ATP

00:00:00 ◼   ► So I'm seeing people all over Twitter say, "Oh my god, update Chrome right away."

00:00:04 ◼   ► Hmm. I can't for the life of me figure out how to update Chrome.

00:00:08 ◼   ► About Google Chrome? About?

00:00:12 ◼   ► Yeah, that's always where it is. Oh, updating. Well, mine's updated already.

00:00:16 ◼   ► I'm on the beta channel, though. Why? What's going on on the regular channel?

00:00:20 ◼   ► What's the issue? I haven't bothered to look yet. Everyone's saying update now.

00:00:24 ◼   ► Maybe they're just finally getting the new ugly tabs? I don't know.

00:00:28 ◼   ► That I've had for like three months now? What happens if your Chrome

00:00:32 ◼   ► colon slash slash help is spinning?

00:00:36 ◼   ► That seems not good. You go to the task manager window that

00:00:40 ◼   ► Chrome has. Oh god. I just don't know how

00:00:44 ◼   ► people tolerate Chrome. It's so... I like Chrome.

00:00:48 ◼   ► Oh god, how can you be such like a Mac person?

00:00:52 ◼   ► Seriously, like you're preach. I'm not gonna say it's Mac-like. You won't even own an

00:00:56 ◼   ► Xbox because Microsoft makes it.

00:01:00 ◼   ► Microsoft doesn't make Chrome. Oh god. Marco, I could not

00:01:04 ◼   ► agree with you more. I am right there with you, dude. Like, you might as well be using Windows.

00:01:08 ◼   ► Chrome is so bad. It's not Mac-like, but it is a good

00:01:12 ◼   ► web browser. It is not a Mac-like web browser, but it is a good web browser.

00:01:16 ◼   ► And its dev tools are still better than Safari's. Yeah, that you're probably right about.

00:01:20 ◼   ► I can't really say, but like, if you're not a web developer,

00:01:24 ◼   ► I don't understand why you would use Chrome for anything besides, I mean,

00:01:28 ◼   ► I guess I use it for like Google Docs. That's about it. It's like

00:01:32 ◼   ► ugh, I just, I don't like it. It's so wrong. Everything it

00:01:36 ◼   ► does on the Mac is just so wrong. Like, it just behaves

00:01:40 ◼   ► horribly. Nothing is where it should be. Not to mention

00:01:44 ◼   ► like all the battery life issues on laptops and stuff. It's just bad.

00:01:48 ◼   ► Yeah, I wouldn't use it on a laptop if I... Oh, it is so rough.

00:01:52 ◼   ► I mean, I do use it on a laptop all day, but my laptop is plugged in all day. But battery life,

00:01:56 ◼   ► forget it. It's brutal. But no, it loads all my web pages, and

00:02:00 ◼   ► sometimes Safari doesn't. It's like the unreliable keyboard. I just

00:02:04 ◼   ► need you to always load web pages. Sometimes Safari decides it is not going to do that anymore, and it makes

00:02:08 ◼   ► me angry. And I run both web browsers all day long. I'm always running

00:02:12 ◼   ► both. I'm never just running one. So it's not like I'm picking favorites, but

00:02:16 ◼   ► I like Chrome. I could not agree with you more, Marco. Like, Chrome

00:02:20 ◼   ► is so... I am not one of those people that's

00:02:24 ◼   ► super angry about things being not Mac-like. Like, Slack is a

00:02:28 ◼   ► sh*t show, and Chrome is probably second place for that.

00:02:32 ◼   ► Chrome is worse than Slack. Yeah, I agree, actually. It is less

00:02:36 ◼   ► Mac-like than Slack. Well, and because like Chrome, you have alternatives. Like,

00:02:40 ◼   ► Slack, it's like if you have to run Slack, you probably have to run it because

00:02:44 ◼   ► of a decision other people have made that you need to interact with. So it's fine.

00:02:48 ◼   ► Like, you know, you run it, you deal with it, it's no big deal. Whereas with Chrome, like,

00:02:52 ◼   ► that's less defensible. Like, you can just run Safari, and chances are

00:02:56 ◼   ► everything you need to do probably works in Safari. So like, why would you not run Safari?

00:03:00 ◼   ► Why are you running Chrome, oh god, it's so bad.

00:03:04 ◼   ► I gave you a reason because of those web browsers. Looking at this tweet that, just in one of our channels, also, seriously

00:03:08 ◼   ► update your Chrome installs. It sounds like a security thing. Some kind of security flaw in existing

00:03:12 ◼   ► Chrome. Yeah, that's why I tried to figure out how to update Chrome

00:03:16 ◼   ► for a good, like, two or three minutes before giving up and asking you guys.

00:03:20 ◼   ► The about box. Of course, why is this the about box? Every other update, every other,

00:03:24 ◼   ► so I, first I checked the Chrome menu for like a check for updates thing. Then

00:03:28 ◼   ► I went over to the help menu, because sometimes things put it in the help menu. Then I went to preferences,

00:03:32 ◼   ► which of course is not a real preference window, it's just this crazy URL that opens up the preferences

00:03:36 ◼   ► in the browser. And I'm scrolling through all these things that make no sense, like, and then it's like, well,

00:03:40 ◼   ► it's not here, I click on advanced, and it's nowhere in any of those either. Like,

00:03:44 ◼   ► for god's sakes, like, where the hell do you have to do this app?

00:03:48 ◼   ► I would never have thought to go to the about box. I would have done the exact same steps.

00:03:52 ◼   ► Uh, you just gotta know that. Whoever goes to the about box of anything.

00:03:56 ◼   ► So, Chrome is so aggressive about updates, though, like,

00:04:00 ◼   ► there should be an icon in your toolbar that's like a colored arrow, whether it's green or

00:04:04 ◼   ► yellow if you've been waiting a while, like, Chrome totally wants to update itself.

00:04:08 ◼   ► And will update itself whether you ask it to or not.

00:04:12 ◼   ► But if you need to do it in a hurry, either quit and relaunch, which I think will also do it,

00:04:16 ◼   ► or the about thing. Well, you can't even quit it anymore. You gotta, like, hold down

00:04:20 ◼   ► the quit button. The about, they don't even have an about window either, by the way, just in case

00:04:24 ◼   ► you think they're actually gonna pop up a dial. No, of course not. Like,

00:04:28 ◼   ► it's like, everything about Chrome is just a giant

00:04:32 ◼   ► middle finger to the Mac, but I like the Mac, so it's like a giant

00:04:36 ◼   ► middle finger to me. I hear ya.

00:04:40 ◼   ► I really do. Alright, let's start with some follow-up.

00:04:44 ◼   ► A lot of the internet wanted to write in and tell us

00:04:48 ◼   ► in generally very gentle ways that we are all idiots

00:04:52 ◼   ► and there is a fix for the springboard rearrangement

00:04:56 ◼   ► woes that Jon was talking about last episode. So, if you didn't

00:05:00 ◼   ► hear last episode or would like a brief recap, Jon was lamenting in the way that only Jon

00:05:04 ◼   ► can, and I mean that in the best possible way, that it is nigh impossible

00:05:08 ◼   ► to rearrange things using springboard, you know, using the

00:05:12 ◼   ► home screen on Apple devices these days. It is just an exercise in frustration from

00:05:16 ◼   ► top to bottom. And I was quietly and silently cheering along with Jon

00:05:20 ◼   ► as he made this entire rant because I could not have agreed more. However, I

00:05:24 ◼   ► forgot, and I bet Jon also knew this and also forgot, that there is a pro-level

00:05:28 ◼   ► maneuver to fix this problem. Jon, can you tell us about this?

00:05:32 ◼   ► I did not forget about this suggestion that many

00:05:36 ◼   ► people think is a better way. Some people said

00:05:40 ◼   ► easier, some people said less error prone, some people, you know, whatever. But

00:05:44 ◼   ► there is another way to rearrange things, which is to use two

00:05:48 ◼   ► hands. And you may be asking yourself if you think like me,

00:05:52 ◼   ► adding a second hand to the surface of the screen

00:05:56 ◼   ► does not make this operation any simpler. But their theory is

00:06:00 ◼   ► okay, it is more complicated but it is less error prone because yes, you have to put two

00:06:04 ◼   ► hands on the surface of your thing or at least be very dexterous with your one hand

00:06:08 ◼   ► and have one finger holding the icon and another finger swiping across or whatever.

00:06:12 ◼   ► But the advantage you get is that you do not have to hit the edge of the

00:06:16 ◼   ► screen, which is true, but now

00:06:20 ◼   ► like you are still hovering over, you are still, the

00:06:24 ◼   ► icon or icons, you can do multiple that you are holding, you are still hovering over the screens

00:06:28 ◼   ► as you swipe past them. And unlike the edge thing, you are not

00:06:32 ◼   ► guaranteed that you will advance to the next screen at the fastest possible rate

00:06:36 ◼   ► because you have to swipe a second time. So that gives you even more

00:06:40 ◼   ► time to perturb the icons on the screens that you are passing through.

00:06:44 ◼   ► And I think a multi-handed, multi-finger gesture actually is more

00:06:48 ◼   ► difficult and more likely to screw you up, especially if you foolishly

00:06:52 ◼   ► grab multiple icons because then when you accidentally drop those somewhere, it is all over.

00:06:56 ◼   ► So I do not think this actually makes things any easier. Yes, it is an alternate way

00:07:00 ◼   ► you can do it. It works a little bit better on the iPad where you have a chance of perhaps

00:07:04 ◼   ► sitting on a table or you have more space to put two hands or whatever, but

00:07:08 ◼   ► it does not change the fundamental problem which is that there is no undo

00:07:12 ◼   ► and it is very easy to accidentally mess up things that you did not want to mess up.

00:07:16 ◼   ► And then even when you get to where you want to go, there is a very small

00:07:20 ◼   ► ill-defined safe area where you can actually hover where it will not cause something

00:07:24 ◼   ► you do not want to happen. To me, like the multi-finger

00:07:28 ◼   ► drag and drop thing has the similar kind of

00:07:32 ◼   ► value proposition and also downsides in practice as

00:07:36 ◼   ► the rest of the iOS drag and drop system that was introduced in, what was it, iOS 11.

00:07:40 ◼   ► It adds a bunch of delays to things that used to not have delays like

00:07:44 ◼   ► tapping to get a menu in Safari or things like that or you know, it accidentally

00:07:48 ◼   ► starts a drag when you might not want to start a drag. See also, forced touch

00:07:52 ◼   ► which has similar problems. But it brought

00:07:56 ◼   ► the great advance of being able to hold down something

00:08:00 ◼   ► with one finger and use a second hand, but you can use a second finger

00:08:04 ◼   ► to like scroll a view or to navigate the interface such that you can drop

00:08:08 ◼   ► the thing with the first finger somewhere else in the interface. And it is great

00:08:12 ◼   ► that they added that to Springboard, but it has the same problem that that has everywhere which is that

00:08:16 ◼   ► not only is it a big delay to get into that mode and it is very error prone to enter

00:08:20 ◼   ► the mode or to not enter it depending on what you want to do, but once you are in the mode

00:08:24 ◼   ► it is also very error prone to move around with the second finger because a lot of times

00:08:28 ◼   ► what you do with the second finger when you think you are going to swipe or scroll, you actually end up

00:08:32 ◼   ► picking up a second item. And if that is what you want it to do, great, but

00:08:36 ◼   ► the problem with this whole system is that it is kind of unreliable and

00:08:40 ◼   ► as John said, very error prone. So in practice, you know, I have known about the second

00:08:44 ◼   ► finger trick since iOS 11 or whatever it was released

00:08:48 ◼   ► and I have been using it, but I would say I fail and it

00:08:52 ◼   ► does something I don't want it to do probably at least half the time that

00:08:56 ◼   ► I am actually trying to use it. And I have the, honestly I have the exact same error rate

00:09:00 ◼   ► with drag and drop on the iPad as well and the exact same error rate with

00:09:04 ◼   ► reordering things in Overcast. Like I had my own

00:09:08 ◼   ► drag handles before and then when this system came in, not only

00:09:12 ◼   ► did I want to implement the new system, but it also broke my hack that gave me drag handles

00:09:16 ◼   ► before, so I figured I was kind of forced to implement the new system. And

00:09:20 ◼   ► it is just like the rest of drag and drop on iOS, like I find it very error prone. And when it

00:09:24 ◼   ► works, it is great. Like when you can pick up one or two things and then scroll

00:09:28 ◼   ► with another finger, that is great. But in practice, it is

00:09:32 ◼   ► very error prone and does something I don't want it to do a lot of the time.

00:09:36 ◼   ► Yeah, you know, I had completely forgotten about it. And it is

00:09:40 ◼   ► funny, this is a tangent, but as I have been using my iPad Pro more

00:09:44 ◼   ► and more, I do really, really like it. But it is

00:09:48 ◼   ► apparent to me, even as I have adjusted a lot of my

00:09:52 ◼   ► workflows is overkill for what I am describing, but like

00:09:56 ◼   ► my process for doing things, it occurred to me just in the last

00:10:00 ◼   ► month or so when I was trying to like send a link to somebody

00:10:04 ◼   ► but I didn't have messages open or something like that, or maybe it was an image, I don't remember exactly

00:10:08 ◼   ► what I was doing, but I can, oh wait, wait, wait, I can tap and hold and that will start a drag

00:10:12 ◼   ► operation and then with my other hand, sound familiar, I can swipe up to get

00:10:16 ◼   ► the doc and open messages and then flick, not really flick, but kind of

00:10:20 ◼   ► drag the other thing that I picked up over to messages, drop

00:10:24 ◼   ► it there and be good. Which is actually really, really

00:10:28 ◼   ► nice and fairly intuitive once I thought about

00:10:32 ◼   ► what I needed to do, but because I grew up with an actual, well I shouldn't say an actual

00:10:36 ◼   ► computer, oh my god, please don't email me, but because I grew up with a traditional

00:10:40 ◼   ► oh god, because I grew up with a traditional computer,

00:10:44 ◼   ► it's just very foreign to the way I think and I'm trying to get better

00:10:48 ◼   ► about embracing the touch way of life

00:10:52 ◼   ► and I am getting better about it, but it's definitely a slow journey

00:10:56 ◼   ► for me that has taken longer than I expected.

00:11:00 ◼   ► So getting used to stuff like that, like this, you know, part of it is just

00:11:04 ◼   ► like you said, what you grew up with and what you are accustomed to

00:11:08 ◼   ► but there is another aspect of it, you can actually measure

00:11:12 ◼   ► people's performance with different operations and

00:11:16 ◼   ► certain things are more friendly to the way

00:11:20 ◼   ► people work than others. So to give an example of like

00:11:24 ◼   ► the original Mac and using a mouse, this comes up a lot when

00:11:28 ◼   ► someone digs up some old computer stuff, maybe in my attic,

00:11:32 ◼   ► maybe on eBay, the original Mac came with a

00:11:36 ◼   ► guided tour, it was a floppy disk, it was a guided tour, but it also came with

00:11:40 ◼   ► an audio cassette that you would play while the floppy disk was in because you can't fit

00:11:44 ◼   ► that much audio on a floppy disk, that would be madness. And one

00:11:48 ◼   ► of the first things they taught you on the guided tour was how to use the mouse and they had a little

00:11:52 ◼   ► animation and they showed when you move it on the horizontal surface of your desk

00:11:56 ◼   ► the cursor moves to match it and they had a little graphic that was showing that and the voice

00:12:00 ◼   ► is explaining it to you, because you had to explain to people how to use the mouse.

00:12:04 ◼   ► But touch is a much more direct interface where it's like, well, there's something

00:12:08 ◼   ► that looks like a button on the screen and we say hit the button and you just shove your

00:12:12 ◼   ► finger in, you know, and we all see with our toddlers how quickly

00:12:16 ◼   ► you don't really have to be taught that much about that once you realize

00:12:20 ◼   ► I can just put my MediPause on the screen, I can do something. That's an example of improving

00:12:24 ◼   ► an interface. Before there was an indirection, however slight

00:12:28 ◼   ► it might be and however easy it was for people to overcome it, but it was still an indirection.

00:12:32 ◼   ► Getting rid of that is better. But the same token, all these things we just

00:12:36 ◼   ► described with rearranging icons and starting drag operations and holding

00:12:40 ◼   ► your finger down and using another finger to swipe through, that's never going to get

00:12:44 ◼   ► more friendly than it is. That is inherently an

00:12:48 ◼   ► awkward error prone thing to do. And there's no amount of

00:12:52 ◼   ► culture or getting used to things that's going to make that a more friendly interface

00:12:56 ◼   ► than alternatives that don't require that kind of both mental

00:13:00 ◼   ► and physical gymnastics. It's just more difficult things for people

00:13:04 ◼   ► to do. It's not impossible. You can do it. You know, toddlers can learn how to do it as well. Like

00:13:08 ◼   ► you see a two year old doing the same operation. But all things being equal

00:13:12 ◼   ► compare that to an operation where you get to split the

00:13:16 ◼   ► task up into pieces. First set the icon aside. Next find

00:13:20 ◼   ► the destination. Then put the thing in. It's less error prone.

00:13:24 ◼   ► It may actually be mentally, there may be more cognitive load to do the multi-step

00:13:28 ◼   ► process because you have to sort of understand what you're going to do. But if you were to test people

00:13:32 ◼   ► for their error rates or whatever, you'd see that it's more error prone to do

00:13:36 ◼   ► the other thing. Especially if you tested a wide swath of humanity. This is a thing that Apple used to do

00:13:40 ◼   ► back in the day that they stopped doing Roundabout when

00:13:44 ◼   ► Steve Jobs came back. Which is, you know, you don't have to just have your

00:13:48 ◼   ► intuition and gut about what is better for

00:13:52 ◼   ► usability. You can test this. You can use science to determine.

00:13:56 ◼   ► Given a wide swath of people of varying ages and

00:14:00 ◼   ► abilities, whatever thing we're trying to make happen here, we want people to

00:14:04 ◼   ► be successful. We want them to be fewer errors. We want them to feel less frustrated. We want them to be able to accomplish

00:14:08 ◼   ► a task in a small amount of time. We want them to remember how to do

00:14:12 ◼   ► a task across a long period of time. You can pick what your goals are

00:14:16 ◼   ► and then you can test your interfaces against those goals and find out how miserably you're doing on them

00:14:20 ◼   ► and compare multiple approaches. Bruce Tognazzini

00:14:24 ◼   ► if I'm pronouncing his name right, has a, what, asktog.com or something.

00:14:28 ◼   ► He's got a website. You can go through all the old tests they did to figure out

00:14:32 ◼   ► to come up with the Mac interface. How many buttons should a mouse have? How should the menus work?

00:14:36 ◼   ► You know, all that stuff. Which it doesn't mean like once you test it

00:14:40 ◼   ► once that's it forever and ever because things get refined over time and we come up with improvements.

00:14:44 ◼   ► But you don't just have to guess about these things.

00:14:48 ◼   ► But Apple today tends not to do that much of that type of formal research.

00:14:52 ◼   ► More, you know, if you read about Ken Kachenda's book where they're like

00:14:56 ◼   ► doing that but in an informal way like amongst

00:15:00 ◼   ► other engineers in the hallway, "Hey, I tried this and here's how it felt" or whatever.

00:15:04 ◼   ► Which is better than nothing. Like if you read a lot of usability books, especially about web usability, they'll say

00:15:08 ◼   ► like it doesn't take much to get a, you know,

00:15:12 ◼   ► 60 to 70% of the value of usability testing. You don't need this big

00:15:16 ◼   ► complicated usability lab and a big one-way mirror and cameras on

00:15:20 ◼   ► people's faces and, you know, pulse monitors. You can just, informal testing with

00:15:24 ◼   ► your co-workers is much better than no testing.

00:15:28 ◼   ► But I would say, you know, there's still a place

00:15:32 ◼   ► for that sort of actual scientific testing to

00:15:36 ◼   ► come up with something better. Because right now the reason we have all these weird interfaces in

00:15:40 ◼   ► iOS is because there's nothing obvious and better.

00:15:44 ◼   ► Like if you want this capability, if you want to be able to do all these things, it's cool that you can

00:15:48 ◼   ► do them. It's awkward. But it's not obvious

00:15:52 ◼   ► how you would be able to do those same things with less

00:15:56 ◼   ► awkwardness and fewer errors, other than the things I just suggested, which is like

00:16:00 ◼   ► a shelf to put things on or using an interface on a

00:16:04 ◼   ► different computer.

00:16:08 ◼   ► On a personal computer. If you could use a mouse and a keyboard and a much larger

00:16:12 ◼   ► screen, I could rearrange Springboard and some holding areas and stuff.

00:16:16 ◼   ► And a trial commit interface, it would be much easier to rearrange

00:16:20 ◼   ► Springboard. Even iTunes was better, I think. But even that could be improved

00:16:24 ◼   ► upon. So I look forward to rearranging

00:16:28 ◼   ► the Springboard on our Apple Glasses in 2035,

00:16:32 ◼   ► being a much simpler, less error-prone experience.

00:16:36 ◼   ► Oh, God. Alright, speaking of simple and error-prone,

00:16:40 ◼   ► Apple supplier Corning is working on flexible glass for foldable displays.

00:16:44 ◼   ► There's a post on The Verge where this is discussed.

00:16:48 ◼   ► Apparently, someone from Corning, the CEO or R&D person, whatever,

00:16:54 ◼   ► has said, "Yeah, yeah, yeah, we're working on this foldable glass thing."

00:16:58 ◼   ► And they have a very fascinating GIF that they have provided that is at the top of the page

00:17:04 ◼   ► that I could watch all day. And there isn't too much to say here,

00:17:08 ◼   ► I don't think, other than this is, I guess, a subtle hint that

00:17:12 ◼   ► Apple, who uses Corning and their Gorilla Glass for iPhone displays,

00:17:16 ◼   ► Apple could, hypothetically, use this forthcoming

00:17:20 ◼   ► glass that they say is coming in the next couple of years for a foldable display, if they so choose.

00:17:24 ◼   ► So that's good news if you're into it. That's definitely an Apple-style thing to do

00:17:28 ◼   ► because, like I said at the last show, plastic, no matter how good that plastic is,

00:17:32 ◼   ► if you're constantly going to bend it, plastic is not known for its ability to be

00:17:36 ◼   ► bent back and forth many, many times and not show any signs

00:17:40 ◼   ► of wear. Same thing, plastic is not known for its ability to resist scratches,

00:17:44 ◼   ► like it's just generally a softer material than

00:17:48 ◼   ► glass or metal or other things. So there's kind of, you know,

00:17:52 ◼   ► there are many reasons that Apple settled on aluminum and glass for basically all of its products.

00:17:56 ◼   ► They have the properties that make the products

00:18:00 ◼   ► pleasant to use and stand up to wear and tear.

00:18:04 ◼   ► Plastic, less so. The original iPhone almost had a plastic display, but they

00:18:08 ◼   ► dodged that ball at the last minute. The iPod Nano did have plastic

00:18:12 ◼   ► over its display and that was very bad. So here's hoping

00:18:16 ◼   ► Apple can figure out the bendy glass because that would be a hell of a way to

00:18:20 ◼   ► enter the bendables market. Is that a thing? We got wearables

00:18:24 ◼   ► and bendables. I think foldables is what you're looking for. Isn't that what a mic and Jason... Bendables.

00:18:28 ◼   ► It's like phones that fold in half, bendy straws.

00:18:32 ◼   ► What else is in that market? iPhone 6 Plus. Ooh. Yeah, I guess.

00:18:36 ◼   ► Folding chairs. Yeah, I would love to

00:18:40 ◼   ► see if bendable glass can actually be a thing. I mean,

00:18:44 ◼   ► I am no expert in materials. That sounds impossible

00:18:48 ◼   ► to me. Transparent aluminum. But yeah, I mean... It could be worth something to you.

00:18:52 ◼   ► If it can be done, that sounds great because, you know,

00:18:56 ◼   ► I think it is a critical problem. You know, if folding

00:19:00 ◼   ► phones are going to take off, we are going to have to get over this issue of right now

00:19:04 ◼   ► all we know how to make the front of the screens out of is plastic and plastic kind

00:19:08 ◼   ► of sucks as screen material. Like, you know, it works. It's fine. But if we

00:19:12 ◼   ► can have glass, we'd rather have glass. And it makes a pretty big

00:19:16 ◼   ► difference in niceness if we can have glass. So that would be great.

00:19:20 ◼   ► But I mean, I'll believe it when I see it, I guess.

00:19:24 ◼   ► Computer? Computer. What was that? Star Trek 4?

00:19:28 ◼   ► Is that right? Marco hasn't seen it. That Star Trek

00:19:32 ◼   ► should not have worked. Now I'm going to get everyone emailing me about how it didn't work.

00:19:36 ◼   ► But I loved that one. I thought it was hilarious. Everybody loved that one. Really? Oh,

00:19:40 ◼   ► I assumed it was just me. It was universally beloved. But it shouldn't be.

00:19:44 ◼   ► It's terrible. It's a good movie that makes people happy. It is a good movie that makes

00:19:48 ◼   ► people happy. But can you just concede that if you look at the description of

00:19:52 ◼   ► "Oh, all these future people are going to come back in time to get some whales," like, come on.

00:19:56 ◼   ► It's fish out of water. It's beloved. Beloved characters.

00:20:00 ◼   ► Coming back there. And we get to see the

00:20:04 ◼   ► crew that we know and love being in a fish out of water type scenario.

00:20:08 ◼   ► And it's fun. Again, I agree with you. If you

00:20:12 ◼   ► were to look at it only on paper, I maintain that it should not have worked even though it did.

00:20:16 ◼   ► Bats aren't bugs and whales aren't fish.

00:20:20 ◼   ► Anyway, alright, moving on. We have

00:20:24 ◼   ► more riveting USB naming related news.

00:20:28 ◼   ► And this actually is kind of cool. Apparently USB 4

00:20:32 ◼   ► has been kind of announced in a way. And that is that

00:20:36 ◼   ► Thunderbolt 3 is not... patent encumbered isn't what I'm

00:20:40 ◼   ► looking for, is it? It is... the specification has been

00:20:44 ◼   ► made royalty free. There you go. And Intel has given the spec to

00:20:48 ◼   ► the USB Implementers Forum, which are the people that decide how USB works.

00:20:52 ◼   ► And so Thunderbolt 3 will eventually be called USB 4.

00:20:56 ◼   ► And that's actually really cool because that theoretically paves the way for what we

00:21:00 ◼   ► know as Thunderbolt today to be more universal and not require maybe a

00:21:04 ◼   ► Intel CPU. Hint hint Apple, hint hint.

00:21:08 ◼   ► Yeah, this is a smorgasbord of USB, Thunderbolt, and

00:21:12 ◼   ► naming stuff. So first the royalty free nature

00:21:16 ◼   ► we've covered that before. That's been a while coming. I guess this is the

00:21:20 ◼   ► one of the most prominent fruits of that labor. Second is that Intel is building

00:21:24 ◼   ► Thunderbolt and the new USB into its CPUs so that will make both

00:21:28 ◼   ► much easier to implement. You don't have to have a separate chip for it. If you get an

00:21:32 ◼   ► Intel CPU it's got it built in. It being open, anybody else could do the same thing.

00:21:36 ◼   ► Hint hint Apple could make ARM CPUs and build in Thunderbolt. And then

00:21:40 ◼   ► you have the USB 4 spec

00:21:44 ◼   ► being a superset of Thunderbolt 3 and all the USB 3.2 stuff

00:21:48 ◼   ► which makes sense. USB 4 is not here yet. USB 3.2 is like this year. USB 4

00:21:52 ◼   ► is like out next year somewhere. And then finally,

00:21:56 ◼   ► just to add a little bit more ridiculous naming,

00:22:00 ◼   ► all the other versions of USB were like USB space 2.0

00:22:04 ◼   ► USB space 1.1. But USB 4 removes the space between the

00:22:08 ◼   ► B and the number. So it's USB 4 because it has to be different.

00:22:12 ◼   ► Everything they do is like, it's so close

00:22:16 ◼   ► to good and they do something to make it either bad

00:22:20 ◼   ► or confusing or both. They're going to run out of variations.

00:22:24 ◼   ► What do they do for 5? Oh, Roman numerals. They haven't done Roman numerals yet.

00:22:28 ◼   ► So, USB V. Can't wait. There you go.

00:22:32 ◼   ► I have to keep saying it's pronounced 5.

00:22:36 ◼   ► Now this is very cool though. I am really enthusiastic about Apple being able to use

00:22:40 ◼   ► Thunderbolt 3/USB4 on their

00:22:44 ◼   ► forthcoming ARM computers. Am I right? Yeah, and Thunderbolt 4, I think

00:22:48 ◼   ► we talked about that before, but Thunderbolt 4 is also a thing. So I don't know if that has to be

00:22:52 ◼   ► in a separate chip, but seeing Thunderbolt built in to CPUs

00:22:56 ◼   ► and subsumed into USB means that it is much more likely to be

00:23:00 ◼   ► a part of everyone's future than it was before. Moving on,

00:23:04 ◼   ► we had talked last episode, I think it was in Ask ATP, about

00:23:08 ◼   ► hey, how do I know what my 32-bit apps are on my iPad

00:23:12 ◼   ► so if I upgrade this or update the software,

00:23:16 ◼   ► what am I going to lose? And we weren't entirely sure how to do this, but

00:23:20 ◼   ► unsurprisingly there is a post at iMore that describes exactly what to do,

00:23:24 ◼   ► which apparently is settings, general, about applications

00:23:28 ◼   ► and then in there it will show you an app compatibility screen that will

00:23:32 ◼   ► tell you which apps are no longer going to be compatible in the future.

00:23:36 ◼   ► Everything is in the settings somewhere.

00:23:40 ◼   ► That's why they have search. But the search doesn't work. The search never works. Yeah, exactly.

00:23:44 ◼   ► I think I've had the search work I think one time out of

00:23:48 ◼   ► the probably at least five or six times I have tried to use it to find something.

00:23:52 ◼   ► I don't know how they possibly implemented the search in settings

00:23:56 ◼   ► to make it so bad at finding things that I'm typing the exact name of.

00:24:00 ◼   ► Does it work for anybody? It works okay for me. It's kind of like the search

00:24:04 ◼   ► it reminds me of the search in System Preferences on the Mac, remember when they added that and they were

00:24:08 ◼   ► That actually works! Right, but it's hand-tuned. They added like, I think

00:24:12 ◼   ► attached metadata, like you could type wallpaper, which is not a word that Apple uses to describe

00:24:16 ◼   ► desktop background, but it would find that preference pane because they put a bunch of synonyms in.

00:24:20 ◼   ► But in iOS, like either

00:24:24 ◼   ► it's not hand-curated like that or they didn't do a very good job of attaching

00:24:28 ◼   ► metadata because you'll type a word that is a reasonable synonym for what you're looking for and it won't

00:24:32 ◼   ► find it. And as you pointed out, sometimes you'll type in a word that you think is an exact match and it still won't

00:24:36 ◼   ► find it. So I'm not sure what data it is searching across

00:24:40 ◼   ► but it's certainly not doing a full text search of all text that

00:24:44 ◼   ► appears on the screen in settings screens. No, like you can type literally

00:24:48 ◼   ► a word that is in the title and the thing you're looking for will not

00:24:52 ◼   ► show up. Like it isn't even like a failure of synonym search or a failure of

00:24:56 ◼   ► a spell check or anything like that. Like it's literally not indexing the words that

00:25:00 ◼   ► show up on screen. I feel like it doesn't go very deep. Like I remember I was looking for something that was like

00:25:04 ◼   ► three or four screens deep and it could never find it and maybe it just does like the first

00:25:08 ◼   ► two layers or something. I don't know. Anyway, once you have a search in your UI

00:25:12 ◼   ► it's probably a sign that something is amiss. I'm still not

00:25:16 ◼   ► entirely convinced that the idea that your settings are in a settings

00:25:20 ◼   ► application rather than within the apps themselves is long term

00:25:24 ◼   ► the way to go because settings just gets tremendous and it's not like

00:25:28 ◼   ► we haven't figured out ways to put screens

00:25:32 ◼   ► for configuring your applications within your application and most apps do it anyway. So

00:25:36 ◼   ► it's weird. Indeed. Cirilla writes that Microsoft

00:25:40 ◼   ► already has Xbox Game Pass which is a quote unquote Netflix for Games

00:25:44 ◼   ► service with millions of subscribers. I had no idea this existed

00:25:48 ◼   ► but I also have not owned an Xbox since the original Xbox way back

00:25:52 ◼   ► when. Yeah. What I was getting at on the last show which was not very well communicated was

00:25:56 ◼   ► like how different the phone game market is

00:26:00 ◼   ► than console games. Like PlayStation has something similar where you subscribe to PlayStation

00:26:04 ◼   ► Plus and you get like a bunch of free games each month. It's not the same thing as like a subscription

00:26:08 ◼   ► service but it is a subscription service but you don't get access to a ton of games

00:26:12 ◼   ► you get like one or two hand pick free games a month or whatever. But both of those things

00:26:16 ◼   ► like both Xbox and PlayStation have a large game

00:26:20 ◼   ► library of sixty dollar games of fifteen to sixty dollar

00:26:24 ◼   ► games that people want to play each of which is

00:26:28 ◼   ► you know significant and worthwhile.

00:26:32 ◼   ► Kind of like Netflix with a whole bunch of movies whereas Apple has

00:26:36 ◼   ► a collection of literally hundreds of thousands of

00:26:40 ◼   ► mostly very bad games that most people don't want to play

00:26:44 ◼   ► and a small collection of good games that are already either

00:26:48 ◼   ► selling well or getting people to download for free and then selling them in game

00:26:52 ◼   ► stuff. And I'm not sure your typical iOS gamer

00:26:56 ◼   ► feels like they would derive enough value from any

00:27:00 ◼   ► reasonable subscription because most people I see playing

00:27:04 ◼   ► games on their phones don't go through enough games

00:27:08 ◼   ► to make the subscription work. Because iOS games are so cheap

00:27:12 ◼   ► or free if the subscription was five dollars a month they'd be like why don't I just spend that

00:27:16 ◼   ► five dollars on games. I spend one dollar and fifty cents on games a month

00:27:20 ◼   ► and you want me to subscribe I guess I would have access to way more games

00:27:24 ◼   ► but history has shown that I only play three free games and

00:27:28 ◼   ► one ninety nine cent game and one fifty cent in app purchase

00:27:32 ◼   ► per month on average so it's harder to come out ahead

00:27:36 ◼   ► versus sixty dollar Xbox games where if I can get access to a huge library of sixty dollar Xbox

00:27:40 ◼   ► games it's easy to see how that math work out if you have enough time to play games.

00:27:44 ◼   ► I don't know, it remains to be seen. There could be some untapped market for people who want access

00:27:48 ◼   ► to a hundred thousand games of which they're going to play too but we'll see.

00:27:52 ◼   ► And this to me, this is just one more argument for why it makes

00:27:56 ◼   ► way more sense to have this as part of a bundle than to try to

00:28:00 ◼   ► sell it as a stand alone service because it like

00:28:04 ◼   ► you know I see why it makes sense on game consoles even then it isn't for everybody but like

00:28:08 ◼   ► I see why it makes sense for some people on game consoles but yeah like everything you said was correct

00:28:12 ◼   ► about the iOS market it's just so different for games that I don't

00:28:16 ◼   ► see people wanting to pay separately for this but

00:28:20 ◼   ► if it was part of a bundle they would think

00:28:24 ◼   ► aspirationally like that's great I would use that you know even if they don't end up

00:28:28 ◼   ► actually using it for much like it would add to the perceived value

00:28:32 ◼   ► of the bundle and it would help people justify purchasing the bundle if it includes

00:28:36 ◼   ► games and stuff you know and just all sorts of things that they may or may not actually use in practice whereas if you try

00:28:40 ◼   ► to sell it separately there's going to be a lot more like scrutiny on

00:28:44 ◼   ► that purchase and after even after they subscribe for the

00:28:48 ◼   ► people who do if they aren't really playing the games they'll be way more likely to cancel

00:28:52 ◼   ► that pretty soon whereas if it's part of a bundle they

00:28:56 ◼   ► aren't going to be scrutinizing every single part of that bundle every month to say

00:29:00 ◼   ► am I still really using this or not so again it's ever more reasons

00:29:04 ◼   ► why I think and hope this is all going to be

00:29:08 ◼   ► one big bundle rather than individual services

00:29:12 ◼   ► and interestingly I think they can like basically give away access to tons of games without

00:29:16 ◼   ► being afraid that they're going to end up paying out a huge amount of the subscription

00:29:20 ◼   ► fee to the developers because most games are free

00:29:24 ◼   ► and I can't imagine in-app purchases being part of the subscription because

00:29:28 ◼   ► that's the way they make all their money so you can get the

00:29:32 ◼   ► games for free but the games are probably free already anyway

00:29:36 ◼   ► maybe it'll open up a slightly larger market for a 99 cents game than exists now

00:29:40 ◼   ► but yeah once you know all the popular

00:29:44 ◼   ► games are free and then they get in there and you buy whatever thing they're making you buy in the game

00:29:48 ◼   ► and Apple can't allow that to be part of your $5 subscription

00:29:52 ◼   ► because everyone would subscribe just so they could play Candy Crush

00:29:56 ◼   ► without whatever limitations they put in your way. Just oh unlimited in-app purchase go go go

00:30:00 ◼   ► it breaks the whole model that they've

00:30:04 ◼   ► painted themselves into. It's not a thermal corner, what's a word other

00:30:08 ◼   ► than thermal? It's like a CINO corner. I don't know

00:30:12 ◼   ► it's the game market

00:30:16 ◼   ► on iOS is so strangely shaped from a historical perspective

00:30:20 ◼   ► it's fine that it works for Apple and people enjoy it but I'm not sure how

00:30:24 ◼   ► you could throw a subscription into there and it's almost like

00:30:28 ◼   ► like Margaret was getting at it. It seems valuable from the outside

00:30:32 ◼   ► but in reality it's pointless because no money really changes hands and it just

00:30:36 ◼   ► makes you feel better about a bill you're already going to pay anyway.

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00:32:32 ◼   ► I don't really

00:32:36 ◼   ► know what this next topic is about. So what we're going to

00:32:40 ◼   ► talk about is Apple and Nvidia. I know enough to know that

00:32:44 ◼   ► Nvidia and Apple used to be chummy and now they're not.

00:32:48 ◼   ► Because I am not someone who really cares about 3D cards and

00:32:52 ◼   ► fancy graphics cards and things of that nature, I've never really spent the time to

00:32:56 ◼   ► really dive in and understand the history here. But luckily

00:33:00 ◼   ► I have a John Saracusa that can tell me all about it. So John,

00:33:04 ◼   ► what's going on here? As we approach MacPro Day, which

00:33:08 ◼   ► could be today. It could be the day you're listening to this.

00:33:12 ◼   ► It's time to revisit this, especially in light

00:33:16 ◼   ► of semi-recent development.

00:33:20 ◼   ► We talked about Nvidia and Apple in the past and

00:33:24 ◼   ► particularly Nvidia's place in the 3D market.

00:33:28 ◼   ► They have had the best, fastest cards

00:33:32 ◼   ► for gaming for a long time. The lead

00:33:36 ◼   ► used to swap between Nvidia and ATI, AMD, and

00:33:40 ◼   ► whoever else every once in a while, but we've been in a long phase where Nvidia is in the lead.

00:33:44 ◼   ► They also have the most mindshare and market share in

00:33:48 ◼   ► AI applications with their CUDA language.

00:33:52 ◼   ► And for a long time Apple has not been including Nvidia

00:33:56 ◼   ► GPUs in any of its products. That's not that big of a deal

00:34:00 ◼   ► if Apple doesn't make any kind of computers that are focused on

00:34:04 ◼   ► gaming or really GPU intensive

00:34:08 ◼   ► AI, Pro 3D, machine learning, yada yada yada stuff.

00:34:12 ◼   ► But in theory the MacPro could be targeted at some of those markets.

00:34:16 ◼   ► And so it's an open question. Hey, this MacPro

00:34:20 ◼   ► Apple is going to learn from all its past mistakes. Is Nvidia

00:34:24 ◼   ► going to be an option on the new MacPro? Either from Apple or

00:34:28 ◼   ► separately. Like if you buy one but then you could upgrade the

00:34:32 ◼   ► card if the thing is indeed upgradable. And on that front you're like, well

00:34:36 ◼   ► if they make it any kind of computer with replaceable cards

00:34:40 ◼   ► Apple doesn't need to participate in that. They can ship it with an ATI

00:34:44 ◼   ► card, AMD card, I keep calling it ATI, whatever. Same company now. They can ship

00:34:48 ◼   ► it with an ATI card, but if it gets old or

00:34:52 ◼   ► you don't like it you can buy an Nvidia card and swap it in and you'll be fine. The wrinkle

00:34:56 ◼   ► there is you need drivers for it and Nvidia

00:35:00 ◼   ► in recent months and years has been very willing to write drivers for Mac OS

00:35:04 ◼   ► but they've hit a snag. And the snag is

00:35:08 ◼   ► that in the latest version of Mac OS, I forgot when they did this, they've been locking down kernel

00:35:12 ◼   ► extensions for a long time in Mac OS and the current iteration

00:35:16 ◼   ► basically, and this is a quote from Nvidia in one of their support forums

00:35:20 ◼   ► Apple fully controls drivers for Mac OS. Unfortunately

00:35:24 ◼   ► Nvidia currently cannot release a driver unless it is approved by Apple. That's not strictly

00:35:28 ◼   ► true. You could tell people to boot with a VRAM ARG that disables

00:35:32 ◼   ► the system protection and loads unsigned kernel extensions, blah blah blah. I think they could

00:35:36 ◼   ► get around it in that way, but that's not something people want to do and it's not really feasible for a consumer product

00:35:40 ◼   ► but what they're complaining about is that

00:35:44 ◼   ► you have to be like a licensed developer and you have to sign your kernel extension

00:35:48 ◼   ► and Apple has to co-sign it essentially to say "Yep, we're okay

00:35:52 ◼   ► with this kernel extension shipping." And for whatever reason, political

00:35:56 ◼   ► technical, bureaucratic, apparently Nvidia

00:36:00 ◼   ► can't get drivers for its latest GPUs to

00:36:04 ◼   ► go through the process that's required to get them to load on Mojave

00:36:08 ◼   ► Macs. And so this is upsetting for people to say like

00:36:12 ◼   ► "I can't even just buy, I can't do it on a Hackintosh, I can't take my old

00:36:16 ◼   ► Mac Pro and put in one of the new cards because there are no drivers for it."

00:36:20 ◼   ► And, you know, the Mac Pro

00:36:24 ◼   ► has a chance for Apple to fix all of its mistakes and to make a great new computer.

00:36:28 ◼   ► It's not the end of the world if they continue to have this vendetta

00:36:32 ◼   ► against Nvidia and say "We are just never going to deal with them." But

00:36:36 ◼   ► it is kind of a problem for Apple that Nvidia is the leader in so many different markets

00:36:40 ◼   ► and continues to have the "best cards"

00:36:44 ◼   ► for many different purposes. And Apple apparently not only

00:36:48 ◼   ► refuses to ship things in there but refuses to even let Nvidia do

00:36:52 ◼   ► all the work itself and ship things that can work with Macs. I hope that's not true.

00:36:56 ◼   ► I hope something else is going on and maybe behind the scenes they are working with Nvidia and these things will

00:37:00 ◼   ► come out with Nvidia cards and it will be great. Another possibility is that

00:37:04 ◼   ► ATI takes the lead again. They just released a new card

00:37:08 ◼   ► I think they were the first to market with a 7nm GPU.

00:37:12 ◼   ► The new architecture, new process,

00:37:16 ◼   ► it's impressive, but they did not take the lead. Like this new card

00:37:20 ◼   ► they came out with that's on a smaller process than Nvidia is currently shipping at

00:37:24 ◼   ► just barely matched an existing year old Nvidia card.

00:37:28 ◼   ► So ATI has not regained the performance lead. I think

00:37:32 ◼   ► this is actually a little bit of a problem. Obviously some of the stuff Nvidia does

00:37:36 ◼   ► competes with Apple and its metal initiatives and maybe this is all a mood if Apple starts making its own

00:37:40 ◼   ► GPU so who the hell cares about Nvidia and ATI. But in the world we live in today

00:37:44 ◼   ► a Mac Pro produced by a company that

00:37:48 ◼   ► refuses to have anything to do with Nvidia and also refuses to let Nvidia

00:37:52 ◼   ► ship anything that can work inside a Mac Pro is slightly lesser for it

00:37:56 ◼   ► and I really hope that's not how things turn out.

00:38:00 ◼   ► Of the many things that we'll all be watching for on Mac Pro Day, one of them is

00:38:04 ◼   ► does it ship with an Nvidia card and the second one is can someone put an

00:38:08 ◼   ► Nvidia card into it, a good modern Nvidia card into it after

00:38:12 ◼   ► the fact and have it work. We've heard

00:38:16 ◼   ► various rumblings and rumors and things from alleged employees for

00:38:20 ◼   ► years now about how there's this massive bad blood between Apple and Nvidia

00:38:24 ◼   ► and lots of reasons for it. The main reason I heard

00:38:28 ◼   ► stemmed from back a few generations ago Nvidia had those

00:38:32 ◼   ► GPUs and Mac Book Pros that died a lot and caused a lot of expensive repairs

00:38:36 ◼   ► for Apple and basically Apple blamed Nvidia, Nvidia blamed Apple and

00:38:40 ◼   ► Apple had to eat the bill for all that and kind of shunned Nvidia from all their product

00:38:44 ◼   ► and so if that is indeed the reason why we haven't seen a lot of Nvidia stuff

00:38:48 ◼   ► from Apple in the last few years, I think that's

00:38:52 ◼   ► a dumb reason. If there is bad blood between these companies

00:38:56 ◼   ► and it is within Apple's power to fix it

00:39:00 ◼   ► I think they should fix it because as you said

00:39:04 ◼   ► there's pretty strong demand from high end

00:39:08 ◼   ► GPU users for Nvidia support. By continuing

00:39:12 ◼   ► to not offer Nvidia GPUs, I think Apple

00:39:16 ◼   ► is hurting itself and its customers more than

00:39:20 ◼   ► whatever any dispute is worth.

00:39:24 ◼   ► The interesting part is it's not that Apple has to ship

00:39:28 ◼   ► Nvidia cards, they just need to not prevent their customers

00:39:32 ◼   ► from using Nvidia cards. That's a, like they've talked about how they're

00:39:36 ◼   ► changing their attitude about the Mac Pro and they're going to make the computer that pros want

00:39:40 ◼   ► but part of it is Apple's stance. The idea that Apple would

00:39:44 ◼   ► sell you a computer knowing that the people who buy it are

00:39:48 ◼   ► going to change it after they get it, whether that's

00:39:52 ◼   ► upgrades or even just component swaps, that

00:39:56 ◼   ► mindset which Apple used to have, that they would sell you a computer with the

00:40:00 ◼   ► expectation that whether it's you're going to buy third party RAM or you're going to buy a hard drive

00:40:04 ◼   ► from someone else and slap it in there or you're going to buy a second GPU and put it in

00:40:08 ◼   ► or you're going to replace the GPU that it comes with with a different one, selling you essentially a platform.

00:40:12 ◼   ► A modifiable platform. Obviously that's not

00:40:16 ◼   ► appropriate for laptops, for your iPhone, for a Mac Mini even.

00:40:20 ◼   ► But the whole point of the Mac Pro is to be different from those other computers.

00:40:24 ◼   ► It's different than an iMac Pro, different how? Because they sell it to you and it's got card slots

00:40:28 ◼   ► or expansion or whatever. I don't know if they're going to go that far. Maybe they're like, oh yeah

00:40:32 ◼   ► it's expandable but it's only expandable with Apple widgets.

00:40:36 ◼   ► You have to buy components from Apple and stick them in there and if Apple doesn't sell it, tough luck.

00:40:40 ◼   ► But I feel like that's leaving money on the table. If they really

00:40:44 ◼   ► want to be serious in the pro market, part of what makes something pro is the

00:40:48 ◼   ► idea that you can buy the chassis

00:40:52 ◼   ► and the guts and be able to upgrade components as you go along.

00:40:56 ◼   ► That's what you're paying all this money for, to have an upgradeable, reliable

00:41:00 ◼   ► sturdy core computer that you can augment and build

00:41:04 ◼   ► just the machine that you need for whatever you're doing. And again, that doesn't

00:41:08 ◼   ► require Apple to deal with Nvidia at all. All it requires is them to allow

00:41:12 ◼   ► Nvidia to do what it apparently wants to do, which is sell cards to Mac

00:41:16 ◼   ► users and write the drivers itself. And then it's between those customers and Nvidia.

00:41:20 ◼   ► If the drivers suck, then it's like anything else.

00:41:24 ◼   ► People used to sell like raid cards and their own video cards and their

00:41:28 ◼   ► own USB cards

00:41:32 ◼   ► for Macs that had an older version of USB. That's part of what makes

00:41:36 ◼   ► or part of what has historically made a Mac pro is the ability to do things like that. So this

00:41:40 ◼   ► situation where apparently Nvidia can't even get its drivers to work on Mojave because of

00:41:44 ◼   ► signing things, I really hope is some kind of misunderstanding.

00:41:48 ◼   ► On the bad blood front, the only company I can think of that Apple has had

00:41:52 ◼   ► worse bad blood with, if that makes sense, than Nvidia is Qualcomm.

00:41:56 ◼   ► And Apple's solution to that is they're going to make their own freaking modems.

00:42:00 ◼   ► Short term solution is we're going to have Intel do them. And long term is we're going to make them ourselves.

00:42:04 ◼   ► Which, fine, if Apple's short term solution is we're going to

00:42:08 ◼   ► use AMD ATI GPUs and all our stuff and our long term is I'll make

00:42:12 ◼   ► our own GPUs, fine, then do that. But right now, we don't know that that's the

00:42:16 ◼   ► plan. Right now we just see Apple about to release a Mac Pro

00:42:20 ◼   ► that before it's even released, smart money is that

00:42:24 ◼   ► it will not have GPU performance that is competitive with the best GPUs

00:42:28 ◼   ► offered in PCs. Yeah, it just seems so obvious to me

00:42:32 ◼   ► that this is, as you guys said, this is a problem that

00:42:36 ◼   ► from what we can tell, Apple needs to fix. And being

00:42:40 ◼   ► stubborn and petulant doesn't seem to do anyone a service.

00:42:44 ◼   ► It doesn't help the users, it doesn't help Apple, it doesn't really

00:42:48 ◼   ► help anyone. And I feel like

00:42:52 ◼   ► my perception of Apple is that they can be extraordinarily

00:42:56 ◼   ► stubborn and extraordinarily petulant if they so desire. And often times, not always,

00:43:00 ◼   ► but often times it's for at least understandable reasons, if not good reasons.

00:43:04 ◼   ► But geez, this time I don't think so.

00:43:08 ◼   ► From everything I know, which admittedly is little, it seems like they just need to

00:43:12 ◼   ► put this all to bed and start fresh. So

00:43:16 ◼   ► are you going to put an NVIDIA card in your forthcoming Mac Pro, Jon?

00:43:20 ◼   ► If it's possible to do so, I can imagine

00:43:24 ◼   ► doing that, because I have had multiple GPUs in

00:43:28 ◼   ► the Mac that's sitting right next to me right now, and I don't see why I wouldn't

00:43:32 ◼   ► upgrade the GPU in my future Mac Pro, assuming that's a thing that is possible.

00:43:36 ◼   ► And speaking of that, will you be able to configure that Mac Pro, Jon?

00:43:40 ◼   ► This is on the other end of the spectrum. This is a couple of old articles, I've got to look at the dates on these.

00:43:44 ◼   ► This was January, I believe. Yeah, one from Jason Snell

00:43:48 ◼   ► and then Gruber chimed in about it. But the end of configurable

00:43:52 ◼   ► Macs. Some of it is looking at the

00:43:56 ◼   ► products that Apple has released recently, and some of it is just tea leaf

00:44:00 ◼   ► reading and thinking about where all this is going.

00:44:04 ◼   ► I think Jason was mostly inspired by the MacBook Airs.

00:44:08 ◼   ► The fact that there's only one CPU option, which is

00:44:12 ◼   ► fairly unheard of for Apple laptops, usually.

00:44:16 ◼   ► They have a fast CPU and a regular CPU and they charge you a couple

00:44:20 ◼   ► hundred bucks to get a small amount of clock speed increase and people wonder whether

00:44:24 ◼   ► they should buy it. Sometimes they'll do like an i5 or an i7.

00:44:28 ◼   ► This has historically been a way for Apple to boost its margins because

00:44:32 ◼   ► they'll charge you a lot more than it costs them to get the

00:44:36 ◼   ► faster CPU, more RAM, more storage, so on and so forth.

00:44:40 ◼   ► On the iOS line of

00:44:44 ◼   ► computers or computing devices, there's configurability, but it is

00:44:48 ◼   ► along fewer axes. Mostly just storage. You can't

00:44:52 ◼   ► get an iPhone or an iPad with the faster CPU or more RAM.

00:44:56 ◼   ► Or if you do get more RAM, it's part of the more storage model.

00:45:00 ◼   ► I forget which one, the big iPad Pro I think had more RAM with

00:45:04 ◼   ► one terabyte of flash or whatever.

00:45:08 ◼   ► And so eliminating things that you can vary, like

00:45:12 ◼   ► you can get more storage but you can't get more memory, you can't get more CPU,

00:45:16 ◼   ► maybe you can't get anything at all, maybe this is just the way it comes.

00:45:20 ◼   ► It seems to be the direction Apple is going and so the

00:45:24 ◼   ► open question is, can we envision a future where

00:45:28 ◼   ► all of the Macs, except probably the Mac Pro and maybe the

00:45:32 ◼   ► iMac Pro, have

00:45:36 ◼   ► far fewer things that you can configure about them. Maybe color would still be in the mix

00:45:40 ◼   ► because that's the thing that everyone wants to pick, but that you wouldn't have a choice of CPU

00:45:44 ◼   ► across any of the Macs, except maybe the super duper Pro models.

00:45:48 ◼   ► MacBook, MacBook Pro, Mac Mini, all those would come with just one

00:45:52 ◼   ► CPU. It is the one and only CPU that they come with and it is a good one and it's made by

00:45:56 ◼   ► Apple, for example. It's all ARM CPUs, it comes with the, we went through this before,

00:46:00 ◼   ► the M11, the X12, whatever the heck letter and number

00:46:04 ◼   ► combination that Apple comes up with for the Macs. And all of the

00:46:08 ◼   ► MacBooks come with that. All of the MacBook Pros come with the M37

00:46:12 ◼   ► or whatever it is going to be. And you don't have a choice. There's not clock

00:46:16 ◼   ► speed differences, there's not, you can't get different amounts of RAM in them or whatever. Storage

00:46:20 ◼   ► I can imagine them still, you know, they need some

00:46:24 ◼   ► I feel like they need some dial that they can turn to charge people

00:46:28 ◼   ► more money so I can never imagine them being totally unconfigurable and just having one price

00:46:32 ◼   ► one product just because they make so much money by

00:46:36 ◼   ► charging you more for more storage. But other than storage

00:46:40 ◼   ► I can totally imagine, especially if Apple is making the CPUs on all of them

00:46:44 ◼   ► no longer doing what they have done when other people are making the CPUs which is

00:46:48 ◼   ► always getting, you know, different binned parts and charging you a couple of

00:46:52 ◼   ► extra hundred bucks for a minor percentage

00:46:56 ◼   ► clock speed increase. And not only can I see them doing that, I don't think

00:47:00 ◼   ► it would be that big of a deal. I mean, witness the new MacBook Air.

00:47:04 ◼   ► It only comes with one CPU, nobody cares. There wasn't even like a fake

00:47:08 ◼   ► controversy article about it. Like the best we got were these articles, which is like

00:47:12 ◼   ► hey look at this, they only offer one CPU on the MacBook Air.

00:47:16 ◼   ► Basically what Apple is revealing is nobody

00:47:20 ◼   ► like, it's not a thing that people want. Past MacBook

00:47:24 ◼   ► Airs you had choices of CPU speed and all it did was require the customers to

00:47:28 ◼   ► make another decision in the purchase process. They'd have to think, hmm, do I want this, do I want that

00:47:32 ◼   ► and probably the decision most of them made was, oh, minus $99

00:47:36 ◼   ► minus $200 minus whatever or like, you know, do I have to charge this much more

00:47:40 ◼   ► for some number decimal point to go up that I don't care about? Forget it, I'm skipping it.

00:47:44 ◼   ► And so I feel like this is an entirely safe thing to do

00:47:48 ◼   ► for CPU speed. Probably also a safe thing

00:47:52 ◼   ► to do for RAM. Again, they've done that before. I think there's some, is it MacBook Airs? Some Mac

00:47:56 ◼   ► models I think only come with one amount of RAM. The 12 inch only has one option. Yeah.

00:48:00 ◼   ► Like, I think that's mostly safe on the low end, especially

00:48:04 ◼   ► if they give you a reasonable amount. And that just leaves storage, which

00:48:08 ◼   ► is where Apple can put all their money by charging their normal exorbitant prices

00:48:12 ◼   ► for additional storage. And they will. So I'm

00:48:16 ◼   ► I think this is a reasonable prediction. I think we're already

00:48:20 ◼   ► most of the way there and I think it's both a good move and

00:48:24 ◼   ► no one will care about it. What do you guys think? Well, first of all, some real time follow up before everyone emails us. Apparently

00:48:28 ◼   ► the 12 inch now does come with configurable RAM up to 16 gigs.

00:48:32 ◼   ► It didn't when it first came out. The 12 inch? Really? Wow. Yeah, now the high end 12 inch

00:48:36 ◼   ► can go to 16. Yeah, that's been the case for at least a year, because mine is 16. I'm almost sure.

00:48:40 ◼   ► It hasn't updated for at least a year. Well, that's true. Actually, that's a very good point. What are you going to do

00:48:44 ◼   ► with all that RAM? I don't think the CPU can work its way through all that RAM. No reasonable amount.

00:48:48 ◼   ► Don't even get me started. I was just thinking to myself just a couple days

00:48:52 ◼   ► back. I still do love my little MacBook Adorable. It is a great

00:48:56 ◼   ► machine. It is exactly what I wanted in the sense that it is hyper portable more

00:49:00 ◼   ► than anything else. But holy crap is this thing slow.

00:49:04 ◼   ► Getting the iPad Pro was the worst mistake I've ever made when it comes

00:49:08 ◼   ► to continuing to enjoy my Adorable, because it's just painfully

00:49:12 ◼   ► slow. It really, really is. Like when I was not comparing

00:49:16 ◼   ► it to an iPad, it wasn't that bad. It didn't

00:49:20 ◼   ► seem that awful. Of course, it's slower than my iMac. You know, that's to be expected. But

00:49:24 ◼   ► holy cow, the iPad Pro is so much quicker than this thing.

00:49:28 ◼   ► So I'm kind of of the camp of bring on the ARM Macs, because clearly that will solve

00:49:32 ◼   ► all our problems. But to answer your question, do we

00:49:36 ◼   ► want configurable Macs? Ten-ish years ago, maybe a little

00:49:40 ◼   ► more than that, I would have been probably offended. And I choose that

00:49:44 ◼   ► word on purpose. I would have been maybe offended at not having any

00:49:48 ◼   ► choice as to CPU options and many, many RAM options

00:49:52 ◼   ► and storage options and this and that and the other. But now, I

00:49:56 ◼   ► mostly don't care. And I think Gruber's point at the very, very end of his

00:50:00 ◼   ► link to Jason's post, I think it's perfect. And I agree

00:50:04 ◼   ► with it. Gruber wrote, "I want Apple's system architects to do all the work to make the decision

00:50:08 ◼   ► for me to find the perfect balance." And I agree with that. I

00:50:12 ◼   ► think storage, especially while it's still pretty expensive, I think it makes

00:50:16 ◼   ► sense for that to be something that you can tweak. I'm

00:50:20 ◼   ► less convinced that RAM is also on that list. I kind of feel like

00:50:24 ◼   ► within financial reason, just dump as much RAM as you can into

00:50:28 ◼   ► these laptops until you can't anymore because it's just unaffordable.

00:50:32 ◼   ► Storage, it makes sense. I'd also love a configurable cellular radio.

00:50:36 ◼   ► But we know that's not going to happen. So... By the way, why not?

00:50:40 ◼   ► Why is that not going to happen? I know you're right, but just for the sake

00:50:44 ◼   ► of putting Apple's feet to the fire, you're like, "Why does cellular

00:50:48 ◼   ► seem like it's something that everyone is just okay with not happening?"

00:50:52 ◼   ► We have it in the iPad, and it's great. Other PC makers

00:50:56 ◼   ► have it in laptops, and it works for them. Why can't we have it in

00:51:00 ◼   ► Macs? That seems like... Well, let me tell you, Marco. It's because when I

00:51:04 ◼   ► try to tether to my phone from my Mac, you know, and I don't touch my phone,

00:51:08 ◼   ► it works flawlessly every time. It never has a problem.

00:51:12 ◼   ► Plus, everyone loves draining their phone batteries, right? Mm-hmm. That's right. And plus,

00:51:16 ◼   ► there's no mechanism for having like a software-based SIM card, so you'd have to

00:51:20 ◼   ► add another door to the laptop, because we haven't figured that out yet either.

00:51:24 ◼   ► But it's okay. Nobody has unlimited data plans. Those don't exist yet, and

00:51:28 ◼   ► definitely are not widespread. So I understand why they wouldn't want Macs to burn all your data.

00:51:32 ◼   ► Oh, God, I agree with you. Although, all kidding aside, where would you

00:51:36 ◼   ► put the little plastic piece for the cellular

00:51:40 ◼   ► antenna, though? Where do they put all the other antennas? Yeah, but I don't know.

00:51:44 ◼   ► I think they hide them in the hinge right now. They find places to put antennas,

00:51:48 ◼   ► because laptops are made out of metal, and they have a lot of wireless radios in them. So like, they

00:51:52 ◼   ► find places. This is a solvable problem. All of these are

00:51:56 ◼   ► solvable problems, and solved problems in many other devices,

00:52:00 ◼   ► including Apple's own devices. This is why

00:52:04 ◼   ► I'm just, it makes me so angry that they don't have cellular, because PC manufacturers

00:52:08 ◼   ► have been shipping cellular in laptops for over a decade. Apple has been shipping

00:52:12 ◼   ► cellular in iPads since the very first iPad, well, since 30

00:52:16 ◼   ► days after the very first iPad. But like, it blows my mind,

00:52:20 ◼   ► like, why? It would be so useful, and as

00:52:24 ◼   ► time goes on, we have more and more justifications

00:52:28 ◼   ► for it. It isn't like the need for cellular in laptops is going down

00:52:32 ◼   ► over time. It's actually going up over time, as more and more people, first of all,

00:52:36 ◼   ► want to avoid, like, you know, using public Wi-Fi, for God's sake.

00:52:40 ◼   ► You know, second of all, as like hotel Wi-Fi and everything gets

00:52:44 ◼   ► all crapped up with people trying to download the entire internet worth

00:52:48 ◼   ► of video all at once, and so it becomes, you know, decreasingly usable. And like,

00:52:52 ◼   ► again, and you have, you know, huge increases

00:52:56 ◼   ► of unlimited data plans, which neutralizes a lot of the

00:53:00 ◼   ► arguments that, like, Mac OS is not optimized for, you know, conserving

00:53:04 ◼   ► cellular data, which, by the way, is true, but is also

00:53:08 ◼   ► a solvable problem. Apple introduced the NSURLSession cellular

00:53:12 ◼   ► permission flags years ago, and those

00:53:16 ◼   ► same flags exist on Mac OS, and I don't know if Apple

00:53:20 ◼   ► knows about these yet, maybe, I don't know, but they could have rewritten all of their

00:53:24 ◼   ► apps to use these. So it's like, it's not, it isn't a big

00:53:28 ◼   ► deal, I don't think, to add support for this kind of stuff.

00:53:32 ◼   ► And again, over time, we have unlimited data plans becoming more and more common

00:53:36 ◼   ► anyway, and cellular carriers making it easier

00:53:40 ◼   ► and easier to add additional devices to your account that have cellular

00:53:44 ◼   ► modems besides just phones. Things like watches, smartwatches, iPads.

00:53:48 ◼   ► So, the reasons to exclude

00:53:52 ◼   ► cellular from Macs keep, you know, getting eroded away

00:53:56 ◼   ► over time, and there's all the more reason to, like, the only reason

00:54:00 ◼   ► you can say for not having it is, well, you can tether to your phone.

00:54:04 ◼   ► And yeah, that's true, but why do they have it in the iPad then?

00:54:08 ◼   ► If tethering to your phone is good enough, why have cellular in the iPad?

00:54:12 ◼   ► The reason why is because it's way, way better

00:54:16 ◼   ► than tethering, and there's lots of reasons to do it besides

00:54:20 ◼   ► just tethering, and the same things all apply to laptops.

00:54:24 ◼   ► So for God's sake, put cellular in laptops. Anyway,

00:54:28 ◼   ► sorry for this massive interruption. Please continue with upgradeable Macs.

00:54:32 ◼   ► So, I have to ask you and continue your interruption, because I agree

00:54:36 ◼   ► with you, if you had to choose only SD card slot, have I asked you

00:54:40 ◼   ► this already? SD card slot or cellular radio, what do you choose?

00:54:44 ◼   ► Cellular, no question. I would use it more often, and it's harder to add later. Fair enough.

00:54:48 ◼   ► I agree with you. I'm not going to argue, but I'm slightly surprised, because I know

00:54:52 ◼   ► you really, really miss your SD card slot, so. I do, but I

00:54:56 ◼   ► would use cellular a lot more. Like, because I have it on my iPad. I use it all the time.

00:55:00 ◼   ► And there's lots of places where, like, you know, I would take my laptop, but I end up taking the iPad

00:55:04 ◼   ► because I know it'll be easier to just quickly get online and check stuff on the iPad because it has

00:55:08 ◼   ► built-in cellular. But I would like to use my MacBook for a lot more of those things.

00:55:12 ◼   ► Anyway, so, regarding upgradeable Macs,

00:55:16 ◼   ► I do have a small rant on this, too. I think

00:55:20 ◼   ► people are really bad,

00:55:24 ◼   ► and I mean this, I know lots of people, I'm friends with people,

00:55:28 ◼   ► but people are really, really bad in general at

00:55:32 ◼   ► estimating or guessing or deciding which hardware

00:55:36 ◼   ► features or upgrades on a computer purchase are going to be useful and important

00:55:40 ◼   ► and necessary for them, and which ones are worth the money and which ones aren't for them.

00:55:44 ◼   ► I can't blame people for this, because it's,

00:55:48 ◼   ► these things are marketed in certain ways that make you think that you need certain things

00:55:52 ◼   ► or that certain things will be insufficient for you and you need to upgrade X, Y, or Z

00:55:56 ◼   ► to, in order to do application, you know,

00:56:00 ◼   ► A, B, or C, the reality is many, many, many of these

00:56:04 ◼   ► upgrades that they sell you are things that you don't actually need or that have

00:56:08 ◼   ► way less of an impact on actual usage than

00:56:12 ◼   ► you might think. And CPUs, I think, are

00:56:16 ◼   ► the number one offender here. And this doesn't apply to all the product lines. Like the ones,

00:56:20 ◼   ► the product lines where you have meaningful differences in, say,

00:56:24 ◼   ► the number of cores between different options. Like the iMac Pro, you can

00:56:28 ◼   ► spec the iMac Pro from, what's the base model, six cores? All the way up to

00:56:32 ◼   ► 18. You know, there's a massive difference in core count there.

00:56:36 ◼   ► Even then, it's not a linear increase in performance, because the clock speeds

00:56:40 ◼   ► come down as the core count goes up, but you still do get a substantial

00:56:44 ◼   ► improvement in performance between those low-end options and those high-end options

00:56:48 ◼   ► for, you know, things like the iMac Pro or the Mac Mini, where you have

00:56:52 ◼   ► huge differences in CPUs that are available to you. But in most of the products,

00:56:56 ◼   ► and especially the portable products, and this is because of power constraints,

00:57:00 ◼   ► the difference between the lowest-end CPU offered and

00:57:04 ◼   ► the highest-end CPU offered, the difference in performance is usually very small.

00:57:08 ◼   ► Way smaller than you would think from the numbers that are on the page.

00:57:12 ◼   ► And it's usually on the range of like 10 to 25 percent,

00:57:16 ◼   ► maybe. And so you might be paying like $300 extra

00:57:20 ◼   ► to improve your CPU performance by 15 percent.

00:57:24 ◼   ► And it seems like it'd be more than that, but the numbers that are on screen, but because of things like

00:57:28 ◼   ► turbo boost and thermal limits and power limits, it actually ends up being

00:57:32 ◼   ► less than you think in practice. But people tell themselves

00:57:36 ◼   ► wonderful marketing lies, like, "I want to be doing video editing,

00:57:40 ◼   ► and so I have to get the absolute highest-end thing possible."

00:57:44 ◼   ► And it often has very little relation to what their actual hardware needs are in practice

00:57:48 ◼   ► and what the thing that they're saying will actually use in practice

00:57:52 ◼   ► and will actually need in practice, or the difference it'll actually make. And so many

00:57:56 ◼   ► people are totally fine for their needs to be solved by the lowest-end

00:58:00 ◼   ► option in a lineup, or at best the mid-range option in a lineup.

00:58:04 ◼   ► CPU-wise. RAM-wise, I find

00:58:08 ◼   ► I don't even know how much RAM to buy when I buy computers.

00:58:12 ◼   ► Let alone, I can't even imagine how other people make this decision.

00:58:16 ◼   ► And I think it's based on the same kind of voodoo. It's like, "Well, I want to edit

00:58:20 ◼   ► video, so I guess I'll get the biggest." Or, "I'm only browsing

00:58:24 ◼   ► the web most of the time, so I'll get the smallest." And the reality is,

00:58:28 ◼   ► how are people supposed to know whether they need 8 or 16 gigs of RAM?

00:58:32 ◼   ► If I can't even tell you whether I need 8, 16, 32, or 64,

00:58:36 ◼   ► I have no idea. I usually get something near the middle because

00:58:40 ◼   ► I can, and I figure I'll probably use it. But I don't know what I'm actually

00:58:44 ◼   ► using. How can anyone else know? And the reality is, I have

00:58:48 ◼   ► used high-end Macs, like this wonderful iMac Pro I'm using now that has

00:58:52 ◼   ► pretty high specs, and I've used mid-range Macs, like my MacBook Pro

00:58:56 ◼   ► which has, you know, it's a 13-inch MacBook Pro, it has nice mid-range specs

00:59:00 ◼   ► there, and I've used the 12-inch MacBook.

00:59:04 ◼   ► And the crappier one, like the, I think it was the second generation one that I used

00:59:08 ◼   ► briefly, I felt some difference between them with the

00:59:12 ◼   ► things I did, but it wasn't like, it wasn't as big

00:59:16 ◼   ► of a difference in most operation as most people think.

00:59:20 ◼   ► Like my MacBook Pro, which, you know, by the numbers

00:59:24 ◼   ► should be like a quarter of the speed of my iMac Pro, isn't

00:59:28 ◼   ► actually that much slower. In the things I do, even things like building overcast from scratch in

00:59:32 ◼   ► Xcode, it's not that much slower than the iMac Pro. When I was testing the Mac Mini,

00:59:36 ◼   ► that, I found the same thing, like, you would expect the Mac Mini to be a lot

00:59:40 ◼   ► slower than the iMac Pro, but it wasn't that much slower. It was only, it was like,

00:59:44 ◼   ► it matched it in CPU performance for the things I was actually doing, and it was

00:59:48 ◼   ► just slower in a few other ways. But like, you know, so people are

00:59:52 ◼   ► really bad at guessing what they need and

00:59:56 ◼   ► what they should spend their money on for upgrade budgets and everything, and I think

01:00:00 ◼   ► the two worst areas of that are CPU and RAM. So if Apple is

01:00:04 ◼   ► removing CPU customizability from low-end

01:00:08 ◼   ► and/or thermally constrained products, that's fine.

01:00:12 ◼   ► Because the fact is, we don't have that much choice there now.

01:00:16 ◼   ► We just have different ways to spend arbitrary amounts of money to get performance gains that are actually

01:00:20 ◼   ► way smaller than we think that we probably won't even notice. RAM

01:00:24 ◼   ► is a little more noticeable if you get it wrong,

01:00:28 ◼   ► but the base model RAM in most of these machines is what most people buy anyway, and it's

01:00:32 ◼   ► fine. You know, we have SSDs now, so running out of RAM when you have an SSD

01:00:36 ◼   ► is a lot less of a performance penalty than it used to be when you had spinning disks.

01:00:40 ◼   ► And so, if we're getting less configurability

01:00:44 ◼   ► in these two areas, that's fine.

01:00:48 ◼   ► For most products in the lineup, that's fine. Now, that is not fine for something like an

01:00:52 ◼   ► iMac Pro, where the potential range of processor options and the

01:00:56 ◼   ► potential range of RAM amounts is way bigger, and you have more

01:01:00 ◼   ► outliers at the high end because these are like pro machines for pro workloads and everything

01:01:04 ◼   ► and who knows what pros need. So anything that is targeting a high-end

01:01:08 ◼   ► use where thermals and cost aren't necessarily constrained

01:01:12 ◼   ► very much, it makes sense to offer huge options.

01:01:16 ◼   ► Whatever the chipset can handle, whatever the power can handle, offer the biggest options you can

01:01:20 ◼   ► and give people a range to pick from. But as you get further down the line, when you're in the smaller

01:01:24 ◼   ► products, like especially the small laptops, it totally makes sense

01:01:28 ◼   ► to just lock in like one CPU option, one or two

01:01:32 ◼   ► amounts of RAM, and then whatever storage customizability you can afford

01:01:36 ◼   ► to put in there. Because those are the things, like the CPU matters

01:01:40 ◼   ► almost not at all when you're deciding between like, like the

01:01:44 ◼   ► 12 inch is offered in three different CPUs. If you actually look at the difference

01:01:48 ◼   ► between those three, it's very, very small. Why? Why

01:01:52 ◼   ► is it three different CPUs? The answer is Apple wants free money, right? Like that's basically what

01:01:56 ◼   ► it is, and so does Intel, right? Because some of it's them. But like the reality is

01:02:00 ◼   ► like if somebody has the top end, what is it, the 1.4

01:02:04 ◼   ► gigahertz processor? Yeah, the top end, the 1.4.

01:02:08 ◼   ► If you substituted that out for the 1.2, the base model,

01:02:12 ◼   ► I bet they wouldn't even notice. I bet almost

01:02:16 ◼   ► no one who has the 1.4 would notice if you swapped it out for the 1.2.

01:02:20 ◼   ► And that's a $250 premium option. The fact is

01:02:24 ◼   ► like at these, with the small processors, the small laptops, the small thermal envelopes,

01:02:28 ◼   ► this stuff doesn't matter. So, fine, with the new Air,

01:02:32 ◼   ► we have one option. I have heard zero buyers of

01:02:36 ◼   ► the new Air and zero potential buyers of it complain that there is only

01:02:40 ◼   ► one CPU option. Literally none, I've heard it from none of them.

01:02:44 ◼   ► And you know, same thing, I don't know if the RAM's configurable, is it? But if it is, like

01:02:48 ◼   ► that's a lot less important as well. Storage doesn't make

01:02:52 ◼   ► a lot of sense to have configurable because storage is something that is

01:02:56 ◼   ► hugely variable in people's needs and is extremely

01:03:00 ◼   ► expensive. So you can't just put in the biggest amount of storage and call it a day

01:03:04 ◼   ► because that would drive the price of the machine way too much. So that makes sense.

01:03:08 ◼   ► And also storage is a hard limit. With a CPU

01:03:12 ◼   ► you can edit video on a 12 inch MacBook. It'll just take

01:03:16 ◼   ► longer. Yeah, it just takes longer.

01:03:20 ◼   ► You can do it and it's a soft limit. You'll just be delayed.

01:03:24 ◼   ► But it still has the same capability. You can still do the task

01:03:28 ◼   ► you want to do, it'll just take longer. RAM, similar.

01:03:32 ◼   ► You can still do most things you want to do, whether you have 8 gigs or 16, it'll

01:03:36 ◼   ► just take a little bit longer if you don't have the high amount. Storage is a hard wall.

01:03:40 ◼   ► You can't just fill your hard disk up bigger if you just do it more

01:03:44 ◼   ► slowly. You don't get more space by filling it up slowly.

01:03:48 ◼   ► And so that's one thing where it matters a lot more to have

01:03:52 ◼   ► that be, to give that a high ceiling for people to configure.

01:03:56 ◼   ► And because it's so expensive you can't just give everybody the same high ceiling.

01:04:00 ◼   ► So, yeah, I'm on board with this. There really hasn't

01:04:04 ◼   ► been an area that Apple has removed customizability

01:04:08 ◼   ► from recently that I have really run into as a real

01:04:12 ◼   ► problem. I do have problems with other things that Apple makes non-customizable.

01:04:16 ◼   ► Like the fact that they use the same keyboard for all of their computers.

01:04:20 ◼   ► That I have a big problem with. But that has never been customizable.

01:04:24 ◼   ► That Apple has, as long as I have been an Apple

01:04:28 ◼   ► customer, which was since the PowerBook G4, they have

01:04:32 ◼   ► used the same keyboard in all of their laptops.

01:04:36 ◼   ► I never thought that Apple would introduce third party keyboard support for their laptops, but then they did it!

01:04:40 ◼   ► Right, like

01:04:44 ◼   ► We used to think that about iOS and they actually added a third party, "Oh, like a third party keyboard?"

01:04:48 ◼   ► No, they'll never do that. For the RAM question, if you're wondering how much RAM

01:04:52 ◼   ► you should have or whatever, we all know this as developers

01:04:56 ◼   ► but customers probably don't, but iOS

01:05:00 ◼   ► started as a RAM constrained environment. It was a very

01:05:04 ◼   ► different fitness criteria for applications than iOS.

01:05:08 ◼   ► So iOS devices can get away with a fixed, very small amount of RAM.

01:05:12 ◼   ► The Mac has a different history. And yes, even with all those iOS apps coming

01:05:16 ◼   ► over to the Mac, that's not going to change anytime soon. So I would

01:05:20 ◼   ► say on the Mac, if you're wondering whether you should get 8 or 16,

01:05:24 ◼   ► if you're going to run a web browser plus Slack plus one other app, get 16.

01:05:28 ◼   ► Because if you haven't looked at Activity Monitor

01:05:32 ◼   ► lately, just look at how much RAM your Chrome tabs

01:05:36 ◼   ► and Slack are taking by themselves. It is obscene how much RAM they take.

01:05:40 ◼   ► Not the virtual memory. Measuring memory is very complicated. There's no one

01:05:44 ◼   ► thing you can look at and add up in numbers and come up with a thing that's saying it's very, very complicated.

01:05:48 ◼   ► And yes, SSDs are way faster than spinning disks, so it's much

01:05:52 ◼   ► less important than it used to be, but SSDs are still way slower than RAM.

01:05:56 ◼   ► So if you ever have a choice between 8 and 16, and you can stomach

01:06:00 ◼   ► Apple's prices, which are ridiculous for that extra 8, get

01:06:04 ◼   ► the 16. But you don't need 32 unless you know you need 32. So

01:06:08 ◼   ► that's the tricky part with RAM, is that even on the low-end models, if Apple

01:06:12 ◼   ► standardized on 8, it would be bad. If Apple standardized on 16 right now,

01:06:16 ◼   ► that would be fine. So whatever the inflation adjusted equivalent of 16 is,

01:06:20 ◼   ► they would have to revisit that number once in a while, but 16 is fine for

01:06:24 ◼   ► pretty much everybody. But 8, it's not

01:06:28 ◼   ► you don't have to be running fancy applications to use up

01:06:32 ◼   ► all of 8. And then you're swapping to an SSD, and yes, it's fast, but it is not

01:06:36 ◼   ► as fast as RAM. But I'm also eager with everything else that Marco said. And it's making me

01:06:40 ◼   ► think... Real-time follow-up, I'm currently, apparently I have

01:06:44 ◼   ► 64 gigs of RAM in my iMac Pro.

01:06:48 ◼   ► And I'm currently using 39 gigs.

01:06:52 ◼   ► What are you running?

01:06:56 ◼   ► Things have dots under them in the dock.

01:07:00 ◼   ► Oh boy, how much time do you have? Finder, Mail, Messages,

01:07:04 ◼   ► Safari, Things, iTunes, TextMate, Chrome,

01:07:08 ◼   ► Xcode, Dash, Terminal, Tower, Slack, Preview,

01:07:12 ◼   ► Calendar, Notes, Silver, Numbers, Tweetbot, Photos, ReadKit,

01:07:16 ◼   ► AudioHijack, Colloquy, Skype, and Activity Monitor.

01:07:20 ◼   ► So that's a lot of apps. But you're just over the threshold

01:07:24 ◼   ► of a 32, so you wouldn't be fixed, fit into a 16.

01:07:28 ◼   ► I'm only using around 8. I am running Safari, BB Edit,

01:07:32 ◼   ► Terminal, Colloquy, Chrome, and

01:07:36 ◼   ► Slack. And AudioHijack and Skype.

01:07:40 ◼   ► But there is a gig of swap in use, and

01:07:44 ◼   ► I closed all of them. I don't actually have a lot of windows or tabs open at this point

01:07:48 ◼   ► because I closed everything down when I podcast for the most part. But anyway, yeah.

01:07:52 ◼   ► 8 is a little bit too little to have breathing room.

01:07:56 ◼   ► Especially when... There's another reason people spend the extra money for the faster CPUs.

01:08:00 ◼   ► They feel like it's going to give them more longevity out of the machine. And it might, but RAM will give you much

01:08:04 ◼   ► more longevity than CPU will. Because there's some,

01:08:08 ◼   ► you know, say you bought RAM not knowing that Slack would come into existence, then it

01:08:12 ◼   ► becomes an important part of your life, and you just realized how much of a RAMPig it was going to be and the fact that it's going to

01:08:16 ◼   ► be running all the time and potentially has a memory leak. On the Mac, that's the

01:08:20 ◼   ► type of thing that can happen. On iOS, it can happen because anything that was that much of a RAMPig would never

01:08:24 ◼   ► run for more than 60 seconds at a time before being killed.

01:08:28 ◼   ► What the hell is Adobe Desktop Service? It's half a gig right there.

01:08:32 ◼   ► Yep. What column are you looking at? You can't really... This is the

01:08:36 ◼   ► memory. You have to look at real memory.

01:08:40 ◼   ► Real memory? Okay. Memory is the virtual memory. But even real memory, it's not... You can't just

01:08:44 ◼   ► add up all those numbers. It's way... Wait. Real memory is way more than memory for some of these.

01:08:48 ◼   ► Like it says photos, 4.5 gigs. But real memory is 4.5.

01:08:52 ◼   ► Memory is 730 megs. I don't know.

01:08:56 ◼   ► I thought memory was V size and real memory is RSS in PS parlance.

01:09:00 ◼   ► Yeah, see, it's very hard to actually know, like, how much RAM

01:09:04 ◼   ► is an app actually using because it isn't that simple.

01:09:08 ◼   ► Real memory says R size, which itself is a complicated concept when you mouse

01:09:12 ◼   ► over it. Private memory is R...

01:09:16 ◼   ► I think I did... I tried to do an article about this once. Explain

01:09:20 ◼   ► exactly how RAM is divvied up and, like, there is

01:09:24 ◼   ► no number you can get out of PS where you can add up a bunch of things

01:09:28 ◼   ► and get two values that's like, here's how much is in the RAM

01:09:32 ◼   ► and here's how much is in the SSD. You'd have to

01:09:36 ◼   ► go page by page and figure out who's sharing this page from this shared library and is it

01:09:40 ◼   ► in RAM. Like, you'd have to dump the whole page table. It's ridiculous. Anyway,

01:09:44 ◼   ► it's very difficult to express this to users, but you do know when swap is in use because you

01:09:48 ◼   ► can see things getting paged in and out and you can feel things getting slower.

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01:11:48 ◼   ► Anyway, your discussion before of like cellular

01:11:52 ◼   ► and the configurability of laptops and everything, is making me think

01:11:56 ◼   ► of something I've been thinking about for a couple weeks now, but I haven't been able to come up with a good visualization

01:12:00 ◼   ► so I suppose people can make a bunch of charts and then spam them at us.

01:12:04 ◼   ► And I just wrote it in the thing,

01:12:08 ◼   ► the notes doc to remind myself to talk about it as the MacBook hierarchy

01:12:12 ◼   ► of needs, but it's not really a hierarchy, it's not really what I'm thinking of. It's like

01:12:16 ◼   ► so, new laptops. New laptops are coming. We're all excited about them.

01:12:20 ◼   ► There's a bunch of things that could potentially come in new laptops.

01:12:24 ◼   ► And I was visualizing them as kind of like an

01:12:28 ◼   ► ordered list, and as you go down the list,

01:12:32 ◼   ► like if you went down the whole list, it's a short list, it's maybe like 5 or 10 things,

01:12:36 ◼   ► probably less than 10 things. If everything on the list appeared

01:12:40 ◼   ► like in the new laptops, you'd be like, these are the best laptops ever.

01:12:44 ◼   ► Apple is amazing. And if none of them appeared, you'd be super mad

01:12:48 ◼   ► because they didn't fix anything, they're still crappy like they are now.

01:12:52 ◼   ► And it's a ranked list, so the top item

01:12:56 ◼   ► is the one that you say Apple has to do this, this is the most important thing for them to do.

01:13:00 ◼   ► And the second one is like, oh here's the second most important. And you have to decide

01:13:04 ◼   ► as you go down the list, sort of like a color coding, at what point do you draw a line

01:13:08 ◼   ► and say, this is the line of acceptability, like let's say.

01:13:12 ◼   ► Where if they do this one or these two or these three things,

01:13:16 ◼   ► they will have acceptably addressed the shortcomings of the current laptops.

01:13:20 ◼   ► And then there's the next line which is like, if they do these four

01:13:24 ◼   ► or these five things, they will have really good laptops. And then if they do

01:13:28 ◼   ► these six or seven, they will have great laptops. And if they do eight, nine, and ten, they have the best

01:13:32 ◼   ► laptops ever. And I'm sure we all have different

01:13:36 ◼   ► lists, but I can imagine a diagram and sort of like

01:13:40 ◼   ► a temperature bar thing or color again. What I'm referring to by the way with the MacBook

01:13:44 ◼   ► hierarchy needs is Maslow's hierarchy of needs, which is actually kind of inverted where

01:13:48 ◼   ► it's like the basic things that everybody needs is

01:13:52 ◼   ► like, what is it, safety is the bottom? No, actually

01:13:56 ◼   ► the Wikipedia page says psychological is the bottom need. Anyway,

01:14:00 ◼   ► there's safety, then there's love and belonging, then there's esteem and there's self-actualization.

01:14:04 ◼   ► So you need safety, because if you don't have safety, if you don't have physical safety, who's

01:14:08 ◼   ► worried about self-actualization, right? That's the idea, that there's certain things you need to address

01:14:12 ◼   ► because they're like serious concerns and you can't worry about the other things until

01:14:16 ◼   ► you address that. But as you go up in the Maslow's hierarchy of

01:14:20 ◼   ► needs, you get to things that are sort of more nice to have

01:14:24 ◼   ► or at the very top is like, I've got everything else going on in my life and

01:14:28 ◼   ► my final thing is self-actualization, right? So the inverted version

01:14:32 ◼   ► of that in the MacBook hierarchy of needs is I'm assuming we can all agree number one is keyboard.

01:14:36 ◼   ► And I would say if you have to subdivide that, you

01:14:40 ◼   ► would say keyboard reliability, because you can't start addressing key layout or

01:14:44 ◼   ► key feel or anything else you care about keyboards until you do reliability, right?

01:14:48 ◼   ► And then we can start arguing about what number two and three and four are, but I think the most

01:14:52 ◼   ► interesting part there is where would you draw the line? Like

01:14:56 ◼   ► let's say the line of acceptability where they introduce new MacBooks

01:15:00 ◼   ► and the new MacBooks have a reliable keyboard, right, as determined over the next

01:15:04 ◼   ► six months or whatever. Do you draw a line right after that and say

01:15:08 ◼   ► they will have crossed the line of acceptability? If everything else about the laptops doesn't

01:15:12 ◼   ► change or like is awash, doesn't get any better, but they have reliable keyboards

01:15:16 ◼   ► is that acceptable or is there a second item and a third item? I don't think we have to solve this now

01:15:20 ◼   ► but I am visualizing like a color-coded rainbow chart that we work our way down

01:15:24 ◼   ► during the keynote and I know they're not really ordered and I know Apple could like introduce items

01:15:28 ◼   ► number one, five, and seven, so there's probably some visualization that would let us know

01:15:32 ◼   ► ahead of time, so we sort of for our own personal opinions and say

01:15:36 ◼   ► here's what I think if they hit X, Y, and Z

01:15:40 ◼   ► here's how I'll feel about it. And doing that before the announcement as opposed to

01:15:44 ◼   ► just seeing what they announced and then deciding how you feel about it is a way to

01:15:48 ◼   ► keep yourself from going off the deep end and saying this one pet thing that I

01:15:52 ◼   ► wanted, whether it's like an SD card slot or cellular or whatever, isn't there and therefore

01:15:56 ◼   ► I think these laptops are crap even though they have like five of the items that I said I wanted and

01:16:00 ◼   ► they've passed into the line of greatness or whatever. That's tough

01:16:04 ◼   ► because on the one side I want to snark and say, oh well

01:16:08 ◼   ► obviously if they don't have a good keyboard I can't buy it, but that's not really

01:16:12 ◼   ► true, I'm going to buy anything that has... It's not a question of like

01:16:16 ◼   ► whether you're going to buy it or not, it's like the line of acceptability is basically have they

01:16:20 ◼   ► improved on the current models. Let's say they just kept giving the current models

01:16:24 ◼   ► butterfly keyboards, they update the CPUs, they give them more RAM, they're like blah blah blah

01:16:28 ◼   ► it's not like we wouldn't buy them because we'd have no choice, they'd be the only Mac laptops

01:16:32 ◼   ► but I think we would all agree that they have not addressed any of the problems

01:16:36 ◼   ► that we see with the current laptop lineup. We feel like the current crop of laptops of the last three

01:16:40 ◼   ► years or so have problems, we want to see those problems addressed and I feel like

01:16:44 ◼   ► the line of acceptability is, okay Apple you have acceptably

01:16:48 ◼   ► you've addressed enough of the problems from our personal estimations

01:16:52 ◼   ► with the current laptops that I feel like, you know

01:16:56 ◼   ► okay, alright, maybe they're still not my favorite laptops in the world

01:17:00 ◼   ► but you've gotten out from under the dark shadow that is

01:17:04 ◼   ► the butterfly keyboard for example. And then from there of like

01:17:08 ◼   ► oh these are good laptops or these are great laptops or these are the best laptops Apple has ever

01:17:12 ◼   ► made, like all the way up and/or down the hierarchy depending on

01:17:16 ◼   ► how you invert your pyramid. Yeah, for me I mean

01:17:20 ◼   ► I agree with your definition of the pyramid, like you know it's not necessarily

01:17:24 ◼   ► what I buy it because we all know I'm going to buy it no matter what it is, but it's

01:17:28 ◼   ► more like you know what will make it fixed

01:17:32 ◼   ► like what will be like this is now on the right track or this is

01:17:36 ◼   ► no longer a product category that is on fire or covered in asterisks

01:17:40 ◼   ► and yeah for me keyboard is number one and

01:17:44 ◼   ► if they did nothing else except give it a

01:17:48 ◼   ► good keyboard again and I define good there as

01:17:52 ◼   ► multiple facets, reliability is number one, but if all they do

01:17:56 ◼   ► is replace the keyboard with a good keyboard again

01:18:00 ◼   ► I consider that good enough. I would like to see more improvements

01:18:04 ◼   ► than that. Cellular is very high on that list but

01:18:08 ◼   ► other than that like it's literally just a good keyboard is

01:18:12 ◼   ► the only single required thing for me to

01:18:16 ◼   ► say this product is back on track. Yeah, it's so tough

01:18:20 ◼   ► I don't know. I think I'm less disgruntled with the

01:18:24 ◼   ► current laptop line than you are Marco

01:18:28 ◼   ► and John hates anything that you can move around so obviously

01:18:32 ◼   ► he doesn't like laptops. It's tough for me to say

01:18:36 ◼   ► I have definitely had some keyboard problems with my MacBook

01:18:40 ◼   ► but they haven't yet been egregious enough to make me really

01:18:44 ◼   ► angry about them. I actually quite like the feel of the keyboard even if

01:18:48 ◼   ► I don't particularly care for the reliability. So I

01:18:52 ◼   ► don't know man. I don't feel like

01:18:56 ◼   ► there's anything really holding me back from buying another one today except

01:19:00 ◼   ► that I don't particularly feel like I need one and in terms of in general

01:19:04 ◼   ► is the line back on track then yeah I think it's what you said it's a reliable keyboard

01:19:08 ◼   ► and probably little else. Now John earlier on you had

01:19:12 ◼   ► said basically oh if this this and this happened it would be the best portable

01:19:16 ◼   ► computer ever made. I think for me that would be

01:19:20 ◼   ► continued extreme lightness because

01:19:24 ◼   ► that's the kind of laptop I favor these days. All day battery

01:19:28 ◼   ► which is obviously indirect. Which your laptop does not have. Yeah

01:19:32 ◼   ► and I can't have them both right. I can't have it be extremely portable and light and

01:19:36 ◼   ► also have an all day battery. Something that's reasonably

01:19:40 ◼   ► speedy with a reasonably nice screen. Another thing that Marco I know you're really

01:19:44 ◼   ► bothered by that doesn't bother me as much is not having true

01:19:48 ◼   ► pixel doubling at least by default you know so

01:19:52 ◼   ► that I can understand why that annoys you but it's not something that I'm

01:19:56 ◼   ► particularly bothered by. And that isn't like a huge deal. Like that is like

01:20:00 ◼   ► I consider huge deals to be like things that I don't

01:20:04 ◼   ► like or that I'm worried about pretty much every time I use it.

01:20:08 ◼   ► And really the number one thing on that list is the keyboard. Like I don't I never

01:20:12 ◼   ► like it no matter how long you know I've been using these keyboards on and off now for

01:20:16 ◼   ► almost three years and I still don't like them.

01:20:20 ◼   ► But I'm also always worried that it's going to break.

01:20:24 ◼   ► And I'm afraid like I use my laptop very

01:20:28 ◼   ► gently and I'm afraid to use it in a lot of conditions where I'm totally

01:20:32 ◼   ► fine using my iPad because I'm not worried about like getting a speck of dust on it. But like

01:20:36 ◼   ► I'm afraid to use my laptop in a lot of conditions because I know

01:20:40 ◼   ► how incredibly fragile that keyboard is. And if a speck of dust goes

01:20:44 ◼   ► near it just the wrong way there goes seven hundred dollars and a

01:20:48 ◼   ► week of not having my laptop. It's a constant worry and for anybody who has these

01:20:52 ◼   ► machines if it isn't a constant worry for you it should be because they

01:20:56 ◼   ► are that fragile and it is that random and capricious when

01:21:00 ◼   ► they stop working and it is that much of a pain to get them repaired.

01:21:04 ◼   ► So it's like that to me like it's it's that

01:21:08 ◼   ► overshadow is everything. The rest of it like the USB-C

01:21:12 ◼   ► only thing. The lack of the card reader. The lack of MagSafe.

01:21:16 ◼   ► The higher price. Like all that stuff is stuff that I have

01:21:20 ◼   ► had I've had you know two and a half years to very

01:21:24 ◼   ► slowly come to terms with. And I mostly have the

01:21:28 ◼   ► touch bar also like I still don't like the touch bar.

01:21:32 ◼   ► But if my only option on the next laptop is a good

01:21:36 ◼   ► keyboard that happens to also have a touch bar. Fine I'll take it. Like

01:21:40 ◼   ► everything else is everything else I can say fine I'll take

01:21:44 ◼   ► it. But not the keyboard reliability that and

01:21:48 ◼   ► in general the keyboard design but the reliability is the number one problem. Like

01:21:52 ◼   ► I worry about that every single time I use the computer and that

01:21:56 ◼   ► negatively impacts when and how I feel

01:22:00 ◼   ► comfortable using the computer. And so that's bigger than everything else.

01:22:04 ◼   ► I was thinking of this I was mostly thinking of it not so much as I mean the line of

01:22:08 ◼   ► reliability is an interesting question but I was thinking of it in terms of

01:22:12 ◼   ► how if they go down the entire list they'd make the best laptop

01:22:16 ◼   ► Apple has ever made. Because in many respects Apple's current laptops are the best

01:22:20 ◼   ► they've ever made for example in terms of size and weight and

01:22:24 ◼   ► sturdiness of the chassis. They're better than they've ever been. They're thinner than they've ever been.

01:22:28 ◼   ► They're very sturdy. They look really good. Like that aspect of the design is great

01:22:32 ◼   ► it's just they've dropped the ball in other areas. So I was thinking like if they just go down this

01:22:36 ◼   ► whole list they'll be great. I haven't really drawn lines but I've typed

01:22:40 ◼   ► up while we've been talking what I think is my personal list

01:22:44 ◼   ► and it's not that long it's like seven items long and if they did

01:22:48 ◼   ► all seven of these things potentially this is the greatest line of laptops

01:22:52 ◼   ► Apple has ever made. So my number one is keyboard reliability

01:22:56 ◼   ► my number two is screen resolution like you know native

01:23:00 ◼   ► 2x all the stuff we've talked about. That's just important enough to me I feel like

01:23:04 ◼   ► it's fundamental just like the keyboard. I'm talking about the Pro laptops by the way. I'm not

01:23:08 ◼   ► talking about the MacBooks I'm saying the MacBook Pro. In particular I'm thinking of the 15 inch but you can

01:23:12 ◼   ► map to 13 inch. It's a true retina res at

01:23:16 ◼   ► least the old number of points.

01:23:20 ◼   ► Number three is the keyboard layout and having a real escape key. So this includes

01:23:24 ◼   ► anything improving the inverted T and you know maybe

01:23:28 ◼   ► an home and end key on the 15 inch and all that stuff. Keyboard layout is my number three.

01:23:32 ◼   ► My number four is SD card just because I have

01:23:36 ◼   ► a camera that uses SD cards. Number five is improved battery life because as bad as the battery

01:23:40 ◼   ► life is with the current things I don't you know it's lower on my

01:23:44 ◼   ► list than all those other things just because I can get by with the battery the way it is like it's ridiculous

01:23:48 ◼   ► when you know WebEx drains my battery in an hour long meeting but

01:23:52 ◼   ► I'm usually not that far from plugs or whatever. So for me battery life is number five.

01:23:56 ◼   ► Six is cellular. I think it's cool but it's

01:24:00 ◼   ► and I would use it but it's below all those other things. Seven is MagSafe.

01:24:04 ◼   ► A return of magnetic attached cables. I can work around that

01:24:08 ◼   ► with a little MagSafe thing that I have from a MacBook Air but it would be great for it to be built in.

01:24:12 ◼   ► And the last item is other additional ports. Whatever those ports

01:24:16 ◼   ► may be I don't really care but just the idea that it wouldn't just be USB-C on the

01:24:20 ◼   ► side. If they did all those things, reliable keyboard, native

01:24:24 ◼   ► 2x, improved keyboard layout and real escape key, SD card slot, improved

01:24:28 ◼   ► battery life, cellular, magnetic thing and some other ports, that could

01:24:32 ◼   ► potentially be the best laptop Apple has ever made. We're not going to get all that I know

01:24:36 ◼   ► but I think that list is technologically feasible

01:24:40 ◼   ► let's say. Apple could build this computer and sell it for a reasonable price as the 15

01:24:44 ◼   ► inch MacBook Pro and it would be the best laptop they've ever made. They won't

01:24:48 ◼   ► for reasons that I find personally frustrating but there's that.

01:24:52 ◼   ► Now my line of acceptability is

01:24:56 ◼   ► I have to say, I think it's after number 2. Keyboard reliability and screen res.

01:25:00 ◼   ► That's just my personal opinion but the screen res thing really bothers

01:25:04 ◼   ► me. And I can't live in a world where we just accept from this point on that there will be

01:25:08 ◼   ► non-native res on Apple's Pro laptops forever and ever. It's bad. I don't like it.

01:25:12 ◼   ► So that's my line of acceptability. And then after that things get scrambled

01:25:16 ◼   ► because I don't think they're going to put an SD card in it. I don't think they're going to change the keyboard layout

01:25:20 ◼   ► but those are my next two items. So they're probably going to skip that and maybe go to improved

01:25:24 ◼   ► battery life and then skip everything else. And they'll end up having good laptops.

01:25:28 ◼   ► That's just my current thinking. I'm sure everyone else's

01:25:32 ◼   ► lists vary. If I had to make a similar list for the Mac Pro it would be

01:25:36 ◼   ► a big giant mess. I don't even know. And honestly the Mac Pro is more of like

01:25:40 ◼   ► I feel like with the Mac Pro

01:25:44 ◼   ► I have an out. They don't make a Mac Pro that fits my bill. I'll just buy an iMac Pro.

01:25:48 ◼   ► It's a good computer. I just want them to be back in the market of making Pro

01:25:52 ◼   ► Macs and in hopes that there will be another one

01:25:56 ◼   ► after that unlike the trash can and that they have another chance to take a run at it. Just like with the laptops.

01:26:00 ◼   ► They make a bunch of laptops that we have problems with but they're going to keep making more laptops

01:26:04 ◼   ► so they have more chances to get it right. I just want the Mac Pro to be like that. You know a computer

01:26:08 ◼   ► that they make more of every year or two. That's all. Anyway.

01:26:12 ◼   ► It shouldn't be a lot to ask. A keyboard that works.

01:26:16 ◼   ► That's my laptop list. Maybe I'll refine it before WWDC or whenever we think they're going to announce

01:26:20 ◼   ► laptops and then we can all go down the list and check off and see where we end up on our

01:26:24 ◼   ► our MacBook hierarchy of needs and/or wants.

01:26:28 ◼   ► I'm working on mine as you're talking and I'm not

01:26:32 ◼   ► satisfied with it. I don't know. What I've come up with

01:26:36 ◼   ► which again I'm not terribly satisfied with is improved

01:26:40 ◼   ► keyboard reliability and I'd also like the inverted 2. I do miss that.

01:26:44 ◼   ► And that is pretty much the line of acceptability for me. Again I don't really...

01:26:48 ◼   ► Well, I don't know. Dealer's choice.

01:26:52 ◼   ► Well I said good keyboard but that's a compound item.

01:26:56 ◼   ► If they failed on the inverted T then whatever.

01:27:00 ◼   ► I would be annoyed by it. And they will. I'd be annoyed by it but I would move on.

01:27:04 ◼   ► So to me the line is just a better keyboard. Be that one item

01:27:08 ◼   ► or two. It doesn't really matter to me. I'm counting it as one though. My next thing

01:27:12 ◼   ► is cellular. I would love to see cellular. Again I don't think

01:27:16 ◼   ► it'll happen. MagSafe I don't think it'll happen. That's three.

01:27:20 ◼   ► Four is an SD card slot. Five is improved battery life.

01:27:24 ◼   ► Six is more frequent updates to the line. Even though

01:27:28 ◼   ► I don't buy a computer every year or every month because my name is not Marco

01:27:32 ◼   ► I would still like to see more frequent updates. I mean I don't think you guys

01:27:36 ◼   ► understand how tough it is to be a laptop fan. We haven't gotten updates in like, I don't know, a year.

01:27:40 ◼   ► That's not a feature of our product though. I'm gonna

01:27:44 ◼   ► mix that one. Okay that's fine. That's fine. Like to me what matters

01:27:48 ◼   ► you know some of these things matter. You know like updates matter only on an

01:27:52 ◼   ► extreme scale. Right? Like if a product line only gets

01:27:56 ◼   ► updated every like one and a half to three years like

01:28:00 ◼   ► that matters if you're like trying to, if you're itching to buy one from one year

01:28:04 ◼   ► in and you have to wait and wait and wait for the new models to come out in order to buy something that you think is current. That

01:28:08 ◼   ► sucks. But once you own it that stops mattering.

01:28:12 ◼   ► And there's a lot of these things like once you already own it

01:28:16 ◼   ► things like the release schedule or even like the

01:28:20 ◼   ► a lot of the purchase price or the upgrade pricing a lot of that stuff

01:28:24 ◼   ► is a one time pain before or during purchase

01:28:28 ◼   ► but then after purchase you can move on and it isn't constantly

01:28:32 ◼   ► impacting you. Whereas things like an unreliable keyboard

01:28:36 ◼   ► that impacts you the entire life of the product.

01:28:40 ◼   ► So that's to me like that's way more important. Any factor that

01:28:44 ◼   ► impacts you the whole time you own it is way more important than

01:28:48 ◼   ► one time pains up front. I think that's fair.

01:28:52 ◼   ► So my list then is keyboard and that's where my line is. Better keyboard, more reliable

01:28:56 ◼   ► and inverted T. Then below or above the line however you want to look at it

01:29:00 ◼   ► cellular, mag safe, SD slot, battery life and more ports

01:29:04 ◼   ► because and I think I would move more

01:29:08 ◼   ► ports way the crap up if I was committed forever to only buying an adorable

01:29:12 ◼   ► because I got to tell you it is really nice to use

01:29:16 ◼   ► I believe they're a past sponsor a Luna display with your MacBook adorable to get a lot

01:29:20 ◼   ► more real estate when you're say working on like an iOS app or something like that or

01:29:24 ◼   ► Final Cut. However that is really really

01:29:28 ◼   ► really not as fun when you only have one port and that one port is being taken up

01:29:32 ◼   ► by the Luna display and so I have a like two hour

01:29:36 ◼   ► limit of having multiple monitors on my laptop because only when it comes to

01:29:40 ◼   ► you know using the iPad as a second monitor because after that my battery is dead and I need to

01:29:44 ◼   ► disconnect the Luna display which happened to me just the other night. So

01:29:48 ◼   ► more ports would be like number one on my list if I knew

01:29:52 ◼   ► I was going to buy an adorable and only an adorable for the rest of my life but the fact

01:29:56 ◼   ► of the matter is this is a self created problem because I could have just as well chosen a

01:30:00 ◼   ► different laptop that has at least one more port.

01:30:04 ◼   ► I've got improved battery life somewhere in the middle of my list but obviously the ARM thing we expect

01:30:08 ◼   ► will take care of that like we're going to get that whether we ask for it or not

01:30:12 ◼   ► unlike all the other things on this list other than keyboard reliability. Are we going to get it?

01:30:16 ◼   ► Because any gains that are possible by moving to ARM

01:30:20 ◼   ► Apple could spend those by just making the battery smaller to make the

01:30:24 ◼   ► laptop smaller and thinner. But I don't think they will because I think like the ten

01:30:28 ◼   ► hour battery on the iPad I feel like Apple's line for

01:30:32 ◼   ► acceptability for pearl laptop battery life they're currently below that

01:30:36 ◼   ► line. They're below it because they you know this is the trade offs they've made but I think they're slightly

01:30:40 ◼   ► below it. So I think we're getting improved battery life as a guarantee with the ARM. Not like

01:30:44 ◼   ► fantastically better because like you said they can choose to trade it off but I feel like they're not going to say

01:30:48 ◼   ► the current laptops have about the right battery especially like in terms of peak

01:30:52 ◼   ► performance like if you run it hard how they drain down so

01:30:56 ◼   ► fast. I feel like Apple

01:31:00 ◼   ► would like their current line of laptops to get a little bit better so when they

01:31:04 ◼   ► have the ability to do that they're not going to trade it all away for thinness. I think they're

01:31:08 ◼   ► going to do it for that. And keyboard reliability

01:31:12 ◼   ► I think about this too in my more pessimistic moments like I'm very certain

01:31:16 ◼   ► that they're going to come out with a new keyboard. But I guess

01:31:20 ◼   ► nobody can be really certain that the new keyboard

01:31:24 ◼   ► will fix all their reliability problems. Obviously that's the whole point of the new keyboard is to solve

01:31:28 ◼   ► the problems presented by the old keyboard. But it's not like Apple

01:31:32 ◼   ► set out to make an unreliable keyboard right? So

01:31:36 ◼   ► it's the type of thing where we'll all be happy when they announce a laptop with a new keyboard however

01:31:40 ◼   ► they present it but we still kind of have to take a wait and see attitude

01:31:44 ◼   ► to say okay is it actually more reliable?

01:31:48 ◼   ► Because I don't think it's getting ten times thicker. It's not going back to

01:31:52 ◼   ► the old keyboard. It's going to be a new thin

01:31:56 ◼   ► keyboard that we hope doesn't have problems. But that's

01:32:00 ◼   ► not an easy thing for Apple to make apparently.

01:32:04 ◼   ► So there's that possibility as well. So I'm going to say improved battery life

01:32:08 ◼   ► is even if only slightly is a guarantee with the ARM transition.

01:32:12 ◼   ► Keyboard reliability is a guaranteed thing Apple will try to do and

01:32:16 ◼   ► everything else on this list is potentially able to be

01:32:20 ◼   ► ignored by Apple which I find very annoying because once again everything

01:32:24 ◼   ► on this list is A. available on PC laptops and B. entirely

01:32:28 ◼   ► within the realm of feasibility for Apple to make

01:32:32 ◼   ► without any significant downsides

01:32:36 ◼   ► in terms of oh we have to increase the price by hundreds of dollars or it is

01:32:40 ◼   ► compromised in some terrible way that makes it a worse product. People would love

01:32:44 ◼   ► this product that I listed on all these things. They would love it. Again just for the 15 inch.

01:32:48 ◼   ► Put all these things on the 15 inch. Nobody would say I was going to buy a new 15 inch but I found

01:32:52 ◼   ► that it comes with an SD card slot so screw that computer.

01:32:56 ◼   ► Yeah like if you want to have a minimal laptop that offers as

01:33:00 ◼   ► little as possible despite the hostility it provides to actual

01:33:04 ◼   ► use focus at all on the 12 inch because those buyers relish in that.

01:33:08 ◼   ► Hey guys. Sorry about that. We recovered this on past shows. There's no

01:33:12 ◼   ► room for another port on that computer. It's impossible. Back when people

01:33:16 ◼   ► were much more willing to believe that Apple could do no wrong. Very strongly argue

01:33:20 ◼   ► that there is literally no room for another port on a computer that size.

01:33:24 ◼   ► Seriously if you gave me the same computer or if Apple made available

01:33:28 ◼   ► this exact same computer with all the same internals that I was just

01:33:32 ◼   ► whining about what half an hour ago. If they made this exact

01:33:36 ◼   ► same computer but with a second port and charged me another

01:33:40 ◼   ► $2,500 whatever I paid for this thing for it. I would buy that tomorrow.

01:33:44 ◼   ► I really would. I have great news for you Casey. They do

01:33:48 ◼   ► make that computer. I don't want a Macbook Pro. No get a Macbook Air.

01:33:52 ◼   ► Macbook Air. That's true. You're probably right. The Macbook Air is

01:33:56 ◼   ► almost exactly what you want. The only thing is

01:34:00 ◼   ► it is significantly heavier and bigger.

01:34:04 ◼   ► Going from 2.0 pounds to 2.75 pounds

01:34:08 ◼   ► is a pretty big difference and

01:34:12 ◼   ► going from 12 inch to the 13 inch body. It is noticeably

01:34:16 ◼   ► bigger and heavier. However, the new Macbook Air

01:34:20 ◼   ► is basically a two port Macbook. That's basically

01:34:24 ◼   ► what they made. It's very similar in a lot of ways and it's a lot better in a lot of ways.

01:34:28 ◼   ► Every curve or continuum

01:34:32 ◼   ► has a certain point at which you can make things smaller and

01:34:36 ◼   ► smaller and thinner and thinner and at some point there is an optimal balance

01:34:40 ◼   ► and then at some point you fall off a cliff. When you pass this certain point

01:34:44 ◼   ► the trade offs are no longer worth it and they start becoming really severe trade offs

01:34:48 ◼   ► that start to really impact you in ways that are no longer worth the trade offs.

01:34:52 ◼   ► I think the 12 inch for a lot of people's uses is on the

01:34:56 ◼   ► fallen off the cliff side of that. Whereas the 13 inch

01:35:00 ◼   ► Macbook Air is comfortably on the other side of the line.

01:35:04 ◼   ► I think if you want a super portable computer

01:35:08 ◼   ► and you're willing to give up some performance and stuff to get there, the 13 inch

01:35:12 ◼   ► Macbook Air is a way, way better balance

01:35:16 ◼   ► for most people's needs than the 12 inch.

01:35:20 ◼   ► I'm not saying the 12 inch should stop existing because there are people for whom that

01:35:24 ◼   ► super tininess of it is worth those trade offs

01:35:28 ◼   ► but it's such a severe drop off in utility to get that

01:35:32 ◼   ► that you're an able bodied youngish person.

01:35:36 ◼   ► You can carry an extra three quarters of a pound

01:35:40 ◼   ► and it's fine. Apple already makes the computer

01:35:44 ◼   ► that you should buy and it's the new Macbook Air. Except for that stupid keyboard.

01:35:48 ◼   ► Well not with that keyboard maybe. Yeah actually that keyboard has proven to be pretty unreliable

01:35:52 ◼   ► actually. But yeah they're almost making like

01:35:56 ◼   ► the keyboard you have now is worse.

01:36:00 ◼   ► Reliability wise maybe it's slightly worse but

01:36:04 ◼   ► might be better feel wise. Oh and not so real time follow up I realize that

01:36:08 ◼   ► I'm looking at this Wikipedia page. The bottom item in Maslow's hierarchy

01:36:12 ◼   ► I just misread the word because the text is small and I'm tired and my eyes are blurring.

01:36:16 ◼   ► Physiological safety not psychological. Physiological

01:36:20 ◼   ► needs like am I hungry

01:36:24 ◼   ► and then above that is safety. Am I in danger of being attacked

01:36:28 ◼   ► by cougars or whatever. And then love, belonging, then esteem

01:36:32 ◼   ► and self actualization. So the hierarchy, the Macbook hierarchy is not so

01:36:36 ◼   ► neat as Maslow's hierarchy but what can you do?

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01:38:40 ◼   ► Wi-Fi again.

01:38:44 ◼   ► Let's do some Ask ATP. And let's start with

01:38:48 ◼   ► Matt Corkum who writes, "Hey Jon, what is the maximum you would

01:38:52 ◼   ► spend on the new Mac Pro? Maybe or perhaps the

01:38:56 ◼   ► Macs on the tower itself and the monitor separately if you'd like to

01:39:00 ◼   ► enumerate those numerals differently?"

01:39:04 ◼   ► So keep in mind the answer to this question is heavily warped by the fact that I'm using a 10 year old computer right now

01:39:08 ◼   ► and have been saving money for a long time. So this is not to say this is not much money I would have typically

01:39:12 ◼   ► spend on a computer. Wait, can we guess first before you say? Go ahead, yeah.

01:39:16 ◼   ► Casey, what's your guess? I think Jon is

01:39:20 ◼   ► willing to spend somewhere around $7,500

01:39:24 ◼   ► for the computer and the monitor. Yeah, I'm gonna do the computer and monitor

01:39:28 ◼   ► separately just so you know. Oh, okay. So I think he would spend easily

01:39:32 ◼   ► $5,000 on the computer probably as much as, actually I bet you

01:39:36 ◼   ► would do $7,000 on the computer and I think you would do another couple thousand

01:39:40 ◼   ► on the monitor or monitors. So I would

01:39:44 ◼   ► guess all in you're sitting at between $7,000 and $9,000.

01:39:48 ◼   ► Alright, so I'm guessing, see there is gonna be some kind of

01:39:52 ◼   ► value judgment here. Like I don't know what upgrades Jon

01:39:56 ◼   ► will consider worthwhile to go all the way to the max because like when you go to the max

01:40:00 ◼   ► for things like RAM or SSD size there's a massive step up

01:40:04 ◼   ► in price, right? So I don't know, like is he gonna go for the 4 terabyte

01:40:08 ◼   ► SSD? Is he gonna go for the 64 or 128 gigs of

01:40:12 ◼   ► RAM? Like those are gonna be like huge steps up in price. Like those alone

01:40:16 ◼   ► are like probably $3,000 each, right? So like there's gonna be

01:40:20 ◼   ► the question of that but I'm guessing because it has been so long

01:40:24 ◼   ► and because Jon has been so frustrated at

01:40:28 ◼   ► not having a new Mac Pro, he's had so long to save and he's

01:40:32 ◼   ► even dropped hints before that he's had like 10 years to save up and Jon doesn't buy a lot

01:40:36 ◼   ► of expensive things. So I'm guessing that the budget for this is

01:40:40 ◼   ► higher than what you said Casey. I'm guessing that he will actually

01:40:44 ◼   ► end up spending more like $9,000

01:40:48 ◼   ► or $10,000 on the tower or whatever it is itself.

01:40:52 ◼   ► And the monitor, I mean this is kind of just a guess at what the monitor will cost

01:40:56 ◼   ► I'm guessing the monitor costs between $2,000 and $3,000

01:41:00 ◼   ► so I'm gonna say a total of around $12,000.

01:41:04 ◼   ► Boy, you guys, one of the, just two or three shows ago you were trying

01:41:08 ◼   ► to make fun of me for my frugality which you coarsely described as

01:41:12 ◼   ► cheapness. I think you're both underestimating my frugality.

01:41:16 ◼   ► My limits, and obviously this could change based on the computer and

01:41:20 ◼   ► again based on the price of the options because there is

01:41:24 ◼   ► a possibility that I spend way too much on a really big SSD just because I

01:41:28 ◼   ► hate running out of room on stuff I wouldn't spend on the RAM.

01:41:32 ◼   ► My current thinking is

01:41:36 ◼   ► not over $6,000 for the computer and not over $2,000 for the monitor.

01:41:40 ◼   ► That's my current thinking. Oh so I was pretty close. Yeah you were close, you were just

01:41:44 ◼   ► off by like just one digit. I would be willing to spend

01:41:48 ◼   ► $5,000 something for the computer but if the computer is pushing up to $6,000

01:41:52 ◼   ► I would reconsider and I'd be willing to spend $1,800 for the monitor

01:41:56 ◼   ► but if it's like a $2,500 monitor I'd reconsider. Now with the monitor thing

01:42:00 ◼   ► if there is no other monitor I would probably go higher just because I'm gonna have to have an Apple monitor.

01:42:04 ◼   ► But I'm hoping that if the monitor is more than

01:42:08 ◼   ► $2,000 that there's a $5K option I would just take that one, it would cost less.

01:42:12 ◼   ► That's my current thinking. Feel free to play this back to me when I

01:42:16 ◼   ► plunk down $12,000 for the Marko computer.

01:42:20 ◼   ► I hope you do. I really hope you do. Not just to make me right

01:42:24 ◼   ► because I'm right enough. If you were describing the computer

01:42:28 ◼   ► you're gonna get Marko. That's what you were describing.

01:42:32 ◼   ► Mr. 64 gigs of RAM in his iMac Pro.

01:42:36 ◼   ► But seriously, you've gone this long

01:42:40 ◼   ► it means so much to you. You don't really treat yourself in a lot of other ways.

01:42:44 ◼   ► For god's sake, life is short. Get the 4TB.

01:42:48 ◼   ► That's the new ad campaign

01:42:52 ◼   ► for Marko Almond for Apple Computer. Life is short. Get the 4TB.

01:42:56 ◼   ► Don't look at the price tag. Treat yourself.

01:43:00 ◼   ► Oh man. Alright, well I'm gonna claim victory on that one

01:43:04 ◼   ► until you end up paying $10,000+ for this thing.

01:43:08 ◼   ► I'm gonna claim victory until the receipt's in hand.

01:43:12 ◼   ► Make sure we bring the receipts. Anyway, Asajj writes,

01:43:16 ◼   ► "For thousands of people you are professional podcasters but many of you do different things full time.

01:43:20 ◼   ► What do you consider yourself to be with regards to career? Programmers, podcasters, quote-unquote influencers?"

01:43:24 ◼   ► I can start with this.

01:43:28 ◼   ► I still don't think of myself as a really and truly professional podcaster

01:43:32 ◼   ► because that's not really a job, right? But if you look at

01:43:36 ◼   ► how I make money, yes it is, and yes I am.

01:43:40 ◼   ► But I still think of myself as a developer predominantly

01:43:44 ◼   ► and if I wanted to use a really self-involved term, I guess a producer

01:43:48 ◼   ► because in terms of both creating video content

01:43:52 ◼   ► and creating written content.

01:43:56 ◼   ► I think of myself as a developer/quote-unquote producer

01:44:00 ◼   ► even though the reality of the situation is I am a podcaster.

01:44:04 ◼   ► What do you feel about this?

01:44:08 ◼   ► For years I would always write, in anything that was asking me my job title

01:44:12 ◼   ► when I'm filling out something for the IRS

01:44:16 ◼   ► or entering a country and asking for your occupation, I would always write

01:44:20 ◼   ► software developer. So for years I considered myself a programmer

01:44:24 ◼   ► number one. It was only recently that I started

01:44:28 ◼   ► if somebody asked me what I do now, I'll usually say

01:44:32 ◼   ► a podcaster and an app developer. And I'll say it in that order.

01:44:36 ◼   ► I spend more of my life creating podcasts

01:44:40 ◼   ► than I do writing software at this point.

01:44:44 ◼   ► Mine is easier because I just have a regular day job. I always tell people I'm a programmer

01:44:48 ◼   ► and that just shuts them up because they don't want to hear about it. I mean it's such a dated term at this point

01:44:52 ◼   ► everyone says like developer or software. I always just say programmer because it dates me because that's how

01:44:56 ◼   ► old I actually am. I'm of the age when what I wanted to be was a programmer and that's what I

01:45:00 ◼   ► ended up being and I just keep calling myself that. And honestly I don't really

01:45:04 ◼   ► you know, like my Twitter bio I think says like

01:45:08 ◼   ► programmer, tech writer, and podcaster but I haven't done tech writing in forever but I don't know

01:45:12 ◼   ► like it's hard to pin yourself down. Like I did do a bunch of tech writing. I feel like it's defining

01:45:16 ◼   ► characteristic of my quote unquote career. But just because I don't

01:45:20 ◼   ► do it now doesn't mean I don't feel like a writer. Just like if I stopped podcasting

01:45:24 ◼   ► I would still feel like a podcaster. But programmer is what I say to people and then they don't

01:45:28 ◼   ► ask anymore questions. I should try that because app developer

01:45:32 ◼   ► I always hear people's dumb ideas for apps. Yeah people love apps. No one likes

01:45:36 ◼   ► programs. Hey I have this great idea for an app

01:45:40 ◼   ► can you help me make it? Well first you got to send us NDA so you don't steal my idea.

01:45:44 ◼   ► 10 print John 20 go to 10.

01:45:48 ◼   ► I'm a programmer. I write programs. Oh my word. Thanks to our sponsors

01:45:52 ◼   ► this week. Hover, Eero, and Away. And we'll see you

01:45:56 ◼   ► next week.

01:46:00 ◼   ► Well the show is over. They didn't even mean to begin.

01:46:04 ◼   ► Cause it was accidental. Oh it was

01:46:08 ◼   ► accidental. John didn't do any research

01:46:12 ◼   ► Marco and Casey wouldn't let him. Cause it was accidental.

01:46:16 ◼   ► Oh it was accidental.

01:46:20 ◼   ► And you can find the show notes at ATP.fm

01:46:24 ◼   ► And if you're into Twitter

01:46:28 ◼   ► You can follow them at

01:46:32 ◼   ► C-A-S-E-Y-L-I-S-S. So that's Casey List

01:46:36 ◼   ► M-A-R-C-O-A-R-M

01:46:40 ◼   ► N-T-M-A-R-C-O-R-M-N-S-I-R-A-C

01:46:44 ◼   ► U-S-A-C-R-A-C-U-S-A. It's accidental.

01:46:48 ◼   ► They didn't mean to

01:46:52 ◼   ► Accidental.

01:46:56 ◼   ► So since

01:47:00 ◼   ► everyone loves hearing about cars, we thought we would move the last Ask ATP

01:47:04 ◼   ► to the after show for you. Vincent S. was

01:47:08 ◼   ► kind enough to send me a recording of how he pronounced his surname, but I genuinely don't

01:47:12 ◼   ► think my mouth can make those sounds. So we'll just go with Vincent.

01:47:16 ◼   ► What do you think of the Polestar 2? Now if you're not familiar

01:47:20 ◼   ► Polestar used to be like the M division of Volvo.

01:47:24 ◼   ► Or at least that was my understanding anyway. And recently they have kind of repurposed, they've pivoted

01:47:28 ◼   ► I'm sorry let's bring this into programmer/developer terms. They've pivoted

01:47:32 ◼   ► to being Volvo's all electric arm, or predominantly electric arm.

01:47:36 ◼   ► And Volvo's recently announced the Polestar 2.

01:47:40 ◼   ► Which is kind of sort of a model 3 equivalent.

01:47:44 ◼   ► I happen to think it's pretty good looking, although John I know you and I were talking

01:47:48 ◼   ► well all three of us were talking privately in Slack and you

01:47:52 ◼   ► said you did not care for the look of it and we can talk about that in a minute. But all told

01:47:56 ◼   ► it appears to be basically a model 3, but to

01:48:00 ◼   ► my eyes better looking and from a manufacturer that's probably going to have a whole

01:48:04 ◼   ► lot less problems and will probably be able to service this. Which is a

01:48:08 ◼   ► novel idea for a Tesla owner to actually get service and do so timely.

01:48:12 ◼   ► It's true. It hurts because it's true.

01:48:16 ◼   ► But I mean I haven't looked too much into this. There's a really great video that

01:48:20 ◼   ► John you had linked to us from Top Gear, not the television program

01:48:24 ◼   ► but the journalist organization where they did like a

01:48:28 ◼   ► ten minute quick look on it. Which I guess wasn't that quick. But anyway

01:48:32 ◼   ► it looks really good to me. I am really enthusiastic about other

01:48:36 ◼   ► traditional manufacturers getting into all electric cars. And

01:48:40 ◼   ► I am not in the market for a car and won't be hopefully for many years.

01:48:44 ◼   ► You know, five plus years. But if I were in the market for a car today

01:48:48 ◼   ► I would take a very serious look at this. I really really would.

01:48:52 ◼   ► I'd like to hear Marco's input last to someone who actually has an electric

01:48:56 ◼   ► car. But John what do you think about this? I think Volvo

01:49:00 ◼   ► modern day Volvo has been on a bit of a run of making some

01:49:04 ◼   ► really nice cars. In particular I like the turn their styling has taken

01:49:08 ◼   ► over the last five years or so. Which is why it breaks my heart that this

01:49:12 ◼   ► car is ungainly and ugly. Very much disagree.

01:49:16 ◼   ► It's not ugly but it is ungainly and it's just

01:49:20 ◼   ► so slightly off of all their other beautiful cars. Like you made all these

01:49:24 ◼   ► beautiful internal combustion cars and you have a chance to do an electric car on it which has

01:49:28 ◼   ► far less stuff inside it. And this is what you come up with? This sort of

01:49:32 ◼   ► tall chunky looking

01:49:36 ◼   ► sedanish thing? It's just so... it breaks my heart. But all that said

01:49:40 ◼   ► I think it will probably be a pretty good car.

01:49:44 ◼   ► And it's a reasonable balance of features and range

01:49:48 ◼   ► and performance and typical Volvo safety.

01:49:52 ◼   ► I mostly give a thumbs up to the car. The styling just breaks

01:49:56 ◼   ► my heart. Because there's just no reason they needed to blow it like this. And then you see the Pulsar

01:50:00 ◼   ► 1 which is their hybrid fancier coupe looking thing.

01:50:04 ◼   ► And I think the Pulsar 1 is not as nice looking as some of their

01:50:08 ◼   ► gasoline cars but it is way better than the two. The 1 is way better looking

01:50:12 ◼   ► I agree with that. It's a coupe. It's easy to make it low slung and stuff like that.

01:50:16 ◼   ► I hope the Pulsar 2 is not the way Volvos are going to look

01:50:20 ◼   ► going forward. I hope it's just their first awkward electric and they'll sort it out eventually.

01:50:24 ◼   ► Marco. This is the kind of car that I've been

01:50:28 ◼   ► waiting for more automakers to make. Tesla should

01:50:32 ◼   ► not be the only car maker making the kind of cars that it makes.

01:50:36 ◼   ► I'm very happy with my car but Tesla is not perfect and they

01:50:40 ◼   ► could certainly use more competition. And I would certainly like

01:50:44 ◼   ► to have more choices that offer the kind of things that I like about my Tesla

01:50:48 ◼   ► in the future. They should not be the only company making these things.

01:50:52 ◼   ► And so the Volvo Pulsar 2

01:50:56 ◼   ► is Pulsar the brand name? Is it like saying Toyota

01:51:00 ◼   ► Lexus? It's like AMG. It's affiliated

01:51:04 ◼   ► but they want it to be a separate thing. I don't know how successful they're going to be

01:51:08 ◼   ► but AMG is technically not the same as Mercedes but

01:51:12 ◼   ► everyone knows it is. Or what is it? Hyundai has Genesis

01:51:16 ◼   ► same type of thing. Genesis is a better example. I was going to say Ram vs. Dodge

01:51:20 ◼   ► because the pickups are now. No it's not Ram vs. Dodge. It's totally a Hyundai Genesis.

01:51:24 ◼   ► The successful ones, Toyota Lexus and Nissan Infinity, those are the successful ones

01:51:28 ◼   ► but there's been a bunch of half successful ones recently and so far I think this isn't a half

01:51:32 ◼   ► successful category. But we'll see. Well anyway, so the Pulsar

01:51:36 ◼   ► 2 I think, I'm really happy to see this coming from

01:51:40 ◼   ► a company that has the long standing manufacturing

01:51:44 ◼   ► and logistics expertise that Volvo does. That is something that we really need.

01:51:48 ◼   ► And that's like, I hope this takes off very well.

01:51:52 ◼   ► It is, I don't think it's for me for lots of reasons

01:51:56 ◼   ► number one, it says

01:52:00 ◼   ► that in regards to like color

01:52:04 ◼   ► material selection it says no bad combinations.

01:52:08 ◼   ► But I would argue there's also no good combinations. This car comes in

01:52:12 ◼   ► six different colors of grey ranging from white to black. It is

01:52:16 ◼   ► literally like a grey, it's like you have six different shades, the top one is

01:52:20 ◼   ► white, the bottom one is black and you have four in the middle that are all kind of greyish.

01:52:24 ◼   ► Yeah that's very true. Have they ever had caffeine? Like

01:52:28 ◼   ► these are the most boring configurations I've ever seen of a car.

01:52:32 ◼   ► Midnight does look pretty good to me though, which is the almost black

01:52:36 ◼   ► but not quite black. Also I like that they're black, speaking of being a

01:52:40 ◼   ► programmer John, is called void. Yeah exactly.

01:52:44 ◼   ► I agree, from the pictures Midnight is the least terrible color

01:52:48 ◼   ► that I can see in this list. But yeah, just come on.

01:52:52 ◼   ► Give it some personality. But other than that, it's fine.

01:52:56 ◼   ► It looks fine. My main concern with something like this is that even

01:53:00 ◼   ► a company with the history of a big maker like Volvo

01:53:04 ◼   ► I still wouldn't want to buy their very first

01:53:08 ◼   ► mass market electric car. Because you're still going to be a beta tester

01:53:12 ◼   ► at that point. And it's going to have a lot of problems that they're going to have to work out

01:53:16 ◼   ► just after it gets to market. You're going to have all those 1.0

01:53:20 ◼   ► issues right? And I didn't buy a Tesla until

01:53:24 ◼   ► they had been around for like five years. Or like shipping cars for

01:53:28 ◼   ► five years. And I feel like I jumped in at a pretty good time

01:53:32 ◼   ► because by that time a lot of the kings had been worked out. They were already on their second generation

01:53:36 ◼   ► Model S interior and Model S design and everything. And like it was

01:53:40 ◼   ► way better than the earlier cars. Which I would occasionally get a service loaner.

01:53:44 ◼   ► I know, I could see directly how much better it was than the earlier ones.

01:53:48 ◼   ► And right now, there are very few other

01:53:52 ◼   ► automakers that have even remotely mature

01:53:56 ◼   ► electric options. And this is probably going to be great

01:54:00 ◼   ► in five years maybe. Maybe it might take more than that

01:54:04 ◼   ► I don't know, hopefully not. But yeah, in five years this might be a great option. Like when it gets

01:54:08 ◼   ► to its second version or its 1.5ish kind of version. This could be

01:54:12 ◼   ► great. But I would not want to buy somebody's 1.0. In something

01:54:16 ◼   ► like a car, which is like, if I buy your car or if I lease your car or whatever

01:54:20 ◼   ► I'm stuck with that car for a number of years. Like that's

01:54:24 ◼   ► a major purchase that you're going to be using for a long time.

01:54:28 ◼   ► Do you really want to be stuck with somebody's 1.0 of a completely brand new thing

01:54:32 ◼   ► they've never done before? For that long and for that important of a purchase? I don't think so.

01:54:36 ◼   ► So that's something like, that's going to apply to all of these

01:54:40 ◼   ► newcomers. Things like the Porsche Taycan, this thing.

01:54:44 ◼   ► Pretty much everything that's like an established automakers first real

01:54:48 ◼   ► Tesla competitor. It's so different. Like making an all-electric car

01:54:52 ◼   ► is so different in so many ways that while I have full

01:54:56 ◼   ► faith that they'll be able to do it well a few years in

01:55:00 ◼   ► I don't have that faith for the very first wave. Because I think they still have a lot to learn.

01:55:04 ◼   ► And I don't want to be their beta tester. You know I agree with you all in all but let's

01:55:08 ◼   ► not lose sight of the fact that Volvo has been very forward thinking with regard to

01:55:12 ◼   ► a subscription model for cars. And in fact that's exactly what it says on the Pulse Star 2 page.

01:55:16 ◼   ► Oh yeah, can you explain that to me? Because I read the subscription thing and it sounds

01:55:20 ◼   ► just like a lease. No, so it's

01:55:24 ◼   ► a monthly fee. Pulse Star feels that car ownership should be more closely resembled

01:55:28 ◼   ► with phone ownership. An all-inclusive monthly fee with the option to return

01:55:32 ◼   ► or upgrade at the end of your term without any hassle or headache.

01:55:36 ◼   ► How is that not a lease? Because they include insurance as well.

01:55:40 ◼   ► Oh, okay. That's it? No, I could have sworn

01:55:44 ◼   ► there was something else but I don't know what it is off the top of my head. Maybe that is it. But

01:55:48 ◼   ► the idea is that, I think with

01:55:52 ◼   ► other subscription services you might be able to change cars periodically. Didn't BMW do that?

01:55:58 ◼   ► They said that you could have different tiers. Yeah, you could pick any

01:56:02 ◼   ► other of the cars you want and they don't care which car you have. You just pay them the same

01:56:06 ◼   ► monthly fee and then you just pick. So they make more money from you if you pick a cheaper car, I suppose.

01:56:10 ◼   ► I don't know. It's always to just figure out

01:56:14 ◼   ► how to get money from people who otherwise wouldn't buy one. But I feel like

01:56:18 ◼   ► it doesn't sound like it's going to be a good deal. If it's the only way you can

01:56:22 ◼   ► buy this car, then tough luck. But I wouldn't choose it.

01:56:26 ◼   ► I'm excited though. I'm excited to see all these other

01:56:30 ◼   ► manufacturers joining this electric future which

01:56:34 ◼   ► I think we can all agree is probably everyone's future. And I just wanted to

01:56:38 ◼   ► reiterate what John said about Volvo lately. I definitely have problems

01:56:42 ◼   ► with our XC90 but by and large I cannot say enough good things about it.

01:56:46 ◼   ► I had no desire to own a Volvo before we bought it.

01:56:50 ◼   ► The car was for Erin so she basically

01:56:54 ◼   ► chose it. I was supportive of it not only because

01:56:58 ◼   ► it's her car but because it seemed like it would be nice and I really do love this thing.

01:57:02 ◼   ► It is not without fault but I really, really love that XC90.

01:57:06 ◼   ► I agree John that Volvo's really been on a tear lately in the best possible way.

01:57:10 ◼   ► I wasn't talking about your Volvo, I was talking about the car. That's Marco's problem. He's just ignoring all the

01:57:14 ◼   ► SUVs that are coming out because he's not interested in them. And for the record

01:57:18 ◼   ► this Polestar 2 does look a little bit crossover-y for me. It's a little high.

01:57:22 ◼   ► It is. I would agree. The one thing they totally blew in this

01:57:26 ◼   ► Polestar is the, just from looking at it, I'm surprised it wasn't

01:57:30 ◼   ► mentioned in the top gear thing, the giant walls surrounding

01:57:34 ◼   ► their center console. What are they thinking? What are they thinking?

01:57:38 ◼   ► They could have had an airy feeling interior that feels spacious like, you know,

01:57:42 ◼   ► because you have less stuff that you have to deal with, fewer buttons, the big tablet has a lot of

01:57:46 ◼   ► the controls on it and they put these gigantic walls around the center tunnel.

01:57:50 ◼   ► Yeah that's not great. Although, you did say Casey this has CarPlay support

01:57:54 ◼   ► right? You know based on what I saw on Twitter earlier, because I had asked this

01:57:58 ◼   ► question on Twitter earlier, and some people who were very self-assured

01:58:02 ◼   ► indicated that it should have CarPlay, yes. But the tablet

01:58:06 ◼   ► system apparently, or I shouldn't call it a tablet, but the infotainment system is actually

01:58:10 ◼   ► all Google apparently and it's running Android and so on.

01:58:14 ◼   ► But I'm told from the internet, so it must be true, that it would support CarPlay

01:58:18 ◼   ► as well, which is more than I can say for your two Teslas that you've owned.

01:58:22 ◼   ► Yeah that's the thing, like CarPlay support is tempting. I would actually really enjoy that.

01:58:26 ◼   ► And Aaron's, this is not the same setup in Aaron's car, but

01:58:30 ◼   ► Aaron's car does have CarPlay and whether or not you like

01:58:34 ◼   ► the census as they call it, which is basically their infotainment

01:58:38 ◼   ► setup. And that is one of the things that I think is

01:58:42 ◼   ► most frustrating about Aaron's car, because particularly startup takes an eternity.

01:58:46 ◼   ► But the CarPlay implementation is really solid and really really good.

01:58:50 ◼   ► And so I would hope and assume that it would also

01:58:54 ◼   ► be good in this new Polestar. And CarPlay, you know

01:58:58 ◼   ► I don't know if it's essential today, although I personally refuse to buy

01:59:02 ◼   ► a car without it for future proofing reasons, but it is really nice.

01:59:06 ◼   ► I don't use it that terribly often in my car, usually only if I'm in the car for more than a little

01:59:10 ◼   ► bit or if I'm navigating with my phone, which I don't do that terribly often because I don't

01:59:14 ◼   ► go new and exciting places that terribly often. But I

01:59:18 ◼   ► really like CarPlay a lot and I've really been glad that I've had

01:59:22 ◼   ► it on the occasions that I do use it. Can I just tell you that this

01:59:26 ◼   ► configurator website is the worst one I've ever

01:59:30 ◼   ► seen in my life. These giant semi-transparent overlays block the view of the car you're trying to

01:59:34 ◼   ► configure. It's not obvious how to pick things. Fire the company that made this website.

01:59:38 ◼   ► Yeah, it's not good. Fire this company. Like it took me the longest time to figure out

01:59:42 ◼   ► how I picked different options because it's got the text on top, it's like slightly grayed out.

01:59:46 ◼   ► Yeah. Car configurers are not

01:59:50 ◼   ► high technology and this one has no features that those don't, it's just harder to use.

01:59:54 ◼   ► Bad Volvo. Bad. It took me a good amount of time looking

01:59:58 ◼   ► at this because the first thing you see is the exterior thing and it defaults to white.

02:00:02 ◼   ► And for a good like 15 seconds I'm looking

02:00:06 ◼   ► at this thinking, what an amazing control. This car is only coming in white.

02:00:10 ◼   ► Like of course Casey told me to go look at this and like poke through.

02:00:14 ◼   ► How could I not? Yeah. Oh, no, no, there is an X.

02:00:18 ◼   ► You can close that. I just did it by accident. There's a little close overlay.

02:00:22 ◼   ► Yeah, but then you can't pick things. Like the advanced technology of

02:00:26 ◼   ► car configurators is you have a bunch of choices and you click on them and then you see the picture of the car

02:00:30 ◼   ► change and neither one of those things blocks the other one. That's the technology.

02:00:34 ◼   ► Yeah, and I agree. But then you can hit the bread icon.

02:00:38 ◼   ► It's not a hamburger because there's no inside. It's not a hamburger. It's just bread. Chopsticks.

02:00:42 ◼   ► Yeah, it's just bread. It's a chopsticks icon. You hit the chopsticks and then it comes back.

02:00:46 ◼   ► And blocks your view again. And blocks your view again.

02:00:50 ◼   ► [BLANK_AUDIO]