ATP

00:00:00 ◼   ► So you use the... it's a 15 inch? No, you have the Escape with the 5K and the Escape's clamshelled.

00:00:07 ◼   ► Close. It's back to a 15, remember?

00:00:09 ◼   ► I know I make it hard to keep track.

00:00:11 ◼   ► I can't keep track. Holy s***.

00:00:13 ◼   ► [Laughter]

00:00:15 ◼   ► So you're on a 15 touch bar.

00:00:17 ◼   ► I'm on a 15 touch bar, which I never actually used the touch bar.

00:00:19 ◼   ► And that was because of all the ports.

00:00:21 ◼   ► It was partially because of the ports and it was partially because I tried the first few weekends I was spending here.

00:00:26 ◼   ► I used the MacBook escape with the 5k and it was struggling to drive all those

00:00:33 ◼   ► pixels like basic operations like window dragging was slow and and then and I did

00:00:38 ◼   ► want more performance if it was gonna be like my main computer for a month of

00:00:42 ◼   ► heavy iOS development you know then I rationalize it away by saying well then

00:00:46 ◼   ► when I go home I can bring the LG 5k and I can sell my iMac while it is still

00:00:52 ◼   ► under any kind of warranty it has like a fee it's I think it's under warranty

00:00:56 ◼   ► until October, and then use my clamshell with this,

00:01:00 ◼   ► the setup I have now, as my main setup

00:01:02 ◼   ► until the Mac Pro comes out next year.

00:01:04 ◼   ► - So I have appropriated a second 4K monitor,

00:01:09 ◼   ► which is a story that's not worth telling at the moment.

00:01:11 ◼   ► So I have two of these LJ 4K monitors,

00:01:14 ◼   ► LG, what did I just say, LG, 4K monitors,

00:01:17 ◼   ► that are now being run off of my pre-Touch Bar MacBook Pro.

00:01:23 ◼   ► And to be honest, it actually seems just fine with these.

00:01:26 ◼   ► Now granted, they're 4K, not 5K, it's a big difference,

00:01:28 ◼   ► but it seems just fine with two 4Ks.

00:01:31 ◼   ► However, I have forgotten how persnickety

00:01:34 ◼   ► and fickle Mac OS is when it comes to clamshell mode.

00:01:39 ◼   ► - Oh yeah. - 'Cause there are lots

00:01:40 ◼   ► of times that I'll, like I put it to sleep

00:01:43 ◼   ► and I open it up and it's furious

00:01:45 ◼   ► and sometimes doesn't wake up.

00:01:46 ◼   ► I don't put it to sleep and I just rip all the cables out

00:01:49 ◼   ► and I walk away and it goes to sleep

00:01:51 ◼   ► and then may or may not wake up.

00:01:53 ◼   ► Or I'll open the lid and I'll rip all the cables out.

00:01:55 ◼   ► Then everything just dances all over the place

00:01:58 ◼   ► and then it may or may not actually be

00:02:00 ◼   ► the way I want it to be.

00:02:01 ◼   ► Clamshell is not really what we should be doing

00:02:05 ◼   ► with these things, which is unfortunate

00:02:06 ◼   ► 'cause I do like it when I have either a 5K as you have

00:02:09 ◼   ► or a couple of 4Ks like I have.

00:02:12 ◼   ► - And I'll tell you what,

00:02:13 ◼   ► as I've been using Clamshell here at vacation times,

00:02:17 ◼   ► I completely agree.

00:02:18 ◼   ► It's been a while since I've used just a laptop

00:02:21 ◼   ► with Mac OS, a laptop with a desktop screen connected to it.

00:02:24 ◼   ► - Yeah, yeah, yeah.

00:02:25 ◼   ► - Like, I used to do that all the time.

00:02:26 ◼   ► I used to be on my main setup,

00:02:28 ◼   ► but that was probably a good six, seven years ago at least,

00:02:32 ◼   ► and I had forgotten quite how just inconsistent

00:02:35 ◼   ► a lot of the stuff is.

00:02:36 ◼   ► Like, it just doesn't work right,

00:02:38 ◼   ► and now with the touch bar, it's even worse.

00:02:40 ◼   ► Like, every time I log in,

00:02:42 ◼   ► the text box won't show on the main screen.

00:02:45 ◼   ► I have to start typing,

00:02:46 ◼   ► 'cause the laptop is waiting for touch ID, but it's closed.

00:02:50 ◼   ► And so on the big LG screen,

00:02:52 ◼   ► it just shows me a login window,

00:02:54 ◼   ► and it will not show the text area unless you start typing.

00:02:57 ◼   ► It's just weird little stuff like that.

00:02:58 ◼   ► It's just not good.

00:03:01 ◼   ► I really honestly, I'm rethinking my plan now

00:03:05 ◼   ► of getting rid of my iMac early.

00:03:06 ◼   ► I'm like, oh God, this is awkward.

00:03:09 ◼   ► Not to mention this LG screen is such a piece of crap.

00:03:12 ◼   ► - Is it really?

00:03:13 ◼   ► That's so disappointing. - I rented about it before.

00:03:15 ◼   ► So one thing is I had to get an Ergotron arm

00:03:18 ◼   ► because the stand is so wobbly.

00:03:21 ◼   ► It just kept wobbling.

00:03:22 ◼   ► Every time I would type on my keyboard,

00:03:24 ◼   ► I don't think I'm that aggressive of a typist,

00:03:27 ◼   ► but every time I would type on the keyboard,

00:03:29 ◼   ► my monitor would wobble back and forth.

00:03:31 ◼   ► But yeah, the LG is, it's a piece of crap.

00:03:34 ◼   ► It's just, it's not a good, it's a PC monitor,

00:03:38 ◼   ► it has crap speakers, it has crap frame around it,

00:03:40 ◼   ► it's, you know, it had that stupid interference problem

00:03:43 ◼   ► with the early ones, like it's just not

00:03:45 ◼   ► well-engineered piece of anything. And I don't expect to be buying more non-Apple monitors

00:03:52 ◼   ► there, if I can help it.

00:03:54 ◼   ► [Music]

00:03:55 ◼   ► All right, so this is a weird setup for tonight. It is currently the evening of Friday, the

00:04:01 ◼   ► 4th of August. And we are going to do a marathon recording session. And we need to get this

00:04:07 ◼   ► week's, which probably won't be released until tomorrow on the 5th, Saturday the 5th of August,

00:04:13 ◼   ► This week's recording, which will probably be a mostly normal ATP recording, and next

00:04:19 ◼   ► week's, which will be released on or around Wednesday the 9th, we are going to do a bit

00:04:26 ◼   ► of Q&A, probably for most of what ends up being the second episode.

00:04:31 ◼   ► But we are recording these both back-to-back, and we may or may not have a clean separation

00:04:37 ◼   ► between the first episode and the second, depending on how aggressive Marco gets when

00:04:42 ◼   ► when he does the splicing and dicing.

00:04:44 ◼   ► - I have so many ideas.

00:04:46 ◼   ► - Oh, I can only imagine.

00:04:47 ◼   ► This one?

00:04:48 ◼   ► - I'm thinking like, so my two favorite ideas are

00:04:50 ◼   ► either we do like, you know, next week on ATP,

00:04:54 ◼   ► like one of those previous,

00:04:56 ◼   ► or we do like the classic cop-out of like,

00:04:59 ◼   ► I don't know how to end this song in the 80s,

00:05:01 ◼   ► so I'm just gonna fade it out.

00:05:03 ◼   ► (laughing)

00:05:04 ◼   ► We'll just be repeating the same sentence

00:05:06 ◼   ► over and over again and just slowly fade, fade, fade it out.

00:05:10 ◼   ► - Way to spoil your two best ideas.

00:05:11 ◼   ► you don't put this in the episode.

00:05:12 ◼   ► [laughter]

00:05:13 ◼   ► Oh, that's so true. So anyway, so this one, it might feel—or this one and the next one,

00:05:20 ◼   ► I should say—might feel slightly weird, and I apologize if that's the case. Like

00:05:24 ◼   ► we had mentioned, I think, on the last episode, between the three of us, we have planned our

00:05:29 ◼   ► vacations to not overlap at all, which is kind of unfortunate for times when you want

00:05:36 ◼   ► to make sure all three of you are here to record. So we're doing the best we can,

00:05:39 ◼   ► We apologize and thanks for bearing with us.

00:05:40 ◼   ► That being said, John, how was your beach vacation?

00:05:45 ◼   ► - It's fine.

00:05:46 ◼   ► - Good talk.

00:05:47 ◼   ► All right, let's start with some follow up.

00:05:50 ◼   ► - Wow.

00:05:51 ◼   ► - That is the most John answer I could have imagined.

00:05:54 ◼   ► All right, so let's talk about--

00:05:55 ◼   ► - That was actually slightly more upbeat

00:05:57 ◼   ► than I would have guessed.

00:05:58 ◼   ► (laughing)

00:05:59 ◼   ► - So let's talk about TSMC's 10 nanometers

00:06:03 ◼   ► versus Intel's 10 nanometers.

00:06:06 ◼   ► And we had somebody in the know write in,

00:06:10 ◼   ► and that person said,

00:06:12 ◼   ► "You know, I work for one of the companies involved,

00:06:14 ◼   ► "and they might be biased, but I like the show.

00:06:17 ◼   ► "This is this person talking."

00:06:18 ◼   ► And I just wanted to point out

00:06:19 ◼   ► that like so many other things in technology,

00:06:21 ◼   ► naming of process nodes has become

00:06:23 ◼   ► more marketing than reality.

00:06:25 ◼   ► So there's an article that talks about this,

00:06:26 ◼   ► and one of the recent tricks,

00:06:28 ◼   ► continues this anonymous emailer,

00:06:30 ◼   ► one of the recent tricks is to quote a distance

00:06:32 ◼   ► between features that are not electrically active.

00:06:35 ◼   ► So this allows you to quote a small number,

00:06:37 ◼   ► but of course doesn't do much

00:06:38 ◼   ► for increasing transistor density.

00:06:40 ◼   ► And another person, Julian Heatherbell wrote in to say

00:06:44 ◼   ► that TSMC's 10 nanometers is only a bit denser

00:06:47 ◼   ► than Intel's 14.

00:06:49 ◼   ► So Intel claims a three-year advantage on 10 nanometers

00:06:52 ◼   ► and wants to redefine everything.

00:06:53 ◼   ► We have another post about that.

00:06:55 ◼   ► And yet another post, which we'll put in the show notes

00:06:58 ◼   ► about how Intel may still be set

00:07:00 ◼   ► to lose process leadership after next year.

00:07:03 ◼   ► - Are you gonna race?

00:07:04 ◼   ► Are you in a hurry?

00:07:05 ◼   ► We got two episodes to fill here. You're like

00:07:07 ◼   ► Stretch it out. You know, you know the TV stretch out motion looks like you're pulling taffy. You know, yeah

00:07:14 ◼   ► Yeah, yeah doing the opposite. You're doing the the fingers rotating it together. Yeah. Yeah get it together

00:07:19 ◼   ► Do we really need to try hard to stretch out follow-up? Apparently we do because Casey's going for a speed run again

00:07:25 ◼   ► Let me just put a bow on this whole section of fault

00:07:28 ◼   ► There will be three links in this show notes if you want to read more about this

00:07:30 ◼   ► But the upshot is that a lot a lot of people wrote us to say

00:07:34 ◼   ► hey Intel 10 nanometer isn't gonna be way smaller than TSMC 10 nanometer and there's a lot of reasons for that and

00:07:41 ◼   ► Feature size is not very strictly defined as this a couple of these emailers pointed out, you know

00:07:48 ◼   ► You can quote unquote cheat by quoting distances that aren't meaningful or according distances that make your particular arrangement

00:07:54 ◼   ► Look good because again these are when they're laying out the things on the chips. It's a 3d arrangement of things

00:07:59 ◼   ► There's a layering vertical horizontal, you know, it's a three-dimensional. It's not just like

00:08:03 ◼   ► Even though it's done with you know lithography. It's not just two-dimensional like a drawing

00:08:07 ◼   ► It's actually a 3d shape and it influences what the distances are between things in any way

00:08:11 ◼   ► It's complicated but consensus was from all the different feedback and all different articles that

00:08:15 ◼   ► TSMC 10 nanometer is not as small as Intel 10 nanometer

00:08:20 ◼   ► It Intel still has a lead and that final link is like well

00:08:22 ◼   ► Maybe they have lead now, but they're gonna lose it in 2019 and later, and I guess we'll see

00:08:27 ◼   ► That was still fairly quick. Thank you very much

00:08:30 ◼   ► (laughing)

00:08:32 ◼   ► Just saying.

00:08:33 ◼   ► But you're right, we should stretch it out.

00:08:35 ◼   ► So, Steven Dean wrote in to say,

00:08:40 ◼   ► I can't even continue with this.

00:08:43 ◼   ► - I thought you were struggling to pronounce his name.

00:08:45 ◼   ► - No, no, no. (laughing)

00:08:46 ◼   ► - I'm like, wow, that was an easy one.

00:08:47 ◼   ► - Steven Dean, that one's really difficult.

00:08:50 ◼   ► So, Steven wrote in to say,

00:08:52 ◼   ► you're missing a lot of your movie sound

00:08:53 ◼   ► without a subwoofer.

00:08:54 ◼   ► Your atoms only go down to about 86 hertz,

00:08:57 ◼   ► which is normal cutoff for a non-full range.

00:09:00 ◼   ► Can you translate that into English for me?

00:09:02 ◼   ► - Yeah, so basically, you know, speakers,

00:09:04 ◼   ► because they are these giant moving things and everything,

00:09:06 ◼   ► there's a certain frequency range

00:09:07 ◼   ► that they're able to reproduce.

00:09:09 ◼   ► And what he's saying is that the low end

00:09:12 ◼   ► of the frequency range of the woofers

00:09:15 ◼   ► that are in my Paradigm Atom speakers,

00:09:18 ◼   ► they can't reproduce very, very, very low frequencies.

00:09:22 ◼   ► And subwoofers have a lower floor.

00:09:24 ◼   ► They can reproduce frequencies much lower.

00:09:28 ◼   ► And that is certainly one reason to have a subwoofer.

00:09:32 ◼   ► I think a better reason to have a subwoofer

00:09:33 ◼   ► is to get more bass energy.

00:09:37 ◼   ► You can get more of that thump, more of that slam,

00:09:41 ◼   ► unlike bass hits and sounds and stuff,

00:09:43 ◼   ► and you can also just get more volume and more spread.

00:09:47 ◼   ► That's probably the better reason to have it, honestly.

00:09:49 ◼   ► But my reasons for not liking subwoofers

00:09:52 ◼   ► and not really wanting one remain.

00:09:55 ◼   ► I designed my TV speaker setup to be really good for music

00:09:59 ◼   ► in a way that still is okay for TV.

00:10:02 ◼   ► And I think for music, I still largely prefer

00:10:06 ◼   ► two speakers, not surround, and for that to be

00:10:10 ◼   ► not with some big, booming, thumpy subwoofer

00:10:14 ◼   ► in the corner of the room.

00:10:16 ◼   ► Now I know there are ways to do it better.

00:10:19 ◼   ► However, the arrangement of my living room

00:10:21 ◼   ► is such that I don't really have a good place

00:10:23 ◼   ► to put a subwoofer or maybe even a pair of subwoofers

00:10:27 ◼   ► that would make any sense and that would sound good.

00:10:31 ◼   ► So, you know, lots of people have written in saying,

00:10:33 ◼   ► you know, you can put the subwoofer in good places,

00:10:35 ◼   ► there are good subwoofers, you know,

00:10:36 ◼   ► there are more of that, more ways to do it

00:10:39 ◼   ► than what I said last time.

00:10:40 ◼   ► And that is true, you know, in an ideal world,

00:10:43 ◼   ► but my living room is not an ideal world.

00:10:45 ◼   ► And so I have limitations of what I can put where,

00:10:50 ◼   ► how much space I have in the current arrangement,

00:10:53 ◼   ► how things need to look because we don't want everything

00:10:57 ◼   ► to just be this on like giant box.

00:10:58 ◼   ► So, you know, my setup is fine for me.

00:11:01 ◼   ► And if you want subwoofers in your setup

00:11:03 ◼   ► or if you want surround sound in your setup, cool.

00:11:06 ◼   ► I don't really mind either way.

00:11:08 ◼   ► - I don't know how the setup is good for music.

00:11:09 ◼   ► If you're giving up 20 to 86 hertz,

00:11:12 ◼   ► that entire frequency range,

00:11:13 ◼   ► that's present in music too.

00:11:15 ◼   ► It's not just movies with explosions that have it.

00:11:17 ◼   ► You know, I mean, all the things about volume,

00:11:18 ◼   ► obviously, yeah, maybe you want that exaggerated in a movie,

00:11:20 ◼   ► but just playing old music.

00:11:21 ◼   ► Music has bass too.

00:11:22 ◼   ► I know you don't like bass, usually,

00:11:23 ◼   ► in your headphone reviews, but you're missing out

00:11:26 ◼   ► on part of the spectrum. - No, that's not true.

00:11:28 ◼   ► I don't like when bass is all you hear.

00:11:31 ◼   ► And so, while, again, I agree that it would be nice

00:11:36 ◼   ► to have solid response across the whole frequency range

00:11:39 ◼   ► in practice, that's harder, it's way easier doing headphones

00:11:43 ◼   ► than it is in speakers.

00:11:44 ◼   ► Headphones, you only have one driver

00:11:46 ◼   ► and you can do a lot of easier things with it.

00:11:50 ◼   ► but with speakers you have to have large things

00:11:53 ◼   ► that depend on the arrangement of your room

00:11:55 ◼   ► and large boxes and large transducers of some kind

00:11:58 ◼   ► that vibrate up and down.

00:12:00 ◼   ► - Just get a HomePod, it'll figure out

00:12:01 ◼   ► how your room is arranged to make sure everything sounds okay.

00:12:03 ◼   ► - I'm actually really curious to hear

00:12:06 ◼   ► how the HomePod deals with bass.

00:12:08 ◼   ► Because it's one of those things,

00:12:09 ◼   ► it's kind of like how it's hard

00:12:12 ◼   ► for very, very small camera sensors

00:12:14 ◼   ► to do things that require big glass.

00:12:17 ◼   ► Bass reproduction is one of those things

00:12:20 ◼   ► where like at some point you kind of just need largeness.

00:12:24 ◼   ► Like you need like a large surface to vibrate slowly

00:12:28 ◼   ► to get some of that, you know?

00:12:30 ◼   ► And so it's very, very hard for any kind of very small

00:12:32 ◼   ► speaker to have good bass response.

00:12:35 ◼   ► That's why once the trend moved in computer speakers

00:12:38 ◼   ► and then later in home theater speakers,

00:12:40 ◼   ► once the trend moved to very, very small speakers,

00:12:44 ◼   ► they also had to add subwoofers

00:12:45 ◼   ► because the little tiny speakers

00:12:47 ◼   ► can reproduce the higher frequency, it's just fine,

00:12:49 ◼   ► but then they needed to add a subwoofer

00:12:51 ◼   ► to get the low frequencies.

00:12:52 ◼   ► And there was no way to make a small speaker

00:12:55 ◼   ► that could also do the low frequencies.

00:12:57 ◼   ► So the Amazon Echo definitely has this problem

00:12:59 ◼   ► where the bass on it is non-existent,

00:13:01 ◼   ► although the sound quality isn't very good anyway on it,

00:13:04 ◼   ► so maybe they just don't care.

00:13:05 ◼   ► But the HomePod, I would imagine they're gonna care

00:13:09 ◼   ► a lot about sound quality, so I am really curious

00:13:12 ◼   ► to see how they solve that problem,

00:13:13 ◼   ► if they solve that problem, or if they just crank up

00:13:16 ◼   ► the base in DSP within the speaker,

00:13:20 ◼   ► like artificially inflate the little bit of base they have

00:13:24 ◼   ► and just hope that's enough and call it a day.

00:13:27 ◼   ► - What was the biggest driver in the HomePod?

00:13:28 ◼   ► It was like four inches or six inches or something?

00:13:31 ◼   ► - I don't know, I should look that up.

00:13:33 ◼   ► Six inches is pretty big.

00:13:35 ◼   ► - The whole thing is not that big.

00:13:36 ◼   ► So we know it can't be, it's not bigger than the pod itself.

00:13:39 ◼   ► It actually is a pretty small little thing,

00:13:40 ◼   ► but yeah, it can't be that big of a speaker in there.

00:13:43 ◼   ► It's kind of a shame that, you know,

00:13:44 ◼   ► It was a question I had about them and I still have, although I think it's mostly been answered.

00:13:48 ◼   ► If you buy two of them like they recommend, it's not as if they act like stereo speakers.

00:13:52 ◼   ► It seems like they both just figure out how to best fill the room with sound, but each

00:13:56 ◼   ► one of them, it's not like one is the left speaker and one is the right.

00:13:59 ◼   ► And similarly, one doesn't just become the sub.

00:14:02 ◼   ► You know what I mean?

00:14:03 ◼   ► Like imagine if one could just do the low frequencies and it looks like a low sub or

00:14:07 ◼   ► for any of those, it's like the jellyfish.

00:14:08 ◼   ► But apparently they don't work that way.

00:14:11 ◼   ► we were living in Connecticut, so this is when I was in like high school, and dad had decided that

00:14:19 ◼   ► he wanted to take his home theater really seriously. And so not only did we have some

00:14:24 ◼   ► subwoofer somewhere in the corner of the room, but he actually installed, I believe the term was bass

00:14:29 ◼   ► shakers, or at least maybe that's a brand, like a Xerox thing. What is that, a proprietary eponym,

00:14:34 ◼   ► or whatever it is? But anyways, basically under the floor of the room, the TV room, there were a

00:14:40 ◼   ► a handful of basically vibrator motors like you would find in your phone, which is much

00:14:44 ◼   ► bigger. And they were wired into the amplifier and acted as ancillary subwoofers. So you

00:14:49 ◼   ► would literally feel explosions when you were watching movies. It was pretty cool at the

00:14:53 ◼   ► time.

00:14:54 ◼   ► >> Magic fingers, right?

00:14:55 ◼   ► >> I'm sure that's a reference, and I don't get it, but I'm just going to roll with it.

00:14:58 ◼   ► >> These terms all sound really gross.

00:15:00 ◼   ► >> Yeah, in the modern parlance, it's the local furniture store that has an IMAX theater.

00:15:06 ◼   ► This is a normal thing if you are from where I'm from.

00:15:08 ◼   ► >> Oh, my God.

00:15:09 ◼   ► has a thing called butt kickers.

00:15:12 ◼   ► - Yeah, it sounds similar.

00:15:13 ◼   ► - Yeah, the only thing they call them butt kickers.

00:15:15 ◼   ► (laughing)

00:15:16 ◼   ► And there's a literal thing in everybody's seat

00:15:18 ◼   ► that shakes you.

00:15:19 ◼   ► It's novel.

00:15:21 ◼   ► - It is novel, that's well put.

00:15:23 ◼   ► Also Marco, I wanna commend you for being okay

00:15:26 ◼   ► with not perfection.

00:15:27 ◼   ► 'Cause I completely agree with you.

00:15:28 ◼   ► Like it is unequivocally not perfection

00:15:32 ◼   ► to not have a subwoofer.

00:15:33 ◼   ► And to be okay with that is kind of freeing.

00:15:36 ◼   ► It's like, yeah,

00:15:37 ◼   ► it's the best it could possibly be.

00:15:39 ◼   ► "Okay."

00:15:39 ◼   ► Again, it's the living room setup, right?

00:15:41 ◼   ► Like, first of all, that is mostly used for TV.

00:15:44 ◼   ► I still want it to sound very good for music,

00:15:45 ◼   ► but it honestly is mostly used for TV,

00:15:47 ◼   ► and it sounds very good enough for TV for us.

00:15:51 ◼   ► And I even ran this by Tiff,

00:15:53 ◼   ► like when we started having all these discussions

00:15:54 ◼   ► and everyone's telling us,

00:15:55 ◼   ► "You have to get a standard channel.

00:15:56 ◼   ► "You have to get a standard channel.

00:15:57 ◼   ► "You can't use the stereo mix, it's terrible."

00:16:00 ◼   ► I asked Tiff, I'm like, "Hey, you wanna do all this stuff?

00:16:02 ◼   ► "It'll apparently sound better."

00:16:03 ◼   ► She's like, "No, that's it, just no."

00:16:05 ◼   ► And I'm like, "Okay, really, I don't either."

00:16:07 ◼   ► So I don't even know why I'm asking.

00:16:08 ◼   ► So there you go, no, we don't want it.

00:16:11 ◼   ► But yeah, I do understand it would be better.

00:16:13 ◼   ► But there are different factors here also,

00:16:16 ◼   ► like how we want it to look, how we actually use it,

00:16:19 ◼   ► how we actually live, so that's different.

00:16:21 ◼   ► When it comes to my headphones, on the other hand,

00:16:24 ◼   ► I actually recently bought a second pair

00:16:28 ◼   ► of my awesome best headphones in the world headphones,

00:16:32 ◼   ► the HiFi Man HG6, because they were discontinued

00:16:35 ◼   ► a couple years ago, and you can't get 'em anymore.

00:16:38 ◼   ► So I actually bought a used pair on a forum

00:16:40 ◼   ► that was in really like brand new condition basically.

00:16:42 ◼   ► And so now I have a backup of those

00:16:43 ◼   ► and of course I brought one here.

00:16:45 ◼   ► So because we're in the middle of a huge line,

00:16:48 ◼   ► a huge run of new fish shows.

00:16:50 ◼   ► I'm not gonna listen to that on my crap headphones.

00:16:52 ◼   ► I wanna listen to those on my awesome headphones.

00:16:54 ◼   ► So here I am.

00:16:55 ◼   ► - Right.

00:16:56 ◼   ► Right.

00:16:58 ◼   ► - In the middle of a huge run of fish shows

00:17:00 ◼   ► that before you finish that sentence,

00:17:01 ◼   ► it's like are the fish spawning?

00:17:03 ◼   ► Are they coming up onto the shore

00:17:05 ◼   ► and leaping into your house?

00:17:06 ◼   ► Like no, no, pH.

00:17:07 ◼   ► Well, yeah, well only one of them is good. But is this the thing that happens is like the weather like during the summer

00:17:13 ◼   ► That's when the fish shows come

00:17:15 ◼   ► Yeah

00:17:18 ◼   ► Crabs they just crawl across the landscape and lo there was fish

00:17:24 ◼   ► This surely, you know the Christmas Island crabs am I getting that right? Do you know what I'm talking about? You're asking us

00:17:34 ◼   ► Yeah, you're asking the wrong persons person person people

00:17:38 ◼   ► I think people's the word grabs if you have never googled Christmas Island crabs

00:17:42 ◼   ► You need to do that after whatever pause the show Google Christmas on crabs you should watch

00:17:47 ◼   ► The videos and look at some of the pictures then come back. Oh my god. You have to keep doing the show

00:17:54 ◼   ► Oh my god, what is that? What is going on? Why are they doing this? That's when the fish comes and

00:18:03 ◼   ► That's the representation of gigabytes of live music of songs that never end.

00:18:09 ◼   ► Oh my god, there's waves and waves of these things.

00:18:12 ◼   ► I see waves is a very good song.

00:18:14 ◼   ► And there's like three lyrics and then just a lot of guitar.

00:18:17 ◼   ► Oh my god.

00:18:18 ◼   ► Got your meat stick right here.

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00:20:14 ◼   ► We got a lot of people, a lot of, a lot of people write in with opinions about bicycles.

00:20:19 ◼   ► Who knew that so many people who listen to this show had opinions about bicycles?

00:20:23 ◼   ► But there are a lot of people that do.

00:20:26 ◼   ► And one of the things that was striking to me, and I wasn't really paying close attention

00:20:29 ◼   ► to the feedback to this because, quite frankly, I don't care.

00:20:32 ◼   ► However, a ton of people wrote in to say that Isla Bikes, that's I-S-L-A, which is apparently

00:20:40 ◼   ► a UK company, so this is www.ilabikes.co.uk, and they have a US distributor somewhere,

00:20:48 ◼   ► I think in Portland because Portland or somewhere in there abouts. Of course it's in Portland.

00:20:53 ◼   ► Right exactly. So anyways almost unanimously almost everyone who rode in said oh you should

00:21:00 ◼   ► get an Isla bike they're the best. They're expensive but they're the best. So I actually

00:21:03 ◼   ► took a note that when Declan is of age we need to look at these Isla bikes because there

00:21:08 ◼   ► was not a single person that said oh don't get an Isla they're overrated blah blah blah.

00:21:12 ◼   ► No everyone said get them. So we'll put a link in the show notes to their UK based website

00:21:18 ◼   ► And then what is this video that I presume John put in?

00:21:20 ◼   ► - Oh, that was just the pronunciation for the video

00:21:22 ◼   ► that I saw was cute.

00:21:23 ◼   ► We did get tons of suggestions.

00:21:24 ◼   ► The first one, they first started coming in,

00:21:25 ◼   ► I'm like, boy, we'll have lots of links to the show notes.

00:21:27 ◼   ► I'll put links to all these people's recommended

00:21:29 ◼   ► bike manufacturers, but then there were just too many.

00:21:31 ◼   ► Like there were just too many things.

00:21:32 ◼   ► So it's by, we just went with the majority rules.

00:21:35 ◼   ► I love bikes, got the most recommendations.

00:21:38 ◼   ► Second most recommendations was Wombikes,

00:21:40 ◼   ► W-O-O-M bikes.com.

00:21:43 ◼   ► I think they have a US location

00:21:45 ◼   ► 'cause the URL I have here is us.wombikes.com.

00:21:47 ◼   ► There were a ton of other places.

00:21:50 ◼   ► These are both obscure.

00:21:51 ◼   ► Some people were recommending less obscure things

00:21:54 ◼   ► like REI and specialized.

00:21:55 ◼   ► But a lot of, you know, anyway, bottom line is,

00:21:58 ◼   ► people are finding bikes that they find satisfying.

00:22:01 ◼   ► But we'll just put these two links in

00:22:03 ◼   ► if you're looking for ones that had the majority

00:22:05 ◼   ► of parents and/or bike nerds recommending them.

00:22:09 ◼   ► It was these two.

00:22:10 ◼   ► - Yeah, well, and there were a ton of bike recommendations

00:22:15 ◼   ► for what I should get,

00:22:16 ◼   ► not just what I should get for my son,

00:22:17 ◼   ► but also what I should get.

00:22:19 ◼   ► I think what I've decided,

00:22:20 ◼   ► and this is based on not actually riding any of these yet,

00:22:24 ◼   ► what I want is very, very low maintenance and simplicity.

00:22:27 ◼   ► So I basically came down to a few things

00:22:30 ◼   ► that became things that I really consider requirements

00:22:33 ◼   ► that end up ruling out most of what people recommend,

00:22:36 ◼   ► also preferences.

00:22:37 ◼   ► So because I'm doing most of my riding in a beach town,

00:22:40 ◼   ► for instance, I wanted two-inch tires,

00:22:43 ◼   ► not the little skinny one-inch ones

00:22:44 ◼   ► that are better for going fast on roads,

00:22:47 ◼   ► I want big two inch ones so that it's more comfortable,

00:22:50 ◼   ► it's better if I have to go on the edge of one of the walks

00:22:54 ◼   ► and go into a little packed sand for a second,

00:22:56 ◼   ► I won't immediately just stop and fall over

00:22:58 ◼   ► like a skin tire might, so stuff like that.

00:23:01 ◼   ► So basically my list of requirements became

00:23:03 ◼   ► I want something that could accommodate two inch tires

00:23:06 ◼   ► with fenders and the big ones are

00:23:09 ◼   ► I want belt drive instead of a chain

00:23:12 ◼   ► and I want there to be no, oh god,

00:23:15 ◼   ► I don't know how this is pronounced, derailleur, derailleur?

00:23:18 ◼   ► Derailleur, however, derailleur, whatever that thing is,

00:23:21 ◼   ► the little thing, yeah, whatever the thing is

00:23:23 ◼   ► that moves the gears.

00:23:24 ◼   ► - You want an internal geared hub and a belt drive,

00:23:28 ◼   ► you're so trendy, like you've never had a bike

00:23:30 ◼   ► with any one of these things,

00:23:31 ◼   ► but you already know that you want them

00:23:32 ◼   ► because somebody told you that a belt drive

00:23:33 ◼   ► is better than a chain.

00:23:35 ◼   ► - Well because--

00:23:36 ◼   ► - Internal is better than derailleur.

00:23:37 ◼   ► - Well, okay, first of all, because the bike I have here now

00:23:40 ◼   ► that came in the house in the basement

00:23:43 ◼   ► is a rusty old mountain bike that has a derailleur

00:23:45 ◼   ► and a rusty old chain.

00:23:46 ◼   ► - Yeah, but when they work, they work fine.

00:23:48 ◼   ► Believe me, they're fine.

00:23:49 ◼   ► - No, it's not fine, 'cause now we have better things.

00:23:53 ◼   ► It was fine when I was a kid when I had my mountain bike

00:23:55 ◼   ► when I was in high school.

00:23:57 ◼   ► - Modern bikes with derailleurs, I swear to you,

00:23:59 ◼   ► are absolutely fine.

00:24:00 ◼   ► They're, don't use your, anyway, internal gear, fine,

00:24:03 ◼   ► whatever, I haven't used them either.

00:24:04 ◼   ► I can't say that they're bad, I'm just saying,

00:24:06 ◼   ► don't poll them as hard and fast requirements.

00:24:08 ◼   ► - The really funny thing, Jon,

00:24:09 ◼   ► is that they now have bike CVTs.

00:24:11 ◼   ► - Oh my God. - Oh yeah, yeah.

00:24:12 ◼   ► - Look up NuVinci, and there's a CVT that's,

00:24:16 ◼   ► it's like about the same, it seems like it's about

00:24:17 ◼   ► in the same price tier as like a decent,

00:24:19 ◼   ► like 11-speed internal hub.

00:24:20 ◼   ► I just thought like, oh my God, if I get a CVT,

00:24:23 ◼   ► John will die, like, (laughs)

00:24:26 ◼   ► I will never hear the end of it.

00:24:28 ◼   ► - It'll be, well you already, I mean,

00:24:30 ◼   ► I was just thinking about this the other day.

00:24:32 ◼   ► Both of you are slowly, slowly fading from the manuals.

00:24:35 ◼   ► Marco doesn't even have any anymore.

00:24:36 ◼   ► Casey, well I guess you just replaced

00:24:38 ◼   ► a non-manual with a non-manual still.

00:24:40 ◼   ► - Exactly.

00:24:41 ◼   ► - I'm the only one who's holding strong here.

00:24:42 ◼   ► Anyway, you can take your CVT and just pretend it has gears

00:24:45 ◼   ► just like the software does in most modern cars.

00:24:47 ◼   ► Just make engine revving noises.

00:24:49 ◼   ► - Yeah, so basically, so my short list right now,

00:24:52 ◼   ► I'm still looking at various things.

00:24:54 ◼   ► Some of the headliners are Priority, the Priority company.

00:24:59 ◼   ► And I actually ordered a Priority Coast

00:25:01 ◼   ► to have here at the Beach House

00:25:02 ◼   ► for like a general purpose bike

00:25:04 ◼   ► 'cause we have lots of people here.

00:25:06 ◼   ► Tif wants to ride one also,

00:25:08 ◼   ► So I figure I'll get this, try it out.

00:25:10 ◼   ► It's belt drive, fixed gear, coaster brake.

00:25:13 ◼   ► So it's very simple.

00:25:14 ◼   ► It's also fairly affordable, it's like 400 bucks.

00:25:17 ◼   ► So I'm getting that to try it out.

00:25:19 ◼   ► At the high end, if I get into this

00:25:20 ◼   ► and I want a nice bike, probably for home,

00:25:23 ◼   ► I am very, very taken by the Budnitz bicycles,

00:25:27 ◼   ► or I assume it's pronounced Budnitz.

00:25:29 ◼   ► They're pretty expensive, but they're very nice.

00:25:31 ◼   ► And they basically make exactly what I want.

00:25:34 ◼   ► So I'm gonna try to find a showroom

00:25:35 ◼   ► and try one of those out if I want a nice bike for home.

00:25:38 ◼   ► It's probably a little expensive for the beach.

00:25:40 ◼   ► So for the beach, I'm looking at priority.

00:25:43 ◼   ► Honorable mention for Breezer and Electra,

00:25:47 ◼   ► everyone recommended these two brands.

00:25:49 ◼   ► And I would like to investigate them, like to see them.

00:25:52 ◼   ► Neither of them really make what I want.

00:25:55 ◼   ► Like they don't have all those things as a combination.

00:25:57 ◼   ► But yeah, both Breezer and Electra look really, really good.

00:26:01 ◼   ► Also everyone says Trek, you know,

00:26:02 ◼   ► there's a reason why Trek is so big and well known.

00:26:04 ◼   ► I find the amount of branding on Trek's bikes

00:26:08 ◼   ► a little bit garish.

00:26:09 ◼   ► Like, they'll cross the diagonal bar in the frame,

00:26:12 ◼   ► it just has those giant letters that say Trek!

00:26:15 ◼   ► Like, I don't really want that.

00:26:17 ◼   ► Like, I want something a little more low-key and subtle.

00:26:19 ◼   ► - Maybe get a Cannondale, they're subtle.

00:26:21 ◼   ► Do they still make those?

00:26:22 ◼   ► - Yes, they do.

00:26:23 ◼   ► - That's all of them.

00:26:24 ◼   ► - Yeah, and yeah, so again, wanting a belt drive,

00:26:28 ◼   ► internal gearing, two-inch tires, and minimal branding,

00:26:32 ◼   ► that rules out a lot of what people suggested.

00:26:35 ◼   ► (laughs)

00:26:37 ◼   ► So I will follow up if I buy anything more.

00:26:42 ◼   ► I'm gonna do the priority for the next few days

00:26:44 ◼   ► and then whenever it arrives, try that out.

00:26:47 ◼   ► And then if I love it, I'll just use that.

00:26:50 ◼   ► If I hate it, it'll be the Tif/Spare bike here

00:26:53 ◼   ► and I'll keep dropping.

00:26:54 ◼   ► - Wow.

00:26:55 ◼   ► - No, she wants it. - So generous of you.

00:26:56 ◼   ► - All right, one more question on bikes.

00:26:59 ◼   ► Why do you want fenders?

00:27:01 ◼   ► because the drainage on this island is not very good.

00:27:04 ◼   ► There's often very large puddles that I have to drive through

00:27:07 ◼   ► so I just don't want it to splash back up on my back.

00:27:10 ◼   ► Oh, and for everybody who's sending me the Ikea bike,

00:27:12 ◼   ► I did look at the Ikea Slada bike.

00:27:15 ◼   ► It is belt drive, it has internal two-speed gear.

00:27:18 ◼   ► It is, in my opinion, one of the most boring-looking bikes

00:27:23 ◼   ► I've ever seen.

00:27:24 ◼   ► I would like a bike to have some visual personality.

00:27:26 ◼   ► It doesn't, but not to scream its brand name

00:27:29 ◼   ► in giant letters on the frame,

00:27:30 ◼   ► But to have like, maybe a color that isn't just black and grey, like that would be nice.

00:27:35 ◼   ► You know, some kind of color.

00:27:37 ◼   ► Says the guy who buys black cars.

00:27:40 ◼   ► My car is bright red!

00:27:41 ◼   ► Mmm, this one was.

00:27:43 ◼   ► Although you know what though, this Priority Beach Cruiser bike that I ordered, it does happen to be white.

00:27:50 ◼   ► You know, it's funny Marco, that can happen to a person from time to time, can't it?

00:27:54 ◼   ► It was the only good color.

00:27:56 ◼   ► Funny how that is, Marco! You know, it can happen to a person from time to time, can't it?

00:28:03 ◼   ► [laughing]

00:28:05 ◼   ► You are the worst.

00:28:07 ◼   ► Ayayay, that's funny.

00:28:09 ◼   ► I can't wait to see pictures of you flow by on Instagram on your delightful white bike.

00:28:14 ◼   ► It honestly, it looks really good in white.

00:28:16 ◼   ► White is not a bad bike color. It's a terrible car color.

00:28:19 ◼   ► It's not a bad bike color.

00:28:20 ◼   ► I think this bike looks super dorky.

00:28:22 ◼   ► Which one, the Priority Coast that I ordered?

00:28:24 ◼   ► Mm-hmm.

00:28:25 ◼   ► It does, yes.

00:28:26 ◼   ► super dorky.

00:28:27 ◼   ► - This looks like a beach bike to me.

00:28:29 ◼   ► - It's a beach bike, yes.

00:28:30 ◼   ► And this company makes some, they make other varieties,

00:28:33 ◼   ► these priority bikes, they make other varieties

00:28:35 ◼   ► that are almost what I want.

00:28:37 ◼   ► Like the Continuomonics and the Classic Plus,

00:28:41 ◼   ► Gotham Edition, like they're almost what I want,

00:28:43 ◼   ► but they only have skinny tires.

00:28:45 ◼   ► And, 'cause they're made for commuters and stuff.

00:28:47 ◼   ► So yeah, I'm probably not gonna do that,

00:28:51 ◼   ► but I don't know.

00:28:52 ◼   ► Anyway, so this could be going on with us forever,

00:28:54 ◼   ► but we are in a huge hurry because we don't have any time tonight.

00:28:57 ◼   ► We really need to talk about all these Apple rumors because I'm sure no one's heard enough

00:29:02 ◼   ► about them on other podcasts yet.

00:29:04 ◼   ► Well there's that too.

00:29:06 ◼   ► We should also mention there's one other link in the show notes with regard to bikes.

00:29:08 ◼   ► Huffy apparently is being eaten by Walmart.

00:29:11 ◼   ► Do you want to explain this, John?

00:29:13 ◼   ► This is actually tangential to the larger Walmart issue.

00:29:16 ◼   ► A lot of stories about what is ruined by companies involved them pivoting to sell to super stores

00:29:24 ◼   ► because that's where all the money is and then having to make crappier and crappier

00:29:26 ◼   ► things and getting squeezed by the super stores that demand that you take smaller and smaller

00:29:30 ◼   ► profit margins and that's this Huffy story is actually something different it's where

00:29:34 ◼   ► Huffy got into a deal with Walmart and didn't realize how many bikes they'd actually sell

00:29:38 ◼   ► through Walmart and they couldn't actually manufacture them so they they let their competitors

00:29:42 ◼   ► manufacture them and sell them to Walmart and make the money from them anyway Walmart

00:29:46 ◼   ► is bad and we should all feel bad. But a lot of this is another bit of feedback from Ryan

00:29:54 ◼   ► Rickhard who said that Schwinn and Mongoose both pivoted to be bargain basement crap for

00:29:58 ◼   ► Walmart and Target. You know a lot of these companies the name remains kind of like Atari

00:30:03 ◼   ► or Commodore like the Mongoose name remains but it shares nothing with the brand of my

00:30:08 ◼   ► youth. You know everything about it the way the bikes are designed what they're made out

00:30:12 ◼   ► of where they're assembled, what their target market is, everything is just, you know, so

00:30:17 ◼   ► yeah, that's a shame.

00:30:19 ◼   ► And you can kind of tell by just looking at them, but yeah, superstores, and yet another

00:30:23 ◼   ► thing superstores have tried to ruin, bicycles.

00:30:26 ◼   ► I'm sorry, Jon.

00:30:29 ◼   ► It is what it is.

00:30:30 ◼   ► Jon, would you like to save face on your Christmas story line that you tried to quote?

00:30:36 ◼   ► The ATP references did me the favor of looking it up.

00:30:41 ◼   ► It's from IMDb and I always like, here's what I, whenever I look up movie quotes a lot,

00:30:45 ◼   ► because I want to get them right, it's important for me to get them right and to revalidate

00:30:48 ◼   ► the correct memory because very often I have a lot of movie quotes in my head and they

00:30:53 ◼   ► mutate over time.

00:30:54 ◼   ► As you repeat them, they change a little bit.

00:30:56 ◼   ► And so like 15 years into quoting something, you're like super duper sure it's one way

00:30:59 ◼   ► because you've said it a thousand times, right?

00:31:01 ◼   ► But it's changed like through a game of telephone only it's been inside your head the whole

00:31:05 ◼   ► time, right?

00:31:06 ◼   ► inside your head. Anyway, I always want to look them up, but I don't trust in the

00:31:10 ◼   ► internet text of someone like "oh here's this famous quote from this movie"

00:31:13 ◼   ► because text is not the movie, you know, the map is not the territory. I need to

00:31:18 ◼   ► see the video. I need to see the clip from the movie. And obviously that can be

00:31:22 ◼   ► doctored too, and I weep for our children who will be able to trust video even

00:31:26 ◼   ► less than we do due to the easy ability to synthesize audio and video. Sorry kids.

00:31:31 ◼   ► Anyway, that's progress for you. But according to IMDb, the upper handball side,

00:31:35 ◼   ► The line I was trying to quote last time from A Christmas Story is, "The greatest Christmas

00:31:40 ◼   ► gift I had ever received or ever would receive."

00:31:43 ◼   ► I think I missed the "had."

00:31:44 ◼   ► "The greatest Christmas gift I had ever received or would ever receive."

00:31:48 ◼   ► Anyway, there it is.

00:31:50 ◼   ► Nobody cares but me, but I do care.

00:31:52 ◼   ► Awesome.

00:31:53 ◼   ► That should be the title of my biography.

00:31:56 ◼   ► "Nobody cares but me, but I do care," the John Sir Q's story.

00:32:00 ◼   ► That's perfect.

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00:33:58 ◼   ► The good news is not a lot happened this week. So we can move right along. No, things have

00:34:10 ◼   ► happened, my friends. Things have happened. So let me do my best job as chief summarizer-in-chief

00:34:16 ◼   ► and kind of do a 50,000-foot summary, and then we'll dig into the details, which inevitably

00:34:20 ◼   ► means you two will interrupt me in about sentence three, and I will never get to complete my

00:34:25 ◼   ► But there was a HomePod firmware that was posted to the place one would expect HomePod firmware to be.

00:34:35 ◼   ► Do you guys say firmware or firmwares? I would say firmware as the plural.

00:34:39 ◼   ► You would say firmwares? Like softwares?

00:34:42 ◼   ► Well, that's why I would say firmware. But for a fleeting moment there, I just thought, "Well, should it be firmwares?"

00:34:47 ◼   ► No, it shouldn't be.

00:34:48 ◼   ► Wait, isn't "wares" how you're supposed to pronounce W-A-R-E-Z?

00:34:52 ◼   ► Oh, yes, that is true. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

00:34:54 ◼   ► - Yeah, that's a Z, but that's not what we're talking about.

00:34:56 ◼   ► - Did you ever say it that way in your head growing up?

00:34:58 ◼   ► 'Cause I always said Juarez and...

00:35:00 ◼   ► (laughing)

00:35:00 ◼   ► - You also say Mo.

00:35:02 ◼   ► Juarez and Mo.

00:35:03 ◼   ► - Juarez.

00:35:05 ◼   ► - No, no, there's a different place in Mexico, I think.

00:35:08 ◼   ► - No, I definitely said Weirs in my head.

00:35:10 ◼   ► Oh my word. - Yeah, I definitely

00:35:11 ◼   ► said Weirs too.

00:35:12 ◼   ► - I was gonna say you should cut this,

00:35:14 ◼   ► but no, this is worth it now.

00:35:15 ◼   ► (laughing)

00:35:16 ◼   ► So we gotta keep it in.

00:35:18 ◼   ► All right, so anyway.

00:35:19 ◼   ► So wherever you would expect the HomePod firmware,

00:35:21 ◼   ► singular yet plural, to be,

00:35:24 ◼   ► is where they found somebody had stumbled upon

00:35:27 ◼   ► firmware download.

00:35:28 ◼   ► And so a couple of people seemed to grab onto that,

00:35:32 ◼   ► well, many people, but particularly a couple of people

00:35:34 ◼   ► seemed to grab on this and start digging it apart.

00:35:36 ◼   ► A friend of the show--

00:35:38 ◼   ► - Ferwaras.

00:35:38 ◼   ► (laughing)

00:35:41 ◼   ► - Can you concentrate?

00:35:43 ◼   ► We're professionals.

00:35:44 ◼   ► - That's a seven second ago joke, Mark.

00:35:45 ◼   ► Keep up.

00:35:46 ◼   ► (laughing)

00:35:48 ◼   ► - All right, let's bring it back together, kids.

00:35:51 ◼   ► Bring it back together.

00:35:52 ◼   ► So two people really dug into this in particular.

00:35:55 ◼   ► And the two people were Steve Trouton-Smith,

00:35:58 ◼   ► who is a dear friend of the show,

00:36:00 ◼   ► and Guillermo Rambo, who also did a lot of digging on this.

00:36:05 ◼   ► And so they found a lot of interesting stuff.

00:36:08 ◼   ► And the highlights were an image that is for an iPhone

00:36:12 ◼   ► that is code named D22,

00:36:14 ◼   ► that looks like the image that we've seen off and on

00:36:18 ◼   ► of this supposed iPhone Pro,

00:36:20 ◼   ► where it seems to be an edge-to-edge screen.

00:36:22 ◼   ► There's like a little notch at the top,

00:36:24 ◼   ► which presumably holds the speaker and the FaceTime camera.

00:36:27 ◼   ► There was some information about how apparently

00:36:32 ◼   ► there will be front-facing IR camera

00:36:34 ◼   ► that presumably looks to be for face detection

00:36:39 ◼   ► and a bunch of other stuff too.

00:36:41 ◼   ► But that's kind of the quick, quick, quick summary.

00:36:43 ◼   ► So how would we like to dig into this?

00:36:46 ◼   ► - I'll tell you one way we did not wanna dig into this

00:36:48 ◼   ► is by spraying bug spray on our legs earlier

00:36:51 ◼   ► so I could weed whack all the tick-infested grass

00:36:53 ◼   ► out in front of the house,

00:36:55 ◼   ► and then coming inside, doing a podcast

00:36:56 ◼   ► with you fine gentlemen, putting my hands on my legs,

00:37:00 ◼   ► and then remember my eyes.

00:37:01 ◼   ► - Ooh, that's not wise.

00:37:03 ◼   ► Do you need a moment to collect yourself?

00:37:05 ◼   ► - It's slowly going away.

00:37:06 ◼   ► I think I might be okay.

00:37:08 ◼   ► - Or you might go blind soon.

00:37:09 ◼   ► - Next time, just accept the bug bites.

00:37:11 ◼   ► - Well, there's ticks out there.

00:37:12 ◼   ► I don't want any tick bites.

00:37:14 ◼   ► (laughs)

00:37:15 ◼   ► Oh, God, I'm just gonna, I'm gonna try not to touch my face.

00:37:17 ◼   ► I'm like, "I'll just put it on my legs. That way it won't be a problem for the rest of

00:37:20 ◼   ► the night like it is when you put it on your whole body." Because all you really need for

00:37:23 ◼   ► ticks is to put it on your feet and legs.

00:37:26 ◼   ► I found one tick on me on Long Island just a couple days ago and it was not on my legs.

00:37:30 ◼   ► Yikes. All right. I don't want to hear the rest of that story.

00:37:34 ◼   ► Yeah, this sounds super ominous.

00:37:36 ◼   ► It had not bitten me yet. It was still crawling trying to find a place to bite.

00:37:39 ◼   ► That's good.

00:37:40 ◼   ► I removed it with prejudice.

00:37:41 ◼   ► With prejudice.

00:37:42 ◼   ► All right, so what do we think of D22?

00:37:48 ◼   ► So I think, well, here's a couple things.

00:37:50 ◼   ► So this, well, I don't know if we want to go into the leaking things.

00:37:54 ◼   ► I guess we'll go into that at the end.

00:37:55 ◼   ► But the information revealed, once you leak the HomePod firmware, people think, well,

00:38:00 ◼   ► so what?

00:38:01 ◼   ► Who cares if they leak the HomePod firmware?

00:38:02 ◼   ► Well, the HomePod's not out yet.

00:38:03 ◼   ► We already know what it is.

00:38:04 ◼   ► It's a speaker-turdy thing.

00:38:07 ◼   ► Why would we get any information from that?

00:38:10 ◼   ► And it's because it runs iOS.

00:38:11 ◼   ► iOS has a bunch of crap in it and normally that crap is removed from

00:38:15 ◼   ► builds that they release to the public even in the betas they remove all the

00:38:18 ◼   ► stuff that they don't want you to see what might they not want you to see

00:38:22 ◼   ► icons frameworks you know the names of symbols program retype stuff and the

00:38:30 ◼   ► people who pulled down this homepot firmware you know extract that stuff

00:38:34 ◼   ► they look at all the frameworks and look at the names of the frameworks and the

00:38:36 ◼   ► names of the functions and the symbols that are in them look at all of the

00:38:40 ◼   ► resources for different kinds of icons and graphics and stuff like that that

00:38:44 ◼   ► appears in dialog boxes and in the UI and you can learn a tremendous amount

00:38:48 ◼   ► without even executing any of this code just because it happens to be iOS and

00:38:52 ◼   ► this build doesn't have all this stuff excluded from it. So we learned "learned"

00:38:56 ◼   ► quote-unquote a lot of interesting things just by looking at the framework

00:39:00 ◼   ► names and the symbols and there's the whole frameworks having to do and you

00:39:03 ◼   ► know classes and methods having to do with things about face recognition and

00:39:06 ◼   ► and recognizing different kinds of faces, and why would that be in there? Well, we all

00:39:11 ◼   ► have the rumors about it recognizing your face, you put two and two together, and you say,

00:39:14 ◼   ► "That's probably what that is." Down to the point where you're looking at attributes on classes that

00:39:18 ◼   ► say, like, inset and border radius and stuff that's sort of confirming the idea that the entire edge

00:39:24 ◼   ► to edge screen will be addressable with sort of curves around the edges, you know? And classes

00:39:30 ◼   ► that might indicate how they might handle the home button at the bottom of the screen and displaying

00:39:35 ◼   ► things there and stuff like that. So it's kind of tea leaf reading in that we don't have any actual

00:39:40 ◼   ► leaked hardware for the phone or anything like that. What we just have is a bunch of

00:39:44 ◼   ► symbols and functions. But if you're a programmer and you're familiar with UIKit and the rest of

00:39:48 ◼   ► iOS and just programming in general, you can kind of piece together a surprisingly detailed picture

00:39:54 ◼   ► of how this new phone might work based on the iOS that was released as part of the HomePod,

00:40:02 ◼   ► you know, HomePod's OS release. And so it's kind of a weird, kind of a weird leak. But it just goes

00:40:08 ◼   ► to show that like anything on the internet, you don't like it. Security through obscurity is no

00:40:15 ◼   ► security at all. It never has been, but in the age of the internet, even less so. But I was fascinated

00:40:20 ◼   ► to see the slow leak of people pulling out all the different details of the OS to the point where

00:40:27 ◼   ► There was a really good blog post by Alan Pike where he puts it all together and says,

00:40:32 ◼   ► "Based on everything that we've seen, here's one way that I think the theoretical phone

00:40:36 ◼   ► might work from a software perspective."

00:40:39 ◼   ► So we've got hardware rumors, and then we've got a leak of the HomePod thing, and then

00:40:44 ◼   ► from that, synthesize this entire complete picture of one way that the OS might work.

00:40:49 ◼   ► Now, it could be entirely wrong.

00:40:51 ◼   ► It could be something different than this, but I was pretty impressed by this.

00:40:56 ◼   ► you know, just the normal parts leak that you get plus a bunch of class dumps and icon

00:41:03 ◼   ► files, and now we have like a complete iPhone Pro possible scenario supported by all the

00:41:11 ◼   ► available leaked evidence that I think actually is pretty cool. If they don't do this, I hope

00:41:15 ◼   ► they do something just as cool because I read this thing and I'm like, "That A makes sense,

00:41:20 ◼   ► B fits with everything that we've been leaked, and C is pretty neat."

00:41:23 ◼   ► - Yeah, I completely agree.

00:41:25 ◼   ► - Yeah, I mean like this, it does like,

00:41:28 ◼   ► I'm not a fan of the idea of this weird cutout

00:41:32 ◼   ► into the screen with the cameras and everything.

00:41:34 ◼   ► Like I don't like that, it seems like a weird hack.

00:41:38 ◼   ► But if they're going to do it,

00:41:40 ◼   ► this looks like a really cool way to do it.

00:41:42 ◼   ► Like with the whole idea of having a split status bar

00:41:45 ◼   ► such that basically you,

00:41:48 ◼   ► it's almost as if the screen's not cut out.

00:41:50 ◼   ► It's almost like, if applications don't really

00:41:52 ◼   ► have access to that area, or if you only get it in things

00:41:56 ◼   ► like overscroll areas under navigation bars

00:42:00 ◼   ► and stuff like that, then it's still weird,

00:42:04 ◼   ► but it's a clever hack.

00:42:06 ◼   ► It's a good question about things like where the clock goes

00:42:11 ◼   ► and what about stuff that won't fit in the cutouts.

00:42:13 ◼   ► Like, there's a lot in the status bar these days.

00:42:17 ◼   ► Things like not having--

00:42:18 ◼   ► - Not as much as on Android, though.

00:42:20 ◼   ► - Well, that's true, yeah.

00:42:21 ◼   ► I was just about to say the same thing.

00:42:23 ◼   ► Oh my goodness, looking at my coworkers' Android phones

00:42:27 ◼   ► that have just a mountain of icons up there.

00:42:30 ◼   ► It's like a ticker tape. - Out of the box they have that.

00:42:31 ◼   ► My sister got a new Android phone that I just saw.

00:42:33 ◼   ► Like fresh out of the box, no weird stuff on it.

00:42:36 ◼   ► A Samsung Android phone, 100 icons in the status bar.

00:42:39 ◼   ► I may be overestimating, but only slightly.

00:42:41 ◼   ► - Oh, it's so true.

00:42:42 ◼   ► It's like a ticker tape of icons.

00:42:43 ◼   ► And I think it's bad.

00:42:45 ◼   ► - That's like every Mac user you've ever seen in your office

00:42:47 ◼   ► has 100 icons in their menu bar, Casey.

00:42:50 ◼   ► No, I have fewer than most, thank you very much.

00:42:52 ◼   ► You just are hating on the i-STAT menus

00:42:54 ◼   ► that I have up there.

00:42:55 ◼   ► But no, I've like the fact,

00:42:58 ◼   ► if you have to install Bartender,

00:43:00 ◼   ► which I'm sure is a very great app,

00:43:01 ◼   ► if you have to install Bartender,

00:43:03 ◼   ► you have bigger problems, my friend,

00:43:05 ◼   ► than just moving some of them out of your menu bar.

00:43:08 ◼   ► Like you should just get them out into, oh God,

00:43:11 ◼   ► I hate apps that force a menu bar icon at Trash Me Bananas.

00:43:14 ◼   ► - Oh, so actually I've derailed myself

00:43:17 ◼   ► looking at the top of this notes.

00:43:19 ◼   ► There's a couple of, I mean, look, looking at the symbols

00:43:21 ◼   ► and everything and having face recognition symbols,

00:43:23 ◼   ► like that is not as big a slam dunk as people think.

00:43:25 ◼   ► If we didn't already have the face recognition rumor,

00:43:28 ◼   ► there's all sorts of weird symbols on there.

00:43:29 ◼   ► And maybe it wouldn't ship, maybe it's not ready.

00:43:31 ◼   ► Like we didn't see, we didn't see the internal builds

00:43:33 ◼   ► of iOS 10, for all we know, these symbols could have been

00:43:35 ◼   ► in there in iOS 10, they just didn't make the cut,

00:43:37 ◼   ► you know, or something like that or whatever, right?

00:43:38 ◼   ► But we have all those other rumors

00:43:40 ◼   ► about being face recognition.

00:43:41 ◼   ► So this, you know, it all adds up, right?

00:43:43 ◼   ► The other part of this though, is all the rumors

00:43:46 ◼   ► about the little unibrow thing, the little notch, the cut.

00:43:48 ◼   ► I mean, we saw that little notch thing.

00:43:50 ◼   ► I think we talked about it when we were talking about

00:43:51 ◼   ► Touch ID being on the back

00:43:53 ◼   ► and how they're gonna do a screen thing edge to edge

00:43:55 ◼   ► and what they can and can embed in the screen.

00:43:57 ◼   ► And apparently they can embed like the cameras

00:43:59 ◼   ► and if there's gonna be an IR sensor

00:44:00 ◼   ► and the speaker and blah, blah, blah.

00:44:01 ◼   ► So there's this notch.

00:44:02 ◼   ► I think one of you, maybe Marco thought it was,

00:44:04 ◼   ► the notch just doesn't seem like an Apple thing to do

00:44:06 ◼   ► way back when, when we talked about it.

00:44:07 ◼   ► You know, it's not elegant.

00:44:09 ◼   ► Like you just said before, like the notch seems weird.

00:44:10 ◼   ► Doesn't it?

00:44:11 ◼   ► Like, well, wouldn't it be great

00:44:12 ◼   ► if the whole thing was screened?

00:44:13 ◼   ► It would be, oh, but we can't quite pull it off.

00:44:15 ◼   ► So what can we do?

00:44:16 ◼   ► well, we'll do the best we can and leave this little notch, right?

00:44:20 ◼   ► And that's always been the question.

00:44:21 ◼   ► Apple wouldn't do it unless they could do the whole screen.

00:44:23 ◼   ► They're not going to do a little notch thing.

00:44:24 ◼   ► Kind of like people saying Apple's not going to put a camera that causes a bulge, but they

00:44:28 ◼   ► totally did because it's more worth it to have a really good camera than to make the

00:44:32 ◼   ► back of it smooth, so camera bulge is here to stay.

00:44:35 ◼   ► And so in the HomePod firmware leak, there is an icon for D22 that is just, it's not

00:44:41 ◼   ► a picture of the new iPhone.

00:44:43 ◼   ► It's an icon, like a little vector drawing or whatever of the thing.

00:44:46 ◼   ► But it has to look iconic, it has to let you know by looking at this little icon, this

00:44:49 ◼   ► is the phone we're talking about.

00:44:51 ◼   ► So it just basically looks like a rounded rectangle I imagine for the 7 and 7+ sizes,

00:44:55 ◼   ► right?

00:44:56 ◼   ► But this one has the notch in it.

00:44:58 ◼   ► And it's the only thing in it, it is a rounded rectangle and the only distinguishing characteristic

00:45:01 ◼   ► other than the width and height and the border radius is the notch.

00:45:06 ◼   ► And so this is a pretty hard confirmation of that notch because they're not waffling

00:45:10 ◼   ► about whether there's going to be a notch at this point.

00:45:12 ◼   ► This icon is in there and it doesn't seem like they would have this thing, the code

00:45:17 ◼   ► name D22 is right on what you expect it to be.

00:45:19 ◼   ► So this thing is going to have a notch.

00:45:20 ◼   ► And that's weird.

00:45:21 ◼   ► And it's like the camera bump but even worse.

00:45:24 ◼   ► It's not as bad as Touch ID on the back but it is a weird thing to do.

00:45:27 ◼   ► And so Apple, rumors are that this all screen OLED phone has been in the works for a long

00:45:34 ◼   ► time and not that I'm saying it's behind schedule but I bet Apple would have loved to ship it

00:45:38 ◼   ► last year but they couldn't, it wasn't ready and now it's ready.

00:45:40 ◼   ► They're going with the notch.

00:45:41 ◼   ► So for me, from this leak, the most important thing about it is, notch is a go.

00:45:47 ◼   ► Get ready for notch.

00:45:48 ◼   ► Get ready to love the notch.

00:45:49 ◼   ► Get ready to deal with the notch.

00:45:50 ◼   ► Get ready to fix your application that gets screwed up when the notch is there.

00:45:55 ◼   ► Also on a past conversation about, "Hey, they changed the dots to be bars.

00:45:58 ◼   ► You think they did that to make room for the notch?"

00:46:01 ◼   ► And it was like, "Well, maybe, but we didn't even know if there's going to be a notch."

00:46:04 ◼   ► Well, there's going to be a notch.

00:46:05 ◼   ► So no more dots.

00:46:06 ◼   ► Back to bars makes perfect sense.

00:46:08 ◼   ► I think what I like about this leak though is that it gives us enough to be really interested

00:46:14 ◼   ► in this, but there's still so much that we don't know that we're only going to know once

00:46:19 ◼   ► we see the software running on the phone, which we're probably, which we're almost certainly

00:46:23 ◼   ► not going to see before the event.

00:46:25 ◼   ► So like even though we, like leading up to this we had the idea of a lot of the major

00:46:30 ◼   ► themes of this device leading up, you know, for almost the last year in all the rumors

00:46:35 ◼   ► and everything. But we didn't know many specifics and most of the things that we'd

00:46:40 ◼   ► see leaked or rumored or talked about here and there would be very vague and very unsure

00:46:46 ◼   ► of themselves and often times conflicting. And so now, even though this is now pretty

00:46:53 ◼   ► strong evidence of it being a certain way and so some of that surprise is now kind of

00:46:58 ◼   ► spoiled, what we have now learned, and again it's not like knowledge, it isn't a fact,

00:47:05 ◼   ► isn't a guarantee, it's just very strong evidence in a certain direction. But what

00:47:10 ◼   ► this nearly confirms is not something that was totally unknown to us. Like, there were

00:47:18 ◼   ► rumors of all these things. There were rumors of the notch, there were rumors of the face

00:47:24 ◼   ► detection type stuff and depth cameras and everything. All that stuff was rumored for

00:47:29 ◼   ► months and that was already becoming the dominant narrative of the rumors. That was becoming

00:47:34 ◼   ► and where most of them were coalescing and gathering.

00:47:38 ◼   ► So it didn't actually spoil much surprise.

00:47:43 ◼   ► It just says, all right, this group of the rumors,

00:47:47 ◼   ► which was already the predominant ones,

00:47:49 ◼   ► this is probably on the right path.

00:47:51 ◼   ► But there's still so many questions

00:47:54 ◼   ► that it's still very interesting to us.

00:47:56 ◼   ► And most of those questions are not going

00:47:58 ◼   ► to be answered until the event.

00:48:00 ◼   ► - They added some information too,

00:48:01 ◼   ► like again with the symbol dumps,

00:48:03 ◼   ► stuff that we wouldn't have known normally until the keynote because it's software based,

00:48:06 ◼   ► right? So there's a bunch of symbols having to do with apparently the camera detecting what it is

00:48:12 ◼   ► you're taking a picture of. You're taking a picture of a person. Is it a plant? Is it a sunset? Is it,

00:48:16 ◼   ► you know, whatever it might be. Most modern regular cameras have something, "Oh, I can tell

00:48:21 ◼   ► it's portrait versus landscape because I do simple face detection." But this was way more detailed.

00:48:25 ◼   ► I find the link to put all things in it. But it was like figuring out in a fairly detailed manner

00:48:30 ◼   ► what it is you're looking at.

00:48:32 ◼   ► And what will it do with that information

00:48:33 ◼   ► besides putting the word hot dog or not hot dog on the screen

00:48:35 ◼   ► like presumably you can adjust the camera

00:48:38 ◼   ► based on what it's looking at.

00:48:40 ◼   ► I get that reference.

00:48:41 ◼   ► It could metadata tag them or something.

00:48:44 ◼   ► I mean, who knows, but like those symbols are in there

00:48:46 ◼   ► for, you know, and there's all sorts of other stuff

00:48:48 ◼   ► about face detection or we assume about face detection

00:48:52 ◼   ► whereas the face is half covered,

00:48:54 ◼   ► the face is smiling or frowning or like all,

00:48:57 ◼   ► tons of symbols that only make sense if this phone with these set of sensors on it can

00:49:02 ◼   ► figure out way more about what it's looking at, whether it's looking at it to take a picture

00:49:06 ◼   ► or looking at it to unlock your phone or whatever, all these symbols indicate that there are

00:49:10 ◼   ► surely features somewhere in iOS 11 running on this phone that are based on the camera

00:49:16 ◼   ► having a much richer awareness of what's going on around it, also including presence detection,

00:49:20 ◼   ► are you in front of the phone or whatever.

00:49:22 ◼   ► So that I think added information.

00:49:23 ◼   ► None of that stuff had been rumored.

00:49:25 ◼   ► like wow, you know, the rumors are, oh, it's gonna have camera and a notch and an IR sensor

00:49:29 ◼   ► and a face detection unlock.

00:49:30 ◼   ► That's all the stuff that would leak.

00:49:32 ◼   ► But the keynote would be like, oh, and also, now that we have all those sensors, you know

00:49:36 ◼   ► what we can do?

00:49:37 ◼   ► We can know when you take a picture of a dog and tag it with dog and make the smart search

00:49:43 ◼   ► easier when you search for dog, even if you took a picture of the tip of the dog's tail,

00:49:47 ◼   ► we, you know, we figured that out.

00:49:48 ◼   ► And like, I don't know, like features like that are things normally we don't get to see

00:49:52 ◼   ► until the day of.

00:49:53 ◼   ► this is one of the biggest software leaks that has ever happened to Apple

00:49:56 ◼   ► because I think it reveals potentially so much about stuff that they're gonna

00:50:02 ◼   ► demo that they just assume no one would know about because in general the

00:50:05 ◼   ► software doesn't leak. I mean this is this is a given to the leak stuff this is

00:50:09 ◼   ► a pretty big leak in terms of just oops like we didn't mean to put this build

00:50:15 ◼   ► there by the way if you're wondering why why is this build accessible at all home

00:50:19 ◼   ► Pods have been testing on Apple employees and other people who are in the know have been testing home pods for a long time and

00:50:25 ◼   ► They have a feed for software updates

00:50:27 ◼   ► But that is a fee that is not accessible to the general public's only accessible to Apple employees, right?

00:50:32 ◼   ► Someone made a mistake and took the firmware that's supposed to go in that fee

00:50:37 ◼   ► That's only accessible to Apple employees and put it on the public facing one and that is a pretty big mistake

00:50:42 ◼   ► like it's kind of like taking you know, I don't know like

00:50:46 ◼   ► iOS 11 before any of the betas came out and putting in a publicly accessible URL on the internet and

00:50:51 ◼   ► Again, if the security through obscurity, it's like well you put something on the URL

00:50:56 ◼   ► That's accessible internet as long as no one knows the URL

00:50:58 ◼   ► It's like people are randomly typing in URLs to guess where your thing might be

00:51:02 ◼   ► That's exactly what they're doing and the URL was guessable because you just replace the word TV with the word audio in

00:51:07 ◼   ► an existing URL for the TV OS updates and guess what you got this and

00:51:13 ◼   ► Somebody had a really bad day at Apple and I feel bad because you know it's you're human you make mistakes

00:51:18 ◼   ► It just goes to show all the security and all these billions of dollars they spend

00:51:22 ◼   ► You know it's not I don't think this is a small delicious. Just someone someone made a mistake

00:51:27 ◼   ► We all like mistakes sometimes you leave a phone in a bar sometimes you sometimes you upload the

00:51:32 ◼   ► The unredacted version of the new iOS that includes all the secret symbols for your new super secret phone

00:51:40 ◼   ► Onto a public URL and so I feel I feel kind of bad

00:51:43 ◼   ► but I'm also kind of excited about exactly how much we were able to mine out of this and like Margo said and still and

00:51:49 ◼   ► Still we're not sure we still we have to wait for the keynote to see which things are which it's a it's a little bit

00:51:54 ◼   ► Of spoiling Christmas morning to know how you know because I can extrapolate so many things that could possibly be there

00:51:59 ◼   ► And the keynote will just be a narrowing but still pretty exciting

00:52:02 ◼   ► Do you um I don't have the link handy, but there maybe it was an Allen's

00:52:07 ◼   ► I don't think it was though. But anyways, there was someone who was critiquing. No, it was a different UI designer.

00:52:12 ◼   ► Critiquing what do you do with the notch? And there's like one of the approaches

00:52:18 ◼   ► is you pretend the notch isn't really there. And one of the approaches is you embrace the notch.

00:52:23 ◼   ► And I think it was Steve Trout and Smith that was saying, "Oh, I say embrace the notch.

00:52:27 ◼   ► You know, make it visible, make it plain." But from what I see on like, for example, Allen's post

00:52:33 ◼   ► Where it's just a big black bar and presumably this is OLED

00:52:37 ◼   ► So it would just kind of all blend in and there would just be this big gap in the center of the black bar

00:52:41 ◼   ► But you wouldn't necessarily be able to tell very well. What was there?

00:52:45 ◼   ► I think I like that at a glance more than this like embrace the notch make it white to the left and the right of the notch

00:52:51 ◼   ► What do you guys think about that? Let's start with Marco totally with you

00:52:56 ◼   ► I think the design that

00:52:58 ◼   ► makes the parts left and right of the notch just black

00:53:01 ◼   ► and makes it look like a big status bar,

00:53:04 ◼   ► that to me is by far the best looking option here.

00:53:07 ◼   ► And that is the one that I think they should

00:53:10 ◼   ► and hopefully will do.

00:53:12 ◼   ► But there is a risk, I don't know if it's a big risk,

00:53:15 ◼   ► there's a risk that the desire to have these overflow areas,

00:53:20 ◼   ► these overscroll areas in the UI,

00:53:24 ◼   ► someone had like, you know, when I was seven,

00:53:26 ◼   ► ever since I was seven, you've had like,

00:53:28 ◼   ► if you have a navigation bar or a toolbar in an interface,

00:53:31 ◼   ► you have the blurred version of the scroll view

00:53:35 ◼   ► in the middle kinda underhanging the top and bottom,

00:53:39 ◼   ► like it kinda overflows into those areas as you scroll.

00:53:41 ◼   ► I can see maybe the Apple UI designers

00:53:44 ◼   ► wanting to do more of that

00:53:45 ◼   ► with this new found screen real estate

00:53:47 ◼   ► and to have these new areas,

00:53:50 ◼   ► both the little tabs next to the status bar

00:53:53 ◼   ► and also the new presumed home button area at the bottom,

00:53:58 ◼   ► I could see those becoming just overscroll areas,

00:54:02 ◼   ► but I hope they don't do that.

00:54:03 ◼   ► I hope, if anything, if they wanna do that,

00:54:06 ◼   ► just make it the bottom one and not little tabs on top,

00:54:09 ◼   ► because having this big like, you know,

00:54:12 ◼   ► file card shaped UI I think looks weird.

00:54:15 ◼   ► I don't like having those two tabs at the top

00:54:17 ◼   ► be visibly like light colored UI.

00:54:21 ◼   ► I think it should just look like a big status bar,

00:54:23 ◼   ► and you shouldn't even really, really,

00:54:26 ◼   ► really think about the notch most of the time.

00:54:28 ◼   ► >> I agree.

00:54:29 ◼   ► >> So, as I think it was Steve Trout and Smith pointed this out, but I think people have

00:54:33 ◼   ► noted this as well.

00:54:34 ◼   ► The thing that we extracted, we, the thing that has been extracted by industrious hackers

00:54:40 ◼   ► from the firmware is an icon of the phone.

00:54:43 ◼   ► And it's supposed to be identifiable, so you look at that and you know, oh, they're talking

00:54:46 ◼   ► about whatever, the iPhone Pro or the iPhone 8, whatever this thing's going to be called.

00:54:50 ◼   ► So it needs to be a recognizable symbol at small sizes.

00:54:54 ◼   ► And the only distinguishing fixture of that icon is the notch.

00:54:57 ◼   ► So in order for people to look at that and say, "Oh, that means my phone," which is the

00:55:01 ◼   ► purpose of the icon, that notch has to be a distinguishing visual characteristics of

00:55:07 ◼   ► the phone as far as the users are concerned.

00:55:09 ◼   ► Otherwise that icon is not useful for identifying it.

00:55:11 ◼   ► So that could be as simple as, "Okay, well, it works exactly like you guys were just describing

00:55:16 ◼   ► when you use it.

00:55:17 ◼   ► We pretend it's not there and it's just like the status bar.

00:55:20 ◼   ► But the lock screen, for example, when we show your big lock screen picture, that shows

00:55:24 ◼   ► with the notch all the time.

00:55:25 ◼   ► Because that would make, you know, that's your first experience of turning on the phone,

00:55:29 ◼   ► you know, or seeing the lock screen or whatever, that, oh, it's got a notch, right?

00:55:32 ◼   ► If the notch goes away when you launch apps, you still recognize it as the phone with the

00:55:36 ◼   ► notch because that's what you see when you first turn it on.

00:55:39 ◼   ► But I think at the very least, Apple is embracing the notch to the degree that this icon is

00:55:46 ◼   ► representative.

00:55:47 ◼   ► mean you're gonna see it the whole time you're using it inside applications but

00:55:50 ◼   ► it does mean that they're embracing it somewhere probably in the lock screen

00:55:55 ◼   ► maybe also in springboard maybe also it I mean I'm trying to think of you know

00:56:01 ◼   ► if developers wanted to could they address it and show video in the notch

00:56:05 ◼   ► like overflow video like who knows how far developers would be able to go but

00:56:09 ◼   ► it seems clear to me that Apple in the same way they essentially embrace the

00:56:13 ◼   ► camera bump by saying we're not hiding it it's there it's a camera bump look at

00:56:17 ◼   ► There's going to be a notch and I think there has to be at least some context where the notch is absolutely visible and

00:56:23 ◼   ► Distinguishing and a distinguishing characteristic to people. I

00:56:26 ◼   ► Also would prefer like both of you. All right, fine. I see the notch I get your branding

00:56:32 ◼   ► I can identify my phone, but once I'm using the application

00:56:34 ◼   ► Don't you know, I don't I don't need it doesn't need to be emphasized

00:56:38 ◼   ► You can make it disappear with a nice status bar

00:56:40 ◼   ► Hopefully that's up to developers if developers want to do something fancy with the notch

00:56:43 ◼   ► maybe they can in the same way you can mess with the status bar in weird ways to

00:56:46 ◼   ► Varying degrees and old OSes couldn't you change the color of the status bar to anything you wanted back in the old days and they

00:56:52 ◼   ► Kind of clamp down on that

00:56:52 ◼   ► No, you could never you could have it be like white or black, but you could never have it be arbitrary colors

00:56:58 ◼   ► You could have a translucent one and kind of put like a window behind it

00:57:03 ◼   ► Yeah, you know to make it kind of fake to kind of fake it

00:57:06 ◼   ► But I don't know of any apps that really ever did that within success

00:57:10 ◼   ► Yeah, and actually you know either way they go with this

00:57:13 ◼   ► I think the bottom part of the screen is actually more interesting that gets into what Alan Pike was talking about so the top fine

00:57:18 ◼   ► We assume it's a status bar and there's some interesting

00:57:21 ◼   ► Things you can do by you know getting you know going bleeding the pixels up higher on the screen because it's almost edge-to-edge

00:57:28 ◼   ► Especially if you incorporate the notch into the status bar

00:57:30 ◼   ► But the action happens down at the bottom where all of a sudden you've got all the screen where there used to be a hardware home

00:57:35 ◼   ► Button and of course you can draw a software home button there

00:57:37 ◼   ► but you've got all this other space where you can draw things too.

00:57:39 ◼   ► What might you use that for?

00:57:41 ◼   ► And one of Alan Pike's suggestion is take your UI nav bar,

00:57:44 ◼   ► whatever that class is called,

00:57:45 ◼   ► and take the current awkward arrangement with lots of white space and take those

00:57:51 ◼   ► navigation controls like done or edit or whatever,

00:57:53 ◼   ► those little words that are up in the corner that are hard to reach in your big

00:57:55 ◼   ► phone and shove them down next to the home button because now that's all a

00:58:00 ◼   ► screen and it's actually easier to reach.

00:58:02 ◼   ► There's been a lot of articles recently about how it's easier to reach the bottom

00:58:05 ◼   ► of your really big phone with your thumb and the top of the really big phone.

00:58:07 ◼   ► so bottom navigation becomes more preferable than it was back in the days of the original

00:58:12 ◼   ► iPhone size or even the 5 size.

00:58:16 ◼   ► And it makes a lot of sense, like whether they do that or not, you look at that and

00:58:19 ◼   ► you go, "Oh, okay, well, that would work and it would make sense based on the design we

00:58:24 ◼   ► currently see in iOS 11 betas."

00:58:28 ◼   ► But maybe they won't do that.

00:58:29 ◼   ► Maybe what can you do with the bottom?

00:58:31 ◼   ► You've got a lot of pixels down there.

00:58:33 ◼   ► is surely going to reserve some of them for OS-related functions in the sort of default

00:58:38 ◼   ► case where you don't want to go full-bleed video or whatever.

00:58:43 ◼   ► You could do interesting stuff down there instead of just showing a circle where you

00:58:46 ◼   ► put your thumb, presumably to use the Touch ID sensor that may or may not be buried under

00:58:51 ◼   ► the screen.

00:58:52 ◼   ► Yeah, it's funny because I feel like we have learned a lot in this leak, but I think you

00:59:01 ◼   ► guys are right that I don't know that we've learned all that much but we've more gotten

00:59:07 ◼   ► some soft confirmation of a lot of the things that were already suspected and though I still

00:59:12 ◼   ► think this is the second biggest leak that I've ever witnessed as compared to the what was it the

00:59:18 ◼   ► iPhone 4 that was found in the bar. So I think that still takes the cake for the biggest leak but

00:59:25 ◼   ► Man, this is a close second and it's fascinating.

00:59:29 ◼   ► Like I feel kind of bad for the Apple developers,

00:59:33 ◼   ► like the developers within Apple

00:59:34 ◼   ► that have been working on this stuff

00:59:35 ◼   ► and have been really sweating this

00:59:38 ◼   ► and were hoping for the big splash surprise.

00:59:40 ◼   ► Like that article was, I think it was that article

00:59:42 ◼   ► that floated around like a month ago that talked about this.

00:59:45 ◼   ► But anyway, or maybe it was on the talk show live.

00:59:48 ◼   ► Maybe that's what it was, it doesn't matter.

00:59:49 ◼   ► Somewhere they were saying, you know, really,

00:59:50 ◼   ► it's a bummer for the employees

00:59:51 ◼   ► when something leaks, the other employees.

00:59:53 ◼   ► And that kind of stinks, but I do think it is fascinating and super cool how, you know,

00:59:59 ◼   ► a couple of developers in particular have been able to kind of figure out all of this

01:00:04 ◼   ► stuff just by going spelunking into the firmware.

01:00:08 ◼   ► And I should have expected something like this from a man with the surname of Rambo.

01:00:11 ◼   ► I mean, this is how the Rambo's work, right?

01:00:15 ◼   ► That's what we learned from the movies.

01:00:16 ◼   ► I didn't catch this before on our discussion of firmware, but like it's interesting to

01:00:20 ◼   ► me that with HomePod we reverted to the old nomenclature because back on the original iPhone

01:00:25 ◼   ► the iPhone came with firmware because it's a phone, phones don't run OS's silly, it's firmware

01:00:30 ◼   ► right? And obviously that's before you know it was called iPhone OS after that I believe and then it

01:00:36 ◼   ► switched to iOS right? But now then the HomePod because it's so wussy and doesn't have a screen

01:00:41 ◼   ► even though they've extracted a screen resolution as far as iOS is concerned a very small screen

01:00:46 ◼   ► resolution and potentially a number of addressable LEDs blah blah blah. Anyway,

01:00:51 ◼   ► now it's back to firmware. It's like, it's called, you know, the reason they got this in the URL is

01:00:57 ◼   ► they changed tvOS to audio OS. So if you want to give it a name tvOS runs on Apple TV, iOS runs on,

01:01:03 ◼   ► you know, iPhones and iPods and iPads, and audio OS runs on the HomePod. But we don't call it audio

01:01:11 ◼   ► OS, it's still, it's stuck in firmware. I guess you still got to start in firmware and work your

01:01:15 ◼   ► way up do we start referring you to your actual os update uh yeah that's a little bit weird i guess

01:01:22 ◼   ► they want to make it seem like an embedded thing it's also in case you were wondering about um

01:01:26 ◼   ► the amazon echo show and the potential uh we've discussed many times of apple's home

01:01:34 ◼   ► thing that sits in your home having a screen on it naming the thing audio os obviously does nothing

01:01:40 ◼   ► because you can rename it whenever you want they rename their rest all the time but it's a pretty

01:01:44 ◼   ► strong stake in the ground for this product, this product we already knew, but like in

01:01:47 ◼   ► case you're wondering do they expect the operating system to do a lot of displaying of pictures?

01:01:52 ◼   ► No it's called audio OS.

01:01:55 ◼   ► Like whether or not it has a screen that can show weird symbols or an addressable grid

01:01:59 ◼   ► of LEDs under a diffuser or whatever, the OS is all about audio.

01:02:04 ◼   ► Any other thoughts about all this?

01:02:06 ◼   ► Not really.

01:02:07 ◼   ► Sure there's stuff that I forgot to put in the notes but there was so much stuff that

01:02:11 ◼   ► was leaked and so many people digging into this that I just couldn't even keep up with

01:02:15 ◼   ► it.

01:02:16 ◼   ► Yeah, I feel like this should be like a four-hour conversation for us, but I really feel like

01:02:19 ◼   ► we've kind of touched on all of it.

01:02:22 ◼   ► So well, and also like, I mean, as Markham said before, everything that's in this leak

01:02:27 ◼   ► had been discussed before with the exception of a few additional symbols that lean towards

01:02:31 ◼   ► features that hadn't been, you know, that could have been imagined, but that hadn't

01:02:34 ◼   ► been thought about, you know, like the camera understanding what it's taking a picture of

01:02:36 ◼   ► and adjusting things, but you can extrapolate that from the sensors.

01:02:39 ◼   ► And it just shows how imagination plus the usual hardware supply chain leaks can get

01:02:46 ◼   ► us most of the way there anyway.

01:02:48 ◼   ► OLED we've known forever.

01:02:50 ◼   ► Screen edge to edge we've also known forever.

01:02:53 ◼   ► Face detection was a big leak.

01:02:56 ◼   ► And then IR sensors and stuff like that and how it's going to support it.

01:02:59 ◼   ► Touch ID in the screen versus the back is still up in the air.

01:03:02 ◼   ► Nothing in this.

01:03:03 ◼   ► It goes one way or the other, I think.

01:03:06 ◼   ► And then the HomePod leak would just nail all that down for us.

01:03:08 ◼   ► We were already talking about all those things.

01:03:10 ◼   ► So it's like, oh, I feel bad for the employees, blah, blah, blah.

01:03:11 ◼   ► Well, if this leak had not happened, we'd all be watching that keynote saying,

01:03:15 ◼   ► I can't wait to see the OLED phone that does face recognition with an edge

01:03:18 ◼   ► to edge screen, potentially with a notch in it.

01:03:20 ◼   ► Like we like we were already there.

01:03:22 ◼   ► It's just, you know, it's just confirming stuff where, you know, it's

01:03:25 ◼   ► it continues to be hard for Apple to be secretive about something

01:03:29 ◼   ► that it's going to build literally millions of like months ahead of time.

01:03:33 ◼   ► Like someone's going to build them.

01:03:34 ◼   ► Human beings are going to build them.

01:03:36 ◼   ► And this information has value to many different parties,

01:03:39 ◼   ► the least of which is a bunch of Apple nerds.

01:03:41 ◼   ► Like it has values like people who are designing cases

01:03:44 ◼   ► or making clones or competitive.

01:03:46 ◼   ► Like it's really hard to keep this kind of secret.

01:03:51 ◼   ► And Apple continues to prove that.

01:03:54 ◼   ► That no matter how much money you have,

01:03:55 ◼   ► no matter how careful you are,

01:03:57 ◼   ► we're gonna find out about your phone.

01:04:01 ◼   ► Mac Pro is gonna be pretty secret though, let me tell you.

01:04:03 ◼   ► Yeah.

01:04:04 ◼   ► (both laughing)

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01:05:30 ◼   ► What do you have, Jon, about this nickname that Gruber reported?

01:05:34 ◼   ► The Ferrari nickname?

01:05:35 ◼   ► Yeah, iPhone D22's nickname may have been "Ferrari."

01:05:39 ◼   ► Oh yeah, that makes perfect sense, because we've all been talking about this phone in

01:05:44 ◼   ► that kind of way as, they're gonna make phones like the 7 and the 7 Plus, and they're gonna

01:05:49 ◼   ► be fine phones, and those are the normal ones, but then there's the fancy one.

01:05:53 ◼   ► The fancy one is, you know, edge-to-edge screen and made of exotic materials and gonna be

01:05:57 ◼   ► more expensive, and you know, Ferrari's the perfect name for it.

01:05:59 ◼   ► It's not the phone that everybody's going to have.

01:06:02 ◼   ► A lot of the stories and a lot of groupers writing about it has been about how A) this

01:06:06 ◼   ► will be fun to be more expensive because why make it the same price as the other ones?

01:06:10 ◼   ► You're going to segment the market like good, better, best, or whatever.

01:06:14 ◼   ► And B) how they probably can't make as many of these.

01:06:17 ◼   ► Like if this was the only iPhone that potentially they wouldn't be able to make as many of

01:06:21 ◼   ► them because one or more parts in it are not able to be manufactured in volume.

01:06:27 ◼   ► meta point about the Ferrari phone is like if Apple can only ever put technology in its

01:06:32 ◼   ► phones that it can make 60 million of like for launch day or whatever it's going to be

01:06:37 ◼   ► at a disadvantage against competitors that only have to make like 2 million phones. If

01:06:40 ◼   ► you can make 2 million phones you're like I just need 2 million of this special awesome

01:06:43 ◼   ► screen and Apple's like oh that screen is awesome we would love to put that screen in

01:06:47 ◼   ► our phone and they're like sorry we can only make 2 million of those and Apple's like well

01:06:49 ◼   ► we need 60 million. Well we can't make them any of that screen so you can't put that screen

01:06:53 ◼   ► phone. So this gives them, in addition to segmenting the market, like, "Oh, you want

01:06:57 ◼   ► to pay even more for an iPhone? Apple is happy to accommodate you. Yay! What can we put in

01:07:01 ◼   ► this phone that's worth the extra money?" Well, we can make it look cooler, we can have

01:07:05 ◼   ► fancy features like the face detection and the edge-to-edge screen, and we can put components

01:07:09 ◼   ► in it that we can only make 12 million of, or 15 million of, instead of 60 million. I'm

01:07:14 ◼   ► making these numbers up, but like, whatever. And the Ferrari name fits with that. Ferraris.

01:07:20 ◼   ► that cost more than other cars, they make fewer of them, and they're really fancy.

01:07:24 ◼   ► And Eddy Cue is on the board of Ferrari, so everything fits.

01:07:28 ◼   ► It all works.

01:07:29 ◼   ► Ay yi yi.

01:07:30 ◼   ► All right, so, no more thoughts on this leak.

01:07:33 ◼   ► I feel bad for the responsible party, though.

01:07:35 ◼   ► My goodness.

01:07:36 ◼   ► I can't tell if my water smells like DEET or if my hands smell like DEET that are handling

01:07:41 ◼   ► the water.

01:07:42 ◼   ► Stop eating bug spray, Marco.

01:07:44 ◼   ► It's going to affect the show eventually.

01:07:46 ◼   ► I can tell when Marco's drinking and I can tell when he's eating bug spray.

01:07:50 ◼   ► Yep, he is high as a kite.

01:07:52 ◼   ► I've been in the sun a lot today.

01:07:55 ◼   ► Fly away Marco.

01:07:57 ◼   ► Hey, there's no more iPods except the iPod Touch.

01:08:00 ◼   ► That could be only one.

01:08:02 ◼   ► Yeah, that's Highlander, John.

01:08:03 ◼   ► It's a Highlander reference.

01:08:04 ◼   ► Good job.

01:08:05 ◼   ► Yeah, it went over my head at least, don't worry.

01:08:07 ◼   ► I'm still okay.

01:08:08 ◼   ► I didn't get a reference.

01:08:09 ◼   ► Marco can't get there can be only one.

01:08:11 ◼   ► This is a new low, folks.

01:08:14 ◼   ► What is the most well-known reference that Marko will not get?

01:08:17 ◼   ► Highlander is now, the only one that's now in the lead.

01:08:21 ◼   ► If you're talking about most popular things that I haven't seen, you've got to go probably

01:08:27 ◼   ► Lord of the Rings or Harry Potter or maybe Star Trek.

01:08:30 ◼   ► But this is different.

01:08:32 ◼   ► I don't expect you to have seen Highlander.

01:08:34 ◼   ► We're not crazy here.

01:08:35 ◼   ► But you know that that is a reference to Highlander.

01:08:39 ◼   ► Like I said, a very popular internet meme reused many, many times.

01:08:42 ◼   ► You don't have to have ever seen the movie to know that that, anyway.

01:08:46 ◼   ► I think that's the top of leaderboard now, because I would say that is pretty well known.

01:08:52 ◼   ► Anyway, no more iPods.

01:08:56 ◼   ► Sometimes I forget they still make them.

01:08:57 ◼   ► Or they still made them.

01:08:58 ◼   ► Well, and I feel like that's the best time for Apple to discontinue a product quietly

01:09:03 ◼   ► like this is when half people who hear the news say, "Oh, they still made those?"

01:09:07 ◼   ► Yep.

01:09:08 ◼   ► probably is a good indicator that they killed it

01:09:11 ◼   ► in an appropriate time.

01:09:12 ◼   ► It was not too soon.

01:09:14 ◼   ► It might have been too late, but it was not too soon.

01:09:16 ◼   ► And yeah, I mean, this is, if anything,

01:09:19 ◼   ► I think this is, I mean, first of all, yeah,

01:09:21 ◼   ► probably long overdue, but second of all,

01:09:24 ◼   ► this might help usher in the post-iTunes era,

01:09:28 ◼   ► because one of the biggest reasons that iTunes

01:09:31 ◼   ► has to keep existing is because it's the only way

01:09:33 ◼   ► to sync music onto iPods.

01:09:35 ◼   ► So maybe this'll help that, I don't know.

01:09:37 ◼   ► I mean, I know this is up there with like the Mac App Store

01:09:41 ◼   ► rewrite as incredibly unlikely predictions

01:09:44 ◼   ► I've made recently, but I don't know.

01:09:48 ◼   ► If they're going to do it, they have to lay the groundwork

01:09:50 ◼   ► to finally like fix/replace iTunes,

01:09:53 ◼   ► and one of the biggest ways to do that is,

01:09:56 ◼   ► first of all, get rid of the need for it

01:09:57 ◼   ► to ever run on Windows, and then second of all,

01:09:59 ◼   ► get rid of the need for it to sync iPods,

01:10:01 ◼   ► and like if you can do those things, which are related,

01:10:04 ◼   ► you can clear out a lot of the need for it

01:10:06 ◼   ► to hold on to all this old cruft.

01:10:10 ◼   ► There was a leak related to that actually.

01:10:11 ◼   ► I think it was actually a Mac OS leak.

01:10:13 ◼   ► Some sort of thing in Mac OS that was like, oh, you know, like quick looking on a video

01:10:18 ◼   ► or something was like, open this in movies or something like that instead of open in

01:10:23 ◼   ► iTunes, right?

01:10:24 ◼   ► It was like a string for a dialog box thing that opened it in one of Apple's incredibly

01:10:28 ◼   ► boringly named applications.

01:10:30 ◼   ► Like there's no more iTunes, now we have an application called movies and an application

01:10:34 ◼   ► called podcasts and an application called music.

01:10:36 ◼   ► And that is totally what Apple would do

01:10:37 ◼   ► because they're super boring names.

01:10:39 ◼   ► Anyway, that's coming.

01:10:41 ◼   ► We all know something like that is coming

01:10:43 ◼   ► and you're right, getting rid of the iPods does help it.

01:10:45 ◼   ► - What if they don't use those boring names?

01:10:47 ◼   ► What if they pull a planet of the apps

01:10:50 ◼   ► and they call every single one of the new apps Apple Music?

01:10:54 ◼   ► - Yeah, that would make just as much sense

01:10:56 ◼   ► as TV shows on Apple Music.

01:10:58 ◼   ► Well, they did call it Audio OS too.

01:11:00 ◼   ► They always have to have, every time they solve,

01:11:02 ◼   ► quote unquote, solve a naming problem

01:11:03 ◼   ► by aligning the stupid capitalization of all their OSs

01:11:06 ◼   ► to be worse, uniformly worse,

01:11:08 ◼   ► then they make a new crisis of naming,

01:11:10 ◼   ► which is like, you know, audio OS

01:11:11 ◼   ► and Apple music with TV shows on it,

01:11:13 ◼   ► but they'll sort it out, yeah.

01:11:15 ◼   ► So I don't know what the timeline is on those things.

01:11:17 ◼   ► Seems like a lot to bite off, but I'm, you know,

01:11:21 ◼   ► even though it is totally fine to get rid of the iPods

01:11:24 ◼   ► like their time has come,

01:11:25 ◼   ► there are still people who miss things about them.

01:11:27 ◼   ► And I, you know, not that I miss the products specifically,

01:11:31 ◼   ► But I miss Apple being in that market.

01:11:34 ◼   ► So what kind of market are we talking about?

01:11:36 ◼   ► Well, a lot of people have been writing

01:11:37 ◼   ► about missing the Shuffle

01:11:38 ◼   ► because it's just so darn small

01:11:39 ◼   ► and some people don't want to strap a phone to them

01:11:41 ◼   ► and they're like, "Oh, I just got an Apple Watch."

01:11:43 ◼   ► The Watch is the new Shuffle, right?

01:11:45 ◼   ► You don't, you know, you just wear your watch

01:11:46 ◼   ► and it does so much more than the Shuffle does.

01:11:49 ◼   ► The Shuffle is kind of like

01:11:50 ◼   ► being in some of the same markets as Fitbit

01:11:54 ◼   ► and make an incredibly cheap thing

01:11:56 ◼   ► that you don't mind too much

01:11:57 ◼   ► when you put it through the washing machine.

01:11:58 ◼   ► It does one simple thing well.

01:12:00 ◼   ► Now that hasn't been the shuffle a long time.

01:12:02 ◼   ► It's done one simple thing, not really well,

01:12:04 ◼   ► because getting music on it was super pain,

01:12:06 ◼   ► but imagine something that was similar form factor

01:12:09 ◼   ► and price to the iPod shuffle,

01:12:12 ◼   ► but that you never needed to connect to iTunes.

01:12:14 ◼   ► Like they did everything wirelessly,

01:12:16 ◼   ► and it synced with all your music,

01:12:17 ◼   ► and you know, like people would buy that for 50 bucks.

01:12:20 ◼   ► Apple doesn't wanna be in the market

01:12:22 ◼   ► to sell you that little turd for 50 bucks.

01:12:23 ◼   ► Like they stayed in it a much longer

01:12:25 ◼   ► than anyone thought they would.

01:12:27 ◼   ► Who knows how cheaply they can manufacture those things now,

01:12:30 ◼   ► But it's kind of a shame that Apple doesn't want to go that far down.

01:12:33 ◼   ► They just want to sell you glass rectangles of varying sizes.

01:12:36 ◼   ► The smallest one they're going to make so far is going to be on your watch and it's

01:12:39 ◼   ► probably great for everybody.

01:12:41 ◼   ► But the Apple Watch is not the same market as a $50 piece of crap electronic thing that

01:12:45 ◼   ► you just clip onto your clothes that is incredibly lightweight and that has access to all of

01:12:49 ◼   ► your music effortlessly.

01:12:52 ◼   ► So I hope to see the return of the shuffle.

01:12:56 ◼   ► If the Apple Watch continues to be successful five years from now or whatever, either the

01:13:00 ◼   ► watch gets super cheap and travels down to that segment or some other thing, some other

01:13:07 ◼   ► sort of you can find it in a box of cereal, incredibly cheap, don't really worry about

01:13:12 ◼   ► it too much, but also incredibly light and also empowered by Apple's sort of ecosystem,

01:13:17 ◼   ► like all the stuff they have, all your podcasts or music and all the cloud stuff.

01:13:22 ◼   ► I mean, they're talking about adding cellular to the Apple Watch, which we talked about

01:13:26 ◼   ► many years ago as an inevitability.

01:13:29 ◼   ► A tiny iPod shuffle that has access to your entire library of music and podcasts, it also

01:13:34 ◼   ► has cell access that costs $50.

01:13:37 ◼   ► I would love that product in 10, 15 years.

01:13:39 ◼   ► So I hope not that the iPod comes back, but that that form factor comes back and that

01:13:44 ◼   ► Apple doesn't continue to travel upmarket without remembering it can also extend downmarket

01:13:50 ◼   ► as well.

01:13:51 ◼   ► I think ultimately the biggest problem and probably the reason why this was killed and why this doesn't exist

01:13:58 ◼   ► You know Hopps is crying outside my door. Let me let him in. So I had a tough love. I fibrarized my dog

01:14:03 ◼   ► He's whining out there. She's whining out there and you know, just just wait it out eventually. She'll

01:14:07 ◼   ► All right, we put him in airplane mode, what does that even mean?

01:14:19 ◼   ► I want to make fun of you so badly for that, but that is genius.

01:14:23 ◼   ► Alright, so I think one of the reasons why they killed the iPods now, and why I think,

01:14:30 ◼   ► Jon, your hope for a Shuffle is totally futile, is that I think-

01:14:34 ◼   ► It's been like 15 years, come on, cut me a break here, I feel like I'm having to come

01:14:37 ◼   ► back tomorrow.

01:14:38 ◼   ► First of all, I have owned Shuffles, my first, I think my first two iPods were Shuffles,

01:14:44 ◼   ► And I was not as big of a fan as you are of them.

01:14:50 ◼   ► But I think the big problem now and one of the reasons why they could probably do this

01:14:55 ◼   ► now and kill all the iPhones now is I think it's easy for people like us, basically old

01:15:01 ◼   ► computer nerds, to overestimate how many people actually still maintain their own music collections.

01:15:08 ◼   ► days streaming is so popular, it is the default of what everyone does. So many people either

01:15:15 ◼   ► never built up a music collection or have abandoned it years ago for streaming services.

01:15:22 ◼   ► I think the whole idea of a music player that you sync a collection of DRM free, locally

01:15:29 ◼   ► stored files that you sync those onto this music player and bring it with you somewhere,

01:15:35 ◼   ► I think that whole idea has had its day and it's done.

01:15:39 ◼   ► And I don't think it's coming back.

01:15:41 ◼   ► That's not related to the form factor.

01:15:42 ◼   ► I said it would have to have cell access and have access to the cloud stuff.

01:15:45 ◼   ► That includes Apple Music.

01:15:46 ◼   ► That includes Spotify.

01:15:47 ◼   ► Right?

01:15:48 ◼   ► Well, then that's a cellular Apple Watch, basically.

01:15:51 ◼   ► And they might be allegedly making that.

01:15:52 ◼   ► Right, but it's not a watch.

01:15:53 ◼   ► It's not a watch and it's not going to be $300, like a $50 thing.

01:15:57 ◼   ► Then it's a phone.

01:15:58 ◼   ► That you can connect to all your cloud stuff too, and your podcasts, which aren't the same

01:16:01 ◼   ► as, you know, you could stream your podcast.

01:16:03 ◼   ► That's fine, but you still have to know what podcast you subscribe to anyway all the existing cloud stuff the existing cloud stuff is

01:16:08 ◼   ► Apple music

01:16:10 ◼   ► You know iTunes match your iCloud music library your podcast Spotify everything like that all those ecosystems

01:16:17 ◼   ► Even if it just did like okay like the watch does now like well the watch can't get there by itself

01:16:23 ◼   ► But it can go on Wi-Fi and it can talk to your phone or whatever

01:16:26 ◼   ► They the whole point is they don't want to sell something

01:16:30 ◼   ► think it's 50 bucks that you can listen to music and podcasts on regardless of how you

01:16:34 ◼   ► do it because they just, you know, you can't technologically do what I'm describing right

01:16:37 ◼   ► now because it would cost more than 50 bucks and the $50 thing they have now sucks because

01:16:41 ◼   ► it's so hard to get the music onto it and it's so hard to use, right?

01:16:45 ◼   ► So I'm just hoping they come back to that.

01:16:46 ◼   ► When technology catches up, I hope they don't say, "Well, you got to buy a watch," and the

01:16:50 ◼   ► watch always starts at $199.

01:16:51 ◼   ► Like it never goes below that because you know Apple and prices that just keep going

01:16:54 ◼   ► up market.

01:16:55 ◼   ► I hope they extend back down because it's kind of like the iPod accidentally ended up

01:16:59 ◼   ► 50 bucks or whatever the shuffles were, because the first shuffle was what, 99 or something

01:17:04 ◼   ► like that?

01:17:05 ◼   ► And it's just 120 if you want to do more capacity, I think.

01:17:08 ◼   ► Yeah, like in a rare case of it becoming cheaper to make this type of thing, it just so happened

01:17:13 ◼   ► that the price dropped down and people didn't care about it.

01:17:15 ◼   ► You know, it's one of those cases where even Apple couldn't fight against the fact that

01:17:21 ◼   ► this thing was incredibly cheap to make.

01:17:22 ◼   ► I wonder how much the shuffle that they were selling for, whatever they were selling for,

01:17:25 ◼   ► actually cost them to manufacture.

01:17:26 ◼   ► The margins were probably big, but they probably sold none of them, so who cares?

01:17:30 ◼   ► But that's what's happening with all electronics.

01:17:32 ◼   ► That's why the watch is going to get cellular, because eventually you can do that that fits

01:17:36 ◼   ► in that form factor and in that price.

01:17:39 ◼   ► That will eventually happen for something like a shuffle.

01:17:43 ◼   ► And so I hope when that does happen that Apple revisits that, especially as they expand out

01:17:49 ◼   ► their ecosystem.

01:17:50 ◼   ► Like they're doing it with the phone, diversifying the phone, they make a big one with a small

01:17:52 ◼   ► one, now they're going to make a big one with a small one and a medium expensive one.

01:17:55 ◼   ► There's always room, like they always said they're not going to leave a price umbrella.

01:17:59 ◼   ► It's just that Apple loves to go upwards, like, "Oh, we can make it even more expensive

01:18:03 ◼   ► phone.

01:18:04 ◼   ► Let's make it bigger and add 100 bucks.

01:18:05 ◼   ► Let's make it all glass and add another 100 bucks."

01:18:06 ◼   ► Like that's the total of the Apple way to do it and that's great and they should do

01:18:09 ◼   ► that.

01:18:10 ◼   ► They should also make a really expensive Mac Pro that we'll all potentially buy.

01:18:13 ◼   ► But the other direction, like don't just accidentally land there.

01:18:16 ◼   ► Revisit it in many years when you can make the shuffle that I was describing because

01:18:22 ◼   ► I think they can sell a lot of those things enough to make it worth their while and people

01:18:30 ◼   ► do like them.

01:18:31 ◼   ► They don't like the old shuffle because now it's outdated but if they made a new one that

01:18:34 ◼   ► did all that stuff, a lot of people would buy them.

01:18:36 ◼   ► And I say this mostly because I see people with Fitbits which Fitbits would do almost

01:18:39 ◼   ► nothing and are junkie and people put through the wash all the time but I see a ton of them.

01:18:44 ◼   ► So I think there is a market for so cheap you don't worry about it too much wearables

01:18:50 ◼   ► that do something useful.

01:18:52 ◼   ► - Yeah, there is in general, but I think there's a lot more

01:18:55 ◼   ► of that in the fitness community than there is

01:18:57 ◼   ► in the audio playback market.

01:18:59 ◼   ► Like, you know, I think when you're looking at

01:19:02 ◼   ► just having a small audio player,

01:19:04 ◼   ► the shuffle did make sense for a while

01:19:08 ◼   ► as a thing that exists in the lineup.

01:19:09 ◼   ► Again, I will stand by the fact that it was never good,

01:19:11 ◼   ► but it made sense to exist and sell,

01:19:15 ◼   ► and it was fine for certain uses.

01:19:17 ◼   ► But now, you're starting from a place

01:19:21 ◼   ► where by default you assume everyone has a phone.

01:19:25 ◼   ► And then, so what you're saying is basically,

01:19:28 ◼   ► or like the case that a shuffle would have to make

01:19:31 ◼   ► is not I need something that can play music on the go,

01:19:35 ◼   ► 'cause your phone is that thing and you already have that.

01:19:37 ◼   ► So that's effectively free for you.

01:19:38 ◼   ► Like there's no additional cost for you

01:19:40 ◼   ► to have music on the go,

01:19:40 ◼   ► you already have that with your phone.

01:19:42 ◼   ► And so now it's, well, if you want to buy something else,

01:19:47 ◼   ► something smaller that you can clip onto your body,

01:19:50 ◼   ► maybe because of certain types of workouts that you do,

01:19:53 ◼   ► like running where you don't want to strap a phone to you,

01:19:56 ◼   ► or something like that.

01:19:58 ◼   ► Well then their answer is the watch.

01:20:00 ◼   ► Then their answer is, well, if you're doing these things,

01:20:02 ◼   ► we already have something small

01:20:04 ◼   ► that completely you can clip to your body.

01:20:06 ◼   ► It's better than anything,

01:20:07 ◼   ► it's better than any shuffle ever made,

01:20:09 ◼   ► because you don't have to clip it

01:20:12 ◼   ► to some part of your clothing,

01:20:13 ◼   ► you just strap it on your wrist

01:20:15 ◼   ► in a location that people are totally fine

01:20:17 ◼   ► wearing things most of the time,

01:20:18 ◼   ► and there's no wires, you can't plug a wire into it

01:20:21 ◼   ► even if you wanted to, so you don't have a headphone wire

01:20:23 ◼   ► that you have to route somewhere along your arm

01:20:25 ◼   ► or strap it down or through your shirt or anything like that

01:20:27 ◼   ► you could just use Bluetooth.

01:20:29 ◼   ► - Oh, you would have to work with the AirPods.

01:20:31 ◼   ► - Right, exactly, and so--

01:20:32 ◼   ► - But the Shuffle would do that too.

01:20:34 ◼   ► - Yes, but if you're saying like Apple should sell

01:20:36 ◼   ► a small, inexpensive, wearable device

01:20:38 ◼   ► that you can sync music to in a modern way

01:20:40 ◼   ► that can run modern apps and modern streaming services

01:20:43 ◼   ► and can stream things to Bluetooth

01:20:44 ◼   ► that's smaller than a phone, they do,

01:20:46 ◼   ► it's called the Apple Watch,

01:20:47 ◼   ► and I don't think it's ever going to get down to 50 bucks.

01:20:50 ◼   ► - I already said that.

01:20:50 ◼   ► I said like they could,

01:20:52 ◼   ► if the way they can get to that market

01:20:53 ◼   ► is by making a $50 Apple watch, that's fine.

01:20:55 ◼   ► But if they never want the Apple watch

01:20:57 ◼   ► to go down to 50 bucks,

01:20:58 ◼   ► what I'm saying is there's still a place

01:20:59 ◼   ► for them to put something like that.

01:21:00 ◼   ► If they don't, they'll put it this way,

01:21:01 ◼   ► if they don't do it and a Fitbit is still in business,

01:21:03 ◼   ► Fitbit will make this.

01:21:04 ◼   ► Because Fitbit already sells you something

01:21:06 ◼   ► that is small, lightweight, cheap,

01:21:08 ◼   ► that does less than an Apple watch.

01:21:10 ◼   ► And eventually if they can sell something at that price

01:21:13 ◼   ► and Apple doesn't, then Fitbit will.

01:21:16 ◼   ► In the same way that Fitbit will sell a thing that counts your steps, that's much cheaper

01:21:19 ◼   ► than an Apple Watch.

01:21:20 ◼   ► And Apple thus far can't make an Apple Watch that's cheap because it's too complicated,

01:21:24 ◼   ► right?

01:21:25 ◼   ► So they could, you know, I'm just saying like don't leave this market out.

01:21:27 ◼   ► And I'm saying not to do it with the watch because thus far Apple has made the watch

01:21:31 ◼   ► to be not upscale like the edition days are behind us, but they're still making the ceramic

01:21:37 ◼   ► ones and they're all about fashion and fanciness.

01:21:41 ◼   ► It seems to me that there is less of an appetite to bring the Apple Watch down to 50 bucks

01:21:45 ◼   ► even if they can technically.

01:21:46 ◼   ► So that leaves room for, if they don't wanna do that,

01:21:49 ◼   ► and if they don't want Fitbit to sell that thing,

01:21:51 ◼   ► leaves room to bring back something like the Shuffle

01:21:54 ◼   ► in the future that is essentially an Apple watch

01:21:57 ◼   ► without a strap and maybe without a screen on it

01:21:59 ◼   ► even if you wanna make it super cheap.

01:22:01 ◼   ► I think we can all agree though that no one is crying

01:22:05 ◼   ► for the iPod Nano because that is a product without a home.

01:22:09 ◼   ► - Yeah, and that was so good for so long,

01:22:12 ◼   ► but that time has long passed.

01:22:16 ◼   ► - Yeah, my first Apple products, if memory serves,

01:22:19 ◼   ► were the original iPod Shuffle that looked like

01:22:21 ◼   ► a stick of gum, or a pack of gum, I guess I should say,

01:22:24 ◼   ► and then following that, an iPod Nano,

01:22:27 ◼   ► the one that was really easy to scratch the back of,

01:22:29 ◼   ► and I think there was like a class action lawsuit

01:22:30 ◼   ► or something like that. - Scratch the front,

01:22:31 ◼   ► not the back, the front.

01:22:33 ◼   ► - What's the front?

01:22:33 ◼   ► Okay, right. - Yeah.

01:22:34 ◼   ► - But either way, those were my first two Apple products.

01:22:37 ◼   ► So I think I have a similar reaction to everyone,

01:22:40 ◼   ► or a lot of people, which is, well, that kind of sucks,

01:22:44 ◼   ► but no, actually it doesn't,

01:22:46 ◼   ► because who's really buying these anymore anyway?

01:22:49 ◼   ► So yeah.

01:22:50 ◼   ► And they also, did we already mention

01:22:52 ◼   ► that they capacity bumped the iPod touch as well,

01:22:54 ◼   ► which is nice? - Yeah, but nobody cares.

01:22:56 ◼   ► - Not fair.

01:22:57 ◼   ► - John, you would have cared. - The iPod touch seems--

01:22:58 ◼   ► - I know. - Yeah, well, no.

01:23:00 ◼   ► They, you know, it is even worse than iPhone SE users now.

01:23:03 ◼   ► The iPod touch has been so left behind.

01:23:05 ◼   ► That's why I had to leave it.

01:23:06 ◼   ► Like, it was just, well, you know,

01:23:07 ◼   ► getting a phone 'cause I was gonna get a phone,

01:23:09 ◼   ► but like, they, you know, updated it forever.

01:23:10 ◼   ► And yeah, they bumped the capacities

01:23:12 ◼   ► but left the prices the same, but it's still overpriced.

01:23:15 ◼   ► Like the problem, like it's not super expensive,

01:23:19 ◼   ► but for what's in it,

01:23:20 ◼   ► like I find it hard to recommend that product.

01:23:23 ◼   ► I suppose if you wanna get something for your kid

01:23:25 ◼   ► and it's still cheaper than an iPad, right?

01:23:28 ◼   ► But I find it really hard to recommend that product

01:23:31 ◼   ► at the current price and capabilities.

01:23:34 ◼   ► If they want, if they don't wanna can the iPod touch,

01:23:38 ◼   ► which apparently they don't wanna do

01:23:38 ◼   ► 'cause they could have just canned it now,

01:23:40 ◼   ► they need to get it on a slightly better upgrade cycle.

01:23:45 ◼   ► I mean, I guess they're not motivated to do that

01:23:48 ◼   ► because it's like the Mac mini of the iOS line.

01:23:52 ◼   ► It's like, well, it's a product that exists in our lineup

01:23:54 ◼   ► and people do buy it and it fills a role,

01:23:57 ◼   ► but we're not killing ourselves to make a new one.

01:23:59 ◼   ► So it's got what, it's got the A8 in it now?

01:24:01 ◼   ► Like when the A12 is out, can we update the iPod Touch again?

01:24:04 ◼   ► Oh, we'll give you another capacity bump.

01:24:06 ◼   ► Like, come on, if you're gonna have it

01:24:08 ◼   ► maybe update it every once in a while, that's all I'm saying.

01:24:11 ◼   ► - It's also interesting how it fits now in the lineup.

01:24:13 ◼   ► So you have the iPod Touch at what, 200 bucks even?

01:24:17 ◼   ► Is that the base?

01:24:18 ◼   ► - Yeah, I think so.

01:24:18 ◼   ► - Then you have at 329, the new cheap iPad.

01:24:22 ◼   ► - Seems like you're getting way more.

01:24:23 ◼   ► - Exactly, you get way more with the iPad.

01:24:26 ◼   ► And then at 400, you have the iPhone SE.

01:24:29 ◼   ► Which if you still want a small device,

01:24:31 ◼   ► that is, you're getting way more for the iPhone SE

01:24:34 ◼   ► than you are with an iPod Touch at 200.

01:24:36 ◼   ► Now granted, I've now doubled the price,

01:24:39 ◼   ► but I feel like any discussion of what the iPod touch

01:24:42 ◼   ► should or shouldn't have or shouldn't be updated

01:24:45 ◼   ► or how it should be priced has to also then consider

01:24:48 ◼   ► how it fits in with these other low-end,

01:24:50 ◼   ► inexpensive iOS devices.

01:24:52 ◼   ► - Yeah, I mean, it is kind of,

01:24:54 ◼   ► people say like, "Oh, all the real iPods you're on,

01:24:55 ◼   ► "the iPod touch was never really an iPod.

01:24:57 ◼   ► "It was an iPod in name only."

01:24:58 ◼   ► But now it's actually filling the role of the iPod,

01:25:02 ◼   ► because why in the world would,

01:25:04 ◼   ► like say you're gonna get a kid,

01:25:05 ◼   ► It's gonna kid so they're not gonna have a phone.

01:25:07 ◼   ► You don't wanna, this kid doesn't have a cell number.

01:25:08 ◼   ► This kid is six years old, right?

01:25:10 ◼   ► You want to get them an iOS device.

01:25:12 ◼   ► You're gonna get that kid the iPad, right?

01:25:14 ◼   ► Unless what the kid actually wants is a music player

01:25:18 ◼   ► because the iPad is not a great music player

01:25:20 ◼   ► to carry around with you at school or whatever.

01:25:22 ◼   ► Like say the kid is 11 or 12

01:25:23 ◼   ► and maybe doesn't wanna have a phone yet, right?

01:25:25 ◼   ► Or the parents don't wanna pay for a cell data plan.

01:25:27 ◼   ► So iPhone, any kind of iPhone is out

01:25:29 ◼   ► because they're not paying for a cell data plan.

01:25:31 ◼   ► It's a waste to buy an iPhone

01:25:32 ◼   ► and pay that extra expense for something

01:25:33 ◼   ► that's not gonna be a phone.

01:25:35 ◼   ► But a kid would still rather have an iPad to watch YouTube on and stuff too, unless

01:25:39 ◼   ► they want to carry it around at school and listen to music or whatever.

01:25:42 ◼   ► They want to run with it or take it with them to camp or whatever.

01:25:46 ◼   ► It's a music player.

01:25:47 ◼   ► The only advantage it has is its small size.

01:25:50 ◼   ► Everything else about it is a disadvantage.

01:25:51 ◼   ► Like because the price is too close to the cheap iPad, it's really slow, the storage

01:25:56 ◼   ► capacity.

01:25:57 ◼   ► So it's kind of weird that the iPod touch is now actually living up to its iPod name

01:26:02 ◼   ► because literal only reason for existence in any sensible thing is to fill the role

01:26:06 ◼   ► of a non-phone thing that you can also get access to all of your, you know, and I suppose

01:26:13 ◼   ► text messages if you have Wi-Fi, but it is more iPod-like than it has ever been before,

01:26:18 ◼   ► which is kind of depressing because it, you know, as I pointed out many times, was once

01:26:21 ◼   ► the fastest iPhone OS device you could buy for a brief moment in time. Those days are

01:26:26 ◼   ► long gone.

01:26:27 ◼   ► That was Jon's favorite brief moment in time.

01:26:29 ◼   ► (laughs)

01:26:30 ◼   ► - That's what I feel like part of the,

01:26:33 ◼   ► probably a big part of the market for the iPod Touch,

01:26:35 ◼   ► in addition to being eaten alive by the low-end iPad,

01:26:38 ◼   ► has probably also been eaten alive

01:26:40 ◼   ► by the increasing numbers of people

01:26:43 ◼   ► who just give old iPhones to kids.

01:26:45 ◼   ► - Oh, that's a good point.

01:26:46 ◼   ► - I now know a bunch of parents of young children

01:26:49 ◼   ► in that age range where they could have an iOS device,

01:26:53 ◼   ► but you don't wanna give them a good one.

01:26:55 ◼   ► And I don't know any of them that have an iPod Touch.

01:26:58 ◼   ► they're all using their parents' old iPhones.

01:27:00 ◼   ► It's like iPhone 4Ss and stuff like that,

01:27:03 ◼   ► of that age range, or maybe an iPhone 5.

01:27:06 ◼   ► They're all using those.

01:27:08 ◼   ► And so, granted, not everybody keeps their old devices.

01:27:11 ◼   ► A lot of people trade them in or sell them

01:27:13 ◼   ► to help fund the new ones,

01:27:14 ◼   ► but I bet a lot of people who have children

01:27:18 ◼   ► of this age range, they just give them

01:27:21 ◼   ► what they already have in a drawer somewhere,

01:27:23 ◼   ► which is a few years old iPhone.

01:27:25 ◼   ► - I mean, maybe it's a little bit cheaper.

01:27:27 ◼   ► I'm trying to think of why didn't we do that with all our kids.

01:27:29 ◼   ► I mean, from the beginning it was because I had my old iPhones.

01:27:32 ◼   ► Yeah I had the old iPod Touches in them, but we actually did buy two brand new iPod Touches.

01:27:37 ◼   ► We ran out of my old supply of iPod Touches, right?

01:27:40 ◼   ► But the kids still wanted something that was better and faster, you know, my old iPod Touches

01:27:43 ◼   ► were too crappy for them, which they really were at that point.

01:27:46 ◼   ► We had the choice.

01:27:47 ◼   ► We could have said, "Well, why don't we take, you know, the old iPhone 4S and give it to

01:27:51 ◼   ► one of the kids, or we could just buy a brand new iPod Touch."

01:27:55 ◼   ► We ended up buying a new iPod touch.

01:27:58 ◼   ► Twice we did that for a variety of reasons.

01:28:01 ◼   ► Because it was cheap, because it's new,

01:28:02 ◼   ► because the battery will be fresh,

01:28:04 ◼   ► all the kind of reasons that you might--

01:28:06 ◼   ► so for us, when we had access to both of them,

01:28:10 ◼   ► we could have gone either way on it.

01:28:11 ◼   ► So I don't think it's always a slam dunk.

01:28:13 ◼   ► But it depends on how often you upgrade your phones.

01:28:16 ◼   ► If you upgrade your phone every year,

01:28:17 ◼   ► you would have a much greater supply of reasonable-ish iPhones

01:28:21 ◼   ► to go through.

01:28:22 ◼   ► Also, some people might want to resell their iPhones.

01:28:24 ◼   ► Like if you do upgrade every year, you can get some good money for reselling your iPhone

01:28:27 ◼   ► and maybe that makes up the cost of the iPod Touch.

01:28:30 ◼   ► Anyway, I'm sure they're not selling too many of these, but they don't break that out for

01:28:33 ◼   ► us.

01:28:34 ◼   ► But they did keep it around, just like the Mac Mini, so we'll keep our eye on it.

01:28:38 ◼   ► iPod Touch Death Watch begins now.

01:28:40 ◼   ► [Laughter]

01:28:41 ◼   ► Oh my goodness.

01:28:43 ◼   ► And speaking of Death Watches, Flash is on the verge of dead.

01:28:48 ◼   ► Like for real for real.

01:28:49 ◼   ► Flash is—this is another one of those things where the correct response is they were still

01:28:53 ◼   ► still making Flash?

01:28:55 ◼   ► - Yeah, I can tell they were still making Flash

01:28:57 ◼   ► because I still come across websites that require Flash

01:29:01 ◼   ► or don't work right or complain that my version of Flash

01:29:03 ◼   ► is up to date.

01:29:04 ◼   ► I'm like, still, really?

01:29:05 ◼   ► What is this website?

01:29:06 ◼   ► Why do you want me to have Flash?

01:29:07 ◼   ► I just want to see some video.

01:29:09 ◼   ► What century are we in?

01:29:10 ◼   ► But the reason this is a story is because Adobe,

01:29:14 ◼   ► the makers of Flash, are saying,

01:29:16 ◼   ► we're not gonna do that anymore.

01:29:18 ◼   ► So finally, you have no choice,

01:29:20 ◼   ► people who continue to make websites with Flash.

01:29:22 ◼   ► Soon you will not be able to get Flash or a Flash plugin that works in modern browsers

01:29:27 ◼   ► because Adobe is not going to spend more time developing it and blah, blah, blah.

01:29:31 ◼   ► So truly only Adobe could really ever kill Flash because if they continued to make it

01:29:35 ◼   ► and sell it as again a product in their lineup, some people buy it and use it and force you

01:29:40 ◼   ► to have it for their websites and those are bad people and so I'm glad Adobe is putting

01:29:44 ◼   ► an end to this.

01:29:45 ◼   ► How do you really feel?

01:29:49 ◼   ► Thanks to our three sponsors this week, Casper, Squarespace, and Audible.

01:29:52 ◼   ► And we will see you next week.

01:29:54 ◼   ► Now the show is over, they didn't even mean to begin

01:30:01 ◼   ► 'Cause it was accidental, oh it was accidental

01:30:06 ◼   ► John didn't do any research, Marco and Casey wouldn't let him

01:30:12 ◼   ► 'Cause it was accidental, oh it was accidental

01:30:17 ◼   ► And you can find the show notes at ATP.fm

01:30:22 ◼   ► And if you're into Twitter, you can follow them at C-A-S-E-Y-L-I-S-S

01:30:32 ◼   ► So that's K-C-L-I-S-M-A-R-C-O-A-R-M-N-T-M-A-R-C-O-R-M-N-T-M-A-R-C-O-R-M-N-T-M-A-R-C-O-R-M-N-T-M-A-R-M-N-T-M-A-R-M-N-T-M-A-R-M-N-T-M-A-R-M-N-T-M-A-R-M-N-T-M-A-R-M-N-T-M-A-R-M-N-T-M-A-R-M-N-T-M-A-R

01:30:32 ◼   ► ♪ And that's Casey Liss, M-A-R-C-O ♪

01:30:35 ◼   ► ♪ A-R-M ♪

01:30:37 ◼   ► ♪ Auntie Marco Arment ♪

01:30:39 ◼   ► ♪ S-I-R-A-C ♪

01:30:42 ◼   ► ♪ U-S-A-C-R-A-Q-S-A ♪

01:30:44 ◼   ► ♪ It's accidental ♪

01:30:46 ◼   ► ♪ It's accidental ♪

01:30:48 ◼   ► ♪ They didn't mean to ♪

01:30:50 ◼   ► ♪ Accidental ♪

01:30:51 ◼   ► ♪ Accidental ♪

01:30:52 ◼   ► ♪ Tech podcast ♪

01:30:54 ◼   ► ♪ So long ♪

01:30:56 ◼   ► - So John, how was your beach vacation?

01:30:59 ◼   ► I really wanna hear more about this.

01:31:01 ◼   ► same as it always is. I always go down to Long Island for, it's usually just a week.

01:31:05 ◼   ► This time it was almost two weeks because reasons. And we took the dog with us this

01:31:12 ◼   ► time. We've gone down there with the dog before, but that was our other dog. And he was much

01:31:17 ◼   ► better behaved than this little monster.

01:31:19 ◼   ► Well, she's still a puppy though.

01:31:21 ◼   ► Yeah, yeah, no. He was a much older dog. But we survived. We had pretty okay weather. Took

01:31:29 ◼   ► a lot of pictures, filled up a lot of memory cards, filled up my wife's iMac.

01:31:37 ◼   ► We came back home, she got that warning that Mac OS will give you that says your disk is

01:31:42 ◼   ► running low on space, which is never a good warning to get, because Mac OS, like so many

01:31:46 ◼   ► Unixes before it, does not behave well when it runs out of disk space.

01:31:50 ◼   ► Things get very bad very quickly.

01:31:52 ◼   ► So I had to come home and, well I tried to delete a bunch of pictures, but then you got

01:31:56 ◼   ► to go into recently deleted and delete them and you know I did as much picture deleting

01:32:00 ◼   ► as I could but the bottom line is pictures don't, pictures only accumulate essentially

01:32:03 ◼   ► you know you just keep taking more of them and you don't delete the old ones and I have

01:32:09 ◼   ► been more worthless in deleting them than I have in the past not just out of focus or

01:32:13 ◼   ► bad ones but just like you know just deleting everything except for the ones I think are

01:32:16 ◼   ► decent.

01:32:17 ◼   ► But then I had to go through her computer and delete a bunch of other stuff too so pull

01:32:22 ◼   ► out just inventory X. I looked for alternatives I know there's a bunch of alternatives that

01:32:26 ◼   ► people like Daisy Disc, Grand Perspective is a Disc inventory X look-alike type program.

01:32:31 ◼   ► Space Gremlin is my favorite. Oh, I didn't know about that one. I gotta check that one

01:32:34 ◼   ► out. It's fairly hideous, but it's pretty functional. I like the tree map view, the

01:32:39 ◼   ► big rectangle. I like Disc inventory X. I'm concerned that it's not being maintained and

01:32:45 ◼   ► it sometimes does some weird stuff that bothers me a little bit, so that's why I just downloaded

01:32:49 ◼   ► Grand Perspective. But anyway, if you've never used one of these programs or Omnidisc Sweeper

01:32:53 ◼   ► or Daisy disk, whichever one you want.

01:32:56 ◼   ► When you're trying to free up disk space,

01:32:57 ◼   ► this is the way to do it.

01:32:58 ◼   ► Get a program that will show you somehow

01:33:00 ◼   ► all the stuff that's on your disk,

01:33:02 ◼   ► and find the big things,

01:33:03 ◼   ► and don't spend a year going through a million tiny files

01:33:05 ◼   ► to figure out what to delete.

01:33:06 ◼   ► Delete like three big ones, right?

01:33:08 ◼   ► And that'll do it.

01:33:09 ◼   ► So deleted a bunch of games from Steam.

01:33:12 ◼   ► I moved my iTunes backups to a different volume.

01:33:16 ◼   ► - Yes, speaking of things you can safely delete

01:33:19 ◼   ► with this new modern age,

01:33:22 ◼   ► iTunes device backups are huge.

01:33:25 ◼   ► Most people have no idea that they're even still

01:33:27 ◼   ► keeping those if they don't use them anymore,

01:33:28 ◼   ► and they take up tons of disk space.

01:33:31 ◼   ► So that's a number one hit is like,

01:33:33 ◼   ► you gotta get rid of those iTunes backups.

01:33:35 ◼   ► Also, if you're a developer, Xcode keeps around

01:33:37 ◼   ► all sorts of support files for old simulators

01:33:40 ◼   ► and old devices that you probably don't use anymore.

01:33:42 ◼   ► The Xcode developer directory is always a great source

01:33:45 ◼   ► of clearing out stuff.

01:33:47 ◼   ► - Yeah, I still keep the iTunes device backups

01:33:49 ◼   ► just because it's still, even with the crappiness of iTunes,

01:33:53 ◼   ► slightly the fastest and most convenient way

01:33:56 ◼   ► to restore a kid's device that got totally hosed.

01:33:58 ◼   ► So I keep them around, I didn't want to delete them all.

01:34:02 ◼   ► I deleted obviously all the old ones

01:34:03 ◼   ► for devices that I don't use anymore,

01:34:04 ◼   ► but I just moved them to a different volume

01:34:06 ◼   ► that isn't backed up, that I don't like.

01:34:08 ◼   ► If I lose them, oh well.

01:34:09 ◼   ► These are all, these devices are all backed up to iCloud.

01:34:11 ◼   ► So I just have local iTunes backups.

01:34:13 ◼   ► It's just convenient because they're encrypted backups,

01:34:16 ◼   ► I have all the passwords,

01:34:16 ◼   ► although I think they added that

01:34:17 ◼   ► the iCloud backups tune out, didn't they?

01:34:20 ◼   ► Anyway, more backups is good,

01:34:21 ◼   ► so I didn't wanna delete them, I just moved them.

01:34:23 ◼   ► What else did I delete?

01:34:25 ◼   ► - Well, the trick now is,

01:34:26 ◼   ► so if you want the passwords and stuff to be saved,

01:34:28 ◼   ► they're still excluded from iCloud backups,

01:34:31 ◼   ► but iCloud Keychain now exists.

01:34:34 ◼   ► So the official-- - Ah, there you go.

01:34:35 ◼   ► - The official word of like how you're supposed to do this

01:34:37 ◼   ► is to use iCloud Keychain also

01:34:40 ◼   ► in addition to iCloud backups,

01:34:41 ◼   ► and then you will have those things work.

01:34:43 ◼   ► - So that saved a lot of space.

01:34:44 ◼   ► I ended up freeing up like 130 gigs or something,

01:34:48 ◼   ► which gave me a little bit more breathing room,

01:34:49 ◼   ► but you look at the Disk Inventory X,

01:34:52 ◼   ► like giant rectangle picture,

01:34:53 ◼   ► and it's just a huge rectangle that is my photo library.

01:34:57 ◼   ► And it was a little skinny row

01:34:58 ◼   ► with a bunch of tiny little things

01:34:59 ◼   ► that is everything else on the system.

01:35:02 ◼   ► And what can you do?

01:35:02 ◼   ► Like I got the biggest, you know,

01:35:04 ◼   ► it's a one terabyte drive in her iMac,

01:35:06 ◼   ► and that's the time we moved, you know,

01:35:08 ◼   ► we moved the photos from an external drive

01:35:09 ◼   ► to an internal one.

01:35:11 ◼   ► It's so much more convenient and fast, obviously,

01:35:13 ◼   ► have everything in one volume. Before I had this even more complicated backup scheme where I had,

01:35:17 ◼   ► you know, her internal drive on her old computer, but then also my external photos drive, and then

01:35:23 ◼   ► you have to do like, it just doubles the amount of backup headaches that you have to do, and

01:35:26 ◼   ► I like having it all at one, but at this point, you know, when we replace this iMac, I'm going to

01:35:32 ◼   ► get her one with a two terabyte disk, or I'm going to move the iPhoto library to my Mac Pro with a

01:35:38 ◼   ► four terabyte internal SSD, whatever the hell I'm going to get in my fantasy world.

01:35:42 ◼   ► - That's actually, that's a not crazy way to do it.

01:35:46 ◼   ► Like one of the little hacks I recently decided to try

01:35:49 ◼   ► was I have my iMac and then a laptop

01:35:52 ◼   ► and they have one terabyte each

01:35:54 ◼   ► 'cause that was like the most you could get

01:35:55 ◼   ► on the iMac at the time and so I got that.

01:35:57 ◼   ► But I'm pushing that.

01:35:58 ◼   ► So like on the iMac, a couple years ago now,

01:36:01 ◼   ► I bought a little external Samsung SSD

01:36:04 ◼   ► and I moved over, it's very, very easy to have iTunes

01:36:09 ◼   ► and Apple Photos store their giant libraries anywhere else,

01:36:14 ◼   ► like on an external drive or anything,

01:36:15 ◼   ► it's very easy to do that.

01:36:16 ◼   ► Like you don't have to do any kind of weird

01:36:17 ◼   ► Sim Link trick or anything.

01:36:19 ◼   ► You can just tell it, I'm now moving this here,

01:36:22 ◼   ► and it just works for both Photos and iTunes.

01:36:24 ◼   ► And because it's such big things for most people,

01:36:27 ◼   ► that's like number one hit rate to move.

01:36:31 ◼   ► But one thing I started doing now with Photos is,

01:36:35 ◼   ► I signed it, so I have this Mac mini server at home.

01:36:38 ◼   ► It's like a little home utility server.

01:36:39 ◼   ► Among other things, it usually runs

01:36:41 ◼   ► in the livestream for the show.