ATP

00:00:00 ◼   ► This is the show that will not end.

00:00:04 ◼   ► Kuba Boguchowicz—Kuba said that Apple used to have many edits of one original.

00:00:11 ◼   ► This is within the context of photos.

00:00:13 ◼   ► Aperture had it and called it versions.

00:00:16 ◼   ► You could have many versions of one master and it worked.

00:00:19 ◼   ► This is with regard to what Jon was asking for last episode.

00:00:23 ◼   ► That's a nice reminder.

00:00:25 ◼   ► of what we've lost. You know, for people who are in the Apple ecosystem and remember the days when

00:00:33 ◼   ► Apple had a pro video, a pro photo editing app, and then one day they didn't anymore. And Lightroom

00:00:39 ◼   ► is great and you can get it and it's by Adobe and it's good that there's competition in that market.

00:00:43 ◼   ► But very often I forget that Aperture even existed. If you had reminded me that Aperture

00:00:50 ◼   ► existed I probably would have remembered this multi-version thing because I did try Aperture

00:00:53 ◼   ► a few times, especially when they got like that, where you used to share its library

00:00:56 ◼   ► with iPhoto in some weird way that never really worked quite right.

00:01:00 ◼   ► Yeah, I kind of miss that.

00:01:02 ◼   ► I wish that stuff would come—I wish iPhoto stuff would come back to Photos, and if you

00:01:07 ◼   ► run out of iPhoto stuff to steal, you can bring stuff from Aperture.

00:01:10 ◼   ► Like it's all in the family.

00:01:11 ◼   ► They've got that source code.

00:01:12 ◼   ► Those people are still there somewhere, right?

00:01:14 ◼   ► All right, an anonymous person wrote in and said, "I was speaking with an Apple Mac OS

00:01:19 ◼   ► And they said they will or have been making better versions of the new MacBook Pro keyboard

00:01:25 ◼   ► and using them in newly produced units without any public acknowledgement or change of model

00:01:29 ◼   ► number.

00:01:30 ◼   ► By implication, Apple will also be using these refined keyboards in any MacBook Pro keyboards.

00:01:34 ◼   ► They said that this refinement of component designs is very common, and they said that

00:01:39 ◼   ► it is often good to wait a few months after a new product is released so that you can

00:01:42 ◼   ► get the revised versions of any components that were found to have had issues after release.

00:01:46 ◼   ► Why do they have to prove Jon right?

00:01:48 ◼   ► I like the idea of them modifying the product but not changing the model number.

00:01:55 ◼   ► Just to add an air of mystery, kind of like, "Oh, these are the good ones.

00:01:58 ◼   ► Yeah, I know it's exactly the same part and it looks exactly the same and the model number

00:02:00 ◼   ► is the same, but these are the good ones."

00:02:02 ◼   ► We learned so much about assembling the old ones that we put magic special dust in it.

00:02:07 ◼   ► I mean, they do.

00:02:08 ◼   ► You do refine your manufacturing process.

00:02:10 ◼   ► Like you refine the assembly, you could even refine some of the materials for the pieces,

00:02:15 ◼   ► you could source them from different places.

00:02:16 ◼   ► This happens in the manufacturer of any remotely complicated good, and I imagine you don't

00:02:21 ◼   ► always change the model number, but as a consumer, this is like telling us what we want to hear.

00:02:28 ◼   ► If you buy later, they're better.

00:02:29 ◼   ► I always believe that voodoo too, and it's always good to wait a little bit.

00:02:32 ◼   ► Even if only from the old style American car battle days of American car manufacturing,

00:02:39 ◼   ► where you don't buy the cars that were assembled on a Friday because the workers don't care

00:02:42 ◼   ► that much and they just want to go off for the weekend, and so they don't do a good job

00:02:45 ◼   ► assembling your car. The idea that after some company has been building a thing for some

00:02:50 ◼   ► period of time, every part of the process of building it becomes refined and the people/machines/whatever

00:02:59 ◼   ► get better at building the thing, even if every single part of it is the same. And so

00:03:02 ◼   ► you kind of don't want like the very first Playstation 4 off the assembly line. Maybe

00:03:07 ◼   ► you want the 7,000th or 100,000th versus the first three. But all those are things that

00:03:14 ◼   ► are just kind of like modern day folk tales I tell myself to make myself feel better about

00:03:21 ◼   ► delaying purchases for a small amount of time. It's kind of the opposite of Margo's folk

00:03:24 ◼   ► tales that he tells himself to make himself feel better about buying things immediately.

00:03:27 ◼   ► But we all have our stories to make us feel good about our decisions. Honestly, I would

00:03:33 ◼   ► like to believe this, but I just don't know.

00:03:38 ◼   ► And by the way, in my defense, the MacBook Escape came out in October. I bought it in

00:03:42 ◼   ► March.

00:03:43 ◼   ► Oh, look at you waiting six months.

00:03:45 ◼   ► Wait, which one? The first one or the second one? Because you did buy it before, you did

00:03:49 ◼   ► order it before it even was shipping to anybody, if I recall.

00:03:52 ◼   ► Yes, that's true. But the one I actually own, the one that I didn't cancel, that I let deliver

00:03:57 ◼   ► to me, the MacBook Escape, I ordered it in March.

00:04:00 ◼   ► - Well that's good because the one you got,

00:04:01 ◼   ► they've totally sorted out the sticky keyboard situation.

00:04:03 ◼   ► - Eh.

00:04:04 ◼   ► (laughing)

00:04:06 ◼   ► - This anonymous person would say,

00:04:07 ◼   ► "Oh, Marco got the last bad one,

00:04:09 ◼   ► "but now they're using all these refined ones

00:04:10 ◼   ► "that have the same model number."

00:04:12 ◼   ► - Mm-hmm.

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00:05:27 ◼   ► That's betterment.com/ATP.

00:05:31 ◼   ► Betterment, investing made better.

00:05:32 ◼   ► - Let's start the show proper.

00:05:38 ◼   ► Let's do what we really need to do.

00:05:41 ◼   ► Let's do what we've been waiting on for several months now.

00:05:44 ◼   ► Let's talk about software methodologies.

00:05:46 ◼   ► Marco, why don't you start?

00:05:48 ◼   ► - I believe in fully test-driven,

00:05:51 ◼   ► agile stand-up parking lot development.

00:05:54 ◼   ► Oh, God, stop. Okay, so let's talk about WWDC. So for some reason you don't know what we're

00:05:58 ◼   ► talking about. WWDC is a worldwide developer conference. It is happening next week as we

00:06:02 ◼   ► record this in San Jose, California. First time that any of us have been to San Jose

00:06:07 ◼   ► for Dub-Dub. It did happen there back in the days before anyone really cared about Apple.

00:06:12 ◼   ► Don't write me. But now we're coming back to San Jose. It's going to be a new experience

00:06:16 ◼   ► for all of us. And there's a lot to talk about. There's a lot of stuff going on. And there's

00:06:23 ◼   ► been surprisingly little chatter about what's forthcoming. And I bet you if you were to

00:06:30 ◼   ► listen to past episodes, I bet you I've said that the last several years. But man, sitting

00:06:35 ◼   ► here now, the way I remember the chatter leading up to iOS 10, iOS 9, and 8 and 7, I feel like

00:06:43 ◼   ► it's like we knew a lot more about what was going into

00:06:46 ◼   ► those releases than we do what's going into iOS,

00:06:50 ◼   ► well, what presumably will be iOS 11.

00:06:53 ◼   ► Do you guys feel the same way?

00:06:55 ◼   ► - Yeah, I mean, especially because,

00:06:57 ◼   ► I mean, first of all, it's a little bit weird,

00:06:58 ◼   ► like we've heard a lot of kinda like weak,

00:07:02 ◼   ► second tier rumors, but very little of much credibility,

00:07:06 ◼   ► or of much certainty, and it seems like, you know,

00:07:12 ◼   ► And the rumors are so spread out

00:07:15 ◼   ► and relatively diverse in their nature,

00:07:18 ◼   ► like it isn't like all about one product

00:07:19 ◼   ► or all about one thing,

00:07:21 ◼   ► that it's looking like it's gonna be a pretty,

00:07:24 ◼   ► potentially pretty big WWDC,

00:07:28 ◼   ► but that nobody can really say for sure exactly why,

00:07:31 ◼   ► which is kind of interesting.

00:07:32 ◼   ► It's kind of fun that way.

00:07:33 ◼   ► Like we have a whole bunch of things

00:07:34 ◼   ► that we've heard might happen

00:07:36 ◼   ► or are supposed to or intended to happen maybe,

00:07:39 ◼   ► but really nothing as concrete as a lot of previous leaks

00:07:44 ◼   ► and reports have been.

00:07:46 ◼   ► - We can make it up in volume.

00:07:48 ◼   ► You're right, there's no big spearhead,

00:07:50 ◼   ► like the one big thing everyone's looking for

00:07:52 ◼   ► and then the ancillary things.

00:07:53 ◼   ► It's just a bunch of other things.

00:07:54 ◼   ► It kind of reminds me, well, maybe I'm misremembering,

00:07:58 ◼   ► was it iOS 8, the year iOS 8 was announced?

00:08:00 ◼   ► They announced all those features

00:08:02 ◼   ► that we thought would never come to iOS,

00:08:03 ◼   ► and no one of them was the thing that we all hope to see.

00:08:08 ◼   ► all held up, but just the fact that there were so many things in iOS 8 that I was so

00:08:13 ◼   ► desperately needed and they all came, that it gave you the satisfaction of sort of being

00:08:17 ◼   ► overwhelmed with the sheer number of things that Apple was doing to improve its product.

00:08:23 ◼   ► We would all like that, right? But the problem with these big laundry lists where there's

00:08:26 ◼   ► no one thing, it's just a bunch of other stuff, is it's not all going to be there. We've heard

00:08:30 ◼   ► rumors of everything. They can't possibly all be there, so there's going to be some

00:08:33 ◼   ► disappointments mixed in, depending on what you care about the most mixed in with the

00:08:38 ◼   ► other stuff.

00:08:39 ◼   ► So, let's go through this.

00:08:42 ◼   ► Somebody has done a little bit of preparation in the show notes, and since I don't know

00:08:45 ◼   ► who it is, and it couldn't possibly have been Marco, that by process of elimination

00:08:48 ◼   ► means it must have been John, who shouldn't be doing any prep or research at him.

00:08:52 ◼   ► But I'm not sure—I haven't even noticed I fill this document out before every single

00:08:56 ◼   ► show.

00:08:57 ◼   ► You think elves do that?

00:08:58 ◼   ► Yes, but—

00:08:59 ◼   ► Yeah.

00:09:00 ◼   ► Oh, yes, I did.

00:09:01 ◼   ► I thought it was the Keebler elves when they were done baking.

00:09:03 ◼   ► Yeah.

00:09:04 ◼   ► you should now honor my organization here because what I have written as the heading

00:09:10 ◼   ► for the section that we're getting into here is, "WWC hopes and dreams." Because, as Marco

00:09:15 ◼   ► pointed out, the rumors are all kind of wishy-washy, like, "They'll probably do some iOS stuff,

00:09:20 ◼   ► man!" Like, alright, yeah, okay. I'm not that interested in predictions, because if there's

00:09:27 ◼   ► one big thing, we'd be like, "Are they gonna introduce the hoverboards or not? It's been

00:09:31 ◼   ► super heavily rumored, let's talk about the hoverboards." Instead I feel like it's, "What

00:09:37 ◼   ► do we want or what do we think Apple should do in each of these areas?" And obviously

00:09:41 ◼   ► we'll talk about predictions in terms of handicapping them, how they go, but I feel ill-equipped

00:09:46 ◼   ► this year to offer any kind of prediction about what will be announced at WWDC, but

00:09:52 ◼   ► I feel reasonably well-equipped to talk about what I would like to see and then secondarily

00:09:57 ◼   ► I think Apple should do and then like I said inevitably will say well could they possibly

00:10:01 ◼   ► do this.

00:10:02 ◼   ► All right so we're going to start and we're going to go through software and then we'll

00:10:07 ◼   ► go through hardware and then we'll go through I don't know kind of miscellaneous stuff.

00:10:11 ◼   ► Can I offer an opening statement?

00:10:14 ◼   ► Well since you seem eager to then please proceed.

00:10:16 ◼   ► Well John did.

00:10:17 ◼   ► Someone's ready for the incomparable.

00:10:18 ◼   ► No that's way too intimidating.

00:10:22 ◼   ► Basically I slightly disagree with the hopes and dreams angle of this.

00:10:27 ◼   ► I have kind of prepared my expectations to be things that I would like to happen, but

00:10:32 ◼   ► that I also think will happen. Things that are realistic, that are plausible, that fit

00:10:36 ◼   ► within Apple's recent...

00:10:37 ◼   ► >>

00:10:37 ◼   ► - Hopes and Dreams fits within that.

00:10:39 ◼   ► I'm not saying like you want a hoverboard

00:10:40 ◼   ► or you want them to roll the car out on the stage

00:10:42 ◼   ► and do a donut.

00:10:43 ◼   ► I mean, we're all gonna be within the realm of reason here,

00:10:47 ◼   ► I think.

00:10:48 ◼   ► That was implied, that wasn't clear.

00:10:49 ◼   ► - Right, and I do think, before we get into specifics,

00:10:53 ◼   ► I would say the general trend I expect this year,

00:10:57 ◼   ► what I'm pretty sure will happen,

00:10:59 ◼   ► like overarching themes, the most powerful messages

00:11:02 ◼   ► that are being delivered,

00:11:03 ◼   ► I think we're gonna have a very heavy focus on Siri

00:11:07 ◼   ► first and foremost.

00:11:08 ◼   ► And it's gonna take all sorts of different forms,

00:11:10 ◼   ► which we'll get to down the road.

00:11:11 ◼   ► But heavy focus on Siri,

00:11:13 ◼   ► also a heavy focus on iPad productivity,

00:11:16 ◼   ► and kind of integrated with that, iCloud Drive.

00:11:19 ◼   ► And then I think secondarily, we'll see things like

00:11:23 ◼   ► the iOS potential redesign.

00:11:26 ◼   ► I think the Mac is gonna be kind of mid-range priority,

00:11:30 ◼   ► and then relatively quiet years for watchOS and tvOS.

00:11:36 ◼   ► but really heavy focus everywhere on Siri, number one.

00:11:41 ◼   ► And then iPad productivity and iCloud drive,

00:11:44 ◼   ► like kind of number two.

00:11:46 ◼   ► - So you're predicting that,

00:11:47 ◼   ► but since you're just talking about overall theme,

00:11:50 ◼   ► do you also hope for that?

00:11:52 ◼   ► And secondarily, do you think

00:11:54 ◼   ► that's what Apple should be focusing on?

00:11:56 ◼   ► - Well, it depends.

00:11:57 ◼   ► I mean, this is, not only is this like,

00:12:01 ◼   ► here's all the cool stuff that we've made this year.

00:12:03 ◼   ► But like every Apple event and like every Apple launch,

00:12:06 ◼   ► There is a certain degree of marketing strategy

00:12:09 ◼   ► that goes into how they present things,

00:12:11 ◼   ► what they even present at all,

00:12:12 ◼   ► what they name things, how things are structured.

00:12:16 ◼   ► And I think Apple is facing a very, very strong

00:12:20 ◼   ► competitive force right now on the voice assistant front

00:12:24 ◼   ► from both Google and Amazon and maybe even Microsoft.

00:12:28 ◼   ► That Siri has been criticized for being behind,

00:12:31 ◼   ► most of it rightfully so in various areas here.

00:12:35 ◼   ► Also, Apple doesn't yet have a Siri cylinder/standalone

00:12:40 ◼   ► speaker thing, and we'll get to that,

00:12:42 ◼   ► 'cause that's rumored to possibly be announced this week,

00:12:45 ◼   ► or next week, I guess.

00:12:47 ◼   ► So that might happen, but anyway.

00:12:48 ◼   ► It just seems like Siri is an area in which

00:12:51 ◼   ► kind of the current trend of the tech sphere

00:12:54 ◼   ► that Apple operates in, this is like the hot thing

00:12:57 ◼   ► to be working on, is to have really awesome

00:12:59 ◼   ► voice assistant stuff, and Apple is widely perceived,

00:13:02 ◼   ► mostly fairly as being behind in that area.

00:13:05 ◼   ► So I expect this to be kind of like the way last year,

00:13:08 ◼   ► Apple was perceived to be behind in machine learning,

00:13:12 ◼   ► AI, big data kind of problems.

00:13:14 ◼   ► And so last year, you heard them say machine learning

00:13:18 ◼   ► like a billion times.

00:13:19 ◼   ► They named everything machine learning.

00:13:20 ◼   ► They bragged about how awesome their machine learning was.

00:13:22 ◼   ► It was a hugely driven home talking point.

00:13:25 ◼   ► And it was, everything was kind of marketed around

00:13:28 ◼   ► their version of saying, we are doing machine learning

00:13:30 ◼   ► in this awesome way.

00:13:31 ◼   ► and here's why and here's how we're doing it

00:13:33 ◼   ► and look at all the machine learning we're doing.

00:13:35 ◼   ► Similarly, that's what I think Siri is gonna be this year.

00:13:38 ◼   ► It's gonna be like the overall theme

00:13:40 ◼   ► of basically everything being called Siri,

00:13:43 ◼   ► just like last year where everything

00:13:44 ◼   ► was called machine learning,

00:13:45 ◼   ► everything's gonna be named Siri,

00:13:47 ◼   ► even features that aren't necessarily

00:13:50 ◼   ► what we think of as Siri today.

00:13:51 ◼   ► So like maybe Spotlight will be renamed to Siri.

00:13:56 ◼   ► Maybe search in mail or messages will be renamed to Siri.

00:14:00 ◼   ► who knows, like there could be a lot of angles to this.

00:14:03 ◼   ► I actually think it's possible that HomeKit

00:14:05 ◼   ► will be renamed to Siri.

00:14:07 ◼   ► So you would just say things like,

00:14:08 ◼   ► this light switch works with Siri.

00:14:10 ◼   ► You know, like I think there's a big chance

00:14:12 ◼   ► of stuff like this happening.

00:14:13 ◼   ► That Siri is what Apple is going to be beating us

00:14:16 ◼   ► over the head with this year.

00:14:18 ◼   ► This is gonna be like the talking point theme of the year,

00:14:21 ◼   ► and they're gonna be all about how awesome Siri is,

00:14:24 ◼   ► how far they've come, and how incredibly more advanced

00:14:27 ◼   ► it is than everything else out there.

00:14:28 ◼   ► - I think they're gonna be throwing machine learning

00:14:30 ◼   ► us some more. I don't think Machine Learning's day in the sun is over. Like in addition to Siri,

00:14:34 ◼   ► like, oh, here's the thing about the Siri focus. That, you know, that's what I was getting at with

00:14:37 ◼   ► like, do you, is this something you want to see and do something you think they should do? Well,

00:14:41 ◼   ► so by saying they're behind, and I agree, or they're both perceived to be behind,

00:14:45 ◼   ► and actually are a little behind in a lot of these areas, it's something they should do

00:14:49 ◼   ► if they're actually concerned with keeping up with the Joneses. Many times in history,

00:14:53 ◼   ► Apple seems totally unconcerned with doing the same thing as other companies, as its competitors

00:14:58 ◼   ► are doing. In this situation, because Apple was pretty early out of the gate with Siri,

00:15:02 ◼   ► it's not like they just didn't touch this area at all. They're in it. They're in that market of

00:15:07 ◼   ► smart assistant thing that you talk to, and they were in it very early, and they have a brand and

00:15:11 ◼   ► so on and so forth. So I think it's a situation where they can't say, "Oh, Apple's not interested

00:15:16 ◼   ► in that market," or "We'll enter it when we think there's something." They're already there,

00:15:19 ◼   ► right? They're just behind. So if they can have a Siri focus, I think it is something they should.

00:15:26 ◼   ► if they can means, do they have the APIs and new, you know,

00:15:31 ◼   ► software things to do?

00:15:32 ◼   ► Do they have Siri in a tube or, you know,

00:15:34 ◼   ► like you have to have something behind it.

00:15:36 ◼   ► You can't just sort of float on,

00:15:37 ◼   ► oh, we've made Siri a little bit better

00:15:39 ◼   ► and here's some demos.

00:15:39 ◼   ► You have to have something.

00:15:40 ◼   ► You have to have new APIs, this WWDC,

00:15:43 ◼   ► new ways for apps to integrate it.

00:15:44 ◼   ► A new product would be awesome, right?

00:15:46 ◼   ► And rebranding, you know,

00:15:47 ◼   ► I'm not sure they're gonna ditch HomeKit in that way.

00:15:51 ◼   ► And I don't think they care enough about the Mac

00:15:52 ◼   ► to rebrand any part of it with Siri.

00:15:54 ◼   ► I mean, you know, Mac OS just got Siri recently.

00:15:57 ◼   ► It's like, be happy for a couple of years, Mac OS.

00:15:59 ◼   ► We'll pay attention to you later.

00:16:01 ◼   ► - We'll get there.

00:16:02 ◼   ► - Yeah, I think it is something they should do.

00:16:04 ◼   ► And I think it's also something

00:16:07 ◼   ► that I would want to see them do

00:16:09 ◼   ► because I like, you know, all of us except for Casey,

00:16:12 ◼   ► the holdout, have cylinders in our houses that we talk to.

00:16:15 ◼   ► And I still occasionally talk to Siri on my phone

00:16:19 ◼   ► and other things like that.

00:16:21 ◼   ► And I would love for Siri to get better.

00:16:22 ◼   ► And I would love for there to be other products

00:16:24 ◼   ► and other APIs that incorporate Siri.

00:16:26 ◼   ► Like I said last show, I would like to talk to Overcast

00:16:28 ◼   ► and have it play things for me.

00:16:29 ◼   ► So that kind of Siri kid integration

00:16:31 ◼   ► with that kind of intent would be great as well.

00:16:32 ◼   ► So that theme, you know, and again, this is not,

00:16:35 ◼   ► we haven't delved into the specifics.

00:16:36 ◼   ► We're just saying, broadly speaking, iOS, MacOS,

00:16:38 ◼   ► hardware, software, Siri, machine learning,

00:16:42 ◼   ► that type of thing.

00:16:43 ◼   ► It's maybe not my biggest hope,

00:16:46 ◼   ► well, you know, hopes and dreams for it,

00:16:48 ◼   ► but it is plausible.

00:16:49 ◼   ► It is a thing I think they should do

00:16:51 ◼   ► and I hope they do do it.

00:16:53 ◼   ► - So we might as well actually finish the Siri segment now.

00:16:55 ◼   ► 'Cause I think--

00:16:56 ◼   ► - How are you getting away with this?

00:16:58 ◼   ► John usually stops all over us

00:16:59 ◼   ► if we don't follow the show notes.

00:17:01 ◼   ► - Well, no, because he framed it correctly as a broad,

00:17:03 ◼   ► it cuts across all these things.

00:17:04 ◼   ► We're not talking about just iOS or just macOS

00:17:06 ◼   ► or just hardware, just new products.

00:17:08 ◼   ► It's an overall theme.

00:17:09 ◼   ► He framed it well with his opening statement.

00:17:11 ◼   ► The overall theme of the show, if you come away,

00:17:13 ◼   ► and it is kind of a prediction,

00:17:15 ◼   ► but I've brought it back to, is it something you hope for?

00:17:18 ◼   ► And is it something that you think they should do?

00:17:21 ◼   ► Since I sort of have the mic now, I will say that Siri does not do much for me either way.

00:17:29 ◼   ► It doesn't actively make me angry terribly often, although that certainly happens, and

00:17:33 ◼   ► it doesn't actively help my day terribly often, although that also certainly happens.

00:17:38 ◼   ► So right now I'm pretty uninterested in all of this.

00:17:42 ◼   ► That being said, if history tells me anything, any time I tell you that I am completely underwhelmed

00:17:48 ◼   ► and uninterested in something, which may or may not also be me being nonplussed about

00:17:53 ◼   ► something depending on who you ask.

00:17:56 ◼   ► I always end up becoming the world's biggest fan.

00:17:59 ◼   ► For example, would you wait one moment while I check the time on my beloved Apple Watch?

00:18:04 ◼   ► So we'll see what happens if they do release a Syrian Canister, but sitting here now, I

00:18:10 ◼   ► just don't care.

00:18:12 ◼   ► Not a bit.

00:18:13 ◼   ► Let's talk about the Siri in a canister,

00:18:14 ◼   ► because this is very heavily rumored.

00:18:17 ◼   ► It really does seem like not only is this a real product,

00:18:21 ◼   ► but that this really might be announced next week.

00:18:23 ◼   ► That is what the current most common rumors are saying.

00:18:27 ◼   ► So first of all, I think,

00:18:30 ◼   ► let's assume for the sake of this discussion,

00:18:32 ◼   ► let's assume that this thing is real.

00:18:34 ◼   ► I'm gonna call it the Siri speaker for now,

00:18:37 ◼   ► 'cause I don't even know if it's gonna be cylindrical shape.

00:18:40 ◼   ► If it's gonna have a screen,

00:18:42 ◼   ► A cylinder doesn't really make a lot of sense,

00:18:43 ◼   ► so it might not be cylindrical, who knows?

00:18:46 ◼   ► So I'll call it the Siri speaker.

00:18:47 ◼   ► Although I do think that there's actually a small chance,

00:18:50 ◼   ► kind of a long shot, that it might be Beats branded.

00:18:53 ◼   ► But I think probably not.

00:18:54 ◼   ► I think Siri is the stronger brand for them

00:18:56 ◼   ► and they're gonna wanna use that here.

00:18:59 ◼   ► Or at least that's the one that they want to drive more.

00:19:02 ◼   ► So first of all, the way I picture this project,

00:19:05 ◼   ► if you think through, how would you do things

00:19:08 ◼   ► like configure apps on it?

00:19:10 ◼   ► What kind of apps would there even be on it?

00:19:12 ◼   ► How would you set it up?

00:19:13 ◼   ► What would manage it?

00:19:14 ◼   ► The way that the Amazon family of products does this

00:19:17 ◼   ► is there is a Lady in the Tube named app on your phone.

00:19:22 ◼   ► And it's not that different from Apple's watch app

00:19:26 ◼   ► on the iPhone.

00:19:27 ◼   ► So it's like the companion app for the hardware product,

00:19:29 ◼   ► which means this hardware product

00:19:31 ◼   ► would need to be paired with an iPhone.

00:19:33 ◼   ► That's what I think Apple's gonna do with this product.

00:19:35 ◼   ► I suspect that it's gonna be like,

00:19:37 ◼   ► there's going to be a Siri app,

00:19:39 ◼   ► much like the Amazon Lady Name app,

00:19:42 ◼   ► and this will be like a centralized control panel,

00:19:45 ◼   ► and I do think this is gonna be iOS in general.

00:19:49 ◼   ► Like you're gonna be able to access the Siri app

00:19:51 ◼   ► for other things as well.

00:19:52 ◼   ► Like that could be a centralized control panel

00:19:54 ◼   ► for HomeKit devices, which might be in Siri devices.

00:19:58 ◼   ► Any kind of integrations, apps, et cetera.

00:20:01 ◼   ► I expect that to also then be,

00:20:04 ◼   ► just like the watch app is for the watch,

00:20:06 ◼   ► that'll be how you manage apps and configuration,

00:20:09 ◼   ► you know, advanced configuration of the Siri speaker device.

00:20:13 ◼   ► Because if you have like a small,

00:20:16 ◼   ► you know, it's probably gonna be like a small

00:20:17 ◼   ► OLED screen on there.

00:20:19 ◼   ► And it probably will be a touch screen and everything,

00:20:21 ◼   ► but it's probably gonna be too small and not that great

00:20:23 ◼   ► for things like a full keyboard.

00:20:25 ◼   ► I don't think it's gonna be that size screen.

00:20:27 ◼   ► It's probably gonna be more like small status displays,

00:20:30 ◼   ► maybe for things like timers,

00:20:31 ◼   ► and maybe room for a few buttons,

00:20:33 ◼   ► like a few big touch targets on screen,

00:20:34 ◼   ► but not like, you know, probably bigger than a watch,

00:20:36 ◼   ► but smaller than a phone.

00:20:37 ◼   ► - What makes you think it'll have a screen at all?

00:20:39 ◼   ► Have you read more recent rumors than I have?

00:20:42 ◼   ► - No, but most of the rumors have said

00:20:44 ◼   ► it will have a screen, so I'm inclined

00:20:47 ◼   ► to believe that it will.

00:20:47 ◼   ► I also, having used the Amazon cylinders

00:20:52 ◼   ► without screens all this time,

00:20:55 ◼   ► I do think it would be nicer with a screen

00:20:57 ◼   ► for some basic tasks.

00:20:59 ◼   ► There's still like, you know,

00:21:02 ◼   ► the primary interface will still be voice,

00:21:06 ◼   ► but it's nice to have a screen

00:21:08 ◼   ► as a secondary information output device

00:21:10 ◼   ► or an ambient information output device.

00:21:13 ◼   ► So for things like watching a timer countdown

00:21:16 ◼   ► or displaying the weather all the time

00:21:18 ◼   ► or things like that,

00:21:19 ◼   ► it's nice to have a screen for things like that.

00:21:21 ◼   ► I don't know if they're gonna go full blown

00:21:23 ◼   ► like video screen for video calls the way Amazon has.

00:21:27 ◼   ► I don't know about that,

00:21:28 ◼   ► 'cause that whole idea kind of makes

00:21:31 ◼   ► not that much sense to me.

00:21:32 ◼   ► It's kind of ungraceful and I don't know.

00:21:35 ◼   ► I'm not sure I see Apple,

00:21:36 ◼   ► even though they already have like FaceTime and everything,

00:21:38 ◼   ► I'm not sure I see them doing the video call market

00:21:41 ◼   ► with this device because they already have it

00:21:43 ◼   ► on all their other devices.

00:21:44 ◼   ► But anyway, I do suspect that they're going to have

00:21:48 ◼   ► an iPhone companion app named Siri

00:21:50 ◼   ► that will encompass all this stuff,

00:21:52 ◼   ► probably even replace what is now called the Home app.

00:21:56 ◼   ► That'll be just like the new Home app.

00:21:57 ◼   ► Now it's called Siri and it comps all the stuff

00:21:59 ◼   ► and it lets you manage your Siri cylinder.

00:22:02 ◼   ► I expect the Siri cylinder to be primarily sold

00:22:07 ◼   ► on privacy, the screen itself, and being good

00:22:11 ◼   ► 'cause it will be the first screen,

00:22:12 ◼   ► one of these things to market probably,

00:22:15 ◼   ► or at least it'll be close to Amazon's

00:22:16 ◼   ► that's coming out at the end of this month.

00:22:18 ◼   ► I also expect Apple to push sound quality hard.

00:22:22 ◼   ► Apple still has big foothold in music

00:22:24 ◼   ► and they have a lot of people there who care about music

00:22:26 ◼   ► And frankly, it wouldn't be that hard

00:22:28 ◼   ► to sound better than the Echo.

00:22:29 ◼   ► So I expect them to push sound quality hard.

00:22:31 ◼   ► It is totally possible to sound good in a small enclosure.

00:22:36 ◼   ► And I know that because I have a Sonos Play One speaker

00:22:39 ◼   ► right next to my Echo that I hardly ever use anymore

00:22:42 ◼   ► because it's so much less convenient.

00:22:44 ◼   ► But the Play One is almost the same size as the Echo

00:22:47 ◼   ► and it sounds way better, it's not even close.

00:22:50 ◼   ► And so I know Apple would have the expertise

00:22:52 ◼   ► to develop something really good sounding

00:22:54 ◼   ► in that size class if they want to.

00:22:56 ◼   ► and they probably do want to,

00:22:57 ◼   ► 'cause that could be a great selling point.

00:22:59 ◼   ► I would also suggest that this is also Apple,

00:23:04 ◼   ► and this is also Tim Cook's Apple,

00:23:06 ◼   ► so there is almost no chance

00:23:08 ◼   ► there's gonna be just one of these.

00:23:09 ◼   ► It's probably gonna be like,

00:23:12 ◼   ► the Amazon one with the screen is like 230 bucks,

00:23:15 ◼   ► something like that.

00:23:17 ◼   ► I'm guessing the cheapest one you can buy from Apple

00:23:20 ◼   ► is 300, maybe even more,

00:23:23 ◼   ► and that that's not gonna be the one anybody wants to buy.

00:23:25 ◼   ► that there's gonna be upsell models.

00:23:27 ◼   ► Maybe there'll be different materials, different colors.

00:23:30 ◼   ► Probably there are gonna be things like bigger

00:23:32 ◼   ► or differently specced speakers.

00:23:35 ◼   ► And that's what Sonos does.

00:23:35 ◼   ► They have the small ones, medium, big ones.

00:23:37 ◼   ► And the big ones are really expensive.

00:23:39 ◼   ► Maybe they'll even go as far as to have

00:23:42 ◼   ► different storage tiers like the Apple TV,

00:23:44 ◼   ► but that was kind of my comedy option.

00:23:46 ◼   ► I don't actually believe they're going to do that.

00:23:47 ◼   ► I hope they don't 'cause the actual storage tiers

00:23:50 ◼   ► on the actual Apple TV are a comedy option

00:23:53 ◼   ► that make no sense.

00:23:54 ◼   ► So I hope they've learned and I hope they don't do that here

00:23:57 ◼   ► but I'm guessing like roughly 300 bucks for a base model

00:24:01 ◼   ► but the one you're gonna actually want

00:24:03 ◼   ► is gonna be more than that for some premium reason,

00:24:06 ◼   ► probably better speakers or something like that.

00:24:09 ◼   ► And then otherwise I think, you know,

00:24:13 ◼   ► if it runs, it would make sense for it to run apps

00:24:16 ◼   ► and the way they would probably do that

00:24:17 ◼   ► is very similar to how the watch is doing it.

00:24:20 ◼   ► So the iOS app would be the host/container

00:24:25 ◼   ► and it would have a special extension

00:24:27 ◼   ► that runs on the Siri speaker

00:24:29 ◼   ► and that the companion app would manage

00:24:31 ◼   ► that relationship for you if you wanted

00:24:32 ◼   ► to install or delete them,

00:24:34 ◼   ► but that it would be an iOS extension

00:24:36 ◼   ► that is not running on the phone,

00:24:38 ◼   ► it's running on the speaker,

00:24:39 ◼   ► but it's managed by the parent app on the phone

00:24:42 ◼   ► and by the companion app.

00:24:44 ◼   ► And then my only other kind of long shot on this,

00:24:48 ◼   ► Obviously they're gonna heavily push Apple Music

00:24:50 ◼   ► and music is gonna be, I think,

00:24:51 ◼   ► one of the biggest selling points of this thing.

00:24:53 ◼   ► I think long shot number two, besides the Beats brand,

00:24:57 ◼   ► is that they might even pull a Sonos

00:25:01 ◼   ► and attack them head on and do multi-room audio from day one

00:25:05 ◼   ► which currently, Amazon doesn't do it all yet.

00:25:09 ◼   ► I know Google announced they were going to

00:25:11 ◼   ► but have they actually shipped that yet?

00:25:12 ◼   ► - I don't have the famous idea.

00:25:14 ◼   ► - Jon, you're in charge of Google Home on this show.

00:25:16 ◼   ► - I only have one of them, why would I know?

00:25:18 ◼   ► - I've got a second one, I'm gonna answer the question.

00:25:19 ◼   ► All right, so yeah, I think it would be really cool

00:25:23 ◼   ► if Apple did Sonos multivroom audio.

00:25:26 ◼   ► Now that I've had a Sonos system for a couple of years,

00:25:29 ◼   ► I do really enjoy that, like it's really nice

00:25:31 ◼   ► to have speakers in multiple rooms of your house.

00:25:34 ◼   ► So like when you're doing things around the house,

00:25:36 ◼   ► you can have the same music playing on all of them.

00:25:38 ◼   ► It's really nice.

00:25:39 ◼   ► And the main reason I don't use that anymore

00:25:41 ◼   ► is because it's so much more convenient

00:25:42 ◼   ► to have everything voice controlled.

00:25:44 ◼   ► So if Apple can combine those things,

00:25:46 ◼   ► Amazon, I'm kind of surprised they haven't,

00:25:48 ◼   ► but they haven't.

00:25:49 ◼   ► So if Apple can be the first one to combine those things,

00:25:52 ◼   ► and if they're gonna have a heavy music focus,

00:25:54 ◼   ► and if they're gonna have good speakers in these things

00:25:57 ◼   ► to begin with, that could be a really strong,

00:25:59 ◼   ► competitive advantage, because they're probably

00:26:01 ◼   ► not gonna be as strong with the voice accuracy,

00:26:04 ◼   ► or the reliability, or the speed,

00:26:06 ◼   ► or the third-party integrations.

00:26:08 ◼   ► So they can try to get advantages in other areas

00:26:10 ◼   ► where Apple is strong.

00:26:11 ◼   ► So things like physical design, the UI of the thing,

00:26:16 ◼   ► sound quality, multi-room audio,

00:26:18 ◼   ► major music integration.

00:26:19 ◼   ► That's where I expect Apple to go with this.

00:26:22 ◼   ► - You have such a specific vision

00:26:23 ◼   ► of this entire ecosystem of products

00:26:25 ◼   ► that makes me think you have inside information

00:26:27 ◼   ► that we don't have.

00:26:28 ◼   ► - I, so here's the thing, I don't--

00:26:29 ◼   ► - That's a lot of specifics, that's a lot of specifics.

00:26:32 ◼   ► - No, but I don't, but what I basically did was

00:26:34 ◼   ► I started writing out this note of like,

00:26:36 ◼   ► what I expect this thing might be.

00:26:39 ◼   ► And then I started thinking about,

00:26:39 ◼   ► okay, well, does it run apps?

00:26:42 ◼   ► If it runs apps, where do the apps come from?

00:26:45 ◼   ► And once you're thinking through it,

00:26:47 ◼   ► how might they do this?

00:26:49 ◼   ► - Yeah, no, every one of those things sounds like,

00:26:51 ◼   ► yeah, that's exactly the way they would do it

00:26:53 ◼   ► if they were doing that.

00:26:53 ◼   ► But what I have trouble with is,

00:26:55 ◼   ► you just listed out, if they were to catch up

00:26:57 ◼   ► with everybody on all fronts at once,

00:26:59 ◼   ► this is how they'd do it, and I agree.

00:27:00 ◼   ► I'm pessimistic that they are going to do that.

00:27:05 ◼   ► And what I'm thinking of is,

00:27:07 ◼   ► of all the things you described, it's like,

00:27:08 ◼   ► okay, you're not gonna get all this stuff.

00:27:10 ◼   ► With the first product,

00:27:12 ◼   ► it's gonna concentrate on one area or another.

00:27:13 ◼   ► So for example, one angle could be, again, if this thing is even announced,

00:27:17 ◼   ► WWC, a multi-room audio, no screen, Siri speaker, right?

00:27:22 ◼   ► That alone seems like a version one product from Apple.

00:27:25 ◼   ► Like none of the other things you mentioned are there.

00:27:27 ◼   ► There's no screen, there's no apps.

00:27:28 ◼   ► There's no, you know, home kit, a central home hub thing.

00:27:31 ◼   ► There's no, you know, it's just, it's just Siri speaker.

00:27:34 ◼   ► You can talk to it and it's multi-room audio and that's it.

00:27:37 ◼   ► And they're expensive in this two of them.

00:27:38 ◼   ► Right.

00:27:39 ◼   ► I'm on board with that.

00:27:40 ◼   ► Or it could be a home hub thing,

00:27:42 ◼   ► but then no multi-room audio,

00:27:44 ◼   ► but just like one good speaker in the thing.

00:27:46 ◼   ► Or it could be a little app platform thing

00:27:48 ◼   ► that isn't a speaker, but that, you know, it's like,

00:27:50 ◼   ► I have trouble making myself believe that today's Apple

00:27:53 ◼   ► is going to come out of the gate

00:27:55 ◼   ► with something so comprehensive.

00:27:56 ◼   ► But if they did, like I agree with you,

00:27:58 ◼   ► that if they did attack on all those fronts,

00:28:00 ◼   ► that's probably how they would attack

00:28:02 ◼   ► on every single one of those fronts,

00:28:03 ◼   ► because it's based on, you know,

00:28:05 ◼   ► something they've done before, technology they already have,

00:28:07 ◼   ► things they're already good at,

00:28:09 ◼   ► and enhancements to things that they, you know,

00:28:11 ◼   ► we're obviously assuming enhancements to Siri

00:28:13 ◼   ► to go along with this to make it more capable

00:28:15 ◼   ► just in general, right?

00:28:16 ◼   ► - Well, but what I'm describing is a smaller scale

00:28:21 ◼   ► than the first version of the Apple Watch.

00:28:23 ◼   ► And it's way easier to make

00:28:24 ◼   ► 'cause it's this big chunky thing.

00:28:26 ◼   ► - The Apple Watch was so incredibly hyped and rumored

00:28:29 ◼   ► that it was like the, you know,

00:28:30 ◼   ► and it just, the Apple Watch came out

00:28:33 ◼   ► and it did do all those things all at once,

00:28:34 ◼   ► but the lead up to it matched that.

00:28:38 ◼   ► Like it was not, I mean, they, what they, they built that whole temporary thing

00:28:41 ◼   ► and had this giant special event for it.

00:28:43 ◼   ► And we all knew it was coming.

00:28:44 ◼   ► It was just like, and what is it going to be?

00:28:46 ◼   ► Is it going to be a holographic wrist thing that floats on it?

00:28:48 ◼   ► Like it was just, it was out of control.

00:28:50 ◼   ► Right.

00:28:51 ◼   ► And they did do a really good job on it.

00:28:53 ◼   ► And you know, they figured out the software eventually too.

00:28:54 ◼   ► But the series stuff is like, I wonder if Apple will ever have a tube thing.

00:28:59 ◼   ► Yeah, maybe.

00:28:59 ◼   ► Oh, I hear it might be WWC.

00:29:01 ◼   ► Maybe we'll have a screen.

00:29:02 ◼   ► Maybe it won't probably have a speaker.

00:29:03 ◼   ► Cool.

00:29:04 ◼   ► Like, like it's getting back to like the scope of like Apple could make a really

00:29:07 ◼   ► a good Bluetooth speaker, as I think I said

00:29:08 ◼   ► a couple of shows ago.

00:29:09 ◼   ► It's like, yeah, they could, if they felt like it, right?

00:29:12 ◼   ► And you're like, no, Apple can dominate this whole market

00:29:15 ◼   ► by doing everything super awesome way

00:29:17 ◼   ► and just charging us twice as much.

00:29:18 ◼   ► - Well, no, I didn't say that.

00:29:20 ◼   ► I didn't say that because there are gonna be major areas

00:29:22 ◼   ► of this that Apple's not gonna be competitive on

00:29:24 ◼   ► because it's all based on Siri.

00:29:26 ◼   ► And there are major areas that Siri isn't competitive on.

00:29:28 ◼   ► Things like speed, reliability,

00:29:30 ◼   ► and certain levels of intelligence.

00:29:31 ◼   ► - Well, and again, the underlying premise is that

00:29:35 ◼   ► this comes along with a new and improved version of Siri.

00:29:38 ◼   ► Like, that Siri in this tube is better

00:29:40 ◼   ► than Siri in all other places.

00:29:41 ◼   ► And it's an interesting question of whether,

00:29:43 ◼   ► say they even do that.

00:29:43 ◼   ► - Oh, I don't believe that at all.

00:29:44 ◼   ► I think it's gonna be exactly the same Siri.

00:29:47 ◼   ► - You think so?

00:29:47 ◼   ► I mean, at the very least, I would hope

00:29:48 ◼   ► that it would hear me better than the microphones

00:29:50 ◼   ► in a watch or in the phone,

00:29:52 ◼   ► just because they've got more room for more microphones,

00:29:53 ◼   ► right? - Well, it might,

00:29:54 ◼   ► but honestly, I don't have much problem

00:29:57 ◼   ► with Siri hearing me properly.

00:29:58 ◼   ► Like, the words that I say

00:29:59 ◼   ► are usually transcribed very accurately.

00:30:02 ◼   ► It's what they do afterwards.

00:30:03 ◼   ► That's usually the problem.

00:30:04 ◼   ► I have some trouble with activations, but yeah, but like on the Siri tube speaker screen,

00:30:12 ◼   ► whatever thing, I'm currently filing this in the category of a thing that I totally

00:30:18 ◼   ► believe Apple has worked on and may still be working on, but that it would not shock

00:30:23 ◼   ► me if there was no dedicated Siri related hardware announced at WWDC.

00:30:30 ◼   ► So I'm not pinning my hopes on this being a WWDC, even if it's a thing they're working

00:30:35 ◼   ► on, even if they are going to ship it later, I don't know.

00:30:40 ◼   ► Just think of the Apple TV that missed WWDC, remember when that happened?

00:30:43 ◼   ► Like the new Apple TV and they were going to have it for everybody and it just didn't

00:30:45 ◼   ► quite make it, right?

00:30:46 ◼   ► So I'm putting this in that bin right now, which would be a shame, but looking down the

00:30:51 ◼   ► list of the rest of the things, I still feel like they would have enough stuff to make

00:30:53 ◼   ► a good keynote without any serious stuff.

00:30:57 ◼   ► And if they did have it, would they save it for the end?

00:31:01 ◼   ► Is that the biggest announcement that they save towards the end slot where the good stuff

00:31:05 ◼   ► comes?

00:31:06 ◼   ► They obviously lead with WatchOS and macOS updates and then build up to the stuff that

00:31:09 ◼   ► we really care about, right?

00:31:11 ◼   ► And this is the last thing?

00:31:14 ◼   ► I guess we'll find out.

00:31:15 ◼   ► But anyway, that's how I feel about the Siri thing in terms of predictions, that it will

00:31:18 ◼   ► be more constrained than all the things that Marco listed and that I would not be shocked

00:31:23 ◼   ► if it didn't appear.

00:31:24 ◼   ► And I'm not going to -- and honestly, if everything else comes out, everything else has reasonably

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00:33:43 ◼   ► (upbeat music)

00:33:47 ◼   ► - All right, so I'm sorry boss, what are we doing right now?

00:33:49 ◼   ► - iOS, iOS, 'cause we're going for the biggest,

00:33:51 ◼   ► I feel like now, please Marco wanted to go right

00:33:53 ◼   ► for the dessert and talk about the Siri,

00:33:55 ◼   ► which is like the new hardware, new product category,

00:33:57 ◼   ► like the most, probably the most exciting thing

00:33:59 ◼   ► that could be announced at WWDC.

00:34:02 ◼   ► Introducing a new product category

00:34:04 ◼   ► that Apple was in before, a thing that rarely happens.

00:34:06 ◼   ► We did that one and I feel like iOS

00:34:08 ◼   ► is the next biggest possible announcement,

00:34:11 ◼   ► because there's a lot of rumors and ideas around

00:34:17 ◼   ► iOS not just improving its capabilities, improving capabilities of the iPad and adding features

00:34:23 ◼   ► that people have wanted and getting back on the bandwagon of advancing iOS, but also the

00:34:30 ◼   ► possibility that major foundational interface paradigms in iOS could be rethought, particularly

00:34:37 ◼   ► about how applications deal with files and drag and drop, which drag and drop is not

00:34:43 ◼   ► at all, and files is in a way that is not like the old way where there was no access

00:34:49 ◼   ► to the file system, but is kind of this awkward middle ground.

00:34:52 ◼   ► So there's a lot of rumors surrounding that.

00:34:55 ◼   ► And again, when we say file system, we don't mean like the literal file system, which is

00:34:58 ◼   ► APFS now, yay.

00:35:00 ◼   ► But like in terms of file management, there's a lot of rumors about that.

00:35:04 ◼   ► Any and all of those things are significant for iOS.

00:35:08 ◼   ► And most of it, I feel like, is focused on sort of the high end of iOS, the devices that

00:35:12 ◼   ► are big and fast and have a lot of memory, not so much on your phones, like what is this

00:35:18 ◼   ► going to do about your phones, more about like, hey, I've got this big powerful 12.5

00:35:23 ◼   ► inch iPad Pro with the stylus, but multitasking hasn't changed much in many years and there's

00:35:30 ◼   ► no drag and drop and dealing with files is still kind of a pain.

00:35:34 ◼   ► And for many years there have been rumors about that being rejiggered, but this certainly

00:35:39 ◼   ► seems like the year when the announcement, kind of like iOS 8, where the announcements

00:35:43 ◼   ► for iOS will be things that have been a long time coming that are super impressive that

00:35:47 ◼   ► people look at and say, "A, this is going to change how I use my iOS device in a positive

00:35:52 ◼   ► way," and developers are going to say, "B, I can't wait to add support for that for my

00:35:55 ◼   ► application," which is a perfect fit for WWDC. iOS is the glory OS, and they can start adding,

00:36:02 ◼   ► for lack of a better word, pro features to iOS. The crowd will love it. Developers will

00:36:06 ◼   ► love it. Users will love it.

00:36:07 ◼   ► Yeah, I don't know what to make of all that. I was asked by a friend of the show, Steven Hackett, to do a piece for his members' newsletter.

00:36:16 ◼   ► And so I wrote a piece that I'll eventually post on my website, but probably not for a few weeks, about why I think that the iOS--or the iOS, geez, the iPad is not for me anymore.

00:36:27 ◼   ► And since I just made this public declaration that the iPad is not for me anymore

00:36:33 ◼   ► I expect that whatever is done at WWDC this year will make me go crawling

00:36:38 ◼   ► Directly back to the iPad and tell everyone about how I never doubted the iPad and the iPad has always been the thing for me

00:36:45 ◼   ► But I think it's obvious that this is going to be a year. That's heavy on iPad

00:36:50 ◼   ► I think I think it's possible that Federico Vatici smile may not fit through the doors on the way out of the keynote

00:36:57 ◼   ► note, which to me, truth be told, is a good thing. I don't dislike the iPad, I just feel

00:37:04 ◼   ► like I'm neutered, or not neutered maybe, but handcuffed is a better word for it, handcuffed

00:37:08 ◼   ► by it. And so if a lot of the pain points that I have when using the iPad went away,

00:37:19 ◼   ► that would be really great. But to come back to the ostensible point of all this, which

00:37:23 ◼   ► is Hopes and Dreams. I do Hope and Dream for a better Siri API. I think it would be somewhat

00:37:30 ◼   ► useful for what I do at my day job, but I think it would be super useful for things

00:37:35 ◼   ► like Overcast. There's been many times that I've wanted to say, you know, "Hey, Dingus,

00:37:41 ◼   ► play," I don't know, "Fatal Error in Overcast," or something like that. Or, you know, "Hey,

00:37:46 ◼   ► Dingus, play Dubai Friday in Overcast." And having the ability to do that would be really,

00:37:50 ◼   ► really awesome.

00:37:53 ◼   ► I'm a little disappointed that Swift is open source in that, as far as I know, a lot of

00:38:02 ◼   ► the things that I want from Swift aren't happening because if they were happening, I would know

00:38:07 ◼   ► them because open source.

00:38:09 ◼   ► And so I'm hopeful that maybe some stuff has been happening behind the scenes that is Swift-specific.

00:38:15 ◼   ► I've been yearning for reflection, I've been yearning for async/await.

00:38:20 ◼   ► There's a bunch of other things that I've wanted

00:38:21 ◼   ► that I can't think of off the top of my head,

00:38:23 ◼   ► but every indication is that I'm not getting

00:38:26 ◼   ► any of those things because if I was,

00:38:27 ◼   ► I would know about it because open source.

00:38:29 ◼   ► However, that being said, any improvements to Xcode

00:38:32 ◼   ► to make writing Swift a little better,

00:38:36 ◼   ► to make using Swift a little better would be great.

00:38:39 ◼   ► And I know that's tangentially related to iOS,

00:38:42 ◼   ► but that is what-- - Very, very tangentially.

00:38:45 ◼   ► - Well, it's good.

00:38:47 ◼   ► - I was gonna say, I ran you in,

00:38:50 ◼   ► but I will allow you to make the bold prediction

00:38:51 ◼   ► that there will be a new version of Xcode announced at WWDC.

00:38:54 ◼   ► - No, no, no, no, but I want to see,

00:38:57 ◼   ► like as an example, they added,

00:38:59 ◼   ► I forget the official term for the feature,

00:39:01 ◼   ► but like the memory graph visualizer,

00:39:04 ◼   ► and they added the reveal clone, which is also excellent.

00:39:08 ◼   ► And those are great, but that's sort of a change

00:39:11 ◼   ► is not what I'm looking for.

00:39:13 ◼   ► What I'm looking for is something that makes

00:39:15 ◼   ► writing Swift better and easier,

00:39:18 ◼   ► like being able to refactor Swift code.

00:39:21 ◼   ► Like the fact that we can't do that

00:39:23 ◼   ► is kind of preposterous now.

00:39:25 ◼   ► And I've been talking to some people at work about Kotlin,

00:39:29 ◼   ► about some of these other languages,

00:39:30 ◼   ► about the way .NET matured.

00:39:33 ◼   ► And if you look at the differences in .NET

00:39:35 ◼   ► over the same stretch of time as Swift has had,

00:39:38 ◼   ► I feel like C#,

00:39:40 ◼   ► but maybe I should use C# rather than .NET,

00:39:42 ◼   ► C# moved way, way quicker.

00:39:45 ◼   ► And I wish that Swift could pick up the pace a little bit,

00:39:49 ◼   ► which is funny because maybe the only way

00:39:50 ◼   ► for them to pick up the pace a little bit

00:39:52 ◼   ► might be to take away some of the community involvement

00:39:55 ◼   ► and make it more dictatorial rather than democratic.

00:39:59 ◼   ► But anyway, I digress.

00:40:00 ◼   ► The point I'm driving at--

00:40:01 ◼   ► - I don't think that's gonna go faster.

00:40:02 ◼   ► You really think C# moved faster?

00:40:04 ◼   ► Like did it have backwards incompatible syntax changes

00:40:08 ◼   ► as rapidly as Swift did?

00:40:09 ◼   ► Because I feel like that was unprecedented.

00:40:11 ◼   ► - No, I mean, generally it was additive

00:40:14 ◼   ► any time that C#, I mean, it wasn't always,

00:40:16 ◼   ► but generally my recollection is it was always additive.

00:40:18 ◼   ► And there were always humongous features

00:40:22 ◼   ► in pretty much every version.

00:40:23 ◼   ► Like I don't remember the exact history offhand,

00:40:25 ◼   ► but 1.1 didn't have generics, then 2.0 had generics,

00:40:28 ◼   ► that's when the language actually got usable.

00:40:31 ◼   ► I forget what 3.0 brought, but then when you had link,

00:40:34 ◼   ► and then you had async/await, and so there's been consistent.

00:40:36 ◼   ► - But you're up to, by that,

00:40:38 ◼   ► Swift is in the three to four stage now, right?

00:40:41 ◼   ► - I'm talking in terms of equivalent calendar time though,

00:40:43 ◼   ► Maybe I'm misremembering.

00:40:44 ◼   ► Maybe I'm wrong.

00:40:45 ◼   ► - Yeah, I think you have to check those calendar days

00:40:46 ◼   ► 'cause I think actually what has been moving pretty quickly

00:40:48 ◼   ► and I think it took a long time for C#,

00:40:50 ◼   ► check the timelines.

00:40:52 ◼   ► I feel like C# moved at a similar rate

00:40:54 ◼   ► but didn't break syntax as much

00:40:56 ◼   ► and went for longer until it got,

00:40:59 ◼   ► certainly before it got async await

00:41:01 ◼   ► and maybe even before it got link.

00:41:04 ◼   ► - Yeah, I don't remember off the top of my head

00:41:06 ◼   ► when link came out, but it was,

00:41:09 ◼   ► It has always been, to my eyes, moving quicker than Swift.

00:41:17 ◼   ► So Link was released as a major part of .NET 3.5 in '07.

00:41:21 ◼   ► So 2000, 2001-ish was .NET 1.1.

00:41:25 ◼   ► 2006 years.

00:41:26 ◼   ► Swift hasn't been out for six years.

00:41:28 ◼   ► That's true.

00:41:29 ◼   ► That's a fair point.

00:41:30 ◼   ► It seems more compressed because it's in the past.

00:41:33 ◼   ► And maybe ID is coming along better.

00:41:34 ◼   ► But yeah, I think--

00:41:35 ◼   ► Oh, it's the truth.

00:41:36 ◼   ► So I expect, obviously, there to be new version of Xcode.

00:41:40 ◼   ► And some of those things that you talked about

00:41:43 ◼   ► feel like they should be coming around this time

00:41:45 ◼   ► as Apple turns the giant ship that is its DevTools division

00:41:49 ◼   ► slowly but surely over a multi-year period entirely

00:41:51 ◼   ► towards Swift.

00:41:53 ◼   ► Still no ABI compatibility.

00:41:55 ◼   ► We're still waiting on that.

00:41:56 ◼   ► But that's, as many people point out,

00:41:57 ◼   ► every time we bring this up, is more of a concern for Apple

00:41:59 ◼   ► than it is for developers, people

00:42:01 ◼   ► say, who don't mind shipping slightly

00:42:02 ◼   ► larger than normal applications, which I guess is everybody,

00:42:05 ◼   ► the App Store. But things like refactoring and other features that

00:42:09 ◼   ► like aren't available for Swift but have been available in some limited form for

00:42:14 ◼   ► Objective-C or seem like they'll be reasonably easy to do given that the

00:42:20 ◼   ► entire IDE is built on the same compiler platform as the language and so on and

00:42:23 ◼   ► so forth that uh yeah I expect people to be happy with with the features they get

00:42:29 ◼   ► there but honestly it seems to me from looking at those public mailing lists and

00:42:33 ◼   ► everything, that there is still a pretty big emphasis on the basics, you know, compile

00:42:41 ◼   ► quickly, correctly without crashing, you know, that type of stuff, that maybe they're still

00:42:47 ◼   ► not quite in a position to start giving you all the frills that you want, and that's probably

00:42:50 ◼   ► the best place for them to be concentrating.

00:42:52 ◼   ► You know, they're getting more serious about source compatibility now, and every developer

00:42:56 ◼   ► there wants their thing to compile in a sane amount of time, and they don't want the compiler

00:43:00 ◼   ► to crash and they don't want there to be bugs.

00:43:03 ◼   ► We're kind of think we're coming out of that phase for Swift slowly but surely and maybe

00:43:07 ◼   ► they'll have some things to brag about.

00:43:08 ◼   ► Like look, I don't know, they usually don't brag about how many times Xcode crashes, but

00:43:11 ◼   ► they will brag about compile times.

00:43:12 ◼   ► "Hey look, you enable whole module optimization and compile this big project and it was garbage

00:43:17 ◼   ► in the past version, but the new WWDC beta version is like 10 times faster and everybody

00:43:21 ◼   ► cheers."

00:43:22 ◼   ► It's always a crowd pleaser, WWDC, compile times.

00:43:26 ◼   ► But in terms of like iOS directly, shrug, I don't know.

00:43:31 ◼   ► And like there's nothing I can think of that I can point to that really grinds my gears

00:43:37 ◼   ► on a daily basis.

00:43:39 ◼   ► And I think that's largely because I don't use the iPad very much at all.

00:43:44 ◼   ► So do you think, so you know, if you're not an iPad user or we're setting aside the iPad

00:43:47 ◼   ► where we think Apple needs to do stuff and they will do stuff, I think that if they're

00:43:53 ◼   ► rethinking how applications deal with and share their data.

00:43:58 ◼   ► Not the drag and drop business, because on a phone you still just got one app on the

00:44:01 ◼   ► screen at the same time, probably.

00:44:02 ◼   ► Although, who knows what the hell they'll do with the giant phone.

00:44:06 ◼   ► But if they change how apps deal with data, that could surface itself on the phone.

00:44:12 ◼   ► I'm trying to think if that would change something about how we use the phone, right?

00:44:18 ◼   ► Because that wouldn't be a paradigm that only changes on the iPad.

00:44:21 ◼   ► It would change everywhere across iOS.

00:44:23 ◼   ► And if they have a good idea about how to do it,

00:44:25 ◼   ► that would change the way we all use our phones

00:44:28 ◼   ► in some small way.

00:44:28 ◼   ► I imagine maybe even--

00:44:30 ◼   ► god, I don't know.

00:44:31 ◼   ► I was trying to think of what do we do with our phones?

00:44:33 ◼   ► We deal with photos a lot, but we don't deal with them

00:44:35 ◼   ► as files.

00:44:35 ◼   ► We deal with them as these abstract things.

00:44:37 ◼   ► So yeah, I'm also struggling to think of any specific thing

00:44:42 ◼   ► that they desperately need to do on the phone specifically

00:44:45 ◼   ► to iOS.

00:44:46 ◼   ► But I'm sure there will be something.

00:44:48 ◼   ► And obviously, you know, neat new small features,

00:44:51 ◼   ► performance improvements, you know, bug fixes,

00:44:53 ◼   ► all sorts of stuff like that,

00:44:55 ◼   ► but we're not really counting those.

00:44:56 ◼   ► But yeah, I feel like this will be,

00:44:58 ◼   ► this will be a pro year for iOS

00:45:01 ◼   ► if all the rumors are to be believed,

00:45:02 ◼   ► and it should be, because that's where iOS

00:45:06 ◼   ► needs the most attention.

00:45:08 ◼   ► - Yeah, I mean, I would say that, you know,

00:45:10 ◼   ► all the rumblings we've heard about the iPad

00:45:14 ◼   ► productivity enhancements do sound very plausible.

00:45:17 ◼   ► I think a lot of it could come to the phone.

00:45:19 ◼   ► I mean, some of the stuff like side by side multitasking

00:45:22 ◼   ► obviously won't be coming from the phone in all likelihood,

00:45:25 ◼   ► but they could do drag and drop.

00:45:27 ◼   ► What if they did some kind of thing,

00:45:29 ◼   ► this is just totally random that I just thought of right now,

00:45:31 ◼   ► but what if they did some kind of thing where

00:45:33 ◼   ► if you force pressed on a selected piece of content, say,

00:45:38 ◼   ► then you got something kind of like what Exposé on the Mac

00:45:41 ◼   ► is where it kind of zooms out to a grid

00:45:46 ◼   ► of the last couple of most recently used apps

00:45:48 ◼   ► and you can drop it onto one of them

00:45:50 ◼   ► and then that pops in and you can drop on

00:45:52 ◼   ► onto a specific part of the app.

00:45:53 ◼   ► There are ways to do it on the phone.

00:45:56 ◼   ► I'm not saying they will do this

00:45:57 ◼   ► or this may even be a terrible idea.

00:45:59 ◼   ► I just thought of it now.

00:46:00 ◼   ► So I haven't thought this through, so could be terrible.

00:46:03 ◼   ► But they could totally do drag and drop

00:46:07 ◼   ► and inter-app communication and data sharing

00:46:11 ◼   ► without actually having side-by-side multitasking

00:46:14 ◼   ► where the screen is too small, like on the iPhone.

00:46:17 ◼   ► So I wouldn't rule that out,

00:46:19 ◼   ► but I would just say in general,

00:46:21 ◼   ► I'm very excited to see if the rumors

00:46:23 ◼   ► are to be believed here,

00:46:24 ◼   ► the elevation of iCloud Drive probably,

00:46:29 ◼   ► into the desktop or the document's folder for iOS.

00:46:34 ◼   ► And that is a really, I think since the dawn of iOS,

00:46:42 ◼   ► there has been this constant fight within Apple,

00:46:47 ◼   ► probably from what we've heard,

00:46:49 ◼   ► spearheaded by Steve Jobs personally,

00:46:51 ◼   ► and possibly even Forstall,

00:46:53 ◼   ► and kind of that line of thought

00:46:54 ◼   ► of trying to get rid of having to deal with files.

00:46:59 ◼   ► They have worked so hard to get rid of files,

00:47:03 ◼   ► because files are the old way of doing things,

00:47:05 ◼   ► and people find them confusing them,

00:47:06 ◼   ► whatever else, whatever else.

00:47:07 ◼   ► Files have problems just like everything else.

00:47:10 ◼   ► But I think what we've found over the years

00:47:12 ◼   ► is that people understand files better than Apple

00:47:16 ◼   ► gave them credit for, and that so much of work

00:47:20 ◼   ► that people do on computing devices

00:47:23 ◼   ► really comes down to dealing with files.

00:47:25 ◼   ► And no matter what you try to do with the app model,

00:47:28 ◼   ► with having these little containers that the apps work,

00:47:31 ◼   ► that use their own data,

00:47:31 ◼   ► that's kind of like file-less architecture,

00:47:34 ◼   ► or that you kind of hide the files

00:47:38 ◼   ► in these little dark places,

00:47:39 ◼   ► like the document picker that we have now,

00:47:41 ◼   ► and you kind of reluctantly deal with files

00:47:44 ◼   ► as the system.

00:47:46 ◼   ► I think what we found over these eight or whatever years

00:47:49 ◼   ► that we've had the iPad, that we've had iOS, 10 years, wow.

00:47:53 ◼   ► Geez, been a long time.

00:47:54 ◼   ► No, 11, oh my God.

00:47:57 ◼   ► Anyway, all these years that we've had iOS,

00:47:59 ◼   ► I think what we found is that files are here to stay.

00:48:03 ◼   ► That we can reduce the ways we deal with files,

00:48:07 ◼   ► we can design apps that don't need to deal with files,

00:48:10 ◼   ► and maybe that should even be the default way

00:48:12 ◼   ► most apps are designed, depending on what they do,

00:48:15 ◼   ► but that we can't get rid of files,

00:48:17 ◼   ► that they're here to stay, that people use them,

00:48:20 ◼   ► that they aren't necessarily even bad.

00:48:24 ◼   ► For many types of work, that is less bad

00:48:28 ◼   ► than the alternatives that we've been trying to shove

00:48:30 ◼   ► down people's throats for the last decade.

00:48:32 ◼   ► So maybe this is finally the time when Apple

00:48:35 ◼   ► has finally embraced files on iOS,

00:48:38 ◼   ► because everything they've done prior to this

00:48:40 ◼   ► has really not been that.

00:48:41 ◼   ► It's really been like reluctant, back alley stuff.

00:48:45 ◼   ► Now, like, from what we, if what we've heard is at all true,

00:48:50 ◼   ► it sounds like they have finally taken the step

00:48:53 ◼   ► of making files easier to work with on iOS.

00:48:57 ◼   ► - Yeah, that's definitely the rumor,

00:48:59 ◼   ► but I feel like they already took a big step

00:49:02 ◼   ► in that direction when they adopted a modified version

00:49:06 ◼   ► of the Dropbox model with iCal drive.

00:49:08 ◼   ► Like that was a big change.

00:49:09 ◼   ► That was kind of, and not that I agree

00:49:11 ◼   ► that it didn't solve the problem in the same way,

00:49:13 ◼   ► but that was the turning point, I feel like,

00:49:14 ◼   ► where you could see from the outside,

00:49:16 ◼   ► you could see aha, inside the company,

00:49:19 ◼   ► the argument that you just described,

00:49:20 ◼   ► like the supposed jobs forced opposition

00:49:23 ◼   ► totally against files that the tide had turned, right?

00:49:26 ◼   ► Obviously they couldn't come out at that point and say,

00:49:28 ◼   ► "Oh, we've revamped the entire way

00:49:30 ◼   ► "we deal with files in iOS."

00:49:31 ◼   ► Like it took a while.

00:49:32 ◼   ► And a lot of these things, by the way,

00:49:33 ◼   ► a lot of the iOS rumored things,

00:49:35 ◼   ► A lot of them are like, "Oh, that was almost ready for iOS 10 and didn't quite make it."

00:49:40 ◼   ► Like, they have been a long time coming.

00:49:41 ◼   ► Some of them could have in theory almost made it to iOS 10, but they have just, you know,

00:49:45 ◼   ► they've missed releases and so they've built up and so now it's all landing now.

00:49:48 ◼   ► But iCloud Drive did come out.

00:49:49 ◼   ► It came out to the Mac and iOS, and it did change away a lot of applications.

00:49:53 ◼   ► You do things, and you mentioned like the Dropbox picker, which that was something unheard

00:49:56 ◼   ► of in the early days of iOS.

00:49:58 ◼   ► So this could be like the coming out party for a strategy that was embarked upon multiple

00:50:03 ◼   ► years ago and now finally comes to fruition.

00:50:07 ◼   ► And in terms of the files, every time I think about different ways of dealing with files

00:50:10 ◼   ► that are not actual files or not actual file systems and stuff like that, I think a little

00:50:14 ◼   ► bit about Google's take on this, which I know is different because all their stuff is in

00:50:19 ◼   ► the cloud, but what's the difference between files and documents?

00:50:23 ◼   ► Well, there's not really any difference.

00:50:25 ◼   ► It's just alternate ways of viewing the same thing.

00:50:27 ◼   ► But it's the way Google is pretty relentless about dealing with documents and documents

00:50:34 ◼   ► that are organized into things that look like little folders, but at no point are there

00:50:37 ◼   ► anything – is there any abstraction that is identifiable as a file, really?

00:50:41 ◼   ► I mean, even when they give you like a list view, like – in my experience using Google

00:50:46 ◼   ► Docs and Google Sheets and all that, Google Presentations and Google Drive at work with

00:50:51 ◼   ► with a bunch of other people, seeing how other people

00:50:53 ◼   ► both talk about and deal with documents, Google documents,

00:50:58 ◼   ► is subtly different than how they talk about

00:51:02 ◼   ► and deal with files, because we do have shared drives

00:51:05 ◼   ► with files and everything.

00:51:06 ◼   ► And I'm not sure one way is better than the other,

00:51:08 ◼   ► but Google has made a pretty convincing case for me

00:51:12 ◼   ► that dealing with things like documents,

00:51:16 ◼   ► even with awkward, weird, shareable URLs,

00:51:19 ◼   ► but the URLs that still work, even if you quote unquote

00:51:22 ◼   ► move the documents to a different quote unquote folder,

00:51:24 ◼   ► like it's weird, it's like this weird half measure

00:51:27 ◼   ► that I don't think is appropriate for iOS.

00:51:28 ◼   ► But it shows me that there is,

00:51:30 ◼   ► that it is possible to have a middle path

00:51:33 ◼   ► that people find at least as usable and in some aspects

00:51:37 ◼   ► better than the old way of dealing with files.

00:51:39 ◼   ► Obviously the multi-user collaboration helps tremendously

00:51:43 ◼   ► to, I think it bounces off the awkwardness

00:51:46 ◼   ► of like the people would, in the grand scheme of things,

00:51:48 ◼   ► people probably would rather be dealing with files and folders, but because Google does

00:51:52 ◼   ► so well with live multiple person editing and permissioning on documents, that makes

00:51:57 ◼   ► a group of people like a company who are working on files together forgive a whole bunch of

00:52:00 ◼   ► other things.

00:52:01 ◼   ► Unfortunately, I don't feel like Apple can bring that.

00:52:05 ◼   ► If history is shown, Apple cannot bring the seamless multi-user editing of all data types

00:52:12 ◼   ► with constant synchronization in the cloud, a source of truth, and blah, blah, blah, blah,

00:52:15 ◼   ► in the style that Google does.

00:52:16 ◼   ► So they have to bring something else.

00:52:20 ◼   ► And this is probably a bad time for me to be pondering the future of an iCloud Drive-style

00:52:27 ◼   ► revolution for the entirety of iOS, bringing it more in line with—enhancing its capabilities

00:52:33 ◼   ► by taking the shackles off and not confining to a very simple paradigm, because I just

00:52:37 ◼   ► got done today reading a sad tweet thread from our friend CGP Grey about his battles

00:52:43 ◼   ► with iCloud Drive and the amount of free spaces Mac thinks he has, and also Marco with his

00:52:48 ◼   ► potentially exhausted file descriptors, which may or may not be attributable to this.

00:52:52 ◼   ► All this is to say that, at least on the Mac, iCloud Drive is still in the doghouse as far

00:52:59 ◼   ► as I'm concerned, and I kind of don't relish that paradigm expanding much more until reliability

00:53:07 ◼   ► gets better.

00:53:08 ◼   ► But on iOS, I have to confess I haven't had any of those problems on iOS, and in iOS everything

00:53:13 ◼   ► is much more locked down and maybe it will be fine.

00:53:16 ◼   ► But the thing you described, Marco,

00:53:18 ◼   ► with the force press and the dragging onto things,

00:53:20 ◼   ► if, like you were talking about dragging data, right?

00:53:25 ◼   ► - Yeah.

00:53:26 ◼   ► - But if there is any kind of file picker interface,

00:53:28 ◼   ► some way to grab one of those documents or files

00:53:33 ◼   ► or whatever and bring it somewhere seems like a necessity.

00:53:37 ◼   ► And obviously that interface you described

00:53:39 ◼   ► works even better on a big screen,

00:53:41 ◼   ► because then you've got the second hand to swipe.

00:53:42 ◼   ► Like that's the whole problem with like, once you've grabbed it, quote, unquote,

00:53:45 ◼   ► grabbed it, what if the thing you want to drag it to isn't there because it does

00:53:49 ◼   ► the grid of things like then you have to do like, it's, it's the springboard

00:53:53 ◼   ► re-arranging problem.

00:53:53 ◼   ► Like when you grab a thing to rearrange springboard and it's, and you want to

00:53:56 ◼   ► rearrange it to a different screen, you got to drag it to the edge and hold it

00:53:58 ◼   ► there.

00:53:59 ◼   ► And it's generally, it's an operation that people find awkward and unsatisfying.

00:54:03 ◼   ► Whereas if you can grab it on your iPad, but with your other hand, swipe around to

00:54:08 ◼   ► find the thing you want to drag it on top of that works on a phone, it works less

00:54:11 ◼   ► well.

00:54:12 ◼   ► So I almost think that that interface you described, A, will almost certainly be a part

00:54:15 ◼   ► of a bunch of demos, even if it's not files or data, but just like, there has to be some

00:54:20 ◼   ► kind of grab a file and then zoom in or out to a different view and put it on something

00:54:25 ◼   ► else.

00:54:26 ◼   ► It can't just be side by side, at least I feel that way.

00:54:27 ◼   ► There could even be some kind of little like shelf thing to kind of temporarily hold it

00:54:30 ◼   ► while you use your other, while you use the same hand to pick the destination.

00:54:34 ◼   ► Right.

00:54:35 ◼   ► But I almost think that interface is actually better suited to a bigger screen.

00:54:38 ◼   ► It's not as though they won't do it on a smaller one.

00:54:40 ◼   ► In fact, they have no choice but to do it on a smaller one, because like I said, you

00:54:42 ◼   ► can't split it.

00:54:43 ◼   ► And even a shelf on a smaller one, it's like, well, an iPhone 5 or iPhone SE, whatever the

00:54:48 ◼   ► hell that thing is called, you're going to have room for a shelf to put?

00:54:51 ◼   ► I don't know.

00:54:53 ◼   ► But I'm kind of excited about, like I said, the coming out party of this file-based paradigm,

00:54:58 ◼   ► because – and I think there's also no guarantee that it will be the solution everyone seeks.

00:55:03 ◼   ► Obviously nerds will love it way better, but we'll see.

00:55:07 ◼   ► Again, with my experience with Google products,

00:55:12 ◼   ► nothing about them made people better

00:55:13 ◼   ► about dealing with files.

00:55:16 ◼   ► But it brought a bunch of features with it

00:55:19 ◼   ► that everybody loves.

00:55:20 ◼   ► And I guess the only improvement to the file paradigm

00:55:23 ◼   ► it brought with it is sharing that people seem

00:55:26 ◼   ► to be able to figure out, which is not true of sharing

00:55:28 ◼   ► in a lot of other systems, and the fact

00:55:30 ◼   ► that you can move things around and people's links to them

00:55:33 ◼   ► don't break, which is convenient.

00:55:35 ◼   ► I have kind of middle of the road hopes for iOS 11,

00:55:40 ◼   ► but I expect it to be the true star of the keynote

00:55:43 ◼   ► if there's no Siri tube.

00:55:45 ◼   ► - I would also expect some degree of redesign.

00:55:49 ◼   ► We've seen little rumblings here and there about this.

00:55:52 ◼   ► I think if you look at the conditions

00:55:56 ◼   ► that were right before iOS 7, so like the iOS 6 era,

00:56:01 ◼   ► It was a time when the system stock UI widgets

00:56:06 ◼   ► started looking more dated than usual,

00:56:09 ◼   ► and there started, like, apps started coming out

00:56:13 ◼   ► that people considered to be really good new design

00:56:15 ◼   ► that was kind of fresh and different,

00:56:17 ◼   ► that also was kind of converging on some similar principles.

00:56:20 ◼   ► So back then it was like letterpress and Vesper,

00:56:24 ◼   ► like these apps that were, back in the iOS 6 era,

00:56:27 ◼   ► that were doing flat shapes, no big textures,

00:56:32 ◼   ► mostly color and accent color based design,

00:56:36 ◼   ► things that ended up being very close to what iOS 7 was.

00:56:40 ◼   ► And then iOS 7 came out,

00:56:41 ◼   ► it was kind of like the right time for it.

00:56:43 ◼   ► Well I think now is the right time for a redesign,

00:56:46 ◼   ► not on the scale of iOS 7's redesign,

00:56:49 ◼   ► but maybe on the scale of when we went from iOS 5 to 6.

00:56:53 ◼   ► 'cause remember iOS 6 was kind of a half step in a redesign.

00:56:57 ◼   ► Like it kind of, it got rid of a lot of the iOS 5

00:57:01 ◼   ► extravagance of things like textures.

00:57:02 ◼   ► Like certain things were flattened and toned down

00:57:04 ◼   ► and sanded away and things like that.

00:57:07 ◼   ► So I think we're gonna have that level of redesign here

00:57:10 ◼   ► because we can see, even if you look around,

00:57:13 ◼   ► even Apple's own apps, if you look at iOS 10,

00:57:16 ◼   ► the iOS 10 music app and Maps especially I think

00:57:20 ◼   ► has a different look than everything else

00:57:23 ◼   ► And a couple days ago, they released the WBC 2017 app.

00:57:27 ◼   ► - I was gonna say, isn't that the thing we always do,

00:57:29 ◼   ► where we all look at the WBC app and we say,

00:57:30 ◼   ► this is what the new iOS is gonna look like.

00:57:32 ◼   ► And sometimes there's an element of truth to that,

00:57:35 ◼   ► and other times, it's not.

00:57:37 ◼   ► - Right, but there are, I think we can see common elements

00:57:42 ◼   ► that are now considered good, fresh, new design

00:57:46 ◼   ► that are kind of being agreed upon or converged upon

00:57:49 ◼   ► that are very different from iOS 7.

00:57:51 ◼   ► Some examples of this would be things like

00:57:54 ◼   ► kind of layered sheets with rounded corners

00:57:57 ◼   ► instead of navigation controllers and iOS 7

00:58:01 ◼   ► that push big white sharp rectangles side to side.

00:58:04 ◼   ► Now you have these like softer rounded sheets that slide up.

00:58:08 ◼   ► You pull things with swipes

00:58:09 ◼   ► and swipes are your primary navigation often

00:58:12 ◼   ► for a lot of apps.

00:58:14 ◼   ► You move controls, you scoot them kind of in

00:58:18 ◼   ► away from the edges and corners so much

00:58:20 ◼   ► 'cause they're harder to reach on big phones.

00:58:22 ◼   ► This is a lot of stuff I did with Overcast,

00:58:24 ◼   ► and the reason I did it was 'cause I saw

00:58:25 ◼   ► all this stuff happening, I saw this trend happening,

00:58:27 ◼   ► I wanted to get ahead of it.

00:58:29 ◼   ► You have buttons that look a little bit more like buttons.

00:58:32 ◼   ► Like in the WWDC app is a great example,

00:58:34 ◼   ► they're like, they're rounded rectangles

00:58:37 ◼   ► that are, they're not textured, there's a solid fill.

00:58:40 ◼   ► - Solid color instead of just an outline,

00:58:42 ◼   ► because then I went with just the text,

00:58:45 ◼   ► and then there was outlines around the text,

00:58:47 ◼   ► and now we're slowly creeping back up

00:58:49 ◼   ► onto the old style button where it is a solid

00:58:51 ◼   ► rounded rectangle with text in the middle of it.

00:58:53 ◼   ► - Exactly, yeah, now you just have a flat shaded filled,

00:58:57 ◼   ► solid filled rectangle, or rounded rect,

00:58:59 ◼   ► and it's with a bold color too.

00:59:01 ◼   ► It isn't like a subtle thing, it isn't a gray,

00:59:04 ◼   ► it's a bold color, and it seems like apps

00:59:07 ◼   ► are now kind of permitted to use more than one color

00:59:11 ◼   ► at a time, like the iOS 7 design was largely based upon

00:59:15 ◼   ► using mostly white, some thin gray lines,

00:59:19 ◼   ► and then you'd have one tint color,

00:59:22 ◼   ► and that would be like your one accent color for your app.

00:59:25 ◼   ► And you'd use that, so you basically had like

00:59:27 ◼   ► single color design, grayscale plus one color.

00:59:31 ◼   ► Now I think we're having multiple colors are now okay

00:59:35 ◼   ► to have in apps again.

00:59:37 ◼   ► And so, you know, again, if you look at like,

00:59:38 ◼   ► look at Apple Music, look at the iOS 10 Maps app,

00:59:42 ◼   ► and this new WBC 2017 app, and I think you see

00:59:45 ◼   ► this clear convergence of a refresh design language

00:59:50 ◼   ► that is not on the scale of iOS 7's redesign,

00:59:53 ◼   ► but the same or more maybe as the iOS 6 redesign was.

00:59:58 ◼   ► - I think you're gonna keep the,

01:00:01 ◼   ► I mean I guess they have to probably in some way,

01:00:02 ◼   ► the buttonless buttons, like even just for things

01:00:06 ◼   ► that are in whatever you call the top bar

01:00:07 ◼   ► where you hit done or you go to--

01:00:10 ◼   ► - Yeah, the navigate, yeah that was a big question I had

01:00:12 ◼   ► when writing this up, it was like,

01:00:13 ◼   ► what do they do with navigation bar buttons?

01:00:15 ◼   ► because in the iOS 6 days they would have outlines

01:00:18 ◼   ► and textures and I don't think that would look good here,

01:00:22 ◼   ► but I think that can be done well.

01:00:25 ◼   ► Part of the answer, honestly, might just be that

01:00:28 ◼   ► navigation bars are going out of style

01:00:30 ◼   ► and that most apps are not using these kind of sheets

01:00:33 ◼   ► and cards and things that are not as often

01:00:35 ◼   ► using navigation bars or not putting buttons there.

01:00:38 ◼   ► - Yeah, 'cause you can't reach that anymore.

01:00:39 ◼   ► - Right.

01:00:40 ◼   ► - But they're still gonna be in the OS.

01:00:41 ◼   ► I think they're going to keep them in the OS,

01:00:44 ◼   ► especially for legacy applications,

01:00:45 ◼   ► they obviously have to keep supporting them.

01:00:47 ◼   ► And I think they will continue to be unadorned

01:00:49 ◼   ► because at this point, like the bar itself serves

01:00:52 ◼   ► as a pretty good framing device.

01:00:55 ◼   ► To be, the tint color plus the bar,

01:00:58 ◼   ► this is one area where I think they were right,

01:00:59 ◼   ► makes it pretty clear that by this point,

01:01:02 ◼   ► if you have an iPhone for any period of time,

01:01:03 ◼   ► that that done thing is a button and then you can hit it

01:01:06 ◼   ► and you kind of have an idea of what it will do.

01:01:09 ◼   ► One of the most awkward elements that was added recently,

01:01:11 ◼   ► what was it, iOS 9, where they add the back arrow thing,

01:01:13 ◼   ► they jam up into the upper left corner to get you back to the previous application.

01:01:17 ◼   ► I would love for them to come up with a better solution for that.

01:01:19 ◼   ► I don't have an idea for them, but it always strikes me as the most awkward, Johnny Ive

01:01:25 ◼   ► painting inappropriately composed text jammed up into the corner.

01:01:30 ◼   ► It's like the beginning of a kernel panic.

01:01:31 ◼   ► Like it starts writing your screen with this tiny little thing.

01:01:34 ◼   ► And I appreciate the functionality.

01:01:35 ◼   ► Like I use it all the time.

01:01:36 ◼   ► It is good.

01:01:37 ◼   ► Although sometimes it fakes me out because sometimes I want to hit the thing that's in

01:01:40 ◼   ► the navigation bar underneath that thing.

01:01:42 ◼   ► not a fun operation to like carefully, you know, here's the thing I do, like, I go from

01:01:48 ◼   ► my mail application and click a link and then I'm at the Safari, the navigation thing on

01:01:52 ◼   ► the top says go back to mail, right? And then you're scrolling through the web page that

01:01:56 ◼   ► opened in Safari and you navigate and you navigate and you realize, oh, I want to go

01:01:59 ◼   ► back to the previous page in Safari. And yes, if you didn't have a case on your iPhone,

01:02:03 ◼   ► you'll probably edge swipe, but I have difficulty with that because I do have a case. So what

01:02:06 ◼   ► I want to do is hit the back button in Safari, which A, isn't visible right now because I've

01:02:11 ◼   ► right? And B, when I find a way to make it visible, is nestled snugly under the

01:02:17 ◼   ► back to mail link. So very frequently I go to hit the back button and instead I

01:02:21 ◼   ► hit the two pixels away back to mail thing and instead of going back as far I

01:02:25 ◼   ► go into an entirely different application and then I'm sad. So I would

01:02:29 ◼   ► love for them to sort that out. Speaking of, there you go, there's something they

01:02:32 ◼   ► could do for iOS on the phone, for small screens, sort out that mess up there

01:02:38 ◼   ► somehow. And if the solution is, like you said, navigation bars, the advice is don't

01:02:45 ◼   ► do that because people can't reach them anymore. And here are different paradigms, either just

01:02:49 ◼   ► edge swipes or a lower navigation bar thing or those rounded rec sheets or whatever. I'm

01:02:56 ◼   ► ready for that because I think that an iOS interface, best practices shift that better

01:03:05 ◼   ► reflects the size of phone screens these days is a little bit overdue.

01:03:10 ◼   ► Yeah.

01:03:11 ◼   ► The double tap to move things down, like it was nice that they put that there, but that's

01:03:16 ◼   ► another, like that little back thing, that's another like, "Well, what can we do in the

01:03:20 ◼   ► timeframe of this release to help people with large screens?"

01:03:22 ◼   ► Well, they could tap on the thing and make the screen fall down.

01:03:25 ◼   ► Yeah, all right.

01:03:26 ◼   ► Perfect.

01:03:27 ◼   ► Ship it.

01:03:28 ◼   ► That I think is the more embarrassing hack compared to the status bar back button thing.

01:03:32 ◼   ► - The reachability feature is so embarrassing.

01:03:35 ◼   ► - Honestly, I think it probably has some utility,

01:03:40 ◼   ► but I just never remembered that it exists.

01:03:42 ◼   ► The only time I remember it exists

01:03:43 ◼   ► is when I accidentally activate it,

01:03:45 ◼   ► and then I go, you know, I could probably benefit

01:03:47 ◼   ► from using that intentionally every once in a while,

01:03:48 ◼   ► but then I never, never do.

01:03:50 ◼   ► I don't think I've ever used it intentionally.

01:03:53 ◼   ► - Eventually I just disabled it.

01:03:54 ◼   ► There's an option in settings to disable it,

01:03:56 ◼   ► because I would only ever accidentally invoke it,

01:03:58 ◼   ► and it drove me nuts, so I just turned it off,

01:04:00 ◼   ► and it's been fine.

01:04:02 ◼   ► So anything else about iOS?

01:04:04 ◼   ► - We just assume 11.

01:04:06 ◼   ► They're just gonna keep going up with the numbers.

01:04:07 ◼   ► - Yeah, yeah.

01:04:08 ◼   ► - Somebody had an interesting theory.

01:04:10 ◼   ► I wanna say it was either Mike or Jason

01:04:12 ◼   ► that everything will go to 11 this year.

01:04:15 ◼   ► So it'll be Mac OS 11, iOS 11.

01:04:18 ◼   ► - Yeah, that was Jason.

01:04:20 ◼   ► I highly recommend if you haven't heard

01:04:22 ◼   ► by the end of this episode,

01:04:23 ◼   ► this like probably four hour long episode,

01:04:25 ◼   ► if you haven't heard enough W2C predictions,

01:04:28 ◼   ► I highly recommend this week's episode of Upgrade.

01:04:31 ◼   ► there's a lot of good stuff in there.

01:04:32 ◼   ► - Yeah, very much so.

01:04:33 ◼   ► They do a whole draft.

01:04:35 ◼   ► It's very funny and it's very much worth listening to.

01:04:38 ◼   ► I mean, the show is in general,

01:04:39 ◼   ► but particularly the WWDC episodes are great.

01:04:41 ◼   ► But anyway, yeah, going to 11.

01:04:44 ◼   ► - I mean, they took the numbers.

01:04:45 ◼   ► They took the Roman numeral off macOS

01:04:47 ◼   ► and I don't see why they'd put the number back on

01:04:50 ◼   ► at this point, you know what I mean?

01:04:52 ◼   ► Like iOS 11, macOS has the place names.

01:04:55 ◼   ► And I like the yearly flavor, the yearly flavor.

01:05:00 ◼   ► Honestly, it would be cool if iOS had those too.

01:05:02 ◼   ► I know they don't do it or whatever,

01:05:03 ◼   ► but it's kind of like a legacy thing for macOS

01:05:07 ◼   ► when it had the code names, then it had the cat names,

01:05:09 ◼   ► and now it's got the place names

01:05:10 ◼   ► and give macOS some fun stuff.

01:05:12 ◼   ► It had to endure this terrible capitalization

01:05:15 ◼   ► squished up name so it matches all their other

01:05:17 ◼   ► stupid OS names.

01:05:19 ◼   ► At the very least, continue to give it the place names

01:05:22 ◼   ► 'cause there's lots of fun things you can do with that.

01:05:25 ◼   ► If they were to get rid of that

01:05:26 ◼   ► and just go with macOS 11 and iOS 11,

01:05:28 ◼   ► certainly fits with the human formity story.

01:05:29 ◼   ► Like I said, they want everything to be all the same

01:05:32 ◼   ► and look now we're synchronized,

01:05:33 ◼   ► but then what the hell would the 11 mean?

01:05:34 ◼   ► 'Cause it's not the version number, I can tell you that.

01:05:36 ◼   ► Like, do they just bump the version number to be 11?

01:05:39 ◼   ► I think, I feel like they should have learned their lesson

01:05:41 ◼   ► when they went to, you know, from 10.9 to 10.10

01:05:44 ◼   ► and everyone's like version number, you know,

01:05:46 ◼   ► everyone's incorrect version number checks

01:05:48 ◼   ► in their applications got all freaked out

01:05:49 ◼   ► to change the first digit from 10 to 11 in the version.

01:05:53 ◼   ► I mean, I don't know, they didn't do it at once,

01:05:55 ◼   ► I suppose they can do it,

01:05:56 ◼   ► but it just seems like not a big marketing win

01:05:58 ◼   ► because 11 is more boring than like Sacramento or whatever.

01:06:02 ◼   ► - I think changing the first digit makes total sense.

01:06:05 ◼   ► And as Jason said on the upgrade,

01:06:07 ◼   ► if they're ever gonna do it,

01:06:09 ◼   ► it makes total sense to do it now

01:06:10 ◼   ► so it then matches the iOS version

01:06:13 ◼   ► for future marketing purposes.

01:06:15 ◼   ► And right now the first digit has been 10 for so long,

01:06:20 ◼   ► it's basically meaningless.

01:06:23 ◼   ► You can just ignore the first digit,

01:06:24 ◼   ► it doesn't matter at all.

01:06:25 ◼   ► Which kind of raises the question

01:06:26 ◼   ► of why even bother keeping that for,

01:06:28 ◼   ► It's like, what purpose is it serving,

01:06:31 ◼   ► just being 10 point something forever?

01:06:33 ◼   ► - It's making people's incorrect version number checks

01:06:35 ◼   ► continue to function correctly.

01:06:37 ◼   ► - That was a Windows thing.

01:06:38 ◼   ► That's why they went from eight to 10.

01:06:39 ◼   ► That's not a Mac thing.

01:06:40 ◼   ► I mean--

01:06:41 ◼   ► - No, on the Mac they had it when they went

01:06:42 ◼   ► from 10.9 to 10.10, because a lot of things

01:06:45 ◼   ► would interpret 10.10 as 10.1 and being less than 10.9,

01:06:47 ◼   ► because yeah, I mean, it's not a big deal.

01:06:49 ◼   ► Like, it's not gonna stop them from doing it,

01:06:51 ◼   ► certainly, if they feel like it,

01:06:52 ◼   ► especially for marketing reasons.

01:06:54 ◼   ► But it's, you know, I think the bigger reason

01:06:57 ◼   ► to not do it is because place names are more fun than numbers.

01:07:02 ◼   ► And haven't we all been asking, like, Mac OS, stop trying to keep pace with iOS?

01:07:06 ◼   ► Would it be more comfortable if you waited a little bit longer between releases and got

01:07:09 ◼   ► things settled because that's your role?

01:07:11 ◼   ► Your role is the more slow-moving one?

01:07:13 ◼   ► But they're not doing that.

01:07:14 ◼   ► They're already not doing that.

01:07:15 ◼   ► They're already releasing them both once a year.

01:07:16 ◼   ► I know, but if they make the numbers sync, then that's like saying we're signed up for,

01:07:21 ◼   ► you know, an unlimited number more years where every year they have to be in lockstep.

01:07:26 ◼   ► I don't like that.

01:07:27 ◼   ► - Yeah.

01:07:29 ◼   ► Well anyway, what else do you,

01:07:31 ◼   ► besides naming things aside,

01:07:32 ◼   ► I love that every year this discussion happens

01:07:35 ◼   ► about like Mac OS naming, it's always heavily discussed.

01:07:39 ◼   ► 'Cause it is more interesting,

01:07:41 ◼   ► and everyone has an opinion, myself included,

01:07:42 ◼   ► like much more than we think we will.

01:07:44 ◼   ► (laughing)

01:07:45 ◼   ► Anyway, so let's--

01:07:46 ◼   ► - Yeah, we have to know what their new

01:07:47 ◼   ► default desktop backgrounds will be.

01:07:49 ◼   ► That's the most exciting part of Mac OS.

01:07:50 ◼   ► It's like, and it's kind of,

01:07:52 ◼   ► and you know, I speak as someone who wrote reviews

01:07:55 ◼   ► for the Mac operating system for a long time.

01:07:58 ◼   ► I enjoyed the visual theming and branding,

01:08:03 ◼   ► and on the Mac, the default desktop picture

01:08:07 ◼   ► is the biggest, boldest branding thing of the running OS.

01:08:12 ◼   ► On iOS, the best they do with branding

01:08:16 ◼   ► is the lock screens they show and the PR stuff,

01:08:20 ◼   ► and maybe the selections of the springboard backgrounds,

01:08:23 ◼   ► but they're always much more hidden.

01:08:25 ◼   ► If you see a Mac desktop of it, like a newly booted Mac,

01:08:29 ◼   ► even if it has a few windows open,

01:08:31 ◼   ► the desktop background is so dominant,

01:08:33 ◼   ► whereas the springboard background is much less dominant.

01:08:35 ◼   ► So there's not much in iOS to massively brand the OS

01:08:40 ◼   ► outside of the widgets themselves

01:08:42 ◼   ► and the UI and stuff like that.

01:08:43 ◼   ► So I do enjoy, like you're making a joke,

01:08:46 ◼   ► like, oh, who cares what the default desktop background

01:08:49 ◼   ► is in the Mac?

01:08:50 ◼   ► That's a big part of the excitement

01:08:52 ◼   ► of a new version of the Mac operating system for me.

01:08:54 ◼   ► I don't know if I'm an anomaly,

01:08:55 ◼   ► but like the big posters they put up

01:08:57 ◼   ► with whatever the theme is or the big waves from Mavericks

01:08:59 ◼   ► and the cool pictures of Yosemite.

01:09:02 ◼   ► And I like that stuff.

01:09:04 ◼   ► And in the absence of them,

01:09:06 ◼   ► particularly changing the Mac UI,

01:09:08 ◼   ► which doesn't seem like they're interested in these days,

01:09:11 ◼   ► all we get is a cool name and a cool desktop picture.

01:09:14 ◼   ► And sometimes that's enough to make an association

01:09:17 ◼   ► of my mind that I will link those images

01:09:20 ◼   ► and that branding and that sort of mood and theme

01:09:22 ◼   ► with whatever features they add,

01:09:24 ◼   ► whether they be, oh, this is the one that had Siri,

01:09:26 ◼   ► or this is the one where they added Spotlight,

01:09:28 ◼   ► or this is the one that had Time Machine,

01:09:29 ◼   ► or this year, this is the one with the new Fosse system

01:09:31 ◼   ► that they won't even mention in the keynote, so.

01:09:33 ◼   ► (laughing)

01:09:34 ◼   ► - So that leads into my next point here on macOS,

01:09:38 ◼   ► which is, you know, first of all,

01:09:40 ◼   ► I think we all assume, based on how they did iOS's rollout

01:09:43 ◼   ► and their promises last year,

01:09:45 ◼   ► that APFS is most likely going to ship

01:09:48 ◼   ► with whatever the next version of macOS is,

01:09:51 ◼   ► and I would even say most likely even the default,

01:09:54 ◼   ► and I would go a little bit further and say,

01:09:56 ◼   ► what if it's the only option?

01:09:58 ◼   ► What if you have to convert your boot drive?

01:10:01 ◼   ► Other drives you can probably do whatever you want,

01:10:02 ◼   ► but what if you have to convert your boot drive

01:10:05 ◼   ► to APFS upon installation?

01:10:07 ◼   ► - I think that won't be that big of a deal,

01:10:10 ◼   ► because A, we know they can do it really, really well,

01:10:13 ◼   ► so that, it's not like it's gonna trash people's data,

01:10:16 ◼   ► And of all the things be like a boot drive,

01:10:18 ◼   ► the only time that messes with you

01:10:20 ◼   ► is if you frequently use target disk mode, right?

01:10:23 ◼   ► Because every other way that that disk is read,

01:10:27 ◼   ► you don't have to worry that it's not HFS+ anymore.

01:10:29 ◼   ► Target disk mode, all of a sudden your other Macs

01:10:31 ◼   ► can't read it anymore if they're not upgraded as well.

01:10:34 ◼   ► But if you're sharing it, like it's SMB or whatever,

01:10:37 ◼   ► like it's not, it doesn't matter what format it is.

01:10:39 ◼   ► And so I think that's a reasonable thing to do.

01:10:42 ◼   ► I'm just wondering like what would be the advantage, right?

01:10:44 ◼   ► Oh, this operating system doesn't have to run HFS+.

01:10:48 ◼   ► Maybe if there's some kind of headlining feature

01:10:50 ◼   ► that demands APFS, like the newly rejiggered version

01:10:53 ◼   ► of Time Machine that's like way more efficient and stuff,

01:10:56 ◼   ► but they have an old version of Time Machine

01:10:58 ◼   ► that works with HFS+, I don't know.

01:11:01 ◼   ► Personally, I don't think there's gonna be

01:11:03 ◼   ► the fancy new version of Time Machine

01:11:05 ◼   ► that works with APFS yet anyway,

01:11:07 ◼   ► so I think this is not the year for forcing,

01:11:09 ◼   ► unless there's some other feature that I'm not thinking of,

01:11:11 ◼   ► of forcing the boot volume to be APFS.

01:11:14 ◼   ► I think they could do it, but I'm looking for a reason why they would want to do that.

01:11:22 ◼   ► Maybe simplicity.

01:11:23 ◼   ► Again, with all the Mac things, I just feel like, do they care enough about the Mac to

01:11:27 ◼   ► be that aggressive with the advancement of the platform?

01:11:30 ◼   ► Or were they just, this is one area where they will take a slower pace.

01:11:33 ◼   ► This year, APFS rollout, a couple new features that are based on it.

01:11:36 ◼   ► Next year, if we're lucky, the new version of Time Machine that takes advantage of all

01:11:40 ◼   ► the cool stuff.

01:11:41 ◼   ► Right?

01:11:42 ◼   ► I have a hard time gauging how much of a big deal

01:11:47 ◼   ► Mac OS is gonna be this year.

01:11:48 ◼   ► There's a whole bunch of things that the Mac could,

01:11:53 ◼   ► if they're gonna be putting more effort into the Mac

01:11:55 ◼   ► than they have been recently,

01:11:56 ◼   ► there are areas that could be really cool.

01:12:00 ◼   ► Things like a new time machine

01:12:01 ◼   ► based on APFS snapshots and everything.

01:12:04 ◼   ► And that's incredibly powerful.

01:12:06 ◼   ► The things you can do by having a snapshot-based

01:12:08 ◼   ► time machine, and there's two.

01:12:11 ◼   ► you can do not only the external drive backup,

01:12:13 ◼   ► but even just giving Snapshot support

01:12:16 ◼   ► to the internal time machine,

01:12:18 ◼   ► like the time machine on its own drive kind of thing,

01:12:20 ◼   ► like kind of like mini time machine.

01:12:21 ◼   ► - So they can get rid of the terrible local time machine hack

01:12:24 ◼   ► that we all have running on our Mac laptops

01:12:26 ◼   ► whether we know it or not,

01:12:27 ◼   ► which is, in my experience, extremely unreliable

01:12:30 ◼   ► and yet still there grinding away

01:12:31 ◼   ► trying to do something useful for you

01:12:33 ◼   ► and it's just like, oh, just please stop,

01:12:34 ◼   ► and you can't turn it off, yes I know.

01:12:36 ◼   ► - Exactly, there's all this cruft in Mac OS

01:12:40 ◼   ► because of having to do these advanced features on HFS Plus,

01:12:44 ◼   ► that if they just make APFS the only option

01:12:47 ◼   ► that just your boot drive automatically gets converted

01:12:49 ◼   ► when you install the next Mac OS,

01:12:53 ◼   ► which is exactly what they did with iOS,

01:12:55 ◼   ► then they could stop supporting

01:12:58 ◼   ► a whole lot of that legacy stuff.

01:13:00 ◼   ► It would be much better for their efforts

01:13:03 ◼   ► to bring the APFS features forward

01:13:05 ◼   ► if they knew the OS was only running on APFS.

01:13:08 ◼   ► So I think it's plausible.

01:13:10 ◼   ► But they still have to support all HFS+ anyway,

01:13:12 ◼   ► because you can time machine back up external volumes

01:13:15 ◼   ► and they're going to be HFS+ and so on and so forth.

01:13:17 ◼   ► So it's not like they can get rid of all the legacy

01:13:19 ◼   ► cruft code anytime soon.

01:13:20 ◼   ► That's why I'm thinking of, well,

01:13:22 ◼   ► what if there's a feature that they just--

01:13:23 ◼   ► like they wouldn't want to have a feature that says,

01:13:25 ◼   ► oh, let's demo this awesome new feature,

01:13:26 ◼   ► say it's the new time machine.

01:13:28 ◼   ► And also have to say, oh, and you can only

01:13:30 ◼   ► use this feature if you convert your boot volume.

01:13:32 ◼   ► That's the case where they would say,

01:13:34 ◼   ► A, they probably wouldn't even mention it,

01:13:35 ◼   ► but B, it would convert your boot volume no matter what.

01:13:38 ◼   ► But even in that case, they still have to support the old crap way of Time Machine,

01:13:42 ◼   ► because people, I have external drives that I backup through Time Machine, and they're

01:13:45 ◼   ► HFS+ and asking people to, you know, not asking, but forcibly upgrading their boot drive as

01:13:51 ◼   ► part of the upgrade process like they did in iOS, you could swing that.

01:13:55 ◼   ► Telling them, "Oh, and by the way, you also have to convert all your external drives,"

01:13:58 ◼   ► not gonna happen.

01:13:59 ◼   ► - Yeah, maybe.

01:14:00 ◼   ► I'm still optimistic that they might require it on the boot drive, though.

01:14:04 ◼   ► But anyway.

01:14:05 ◼   ► - That's a question for me for PredictionWise.

01:14:07 ◼   ► - Do you think the letters APFS in that order,

01:14:10 ◼   ► all capitals will appear on any slide

01:14:12 ◼   ► or be spoken by any presenter?

01:14:13 ◼   ► I guess it'll be spoken in passing maybe.

01:14:15 ◼   ► - Yes.

01:14:16 ◼   ► - But will it appear on a slide?

01:14:17 ◼   ► - Yes, absolutely.

01:14:18 ◼   ► Worst case scenario, it'll appear on the word cloud slide.

01:14:21 ◼   ► - Yeah, it is.

01:14:22 ◼   ► I mean, obviously in the state of the union and stuff

01:14:23 ◼   ► would be, I'm trying to think of the keynote.

01:14:24 ◼   ► Does it make, 'cause it didn't make the keynote last year

01:14:27 ◼   ► and that's when it was introduced.

01:14:28 ◼   ► Remember, we found out about it when we left the building

01:14:30 ◼   ► and it was like, oh, and by the way, APFS.

01:14:31 ◼   ► Like what?

01:14:32 ◼   ► - I remember that moment very specifically, yes.

01:14:34 ◼   ► - I remember it too.

01:14:35 ◼   ► But the fact that it didn't make the keynote, not good enough for the keynote, sorry, replacing

01:14:42 ◼   ► a 15-year-old, 19-year-old, depending on how you trace it back to HFS file system, not important.

01:14:50 ◼   ► It made the State of the Union, and it totally will this time too, and there'll be sessions

01:14:53 ◼   ► about it, and I'll be all happy and everything.

01:14:55 ◼   ► But I really, that's, speaking of hopes and dreams, give me this one.

01:14:59 ◼   ► - We'll talk about APFS, at least in passing,

01:15:03 ◼   ► during the Mac section of the VRC keynote.

01:15:05 ◼   ► You hear that, Craig?

01:15:06 ◼   ► Make it happen.

01:15:07 ◼   ► - Do you, so here's a long shot.

01:15:10 ◼   ► There was a thing that I think ATP Tipster told us

01:15:14 ◼   ► forever ago that was like being considered,

01:15:16 ◼   ► and I haven't heard a thing about it since,

01:15:18 ◼   ► so it probably isn't happening.

01:15:19 ◼   ► Long shot though, do you think they would offer

01:15:22 ◼   ► iCloud Time Machine as an online backup?

01:15:26 ◼   ► And so one reason I think they might,

01:15:29 ◼   ► besides the fact that they now would have

01:15:31 ◼   ► the technical infrastructure with APFS

01:15:34 ◼   ► to reasonably do it, I think one of the themes

01:15:39 ◼   ► that I expect to see here is Apple pushing people

01:15:42 ◼   ► even harder into subscribing to iCloud data plans,

01:15:47 ◼   ► and into buying more iCloud storage space,

01:15:50 ◼   ► giving more and more compelling reasons

01:15:52 ◼   ► for people to start paying Apple three, five,

01:15:55 ◼   ► or $20 a month for this iCloud storage space because there's going to be more and more

01:15:59 ◼   ► features that can use it. iCloud Time Machine would use a ton of it. So what if they did

01:16:05 ◼   ► that?

01:16:06 ◼   ► Well, they're totally going to do that. It's just a question of whether it's this year

01:16:08 ◼   ► or not. And speaking of Apple services, I think, I mean, we still always complain about

01:16:12 ◼   ► their pricing and how they're sometimes competitive, sometimes not, depending on the year, depending

01:16:17 ◼   ► on the thing you're looking at, depending on how you're measuring it. But I've always

01:16:20 ◼   ► felt like the Apple way to do things, and we mentioned this many times in the context

01:16:22 ◼   ► of iOS, and now I think of it again in the context of iCloud Time Machine, is not to

01:16:28 ◼   ► buy an amount of space, because that's a techie nerd thing and people don't like to think

01:16:32 ◼   ► about that, especially because it's like more price, you know, higher price for more, but

01:16:36 ◼   ► to sell a backup my Mac plan, right?

01:16:41 ◼   ► Like I mean, you know, like backblaze or any of these other things too.

01:16:43 ◼   ► Like you don't buy based on space, you buy based on I want to backup this Mac.

01:16:48 ◼   ► Like you buy like a membership in a club,

01:16:50 ◼   ► and then you break the association between,

01:16:53 ◼   ► like Apple loves to do,

01:16:54 ◼   ► break the association between the dollar amount and a spec.

01:16:58 ◼   ► The dollar amount and storage space.

01:17:00 ◼   ► And now it's the dollar amount and a result.

01:17:03 ◼   ► And the result is your Mac is part

01:17:05 ◼   ► of the iCloud backup club.

01:17:06 ◼   ► And just like your phone is backed up to the cloud,

01:17:08 ◼   ► your Mac is backed up.

01:17:09 ◼   ► Obviously the phone has the same problem

01:17:11 ◼   ► that you buy storage space and people run out of it

01:17:12 ◼   ► and they freak out.

01:17:13 ◼   ► And we've talked about this a million times.

01:17:14 ◼   ► If Apple's gonna charge more than everybody else,

01:17:16 ◼   ► way to hide that extra cost is to, I mean, essentially like go unlimited, but not really.

01:17:22 ◼   ► Like to make it, to make it that you're buying the result and obviously how much storage

01:17:27 ◼   ► space you would use would be based on the size of your, your, your boot drive or your

01:17:32 ◼   ► device or they're like, obviously there would be a limit and you know what I mean? But like

01:17:36 ◼   ► to frame it in that way, or maybe it doesn't have to be a way, honestly, if backblaze can

01:17:39 ◼   ► do it, why the hell can't Apple, right?

01:17:41 ◼   ► - Can't is very different than won't.

01:17:44 ◼   ► - Yeah, anyway, iCloud Time Machine has to come.

01:17:48 ◼   ► I don't know if local Time Machine is even coming this year,

01:17:53 ◼   ► let alone Cloud Time Machine.

01:17:54 ◼   ► I think that is entirely a matter of,

01:17:58 ◼   ► because they could have done that years ago,

01:17:59 ◼   ► like they could have done it badly,

01:18:00 ◼   ► but like, you know, they did it on the phones with HFS Plus,

01:18:03 ◼   ► and obviously on the phones it's easier

01:18:04 ◼   ► because you know exactly what you need to back up

01:18:06 ◼   ► and you can discard lots of stuff

01:18:06 ◼   ► because you can get it from the store

01:18:08 ◼   ► and yada, yada, yada.

01:18:10 ◼   ► But Apple loves services, and you're right,

01:18:11 ◼   ► this is a way to charge more for services,

01:18:13 ◼   ► and they have the technical underpinnings

01:18:15 ◼   ► to do a much better job of this.

01:18:17 ◼   ► So it's only a matter of time and a matter of, you know,

01:18:19 ◼   ► how much attention is the Mac getting?

01:18:21 ◼   ► - Yeah, I really do think that what Apple wants,

01:18:24 ◼   ► and what, you know, they're pushing

01:18:26 ◼   ► for more and more services revenue, obviously.

01:18:29 ◼   ► It's the, it's an area of growth that they can use

01:18:32 ◼   ► that is probably easier to achieve

01:18:34 ◼   ► than some of the other areas of growth to maintain,

01:18:37 ◼   ► just the different scales and everything.

01:18:39 ◼   ► So they're gonna be pushing this heavily,

01:18:40 ◼   ► as they have been the last couple years.

01:18:42 ◼   ► I expect in general, I expect there to be things like

01:18:45 ◼   ► very, very heavy pushes towards subscribing to Apple Music.

01:18:48 ◼   ► That's gonna be a big one.

01:18:49 ◼   ► And I think iCloud Drive, or just iCloud Storage,

01:18:53 ◼   ► is going to be one of those things too.

01:18:55 ◼   ► Basically, my theory is that

01:18:57 ◼   ► within probably the next few years,

01:18:59 ◼   ► Apple wants to try to make it so that

01:19:02 ◼   ► using an iPhone or Mac or any Apple device

01:19:06 ◼   ► without having a decent amount of iCloud storage space

01:19:09 ◼   ► that you're paying for every month,

01:19:11 ◼   ► should feel like using it without an Apple ID.

01:19:14 ◼   ► Like there should be like all this stuff

01:19:15 ◼   ► that you're missing out on by not paying Apple

01:19:18 ◼   ► five or 10 bucks a month for this additional storage.

01:19:21 ◼   ► That's where I think they wanna push this,

01:19:22 ◼   ► and I think they will.

01:19:24 ◼   ► And it's not like purely cynical,

01:19:25 ◼   ► there's lots of great things they can offer

01:19:27 ◼   ► once you do that.

01:19:29 ◼   ► But I do think there's certainly a big motivation there

01:19:32 ◼   ► to increase that services revenue,

01:19:34 ◼   ► and that's gonna be one of the ways they do it,

01:19:36 ◼   ► that happens to correspond to things

01:19:37 ◼   ► that are also nice for users.

01:19:39 ◼   ► - My stretch hope and dream for macOS

01:19:42 ◼   ► before we leave this topic is,

01:19:44 ◼   ► I laugh thinking about this,

01:19:46 ◼   ► but an announcement of vastly improved 3D API support,

01:19:51 ◼   ► whether that be OpenGL, Vulkan, or whatever,

01:19:53 ◼   ► like an inexplicable announcement

01:19:55 ◼   ► because they wouldn't have any hardware associated with it.

01:19:57 ◼   ► It'd be like, why?

01:19:58 ◼   ► All right, that's great,

01:19:59 ◼   ► but like, no one games on a Mac

01:20:01 ◼   ► and all your GPUs are really weak.

01:20:02 ◼   ► Why are you touting your improved OpenGL support,

01:20:06 ◼   ► like that you're caught up with the spec and that you're like--

01:20:09 ◼   ► and we would know the answer is like,

01:20:10 ◼   ► there's another shoe that's going to drop,

01:20:12 ◼   ► but it's called the Mac Pro that they're going to make someday,

01:20:13 ◼   ► and maybe it'll have awesome GPUs, right?

01:20:16 ◼   ► No, not DirectX for Mac OS.

01:20:18 ◼   ► Blammer in the chat.

01:20:20 ◼   ► I would be excited by that, because it's an area where

01:20:23 ◼   ► they are super behind, and they've been paying attention

01:20:25 ◼   ► to Metal, and you know, like--

01:20:29 ◼   ► I don't know.

01:20:30 ◼   ► I don't predict it.

01:20:31 ◼   ► but I would be super excited about that.

01:20:34 ◼   ► - So I have a couple of stretch goals.

01:20:37 ◼   ► I mean, first of all, we should,

01:20:38 ◼   ► before we leave the more plausible section,

01:20:40 ◼   ► we should also cover that I think the rumored

01:20:45 ◼   ► iPad Pro drawing tablet mode is realistic

01:20:49 ◼   ► and plausible for this year's release.

01:20:51 ◼   ► - Oh, you're lumping that in with Mac OS

01:20:53 ◼   ► instead of the iPad, I suppose.

01:20:54 ◼   ► - Yeah, it's really a Mac OS feature.

01:20:56 ◼   ► The idea behind this feature, as rumored,

01:20:58 ◼   ► is that an iPad Pro with a pencil could be attached

01:21:03 ◼   ► in some, I don't know if it's only gonna be working

01:21:05 ◼   ► over a wire or whether they can do it wirelessly,

01:21:08 ◼   ► but can-- - They'll be able

01:21:09 ◼   ► to do it wirelessly. - Hopefully.

01:21:11 ◼   ► But basically, they can enter a mode where a Mac app

01:21:14 ◼   ► can use the iPad and its pencil

01:21:17 ◼   ► as a stylus surface of some kind.

01:21:20 ◼   ► And we don't really know anything more than that,

01:21:21 ◼   ► or whether this is even in for this year or not.

01:21:24 ◼   ► But I think the way they would probably do this,

01:21:27 ◼   ► if they're going to do this, would not just be

01:21:30 ◼   ► that it would be like a second screen

01:21:33 ◼   ► that you could just move windows onto, no.

01:21:35 ◼   ► I think it would be more like the way they did the touch bar

01:21:38 ◼   ► which is it would be a separate type of output display,

01:21:43 ◼   ► slash input display, that apps would have to specifically

01:21:46 ◼   ► write support for so that they would specifically say

01:21:49 ◼   ► what would be shown on it and specifically receive

01:21:52 ◼   ► the events from the pencil from it.

01:21:54 ◼   ► So it would, if they do it that way,

01:21:57 ◼   ► I think it's a much nicer feature.

01:21:58 ◼   ► I think it's better.

01:21:59 ◼   ► And it would have slower adoption

01:22:01 ◼   ► if you have to wait for all the apps

01:22:02 ◼   ► that could benefit from this to integrate

01:22:05 ◼   ► this potential new API, just like the touch bar.

01:22:09 ◼   ► But I think if that works out,

01:22:12 ◼   ► that could be a way better way to do it,

01:22:14 ◼   ► and that's probably the way

01:22:15 ◼   ► that they would do such a feature.

01:22:17 ◼   ► - Yeah, like everyone's talking about it

01:22:18 ◼   ► as the single phrase for this feature is,

01:22:22 ◼   ► oh, you can use your iPad as a Cintiq,

01:22:23 ◼   ► but a Cintiq behaves as essentially a monitor

01:22:26 ◼   ► that you can draw in.

01:22:27 ◼   ► Like it appears as a second monitor,

01:22:28 ◼   ► you can arrange it with the other monitor.

01:22:30 ◼   ► The full UI of your Mac can be there.

01:22:32 ◼   ► You can drag the little menu bar down to it

01:22:33 ◼   ► so that it is actually your primary display.

01:22:35 ◼   ► But that's not how you just described

01:22:40 ◼   ► this feature working on the iPad.

01:22:41 ◼   ► That it wouldn't just be,

01:22:42 ◼   ► 'cause there are apps now you can get for your iPad

01:22:43 ◼   ► that do this.

01:22:44 ◼   ► Like, oh, your iPad is a second screen from your Mac

01:22:46 ◼   ► and now you can draw in your drawing app with the stylus

01:22:49 ◼   ► because of course it's a second screen and you have input.

01:22:51 ◼   ► This seems like a more,

01:22:53 ◼   ► the rumors are a lot of a more targeted interface.

01:22:56 ◼   ► like you said, like the touch bar,

01:22:57 ◼   ► that is specifically addressable by the applications.

01:22:59 ◼   ► It is not just like, hey, every application gets this free

01:23:01 ◼   ► 'cause it's just a second small screen,

01:23:02 ◼   ► which they could also do as a mode or whatever,

01:23:05 ◼   ► but to really, to leverage their,

01:23:09 ◼   ► the capabilities of the high refresh rate

01:23:12 ◼   ► and the stylus input and all that other stuff,

01:23:14 ◼   ► it seems to me that it has,

01:23:16 ◼   ► is it a better solution to have apps support it

01:23:20 ◼   ► specifically in the same way they support the touch bar,

01:23:22 ◼   ► to be able to draw a UI over there

01:23:24 ◼   ► and to be able to have the iPad handle a lot of the drawing,

01:23:29 ◼   ► you know, the local drawing to make it as responsive

01:23:33 ◼   ► as we know the pencil can be in the good applications,

01:23:36 ◼   ► having that collaborate with the Mac app.

01:23:38 ◼   ► And it could be good and it will make people's iPads,

01:23:41 ◼   ► you know, more powerful and capable,

01:23:43 ◼   ► but not that I'm gonna say this reminds me of the old world,

01:23:47 ◼   ► but I think of that arrangement and it seems cool

01:23:50 ◼   ► and useful and a great way to leverage Apple's existing

01:23:52 ◼   ► hardware with a clever software solution,

01:23:54 ◼   ► but then I think of the Microsoft Surface Studio

01:23:56 ◼   ► sitting over there, kinda glaring at me,

01:23:58 ◼   ► gone, you know, tapping its fingers,

01:24:00 ◼   ► going, you know, hello, guys,

01:24:03 ◼   ► I don't know what you're doing over there

01:24:04 ◼   ► with your multiple devices and your steampunk windows,

01:24:07 ◼   ► but here I am, a giant screen,

01:24:10 ◼   ► touch me, draw on me, and put me up, no, anyway, yeah.

01:24:15 ◼   ► - I don't understand why this is something that people want.

01:24:18 ◼   ► Like, I mean, for like artists and stuff, I guess,

01:24:21 ◼   ► But why would a regular Shmo want their iPad Pro

01:24:24 ◼   ► as like a Wacom tablet for their computer?

01:24:27 ◼   ► - Yeah, as far as, I mean, in this way we're describing it,

01:24:32 ◼   ► yes, totally for artists,

01:24:33 ◼   ► because Cintiqs are super expensive and I have one,

01:24:37 ◼   ► they're not that great, like they're okay.

01:24:40 ◼   ► If you already have an iPad with a stylus

01:24:43 ◼   ► and you like drawing on it,

01:24:45 ◼   ► but you also like Adobe Illustrator,

01:24:47 ◼   ► the full version of which does not,

01:24:48 ◼   ► or Photoshop or whatever,

01:24:49 ◼   ► doesn't ship for iOS, just these cut down versions.

01:24:52 ◼   ► This is an interesting solution to the pro app problem.

01:24:56 ◼   ► To get more people to buy iPads to use with their Macs

01:24:58 ◼   ► that they might buy anyway,

01:24:59 ◼   ► but this pushes them over the edge.

01:25:01 ◼   ► Because if it doesn't work as a second monitor,

01:25:03 ◼   ► like a Cintiq, I don't see people buying it

01:25:06 ◼   ► as a way to use your Mac through a stylus.

01:25:08 ◼   ► And again, there are iOS apps you can buy today

01:25:11 ◼   ► to remotely use your Mac,

01:25:12 ◼   ► to use your iPad as a second screen,

01:25:14 ◼   ► to use your iPad as a Cintiq-like device for your Mac.

01:25:19 ◼   ► presumably when Apple invoents it, they will do it a better job because they have, you know, low-level access to all that good stuff.

01:25:25 ◼   ► And so that's what people are waiting for. And it is narrow, but like, in terms of, you know, the potential/promised focus on pros,

01:25:35 ◼   ► both with iOS 11 and making iOS more capable on the big iPads and the Mac Pro,

01:25:40 ◼   ► this seems like a move that is aimed towards creative pros and app developers who think they can make a cool application with this capability

01:25:48 ◼   ► and think they can sell it for a fair price

01:25:50 ◼   ► in the app store.

01:25:51 ◼   ► - Just seems to me like it would be a lot of investment

01:25:54 ◼   ► for not a lot of return.

01:25:56 ◼   ► I don't know, maybe I'm missing the boat.

01:25:57 ◼   ► - It's not that much investment though, like I said.

01:25:59 ◼   ► I feel like they're almost there with the,

01:26:01 ◼   ► third parties can do it, the plumbing must be there,

01:26:04 ◼   ► Apple's just gonna do the better lower latency job of it

01:26:07 ◼   ► and have an opinion about how it should be done

01:26:11 ◼   ► in terms of APIs and stuff like that.

01:26:12 ◼   ► - I think it could be really cool too.

01:26:13 ◼   ► I mean, if you think about,

01:26:15 ◼   ► obviously there's lots of artistic uses for this

01:26:17 ◼   ► and I wouldn't use any of those.

01:26:20 ◼   ► - Oh, you wanna use that audio, I see it coming.

01:26:23 ◼   ► - Well, obviously I would consider, I would try that,

01:26:25 ◼   ► but I think there's a lot of areas of common tasks

01:26:29 ◼   ► that people do that could benefit from

01:26:33 ◼   ► being able to quickly alternate between pen input,

01:26:37 ◼   ► especially really good pen input like this,

01:26:39 ◼   ► like the iPad Pro, really good pen input,

01:26:41 ◼   ► and also a keyboard and mouse,

01:26:43 ◼   ► and to be able to kinda alternate between

01:26:47 ◼   ► having that incredibly awesome pen thing

01:26:50 ◼   ► that only has been available directly in iOS so far,

01:26:53 ◼   ► but also integrated with Mac workflows.

01:26:56 ◼   ► That could apply to lots of things.

01:26:58 ◼   ► That could be as simple as like,

01:27:00 ◼   ► if I'm working in Apple Notes, which I really like Notes.

01:27:03 ◼   ► I've been using it more and more,

01:27:05 ◼   ► and I did have one problem a couple months ago

01:27:08 ◼   ► where like one device just wouldn't sync,

01:27:10 ◼   ► and it just was stuck for a long time,

01:27:13 ◼   ► and I tried a bunch of crap,

01:27:13 ◼   ► and eventually it started syncing again,

01:27:15 ◼   ► And I've heard a few other people

01:27:16 ◼   ► who've had similar problems.

01:27:18 ◼   ► So that's a little concerning.

01:27:19 ◼   ► I hope Apple works it out. - Corrupt note

01:27:21 ◼   ► that you must hunt down and expunge.

01:27:22 ◼   ► - Right, exactly, yes, who knows.

01:27:24 ◼   ► But one of the things Notes has is you can integrate

01:27:27 ◼   ► doodles and drawings with the pencil and everything.

01:27:30 ◼   ► And so right now if I want a note to contain a drawing,

01:27:34 ◼   ► I have to go over to my iPad and add it there.

01:27:37 ◼   ► But if I'm working on my Mac,

01:27:39 ◼   ► that's kind of not convenient.

01:27:41 ◼   ► But if I was working in,

01:27:44 ◼   ► If I had this and my iPad was on my desk,

01:27:47 ◼   ► I could just reach over, doodle something,

01:27:49 ◼   ► and then just put my hands right back on the Mac keyboard

01:27:52 ◼   ► and go right back to work on the Mac,

01:27:53 ◼   ► not have to wait for a sync to happen

01:27:54 ◼   ► but up and down to the cloud and everything else.

01:27:56 ◼   ► I'd be working in the document right here.

01:27:58 ◼   ► Stuff like that.

01:27:59 ◼   ► I think there's a lot of potential workflows,

01:28:02 ◼   ► whether it's basic things like doodling

01:28:04 ◼   ► or annotation, marking up documents.

01:28:06 ◼   ► There's so many different things

01:28:08 ◼   ► that aren't just freehand drawing in Photoshop

01:28:11 ◼   ► where this could be really helpful.

01:28:13 ◼   ► Not to mention the freehand drawing in Photoshop,

01:28:16 ◼   ► or even things like if you're drawing something

01:28:18 ◼   ► in Illustrator, in a vector program,

01:28:20 ◼   ► where you're doing less freehand stuff,

01:28:22 ◼   ► and more kind of like drawing with math and parameters,

01:28:25 ◼   ► but you do wanna add a freehand element to something.

01:28:28 ◼   ► It's easy to just add that,

01:28:29 ◼   ► and then go back to your keyboard and mouse

01:28:31 ◼   ► for all the precise stuff.

01:28:32 ◼   ► And this all might not happen,

01:28:36 ◼   ► 'cause this all depends on lots of good, high-quality,

01:28:39 ◼   ► third-party integration happening,

01:28:41 ◼   ► and that's always a crap sheet.

01:28:42 ◼   ► You never know what developers will take advantage of

01:28:45 ◼   ► and how soon and how well.

01:28:47 ◼   ► But there's a lot of potential for this kind of feature.

01:28:50 ◼   ► So if it isn't a massive deal for Apple to add this,

01:28:53 ◼   ► if it's not like a huge three year undertaking

01:28:56 ◼   ► where they can do nothing else,

01:28:57 ◼   ► this would be nice to have, yes.

01:28:58 ◼   ► And it's something that, you know,

01:29:01 ◼   ► I think features that can really change

01:29:05 ◼   ► the way people work on the Mac

01:29:07 ◼   ► are hard to come by these days.

01:29:09 ◼   ► So I think when they come by them,

01:29:10 ◼   ► there's actually a decent chance,

01:29:13 ◼   ► as long as there's not massive downsides,

01:29:15 ◼   ► they actually might consider doing them.

01:29:16 ◼   ► So this I consider plausible,

01:29:19 ◼   ► and if they actually do it,

01:29:21 ◼   ► I think it could be really cool.

01:29:23 ◼   ► - They haven't had a good Adobe Mac app demo

01:29:26 ◼   ► at a keynote in a really long time.

01:29:28 ◼   ► That's the old world.

01:29:29 ◼   ► Wouldn't it be nice to come back to the old days

01:29:31 ◼   ► and have a Photoshop demo on a Mac,

01:29:34 ◼   ► granted with an iOS device, fine.

01:29:35 ◼   ► - Yeah. (laughs)

01:29:37 ◼   ► Win some, you lose some.