ATP

00:00:00 ◼   ► So how was the trip? Did we talk about this publicly? I don't know that we did. Are we

00:00:03 ◼   ► talking about this publicly, whether or not it makes the show?

00:00:05 ◼   ► The only thing that made the show was the walkie-talkie bit.

00:00:08 ◼   ► Okay.

00:00:09 ◼   ► Where John was making fun of me for buying walkie-talkies for a road trip.

00:00:12 ◼   ► Yeah, I do want to hear about that, but not this minute. But how was the other parts of

00:00:17 ◼   ► the trip, just out of curiosity?

00:00:19 ◼   ► No, I ate way too many combos.

00:00:22 ◼   ► Did you enjoy all your good roadside coffee, or did you bring a gigantic thermos of good

00:00:27 ◼   ► coffee with you?

00:00:28 ◼   ► - I brought, oh you're gonna make so much fun of me.

00:00:31 ◼   ► Have I mentioned this before?

00:00:32 ◼   ► I have a, oh God, I have a monthly subscription

00:00:36 ◼   ► to a fancy hipster instant coffee thing from San Francisco.

00:00:41 ◼   ► - Why?

00:00:42 ◼   ► - I get eight little tubes of instant coffee powder a month,

00:00:46 ◼   ► delivered in a little canvas bag,

00:00:49 ◼   ► and they cost like a dollar fifty each,

00:00:51 ◼   ► it's a subscription, and it's instant coffee.

00:00:55 ◼   ► You dump it into water and it makes good coffee.

00:00:57 ◼   ► It's basically a really good version of instant coffee,

00:01:00 ◼   ► and it turns out instant coffee got popular

00:01:03 ◼   ► for very good reasons.

00:01:04 ◼   ► It's pretty damn convenient when you're traveling.

00:01:06 ◼   ► You know, like on the plane,

00:01:07 ◼   ► I got a cup of hot water, please,

00:01:08 ◼   ► and I got a hot water cup, and I dumped my coffee into it,

00:01:11 ◼   ► and stirred it up, and had my insufferable hipster coffee

00:01:15 ◼   ► right there on the plane.

00:01:16 ◼   ► It was wonderful.

00:01:18 ◼   ► - You would.

00:01:18 ◼   ► - I'm so sorry.

00:01:19 ◼   ► For anybody who cares, it's Sudden Coffee.

00:01:20 ◼   ► That's the name of it.

00:01:22 ◼   ► Because it's not instant, it's sudden.

00:01:23 ◼   ► Ha ha.

00:01:24 ◼   ► (laughing)

00:01:25 ◼   ► - It sounds like it surprises you.

00:01:28 ◼   ► You go to drink a cup of water

00:01:29 ◼   ► and all of a sudden it's brown and bitter.

00:01:30 ◼   ► What the hell?

00:01:31 ◼   ► (laughing)

00:01:32 ◼   ► It's sudden coffee.

00:01:33 ◼   ► - Holy shit, it's coffee.

00:01:34 ◼   ► - Whoa.

00:01:34 ◼   ► (laughing)

00:01:36 ◼   ► How did that get there?

00:01:37 ◼   ► (laughing)

00:01:38 ◼   ► - Where the hell did this come from?

00:01:40 ◼   ► - Anyway, it's not cheap but it's pretty good

00:01:41 ◼   ► if anybody needs this kind of thing.

00:01:43 ◼   ► It's pretty good.

00:01:44 ◼   ► - That's pretty much your motto.

00:01:46 ◼   ► It's not cheap but it's good.

00:01:47 ◼   ► - This is why anybody listening is probably like,

00:01:50 ◼   ► of course I have that.

00:01:51 ◼   ► This surprises nobody.

00:01:53 ◼   ► - This is surprising.

00:01:53 ◼   ► This is surprising.

00:01:54 ◼   ► - I thought you were gonna say you had like the

00:01:56 ◼   ► underscore kit where you have this entire

00:01:58 ◼   ► bunch of paraphernalia that you'd take out in the car,

00:02:01 ◼   ► including a little table lap desk to set it all up on.

00:02:04 ◼   ► And then plug in a kettle into the 12 volt socket

00:02:07 ◼   ► in the car and just, you know.

00:02:09 ◼   ► - I used to do that kind of like fancy, you know,

00:02:12 ◼   ► I brought my air press on a couple of trips.

00:02:14 ◼   ► And it was just such a pain.

00:02:16 ◼   ► I got like a travel grinder and everything like it.

00:02:18 ◼   ► And I just, I found it not worth the hassle.

00:02:22 ◼   ► And so instead, for a while I would just drink tea on trips,

00:02:26 ◼   ► I'd bring my own fancy tea bags,

00:02:27 ◼   ► but I don't like tea that much and coffee's better.

00:02:30 ◼   ► And so I found this and I decided,

00:02:33 ◼   ► oh, even though it's a subscription which I don't like,

00:02:36 ◼   ► I'm like, well, I'll try it, I'll see how it is.

00:02:38 ◼   ► And it's been good enough that I've kept it up.

00:02:41 ◼   ► Like I use it.

00:02:42 ◼   ► I don't always use it regularly.

00:02:44 ◼   ► Like sometimes I'll accumulate a couple extras

00:02:47 ◼   ► that I haven't used in the last month,

00:02:48 ◼   ► but it's fantastic for road trips.

00:02:51 ◼   ► Sometimes I'll just tear up one of those tubes and dump it in his mouth. He doesn't care.

00:02:54 ◼   ► I actually did that once.

00:02:55 ◼   ► [Laughter]

00:02:57 ◼   ► Okay, nice to my face!

00:02:58 ◼   ► I was on a road trip and I didn't want to stop to get like a cup of hot water.

00:03:02 ◼   ► Because there was no good place nearby to do that.

00:03:05 ◼   ► So I just kind of slowly ate the crystals.

00:03:07 ◼   ► [Laughter]

00:03:08 ◼   ► Oh my god.

00:03:09 ◼   ► It tasted fine.

00:03:10 ◼   ► Just a little strong.

00:03:11 ◼   ► That's really sad.

00:03:12 ◼   ► Someone draw a comic of that.

00:03:13 ◼   ► How come people never draw comics for our show?

00:03:15 ◼   ► Someone needs to draw a comic of Sad Marco eating the instant coffee, hipster instant coffee out of the tube.

00:03:20 ◼   ► Maybe a little tear, a tear going down his side of his face.

00:03:23 ◼   ► Yeah, driving on the Long Island Expressway.

00:03:25 ◼   ► That was another reason for a tear.

00:03:27 ◼   ► Yeah.

00:03:28 ◼   ► Stuck in traffic.

00:03:29 ◼   ► All right, let's start with some follow-up.

00:03:31 ◼   ► John, tell me about Breath of the Wild on the Wii U.

00:03:35 ◼   ► Last week, why were we talking about it?

00:03:36 ◼   ► Oh, we were talking about bitness of consoles was one of the Ask ATP questions, and I was

00:03:40 ◼   ► talking about how power still makes a difference in the modern era.

00:03:43 ◼   ► I'm talking about a game like Breath of the Wild, which is a large open world Zelda game,

00:03:47 ◼   ► how you couldn't play it on a less powerful console, and I said the Wii U, and I should

00:03:52 ◼   ► have just said the Wii, because obviously, in the grand tradition, I guess two data points

00:03:56 ◼   ► makes a tradition, of Zelda games that are initially developed for one console, but take

00:04:01 ◼   ► so long to get done that the second console comes out, and then they launch it on both

00:04:06 ◼   ► consoles simultaneously.

00:04:08 ◼   ► That was the case with Breath of the Wild.

00:04:10 ◼   ► It was actually developed for the Wii U, and only later launched on the Switch, and that

00:04:15 ◼   ► happened with Twilight Princess for the GameCube and the Wii. Although Twilight Princess, I

00:04:20 ◼   ► highly recommend playing it on the GameCube, not on the Wii because the motion controls

00:04:23 ◼   ► are not very good. So a surprisingly small number of people sent in that correction,

00:04:30 ◼   ► but to the people who did, good job.

00:04:32 ◼   ► And to everyone else, Jon is disappointed in you.

00:04:35 ◼   ► Yeah, seriously. Pretty big gaffe in the grand scheme of things. Maybe if it was about Apple

00:04:41 ◼   ► stuff, we would have gotten more people.

00:04:44 ◼   ► Half of the internet wrote in to tell us that the Space Gray keyboard, mouse, and Magic

00:04:48 ◼   ► Trackpad are all available separately now, if that's your cup of tea.

00:04:52 ◼   ► I am currently fondling touching a Space Gray keyboard, and I have a Space Gray Magic Mouse

00:04:59 ◼   ► next to me, and I have a Space Gray Magic Trackpad that I use from time to time.

00:05:03 ◼   ► These were all secondhand from friend of the show, underscore David Smith, who did not

00:05:07 ◼   ► charge me a premium.

00:05:08 ◼   ► However, Apple will charge you a $20 price premium because Apple.

00:05:11 ◼   ► Yeah, why is it that the dark ones, I mean technically they can do this with any color.

00:05:17 ◼   ► Let's just make fewer of them and then charge more because they're more rare.

00:05:20 ◼   ► Sure you can do it all the time, but in general Apple doesn't seem to do that with things

00:05:24 ◼   ► that come in colors.

00:05:25 ◼   ► Like you can get your phones or your iPads in various colors, gold, rose gold, space

00:05:29 ◼   ► gray, sometimes they come in black, but there's no price difference between the colors.

00:05:33 ◼   ► And yet somehow in the Mac world, every time something gets a darker color, it's an extra

00:05:37 ◼   ► twenty bucks or something.

00:05:39 ◼   ► And I don't know, for some reason it bothers me that you can get iOS devices in different

00:05:46 ◼   ► colors for the same price, but in the Mac side that's not the case.

00:05:49 ◼   ► So anyway, I just hope if you're out there listening to this, you didn't buy a space

00:05:53 ◼   ► gray iMac Pro keyboard for $1,500 on eBay, because that would have been a bad move.

00:05:58 ◼   ► I kind of feel like my iMac Pro is less special now that these are available to anybody.

00:06:03 ◼   ► I'm so sorry.

00:06:04 ◼   ► - Yeah, well, listeners of the show

00:06:06 ◼   ► would have been well warned

00:06:08 ◼   ► because as soon as the iMacros came out,

00:06:11 ◼   ► we were surprised that they,

00:06:13 ◼   ► wasn't our prediction that they wouldn't sell

00:06:14 ◼   ► for a lot on eBay because people would realize

00:06:16 ◼   ► Apple's just gonna introduce them

00:06:17 ◼   ► and then your things will be worthless.

00:06:18 ◼   ► But alas, that's not the way people think.

00:06:21 ◼   ► And so some people did buy them and sell them apparently

00:06:24 ◼   ► for very high prices on eBay

00:06:25 ◼   ► and I hope all those people are sad now.

00:06:28 ◼   ► - Snarky John tonight, is everything okay?

00:06:31 ◼   ► - And the people who sold them aren't sad.

00:06:32 ◼   ► - That's true.

00:06:33 ◼   ► Yeah, I guess.

00:06:34 ◼   ► Well, they should be because they took advantage of somebody that may feel bad about that,

00:06:38 ◼   ► right?

00:06:39 ◼   ► Only if Apple should not feel bad they're charging $20 more for no reason.

00:06:42 ◼   ► $20 premium is better than like a $1,350 premium.

00:06:48 ◼   ► We are sponsored this week by Jamf Now.

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00:08:06 ◼   ► That's J-A-M-F dot com slash ATP.

00:08:09 ◼   ► Thank you so much to Jamf now for sponsoring our show.

00:08:12 ◼   ► (upbeat music)

00:08:15 ◼   ► - I would, at this point, plug our live show.

00:08:19 ◼   ► That is going to be happening at WWDC on Monday night,

00:08:21 ◼   ► but it is sold out.

00:08:22 ◼   ► So if you happen to have a ticket and know you won't need it,

00:08:26 ◼   ► please get in contact with AltConf and let them know that or tell a friend or do something.

00:08:32 ◼   ► But we have no control over attendance. We have no sway over wait lists or anything like

00:08:37 ◼   ► that. So thank you to everyone who has purchased a ticket. We hope to see you there. And it

00:08:43 ◼   ► should be really exciting.

00:08:44 ◼   ► You could win one from a friend in the game of chance.

00:08:46 ◼   ► I'm assuming this is a reference I'm not aware of. Anyway. All right. So Marco, you went

00:08:52 ◼   ► on a really long road trip recently and you had mentioned briefly in the last episode

00:08:56 ◼   ► that you had bought some walkie-talkies to take with you because it was going to be a

00:09:00 ◼   ► multi-car caravan. The last I tried to use walkie-talkies, which was just a handful of

00:09:05 ◼   ► years ago, they were promised to work for like 34 zillion miles and worked for about

00:09:11 ◼   ► 34 feet. So tell me about your fans. I'm sure you bought the most heinously expensive walkie-talkies

00:09:17 ◼   ► you could find. Tell me how well or not well they worked.

00:09:20 ◼   ► - So they were only, I think it was something like

00:09:22 ◼   ► 60 or 70 dollars for a pair.

00:09:25 ◼   ► And then it included all the accessories

00:09:26 ◼   ► like the charging base and everything.

00:09:28 ◼   ► So I wouldn't say that was that expensive.

00:09:30 ◼   ► It's some kind of Cobra, if you look at Amazon,

00:09:33 ◼   ► like the Cobra model that is the highest of its group,

00:09:37 ◼   ► that's the one I got.

00:09:38 ◼   ► It's like something like that for a pair.

00:09:39 ◼   ► And it's the one, it has a very useful feature.

00:09:42 ◼   ► This is one of the reasons I went to this model,

00:09:44 ◼   ► that it has a repeat that back button.

00:09:48 ◼   ► So it keeps a buffer over the last few things

00:09:50 ◼   ► that were said, and so if you miss what somebody said,

00:09:53 ◼   ► you can just hit that and it plays it again,

00:09:55 ◼   ► which is really useful.

00:09:56 ◼   ► Anyway, John made it fun of me relentlessly

00:09:59 ◼   ► for buying walkie talkies for the purpose

00:10:01 ◼   ► of communicating between two vehicles on a road trip,

00:10:03 ◼   ► because we have cell phones.

00:10:05 ◼   ► And that was a really good argument.

00:10:06 ◼   ► Cell phones do sound way better.

00:10:09 ◼   ► Unfortunately, it takes a little bit of time

00:10:11 ◼   ► to create a cell phone connection.

00:10:14 ◼   ► You have to pick up the phone, unlock it if it's not unlocked,

00:10:16 ◼   ► tap something, find them, you know, connect.

00:10:19 ◼   ► Oh, walkie talkie, you literally just push a button

00:10:21 ◼   ► and you immediately can say something to them.

00:10:22 ◼   ► - I told you, you should have had your phones

00:10:23 ◼   ► connected the whole time.

00:10:25 ◼   ► - Yes, but we were like listening to music

00:10:26 ◼   ► and podcasts and stuff the whole time with our phones.

00:10:28 ◼   ► - Yeah, you muted and when you wanna talk, you hit the mute.

00:10:30 ◼   ► It's not like you're browsing Twitter on it,

00:10:31 ◼   ► bouncing on the dashboard, hit the mute button.

00:10:33 ◼   ► Mute, mute, mute, unmute, unmute, unmute.

00:10:35 ◼   ► - No, but-- - Yeah, I can't even say it.

00:10:36 ◼   ► - But the phone was being used for the media,

00:10:38 ◼   ► so that's no good.

00:10:40 ◼   ► - Well, what were you, what media, oh, the podcasts?

00:10:42 ◼   ► - Yeah, podcasts, music, or navigation directions.

00:10:45 ◼   ► We were also using Waze to navigate.

00:10:46 ◼   ► - You can do all that at once on your phone.

00:10:48 ◼   ► - Nope, you can't play media

00:10:50 ◼   ► while you're taking a phone call.

00:10:52 ◼   ► Anyway, so, and also, where these really came in handy,

00:10:56 ◼   ► besides the incredibly fast ability to just push a button

00:10:59 ◼   ► and say something quick like,

00:11:01 ◼   ► hey, watch out, don't merge left yet,

00:11:02 ◼   ► or something like that, or you don't wanna stop at this exit,

00:11:05 ◼   ► really quick stuff, but also,

00:11:08 ◼   ► not the entirety of our trip had cell phone coverage.

00:11:12 ◼   ► Because we were going to a very rural place

00:11:14 ◼   ► at the end of the trip, the entire last 45 minutes

00:11:18 ◼   ► had no coverage, during which we were on the walkie talkies

00:11:21 ◼   ► a lot to coordinate things like where we were gonna park

00:11:24 ◼   ► this giant truck and what direction it had to face,

00:11:27 ◼   ► how we were going to get it that way,

00:11:29 ◼   ► what we were gonna do once we got there,

00:11:30 ◼   ► how we were gonna do the very first steps to unload it

00:11:33 ◼   ► and all the logistics involved.

00:11:34 ◼   ► They proved to be invaluable.

00:11:37 ◼   ► Everybody involved in this trip was very, very happy

00:11:40 ◼   ► that we had these walkie talkies.

00:11:42 ◼   ► They were wonderful in ways that a phone

00:11:45 ◼   ► either would have been worse or would have not worked at all.

00:11:47 ◼   ► So John was totally wrong.

00:11:48 ◼   ► And to answer Casey's question, the range,

00:11:53 ◼   ► I did a little bit of research obviously when buying these.

00:11:55 ◼   ► And it appears-- - You?

00:11:56 ◼   ► - Most of them seem to quote a range of

00:12:01 ◼   ► somewhere between like 10 and 50 miles.

00:12:04 ◼   ► And it doesn't take that much digging

00:12:06 ◼   ► to realize that that's actually like,

00:12:08 ◼   ► if you're like two people on top of mountaintops

00:12:10 ◼   ► with nothing in between you,

00:12:12 ◼   ► that's like the most ideal scenario

00:12:14 ◼   ► of like nothing obstructing it,

00:12:16 ◼   ► no interference from anything.

00:12:18 ◼   ► If you use it in a more realistic location,

00:12:23 ◼   ► like in a town or on a highway,

00:12:25 ◼   ► the mileage basically gets cut to a tenth,

00:12:28 ◼   ► so it gets decimated, right?

00:12:30 ◼   ► That's what that means?

00:12:31 ◼   ► So yeah, so it basically gets--

00:12:33 ◼   ► So your 37 mile one is actually more like three miles.

00:12:39 ◼   ► And even that is like, if you're in a really dense area

00:12:41 ◼   ► like in a city with lots of buildings and everything,

00:12:44 ◼   ► it might be more like one mile, or maybe even a half mile,

00:12:48 ◼   ► worst case scenario for these bigger ones.

00:12:50 ◼   ► And there's a limit on how powerful they can transmit,

00:12:54 ◼   ► which I think on most of the bands is two watts.

00:12:56 ◼   ► So that's kinda what limits how powerful they can be.

00:13:00 ◼   ► But yeah, so it was fun, it was totally worth it.

00:13:02 ◼   ► And they're really modern useful things,

00:13:04 ◼   ► like the playback feature.

00:13:07 ◼   ► and they both can charge via USB,

00:13:10 ◼   ► or take AA batteries,

00:13:11 ◼   ► or you can put rechargeable batteries in them

00:13:13 ◼   ► and charge them through the USB ports.

00:13:15 ◼   ► It's great.

00:13:16 ◼   ► So John was wrong, the end.

00:13:18 ◼   ► - So just for the young people listening,

00:13:20 ◼   ► I wanna assure you that it actually is possible

00:13:21 ◼   ► to take tandem car trips without either cell phones

00:13:24 ◼   ► or walkie-talkies.

00:13:26 ◼   ► - Yeah, but it sucks.

00:13:27 ◼   ► - It does suck.

00:13:28 ◼   ► I would agree with both of you.

00:13:29 ◼   ► - It's fun, you have to come up with systems for signaling,

00:13:32 ◼   ► and then get frustrated while the people

00:13:33 ◼   ► don't follow the systems for signaling.

00:13:35 ◼   ► - That's a John statement if I've ever heard

00:13:37 ◼   ► - That's not my word.

00:13:38 ◼   ► - It is fun though.

00:13:38 ◼   ► It's like being a spy.

00:13:40 ◼   ► - Something like that.

00:13:41 ◼   ► - If I put my right hand out the window,

00:13:43 ◼   ► that means pull over.

00:13:45 ◼   ► Put my left hand out the window, that means merge.

00:13:48 ◼   ► - Aye yai yai.

00:13:49 ◼   ► All right, we should get to the actual topics

00:13:52 ◼   ► for this evening and something happened on Tuesday

00:13:54 ◼   ► and something something education.

00:13:57 ◼   ► Moving on, let's finally get to the topic

00:13:59 ◼   ► we all wanna get to, which is Apple's Hay Day.

00:14:04 ◼   ► Let's talk about this.

00:14:04 ◼   ► - There's one in between that you skip,

00:14:06 ◼   ► but no, we're gonna talk about the Tuesday thing.

00:14:08 ◼   ► We're not gonna go through the event blow by blow

00:14:09 ◼   ► 'cause there wasn't that much to go through.

00:14:11 ◼   ► - I thought this was so funny because last week,

00:14:13 ◼   ► we as professional podcasters completely failed to mention

00:14:17 ◼   ► our W2C live show and also that there was about to be

00:14:21 ◼   ► an Apple event that we all knew about and we're like,

00:14:23 ◼   ► ooh, everyone else is doing predictions

00:14:25 ◼   ► and at least mentioning this is gonna happen.

00:14:27 ◼   ► We completely failed to even mention it.

00:14:29 ◼   ► - I don't think we failed to because I knew about it.

00:14:31 ◼   ► I just didn't think there was anything worth saying

00:14:33 ◼   ► on the last show.

00:14:34 ◼   ► I think we talked about it beforehand and like,

00:14:36 ◼   ► well, we'll see what they announce.

00:14:38 ◼   ► But until, I didn't have high expectations

00:14:41 ◼   ► of what they were gonna announce,

00:14:42 ◼   ► and so I didn't really feel like it was worth discussing

00:14:45 ◼   ► until they announced something.

00:14:46 ◼   ► - I mean, I didn't have high expectations either,

00:14:48 ◼   ► and they even failed to meet those.

00:14:49 ◼   ► I thought it'd be really funny

00:14:51 ◼   ► if we just never mentioned it at all,

00:14:53 ◼   ► because there was so little really to it,

00:14:57 ◼   ► but unfortunately, Jon wants to talk about it,

00:15:01 ◼   ► so we're gonna talk about it.

00:15:03 ◼   ► Just pretend like we never actually mentioned it,

00:15:05 ◼   ► and it's funnier that way.

00:15:06 ◼   ► - There wasn't a lot of product announcements,

00:15:08 ◼   ► but I think there are things to talk about, though.

00:15:10 ◼   ► So my first question is,

00:15:11 ◼   ► did you two actually watch the event?

00:15:13 ◼   ► - Nope.

00:15:14 ◼   ► Not live, but I, 'cause it was actually

00:15:15 ◼   ► during the road trip that I was taking,

00:15:17 ◼   ► but I downloaded the video and watched it that night.

00:15:20 ◼   ► - Casey's poo-pooing this event, he didn't even watch it.

00:15:21 ◼   ► How do you know?

00:15:22 ◼   ► They could've had seven slides about you.

00:15:24 ◼   ► - I have to admit, I also fast-forwarded

00:15:26 ◼   ► through some parts of it, 'cause it, you know what?

00:15:29 ◼   ► What I didn't like about it overall,

00:15:33 ◼   ► it kind of made me feel, I don't know,

00:15:36 ◼   ► it was a little bit off-putting.

00:15:37 ◼   ► It basically seemed like they were holding an event

00:15:40 ◼   ► to almost like yell at the world like,

00:15:44 ◼   ► "No, look, we care about education,"

00:15:46 ◼   ► but without actually backing it up

00:15:48 ◼   ► with what I consider to be enough.

00:15:51 ◼   ► And that could take lots of different forms,

00:15:52 ◼   ► and you could disagree or agree with that,

00:15:54 ◼   ► but I felt like the premise of an education event,

00:15:58 ◼   ► that they call the press out and everything,

00:16:01 ◼   ► And by the way, if I was an independent journalist

00:16:06 ◼   ► who flew out there on my own dime to cover this,

00:16:08 ◼   ► I'd be pretty annoyed, honestly.

00:16:10 ◼   ► But anyway, and I'm friends with some of these people,

00:16:13 ◼   ► and they haven't told me this behind the scenes,

00:16:14 ◼   ► I'm just saying if I were one of these people,

00:16:17 ◼   ► I would be annoyed that I had spent

00:16:19 ◼   ► the time and money to do this.

00:16:20 ◼   ► But the impression I got from this event

00:16:22 ◼   ► was that it was a lot of cheerleading,

00:16:27 ◼   ► it was almost like a pep rally for Apple and for teachers.

00:16:30 ◼   ► - It's so accurate, given it was in a school.

00:16:33 ◼   ► - Yeah, right?

00:16:34 ◼   ► But without enough substance, I thought, to back that up.

00:16:36 ◼   ► It was really more like, look at how great we already are

00:16:41 ◼   ► at the things that we are already doing.

00:16:43 ◼   ► Not so much, here's some new software, new changes,

00:16:47 ◼   ► new hardware, whatever it is.

00:16:49 ◼   ► There was actually very little of that,

00:16:51 ◼   ► at least very little of relevance or of significance.

00:16:54 ◼   ► And there was just a lot more like,

00:16:56 ◼   ► here's how great we are, here's someone else

00:16:58 ◼   ► to come out and tell you how great we've been

00:17:00 ◼   ► and how great we're going to keep being.

00:17:02 ◼   ► And it was a weird balance.

00:17:04 ◼   ► I just felt almost like my attention

00:17:07 ◼   ► was taken advantage of.

00:17:11 ◼   ► - You're waiting for them to get to the product announcements.

00:17:13 ◼   ► - No, and look, I wasn't expecting an iPhone or anything.

00:17:15 ◼   ► I knew that it was a focused education event.

00:17:18 ◼   ► That's one thing, but if you look at what people

00:17:22 ◼   ► would reasonably expect out of a publicized press event

00:17:27 ◼   ► regarding Apple and education,

00:17:29 ◼   ► I would have expected a lot more than what we actually got.

00:17:33 ◼   ► - Some people were tweeting, I forget when it was,

00:17:34 ◼   ► like the 20 or 30 minute mark.

00:17:36 ◼   ► They were like, we're 20 minutes in

00:17:38 ◼   ► and they still haven't said anything about any products yet.

00:17:41 ◼   ► There was a long lead in

00:17:42 ◼   ► and there was a long lead out as well.

00:17:44 ◼   ► So I don't remember the last education event,

00:17:48 ◼   ► but another thing people were tweeting about

00:17:49 ◼   ► was exactly how long ago the last education event was.

00:17:53 ◼   ► Apparently they don't even have these things

00:17:54 ◼   ► every two or three years.

00:17:56 ◼   ► There are long gaps between the events.

00:17:59 ◼   ► Having a dedicated education event.

00:18:00 ◼   ► Apple does stuff education-related all the time, but having a dedicated event for it

00:18:04 ◼   ► doesn't happen all the time.

00:18:05 ◼   ► I think the last time we talked about it, these stats were similar, but to frame this

00:18:11 ◼   ► to like why is Apple having an education event?

00:18:14 ◼   ► Why are they spending an hour on stage telling you about all the things that Apple does related

00:18:19 ◼   ► to education and trying to make them seem, to Marco's point, as good as possible, seem

00:18:25 ◼   ► desirable, seem like that Apple is doing great things in education.

00:18:29 ◼   ► This is a quote from Bloomberg, a Bloomberg article, link in the show notes.

00:18:33 ◼   ► Chromebooks accounted for 60% of laptops, tablet, and other mobile computers shipping

00:18:36 ◼   ► to U.S. K-12 schools in the third quarter of 2017.

00:18:40 ◼   ► Apple's iPads accounted for 12% of those school devices, which is less than half its market

00:18:44 ◼   ► share from 2014.

00:18:45 ◼   ► So from 2014 to 2017, their market share has been cut in half, more than cut in half.

00:18:52 ◼   ► So not only is Apple not leading in market share in this education category they're addressing

00:19:00 ◼   ► here, which is basically United States K-12 schools, not only are Chromebooks eating their

00:19:06 ◼   ► lunch there, but it's not as if that's just the status quo.

00:19:09 ◼   ► It's like, yeah, well, you know, Apple's never had big market share, but they have the important

00:19:14 ◼   ► part.

00:19:15 ◼   ► In three years, their small market share has been cut in half.

00:19:19 ◼   ► So if I were Apple and I cared anything about education, I would have to be taking a hard

00:19:25 ◼   ► look at this and saying, "Should we get out of the education market or should we do something?"

00:19:31 ◼   ► Because unlike lots of other markets where we have small market share but it's steady

00:19:35 ◼   ► and we reap most of the profits, like the phone market for example, Apple does not dominate

00:19:41 ◼   ► the phone market market share-wise.

00:19:42 ◼   ► But Apple is probably not crying over that because they make so much money on it and

00:19:48 ◼   ► They are seen to have, if not the best phone, then one of the best phones.

00:19:54 ◼   ► And I don't think you see a lot of articles anymore saying Apple needs to up its phone

00:19:58 ◼   ► market share or they're going to be doomed or Android is eating Apple's lunch in the

00:20:02 ◼   ► phone market just because the money talks.

00:20:04 ◼   ► You look at where all the money goes, it goes to Apple.

00:20:07 ◼   ► And also, if Apple's phone market share had been cut in half in the last three years,

00:20:11 ◼   ► I think there'd be a lot of articles about that.

00:20:13 ◼   ► So I feel like the context for this event is Apple trying to figure out how to even

00:20:21 ◼   ► just stay in the game in education.

00:20:23 ◼   ► Forget about it, here's how great we are, but just, is this a market where we can make

00:20:29 ◼   ► a difference?

00:20:30 ◼   ► Where we can be a player?

00:20:31 ◼   ► Where we can be important?

00:20:34 ◼   ► And that got me thinking about how the education market is different from the phone market,

00:20:39 ◼   ► or the personal computer market, or the TV connected puck market, or the home cylinder

00:20:42 ◼   ► that you yell at market or whatever, you know, the fancy computer watch market.

00:20:48 ◼   ► Lots of, like, in the modern era, Apple has been all about making tons of money selling

00:20:55 ◼   ► relatively high margin expensive products to a minority of a market.

00:20:59 ◼   ► The phone market is the best example of that.

00:21:02 ◼   ► They make so much money and their market share is so small compared to the aggregate of all

00:21:08 ◼   ► their competitors, which is always just lumped together as like Apple and not Apple, basically

00:21:12 ◼   ► Android and iOS. But they just make so much money. It's like, well, this is a winning

00:21:16 ◼   ► strategy. We don't really care. We're not going to worry that, oh, we need to make a

00:21:22 ◼   ► netbook. Remember, the netbook's little cheap laptops to compete with the PC space. We need

00:21:26 ◼   ► to make a super cheap iPhone to compete with Android. That's not how Apple plays the game.

00:21:33 ◼   ► They want to sell to the best part of the market, best meaning the part that is the

00:21:37 ◼   ► most lucrative, the part that allows Apple to make the fanciest products because people

00:21:41 ◼   ► will pay the highest price and the highest margins and all that Apple's products look

00:21:45 ◼   ► nice and everything like that.

00:21:48 ◼   ► And I was thinking about whether that strategy is viable in education because as far as I

00:21:56 ◼   ► can tell, Apple continues to essentially pursue that in these past decade or so in education,

00:22:02 ◼   ► saying we're not going to have the majority of the education market, but we'll have the

00:22:07 ◼   ► quote-unquote best part of the education market, the richest schools will buy Apple stuff.

00:22:13 ◼   ► Like I'm trying to figure out what they're thinking.

00:22:16 ◼   ► If you can afford us, we give you the best school experience, or it will seem the fanciest

00:22:23 ◼   ► if you buy Apple stuff.

00:22:25 ◼   ► And for some reason, when it comes to education, that rubs me the wrong way more so than smartphones.

00:22:31 ◼   ► Just because education I think of more as a thing that has to be for everybody.

00:22:37 ◼   ► Whereas smartphones, there are options, and if you don't have an iPhone, you are not disadvantaged

00:22:44 ◼   ► in life versus if you have an Android phone, right?

00:22:46 ◼   ► But if you don't have an education or don't have a good education, or your education is

00:22:50 ◼   ► not as rich as someone else's, that feels, you know, inequitable to me.

00:22:56 ◼   ► And so I'm watching this presentation and I'm trying to figure out, is Apple changing

00:23:01 ◼   ► course here? Are they saying, "We're going to figure out how to let more students get

00:23:11 ◼   ► access to our products," or are we still concentrating on providing the best products

00:23:17 ◼   ► for the few students who are lucky enough to go to a school that can afford them? And

00:23:23 ◼   ► the presentation, as I read it, as someone who is not—I'm not involved in the education

00:23:28 ◼   ► system but I do have kids in school, seemed to me that they were not changing their strategy,

00:23:34 ◼   ► that everything they presented was beautifully polished, sort of very sort of high-end, nice

00:23:40 ◼   ► to look at applications, hardware and software that a few schools are lucky enough to have,

00:23:48 ◼   ► but that the pricing was the same as it's ever been, and that nothing they announced

00:23:55 ◼   ► is going to help them compete with the things that are currently eating their lunch in the

00:23:59 ◼   ► market, not just on price, but from what I understand from people in education, a lot

00:24:05 ◼   ► of the features for the stuff that Google offers are better than the feature that Apple

00:24:10 ◼   ► offers.

00:24:11 ◼   ► That's why part of the announcements are, yeah, we have a product, a new iPad, but we

00:24:15 ◼   ► also have a bunch of new software that's playing catch-up to our competitors to say, oh, here's

00:24:19 ◼   ► an easier way to manage a bunch of iPads, using an easier way for a teacher to manage

00:24:22 ◼   ► a bunch of students doing things.

00:24:24 ◼   ► But even that, even the catch-up software, I saw a lot of complaints saying, "Okay,

00:24:28 ◼   ► but you still haven't caught up entirely to the functionality offered by Google in

00:24:32 ◼   ► terms of integrating into other school system things and providing a broader set of functionality,"

00:24:36 ◼   ► which may not be pretty and fancy and have the Apple Pencil support and high-end video

00:24:43 ◼   ► production capabilities so kids can make cool videos about gravity and stuff, but practically

00:24:47 ◼   ► speaking, when it comes to reading, writing, and arithmetic and the basics of functioning

00:24:52 ◼   ► in a school and having a lot of students and a lot of devices and managing it all.

00:24:58 ◼   ► But still, Apple's offerings aren't even the best and they're certainly not the cheapest.

00:25:03 ◼   ► So I'm kind of confused/concerned about Apple's approach to education because it seems to

00:25:10 ◼   ► me that if they really want to make a difference in this market, they need to pursue a different

00:25:14 ◼   ► strategy because I don't think it's appropriate to pursue a strategy like they do in the consumer

00:25:20 ◼   ► market in education.

00:25:22 ◼   ► I don't know, maybe I'm wrong about that.

00:25:23 ◼   ► I would love to hear from people in education

00:25:26 ◼   ► who have worked with Apple and Google stuff

00:25:28 ◼   ► about how they perceive these competitors.

00:25:32 ◼   ► Did people watch the education event,

00:25:34 ◼   ► people who are actually teachers or school administrators

00:25:38 ◼   ► and think that Apple had done something

00:25:40 ◼   ► that's gonna change the game

00:25:42 ◼   ► or did it just seem like more of the same?

00:25:45 ◼   ► - I thought Joe Saplinsky had a few good tweets about this

00:25:48 ◼   ► and I'll probably forget to put them in the show notes,

00:25:50 ◼   ► But Joe used to be a, I think he was an English teacher,

00:25:55 ◼   ► if I'm not mistaken, apologies if I have that wrong.

00:25:57 ◼   ► But now he's an app developer and designer and slash rockstar.

00:26:01 ◼   ► But in any case, you know, his take about it was, you know,

00:26:05 ◼   ► look, Apple doesn't really play the cheap game,

00:26:10 ◼   ► just like you were saying, Jon.

00:26:11 ◼   ► You know, it's not Apple's card that they play.

00:26:14 ◼   ► So are we really surprised that this is the way

00:26:16 ◼   ► this event turned out?

00:26:18 ◼   ► And, you know, he and I went back and forth a little bit in a happy way, or at least I

00:26:22 ◼   ► thought I was happy, maybe he was annoyed at me.

00:26:24 ◼   ► But yeah, we went back and forth a little bit.

00:26:26 ◼   ► And the thing that, you know, I've not worked in education, but Aaron was a teacher, a high

00:26:31 ◼   ► school teacher for a long time.

00:26:32 ◼   ► And in fact, I think I've mentioned this a few times on the show, a few years ago, actually

00:26:36 ◼   ► many years ago now, there was national news about like a stampede that happened because

00:26:42 ◼   ► iBooks were being sold for 50 bucks a pop at the Richmond International Raceway.

00:26:46 ◼   ► And they were old, like high school iBooks that were being retired, and so they were

00:26:50 ◼   ► selling them obscenely cheaply.

00:26:52 ◼   ► And people like got trampled trying to buy these cheap iBooks.

00:26:55 ◼   ► Well, that happened because of the county in which we live.

00:26:58 ◼   ► It was our county that was selling all those.

00:27:01 ◼   ► And so Erin, when she was teaching, the kids all got issued Dells when they were—when

00:27:05 ◼   ► she was teaching.

00:27:06 ◼   ► Dude.

00:27:07 ◼   ► It was just a—yeah, you're getting a Dell.

00:27:09 ◼   ► It was just a couple years before that they were getting these iBooks, et cetera.

00:27:14 ◼   ► So having spoken to Erin about this, I mean, again, I'm still a little bit removed from

00:27:20 ◼   ► the actual decision-making, as was she, but it seemed pretty clear to me that even in

00:27:27 ◼   ► a relatively affluent area like we're in, I mean, we're no like, you know, Greenwich

00:27:34 ◼   ► County, Connecticut or anything like that, but we're not, you know, broke around these

00:27:38 ◼   ► parts.

00:27:39 ◼   ► And even here, it's all about cost.

00:27:42 ◼   ► just a hundred percent about cost. And so yeah, I think you're right, John, that maybe the apples play

00:27:47 ◼   ► is, "Hey, if you happen to live in a really rich area, or if you go to like a very well-to-do private

00:27:51 ◼   ► school or something like that, then yeah, we have all sorts of sweet answers for you. We have a sweet

00:27:55 ◼   ► solution for you." But I don't know of any like quote-unquote "regular school system" that is going

00:28:04 ◼   ► to look at anything more than initial purchase price. Maybe, maybe total cost of ownership.

00:28:12 ◼   ► Maybe. But generally speaking it's going to be purchase price. And the other thing I've

00:28:15 ◼   ► gleaned from Bradley Chambers and Fraser Spears and a few others is that apparently the management

00:28:21 ◼   ► stuff that Google has is way better than what Apple has. It's not even in the ballpark.

00:28:27 ◼   ► Now to be fair you can supplement what Apple does with like Jamf or other other third-party tools,

00:28:31 ◼   ► But it's just it seems to be a lot more work and a lot more money to use the Apple suite

00:28:36 ◼   ► Is that worth it? Maybe they certainly painted from what I've gleaned from not having watched the event

00:28:42 ◼   ► He certainly painted a pretty compelling pictures to all the things you can do with iPads in the classroom and so on and so forth

00:28:47 ◼   ► But I I just don't see how that's a realistic play

00:28:52 ◼   ► For almost any general school system in the world and if you're gonna spend three hundred thirty dollars on

00:28:59 ◼   ► You know, per kid on an iPad.

00:29:02 ◼   ► I don't, I gotta imagine an aggregate

00:29:04 ◼   ► that adds up to a not insignificant amount of money.

00:29:07 ◼   ► And the first place I would put that is teacher salaries,

00:29:10 ◼   ► because at least in America,

00:29:11 ◼   ► salaries are just hilariously just devastatingly small.

00:29:15 ◼   ► And it's absurd how little teachers get paid here.

00:29:18 ◼   ► - I guess the other point that is less and less mentioned,

00:29:22 ◼   ► I feel like, in the modern Apple era,

00:29:24 ◼   ► which is general skepticism about whether

00:29:28 ◼   ► the addition of technology actually improves education.

00:29:31 ◼   ► To your point, Casey, about maybe you actually paid teachers more, that would improve education

00:29:35 ◼   ► more than buying all the kids a laptop.

00:29:36 ◼   ► Like, there is a technology angle that Apple can speak to, which is they have a very important,

00:29:41 ◼   ► profitable platform that if things keep going well will be a viable place for children to

00:29:48 ◼   ► make their living.

00:29:50 ◼   ► And so teaching coding skills, and just more broadly, teaching coding skills, which is

00:29:53 ◼   ► the thing that Apple's familiar with because they have a developer, you know, they have

00:29:56 ◼   ► developers, they have developer relations, they have developer tools, they are well equipped

00:30:00 ◼   ► to make an education-focused version of teaching people how—computer skills, which I think

00:30:05 ◼   ► is a viable thing to learn in school, right? And Apple has expertise there, so welcome

00:30:09 ◼   ► Apple to the education. You're teaching about something you know. But beyond that, I feel

00:30:14 ◼   ► like when I was a kid, there was much more skepticism about whether having kids make

00:30:18 ◼   ► a multimedia presentation about gravity, like in that they have this cute video of kids,

00:30:23 ◼   ► you know, doing this project and making slow-mo videos on all their iOS devices and cutting

00:30:26 ◼   ► it together and making animations and doing all that.

00:30:30 ◼   ► Looks fun, seems expensive, and especially like these, you know, incredibly high production

00:30:34 ◼   ► values that these, for the things they do in these little promotional videos.

00:30:39 ◼   ► But does that actually improve education?

00:30:42 ◼   ► Like there's enrichment and there is getting kids engaged with technology and there is

00:30:46 ◼   ► having the advantage to do something a little bit different every once in a while.

00:30:50 ◼   ► But I think the vision presented by Apple of that like all kids are doing creative multimedia

00:30:55 ◼   ► digital things all the time is not representative of like the broader effort to educate.

00:31:03 ◼   ► Like those are the most fun parts and you can make learning fun with the addition of

00:31:07 ◼   ► technology but you can make learning fun with the addition of you know just sitting in a

00:31:12 ◼   ► circle and talking to each other and you know or just going on a field trip.

00:31:17 ◼   ► Like there is—it just seems to me that Apple seems uninterested in what will actually make

00:31:26 ◼   ► education better and more interested in how can we make education better with our products.

00:31:36 ◼   ► And I'm not entirely sure their products make education better in a way that is worth

00:31:43 ◼   ► the money spent on.

00:31:45 ◼   ► Not all those people's like, oh,

00:31:46 ◼   ► schools shouldn't have computers or anything like that.

00:31:48 ◼   ► It just seems to me that like,

00:31:51 ◼   ► that learning is not linked to the technology involved.

00:31:55 ◼   ► Right?

00:31:56 ◼   ► That you can learn all the same things

00:31:59 ◼   ► in exciting, engaging ways

00:32:01 ◼   ► without having computers involved at all.

00:32:06 ◼   ► Unless of course you're learning about computers,

00:32:07 ◼   ► which again, that's the angle that Apple has expertise on.

00:32:09 ◼   ► And they're wise to lean on it,

00:32:11 ◼   ► like learning to code and the Swift playground

00:32:13 ◼   ► and all that stuff.

00:32:14 ◼   ► learning about computers. Computers may help you. Typewriters may help you. Slates may

00:32:19 ◼   ► help you. Pencils and lined paper may help you. But in the end, the learning part, it

00:32:24 ◼   ► seems much more—there are so many other much bigger factors, starting with just like

00:32:30 ◼   ► temperature control and safety all the way up to class size and teachers that are not

00:32:36 ◼   ► stressed out and are not underpaid and overworked and just curriculum that suits the students,

00:32:43 ◼   ► learning strategies, special help for the kids who need it. There's so many more things

00:32:48 ◼   ► that are more important to me than whether my kids have the latest iPad or Android devices

00:32:54 ◼   ► or whatever. And I'm not saying that it's Apple's job to solve education. The problem

00:33:00 ◼   ► is just that I didn't even see a faint in that direction, a nod or an understanding

00:33:05 ◼   ► to the fact that the most important thing in the classroom has nothing to do with the

00:33:10 ◼   ► just there because they're there to sell you the technology and that's what I found.

00:33:14 ◼   ► That and my concern about the fact that their strategy doesn't seem to be changing made

00:33:18 ◼   ► me think that Apple is on the wrong track with its education strategy and that if they

00:33:25 ◼   ► continue to pursue it, they're not going to turn around their market share slide.

00:33:31 ◼   ► And also, like again, having two kids in school, it didn't make me think, "Boy, I wish my

00:33:36 ◼   ► kids had access to iPads and Apple laptops."

00:33:40 ◼   ► It just didn't, you know, like I don't have any desire for that at all for my kids.

00:33:44 ◼   ► I want my kids to, you know, learn and enjoy school and learn the, you know, the things

00:33:51 ◼   ► that they're supposed to learn, the social skills, like to have a good school experience.

00:33:55 ◼   ► I have no desires whatsoever about the technology they're using.

00:33:58 ◼   ► I don't care if they use any technology unless they're interested in technology or unless

00:34:02 ◼   ► they're taking a course in technology.

00:34:03 ◼   ► And even then, I don't care if they teach the kids Pascal, teach them C++, teach them

00:34:07 ◼   ► Scheme.

00:34:08 ◼   ► I don't care if they're learning Swift or iOS program or anything like that.

00:34:13 ◼   ► So I don't know.

00:34:14 ◼   ► Maybe I'm overly grumpy about this.

00:34:16 ◼   ► [laughs]

00:34:17 ◼   ► -No, I mean, I think you bring up a lot of really good points because, you know, I think

00:34:22 ◼   ► maybe one of the reasons this event kind of rubbed me the wrong way is similar to what

00:34:25 ◼   ► you were just saying about how it seems like Apple more just wants to like yell at us about

00:34:32 ◼   ► why they don't have to change much of anything, why their existing stuff can just be shoved

00:34:37 ◼   ► right in there and be a perfect fit.

00:34:39 ◼   ► And I think that over time, the compellingness

00:34:44 ◼   ► or the fit of what they're trying to put

00:34:47 ◼   ► into this category versus what these customers

00:34:50 ◼   ► actually need and want is diverging.

00:34:53 ◼   ► It's not getting closer over time,

00:34:55 ◼   ► it's getting worse over time.

00:34:56 ◼   ► Like, the way I see it from both reading

00:34:59 ◼   ► and listening to school workers who are also writers

00:35:04 ◼   ► in tech or podcasters, also from friends and family I know

00:35:08 ◼   ► who work in education, some of them teachers,

00:35:10 ◼   ► some of them administrators.

00:35:12 ◼   ► It seems like what schools ultimately want

00:35:15 ◼   ► is inexpensive, durable laptops,

00:35:18 ◼   ► and enterprise-style management tools and services

00:35:22 ◼   ► to back them, to make it easier to manage.

00:35:25 ◼   ► Apple seems to me like they're losing this

00:35:27 ◼   ► on three pretty major fronts.

00:35:30 ◼   ► Price is obviously a big one.

00:35:32 ◼   ► They are losing on price, not by as much as some people think if you look at iPads as

00:35:38 ◼   ► being the solution, if you look at laptops as being the solution, that they lose big.

00:35:42 ◼   ► They also seem to be losing with, you know, just kind of, this is kind of the wrong product,

00:35:46 ◼   ► I think.

00:35:47 ◼   ► And we have this argument a lot in our regular tech beat of is the iPad a good enough computer

00:35:52 ◼   ► for various people for various things.

00:35:55 ◼   ► And ultimately, I think while you could make some really nice marketing videos about how

00:36:00 ◼   ► how cool it would be if kids used iPads

00:36:02 ◼   ► to rediscover things like music and robots and stuff.

00:36:07 ◼   ► That's not what most kids need most of the time

00:36:09 ◼   ► in most classes.

00:36:10 ◼   ► What they mostly need is laptops.

00:36:13 ◼   ► And so what Apple is trying to sell the schools on is,

00:36:16 ◼   ► no, look, yes, our laptops are way too expensive

00:36:19 ◼   ► for what you're looking for,

00:36:21 ◼   ► so instead, although they still sell a lot of them anyway,

00:36:23 ◼   ► but instead, you should be looking at the iPad.

00:36:26 ◼   ► That's why we don't need to make our laptops any cheaper,

00:36:27 ◼   ► 'cause the future is the iPad.

00:36:29 ◼   ► and you can just bolt on all of these clunky,

00:36:32 ◼   ► expensive accessories that raise the price even further

00:36:35 ◼   ► because you're not gonna use that iPad at $329 or $299.

00:36:40 ◼   ► You're gonna have to add a case of some kind to protect it

00:36:43 ◼   ► because it's way too fragile to just give to kids naked.

00:36:45 ◼   ► You can't even give to adults naked.

00:36:47 ◼   ► So you gotta get some kind of case.

00:36:49 ◼   ► It's probably gonna want some kind of keyboard

00:36:51 ◼   ► for a lot of things it needs

00:36:52 ◼   ► or for standardized test requirements or things like that.

00:36:55 ◼   ► So that's why they have this Logitech case

00:36:56 ◼   ► that has this special keyboard and everything.

00:36:58 ◼   ► And so you have to add on all these accessories.

00:37:01 ◼   ► Now they want you to buy a pencil or the Logitech Crayon,

00:37:03 ◼   ► which is interesting, they want you to add on

00:37:05 ◼   ► even more stuff to it to make it into what you want.

00:37:08 ◼   ► All that drives up the price and the complexity

00:37:10 ◼   ► and the clunkiness of the solution.

00:37:12 ◼   ► So it's very possible, and I think likely,

00:37:15 ◼   ► that they're actually selling schools the wrong product.

00:37:17 ◼   ► What schools actually want is inexpensive, durable laptops.

00:37:21 ◼   ► And then the third problem, which I don't see them

00:37:24 ◼   ► probably ever fixing, is that if you talk to an administrator

00:37:28 ◼   ► to an administrator or a teacher who runs the Google G Suite stuff or to an IT manager

00:37:35 ◼   ► who runs the fleets of these things, the G Suite management tools are really good. It

00:37:42 ◼   ► is an entire enterprise management platform and all these web services with Google Docs

00:37:49 ◼   ► and all this stuff that's really good. Apple, I don't think, is ever going to do well in

00:37:56 ◼   ► in that kind of environment.

00:37:58 ◼   ► That's not in their DNA to make enterprise

00:38:00 ◼   ► fleet management things very, very well,

00:38:02 ◼   ► or to make cloud document platforms very well.

00:38:05 ◼   ► They try, but not very hard,

00:38:07 ◼   ► and it's never very competitive.

00:38:09 ◼   ► And when you compare, like, I wanted to,

00:38:12 ◼   ► I laughed so hard, they made a quick little remark

00:38:15 ◼   ► about how when the iPad, how it supports multiple users

00:38:19 ◼   ► only in a school environment, and the presenter said,

00:38:23 ◼   ► you can change users in under a minute.

00:38:26 ◼   ► (laughing)

00:38:27 ◼   ► - Wow.

00:38:28 ◼   ► - I was like, imagine if it took a minute

00:38:30 ◼   ► to switch users on a PC or a Mac?

00:38:33 ◼   ► - It wasn't even change users,

00:38:34 ◼   ► it was you could log out and be ready

00:38:36 ◼   ► for someone else to log in.

00:38:37 ◼   ► Like they were just, they were touting the log out time.

00:38:39 ◼   ► I think the log in time could potentially be worse,

00:38:41 ◼   ► 'cause it does, what it does under the cover

00:38:42 ◼   ► is it's not like, it's not like they're using

00:38:45 ◼   ► the multi-user features of the underlying operating system,

00:38:47 ◼   ► it's just like a single user iPad

00:38:49 ◼   ► that they swap in and out by shuffling stuff around.

00:38:51 ◼   ► It's not like multiple accounts on the Mac.

00:38:53 ◼   ► - They're like tearing down the entire user space,

00:38:55 ◼   ► tearing down all of Springboard,

00:38:56 ◼   ► swapping in various like directories and files

00:38:59 ◼   ► and then bringing the whole thing back up.

00:39:00 ◼   ► It's basically, it's even more complex than a reboot,

00:39:04 ◼   ► what they're doing.

00:39:05 ◼   ► (laughs)

00:39:06 ◼   ► 'Cause these devices are not made for this at all.

00:39:09 ◼   ► Like, you know, if you want that kind of thing,

00:39:11 ◼   ► you need networked PCs and Macs.

00:39:13 ◼   ► Like, iPads are so not made for multi-user

00:39:16 ◼   ► and they're not willing to change iOS

00:39:18 ◼   ► in major ways to fix that.

00:39:19 ◼   ► They're only willing to do like,

00:39:20 ◼   ► this kind of like minor lip service stuff.

00:39:22 ◼   ► So if you look at Apple Education, their history,

00:39:26 ◼   ► they were always kind of like the fancy, expensive ones

00:39:30 ◼   ► that you'd have a few of in the schools.

00:39:32 ◼   ► I think very, I was in school long before

00:39:34 ◼   ► any kind of one-to-one program,

00:39:35 ◼   ► so maybe that's different now.

00:39:36 ◼   ► But Apple did well when it was Macs only,

00:39:41 ◼   ► when they weren't trying to split

00:39:42 ◼   ► their consumer computing ideal

00:39:45 ◼   ► into these two very different platforms of Mac and iPad.

00:39:48 ◼   ► so when there's just one platform for them to focus on,

00:39:51 ◼   ► and in a world where that platform

00:39:53 ◼   ► could basically be an island.

00:39:55 ◼   ► It was like, here is a really nice desktop

00:39:57 ◼   ► that you can use to edit videos

00:39:59 ◼   ► and do desktop publishing on.

00:40:00 ◼   ► They were really good at that.

00:40:02 ◼   ► But today, you have large fleets of these

00:40:07 ◼   ► always-networked, strongly web services-based

00:40:10 ◼   ► application platforms and enterprise management tools.

00:40:14 ◼   ► And Apple just doesn't do that nearly as well

00:40:17 ◼   ► or nearly as competitively as Google and Microsoft

00:40:21 ◼   ► and other PC vendors that have tools for schools and stuff.

00:40:26 ◼   ► I don't see that really ever changing.

00:40:28 ◼   ► Apple is not that good at web services,

00:40:30 ◼   ► they're not that good at enterprise management tools.

00:40:33 ◼   ► In all the other areas of their business,

00:40:35 ◼   ► they're actually pulling away from that.

00:40:37 ◼   ► And I also even question, back in the olden days,

00:40:43 ◼   ► there was always that thing,

00:40:45 ◼   ► no one gets fired for buying IBM.

00:40:47 ◼   ► If you're an IT administrator at a school,

00:40:52 ◼   ► and you are tasked with making this kind of decision

00:40:55 ◼   ► of do you invest heavily in the Apple platform

00:40:58 ◼   ► or in G Suite, would you trust knowing today's Apple,

00:41:03 ◼   ► knowing how they do services,

00:41:05 ◼   ► how they maintain applications over time,

00:41:10 ◼   ► would you trust building your school out

00:41:12 ◼   ► on like class kit and the classroom or school work,

00:41:15 ◼   ► whatever it's called, like all that stuff,

00:41:17 ◼   ► would you trust that to actually be not only bug free

00:41:20 ◼   ► when it ships not today,

00:41:22 ◼   ► when it ships sometime in the future,

00:41:23 ◼   ► would you trust that to be stable enough?

00:41:25 ◼   ► And more importantly, would you trust that to be maintained

00:41:29 ◼   ► and supported over a reasonable amount of time?

00:41:32 ◼   ► I think that's a huge risk for an IT administrator to take.

00:41:35 ◼   ► I think that's way too high of a risk.

00:41:37 ◼   ► Knowing the way Apple does things these days

00:41:39 ◼   ► and knowing how seemingly stable and already well-developed

00:41:44 ◼   ► and well-established the competing platforms are

00:41:47 ◼   ► in these regards, I don't see this being

00:41:50 ◼   ► a really good decision for an IT administrator

00:41:52 ◼   ► pretty much anywhere.

00:41:53 ◼   ► - That gets me back to my earlier point.

00:41:56 ◼   ► Like this is enterprise software for schools.

00:41:59 ◼   ► Like enterprise software, and my old definition

00:42:01 ◼   ► is like software where the person you have to sell it to

00:42:03 ◼   ► is not the person who has to use it.

00:42:04 ◼   ► And there's two angles in that.

00:42:06 ◼   ► The one we already talked about,

00:42:07 ◼   ► which is like management of large devices in a world where you can actually conceive

00:42:12 ◼   ► of one-to-one programs where every student gets one device. Like that was not even a

00:42:15 ◼   ► twinkle in anyone's eye when I was in school. It was like you had a computer lab with like

00:42:18 ◼   ► six computers in it for the whole school. And they're all Apple IIs, by the way, not

00:42:22 ◼   ► Macs. But that enterprise management thing, like some of the people who watch this event

00:42:27 ◼   ► I could see on Twitter were from that camp saying, "Okay, Apple, I have a problem. My

00:42:31 ◼   ► problem is I have lots of students, I have lots of devices, and dealing with them is

00:42:35 ◼   ► You've got to keep track of them all.

00:42:37 ◼   ► You've got to keep them all up to date.

00:42:38 ◼   ► You've got to manage them all.

00:42:39 ◼   ► Tell me, Appa, how you're going to make my job as an enterprise school administrator

00:42:43 ◼   ► easy.

00:42:44 ◼   ► That is enterprise software in both the good and bad senses, and I tend to look at the

00:42:48 ◼   ► bad sense.

00:42:49 ◼   ► The bad sense is, say Apple or Google or anybody makes these school administrators' lives easier

00:42:56 ◼   ► and gives them an easy way to manage large fleets of devices.

00:42:59 ◼   ► I as a parent and as a general citizen interested in the education of the country thinks, "Okay,

00:43:05 ◼   ► But does every student having devices make their education better?

00:43:10 ◼   ► I don't care how easy it is for you, school administrator, to manage the devices.

00:43:15 ◼   ► I understand that's how they sell it to you.

00:43:16 ◼   ► I understand that's why you're choosing, because you want something that can do all the things

00:43:19 ◼   ► you want it to hook into your back-end system that keeps track of all your students.

00:43:24 ◼   ► But I'm not that interested in how easy it is for you to do your job.

00:43:27 ◼   ► The whole point of the school is education.

00:43:30 ◼   ► Is it better for the kids for everyone to have these devices?

00:43:35 ◼   ► Does the device that the kids get, is there a difference to them or is there no difference?

00:43:39 ◼   ► Like, do the kids care if they have a Chromebook or the Apple stuff?

00:43:42 ◼   ► Does it make a difference to their education?

00:43:44 ◼   ► Like, at all?

00:43:45 ◼   ► Do they, you know, so that's my question.

00:43:47 ◼   ► And the second thing is that I worry about is like, the other constituency that is not

00:43:54 ◼   ► the students that Apple appeals to, just in general, but in education is, regardless of

00:44:02 ◼   ► of how hard it is to manage the devices, right? I feel like there is still, and maybe this

00:44:09 ◼   ► has actually increased in the recent decade, some cachet for a school to say, "All our

00:44:16 ◼   ► kids have iPads or have MacBook Airs," going back a little bit in time, or have Apple devices

00:44:22 ◼   ► that if someone was touring a school, thinking of buying a house in the neighborhood and

00:44:29 ◼   ► this is the neighborhood school your kid would go to, or if it's a private school or whatever,

00:44:32 ◼   ► and you have Apple hardware everywhere,

00:44:34 ◼   ► that makes the school seem better,

00:44:36 ◼   ► because Apple, thanks to its marketing

00:44:38 ◼   ► and the general high quality of its products

00:44:40 ◼   ► in the consumer realm, is seen as a premium brand

00:44:42 ◼   ► and as like, it's fancy, right?

00:44:46 ◼   ► And so the parents go, "Ooh, all the kids here have iPads."

00:44:48 ◼   ► Again, do the parents actually think,

00:44:51 ◼   ► if they sat down and think about,

00:44:52 ◼   ► "Well, are iPads going to make

00:44:54 ◼   ► my child's school experience better

00:44:57 ◼   ► than having one more teacher

00:44:59 ◼   ► and making the class sizes smaller?

00:45:00 ◼   ► Are iPads gonna make my kids' educational experience better

00:45:04 ◼   ► than if they had Chromebooks?

00:45:06 ◼   ► They're not even thinking that.

00:45:08 ◼   ► They're just thinking, all the kids in this school,

00:45:10 ◼   ► every school has an iBook, right?

00:45:11 ◼   ► That's why people are making that stampede

00:45:13 ◼   ► for the $50 iBooks, because Apple, you know,

00:45:15 ◼   ► makes fancy, nice devices

00:45:16 ◼   ► that most people usually can't afford.

00:45:18 ◼   ► And if you can suddenly get them for 50 bucks,

00:45:20 ◼   ► it's like, there's a rush on that

00:45:22 ◼   ► because there is a perceived value,

00:45:25 ◼   ► a perceived coolness, cache, marketing value, whatever,

00:45:28 ◼   ► like, status for Apple devices.

00:45:30 ◼   ► So if you can get them cheap, all of a sudden,

00:45:32 ◼   ► people wanna get them, 'cause they want a piece of that.

00:45:34 ◼   ► And that bothers me in education too,

00:45:36 ◼   ► because I don't wanna pick schools

00:45:37 ◼   ► based on how fancy the hardware is.

00:45:40 ◼   ► It's like picking schools based on like,

00:45:41 ◼   ► you know, mahogany railings on the stairs.

00:45:45 ◼   ► I mean, there is something to be said for schools

00:45:47 ◼   ► that look fancy and feel nice and everything,

00:45:49 ◼   ► but as far as education goes, like,

00:45:52 ◼   ► do the kids care that the railings are mahogany?

00:45:54 ◼   ► Like, beyond a minimum level of school upkeep

00:45:57 ◼   ► and temperature control and safety and not pumping carbon monoxide into the building

00:46:02 ◼   ► because the furnace is old.

00:46:03 ◼   ► Obviously they can get bad, but once you get into the competent realm, I'm much less interested

00:46:09 ◼   ► in that stuff than I am about all the other much more important aspects of the school.

00:46:16 ◼   ► Even if Apple was massive...

00:46:18 ◼   ► Take Google.

00:46:19 ◼   ► Google seems to be very successful at appealing to people who are enterprise administrators,

00:46:22 ◼   ► but I continue to wonder.

00:46:24 ◼   ► In a school where the enterprise administrator is kind of like in a workplace where the enterprise

00:46:27 ◼   ► administrators, their job is awesome and they love their vendor. Do their end users love

00:46:32 ◼   ► the product? Do the teachers love the product? Do the students love the product? Does it

00:46:35 ◼   ► actually make their education better? I don't know. I have a real crisis of faith about

00:46:39 ◼   ► technology and education, I guess. So it feels to me, having not actually watched this particular

00:46:46 ◼   ► event, but based on all of the recaps that I've read, it feels to me like this was,

00:46:53 ◼   ► and I forget which one of you said I think it was Marco, this was a pep rally for Apple,

00:46:58 ◼   ► but it was Apple trying to say, "Hey, you should consider us despite us." In other words,

00:47:07 ◼   ► you know, there's so many things that we don't do the way you want us to do it,

00:47:11 ◼   ► but you know what? There's some other stuff that's really cool. And I guess there's a couple of ways

00:47:18 ◼   ► to look at that, right? Like you could look at that as Apple is obnoxious and follow themselves

00:47:22 ◼   ► and oh, of course, we all we're so fancy and look at us and our fancy iPads and our AR and blah,

00:47:28 ◼   ► but I don't really take it that way at all. I took it as, Hey, look, we aspire, we genuinely aspire

00:47:35 ◼   ► to make a, a, a engaging, interesting, enlightening and, and diverse in terms of experienced

00:47:46 ◼   ► educational like

00:47:48 ◼   ► Not event, but you know we want education to be interesting basically and and here's a way that we are several ways that we are

00:47:56 ◼   ► enabling that in making education interesting and

00:47:59 ◼   ► making the education part a

00:48:02 ◼   ► Relatively

00:48:05 ◼   ► Frictionless now the penalty is that the poor school administrator is going to pay for that tenfold

00:48:10 ◼   ► But for the teacher and the student if you believe what apples if you buy what Apple selling literally and figuratively then it's

00:48:18 ◼   ► reasonably frictionless, right

00:48:20 ◼   ► So you should consider this because we are like the aspirational version of education that all of us really want aren't we?

00:48:26 ◼   ► you should really look at us despite the fact that we're way too expensive and way too difficult to work with and

00:48:32 ◼   ► That's how I took the event again not having seen it. I took it as look we're here, you know knock knock knock

00:48:40 ◼   ► "Knock, we're here and we do cool stuff

00:48:43 ◼   ► "and if you really wanna get your kids engaged,

00:48:46 ◼   ► "maybe try us 'cause no kid today wants a laptop anymore.

00:48:51 ◼   ► "I mean, maybe that's what they need."

00:48:52 ◼   ► I mean, I know you said that earlier, Mark,

00:48:53 ◼   ► although I challenge, I'm not entirely sure why.

00:48:56 ◼   ► I mean, my gut says, "Yeah, of course they need laptops,"

00:48:58 ◼   ► but then I ask myself, "Well, why?"

00:49:01 ◼   ► And other than a keyboard, I don't have a good answer.

00:49:03 ◼   ► And I'm not here to have that argument

00:49:05 ◼   ► at this particular moment.

00:49:06 ◼   ► It doesn't really matter in the grand scheme of things,

00:49:08 ◼   ► but certainly-- - Everyone says iPads

00:49:09 ◼   ► like everyone's gonna be doing tablets in the future and because my kid loves tablets

00:49:13 ◼   ► and doesn't know what a laptop is and it's like, "Okay, wait till your kid is a little

00:49:16 ◼   ► bit older." And then like, you know, how many kids get to the end of high school without

00:49:19 ◼   ► having or wanting a laptop?

00:49:21 ◼   ► Yeah, yeah. And I agree with you. But all I'm saying is there's the obnoxious Apple

00:49:26 ◼   ► hubris way of looking at this, which is we are so much better than everyone else because

00:49:31 ◼   ► look at how cool we are. And then there's the more humble, "Hey man, we're cool too,

00:49:36 ◼   ► Like, check us out. We're worth at least considering. And that's how I took the event.

00:49:41 ◼   ► But in the end of the day, it all comes--well, not all, but generally speaking, and this is what

00:49:46 ◼   ► Saplinsky and I were kind of going back and forth about,

00:49:48 ◼   ► in general, it all comes down to money, and it's just too damn expensive.

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00:51:26 ◼   ► (upbeat music)

00:51:29 ◼   ► - Now, we haven't really talked about

00:51:32 ◼   ► the actual product announcement that happened

00:51:35 ◼   ► during this event.

00:51:36 ◼   ► - Product. - So we should,

00:51:38 ◼   ► yeah, the product. (laughing)

00:51:40 ◼   ► Which, I mean, to be fair, I don't think anyone

00:51:43 ◼   ► should have really expected more than this.

00:51:45 ◼   ► I think we were all, myself included,

00:51:47 ◼   ► aspirationally hoping for more than just a new iPad,

00:51:50 ◼   ► but realistically, this is what the tea leaves were showing.

00:51:53 ◼   ► So Marco, tell us about this new iPad.

00:51:57 ◼   ► - So it is updated guts for the actually interesting one

00:52:02 ◼   ► that they released last year without an event at all.

00:52:06 ◼   ► So last spring, about a year ago,

00:52:08 ◼   ► they released the inexpensive 9.7-inch iPad for $329,

00:52:12 ◼   ► built with old parts, basically, to make it cheaper.

00:52:16 ◼   ► (laughing)

00:52:17 ◼   ► And it's kinda like the way the iPhone SE

00:52:20 ◼   ► is kinda like built with old parts on the iPhone end

00:52:22 ◼   ► to make that cheaper, it's basically the iPad SE.

00:52:26 ◼   ► They basically kinda remade the iPad Air 1

00:52:30 ◼   ► with modern guts, so it doesn't have some of the niceties.

00:52:33 ◼   ► And then, so this, the news now is that they have now

00:52:37 ◼   ► updated that model, and by the way, I think that model

00:52:39 ◼   ► is almost single-handedly responsible

00:52:42 ◼   ► for the turnaround in iPad sales.

00:52:45 ◼   ► I think the numbers show from the analysts and stuff

00:52:47 ◼   ► that iPad sales went up starting with this model

00:52:50 ◼   ► because it turns out when you drop the price

00:52:54 ◼   ► of the entry level model to a lineup,

00:52:56 ◼   ► a lot more people wanna buy it.

00:52:57 ◼   ► so they could learn a lot from the laptop line.

00:53:00 ◼   ► Anyway.

00:53:01 ◼   ► - Whoever's point it was before, kids do love iPads.

00:53:03 ◼   ► - Oh yeah.

00:53:04 ◼   ► - Like very young kids all the way up.

00:53:05 ◼   ► So there was always an appetite, a desire for iPads,

00:53:09 ◼   ► but you're not gonna buy a $600 iPad for a toddler,

00:53:12 ◼   ► so you buy a $300 one,

00:53:15 ◼   ► starts to get into the realm of possibility.

00:53:17 ◼   ► - Yeah, exactly.

00:53:17 ◼   ► So anyway, so they introduced this lower price point

00:53:21 ◼   ► for the entry level iPad last year,

00:53:23 ◼   ► and it sold very well,

00:53:24 ◼   ► and then now they've updated it with newer components.

00:53:28 ◼   ► It is now roughly the guts of an iPhone 7

00:53:31 ◼   ► in most important ways.

00:53:34 ◼   ► Just in like an iPad size case with an iPad size screen.

00:53:40 ◼   ► It is not the nicest screen.

00:53:41 ◼   ► It's basically like an iPad Air 1 kind of screen,

00:53:45 ◼   ► so it doesn't have the close lamination

00:53:47 ◼   ► of the screen to the glass.

00:53:48 ◼   ► There's like a small visible gap.

00:53:50 ◼   ► Although, I mean, it's not that big.

00:53:52 ◼   ► - Oh, on that topic, I would love to know

00:53:54 ◼   ► if someone knows that that increases repairability,

00:53:56 ◼   ► 'cause that's all I could think of.

00:53:57 ◼   ► It's like, why don't they use laminate screen?

00:53:58 ◼   ► Maybe it's because if students drop it,

00:54:00 ◼   ► they can replace the top glass

00:54:01 ◼   ► without replacing the screen,

00:54:02 ◼   ► or maybe I'm wrong about that.

00:54:03 ◼   ► So if someone at the Genius Bar let us know.

00:54:06 ◼   ► - That's an interesting thought.

00:54:07 ◼   ► I mean, I figured it was just for cost,

00:54:08 ◼   ► and for segmentation, 'cause see,

00:54:10 ◼   ► I think one of the issues I have with this,

00:54:11 ◼   ► so anyway, if you go down the specs,

00:54:13 ◼   ► there's not a lot of differences

00:54:16 ◼   ► between this and the 10.5 inch iPad Pro.

00:54:19 ◼   ► There are some, and they might be big for you,

00:54:22 ◼   ► But it's actually not hugely different.

00:54:26 ◼   ► And it's half the price of the iPad Pro.

00:54:29 ◼   ► So there are some differences,

00:54:31 ◼   ► and again, they may matter to you.

00:54:34 ◼   ► As our friend Federico Fattucci pointed out,

00:54:37 ◼   ► the new cheap iPad does not have the promotion,

00:54:40 ◼   ► 120 hertz refresh rate,

00:54:42 ◼   ► does not have the P3 wide color, True Tone,

00:54:45 ◼   ► a smart connector for the keyboard,

00:54:47 ◼   ► and then the camera is not as good.

00:54:49 ◼   ► It does not have image stabilization,

00:54:51 ◼   ► not shoot 4K video and it only has first generation touch ID.

00:54:55 ◼   ► It does now support the Apple Pencil, which is interesting.

00:54:58 ◼   ► I don't know how much that's going to matter in practice, at least not for schools.

00:55:05 ◼   ► I can't imagine…

00:55:06 ◼   ► >> It's a good question.

00:55:07 ◼   ► Apple pushing that so hard, by the way, like the pencil support.

00:55:10 ◼   ► Every one of the slides, the whole visual theme of the show was things drawn with the

00:55:14 ◼   ► Apple Pencil.

00:55:15 ◼   ► Every slide, every, like, it was very consistent, beautiful drawings, as always with Apple,

00:55:19 ◼   ► beautiful presentation.

00:55:21 ◼   ► They were leaning heavily on the Pencil.

00:55:22 ◼   ► But the Pencil, of course, is a hundred extra dollars.

00:55:25 ◼   ► That's big, you know, that's why people talk about the iPads.

00:55:27 ◼   ► You have the iPad, then you got 50 to $100 for a case, $100 for the Pencil, and the crayon

00:55:32 ◼   ► was half the price, but it doesn't do pressure,

00:55:35 ◼   ► it just does tilt and touch.

00:55:38 ◼   ► - The Logitech Crayon is interesting.

00:55:39 ◼   ► It's like, if they would sell that separately

00:55:42 ◼   ► and if it would work with regular iPads, it doesn't.

00:55:45 ◼   ► So it only works with this one.

00:55:48 ◼   ► It doesn't work with the iPad Pros.

00:55:50 ◼   ► And it is only sold through the education channel.

00:55:53 ◼   ► So like you can't just go on Apple.com and order one.

00:55:56 ◼   ► Which is unfortunate because it's like Logitech's device

00:56:01 ◼   ► that is really an Apple Pencil inside,

00:56:04 ◼   ► that has the same benefits as the Apple Pencil,

00:56:05 ◼   ► except for it does not have pressure sensitivity.

00:56:08 ◼   ► But I know a lot of people who would buy that,

00:56:10 ◼   ► and it's like a little bit more ergonomic,

00:56:12 ◼   ► it has a button, like it's actually kind of better

00:56:15 ◼   ► in some ways, I mean, you know,

00:56:17 ◼   ► it doesn't look as nice and everything,

00:56:18 ◼   ► but honestly, I would probably have bought one of those

00:56:20 ◼   ► if it worked on the iPad Pro.

00:56:21 ◼   ► - But people can't use it for art

00:56:23 ◼   ► without the pressure sensitivity though.

00:56:24 ◼   ► Like I continue to think that the Apple Pencil,

00:56:26 ◼   ► I mean, the Apple Pencil is great and all,

00:56:27 ◼   ► but I think it's just too expensive.

00:56:29 ◼   ► Like maybe for the Pro models, it's like who cares,

00:56:31 ◼   ► but I really wish there was a pencil for less than $100.

00:56:36 ◼   ► - Yeah, and it really does have a few

00:56:38 ◼   ► pretty annoying design flaws.

00:56:40 ◼   ► Mike made the case on connected this past week

00:56:44 ◼   ► that we all made fun of it how you can charge it

00:56:46 ◼   ► by sticking it up the butt of the iPad

00:56:48 ◼   ► and it looks really funny,

00:56:49 ◼   ► but he made the case that that's actually a good thing

00:56:53 ◼   ► in practice, and that's fine.

00:56:55 ◼   ► I think the Apple Pencil has lots of design problems.

00:56:57 ◼   ► It has the issue of there's nothing to grip on it,

00:57:01 ◼   ► It is a little bit too big and a little bit too heavy.

00:57:05 ◼   ► The battery life is not good enough

00:57:07 ◼   ► and because there is no power switch,

00:57:09 ◼   ► the battery is constantly draining itself

00:57:12 ◼   ► if you're carrying it in a bag and it's in motion

00:57:14 ◼   ► or using the iPad without using the pencil.

00:57:16 ◼   ► And of course there's nowhere to put it on the iPad

00:57:18 ◼   ► or around the iPad.

00:57:20 ◼   ► There's lots of problems that the pencil has.

00:57:22 ◼   ► The Logitech Crayon solves some of those

00:57:24 ◼   ► and it's kind of a shame that you have to rely on,

00:57:27 ◼   ► that Apple doesn't stoop down to the level

00:57:31 ◼   ► making something ergonomic with a button on it,

00:57:33 ◼   ► even though that would actually make it a better product

00:57:35 ◼   ► in some ways, but anyway.

00:57:36 ◼   ► Going back to this iPad, this iPad's a really good deal.

00:57:40 ◼   ► Like, you're getting a lot for this,

00:57:43 ◼   ► and if anything, I think it really highlights

00:57:47 ◼   ► how incredibly expensive the iPad Pro is

00:57:50 ◼   ► for what you're getting there.

00:57:51 ◼   ► Like, to get a decently equipped one of these,

00:57:53 ◼   ► which we'll get to in a little while,

00:57:55 ◼   ► you know, you're looking at 400 bucks,

00:57:57 ◼   ► you know, once you throw in some accessories, maybe more,

00:57:59 ◼   ► with the iPad Pro, you're looking at about 800.

00:58:01 ◼   ► And it's really, you're getting, for double the price,

00:58:06 ◼   ► you're getting a nicer and slightly larger screen,

00:58:11 ◼   ► the smart connector, which gives you the opportunity

00:58:15 ◼   ► to spend another $200 on the keyboard,

00:58:17 ◼   ► and a little bit better camera,

00:58:18 ◼   ► which a lot of people don't use

00:58:19 ◼   ► or don't care about on the iPad.

00:58:21 ◼   ► So it's like, the difference that you're getting is,

00:58:24 ◼   ► and it's not, I don't think it's a twice the price difference

00:58:28 ◼   ► to go from this to the iPad Pro.

00:58:31 ◼   ► And again, this is only gonna be for a few months

00:58:33 ◼   ► because presumably in June, they're probably going

00:58:35 ◼   ► to update the iPad Pro to make it even better.

00:58:38 ◼   ► But I do think this kind of illustrates

00:58:41 ◼   ► quite how expensive the iPad Pro is

00:58:45 ◼   ► compared to how expensive it needs to be.

00:58:48 ◼   ► 'Cause this shows what they can do at 329.

00:58:51 ◼   ► - This iPad feels a little bit chintzy to me, though.

00:58:54 ◼   ► I understand it's gotta be a cut-down model.

00:58:56 ◼   ► It makes sense to have it in the product line.

00:58:58 ◼   ► think they should have a cheap iPad, setting aside education, just for regular people,

00:59:03 ◼   ► right?

00:59:04 ◼   ► But some of the cheaping out, like I've complained about this before, I really wish Apple would

00:59:09 ◼   ► make less expensive products that were not merely old parts or old, like a purpose-built

00:59:19 ◼   ► product to hit a much lower price point.

00:59:23 ◼   ► In this case, the one that really burns me is Touch ID, it doesn't have second-gen Touch

00:59:27 ◼   ► ID because that just feels like you're being it's like come on like I

00:59:31 ◼   ► understand I understand I don't need p3 color gamut I don't need promotion like

00:59:35 ◼   ► true tone yeah maybe smart connector okay maybe that's like a feature that

00:59:39 ◼   ► schools don't want or whatever camera sure by all means cheap out but the

00:59:42 ◼   ► touch ID you unlock it like it just it just it's like everything like we can't

00:59:47 ◼   ► have we can't have any nice things it's like it is if Apple was selling cheaper

00:59:51 ◼   ► imagine Apple sold lots of Macs if they were selling cheaper Macs with USB 2 in

00:59:55 ◼   ► them still, right? And it would be like, "Come on, at a certain point USB 2.0, isn't it more

00:59:59 ◼   ► expensive for you than USB 3.0?" Like, just, I know it's not quite the same thing, but

01:00:04 ◼   ► --

01:00:05 ◼   ► The USB-C cable that comes with all the MacBook Pros is a USB 2.0 cable.

01:00:07 ◼   ► Yeah, I just feel like you have to make the product not feel like you're getting second

01:00:14 ◼   ► class in everything. I feel like -- and this is a thing that Steve Jobs used to do, and

01:00:18 ◼   ► my impression from the outside is that basically through sheer force of will, because it's

01:00:22 ◼   ► it's what he wanted, is periodically it would update the whole line and it would expunge

01:00:27 ◼   ► some lesser thing from the entire line top to bottom. Even the cheapest one wouldn't

01:00:31 ◼   ► have things that Steve Jobs no longer likes. He'd love to refresh the whole line and say

01:00:35 ◼   ► "It's all gone." In the Tim Cook era, refreshing the whole line pretty much never happens.

01:00:41 ◼   ► You get new things at the top, but the middle and bottom is just like, it's like hand-me-downs

01:00:47 ◼   ► and secondhand stuff and just hanging out down there with yesterday's technology. You

01:00:51 ◼   ► We never get the clean sweep that you go through that says, "We have a whole new line of products

01:00:54 ◼   ► from super low price to super high price, and all of them," we talked about this before,

01:00:58 ◼   ► "look like a family and are brought up to some minimum standard."

01:01:02 ◼   ► So that second-gen Touch ID should be everywhere by now.

01:01:06 ◼   ► You should not have first-gen Touch ID.

01:01:07 ◼   ► It should be a relic of the past, but it's like, "Can we save an extra $1.50?"

01:01:11 ◼   ► Yes, we can keep shipping the old one.

01:01:13 ◼   ► No, don't keep shipping the old one.

01:01:17 ◼   ► the lowest end Apple product, I feel like has to be brought along with all the other

01:01:22 ◼   ► tech at some minimum level. I don't know. The product annoys me a little bit. I do agree

01:01:29 ◼   ► that it's great that it's there. It's much better than not having it at all, but I'm

01:01:33 ◼   ► not going to like it.

01:01:34 ◼   ► Tim Cook has no minimum standard. That's like if you look at, you know, you said like raise

01:01:39 ◼   ► everything to a minimum standard. He has no minimum. He will sell the oldest, lowest end

01:01:46 ◼   ► parts forever as long as there's still money to be made there.

01:01:52 ◼   ► I think if Apple was truly a premium company, if they really wanted that quality, and honestly,

01:01:57 ◼   ► and I don't say this often, if Steve was still there, I do not think they would be selling

01:02:02 ◼   ► anything today with a spinning disk or a non-retina screen.

01:02:06 ◼   ► - Yeah, as a product guy, as Steve so much was, and I attribute it to him because he

01:02:12 ◼   ► just had the last say in so many things. Once you have the new thing, you don't want anyone

01:02:17 ◼   ► to have the old thing anymore. Obviously price is a factor and you can't just make everyone

01:02:21 ◼   ► retina overnight, but once you see a retina screen, God, can you look at a non-retina

01:02:25 ◼   ► screen anymore? And as soon as that's feasible price-wise, you want to put that in everything.

01:02:30 ◼   ► Same thing with second-gen Touch ID. First-gen Touch ID, yeah, it's our first cut at it,

01:02:34 ◼   ► but once we get the second-gen one and the price comes down, once it gets close enough,

01:02:37 ◼   ► it's time to refresh the whole line and forget about first-gen Touch ID. You're never going

01:02:40 ◼   ► to see that in an Apple product again, everything is second gen. Just because you feel like

01:02:46 ◼   ► you want everyone to have your new thing. And yet, Tim does not seem to have that instinct.

01:02:51 ◼   ► He feels no kind of, I'm not going to say embarrassment, it's not shame or embarrassment,

01:02:57 ◼   ► it's too much. It's more like just when you make a new thing, you want everyone to see

01:03:02 ◼   ► the best thing that you have to offer. And again, obviously price comes into it. Everyone

01:03:05 ◼   ► can't get a P3 screen, everyone can't get ProMotion, right? But there's the trickle-down

01:03:09 ◼   ► effect.

01:03:10 ◼   ► And a product person would be like, "Boy, I can't wait until it's financially feasible

01:03:13 ◼   ► for me to offer P3 displays on all our products.

01:03:16 ◼   ► When is that going to happen?

01:03:17 ◼   ► Give me a timeline.

01:03:18 ◼   ► Five years from now or whatever, let's go for that because that will be a milestone.

01:03:22 ◼   ► Like we will have raised the bar on all of our products."

01:03:24 ◼   ► And Tim Cook is like, "I don't care if that ever happens.

01:03:26 ◼   ► Keep shipping the TN display on the MacBook Air with giant pixels and terrible color reproduction

01:03:31 ◼   ► as long as people buy it."

01:03:32 ◼   ► And that's not…

01:03:33 ◼   ► I don't like that.

01:03:34 ◼   ► This is a good time to bring up another point that we had in the notes here, which is that

01:03:38 ◼   ► Apple's still selling the iPad Mini 4 for $70 more

01:03:43 ◼   ► than this new iPad.

01:03:45 ◼   ► It has an A8. (laughs)

01:03:47 ◼   ► - As opposed to an A10.

01:03:48 ◼   ► (laughing)

01:03:51 ◼   ► - And yep, still selling it.

01:03:53 ◼   ► No end in sight and also no replacement in sight

01:03:56 ◼   ► for that product, even though I think people would buy it.

01:03:59 ◼   ► But--

01:04:00 ◼   ► - It's got an A8, no Apple Pencil support,

01:04:01 ◼   ► and a smaller display and it's $70 more.

01:04:03 ◼   ► This is another, this is an article from The Verge,

01:04:05 ◼   ► by the way, and this is another example

01:04:07 ◼   ► of Apple's product lines not being coherent.

01:04:10 ◼   ► Lay out all the iPads before me and explain to me

01:04:13 ◼   ► what the progression is through your line,

01:04:15 ◼   ► or what the use cases are.

01:04:17 ◼   ► And then you get to the iPad mini before you,

01:04:18 ◼   ► be like, "Mm, this is like for people

01:04:21 ◼   ► who want something smaller,

01:04:23 ◼   ► but want it to be two generations

01:04:24 ◼   ► behind our least expensive one and have no pencil support,

01:04:27 ◼   ► and I don't know."

01:04:28 ◼   ► Like, I mean, maybe they were in an in-between period,

01:04:30 ◼   ► but we used to say that in the beginning,

01:04:31 ◼   ► like, "Oh, this line is in a transition," right?

01:04:33 ◼   ► But now I feel like we have enough time to say,

01:04:36 ◼   ► all the lines are constantly in transition. They never get to their destination. They

01:04:40 ◼   ► never get to the point where there is a line that makes sense and that has good products

01:04:45 ◼   ► at all price points. It's always just this long tail of the residue of yesteryear falling

01:04:51 ◼   ► off the product line, or not falling off as the case may be.

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01:05:30 ◼   ► All their suitcases are made with premium

01:05:32 ◼   ► German polycarbonate that's very lightweight

01:05:34 ◼   ► and it bends when it gets impacted so it doesn't break.

01:05:38 ◼   ► The interior features a patent pending compression system.

01:05:41 ◼   ► I love compression suitcases, they really, really help

01:05:43 ◼   ► and you have to get a little bit more in there.

01:05:45 ◼   ► They have four spinner wheels and this is really nice.

01:05:48 ◼   ► If you've never used a four wheel suitcase,

01:05:50 ◼   ► the way it handles is so nice,

01:05:52 ◼   ► especially for the larger ones.

01:05:53 ◼   ► I very much like those.

01:05:55 ◼   ► There's a TSA approved combination lock.

01:05:57 ◼   ► They also have a removable washable laundry bag

01:05:59 ◼   ► so you can keep your dirty clothes separate

01:06:01 ◼   ► from your clean ones as you travel,

01:06:02 ◼   ► and then when you get home, you just pop it out

01:06:04 ◼   ► and dump it in the laundry, it's wonderful.

01:06:06 ◼   ► And the carry-ons, you might have heard about this,

01:06:08 ◼   ► the carry-ons have built-in batteries,

01:06:11 ◼   ► and they can charge any USB devices.

01:06:13 ◼   ► So you can be charging your phone

01:06:14 ◼   ► while you're sitting at the gate waiting for the plane,

01:06:17 ◼   ► and that way the whole flight, you got a full phone.

01:06:18 ◼   ► It's wonderful.

01:06:20 ◼   ► They also have new add-ons now, they have packing cubes,

01:06:22 ◼   ► which I've recently gotten into,

01:06:23 ◼   ► and packing cubes, if you don't know,

01:06:25 ◼   ► they're surprisingly useful, they're really good,

01:06:27 ◼   ► give 'em a shot.

01:06:28 ◼   ► Away also offers garment sleeves,

01:06:30 ◼   ► and all sorts of wonderful other accessories for traveling.

01:06:33 ◼   ► All this is protected by a lifetime warranty.

01:06:35 ◼   ► If anything breaks, they will fix or replace it

01:06:37 ◼   ► for you for life.

01:06:39 ◼   ► And they have a 100 day trial.

01:06:41 ◼   ► You can try their suitcases.

01:06:43 ◼   ► You can even travel with them, of course.

01:06:44 ◼   ► But how else would you try them?

01:06:45 ◼   ► You can travel with them for 100 days.

01:06:47 ◼   ► If you don't like it, you can return it for a full refund,

01:06:49 ◼   ► no questions asked.

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01:06:52 ◼   ► on any Away order within the continental US.

01:06:54 ◼   ► So check out today awaytravel.com/atp

01:06:59 ◼   ► and use promo code ATP during checkout for $20 off your suitcase.

01:07:03 ◼   ► Once again, for $20 off, awaytravel.com/ATP, promo code ATP.

01:07:08 ◼   ► Thank you so much to Away for sponsoring our show.

01:07:11 ◼   ► All right, let's move on and do some Ask ATP, shall we?

01:07:18 ◼   ► Let's start with Chris O'Riebo, who asks, "Which Apple product, when purchased from

01:07:22 ◼   ► Apple, including refurbished and clearance, provides the most value or functionality per

01:07:26 ◼   ► dollar?"

01:07:27 ◼   ► biggest bang for your buck? I don't have a good answer for this. I do. I do. Okay, good. Well,

01:07:36 ◼   ► we will get to you momentarily. My first, which is not good, is whatever the best iPhone is you can

01:07:46 ◼   ► buy. Because given all of the things that you can do with your phone and how amazing your phone

01:07:51 ◼   ► will be, get the best one you can. It'll be great bang for your buck. My second answer, which is

01:07:56 ◼   ► probably the better of the two is AirPods. They are expensive, but they provide—assuming

01:08:00 ◼   ► they fit in your ears—they provide me endless amounts of joy. I cannot speak highly enough

01:08:06 ◼   ► of the AirPods. So let's go to John, who will hopefully have a very quick answer, and

01:08:12 ◼   ► then Marco, you can take us home.

01:08:13 ◼   ► >> John

01:08:17 ◼   ► The AirPods is a good one, but I still feel like the OnePlus 1SX is too much. My answer

01:08:18 ◼   ► is the iPhone 8. I think the most expensive iPhone is too much. Like the iPhone 10, it's

01:08:22 ◼   ► It's not worth the price premium, but the iPhone 8 is a fantastic phone.

01:08:28 ◼   ► If the iPhone X didn't exist, the iPhone 8 would be a worthy top-end phone.

01:08:33 ◼   ► And because the iPhone X does exist, it can be less expensive.

01:08:36 ◼   ► And yeah, the iPhone 8 is still expensive, but it's a really great phone.

01:08:40 ◼   ► And I feel like it gets overlooked.

01:08:42 ◼   ► And the iPhone is Apple's best product.

01:08:44 ◼   ► They put their best stuff into it.

01:08:46 ◼   ► It has the highest success rate.

01:08:48 ◼   ► So I feel like that's the most bang for the buck, even though it is a hell of a lot of

01:08:51 ◼   ► the box is also a hell of a lot of bang.

01:08:54 ◼   ► - That's a really good pick, I will give you that.

01:08:57 ◼   ► Alright, so I kind of have multiple picks,

01:08:59 ◼   ► it depends on what category you're looking at.

01:09:00 ◼   ► I thought about stuff like AirPods,

01:09:02 ◼   ► but I wanted to just focus on computers, phones, and iPads.

01:09:06 ◼   ► So I'm not gonna say, well you know this one

01:09:08 ◼   ► lightning cable is the best bang for the buck

01:09:10 ◼   ► in the whole store.

01:09:12 ◼   ► - None of Apple's cables are the best bang for your buck.

01:09:13 ◼   ► - I know, actually I thought about that and looked,

01:09:15 ◼   ► I'm like no, there's nothing in these categories anyway.

01:09:18 ◼   ► And I also, I wanted to enforce some minimum standards

01:09:22 ◼   ► of making things usable.

01:09:24 ◼   ► And so iOS devices, I decided needed to have

01:09:28 ◼   ► at least 64 gigs of storage.

01:09:30 ◼   ► And for anything I picked that was an iPad,

01:09:33 ◼   ► it had to include a smart cover.

01:09:35 ◼   ► So that's 40 bucks to the iPad prices.

01:09:38 ◼   ► For the Mac, I thought at least a 256 gig SSD

01:09:42 ◼   ► or a one terabyte Fusion drive.

01:09:46 ◼   ► And if it's a USB-C model that I was considering,

01:09:48 ◼   ► I added a $100 allowance for adapters and hubs.

01:09:52 ◼   ► Because I truly, and I don't mean to go off

01:09:53 ◼   ► on the laptops again.

01:09:55 ◼   ► - There we go.

01:09:56 ◼   ► - I truly don't believe that the modern USB-C only laptops

01:10:00 ◼   ► are useful without having, you know,

01:10:03 ◼   ► 50 to $100 worth of adapters and hubs for them.

01:10:06 ◼   ► In the same way that an iPad is not useful

01:10:08 ◼   ► without some kind of cover or case.

01:10:10 ◼   ► Anyway, so, in the iPhone category,

01:10:13 ◼   ► which I think is my overall category probably,

01:10:16 ◼   ► because iPhones are just so damn useful

01:10:18 ◼   ► so damn good.

01:10:19 ◼   ► I actually picked the iPhone 7 128 Jet Black.

01:10:23 ◼   ► This goes for 650 new or 590 currently refurbished

01:10:27 ◼   ► from Apple.com.

01:10:28 ◼   ► You know, it looks like the iPhone SE 128, that's 450.

01:10:31 ◼   ► That's only new, there's no refurbished for that.

01:10:33 ◼   ► So 450 for the iPhone SE or 590 for an iPhone 7 refurb.

01:10:38 ◼   ► That is such a good phone.

01:10:40 ◼   ► I like it better than the 8 because one of the,

01:10:42 ◼   ► you know, the great advantage of the Jet Black

01:10:44 ◼   ► is you don't really need a case

01:10:45 ◼   ► 'cause there's so much grip on it

01:10:46 ◼   ► and I think it looks better, honestly.

01:10:48 ◼   ► than the 8 does and it's still a really solid modern internal phone that's literally the

01:10:53 ◼   ► CPU that just put in this new iPad we were just talking about. So the iPhone 7 128 JetBlack

01:10:59 ◼   ► new or refurb I think is the best buy right now in the iPhone lineup and possibly the

01:11:03 ◼   ► entire Apple lineup. I will also say in the iPad lineup that new iPad, the new 9.7 iPad

01:11:09 ◼   ► 128 gigs with Smart Cover is 470. That's a really good deal. You can also get last year's

01:11:16 ◼   ► version of it with Smart Cover refurbished for $350.

01:11:20 ◼   ► That's an excellent deal.

01:11:21 ◼   ► And you can get the cellular version of last year's model

01:11:25 ◼   ► of that 9.7 in 128 for $450 refurbished.

01:11:29 ◼   ► That's, a cellular iPad, I really enjoy a cellular iPad

01:11:33 ◼   ► because if you're talking about like what's gonna be,

01:11:36 ◼   ► how can I make this thing the most useful to me,

01:11:38 ◼   ► adding cellular really helps a lot.

01:11:40 ◼   ► This is one of the reasons why I wish they'd added

01:11:41 ◼   ► it to the laptops because it really makes this like

01:11:44 ◼   ► a truly portable work device.

01:11:46 ◼   ► It's just like a giant phone then,

01:11:48 ◼   ► and it's really very nice to have that sometimes.

01:11:51 ◼   ► In the laptop category, if you are limiting yourself

01:11:56 ◼   ► to the only modern 2016 forward MacBooks,

01:12:01 ◼   ► the 13-inch MacBook Escape with 256 giga SSD

01:12:06 ◼   ► is 1600 new or 1370 refurb,

01:12:10 ◼   ► both of those include that $100 allowance

01:12:12 ◼   ► and hubs.

01:12:13 ◼   ► If you don't need retina, the 13 inch MacBook Air

01:12:17 ◼   ► is still sold.

01:12:18 ◼   ► 256 gives you 1200 new or 980 refurb.

01:12:21 ◼   ► - I can't pay 900 dollars for anything with that screen

01:12:25 ◼   ► on it.

01:12:26 ◼   ► - I know, and that's why I had this as like a huge caveat.

01:12:29 ◼   ► If you don't need or care about retina,

01:12:31 ◼   ► that's a really great buy.

01:12:33 ◼   ► - It's not the retina, it's the viewing angles

01:12:35 ◼   ► and color reproduction.

01:12:36 ◼   ► I just think it's a bad screen.

01:12:38 ◼   ► - Well, I think if you don't care about retina,

01:12:40 ◼   ► you're probably not gonna care about that either.

01:12:41 ◼   ► either. Oh, and for desktop, you know, 4K iMac I think, 8, 1 terabyte Fusion, 4K iMac

01:12:47 ◼   ► is 1400 new, 1270 refurb, that's the way to go on that. However, I think the best Mac

01:12:52 ◼   ► value is, to nobody's surprise, the 2015, 15 inch MacBook Pro base model.

01:13:00 ◼   ► - Oh, here we go.

01:13:01 ◼   ► - It's 2000 new or it's 1700 refurb. For 1700 refurb, you get a hell of a computer. You

01:13:10 ◼   ► You get 16 gigs of RAM, which none of the other ones

01:13:12 ◼   ► offer at these prices, 256 of course, quad core processor,

01:13:16 ◼   ► and then you have all the ports you need,

01:13:18 ◼   ► you have a keyboard and trackpad

01:13:19 ◼   ► that are non-controversial and reliable,

01:13:21 ◼   ► you don't need any dongles or anything.

01:13:23 ◼   ► That is still, I think, the best overall value

01:13:26 ◼   ► in the Mac lineup.

01:13:28 ◼   ► So, overall, iPhone 7, Jet Black,

01:13:33 ◼   ► and the 2015 15-inch base model.

01:13:36 ◼   ► - I've got that iPhone, and I think the 8 is a better deal.

01:13:40 ◼   ► Maybe it's because I just checked my battery health and it's at 87% and I felt worse about

01:13:43 ◼   ► my phone.

01:13:44 ◼   ► [laughter]

01:13:45 ◼   ► Womp womp.

01:13:47 ◼   ► Alright, cool.

01:13:49 ◼   ► Anson Jablinski writes, "Hey, what did Marco play in marching band, or what musical experience

01:13:54 ◼   ► does each of the hosts have, if any?"

01:13:56 ◼   ► So Marco, what did you play in marching band?

01:13:58 ◼   ► I was in the percussion section.

01:14:00 ◼   ► So I started out as a freshman on Crash Symbols, right at the bottom of the totem pole there.

01:14:05 ◼   ► And then sophomore year I was on snare drum.

01:14:08 ◼   ► Junior and senior year I was on quads.

01:14:10 ◼   ► - Fair enough.

01:14:11 ◼   ► I have never played anything

01:14:12 ◼   ► with any sort of efficacy whatsoever,

01:14:14 ◼   ► except I play a mean stereo.

01:14:16 ◼   ► Nevermind.

01:14:19 ◼   ► John.

01:14:19 ◼   ► - I played keyboards as a kid.

01:14:22 ◼   ► We had like electric keyboards in the house.

01:14:23 ◼   ► I noodled around in those.

01:14:24 ◼   ► I did actually take piano lessons

01:14:26 ◼   ► for some short period of time,

01:14:28 ◼   ► but I could play songs that I wanted to play,

01:14:32 ◼   ► like from the radio and stuff on keyboards.

01:14:35 ◼   ► And in college, I picked up a guitar

01:14:37 ◼   ► because everybody on my floor in my dorm, my freshman dorm, had guitars, and so it was

01:14:42 ◼   ► impossible not to pick up a guitar. All of those instruments I'm pretty much terrible

01:14:46 ◼   ► at. And I could never sight-read music, but I could kind of non-sight-read it briefly

01:14:52 ◼   ► for certain instruments.

01:14:54 ◼   ► Moving on, The Italian Stallion, who is apparently not John Siracusa, asks, "Backpack recommendations?

01:15:00 ◼   ► That would fit a 15-inch MacBook Pro." I know you just said backpack, but if you don't

01:15:05 ◼   ► to have a backpack. I really love my Tom Bihn Cadet, which I'll put a link in the show notes

01:15:11 ◼   ► to my review of that. I've also heard but have not tried myself that the Tom Bihn Synapse

01:15:16 ◼   ► is excellent, and that is a backpack, but that's probably not useful. So does one of

01:15:22 ◼   ► you have a backpack recommendation that you enjoy?

01:15:24 ◼   ► - I have, so to me, backpacks are kind of like the way most people think of to-do apps

01:15:30 ◼   ► and like, you know, task managers.

01:15:33 ◼   ► I'm always about 80% satisfied with the backpack I have,

01:15:37 ◼   ► and I'm frequently trying new ones as a result.

01:15:39 ◼   ► (laughs)

01:15:40 ◼   ► And so I have tried some really nice ones, actually.

01:15:44 ◼   ► You know, some of these are wonderful.

01:15:46 ◼   ► I have the Waterfield Designs Stad laptop backpack.

01:15:51 ◼   ► They make a bunch of good stuff,

01:15:53 ◼   ► and that's very good, holds a 15 inch just fine.

01:15:57 ◼   ► I have a really nice Briggs & Riley backpack.

01:16:02 ◼   ► That was something like 200 bucks,

01:16:04 ◼   ► and I forget exactly which model it is,

01:16:07 ◼   ► one of the Active series.

01:16:08 ◼   ► That's pretty nice too.

01:16:10 ◼   ► I recently got a Peak Design Everyday backpack,

01:16:14 ◼   ► and that's also really nice.

01:16:16 ◼   ► Ultimately, all of these are very good.

01:16:21 ◼   ► None of them are perfect.

01:16:22 ◼   ► I have not yet tried Tom Bihn.

01:16:24 ◼   ► I believe the Synapse 25 would be the one to get.

01:16:26 ◼   ► I was looking at that.

01:16:28 ◼   ► I would love to see it sometime.

01:16:30 ◼   ► I might end up trying it anyway,

01:16:32 ◼   ► but all of these have pluses and minuses,

01:16:36 ◼   ► and it depends a lot on what you're doing.

01:16:39 ◼   ► If you're using it for every day carrying it to work,

01:16:42 ◼   ► that's a very different type of needs

01:16:45 ◼   ► from if you're using it to bring it on planes

01:16:48 ◼   ► and travel with it or to also have

01:16:50 ◼   ► a weekend worth of clothing and stuff in it.

01:16:52 ◼   ► These are very different needs.

01:16:54 ◼   ► The Waterfield one is beautiful, very stylish, trendy,

01:16:58 ◼   ► looks nice.

01:16:59 ◼   ► The Briggs & Morale one I found has a lot of pluses to it,

01:17:04 ◼   ► but ultimately I didn't care for the layout

01:17:09 ◼   ► of the interior space.

01:17:11 ◼   ► A lot of things are hard to reach, hard to access.

01:17:14 ◼   ► There's a lot of seemingly wasted space

01:17:15 ◼   ► with weird padding areas and stuff

01:17:17 ◼   ► that I don't think need to be there

01:17:19 ◼   ► or should be arranged differently.

01:17:21 ◼   ► The Peak Design Everyday Backpack is my current one.

01:17:24 ◼   ► I've got it recently.

01:17:26 ◼   ► And it also is very nice with a few flaws.

01:17:30 ◼   ► It really does not hold very much.

01:17:32 ◼   ► I got the smaller one of the two

01:17:33 ◼   ► and I'm kind of thinking maybe the bigger one

01:17:35 ◼   ► might have been the better bet.

01:17:37 ◼   ► It's fine in that way, but it holds plenty

01:17:42 ◼   ► if you want it to be like a laptop bag going to work.

01:17:45 ◼   ► I would say though for a 15 inch MacBook Pro,

01:17:48 ◼   ► it just barely fits in the Peak Design.

01:17:50 ◼   ► Like the laptop pocket is very tight.

01:17:52 ◼   ► It's squeezing my laptop such that

01:17:54 ◼   ► I'm getting keyboard imprints on the screen.

01:17:56 ◼   ► So I don't love that.

01:17:58 ◼   ► I honestly would not recommend it for daily use

01:18:01 ◼   ► if only for that.

01:18:02 ◼   ► Whereas the Waterfield Stad I think is better for that.

01:18:07 ◼   ► But at these prices, I expect perfection

01:18:12 ◼   ► to pay $300-ish for a backpack,

01:18:15 ◼   ► and I haven't found that yet.

01:18:17 ◼   ► So I'm all ears if anybody has something else they like.

01:18:19 ◼   ► but ultimately I think that it's the kind of category

01:18:22 ◼   ► where what's perfect for one person

01:18:24 ◼   ► is gonna be totally wrong for another person

01:18:26 ◼   ► and it's all gonna be personal preference

01:18:28 ◼   ► and you just gotta try it out and see for yourself.

01:18:30 ◼   ► - Yeah, yeah.

01:18:32 ◼   ► - So the closest I've got to a backpack that I really like

01:18:35 ◼   ► is actually it's not sold anymore but there's an equivalent.

01:18:38 ◼   ► Is this L.L. Bean backpack.

01:18:40 ◼   ► I don't know what that model of mine is

01:18:41 ◼   ► but the closest one they have is now called

01:18:43 ◼   ► the Quad backpack and it's so close.

01:18:45 ◼   ► I like backpacks, first of all that are cheap,

01:18:47 ◼   ► this is like 80 bucks,

01:18:49 ◼   ► that have tons of little pockets everywhere on them.

01:18:51 ◼   ► So you can put all those dongles that we need

01:18:53 ◼   ► in this dongle lifestyle that we have now.

01:18:55 ◼   ► It's got an inside pocket that will fit any,

01:18:58 ◼   ► fit a 15 inch laptop and it also an iPad inside a case

01:19:02 ◼   ► inside that same pocket.

01:19:03 ◼   ► And then it's got tons of other interior space

01:19:05 ◼   ► and all sorts of little pockets.

01:19:06 ◼   ► And it's kind of, it's not fashionable.

01:19:08 ◼   ► It's not made of nice materials.

01:19:10 ◼   ► It's just kind of like durable,

01:19:11 ◼   ► kind of like camping type equipment, right?

01:19:13 ◼   ► It's not, there's no leather anywhere on this thing, right?

01:19:16 ◼   ► So if you want to look good, forget about it.

01:19:18 ◼   ► The one thing that annoys me about this backpack that you should be warned about is that it

01:19:22 ◼   ► has tons of weird straps everywhere.

01:19:24 ◼   ► Like, "Oh, if you're stuffing it filled with camping stuff, you need the strap that goes

01:19:27 ◼   ► around your waist and the straps, the two straps on the side that hold the backpack

01:19:31 ◼   ► together."

01:19:32 ◼   ► And I considered cutting them off, but it's actually kind of hard to cut them off because

01:19:34 ◼   ► it's pretty durable.

01:19:35 ◼   ► So, but I have found a way to tuck the straps that I'm not using into some of the pockets

01:19:40 ◼   ► so they're mostly out of the way.

01:19:41 ◼   ► It's still an annoyance.

01:19:42 ◼   ► If it didn't have those straps, I think it would be close to perfect for me because that's

01:19:46 ◼   ► That's what I want. I want to be cheap, durable, light, and have tons of pockets and zippers

01:19:50 ◼   ► and not fall apart. So far, this L.L. Bean backpack has fit the bill.

01:19:55 ◼   ► I will say too, for the Peak Design Everyday Backpack, it really excels at hiding all of

01:20:00 ◼   ► the extra straps and stuff that can be used in a pinch. Every strap that it has, has some

01:20:05 ◼   ► kind of pocket that it belongs in when it's not being used. And so it's totally invisible

01:20:11 ◼   ► and out of the way.

01:20:12 ◼   ► It is very well designed for expansion of that,

01:20:16 ◼   ► but yeah, ultimately, I wish it was a little bigger.

01:20:19 ◼   ► So I might have to try the bigger version of it,

01:20:21 ◼   ► and I also wish that laptop compartment wasn't so crushing,

01:20:24 ◼   ► but hopefully this summer I'll move to a 13-inch newer one,

01:20:27 ◼   ► and that should probably solve that problem for me.

01:20:30 ◼   ► Do you guys do packing cubes when you travel?

01:20:34 ◼   ► - No. - Not in the traditional sense.

01:20:36 ◼   ► I do have that Go pack that I talk about all the time

01:20:38 ◼   ► is sort of ish like a packing cube that's just basically got all my dongles and things

01:20:44 ◼   ► of that nature in it.

01:20:45 ◼   ► But what you're talking about I think is, you know, packing like clothes and other things

01:20:49 ◼   ► of that nature in packing cubes.

01:20:51 ◼   ► And this appeals to me from an organizational standpoint.

01:20:55 ◼   ► I feel like this is something that I would really like, but I've never done it.

01:20:59 ◼   ► And it doesn't seem like I don't really get why people would do this, even though it sounds

01:21:05 ◼   ► like it would be something I would like.

01:21:06 ◼   ► You know what I mean?

01:21:07 ◼   ► Are you asking because you haven't or because you're trying it now or what brings this up?

01:21:12 ◼   ► So I recently started. A lot of our friends travel a lot, way more than I do, and I kept hearing from people like,

01:21:19 ◼   ► "Oh, you got to try packing cubes," or just generally like the style of traveling or packing where you have like sub bags in your bags.

01:21:27 ◼   ► You know, all packing cubes are are just like, you know, rectangular solid sub bags that you put in your bags.

01:21:34 ◼   ► That's basically it. And so,

01:21:37 ◼   ► I was usually of the style of using the bag's pockets

01:21:41 ◼   ► as dividers and compartments,

01:21:46 ◼   ► but the packing cube and sub-bag lifestyle

01:21:49 ◼   ► seems to want to have just like large, open compartments

01:21:54 ◼   ► in the bags, and then you have your own sub-bag things

01:21:57 ◼   ► that you put in there that are separate from that

01:22:01 ◼   ► to be your separation organization.

01:22:03 ◼   ► And so I recently tried, I wanted to,

01:22:06 ◼   ► when I got my cool Peak Design Everyday backpack,

01:22:08 ◼   ► I decided to also try the packing cube lifestyle

01:22:11 ◼   ► for a couple of these trips I've taken recently.

01:22:13 ◼   ► And I gotta say, I see the benefit.

01:22:15 ◼   ► It's pretty cool.

01:22:16 ◼   ► Like, Tiff made fun of me relentlessly,

01:22:17 ◼   ► but then she wanted some as soon as she saw how they worked.

01:22:20 ◼   ► Because what's nice about them is that

01:22:23 ◼   ► there's a few benefits.

01:22:24 ◼   ► Number one, like, it is actually nicer

01:22:26 ◼   ► to organize things that way in a bag.

01:22:29 ◼   ► And if you get the compression cubes,

01:22:31 ◼   ► which have like slightly compressing zippers

01:22:33 ◼   ► around the perimeter, it actually does help

01:22:35 ◼   ► you can press your clothes slightly in a controlled way

01:22:37 ◼   ► that doesn't like, you know,

01:22:38 ◼   ► excessively wrinkle them or anything.

01:22:40 ◼   ► But a really nice thing about the packing cubes is that

01:22:42 ◼   ► if, when you arrive at a hotel,

01:22:45 ◼   ► you can just take the packing cubes right out of your bag

01:22:47 ◼   ► and just place them like in the drawers,

01:22:49 ◼   ► if you use the drawers in a hotel.

01:22:51 ◼   ► You just put them in the drawers and open them up

01:22:52 ◼   ► and then you have like, oh, here's my sock rectangle,

01:22:55 ◼   ► you know, here's my shirt rectangle.

01:22:57 ◼   ► And it's like, it's actually really nice.

01:23:01 ◼   ► And so I think I've been converted.

01:23:03 ◼   ► I wanna do a little more traveling with them.

01:23:04 ◼   ► I've done two trips so far with them,

01:23:07 ◼   ► but I think I'm being converted to the sub-bag

01:23:10 ◼   ► and packing cube lifestyle.

01:23:13 ◼   ► - So you said you have one for socks and one for shirts?

01:23:16 ◼   ► What did you end up doing?

01:23:18 ◼   ► - So I got a variety of sizes.

01:23:21 ◼   ► If you're looking at the Eagle Creek ones,

01:23:23 ◼   ► I would say the small and medium sizes are the ones to get.

01:23:26 ◼   ► The rest of the sizes I have not yet found much of a use for.

01:23:30 ◼   ► So small, medium, and compression, if possible.

01:23:32 ◼   ► And they're not cheap.

01:23:34 ◼   ► They end up being like 25 bucks each, something like that.

01:23:37 ◼   ► But they do seem pretty well made.

01:23:39 ◼   ► I have the tech line that has slightly higher tech fabric

01:23:42 ◼   ► and it's a little bit lighter.

01:23:43 ◼   ► I haven't quite worked with the whole system yet,

01:23:45 ◼   ► but I have one of them will basically put

01:23:47 ◼   ► all my underwear and socks in.

01:23:49 ◼   ► And this depends on how much you need to bring.

01:23:51 ◼   ► And I've only, again, used this for two trips so far,

01:23:53 ◼   ► so take all this with a grain of salt.

01:23:54 ◼   ► But all underwear and socks will go in one,

01:23:56 ◼   ► and then all t-shirts will go in another.

01:23:58 ◼   ► And then if I have extra pants, I'll put those in one.

01:24:02 ◼   ► And that's about it.

01:24:03 ◼   ► They have some that you can fold dress shirts into.

01:24:06 ◼   ► I haven't tried that yet.

01:24:07 ◼   ► It's just kind of nice and then it makes it easier to pack.

01:24:12 ◼   ► It makes it more organized in the bag to get stuff

01:24:16 ◼   ► or if you have to move stuff around in the bag,

01:24:17 ◼   ► if you have to rearrange stuff.

01:24:18 ◼   ► It's surprisingly nice.

01:24:20 ◼   ► I thought they were pointless,

01:24:21 ◼   ► but now I get it and I'm sold.

01:24:24 ◼   ► - You know, I've tried a new thought technology

01:24:28 ◼   ► with regard to packing,

01:24:29 ◼   ► which is rolling rather than folding.

01:24:31 ◼   ► - Oh, the rolling people.

01:24:32 ◼   ► - Oh yeah, you roll the stuff into the packing cubes.

01:24:34 ◼   ► That helps a lot.

01:24:36 ◼   ► - I feel like it's probably a placebo,

01:24:39 ◼   ► but I really feel like I can get considerably more stuff

01:24:43 ◼   ► into my bag when it's rolled,

01:24:44 ◼   ► and it's more likely to come out less wrinkled.

01:24:48 ◼   ► It is still a wrinkled disaster,

01:24:49 ◼   ► but it is less so than when I fold.

01:24:53 ◼   ► And so I have been converted to the rolling lifestyle.

01:24:57 ◼   ► Like I said, that's a new thought technology in my world

01:24:59 ◼   ► that I have embraced.

01:25:00 ◼   ► But yeah, the packing cube is still beyond me.

01:25:03 ◼   ► Jon, why do you scoff at rolling?

01:25:05 ◼   ► You're not a fan?

01:25:07 ◼   ► There's a couple of reasons.

01:25:10 ◼   ► I'm not into rolling and I'm not into the packing things.

01:25:14 ◼   ► The rolling, well, it's both the same reason, I guess.

01:25:18 ◼   ► And I feel like all of my items of clothing have a natural size that they want to be folded

01:25:23 ◼   ► at.

01:25:24 ◼   ► And that size is not rolled, and it probably doesn't match any of the packing things.

01:25:29 ◼   ► Like I need to fold things at the size that they want it to be folded.

01:25:33 ◼   ► They speak to me.

01:25:34 ◼   ► Like how big should I be?

01:25:35 ◼   ► And if I try to fold my shirts bigger or smaller, maybe it's because I'm a limited folder.

01:25:40 ◼   ► Maybe I have a limited repertoire of folding skills.

01:25:42 ◼   ► Like I'm not good at folding laundry.

01:25:43 ◼   ► I fold things the way I fold them and I let the garment tell me how it wants to be folded.

01:25:48 ◼   ► And the other thing is with my let the garment speak to me and tell me how to fold, combined

01:25:52 ◼   ► with my fairly obsessive overpacking, I can pack any of my suitcases easily to the point

01:26:00 ◼   ► where they exceed the weight limit that airlines have.

01:26:02 ◼   ► So I don't need any compression thing to help me get more into the bag.

01:26:06 ◼   ► If anything, I have to intentionally pack less efficiently so I don't go over the weight

01:26:09 ◼   ► limit and have to pull things out of my bag to get it on the plane.

01:26:13 ◼   ► Because the weight limits are like, what, 50 pounds, 40, 50 pounds?

01:26:16 ◼   ► Well, it's not a weight limit so much as there's a fee if you go over it.

01:26:19 ◼   ► Yeah.

01:26:20 ◼   ► Anyway, I don't want to have that fee and I don't want to go over the limit.

01:26:22 ◼   ► And sometimes it actually is a limit and they'll make you have another – check another bag

01:26:25 ◼   ► or something.

01:26:27 ◼   ► So I am always on the ragged edge of that limit with no packing cubes and no rolling

01:26:32 ◼   ► and folding my clothes the way they naturally want to be folded.

01:26:35 ◼   ► So I feel like this is not a problem I have in my life and I'm not looking for ways

01:26:38 ◼   ► to jam more stuff into my suitcase and I'm definitely not looking for ways to make me

01:26:42 ◼   ► have to learn how to fold my clothes in a different way than the one and only way I

01:26:45 ◼   ► know how to fold them.

01:26:46 ◼   ► Well, it is really nice if – like if you're checking a bag, then yeah, you're right.

01:26:49 ◼   ► the weight limit is usually a bigger problem.

01:26:51 ◼   ► But it's really nice if you are kind of on the border

01:26:54 ◼   ► between needing to check it

01:26:55 ◼   ► and being able to fit it in a carry-on.

01:26:57 ◼   ► And I love just traveling with a carry-on if possible.

01:26:59 ◼   ► - Oh, yeah. - It's so nice

01:27:00 ◼   ► to just bypass the baggage claim

01:27:02 ◼   ► and just walk around it, just leave.

01:27:04 ◼   ► And you're just done.

01:27:05 ◼   ► You have everything you need with you.

01:27:07 ◼   ► You can just walk out and you're done.

01:27:08 ◼   ► Like, that's wonderful.

01:27:09 ◼   ► So where this stuff helps is not in cramming 75 pounds

01:27:14 ◼   ► worth of stuff into a very large check bag,

01:27:17 ◼   ► but in fitting into a carry-on where otherwise

01:27:20 ◼   ► you might not have fit into a carry-on.

01:27:22 ◼   ► - Or of your underscore, not even having a carry-on,

01:27:25 ◼   ► but just having a backpack for an entire week,

01:27:28 ◼   ► which just still blows my mind, 'cause like I said,

01:27:30 ◼   ► I'm a massive over-packer and he apparently

01:27:33 ◼   ► needs no human sustenance of any kind.

01:27:35 ◼   ► I can just-- (laughing)

01:27:37 ◼   ► - It is very satisfying to be packed very lightly on a trip

01:27:42 ◼   ► and to need very little and to use everything you have.

01:27:44 ◼   ► I actually, I tried, one of the trips I just took

01:27:47 ◼   ► was this trip where I was helping my family member move.

01:27:51 ◼   ► And because I was gonna be taking space

01:27:53 ◼   ► in a very full moving convoy of trucks,

01:27:57 ◼   ► I didn't wanna have a large bag myself.

01:27:59 ◼   ► I figured that was wasteful and I wanna leave

01:28:01 ◼   ► as much space as possible for his stuff.

01:28:03 ◼   ► - You've got a whole moving truck.

01:28:04 ◼   ► You're afraid you aren't gonna have room?

01:28:05 ◼   ► You have a moving truck.

01:28:06 ◼   ► - Oh, you haven't seen this stuff.

01:28:08 ◼   ► But it was full.

01:28:10 ◼   ► And so I brought, for this trip,

01:28:12 ◼   ► I brought only my Peak Design Everyday Backpack.

01:28:15 ◼   ► and I shoved everything I needed for three days,

01:28:18 ◼   ► or four days, whatever it was, into this backpack.

01:28:22 ◼   ► It was glorious.

01:28:23 ◼   ► Like, there was no space left over,

01:28:25 ◼   ► and I had to do some pretty crazy stuff,

01:28:26 ◼   ► and I only had one pair of pants.

01:28:28 ◼   ► But it was glorious to have everything fit

01:28:32 ◼   ► in like one backpack, including my computer,

01:28:36 ◼   ► these two walkie-talkies, some accessories for driving,

01:28:39 ◼   ► like I brought like my cell phone suction cup

01:28:40 ◼   ► piece of garbage, like I brought a whole bunch of like,

01:28:43 ◼   ► you know, stuff that would be necessary for the trip.

01:28:46 ◼   ► - Coffee tubes.

01:28:46 ◼   ► - Yeah, I brought my tubes of instant coffee,

01:28:49 ◼   ► my tubes of Southern Coffee.

01:28:50 ◼   ► (laughing)

01:28:52 ◼   ► - So now does all your items of clothing smell like coffee?

01:28:54 ◼   ► 'Cause they're all wedged into this bag

01:28:56 ◼   ► with the coffee tubes?

01:28:57 ◼   ► - No, the tubes are sealed.

01:28:58 ◼   ► - All right, I don't know.

01:28:59 ◼   ► - No. - You said they were canvas.

01:29:00 ◼   ► I thought maybe they'd be--

01:29:01 ◼   ► - No, no, there are plastic tubes

01:29:02 ◼   ► that come in a pretty canvas bag.

01:29:04 ◼   ► - Mm, all right.

01:29:05 ◼   ► - Yeah, and it is very satisfying.

01:29:08 ◼   ► I would love, like, to travel to WVDC,

01:29:10 ◼   ► I would love to travel with just like

01:29:12 ◼   ► one of the smallest roller bag size,

01:29:15 ◼   ► you know, that the pilots usually have.

01:29:17 ◼   ► I have one of those, it's glorious.

01:29:19 ◼   ► I love being able to fit into that.

01:29:20 ◼   ► The only reason I don't for WWDC is that we bring

01:29:24 ◼   ► like a whole podcast studio, so I have all this gear.

01:29:27 ◼   ► But like on trips where I don't have that,

01:29:29 ◼   ► I love packing the smallest possible.

01:29:31 ◼   ► - Should I ask Skynyrskur, maybe he can fit

01:29:33 ◼   ► the podcasting studio in one of his inside jacket pockets.

01:29:35 ◼   ► (laughing)

01:29:36 ◼   ► - Probably.

01:29:37 ◼   ► (laughing)

01:29:38 ◼   ► - No, I really wanna just emphasize

01:29:42 ◼   ► what you guys are saying about Underscore's packing, because we for a long time would fly out together.

01:29:46 ◼   ► I would drive up to Dulles, which is which is reasonably close to his house,

01:29:50 ◼   ► and we would take the same flight and try to sit next to each other and whatnot. And I would be rolling in with like

01:29:55 ◼   ► my laptop bag, which is bursting at the seams, and in a carry-on bag, which was bursting at the seams. And

01:30:01 ◼   ► that pain in my rear end rolls in with like a lightly stuffed backpack.

01:30:06 ◼   ► It's not even, I shouldn't even say "stop," like a lightly packed backpack. And that is all he has.

01:30:11 ◼   ► That's his computer. That's his toiletries his luggage everything is in this backpack for a week. It's inhuman

01:30:19 ◼   ► I've asked him about this every year. I asked about this and every year

01:30:23 ◼   ► He's just he's kind of shrugs and smirks and basically says I don't need a lot

01:30:26 ◼   ► It's so it's both delightful and infuriating all at the same time because I'm like John

01:30:32 ◼   ► I pack way too much and over the years. I have gotten that beaten out of me like over time

01:30:37 ◼   ► I've gotten better about not packing everything in the world and I still pack way too much

01:30:42 ◼   ► What you just described is half of what I pack because he were like you have a laptop bag and a roller bag

01:30:47 ◼   ► I have a full-size suitcase like the biggest the highest weight limit suitcase you can get and then my backpack. I

01:30:53 ◼   ► mean I

01:30:56 ◼   ► Adore my away suitcase and they happen to be sponsoring this episode and they carry on I mean, it's a wonderful wonderful suitcase

01:31:02 ◼   ► I would say that even if we weren't compensated to say that but it is not you know

01:31:07 ◼   ► cavernous it's it's it's it's carry-on I mean which makes sense and I can get you

01:31:13 ◼   ► know like a little last year I got my entire week's worth of luggage my

01:31:17 ◼   ► toiletry kit my my go pack and a pair of running shoes in there and I was very

01:31:21 ◼   ► proud of myself because for me that was a heck of an accomplishment and

01:31:24 ◼   ► underscore I think he was wearing you know sneakers for the for the week so he

01:31:29 ◼   ► didn't have to have a second pair of shoes but he had like running clothes he

01:31:33 ◼   ► He probably brought a damn kettle for his coffee for all I know in this backpack.

01:31:38 ◼   ► It's like Santa's freaking bag that he has.

01:31:41 ◼   ► It's incredible.

01:31:42 ◼   ► So thanks to our sponsors this week, Away, Aftershocks, and Jamf Now.

01:31:48 ◼   ► And we'll talk to you next week.

01:31:49 ◼   ► Now the show is over.

01:31:52 ◼   ► They didn't even mean to begin.

01:31:55 ◼   ► Cause it was accidental.

01:31:57 ◼   ► Oh it was accidental.

01:31:59 ◼   ► John didn't even know.

01:32:01 ◼   ► John didn't do any research, Margo and Casey wouldn't let him

01:32:07 ◼   ► 'Cause it was accidental, it was accidental

01:32:12 ◼   ► And you can find the show notes at ATP.FM

01:32:17 ◼   ► And if you're into Twitter, you can follow them

01:32:22 ◼   ► M A R C O A R M

01:32:32 ◼   ► N T Marko R M S I R

01:32:35 ◼   ► A C U S A Syracuse

01:32:39 ◼   ► It's accidental They didn't mean to

01:32:45 ◼   ► Accidental Tech broadcast so long

01:32:52 ◼   ► - By the way, for people wondering about

01:32:53 ◼   ► the inside jacket pocket thing,

01:32:55 ◼   ► Underscore is the first person I saw

01:32:56 ◼   ► who had a MacBook One, the little 12 inch MacBook

01:33:00 ◼   ► with one USB-C port, literally inside his jacket pocket.

01:33:04 ◼   ► (laughing)

01:33:04 ◼   ► - This is not a joke.

01:33:05 ◼   ► - Like, opens up his jacket and takes out a laptop.

01:33:07 ◼   ► - Yeah, his wife custom made a pocket,

01:33:09 ◼   ► she sewed it on the inside of his jacket,

01:33:11 ◼   ► that would fit exactly that laptop.

01:33:13 ◼   ► And it was amazing.

01:33:15 ◼   ► To see somebody, especially Underscore,

01:33:17 ◼   ► as you mentioned, he's so frustratingly organized

01:33:21 ◼   ► all the time, he's so together.

01:33:24 ◼   ► (laughs)

01:33:25 ◼   ► And everything he does, he makes it look effortless.

01:33:29 ◼   ► It's just no big deal.

01:33:31 ◼   ► - So true.

01:33:32 ◼   ► - It's so true.

01:33:33 ◼   ► - He has all the grace in the world.

01:33:35 ◼   ► And so we were standing in line at the last WBC

01:33:38 ◼   ► in San Francisco, we were outside the whatever center

01:33:43 ◼   ► that we had to walk all the way over to get there.

01:33:46 ◼   ► And he just whips this out, we were like,

01:33:49 ◼   ► "Oh, we should check that sometime."

01:33:51 ◼   ► He goes, he's like, "Oh, I'll check it right now."

01:33:53 ◼   ► And he whips out this laptop out of his jacket.

01:33:55 ◼   ► We're like, "Whoa! How did you do that?

01:33:58 ◼   ► "Where did that come from?"

01:33:59 ◼   ► - It was so, I think it's--

01:34:00 ◼   ► - We've been walking with him,

01:34:01 ◼   ► standing in line with him, it's like, you know.

01:34:03 ◼   ► - Yeah, we had no idea.

01:34:04 ◼   ► And it was like a fleece.

01:34:06 ◼   ► It was not like a big winter coat.

01:34:07 ◼   ► It was like a light fleece.

01:34:09 ◼   ► - Oh, man.

01:34:10 ◼   ► I love that guy, but there's certain times

01:34:12 ◼   ► that I wanna strangle him in the best possible way,

01:34:15 ◼   ► and that's one of them, because I'm, it's really,

01:34:17 ◼   ► you know what it is about Underscore is that

01:34:18 ◼   ► He very, very well reflects to me my own failings,

01:34:23 ◼   ► but he's like the nicest human being in the world,

01:34:28 ◼   ► so you can't be upset at him,

01:34:30 ◼   ► 'cause he's the nicest guy ever.

01:34:31 ◼   ► - Yeah, did I ever say,

01:34:34 ◼   ► my favorite compliment I ever received was,

01:34:36 ◼   ► I had sent John Gruber some of my home roasted coffee.

01:34:39 ◼   ► He said, "I almost wanna say,

01:34:41 ◼   ► "fuck you, this is so good."

01:34:42 ◼   ► (laughing)

01:34:43 ◼   ► And that's kinda how,

01:34:44 ◼   ► it's like when Underscore does something awesome,

01:34:46 ◼   ► and I'm like, it's almost like,

01:34:48 ◼   ► He's such a nice guy, like you can't get mad at him, but you're just like, "Damn it! Why, like, why can I not?

01:34:53 ◼   ► Why have I either not thought of that or not gotten it together to do that?"

01:34:56 ◼   ► [laughs]

01:34:57 ◼   ► So true. So true.

01:34:59 ◼   ► Just comfort yourself by thinking that, just try to picture in your head, underscore, like, being frustrated at something and getting angry.

01:35:07 ◼   ► I don't think I've ever seen him even mildly, like, disturbed.

01:35:13 ◼   ► like he's never been particularly angry about anything in my experience having known him

01:35:18 ◼   ► for several years now. I've never seen him angry, never seen him particularly upset.

01:35:23 ◼   ► Sometimes he'll kind of do the exasperated laugh of, "Oh, well, that ends the breaks."

01:35:26 ◼   ► But he's like the least phased person I've ever seen. And I am somewhat skeptical that

01:35:35 ◼   ► he has ever raised his voice for any reason ever.

01:35:37 ◼   ► I believe he has, and I picture that to make me feel better about myself.

01:35:44 ◼   ► The best part of all is, he's going to be listening to this at some absurd hour tomorrow

01:35:47 ◼   ► morning because he typically bootlegs all this, and he is going to be so deeply embarrassed

01:35:51 ◼   ► by this entire conversation, which isn't actually something I should be proud of, but

01:35:55 ◼   ► it is making me laugh a little bit. Maybe that's his one flaw. That's the one.

01:36:00 ◼   ► His one flaw? Excessive modesty? Wow.

01:36:03 ◼   ► (laughing)

01:36:05 ◼   ► - It's like the BS job interview responses,

01:36:08 ◼   ► what's your biggest weakness?

01:36:10 ◼   ► Well sometimes that works too hard.

01:36:11 ◼   ► - That works too hard.

01:36:12 ◼   ► (laughing)

01:36:14 ◼   ► - Oh God, that's incredible.

01:36:16 ◼   ► (beeping)