00:00:00 ◼ ► Hi everybody. We are live. Live from the show floor here at the Microsoft event where we
00:00:07 ◼ ► are covering all of the Windows 10 X 10 live surface events and all the new Surface X hardware
00:00:15 ◼ ► with all the dual touch screens and the folding dual X 10 screens. It's going to be a whole
00:00:51 ◼ ► most, for the most part, you don't really see anybody using those big desktops and everything
00:00:56 ◼ ► but what you do see are a lot of people out there using the Surface tablets and laptops.
00:01:02 ◼ ► Those actually seem to have somewhat significant market success, not by anywhere near what
00:01:24 ◼ ► make successful hardware. If you're grading on a curve of like, not like Apple level success
00:01:32 ◼ ► but they do make successful hardware in the sense that it sells reasonably well for what
00:01:44 ◼ ► part and not have too many horrible problems. And so I give them ultimate respect for that.
00:01:53 ◼ ► When they first started making weird Surface hardware, like back when Surface meant the
00:01:56 ◼ ► giant table, and even the first one or two Surface tablet things, they were really weird
00:02:02 ◼ ► and not very good and nobody bought them really. But they've been pushing. They've been advancing
00:02:13 ◼ ► gotta give them credit. The only problem is that we don't care about PC hardware and we
00:02:23 ◼ ► that's running out. We don't care about any of that on this show. None of us are in those
00:02:27 ◼ ► worlds really. Not anymore! The world of tech is a really big place and I don't think it's
00:02:46 ◼ ► a lot of anything for us to cover here. The one thing I do like about it is how much they
00:02:53 ◼ ► stick their finger in Apple's eye about laptops. I do really enjoy that because Apple could
00:02:58 ◼ ► use a good finger in the eye sometimes. Apple does not make good products when they think
00:03:02 ◼ ► they're on top and they start coasting. So it is nice to see Microsoft poke fun at things
00:03:08 ◼ ► like all the digs they made about the keyboard and everything. They do okay. I'm proud of
00:03:20 ◼ ► - It's funny to me that you apparently either haven't looked at the show notes or don't
00:03:32 ◼ ► - We're gonna talk about a thing, we'll talk about it during the show. How is that so hard?
00:03:37 ◼ ► If we learned anything, it's that neither one of you can say I don't want to talk about
00:03:43 ◼ ► this and then proceed to not talk about this. If you ever begin any sentence with we're
00:03:47 ◼ ► not gonna talk about this, everyone but apparently you two knows that you're gonna talk about
00:03:52 ◼ ► it. You're gonna. Otherwise you wouldn't have said anything. I want you to say I'm not gonna
00:04:06 ◼ ► - In my defense, I did read the show notes document but I stopped at about three topics
00:04:18 ◼ ► - Alright, apparently we should start with some follow up. I don't know if this is even
00:04:23 ◼ ► really follow up but I'm gonna call it follow up. I wanted to give everyone a few updates
00:04:33 ◼ ► First of all, my iMac half died and now it's back to life. It did not go back to the Apple
00:04:45 ◼ ► very similar problems to what I was having earlier like where it wouldn't survive overnight
00:04:58 ◼ ► before you go to the Apple Store and tell them to fix this again, why don't you eliminate
00:05:04 ◼ ► the one thing you couldn't really eliminate last time which is the software installation?"
00:05:16 ◼ ► to work. I couldn't even repair it, much less format it, etc. So that's why I threw my hands
00:05:32 ◼ ► first things I did when I had restored from Time Machine Backup was I took all the detritus
00:05:43 ◼ ► the Synology so God forbid something happened, I would be prepared and that mostly worked.
00:05:48 ◼ ► And so then I did an Internet recovery which put High Sierra on the iMac which was a little
00:06:12 ◼ ► and this was a couple of days ago and so far, it seems like everything is better, question
00:06:39 ◼ ► also, while I'm thinking of it, got some feedback from someone who is a former genius who kind
00:06:44 ◼ ► of threw some theories at me as to why I wasn't charged for the repair and there are many,
00:06:52 ◼ ► many different options but it sounds like it is possible that there were no favors called
00:07:00 ◼ ► called in favors and just because Apple wasn't exactly sure what did or did not fix the problem,
00:07:07 ◼ ► they might have just said, "Ah, the heck with it. We'll just let this guy walk away for
00:07:11 ◼ ► free." So I wanted to, now that the iMac update is done, I wanted to also update on my watch.
00:07:19 ◼ ► My battery life has gotten considerably better as of, what are we on? What day is today?
00:07:25 ◼ ► What are we on? 13-1-2 on the phone and 6-0-1 on the watch, is that right? I think that's
00:07:31 ◼ ► right, something like that. It doesn't matter. Anyway, the latest updates as of Wednesday,
00:07:36 ◼ ► October 2nd, have gotten me to the point that I can make it all day without charging again.
00:07:41 ◼ ► My watch was brought off the charger 14 hours ago. I did a half an hour of exercise and
00:07:56 ◼ ► with that. I did, with both my watch and Aaron's watch for different reasons, I did not restore
00:08:03 ◼ ► them. I set them up as new. That did fix Aaron's problems with not having photos on her watch.
00:08:10 ◼ ► It's one of the 13 different things I threw against the wall to fix my battery problems,
00:08:13 ◼ ► although I think ultimately it was the new versions of the OS. And so my computing world
00:08:25 ◼ ► me insane. And Aaron is so, so annoyed because she's a regular person and to her she just
00:08:38 ◼ ► the way it should. And like mail particularly is such a dumpster fire in iOS 13. And it's
00:08:56 ◼ ► big business works and how QA works in a big business. But I just, I don't get how, like,
00:09:14 ◼ ► it seemed to only slightly get better towards the very, very end. Like, I think ultimately,
00:09:25 ◼ ► know, they didn't, you know, they, last year was the stability year and this year was the
00:09:28 ◼ ► features year. And they had two years worth of features then to catch up on. And we can
00:09:36 ◼ ► that would, you know, be a big problem for the company. So they had to ship it when they
00:09:43 ◼ ► But the fact is, all of these things either happen every year and so they've been doing
00:09:59 ◼ ► is predictable under their control. And, you know, when it comes to things like, oh, well,
00:10:04 ◼ ► you know, last year was super stable and lower our standards or raise our standards or whatever,
00:10:07 ◼ ► like, that's not good enough. Like, that's not a good enough excuse for a company that's
00:10:12 ◼ ► running like, you know, 10-year-old operating systems or more on the Mac side, you know,
00:10:24 ◼ ► So we have a problem there too. All the iCloud stuff that goes along with it. Like, watchOS
00:10:36 ◼ ► less of a mess but still in some ways messy. Like, honestly, I think it's just bad management
00:10:41 ◼ ► in the software quality side. Like, somehow, I don't know, I'm not gonna, like, blame a
00:10:46 ◼ ► certain executive 'cause I don't know, you know, I don't know how things went. But this
00:10:51 ◼ ► is not, this beta cycle proves that something went seriously wrong here in the management
00:10:58 ◼ ► and direction and shipping and releasing of the software platforms on this schedule. They
00:11:08 ◼ ► badly and that lies right at the feet of management because they should have been able to see
00:11:14 ◼ ► all of this coming months ago and they chose to do what they did anyway. So, rather than,
00:11:20 ◼ ► you know, cut certain features, they decided to plow ahead. Rather than, you know, delay
00:11:24 ◼ ► certain things or whatever, they plowed ahead. Like, and certain things are still delayed
00:11:35 ◼ ► come up with any other conclusion other than, like, the software quality is being poorly
00:11:48 ◼ ► - Yeah, agreed. And, you know, I wanna talk to John about this a little bit 'cause I think
00:11:52 ◼ ► he will have a more even opinion about all this. But looking at myself and particularly
00:12:00 ◼ ► Erin, so I'm picking on Erin in a sense because she's a regular person who doesn't understand
00:12:04 ◼ ► what it's like to write software. I can both be more annoyed and also more forgiving because
00:12:23 ◼ ► each bought a brand new iPhone, we each bought a brand new Apple Watch. So we're each, like,
00:12:42 ◼ ► through the day. How is that possible that this is what they release? And what an absolute
00:12:47 ◼ ► buzzkill it is to get this new toy that you've saved your money for and then it's just a
00:12:52 ◼ ► piece of garbage that can't get through the day. Like, it can't even get through 12 hours,
00:13:01 ◼ ► to me a few times over the last week, I think mostly to get rise out of me, but somewhat
00:13:05 ◼ ► seriously, like, why am I continuing to buy Apple stuff if it's this broken? Like, why?
00:13:10 ◼ ► It never used to be this way. Why would I continue to do this? And, you know the answer
00:13:14 ◼ ► I've had for her? Yep, that's it. That's what I got. Like, I don't have a good answer. I
00:13:22 ◼ ► mean, at one point, like, if you want to get an Android phone next, like, I don't think
00:13:27 ◼ ► that's really gonna be a lot better, Erin, but I'm not the boss of you. Like, if that's
00:13:31 ◼ ► what you want, go for it. Like, and it's just, this is very frustrating. So, Jon, let's put
00:13:38 ◼ ► on a happy face, hopefully, or at least maybe you could explain to me, like, how does a
00:14:01 ◼ ► can change in your behavior that will help with this issue, you know, setting aside what
00:14:05 ◼ ► we can and can't do to change how Apple works. Buying an Android phone, yes, is one choice.
00:14:15 ◼ ► I don't know what's worse. If you waited six months, probably the stability of the software
00:14:20 ◼ ► will be a lot better. I think it's safe to say that. Now, who wants to wait six months?
00:14:25 ◼ ► No one wants to wait six months. People can't even wait a week or a month. But that is a
00:14:29 ◼ ► way you might be able to change how you purchase things or in exchange how she purchases things
00:14:35 ◼ ► to avoid issues like this. Because as far as I'm aware, there hasn't been an iOS release
00:14:41 ◼ ► where six months in it was still a buggy piece of crap. There have been releases where within
00:14:47 ◼ ► the first week or two, there's lots of things that are buggy. This may be the worst it's
00:14:57 ◼ ► you know, 13.2 fixes it all, we're all gonna forget about this or whatever. Maybe we'll
00:15:02 ◼ ► remember it because it's lucky number 13. But yeah, that is, as someone who is relatively
00:15:09 ◼ ► technically savvy, you and Aaron will have the choice to understand that that's a thing.
00:15:15 ◼ ► Now, that said, most people don't know that's a thing or should have to know. Like, that's
00:15:19 ◼ ► not on anyone's radar. If you're not listening to technology podcasts, you have no idea that
00:15:29 ◼ ► zero software is bad and it gets better and so on and so forth. Like, most people don't
00:15:33 ◼ ► even know the new iPhones are out until they wander into an Apple store a month and a half
00:15:40 ◼ ► just come out? Or has that been out for a month or a year anyway? So that's my suggestion
00:15:47 ◼ ► to consider alongside getting an Android phone. And the question of like, you know, why do
00:15:55 ◼ ► or may not be before this in the release version of the podcast. The alternatives are usually
00:16:03 ◼ ► worse or not maybe not worse, are less to our liking. Right? So, you know, you got complaints
00:16:10 ◼ ► about the Mac when I get a Windows computer. All right, well, how do you feel about Windows?
00:16:19 ◼ ► are trying to as consumers are trying to make the best choice available to us is the best
00:16:23 ◼ ► choice. Good enough? Perhaps not like I said, is best choice, perfect. Best choice might
00:16:44 ◼ ► last minute, pulling stuff at the last minute, while it may be the right move is also risky.
00:16:49 ◼ ► Because if you pull stuff at the last minute, then what you're releasing is not the thing
00:16:52 ◼ ► that you had been working on and testing for the past, you know, x months, right? Maybe
00:17:02 ◼ ► issues involving who knows what I mean, all sorts of, you know, Apple, Apple has its priorities,
00:17:09 ◼ ► whatever its priorities may be, whether it's because of, you know, tariffs or manufacturing
00:17:19 ◼ ► to deal with the consequences. And it seems like the consequences of their decision are,
00:17:44 ◼ ► alright, maybe people don't mind too much, especially with like a new update coming out
00:17:48 ◼ ► every three days, maybe this window of instability will pass us by. So I'm not sure, you know,
00:17:56 ◼ ► like, obviously, we're all cranky about it, because we know the intimate details of this
00:18:00 ◼ ► stuff. But I'm wondering if people who aren't listening to this podcast and who aren't into
00:18:06 ◼ ► technology who just happened to get a new phone feel the same way about obviously Aaron
00:18:11 ◼ ► does, but she I feel like is definitely technology adjacent. Yeah, no, I mean, it's, it's a bummer.
00:18:26 ◼ ► In some respects, Apple surely knows where many of the bugs are, you know, mostly because
00:18:39 ◼ ► what's released. And there's this, you know, whatever release pipeline that puts out actual
00:18:44 ◼ ► releases. By the time we see the release, Apple has moved on to the one where the thing
00:18:51 ◼ ► to get an idea of what the consumer experience would be like. But for apps like mail, or
00:19:02 ◼ ► to assume that reason not to assume reasonable to imagine that there are things that customers
00:19:17 ◼ ► especially when it's an application that deals with data, because all of Apple's mail and
00:19:26 ◼ ► of over the shoulder metrics to know what everyone's experience is like, and the channels
00:19:31 ◼ ► for feedback are limited, and it's like, "How could they have shipped this? My mail is all
00:19:42 ◼ ► their fault, but this is, again, a thing regular consumers shouldn't need to know. But software
00:19:47 ◼ ► developers, especially people who do software that has a server or data component know,
00:19:52 ◼ ► it's impossible to know exactly how your software is going to behave when it's in the hands
00:19:55 ◼ ► of your consumers. And very often it's difficult to know how it is behaving. That's why people
00:20:00 ◼ ► put all that telemetry into their applications and have all this spyware installed, because
00:20:13 ◼ ► hat side of it is, if you really want to know how things are going for your consumers, you
00:20:21 ◼ ► leave immediately? Did they go to the screen and their stuff didn't display? How long are
00:20:29 ◼ ► much telemetry in their apps for obvious privacy reasons. But I'm willing to believe that Apple's
00:20:37 ◼ ► for us, right? Yeah, I haven't heard anything about it in the public beta. Maybe one or
00:21:01 ◼ ► looking at a message on my phone. So I'm looking at a message, I go to trash it or delete it,
00:21:07 ◼ ► or excuse me, trash it or archive it. And at that point, in every other version of mail
00:21:11 ◼ ► ever, it would pop to the prior view controller, which is the list of messages. And a lot of
00:21:16 ◼ ► times what will happen is the message in question will disappear, or the other screen will almost
00:21:22 ◼ ► entirely become blank, but I'm still looking at the message detail view controller. I'm
00:21:32 ◼ ► whine about. I totally hear myself saying this, and I'm thinking to myself, "Wow, you're
00:21:36 ◼ ► a big baby." But when you do this many, many times in a row, it's infuriating. And to me,
00:21:47 ◼ ► I'm sure it's happening to other people. How do you not catch this? How is this not a thing?
00:21:57 ◼ ► obvious? And I know there's probably a million and six reasons how it could have slipped
00:22:03 ◼ ► Well, so the first one, I think we have a good answer for what you're looking for before,
00:22:07 ◼ ► some sort of explanation for big corporations. That strikes me as the kind of bug that they
00:22:27 ◼ ► shipping it. That's what it comes down to. It's crappy. It's a bug, you know, as we all
00:22:33 ◼ ► know, everybody who works in a big corporation shipping software, ships software with known
00:22:37 ◼ ► bugs all the time. I do. Right. It's just a fact of life now. No, you're right. You know,
00:22:49 ◼ ► bugs that erased all your mail, right? It's a bad bug in that if it's consistent, it seems
00:22:55 ◼ ► like that's definitely a thing that they know about. They don't feel good about shipping
00:22:58 ◼ ► software with bugs, I'm sure, but that's the decision they made. You can make the decision
00:23:12 ◼ ► manufacturing and tariffs on the other side, you know, non-data loss, non-crasher bugs.
00:23:21 ◼ ► list of known bugs, many of which will never be fixed, because they're not crash or data
00:23:43 ◼ ► unless watchOS inside Apple is so incredibly far ahead, I wonder how Apple could have the
00:23:50 ◼ ► confidence to know that this product will eventually last all day like we said it would.
00:23:57 ◼ ► Unless they had seen it last all day internally, because they're using some version of watch
00:24:02 ◼ ► OS that's way ahead of what they ship, shipping it seems like a huge risk. Like shipping it
00:24:12 ◼ ► a couple weeks. That's a hell of a risk. And I'm thinking they wouldn't take that risk.
00:24:16 ◼ ► I think they know what was killing the battery, but just didn't have time to fix it. And,
00:24:33 ◼ ► the watch had terrible battery and some software updates went. It also could just be like day
00:24:45 ◼ ► the first day or two that you used your computer. It's the thing that Apple knew about and that
00:24:49 ◼ ► sucked, but Apple could have some confidence to say, you know, it'll settle down in a week
00:24:59 ◼ ► they shipped a thing that they knew either was bad because of bad, you know, bad software
00:25:04 ◼ ► or unoptimized things somewhere or was like there's some initially setting up your watch
00:25:10 ◼ ► with a new phone kind of grinding that's going to kill your battery on the first day or two,
00:25:18 ◼ ► but that is the one that I would love to know the inside story on because I would think
00:26:03 ◼ ► my new treat and I want to use it and I can't use it for more than four hours at a time
00:26:09 ◼ ► because then it dies. And I don't know, like we would rake them over the coals probably
00:26:19 ◼ ► they said we need another week on this watch that you've already preordered and we told
00:26:22 ◼ ► you would arrive on Friday or we wouldn't. I don't think we would. I think we'd say good,
00:26:27 ◼ ► fine. Ship it to me when it's stable. I think that's, you know, tech nerds is what we've
00:26:30 ◼ ► always said. I don't know. I'd like to think that, but I don't know if that's what I would
00:26:33 ◼ ► be saying. I don't know. But yeah, it's just, it just, I keep coming back to, it was just
00:26:39 ◼ ► such a crummy several days. And again, like ultimately it's a computer on my wrist that
00:26:46 ◼ ► I can make a phone call to China with if I so desired. Like I really probably just need
00:26:52 ◼ ► to, what is that? Who was the troubled comedian that was, you know, we're in a tube in space
00:26:57 ◼ ► in the sky browsing the internet. Thank you. What was it like? It's amazing. You know what
00:27:09 ◼ ► I know I'm having that moment right now and I, and I am a little bit sorry for that, but
00:27:13 ◼ ► the reason that I love maybe loved Apple so darn much is that these things wouldn't happen.
00:27:22 ◼ ► These are the sorts of things that would happen to Microsoft stuff years ago. I'm not saying
00:27:36 ◼ ► or mostly right at least in the first, right out of the box, right out of the gate. And
00:27:48 ◼ ► Those days never existed. Those are just rose colored glasses. I mean, I think like 10,
00:27:52 ◼ ► five leopard was so much worse than iOS 13. Now it mattered less to be fair. It mattered
00:28:10 ◼ ► you remembers an iOS that's worse than this, probably the worst initial iOS release. But
00:28:14 ◼ ► I think it may also be the fastest fix. Certainly the number of updates and how close they are
00:28:27 ◼ ► Well, because A, first of all, it's not fixed yet. B, it's basically on fire. They're having
00:28:34 ◼ ► significant issues that are even to the point of impacting, like almost every review of
00:28:41 ◼ ► the new iPhone has mentioned the buggy software. Many reviews of the new Apple Watch have mentioned
00:28:48 ◼ ► the poor battery life. Like, it's, you know, Apple is clearly, you know, prioritizing hardware
00:29:00 ◼ ► hardware funded company. So it makes sense why they would prioritize hardware, but they
00:29:06 ◼ ► basically, you know, really forced their customers to have really buggy software this time in
00:29:11 ◼ ► order to get that hardware schedule, you know, to be kept. And it's hurting now. It's hurting
00:29:16 ◼ ► the press reviews and it's hurting the public opinion of their new hardware. And I hope
00:29:34 ◼ ► is to de-prioritize software quality to make a hardware release schedule like this. Like,
00:29:45 ◼ ► people there. I'm sure they considered this to be expensive, but they should really feel
00:29:49 ◼ ► how expensive this was to maybe make better decisions in the future. Like, for instance,
00:29:59 ◼ ► think as long as two things continue to be the case, this is still going to be a problem.
00:30:04 ◼ ► Thing number one is that they keep releasing new hardware on the same schedule every year
00:30:08 ◼ ► that seems very inflexible. That seems, you know, based on things like the stock market,
00:30:14 ◼ ► that seems unlikely to change. I think they're probably always going to release new iPhones
00:30:17 ◼ ► in, you know, the fall, probably in September, for the foreseeable future because that's
00:30:22 ◼ ► such a big part of the company and its finances and everything else. The other thing that
00:30:33 ◼ ► I know this is complicated. I know that, you know, you have, like, they couldn't have just
00:30:38 ◼ ► shipped the new iPhones all of a sudden with iOS 12 because new iPhones have new hardware
00:30:43 ◼ ► in them and the new OSes have, like, basically, like, the drivers for that hardware, whatever
00:30:49 ◼ ► the equivalent of that is in modern iOS architecture, like, and they have to test and certify that
00:30:54 ◼ ► the drivers for the new hardware work in the OS that they're in. So it is a non-trivial
00:30:59 ◼ ► job to backport the, you know, quote, "drivers" for the iPhone 11, to backport those to iOS
00:31:13 ◼ ► So maybe the right thing to do here is to disconnect the brand new cutting edge software,
00:31:24 ◼ ► purposes, because it's software, that's reasonable, disconnect that from the hardware release.
00:31:33 ◼ ► iPhones are called, develop their drivers and test their drivers for iOS 13. Don't make
00:31:39 ◼ ► it iOS 14 only, so it bonds those things together in their release schedules. Develop the next
00:31:44 ◼ ► iPhones for iOS 13. And if it just so happens that iOS 14 is ready on time, great, you never
00:31:51 ◼ ► had to use it. But to have that contingency plan from the start, to have that be planned
00:32:01 ◼ ► point whatever, I think that is a recipe for much better outcomes, much better software
00:32:07 ◼ ► quality. And then, you know, then if iOS 14 has to slip until November, fine, it doesn't
00:32:14 ◼ ► really matter. But that's what, that isn't what they've done so far. They've bonded these
00:32:18 ◼ ► things together. And while they have reasons why they've done it, I don't think they're
00:32:34 ◼ ► bonded to hardware. They can choose to write the drivers for the last OS versus the next
00:32:48 ◼ ► entire new major operating system. It would just have a new point release. The interesting
00:32:52 ◼ ► thing about this whole conundrum is that Apple just learned this lesson after iOS 11, right?
00:32:59 ◼ ► That's what iOS 12 was about. So they swung, you know, they said, "Well, you know, we learned
00:33:03 ◼ ► our lesson. We needed to concentrate on stability and speed and making old phones faster and
00:33:16 ◼ ► again. They need to get a steadier state and a longer memory. Like, there is a happy medium.
00:33:27 ◼ ► to blame for this. And Marco was talking about decoupling them. And all those, you know,
00:33:35 ◼ ► more expensive, but it gives you more flexibility. You could also go with, like, the Infinite
00:33:43 ◼ ► such thing as a major Big Bang release anymore and it's just incremental features forever
00:33:46 ◼ ► and ever. Lots of reasons why Apple wouldn't want to do that for marketing and so on and
00:33:55 ◼ ► releases, never any releases, just point releases, totally decoupled, independent timelines,
00:34:07 ◼ ► if Apple wants to do, for marketing reasons, a year, like, the current thing where they
00:34:12 ◼ ► do a new OS and a new phone at the same time every year, so on and so forth, it's possible
00:34:17 ◼ ► to do that and not mess up. It's just as possible to do that and not mess up as it is to do
00:34:26 ◼ ► or whatever is possible to be successful at. You just have to have different trade-offs.
00:34:32 ◼ ► If they're totally decoupled, you have more flexibility, but on the other hand, you also
00:34:36 ◼ ► can get into a situation where you bite off more than you can chew and like, 14 doesn't
00:34:50 ◼ ► or a no-go? What do we use to judge quality? And sometimes they get it right and are very
00:35:01 ◼ ► and it goes terribly. So I'm all for changing the scheme if it seems like they're having
00:35:21 ◼ ► problems with strategy X of release. We're going to change the strategy Y that will eliminate
00:35:29 ◼ ► years later, everyone's sick of those problems and they swing back in the other direction.
00:35:32 ◼ ► So you know, this is not related to Apple in quality, but people in the Destiny community
00:35:47 ◼ ► creators of Destiny, had tons of server issues as the flood of people came into play and,
00:35:54 ◼ ► you know, gamers being gamers, were all angry at them and yelling and saying, "You knew
00:36:05 ◼ ► And it's like, that's exactly what consumers should think. They have an expectation that,
00:36:18 ◼ ► a game, and I can't play for the game." They don't have to be jerks about it. But anyway,
00:36:22 ◼ ► I excuse them from not knowing. But as someone who has worked in server-side software my
00:36:43 ◼ ► to use it and it has problems? Like, of course. Of course it does. There is no magical…
00:36:57 ◼ ► to predict how… The systems are so complicated and we don't fully understand them and we
00:37:01 ◼ ► don't account for so many different variables. And Bungie is doing exactly the same thing
00:37:06 ◼ ► as Apple, only on a compressed time scale. Not sleeping, scrambling on a trick and with
00:37:11 ◼ ► their heads cut off, fixing problems as fast as they possibly can. You know, launch day.
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00:39:31 ◼ ► with a beautiful website from Squarespace. I don't think we spent the time last episode
00:39:51 ◼ ► the term is for it, but basically the direct transfer between the two phones. And I did
00:40:09 ◼ ► our frown upside down, I wanted to commend that commend apple in that the direct transfer
00:40:16 ◼ ► worked pretty darn well for me. Comically, the thing that tripped me up the most, although
00:40:20 ◼ ► it only took me a minute or two to figure out was that it didn't transfer my phone number
00:40:25 ◼ ► from the old phone to the new phone, which to the best of my recollection always happened
00:40:28 ◼ ► in years past. And I couldn't figure out what to do about it. And I was really kind of stuck
00:40:33 ◼ ► and wasn't sure what to do. And then it occurred to me, no, you idiot, you just move the SIM.
00:40:37 ◼ ► That's all you need to do. And then it worked no problem. But my recollection from a couple
00:40:42 ◼ ► of years ago was that all I needed to do was restore backup and magically everything would
00:40:46 ◼ ► work. Maybe my recollection was wrong. But anyway, all that to say that it worked pretty
00:40:51 ◼ ► darn well for me. Marco, what did you do, and John, what did Tina do in order to transfer
00:40:57 ◼ ► >> So I did, this is the first year. Normally I do the, for the last couple of years I've
00:41:10 ◼ ► >> And then it does like the direct transfer for some stuff and then it does iCloud for
00:41:17 ◼ ► >> No, well that, the iCloud part of it, that's been a few years old. I think at least one
00:41:23 ◼ ► or two years old. But what was new this year was the offer to do a direct transfer. And
00:41:40 ◼ ► time for some people. And what we think, what I think we've worked out here is that the
00:41:44 ◼ ► direct transfer seems to transfer downloaded media between the two phones. So in my case
00:41:51 ◼ ► I had a bunch of music downloaded to my phone. I think it might also transfer downloaded
00:41:54 ◼ ► photos but I'm not sure about that. But anyway, so downloaded media, if you have music and
00:41:59 ◼ ► movies and maybe photos, the direct transfer will actually transfer those instead of relying
00:42:13 ◼ ► And it was great because all my music and stuff was there. It did successfully transfer
00:42:18 ◼ ► like key chain logins, passwords. Slack finally learned to use the key chain API so that was
00:42:24 ◼ ► nice. So almost everything transferred without needing to re-download. But then it's funny
00:42:32 ◼ ► two or three hours, and I kind of assumed like oh now my phone will boot up and it will
00:42:37 ◼ ► be ready to use. And nope, it booted up and still did download all the apps from iCloud.
00:42:42 ◼ ► So that was kind of annoying in that it just took a lot longer than I expected. But the
00:42:47 ◼ ► result was really nice. And one little nice thing I noticed, I don't know how recent this
00:43:03 ◼ ► little nice thing that I noticed this year that I don't think was there in previous years
00:43:07 ◼ ► is when you do that, if you had it on your phone before and you reinstall it from TestFlight
00:43:17 ◼ ► - Yeah, yeah I noticed that too. And I thought I saw, maybe I'm making this up, but I thought
00:43:21 ◼ ► I saw that they would have, there would be like proxy icons almost, that's my term, not
00:43:26 ◼ ► an official term, where there was like a cloud and a down arrow. So it's like download this
00:43:39 ◼ ► - I may be lying to you about that, but I'm doing so accidentally. But I think what that
00:43:56 ◼ ► - So I suggested to her that she just do the, you know, the hold the phone up and the little
00:44:02 ◼ ► cloudy picture thing, and then iCloud, restore from iCloud, backup. Because I knew about
00:44:13 ◼ ► fashioned way, and it worked fine. But then when we were, it's not setting up a new phone,
00:44:24 ◼ ► replacing it with her old iPhone 10. I decided to do the direct transfer, mostly because
00:44:39 ◼ ► from iCloud, you pick the direct data transfer from the other phone. The only tricky bit
00:44:43 ◼ ► about it is there's a whole bunch of screens to get through to get to it. I thought I had
00:44:47 ◼ ► gotten to the screen where I could just plug it in and walk away and let them do the transfer.
00:44:50 ◼ ► I had not, so I came back like, it said, this will take about 20 minutes. I came back 20
00:44:57 ◼ ► So stupid. But yeah, it seemed to work okay. You mentioned SIM swapping before. Of course,
00:45:09 ◼ ► new case and then realized I forgot to swap the SIM. So I had to take the case off, which
00:45:17 ◼ ► can you do? So I swapped the SIM and then to make sure everything worked after the phone
00:45:22 ◼ ► was all set up and everything was transferred to the thing I usually do, which is I call
00:45:26 ◼ ► that phone from my phone to make sure that the new phone rings, right? And the new phone
00:45:31 ◼ ► did ring, but so did the old phone. Well, it's all right. Well, wifi calling, you know,
00:45:37 ◼ ► it's audio FaceTime, it's internet, blah, blah, blah. So let me fix that by making sure
00:45:43 ◼ ► I'm doing the phone number and not like iMessage or FaceTime audio and both phones still ring.
00:45:54 ◼ ► old phone because the new phone does ring. And so I just turn off the old phone and I've
00:46:04 ◼ ► we've been podcasting iPhone six, right? Yeah. We talked about how thin it is and everything.
00:46:08 ◼ ► He managed not to bend it, which is amazing because the first phone we gave him the five
00:46:12 ◼ ► S he bent, which is a hell of a thing. Wow. Five S it's kind of impressive. Yeah. Yeah.
00:46:17 ◼ ► It was bent pretty badly too. Like, like separating the layers kind of bent. Oh yeah. Like you
00:46:32 ◼ ► Okay, fine. Turn around and look at the back and you're like, that's the camera. It's so
00:46:37 ◼ ► small and there's only one of them. It's the small, it's like, it's hilariously small. It's,
00:46:43 ◼ ► it's like a little tiny baby camera. It's like an iPod touch. Yeah. That's what it's like. And,
00:46:48 ◼ ► and it does stick out, but barely, it barely sticks out. It's like a tiny little, tiny little
00:46:54 ◼ ► blueberry. Remember how much everybody cared too? Like, cause that was the first one that stuck out.
00:46:59 ◼ ► Like that was such a big deal among like, you know, nerds like us like that. Oh my God,
00:47:02 ◼ ► there's a camera bump now. How could we stoop to this level flat on the table? Yeah. Rocks.
00:47:07 ◼ ► And now it's just like, there's a giant mountain for the camera and the camera and the phone itself
00:47:14 ◼ ► is much thicker. Well, that was also, that was also the slipperiest phone I think they've ever
00:47:17 ◼ ► made. And, uh, and so they, uh, they solve the doesn't lay flat on the desk problem by making
00:47:23 ◼ ► all of us need cases. For real, John, in settings, cellular calls on other devices. Do you see what
00:47:31 ◼ ► the story is there? That could be what it was. Cause I know like the thing is the phones were
00:47:35 ◼ ► near each other and they're both on the same wifi. So I'm like, it's probably just the phones knowing
00:47:40 ◼ ► about it because I didn't like, I didn't erase the other phone yet. It just didn't have the right SIM
00:47:45 ◼ ► in it. So anyway, I'm, I'm, it's fine. Like this is, this phone is going off, it's going up into
00:47:51 ◼ ► the attic and it won't receive calls anymore. And the new phone is receiving calls. So it's all set.
00:47:56 ◼ ► I'm surprised you're not erasing it before putting it in longterm storage. Yeah, whatever.
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00:49:53 ◼ ► All right, so tell me one of you about XDR Display Tech being in iPads and MacBook Pros sometime
00:50:07 ◼ ► I thought this rumor was interesting because it's our old pal Ming-Chi Kuo, who is actually fairly
00:50:14 ◼ ► accurate with the part sleek type rumors. And the part in question is badly described in this article.
00:50:21 ◼ ► I've amended the quote here. You know, they're talking about high end iPad and MacBook models with
00:50:26 ◼ ► mini LED. I think it said mini LED displays. They don't have mini LED displays. People keep talking
00:50:32 ◼ ► about this and they keep calling them mini LED displays. Not what they are. It's mini LED back
00:50:36 ◼ ► lights in front of LCD displays, which is that's the XDR technology, right? Between late 2020 and
00:50:43 ◼ ► mid 2021. So this got me thinking, by the way, you know, the specifics of the tech, there is a big
00:50:53 ◼ ► step up from the XDR because the XDR is like 7, I don't know, 576 backlights, like tiny little LEDs
00:51:01 ◼ ► forming the backlight, which is a lot, although I think they're not all independently controlled.
00:51:07 ◼ ► Anyway, the new one is supposedly using 10,000 LEDs, which sounds like a lot, but it is way
00:51:13 ◼ ► smaller than the number of actual pixels still. Again, OLED has the advantage that there is no
00:51:19 ◼ ► backlight that's controlled with a bunch of stuff in front of it. Every single pixel is its own
00:51:23 ◼ ► source of light. An actual mini LED display, every single pixel will be made up of tiny little LEDs.
00:51:29 ◼ ► That's not what this is. This is a backlight that is more granular than one big light and more
00:51:34 ◼ ► granular than three regions, you know, and they keep increasing the number of regions. 10,000
00:51:38 ◼ ► is a lot of LEDs, but it may be a smaller number of regions, even though that's the number of LEDs.
00:51:42 ◼ ► The reason I'm interested in this story is I'm trying to imagine how it could possibly be true,
00:51:53 ◼ ► because this particular technology, having a big grid array of lights, essentially, and then a bunch
00:52:01 ◼ ► of layers sandwiched in front of it, culminating in the typical layers that make up an LCD,
00:52:07 ◼ ► is really thick. And I can't imagine how you could fit that in an iPad or a MacBook without making it
00:52:14 ◼ ► hugely thick and also hot, right? I mean, if you look at the Cinema Display XDR with 500 little
00:52:21 ◼ ► LEDs in it, it's not thick for the hell of it. They use all that space. There's lots of stuff
00:52:27 ◼ ► inside there, including fans. If you're going to make one for the iPad or a MacBook with,
00:52:32 ◼ ► you know, 10,000 LED backlights inside it, I don't understand how that can be the right thickness.
00:52:40 ◼ ► So it got me thinking like, "Oh, maybe it's, you know, maybe they're making XDR displays that
00:52:47 ◼ ► aren't as big as the giant one. Maybe this rumor is just off. Or maybe there is an advancement in
00:52:53 ◼ ► this type of display technology that I'm not aware of." Because they are making televisions with it,
00:53:00 ◼ ► Cinema Display XDR. Anyway, I'm interested in this rumor just because it's a head scratcher in terms
00:53:07 ◼ ► of feasibility. And I would just dismiss it as like, "Oh, whatever." But, you know, it's from
00:53:12 ◼ ► a source that has been right in the past. So I'm willing to entertain the idea that either this is
00:53:18 ◼ ► an entirely different product or that Apple has found a way to make the Cinema Display XDR
00:53:28 ◼ ► Moving on, a week or two ago, maybe even a little more than that, there was something that happened
00:53:36 ◼ ► wherein a bunch of some sort of professional like audio or video software, I don't recall what it
00:53:42 ◼ ► was, Avid in front of me, thank you, Avid, would just stop working all of a sudden. And nobody
00:53:48 ◼ ► really knew why for like a solid, I don't know, 12 to 24 hours. And it turns out, you know, even
00:53:55 ◼ ► though we just spent, especially me, spent some time saying perhaps yearly releases aren't the
00:53:59 ◼ ► greatest. Well, it turns out daily releases or whatever Chrome is on these days may also not be
00:54:04 ◼ ► the best. So in certain situations, which I guess a lot of Avid or computers dedicated to Avid ran
00:54:14 ◼ ► into, in certain situations, Chrome would cause the computer to what, not be bootable or something
00:54:20 ◼ ► like that? Tell me about what's going on. This was, this was kind of amazing. So like, it wasn't,
00:54:25 ◼ ► it turns out like this was, it started being reported as like, oh, there's something up with
00:54:29 ◼ ► Mac Pros running Avid that are bricking. And it was first, it was like the Mac Pros are breaking
00:54:35 ◼ ► and then, then it became Avid is breaking them. And then eventually what they figured out is,
00:54:39 ◼ ► is that had nothing to do with Mac Pros or Avid. It just so happened to spread a lot among that
00:54:44 ◼ ► community first, because many people who run Avid and many people who are an Avid running on Mac
00:54:50 ◼ ► Pros, uh, disable system integrity protection for whatever reason. I don't know if it's due to those
00:54:55 ◼ ► weird little like anti-piracy keys they use or whatever it is, whatever the reason, a lot of
00:54:59 ◼ ► people running some of those pro tools disable system integrity protection. And if you were
00:55:04 ◼ ► running on a Mac with system integrity protection disabled and you happen to run Chrome and it
00:55:09 ◼ ► happened to run this update in just, I guess just the wrong way, it would delete your /var folder,
00:55:16 ◼ ► which on a Unix system is kind of a problem. So John, did I get that roughly right? Yeah,
00:55:25 ◼ ► actually deleted the SIM link cause /var on a Mac is actually a SIM link to /private/var.
00:55:31 ◼ ► Oh yeah. Yeah. Like, so the Chrome, Chrome is what we were talking about before of like
00:55:39 ◼ ► don't worry about versions anymore. We will, the application will update itself as new updates
00:55:43 ◼ ► appear. You don't have to worry about it all. Every time you run it, it will basically be the
00:55:47 ◼ ► latest version. Occasionally maybe we'll nag you to reboot, to restart the program if you haven't
00:55:52 ◼ ► done so in a while. Right. That's what Chrome does. And it does that with this background
00:55:55 ◼ ► process called Keystone or whatever that you'll see running on your Mac for many years that is
00:56:00 ◼ ► responsible for doing updates. And this is basically, might as well be like a, you know,
00:56:06 ◼ ► the poster child for system integrity protection. System integrity protection is supposed to,
00:56:09 ◼ ► as the name says, protect the integrity of your system. Meaning there's parts of your computer
00:56:13 ◼ ► that are the operating system and they should not be, it should not be possible to mess with them.
00:56:21 ◼ ► They should be invulnerable, you know, even if you try to delete them, you shouldn't be able to. And
00:56:25 ◼ ► this, as we all know from the stories, the beginning of a Mac OS X is a real problem for
00:56:31 ◼ ► real users because users would boot into Mac OS X coming from classic Mac OS and they'd see this
00:56:35 ◼ ► folder called library. And they're like, well, I don't want any of this library stuff. It must've
00:56:38 ◼ ► just come with a bunch of books and they would delete it. And that's render their computer
00:56:43 ◼ ► inoperable because your computer needs those files. Cause they're part of the operating system
00:56:47 ◼ ► and they're there. They're going to say rightly so how am I supposed to know what the heck is part of
00:56:50 ◼ ► the operating system? All I know is I see a bunch of stuff that wasn't there before. It doesn't
00:56:53 ◼ ► belong to me. I don't want it. I'm going to delete it. System integrity protection makes it so that
00:56:58 ◼ ► you can't delete it. And you know, more recent versions within the past few years of Mac OS X
00:57:02 ◼ ► hides the library folder and do all sorts of stuff to prevent this. But bottom line, there's the UI
00:57:07 ◼ ► aspect of it, of not putting things in people's faces that understand. And then there is the sort
00:57:11 ◼ ► of security and reliability aspect of it, which is don't let people delete that. It should be
00:57:16 ◼ ► impossible to delete it. That's exactly what system integrity protection does. It makes it impossible
00:57:20 ◼ ► to delete things that are essential for the operating system to even boot the computer.
00:57:25 ◼ ► Is it enabling system integrity protection? I can imagine lots of reasons why they might do it. You
00:57:31 ◼ ► already mentioned the dongles software that hasn't been updated to account for it. Software that
00:57:40 ◼ ► just because that's what it's always been able to do. It's very difficult to transform a PC
00:57:47 ◼ ► operating system from a world where programs can write anything anywhere, as long as you give them
00:57:52 ◼ ► permission, to a world where certain things are absolutely positively off limits. It's also,
00:57:57 ◼ ► I suppose, maybe possible that those computers were running a version before system integrity
00:58:03 ◼ ► protection came out. When I saw this story, I immediately thought, "Oh no, I have Chrome on my
00:58:08 ◼ ► Mac. Does my Mac even have system integrity protection?" But guess what? System integrity
00:58:13 ◼ ► protection was introduced in the latest version of the operating system that my Mac can run.
00:58:18 ◼ ► So I do indeed have system integrity protection. It is indeed enabled, which is good because I do
00:58:23 ◼ ► run Chrome and it probably did run that updater. So yeah, why does system integrity protection
00:58:28 ◼ ► exist? To protect the operating system from bugs in other programs, like say a bug in an
00:58:33 ◼ ► updater that accidentally deletes an essential part of the system without which your computer
00:58:38 ◼ ► won't boot. My favorite thing about this, I think, is the official Chrome, or I believe this to be
00:58:45 ◼ ► the official Chrome like statement on it or Google statement on it. "Chrome update impacts some MacOS
00:58:50 ◼ ► systems." Impact is an understatement. Yeah, for real. They describe what's going on and then
00:58:56 ◼ ► "Update number two, September 27, 2019. A new recommendation has been added in place of the
00:59:06 ◼ ► machine that has been affected by this bug, use the directions found here to reinstall MacOS
00:59:19 ◼ ► you know, there was like a bug report thread where like, "Oh, here's what you do to fix it. That's
00:59:23 ◼ ► just like a, you know, a tech person telling other tech people here how you can fix it."
00:59:28 ◼ ► But thinking that you can put instructions, like that you know how to restore things the way they
00:59:35 ◼ ► were, you're probably mostly right. But Apple changes stuff like that all the time. The bottom
00:59:40 ◼ ► line is it's part of the operating system that you deleted. You may know how to put it back now
00:59:46 ◼ ► so that it works, but are you sure you got everything? And what about the next version of
00:59:49 ◼ ► the operating system, the next version, and so on and so forth? Now, this is not going to be a
00:59:52 ◼ ► persistent problem because again, the infinite version and they'll just move on and no one will
00:59:56 ◼ ► ever install this version of Chrome again, and that version of Keystone will be gone, yada, yada.
01:00:00 ◼ ► But telling people the fix for our bug is to paste a bunch of these commands into the terminal
01:00:07 ◼ ► as root, it's not a great solution. So although it sounds ridiculous for us to like, you know,
01:00:12 ◼ ► nuke and pave and say, "Reinstall the operating system," that is really the official supported
01:00:17 ◼ ► way to fix it. If something borks your operating system, you probably should reinstall it because
01:00:22 ◼ ► who knows if your supposed fix running a bunch of commands as root is going to work. And it's
01:00:35 ◼ ► but there was a sad day for John recently. Sounds like you're going to have to divorce your TiVo,
01:00:59 ◼ ► Newhart Which, yay, TiVo's not out of business and they're making new hardware. And I was excited
01:01:03 ◼ ► about that for those two reasons. I was also excited because the new hardware is not bent.
01:01:07 ◼ ► For people who don't know, the current line of TiVo products come in this jointly bent box. It's
01:01:15 ◼ ► like, imagine a little rectangular box, but like bend it about a third of the way through it, like
01:01:20 ◼ ► literally bend it so it's up like a little, you know, like a little tent. It's terrible. You can't
01:01:25 ◼ ► stack anything on top of and they're noisy and annoying and I don't like them. We have one of
01:01:30 ◼ ► those in the house, but, you know, and they shipped them for years and years. So finally,
01:01:34 ◼ ► they're going to ship hardware that's not bent. So I was excited about that. But the news that
01:01:39 ◼ ► I'm not so excited about came a little bit later, which is that TiVo is going to basically add
01:01:46 ◼ ► pre-roll advertisements in front of recording. So you go to your TiVo, you find a recording,
01:01:51 ◼ ► you hit play to watch the recording. And rather than playing the recording, what it will do first
01:01:55 ◼ ► is play an ad and then play your recording, which is terrible because most people have TiVo, so they
01:02:02 ◼ ► can skip ads and TiVo touts all of its ad skipping features. They haven't gone all the way to the old
01:02:08 ◼ ► replay TV thing where they automatically skip all the commercials for you, but they basically do
01:02:12 ◼ ► that. They have people put little waypoints in all of the popular programs. So to skip commercials,
01:02:17 ◼ ► you hit a single button that jumps past all of them immediately. It's really nice. But then
01:02:22 ◼ ► they're going to insert their own ad. Now, you can skip their own ad as well. So practically speaking,
01:02:29 ◼ ► it impacts your experience by adding one more mandatory ad skip. And also people have said
01:02:39 ◼ ► that it's slow because it loads the ads from the internet and it's actually worse experience than
01:02:45 ◼ ► just skipping an extra ad. But it's basically that. But setting aside the practical things,
01:02:57 ◼ ► wants from TiVo. It goes against everything that their loyal customers, their few remaining loyal
01:03:03 ◼ ► customers want out of TiVo. And so you may be asking yourself, or maybe Casey's asking himself,
01:03:10 ◼ ► how could a corporation do this? I mean, I think we all know the answers, right? TiVo is not doing
01:03:15 ◼ ► great. When the companies aren't doing great, it isn't surprising. It's sad, but it's not surprising
01:03:23 ◼ ► when they do something desperate to try to make more money. And I can, although I think they're
01:03:31 ◼ ► making a terrible mistake, as everybody thinks they're making a terrible mistake, I can actually
01:03:36 ◼ ► argue for the other side of it. And the other side of it is this. They have this small set of loyal
01:03:42 ◼ ► customers. They could be making the calculation that we can afford to annoy them because where
01:03:52 ◼ ► else are they going to go? What are they going to switch to? The whole reason they're using TiVo is
01:03:57 ◼ ► because they think that they don't like their cable company's DVR. They think that they can't
01:04:03 ◼ ► get by just using streaming. That's why they're still using TiVo. If they thought otherwise,
01:04:19 ◼ ► So we're about to go under, we need money. Can we squeeze more money out of our customers
01:04:27 ◼ ► by showing the mandatory ads that they can skip? It's a terrible mistake because there are so many
01:04:33 ◼ ► other ways you could squeeze money out of those people, like say doing that for everybody and then
01:04:37 ◼ ► charging an additional fee to not do that because we would all pay it. Again, these are all people
01:04:43 ◼ ► who think that they still want TiVo, but I can understand why they think they actually have a
01:04:49 ◼ ► captive audience. Their audience is so small and so desperate and so loyal and have so few
01:04:54 ◼ ► alternatives that they're making the calculation that this won't push them over the edge to say,
01:05:00 ◼ ► "I thought that I couldn't use my cable company's DVR, but this is going to make me try."
01:05:05 ◼ ► Because now, forget it, TiVo has completely betrayed me. They don't even have a way that
01:05:10 ◼ ► I can pay the money to make this go away, which is like the worst sin because that's basically what
01:05:15 ◼ ► TiVo people do. They pay huge amounts of money that other people don't pay for a slightly better,
01:05:19 ◼ ► in their opinion, experience. TiVo could have just charged more money or put in the ads and charged
01:05:26 ◼ ► people to skip. They'd still be screaming, don't get me wrong, because people pay like I pay the
01:05:29 ◼ ► big upfront fees for like lifetime so I don't have to pay them on a monthly basis. And apparently,
01:05:35 ◼ ► that's still not enough money. So if you came back to those lifetime people and said, "Oh,
01:05:38 ◼ ► now you're going to have a monthly fee again," or you got to pay another 500 bucks or whatever,
01:05:42 ◼ ► people would be up in arms. But they'd be less up in arms than if you make them watch ads or
01:05:46 ◼ ► make them skip ads. So good old TiVo. I actually prefer this to them going out of business,
01:05:55 ◼ ► because at least it gives me the option. I can leave TiVo or I could not leave TiVo. If they
01:06:00 ◼ ► go out of business, I don't have that option anymore. But I will say that this made me look at
01:06:05 ◼ ► the Fios DVR to see what state it's in, which is something I had never done before. Practically
01:06:13 ◼ ► speaking, unless they screw it up even more, I probably will eventually get one of these TiVOs,
01:06:19 ◼ ► assuming they're still in business at the time I need to get a new one. The only thing that's
01:06:22 ◼ ► scaring me about it is I didn't see a large capacity model. That's one of my complaints about
01:06:32 ◼ ► So you can store 100 or 200 hours of HD in my current TiVo store is like 500 hours or something
01:06:38 ◼ ► insane. It's twice as big as the biggest one you can get from the cable company. And we're always
01:06:45 ◼ ► at 85% capacity or more, and we have to manage to that. So that's why I'll probably still end up
01:06:51 ◼ ► buying one of these. I'm hoping I can do a DNS black hole on the address for the streaming. But
01:06:58 ◼ ► what I'm really hoping is that the incredible bad press that TiVo is getting about this bad press,
01:07:03 ◼ ► like anyone talks about TiVo, the incredible bad reaction they're getting from their loyal
01:07:08 ◼ ► customers will make them think twice about this and say, "Maybe we shouldn't do this." Because if
01:07:12 ◼ ► they had thought, if they had made that calculation, like, "Look, our customers are captive,"
01:07:15 ◼ ► one look at literally anywhere this story appears from anything said by any actual TiVo customer,
01:07:24 ◼ ► and they would know, "Well, 100% of the TiVo customers who have commented on the story had
01:07:27 ◼ ► said they're leaving TiVo unequivocally. That's it. As we've miscalculated, we thought they had
01:07:34 ◼ ► nowhere to go. They're going. Where they're going, we don't know, but they're going." So this is a
01:07:39 ◼ ► terrible decision TiVo needs to reconsider. The fact that this hasn't shipped yet makes me think
01:07:44 ◼ ► there's time to reconsider because they are right and the customers really don't have any place
01:08:10 ◼ ► the new software for TiVo is so bad. Not in terms of bugs or, again, data loss crashes. No,
01:08:25 ◼ ► and on the actual television device. It is worse than the previous UI in every single way,
01:08:31 ◼ ► in hilariously obvious ways that I could go on about for hours and hours and hours. It just
01:08:40 ◼ ► To give just one example, which grinds my gears every time I look at it, on the iOS app,
01:08:46 ◼ ► they change from a text list of episodes. You go into a show and say, "Here's all the episodes
01:08:52 ◼ ► of the show," and it would show just a list. It would have the title of the show and a date,
01:09:06 ◼ ► The thumbnail is very often a single static screen that is the same for every single episode. It's
01:09:13 ◼ ► just like a splash screen for the show. I don't know if other shows don't have this, but all the
01:09:18 ◼ ► shows that I watch, it just shows the same image from every single thumbnail. It's horizontal
01:09:25 ◼ ► so you can fit maybe three or four or five of them, depending on what orientation you have
01:09:29 ◼ ► your iPad in. They scroll horizontally. The whole rest of the screen is wasted where you
01:09:33 ◼ ► could have a list. They scroll horizontally. No text. What episode is that? What episode is that
01:09:38 ◼ ► next to it? They are literally identical. There is nothing on them to distinguish them from each
01:09:43 ◼ ► other. If you go into a show and you say, "I want to see episode number five or episode number 11,"
01:09:49 ◼ ► you've got to count squares. One, two, three, four. What if you're looking by title? Tough luck. You
01:09:54 ◼ ► can't see the title. If you tap on it and go into a detail view, then you can see the title.
01:09:58 ◼ ► How does that even happen? At first, I thought it was a bug or maybe it's just for some shows.
01:10:05 ◼ ► That is one sample of the huge downgrade that is the modern TiVo software. I have the modern TiVo
01:10:13 ◼ ► software because one of my old TiVos got a bad hard drive and I got it replaced under warranty.
01:10:22 ◼ ► I didn't want to bother going through it because my "main TiVo" still has the old software. TiVo was
01:10:28 ◼ ► really swinging and missing lately, but that is not surprising for companies that are not doing well.
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01:12:33 ◼ ► We already covered the new Microsoft stuff in the pre-show, so we're good on that, right?
01:12:37 ◼ ► Yep. Actually, yeah. I did have some things to say about this. I don't know how long we want to go
01:12:45 ◼ ► here, but it's not about the products themselves. One meta comment before we get to the products,
01:12:55 ◼ ► I searched for Microsoft Duo Neo, right? And I expected after scrolling past a couple of things,
01:13:02 ◼ ► I'd find eventually the link to Microsoft site, right? Where they, you know, the official pages,
01:13:09 ◼ ► wired story or a link to the Verge. Let's just go to the Microsoft site. As far as I could tell,
01:13:24 ◼ ► but I did manually go to Microsoft.com and I didn't see these products on the homepage.
01:13:30 ◼ ► And it just shows how accustomed I am to the Apple way of doing things where they get up on stage,
01:13:34 ◼ ► they have a thing, they say, look at this great new stuff, and this is coming in the fall or
01:13:38 ◼ ► coming whenever, blah, blah, blah. And then as soon as they go off stage, you can go to apple.com
01:13:43 ◼ ► and probably on the homepage, some big image about one of the things they showed and maybe
01:13:48 ◼ ► see smaller images about other stuff. Like there's an official site. I don't think there's an
01:13:52 ◼ ► official site for these products yet. So we will link to the Verge story, I guess. But anyway,
01:13:58 ◼ ► what I wanted to talk about in relation to these products, which we should describe briefly,
01:14:03 ◼ ► is not the products themselves or the operating systems or all the reasons that Mark already
01:14:08 ◼ ► outlined about why we're not particularly interested in them and tend not to cover them,
01:14:12 ◼ ► but a larger point. So description, these are basically foldable devices where it looks like
01:14:20 ◼ ► a big or a small book where each half of the inside of the book is a screen. When you close it,
01:14:30 ◼ ► It's not a continuous screen like all those other cell phones with a big piece of plastic across it.
01:14:37 ◼ ► It's two screens with a hinge between them. There is a gap. There is a crease. It is two
01:14:41 ◼ ► physically separate screens connected by a hinge. There's a little one, which is called the Duo,
01:14:46 ◼ ► and there's a bigger one, which is called the Neo. The bigger one is laptop-sized, and it comes with
01:14:51 ◼ ► a little keyboard that you can lay on top of the screen element. And the little one is, I'm not
01:14:56 ◼ ► going to say it's phone-sized, but it's phablet-sized. Yeah, I guess it's phablet-sized.
01:15:01 ◼ ► And the main thing for the reason I was like today, yesterday, it hasn't been much time
01:15:15 ◼ ► The one thing I wanted to talk about is kind of the same thing we talk about with the foldable
01:15:19 ◼ ► stuff. What advantage do we see to having two screens? And I want to talk about the smaller
01:15:30 ◼ ► one first, I suppose. The bigger one, I think I have clearer answers, but the smaller one,
01:15:34 ◼ ► I'm kind of left with the same question as the foldable phones. Let's pretend that this was
01:15:39 ◼ ► awesome. Let's pretend they ran iOS. Pretend whatever you want, like setting aside anything
01:15:45 ◼ ► that may keep you away from it. Do you think you would want, would you find useful something like
01:15:58 ◼ ► I don't know. I got to imagine there would be one, but sitting here now, I don't have the
01:16:05 ◼ ► faintest idea. I mean, the obvious thing you can think of is, well, you can see more stuff.
01:16:09 ◼ ► We all want to see more stuff. That's why bigger phones are nicer than smaller ones. You can see
01:16:13 ◼ ► more email messages. Things are bigger. With a crease between them, you can't really see
01:16:19 ◼ ► one thing bigger, but you can see two things, right? People like multiple monitors. What's
01:16:24 ◼ ► the advantage? I get that. I get the same exact reason why you'd want two monitors on your Mac is
01:16:29 ◼ ► why you'd want two screens on your phone. But you don't carry your two monitors in your hands.
01:16:37 ◼ ► So I'm looking at this device and I'm like, okay, it's thicker than a phone. It's about
01:16:44 ◼ ► phablet sized. Would I ever use both of the screens? Like you can have it folded up like
01:16:54 ◼ ► a phone and just use it like a really thick phone with one screen that you can't see because it's
01:16:57 ◼ ► not facing you. But would I unfold it to look at that second screen? Would I go into like
01:17:03 ◼ ► productivity mode with my phone phablet thing? Would I take it out and say, I'm going to set it
01:17:08 ◼ ► up in front of me and fold it like a little laptop or hold it like a paperback book and read a book,
01:17:14 ◼ ► one on each page? Like almost every scenario I can think of, I was like, I wouldn't do that.
01:17:21 ◼ ► It would be more cumbersome for me to do that. It would never make up for the additional weight
01:17:25 ◼ ► and complexity and size and heat and everything with that utility because it's a phone size thing.
01:17:33 ◼ ► Now maybe I'm wrong. Maybe we've crossed some threshold and we've gotten to the point where
01:17:42 ◼ ► in one smooth motion, pulling this thing out of their jacket pocket and flipping it open like a
01:17:46 ◼ ► paperback book and looking at it and have Instagram on the left and Twitter on the right, or been
01:17:52 ◼ ► messaging somebody on the right and it'll be like an awesome dual screen experience. And then they'll
01:17:56 ◼ ► fold it back up in one motion and shove it back in their pocket. Because you can imagine that if
01:18:00 ◼ ► it was thin enough and light enough that you could maybe pull it off. But I feel like we're not there
01:18:05 ◼ ► yet. And I don't think this is a thing that we should be shooting for quite yet. Like it seems
01:18:15 ◼ ► like something that should remain in the lab. Now it's hard to say because I haven't used one. Maybe
01:18:20 ◼ ► it's awesome. Maybe the utility will be clear as soon as you get one. You'd be like, "Oh,
01:18:23 ◼ ► I can't go back to an old phone because I can see so much less and I can't set it up as a mini
01:18:27 ◼ ► laptop in front of me when I sit down in Starbucks or whatever." But looking at these pictures, I am
01:18:41 ◼ ► sitting here now, I'm not really sure what's getting Mike so jazzed about the Galaxy Fold
01:18:46 ◼ ► or whatever it is that he's extraordinarily horny for. Whatever it is, I mean, if it makes him happy,
01:18:53 ◼ ► that's fine. Cool. I'm sure there will come a time that I will want something like that in an Apple
01:18:59 ◼ ► product or Android, depending on the way things are going, which I know that is Android. But anyway,
01:19:03 ◼ ► but I don't know. It just seems to, right now, today, it just seems way too clunky to me.
01:19:09 ◼ ► I don't know. I get the appeal. I really do. The whole reason why big phones are popular is because
01:19:18 ◼ ► when we're using it, we want the biggest possible screen we can get. And unfortunately, we also want
01:19:25 ◼ ► something that's small enough to fit in pockets and bags and everything, and that's oftentimes
01:19:29 ◼ ► harder. And so the appeal of the folding phone, which this kind of isn't, but the appeal of a
01:19:35 ◼ ► folding phone is you can get a much bigger screen with a smaller footprint when it's in your pocket
01:19:40 ◼ ► or bag, right? So that makes sense as a theory of why this is cool. That being said, I think,
01:19:49 ◼ ► as we're seeing with the first generation of foldable phones that are just kind of barely
01:19:54 ◼ ► fumbling out the door, it seems like there's still a lot of just physical, real-world reality
01:20:00 ◼ ► problems with these things that we're just not there yet. And so the Surface Duo that we're
01:20:05 ◼ ► talking about now, none of us have seen these in person yet, but looking at their images and videos
01:20:12 ◼ ► and stuff they announced today, it sure looks like, yeah, that would be really cool if it was
01:20:19 ◼ ► maybe five years from now and we've had all these times for advancements. Right now, it looks like
01:20:25 ◼ ► a really big, clunky, thick, heavy thing that has some really cool functionality that I would use
01:20:31 ◼ ► sometimes, but not most of the time. Most of the time we're using our phones, most of us at least,
01:20:41 ◼ ► I think we're doing things that don't require a massive screen. But sometimes it's really nice
01:20:46 ◼ ► to have one. So if you're doing something with media, obviously, you're looking at photos,
01:20:49 ◼ ► video, whatever, it's really nice to have those things, great. But if you're just trying to read
01:20:55 ◼ ► an email, it doesn't make a huge difference how big your screen is, right? Or if you're
01:21:00 ◼ ► messaging, doing text messaging, which is probably the most common thing people do with their phones.
01:21:03 ◼ ► Screen size doesn't matter a whole lot. It matters in the sense of how big you can make the keyboard,
01:21:08 ◼ ► and that can affect typing accuracy and stuff. But once you get beyond a certain point,
01:21:25 ◼ ► they're just, we just call those phones. Like, what we used to call phablets when that was a word,
01:21:29 ◼ ► like that was like, you know, five and a half inch or six inch display. It's like, we just have those
01:21:33 ◼ ► now in our regular phones. But this is something else. This is like significantly larger than that,
01:21:38 ◼ ► significantly thicker. And I just, I don't, I think it's just too clunky for most people to
01:21:44 ◼ ► want this for the value it provides. And so down the road, when, you know, as John said, like,
01:21:50 ◼ ► you know, when technology advances more, this could be really cool. I think what's interesting
01:21:55 ◼ ► though also is that the Surface Duo is, while it was announced today, they're saying it's not
01:22:01 ◼ ► going to come out until the holiday season of 2020. So it is still a little bit over a year out
01:22:08 ◼ ► if it's on time. And so this is still like, they've barely even been able to achieve this.
01:22:15 ◼ ► And even this is not imminent. So we'll see what happens, you know, as this stuff actually comes
01:22:22 ◼ ► out, if it actually comes out, which is a big if. But even in what they're showing today, which is
01:22:29 ◼ ► probably best case scenario, it just looks like it's a bit too big and clunky for what people
01:22:33 ◼ ► actually want. But hey, you know, we could be wrong. Look, big phones surprised us when back
01:22:39 ◼ ► when, phablets were first for thing, we were all making fun of them and saying, well, who's going
01:22:43 ◼ ► to hold up an iPad to their face. And now we all basically hold up iPads to our faces. And, you
01:22:47 ◼ ► know, and it turns out that all the rest of the time that we're using it, we aren't holding up to
01:22:51 ◼ ► our face. No one cares about how big it is. And we all just hold it. You know, it might be that,
01:23:03 ◼ ► you know, men hold their phone, that isn't the case for most people. You know, a lot of people carry
01:23:08 ◼ ► bags and, you know, there's, there's lots of ways that we can carry things like this where if the
01:23:15 ◼ ► utility is high enough, people will do it. People will buy it. And maybe it isn't like, you know,
01:23:22 ◼ ► exactly what individuals like me or you might want, but that doesn't mean there won't be a
01:23:26 ◼ ► market for it. Like if you wanted to care, like if I carried some kind of bag or purse with me every
01:23:31 ◼ ► day and this would fit in there and I kept my phone in there anyway, well, I got a lot more
01:23:36 ◼ ► leeway on how big that phone can be before it gets on wheelie compared to a pants pocket. And if I
01:23:41 ◼ ► could have like much of a tablet's functionality in a footprint closer to a phone, that's pretty cool.
01:23:48 ◼ ► That, that would have high utility for me. So I don't know. I'm really curious to watch this.
01:23:55 ◼ ► I'm hesitant to outright say, Oh, it's, it's too big. No one will use it because we've been burned
01:24:02 ◼ ► predicting things like that in the past. But I'm also hesitant to be super optimistic about
01:24:13 ◼ ► - Real time follow up. Microsoft does in fact have pages for these products. We'll put the links in
01:24:18 ◼ ► the show notes. Why they're not linked from their homepage, I have no idea. Maybe they are linked
01:24:22 ◼ ► and I just couldn't find it. But anyway, there are pages. The fact that they're not coming out until
01:24:27 ◼ ► late next year explains why there's not much on these sites, but you know, that's fine.
01:24:31 ◼ ► The size thing, the screen space, the utility, the size stuff, I see that the part I keep getting
01:24:39 ◼ ► hung up on is the folding. Now this is modified somewhat by the fact that lots of people do use
01:24:45 ◼ ► like folio cases for their existing phones. Like you've seen people who take out their phone and
01:24:50 ◼ ► they actually do have to open it before they can use the phone. What they're usually opening though
01:24:57 ◼ ► is like a very thin flap over the phone and then there's the phone or anything. It's not an equally
01:25:02 ◼ ► sized computerized device that they have to fold over. But the phone habits that I see people
01:25:10 ◼ ► performing in public is people look at their phones a lot, people take their phones out and
01:25:16 ◼ ► put them away a lot, that motion gets repeated. The people with folios do have an additional thing
01:25:22 ◼ ► in that motion. I've got my pouch to deal with, right? They've got their little flappy cover,
01:25:26 ◼ ► but all those things are significantly less cumbersome than actually unfolding a device
01:25:34 ◼ ► that is equal parts electronics on both sides, let alone folding all the way back on itself on that
01:25:39 ◼ ► big hinge. It almost strikes me as a play at a smaller laptop than a play at a larger phone.
01:25:57 ◼ ► right? To be able to take it out, send a text and put it away, to see who was that that was texting
01:26:04 ◼ ► me. Because when this thing is closed, you can't see anything. There's no screens on the outside,
01:26:08 ◼ ► unlike some of the other folding phones, right? I just feel like the utility of this device is
01:26:21 ◼ ► quick phone-like device. It's so silly that we call these things phones or whatever, but
01:26:27 ◼ ► it seems like it's fulfilling a different role, which is fine. Maybe there's a role for it,
01:26:31 ◼ ► or a role for people who don't use their phones like that, who don't pull out their phone and
01:26:35 ◼ ► see who it was that texted them, who don't take a spare moment of waiting in line to read Twitter,
01:26:40 ◼ ► right? If that's not how you use your phone, this is much more appealing as a, you know,
01:26:46 ◼ ► as a phablet type thing with more utility. With Mike and his love for the foldable phone stuff,
01:26:51 ◼ ► there is a certain amount of like techno future lust of like, wow, it's just like we talked about
01:26:56 ◼ ► bendable screens, like the fact that it is all one screen, that you can actually do the thing that I
01:27:01 ◼ ► said you couldn't do earlier on this, which is see one thing larger, have a video playing bigger than
01:27:07 ◼ ► it could play. I don't think you'd want to play video with a big split down the middle, right?
01:27:11 ◼ ► But if it's actually all one screen, like those bendy phones are trying to be, you could, in
01:27:16 ◼ ► theory, unfold it and watch a movie on the plane just on your phone. Don't have to bring your
01:27:21 ◼ ► tablet because look how big the screen is when you unfold your phone. Obviously those foldy ones
01:27:30 ◼ ► That technology is nowhere near perfected. Taking something that is made of some kind of plastic or
01:27:35 ◼ ► polymer and bending it back and forth. Eventually it's going to crease or bend or crack and then the
01:27:40 ◼ ► crap gets inside them. And it's like what Microsoft is doing is much easier to do engineering wise and
01:27:47 ◼ ► a better solution engineering wise. They can make two solid, in theory, even waterproof, basically
01:27:52 ◼ ► phones and connect them with a good solid hinge. There's no weird bendy plastic part. There's no
01:27:58 ◼ ► gaps where crap can go in. None of that is a problem. But you got a big crease down the middle
01:28:04 ◼ ► of the screen. So I understand the trade off they were making, but it does. I can't imagine Mike
01:28:09 ◼ ► being as excited about this because it's not as cool and techno futurey as the all one screen
01:28:15 ◼ ► thing. This one though, I think could actually work and not break within the first 24 hour period,
01:28:19 ◼ ► unless in case he washes his car with it. That's true. That's true. That's a pro tip. Don't have
01:28:24 ◼ ► this with you when you're washing Aaron's car. I do wonder though, it's been a while since we've
01:28:30 ◼ ► had phones that had moving parts, besides camera lenses shaking around and stuff. But like...
01:28:37 ◼ ► The haptic engine. Yeah, but to have a giant hinge as something that is put under a lot of stress
01:28:50 ◼ ► thousands of times over the lifetime of this device. And that is dealing with lots of potential
01:28:55 ◼ ► stresses. Some of the times that it is being operated, it might have some grit or dust or
01:29:00 ◼ ► something in there. And you might be jamming it up somehow. There is going to have to be some kind of
01:29:06 ◼ ► cable that runs between the two halves. Probably some big ribbon cable that goes between them or
01:29:11 ◼ ► something like that. So that can wear out or break or pull away from whatever it's mounted to,
01:29:17 ◼ ► or flake out or whatever. I wonder, back when we had phones that folded and everything,
01:29:25 ◼ ► everything was a lot simpler technically. And people were not using their phones nearly as
01:29:29 ◼ ► often as they do now. And there wasn't nearly as much in those hinges and everything. Now,
01:29:39 ◼ ► significant physical issues with usage over time? It's actually pretty hard to develop a hinge that
01:29:45 ◼ ► is that good and that sturdy and that reliable under all the crazy conditions that people put
01:29:50 ◼ ► their phones in now. Yeah, that's a good point with the flip phones. That gets me back to what
01:29:54 ◼ ► I was saying about the Folio before. So the aspirations of this Duo product are that it is
01:29:59 ◼ ► possible to use it kind of in a laptop mode. They show it in the video, like, oh, you could open it
01:30:03 ◼ ► up and have the flat screen on the table be like a keyboard and the other part kind of up like in
01:30:07 ◼ ► an L shape. That's your screen, right? So the hinge has to be, has to have a mode where it is
01:30:13 ◼ ► stiff enough to support itself. But all of the things that have succeeded in the market for phones
01:30:20 ◼ ► have had the ability to flip open and close quickly. Flip phones, we've seen that little
01:30:26 ◼ ► motion, take out your phone, you flip it open. And more importantly, when you're done, snap,
01:30:31 ◼ ► close it right back up. When we had flip phones, that's how they operated. You could do that
01:30:36 ◼ ► because they either didn't have a screen on one side or had very sturdy plastic screens or
01:30:41 ◼ ► whatever. But like, they were treated in a way that you would not want to snap something like this
01:30:46 ◼ ► close. Like they weren't as delicate, let's say, as our current smartphones where if you were to
01:30:53 ◼ ► take two smartphones and slap them together with the ferocity that we closed our flip phones,
01:30:58 ◼ ► that would not be a good idea. They would last probably a few of those snaps and eventually
01:31:03 ◼ ► they would crack. And so this hinge has two things. This line is two things against it. One,
01:31:08 ◼ ► the hinge can't be really loose and yet loose is exactly how you'd want it to be like a folio case.
01:31:12 ◼ ► You want it to be loose, you can flip it open real easy. That's what we demand of our devices,
01:31:18 ◼ ► whether they be flip phones or a phone in a folio case. If you had a folio case with a hinge that
01:31:22 ◼ ► you had to pry open, no one would buy that case. It's terrible. But two, if you're going to have
01:31:27 ◼ ► aspirations to use it like a laptop, the hinge has to at least have a mode where it is stiff because
01:31:38 ◼ ► So it is not just a challenge to make a hinge that is durable enough, but I think part of the
01:31:45 ◼ ► challenge is also to make a device that can be flipped, opened and closed in the way that thus
01:31:49 ◼ ► far we have demanded of our phones while also not shattering itself when doing that while also
01:31:54 ◼ ► having a mode in which it is stiff. So it is quite an engineering challenge. I'm assuming they will
01:31:59 ◼ ► solve it by not doing any of that and simply making it like a laptop hinge, which is already
01:32:03 ◼ ► a challenge. It has the same challenges, but presumably laptops are not open and closed as
01:32:08 ◼ ► much as this would be. Although again, I get back to my discussion before, will this appeal to people
01:32:13 ◼ ► who need to look at their phone every two seconds or will this only appeal to people who basically
01:32:17 ◼ ► use like a laptop, in which case you're basically just making a good laptop hinge, which is itself
01:32:22 ◼ ► a difficult task. Just ask anyone who's had a Mac laptop repaired for ribbon cable stuff or whatever.
01:32:29 ◼ ► But the characteristics that would make this useful as a phone seem counter to the characteristics
01:32:40 ◼ ► - And keep in mind also a few other factors here. Number one, anything their phones can do,
01:32:45 ◼ ► people will idly fidget with that. So if you have a phone that can open and close, we did back when
01:32:52 ◼ ► we had the phones, people would just idly flip it open, flip it closed. It just adds an idle
01:32:56 ◼ ► animation. They would just fidget with it anywhere they were all day long, just fidgeting. People do
01:33:01 ◼ ► it with AirPods cases now. So that's gonna be a problem, number one. The number of open close
01:33:08 ◼ ► cycles on these things is gonna be way higher than a laptop. And number two, back when we had
01:33:16 ◼ ► flip phones, phones were heavily subsidized by the carriers on only two year contracts at most,
01:33:23 ◼ ► in most places, and they didn't cost $1,000. So now, if you're gonna have something like this,
01:33:31 ◼ ► I don't think they talked about pricing, I'd be surprised, but assume something like dual screen
01:33:35 ◼ ► phone like this is probably gonna be like, what, $1,500 maybe? It's not gonna be cheap.
01:33:39 ◼ ► And so you're gonna have this $1,500 unsubsidized phone that most people want something like that
01:33:47 ◼ ► to last them at least two or three years, and then add to it this moving part that is critical
01:33:55 ◼ ► to its operation. Oh, geez, that is a recipe for disappointment. And I think this is all part of
01:34:02 ◼ ► also why all of the Samsung Galaxy Fold and whatever the other one was, I think that's why
01:34:09 ◼ ► these products are having so much trouble getting to market also, because this is gonna be a problem
01:34:13 ◼ ► with any foldable phone. Any phone that can open and close that is not a basic flip phone,
01:34:19 ◼ ► they're all gonna have this problem, and you're just battling against physics at some point here,
01:34:23 ◼ ► like to design things that can take that kind of abuse in such a small size and have all those
01:34:30 ◼ ► characteristics and be affordable and be mass producible, you're just asking for trouble here.
01:34:35 ◼ ► So I think it's gonna be a while before any of this stuff is good, and it might never happen.
01:34:44 ◼ ► because that's really what I wanted to talk about, but it occurs to me that I have no idea if the
01:34:48 ◼ ► Surface Duo is meant to be a phone in any way whatsoever. This may not be the intention of the
01:34:53 ◼ ► Microsoft device. So forgive me for seeming to slam the Surface for a thing that is not even
01:34:59 ◼ ► intending to do. I think it is just a small laptop, in which case a lot of these problems
01:35:02 ◼ ► don't go away, but I'm thinking of the larger thing that we keep seeing, which is phone-ish
01:35:07 ◼ ► size devices that are foldable, with the idea that you get more screen space, but then it can
01:35:13 ◼ ► become a smaller size to fit in your pocket or something. So setting aside the Duo itself,
01:35:22 ◼ ► that's kind of what I'm getting at, that like, are we ever going to get to the place where
01:35:28 ◼ ► a foldable thing replaces the thing that we're all using and now calling a phone, or is this only of
01:35:34 ◼ ► interest in sort of the laptop space? And we can go on a little while, but to briefly touch on its
01:35:39 ◼ ► larger sibling, the Neo, it is a much more understandable device. It's basically laptop-sized.
01:35:47 ◼ ► It's the same thing. Like, if you didn't see anything next to it for scale, you'd be like,
01:35:52 ◼ ► "Is that the Duo or the Neo?" They look basically identical. They may even be proportionally
01:35:56 ◼ ► identical, but one is much larger. One is like a laptop size. If you can imagine a modern MacBook,
01:36:02 ◼ ► where instead of a screen and the thing with a keyboard and trackpad, it's just got a screen
01:36:06 ◼ ► and a screen. We talked about this when the Touch Bar came out as the natural evolution of the
01:36:10 ◼ ► screen slowly expanding to fill your laptop. There was another laptop that actually was released
01:36:14 ◼ ► recently from maybe Asus or something. It's pronounced "ass-es," John. Yeah. It has like a
01:36:21 ◼ ► half a screen. Like, if you can imagine a Touch Bar that's four inches high. Have you seen that one?
01:36:26 ◼ ► I think it was HP, actually. But yeah, I know what you mean. Yeah. Like, the expansion of screens on
01:36:31 ◼ ► there makes sense for all sorts of reasons, and it doesn't make sense for all sorts of reasons.
01:36:35 ◼ ► The natural extension of that is, like, just make it all screen. Then it's infinitely configurable.
01:36:39 ◼ ► You could use it as a one larger screen with a big seam down the middle if you want. You can use it
01:36:43 ◼ ► with the screen that's on the bottom as like a to draw on, and then you can look at stuff. There's
01:36:47 ◼ ► all sorts of things you can do. They've added into the mix here. And if you want a hardware keyboard,
01:36:52 ◼ ► you can just lay the hardware keyboard like a little kind of smart keyboard. Just lay it on
01:36:55 ◼ ► top of the screen. And I'm sure there's some smarts that lets it know that the keyboard is laying
01:36:59 ◼ ► there and scrunching stuff up. It's much more interesting because no one has notions that
01:37:06 ◼ ► they're going to be carrying this in their pocket or whipping it open and closing it. It's just a
01:37:10 ◼ ► very interesting laptop. And seeing people ship the sort of one and a half screen laptops,
01:37:16 ◼ ► this is exactly what we need people to do. Try things out and see if there is an arrangement
01:37:23 ◼ ► that is actually good. The half screen laptop sounds like such a mongrel thing, but looking
01:37:29 ◼ ► at it and looking at the various applications, it occurred to me that there's lots of...
01:37:34 ◼ ► I found it appealing. I found it appealing in some ways, but then I also looked at it and said,
01:37:40 ◼ ► "Yeah, but if you can do that, you should just make it all screen." And Microsoft is not the
01:37:47 ◼ ► two screen laptops. But then you've got the keyboard problem, right? Because no one wants
01:37:53 ◼ ► to type on an onscreen keyboard, so you can have an external keyboard. And then what are you even
01:37:56 ◼ ► doing, right? Finding the form factor that everyone agrees is pretty much okay is very difficult.
01:38:05 ◼ ► We've been with the same laptop form factor basically since the PowerBook that introduced
01:38:12 ◼ ► the form that we currently know as laptop, which is a screen, clamshell, a keyboard that's shoved
01:38:18 ◼ ► back up against the screen and a pointing device right in front of you in the middle. That is the
01:38:21 ◼ ► PowerBook design. Before that, laptops didn't look like that. After that, all laptops looked
01:38:25 ◼ ► like that. And we've been stuck with it/enjoying it for many, many decades now. Is double screen
01:38:32 ◼ ► the thing that's going to replace it? I mean, maybe, especially if Apple keeps going the way
01:38:35 ◼ ► it's going with its keyboards, especially if you can slap a hardware keyboard on top of it.
01:38:45 ◼ ► You know, I wonder, do we need to replace this? You said what's going to be the next form factor
01:38:52 ◼ ► or the decided on form factor for laptops? And I think we've already had it. I think we solved
01:38:57 ◼ ► this problem. We solved the laptop problem. We like laptops. I think the market has proven over
01:39:01 ◼ ► and over again that in this era that we're seemingly in for the last five to seven years of
01:39:06 ◼ ► just massive throwing anything at the wall to see what sticks, how many screens can we put on things,
01:39:12 ◼ ► how big or small can we make them. There's been this massive era of experimentation that's been
01:39:17 ◼ ► going on. But I think overall, I think what the market has actually shown us is no, actually,
01:39:22 ◼ ► laptops are great. We like laptops like the way we've had them. Just keep evolving them slowly,
01:39:28 ◼ ► not trying to make radical changes like getting rid of the entire keyboard and trackpad section.
01:39:32 ◼ ► It turns out laptops are great. And so are tablets and so are phones. And they need not necessarily
01:39:40 ◼ ► converge. We are fine having multiple devices. And I think for all the years that, you mentioned
01:39:50 ◼ ► the PowerBook form factor, and you're right, that did define things for a long time. But the
01:39:55 ◼ ► PowerBook form factor was not that much of a massive step over what came before it. It was a
01:40:03 ◼ ► gradual evolution into this is what laptops are. And the whole industry kind of consolidated on
01:40:10 ◼ ► this one thing of making everything look like Apple's laptops. And everything was fine for a
01:40:15 ◼ ► long time. And once we figured that out, we didn't keep changing everything. We just refined it and
01:40:22 ◼ ► made it better until the last few years we started making it worse. But up until the last few years,
01:40:27 ◼ ► we just kept making it better. And I feel like we're so, as an industry, we're so innovation
01:40:36 ◼ ► happy right now in the hardware area, in the form factor area, that we're just doing a bunch of
01:40:40 ◼ ► stuff and just throwing a bunch of spaghetti at the wall, seeing what sticks. But I feel like
01:40:45 ◼ ► everyone is so quick to try to replicate the success of the smartphone and then the smaller
01:40:50 ◼ ► success of the tablet. We're so quick to try to replicate that everywhere we can because there's
01:40:55 ◼ ► a lot of money to be made if you succeed at it, that we're reinventing things that don't need to
01:41:00 ◼ ► be reinvented. The laptop is great. The laptop is fine. And there are still ways we can make the
01:41:08 ◼ ► laptop form factor better without dramatically throwing a whole bunch of stuff out the window,
01:41:14 ◼ ► like the way these dual screen things do, by getting rid of the keyboard and all that stuff.
01:41:17 ◼ ► I don't think we need this. I don't think the world needs this. I honestly don't. And I think
01:41:23 ◼ ► if the world decides it needs this, it's going to be similar to how when tablets came out,
01:41:29 ◼ ► a lot of people who were very innovation happy and future obsessed, a lot of people said,
01:41:35 ◼ ► "Oh, well, laptops are dead. Computers are dead. Everyone's going to be using tablets only."
01:41:39 ◼ ► And what actually happened is laptops and computers are fine. Some people use tablets only,
01:41:46 ◼ ► but most people use tablets and laptops. And I think that might happen. This to me looks
01:41:53 ◼ ► more like a fancy tablet than a fancy laptop. Well, to that point, though, I feel like part of
01:42:03 ◼ ► the evolution of the laptop is the current what you're calling tablets as a separate thing. Like
01:42:07 ◼ ► the Surface, to name just one thing, but even just all of our friends who we know who basically have
01:42:12 ◼ ► a weird floppy laptop, right? And they're choosing to do that, despite the fact that there are
01:42:22 ◼ ► I think the Surface design, the reason you see Microsoft Surface around, and the reason you see
01:42:27 ◼ ► people using iPads with keyboards is because that is a potential new iteration of the laptop. It's
01:42:34 ◼ ► a different decision than to screen. It's basically screening keyboard as separate things where
01:42:38 ◼ ► sometimes you just use the screen and the keyboard as an accessory that you can arrange. It's a
01:42:43 ◼ ► different set of trade-offs, but setting aside the operating system, I don't view that as a tablet
01:42:49 ◼ ► and laptop. I view that as a redefinition of the sort of a new form factor for the same job as a
01:42:57 ◼ ► laptop with a different set of trade-offs, and it's one that actually has gained some traction.
01:43:02 ◼ ► Obviously, it hasn't replaced laptops, and I would argue that it's not better than laptops,
01:43:06 ◼ ► but it's a thing that people use. It's not a curiosity. You're not shocked if you go on a
01:43:11 ◼ ► plane and you see someone take out this big floppy thing, whether it's a Surface or an iPad, and start
01:43:16 ◼ ► typing on it. That has some traction, which makes me think it has some utility, and some of the
01:43:22 ◼ ► things that the utility has are also shared by these dual screen things. Then you have more
01:43:27 ◼ ► flexibility. You can use it just as a tablet. You can have flexibility about what you use for the
01:43:32 ◼ ► other space and how you arrange it and whether it's a hinge or a stand. Surface has both of them.
01:43:38 ◼ ► I think there's something there, and I'm lumping that in with laptops, despite the fact that we
01:43:43 ◼ ► all just call them tablets in the Apple world. They run an entirely different operating system.
01:43:46 ◼ ► It's a whole big thing. Really, it's a thing that I can put in front of me where I can type and look
01:43:56 ◼ ► I don't see as many people using a dual screen. Maybe it's because they don't like the keyboards,
01:44:01 ◼ ► but I feel like the jury's still out on that. The point about the laptops, the PowerBook being an
01:44:09 ◼ ► evolution of what came before it, it's in some ways, yeah, because it's an unfolding thing with
01:44:15 ◼ ► the keyboard and the screen, right? But the diversity of things with keyboards and screens,
01:44:24 ◼ ► was not a clamshell. Many laptops were not clamshell. So even just clamshell, as in where
01:44:29 ◼ ► there's two halves that are the same size with the hinge at the back, that wasn't a given for a long
01:44:33 ◼ ► time in the PC industry. Let alone the whole PowerBook design, which is shoving the keyboard
01:44:39 ◼ ► back and having a pointing device. Because there was no pointing devices, there was just DOS. The
01:44:42 ◼ ► entire bottom of the laptops was keyboard, and the top part was screen. There was nothing else.
01:44:47 ◼ ► And then when pointing devices came, the PC laptops had a thing where they shoved a track
01:44:52 ◼ ► pad on the side of it. It could have been that track balls back then, if you shove a track
01:44:57 ◼ ► ball on the side, sorry, a track ball on the side of it. It could have been the case that a pointing
01:45:01 ◼ ► device along the right or left edge could have been the thing that goes, "Hey, I don't have a
01:45:05 ◼ ► hand coming out of the middle of my belly button. I don't know about you." So why is the track pad
01:45:10 ◼ ► in the center middle of the thing? How is that the right call versus not having a pointing device on
01:45:14 ◼ ► the left or the right side? It seems obvious in retrospect, like all they did was move the keyboard
01:45:19 ◼ ► back and put a pointing device in the middle. But for whatever reason, that was the arrangement of
01:45:24 ◼ ► things that stuck. And unfortunately, getting back to the experimentation, whether or not something
01:45:29 ◼ ► succeeds in the market doesn't necessarily reflect whether it's a good idea. These Microsoft things
01:45:33 ◼ ► could fail for the same reasons that Marco outlined in the beginning, because people may not
01:45:37 ◼ ► be interested because they run Windows. There's all sorts of like platform ecosystem, marketing,
01:45:42 ◼ ► reputation, historical reasons why a good product can fail and a bad product can succeed.
01:45:47 ◼ ► I think the PowerBook design is a reasonable compromise and is better than having a pointing
01:45:54 ◼ ► device left and right. But there is something to be said with the fact that it was Apple and Apple
01:45:58 ◼ ► has a reputation and lots of people copy Apple because they're good at designing, yada yada.
01:46:01 ◼ ► In the same way that there are many Microsoft products and designs that if Apple did them,
01:46:05 ◼ ► we would be going Gaga over them, but we're not going Gaga over them because they run Windows and
01:46:09 ◼ ► we don't like Windows. And Microsoft is not in the power position in the PC industry and Microsoft
01:46:14 ◼ ► is not one of the big players in the phone world. And you know, a million reasons why these things
01:46:19 ◼ ► might not succeed to the degree that they "should" or "would" and under ideal conditions.
01:46:25 ◼ ► But someone needs to try these things out. If only so, people with a more viable platform can
01:46:42 ◼ ► Now the show is over, they didn't even mean to begin, cause it was accidental, oh it was accidental.
01:46:53 ◼ ► John didn't do any research, Marco and Casey wouldn't let him, cause it was accidental, oh it was accidental.
01:47:04 ◼ ► And you can find the show notes at ATP.FM and if you're into Twitter, you can follow them at C-A-S-E-Y-L-I-S-S, so that's Casey List M-A-R-C-O-A-R-M,
01:47:22 ◼ ► N-T-M-A-R-C-O-A-R-M-N-S-I-R-A-C-U-S-A-C-R-A-C-U-S-A-C-R-A-C-U-S-A, it's accidental, accidental. They didn't mean to, accidental, accidental.
01:47:48 ◼ ► They finally are going to stop corrupting my navigation bar whenever you touch the search bar.
01:47:52 ◼ ► So can you describe either for me, an iOS developer, or preferably for those who are not iOS developers, what was the behavior that was broken?
01:48:03 ◼ ► Alright, so, anyone who's still on 13.1, you will see this. Open up Overcast, on the root screen is a search box.
01:48:11 ◼ ► Tap the search box, then tap outside of the search box. Then tap something like a playlist or anything. Then tap back.
01:48:19 ◼ ► You will see in the navigation bar, at the top of the screen, all of the items start accumulating.
01:48:25 ◼ ► They no longer transition, they also no longer work, and that bug will persist until the app is force quit and restarted.
01:48:34 ◼ ► Yeah, I'm getting many bug reports a day now that iOS 13.1 is out from people running this.
01:48:55 ◼ ► Not even the first build of the bug fix update introduced this horrible navigation bar bug, and it isn't just Overcast, there's a couple other apps.
01:49:05 ◼ ► Basically, you will suffer from this bug if you use UI Search Controller in a certain combination of conditions, where it's not auto hiding and everything.
01:49:16 ◼ ► UI Search Controller, this is the thing for non-developers out there, UI Search Controller is the API that Apple has provided for a number of years now.
01:49:25 ◼ ► Before that, I think it was called UI Search Bar Controller, or something, there was something variant before that.
01:49:32 ◼ ► It's the thing where, when you have a navigation bar at the top of an app, you can integrate a search box into that, in the way that when you tap it, a cancel button appears.
01:49:43 ◼ ► Sometimes it moves up and replaces the contents of the bar with the search box only, so any title or icons that were there before, it slides up and replaces it.
01:49:53 ◼ ► As you scroll, that box might go away or it might not, these are all configuration options.
01:49:59 ◼ ► And then as you type and you get results, it overlays what was on the rest of the screen with a list of results that you can then tap and get into.
01:50:11 ◼ ► This class has been notoriously buggy in iOS, which is why they keep having to rewrite it.
01:50:21 ◼ ► In iOS 13, the rewrite actually did fix a lot of previous bugs and actually has overall been pretty good, except for this one little thing.
01:50:31 ◼ ► But there have been so many bugs related to this during the beta cycle, so many weird layout problems and other issues with UI Search Controller,
01:50:43 ◼ ► and little gaps appearing between the search results and the background and stuff like that, all sorts of weird stuff we had to deal with this summer with this class because they rewrote the whole thing.
01:50:53 ◼ ► And then for them to throw in that middle finger at me at the very last minute with iOS 13.1 and then ship it to all their customers, oh, God, it's been a hard week.
01:51:07 ◼ ► And my solution to this was, well, I guess I can rewrite the screen to not use a search box anymore.
01:51:23 ◼ ► I also don't like how it looks in my current prototype three-column mode for iPad and future Mac app.
01:51:31 ◼ ► So I want to get rid of the search box, but that's a much bigger job, and it's going to take time.
01:52:00 ◼ ► Because I am getting so many bug reports every single day from this stupid navigation bar corruption bug.
01:52:09 ◼ ► I hope they actually keep this fixed, and I hope they actually ship this very, very soon to customers.
01:52:19 ◼ ► I was going to ask if your radar had been updated or if they just silently fixed it, but you didn't even file one.
01:52:27 ◼ ► When I do get over myself and file radars, most of my bugs remain open with no response forever.
01:52:38 ◼ ► You know, we get the people who email us and say, "Hey, just checking in. Just wanted to see if you got my past, you know, that spam PR."
01:52:47 ◼ ► So I have a radar for if I, on my wife's computer, if I do customize toolbar in Safari to customize the toolbar,
01:53:01 ◼ ► So I filed that as a bug, and we did some, you know, a syst diagnosed and other stuff, and people had some theories.
01:53:14 ◼ ► I was afraid, like, some update would come and it would just go away and I wouldn't be able to reproduce it anymore,
01:53:23 ◼ ► In fact, I wanted to check to actually customize my toolbar, and I totally forgot about it.
01:53:31 ◼ ► So I went back to the bug and I said, "Just so you know, this still happens on insert new versions of all the software that I'm running."
01:53:54 ◼ ► No, that's the thing. Like, when they do mark it as duplicate, it used to be that you got no response ever after that.
01:53:59 ◼ ► At least in, sometime recently they changed it so that you can see the status of the bug that it's duplicated to.
01:54:06 ◼ ► You can't see the title or anything about it, but you can see whether the bug is closed or not.
01:54:26 ◼ ► I file a bunch of AirPlay 2 bugs because I want to support AirPlay 2 and still can't really do it very well.
01:54:36 ◼ ► I file bugs about WatchKit and the only time I ever got anything that resulted from it was when I also made a blog post about it.
01:54:44 ◼ ► And even then, I wouldn't get responses to the bugs. Just those things might be fixed the next year.
01:55:27 ◼ ► But I would love to actually know how to fix it without totally removing every single one of my preferences from Safari.