00:00:06 ◼ ► even, that you shall start with all--did you ever--did we talk about that on this show,
00:00:11 ◼ ► the shall versus will versus whatever? When I was doing government contracting, whenever
00:00:22 ◼ ► software shall do x, y, or z. If will is not enough, the software shall do x, y, and z,
00:00:28 ◼ ► Well, I guess that makes sense because will means like a prediction of what it will do,
00:00:36 ◼ ► Can you not just substitute the word must for the word shall? Like, how are those different?
00:00:42 ◼ ► You got to look at the internet, RFCs, you know, those things, those big documents, right?
00:00:55 ◼ ► Well, I probably was. This was when I was working at a big, big, big government contractor.
00:01:00 ◼ ► We were doing stuff for the Navy, so it was all of that happy horse manure. But anyway,
00:01:08 ◼ ► So I just searched for must versus shall. The first result is a page on the FAA website,
00:01:22 ◼ ► a legal obligation that something is mandatory. Must not is prohibited. But apparently, shall
00:01:37 ◼ ► And they advise that you go through and replace shall with must wherever you use shall to
00:01:45 ◼ ► I put a link in the show. It's the IETF one, the RFC one. It's got must, must not, should,
00:01:51 ◼ ► should not, may, required, recommended, optional. It makes more sense than the one you were
00:01:57 ◼ ► just reading, but it is the place where programmers are most likely to come across these particular
00:02:15 ◼ ► I read the show notes several days ago as I was looking at something and the very first
00:02:27 ◼ ► because I'm a turd, I saw this and just cackled in excitement because I was like, "Oh, man,
00:02:32 ◼ ► it finally..." Oh, wait, this literally means a cheese grater, doesn't it? So, John, tell
00:02:41 ◼ ► grater that I have used once and got shamed for it, by the way. I'm assuming this is the
00:02:47 ◼ ► It's a little learning curve for the cheese grater. My computer's fine. We talked about
00:02:52 ◼ ► my kitchen stuff last show and I said, "Oh, it was like my cheese grater was on its last
00:02:55 ◼ ► leg that I didn't know how many I had in reserve." It really was on its last legs because between
00:03:04 ◼ ► little flappy thing on broke and it just came off. It's the same way they always fail. They
00:03:08 ◼ ► fail, you know, like a crack starts forming. It just creeps its way up. I nursed this one
00:03:16 ◼ ► was dead. So now I know how many I have left. I unboxed a new one and I'm using that one
00:03:28 ◼ ► Yeah, and I think I'm going to put a thing on the calendar. I guess recording this podcast
00:03:36 ◼ ► attention, but now I have a recorded version. So when this next one breaks, I'll be able
00:03:44 ◼ ► The real question that everyone wants to know is did you purchase for $75 a replacement
00:03:50 ◼ ► I did not. It was black only. I couldn't overcome that. I don't think I would have gotten it.
00:03:56 ◼ ► Like I said, unlike the cheese grater, the spatulas continue to function seemingly perfectly
00:04:01 ◼ ► like there is nothing wrong with them other than slight discoloration from food sticking
00:04:16 ◼ ► you're using something that's going to wear out, keyboards wear out, albeit slowly. These
00:04:21 ◼ ► cheese graters wear out way too quickly. Spatulas, they just last forever, kind of like this
00:04:33 ◼ ► I found the post on Instagram that I put up 289 weeks ago on December 21st of 2013 where
00:04:45 ◼ ► tried to be Italian. But anyway, I shredded some mozzarella and John absolutely mercilessly
00:05:15 ◼ ► I'm talking about the thing I use to grate Parmesan cheese, which I do frequently because
00:05:23 ◼ ► No, it's an Oxo model they don't make anymore, probably because it has a failed flaw and
00:05:32 ◼ ► ship now. The model they ship now is like, I don't know, just Google for like Oxo rotary
00:05:37 ◼ ► cheese grater. You'll see the current model and the current model is terrible. This old
00:05:45 ◼ ► Oh, is this, oh, this is the thing that they bring around at like Olive Garden, isn't it?
00:05:54 ◼ ► This is one of the options and this looks to me like what I would find at an Olive Garden.
00:05:58 ◼ ► Yeah. So that is, that is the current model and it is no good because if you try, if you
00:06:02 ◼ ► grate a lot of cheese and you try using that, your hands will hurt. It is not good. You
00:06:06 ◼ ► don't have good mechanical advantage because as you squeeze that handle, the, the pressure
00:06:12 ◼ ► on the part that is pressing down on the cheese is less than your, than your hand. Like you're
00:06:17 ◼ ► using a lever, but in reverse, right? It's like squeezing way down at the end, the force
00:06:34 ◼ ► Yep. So that's mine. So that one, you can't really see in the picture, but so that cylinder,
00:06:53 ◼ ► cheese down. Like the metal cylinder is going up and down. You, you slide the cheese down
00:07:02 ◼ ► entire hand. Like you are directly pressing it against the cylinder and then you rotate
00:07:06 ◼ ► the thing. So you basically, you put one hand around the cylinder and then the crank on
00:07:10 ◼ ► top, you turn. It's still kind of difficult to do, but it is pretty much as good as you
00:07:15 ◼ ► can get in terms of, I mean, there's no mechanical advantage to squeezing, but there's no mechanical
00:07:20 ◼ ► disadvantage and the turning thing is good. Inside it is a cylinder with very, very small,
00:07:36 ◼ ► $13 item in the show, in the chat room, which seems to me like it is roughly the same thing
00:07:45 ◼ ► Look at this little knob. Look at this little plastic, uncomfortable knob. It has to be
00:07:49 ◼ ► big, round, you know, grippy, oxo, rubberized, like that's the whole point of the thing.
00:07:56 ◼ ► And I don't even know how, where the cheese goes in this thing or how the gripping would
00:08:00 ◼ ► be and like that big protrusion coming out of it. You can't grip it from multiple angles.
00:08:05 ◼ ► Yeah, no, that's no good. Like I don't understand what that big orange thing is sticking out
00:08:18 ◼ ► metal cylinder, that's not the right shape for the grading. The holes in this thing are
00:08:28 ◼ ► Also, pre-graded costs even more money, first of all. But second of all, whatever machine
00:08:34 ◼ ► they have, like in Whole Foods that grades it for you, grades it too fine for my taste.
00:08:38 ◼ ► It's like tiny pieces of hair. It's too wispy. I want one step up from that. I like the texture
00:08:49 ◼ ► the bodies of these things, so when they all die, in theory, I will have the raw materials
00:08:56 ◼ ► to make some kind of Frankenstein cordless drill powered. I want an electric one. I don't
00:09:02 ◼ ► know how to do this by hand at all. I like just an electric one. All I need is something
00:09:50 ◼ ► fasten it any other way because for the cheese grater to work, it has to close completely.
00:09:56 ◼ ► You have to be able to close that thing down completely. For like the last little bit of
00:09:58 ◼ ► cheese, you have to basically get that cylinder so that it is basically the plastic is basically
00:10:02 ◼ ► touching the metal thing. Otherwise, you end up with that part of cheese that you can never
00:10:20 ◼ ► of glue or fastener or anything to strengthen it, it wouldn't close all the way and now
00:10:24 ◼ ► you've got basically a non-functional grater where you can never grate that last little
00:10:29 ◼ ► It's not a good design. They kind of messed up, but what they replaced it with is worse.
00:10:42 ◼ ► I think I bought like five or six back when I bought them and maybe that wasn't enough.
00:10:59 ◼ ► digging through their junk pile and realizing they too have a cache of vertically oriented
00:11:05 ◼ ► They're going to have a cache. They're going to have one and it'll be broken because they
00:11:10 ◼ ► Oh, man. I am very happy that I am not this particular about my tools. Remember this when
00:11:20 ◼ ► I'm sure I wouldn't be as particular, A, if I didn't have RSI and B, if I didn't eat quite
00:11:31 ◼ ► Can you get a mechanical grater or an electric grater of some kind? Do those exist for home
00:11:42 ◼ ► other than my hands, but I haven't found one that does the job. Lots of people recommend
00:11:46 ◼ ► food processors. I have many food processors. I have big ones and small ones. The problem
00:11:49 ◼ ► with most electric things is they go too fast and/or the holes are the wrong size. Going
00:11:57 ◼ ► have to basically turn it like at hand speed. You don't want to produce any heat. You just
00:12:10 ◼ ► smallest side of a box grater, but the same shape as the big side of a box grater, like
00:12:25 ◼ ► hand. Or if they do have a machine, it's probably with a really big crank, like a meat grinder
00:12:50 ◼ ► it. And now press on the plus sign from the inside so that the four little triangles formed
00:13:18 ◼ ► Anyway, I think they might be using something like that, but whatever they use, it makes
00:13:20 ◼ ► it incredibly fine. I mean, you know, it's very wispy. It's not bad, it's just not particularly
00:13:37 ◼ ► No, it's not a microplane. The cost of like pre-grated parmesan cheese is so expensive.
00:13:43 ◼ ► Well, yeah. So since everyone will tell us, is there a reason you don't use a microplane
00:14:04 ◼ ► Oh, man. You know, just earlier today, I think it was, I listened to 99 PI and they were talking
00:14:11 ◼ ► about how we're going to eventually run out of sand. And I don't think that I personally
00:14:17 ◼ ► have to worry about that, but I am very worried, Jon, about when you run out of cheese graters.
00:14:23 ◼ ► Speaking of the ambiguity, this cheese grater computer has outlived many of those plastic
00:14:35 ◼ ► Something like that. All right. Also in the show notes for follow-up, deviation from the
00:14:39 ◼ ► Ive design philosophy. This sounds like a Jon thing to me. Tell me what's going on here.
00:14:51 ◼ ► of philosophy potentially exiting the company with him. We'll see what changes in the design
00:14:58 ◼ ► of stuff that comes out. But one way his design has made itself known is it extends everywhere.
00:15:13 ◼ ► you too, Casey. The mouse that should. And I was thinking about it because of the magic
00:15:18 ◼ ► Yeah, because I was having dark thoughts about like, who is it? It was because Marco, someone
00:15:25 ◼ ► Yeah, the planar IX, whatever. Yeah, we've seen it before. I don't think Macs can easily
00:15:39 ◼ ► with the little hole for the camera, but there's no actual camera there in the glass bonnet
00:15:43 ◼ ► surface. Anyway, I was having dark thoughts about it like, "I can't believe Apple is going
00:15:47 ◼ ► to sell you a computer and then the only option is the $7,000 monitor or whatever, and they
00:15:59 ◼ ► pick which one you want. And they continue to make them, despite the fact that it's much
00:16:03 ◼ ► easier to find a reasonable replacement mouse or keyboard than it is to find a reasonable
00:16:10 ◼ ► And so I was thinking about their peripherals. Obviously, the keyboard at this point, all
00:16:15 ◼ ► of the margins are tucked in on the thing. It's basically just a bunch of keys floating
00:16:20 ◼ ► in space. How are those keys even there? Is there any space around them and between them?
00:16:25 ◼ ► It's just keys. It's really boiled down to its essence again, the Johnny Ive philosophy.
00:16:41 ◼ ► Because there are different ways a mouse could be designed. I think we had a show on the
00:16:45 ◼ ► past where we had that diagram of all different ways people can hold a mouse. And it's not
00:16:49 ◼ ► like the Apple mouse is designed badly, but it is designed for a particular way of using
00:17:21 ◼ ► looks like it fits. It's next to that keyboard, it makes sense. Obviously, there's no cord
00:17:37 ◼ ► design philosophy changes a little bit, how far would be too far? And I was thinking even
00:17:43 ◼ ► in terms of the mouse, because if Apple came out with a new mouse, which they do once every
00:17:57 ◼ ► Imagine if it was more of the shape of a Microsoft mouse or a logic mouse. Not in terms of the
00:18:18 ◼ ► a high mouse aren't going to like it and vice versa. So it's not like it's an incorrect
00:18:21 ◼ ► or correct choice. But say Apple did make one, it was still beautiful and Apple detailed
00:18:31 ◼ ► the fat mouse to go with the fat man. It was bigger and fatter and it filled your hand.
00:18:49 ◼ ► bigger? And the answer is obviously because human hands are big and chewing gum is small.
00:18:59 ◼ ► that if you made it bigger, it might be easier for people to grip and find and use and manipulate,
00:19:04 ◼ ► blah, blah, blah. But if Apple did that, people would look at that fat mouse kind of like
00:19:09 ◼ ► the fat man and go, "Boy, Apple really needed Johnny Ive because he left and they made this
00:19:27 ◼ ► evidenced by Apple's product during the Johnny Ive era has become so synonymous with Apple
00:19:32 ◼ ► because he's been here so long and has such an important influence on so many important
00:19:36 ◼ ► products, that that's what people think of as Apple-like. So even if Apple, the company,
00:19:41 ◼ ► makes a Microsoft-style mouse and even if it's a great mouse and people love it, they're
00:20:10 ◼ ► Apple's current products and its past products for many years is a great one, it is not the
00:20:14 ◼ ► only one, the only reasonable design philosophy, especially when it comes to peripherals. So
00:20:19 ◼ ► I feel like our hope for the remote and maybe external keyboards and possibly mice, depending
00:20:26 ◼ ► on how you feel about the current one, hinges on the public's willingness to accept anything
00:20:32 ◼ ► that is not in line with the Johnny Ive minimalist essentialism design aesthetic. And I'm afraid
00:20:47 ◼ ► beautiful Ive-style thing that they're going to get backlash for it and I think that would
00:20:52 ◼ ► Well, we do see bits and pieces of pragmatism over appearance peeking through here and there.
00:21:10 ◼ ► first generation had the weird centered mid-hump and the current generation has the weird bottom
00:21:16 ◼ ► hump, which I think is even uglier. But they do that for a few highly functional reasons.
00:21:29 ◼ ► successful product as far as I can tell. We've owned a couple in our household and they're
00:21:34 ◼ ► good products. And Apple, it seems, was willing to make that trade-off. Like, look, we can't
00:21:39 ◼ ► make this beautiful and have it still function the way it needs to function. So they just
00:22:04 ◼ ► big tower with a bunch of weird holes in the front. It's giant, it's heavy, it's bulky,
00:22:09 ◼ ► it's weird looking. But it's all those things for utilitarian reasons. And for the customers
00:22:14 ◼ ► who need that and who buy that, the utility of it is more important than the aesthetics.
00:22:19 ◼ ► And so clearly, like Apple, even before I've officially left, Apple is able to occasionally
00:22:27 ◼ ► let that peak through. And it seems like maybe in recent years they're regaining their, what
00:22:34 ◼ ► I would describe as, confidence to ship something that doesn't look incredibly pretty but is
00:22:44 ◼ ► Like they have to be able to ship something like with a straight face that they know many
00:22:58 ◼ ► It was a trade-off and this is what came out." And so I don't think it's that unreasonable
00:23:11 ◼ ► light and have gotten enough customer feedback and enough sales data and everything over
00:23:15 ◼ ► the last few years to be able to revert certain decisions. Clearly the Mac Pro is one of the
00:23:20 ◼ ► biggest examples of that. We'll see and we'll talk about later what might be happening with
00:23:24 ◼ ► laptops in that department. But I think Apple had a really rough period where a whole lot
00:23:34 ◼ ► of decisions were being made for aesthetics over utility. And we told them about it over
00:23:49 ◼ ► was a bad period that we are clearly on our way out of, that we're already partially out
00:23:53 ◼ ► of it and it seems like there's more to come. So I don't think it's that unreasonable to
00:24:07 ◼ ► we do have a chance of stuff like that. I think we do have a chance that the next Apple TV
00:24:09 ◼ ► remote might be more ergonomic for instance. I think we were in a dark period but Apple
00:24:17 ◼ ► has clearly shown recently that they are willing to put utility first with some of their new
00:24:24 ◼ ► That's why I was entertaining the possibility because it seems like it is a possibility
00:24:28 ◼ ► but I think they'll get backlash. And I guess now that I think about it, it actually is
00:24:32 ◼ ► mostly focused on, you know, if you're thinking of cheese graters and OXO and all this stuff,
00:24:49 ◼ ► concerns about it. But for peripherals, like for remote controls, for keyboards and for
00:24:55 ◼ ► mice, for things that, like it's your interface to the computer, you know, indirect controls
00:25:00 ◼ ► that you grab. Kind of like controls in cars, the steering wheel, the shift lever, the turn
00:25:09 ◼ ► stuff work, it's the place of highest tension between making something look beautiful, so
00:25:20 ◼ ► everyone oohs and aahs. And making something that's good to use with your hands. And there's
00:25:25 ◼ ► not much of an intersection there. Like it's why OXO products tend to look so ugly, right?
00:25:39 ◼ ► be beautiful minimalist sculptures. Like those are slippery or slim or pointy or don't, you
00:25:45 ◼ ► know, don't match the negative space created by a gripping hand, because the negative space
00:25:53 ◼ ► it real hard and then open your hand and look what's left. It's not a beautiful sculpture,
00:26:14 ◼ ► I feel like if Apple did that, there would be a surprising amount of backlash, especially
00:26:19 ◼ ► given that like people would get used to it and everyone used mice like that and it would
00:26:35 ◼ ► we're not going to see, you know, like a pendulum swing dramatically the other direction. I
00:26:39 ◼ ► mean this design department has certainly been under Ive's leadership for what, 20 years
00:27:03 ◼ ► to be interesting watching how often we see function over form going forward because one
00:27:10 ◼ ► of the things that I think the three of us agree on is especially when it comes to things
00:27:13 ◼ ► like the thickness of devices, it seemed that it was form over function and so I'm curious
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00:29:24 ◼ ► You have somehow fallen upon, it just happened to you Marco, you have fallen upon a new iPhone
00:29:35 ◼ ► As you know, I'm running the betas on my main devices. I'm also working on a good mid-cycle
00:29:49 ◼ ► been a bug that I've been trying to replicate that people keep reporting where when you're
00:30:16 ◼ ► watch from the beta. Theoretically, I could bring it to an Apple store and have them send
00:30:20 ◼ ► it out and have them do it but I'm nowhere near an Apple store, that would be a big pain,
00:30:24 ◼ ► etc. So that wasn't really an option for me. I also didn't want to go that long without
00:30:35 ◼ ► have my one iPhone here with me at the beach and I'm doing a lot of development and I don't
00:30:40 ◼ ► have an iOS 12 test device. So I briefly decided to borrow Tiff's phone and Tiff's Apple watch
00:30:48 ◼ ► to try to run a test. She did not appreciate this at all. So I really needed something,
00:31:02 ◼ ► my regular ones that I could test the betas on but I really needed another test device.
00:31:07 ◼ ► I needed another Apple watch running watchOS 5 that I wouldn't put on the beta and I needed
00:31:35 ◼ ► I do keep a lot of my old phones, not all of them but a lot of them. I, however, didn't
00:31:47 ◼ ► and totally unusable now. It probably won't even boot anymore. But that happens with Apple
00:31:55 ◼ ► never be able to charge them again. They'll never power on again in all likelihood. The
00:32:18 ◼ ► test device is no longer going to be a useful test device once iOS 13 ships and I have to
00:32:29 ◼ ► but I went on Amazon and I'm like, "You know what? What do they actually cost?" And it turns
00:32:34 ◼ ► out you can get an iPhone SE, not refurbished because that means more, but renewed, which
00:32:40 ◼ ► means very little, it's basically very used. You can get a renewed iPhone SE unlocked on
00:32:48 ◼ ► Amazon for about $120. And that's really pretty good I thought. So I put one of those in my
00:32:56 ◼ ► cart and I thought, "Okay, now I got to have an Apple Watch to pair to it. What do used
00:33:05 ◼ ► the build and run cycle on Apple Watches improves drastically as you go more and more recent.
00:33:15 ◼ ► probably going to have to go Series 2. But it turns out you can get Series 3 Apple Watches,
00:33:39 ◼ ► reason I got the stainless steel in the cellular was it was only $20 more to get steel in the
00:33:43 ◼ ► cellular. I'm like, "Alright, sure." And so I got both these in. They came in, you know
00:33:49 ◼ ► the kind of packaging if you sell your phone or watch to Apple or Gazelle or one of those
00:34:02 ◼ ► Yeah, yeah. Amazon ships a lot of stuff in that. It's like when you're injured and they
00:34:06 ◼ ► put you on one of those stiff backboard things and then just like wrap you with surround
00:34:21 ◼ ► a piece of cardboard. That's how Apple intended them to be presented to the customers, I believe.
00:34:31 ◼ ► Yeah, yeah. When you have an entire iPhone for $120, you don't get such luxuries as genuine
00:34:37 ◼ ► Apple chargers. Like it was shipped with like a generic, definitely not MFI lightning cable
00:34:56 ◼ ► been put on a generic knockoff sport band. It looks very similar to the Apple white sport
00:35:02 ◼ ► band and how, if I didn't own many white Apple sport bands, I wouldn't be able to tell the
00:35:08 ◼ ► difference maybe, but because I own them and I have one right here, right next to it, I
00:35:20 ◼ ► watch and the Apple watch did appear to come with a genuine Apple charging cable because
00:35:25 ◼ ► I don't think it's as easy to come by generic Apple charging cables as it is for other things.
00:35:29 ◼ ► Did you look on the back of the Apple watch to make sure it doesn't say APPEL or anything
00:35:39 ◼ ► Like the thing is like it works. Like, so both of these things, I plugged them in and they
00:35:44 ◼ ► both work fine. Like there's a few dings on the cases. Like there's, you know, like the,
00:35:49 ◼ ► the iPhone especially has like a corner dent on one corner. Uh, but like everything works
00:35:54 ◼ ► at, you know, there were no scratches on the screens. Everything is fine. They charge up.
00:35:58 ◼ ► The battery seemed to be totally fine. There were a couple of interesting takeaways for
00:36:05 ◼ ► didn't put my SIM in it, but I had been playing with it a lot, like in the house, like leaving
00:36:08 ◼ ► my big iPhone 10 S behind, like on a countertop and just taking the SE with me and playing
00:36:20 ◼ ► the phone. Um, but, but I still think that, you know, $240 for last year's model of stainless
00:36:26 ◼ ► steel cellular 42 millimeter Apple watch is a really good deal. Um, and it kind of struck
00:36:35 ◼ ► to go used, you can get surprising discounts on Apple stuff. Like I, if you would've just
00:36:41 ◼ ► asked me before I looked like how much I thought these things would cost, I would've guessed
00:36:45 ◼ ► substantially higher than what they actually do. Uh, so that's, you know, number one, like
00:36:49 ◼ ► that's, it's kind of cool that this is available and like for 120 bucks, this is a lot of phone
00:37:05 ◼ ► 200 bucks. I mean, I don't know. I haven't looked at that, looked it up, but like I was
00:37:08 ◼ ► surprised like how nice it was for that price and the watch, especially, you know, $240
00:37:31 ◼ ► rounded corners, the, the, the shrunk bezels and the Apple watch faces that go more edge
00:37:38 ◼ ► to edge. The old Apple watch looks incredibly old when you see the screen turn on. Thanks
00:37:50 ◼ ► way. It really is like, especially like using my favorite face, the utility one, you know,
00:37:58 ◼ ► one when you're used to the new one because it just gets this massive black border around
00:38:02 ◼ ► it. So series four was actually a surprising upgrade in a lot of ways. Um, but I will say
00:38:08 ◼ ► otherwise, you know, it's fine. It performs well and it's just as buggy as the Apple watch
00:38:19 ◼ ► size phone for more than five minutes of testing, uh, in, since it was new since the, since
00:38:25 ◼ ► I owned the iPhone five S and it's actually a really good size for a lot in a lot of ways.
00:38:32 ◼ ► I'm surprised how well certain things still work on it. Like I'm surprised certain things,
00:38:38 ◼ ► you know, not, first of all, you pick it up, it looks awesome and it feels awesome. And
00:38:42 ◼ ► I heard on one of our friends, I forget which one I apologize, but I heard recently there
00:38:50 ◼ ► Johnny Ives like greatest designs? And I would put very high on the list, the iPhone five
00:39:01 ◼ ► he said in his review that it was such a nice object. It was like the nicest object he owned.
00:39:06 ◼ ► The iPhone five S I think refined a lot of it. And the se took away the polished chamfered
00:39:15 ◼ ► a time project, the iPhone five S was kind of the peak of it and it is just such a great
00:39:19 ◼ ► device. It is timeless looking. I still think it looks good. Even, you know, holding this,
00:39:24 ◼ ► this se in my hand, it's an old phone now, very old now and it's based on the even older
00:39:28 ◼ ► five S, but it is a, this, this wonderful, like the space gray with the black, you know,
00:39:39 ◼ ► design. And if you consider design to be the combination of how it looks and how it works,
00:39:46 ◼ ► I think the iPhone five S really was the peak of a lot of that entire class of iPhone before
00:39:54 ◼ ► they got big. I really, really enjoy this, this device as a physical object. And secondly,
00:39:59 ◼ ► the using it now when I'm, you know, I'm accustomed to the bigger phones now. So certain things
00:40:05 ◼ ► like typing are really hard. Once you're accustomed to the big phone, it's really hard to go down
00:40:09 ◼ ► a size for typing it. Like I made so many errors, just like typing my passcode and stuff.
00:40:18 ◼ ► scales down fairly well on most things. There were a few screens here and there that like
00:40:24 ◼ ► something would fall off the bottom because nobody tested it. But it actually scales very
00:40:28 ◼ ► well. And certain things like deleting a mail message by swiping, I know it's a stupid thing,
00:40:35 ◼ ► but it's something I do all day long. It feels much smoother and better on the, on the five
00:40:41 ◼ ► S than it does on my 10 S or I'm sorry, on the SE that doesn't on my tennis. And I don't
00:40:47 ◼ ► know if it's just because it has fewer pixels, maybe it's running things at a higher frame
00:40:58 ◼ ► it's a smaller screen, who knows? But certain things about the size just feel really good.
00:41:04 ◼ ► And it's like feelings that I've missed since I use this to the size on a regular basis.
00:41:12 ◼ ► this because it is, you know, it's, it's an iPhone six S internals. So it is kind of the
00:41:25 ◼ ► like in certain ways it feels like the past. Like when you, when you view certain things
00:41:30 ◼ ► and you see quite how narrow your text column is or like, you know, Instagram looks hilarious
00:41:35 ◼ ► by comparison, but like it is actually a really nice feeling phone and for 120 bucks, surprisingly
00:41:46 ◼ ► I feel like this we've talked so much about phone sizes on this show, but it's, it's an
00:41:52 ◼ ► issue that's never going to go away. If phones continue to be things with screens and then
00:41:56 ◼ ► that you hold in your hands because there's always that tension between there's the size
00:42:08 ◼ ► but still it's, you know, you could define that range. And then there's the screen where
00:42:13 ◼ ► we want to see more stuff all the time. And you have to find the sweet spot between how
00:42:20 ◼ ► much stuff do you want to see and how comfortable is it to hold in your hand, to manipulate,
00:42:24 ◼ ► to stick in your pocket. And those two things will never meet. There is no perfect compromise.
00:42:30 ◼ ► So we'll always kind of be oscillating depending on your, so if at any point, if we're in a
00:42:34 ◼ ► big phone error or a small phone error or somewhere in between, you pick another extreme,
00:42:38 ◼ ► you will find things about it that are better than whatever size phone you're using because
00:42:43 ◼ ► those two things are always in conflict with each other. There is no point where they'll,
00:42:47 ◼ ► you know, find each other exactly in the middle and we'll be like, I will never notice any
00:42:51 ◼ ► benefit by going smaller or larger. You will notice benefits going larger and you'll notice
00:42:55 ◼ ► benefits going smaller and disadvantages. And you know, it's, it's a constant compromise
00:43:16 ◼ ► That's another thing. Like it feels, this thing feels like nothing in my pocket because
00:43:31 ◼ ► it's really very small and it's, it's very lightweight compared, you know, the new phones
00:43:43 ◼ ► because it didn't have the glass back. And it's just, it's, it feels so good in so many
00:43:48 ◼ ► ways. Like the sleep wake buttons in a good spot. There's a headphone Jack on the bottom.
00:43:52 ◼ ► The volume up and down buttons feel great. I really like, there was that rumor that came
00:43:57 ◼ ► out, I think last week, we didn't have time to cover it in our show, but there was a rumor,
00:44:04 ◼ ► the one that I use, the 10 S line, the screen was gonna get a little bit smaller and in
00:44:08 ◼ ► the max line, the screen was gonna get a little bit bigger. And at first I thought, who, that's
00:44:13 ◼ ► such a slap in the face for 10 S owners. Like here, you get to either have a smaller thing
00:44:17 ◼ ► or pay even more and get a much bigger thing. But actually I think I might take that trade
00:44:23 ◼ ► off because it turns out like if you can take what you already have and get most of that
00:44:28 ◼ ► for a little bit smaller, that's kind of nice. I really like the way this tiny phone feels
00:44:40 ◼ ► That, that sort of the bouncing around I was talking about where, you know, you're, you're
00:44:43 ◼ ► sort of, there are, there are extremes and you're trying to find a sweet spot, but you're,
00:44:51 ◼ ► to generation or maybe two year or three year gap or whatever, let you get a phone and no
00:44:56 ◼ ► matter which direction you're going, you'd be like, Oh, there's some aspect of this that
00:45:03 ◼ ► in my pocket. There's always an advantage for you, but then also a disadvantage so that
00:45:10 ◼ ► smaller or narrowing down on a compromise. That's reasonable. But I think the oscillations
00:45:17 ◼ ► Apple feels like they have exactly correctly struck the balance between size, weight, screen,
00:45:24 ◼ ► real estate, all of those things. Like they always, they should always oscillate because
00:45:35 ◼ ► good and interesting and make people not regret their purchase. And then, you know, eventually
00:45:43 ◼ ► Uh, Declan, well, both the kids use a, some iPhone app. I don't even remember what it's
00:46:10 ◼ ► time I do, I'm just gobsmacked by how perfectly it fits in my hand. And maybe your hand is
00:46:16 ◼ ► bigger than mine. Maybe your hand is smaller than mine. But for me, the, the five almost
00:46:26 ◼ ► I think to myself, why the hell am I carrying this tremendous like fablet, which it really
00:46:32 ◼ ► isn't, but it feels like a fablet by comparison of an iPhone 10 in my pocket every day. But
00:46:42 ◼ ► see like six words of text on screen. Then suddenly I remember why I have this comparatively
00:46:47 ◼ ► enormous phone in my pocket. And, and yeah, I think you're right, John, that, you know,
00:46:55 ◼ ► big for my taste, but you know, at least I'm not one of those, you know, plus or max monsters,
00:47:00 ◼ ► you know, like, like Mike Hurley is. I don't know how that guy survives. It's funny. Like,
00:47:04 ◼ ► you know, when I, when I first started using it, I think I think the same thing like, wow,
00:47:08 ◼ ► what a tiny little window that I'm seeing all this content in. But like, as I play with
00:47:12 ◼ ► it, it's so damn fast. Like it for, for the phone that is the lowest end supported phone
00:47:20 ◼ ► for the new OS, it sure is fast on iOS 12. Like it, it is surprising how fast it is. And
00:47:28 ◼ ► it just not, I'm not, you know, benchmarking, but just like just the way it feels to do
00:47:32 ◼ ► things. Like I mentioned the mail thing earlier, like, and again, I don't know whether it's
00:47:36 ◼ ► just that my fingers need to travel less distance. So like, it's, it's just like faster and wall
00:47:50 ◼ ► just feels so nimble because you can just fly around it so fast because you're not spending
00:47:54 ◼ ► any time adjusting your grip at all or reaching across long distances at all. It's just really,
00:48:01 ◼ ► really nice and surprisingly fast in basic operation for such an old device. So I actually
00:48:07 ◼ ► like, I mean, you know, I don't think I could ever switch to one, you know, that's this
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00:49:47 ◼ ► So you have new toys. I want a new toy, guys. What was it, yesterday? That Apple announced
00:49:54 ◼ ► that they have done me some good things and they have done me some bad things. So Apple
00:50:08 ◼ ► Sort of. But they have killed my beloved adorable. The MacBook One, also known as the MacBook
00:50:30 ◼ ► I should do from here, but before we get to that, we should probably run through the changes
00:50:35 ◼ ► that have come from Apple over the last 24 hours. So the MacBook Air now has True Tone.
00:50:40 ◼ ► It is now down $100. So instead of being $1200, it is now $1100 and importantly $999 for students.
00:50:52 ◼ ► The 13 inch MacBook Pro is now on 8th generation quad core CPUs. It is $1299, $1300, which
00:51:00 ◼ ► is the same price as the Escape once was. And like I said, the MacBook Adorable is dead.
00:51:07 ◼ ► Apparently, Apple just really hates our nicknames, almost as much as Steven Hackett does.
00:51:18 ◼ ► to the Escape. The Escape is not dead. There are still two very different 13 inch MacBook
00:51:43 ◼ ► You lost the Escape. The Escape is definitely dead. The MacBook Escape was, yes, the computer
00:51:53 ◼ ► I know. Well, the name is dead, but the computer lives on. They're still selling two very
00:51:59 ◼ ► different computers as kind of the same thing. It just had two different price points, but
00:52:06 ◼ ► it's like, oh, this one has only two ports and this one has four ports. And the CPU clock
00:52:10 ◼ ► speeds are very different. The internals are completely differently laid out. It's a very
00:52:15 ◼ ► different machine. So the Escape is not dead. We just can't call it that anymore because
00:52:38 ◼ ► Actually, I'll get to that later during escape2p. But anyway, so these are some really odd updates.
00:52:46 ◼ ► So first of all, the MacBook Air got "updated," but the only changes are the display got True
00:52:55 ◼ ► Tone, which is very minor, the price got lowered, and I've also heard that the SSD is slower,
00:53:13 ◼ ► Right. And what's extra weird about this is that there is the Mingshe Quo thing last week.
00:53:33 ◼ ► fall or last winter, whenever it was, like December, whenever it was, when Apple slightly
00:53:46 ◼ ► So it wasn't really a full-blown update. It was just like a new, a slight adjustment to
00:53:51 ◼ ► what was available for it. I think this is kind of like that. I think they've taken the
00:54:02 ◼ ► butterfly keyboard with the new materials. So that's one change that has definitely happened
00:54:12 ◼ ► and it has apparently possibly a slower SSD, which probably allowed it to drop that price
00:54:16 ◼ ► down a little bit. It seems more like a slight revision that was timed specifically to capture
00:54:23 ◼ ► the back-to-school market, which for the MacBook Air is a pretty substantial buying period.
00:54:32 ◼ ► is being presented, PR-wise, as a refresh to the MacBook Air, but it really, I don't think
00:54:39 ◼ ► it really is one. I think it's a very slight mid-cycle tweak that is mostly a price drop
00:54:44 ◼ ► and a few very small modifications to achieve that. But I think that's about it. The Escape
00:54:51 ◼ ► change is more substantial because that one got completely new CPUs that are now quad-core
00:54:56 ◼ ► before it was dual-core at the 15-watt level. So the Escape now got the quad-core CPUs,
00:55:19 ◼ ► the Escape, or what is now, the artist formerly known as the Escape, got an actual real genuine
00:55:34 ◼ ► what happened to the Air an update. And that's why I think that the Ming-Shi Kuo rumor about
00:55:46 ◼ ► invalidates that or makes that much less likely. I think these can both be true. That the MacBook
00:56:01 ◼ ► frequently. They went through the bad period of the 2016 era, updating things on a various
00:56:14 ◼ ► the last couple years, they have shown a pattern of updating the laptops whenever, or at least
00:56:24 ◼ ► the laptops that matter to them whenever they can. Basically whenever there is something
00:56:29 ◼ ► new to update to, they do it. They did the mid-cycle GPU update. They did this 2018 revision
00:56:35 ◼ ► like this spring. And you know, like brand new things as soon as they could. So I'm guessing
00:56:42 ◼ ► that whatever rumor stuff is coming out with the new keyboard this fall/this winter/next
00:56:50 ◼ ► think these updates necessarily preclude that. Simply because that would only be like six
00:56:57 ◼ ► I'm not the biggest laptop fan, but I continue to look at these various revisions, new materials,
00:57:06 ◼ ► reshuffling of the line. It's just like, who cares until they get a new keyboard? My brain
00:57:16 ◼ ► It's kind of like with the Mac Pro. It's like, are you going to come out with the Mac Pro?
00:57:26 ◼ ► the Mac Pro, which was never actually updated. They keep shipping products, but it's like,
00:57:31 ◼ ► okay, fine. But you know, I can't recommend these to people without a big long explanation
00:57:40 ◼ ► great that they're updating them and simplifying the line and all that other stuff. But it's
00:57:45 ◼ ► like, it doesn't matter. Like it's not deck chairs on the Titanic because it's not going
00:57:52 ◼ ► be better. And honestly, we haven't even heard, at least I haven't, whether the new materials
00:58:00 ◼ ► reliability problem and we're just left with the key layout and typing feel, which is a
00:58:05 ◼ ► thing that some people may like and some people may not like. But I just, I've just given
00:58:14 ◼ ► waiting for the new laptops and it'll be great if they come up with the Air and the other
00:58:18 ◼ ► one, but then we'll be like, okay, well who's left? Who's left still with the old keyboard,
00:58:26 ◼ ► recommend the new Air if it had a different keyboard. And you know, a couple minor tweaks
00:58:31 ◼ ► here and there, but like, I can't get excited about these revisions and you know, getting
00:58:38 ◼ ► rid of the escape makes sense to me because that computer never really made much sense.
00:58:42 ◼ ► And you know, sort of folding it in to be a sheep in wolf's clothing, so to speak. It's
00:58:47 ◼ ► got a touch bar and everything, but it's half the ports and half the number of cores and
00:58:52 ◼ ► everything. I think the only, the only part of this that I'm interested in is the MacBook
00:59:07 ◼ ► that it was slow. I always hoped that it would travel the same path as the original Air where
00:59:12 ◼ ► it started off as an oddity, pushing the boundaries of technology and then eventually got its
00:59:24 ◼ ► technology and it got like one foot under it and then it just was thrown in the garbage
00:59:29 ◼ ► can. So I mean, obviously it is the most awesome and obvious candidate for a revision to have
00:59:37 ◼ ► an ARM CPU to have even better battery life and even less power. I do wonder if there's
00:59:43 ◼ ► room in that form factor for the scissor switch keyboards with double travel. Maybe with,
00:59:48 ◼ ► again, maybe with an ARM CPU there'll be more room inside there. Shout everything out of
00:59:52 ◼ ► the way of the keyboard and there'll still be enough room for the battery for that tiny
00:59:55 ◼ ► little ARM CPU. So if when the ARM Macs come out, I'll really be looking forward to the
00:59:59 ◼ ► resurrection of, we're gonna have to call it the adorable. That was a CGP Grey who came
01:00:04 ◼ ► up with the adorable. Yep. Yeah. I think we're gonna have to call it that because I really
01:00:08 ◼ ► hope that if they do resurrect this computer as an ARM computer, it will have more than
01:00:18 ◼ ► just seems like the MacBook ones was too thin to live. I would imagine you can't put in
01:00:26 ◼ ► the current MacBook one, you can't swap out that keyboard for one with more travel because
01:00:45 ◼ ► apparently that fits the bill to be able to fit in a fanless enclosure that is way faster,
01:00:50 ◼ ► but there are a bunch of CPUs in fanless enclosures and products made by Apple that are really
01:01:07 ◼ ► me up when there's a new keyboard. Yeah. And I wouldn't necessarily disagree with that.
01:01:17 ◼ ► anything's going to come out with an ARM version, the tiniest little 12-inch MacBook was one
01:01:23 ◼ ► of the top candidates to have it first. But I think in general, I was very surprised that
01:01:29 ◼ ► it was canceled. I have since heard from a number of different people, apparently sales
01:01:33 ◼ ► of it were very low, that it didn't sell well. And I can't say I'm surprised by that. I think
01:01:45 ◼ ► whatever 101? It was the 13-inch non-retina MacBook Pro with the DVD drive that was kept
01:01:53 ◼ ► in the lineup forever. I think it was a 2011 model, I think, or a 2012 model maybe, and
01:02:11 ◼ ► because it was a roughly $1100 computer. So it was like an inexpensive, by Apple standards,
01:02:18 ◼ ► an inexpensive laptop. You could replace the hard drive and the RAM easily down the road.
01:02:24 ◼ ► So it was serviceable long-term. It was cheap to spec up. You could put a spinning disk
01:02:36 ◼ ► to worry about, like one less limitation that they had with the computer. And yeah, it was
01:02:40 ◼ ► non-retina but everyone mostly didn't care. And so they sold a ton of those 101s because
01:02:52 ◼ ► willing to take something that wasn't particularly new. And when they eventually discontinued
01:02:58 ◼ ► that, what replaced it in that role was the 13" MacBook Air, the old one. Again, by that
01:03:04 ◼ ► time that was actually a pretty old computer as well. It was also like non-retina, also
01:03:10 ◼ ► 13", also about $1100. You can see a lot of parallels here. It didn't have the replaceable
01:03:56 ◼ ► laptop for yourself and you wanted something at the lower end, why would you get the 12"
01:04:02 ◼ ► when you could get, until recently, the crappy old 13" MacBook Air which was actually a
01:04:18 ◼ ► was bigger and heavier but most people didn't care that much compared to what they got for
01:04:46 ◼ ► of satisfied or it had a lot of customers. Almost everyone I knew who had one, you included
01:05:25 ◼ ► you would need a dongle. So it was like laughably annoying to own this computer. But a lot of
01:05:39 ◼ ► see there is a role for that but I think what this probably confirms, first the going almost
01:05:52 ◼ ► confirms is just not enough people are willing to tolerate all those trade-offs. A lot of
01:06:02 ◼ ► because it takes way more trade-offs to get it to where it is than the MacBook Air did.
01:06:10 ◼ ► Even the old 11-inch MacBook Air needed fewer trade-offs than what the 12-inch MacBook needed.
01:06:15 ◼ ► The 12-inch MacBook was a massive pile of massive trade-offs to get a little bit smaller,
01:06:26 ◼ ► Like the original Air, like I said, a huge amount of trade-offs to get a little bit thinner,
01:06:31 ◼ ► it can fit them in an envelope but honestly it was basically just like taking an existing
01:06:40 ◼ ► Air, the next one that came out was 5% better. You needed that big jump with the 2011 model
01:06:47 ◼ ► or whatever when they did the revised one. It's like finally this is a really good computer
01:06:51 ◼ ► now. And so suddenly all the attractive attributes are still attractive and they got rid of all
01:06:58 ◼ ► the downsides and I just felt like they couldn't do that with the One. If they could have made
01:07:02 ◼ ► the MacBook One, they could have taken it in two directions. One is it could have become
01:07:04 ◼ ► like the Air where it's the computer that's good enough for everybody and it's inexpensive
01:07:09 ◼ ► and super light. And the other direction they could have taken it if they couldn't do that
01:07:11 ◼ ► is make it the luxury model. If they could have made the MacBook One three times faster
01:07:20 ◼ ► tons of money, you can get this amazing computer. It's super fast and it's incredibly small."
01:07:25 ◼ ► But there was no option to do that. Like there is no CPU they could put in there that could
01:07:28 ◼ ► do that, right? So with Arm, I feel like they have both options on the table. They can make
01:07:38 ◼ ► maybe a resurrection of the 2011 MacBook Air, the one we say, "Why would you not get this
01:07:41 ◼ ► one? Unless you need more than three ports," I'm getting greedy here, "more than two ports
01:07:47 ◼ ► maybe, get this model because it's fast enough for you and it's so thin and it's got a new
01:07:59 ◼ ► iPad CPU in there and say like, "This is expensive, but boy is it thin and it's super fast and
01:08:05 ◼ ► it's got four ports on it or something." So I think we'll be seeing a computer like this
01:08:11 ◼ ► again in our future, but it could never get out of its own way. It spent its entire time
01:08:17 ◼ ► with the, what the hell was that, the spinning disk in the original MacBook Air, like 120
01:08:29 ◼ ► So as someone who has lived with one and only one MacBook Adorable/Macbook One, I did only
01:08:35 ◼ ► purchase one. I think that's because I got the most recent one and then they killed it.
01:08:41 ◼ ► So I agree with what you had said earlier, Marco. I would have taken the underscore approach
01:08:45 ◼ ► where if they had revved this today, I probably would have already placed an order. Not definitely,
01:08:53 ◼ ► but probably. And having lived with this computer for two years, especially when I was in my
01:08:59 ◼ ► anti-iPad days, which was basically up until the new iPad Pros last fall, it was amazing.
01:09:06 ◼ ► Yeah, it was a little bit slow, but it was rare, usually, up until vignette, it was rare
01:09:12 ◼ ► that I was doing anything that really required a whole lot of oomph on it. And so it was
01:09:16 ◼ ► this, it was basically an iPad that was an actual computer. Ha ha, yes, I know. I'm not
01:09:26 ◼ ► OS. And that was amazing. That was so amazing. And I loved that so much. And I still do love
01:09:37 ◼ ► this computer, but as I'm doing ever more development on it, I'm finding that I am ever
01:09:42 ◼ ► more annoyed with how slow it really is. And so, a couple people lit me up on Twitter saying,
01:09:50 ◼ ► "How could you need to replace a two-year-old computer? I haven't needed to replace a two-year-old
01:10:00 ◼ ► But yeah, buy the 12-inch MacBook, which was underpowered the moment I bought it. And I
01:10:07 ◼ ► I wanted something ultra-hyper portable. And that was the number one priority to me. And
01:10:12 ◼ ► in that, this thing has succeeded tremendously because it is unbelievably portable. However,
01:10:27 ◼ ► it is not often that I want to plug in two things, but it is also not rare. And so, just
01:10:35 ◼ ► earlier tonight, it has decided that the time machine backup on my Synology is somehow corrupt,
01:10:41 ◼ ► and it would like to start over and make a new one. And so, I thought, "Okay, I'm probably
01:10:48 ◼ ► just in the computer. But anyway, I'm going to have to plug in an Ethernet adapter. Oh,
01:10:52 ◼ ► wait, that means I need to go get my dongle. Oh, and the Ethernet adapter and the dongler
01:10:55 ◼ ► across the room, and I'm recording right now, so I guess I'm not doing that, am I? And that
01:11:00 ◼ ► just gets frustrating. Or, hey, I would really like to plug in my phone to debug and also
01:11:05 ◼ ► be plugged into power. Yes, it's dongle time. It's just--stuff like that is very frustrating.
01:11:14 ◼ ► experience--but I can't help but wonder, if this thing had two ports, would it have sold
01:11:27 ◼ ► port thing was very, very frustrating, particularly once I started developing with it, when I
01:11:39 ◼ ► I have a USB-C to Lightning cable, which works great, but then I can't power the thing. And
01:11:46 ◼ ► so then, especially now, I'm asking this dog-slow CPU to do something that requires a lot of
01:11:52 ◼ ► CPU power, so now I'm murdering my battery, and I'm charging my phone off of the laptop
01:11:57 ◼ ► battery, so I'm murdering it twice over. And it's getting hot, because it's fanless. Exactly.
01:12:03 ◼ ► So it's like the perfect storm of awful for this computer. And I still love this computer,
01:12:09 ◼ ► and I will always love this computer, because it is such an unbelievably cool piece of technology.
01:12:20 ◼ ► have probably bought a revved version earlier today, if such a thing existed. But I've gotten
01:12:27 ◼ ► to the point that I really think that I need more power. And we are skipping a little bit
01:12:39 ◼ ► And I went to the Apple Store today because I thought to myself, we're going to talk about
01:12:42 ◼ ► this tonight. And I want to handle a 13-inch Air and a 13-inch MacBook Pro, because the
01:12:49 ◼ ► last 13-inch Air I've handled is Aaron's, which not only has it been underwater several times,
01:12:55 ◼ ► but... Yeah, you're still allowed to handle it? Yeah, well, that's true. But I don't even
01:12:58 ◼ ► remember how old that thing is, but it's easily four or five years old. It is not young at
01:13:04 ◼ ► this point. It might even be older than that, I don't recall. I don't even know what version
01:13:08 ◼ ► of Mac OS is on it. It might even be a version of OS X, that's how old it is. But anyway,
01:13:18 ◼ ► enormous compared to my Adorable. And I don't really have experiences with 13-inch Pros
01:13:26 ◼ ► or 13-inch Airs other than that one. So I went to the Apple Store today and I went looking
01:13:30 ◼ ► at the Escape, because it was still an Escape in my store at this point. And I went looking
01:13:35 ◼ ► at the Pro and then I went looking at the Air as well. And as it turns out, these things
01:13:48 ◼ ► You've been working out. And I'm looking at these things and I actually brought my computer
01:13:54 ◼ ► bag with me with my laptop in it. And of course, I feel like I'm looking as though I'm preparing
01:13:58 ◼ ► to steal these things. But be that as it may, I'm trying to look confident. And if you look
01:14:14 ◼ ► my name is not John Siracusa and I'm allowed to. And in 2017, I paid $1,744.82 for my loaded
01:14:25 ◼ ► MacBook Adorable. It was as loaded as I could get it. Which, by the way, I thought I paid
01:14:29 ◼ ► like over $2,000 for that. So it was cheaper than I remember it being. But anyway, it is
01:14:42 ◼ ► I looked at Apple's website earlier tonight, is 2.75 pounds. So that's effectively three
01:14:48 ◼ ► quarters of a pound heavier. It is also, the way I would have configured it, it is $1,900.
01:14:56 ◼ ► it, which is the 1.6 gigahertz Core i5, the 16 gigs of memory, one terabyte SSD, and that,
01:15:04 ◼ ► of course, has two Thunderbolt 3 ports. How amazing would that be, ladies and gentlemen?
01:15:25 ◼ ► But there's really not that much difference here. I could do the Air. So then I go over
01:15:28 ◼ ► to the 13-inch MacBook Pro and I start looking at the Escape and then I'm boinging back and
01:15:33 ◼ ► forth between the Escape and the real, quote-unquote, "real" MacBook Pro. Come to find out that's
01:16:07 ◼ ► And maybe I'm just trying to convince myself. Maybe I'm just trying to justify a purchase
01:16:11 ◼ ► Marco style. But it really felt unbelievably small and light. And the way I think I would
01:16:17 ◼ ► configure it is $2,400. So it is nearly $1,000 more than I spent on my MacBook Adorable, which
01:16:23 ◼ ► again, $1,700 versus $2,400. But I think the way I would configure it is a 2.4 gigahertz
01:16:36 ◼ ► up to the next CPU, which is $300 more. And I would think about-- and I think that's an
01:16:46 ◼ ► a total of two terabytes, for an additional $400 more. So if I did both of those things,
01:16:51 ◼ ► it would be just over $3,000, which is more than I'd like to spend. But I'd at least consider
01:16:55 ◼ ► it. But if I were to buy a new computer today, I really think I would get the 13-inch MacBook
01:17:02 ◼ ► Pro, because it really isn't that much heavier. And I don't think I need the ultimate in portability
01:17:09 ◼ ► anymore, because if I do, that's why I have my iPad Pro, which I also really, really love.
01:17:14 ◼ ► Well, it's too bad you're forbidden from buying a new computer until they have new keyboards,
01:17:42 ◼ ► Marco would tell you you could get a stainless steel MacBook along with cellular for like
01:17:52 ◼ ► Yeah, so if you really were in a bind, you had to get something today, I agree with you,
01:17:57 ◼ ► the 13-inch MacBook Pro, and I would say get the one with four ports. It's nicer. You've
01:18:03 ◼ ► served your time in one port purgatory. Just get the one with all the ports next. You've
01:18:17 ◼ ► today, you are looking at right now, the ones that were updated now and the ones that were
01:18:23 ◼ ► updated in May, you are looking at what are likely to be the very last butterfly keyboard
01:18:31 ◼ ► Chances are the butterfly keyboard era will come to an end within the next year, possibly
01:18:55 ◼ ► it'll only be like old models they're still selling, but like all the new ones will have
01:19:00 ◼ ► scissor keyboards. That's my guess. And I think that's one of the reasons why they killed
01:19:03 ◼ ► the 12-inch because they can't do it for that one. It won't fit. But I think there's enough
01:19:08 ◼ ► room in the other ones, especially if they're willing to revise them slightly or make them
01:19:12 ◼ ► slightly thicker or slightly change the taper or whatever else. I think there's enough room
01:19:16 ◼ ► in the other ones where they probably could do it in all the other, including the 13-inch
01:19:20 ◼ ► air. But I bet a year from now you will be able to get a range of multiple Apple laptops
01:19:26 ◼ ► with scissor cues. And if you get the very last butterfly laptop just out of impatience
01:19:43 ◼ ► So I'm sorry. So state your bet one more time. So you're saying that there will be no new
01:19:48 ◼ ► models with scissor, with butterfly switches? My bet is, is in one year, the vast majority
01:19:56 ◼ ► of laptops Apple sells, like model wise, not like, you know, volume wise, like the vast
01:20:00 ◼ ► majority of models they sell, possibly all of them, but I'm not that confident in that.
01:20:10 ◼ ► Got it. It is in D-U-E. I'm not willing to like bet any money on that. I'm not that confident
01:20:15 ◼ ► in this, but it's just a feeling I have. Like, I just think, I think this is the end of the
01:20:19 ◼ ► butterfly. This is such a weak bet. You're not even willing to say they'll all have it.
01:20:23 ◼ ► You're just the vast majority. Are you willing, are you willing to bet that Apple doesn't
01:20:27 ◼ ► sell an old model laptop for a long time these days? No. You're sounding so confident. Then
01:20:32 ◼ ► you're like, I think there'll be some models with new keyboards. Of course there will be
01:20:39 ◼ ► to be all of them or most of them at least. You said the vast majority. So there's only
01:20:44 ◼ ► like four models. So that means you'd have to have like three of them. Well, cause like
01:20:48 ◼ ► what they might do is like, you know, make the new Mac book air that Ming Chi Kuo predicted
01:20:53 ◼ ► and have that be $200 more and keep this old one around at $999 for a while. Like it could
01:20:59 ◼ ► be something like that. Right. So that's why I don't want to say all of them, but I think
01:21:03 ◼ ► most of them a year from now will have scissor keys. I think maybe you could, you could have
01:21:08 ◼ ► a, would you agree that they're not going to make any new computers with butterfly keyboards
01:21:14 ◼ ► as in it's a new case design, a new form factor. Like that's the easier bet to say. Like these
01:21:24 ◼ ► go as far as to say that the computers that they revised yesterday are the last revisions
01:21:30 ◼ ► even that I think will have butterfly keyboards. You just think they might, they might keep
01:21:33 ◼ ► selling them. Yes. Tim Cook. Like, like I, yeah, I think like the air that they slightly
01:21:39 ◼ ► touched, like they're probably going to keep selling that as their cheapest computer for
01:21:45 ◼ ► a while because that's just how they do things. But I bet, I bet all revisions that will occur
01:21:52 ◼ ► after yesterday will be scissor keys. I don't think you're wrong, but I am interested to
01:21:58 ◼ ► see how this turns out. And you're going to be, you're going to so regret it if you bought
01:22:02 ◼ ► the last, but not even I bought the last butterfly. I haven't bought one since last year, but,
01:22:08 ◼ ► but remember that I actually do like the butterfly keyboard and truth be told, I have not yet
01:22:14 ◼ ► had a bigger issue than something that I needed compressed air for with my adorable in two
01:22:19 ◼ ► years. Hold on. Didn't, didn't you have to bring your computer to your dad's like automotive
01:22:23 ◼ ► power air compressor? No, no, no, no. I didn't have to. It just so happened. I know what
01:22:33 ◼ ► just so happened that I was at his house when I had an issue and I was like, Hey, do you
01:22:40 ◼ ► got when I once asked a friend of mine from college if his twin sister was identical or
01:22:44 ◼ ► not. But anyway, um, he did. My dad just kind of looked at me and said, yes, yes, I have
01:22:50 ◼ ► compressed hair. And so we went out to the garage just because it was easy. I don't have
01:22:53 ◼ ► compressed air. I do have this jet engine. Just put your laptop behind this. You've met
01:22:58 ◼ ► my dad. That would be his style. But, um, but no, I've never had to have the thing serviced
01:23:03 ◼ ► more seriously than me or dad taking compressed air to it. But yet I fear the thought that
01:23:20 ◼ ► if you don't need to? Yeah, yeah, you're right. Why would I be buying a laptop right now?
01:23:25 ◼ ► I feel like we're so close. Yeah. You know, it's like there have been, there are multiple
01:23:29 ◼ ► rumors from multiple directions that the scissor keyboards are coming this fall or this winter.
01:23:35 ◼ ► That's not that far away. And imagine if the new air is made with the design philosophy
01:23:42 ◼ ► embodied by the iMac Pro, the Mac mini and the Mac Pro, and it comes out and it's, it's
01:23:46 ◼ ► got four ports on the side of it and a better CPU and a new keyboard and an SD card slot
01:23:52 ◼ ► that you buy that instantly. You'd be like, thank God I didn't buy another laptop. This
01:23:55 ◼ ► is finally a good MacBook Air again. You know, that's not going to have an SD card slot, but
01:24:04 ◼ ► think it'll have four ports. Honestly, there is some embodiment of more boards. I probably
01:24:08 ◼ ► won't have more ports too, but I'm just saying, well, this is what I'm thinking. Like again,
01:24:10 ◼ ► with the design philosophy, if they just took the existing MacBook Air and just put a fricking
01:24:15 ◼ ► scissor keyboard in it, like that would be a great computer. It's better, but like, honestly,
01:24:20 ◼ ► I'm done with the bargaining. It's like, okay, why don't you just make your laptops good
01:24:27 ◼ ► on? The answer is yes, you could, but don't stubbornly refuse to like, don't go for that
01:24:32 ◼ ► minimalism. Make a MacBook Air with more than two ports. You can do it. It will work. People
01:24:44 ◼ ► SD card slot, two, two ports and SD card slot or more than two ports. This is the line I'm
01:24:48 ◼ ► drawing for the MacBook Air that was finished being designed a year and a half ago, which
01:24:52 ◼ ► is the other problem with expecting something new to come out of Apple. We have to wait.
01:25:01 ◼ ► So one other thing we do have to cover quickly is that Apple is fairly dramatically lowered
01:25:05 ◼ ► their SSD prices. And so from 9 to 5 Mac, the four terabyte SSD of the 512 gig, 15 inch
01:25:28 ◼ ► comes with an SSD of some size that is less than four terabytes, throw out that SSD and
01:25:38 ◼ ► Yep. And I think that's actually really great. And I haven't been quite as bitter at Apple
01:25:51 ◼ ► while ago. It used to be that they would absolutely gouge you on, well, at that time it was spinning
01:26:03 ◼ ► have to make your money and it's convenient, blah, blah, blah. And okay, that makes sense.
01:26:07 ◼ ► You know, $2,800, that does not make sense. $1,400 doesn't make sense to me, but I feel
01:26:18 ◼ ► spec up a machine from anyone else who sells you complete computers, from Dell, from HP,
01:26:25 ◼ ► from Alienware, like whatever it is, whoever you're buying from, any kind of like RAM or
01:26:35 ◼ ► what you can go to Amazon or Newegg or whatever and buy your own for. It's always done that
01:26:51 ◼ ► from Apple. SSD storage has gone through a massive price collapse over the last few months.
01:26:56 ◼ ► It's awesome. You can get cheap, very, very cheap third party SSDs now from other companies
01:27:02 ◼ ► that are very big and very inexpensive compared to where they were even one year ago, let
01:27:11 ◼ ► Apple did lower these by a large amount. And yeah, they are still way more expensive than
01:27:16 ◼ ► what you can buy for an Amazon or whatever. But the fact is like in this business, like
01:27:25 ◼ ► So the fact that they lowered the prices is great news, even though they are not the bargain
01:27:31 ◼ ► basement that we always want them to be. It just shows how out of whack they were. It's
01:27:36 ◼ ► not like they reduced them by 10% or something. Like cutting the price in half and still having
01:27:40 ◼ ► it be ridiculous. Ben Holmes tweeted like the prices have gone from absurd to ridiculous.
01:27:48 ◼ ► with that. Anyway, like so this another example is on the MacBook Air with a one terabyte
01:28:00 ◼ ► the, that's why I highlighted when I described that thing. Another one of the effects of
01:28:22 ◼ ► a $400 one terabyte, you know, SSD costs $400 like, oh, well I can buy a one terabyte. You're
01:28:28 ◼ ► not buying a one terabyte. You're buying half of a one terabyte because you threw away a
01:28:31 ◼ ► 512, right? So their prices are still completely out of whack. Like Ben Holmes cites a price
01:28:52 ◼ ► part, not accounting for the price that you should be gaining by removing the other one.
01:28:56 ◼ ► Yeah, they're like Porsche car options. They're just ridiculous and it makes sense that's
01:29:02 ◼ ► where they make their money. But if you price them too high, like no one will ever pick
01:29:07 ◼ ► that option. So honestly, Apple's probably not making as much profit as it could be to,
01:29:12 ◼ ► you know, just be reasonable. And the storage, it used to be like this in memory. Now Apple
01:29:17 ◼ ► is reasonable with memory. And in some respects, like maybe that's the better thing to do.
01:29:24 ◼ ► But in other respects, if Apple doesn't eventually get its iCloud act together, either in terms
01:29:35 ◼ ► of the things that hurts the user experience and the satisfaction with the computer the
01:29:41 ◼ ► most because it's the, it's the thing that users are least able to deal with. And rather
01:29:47 ◼ ► than motivating them to buy a new computer, it will just make them angry. Just be like,
01:30:05 ◼ ► over the hump of like having enough storage. I think we're probably there on phones. Like
01:30:18 ◼ ► stuff is enough to paper over the difference. Right. But Apple laptops specifically, especially
01:30:24 ◼ ► lightweight ones are not anywhere near getting over the hump of they have enough storage
01:30:29 ◼ ► for most people, especially if you have a photo library and especially if you use iCloud
01:30:33 ◼ ► photo library, even if you do the quote unquote optimized storage, which is terrible, you
01:30:37 ◼ ► can fill a default configuration, Apple laptop SST because the default configs are way too
01:30:48 ◼ ► one terabyte and they think it's not worth and they need some nerdy computer friend like
01:31:02 ◼ ► to chuck it in the ocean because it's full. Right. And there's nothing you can do about
01:31:06 ◼ ► it. Yeah, I've been there. Like I, there were, there were, there's a couple of laptops I've
01:31:11 ◼ ► owned where I just was impulsive. I just wanted to go to the Apple store and just buy one
01:31:30 ◼ ► slammed into that all the time. So now these days, no matter how impatient I want to be,
01:31:37 ◼ ► five 12 is the minimum I will buy. And what I actually aim for for a laptop is one terabyte.
01:31:42 ◼ ► Yeah. I feel like that's the thing that makes me like a computer the most is having it not
01:31:47 ◼ ► get full. Like the five K I Mac already, like I filled the one terabyte SSD. I bought a
01:31:56 ◼ ► I filled it and I had to, I had to move my entire photo library to an external SSD, which
01:32:00 ◼ ► isn't the end of the world, but it kind of annoys me. And one of the things I'm looking
01:32:13 ◼ ► actually put quote unquote external drives inside the thing through various mechanisms,
01:32:18 ◼ ► but I would prefer it if the super fast internal storage was big enough to, you know, hold
01:32:25 ◼ ► all my stuff for five years without me hitting limits. So if I were to get four terabytes,
01:32:30 ◼ ► I think that would be fine because it'd be four times what I, you know, just barely able
01:32:39 ◼ ► where Apple gets most of its money because, and especially on the laptops and most people
01:32:49 ◼ ► the options of external drive and stuff because you just want to carry the laptop. And, you
01:32:54 ◼ ► know, we'll, if we ever talk about Catalina, we'll get into this some more, but the Mac
01:33:00 ◼ ► operating systems handling of a disc storage or whatever we want to call it these days.
01:33:08 ◼ ► I mean, in some respects it has new features, but in other respects, it's actually getting
01:33:17 ◼ ► much space do I have? How do I free up new space? How do I deal with the disc full? How
01:33:22 ◼ ► does the operating system deal with the disc full? How do the applications that claim to
01:33:26 ◼ ► deal with the full disc actually deal with it? It's one of the biggest pain points I've
01:33:30 ◼ ► seen with Macs. Less so with phones and iPads, although there was still that ad campaign
01:33:35 ◼ ► from Samsung or whatever, or Google or whoever it was, making fun of Apple's phones filling
01:33:40 ◼ ► up with photos. But I feel like with the advent of what is the default config on the good
01:33:51 ◼ ► just completely stopped complaining about how the entry level storage was so bad before.
01:34:02 ◼ ► a very long time. And once they went up, they first went to 32, and I think some models
01:34:25 ◼ ► Like Apple does need to keep up with this. It's not like 64 is enough forever. Like you
01:34:32 ◼ ► pace with the increasing size and decreasing cost of storage. And they fell way behind,
01:34:38 ◼ ► embarrassingly behind even for Apple to the point where they're cutting their prices in
01:34:41 ◼ ► half and now they're slightly less embarrassingly. I don't know. Like it still annoys me, but
01:34:49 ◼ ► like, who is honestly, who besides businesses, what individual person was paying an additional
01:34:55 ◼ ► $2,800 for the biggest SSD? It's only businesses. Because no individual person could probably
01:35:01 ◼ ► justify that, even if they were like a freelance person or whatever and they thought they would
01:35:04 ◼ ► use this, they were like, honestly, I'll just buy an external drive because you really need
01:35:17 ◼ ► of those yesterday and saw the price cut, that's not going to feel good. I bet you could
01:35:34 ◼ ► for a long time and I opted to do it because ultimately like I was juggling a lot of weird
01:35:40 ◼ ► externals with my previous iMac because when I ordered my previous iMac, the biggest it
01:35:46 ◼ ► got was one terabyte. That was the biggest option it had. And at the time I bought that.
01:35:50 ◼ ► And that was expensive, not that expensive, but that was expensive at the time, like in
01:36:30 ◼ ► This is the MacBook Pro we're talking about though. The iMac was exactly the same price?
01:36:35 ◼ ► $2800. That's why when you were saying earlier, no one knew what it was. I knew what it was.
01:36:44 ◼ ► true, yeah. But anyway, and I will, before we leave this topic, which you really should
01:36:52 ◼ ► extremely happy with. One of the biggest problems when you have limited storage, like almost
01:37:18 ◼ ► like your laptop or something, where you only have Apple Photos keep the small versions
01:37:41 ◼ ► mess. So what I did when I set up my most recent laptop last summer was I put the photos
01:38:03 ◼ ► login. That's where my Apple Photos library is and it obeys the disk quota of the sparse
01:38:21 ◼ ► with it intruding on the rest of my drive. So that is by far the biggest quality of life
01:38:28 ◼ ► improvement that I've discovered for having a modern Apple laptop with limited SSD space.
01:38:59 ◼ ► optimized storage would do is it would download lower quality, not thumbnails, but just lower
01:39:07 ◼ ► quality versions of photos to save space. The problem that you could run into with that
01:39:13 ◼ ► strategy is eventually if your phone fills with the lower quality ones, there is no other
01:39:20 ◼ ► strategy. It wasn't as if it would purge the photos entirely and download them on demand.
01:39:30 ◼ ► one. So if you have a very large library and you put it in a very small sparse disk image,
01:39:38 ◼ ► your disk image and then you'd have to make a second disk image or expand it or copy your
01:39:41 ◼ ► stuff over or whatever, which is not the end of the world. But all this is to say I still
01:39:45 ◼ ► don't have much faith in the photo library's ability to actually manage the space available
01:39:53 ◼ ► to it. I feel like it's using very naive strategies and never goes sort of full on demand where
01:39:58 ◼ ► it's like I'll pull in images as needed and I will purge them as needed. It's more like
01:40:06 ◼ ► if you run out of space, keep smaller versions of some things. And that strategy runs out
01:40:15 ◼ ► and I will pull in the most recently used images in that buffer and purge them as needed.
01:40:19 ◼ ► And the second thing of course with the purgeable space, I think there's actually a way to make
01:40:22 ◼ ► it purge but the other thing that always gets people is local time machine backups. So I
01:40:27 ◼ ► mean this is a nerdy thing to do but if you are a nerdy person listening to this and you
01:40:30 ◼ ► frequently have space issues or you need to free up some space that you think should be
01:40:37 ◼ ► running a modern version of Mac OS, man TMUTIL, TMUTIL and look at the local snapshot stuff.
01:40:44 ◼ ► You can list your local time machine snapshots and you can delete your local time machine
01:40:50 ◼ ► snapshots and that will save a surprising amount of space depending on what you've updated
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01:42:58 ◼ ► was in college and even through my first few tech jobs, whimsical names for computers were
01:43:02 ◼ ► ubiquitous. At my university they were named after 50s TV characters. But of late it seemed
01:43:07 ◼ ► standard for computers to have names as interesting as a barcode. I'm curious what everyone thinks
01:43:10 ◼ ► of giving more memorable names to their machines." I used to do this. I don't even remember the
01:43:15 ◼ ► like schemes that I used to use. But I cannot remember the last time I have changed the
01:43:22 ◼ ► name of a computer other than to maybe take my name out of it. So instead of like Casey's
01:43:30 ◼ ► much. So I haven't done this in forever and a day and I rarely pay attention to this sort
01:43:42 ◼ ► I can just do one question. So I've been thinking about this. I'm not going to say I've always
01:43:51 ◼ ► named my computers because before the internet and before ubiquitous networking there was
01:44:14 ◼ ► me at least I never named my computer in the same way that like you'd name your car, right?
01:44:20 ◼ ► Like there's no reason for your car to have a name. Other people don't have like Apple's
01:44:25 ◼ ► glasses on and they look at your car and they see your car's name. Like there's no sort
01:44:28 ◼ ► of computerized reason for it to have a name. If you give your car a name it's just because
01:44:33 ◼ ► So what I would do with all of my Macs though is I would name the hard drives. The hard
01:44:44 ◼ ► Apple hard drives would come and it's called Macintosh HD. I think still to this day it
01:44:53 ◼ ► not really hard drives anymore. I would rename the hard drive and that was basically like
01:45:05 ◼ ► was naming the hard drive because if I had a second hard drive it would have a different
01:45:08 ◼ ► name. So I've always done that. Usually it's like cartoon characters and I would have a
01:45:17 ◼ ► modern era when your computers are networked, even if it was just Apple Talk and now a day
01:45:22 ◼ ► is like the rendezvous or whatever the hell it's called, zero conf networking and everything.
01:45:34 ◼ ► is whatever icon and name their boot hard drive gets. So again, it's video game characters
01:45:40 ◼ ► and all various other things. So yeah, the only thing I've done recently is as I've gotten
01:45:45 ◼ ► lots of computers, I got tired of coming up with new names. So I basically give my computer
01:45:49 ◼ ► the same name all the time. I don't give a Roman numerals. It doesn't become the second
01:45:56 ◼ ► Yeah, it's like Air Force One. It's like whatever is your current computer has that name.
01:45:59 ◼ ► Yeah, more or less. And I do the same thing with my work computer across many different
01:46:06 ◼ ► so I don't have to keep thinking of new names. And then the only other interesting story
01:46:11 ◼ ► about this is like the naming of the computer and not the hard drive or whatever began far
01:46:19 ◼ ► before I ever got into it in the world of servers that needed to have names, the internet,
01:46:24 ◼ ► DNS, all that other stuff, right? And at universities where you'd have labs full of computers that
01:46:34 ◼ ► were on the internet via TCP/IP and had host names, right? And so there was a challenge.
01:46:49 ◼ ► these things, lab3.myschool.edu or whatever. That's very boring. And I'm sure I've told
01:47:04 ◼ ► at Boston University. Whatever system came up with this one, I thought it was very clever
01:47:16 ◼ ► giving it away by the way I pronounced them, like a pendant. Um, lots of things that you'd
01:47:24 ◼ ► like a thing that dangles around your neck? Scrutable? Do they mean inscrutable? Uh, or
01:47:33 ◼ ► lab full of machines like this. Uh, and they were all, uh, Silicon graphics, indie machines.
01:47:40 ◼ ► So it was all words that began with indie, independent, indescribable. Uh, yeah, I don't
01:47:47 ◼ ► remember all the names, but you would think you couldn't come up with all the words that
01:48:02 ◼ ► and yes, Silicon graphics. They w that was a modern thing when I was at school when they
01:48:06 ◼ ► did that, a Jurassic park thing where like she says, this is the unique system. I noticed
01:48:10 ◼ ► they have that weird thing where you're flying through all the buttons. That was a real thing
01:48:13 ◼ ► on SGI machines. And uh, when I saw the movie, I'm like, I do know that that's a real thing.
01:48:23 ◼ ► I don't, I don't think it would, they expected people to use it, but yeah, it came with SGIs.
01:48:26 ◼ ► It was like a way to navigate the file system through a bunch of weird rotating sort of
01:48:40 ◼ ► it would come with that. Uh, Marco, any thoughts? Um, not really. I have a similar air force
01:48:51 ◼ ► whenever I get a new one, it just inherits the old name. Uh, w with one notable exception
01:48:56 ◼ ► to our relevant to our conversation earlier. Uh, when I, when I got the MacBook escape,
01:49:00 ◼ ► I named it escape. And then when I later got the 15 inch touch bar to replace it, well,
01:49:09 ◼ ► I lost my escape key. So I called it no escape, which is kind of a play on, you know, not
01:49:26 ◼ ► my laptop is still to this day, even though it's now two laptops later called no escape.
01:49:43 ◼ ► and Catalina for new installs given license issues with bash. Why not fish since the guy
01:49:48 ◼ ► works at apple and GP, GPL version two seems uncontroversial. So I'm not a hundred percent
01:49:53 ◼ ► sure that's correct about, um, the, the creator of fish working, working at apple, but I think
01:50:12 ◼ ► we ever get to, we probably will some point when we have to do like three episodes a week
01:50:16 ◼ ► to deal with vacations in the summer. Anyway. Um, yeah, this is one, a minor point in it
01:50:25 ◼ ► it later, but for now, for the shell stuff, what I heard is that it was a license issue.
01:50:36 ◼ ► because you can, if you're lucky, apple will tell you what they're doing, but they rarely
01:50:47 ◼ ► doesn't affect me. I use TCSH for legacy reasons because it's what the Unix system at my university
01:50:55 ◼ ► used and that's just what I got used to. I do not recommend it. Um, uh, fish. Uh, I believe
01:51:03 ◼ ► the person who writes fish does or did work at apple and he wrote fish. I'm not sure if
01:51:07 ◼ ► he still does work at apple. Uh, apple should not change their default shell to fish because
01:51:13 ◼ ► fish is a weird shell. Um, if like apple is not in a position to make something, the de
01:51:22 ◼ ► facto shell for Unix computers, like by shipping it, that it's not like the evermore follow
01:51:27 ◼ ► them. If the whole rest of like the Linux world essentially switched to fish, then yes,
01:51:36 ◼ ► they shouldn't because then apples units will get the reputation of like, Oh, Apple's got
01:51:40 ◼ ► Unix, but it's got this weird shell. That's like only Unix nerds. No, you can change your
01:51:44 ◼ ► shell, right? But it won't matter. It'll just be like apple, uh, max have Unix, but the,
01:51:49 ◼ ► but the shell is weird, right? By going with bash because it's what everybody else uses.
01:52:06 ◼ ► So if you have to change from bash to something, ZSH is a reasonable alternative. I don't care
01:52:11 ◼ ► cause I don't use either one of the shells. Fair enough. Marco, do you have any thoughts
01:52:14 ◼ ► on this? I do care quite a bit because I use bash heavily in, in my Mac usage. I have shell
01:52:26 ◼ ► care, but I don't know, I don't yet know enough about ZSH to know like how much of my stuff
01:52:32 ◼ ► is this going to break or require relearning. You don't have to use it. You can just use
01:52:37 ◼ ► bash. Like you can either build your own bash and install it. And I think they'll still
01:52:40 ◼ ► ship bash. They're just changing the default shell. It's a pain in the butt though. Yeah,
01:52:44 ◼ ► well, I mean, Hey, like I have, I have used the non default shell for basically the entire
01:52:49 ◼ ► life of Mac OS 10. Uh, it preserves it across install. So it's not like a thing you need
01:52:58 ◼ ► assistant or whatever, install type CHSH and you'll be off to the races. It's just fine.
01:53:02 ◼ ► Oh, all right. For what it's worth, I've used fish for years and I do not use very many
01:53:11 ◼ ► navigating around and doing basic operations. And I love it. Uh, I don't argue that it is
01:53:16 ◼ ► very weird though. Finally, Tyler Menard writes, how do you use and take care of your big camera
01:53:32 ◼ ► the beach in when I'm not actively using it. Uh, I also don't go like deep into the surf
01:53:46 ◼ ► grain of sand on that entire beach can hurt it, but just doing my best to, you know, put
01:53:50 ◼ ► it inside a towel or put it in a backpack, like I said, and just keeping it as far away
01:53:54 ◼ ► from sand as I possibly can. Marco, you occasionally live outside of the beach, but generally live
01:54:02 ◼ ► Marco: I don't. I don't bring my big camera to the beach almost ever. And, uh, so I kind
01:54:16 ◼ ► to the beach and haven't lost one yet, which means that I'm well overdue to drop my camera
01:54:21 ◼ ► in the ocean this summer. I know it's going to happen eventually. Um, my, my plan is basically
01:54:31 ◼ ► because children kick sand everywhere. Like you can't, you have to just keep a perimeter,
01:54:42 ◼ ► a fact of life. It gets sand and salt spray on it. I clean it between trips, try to get
01:54:48 ◼ ► the sand and salt spray off. The bottom line is some tiny minuscule speck of saltwater is
01:54:54 ◼ ► going to get inside your camera and it's going to slowly corrode some electrode and then,
01:54:58 ◼ ► uh, or some solder joint or something or the contacts on the SD card or like there's no
01:55:08 ◼ ► even if you get a quote unquote weatherproof one, unless it's in one of those things that
01:55:11 ◼ ► you use to take your camera, you know, deep sea diving in the beach versus camera beach
01:55:16 ◼ ► winds. So just be resigned to the fact that by taking your big fancy camera to the beach
01:55:26 ◼ ► can be okay with that and get good pictures in the meantime, fine. But there is no real
01:55:30 ◼ ► strategy other than be careful and take as much care that you have that will stop eventually
01:55:36 ◼ ► the saltwater from winning. The ocean always wins. I would even go as far as to say like
01:55:40 ◼ ► that, that applies to pretty much everything that you bring near the ocean. It's a, it's
01:55:50 ◼ ► and gritty sand and like all the, like everything about going near the ocean is amazing for
01:55:58 ◼ ► your mind and terrible for anything physical. So it's just, you know, anything that that
01:56:10 ◼ ► of the deal. Anyway, thanks to our sponsors this week, Linode fracture and boosted boards,
01:56:30 ◼ ► accidental. John didn't do any research. Marco and Casey wouldn't let him because it was
01:56:37 ◼ ► accidental. It was accidental. And you can find the show notes at ATP.FM. And if you're
01:57:14 ◼ ► to accidental. Tech Bar cast so long. You know how many tabs I have open in Safari right
01:57:30 ◼ ► Close them when I'm done and I haven't been doing any major web. Here's the thing. This
01:57:34 ◼ ► computer is getting far less use as it gets old. Right. I use it for podcast now and during
01:57:39 ◼ ► the day if I need to do something like Peter, I use the iMac. So everything here has been
01:57:43 ◼ ► closed except for like the tabs that I always leave open, you know, like Gmail and stats
01:57:52 ◼ ► that you see and at the bottom it says like millions. Just three. One window, three tabs.
01:58:02 ◼ ► Chrome is one window, one, two, three, four tabs, five tabs. Times are changing. I know.
01:58:13 ◼ ► to my work computer, very not true. It's just because I'm not using this way. I would use
01:58:22 ◼ ► new tabs is like, you know, shopping research. What are they trying to do? My dog's even
01:58:26 ◼ ► eating the coasters. So we're trying to find new coasters. That's a lot of tabs. I need
01:58:32 ◼ ► to find like a dog proof coaster. It has to be acceptable to me but also not attractive
01:58:43 ◼ ► to reach coasters. I know. It's tricky. Like, you know, you just get once like a lot of
01:58:49 ◼ ► ones that are not attractive for the dog or unacceptable to me. Like you get stone coasters
01:58:52 ◼ ► but I don't like that. I don't like the feeling of putting a glass on stone. The ones that
01:58:59 ◼ ► we got when we were married that had lasted until the kids and our pets destroyed them.
01:59:24 ◼ ► the thing. So it has to be slightly cup. You know, there has to be an indentation and in