ones for free.

01:36:33 ◼   ► So I'm down either 2 gigs or 4 gigs of RAM right now.

01:36:39 ◼   ► Still doing okay, let's see what I've got here.

01:36:41 ◼   ► Fourteen gigs of RAM, so I should have eighteen, so I think I'm down four.

01:36:46 ◼   ► Okay, dear Apple, if you are still listening to this somehow for some reason, please put

01:36:53 ◼   ► this computer out of its misery, give John a new Mac Pro to buy so he can finally stop

01:36:59 ◼   ► using this ancient one.

01:37:01 ◼   ► Please Apple.

01:37:02 ◼   ► The terror that fills my heart when I think, is this the time that it's just like, that

01:37:05 ◼   ► it's just dead, like that the motherboard is dead, you know, that it's just not gonna

01:37:08 ◼   ► boot, right?

01:37:10 ◼   ► Because then I think about like, I would have to buy an iMac or should I just like buy the

01:37:14 ◼   ► the cheapest laptop I can do?

01:37:15 ◼   ► What would I do with all my data?

01:37:17 ◼   ► I just, it's terrifying.

01:37:18 ◼   ► So what, you know, I was afraid,

01:37:21 ◼   ► I got it down to this point where I was like,

01:37:23 ◼   ► maybe it's just not gonna boot

01:37:24 ◼   ► because I got it down to like just two DIMMs, you know,

01:37:27 ◼   ► the two DIMM configuration of the two that I thought

01:37:30 ◼   ► were like the newest and most reliable RAM

01:37:32 ◼   ► and it still wouldn't boot.

01:37:33 ◼   ► And the trick I learned this time is occasionally

01:37:36 ◼   ► you also need to do an SMC reset to make it happy.

01:37:38 ◼   ► Not all the time, but occasionally,

01:37:41 ◼   ► because I was in one RAM configuration

01:37:42 ◼   ► and it would not boot.

01:37:44 ◼   ► And then I did an SMC reset and it did boot

01:37:46 ◼   ► with the same RAM configuration.

01:37:47 ◼   ► And so once I learned that trick,

01:37:48 ◼   ► then that was the easy way to make sure I was,

01:37:51 ◼   ► you know, actually testing the DIMMs.

01:37:53 ◼   ► And I eventually did narrow it down

01:37:55 ◼   ► and found the two that were bad.

01:37:57 ◼   ► So yeah, so this is what I've gotten in my thing.

01:37:59 ◼   ► In one bank, I've got two gig, two gig, four gig, four gig.

01:38:02 ◼   ► And the other bank, I have one gig, one gig, empty, empty.

01:38:05 ◼   ► It's such a motley collection of RAM.

01:38:06 ◼   ► Some of it Apple, some of it purchased from OWC

01:38:09 ◼   ► in like three different shipments.

01:38:11 ◼   ► - And some of it replaced over time.

01:38:14 ◼   ► Yeah. - My word.

01:38:15 ◼   ► - Oh. - Can't kill this machine,

01:38:17 ◼   ► though.

01:38:18 ◼   ► Takes a lickin' and keeps on tickin'.

01:38:19 ◼   ► - Oh, God. - Please, Apple, please.

01:38:21 ◼   ► Just let Jon replace this, please.

01:38:24 ◼   ► - Meanwhile, it was like, is it gonna be slower

01:38:26 ◼   ► than the Apple Watch by the time I get there?

01:38:28 ◼   ► - Yeah.

01:38:29 ◼   ► By the time the new Mac Pro comes out, if it ever does,

01:38:35 ◼   ► your Mac Pro is probably going to be slower

01:38:37 ◼   ► than every Mac for sale at that time.

01:38:39 ◼   ► - Oh, iOS devices.

01:38:41 ◼   ► - I think the iPhone is already faster than it, isn't it?

01:38:43 ◼   ► - I believe, at least single-threaded,

01:38:45 ◼   ► it passed it I think two generations ago.

01:38:47 ◼   ► Multi-threaded, I think it still hasn't, but it's close.

01:38:50 ◼   ► - Yeah, that's what I'm saying,

01:38:51 ◼   ► I gotta watch for the watch to start lapping me.

01:38:53 ◼   ► - Yeah, I mean, at least if you limited it

01:38:55 ◼   ► just to single-threaded performance,

01:38:57 ◼   ► you're really looking bad compared to all the iOS devices.

01:39:01 ◼   ► - Yeah, but I have more RAM than the iOS devices,

01:39:04 ◼   ► and I have one terabyte of flash storage, so take that iOS.

01:39:07 ◼   ► - Yeah, but their RAM works all the time.

01:39:09 ◼   ► - Ooh, sick burn.

01:39:10 ◼   ► Well, you don't know that until you've used it for eight years.

01:39:13 ◼   ► How's the RAM doing on that iPhone after eight years?

01:39:15 ◼   ► After eight years, the thing won't even turn on when it's not plugged in.

01:39:18 ◼   ► Yeah, yeah, yeah.

01:39:19 ◼   ► Well, I'm sorry to hear that.

01:39:21 ◼   ► As someone who's lived through RAM problems recently, that is no fun, and I feel bad for

01:39:25 ◼   ► you.

01:39:26 ◼   ► You see how much quicker I diagnosed it and dealt with it?

01:39:27 ◼   ► Rather than, rather than, like, pretending it doesn't exist.

01:39:30 ◼   ► I guess you can't pretend it doesn't exist when your machine doesn't boot, but addressed

01:39:33 ◼   ► immediately.

01:39:35 ◼   ► Problem solved.

01:39:36 ◼   ► And also, like, ODBC wasn't open.

01:39:38 ◼   ► Like their phone line wasn't open.

01:39:39 ◼   ► I just call them and deal with the nice people there and just read them my serial numbers and they're like, okay

01:39:44 ◼   ► We'll send you new RAM

01:39:44 ◼   ► I did it through chat which it worked fine like as their phone lines weren't open

01:39:49 ◼   ► but the chat was but chat I find infuriating like customer support chat because I

01:39:54 ◼   ► Don't know why it takes so long for there to be a response because you're like, hello. My name is blah blah

01:40:00 ◼   ► How can I help you and then I paste in my prepared sentence of what my problem is that is formatted in a way

01:40:06 ◼   ► Formatted in a way that I know there will be no follow-up questions, but it contains all the information

01:40:11 ◼   ► Here's here's the problem. Here's why I think this is the problem

01:40:16 ◼   ► How long does it take you to compose that sense three days I can do it on the fly

01:40:19 ◼   ► It's very easy very concise right, but it contains all the information right

01:40:23 ◼   ► Here's my problem

01:40:25 ◼   ► Here's why I know it's my problem

01:40:26 ◼   ► Putting enough information to let them know they don't need to take me through troubleshooting steps and crap right and here's what I want to

01:40:31 ◼   ► happen, I want you to send me new RAM, right? Like in a nice way, but like all the information

01:40:36 ◼   ► is there. And then you wait literally 10 minutes for the reply. And the reply is, can you give

01:40:43 ◼   ► me the order number, serial number, blah, blah, which of course I have ready for them,

01:40:46 ◼   ► but I didn't want to confuse them within the original message. And I paste that in. 10

01:40:50 ◼   ► more minutes, 10 more minutes of that chat window just off the side. To the credit of

01:40:54 ◼   ► the chat thing in OWC, it has like a chime that lets you know when they reply, because

01:40:57 ◼   ► you can't just be sitting there waiting, like there's not even a typing indicator. Like

01:41:01 ◼   ► just 10 minutes, like, are they just chatting with their friends? Did they go for a coffee break?

01:41:05 ◼   ► They're surely not spending this time typing, especially for the first message. There was

01:41:09 ◼   ► no thing for them to be looking up in the system, "Oh, the system is slow. We're looking up your